From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Jan 1 01:00:59 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 08:00:59 +0100 Subject: Real Old School Programming References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <003201c60dde$3b974cf0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> <001201c60dfc$8a09de20$2101a8c0@finans><200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> <43B6F1CF.80204@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <002401c60ea1$1eb7e6d0$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Jim Leonard" > I have to ask all of the oldtimers here "fortunate" enough to have > worked with punch-card systems: Even with rose-colored nostalgia > glasses at full intensity, would you ever in your life wish for a time > you could go *back* to *punch cards*? To be honest, yes, with reservations. Things were not so hectic in those days. In Denmark, it was a tight knit community, everybody knew everybody else, and that gave a large network if you wanted to change jobs. You could also see what you were doing, and correct things on the fly. I was in commerce and statistics, so things might be different for scientific shops and/or others Nico From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 1 01:27:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 23:27:57 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200512312327570126.04AC3623@10.0.0.252> On 12/31/2005 at 9:45 PM Doc Shipley wrote: > Does anyone have install images I could "evaluate"? Xenix 286 was >apparenly (judging by some BIOS parameters) a supported OS on this Compaq. I've got the full set of SCO Xenix System V disks for the Wyse PCs, but I've installed it on other systems. The documentation makes references to both the 286 and 386 versions of Xenix, however--and I don't know if this was a "both in one set" package or some other deal. Short of pulling out an 286 AT and trying an installation, is there any way to tell? The install diskettes were all 96 tpi 5.25", but I've since transferred them to 3.5" DS2D. I should probably archive them to CD-ROM. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jan 1 01:31:14 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 02:31:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <43B6F1CF.80204@oldskool.org> References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <003201c60dde$3b974cf0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> <001201c60dfc$8a09de20$2101a8c0@finans> <200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> <43B6F1CF.80204@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200601010733.CAA16809@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I have to ask all of the oldtimers here "fortunate" enough to have > worked with punch-card systems: Even with rose-colored nostalgia > glasses at full intensity, would you ever in your life wish for a > time you could go *back* to *punch cards*? Like Nico, I might, if enough other things roll back as well. Certainly I wouldn't want to go back to punched cards without rolling back any of the many other changes since I worked with them, which I suspect is what you were really talking about. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jan 1 01:47:38 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 01:47:38 -0600 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <200512312327570126.04AC3623@10.0.0.252> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <200512312327570126.04AC3623@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43B7891A.9010309@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/31/2005 at 9:45 PM Doc Shipley wrote: > > >> Does anyone have install images I could "evaluate"? Xenix 286 was >>apparenly (judging by some BIOS parameters) a supported OS on this Compaq. > > > I've got the full set of SCO Xenix System V disks for the Wyse PCs, but > I've installed it on other systems. The documentation makes references to > both the 286 and 386 versions of Xenix, however--and I don't know if this > was a "both in one set" package or some other deal. Short of pulling out > an 286 AT and trying an installation, is there any way to tell? The > install diskettes were all 96 tpi 5.25", but I've since transferred them to > 3.5" DS2D. I should probably archive them to CD-ROM. Well, instead of pulling out your 286, you could send me disk images (3.5" DS2D would be perfect but 5.25" is fine) and I'll try 'em out. :) Doc From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sun Jan 1 03:34:54 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 09:34:54 -0000 Subject: More PDP-11 problems References: Message-ID: <000a01c60eb6$9fe72440$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Charles, are the boot ROMs DEC ones? I had similar problems with my 11/23+, and found that the boot ROMs were OEM ones, and had completly different settings. I have the options of network boot or RL01. All the other settings are for application specific diagnostics. You may find different versions of DEC boot ROMs have different switch settings - all the switches do is set a start address in ROM that is interpreted by the microcode. Jim. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Jan 1 03:06:02 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 09:06:02 +0000 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 31 Dec 2005 15:17:12 PST." <200512311517120124.02EAEA10@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601010906.JAA18790@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Chuck Guzis" said: > On 12/31/2005 at 2:46 PM Fred Cisin wrote: > > >HARUMPH. > >I slash my zeroes. Always have; always will. > >35/40 years ago, I knew a couple of people who slashed their 'Oh's. > >25 years ago, I inherited books, bookcases, etc. when the last one > >of them died. Is there still anybody alive who does it that way? > > Maybe there are some anarchists hiding out there. Slashing zero was > definitely the IBM way and, AFAIK, the same for all other major > manufacturers (just check some of the programming language manuals on > bitsavers). "One way to indicate the difference is to write the letter as [O with a slash] and the number as 0; provided the data preparation operator knows that this is the rule we are adopting. .... The conventions used above are the ones we shall use in this book." "Computer Education in Schools" ICL CES, 1978 That's what we were expected to do in work (we used an ICL 1904), but for my own use I slashed the zeros as that's what I'd always done with Morse code. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sun Jan 1 05:08:51 2006 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 12:08:51 +0100 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <20060101110851.GA1298@lug-owl.de> On Sat, 2005-12-31 10:54:51 -0700, e.stiebler wrote: > Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > >I'd like > >to really understand how bit-slice CPUs do work to form something like > >a VAX CPU. > > If you have a VAX730, you have already everything you need ;-) Unfortunately, I don't have one, but I surely would take it if I was offered one :-) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Jan 1 06:17:22 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 12:17:22 GMT Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <43B6DFA1.4090109@gjcp.net> References: <200512310902.JAA12099@citadel.metropolis.local> <7e34f2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <43B6DD2B.7080706@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6DFA1.4090109@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <1faa63e24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <43B6DFA1.4090109 at gjcp.net> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > My gripe is modern displays and printers print 1 ( one ) and l ( > > lowercase L ) the same. > > They look pretty distinct to me (X11, font is Vera Sans Mono). By > "modern displays" what exactly do you mean? Try viewing the same thing in Vera Serif or Times. 1 and l are quite similar, and on a bad printout could be easily mistaken. I've noticed the same thing on my RiscPC with the default font the "Zap" text editor uses. I've been using "Proggy Clear Slashed Zero" from for Konsole (KDE's Xterm clone) and GVIM. Word of warning: the PCF-format (X11) versions on the site appear to be corrupt. Use the TrueType or PS version, but make sure you've recompiled FreeType with the bytecode interpreter enabled. ProggyTTSZ is unreadable without it - FT's auto-hinting system completely mangles the font. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... Exam is a four-letter word for torture... From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Jan 1 06:20:50 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 12:20:50 GMT Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <43B6F28B.4050901@oldskool.org> References: <200512310902.JAA12099@citadel.metropolis.local> <7e34f2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <43B6DD2B.7080706@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6DFA1.4090109@gjcp.net> <43B6E2B7.9090200@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6F28B.4050901@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4efb63e24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <43B6F28B.4050901 at oldskool.org> Jim Leonard wrote: > About a month ago, there was a thread in this group about finding an > alternative "system" monospaced font -- was a concensus ever reached? > Any download links, anyone? The Proggy series are quite nice - . There's also ProFont - . I'm using "Proggy Clean Slashed Zero" at the moment. It looks pretty nice in an Xterm (well, Konsole) and in GVIM. Also means I can get a more than one 80x24 Xterm on screen at a time without the windows overlapping :) -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... On the other hand..you have five different fingers From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Jan 1 06:31:49 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 12:31:49 +0000 Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <1faa63e24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <200512310902.JAA12099@citadel.metropolis.local> <7e34f2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <43B6DD2B.7080706@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6DFA1.4090109@gjcp.net> <1faa63e24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <43B7CBB5.3010405@gjcp.net> Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message <43B6DFA1.4090109 at gjcp.net> > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > >>>My gripe is modern displays and printers print 1 ( one ) and l ( >>>lowercase L ) the same. >> >>They look pretty distinct to me (X11, font is Vera Sans Mono). By >>"modern displays" what exactly do you mean? > > > Try viewing the same thing in Vera Serif or Times. 1 and l are quite > similar, and on a bad printout could be easily mistaken. I've noticed the > same thing on my RiscPC with the default font the "Zap" text editor uses. But they are proportional fonts. Using them for programming would be pretty odd. It's a good question, though - why *do* we use fixed-width fonts for programming? Tradition? Or does it just make things easier somehow? > I've been using "Proggy Clear Slashed Zero" from > for Konsole (KDE's Xterm clone) and GVIM. Word > of warning: the PCF-format (X11) versions on the site appear to be corrupt. > Use the TrueType or PS version, but make sure you've recompiled FreeType with > the bytecode interpreter enabled. ProggyTTSZ is unreadable without it - FT's > auto-hinting system completely mangles the font. They do look pretty good. Gordon. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Jan 1 06:28:02 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 12:28:02 GMT Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <200512311427580067.02BDD6C6@10.0.0.252> References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> <200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> <200512311427580067.02BDD6C6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <1ca464e24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <200512311427580067.02BDD6C6 at 10.0.0.252> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > Feh! This was OUR idea of ROM: > > http://www.jlw.com/retro/CY70-6K-panel.tif Ye flipping gods! And I thought the toggle switch panel on my COSMAC Elf was bad... -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... ASCII and ye shall receive. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Jan 1 06:38:26 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 12:38:26 GMT Subject: Home written editors (was Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I feel the same way about hardware, which is probably why I feel nauseous > when I look at the Apple ][ (and peripherals) schematics. That thing is one gigantic hack after another. It's great how Woz managed to get the chip count down (especially on the Disk II), but I still consider the Apple II to be a horrendous hack. Not to the level of a Sinclair ZX81, but still a hack. I'd still like to get an Apple II to play with though. They look like pretty fun machines to play with, especially on the I/O side. > On the other > hand I love elegantly designed hardware (which may also be complicated > and ingenious) like the HP9100. I kinda like the Atari vector generators. From a technical standpoint, they aren't that special, but the way they were implemented was pretty neat. I've stuffed a DVG into a CPLD, but I'm still working on actually building the PCB board and testing the thing... 208-pin PQFP chips are NOT fun to design PCBs for. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... Happiness: a perfume you can't give away without getting some yourself. From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun Jan 1 09:33:20 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 10:33:20 -0500 Subject: More than 2 FDDs on a PC In-Reply-To: <200601011506.k01F6dIq016576@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002f01c60ee8$bb5fd820$6601a8c0@barry> These all used standard cables. They have two separate 34-pin connectors for two standard floppy cables (with the twist), two drives on each of the two separate cables. However, 3 of the 5 boards that I had are gone, sold to readers of this list. I do still have two left. One 4-floppy only (8-bit ISA), one 4-floppy plus IDE (requires a 16-bit ISA slot). ************* > If anyone wants one, I'll sell them for $12 each plus $6 > shipping. Important for me would be a cable to go with these. My understanding was the twisted cable worked only for two-drive chains and for more than 2, you needed to either strap the drives individually or make a very specific cable. John A. From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Sun Jan 1 09:44:51 2006 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 16:44:51 +0100 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B7F8F3.40001@ais.fraunhofer.de> Tony Duell wrote: >>The sequencer was an AMD 2910, which, of curse, is from the same family >>as the 2901. But the 2910 is not IMHO a true 'slice' in that it can't be >>extended to bits. It's a 12 bit microcode sequencer (and all PERQs >>apart from the 1 had 16K of control store, so they had to extend the >> >> In this case one would take the 2909 which is a bit-slice-style sequencer. >>sequener address by a circuit kmown to all PERQ fanatics as the '2 bit >> >> Holger From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Sun Jan 1 10:12:15 2006 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 17:12:15 +0100 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B7FF5F.9050704@ais.fraunhofer.de> Tony Duell wrote: >>It was the text for a digital design class I took while an >>undergraduate EE at UDel. Unfortunately, the class was so poorly run >>that very few people ever got to do any designing or playing with >>actual circuits. Personally I consider UDel's EE major with the >>"Digital option" at the time (I graduated 1986) to be a miserable >>failure in teaching people how to actually *build* anything. I still >> >> > >I am told it's getting ever worse. EE, CS, and similar courses in UK >universities may well involve not building anything. It's all done on >simulators (cue ARD's rant about the misuse of simulators. Note I said >'misuse'. They are undoubtedly useful when used correctly, which is not >as a replacment for building real hardware in an undergraduate course). > > This is going the same way as the change from assembler to high-level languages with compilers: in this case it is gate-level or at least register-transfer-level design to VHDL/Verilog "programming" and feeding the stuff into a "silicon compiler". This was estimatable already when I worked on algorithms for circuit testing for my PhD in 1992. Most researchers were still thinking in terms of gates and flipflops, thereby neglecting that the testing problem is NP-complete for pure combinational circuits or even worse (!) for FSMs (this is *not* in the welldefined NP class), and this was even intractable for circuits with some hundreds to some thousand gates provided the structure was sufficiently irregular. On the other hand, almost noone worked on improving the situation that people would turn to "programming" a circuit - it is no longer obvious what a silicon compiler will produce out of synthesizable VHDL or Verilog, so testing, validating or even verifying the correct function is no longer really possible. Silicon compilers have subtle bugs like every piece of code, and checking that the produced result is really what the designer wanted is as tedious as reading and understanding the assembler output of the gcc for the Linux kernel - noone does this. It appears to me that a lot of enginnering has now turned into some high-level-theology: one just has to *believe* that the result is correct - if not: hopefully find someone else to blame - of course: mistakes in VHDL source code also exist. University teachers have a lot work to do to teach students proper use of tools and correctly typing in sample code - it will divert from the pure science to then even solder that circuit, or solder at least any circuit: likewise one nowadays does no longer bootstrap a computer from a frontpanel by entering some dozens of octal numbers. Just trust the scientific voodoo factor: we know it can be done - no need to prove this in practice. Well: until the engineers enter the job world and find out that they need exactly such low-level debugging skills, provided they still find one of these rare jobs where they still have to produce some real hardware. Holger From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Jan 1 10:13:04 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 16:13:04 GMT Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <43B7CBB5.3010405@gjcp.net> References: <200512310902.JAA12099@citadel.metropolis.local> <7e34f2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <43B6DD2B.7080706@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6DFA1.4090109@gjcp.net> <1faa63e24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <43B7CBB5.3010405@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <653e79e24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <43B7CBB5.3010405 at gjcp.net> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > It's a good question, though - why *do* we use fixed-width fonts for > programming? Tradition? Or does it just make things easier somehow? I suspect it's because fixed-width fonts make it easier to indent source code consistently. Assuming you're using spaces instead of tabs that is. [ Proggy fonts ] > They do look pretty good. Smaller than Bitstream Vera Sans Mono, and just as easy to read, too. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook Do not adjust your mind - it's a reality malfunction. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Jan 1 10:30:42 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 08:30:42 -0800 Subject: EPROM labels In-Reply-To: <00ad01c608b8$d5621f20$6401a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <00ad01c608b8$d5621f20$6401a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <200601010830420176.04AAA78B@192.168.42.129> Hi, Rich, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 24-Dec-05 at 13:35 Richard A. Cini wrote: >All: > > Just a quickie.what would be a suitable replacement for the opaque >labels that one would stick over EPROM windows? I was going to use >electrical tape but it's so sticky and white mailing lables leave glue >residue. If you can find one of the older Brady label printers on greed-bay, such as the LS2000 or similar, there are very suitable labels available through any Brady distributor (Graybar Electric is a good example) for EPROMs and other electronic usage. Another workable alternative is one of the generic thermal-transfer printers, such as the Brother or Casio units widely sold by Office Despot. I've found that the half-inch black-on-white tape works great on standard-size EPROMs, while the quarter-inch tape is suitable for skinnier ICs such as PROMs or PALs. Happy hunting. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Jan 1 10:47:04 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 17:47:04 +0100 Subject: Real Old School Programming References: <200512310902.JAA12099@citadel.metropolis.local><7e34f2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <43B6DD2B.7080706@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6DFA1.4090109@gjcp.net> <1faa63e24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com><43B7CBB5.3010405@gjcp.net> <653e79e24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <001c01c60ef2$ff6d5e70$2101a8c0@finans> > > It's a good question, though - why *do* we use fixed-width fonts for > > programming? Tradition? Or does it just make things easier somehow? > > I suspect it's because fixed-width fonts make it easier to indent source code > consistently. Assuming you're using spaces instead of tabs that is. > My guess is that we in "ye olde days" used chain printers and other printers with fixed character width, so we could make 80/80 listings which looked sensible. For an example of how this looks/looked on RPG forms (the ones I talked about earlier), you can look at the bottom of http://www.farumdata.dk/uk/xxval.asp (View Script File as Text) There were different forms in my time (H(eader) F(ile) I(nput) E(xtension) C(alculation) and O(utput), each with preprinted headers. Writing on standard forms was a big no-no the places I graced with my presence :-) Just imagine writing a RPG II program with e.g. the Operand field 1 column off :-) I still think RPG is a good language for commercial use, as a lot of things happen behind your back, such as file opening, reading, deblocking, decimal point handling, edit masks, etc. Nico From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jan 1 10:52:55 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 16:52:55 GMT Subject: More PDP-11 problems In-Reply-To: Charles "More PDP-11 problems" (Dec 31, 19:32) References: Message-ID: <10601011652.ZM21578@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Dec 31 2005, 19:32, Charles wrote: > As I posted previously, the 26.667 MHz master clock oscillator had > failed on the KDF11-BA cpu (probably from rough handling). For now > I have a 30.000 MHz module from the junkbox. Looks like I spoke > too soon (I had the J17-18 always-ODT jumper installed so seeing > the ODT prompt was not a surprise). I don't know if this minimal > overclocking is causing my current problems though: 10% is not minimal. It might be enough to make a difference. > I have found two substantially different tables showing how to set > the CPU DIPswitches. KDF11-B Maintenance Manual (MM), and KDF11-BA > Users Manual (UM). The UM says I should have switches 1-8 set to: > > 1-On: CPU diagnostic > 2-On: Memory diagnostic > 3-Off: No DECNet boot > 4-Off: Turn-key boot (sel. sw 5-8) > 5-Off: > 6-Off: > 7-On: RL01/02 boot > 8-Off: > > I don't have the MM handy, it was .TIFF pages, but for the same > functions only switches 5 and 7 were On. The switches are just mapped to a register that the boot ROMs -- or indeed any other code -- can read. It's the Configuration and Display Register (CDR) at 777524. It's nothing to do with microcode, nor is it anything that directly affects the hardware. The effect of the switches depends entirely on how they're interpreted by the bootstrap code, and the description you list above is correct for the original BDV11 bootstrap and for the early PDP-11/23plus bootstrap (which was almost the same). It's not correct for the microPDP-11/23 bootstraps. The early microPDP-11/23 (KDF11-BE) bootstrap used switch 1-8 ON to set up for ANSI VDU console terminal, and 1-7 ON to enable the quick memory diagnostic. Usually 1-1 to 1-4 would also be on and 1-5 and 1-6 off, to select the MSCP aiutoboot. All off would inhibit autoboot. All six on would loop the self-test. There were 25 defined boot settings, and 37 reserved or unused. If you tell us what ROMs you have on the board we can tell what firmware version you have. > with the RUN light off, state LED's=1111. Manual says 17 octal > means the CPU is not in power-up mode 2, but J18-19 is correctly > installed. I don't get any memory test messages or identifying > text either, just the ODT prompt. > > According to the UM page 2-5, it looks like the internal boot > address of 173000 is being generated correctly, but if BHALT L is > being (incorrectly) asserted, the result is entry to ODT and a > halt. Which matches what I see happening. > > If I set the front panel HALT switch and flip RESTART, the CPU > immediately halts with state LED's=0001 which is correct. So it > doesn't look like the HALT line is shorted to ground. > > Also, I can examine memory using ODT at the boot EPROM address of > 773000 and read the following: > > 112737 > 000016 > 177524 > 000005 > 012700 > 000340 > 106400 > 012706 > 177524... > > I don't have a PDP-11 disassembler handy but that looks like some > kind of executable code, hopefully the bootstrap. Looks like bootstrap setup code. The first few words are > 112737 MOVB #16, @#0177524 ; set low 4 bits of display reg > 000016 ; this turns the LEDS off > 177524 > 000005 RESET ; resets the bus and the MMU > 012700 MOV #340, R0 ; set bits 5-7, which are interrupt > 000340 ; priority in the PSW > 106400 MTPS R0 ; set Processor Status Word > 012706 MOV #177524, R6 ; prob. to read the config register > 177524 Looks like an 11/23plus bootstrap, rather than, say, a microPDP-11/23 boot. > When I examine memory at 173000 it's all 1's (177777) but I can > deposit and read data correctly into locations there. Shouldn't > the bootstrap program be copying its code there? No copying involved. When you're using ODT, you use 18-bit addressing (at least on this CPU), and 173000 then is simply the 8th bank of memory (bank 7, counting from zero). 773000 is the I/O page, where the bootstrap lives, and apparewntly you realised both those facts, but perhaps didn't realise that when the CPU is running, any reference to bank 7 (160000-177777) asserts the BBS7 (Bus Bank Select 7) signal so when a program accesses 173000, it actually gets the boot ROM. That's hardwired, in fact; it doesn't even use the MMU. In effect, accessing the highest-addressable bank always gets the I/O page (this is a slight oversimplification, because it depends on devices recognising the BBS7 signal, but it will do for this discussion). > Again, if the > HALT line is being set for some reason, then the copy operation > can't take place... is that where I should be looking or am I > following a false trail? False trail. Start by double-checking all the jumpers, especially J16/17/18/19 (you probably want J18-19 and nothing on 16 or 17). Check even the things that should never have changed, eg that the test jumpers are all in the correct places (J6-7, J8-9, J20-21, J34-35 not 33, J26-27 not 25). Check there's nothing on J15, that J22/23/24 are set for whatever type of ROM/EPROM you have, etc. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ms at vaxcluster.de Sun Jan 1 11:13:47 2006 From: ms at vaxcluster.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 18:13:47 +0100 Subject: Anyone tried NetBSD 3 VAX yet? In-Reply-To: <7dccec37ee4f4bdba6160d7cad4348b4@valleyimplants.com> References: <7dccec37ee4f4bdba6160d7cad4348b4@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <43B80DCB.2040008@vaxcluster.de> Me, on VAX4000/500, 4000/200, VS4000-90, MV3500, and MV3100 No problems at all. I did not do a fresh install, though. I updated existing 2.0 installations. A happy new year to everyone..... ms compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > Has anyone tried the new NetBSD 3.0 on VAX yet? the 2.x series had a broken install (among other things), and took a bit to get running on my setup (3176), just wondering if v3/VAX had any big bugs > > > > -- Michael Schneider email: ms at vaxcluster.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de/ "Man muss nicht immer alles glauben was stimmt" From charlesmorris at direcway.com Sun Jan 1 11:21:49 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 11:21:49 -0600 Subject: Operator error, as usual (PDP-11 problems) Message-ID: <733gr1t35ms9ubiabgpdp9tjqrr2k15t1t@4ax.com> I found the problem with my non-booting PDP-11. I feel incredibly stupid so I thought I would share my findings and hope some of you have done something equally dumb ;) This morning I traced the BHALT L line to the KDF11-BA's edge finger (AP1) and confirmed that it was indeed low all the time, as I had earlier posted. Measured at the front panel it was still low. So I flipped the HALT switch to the other (up) position and sure enough the line went high. I toggled RESTART and the RUN light came on. I heard a "bump" (nonprinting character) on the teletype console but nothing else printed and then ODT came up at 173546. Another look at the switch settings and turned off the turnkey mode in favor of console dialog mode. Still just a nonprint character at first, but after waiting a few more seconds, sure enough "TESTING MEMORY" printed out. It took several minutes to test the big Clearpoint board (I had miscounted the chips, it's the maximum 4 MBytes/2 MWord) and then printed the correct "2044. KW" followed by "START?" which is exactly what a KDF11-BA is supposed to do! :) :) So the defective clock oscillator which seems to be working fine with a 30 MHz replacement was problem 1. Incorrect switch settings on two different versions of KDF11B manuals was #2. But the most recent session of hair-pulling and teeth-gnashing was completely my fault. (In case you haven't figured it out yet, I had been setting the HALT switch in the halted position!!!) RTFM I guess :P Now to fix the FAULT in the RL02 or RLV12 so I can boot from it! A few seconds after entering "Y" to the "START?" prompt, ODT enters at 173526 which is most likely because the controller is not responding properly. Of course I don't know what's on the pack and it may not be bootable... one step at a time. -Charles From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Jan 1 11:35:21 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 17:35:21 +0000 Subject: Operator error, as usual (PDP-11 problems) In-Reply-To: <733gr1t35ms9ubiabgpdp9tjqrr2k15t1t@4ax.com> References: <733gr1t35ms9ubiabgpdp9tjqrr2k15t1t@4ax.com> Message-ID: <43B812D9.4040007@gjcp.net> Charles wrote: > with a 30 MHz replacement was problem 1. Incorrect switch settings > on two different versions of KDF11B manuals was #2. But the most An incorrectly labelled diagram of the KDJ11-A status LEDs led me a merry dance. What I thought was a duff SLU was in fact a broken clock crystal on the memory board. Gordon. From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Jan 1 11:53:45 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 18:53:45 +0100 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43B7FF5F.9050704@ais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <8DD729D8-7AEF-11DA-A390-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> > > It appears to me that a lot of enginnering has now turned into some > high-level-theology: one just has to *believe* that the result is > correct - if not: hopefully find someone else to blame - of course: > mistakes in VHDL source code also exist. I can attest to this : an obscure error in a tiny voiceband DSP I once made took months of benchtime to debug. The error was traced back to a typo in my VHDL code. The simulation testbench + firmware, as always, did not trigger the condition.... Jos Dreesen From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Jan 1 12:00:04 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 13:00:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <1ca464e24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> <200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> <200512311427580067.02BDD6C6@10.0.0.252> <1ca464e24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: In message <200512311427580067.02BDD6C6 at 10.0.0.252> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > Feh! This was OUR idea of ROM: > > http://www.jlw.com/retro/CY70-6K-panel.tif Here's a picture of the real thing, from the 6600 in the Computer History Museum: http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/DeadStart6600.jpg Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jan 1 12:04:12 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 13:04:12 -0500 Subject: EPROM labels In-Reply-To: <200601010830420176.04AAA78B@192.168.42.129> References: <00ad01c608b8$d5621f20$6401a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <200601010830420176.04AAA78B@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <20060101130412.7a71c04a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 08:30:42 -0800 "Bruce Lane" wrote: > Hi, Rich, > > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** > > On 24-Dec-05 at 13:35 Richard A. Cini wrote: > > >All: > > > > Just a quickie.what would be a suitable replacement for the opaque > >labels that one would stick over EPROM windows? I was going to use > >electrical tape but it's so sticky and white mailing lables leave glue > >residue. > > If you can find one of the older Brady label printers on greed-bay, such as the LS2000 or similar, there are very suitable labels available through any Brady distributor (Graybar Electric is a good example) for EPROMs and other electronic usage. > You don't need the Brady printer to make use of their excellent labels. Just order the minimum quantity of Brady label stock they will sell you and use a sharpie. From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Jan 1 12:23:02 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 19:23:02 +0100 Subject: Looking for some PDP11 bits...(Europe) Message-ID: To be precise, i'd like to acquire : - a pdp11/23 frontbezel (BA23). - a rl02 terminator - one rl02 cable - a bit of qbus memory. - boot proms for pdp11/34 rl02 combo. I also have a RX02 outer shell to give away. ( Turns a rackmounted RX02 into a deskmounted RX02 ) Also an empty BA23 with powersupply is avaliable. Location : Switzerland / Holland / Belgium. Jos Dreesen From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sun Jan 1 12:51:33 2006 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 18:51:33 +0000 Subject: anyone have a line on a batch of serial terminals? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/31/05, Richard wrote: > I'm looking for about 20-40 units of serial terminal, with 20 being > the bare minimum that I need for the project. Realistically, spares > will be needed, so more than 20 units are preferred. Yepyep. I have quantity 23 (I think) plus maybe a couple more for spares "Freedom 101" (? - from memory) amber-screened dumb terminals. They're VT220 clones (according to Phil Pemberton, who bought one, they're not 100% but *extremely* close). All are complete with keyboard. Only two problems from your perspective: 1) They're 240V AC 2) They're in England If you're interested, let me know. You can have 'em cheap :) Ed. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 1 13:06:17 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 11:06:17 -0800 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> <200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> <200512311427580067.02BDD6C6@10.0.0.252> <1ca464e24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <200601011106170168.072B8E2A@10.0.0.252> On 1/1/2006 at 1:00 PM Mike Loewen wrote: >http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/DeadStart6600.jpg Is that a mock-up reproduction, Mike? It's been a long time since I've seen a 6000 without a CEJ/MEJ switch! It's kind of hard to believe that there would be any left around without one. Let's see if I can still read the code: 0000 7512 DCN 12 0001 7712 4000 FNC 4000,12 0003 7712 0001 FNC 1,12 0005 7712 1100 FNC 1100,12 0007 2000 0160 LDC 160 0011 7412 ACN 12 0012 7112 0015 IAM 0015,12 Which looks sort of reasonable except for the 224 character record length on what's being read. Do you know what system this was set up to deadstart? IIRC, we used some of the 6683 "don't care" bits in the FNC's to set indicators for the deadstart program. Cheers, Chuck > > >Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jan 1 13:15:26 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 13:15:26 -0600 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <20051231232327.02e8d97b.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <20051231232327.02e8d97b.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43B82A4E.9060200@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > Xenix 286 does sound like a better choice. Also don't forget > Coherent. I am pretty sure it runs on a 286 but will require > more memory. Find some Intel Above Boards to add memory. The last versions of Coherent were in two versions, one for 286 and one for 386. Expanded memory boards that add LIM EMS only will *not* work, it needs to be "native" memory. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jan 1 13:19:28 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 14:19:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: <200601010604.BAA29162@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: > Yes...at least in part because they tend to need a pile of other > things, like capacitors and inductors, which are difficult to stick > onto ICs. I'm not convinced there's anything wrong with using several > dozen transistors on a chip die instead of a couple of transistors and > a half-dozen miscellanous discrete passives. Anyone that has even a shred of experience on a factory floor would take the more complex IC, maybe even more pricey, over even a small pile of discretes, SMT or thruhole. There is MUCH MORE to good engineering than what goes on the schematic or breadboard. In fact, production issues are often more important than the circuit itself. What are these production issues? Things as obvious as the extra work the board stuffers have to do and extra inventory/warehousing costs, to increased failures from QA errors to increased health costs for the workers. These issues can kill even the best design, if not handled properly. I am curious - who has experience with hardware production issues on this list? The real, walkin' the factory floor, experience? I suspect that it is very thin. William Donzelli USR Integration/QA aw288 at osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 1 12:17:24 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 18:17:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: <200601010604.BAA29162@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Dec 31, 5 11:56:55 pm Message-ID: > > > I find it a great pity that now that transistors have become so cheap > > (particularly when in ICs), most people don't care how many are used, > > and most modern designs use far too many of them. > > "Too many" in what sense? :) To many in the sense that the job can be done with _significant;y_ less. I am really moaning about the so-called designers who want to use an embedded PC-type-thing with megs of RAM for a problem that could be solved with a little hardwired logic (say about 50 transsitors). > > > It's amazing what could be done with 2 or 3 of the things, but those > > clever designs have been mostly forgotten. > > Yes...at least in part because they tend to need a pile of other > things, like capacitors and inductors, which are difficult to stick That is true. I was thinking of perhaps the most elegant design I've ever had the good fortune to work on -- the HP9100. The 2 main ROMs in that are inductive (core-on-a-rop, that multi-layer PCB ROM), which could not be made in a chip. And to make ROMs with similar capacity in a chip would use a fair numebr of transistors. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 1 11:59:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 17:59:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <43B74A78.6050001@jcwren.com> from "J.C. Wren" at Dec 31, 5 10:20:24 pm Message-ID: > > Tony, could the 1802 be in LOAD mode (CLEAR low, WAIT low)? You'll > get DMA-IN cycles in that mode. No, CLEAR and WAIT are both high. However, I did some more testing this afternoon. The SC1 = 1 pulse occurs during TPA and SC0 is low at that time. The thing is duing an interrupt acknowledge cycle. And a bit more trsting showed that there were pulses on the INT/ input, not going low enough to be dectected as a sloid low by my logic analyser, but low enough to trigger the 1802. And those came from an RC circuit that's working correctly. The idea is to generate an interrupt about 0.1s after the last one, thus giving some kind of heartbeat clock. This is doing the right thing. After doing some more tests, I have come to the following conclusions : 1) The CPU is working fine 2) All the small glue logic chips are fine 3) The CPU is executing instructions from ROM, cna read/write RAM, etc So my current theories as to the likely fault are either bit-rot in the EPROM (but a dump of it looks reasoanbly sane, there is readable text for the setup messages, etc, so it's not totally dead) or garbage in the RAM that needs to be initialised out. In either case I need to find somebody who has one of these machines (It's a Microwriter MW4/10). The ROM is socketed, but it's a 2564 which has rahter different pinout to a 2764, and some programmers can't handle it. Mine can, and I even have a few blanks in the junk box. But my first though is that it's just an initialisation problem. I do need to find a user manual... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 1 12:02:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 18:02:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Dec 31, 5 09:45:38 pm Message-ID: > > I'm looking for something Unix-ey to run on this 80286 system. It > has 640KB RAM, and uses prorietary memory modules, so even Minix is > going to be an extremely tight fit. Mostly out of curiosity, I'd like > to try Xenix on it. I was told a month or so back that Minix 1.5.10 is now available for downloading. I ran that on an XT (8088) with 640K RAM and it didn't seem that tight. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jan 1 13:36:19 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 12:36:19 -0700 Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <43B7CBB5.3010405@gjcp.net> References: <200512310902.JAA12099@citadel.metropolis.local> <7e34f2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <43B6DD2B.7080706@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6DFA1.4090109@gjcp.net> <1faa63e24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <43B7CBB5.3010405@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43B82F33.9040505@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > But they are proportional fonts. Using them for programming would be > pretty odd. > > It's a good question, though - why *do* we use fixed-width fonts for > programming? Tradition? Or does it just make things easier somehow? Well it makes tabs and spaceing better for output. For programing I use a 80x24 full screen DOS box ... I can read the display. The tiny pop up windows are a real bitch for me to read, I don't like the C compiler or CPLD software for that reasion. The only thing that works half well is cut and paste from the dos box to the windows gui. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jan 1 13:51:18 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 12:51:18 -0700 Subject: Home written editors (was Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B832B6.4000700@jetnet.ab.ca> Philip Pemberton wrote: >I kinda like the Atari vector generators. From a technical standpoint, they >aren't that special, but the way they were implemented was pretty neat. I've >stuffed a DVG into a CPLD, but I'm still working on actually building the PCB >board and testing the thing... > > > I did always like vector displays but they I suspect will be rare in the future as you have no large display devices anymore. >208-pin PQFP chips are NOT fun to design PCBs for. > > I am having fun with the 84 plcc chips I am using -- the free PCB program has no 84 pin plcc socket footprints so I hope I get the homebrew footprint right. PS. I am using win-cupl so I can understand the logic expressions. I could shoot the designers of vhdl and verlog -- I just can read that at all From wacarder at earthlink.net Sun Jan 1 13:53:50 2006 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 14:53:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: New PDP-11 pictures on my web site Message-ID: <7498834.1136145230757.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Since I haven't updated my site in a while, I decided to get out my digital camera yesterday and take some pictures. I've added quite a few pictures of DEC PDP-11 systems and peripherals I've acquired in the past year. When I get time, I'll add more technical info, but for now there are pictures and a small blurb of mostly non-tech info about each item. Take a look. Leave a message on my message board if you are so inclined. The new stuff is under the "PDP-11 Collection" link on the left hand nav on my site at: http://www.woffordwitch.com Happy New Year and Happy Classic Computing! Ashley From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 1 13:56:27 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 11:56:27 -0800 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601011156270507.07597D4D@10.0.0.252> On 1/1/2006 at 2:19 PM William Donzelli wrote: >Anyone that has even a shred of experience on a factory floor would take >the more complex IC, maybe even more pricey, over even a small pile of >discretes, SMT or thruhole. Maybe, but consider the AT&T business model--there was a lot more to it than production floor issues. AT&T leased all of its equipment to customers, so it retained perpetual ownership. That really skews the ROI curve--just about any reasonable thing you can do to extend product life (30 year old 2500 series desk sets in working condition are not an anomaly). At the time of their manufacture, AT&T had good reason to suspect that transistors may represent a particular vulnerability in a design. Note also, that the transistor did not affect the telephone's ability to receive calls or the customer's ability to flash the operator in an emergency. AT&T footed the bill for repairs on their equipment. Anything that can be done to improve reliability pays huge dividends. Passive components like capacitors and inductors, if propery designed and specified are almost bulletproof. And AT&T had a guaranteed market in the millions of units. Finally, AT&T was tightly regulated. They were allowed a certain maximum profit margin--it really didn't matter if a few dollars could be saved here or there. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 1 14:01:51 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 12:01:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <002401c60ea1$1eb7e6d0$2101a8c0@finans> References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <003201c60dde$3b974cf0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> <001201c60dfc$8a09de20$2101a8c0@finans><200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> <43B6F1CF.80204@oldskool.org> <002401c60ea1$1eb7e6d0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <20060101120033.Q32492@shell.lmi.net> > From: "Jim Leonard" > > I have to ask all of the oldtimers here "fortunate" enough to have > > worked with punch-card systems: Even with rose-colored nostalgia > > glasses at full intensity, would you ever in your life wish for a time > > you could go *back* to *punch cards*? On Sun, 1 Jan 2006, Nico de Jong wrote: > To be honest, yes, with reservations. > Things were not so hectic in those days. Go back to the sixties??? Where do I sign up? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jan 1 14:12:45 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 15:12:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: <200601011156270507.07597D4D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > Maybe, but consider the AT&T business model--there was a lot more to it > than production floor issues. AT&T and IBM, and a few others that leased equipment, were VERY much an exception, and yes, the maintenance issues made a difference. For nearly every other company, this was lower on the importance list. For example, for every keypunch IBM leased, Zenith probably made 1000 TVs. For every AT&T/WE PBX there were probably 1000 Commodore 64s. About the only exception I can think of is the humble desk telephone set (and as some have pointed out, they are amazing balances of clever engineering, cost cutting, and maintainability). Anyway, the AT&T/IBM leased market model practically died years ago. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Jan 1 14:12:33 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 15:12:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <200601011106170168.072B8E2A@10.0.0.252> References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> <200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> <200512311427580067.02BDD6C6@10.0.0.252> <1ca464e24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <200601011106170168.072B8E2A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jan 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/1/2006 at 1:00 PM Mike Loewen wrote: > >> http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/DeadStart6600.jpg > > Is that a mock-up reproduction, Mike? It's been a long time since I've > seen a 6000 without a CEJ/MEJ switch! It's kind of hard to believe that > there would be any left around without one. It's the real deal, as far as I know. I know next to nothing about CDC systems. The sign says it's a model 6600, serial number 1. > Which looks sort of reasonable except for the 224 character record length > on what's being read. Do you know what system this was set up to > deadstart? Again, no clue. I just happened to take some shots of it at a visit to the Computer History Museum, this summer. The "CDC 6400/6500/6600 Computer Systems Reference Manual" on bitsavers has a slightly different picture of the dead start panel on page 6-3, again without the CEJ/MEJ switch: http://bitsavers.vt100.net/cdc/6x00/60100000D_6600refMan_Feb67.pdf Here are a some more pics: http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/CDC6600-1.jpg http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/CDC6600-2.jpg http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/CDC6600-3.jpg http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/CDC6600-4.jpg http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/CDC6600-5.jpg http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/CDC6600-6.jpg Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 1 14:19:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 12:19:52 -0800 Subject: OT-sortof: Replacing incandescent panel lights Message-ID: <200601011219520327.076EECE1@10.0.0.252> While not directly germane to vintage computers, I can see that this might have some real interest for those restoring old displays. I've got an old (1990) 120w-per-channel receiver in which I've just replaced the hybrid power amp module--I think I can expect another 15 years or so of life out of it. What bothers me is that some of the incandescent 12vdc back-of-panel lamps are starting to go. They're soldered onto small PCBs and are the small 25 ma variety. They illuminate the back of small LCD displays that have an orange filter on them, so the color is basically that of an NE2 neon. I was thinking of replacing the lamps with high brightness LEDs and current limiting resistors--since the bulbs are paired up, I'd put the 2 LEDs in series with a single resistor. Now for the questions: 1. Has anyone tried to do this? 2. Will LED's have sufficient brightness and dispersion to substitute for incandescents in this application? 3. What would the best LED to use? Cheers, Chuck From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Jan 1 14:21:52 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 15:21:52 -0500 Subject: Subject: AMD bit-slice machines References: <200512310347.jBV3kvHl090838@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43B60334.1010506@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <002001c60f11$01d2ca10$0100a8c0@screamer> Apollo made a 68030-like engine for the DN660 out of bit slices. I've heard this was because Motorolla could not deliver the needed speed parts fast enough to meet Apollo's needs. (I have a complete DN660 and spare board set available if someone is interested) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 1 14:29:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 12:29:19 -0800 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> On 1/1/2006 at 3:12 PM William Donzelli wrote: >Anyway, the AT&T/IBM leased market model practically died years ago. Yes, just so--AT&T in whatever form they exist today, would never consider marketing a "designed to last 50 years" desk telephone. Better to market a "designed to last 6 months" set, like cellphones. And this relates to any sort of retrospection. Would I want to go back to using punched cards? Not if that was the only thing that changed. Would I sacrifice my terminal in exchange for lifetime employment with benefits and pension, but with relatively crude health care? That's a harder question! It reminds me of those people who feel nostalgia for old radios or hula hoops and Nehru jackets. The last two are just ridiculous in today's contexts and the first will still receive only talk radio and gangsta rap, no matter what you use for A and B batteries. Cheers, Chuck From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sun Jan 1 14:56:24 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 14:56:24 -0600 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> <200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> <200512311427580067.02BDD6C6@10.0.0.252> <1ca464e24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <200601011106170168.072B8E2A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: I seem to remember a CDC 3300. was there such a thing? It was about 1961, I think. I think we programed it in COBAL and then later in Fortran. On 1/1/06, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Sun, 1 Jan 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 1/1/2006 at 1:00 PM Mike Loewen wrote: > > > >> http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/DeadStart6600.jpg > > > > Is that a mock-up reproduction, Mike? It's been a long time since I've > > seen a 6000 without a CEJ/MEJ switch! It's kind of hard to believe that > > there would be any left around without one. > > It's the real deal, as far as I know. I know next to nothing about CDC > systems. The sign says it's a model 6600, serial number 1. > > > Which looks sort of reasonable except for the 224 character record length > > on what's being read. Do you know what system this was set up to > > deadstart? > > Again, no clue. I just happened to take some shots of it at a visit to > the Computer History Museum, this summer. The "CDC 6400/6500/6600 > Computer Systems Reference Manual" on bitsavers has a slightly different > picture of the dead start panel on page 6-3, again without the CEJ/MEJ > switch: > > http://bitsavers.vt100.net/cdc/6x00/60100000D_6600refMan_Feb67.pdf > > > Here are a some more pics: > > http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/CDC6600-1.jpg > http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/CDC6600-2.jpg > http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/CDC6600-3.jpg > http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/CDC6600-4.jpg > http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/CDC6600-5.jpg > http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/CDC6600-6.jpg > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jan 1 15:02:52 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 14:02:52 -0700 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43B8437C.3010200@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >It reminds me of those people who feel nostalgia for old radios or hula >hoops and Nehru jackets. The last two are just ridiculous in today's >contexts and the first will still receive only talk radio and gangsta rap, >no matter what you use for A and B batteries. > > > Well See 'Dave' about his Xtal Sets, you can do a lot with No batteries. http://www.schmarder.com/radios/index.htm "The Birmingham group will be hosting the 2006 DX contests. 1) The next Crystal Set DX contest will be held January 13-23, 2006. 2) The One-Active-Device (1AD) DX Contest will be held the second and third weekends in February. The dates are February 10-13 and 17-20, 2005. " From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Jan 1 15:23:59 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 22:23:59 +0100 Subject: Looking for some PDP11 bits...(Europe) Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2270@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hello Jos, well, the holidays are over, gotto go to work tomorrow. Why I am writing this? Sorry to post to the list, but I only seem to have your e-mail address at work. Anyway, I have an RL02 terminator, and a cable, but, and that brings me to the first line, I can not test the cable. I hoped to find time to work on the not-working RL drives of my 11/34, but ... Happen to be in the neighborhood? The cable is a bit heavy to ship to Switzerland. If you are not in a hurry, I keep them for you. - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Jos Dreesen Verzonden: zo 01-01-2006 19:23 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Looking for some PDP11 bits...(Europe) To be precise, i'd like to acquire : - a pdp11/23 frontbezel (BA23). - a rl02 terminator - one rl02 cable - a bit of qbus memory. - boot proms for pdp11/34 rl02 combo. I also have a RX02 outer shell to give away. ( Turns a rackmounted RX02 into a deskmounted RX02 ) Also an empty BA23 with powersupply is avaliable. Location : Switzerland / Holland / Belgium. Jos Dreesen This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 1 16:15:23 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 14:15:23 -0800 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> <200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> <200512311427580067.02BDD6C6@10.0.0.252> <1ca464e24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <200601011106170168.072B8E2A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601011415230684.07D8B07E@10.0.0.252> On 1/1/2006 at 2:56 PM Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: >I seem to remember a CDC 3300. was there such a thing? It was about >1961, I think. I think we programed it in COBAL and then later in >Fortran. There were 2 3000-series families, one known as "lower 3000" (3100/3300/3500) and the other as "upper 3000". (3600/3800) I never had any direct experience with them, but I recall that the lower 3000 were 24 bit and the upper 3000 were 48-bit machines and had the "Forbin Project" blue-glass styling. Most of the CDC 6000 unit record equipment (printers, card readers, etc.) was designed for a 3000-series peripheral interface and hooked to a 6683 channel adapter box. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 1 16:33:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 14:33:13 -0800 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> <200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> <200512311427580067.02BDD6C6@10.0.0.252> <1ca464e24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <200601011106170168.072B8E2A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601011433130452.07E90346@10.0.0.252> On 1/1/2006 at 3:12 PM Mike Loewen wrote: > It's the real deal, as far as I know. I know next to nothing about >CDC >systems. The sign says it's a model 6600, serial number 1. I recall a CE friend once telling me that he'd worked on that particular system and that the divide unit had been modified considerably such that it didn't deliver the same results as any of the other 6600's. It might be that SN 1 is so old that it wasn't possible to put CEJ into it without rebuilding the whole darned thing. The DS program in the CDC reference manual makes no sense from an IPL standpoint on a stock 6600: 0001 7505 DCN 5 0002 7705 2020 FNC 2020,5 0004 1437 LDN 37 0005 7405 ACN 5 0006 7305 0011 OAM 11,5 0010 0300 UJN 0 (hang) 0011 4005 0012 0011 0013 0000 0014 0000 Since, at deadstart, PP5 would be active and waiting for input on channel 5, the code makes no sense. My best guess is that the photographer shot a photo of a lashup with 4 PPs or less used for debugging the I/O interface at Chippewa Falls. Cheers, Chuck From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Jan 1 16:42:35 2006 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 23:42:35 +0100 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <8DD729D8-7AEF-11DA-A390-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> References: <43B7FF5F.9050704@ais.fraunhofer.de> <8DD729D8-7AEF-11DA-A390-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: I think this one was amd2900 based : CCI Tahoe, also called CCI6/32, Sperry 7000 or Harris HCX/7. 32 bits, very much like a Vax. -- Stephane Paris, France. http://berryer.info From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 1 16:48:55 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 14:48:55 -0800 Subject: OT-sortof: Replacing incandescent panel lights References: <200601011219520327.076EECE1@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43B85C56.2C5FAE5B@cs.ubc.ca> I repaired two units of 'higher-end' audio equipment for a friend a while back in which all the incandescents backlighting the LCD displays had burnt out and the displays could no longer be read. I used white LEDs, brighness was sufficient but not quite as bright as original. Dispersion was a bit of a problem. In this instance, the trick I found was to aim the LEDs towards the display at oblique angles (such that their beams crossed over), e.g. with two LEDs an inch or two behind the display, aim the one on the left towards the right side of the display, the one on the right towards the left side, so you get two overlapping ovals at the display instead of two independant circles. (Edge-lit displays or those with some other form of internal diffuser may be another issue.) The overall result was not quite perfect but certainly adequate to keep the equipment usable. More LEDs would have helped, but for white LEDs in small quantity, the cost was adding up quickly. I got by with two or three LEDs for each display of roughly (IIRC) 2-to-3 inches by 3/4 inch. (general note: at 12V once can string more than two in series.) If the incandescent lamps were fed with AC it may be that one should add some rectifiers. Even though LEDs are diodes I don't believe they are rated for, or tolerate, application of reverse voltage of any significant magnitude. (I know I checked into/experimented with this for another reason a long time ago. I forget what the exact outcome was but IIRC, AC was bad.) Chuck Guzis wrote: > > While not directly germane to vintage computers, I can see that this might > have some real interest for those restoring old displays. > > I've got an old (1990) 120w-per-channel receiver in which I've just > replaced the hybrid power amp module--I think I can expect another 15 years > or so of life out of it. What bothers me is that some of the incandescent > 12vdc back-of-panel lamps are starting to go. > > They're soldered onto small PCBs and are the small 25 ma variety. They > illuminate the back of small LCD displays that have an orange filter on > them, so the color is basically that of an NE2 neon. > > I was thinking of replacing the lamps with high brightness LEDs and current > limiting resistors--since the bulbs are paired up, I'd put the 2 LEDs in > series with a single resistor. > > Now for the questions: > > 1. Has anyone tried to do this? > > 2. Will LED's have sufficient brightness and dispersion to substitute for > incandescents in this application? > > 3. What would the best LED to use? From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sun Jan 1 17:05:26 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 17:05:26 -0600 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <200601011415230684.07D8B07E@10.0.0.252> References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> <200512311427580067.02BDD6C6@10.0.0.252> <1ca464e24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <200601011106170168.072B8E2A@10.0.0.252> <200601011415230684.07D8B07E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: That sounds like the one we used. After I left there I went to the University of Texas where we had the Nova, serial #1. That was, I guess, the first "desktop". We really thought it was something...for its time it was. Many years later we were asked by the manufacturer to return it to them for historical purposes and they gave us a nice new computer for it. On 1/1/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/1/2006 at 2:56 PM Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > >I seem to remember a CDC 3300. was there such a thing? It was about > >1961, I think. I think we programed it in COBAL and then later in > >Fortran. > > There were 2 3000-series families, one known as "lower 3000" > (3100/3300/3500) and the other as "upper 3000". (3600/3800) I never had > any direct experience with them, but I recall that the lower 3000 were 24 > bit and the upper 3000 were 48-bit machines and had the "Forbin Project" > blue-glass styling. Most of the CDC 6000 unit record equipment (printers, > card readers, etc.) was designed for a 3000-series peripheral interface and > hooked to a 6683 channel adapter box. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Jan 1 17:16:33 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 23:16:33 GMT Subject: Home written editors (was Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <43B832B6.4000700@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <43B832B6.4000700@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In message <43B832B6.4000700 at jetnet.ab.ca> woodelf wrote: > I did always like vector displays but they I suspect will be rare in the > future > as you have no large display devices anymore. Which is why I built an X/Y display out of a DG7/32. That's going to be pretty interesting to play with... I suspect the graphics are going to be "just a bit" small... Ah, well, it's still a fun project :) > I am having fun with the 84 plcc chips I am using -- the free PCB > program has no > 84 pin plcc socket footprints so I hope I get the homebrew footprint right. Yikes.. What PCB software are you using? > PS. I am using win-cupl so I can understand the logic expressions. > I could shoot the designers of vhdl and verlog -- I just can read that > at all Verilog isn't too hard if you already know C. VHDL is Pure Evil (tm)... -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... I'm no stranger, just a friend you haven't met... From stevew at ka6s.com Sun Jan 1 17:25:42 2006 From: stevew at ka6s.com (Steven Wilson) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 15:25:42 -0800 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <1136157942.21336.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Chuck Wrote: >I've got the full set of SCO Xenix System V disks for the Wyse PCs, but >I've installed it on other systems. The documentation makes references to >both the 286 and 386 versions of Xenix, however--and I don't know if this >was a "both in one set" package or some other deal. Short of pulling out >an 286 AT and trying an installation, is there any way to tell? The install diskettes were all 96 tpi 5.25", but I've since transferred them to >3.5" DS2D. I should probably archive them to CD-ROM. >Cheers, >Chuck Chuck - I'm curious. There was an independent, i.e. not SCO, version of Unix that Wyse shipped in the late 80's/early 90's for their 7000/9000 systems. It IS labeled as SCO Xenix then? For that matter - does anyone have any info or actually OWN a Wyse 9000 (an up to 8 processor tower machine with SCSI I/O based on the Sequent bus.)???? Steve Wilson From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun Jan 1 17:28:39 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 18:28:39 -0500 Subject: OT-sortof: Replacing incandescent panel lights In-Reply-To: <200601011219520327.076EECE1@10.0.0.252> References: <200601011219520327.076EECE1@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601011828.39279.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 01 January 2006 03:19 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > While not directly germane to vintage computers, I can see that this might > have some real interest for those restoring old displays. > > I've got an old (1990) 120w-per-channel receiver in which I've just > replaced the hybrid power amp module--I think I can expect another 15 years > or so of life out of it. What bothers me is that some of the incandescent > 12vdc back-of-panel lamps are starting to go. > > They're soldered onto small PCBs and are the small 25 ma variety. They > illuminate the back of small LCD displays that have an orange filter on > them, so the color is basically that of an NE2 neon. > > I was thinking of replacing the lamps with high brightness LEDs and current > limiting resistors--since the bulbs are paired up, I'd put the 2 LEDs in > series with a single resistor. > > Now for the questions: > > 1. Has anyone tried to do this? > > 2. Will LED's have sufficient brightness and dispersion to substitute for > incandescents in this application? > > 3. What would the best LED to use? I carry the yahoo "amateur-repairs" list here, and that topic comes up fairly often -- apparently folks are doing it, all right, but in those cases mostly for meters, and wanting white light are using white LEDs. Orange filter? Use orange ones... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun Jan 1 17:31:45 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 18:31:45 -0500 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 01 January 2006 03:29 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It reminds me of those people who feel nostalgia for old radios or hula > hoops and Nehru jackets. The last two are just ridiculous in today's > contexts and the first will still receive only talk radio and gangsta rap, > no matter what you use for A and B batteries. I used to work on old radios for a guy, he'd re-do the cabinets and I'd re-do the innards. Only criterion he had for what he picked up was that the cabinet had to _not_ be made out of plastic. One in particular that I remember well was not only AM-FM, but had some shortwave bands as well. The stuff I picked up in the trailer I was living in at the time was pretty amazing, considering that I tested it inside the trailer and used some handy hunk of wire for an antenna... Notstalgia? Not really, I don't miss tube stuff, even though that's where things were when I started working with electronics. What I miss is quality, and the good sound that tube stuff had, you don't see it in later gear, not at all. Nor the quality, either. (Aside: I wonder why somebody hasn't come up with some kind of a filter to get that sound? They'd make a mint!) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jan 1 17:37:28 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 18:37:28 -0500 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1136157942.21336.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1136157942.21336.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20060101183728.4db7789d.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 15:25:42 -0800 Steven Wilson wrote: > Chuck Wrote: > >I've got the full set of SCO Xenix System V disks for the Wyse PCs, but > >I've installed it on other systems. The documentation makes references > to > >both the 286 and 386 versions of Xenix, however--and I don't know if > this > >was a "both in one set" package or some other deal. Short of pulling > out > >an 286 AT and trying an installation, is there any way to tell? The > install diskettes were all 96 tpi 5.25", but I've since transferred them > to > >3.5" DS2D. I should probably archive them to CD-ROM. > > >Cheers, > >Chuck > > Chuck - I'm curious. There was an independent, i.e. not SCO, version of > Unix that Wyse shipped in the late 80's/early 90's for their 7000/9000 > systems. It IS labeled as SCO Xenix then? > Xenix was a Microsoft product before it was handed off to SCO. I know there was an IBM OEM version of Xenix 286, in the same tan slipcovers as other IBM OSes of the time for their PC Line. Is it possible there is a Wyse OEM version as well? > For that matter - does anyone have any info or actually OWN a Wyse 9000 > (an up to 8 processor tower machine with SCSI I/O based on the Sequent > bus.)???? > > Steve Wilson > From ken at seefried.com Sun Jan 1 18:33:43 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 19:33:43 -0500 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <200601012329.k01NTpgl025535@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601012329.k01NTpgl025535@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20060102003343.4958.qmail@seefried.com> Since we are proposing alternatives... There is a port of Venix (SVR2-ish Unix variant targeted for RT use) for the 8086 and 80286 PC-type machines. I reeeeally vaugly recall the 8086 version ran in 512KB of memory. It was a pretty decent system for the time; Xenix makes me itch. Where you would find Venix/86 or Venix/286 these days, I have no idea. Someone has Venix for the DEC Pro on-line, so anything is possible. If you aren't tied to Unix-like systems, earlier versions of OS/2 did very useful things on i286 machines. Ken From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 1 18:46:04 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 16:46:04 -0800 Subject: (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20060101183728.4db7789d.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <1136157942.21336.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060101183728.4db7789d.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200601011646040131.0862A193@10.0.0.252> On 1/1/2006 at 6:37 PM Scott Stevens wrote: >> Chuck - I'm curious. There was an independent, i.e. not SCO, version of >> Unix that Wyse shipped in the late 80's/early 90's for their 7000/9000 >> systems. It IS labeled as SCO Xenix then? Yes ineedy. The binders all carry the legend: WYSE SCO XENIX System V From alanp at snowmoose.com Sun Jan 1 20:09:45 2006 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 18:09:45 -0800 Subject: Burroughs L-series In-Reply-To: <200601020141.k021fmPp027588@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601020141.k021fmPp027588@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <83073cc2a02c5eb09222a10776b36493@snowmoose.com> > From: M H Stein > > A couple of years ago I met a couple of people on here that had > Burroughs L-series computers, but lost track of them in the meantime. > (I think there's an L5000 at Bletchley, but they probably don't need > or want anything). > > I'm about to toss out the last remnants of my L stuff (programming > manuals, memory cards, tape drive, TD-700 display, etc.) > > If there's anyone out there still interested, send me an email off-list > before they go into landfill. > What are the Burroughs L-series computers? I started working for Burroughs just before the Sperry merger and I guess I missed the L-series. I collect B1000 stuff (or, I would collect it if I could find anything) and acquired a bunch of B20 systems a couple of years ago, so I collect them now. Other than a museum that asked me if I ever found a B1000, I haven't found any other collectors of Burroughs stuff. alan From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sun Jan 1 20:14:17 2006 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 13:14:17 +1100 Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <43B6F1CF.80204@oldskool.org> References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <003201c60dde$3b974cf0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> <001201c60dfc$8a09de20$2101a8c0@finans> <200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> <43B6F1CF.80204@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 01/01/2006, at 8:02 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: > I have to ask all of the oldtimers here "fortunate" enough to have > worked with punch-card systems: Even with rose-colored nostalgia > glasses at full intensity, would you ever in your life wish for a > time you could go *back* to *punch cards*? Well it's a new year so I guess I'm getting a little older, but an "oldtimer"? No, I certainly don't want to go back to punch cards and one (sometimes two if you were lucky) runs per day. On the other hand, it still influences how I program compared to the "younger" generation. I remember watching with amazement about 15 years ago a friend of mine programming using Turbo C where he just spun in a loop of "compile, fix one error, compile" rather than trying to fix all the syntax problems at once. I suspect (fear?) that the code was written the same way. This compares with the program I wrote at about the same time (simple symbolic algebra system with 2D output) that was designed, coded and debugged on paper (whilst holidaying down at the beach). After the holiday I typed it all in and it had two minor bugs. I suspect these days I'd be very tempted to take a laptop and do top-down stepwise refinement - whether this would be faster is open to discussion..... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sun Jan 1 20:19:45 2006 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 13:19:45 +1100 Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <20051231212213.2B5C1BA4809@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200512310902.JAA12099@citadel.metropolis.local> <7e34f2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <43B6DD2B.7080706@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6DFA1.4090109@gjcp.net> <43B6E2B7.9090200@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6F28B.4050901@oldskool.org> <20051231212213.2B5C1BA4809@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <50D19623-F8D6-408D-BF4E-19CBC899ECDE@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 01/01/2006, at 8:22 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Well, on the first machine I had that used a Courier-type font, you > typed the lower-case-letter-L for the numeral 1 and you typed > an uppercase-letter-O for the numeral 0. So they were not only > hard to distinguish, they were in fact identical... My portable typewriter is like that. To tie in with the original thread I can't recall whether the Selectric with the Courier ball used the same characters for 1 and l? I can't check as I got rid of mine a few years ago (having made quite a bit of money typing technical documents in the days before word processing was affordable). For my own work I had access to a DECsystem-10, a word processing package known as Cicero and a IBM 2741 running at 134.7 baud which was the start of the slippery slope away from typewriters. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sun Jan 1 20:23:01 2006 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 13:23:01 +1100 Subject: Real Old School Programming In-Reply-To: <43B7136C.9020607@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20051230210749.5C98473029@linus.area51.conman.org> <003201c60dde$3b974cf0$2101a8c0@finans> <200512310255290814.0043DCE9@10.0.0.252> <001201c60dfc$8a09de20$2101a8c0@finans> <200512311113330474.020BD9F5@10.0.0.252> <200512311427580067.02BDD6C6@10.0.0.252> <43B7136C.9020607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <07501794-D0C6-4EB8-8161-16F7EDCB153E@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 01/01/2006, at 10:25 AM, woodelf wrote: > Well the Cyber people called it Deadstart. Other people called it > ColdStart. > I just call it booting the sytem. Was anyother terms used on how > to start up a computer? > PS. I got surfing the web for IBM 7070 , a real classic computer. IPL? Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From shirsch at adelphia.net Sun Jan 1 20:36:00 2006 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 21:36:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Dec 2005, Richard wrote: > Besides the Lilith Modula-2 workstation, what other computers were > made from the AMD 29xx bit-slice architecture? I believe the late, lamented New England Digital Corp. built the Synclavier music system (quarter-million buck digital synthesizer and audio workstation) CPU from AMD 29xx pieces. Early on, they produced a bit-slice mini (late 70s?) for commercial applications and propagated the same ISA to the Synclavier in the early-to-mid 80s. I'm drawing a total blank on the name of the mini, but recall seeing terminal sessions all over their engineering department. Two very bright Dartmouth CS grads were behind NED: Sidney Alonzo and Cameron Jones. These guys wrote the book on cutting edge audio synthesis algorithms. Not sure whatever became of them or the other NED staff. Steve From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Jan 1 21:26:53 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 21:26:53 -0600 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B89D7D.4030000@pacbell.net> Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > On Fri, 30 Dec 2005, Richard wrote: >>Besides the Lilith Modula-2 workstation, what other computers were >>made from the AMD 29xx bit-slice architecture? > > I believe the late, lamented New England Digital Corp. built the > Synclavier music system (quarter-million buck digital synthesizer and > audio workstation) CPU from AMD 29xx pieces. Early on, they produced a > bit-slice mini (late 70s?) for commercial applications and propagated > the same ISA to the Synclavier in the early-to-mid 80s. I'm drawing a > total blank on the name of the mini, but recall seeing terminal sessions > all over their engineering department. ... Google says: http://www.500sound.com/SyncII/sync2intro.htm This says the CPU was called "ABLE", and it was programmed in "Scientific XPL". From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jan 1 22:52:25 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 21:52:25 -0700 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >On Sunday 01 January 2006 03:29 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >>It reminds me of those people who feel nostalgia for old radios or hula >>hoops and Nehru jackets. The last two are just ridiculous in today's >>contexts and the first will still receive only talk radio and gangsta rap, >>no matter what you use for A and B batteries. >> >> > >I used to work on old radios for a guy, he'd re-do the cabinets and I'd re-do >the innards. Only criterion he had for what he picked up was that the >cabinet had to _not_ be made out of plastic. One in particular that I >remember well was not only AM-FM, but had some shortwave bands as well. The >stuff I picked up in the trailer I was living in at the time was pretty >amazing, considering that I tested it inside the trailer and used some handy >hunk of wire for an antenna... > >Notstalgia? Not really, I don't miss tube stuff, even though that's where >things were when I started working with electronics. What I miss is quality, >and the good sound that tube stuff had, you don't see it in later gear, not >at all. Nor the quality, either. > >(Aside: I wonder why somebody hasn't come up with some kind of a filter to >get that sound? They'd make a mint!) > > Well unless you want Pantented - our chip only Stereo Am a good, radio is still not that hard to build or still find parts for. Then, like now Quality is always money. I suspect it is distortion using transistors and standard diodes or questionable IC's now days. With AM radio all loud 80' rock and roll people never noticed the distortion because it made that crap sound louder and more impressive. I think the real term is **listener fatigue**. From jdbryan at acm.org Sun Jan 1 22:56:57 2006 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 23:56:57 -0500 Subject: datasheet wanted In-Reply-To: <200512291559.39199.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200601020456.k024uw1v019379@mail.bcpl.net> On 29 Dec 2005 at 15:59, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Anybody have, or know where I can get, a datasheet for these chips I have > some of that are marked "74S409" and "DP8409"? I have an MMI databook with the 74S409 and a National databook with the DP8409A (they appear to be equivalent). Regrettably, the computer connected to my scanner croaked recently, and it's replacement isn't due for two weeks. If you still need the sheets at that point, drop me a line, and I'll scan and PDF them. -- Dave From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 1 23:19:47 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 21:19:47 -0800 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> On 1/1/2006 at 9:52 PM woodelf wrote: >Well unless you want Pantented - our chip only Stereo Am a good, radio >is still not that hard to build >or still find parts for. Then, like now Quality is always money. I >suspect it is distortion using transistors and >standard diodes or questionable IC's now days. With AM >radio all loud 80' rock and roll >people never noticed the distortion because it made that crap sound >louder and more impressive. >I think the real term is **listener fatigue**. Could someone point me to harmonic distortion data, transient analysis or some good old scope traces to prove that a couple of 6B4's in class A push-pull deliver better sound than a pair of MOSFETs can? I'm not trying to start an argument, but am not convinced that vacuum tubes are better (having owned my share of tube amplifiers) than semiconductors. Cheers, Chuck P.S. I use #16 zip cord for my speakers. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jan 1 23:21:28 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 22:21:28 -0700 Subject: Home written editors (was Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: References: <43B832B6.4000700@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43B8B858.8070103@jetnet.ab.ca> Philip Pemberton wrote: >>I am having fun with the 84 plcc chips I am using -- the free PCB >>program has no >>84 pin plcc socket footprints so I hope I get the homebrew footprint right. >> >> > >Yikes.. What PCB software are you using? > > > The only free PCB program for windows I could find. http://www.freepcb.com/ Free PCB. ( Now if somebody had a copy of good low cost - $99 US pcb program and $99 schematic entry program I would be happy.) The CPLD develpment kit was $99. > >Verilog isn't too hard if you already know C. VHDL is Pure Evil (tm)... > > I like schematics with real GATE symbols best. Most of my design is still rough notes on quad paper often at 3am. This year I may have Instruction set that I am happy with. A) Front panel and 1975 ish architecture. B) A clean design if posible. So far a 6800 stretched to 18 bits has the most chance of being built once I get the CPLD's hardware compiled, and a PCB layed out. Pin locking the problem I have trying to stuff more features into the 128 cell CPLD's I am using. Ben Alias Woodelf From jdbryan at acm.org Sun Jan 1 23:28:45 2006 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 00:28:45 -0500 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200601020528.k025SkvY026355@mail.bcpl.net> On 30 Dec 2005 at 18:20, Richard wrote: > Besides the Lilith Modula-2 workstation, what other computers were > made from the AMD 29xx bit-slice architecture? The HP 1000 A600 mini used the 2901. The A700 used the 2903. (The A900 used the 74S381, while the A400 used a custom LSI chip.) -- Dave From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Jan 1 23:50:44 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 23:50:44 -0600 Subject: XENIX 286 Message-ID: <127a0e867e594b9e979b86d8f9423c72@valleyimplants.com> For SCO, the release numbers were different (at least at the end), Release 2.3.2 was 286, 2.3.4 was 386. Earlier (2.2 series) I'm not as sure of, my disks specify "SCO XENIX 386" on the 386 specific bits, and they just say "SCO XENIX" on the utility & games volumes (likely common). Minix 1.1+ can be had from www.minix3.org/previous-versions/index.html, and Coherent is available online if you poke around, too, but I think it might be the 386+ only V4.10. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jan 1 23:43:17 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 00:43:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601020557.AAA12745@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Could someone point me to harmonic distortion data, transient > analysis or some good old scope traces to prove that a couple of > 6B4's in class A push-pull deliver better sound than a pair of > MOSFETs can? No. Such data can prove that the sound is different. Which is _better_ is a matter for judgement and opinion; it is inherently impossible to "prove" a subjective judgement ("better sound") with objective data. Even something as apparently unarguable as "lower THD" does not equal "better sound"; indeed, there are companies making good money selling devices specifically designed to introduce distortion of various kinds, devices which wouldn't be used unless _someone_ thought the resulting sound was better than the un-distorted sound. My own power amp even includes such deliberate distortion capability. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 2 00:17:37 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 23:17:37 -0700 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43B8C581.8030103@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >Could someone point me to harmonic distortion data, transient analysis or >some good old scope traces to prove that a couple of 6B4's in class A >push-pull deliver better sound than a pair of MOSFETs can? > To change the subject -- buy better speakers. > I'm not trying >to start an argument, but am not convinced that vacuum tubes are better >(having owned my share of tube amplifiers) than semiconductors. > > > Did I ever tell you to buy better speakers. That is the real difference in Amps from what I have read on the net about audio quality is the speakers. Live music is still best but since we can't get that getting the best value for my $ is what I am going for. Most amps are tested with a nice 8 or 4 ohm dummy load so they all look the same on the scope. You barely get any specs listed nowadays but THD so you don't know what the amp is doing in real life. THD figures can lie as said here. Here is stuff about harmonic distortion that I have found but it is for tubes mostly. See 'The Hidden Harmonics behind THD' http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/index.html Inter modulation is never talked about at all. >Cheers, >Chuck > >P.S. I use #16 zip cord for my speakers. > > I used what was handy, but I used quality drivers and good speaker plans. None of this Bookshelf stuff ... big heavy box that was designed for average Hi-Fi use using full range speakers. One speaker does it all, best for vocal stuff. I got the lower priced Japanese stuff - $168 per pair for the drivers. 40 to 22,000 hz @ 96 db http://www.fostexspeakers.com/fostex.html The high end starts at $550 per pair 30 to 22,000 hz @ 103 db. http://www.fostexspeakers.com/fostex.html For more conventional speakers see, http://www.nutshellhifi.com/Ariel.html . I would like to comparisons done because I want the best sound for my $$$ so I can spend my money on music rather just have a impressive box with tubes in it. The links above and here http://www.decware.com/ at least give some hard data in freq response and distortion and time spent tweeking the system so it sounds right. I have built my own mid-fi amp, with what I figure is the best value for my money from parts from around the world -- speakers and resistors from Japan, Lundahl Transformers from Sweden, a crappy power transformer from Canada,Tubes and other stuff from USA old stock and surplus places like the power mosfet and zener diodes and big heat sink and Capacitors from Japan and France. I like data sheets and other information that is so rare in most consumer products today. The impressive box with blinking lights is where to spend your money, and getting a nice PDP-11 is something I don't expect to find handy because of shipping costs. Ben alias woodelf From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 2 00:28:07 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 23:28:07 -0700 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: <200601020557.AAA12745@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> <200601020557.AAA12745@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43B8C7F7.1080709@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: >Even something as apparently unarguable as "lower THD" does not equal >"better sound"; indeed, there are companies making good money selling >devices specifically designed to introduce distortion of various kinds, >devices which wouldn't be used unless _someone_ thought the resulting >sound was better than the un-distorted sound. My own power amp even >includes such deliberate distortion capability. > > > It also depends on the music played. The only thing that seems to be better with modern digital recording is sound effects and synthiszed music, Most music may loose a lot in compression and digital conversion. I like my amp becuase it seems 'transparent' to the my hi-fi music or computer games or DVD's.. >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > >. > > > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Jan 2 00:44:14 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 22:44:14 -0800 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43B6E1AD.9030501@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> <43B6E1AD.9030501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43B8CBBE.3070702@pacbell.net> woodelf wrote: > I have planned to do a Bitslice design but I have never come up with a > simple to > decode instruction set. For easy-to-decode, I can't think of anything that gives you as much power for as little work as the DG Nova. The Nova encoding, however, is very closely tied to a model datapath, as the arithmetic, logical, and shift instructions are encoded like the so-called "microinstructions" of the PDP-8. Most bits in the instruction correspond directly to control signals without any encoding at all. On the other hand, the Nova datapath is relatively straightforward to implement in TTL. --Bill From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 2 00:43:39 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 22:43:39 -0800 Subject: OT: audio reproduction In-Reply-To: <43B8C581.8030103@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> <43B8C581.8030103@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200601012243390031.09A9FD98@10.0.0.252> On 1/1/2006 at 11:17 PM woodelf wrote: >I used what was handy, but I used quality drivers and good speaker plans. >None of this Bookshelf stuff ... big heavy box that was designed for >average Hi-Fi use using full range speakers. One speaker does it all, best for >vocal stuff. I've still got my 60's era University 3-ways (12" woofer, 4" midrange and dome tweeters). They seem to do okay, though I've wondered if upgrading them might improve things. One of the issues is that I have my speakers in the same room that I use for ensemble rehearsals. It's fairly live with a 13' ceiling and not many soft surfaces. (no parallel surfaces though). It makes live music sound great, but probably works against reproduced music. I note that most "home theatre" setups are almost anechoic, with lots of carpeting, plush furniture, etc. and I suspect most speaker systems are designed for that type of room. Live, unamplified instrumental music would sound dead in such a space. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 2 01:04:58 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 00:04:58 -0700 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43B8CBBE.3070702@pacbell.net> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> <43B6E1AD.9030501@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B8CBBE.3070702@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <43B8D09A.8070206@jetnet.ab.ca> William Maddox wrote: > > For easy-to-decode, I can't think of anything that gives you as much > power for as little work as the DG Nova. The Nova encoding, however, > is very closely tied to a model datapath, as the arithmetic, logical, > and shift instructions are encoded like the so-called > "microinstructions" of the PDP-8. Most bits in the instruction > correspond directly to control signals without any encoding at all. > On the other hand, the Nova datapath is relatively straightforward to > implement in TTL. > But looking at the schematics it also makes full use of 74172's , 8 x 2 dual port ram. In fact someone sent me some 74172's but they got lost in the mail. :( The lack of real hardware like TTY's and Core memory made up of so much of the early processors I/O that a full emulation is not possible. Lack of full documention is the other problem. My pdp-8 handbook covers TAD quite well, extended options for hardware multiply , or divide it does not. I could cheat and see what Simh does. :) > --Bill Ben alias Woodelf PS. Since CPLD's now are 3.3 volts I can use ferro-ram memory after getting a design working @ 5 volts and standard memory. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 2 01:19:16 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 00:19:16 -0700 Subject: OT: audio reproduction In-Reply-To: <200601012243390031.09A9FD98@10.0.0.252> References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> <43B8C581.8030103@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012243390031.09A9FD98@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43B8D3F4.1010506@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >I've still got my 60's era University 3-ways (12" woofer, 4" midrange and >dome tweeters). They seem to do okay, though I've wondered if upgrading >them might improve things. > > > But you generaly have to upgrade the whole system. So far the arial speakers seem to me a good value for the honest information on the web site. http://www.nutshellhifi.com/index.html#index >One of the issues is that I have my speakers in the same room that I use >for ensemble rehearsals. It's fairly live with a 13' ceiling and not many >soft surfaces. (no parallel surfaces though). It makes live music sound >great, but probably works against reproduced music. I note that most "home >theatre" setups are almost anechoic, with lots of carpeting, plush >furniture, etc. and I suspect most speaker systems are designed for that >type of room. Live, unamplified instrumental music would sound dead in >such a space. > > > Here is a link for home brew audio traps , http://www.teresaudio.com/haven/home.html just in case you have some reflection problems with really loud music or base. >Cheers, >Chuck > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 2 01:18:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 23:18:31 -0800 Subject: XENIX 286 In-Reply-To: <127a0e867e594b9e979b86d8f9423c72@valleyimplants.com> References: <127a0e867e594b9e979b86d8f9423c72@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200601012318310374.09C9EA66@10.0.0.252> On 1/1/2006 at 11:50 PM compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: >For SCO, the release numbers were different (at least at the end), Release 2.3.2 was 286, 2.3.4 was 386. Earlier (2.2 series) I'm not as sure of, my disks specify "SCO XENIX 386" on the 386 specific bits, and they just say "SCO XENIX" on the utility & games volumes (likely common). Minix 1.1+ can be had from www.minix3.org/previous-versions/index.html, and Coherent is available online if you poke around, too, but I think it might be the 386+ only V4.10. I checked the distro diskettes and most of them are market 2.3, so I guess they're 386. But much of the development toolkit and utilites are marked "286". Does that mean that SCO 386 implementations don't use the flat 32-bit memory model? Cheers, Chuck From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Jan 2 01:29:35 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 08:29:35 +0100 Subject: Home written editors (was Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8664E3BC-7B61-11DA-A390-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> >> > > Verilog isn't too hard if you already know C. VHDL is Pure Evil (tm)... Not in my book that is.... Verilog is severly lacking in basic areas : in my mixed mode (analog / digital ) simulations I use "std_logic" for digital signals and "real" for analog signals, bias currents, ref. voltages etc. We also use different types for the different voltages domains in a chip. In VHDL this makes an excellent combination. Verilog just cannot handle this at all. It is suited for simple digital logic only. But since, in future, all designs will be done in System-C, only seasoned C++ progammers will be able to do hardware design.... Jos Dreesen From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sun Jan 1 18:22:56 2006 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 00:22:56 +0000 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B87260.101@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > I find it a great pity that now that transistors have become so cheap > (particularly when in ICs), most people don't care how many are used, and > most modern designs use far too many of them. It's amazing what could be > done with 2 or 3 of the things, but those clever designs have been mostly > forgotten. I remember seeing a vast encyclopedia of clever designs when I was at an electronics class at the technical college in Colchester. It was a big book of circuits, all just a few transistors or maybe an IC in the more advanced ones. I wish I knew the name of that book, so that I could look it up on the net -- does anyone remember that sort of thing? Any idea what it was called? -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From erik at baigar.de Sun Jan 1 06:55:39 2006 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 13:55:39 +0100 (MET) Subject: Programmer Electronic Control - Airborne Computer... Message-ID: Hi, via eBay I got a small computer which I analyzed and reverse engineered in the last months. I got quite far and last week I came across an old thread in this group initiated by William Maddox in nov 2003 where he mentioned the unit: "RAF Tornado Computer with Core Store Memory ... eBay-link cut out ... A small airborne computer. From what look like date codes on the components, it looks like it was made in the early 80's, which seems a bit late for this technology." The seller had several of these units for sale. My question is wether anyone reading this group has probably acquired one of the units and is willing to share parts and/or information? Up to date I bulit a setup around the box consisting of a logic analyzer connected to many vital signals. A modified transputer board connected to a Sun Sparc 20 allows to read and write the core memory of the small computer. The box is a 12-bit machine with 8K words of memory. It has a 13-bit program counter and a 12bit accumulator register. Memory organisation is similar to PDP8. The cycle time is 1.2us and the complete memory of the box I have is functional. In reverse engineerineering the command set I dis- covered JUMP and a ADD command - So I am already able to write very simple programs for the box. But now lot of commands cause the CPU to freeze (even a reset cannot restart it - one has to power off and on again) and I cannot believe that such commands exist in a computer of this type. Maybe there is a defect located in the function-decode-board which contains the microcode in several small PROMs. It would be V E R Y helpful if one out there could at least borrow me his boards for a crosscheck (I do only need SK7 and above, not the core memory boards). Regarding William Maddox's comment about the date of the box: Regarding the architecture the box is very similar to PDP8 but mine has been built after 6/82 with the power supply been changed after 1982. This type of box was indeed developed for the tornado but - as far as I was able to find out - was not used. It might have been some kind of prototype device. Serialnumber is <50. The boards for core memory seem to be somewhat universal and even older in design - maybe they have been used in other devices, too... Any hints are welcome, best regards, Erik, erik at baigar.de. P.S. For pictures see http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/ From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Jan 2 02:23:20 2006 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 03:23:20 -0500 Subject: Collection storage and working conditions In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20051231080615.043c5728@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: On 12/31/05 8:07 AM, "John Boffemmyer IV" wrote: > Forget that; wtf are you doing with an MP5 laying on the ground in > open access, half under a red binder? > -John Boffemmyer IV Take a closer look at that "MP5" Also note that I'm only 16. As for the guitar, I'm not sure :D From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Jan 2 02:25:53 2006 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 03:25:53 -0500 Subject: Collection storage and working conditions In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20051231080615.043c5728@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: And that's a pillow too :) On 12/31/05 8:07 AM, "John Boffemmyer IV" wrote: > Forget that; wtf are you doing with an MP5 laying on the ground in > open access, half under a red binder? > -John Boffemmyer IV > > At 09:18 PM 12/30/2005, you wrote: > >> Gary Sparkes wrote: >>>>> I've been doing housekeeping with my equipment all week, and I've finally >>>>> got it sorted thus far -- http://www.tehproxy.com/room/ >>>> >>>> Umm... are these pictures before or after you finally got it sorted? :-) >>> These were the after.... >> >> What model of computer was the guitar? ;-) >> -- >> Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) >> World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ >> A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ >> Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ > From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jan 1 13:19:24 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 13:19:24 -0600 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <43B75B24.40007@mdrconsult.com> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <20051231232327.02e8d97b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B75B24.40007@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <43B82B3C.7060304@oldskool.org> Doc Shipley wrote: > No, it's a laptop SLT/286, which makes adding RAM problematic. I can > get upgrade modules, but they seem to run about $15-30/MB. Maybe > reasonable, but not happenin'. :) Even one module increases your options dramatically; old machines are most useful when they're maxed out on RAM. I'd pony up $15 for at least one module. With 2MB of RAM you can run Coherent, Minix, Windows 3.1... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Jan 2 02:02:04 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 08:02:04 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk Message-ID: <20060102120847.KZP15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Regarding the ImageDisk project: I was surprised at how much positive and supporting email I received in the past two weeks regarding ImageDisk, and I have been even more surprised at the number of people who asked me to continue the project - I did not think that many people were using (or at least interested in using) the program. In the light of this feedback, I am willing try and not allow the bad vibes from a few to bring down what so many indicate they still consider to be a good thing. To that end, I have reconnected the images archive on my web site, and I will continue to make the latest versions of ImageDisk available there. As this is a privately developed/funded project, you can choose to use it or ignore it as suits your particular mindset. I do not wish to re-open the can of worms that has aleady played out here, so please consider the following my "final say" on the subjects. If you disagree with my decisions, I invite you to excercise your option of creating your own software package more suitable to your requirements. Binary / Image Format --------------------- Some people have expressed concern about the future of the program as well as it's current legal status, especially given that I was ready to withdraw it from circulation. To address this, I have released a new version (1.09) of the program which contains an explicit license, which essentially states: - You may use the program for as long as you like. - You may distribute copies of the program as long as you do not alter or omit the original content. (You may make additions as long as they are clearly marked as such). - You may create/manipulate .IMD image files with no restriction (at least not from me) - I have included a statement explicitly placing the .IMD image file format specification into the public domain. - I guarantee nothing / I take no responsibility for what you do with any of this material. FYI: 1.09 also correctly supports the secondary controller, and should support 4 drives/controller - although I am unable to test the latter. It also has a new command in the Align/Test function that lets you write out a .IMD file containing a single track (read by 'D'), which can be useful for recovering marginal/bad sectors. (It was to me!) Source Code ----------- As noted in one of my earlier postings, I have no plans to release the ImageDisk source code under GPL - I don't agree with GPL. If your position is an inflexible "GPL or the highway", then please locate the nearest on-ramp and be on your way with no further ado. It is interesting to note that although I offered to make the source code available under a Non-Distribution-Agreement to anyone who had need of it, only one person asked for it, and this person was not one of those involved in the "discussion" (in fact this person does not subscribe to the mailing list and heard about the source code offer by another channel). I also gave the code to a second person (from the list) who was trying to get ImageDisk running under DOSEMU and I saw that he would benefit from seeing exactly what it was doing with the hardware (although he never actually asked for it). I'm not sure exacty what the above means, but it would suggest that the negative statements made in the mailing list and in private email were motivated more by "religion" than by any pressing need for the source code. At this time, for reasons I have already stated, I am not ready to make the ImageDisk source code generally available for modification. To address concerns that my source code policy is preventing people from developing similar programs (I can't see why), and for those who stated that they simply can't use the program without looking at it's source code (and for whatever reasons are unwilling to simply ask for it), I have made the concession of allowing the ImageDisk source files to be anonymously accessed on a "view only" basis. You can download IMDSRC.ZIP from my web site, which contains a viewer which will let you browse the source code files. I have no doubt that there are plenty of people here with the technical skills to break the viewer and extract the source code files, however I I ask that you please not do so. Please refer to the README.TXT file in the archive for my reasons. If you have a legitimate need to use the source files, please contact me and I am sure we can work out an arrangment. It is my wish to fully support anyone who is developing an ImageDisk compatible program for other environments. Regarding concerns that not using GPL will prevent anyone from using "ideas" from my source code - please note: I hold copyright on this code which protects this particular implementation/representation of the ideas and algorithms used within it, however I have neither applied for, nor received patents on any portion of the program. This means the ideas and algorithms themselves are NOT restricted. In other words you can use any of the techniques which I have employed in your own programs. To clairify this point, I have made an explicit statement to this effect in the terms and conditions which accompany the code viewer (although such a statement is not strictly necessary). -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jan 2 06:20:00 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 12:20:00 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk In-Reply-To: <20060102120847.KZP15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060102120847.KZP15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <43B91A70.1000801@gjcp.net> Dave Dunfield wrote: > I hold copyright on this code which protects this particular > implementation/representation of the ideas and algorithms used within > it, however I have neither applied for, nor received patents on any > portion of the program. This means the ideas and algorithms themselves > are NOT restricted. In other words you can use any of the techniques Just my 2p worth, but if you think the algorithms may be patentable it could be worth patenting them before $evil_megacorp does. Whether or not you choose to defend that patent is another matter. It would be better to have one of the "good guys" holding the patents. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jan 2 06:27:48 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 12:27:48 +0000 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43B91C44.7070509@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/1/2006 at 9:52 PM woodelf wrote: > > >>Well unless you want Pantented - our chip only Stereo Am a good, radio >>is still not that hard to build >>or still find parts for. Then, like now Quality is always money. I >>suspect it is distortion using transistors and >>standard diodes or questionable IC's now days. With AM >>radio all loud 80' rock and roll >>people never noticed the distortion because it made that crap sound >>louder and more impressive. >>I think the real term is **listener fatigue**. > > > Could someone point me to harmonic distortion data, transient analysis or > some good old scope traces to prove that a couple of 6B4's in class A > push-pull deliver better sound than a pair of MOSFETs can? I'm not trying > to start an argument, but am not convinced that vacuum tubes are better > (having owned my share of tube amplifiers) than semiconductors. Depends what you mean by "good". I like my 3xECC83 and 2xEL34 valve guitar amp, but I *know* that's very distorted. Lots of things sound good through it, but I wouldn't want to play my stereo through it (ok, it's mono anyway). I do, however, occasionally bounce tracks recorded digitally through it. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jan 2 06:30:24 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 12:30:24 +0000 Subject: (FS) Amstrad NC100 Notepad computer In-Reply-To: <000601c60e1f$930c26e0$0b01a8c0@nemesis> References: <000601c60e1f$930c26e0$0b01a8c0@nemesis> Message-ID: <43B91CE0.70805@gjcp.net> Andre wrote: > Hi. > > Just found this in my spares box. I was going to salvage the display but its not big enough for what I wanted it for. > > It seems to work fine, so if anyone wants to add it to their collection make me an offer. Where are you? Gordon. From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Jan 2 06:57:26 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 07:57:26 -0500 Subject: yikes. drifting OT. In-Reply-To: <200601020557.AAA12745@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> <200601020557.AAA12745@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20060102075726.00ca0ebf.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 00:43:17 -0500 (EST) der Mouse wrote: > > Could someone point me to harmonic distortion data, transient > > analysis or some good old scope traces to prove that a couple of > > 6B4's in class A push-pull deliver better sound than a pair of > > MOSFETs can? > > No. Such data can prove that the sound is different. Which is > _better_ is a matter for judgement and opinion; it is inherently > impossible to "prove" a subjective judgement ("better sound") with > objective data. > > Even something as apparently unarguable as "lower THD" does not equal > "better sound"; The principle of High Fidelity is perfect reproduction. The amplifier stages should introduce NOTHING into the signal. 'Better sound' means as near to an exact reproduction as possible. Granted, this isn't possible for a lot of recordings of music, where the whole recording is a collage of faked/tweaked/doctored snippets. Listen to live recordings of acoustic piano sometime. You want ALL the crap between you and the original sound ripped out and thrown away. > indeed, there are companies making good money selling > devices specifically designed to introduce distortion of various kinds, > devices which wouldn't be used unless _someone_ thought the resulting > sound was better than the un-distorted sound. My own power amp even > includes such deliberate distortion capability. If it makes a recording sound subjectively 'nicer' to you then that's fine. But that's just one step removed from a box that 'simulates' stereophonic sound from a monophonic recording. Anything that changes or adulterates the signal runs against the principles of High Fidelity. My Yamaha integrated Amp even has a bypass switch on it that cuts out ALL the tone controls and signal doctoring the Amp otherwise is capable of. Ultimately, once you discard the founding principles of High Fidelity, "it's all just entertainment, folks." Which can be very nice. But let's not confuse the issue. From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Jan 2 07:18:42 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 08:18:42 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk In-Reply-To: <43B91A70.1000801@gjcp.net> References: <20060102120847.KZP15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <43B91A70.1000801@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20060102081842.777e4cfc.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 12:20:00 +0000 Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > I hold copyright on this code which protects this particular > > implementation/representation of the ideas and algorithms used within > > it, however I have neither applied for, nor received patents on any > > portion of the program. This means the ideas and algorithms themselves > > are NOT restricted. In other words you can use any of the techniques > > Just my 2p worth, but if you think the algorithms may be patentable it > could be worth patenting them before $evil_megacorp does. Whether or > not you choose to defend that patent is another matter. > > It would be better to have one of the "good guys" holding the patents. > It's essentially 'published' now. Doesn't that mean a 'prior art' defense will work? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jan 2 07:51:23 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 13:51:23 GMT Subject: 1802 problems In-Reply-To: Roger Pugh "Re: 1802 problems" (Dec 31, 0:56) References: Message-ID: <10601021351.ZM23790@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Dec 31 2005, 0:56, Roger Pugh wrote: > could this be a ram problem. wasnt the rca 1802 used a lot on > satellites due to its reliability It was used because there was a rad-hard silicon-on-sapphire version, and then some people used the standard versions so they could use the same code and tools. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Jan 2 08:19:13 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 15:19:13 +0100 Subject: 1802 problems Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF25CD@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Yes, and I seem to remember that an other reason to use the 1802 was because RCA exactly specified what the CPU would do on *any* "opcode", even for the codes that were not actually instruction codes? - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > Sent: maandag 2 januari 2006 14:51 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: 1802 problems > > On Dec 31 2005, 0:56, Roger Pugh wrote: > > could this be a ram problem. wasnt the rca 1802 used a lot on > > satellites due to its reliability > > It was used because there was a rad-hard silicon-on-sapphire > version, and then some people used the standard versions so > they could use the same code and tools. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Jan 2 09:13:52 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 10:13:52 -0500 Subject: 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <10601021351.ZM23790@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <10601021351.ZM23790@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20060102151352.66303BA47EA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > It was used because there was a rad-hard silicon-on-sapphire version, > and then some people used the standard versions so they could use the > same code and tools. Up until just a few years ago (2002?), Harris/Intersil web pages listed the SOS 1802 as a current product, along with more conventional CMOS 1802's and support chips. If I have the chronology right, Harris bought much of RCA's line in the 90's and Intersil bought them out a few years later. But they've been dropping a lot of classic parts (including the CA3046, which I never believed would go out of style! There are newer surface-mount differential pairs of course but not quite the same as the good old CA3046 in a can...) Many of the hobbyist-oriented retailers still have plenty of old stock though. What 70's era micros are still in production? Z80, I'm sure. 8088, probably (although probably not in an Intel fab.) Anything else? If I look in the BG Micro or Jameco catalog I see lots of 70's era micros and support chips but I'm sure that most of those parts are pulls or old stock. Tim. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jan 2 10:45:07 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 08:45:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: AMD Bit-slice machines Message-ID: <200601021645.IAA23986@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >Certainly the double-density controller in my MDS800 is 3000-based. But >the microcode is not given in the manual. > >-tony Hi When I worked for Intel ( years ago ) I knew the fellow that wrote the micro code for the double density controller. The sequencer for the 3000 series was not the easiest to work with. Unlike the 2900 stuff, it didn't just sequence to the next address ( like most uP ). Each instruction had an indiction as to what the next address was. The micro code is organized as rows and columns. One could jump conditionally or not to another location in a row or column. There were special jumps to the first row or column. Filling the micro code ROMs was something like learning to play a good game of chess. If one wasn't careful, one would work themselves into a corner that you couldn't get to the empty space you wanted to use ( other than an additional clock cycle ). Dwight From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jan 2 11:06:04 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:06:04 GMT Subject: 1802 problems In-Reply-To: "Gooijen, Henk" "RE: 1802 problems" (Jan 2, 15:19) References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF25CD@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <10601021706.ZM24162@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 2 2006, 15:19, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Yes, and I seem to remember that an other reason to use the 1802 > was because RCA exactly specified what the CPU would do on *any* > "opcode", even for the codes that were not actually instruction codes? That's right -- I'd forgotten that. There was also some work done to see what effect ionising radiation would have on them. Another factor was that the 1801 and 1802 were the first available low-power CMOS microprocessors. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jan 2 11:08:10 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:08:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: ImageDisk In-Reply-To: <20060102081842.777e4cfc.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20060102120847.KZP15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <43B91A70.1000801@gjcp.net> <20060102081842.777e4cfc.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200601021711.MAA15668@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Just my 2p worth, but if you think the algorithms may be patentable >> it could be worth patenting them before $evil_megacorp does. [...] >> It would be better to have one of the "good guys" holding the >> patents. > It's essentially 'published' now. Doesn't that mean a 'prior art' > defense will work? Most places, I think so. But in the USA, there's traditionally been a one-year grace period between publication and unpatentability. (I put it that way because whether it's still so I don't know.) Of course, whether Dave cares about patents in the USA is another matter, seeing as how he's in Canada. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jan 2 11:12:36 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 09:12:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: SOL-20 keyboard question Message-ID: <200601021712.JAA24464@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "William Maddox" > >Dwight Elvey wrote: > >> Hi >> Some types of foam don't last long. I wonder if one >> could make some with closed cell foam instead. It >> last much longer but is a little stiffer than the >> foam that they seem to be using. >> If it is a capacitive you should be able to make >> new capacitors with some aluminum foil and clear >> tape. > >Aluminized mylar is easy to come by in the form of mylar punched-tape >stock. It is quite expensive these days, but a single roll would go a >long way. Also, aluminized mylar is widely used in balloons and novelty >items, which could be harvested for material. I have no idea if the >thickness is critical, but this sort of material would likely be much >more conformant than aluminum foil. > >--Bill Hi Bill Using the mylar from the balloons seems like the best of ideas. It is very thin and would most likely work the best. One could get a hole punch from an auto parts store ( used for making gaskets ) and make new pads. I have closed cell foam that is over 20 years old and still fine, unlike the normal foam used elsewhere that ozone and time have turned to a gooey mess. I would say that this makes the keyboards repairable for someone that want to take the time. Dwight From stevew at ka6s.com Mon Jan 2 11:33:43 2006 From: stevew at ka6s.com (Steven Wilson) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 09:33:43 -0800 Subject: Burroughs L-series Message-ID: <1136223223.21336.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> >What are the Burroughs L-series computers? I started working for >Burroughs just before the Sperry merger and I guess I missed the >L-series. I> collect B1000 stuff (or, I would collect it if I could find anything) >and acquired a bunch of B20 systems a couple of years ago, so I collect >them now. >Other than a museum that asked me if I ever found a B1000, I haven't >found any other collectors of Burroughs stuff. >alan That's funny - I use to design them ;-) I was a CPU design engineer on the last two iterations of the B1000 (B1955/B1965). (Hans P should probably saw something next ;-) Curious what you've got in your collection? I'd buy a B1965 if one ever were available! ( I should be able to help with B1955 too if anyone has one..) I should be able to help get one running again if required. Steve Wilson From kth at srv.net Mon Jan 2 11:44:25 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 10:44:25 -0700 Subject: weird modems In-Reply-To: <200512301726.17735.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200512301726.17735.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <43B96679.6020702@srv.net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Since you guys are bringing up some unusual stuff with modems, I thought of >something else I have in storage... > >Got a pair of units that are designed to be used on a 4-wire (!) leased line, >or something. There's no "smarts" in the modem portion of it at all, though >there is a separate board in there (with a separate serial connector) that >has a z80 on it to do some sort of diagnostics. They're 9600 baud, but >since they're set up for a 4-wire connection I don't forsee me having any >possible use for them. > > > Sounds like a short-haul modem. Good for about 1 mile distance. Maybe up to 9600 baud, depending on distance and cable quality. Never saw one with a Z80 in it, usually they are just a set of line drivers/receivers. >Was thinking about scrapping them out, as they're in cases that are quite >nice, but I'll entertain offers to the contrary. :-) > > > From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jan 2 11:40:07 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:40:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Burroughs L-series In-Reply-To: <1136223223.21336.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: > That's funny - I use to design them ;-) I was a CPU design engineer on > the last two iterations of the B1000 (B1955/B1965). (Hans P should > probably saw something next ;-) Curious what you've got in your > collection? > > I'd buy a B1965 if one ever were available! ( I should be able to help > with B1955 too if anyone has one..) I should be able to help get one > running again if required. Find me an IBM S/360 or S/370 and I will trade you a B1955. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon Jan 2 11:51:00 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 12:51:00 -0500 Subject: SOL-20 keyboard question In-Reply-To: <200601021712.JAA24464@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200601021712.JAA24464@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <43B96804.3040707@jcwren.com> I wonder if one could take a thin stiff plastic (perhaps for overhead transparencies?), glue it to the foam, and glue that to the mylar, then start punching discs. I don't know about the gasket cutter, but I have a tool from years ago that was part of a grommetting kit. It's a sharp edged steel tool for cutting holes in canvas or rubber, and is smacked with a hammer to do the cutting. You'd need an adhesive that wasn't thick and wouldn't eat the foam. Perhaps something like "artists adhesive". I think it's used for mounting photos and such, and comes in a spray can. I do remember it's fairly thin. I don't know if it would remain sticky enough over time. --jc Dwight Elvey wrote: > >Hi Bill > Using the mylar from the balloons seems like the best of ideas. >It is very thin and would most likely work the best. >One could get a hole punch from an auto parts store ( used >for making gaskets ) and make new pads. I have closed cell >foam that is over 20 years old and still fine, unlike the >normal foam used elsewhere that ozone and time have turned >to a gooey mess. > I would say that this makes the keyboards repairable for >someone that want to take the time. >Dwight > From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Mon Jan 2 11:53:40 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:53:40 -0000 Subject: weird modems References: <200512301726.17735.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B96679.6020702@srv.net> Message-ID: <001601c60fc5$779894a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> 4 wire modems were popular in the UK in the 70s and 80s, the Datapoint system I ran the mid 80s had them for communicating with head office. The advantage of a 4-wire circuit is that it provides full-duplex working, which is not possible on a standard (2 wire) system, so, in theory, data transfer can be faster (in practice, it is usually data one way and handshakes the other, so it makes little difference). Most leased lines in the UK were 4 wire, so we saw a lot of these. We still have a few Racal units at work, on Radar data cicuits (the benefits of plot extraction - a live radar feed goes from needing a 5MHz wide microwave link to a 2400Baud modem, and still has space for remote monitoring to be multiplexed on top, that's real progress!). With the low data rates on most of these units, the will drive a long way, and they have varying levels of intelligence, from the simple FSK oscillator and receiver, to inbuilt error correction, depending on the application. Our old Racal units are very simple, but later units have internal microprocessors to handle the various additional features. Jim. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jan 2 12:06:39 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 18:06:39 GMT Subject: 1802 problems In-Reply-To: shoppa_classiccmp@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) "Re: 1802 problems" (Jan 2, 10:13) References: <10601021351.ZM23790@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <20060102151352.66303BA47EA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <10601021806.ZM24353@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 2 2006, 10:13, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > It was used because there was a rad-hard silicon-on-sapphire version, > > and then some people used the standard versions so they could use the > > same code and tools. > > Up until just a few years ago (2002?), Harris/Intersil web pages listed the > SOS 1802 as a current product, along with more conventional CMOS 1802's > and support chips. I'm not so sure they were really available, though. Take a look at http://www.amsat.org/amsat/articles/g3ruh/124.html > If I have the chronology right, Harris bought much of RCA's line in > the 90's and Intersil bought them out a few years later. > > But they've been dropping a lot of classic parts (including the CA3046, > which I never believed would go out of style! There are newer > surface-mount differential pairs of course but not quite the same > as the good old CA3046 in a can...) Many of the hobbyist-oriented > retailers still have plenty of old stock though. > > What 70's era micros are still in production? Z80, I'm sure. 8088, probably > (although probably not in an Intel fab.) Anything else? I was going to say I thought the Z80 was no longer in production, although some of the descendants are. However, Zilog still show several 40-pin DIL and 44-pin PLCC versions as active. Intel still list a couple of members of the MCS-48 family and sell modern versions of the 8051 for automotive applicatons. I think MCS-51 is mid-1980s though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 2 12:26:22 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 10:26:22 -0800 Subject: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43B9704E.3070408@sbcglobal.net> I believe the Zilog Z80 is still made. At least it was in 2004. May be a different part number though. Bob Message: 16 Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 10:13:52 -0500 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Subject: Re: 1802 problems To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <20060102151352.66303BA47EA at mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Pete Turnbull wrote: >> It was used because there was a rad-hard silicon-on-sapphire version, >> and then some people used the standard versions so they could use the >> same code and tools. > > Up until just a few years ago (2002?), Harris/Intersil web pages listed the SOS 1802 as a current product, along with more conventional CMOS 1802's and support chips. If I have the chronology right, Harris bought much of RCA's line in the 90's and Intersil bought them out a few years later. But they've been dropping a lot of classic parts (including the CA3046, which I never believed would go out of style! There are newer surface-mount differential pairs of course but not quite the same as the good old CA3046 in a can...) Many of the hobbyist-oriented retailers still have plenty of old stock though. What 70's era micros are still in production? Z80, I'm sure. 8088, probably (although probably not in an Intel fab.) Anything else? If I look in the BG Micro or Jameco catalog I see lots of 70's era micros and support chips but I'm sure that most of those parts are pulls or old stock. Tim. -------- > > From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Jan 2 08:40:20 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 14:40:20 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk In-Reply-To: <200601021711.MAA15668@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20060102081842.777e4cfc.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20060102184711.FSOM15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Of course, whether Dave cares about patents in the USA is another > matter, seeing as how he's in Canada. Forgive me for quoting out of order, but I wanted to make this point first. I have no interest in patenting any part of this particular program (in the USA or Canada), for several reasons: - A patent would serve to suppress use of the idea. It may not be obvious from recent "debates", but the whole point of ImageDisk is NOT about this one program, but it is about the documented image format, and in allowing people to explore other means than just my IMD command to access the data (which is one reason why the format is in the public domain). A patent on any part of the process would serve only to restrict future access. - I have no reason to patent any part of it, as I have no current or projected revenue stream to protect. - I personally disagree with the general notion of a software patent (most of the patents that I am aware of are not what I would personally consider to be unique/original enough that they should have such protection - there are a couple of exeptions). - Most important! There is nothing in the program which I believe to be patentable! Figuring out what is passing under the head of a disk drive and reading that data into a file is NOT "rocket science" ... It's just a matter of groking the data sheets for the disk controller... > > It's essentially 'published' now. Doesn't that mean a 'prior art' > > defense will work? > > Most places, I think so. But in the USA, there's traditionally been a > one-year grace period between publication and unpatentability. (I put > it that way because whether it's still so I don't know.) I don't know USA patent law in great detail, but doesn't this refer to publication by the applicant of the patent - Ie: if I were to suddenly decide that I had patentable IP in the program sometime within the next few months, I could apply for and have a reasonable expectation of being considered for a patent. But if you were to apply for a patent on the same IP, the fact that someone else at more than arms length away from you has previously disclosed this IP would be sufficent ground to dismiss the application ? -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Jan 2 13:00:02 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 13:00:02 -0600 Subject: XENIX 286 Message-ID: SCO was not blind to the advantages of having single-binaries across the product line when possible, so most XENIX-386 utilities et al were compiled segmented-286. The easiest way to check is as follows, if you have a Linux machine. -build a kernel with SYSTEM V/XENIX/Coherent FS available as a module or built-it -mount the N1 disk (standard SysV FS, bootable), or the image therof -"file xenix" to see the kernel type. 386 kernels will have '386' in the output of the file command. beware -- XENIX tends to be very hardware specific, and at least some of the Wyse distros were linked to Wyse HW. You may or may not be able to get it to install. The 2.3 series seems to be more forgiving than the 2.2 series, though. Remember that you will need a serial/activation code to get it installed and to get the devel environment working. Does anyone here know how the XENIX 'brand' setup works? it somehow modifies the binaries, but I don't have the devel environment or a disassembler so I don't know how. From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Jan 2 13:03:06 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 14:03:06 -0500 Subject: Burroughs L-series Message-ID: <01C60FA5.6BA60260@ns1.syne-post.com> --------------Original Message------------- >Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 18:09:45 -0800 >From: Alan Perry >Subject: Re: Burroughs L-series > >> From: M H Stein >> >> A couple of years ago I met a couple of people on here that had >> Burroughs L-series computers, but lost track of them in the meantime. >> (I think there's an L5000 at Bletchley, but they probably don't need >> or want anything). >> >> I'm about to toss out the last remnants of my L stuff (programming >> manuals, memory cards, tape drive, TD-700 display, etc.) >> >> If there's anyone out there still interested, send me an email off-list >> before they go into landfill. >> > >What are the Burroughs L-series computers? I started working for >Burroughs just before the Sperry merger and I guess I missed the >L-series. > >I collect B1000 stuff (or, I would collect it if I could find anything) >and acquired a bunch of B20 systems a couple of years ago, so I collect >them now. > >Other than a museum that asked me if I ever found a B1000, I haven't >found any other collectors of Burroughs stuff. > >alan -------------Reply------------- Ah, another ex-BBM/Unisys type; hi! Frank McConnell very kindly directed me to: news:comp.sys.unisys Don't know how many people on there are collectors, but they're certainly interested in Burroughs & Unisys stuff. What are L's? Glad you asked: The L series was a type of computer that's largely ignored by the historical community, often written off as _just_ an accounting machine. First there was the F series which, along with Monroe and NCR equivalents, could be found in pretty well every small bank back in the 50s & 60s. Completely electro-mechanical, they were basically multi-total adding machines with a wide carriage for ledger cards and journal paper rolls. If you think a Selectric is a complicated system of levers & springs, you've never seen the insides of one of these babies; they were "programmed" with different length metal pins inserted in specific locations in a program panel running the width of the machine. Printing was done with type bars for the numeric data and a type box for alpha (if an alpha model). They were superseded by the E series, which replaced the levers and springs with discrete transistor logic and core memory (and an interesting device called a "magnetic core counter"). They also added the capability to read data off a magnetic stripe on the back of the ledger cards which stored constant data (client name etc.) and running totals, and PPT I/O. The replacement L series started out (L 2000 to L5000) with mechanical keyboards and a Selectric ball printer, a small fixed hard disk for RAM, and IC logic. The L6000 replaced the keyboard with an electronic version, the L8000 replaced the memory with IC's (2102?), and the L9000 replaced the Selectric ball with a dot matrix printhead. They were programmed in assembler, Cobol or a Report Generator (usually cross-compiled on a larger system, although there was an on-board assembler available). They all had an integrated PPT reader (mechanical or electronic) for loading firmware, and also programs if there was no cassette or mag stripe reader. The IC RAM models also had a battery-powered DC300 tape drive for saving & restoring memory in case of a power failure. Optional peripherals included PPT I/O (Tape and cards), up to four digital cassette drives, a separate batch mag stripe reader and datacomm (TC series). One interesting feature was the two independent form tractors on the printer, essentially giving you two (three, if you count the ledger cards) separate printers, side by side, with only one printhead. Not all models used ledger cards and, especially with four tape drives, they made a pretty good all-purpose computer; one of my installations generated BOMs for an aluminum window manufacturer, for example. The last models of this type (AFAIK) were the B80 & B90, which added 8" floppy disks, 14" 5MB hard disk cartridges and a video display (either a Panaplex or a CRT). Aside from the one thing all these models had in common, the integrated keyboard and wide carriage console, they had essentially become "normal" mainstream micros and were superseded by B20s etc. mike From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jan 2 13:13:30 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 13:13:30 -0600 Subject: XENIX 286 In-Reply-To: <200601012318310374.09C9EA66@10.0.0.252> References: <127a0e867e594b9e979b86d8f9423c72@valleyimplants.com> <200601012318310374.09C9EA66@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43B97B5A.9070807@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 1/1/2006 at 11:50 PM compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > > >>For SCO, the release numbers were different (at least at the end), Release > > 2.3.2 was 286, 2.3.4 was 386. Earlier (2.2 series) I'm not as sure of, my > disks specify "SCO XENIX 386" on the 386 specific bits, and they just say > "SCO XENIX" on the utility & games volumes (likely common). Minix 1.1+ can > be had from www.minix3.org/previous-versions/index.html, and Coherent is > available online if you poke around, too, but I think it might be the 386+ > only V4.10. > > I checked the distro diskettes and most of them are market 2.3, so I guess > they're 386. But much of the development toolkit and utilites are marked > "286". Does that mean that SCO 386 implementations don't use the flat > 32-bit memory model? I dunno, but thanks for digging them out and looking! Doc From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 2 13:35:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 11:35:07 -0800 Subject: XENIX 286 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601021135070043.0C6C4E64@10.0.0.252> On 1/2/2006 at 1:00 PM compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > beware -- XENIX tends to be very hardware specific, and at least some of >the Wyse distros were linked to Wyse HW. You may or may not be able to get >it to install. The 2.3 series seems to be more forgiving than the 2.2 >series, though. Remember that you will need a serial/activation code to >get it installed and to get the devel environment working. > Does anyone here know how the XENIX 'brand' setup works? it somehow modifies the binaries, but I don't have the devel environment or a disassembler so I don't know how. You're right about the Wyse-branded setup checking for the presense of Wyse hardware, but it's a simple BOIS ROM check in the very early boot stages and is easily patched out. I have the complete set of manuals for the system and development tools as well as driver disks for the Wyse LCD display and a few other oddities--and I have the activation key. I have no idea, given the date of the binaries (about 1989) how smart the thing is about more modern things like IDE CD-ROM drives and hard disks > 8GB. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 2 13:47:22 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 12:47:22 -0700 Subject: yikes. drifting OT. In-Reply-To: <20060102075726.00ca0ebf.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> <200601020557.AAA12745@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060102075726.00ca0ebf.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43B9834A.8020704@jetnet.ab.ca> Scott Stevens wrote: >The principle of High Fidelity is perfect reproduction. The >amplifier stages should introduce NOTHING into the signal. >'Better sound' means as near to an exact reproduction as >possible. Granted, this isn't possible for a lot of recordings >of music, where the whole recording is a collage of >faked/tweaked/doctored snippets. Listen to live recordings of >acoustic piano sometime. You want ALL the crap between you and >the original sound ripped out and thrown away. > > I got a DVD player that has DVD Audio -- 24 bit @ 96? sampling but I have yet to buy a DVD out here in that format. >If it makes a recording sound subjectively 'nicer' to you then >that's fine. But that's just one step removed from a box that >'simulates' stereophonic sound from a monophonic recording. >Anything that changes or adulterates the signal runs against the >principles of High Fidelity. My Yamaha integrated Amp even has a >bypass switch on it that cuts out ALL the tone controls and >signal doctoring the Amp otherwise is capable of. > > Now here is information on just what ALL the sonic controls are. http://www.tubecad.com/articles_2002/Missing_Sonic_Controls/index.html From charlesmorris at direcway.com Mon Jan 2 14:00:57 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 14:00:57 -0600 Subject: RL02 drives In-Reply-To: <200601021800.k02I0mBO039067@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601021800.k02I0mBO039067@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 12:00:55 -0600 (CST), you wrote: >Is the terminator installed on the drive? IIRC, without the >terminator the fault light will come on. I have heard this before, but omitting the terminator does not cause a fault on either my 8/A or 11, at least while idling. It probably will cause trouble on reads or writes depending on how fast the data transitions are and how much "ringing" there is. -Charles From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 2 14:12:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 12:12:16 -0800 Subject: SOL-20 keyboard question In-Reply-To: <43B96804.3040707@jcwren.com> References: <200601021712.JAA24464@ca2h0430.amd.com> <43B96804.3040707@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <200601021212160572.0C8E5366@10.0.0.252> On 1/2/2006 at 12:51 PM J.C. Wren wrote: > You'd need an adhesive that wasn't thick and wouldn't eat the foam. >Perhaps something like "artists adhesive". I think it's used for >mounting photos and such, and comes in a spray can. I do remember it's >fairly thin. I don't know if it would remain sticky enough over time. It might be too thick, but the self-adhesive tinted mylar film sold for windows might be conductive enough and have a suitable adhesive. From charlesmorris at direcway.com Mon Jan 2 14:15:21 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 14:15:21 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 booting, RL02 working! Message-ID: <6k1jr1tujk380nglaresnoiqvcd6h52jbk@4ax.com> More "operator error". Sometimes I think I have mild dyslexia. The RL02 Fault and Ready lights stayed on which is usually a sign of bad cabling (lost clock). Although I had carefully aligned the IDC connectors while making my substitute RL02 ribbon cable, I thought I'd save some effort by using a 40 pin header as a male-male connector directly to the Berg connector (that mates with the drive bulkhead connector inside). However - after considerable schematic, DVM and scope work I belatedly discovered that this connects the headers in a mirror image and although left/right can be swapped by turning over the ribbon cable, the two rows are now swapped as well! The four corner pins are 3 grounds and the BPOK H signal. Wrong cabling doesn't hurt anything on the RL8E since the power-ok circuit has a 100 ohm resistor in the collector of the driver transistor. But on the RLV12 there is no protective current limiting and the PNP transistor (MPS-A55) is turned on hard between +5 and the (short to) ground! Fortunately it just got hot but didn't fry, although it might if it'd taken me much longer to figure out the trouble :) Anyhow this time when I powered up there were no lamps lit on the RL02 (normal) and after the requisite 15 sec. powerup the Load light came on. I crossed my fingers and pushed the Load button and the drive spun up and the Ready lamp lit. So far so good. So I flipped the restart switch on the CPU, answered "Y" to "Start?" and got a message "Please boot from system disk". I have one other disk pack that is known to have come from a PDP-11, so I put it in the drive - lo and behold, "Booting up XXDP-XM Extended Monitor" followed by ... "V2.4, Rev. E1, booted from DL0, 124Kw memory, Non-Unibus system, restart address 152000, type H for help". Looks like I now have a working PDP-11 :) The pack has 727 files on it whose names are meaningless (to me anyway). XXDPXM.SYS etc. is obvious but there are hundreds of files from A to Z with names like "VKMHA0.BIN", "ZAFAC0.BIC" and some .LIB and .OBJ files too. What on earth do I have here? Is it something that anyone would be interested in copying? -Charles From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Jan 2 14:35:32 2006 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 15:35:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-11 booting, RL02 working! Message-ID: <29851008.1136234133270.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > - lo and behold, "Booting up XXDP-XM Extended >Monitor" followed by ... "V2.4, Rev. E1, booted from DL0, 124Kw >memory, Non-Unibus system, restart address 152000, type H for >help". > >Looks like I now have a working PDP-11 :) > >The pack has 727 files on it whose names are meaningless (to me >anyway). XXDPXM.SYS etc. is obvious but there are hundreds of >files from A to Z with names like "VKMHA0.BIN", "ZAFAC0.BIC" and >some .LIB and .OBJ files too. > >What on earth do I have here? Is it something that anyone would be >interested in copying? > >-Charles > Charles, congratulations on getting the PDP-11 booting! What you have there is an XXDP diagnostics pack. All those "meaningless" files are various diagnostics that can perform tests such as memory checks, CPU tests, and tests of various peripherals. There are several places online that describe what the various diagnostics are. One site that I can think of is Henk's site at http://www.pdp-11.nl Ashley From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 2 14:37:19 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Edward) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 21:37:19 +0100 (CET) Subject: PDP-11 booting, RL02 working! In-Reply-To: <6k1jr1tujk380nglaresnoiqvcd6h52jbk@4ax.com> References: <6k1jr1tujk380nglaresnoiqvcd6h52jbk@4ax.com> Message-ID: <20591.62.177.191.201.1136234239.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> You've got an XXDP+ diagnostics pack :) Very usefull to check out your new PDP-11! Ed > More "operator error". Sometimes I think I have mild dyslexia. > > The RL02 Fault and Ready lights stayed on which is usually a sign > of bad cabling (lost clock). Although I had carefully aligned the > IDC connectors while making my substitute RL02 ribbon cable, I > thought I'd save some effort by using a 40 pin header as a > male-male connector directly to the Berg connector (that mates > with the drive bulkhead connector inside). > > However - after considerable schematic, DVM and scope work I > belatedly discovered that this connects the headers in a mirror > image and although left/right can be swapped by turning over the > ribbon cable, the two rows are now swapped as well! The four > corner pins are 3 grounds and the BPOK H signal. Wrong cabling > doesn't hurt anything on the RL8E since the power-ok circuit has a > 100 ohm resistor in the collector of the driver transistor. But on > the RLV12 there is no protective current limiting and the PNP > transistor (MPS-A55) is turned on hard between +5 and the (short > to) ground! Fortunately it just got hot but didn't fry, although > it might if it'd taken me much longer to figure out the trouble :) > > Anyhow this time when I powered up there were no lamps lit on the > RL02 (normal) and after the requisite 15 sec. powerup the Load > light came on. I crossed my fingers and pushed the Load button and > the drive spun up and the Ready lamp lit. So far so good. > > So I flipped the restart switch on the CPU, answered "Y" to > "Start?" and got a message "Please boot from system disk". I have > one other disk pack that is known to have come from a PDP-11, so I > put it in the drive - lo and behold, "Booting up XXDP-XM Extended > Monitor" followed by ... "V2.4, Rev. E1, booted from DL0, 124Kw > memory, Non-Unibus system, restart address 152000, type H for > help". > > Looks like I now have a working PDP-11 :) > > The pack has 727 files on it whose names are meaningless (to me > anyway). XXDPXM.SYS etc. is obvious but there are hundreds of > files from A to Z with names like "VKMHA0.BIN", "ZAFAC0.BIC" and > some .LIB and .OBJ files too. > > What on earth do I have here? Is it something that anyone would be > interested in copying? > > -Charles > > > From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jan 2 14:54:14 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 14:54:14 -0600 Subject: yikes. drifting OT. In-Reply-To: <43B9834A.8020704@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> <200601020557.AAA12745@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060102075726.00ca0ebf.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B9834A.8020704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43B992F6.2040000@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > Now here is information on just what ALL the sonic controls are. > > http://www.tubecad.com/articles_2002/Missing_Sonic_Controls/index.html Oh for goodness sakes... Some of that is inaccurate ("loosen the cabling and the sound becomes defuse") but moreso just as pretentious as the snobbish world of wine tasting, circuit diagrams or not. May I suggest "The Ten Biggest Lies In Audio" as a somewhat related counter-point? Article here: http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon Jan 2 15:04:19 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 13:04:19 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 booting, RL02 working! In-Reply-To: <29851008.1136234133270.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <29851008.1136234133270.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43B99553.9000708@mindspring.com> And to go along with your XXDP diagnostics pack, go to bitsavers and get: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/PDP11_DiagnosticHandbook_1988.pdf which will give you a quick synopsis on how and when to use each of these test programs. Ashley Carder wrote: >>- lo and behold, "Booting up XXDP-XM Extended >>Monitor" followed by ... "V2.4, Rev. E1, booted from DL0, 124Kw >>memory, Non-Unibus system, restart address 152000, type H for >>help". >> >>Looks like I now have a working PDP-11 :) >> >>The pack has 727 files on it whose names are meaningless (to me >>anyway). XXDPXM.SYS etc. is obvious but there are hundreds of >>files from A to Z with names like "VKMHA0.BIN", "ZAFAC0.BIC" and >>some .LIB and .OBJ files too. >> >>What on earth do I have here? Is it something that anyone would be >>interested in copying? >> >>-Charles >> >> >> > >Charles, congratulations on getting the PDP-11 booting! What you >have there is an XXDP diagnostics pack. All those "meaningless" >files are various diagnostics that can perform tests such as memory >checks, CPU tests, and tests of various peripherals. There are several >places online that describe what the various diagnostics are. One >site that I can think of is Henk's site at http://www.pdp-11.nl > >Ashley > > > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jan 2 14:58:46 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 15:58:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: ImageDisk In-Reply-To: <20060102184711.FSOM15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060102081842.777e4cfc.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20060102184711.FSOM15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200601022115.QAA16529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Of course, whether Dave cares about patents in the USA is another >> matter, seeing as how he's in Canada. > Forgive me for quoting out of order, but I wanted to make this point > first. I have no interest in patenting any part of this particular > program (in the USA or Canada), for several reasons: > - A patent would serve to suppress use of the idea. [...] A patent *can* serve to supporess use of the idea. It does not have to; indeed, a number of organizations have purely defensive patents, and at one point I heard of a "Free Patent Foundation", which membership in meant you agreed to license all your patents for free to all other members in exchange for reciprocal licenses to all their patents - and there's no requirement that one hold any patents in order to join. Perfect for those who truly do want to use patents only defensively. (I did a bit of googling and it looks as though there's nothing under that name live now.) If you want to allay any fears that any putative patents could be turned to evil ends in the future, you could grant an irrevocable, perpetual, *sublicensable* license to someone the community trusts (my favourite example is Eric Raymond). > - I have no reason to patent any part of it, as I have no current or > projected revenue stream to protect. That is not the only reason for a patent. A patent also serves to prevent anyone else from patenting the same thing (and then using that patent to prevent you or others from practicing the technique). > - I personally disagree with the general notion of a software patent So do I. But given the broken legal system we live in, occasionally it is necessary to use the tools the system gives, even though they are tools usually turned to distasteful ends. > - Most important! > There is nothing in the program which I believe to be patentable! This is an excellent reason, and quite likely true from what I've read of ID. There's also the point that getting a patent tends to be expen$ive, though I don't know just how much so, and without the revenue stream you pointed out you don't have, that money has to come from somewhere else. It's a tradeoff between the risk that someone else will get a patent and enforce it against you, versus the cost of getting (or at least attempting to get) the patent yourself. So far in my own case it's always come down against going for the patent. I expect it will in your case too.... >>> It's essentially 'published' now. Doesn't that mean a 'prior art' >>> defense will work? >> Most places, I think so. But in the USA, there's traditionally been >> a one-year grace period between publication and unpatentability. (I >> put it that way because whether it's still so I don't know.) > I don't know USA patent law in great detail, but doesn't this refer > to publication by the applicant of the patent What I've read of the situation in the USA leads me to think that the relationship, if any, between the entity publishing the work and the entity applying for the patent is completely irrelevant. Of course, I'm not a patent lawyer in any jurisdiction, least of all the USA, so if it really matters to you, go find someone who is, or at *least* who has actually cared enough to look at the question closely. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 2 15:17:04 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 13:17:04 -0800 Subject: yikes. drifting OT. In-Reply-To: <43B992F6.2040000@oldskool.org> References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> <200601020557.AAA12745@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060102075726.00ca0ebf.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B9834A.8020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B992F6.2040000@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200601021317040791.0CC9A79B@10.0.0.252> On 1/2/2006 at 2:54 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >May I suggest "The Ten Biggest Lies In Audio" as a somewhat related >counter-point? Article here: >http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf I wish someone would come out with some diefinitive answers to questions like "MOSFET vs. Bipolar" or "Switching PS vs. Linear". Seems to be plenty of snake oil in most matters audiophile. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 2 06:14:33 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:14:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Microwriter hard reset? In-Reply-To: <43B52A6C.1070000@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at Dec 30, 5 12:39:08 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Does anyone have a user manual for a Microwriter MW4 chording keyboard-thing? > > Somewhere, I think I do. I'll have to search for it. I guess I should put this project on hold until I get that sort of information. It's a waste of time looking for a fault that's not there. > > > I have one of these > > devices which I am currently running off my bench supply (4.8V) in place > > of the NiCd. > > As you've realised, this is another one of those devices where the > voltage "regulation" is done by the NiCds. Yes. But the fuse (0.5A picofuse) is in series with the battery. So if it opens, the battery is out-of-circuit, but the charger still tries to power the rest of the machine. There is a zener diode (near the battery connector on the PCB) that acts as a regulator under those conditions, I am not sure what the voltage of it is. It is directly in parallel with the battery. Another trap for the unwary is the power switch circuit. There is only one +5V line (connected to the +ve side of the battery), there are 2 grounds, one of the always-on chips (RAM, and the power switch control NAND gate chip), the other for everything else. The power switching components -- the 2 VMOS FETs in parallel near the battery connector -- connect these ground rails together when the thing is on. This is a somewhat neat trick in that it means that all the enable lines on the RAM are pulled to the +ve supply when you power down, in other words the RAM is disabled as you'd want it to be. And I suspect it simplifies driving the MOSFETs too. But it confused me for a few minutes... As regards the chips in there, the CPU, ROM, and RAM are obvious. The PQFP thing under the display is, of course, the display driver. Alongside it is an empty 24 pin socket, this seems to take a 2716 character generator chip for non-English models. There's a 4555 decoder (RAM select and I/O select), a 4001 (mostly for I/O enalbes), a 4054 (latch with level shigted outputs), used for RS232 and cassette out, a dual comparator (cassette in and battery OK), a 4572 (4 NOTs, a NAND and a NOR), glue logic, a triple 3-input NAND (power switch bistable, RAM enable) and not a lot else. The RAM is either 4 off 6116s, or 2 6264s in the sockets nearest the EPROM. There's a set of links in the middle of the board, you fit every other link, either starting at one end or the other depending on which sort of RAMs you have. [Yes, I do have a schematic] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 2 06:17:32 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:17:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 1802 problems In-Reply-To: from "Roger Pugh" at Dec 31, 5 00:56:24 am Message-ID: > > could this be a ram problem. wasnt the rca 1802 used a lot on > satellites due to its reliability I think the 1802 is fine, I think the RAM is probably fine too (6116s have always appeared to be very reliable, rearranging them on the PCB doens't change the fault). > > by the way.. do you know the voltage / power requirements for an > original microwriter.. i' havn't powered it up since i bought it!! What I normally do with something like this is to disconnect the battery and conenct a bench supply set to the same nominal voltage as the battery (e.g. 4.8V for a 4 NiCd pack) in place of it. I ahve no idea what the adapter for the original microwriter was (is this the one with the VF display?). Mine is a later model with an LCD display, it has 4 NiCd cells in series inside and a very simple (diode + resistor) charger circuit. I would guess the adapter was a nominal 6V thing, rather more off-load. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 2 06:20:38 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:20:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: <43B87260.101@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at Jan 2, 6 00:22:56 am Message-ID: > I remember seeing a vast encyclopedia of clever designs when > I was at an electronics class at the technical college in > Colchester. It was a big book of circuits, all just a few > transistors or maybe an IC in the more advanced ones. I wish > I knew the name of that book, so that I could look it up on > the net -- does anyone remember that sort of thing? Any idea > what it was called? I havea couple of such books. The circuits seem to have been taken partly from IC application notes, partly from magazines (i.e. the sort of 'readers circuits' that used to be a popular feature). Some of them sure are clever.... -tony From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Mon Jan 2 15:35:58 2006 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 22:35:58 +0100 Subject: [OT] Patents (was: ImageDisk) In-Reply-To: <200601022115.QAA16529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20060102081842.777e4cfc.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20060102184711.FSOM15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200601022115.QAA16529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20060102213558.GP1298@lug-owl.de> On Mon, 2006-01-02 15:58:46 -0500, der Mouse wrote: > > - I have no reason to patent any part of it, as I have no current or > > projected revenue stream to protect. > > That is not the only reason for a patent. A patent also serves to > prevent anyone else from patenting the same thing (and then using that > patent to prevent you or others from practicing the technique). Well, countries/peoples also build Atomic bombs just to have them and to hinder other countries to use those... That's not neccessarily a good idea. > > - I personally disagree with the general notion of a software patent > > So do I. But given the broken legal system we live in, occasionally it > is necessary to use the tools the system gives, even though they are > tools usually turned to distasteful ends. Copyright and prior art would allow to fight back. > > - Most important! > > There is nothing in the program which I believe to be patentable! > > This is an excellent reason, and quite likely true from what I've read > of ID. Well, patents are most commonly filed for applications in which no normal-thinking ("common sense") people would find one in... Not goin' in-depth, I want to state two things about you (Dave) and ImageDisk: * Thanks for turning down your idea to stop the project. * Though I like the GPL and have published code under the GPL, I'm agaiting the point in time when you think you're ready for publishing (under whatever license you like, as long as sources get available). I probably won't contribute to ImageDisk (not because I don't like it, not because if license issues, just because I got enough other building places and only a negative amount of time is available...), but I probably would like to have a look at it, to (from a practical point of view) understand how a FDC works. So again, thanks for reconsidering your point of view. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 2 15:39:24 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 14:39:24 -0700 Subject: yikes. drifting OT. In-Reply-To: <43B992F6.2040000@oldskool.org> References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> <200601020557.AAA12745@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060102075726.00ca0ebf.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B9834A.8020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B992F6.2040000@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43B99D8C.5020804@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > entious as the snobbish world of wine tasting, circuit diagrams or not. > > May I suggest "The Ten Biggest Lies In Audio" as a somewhat related > counter-point? Article here: > http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf Well I differ in a few points 5) The feedback lie -- Few amps have just the right amount of feedback. Low distortion design then feedback, but who knows what a amp has today with a schematic. 2) I have a 6 watt SE -ultralinear tube amp, and nothing to compare it with solid state or otherwise. 3) Digital CD Audio has too low a sampling rate and often too few bits of DAC. I still like LP's but dirt is the bane of them. Once you get real sampling rates and good DAC's output then Digital is better, but can one get the less mainstream music nowdays on CD. "Those where the days", by Mary Hopkin is a good example. No comments from people in the UK, as I am in Canada. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jan 2 15:38:47 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 13:38:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: SOL-20 keyboard question Message-ID: <200601022138.NAA31399@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi Silcon rubber would work but you'd need to press it to get the lumps out and have a smooth surface. Dwight >From: "J.C. Wren" > > I wonder if one could take a thin stiff plastic (perhaps for >overhead transparencies?), glue it to the foam, and glue that to the >mylar, then start punching discs. I don't know about the gasket cutter, >but I have a tool from years ago that was part of a grommetting kit. >It's a sharp edged steel tool for cutting holes in canvas or rubber, and >is smacked with a hammer to do the cutting. > > You'd need an adhesive that wasn't thick and wouldn't eat the foam. >Perhaps something like "artists adhesive". I think it's used for >mounting photos and such, and comes in a spray can. I do remember it's >fairly thin. I don't know if it would remain sticky enough over time. > > --jc > >Dwight Elvey wrote: > >> >>Hi Bill >> Using the mylar from the balloons seems like the best of ideas. >>It is very thin and would most likely work the best. >>One could get a hole punch from an auto parts store ( used >>for making gaskets ) and make new pads. I have closed cell >>foam that is over 20 years old and still fine, unlike the >>normal foam used elsewhere that ozone and time have turned >>to a gooey mess. >> I would say that this makes the keyboards repairable for >>someone that want to take the time. >>Dwight >> From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jan 2 15:39:49 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 16:39:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: The future of our hobby (was Re: ImageDisk project is canceled) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20051230105323.03a8a7d0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20051230105323.03a8a7d0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200601022141.QAA16690@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> There will never be a hacker-friendly mobile phone for instance. > "Build your own" isn't hacker-friendly??? ;-) > http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php?cPath=66_68&osCsid=9a7294a66c0189537fc6753884400150 I don't see any build-your-own there. All I see is a cellphone, prebuilt and prepackaged, without a case around it and without the audio electronics. Where's the hacker-friendly in that? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 2 15:50:29 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 14:50:29 -0700 Subject: yikes. drifting OT. In-Reply-To: <200601021317040791.0CC9A79B@10.0.0.252> References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> <200601020557.AAA12745@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060102075726.00ca0ebf.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B9834A.8020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B992F6.2040000@oldskool.org> <200601021317040791.0CC9A79B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43B9A025.8010904@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >I wish someone would come out with some diefinitive answers to questions >like "MOSFET vs. Bipolar" or "Switching PS vs. Linear". Seems to be plenty >of snake oil in most matters audiophile. > > > Information is the best cure for snake oil. The biggest new idea is the first few watts audio power is where most of the music and voice is heard rather than how loud your amp is or was in the past. Most audio is 90% status with very few people listening to music 24/7. I often listen to muic alot when I remember the hit to change the CD. LP's I like because they are shorter, CD's are often way too long for say 1/2 hour of music after supper. I am still in search of mid-fi ... something between the $20 gettoblaster and 20K of snakeoil. >Cheers, >Chuck > > From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Jan 2 15:53:47 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 16:53:47 -0500 Subject: datasheet wanted In-Reply-To: <200601020456.k024uw1v019379@mail.bcpl.net> References: <200601020456.k024uw1v019379@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <200601021653.47765.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 01 January 2006 11:56 pm, J. David Bryan wrote: > On 29 Dec 2005 at 15:59, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Anybody have, or know where I can get, a datasheet for these chips I > > have some of that are marked "74S409" and "DP8409"? > > I have an MMI databook with the 74S409 and a National databook with the > DP8409A (they appear to be equivalent). Regrettably, the computer > connected to my scanner croaked recently, and it's replacement isn't due > for two weeks. > > If you still need the sheets at that point, drop me a line, and I'll scan > and PDF them. Thanks, but right shortly after I posted that a datasheet showed up in my inbox... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Jan 2 15:56:16 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 16:56:16 -0500 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> References: <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601021656.16268.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 02 January 2006 12:19 am, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/1/2006 at 9:52 PM woodelf wrote: > >Well unless you want Pantented - our chip only Stereo Am a good, radio > >is still not that hard to build > >or still find parts for. Then, like now Quality is always money. I > >suspect it is distortion using transistors and > >standard diodes or questionable IC's now days. With AM > >radio all loud 80' rock and roll > >people never noticed the distortion because it made that crap sound > >louder and more impressive. > >I think the real term is **listener fatigue**. > > Could someone point me to harmonic distortion data, transient analysis or > some good old scope traces to prove that a couple of 6B4's in class A > push-pull deliver better sound than a pair of MOSFETs can? I'm not trying > to start an argument, but am not convinced that vacuum tubes are better > (having owned my share of tube amplifiers) than semiconductors. Aside from the active devices themselves, tubes are limited by the characteristics of the output transformer, which (as far as I know) isn't there in FET amps. And other things, like the "softness" of the power supply voltage under transient loads and such. > P.S. I use #16 zip cord for my speakers. Nothing wrong with that. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 2 16:18:32 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 15:18:32 -0700 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: <200601021656.16268.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> <200601021656.16268.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <43B9A6B8.5090705@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Aside from the active devices themselves, tubes are limited by the >characteristics of the output transformer, which (as far as I know) isn't >there in FET amps. And other things, like the "softness" of the power >supply voltage under transient loads and such. > > > I use a simple Zener diode & a 'big old fet' from BG-Micro for my power supply in my amp so I really don't have that problem. >>P.S. I use #16 zip cord for my speakers. >> >> From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Jan 2 16:20:41 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 17:20:41 -0500 Subject: Burroughs L-series In-Reply-To: <01C60FA5.6BA60260@ns1.syne-post.com> References: <01C60FA5.6BA60260@ns1.syne-post.com> Message-ID: <20060102222041.A616ABA47DA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> M H Stein wrote: > > The L series was a type of computer that's largely ignored by the > historical community, often written off as _just_ an accounting machine. > > First there was the F series which, along with Monroe and NCR > equivalents, could be found in pretty well every small bank back in > the 50s & 60s. Completely electro-mechanical, they were basically > multi-total adding machines with a wide carriage for ledger cards > and journal paper rolls. If you think a Selectric is a complicated > system of levers & springs, you've never seen the insides of one of > these babies; they were "programmed" with different length metal > pins inserted in specific locations in a program panel running the > width of the machine. Printing was done with type bars for the > numeric data and a type box for alpha (if an alpha model). That describes very well what I remember seeing in my local bank up through the mid/late 70's. In particular I recall a machine with a large number of knobs and wheels and dials that they would put my passbook in and it would compound interest and tally deposits/ withdrawals, stamping out results into the passbook after a good amount of whirrirng and churring. Sometime in the early 80's it became electronic and the dot matrix printing used by that machine was not nearly as legible as the big formed numerals and dark blue ink that the old machine had used! I was always under the impression that the passbook-updating machine was special purpose for that only, and that in the back was the machine that could be reconfigured for other less routine jobs. For a lot of loan calculations they simply looked up the result in preprinted tables (I think I collected a few of the thinner tables at the time!) Tim. From kth at srv.net Mon Jan 2 16:39:11 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 15:39:11 -0700 Subject: SOL-20 keyboard question In-Reply-To: <200601021212160572.0C8E5366@10.0.0.252> References: <200601021712.JAA24464@ca2h0430.amd.com> <43B96804.3040707@jcwren.com> <200601021212160572.0C8E5366@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43B9AB8F.6050606@srv.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 1/2/2006 at 12:51 PM J.C. Wren wrote: > > > >> You'd need an adhesive that wasn't thick and wouldn't eat the foam. >>Perhaps something like "artists adhesive". I think it's used for >>mounting photos and such, and comes in a spray can. I do remember it's >>fairly thin. I don't know if it would remain sticky enough over time. >> >> > >It might be too thick, but the self-adhesive tinted mylar film sold for >windows might be conductive enough and have a suitable adhesive. > > Does the foil disk need to be smaller than the plastic? If not, you could just use one hole-punch on a sandwich of aluminium foil and clear boxing tape. Most hobbyest stores with scrapbook supplies should have round punches in assorted sizes. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 2 16:37:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 14:37:51 -0800 Subject: OT Audio In-Reply-To: <200601021656.16268.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> <200601021656.16268.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200601021437510028.0D139A07@10.0.0.252> On 1/2/2006 at 4:56 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Aside from the active devices themselves, tubes are limited by the >characteristics of the output transformer, which (as far as I know) isn't >there in FET amps. And other things, like the "softness" of the power >supply voltage under transient loads and such. To the best of my recollection, transformers *added* their own particular brand of distortion and limited frequency response. By "softness" of power supply voltage, do you mean "bad load regulation"? Not only do I think that a big part of reproduction is in the speakers, but a bigger part is in the room. It's like the case of my rehearsal room--a string quartet or woodwind quintet or brass quintet sounds marvellous--no echoes, but just enough room reverb to make things sound good. The reaction of most folks when they come over to play is "wow, this is great". Yet any audio system that I've tried sounds perfectly awful in the same room. I use earphones quite a bit. Cheers, Chuck From dholland at woh.rr.com Mon Jan 2 16:40:38 2006 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 17:40:38 -0500 Subject: VMS internals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1136241638.13472.8.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> There's also the "OpenVMS System Management Guide" published by HP/Elsevier. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1555582435/qid=1136241460/sr=8-9/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i9_xgl14/002-3888787-5772825?n=507846&s=books&v=glance Still in print, and available via the old standby Amazon, though you can probably find better pricing, if you look. David On Thu, 2005-12-29 at 21:42 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 9:48 PM -0700 12/29/05, Richard wrote: > > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/ > > > >Awesome, thanks! I admit I'm having a devil of a time finding the > >right information in the labyrinth of hp/compaq web servers. > > I know what you mean, I'm *just* finally starting to understand how > to go direct to what I want. For example > http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/ takes you to the main page, while > http://www.hp.com/go/openvms/doc/ takes you to the above URL. > > If all else fails, http://www.openvms.compaq.com still gets you to > the main page (it's how I've been getting there). > > Zane > > From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Jan 2 16:48:16 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:48:16 -0500 Subject: OT Audio In-Reply-To: <200601021437510028.0D139A07@10.0.0.252> References: <200601021656.16268.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200601021437510028.0D139A07@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601021748.16934.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 02 January 2006 05:37 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/2/2006 at 4:56 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >Aside from the active devices themselves, tubes are limited by the > >characteristics of the output transformer, which (as far as I know) isn't > >there in FET amps. And other things, like the "softness" of the power > >supply voltage under transient loads and such. > > To the best of my recollection, transformers *added* their own particular > brand of distortion and limited frequency response. Just so. Which is why that would also have some effect in a tube amp, and not be present in a FET amp... > By "softness" of power supply voltage, do you mean "bad load regulation"? Yes. Add to that the variations in design, resistors vs. filter chokes and some earlier stuff that used the field coil of the speaker in that circuit, and things get awfully complicated to try and figure, real quick. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jan 2 16:41:57 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 22:41:57 GMT Subject: PDP-11 booting, RL02 working! In-Reply-To: Charles "PDP-11 booting, RL02 working!" (Jan 2, 14:15) References: <6k1jr1tujk380nglaresnoiqvcd6h52jbk@4ax.com> Message-ID: <10601022241.ZM24866@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 2 2006, 14:15, Charles wrote: > So I flipped the restart switch on the CPU, answered "Y" to > "Start?" and got a message "Please boot from system disk". I have > one other disk pack that is known to have come from a PDP-11, so I > put it in the drive - lo and behold, "Booting up XXDP-XM Extended > Monitor" followed by ... "V2.4, Rev. E1, booted from DL0, 124Kw > memory, Non-Unibus system, restart address 152000, type H for > help". > > Looks like I now have a working PDP-11 :) > > The pack has 727 files on it whose names are meaningless (to me > anyway). XXDPXM.SYS etc. is obvious but there are hundreds of > files from A to Z with names like "VKMHA0.BIN", "ZAFAC0.BIC" and > some .LIB and .OBJ files too. > > What on earth do I have here? Is it something that anyone would be > interested in copying? You have the diagnostics. Several places have listings of individual programs, Henk's site being a good example, and you'll find a set of documents explaining XXDP on my site, at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/XXDP.pdf http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/XXDP.ps is the same document in its original PostScript form. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Jan 2 12:51:52 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 18:51:52 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk In-Reply-To: <200601022115.QAA16529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20060102184711.FSOM15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20060102225837.ICEW17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Note, following discussion is mainly "banter" because as noted in my last post, I don't think there is anything sufficently unique to be patentable in this case. > > - A patent would serve to suppress use of the idea. [...] > A patent *can* serve to supporess use of the idea. It does not have > to; indeed, a number of organizations have purely defensive patents, > and at one point I heard of a "Free Patent Foundation", which > If you want to allay any fears that any putative patents could be > turned to evil ends in the future, you could grant an irrevocable, > perpetual, *sublicensable* license to someone the community trusts (my Although I understand what you are saying, it's kind of like "I beat my head against the wall because it feels so good when I stop" - In this case, we are discussing putting a "lock" on intellectual property just so that we can give out the keys...(notwithstanding the argument below). > > - I have no reason to patent any part of it, as I have no current or > > projected revenue stream to protect. > > That is not the only reason for a patent. A patent also serves to > prevent anyone else from patenting the same thing (and then using that > patent to prevent you or others from practicing the technique). This I do agree with (even though I don't like the fact that we have to think this way), and if I felt there was sufficent cause for concern that the ability to analyze a floppy disk could get "taken away from us", then I would persue means to protect it, however as stated earlier, I do not believe this is the case. We do have some protection. I have stated copyright on the code, and have evidence as to my creation dating back when I started the project in the middle of last year (and FDC experience predating that by many years). I have given out copies of it to a few people along the way who could be called upon to give evidence. I have also just "published" the code in a viewable form. There are also other members of this list who have done significant work along these lines - a "newcomer" would be very hard pressed to show "original content" - Like I said earlier, read and understand the data books, and you are most of the way there. And lets face it - commercial interest in floppy disks (let alone old ones) is not exactly at an all time high.... (I really do think we are quite safe). > > - I personally disagree with the general notion of a software patent > So do I. But given the broken legal system we live in, occasionally it > is necessary to use the tools the system gives, even though they are > tools usually turned to distasteful ends. Not much I can say in response to this ... it's true and it sux. > > - Most important! > > There is nothing in the program which I believe to be patentable! > > This is an excellent reason, and quite likely true from what I've read > of ID. > > There's also the point that getting a patent tends to be expen$ive, > though I don't know just how much so, and without the revenue stream > you pointed out you don't have, that money has to come from somewhere > else. It's a tradeoff between the risk that someone else will get a > patent and enforce it against you, versus the cost of getting (or at > least attempting to get) the patent yourself. > > So far in my own case it's always come down against going for the > patent. I expect it will in your case too.... Yes, this is another major factor - Even if I did think it was patentable, I would think hard about the expense of persuing it - I would probably instead place it into the public domain. The only reason I mentioned the word "patent" in the first place, is that it would appear that some of the people most opposed to my source code policy were confusing the idea of "Copyright" and "Patent". By stating that I have not applied for nor received any patents, I was driving home the point that I do not claim ownership in any way of the ideas, techniques and algorithms used in ImageDisk. > > I don't know USA patent law in great detail, but doesn't this refer > > to publication by the applicant of the patent > > What I've read of the situation in the USA leads me to think that the > relationship, if any, between the entity publishing the work and the > entity applying for the patent is completely irrelevant. If that is the case, then the system is truly broken (I mean more than we already know it is) - I don't care how you slice it, taking an idea that some schmuck thought of and published but decided not to buy his lawyer a new boat in the process does not constitute "invention". -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jan 2 17:02:17 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 17:02:17 -0600 Subject: yikes. drifting OT. In-Reply-To: <43B99D8C.5020804@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> <200601020557.AAA12745@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060102075726.00ca0ebf.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B9834A.8020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B992F6.2040000@oldskool.org> <43B99D8C.5020804@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43B9B0F9.1070902@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > 3) Digital CD Audio has too low a sampling rate Incorrect. Unless you have magic ears that can pick out a 22KHz tone from a 21Khz tone, don't say the sampling rate is too low. That's one of the biggest lies. Yes, there are people who say that the inaudible frequencies carry vibration that affects the listening experience, but that's another load of crap I don't want to get into (and the only way you're going to prove to me that your speakers can even reproduce that is to send me a video of an 'scope showing me >22Khz output). However, all that being said: > and often too few bits of DAC. Correct. 16-bit is nice, but 24-bit is actually discernable at most sampling rates (ie. it actually shows up on A/B blind testing with quiet material). What hurts more is that many early 1980s CDs were mastered with *12-bit* equipment, which is why many audiophiles from that era still discriminate against them (even though those problems were corrected across the industry by the mid 1980s, although many post houses still highpass at 20KHz, something I don't necessarily endorse). 48Khz @ 24-bit is the valid audible range of all humans, "golden ears" or not. When I do my own work, I sample at 96KHz/24-bit and work with multiple tracks internally 32-bit, but that's only so that nothing is lost mathematically in my mixing. My end delivery output is still 48KHz/24-bit. > but dirt is the bane of them. Once you get real sampling rates and good > DAC's output then Digital > is better, but can one get the less mainstream music nowdays on CD. DVD-Audio has such technology; so much so that traditionally analog-only artists like Neil Young and the prog rock group Rush are embracing the technology. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 2 17:20:12 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 16:20:12 -0700 Subject: yikes. drifting OT. In-Reply-To: <43B9B0F9.1070902@oldskool.org> References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> <200601020557.AAA12745@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060102075726.00ca0ebf.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B9834A.8020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B992F6.2040000@oldskool.org> <43B99D8C.5020804@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B9B0F9.1070902@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43B9B52C.7030602@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > woodelf wrote: > >> 3) Digital CD Audio has too low a sampling rate > > > Incorrect. Unless you have magic ears that can pick out a 22KHz tone > from a 21Khz tone, don't say the sampling rate is too low. That's one > of the biggest lies. Yes, there are people who say that the > inaudible frequencies carry vibration that affects the listening > experience, but that's another load of crap I don't want to get into > (and the only way you're going to prove to me that your speakers can > even reproduce that is to send me a video of an 'scope showing me > >22Khz output). > It more of the case that music is not just sine waves. It is a mix of everything.. My ears I think are good only to 15khz. but the brain does a lot of processing of information. A square wave -- snap of a twig by a sabar tooth tiger ment life or death for early man, and that is what our ears are ment for. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jan 2 17:38:01 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 18:38:01 -0500 Subject: yikes. drifting OT. References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> <200601020557.AAA12745@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060102075726.00ca0ebf.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B9834A.8020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B992F6.2040000@oldskool.org> <43B99D8C.5020804@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B9B0F9.1070902@oldskool.org> <43B9B52C.7030602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <008001c60ff5$95f0fac0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "woodelf" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 6:20 PM Subject: Re: yikes. drifting OT. > Jim Leonard wrote: > > > woodelf wrote: > > > >> 3) Digital CD Audio has too low a sampling rate > > > > > > Incorrect. Unless you have magic ears that can pick out a 22KHz tone > > from a 21Khz tone, don't say the sampling rate is too low. That's one > > of the biggest lies. Yes, there are people who say that the > > inaudible frequencies carry vibration that affects the listening > > experience, but that's another load of crap I don't want to get into > > (and the only way you're going to prove to me that your speakers can > > even reproduce that is to send me a video of an 'scope showing me > > >22Khz output). > > > It more of the case that music is not just sine waves. It is a mix of > everything.. My ears I think are good only to 15khz. > but the brain does a lot of processing of information. A square wave -- > snap of a twig by a sabar tooth tiger ment life > or death for early man, and that is what our ears are ment for. > > > > You mean the sound of shuffling dress shoes on carpet near your cubicle informing you of the presence of the pointy haired boss. Most people complained about the cutoff at 20Khz because the filters used messed up the sound at lower frequencies. Most people can't pick out higher frequencies in sound, but I think they can pick up the the lack of any content in those frequencies in a quiet room while concentrating (something rarely done). From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jan 2 17:46:29 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 18:46:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: yikes. drifting OT. In-Reply-To: <43B9B52C.7030602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > It more of the case that music is not just sine waves. Well, yes it is, actually. Go back and hit them textbooks... > A square wave -- > snap of a twig by a sabar tooth tiger ment life > or death for early man, and that is what our ears are ment for. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? I am deperately trying to think of a new thread topic or two to get BACK ONTO COMPUTERS. Gimme some help, guys... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 2 18:00:39 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 17:00:39 -0700 Subject: yikes. drifting OT. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B9BEA7.3000001@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >Well, yes it is, actually. Go back and hit them textbooks... > > > So how many tuba players need FFT programs to tune their TUBA? >I am deperately trying to think of a new thread topic or two to get BACK >ONTO COMPUTERS. Gimme some help, guys... > > > We can start aflame war over cp/m vs dos since that fits in the 10 year rule. My Z80 vs your 8086. >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > > Now back on topic -- PDP 11's ... I am glad to see the Witch getting a whole bunch of 11's this last year. So what does most people do with their computers once they have them optional? The PDP-8, the PDP-11 and the PDP 10 are the only computers online over the internet giving a feel of vintage programming. Ben alias woodelf From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 2 18:08:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 16:08:01 -0800 Subject: yikes. trying to go on-topic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601021608010532.0D662899@10.0.0.252> On 1/2/2006 at 6:46 PM William Donzelli wrote: >I am deperately trying to think of a new thread topic or two to get BACK >ONTO COMPUTERS. Gimme some help, guys... Hokay. I'm looking for a single board CPU prototyping kit. Most of what I see are for controllers like the AVR with limited RAM. What I'm looking for is something with linear 20-32 bit addressing space and onboard DMA and > 1MB of RAM. USB or TCP/IP interfaces would be nice, but not essential. 32-128K program ROM would be fine. Anyone have any favorites? Cheers, Chuck From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Jan 2 18:21:37 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 00:21:37 GMT Subject: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <43B9704E.3070408@sbcglobal.net> References: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43B9704E.3070408@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: In message <43B9704E.3070408 at sbcglobal.net> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I believe the Zilog Z80 is still made. At least it was in 2004. > May be a different part number though. The 65C02S is still manufactured - see . -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... Shh! Be vewy quiet, I'm hunting wuntime errors! From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon Jan 2 18:32:32 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 19:32:32 -0500 Subject: yikes. trying to go on-topic In-Reply-To: <200601021608010532.0D662899@10.0.0.252> References: <200601021608010532.0D662899@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43B9C620.9060909@jcwren.com> How about something like this? --jc Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 1/2/2006 at 6:46 PM William Donzelli wrote: > > > >>I am deperately trying to think of a new thread topic or two to get BACK >>ONTO COMPUTERS. Gimme some help, guys... >> >> > >Hokay. > >I'm looking for a single board CPU prototyping kit. Most of what I see are >for controllers like the AVR with limited RAM. What I'm looking for is >something with linear 20-32 bit addressing space and onboard DMA and > 1MB >of RAM. USB or TCP/IP interfaces would be nice, but not essential. >32-128K program ROM would be fine. > >Anyone have any favorites? > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > > From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Jan 2 19:22:28 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 20:22:28 -0500 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: References: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43B9704E.3070408@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <200601022022.28205.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 02 January 2006 07:21 pm, Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message <43B9704E.3070408 at sbcglobal.net> > > Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > I believe the Zilog Z80 is still made. At least it was in 2004. > > May be a different part number though. > > The 65C02S is still manufactured - see > . Speaking of 6502s, I happen to have a whole bunch of those, and some 6510s, and 6522s and 6526s, and perhaps even some 6551 (?) UARTs too. Anybody have anything particularly nifty that these would be good for? I kinda like Garth Wilson's workbench computer, and definitely don't want to go the route that some have gone (found on the web) where multiple floppy drives and writing a bloody dos for it and all that sort of thing get involved. Anybody know of some simple monitor-type software that's out there? And, any suggestions for getting familiar with this stuff when most of my 8-bit thinking is the 8080/8085/z80 type parts? The idea of rom on top of address space and that whole zero-page bit and only a 256-byte stack still strike me as pretty strange... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Jan 2 19:39:00 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 20:39:00 -0500 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <200601022022.28205.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43B9704E.3070408@sbcglobal.net> <200601022022.28205.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <20060103013900.90BFFBA4806@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > Speaking of 6502s, I happen to have a whole bunch of those, and some 6510s, > and 6522s and 6526s, and perhaps even some 6551 (?) UARTs too. Anybody have > anything particularly nifty that these would be good for? I kinda like Garth > Wilson's workbench computer, and definitely don't want to go the route that > some have gone (found on the web) where multiple floppy drives and writing a > bloody dos for it and all that sort of thing get involved. Anybody know of > some simple monitor-type software that's out there? How adaptable is the KIM-1 monitor? IIRC it had both the keypad and a TTY mode where it would use the UART. I used KIM-1's but never got too much into poking around everything the monitor could do/did do. There was also the Apple II monitor with its built-in disassembler (and miniassembler with the right INTBASIC toolkit ROM, right?) It'll have a lot of hooks into the Apple II video range but if those are somehow rip-outable then it might be a start (worse comes to worse, you know that you can use the PR# and IN# hooks for character in and out). And also in the toolkit ROM was SWEET-16... Wow, going back a couple of decades, that was fun back then! Tim. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 2 19:45:39 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:45:39 -0800 Subject: yikes. drifting OT. In-Reply-To: <43B99D8C.5020804@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> <200601020557.AAA12745@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060102075726.00ca0ebf.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B9834A.8020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B992F6.2040000@oldskool.org> <43B99D8C.5020804@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: At 2:39 PM -0700 1/2/06, woodelf wrote: >Jim Leonard wrote: > >>entious as the snobbish world of wine tasting, circuit diagrams or not. >> >>May I suggest "The Ten Biggest Lies In Audio" as a somewhat related >>counter-point? Article here: >>http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf > >Well I differ in a few points 5) The feedback lie -- Few amps have >just the right amount of feedback. >Low distortion design then feedback, but who knows what a amp has >today with a schematic. >2) I have a 6 watt SE -ultralinear tube amp, and nothing to compare >it with solid state or otherwise. >3) Digital CD Audio has too low a sampling rate and often too few >bits of DAC. I still like LP's >but dirt is the bane of them. Once you get real sampling rates and >good DAC's output then Digital >is better, but can one get the less mainstream music nowdays on CD. >"Those where the days", by >Mary Hopkin is a good example. No comments from people in the UK, as >I am in Canada. I'm going to have to take issue with Item's 2 & 3 myself. Before people claim that Tube's don't sound as good (or any better), they need to do some research and some listening tests for themselves. As for #3, I'm a firm believer in LP's, again, people should do some listening tests themselves before saying CD's are better than LP's. I've got several albums on both CD and LP, the differences can be amazing. This includes on albums that came out on both at the same time, and where CD's had been out for a few years. What I want to do is see if I can hear much of a difference between DVD-Audio/SA-CD disks, and LP's (I don't really expect to be able to tell much, if any of a difference). I'd also like to listen to some modern albums that are released on both vinyl and CD. I also agree with the less mainstream music comments. A lot of my favorite music isn't available on CD. Dirt is a problem, the secret is to keep your records clean, in fact I'm hoping to be able to invest in a good cleaning machine sometime in the next year. Also invest in a good turntable, and something to keep the static level on the LP's down. I must confess, these days I'm biased, my spare change is far more likely to go towards the increasing record collection than it is to go towards Classic Computers, and for the past several months I've been trying to figure out if I should buy a Tube-based Amp, or build one. Oh, and I'm listening to an LP as I type this :^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Jan 2 19:47:05 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 20:47:05 -0500 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: References: <43B87260.101@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <20060102204705.06eb1dde.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 12:20:38 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > I remember seeing a vast encyclopedia of clever designs when > > I was at an electronics class at the technical college in > > Colchester. It was a big book of circuits, all just a few > > transistors or maybe an IC in the more advanced ones. I wish > > I knew the name of that book, so that I could look it up on > > the net -- does anyone remember that sort of thing? Any idea > > what it was called? > > I havea couple of such books. The circuits seem to have been taken partly > from IC application notes, partly from magazines (i.e. the sort of > 'readers circuits' that used to be a popular feature). Some of them sure > are clever.... > I think he might be referring to that big encyclopedic book of circuits by John Markus. I don't have the original book, but McGraw-Hill split it out into sections that were published as large format paperbacks. I think the title of the work is: _Modern Electronics Circuit Reference Manual, by John Markus, McGraw-Hill, 1980_. There were earlier editions than 1980. It's a big book about the size of the typical unabridged dictionary. > -tony From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Jan 2 20:11:38 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 21:11:38 -0500 Subject: Status on Big Number Calculations Message-ID: <43B9DD5A.4090801@compsys.to> This post will serve 2 purposes: (a) Let anyone who keeps track note that my e-mail address has changed. (b) My progress in calculating high precision numbers: Background: I want to calculate li(x) for Prime Numbers for 2 <= x <= 10 ** n accurate to at least 20 decimal places to the right of the decimal point. This will require numbers using REAL * 128 = Unsigned INTEGER * 64 / FRACTION * 64 in order to calculate the natural logarithm, log(10 ** n), accurate to about 120 decimal places or 400 bits when n = 100, although initially I will limit the calculation to n = 38. If anyone is interested, I have finally produced 2 FORTRAN 77 (and many MACRO-11 support) subroutines which calculate: (i) The reciprocal of an Unsigned INTEGER * 2 to 128, 256 and 512 bits of accuracy (ii) The natural logarithm of log(p+1)-log(p) where p is an Unsigned INTEGER * 2 also to 128, 256 and 512 bits of accuracy I have also calculated log(2), log(10) and log(log(10)) to 128, 256 and 512 bits of accuracy (well the 512 is probably only 500 bits) so that the values for li(x) can now be done for 10 <= x <= 10 ** n when n is an INTEGER from 1 to 100. At the moment, year end housekeeping tasks will occupy my time for about a month, but I hope to complete li(x) up to 10 ** 100 by around June. The final step with be to calculate the value of log(x) for any INTEGER value of x which also requires the reciprocal of 1 <= x <= 3 (which should be only a bit more difficult than 1/3) followed by modifications to the code to increase the speed of the calculation. I might also be able to write some NEW instructions for the PDP-11 which will execute under E11. Probably the most useful would be an Unsigned INTEGER multiply instruction, especially if it could handle 32 or perhaps 64 or even 128 bit operands. E11 allows this to be done in C and X86 assembler. One possible method might be to use the floating point registers of 64 bits * 64 bits to produce the 128 bit product. That might increase multiplication speed by a factor of 10 (reduce multiplications by a factor of 16). While the subroutines execute under RT-11, there is NO actual RT-11 dependent code and the code can easily execute under RSX-11 and RSTS/E. If there is any general interest, I can provide additional details. While there has been a bit of actual testing using a PDP-11/73, most of the work has been done under E11 on a 750 MHz Pentium III under Windows 98 SE. This provides speeds about 15 times a PDP-11/93 (or about 25 times the speed of the PDP-11/73 for both CPU and disk I/O). I hope to switch to a Pentium 4 sometime this year. Any questions? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From hachti at hachti.de Mon Jan 2 20:20:11 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 03:20:11 +0100 Subject: Bitsavers mirror Message-ID: <43B9DF5B.7090603@hachti.de> Hey folks! I have set up a mirror of bitsavers.org at http://bitsavers.hachti.de It is up to date (today) and I will try to keep it available and up to date as long as my server's hdd space is not needed and the isp doesn't decapitate me..... The server is connected with great bandwidth so use it..... Best regards, Philipp :-) Why isn't there a hint on bitsavers - like a cgi which calls "du -h"....? I didn't know that the archive is around 40GB when I started mirroring it...... From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jan 2 20:22:47 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 21:22:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Bitsavers mirror In-Reply-To: <43B9DF5B.7090603@hachti.de> Message-ID: > Why isn't there a hint on bitsavers - like a cgi which calls "du > -h"....? I didn't know that the archive is around 40GB when I started > mirroring it...... Ask Al? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From hachti at hachti.de Mon Jan 2 20:33:06 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 03:33:06 +0100 Subject: Bitsavers mirror In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43B9E262.8090902@hachti.de> > Ask Al? Think he'll read it here.... :-) From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Jan 2 21:35:52 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 19:35:52 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: > > > > I'm looking for something Unix-ey to run on this 80286 system. It > > has 640KB RAM, and uses prorietary memory modules, so even Minix is > > going to be an extremely tight fit. Mostly out of curiosity, I'd like > > to try Xenix on it. > > I was told a month or so back that Minix 1.5.10 is now available for > downloading. I ran that on an XT (8088) with 640K RAM and it didn't seem > that tight. Minix runs a bit tight in 640K. For example you can't compile the kernel in 640K. I also don't think Minix will switch into protected mode in less than 1024K. You might want to do a Google search to see what state ELKS (the Embeddable Linux Kernel Subsystem) ended up in. It might give you a bit more room than Minix (which was really assuming it would be run in more that 640K). Again that was mostly cross compiled. ELKS, I believe, is small model userland code. Minix (again according to my often faulty memory) is large model. Can't recall which model Coherent used. Don't know too much about which memory model Xenix used. From the looks of it, it might have supported huge model code. Remember that if your system has an ISA bus, you can put more memory right on the bus. There must be a lot of ISA memory cards floating around. (I think I have four in various states of use/disuse). Depending upon the processor speed and the bus speed you might not even get a speed hit for ISA memory. Most 16 bit EMS cards would also show the memory as extended memory rather than expanded. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Jan 2 21:56:31 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 19:56:31 -0800 Subject: PX-8 power supply. Was: Epson PF10 problems In-Reply-To: References: <43B6A7BF.8050408@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 12/31/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > You can replace the old C-type NiCd cells with modern NiMh penlights. > > The capacity is similar and so is charging (using the primitive way > > Epson implemented it). And these are considerable cheaper. > > Any reason not to sue Sub-C NiCds or NiMHs? I think they're both easily > available. I use Sub-C NiMH in my PX-8 and AA NiMH in its expansion unit. They work fine. Eric From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jan 2 22:58:48 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 22:58:48 -0600 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> Eric J Korpela wrote: > recall which model Coherent used. For Coherent 286, memory model was medium (segments were 64K, but you could allocate as many as you wanted up to whatever was left out of 16MB total RAM). For 386, it was full 32-bit, so I guess that's the huge model. Neither version supported virtual memory, one factor in Coherent's downfall. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jan 2 23:09:43 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 23:09:43 -0600 Subject: yikes. drifting OT. In-Reply-To: References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> <200601020557.AAA12745@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060102075726.00ca0ebf.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B9834A.8020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B992F6.2040000@oldskool.org> <43B99D8C.5020804@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43BA0717.1080501@oldskool.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > This includes on albums that came out on both at the same time, and The last time that happened was the 1980s before the technology and engineer education matured. Ultimately, LP/analog vs. CD/digital is a religious argument: It cannot be proved nor disproved. Much like how modern speed is better/worse than oldie thought processes. (See? Back OT :-) Just heed this advice: Don't agree to participate in actual A/B double-blind listening tests -- you will become frustrated and upset. CDs have the better frequency range; LPs have the better dynamic range. DVD-Audio blows the doors off of everything, yet will take a very long time to take off, as CDs and DVDs are firmly entrenched in popular culture and spending budgets. SACD is a mixed bag; it's lossy, but not much, and the current SACD standard is 5.1 audio, 48KHz, 24-bit. SACD is a hack, if you ask me ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jan 2 23:20:42 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 23:20:42 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43B21C80.7070008@oldskool.org> References: <200512042052.MAA18166@floodgap.com> <43937986.3080702@oldskool.org> <43B21C80.7070008@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43BA09AA.4080804@oldskool.org> Jim Leonard wrote: > So, if this is a mono output board, what kind of DB9 mono monitor can I > attach to it? I've got an IBM mono TTL monitor next to me, will that > work? Or was there some goofy brand of high-res mono monitor this board > was designed to work with? > > Or should I just crack the mac and take the board out and sell it on epay? Never got a response to the above, so I'm going to drive to the local Fry's tomorrow and look for that "Mac cracker" someone mentioned -- It's a new store, just opened, do you think they'd have it? If not, is there anything special/exact I should look for? While I'd like to find a monitor that works with the board (again, any hints anyone?), in the end I think I'm going to end up trying to find a home for it. Is there a mac-specific forum for this kind of thing, or should I throw it to epay and hope for the best? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cannings at earthlink.net Mon Jan 2 23:34:54 2006 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 21:34:54 -0800 Subject: 1802 problems References: Message-ID: <000501c61027$6f3a52a0$6401a8c0@hal9000> The RCA COSMAC was the first microprocessor in space. The 1801 flew on an OSCAR satellite launched in 1978. Other COSMAC spacecraft include UoSAT-1, UoSAT-2, later DMSP, Voyager (3 1802's), Dynamics Explorer A & B, Viking, Galileo, and the Space Shuttle (TV Systems). The COSMAC's that flew in space were space/radiation hardened versions using a CMOS / SOS ( Silicon On Saphire ) chip technology. These radiation hardened versions were developed in conjunction with the Sandia National Laboratories. At Hughes Aircraft we used the 1802s for lots of projects with at least the two I worked on running Micro-FORTH ( before FIG-FORTH arrived ). Best regards, Steven C. > > > > wasnt the rca 1802 used a lot on satellites due to its reliability > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 2 23:34:14 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 21:34:14 -0800 Subject: Bitsavers mirror Message-ID: <051D0652-9A29-46E2-A4CC-EF8266C04140@bitsavers.org> > Why isn't there a hint on bitsavers - like a cgi which calls "du > -h"....? The issue hasn't come up before. Generally people have asked before mirroring the site. It is around 43gb right now. Also, I'd prefer that people use ftp rather than things like Wget for mirror maintenance. Wget's of the whole tree sets off a bunch of red flags which normally results in your IP being blocked at the firewall (This happened twice today..) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 2 23:38:27 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 22:38:27 -0700 Subject: yikes. drifting OT. In-Reply-To: References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> <200601020557.AAA12745@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060102075726.00ca0ebf.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B9834A.8020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B992F6.2040000@oldskool.org> <43B99D8C.5020804@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43BA0DD3.9020506@jetnet.ab.ca> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I must confess, these days I'm biased, my spare change is far more > likely to go towards the increasing record collection than it is to go > towards Classic Computers, and for the past several months I've been > trying to figure out if I should buy a Tube-based Amp, or build one. > Oh, and I'm listening to an LP as I type this :^) > Well I find if you have any electronics skill, build your own as you can save a bundle or get what you want. The amp I built 50% of is on Transformers, 50% for tubes and the other 50% is on the small parts, and 50% for shipping and handeling world wide. If I paid non DIY prices my amp is a $1500 US and Matching Speakers $1500 ... for DIY I guess it was about $300 for the speakers and $800 for the amp. Note since you have LP's you may need a pre-amp and that is about $600 Us ... $200 for DIY. Expect other than tube changes well built tube amps have lasted like old computers. The one thing I recomend is a regulated power supply, every thing else is your budget and your bronze, silver or golden ears. > Zane > > > From ama at ugr.es Mon Jan 2 23:53:40 2006 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 06:53:40 +0100 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <438CFB96.4030109@oldskool.org> References: <438CFB96.4030109@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20060103055340.GA30467@darwin.ugr.es> On Tue, Nov 29, 2005 at 07:08:38PM -0600, Jim Leonard wrote: > At work I have an SE30, LC, IIci, and a 603 variety mac just... lying > around. Are these things as common as dirt, or should I snag them? Hello Jim, I have no idea of how common they are since I'm not (yet) into Macs. Anyways, I'd like to give a try to NetBSD on an old Mac, so I could be interested is shipping cost permits. Where are you located? Thank you, ?ngel P.S.: I'm in Spain From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 3 00:19:36 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 22:19:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43BA09AA.4080804@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Jan 2, 6 11:20:42 pm" Message-ID: <200601030619.WAA21174@floodgap.com> > Never got a response to the above, so I'm going to drive to the local Fry's > tomorrow and look for that "Mac cracker" someone mentioned -- It's a new > store, just opened, do you think they'd have it? If not, is there anything > special/exact I should look for? When I went to my local Fry's, they didn't know it by that name, but that's what they sold it under. It's a long-shaft T15 Torx. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Homestar has a web site? -- Strong Bad ------------------------------------- From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 3 00:20:45 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 23:20:45 -0700 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:41:37 -0800. <200512311441370144.02CA564C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200512311441370144.02CA564C at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 12/31/2005 at 1:19 PM e.stiebler wrote: > > >What about very simple 16 bit risc ? > >4 bit opcode, 4 bit destination , 4 bit source 1, 4 bit source 2 ? > > You know, there is a small community of folks using FPGAs to implement all > sorts of interesting architectures, including the one you've just > described. Perhaps it's worth a look... ...and they have 29xx architecure parts as macro blocks IIRC. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jan 3 00:23:23 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 01:23:23 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? References: <200512042052.MAA18166@floodgap.com> <43937986.3080702@oldskool.org> <43B21C80.7070008@oldskool.org> <43BA09AA.4080804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <003601c6102e$336e8960$0500fea9@game> www.applefritter.com and www.68kmla.net are good places to ask about compact Macs (try the forums). Macs crackers are sold cheaply on eBay also. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 12:20 AM Subject: Re: "Market" for old macs? > Jim Leonard wrote: > > So, if this is a mono output board, what kind of DB9 mono monitor can I > > attach to it? I've got an IBM mono TTL monitor next to me, will that > > work? Or was there some goofy brand of high-res mono monitor this board > > was designed to work with? > > > > Or should I just crack the mac and take the board out and sell it on epay? > > Never got a response to the above, so I'm going to drive to the local Fry's > tomorrow and look for that "Mac cracker" someone mentioned -- It's a new > store, just opened, do you think they'd have it? If not, is there anything > special/exact I should look for? > > While I'd like to find a monitor that works with the board (again, any hints > anyone?), in the end I think I'm going to end up trying to find a home for > it. Is there a mac-specific forum for this kind of thing, or should I throw > it to epay and hope for the best? > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From Useddec at aol.com Tue Jan 3 01:02:10 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 02:02:10 EST Subject: DEC H967 cabinets and parts Message-ID: <145.54137690.30eb7b72@aol.com> I have some available, empty or with RK05 or RL01 or 02 drives. Also filler strips, feet, sides, etc. Thanks, Paul From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jan 3 00:51:47 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 01:51:47 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43BA09AA.4080804@oldskool.org> References: <200512042052.MAA18166@floodgap.com> <43B21C80.7070008@oldskool.org> <43BA09AA.4080804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200601030151.47720.pat@computer-refuge.org> Jim Leonard declared on Tuesday 03 January 2006 00:20: > Never got a response to the above, so I'm going to drive to the local > Fry's tomorrow and look for that "Mac cracker" someone mentioned -- > It's a new store, just opened, do you think they'd have it? If not, > is there anything special/exact I should look for? FWIW, when I needed a long handle T15 to open a compact mac, I found one at the hardware department of Sears. They sell a 12" or so long handle T15 driver that works like a charm. > While I'd like to find a monitor that works with the board (again, any > hints anyone?), in the end I think I'm going to end up trying to find > a home for it. Is there a mac-specific forum for this kind of thing, > or should I throw it to epay and hope for the best? Try a "multiscan" VGA perhaps? :) You'll probably need to wire yourself up a cable, and maybe use some tools to figure out the pinout (like a 'scope perhaps). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Jan 3 01:00:35 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 02:00:35 -0500 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems Message-ID: <01C61009.BE8E8880@MSE_D03> Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 20:22:28 -0500 From: "Roy J. Tellason" Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems >Speaking of 6502s, I happen to have a whole bunch of those, >Anybody know of some simple monitor-type software that's out there? -------------------------- AIM65? RS-232 interface, Assembler & ROMable BASIC available, lots of documentation, straightforward hardware if you leave out the on-board display, printer & cassette I/F: 6502, 6522, ROM/RAM & some TTL. >And, any suggestions for getting familiar with this stuff when most of my >8-bit thinking is the 8080/8085/z80 type parts? The idea of rom on top of >address space and that whole zero-page bit and only a 256-byte stack still >strike me as pretty strange... ROM on top of address space??? Thinking of a C64? Data sheets, lotsa books around... mike From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 3 01:13:05 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 23:13:05 -0800 Subject: yikes. drifting OT. In-Reply-To: <43BA0DD3.9020506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> <200601020557.AAA12745@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060102075726.00ca0ebf.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B9834A.8020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B992F6.2040000@oldskool.org> <43B99D8C.5020804@jetnet.ab.ca> <43BA0DD3.9020506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: At 10:38 PM -0700 1/2/06, woodelf wrote: >Well I find if you have any electronics skill, build your own as you can save After this many years, my skills are very questionable, I used to be an electrician in the Navy before I switched to computers, but I've basically forgotten everything I knew. >a bundle or get what you want. >The amp I built 50% of is on Transformers, 50% for tubes and the >other 50% is on the small parts, and 50% >for shipping and handeling world wide. If I paid non DIY prices >my amp is a $1500 US and Matching Speakers >$1500 ... for DIY I guess it was about $300 for the speakers and >$800 for the amp. Note since you have LP's >you may need a pre-amp and that is about $600 Us ... $200 for DIY. >Expect other than tube changes well built >tube amps have lasted like old computers. The one thing I recomend >is a regulated power supply, every thing >else is your budget and your bronze, silver or golden ears. I'm leaning more and more towards DIY, and have been threatening to buy a book or two on the subject (I've been thinking about the books by Morgan Jones, "Valve Amplifiers, 3rd Ed." and "Building Valve Amplifiers"). Part of it is the potential cost savings, and the other part is simply the challenge of building my own setup. I should have pretty much all the equipment I need, I just need parts. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Jan 3 01:35:04 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 08:35:04 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 booting, RL02 working! Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF25D0@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Thanks for sharing your work, Charles. I have a somewhat similar problem, but have not found time to investigate during the last holidays ... :-( I have 3 RL drive in one chain, and two come up "normal". The 3rd has the READY lamp on continuous, right from power-up. If I try to boot (from one of the other two), the READY lamp of that drive flashes once. Then the RUN lamp (on the 11/34) goes off. Checking memory shows that the first word at address 000000 contains 000240 (which is correct, AFAIK), but all next words are *written* 000000. Of those zeroes I am sure, because I filled the memory with 000005 before I tried to boot. So, from your story, checking the cable might be a good idea. And that is done in just a few minutes. BTW, somebody told me (long ago) that you better run XXDP with the WRITE-PROT button pressed (lamp lit) ...! Anyway, congrats on booting your machine! - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 3 01:57:09 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 00:57:09 -0700 Subject: yikes. drifting OT. In-Reply-To: References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> <200601020557.AAA12745@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060102075726.00ca0ebf.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B9834A.8020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B992F6.2040000@oldskool.org> <43B99D8C.5020804@jetnet.ab.ca> <43BA0DD3.9020506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43BA2E55.8000005@jetnet.ab.ca> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I'm leaning more and more towards DIY, and have been threatening to > buy a book or two on the subject (I've been thinking about the books > by Morgan Jones, "Valve Amplifiers, 3rd Ed." and "Building Valve > Amplifiers"). Part of it is the potential cost savings, and the other > part is simply the challenge of building my own setup. I should have > pretty much all the equipment I need, I just need parts. > The web can be your best freind here. The circuit I am using I pulled off the web 2 years ago. My amp works fine but the web page is no-more. http://www.percyaudio.com/ Percy Audio has a wide selection of parts other than tubes. Expect audio quality to be expensive but shop around for the best value and least amount of snake oil. Also take your time a good amp is a work of art, it take time and remember high voltage does not go well with Cats, Kids or Bath-tubs. > Zane > PS. Remember some metal work is involved with most tube amps so keep that in mind. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue Jan 3 01:59:37 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 23:59:37 -0800 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200601030619.WAA21174@floodgap.com> References: <200601030619.WAA21174@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <43BA2EE9.1060800@mindspring.com> Actually the 'Mac cracker' itself is not the long-shaft T15 Torx, but a tool that can pry the case apart without damage after the torx is used to remove the screws. The cracker was simply two thin metal plates with handles that operated somewhat like scissors in reverse. Operate the handles to bring the plates together, insert the plates into the case groove, then apply pressure to force the case halves apart. This can be done without using the cracker (like with putty knives or screwdrivers) but without the cracker (or sometimes even with) the case would be noticably damaged/dinged splitting the halves. I'm not surprised the current crop of Fry's guys don't know what a real mac cracker is -- most of them were probably not even born when it was around. Couldn't find any pix of it on the net. Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>Never got a response to the above, so I'm going to drive to the local Fry's >>tomorrow and look for that "Mac cracker" someone mentioned -- It's a new >>store, just opened, do you think they'd have it? If not, is there anything >>special/exact I should look for? >> >> > >When I went to my local Fry's, they didn't know it by that name, but that's >what they sold it under. It's a long-shaft T15 Torx. > > > From Tim at Rikers.org Tue Jan 3 02:02:46 2006 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 01:02:46 -0700 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43BA2EE9.1060800@mindspring.com> References: <200601030619.WAA21174@floodgap.com> <43BA2EE9.1060800@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <43BA2FA6.3080201@Rikers.org> this one? http://www2.sunrem.com/sun01.w?pt=711-130 -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From vlm at mulhollon.com Mon Jan 2 11:49:21 2006 From: vlm at mulhollon.com (Vince Mulhollon) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 11:49:21 -0600 Subject: relay logic Message-ID: <20060102174921.GA3398@mulhollon.com> Anyone have intermediate to advanced level advice on relay logic? When I was a kid, each relay would cost about one hour of labor, a cheap bench linear supply could only handle about 10 active relays, and fanout ratios were maybe only 5 to 1. Now according to my latest Mouser catalog, each relay will cost me about two minutes of labor, a cheap switching power supply will run hundreds of relays, and I can easily get a 10 to 1 fanout even with cheapie relays. I'm quite well aware of how to make basic gates, FF, counters etc out of relays but I'm curious about anyone elses experiences. I can contemplate all kinds of weird problems like mechanical shock from so many relays clicking at once, or the relay equivalent of contact bounce, but I don't know if they're real problems. Then there's mounting issues. From sleek_maleeq at yahoo.com Mon Jan 2 11:09:18 2006 From: sleek_maleeq at yahoo.com (Salau Abdulmaleeq) Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 09:09:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Copy of the Intel SDK needed Message-ID: <20060102170918.10891.qmail@web36901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi there, I came across the webpage where you mentioned you have a copy of the intel sdk manual. I would not mind getting a copy of it too. I'll need to study it for my school projects. I am a student in Nigeria. I would be really grateful if you can let me have a copy. Thanks a lot. Maleeq Nigeria __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Mon Jan 2 05:59:45 2006 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 06:59:45 -0500 Subject: Collection storage and working conditions In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.0.16.2.20051231080615.043c5728@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20060102065453.04407ea8@boff-net.dhs.org> Airsoft eh? Had a guy I worked with when I was at IBM who did Airsoft tourneys out in Connecticut. I think I'll stick with first person computer game shooters and paintball on the rare every 5 years to decade playing. Heh. As for the guitar, I did notice it was electric and looked like you had hookups to go to your PC's for midi/audio editing work, nifty. Offer still stands on the Bay Networks stuff. The Google group for it is often lacking and only offering basic advice (either lots to do with telephony/VOIP crap and not networking or hey, did you check the network cable- stuff), not really discussing the actual old Bay Networks networking hardware/firmware... -John Boffemmyer IV At 03:25 AM 1/2/2006, you wrote: >And that's a pillow too :) > > >On 12/31/05 8:07 AM, "John Boffemmyer IV" > wrote: > > > Forget that; wtf are you doing with an MP5 laying on the ground in > > open access, half under a red binder? > > -John Boffemmyer IV > > > > At 09:18 PM 12/30/2005, you wrote: > > > >> Gary Sparkes wrote: > >>>>> I've been doing housekeeping with my equipment all week, and > I've finally > >>>>> got it sorted thus far -- http://www.tehproxy.com/room/ > >>>> > >>>> Umm... are these pictures before or after you finally got it > sorted? :-) > >>> These were the after.... > >> > >> What model of computer was the guitar? ;-) > >> -- > >> Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) > >> World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ > >> A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ > >> Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.10/218 - Release Date: 1/2/2006 From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Jan 3 03:03:34 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 10:03:34 +0100 Subject: Bitsavers mirror In-Reply-To: <051D0652-9A29-46E2-A4CC-EF8266C04140@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al, with regard to bitsavers : is there a standard mechanism or approach to contribute material ? Jos Dreesen From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jan 3 04:40:39 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 10:40:39 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Bitsavers mirror In-Reply-To: <051D0652-9A29-46E2-A4CC-EF8266C04140@bitsavers.org> References: <051D0652-9A29-46E2-A4CC-EF8266C04140@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <59772.195.212.29.92.1136284839.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > > Why isn't there a hint on bitsavers - like a cgi which calls "du > > -h"....? > > The issue hasn't come up before. Generally people have asked before > mirroring the site. It is around 43gb right now. > > Also, I'd prefer that people use ftp rather than things like Wget > for mirror maintenance. > > Wget's of the whole tree sets off a bunch of red flags which > normally results in your IP being blocked at the firewall > (This happened twice today..) Wouldn't rsync be better? Gordon. From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Tue Jan 3 05:40:47 2006 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 22:40:47 +1100 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43BA2FA6.3080201@Rikers.org> References: <200601030619.WAA21174@floodgap.com> <43BA2EE9.1060800@mindspring.com> <43BA2FA6.3080201@Rikers.org> Message-ID: On 03/01/2006, at 7:02 PM, Tim Riker wrote: > this one? > > http://www2.sunrem.com/sun01.w?pt=711-130 The one I used to have was "home made" out of a door hinge with two rods welded at an angle onto the two hinge plates. I seem to recall that we had to grind down the edges of the plates to get them thin enough to get into position to crack the Mac. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 07:31:39 2006 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:31:39 +0000 Subject: Free DECstation in Leeds, UK Message-ID: <575131af0601030531w79e22a21pfe1a7a157d08fd9e@mail.gmail.com> Forwarded on, at his request, from an acquaintance of mine on the CIX online service: << Fwd: cix:obsolete/general:6745 tykepenguin(421) 29/12/2005 17:54 ---- Forwarded Message ---- DECstation free to good home Digital "Personal" DECstation 5000/25 25MHz MIPS processor 24MB Memory. 3 disks, one internal (and small). I can't remember the exact capacities, but I think the two externals are RZ56s No keyboard, mouse or screen. Runs Linux/NetBSD/Ultrix - will include Ultrix CD and licence. Collect from NW Leeds only. Patrick >> If you can't decode the header, the email address is tykepenguin at cix.co.uk. -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 07:31:39 2006 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:31:39 +0000 Subject: Free DECstation in Leeds, UK Message-ID: <575131af0601030531w79e22a21pfe1a7a157d08fd9e@mail.gmail.com> Forwarded on, at his request, from an acquaintance of mine on the CIX online service: << Fwd: cix:obsolete/general:6745 tykepenguin(421) 29/12/2005 17:54 ---- Forwarded Message ---- DECstation free to good home Digital "Personal" DECstation 5000/25 25MHz MIPS processor 24MB Memory. 3 disks, one internal (and small). I can't remember the exact capacities, but I think the two externals are RZ56s No keyboard, mouse or screen. Runs Linux/NetBSD/Ultrix - will include Ultrix CD and licence. Collect from NW Leeds only. Patrick >> If you can't decode the header, the email address is tykepenguin at cix.co.uk. -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 3 08:05:50 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 06:05:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43BA2EE9.1060800@mindspring.com> from Don North at "Jan 2, 6 11:59:37 pm" Message-ID: <200601031405.GAA10570@floodgap.com> > Actually the 'Mac cracker' itself is not the long-shaft T15 Torx, but a > tool that can pry the case apart I know that, but that's what the package said on it. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Gravity is a myth. The Earth just sucks. ----------------------------------- From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Tue Jan 3 08:39:53 2006 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 09:39:53 -0500 Subject: NeXT Mono Video In-Reply-To: <43BA2E55.8000005@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> <200601020557.AAA12745@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060102075726.00ca0ebf.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B9834A.8020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B992F6.2040000@oldskool.org> <43B99D8C.5020804@jetnet.ab.ca> <43BA0DD3.9020506@jetnet.ab.ca> <43BA2E55.8000005@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I have a largish collection of NeXT machines, and it's something of a nuisance to have to keep a keyboard, mouse and video around just for them. I think I can handle building a mouse/keyboard adapter, but I wonder about video... and especially the mono machines (I have RGB cables for the colour machines). I know a company *used* to sell something to convert from mono to RGB... does anyone have any idea how this could work (or better, to SVGA)? Any ideas for circuits? From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Jan 3 08:59:03 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 09:59:03 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43BA09AA.4080804@oldskool.org> References: <200512042052.MAA18166@floodgap.com> <43937986.3080702@oldskool.org> <43B21C80.7070008@oldskool.org> <43BA09AA.4080804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20060103095903.62a552ea.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 23:20:42 -0600 Jim Leonard wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > > So, if this is a mono output board, what kind of DB9 mono monitor can I > > attach to it? I've got an IBM mono TTL monitor next to me, will that > > work? Or was there some goofy brand of high-res mono monitor this board > > was designed to work with? > > > > Or should I just crack the mac and take the board out and sell it on epay? > > Never got a response to the above, so I'm going to drive to the local Fry's > tomorrow and look for that "Mac cracker" someone mentioned -- It's a new > store, just opened, do you think they'd have it? If not, is there anything > special/exact I should look for? > I'll say again that I have never had difficulty using an ordinary long-handle flatblade screwdriver wedged into the TORX screwhead to open my Macs. If you're running a Macintosh maintenance facility, get the special tool. Otherwise, you're wasting time and money going after the special long-handled TORX screwdriver. The screws are threaded into Plastic, not anything really difficult to turn screws out of. And I've never had much difficulty getting the case back to slide off once the screws are loose. I have opened four compact Macs this way over the years. It strikes me as folly to spend a lot of time and money chasing after a tool that you'll probably use once. It's cool and interesting to hear and discuss the 'lore' of the special tools used in years past to service and maintain compact Macs. But I feel it's worthwhile to bring up that those special tools are NOT needed. Lack of access to those tools is NOT a barrier to opening a Compact Mac. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Jan 3 08:59:44 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 06:59:44 -0800 Subject: EPROM labels In-Reply-To: <20060101130412.7a71c04a.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <00ad01c608b8$d5621f20$6401a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> <200601010830420176.04AAA78B@192.168.42.129> <20060101130412.7a71c04a.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200601030659440529.024FB9EF@192.168.42.129> Welll..... I never said you really NEEDED the Brady printer, or any other thermal label. I'm just saying it looks a lot nicer, and is easier to read, than a sharpie. ;-) Keep the peace(es). *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 01-Jan-06 at 13:04 Scott Stevens wrote: >On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 08:30:42 -0800 >"Bruce Lane" wrote: > >> Hi, Rich, >> >> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** >> >> On 24-Dec-05 at 13:35 Richard A. Cini wrote: >> >> >All: >> > >> > Just a quickie.what would be a suitable replacement for the opaque >> >labels that one would stick over EPROM windows? I was going to use >> >electrical tape but it's so sticky and white mailing lables leave glue >> >residue. >> >> If you can find one of the older Brady label printers on greed-bay, >such as the LS2000 or similar, there are very suitable labels available >through any Brady distributor (Graybar Electric is a good example) for >EPROMs and other electronic usage. >> > >You don't need the Brady printer to make use of their excellent >labels. > >Just order the minimum quantity of Brady label stock they will >sell you and use a sharpie. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 3 10:10:07 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 08:10:07 -0800 Subject: Bitsavers mirror Message-ID: Al, with regard to bitsavers : is there a standard mechanism or approach to contribute material ? -- Depending on the size, either emailing it as an enclosure works, or if it's too big I can forward an ftp adr to use. 400dpi or higher B&W TIFFs using Group 4 FAX compression is the preferred format (or a PDF of same) though normally I convert everything that comes in to the tumbnail per page format that all of the other pdfs have for consistency. From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jan 3 10:26:24 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 10:26:24 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43BA2EE9.1060800@mindspring.com> References: <200601030619.WAA21174@floodgap.com> <43BA2EE9.1060800@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <43BAA5B0.1040206@oldskool.org> Don North wrote: > Operate the handles to bring the > plates together, insert the plates into the case groove, then apply > pressure to force the case halves > apart. This can be done without using the cracker (like with putty > knives or screwdrivers) but without > the cracker (or sometimes even with) the case would be noticably > damaged/dinged splitting the halves. Is there any particular place you start cracking it open, or should you just "crack" all around the case until it's off? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jan 3 10:28:40 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 10:28:40 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <20060103095903.62a552ea.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200512042052.MAA18166@floodgap.com> <43937986.3080702@oldskool.org> <43B21C80.7070008@oldskool.org> <43BA09AA.4080804@oldskool.org> <20060103095903.62a552ea.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43BAA638.80203@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > And I've never had much difficulty getting the case back to slide > off once the screws are loose. The case doesn't slide; what did you use to pry it open and how much did you mangle the case? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jan 3 11:09:24 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 17:09:24 -0000 (GMT) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43BAA638.80203@oldskool.org> References: <200512042052.MAA18166@floodgap.com> <43937986.3080702@oldskool.org> <43B21C80.7070008@oldskool.org> <43BA09AA.4080804@oldskool.org> <20060103095903.62a552ea.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43BAA638.80203@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <14626.195.212.29.67.1136308164.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > Scott Stevens wrote: >> And I've never had much difficulty getting the case back to slide >> off once the screws are loose. > > The case doesn't slide; what did you use to pry it open and how much did > you mangle the case? I've always found that lying the machine face-down on something soft, then "slapping" the sides of the case upwards pops them off with no damage and no special tools. Gordon. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Jan 3 11:34:55 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 11:34:55 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs Message-ID: Any decent hardware store (and some not-so-decent stores) will have long-shank T15 screwdrivers. I have even seen some longer interchangeable bits that might work. The upper screws are into plastic, the lower screws are into the metal frame near the logic board. All the ones I've taken apart have yielded to slaps on the side and shaking about 1" above a padded surface, but for a while some of the cheaper "Mac cracking" kits looked like they came with a "stationary clip" (the ones with the semicircular spring around sheet-metal jaws). From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 3 11:36:14 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 10:36:14 -0700 Subject: VAXStation 8000? Message-ID: Does anyone have one of these? They are a VAXstation based workstation with a fancy E&S graphics subsystem in them. They had a limited release around 1988, which was when I saw one in operation when E&S did a dog-and-pony show at the UofU. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Jan 3 11:42:40 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:42:40 -0500 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <20060103013900.90BFFBA4806@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200601022022.28205.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060103013900.90BFFBA4806@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200601031242.40172.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 02 January 2006 08:39 pm, Tim Shoppa wrote: > "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > > Speaking of 6502s, I happen to have a whole bunch of those, and some > > 6510s, and 6522s and 6526s, and perhaps even some 6551 (?) UARTs too. > > Anybody have anything particularly nifty that these would be good for? I > > kinda like Garth Wilson's workbench computer, and definitely don't want > > to go the route that some have gone (found on the web) where multiple > > floppy drives and writing a bloody dos for it and all that sort of thing > > get involved. Anybody know of some simple monitor-type software that's > > out there? > > How adaptable is the KIM-1 monitor? IIRC it had both the keypad and > a TTY mode where it would use the UART. I used KIM-1's but never got too > much into poking around everything the monitor could do/did do. I always thought that'd be a nifty machine to get a hold of and play with, but never did, somehow. Last one I saw for sale was way up there in price, not something I was gonna spend... > There was also the Apple II monitor with its built-in disassembler > (and miniassembler with the right INTBASIC toolkit ROM, right?) It'll have > a lot of hooks into the Apple II video range but if those are somehow > rip-outable then it might be a start (worse comes to worse, you know that > you can use the PR# and IN# hooks for character in and out). And > also in the toolkit ROM was SWEET-16... Wow, going back a couple > of decades, that was fun back then! I remember some magazine article dealing with Sweet-16, in Byte? Been a long time, anyhow. That stuff built in ain't that big a deal, my thinking is more toward doing assembly and such on some other box and downloading it. Big question for either of these, though, is source available? Any of you guys have advice on how to get a grip on the weirdnesses of these chips, when what I'm used to is 8080/8085/z80 assembler? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Jan 3 11:49:18 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:49:18 -0500 Subject: 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <000501c61027$6f3a52a0$6401a8c0@hal9000> References: <000501c61027$6f3a52a0$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <200601031249.19016.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 03 January 2006 12:34 am, Steven Canning wrote: > The RCA COSMAC was the first microprocessor in space. I wonder if that's why they were so fond of calling their CMOS "COS/MOS"...? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Jan 3 11:52:22 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:52:22 -0500 Subject: yikes. drifting OT. In-Reply-To: References: <43BA0DD3.9020506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200601031252.22524.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 03 January 2006 02:13 am, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:38 PM -0700 1/2/06, woodelf wrote: > >Well I find if you have any electronics skill, build your own as you can > > save > > After this many years, my skills are very questionable, I used to be > an electrician in the Navy before I switched to computers, but I've > basically forgotten everything I knew. I started with that stuff, and still have those skills, if somebody wants something put together... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 3 12:43:08 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 10:43:08 -0800 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <200601031242.40172.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200601022022.28205.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060103013900.90BFFBA4806@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200601031242.40172.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200601031043080849.11631183@10.0.0.252> On 1/3/2006 at 12:42 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Any of you guys have advice on how to get a grip on the weirdnesses of >these chips, when what I'm used to is 8080/8085/z80 assembler? With the 6502, the big lmitation to me was the very small fixed stack (with no overlow-underflow traps) and the heavy reliance on "direct" low memory cells. No 16 bit operations per se and almost everything you do affects the condition codes. You tend to think about everything in terms of 8 bits, even computing addresses. Things that involve more than byte quantities tend to get very wordy--for example, try writing a subroutine to move an arbitrary number (up to 65K) bytes and compare it with the same in Z80 or even 8080 code. To me, the 6502 has more of a microcontroller instruction set than the 8080/Z80. Cheers, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Jan 3 13:06:13 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 11:06:13 -0800 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: "Zane H. Healy" wrote: I'm leaning more and more towards DIY, and have been threatening to buy a book or two on the subject (I've been thinking about the books by Morgan Jones, "Valve Amplifiers, 3rd Ed." and "Building Valve Amplifiers"). Part of it is the potential cost savings, and the other part is simply the challenge of building my own setup. I should have pretty much all the equipment I need, I just need parts. Zane There is a Dutch magazine with some valve projects that is worth your time to look at. Their projects are well documented. And they offer manufactured PCBs for everything they publish. I consider the magazine the best in the world for the electronics hobbiest. Magazine is "Elektor". It has an English edition, expensive, but worth it. Check their web site out. Seems like they had a few valve projects last year that may give you a lot of hints and ideas. And give you some sources of quality valves. Billy From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Jan 3 13:07:33 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 19:07:33 -0000 Subject: Beehive terminals References: <43B87260.101@gifford.co.uk> <20060102204705.06eb1dde.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <007401c61098$f528c100$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> > > > > I think he might be referring to that big encyclopedic book of > circuits by John Markus. I don't have the original book, but > McGraw-Hill split it out into sections that were published as > large format paperbacks. I think the title of the work is: > _Modern Electronics Circuit Reference Manual, by John Markus, > McGraw-Hill, 1980_. There were earlier editions than 1980. It's > a big book about the size of the typical unabridged dictionary. > I have that, and there is a later one with a similar title, similar size but newer circuits. I have both, but they are currently in storage, so I can't check the title. Jim. From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Jan 3 13:10:37 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 19:10:37 -0000 Subject: DEC H967 cabinets and parts References: <145.54137690.30eb7b72@aol.com> Message-ID: <009d01c61099$6163a9c0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Where are you? If your in the UK, I could do with an RK05 or two! Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 7:02 AM Subject: DEC H967 cabinets and parts > I have some available, empty or with RK05 or RL01 or 02 drives. Also filler > strips, feet, sides, etc. > > Thanks, Paul > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.11/219 - Release Date: 02/01/06 > > From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Jan 3 13:09:49 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 14:09:49 -0500 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <200601031043080849.11631183@10.0.0.252> References: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200601031242.40172.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200601031043080849.11631183@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601031409.49324.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 03 January 2006 01:43 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/3/2006 at 12:42 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >Any of you guys have advice on how to get a grip on the weirdnesses of > >these chips, when what I'm used to is 8080/8085/z80 assembler? > > With the 6502, the big lmitation to me was the very small fixed stack (with > no overlow-underflow traps) and the heavy reliance on "direct" low memory > cells. Yeah, those are the two things that jump out at me all right... I used to think that a bigger stack was a good idea. After playing around some with some monitor code, I'm not so sure any more, and for a simple embedded application that might not be as much of a problem as I'd thought. As for that "low page" stuff? I guess that could work out fairly well if you thought of it as a whole lot of registers or something. :-) > No 16 bit operations per se That could make things a bit more complicated. > and almost everything you do affects the condition codes. And that as well. > You tend to think about everything in terms of 8 bits, even computing > addresses. Things that involve more than byte quantities tend to get very > wordy--for example, try writing a subroutine to move an arbitrary number (up > to 65K) bytes and compare it with the same in Z80 or even 8080 code. To me, > the 6502 has more of a microcontroller instruction set than the 8080/Z80. One of my favorite approaches to using a monitor type setup was to use a dispatch table, which was trivially easy in the z80 environment, just take the "op" code you're passed, and index into the table (and I don't even mean using an index register per se, I never had much use for those). The other thing I did nontrivially often was to take a parameter off the stack as passed, that whole cp/m convention of sticking things in registers always struck me as rather silly by comparison. You wanna pass a parameter to something, stick it on the stack, have the called code remove it, and adjust as necessary. I haven't looked yet at how easy it would be to do that on a 65xx chip. More of a microcontroller? Yeah, maybe. I have some of those I haven't played with much either, 80xx parts mostly, some with rom but that's easy enough to disable and use an external eprom if you don't mind losing a bunch of pins. I just haven't gotten around to them yet. But ever scrapped keyboard has one of those in there. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Tue Jan 3 13:17:34 2006 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 20:17:34 +0100 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <20051231164513.8B0ADBA47E7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> <20051231164513.8B0ADBA47E7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20060103191734.GH1298@lug-owl.de> On Sat, 2005-12-31 11:45:13 -0500, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > > The am2901 is just a chip. The smarts are in the microcode ;-) > > Is there some really interesting documentation available for these > > chips and maybe some microcode for some really simple task? I'd like > > to really understand how bit-slice CPUs do work to form something like > > a VAX CPU. > > At the application-specific level, the classic reference > is "Mick and Brick". I think there's a PDF floating around on the web > but I don't know exactly where. Thanks for that hint; I've just ordered my personal version. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 13:25:44 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 19:25:44 +0000 Subject: VAXStation 8000? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/3/06, Richard wrote: > Does anyone have one of these? > > They are a VAXstation based workstation with a fancy E&S graphics > subsystem in them. They had a limited release around 1988, which was > when I saw one in operation when E&S did a dog-and-pony show at the > UofU. I don't have one, but I remember running into them at DECUS conventions in the late 1980s - 56-bitplane graphics (double-buffered 24-bitplane main video plus an 8-bitplane hardware menu overlay area) and a dialbox with at least a dozen dials. Very nice for the time (and for some time thereafter). -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 3 13:53:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 11:53:38 -0800 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <200601031409.49324.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200601031242.40172.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200601031043080849.11631183@10.0.0.252> <200601031409.49324.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200601031153380131.11A39F77@10.0.0.252> On 1/3/2006 at 2:09 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >More of a microcontroller? Yeah, maybe. I have some of those I haven't >played with much either, 80xx parts mostly, some with rom but that's >easy >enough to disable and use an external eprom if you don't mind losing a >bunch >of pins. I just haven't gotten around to them yet. But ever scrapped >keyboard has one of those in there. :-) The strange thing about history is that it's unpredictable. I'dve expected to see the 6502 architecture (with its 8 bit limitations) find its way into embedded microcontrollers and the 6800 (which feels a bit more friendly to z80 residents with its 16-bit index register and stack) to be at home in PCs. Yet, the reverse has turned out to be true--the 68HC11 seems to be everywhere--and the 6502 has been pretty much relegated to obscurity after some popularity in the first generation of personal computers. One wonders what the Apple ][ would have become had the 6800 been the processor of choice (IIRC, the Apple I had jumpers to allow either the 6502 or 6800 to be used). Which leads me, in a way, to the conclusion that maybe instruction sets don't matter all that much in the real world. Cheers, Chuck From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Jan 3 14:05:27 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 15:05:27 -0500 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <200601031153380131.11A39F77@10.0.0.252> References: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200601031242.40172.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200601031043080849.11631183@10.0.0.252> <200601031409.49324.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200601031153380131.11A39F77@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060103150527.3d1ecc71.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 11:53:38 -0800 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 1/3/2006 at 2:09 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > >More of a microcontroller? Yeah, maybe. I have some of those I haven't > >played with much either, 80xx parts mostly, some with rom but that's > >easy > >enough to disable and use an external eprom if you don't mind losing a > >bunch > >of pins. I just haven't gotten around to them yet. But ever scrapped > >keyboard has one of those in there. :-) > > The strange thing about history is that it's unpredictable. > > I'dve expected to see the 6502 architecture (with its 8 bit limitations) > find its way into embedded microcontrollers and the 6800 (which feels a bit > more friendly to z80 residents with its 16-bit index register and stack) to > be at home in PCs. Yet, the reverse has turned out to be true--the 68HC11 > seems to be everywhere--and the 6502 has been pretty much relegated to > obscurity after some popularity in the first generation of personal > computers. One wonders what the Apple ][ would have become had the 6800 > been the processor of choice (IIRC, the Apple I had jumpers to allow either > the 6502 or 6800 to be used). > It's my understanding from reading Apple History that the superior 6800 was the first choice, but it was much easier to get ahold of the cheaper 6502 part. Motorola was a big powerful conglomerate. MOS Technologies was a hungry newer firm. Personally, I would certainly rather have had the Apple product line based on the 6800. But my bias is showing. From class at fliptronics.com Tue Jan 3 15:00:28 2006 From: class at fliptronics.com (Philip Freidin) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 13:00:28 -0800 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43B718BE.1010300@ecubics.com> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> <43B6E1AD.9030501@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6E7E4.2060806@ecubics.com> <200512311441370144.02CA564C@10.0.0.252> <43B718BE.1010300@ecubics.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:48:14 -0700, you wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 12/31/2005 at 1:19 PM e.stiebler wrote: >> >>>What about very simple 16 bit risc ? >>>4 bit opcode, 4 bit destination , 4 bit source 1, 4 bit source 2 ? >> >> You know, there is a small community of folks using FPGAs to implement all >> sorts of interesting architectures, including the one you've just >> described. Perhaps it's worth a look... > >Yup, the FPGAs are also organized by 4 bits, so that's why it would be >preferable to use something like that. 20 Bits is bad however, as soon >as you like to have external memory There is nothing about the logic fabric of FPGAs that has a bias for 4 bits. You can build (and I have) arithmetic data paths of any bit width, even 17 if it makes sense. The current FPGAs internal large memory blocks tend to have memories with widths that are multiples of 9 bits (8+parity), but they also handle widths of 1 bit too. (note that the 9th bit can be used for parity, but does not have to be). Philip Freidin. Ex product planning manager for Bit Slice products at AMD 1986..1989 Ex product planning manager at Xilinx 1989..1995 ================= Philip Freidin philip at fliptronics.com From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Jan 3 14:58:17 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 15:58:17 -0500 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <200601031153380131.11A39F77@10.0.0.252> References: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200601031409.49324.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200601031153380131.11A39F77@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601031558.17556.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 03 January 2006 02:53 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >I just haven't gotten around to them yet. But ever scrapped > >keyboard has one of those in there. :-) Should say "_every_ scrapped keyboard... > The strange thing about history is that it's unpredictable. > > I'dve expected to see the 6502 architecture (with its 8 bit limitations) > find its way into embedded microcontrollers and the 6800 (which feels a bit > more friendly to z80 residents with its 16-bit index register and stack) to > be at home in PCs. Yet, the reverse has turned out to be true--the 68HC11 > seems to be everywhere--and the 6502 has been pretty much relegated to > obscurity after some popularity in the first generation of personal > computers. One wonders what the Apple ][ would have become had the 6800 > been the processor of choice (IIRC, the Apple I had jumpers to allow either > the 6502 or 6800 to be used). Oh really? Now _that's_ an interesting tidbit, I had no idea those chips were that close, though I do see a lot of similarities between them. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From class at fliptronics.com Tue Jan 3 15:05:06 2006 From: class at fliptronics.com (Philip Freidin) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 13:05:06 -0800 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 18:20:30 -0700, you wrote: >Besides the Lilith Modula-2 workstation, what other computers were >made from the AMD 29xx bit-slice architecture? I believe you can add these to your list: Data general MV8000 Symbolics 3600 Rolm - Mil Spec Nova-1200 Philip Freidin ================= Philip Freidin philip at fliptronics.com From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 15:05:36 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 16:05:36 -0500 Subject: VAXStation 8000? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/3/06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I don't have one, but I remember running into them at DECUS > conventions in the late 1980s - 56-bitplane graphics (double-buffered > 24-bitplane main video plus an 8-bitplane hardware menu overlay area) > and a dialbox with at least a dozen dials. > > Very nice for the time (and for some time thereafter). and with a VAXBI bus and a slow CPU (maybe same as VAX8250/8350) > > -ethan > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 3 15:10:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 13:10:54 -0800 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <20060103150527.3d1ecc71.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200601031242.40172.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200601031043080849.11631183@10.0.0.252> <200601031409.49324.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200601031153380131.11A39F77@10.0.0.252> <20060103150527.3d1ecc71.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200601031310540504.11EA5E1D@10.0.0.252> On 1/3/2006 at 3:05 PM Scott Stevens wrote: >It's my understanding from reading Apple History that the >superior 6800 was the first choice, but it was much easier to get >ahold of the cheaper 6502 part. Motorola was a big powerful >conglomerate. MOS Technologies was a hungry newer firm. >Personally, I would certainly rather have had the Apple product >line based on the 6800. But my bias is showing. Maybe not--how many lanugages were implemented on the 6502, as contrasted with the x80? Was there ever a 6502 COBOL, FORTRAN or PL/I? (I honestly don't know, but I suspect that FORTRAN may have existed). The picture might have been quite different, given the 6800 architecture. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Jan 3 15:22:50 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 16:22:50 -0500 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <200601031310540504.11EA5E1D@10.0.0.252> References: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20060103150527.3d1ecc71.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200601031310540504.11EA5E1D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601031622.50224.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 03 January 2006 04:10 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/3/2006 at 3:05 PM Scott Stevens wrote: > >It's my understanding from reading Apple History that the > >superior 6800 was the first choice, but it was much easier to get > >ahold of the cheaper 6502 part. Motorola was a big powerful > >conglomerate. MOS Technologies was a hungry newer firm. > >Personally, I would certainly rather have had the Apple product > >line based on the 6800. But my bias is showing. > > Maybe not--how many lanugages were implemented on the 6502, as contrasted > with the x80? Was there ever a 6502 COBOL, FORTRAN or PL/I? (I honestly > don't know, but I suspect that FORTRAN may have existed). The picture > might have been quite different, given the 6800 architecture. It'd sure have been nice if the 68k made its way into the pc, too, instead of the 80xxx, which I've never been all that fond of at the hardware level... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 3 15:29:18 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 13:29:18 -0800 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <200601031558.17556.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200601031409.49324.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200601031153380131.11A39F77@10.0.0.252> <200601031558.17556.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200601031329180342.11FB35F1@10.0.0.252> On 1/3/2006 at 3:58 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Oh really? Now _that's_ an interesting tidbit, I had no idea those chips >were that close, though I do see a lot of similarities between them. IIRC the 650x development team were ex-Moto guys. The 6501 (a very rare bird) was pin-compatible with the 6800; after Moto sued MOS, the 6502 came out with only very minor pin swaps. Cheers, Chuck From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jan 3 15:30:22 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 16:30:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 18:20:30 -0700, you wrote: > Besides the Lilith Modula-2 workstation, what other computers were > made from the AMD 29xx bit-slice architecture? If fading memory serves, the Hughes 5118ME mini used 2901s. The 5118ME was (and still is, to some degree) used in Air Defense systems dating from the 1980s, onward. No documentation to back it up, just a vague memory of the times. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 3 15:43:50 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 14:43:50 -0700 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43BAF016.80800@jetnet.ab.ca> Billy Pettit wrote: > >There is a Dutch magazine with some valve projects that is worth your time >to look at. Their projects are well documented. And they offer >manufactured PCBs for everything they publish. I consider the magazine the >best in the world for the electronics hobbiest. Magazine is "Elektor". It >has an English edition, expensive, but worth it. Check their web site out. >Seems like they had a few valve projects last year that may give you a lot >of hints and ideas. And give you some sources of quality valves. > > > Looks ... They also charge for downloads. From the parts lists they look to be good quality amps for 240 volt mains, but the power supplies look to be un-reglated. >Billy > > From emu at ecubics.com Tue Jan 3 15:57:06 2006 From: emu at ecubics.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 14:57:06 -0700 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> <43B6E1AD.9030501@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6E7E4.2060806@ecubics.com> <200512311441370144.02CA564C@10.0.0.252> <43B718BE.1010300@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <43BAF332.2050102@ecubics.com> Philip Freidin wrote: > On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:48:14 -0700, you wrote: > > There is nothing about the logic fabric of FPGAs that has a bias for 4 bits. > You can build (and I have) arithmetic data paths of any bit width, even 17 > if it makes sense. Sorry to disagree here. The LUTs are 4 bit wide, so working with 1..4 bits causes the same delay. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 3 16:09:47 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 15:09:47 -0700 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43BAF332.2050102@ecubics.com> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> <43B6E1AD.9030501@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6E7E4.2060806@ecubics.com> <200512311441370144.02CA564C@10.0.0.252> <43B718BE.1010300@ecubics.com> <43BAF332.2050102@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <43BAF62B.2050400@jetnet.ab.ca> e.stiebler wrote: > > Sorry to disagree here. The LUTs are 4 bit wide, so working with 1..4 > bits causes the same delay. No -- they are look up tables. 4 inputs ... 1 output. What FPGA's don't handle well is wide multiplexers, something CPLD's are better at. Ben alias woodelf From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jan 3 16:15:02 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 16:15:02 -0600 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <14626.195.212.29.67.1136308164.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> References: <200512042052.MAA18166@floodgap.com> <43937986.3080702@oldskool.org> <43B21C80.7070008@oldskool.org> <43BA09AA.4080804@oldskool.org> <20060103095903.62a552ea.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43BAA638.80203@oldskool.org> <14626.195.212.29.67.1136308164.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43BAF766.4020100@oldskool.org> gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: >>>And I've never had much difficulty getting the case back to slide >>>off once the screws are loose. >> >>The case doesn't slide; what did you use to pry it open and how much did >>you mangle the case? > > I've always found that lying the machine face-down on something soft, then > "slapping" the sides of the case upwards pops them off with no damage and > no special tools. I am *so* gonna destroy this poor Mac. Slapping, nipples, cracking... Oh well, wish me luck! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jan 3 16:23:46 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 17:23:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: yikes. drifting OT. In-Reply-To: References: <200601011229190853.077795C7@10.0.0.252> <200601011831.45587.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43B8B189.6020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601012119470716.095D3900@10.0.0.252> <200601020557.AAA12745@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060102075726.00ca0ebf.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43B9834A.8020704@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B992F6.2040000@oldskool.org> <43B99D8C.5020804@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200601032228.RAA26858@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > As for #3, I'm a firm believer in LP's, again, people should do some > listening tests themselves before saying CD's are better than LP's. Well, actually, for me, CDs are better than LPs for reasons that have nothing to do with sound quality. Put that together with sound quality that's "good enough" (= my sound-system-plus-ears isn't good enough to hear the differences), and it's a no-brainer. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From charlesmorris at direcway.com Tue Jan 3 16:31:09 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 16:31:09 -0600 Subject: More RLV12/RL02 problems (faults on Write) Message-ID: Re: my PDP-11 (KDF11-BA QBus CPU) with RL02 and RLV12 controller: Although I can read from my RL02 fine, and run the various XXDP diagnostics, any attempt to *write* to the disk instantly causes the heads to retract, the LOAD light to go out, and the FAULT lamp to stay on. The write protect lamp works with the button and was not on. Running the diagnostics VRLB?? (Diskless Controller Test) & ZRLG?? (Controller Test 1) pass with no errors. However, ZRLH?? (Controller Test 2, the first test that writes to the disk) fails as follows: CZRLH DVC FTL ERR 00300 ON UNIT 00 TST 002 SUB 000 PC:015044 RLCS HAD FOLLOWING ERR(S): COMP DRV WRT OP-INTR MODE BEFORE COMMAND CS: 000313 BA: 003426 DA: 000000 MP: 000000 TIME OF ERROR: CS: 140312 BA: 004026 DA: 000001 MP: 000667 003400 174000 followed immediately by another fatal error "COMP OPI RD HDR OPR'TN-FLAG MODE". While the RL02 was still in Fault mode, I also entered the "Toggle-In Program" from the RL02 Disk Subsystem User's Guide, Appendix C and it returned 102210 which is WGE (Write Gate Error) i.e. either Write Protect was set, or a sector pulse occurred during the write operation. I think I should be looking inside the RL02 on the logic board but can someone with more diagnostic-pack experience tell me if this is actually a controller problem? thanks Charles From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 3 16:36:59 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 15:36:59 -0700 Subject: yikes. drifting OT. In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 03 Jan 2006 17:23:46 -0500. <200601032228.RAA26858@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: > > As for #3, I'm a firm believer in LP's, again, people should do some > > listening tests themselves before saying CD's are better than LP's. I did plenty of listening tests back in the day when CDs were introduced. Nowadays CDs sound *even better* because originally CDs were pressed with the master tapes that were mixed for the sound reproducing abilities of vinyl. Now they have remastered older content for CDs and it sounds even better than before. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Jan 3 16:33:30 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 17:33:30 -0500 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - Message-ID: <01C6108B.D4957120@MSE_D03> From: "Roy J. Tellason" Subject: Re: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems >Big question for either of these, though, is source available? KIM and AIM65 data sheets, schematics & monitor source listings can be found on R. Cini's excellent site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ m From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jan 3 16:52:40 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 22:52:40 GMT Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <200601031242.40172.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200601022022.28205.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060103013900.90BFFBA4806@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200601031242.40172.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: In message <200601031242.40172.rtellason at blazenet.net> "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > I always thought that'd be a nifty machine to get a hold of and play with, > but never did, somehow. Last one I saw for sale was way up there in price, > not something I was gonna spend... So I've noticed. Prices for SYM-1s are just as bad. I would love to get my hands on a KIM-1 or a SYM-1 (aka SY-VIM-1)... Or an AIM-65 for that matter. Anything's good, as long as it's 6502 powered :) > I remember some magazine article dealing with Sweet-16, in Byte? Been a long > time, anyhow. That stuff built in ain't that big a deal, my thinking is > more toward doing assembly and such on some other box and downloading it. I think there's an article about it on ... -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... Answers: $1, Short: $5, Correct: $25, dumb looks are still free. From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jan 3 17:13:49 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 00:13:49 +0100 Subject: Bitsavers mirror In-Reply-To: <051D0652-9A29-46E2-A4CC-EF8266C04140@bitsavers.org> References: <051D0652-9A29-46E2-A4CC-EF8266C04140@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <43BB052D.2090407@hachti.de> Hi, > The issue hasn't come up before. Generally people have asked before > mirroring the site. It is around 43gb right now. Oh, sorry. I used the classiccmp.org mirror. I have got only 39 GB. But it should be possible to fix missing stuff. > Also, I'd prefer that people use ftp rather than things like Wget > for mirror maintenance. Ok. How to to that (automagically)? > Wget's of the whole tree sets off a bunch of red flags which > normally results in your IP being blocked at the firewall > (This happened twice today..) Did not try your site...... Best regards, Philipp :-) From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Tue Jan 3 18:01:38 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J. Blaser) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 17:01:38 -0700 Subject: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner In-Reply-To: <200601031801.k03I1j8W057800@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601031801.k03I1j8W057800@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43BB1062.1010303@rogerwilco.org> Greetings to all, and here's to 2006! My first post, though I have skulked for months...still, consider me a PDP newbie... I've recently acquired a fully functional PDP-11/23plus with the idea that I'd re-acquaint myself with RSTS/E which happened to be the first system I was actually paid to program on. Trouble is, it was a short stint with this local VAR, and it was nearly 30 years ago! I don't even remember what the systems were exactly, though I think they were 11/40s. Stangely, these systems were in blue cabinets (did DEC ever do blue?), with none of the typical maroon or red PDP-11 signature color...that is until the LSI models started showing up in white, which is what I've got. Anyway, I'm now happily in the process of re-assembling the system and preparing for my first power up since getting it home. The configuration I have is in a double-wide 40" tall rack unit. Each rack or 'bay' between the three uprights has a 874-A power conditioner / power-strip unit that I'm trying to understand. I haven't been able to find any references to this component. Though I could just replicate the configuration that it had before being relocated (switches, wiring, etc.), which I have plenty of photos of, I'd like to understand this compenent better. Since I have a double-wide cabinet, I've got two of these units that are linked together with a 3-conductor cable, each end plugged into one of the four "Power Control Bus"-labeled sockets. One 874-A also has another connection from a second "PCB" socket to the the 11/23+ processor box. My guess is this line somehow is controlled by the front panel AUX ON/OFF switch. Also, each of the 874-A units has a small 3-position toggle switch: 'Remote On', 'Off', and 'Local On'. Before I go much further with experimenting on my own, I wonder if anyone here knows these units and can offer some info about how these units tie together and what settings do what. Comments? J. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jan 3 18:42:01 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 00:42:01 GMT Subject: HP logic analysers - IAs and utils? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c83afe34d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message Erik Baigar wrote: > Maybe the linux-gpib-project's people are interested as > well (search for "hp1630 logic analyzer sourceforge" within > google groups). I'll look into that - thanks. > Last but not least I consider the HP1600 analyzers very > well suited for debugging and maintaining classic comps > and I am happy to have one ;-) Heh, same here. It's a fantastic tool for debugging 6502 code :) -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... Wibble Wobble Fishcakes. From emu at ecubics.com Tue Jan 3 18:58:20 2006 From: emu at ecubics.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 17:58:20 -0700 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43BAF62B.2050400@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> <43B6E1AD.9030501@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6E7E4.2060806@ecubics.com> <200512311441370144.02CA564C@10.0.0.252> <43B718BE.1010300@ecubics.com> <43BAF332.2050102@ecubics.com> <43BAF62B.2050400@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43BB1DAC.7050108@ecubics.com> woodelf wrote: > e.stiebler wrote: > >> >> Sorry to disagree here. The LUTs are 4 bit wide, so working with 1..4 >> bits causes the same delay. > > > No -- they are look up tables. 4 inputs ... 1 output. I was hoping that I wrote exactly that. That this are four input LUTs ;-) Sorry, I dropped the 1 output, which caused more confusion ... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 3 18:20:04 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:20:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: relay logic In-Reply-To: <20060102174921.GA3398@mulhollon.com> from "Vince Mulhollon" at Jan 2, 6 11:49:21 am Message-ID: > I'm quite well aware of how to make basic gates, FF, counters etc out of > relays but I'm curious about anyone elses experiences. I can contemplate > all kinds of weird problems like mechanical shock from so many relays I've never heard of that being a problem. None of the books I have on telephone exchanges (which used thousands of relays) mention it. > clicking at once, or the relay equivalent of contact bounce, but I don't Countact bounce shouldn't be a problem either (well, maybe if you're interconnecting very different relays, trying to control a high-speed reed relay from a much slower type thing...). The response time of the driven relay won't be fast enough to respond to contact bounce. Be warned if you look at some of the telephone exchange circuits that they used (at least in the UK) some odd relays. Not only make-before-break changeover contacts, but also slow-energise and slow-releasy relays (copper 'slugs' in the coil was one way to get this IIRC). You may have problems finding that. Incidentally, I made a relay flup-flop without realising it a few months back. I had a pair of contactors (high-power relays, basically) that were mechnaically interlocked so they couldn't both close together and electrically interlocked so that the 2 coils couldn't be energised at the same time. The latter was done by feeding each coil through a normally-closed contact on the other contactor. Anyway, if I turned on the supply to one contactor (let's call it 'A'), it pulled in. Turning on the supply to the other one ('B') did nothing (since the current path to B's coil was broken by the NC contact on A). But now if I turned off A's coild supply, A dropped out and B pulled in. I could then turn on the supply to A again and nothing happened until I momentarily opened the supply to B. Of course this is exactly what was supposed to happen and I fairly quickly relaised it was logically equivalent to a pair of cross-coupled NOR gates -- the classic Eccles-Jordan circuit. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 3 18:24:28 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:24:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: from "Eric J Korpela" at Jan 2, 6 07:35:52 pm Message-ID: > > I was told a month or so back that Minix 1.5.10 is now available for > > downloading. I ran that on an XT (8088) with 640K RAM and it didn't seem > > that tight. > > Minix runs a bit tight in 640K. For example you can't compile the > kernel in 640K. I also don't think Minix will switch into protected That's odd.... I am darn sure my XT has 640K -- I fitted the chips myself. And I remember modifying and recompiling the 1.5.10 kernel on that machine. > mode in less than 1024K. You might want to do a Google search to see > what state ELKS (the Embeddable Linux Kernel Subsystem) ended up in. Can ELKS recompile itself? I got the impression that you built it on a normal (386+) linux box and transfered the binaries over. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 3 18:51:56 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:51:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <20060103095903.62a552ea.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jan 3, 6 09:59:03 am Message-ID: > > > I'll say again that I have never had difficulty using an ordinary > long-handle flatblade screwdriver wedged into the TORX screwhead If you do this and mangle the heads of the screws sufficiently that you can't turn them with the right tool either, you are going to have one hell of a job drilling them out. I never bought a specail tool to open Macs. I just used the Xcellite System 99 Torx drivers with the X5 extension. Fits perfectly, and it's in my normal toolkit. > to open my Macs. If you're running a Macintosh maintenance > facility, get the special tool. Otherwise, you're wasting time > and money going after the special long-handled TORX screwdriver. > The screws are threaded into Plastic, not anything really > difficult to turn screws out of. > > And I've never had much difficulty getting the case back to slide > off once the screws are loose. I have opened four compact Macs It's perhaps worth mentioning that the easiest way to remove the case is to put the Mac front (screen side) down and pull the case off upwards. Same with most monitors, actually. > this way over the years. It strikes me as folly to spend a lot > of time and money chasing after a tool that you'll probably use > once. Maybe I;m odd, but I like to have the right tools to do the job. I even make them if necessary (see the post a few weeks ago when I described how to make the alignment tools of the HP7245A printer/plotter. I can't believe I am ever likely to use those very often...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 3 18:27:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:27:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Bitsavers mirror In-Reply-To: <051D0652-9A29-46E2-A4CC-EF8266C04140@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jan 2, 6 09:34:14 pm Message-ID: > > Also, I'd prefer that people use ftp rather than things like Wget > for mirror maintenance. A somewhat related question. Is there any way to use ftp to access the bitsavers software archive? It would be a lot more convenient for me to ftp some of the disk images, I think. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 3 18:30:55 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:30:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43BA2EE9.1060800@mindspring.com> from "Don North" at Jan 2, 6 11:59:37 pm Message-ID: > > Actually the 'Mac cracker' itself is not the long-shaft T15 Torx, but a > tool that can pry the case apart I thought a few week ago somebody posted here that the Mac Cracker was the long-sharft TX15, the Case Cracker was the oversixed bulldog clip. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 3 18:59:08 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:59:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - In-Reply-To: <200601031310540504.11EA5E1D@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 3, 6 01:10:54 pm Message-ID: > > Maybe not--how many lanugages were implemented on the 6502, as contrasted > with the x80? Was there ever a 6502 COBOL, FORTRAN or PL/I? (I honestly > don't know, but I suspect that FORTRAN may have existed). The picture Not really native 6502, but there was a Fortan complier for the UCSD P-system on the Apple ][. Of course it compiled to p-code, but the whole thing did run on a 6502 machine. What languages were available for the BBC Micro (without a second processor[1]), I wonder. I know about BASIC, Pascal, Forth, Lisp [1] With the Z80 second processor you could run CP/M, which means just about any language, of course. There were certainly BASIC, Pascal and C for the 32016 second processor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 3 19:16:03 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 01:16:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner In-Reply-To: <43BB1062.1010303@rogerwilco.org> from "J. Blaser" at Jan 3, 6 05:01:38 pm Message-ID: > or 'bay' between the three uprights has a 874-A power conditioner / > power-strip unit that I'm trying to understand. I haven't been able to > find any references to this component. Though I could just replicate > the configuration that it had before being relocated (switches, wiring, > etc.), which I have plenty of photos of, I'd like to understand this > compenent better. > > Since I have a double-wide cabinet, I've got two of these units that are > linked together with a 3-conductor cable, each end plugged into one of > the four "Power Control Bus"-labeled sockets. One 874-A also has > another connection from a second "PCB" socket to the the 11/23+ > processor box. My guess is this line somehow is controlled by the front > panel AUX ON/OFF switch. > > Also, each of the 874-A units has a small 3-position toggle switch: > 'Remote On', 'Off', and 'Local On'. Before I go much further with > experimenting on my own, I wonder if anyone here knows these units and > can offer some info about how these units tie together and what settings > do what. Comments? All thse DEC power controllers are basically the same, although the internal circuitry differs somwahat. They contain a large relay (contactor) that controls the mains to the switched socket outputes on the unit. This is controlled by some simple-ish electronics in the unit (IIRC, the 861 controller used a differentially-wound reed relay!) Anyway, the 3 positions of the toggle switch mean Off : The contactor is always off, no matter what happens on the power control bus Local On : The contactor pulls in, it can be turned off by the shutdown line on the power control bus, though. Remote On : The contactor is controlled by the power control bus The 3 wires in the power control bus are : Ground, Ground-for-on (which is how you turn on the contactor in the Remote-On mode), and Ground-for-off (which is a shutdown line that will turn off the contactor no matter what it telling it to be on). There is no latching associated with this, toy can control the contactor using the ground-for-on line only. Typically, overheating-detection thermoswitches are connected between the ground wire and the ground-for-off wire. If any part of the machine overheats, the power controllers turn off the power to everything. The frontpanel switch is wired between the ground and ground-for-on wires. Thus the frontpanel switch can be used to turn on (and turn off) the contactors in all the power controllers in the machine. I would guess (without seeing you system) that the 3 pin socket on the CPU box is wired so that you just plug the power control bus cable in there and it will connect the switch contacts between ground and ground-for-on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 3 19:18:44 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 01:18:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More RLV12/RL02 problems (faults on Write) In-Reply-To: from "Charles" at Jan 3, 6 04:31:09 pm Message-ID: > While the RL02 was still in Fault mode, I also entered the > "Toggle-In Program" from the RL02 Disk Subsystem User's Guide, > Appendix C and it returned 102210 which is WGE (Write Gate Error) > i.e. either Write Protect was set, or a sector pulse occurred > during the write operation. > > I think I should be looking inside the RL02 on the logic board but > can someone with more diagnostic-pack experience tell me if this > is actually a controller problem? I think it could be either. What it basically means is that the drive detected a write-gate signal to be asserted at the time when the servo bursts are about to come round -- that is outside the user data area. To protect the impossible-to-rewrite factory formatting, the drive disables write and retracts the heads if this happens. It could either be a fault in the drive (holding the write-gate line on), but this is unliely given that it reads correctly, or a problem with the controller which asserts weite-gate for too long, or when it shouldn't. -tony From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Jan 3 19:28:10 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 20:28:10 -0500 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <200601031242.40172.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200601022022.28205.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060103013900.90BFFBA4806@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200601031242.40172.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <20060104012810.B3A30BA4808@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > On Monday 02 January 2006 08:39 pm, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > > > Speaking of 6502s, I happen to have a whole bunch of those, and some > > > 6510s, and 6522s and 6526s, and perhaps even some 6551 (?) UARTs too. > > > Anybody have anything particularly nifty that these would be good for? I > > > kinda like Garth Wilson's workbench computer, and definitely don't want > > > to go the route that some have gone (found on the web) where multiple > > > floppy drives and writing a bloody dos for it and all that sort of thing > > > get involved. Anybody know of some simple monitor-type software that's > > > out there? > > > > How adaptable is the KIM-1 monitor? IIRC it had both the keypad and > > a TTY mode where it would use the UART. I used KIM-1's but never got too > > much into poking around everything the monitor could do/did do. > > I always thought that'd be a nifty machine to get a hold of and play with, > but never did, somehow. Last one I saw for sale was way up there in price, > not something I was gonna spend... Well, if you've got some of the chips and want to do some wire-wrapping or soldering, you can buy the additional chips you need and put one together without a lot of effort. Schematics on the web at Rich Cini's site. > > There was also the Apple II monitor with its built-in disassembler > > (and miniassembler with the right INTBASIC toolkit ROM, right?) It'll have > > a lot of hooks into the Apple II video range but if those are somehow > > rip-outable then it might be a start (worse comes to worse, you know that > > you can use the PR# and IN# hooks for character in and out). And > > also in the toolkit ROM was SWEET-16... Wow, going back a couple > > of decades, that was fun back then! > > I remember some magazine article dealing with Sweet-16, in Byte? Been a long > time, anyhow. That stuff built in ain't that big a deal, my thinking is > more toward doing assembly and such on some other box and downloading it. > > Big question for either of these, though, is source available? The Apple II monitor had a complete commented listing in the back of the book that came with it. (for a II it was the "red book", II+'s come with a listing too at the end of the hardware manual.) I'm sure Rich Cini's site has the source to the KIM-1 monitor. Tim. From emu at ecubics.com Tue Jan 3 19:24:23 2006 From: emu at ecubics.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 18:24:23 -0700 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43B718BE.1010300@ecubics.com> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> <43B6E1AD.9030501@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6E7E4.2060806@ecubics.com> <200512311441370144.02CA564C@10.0.0.252> <43B718BE.1010300@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <43BB23C7.3070102@ecubics.com> e.stiebler wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 12/31/2005 at 1:19 PM e.stiebler wrote: >> >>> What about very simple 16 bit risc ? >>> 4 bit opcode, 4 bit destination , 4 bit source 1, 4 bit source 2 ? >> You know, there is a small community of folks using FPGAs to implement >> all >> sorts of interesting architectures, including the one you've just >> described. Perhaps it's worth a look... > Yup, the FPGAs are also organized by 4 bits, so that's why it would be > preferable to use something like that. 20 Bits is bad however, as soon > as you like to have external memory Ok, I have to correct myself here, as it is completely misleading. I had the 4input/1output lookup table in mind, in use for an instruction decoder. Besides of that, yes, one can use an FPGA to do whatever bitsize one likes ;-) From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Jan 3 19:35:58 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 19:35:58 -0600 Subject: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner In-Reply-To: <43BB1062.1010303@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: Welcome to the list! The 874 is connected into the 11/23 box so that you can turn the system on from the front panel. The idea is to flip the switch on the 874 to "remote on" (meaning from the front panel switch, "local on" will turn everything on regardless of the position of the front panel switch.) What's in the rest of the cabinet? I'm curious about your configuration, as I've built my own 11/23plus (two RL02s, SCSI, TK50, 9track, crystalfontz display, dectalk, Ethernet). Get in contact with me if you need some help getting RSTS/E set up. It can be a pain if you've been rusty for awhile. Julian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of J. Blaser > Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 6:02 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner > > Greetings to all, and here's to 2006! > > My first post, though I have skulked for months...still, consider me a > PDP newbie... > > I've recently acquired a fully functional PDP-11/23plus with the idea > that I'd re-acquaint myself with RSTS/E which happened to be the first > system I was actually paid to program on. Trouble is, it was a short > stint with this local VAR, and it was nearly 30 years ago! I don't even > remember what the systems were exactly, though I think they were > 11/40s. Stangely, these systems were in blue cabinets (did DEC ever do > blue?), with none of the typical maroon or red PDP-11 signature > color...that is until the LSI models started showing up in white, which > is what I've got. > > Anyway, I'm now happily in the process of re-assembling the system and > preparing for my first power up since getting it home. The > configuration I have is in a double-wide 40" tall rack unit. Each rack > or 'bay' between the three uprights has a 874-A power conditioner / > power-strip unit that I'm trying to understand. I haven't been able to > find any references to this component. Though I could just replicate > the configuration that it had before being relocated (switches, wiring, > etc.), which I have plenty of photos of, I'd like to understand this > compenent better. > > Since I have a double-wide cabinet, I've got two of these units that are > linked together with a 3-conductor cable, each end plugged into one of > the four "Power Control Bus"-labeled sockets. One 874-A also has > another connection from a second "PCB" socket to the the 11/23+ > processor box. My guess is this line somehow is controlled by the front > panel AUX ON/OFF switch. > > Also, each of the 874-A units has a small 3-position toggle switch: > 'Remote On', 'Off', and 'Local On'. Before I go much further with > experimenting on my own, I wonder if anyone here knows these units and > can offer some info about how these units tie together and what settings > do what. Comments? > > J. From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jan 3 15:32:33 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 21:32:33 +0000 Subject: Compupro 8085/8088 switchover problem. Message-ID: <20060104013929.DKAD17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Hi Guys, Been working on my Compupro system over the holidays - got the 8086/8087 system booting CP/M-86 reliably finally (yeah!). Also have an 8085/8088 CPU that I am trying to get running. All other parts of the system are exactly the same config except that the boot ROM selection is (0) 8080 standard boot instead of (4) 8086 standard boot. The system starts in 8085 mode, and always boots CP/M 2.2 (8080) reliably. I have a couple of different 8/16 boot disks which have an 8085 first stage boot, which then switches to the 8088 and loads CP/M-86. So far I have managed to make the system boot CP/M-86 three times (and only three times) from two different disks in this configuration. In all three cases, once it booted, CP/M-86 ran reliably as well (I even tried tapping on the cards to detect physical problems, and it runs perfectly). On every other boot attempt (and there have been quite a few), I can observe the system load the first block (head load/unload), and then load another block (head load/unload) after which it goes silent. If I put in an 8086 boot disk (which would be "invalid boot code" to the 8085, the system dies after reading the first block - which suggests that it always gets at least part way into the boot cycle. My guess is that it is not transitioning into 8088 mode correctly. I've double checked the switch settings, and all matches the Compupro suggested configuration. Looking at the schematic, there is not a whole lot of circitry involved in switching from one to the other - I have removed, cleaned (chip and socket) everything even remotely related to switching the CPU to no effect. Next step is to begin tracing it with the scope, and trying to figure out exactly how far it is getting - I'm guessing it won't be an obvious "it stopped here"... This could be a little tricky to figure out. Just thought I would check here and see if anyone has experience with this system and can offer any ideas of likely things to check. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Jan 3 20:02:20 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 21:02:20 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: References: <20060103095903.62a552ea.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20060103210220.5833d745.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:51:56 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > > I'll say again that I have never had difficulty using an ordinary > > long-handle flatblade screwdriver wedged into the TORX screwhead > > If you do this and mangle the heads of the screws sufficiently that you > can't turn them with the right tool either, you are going to have one > hell of a job drilling them out. > I've never had this problem. I don't 'bull' the screw out with brute force. A common flat-blade screwdriver tip nests tightly into the torque head and the screws are easily backed out. You determine 'proper fit' by trying the screwdriver blade in the easily accessable case-back screws. > I never bought a specail tool to open Macs. I just used the Xcellite > System 99 Torx drivers with the X5 extension. Fits perfectly, and it's in > my normal toolkit. My point in making my first comment was that not everybody has a huge collection of tools, and the thread was starting to develop in a way that somebody was going to have to head out and buy expensive new tools. It was a 'common sense' post, to make sure people knew they did NOT have to view their lack of an unusually long T15 torx screwdriver as a barrier. 'The exact tool' is a nice thing to have, but not all people here also collect tools. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 3 20:29:00 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 19:29:00 -0700 Subject: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 04 Jan 2006 01:16:03 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > The frontpanel switch is wired between the ground and ground-for-on > wires. Thus the frontpanel switch can be used to turn on (and turn off) > the contactors in all the power controllers in the machine. I would guess > (without seeing you system) that the 3 pin socket on the CPU box is wired > so that you just plug the power control bus cable in there and it will > connect the switch contacts between ground and ground-for-on. Hey! This is sounding familiar! My 11/03 has an 861 power controller on it and I have the three-position toggle switch as well. Thanks for explaining what those settings are! I had no idea what this meant when I first got the machine, but I had the switch set to "local on" and then the unit would power up. However, this idea that there's a way to powerup from the front panel on an 11/03 intrigues me! Unfortunately I see no obvious button that powers up the machine. Is this possible with an 861 and if there is not existing switch, what would you add to enable this feature? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Jan 3 20:40:35 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 20:40:35 -0600 Subject: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner In-Reply-To: Message-ID: AFAIK, there's only one panel for all 11/03, /23, and /23+ models, they just come with different badges. You need a DEC power bus cable. Run it from the connector on the CPU box to the power controller, set it to "remote on", and flip the far right switch. Viola, power from the front panel. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 8:29 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > The frontpanel switch is wired between the ground and ground-for-on > > wires. Thus the frontpanel switch can be used to turn on (and turn off) > > the contactors in all the power controllers in the machine. I would > guess > > (without seeing you system) that the 3 pin socket on the CPU box is > wired > > so that you just plug the power control bus cable in there and it will > > connect the switch contacts between ground and ground-for-on. > > Hey! This is sounding familiar! My 11/03 has an 861 power controller > on it and I have the three-position toggle switch as well. Thanks for > explaining what those settings are! I had no idea what this meant > when I first got the machine, but I had the switch set to "local on" > and then the unit would power up. > > However, this idea that there's a way to powerup from the front panel > on an 11/03 intrigues me! Unfortunately I see no obvious button that > powers up the machine. Is this possible with an 861 and if there is > not existing switch, what would you add to enable this feature? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Jan 3 20:54:46 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 20:54:46 -0600 Subject: More RLV12/RL02 problems (faults on Write) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It sounds very much like he could have blown something on the controller the first time when he wired it wrong, and said it got "hot". Either that or, I'd still blame the cable. I haven't known qbus cards to just go bad like that. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 7:19 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: More RLV12/RL02 problems (faults on Write) > > > While the RL02 was still in Fault mode, I also entered the > > "Toggle-In Program" from the RL02 Disk Subsystem User's Guide, > > Appendix C and it returned 102210 which is WGE (Write Gate Error) > > i.e. either Write Protect was set, or a sector pulse occurred > > during the write operation. > > > > I think I should be looking inside the RL02 on the logic board but > > can someone with more diagnostic-pack experience tell me if this > > is actually a controller problem? > > I think it could be either. What it basically means is that the drive > detected a write-gate signal to be asserted at the time when the servo > bursts are about to come round -- that is outside the user data area. To > protect the impossible-to-rewrite factory formatting, the drive disables > write and retracts the heads if this happens. > > It could either be a fault in the drive (holding the write-gate line on), > but this is unliely given that it reads correctly, or a problem with the > controller which asserts weite-gate for too long, or when it shouldn't. > > -tony From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jan 3 21:01:00 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 22:01:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: relay logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601040305.WAA28534@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Incidentally, I made a relay flup-flop without realising it a few months > back. I had a pair of contactors (high-power relays, basically) that > were mechnaically interlocked so they couldn't both close together > and electrically [mutually inverting-coupled]. > I fairly quickly relaised it was logically equivalent to a pair of > cross-coupled NOR gates -- the classic Eccles-Jordan circuit. Actually, cross-coupled NAND gates - unless you count "power present" as a logic 0, rather than 1 - because the "maintain memory" state is power present on both supply lines and the "lost memory" state is power absent on both, rather than the other way around. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 3 22:03:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 20:03:46 -0800 Subject: relay logic In-Reply-To: <200601040305.WAA28534@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200601040305.WAA28534@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200601032003460282.1364589D@10.0.0.252> Relay logic can depend on more than simple make/break on coil-current-present types. Stepping relays were used in telephone and logic systems. I used to have a telephone relay with two windings on the same electromagnet. I'm not sure, but I suspect the two might have been used as sort of a logical "AND" function. Latching relays use multiple coils also. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 3 22:25:51 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 21:25:51 -0700 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43BB23C7.3070102@ecubics.com> References: <43B6AD7B.3050606@ecubics.com> <20051231161932.GJ13985@lug-owl.de> <43B6C5EB.9020300@ecubics.com> <43B6E1AD.9030501@jetnet.ab.ca> <43B6E7E4.2060806@ecubics.com> <200512311441370144.02CA564C@10.0.0.252> <43B718BE.1010300@ecubics.com> <43BB23C7.3070102@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <43BB4E4F.9050403@jetnet.ab.ca> e.stiebler wrote: > > Ok, I have to correct myself here, as it is completely misleading. > I had the 4input/1output lookup table in mind, in use for an > instruction decoder. Besides of that, yes, one can use an FPGA to do > whatever bitsize one likes ;-) Well what ever design I do I run out CLB's or I run out of I/O pins. The main reasion I dropped useing a FPGA is that I had no way of getting the serial prom programed. With CPLD's I got a way to program them, but I still run out of I/O pins or logic cells. :) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 23:28:10 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 18:28:10 +1300 Subject: VAXStation 8000? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/4/06, 9000 VAX wrote: > On 1/3/06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >- > > I don't have one, but I remember running into them at DECUS > > conventions... > and with a VAXBI bus and a slow CPU (maybe same as VAX8250/8350) I don't recall them being VAXBI-based. My recollection was that they were Qbus-based - essentially a VAXstation-II/GPX, but with *much* more powerful graphics cards. Anyone with actual experience (mine was limited to pushing the mouse around and twisting the dialbox knobs) can feel free to chime in with corrections/details. -ethan From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Jan 3 23:32:10 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:32:10 -0500 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <20060104012810.B3A30BA4808@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200601031242.40172.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060104012810.B3A30BA4808@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200601040032.10668.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 03 January 2006 08:28 pm, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > How adaptable is the KIM-1 monitor? IIRC it had both the keypad and > > > a TTY mode where it would use the UART. I used KIM-1's but never got > > > too much into poking around everything the monitor could do/did do. > > > > I always thought that'd be a nifty machine to get a hold of and play > > with, but never did, somehow. Last one I saw for sale was way up there > > in price, not something I was gonna spend... > > Well, if you've got some of the chips and want to do some wire-wrapping > or soldering, you can buy the additional chips you need and > put one together without a lot of effort. Schematics > on the web at Rich Cini's site. Somebody else pointed me at that a few posts back, and I'm downloading as I type this. I'd be real surprised if I needed to buy any chips... <...> > > Big question for either of these, though, is source available? > > The Apple II monitor had a complete commented listing in the back of the > book that came with it. (for a II it was the "red book", II+'s come with > a listing too at the end of the hardware manual.) I vaguely recall running across something of the sort but don't know if I still have it -- it may be photocopied pages or something, I don't know. My stuff isn't nearly as well-organized as I'd likeit to be. > I'm sure Rich Cini's site has the source to the KIM-1 monitor. Yup, got it... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dcosentino at schange.com Tue Jan 3 09:22:14 2006 From: dcosentino at schange.com (dcosentino at schange.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 10:22:14 -0500 Subject: NEC APC III Message-ID: Hi Peter, I'm not sure if you'll get this or not, but I used to work for NEC (until 6mos ago) for 19 years. I was part of the first US assembly team that re-assembled APC III and APC IV computers. That was back in 1986. Because of the tariffs imposed on Japan, we received computers that were previously assembled and tested in Japan, then disassembled and sent to the US for re-assembly. "Nothing's better to fix than my 8086!" Don Cosentino SeaChange International 978-889-3418 From erik at baigar.de Tue Jan 3 06:48:00 2006 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:48:00 +0100 (MET) Subject: HP logic analysers - IAs and utils? Message-ID: Hi Philip, thanks for your comments! > > Can the code be modified (e.g. is it possible to implement > > an other CPU?)? > The Inverse Assembler toolkit was on Agilent's FTP site a few > years ago. I'm not sure where you could get a copy now, though. > The assembler works fine on pretty much any machine, but IALDOWN > is very fussy. I did some search and was not able to get hands on a copy of the "Inverse Assembler toolkit". :-( But still I think, that the source code of IALDOWN might be interesting fo lot of people using 1600 analyzers. Since you used the NI library it should be easy to port it to other libraries: the NI library is somthing like standard for GPIB. Maybe I will be able to locate the "Inverse Assembler toolkit" in the future and than I'd be interested, too! Maybe the linux-gpib-project's people are interested as well (search for "hp1630 logic analyzer sourceforge" within google groups). Last but not least I consider the HP1600 analyzers very well suited for debugging and maintaining classic comps and I am happy to have one ;-) Best regards, Erik. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Jan 4 01:22:55 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 08:22:55 +0100 Subject: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF25D5@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi Richard, I have one 11/03, but AFAIK (I'm at work now) there is no switch on the front panel of the 03 to control on/off. However, if your 11/03 is mounted in a (small) rack you can add a simple plate with an on/off switch. Any small switch will be fine, because you switch approx. 20 VDC, not 230 VAC (or 115 VAC). All the power bus connectors have 3 pins, and they are all wired in parallel. IIRC, the middle pin is the return-GND, and when looking at the plug-in side of the socket on the power controller, the left one is power-on. A simple test will confirm this. Just set the small switch to "remote" and the short-circuit the 2 left-most pins. If the main relay "bangs" in you got the correct 2 pins :-) Wire the 2 pins to the small switch at the front side and you have made the remote turn-of/off option :-) - Henk. > Hey! This is sounding familiar! My 11/03 has an 861 power > controller on it and I have the three-position toggle switch > as well. Thanks for explaining what those settings are! I > had no idea what this meant when I first got the machine, but > I had the switch set to "local on" > and then the unit would power up. > > However, this idea that there's a way to powerup from the > front panel on an 11/03 intrigues me! Unfortunately I see no > obvious button that powers up the machine. Is this possible > with an 861 and if there is not existing switch, what would > you add to enable this feature? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 4 02:18:25 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 08:18:25 GMT Subject: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner In-Reply-To: "Julian Wolfe" "RE: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner" (Jan 3, 20:40) References: Message-ID: <10601040818.ZM28402@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 3 2006, 20:40, Julian Wolfe wrote: > AFAIK, there's only one panel for all 11/03, /23, and /23+ models, they just > come with different badges. You need a DEC power bus cable. Run it from > the connector on the CPU box to the power controller, set it to "remote on", > and flip the far right switch. Viola, power from the front panel. Yes, but... on some QBus systems the switch is jumpered to control the LTC (Line Time Clock signal) by grounding the BEVENT bus line. You ought to check the jumpers on the little electronics board before you wire an unknown system to the power bus. I've accidentally done it with the wrong jumper settings and it's done no harm, but YMMV. BTW, the connectors for the power bus are standard 3-pin AMP Commercial Mate-N-Lock conectors, which are fairly easy to get. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 4 02:13:06 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 08:13:06 GMT Subject: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner In-Reply-To: "Gooijen, Henk" "RE: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner" (Jan 4, 8:22) References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF25D5@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <10601040813.ZM28391@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 4 2006, 8:22, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Hi Richard, > I have one 11/03, but AFAIK (I'm at work now) there is no switch > on the front panel of the 03 to control on/off. There should be, on all BA11-M, BA11-M, and BA11-S boxes (except some expansion boxes that have no LED/switch panel at all) though depending on the box, it may be labelled LTC or AUX. See, for example, http://hampage.hu/pdp-11/1103.html It's the rightmost of the three switches on the panel. Also http://www.abc80.net/pics/PDP11-23_cpu_2_big.jpg -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Jan 4 03:01:07 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 10:01:07 +0100 Subject: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF25D9@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> So, what I said ("there is no switch on the front panel of the 03 to control on/off") is still true :-) , but I had not thought of using LTC (or AUX) for that! Using that switch to turn on/off power to the 11/03 via the 861 is a nice idea. But checking the LTC/AUX wiring before 'mis'using the switch for on/off control is indeed even more clever :-) thanks! - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > Sent: woensdag 4 januari 2006 9:13 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner > > On Jan 4 2006, 8:22, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > Hi Richard, > > I have one 11/03, but AFAIK (I'm at work now) there is no switch on > > the front panel of the 03 to control on/off. > > There should be, on all BA11-M, BA11-M, and BA11-S boxes > (except some expansion boxes that have no LED/switch panel at > all) though depending on the box, it may be labelled LTC or AUX. > > See, for example, http://hampage.hu/pdp-11/1103.html It's > the rightmost of the three switches on the panel. Also > http://www.abc80.net/pics/PDP11-23_cpu_2_big.jpg > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 4 03:01:10 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:01:10 GMT Subject: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner In-Reply-To: Pete Turnbull "Re: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner" (Jan 4, 8:13) References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF25D5@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <10601040813.ZM28391@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <10601040901.ZM28461@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 4 2006, 8:13, Pete Turnbull wrote: > There should be, on all BA11-M, BA11-M, and BA11-S boxes ^ The second item was meant to be BA11-N, of course :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bernd at kopriva.de Wed Jan 4 04:53:08 2006 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 11:53:08 +0100 Subject: Seeking for docs/software for ZAIAZ 933 Clipper board ... Message-ID: <20060104103130.D8DC039698@linux.local> Hi, today i received a pair of ISA boards, that contains a clipper CPU board and a some memory ... ... unfortunately, there was no software and documentation included, and Google doesn't seem to be my friend on that topic :( Can anyone help me to get the boards back to life ? Thanks Bernd Bernd Kopriva Phone: ++49-7195-179452 Weilerstr. 24 E-Mail: bernd at kopriva.de D-71397 Leutenbach Germany From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Wed Jan 4 05:15:43 2006 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:15:43 +1100 Subject: VAXStation 8000? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/01/2006, at 4:28 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I don't recall them being VAXBI-based. My recollection was that they > were Qbus-based - essentially a VAXstation-II/GPX, but with *much* > more powerful graphics cards. > > Anyone with actual experience (mine was limited to pushing the mouse > around and twisting the dialbox knobs) can feel free to chime in with > corrections/details. Well I was fairly sure that they we BI based and a quick Google lead to http://www.hoffmanlabs.org/openvms/hwvax.shtml which seems to confirm this view. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Jan 4 05:34:25 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 11:34:25 GMT Subject: UCSD P-System (was Speaking of 6502s) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Not really native 6502, but there was a Fortan complier for the UCSD > P-system on the Apple ][. Of course it compiled to p-code, but the whole > thing did run on a 6502 machine. I've always wanted to try porting P-System to my 6502 CPU board, but I never managed to find any source listings (or even documentation) for it... Thanks. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... You're twisted, perverted, & sick. I like that! From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Jan 4 01:53:33 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:53:33 +0000 Subject: Compupro 8085/8088 switchover problem. Message-ID: <20060104120018.MFMY17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > My guess is that it is not transitioning into 8088 mode correctly. Figured it out - There is one fundamental difference between 16-bit mode of the CPU 8085/88 and the CPU 8086/8087. It needs RAM at FFFF0 in order to start correctly. With the 8086/8087 the Disk-1A puts it ROM at FFC00-FFFFF which boots the system. Since the 8086 has it's vectors at 00000, it never needs "high RAM" again. With the 8085/8088 the system starts in 8085 mode with the boot ROM at 00000. The loader (from disk) tries to write a JMP to FFFF0 before starting the 8088 - this was failing because I didn't have RAM there. Putting my 64k board at Fxxxxx cured the problem and now it boots CP/M-86 reliably. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Jan 4 07:10:13 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 08:10:13 -0500 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - Message-ID: <01C61106.A56B81C0@MSE_D03> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 13:10:54 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems >how many lanugages were implemented on the 6502, as contrasted >with the x80? Was there ever a 6502 COBOL, FORTRAN or PL/I? (I honestly >don't know, but I suspect that FORTRAN may have existed). The picture >might have been quite different, given the 6800 architecture. >Cheers, >Chuck -------------------------------------- AIM65 (again ;) had PL/I, (called PL/65) - also on Rich's site. Most languages were ported to the PET (although some were for the 6809 in the dual-processor SPET): Ada, APL, Assembler, BASIC (interpreted and compiled), C, Cobol, Comal, Forth, Fortran, Lisp, Logo, Mumps, Pascal & Pilot, to name a few. mike From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Jan 4 07:22:04 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 08:22:04 -0500 Subject: Interesting e-book Message-ID: <01C61108.11CB8940@MSE_D03> For those who haven't read it, here's "A History of the Personal Computer - The People and the Technology," in PDF format, courtesy of our Canadian government: http://epe.lac-bac.gc.ca/100/200/300/allan_publishing/history_personal_computer/ mike From m_thompson at ids.net Wed Jan 4 08:08:27 2006 From: m_thompson at ids.net (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 09:08:27 -0500 Subject: VAXStation 8000? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20060104085143.03ffd928@155.212.1.107> I have what I believe to be most of a VAXstation 8000. It is about the size of a MV-II, but it is about 10" longer. The front 8" hinges open so you can get to the back of disk drives. It holds a bunch of 5 1/2" disks. The sides open like a clam shell. The the VAXBI card cage is in one side. There is room for a second card cage. I belive that this is where the ES graphics card cage goes. At 12:28 AM 1/4/2006, you wrote: >On 1/4/06, 9000 VAX wrote: > > On 1/3/06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >- > > > I don't have one, but I remember running into them at DECUS > > > conventions... > > > and with a VAXBI bus and a slow CPU (maybe same as VAX8250/8350) > >I don't recall them being VAXBI-based. My recollection was that they >were Qbus-based - essentially a VAXstation-II/GPX, but with *much* >more powerful graphics cards. > >Anyone with actual experience (mine was limited to pushing the mouse >around and twisting the dialbox knobs) can feel free to chime in with >corrections/details. > >-ethan Michael Thompson E-Mail: M_Thompson at IDS.net From jcwren at jcwren.com Wed Jan 4 08:31:59 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 09:31:59 -0500 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs Message-ID: <43BBDC5F.8060406@jcwren.com> This fellow has some interesting projects. A 6502 opcode compatible CPU implemented in latches and EEPROMs. A NAND-gate based MC14500B. And a CPU using (mostly) only transistors. Also a introduction to microprogramming article, and some other good stuff. I don't know if anyone else mentioned this page in the past. I don't recall it, and I tend to follow the homebuilt CPU threads here. If you've seen it already, sorry about that. --jc From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed Jan 4 09:39:52 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 15:39:52 -0000 Subject: relay logic References: <200601040305.WAA28534@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200601032003460282.1364589D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <003a01c61145$1b597160$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "Chuck Guzis" > Relay logic can depend on more than simple make/break on > coil-current-present types. > > Stepping relays were used in telephone and logic systems. I used to have a > telephone relay with two windings on the same electromagnet. I'm not sure, > but I suspect the two might have been used as sort of a logical "AND" > function. Latching relays use multiple coils also. > There are several reasons for multiple relay windings, especially on telephone relays: two windings, where the sum magnetic field of both is required to operate the relay - often used in off hook detect circuits (a and b wires both go through relay, inductance of coils prevents speech from entering the exchange power supply). two windings, where one will operate the relay in a normal manner, the other provides enough flux to hold the relay in - used in some decoders. three windings, two operate the contacts, the third is used to couple tones (NU, dial, engaged) to the speech pair. there are lots of other configurations - these are the most common! slow operate relays have a copper "slug" on the core (basically a large shorted turn which slows the build up of flux). slow release can either use a slug, or a resistor in parallel with the coil (slows the collapse of the magnetic field). a longer delay can be obtained using a diode in a similar way. If you want the theory of relays, try Atkinson's "Telephony" (long out of print, but many libraries have copies still). Jim. From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Wed Jan 4 09:56:11 2006 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:56:11 +0100 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <200601020528.k025SkvY026355@mail.bcpl.net> References: <200601020528.k025SkvY026355@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <43BBF01B.6000303@ais.fraunhofer.de> J. David Bryan wrote: >On 30 Dec 2005 at 18:20, Richard wrote: > > > >>Besides the Lilith Modula-2 workstation, what other computers were >>made from the AMD 29xx bit-slice architecture? >> >> > >The HP 1000 A600 mini used the 2901. The A700 used the 2903. (The A900 >used the 74S381, while the A400 used a custom LSI chip.) > > -- Dave > > While we are at that, are there engineering docs (not the RTE-A docs at hp.com/rte) for any of the A series machines somehere on the net? Seems bitsavers does not have anything for the A machines. Regards Holger From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Wed Jan 4 10:10:35 2006 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 17:10:35 +0100 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <200601020528.k025SkvY026355@mail.bcpl.net> References: <200601020528.k025SkvY026355@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <43BBF37B.2050201@ais.fraunhofer.de> J. David Bryan wrote: >On 30 Dec 2005 at 18:20, Richard wrote: > > > >>Besides the Lilith Modula-2 workstation, what other computers were >>made from the AMD 29xx bit-slice architecture? >> >> > >The HP 1000 A600 mini used the 2901. The A700 used the 2903. (The A900 >used the 74S381, while the A400 used a custom LSI chip.) > > -- Dave > > And furthermore: does anyone know of a good source for the 2904 (the shifter/status register extension chip). The usual sources like unicorn, digikey, and bgmicro only offer, if at all the common ALU/sequencers 2901/2903/2909/10/11, but the 2904 seems to be hard to find. Looks as if I'd have to replace it with a CPLD. Holger From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Wed Jan 4 10:19:50 2006 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 17:19:50 +0100 Subject: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: References: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43B9704E.3070408@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <43BBF5A6.6080605@ais.fraunhofer.de> Philip Pemberton wrote: >In message <43B9704E.3070408 at sbcglobal.net> > Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > > >>I believe the Zilog Z80 is still made. At least it was in 2004. >>May be a different part number though. >> >> > >The 65C02S is still manufactured - see . > > ...which is, IIRC, not very much related to a Z80 :-) I don't see any real problems to find Z80 chips at all - almost any retailer who provides any electronic components has them (if not, I'd not consider ordering there :-)). It may be a little bit more difficult to find specific Z80 versions (clock frequencies, special uncommon peripherals). WRT wdc: Actually, infact you can order small quantities (>=10) from wdc if you ask politely via email. Don't expect cent prices, though. wdc is, however, more attractive for the 65816, which I'd recommend for more sophisticated hobbyist designs. Holger From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 4 11:56:46 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 10:56:46 -0700 Subject: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 04 Jan 2006 08:13:06 +0000. <10601040813.ZM28391@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: In article <10601040813.ZM28391 at mindy.dunnington.plus.com>, Pete Turnbull writes: > On Jan 4 2006, 8:22, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > Hi Richard, > > I have one 11/03, but AFAIK (I'm at work now) there is no switch > > on the front panel of the 03 to control on/off. > > There should be, on all BA11-M, BA11-M, and BA11-S boxes (except some > expansion boxes that have no LED/switch panel at all) though depending > on the box, it may be labelled LTC or AUX. Mine is labelled "AUX On/Off" and I didn't know what it did. On the 861 power conditioner there is a connector labelled J2. Is this where the switch connects up? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 4 12:00:14 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 11:00:14 -0700 Subject: VAXStation 8000? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 04 Jan 2006 09:08:27 -0500. <6.2.1.2.0.20060104085143.03ffd928@155.212.1.107> Message-ID: In article <6.2.1.2.0.20060104085143.03ffd928 at 155.212.1.107>, Michael Thompson writes: > I have what I believe to be most of a VAXstation 8000. It is about the size > of a MV-II, but it is about 10" longer. The front 8" hinges open so you can > get to the back of disk drives. It holds a bunch of 5 1/2" disks. The sides > open like a clam shell. The the VAXBI card cage is in one side. There is > room for a second card cage. I belive that this is where the ES graphics > card cage goes. Just out of curiosity, how did you end up with the CPU but not the graphics? I would think the latter is pretty useless without the former! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Wed Jan 4 12:06:06 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J. Blaser) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 11:06:06 -0700 Subject: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner In-Reply-To: <200601041057.k04AvIte069173@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601041057.k04AvIte069173@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43BC0E8E.1080005@rogerwilco.org> Thanks to comments from Tony, Julian and Henk, I think I now understand how this thing works. I'm not _quite_ ready to power up the CPU so I haven't confirmed the AUX ON/OFF front panel switches functionality, but based on the responses, it seems clear what I should expect. I have, however, confirmed the functionality of the Local On and Remote On settings on the 874 itself, and can confirm that the 3-conductor link between the two 874's is doing it's job properly. In response to Julian's interest, here's the configuration of this 11/23+ system: - KDF11-BA processor -- 512MB (MSV11-PL) -- x2 4-line serial muxes (DZV11) -- a single line (DLV11) -- Controllers for the drives (RLV12 & RXV21) - x3 RL02 w/ a handfull of diskpacks - RX02 dual-drive - x2 VT100 - x2 VT102 - LA120 As I mentioned in the original post, this is all housed in a dual-wide 40" roll-away cabinet (frankly, I have no idea what it's model designation is) with two side-panels/uprights and a connecting 'panel' in between. And, I've got an ASR33 on hand that I might hook up later, for grins. I've got RT11 on the disks right now, and though my eventual goal is to get RSTS running (thanks, Julian, for the offered assistance!), I'm actually going to spend some time with the RT11 first, getting familiar with that, also for grins. Again, thanks to all for the heads up on how this power gear works. J. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 4 12:15:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 10:15:43 -0800 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <43BBDC5F.8060406@jcwren.com> References: <43BBDC5F.8060406@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <200601041015430771.167053F9@10.0.0.252> What qualifies a CPU as "homebuilt"? Would an FPGA implementation qualify as one? If not, why not? If FPGA is disqualifed, how about CPLD/GAL/PAL? I'm just trying to understand the rules of this thing. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 4 12:16:58 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 11:16:58 -0700 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <43BBDC5F.8060406@jcwren.com> References: <43BBDC5F.8060406@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <43BC111A.7080808@jetnet.ab.ca> J.C. Wren wrote: > This fellow has some interesting projects. A 6502 opcode > compatible CPU implemented in latches and EEPROMs. A NAND-gate based > MC14500B. And a CPU using (mostly) only transistors. Also a > introduction to microprogramming article, and some other good stuff. > > > > I don't know if anyone else mentioned this page in the past. I > don't recall it, and I tend to follow the homebuilt CPU threads here. > If you've seen it already, sorry about that. > Well don't forget that "Homebuilt CPUs WebRing" covers almost all the home brew CPU's I have seen. For FPGA designs see: http://www.fpgacpu.org/links.html The odd thing about FPGA designs is that several are 6502's or 6809's emulation. > --jc > > . > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 4 12:20:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 10:20:51 -0800 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - In-Reply-To: <01C61106.A56B81C0@MSE_D03> References: <01C61106.A56B81C0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <200601041020510022.1675042D@10.0.0.252> On 1/4/2006 at 8:10 AM M H Stein wrote: >AIM65 (again ;) had PL/I, (called PL/65) - also on Rich's site. > >Most languages were ported to the PET (although some were for the 6809 >in the dual-processor SPET): But a 6809 is nothing like a 6502! If anything, a 6809 is an improved 16-bit version of a 6800. In a way, this goes toward the idea of the 6800 having the more useful architecture than the 6502. Cheers, Chuck From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 12:25:40 2006 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 18:25:40 +0000 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - In-Reply-To: References: <200601031310540504.11EA5E1D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 1/4/06, Tony Duell wrote: > What languages were available for the BBC Micro (without a second > processor[1]), I wonder. I know about BASIC, Pascal, Forth, Lisp There was an Acornsoft BCPL. There is known to be a Beebug C, but I never managed to track it down. The C I did manage to track down (not proper C but Small-C, and indeed only a limited subset of even that) was done by Dr. A. J. Travis. I wrote a project in this, and really liked it. http://www.mdfs.net/System/C/BBC/ for more details. Ed. From jcwren at jcwren.com Wed Jan 4 12:38:26 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 13:38:26 -0500 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <200601041015430771.167053F9@10.0.0.252> References: <43BBDC5F.8060406@jcwren.com> <200601041015430771.167053F9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43BC1622.5070604@jcwren.com> Dunno. Maybe homebuilt means either an original design, or an original reimplementation of an existing technology. That allows for FPGAs, CPLD/GAL/PAL, discrete logic, transistors, etc. --jc Chuck Guzis wrote: >What qualifies a CPU as "homebuilt"? Would an FPGA implementation qualify >as one? If not, why not? If FPGA is disqualifed, how about CPLD/GAL/PAL? > >I'm just trying to understand the rules of this thing. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > > From emu at ecubics.com Wed Jan 4 12:29:17 2006 From: emu at ecubics.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 11:29:17 -0700 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <43BC111A.7080808@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <43BBDC5F.8060406@jcwren.com> <43BC111A.7080808@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43BC13FD.5040704@ecubics.com> woodelf wrote: > Well don't forget that "Homebuilt CPUs WebRing" covers almost all the > home brew CPU's I have seen. > For FPGA designs see: http://www.fpgacpu.org/links.html > The odd thing about FPGA designs is that several are 6502's or 6809's > emulation. Probably because not everybody likes to build not only a CPU but also compiler and OS. Taking somekind of a CPU which has already OS support is easier for the software side of things. Not saying it is easier for the hardware, as is is much bigger/complex as the pure "made for FPGA" CPUs. From alanp at snowmoose.com Wed Jan 4 12:48:25 2006 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 10:48:25 -0800 Subject: Burroughs B1000 (Was: Burroughs L-series) In-Reply-To: <200601041803.k04I3Ov7074292@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601041803.k04I3Ov7074292@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1136400505.43bc1879d2839@webmail.snowmoose.com> From: Steven Wilson > >What are the Burroughs L-series computers? I started working for > >Burroughs just before the Sperry merger and I guess I missed the > >L-series. > > >I collect B1000 stuff (or, I would collect it if I could find > >anything) and acquired a bunch of B20 systems a couple of years ago, > >so I collect them now. > > >Other than a museum that asked me if I ever found a B1000, I haven't > >found any other collectors of Burroughs stuff. > > >alan > > That's funny - I use to design them ;-) I was a CPU design engineer on > the last two iterations of the B1000 (B1955/B1965). (Hans P should > probably saw something next ;-) Curious what you've got in your > collection? Note my line about "if I could find anything". All I have is printed stuff. The one thing that comes to mind is the "Inside Your Living MCP" material that Art Sorkin wrote. I was tempted to contact some of the old customers and see if they knew the disposition of their B1000s, but most of them were in England and it has now been around 20 years since they were using them. (As I have mentioned here, I did bug fixes on B1000 GEMCOS from 1986 to 1989.) > I'd buy a B1965 if one ever were available! ( I should be able to help > with B1955 too if anyone has one..) I should be able to help get one > running again if required. Same here. Well, as far as buying a B1965 goes. I did most of my work on a B1965. The closest that I have gotten to finding a B1000 is a B1855 (I think that was it) that was at Fort Lewis (WA) and taken out of service in 1997. I was only three years late getting to it. alan From leeeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 4 12:56:08 2006 From: leeeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 18:56:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems Message-ID: <20060104185608.93424.qmail@web25806.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > the 68HC11 seems to be everywhere--and the 6502 has been pretty > much relegated to obscurity. The reason you don't see it is that the part number oftem bears no similarity to 65x02. All the Mitsubishi 740 series and ITT CCU3000 series ucontrollers were 6502 cored as are a lot of Rockwell modem chips. Every BSB D2MAC receiver had two 6502 chips, one in the CAM badged GEC, Sharp TVs and Videos used them. In non computing equipment the most popular CPU core seems to be the 8031/51, 6502 and Z8, Lee. .. ___________________________________________________________ NEW Yahoo! Cars - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online! http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/ From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jan 4 12:58:40 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 18:58:40 -0000 Subject: VAXStation 8000? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001501c61160$e1bf6fb0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Huw Davies wrote: > Well I was fairly sure that they we BI based and a quick Google lead > to > > http://www.hoffmanlabs.org/openvms/hwvax.shtml > > which seems to confirm this view. They were definitely VAXBI with a KA825 (VAX 8250) CPU and E+S graphics. The disk was an RD54 on a KFBTA controller. I saw one once (outside DEC, never inside). It would be nice to find one, but I doubt that there were that many of them made. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 4 13:06:25 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 11:06:25 -0800 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <20060104185608.93424.qmail@web25806.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20060104185608.93424.qmail@web25806.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200601041106250064.169EBC06@10.0.0.252> On 1/4/2006 at 6:56 PM lee davison wrote: >The reason you don't see it is that the part number oftem bears no >similarity to 65x02. All the Mitsubishi 740 series and ITT CCU3000 >series ucontrollers were 6502 cored as are a lot of Rockwell modem >chips. Every BSB D2MAC receiver had two 6502 chips, one in the CAM >badged GEC, Sharp TVs and Videos used them. ...and the 68HC11 and its kin are still in use in modern designs. While there undoubetdly (due to the sheer volume of CBM, and Apple systems) far more applications of 6502s in PC's, the 6800-based embedded applications far outnumer 6502-based ones. My point was that on the basis of instruction set alone, one would have expected the reverse to be true. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 4 13:07:55 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 12:07:55 -0700 Subject: VAXStation 8000? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 04 Jan 2006 18:58:40 +0000. <001501c61160$e1bf6fb0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: In article <001501c61160$e1bf6fb0$5b01a8c0 at pc1>, "a.carlini at ntlworld.com" writes: > They were definitely VAXBI with a KA825 (VAX 8250) CPU and > E+S graphics. The disk was an RD54 on a KFBTA controller. > I saw one once (outside DEC, never inside). It would be > nice to find one, but I doubt that there were that many > of them made. Yep, I don't think I ever saw them inside E&S either. I saw a PS390 and plenty of ESVs, but I never saw a VS8000. The internal name was "Shadowfax", IIRC. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jan 4 13:28:23 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 19:28:23 -0000 Subject: VAXStation 8000? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001701c61165$08821630$5b01a8c0@pc1> Richard wrote: > Yep, I don't think I ever saw them inside E&S either. I saw a PS390 > and plenty of ESVs, but I never saw a VS8000. The internal name was > "Shadowfax", IIRC. Internal to E&S? I did see a DEC FS engineer carry in a box of new memory for our VAX 8200 (when I was a customer) and the box had "Lynx memory" scribbled on the outside. The VAX 8200 was Scorpio, but I _thought_ the VAXstation 8000 was Lynx. Several of the VAXstation series were named after cats (Panther and Cougar spring to mind). Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jan 4 13:29:34 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 11:29:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs Message-ID: <200601041929.LAA00840@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi If it was some IP you bought or got from someone else, I don't think it would qualify. If you did the work your self, then it is valid. Think in terms of: I build my PC by plugging these cards in. versus: I build my cpu using FPGA for my alu and instruction decoder. I used my own MISC instruction set. later Dwight >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >What qualifies a CPU as "homebuilt"? Would an FPGA implementation qualify >as one? If not, why not? If FPGA is disqualifed, how about CPLD/GAL/PAL? > >I'm just trying to understand the rules of this thing. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Jan 4 13:29:39 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 20:29:39 +0100 Subject: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE227E@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> BTW, what I did manage to get done in the past few weeks, is an "upgrade" of two 861's. I replaced the big electromagnetic relay with a modern Solid State Relay. If you install an SSR with zero-crossing detection switch-on, instead of the old relay, the power surge of the big transformer in the bigger UNIBUS PDP-11's will not trip the fuse in the house. It is fairly simple, and if you keep the old relay, you can alwyas revert to the original situation. Here's what I did. 0. Get a SSR with input 3-32VDC. The output is AC rating what you have at home (for your PDP-11's). 1. Get the diagrams from bitsavers. Not really necessary, but they will make you understand better how an 861 works. 2. Remove the electromagnetic relay. 3. Install the SSR (I had to drill one hole, sorry ...) 4. Remove the pilot control board. 5. Cut the trace that connects the reed relay to the *AC* power. The other trace goes to the relay. It depends a little on the type of board, as I have seen a few small differences. 6. Connect the cut trace (to the reed contact) to the "+" of the electrolytic cap. 7. Connect the "-" wire from the electrolytic cap to the "-" of the SSR input. And connect the other contact of the reed relay to the "+" of the SSR relay. 8. Lead one wire from the AC breaker directly to the output cap. From the output cap straight to the AC power socket (Neutral). 9. Lead the "hot" wire from the AC breaker to the SSR AC LOAD input, and a wire from the SSR AC LOAD output to the other contact of the AC power socket (Phase, "hot"). Before you apply power (stand-alnoe, just the 861 box!) check the wiring at least once ...! I haven't had a tripping fuse up till now when I turn on the 11/34. - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Richard Verzonden: wo 04-01-2006 18:56 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner In article <10601040813.ZM28391 at mindy.dunnington.plus.com>, Pete Turnbull writes: > On Jan 4 2006, 8:22, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > Hi Richard, > > I have one 11/03, but AFAIK (I'm at work now) there is no switch > > on the front panel of the 03 to control on/off. > > There should be, on all BA11-M, BA11-M, and BA11-S boxes (except some > expansion boxes that have no LED/switch panel at all) though depending > on the box, it may be labelled LTC or AUX. Mine is labelled "AUX On/Off" and I didn't know what it did. On the 861 power conditioner there is a connector labelled J2. Is this where the switch connects up? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From kth at srv.net Wed Jan 4 13:53:49 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 12:53:49 -0700 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <200601041015430771.167053F9@10.0.0.252> References: <43BBDC5F.8060406@jcwren.com> <200601041015430771.167053F9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43BC27CD.2020502@srv.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: >What qualifies a CPU as "homebuilt"? Would an FPGA implementation qualify >as one? If not, why not? If FPGA is disqualifed, how about CPLD/GAL/PAL? > >I'm just trying to understand the rules of this thing. > > You need to start with a pile of sand, a barrel of oil, some meteorites, and assorted small plants and animals. The barrel of oil is sometimes considered cheating, as you can generate that through squeezing the small animals. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 14:00:57 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 15:00:57 -0500 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <43BC27CD.2020502@srv.net> References: <43BBDC5F.8060406@jcwren.com> <200601041015430771.167053F9@10.0.0.252> <43BC27CD.2020502@srv.net> Message-ID: <43BC2979.5000506@gmail.com> Kevin Handy wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> What qualifies a CPU as "homebuilt"? Would an FPGA implementation >> qualify >> as one? If not, why not? If FPGA is disqualifed, how about >> CPLD/GAL/PAL? >> >> I'm just trying to understand the rules of this thing. >> >> > You need to start with a pile of sand, a barrel of oil, some meteorites, > and assorted small plants and animals. The barrel of oil is sometimes > considered cheating, as you can generate that through squeezing the > small animals. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 4 14:10:03 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 13:10:03 -0700 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <43BC27CD.2020502@srv.net> References: <43BBDC5F.8060406@jcwren.com> <200601041015430771.167053F9@10.0.0.252> <43BC27CD.2020502@srv.net> Message-ID: <43BC2B9B.3010209@jetnet.ab.ca> Kevin Handy wrote: > You need to start with a pile of sand, a barrel of oil, some meteorites, > and assorted small plants and animals. The barrel of oil is sometimes > considered cheating, as you can generate that through squeezing the > small animals. So what pot of primeval soup did you evolve from? :) From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 14:19:59 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 15:19:59 -0500 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <43BC2B9B.3010209@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <43BBDC5F.8060406@jcwren.com> <200601041015430771.167053F9@10.0.0.252> <43BC27CD.2020502@srv.net> <43BC2B9B.3010209@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43BC2DEF.1080801@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: > Kevin Handy wrote: > >> You need to start with a pile of sand, a barrel of oil, some meteorites, >> and assorted small plants and animals. The barrel of oil is sometimes >> considered cheating, as you can generate that through squeezing the >> small animals. > > > So what pot of primeval soup did you evolve from? :) MMMmmmMMMmmmMMM. Primeval soup. *drools* Peace... Sridhar From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed Jan 4 14:23:41 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 20:23:41 -0000 Subject: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE227E@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <00d201c6116c$c127f7c0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> PA8PDP wrote: >BTW, what I did manage to get done in the past few weeks, is an >"upgrade" of two 861's. I replaced the big electromagnetic relay >with a modern Solid State Relay. Now why didn't I think of that! (That's why I went from fixing things to management, rather than sticking at designing things............) Neat idea Henk, I may try that on one of my machines, especially when I lose the nice big supplies and storage space at work :( Jim. PS I haven't forgotten your DX11 panel. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 4 14:39:06 2006 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 12:39:06 -0800 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <200601041106250064.169EBC06@10.0.0.252> References: <20060104185608.93424.qmail@web25806.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <200601041106250064.169EBC06@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43BC326A.2000706@deltasoft.com> > more applications of 6502s in PC's, the 6800-based embedded applications > far outnumer 6502-based ones. My point was that on the basis of > instruction set alone, one would have expected the reverse to be true. > The TEWS in the F-15 is based on a 1Mhz 6800B. g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Jan 4 14:49:03 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 21:49:03 +0100 Subject: RT11 boot block 0 words ? Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2281@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I would like to use the vast knowledge of this community, as a brief search through the calssiccmp archive gave no answer ... I can't get RT11 booted anymore on my 11/34. To isolate the problem I have only one RL02 drive connected to the RL11. Before I start the M9312 monitor, I dumped 00005's in the memory locations 000000 thru 000070. Then I started the M9312 monitor (at 165020), and enter "DL" on the prompt. I loaded the RL02 cartridge, that I always use, first, of course. The READY lamp of the RL02 drive flashes briefly off/on once, and then the display on the 11/34 console shows (address) 000004, and the RUN lamp goes off. Examining the memory shows that location 000000 contains 000240, and all subsequent locations contain 000000. So the memory locations are written ... Is the first word (000240) the first word of block 0 of the RT11 bootstrap? I hesitate to load the XXDP RL02 cartridge that I have. I never made a copy (stupid, I know), and I am afraid to loose it ... thanks, - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 4 14:53:12 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 12:53:12 -0800 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <200601041929.LAA00840@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200601041929.LAA00840@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <200601041253120079.17007F43@10.0.0.252> On 1/4/2006 at 11:29 AM Dwight Elvey wrote: > If it was some IP you bought or got from someone else, >I don't think it would qualify. If you did the work your >self, then it is valid. > Think in terms of: > I build my PC by plugging these cards in. > versus: > I build my cpu using FPGA for my alu and instruction > decoder. I used my own MISC instruction set. Okay, so where does "I put together the logic (or used an FPGA) but implemented someone else's instruction set (e.g. PDP-11, VAX, 6502, Z80, etc.) fit in? Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 4 14:56:00 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:56:00 +1300 Subject: VAXStation 8000? In-Reply-To: <001501c61160$e1bf6fb0$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <001501c61160$e1bf6fb0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: On 1/5/06, a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > They were definitely VAXBI with a KA825 (VAX 8250) CPU and > E+S graphics. The disk was an RD54 on a KFBTA controller. > I saw one once (outside DEC, never inside). It would be > nice to find one, but I doubt that there were that many > of them made. Well, since I never saw the insides, either, and I was reasonably certain that they had RD disk, I didn't know there was a BI cage inside. I had no idea that DEC put RD disks on that platform. I have an 8300 at home (would love to bump up its memory and CPU someday), so I know all about small-end BI machines (except how to finish debugging my broken DWBUA ;-), but I had no idea it was architecturally close to the VAXstation 8000, even if the model number is a tip-off. Thanks for the clarification. As I said, I saw one or two at every DECUS for a few years about 15 years ago, but never in the field. I'm sure they were wicked expensive. My employer paid $12,000 for a stripped (CPU, 12MB, KDB50, DWBUA, no ethernet), used 8200 in, ISTR, 1989 or 1990, and _that_ was a bargain. -ethan From shirsch at adelphia.net Wed Jan 4 15:27:03 2006 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 16:27:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <43B89D7D.4030000@pacbell.net> References: <43B89D7D.4030000@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jan 2006, Jim Battle wrote: > Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > > On Fri, 30 Dec 2005, Richard wrote: > > > Besides the Lilith Modula-2 workstation, what other computers were > > > made from the AMD 29xx bit-slice architecture? > > > > I believe the late, lamented New England Digital Corp. built the > > Synclavier music system (quarter-million buck digital synthesizer and > > audio workstation) CPU from AMD 29xx pieces. Early on, they produced a > > bit-slice mini (late 70s?) for commercial applications and propagated the > > same ISA to the Synclavier in the early-to-mid 80s. I'm drawing a total > > blank on the name of the mini, but recall seeing terminal sessions all > > over their engineering department. > ... > > Google says: http://www.500sound.com/SyncII/sync2intro.htm > > This says the CPU was called "ABLE", and it was programmed in "Scientific > XPL". Yes, that's it! XPL was, IIRC, a high-level assembly language optimized for music synthesis. It was quite an amazing gadget in its day and really pushed the envelope for memory and attached storage. A typical system had 32MB of DRAM, which in 1986 was some serious address space. The memory cards were so static-sensitive that performers typically ran a large ultrasonic humidifier behind the CPU rack to head off any crashes during live performances. They had an option called Direct-to-Disk, which used an array of 16 of the largest 5-1/4" RLL drives available (maybe a few hundred MB?); one for each track. There was a QIC tape drive mounted underneath each drive for making permanent copies. With all that, I think it was limited to about 20-minutes of full-bandwidth recording. Hard to believe how far things have come since then. Steve From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jan 4 15:50:49 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 13:50:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs Message-ID: <200601042150.NAA05238@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 1/4/2006 at 11:29 AM Dwight Elvey wrote: > >> If it was some IP you bought or got from someone else, >>I don't think it would qualify. If you did the work your >>self, then it is valid. >> Think in terms of: >> I build my PC by plugging these cards in. >> versus: >> I build my cpu using FPGA for my alu and instruction >> decoder. I used my own MISC instruction set. > >Okay, so where does "I put together the logic (or used an FPGA) but >implemented someone else's instruction set (e.g. PDP-11, VAX, 6502, Z80, >etc.) fit in? > >Cheers, >Chuck > Hi I'd consider that to be home built. Just as the EPROM alu that he used on the 6502 was homebuilt. Still, it is much more fun to think about your own processor. Dwight From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 4 15:58:02 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 14:58:02 -0700 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <200601041253120079.17007F43@10.0.0.252> References: <200601041929.LAA00840@ca2h0430.amd.com> <200601041253120079.17007F43@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43BC44EA.3080300@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >Okay, so where does "I put together the logic (or used an FPGA) but >implemented someone else's instruction set (e.g. PDP-11, VAX, 6502, Z80, >etc.) fit in? > > > Technical -- Reverse Engineering. Layman -- Piracy. >Cheers, >Chuck > > This assumes the PDP-11, 6502 and Z80. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Jan 4 13:06:07 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 20:06:07 +0100 Subject: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE227D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I am at home now ... my 11/03 has the switch labeled LTC on | off. I checked a few (old black) 861's that I have, but none of them had a "Jx" label. A modern-ish (blank metal) one had J10 and J11 on it printed. AFAIK, all 861's have only "heavy" AC power outlets and small 3-pin control sockets. Get the 861 diagrams from bitsavers, I'd say ... - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Richard Verzonden: wo 04-01-2006 18:56 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner In article <10601040813.ZM28391 at mindy.dunnington.plus.com>, Pete Turnbull writes: > On Jan 4 2006, 8:22, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > Hi Richard, > > I have one 11/03, but AFAIK (I'm at work now) there is no switch > > on the front panel of the 03 to control on/off. > > There should be, on all BA11-M, BA11-M, and BA11-S boxes (except some > expansion boxes that have no LED/switch panel at all) though depending > on the box, it may be labelled LTC or AUX. Mine is labelled "AUX On/Off" and I didn't know what it did. On the 861 power conditioner there is a connector labelled J2. Is this where the switch connects up? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 4 16:25:59 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 15:25:59 -0700 Subject: VAXStation 8000? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 04 Jan 2006 19:28:23 +0000. <001701c61165$08821630$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: In article <001701c61165$08821630$5b01a8c0 at pc1>, "a.carlini at ntlworld.com" writes: > Richard wrote: > > Yep, I don't think I ever saw them inside E&S either. I saw a PS390 > > and plenty of ESVs, but I never saw a VS8000. The internal name was > > "Shadowfax", IIRC. > > Internal to E&S? I did see a DEC FS engineer carry in a box of > new memory for our VAX 8200 (when I was a customer) and the box > had "Lynx memory" scribbled on the outside. The VAX 8200 was > Scorpio, but I _thought_ the VAXstation 8000 was Lynx. Several > of the VAXstation series were named after cats (Panther and Cougar > spring to mind). Maybe I'm misremembering code names. Lynx does sound familiar. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Jan 4 16:54:48 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:54:48 -0500 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <43BBDC5F.8060406@jcwren.com> References: <43BBDC5F.8060406@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <200601041754.48913.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 04 January 2006 09:31 am, J.C. Wren wrote: > This fellow has some interesting projects. A 6502 opcode compatible > CPU implemented in latches and EEPROMs. A NAND-gate based MC14500B. > And a CPU using (mostly) only transistors. Also a introduction to > microprogramming article, and some other good stuff. > > > > I don't know if anyone else mentioned this page in the past. I > don't recall it, and I tend to follow the homebuilt CPU threads here. > If you've seen it already, sorry about that. I wonder how fast you could get one of those to go...? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jan 4 17:16:54 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 15:16:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs Message-ID: <200601042316.PAA07902@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Roy J. Tellason" > >On Wednesday 04 January 2006 09:31 am, J.C. Wren wrote: >> This fellow has some interesting projects. A 6502 opcode compatible >> CPU implemented in latches and EEPROMs. A NAND-gate based MC14500B. >> And a CPU using (mostly) only transistors. Also a introduction to >> microprogramming article, and some other good stuff. >> >> >> >> I don't know if anyone else mentioned this page in the past. I >> don't recall it, and I tend to follow the homebuilt CPU threads here. >> If you've seen it already, sorry about that. > >I wonder how fast you could get one of those to go...? > >-- >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and >ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can >be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >- >Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James >M Dakin > Hi I suspect the limits are bus and speed of the EEPROM's. One can get EPROMs that are in the 50 to 60 ns someplace but getting data from normal random access memory can be an issue. Using one of the newer protocols, such as DDR would require a memory interface that was almost as complicated as the uP you were building. Still, there are a number of processor models that make sense for using slower memory. I've seen one that used a 20 bit data bus and most instructions were 5 bits. This means that 5 operations can be done on one instruction fetch. This doesn't work well with the typical RISC machine because you need operands. It does work with zero operand machines quite nicely :) Later Dwight From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Jan 4 17:49:47 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 18:49:47 -0500 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <200601042316.PAA07902@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200601042316.PAA07902@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <200601041849.47366.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 04 January 2006 06:16 pm, Dwight Elvey wrote: > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > > >On Wednesday 04 January 2006 09:31 am, J.C. Wren wrote: > >> This fellow has some interesting projects. A 6502 opcode compatible > >> CPU implemented in latches and EEPROMs. A NAND-gate based MC14500B. > >> And a CPU using (mostly) only transistors. Also a introduction to > >> microprogramming article, and some other good stuff. > >> > >> > >> > >> I don't know if anyone else mentioned this page in the past. I > >> don't recall it, and I tend to follow the homebuilt CPU threads here. > >> If you've seen it already, sorry about that. > > > >I wonder how fast you could get one of those to go...? > > > >-- > >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > >ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > >be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" > >- > >Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. > > --James M Dakin > > Hi > I suspect the limits are bus and speed of the EEPROM's. One > can get EPROMs that are in the 50 to 60 ns someplace but > getting data from normal random access memory can be > an issue. Using one of the newer protocols, such as DDR > would require a memory interface that was almost as complicated > as the uP you were building. You're probably right, but I don't think I'd want to go there anyhow. Considering the seriously low speed of some of those early 8-bit parts it wouldn't be at all hard to improve on it. Heck, I know of a lot of people that went to some nontrivial effort to do things like upgrade a stock Kaypro, and I remember thinking how nifty it'd be when I first heard about a 20 MHz z80 coming out. And with simple programs and efficient design you could get some good results out of such a setup. > Still, there are a number of processor models that make sense > for using slower memory. I've seen one that used a 20 bit data > bus and most instructions were 5 bits. This means that 5 operations > can be done on one instruction fetch. This doesn't work well > with the typical RISC machine because you need operands. > It does work with zero operand machines quite nicely :) Yep, I imagine it would. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jan 4 18:41:59 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 19:41:59 -0500 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <20060104185608.93424.qmail@web25806.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20060104185608.93424.qmail@web25806.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060104194159.137b9fbe.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 18:56:08 +0000 (GMT) lee davison wrote: > > the 68HC11 seems to be everywhere--and the 6502 has been pretty > > much relegated to obscurity. > > The reason you don't see it is that the part number oftem bears no > similarity to 65x02. All the Mitsubishi 740 series and ITT CCU3000 > series ucontrollers were 6502 cored as are a lot of Rockwell modem > chips. Every BSB D2MAC receiver had two 6502 chips, one in the CAM > badged GEC, Sharp TVs and Videos used them. > > In non computing equipment the most popular CPU core seems to be the > 8031/51, 6502 and Z8, > I'll make the strong arguement that in non-computing equipment, it is Japanese 4-bit CPU cores that still dominate. They did up until recently and are still VERY strong. Things like the NEC 75000 series. Every cheap little novelty that plays awful music or sound effects, or blinks lights has one in it. And the control panel on every consumer device is driven by one, i.e. microwave ovens, etc. There is still a market for low cost 4-bit processors. If you want to order one, though, you'd better want to order quantities in six or seven figures. (And have your code ready for the masking.) From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Jan 4 18:43:51 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 19:43:51 -0500 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - Message-ID: <01C61167.7E6834E0@MSE_D03> Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 10:20:51 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - >>On 1/4/2006 at 8:10 AM M H Stein wrote: >>Most languages were ported to the PET (although some were for the 6809 >>in the dual-processor SPET): >But a 6809 is nothing like a 6502! Of course not; I was just pointing out that any search of 6502 software etc. for the PET will probably include 6809 stuff as well. >If anything, a 6809 is an improved 16-bit version of a 6800. No "if anything" about it; in the words of the 6809 designers (who had also been involved in development of the 6800): "We feel (the 6809) is the best machine so far made by human." (From a 3-part series starting in Byte Jan '79, detailing the philosophy and development of the 6809 - wonder if they're suggesting that there were better machines, presumably made by non-humans? Aliens? The proverbial infinite number of monkeys?) >In a way, this goes toward the idea of the 6800 having the more useful >architecture than the 6502. Arrghh... do we always have to have these discussions about which CPU/ computer/OS/language etc. etc. is better/more useful than xyz? More useful for what, when, for whom, at what cost, yadda, yadda...? And how does software being written for a 16-bit 6809 (three years newer than the 6502) say anything about the relative merits of the even older 6800? I suppose that software being written for the Pentium proves that an 8080 was better than a Z80? As a matter of interest, the 6502 was the successor to the 6501, pin-compatible with the 6800 and not that much different. The 6809 was substantially different from both of them... m From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 4 18:46:15 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 17:46:15 -0700 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <200601041849.47366.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200601042316.PAA07902@ca2h0430.amd.com> <200601041849.47366.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <43BC6C57.30000@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >You're probably right, but I don't think I'd want to go there anyhow. >Considering the seriously low speed of some of those early 8-bit parts it >wouldn't be at all hard to improve on it. Heck, I know of a lot of people >that went to some nontrivial effort to do things like upgrade a stock Kaypro, >and I remember thinking how nifty it'd be when I first heard about a 20 MHz >z80 coming out. And with simple programs and efficient design you could get >some good results out of such a setup. > > > Still dreams of having a 2 MHZ Gimix 6809 .... Level II OS/9 and a nice HD. The only CP/M machine I ever used had flakey 8 inch drives thus I don't quite have fond memories of that! >> Still, there are a number of processor models that make sense >>for using slower memory. I've seen one that used a 20 bit data >>bus and most instructions were 5 bits. This means that 5 operations >>can be done on one instruction fetch. This doesn't work well >>with the typical RISC machine because you need operands. >>It does work with zero operand machines quite nicely :) >> >> > >Yep, I imagine it would. :-) > > Zero operands Hmm 0 + 0 -> 0 , 0 - 0 -> 0, branch if 0 ... But the catch is the stack(s) for most 0 operand machines is local memory and often 256 words or so. In a FPGA that is only few ns of access time. Ben alias Woodelf From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 4 18:53:09 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 00:53:09 GMT Subject: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner In-Reply-To: Richard "Re: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner" (Jan 4, 10:56) References: Message-ID: <10601050053.ZM61@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 4 2006, 10:56, Richard wrote: > In article <10601040813.ZM28391 at mindy.dunnington.plus.com>, > Pete Turnbull writes: > > There should be, on all BA11-M, BA11-N, and BA11-S boxes (except some > > expansion boxes that have no LED/switch panel at all) though depending > > on the box, it may be labelled LTC or AUX. Incidentally, on a BA23, the power control is brought out to the standard 3-pin Mate-N-Lock labelled J6, on the back of the chassis, at the left, near the IEC mains inlet. > Mine is labelled "AUX On/Off" and I didn't know what it did. > > On the 861 power conditioner there is a connector labelled J2. Is > this where the switch connects up? If it's a 3-pin AMP Commercial Mate-N-Lock, then yes it's the power control bus. There should be two connectors, actually, so you can daisy-chain cabinets/controllers. As Henk said in a separate reply, the controllers normally have only mains power outlets and two or three control sockets. On my 861Bs there are 8 mains outlets on the left, 4 on the right, and the ON/OFF/REMOTE switch is towards the right, with one unlabelled power control socket to the left of it, and two more to the right. On my 871Bs, on the smaller QBus cabinets, there are three pairs of mains outlets, with the ON/OFF/REMOTE switch just to the right of centre above one pair, and two power control connectors labelled J1 and J2 above the rightmost pair. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 4 19:04:00 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 01:04:00 GMT Subject: RT11 boot block 0 words ? In-Reply-To: "Gooijen, Henk" "RT11 boot block 0 words ?" (Jan 4, 21:49) References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2281@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <10601050104.ZM123@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 4 2006, 21:49, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > I would like to use the vast knowledge of this community, as a brief > search through the calssiccmp archive gave no answer ... > I can't get RT11 booted anymore on my 11/34. > Is the first word (000240) the first word of block 0 of the RT11 bootstrap? Yes, AFAIR all standard DEC bootstraps have 240 as the first word of the boot block. 240 is NOP. Somebody once told me why they're done that way, but I can't remember; only that it seemed sensible at the time. The only exceptions I know are the not-really-bootstraps on the first block of non-bootable RSX disks, which contain a little bit of code that prints something like "This is not a bootable disk" to the console, and then halts. It sounds a bit like your boot block has been wiped, and mostly replaced with zeros. Can you load the first block off the disk manually, preferably not into location 000000, and examine it? Should be fairly easy with an RL11. Then try some other block and make sure that's not all zeros, to ensure it's the disk content you're seeing, not some problem with the controller. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 4 19:26:16 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 18:26:16 -0700 Subject: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 05 Jan 2006 00:53:09 +0000. <10601050053.ZM61@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: In article <10601050053.ZM61 at mindy.dunnington.plus.com>, Pete Turnbull writes: > On my 861Bs there are 8 mains outlets on the left, 4 on the right, and > the ON/OFF/REMOTE switch is towards the right, with one unlabelled > power control socket to the left of it, and two more to the right. OK, I looked at it more carefully... its an 871, not an 861. It has 6 switched outlets and 2 3-conductor connectors labelled J1 and J2. J1 has something plugged into it that goes into the cabinet somewhere. Switching to "remote on", and then applying power everywhere and diddling the AUX ON/OFF switch did nothing. I'll have to trace where this cable from J1 goes in the cabinet to find out more. A couple people said that the docs on this were at bitsavers.org, but I couldn't find it. URL anyone? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jan 4 19:31:48 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 20:31:48 -0500 Subject: RT11 boot block 0 words ? In-Reply-To: <10601050104.ZM123@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2281@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <10601050104.ZM123@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <43BC7704.3080208@compsys.to> >Pete Turnbull wrote: >>On Jan 4 2006, 21:49, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > >>I would like to use the vast knowledge of this community, as a brief >>search through the calssiccmp archive gave no answer ... >>I can't get RT11 booted anymore on my 11/34. >> >>Is the first word (000240) the first word of block 0 of the RT11 >>bootstrap? >> >Yes, AFAIR all standard DEC bootstraps have 240 as the first word of >the boot block. 240 is NOP. Somebody once told me why they're done >that way, but I can't remember; only that it seemed sensible at the >time. The only exceptions I know are the not-really-bootstraps on the >first block of non-bootable RSX disks, which contain a little bit of >code that prints something like "This is not a bootable disk" to the >console, and then halts. > >It sounds a bit like your boot block has been wiped, and mostly >replaced with zeros. Can you load the first block off the disk >manually, preferably not into location 000000, and examine it? Should >be fairly easy with an RL11. Then try some other block and make sure >that's not all zeros, to ensure it's the disk content you're seeing, >not some problem with the controller. > Jerome Fine replies: Tony is correct. The boot block does start with 240 for the RL02. If you know the approximate version of RT-11 and the flavour of the monitor (RT11FB, RT11XM, etc.), most of the rest of the boot block at block zero can be described. Of course, if you did that, you also would have read the RL02 pack! One method of making sure that the RL02 pack is not changed is to WRITE PROTECT the pack so that it can't be changed - PERIOD! While some operating systems can't run, RT-11 is PERFECTLY happy using this method of making sure that the system disk (or any other for that matter) is not altered. Of course, you also can't save any new files. BUT, you can turn off the WRITE PROTECT at any time and save one file at a time when you actually have something to save. NOTE that RT-11 must also write first to the directory, so if you use this method, best to use VM: and copy the file in one operation using PIP after the file is complete. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 4 18:25:54 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 00:25:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <20060103210220.5833d745.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jan 3, 6 09:02:20 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:51:56 +0000 (GMT) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > > > > > I'll say again that I have never had difficulty using an ordinary > > > long-handle flatblade screwdriver wedged into the TORX screwhead > > > > If you do this and mangle the heads of the screws sufficiently that you > > can't turn them with the right tool either, you are going to have one > > hell of a job drilling them out. > > > > I've never had this problem. I don't 'bull' the screw out with > brute force. A common flat-blade screwdriver tip nests tightly > into the torque head and the screws are easily backed out. You > determine 'proper fit' by trying the screwdriver blade in the > easily accessable case-back screws. Sure, that probabbly is fine 99.999% of the time. But the one time it doesn't work, and you do mangle the deeply recessed screws is the time you have real problems trying to get them out. I have, alas, seen far too many jobs made a lot more difficult by people using the wrong tool on fasteners. Drilling out screws is not fun at the best of times, hidden inside the handle of a compact Mac is probably one of the worst places they could be. > > > I never bought a specail tool to open Macs. I just used the Xcellite > > System 99 Torx drivers with the X5 extension. Fits perfectly, and it's in > > my normal toolkit. > > My point in making my first comment was that not everybody has a > huge collection of tools, and the thread was starting to develop 3 items from the Xcellite 99 range (the TX15 bit, the X5 extension and the 99-1 handle) is not a huge collection of tools. Nor are they particularly expensive. And others have posted that in the States it's easy to get a long-shafted TX15 driver (they are very uncommon in the UK), specifically for opening such machines. I have no idea how much they cost, but I'll bet it's a lot less than I'd charge for getting those screws out without damaging the rest of the machine if you did chew up the heads. > in a way that somebody was going to have to head out and buy > expensive new tools. It was a 'common sense' post, to make sure > people knew they did NOT have to view their lack of an unusually > long T15 torx screwdriver as a barrier. > > 'The exact tool' is a nice thing to have, but not all people here > also collect tools. I don't collect tools (well, not really, although I have been known to buy some really odd second-hand stuff becuase it looks interesting...), I do like to use the right tool if it's available. It is claimed that 'the bad workman blames his tools'. I have always thoguht that this comes from the fact that the good workman buys good tools, looks after them, and uses the right tool for the job. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 4 18:30:46 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 00:30:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 3, 6 07:29:00 pm Message-ID: > However, this idea that there's a way to powerup from the front panel > on an 11/03 intrigues me! Unfortunately I see no obvious button that > powers up the machine. Is this possible with an 861 and if there is > not existing switch, what would you add to enable this feature? It is certainly possible to do this with an 861 (I have an 861 in one of the cabinets of my 11/45 system, it works with the other assorted power controllers, all of which fire up whrn I turn the front panel key). Near that toggle switch are some 3 pin connectors (I think a total of 3 of them). They are all equivalent, you can use any one of them. Shorting the right pair of pins together with the switch in the Remote-On position will turn everything on. You can find out which the right pins are from the printset, or you can convince me to look in the printset. Once you know that, you need to get a plug that will fit that socket. It's a standard AMP Mate-N-Lock I think. Wire one end of a piece of (2 core) cable to the right pins on the connector. The other end of the cable needs to go to suitable switch contacts. I am not sure if you have a switch on the 11/03 box (it depends, probale, on the box, and anyway I am not a Qbus person). If not, just use any on/off switch. The voltage is around 24V, the current is well under 1A (and it's isolated from the mains line), so just about any swtich would do. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 4 18:35:17 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 00:35:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: relay logic In-Reply-To: <200601040305.WAA28534@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jan 3, 6 10:01:00 pm Message-ID: > > > Incidentally, I made a relay flup-flop without realising it a few months > > back. I had a pair of contactors (high-power relays, basically) that > > were mechnaically interlocked so they couldn't both close together > > and electrically [mutually inverting-coupled]. > > > I fairly quickly relaised it was logically equivalent to a pair of > > cross-coupled NOR gates -- the classic Eccles-Jordan circuit. > > Actually, cross-coupled NAND gates - unless you count "power present" > as a logic 0, rather than 1 - because the "maintain memory" state is I was thinkig of it as two normally-closed contacts in series -- the control switch (which as you say is normally on, and is turned off briefly to flip the state), and the contact of the 'other' relay. Now, you get an output (current) iff both swtiches are in the non-operated state (i.e. both closed). Which, denoting an unoperated swtich as '0'. an operated switch as '1' and an output current as 1, gives me this truth table. In 1 In 2 Out 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 Which I call a NOR gate. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 4 18:37:37 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 00:37:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: relay logic In-Reply-To: <200601032003460282.1364589D@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 3, 6 08:03:46 pm Message-ID: > > Relay logic can depend on more than simple make/break on > coil-current-present types. > > Stepping relays were used in telephone and logic systems. I used to have a > telephone relay with two windings on the same electromagnet. I'm not sure, > but I suspect the two might have been used as sort of a logical "AND" > function. Latching relays use multiple coils also. Mutlipe windings on telehpone relays can have many functions, including acting as an inverter (pass a constant current through one winding, the relay pulls in, pass the same current through the other winding in the opposite direction, the magnetic fields cancel, it drops out), provinding 2 inputs to the relay (either or both coils energised in the same direction will make it pull in), and even acting as an audio transformer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 4 19:10:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 01:10:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <200601041015430771.167053F9@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 4, 6 10:15:43 am Message-ID: > > What qualifies a CPU as "homebuilt"? Would an FPGA implementation qualify > as one? If not, why not? If FPGA is disqualifed, how about CPLD/GAL/PAL? > > I'm just trying to understand the rules of this thing. I am not sure there are any 'rules' but I would claim a homebuilt CPU implies 1) You had to do some soldering/wirewrapping 2) You didn't use a chip normally classed as a microprocessor _in the conventional way_. I have actually considered using a micro, say a Z80, to sequence through a ROM which is, say, 32 bits wide. 8 of those bits got to the Z80 data lines, the ROM contains mostly NOPs, with some JPs/JRs, and the odd IN instruction to read lines from my homebrew data path and control conditional jumps to go to theright routine in the ROM .The other 24 btis from the ROM control my data path, of course. While that would use a microprocessor, I would still class the overall circuit as a homebuilt CPU 3) You get to define the instruction set (wether by hardwiring, microcode, whatever). By my definition, FPGAs, PALs, GALs, CPLDs, gate+flip-flops, transistors, valves, relays, are all fine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 4 18:57:02 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 00:57:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: relay logic In-Reply-To: <003a01c61145$1b597160$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> from "Jim Beacon" at Jan 4, 6 03:39:52 pm Message-ID: > If you want the theory of relays, try Atkinson's "Telephony" (long out of > print, but many libraries have copies still). This is an excellent set of books (normally stated to be 2 volumes, there is a suplement to cover some 'new' exchanges, which is even harder to find), they were the books that finally got me to understand the telephone system when simpler books had failed (mainly because the latter had missed out all the good stuff). Volume 1 covers the subscriber sets (the telephones themselves) and manual swtichboards, Volume 2 covers automatic exchanges. The latter is the one you really want, although you probably should read them both. They do turn up second-hand from time to time (I've even found them in charity shops!), but they are not that common. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 4 19:25:00 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 01:25:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VAXStation 8000? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 4, 6 12:07:55 pm Message-ID: > Yep, I don't think I ever saw them inside E&S either. I saw a PS390 > and plenty of ESVs, but I never saw a VS8000. The internal name was > "Shadowfax", IIRC. Was it? I thogght I read somewhere that a custom chip in the PS390 that removes stairsteps from diagnonal lines, etc, was called the Shadowfax chip. -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 4 19:30:14 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 01:30:14 GMT Subject: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner In-Reply-To: Pete Turnbull "Re: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner" (Jan 5, 0:53) References: <10601050053.ZM61@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <10601050130.ZM173@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 5 2006, 0:53, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Jan 4 2006, 10:56, Richard wrote: > > Mine is labelled "AUX On/Off" and I didn't know what it did. > > > > On the 861 power conditioner there is a connector labelled J2. Is > > this where the switch connects up? > > If it's a 3-pin AMP Commercial Mate-N-Lock, then yes it's the power > control bus. I should have added: There's a fairly good picture at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/AMP-Mate-N-Lock3.jpg if you don't know what those connectors look like. The one on the left is the one that goes on each end of the control cable; the one on the right is the one you'll find on the 861, 871 or 874 controllers and the panel carrying the AUX switch. They are, incidentally, the same range of connectors used for the full-size 4-way power connector on disk drives and the like. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 4 20:10:29 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 19:10:29 -0700 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43BC8015.7060909@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >I am not sure there are any 'rules' but I would claim a homebuilt CPU >implies > >By my definition, FPGAs, PALs, GALs, CPLDs, gate+flip-flops, transistors, >valves, relays, are all fine. > > > Next topic --- Organic computer systems used to improve or change biological things -- the next step after silicon computers? Do you need to lose weight ... let our patent pending program change the unwanted fat cells in your body to something more usefull like brain cells and have a free extra brain. Would you like 3 extra arms, fur or a tail for next year's hallween party. Jurrasic park at home ... amuse your freinds ... get rid of unwanted guests ... have the biggest pet on the block. --- Note It might be wise to backup your DNA first, and not on a floppy. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 4 20:21:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 18:21:54 -0800 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - In-Reply-To: <01C61167.7E6834E0@MSE_D03> References: <01C61167.7E6834E0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <200601041821540665.182D6D89@10.0.0.252> On 1/4/2006 at 7:43 PM M H Stein wrote: >Arrghh... do we always have to have these discussions about which CPU/ >computer/OS/language etc. etc. is better/more useful than xyz? >More useful for what, when, for whom, at what cost, yadda, yadda...? First of all, recall that the original thread of this was "To a Z80/8080/85 programmer, how does a 6502 look?" It appears to me that this discussion is on topic. I made the observation earlier in the thread that instruction set appears to make less of a difference than one might otherwise think. Of course you can do anything with a one-instruction CPU; even emulate the hairiest of CISCs. But arguing because you can do this, instruction set details make no difference, so therefore any discussion of them is pointless, would be a mistake, I think. There are instruction sets and architectures that lend themselves to more straightforward HLL implementations. After all, isn't this the reason that some have created CPUs that interpret P-codes directly? Because of its implementation of a fixed-address small stack and lack of 16-bit indexing, I observed that the 6502 looks more like a microcontroller than does the 6800, yet the 6800 architecture is far more common as a microcontroller the 6502; and the 6502 was more common in personal computer applications that the 6800. This would appear to be contrary to expectations. I'm sure that the cost and availability of the 6502 had a lot to do with its application in PCs. >And how does software being written for a 16-bit 6809 (three years newer >than the 6502) say anything about the relative merits of the even older >6800? I suppose that software being written for the Pentium proves >that an 8080 was better than a Z80? Non sequitur. The 6809 was tossed in as a response to my query about what HLLs have been implemented on the 6502. My response was that the 6809 was not a 6502, nor was it derived from one; proffering it in a discussion of 6502 software was a red herring. If anything, the 6809 was closer to a 6800 in philosophy. >As a matter of interest, the 6502 was the successor to the 6501, >pin-compatible with the 6800 and not that much different. I believe that I'd already observed that much earlier in this thread. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 4 20:43:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 18:43:31 -0800 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601041843310353.18413698@10.0.0.252> On 1/5/2006 at 1:10 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >By my definition, FPGAs, PALs, GALs, CPLDs, gate+flip-flops, transistors, >valves, relays, are all fine. Magnetic core logic? Cheers, Chuck From rcini at optonline.net Wed Jan 4 20:43:40 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:43:40 -0500 Subject: Old Mac SW help Message-ID: <003001c611a1$d5fd1e20$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: If I could prevail upon the Mac guru's kindness again, but I'm looking for working copies of Microsoft BASIC for the Macintosh version 1.0. This is the 68k version of MS-BASIC. It's a two-disk set and one disk is flaky and one is definitely bad. If someone has this and is willing to make a Stuffit archive for me, I'd appreciate it. TIA! Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed Jan 4 20:49:47 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:49:47 -0500 Subject: VAXStation 8000? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060105024947.E215CBA480E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Yep, I don't think I ever saw them inside E&S either. I saw a PS390 > > and plenty of ESVs, but I never saw a VS8000. The internal name was > > "Shadowfax", IIRC. > > Was it? I thogght I read somewhere that a custom chip in the PS390 that > removes stairsteps from diagnonal lines, etc, was called the Shadowfax chip. Best code names always mix part of a conceivably relevant but incorrect technology/geographic area that is already known to be involved in something superficially related, just to confuse everyone. e.g. Manhattan Project (really nowhere near manhattan), Tubealloy (had nothing to do with alloys for tubes), Radiation Lab (was Radar, not nuclear) etc. just to pick 3 from WWII. Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed Jan 4 20:52:53 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:52:53 -0500 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <200601041843310353.18413698@10.0.0.252> References: <200601041843310353.18413698@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060105025253.CC0F5BA480E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 1/5/2006 at 1:10 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >By my definition, FPGAs, PALs, GALs, CPLDs, gate+flip-flops, transistors, > >valves, relays, are all fine. > > Magnetic core logic? Cryotron logic! Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 4 21:08:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 19:08:43 -0800 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <20060105025253.CC0F5BA480E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200601041843310353.18413698@10.0.0.252> <20060105025253.CC0F5BA480E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200601041908430698.18584A30@10.0.0.252> On 1/4/2006 at 9:52 PM shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: >Cryotron logic! Microwave logic? Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 4 21:13:27 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 20:13:27 -0700 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <20060105025253.CC0F5BA480E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200601041843310353.18413698@10.0.0.252> <20060105025253.CC0F5BA480E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <43BC8ED7.8030304@jetnet.ab.ca> Tim Shoppa wrote: >Cryotron logic! > > That is super-conductor logic right? That was to take place of core-memory. Fluid logic is another odd logic. Von-Neuman's Cellular logic needs to wait for atomic scaled machines. Ben alias Woodelf. PS. Move machines are neat, but not practical -- http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/arch/risc/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jan 4 22:27:51 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:27:51 Subject: Available for pickup. In-Reply-To: References: <43A565A8.4060101@yahoo.co.uk> <0INH00FUMBX0JG70@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <364FE944-497D-4C01-BCDB-F40D46E57438@mind-to-mind.com> <43A2EFE4.5010003@yahoo.co.uk> <43A565A8.4060101@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060104222751.1a1f9f12@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I have some pre-HP Apollo stuff that getting ready to dump. I think there are three keyboards in the pile. E-mail me directly if interested since I seldom read the list messages anymore. Joe At 01:52 AM 12/26/05 -0500, you wrote: > >On Dec 18, 2005, at 8:35 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Did you get Domain keyboards? They always seem to go missing (a bit >> like the proprietary SGI ones often do), and you can't run DomainOS >> without them. > >Sadly, no. Makes testing them hard ;-) > From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Jan 4 22:14:19 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 20:14:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <200601041843310353.18413698@10.0.0.252> References: <200601041843310353.18413698@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/5/2006 at 1:10 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > >> By my definition, FPGAs, PALs, GALs, CPLDs, gate+flip-flops, transistors, >> valves, relays, are all fine. > > Magnetic core logic? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > EL-PC logic? (ElectroLuminescent-PhotoConductor) Neon bulb logic? Tunnel Diode logic? PLO logic? (Parametric phase-Locked Oscillator - Parametrons are one variety) Peter Wallace From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 4 22:55:22 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:55:22 -0700 Subject: Apollo DN10000 (was: Available for pickup. ) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:27:51. <3.0.6.16.20060104222751.1a1f9f12@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: Speaking of pre-HP Apollo, does anyone on this list have an Apollo DN10000? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 4 22:56:30 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:56:30 -0700 Subject: VAXStation 8000? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 05 Jan 2006 01:25:00 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > Yep, I don't think I ever saw them inside E&S either. I saw a PS390 > > and plenty of ESVs, but I never saw a VS8000. The internal name was > > "Shadowfax", IIRC. > > Was it? I thogght I read somewhere that a custom chip in the PS390 that > removes stairsteps from diagnonal lines, etc, was called the Shadowfax chip. I didn't work directly on the project and my memory may be playing tricks on me! When you join a company and previous engineers all talk about the code names for previous projects, they tend to get mixed around in my head. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Jan 4 23:26:50 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 00:26:50 -0500 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <200601041908430698.18584A30@10.0.0.252> References: <20060105025253.CC0F5BA480E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200601041908430698.18584A30@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601050026.50303.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 04 January 2006 10:08 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/4/2006 at 9:52 PM shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > >Cryotron logic! > > Microwave logic? Getting positively photonic, are we? Neutrino logic? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Jan 4 23:38:51 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 00:38:51 -0500 Subject: ompupro 8085/8088 switchover problem In-Reply-To: <200601050515.k055FTp7085385@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <011a01c611ba$5832eec0$6601a8c0@barry> I've had a lot of DIP switches go bad, usually open no matter what you set them to. Don't ignore that possibility in your troubleshooting. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 4 23:57:52 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:57:52 -0700 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <200601050026.50303.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <20060105025253.CC0F5BA480E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200601041908430698.18584A30@10.0.0.252> <200601050026.50303.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <43BCB560.8030000@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >On Wednesday 04 January 2006 10:08 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >>On 1/4/2006 at 9:52 PM shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: >> >> >>>Cryotron logic! >>> >>> >>Microwave logic? >> >> > >Getting positively photonic, are we? > >Neutrino logic? > > Neutrino's may not exist. http://www.autodynamics.org/main/ I also can't say much for quantum computing . Ben alias woodelf From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Jan 5 00:16:03 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 00:16:03 -0600 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs Message-ID: <64750a0417294e67ae6afe721e7ee56f@valleyimplants.com> > Technical -- Reverse Engineering. > Layman -- Piracy. Significant difference- in reverse engineering you copy what something does, in piracy you copy what it is. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 5 00:22:20 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:22:20 -0800 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <200601041843310353.18413698@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601042222200567.19098B96@10.0.0.252> On 1/4/2006 at 8:14 PM Peter C. Wallace wrote: >Neon bulb logic? Kind of neat in that the logic state is visible. Hard to use for anything more than simple circuits--aging and uniformity are real problems. I built a couple of ring counters using them though. Why not Shockley diodes? Anyone remember the Shockley demo of a diode-only audio amplifier back in the 60's? >Tunnel Diode logic? Still got about a dozen of those things in my hellbox. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 5 00:26:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 22:26:34 -0800 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <200601050026.50303.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <20060105025253.CC0F5BA480E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200601041908430698.18584A30@10.0.0.252> <200601050026.50303.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200601042226340942.190D6D34@10.0.0.252> On 1/5/2006 at 12:26 AM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Getting positively photonic, are we? It's the real thing, using stripline techniques. I found a recent reference: http://eetimes.com/news/98/1021news/cooper_union.html It's touted as something new, but I can recall reading about this in the 60s. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 5 00:58:27 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 23:58:27 -0700 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <64750a0417294e67ae6afe721e7ee56f@valleyimplants.com> References: <64750a0417294e67ae6afe721e7ee56f@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <43BCC393.3010502@jetnet.ab.ca> compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: >>Technical -- Reverse Engineering. >> > Layman -- Piracy. >> >> Significant difference- in reverse engineering you copy what something does, in piracy you copy what it is. >> >> But I can't think of a simple word other that.With reverse enginering you copy the design if not the hardware. If you had the hardware access, why would you need to findout what it does and how to do it yourself? http://www.village.org/pdp11/faq.pages/Soviet11s.html Dec Clone's for example. From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Thu Jan 5 01:10:58 2006 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 08:10:58 +0100 (MET) Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? Message-ID: <11539.1136445058@www37.gmx.net> Hello folks, hopefully all of you enjoyed your holidays and festivities. > > One of the problems with old Selectrics is eventually the neoprene > > drive belt deteriorates and breaks. I'm no Selectric repairman, but > > a peek inside a nice wide-carriage Selectric III that I've got > > stashed away looks like replacement of said belt is a major > > operation and probably not worth the trouble. Woohoo - good news, that (< I have never seen inside a Selectric, but I've heard that to change one > of the belts you have to remove the main shaft, which is a major > operation. It certainly looks like a lot of work in mine; I also fear there might be adjustments involved but I haven't tried to obtain a service manual yet. > I was told that if you do this, slip 2 belts over the shaft and tape > one to the side of the chassis out of the way. Next time it breaks, > work that spare one onto the pulleys. That sounds like a perfectly sane approach, provided there's enough space in there so I can keep the belt out of the way. Thanks for suggesting this before I attack the problem. Yours sincerely, -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de 10 GB Mailbox, 100 FreeSMS/Monat http://www.gmx.net/de/go/topmail +++ GMX - die erste Adresse f?r Mail, Message, More +++ From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Thu Jan 5 01:12:51 2006 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 08:12:51 +0100 (MET) Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) Message-ID: <14595.1136445171@www37.gmx.net> Tony Duell wrote: > I know I have some of the BASIC coding forms for the TRS-80 model 1 > around here somwehre. (...) > I should have some coding forms for the HP9100 calculator around here > too, and maybe some for the HP67. The only ones I have are fairly specialized, they're for the Triumph- Adler Factura 100 (German electronic computing typewriter for invoices, accounting work and such). I got them from my Grandad who worked in a business machine shop and used to write programs for them according to the customer's specification, and I've already started a half-hearted attempt to recreate them as Excel spreadsheets. Yours sincerely, -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Lust, ein paar Euro nebenbei zu verdienen? Ohne Kosten, ohne Risiko! Satte Provisionen f?r GMX Partner: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/partner From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Thu Jan 5 01:15:56 2006 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 08:15:56 +0100 (MET) Subject: Fischertechnik BBC Micro interface Message-ID: <20966.1136445356@www37.gmx.net> Tony Duell wrote: > About 20 years ago, there was a Fischertechnik robotics kit. This > contains the usual blocks, gears, etc, 2 small motors, 3 lamps, an > electromagnet, 8 switches and 2 pots. And no other electonic parts. > > There were various interfaces sold for this, at the time they were > very expensive and not suitable for the machines I had. So I did > the obvious thing and boilt my own... I know we have a similar unit for the Commodore C64. My father bought it since he had both Fischertechnik stuff and a C64, but I don't think we ever had the robotics kit you mention. Using the interface just to switch two or three motors on and off doesn't seem that interesting, so perhaps he also thought of it more like a general purpose interface. Even more stuff to try out some day - wish me a long life... -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Telefonieren Sie schon oder sparen Sie noch? NEU: GMX Phone_Flat http://www.gmx.net/de/go/telefonie From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 5 01:17:39 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 00:17:39 -0700 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <200601042222200567.19098B96@10.0.0.252> References: <200601041843310353.18413698@10.0.0.252> <200601042222200567.19098B96@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43BCC813.9020507@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >Kind of neat in that the logic state is visible. Hard to use for anything >more than simple circuits--aging and uniformity are real problems. I built >a couple of ring counters using them though. > >Why not Shockley diodes? Anyone remember the Shockley demo of a diode-only >audio amplifier back in the 60's? > > I found one online reference but no schematic. :( From systemextra at systemextra.ltd.uk Wed Jan 4 10:37:16 2006 From: systemextra at systemextra.ltd.uk (Alun Jones) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 16:37:16 -0000 Subject: For Trade: SGI 4D series boards, memory, etc Message-ID: Hi Mark I am looking for the following items can you help? 018-0495-001 Cable 018-0496-001 Cable 013-1203-001 I/F 012-1204-001 I/F Alun Computer Support Services Specialising in Image Graphics and Unix Systems. Alun Jones Director Systemextra Limited, Woodyard House, Daux Road, Billingshurst, West Sussex, UK RH14 9SJ. Tel: +44 (0)1403 784754 Fax: +44 (0)1403 783921 email: systemextra at systemextra.ltd.uk http://www.systemextra.ltd.uk * "This E-mail is only for the use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential information. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately, delete the E-mail and do not use or disseminate its contents." From qed_computers at yahoo.com Wed Jan 4 15:28:10 2006 From: qed_computers at yahoo.com (Nader Qandah) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 13:28:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: RA60 packs available Message-ID: <20060104212810.96695.qmail@web35902.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Sir, Kindly send me your quote for the RA60 pack and the condition and quantity of these packs including delivery to Jordan. BEST WISHES Nader Qandah __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From Useddec at aol.com Thu Jan 5 01:54:48 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 02:54:48 EST Subject: hard drives Message-ID: <28c.39b2d50.30ee2ac8@aol.com> There has been some recent reference to ST225 drives. That reminded me that I had a shelf (which I need) full of drives I purchased from a maintaince company as surplus spares. Most units were tested and sealed in static bags. Any interest? Here is a partial list. Some are more than qty one. Epson HMD 720 360K full height Computer Memories 6426S Connor CP334 Seagate 212 225 225N 251 4026 412 506 Miniscribe 2012 8425 CM4510 Olviletti D5126H XM/5220/2 Shugart 712 Tandon TM252 TM262 Micropolis 1355 (non-tested, non-baged) I hope that I read all the model numbers correctly through the static bags. Thanks, Paul From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu Jan 5 02:11:07 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:11:07 +0100 Subject: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF25E1@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I can see the problem :-) The power controller is most of the time a part of a complete printset of a machine. That is also the case with the PSUs. Anyway, check out: http://www.mainecoon.com/classiccmp/861%20controller/ (for 861) http://www.mainecoon.com/classiccmp/PDP-11-44/ (has the 877) hope that helps a little. - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: donderdag 5 januari 2006 2:26 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC 874-A Power Conditioner > > > In article <10601050053.ZM61 at mindy.dunnington.plus.com>, > Pete Turnbull writes: > > > On my 861Bs there are 8 mains outlets on the left, 4 on the > right, and > > the ON/OFF/REMOTE switch is towards the right, with one unlabelled > > power control socket to the left of it, and two more to the right. > > OK, I looked at it more carefully... its an 871, not an 861. > > It has 6 switched outlets and 2 3-conductor connectors > labelled J1 and J2. J1 has something plugged into it that > goes into the cabinet somewhere. Switching to "remote on", > and then applying power everywhere and diddling the AUX > ON/OFF switch did nothing. I'll have to trace where this > cable from J1 goes in the cabinet to find out more. > > A couple people said that the docs on this were at > bitsavers.org, but I couldn't find it. URL anyone? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From jnugen at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 02:13:39 2006 From: jnugen at gmail.com (James Nugen) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 03:13:39 -0500 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <43BC8ED7.8030304@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200601041843310353.18413698@10.0.0.252> <20060105025253.CC0F5BA480E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <43BC8ED7.8030304@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Move machines are pretty neat! And they can be practical. In fact Maxim has a new microcontroller line that is a move machine: http://www.maxim-ic.com/products/microcontrollers/maxq I also choose to use the Move architecture for my relay computer! -James Nugen On 1/4/06, woodelf wrote: > > PS. Move machines are neat, but not practical -- > http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/arch/risc/ > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jan 5 03:00:54 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 04:00:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <43BCC393.3010502@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <64750a0417294e67ae6afe721e7ee56f@valleyimplants.com> <43BCC393.3010502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200601050903.EAA26698@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > But I can't think of a simple word other that. With reverse > enginering you copy the design if not the hardware. No. With reverse engineering you *understand* the design. Whether or not you build a copy of it is irrelevant (to the reverse engineering aspect, at least). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 5 03:05:47 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 01:05:47 -0800 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs References: <200601041843310353.18413698@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43BCE16B.E9387DDB@cs.ubc.ca> "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > Neon bulb logic? (... there was a long thread here about this a few months back.) > Tunnel Diode logic? Ran into these recently in a Systron-Donner frequency counter from the 60s, formed into a ring counter for the high-speed counting stage (first decade) where 'high-speed' == all of 50MHz. From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Jan 5 04:03:27 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 04:03:27 -0600 Subject: Cool software find Message-ID: <43BCEEEF.1000309@mdrconsult.com> I'm going through some cartons of "Someday Stuff" - things I've accumulated with the intent of using or trying, but not right now. I found a box of floppies I just barely remember buying, and then not having a clue how to install. It's old SCO stuff: UNIX System V/386 v3.2.0 N1-N3 UFA1-UFA2 B1-B8 X1-X10 Open Desktop v1.0 N1-N5 type 386GT P1-P37 Open Desktop v1.1.0 N1-5 type 386GT N1 type ku386 UF1-UF2 P1-P37 Disk P1 of the ODT v1.0 set is labeled bad, and I don't have they activation keys for it, but the SysV/386 and ODT v1.1 look good, and have serials and activation keys. Of course, there are no docs at all other than the license code sheets, so I don't know if these are complete, even. At least they're all sequential sets. :) Doc From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Jan 5 06:20:44 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 07:20:44 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: References: <20060103210220.5833d745.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20060105072044.2834e9fe.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 00:25:54 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:51:56 +0000 (GMT) > > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > I've never had this problem. I don't 'bull' the screw out with > > brute force. A common flat-blade screwdriver tip nests tightly > > into the torque head and the screws are easily backed out. You > > determine 'proper fit' by trying the screwdriver blade in the > > easily accessable case-back screws. > > > Sure, that probabbly is fine 99.999% of the time. But the one time it > doesn't work, and you do mangle the deeply recessed screws is the time > you have real problems trying to get them out. > I'm not performing this operation 100,000 times. If I were, I would definitely go out and get the long handled T15 Torx Screwdriver. > > It is claimed that 'the bad workman blames his tools'. I have always > thoguht that this comes from the fact that the good workman buys good > tools, looks after them, and uses the right tool for the job. I'm not sure who makes that claim, though it is a saying from folklore. A true craftsman can make do with what is available, and leverage his skills and dexterity, rather than just go out and buy more specialized tools. From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jan 5 06:41:38 2006 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:41:38 -0000 Subject: Appropriate tools - was Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <20060105072044.2834e9fe.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000001c611f5$5f137c10$655b2c0a@w2kdell> > > It is claimed that 'the bad workman blames his tools'. I have always > > thoguht that this comes from the fact that the good workman buys good > > tools, looks after them, and uses the right tool for the job. > > I'm not sure who makes that claim, though it is a saying from > folklore. ... > The sting in the tail of this saying is that traditionally (that is porbably until the 1930s/1940s) a workman made his own tools - and thus blaming them was blaming one's own workmanship. Also the reason why (again, traditionally - tho' this tradition only just about survives) you never use someone else's tools without their permission - or even touch them. Andy From charlesmorris at direcway.com Thu Jan 5 08:57:04 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 08:57:04 -0600 Subject: More RLV12/RL02 problems (faults on Write) In-Reply-To: <200601050515.k055Ffqn085410@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601050515.k055Ffqn085410@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 23:15:48 -0600 (CST), you wrote: >It sounds very much like he could have blown something on the controller the >first time when he wired it wrong, and said it got "hot". That was only referring to the transistor that drives the POK signal. It survived. I had also found that the "upside-down and backwards" hookup places two 75113 drivers in contention - but they are not fried either. >Either that or, I'd still blame the cable. I haven't known qbus cards to >just go bad like that. Unlikely given that all read tests pass and the system boots... and the Write Data and Write Gate signals are making it to the logic board in the RL02, by direct measurement. I missed the fact that the error code returned by the toggle-in program (102210) actually has WDE (15) as well as WGE (10) set. I am not sure which came first (i.e. the write data error resulted from the Fault/head withdrawal after the write gate error, or vice versa). But the problem could also be on the drive's R/W board. There is some logic there that can cause a WDE. I'm not sure what fault happens if there is a bad steering diode or write current source. More as I investigate... I may have to fix the faulty p/s on my Tek 7403 so I can plug in the logic analyzer! That will tell me for sure which line is first. -Charles From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Jan 5 09:17:25 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 07:17:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <200601042222200567.19098B96@10.0.0.252> References: <200601041843310353.18413698@10.0.0.252> <200601042222200567.19098B96@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/4/2006 at 8:14 PM Peter C. Wallace wrote: > >> Neon bulb logic? > > Kind of neat in that the logic state is visible. Hard to use for anything > more than simple circuits--aging and uniformity are real problems. I built > a couple of ring counters using them though. > > Why not Shockley diodes? Anyone remember the Shockley demo of a diode-only > audio amplifier back in the 60's? Isnt that just a four layer diode? voltage mode negative resistance? Just build it in GaP and you'll have a solid state 'Neon' :-) > >> Tunnel Diode logic? > > Still got about a dozen of those things in my hellbox. Hard to beat if you need a really fast (but low amplitude) edge > > Cheers, > Chuck > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Jan 5 09:24:35 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 10:24:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Raritan APSSUN key map In-Reply-To: <43BBDC5F.8060406@jcwren.com> References: <43BBDC5F.8060406@jcwren.com> Message-ID: Does anyone here have a list of the key mapping for Sun keys to PS/2 keys for the APSSUN converter? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mmaginnis at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 10:42:54 2006 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 09:42:54 -0700 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: References: <20060103210220.5833d745.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 1/4/06, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 00:51:56 +0000 (GMT) > > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I'll say again that I have never had difficulty using an ordinary > > > > long-handle flatblade screwdriver wedged into the TORX screwhead > > > > > > If you do this and mangle the heads of the screws sufficiently that you > > > can't turn them with the right tool either, you are going to have one > > > hell of a job drilling them out. > > > > > > > I've never had this problem. I don't 'bull' the screw out with > > brute force. A common flat-blade screwdriver tip nests tightly > > into the torque head and the screws are easily backed out. You > > determine 'proper fit' by trying the screwdriver blade in the > > easily accessable case-back screws. > > > Sure, that probabbly is fine 99.999% of the time. But the one time it > doesn't work, and you do mangle the deeply recessed screws is the time > you have real problems trying to get them out. > > I have, alas, seen far too many jobs made a lot more difficult by people > using the wrong tool on fasteners. Drilling out screws is not fun at the > best of times, hidden inside the handle of a compact Mac is probably one > of the worst places they could be. > > > > > > I never bought a specail tool to open Macs. I just used the Xcellite > > > System 99 Torx drivers with the X5 extension. Fits perfectly, and it's in > > > my normal toolkit. > > > > My point in making my first comment was that not everybody has a > > huge collection of tools, and the thread was starting to develop > > 3 items from the Xcellite 99 range (the TX15 bit, the X5 extension and > the 99-1 handle) is not a huge collection of tools. Nor are they > particularly expensive. And others have posted that in the States it's > easy to get a long-shafted TX15 driver (they are very uncommon in the > UK), specifically for opening such machines. I have no idea how much they > cost, but I'll bet it's a lot less than I'd charge for getting those > screws out without damaging the rest of the machine if you did chew up > the heads. > > > > in a way that somebody was going to have to head out and buy > > expensive new tools. It was a 'common sense' post, to make sure > > people knew they did NOT have to view their lack of an unusually > > long T15 torx screwdriver as a barrier. > > > > 'The exact tool' is a nice thing to have, but not all people here > > also collect tools. > > I don't collect tools (well, not really, although I have been known to > buy some really odd second-hand stuff becuase it looks interesting...), I > do like to use the right tool if it's available. > > It is claimed that 'the bad workman blames his tools'. I have always > thoguht that this comes from the fact that the good workman buys good > tools, looks after them, and uses the right tool for the job. > > -tony > I had always heard that saying refers to a workman with sub-par skills who is unable to face up to his own deficiencies and finds an external target on which to lay blame. And the version I heard was, "It's a poor musician who blames his instrument." - Mike From kth at srv.net Thu Jan 5 11:37:13 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 10:37:13 -0700 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <20060105072044.2834e9fe.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20060103210220.5833d745.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20060105072044.2834e9fe.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43BD5949.9@srv.net> Scott Stevens wrote: > I'm not sure who makes that claim, though it is a saying from > >folklore. A true craftsman can make do with what is available, >and leverage his skills and dexterity, rather than just go out >and buy more specialized tools. > > > Which is why real carpenters use hammers to drive screws. Why get them there new-fangled screwdriver thingies, when hammers work just as well. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 5 12:10:06 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:10:06 -0700 Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 05 Jan 2006 08:10:58 +0100. <11539.1136445058@www37.gmx.net> Message-ID: In article <11539.1136445058 at www37.gmx.net>, "Arno Kletzander" writes: > Also, how interchangeable are type balls among those machines? Its been my experience that if the ball fits on the spindle, then its compatible. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 5 12:19:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 10:19:29 -0800 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <200601041843310353.18413698@10.0.0.252> <200601042222200567.19098B96@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601051019290461.1B9A1CA6@10.0.0.252> On 1/5/2006 at 7:17 AM Peter C. Wallace wrote: >Isnt that just a four layer diode? voltage mode negative resistance? > >Just build it in GaP and you'll have a solid state 'Neon' :-) Hmmm, you may be onto something. Let's see, where did I put my bar of gallium and tank of phosphine? :) There's a guy who has a web site that describes building point-contact negative resistance 2-terminal devices out of galvanized steel. He can get them to oscillate. >Hard to beat if you need a really fast (but low amplitude) edge They make good broadband RF "sniffers" too. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 5 12:46:00 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:46:00 -0700 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <200601050903.EAA26698@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <64750a0417294e67ae6afe721e7ee56f@valleyimplants.com> <43BCC393.3010502@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601050903.EAA26698@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43BD6968.9040209@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: >No. With reverse engineering you *understand* the design. Whether or >not you build a copy of it is irrelevant (to the reverse engineering >aspect, at least). > > I get that by reading the docs, the schematic and using the machine. PS. I'll stick to schematics and docs no larger than a page for now, since I don't feel like doing a lot of thinking today. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 5 12:51:42 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:51:42 -0700 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43BD5949.9@srv.net> References: <20060103210220.5833d745.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20060105072044.2834e9fe.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43BD5949.9@srv.net> Message-ID: <43BD6ABE.8060803@jetnet.ab.ca> Kevin Handy wrote: >Which is why real carpenters use hammers to drive screws. >Why get them there new-fangled screwdriver thingies, when hammers work just as well. I use both, it the scewdrive don't work ... then the hammer. Note this was making one thouse "easy to assmble" cheap things that everybody sells. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jan 5 13:07:21 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:07:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <43BD6968.9040209@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <64750a0417294e67ae6afe721e7ee56f@valleyimplants.com> <43BCC393.3010502@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601050903.EAA26698@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43BD6968.9040209@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200601051908.OAA05113@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> No. With reverse engineering you *understand* the design. > I get that by reading the docs, the schematic and using the machine. With real docs (such as schematics) you don't _need_ to reverse-engineer. Reverse engineering, at least as I learned to use the term, refers to the process of deducing that kind of information from the device. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 13:26:24 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 14:26:24 -0500 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <200601051019290461.1B9A1CA6@10.0.0.252> References: <200601041843310353.18413698@10.0.0.252> <200601042222200567.19098B96@10.0.0.252> <200601051019290461.1B9A1CA6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43BD72E0.1040405@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>Isnt that just a four layer diode? voltage mode negative resistance? >> >>Just build it in GaP and you'll have a solid state 'Neon' :-) > > > Hmmm, you may be onto something. Let's see, where did I put my bar of > gallium and tank of phosphine? :) You have a bar of Gallium? Wouldn't it slowly turn into a blob on hot days? Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 5 14:15:23 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 13:15:23 -0700 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <200601041843310353.18413698@10.0.0.252> <20060105025253.CC0F5BA480E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <43BC8ED7.8030304@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <43BD7E5B.1050104@jetnet.ab.ca> James Nugen wrote: >Move machines are pretty neat! And they can be practical. In fact Maxim >has a new >microcontroller line that is a move machine: > >http://www.maxim-ic.com/products/microcontrollers/maxq > > > That looks very complex... They call it a Risc machine. >I also choose to use the Move architecture for my relay computer! > > > I like the idea of a I - indirect bit. Anybody have a nice 3 address computer instruction set aound other than xproz ? http://www.ee.washington.edu/circuit_archive/models/xilinxcpu/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 5 15:08:44 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 13:08:44 -0800 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <43BD72E0.1040405@gmail.com> References: <200601041843310353.18413698@10.0.0.252> <200601042222200567.19098B96@10.0.0.252> <200601051019290461.1B9A1CA6@10.0.0.252> <43BD72E0.1040405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200601051308440246.1C3513D5@10.0.0.252> On 1/5/2006 at 2:26 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >You have a bar of Gallium? Wouldn't it slowly turn into a blob on hot >days? When it's mushy it makes nice metallic makeup a la Buddy Ebsen and the Wizard of Oz (how's that for an obscure reference?) :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 5 15:08:52 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:08:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Where to buy a Selectric? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060105130719.T84929@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 5 Jan 2006, Richard wrote: > > Also, how interchangeable are type balls among those machines? > Its been my experience that if the ball fits on the spindle, then its > compatible. College pres' office paid for a field service repair. Turned out to be an APL typeball on one of the selectrics. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Jan 5 16:26:33 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:26:33 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 1/2/06, Jim Leonard wrote: > Eric J Korpela wrote: > > recall which model Coherent used. > > For Coherent 286, memory model was medium (segments were 64K, but you could > allocate as many as you wanted up to whatever was left out of 16MB total > RAM). For 386, it was full 32-bit, so I guess that's the huge model. I'd call that linear mode. By huge mode I mean "logically adjacent segments in 16 bit mode" so that pointer math can support objects larger than a segment. (i.e. segment=segment0+(offset/seg_size)*seg_incr; seg_offset=offset%seg_size; would be done automatically by the compiler. In DOS, seg_size could be 16 and seg_incr 1. In 286 protected mode, seg_size might be 64K and seg_incr would be 8 if I recall 286 protected mode stuff.) Virtual memory in 286 mode is one advantage OS/2 might have over any of the 286 unixes. I'm not sure if Xenix supported it. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 5 13:55:10 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 19:55:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <200601041843310353.18413698@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 4, 6 06:43:31 pm Message-ID: > > On 1/5/2006 at 1:10 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >By my definition, FPGAs, PALs, GALs, CPLDs, gate+flip-flops, transistors, > >valves, relays, are all fine. > > Magnetic core logic? Yes, and pulleys+string, hydraulics, whatever..... I was giving examples, not an exhaustive list. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 5 16:29:48 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 22:29:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <20060105072044.2834e9fe.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jan 5, 6 07:20:44 am Message-ID: > > Sure, that probabbly is fine 99.999% of the time. But the one time it > > doesn't work, and you do mangle the deeply recessed screws is the time > > you have real problems trying to get them out. > > > > I'm not performing this operation 100,000 times. If I were, I > would definitely go out and get the long handled T15 Torx > Screwdriver. It just takes the machine you're working on to have overtight screws, or the flatblade to be a bit too narrow to strip the heads and then you have problems. > > > > > It is claimed that 'the bad workman blames his tools'. I have always > > thoguht that this comes from the fact that the good workman buys good > > tools, looks after them, and uses the right tool for the job. > > I'm not sure who makes that claim, though it is a saying from > folklore. A true craftsman can make do with what is available, > and leverage his skills and dexterity, rather than just go out > and buy more specialized tools. A true craftsman (and for that matter a hardwre hacker) can, and will, make his own tools were necessary, sure. This is a far cry from using the wrong tools. I don't think you'll find _any_ craftsman who would use a flatblade screwdriver on a Torx head screw (or on a cross-head screw). Nor will you find him using a screwdriver as a chisel or a pry-bar. Or using a hammer to get a part off a shaft when a puller is the right tool to use. I have read many books on engineering, clockmaking, etc, and they all make the same sort of point. There are specialised tools that you need. Many of them can be made in a reasonable workshop, and in some cases that's the only way to get them. None of thse books recomend using the wrong tools... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 5 16:31:15 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 22:31:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Appropriate tools - was Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <000001c611f5$5f137c10$655b2c0a@w2kdell> from "Andy Holt" at Jan 5, 6 12:41:38 pm Message-ID: > > > > > It is claimed that 'the bad workman blames his tools'. I have always > > > thoguht that this comes from the fact that the good workman buys good > > > tools, looks after them, and uses the right tool for the job. > > > > I'm not sure who makes that claim, though it is a saying from > > folklore. ... > > > The sting in the tail of this saying is that traditionally (that is porbably > until the 1930s/1940s) a workman made his own tools - and thus blaming them Alas this seems to not be the case any more. > was blaming one's own workmanship. Also the reason why (again, > traditionally - tho' > this tradition only just about survives) you never use someone else's tools > without their permission - or even touch them. Perhaps I am very old-fashioned, but I've always assumed you don't use or even touch anybody else's property without there permission. That's just a matter of common courtesy. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 5 16:38:27 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 22:38:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <43BD6968.9040209@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Jan 5, 6 11:46:00 am Message-ID: > > der Mouse wrote: > > >No. With reverse engineering you *understand* the design. Whether or > >not you build a copy of it is irrelevant (to the reverse engineering > >aspect, at least). > > > > > I get that by reading the docs, the schematic and using the machine. That rather implies the schamtic is available. As we all, alas, know, that's sometimes not the case. In which case some of us are mad enough to sit down with the machine, a multimeter, and a pile of data books, and produce a schematic. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 5 16:24:39 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 22:24:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fischertechnik BBC Micro interface In-Reply-To: <20966.1136445356@www37.gmx.net> from "Arno Kletzander" at Jan 5, 6 08:15:56 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > About 20 years ago, there was a Fischertechnik robotics kit. This > > contains the usual blocks, gears, etc, 2 small motors, 3 lamps, an > > electromagnet, 8 switches and 2 pots. And no other electonic parts. > > > > There were various interfaces sold for this, at the time they were > > very expensive and not suitable for the machines I had. So I did > > the obvious thing and boilt my own... > > I know we have a similar unit for the Commodore C64. My father bought You don;'t happen to have the software disk for that in a readable condition, do you? As I mentioned, I didn't get any magnetic media with my Acorn interface, and it appears that the demonstration programs for the Acorn one were translated from a Commodore version, I would guess C64. Since the listing of the low-level driver is in the manual i have, I think I could repeat the translation if I had listings of the C64 programs... Of course quite how I read a C64 disk (or how you get the files to me) is another matter... > it since he had both Fischertechnik stuff and a C64, but I don't > think we ever had the robotics kit you mention. Using the interface > just to switch two or three motors on and off doesn't seem that > interesting, so perhaps he also thought of it more like a general > purpose interface. The interface was designed for the robotics kit, but it can be used with other stuff. It has the following facilities : 2 Resistive-input ADCs. These were designed to link to 5k variable resistors that are in the robotics kit, and AFAIK in no other kits. 8 contact-closure intputs. These are actually inputs to 5V CMOS chips, pulled down by a resistor). There's a 5V power line on the model connector. The robotics kit contains 8 of the mini-switches, but the manual says (obviously) you can use any other switch, a relay contact, or the output of one of the later FT modules that's TTL compatible. 4 Motor outputs. These are actually driven by TLE4201 chips. Each can drive a motor (full size or minimotor), electromagnetc, etc _and_ a lamp. The Robotics kit contains 2 minimotors + gearboxes, an electromagnet and 3 lamps. Normally, you connected a lamp in parallel with any motor or electromagnet that was being used so you could tell it was energised. I suspect, without trying it, you could link a load between each of the 8 motor output wires and the ground rail (-ve side of the external PSU). It appears each of the outputs can be independantly swtiched betweenground and the power rail (thus giving the ability to make a motor turn in either direction if connected between 2 output wires. This is what the manual tells you to do. I've been looking at the circuitry in the interface. It links to the BBC Micro User port, which is port B of a 6522 VIA, and uses the 8 data lines, but neither of the handshake lines. The ADCs are a bit of a kludge. They're built from 3 555 timers (well, 1.5 556s, which is the same thing). 2 sections are wired as monotstables with the variable resistors in the model as the timing resistors. Each of thsoe monostables is triggered by a seperate output line (bits 4 and 5) or the user port. The outputs are ORed together, and fed to the reset (== enable) pin of the last timer, wired as an astable. Thuse, when you tigger one of the monostables, you get a pulse train at the output of the astable, the number of pulses in the pulse train depends on the setting of the variable resistor. This pulse train is fed back to pin 6 of the user port, which can be used as the input of one of the counters in the 6522. Needless to say this counter is used to count the pulses, and thus to indicate the setting of the variable resistor. The switch inputs go to a 4014 shift register. 3 lines on the user port provide the load, clock, and data signals for this circuit. The motors, similarly use a 4094 shift register, with the last 2 bits of the user port providing the data and latch signals for this chip (the clock is common to the input and output ciecuits). The outputs of the 4094 go to the TLE4201 motor drivers. There is 20 pin header hidden inside the interface. Most of the pins are not used, the ones that are are connected to the shift register clock, input SR load, output SR latch, the serial input to the input SR and the serial output of the motor SR. Thus it's possible to hang more shift registers off here for more switches or motors. You'd have to re-write the drivere to shift more bits in/out of the SRs before giving the latch signal, etc. -tony From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Jan 5 16:53:36 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:53:36 -0800 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <200601031153380131.11A39F77@10.0.0.252> References: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200601031242.40172.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200601031043080849.11631183@10.0.0.252> <200601031409.49324.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200601031153380131.11A39F77@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 1/3/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Yet, the reverse has turned out to be true--the 68HC11 > seems to be everywhere--and the 6502 has been pretty much relegated to > obscurity after some popularity in the first generation of personal > computers. > Which leads me, in a way, to the conclusion that maybe instruction sets > don't matter all that much in the real world. I've been wondering about this as well. I would have assumed that for microcontrollers that cost would be supreme. Did the 6800 family get cheaper than the 6502 at some point? After all saving a dollar a unit on 100K units pays for a programmer. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Jan 5 16:53:36 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:53:36 -0800 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: <200601031153380131.11A39F77@10.0.0.252> References: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200601031242.40172.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200601031043080849.11631183@10.0.0.252> <200601031409.49324.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200601031153380131.11A39F77@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 1/3/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Yet, the reverse has turned out to be true--the 68HC11 > seems to be everywhere--and the 6502 has been pretty much relegated to > obscurity after some popularity in the first generation of personal > computers. > Which leads me, in a way, to the conclusion that maybe instruction sets > don't matter all that much in the real world. I've been wondering about this as well. I would have assumed that for microcontrollers that cost would be supreme. Did the 6800 family get cheaper than the 6502 at some point? After all saving a dollar a unit on 100K units pays for a programmer. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 5 16:55:51 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:55:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fischertechnik BBC Micro interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060105145241.X84929@shell.lmi.net> > Of course quite how I read a C64 disk (or how you get the files to me) is > another matter... cable a commodore to a PC upload from the commodore to internet/BBS/host cable a commodore drive to a PC use a C128 to read the C64 disk and write an MFM disk Option Board/Catweasel/disk2fdi print out listings From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 5 17:01:05 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:01:05 -0800 Subject: Appropriate tools - was Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601051501050690.1C9BF199@10.0.0.252> On 1/5/2006 at 10:31 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Perhaps I am very old-fashioned, but I've always assumed you don't use or >even touch anybody else's property without there permission. That's just >a matter of common courtesy. If you're old fashioned, I'm even more so. Given all of the pure garbage coming onto the market that's jokingly referred to as "tools", I still believe that tools are one area on which it's just plain foolish to skimp. German-made Wiha has a very nice 365 mm T15 driver. It'll set you back all of $5.50. It's also a good idea not to skimp on shoes. :) Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 5 17:12:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:12:00 -0800 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: References: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200601031242.40172.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200601031043080849.11631183@10.0.0.252> <200601031409.49324.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200601031153380131.11A39F77@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601051512000261.1CA5EE84@10.0.0.252> On 1/5/2006 at 2:53 PM Eric J Korpela wrote: >I've been wondering about this as well. I would have assumed that for >microcontrollers that cost would be supreme. Did the 6800 family get >cheaper than the 6502 at some point? After all saving a dollar a unit >on 100K units pays for a programmer. Maybe it's more the case that the 68HC11 comes in an almost bewildering number of variations--somewhere around 100. Price is somewhere around $1.75-3.00 each in 1000 unit lots. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 5 17:31:52 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 23:31:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Appropriate tools - was Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200601051501050690.1C9BF199@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 5, 6 03:01:05 pm Message-ID: > > If you're old fashioned, I'm even more so. Given all of the pure garbage > coming onto the market that's jokingly referred to as "tools", I still Yes, I've seen such things in shops over here. Needless to say I didn't buy any... > believe that tools are one area on which it's just plain foolish to skimp. Exactly. Firstly, good tools are cheaper in the end becuase they last a lot longer (I don't expect to _ever_ have to replace most of my tools, they will outlive me, and I do use them a lot). Secondly, poor tools can damage the work -- a badly fitting screwdriver or spanenr will mangle the head of the fastener, a poor soldering iron will overheat the PCB and compoennts in some cases, and so on. Putting that sort of damage right takes time that I'd rather spend doing something useful. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 5 17:39:42 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:39:42 -0700 Subject: Appropriate tools - was Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200601051501050690.1C9BF199@10.0.0.252> References: <200601051501050690.1C9BF199@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43BDAE3E.7050404@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > >It's also a good idea not to skimp on shoes. :) > > > So what is the right kind of shoes to wear; and can you still find them? >Cheers, >Chuck > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 5 17:50:35 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:50:35 -0800 Subject: Appropriate tools - was Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43BDAE3E.7050404@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200601051501050690.1C9BF199@10.0.0.252> <43BDAE3E.7050404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200601051550350801.1CC94398@10.0.0.252> On 1/5/2006 at 4:39 PM woodelf wrote: >So what is the right kind of shoes to wear; and can you still find them? Start at your local Red Wing store. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Jan 5 17:55:17 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 18:55:17 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: References: <20060105072044.2834e9fe.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20060105185517.4a18e4bd.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 22:29:48 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > Sure, that probabbly is fine 99.999% of the time. But the one time it > > > doesn't work, and you do mangle the deeply recessed screws is the time > > > you have real problems trying to get them out. > > > > > > > I'm not performing this operation 100,000 times. If I were, I > > would definitely go out and get the long handled T15 Torx > > Screwdriver. > > It just takes the machine you're working on to have overtight screws, or > the flatblade to be a bit too narrow to strip the heads and then you have > problems. > It's worked very well in the four instances when I have successfully used this method. I still haven't bought my long handled T15 Torx driver. I haven't needed one for any other application. In my thinking this puts me well ahead of the odds you lay, and I didn't even think I was taking a gamble. > > > > > > > > It is claimed that 'the bad workman blames his tools'. I have always > > > thoguht that this comes from the fact that the good workman buys good > > > tools, looks after them, and uses the right tool for the job. > > > > I'm not sure who makes that claim, though it is a saying from > > folklore. A true craftsman can make do with what is available, > > and leverage his skills and dexterity, rather than just go out > > and buy more specialized tools. > > A true craftsman (and for that matter a hardwre hacker) can, and will, > make his own tools were necessary, sure. This is a far cry from using the > wrong tools. I don't think you'll find _any_ craftsman who would use a > flatblade screwdriver on a Torx head screw (or on a cross-head screw). > Nor will you find him using a screwdriver as a chisel or a pry-bar. Or > using a hammer to get a part off a shaft when a puller is the right tool > to use. > Please don't assume an understanding of how someone else uses tools, and then spin off citing ludicrous extrapolations of tool abuse. It's getting a little ridiculous. I don't think anybody in this discussion is a serial tool abuser (though I suppose fingers will be pointed.) I maintain that if the tools on hand will do the job, it's perfectly legitimate to use them. Others would warn anybody wanting to open their Macintosh to delay and acquire the Apple sanctioned implements. It's up to anybody with a Mac to decide, it's all in the list archive now. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 5 17:59:08 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:59:08 -0700 Subject: Appropriate tools - was Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <200601051550350801.1CC94398@10.0.0.252> References: <200601051501050690.1C9BF199@10.0.0.252> <43BDAE3E.7050404@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601051550350801.1CC94398@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43BDB2CC.3050300@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 1/5/2006 at 4:39 PM woodelf wrote: > > > >>So what is the right kind of shoes to wear; and can you still find them >> >> >>Start at your local Red Wing store. >> >> Don't have one. What I forgot to add was for use around computers and other racked equipment? From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 5 18:08:41 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:08:41 -0700 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:55:17 -0500. <20060105185517.4a18e4bd.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: In article <20060105185517.4a18e4bd.chenmel at earthlink.net>, Scott Stevens writes: > Please don't assume an understanding of how someone else uses > tools, and then spin off citing ludicrous extrapolations of tool > abuse. It's getting a little ridiculous. [...] IMO, it went past the point of being a little ridiculous about 15-20 messages ago. But hey, beat yourselves over the head with this email club until you're walking around senseless for all I care :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From charlesmorris at direcway.com Thu Jan 5 18:24:52 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:24:52 -0600 Subject: RL02 write faults, found it, now how to fix it? In-Reply-To: <200601051802.k05I2Yea092805@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601051802.k05I2Yea092805@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I spent an interesting day in the shack today. After blowing off the dust, I found that my old 7D01 logic analyzer won't trigger on the word recognizer but Ch. 0 would trigger, so I started hooking it up to the RL02 logic board and R/W boards using the drive error as a post-data trigger and looking backwards from there. Eventually I learned that Write Gate and Write Data are being correctly asserted, and the data bursts continue for 500+ uS (one sector) beginning a couple of uS after the Sector pulse. But approximately 4 to 6 uS after the Write Gate opens, and before the data could even begin (10+ uS), the DL5 DRIVE ERR signal asserts! I worked around the loop from there and found that the *first* thing to go wrong was the Write Data Error Latch ('LS279, E6 on logic board) which was setting its output pin 13 (DL5 WR DATA ERR H). This fatal error signal then latches DL5 DRIVE ERR H via the other "glue" logic and prevents any further action. But the R/W board that generates Write Data Error Pulse was *not* telling the latch to set! There is a 6K8 resistor to +5 and a 0.0056 uf cap to ground as a delay (set only) in the error circuit (a time constant of 38 uS) so to reach a logic 1 (2.0v) would take considerably longer than 6 uS anyway. Further exploration with the logic analyzer on "high" speed (20 ns/tick) shows that on the 'LS279 pin 15 (the latch input, WRITE DATA ERROR PLS L) there is a small (~180-200 ns) low pulse with a 20 ns glitch in the middle. It is NOT evident to the logic analyzer when examining the signal's source on the R/W board, (Write Data Error Detector E3, 7404 pin 8). But it's enough to set the WDE latch all right! Right about then, sparks started flying from the brush area of the spindle motor and the drive faulted on its own and spun down. Holy crap! =:^O I pulled the circuit breaker fast and gently spun the motor and could hear scraping noises. I figured the brushes were shot or something, so I took the two nuts off the through bolts. Of course the end housing wouldn't come off, way too tight a fit, and I didn't want to pull the blower motor. With a bright light I could see a piece of something blue sticking up, so I pulled it out with a pair of fine needlenose pliers. It was the tip of one of my logic analyzer leads that had sneaked into the vent holes unknown to me, and been cut off by the armature turning! I put the nuts back on (of course I dropped the second one inside the motor and had to fish that out too), crossed all my fingers and flipped the breaker. It spun right up and has been working fine since. Whew. Never a dull moment in Murphy's Laws. Anyhow, there is a 330 pf deglitching cap near the input to the 'LS279 but obviously it's not adequate. I need to put a fast scope on the line and see what the edges actually look like. Some resistive termination may be needed. This is on a very short ribbon cable to J6, about 6", inside the drive, and the chassis ground wires to each board are connected. Or maybe the Berg connector on one end is defective in the ground lead. More as I discover it. -Charles From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Jan 5 18:26:30 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 19:26:30 -0500 Subject: Appropriate tools - was Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43BDB2CC.3050300@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200601051501050690.1C9BF199@10.0.0.252> <43BDAE3E.7050404@jetnet.ab.ca> <200601051550350801.1CC94398@10.0.0.252> <43BDB2CC.3050300@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20060105192630.0610fc15.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:59:08 -0700 woodelf wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >On 1/5/2006 at 4:39 PM woodelf wrote: > > > > > > > >>So what is the right kind of shoes to wear; and can you still find them > >> > >> > >>Start at your local Red Wing store. > >> > >> > Don't have one. What I forgot to add was for use around computers and > other racked equipment? > The shoes don't matter. The grounding heel strap does. But then you also need a conductive floor.... From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Jan 5 18:30:39 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 19:30:39 -0500 Subject: Real Old School Programming (was: Re: Where to buy a Selectric?) In-Reply-To: <200512311517120124.02EAEA10@10.0.0.252> References: <20051231143831.L35308@shell.lmi.net> <200512310902.JAA12099@citadel.metropolis.local> <7e34f2e14d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <20051231143831.L35308@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060105192702.04757a98@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >On 12/31/2005 at 2:46 PM Fred Cisin wrote: > > >HARUMPH. > >I slash my zeroes. Always have; always will. > >35/40 years ago, I knew a couple of people who slashed their 'Oh's. > >25 years ago, I inherited books, bookcases, etc. when the last one > >of them died. Is there still anybody alive who does it that way? > >Maybe there are some anarchists hiding out there. Slashing zero was >definitely the IBM way and, AFAIK, the same for all other major >manufacturers (just check some of the programming language manuals on >bitsavers). > >Slashing "oh" was definitely asking for trouble from the keypunch pool. Unless you're Canadian. OK, I'm not actually trying to pick on Canadians, but when I worked for EDS in Auburn Hills, MI back in '89, we had a printout of jokes circulating from the office from Oshawa, Ontario, Canada - dot matrix, and all the ohs were shashed and the zeroes were not. I was already so entrenched by that time (22 years young) that I had difficulty reading it for the first few seconds, wondering who scattered a bunch of zeroes thru a sheet of light-bulb jokes. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From appleto at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 19:16:14 2006 From: appleto at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:16:14 -0500 Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: References: <20060105072044.2834e9fe.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 1/5/06, Tony Duell wrote: > It just takes the machine you're working on to have overtight screws, or > the flatblade to be a bit too narrow to strip the heads and then you have > problems. I have always used a long handled flat head on the screws under the handle, and have never run into a problem: the metal in those screw is harder than the metal most screw drivers are made from. Using the "right tool" for a job involves a lot more than using a tool designed for an exact purpose. It involves knowing when you can use a given tool. If that given tool is a long handled flathead in a torx screw, so be it. Similarly, sometimes tools are not necessary. That would be the case for the case cracker. (Prying is rarely necessary on the first time in, and it is never necessary on the second time in.) From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 5 19:50:19 2006 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:50:19 -0800 Subject: Raritan APSSUN key map In-Reply-To: References: <43BBDC5F.8060406@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <43BDCCDB.9010807@deltasoft.com> Mike Loewen wrote: > > Does anyone here have a list of the key mapping for Sun keys to PS/2 > keys for the APSSUN converter? > Pause/Break + A - STOP Again - F2 Props - F3 Undo - F4 Front - F5 Copy - F6 Open - F7 Paste - F8 Find - F9 Cut - F10 Help - F11 Mute - F12 Compose - * (keypad) Vol + - + (keypad) Vol - - - (keypad) Combo keys are Scroll Lock or Ctrl+Alt. eg. Scroll Lock + F7 = Open. g. -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 5 20:02:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:02:33 -0800 Subject: Appropriate tools - was Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: <43BDAE3E.7050404@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200601051501050690.1C9BF199@10.0.0.252> <43BDAE3E.7050404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200601051802330961.1D4212CC@10.0.0.252> I recall that early on when Torx heads were first making their appearance, some firms stated that a 2.5mm hex driver could also be used in place of a T15 in a pinch. Perhaps this might be better than a flat screwdriver? At least it would multiple points of contact. Cheers, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Jan 5 20:38:03 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 18:38:03 -0800 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs Message-ID: der Mouse wrote: >> No. With reverse engineering you *understand* the design. > I get that by reading the docs, the schematic and using the machine. With real docs (such as schematics) you don't _need_ to reverse-engineer. Reverse engineering, at least as I learned to use the term, refers to the process of deducing that kind of information from the device. der Mouse Real documents are wonderful but rarely available. In my field (hard drives) the schematic is useless. What we really need to understand is the manufacturing process, especially for heads and media. Those are "black magic" processes that defy instant analysis. Worse, they require enormously expensive test equipment and high skill levels. Decapping an IC and stripping off the layers is a major piece of engineering. Measuring the flying height of a GMR head flying closer to the media than the wavelength of visible light can take a small team of engineers and lots of money. And then there is the problem some of you have encountered: how to reverse engineer code when it is embedded with the processor in an IC package that has no external memory access? Reverse engineering to me is: to deduce enough information to duplicate the device, including manufacturing processes. Billy From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 5 21:28:11 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 20:28:11 -0700 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:38:03 -0800. Message-ID: Speaking of vacuum tube logic.... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 5 22:25:15 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 21:25:15 -0700 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher Message-ID: Have any of you really done this? Did you take the enclosure off? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 5 22:29:51 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 21:29:51 -0700 Subject: shipping for monitors Message-ID: OK, I have had terminals shipped to me in the past and they were fine, but I experienced a bit of damage when having a Heath Z-19 terminal shipped to me recently. Fortunately it can be repaired, but I think its just that I came out somewhat lucky (even more lucky would for it to not have been damaged at all). If you were to ship a terminal/monitor, what would be your approach? In the case of the Z-19, I think the root cause is that only 1 of the 4 mounting screws for the tube in the case had a support bracket. This is the only mounting post that didn't shear from the rest of the enclosure. The other 3 posts sheared off at their base to the enclosure. Some superglue should be able to reattach the posts to the enclosure so that the whole thing will be "like new". So this might be something specific to this enclosure design. However, I'm currently looking at a Tektronix 4115 that's in Illinois and I'm in Utah. This is an item that would be "key" for my graphics collection (and I've not seen one offered with any great frequency; a local supplier has them but he charges $1200 minimum for these units as costly replacements for mission critical systems). However, I'm really leary of shipping it that far after my experience with the Z-19. Comments? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From josefcub at gmail.com Thu Jan 5 22:45:39 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 22:45:39 -0600 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9e2403920601052045t64c7ffe9jf96441a4a4960ca4@mail.gmail.com> On 1/5/06, Richard wrote: > Have any of you really done this? In fact, I've done it many times, with various ages of keyboard. > > Did you take the enclosure off? Most of what I've done were membrane keyboards, so I completely disassembled them, peeled them apart, and ran them through. The covered utinsel rack is perfect for holding all the keys in, too... I did once completely dishwash my Apple II Plus (sans PSU), motherboard, keyboard, and case. Just use Jet-Dri or some other form of quick drying agent, to prevent deposits of minerals and other conductive things on your boards... And make sure it dries apart for at least 48 hours, more without direct air blowing on it. Josef PS: It's implied that the II Plus worked when I was done washing it. ;) -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From jrasite at eoni.com Thu Jan 5 22:49:00 2006 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:49:00 -0800 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47929f377877a1eaced2298cd2cc4e4b@eoni.com> Yes and yes. No detergent though. Air dry for a week or so. Jim On Jan 5, 2006, at 8:25 PM, Richard wrote: > Have any of you really done this? > > Did you take the enclosure off? From fernande at internet1.net Thu Jan 5 23:22:15 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 00:22:15 -0500 Subject: shipping for monitors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43BDFE87.3050201@internet1.net> Richard wrote: > In the case of the Z-19, I think the root cause is that only 1 of the > 4 mounting screws for the tube in the case had a support bracket. > This is the only mounting post that didn't shear from the rest of the > enclosure. The other 3 posts sheared off at their base to the > enclosure. Some superglue should be able to reattach the posts to the > enclosure so that the whole thing will be "like new". So this might > be something specific to this enclosure design. I wouldn't use superglue. Try JB Weld, or some other 2 part epoxy, if you can't find the JB Weld. I successfully repaired one of the mounting posts for the power supply of an IBM PS/2 Model 80 using JB Weld. > > However, I'm currently looking at a Tektronix 4115 that's in Illinois > and I'm in Utah. This is an item that would be "key" for my graphics > collection (and I've not seen one offered with any great frequency; a > local supplier has them but he charges $1200 minimum for these units > as costly replacements for mission critical systems). However, I'm > really leary of shipping it that far after my experience with the > Z-19. Well, if the tube is only mounted on it's face then the mass of the tube and gravity are creating a torque on the mounting posts. I have no idea what a Textronix 4115 looks like, but could it be packed tube down? That way the force due to gravity would be directly in line with the mounts and wouldn't create a torque that would break them. Of course all this is pointless if the packer can't pack worth beans. Even further, if the box ended up being tall, it may get tipped over in shipping therefore defeating the face down packing arrangement. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From jrice54 at blackcube.org Fri Jan 6 00:09:04 2006 From: jrice54 at blackcube.org (James Rice) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 00:09:04 -0600 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <47929f377877a1eaced2298cd2cc4e4b@eoni.com> References: <47929f377877a1eaced2298cd2cc4e4b@eoni.com> Message-ID: <43BE0980.5030104@blackcube.org> Jim Arnott wrote: > Yes and yes. No detergent though. Air dry for a week or so. > > Jim > > > On Jan 5, 2006, at 8:25 PM, Richard wrote: > >> Have any of you really done this? >> >> Did you take the enclosure off? > > > I worked for several years in a food plant that used cheap peecee clones as plant floor MMI terminals. Almost every week, several keyboards would get soaked with marbase oil or partially votated margarine. We would take a sanitation hose (50% water and 50% live steam) and wash out the keyboards. Then we would place them in the hot oil storagre room (heated to 165 degrees F at eye level) for a few hours to dry. Most of them would survive 5-6 cleaning cycles before the keys would start sticking. -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jan 6 00:12:32 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 00:12:32 -0600 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <9e2403920601052045t64c7ffe9jf96441a4a4960ca4@mail.gmail.com> References: <9e2403920601052045t64c7ffe9jf96441a4a4960ca4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43BE0A50.8060602@oldskool.org> Josef Chessor wrote: > I did once completely dishwash my Apple II Plus (sans PSU), > motherboard, keyboard, and case. Just use Jet-Dri or some other form > of quick drying agent, to prevent deposits of minerals and other > conductive things on your boards... And make sure it dries apart for > at least 48 hours, more without direct air blowing on it. You've got to be joking. The motherboard? What temperature did you do this at? Heated dry? Detergent? You've got to be kidding me. > PS: It's implied that the II Plus worked when I was done washing it. ;) Yeah, well, maybe I'll try it on a spare common-as-dirt 486/66 but no way on my classic hardware :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 6 00:17:27 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 22:17:27 -0800 Subject: shipping for monitors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601052217270509.1E2B6DF1@10.0.0.252> Disclaimer: I don't ship monitors (well, maybe one or two). Claim: I do ship a lot of very delicate musical instruments, like tubas. What I've learned: Double-walled cardboard is a must. If you're shipping by truck and the size of the item warrants it, it's even better is to build a crate (from wood) and strap it to a pallet. Bracing--the object must not be able to shift within its box. If an object can shift, it will develop sufficient momentum to cause damage. Styrofoam "peanuts" do not prevent shifting. It's far better to purchase some sheet styrofoam insulation from a home improvement store and cut it to fit around the object, within the box. Peanuts can be used to fill voids, but your customer will love you if you first put them in a bag, so they don't migrate all over the place. If you have a particularly fragile surface, such as the bell of a tuba or the faceplate of a monitor, invest in a cheap toy beach ball. Partially inflate it and use it as a shock absorber--it will distribute forces far better than anything else. If anything can get loose (access panels, cords, etc), tape them down. If it's a large package and you have access to passenger rail service, consider Amtrak Express. Their rates and service can sometimes beat most of the other common carriers--and your package will ride in a baggage car, not be tossed off some conveyor belt used to load a plane. --- Super glue may not be the best answer to reattaching those bosses. Try a few drops of MEK or methyene chloride--the action on most styrene or acrylic plastics will be that of a solvent. The cured join will be nearly as strong as the surrounding material. Do NOT do this with transparent plastics--it will fog them. For whatever it's worth. Cheers, Chuck From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 00:33:17 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 01:33:17 -0500 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <43BE0A50.8060602@oldskool.org> References: <9e2403920601052045t64c7ffe9jf96441a4a4960ca4@mail.gmail.com> <43BE0A50.8060602@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 1/6/06, Jim Leonard wrote: > Josef Chessor wrote: > > I did once completely dishwash my Apple II Plus (sans PSU), > > motherboard, keyboard, and case. Just use Jet-Dri or some other form > > of quick drying agent, to prevent deposits of minerals and other > > conductive things on your boards... And make sure it dries apart for > > at least 48 hours, more without direct air blowing on it. > > You've got to be joking. The motherboard? What temperature did you do > this at? Heated dry? Detergent? You've got to be kidding me. I have washed motherboards and cards (most are 386s or 486s) for numerous times. No heated dry though. Just use a fan to blow air at it overnight. vax, 9000 From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Fri Jan 6 00:56:15 2006 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 00:56:15 -0600 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <43BE0A50.8060602@oldskool.org> References: <9e2403920601052045t64c7ffe9jf96441a4a4960ca4@mail.gmail.com> <43BE0A50.8060602@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43BE148F.2060606@vzavenue.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Josef Chessor wrote: > >> I did once completely dishwash my Apple II Plus (sans PSU), >> motherboard, keyboard, and case. Just use Jet-Dri or some other form >> of quick drying agent, to prevent deposits of minerals and other >> conductive things on your boards... And make sure it dries apart for >> at least 48 hours, more without direct air blowing on it. > > > You've got to be joking. The motherboard? What temperature did you > do this at? Heated dry? Detergent? You've got to be kidding me. > >> PS: It's implied that the II Plus worked when I was done washing it. ;) > > > Yeah, well, maybe I'll try it on a spare common-as-dirt 486/66 but no > way on my classic hardware :-) It a well known trick among compact Mac collectors to wash the logic board of a compact Mac when the sound gets flaky. The caps tend to leak a little and by running the logic (motherboard) through the dishwasher, the conductive residue will wash off and the board will function perfectly for a year or so. Eventually the caps need to be replaced but you can get by with three or four dishwasher runs before replacing the leaking caps. -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From fernande at internet1.net Fri Jan 6 00:57:11 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 01:57:11 -0500 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: References: <9e2403920601052045t64c7ffe9jf96441a4a4960ca4@mail.gmail.com> <43BE0A50.8060602@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43BE14C6.5080102@internet1.net> 9000 VAX wrote: > I have washed motherboards and cards (most are 386s or 486s) for > numerous times. No heated dry though. Just use a fan to blow air at it > overnight. > > vax, 9000 Same here, in fact when I had a dishwasher it was standard procedure. Now I have to do it by hand! I normally scrub with a tooth brush. I even use soap or some type of spray cleaner like Fantastic. They get rinsed with hotish water. If the board has a lot of places to trap water, I'll blow it off with my compressor, or R134a (canned air). Then it gets stood up on an edge in front of a box fan, and I'll rotate it every so often. Sometimes I'll leave it over night, but really a few hours is all it takes. Sometimes I'll put stuff in the oven. I've even done a PC power supply or two this way, after I've taken it out of it's chassis. I'll get just about anything wet, that I feel I can get dry effectively. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jan 6 01:07:13 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 02:07:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601060708.CAA18978@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Reverse engineering to me is: to deduce enough information to > duplicate the device, including manufacturing processes. Pretty close, though I'd say that it's also fair to use it to refer to learning enough to duplicate only some aspects of the device. However, none of this says that you must then proceed to actually construct such a duplicate (or partial duplicate), which is really what I was taking exception to in the original definition. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Jan 6 01:32:54 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 08:32:54 +0100 Subject: RL02 write faults, found it, now how to fix it? Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF25E5@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Thanks for sharing your day in the shack with us, Charles. I am glad to read that I am not the only one who can cut a wire without any intention of wanting to do that :-) Due to other obligations, I have not been able to swap the RL11 controller ... Ahh well, it's almost weekend! - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Charles > Sent: vrijdag 6 januari 2006 1:25 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: RL02 write faults, found it, now how to fix it? > > I spent an interesting day in the shack today. After blowing > off the dust, I found that my old 7D01 logic analyzer won't > trigger on the word recognizer but Ch. 0 would trigger, so I > started hooking it up to the RL02 logic board and R/W boards > using the drive error as a post-data trigger and looking > backwards from there. > > Eventually I learned that Write Gate and Write Data are being > correctly asserted, and the data bursts continue for 500+ uS (one > sector) beginning a couple of uS after the Sector pulse. But > approximately 4 to 6 uS after the Write Gate opens, and > before the data could even begin (10+ uS), the DL5 DRIVE ERR > signal asserts! > I worked around the loop from there and found that the > *first* thing to go wrong was the Write Data Error Latch > ('LS279, E6 on logic board) which was setting its output pin > 13 (DL5 WR DATA ERR H). This fatal error signal then latches > DL5 DRIVE ERR H via the other "glue" logic and prevents any > further action. > > But the R/W board that generates Write Data Error Pulse was > *not* telling the latch to set! There is a 6K8 resistor to +5 and a > 0.0056 uf cap to ground as a delay (set only) in the error > circuit (a time constant of 38 uS) so to reach a logic 1 > (2.0v) would take considerably longer than 6 uS anyway. > > Further exploration with the logic analyzer on "high" speed (20 > ns/tick) shows that on the 'LS279 pin 15 (the latch input, > WRITE DATA ERROR PLS L) there is a small (~180-200 ns) low > pulse with a 20 ns glitch in the middle. It is NOT evident to > the logic analyzer when examining the signal's source on the > R/W board, (Write Data Error Detector E3, 7404 pin 8). But > it's enough to set the WDE latch all right! > > Right about then, sparks started flying from the brush area > of the spindle motor and the drive faulted on its own and spun down. > Holy crap! =:^O > > I pulled the circuit breaker fast and gently spun the motor > and could hear scraping noises. I figured the brushes were > shot or something, so I took the two nuts off the through > bolts. Of course the end housing wouldn't come off, way too > tight a fit, and I didn't want to pull the blower motor. With > a bright light I could see a piece of something blue sticking > up, so I pulled it out with a pair of fine needlenose pliers. > It was the tip of one of my logic analyzer leads that had > sneaked into the vent holes unknown to me, and been cut off > by the armature turning! I put the nuts back on (of course I > dropped the second one inside the motor and had to fish that > out too), crossed all my fingers and flipped the breaker. It > spun right up and has been working fine since. Whew. > Never a dull moment in Murphy's Laws. > > Anyhow, there is a 330 pf deglitching cap near the input to the > 'LS279 but obviously it's not adequate. I need to put a fast > scope on the line and see what the edges actually look like. > Some resistive termination may be needed. This is on a very > short ribbon cable to J6, about 6", inside the drive, and the > chassis ground wires to each board are connected. Or maybe > the Berg connector on one end is defective in the ground > lead. More as I discover it. > > -Charles This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From asholz at topinform.de Fri Jan 6 04:58:52 2006 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 11:58:52 +0100 Subject: TI-Explorer In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF25E5@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF25E5@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <43BE4D6C.3070304@topinform.de> Hello all, some TI-Explorers (former Swissair) might be available to interested collectors, but be aware, you'll have to deal with international shipment and handling costs. If you are interested, contact me off-list please. Andreas From James at jdfogg.com Fri Jan 6 08:26:13 2006 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 09:26:13 -0500 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B3A@sbs.jdfogg.com> > > I have washed motherboards and cards (most are 386s or 486s) for > > numerous times. No heated dry though. Just use a fan to > blow air at it > > overnight. In printed circuit board production everything gets "dishwashed" after wave soldering to remove flux, masks and junk. It is then baked in an air oven. It's been 20 years since I've been around PC board production, but as I recall it was a very hot water/acid/detergent wash. So, it's nothing that your components haven't seen before. Some things to remember - The cleaner the water the better so maybe put a charcoal filter on the washer line, City water has some chlorine and has a tiny risk of bleaching, All automatic dishwasher detergents have lots of chlorine and might bleach (great for discolored plastics), Powdered automatic dish detergent has silicone dioxide (sand) and will scour your boards, Because of the above 2 items you might want to use "hand" dishwashing detergent, but not much since it will foam, Since isopropanol will aggressively bond with water molecules I like to chase the water off with an isopropanol rinse (pure, if you can get it, or 90% sold in drug stores), Follow with some kind of gentle bake (direct sun on a warm day, hair dryer, oven, fans). The isopropanol rinse is good for drying since alcohols evaporate easily. Iso is used by "re-work" technicians to remove flux on boards that are touched up by hand, so iso is generally safe, but might remove ink printing on labels and might attack the label glue. From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jan 6 09:03:31 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 10:03:31 -0500 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 05 Jan 2006 21:25:15 MST." Message-ID: <200601061503.k06F3WKJ023939@mwave.heeltoe.com> Richard wrote: >Have any of you really done this? > >Did you take the enclosure off? I did it once. I didn't remove anything and put it in the top rack keys down. It did a marvelous job of cleaning everything but I had to open up the unit afterwards and dry it out as there was a lot of water inside. I'd do it again for any common pc keyboard. The keyboard worked find afterward and I'm still using it. -brad From emu at ecubics.com Fri Jan 6 10:01:36 2006 From: emu at ecubics.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 09:01:36 -0700 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <43BE148F.2060606@vzavenue.net> References: <9e2403920601052045t64c7ffe9jf96441a4a4960ca4@mail.gmail.com> <43BE0A50.8060602@oldskool.org> <43BE148F.2060606@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <43BE9460.7050409@ecubics.com> James Rice wrote: > It a well known trick among compact Mac collectors to wash the logic > board of a compact Mac when the sound gets flaky. The caps tend to leak > a little and by running the logic (motherboard) through the dishwasher, > the conductive residue will wash off and the board will function > perfectly for a year or so. Now I finally understand, what "clean sound" means ;-) From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Fri Jan 6 10:20:37 2006 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 17:20:37 +0100 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - was 1802 problems In-Reply-To: References: <200601021800.k02I07On039030@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200601031242.40172.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200601031043080849.11631183@10.0.0.252> <200601031409.49324.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200601031153380131.11A39F77@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43BE98D5.9000207@ais.fraunhofer.de> Eric J Korpela wrote: >On 1/3/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >>Yet, the reverse has turned out to be true--the 68HC11 >>seems to be everywhere--and the 6502 has been pretty much relegated to >>obscurity after some popularity in the first generation of personal >>computers. >> >> > > > >>Which leads me, in a way, to the conclusion that maybe instruction sets >>don't matter all that much in the real world. >> >> > >I've been wondering about this as well. I would have assumed that for >microcontrollers that cost would be supreme. Did the 6800 family get >cheaper than the 6502 at some point? After all saving a dollar a unit >on 100K units pays for a programmer. > > Instruction set does no longer matter since microcontrollers come with flash ROMs of 1MB size or larger, and are programmed in C or even BASIC (with a builtin interpreter or a cross compiler). I liked the PDP-11 instruction set (as well as 6809/68000 sets) very much, but they were made mainly for assembler freaks - no worrying about where to put data or addresses - basically every register worked with every instruction type or address mode. In contrast, instruction sets for processors like 8080/Z80/8086, where specialized registers exist (like HL, or CX, or SI/DI) and special instructions that don't work only under specific data layout conditions. These times are gone - assembler is irrelevant for larger projects, and controller have become large enough to allow wasting space and tolerate inefficient code. Some controllers, including the rather lousy 8051 series, still persist, but mainly because "system designers" have used and understood them for 20 years now and it is too expensive to train them another horse. Holger From fernande at internet1.net Fri Jan 6 11:01:35 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:01:35 -0500 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B3A@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B3A@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <43BEA26F.7040102@internet1.net> James Fogg wrote: > All automatic dishwasher detergents have lots of chlorine and might > bleach (great for discolored plastics), Dishwasher detergent will oxidize metal brackets, screws, etc. so if your doing boards and metal chassis parts skip any dishwasher detergent, unless maybe it's the tiniest amount. > > Powdered automatic dish detergent has silicone dioxide (sand) and will > scour your boards, > > Because of the above 2 items you might want to use "hand" dishwashing > detergent, but not much since it will foam, Haha, tried that once! I had a mess on the floor to clean up :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 11:21:29 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:21:29 -0500 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <43BEA26F.7040102@internet1.net> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B3A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <43BEA26F.7040102@internet1.net> Message-ID: <43BEA719.4090601@gmail.com> C Fernandez wrote: >> All automatic dishwasher detergents have lots of chlorine and might >> bleach (great for discolored plastics), > > Dishwasher detergent will oxidize metal brackets, screws, etc. so if > your doing boards and metal chassis parts skip any dishwasher detergent, > unless maybe it's the tiniest amount. I've dishwashered my keyboards for a number of years. I find that Alconox works best. It's not the cheapest stuff in the world, but it doesn't hurt much of anything. Peace... Sridhar From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jan 6 11:49:15 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 09:49:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher Message-ID: <200601061749.JAA07156@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Richard" > >Have any of you really done this? > >Did you take the enclosure off? > Hi This truly depends on the type of keyboard. The one I'm typing on right now would be destroyed by doing such without complete disassembly. Dwight From charlesmorris at direcway.com Fri Jan 6 12:03:38 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:03:38 -0600 Subject: RL02 write faults, fixed it! Another cable mistake In-Reply-To: <200601061510.k06FAKGp005143@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601061510.k06FAKGp005143@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 09:10:37 -0600 (CST), you wrote: Re: my earlier finding, I think I was mistaken. The small glitches arise because the slow risetime of the RC delay (6K8, .0056 uf) is driving a 7404 that does not have a Schmitt trigger input. Guess DEC figured it didn't matter since the first one would set the write error latch anyway. Playing with terminating resistors made little difference so I removed them. Now it turns out that the write data is indeed not getting through to the R/W board (at least today, I'm sure it was yesterday). Sure enough E65 pin 4 (the output of the write data line receiver) was not moving even though pins 1/2 (the differential data inputs) were showing data, and pin 5 (enable) was going high for 5-6 uS until the error latch set so there should have been that short a burst of transitions on the WRITE DATA PLS L line. A DVM showed a short to ground, or nearly so, on that line. I started disconnecting things and the short went away, but then returned. With the ribbon cable from the controller disconnected at the logic board the short did not recur despite moving all the connectors and flexing the board. You may already have guessed it - "operator error" cable problems again, %^&* it :P The problem (as I discovered previously on the RL8E controller, and should have remembered) with using IDC header connectors instead of the Bergs is that the bare ends were protruding ever so slightly beyond the connector body. And although I cut it flush with a fine pair of cutters, there was just enough to (sometimes) touch a via right under the header that had a little extra solder plating "bump"... one strip of Scotch "33" heavy electrical tape later and no more write faults. The XXDP pack continues to pass all read tests but I don't want to take a chance writing to it. The other pack did initialize, 20,000+ free blocks. After about 25 minutes of exercising a soft read error occurred, then another (1 word of a sector) at 31 minutes. I've just written the "worst case data pattern" test from ZRLMB1 diagnostic and there were one or two soft errors and an "XFER" error. Probably the next move is to make a "Field Bad Sector File" for that pack. Anyway - let this be a warning to those of you who want to make your own cables for RL drives. It looks easy since they are 40 pin headers inside the drive and from the back of the controller - but 1) the pattern is reversed and 2) be very careful to keep the bare cable end slightly recessed into the connector body. However, I now know much more about RL drives than I care to, and can fix the logic if it ever really does fail :) -Charles From charlesmorris at direcway.com Fri Jan 6 12:34:30 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:34:30 -0600 Subject: What do I call my PDP-11? Message-ID: <2odtr1p8o4skl96n4li58eu81jtr3ic0mm@4ax.com> What is the proper name for my PDP11 system about which you have read so much lately? (It's in a PDP11-03/L chassis, H9276 backplane, KDF11-BA CPU). Should I refer to my system (shorthand) as an "LSI-11", an "11-03", or something else (besides "that pile of junk parts :) ? thanks Charles From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 12:45:18 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 13:45:18 -0500 Subject: What do I call my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <2odtr1p8o4skl96n4li58eu81jtr3ic0mm@4ax.com> References: <2odtr1p8o4skl96n4li58eu81jtr3ic0mm@4ax.com> Message-ID: <43BEBABE.70602@gmail.com> Charles wrote: > What is the proper name for my PDP11 system about which you have > read so much lately? (It's in a PDP11-03/L chassis, H9276 > backplane, KDF11-BA CPU). > > Should I refer to my system (shorthand) as an "LSI-11", an > "11-03", or something else (besides "that pile of junk parts :) > ? Call it Steve. Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jan 6 12:47:35 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 13:47:35 -0500 Subject: What do I call my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <2odtr1p8o4skl96n4li58eu81jtr3ic0mm@4ax.com> References: <2odtr1p8o4skl96n4li58eu81jtr3ic0mm@4ax.com> Message-ID: <200601061347.35734.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 06 January 2006 13:34, Charles wrote: > What is the proper name for my PDP11 system about which you have > read so much lately? (It's in a PDP11-03/L chassis, H9276 > backplane, KDF11-BA CPU). > > Should I refer to my system (shorthand) as an "LSI-11", an > "11-03", or something else (besides "that pile of junk parts :) If it's got an KDF11-BA CPU, then it's an PDP-11/23+ . Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jan 6 13:00:24 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:00:24 -0700 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B3A@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B3A@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <43BEBE48.504@jetnet.ab.ca> James Fogg wrote: > >City water has some chlorine and has a tiny risk of bleaching, > >All automatic dishwasher detergents have lots of chlorine and might >bleach (great for discolored plastics), > > > I read some where that chlorine kills electrolitic caps DEAD if it ever gets inside. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 6 13:15:16 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 11:15:16 -0800 Subject: What do I call my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <200601061347.35734.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <2odtr1p8o4skl96n4li58eu81jtr3ic0mm@4ax.com> <200601061347.35734.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: At 1:47 PM -0500 1/6/06, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >On Friday 06 January 2006 13:34, Charles wrote: >> What is the proper name for my PDP11 system about which you have >> read so much lately? (It's in a PDP11-03/L chassis, H9276 >> backplane, KDF11-BA CPU). >> >> Should I refer to my system (shorthand) as an "LSI-11", an >> "11-03", or something else (besides "that pile of junk parts :) > >If it's got an KDF11-BA CPU, then it's an PDP-11/23+ . If it's a /23+ in a /03 chassis, I say call it Frankenstein :^) At least I take it the backplane has been upgraded to handle the CPU? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Fri Jan 6 13:59:30 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 20:59:30 +0100 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs In-Reply-To: <200601050026.50303.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <20060105025253.CC0F5BA480E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200601041908430698.18584A30@10.0.0.252> <200601050026.50303.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <1136577570.11816.65.camel@fortran.babel> On Thu, 2006-01-05 at 00:26 -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 04 January 2006 10:08 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 1/4/2006 at 9:52 PM shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > > >Cryotron logic! > > Microwave logic? > Getting positively photonic, are we? > Neutrino logic? One thing I've always wanted to build is a binary marble CPU. Of course it would need some system of getting the marbles back upwards, some electrical system or something. But I do believe it would make for an awesome sight. -toresbe :) From RLAAG at PACBELL.NET Fri Jan 6 14:41:49 2006 From: RLAAG at PACBELL.NET (BOB LAAG) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:41:49 -0800 Subject: basic language startrek program Message-ID: <43BED60D.3010607@PACBELL.NET> Looking for info or the origin of a paper tape program in basic that plays a startrek game with quadrants, stars, klingons, etc... I got it back in the 70's from some military guys and it ran on my old computer mainframe stuff... Just wondering if anyone recognizes this or wants the file??? From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Jan 6 14:42:56 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:42:56 +0100 Subject: RL02 write faults, fixed it! Another cable mistake Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2288@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > [snip - very instructive part] > > However, I now know much more about RL drives than I care to, and > can fix the logic if it ever really does fail :) > > -Charles Yes, working your way through the schematics, actually measuring the signals, makes you "learn" how something works - in detail! I know a little more about the M7859 11/34 console than I did, say 2 months ago ... - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Jan 6 14:48:35 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:48:35 +0100 Subject: basic language startrek program Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2289@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> check out http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/startrek/ and ask Pete. He might be interested :-) BTW, can you tell more about the mainframe (type, manufacturer, where, etc.)? - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens BOB LAAG Verzonden: vr 06-01-2006 21:41 Aan: CCTECH Onderwerp: basic language startrek program Looking for info or the origin of a paper tape program in basic that plays a startrek game with quadrants, stars, klingons, etc... I got it back in the 70's from some military guys and it ran on my old computer mainframe stuff... Just wondering if anyone recognizes this or wants the file??? This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 6 14:53:19 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 13:53:19 -0700 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, fixed it! Another cable mistake) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 06 Jan 2006 21:42:56 +0100. <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2288@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: In article <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2288 at OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net>, "Gooijen, Henk" writes: > Yes, working your way through the schematics, actually measuring the > signals, makes you "learn" how something works - in detail! > I know a little more about the M7859 11/34 console than I did, say > 2 months ago ... So what would y'all recommend for logic analyzer/oscilloscope type tools that are useful for vintage computing (i.e. their max bandwidth/speed can be slower than needed for current tech) that are also affordable? I know Tektronix and HP are major manufacturers in this area, but I would know what to get. *Lots* of these items go up for auction via government liquidation at the local Hill AFB, so if I know what I'm looking for I should be able to eventually get something by low-bidding. Suggestions? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 6 14:47:09 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 13:47:09 -0700 Subject: basic language startrek program In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:41:49 -0800. <43BED60D.3010607@PACBELL.NET> Message-ID: In article <43BED60D.3010607 at PACBELL.NET>, BOB LAAG writes: > Looking for info or the origin of a paper tape program in basic that > plays a startrek game with quadrants, stars, klingons, etc... I got it > back in the 70's from some military guys and it ran on my old computer > mainframe stuff... Just wondering if anyone recognizes this or wants > the file??? This sounds very much like the star trek game that was on the HP3000 I used at the University of Delaware circa 1978/1979. Did it print out your quadrant map with a little ASCII graphic? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Jan 6 15:08:12 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 22:08:12 +0100 Subject: basic language startrek program Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE228A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> That version (quadrant map in ASCII) was very common in all the old versions. I must even have such a versin that runs on a 6800, but I can not remember if it was written in native 6800 or BASIC, running on SWTPC 6800 BASIC. - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Richard Verzonden: vr 06-01-2006 21:47 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: basic language startrek program In article <43BED60D.3010607 at PACBELL.NET>, BOB LAAG writes: > Looking for info or the origin of a paper tape program in basic that > plays a startrek game with quadrants, stars, klingons, etc... I got it > back in the 70's from some military guys and it ran on my old computer > mainframe stuff... Just wondering if anyone recognizes this or wants > the file??? This sounds very much like the star trek game that was on the HP3000 I used at the University of Delaware circa 1978/1979. Did it print out your quadrant map with a little ASCII graphic? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Jan 6 15:19:24 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 22:19:24 +0100 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, fixed it! Another cable mistake) Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE228B@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> There was a fair discussion just a few months ago about this topic. If you'd ask me, remember that the old PDP-11 clock signals are below 20 MHz, so you don't need a 1 GHz sampling 'scope :-) But a decent 50-60 MHz dual-trace is not bad. For these tools, they work best if the "man using the tool" knows what he (she, if it's Allison) is doing, and knows the *limitations*, and interprets the signals or data (try to understand what (s)he sees). For logic analyzers, check out for example eBay, but make sure that it is complete with the correct wires and pods! Don't go for a LA without the pods. Useless. And buying the pods later, which is sometimes possible, is costly in the end. Just my thoughts, no intention to start a thread on this topic. Perhaps something for the ClassicComp Knowledge Base? ( http://www.classiccmp.org/kb/ ) - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Richard Verzonden: vr 06-01-2006 21:53 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults,fixed it! Another cable mistake) In article <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2288 at OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net>, "Gooijen, Henk" writes: > Yes, working your way through the schematics, actually measuring the > signals, makes you "learn" how something works - in detail! > I know a little more about the M7859 11/34 console than I did, say > 2 months ago ... So what would y'all recommend for logic analyzer/oscilloscope type tools that are useful for vintage computing (i.e. their max bandwidth/speed can be slower than needed for current tech) that are also affordable? I know Tektronix and HP are major manufacturers in this area, but I would know what to get. *Lots* of these items go up for auction via government liquidation at the local Hill AFB, so if I know what I'm looking for I should be able to eventually get something by low-bidding. Suggestions? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 6 14:47:09 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 13:47:09 -0700 Subject: basic language startrek program In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:41:49 -0800. <43BED60D.3010607@PACBELL.NET> Message-ID: In article <43BED60D.3010607 at PACBELL.NET>, BOB LAAG writes: > Looking for info or the origin of a paper tape program in basic that > plays a startrek game with quadrants, stars, klingons, etc... I got it > back in the 70's from some military guys and it ran on my old computer > mainframe stuff... Just wondering if anyone recognizes this or wants > the file??? This sounds very much like the star trek game that was on the HP3000 I used at the University of Delaware circa 1978/1979. Did it print out your quadrant map with a little ASCII graphic? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Jan 6 15:31:52 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 13:31:52 -0800 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - Message-ID: Holger Veit wrote: These times are gone - assembler is irrelevant for larger projects, and controller have become large enough to allow wasting space and tolerate inefficient code. Some controllers, including the rather lousy 8051 series, still persist, but mainly because "system designers" have used and understood them for 20 years now and it is too expensive to train them another horse. Holger -------------------------------- I have to quibble a bit about this. "System Designers" have to design to cost goals, as well as schedules. Most of them that I have worked with would love to change and have the challenge of a new processor. Training is not a factor. It's the pointy hair managers that want the cheapest processor they can get. And using an old war horse means not having to buy new development tools, SDKs, etc. Plus there is a huge pool of existing applications and coding to draw on. Moving to a new processor can add 18 months extra on a typical program. That's a price few companies can afford. And, of course, the leverage of buying bigger quantities of the old device can lead to sizeable cost reductions. So old core processors tend become embedded (pun intended) within companies. It takes a significant new bauble to break through. The last major change I saw in embedded processors was the ARM chip sets. They were slow to get accepted but now are everywhere. Probably another 10-15 years of life there. And of course the PIC devices are so cheap that they HAD to be utilized. I don't see anything out there now that would be so superior as to be worth the cost of change. Billy From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jan 6 15:41:47 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 16:41:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601062159.QAA24795@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > These times are gone - assembler is irrelevant for larger projects, I'm not sure, at least not unless you restrict which kinds of projects you're talking about. I recently finished playing one of the Ratchet & Clank games for the PlayStation2, and watched the embedded making-of video. According to that, their game engine is millions of lines of assembly. (Unless I misunderstood, of course - I don't have it at ready hand to rewatch - but it seems unlikely.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 6 16:00:23 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 14:00:23 -0800 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, fixed it! Another cable mistake) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:53 PM -0700 1/6/06, Richard wrote: >So what would y'all recommend for logic analyzer/oscilloscope type >tools that are useful for vintage computing (i.e. their max >bandwidth/speed can be slower than needed for current tech) that are >also affordable? > >I know Tektronix and HP are major manufacturers in this area, but I >would know what to get. *Lots* of these items go up for auction via >government liquidation at the local Hill AFB, so if I know what I'm >looking for I should be able to eventually get something by low-bidding. > >Suggestions? I rather like my Tektronix TDS-220 Oscilloscope, small and very easy to use. I also had a Tek 465B, but gave it away as it wasn't working right, and I needed the space. Of the two, the TDS-220 was definitely nicer. IIRC, it was also Tek's recommended replacement for a 465B. I purchased the 465B used and cheap, I got what I paid for, a scope that didn't work right :^( As a result, I purchased the TDS-220 new, of course it helped that at the time I could afford it. In any case, I always recommend Tek scopes :^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From James at jdfogg.com Fri Jan 6 16:08:39 2006 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 17:08:39 -0500 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B40@sbs.jdfogg.com> ---- There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of woodelf > Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 2:00 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher > > James Fogg wrote: > > > > >City water has some chlorine and has a tiny risk of bleaching, > > > >All automatic dishwasher detergents have lots of chlorine and might > >bleach (great for discolored plastics), > > > > > > > I read some where that chlorine kills electrolitic caps DEAD > if it ever gets inside. *anything* getting into an electrolitic would kill it, or at least change its specifications in an unwelcomed way. I wouldn't expect there to be any more risk than with water. But there are other issues with corrosion, so chlorine is a bad thing. From James at jdfogg.com Fri Jan 6 16:10:11 2006 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 17:10:11 -0500 Subject: What do I call my PDP-11? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B41@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Should I refer to my system (shorthand) as an "LSI-11", an > "11-03", or something else (besides "that pile of junk parts :) ? George. "I will love him and pet him and call him George" - from some Warner Bros. cartoon. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 6 16:10:04 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 15:10:04 -0700 Subject: basic language startrek program In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 06 Jan 2006 21:48:35 +0100. <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2289@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: In article <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2289 at OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net>, "Gooijen, Henk" writes: > check out http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/startrek/ That was most definately the one that I used: "The "standard" was originally written in BASIC for a Sigma 7, then rewritten in Hewlett Packard BASIC, by Mike Mayfield in 1972. It was included in the HP library early in 1973. Most versions are BASIC or FORTRAN adaptations of this, which was based on an 8 x 8 galactic grid." -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Jan 6 13:14:42 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 19:14:42 +0000 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, fixed it! Another cable mistake) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060106232129.PEZN15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > I rather like my Tektronix TDS-220 Oscilloscope, small and very easy > to use. I also had a Tek 465B, but gave it away as it wasn't working > right, and I needed the space. Of the two, the TDS-220 was > definitely nicer. IIRC, it was also Tek's recommended replacement > for a 465B. I purchased the 465B used and cheap, I got what I paid > for, a scope that didn't work right :^( As a result, I purchased the > TDS-220 new, of course it helped that at the time I could afford it. > > In any case, I always recommend Tek scopes :^) I second the motion - I have the TDS-210 (60Mhz version, otherwise the same) and I love it. It's not "super high-end/fancy", but it has all the basics as well as some decent measurement modes/displays and other features. Samples up to 1GS which gives decent resolution even of fairly quick signals. Btw, if you are not familier with these, they are relatively small LCD scopes, I found an aluminum "briefcase" style toobox at walmart for $15 which is exactly the right size to store the scope (with sufficent padding all around) as well as multimeter, tools and other goodies - Couldn't have had a custom made case any better - I take this "everywhere". A couple of other scopes which are often on my bench. - Gould OS-4000 An early DSO, seems quite common around here, and can be had for next to nothing (I got mine for free, but I did have to fix it). Only 10Mhz so not good for high speed stuff, but its simple and easy to use, and has a really nice "roll" mode which makes it easy to put the trigger point at 1/4. 1/2 or 3/4 points on the screen, and it is a "real" digital storage scope so you can zoom in on the trace after it's captured - this was my #1 scope before the TDS. - Tektronix 7623A Big honkin 4-channel 100Mhz analog storage scope. Think I paid 300 for it many years ago, but I would expect them to be just about free now as well. Great analog scope, nice crisp traces, and when I really need 3 or 4 channels, it's worth it weight ... Also have some differential amplifiers and other gadgets which plug into it (It's a mainframe scope). But it hasn't seen near as much use since the I got the TDS either. - I got a couple other garden variety 20Mhz dual-trace scopes as well, but they rarely see the light of day these days. For a logic analyzer, I have a Tektronix 1240 - older 50Mhz machine. Mine has 54 channels installed, but I only have pods for 36 channels (anyone got spare 1240 pods?). Decent machine, works well, I've got a boxfull of accessories for it, RAM packs, ROM packs which let it understand various instruction sets etc. When I need it it's really handy, but I don't use it near as much as the scopes. If you have a limited budget, I would recommend putting the emphasis on a good scope - most used diagnostic tool on my bench. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Fri Jan 6 17:22:06 2006 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 18:22:06 -0500 Subject: Sinclair computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43BEFB9E.5000805@bellsouth.net> Tony Duell wrote: > I really don't understand the love of Sinclair products. IU'd much rather > have nad use something DEC or HP, or one of the many other companies that > didn't cut every possible corner and then some impossible ones. But then > collectores are often strange. Okay, I'm a little behind on reading the list . . . Still, I feel compelled to reply. Tony, there's a soft spot in my heart for Sinclair and Timex Sinclair machines because the TS1000 (aka ZX81) was my first. It was the only computer I could afford at the time. My exposure to this machine changed my life. The changes might have also occurred if my first computer was a C64, or a PDP-11 -- I'll never know. But I *do* know that using the TS1000 forced me to learn good programming technique in order to get the most out of a minimalist machine. It also taught me that there's almost always *some way* to make things work, despite the limitations of a given piece of hardware. Many people who use Sinclairs today do things with them that the designers themselves said was impossible without hardware modifications -- high-res graphics and high(er) speed data transfer, for example. Just like you, I would have rather had a DEC or HP machine, but, at the time, it was the TS1000 or nothing -- there was simply no other system available for USD$100. Of course, today I have lots of other computers which I use and enjoy, and which are superior in almost every way to the TS1000. But it was my first, so I'm sentimental about it. Best, Glen Goodwin 0/0 From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Jan 6 17:32:29 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 15:32:29 -0800 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, fixed it! Another cable mistake) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43BEFE0D.8040609@mindspring.com> FYI, if you have one of these best to visit the following page: http://www.tek.com/Measurement/cgi-bin/framed.pl?Document=/Measurement/programs/safety/tds200/recall.html&FrameSet=oscilloscopes Synopsis: TDS 210 and TDS 220 Recall In June 1998, Tektronix began the recall of its model TDS 210 and TDS 220 oscilloscopes. We initiated this voluntary program when it was determined that certain incorrect use of these products could cause the ground connection to fail, potentially exposing the user to risk of serious personal injury or death. This ongoing recall applies to TDS 210 and TDS 220 oscilloscopes with serial numbers falling within one of the following ranges: TDS 210:* B010100 *to *B049399 **BU10000 *to *BU50199 **C010000 *to *C010879 * TDS 220:* B010100 *to *B041059 **BU10000 *to *BU50199 **C010000 *to *C011174 * Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 1:53 PM -0700 1/6/06, Richard wrote: > >> So what would y'all recommend for logic analyzer/oscilloscope type >> tools that are useful for vintage computing (i.e. their max >> bandwidth/speed can be slower than needed for current tech) that are >> also affordable? >> >> I know Tektronix and HP are major manufacturers in this area, but I >> would know what to get. *Lots* of these items go up for auction via >> government liquidation at the local Hill AFB, so if I know what I'm >> looking for I should be able to eventually get something by low-bidding. >> >> Suggestions? > > > I rather like my Tektronix TDS-220 Oscilloscope, small and very easy > to use. I also had a Tek 465B, but gave it away as it wasn't working > right, and I needed the space. Of the two, the TDS-220 was definitely > nicer. IIRC, it was also Tek's recommended replacement for a 465B. I > purchased the 465B used and cheap, I got what I paid for, a scope that > didn't work right :^( As a result, I purchased the TDS-220 new, of > course it helped that at the time I could afford it. > > In any case, I always recommend Tek scopes :^) > > Zane > > From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 17:33:36 2006 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 23:33:36 +0000 Subject: What do I call my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B41@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B41@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <11c909eb0601061533g21ba6087u@mail.gmail.com> On 06/01/06, James Fogg wrote: > > > Should I refer to my system (shorthand) as an "LSI-11", an > > "11-03", or something else (besides "that pile of junk parts :) ? > > George. > > "I will love him and pet him and call him George" - from some Warner > Bros. cartoon. It was a big Yeti in a Bugs Bunny cartoon :) To keep it on-topic, George might be confusing as that was the family name of operating systems for ICL 1900 series, what late 60's early 70's? -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From ddl-cctech at danlan.com Fri Jan 6 17:35:44 2006 From: ddl-cctech at danlan.com (Dan Lanciani) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:35:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Bell Technologies "blit" available Message-ID: <200601062335.SAA20383@ss10.danlan.com> Recall that this was a big ECL monochrome display (1600x1200?) with an ISA controller card that uses that Intel graphics coprocessor whose number I can't remember. I have one system (including the unix and drivers that went with it) essentially unused in the original box. Given the original box, shipping might be possible, but it could be expensive. As usual, price is $0. Dan Lanciani ddl at danlan.*com From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Jan 6 17:41:46 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:41:46 -0500 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - In-Reply-To: <200601062159.QAA24795@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200601062159.QAA24795@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20060106184146.57dae812.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 16:41:47 -0500 (EST) der Mouse wrote: > > These times are gone - assembler is irrelevant for larger projects, > > I'm not sure, at least not unless you restrict which kinds of projects > you're talking about. I recently finished playing one of the Ratchet & > Clank games for the PlayStation2, and watched the embedded making-of > video. According to that, their game engine is millions of lines of > assembly. (Unless I misunderstood, of course - I don't have it at > ready hand to rewatch - but it seems unlikely.) > Furthermore, unless you're working on a big team on a huge project, what language is used for 'larger projects' doesn't matter that much. You code it in what's appropriate. And for lots of small-micro projects, assembly language is fine. Anything with big stack overheads just sucks the resources right out the hardware. Plus, in my case at least, I am a hardware oriented person and get annoyed by abstractions. The reset vector is MINE. I like to KNOW where my data is getting stored, etc. I like to know that when a button is pressed, my debounce routine will do what it's supposed to. And an oscilloscope is a software debugging tool, if used right. For some software, the first thing you write is the bit of code that toggles an I/O port high and low to get things started. > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ddl-cctech at danlan.com Fri Jan 6 17:46:23 2006 From: ddl-cctech at danlan.com (Dan Lanciani) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:46:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sun 3/260 available Message-ID: <200601062346.SAA20451@ss10.danlan.com> with desk side cabinet, cpu, one memory board, SCSI, and QIC tape drive (the nicer 24/11 one I think). Located in Gloucester, MA, USA. Shipping is almost certainly prohibitive. Dan Lanciani ddl at danlan.*com From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Jan 6 17:56:54 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 23:56:54 GMT Subject: What do I call my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0601061533g21ba6087u@mail.gmail.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B41@sbs.jdfogg.com> <11c909eb0601061533g21ba6087u@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6ce336e54d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <11c909eb0601061533g21ba6087u at mail.gmail.com> Pete Edwards wrote: > It was a big Yeti in a Bugs Bunny cartoon :) Must be a running joke or something.. I remember something similar from an "Animaniacs" cartoon... That said, maybe my memory's getting flaky. Probably all that solder smoke I've inhaled over the years, not to mention the Magic Smoke from various exploding silicon devices. Damn, I feel old. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... Profanity, the language computerists know. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 6 18:29:44 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 00:29:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "Market" for old macs? In-Reply-To: from "Ronald Wayne" at Jan 5, 6 08:16:14 pm Message-ID: > Using the "right tool" for a job involves a lot more than using a tool > designed for an exact purpose. It involves knowing when you can use a > given tool. If that given tool is a long handled flathead in a torx True.... If my car [1] broke down somewhere, then yes, I would probably misuse tools to get home. Things like using a flat-blade screwdriver to fit an open-ended spanenr that's too large for the nut, using a Mole Wrench (Vise Grips to you, I think) in place of a spanner, using a hammer ratehr than a puller,using a credit card as a feeler gauge for the spark plug gaps (it's about right for most engines) and so on. But I certainly don't do that sort of thing if I can get the right tools easily. [1] OK, I don't have a car (or even know how to drive), but you get the point. You can drive a pozidrive screw with a phillips driver and vice versa. But if you try that on anything I own, or with my tools, you will regret it. It does damage to both the tool and the screw. I basically consider there are 4 cases : 1) The right tool is in the toolbox. Get up and use it!. There is then no excuse for using the wrong tool.. 2) The right tool is easily available and at an affordable price. Unless the job is an emergency (which few hobby repairs to classic computers are), then it is nearly always best to wait until you've got the tool 3) The right tool is unvailable or unaffordable, but there is a kludge that will work with minimal damage. In which case it may be worth trying that kludge. Sometimes the workaround is as good as the original, it just takes longer (e.g. using a measuring device to set the position of something, rather than an accurate lenght 'spacer' from the special toolkit. 4) The right tool is unavailable or unaffordable, and it is essential. Then you have to make a substitute tool. Often 'special tools' can be made in a good home workshop. IMHO, a true craftsman, given the need for a long TX15 driver, and being unable to get one, would make the right form cutter, make a dividing head (heck, it's division by 6, one of the easiests ones to lay out by simple geometery if you had to do it that way), and would mill the darn thing from tool steel, harden it, and do the job properly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 6 18:46:10 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 00:46:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: shipping for monitors In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 5, 6 09:29:51 pm Message-ID: > In the case of the Z-19, I think the root cause is that only 1 of the > 4 mounting screws for the tube in the case had a support bracket. > This is the only mounting post that didn't shear from the rest of the > enclosure. The other 3 posts sheared off at their base to the > enclosure. Some superglue should be able to reattach the posts to the > enclosure so that the whole thing will be "like new". So this might > be something specific to this enclosure design. I would not use isocyano acryllic hydro-copolymerising adhesive. I've never found it that good on plastics. The best way I've found to repair most thermoplastiss is to get a suitable solvent (dichloromethane is often suitable, it's sold by good model shops under the name 'Plastic Weld'). Put the pieces together dry, then run a brush dipped in the solvent along the joins. Then, as I mentioned once before, strenghen it further by takening a piece of cotton cloth, cutting it to fit over the repaired area on the back, puting it on, brushing it over with solvent, and forcing it into the softened plastic. However, for something like a CRT mounting, I'd not trust that. I'd cut off the original pillars, and smooth the inside of the case flat. Then make new metal pillars, drill and tap them along the axis, and fix them in place with screws from the outside. Conenct them to mains earth (or similar), just in case something breaks down and makes the screwheads live. No, it's not original, but then a CRT coming loose is not particularly pleasant. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 6 19:21:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 01:21:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 6, 6 01:53:19 pm Message-ID: > > > In article <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2288 at OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net>, > "Gooijen, Henk" writes: > > > Yes, working your way through the schematics, actually measuring the > > signals, makes you "learn" how something works - in detail! > > I know a little more about the M7859 11/34 console than I did, say > > 2 months ago ... > > So what would y'all recommend for logic analyzer/oscilloscope type > tools that are useful for vintage computing (i.e. their max > bandwidth/speed can be slower than needed for current tech) that are > also affordable? I hate t osay this again, but the most important tool for debugging is a brain :-). I feel that a good engineer/hacker armed with an LED+resistor logic probe is likely to do rather better than an idoit or novice (these are NOT THE DAME THING!) armed with the most expensive 'socpe and analyser available. As to test gear, the main instruments I think you need are : 1) A multimeter. Digital or analogue, the choice is yours (I have, and use, both). It is rare to need to make accurate measurements in classic computer work, so analogue is OK, and in fact better when you want to 'peak' the voltage at some test point or something like that. If you go digital, I would certainly consider a Fluke. A Very useful feature is a continuity buzzer, a beeper that sounds if the resistance between the probes is less than a certain, fixed, value. But make sure it repsonds quickly (and doesn't, for example, take the time for the autoranging system to work and then for the instrument to take a couple of samples). You will want, quite often, to clip one probe onto, say, a wire at one end of a cable, and run the other probe down the pins at the other end. You don't want to have to stop and wait on each pin. 2) A logic probe. HP have made some nice ones over the years (I've seen them on E-overpay from time to time). Actually, a cheap one (Radio Shack used to sell them) is all you need for most work. This is very useful for fioding a signal that's stuck high, or something like that. If you are a rich enthusiast, consider attempting to find an HP 'Advanced Logic Probe' aka LogicDart. It's a handheld thing that acts as a digital voltmeter, frequency meter, logic probe and 3-channel logic analyser. A word of warning, if you ever use one of these you will be 'hooked'.... 3) A 'scope. I would always consider Tektronix here. Actually, I rarely use a 'scope, other than for disk drive alignments and PSU repairs, neither of which need a particularly highly spec'ed instrument. Mine is a very old, valved, Tektronix 555 with an assortment of plug-ins. If I was buying now, I'd consider getting a second-hand 7000 series or 460 series. Nothing much more recent, IMHO Tektronix went way downhill when they stopped putting schematics in the user manual. A typical spec for most classic computer work would be dual trace, at least 20MHz. External trigger -- and a good trigger system -- is essential, if you can't keep the trace still you can't measure from it. Delayed timebase (or a second timebase which can be used as a delay) is very useful. Storage is useful, but by no means essenital. 4) A logic analyser. Tektronix made a reasonable one as a plug-in for the 7000-series 'scopes. HP and Gould also made analysers, either stand-alone or as plug-ins for 'scopes. I would say at least 50MHz and preferably 100MHz is fine for classic computers. 16 channels is enough (you can get away with fewer if you have to). Make sure you get the probes/pods with the instrument, they are _hell_ to find on their own and often get lost/separated from the unit. The ability to transfer the captured data to another computer for more analysis (often via an RS232 or GPIB port) is very useful I have several analysers, but the main one is a Gould K100D (I think the manual is on Bitsavers). 16 channel, 100MHz. I have never needed anything more 5) An EPROM Emulator. I put this under test equipment because it's very useful to replace the ROMs in a system with an emulator containing a little test program (even something as simple as a jump to itself), and see what happens. I built my own, they are not complicated. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 6 19:03:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 01:03:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RL02 write faults, fixed it! Another cable mistake In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2288@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Jan 6, 6 09:42:56 pm Message-ID: > > > [snip - very instructive part] > > > > However, I now know much more about RL drives than I care to, and > > can fix the logic if it ever really does fail :) > > > > -Charles > = > > Yes, working your way through the schematics, actually measuring the > signals, makes you "learn" how something works - in detail! Doens't it just.... A lot more than easter-eggging parts, anyhow :-) More seriously, having done this sort of thing many times, I have found it a great way to understand it all works. A day spent attacking a TTL-built minicomputer CPU with a 'scope or logic analyser and the printset will teach you a lot more than most books on the subject. And I find it a great feeling when you finally track down the fault, however 'stupid' the casue (BTW, I've had that short from IDC sockets on DEC board headers. It's a nasty fault the first time you get it... -tony From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Jan 6 19:33:14 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 19:33:14 -0600 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs Message-ID: <5129fd0aaad748558843b3c8d2700cf2@valleyimplants.com> I was not intending to give an exhaustive definition of "reverse engineering", simply to illustrate that there is a significant difference between it and copying/"piracy" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 6 19:35:54 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 01:35:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More on test equioment. Message-ID: A couple of things I forgot to put in my other message. Firslty, another instrument that you _need_ is a bench PSU. Adjustable voltage (at least up to 12V, preferably twice that), and at least 5A, with current limiting. You will find this invaluable for powering up logic boards outside the main machine, temporarily substuting for battery packs, testing motors, solenoids, etc. running motors when doing mechancial alignments, and so on. One somewhat unconventional use I put mine to recently was to 'lock' a stepper motor. By connecting one winding of the motor to the PSU and turning up the voltage until a moderate current flowed, I could lock the motor spindle and thus the pulley on said spindle. Running the steel cable that went onto that pulley and which operated the pen carriage in a ploter was a lot easier with the motor locked. Secondly, 'good' does not mean 'lots of features'. Many such features are little more than gimmicks to be mentioned in the advertising. For example, many digital multimeters have a transistor Hfe range. Since I have no idea what collector current is used, this is somewhat useless. If I need to test a transistor, I will use my real transistor tester (a Tek 575, OK...). You can do a quick go/no-go test on a transistor using the diode test range to make sure the junctions are still intact and not shorted, of course. [OK, there is one use for the Hfe range. Once you've used the diode test range to (a) determine the polarity) anf (b) find the base lead, connect it to the meter (Hfe range) with the base going to the right socket and the other 2 leads going to the emitter and collector sockets. Try it with the latter both ways round. The connection that appears to give the higher Hfe is likely to be the correct one. No, it's not a substitue for looking the thing up in a data book, but if you have a house-coded part it can be useful...] -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 6 19:45:18 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 17:45:18 -0800 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, fixed it! Another cable mistake) In-Reply-To: <43BEFE0D.8040609@mindspring.com> References: <43BEFE0D.8040609@mindspring.com> Message-ID: At 3:32 PM -0800 1/6/06, Don North wrote: > TDS 210 and TDS 220 Recall > >In June 1998, Tektronix began the recall of its model TDS 210 and >TDS 220 oscilloscopes. We initiated this voluntary program when it >was determined that certain incorrect use of these products could >cause the ground connection to fail, potentially exposing the user >to risk of serious personal injury or death. Ouch! Thanks for the warning! Thankfully that's before I bought my TDS-220, but I just double-checked, and I'm in the clear. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jan 6 20:00:37 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 20:00:37 -0600 Subject: What do I call my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B41@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B41@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <43BF20C5.8050900@mdrconsult.com> James Fogg wrote: >>Should I refer to my system (shorthand) as an "LSI-11", an >>"11-03", or something else (besides "that pile of junk parts :) ? > > > George. > > "I will love him and pet him and call him George" - from some Warner > Bros. cartoon. I've always had a computer named George, and that's where the name came from. :) Just like any admin with SPARC systems in his network *must* name a machine Elvis. Doc From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Jan 6 20:40:14 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:40:14 -0500 Subject: Sinclair computers In-Reply-To: <43BEFB9E.5000805@bellsouth.net> References: <43BEFB9E.5000805@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <200601062140.14324.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 06 January 2006 06:22 pm, Glen Goodwin wrote: > It also taught me that there's almost always *some way* to make > things work, despite the limitations of a given piece of hardware. > Many people who use Sinclairs today do things with them that the > designers themselves said was impossible without hardware > modifications -- high-res graphics and high(er) speed data transfer, > for example. You mean there's actually something useful that can be done with one of those? I forgot that one, when I was making my list, have one of them too, somewhere... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Jan 6 20:41:59 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:41:59 -0500 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - In-Reply-To: <20060106184146.57dae812.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200601062159.QAA24795@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060106184146.57dae812.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200601062141.59428.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 06 January 2006 06:41 pm, Scott Stevens wrote: > Plus, in my case at least, I am a hardware oriented person and get annoyed > by abstractions. The reset vector is MINE. I like to KNOW where my data is > getting stored, etc. I like to know that when a button is pressed, my > debounce routine will do what it's supposed to. :-D -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From charlesmorris at direcway.com Fri Jan 6 21:19:29 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 21:19:29 -0600 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, fixed it! Another cable mistake) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5fcur1dapl7gus3cjkvnf9t3hq2n28incu@4ax.com> >For a logic analyzer, I have a Tektronix 1240 - older 50Mhz machine. Mine has >54 channels installed, but I only have pods for 36 channels (anyone got spare >1240 pods?). Decent machine, works well, I've got a boxfull of accessories for >it, RAM packs, ROM packs which let it understand various instruction sets etc. I used to work with one of those over 20 years ago. Big and heavy, but now quite inexpensive (except shipping :) The pods (as with most logic analyzers) can be hard to find if not included with the mainframe. >When I need it it's really handy, but I don't use it near as much as the scopes. True, but when you need it you REALLY need it. Like trying to find a single-event write fault in the RL02 "circular" logic... no way to do it with my 545 scope! > >If you have a limited budget, I would recommend putting the emphasis on a >good scope - most used diagnostic tool on my bench. > >Regards, >Dave I agree - the scope is the single most useful tool. A Tek 7D01 is an old but simple logic analyzer plugin (16 bit, 10 ns sample rate) and can be inserted into several 7000 series scopes when you're not using the vertical and timebase plugins. It's perfect for debugging discrete logic. For microprocessor work I'd prefer a 1240. There are obviously much better analyzers available but for the money those two are pretty decent IMHO. Again, make sure to get the pods. The 7D01 plugin can often be had for $10 or less but the two pods and leads/clips can be several times more expensive... -Charles From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Jan 6 17:13:25 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 23:13:25 +0000 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, In-Reply-To: References: from "Richard" at Jan 6, 6 01:53:19 pm Message-ID: <20060107032014.QUWY17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > I hate to say this again, but the most important tool for debugging is a > brain :-). I feel that a good engineer/hacker armed with an LED+resistor > logic probe is likely to do rather better than an idoit or novice (these > are NOT THE DAME THING!) armed with the most expensive 'socpe and > analyser available. An excellent point - My favorite related story when working at a local telecom company, happened to visit a guys desk just as he was getting up - said he was going to get the logic analyzer. Told me what was "going wrong", and went off to get it (other side of lab) - by the time he came back I pointed out the cause... Told him I had used the LA between my ears. He just hadn't even tried to figure it out, relying on the LA as his first action... I rarely need the LA (it's so much work to hook up) ... Course - when I do decide I need it, I *really* need it! > 1) A multimeter. Digital or analogue, the choice is yours (I have, and > use, both). It is rare to need to make accurate measurements in classic > computer work, so analogue is OK, and in fact better when you want to > 'peak' the voltage at some test point or something like that. If you go > digital, I would certainly consider a Fluke. > > A Very useful feature is a continuity buzzer, a beeper that sounds if the > resistance between the probes is less than a certain, fixed, value. But > make sure it repsonds quickly (and doesn't, for example, take the time > for the autoranging system to work and then for the instrument to take a > couple of samples). You will want, quite often, to clip one probe onto, > say, a wire at one end of a cable, and run the other probe down the pins > at the other end. You don't want to have to stop and wait on each pin. #1 tool, and I agree completely on fluke/quality. Continuity buzzer is essential, and I find a LOT of the cheaper meters (even the fixed range ones) take too long detect continuity - basically, they do it by taking a measurement and only after it has done it's "digital approximation" does it figure out the connection is below 'x' ohms. Thats a related problem - I find the cheaper meters are fixed at 200-500 ohms as being "continuity". Sometimes you need to know that it's zero (or almost so), and sometimes you want to know that higher value paths exist - thats why I built a separate continuity buzzer with very low in-circuit current, and an adjustable threshold. Hold function is handy, so you can take a tricky measurement without having to take your eyes off it, but otherwise the basics are all that you need. > 2) A logic probe. HP have made some nice ones over the years (I've seen > them on E-overpay from time to time). Actually, a cheap one (Radio Shack > used to sell them) is all you need for most work. This is very useful for > fioding a signal that's stuck high, or something like that. If you are a > rich enthusiast, consider attempting to find an HP 'Advanced Logic Probe' > aka LogicDart. It's a handheld thing that acts as a digital voltmeter, > frequency meter, logic probe and 3-channel logic analyser. A word of > warning, if you ever use one of these you will be 'hooked'.... Disagree on the cheaper ones - Tried the RS one - it doesn't represent a valid TTL input (it is supposedly switchable for TTL/CMOS) but don't believe that you are actually close to representative of a real input. These days I tend to use the scope when I need a logic probe. With a slower sweep you can see even short pulses, you can also see the level and what the pulse looks like if you need to. Yeah, it's overkill, but I have them and they do the job well. My latest one (the TDS) has a nifty "autoset" function that will get "most anything" viewable very quickly which makes it just about as easy to use for the task. Also, the scope can see the relationship between two signals much easier than a probe. > 3) A 'scope. I would always consider Tektronix here. Actually, I rarely > use a 'scope, other than for disk drive alignments and PSU repairs, > neither of which need a particularly highly spec'ed instrument. Mine is a > very old, valved, Tektronix 555 with an assortment of plug-ins. If I was > buying now, I'd consider getting a second-hand 7000 series or 460 series. > Nothing much more recent, IMHO Tektronix went way downhill when they > stopped putting schematics in the user manual. > > A typical spec for most classic computer work would be dual trace, at > least 20MHz. External trigger -- and a good trigger system -- is > essential, if you can't keep the trace still you can't measure from it. > Delayed timebase (or a second timebase which can be used as a delay) is > very useful. Storage is useful, but by no means essenital. I went for years with scopes like you describe, however I think it's like your "Advanced Logic Probe" - once you get used to a good DSO you get "hooked". I find the ability to look at a single shot (or very short duration) event to be most helpful. I'd say a scope is my #2 instrument. > 4) A logic analyser. Tektronix made a reasonable one as a plug-in for the > 7000-series 'scopes. HP and Gould also made analysers, either stand-alone > or as plug-ins for 'scopes. > > I would say at least 50MHz and preferably 100MHz is fine for classic > computers. 16 channels is enough (you can get away with fewer if you have > to). Make sure you get the probes/pods with the instrument, they are > _hell_ to find on their own and often get lost/separated from the unit. > The ability to transfer the captured data to another computer for more > analysis (often via an RS232 or GPIB port) is very useful. Don't know where to put it on my "list" but it's a ways down. Most repairs can be figured out quicker by other means, but when required, it can be exceptionally handy. Whatever you pick, put some time into learning it's capabilities as there is a lot you can do with these things. > 5) An EPROM Emulator. I put this under test equipment because it's very > useful to replace the ROMs in a system with an emulator containing a > little test program (even something as simple as a jump to itself), and > see what happens. I built my own, they are not complicated. This one is pretty high on my list, perhaps #3 or 4 when fixing a computer. Once you get the CPU and ROM to operate, you can start doing diagnostics from "inside" with an eprom emulator - often in conjunction with the other tools listed above (use the CPU to generate a repeating access and then follow it through etc.) Also agree with the bench power-supply you posted in another message. I built one with a nice variable section, as well as fixed 5V and +/-12V outputs. Panel volt/amp meters are essential. Another tool I use a lot is a little analog amp meter - the old fashioned "wedge" kind with two terminals on top - very handy from time to time. I also have a little "clock generator" I put together which has DIP switches to set the frequency and generates square waves - occationally it has been very useful to clock a circult at a certain rate - often to slow down "fast" stuff so I can see what it's doing. Course in our line of work, the "light bulb box" and Variac rate pretty high on the bench tool list too! -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 6 21:35:12 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 16:35:12 +1300 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/7/06, Tony Duell wrote: > 2) A logic probe. HP have made some nice ones over the years (I've seen > them on E-overpay from time to time). Actually, a cheap one (Radio Shack > used to sell them) is all you need for most work. This is very useful for > fioding a signal that's stuck high, or something like that. If you are a > rich enthusiast, consider attempting to find an HP 'Advanced Logic Probe' > aka LogicDart. It's a handheld thing that acts as a digital voltmeter, > frequency meter, logic probe and 3-channel logic analyser. A word of > warning, if you ever use one of these you will be 'hooked'.... One of my buddies has one of these - it's verrrry nice. I'll have to start looking for one. > 5) An EPROM Emulator. I put this under test equipment because it's very > useful to replace the ROMs in a system with an emulator containing a > little test program (even something as simple as a jump to itself), and > see what happens. I built my own, they are not complicated. I have a couple of these... I can't recommend them highly enough. I first used one to develop firmware for a VAXBI communications board - in the old days, we'd try out a firmware release, see it fail, power down the VAX (15 min), pull the board, change the firmware, burn new EPROMs, reboot the VAX, try again... we were lucky to get 4 cycles per day. Insert an EPROM emulator and suddenly we saved the entire power-off cycle and burn time. I even threw in the command to reload the emulator at the end of the makefile and with literally an "EDIT" plus a "MAKE" (for VMS), things were ready to try again in under a minute. If you do firmware development, get one of these tools. I have a PROMice and a ROMulator. Very handy. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 6 23:06:28 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 21:06:28 -0800 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601062106280904.2310C9F2@10.0.0.252> On 1/7/2006 at 4:35 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: >> attempting to find an HP 'Advanced Logic Probe' >> aka LogicDart. It's a handheld thing that acts as a digital voltmeter, >> frequency meter, logic probe and 3-channel logic analyser. A word of >> warning, if you ever use one of these you will be 'hooked'.... Was that the little hand-held logic analyzer that Agilent came out with and then, almost at the same time, discontinued? It looked like a very handly little gizmo. Why did HP/Agilent drop them? I've seen some inexpensive USB logic analyzers (USB pods, I think) that might be worthwhile having. Cheers, Chuck From david_comley at yahoo.com Fri Jan 6 23:08:46 2006 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:08:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Charles River Data Systems - Universe 68/05 Message-ID: <20060107050846.31754.qmail@web30609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I posted an inquiry about this back in 2005 but I thought I would try this again with the list. Charles River Data Systems - Universe 68/05 - I acquired one of these last year with no information or software. Does anyone have any details on this machine ? I understand these were quite common at one time back in the 80's. It has an 8" floppy drive on the front and a SASI interface on the back, amongst other things. Any and all information appreciated, especially a list of status codes for the diagnostic panel or any bootable 8" media. Thanks, Dave david_comley at yahoo.com __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From James at jdfogg.com Fri Jan 6 23:29:50 2006 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 00:29:50 -0500 Subject: Sun 3/260 available Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B4A@sbs.jdfogg.com> > with desk side cabinet, cpu, one memory board, SCSI, and QIC > tape drive (the nicer 24/11 one I think). Located in > Gloucester, MA, USA. Shipping is almost certainly prohibitive. > > Dan Lanciani > ddl at danlan.*com I'd like to give this a good home. I'm local and can pick up. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 03:06:19 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 01:06:19 -0800 Subject: Shipping a Tek 4115 Message-ID: I have shipped Tek 4115s. Is it a two piece upright 4115 or the two piece 4115B? In both cases they are aluminum and not plastic, and probably have to go freight. The Upright I would wrap in large bubblewrap to protect the connectors, wrap the front and back of the monitor and wrap and box the keyboard and cables. Retract the keyboard table. I would remove the front plate covering the card cage and put pink anti stat large bubble over the cards and then put the front plate back on to hold the cards in place. I would tape or strap a band around the bottom where the card cage is. to hold it together. Put it on a normal pallet with cardboard underneath so the wheels won't roll. Or lay it on its back. Put the monitor flat on the pallet behind the stand if upright or beside if you lay the stand down.. If upright rest it on a couple of pieces of wood you can take all the pressure off the wheels which are actually quite fragile. Then protect it with double layer cardboard cut to fit the CPU/stand and and also the monitor (bubble in-between). Then make a double layer cardboard box around it, put corner protectors on the top and strap it tightly to the pallet with at least two or three bands. Do not leave the monitor on the stand. Even if it is shrink wrapped on it will move as it has lots of mass and becomes top heavy. They must be separated. If it is the two piece (my favorite) you need a different pallet as the pieces go side by side. I don't think I would put the tube face down as the mounts are aluminum and much stronger. I would also not box and ship by UPS, not sure you can because of size and weight. Again protect the cards with internal pink anti stat bubble and put the case back together. More bubble to protect the face of the tube and the connectors on both and cover with heavy cardboard. Wrap, with large bubble, the keyboard separately and box with the interconnect cables underneath. The front of the CPU box will pop out to display the 8 inch drives. Protect the front with bubble and cardboard and run a strap around the box to hold it together so it won't pop open. Place the CPU box on the pallet. Put cardboard under the wheels so it won't roll when you don't want it to. Place the Monitor on the pallet with the keyboard and cable box in-between. Wrap all in more double weight cardboard, put on corner protectors and strap to the pallet with two parallel straps. You can also use a short gaylord, a pallet size cardboard box usually used to hold bulk products. Protect each of the three pieces in it as mentioned above. Lock them in the gaylord with hard foam cut to fit so they won't move. Strap the box to the pallet. If you put an upright 4115 in a Gaylord you can lay the Card cage stand flat on its back. You should have already protected the connectors with bubble and heavy cardboard before you lay it down. You want to strap it tightly with the force pulling the units down. It should survive fine. In my storage container I have extra cards to ugrade one to a 4128 I think. Who is asking the big bucks? Reply privately, please, if you want to tell me. Or if you have specific questions. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From bert at brothom.nl Sat Jan 7 05:34:00 2006 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 12:34:00 +0100 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43BFA728.5010407@brothom.nl> > So old core processors tend become embedded (pun intended) within companies. > It takes a significant new bauble to break through. The last major change I > saw in embedded processors was the ARM chip sets. They were slow to get > accepted but now are everywhere. Probably another 10-15 years of life > there. And of course the PIC devices are so cheap that they HAD to be > utilized. I don't see anything out there now that would be so superior as > to be worth the cost of change. Why do you say PIC devices are cheap? I find them expensive, as many other companies make more advanced devices costing less. Currently I'm hooked to Philips' LPC family of ARM controllers(I even won a price with a design contest for this family very recently). You can have 64K flash, 16K ram, an ARM7 core, 2 uarts and many other nice peripherals for less then five dollar in very low quantities. In 100k quantities they only cost slightly more then 2 dollars. If you compare that price/performance ratio to Microchips portfolio I think you must aggree that they by no means can compete with that. Oh yeah, you don't need to buy any tools to get the LPC213x family to work. They come with build-in ROM code that can program the flash memory over a serial port. Fully documented, but an easy-to-use windows program can be downloaded for free from the web. You can either use the free GNU ARM toolchain or buy one of the commercial ones. Bert From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Jan 7 06:30:14 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 07:30:14 -0500 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, fixed it! Another cable mistake) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 06 Jan 2006 19:14:42 GMT." <20060106232129.PEZN15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200601071230.k07CUExI028330@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Dave Dunfield" wrote: >> I rather like my Tektronix TDS-220 Oscilloscope, small and very easy >> to use. I also had a Tek 465B, but gave it away as it wasn't working I'd second this. I have a TDS-2024 which I like very much. But's overkill for what you are trying to do (I need 4 traces and 200mhz for what I do). The 220 would work fine. I've used most of the TDS line and always find them easy to use and reliable. (but I always lust for the the higher end models ;-) the nice thing about the TDS smaller size scopes is they are really easy to bring into the field. I've spend time under desks at gas stations with mine :-) -brad From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Jan 7 02:58:49 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 08:58:49 +0000 Subject: What do I call my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 06 Jan 2006 23:33:36 GMT." <11c909eb0601061533g21ba6087u@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200601070858.IAA17845@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Pete Edwards said: > > > "I will love him and pet him and call him George" - from some Warner > > Bros. cartoon. > > > It was a big Yeti in a Bugs Bunny cartoon :) > > To keep it on-topic, George might be confusing as that was the family name > of operating systems for ICL 1900 series, what late 60's early 70's? We were using it into the '80s until we switched computers to a Univac. Interesting ICL 1900 info here: http://www.fcs.eu.com/icl1900/index.html -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Jan 7 07:20:41 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 13:20:41 GMT Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <247a80e54d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I hate t osay this again, but the most important tool for debugging is a > brain :-). I feel that a good engineer/hacker armed with an LED+resistor > logic probe is likely to do rather better than an idoit or novice (these > are NOT THE DAME THING!) armed with the most expensive 'socpe and > analyser available. Yeah, LED+resistor debugging is fun. Downclock the CPU to a few Hz and watch the data bits fly by :) > 1) A multimeter. Digital or analogue, the choice is yours (I have, and > use, both). It is rare to need to make accurate measurements in classic > computer work, so analogue is OK, and in fact better when you want to > 'peak' the voltage at some test point or something like that. If you go > digital, I would certainly consider a Fluke. Avoid the cheap little "pocket" meters though. If it isn't a Fluke, it's likely to be horrendously inaccurate at best. I once had a cheapie DMM that was about 1.5V out on the 3V scale, and 5V out on the 30V scale. Fluke 25 and 27 ruggedised DMMs are starting to appear on the surplus market; seems most of them are ex-military stock. They're pretty rugged, but also rather heavy. I've got a Fluke 25 that's been dropped a fair few times, and still works perfectly. I've also got a Solartron 7150plus. Very nice bench DMM, but watch out for the power line filter module. The capacitors inside are getting old and tend to go bang, leaving a thick coating of soot on virtually all the power supply circuit when they blow. Schaffner still sell them (via RS), but they're ?45 a throw IIRC. You could replace the capacitors, but good luck getting the case open. > If you are a > rich enthusiast, consider attempting to find an HP 'Advanced Logic Probe' > aka LogicDart. It's a handheld thing that acts as a digital voltmeter, > frequency meter, logic probe and 3-channel logic analyser. A word of > warning, if you ever use one of these you will be 'hooked'.... *drool* Or if you don't want to buy one, design your own. I've got (somewhere) the schematics for a 20MHz 8-channel logic analyser/logic probe based on a Gameboy. I still need to write the software, but the logic side of things looks OK. > 3) A 'scope. I would always consider Tektronix here. Actually, I rarely > use a 'scope, other than for disk drive alignments and PSU repairs, > neither of which need a particularly highly spec'ed instrument. Mine is a > very old, valved, Tektronix 555 with an assortment of plug-ins. If I was > buying now, I'd consider getting a second-hand 7000 series or 460 series. > Nothing much more recent, IMHO Tektronix went way downhill when they > stopped putting schematics in the user manual. The 466 is a nice little scope. 100MHz, dual channel, dual timebase and analogue storage. Not as nice as a DSO, but a hell of a lot cheaper, and just as usable. The trace is a little fuzzy though, thanks in part to the storage CRT. Still perfectly usable, though, and the storage function makes it easier to get photos off the screen. > 4) A logic analyser. Tektronix made a reasonable one as a plug-in for the > 7000-series 'scopes. HP and Gould also made analysers, either stand-alone > or as plug-ins for 'scopes. HP 1651Bs are very nice - 32 channels, but make sure it comes with the pods and grabbers! Agilent still sell pod/grabber kits, but they charge insane amounts for them - upwards of $400. On e-OverPay, they're hard to find at the best of times. I've got two pods, two of the woven pod-to-analyser cables, a pack of grabbers (only enough for one pod though) and a bag of replacement probe cables. System disks can be rebuilt with a DOS PC and a copy of ImageDisk (it's actualy faster than LIFUTIL). As long as the machine passes the powerup self-test, it's probably fine. > The ability to transfer the captured data to another computer for more > analysis (often via an RS232 or GPIB port) is very useful The 1651B can do this, but I haven't made an attempt to decode the acquisition data that it passes over GPIB. Inverse Assemblers are also fun to play with - I've got one that I threw together for the 6502, and IIRC Jim Kearney has done one for the 8008. > I have several analysers, but the main one is a Gould K100D (I think the > manual is on Bitsavers). 16 channel, 100MHz. I have never needed anything > more I had a Gould analogue oscilloscope at one point - an OS1100A. Very nice machine, 30MHz dual-trace with delay-sweep. Lovely little machine. A little sensitive to cold though - if the temperature goes below 10 C, it won't even power up. > 5) An EPROM Emulator. I put this under test equipment because it's very > useful to replace the ROMs in a system with an emulator containing a > little test program (even something as simple as a jump to itself), and > see what happens. I built my own, they are not complicated. Same here - there's nothing like the sense of achievement you get when building your own test equipment. Plus the fact that having designed and built it, you also have all the information you need to repair it. I've put full schematics for my EPROM emulator online - I actually entered it into the PICLIST.com design contest last year. The Mk1, BTW, was a very fussy parallel-port thing that emulated a printer. It had the annoying quirk of running fine on my laptop, but refusing to work with anything else. Hence the swap to RS-232 on the Mk2. Yes, there's a PICmicro running it, but the source code is available and pretty well commented. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... I will not steal this tagline, it eez scratched. From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Jan 7 08:29:16 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:29:16 -0000 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, fixed it! Another cable mistake) References: <5fcur1dapl7gus3cjkvnf9t3hq2n28incu@4ax.com> Message-ID: <011601c61396$be05a160$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> . > > True, but when you need it you REALLY need it. Like trying to find > a single-event write fault in the RL02 "circular" logic... no way > to do it with my 545 scope! > > the 545B is a good scope, 30Mhz bandwidth (with the right plug-in). I use my "classic" 500 series scopes for a lot of things, mainly because the trigger is very reliable. The 547 (50MHz), with tunnel diode trigger, will trigger on 1GHz pulses - very useful for catching glitches (you don't see the glitch, but you do get a trace "bright-up" to show an event). The 549 analogue storage would be good for a lot of vintage work (anyone in the UK got one they don't want.....) Jim. From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Sat Jan 7 10:29:22 2006 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 17:29:22 +0100 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - In-Reply-To: <200601062159.QAA24795@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200601062159.QAA24795@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43BFEC62.6090106@ais.fraunhofer.de> der Mouse wrote: >>These times are gone - assembler is irrelevant for larger projects, >> >> > >I'm not sure, at least not unless you restrict which kinds of projects >you're talking about. I recently finished playing one of the Ratchet & >Clank games for the PlayStation2, and watched the embedded making-of >video. According to that, their game engine is millions of lines of >assembly. (Unless I misunderstood, of course - I don't have it at >ready hand to rewatch - but it seems unlikely.) > > Okay, to specify this claim a bit more: there are still applications where you use assembler, or rather, it is not complete applications but small subroutines which cannot be efficiently done with C code, for instance the low-level part of an interrupt dispatcher, or some initialization parts of a kernel that fiddle with special registers or enable paging or alike. Also few parts of a standard library that deal with I/O ports are often written in assembler, provided the C compiler does not already know how to handle them. Other than that, the current generation of so-called "programmers", according to my observation, avoid anything that is not close to be clickable, or "object-oriented" (read: blown-up, slow, inefficient - not the classic OO style as it was intended - programming skills haven't really improved since COBOL days): assembler is 666, size or speed, or engineering quality no longer matters; get the junk out of the door before the enterprise is reorganized or the dept is closed. Concerning that playstation game which I don't know, I'd rather interpret that as advertising bullshit. One could simply count the number of people involved in programming the core and estimate how many lines of assembly one would have needed to write. If the result were even in the 10**5..6 range or even higher, I'd consider this unrealistic unless one speaks of excessive code duplication. Some code like the OS/2 kernel is about 2 thirds of assembly code, the rest is 16 bit or 32 bit C, but this is about 800K executable size - not really millions of LOC. Holger From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Jan 7 10:55:27 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 11:55:27 -0500 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - In-Reply-To: <43BFEC62.6090106@ais.fraunhofer.de> References: <200601062159.QAA24795@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43BFEC62.6090106@ais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <20060107115527.2a4ab634.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 17:29:22 +0100 Holger Veit wrote: > der Mouse wrote: > > >>These times are gone - assembler is irrelevant for larger projects, > >> > >> > > > >I'm not sure, at least not unless you restrict which kinds of projects > >you're talking about. I recently finished playing one of the Ratchet & > >Clank games for the PlayStation2, and watched the embedded making-of > >video. According to that, their game engine is millions of lines of > >assembly. (Unless I misunderstood, of course - I don't have it at > >ready hand to rewatch - but it seems unlikely.) > > > > > Okay, to specify this claim a bit more: there are still applications > where you use assembler, or rather, it is not complete applications but > small subroutines which cannot be efficiently done with C code, for > instance the low-level part of an interrupt dispatcher, or some > initialization parts of a kernel that fiddle with special registers or > enable paging or alike. > > Also few parts of a standard library that deal with I/O ports are often > written in assembler, provided the C compiler does not already know how > to handle them. > > Other than that, the current generation of so-called "programmers", > according to my observation, avoid anything that is not close to be > clickable, or "object-oriented" (read: blown-up, slow, inefficient - not > the classic OO style as it was intended - programming skills haven't > really improved since COBOL days): assembler is 666, size or speed, or > engineering quality no longer matters; get the junk out of the door > before the enterprise is reorganized or the dept is closed. > > Concerning that playstation game which I don't know, I'd rather > interpret that as advertising bullshit. One could simply count the > number of people involved in programming the core and estimate how many > lines of assembly one would have needed to write. If the result were > even in the 10**5..6 range or even higher, I'd consider this unrealistic > unless one speaks of excessive code duplication. Some code like the OS/2 > kernel is about 2 thirds of assembly code, the rest is 16 bit or 32 bit > C, but this is about 800K executable size - not really millions of LOC. > An 800k executable can be the result of millions of lines of assembly code. Certainly at least a million or several. > Holger > From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Sat Jan 7 11:12:40 2006 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 17:12:40 -0000 Subject: ICL1900 In-Reply-To: <200601070858.IAA17845@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <001101c613ad$908edeb0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> > Interesting ICL 1900 info here: http://www.fcs.eu.com/icl1900/index.html Thank you for this link - seems as if more survives than I had feared ... perhaps even time to think again about a project to build a 1900 on a FPGA ( I have some fairly detailed documents on the internals of the 1905 CPU - the implicit wired-or usage in the arithmetic unit will cause some translation difficulties when transferring to modern logic styles, but looks plausible.) Andy From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Jan 7 11:16:35 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 09:16:35 -0800 Subject: Paper-tape driven PROM programmer Message-ID: <200601070916350733.17669683@192.168.42.129> This is definitely a first. More specifically, it's the first time I've ever seen any PROM programmer unit that has paper tape I/O. Pop over to Greed-bay, and check item #7579262264. Amazing... I wonder if the thing does 1702's? Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From charlesmorris at direcway.com Sat Jan 7 11:35:39 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 11:35:39 -0600 Subject: New 11/24, what to do first? Message-ID: Now that my 11-23+ ("George" :) seems to be happy, it's time to start playing with the other new acquisition, an 11/24. Maybe that one will be "Elvis". It's got quite a lot of cards inside, but I haven't inventoried them yet (this afternoon's task). Obviously I need to find out exactly what it's populated with, and look for a user's guide and technical manual on bitsavers. Keeping in mind that I know nothing about this machine yet, what should I do as a "quick start"? I have powered it up and the fans and power-ok lights come on, so that's a good beginning. There are no disk drives and all the ribbon cables were cut by a previous rescuer :( Does it have a console ODT mode so I'll at least know it's alive or dead? Where would the console port be? thanks Charles From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat Jan 7 11:35:38 2006 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 11:35:38 -0600 Subject: Bell Technologies "blit" available In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:35:44 -0500 (EST) . <200601062335.SAA20383@ss10.danlan.com> Message-ID: <20060107173715.BOVU269.ibm59aec.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> In message <200601062335.SAA20383 at ss10.danlan.com>, Dan Lanciani writes: >Recall that this was a big ECL monochrome display (1600x1200?) with an ISA >controller card that uses that Intel graphics coprocessor whose number I >can't remember. I have one system (including the unix and drivers that >went with it) essentially unused in the original box. Given the original >box, shipping might be possible, but it could be expensive. As usual, price >is $0. About how big is the box and about how much does it weigh? I would be interested at least. As it turns out, I work for FedEx and get an employee discount on shipping, so it might not be a killer to ship it. Where would it be shipping from? Thanks, Brian L. Stuart From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat Jan 7 11:34:29 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 12:34:29 -0500 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, In-Reply-To: <20060107032014.QUWY17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060107032014.QUWY17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200601071234.29648.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 06 January 2006 06:13 pm, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > A Very useful feature is a continuity buzzer, a beeper that sounds if the > > resistance between the probes is less than a certain, fixed, value. But > > make sure it repsonds quickly (and doesn't, for example, take the time > > for the autoranging system to work and then for the instrument to take a > > couple of samples). You will want, quite often, to clip one probe onto, > > say, a wire at one end of a cable, and run the other probe down the pins > > at the other end. You don't want to have to stop and wait on each pin. > > #1 tool, and I agree completely on fluke/quality. Continuity buzzer is > essential, and I find a LOT of the cheaper meters (even the fixed range > ones) take too long detect continuity - basically, they do it by taking a > measurement and only after it has done it's "digital approximation" does it > figure out the connection is below 'x' ohms. Thats a related problem - I > find the cheaper meters are fixed at 200-500 ohms as being "continuity". > Sometimes you need to know that it's zero (or almost so), and sometimes you > want to know that higher value paths exist - thats why I built a separate > continuity buzzer with very low in-circuit current, and an adjustable > threshold. I forget where I ran across it on the 'net, but there was a design out there where the tone would change somewhat for differing low values of resistance, to the point where you could find that aspect of it real useful. I keep thinking I'm going to get around to building one of those one of these days.. <...> > > 2) A logic probe. HP have made some nice ones over the years (I've seen > > them on E-overpay from time to time). Actually, a cheap one (Radio Shack > > used to sell them) is all you need for most work. This is very useful for > > fioding a signal that's stuck high, or something like that. If you are a > > rich enthusiast, consider attempting to find an HP 'Advanced Logic Probe' > > aka LogicDart. It's a handheld thing that acts as a digital voltmeter, > > frequency meter, logic probe and 3-channel logic analyser. A word of > > warning, if you ever use one of these you will be 'hooked'.... > > Disagree on the cheaper ones - Tried the RS one - it doesn't represent a > valid TTL input (it is supposedly switchable for TTL/CMOS) but don't > believe that you are actually close to representative of a real input. Got one here that was back when "Global Specialites" was still in their earlier incarnation as "Continental Specialties", if I'm remembering right. And another one I got at Yamaha that also gives an audible indication, which I thought was pretty nifty when I saw it demonstrated, though I haven't given it as much use as I thought I would. <...> > > 5) An EPROM Emulator. I put this under test equipment because it's very > > useful to replace the ROMs in a system with an emulator containing a > > little test program (even something as simple as a jump to itself), and > > see what happens. I built my own, they are not complicated. > > This one is pretty high on my list, perhaps #3 or 4 when fixing a computer. > Once you get the CPU and ROM to operate, you can start doing diagnostics > from "inside" with an eprom emulator - often in conjunction with the other > tools listed above (use the CPU to generate a repeating access and then > follow it through etc.) I need to build one of these sometime. In the meantime, jamming a NOP on the data bus when practical is often useful. I troubleshot a z80-based board that way by removing one buffer chip and tack-soldering a bit of wire across the bus pins, and watched the address lines cycle through the address space. A bit more difficult with some other chips, but... > Also agree with the bench power-supply you posted in another message. > I built one with a nice variable section, as well as fixed 5V and +/-12V > outputs. Panel volt/amp meters are essential. > > Another tool I use a lot is a little analog amp meter - the old fashioned > "wedge" kind with two terminals on top - very handy from time to time. I have one that I'm waiting to put into a box, 15-0-15A. > I also have a little "clock generator" I put together which has DIP > switches to set the frequency and generates square waves - occationally it > has been very useful to clock a circult at a certain rate - often to slow > down "fast" stuff so I can see what it's doing. What sort of rates do you find most useful? Sounds to me like this would be easy enough to build. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jan 7 12:06:03 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 10:06:03 -0800 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, In-Reply-To: <247a80e54d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <247a80e54d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: At 1:20 PM +0000 1/7/06, Philip Pemberton wrote: >In message > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > 1) A multimeter. Digital or analogue, the choice is yours (I have, and >> use, both). It is rare to need to make accurate measurements in classic >> computer work, so analogue is OK, and in fact better when you want to >> 'peak' the voltage at some test point or something like that. If you go >> digital, I would certainly consider a Fluke. > >Avoid the cheap little "pocket" meters though. If it isn't a Fluke, it's >likely to be horrendously inaccurate at best. I once had a cheapie DMM that >was about 1.5V out on the 3V scale, and 5V out on the 30V scale. > >Fluke 25 and 27 ruggedised DMMs are starting to appear on the surplus market; >seems most of them are ex-military stock. They're pretty rugged, but also >rather heavy. I've got a Fluke 25 that's been dropped a fair few times, and >still works perfectly. Count me as another Fluke fan, I started with the Fluke 77 in the Navy, and as a result bought a Fluke 77 III. It's the one piece of test equipment that I use the most. I'm not sure where Richard lives, but anyone looking into Oscilloscopes or meters that lives close to a Fry's might want to consider checking them out. They're where I got my Fluke 77 III and Tek TDS-220 from, and at least the one near me seems to always have a good selection. Something else I added to my assortment of test equipment in the last year or so was something I've always wanted, though I have to question my need for it, and that's a clamp-on Amp meter. The next pieces of test equipment I'm likely to be looking at will be a Variac and a Oscillator. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cheri-post at web.de Sat Jan 7 12:32:09 2006 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 19:32:09 +0100 Subject: New 11/24, what to do first? Message-ID: <1090356230@web.de> "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" schrieb am 07.01.06 18:37:57: > > Now that my 11-23+ ("George" :) seems to be happy, it's time to > start playing with the other new acquisition, an 11/24. Maybe that > one will be "Elvis". > > It's got quite a lot of cards inside, but I haven't inventoried > them yet (this afternoon's task). Obviously I need to find out > exactly what it's populated with, and look for a user's guide and > technical manual on bitsavers. > > Keeping in mind that I know nothing about this machine yet, what > should I do as a "quick start"? I have powered it up and the fans > and power-ok lights come on, so that's a good beginning. > Charles, please try to avoid powering up machines you got if you don't know their (working) condition. Contacts or loosen screws can fly through the BA-box in case of your 11/24 during transport and can provoke short circuits while powering up. Always inspect your machine carefully, watch out for loosen parts and check the configuration of your system BEFORE aplying power to it. Otherwise, parts can be damaged even without your knowledge. Parts, you'll have difficulties to find replacements for later on. Regards, Pierre __________________________________________________________________________ Erweitern Sie FreeMail zu einem noch leistungsstarkeren E-Mail-Postfach! Mehr Infos unter http://freemail.web.de/home/landingpad/?mc=021131 From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Jan 7 13:15:34 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:15:34 -0500 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines References: Message-ID: <003d01c613be$bd22db50$0100a8c0@screamer> Any relation to the HP4118? I worked on 4118's in the USAF, but have never found any into on them on-line. A very interesting 18-bit core memory monster! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Loewen" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 4:30 PM Subject: Re: AMD bit-slice machines > On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 18:20:30 -0700, you wrote: >> Besides the Lilith Modula-2 workstation, what other computers were >> made from the AMD 29xx bit-slice architecture? > > If fading memory serves, the Hughes 5118ME mini used 2901s. The 5118ME > was (and still is, to some degree) used in Air Defense systems dating from > the 1980s, onward. No documentation to back it up, just a vague memory of > the times. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Jan 7 12:43:51 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 18:43:51 +0000 Subject: ICL1900 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 07 Jan 2006 17:12:40 GMT." <001101c613ad$908edeb0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: <200601071843.SAA04754@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Andy Holt said: > > > Interesting ICL 1900 info here: http://www.fcs.eu.com/icl1900/index.html > > Thank you for this link - seems as if more survives than I had feared ... It's amazing how quickly and completely the ICL stuff vanished, after all there were quite a number of them - they were virtually compulsory in local government, which is why we had one. I remember one of the engineers telling me about warehouses full of unwanted kit, presumably it all got scrapped. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Jan 7 13:30:00 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 19:30:00 GMT Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, In-Reply-To: <247a80e54d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <247a80e54d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <3a4aa2e54d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> And now, I'm going to post the *correct* URL... > *sigh*. 100 lines, "I will always check the URLs in my messages *before* I post them" :) Thanks to Roy Tellason for pointing out my stupid mistake... -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... Things are not as bad as they seem - they're worse From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Jan 7 14:28:19 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 15:28:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: <003d01c613be$bd22db50$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <003d01c613be$bd22db50$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Jan 2006, Bob Shannon wrote: > Any relation to the HP4118? > > I worked on 4118's in the USAF, but have never found any > into on them on-line. Possibly. I recall seeing references to an older, 3118 machine. The 5118 is a dual processor, real-time computer, and was the central processor in the JSS air defense system, connected to two HMP-1116 minicomputers which handled radar inputs, console displays, printer output and hard disk storage, and a 3rd 1116 which handles the color status monitor. The whole thing connects to a redundant system through one of the 1116s. The 5118 had a wire wrapped backplane. There's an article that mentions the 3118, 4118 and 5118: http://www.aiaa.org/content.cfm?pageid=406&gTable=mtgpaper&gID=67515 Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From charlesmorris at direcway.com Sat Jan 7 14:30:36 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 14:30:36 -0600 Subject: New 11/24, what to do first? More info. Message-ID: >Contacts or loosen screws can fly through the BA-box in case of your 11/24 > during transport and can provoke short circuits while powering up. >Always inspect your machine carefully, watch out for loosen parts and check >the configuration of your system BEFORE aplying power to it. Don't worry, Pierre, I did all that as soon as I got it home, well before plugging it in. But thanks for the reminder. I have now inventoried the cards and have the following: 1 M7133 KDF11-UA 11/24 CPU with line clock and 2 SLU 1 M7134 KT-24 Unibus map, extension to 22 bits 1 M8743 (ECC RAM, either 512 Kb or 1 Mbyte) 2 M8722 (ECC Memory either 128 Kb or 256 Kb each) 1 M8188 FPF11 floating point processor 1 M7762 RL11 disk controller RL01/02 1 M7258 LP11 printer controller 1 DSD A2130-6 <---------- (what is this? Floppy controller?) 4 M7819 DZ11-A eight RS232 ports each 1 M920 Unibus connector 1 M7297 RH11 MASSBUS Parity Control 1 M7296 RH11 MASSBUS Control & Status Registers 1 M7295 RH11A MASSBUS Bus Controller 1 M7294 RH11 MASSBUS Data Buffer and Control 3 M5904 RH11 MASSBUS Control Transceivers 1 M9300 Unibus terminator 1 M9312 Bootstrap Terminator According to the PDP11 Bus Handbook the Massbus is for transferring blocks of data at high speed (between mass storage devices like disks or tapes?) When I flip the BOOT switch the front panel RUN light comes on briefly and goes out again. Similar behavior to the 11/23+ when it enters ODT mode. There is a green LED on each MOS memory board which is lit, and a row of three (status?) LED's on the CPU, the rearmost staying lit and the other two dark. Time to RTFM I guess :) but I'll bet I can hook up a terminal to the SLU on the CPU board and have it talk to me! I wonder, since there is an RL controller card, -Charles From josefcub at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 14:33:44 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:33:44 -0600 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines In-Reply-To: References: <003d01c613be$bd22db50$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <9e2403920601071233l58cbbb01ne4b55e633ce2c419@mail.gmail.com> Slightly off-topic for where this thread is, but I just found eight AMD 2901's on my pair of SLIM-16 cards in my Eclipse MV7800. I figured it somehow relevant, and the sight of them brought the thread to mind. Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From charlesmorris at direcway.com Sat Jan 7 14:34:45 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 14:34:45 -0600 Subject: New 11/24, what to do first? More info (cont'd) Message-ID: What I was wondering (when I mistakenly hit Send) was: ...since it has an RL controller card if I hooked up my RL02 with the XXDP pack, can it be run on this 11/24 system too? thanks Charles From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Sat Jan 7 14:35:16 2006 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 12:35:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, fixed it! Another cable mistake) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060107203516.86737.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > So what would y'all recommend for logic > analyzer/oscilloscope type > tools that are useful for vintage computing (i.e. > their max > bandwidth/speed can be slower than needed for > current tech) that are > also affordable? For about $100 you can get a HP 1631 combination logic analyzer/oscilloscope that is more then adequate for vintage computing, it's what I've been using for decades! Its basically a logic analyzer with a built in 2 channel scope http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-1631D-LOGIC-ANALYZER_W0QQitemZ7574112453QQcategoryZ1504QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Jan 7 14:40:11 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 20:40:11 +0000 Subject: New 11/24, what to do first? More info. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C0272B.7000904@gjcp.net> >>Contacts or loosen screws can fly through the BA-box in case of your 11/24 >>during transport and can provoke short circuits while powering up. >>Always inspect your machine carefully, watch out for loosen parts and check >>the configuration of your system BEFORE aplying power to it. My 11/73 in an OEM Baydel case (around 5U) had all manner of loose crap inside it when I got it. I removed the two hard disks and just shook it about until all the screws, bits of broken plastic (where from I don't know) and stuff fell out. Gordon. From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Jan 7 10:36:49 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 16:36:49 +0000 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, In-Reply-To: <200601071234.29648.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <20060107032014.QUWY17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20060107204339.CECV17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > > > 5) An EPROM Emulator. I put this under test equipment because it's very > I need to build one of these sometime. In the meantime, jamming a NOP on the > data bus when practical is often useful. I troubleshot a z80-based board > that way by removing one buffer chip and tack-soldering a bit of wire across > the bus pins, and watched the address lines cycle through the address space. > A bit more difficult with some other chips, but... A not quite as handy alternative is to use one of the Dallas battery backedup RAMs - easy to adapt it to an EPROM socket, and equally easy to build a "programmer" (you just need a writable RAM socket on some piece of equipment that you can easily download to). - Like an EPROM you still gotta take it out and reprogramm it, but unlike an eprom, there is no erase time and programming is virtually instantanious. > > I also have a little "clock generator" I put together which has DIP > > switches to set the frequency and generates square waves - occationally it > > has been very useful to clock a circult at a certain rate - often to slow > > down "fast" stuff so I can see what it's doing. > > What sort of rates do you find most useful? Sounds to me like this would be > easy enough to build. It's VERY simple - basically, it's 3 LS163s two of which make up a programmable divider, and one which is an output stage. The base divider gives me from 4.0 Mhz to about 31Khz in 255 steps, and the output stage gives me /1 /2 /4 and /8 from that output - so it can go down to about 4 khz. I originally built it to go with "PCLA", a PC based logic analyser that I wrote - captures 13 channels directly from the parallel port, however it can only go to about a 500khz sample rate (depending on the PC) - which is basically as fast as you can do back to back reads of the parallel port Too slow for most stuff, but by using the clock generator, I could slow a lot of stuff to be easily within it's range. Obviously there are limitations which is why I eventually replaced it with a "real" LA - but the clock generator has proven handy on other occations - but they are relatively few and far between. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Jan 7 15:23:45 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 16:23:45 -0500 Subject: AMD bit-slice machines References: <003d01c613be$bd22db50$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <008101c613d0$a583ee50$0100a8c0@screamer> Yes, these are clearly relatives! I worked on a combat air traffic control system, run by a 4118. It was a single CPU 18-bit machine, but with dedicated coprocessors for radar video processing and a vector display system for radar consoles. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Loewen" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2006 3:28 PM Subject: Re: AMD bit-slice machines > On Sat, 7 Jan 2006, Bob Shannon wrote: > >> Any relation to the HP4118? >> >> I worked on 4118's in the USAF, but have never found any >> into on them on-line. > > Possibly. I recall seeing references to an older, 3118 machine. The > 5118 is a dual processor, real-time computer, and was the central > processor in the JSS air defense system, connected to two HMP-1116 > minicomputers which handled radar inputs, console displays, printer output > and hard disk storage, and a 3rd 1116 which handles the color status > monitor. The whole thing connects to a redundant system through one of > the 1116s. The 5118 had a wire wrapped backplane. > > There's an article that mentions the 3118, 4118 and 5118: > > http://www.aiaa.org/content.cfm?pageid=406&gTable=mtgpaper&gID=67515 > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Sat Jan 7 15:45:45 2006 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 21:45:45 -0000 Subject: ICL1900 In-Reply-To: <200601071843.SAA04754@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <000801c613d3$b6f84930$655b2c0a@w2kdell> > It's amazing how quickly and completely the ICL stuff vanished, after all > there were quite a number of them - they were virtually compulsory in > local government, which is why we had one. > Unfortunately, when we scrapped out two 1905Es to install the Honeywell Level 66*, all the software tapes were thrown away. Particularly galling now is that these included source tapes for George (I & II) and Maximop; plus Exec tapes (E6RM) with listings also GIN5 and various engineers assemblers**. Many of us, however, kept manuals as souvenirs and so the only real regrets about missing ones there are the Programmers Reference Manual (only a photocopy, anyhow, but not easy to acquire) and most of the engineering documents (we had our own engineers ... and even did our own Exec mods - and even a couple of minor hardware mods). * oddly enough, it seems even harder to find anything related to GCOS 3 than the 1900. ** Application programmer thought PLAN was the assembler for the 1900; Systems programmers (thought they) knew that the real assembler was GIN5; The Engineers and Exec maintainers, however, had about 3 different mysterious (and extremely crude***) assemblers ... one was #NSBL, cannot remeber the name of the others *** so crude, in fact, that they used numeric (octal) opcodes rather than nmemonics - but then those were more meaningful to the people who probably knew the microcode by heart :-) Andy From awt at io.com Sat Jan 7 16:07:26 2006 From: awt at io.com (Wayne Talbot) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 16:07:26 -0600 Subject: Basic Language Star Trek Program In-Reply-To: <200601071800.k07I0bt7019592@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601071800.k07I0bt7019592@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43C03B9E.9020103@io.com> >Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 13:47:09 -0700 >From: Richard >Subject: Re: basic language startrek program >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Message-ID: > > >In article <43BED60D.3010607 at PACBELL.NET>, > BOB LAAG writes: > > > >>Looking for info or the origin of a paper tape program in basic that >>plays a startrek game with quadrants, stars, klingons, etc... I got it >>back in the 70's from some military guys and it ran on my old computer >>mainframe stuff... Just wondering if anyone recognizes this or wants >>the file??? >> >> > >This sounds very much like the star trek game that was on the HP3000 >I used at the University of Delaware circa 1978/1979. > >Did it print out your quadrant map with a little ASCII graphic? > > The basic program was in the People's Computer Company Magazine in the late 70's. You could type it in and run it in Tiny Basic. It took up about 2k memory. I ran it using PaloAlto Tiny Basic (which was only 2k itself). I will see if I can find my copy of the magazine if you are willing to type it in. In the meantime, if anyone has an electronic version, let everybody know. From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 7 15:57:33 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 14:57:33 -0700 Subject: shipping for monitors In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 07 Jan 2006 00:46:10 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > However, for something like a CRT mounting, I'd not trust that. I'd cut > off the original pillars, and smooth the inside of the case flat. Then > make new metal pillars, drill and tap them along the axis, and fix them > in place with screws from the outside. Conenct them to mains earth (or > similar), just in case something breaks down and makes the screwheads live. Umm... NO WAY would I do that as it would completely destroy the original look of the unit, making it rather pointless to collect. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sat Jan 7 16:25:56 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 23:25:56 +0100 Subject: New 11/24, what to do first? More info (cont'd) Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE228D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Yes, you can Charles. The RL11 controller is for the RL01 and the RL02, and the RL11 can be installed in any UNIBUS machine. (Ok, you must have a hex slot available). Look if you have XXDP for the 11/24 on your pack. As the CPU has 2 ports, I guess that one will be configured for the console (guessing, because I do not have a /24. Still missing that one in my UNIBUS-based collection). BTW, my RL02's (both) happily boot RT11, after I swapped the RL11 from the attick! I can even boot while the RL01 and both RL02's are in the chain, but I knew that you can mix these types of drives. However, the RL01 has a READY lamp that is always on, it does not interfere with the other drives ... I will be looking at some repair work in a few weeks or so. First, I want to get my RK07's also operational on the 11/34, and even before that, I will make a few copies of my dearly treasured RT11 and XXDP RL02 packs !! :-) - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Charles Verzonden: za 07-01-2006 21:34 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: New 11/24, what to do first? More info (cont'd) What I was wondering (when I mistakenly hit Send) was: ...since it has an RL controller card if I hooked up my RL02 with the XXDP pack, can it be run on this 11/24 system too? thanks Charles This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 7 13:30:22 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 19:30:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, In-Reply-To: <200601062106280904.2310C9F2@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 6, 6 09:06:28 pm Message-ID: > > On 1/7/2006 at 4:35 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >> attempting to find an HP 'Advanced Logic Probe' > >> aka LogicDart. It's a handheld thing that acts as a digital voltmeter, > >> frequency meter, logic probe and 3-channel logic analyser. A word of > >> warning, if you ever use one of these you will be 'hooked'.... > > Was that the little hand-held logic analyzer that Agilent came out with and > then, almost at the same time, discontinued? It looked like a very handly That's the one... > little gizmo. Why did HP/Agilent drop them? I've seen some inexpensive Oh, because it was a product that fulfilled a real need and provided lasting value :-). As you preobably know, that statement used to be included in the HP corporate objectives, but it doesn't really fit in with a company that sells cheap printers :-) (What, cynical, me?) I have no idea why Agilent didn't carry on making them. It certainly is a very handy instrument for a lot of digital troubleshooting. I guess it's hard to know who it was aimed at. It was rather too expensive for most hobbyists (although several of my friends have bought them), not powerful enough for testing a new ASIC, say, and these days it's not the done thing to make measurements and think before replacing parts, so I guess service engineers don't need them. And there aren't that many classic computer enthusiasts around. > USB logic analyzers (USB pods, I think) that might be worthwhile having. Maybe. But then you need to cart around a computer to link them to. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 7 13:11:10 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 19:11:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, In-Reply-To: <20060107032014.QUWY17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jan 6, 6 11:13:25 pm Message-ID: > > A Very useful feature is a continuity buzzer, a beeper that sounds if the > > resistance between the probes is less than a certain, fixed, value. But > > make sure it repsonds quickly (and doesn't, for example, take the time > > for the autoranging system to work and then for the instrument to take a > > couple of samples). You will want, quite often, to clip one probe onto, > > say, a wire at one end of a cable, and run the other probe down the pins > > at the other end. You don't want to have to stop and wait on each pin. > > #1 tool, and I agree completely on fluke/quality. Continuity buzzer is essential, > and I find a LOT of the cheaper meters (even the fixed range ones) take too > long detect continuity - basically, they do it by taking a measurement and only Yes. It's interesting that the design spec for the HP LogicDart specified a repsonse time for the continuity beeper (I have an idea it was a few ms), so you could use it i n the way I described. HP engineers found a 'slow' continuity tester to be very irritating too. > after it has done it's "digital approximation" does it figure out the connection > is below 'x' ohms. Thats a related problem - I find the cheaper meters are fixed > at 200-500 ohms as being "continuity". Sometimes you need to know that it's I am not sure what my Fluke uses as the threshold, it's less than that, I think, but still fixed. A variable setting would be very useful. For example, at the moment, I am looking at a PCB which has series termination resistors of 220 Ohms in series with some of the signals. It's SMD, components on both sides, and 80 pin PQFP chips. Tracing out signals would be a lot easier if I could take 220 Ohms to be 'continuity', and then later figure out where the termination resistors are. At this point I just want to know that a given pin goes to the CPU Wr/ line, not worrying about a series resistor. > zero (or almost so), and sometimes you want to know that higher value paths > exist - thats why I built a separate continuity buzzer with very low in-circuit > current, and an adjustable threshold. I should get round to making something like that.... > > Hold function is handy, so you can take a tricky measurement without having > to take your eyes off it, but otherwise the basics are all that you need. A freind of mine had a nasty problem with a cheap DMM. The range switch wenter intermittant (without him realising it), and it claimed the input voltage was 0, when in fact it was full mains (he was working on some mains wiring, and wanted to check it was dead. Yes, I know the _correct_ procedure is to check with it live, check again when you've isolated it, then check the meter on a seperate live source to guard against this, but how many people do that?). After being thrown across the room by the shock, he went out and bought a Fluke. They're cheaper than funerals :-). He could only afford the cheapest model, which didn't even have current ranges, but as he said, current is the least-often measured quantity. Voltage and resistance the ranges I (and most people I know) use all the time. > > > > 2) A logic probe. HP have made some nice ones over the years (I've seen > > them on E-overpay from time to time). Actually, a cheap one (Radio Shack > > used to sell them) is all you need for most work. This is very useful for > > fioding a signal that's stuck high, or something like that. If you are a > > rich enthusiast, consider attempting to find an HP 'Advanced Logic Probe' > > aka LogicDart. It's a handheld thing that acts as a digital voltmeter, > > frequency meter, logic probe and 3-channel logic analyser. A word of > > warning, if you ever use one of these you will be 'hooked'.... > > Disagree on the cheaper ones - Tried the RS one - it doesn't represent a > valid TTL input (it is supposedly switchable for TTL/CMOS) but don't > believe that you are actually close to representative of a real input. I've never found this to be a real problem. If you're seriously worried about the voltages, then use the 'scope. The logic probe is a useful instrument to look for sillies, like a data pin shorted to ground or something. It'll also tell you if a memory chip is ever being enabled, if the clocks are running, and so on It;'s not common for a chip to fail in a way that it gives illegal output voltagess, although I have had 74Hxxx parts do this. If you know what your instrument is doing, you can do a lot with a cheap logic probe. Most logic analysers have one threshold. Anything over it is a '1', anything under it is a '0'. The LpgicDart is good in that it has 0, 1, illegal states for the inputs, you set 2 thresholds (it has pre-set ones for TTL, 5V CMOS, 3.3V CMOS, ECL). > These days I tend to use the scope when I need a logic probe. With a I use a 'scope a lot less than I should, mainly because the 555 is rather hard to move around. It's a matter of taking the problem to the 'scope rather than the reverse. > > 4) A logic analyser. Tektronix made a reasonable one as a plug-in for the > > 7000-series 'scopes. HP and Gould also made analysers, either stand-alone > > or as plug-ins for 'scopes. > > > > I would say at least 50MHz and preferably 100MHz is fine for classic > > computers. 16 channels is enough (you can get away with fewer if you have > > to). Make sure you get the probes/pods with the instrument, they are > > _hell_ to find on their own and often get lost/separated from the unit. > > The ability to transfer the captured data to another computer for more > > analysis (often via an RS232 or GPIB port) is very useful. > > Don't know where to put it on my "list" but it's a ways down. Most repairs I think it's what you're used to using. I prefer the analyser, since I can look at many signals (an entire microcode address bus, for example) at once. The triggering on aq good analyser is more versatile too. But if you prefer the 'scope, use it.. > can be figured out quicker by other means, but when required, it can be > exceptionally handy. Whatever you pick, put some time into learning it's > capabilities as there is a lot you can do with these things. Absolutely. Read the manual (old HP and Tek came with very fine manuals that are well worth reading), play with the instrument. Use it on stuff where you know what you should be seeing. Misuse it too. I don't mean applying the mains to the input of the logic analyser. I mean things like on a DSO, applying a signal of a higher frequency than it claims to handle. What does it do. If it aliases it down in to the passband, beware. It'll do this sometime 'for real' and you will get confused (yes, I have seen a DSO that does this sort of nasty, no I wouldn't want to use it!). > Also agree with the bench power-supply you posted in another message. > I built one with a nice variable section, as well as fixed 5V and +/-12V > outputs. Panel volt/amp meters are essential. Yep. Mine is the Velleman kit one. 30V, 8A continuous (10A for 20 minutes). It's a really old-fasioned design, using 723 regulator chips and 5 trnasiostor in parallel (with emitter resistors, of course), 7107s (or do I mean 7106s, the one that drives LEDs) for the voltmeter and ammeter. But it does the job. I als have a homebrew 5V, 1A supply (useful to power a few TTL chips when I have the larger supply in use for, say, running the motors in whatever I'm working on) and a Heathkit 50V, 1A one that sometimes gets pressed into service. > Course in our line of work, the "light bulb box" and Variac rate pretty high > on the bench tool list too! Ah yes... The former to save expensive blow-ups when rebuilding SMPSUs, amongst other things... And of course dummy load resistors/bulbs for testing PSUs before connecting the logic board to them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 7 13:16:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 19:16:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, In-Reply-To: <5fcur1dapl7gus3cjkvnf9t3hq2n28incu@4ax.com> from "Charles" at Jan 6, 6 09:19:29 pm Message-ID: > > True, but when you need it you REALLY need it. Like trying to find > a single-event write fault in the RL02 "circular" logic... no way > to do it with my 545 scope! If the event can be made to 'occur to order' -- say you can apply a signal to reset/trigger things, then you can, if you have a delayed timebase (The 545 does IIRC), repeatedly trigger the circuit-under-test from an external clock source, trigger the 'scope from that too (external trigger intput on the 'scope), and use the delay controls to 'scrol through' the signals on the circuit under test. A friend of mine uses that to see what a microprocessor is doing -- continually reset it at about 100Hx, and look at the bus signals with a 'scope. > A Tek 7D01 is an old but simple logic analyzer plugin (16 bit, 10 > ns sample rate) and can be inserted into several 7000 series > scopes when you're not using the vertical and timebase plugins. > It's perfect for debugging discrete logic. For microprocessor work > I'd prefer a 1240. There are obviously much better analyzers > available but for the money those two are pretty decent IMHO. > > Again, make sure to get the pods. The 7D01 plugin can often be had > for $10 or less but the two pods and leads/clips can be several > times more expensive... Mnay older analysers, including the &D01 and the Gould K100D, have differential ECL inputs on the pod connector. If you get one cheap/given, you can make up a kludge using TTL-ECL converters (10124 IIRC) to feed TTL signals into the analyser. It probably won't go a full speed, the thresholds will be uncertain, but it will let you grab, say, the address bus of your old 8 bit micro. A lot better than nothing It is clearly better to get the right pods. -tony From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sat Jan 7 16:28:14 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 23:28:14 +0100 Subject: New 11/24, what to do first? More info. Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE228E@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hit the Send button too fast. That is a nice complete machine you have, Charles. I remember paying just UK ?300 for only that RH11. Start looking for a MASSBUS tape drive, or disk drive, ** if you have plenty room and power **. The MASSBUS stuff is not for the weak persons. All my MASSBUS stuff is heavy, both in weight and in power consumption! MASSBUS cables are approx. 30 - 40 mm thick ... I have some MASSBUS stuff in the 11/70 page on my site. As said, "I know notting" about the 11/24. - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Charles Verzonden: za 07-01-2006 21:30 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: New 11/24, what to do first? More info. >Contacts or loosen screws can fly through the BA-box in case of your 11/24 > during transport and can provoke short circuits while powering up. >Always inspect your machine carefully, watch out for loosen parts and check >the configuration of your system BEFORE aplying power to it. Don't worry, Pierre, I did all that as soon as I got it home, well before plugging it in. But thanks for the reminder. I have now inventoried the cards and have the following: 1 M7133 KDF11-UA 11/24 CPU with line clock and 2 SLU 1 M7134 KT-24 Unibus map, extension to 22 bits 1 M8743 (ECC RAM, either 512 Kb or 1 Mbyte) 2 M8722 (ECC Memory either 128 Kb or 256 Kb each) 1 M8188 FPF11 floating point processor 1 M7762 RL11 disk controller RL01/02 1 M7258 LP11 printer controller 1 DSD A2130-6 <---------- (what is this? Floppy controller?) 4 M7819 DZ11-A eight RS232 ports each 1 M920 Unibus connector 1 M7297 RH11 MASSBUS Parity Control 1 M7296 RH11 MASSBUS Control & Status Registers 1 M7295 RH11A MASSBUS Bus Controller 1 M7294 RH11 MASSBUS Data Buffer and Control 3 M5904 RH11 MASSBUS Control Transceivers 1 M9300 Unibus terminator 1 M9312 Bootstrap Terminator According to the PDP11 Bus Handbook the Massbus is for transferring blocks of data at high speed (between mass storage devices like disks or tapes?) When I flip the BOOT switch the front panel RUN light comes on briefly and goes out again. Similar behavior to the 11/23+ when it enters ODT mode. There is a green LED on each MOS memory board which is lit, and a row of three (status?) LED's on the CPU, the rearmost staying lit and the other two dark. Time to RTFM I guess :) but I'll bet I can hook up a terminal to the SLU on the CPU board and have it talk to me! I wonder, since there is an RL controller card, -Charles This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 7 16:38:31 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 22:38:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: shipping for monitors In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 7, 6 02:57:33 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > However, for something like a CRT mounting, I'd not trust that. I'd cut > > off the original pillars, and smooth the inside of the case flat. Then > > make new metal pillars, drill and tap them along the axis, and fix them > > in place with screws from the outside. Conenct them to mains earth (or > > similar), just in case something breaks down and makes the screwheads live. > > Umm... NO WAY would I do that as it would completely destroy the > original look of the unit, making it rather pointless to collect. Come again? The only change to the outside appearance is 4 screwheads on the CRT bezel. Hardly a big change. A CRT breaking loose and then breaking would do a lot more damage to the appearance and originallity of the unit. And I am wondering why it's pointless to collect stuff which doesn't _look_ origianl. Who cares what it looks like? These are computers and peripherals, not fine art. What's important to me is what it does, and how it does it. Something that's not changed by re-mounting a CRT. -tony From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sat Jan 7 16:38:36 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 23:38:36 +0100 Subject: New 11/24, what to do first? More info. Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE228F@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Oops, correction. The MASSBUS stuff is under "peripherals -> disk -> RM03". - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From charlesmorris at direcway.com Sat Jan 7 17:13:36 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 17:13:36 -0600 Subject: KDF11-YA, where can I find switch settings? Message-ID: <5hi0s192kads9tq7r29gaud2f8ghrnlaqs@4ax.com> Unfortunately the 11/24 switch settings (in the bitsavers copy of the PDP 11/24 System Technical Manual) don't match the layout on my M7133 CPU. They are for the KDF11-UA (revisions A-D) and upon closer inspection mine is a KDF11-YA ( which is the last Rev. E). My board has three DIPswitch packs, not two, and they are not set to anything that the manual says should give the 9600 baud string, which is what my scope sees coming out of the console port. Does anyone have the correct switch settings? thanks Charles From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 7 17:15:12 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 16:15:12 -0700 Subject: shipping for monitors In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 07 Jan 2006 22:38:31 +0000. Message-ID: There's a different between a repair and a mangling. Repairs I'm willing to do. If I was going to mangle the equipment, I wouldn't bother buying it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Jan 7 13:08:00 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 19:08:00 +0000 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, In-Reply-To: References: <20060107032014.QUWY17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jan 6, 6 11:13:25 pm Message-ID: <20060107231519.DVVF17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > A freind of mine had a nasty problem with a cheap DMM. The range switch > wenter intermittant (without him realising it), and it claimed the input > voltage was 0, when in fact it was full mains (he was working on some > mains wiring, and wanted to check it was dead. Yes, I know the _correct_ > procedure is to check with it live, check again when you've isolated it, > then check the meter on a seperate live source to guard against this, but > how many people do that?). After being thrown across the room by the > shock, he went out and bought a Fluke. They're cheaper than funerals :-). > He could only afford the cheapest model, which didn't even have current > ranges, but as he said, current is the least-often measured quantity. > Voltage and resistance the ranges I (and most people I know) use all the > time. I would never trust a single reading from a single instrument to tell me it's safe to get "hands on" with mains - If you happened to pop the meter fuse last time you were using it and knocked off before you realized it (I've done this) it gives you a nice zero reading - I want to at least see it reading ON, then disappear when I switch it off, and even then I remain cautious. NEVER trust a zero reading until you have seen a "normal" reading in the same session. Always had a healthy respect for mains - even the 120v variety we get over here - I seem to be somewhat lower "impedance" than most - in my younger days I measured less then 1k from fingers of one hand to the fingers of the other hand - guys used to laugh at me in the EE lab testing leds on a 12v supply - Grab one rail in one hand, led in the other and touch the free leg to the other rail - I could feel it too! - In retrospect probably not one of the smartest techniques I ever came up with. Once I passed about 30 I started increasing in resistance though... Still wouldn't want to grab a handful of mains however... > > Disagree on the cheaper ones - Tried the RS one - it doesn't represent a > > valid TTL input (it is supposedly switchable for TTL/CMOS) but don't > > believe that you are actually close to representative of a real input. > > I've never found this to be a real problem. If you're seriously worried > about the voltages, then use the 'scope. The logic probe is a useful > instrument to look for sillies, like a data pin shorted to ground or > something. It'll also tell you if a memory chip is ever being enabled, if > the clocks are running, and so on > > It;'s not common for a chip to fail in a way that it gives illegal output > voltagess, although I have had 74Hxxx parts do this. In one of my early experiences with the RS probe, I tracked a signal which the probe happily told me was pulsing just like it should. But it was a bad output and not changing state as far as TTL was concerned - Lost a but of time on that one and never quite trusted the probe since. Also - not just outputs can cause out-of-spec signals. Bad loading, failed inputs etc. can also throw things off - but you may not see it with a probe. > Most logic analysers have one threshold. Anything over it is a '1', > anything under it is a '0'. The LpgicDart is good in that it has 0, 1, > illegal states for the inputs, you set 2 thresholds (it has pre-set ones > for TTL, 5V CMOS, 3.3V CMOS, ECL). One of the main reasons I like the scope - you always get to see what you are actually measuring. There's been plenty of times I've immediately said "that doesn't look right" ... when a probe would have simply shown a pulse. > I think it's what you're used to using. I prefer the analyser, since I > can look at many signals (an entire microcode address bus, for example) > at once. The triggering on aq good analyser is more versatile too. But if > you prefer the 'scope, use it.. This is probably a better argument for either case than any - at least "begin" with what you are most used to. If I were debugging a microcoded CPU implementation and the scope failed to reveal obvious problems (missing selects, bad signals etc.) the LA wouldn't be far down my list of things to do next. > Absolutely. Read the manual (old HP and Tek came with very fine manuals > that are well worth reading), play with the instrument. Use it on stuff > where you know what you should be seeing. Misuse it too. I don't mean > applying the mains to the input of the logic analyser. I mean things like > on a DSO, applying a signal of a higher frequency than it claims to > handle. What does it do. If it aliases it down in to the passband, > beware. It'll do this sometime 'for real' and you will get confused (yes, > I have seen a DSO that does this sort of nasty, no I wouldn't want to use > it!). An a similar theme (and I'm surprised how many "engineers" I have had to have this discussion with) - It doesn't make a lot of sense to be doing these kinds of measurements if you don't know what to expect. Know what is "reasonable" for the measurements you are taking. To tie this in with your point above - you need to know that the signal you are measuring will be within the range of your tools before you can trust the readings - and you should know what to expect to a LOT narrower range then "DC to 200Mhz". Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 7 18:38:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 00:38:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, In-Reply-To: <20060107231519.DVVF17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jan 7, 6 07:08:00 pm Message-ID: > I would never trust a single reading from a single instrument to tell me it's Nor would I, actually. > safe to get "hands on" with mains - If you happened to pop the meter fuse > last time you were using it and knocked off before you realized it (I've done > this) it gives you a nice zero reading - I want to at least see it reading ON, > then disappear when I switch it off, and even then I remain cautious. The 'correct' procedure for high voltages (or so I am told) is to measure the voltage with the circuit live (and make sure you get a reading), then turn off the power/pull the fuse and check again (make sure you get zero), and then to check the meter again on a similar high voltage source to make sure you get a reading there (just in case the meter decides to fail at the wrong moment). Even then, with mains, I'd touch it with the back of my hand first, so if it is still live it'll throw me off (I hope). Incidetnally, on most DMMs (including my Fluke), the fuse is for the current ranges only. The voltage and resistance ranges work fine with the fuse blown. But of course there are plenty of other faults that can cause a zero reading with a voltage on the input. Heck, even test leads can go open-circuit. > > An a similar theme (and I'm surprised how many "engineers" I have had to > have this discussion with) - It doesn't make a lot of sense to be doing these > kinds of measurements if you don't know what to expect. Know what is Something I was taught early on (in a different context, but it applies to electronics too). 'It is much easier to make measurements than to know what you are measuring'. With most 'socpes, if you touch the probe on a point in your circuit and twiddle the knobs you will get _some kind of trace_. It may well mot be any use in actually tracking down the fault, though. It may not even be a true representation of the signal at that point. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 18:39:41 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 13:39:41 +1300 Subject: New 11/24, what to do first? More info. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/8/06, Charles wrote: > I have now inventoried the cards and have the following: > > 1 DSD A2130-6 <---------- (what is this? Floppy controller?) Yes... for a 3rd party floppy drive. I don't recognize the "A2130" part number, but the subsystems have names like "DSD-440" etc. Check your backplane for NPR wires, especially if you have any empty slots. As we rehash here in the list from time to time, you have to have a complete grant chain both for interrupts and for DMA in a Unibus box for it to boot and run properly. You might have to lay hands on some grant cards if you have empty slots. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 7 18:42:59 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 00:42:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: shipping for monitors In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 7, 6 04:15:12 pm Message-ID: > > > There's a different between a repair and a mangling. Repairs I'm > willing to do. If I was going to mangle the equipment, I wouldn't > bother buying it. So epoxy on the inside (to attempt to fix the old posts back in place) is OK, but 4 screwheads on the outside is not? Neither are 'original'. I suppose what you should do is to pay megabux to have a mould made up and make a complet3e new front panel. Alas few, if any, can afford that :-). To me 'mangling' would be ripping out the insides and replacing them with, say, a PC + VGA monitor or something. What would you do if an IC failed and you couldn't get the exact same replacement? Would you be happy to dead-bug an IC in place? What about if some external part, like a switch, broke? Would you use one of a different styling that was electrically equivalent? And I know I've bought stuff with the express purpose of modifying it, or even using it for spares (old ISA cards with useful chips in sockets, for example) -tony From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Sat Jan 7 18:45:31 2006 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 00:45:31 +0000 Subject: Paging Peter Pachla Message-ID: <11c909eb0601071645i6f9f87c5v@mail.gmail.com> Peter, Can you please contact me off list regarding your DEC kit. I suspect my direct mails may be failing to reach you. Thanks, Pete -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From oldcomp at cox.net Sat Jan 7 21:33:22 2006 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan K. Blackburn) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 20:33:22 -0700 Subject: Basic Language Star Trek Program In-Reply-To: <43C03B9E.9020103@io.com> References: <200601071800.k07I0bt7019592@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43C03B9E.9020103@io.com> Message-ID: <43C08802.1000509@cox.net> Wayne Talbot wrote: > In the meantime, if anyone has an electronic version, let everybody know. There are some MS BASICA versions in my archive at: http://www.bytecollector.com/archive/other/games/basic_files/ One of them from 101 BASIC Games book, IIRC, STRTREK1.BAS. -Bryan From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 7 21:35:53 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 20:35:53 -0700 Subject: Grant chain (was: New 11/24, what to do first? More info.) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 08 Jan 2006 13:39:41 +1300. Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > Check your backplane for NPR wires, especially if you have any empty > slots. As we rehash here in the list from time to time, you have to > have a complete grant chain both for interrupts and for DMA in a > Unibus box for it to boot and run properly. > > You might have to lay hands on some grant cards if you have empty slots. I have seen grant cards on ebay but I'm not exactly sure what purpose they serve. Can someone enlighten me? Also, what are "NPR wires"? Surely nothing to do with National Public Radio :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 7 21:42:29 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 20:42:29 -0700 Subject: shipping for monitors In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 08 Jan 2006 00:42:59 +0000. Message-ID: I'm simply saying something akin to "I don't like pistachio ice cream." and you seem to be replying as if you're going to convince me that I *must* like pistachio ice cream. You can do whatever you want with stuff you acquire. That doesn't compel me to do what you want with stuff that I acquire. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From James at jdfogg.com Sat Jan 7 23:32:45 2006 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 00:32:45 -0500 Subject: New 11/24, what to do first? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B55@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Now that my 11-23+ ("George" :) seems to be happy, it's time > to start playing with the other new acquisition, an 11/24. > Maybe that one will be "Elvis". The Elvis joke is a Sun Microsystems thing. When pinging under Solaris the reply is formatted to say is alive. Therefore, it will say "elvis is alive". From fernande at internet1.net Sat Jan 7 23:31:43 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 00:31:43 -0500 Subject: shipping for monitors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C0A3BF.9010507@internet1.net> Tony Duell wrote: > However, for something like a CRT mounting, I'd not trust that. I'd cut > off the original pillars, and smooth the inside of the case flat. Then > make new metal pillars, drill and tap them along the axis, and fix them > in place with screws from the outside. Conenct them to mains earth (or > similar), just in case something breaks down and makes the screwheads live. I think I'd go with fixing the original mounts before I tried the above suggestion. The above would require pretty good machine work, and after is all said and done would probably be more delicate. Metal pillars would transmit all shock directly to the outside plastic of the case, potentially cracking it or punching a hole through it. The plastic pillar would likely be tapered, so they could be wider at the base, and if they break again, it would likely still be an internal break again, not an external one. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 8 00:23:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 22:23:54 -0800 Subject: shipping for monitors In-Reply-To: <43C0A3BF.9010507@internet1.net> References: <43C0A3BF.9010507@internet1.net> Message-ID: <200601072223540069.287E04A9@10.0.0.252> If this is made of lthe usual ABS or acrylic plastics, it's going to get weak and brittle with age. On the other hand, if you're dealing with high-density structural foam, you're somewhat better off, as the stuff is pretty stable, but harder to repair. Bottom line, is that if there's a volatile component to the plastic, it's far weaker now than it was when it was new. Any repair that you make runs the risk of failure in another part of the structure. While many repairs will be fine for stationary operation, they may not be robust enough to survive the rigors of shipping. You may want to consider removing the heavier parts of the unit and packaging them separately for reassembly at the destination. Another option that hasn't been mentioned is fiberglass cloth and acrylic resin as reinforcement. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jan 8 03:33:20 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 03:33:20 -0600 Subject: Need SCO UNIX V/386 disk Message-ID: <43C0DC60.30306@mdrconsult.com> I tried to install SCO UNIX System V/386 3.2.0 tomight, and found that my N3 install diskette is damaged. This is on 96dshd media. If anybody has one they could image I'd be most grateful. Doc From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Jan 8 02:59:41 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 08:59:41 +0000 Subject: ICL1900 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 07 Jan 2006 21:45:45 GMT." <000801c613d3$b6f84930$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: <200601080859.IAA06993@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Andy Holt said: [RE: ICL 1900] > Many of us, however, kept manuals as souvenirs The only ICL souvenir I have is a dark red 4-ring binder that once contained a GE termiprinter maintenance manual (manual long gone unfortunately). I I found it in a filing cabinet behind my desk years after the computer went. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Sun Jan 8 06:24:44 2006 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 01:24:44 +1300 Subject: ICL1900 References: <200601080859.IAA06993@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <092601c6144e$82231660$7900a8c0@athlon1200> > The only ICL souvenir I have is a dark red 4-ring binder that once > contained > a GE termiprinter maintenance manual (manual long gone > unfortunately). > I I found it in a filing cabinet behind my desk years after the > computer > went. > > -- > Cheers, > Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com > Snap! Except my binder still has the Termiprinter manual in it. DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.15/223 - Release Date: 6/01/2006 From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Jan 8 03:51:05 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 09:51:05 +0000 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, In-Reply-To: References: <20060107231519.DVVF17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jan 7, 6 07:08:00 pm Message-ID: <20060108135756.NMAT17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Incidetnally, on most DMMs (including my Fluke), the fuse is for the > current ranges only. The voltage and resistance ranges work fine with the > fuse blown. But of course there are plenty of other faults that can cause > a zero reading with a voltage on the input. Heck, even test leads can go > open-circuit. Never assume this is the case - I've got a couple of rat-shack DMMs where the fuse is simply in the positive meter lead - pop it and you lose all functionality. I never trust a meter to be working until I see it read something I expect (I think this comes from the early days when all I had was a rat-shack meter which used to get dirty contacts causing failures from time to time). First thing I do when "entering" equipment is measure the power supply. This both tells me that the supply is "reasonable" and that my meter is working (granted a double-failure could occur which happens to give me a incorrect by reasonable reading, however this is not all that likely so I usually don't get a second optinion unless I have cause to suspect the PS). At the beginning of a session measuring resistance, I touch the probes together to be sure "zero is zero" - just habits I have gotten into, but they have turned up problems on more than one occation. > Something I was taught early on (in a different context, but it applies > to electronics too). 'It is much easier to make measurements than to know > what you are measuring'. With most 'socpes, if you touch the probe on a > point in your circuit and twiddle the knobs you will get _some kind of > trace_. It may well mot be any use in actually tracking down the fault, > though. It may not even be a true representation of the signal at that point. Not sure if this is a statement for or against, but my point is that by knowing what you are looking for, you have a better idea of "if it looks right" or not. Many times I found trouble because a signal was present but didn't match what I expected. And lots of times I investigated and had a "eureka" moment when I realized the circuit wasn't supposed to work quite the way I had thought, but even then I learned something I needed to know. Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jan 8 09:26:11 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 15:26:11 GMT Subject: New 11/24, what to do first? More info (cont'd) In-Reply-To: Charles "New 11/24, what to do first? More info (cont'd)" (Jan 7, 14:34) References: Message-ID: <10601081526.ZM8372@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 7 2006, 14:34, Charles wrote: > What I was wondering (when I mistakenly hit Send) was: > > ...since it has an RL controller card if I hooked up my RL02 with > the XXDP pack, can it be run on this 11/24 system too? Yes, the RL11, RLV11, and RLV12 will all handle both RL01 and RL02 drives. XXDP won't care whether you boot it on a QBus or a Unibus system, though all but the oldest versions can tell the difference. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jan 8 09:36:07 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 15:36:07 GMT Subject: Basic Language Star Trek Program In-Reply-To: Wayne Talbot "Re: Basic Language Star Trek Program" (Jan 7, 16:07) References: <200601071800.k07I0bt7019592@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43C03B9E.9020103@io.com> Message-ID: <10601081536.ZM8384@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 7 2006, 16:07, Wayne Talbot wrote: > The basic program was in the People's Computer Company Magazine in the > late 70's. > You could type it in and run it in Tiny Basic. It took up about 2k memory. > I ran it using PaloAlto Tiny Basic (which was only 2k itself). Actually the tiny versions for PATB are about 6K. The first, by Dr. Li Chen Wang, who wrote PATB itself, was published in the Peoples Computer Company journal in the summer of 1976; it's an adaptation of Lynn Cochran's version for the Altair 8800. That, and an slightly smaller version which Bruce Sherry adapted from the PCC listing, are both on my webpage, along with lots of other versions. http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/startrek/ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From fernande at internet1.net Sun Jan 8 13:20:00 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 14:20:00 -0500 Subject: shipping for monitors In-Reply-To: <200601072223540069.287E04A9@10.0.0.252> References: <43C0A3BF.9010507@internet1.net> <200601072223540069.287E04A9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43C165E0.1010004@internet1.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If this is made of lthe usual ABS or acrylic plastics, it's going to get > weak and brittle with age. On the other hand, if you're dealing with > high-density structural foam, you're somewhat better off, as the stuff is > pretty stable, but harder to repair. Any idea what IBM used in the IBM PS/2 Model 80, and many of the older RS/6000's? It's some kind of plastic, but not ABS. It's quite fibrous looking on the inside. It seems to be very strong. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Sun Jan 8 14:00:30 2006 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 21:00:30 +0100 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - In-Reply-To: <20060107115527.2a4ab634.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200601062159.QAA24795@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43BFEC62.6090106@ais.fraunhofer.de> <20060107115527.2a4ab634.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43C16F5E.7050800@ais.fraunhofer.de> Scott Stevens wrote: >On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 17:29:22 +0100 >Holger Veit wrote: > >Concerning that playstation game which I don't know, I'd rather >interpret that as advertising bullshit. One could simply count the >number of people involved in programming the core and estimate how many >lines of assembly one would have needed to write. If the result were >even in the 10**5..6 range or even higher, I'd consider this unrealistic >unless one speaks of excessive code duplication. Some code like the OS/2 >kernel is about 2 thirds of assembly code, the rest is 16 bit or 32 bit >C, but this is about 800K executable size - not really millions of LOC. > > > > >An 800k executable can be the result of millions of lines of >assembly code. > >Certainly at least a million or several. > > I do not talk about comment lines or slack header files but lines that actually produce a single or multibyte instruction. I also do not talk about compilers, code generators and linkers which can *produce* an 800k file, but are by itself surely larger than its result. And given an executable is typically not pure code, but contains structural data (debug symbols, references, fixups, etc.) the 800k executable turns out to be even less than 800000 code or data bytes effectively. Holger From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 8 12:52:54 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 18:52:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Grant chain (was: New 11/24, what to do first? More info.) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 7, 6 08:35:53 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > Ethan Dicks writes: > > > Check your backplane for NPR wires, especially if you have any empty > > slots. As we rehash here in the list from time to time, you have to > > have a complete grant chain both for interrupts and for DMA in a > > Unibus box for it to boot and run properly. > > > > You might have to lay hands on some grant cards if you have empty slots. > > I have seen grant cards on ebay but I'm not exactly sure what purpose > they serve. Can someone enlighten me? Also, what are "NPR wires"? Strictly 'NPR wires' shold be 'NPG' wires. NPG stands for Non Processor Grant (and NPR is Non Processor Request). It's much the same as DMA. On the Unibus, an interrupt goes like that : 1) The intterupting device assets one of the Bus Request (BR) lines 2) If the priority levels is set appropriately, the processor (or more strictly the arbitor) asserts the approriate Bus Grant (BG) line. Now the BG lines are not bussed between all the slots. The arbitor drives the inputs on the first slot, the device in the first slot drives the inputs on the second slot, and so on. If a device is not the source of the Bus Request, it passes the grant on, If it is, then it handles the interrupt, and doesn't pass on the grant. This is a sort of priority scheme, devices neare the arbitor have higher priority. 3) The interrupting devices asserts SACK (Select ACKnowledge). The arbitor de-asserts BG. The interrupting device now has control of the bus 4) The interrupting device now outputs a vevtor onto the data lines, asserts the Interrupt line, and asserts MSYN (IIRC). The processor asserts SSYN to say it's taken the vector. 5) The device deasserts SACK, the processor now has control of the bus again, it executes the interrupt service routine. Non Processor Requests are similar. A device asserts NPR, the arbitor asserts NPG, the device asserts SACK, at which point it has the bus and can output addresses, data, etc to access memory. Now, the problem comes in the fact that the Grant lines (there are a total of 5, 4 BG's and NPG) are not bussed, they're daisy-chained. If you have an empty slot, you need to link the input contacts to the output contacts on that slot, so as to pass on the grant lines to the next slot on the backplane. Originally, there was no way to do NPR operations from a single-slot Small Periperhal Controller. So there were only the BG lines, they are on part of connector D. DEC made a little sqare PCB with some shorted-together fingers on one side that you put into connector D to link the BG Inputs to the BG Outputs. That was the original Grant Continuity Card. Soon afterwards, DEC put the NPG line on the Small Periperal Controller SLot, using 2 contacts of connector C. Since the grant continuity card didn't fit into that connector, and since NPR devices on one card were not common anyway, the NPG signal was passed on by a wire-wrapped jumper on the back of the backplane. It was fitted at the factory, you cut it (carefully!) if you put an NPR device in that slot, you re-wrapped it if you took the NPR decice out). Much later on, DEC made a dual-height Grant Continuity card which fitted into both connectors C and D. Needless to say this one links over all the BG and the NPG signals. But the problems are not over. Many older Small Peripheral Controller cards that do not do NPR trnasfers have nothing connected to the NPG In and Out fingers of connector C. If you put one of those in a slot, you have to put the wire-wrapped jumper in place, or solder a wire on the board between the appropriate fingers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 8 12:56:55 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 18:56:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: shipping for monitors In-Reply-To: <43C0A3BF.9010507@internet1.net> from "C Fernandez" at Jan 8, 6 00:31:43 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > However, for something like a CRT mounting, I'd not trust that. I'd cut > > off the original pillars, and smooth the inside of the case flat. Then > > make new metal pillars, drill and tap them along the axis, and fix them > > in place with screws from the outside. Conenct them to mains earth (or > > similar), just in case something breaks down and makes the screwheads live. > > I think I'd go with fixing the original mounts before I tried the above I have never had a glued repair that is as strong as the original, and since the mounts cracked ones, they could easily crack again. And a CRT coming loose is not pleasant! > suggestion. The above would require pretty good machine work, and after Is it really that hard to drill a hole along the axis of a cylinder? I would have thought a 3-jaw self-centring chuck would have been accurate enough for this sort of thing (I wouldn't bother trying to centre the work in an indepenedant chuck). And drill with a twist drill in the tailstock chuck. > is all said and done would probably be more delicate. Metal pillars > would transmit all shock directly to the outside plastic of the case, > potentially cracking it or punching a hole through it. The plastic > pillar would likely be tapered, so they could be wider at the base, and So make tapered matal pilars. Make the base as wide as posible (maybe even wider than the original plastic pillars), and put a decent-sized washer under the screw head on the otehr side. That should spread the load quite well. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 8 13:13:31 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 19:13:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ICL1900 In-Reply-To: <200601080859.IAA06993@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Jan 8, 6 08:59:41 am Message-ID: > The only ICL souvenir I have is a dark red 4-ring binder that once contained > a GE termiprinter maintenance manual (manual long gone unfortunately). \begin{aol} Me too! \end{aol} Mopre seriously, I have such an ICL binder with the Termiprinter field service manual still in it (I also have a couple of the Termiprinters). Alas the manual is a boardswapper guide with no schematics, and there's enough custom LSI stuff in the Termiprinter to make tracing out schematics a long job. And the printing quality was very poor. Some of the signal names, etc, are illegible now. I rememebr when I got my first Termiprinter, with the manual, I needed to take it apart to clean it. I took out the hammer bank and stripped it down, cleaned out the gunge, etc, and then looked in the manual for how to reasemble it. All it told me was that the hammer bank was not field-repairable. ARGH!. Yes, I got it going again, it wasn't even very difficult. I think I have a cassette drive manual in a similar binder that's also pretty hard to read in places. I am not sure you'd call them ICL souvenirs, but I do have 4 PERQs and associated documentation. At least the PERQ AGW3300 was an ICL design. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 8 15:08:14 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 21:08:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? (was: RL02 write faults, In-Reply-To: <20060108135756.NMAT17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jan 8, 6 09:51:05 am Message-ID: > > > Incidetnally, on most DMMs (including my Fluke), the fuse is for the > > current ranges only. The voltage and resistance ranges work fine with the > > fuse blown. But of course there are plenty of other faults that can cause > > a zero reading with a voltage on the input. Heck, even test leads can go > > open-circuit. > > Never assume this is the case - I've got a couple of rat-shack DMMs > where the fuse is simply in the positive meter lead - pop it and you lose > all functionality. Right... And as I said, even if the fuse wouldn't cause the voltage ranges to fail, plenty of other things could, starting with the leads themselves. NEVER assume the meter is working if your life could depend on it. Check it on a known voltage source of the same sort of voltage. > > I never trust a meter to be working until I see it read something I expect > (I think this comes from the early days when all I had was a rat-shack > meter which used to get dirty contacts causing failures from time to time). > > First thing I do when "entering" equipment is measure the power supply. Yep, I always check the PSU (prefereably on dummy load) first, too. So many problems are traced to PSU problems. I once spent a long time doing battle with the Unibus logic in a PDP11/45, the fault turned out to be that the PSU was sitting at 4.2V( should have been 5V, of course). The darn machine would work most of the time, and then do some really odd things. > This both tells me that the supply is "reasonable" and that my meter is > working (granted a double-failure could occur which happens to give me > a incorrect by reasonable reading, however this is not all that likely so I > usually don't get a second optinion unless I have cause to suspect the > PS). > > At the beginning of a session measuring resistance, I touch the probes > together to be sure "zero is zero" - just habits I have gotten into, but they > have turned up problems on more than one occation. Having been brought up on analogue meters where you have to set the zero on the resistance range by hand, I do this too. Force of habit. Just as, if I'm using the continuity beeper in my DMM, I tap the probes together when I've selected it (just to check I've pressed the right buttons). And then tap them together every so often thereafter, just to make sure it's still working. > > > > > Something I was taught early on (in a different context, but it applies > > to electronics too). 'It is much easier to make measurements than to know > > what you are measuring'. With most 'socpes, if you touch the probe on a > > point in your circuit and twiddle the knobs you will get _some kind of > > trace_. It may well mot be any use in actually tracking down the fault, > > though. It may not even be a true representation of the signal at that point. > > Not sure if this is a statement for or against, but my point is that by knowing It's a releated statement, not directly 'for' you, but on that side of things, and I agree with what you're saying My point is that it's very easy to get readings. They may or may not be meaningful, they may or may not help with the problem you'r trying to solve. Experience (and knowing what you expect) will help you to take meaninful readings, and to interpret them correctly. If you get a reading that disagrees with what you expect, then there are 2 posibilities. Either you've not measured what you thought you measured, or there is a fault. You then need to investigate which (and not to assume the second always!). If the rteading agrees with what you expect it's likely everything is OK (yes, it could be a fault _and_ a mismeasurement, but that's very unlikely). > what you are looking for, you have a better idea of "if it looks right" or not. > Many times I found trouble because a signal was present but didn't match > what I expected. And lots of times I investigated and had a "eureka" moment Oh sure. Many times there's _something_ on the testpoint, bnt it's not what it should be. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 8 16:35:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 14:35:40 -0800 Subject: shipping for monitors In-Reply-To: <43C165E0.1010004@internet1.net> References: <43C0A3BF.9010507@internet1.net> <200601072223540069.287E04A9@10.0.0.252> <43C165E0.1010004@internet1.net> Message-ID: <200601081435400677.2BF7B00C@10.0.0.252> On 1/8/2006 at 2:20 PM C Fernandez wrote: >Any idea what IBM used in the IBM PS/2 Model 80, and many of the older >RS/6000's? It's some kind of plastic, but not ABS. It's quite fibrous >looking on the inside. It seems to be very strong. Well, I don't have a PS/2 model 80, but various materials can be added as filler to most plastics to improve strength. Cheers, Chuck From fernande at internet1.net Sun Jan 8 20:24:44 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 21:24:44 -0500 Subject: shipping for monitors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C1C96C.9020209@internet1.net> Tony Duell wrote: > I have never had a glued repair that is as strong as the original, and > since the mounts cracked ones, they could easily crack again. And a CRT > coming loose is not pleasant! I suppose that would depends on what's being glued, and what the glue is. I've had a pretty good expereince with JB Weld, which is a brand of two-part epoxy. I haven't used other two-part epoxies, so I don't know if JB Weld is unique. > Is it really that hard to drill a hole along the axis of a cylinder? I > would have thought a 3-jaw self-centring chuck would have been accurate > enough for this sort of thing (I wouldn't bother trying to centre the > work in an indepenedant chuck). And drill with a twist drill in the > tailstock chuck. Owning a lathe certainly opens up greater possibilities, However, I don't own one, and I suspect most here don't either. I had some sort of premade standoff in mind, and was thinking the problem would be getting the old mount ground down flat enough. > So make tapered matal pilars. Make the base as wide as posible (maybe even > wider than the original plastic pillars), and put a decent-sized washer > under the screw head on the otehr side. That should spread the load quite > well. Tapered mounts will still require a lathe. Washers on the outside change the look of the machine even further, and may not even fit readily on the outside. Tapered mounts may not even fit well on the inside. Remember the base of many mounts is molded into the sides of the case via webbed supports. This saves space and strengthens the mounts. I'm not saying a metal mount definitely won't work, but I am saying the amount of work to overcome its potentially many short comings is great. Especially since repairing the original won't change the look of the machine, and should be a good repair if done right. I did like your idea of putting a reinforcing cloth around the break. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From tomj at wps.com Mon Jan 9 01:14:37 2006 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:14:37 -0800 Subject: making room... cleaning out stuff Message-ID: <5A9E66F9-AC02-4DC9-B9CB-5EA6E70F2D25@wps.com> Hey, long time no C... about 6 months. So unbelievably swamped with work I just had to drop time-sucking side shows I mean side projects... :-) Part of recovery from 2005 is making room in my smaller lab for the future, so cherished but in-the-way items must go. * I'm reducing my Data General Nova/4 to one rack. 'Must go' are a D.G. 6xxx vacuum column tape drive (or two) in good working order; the 4300 I/O subsystem with SAM and software; and depending on Bruce Ray's choice on first refusal, my Dasher LP2 in perfect working order, with a case and a half of sealed new factory ribbons and one case of greenbar. Centronics interface (plug onto a peecee!). Not easy to ship the latter. All in excellent shape with complete paper documentation and software. Would trade it all for one compatible reel and arm type tape drive that'd do 1600 bpi (would then free up the 2nd vaccuum column drive too). The items below are on eBay now: * bunch of S100 cards, all cheap and with manuals. * DSI paper & mylar punch and reader (broken hinge on reader but otherwise 100% fine). * HP 1650b logic analyzer with 5 complete probe sets. Works perfectly, tube somewhat dim. No operating manual, have maint. manual. ian * Old Shugart 801, w/front panel UNIT and WRITE PROTECT switches. * Kaypro II, very clean, in factory nylon carrying case. * Cardmatic 123a, with bunch of cards, non-working (bad tube and linecord for starters) but very clean * Micromation 10-slot S100 buss & card cage. From TMGHOUSTON at aol.com Thu Jan 5 12:06:51 2006 From: TMGHOUSTON at aol.com (TMGHOUSTON at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:06:51 EST Subject: TI-980 Message-ID: <75.53765399.30eeba3b@aol.com> Hello, I came across your name on a search for TI-980. Do you have any contacts who can do repairs for the different boards inside the TI-980? If you do, please pass it on as I've got a customer who needs repairs. Would you happen to know someone who might have a unit for sale? Thanks. E. Henry Valdez TECHNOLOGY MARKETING GROUP Houston, Texas USA (713) 666-6677 From b.taylor71 at ntlworld.com Thu Jan 5 05:52:30 2006 From: b.taylor71 at ntlworld.com (Brian Taylor) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:52:30 -0000 Subject: TI-74 manual Message-ID: <000501c611ee$835d5b60$c4570c56@family212wclfw> Hello, Were you successful in obtaining a copy of the TI-74 User Manual in .PDF? I have recently purchased a ti-74 that has only the Programming manual and would dearly love to have a copy if at all possible. Thank You, Yours sincerely, Brian Taylor From glg at grebus.com Thu Jan 5 23:44:34 2006 From: glg at grebus.com (Gary L. Grebus) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 00:44:34 -0500 Subject: VAXStation 8000? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1136526274.23804.38.camel@gate.grebus.com> On Wed, 2006-01-04 at 15:25 -0700, Richard wrote: > > Internal to E&S? I did see a DEC FS engineer carry in a box of > > new memory for our VAX 8200 (when I was a customer) and the box > > had "Lynx memory" scribbled on the outside. The VAX 8200 was > > Scorpio, but I _thought_ the VAXstation 8000 was Lynx. Several > > of the VAXstation series were named after cats (Panther and Cougar > > spring to mind). > > Maybe I'm misremembering code names. Lynx does sound familiar. Yes... the VS8000 was codenamed Lynx. The basic platform started its life as "Aurora", which was intended to be the bottom of the mid-range server family. It was the first project I worked on when I joined DEC in 1986. Aurora was a Microvax II CPU with some local memory, on the BI bus, with its own set of BI I/O boards. There was a disk controller for RD series disks (KFBTA if I remember correctly). Also a combined Ethernet and TK50 controller. The project was basically doomed when VMS engineering refused to support a "mutant" MicroVAX II. But the various parts lived on, including as the VS8000. The Ethernet controller became the DEBNA which was the standard BI Ethernet card. I think the CPU board got used for the console processor in the VAX9000. /gary From bv at norbionics.com Fri Jan 6 09:20:48 2006 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 16:20:48 +0100 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B3A@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B3A@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 15:26:13 +0100, James Fogg wrote: > > All automatic dishwasher detergents have lots of chlorine and might > bleach (great for discolored plastics), > Not just that, it might cause highly unwanted chemical reactions with some plastics, and certainly with any exposed copper. > Powdered automatic dish detergent has silicone dioxide (sand) and will > scour your boards, > > Because of the above 2 items you might want to use "hand" dishwashing > detergent, but not much since it will foam, I would suggest crystal soda, it is a good detergent and not overly caustic, and the rinsing cycle will get rid of residues. Ammonia solution would work, but would be quite smelly. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sun Jan 8 13:31:04 2006 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 19:31:04 +0000 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? In-Reply-To: <247a80e54d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <247a80e54d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <43C16878.4050108@gifford.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Avoid the cheap little "pocket" meters though. If it isn't a Fluke, it's > likely to be horrendously inaccurate at best. I agree, although I do have a cheap (?3 or so on eBay) pocket meter that's handy *because* it's so small. I can carry it around all the time without it becoming a nuisance for either bulk or weight. FWIW, it's a SkyTronic model 600.005. But if I want an accurate measurement, yes, I'll use another meter. Maybe one of my AVOs: http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/avo.htm or an HP: http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/inst.htm The HP 3476B Multimeter is a fine gadget, with Star Trek styling. But I'd really like an HP 970A probe-style meter. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jan 9 04:22:57 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:22:57 GMT Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Vermo_=3Cbv=40norbionics=2Ecom=3E _______=22Re=3A_cleaning_keyboards_in_the_dishwasher=22_=28Jan__6=2C_16?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3A20=29?= References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B3A@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <10601091022.ZM9963@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 6 2006, 16:20, Bj??rn Vermo wrote: > On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 15:26:13 +0100, James Fogg wrote: > > > > All automatic dishwasher detergents have lots of chlorine and might > > bleach (great for discolored plastics), > > Not just that, it might cause highly unwanted chemical reactions with some > plastics, and certainly with any exposed copper. > > > Powdered automatic dish detergent has silicone dioxide (sand) and will > > scour your boards, > > > > Because of the above 2 items you might want to use "hand" dishwashing > > detergent, but not much since it will foam, > > I would suggest crystal soda, it is a good detergent and not overly > caustic, and the rinsing cycle will get rid of residues. > Ammonia solution would work, but would be quite smelly. Some of you seem to have slightly odd ideas about detergents :-) I know of no dishwasher detergent that contains chlorine (which is a gas) nor large amounts of chlorine-based bleaches. (Mild) Bleaches and brightners are common in *clothes* detergents where there are good for stain removal, but they're *not* good in dishwashers, where the bleach would tend to fade patterns on crockery. Therefore dishwasher detergent manufacturers use only very small amounts, if any, and they're usually oxygen-based. More to the point though, they don't contain silicon dioxide, at least not any I've come across (btw it's silicon, not silicone). They might feel gritty, but that's not sand, it's solid detergent. If you dissolve dishwasher detergent (loose powder or a tablet) in a jug of water, it will eventually dissolve completely, leaving no sand behind. Do you think manufacturers would put sand, one of the few common substances that will scour glass, into a substance used for cleaning glassware? If you're worried about the powder, it's perfectly possible to get liquid dishwater detergent. Crystal soda is not a detergent. It's sodium carbonate, Na2CO3. It *is* caustic, it's a mild alkali. That's why it works -- it saponifies oils, in the same way caustic soda or caustic potash do. That is to say, it chemically reacts with oil and similar things to turn them into something water-miscible. Detergent, on the other hand, does not react with oils, it works like soap to mix with free oily substances and water. Ammonia is worse and not good for some plasics. Don't put those in your dishwasher. Finally, detergent won't damage copper, aluminium, steel, or other metal. Water will. Detergents can remove oils and other thin-film coating that might protect metal, so it is wise to dry things carefully after getting them wet because water and air can cause corrosion, but it's not the detergent that does that, it's the water. Well, actually it's the air, but water permits various electrolytic reactions that hasten the process. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Jan 9 00:58:44 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 06:58:44 +0000 Subject: TI-74 manual In-Reply-To: <000501c611ee$835d5b60$c4570c56@family212wclfw> Message-ID: <20060109110536.CODS17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Hello, Were you successful in obtaining a copy of the TI-74 User Manual in .PDF? I have recently > purchased a ti-74 that has only the Programming manual and would dearly love to have a copy if at > all possible. Thank You, Yours sincerely, Brian Taylor I have PDF's of the TI-74 programming and technical manuals available on my site (look in the TI section). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 07:26:07 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 08:26:07 -0500 Subject: shipping for monitors In-Reply-To: <200601081435400677.2BF7B00C@10.0.0.252> References: <43C0A3BF.9010507@internet1.net> <200601072223540069.287E04A9@10.0.0.252> <43C165E0.1010004@internet1.net> <200601081435400677.2BF7B00C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43C2646F.30602@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/8/2006 at 2:20 PM C Fernandez wrote: > > >>Any idea what IBM used in the IBM PS/2 Model 80, and many of the older >>RS/6000's? It's some kind of plastic, but not ABS. It's quite fibrous >>looking on the inside. It seems to be very strong. > > > Well, I don't have a PS/2 model 80, but various materials can be added as > filler to most plastics to improve strength. I'm fond of saying that IBM's plastic is stronger (and heavier) than steel. Peace... Sridhar From rcini at optonline.net Mon Jan 9 08:13:58 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 09:13:58 -0500 Subject: TDL ZApple monitor Message-ID: <005f01c61526$eecb28b0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: Does anyone have a copy of the Technical Design Labs "ZApple" monitor program for the TDL ZPU Z80-based CPU card in electronic form? I have the printed source code but I thought I'd ask before scanning/OCRing. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From CPUMECH at aol.com Mon Jan 9 08:28:29 2006 From: CPUMECH at aol.com (CPUMECH at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 09:28:29 EST Subject: TI-980 Message-ID: Dataterm used to work on the silent 700's, 725,735,745,703,707's.I think that's about all of the terminals. They still do 810,825,880"s dot matrix. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jan 9 09:04:40 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:04:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: What do I call my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <43BF20C5.8050900@mdrconsult.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B41@sbs.jdfogg.com> <43BF20C5.8050900@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200601091505.KAA16182@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Just like any admin with SPARC systems in his network *must* name a > machine Elvis. Why? Are you sure you don't mean "with Sun OSes" rather than "with SPARC systems"? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jgessling at yahoo.com Mon Jan 9 09:48:20 2006 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 07:48:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Copying Heathkit manuals In-Reply-To: <200601081435400677.2BF7B00C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060109154820.20586.qmail@web31903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I was wondering about this. Some vendors, like tektronix say explicitly that this is OK if it is for a product no longer supported. I'm asking because I offered to make a copy for a friend (Sine Square Wave Audio Generator) manual, but I'm not sure I should. Yes, I know there are gobs of people selling copies on the net. Ideas? Jim __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL ? Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com From fernande at internet1.net Mon Jan 9 11:33:56 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 12:33:56 -0500 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <10601091022.ZM9963@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B3A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601091022.ZM9963@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <43C29E84.6060709@internet1.net> Pete Turnbull wrote: > Do you think manufacturers would put sand, one of the few common > substances that will scour glass, into a substance used for cleaning > glassware? What is it that etches glass in a dishwasher? > Finally, detergent won't damage copper, aluminium, steel, or other > metal. Water will. Detergents can remove oils and other thin-film > coating that might protect metal, so it is wise to dry things carefully > after getting them wet because water and air can cause corrosion, but > it's not the detergent that does that, it's the water. Well, actually > it's the air, but water permits various electrolytic reactions that > hasten the process. I don't have any problems with corrosion when cleaning metal with dishsoap. However, if I use dishwasher soap in a dishwasher on metal, I'll get corrosion every time. I'm stripping oil off both ways. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jan 9 11:32:15 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:32:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <10601091022.ZM9963@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B3A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601091022.ZM9963@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200601091736.MAA17238@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Do you think manufacturers would put sand, one of the few common > substances that will scour glass, into a substance used for cleaning > glassware? Sand, no, but silicon dioxide, quite possibly. (Not all silicon dioxide is sand.) In sufficiently fine particles, it won't hurt anything - consider that polishing agents are basically just abrasives on a very fine scale. > Detergent, on the other hand, does not react with oils, it works like > soap to mix with free oily substances and water. I've heard that that's not actually true, that detergents actually cleave fats and oils, digesting them, if you will - that that's the difference between detergents and soaps, in fact. But that was afrom a relatively non-authoritative source; anyone here actually know the chemistry of detergents and how they differ from soaps? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From James at jdfogg.com Mon Jan 9 12:05:02 2006 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:05:02 -0500 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com> > I know of no dishwasher detergent that contains chlorine (which is a > gas) nor large amounts of chlorine-based bleaches. (Mild) > Bleaches and brightners are common in *clothes* detergents > where there are good for stain removal, but they're *not* > good in dishwashers, where the bleach would tend to fade > patterns on crockery. Therefore dishwasher detergent > manufacturers use only very small amounts, if any, and > they're usually oxygen-based. I smell chlorine during the wash cycle and it's not coming from our private well water, and I had assumed it was in the mix to promote sanitization as it is for commercial dishwashers used in restaurants. As for chlorine being a gas, yes it prefers to be a gas at room temperature and sea level atmospheric pressures, but is released by many different forms of solid chemicals that disolve in water and release the chlorine to the water, from which it evaporates into a gas (like for swimming pool sanitization). > More to the point though, they don't contain silicon dioxide, > at least not any I've come across (btw it's silicon, not > silicone). They might feel gritty, but that's not sand, it's > solid detergent. If you dissolve dishwasher detergent (loose > powder or a tablet) in a jug of water, it will eventually > dissolve completely, leaving no sand behind. > Do you think manufacturers would put sand, one of the few > common substances that will scour glass, into a substance > used for cleaning glassware? Something in powdered detergents would "sandblast" the previously shiny surface of the soft plastic handles of our Revereware pots. Liquid detergents don't cause this problem. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jan 9 12:08:12 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:08:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Basic Language Star Trek Program Message-ID: <200601091808.KAA21490@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Wayne Talbot" > ---snip--- >> >> >The basic program was in the People's Computer Company Magazine in the >late 70's. >You could type it in and run it in Tiny Basic. It took up about 2k memory. >I ran it using PaloAlto Tiny Basic (which was only 2k itself). >I will see if I can find my copy of the magazine if you are willing to >type it in. >In the meantime, if anyone has an electronic version, let everybody know. > Hi I have the PATB version of *trek. It is in Tiny Basic syntax so a lot of the commands are abreviated ( you know, things like G. for goto and such ). I also have a document file for it with instructions. One can figure it out without the instructions though. Anyone want it, send me you email address and I'll send a copy to you. Dwight From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Jan 9 03:02:46 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 09:02:46 +0000 Subject: ICL1900 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 08 Jan 2006 19:13:31 GMT." Message-ID: <200601090902.JAA12279@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tony Duell said: > I rememebr when I got my first Termiprinter, with the manual, I needed to > take it apart to clean it. I took out the hammer bank and stripped it > down, cleaned out the gunge, etc, and then looked in the manual for how > to reasemble it. All it told me was that the hammer bank was not > field-repairable. ARGH!. Yes, I got it going again, it wasn't even very > difficult. I remember what an annoying racket those hammers made! Someone always seemed to want a 50-page report just when I was trying to carry on a telephone conversation in our, otherwise quite quiet, office. They eventually gave us a (slightly) sound-proof cover... Still, it was a nicer noise than the screeching 24-pin dot matrix we had in later years! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Mon Jan 9 13:16:25 2006 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick/VCM SysOp) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 11:16:25 -0800 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <43C29E84.6060709@internet1.net> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B3A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601091022.ZM9963@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <43C29E84.6060709@internet1.net> Message-ID: <43C2B689.9040500@vintagecomputermarketplace.com> >> Do you think manufacturers would put sand, one of the few common >> substances that will scour glass, into a substance used for cleaning >> glassware? > > > What is it that etches glass in a dishwasher? It could be sodium hydroxide (aka lye, also used in drain cleaning products), potassium hydroxide, or a similar caustic. From my other hobby life (home brewing): dishwasher detergents that contain these alkalis are great at removing scorched malt from your (stainless) boiling pot, and they are a little safer to handle than the powder bags of it that you can buy at many brewing supply houses. But strong alkalis will etch glass chemically and put a haze on it over time. > I don't have any problems with corrosion when cleaning metal with > dishsoap. However, if I use dishwasher soap in a dishwasher on metal, > I'll get corrosion every time. I'm stripping oil off both ways. Certainly, but you're also putting a fairly caustic solution on it to help it along, at least for some metals. I have brass fittings on hose assemblies that turn black during cleaning with detergent (which I now avoid). And beware of aluminum trim on things, which will lose their shine. Copper doesn't seem very reactive though--a Good Thing, since you home's pipes are likely copper, but I'm not entirely sure, since those pipes also carry a lot of water otherwise to dilute the solution. I don't know of any dish soaps that contain lye (but we've used one brand for years). I think it would be too hard on your hands (or those of she who must be obeyed) to be a popular product. Patrick From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 9 13:26:39 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 11:26:39 -0800 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <200601091126390470.3070FEFD@10.0.0.252> Most dishwasher detergents are composed primarily of a basic salt, such as sodium carbonate and a low-foaming detergent (surfactant). Wetting agents may also be added to avoid streaking. The idea behind the salt is that it's hydrolized in the presence of very hot water to create a very basic (pH near that of lye) solution, which will saponify grease and oils. Fragrance and colorants may be added (no practical sanitary value, but it's done nonetheless) and sometimes chlorine bleach is a component (which accounts for a chlorine odor that you may smell). All of this information is available from most manufacturers' MSDS (and most are available online). Would I wash electronics in a dishwasher loaded with dishwasher detergent? I don't think so--the combination can attack certain metals, such as aluminum and magnesium (note that the label on your detergent says NOT to wash aluminum cookware in the dishwasher). More important in my mind is that conductive salts might be left behind. If I felt a need to wash some electronics, I'd do it with warm or hot water and a simple detergent without added salts. While the action of a dishwasher detergent might be handy if you dumped a bottle of Cheez Whiz into your keyboard, I'd think that it'd be overkill in most cases. Cheers, Chuck From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Jan 9 13:57:08 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:57:08 -0600 Subject: What do I call my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <200601091505.KAA16182@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: I don't get the joke, and I uses Suns. Please to explain? > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of der Mouse > Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 9:05 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: What do I call my PDP-11? > > > Just like any admin with SPARC systems in his network *must* name a > > machine Elvis. > > Why? Are you sure you don't mean "with Sun OSes" rather than "with > SPARC systems"? > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jan 9 14:08:32 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 14:08:32 -0600 Subject: What do I call my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <200601091505.KAA16182@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B41@sbs.jdfogg.com> <43BF20C5.8050900@mdrconsult.com> <200601091505.KAA16182@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43C2C2C0.8040609@mdrconsult.com> der Mouse wrote: >>Just like any admin with SPARC systems in his network *must* name a >>machine Elvis. > > > Why? Are you sure you don't mean "with Sun OSes" rather than "with > SPARC systems"? I suppose you're correct. Solaris x86 rarely intrudes upon my consciousness, though. Doc From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 14:07:59 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 15:07:59 -0500 Subject: What do I call my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C2C29F.1070805@gmail.com> Julian Wolfe wrote: > I don't get the joke, and I uses Suns. Please to explain? If Elvis is a machine, and it's currently running and on the network, and you ping it, the ping command will respond "elvis is alive". Peace... Sridhar >>-----Original Message----- >>From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >>On Behalf Of der Mouse >>Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 9:05 AM >>To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>Subject: Re: What do I call my PDP-11? >> >> >>>Just like any admin with SPARC systems in his network *must* name a >>>machine Elvis. >> >>Why? Are you sure you don't mean "with Sun OSes" rather than "with >>SPARC systems"? >> >>/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >>\ / Ribbon Campaign >> X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca >>/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jan 9 14:10:17 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:10:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: What do I call my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601092013.PAA18471@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> [top-posting and entire-quoting repaired manually -dM] >>> Just like any admin with SPARC systems in his network *must* name a >>> machine Elvis. >> Why? Are you sure you don't mean "with Sun OSes" rather than "with >> SPARC systems"? > I don't get the joke, and I uses Suns. Please to explain? I'm not sure *I* do. But the only thing I can think of is that SunOS (and quite possibly Solaris) ping doesn't act like BSD ping (reporting individual packets) unless specifically told to with a flag; instead, it just reports liveness. And the message when a machine is up is of the form "%s is alive"; this leads to amusement when the target machine is named elvis. That's why I said that you need Sun OSes rather than SPARC machines. I, for exmaple, have lots of SPARCs at home and not one of them exhibits such behaviour, because I'm not running any Sun OSes. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 14:15:42 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 20:15:42 +0000 Subject: What do I call my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: References: <200601091505.KAA16182@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <26c11a640601091215g5326081dr@mail.gmail.com> On 09/01/06, Julian Wolfe wrote: > I don't get the joke, and I uses Suns. Please to explain? I thought I read it on this list the other day, although it could of been somewhere else. When you ping Elvis. You get the message "Elvis is Alive" on Solaris. Dan From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jan 9 14:18:51 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 14:18:51 -0600 Subject: What do I call my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C2C52B.6070200@mdrconsult.com> Julian Wolfe wrote: > I don't get the joke, and I uses Suns. Please to explain? If you ping another system from a Solaris box, instead of the verbose return info from ping you get in most OS's, Solaris simply returns: is alive There was a huge cult/contingent in the US for many years that maintained Elvis Presley had staged his own death, so making your Solaris machine say "elvis is alive" is the joke. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 9 14:25:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 12:25:00 -0800 Subject: What do I call my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <43C2C29F.1070805@gmail.com> References: <43C2C29F.1070805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200601091225000910.30A6704D@10.0.0.252> On 1/9/2006 at 3:07 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >If Elvis is a machine, and it's currently running and on the network, >and you ping it, the ping command will respond "elvis is alive". All of which just goes to prove that it doesn't take much to keep some people amused. :) Chuck From allain at panix.com Mon Jan 9 14:27:46 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:27:46 -0500 Subject: shipping for monitors References: <43C0A3BF.9010507@internet1.net> <200601072223540069.287E04A9@10.0.0.252> <43C165E0.1010004@internet1.net><200601081435400677.2BF7B00C@10.0.0.252> <43C2646F.30602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000901c6155b$2774a180$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> >Any idea what IBM used in the IBM PS/2 Model 80, and many of the older >RS/6000's? It's some kind of plastic, but not ABS. It's quite fibrous >looking on the inside. It seems to be very strong. My guess is epoxy resin, based on talking with a (fairly highly educated) plastics recycler. It appeared that this type material does not melt as easily as what we call regular plastic. John A. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Jan 9 14:28:13 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 14:28:13 -0600 Subject: What do I call my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <43C2C52B.6070200@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: Hahahaha I get it now, and yes, I've used that ping. That's like (and I forget which compiler in RSTS did this) where you typed "make love", and you didn't have a program called "love" it would respond with "not war" > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Doc Shipley > Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 2:19 PM > To: General at mdrconsult.com; Discussion at mdrconsult.com :On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: What do I call my PDP-11? > > Julian Wolfe wrote: > > I don't get the joke, and I uses Suns. Please to explain? > > If you ping another system from a Solaris box, instead of the verbose > return info from ping you get in most OS's, Solaris simply returns: > > is alive > > There was a huge cult/contingent in the US for many years that > maintained Elvis Presley had staged his own death, so making your > Solaris machine say "elvis is alive" is the joke. > > > Doc From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Jan 9 14:50:41 2006 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 12:50:41 -0800 Subject: What do I call my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:28 PM -0600 1/9/06, Julian Wolfe wrote: >Hahahaha I get it now, and yes, I've used that ping. > >That's like (and I forget which compiler in RSTS did this) where you typed >"make love", and you didn't have a program called "love" it would respond >with "not war" No compiler, that was a teco alias. > > -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> On Behalf Of Doc Shipley >> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 2:19 PM >> To: General at mdrconsult.com; Discussion at mdrconsult.com :On-Topic and Off- >> Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: What do I call my PDP-11? >> >> Julian Wolfe wrote: >> > I don't get the joke, and I uses Suns. Please to explain? >> >> If you ping another system from a Solaris box, instead of the verbose >> return info from ping you get in most OS's, Solaris simply returns: >> >> is alive >> >> There was a huge cult/contingent in the US for many years that >> maintained Elvis Presley had staged his own death, so making your >> Solaris machine say "elvis is alive" is the joke. >> >> > > Doc John From hachti at hachti.de Mon Jan 9 15:00:52 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 22:00:52 +0100 Subject: Unknown Honeywell tape drive - Help! Message-ID: <43C2CF04.20006@hachti.de> Hello everybody, I can get an old Honeywell type drive. But I know literally nothing about it. Not even the model number...! Here is a link to a few pictures I've received today: http://hachti.de/honeywell-tape/ All I know about it is that it has the colour and same switches style like my Honeywell H316 computer. Perhaps I could use them together? The tape was originally connected to a machine called H632. So I ask for every information known about this tape drive. Perhaps someone has software, schematics etc.? I would be grateful for every little piece of material/knowledge! Thank you very much, Philipp :-) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 9 16:35:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 15:35:50 -0700 Subject: What do I call my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 09 Jan 2006 14:28:13 -0600. Message-ID: In article , "Julian Wolfe" writes: > Hahahaha I get it now, and yes, I've used that ping. > > That's like (and I forget which compiler in RSTS did this) where you typed > "make love", and you didn't have a program called "love" it would respond > with "not war" I think there is a file somewhere of unix /bin/sh-isms that end up being humorous. Like: 1> rm god god: non-existent -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Jan 9 16:44:37 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 16:44:37 -0600 Subject: What do I call my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, as long as we're on the topic, what the heck: http://pintopc.home.cern.ch/pintopc/www/cois&lois/Unix_err.htm > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 4:36 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: What do I call my PDP-11? > > > In article , > "Julian Wolfe" writes: > > > Hahahaha I get it now, and yes, I've used that ping. > > > > That's like (and I forget which compiler in RSTS did this) where you > typed > > "make love", and you didn't have a program called "love" it would > respond > > with "not war" > > I think there is a file somewhere of unix /bin/sh-isms that end up being > humorous. Like: > > 1> rm god > god: non-existent > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Jan 9 18:05:47 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 19:05:47 -0500 Subject: making room... cleaning out stuff In-Reply-To: <5A9E66F9-AC02-4DC9-B9CB-5EA6E70F2D25@wps.com> References: <5A9E66F9-AC02-4DC9-B9CB-5EA6E70F2D25@wps.com> Message-ID: <200601091905.47097.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 09 January 2006 02:14 am, Tom Jennings wrote: > Hey, long time no C... about 6 months. So unbelievably swamped with > work I just had to drop time-sucking side shows I mean side > projects... :-) > > Part of recovery from 2005 is making room in my smaller lab for the > future, so cherished but in-the-way items must go. > > * I'm reducing my Data General Nova/4 to one rack. 'Must go' are a > D.G. 6xxx vacuum column tape drive (or two) in good working order; Wow, those'd be nifty. I wonder how hard they'd be to interface to something else? > the 4300 I/O subsystem with SAM and software; and depending on Bruce > Ray's choice on first refusal, my Dasher LP2 in perfect working > order, with a case and a half of sealed new factory ribbons and one > case of greenbar. Centronics interface (plug onto a peecee!). Not > easy to ship the latter. All in excellent shape with complete paper > documentation and software. Would trade it all for one compatible > reel and arm type tape drive that'd do 1600 bpi (would then free up > the 2nd vaccuum column drive too). What bpi will the ones mentioned do? > > The items below are on eBay now: > > > * bunch of S100 cards, all cheap and with manuals. Hm. > * DSI paper & mylar punch and reader (broken hinge on reader but > otherwise 100% fine). > > * HP 1650b logic analyzer with 5 complete probe sets. Works > perfectly, tube somewhat dim. No operating manual, have maint. manual. > ian > * Old Shugart 801, w/front panel UNIT and WRITE PROTECT switches. > > * Kaypro II, very clean, in factory nylon carrying case. Gee, I never got a carrying case with any of mine, though I do have a 4 done up in floral contact paper. :-) > * Cardmatic 123a, with bunch of cards, non-working (bad tube and > linecord for starters) but very clean > > * Micromation 10-slot S100 buss & card cage. Too bad I don't do ebay. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jan 9 18:16:03 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:16:03 GMT Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: "James Fogg" "RE: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher" (Jan 9, 13:05) References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <10601100016.ZM11511@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 9 2006, 13:05, James Fogg wrote: > Something in powdered detergents would "sandblast" the previously shiny > surface of the soft plastic handles of our Revereware pots. Liquid > detergents don't cause this problem. I don't think it's silicon dioxide, though. I've often seen the effect you describe; it seems to happen when the wash cycle is hot and I think it's mainly the harshness of the detergent. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jan 9 18:08:43 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:08:43 GMT Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: C Fernandez "Re: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher" (Jan 9, 12:33) References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B3A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601091022.ZM9963@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <43C29E84.6060709@internet1.net> Message-ID: <10601100008.ZM11499@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 9 2006, 12:33, C Fernandez wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Do you think manufacturers would put sand, one of the few common > > substances that will scour glass, into a substance used for cleaning > > glassware? > > What is it that etches glass in a dishwasher? The repeated action of hot and mildly alkaline water containing detergent, particularly if it's hard water. > I don't have any problems with corrosion when cleaning metal with > dishsoap. However, if I use dishwasher soap in a dishwasher on metal, > I'll get corrosion every time. I'm stripping oil off both ways. Most likely that's down to electrolytic action between slightly different metals, particularly where utensils are touching each other. It's commonly seen with mixtures of "stainless" steel. It's not because of the type of detergent. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jan 9 18:12:31 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:12:31 GMT Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: der Mouse "Re: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher" (Jan 9, 12:32) References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B3A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601091022.ZM9963@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <200601091736.MAA17238@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <10601100012.ZM11502@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 9 2006, 12:32, der Mouse wrote: > Sand, no, but silicon dioxide, quite possibly. (Not all silicon > dioxide is sand.) In sufficiently fine particles, it won't hurt > anything - consider that polishing agents are basically just abrasives > on a very fine scale. Different sort of polishing, though. You're thinking of things like jeweller's rouge, metal polish, etc. The small amount of SiO2 that could be included in a normal dose of dishwasher powder would be pretty pointless, I'm sure. > > Detergent, on the other hand, does not react with oils, it works like > > soap to mix with free oily substances and water. > > I've heard that that's not actually true, that detergents actually > cleave fats and oils, digesting them, if you will - that that's the > difference between detergents and soaps, in fact. But that was afrom a > relatively non-authoritative source; anyone here actually know the > chemistry of detergents and how they differ from soaps? I was oversimplifiying, I admit; there is a difference, yes. It's not an area I could claim to be a real expert on, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 9 16:34:31 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:34:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ICL1900 In-Reply-To: <200601090902.JAA12279@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Jan 9, 6 09:02:46 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > Tony Duell said: > > > I rememebr when I got my first Termiprinter, with the manual, I needed to > > take it apart to clean it. I took out the hammer bank and stripped it > > down, cleaned out the gunge, etc, and then looked in the manual for how > > to reasemble it. All it told me was that the hammer bank was not > > field-repairable. ARGH!. Yes, I got it going again, it wasn't even very > > difficult. > > I remember what an annoying racket those hammers made! Someone always Hmmm.. I remember the fluorescent lamp across the front to illuminate the printing, the column display on the KSR model (since you couldn't see where the carriage had got to as there wasn't carriage), and the wonderful keyboard. What a nice feel. It was, of course, electromagnetically encoded -- each key bar carried an I-core that fitted onto a U-core in the PCB. Pressing a key completed the magnetic loop, increasing the coupling between the PCB tracks. Each core carried a clock track and the aprorpriate data output tracks -- these occured in pairs, normal and inverted for each bit, each core had one or the other. The signals from each pair went to differential amplifiers in one of the ASICs I believe. I started out with a 75-column KSR and a 118 column RO. By moving parts around, I got the reverse (118 column KSR, 75 column RO). The only problems was that column display I mentioned. It wasn't fitted on RO models, and was either 2 or 3 digit as approriate on the KSRs. I fitted a red LED to the left of it, wired to the appropriate signal (the counter board could handle 3 digits, maybe with a link swap). Not original, but the chances of finding one of those 7 segment filament displays and its socket are close to zero. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 9 16:26:38 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:26:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: shipping for monitors In-Reply-To: <43C1C96C.9020209@internet1.net> from "C Fernandez" at Jan 8, 6 09:24:44 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > I have never had a glued repair that is as strong as the original, and > > since the mounts cracked ones, they could easily crack again. And a CRT > > coming loose is not pleasant! > > I suppose that would depends on what's being glued, and what the glue > is. I've had a pretty good expereince with JB Weld, which is a brand of > two-part epoxy. I haven't used other two-part epoxies, so I don't know > if JB Weld is unique. In the UK, the most common/first Epozy is called 'Araldite'. Actually, there are _many_ types of Araldite, but the common one is a 2-part epoxy that is pretty strong _if it keys to the material you're joining_. My experience is that Epoxy-type adhesives are not that good on plastics, disolving and thus welding being stronger most of the time. > > > Is it really that hard to drill a hole along the axis of a cylinder? I > > would have thought a 3-jaw self-centring chuck would have been accurate > > enough for this sort of thing (I wouldn't bother trying to centre the > > work in an indepenedant chuck). And drill with a twist drill in the > > tailstock chuck. > > Owning a lathe certainly opens up greater possibilities, However, I > don't own one, and I suspect most here don't either. I had some sort of Ah.... I am probably one of the few people who bought a lathe in order, primarily, to make spare parts for old computers/peripherals, etc. Yes, I have other interests for which it will be very useful (I _must_ make a real mechanical clock sometime...). I have done several classic computer repairs for which the lathe was essential. The most recent was assembling an HP7245A plotter. No, you don't need a lathe to assemble it, you need a lathe to make the special tools that you need to align parts of it. If you could still get the tools from HP, it would have been a lot easier. > premade standoff in mind, and was thinking the problem would be getting > the old mount ground down flat enough. > > > So make tapered matal pilars. Make the base as wide as posible (maybe even > > wider than the original plastic pillars), and put a decent-sized washer > > under the screw head on the otehr side. That should spread the load quite > > well. > > Tapered mounts will still require a lathe. Washers on the outside > change the look of the machine even further, and may not even fit A CRT inploding also alters the appearance :-). And possibly the appearance of other machines and people near it. Again, as I've said before, I don't care what my machines _look_ like. They are not pieces of fine art. The beauty is in the design, and possibly the contruction (but that's not changes by adding a few screws to the front). > readily on the outside. Tapered mounts may not even fit well on the > inside. Remember the base of many mounts is molded into the sides of > the case via webbed supports. This saves space and strengthens the Given a lathe and milling facilities, I am sure you could make something that would fit. No, I am not suggesting you need a milling machine as well, most small lathes have milling attachments, such as a vertical slide. That is perfectly adequate for this sort of job. > mounts. I'm not saying a metal mount definitely won't work, but I am > saying the amount of work to overcome its potentially many short comings > is great. Especially since repairing the original won't change the look > of the machine, and should be a good repair if done right. I did like I have never managed to glue a pillar back in place with sufficient strengly to hold anything (and I know others who have had similar problems, e.g. in radio restoration/repair). It is generally agreed you need to put a screw through it. > your idea of putting a reinforcing cloth around the break. That works well. I used it to hold an HP9830 keyboard bezel together (this plastic goes very brittle with age, and the bezels are almost always shatteresd). I still wouldn't trust it for a stuctural part, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 9 16:16:38 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 22:16:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? In-Reply-To: <43C16878.4050108@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at Jan 8, 6 07:31:04 pm Message-ID: > But if I want an accurate measurement, yes, I'll use > another meter. Maybe one of my AVOs: > > http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/avo.htm Ah yes, fine instruments. I have an old Model 8 (I can't remember the version), a DA114 (early digital meter) and, of course, a Valve Characteristic Meter Mk 4. For the people across the Pond, AVO, of course, comes from the initals of Amps Volts, Ohms. It was the brand name of one of the first multimeters in the UK (the 'Universal AVOmeter' was around before WW2 I think, 'Universal' meaning it had AC and DC ranges). Amongst older engineers and scientists, 'AVO' is used as a generic name for any multimeter over here. > > or an HP: > > http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/inst.htm > > The HP 3476B Multimeter is a fine gadget, with Star Trek > styling. But I'd really like an HP 970A probe-style > meter. So would I. And an HP3468. I think that's the model, the one with an HPIL interface on it. I have an HP3421 logger which is very nice, but you need a computer/calculator to control it. It has no front panel controls or display. -tony From tomj at wps.com Mon Jan 9 20:13:07 2006 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 18:13:07 -0800 Subject: making room... cleaning out stuff In-Reply-To: <200601091905.47097.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <5A9E66F9-AC02-4DC9-B9CB-5EA6E70F2D25@wps.com> <200601091905.47097.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: On Jan 9, 2006, at 4:05 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> >> * I'm reducing my Data General Nova/4 to one rack. 'Must go' are a >> D.G. 6xxx vacuum column tape drive (or two) in good working order; > > Wow, those'd be nifty. I wonder how hard they'd be to interface > to something > else? > Well, if you'd like to... there's enough information. It's just a bunch of parallel lines with control and status, then a dual-flag ssytem, to transfer data (eg. DMA handshake) that will go slow, but I imagine too slow you'd underrun the drive. I did an interface to a 1/2" 7-track tape drive aeons ago on a SWTP 6800 (833KHz CPU!) using two parallel ports. Slow, non-standard, but it was my main data storage device for a few years. > What bpi will the ones mentioned do? 800 only If you actually want them you'll have to drive to Los Angeles -- large, delicate, heavy. http://wps.com/NOVA4, 24" deep each. Racks are free. Two in one rack would weigh 300+ lbs including rack, but it would have wheels. > Too bad I don't do ebay. freedom of religion in this country for now at least From fernande at internet1.net Mon Jan 9 22:16:28 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 23:16:28 -0500 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <10601100008.ZM11499@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B3A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601091022.ZM9963@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <43C29E84.6060709@internet1.net> <10601100008.ZM11499@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <43C3351C.8080901@internet1.net> Pete Turnbull wrote: > Most likely that's down to electrolytic action between slightly > different metals, particularly where utensils are touching each other. > It's commonly seen with mixtures of "stainless" steel. It's not > because of the type of detergent. Utensils are stainless, and I don't have a problem with those. It's only the metal computer parts. Aluminum/pot metal, amd plated stuff mainly. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From fernande at internet1.net Mon Jan 9 22:20:15 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 23:20:15 -0500 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <10601100016.ZM11511@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601100016.ZM11511@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <43C335FF.5090108@internet1.net> Pete Turnbull wrote: >>surface of the soft plastic handles of our Revereware pots. Liquid >>detergents don't cause this problem. > > > I don't think it's silicon dioxide, though. I've often seen the effect > you describe; it seems to happen when the wash cycle is hot and I think > it's mainly the harshness of the detergent. I'd also think it was done chemicaly. I tried cleaning an aluminum pan, that I thought was steel with lye. It bubbled a lot, and came out with a sandblasted texture. Normally, I wouldn't mistake aluminum for steel, but this was a well used restaurant pizza pan that had a thick build up of carbonized oil/grease on it, so it felt heavy enough to be steel! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Jan 9 22:39:51 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 23:39:51 -0500 Subject: making room... cleaning out stuff In-Reply-To: References: <5A9E66F9-AC02-4DC9-B9CB-5EA6E70F2D25@wps.com> <200601091905.47097.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200601092339.51624.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 09 January 2006 09:13 pm, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Jan 9, 2006, at 4:05 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> * I'm reducing my Data General Nova/4 to one rack. 'Must go' are a > >> D.G. 6xxx vacuum column tape drive (or two) in good working order; > > > > Wow, those'd be nifty. I wonder how hard they'd be to interface > > to something > > else? > > Well, if you'd like to... there's enough information. It's just a > bunch of parallel lines with control and status, then a dual-flag > ssytem, to transfer data (eg. DMA handshake) that will go slow, but I > imagine too slow you'd underrun the drive. > > I did an interface to a 1/2" 7-track tape drive aeons ago on a SWTP > 6800 (833KHz CPU!) using two parallel ports. Slow, non-standard, but > it was my main data storage device for a few years. > > > What bpi will the ones mentioned do? > > 800 only Hmm. If I'm gonna pursue something like that I might as well go for some more flexibility... > > If you actually want them you'll have to drive to Los Angeles -- Not gonna happen any time soon, I'm afraid, even if I do have a truck that'll handle it. Finances just won't permit it... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 9 23:01:56 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 21:01:56 -0800 Subject: Unknown Honeywell tape drive - Help! In-Reply-To: <43C2CF04.20006@hachti.de> References: <43C2CF04.20006@hachti.de> Message-ID: At 10:00 PM +0100 1/9/06, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >I can get an old Honeywell type drive. But I know literally nothing >about it. Not even the model number...! > >Here is a link to a few pictures I've received today: > >http://hachti.de/honeywell-tape/ I spent time working with several Honeywell DPS-8's and DPS-6's in the early 90's. That looks to predate anything I saw at the site with the DPS-8's, and we had some pretty old equipment. What I think is interesting is the size, it's a decidedly small tape drive, on the DPS-8 we only had what I would call "full size" drives (think old Sci-Fi shows), on the first set of DPS-6's I dealt with, we had full size drives, as well, and on the last set, we simply had ones that were about 5U or 6U. I've *never* seen a 9-Track drive that size. It looks like it was intended to be used while sitting down. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Jan 9 23:16:58 2006 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:16:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Wofford Witch usage Message-ID: <4482422.1136870218883.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I notice quite a bit of activity lately on my online Wofford Witch system. If anyone has any questions about how to get around on the system, feel free to email me or to leave a message on the Wofford Witch web site. I have quite a few 1970s vintage games loaded on the system. If you log in and would like to see what games are available, you can type: DIR GAME: to get a directory listing. If any of you are serious about learning how to use the system and would like your own account instead of my guest (40,1) account, send me an email or post a message on my message board. Basic information on how to use the system can be found on the web site under Witch Documents in the Witch User Guide. This guide actually was for the original Witch back in the 1970s, but much of it applies to the Witch that I operate online via my web site. Thanks and enjoy! Ashley Carder wacarder at usit.net http://www.woffordwitch.com From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jan 9 23:30:09 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:30:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Unknown Honeywell tape drive - Help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > What I think is interesting is the size, it's a decidedly small tape > drive, on the DPS-8 we only had what I would call "full size" drives > (think old Sci-Fi shows), on the first set of DPS-6's I dealt with, > we had full size drives, as well, and on the last set, we simply had > ones that were about 5U or 6U. I've *never* seen a 9-Track drive > that size. It looks like it was intended to be used while sitting > down. I would bet that is from one of their late 1960s/early 1970s machines. They had a number of small mainframes that all sat pretty low, like really big desks. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 9 23:33:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 21:33:58 -0800 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <43C335FF.5090108@internet1.net> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601100016.ZM11511@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <43C335FF.5090108@internet1.net> Message-ID: <200601092133580390.329D0340@10.0.0.252> On 1/9/2006 at 11:20 PM C Fernandez wrote: >Normally, I wouldn't mistake aluminum for steel, but this was a well >used restaurant pizza pan that had a thick build up of carbonized >oil/grease on it, so it felt heavy enough to be steel! Just what I wrote earlier. Aluminum, zinc and magnesium all react with hot water to form a hydroxide, liberating hydrogen as a reaction product. The reason your aluminum pots don't dissolve when you boil water in them is because aluminum (and zinc and magnesium) form a thin, very tough layer of oxide which seals the metal suface from the action of the water. One of the classic freshman chemistry demonstrations is (or was) to immerse a piece of aluminum under a pool of mercury, with hot water poured on top. The aluminum has its layer of oxide removed with a bit of sandpaper and when the metal is raised out of the mercury into contact with the hot water, it reacts with the water, producing bubbles of hydrogen gas. This is also why one doesn't put out a magnesium fire with water, by the way. When a moderately strong base (such as sodium phosphate or sodium carbonate) is hydrolized in hot water, the basic solution attacks the oxide on the surface of the metal, forming a soluble salt, exposing the underlying metal to the action of the water. If the base is very strong, such as lye, the water needn't even be hot; which is how good old Drano works (nothing more than lye and aluminum granules); the reaction produces enough heat, which coupled with the action of the now-hot lye acts on grease and protein to clear blockages. All of which goes to saying why you shouldn't put aluminum, magnesium or zinc (including galvanized hardware) in your dishwasher with dishwashing detergent. Cheers, Chuck From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Jan 9 23:47:39 2006 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:47:39 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Wofford Witch usage Message-ID: <3323788.1136872059691.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Here are the LOGICAL names for the various public directories on the WITCH: GAME: = DK2:& = GAMES SOC: = DK2:$ = SOCIOLOGY MISC: = DK2:! = MISCELLANEOUS CS: = DK2:% = COMPUTER SCIENCE STAT: = DK3:$ = STATISTICS ECO: = DK3:! = ECONOMICS MATH: = DK3:% = MATH SCI: = DK3:& = SCIENCE I also thought that I had a logical LU: for Local Utilities, but I must have missed that. LU: should be mapped to DK2:(1,13). I have just added LU: as a LOGICAL and it will be available until the system goes down or until I make it permanent. Ashley Carder wacarder at usit.net http://www.woffordwitch.com From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Jan 9 23:53:58 2006 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:53:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: GAMES on the Wofford Witch Message-ID: <32399515.1136872438324.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Here are all of the games in the GAME: directory on the Witch. If anyone wants to try their hand at some 1970s games, log on and try them out. My all time favorite is GAME:ADVENT (Colossal Cave Adventure). DIR GAME: Name .Ext Size Prot Date DK2:[1,5] LIFE .MAC 49 < 60> 02-Jan-77 LIFE .SAV 9 <104> 02-Jan-77 TREK .DOC 6 < 40> 02-Jan-77 TREK .PIC 28 < 40> 02-Jan-77 TREK1 .DOC 9 < 40> 02-Jan-77 1CHECK.BAS 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 23MTCH.BAS 3 < 40> 02-Jan-77 ACEYDU.BAS 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 AMAZIN.BAS 8 < 40> 02-Jan-77 ANIML2.BAS 9 < 40> 02-Jan-77 AWARI .BAS 6 < 40> 02-Jan-77 BAGLES.BAS 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 BIG6 .BAS 8 < 40> 02-Jan-77 BLKJAC.BAS 17 < 40> 02-Jan-77 BLKJK .BAS 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 BOMBER.BAS 6 < 40> 02-Jan-77 BOUNCE.BAS 3 < 40> 02-Jan-77 BOWL .BAS 6 < 40> 02-Jan-77 BOXING.BAS 8 < 40> 02-Jan-77 BUG .BAS 13 < 40> 02-Jan-77 BULCOW.BAS 6 < 40> 02-Jan-77 BULEYE.BAS 3 < 40> 02-Jan-77 BUZZWD.BAS 6 < 40> 02-Jan-77 CHEKER.BAS 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 CHIEF .BAS 4 < 40> 02-Jan-77 CHOMP .BAS 6 < 40> 02-Jan-77 CIVILW.BAS 16 < 40> 02-Jan-77 CRAPS .BAS 6 < 40> 02-Jan-77 DEFUSE.BAS 4 < 40> 02-Jan-77 DIGIT .BAS 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 DRINKS.BAS 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 EVEN .BAS 4 < 40> 02-Jan-77 FATHER.BAS 9 < 40> 02-Jan-77 FLPFOP.BAS 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 FOOTBL.BAS 17 < 40> 02-Jan-77 FURS .BAS 12 < 40> 02-Jan-77 GEOWAR.BAS 10 < 40> 02-Jan-77 GOMOKO.BAS 4 < 40> 02-Jan-77 GUNER1.BAS 7 < 40> 02-Jan-77 GUNNER.BAS 4 < 40> 02-Jan-77 HANG .BAS 7 < 40> 02-Jan-77 HILO .BAS 2 < 40> 02-Jan-77 HIQ .BAS 8 < 40> 02-Jan-77 HMRABI.BAS 9 < 40> 02-Jan-77 HOCKEY.BAS 12 < 40> 02-Jan-77 KENO .BAS 8 < 40> 02-Jan-77 KING .BAS 19 < 40> 02-Jan-77 LIFE .BAS 4 < 40> 02-Jan-77 LIFE2 .BAS 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 MADLB2.BAS 11 < 40> 02-Jan-77 MADLIB.BAS 11 < 40> 02-Jan-77 MAGIC .BAS 6 < 40> 02-Jan-77 MATHDI.BAS 4 < 40> 02-Jan-77 MNPLYF.BAS 8 < 40> 02-Jan-77 MONPLY.BAS 16 < 40> 02-Jan-77 MUGWMP.BAS 4 < 40> 02-Jan-77 NICOMA.BAS 2 < 40> 02-Jan-77 NIM .BAS 9 < 40> 02-Jan-77 REVRSE.BAS 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 ROCKET.BAS 7 < 40> 02-Jan-77 ROCKT1.BAS 6 < 40> 02-Jan-77 ROTATE.BAS 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 ROULET.BAS 12 < 40> 02-Jan-77 SALVO .BAS 13 < 40> 02-Jan-77 SALVO1.BAS 6 < 40> 02-Jan-77 SNOOPY.BAS 7 < 40> 02-Jan-77 SPACWR.BAS 37 < 40> 02-Jan-77 SPLAT .BAS 11 < 40> 02-Jan-77 STARS .BAS 4 < 40> 02-Jan-77 STOCK .BAS 15 < 40> 02-Jan-77 TARGET.BAS 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 TICTAC.BAS 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 TOWER .BAS 8 < 40> 02-Jan-77 TRAIN .BAS 2 < 40> 02-Jan-77 TRAP .BAS 3 < 40> 02-Jan-77 TREK .BAS 32 < 40> 02-Jan-77 TREK1 .BAS 16 < 40> 02-Jan-77 TVPLOT.BAS 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 UGLY .BAS 4 < 40> 02-Jan-77 WEKDAY.BAS 7 < 40> 02-Jan-77 YAHTZY.BAS 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 ZOOP .BAS 3 < 40> 02-Jan-77 SEAWAR.BAS 14 < 40> 02-Jan-77 GOLF .BAS 13 < 40> 02-Jan-77 FOTBAL.BAS 15 < 40> 02-Jan-77 GUESS .BAS 2 < 40> 02-Jan-77 HORSES.BAS 7 < 40> 02-Jan-77 ADVTXT.TXT 126 < 40> 02-Jan-77 ADVENT.SAZ 93 <104> 02-Jan-77 LUNAR .BAS 7 < 40> 02-Jan-77 MSTMND.BAS 7 < 40> 02-Jan-77 SHIP .BAS 20 < 40> 02-Jan-77 STRKJG.BAS 42 < 40> 02-Jan-77 GRDIT .BAS 3 < 40> 02-Jan-77 SLOTS .BAS 6 < 40> 02-Jan-77 SHRINK.BAS 6 < 40> 02-Jan-77 PIZZA .BAS 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 POET .BAS 3 < 40> 02-Jan-77 POETRY.BAS 11 < 40> 02-Jan-77 POKER .BAS 15 < 40> 02-Jan-77 CHANGE.BAS 3 < 40> 02-Jan-77 LETTER.BAS 2 < 40> 02-Jan-77 GERMAN.BAS 6 < 40> 02-Jan-77 GERMAN.RAW 14 < 40> 02-Jan-77 PICTUR.BAS 7 < 40> 02-Jan-77 WORD .BAS 3 < 40> 02-Jan-77 GAMES .BAS 11 < 40> 02-Jan-77 SPCINV.SAV 10 <104> 02-Jan-77 PACMAN.SAV 28 <104> 02-Jan-77 ADVENT.DOC 6 < 40> 02-Jan-77 ADVENT.HLP 8 < 40> 02-Jan-77 RUSROU.BAS 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 SWAMI .BAS 8 < 40> 02-Jan-77 ANDY .PIC 11 < 40> 02-Jan-77 ANNIE .PIC 8 < 40> 02-Jan-77 CATCAL.PIC 117 < 40> 02-Jan-77 COYOTE.PIC 8 < 40> 02-Jan-77 ENTERP.PIC 29 < 40> 02-Jan-77 GIRL0 .PIC 37 < 40> 02-Jan-77 GIRL1 .PIC 19 < 40> 02-Jan-77 GIRL2 .PIC 21 < 40> 02-Jan-77 LOVE .PIC 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 MONA .PIC 63 < 40> 02-Jan-77 PINUP .PIC 34 < 40> 02-Jan-77 PLANE .PIC 9 < 40> 02-Jan-77 PUSCAT.PIC 10 < 40> 02-Jan-77 SNOOPY.PIC 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 SPOOK .PIC 11 < 40> 02-Jan-77 TWEETY.PIC 17 < 40> 02-Jan-77 BATNUM.BAS 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 HAMURS.BAS 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 HUN .BAS 10 < 40> 02-Jan-77 HURKLE.BAS 3 < 40> 02-Jan-77 MADLIP.BAS 11 < 40> 02-Jan-77 MARKET.BAS 16 < 40> 02-Jan-77 MAZE .BAS 4 < 40> 02-Jan-77 ADVNT2.DOC 5 < 40> 02-Jan-77 ADVENT.FOR 7 < 40> 02-Jan-77 LUNAR2.BAS 7 < 40> 02-Jan-77 CUBE .BAS 9 < 40> 01-Jan-77 PATHWY.BAS 14 < 40> 01-Jan-77 ANIMAL.BAS 4 < 40> 01-Jan-77 ADVENT.TXT 112 < 60> 01-Jan-77 ADVENT.DAZ 113 < 40> 17-Dec-77 ADVENT.CPY 5 < 40> 17-Dec-77 WUMPUS.BAS 13 < 40> 05-Jan-78 ADVENT.DAT 116 < 40> 14-Mar-80 ADVNTR.BAC 59C <232> 15-Mar-78 ADVENT.BAC 47C <232> 17-Mar-78 DUNGEO.SAV 215 <104> 21-Jun-99 DTEXT .DAT 441 < 40> 21-Jun-98 DINDX .DAT 97 < 40> 21-Jun-98 Total of 2942 blocks in 152 files in DK2:[1,5] Ashley Carder wacarder at usit.net http://www.woffordwitch.com From fernande at internet1.net Tue Jan 10 00:22:10 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 01:22:10 -0500 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <200601092133580390.329D0340@10.0.0.252> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601100016.ZM11511@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <43C335FF.5090108@internet1.net> <200601092133580390.329D0340@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43C35292.8060508@internet1.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > One of the classic freshman chemistry demonstrations is (or was) to immerse > a piece of aluminum under a pool of mercury, with hot water poured on top. Our local city high school was closed for about 3 days while a Hazmat team cleaned up a dropped vile of mercury. Some kid found it and brought it to school, then dropped it by accident! I'm not sure if that was a massive over reaction, or not. Is mercury really that much of a hazzard? > All of which goes to saying why you shouldn't put aluminum, magnesium or > zinc (including galvanized hardware) in your dishwasher with dishwashing > detergent. That is consistent with my results with computer hardware. My pans are iron, so they don't really get washed in the traditional sense. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jan 10 00:27:39 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 01:27:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <43C35292.8060508@internet1.net> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601100016.ZM11511@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <43C335FF.5090108@internet1.net> <200601092133580390.329D0340@10.0.0.252> <43C35292.8060508@internet1.net> Message-ID: <200601100633.BAA02177@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Our local city high school was closed for about 3 days while a Hazmat > team cleaned up a dropped [vial] of mercury. Some kid found it and > brought it to school, then dropped it by accident! I'm not sure if > that was a massive over reaction, or not. Is mercury really that > much of a hazzard? I'd say it was a severe overreaction, as far as the actual hazard from the mercury itself goes - not that I'm any hazmat specialist, but given the historical damage from mercury and the amount of mercury it took to produce it, I have trouble getting too concerned over one small vial of the stuff. I note you signed as being in the USA, though, so it probably was not an overreaction as far as the legal hazard of responding with anything milder goes, unfortunately. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jan 10 00:35:45 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 01:35:45 -0500 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110012030.03949770@mail.30below.com> The good news: Dave Dunfield has made some changes/additions to ImageDisk (now version 1.09 and copyright 2006), so it's officially not an orphan. :-)) Whoohoo! Thanks, Dave! Now the bad news: I thought I could "cheat the system" by running ImageDisk on Windows 2000, as I have some Tu^H^HWordPerfect 6.1 disks I needed to try to image. Yes, Right there in program documentation it says it won't run on any Winders OS that uses good ol' HAL - that's the Hardware Abstraction Layer for y'all that run the "good" OS's. ;-) Well, I tried to run it in a Winders98 install under VirtualPC under Winders 2000. I was hoping that VirtualPC would open up the HAL enough on floppy access to allow ImageDisk to do it's job. Well, it still didn't work. It tried awfully hard, but the HAL just confused the bejeebers out of it. (At times, ID thought it was reading a Single Density disk!) This is *not* a dig on the program, I *knew* I was asking way more than I should at the beginning. I was *hoping* to have good news if someone wanted to run it on a newer M$ OS that didn't suck nearly so bad as WinME. I guess I'll have to dig my old smellyron (er, celeron) 533 system out of mothballs which runs 98 & install/run it on there. It's just that I'm a bit space-limited right now, and convincing the wife that I need room for a permanent CoCo setup *and* yet another IBM are slim (and at this rate, there's *no* chance for a little space for the Amiga 4000T in the near future... :-/ ). [[ Yes, I know there's a rawrite utility for NT. Yes, I've already tried it. Yes, I'm getting CRC errors. No, I'm not going to swap 12 floppy drives around hoping to get one that can read 'em... :-/ ]] Ah well, ya can't blame a guy fer trying, eh? ;-) Thanks again, Dave! Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 10 01:58:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 23:58:38 -0800 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <43C35292.8060508@internet1.net> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601100016.ZM11511@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <43C335FF.5090108@internet1.net> <200601092133580390.329D0340@10.0.0.252> <43C35292.8060508@internet1.net> Message-ID: <200601092358380067.332172E2@10.0.0.252> On 1/10/2006 at 1:22 AM C Fernandez wrote: >\ >Our local city high school was closed for about 3 days while a Hazmat >team cleaned up a dropped vile of mercury. >Some kid found it and brought it to school, then dropped it by accident! I'm not sure if that >was a massive over reaction, or not. Is mercury really that much of a hazzard? I don't know--it's not the metallic mercury that's terribly reactive, but vapors aren't awfully safe. There are safe ways to clean up the metallic mercury--binding to a more active metal is one. Still, it's worthwhile considering that calomel (mercurous chloride) was used since the 1600's as as a purgative and treatment for yellow fever in humans. Mercuric chloride (or corrisive sublimate) was long used as an antiseptic. Before arsenic was used as a treatment for syphilis, mercury was used. Mercury salts were extensively used as fungicides and insecticides. And of course, you're familiar with mercury switches and thermometers, in addition to the use of mercury in lighting devices, such as mercury-vapor lamps and fluorescent lamps. Old photographic tintypes and daguerrotypes were developed by fuming with mercury. In some ways, I think we're trying to be too safe. Certainly, too much mercury will rot your brain; witness the old saying "Mad as a hatter" from the practice of preparing rabbit skins using mercurous nitrate for toughening and removal of the hairs (called carroting) in order to turn them into felt. Many workers were poisoned by the mercury. But in general, we've always had mercury in one form or another all around us and I've never heard of anyone dying from ingesting the mercury in an old-style fever thermometer The same goes for lead. In addition to the applications of lead-based solder in electronics, the same has been used for a couple of centuries to construct brass musical instruments. The water main that fed my parents' house was made of lead (that use dates back to the Romans, whence comes our word "plumber"). Lead paints were used as durable coatings for everything from battleships to bridges Sometimes I wonder if tomorrow's lead will be today's mercury--that is, schools will be closed for three days because some child brought in a fishing sinker to show and tell.. Maybe I'm too old to deliver a modern opinion on how much exposure is safe. Heck, I still miss carbon tet and zinc chromate. Cheers, Chuck From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Tue Jan 10 03:17:18 2006 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:17:18 +1300 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com><10601100016.ZM11511@mindy.dunnington.plus.com><43C335FF.5090108@internet1.net><200601092133580390.329D0340@10.0.0.252><43C35292.8060508@internet1.net> <200601092358380067.332172E2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <059f01c615c6$a75325f0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> > Maybe I'm too old to deliver a modern opinion on how much exposure > is safe. > Heck, I still miss carbon tet and zinc chromate. > > Cheers, > Chuck Well said, Chuck. I still have a pint or so of carbon tet left and maybe two or three gallons of seakrome.( it's getting more solid each year that passes) Every now and then my wife spots the seakrome and tells me I should get rid of it - "You'll poison someone if you paint anything with that stuff". I just smile and say quietly, "I know" Cheers DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.16/224 - Release Date: 9/01/2006 From Laurence.Cuffe at ucd.ie Tue Jan 10 06:09:32 2006 From: Laurence.Cuffe at ucd.ie (Laurence Cuffe) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:09:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <10601091022.ZM9963@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B3A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601091022.ZM9963@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Pete Turnbull Date: Monday, January 9, 2006 10:22 am Subject: Re: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher > > > Because of the above 2 items you might want to use "hand" > dishwashing > > > detergent, but not much since it will foam, > > > > I would suggest crystal soda, it is a good detergent and not overly > > caustic, and the rinsing cycle will get rid of residues. > > Ammonia solution would work, but would be quite smelly. > > Some of you seem to have slightly odd ideas about detergents :-) > > I know of no dishwasher detergent that contains chlorine (which is a > gas) nor large amounts of chlorine-based bleaches. (Mild) > Bleaches and > brightners are common in *clothes* detergents where there are good for > stain removal, but they're *not* good in dishwashers, where the bleach > would tend to fade patterns on crockery. Therefore dishwasher > detergent manufacturers use only very small amounts, if any, and > they're usually oxygen-based. > > More to the point though, they don't contain silicon dioxide, at least > not any I've come across (btw it's silicon, not silicone). They might > feel gritty, but that's not sand, it's solid detergent. Ok To start with I'm no expert. Having said that I feel free to pontificate! Dish washer detergents have changed considerably over the past fifteen years in response to concerns about the eutrification of waterways as a results of detergent contamination. This has resulted in a very dramatic drop in the phosphate content. A dishwasher detergent has to shape up or "polish" the incoming water supply and combine with and remove the grease etc present. To this end they may contain silicon dioxide in the form of cage compounds which capture metals etc out of the incoming water and prevent a metallic stain building up on dishes as the water is dried on them repeatedly over a period of time. To detect the presence of these try and repeat your experiment of dissolving dishwasher detergent completely, its a lot harder now than it used to be. As you so rightly state chlorine based bleaches are rare in dishwasher detergent, however high temperature based Oxygen bleaches are becoming more common to break up grease etc. To test for these add close to boiling water to dishwasher detergent and you will normally find that a large amount of gas is released. Finally the very dramatic corrosion that can occur with aluminium appears to be electrolytic in nature and is generally strongly promoted when the aluminium is in contact with another metal such as stainless steel cutlery. This is the basis of one method used to polish silver, where you line a vessel with tinfoil (aluminium) and place the silverware in there with plenty of hot water and a little detergent or preferably washing soda. My 2c. All the best Laurence Cuffe > Finally, detergent won't damage copper, aluminium, steel, or other > metal. Water will. Detergents can remove oils and other thin-film > coating that might protect metal, so it is wise to dry things > carefullyafter getting them wet because water and air can cause > corrosion, but > it's not the detergent that does that, it's the water. Well, actually > it's the air, but water permits various electrolytic reactions that > hasten the process. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jan 10 02:04:59 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:04:59 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk under Win2k (was: Thanks again, Dave!) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110012030.03949770@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20060110121152.ZNNG15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Now the bad news: I thought I could "cheat the system" by running ImageDisk > on Windows 2000, as I have some WordPerfect 6.1 disks I needed to try > to image. Yes, Right there in program documentation it says it won't run > on any Winders OS that uses good ol' HAL - that's the Hardware Abstraction > Layer for y'all that run the "good" OS's. ;-) Well, I tried to run it in a > Winders98 install under VirtualPC under Winders 2000. I was hoping that > VirtualPC would open up the HAL enough on floppy access to allow ImageDisk > to do it's job. Well, it still didn't work. It tried awfully hard, but the > HAL just confused the bejeebers out of it. (At times, ID thought it was > reading a Single Density disk!) IMD needs: - unrestricted access to the floppy disk controller hardware. - Nobody else messing with the FDC hardware/interrupts while it is active. - to not be held-up while some other task decides to hog the CPU for a little while (there are real-time critical aspects to the analysis phase) Winders 2K fails on pretty much all of the above. I haven't tried VPC, but I would expect that the low-level floppy control remains with the host OS (winders) and it's virtualized just enough to read/wrote PC disks. I also would not expect it to stabalie the real-time charactistics of the system. The good news is that IMD is tiny and can run from DOS booted off a diskette. There's a bit of a catch-22 in that you can't write the image file to the floppy while you are doing weird things to the FDC to read a foregn format disk, however the easy work-around for that is to use a RAMdisk. So what you do is make up a DOS boot disk which defines a RAMdisk and unpacks a few necessary commands onto it (including IMD), then you can boot it and read disk images(s). At the end of the session, you format a blank floppy and ZIP the images onto it from the RAMdisk. Then you can boot winblows and slurp the files off the floppy. If you have a network card that you can get 16-bit drivers for, you can put a client on the boot disk and IMD the images directly into a network directory. If there's interest, I can put together a boot disk image which does this. Another option if you have any unpartitioned space on your HD is to just put on a small DOS partition. Either use a boot manager to boot it directly, or boot a floppy and switch to it - either way, you can pull the files off to winders later. >I guess I'll have to dig my old smellyron (er, celeron) 533 system out of >mothballs which runs 98 & install/run it on there. It's just that I'm a bit >space-limited right now, and convincing the wife that I need room for a >permanent CoCo setup *and* yet another IBM are slim (and at this rate, >there's *no* chance for a little space for the Amiga 4000T in the near >future... :-/ ). Btw - you can reduce the space requirements a lot by using a KVM switch . (I put one on my test-bench last year and eliminated two monitors/keyboards - very handy). Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Jan 10 06:20:47 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:20:47 -0500 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110012030.03949770@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110012030.03949770@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20060110072047.1c3c8e1b.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 01:35:45 -0500 Roger Merchberger wrote: > The good news: Dave Dunfield has made some changes/additions to ImageDisk > (now version 1.09 and copyright 2006), so it's officially not an orphan. > :-)) Whoohoo! > > Thanks, Dave! > > Now the bad news: I thought I could "cheat the system" by running ImageDisk > on Windows 2000, as I have some Tu^H^HWordPerfect 6.1 disks I needed to try > to image. Yes, Right there in program documentation it says it won't run > on any Winders OS that uses good ol' HAL - that's the Hardware Abstraction > Layer for y'all that run the "good" OS's. ;-) Well, I tried to run it in a > Winders98 install under VirtualPC under Winders 2000. I was hoping that > VirtualPC would open up the HAL enough on floppy access to allow ImageDisk > to do it's job. Well, it still didn't work. It tried awfully hard, but the > HAL just confused the bejeebers out of it. (At times, ID thought it was > reading a Single Density disk!) > > This is *not* a dig on the program, I *knew* I was asking way more than I > should at the beginning. I was *hoping* to have good news if someone > wanted to run it on a newer M$ OS that didn't suck nearly so bad as WinME. > > I guess I'll have to dig my old smellyron (er, celeron) 533 system out of > mothballs which runs 98 & install/run it on there. It's just that I'm a bit > space-limited right now, and convincing the wife that I need room for a > permanent CoCo setup *and* yet another IBM are slim (and at this rate, > there's *no* chance for a little space for the Amiga 4000T in the near > future... :-/ ). > > [[ Yes, I know there's a rawrite utility for NT. Yes, I've already tried > it. Yes, I'm getting CRC errors. No, I'm not going to swap 12 floppy drives > around hoping to get one that can read 'em... :-/ ]] > > Ah well, ya can't blame a guy fer trying, eh? ;-) > You might consider getting one of the lower cost two-way KVM switches. That would allow you to switch your single keyboard, video, and mouse between your two PC systems. Then all you need to find space for is the second PC chassis itself, not a whole second system. A good electronic-switching KVM switch should cost less than $30 if you look around. From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jan 10 07:14:32 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:14:32 +0100 (CET) Subject: Unknown Honeywell tape drive - Help! In-Reply-To: References: <43C2CF04.20006@hachti.de> Message-ID: <14255.217.10.50.85.1136898872.squirrel@webmail.hachti.de> Hi, > I spent time working with several Honeywell DPS-8's and DPS-6's in > the early 90's. That looks to predate anything I saw at the site > with the DPS-8's, and we had some pretty old equipment. It must be from the late 60's or early 70's, not newer. > What I think is interesting is the size, it's a decidedly small tape > drive, Do you think it has a smaller reel size, too? When I was looking at the pic I could not esteem if the reel size is reduced, too. > I've *never* seen a 9-Track drive > that size. It looks like it was intended to be used while sitting > down. So I will rescue it. Regards, Philipp ... Still looking for more information...! From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Jan 10 07:49:12 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 05:49:12 -0800 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <200601091126390470.3070FEFD@10.0.0.252> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200601091126390470.3070FEFD@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43C3BB58.9010404@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If I felt a need to wash some electronics, I'd do it with warm or hot water > and a simple detergent without added salts. I would recommend washing "by hand" as well. The less time equipment is exposed to water, the less moisture infiltration of supposedly "sealed" components will occur. There are detergents specifically designed for washing circuit bords, e.g., Alconox Detergent 8, that avoid corrosive alkalais and residues. http://www.alconox.com/static/section_top/gen_catalog.asp#Anchor-56867 Alconox, Inc. - Product Catalog Putting a keyboard in the dishwasher doesn't strike me as a particularly good idea. Unless you disassemble the keyboard anyway, there will be water trapped inside that will dry out very slowly. I clean a keyboard by pulling all the keycaps and washing them separately in dish detergent, and clean the area formerly under the keys with isopropanol, cotton swabs, and a detailing brush. This is good for the usual sorts of gunk that accumulates on a keyboard, but perhaps not for spilled coffee, etc. I have an excellent tool for pulling keycaps that came with a Northgate Omnikey keyboard. There are two wire loops attached to a handle. You slip the loops over the key and they hook underneath, allowing you to pull the keycap straight up and off. Very quick and tidy. --Bill From James at jdfogg.com Tue Jan 10 08:10:14 2006 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:10:14 -0500 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B75@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Sometimes I wonder if tomorrow's lead will be today's > mercury--that is, schools will be closed for three days > because some child brought in a fishing sinker to show and tell.. That day is close, lead fishing weights are banned in some states because waterfowl, especially Loons, were being killed off from ingesting lead weights while foraging on the bottom of lakes. > Maybe I'm too old to deliver a modern opinion on how much > exposure is safe. > Heck, I still miss carbon tet and zinc chromate. I miss DDT. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jan 10 08:19:04 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:19:04 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk under Win2k In-Reply-To: <20060110121152.ZNNG15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060110121152.ZNNG15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <43C3C258.8070509@gjcp.net> Dave Dunfield wrote: > > IMD needs: > - unrestricted access to the floppy disk controller hardware. > - Nobody else messing with the FDC hardware/interrupts while it is > active. > - to not be held-up while some other task decides to hog the CPU for > a little while (there are real-time critical aspects to the analysis phase) > > Winders 2K fails on pretty much all of the above. I haven't tried VPC, but Matter of interest, and I haven't got time to try it, but will it work in FreeDOS? Gordon. From charlesmorris at direcway.com Tue Jan 10 08:24:35 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (charlesmorris at direcway.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:24:35 -0500 Subject: Non-random numbers (SIMH PDP-8)? Message-ID: <29d0ba629cf28d.29cf28d29d0ba6@direcway.com> I was playing blackjack (BASIC program) on SIMH with my OS/8 RL02 image. I noticed that every time I played the game the cards drawn were identical, both by the dealer and myself! A loop to print RND(0) ten times always shows the same ten numbers... doesn't sound very random to me :) Is this an artifact of SIMH, or BASIC? (Will it go away when I run the program on the real 8/A)? thanks Charles From wacarder at earthlink.net Tue Jan 10 08:29:59 2006 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:29:59 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Non-random numbers (SIMH PDP-8)? Message-ID: <18360707.1136903399805.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I don't know about the OS8 PDP-8 BASIC, but on the RSTS/E PDP-11 Basic-Plus, the same sequence of random numbers would always be returned unless you used the RANDOMIZE statement, which changes the random number seed. If your PDP-8 OS8 BASIC supports it, add a RANDOMIZE statement and you should then get a different series of random numbers each time. Ashley -----Original Message----- >From: charlesmorris at direcway.com >Sent: Jan 10, 2006 9:24 AM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Non-random numbers (SIMH PDP-8)? > >I was playing blackjack (BASIC program) on SIMH with my OS/8 RL02 image. I noticed that every time I played the game the cards drawn were identical, both by the dealer and myself! A loop to print RND(0) ten times always shows the same ten numbers... doesn't sound very random to me :) > >Is this an artifact of SIMH, or BASIC? (Will it go away when I run the program on the real 8/A)? > >thanks >Charles > > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jan 10 08:31:25 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:31:25 +0000 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B75@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B75@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <43C3C53D.5060809@gjcp.net> James Fogg wrote: > I miss DDT. Ob. On-topic: I always preferred ODT anyway. Gordon. From James at jdfogg.com Tue Jan 10 08:34:50 2006 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:34:50 -0500 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B76@sbs.jdfogg.com> > James Fogg wrote: > > > I miss DDT. > Ob. On-topic: I always preferred ODT anyway. > > Gordon. > DDT *is* on-topic, it's the debugger in CP/M. :-) From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Tue Jan 10 08:57:06 2006 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:57:06 -0600 Subject: Paul Allen opens PDP Planet web site Message-ID: There is a short article on the site at http://www.theregister.com/2006/01/10/allen_pdp/ The site is at http://www.pdpplanet.com/ From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Jan 10 09:12:48 2006 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:12:48 -0500 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110012030.03949770@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: I second the thanks! To a "hints" list I would add that I had some trouble finding a "good" floppy controller to use with it. After going through 3 Pentium and 2 486 motherboards with no luck, and the floppy controllers on two different floppy/IDE cards, I finally tried the floppy controller on an Adaptec 1522 SCSI cards which works like a charm. From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Jan 10 09:13:01 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:13:01 -0600 Subject: Paul Allen opens PDP Planet web site In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C3CEFD.4090106@pacbell.net> Robert Feldman wrote: > There is a short article on the site at > http://www.theregister.com/2006/01/10/allen_pdp/ > > The site is at http://www.pdpplanet.com/ http://www.pdpplanet.com/TemplateMain.aspx?contentId=7 The link to the Wofford Witch page is there, explaining the uptick in activity on that page that Ashley Carder noted. From news at computercollector.com Tue Jan 10 09:19:02 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:19:02 -0500 Subject: Paul Allen opens PDP Planet web site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c615f9$3181fbc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Speaking of which, I'm interviewing Paul this afternoon for the new issue of Computer Collector Newsletter. Update to be posted later today... - Evan -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert Feldman Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 9:57 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Paul Allen opens PDP Planet web site There is a short article on the site at http://www.theregister.com/2006/01/10/allen_pdp/ The site is at http://www.pdpplanet.com/ From wacarder at earthlink.net Tue Jan 10 09:27:17 2006 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:27:17 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Paul Allen opens PDP Planet web site Message-ID: <11264072.1136906837839.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> -----Original Message----- >From: Jim Battle >Sent: Jan 10, 2006 10:13 AM >To: General Discussion at null, On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts , null at null >Subject: Re: Paul Allen opens PDP Planet web site > >Robert Feldman wrote: >> There is a short article on the site at >> http://www.theregister.com/2006/01/10/allen_pdp/ >> >> The site is at http://www.pdpplanet.com/ > >http://www.pdpplanet.com/TemplateMain.aspx?contentId=7 > >The link to the Wofford Witch page is there, explaining the uptick in activity >on that page that Ashley Carder noted. > Perhaps I should spend some time beefing up my site, adding more technical info (which I've been intending to do, but just have not done), and adding more information about how to find your way around on the system. Ashley From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jan 10 04:29:13 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (dave04a at dunfield.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:29:13 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk under Win2k In-Reply-To: <43C3C258.8070509@gjcp.net> References: <20060110121152.ZNNG15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200601101535.k0AFZO3C030710@mail3.magma.ca> > Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > > > IMD needs: > > - unrestricted access to the floppy disk controller hardware. > > - Nobody else messing with the FDC hardware/interrupts while it is > > active. > > - to not be held-up while some other task decides to hog the CPU for > > a little while (there are real-time critical aspects to the analysis phase) > > > > Winders 2K fails on pretty much all of the above. I haven't tried VPC, but > > Matter of interest, and I haven't got time to try it, but will it work > in FreeDOS? I have not tried it (don't have FD installed anywhere), however I don't see why it would not - as long as FD leaves the FDC alone when it's not accessing it it should be OK (I access the FDC by direct manipulation - the only DOS functions I use specifically relating to the FDC are get/set the interrupt vector, and the only BIOS function I use is "reset disk system" which I do just before I exit). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jan 10 04:33:21 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (dave04a at dunfield.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:33:21 +0000 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110012030.03949770@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200601101539.k0AFdWAD002093@mail1.magma.ca> > I second the thanks! > > To a "hints" list I would add that I had some trouble finding a "good" > floppy controller to use with it. After going through 3 Pentium and 2 > 486 motherboards with no luck, and the floppy controllers on two different > floppy/IDE cards, I finally tried the floppy controller on an Adaptec > 1522 SCSI cards which works like a charm. Most PC FDC's are limited in their ability to access formats not native to the PC - This is not a limitation of the ImageDisk program, it is a limitation of the FDC implemented on most PC's. I've heard from a few people that the Adaptec cards work well. I've had good luck personally with the FDCs on both of the Intel Mainboards that I have, as well as one Aopen board (although all the other Aopen boards I've tried don't fare so well). Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Jan 10 10:16:22 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:16:22 +0100 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110012030.03949770@mail.30below.com> <200601101539.k0AFdWAD002093@mail1.magma.ca> Message-ID: <000801c61601$32fc4610$2101a8c0@finans> > > To a "hints" list I would add that I had some trouble finding a "good" > > floppy controller to use with it. > > Most PC FDC's are limited in their ability to access formats not native > to the PC - This is not a limitation of the ImageDisk program, it is a > limitation of the FDC implemented on most PC's. I've heard from a > few people that the Adaptec cards work well. That is correct. I have more than once had my fingers in PC's which could not read MS-DOS 320K disks, not to speak of 160K. You could also try to find a MicroSolutions Compaticard IV. I once managed to create an 8" DSSD disk containing MS-DOS 3.something. The PC could even boot from it! I wonder if there would be enough interest in that card to make a small production run feasible. According to http://www.micro-solutions.com/ they are no longer in business, so maybe a reverse engineering thing might be possible ? Nico From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 10 10:45:36 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:45:36 -0700 Subject: Calcomp 1044 plotter Message-ID: Does anyone know any details on this or where a manual can be downloaded? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 10 11:01:15 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:01:15 -0800 Subject: Unknown Honeywell tape drive - Help! In-Reply-To: <14255.217.10.50.85.1136898872.squirrel@webmail.hachti.de> References: <43C2CF04.20006@hachti.de> <14255.217.10.50.85.1136898872.squirrel@webmail.hachti.de> Message-ID: At 2:14 PM +0100 1/10/06, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > What I think is interesting is the size, it's a decidedly small tape >> drive, >Do you think it has a smaller reel size, too? When I was looking at >the pic I could not esteem if >the reel size is reduced, too. It's really hard to tell, but based on the picture with a person standing next to it, I *think* that it takes either normal sized tapes, or slightly smaller than normal sized. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 10 11:56:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:56:46 -0800 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <000801c61601$32fc4610$2101a8c0@finans> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110012030.03949770@mail.30below.com> <200601101539.k0AFdWAD002093@mail1.magma.ca> <000801c61601$32fc4610$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <200601100956460831.3545114B@10.0.0.252> On 1/10/2006 at 5:16 PM Nico de Jong wrote: >I wonder if there would be enough interest in that card to make a small >production run feasible. According to http://www.micro-solutions.com/ they >are no longer in business, so maybe a reverse engineering thing might be >possible ? You know, many of the "Floppy Tape" QIC backup accelerator cards are nothing more than floppy controllers running on non-standard (i.e. not 3Fx, IRQ 6, DMA 2) ports. At most, replacing the crystal is necessary. Observations about the floppy interface in NT/2K/XP are accurate. The native floppy driver is hard-wired to expect Microsoft-format floppies, even to having the boot sector information being critical. (Try clobbering a boot sector and then reading an otherwise valid diskette--you'll get a general failure). Sydex has quietly made a tidy side business of licensing a kernel mode floppy driver for NT and 2K/XP (in addittion to Win9x VxDs) to firms needing CP/M (using a DLL interface) or other direct access (driver access) to "alien" diskette types. We're currently working on a Vista driver. Operations like "sync to the index hole and read a bunch of IDs nonstop" are atomic functions with the driver. While this will keep most of our customers happy for the short term, I expect that floppy-less Windows PCs will shortly become the rule. We're actively investigating the possibility of a USB add-on floppy drive that will be able to handle most formats. I also anticipate that FDC chips will become rare birds, so implementation of some sort of FDC through software of FPGA would seem to be the wise course. I've investigated downloading special firmware into floppy USB chips, such as that used on the Teac FD-05U, but Teac has not been forthcoming on the controller chip details being used in any particular model. Cheers, Chuck From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jan 10 11:58:41 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:58:41 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk under Win2k (was: Thanks again, Dave!) In-Reply-To: <20060110121152.ZNNG15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110012030.03949770@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110123848.01be8c10@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Dave Dunfield may have mentioned these words: This discussion is purely for academics... ;-) > > Now the bad news: I thought I could "cheat the system" by running > ImageDisk > > on Windows 2000, as I have some WordPerfect 6.1 disks I needed to try > > to image. Yes, Right there in program documentation it says it won't run > > on any Winders OS that uses good ol' HAL - that's the Hardware Abstraction > > Layer for y'all that run the "good" OS's. ;-) Well, I tried to run it in a > > Winders98 install under VirtualPC under Winders 2000. I was hoping that > > VirtualPC would open up the HAL enough on floppy access to allow ImageDisk > > to do it's job. Well, it still didn't work. It tried awfully hard, but the > > HAL just confused the bejeebers out of it. (At times, ID thought it was > > reading a Single Density disk!) > >IMD needs: > - unrestricted access to the floppy disk controller hardware. Which the HAL doesn't provide. :-/ > - Nobody else messing with the FDC hardware That might be possible, but... > - /interrupts while it is active. There's certainly no guarantee for that. > - to not be held-up while some other task decides to hog the CPU for > a little while (there are real-time critical aspects to the analysis > phase) At least on this, I could *guarantee*... I have a dual-processor box (2xAthlon MP 2600+), so any processes wanting to hog 1 CPU won't affect the other. ;-) >Winders 2K fails on pretty much all of the above. I haven't tried VPC, but >I would expect that the low-level floppy control remains with the host OS >(winders) and it's virtualized just enough to read/wrote PC disks. I also >would not expect it to stabalie the real-time charactistics of the system. That is perzactly what happened. It was worth a try, tho... ;-) >[[snippety of a) ramdisk, b) network and what I might do is c) rebuild one >partition to have a small FAT16 area for DOS... ]] >Btw - you can reduce the space requirements a lot by using a KVM >switch . (I put one on my test-bench last year and eliminated two >monitors/keyboards - very handy). Yup. Got one on my desk at work - but my space & power requirements at home for the most part belie the area for a second micro-tower, and KVM switches don't help with the CoCo[1] or Amiga problems... ;-) I should take a picture of my desk Now all I need is more time to tinker... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] There should be a CoCo-RGB -> VGA upconverter available soon, and with an AT keyboard interface for the CoCo, a KVM switch might be useful in the CoCo world soon... Is there an Amiga -> AT keyboard adapter? Isn't the Amiga keyboard pretty much an AT keyboard but with different scan codes and pinout? -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 10 12:07:12 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:07:12 -0800 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B3A@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601091022.ZM9963@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200601101007120100.354E9BC0@10.0.0.252> On 1/10/2006 at 12:09 PM Laurence Cuffe wrote: >Dish washer detergents have changed considerably over the past fifteen >years in response to concerns about the eutrification of waterways as a >results of detergent contamination. This has resulted in a very >dramatic drop in the phosphate content. To be sure, phosphate is no longer a primary content, but a quick perusal of MSDS for some common brands used in the USA discloses that sodium carbonate or sodium perborate (borax) seems to be used as a substitute--along with the legal limit of phosphate. The chemistry is basically the same--sodium carbonate hydrolysis in the presence of very hot water results in a very basic solution. Said solution will attack aluminum, zinc and magnesium quite readily--as well as saponify grease. I would believe that basic chemistry would have changed if detergents used in automatic dishwashers no longer required very hot water, but that doesn't seem to be the case. At least I'm aware of no dishwasher detergent that allows use of cold water. If you're in doubt about any preparation, it's always a good idea to consult the MSDS. Manufacturers are required to make it available to the public by law. Quite often, you'll be surprised at what you find. Cheers, Chuck From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jan 10 12:29:35 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:29:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: ImageDisk under Win2k Message-ID: <200601101829.KAA26678@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: dave04a at dunfield.com > >> Dave Dunfield wrote: >> >> > >> > IMD needs: >> > - unrestricted access to the floppy disk controller hardware. >> > - Nobody else messing with the FDC hardware/interrupts while it is >> > active. >> > - to not be held-up while some other task decides to hog the CPU for >> > a little while (there are real-time critical aspects to the analysis phase) >> > >> > Winders 2K fails on pretty much all of the above. I haven't tried VPC, but >> >> Matter of interest, and I haven't got time to try it, but will it work >> in FreeDOS? > >I have not tried it (don't have FD installed anywhere), however I don't see why >it would not - as long as FD leaves the FDC alone when it's not accessing it it >should be OK (I access the FDC by direct manipulation - the only DOS >functions I use specifically relating to the FDC are get/set the interrupt vector, >and the only BIOS function I use is "reset disk system" which I do just before >I exit). Hi Dave How do you deal with DMA? On my code I needed to setup the DMA controller as well. Dwight > >Regards, >Dave >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Vintage computing equipment collector. From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jan 10 12:33:37 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:33:37 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk under Win2k (was: Thanks again, Dave!) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110123848.01be8c10@mail.30below.com> References: <20060110121152.ZNNG15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060110012030.03949770@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110132227.03a42e60@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Roger Merchberger may have mentioned these words: Yea, I are schizophrenic... ;-) >>[[snippety of a) ramdisk, b) network and what I might do is c) rebuild >>one partition to have a small FAT16 area for DOS... ]] A DOS-bootable USB key would be really neat for IMD; but if not, if anyone (like me) has Norton Ghost 2003, it will build a boot-floppy with both USB & Firewire drivers. Boot from floppy, IMD on either firewire drive, USB key or drive, make images anywhere you want... Doesn't sound like a half-bad idear, eh? [1] One question: Can IMD deal with FAT32 partitions? (As in, if DOS gives it a drive letter, can IMD write an image file to it?) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] Dave - I am not making fun of the fact you're Canadian. I've lived most of my life in northern Michigan on the Canadian border (The light from the Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario skyline gives me enough ambient light to navigate my bedroom - that's *how* close... ;-) so I say eh? too. ;-) Oh, and my mom's mom was raised in Kentucky, so I say y'all and thang too. ;^> -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Jan 10 03:02:12 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:02:12 +0000 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 09 Jan 2006 22:16:38 GMT." Message-ID: <200601100902.JAA16399@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tony Duell said: > For the people across the Pond, AVO, of course, comes from the initals of > Amps Volts, Ohms. It was the brand name of one of the first multimeters > in the UK (the 'Universal AVOmeter' was around before WW2 I think, It's advertised in the Admiralty Handbook of Wireless Telegraphy, 1938. Price 16 Guineas - a lot of money in those days. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 10 13:03:32 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:03:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <43C3C53D.5060809@gjcp.net> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B75@sbs.jdfogg.com> <43C3C53D.5060809@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20060110110247.W18804@shell.lmi.net> > I miss DDT. DEBUG.COM is usually adequate. From v.slyngstad at verizon.net Tue Jan 10 13:09:57 2006 From: v.slyngstad at verizon.net (Vince Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:09:57 -0800 Subject: IBM DASD and Unit Record equipment on eBay Message-ID: <024f01c61619$73491280$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Hi, I see that gold-snipper has listed a pile of old IBM unit-record and DASD equipment on eBay. (The category is Vintage Computing Products => IBM.) The prices are not low, but then again it is working stuff, not scrap. Looks like he's got a 4381 and all the trimmings. Vince (I'm not him, and I don't collect mainframe equipment, so you probably now know more about it than I do.) From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jan 10 08:17:16 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (dave04a at dunfield.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:17:16 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk under Win2k (was: Thanks again, Dave!) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110132227.03a42e60@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110123848.01be8c10@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200601101923.k0AJNQma030944@mail2.magma.ca> > A DOS-bootable USB key would be really neat for IMD; but if not, if anyone > (like me) has Norton Ghost 2003, it will build a boot-floppy with both USB > & Firewire drivers. > > Boot from floppy, IMD on either firewire drive, USB key or drive, make > images anywhere you want... Doesn't sound like a half-bad idear, eh? [1] If you can give me a driver that will provide "generic" access to USB storage devices under DOS, I would be very grateful, and would happily put togther a boot setup that would make use of it - so far I have not found a way to access a USB device of any kind under DOS (not that I've spent much time looking, but I have had several "it would be nice" moments) > One question: Can IMD deal with FAT32 partitions? (As in, if DOS gives it a > drive letter, can IMD write an image file to it?) IMD just does INT 21 calls to open/read/write/close the image files. So it should work fine - I've used it under Win9x (fat 32) - it also works OK over a network redirected file system Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jan 10 08:24:56 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (dave04a at dunfield.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:24:56 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk under Win2k (was: Thanks again, Dave!) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110123848.01be8c10@mail.30below.com> References: <20060110121152.ZNNG15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200601101931.k0AJV6Z7008208@mail2.magma.ca> > Rumor has it that Dave Dunfield may have mentioned these words: > > This discussion is purely for academics... ;-) Indeed > >IMD needs: > > - unrestricted access to the floppy disk controller hardware. > Which the HAL doesn't provide. :-/ I haven't looked into the gory details, however I expect that "HAL" just virtualizes an FDC and translates it's operations to the standard Win28 floppy driver - which means it works only as long as you don't configure the FDC in any way that the Win2k driver does not. I also wouldn't trust the virtualization to be "wonderful" in terms of real-time emulation (for example, I've seen the virtual serial port of the XP dosbox take up to 10 seconds to report a character received (needless to say this breaks lots of stuff). > > - Nobody else messing with the FDC hardware > > That might be possible, but... > > > - /interrupts while it is active. > > There's certainly no guarantee for that. Under DOS, I take over the interrupt, and since I alone am controlling the FDC, I only get interrupts I expect - under Win2k, I expect you can't get a "real" interrupt vector (only a virtual one), and diddling with the chip may cause Win2k to see an interrupt and go poking around on it's own ... > > - to not be held-up while some other task decides to hog the CPU for > > a little while (there are real-time critical aspects to the analysis > > phase) > > At least on this, I could *guarantee*... I have a dual-processor box > (2xAthlon MP 2600+), so any processes wanting to hog 1 CPU won't affect the > other. ;-) Are you sure? - you might have a "spare" processor, but what I was really getting at is "an OS that doesn't decide not to dispatch you for a while". I'm not convinced you can guarantee this under any flavor/configuration of winblows. > >Btw - you can reduce the space requirements a lot by using a KVM > >switch . (I put one on my test-bench last year and eliminated two > >monitors/keyboards - very handy). > Yup. Got one on my desk at work - but my space & power requirements at home > for the most part belie the area for a second micro-tower, and KVM switches > don't help with the CoCo[1] or Amiga problems... ;-) > > I should take a picture of my desk I'd respond with a photo of my basement (all the machines depicted on my web site are there) - needless to say, they are not all set up and accessable at the same time (can you say "optimized for storage")! Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jan 10 08:27:37 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (dave04a at dunfield.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:27:37 +0000 Subject: ImageDisk under Win2k In-Reply-To: <200601101829.KAA26678@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <200601101933.k0AJXlAn016634@mail3.magma.ca> > >I have not tried it (don't have FD installed anywhere), however I don't see why > >it would not - as long as FD leaves the FDC alone when it's not accessing it it > >should be OK (I access the FDC by direct manipulation - the only DOS > >functions I use specifically relating to the FDC are get/set the interrupt > vector, > >and the only BIOS function I use is "reset disk system" which I do just before > >I exit). > > Hi Dave > How do you deal with DMA? On my code I needed to setup the > DMA controller as well. Yes, I setup the DMA as well. By "access the FDC by direct manipulation", I mean that I control the FDC proper (765 compatible) as well as the Interrupt collers and DMA chips by talking to them "directly" (gotta love real mode). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jan 10 13:45:16 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:45:16 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk under Win2k (was: Thanks again, Dave!) In-Reply-To: <200601101923.k0AJNQma030944@mail2.magma.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110132227.03a42e60@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060110123848.01be8c10@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110143112.0485e3e0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that dave04a at dunfield.com may have mentioned these words: > > A DOS-bootable USB key would be really neat for IMD; but if not, if anyone > > (like me) has Norton Ghost 2003, it will build a boot-floppy with both USB > > & Firewire drivers. > > > > Boot from floppy, IMD on either firewire drive, USB key or drive, make > > images anywhere you want... Doesn't sound like a half-bad idear, eh? [1] > >If you can give me a driver that will provide "generic" access to USB storage >devices under DOS, I would be very grateful, and would happily put togther a >boot setup that would make use of it - so far I have not found a way to access >a USB device of any kind under DOS (not that I've spent much time looking, >but I have had several "it would be nice" moments) Santa might be a little late on this one, but he just might have something popped into your private inbox here shortly... ;-) > > One question: Can IMD deal with FAT32 partitions? (As in, if DOS gives > it a > > drive letter, can IMD write an image file to it?) > >IMD just does INT 21 calls to open/read/write/close the image files. So it >should >work fine - I've used it under Win9x (fat 32) - it also works OK over a >network >redirected file system Kewl. That's good to hear. ;-) Thanks again, Dave! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 10 13:26:23 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:26:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <43C3BB58.9010404@pacbell.net> from "William Maddox" at Jan 10, 6 05:49:12 am Message-ID: > > Putting a keyboard in the dishwasher doesn't strike me as a particularly I wouldn't do it, certainly not on a classic computer part. > good idea. Unless you disassemble the keyboard anyway, there will be > water trapped inside that will dry out very slowly. I clean a keyboard > by pulling all the keycaps and washing them separately in dish > detergent, and clean the area formerly under the keys with isopropanol, I pull the keycaps and use Maplin foam cleaner and a paper towel. It tries a lot faster than water. I use propan-2-ol on the metal parts, PCB, etc. I've even (once) desoldered all the keyswitches, taken them apart, and cleaned the bits separtely. This one had suffered from spillage, and it needed it. An obvious comment, but do make a diagram of the key positions before dismantling anything. I rememebr, bitterly, the time I took the PCB off an HP9815 keyboard before I did this, not realising that the keycaps were hinged (like all HP calculator keyboards of that vintage), and would fall out when the PCB was lifted. Not having a manual, I had to ask a friend for the order of some of the extions... > cotton swabs, and a detailing brush. This is good for the usual sorts > of gunk that accumulates on a keyboard, but perhaps not for spilled > coffee, etc. > > I have an excellent tool for pulling keycaps that came with a Northgate > Omnikey keyboard. There are two wire loops attached to a handle. You I modified one of those U-shaped IC extractors -- I think it came with some upgrade for an Apple ][, maybe a language card -- by bending the tips inwards. Wooks on most keyboards. HP service manuals suggest making a tool from a paperclip. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 10 13:28:38 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:28:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B75@sbs.jdfogg.com> from "James Fogg" at Jan 10, 6 09:10:14 am Message-ID: > > I miss DDT. I missed DDT this afternoon. Darn Epson PX4 laptop I'm investigating doesn't have the BASIC ROM, it doesn't have DDT in ROM, or ASM, or any useful stuff.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 10 13:31:48 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:31:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <000801c61601$32fc4610$2101a8c0@finans> from "Nico de Jong" at Jan 10, 6 05:16:22 pm Message-ID: > > That is correct. I have more than once had my fingers in PC's which could > not read MS-DOS 320K disks, not to speak of 160K. Assuming the PC in question could read 360K disks, and assuming the 320K/160K disks you were trying to read were undamaged, can you please explain how this can be a _hardware_ problem. I can understand that the BIOS might not support single-sided disks or 8 sectors/track, or whatever, but I can't see how the hardware could have problems with it. As I understand it, Imagedisk talks to the bare metal of the disk controller, so is not hindered by BIOS limitations. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 10 14:05:00 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 20:05:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sorting out the BIT order of the RAM in the PX4 Message-ID: This story might amuse some of you... I have an Epson PX4 laptop in bits on the bench, and for various reasons I needed to work out which RAM stored each data bit (there are 8 64K*1 DRAMs on the board, these are actually somewhat odd DRAMs with internal refresh, but anyway...) The problem is that while the main processor is a Z80 (and thus the data bit order is known at the processor pins), the bus goes into a gate array (GAPNDL), comes out on another 8 pins and goes to the RAM. To make life difficult, my PX4 doesn't have any programming language (I don't have the BASIC ROM for it, yes, I know I could download an image, but I don't have any spare carriers for the EPROMs). It doesn't have DDT, or ASM, or even ED. It does have the standard Utilities, PIP, STAT, FILINK, etc So, this is how I hacked it. Firstly, I fitted the PX4's PCB into the case, without the upper shield plate. Fitted the battery contacts, fitted the lower case and a few of the screws. Put the display PCB (uncased) in roughly the right position, fed the flexiprint through the case and plugged it in. Now, with the keyboard removed, I could get access to the solder side of the main PCB. And since the keyboard is just switches, it should be safe to fit and remove it with the thing powered up. Then I got out my PX8. At least this one has BASIC (althogh nothing else other than the utilities I mentioned above, no DDT, or ASM). And I ran this little BASIC program on it : 10 FOR B=0 TO 7 20 OPEN "O",#1,"A:BIT"+CHR$(48+B)+".COM" 30 PRINT #1,CHR$(243); 40 PRINT #1,CHR$(62);CHR$(2^B); 50 PRINT #1,CHR$(50);CHR$(255);CHR$(1); 60 PRINT #1,CHR$(195);CHR$(0);CHR$(1); 70 CLOSE #1 80 NEXT B 90 END This created 8 .COM files in the RAMdisk of the PX8. Each one was of the form : DI ; Don't want anything else messing around at the same time LD A,#01h ; Set bit 0 LD (01FFh), A ; Do a write to the RAM of that data word JP 0100h ; round again, remember CP/M .COM files load at 100h The other 7 programs write 02, 04, 08, 10, 20, 40, 80 hex respectively to RAM. Hand-assembled that using the Z80 data sheet and an HP16C, wrote the BASIC program above Put the PX4 keyboard in place, linked the 2 machines via the RS232 ports, and used FILINK to transfer the 8 files over to the PX4. Ran the first one, of course the machine locked up (it was supposed to). Removed the keyboard, connected Channel 1 of the LogicDart to pin 3 of one of the DRAM chips (Write enable/), probed with Channel 2 on pin 2 (Data In -- actually linked to Data Out on the same RAM, I checked this first!) of each of the DRAMs in turn until I found the one that had a high data line when the write pin went low. That was the RAM that stored bit 0. Reset the PX4 and was pleased to see that the RAMdisk was unchanged so I didn't have to download the programs from the PX8 again. Ran the next program, found the RAM chip that stored bit 1, and so on. -tony From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Jan 10 14:53:16 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:53:16 -0600 Subject: RL drive problems ...? In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2257@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: I know this sounds stupid, but is the cable grounded? I've had really stupid/strange things happen when my RL02 cable is not grounded properly. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Gooijen, Henk > Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 3:00 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RL drive problems ...? > > Hi, > I would like to hear from the specialists what they have to say > about this problem. > > I finally got my 11/34C running again. It has an RL11 and has > two RL02 and one RL01 connected. Most of the time I cannot boot > RT11 from the RL02-DC, but sometimes the boot is successfull! > If the boot fails, I see the READY lamp of the drive flash once, > then the RUN light goes off, and the display shows 000004. BTW, > at the end of the RL drive chain is of course the terminator. > > The cartridge was written while the system was still in my house > (some 3 years gao, at some 20" Celcius), but the system is now > in a 12" Celcius environment. Could the temperature difference > make the disk too difficult to read in the nwe conditions? > > When RT11 runs, and I only do a .DIR command of the disk, is > there something written to the disk? That could make the disk > "useless", because of the 20"/12" Celsius issues? > > Another problem that I have since I have power for my systems > is that the READY lamp of the RL01 is *always* ON. > The FAULT lamp is OK - and is OFF. I have not yet investigated > this problem, but hints in advance are appreciated :-) > [would save me some time, to work on the other projects, like > the floppy disk interface for the 6809 Core Board...] > > BTW, the system worked fine, 3 years ago ... it has power since > a few weeks, and I had a lot of problem getting the 11/34C up > and running, but that would be a different story too ... > > greetz, > - Henk, PA8PDP > > > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the > addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or > otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. > If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for > delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified > that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is > strictly prohibited. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender > immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. > Thank you for your cooperation. From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Tue Jan 10 15:05:17 2006 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:05:17 -0600 Subject: Measuring regulator values on H745 Message-ID: Okay, I was trying to find out if my H745 is shady, so I busted out the DVM and put the probes on the blue wire and a ground wire. (blue is supposed to be -15v) Nothing. Okay, so just to check my logic, I hooked the probe to what is supposed to be a +5v line and a ground on the same connector, and the light on the 7441 regulator goes out. Nothing on the DVM. The DVM is set to "20" in the "DC volts" area (it's one of those yellow dial type DVMs) Deposits work, but exams cause a bus error. My power supply isn't shot in all areas, so how am I measuring this wrong? I'm measuring at the power control board, where the backplane connectors are plugged in, and I'm using the BA11-K manual and prints as a reference for the wire values. What am I doing wrong? From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jan 10 15:08:08 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:08:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need help on multibus HD controller Message-ID: <200601102108.NAA31676@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi Chuck Sorry for the late response. This was from the begining of October. Can you look into your manual and see if it has the 8X300 controller chip with the WD11xx support chips? If so, I'd be interested in a copy of it. Thanks Dwight >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >I've got the OEM manual for the WD 1001 controller, if that'd help. > >Chuck > > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 10 15:18:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:18:37 -0800 Subject: ImageDisk under Win2k (was: Thanks again, Dave!) In-Reply-To: <200601101923.k0AJNQma030944@mail2.magma.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110123848.01be8c10@mail.30below.com> <200601101923.k0AJNQma030944@mail2.magma.ca> Message-ID: <200601101318370564.35FDDF14@10.0.0.252> On 1/10/2006 at 2:17 PM dave04a at dunfield.com wrote: >If you can give me a driver that will provide "generic" access to USB >storage >devices under DOS, I would be very grateful, and would happily put togther >a >boot setup that would make use of it - so far I have not found a way to >access >a USB device of any kind under DOS (not that I've spent much time looking, >but I have had several "it would be nice" moments) Easy enough; see: http://www.computing.net/dos/wwwboard/forum/13288.html for a nice discussion. I occasionally use this driver for non-storage USB devices with the /v option just to get a detailed listing of what's on the bus without booting a "big" operating system. Cheers, Chuck From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jan 10 15:38:48 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:38:48 -0800 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <200601101539.k0AFdWAD002093@mail1.magma.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110012030.03949770@mail.30below.com> <200601101539.k0AFdWAD002093@mail1.magma.ca> Message-ID: <200601101338.49054.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 10 January 2006 02:33, dave04a at dunfield.com wrote: > > I second the thanks! > > > > To a "hints" list I would add that I had some trouble finding a "good" > > floppy controller to use with it. After going through 3 Pentium and 2 > > 486 motherboards with no luck, and the floppy controllers on two > > different floppy/IDE cards, I finally tried the floppy controller on an > > Adaptec 1522 SCSI cards which works like a charm. > > Most PC FDC's are limited in their ability to access formats not native > to the PC - This is not a limitation of the ImageDisk program, it is a > limitation of the FDC implemented on most PC's. I've heard from a > few people that the Adaptec cards work well. I've had good luck personally > with the FDCs on both of the Intel Mainboards that I have, as well as one > Aopen board (although all the other Aopen boards I've tried don't fare so > well). Suggestion to all the folks discussing "Windows" and "Floppy Controllers". Don't bother. Pick up an older PC with a FDC that works with ImageDisk, Teledisk, PUTR, etc. - and create a DOS partition and Linux partiton on it's HDD. You'll have the best of both worlds. Include an older SCSI controller (Adaptec or Buslogic will do) - this lets one read or write 9-track 800/1600/6250 tapes, TK50Z, 8mm Exabyte, Zip Disk, etc. as well. DOS --- ImageDisk, Teledisk for floppy image capture/restoration, PUTR to handle XXDP/RT/etc. capture/restore ST to create/restore using *.tap files FLX to create/restore RSTS media 22DISK to deal with CP/M-to-DOS Diskette "Interchange" etc. Linux ----- "dd", etc. to copy media Windows doesn't play well with ANY of the software mentioned above... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Jan 10 15:43:56 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:43:56 -0000 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? References: Message-ID: <005901c6162e$f68a4000$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "Tony Duell" > > But if I want an accurate measurement, yes, I'll use > > another meter. Maybe one of my AVOs: > > > > http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/avo.htm > > Ah yes, fine instruments. I have an old Model 8 (I can't remember the > version), a DA114 (early digital meter) and, of course, a Valve > Characteristic Meter Mk 4. > > For the people across the Pond, AVO, of course, comes from the initals of > Amps Volts, Ohms. It was the brand name of one of the first multimeters > in the UK (the 'Universal AVOmeter' was around before WW2 I think, > 'Universal' meaning it had AC and DC ranges). Amongst older engineers and > scientists, 'AVO' is used as a generic name for any multimeter over here. > > AVO was a trade mark of "The Automatic Coil Winder and Electrical Company", who made measuring instruments and coil winders. The instruments included meters, valve testers, signal generators, transistor testers and LCR bridges. I have a few manuals for meters and coil winders on my site: www.g1jbg.co.uk/service.htm if anyone needs them. Jim. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 10 15:52:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:52:11 -0800 Subject: Need help on multibus HD controller In-Reply-To: <200601102108.NAA31676@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200601102108.NAA31676@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <200601101352110400.361C99A0@10.0.0.252> On 1/10/2006 at 1:08 PM Dwight Elvey wrote: > Sorry for the late response. This was from the begining of >October. Can you look into your manual and see if it has >the 8X300 controller chip with the WD11xx support chips? >If so, I'd be interested in a copy of it. Hi Dwight, Well, yes and no. The WD book doesn't have a thing on the 8X300 or 305 because it's not a WD part, but rather a Signetics part! I do have the Signetics "Bipolar LSI Data Manual" which does detail both the 300 and 305; is that what you're looking for? Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jan 10 15:56:54 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:56:54 -0600 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <200601101338.49054.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110012030.03949770@mail.30below.com> <200601101539.k0AFdWAD002093@mail1.magma.ca> <200601101338.49054.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <43C42DA6.3060003@mdrconsult.com> Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Tuesday 10 January 2006 02:33, dave04a at dunfield.com wrote: > >>>I second the thanks! And thirds. > Suggestion to all the folks discussing "Windows" and "Floppy Controllers". > Don't bother. > > Pick up an older PC with a FDC that works with ImageDisk, Teledisk, PUTR, etc. > - and create a DOS partition and Linux partiton on it's HDD. You'll have the > best of both worlds. I've found 3 sub-166MHz Compaq Presarios that do fine with FM 5.25" disks. Not to say that a a 166MHz+ Compaq won't, I just haven't tried. OTOH, I have a Micron P133 that won't, no matter what. > Include an older SCSI controller (Adaptec or Buslogic will do) - this lets one > read or write 9-track 800/1600/6250 tapes, TK50Z, 8mm Exabyte, Zip Disk, etc. > as well. > > DOS > --- > ImageDisk, Teledisk for floppy image capture/restoration, > PUTR to handle XXDP/RT/etc. capture/restore > ST to create/restore using *.tap files > FLX to create/restore RSTS media > 22DISK to deal with CP/M-to-DOS Diskette "Interchange" I'd add WFW3.11 to that, just because. > Linux > ----- > "dd", etc. to copy media And to upload/download large groups of files. While I can do this in DOS, it's faster and simpler in Linux. Plus there's the whole CD-burning thing. > Windows doesn't play well with ANY of the software mentioned above... s/ with ANY of the software mentioned above// Doc From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Jan 10 16:05:42 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 23:05:42 +0100 Subject: RL drive problems ...? Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2295@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I *assume* that the cable has at least one wire that connects ground of the RL11/RLV1[12] controller to ground of the RL drive. Further, I have never seen an RL drive that had a ground wire connected from the metal cahssis of the drive to the ground of the cabinet in which the drives was mounted. I have once seen a cable that had a braided wire at one end (or was it on both ends?), but AFAIK was that the cable for an RLV controller installed in a BA23 or BA123 box. That is a short cable (IIRC 50 cm) to the bulkhead at the rear side of the box. So, what you describe (strange things if not grounded) are effects that I have not seen (up till now) ... Perhaps the experts can elaborate more, as I do not consider myself to be an expert :-) - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Julian Wolfe Verzonden: di 10-01-2006 21:53 Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Onderwerp: RE: RL drive problems ...? I know this sounds stupid, but is the cable grounded? I've had really stupid/strange things happen when my RL02 cable is not grounded properly. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jan 10 16:08:26 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:08:26 -0500 Subject: Sorting out the BIT order of the RAM in the PX4 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110170425.0499fab0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: >but I don't have any spare carriers for the EPROMs). What size/type EPROMs and carriers does it take? Are they 8K 24-pin ROMs (Motorola 68764/66) with a carrier like the Panasonic HHC? If so, I have lots... and lots... If they're 32K 28-pin ROMs and the carrier is similar to the Model 100/102/200 series machines, then there's the ROMBO/MOMBO solution at club100.org -- see my good friend Rick Hanson, he may still have some (I have three, I just haven't finished the adapter to be able to burn 'em). Just random thoughts, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 10 15:56:31 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:56:31 GMT Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: William Maddox "Re: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher" (Jan 10, 5:49) References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200601091126390470.3070FEFD@10.0.0.252> <43C3BB58.9010404@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <10601102156.ZM13560@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 10 2006, 5:49, William Maddox wrote: > Putting a keyboard in the dishwasher doesn't strike me as a particularly > good idea. Unless you disassemble the keyboard anyway, there will be > water trapped inside that will dry out very slowly. I would agree. Although I've been known to use the dishwasher for PCBs, it's only faster than handwashing if you have several to do, and you do need to make sure you can drain the water and dry the boards off. Besides, you rarely need to wash a keyboard unless someone has poured coffee or cola into it. Usually it's only the keytops that need washed, and the rest wants a brush out. An easy way to wash lots of keytops is to put them in a pillowcase, make sure the end is well tied, and put them in a cool wash in the clothes washer. You can tumble dry them that way too. If it's just one keyboard, it's usually quicker to just handwash them in a small bowl and dry them with a towel and perhaps some compressed air, though. > I have an excellent tool for pulling keycaps that came with a Northgate > Omnikey keyboard. There are two wire loops attached to a handle. I have one of those. Far and away the best tool for the job. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Jan 10 16:16:00 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 23:16:00 +0100 Subject: Measuring regulator values on H745 Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2296@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I worked on a BA11K PSU just a month ago. One 5V brick was defective ... You are correct, the blue wire (there is just one blue wire to the distribution panel) is indeed -15V. What is happening to the H7441 when you try to make a measurement puzzles me, though. Most of the power bricks only need 20-30 VAC input, so with a small 1A. transformer that puts out some 24V, you can check the brick on the bench outside the BA11K, which is a lot easier to work on. The "bad" news is that there is on exception, the H745 ... that one needs, besides the 20-30 VAC, also +15VDC for proper operation. But as discussed in another thread, a good bench has a laborytory power supply ... - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Wolfe, Julian Verzonden: di 10-01-2006 22:05 Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Onderwerp: Measuring regulator values on H745 Okay, I was trying to find out if my H745 is shady, so I busted out the DVM and put the probes on the blue wire and a ground wire. (blue is supposed to be -15v) Nothing. Okay, so just to check my logic, I hooked the probe to what is supposed to be a +5v line and a ground on the same connector, and the light on the 7441 regulator goes out. Nothing on the DVM. The DVM is set to "20" in the "DC volts" area (it's one of those yellow dial type DVMs) Deposits work, but exams cause a bus error. My power supply isn't shot in all areas, so how am I measuring this wrong? I'm measuring at the power control board, where the backplane connectors are plugged in, and I'm using the BA11-K manual and prints as a reference for the wire values. What am I doing wrong? This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Jan 10 16:27:16 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:27:16 -0000 Subject: Measuring regulator values on H745 References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2296@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <00f301c61635$0340e460$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> My one thought is: are you making proper contact with the connections? I've had a similar problem trying to measure voltages at the distribuition panel on my 11/45, due to the difficulty in getting a probe down the side of the wire and onto the connector pin. In the end I made some extension probes from stiff wire, which I could get into the back of the connector. It is also worth checking the ground point that you're using - that may explain why you can't get a reading from any of the power rails. Jim. From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jan 10 16:41:36 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:41:36 -0500 Subject: ImageDisk under Win2k (was: Thanks again, Dave!) In-Reply-To: <200601101931.k0AJV6Z7008208@mail2.magma.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110123848.01be8c10@mail.30below.com> <20060110121152.ZNNG15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110144645.03acf2d8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that dave04a at dunfield.com may have mentioned these words: >I haven't looked into the gory details, however I expect that "HAL" >just virtualizes an FDC and translates it's operations to the standard >Win28 floppy driver - which means it works only as long as you don't >configure the FDC in any way that the Win2k driver does not. Which is prolly why rawritewin.exe (the PC floppy image tool that runs under NT/2K/XP) works - it prolly just says "Hey, there's the floppy, gimme everything on it - unless it b0rks then I have to die, too." So much for getting *everything* except what's unreadable... >I also wouldn't trust the virtualization to be "wonderful" in terms of >real-time emulation (for example, I've seen the virtual serial port of >the XP dosbox take up to 10 seconds to report a character received >(needless to say this breaks lots of stuff). Well, I trust M$'s dosbox even less than I trust VirtualPC, IMHO. Granted, that ain't saying much... but I have *compiled* Linux in M$'s VirtualPC, but their dosbox is nearly useless. > > > - to not be held-up while some other task decides to hog the CPU for > > > a little while (there are real-time critical aspects to the analysis > > > phase) > > > > At least on this, I could *guarantee*... I have a dual-processor box > > (2xAthlon MP 2600+), so any processes wanting to hog 1 CPU won't affect > the > > other. ;-) > >Are you sure? - you might have a "spare" processor, but what I was really >getting at is "an OS that doesn't decide not to dispatch you for a while". I'm >not convinced you can guarantee this under any flavor/configuration of >winblows. OK, maybe "guarantee" was too strong a word, but for any application that's not winders multi-threaded & grabs 100% CPU (Nutscrape 4.04 and 4.05 were *famous* for this), Win2k is smart enough to say "Oh lookie, that CPU is hosed. I'll just run everything else on the other CPU until the PEBKAC kills that process. ;-) That's one of the reasons I only run dual-processor machines at home... >I'd respond with a photo of my basement (all the machines depicted on my >web site >are there) - needless to say, they are not all set up and accessable at >the same >time (can you say "optimized for storage")! Then I'd have to show you 2 bedrooms (floor-to-ceiling full) and the *entire* 3rd floor attic... tho (amazingly) there's more of the wifey's stuff than mine... and I'm a considerable packrat... tho that's changing. I'll be putting stuff for giveaway on the list here, shortly, just because I can't deal with the fact that 40% of my house is unusable, and I'll never have time to monkey with 90% of the computers I have. [[ Notice I didn't mention my basement... which is worse... ;-) ]] That, and what *really* sounds fun to me is building a Cubix system... so much so that most if not all of my vaxen are (at least) getting mothballed, most of my Atari stuff is going away, most of my commodore is already gone (and the stragglers will be departing shortly); and 2/3 of the books that don't center on Model 'T's, CoCos, or hardware relating to those machines are also on the chopping block, as is anything not explicitly mentioned above. Anywho, back to work... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 10 16:52:02 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:52:02 -0700 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:56:31 +0000. <10601102156.ZM13560@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: So is there no consensus on this? The first few responses were "yeah, I do it all the time!" and now the thread responses are "I would never do that!" with rejoinders of "Damn straight, buddy!" (I'm paraphrasing.) Considering that this advice comes from the "classic computing knowledge base" it doesn't seem too authoritative if people on this list simultaneously subscribe to both points of view. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jan 10 17:15:49 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:15:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need help on multibus HD controller Message-ID: <200601102315.PAA03488@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 1/10/2006 at 1:08 PM Dwight Elvey wrote: > >> Sorry for the late response. This was from the begining of >>October. Can you look into your manual and see if it has >>the 8X300 controller chip with the WD11xx support chips? >>If so, I'd be interested in a copy of it. > >Hi Dwight, > >Well, yes and no. The WD book doesn't have a thing on the 8X300 or 305 >because it's not a WD part, but rather a Signetics part! I do have the >Signetics "Bipolar LSI Data Manual" which does detail both the 300 and 305; >is that what you're looking for? > >Cheers, >Chuck > > Hi Chuck I was thinking you had information on one of the controller boards based on the 8X300 with the WD11xx parts. I've already gotten enough information on both the WD11xx and the 8X300 to create a simple disassembler. I also needed some hardware specific inputs because the board I'm looking at does specific hardware fuctions based on the address that the 8X300 is executing ( similar to many bit slice designs ). This required a custom disassembler. I'm told that the TRS-80 Model4 used these parts for their hard disk controller. From looking at the code I have extracted from the Olivetti board, I'd say they didn't modify the code from WD's original application notes. I'd suspect the same for the TRS-80 controller as well. I noticed that there is a reset action that doesn't effect the M20's controller since it is used for DMA circuits that are not even connected in this controller. I suspect this was in the original app note. I'll have to do a little net digging on the TRS-80. I suspect I'll come up with the controller commands from the computer side. These are what I'm actually looking for. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 10 17:34:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 23:34:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Measuring regulator values on H745 In-Reply-To: from "Wolfe, Julian" at Jan 10, 6 03:05:17 pm Message-ID: > > Okay, I was trying to find out if my H745 is shady, so I busted out the DVM > and put the probes on the blue wire and a ground wire. (blue is supposed to > be -15v) Nothing. Okay, so just to check my logic, I hooked the probe to > what is supposed to be a +5v line and a ground on the same connector, and > the light on the 7441 regulator goes out. Nothing on the DVM. > > The DVM is set to "20" in the "DC volts" area (it's one of those yellow dial > type DVMs) Juat to check the obvious, you do have the leads in the right sockets on the DMM. You've not got them in the current (amps) sockets? Most DMMs have one common socket (black lead goes in here), one active socket for voltage and resistance (you want to put the red lead here for the measurements you're doing) and one or more sockets for current (red lead goes into those for current measurements). There is normally a low-value (<1 ohm) shunt resistor between each of the current sockets and the common socket. And this is not switched by the range switch (so as to avoid having to be able to switch high currents on said swtich). So if you've got the red lead in a 'current' socket and then try to do a voltage measurement, you effectively short-circuit the supply you're measuring. This may blow a fuse in the DMM, trip the overcurrent circuit of the PSU, or whatever. Once I blew an expensive power transistor by doing this (I'd been measuring current, wanted to check a voltage, and forgot to move the leads...) Some FLuke meters beep if there's a plug in the 'current' socket and the range switch is set to a voltage (or resistance?) setting. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 10 17:40:11 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:40:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060110152811.C79699@shell.lmi.net> I have a workroom that has a large sink with hot and cold water flow, a parts washer made by Maytag, a big box made by Kenmore for chilling and storing cold stuff, including a section that stays below 0 degrees c, a box for heating stuff (thermostatic control up to about 500 degrees F) made by Tappan, (heating and chilling stuff can make assembly a lot easier) a flat surface heater made by Jenn-Air (including an open grill section for heater circuit boards, an exhaust fan, a timer controlled box full of microwaves, a bunch of cabinets and drawers for tools and supplies, such as mixers, graters, cutting tools, tongs, etc. Only problem is that when my girlfiend was living with me, she kept calling my workroom "the kitchen", and trying to use my tools for other purposes. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 10 17:40:04 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 23:40:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sorting out the BIT order of the RAM in the PX4 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110170425.0499fab0@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jan 10, 6 05:08:26 pm Message-ID: > > Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: > > >but I don't have any spare carriers for the EPROMs). > > What size/type EPROMs and carriers does it take? Are they 8K 24-pin ROMs > (Motorola 68764/66) with a carrier like the Panasonic HHC? If so, I have > lots... and lots... They are 28 pin DIL EPROMs (I will have to check which ones are supported, some or all of 27C64, 27C128, 27C256). They're the same design of carrier as for the HHC, but a little longer. > If they're 32K 28-pin ROMs and the carrier is similar to the > Model 100/102/200 series machines, then there's the ROMBO/MOMBO solution It is the same carrier as is used for the expansion ROM on the M100 (and I assume the other machines in that series). I am sure these were a standard part at one time (if only because so many machines seemed to use them. But I've never seen them in catalogues. > at club100.org -- see my good friend Rick Hanson, he may still have some (I > have three, I just haven't finished the adapter to be able to burn 'em). OK, I'll take a look... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 10 17:54:50 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 23:54:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Need help on multibus HD controller In-Reply-To: <200601102315.PAA03488@ca2h0430.amd.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Jan 10, 6 03:15:49 pm Message-ID: > > >From: "Chuck Guzis" > > > >On 1/10/2006 at 1:08 PM Dwight Elvey wrote: > > > >> Sorry for the late response. This was from the begining of > >>October. Can you look into your manual and see if it has > >>the 8X300 controller chip with the WD11xx support chips? > >>If so, I'd be interested in a copy of it. > > > >Hi Dwight, > > > >Well, yes and no. The WD book doesn't have a thing on the 8X300 or 305 > >because it's not a WD part, but rather a Signetics part! I do have the > >Signetics "Bipolar LSI Data Manual" which does detail both the 300 and 305; > >is that what you're looking for? > > > >Cheers, > >Chuck > > > > > > Hi Chuck > I was thinking you had information on one of the controller boards > based on the 8X300 with the WD11xx parts. I've already gotten > enough information on both the WD11xx and the 8X300 to create > a simple disassembler. I also needed some hardware specific > inputs because the board I'm looking at does specific hardware The WD databook (at least the one I have) does have spec sheets for the controller boards. These include a block diagram (but not a full schematic) and the host interface specification, including the commands you can send > fuctions based on the address that the 8X300 is executing > ( similar to many bit slice designs ). This required a custom That is quite normal. > disassembler. > I'm told that the TRS-80 Model4 used these parts for their > hard disk controller. From looking at the code I have extracted I have a 3rd party (Cumana) hard disk on my Model 4. It uses the same driver software as the Radio Shack one, and contains a real WD controller (I forget which one, WD1100, possibly). There is one very small modification to said board, namely adding a kludgewire so as to bring the 5V rai to an otherwise unused pin on the host connector, this is used to power the host address decoder chips on a separate board. Needless to say this mod will not affect the commands, etc. -tony From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jan 10 18:09:15 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:09:15 -0500 Subject: Sorting out the BIT order of the RAM in the PX4 In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110170425.0499fab0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110185539.03ae43c8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: > > If they're 32K 28-pin ROMs and the carrier is similar to the > > Model 100/102/200 series machines, then there's the ROMBO/MOMBO solution > >It is the same carrier as is used for the expansion ROM on the M100 (and >I assume the other machines in that series). Whilst digging thru box #1 my metric buttload of 6876[46] HHC eproms, I did come across 1 (yes, only 1) 32K 28-pin EPROM in the carrier. If I come across more, I'll keep you informed (prolly in about 2 more weeks I'll be going thru the other 2 boxen) but for now, that one I wanted to keep for testing with my M10x/200's. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From news at computercollector.com Tue Jan 10 18:11:01 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 19:11:01 -0500 Subject: Paul Allen opens PDP Planet web site In-Reply-To: <000301c615f9$3181fbc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <001001c61643$81d92770$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Well, Paul only had 15-20 minutes, and I jammed in about 10 questions. For non-subscribers, you can read the full article at http://news.computercollector.com ... Click where it says (duh) "click here to read the full article." -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 10:19 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Paul Allen opens PDP Planet web site Speaking of which, I'm interviewing Paul this afternoon for the new issue of Computer Collector Newsletter. Update to be posted later today... - Evan -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert Feldman Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 9:57 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Paul Allen opens PDP Planet web site There is a short article on the site at http://www.theregister.com/2006/01/10/allen_pdp/ The site is at http://www.pdpplanet.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 10 18:12:34 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:12:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac Message-ID: <200601110012.QAA19776@floodgap.com> Well, the Intel Mac has emerged and with that we can conclude that the end of the Classic era is near, as Rosetta will officially not support Classic applications. This means a lot of legacy software is now suddenly worthless on the next generation of Macintoshes. Worse, I'm hearing a rumour that 10.5 will strip Classic out even for PPC Macs. Has anyone else heard this? I still use a number of 68K apps I picked up for a song because they do the job, they're fast, and they were cheap. I'm not giving that up so easily. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A kindness done today is the surest way to a brighter tomorrow. -- Anonymous From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jan 10 18:20:22 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:20:22 -0600 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C44F46.2010206@mdrconsult.com> Richard wrote: > So is there no consensus on this? > > The first few responses were "yeah, I do it all the time!" and now the > thread responses are "I would never do that!" with rejoinders of "Damn > straight, buddy!" (I'm paraphrasing.) > > Considering that this advice comes from the "classic computing > knowledge base" it doesn't seem too authoritative if people on this > list simultaneously subscribe to both points of view. Much like the 10-year rule, the only consensus is that we must have an extended dishwasher thread at least twice a year. Doc From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 10 18:26:03 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:26:03 -0700 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:20:22 -0600. <43C44F46.2010206@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: In article <43C44F46.2010206 at mdrconsult.com>, Doc Shipley writes: > Richard wrote: > > So is there no consensus on this? > > Much like the 10-year rule, the only consensus is that we must have > an extended dishwasher thread at least twice a year. Well if that's the case, whoever maintains that "knowledge base" should condense this whole thread into that article instead of just blindly telling people that they should stick keyboards in dishwashers. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 10 18:27:05 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:27:05 -0700 Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:12:34 -0800. <200601110012.QAA19776@floodgap.com> Message-ID: In article <200601110012.QAA19776 at floodgap.com>, Cameron Kaiser writes: > I still use a number of 68K apps I picked up for a song because they do the > job, they're fast, and they were cheap. I'm not giving that up so easily. Look on the bright side... as support for 68K based apps disappears, all those appliations will start showing up dirt-cheap in the 2nd hand market! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 10 18:30:53 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:30:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: from Richard at "Jan 10, 6 05:27:05 pm" Message-ID: <200601110030.QAA11926@floodgap.com> > > I still use a number of 68K apps I picked up for a song because they do the > > job, they're fast, and they were cheap. I'm not giving that up so easily. > > Look on the bright side... as support for 68K based apps disappears, > all those appliations will start showing up dirt-cheap in the 2nd hand > market! No good if my quad G5 running 10.5 can't run them ;) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Helmet: But when will Now be Then?!?! Sandurz: Soon. -- "Spaceballs" ------- From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 10 18:39:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:39:46 -0800 Subject: Need help on multibus HD controller In-Reply-To: <200601102315.PAA03488@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200601102315.PAA03488@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <200601101639460138.36B605F2@10.0.0.252> On 1/10/2006 at 3:15 PM Dwight Elvey wrote: >Hi Chuck > I was thinking you had information on one of the controller boards >based on the 8X300 with the WD11xx parts. I've already gotten >enough information on both the WD11xx and the 8X300 to create >a simple disassembler. I also needed some hardware specific >inputs because the board I'm looking at does specific hardware >fuctions based on the address that the 8X300 is executing >( similar to many bit slice designs ). This required a custom >disassembler. Ah--sometimes you hafta whack me upside ma haid to the bits movin' again! Yes, indeed, I've got the WD1001 OEM manual--it's got schematics, waveforms, PCB layout and interfacing instructions, including a sample driver. It's pretty thick--best guess is about 75 pages. I could scan it, but it'd a bit big to email. Cheers, Chck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 10 18:41:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:41:03 -0800 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <43C44F46.2010206@mdrconsult.com> References: <43C44F46.2010206@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200601101641030109.36B7329D@10.0.0.252> On 1/10/2006 at 6:20 PM Doc Shipley wrote: > Much like the 10-year rule, the only consensus is that we must have >an extended dishwasher thread at least twice a year. Ah, but a dishwasher will never take the place of a couple of gallons of Freon TF! Cheers, Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 10 18:33:07 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 00:33:07 GMT Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: Fred Cisin "Re: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher" (Jan 10, 15:40) References: <20060110152811.C79699@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <10601110033.ZM14002@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 10 2006, 15:40, Fred Cisin wrote: > I have a workroom that has a large sink with hot and cold water flow, a > parts washer made by Maytag, a big box made by Kenmore for chilling and > storing cold stuff, including a section that stays below 0 degrees c, a > box for heating stuff (thermostatic control up to about 500 degrees F) > made by Tappan, (heating and chilling stuff can make assembly a lot > easier) Good for baking stuff that's been spray-painted, too, and for drying plastic sheet prior to impact or thermoforming. Essential for polycarbonate and some types of Perspex. If it's the type with a fan, it's also good for the actual thermoforming, though you can also use your infrared heater for that. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 10 18:43:02 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:43:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <200601110012.QAA19776@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jan 10, 2006 04:12:34 PM Message-ID: <200601110043.k0B0h2Zr008944@onyx.spiritone.com> > Well, the Intel Mac has emerged and with that we can conclude that the end > of the Classic era is near, as Rosetta will officially not support Classic > applications. This has been known from the beginning of the switch to Intel. > This means a lot of legacy software is now suddenly worthless on the next > generation of Macintoshes. Worse, I'm hearing a rumour that 10.5 will strip > Classic out even for PPC Macs. Has anyone else heard this? No, I've not heard this, but it is disturbing. With 10.4 they removed the support for Classic Appletalk that was added in either 10.1 or 10.2 (I didn't switch till 10.2 in part becuase of this). Also, the simple fact remains that most users don't need or care about classic support. This is one of the reasons I'm still running 10.3.9. > I still use a number of 68K apps I picked up for a song because they do the > job, they're fast, and they were cheap. I'm not giving that up so easily. I still use ClarisDraw that I bought in 1995, it cost me a *LOT* and was never updated. Up until the last year or so it wasn't even possible to get software that could read my data files (now several basically unheard of drawing apps do). I use it because it does 99.9% of what I need, and becuase nothing else I've tried is as easy to use. I've paid for Adobe CS Premium, so I have Illustrator CS, but for what I typically need, it's overkill, and I don't have time to learn it. I tend to suspect that there are enough of us that are stuck with apps that can't be easily replaced, that there is a market for something along the lines of VPC for running classic Mac OS on the new Intel-based Mac's. Personally I really hope someone develops it, as I'll be looking for it when I go to upgrade. Ideally it would be able to tranparently access the host systems filesystem, run classic Appletalk, and run a range of OS versions. I'd really like to be able to run System 7.5, 7.6, and 8.0, as I have software that doesn't work right on newer versions (one app I wrote myself, the rest are commercial apps). Worst case I setup either my PowerMac 8500/180 or G4/450 running classic Mac OS. Which is tempting in any case, as I have software that is locked to the 8500, and hardware that will only work with one of those two systems. My problem with this solution is a lack of room. Zane From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jan 10 18:55:05 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:55:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need help on multibus HD controller Message-ID: <200601110055.QAA06762@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 1/10/2006 at 3:15 PM Dwight Elvey wrote: > >>Hi Chuck >> I was thinking you had information on one of the controller boards >>based on the 8X300 with the WD11xx parts. I've already gotten >>enough information on both the WD11xx and the 8X300 to create >>a simple disassembler. I also needed some hardware specific >>inputs because the board I'm looking at does specific hardware >>fuctions based on the address that the 8X300 is executing >>( similar to many bit slice designs ). This required a custom >>disassembler. > >Ah--sometimes you hafta whack me upside ma haid to the bits movin' again! > >Yes, indeed, I've got the WD1001 OEM manual--it's got schematics, >waveforms, PCB layout and interfacing instructions, including a sample >driver. It's pretty thick--best guess is about 75 pages. I could scan >it, but it'd a bit big to email. > >Cheers, >Chck > > Hi Chuck I just noticed that Al had it on his bitsavers ftp ( all 57 pages ). It should help some in figuring things out. Tony sent me a ROM dump he thinks came from one of these. Take Care Dwight From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 10 18:57:59 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:57:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 10, 2006 05:27:05 PM Message-ID: <200601110058.k0B0w0Ou009286@onyx.spiritone.com> > Cameron Kaiser writes: > > > I still use a number of 68K apps I picked up for a song because they do the > > job, they're fast, and they were cheap. I'm not giving that up so easily. > > Look on the bright side... as support for 68K based apps disappears, > all those appliations will start showing up dirt-cheap in the 2nd hand > market! That makes no sense whatsoever. The 68k based Mac's were last made over 10 years ago. The problem is that Rosetta will only run PPC apps that run native on Mac OS X. That means there are also a fair number of PPC apps that won't run on the Intel hardware either. Zane From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 10 18:58:51 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 16:58:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <200601110043.k0B0h2Zr008944@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jan 10, 6 04:43:02 pm" Message-ID: <200601110058.QAA20744@floodgap.com> > > Well, the Intel Mac has emerged and with that we can conclude that the end > > of the Classic era is near, as Rosetta will officially not support Classic > > applications. > > This has been known from the beginning of the switch to Intel. Yes, but it's a little more acute now that the machines are actually here ... > > This means a lot of legacy software is now suddenly worthless on the next > > generation of Macintoshes. Worse, I'm hearing a rumour that 10.5 will strip > > Classic out even for PPC Macs. Has anyone else heard this? > > No, I've not heard this, but it is disturbing. With 10.4 they removed the > support for Classic Appletalk that was added in either 10.1 or 10.2 (I > didn't switch till 10.2 in part becuase of this). Also, the simple fact > remains that most users don't need or care about classic support. This is > one of the reasons I'm still running 10.3.9. EtherTalk was added back in 10.2, which is still the version of OS X I use day-to-day (my file server runs 10.3 and my laptop runs 10.4, but 10.2 seems to be the best compatibility conjunction for me). I know that a lot of the new Mac generation doesn't care about Classic, and most of them don't even look at it because the installation is a separate step that they don't have to do. But it *is* a slap in the face of the old guard to marginalize it so rapidly. > > I still use a number of 68K apps I picked up for a song because they do the > > job, they're fast, and they were cheap. I'm not giving that up so easily. > > I still use ClarisDraw that I bought in 1995, it cost me a *LOT* and was > never updated. Up until the last year or so it wasn't even possible to get > software that could read my data files (now several basically unheard of > drawing apps do). I use it because it does 99.9% of what I need, and > becuase nothing else I've tried is as easy to use. I've paid for Adobe CS > Premium, so I have Illustrator CS, but for what I typically need, it's > overkill, and I don't have time to learn it. Myself, I still use an old 68K version of OmniPage because it's sickeningly fast on this dual G4, and there's a few games I like to play, and a dev environment or two which I use to write stuff for the old Macs in the shop. Also, some ostensibly Carbon apps seem happier in Classic (Palm's emulator is one of these). > I tend to suspect that there are enough of us that are stuck with apps that > can't be easily replaced, that there is a market for something along the > lines of VPC for running classic Mac OS on the new Intel-based Mac's. > Personally I really hope someone develops it, as I'll be looking for it when > I go to upgrade. Ideally it would be able to tranparently access the host > systems filesystem, run classic Appletalk, and run a range of OS versions. > I'd really like to be able to run System 7.5, 7.6, and 8.0, as I have > software that doesn't work right on newer versions (one app I wrote myself, > the rest are commercial apps). > > Worst case I setup either my PowerMac 8500/180 or G4/450 running classic > Mac OS. Which is tempting in any case, as I have software that is locked to > the 8500, and hardware that will only work with one of those two systems. > My problem with this solution is a lack of room. Well, my original plan was to replace this dual G4 with a quad G5 (running whatever the latest OS is that still supports Classic), and turn the dual G4 into a pure OS 9 box, the last generation of dualies that still could boot OS 9.2.x natively. My worry is that OS 10.5, if it *does* rip Classic out, is going to come along in the meantime and even if I do make an effort to get a PPC Mac to still run my legacy apps, I'll still be unable to do so. Or, if I get the Mac in time and 10.5 (or 10.6, or whatever) comes out without Classic, then I'll never be able to update that Mac past whatever version I have on it. There's stuff like BasiliskII, Sheepshaver (both of which I use occasionally) and PearPC, but even though Classic is clunky, it integrates as well as can be expected with the host operating system and most operations proceed transparently. A "Mac in a window" application would have the limitations of VPC, which works pretty well considering, but is still inconvenient for some kinds of tasks from an interface and integration perspective. What I was hoping Apple would do is keep support for Classic in future versions of the OS that support the PPC, but Classic would either not be pre-installed or just wouldn't work on Intels. When Apple drops the PPC from Mac OS, which will happen one day in the future, then Classic support dies "naturally." This seems a gentler way of leading Classic apps into obsolescence than simply legislating their demise, as it were. Apple's page on Rosetta and the Intel Macs is exceptionally unhelpful about explaining the eventual software roadmap, but this is pretty typical for them. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The world is coming to an end. Log off now. -------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 10 19:02:07 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:02:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <200601110030.QAA11926@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jan 10, 2006 04:30:53 PM Message-ID: <200601110102.k0B127IB009498@onyx.spiritone.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > No good if my quad G5 running 10.5 can't run them ;) You have a Quad G5? I'm jealous!!! They make my lowly Dual 2Ghz Rev.0 G5 look pretty puny. (not to mention I've always wanted a Quad CPU Unix box :^) Zane From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 10 19:03:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:03:32 -0800 Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601101703320078.36CBC806@10.0.0.252> On 1/10/2006 at 5:27 PM Richard wrote: >Look on the bright side... as support for 68K based apps disappears, >all those appliations will start showing up dirt-cheap in the 2nd hand >market! OTOH, I suppose that if you had some PPC apps to run, you could port them to the Xbox 360.... :) From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jan 10 19:22:16 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 01:22:16 +0000 Subject: Measuring regulator values on H745 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C45DC8.2000102@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>Okay, I was trying to find out if my H745 is shady, so I busted out the DVM >>and put the probes on the blue wire and a ground wire. (blue is supposed to >>be -15v) Nothing. Okay, so just to check my logic, I hooked the probe to >>what is supposed to be a +5v line and a ground on the same connector, and >>the light on the 7441 regulator goes out. Nothing on the DVM. >> >>The DVM is set to "20" in the "DC volts" area (it's one of those yellow dial >>type DVMs) > > > Juat to check the obvious, you do have the leads in the right sockets on > the DMM. You've not got them in the current (amps) sockets? Most DMMs > have one common socket (black lead goes in here), one active socket for > voltage and resistance (you want to put the red lead here for the > measurements you're doing) and one or more sockets for current (red lead > goes into those for current measurements). Y'know that was one of my first thoughts, particularly when I read about the LED going out. But then I thought - no, surely, I mean come on... Gordon. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 10 19:27:30 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:27:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <200601110058.QAA20744@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jan 10, 2006 04:58:51 PM Message-ID: <200601110127.k0B1RUlc010020@onyx.spiritone.com> > > remains that most users don't need or care about classic support. This is > > one of the reasons I'm still running 10.3.9. > > EtherTalk was added back in 10.2, which is still the version of OS X I use > day-to-day (my file server runs 10.3 and my laptop runs 10.4, but 10.2 seems > to be the best compatibility conjunction for me). 10.3 added a *must have* feature for me, and that's the fast user switching. The only gain I see with 10.4 is better font support in X-Windows, and that doesn't offset the loss of classic Appletalk support. > Myself, I still use an old 68K version of OmniPage because it's sickeningly > fast on this dual G4, and there's a few games I like to play, and a dev > environment or two which I use to write stuff for the old Macs in the shop. > Also, some ostensibly Carbon apps seem happier in Classic (Palm's emulator > is one of these). I have to be able to play the Mac version of the original "Master of Orion", and I'd really like to be able to run "Warlords 2" as well (I forget which version that quite working with, might be as far back as 8.0). > There's stuff like BasiliskII, Sheepshaver (both of which I use occasionally) > and PearPC, but even though Classic is clunky, it integrates as well as can > be expected with the host operating system and most operations proceed > transparently. A "Mac in a window" application would have the limitations of > VPC, which works pretty well considering, but is still inconvenient for some > kinds of tasks from an interface and integration perspective. I think it's been a *LONG* time since I looked at either of those. I didn't even realize Sheepshaver ran on Linux, and I've never looked at PearPC. Are there Mac OS X native versions of any of these? Sheepshaver looks close to what I'm looking for. > Apple's page on Rosetta and the Intel Macs is exceptionally unhelpful about > explaining the eventual software roadmap, but this is pretty typical for them. Based on what little time I was able to spend earlier looking at the site trying to get info on iLive '06 they seem to be seriously lacking on info on their new products. Zane From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 19:29:13 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 20:29:13 -0500 Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <200601101703320078.36CBC806@10.0.0.252> References: <200601101703320078.36CBC806@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43C45F69.6050806@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/10/2006 at 5:27 PM Richard wrote: > > >>Look on the bright side... as support for 68K based apps disappears, >>all those appliations will start showing up dirt-cheap in the 2nd hand >>market! > > > OTOH, I suppose that if you had some PPC apps to run, you could port them > to the Xbox 360.... :) I'd much prefer running them on my RS/6K. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 10 19:50:12 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:50:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <200601110127.k0B1RUlc010020@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jan 10, 6 05:27:30 pm" Message-ID: <200601110150.RAA12964@floodgap.com> > > EtherTalk was added back in 10.2, which is still the version of OS X I use > > day-to-day (my file server runs 10.3 and my laptop runs 10.4, but 10.2 seems > > to be the best compatibility conjunction for me). > > 10.3 added a *must have* feature for me, and that's the fast user switching. > The only gain I see with 10.4 is better font support in X-Windows, and that > doesn't offset the loss of classic Appletalk support. 10.4 really didn't add much for me either, but I have a few apps that break in 10.3, so I stay on 10.2. > I think it's been a *LONG* time since I looked at either of those. I didn't > even realize Sheepshaver ran on Linux, and I've never looked at PearPC. Are > there Mac OS X native versions of any of these? Sheepshaver looks close to > what I'm looking for. PearPC, dunno. Sheepshaver, yes! There is an OS X version here (clunky but works): http://www.gibix.net/projects/sheepshaver/ It runs under 10.2.8 and up. It's stable, just not very friendly. > Based on what little time I was able to spend earlier looking at the site > trying to get info on iLive '06 they seem to be seriously lacking on info on > their new products. I'll say. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I would like to achieve [immortality] by not dying. -- Woody Allen --------- From charlesmorris at direcway.com Tue Jan 10 20:00:50 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:00:50 -0500 Subject: RL drive problems ...? Message-ID: <6hp8s1l4ola5gh3kuedp4ht8a609sbodla@4ax.com> There are multiple ground wires in the 40 pin ribbon cable (that becomes a round cable between the controller card and the RL02). The RL02 end (at logic board J12) has ground on: VV, UU, LL, KK, FF, EE, BB, AA, U, V, P, R, K, L and A. Having all those fail would be pretty unlikely... It wouldn't hurt, though, to have frame ground (the cabinets) all tied together and make sure they are properly grounded to the power outlet ground pin. -Charles From charlesmorris at direcway.com Tue Jan 10 20:08:04 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:08:04 -0500 Subject: Doesn't *anyone* have those 11/24 switch settings? Message-ID: for the -YA revision-E M7133 CPU? I've searched everywhere on bitsavers & google. I also posted on alt.sys.pdp11 and mailed the webmasters of several pdp-11 sites directly... please help! thanks Charles From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jan 10 20:12:24 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:12:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM DASD and Unit Record equipment on eBay In-Reply-To: <024f01c61619$73491280$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: > The prices are not low, but then again it is working stuff, not scrap. > Looks like he's got a 4381 and all the trimmings. And a cool ugly yellow 3880, too. (Yellow actually was a standard IBM color). That 3704 is pretty cute, as well. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 10 20:17:27 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:17:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060110181552.E97618@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 10 Jan 2006, Richard wrote: > So is there no consensus on this? > The first few responses were "yeah, I do it all the time!" and now the > thread responses are "I would never do that!" with rejoinders of "Damn > straight, buddy!" (I'm paraphrasing.) The bigger problem is whether you should let SWMBO put dishes in your parts washer. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 10 20:56:12 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 18:56:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <000801c61601$32fc4610$2101a8c0@finans> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110012030.03949770@mail.30below.com> <200601101539.k0AFdWAD002093@mail1.magma.ca> <000801c61601$32fc4610$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <20060110185247.T97618@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 10 Jan 2006, Nico de Jong wrote: > That is correct. I have more than once had my fingers in PC's which could > not read MS-DOS 320K disks, not to speak of 160K. That is a SOFTWARE, not hardware, problem, likely due to software that relies on the OS to tell it what it can and can't do. > You could also try to find a MicroSolutions Compaticard IV. I once managed > to create an 8" DSSD disk containing MS-DOS 3.something. The PC could even > boot from it! > I wonder if there would be enough interest in that card to make a small > production run feasible. According to http://www.micro-solutions.com/ they > are no longer in business, so maybe a reverse engineering thing might be > possible ? There's nothing in the Compaticard that would need reverse engineering. Allison could probably design the same thing; CORRECTION: BETTER; in less time than it takes me to type this. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Jan 10 21:01:42 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:01:42 -0500 Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <200601110150.RAA12964@floodgap.com> References: <200601110127.k0B1RUlc010020@onyx.spiritone.com> <200601110150.RAA12964@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20060110220142.6c17f4ea.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:50:12 -0800 (PST) Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > EtherTalk was added back in 10.2, which is still the version of OS X I use > > > day-to-day (my file server runs 10.3 and my laptop runs 10.4, but 10.2 seems > > > to be the best compatibility conjunction for me). > > > > 10.3 added a *must have* feature for me, and that's the fast user switching. > > The only gain I see with 10.4 is better font support in X-Windows, and that > > doesn't offset the loss of classic Appletalk support. > > 10.4 really didn't add much for me either, but I have a few apps that break > in 10.3, so I stay on 10.2. > > > I think it's been a *LONG* time since I looked at either of those. I didn't > > even realize Sheepshaver ran on Linux, and I've never looked at PearPC. Are > > there Mac OS X native versions of any of these? Sheepshaver looks close to > > what I'm looking for. > > PearPC, dunno. This thread motivated me to give a try to PearPC, so I am building it right now from the NetBSD pkgsrc collection. I'll probably try to get MacOS 8 installed on it for the first challange. I already have BOCHS running to emulate an 'x86 system. Maybe when I get PearPC all set up and running, I will build it and bochs as well over on one of my Sparc machines, and let the Windows and Mac virtual machines 'battle' it out on alien territory (should be plenty slow on the grade of Sparc hardware I have.) Years ago I ran Executor (a commercial 68k Mac emulator) on a Linux system simultaneously with Wine (the Windows emulator), and had both the Macintosh and Windows version of 'neko' (the little software cat who follows the mouse pointer around) running running around simulatneously on the same desktop. Hmm. PearPc built from source in the time it's taken to type this message. > Sheepshaver, yes! There is an OS X version here (clunky but works): > > http://www.gibix.net/projects/sheepshaver/ > > It runs under 10.2.8 and up. It's stable, just not very friendly. > > > Based on what little time I was able to spend earlier looking at the site > > trying to get info on iLive '06 they seem to be seriously lacking on info on > > their new products. > > I'll say. > > -- > --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- I would like to achieve [immortality] by not dying. -- Woody Allen --------- From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jan 10 21:32:56 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 22:32:56 -0500 Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac References: <200601110012.QAA19776@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <009e01c6165f$b6df0090$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 7:12 PM Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac > Well, the Intel Mac has emerged and with that we can conclude that the end > of the Classic era is near, as Rosetta will officially not support Classic > applications. > > This means a lot of legacy software is now suddenly worthless on the next > generation of Macintoshes. Worse, I'm hearing a rumour that 10.5 will strip > Classic out even for PPC Macs. Has anyone else heard this? > > I still use a number of 68K apps I picked up for a song because they do the > job, they're fast, and they were cheap. I'm not giving that up so easily. > > -- > --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- A kindness done today is the surest way to a brighter tomorrow. -- Anonymous I have a shelf full of boxed 68k/early PPC software in my collection, funny how cheap this stuff has become lately. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 10 22:02:45 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 20:02:45 -0800 Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <009e01c6165f$b6df0090$0500fea9@game> References: <200601110012.QAA19776@floodgap.com> <009e01c6165f$b6df0090$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: At 10:32 PM -0500 1/10/06, Teo Zenios wrote: >I have a shelf full of boxed 68k/early PPC software in my collection, funny >how cheap this stuff has become lately. Sometimes such stuff can be quite useful. I'm now running Adobe CS Premium on my Mac thanks to a new copy of Photoshop 2.5 I picked up years ago for something like $5-15. First I upgraded to V4, then V5.5, V7, and finally Adobe CS Premium. Of course it also helps to know what various companies upgrade policies are. Lately Filemaker Pro seems to think you need to upgrade *every* version to be able to keep upgrading (Connectix was about about this with VPC). Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 10 22:13:51 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 20:13:51 -0800 Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <20060110220142.6c17f4ea.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200601110127.k0B1RUlc010020@onyx.spiritone.com> <200601110150.RAA12964@floodgap.com> <20060110220142.6c17f4ea.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 10:01 PM -0500 1/10/06, Scott Stevens wrote: >have.) Years ago I ran Executor (a commercial 68k Mac emulator) >on a Linux system simultaneously with Wine (the Windows I remember the demo version of Executor on Linux fondly, it made it possible to take stuff I downloaded on my P90 laptop and put it on Mac floppies so that I could read them on my PowerBook 520c. Yes, there was a reason I had a Pentium 90 laptop and a PowerBook 520c, I was living onboard an Aircraft carrier, and didn't even have room for them. I bought the P90 laptop just before I became disillusioned with OS/2, and decided to switch to the Mac. The sad thing is the no-name P90 laptop is still running, the display went out on the 520c after just over a year. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jan 10 23:20:02 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 00:20:02 -0500 Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac References: <200601110012.QAA19776@floodgap.com> <009e01c6165f$b6df0090$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <00ab01c6166e$ad131380$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: Re: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac > At 10:32 PM -0500 1/10/06, Teo Zenios wrote: > >I have a shelf full of boxed 68k/early PPC software in my collection, funny > >how cheap this stuff has become lately. > > Sometimes such stuff can be quite useful. I'm now running Adobe CS > Premium on my Mac thanks to a new copy of Photoshop 2.5 I picked up > years ago for something like $5-15. First I upgraded to V4, then > V5.5, V7, and finally Adobe CS Premium. Of course it also helps to > know what various companies upgrade policies are. Lately Filemaker > Pro seems to think you need to upgrade *every* version to be able to > keep upgrading (Connectix was about about this with VPC). > > Zane > > > -- Well you can still use the older apps on older equipment. My only flatbed scanner is an old Umax 1200S and it is connected to my Quadra 950 Mac (68040 at 50Mhz with 128K Cache upgraded, 160MB RAM, 4.55GB OS 8.1 Drive, 4 x 9GB UWSCSI drives for storage, etc) and I use it for scanning along with Photoshop 3.0, works just fine. Unless you use a program as a tool for work and the new features save you time (and money) I don't see the need to continually upgrade the same software packages (unless you have a platform change or there is a major shift in that area). From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 11 01:08:15 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 01:08:15 -0600 Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <200601110012.QAA19776@floodgap.com> References: <200601110012.QAA19776@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <43C4AEDF.40409@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > This means a lot of legacy software is now suddenly worthless on the next > generation of Macintoshes. Hardly. It means that emulators will now take over that function. In fact, I've been waiting for a catalist like this for years -- mac emulators have some catching up to do. I know emulators aren't as good as the real thing, but hell, neither was trying to get a classic app working on OS X. If I want to run a classic app properly, the way it works best and was intended, I run it on classic hardware. I don't think many here will disagree with me. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From Bob.Adamson at sli-institute.ac.uk Wed Jan 11 02:03:01 2006 From: Bob.Adamson at sli-institute.ac.uk (Bob Adamson) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 08:03:01 -0000 Subject: Non-random numbers (SIMH PDP-8)? Message-ID: <7D7A68F7F09DAE40AE47E55F7F601D8B834117@SLISERVER21.sli-institute.ac.uk> > I was playing blackjack (BASIC program) on SIMH with my OS/8 RL02 image. I > noticed that every time I played the game the cards drawn were identical, > both by the dealer and myself! A loop to print RND(0) ten times always > shows the same ten numbers... doesn't sound very random to me :) > > Is this an artifact of SIMH, or BASIC? (Will it go away when I run the > program on the real 8/A)? > In fact many high level languages (and even implementations of hardware design languages such as Verilog) frequently support the concept of a repeatable series of pseudo-random numbers to aid in debugging with a switch to randomise the seed. Bob From james at slor.net Tue Jan 10 01:05:59 2006 From: james at slor.net (James) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 02:05:59 -0500 Subject: Kaypro 10 Western Digital Hard Disk Controller WD 1002-HD0 Message-ID: <009701c615b4$50f6b580$1f02a8c0@james> Richard - I found your name in an old post referencing the 1002-HDO controller, and I was wondering if you have any information on how to do a low level format with it. I have been looking for a while to get my Kaypro 16 up and running, but I have not had any luck. Is it hiding from me in the controller rom? Do I need an external program? If you have any info, I'd most appreciate any pointers. If you still have the scans of the datasheet/manual, I'd love to get ahold of them as well. Thanks! -- James From Richard.Gammage at psu.uk.com Mon Jan 9 07:05:13 2006 From: Richard.Gammage at psu.uk.com (Richard Gammage) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 13:05:13 -0000 Subject: Honeywell DPS-6 and other stuff Message-ID: Hello Do you have any technical information on theses devices? Regards Richard From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Tue Jan 10 15:02:42 2006 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:02:42 -0600 Subject: Measuring regulator values on H745 Message-ID: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F10F7DE90@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Okay, I was trying to find out if my H745 is shady, so I busted out the DVM and put the probes on the blue wire and a ground wire. (blue is supposed to be -15v) Nothing. Okay, so just to check my logic, I hooked the probe to what is supposed to be a +5v line and a ground on the same connector, and the light on the 7441 regulator goes out. Nothing on the DVM. The DVM is set to "20" in the "DC volts" area (it's one of those yellow dial type DVMs) Deposits work, but exams cause a bus error. My power supply isn't shot in all areas, so how am I measuring this wrong? I'm measuring at the power control board, where the backplane connectors are plugged in, and I'm using the BA11-K manual and prints as a reference for the wire values. What am I doing wrong? From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 11 08:03:21 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 06:03:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <43C4AEDF.40409@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Jan 11, 6 01:08:15 am" Message-ID: <200601111403.GAA23646@floodgap.com> > > This means a lot of legacy software is now suddenly worthless on the next > > generation of Macintoshes. > > Hardly. It means that emulators will now take over that function. No offense, but this is the kind of response I was expecting from those who don't use such software regularly. > I know emulators aren't as good as the real thing, but hell, neither was > trying to get a classic app working on OS X. If I want to run a classic > app properly, the way it works best and was intended, I run it on > classic hardware. I don't think many here will disagree with me. ... is true in idealistic theory, but Classic is better than emulation because of its integration with the OS. If I want to run a "Mac in a box" then I shouldn't even bother with an emulator, and it would probably be less compatible anyway. On the other hand, I use some of these apps for real work and the fact that Classic transparently maps on the hardware, the file system and makes the app windows part of the OS is important and handy. A "Mac in a window" just doesn't cut it in the same way -- there are already emulators for 68K and PPC Macs on OS X, but I use Classic regularly. It's already an integral part of the OS, so I don't see why Apple would want to take this away from PPC users where it already works. I can see why they don't want to expend the extra work for Intel, but I think they should support Classic on PPC until they don't support PPC anymore. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you. ----------- From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 11 09:07:05 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Edward) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:07:05 +0100 (CET) Subject: RK06 alignment & data pack available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25375.62.177.191.201.1136992025.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Anybody interested in an RK06 alignment pack? $50 + shipping of your choice. Also available, 1 RK06 datapack, $20 + shipping of your choice. Ed From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 11 09:20:08 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Edward) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:20:08 +0100 (CET) Subject: TU-10 internal controller boards available In-Reply-To: <25375.62.177.191.201.1136992025.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <25375.62.177.191.201.1136992025.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <11030.62.177.191.201.1136992808.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> More stuff found during cleanup, about 15 boards for the TU-10 internal controller $20 + your choice of shipping. Ed From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 11 09:44:50 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Edward) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:44:50 +0100 (CET) Subject: TU-10 internal controller boards available In-Reply-To: <11030.62.177.191.201.1136992808.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <25375.62.177.191.201.1136992025.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <11030.62.177.191.201.1136992808.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <17018.62.177.191.201.1136994290.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> They have been spoken for. Ed > > More stuff found during cleanup, > about 15 boards for the TU-10 internal controller > $20 + your choice of shipping. > > Ed > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jan 11 10:00:30 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 11:00:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <200601111403.GAA23646@floodgap.com> References: <200601111403.GAA23646@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200601111606.LAA21290@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...], but Classic is better than emulation because of its > integration with the OS. Um, Classic *is* emulation. Perhaps you're thinking that you can't emulate except by emulating the entire machine? I did a VAX emulator once that, to speak loosely, trapped to the emulator when doing a syscall, rather than emulating the privileged side of the hardware as well as the nonprivileged. > [...] the fact that Classic transparently maps on the hardware, the > file system and makes the app windows part of the OS is important and > handy. Right. It's an emulator that emulates certain aspects of classic MacOS in more useful ways than the "Mac in a window" emulation of the whole computer as an opaque (from outside the emulator) blob. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From charlesmorris at direcway.com Wed Jan 11 10:22:07 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (charlesmorris at direcway.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 11:22:07 -0500 Subject: Got 'em! Re: Doesn't *anyone* have those 11/24 switch settings? Message-ID: <2b499f02b4721f.2b4721f2b499f0@direcway.com> I don't know if he saw my message here or on alt.sys.pdp11, but I have just been sent (from the latest edition 11/24 tech manual) the relevant parts of Appendix D, "PDP-11/24 CPU Modifications". These three pages explain the "Value Engineering" (replacement of logic with gate array chips) redesign of the M7133 -YA version. Most importantly they contain the new switch/jumper settings and location. Thanks Ed! -Charles From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Jan 11 12:05:51 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:05:51 -0800 Subject: Non-random numbers (SIMH PDP-8)? In-Reply-To: <29d0ba629cf28d.29cf28d29d0ba6@direcway.com> References: <29d0ba629cf28d.29cf28d29d0ba6@direcway.com> Message-ID: Some BASICs used RND(0) to get the previous random number and RND(1) to generate a new number. Some used the reverse... Others used RND(N) to generate a number between 0 and N. I think most DEC basics used RND(1) to generate a new number (except for VAX basic, which, IIRC just used a pseudovariable called RND to generate random numbers). Eric On 1/10/06, charlesmorris at direcway.com wrote: > I was playing blackjack (BASIC program) on SIMH with my OS/8 RL02 image. I noticed that every time I played the game the cards drawn were identical, both by the dealer and myself! A loop to print RND(0) ten times always shows the same ten numbers... doesn't sound very random to me :) > > Is this an artifact of SIMH, or BASIC? (Will it go away when I run the program on the real 8/A)? > > thanks > Charles > > > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Jan 11 12:09:27 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:09:27 -0800 Subject: Non-random numbers (SIMH PDP-8)? In-Reply-To: References: <29d0ba629cf28d.29cf28d29d0ba6@direcway.com> Message-ID: Yep, just checked. RND(1) seems more typical. There are a few basic dialects listed on my Ahl's simple benchmark page... http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/~korpela/ahl/ Eric On 1/11/06, Eric J Korpela wrote: > Some BASICs used RND(0) to get the previous random number and RND(1) > to generate a new number. Some used the reverse... Others used > RND(N) to generate a number between 0 and N. > > I think most DEC basics used RND(1) to generate a new number (except > for VAX basic, which, IIRC just used a pseudovariable called RND to > generate random numbers). > > Eric > > On 1/10/06, charlesmorris at direcway.com wrote: > > I was playing blackjack (BASIC program) on SIMH with my OS/8 RL02 image. I noticed that every time I played the game the cards drawn were identical, both by the dealer and myself! A loop to print RND(0) ten times always shows the same ten numbers... doesn't sound very random to me :) > > > > Is this an artifact of SIMH, or BASIC? (Will it go away when I run the program on the real 8/A)? > > > > thanks > > Charles > > > > > > > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 11 12:46:22 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 11:46:22 -0700 Subject: TU-10 internal controller boards available In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:20:08 +0100. <11030.62.177.191.201.1136992808.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: In article <11030.62.177.191.201.1136992808.squirrel at webmail.xs4all.nl>, "Edward" writes: > > More stuff found during cleanup, > about 15 boards for the TU-10 internal controller > $20 + your choice of shipping. What's the "TU-10 internal controller"? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 11 12:45:45 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 11:45:45 -0700 Subject: IBM DASD and Unit Record equipment on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:12:24 -0500. Message-ID: Dang, I don't have the money for this stuff or know anything about it, but I sure hope it gets rescued, it looks like a fine museum quality set! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 11 12:37:23 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 11:37:23 -0700 Subject: dovebid.com experiences? Message-ID: Hi, does anyone have any experience with this online auction house? It looks like they mostly liquidate new equipment, but since the lots aren't listed until shortly before the auction opens, its hard to tell. Currently there's gobs of Sun E250 servers sitting at no bids with a minimum bid of $50 in Hayward, CA. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Jan 11 13:40:58 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 20:40:58 +0100 Subject: Doesn't *anyone* have those 11/24 switch settings? In-Reply-To: <200601111800.k0BI0C3I073330@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601111800.k0BI0C3I073330@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43C55F4A.4030400@update.uu.se> Charles wrote: > for the -YA revision-E M7133 CPU? > > I've searched everywhere on bitsavers & google. I also posted on > alt.sys.pdp11 and mailed the webmasters of several pdp-11 sites > directly... please help! Well, you didn't ask me... I have the system installation manual for the 11/24, but not where I'm sitting right now. I'm in digest mode, so I saw another header saying you already got it now, so I'm not hurrying on this, unless you send me another letter about it though. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 11 14:25:32 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:25:32 -0500 Subject: IBM DASD and Unit Record equipment on eBay In-Reply-To: <024f01c61619$73491280$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> References: <024f01c61619$73491280$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <43C569BC.7090305@gmail.com> Vince Slyngstad wrote: > The prices are not low, but then again it is working stuff, not scrap. > Looks like he's got a 4381 and all the trimmings. I'd love to have a 4381, but I don't have the space and power right now. Plus my floor is in danger of collapse. 8-/ Peace... Sridhar From jgessling at yahoo.com Wed Jan 11 14:32:02 2006 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:32:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: dovebid.com experiences? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060111203202.55625.qmail@web31905.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Hi, does anyone have any experience with this online > auction house? > These guys are legit. During the dot bust I attended a couple of their auctions of equipment from failed web companies. ( in San Francisco ) I was actually looking for an office chair, didn't end up buying it cause they didn't go as cheap as I hoped. Regards, Jim __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 11 14:37:14 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Edward) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 21:37:14 +0100 (CET) Subject: TU-10 internal controller boards available In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:20:08 +0100. <11030.62.177.191.201.1136992808.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <6442.62.177.191.201.1137011834.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> That's a backplane holding some dual and single slot cards controlling the tapedrive. It's counterpart is the set of cards in the computer itself. Ed > > In article <11030.62.177.191.201.1136992808.squirrel at webmail.xs4all.nl>, > "Edward" writes: > >> >> More stuff found during cleanup, >> about 15 boards for the TU-10 internal controller >> $20 + your choice of shipping. > > What's the "TU-10 internal controller"? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Jan 11 14:56:17 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:56:17 -0500 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <200601100956460831.3545114B@10.0.0.252> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110012030.03949770@mail.30below.com> <000801c61601$32fc4610$2101a8c0@finans> <200601100956460831.3545114B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601111556.17917.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 10 January 2006 12:56 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Observations about the floppy interface in NT/2K/XP are accurate. The > native floppy driver is hard-wired to expect Microsoft-format floppies, > even to having the boot sector information being critical. (Try clobbering > a boot sector and then reading an otherwise valid diskette--you'll get a > general failure). Sydex has quietly made a tidy side business of licensing > a kernel mode floppy driver for NT and 2K/XP (in addittion to Win9x VxDs) > to firms needing CP/M (using a DLL interface) or other direct access > (driver access) to "alien" diskette types. We're currently working on a > Vista driver. Operations like "sync to the index hole and read a bunch of > IDs nonstop" are atomic functions with the driver. > > While this will keep most of our customers happy for the short term, I > expect that floppy-less Windows PCs will shortly become the rule. We're > actively investigating the possibility of a USB add-on floppy drive that > will be able to handle most formats. I also anticipate that FDC chips will > become rare birds, so implementation of some sort of FDC through software > of FPGA would seem to be the wise course. I've investigated downloading > special firmware into floppy USB chips, such as that used on the Teac > FD-05U, but Teac has not been forthcoming on the controller chip details > being used in any particular model. Stuff like this makes me *SO* glad that I don't run any m$ crap later than 98, and that I run mostly linux, not to mention not having gotten rid of any of my CP/M boxes... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Jan 11 15:20:36 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:20:36 -0500 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <200601101338.49054.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110012030.03949770@mail.30below.com> <200601101539.k0AFdWAD002093@mail1.magma.ca> <200601101338.49054.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <200601111620.36119.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 10 January 2006 04:38 pm, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Tuesday 10 January 2006 02:33, dave04a at dunfield.com wrote: > > > I second the thanks! > > > > > > To a "hints" list I would add that I had some trouble finding a "good" > > > floppy controller to use with it. After going through 3 Pentium and 2 > > > 486 motherboards with no luck, and the floppy controllers on two > > > different floppy/IDE cards, I finally tried the floppy controller on an > > > Adaptec 1522 SCSI cards which works like a charm. > > > > Most PC FDC's are limited in their ability to access formats not native > > to the PC - This is not a limitation of the ImageDisk program, it is a > > limitation of the FDC implemented on most PC's. I've heard from a > > few people that the Adaptec cards work well. I've had good luck > > personally with the FDCs on both of the Intel Mainboards that I have, as > > well as one Aopen board (although all the other Aopen boards I've tried > > don't fare so well). > > Suggestion to all the folks discussing "Windows" and "Floppy Controllers". > Don't bother. I would simplify that: "Window" -- Don't bother :-) > Pick up an older PC with a FDC that works with ImageDisk, Teledisk, PUTR, > etc. - and create a DOS partition and Linux partiton on it's HDD. You'll > have the best of both worlds. > > Include an older SCSI controller (Adaptec or Buslogic will do) - this lets > one read or write 9-track 800/1600/6250 tapes, TK50Z, 8mm Exabyte, Zip > Disk, etc. as well. > > DOS > --- > ImageDisk, Teledisk for floppy image capture/restoration, > PUTR to handle XXDP/RT/etc. capture/restore > ST to create/restore using *.tap files > FLX to create/restore RSTS media > 22DISK to deal with CP/M-to-DOS Diskette "Interchange" I just recently discovered that in addition to mtools, linux also offers "cpmtools" which work similarly, I'm told. I got the package, but haven't installed it yet as I haven't decided which of the linux boxes here will be the one getting a 5.25" drive stuck in it. > etc. > > Linux > ----- > "dd", etc. to copy media > > Windows doesn't play well with ANY of the software mentioned above... > > Cheers, > Lyle -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Jan 11 11:16:09 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:16:09 +0000 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <200601111556.17917.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200601100956460831.3545114B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060111212310.CZPI17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > > Observations about the floppy interface in NT/2K/XP are accurate. The > > native floppy driver is hard-wired to expect Microsoft-format floppies, > > even to having the boot sector information being critical. (Try clobbering > > a boot sector and then reading an otherwise valid diskette--you'll get a > > general failure). Sydex has quietly made a tidy side business of licensing > > a kernel mode floppy driver for NT and 2K/XP (in addittion to Win9x VxDs) > > to firms needing CP/M (using a DLL interface) or other direct access > > (driver access) to "alien" diskette types. We're currently working on a > > Vista driver. Operations like "sync to the index hole and read a bunch of > > IDs nonstop" are atomic functions with the driver. > > > > While this will keep most of our customers happy for the short term, I > > expect that floppy-less Windows PCs will shortly become the rule. We're > > actively investigating the possibility of a USB add-on floppy drive that > > will be able to handle most formats. I also anticipate that FDC chips will > > become rare birds, so implementation of some sort of FDC through software > > of FPGA would seem to be the wise course. I've investigated downloading > > special firmware into floppy USB chips, such as that used on the Teac > > FD-05U, but Teac has not been forthcoming on the controller chip details > > being used in any particular model. > > Stuff like this makes me *SO* glad that I don't run any m$ crap later than 98, > and that I run mostly linux, not to mention not having gotten rid of any of > my CP/M boxes... I expect that Linux would have similar issues. Basically any OS which uses protected mode will likely disallow application program direct access to system resources, and not expect interrupts to be generated from elsewhere. Any general purpose multiprocessing OS, will likely have issues with real-time critical operations as well. I was corresponding with someone trying to get ImageDisk running DOSemu a while ago, and ran into some of these issues. I pointed out at that time that the only "proper" way to do a program like this under Linix or any other "real" OS would be to put the analysis function and flexibility to read foreign formats into the floppy driver, where you do have direct access to the hardware, and each phase/operation can be initiated in hard real-time by the interrupt generated by the completion of the previous phase ... this is exactly what Chuck is describing with regard to his enhanced drivers. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Jan 11 15:28:07 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:28:07 -0500 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? In-Reply-To: <005901c6162e$f68a4000$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <005901c6162e$f68a4000$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <200601111628.07987.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 10 January 2006 04:43 pm, Jim Beacon wrote: > AVO was a trade mark of "The Automatic Coil Winder and Electrical > Company", who made measuring instruments and coil winders. > > The instruments included meters, valve testers, signal generators, > transistor testers and LCR bridges. > > I have a few manuals for meters and coil winders on my site: > > www.g1jbg.co.uk/service.htm > > if anyone needs them. It's an interesting list, there. I didn't see much on the main page that was of immediate interest but on http://www.g1jbg.co.uk/manuals2.htm I see a thing or two. In particular, this one: Heathkit CL-1 Crystal calibrator And on this one: Wayne Kerr B221 Universal Bridge I'm wondering if that's one of those LCR bridges you mention? I'm intersted in something of the sort, mostly as a means of measuring inductance, a capability currently lacking from my test equipment. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From vrs at msn.com Wed Jan 11 15:51:08 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:51:08 -0800 Subject: IBM DASD and Unit Record equipment on eBay References: <024f01c61619$73491280$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <43C569BC.7090305@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I'd love to have a 4381, but I don't have the space and power right now. > Plus my floor is in danger of collapse. 8-/ How often do they come available? Vince From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Jan 11 16:02:32 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:02:32 -0600 Subject: Non-random numbers (SIMH PDP-8)? In-Reply-To: References: <29d0ba629cf28d.29cf28d29d0ba6@direcway.com> Message-ID: <43C58078.7040509@pacbell.net> Eric J Korpela wrote: > Yep, just checked. RND(1) seems more typical. There are a few basic > dialects listed on my Ahl's simple benchmark page... > > http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/~korpela/ahl/ > > Eric I see the page -- but where the results? That is the most interesting part. Measuring the dc bias of the random generator this way (with only 1000 samples) is pretty meaningless. Here goes for some machines I have at hand that aren't MS BASIC varients. All use the generic BASIC version listed on your page, with exceptions noted. Wang BASIC (1st generation 2200T CPU) Time: 2:46 Accuracy: 1.14320000E-05 Random: 13.68, 22.9, 10.0, 9.5, 2.04, 17.9, 15.6, ... Notes: all math is double precision BCD RND is particularly slow on this BASIC Wang BASIC-2 (2nd generation 2200VP CPU) Time: 4.94 seconds Accuracy: .000000076 Random: 2.16, 4.98, 7.22, 14.01, 27.2, 1.16, 21.7, ... Notes: all math is double precision BCD Processor Technology BASIC/5 Time: 3:52 Accuracy: .1021 Random: 30.2, 19.3, 6.5, 17.1, 4.4, 20.7, 2.1, ... Notes: must use RND(1) must use A=A*A instead of A=A^2 Processor Technology Extended Cassette BASIC Time: 3:17 Accuracy: .0379 Random: 9.79, 13.6, 8.0, 34.6, 23.4, 4.28, ... Notes: must use RND(0); A=A*A instead: time = 1:41, accuracy = .0009 IBM 5120 Time: 39 seconds Accuracy: 3.458354E-10 Random: .042, 0.89, 25.3, 11.4, 9.5, ... Notes: must use RND, and use RND(val) to set the seed only one statement per line allowed numerics are double precision binary TI CC40 Time: 5:42 Accuracy: .00000011 Random: 13.0, 11.7, 5.71, 6.9, 2.1, ... Notes: uses double precision numbers with base-100 encoding I have a few other machines I could run this on, but would require some rearranging to get them set up: HP-87, Heath H89 Benton Harbor BASIC, a few varieties of CP/M BASICs, a TI-74 handheld. From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Jan 11 16:07:15 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:07:15 -0500 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <20060111212310.CZPI17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <200601100956460831.3545114B@10.0.0.252> <20060111212310.CZPI17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200601111707.15744.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 11 January 2006 12:16 pm, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > Observations about the floppy interface in NT/2K/XP are accurate. The > > > native floppy driver is hard-wired to expect Microsoft-format floppies, > > > even to having the boot sector information being critical. (Try > > > clobbering a boot sector and then reading an otherwise valid > > > diskette--you'll get a general failure). Sydex has quietly made a tidy > > > side business of licensing a kernel mode floppy driver for NT and 2K/XP > > > (in addittion to Win9x VxDs) to firms needing CP/M (using a DLL > > > interface) or other direct access (driver access) to "alien" diskette > > > types. We're currently working on a Vista driver. Operations like > > > "sync to the index hole and read a bunch of IDs nonstop" are atomic > > > functions with the driver. > > > > > > While this will keep most of our customers happy for the short term, I > > > expect that floppy-less Windows PCs will shortly become the rule. > > > We're actively investigating the possibility of a USB add-on floppy > > > drive that will be able to handle most formats. I also anticipate that > > > FDC chips will become rare birds, so implementation of some sort of FDC > > > through software of FPGA would seem to be the wise course. I've > > > investigated downloading special firmware into floppy USB chips, such > > > as that used on the Teac FD-05U, but Teac has not been forthcoming on > > > the controller chip details being used in any particular model. > > > > Stuff like this makes me *SO* glad that I don't run any m$ crap later > > than 98, and that I run mostly linux, not to mention not having gotten > > rid of any of my CP/M boxes... > > I expect that Linux would have similar issues. Basically any OS which uses > protected mode will likely disallow application program direct access to > system resources, and not expect interrupts to be generated from elsewhere. > Any general purpose multiprocessing OS, will likely have issues with > real-time critical operations as well. Yes. There are some folks who are using linux to do realtime control, but it takes some kernel hacking, and I am not up on the details of what needs to be done to accomplish this at the moment. Look on linuxcnc.org for more info on that... > I was corresponding with someone trying to get ImageDisk running DOSemu > a while ago, and ran into some of these issues. I pointed out at that time > that the only "proper" way to do a program like this under Linix or any > other "real" OS would be to put the analysis function and flexibility to > read foreign formats into the floppy driver, where you do have direct > access to the hardware, and each phase/operation can be initiated in hard > real-time by the interrupt generated by the completion of the previous > phase ... this is exactly what Chuck is describing with regard to his > enhanced drivers. I haven't gotten into programming under linux to this extent, but I'd guess so. There's "user space" and "kernel space", and all sorts of other things to consider. At this point in time there are _so_ many apps that I find useful that I haven't yet gotten around to poking around on the programming side of things... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jan 11 16:59:34 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:59:34 -0500 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <200601111707.15744.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200601100956460831.3545114B@10.0.0.252> <20060111212310.CZPI17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200601111707.15744.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <20060111175934.36eb7fb9.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:07:15 -0500 "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > On Wednesday 11 January 2006 12:16 pm, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > > Observations about the floppy interface in NT/2K/XP are accurate. The > > > > native floppy driver is hard-wired to expect Microsoft-format floppies, > > > > even to having the boot sector information being critical. (Try > > > > clobbering a boot sector and then reading an otherwise valid > > > > diskette--you'll get a general failure). Sydex has quietly made a tidy > > > > side business of licensing a kernel mode floppy driver for NT and 2K/XP > > > > (in addittion to Win9x VxDs) to firms needing CP/M (using a DLL > > > > interface) or other direct access (driver access) to "alien" diskette > > > > types. We're currently working on a Vista driver. Operations like > > > > "sync to the index hole and read a bunch of IDs nonstop" are atomic > > > > functions with the driver. > > > > > > > > While this will keep most of our customers happy for the short term, I > > > > expect that floppy-less Windows PCs will shortly become the rule. > > > > We're actively investigating the possibility of a USB add-on floppy > > > > drive that will be able to handle most formats. I also anticipate that > > > > FDC chips will become rare birds, so implementation of some sort of FDC > > > > through software of FPGA would seem to be the wise course. I've > > > > investigated downloading special firmware into floppy USB chips, such > > > > as that used on the Teac FD-05U, but Teac has not been forthcoming on > > > > the controller chip details being used in any particular model. > > > > > > Stuff like this makes me *SO* glad that I don't run any m$ crap later > > > than 98, and that I run mostly linux, not to mention not having gotten > > > rid of any of my CP/M boxes... > > > > I expect that Linux would have similar issues. Basically any OS which uses > > protected mode will likely disallow application program direct access to > > system resources, and not expect interrupts to be generated from elsewhere. > > Any general purpose multiprocessing OS, will likely have issues with > > real-time critical operations as well. > > Yes. There are some folks who are using linux to do realtime control, but it > takes some kernel hacking, and I am not up on the details of what needs to > be done to accomplish this at the moment. Look on linuxcnc.org for more info > on that... > > > I was corresponding with someone trying to get ImageDisk running DOSemu > > a while ago, and ran into some of these issues. I pointed out at that time > > that the only "proper" way to do a program like this under Linix or any > > other "real" OS would be to put the analysis function and flexibility to > > read foreign formats into the floppy driver, where you do have direct > > access to the hardware, and each phase/operation can be initiated in hard > > real-time by the interrupt generated by the completion of the previous > > phase ... this is exactly what Chuck is describing with regard to his > > enhanced drivers. > > I haven't gotten into programming under linux to this extent, but I'd guess > so. There's "user space" and "kernel space", and all sorts of other things > to consider. At this point in time there are _so_ many apps that I find > useful that I haven't yet gotten around to poking around on the programming > side of things... :-) > My feeling on the matter is that when a computer is being used to image and/or salvage data off of non-native disks, it is being used as a piece of test equipment, not as a general purpose computer. As such, it's 'legitimate' to run it as root, dig deep into the driver hierarchy and kernel, etc. A lot of the real power of a diskette imaging/analyzing system will be deep within the system. So making distinctions between 'user space' and 'kernel space' might be interesting, but ultimately are irrelevant. A piece of test equipment is designed for a specific purpose, and a computer repurposed to something like this will be as well. From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Jan 11 17:07:15 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:07:15 -0500 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <20060111175934.36eb7fb9.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200601100956460831.3545114B@10.0.0.252> <200601111707.15744.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060111175934.36eb7fb9.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200601111807.15722.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 11 January 2006 05:59 pm, Scott Stevens wrote: > On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:07:15 -0500 > > "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > > On Wednesday 11 January 2006 12:16 pm, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > > > Observations about the floppy interface in NT/2K/XP are accurate. > > > > > The native floppy driver is hard-wired to expect Microsoft-format > > > > > floppies, even to having the boot sector information being > > > > > critical. (Try clobbering a boot sector and then reading an > > > > > otherwise valid diskette--you'll get a general failure). Sydex has > > > > > quietly made a tidy side business of licensing a kernel mode floppy > > > > > driver for NT and 2K/XP (in addittion to Win9x VxDs) to firms > > > > > needing CP/M (using a DLL interface) or other direct access > > > > > (driver access) to "alien" diskette types. We're currently > > > > > working on a Vista driver. Operations like "sync to the index hole > > > > > and read a bunch of IDs nonstop" are atomic functions with the > > > > > driver. > > > > > > > > > > While this will keep most of our customers happy for the short > > > > > term, I expect that floppy-less Windows PCs will shortly become the > > > > > rule. We're actively investigating the possibility of a USB add-on > > > > > floppy drive that will be able to handle most formats. I also > > > > > anticipate that FDC chips will become rare birds, so implementation > > > > > of some sort of FDC through software of FPGA would seem to be the > > > > > wise course. I've investigated downloading special firmware into > > > > > floppy USB chips, such as that used on the Teac FD-05U, but Teac > > > > > has not been forthcoming on the controller chip details being used > > > > > in any particular model. > > > > > > > > Stuff like this makes me *SO* glad that I don't run any m$ crap later > > > > than 98, and that I run mostly linux, not to mention not having > > > > gotten rid of any of my CP/M boxes... > > > > > > I expect that Linux would have similar issues. Basically any OS which > > > uses protected mode will likely disallow application program direct > > > access to system resources, and not expect interrupts to be generated > > > from elsewhere. Any general purpose multiprocessing OS, will likely > > > have issues with real-time critical operations as well. > > > > Yes. There are some folks who are using linux to do realtime control, > > but it takes some kernel hacking, and I am not up on the details of what > > needs to be done to accomplish this at the moment. Look on linuxcnc.org > > for more info on that... > > > > > I was corresponding with someone trying to get ImageDisk running DOSemu > > > a while ago, and ran into some of these issues. I pointed out at that > > > time that the only "proper" way to do a program like this under Linix > > > or any other "real" OS would be to put the analysis function and > > > flexibility to read foreign formats into the floppy driver, where you > > > do have direct access to the hardware, and each phase/operation can be > > > initiated in hard real-time by the interrupt generated by the > > > completion of the previous phase ... this is exactly what Chuck is > > > describing with regard to his enhanced drivers. > > > > I haven't gotten into programming under linux to this extent, but I'd > > guess so. There's "user space" and "kernel space", and all sorts of > > other things to consider. At this point in time there are _so_ many apps > > that I find useful that I haven't yet gotten around to poking around on > > the programming side of things... :-) > > My feeling on the matter is that when a computer is being used to > image and/or salvage data off of non-native disks, it is being > used as a piece of test equipment, not as a general purpose > computer. As such, it's 'legitimate' to run it as root, dig deep > into the driver hierarchy and kernel, etc. I would tend to agree with this. > A lot of the real power of a diskette imaging/analyzing system will be deep > within the system. So making distinctions between 'user space' and > 'kernel space' might be interesting, but ultimately are irrelevant. Maybe relevant in terms of what you have to do while programming, though. Just a guess, as I haven't ventured there yet. > A piece of test equipment is designed for a specific purpose, and a computer > repurposed to something like this will be as well. Yup. Only problem is, I really don't have enough room here to stick another machine dedicated to reading CP/M disks, so I guess one of my other boxes is going to have to do... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Jan 11 13:09:25 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 19:09:25 +0000 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <20060111175934.36eb7fb9.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200601111707.15744.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <20060111231622.GJWB15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > My feeling on the matter is that when a computer is being used to > image and/or salvage data off of non-native disks, it is being > used as a piece of test equipment, not as a general purpose > computer. As such, it's 'legitimate' to run it as root, dig deep > into the driver hierarchy and kernel, etc. A lot of the real > power of a diskette imaging/analyzing system will be deep within > the system. So making distinctions between 'user space' and > 'kernel space' might be interesting, but ultimately are > irrelevant. A piece of test equipment is designed for a specific > purpose, and a computer repurposed to something like this will be > as well. I agree with this, which is why I keep DOS machines around in my workshop - I've got lots of specialized stuff that I created which manipulates various hardware directly, and DOS is the best platform for this - also it gives me the most real-time stable environment. Even if you don't want to dedicate the whole machine as a DOS box, you can put on a small partition containing the stuff that needs access to the "bare metal" (like ImageDisk) and boot it as needed. Regarding ImageDisk and Linux - all I see needed to do it properly are some enhancements to the floppy driver - the ability to configure for all possible formats the 765 can do (if Linux does not do this already which I think it might), and the ability to do track-by-track analysis. These things would be easy to do in the driver. Then the "ImageDisk" program becomes a simple application which makes IOCTL calls to analze the disk, and configures the controller, and then simply reads sectors off and writes the .IMD file. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jan 11 17:18:04 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:18:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM DASD and Unit Record equipment on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > How often do they come available? Not often, but about eight months ago, one sold on Ebay for a buck. I found it just hours after the auction ended. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Jan 11 13:27:15 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 19:27:15 +0000 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <20060111175934.36eb7fb9.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200601111707.15744.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <20060111233411.FBJL17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > My feeling on the matter is that when a computer is being used to > image and/or salvage data off of non-native disks, it is being > used as a piece of test equipment, not as a general purpose > computer. Regarding "not having room for multiple computers" (which I apparently just deleted).... Almost all of my machines here have drive carriers in them - this lets me easily swap the hard drive - so the system can "become" whatever I want it to at any time. I have winblows drives, Linux drives and DOS drives, and often several flavors of each for a given machine. My "ImageDisk" system has a standard 3.5" floppy mounted in the case, and a cable I made up that gives me a 37-pin 'D' connector on the back which allows me to connect anything I want as drive B: via a cable (I have details of constructing this cable set on my web site) - Drive B: is not even configured in the CMOS, so as far as all of the OS's are concerned, only the internal 3.5" drive exists. Since ImageDisk doesn't refer to the CMOS, and talks directly to the drive, it has no trouble with this arrangement. The cable that plugs in to the 37-pin 'D' connector has a standard 5.25" drive connector, and I have an adapter which I constructed to allow this to connect to an 8" drive as well (details on the adapter are also on my web site). Although I rarely use it, I also have an adapter which lets me use this cable to connect a second 3.5" drive. So - if I want this to be a standard Linix or Winblows machine, I just put in the appropriate drive. When I want to do ImageIng, I stuff in a DOS drive and connect whatever floppy type I need via the rear connector. I built a little power-supply that gives me +5, +12 and +24v and the various power cables, so I literally put the external drive and power supply "bare" on the desk. (If you don't need to do 8" drives, you could also just bring out an extension from a drive power cable in the system). I have a DOS client which allows me to move the images from the DOS boot to my server, and from there I can put them anywhere. You could also use a USB key (I got the USB drivers working in DOS - thanks). If you don't want to use multiple hard-drives, all you need is a very small DOS partition (or even a DOS boot floppy with the USB or network drivers). If you have only one machine, I HIGHLY recommend the use of drive carriers to give you completely independant uses for that machine (I recommend them even if you have multiple machines - I've just counted 12 PC's in this room alone, and 8 of them are outfitted with drive carriers. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jan 11 17:47:25 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:47:25 -0800 Subject: Unknown Honeywell tape drive - Help! References: <43C2CF04.20006@hachti.de> Message-ID: <43C5990D.EF5513D7@cs.ubc.ca> > At 10:00 PM +0100 1/9/06, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >I can get an old Honeywell type drive. But I know literally nothing > >about it. Not even the model number...! > > > >Here is a link to a few pictures I've received today: > > > >http://hachti.de/honeywell-tape/ Interesting, from the pictures I think I recognise the head and tape-guide assembly a friend gave me from a drive he dismantled some time ago. I had been wondering what manufacture/model-line it came from, your pictures provide a possible answer (might be another OEM). The head which I received was 7-track, not 9-track, so you may have a 7-track drive there, although it's conceivable the same mechanism was used with a 9-track head. Would be interesting to here which it is if/when you receive it. On the mechanism I received a big vacuum cyclinder was used to rotate the heads into/out-of contact with the tape, presumably to reduce wear on the copper-clad heads. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Jan 11 17:50:27 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:50:27 -0800 Subject: IBM DASD and Unit Record equipment on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C599C3.8060107@msm.umr.edu> William Donzelli wrote: >>How often do they come available? >> >> > >Not often, but about eight months ago, one sold on Ebay for a buck. I >found it just hours after the auction ended. > > the $1.00 one had no power supply. I believe this guy isn't lying when he says he has a working unit. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 11 17:53:17 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:53:17 -0800 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <200601111556.17917.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110012030.03949770@mail.30below.com> <000801c61601$32fc4610$2101a8c0@finans> <200601100956460831.3545114B@10.0.0.252> <200601111556.17917.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200601111553170573.011EF9C1@10.0.0.252> Just a note on doing "read-ID" nonstop, even on multi-tasking systems. If you're processing interrupts yourself and the system has some sort of guaranteed maximum latency for ISRs, you can fire out another Read ID command from within the ISR. Since the 765 fires the interrupt as soon as it reads an ID, there's a considerable amount of time to do this. Cheers, Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jan 11 18:15:45 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 19:15:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM DASD and Unit Record equipment on eBay In-Reply-To: <43C599C3.8060107@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: > the $1.00 one had no power supply. I believe this guy isn't lying when he says he has > > a working unit. Details, details... Actually, I do not recall reading that in the auction description. You are talking about the one the surfaced in Atlanta, correct? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 11 18:23:17 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:23:17 -0700 Subject: IBM DASD and Unit Record equipment on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:50:27 -0800. <43C599C3.8060107@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: Well I did give a "heads up" to the computer history museum folks in case they want to snatch it up :-). They certainly have the right network for putting such a thing in a working state, plus the seller is in Portland, so transporation isn't *too* crazy. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 11 18:09:21 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 17:09:21 -0700 Subject: Calcomp 1044 Message-ID: Wow.... opening bid was $100 and it was bid up to $500! I guess these old larger format pen plotters are still in demand! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jan 11 18:28:03 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:28:03 -0600 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <20060111231622.GJWB15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <200601111707.15744.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060111231622.GJWB15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <43C5A293.2010802@mdrconsult.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Regarding ImageDisk and Linux - all I see needed to do it properly are > some enhancements to the floppy driver - the ability to configure for all > possible formats the 765 can do (if Linux does not do this already which > I think it might), and the ability to do track-by-track analysis. These things > would be easy to do in the driver. Then the "ImageDisk" program becomes > a simple application which makes IOCTL calls to analze the disk, and > configures the controller, and then simply reads sectors off and writes the > .IMD file. Here's what the linux floppy driver already handles. Note that the kernel uses the device node's minor number to specify sides/tracks/sector/density, as well as the drive's ID. Also note that there are a lot of minor numbers available if you wanted to add formats. This is excerpted from /Documentation/devices.txt. That file also gives details concerning submissions for the list and having major/minor numbers officially assigned to your device[s]. Major 2 block Floppy disks 0 = /dev/fd0 Controller 0, drive 0, autodetect 1 = /dev/fd1 Controller 0, drive 1, autodetect 2 = /dev/fd2 Controller 0, drive 2, autodetect 3 = /dev/fd3 Controller 0, drive 3, autodetect 128 = /dev/fd4 Controller 1, drive 0, autodetect 129 = /dev/fd5 Controller 1, drive 1, autodetect 130 = /dev/fd6 Controller 1, drive 2, autodetect 131 = /dev/fd7 Controller 1, drive 3, autodetect To specify format, add to the autodetect device number: 0 = /dev/fd? Autodetect format 4 = /dev/fd?d360 5.25" 360K in a 360K drive(1) 20 = /dev/fd?h360 5.25" 360K in a 1200K drive(1) 48 = /dev/fd?h410 5.25" 410K in a 1200K drive 64 = /dev/fd?h420 5.25" 420K in a 1200K drive 24 = /dev/fd?h720 5.25" 720K in a 1200K drive 80 = /dev/fd?h880 5.25" 880K in a 1200K drive(1) 8 = /dev/fd?h1200 5.25" 1200K in a 1200K drive(1) 40 = /dev/fd?h1440 5.25" 1440K in a 1200K drive(1) 56 = /dev/fd?h1476 5.25" 1476K in a 1200K drive 72 = /dev/fd?h1494 5.25" 1494K in a 1200K drive 92 = /dev/fd?h1600 5.25" 1600K in a 1200K drive(1) 12 = /dev/fd?u360 3.5" 360K Double Density(2) 16 = /dev/fd?u720 3.5" 720K Double Density(1) 120 = /dev/fd?u800 3.5" 800K Double Density(2) 52 = /dev/fd?u820 3.5" 820K Double Density 68 = /dev/fd?u830 3.5" 830K Double Density 84 = /dev/fd?u1040 3.5" 1040K Double Density(1) 88 = /dev/fd?u1120 3.5" 1120K Double Density(1) 28 = /dev/fd?u1440 3.5" 1440K High Density(1) 124 = /dev/fd?u1600 3.5" 1600K High Density(1) 44 = /dev/fd?u1680 3.5" 1680K High Density(3) 60 = /dev/fd?u1722 3.5" 1722K High Density 76 = /dev/fd?u1743 3.5" 1743K High Density 96 = /dev/fd?u1760 3.5" 1760K High Density 116 = /dev/fd?u1840 3.5" 1840K High Density(3) 100 = /dev/fd?u1920 3.5" 1920K High Density(1) 32 = /dev/fd?u2880 3.5" 2880K Extra Density(1) 104 = /dev/fd?u3200 3.5" 3200K Extra Density 108 = /dev/fd?u3520 3.5" 3520K Extra Density 112 = /dev/fd?u3840 3.5" 3840K Extra Density(1) 36 = /dev/fd?CompaQ Compaq 2880K drive; obsolete? (1) Autodetectable format (2) Autodetectable format in a Double Density (720K) drive only (3) Autodetectable format in a High Density (1440K) drive only NOTE: The letter in the device name (d, q, h or u) signifies the type of drive: 5.25" Double Density (d), 5.25" Quad Density (q), 5.25" High Density (h) or 3.5" (any model, u). The use of the capital letters D, H and E for the 3.5" models have been deprecated, since the drive type is insignificant for these devices. Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 11 17:44:05 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 23:44:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <10601110033.ZM14002@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jan 11, 6 00:33:07 am Message-ID: > > On Jan 10 2006, 15:40, Fred Cisin wrote: > > I have a workroom that has a large sink with hot and cold water flow, > a > > parts washer made by Maytag, a big box made by Kenmore for chilling > and > > storing cold stuff, including a section that stays below 0 degrees c, That's quite useful for storing photographic film too :-) Or at least that's what ours contains in part... > a > > box for heating stuff (thermostatic control up to about 500 degrees > F) > > made by Tappan, (heating and chilling stuff can make assembly a lot > > easier) > > Good for baking stuff that's been spray-painted, too, and for drying > plastic sheet prior to impact or thermoforming. Essential for > polycarbonate and some types of Perspex. If it's the type with a fan, > it's also good for the actual thermoforming, though you can also use > your infrared heater for that. There have been peojects in Elektor and Circuit Cellar Ink (IIRC) to convert small versions of that device into SMD soldering units. The one in Elektor claimed it would do BGA devices. Basically, you replace the thermostat with a microcontroller acting as a PID controller with a thermocouple sensor. It is recomended if you do this that you don't use the device for its original application. Lead (from solder) in the products it was designed for, or greases/fats on your SMD boards don't help. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 11 18:19:35 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 00:19:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <20060111231622.GJWB15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jan 11, 6 07:09:25 pm Message-ID: > Regarding ImageDisk and Linux - all I see needed to do it properly are > some enhancements to the floppy driver - the ability to configure for all > possible formats the 765 can do (if Linux does not do this already which AFAIK linux does do this already. Bsically, there is an ioctl() call that lets you sent any sequence of command bytes to the disk controller. The linux driver (not your program) takes care of selecting the drive, controlling the motor, and setting up the DMA controller (you tell it how many bytes to transfer and give a pointer to the buffer you want them put in, Linux takes care of the 64K boundary problem on ISA machines, etc). I think that should be veratile enough. Certainly I've never found a disk that can't be read/written using this call if the hardware is capable of it. OK, the tricks of swithcing between drives mid-sector, or pulsing the motor line in an attempt to control the speed won't work, but I don't think Imagedisk uses those. > I think it might), and the ability to do track-by-track analysis. These things Yes, you would have to add that. It is too time-critical to do in user-space. -tony From kenziem at sympatico.ca Wed Jan 11 19:31:50 2006 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 20:31:50 -0500 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <20060111231622.GJWB15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <200601111707.15744.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060111231622.GJWB15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200601112031.50806.kenziem@sympatico.ca> On Wednesday 11 January 2006 2:09 pm, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > Regarding ImageDisk and Linux - all I see needed to do it properly are > some enhancements to the floppy driver - the ability to configure for all > possible formats the 765 can do (if Linux does not do this already which > I think it might), and the ability to do track-by-track analysis. These > things would be easy to do in the driver. Then the "ImageDisk" program > becomes a simple application which makes IOCTL calls to analze the disk, > and configures the controller, and then simply reads sectors off and writes > the .IMD file. Just a quick check of devices.txt show these floppy formats currently supported on a stock SuSE install 0 = /dev/fd? Autodetect format 4 = /dev/fd?d360 5.25" 360K in a 360K drive(1) 20 = /dev/fd?h360 5.25" 360K in a 1200K drive(1) 48 = /dev/fd?h410 5.25" 410K in a 1200K drive 64 = /dev/fd?h420 5.25" 420K in a 1200K drive 24 = /dev/fd?h720 5.25" 720K in a 1200K drive 80 = /dev/fd?h880 5.25" 880K in a 1200K drive(1) 8 = /dev/fd?h1200 5.25" 1200K in a 1200K drive(1) 40 = /dev/fd?h1440 5.25" 1440K in a 1200K drive(1) 56 = /dev/fd?h1476 5.25" 1476K in a 1200K drive 72 = /dev/fd?h1494 5.25" 1494K in a 1200K drive 92 = /dev/fd?h1600 5.25" 1600K in a 1200K drive(1) 12 = /dev/fd?u360 3.5" 360K Double Density(2) 16 = /dev/fd?u720 3.5" 720K Double Density(1) 120 = /dev/fd?u800 3.5" 800K Double Density(2) 52 = /dev/fd?u820 3.5" 820K Double Density 68 = /dev/fd?u830 3.5" 830K Double Density 84 = /dev/fd?u1040 3.5" 1040K Double Density(1) 88 = /dev/fd?u1120 3.5" 1120K Double Density(1) 28 = /dev/fd?u1440 3.5" 1440K High Density(1) 124 = /dev/fd?u1600 3.5" 1600K High Density(1) 44 = /dev/fd?u1680 3.5" 1680K High Density(3) 60 = /dev/fd?u1722 3.5" 1722K High Density 76 = /dev/fd?u1743 3.5" 1743K High Density 96 = /dev/fd?u1760 3.5" 1760K High Density 116 = /dev/fd?u1840 3.5" 1840K High Density(3) 100 = /dev/fd?u1920 3.5" 1920K High Density(1) 32 = /dev/fd?u2880 3.5" 2880K Extra Density(1) 104 = /dev/fd?u3200 3.5" 3200K Extra Density 108 = /dev/fd?u3520 3.5" 3520K Extra Density 112 = /dev/fd?u3840 3.5" 3840K Extra Density(1) 36 = /dev/fd?CompaQ Compaq 2880K drive; obsolete? (1) Autodetectable format (2) Autodetectable format in a Double Density (720K) drive only (3) Autodetectable format in a High Density (1440K) drive only NOTE: The letter in the device name (d, q, h or u) signifies the type of drive: 5.25" Double Density (d), 5.25" Quad Density (q), 5.25" High Density (h) or 3.5" (any model, u). Filesystem support is another matter. From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Jan 11 20:13:02 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 21:13:02 -0500 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <20060111233411.FBJL17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <200601111707.15744.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060111233411.FBJL17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200601112113.02351.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 11 January 2006 02:27 pm, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > My feeling on the matter is that when a computer is being used to > > image and/or salvage data off of non-native disks, it is being > > used as a piece of test equipment, not as a general purpose > > computer. > > Regarding "not having room for multiple computers" (which I apparently > just deleted).... Heh. There are three monitors on my desk, four machines above it on the "second level" I built when things started getting tight, and a (seldom-used) monitor sitting on top of those, as well as a couple of printers, a 16-port hub, and two external modems. Then there's another system on another desk as well. If I could figure out where to put more of them in this room I would, but there's two metal shelving units in here, a couple of file cabinets, a wooden shelf, three cardfiles, and way too much other junk. It's possible to walk around the room but you gotta be careful, because there's also 3 full towers and 5 others sitting there as well, plus almost a couple dozen UPSs. :-) > Almost all of my machines here have drive carriers in them - this lets me > easily swap the hard drive - so the system can "become" whatever I want > it to at any time. I have winblows drives, Linux drives and DOS drives, and > often several flavors of each for a given machine. I like that idea, but then you gotta buy those things, and I hsve no funds to spend on any computer hardware at this point in time. > My "ImageDisk" system has a standard 3.5" floppy mounted in the case, > and a cable I made up that gives me a 37-pin 'D' connector on the back > which allows me to connect anything I want as drive B: via a cable (I have > details of constructing this cable set on my web site) - Drive B: is not > even configured in the CMOS, so as far as all of the OS's are concerned, > only the internal 3.5" drive exists. Since ImageDisk doesn't refer to the > CMOS, and talks directly to the drive, it has no trouble with this > arrangement. I have somewhere around here the original IBM card that has the DB37 on the back of it, and may even have a cable, though it's not terribly long -- somewhere I have a box that had a single external half-height floppy and a teeny little switching power supply in it. I may also have some tape drive hardware that was set up with the same connector. Dunno if I have any DB37s around or not, not without looking. The trouble with that IBM card, and some of the other 8-bit cards, is that the board projects down into the area next to the edge connector and it won't plug into an ISA slot, so I'd have to use something a bit older, with an 8-bit slot and no parts in the way. > The cable that plugs in to the 37-pin 'D' connector has a standard 5.25" > drive connector, and I have an adapter which I constructed to allow this > to connect to an 8" drive as well (details on the adapter are also on my > web site). Although I rarely use it, I also have an adapter which lets me > use this cable to connect a second 3.5" drive. Hmm. :-) I at one time had plans of bringing out the pin headers on my Bigboard II to the front panel, that was gonna be a general purpose test machine, with plugs for both sizes of floppy and a SASI connector as well. I'd planned to use those "Centronics-style" connectors, and may actually even have gotten as far as getting the connectors, I don't recall. Oh yeah, and I had all sorts of power (+5, +12, and even +24 for 8 inch drives as well as 117vac for some 8" spindles) connected to an octal socket on the front panel. > So - if I want this to be a standard Linix or Winblows machine, I just put > in the appropriate drive. When I want to do ImageIng, I stuff in a DOS > drive and connect whatever floppy type I need via the rear connector. > I built a little power-supply that gives me +5, +12 and +24v and the > various power cables, so I literally put the external drive and power > supply "bare" on the desk. (If you don't need to do 8" drives, you could > also just bring out an extension from a drive power cable in the system). Got that covered, already... > I have a DOS client which allows me to move the images from the DOS > boot to my server, and from there I can put them anywhere. You could > also use a USB key (I got the USB drivers working in DOS - thanks). I have *no* USB hardware here at all yet, though I do have the capability on some of the MBs. I did buy a gizmo that has a slot bracket and the external connectors that plugs into the pin header on the MB, but haven't tried it out with anything yet. What are you using for networking under dos? Best I've been able to do is to load a packet driver (3c509) and then an ftp program, but that at least lets me move stuff around. DOS networking stuff is a mess, as far as what I've encountered so far, with shims, drivers, and assorted specialized bits. People keep pointing me at the m$ stuff, three floppies worth of download and what you end up with after the _install_ process is completed is a whole big honkin' tree full of assorted subdirectories and files, and I'm sure that I don't want to go there. I haven't tried drdos or some of the other stuff that may offer networking features. > If you don't want to use multiple hard-drives, all you need is a very small > DOS partition (or even a DOS boot floppy with the USB or network > drivers). This would be fine to set up in a workbench computer (assuming that I ever get my workbenches out of storage and have some place to set them up again). But the three machines that are on here currently are on 24/7, I don't shut them down, and I don't reboot them. One's a firewall/router, one's a server, and the other one is this workstation, currently showing an uptime of 72 days and change. Agreed that dos is a good choice for a test bench computer, though, unless I put one of my CP/M boxes back to work. :-) > If you have only one machine, I HIGHLY recommend the use of drive > carriers to give you completely independant uses for that machine (I > recommend them even if you have multiple machines - I've just counted > 12 PC's in this room alone, and 8 of them are outfitted with drive > carriers. If by chance I should acquire some I'll surely put them to good use... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Jan 11 20:50:48 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 03:50:48 +0100 Subject: Non-random numbers (SIMH PDP-8)? In-Reply-To: <200601120029.k0C0ST8R078049@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601120029.k0C0ST8R078049@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43C5C408.909@update.uu.se> Eric J Korpela wrote: > Some BASICs used RND(0) to get the previous random number and RND(1) > to generate a new number. Some used the reverse... Others used > RND(N) to generate a number between 0 and N. > > I think most DEC basics used RND(1) to generate a new number (except > for VAX basic, which, IIRC just used a pseudovariable called RND to > generate random numbers). BASIC+2 (on the PDP-11): .help/bp2 fun buil rnd The RND function returns a random number greater than or equal to zero and less than one. Format real-vbl = RND Example 990 R_num = RND .help/bp2 sta random The RANDOMIZE statement gives the random number function, RND, a new starting point. Format { RANDOMIZE } { RANDOM } Example 45 RANDOMIZE --- I know of other BASICs as well who used that convention. > Yep, just checked. RND(1) seems more typical. There are a few basic > dialects listed on my Ahl's simple benchmark page... I'd say it might be a bit hasty to say so. Many of those dialects you have there are really the same. Very many Micro computers used Microsofts BASIC. I wouldn't call that different dialects. Anyhow, I grabbed the VAX BASIC version and compiled it on a PPD-11 with RSX and BASIC+2. Here is the result: .run rand 340 iterations. .588235E-01 seconds per iteration Accuracy .685425E-01 Random 6.23425 Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Jan 11 16:39:49 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:39:49 +0000 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <200601112113.02351.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <20060111233411.FBJL17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20060112025247.JJPU15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Heh. There are three monitors on my desk, four machines above it on the > "second level" I built when things started getting tight, and a > (seldom-used) monitor sitting on top of those, I think I already mentioned "KVM". > > Almost all of my machines here have drive carriers in them - this lets me > I like that idea, but then you gotta buy those things, and I hsve no funds > to spend on any computer hardware at this point in time. New they cost me something like $15, but I've found a number at a local computer flea market for $1-$2. A lot cheaper than another system. > I have somewhere around here the original IBM card that has the DB37 on the > back of it, If you are not doing any HD or 8", this might work (except for the physical problem you mentioned) - Check my web site I have details on how I put together the cable system. I have the 37-pin 'D' connector mounted on a card backplate in an empty PCI slot. If you don't have a suitable backplate, you can make one from a DB-25 backplate with a bit of patience and a nibbling tool. > What are you using for networking under dos? Best I've been able to do is to > load a packet driver (3c509) and then an ftp program, but that at least lets > me move stuff around. DOS networking stuff is a mess, Getting full networking running with TCP/IP is daunting, but it can be done. I generally use a simpler route - I use the network client from Windows for Workgroups - which can be distilled down to 12 files (counting the NDIS driver for your network card) in a single directory, accessing my win2k server via NETBEUI. This is *VERY* easy to get working, I can send you the info. Anyhow - what compromises you are willing to make with your machines is your own business ... right now ImageDisk (and Teledisk) are only available for DOS and close compatibiles, so if you want to make or create images, it might be worthwhile finding a way to at least temporarily run it. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Jan 11 16:39:49 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:39:49 +0000 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <200601111553170573.011EF9C1@10.0.0.252> References: <200601111556.17917.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <20060112025253.JJSP15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Just a note on doing "read-ID" nonstop, even on multi-tasking systems. > > If you're processing interrupts yourself and the system has some sort of > guaranteed maximum latency for ISRs, you can fire out another Read ID > command from within the ISR. Since the 765 fires the interrupt as soon as > it reads an ID, there's a considerable amount of time to do this. That was exactly my point - the analysis can be done in the driver (and hence the interrupt handler) without much trouble, however on a multitasking system, you cannot guarantee the real time requirement at the application level. Using the interrupt from one event to start the next event aliminates the task priority system entirely, and the only variability you may encounter is the interrupt latency, which would usually be acceptably low (unless you have other processor intensive interrupts, or mis-behaving applications which disable interrupts for extended periods of time, it should easily be within a sector time. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 11 20:54:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 18:54:03 -0800 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <200601112113.02351.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200601111707.15744.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060111233411.FBJL17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200601112113.02351.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200601111854030211.01C47459@10.0.0.252> On 1/11/2006 at 9:13 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >around or not, not without looking. The trouble with that IBM card, and >some of the other 8-bit cards, is that the board projects down into the >area next to the edge connector and it won't plug into an ISA slot, so I'd >have to use something a bit older, with an 8-bit slot and no parts in the way. It does? This is the original IBM card with an 8272 on top and three IBM hybrid circuits (U19 U20 and U21) near the front (PC front) bottom--and simply labeled "DISKETTE"? Mine doesn't project downward at all--I can fit it into a 16-bit ISA slot just fine. Cheers, Chuck From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jan 11 21:20:19 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:20:19 -0500 Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: References: <200601110127.k0B1RUlc010020@onyx.spiritone.com> <200601110150.RAA12964@floodgap.com> <20060110220142.6c17f4ea.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20060111222019.718377ad.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 20:13:51 -0800 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > At 10:01 PM -0500 1/10/06, Scott Stevens wrote: > >have.) Years ago I ran Executor (a commercial 68k Mac emulator) > >on a Linux system simultaneously with Wine (the Windows > > I remember the demo version of Executor on Linux fondly, it made it > possible to take stuff I downloaded on my P90 laptop and put it on > Mac floppies so that I could read them on my PowerBook 520c. > > Yes, there was a reason I had a Pentium 90 laptop and a PowerBook > 520c, I was living onboard an Aircraft carrier, and didn't even have > room for them. I bought the P90 laptop just before I became > disillusioned with OS/2, and decided to switch to the Mac. The sad > thing is the no-name P90 laptop is still running, the display went > out on the 520c after just over a year. > I have some results to report to anybody interested in this emulation business. I built the PearPC binary on this NetBSD system (a Pentium III machine) but it only supports the 'new' mac stuff. It emulates a PPC but I saw nothing about support for anything but Darwin, the Free UNIXes, and OS X. So I started investigating a 68K Mac emulator. BasiliskII is what it's called. You have to own a 'real' Mac to use it, because you need to extract the ROM image. I brought up my Powerbook 165c (one of my favorite Macs, personally) and using a mix-switch setup was able to get the ROM over to the NetBSD system (a very roundabout process, bringing the ROM imaging software into the Mac on a DOS floppy and the ROM image back off the Mac on the same disk). I don't have a real working floppy drive, I have discovered (*sigh*) on the Pentium III machine running NetBSD so I dug around in my Macintosh system CDS and found ONE that would boot with the Powerbook165c ROM. It turns out to be a 'Power Macintosh 5400 series' CD that will boot up on the emulator, but then will NOT install on it. So I created an image file to be the Mac hard drive, booted the CD, formatted the drive image, then simply dragged the system folder over from the 5400 Series boot CD. The drive image now boots! So I used the dd command to make a copy of the Hard Drive image, added it to the ~/.basilisk_ii_prefs file, and initialized it a second 'drive' to install System 7.5 on. Dragged in Shrinkwrapped images of system 7.5 install floppies off a CDROM, mounted 'em and by clicking over to the Basilisk II window, I see that the 'Installation was successful' dialogue has popped up. This is a lot of fun, and I recommend it strongly to anybody interested. There are binaries for Windows NT type systems, if you don't run a Freenix. It's just emulation, but you can't run BasiliskII if you don't already have a Mac to pull the ROM image off of, so the price-of-entry for non-pirates is to own a running classic Mac to pull the ROM image from. Next, it might be time to fire up the Quadra 650. It has a newer ROM and I can maybe install System 8.0 on image drives with that ROM image. Next, it's time to make a BIG drive image so I can install ClarisWorks and MS Office and all that stuff on my new Mac. > Zane > > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From news at computercollector.com Wed Jan 11 21:52:59 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:52:59 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists Message-ID: <002301c6172b$af297480$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Someone copied almost my ENTIRE pda history site onto the web forum at http://tinyurl.com/bhvpv ... Does anyone know what the deal is with this "britishinformation.com" site anyway? The thief who stole my work even included the hyperlinks but they don't work. The site includes a web form for contacting them so I sent a not-so-nice message, but I'm not optimistic about hearing back. Unfortunately I don't see any way to contact the user who posted this. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Jan 11 22:04:15 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 23:04:15 -0500 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <20060112025247.JJPU15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060111233411.FBJL17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060112025247.JJPU15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200601112304.15418.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 11 January 2006 05:39 pm, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > Heh. There are three monitors on my desk, four machines above it on the > > "second level" I built when things started getting tight, and a > > (seldom-used) monitor sitting on top of those, > > I think I already mentioned "KVM". Got one of those, too, only I haven't decided where I might use it just yet. It came along with a bunch of other stuff... > > > Almost all of my machines here have drive carriers in them - this lets > > > me > > > > I like that idea, but then you gotta buy those things, and I hsve no > > funds to spend on any computer hardware at this point in time. > > New they cost me something like $15, but I've found a number at a local > computer flea market for $1-$2. A lot cheaper than another system. Most of my recent acquisitions have been zero cost. Prolonged periods of zero income will do that to you. > > I have somewhere around here the original IBM card that has the DB37 on > > the back of it, > > If you are not doing any HD or 8", this might work (except for the physical > problem you mentioned) - Check my web site I have details on how I put > together the cable system. I have the 37-pin 'D' connector mounted on a > card backplate in an empty PCI slot. If you don't have a suitable > backplate, you can make one from a DB-25 backplate with a bit of patience > and a nibbling tool. Heh. > > What are you using for networking under dos? Best I've been able to do > > is to load a packet driver (3c509) and then an ftp program, but that at > > least lets me move stuff around. DOS networking stuff is a mess, > > Getting full networking running with TCP/IP is daunting, but it can be > done. I generally use a simpler route - I use the network client from > Windows for Workgroups - which can be distilled down to 12 files (counting > the NDIS driver for your network card) in a single directory, accessing my > win2k server via NETBEUI. This is *VERY* easy to get working, I can send > you the info. Sure. I think I have WFWG around here someplace on floppies. > Anyhow - what compromises you are willing to make with your machines is > your own business ... right now ImageDisk (and Teledisk) are only available > for DOS and close compatibiles, so if you want to make or create images, > it might be worthwhile finding a way to at least temporarily run it. Got one box still running dos, and that's the former BBS machine, which is currently shut off. And it's the only one here currently with a 5.25" drive in it, too. I need to do something about that autoexec.bat going into desqview and firing up the bbs software, though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Jan 11 22:05:46 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 23:05:46 -0500 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <200601111854030211.01C47459@10.0.0.252> References: <200601111707.15744.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200601112113.02351.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200601111854030211.01C47459@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601112305.46912.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 11 January 2006 09:54 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/11/2006 at 9:13 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >around or not, not without looking. The trouble with that IBM card, and > >some of the other 8-bit cards, is that the board projects down into the > >area next to the edge connector and it won't plug into an ISA slot, so > >I'd have to use something a bit older, with an 8-bit slot and no parts in > >the way. > > It does? This is the original IBM card with an 8272 on top and three IBM > hybrid circuits (U19 U20 and U21) near the front (PC front) bottom--and > simply labeled "DISKETTE"? Mine doesn't project downward at all--I can fit > it into a 16-bit ISA slot just fine. I could be mistaken, I haven't looked at a bunch of that stuff for a long time. I do know that some of those "PC" cards had that problem, but could be wrong about which ones... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From news at computercollector.com Wed Jan 11 22:24:13 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 23:24:13 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <002301c6172b$af297480$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <002501c61730$0c1416b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Well, I did some more sleuthing, and finally found this buttmunch's profile. It included his Yahoo IM name so I promptly IM'd him. Turns out he is the site admin and, in fact, he sees no problem with publishing other people's hard work whatsoever. His defense: "I do it all the time, relax dude." That, of course, just ticked me off even more. He also went out of his way to assert that "ur a prick" for questioning his ethics. Oh, and his next defense was that he's older than me and worth millions, so clearly that means he knows more about the world. And in closing, he suggests that maybe he'll take it down, maybe he won't; that I shouldn't bother him because he's tired; and that if I want to maybe I should sue him. ETHICS. Not a new philosophy. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 10:53 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists Someone copied almost my ENTIRE pda history site onto the web forum at http://tinyurl.com/bhvpv ... Does anyone know what the deal is with this "britishinformation.com" site anyway? The thief who stole my work even included the hyperlinks but they don't work. The site includes a web form for contacting them so I sent a not-so-nice message, but I'm not optimistic about hearing back. Unfortunately I don't see any way to contact the user who posted this. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From news at computercollector.com Wed Jan 11 22:32:17 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 23:32:17 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists -- one last update In-Reply-To: <002501c61730$0c1416b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <002701c61731$2c2c87b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Okay, last update, I promise! I found this gem from the mysterious Stussy's web site: "The Stussy Corporation has filed suit in a California federal court against the Freshjive company, claiming that Freshjive infringed one of their trademarked logos." http://www.britishinformation.com/forums/post-7915.html#7915 So add "hypocrite" to the list... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 11:24 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists Well, I did some more sleuthing, and finally found this buttmunch's profile. It included his Yahoo IM name so I promptly IM'd him. Turns out he is the site admin and, in fact, he sees no problem with publishing other people's hard work whatsoever. His defense: "I do it all the time, relax dude." That, of course, just ticked me off even more. He also went out of his way to assert that "ur a prick" for questioning his ethics. Oh, and his next defense was that he's older than me and worth millions, so clearly that means he knows more about the world. And in closing, he suggests that maybe he'll take it down, maybe he won't; that I shouldn't bother him because he's tired; and that if I want to maybe I should sue him. ETHICS. Not a new philosophy. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 10:53 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists Someone copied almost my ENTIRE pda history site onto the web forum at http://tinyurl.com/bhvpv ... Does anyone know what the deal is with this "britishinformation.com" site anyway? The thief who stole my work even included the hyperlinks but they don't work. The site includes a web form for contacting them so I sent a not-so-nice message, but I'm not optimistic about hearing back. Unfortunately I don't see any way to contact the user who posted this. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 11 22:53:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 20:53:07 -0800 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <002501c61730$0c1416b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <002501c61730$0c1416b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <200601112053070479.02317782@10.0.0.252> Stem Distribution Ltd 64 Queens Road, Beckenham, London, Kent BR3 4JL GB Domain Name: BRITISHINFORMATION.COM Administrative Contact: Sarah Meheux domainadmin at britishinformation.com Stem Distribution Ltd 64 Queens Road Beckenham, Kent BR3 4JL GB Phone: 44 208 249 2690 Fax: 44 208 249 2690 Technical Contact: Sarah Meheux domainadmin at britishinformation.com Stem Distribution Ltd 64 Queens Road Beckenham, Kent BR3 4JL GB Phone: 44 208 249 2690 Fax: 44 208 249 2690 Billing Contact: Anthony Meheux tony at britishinformation.com Stem Distribution Ltd 64 Queens Road, Beckenham, Kent BR3 4JL GB Phone: +44 2082492690 Fax: +44 208249690 http://www.internet-marketing-companies.co.uk/ http://www.first-page-listings.co.uk/chatroom/printthread.php?t=1682 So, now you know where he lives and what he looks like. Cheers, Chuck From news at computercollector.com Wed Jan 11 22:58:44 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 23:58:44 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <200601112053070479.02317782@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <002b01c61734$de2a2500$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> LOL, thanks. Anyone in Britain want to go kick this guy's ass for me? There's a free pint in it for you! ;) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 11:53 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists Stem Distribution Ltd 64 Queens Road, Beckenham, London, Kent BR3 4JL GB Domain Name: BRITISHINFORMATION.COM Administrative Contact: Sarah Meheux domainadmin at britishinformation.com Stem Distribution Ltd 64 Queens Road Beckenham, Kent BR3 4JL GB Phone: 44 208 249 2690 Fax: 44 208 249 2690 Technical Contact: Sarah Meheux domainadmin at britishinformation.com Stem Distribution Ltd 64 Queens Road Beckenham, Kent BR3 4JL GB Phone: 44 208 249 2690 Fax: 44 208 249 2690 Billing Contact: Anthony Meheux tony at britishinformation.com Stem Distribution Ltd 64 Queens Road, Beckenham, Kent BR3 4JL GB Phone: +44 2082492690 Fax: +44 208249690 http://www.internet-marketing-companies.co.uk/ http://www.first-page-listings.co.uk/chatroom/printthread.php?t=1682 So, now you know where he lives and what he looks like. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 12 00:33:15 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:33:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <200601111606.LAA21290@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from der Mouse at "Jan 11, 6 11:00:30 am" Message-ID: <200601120633.WAA15786@floodgap.com> > > [...], but Classic is better than emulation because of its > > integration with the OS. > > Um, Classic *is* emulation. I know that -- perhaps my choice of terms was poor. I should have said, "emulation in a window." -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you want divine justice, die. -- Nick Seldon ---------------------------- From brian at quarterbyte.com Thu Jan 12 00:49:25 2006 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:49:25 -0800 Subject: IBM DASD and Unit Record equipment on eBay Message-ID: <43C58B75.22593.1DF77167@localhost> Norm and I are looking at getting the CPU. We got a virtually identical setup of all the other stuff this spring, but with a 4331 CPU. The 4381 is a lot better. If anyone else is hot to get the CPU let me know so we don't get into a tussle over it :) Brian From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu Jan 12 02:28:10 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:28:10 +0100 Subject: RT11 boot block 0 words ? Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2602@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Thanks Jerome for this information. I did know what the WRITE PROT button does :-), but the fact that you can run RT-11 with that button ON was new to me, as long as you don't need to write to the pack, of course. Very handy if you make any copy from the system disk to an other disk. An error in the entry line (DL0 <-> DL1: swapped) will not be harmful to the system disk with the WRITE PROT button ON. I used your tip yesterday! I did notice however, that I became a little less "on guard", because I was thinking "I'am safe" :-) BTW, as you can guess, my problems with the RL drives that would not boot are solved. The drive(s), cables and the pack are all fine, the RL11 controller developed a fault. I have tagged the board with a label that describes the symptoms and put it aside ... for days when I have more time to do some fault finding on the board; when I'm retired :-). - Henk, PA8PDP. > Jerome Fine replies: > > Tony is correct. The boot block does start with 240 for the > RL02. If you know the approximate version of RT-11 and the > flavour of the monitor (RT11FB, RT11XM, etc.), most of the > rest of the boot block at block zero can be described. Of > course, if you did that, you also would have read the RL02 pack! > > One method of making sure that the RL02 pack is not changed > is to WRITE PROTECT the pack so that it can't be changed - > PERIOD! While some operating systems can't run, RT-11 is > PERFECTLY happy using this method of making sure that the > system disk (or any other for that matter) is not altered. > Of course, you also can't save any new files. BUT, you can > turn off the WRITE PROTECT at any time and save one file at a > time when you actually have something to save. NOTE that > RT-11 must also write first to the directory, so if you use > this method, best to use VM: and copy the file in one > operation using PIP after the file is complete. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Thu Jan 12 05:09:45 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:09:45 +0100 Subject: Apollo DN10000 (was: Available for pickup. ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1137064185.5176.27.camel@fortran.babel> On Wed, 2006-01-04 at 21:55 -0700, Richard wrote: > Speaking of pre-HP Apollo, does anyone on this list have an Apollo > DN10000? I have access to two or three of them. I believe there are others.... -toresbe :) From jba at sdf.lonestar.org Thu Jan 12 06:46:09 2006 From: jba at sdf.lonestar.org (Jeffrey Armstrong) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:46:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: uIP TCP/IP stack for MSDOS Message-ID: Hey everyone! I finally got around to posting my port of the uIP TCP/IP stack to MSDOS systems with FOSSIL serial drivers. I completed this port a while back for display at VCF Midwest 1.0. I've updated some of the source code to contain the necessary copyrights, and I've made it available on my webpage: http://jba.freeshell.org/uip.html This port of the stack contains only a web server that can be run through a SLIP connection. The software was only tested on a DEC Rainbow 100, but it makes no hardware calls, instead relying on the FOSSIL driver for serial access. It should run on any MSDOS-compatible OS with a FOSSIL driver in place, including some of the more exotic systems. I do plan on updating the port to work with uIP 0.9, the current version of the uIP TCP/IP stack. After the upgrade, it should work with more clients and servers. I hope this is moderately helpful or at least interesting to some! -Jeff Armstrong jba at sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From charlesmorris at direcway.com Thu Jan 12 08:16:59 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (charlesmorris at direcway.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:16:59 -0500 Subject: Looking for rack slides Message-ID: <2c5f8e42c5ea2d.2c5ea2d2c5f8e4@direcway.com> Would anyone have a set of rack slides for the 11/24? The ones for this huge box (BA-11A) appear to have some kind of pivot as well as the usual slide mechanism. thanks Charles From news at computercollector.com Thu Jan 12 08:45:58 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:45:58 -0500 Subject: Recent history: Apple/Sun merger Message-ID: <000501c61786$e6fec2b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> http://www.theregister.com/2006/01/12/sun_apple_snapple/ "Sun Microsystems tried to acquire Apple once and then almost merged with Apple on two other occasions, according to Sun co-founder Bill Joy." ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Thu Jan 12 09:36:42 2006 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:36:42 -0600 Subject: HP Palmtop Webserver Message-ID: Michel Bel, based in the Netherlands and one of a few people offering HP 200LX palmtop parts and repairs, has put his web site onto an HP 200-based server. The 200LX, which first came out in 1994, has an 80186 processor (overclocked to 25mHz) and uses MS-DOS 5. The site has good response speed -- it is interesting what can be done with minimal hardware. The URL is: http://ip545193fb.direct-adsl.nl/ Bob From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Jan 12 11:56:28 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:56:28 -0500 Subject: Looking for rack slides In-Reply-To: Message from charlesmorris@direcway.com of "Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:16:59 EST." <2c5f8e42c5ea2d.2c5ea2d2c5f8e4@direcway.com> Message-ID: <200601121756.k0CHuSgo017475@mwave.heeltoe.com> charlesmorris at direcway.com wrote: >Would anyone have a set of rack slides for the 11/24? The ones for this huge b >ox (BA-11A) appear to have some kind of pivot as well as the usual slide mecha >nism. I'd be curious to hear how you come out on this. I'm in need of some rack slides also, but mostly the interesting bracket which an 11/44 uses to pivot. Near as can tell it's a bracket which mounts onto slide - but where would you find one? I've found solutions for my 11/34 and 11/730 but not the 11/44. -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Jan 12 11:59:53 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:59:53 -0500 Subject: Recent history: Apple/Sun merger In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:45:58 EST." <000501c61786$e6fec2b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <200601121759.k0CHxreG017846@mwave.heeltoe.com> "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" wrote: >http://www.theregister.com/2006/01/12/sun_apple_snapple/ > >"Sun Microsystems tried to acquire Apple once and then almost merged with >Apple on two other occasions, according to Sun co-founder Bill Joy." There were some "mac/os running on sun/os" projects inside apple at one point. At least on paper. I'm not sure if they got very far code wise, however. As I recall (dimly) this was in the 68k mac era. I don't remember exactly when - i just remember it was during the time when I was on a first name basis with all of the TWA Boston<->SF crews :-) -brad From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 12 12:11:29 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:11:29 -0700 Subject: Apollo DN10000 (was: Available for pickup. ) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:09:45 +0100. <1137064185.5176.27.camel@fortran.babel> Message-ID: In article <1137064185.5176.27.camel at fortran.babel>, Tore S Bekkedal writes: > On Wed, 2006-01-04 at 21:55 -0700, Richard wrote: > > Speaking of pre-HP Apollo, does anyone on this list have an Apollo > > DN10000? > I have access to two or three of them. I believe there are others.... I'm interested in the DN1000 because they had a high-performance PHIGS implementation around 1989/1990. This was a time when companies with proprietary graphics APIs (most notably SGI with their GL API) were claiming that a high-performance PHIGS implementation wasn't possible because they didn't like the central structure store (i.e. display lsits). SGI had great engineers, but their sales and marketing force was consistently one of the slimiest kinds of humans I've ever encountered. They would routinely do bait-and-switch type techniques in demonstrations and make all sorts of misleading statements and sometimes outright lies. Its unfortunate that marketplace success leads to sales and marketing arms of companies becoming more often than not arrogant dickheads. At any rate, the DN10000 had a decent PHIGS implementation which I used at the UofU circa 1989/1990. However, it was optional software and didn't ship with the machine by default. My long-term interest in getting one of these is to find a DN10000 with a PHIGS implementation and hopefully docs. SGI machines from the workstation period are relatively easy to collect, but its the more exotic graphics workstations made by competitors that I find more interesting. I know that HP made machines to compete with SGI at this time, but since HP had the habit of giving all their machines completely unrememberable names like the PX400GQ (I'm making that up, but its similar to what they did with their model numers), its hard to know what HP had at this timeframe without being an HP historian. I also know that Sun has a line of 3D graphics accelerators of the period that were built with engineers cribbed from E&S and have some interesting antialiasing features. I think Dave Naigle was one of the principle engineers in the early 90s, don't know if he still works there or not. Then there are more interesting machines like the Ardent/Stellar/ Stardent workstations and the graphics workstations made by Kubota. Anyone have some of these exotica in their collection? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 12 12:02:17 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:02:17 -0700 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 11 Jan 2006 23:58:44 -0500. <002b01c61734$de2a2500$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: In article <002b01c61734$de2a2500$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP>, "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" writes: > LOL, thanks. Anyone in Britain want to go kick this guy's ass for me? > There's a free pint in it for you! ;) Make that two pints... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 12 12:14:25 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:14:25 -0700 Subject: Recent history: Apple/Sun merger In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:45:58 -0500. <000501c61786$e6fec2b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: In article <000501c61786$e6fec2b0$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP>, "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" writes: > http://www.theregister.com/2006/01/12/sun_apple_snapple/ Would you describe McNealy as "charismatic"? He seems like such a bore to me whenever I see video of him talking on anything. There's no doubt that Jobs is charismatic, but standing next to him McNealy looks like a corpse. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 12 11:57:10 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 10:57:10 -0700 Subject: IBM DASD and Unit Record equipment on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 11 Jan 2006 19:15:45 -0500. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > Actually, I do not recall reading that in the auction description. You are > talking about the one the surfaced in Atlanta, correct? Nope, this one is in Portland and is described as everything being in working order -- he even powered everything up and did a final check on it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Jan 12 12:37:04 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 10:37:04 -0800 Subject: Recent history: Apple/Sun merger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601121037.05169.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 12 January 2006 10:14, Richard wrote: > In article <000501c61786$e6fec2b0$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP>, > > "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" writes: > > http://www.theregister.com/2006/01/12/sun_apple_snapple/ > > Would you describe McNealy as "charismatic"? He seems like such a > bore to me whenever I see video of him talking on anything. I've been in number of meetings/sessions with Scott - and he can be as funny, critical and entertaining as a stand-up comedian. But like most, he's not always "on". I've also attended a number of sessions with Jobs - who always appears entertaining and excited. But he and his events are always super "prepared". >From personal and reference experience, they are like night and day. Scott is as personable, critical and funny in person and with his staff as he is in public. Jobs is something else ... how about "perfectionist" ... > There's no doubt that Jobs is charismatic, but standing next to him > McNealy looks like a corpse. Not always... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 12 12:53:32 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:53:32 -0700 Subject: Recent history: Apple/Sun merger In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 12 Jan 2006 10:37:04 -0800. <200601121037.05169.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: In article <200601121037.05169.lbickley at bickleywest.com>, Lyle Bickley writes: > > There's no doubt that Jobs is charismatic, but standing next to him > > McNealy looks like a corpse. > > Not always... Well, I've not met either of them personally, I can only go by what shows up on the news (and I'm talking things like Nightly Business Report where McNealy will Q&A for 10-15 minutes, not just isolated 30 second soundbites). Sometimes my interactions with Sun as a company leave me scratching my head wondering how they stay in business. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jan 12 12:58:31 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:58:31 -0600 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <200601112113.02351.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200601111707.15744.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060111233411.FBJL17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200601112113.02351.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <43C6A6D7.8090602@oldskool.org> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>which allows me to connect anything I want as drive B: via a cable (I have >>details of constructing this cable set on my web site) - Drive B: is not Dave, what's the URL of that again? I love your info but hate your website organization :-) I need to build a cable to use with my d37 floppy controller and Imagedisk. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 12 12:47:56 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:47:56 -0700 Subject: FW: ALERT: Login Request In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:14:34 -0800. <5401BAF09EE73644BCCD8E277113E2C801F8313F@denali.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: Woo hoo! I have an account on Paul Allen's PDP-10 and Toad-1. This is fun1 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jan 12 13:07:45 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:07:45 -0600 Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <20060111222019.718377ad.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200601110127.k0B1RUlc010020@onyx.spiritone.com> <200601110150.RAA12964@floodgap.com> <20060110220142.6c17f4ea.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20060111222019.718377ad.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43C6A901.8010001@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > It's just emulation, but you can't run BasiliskII if you don't > already have a Mac to pull the ROM image off of, so the > price-of-entry for non-pirates is to own a running classic Mac to > pull the ROM image from. Although I have 4 classic macs (original, 512, Classic, Se/30) I need to keep them running because I have software I still like to run that is copy-protected. Makes me wish the Mac platform was more successful so that there were more pirates. I'm serious -- I have these original disks that are nearly unobtanium and I wish I could make a backup copy. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jan 12 13:14:30 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:14:30 -0600 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <002301c6172b$af297480$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <002301c6172b$af297480$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <43C6AA96.7050800@oldskool.org> 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Someone copied almost my ENTIRE pda history site onto the web forum at > http://tinyurl.com/bhvpv ... Does anyone know what the deal is with this > "britishinformation.com" site anyway? The thief who stole my work even > included the hyperlinks but they don't work. The site includes a web form > for contacting them so I sent a not-so-nice message, but I'm not optimistic > about hearing back. Unfortunately I don't see any way to contact the user > who posted this. It is better to just forget about it at this point. Why? Because: 1. There's no question the work is yours 2. He doesn't care, and won't ever care 3. In my experience, people who meet the criteria of #2 are gone in 2 years, so the problem corrects itself. He's not trying to take credit for the work or gain profit from it, so instead of worrying about it for a few days, use that time more productively. Life's too short -- you could get hit by a bus tomorrow :-) Update: It appears he changed the forum posting to something libelous -- not sure that was your original intention. But the copied text is not there. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jan 12 13:16:05 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:16:05 -0600 Subject: Recent history: Apple/Sun merger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C6AAF5.3060809@oldskool.org> Richard wrote: > There's no doubt that Jobs is charismatic, but standing next to him > McNealy looks like a corpse. *Anyone* standing next to Jobs looks like a corpse, so that's not a fair comparison. Remember, no matter how good-looking or educated you are, there's only one Reality Distortion Field(tm). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Jan 12 13:24:32 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:24:32 -0600 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <43C6AA96.7050800@oldskool.org> References: <002301c6172b$af297480$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <43C6AA96.7050800@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43C6ACF0.9050203@mdrconsult.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > >> Someone copied almost my ENTIRE pda history site onto the web forum at >> http://tinyurl.com/bhvpv ... Does anyone know what the deal is with this >> "britishinformation.com" site anyway? The thief who stole my work even >> included the hyperlinks but they don't work. The site includes a web >> form >> for contacting them so I sent a not-so-nice message, but I'm not >> optimistic >> about hearing back. Unfortunately I don't see any way to contact the >> user >> who posted this. > > > It is better to just forget about it at this point. Why? Because: Except that his domain registrar is *very* likely to take action if Evan's site contains copyrighted material and he complains to the registrar directly. Minimal effort, maximal return. > 1. There's no question the work is yours > 2. He doesn't care, and won't ever care > 3. In my experience, people who meet the criteria of #2 are gone in 2 > years, so the problem corrects itself. And here's a perfect chance to participate in his Darwination. Doc From news at computercollector.com Thu Jan 12 14:02:29 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:02:29 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <43C6AA96.7050800@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <002401c617b3$1f33c870$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>> It appears he changed the forum posting to something libelous Oy, just what I need... I'm upping the ante to a keg if someone over there will go kick his ass for me. :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Leonard Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 2:14 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Someone copied almost my ENTIRE pda history site onto the web forum at > http://tinyurl.com/bhvpv ... Does anyone know what the deal is with > this "britishinformation.com" site anyway? The thief who stole my > work even included the hyperlinks but they don't work. The site > includes a web form for contacting them so I sent a not-so-nice > message, but I'm not optimistic about hearing back. Unfortunately I > don't see any way to contact the user who posted this. It is better to just forget about it at this point. Why? Because: 1. There's no question the work is yours 2. He doesn't care, and won't ever care 3. In my experience, people who meet the criteria of #2 are gone in 2 years, so the problem corrects itself. He's not trying to take credit for the work or gain profit from it, so instead of worrying about it for a few days, use that time more productively. Life's too short -- you could get hit by a bus tomorrow :-) Update: It appears he changed the forum posting to something libelous -- not sure that was your original intention. But the copied text is not there. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From charlesmorris at direcway.com Thu Jan 12 14:16:55 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (charlesmorris at direcway.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:16:55 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists Message-ID: <2ce14a12cdfc8e.2cdfc8e2ce14a1@direcway.com> Maybe you need to contact this guy: http://www.othercinema.com/otherzine/otherzine4/auction.html :) -Charles From allain at panix.com Thu Jan 12 14:19:26 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:19:26 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists References: <002401c617b3$1f33c870$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <012e01c617b5$7d22f440$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> >>>>> http://tinyurl.com/bhvpv >>>> It appears he changed the forum posting to something libelous > Oy, just what I need... Did he blitz out your name from the original content or not? That would've been pretty outrageous. Right now your name and your URL are up there for people to see. Hey, Free Publicity, right? John A. From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Jan 12 09:31:38 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (dave04a at dunfield.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:31:38 +0000 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <43C6A6D7.8090602@oldskool.org> References: <200601112113.02351.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200601122037.k0CKbouJ024662@mail1.magma.ca> > >>which allows me to connect anything I want as drive B: via a cable (I have > >>details of constructing this cable set on my web site) - Drive B: is not > > Dave, what's the URL of that again? I love your info but hate your > website organization :-) I need to build a cable to use with my d37 > floppy controller and Imagedisk. Go to my "museum" website - If you can't remember the URL, just go to my commecial site (www.dunfield.com) and click on the "old computer guy" at the bottom (this is how I usually get to it) Then find the "disks/software images" link near the bottom. Once to get to the images page, there is an obvious link to the information on connecting an 8" drive, which includes info on how I made the internal and external cabling. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. From allain at panix.com Thu Jan 12 14:38:48 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:38:48 -0500 Subject: SCSI adaptors References: <002401c617b3$1f33c870$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <014301c617b8$31841980$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> I'm having fun playing with (currently) low-cost SlimSCSI cards in laptops and it's going well. I've made some outrageous kludges PCM card -> HD50 dongle -> HD50 ribbon -> adaptor -> IDC50 ribbon -> drive kinda things. They worked but I'd really prefer something like PCM card -> HD50 dongle -> adaptor -> DB25 IDC50, HD50, HD68, Untra4 device... Anybody have a supplier to reccomend? From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 15:12:10 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:12:10 -0500 Subject: SCSI adaptors In-Reply-To: <014301c617b8$31841980$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <002401c617b3$1f33c870$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <014301c617b8$31841980$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: I have a bunch of cables that convert those back and forth. You may have them for shipping cost. vax, 9000 On 1/12/06, John Allain wrote: > I'm having fun playing with (currently) low-cost > SlimSCSI cards in laptops and it's going well. > > I've made some outrageous kludges > PCM card -> HD50 dongle -> HD50 ribbon -> adaptor -> IDC50 ribbon -> drive > kinda things. > > They worked but I'd really prefer something like > PCM card -> HD50 dongle -> adaptor -> > DB25 > IDC50, > HD50, > HD68, > Untra4 device... > > Anybody have a supplier to reccomend? > > > From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 12 15:16:32 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:16:32 -0600 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <200601122037.k0CKbouJ024662@mail1.magma.ca> References: <200601112113.02351.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200601122037.k0CKbouJ024662@mail1.magma.ca> Message-ID: <43C6C730.3070801@pacbell.net> Dave, is the clock set right on your computer? At first I thought your messages were suffering terrible lag, but then you replied to some other post and your timestamp was hours before the one you were replying to. For instance, your most recent one is stamped as 9:31AM (not sure who's time zone). Perhaps your time is right but your timezone is funny. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Jan 12 15:27:47 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:27:47 GMT Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <012e01c617b5$7d22f440$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <002401c617b3$1f33c870$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <012e01c617b5$7d22f440$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: In message <012e01c617b5$7d22f440$5f25fea9 at ibm23xhr06> "John Allain" wrote: > Hey, Free Publicity, right? Um, there is such a thing as bad publicity... -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Space reserved for deserving tagline. ... Drop your carrier ... we have you surrounded! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 12 15:29:07 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:29:07 -0700 Subject: Pertec interface Message-ID: OK, so I found the Pertec stuff on bitsavers, but I haven't read through their docs yet. I purchased a Fujitsu 2444 tape drive that has a Pertec interface. ($0.99 on ebay with local pickup!) Apparently all the newer tape drives have Pertec + SCSI or just SCSI. Is Pertec similar enough to SCSI that I could rig up a dongle? If not, how hard is it to find a Pertec interface for: - VAXserver 4000 - PDP-11 Q-bus - Sun 3 w/expansion chassis - PCI/ISA So that I could get the drive into a usable state? I found a place that had Pertec interfaces for ISA based systems, but it would not work with Windows 2000 or later OS, the cards were out of stock and were pretty pricey (like $500+). So what would y'all recommend as the easiest/cheapest way to get this baby up and running? Also -- the power cord has a non-standard 3-prong plug. I'll try to get photos of this up somewhere for reference, but perhaps someone knows the kind of cord this thing needs so I can know what to look for? Fujitsu M244X Streaming Tape Drive Customer Engineering Manual Pertec -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From news at computercollector.com Thu Jan 12 15:36:09 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:36:09 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <012e01c617b5$7d22f440$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <003501c617c0$344b5630$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I got an email from the dude this morning and he's threatening to sue ME ... I wonder if the ass-kicker from the previous message will travel to Europe. :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Allain Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 3:19 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists >>>>> http://tinyurl.com/bhvpv >>>> It appears he changed the forum posting to something libelous > Oy, just what I need... Did he blitz out your name from the original content or not? That would've been pretty outrageous. Right now your name and your URL are up there for people to see. Hey, Free Publicity, right? John A. From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jan 12 15:44:31 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:44:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM DASD and Unit Record equipment on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Nope, this one is in Portland and is described as everything being in > working order -- he even powered everything up and did a final check > on it. I am talking about the 4381 that sold for a buck about eight months ago. I am pretty sure it was in Atlanta. Was that the one mmissing the power unit? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Jan 12 15:47:13 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:47:13 -0800 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C6CE61.1090205@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: >OK, so I found the Pertec stuff on bitsavers, but I haven't read >through their docs yet. > >I purchased a Fujitsu 2444 tape drive that has a Pertec interface. >($0.99 on ebay with local pickup!) Apparently all the newer tape >drives have Pertec + SCSI or just SCSI. > >Is Pertec similar enough to SCSI that I could rig up a dongle? > >If not, how hard is it to find a Pertec interface for: > > - VAXserver 4000 > - PDP-11 Q-bus > - Sun 3 w/expansion chassis > - PCI/ISA > >So that I could get the drive into a usable state? > > The Pertec interface is an interface which exports control of the tape drive to a controller, and leaves much of the formatting up to the controller which is attached. There is no intelligence assumed on the part of the tape drive, and it performs only motion control, and read and write functions. Detection of file marks, and creation of file marks is assisted in the hardware design but little else. SCSI, on the other hand is a general interface which assumes minimal intelligence and capability, and therefore cost on the computer (initiator end usually) and puts the load on the peripheral to do most of the work. It is an interface which is generalized to allow the same interface bus to handle tape, disk and all manner of devices if need be. There are scsi to pertec interfaces, but were rare, and therefore probably if you found one, would also come with someone wanting to sell the tape drive it is attached to. There are PDP-11 pertec controllers. Same with Sun3 multibus - VME. I had a fujitsu 2444 which came from a sun 3/280, and it had a multibus in the sun VME adapter frame. PCI/ISA includes Overland Data if you can find the controller. I had trouble running the 2444 on the Overland TXI, so be warned on that. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 12 15:53:21 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:53:21 -0800 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601121353210979.05D782E6@10.0.0.252> I've got one of these drives--good heavy iron. Mine was free and NOS (from Intel) in original factory packaging. It was labeled "bad" because the factory had shipped it jumpered for 240v with a 120vac line cord. A jumper change later, I was up and running. Pertec isn't even remotely close to SCSI; your best bet is to find an interface card. Personally, I'd love to find a reasonably-priced protocol converter (Pertec to SCSI). Can't help on the power cord--mine had one already. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 12 16:13:12 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:13:12 -0700 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:53:21 -0800. <200601121353210979.05D782E6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200601121353210979.05D782E6 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Pertec isn't even remotely close to SCSI; your best bet is to find an > interface card. > > Personally, I'd love to find a reasonably-priced protocol converter (Pertec > to SCSI). I wonder how hard it would be to kludge this up in an FPGA? I saw such Pertec->SCSI dongles for sale, but again they were multiple hundreds of dollars. > Can't help on the power cord--mine had one already. OK, I found a diagram and parts number in the M244X PDF: Most power cords are a rectangle with a triangular hat and this one was a round plug, with what looks like a screw-on ring for strain relief. Is this something fairly standard that I could find? I mean, its just a power cord. I can always strip the standard connector of a standard cord and solder it into the inside of the unit, but it would be nice to have a cord that just plugged into it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 12 16:15:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:15:43 -0700 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:47:13 -0800. <43C6CE61.1090205@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: In article <43C6CE61.1090205 at msm.umr.edu>, jim stephens writes: > There are scsi to pertec interfaces, but were rare, and therefore > probably if you > found one, would also come with someone wanting to sell the tape drive it is > attached to. > > There are PDP-11 pertec controllers. Same with Sun3 multibus - VME. I > had a fujitsu 2444 which came from a sun 3/280, and it had a multibus in the > sun VME adapter frame. > > PCI/ISA includes Overland Data if you can find the controller. I had > trouble > running the 2444 on the Overland TXI, so be warned on that. So it sounds like the best bet is to try and find a controller for the Sun 3/110 that I have. (Particularly since this is a drive that was sold for Sun systems.) Does anyone have a part/model number for the Sun 3 VME controller? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 12 16:22:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:22:24 -0800 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: <43C6CE61.1090205@msm.umr.edu> References: <43C6CE61.1090205@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200601121422240066.05F217AF@10.0.0.252> On 1/12/2006 at 1:47 PM jim stephens wrote: >PCI/ISA includes Overland Data if you can find the controller. I had >trouble running the 2444 on the Overland TXI, so be warned on that. The M2444AC has a bit more intelligence that you'd otherwise expect. For one, it does a lot of buffering, so the data transfer rate (from first byte to the last) is exactly the same for 1600 as it is for 6250. And that's the maximum 1.1MHz that the Pertec interface is rated for. Many simple ISA interface cards have trouble doing a sustained transfer at this rate. The high-end ones with local buffering should handle things a bit better. When a Pertec-interface drive is reading, there's no handshake for data transfer to the host--the drive simply puts the data on the read lines and pulses a strobe line--you're expected to be there to catch it. Other than the data transfer issues, a Pertec interface is a very simple thing and you could probably work up your own interface without too much difficulty. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jan 12 16:24:11 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:24:11 -0500 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601121724.11561.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 12 January 2006 17:15, Richard wrote: > In article <43C6CE61.1090205 at msm.umr.edu>, > > jim stephens writes: > > There are scsi to pertec interfaces, but were rare, and therefore > > probably if you > > found one, would also come with someone wanting to sell the tape > > drive it is attached to. > > > > There are PDP-11 pertec controllers. Same with Sun3 multibus - > > VME. I had a fujitsu 2444 which came from a sun 3/280, and it had > > a multibus in the sun VME adapter frame. > > > > PCI/ISA includes Overland Data if you can find the controller. I > > had trouble > > running the 2444 on the Overland TXI, so be warned on that. > > So it sounds like the best bet is to try and find a controller for > the Sun 3/110 that I have. (Particularly since this is a drive that > was sold for Sun systems.) Does anyone have a part/model number for > the Sun 3 VME controller? I believe it was the Xylogics 472 (I've got one at home in my 3/180): 501-1155 Xylogics 472 1/2" Tape Controller Assembly, 9U VMEbus 501-1187 - 9U VME Adapter Assembly for Xylogics 472 370-1067 - Xylogics 472 Multibus 1/2" Tape controller The bottom two part numbers are the parts that make up the whole kit (the top line), if I remember correctly. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Jan 12 16:41:17 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:41:17 -0800 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: <200601121724.11561.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200601121724.11561.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <43C6DB0D.6000003@msm.umr.edu> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >On Thursday 12 January 2006 17:15, Richard wrote: > > thanks, pat. Sorry, I sold mine when I downsized from Sun 3. From hachti at hachti.de Thu Jan 12 16:45:53 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 23:45:53 +0100 Subject: HP 1000 interface identification Message-ID: <43C6DC21.1060005@hachti.de> Hi folks, does anybody know anything about this HP1000,21MX etc. card: Part No. 12665-60011, labeled "serial interface" I did not find any suitable information on bitsavers and don't know where to look. If anybody knows that card... Perhaps it is the standard serial interface/tty interface? Please help.... Thanks, Philipp From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Jan 12 16:46:33 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:46:33 -0800 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: <200601121422240066.05F217AF@10.0.0.252> References: <43C6CE61.1090205@msm.umr.edu> <200601121422240066.05F217AF@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43C6DC49.9080206@msm.umr.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 1/12/2006 at 1:47 PM jim stephens wrote: > > > >>PCI/ISA includes Overland Data if you can find the controller. I had >>trouble running the 2444 on the Overland TXI, so be warned on that. >> >> > >The M2444AC has a bit more intelligence that you'd otherwise expect. For >one, it does a lot of buffering, so the data transfer rate (from first byte >to the last) is exactly the same for 1600 as it is for 6250. And that's >the maximum 1.1MHz that the Pertec interface is rated for. Many simple ISA >interface cards have trouble doing a sustained transfer at this rate. The >high-end ones with local buffering should handle things a bit better. > >When a Pertec-interface drive is reading, there's no handshake for data >transfer to the host--the drive simply puts the data on the read lines and >pulses a strobe line--you're expected to be there to catch it. Other than >the data transfer issues, a Pertec interface is a very simple thing and you >could probably work up your own interface without too much difficulty. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > > > All of the Overland controllers had a good news / bad news way of handling the transfer rate. They had memory buffers on the board. The only one that did not have direct access was the PC-50, which would not work that well for anything but older 800 bpi drives. The problem that I saw was on a PCI board, which had on board buffers, and a microprocessor that Overland included to assist in processing. It was not used for the software i had, nor do I know what software used it (TXI). I believe that the data was buffered into a dual port memory before reading it out. I'll have to check the specs to see what it was rated for. The problem I had was that most times there was no reaction from the drive after the first record was transfered. There seemed to be motion from the BOT over the first record, then nothing. I don't recall the signals to name what was missing, but there appeared to be a lack of reaction by the drive after the first record completed. I did not have any luck figuring it out as I didn't have that detailed a manual for the drive at the time to use to troubleshoot. Jim From david_comley at yahoo.com Thu Jan 12 16:54:40 2006 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:54:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fujitsu 2444 data rate setting (was Re: Pertec interface) In-Reply-To: <200601121422240066.05F217AF@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060112225440.10343.qmail@web30615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I remember reading somewhere that this data rate was configurable by poking the right combination of buttons on the front panel of the 2444. I've been have problems with VMS backups hanging part way through, and the drive just stopping in its tracks (no pun intended) It occurred to me it might be related to this data rate setting but I can't find the writeup any more. Does Chuck or anyone happen to know how this is done ? Dave --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > one, it does a lot of buffering, so the data > transfer rate (from first byte > to the last) is exactly the same for 1600 as it is > for 6250. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jan 12 18:28:52 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:28:52 -0600 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <200601122037.k0CKbouJ024662@mail1.magma.ca> References: <200601112113.02351.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200601122037.k0CKbouJ024662@mail1.magma.ca> Message-ID: <43C6F444.6060707@oldskool.org> dave04a at dunfield.com wrote: > Once to get to the images page, there is an obvious link to the > information on connecting an 8" drive, which includes info on how > I made the internal and external cabling. Thank you sir, much appreciated! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 12 18:34:22 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:34:22 -0800 Subject: HP 1000 interface identification References: <43C6DC21.1060005@hachti.de> Message-ID: <43C6F58D.146A7886@cs.ubc.ca> A while ago I found a mention of the 12665 at Jeff Moffat's site. To quote a quote from there: "The kit provides for communications between two computers over long distances in a heavy industrial noise environment." Go to: http://oscar.taurus.com/~jeff/2100/iocards/iocards2.txt and do a text search for 12665. According to the above it's the PCA in interface kit type 12771. (Going up a level in the URL provides an email address to get the manual.) Perhaps (I'm speculating) it's RS-422/3 instead of RS-232. (I've been compiling a list of HP 21 I/O interfaces with cross-refs to web sources. I hope to put it up on the web 'real soon now'.) Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > Hi folks, > > does anybody know anything about this HP1000,21MX etc. card: > > Part No. 12665-60011, labeled "serial interface" > > I did not find any suitable information on bitsavers and don't know > where to look. If anybody knows that card... > Perhaps it is the standard serial interface/tty interface? > Please help.... > > Thanks, > > Philipp From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Jan 12 20:24:20 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 18:24:20 -0800 Subject: KM11 replica Message-ID: <1137119060.8498.31.camel@linux.site> Hi, I just received my production version of the KM11 maintenance boards. Once I build one and test it, boards and kits will be available. Both will include a parts list and assembly instructions (kits will of course include all required parts). The boards have gold edge fingers, solder mask on both sides and a top silk screen. Here's a link to the prototypes: http://www.shiresoft.com/pdp-11/boards/index.html The difference between the prototypes and the production boards is that the prototypes were all gold plated and the production boards just have the edge fingers. The rest of the board is tinned. The bare board is $35 and the full kit is $85. -- TTFN - Guy From cheri-post at web.de Thu Jan 12 23:53:44 2006 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:53:44 +0100 Subject: Pertec interface Message-ID: <1098435416@web.de> > OK, I found a diagram and parts number in the M244X PDF: > > > Most power cords are a rectangle with a triangular hat and this one was > a round plug, with what looks like a screw-on ring for strain relief. > Is this something fairly standard that I could find? > > I mean, its just a power cord. I can always strip the standard > connector of a standard cord and solder it into the inside of the > unit, but it would be nice to have a cord that just plugged into it. Well, my M2444AC came the the same power plug you're describing. These round screwable plugs are definitely not standard ones. When I found out that a connector (without soldered cable) for that plug would cost around 30 EUR (35$), I just changed this special plug into a standard one with a littre bit of soldering. Regards, Pierre ______________________________________________________________________ XXL-Speicher, PC-Virenschutz, Spartarife & mehr: Nur im WEB.DE Club! Jetzt gratis testen! http://freemail.web.de/home/landingpad/?mc=021130 From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Jan 12 18:37:29 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:37:29 -0800 Subject: Fujitsu 2444 data rate setting (was Re: Pertec interface) In-Reply-To: <20060112225440.10343.qmail@web30615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060112225440.10343.qmail@web30615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43C6F649.9080801@msm.umr.edu> David Comley wrote: >I remember reading somewhere that this data rate was >configurable by poking the right combination of >buttons on the front panel of the 2444. I've been have >problems with VMS backups hanging part way through, >and the drive just stopping in its tracks (no pun >intended) It occurred to me it might be related to >this data rate setting but I can't find the writeup >any more. Does Chuck or anyone happen to know how this >is done ? > > > The service manual in Richard's link from Bitsavers has a section which describes a buffer adapter board that is placed between the deck formatter and the host adapter, which contains buffering and rate control It claims to be able to do from 60k / sec up to the 1.2mb / sec. I believe that page 4-52 of the manual, physical page 77 of the document describes the paramter P0 which is the buffer rate select. It refers to "Section 10.7" to see how to set the paramters. Unfortunately, there is only section 1 thru 6, plus appendicies A and B in the manual. I would imagine that to be refering to a user manual. I did not see that yet. However it appears that this may be the paramter you are refering to. I don't recall my tape drive having such a hookup, so that may be why the problems occurred for me. Chuck is probably right about the transfer rate from what he is saying, and that would have been a problem. If the transfer clock was too fast, my host adapter would have not transfered the data, and probably didn't get the transfer performed correctly, so it just hung there. I had suspected the PE burst was the culprit, as it is at the front of any PE or GCR tape (ID burst is what it is also called IIRC). so I thought it may have messed things up. We had had a problem on another deck, a cipher 100x which did strange things between 800bpi (NRZI) and 1600bpi (PE) and the problem turned out to be the burst causing a major malfunction in our somwhat dumb tape controller. Jim manual http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fujitsu/B03P-5325-0100A_244X_Jun87.pdf From bv at norbionics.com Wed Jan 11 05:58:13 2006 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 12:58:13 +0100 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <200601092358380067.332172E2@10.0.0.252> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601100016.ZM11511@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <43C335FF.5090108@internet1.net> <200601092133580390.329D0340@10.0.0.252> <43C35292.8060508@internet1.net> <200601092358380067.332172E2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:58:38 +0100, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/10/2006 at 1:22 AM C Fernandez wrote: > >> \ >> Our local city high school was closed for about 3 days while a Hazmat >> team cleaned up a dropped vile of mercury. >> Some kid found it and brought it to school, then dropped it by accident! > I'm not sure if that >> was a massive over reaction, or not. Is mercury really that much of a > hazzard? > > I don't know--it's not the metallic mercury that's terribly reactive, but > vapors aren't awfully safe. There are safe ways to clean up the metallic > mercury--binding to a more active metal is one. Still, it's worthwhile > considering that calomel (mercurous chloride) was used since the 1600's > as > as a purgative and treatment for yellow fever in humans. Mercuric > chloride > (or corrisive sublimate) was long used as an antiseptic. Before arsenic > was used as a treatment for syphilis, mercury was used. > Back when I studied chemistry, mercury was considered harmful but not very dangerous. Then, new biology research proved it to be one of the most hazardous metals because it takse very small amounts of organic mercury compounds to cause permanent damage. I think much of that resarch started after the Minemoto disaster in Japan. Later research has indicated that most of the bad effects attributed to syphilis 100+ years ago were actually caused by the treatment. The visible lesions improved, but the brain was harmed. The expression "mad as a hatter" comes from the fact that mercury was used by hatters, and they had a tendency to ende up as anything from eccentic or dimwitted to raving lunatics. The human body is able to get rid of a certain amount of organic mercury without lasting damage, but apparently a number of modern pollutants are using the same quota. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ From erik at baigar.de Wed Jan 11 08:48:57 2006 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 15:48:57 +0100 (MET) Subject: Calcomp 1044 plotter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Richard, > Does anyone know any details on this or where a manual can be > downloaded? I was looking for manuals for the 1039 recently and I had to notice, that manuals for these plotters are very rare. In the meantime I managed to get hands on a 1039 manual - but this is very different from the 1044 I think... From pervilc at yahoo.de Wed Jan 11 19:10:22 2006 From: pervilc at yahoo.de (Pervil Celik) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 02:10:22 +0100 (CET) Subject: Casio CFX-40 Message-ID: <20060112011022.3722.qmail@web26607.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hello Scott, do you have a Casio CFX-40 watch for sale? I?ve seen it in the internet that you have one. Thanks --------------------------------- Telefonieren Sie ohne weitere Kosten mit Ihren Freunden von PC zu PC! Jetzt Yahoo! Messenger installieren! From pdp11 at saccade.com Thu Jan 12 12:47:36 2006 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 10:47:36 -0800 Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <200601110012.QAA19776@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20060112093215.02288f38@mail.saccade.com> >I still use a number of 68K apps I picked up for a song because they do the >job, they're fast, and they were cheap. I'm not giving that up so easily. I've had great luck with BasiliskII running on Windows. Even funky older 68K programs work (like my own "Wallpaper for the Mind", that compiles code and jumps to it on the fly). I found BasiliskII a few years ago when I wanted to set up a time-lapse photography station, and use an old Mac as a camera controller. I didn't want to drag the Mac back and forth to work to test the software, so I developed it under BasiliskII running on a Windows laptop. I just set up (and ran!) an appropriate vintage copy of Code Warrior under BasiliskII and tested the camera controller with it, including the serial port access. Later I found I could access my old Mac files by popping a SlimSCSI card into my laptop, and using BasiliskII to access my old Mac SCSI drives (including a Jaz). Need to get something off an old Mac CD-ROM? No problem! It's like having 1992 in a window. What's really funny is how much -faster- the old System 7.5 stuff runs under this emulator on modern 1Ghz hardware. Mac OS boots in a second or so; amazing to watch after all that time a dozen years ago waiting 30-40 seconds on the original Macs. Although it requires a separate "disk" file (unlike Classic on Mac OS, which shares the filesystem), I've found it to be a more complete 68K mac emulator than running "Classic" on Mac OS X. Some links: - Basilisk II homepage: http://basilisk.cebix.net/ - Windows port: (download) http://www.oldos.org/howtos/mac68kemu.php - Windows w/JIT compiler: http://www.gibix.net/projects/basilisk2/ - Nice documetation (shareware): http://os-emulation.net/basiliskii.html Cheers, jp From nsainz at grupogalo.com.mx Thu Jan 12 13:12:05 2006 From: nsainz at grupogalo.com.mx (Nicolas Sainz Mier) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:12:05 -0600 Subject: Looking for an Altos 1000 Message-ID: <00a701c617ac$13646c40$034c1bac@grupogalo.com.mx> We are looking for an Altos 1000 Series Computer with 386 or 486 Processor, and parts too. Nicol?s S?inz Mier Gerente de Sistemas GRUPO GALO Saltillo, Coahuila MEXICO Phone. +52 (844) 438-7225 Fax +52 (844) 412-1595 From nsainz at grupogalo.com.mx Thu Jan 12 13:19:10 2006 From: nsainz at grupogalo.com.mx (Nicolas Sainz Mier) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:19:10 -0600 Subject: Altos 386/1000 - anyone got install media? Message-ID: <00ae01c617ad$10d03760$034c1bac@grupogalo.com.mx> We are looking for Altos 386/1000 and Altos 486/1000 computers. Do you know of anyone who has them? Nicol?s S?inz Phone: +52 (844) 438-7225 Fax: +52 (844) 412-1595 From nsainz at grupogalo.com.mx Thu Jan 12 17:30:18 2006 From: nsainz at grupogalo.com.mx (Nicolas Sainz Mier) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 17:30:18 -0600 Subject: Looking for an Altos 1000 386 or 486 Message-ID: <04a601c617d0$2619cfa0$034c1bac@grupogalo.com.mx> Hi Do you know who has an Altos 1000 386 or 486 for sale? Nicolas Sainz From gilcarrick at comcast.net Thu Jan 12 09:18:19 2006 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 09:18:19 -0600 Subject: Phone system simulator In-Reply-To: <0080dbd34d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <001c01c6178b$6bb9ceb0$0300a8c0@Gils6240> A while back there were some questions about a simulator for a phone network. There is one on eBay: 5850959638 HTH, Gil (offline) A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 13 01:31:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 23:31:19 -0800 Subject: Fujitsu 2444 data rate setting (was Re: Pertec interface) In-Reply-To: <43C6F649.9080801@msm.umr.edu> References: <20060112225440.10343.qmail@web30615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43C6F649.9080801@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200601122331190408.07E8A1D4@10.0.0.252> On 1/12/2006 at 4:37 PM jim stephens wrote: >I believe that page 4-52 of the manual, physical page 77 of the document >describes the paramter P0 which is the buffer rate select. It refers to >"Section 10.7" to see how to set the paramters. Unfortunately, there is >only section 1 thru 6, plus appendicies A and B in the manual. I would >imagine that to be refering to a user manual. I did not see that yet. Hmmm, take a look at: http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/Systems/Sun3/TAPE_10_Fujitsu-M2444AC.ht ml And scroll down to the section titled " IFC NVRAM Configuration Procedures". Might the right-hand column of settings from P0-P7 have something to do with this? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 13 01:48:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 23:48:57 -0800 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601100016.ZM11511@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <43C335FF.5090108@internet1.net> <200601092133580390.329D0340@10.0.0.252> <43C35292.8060508@internet1.net> <200601092358380067.332172E2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601122348570570.07F8C73C@10.0.0.252> On 1/11/2006 at 12:58 PM Bj??rn Vermo wrote: >Back when I studied chemistry, mercury was considered harmful but not very >dangerous. Then, new biology research proved it to be one of the most >hazardous metals because it takse very small amounts of organic mercury >compounds to cause permanent damage. I think much of that resarch started >after the Minemoto disaster in Japan. Organic mercury I could believe. There was a story awhile back about a Dartmouth chemistry professor who managed to spill a few drops of dimethyl mercury on her latex gloves with tragic results: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Wetterhahn I think you mean "Minamata Bay Disease" which was a tragic episode that involved methylmercury in fish eaten by residents. There was also an Iraq episode back in the 1970's that involved grain treated with methyl mercury as a fungicide. >From everything I've read, inorganic mercury as well as the elemental metal are far less dangerous. Cheers, Chuck From elf at ucsd.edu Fri Jan 13 01:53:58 2006 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric F.) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 23:53:58 -0800 Subject: Hard drive carriers Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060112234539.03e399d0@popmail.ucsd.edu> Hello all, Regarding the recent talk about using hard drive carriers (in order to reduce the number of machines in your environment, etc.), has me wanting to invest in a few. Is there a specific brand anyone uses? I have one drive carrier I purchased years ago (at a local mom & pop computer store for something like $15) -- a cheap, no-name brand (can't even find a brand name on it). The drive connector in the tray is flimsy, it is a pain in the a** to get the drive in and out of the tray, and it just generally doesn't give me a real cozy feeling of sturdiness when using it. So I ask, are there specific brands of these carriers people use? Where do y'all purchase them? Regards, -Eric From fernande at internet1.net Fri Jan 13 02:01:58 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 03:01:58 -0500 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <200601122348570570.07F8C73C@10.0.0.252> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601100016.ZM11511@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <43C335FF.5090108@internet1.net> <200601092133580390.329D0340@10.0.0.252> <43C35292.8060508@internet1.net> <200601092358380067.332172E2@10.0.0.252> <200601122348570570.07F8C73C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43C75E76.7080208@internet1.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>From everything I've read, inorganic mercury as well as the elemental > metal are far less dangerous. > > Cheers, > Chuck I guess I don't understand. I thought mercury was mercury. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Fri Jan 13 03:15:23 2006 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:15:23 +0000 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: References: <002401c617b3$1f33c870$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <012e01c617b5$7d22f440$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060113084738.032e9850@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> At 21:27 12/01/2006, you wrote: >In message <012e01c617b5$7d22f440$5f25fea9 at ibm23xhr06> > "John Allain" wrote: > > > Hey, Free Publicity, right? > >Um, there is such a thing as bad publicity... It's often said, there is no such thing as Bad Publicity. Of course, you have to take advantage of it ... Back in the mid to late 80's, I ran a national on-line moderated chat room, called "Free Speech", on the British Telecom "Prestel" viewdata system. I think, at the time, it was the only free chat room available! Since actually buying space for this was expensive, (GBP 500 for 100 off 768-byte pages p.a.) I blagged space from all over! It had started out on the Pan-Am (airline) information pages when I took it over, and after a sojourn all over the system, we ended up using space on the British Rail on-line timetable system!! Bear in mind, this was 20 years ago, very pre-internet, and hardly anybody outside the UK travel industry and a few computer geeks had heard of Prestel, never mind knew you could actually do anything useful on it. Anyway, at some point I let through a message asking for adult contacts, which while fairly inoffensive by todays standards, somebody took umbrage, despite me censoring it, removing contact details, and commenting "no more of these" on the bottom, and it ended up being shown on TV, on a prime-time, London BBC1 chat show "look what I found while looking up my train times", complete with computer and dial-up connection on-camera. B.R. promptly pulled the plug on my space, and totally missed the opportunity to utilise that publicity of their timetable service which virtually nobody had heard of before and didn't know existed, and which was surely costing them a lot of money (because it used a direct link to their own systems, rather than being static pages, and that cost an awful lot more to set up..) You couldn't buy that sort of exposure at any price, (no ads on the BBC). Ah well. I still have all the messages archived, on dozens of floppies, even a few tapes. Some day I will sort them out and re-publish.. Rob "The Mad Sysop" From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Jan 13 03:21:15 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:21:15 +0100 Subject: looking for RX01 device IOTs for the PDP8/e Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2607@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi all, I finished the tests of the DOS for the CoreSYS 6809 with the 2793 FDC extension board, and I figured that it would be nice if I can add that floppy disk drive to the pdp8/e simulator that runs on the 6809! See www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/floppy/diskstartpage.html (at the end). I will of course not be needing 'my' DOS (except the read/write sector routines) as OS/8 will handle the file system for me. However, I need the description of the (pdp8) IOTs for the RX01 device to implement the floppy disk in the simulation. I have not been able to find that on the web, so I don't even know how difficult implementing those IOTs will be. For example, the real disk sector size is just 128 bytes, which would mean (in pdp8 emulation) that the 'virtual' sector size is 64 words. It is likely that I need some disk access translation to read/write data, but the IOT descriptions will (hopefully) make that clear. Can anybody point me to where I can get the pdp8 RX01 IOT descriptions? thanks, - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 03:25:40 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:25:40 +0000 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.0.20060113084738.032e9850@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> References: <002401c617b3$1f33c870$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <012e01c617b5$7d22f440$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <7.0.0.16.0.20060113084738.032e9850@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <26c11a640601130125k2eeb44d1m@mail.gmail.com> It appears that it has gone now (or moved). Dan From vrs at msn.com Fri Jan 13 03:40:19 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 01:40:19 -0800 Subject: looking for RX01 device IOTs for the PDP8/e References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2607@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: From: "Gooijen, Henk" > Can anybody point me to where I can get the pdp8 RX01 IOT descriptions? Here's a place that I have used http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/man/rx01.html It is easier (and harder) than you expect because the interface is to the bit-slice micro-controller in the drive, rather than to the bare drive electronics. Vince From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jan 12 22:49:31 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 22:49:31 -0600 Subject: Fw: vax equipment for sale (and HP) Message-ID: <013c01c617fc$be22b1a0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Contact original author, not me.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Myers" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 9:01 AM Subject: vax equipment for sale I am writing you to see if yourself or someone you might know in the hobby world of vax might have a need for some surpluse equipment I have. Here is the list DEC Server 5000 with 4 FR-DECBA-CA 4.3 gig drives Dual Processor Card with two mem chips in each DEC AlphaServer 1000 4/266 with 1 RZ-r240-va 9.1g drive, 1 rz-28m-va 2.1g drive 1rz29b-va 4.3g drive and 10 mem slots filled DEC prioris ZX 5166mp/2 with 3 RZ28D-VW 2.0g drives Dual Processor board, 10 mem slots filled DEC Prioris HX 6000 with 3 FR-PCWVR-AZ 4g drives and 2 FR-PCWVR-AY 2g drives, dual processors and 4 mem slots filled All the above servers have SCSI Arrey cards, CD-Rom, Floppy and Dat drives HP 9000 800/H60 back of unit says upgraded to A2986A G60 in nice rack with two C3032R Drive Inclosures (2) 802.3 Lan Cards (1) Mux Card (2) HP-PB 16bit Diffrential SCSI Cards (4) Harddrives in Main Unit (3) drives each in the C3032R Inclosures (6) 32meg Mem Chips Installed Misc: (2) DEC Vaxstations 3100 M48 3 drives and max memory (i think) (1) DEC Vaxstation 3100 M38 3 Drives and Max memory (no Keyboard or monitors for above) TZ867 DLT Drive HP 20XT Optical Disk library Compaq DLT Library unit Rack mount P/N C5173L Series 4120 From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Jan 13 03:55:20 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:55:20 +0100 Subject: looking for RX01 device IOTs for the PDP8/e Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2608@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Great! Thanks Vince. IIRC, I have also gotten the IOTs for the RF08 from Dough's site, (and the 'tricky' ones like GTF and RTF), but somehow I did not see this RX01 page! I have printed those pages already to study them! - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of vrs > Sent: vrijdag 13 januari 2006 10:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: looking for RX01 device IOTs for the PDP8/e > > From: "Gooijen, Henk" > > Can anybody point me to where I can get the pdp8 RX01 IOT > descriptions? > > Here's a place that I have used > > http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/man/rx01.html > > It is easier (and harder) than you expect because the > interface is to the bit-slice micro-controller in the drive, > rather than to the bare drive electronics. > > Vince This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 12 09:27:29 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:27:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <20060112025247.JJPU15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jan 11, 6 10:39:49 pm Message-ID: > > > Heh. There are three monitors on my desk, four machines above it on the > > "second level" I built when things started getting tight, and a > > (seldom-used) monitor sitting on top of those, > > I think I already mentioned "KVM". Yes, but this is classiccmp :-). Exactly none of the 180+ machines I have here would work with a normal KVM switch (most don't have PC-like keyboard interfaces, none have VGA-type monitors). A KVM swtich will not help when the monintors taking up you desk belong to things like classic-PERQs. Or, indeed, when the monitor is built into the machine > > I have somewhere around here the original IBM card that has the DB37 on the > > back of it, > > If you are not doing any HD or 8", this might work (except for the physical > problem you mentioned) - Check my web site I have details on how I put Certainly for the normal 5.25" data rates, that card is strictly DD only (it won't do single density). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 12 09:29:51 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:29:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <200601111854030211.01C47459@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 11, 6 06:54:03 pm Message-ID: > It does? This is the original IBM card with an 8272 on top and three IBM > hybrid circuits (U19 U20 and U21) near the front (PC front) bottom--and > simply labeled "DISKETTE"? Mine doesn't project downward at all--I can fit > it into a 16-bit ISA slot just fine. I am going to have to dig one of mine out now. I thought it was all standard DIL packages, no ASIC or bybrids. Yes, there's an 8272 on it. And a 34 pin card edge at the front. The card that is well-known for not fitting in a 16 bit slot is the CGA card. I think that's why the original PC/AT motherboard has 2 8 bit slots on it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 12 10:15:32 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 16:15:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 1000 interface identification In-Reply-To: <43C6DC21.1060005@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Jan 12, 6 11:45:53 pm Message-ID: > > Hi folks, > > does anybody know anything about this HP1000,21MX etc. card: > > Part No. 12665-60011, labeled "serial interface" > > I did not find any suitable information on bitsavers and don't know > where to look. If anybody knows that card... I've not looked there, but have you tried http://www.hpmuseum.net/ ? That site has a lot of scanned manuals for desktop and larger classic HP computers, peripherals, etc. -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jan 13 04:06:38 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 11:06:38 +0100 Subject: Apollo DN10000 (was: Available for pickup. ) In-Reply-To: References: <1137064185.5176.27.camel@fortran.babel> Message-ID: <20060113110638.285c3d61.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:11:29 -0700 Richard wrote: > Anyone have some of these exotica in their collection? Not one of the exotica you mentioned, but I have an Intergraph 2020... BTW: I don't have keyboard, mouse nor the strange video cable for that machine. If someone in Germany wants that box drop me a mail. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jan 13 04:35:03 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 11:35:03 +0100 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060113113503.3dcb125e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:29:07 -0700 Richard wrote: > If not, how hard is it to find a Pertec interface for: > > - VAXserver 4000 > - PDP-11 Q-bus Usually somthing like an Emulex or Dilog QBus to Pertec controller isn't that hard to find. Have a look at the pdp11-field-guide.txt -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Jan 13 04:39:15 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 11:39:15 +0100 Subject: KM11 replica Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2609@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hello Guy, can you tell what type of switches those 4 are (2- or 3-position, or momentary spring-loaded)? And which types the 6 ICs are? - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy Sotomayor > Sent: vrijdag 13 januari 2006 3:24 > To: PDP11 list > Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: KM11 replica > > Hi, > > I just received my production version of the KM11 maintenance boards. > Once I build one and test it, boards and kits will be available. > Both will include a parts list and assembly instructions (kits will > of course include all required parts). The boards have gold edge > fingers, solder mask on both sides and a top silk screen. > Here's a link to the prototypes: > http://www.shiresoft.com/pdp-11/boards/index.html > The difference between the prototypes and the production boards is > that the prototypes were all gold plated and the production boards > just have the edge fingers. The rest of the board is tinned. > > The bare board is $35 and the full kit is $85. > -- > TTFN - Guy This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jan 12 22:46:27 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 22:46:27 -0600 Subject: Yes, I'm alive. Message-ID: <012401c617fc$507ffb80$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Just wanted to poke my head out and say "yes, I'm still alive". Wife had last (hopefully) surgery thursday and came home sunday. Now I'm a full time care-giver for the next couple months (much like the previous couple months). Once this has passed, I'll be back here regularly. My apologies to all for many unanswered emails, due to all the above something had to give for a while and it was classiccmp. If someone needs me, best to email me directly for a while. Don't get too off-topic-happy, moderators are watching ;) I have had many people wanting to give away gear, I will post those to the list momentarily. Today I was given the following by a friend of a friend... he dropped it off and all so I had to make room for it. Three Northstar Horizon systems, complete with wood trim, boxes of Northstar docs & disks. They all appear to be in very good condition. Also got two Hazeltine 1420 terminals with dustcovers in mint condition. Guess some day I get to learn about S-100 stuff and CPM :) Back to your regularly scheduled programming.... Jay West From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Jan 13 01:20:19 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:15:19 -5 Subject: Hard drive carriers In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060112234539.03e399d0@popmail.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <20060113112215.JWEX15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Hello all, > > Regarding the recent talk about using hard drive carriers (in order to > reduce the number of machines in your environment, etc.), has me wanting to > invest in a few. > > Is there a specific brand anyone uses? > > I have one drive carrier I purchased years ago (at a local mom & pop > computer store for something like $15) -- a cheap, no-name brand (can't > even find a brand name on it). The drive connector in the tray is flimsy, > it is a pain in the a** to get the drive in and out of the tray, and it > just generally doesn't give me a real cozy feeling of sturdiness when using it. > > So I ask, are there specific brands of these carriers people use? Where do > y'all purchase them? The ones I use are fairly generic from a company called "SNT". They go in a 5.25" bay, and hold a 3.5" drive. They use a 50-pin Telco connector (Looks like a Centronics parallel connecter but longer) to connect the carrier (data and power) to the bay. I've had a little trouble with the connectors but they work OK if you keep them clean). The carriers themselves are sturdy enough I've probably got about 30 of them, some of which are more than 10 years old and have not had a single one fail (I tried another brand once and the handle broke off in the first week - this one had a removable "panel" in the face which made the structure of the front quite weak). I generally use the ones without a fan (less to fail) - they come with metal covers for the top and bottom which essentially block cooling to the drive - I take these off and toss them so the drive is exposed to cabinet air like a non-carrier installation. I find the drives run noticably cooler if you do this. The drives screw into the carriers, however I have modified three of my carriers by mounting retaining "beams" across the bottom, so that the drive can just sit into the carrier without having to screw it in. (Also reenforced the data & power cables so they won't break after repeated insertion/removal - this lets me have a whole slew of less frequently used drives which I can easily "drop in" to a machine without having to take it apart. The ones I have use a key to insert/remove the drive which is a bit of a pain. You can bypass the power switch and avoid having to use the key, however this forfeits "hot plugging" (which I never do anyway), but the key also slides in a physical retainer which keeps the drive from accidently being removed - so I continue to use the keys (I just have them all over my office and lab). According to the boxes they come in, there is also a version which uses a button to release the drive instead of a key, however I have not found any of these... Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Jan 13 01:20:19 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:15:19 -5 Subject: Hard drive carriers In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060112234539.03e399d0@popmail.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <20060113112244.JWIL15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Hello all, > > Regarding the recent talk about using hard drive carriers (in order to > reduce the number of machines in your environment, etc.), has me wanting to > invest in a few. > > Is there a specific brand anyone uses? > > I have one drive carrier I purchased years ago (at a local mom & pop > computer store for something like $15) -- a cheap, no-name brand (can't > even find a brand name on it). The drive connector in the tray is flimsy, > it is a pain in the a** to get the drive in and out of the tray, and it > just generally doesn't give me a real cozy feeling of sturdiness when using it. > > So I ask, are there specific brands of these carriers people use? Where do > y'all purchase them? The ones I use are fairly generic from a company called "SNT". They go in a 5.25" bay, and hold a 3.5" drive. They use a 50-pin Telco connector (Looks like a Centronics parallel connecter but longer) to connect the carrier (data and power) to the bay. I've had a little trouble with the connectors but they work OK if you keep them clean). The carriers themselves are sturdy enough I've probably got about 30 of them, some of which are more than 10 years old and have not had a single one fail (I tried another brand once and the handle broke off in the first week - this one had a removable "panel" in the face which made the structure of the front quite weak). I generally use the ones without a fan (less to fail) - they come with metal covers for the top and bottom which essentially block cooling to the drive - I take these off and toss them so the drive is exposed to cabinet air like a non-carrier installation. I find the drives run noticably cooler if you do this. The drives screw into the carriers, however I have modified three of my carriers by mounting retaining "beams" across the bottom, so that the drive can just sit into the carrier without having to screw it in. (Also reenforced the data & power cables so they won't break after repeated insertion/removal - this lets me have a whole slew of less frequently used drives which I can easily "drop in" to a machine without having to take it apart. The ones I have use a key to insert/remove the drive which is a bit of a pain. You can bypass the power switch and avoid having to use the key, however this forfeits "hot plugging" (which I never do anyway), but the key also slides in a physical retainer which keeps the drive from accidently being removed - so I continue to use the keys (I just have them all over my office and lab). According to the boxes they come in, there is also a version which uses a button to release the drive instead of a key, however I have not found any of these... Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Jan 13 01:20:19 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:15:19 -5 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: References: <20060112025247.JJPU15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jan 11, 6 10:39:49 pm Message-ID: <20060113112254.JWJP15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > > > Heh. There are three monitors on my desk, four machines above it on the > > > "second level" I built when things started getting tight, and a > > > (seldom-used) monitor sitting on top of those, > > > > I think I already mentioned "KVM". > > Yes, but this is classiccmp :-). Exactly none of the 180+ machines I have > here would work with a normal KVM switch (most don't have PC-like > keyboard interfaces, none have VGA-type monitors). A KVM swtich will not > help when the monintors taking up you desk belong to things like > classic-PERQs. Or, indeed, when the monitor is built into the machine Not sure why this comment came out - the original conversation was specifically about machines capable of running ImageDisk, which would imply PCs. I'm pretty sure the machines and monitors to which I made this comment were PCs (at least this was implied in the thread). Besides Tony, I wouldn't expect you to buy an off the shelf KVM .. but couldn't you build one that could translate between proprietary keyboard interfaces if you wanted one? -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jan 12 22:48:36 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 22:48:36 -0600 Subject: pdp gear available Message-ID: <013001c617fc$9d7e10c0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Contact original author, not me.... ------------- PDP-11/23 and 73 (some) VT-220 (some) VT-240 (lots) LA-12D (lots) Looking for a new home. All items in very good conditions. Svein-Erik Olsen solsen at mil.no From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Jan 13 06:28:11 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:28:11 -0500 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <20060113112254.JWJP15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060112025247.JJPU15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060113112254.JWJP15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20060113072811.2eda83ed.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:15:19 -5 "Dave Dunfield" wrote: > > > > Heh. There are three monitors on my desk, four machines above it on the > > > > "second level" I built when things started getting tight, and a > > > > (seldom-used) monitor sitting on top of those, > > > > > > I think I already mentioned "KVM". > > > > Yes, but this is classiccmp :-). Exactly none of the 180+ machines I have > > here would work with a normal KVM switch (most don't have PC-like > > keyboard interfaces, none have VGA-type monitors). A KVM swtich will not > > help when the monintors taking up you desk belong to things like > > classic-PERQs. Or, indeed, when the monitor is built into the machine > > Not sure why this comment came out - the original conversation was specifically > about machines capable of running ImageDisk, which would imply PCs. I'm > pretty sure the machines and monitors to which I made this comment were PCs > (at least this was implied in the thread). > Indeed, this whole thread was about using a modern (semi-modern) PC as a piece of test equipment/lab equipment. As a tool, not a preserved piece of a collection. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Jan 13 06:37:04 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:37:04 -0500 Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20060112093215.02288f38@mail.saccade.com> References: <200601110012.QAA19776@floodgap.com> <5.1.1.5.2.20060112093215.02288f38@mail.saccade.com> Message-ID: <20060113073704.48c0bd54.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 10:47:36 -0800 "J. Peterson" wrote: > > >I still use a number of 68K apps I picked up for a song because they do the > >job, they're fast, and they were cheap. I'm not giving that up so easily. > > I've had great luck with BasiliskII running on Windows. Even funky older > 68K programs work (like my own "Wallpaper for the Mind", that compiles code > and jumps to it on the fly). > > I found BasiliskII a few years ago when I wanted to set up a time-lapse > photography station, and use an old Mac as a camera controller. I didn't > want to drag the Mac back and forth to work to test the software, so I > developed it under BasiliskII running on a Windows laptop. > > I just set up (and ran!) an appropriate vintage copy of Code Warrior under > BasiliskII and tested the camera controller with it, including the serial > port access. Later I found I could access my old Mac files by popping a > SlimSCSI card into my laptop, and using BasiliskII to access my old Mac > SCSI drives (including a Jaz). Need to get something off an old Mac > CD-ROM? No problem! It's like having 1992 in a window. > > What's really funny is how much -faster- the old System 7.5 stuff runs > under this emulator on modern 1Ghz hardware. Mac OS boots in a second or > so; amazing to watch after all that time a dozen years ago waiting 30-40 > seconds on the original Macs. > > Although it requires a separate "disk" file (unlike Classic on Mac OS, > which shares the filesystem), I've found it to be a more complete 68K mac > emulator than running "Classic" on Mac OS X. > I've been having loads of fun with BasiliskII over the past several days. It allows me to try all kinds of Mac stuff off the actual Mac, which actually preserves the Mac hardware. Each hard drive image file that you create can be it's own 'Mac' environment, and you can duplicate an image before trying anything risky in a particular environment. Next, I need to add a SCSI interface to this machine so I can easily transport these 'environments' over to a portable Mac hard drive and thence to the Macs themselves. The drive image files themselves can be 'frozen' and stored on CDR or DVD+R media. It all nicely complements everything else that I've done recently to preserve MacOS operating environments. I will note that BasiliskII is a SERIOUS resource hog. I left it run yesterday while I was at work and when I got home the Unix 'top' utility indicated it had consumed 19 HOURS of WCPU time! It ties up 40-80% while running, which is unheard of for most Unix user code. > Some links: > > - Basilisk II homepage: http://basilisk.cebix.net/ > - Windows port: (download) http://www.oldos.org/howtos/mac68kemu.php > - Windows w/JIT compiler: http://www.gibix.net/projects/basilisk2/ > - Nice documetation (shareware): http://os-emulation.net/basiliskii.html > > Cheers, > jp > From fm.arnold at gmx.net Fri Jan 13 07:37:31 2006 From: fm.arnold at gmx.net (Frank Arnold) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:37:31 +0100 Subject: KM11 replica In-Reply-To: <1137119060.8498.31.camel@linux.site> References: <1137119060.8498.31.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: Guy Sotomayor schreef op 12.01.2006: >Hi, > >I just received my production version of the KM11 maintenance boards. >Both will include a parts list and assembly instructions > What about the trasparent overlays that give the leds their function? Does the board offer provisions to attach those? What devices used this KM11? I am aware of 11/05,10,35 and 40 and the RK05. Any other devices? Could you publish the parts-list already now? Then I can see what components I may have available already. Does the design use any hard to get components? > >The bare board is $35 and the full kit is $85. > That makes me interested... Frank From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 07:38:48 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:38:48 -0500 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <43C75E76.7080208@internet1.net> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601100016.ZM11511@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <43C335FF.5090108@internet1.net> <200601092133580390.329D0340@10.0.0.252> <43C35292.8060508@internet1.net> <200601092358380067.332172E2@10.0.0.252> <200601122348570570.07F8C73C@10.0.0.252> <43C75E76.7080208@internet1.net> Message-ID: <43C7AD68.5020907@gmail.com> C Fernandez wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>> From everything I've read, inorganic mercury as well as the elemental >> >> metal are far less dangerous. >> Cheers, >> Chuck > > I guess I don't understand. I thought mercury was mercury. Chemically, a metal behaves very differently when in a compound. Sodium metal has a tendency to react violently with water. A chunk will fizz violently. Ground sodium in cold water will explode, due to the higher surface area. However, if you compound it with chlorine, you get ordinary table salt, necessary for life. Peace... Sridhar From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jan 13 08:09:26 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:09:26 -0500 Subject: hp 6286a supply Message-ID: <200601131409.k0DE9Qb6031819@mwave.heeltoe.com> Hi I've got an old HP 6286a bench supply. It's been sitting for a while and I turned it on and discovered it seems to have no voltage regulation - it gives out about 23VDC not matter what. The current regulation seems to work however. Anyone ever look inside of one of these? It looks like a nice supply and I hate to toss it. -brad From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jan 12 22:51:10 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 22:51:10 -0600 Subject: Fw: Some old PDP-11 Message-ID: <014301c617fc$f95e1d90$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Contact original author, not me.... Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brandy" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 2:31 PM Subject: Some old PDP-11 > Hi, > > I have some old PDP-11 stuff that is finally time to for me to get rid of. > > A short list: > > * Micro PDP-11/23 cpu board > * Micro PDP-11/70 cpu board > * 1 Mega-byte memory board > * H-19 terminal > * Wyse 75 terminal > * LA-xx dot matrix printer > * Diablo xx daisy wheel printer > * RL xx disk emulator > * Chassis with two 10 megabyte hard disks > * RT11 and TSX11 software > * Dual 8" floppy drive. > * Q-Bus backplane in chassis. > > There is more lot's book's manual's etc. Condition of all equipmet is > unknown as none has been powered up in many years. > > Is any one interested? > > Dennis Brandenburg > California, zip code 94043 > > > From news at computercollector.com Fri Jan 13 08:32:17 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:32:17 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <26c11a640601130125k2eeb44d1m@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000401c6184e$27d95cb0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Thanks for the tip. It's now reduced to just "This guy is a liar." Oh well. At least that part's sometimes true. ;) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Williams Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 4:26 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists It appears that it has gone now (or moved). Dan From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jan 13 09:01:34 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:01:34 -0500 Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac References: <5.1.1.5.2.20060112093215.02288f38@mail.saccade.com> Message-ID: <000e01c61852$3f2a4ec0$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Peterson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 1:47 PM Subject: Re: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac > What's really funny is how much -faster- the old System 7.5 stuff runs > under this emulator on modern 1Ghz hardware. Mac OS boots in a second or > so; amazing to watch after all that time a dozen years ago waiting 30-40 > seconds on the original Macs. > 68K Mac machines take forever to boot because they test memory , and do it slowly. The machines I have with 128MB of RAM or higher take quite a while before they initialize video and start loading the OS (which is fast since I use newer HD's and faster NUBUS scsi cards. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 12 17:50:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:50:14 -0800 Subject: Pertec interface In-Reply-To: <43C6DC49.9080206@msm.umr.edu> References: <43C6CE61.1090205@msm.umr.edu> <200601121422240066.05F217AF@10.0.0.252> <43C6DC49.9080206@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200601121550140468.064282FB@10.0.0.252> On 1/12/2006 at 2:46 PM jim stephens wrote: >I don't recall the signals to name what was missing, but there appeared >to be a lack of reaction by the drive after the first record completed. >I did not have any luck figuring it out as I didn't have >that detailed a manual for the drive at the time to use to troubleshoot. Well, if the drive is behaving correctly, a 1 usec pulse on IGO (J1, pin 8) when IRDY (J2, pin 28) is asserted and IDBY (J2, pin 38) is un-asserted should begin a read operation. A logic analyzer would tell the whole story. Cheers, Chuck From fernande at internet1.net Fri Jan 13 11:01:54 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:01:54 -0500 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <43C7AD68.5020907@gmail.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601100016.ZM11511@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <43C335FF.5090108@internet1.net> <200601092133580390.329D0340@10.0.0.252> <43C35292.8060508@internet1.net> <200601092358380067.332172E2@10.0.0.252> <200601122348570570.07F8C73C@10.0.0.252> <43C75E76.7080208@internet1.net> <43C7AD68.5020907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <43C7DD02.20905@internet1.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> I guess I don't understand. I thought mercury was mercury. > > > Chemically, a metal behaves very differently when in a compound. Sodium > metal has a tendency to react violently with water. A chunk will fizz > violently. Ground sodium in cold water will explode, due to the higher > surface area. However, if you compound it with chlorine, you get > ordinary table salt, necessary for life. > > Peace... Sridhar Ok, I get it. I was thinking of it as a pure substance, rather than in a compound. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Jan 13 11:04:26 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:04:26 -0800 Subject: KM11 replica In-Reply-To: References: <1137119060.8498.31.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <1137171866.8498.53.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-01-13 at 14:37 +0100, Frank Arnold wrote: > Guy Sotomayor schreef op 12.01.2006: > >Hi, > > > >I just received my production version of the KM11 maintenance boards. > >Both will include a parts list and assembly instructions > > > > What about the trasparent overlays that give the leds their function? > Does the board offer provisions to attach those? Yes, what I had intended (and never got around to) was to have a piece of clear plexiglass that was fastened at the top of the board with two stand offs (I put holes there for this reason) and the threaded barrels of the switches would serve to secure the bottom end of the plexiglass. The overlays could then be made of mylar (or other suitable film) on which the overlay could be printed and attached to the plexiglass. > > What devices used this KM11? I am aware of 11/05,10,35 and 40 and the RK05. > Any other devices? You forgot the 11/20, 11/45 (and it's ilk) and the 11/70. There are a few other devices that use it as well, I just don't remember them all at the moment. > > Could you publish the parts-list already now? I'm working on that now. I'll include the exact parts list in a day or so, but this gives you the gist of it: * 2 0.01 disk caps * 1 330uf electrolytic * 4 ULN2308A transitor driver array * 1 SN7400N * 1 SN7406N * 28 330ohm 1/4 watt resistor * 5 1kohm 1/8 watt resistor * 3 SPDT toggle switches (I'll get the specific p/n as the board is designed for them to "just fit"). * 1 SPDT momentary switch (same family as above) * 28 5mm LEDs > Then I can see what components I may have available already. > Does the design use any hard to get components? The ULN2308A and the switches are the only "interesting" parts. But I've made sure that the parts can be sourced from at least one of the usual places. > > > > >The bare board is $35 and the full kit is $85. > > > > That makes me interested... > > Frank > > -- TTFN - Guy From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 11:18:33 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:18:33 -0500 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <43C7DD02.20905@internet1.net> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601100016.ZM11511@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <43C335FF.5090108@internet1.net> <200601092133580390.329D0340@10.0.0.252> <43C35292.8060508@internet1.net> <200601092358380067.332172E2@10.0.0.252> <200601122348570570.07F8C73C@10.0.0.252> <43C75E76.7080208@internet1.net> <43C7AD68.5020907@gmail.com> <43C7DD02.20905@internet1.net> Message-ID: <43C7E0E9.4060509@gmail.com> C Fernandez wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >>> I guess I don't understand. I thought mercury was mercury. >> >> >> >> Chemically, a metal behaves very differently when in a compound. >> Sodium metal has a tendency to react violently with water. A chunk >> will fizz violently. Ground sodium in cold water will explode, due to >> the higher surface area. However, if you compound it with chlorine, >> you get ordinary table salt, necessary for life. > > Ok, I get it. I was thinking of it as a pure substance, rather than in > a compound. Yeah. I believe that the point was that many organomercuric compounds are significantly more toxic than metallic mercury alone. The canonical example is usually dimethylmercury. It killed a well known chemistry professor in 1997 when she spilled just two drops on her latex glove. Metallic mercury isn't *nearly that toxic*. Peace... Sridhar From lcourtney at mvista.com Fri Jan 13 11:23:45 2006 From: lcourtney at mvista.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:23:45 -0800 Subject: vax equipment for sale (and HP) In-Reply-To: <013c01c617fc$be22b1a0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Message-ID: <005701c61866$1b765af0$c20a000a@mvista.com> Per Mike Meyers located just north of Cincinnati, Ohio Again contact him not me... Lee Courtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2006 8:50 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Fw: vax equipment for sale (and HP) > > Contact original author, not me.... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Myers" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 9:01 AM > Subject: vax equipment for sale > > > I am writing you to see if yourself or someone you might know in the > hobby world of vax might have a need for some surpluse > equipment I have. > > Here is the list > > > DEC Server 5000 with 4 FR-DECBA-CA 4.3 gig drives Dual Processor Card > with two mem chips in each > DEC AlphaServer 1000 4/266 with 1 RZ-r240-va 9.1g drive, 1 rz-28m-va > 2.1g drive 1rz29b-va 4.3g drive and 10 mem slots filled > DEC prioris ZX 5166mp/2 with 3 RZ28D-VW 2.0g drives Dual Processor > board, 10 mem slots filled > DEC Prioris HX 6000 with 3 FR-PCWVR-AZ 4g drives and 2 FR-PCWVR-AY 2g > drives, dual processors and 4 mem slots filled > > All the above servers have SCSI Arrey cards, CD-Rom, Floppy and Dat > drives > > HP 9000 800/H60 back of unit says upgraded to A2986A G60 in nice rack > > with two C3032R Drive Inclosures > (2) 802.3 Lan Cards > (1) Mux Card > (2) HP-PB 16bit Diffrential SCSI Cards > (4) Harddrives in Main Unit > (3) drives each in the C3032R Inclosures > (6) 32meg Mem Chips Installed > > > > Misc: > (2) DEC Vaxstations 3100 M48 3 drives and max memory (i think) > (1) DEC Vaxstation 3100 M38 3 Drives and Max memory > (no Keyboard or monitors for above) > > TZ867 DLT Drive > HP 20XT Optical Disk library > Compaq DLT Library unit Rack mount P/N C5173L Series 4120 > > > From fernande at internet1.net Fri Jan 13 11:35:30 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:35:30 -0500 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <43C7E0E9.4060509@gmail.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601100016.ZM11511@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <43C335FF.5090108@internet1.net> <200601092133580390.329D0340@10.0.0.252> <43C35292.8060508@internet1.net> <200601092358380067.332172E2@10.0.0.252> <200601122348570570.07F8C73C@10.0.0.252> <43C75E76.7080208@internet1.net> <43C7AD68.5020907@gmail.com> <43C7DD02.20905@internet1.net> <43C7E0E9.4060509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <43C7E4E2.6020908@internet1.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Yeah. I believe that the point was that many organomercuric compounds > are significantly more toxic than metallic mercury alone. The canonical > example is usually dimethylmercury. It killed a well known chemistry > professor in 1997 when she spilled just two drops on her latex glove. > Metallic mercury isn't *nearly that toxic*. > > Peace... Sridhar Yup, read about that just last night. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jan 13 11:55:10 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:55:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher Message-ID: <200601131755.JAA06292@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "C Fernandez" > >Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Yeah. I believe that the point was that many organomercuric compounds >> are significantly more toxic than metallic mercury alone. The canonical >> example is usually dimethylmercury. It killed a well known chemistry >> professor in 1997 when she spilled just two drops on her latex glove. >> Metallic mercury isn't *nearly that toxic*. >> >> Peace... Sridhar > >Yup, read about that just last night. > >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA Hi Botulism toxin has nothing in it that isn't already in our bodies but a tiny fraction of a drop would kill hundreds. I used to play with balls of metalic mercury on my bare hands ( it hasn't effected me much other than the urge to collect old computers ). Like most things, it isn't the parts that kill you it is the hold thing. Dwight From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Jan 13 12:03:46 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:03:46 +0000 Subject: Altos 386/1000 - anyone got install media? In-Reply-To: <00ae01c617ad$10d03760$034c1bac@grupogalo.com.mx> References: <00ae01c617ad$10d03760$034c1bac@grupogalo.com.mx> Message-ID: <43C7EB82.8030505@gjcp.net> Nicolas Sainz Mier wrote: > We are looking for Altos 386/1000 and Altos 486/1000 computers. > Do you know of anyone who has them? I think that's what I have. If you find install media, please let me know... Gordon. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 13 12:19:00 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:19:00 -0600 Subject: Suns available Madison, WI; SCSI 9-track wanted Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060113121437.04c4f730@mail> I have a lead on a Sun 3/50 workstation, dead Sun monitor, non-Sun working monitor, 2 SCSI boxes, keyboard, mouse, cables, etc., probably still working. And a Sun 3/260 floor model with monitor, 2'x2'x6' 9-track tape drive (Pertec interface), keyboard, mouse. They're located in Madison, WI. Free for the hauling. Due to size and weight, I may need to pass on these. If you're interested, I can point you to the owners. I'm also hunting for a table-top 9-track reader, SCSI. I need to read a dozen or two tapes and move the data to conventional media. - John From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 13 12:58:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:58:52 -0800 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <43C7AD68.5020907@gmail.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601100016.ZM11511@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <43C335FF.5090108@internet1.net> <200601092133580390.329D0340@10.0.0.252> <43C35292.8060508@internet1.net> <200601092358380067.332172E2@10.0.0.252> <200601122348570570.07F8C73C@10.0.0.252> <43C75E76.7080208@internet1.net> <43C7AD68.5020907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200601131058520166.0A5E1E8B@10.0.0.252> On 1/13/2006 at 8:38 AM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Chemically, a metal behaves very differently when in a compound. Sodium >metal has a tendency to react violently with water. A chunk will fizz >violently. Ground sodium in cold water will explode, due to the higher >surface area. However, if you compound it with chlorine, you get >ordinary table salt, necessary for life. The problem with many of our hazmat regulations--particularly when it comes to heavy metals, is that they rarely take into account the form the metal is in. For example, if you have amalgam fillings in your teeth, you have mercury that's been placed in your body (silver amalgam is a solution of silver in mercury). In this form, the mercury's not particularly reactive with the substances inside your mouth and the danger is minimal. Yet the amount of mercury in one filling, combined with two other harmless elements (hydrogen and carbon) to make dimethyl mercury, is sufficient o kill you and a couple of your friends. Add a little sulfur and some sodium, rejuggle the molecular structure and you've got thimerisal, a preservative used in vaccines and injected right into your bloodstream. The EU RoHS has me in a tizzy because the regulations are beginning to mandate that lead be removed from solders used to assemble brass musical instruments. Well, the substitutes don't flow as nicely and it's much harder to make a strong joint. I've seen instruments that have come from the top German manufacturers that have cold solder joints. But a musical instrument has a very long life (50 years and longer isn't unusual); the solder is well contained and doesn't leach from the joints during use, so where is the harm? We're not talking about mobile phones with an average life of less than a year here. My oldest (and still-played) tuba dates from 1895. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 13:05:27 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:05:27 -0500 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <200601131058520166.0A5E1E8B@10.0.0.252> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601100016.ZM11511@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <43C335FF.5090108@internet1.net> <200601092133580390.329D0340@10.0.0.252> <43C35292.8060508@internet1.net> <200601092358380067.332172E2@10.0.0.252> <200601122348570570.07F8C73C@10.0.0.252> <43C75E76.7080208@internet1.net> <43C7AD68.5020907@gmail.com> <200601131058520166.0A5E1E8B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43C7F9F7.8040607@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The EU RoHS has me in a tizzy because the regulations are beginning to > mandate that lead be removed from solders used to assemble brass musical > instruments. Well, the substitutes don't flow as nicely and it's much > harder to make a strong joint. I've seen instruments that have come from > the top German manufacturers that have cold solder joints. But a musical > instrument has a very long life (50 years and longer isn't unusual); the > solder is well contained and doesn't leach from the joints during use, so > where is the harm? We're not talking about mobile phones with an average > life of less than a year here. My oldest (and still-played) tuba dates > from 1895. Bismuth-tin solder with high-temperature soldering gear works well enough, doesn't it? Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 13 13:17:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 11:17:16 -0800 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <43C7F9F7.8040607@gmail.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5B64@sbs.jdfogg.com> <10601100016.ZM11511@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> <43C335FF.5090108@internet1.net> <200601092133580390.329D0340@10.0.0.252> <43C35292.8060508@internet1.net> <200601092358380067.332172E2@10.0.0.252> <200601122348570570.07F8C73C@10.0.0.252> <43C75E76.7080208@internet1.net> <43C7AD68.5020907@gmail.com> <200601131058520166.0A5E1E8B@10.0.0.252> <43C7F9F7.8040607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200601131117160344.0A6EF7B2@10.0.0.252> On 1/13/2006 at 2:05 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Bismuth-tin solder with high-temperature soldering gear works well >enough, doesn't it? Not really--"high temperature" is relative in this case. I use an acetylene-air torch for soft-soldering; many use oxyacetylene (you're dealing with a big hunk of metal and local heating is more improtant that getting the entire part hot). The problem is that joints are of the plumbing sort--you depend on capillary action to form the joint and fill any small gaps. Eutectic Sn/Pb is ideal. The substitutes, including some rather expensive indium alloys that I've tried, just don't flow the same way. I don't know of any plumber who perfers lead-free solder to the leaded kind. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 13 13:20:45 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:20:45 -0700 Subject: Apollo DN10000 (was: Available for pickup. ) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 13 Jan 2006 11:06:38 +0100. <20060113110638.285c3d61.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In article <20060113110638.285c3d61.jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Jochen Kunz writes: > On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 11:11:29 -0700 > Richard wrote: > > > Anyone have some of these exotica in their collection? > Not one of the exotica you mentioned, but I have an Intergraph 2020... Ah yes, Intergraph, another workstation company that's now turned to making Wintel type PCs as "workstations". > BTW: I don't have keyboard, mouse nor the strange video cable for that > machine. If someone in Germany wants that box drop me a mail. I'm assuming its ridiculously heavy :-), like 45 kg? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 13 13:21:27 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 11:21:27 -0800 Subject: Hard drive carriers In-Reply-To: <20060113112215.JWEX15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060113112215.JWEX15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200601131121270308.0A72CC03@10.0.0.252> On 1/13/2006 at 7:15 AM Dave Dunfield wrote: >> Is there a specific brand anyone uses? I've got a bunch that I'm not able to use any more, both in IDE and in SCSI-1 configurations. The problem is that ultra-IDE (80 conductor) cables don't work with these things, which means that if I use one, I take a performance hit. I've got a bunch (probably 10) that I'll sell for a buck the each + shipping. Buyer takes the lot--I don't want to spend my Saturday making up individual packages. Cheers, Chuck From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Jan 13 13:28:06 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 11:28:06 -0800 Subject: Non-random numbers (SIMH PDP-8)? In-Reply-To: <43C58078.7040509@pacbell.net> References: <29d0ba629cf28d.29cf28d29d0ba6@direcway.com> <43C58078.7040509@pacbell.net> Message-ID: Yeah, results are one of those things I've been meaning to add for about 6 years..... (A database to hold them, PHP to display them, forms for submission.) I'd like to do various benchmarks (Ahl, Sieve, SETI at home, stream_d to measure memory bandwidth, disk_io speed, etc) for a large variety of machines from the earliest computers to the present in interpreted, compiled and assembly languages. In my copious spare time, of course. Next time I go observing and am waiting on exposures to complete I'll try to put some time into developing it. > I see the page -- but where the results? That is the most interesting part. > Measuring the dc bias of the random generator this way (with only 1000 samples) > is pretty meaningless. Blame David Ahl. :) Thanks for the results, though! Always happy to see them. Eric From technobug at comcast.net Fri Jan 13 14:04:30 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:04:30 -0700 Subject: hp 6286a supply In-Reply-To: <200601131800.k0DI06Vb013227@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601131800.k0DI06Vb013227@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:09:26 -0500, Brad Parker wrote: > Hi > > I've got an old HP 6286a bench supply. It's been sitting for a while > and I turned it on and discovered it seems to have no voltage > regulation > - it gives out about 23VDC not matter what. The current regulation > seems to work however. > Does the voltage drop down from 23VDC when you limit current? Shorting the output and playing with the current control will indicate that the current limit is working and that the output transistors are okay. A better test is to place a low-valued resistor across the output and limit current while measuring the voltage across the resistor. This will tell you that the output stage is working. > Anyone ever look inside of one of these? It looks like a nice supply > and I hate to toss it. > > -brad The 6286a is a 20V, 10A supply with voltage and current controls. Great for reforming caps and testing old hardware. I would make an effort to resurrect the beast. I have found in a number of supplies the front panel adjustable pots open up or the wiper go south. This will make the output go to max. Another problem is small electrolytic caps in the voltage control circuit going bad. Often, blindly shotgunning all the small caps will make things work for another 15 years (sorry Tony...). The Boat Anchor Manual Archive has a copy of the 6285A which should be close to what you have. Good luck. CRC From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 13 14:06:21 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:06:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hard drive carriers In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060112234539.03e399d0@popmail.ucsd.edu> from "Eric F." at Jan 12, 2006 11:53:58 PM Message-ID: <200601132006.k0DK6M00030649@onyx.spiritone.com> > Is there a specific brand anyone uses? I just use whatever the local PC "Chop Shop" has for sale. Luckily I was able to get a nice supply of 50-pin SCSI ones when they were still somewhat common. They're the main thing I use, as I use them on my PDP-11's. These days something to consider is how well they'll allow cooling of the drives, this tends to mean going with a more expensive model. Plus as has been pointed out, if you're using newer EIDE drives (ATA/66 or better) you need the newer trays that support them. I do have a couple PC's that use the EIDE trays, one of which is in storage, the other doesn't really need them as all I've done with it for the past year or so is run Debian a couple times. Zane From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 14:25:16 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:25:16 -0500 Subject: This weekend Message-ID: <43C80CAC.7010709@gmail.com> I'm installing two laminated (doubled-up 2x12") beams and eight jack posts to hold up my dining room floor from underneath. I already installed one beam and four columns in December. Ah, the trials of being a mainframe collector. Peace... Sridhar From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jan 13 14:29:35 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:29:35 -0500 Subject: This weekend References: <43C80CAC.7010709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002f01c61880$11cc9ae0$72781941@game> Time to go rent an abandoned car factory I would think. . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 3:25 PM Subject: This weekend > > I'm installing two laminated (doubled-up 2x12") beams and eight jack > posts to hold up my dining room floor from underneath. I already > installed one beam and four columns in December. Ah, the trials of > being a mainframe collector. > > Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 13 15:02:15 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:02:15 -0700 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:25:16 -0500. <43C80CAC.7010709@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <43C80CAC.7010709 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > I'm installing two laminated (doubled-up 2x12") beams and eight jack > posts to hold up my dining room floor from underneath. I already > installed one beam and four columns in December. Ah, the trials of > being a mainframe collector. What big iron are you collecting? Do you have a bragging rights web site with photos? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jan 13 15:25:32 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:25:32 -0500 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: <43C80CAC.7010709@gmail.com> References: <43C80CAC.7010709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200601131625.32219.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 13 January 2006 15:25, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I'm installing two laminated (doubled-up 2x12") beams and eight jack > posts to hold up my dining room floor from underneath. I already > installed one beam and four columns in December. Ah, the trials of > being a mainframe collector. Perhaps, time to install a concrete floor? All of racks of stuff are sitting on concrete floors in my basement (light things) or garage (hard to move things), soon to be moved to a building with concrete floors and cinderblock walls, which I can condition the air in.. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jan 13 15:28:32 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:28:32 -0500 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: <200601131625.32219.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <43C80CAC.7010709@gmail.com> <200601131625.32219.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200601131628.32836.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 13 January 2006 16:25, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 13 January 2006 15:25, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > I'm installing two laminated (doubled-up 2x12") beams and eight > > jack posts to hold up my dining room floor from underneath. I > > already installed one beam and four columns in December. Ah, the > > trials of being a mainframe collector. > > Perhaps, time to install a concrete floor? All of racks of stuff are > sitting on concrete floors in my basement (light things) or garage > (hard to move things), soon to be moved to a building with concrete > floors and cinderblock walls, which I can condition the air in.. Errr, that's supposed to read "All of *my* racks of stuff. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 13 15:35:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:35:40 -0800 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601131335400758.0AEDAE7D@10.0.0.252> Aren't most residential floors rated at about 50 lbs./sq. ft.? I've seen folks assemble a platform with 2x4s and some heavy plywood to distribute the weight of heavy items over a broad area. What are the joists under your floor like now? I've got 2x12" glue-lam beams under mine and it seems to be pretty sturdy. Cheers, Chuck From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Jan 13 11:40:28 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:35:28 -5 Subject: Hard drive carriers In-Reply-To: <200601131121270308.0A72CC03@10.0.0.252> References: <20060113112215.JWEX15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20060113214225.TLTT15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > On 1/13/2006 at 7:15 AM Dave Dunfield wrote: > > >> Is there a specific brand anyone uses? > > I've got a bunch that I'm not able to use any more, both in IDE and in > SCSI-1 configurations. > > The problem is that ultra-IDE (80 conductor) cables don't work with these > things, which means that if I use one, I take a performance hit. > > I've got a bunch (probably 10) that I'll sell for a buck the each + > shipping. Buyer takes the lot--I don't want to spend my Saturday making up > individual packages. FWIW, the SNT ones are "somewhat compatible" between the old (40 pin cable) and the new ATA-100 carriers. You can put an old carrier into a new socket, and it works as long as the drive is not ATA-100 - if the drive is ATA-100, then the 40-pin cable inside the carrier causes errors, because the system detects an 80-pin cable to the mainboard and tries to use ATA-100. A new carrier always works in an old socket (obviously you don't get ATA-100 in this case). Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 15:50:19 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:50:19 -0500 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: <002f01c61880$11cc9ae0$72781941@game> References: <43C80CAC.7010709@gmail.com> <002f01c61880$11cc9ae0$72781941@game> Message-ID: <43C8209B.9090609@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > Time to go rent an abandoned car factory I would think. This is Poughkeepsie, it would most likely be an abandoned mainframe factory. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 15:55:27 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:55:27 -0500 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: <200601131335400758.0AEDAE7D@10.0.0.252> References: <200601131335400758.0AEDAE7D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43C821CF.7090900@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Aren't most residential floors rated at about 50 lbs./sq. ft.? I've seen > folks assemble a platform with 2x4s and some heavy plywood to distribute > the weight of heavy items over a broad area. What are the joists under > your floor like now? I've got 2x12" glue-lam beams under mine and it seems > to be pretty sturdy. Well, the fact that the house is about eighty years old makes a difference, but the joists are full-cut (!) 2x12". It's pretty strong, but it could use some more rigidity, hence the beams and posts. Peace... Sridhar From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Jan 13 15:53:52 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:53:52 -0500 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: <43C80CAC.7010709@gmail.com> References: <43C80CAC.7010709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200601131653.52638.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 13 January 2006 03:25 pm, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I'm installing two laminated (doubled-up 2x12") beams and eight jack > posts to hold up my dining room floor from underneath. I already > installed one beam and four columns in December. Ah, the trials of > being a mainframe collector. > > Peace... Sridhar I hope you're putting poured concrete footings under those jack posts... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 15:57:29 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:57:29 -0500 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: <200601131625.32219.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <43C80CAC.7010709@gmail.com> <200601131625.32219.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <43C82249.50106@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 13 January 2006 15:25, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >>I'm installing two laminated (doubled-up 2x12") beams and eight jack >>posts to hold up my dining room floor from underneath. I already >>installed one beam and four columns in December. Ah, the trials of >>being a mainframe collector. > > > Perhaps, time to install a concrete floor? All of racks of stuff are > sitting on concrete floors in my basement (light things) or garage > (hard to move things), soon to be moved to a building with concrete > floors and cinderblock walls, which I can condition the air in.. I was planning on building an outbuilding and perhaps getting some industrial space. It's exceedingly cheap around here, but right now my mortgage takes most of my income. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 15:59:24 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:59:24 -0500 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: <200601131653.52638.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <43C80CAC.7010709@gmail.com> <200601131653.52638.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <43C822BC.4000809@gmail.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Friday 13 January 2006 03:25 pm, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >>I'm installing two laminated (doubled-up 2x12") beams and eight jack >>posts to hold up my dining room floor from underneath. I already >>installed one beam and four columns in December. Ah, the trials of >>being a mainframe collector. >> >>Peace... Sridhar > > > I hope you're putting poured concrete footings under those jack posts... :-) I'm putting them on the poured concrete basement floor. Maybe on top of some patio block to spread the weight, but probably not. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 16:01:14 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:01:14 -0500 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C8232A.2060308@gmail.com> Richard wrote: >>I'm installing two laminated (doubled-up 2x12") beams and eight jack >>posts to hold up my dining room floor from underneath. I already >>installed one beam and four columns in December. Ah, the trials of >>being a mainframe collector. > > > What big iron are you collecting? > Do you have a bragging rights web site with photos? :-) I have an S/390 (including terminal controller, DASD, etc.), three big-iron VAXen and a whole load of other hardware in there. One more S/390 will probably arrive later. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 13 16:09:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:09:43 -0800 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: <43C822BC.4000809@gmail.com> References: <43C80CAC.7010709@gmail.com> <200601131653.52638.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43C822BC.4000809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200601131409430025.0B0CD804@10.0.0.252> On 1/13/2006 at 4:59 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >I'm putting them on the poured concrete basement floor. Maybe on top of >some patio block to spread the weight, but probably not. Will that pass inspection? The typical concrete slab is what, 3"-4" thick, tops? You may want to cut through the slab, dig a hole and pour a real footing for the beam. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 13 16:12:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:12:26 -0800 Subject: Hard drive carriers In-Reply-To: <20060113214225.TLTT15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060113112215.JWEX15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060113214225.TLTT15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200601131412260181.0B0F5556@10.0.0.252> On 1/13/2006 at 5:35 PM Dave Dunfield wrote: >then the 40-pin cable inside the carrier causes errors, because the system >detects an 80-pin cable to the mainboard and tries to use ATA-100. > >A new carrier always works in an old socket (obviously you don't get >ATA-100 in this case). Yeah, pretty much my experience. I've even tried tying the ATA-100 detect pin to ground, but then I come up with data errors--the connectors and PCB and associated glarp on the tray probably represent too much of an impedance "bump" for successful ATA-100 transfers. Cheers, Chuck From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jan 13 16:15:29 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:15:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher Message-ID: <200601132215.OAA14566@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 1/13/2006 at 2:05 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >>Bismuth-tin solder with high-temperature soldering gear works well >>enough, doesn't it? > >Not really--"high temperature" is relative in this case. I use an >acetylene-air torch for soft-soldering; many use oxyacetylene (you're >dealing with a big hunk of metal and local heating is more improtant that >getting the entire part hot). The problem is that joints are of the >plumbing sort--you depend on capillary action to form the joint and fill >any small gaps. Eutectic Sn/Pb is ideal. The substitutes, including some >rather expensive indium alloys that I've tried, just don't flow the same >way. > >I don't know of any plumber who perfers lead-free solder to the leaded >kind. Hi For these things, it really depends on the flux used. You need to be using a higher temperature flux. Dwight From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 16:27:08 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:27:08 -0500 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: <200601131409430025.0B0CD804@10.0.0.252> References: <43C80CAC.7010709@gmail.com> <200601131653.52638.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43C822BC.4000809@gmail.com> <200601131409430025.0B0CD804@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43C8293C.5010303@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/13/2006 at 4:59 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > >>I'm putting them on the poured concrete basement floor. Maybe on top of >>some patio block to spread the weight, but probably not. > > > Will that pass inspection? The typical concrete slab is what, 3"-4" thick, > tops? You may want to cut through the slab, dig a hole and pour a real > footing for the beam. That sems like it'll be overkill. I'd have to pour twelve separate footings. Plus the weight will be spread out considerably, since we're talking about twelve columns roughly 36" apart. Hardwood blocks would probably be strong enough. Plus there are structural masonry walls around the perimeter of the room I'm strrengthening. Also, there's this giant masonry column and footing under the heaviest item. (The DASD array.) The jack posts will be nowhere near maximum load. Peace... Sridhar From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Jan 13 16:28:07 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:28:07 -0500 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: <200601131409430025.0B0CD804@10.0.0.252> References: <43C80CAC.7010709@gmail.com> <43C822BC.4000809@gmail.com> <200601131409430025.0B0CD804@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601131728.07467.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 13 January 2006 05:09 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/13/2006 at 4:59 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >I'm putting them on the poured concrete basement floor. Maybe on top of > >some patio block to spread the weight, but probably not. > > Will that pass inspection? The typical concrete slab is what, 3"-4" thick, > tops? You may want to cut through the slab, dig a hole and pour a real > footing for the beam. > > --Chuck That's what I was thinking. Saw it on some tv show once, a 2 foot square hole about 2 feet deep should do the trick... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jan 13 16:52:29 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:52:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: <43C8209B.9090609@gmail.com> Message-ID: > This is Poughkeepsie, it would most likely be an abandoned mainframe > factory. 8-) Some might say 8-(. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jan 13 16:58:25 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:58:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: <200601131409430025.0B0CD804@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > Will that pass inspection? The typical concrete slab is what, 3"-4" thick, > tops? You may want to cut through the slab, dig a hole and pour a real > footing for the beam. Not a bad idea at all. In time the slab will crack, having point loads like columns, and then problems come up that you really do not want to deal with. Digging footings is not all that bad, and well worth it. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Jan 13 17:00:53 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:00:53 -0800 Subject: System 3 Microfiche (maybe) on ePay Message-ID: <43C83125.5000200@msm.umr.edu> I think this listing may be of interest to collectors of old IBM stuff. I don't think the seller has the slightest idea what the fiche document, and they copied the term "System 3" into the listing like they were clueless. Any system 3 people may want to pounce. 7736615631 Jim From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 17:07:34 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:07:34 -0500 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C832B6.5010903@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >>This is Poughkeepsie, it would most likely be an abandoned mainframe >>factory. 8-) > > > Some might say 8-(. I don't believe the vacated buildings are necessarily due to the market dying away. I think it's more because mainframes have gotten physically a lot smaller. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 13 17:46:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:46:57 -0700 Subject: System 3 Microfiche (maybe) on ePay In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:00:53 -0800. <43C83125.5000200@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: "Listed in category: Home & Garden > Outdoor Power Equipment > Other Outdoor Power Equipment" LOL! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From news at computercollector.com Fri Jan 13 17:52:48 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:52:48 -0500 Subject: Quick favor needed -- re: fanfold paper Message-ID: <004901c6189c$753c78e0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I need someone to make a hi-res scan of a single sheet of 8.5x11 fanfold paper with the perforated side holes still attached. I'm making a graphic image for a web page background, but without having a sheet handy, it's hard to gauge the proportions of where the holes should be. Oh, and I need it five minutes ago. :) Thanks! ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From drb at msu.edu Fri Jan 13 18:04:37 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:04:37 -0500 Subject: Looking for DSSI ISE disk Message-ID: <200601140004.k0E04bm6012864@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Question for any Vax wizards hanging about: I just received a VAX 4000/600A in a BA400 rack mount chassis. It contains no disk. I'm having a little trouble sorting out part numbers and abbreviations online, but I think I'm looking for one or two RF72 or RF73 DSSI disks in ISE packages. If I'm barking up the wrong tree, cluestick whacks to tell me why this is a bad idea or impossible to find/maintain, or what I should try instead, would be appreciated. The box does have a KZQSA controller, but I like the neatness of the ISE modules. Thanks, De From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 13 18:45:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:45:40 -0800 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <200601132215.OAA14566@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200601132215.OAA14566@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <200601131645400514.0B9BA057@10.0.0.252> On 1/13/2006 at 2:15 PM Dwight Elvey wrote: >Hi > For these things, it really depends on the flux used. You need >to be using a higher temperature flux. >Dwight I'm using a hydrochloric acid-ammonium fluoride liquid flux, which ought to do, no? Cheers, Chuck From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jan 13 18:58:47 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:58:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher Message-ID: <200601140058.QAA19719@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 1/13/2006 at 2:15 PM Dwight Elvey wrote: > >>Hi >> For these things, it really depends on the flux used. You need >>to be using a higher temperature flux. >>Dwight > >I'm using a hydrochloric acid-ammonium fluoride liquid flux, which ought to >do, no? > >Cheers, >Chuck > Hi Chuck I'm not sure, not being an expert, but your problem sounds like an issue of the flux not holding up to the temperature. You should check with the manufacture of the solder to find what they recommend. Also, sometimes welding supplies will have some info as well. If the flux burns off too soon, it won't do any good. The instant the surface oxides, the solder stops flowing. Dwight From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jan 13 19:04:45 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:04:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: <43C832B6.5010903@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I don't believe the vacated buildings are necessarily due to the market > dying away. I think it's more because mainframes have gotten physically > a lot smaller. Well, the Kingston plant went from making computers to processing income tax. Extremes of fun, to say the least. Anyway, mainframes were so much better when they were BIG. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 19:10:57 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:10:57 -0500 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C84FA1.3070601@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >>I don't believe the vacated buildings are necessarily due to the market >>dying away. I think it's more because mainframes have gotten physically >>a lot smaller. > > Well, the Kingston plant went from making computers to processing income > tax. Extremes of fun, to say the least. The thing I miss from the Kingston plant is the SP line. It's nowhere near as cool in Poughkeepsie. > Anyway, mainframes were so much better when they were BIG. Indeed. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 13 18:53:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 00:53:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: KM11 replica In-Reply-To: <1137119060.8498.31.camel@linux.site> from "Guy Sotomayor" at Jan 12, 6 06:24:20 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > I just received my production version of the KM11 maintenance boards. > Once I build one and test it, boards and kits will be available. Both > will include a parts list and assembly instructions (kits will of course > include all required parts). The boards have gold edge fingers, solder > mask on both sides and a top silk screen. Here's a link to the > prototypes: > http://www.shiresoft.com/pdp-11/boards/index.html I am not sure if I should feel honoured, or if I should moan about plagarism., or neither. You do not mention anywhere on the your site where the electronic design came from, although it is clearly not the DEC one (which used 56 discrete transistors in the lamp driver circuits). So let me guess where it came from.. The first thing that struck me about the PCB was that it has positions for 4 18 pin chips. Now there are not that many common 18 pin chips, the main ones being the 2114 SRAM, some PIC microconterollers, and the ULN2803 (etc) drivers. Only the last would make any sort of sense on this board. And I notice that the components list that this guess is correct. Many years ago I was given a PDP11/45, and while sorting it out I realised how useful it would be to have a KM11 or two. At the time DEC stuff was even harder to find that it is now (there was no E-bay, no world-wide web, etc). Finding a genuine KM11 was out of the question. But I did manage to find the connector board that had come with a DR11-B. This was simply a single-height extended length board with the 36 edge fingers wired to turret lugs. I wired a cable to that, the other end to a DC37 socket. And I made a box that plugged in there with 28 LEds and 4 switches on it that simulated the KM11. Now for something that is too much of a coincidence. I used ULN2803 drivers. I had originally intended to use 7406s, but found the input current was too high to work reliably. DEC, you see, put 1k resistors in series with most of the signals going to the KN11 connector, to prevent the module from loading the signals too much. An even more suprising coincindence is the capacitor I used to smooth the 8V supply. The first one I pulled out of the junk box was 330uF. There was not real need for that value, 470uF would be fine too. It's just what I used. I notice you specidied that value. Some time after I built the thing, I posted details to usenet, and to some other places too. I'll reproduce it again below, for refernce. It is my guess that you have built this board essentially to this design. My problem is that my name does not appear anywhere on your site or on the PCB (AFAIK). I am not sure how much of the design I could claim anyway (it is clearly based on the DEC design, it virtually has to be). And I love these old PDP's, so I am not going to do anything to make it more difficult to people to maintain them, e.g. by moaning seriously about you selling said PCBs. But I am still somewhat unhappy, unless you can show you didn't start from my design. I come from an academic background where it is common courtesy to give credit to others. I also wonder if I should be quite so free with advice and designs in the future. Anyway, here's the original description : How to build a clone of the DEC KM11 maintenance module ------------------------------------------------------- The KM11 is the maintenance module for the PDP11/05,10,40,45 CPUs, RK11-C, RK11-D controllers, RX01 floppy drive, and probably many other devices. It is not commonly available second hand, so if you want one, you will probably have to build it yourself. Here I'll describe how I did just that. Components : 5* 1k Resistor 28 * 330R resistor 28 * red LED 1 * 330uF Capacitor 1 * 7400 1 * 7406 4 * ULN2803 3 * SPDT (single pole change over, form C) toggle switch 1 * SPDT biased toggle switch Prototyping board/PCB (your choice) 1 * DEC M957 cable connector module - this is the single-height connector module that was supplied with the DR11-B parallel port. If you can't get this, you can use anything else that will fit in a single-height slot, and will make a separate connection to each of the 36 pins. Ideas include etching one from PCB, cutting down another DEC board, cutting down an S100 prototype board, etc. 1 * Box (if you decide to make it a separate module linked to the M957 by a cable, as I did. A box with a clear lid avoids having to drill holes for the LEDs) Cable, wire, solder, etc. I'll present this as a set of instructions and part circuit-diagrams. I'll not show the power connections on the IC's - all the pins indicated as ground (pin 7 on the 7400 and 7406, pin 9 on the ULN2803) are linked to ground, Vcc on the TTL chips (pin 14 on the 7400 and 7406) are linked to +5v. The protection pin (pin 10) on the ULN2803 is linked to +8V. I'll also assume you have the pin-outs of the chips, and so I'll not be numbering all the pins Also, note that I use the DEC labeling of pins on the M957 board. Looking into the slot socket, they are layed out as : Solder side Component side A2 A1 B2 B1 C2 C1 D2 D1 E2 E1 F2 F1 H2 H1 J2 J1 K2 K1 L2 L1 M2 M1 N2 N1 P2 P1 R2 R1 S2 S1 T2 T1 U2 U1 V2 V1 Right, down to construction : 1) Power wiring The power voltages are obtained from the slot as follows (B1)-----------+---- +8v | + --- --- 330uF | | --- /// (A2)----------------+5v (C2)--+ | (T1)--+ | --- /// 2) Switches There are 4 switches, all of them slightly different!. I mounted them on the front of the box in which I mounted the prototyping board containing the driver chips an LEDs. S1 was on the left, and S4 (the spring-biased one) was on the right. Wire them up as follows : /o / +-----/ o------(B2) | s1 --- /// +5v --- | / \ 1k / /o \ / | +----/ o----+-----(V2) | s2 --- /// +5v --- | / \ 1k / | '00 +-+------|\ |\ | | )o---+-------| |>o-------(A1) | +--|/ | |/ S3 o | | '06 +\ +-------+ | | \o +---------)-+ | | +----|\ | | | | )o-+ | +--------|/ --- | '00 /// | | / 1k \ +5v / --- | | +-----+ +5v --- | / \ 1k / | '00 +-+------|\ | | )o---+-------(U1) | +--|/ | S4 o | | +\ +-------+ | | \o +---------)-+ | | +----|\ | | | | )o-+ | +--------|/ --- | '00 /// | | / 1k \ +5v / --- | | +-----+ (S4 is spring-biased to the position shown). So, to recap. S1 grounds pin B2. S2 grounds pin V2, which is pulled up by a 1k resistor. S3 is debounced, open-collector buffered, and then drives pin A1. S4 is debounced, and then drives pin J1. All these pins should be high/floating with the switches in the 'off' position. 3) LED's. Mount 28 LED's in a 7 * 4 matrix either on the box lid, or on the circuit board if the lid is transparent. Each LED is driven by one section of a ULN2803 chip - like this : +8v --- | | --- \ / \ RED LED --- \ |\ | V (pin)-----| |>o----/\/\/---+ |/ ULN2803 (1 section of 8). Do not try to replace the ULN2803 device with a TTL driver. DEC put 1k resistors in series with some of the signals, and a TTL buffer will not be driven correctly As I said, the LED's are mounted in a 7 column,4 row matrix. Link the inputs to the driver chips to the pins as shown in the diagram below : K2 J1 P1 R1 S1 N2 R2 N1 C1 L1 K1 M2 D2 E2 V1 T2 F1 S2 F2 H2 H1 P2 U2 D1 M1 E1 J2 L2 Finally : The meanings of the LED's and switches are shown in the DEC maintenance manual or Engineering drawings for the particular device. If you don't know what they are, I may be able to look them up for you. -tony ard at sive.bris.ac.uk ------------------------------------------------------------------ I also wonder if you used ULN2803s becuase you couldn't find ULN2003s in 1-off quantities. That's why I used them :-). The 2003 9s a 7-stage driver (16 pin DIL package) and 4 of them would be ideal for the 28 LEDs -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 13 18:58:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 00:58:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <20060113112254.JWJP15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jan 13, 6 07:15:19 am Message-ID: > > > > > Heh. There are three monitors on my desk, four machines above it on the > > > > "second level" I built when things started getting tight, and a > > > > (seldom-used) monitor sitting on top of those, > > > > > > I think I already mentioned "KVM". > > > > Yes, but this is classiccmp :-). Exactly none of the 180+ machines I have > > here would work with a normal KVM switch (most don't have PC-like > > keyboard interfaces, none have VGA-type monitors). A KVM swtich will not > > help when the monintors taking up you desk belong to things like > > classic-PERQs. Or, indeed, when the monitor is built into the machine > > Not sure why this comment came out - the original conversation was specifically > about machines capable of running ImageDisk, which would imply PCs. I'm Simple : Several of us (including myself) don't have space to set up another machine, like a modern PC. You suggested a KVM switch. As I understand it, this is a device that switches a single keyboard, monitor and mouse between 2 machines. But most, if not all, only work for machines which take PC-like keyboards and VGA monitors (forget about the mouse, OK :-)). Which means it wouldn't svce any space here becuase none of the machines on or around my desk use such peripherals. So a KVM switch couldn't be used to share one of the monitors and keyboards with the new PC that runs imagedisk. > pretty sure the machines and monitors to which I made this comment were PCs > (at least this was implied in the thread). > > Besides Tony, I wouldn't expect you to buy an off the shelf KVM .. but couldn't > you build one that could translate between proprietary keyboard interfaces if > you wanted one? Oh, I probalby could, but I like to use the original keyboards on my classics... Anyewy, if I am going to go to all that work, I might as well design a disk imaging device, which certainly wouldn't use an 8272 controller. If I used a single chip, it would be one of the WD ones (which have a much more useful read track command). Or I might just make something like a Catweasel and grab the transitions on the read data line from the drive an analuse them in software later. -tony From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jan 13 19:37:39 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:37:39 -0800 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: <43C84FA1.3070601@gmail.com> References: <43C84FA1.3070601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200601131737.39603.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 13 January 2006 17:10, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: > >>I don't believe the vacated buildings are necessarily due to the market > >>dying away. I think it's more because mainframes have gotten physically > >>a lot smaller. > > > > Well, the Kingston plant went from making computers to processing income > > tax. Extremes of fun, to say the least. > > The thing I miss from the Kingston plant is the SP line. It's nowhere > near as cool in Poughkeepsie. > > > Anyway, mainframes were so much better when they were BIG. Ah, you guys are bringing up some fond remembrances. I had an office in the 705 Building in Poughkeepsie and an office in the manufacturing plant in Kingston. Date 1963 - when IBM was "finishing off" the 7094 line in Poughkeepsie and the 7044 line in Kingston and replacing them with System/360 lines. When System/360 was launched, I ran a software modeling group - which ran simulations of the many iterations of hardware, MFT, MVS, Compilers, etc. It was a blast!!! BTW: I used to live in Rhinebeck - kinda inbetween the two plants... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Jan 13 15:42:24 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:37:24 -5 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: References: <20060113112254.JWJP15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jan 13, 6 07:15:19 am Message-ID: <20060114014421.WMQG15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > > Not sure why this comment came out - the original conversation was specifically > > about machines capable of running ImageDisk, which would imply PCs. I'm > > Simple : > > Several of us (including myself) don't have space to set up another > machine, like a modern PC. You suggested a KVM switch. As I understand > it, this is a device that switches a single keyboard, monitor and mouse > between 2 machines. But I never suggested a KVM switch in response to anything you posted! Nor did I suggest a KVM switch in response anyone else posting about problems finding space for "classic" machines. The thread I responded to was from someone who was lamenting not having room to setup "another PC" for ImageDisk because he had several PCs and monitors already on his desk (At least from his descriptions of them and their uses, it seemed evident that at least some of them were PCs). I suggested hard drive carriers and a KVM switch as possible alternatives to setting up another PC, and as ways to reduce the space taken by monitors FOR HIS MULTIPLE PCs. Is there a new rule in cctalk that responses to specific questions/problems must now be applicable to every possible machine that someone on the list uses? If so, I think this is going to severely limit the suggestions we can offer. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 13 19:48:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:48:48 -0800 Subject: cleaning keyboards in the dishwasher In-Reply-To: <200601140058.QAA19719@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200601140058.QAA19719@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <200601131748480869.0BD56E74@10.0.0.252> On 1/13/2006 at 4:58 PM Dwight Elvey wrote: > I'm not sure, not being an expert, but your problem >sounds like an issue of the flux not holding up to the >temperature. > You should check with the manufacture of the solder >to find what they recommend. Also, sometimes welding >supplies will have some info as well. Checked with the manufacturer's web site and they say it's good for solders, including lead-free) with liquidus below 700F (371C). I think the problem is more like this: Sn95Sb05 alloy flow temp: 232-240C Sn65Pb35 alloy flow temp: 183-247C The Sn65Pb35 alloy is the eutectic alloy; i.e. there's no plastic range to speak of; it's either solid or it's liquid. Compare an 8C range with a 64C range and it's immediately apparent why the lead-based solder works better. At least that's what I think. If I were soldering connections on a PCB, there would be no problem, but when working with large sheet metal joints, maintaining uniform heating is very difficult. Still, there are lots of new alloys out there, and one might be just the ticket if I can find it. Cheers, Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jan 13 19:49:19 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:49:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: <200601131737.39603.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: > BTW: I used to live in Rhinebeck - kinda inbetween the two plants... Where? I am in Staatsburg right now, in a house that apparently had an IBM engineer in it about the same timeframe. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Jan 13 19:59:15 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:59:15 -0500 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: References: <20060113112254.JWJP15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20060113205915.38964784.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 00:58:58 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > > > > Heh. There are three monitors on my desk, four machines above it on the > > > > > "second level" I built when things started getting tight, and a > > > > > (seldom-used) monitor sitting on top of those, > > > > > > > > I think I already mentioned "KVM". > > > > > > Yes, but this is classiccmp :-). Exactly none of the 180+ machines I have > > > here would work with a normal KVM switch (most don't have PC-like > > > keyboard interfaces, none have VGA-type monitors). A KVM swtich will not > > > help when the monintors taking up you desk belong to things like > > > classic-PERQs. Or, indeed, when the monitor is built into the machine > > > > Not sure why this comment came out - the original conversation was specifically > > about machines capable of running ImageDisk, which would imply PCs. I'm > > > Simple : > > Several of us (including myself) don't have space to set up another > machine, like a modern PC. You suggested a KVM switch. As I understand > it, this is a device that switches a single keyboard, monitor and mouse > between 2 machines. Why are you participating in this thread, then? We are talking about preserving the data on old diskettes using a modern PC as the tool to do so with. Why should it matter to anybody interested in the topic that you don't have modern PCs to use as a tool for reading and preserving images? Your comments in this thread have been mostly offtopic. I'm a little disappointed that the 'Thanks again, Dave!' thread has turned into another rant. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jan 13 20:11:28 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:11:28 -0800 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601131811.28628.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 13 January 2006 17:49, William Donzelli wrote: > > BTW: I used to live in Rhinebeck - kinda inbetween the two plants... > > Where? I am in Staatsburg right now, in a house that apparently had an IBM > engineer in it about the same timeframe. There were a LOT of IBM engineers living in the area at that time. If fact almost too many ;-) I was a volunteer paramedic on the Rhinebeck Rescue Squad - and with only one or two exceptions, ALL of my fellow volunteer paramedics were IBMers... I lived at 13 South Parsonage Street, right in the town. I loved Rhinebeck! I also owned a piece of the Astor estate, near the river. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From brian at quarterbyte.com Fri Jan 13 20:38:05 2006 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:38:05 -0800 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: <200601132308.k0DN7ApR019176@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43C7F38D.14604.275E1225@localhost> > Time to go rent an abandoned car factory I would think. Or an abandoned biscuit factory :) Norm Aleks and my 4331 system is at the Sunshine Biscuit Factory in Oakland, CA, in a room that used to be used to store Cheeze-Its dough. Brian From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 20:41:59 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:41:59 -0500 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: <200601131737.39603.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <43C84FA1.3070601@gmail.com> <200601131737.39603.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <43C864F7.1020200@gmail.com> Lyle Bickley wrote: > Ah, you guys are bringing up some fond remembrances. I had an office in the > 705 Building in Poughkeepsie and an office in the manufacturing plant in > Kingston. Date 1963 - when IBM was "finishing off" the 7094 line in > Poughkeepsie and the 7044 line in Kingston and replacing them with System/360 > lines. When System/360 was launched, I ran a software modeling group - which > ran simulations of the many iterations of hardware, MFT, MVS, Compilers, etc. > It was a blast!!! > > BTW: I used to live in Rhinebeck - kinda inbetween the two plants... My office is in B/004-3. Were you in 705 when it opened? It looks a lot newer than the other side of the plant. I grew up in Poughkeepsie, myself. My parents have worked in East Fishkill plant for many years. Peace... Sridhar From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jan 13 21:45:21 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 22:45:21 -0500 Subject: KM11 replica In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 14 Jan 2006 00:53:58 GMT." Message-ID: <200601140345.k0E3jLUv012520@mwave.heeltoe.com> Tony Duell wrote: > >I also wonder if I should be quite so free with advice and designs in the >future. Tony - I respect you immensely and highly value your opinion, but in this case I think you should be flattered, not upset. We're all just trying to keep our old pdp's alive, right? no money to made here. no fame to be had. It's wrong of me to tell you (or anyone) how to feel, but I'm glad someone made these pcbs. We need more of this sort of thing, not less. I separate designs into those with real proprietary work which I hope to make money off and those which I do for love (or obsession :-). This one seems like one done for love (or obsession). I hope you keep giving out designs - it's a good thing. (and thanks!) -brad From rcini at optonline.net Fri Jan 13 22:23:42 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:23:42 -0500 Subject: AC power on front panels Message-ID: <001001c618c2$4d531390$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I'm playing around with my relatively new IMSAI and I was pondering the following. The unit is constructed with the front panel power switch unconnected and the corresponding terminals on the power supply board jumpered together. There is a mains switch on the rear panel which takes the place of the front panel switch. While for safety reasons I cannot disagree with the approach - it's plain stupid to put uninsulated mains voltage in a low-voltage area (and unpassable by UL evaluators I'm sure) - it detracts a bit from its use because you have to reach behind the unit to turn it on. Has anyone come up with an elegant solution to being able to use the front panel power switch while keeping it safe? I was toying with some sort of low-voltage circuit (small LV transformer and relay, with the front panel switch in the loop on the coil side). Another idea I had was to hot glue a dielectric insulator board (that gray cardboard kind of stuff) over the parts of the front panel that would be exposed. Ideas? Too much time on my hands? Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jan 13 22:49:41 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:49:41 -0800 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: <43C864F7.1020200@gmail.com> References: <200601131737.39603.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <43C864F7.1020200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200601132049.41913.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 13 January 2006 18:41, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Lyle Bickley wrote: > > Ah, you guys are bringing up some fond remembrances. I had an office in > > the 705 Building in Poughkeepsie and an office in the manufacturing plant > > in Kingston. Date 1963 - when IBM was "finishing off" the 7094 line in > > Poughkeepsie and the 7044 line in Kingston and replacing them with > > System/360 lines. When System/360 was launched, I ran a software modeling > > group - which ran simulations of the many iterations of hardware, MFT, > > MVS, Compilers, etc. It was a blast!!! > > > > BTW: I used to live in Rhinebeck - kinda inbetween the two plants... > > My office is in B/004-3. Were you in 705 when it opened? It looks a > lot newer than the other side of the plant. The 705 building is much newer than the other side of the plant. It was already occupied when I came to Poughkeepsie. But it was "the" place to be - since most of the System/360 software development (OS, compilers) work was done there. Fred Brooks (360 Architect, author of the "Mythical Man Month") had his office in 705 - and I used to attend meetings in his office. I considered that a real privilege at the time. He is a man of great brilliance and integrity... > I grew up in Poughkeepsie, myself. My parents have worked in East > Fishkill plant for many years. > Peace... Sridhar Wow, that's cool. Feels like "old home week" :-) What do you do at B/004-3? Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From leeeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jan 13 22:57:23 2006 From: leeeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 04:57:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AC power on front panels Message-ID: <20060114045723.11634.qmail@web25808.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > Has anyone come up with an elegant solution to being able to > use the front panel power switch while keeping it safe? Can't you sleve it as is done with the power switch on an AT power supply? Lee. .. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Jan 13 23:20:45 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:20:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: AC power on front panels In-Reply-To: <001001c618c2$4d531390$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <20060114052045.54695.qmail@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I don't think there is anything intrinsically unsafe about the switch itself, which is rated for line voltage and likely UL approved. The idiocy of the IMSAI design is that the switch is connected via PC traces to solder pads at the top edge of the board where the wiring to the power supply attaches -- live line voltage exposed at a location that just invites contact while one is otherwise careful to avoid the power-supply internals. I've seen people put a few strips of electrician's tape over the pads to insulate them, though a fold of fishpaper and hot-glue might be less likely to fall off with age (??). Another piece of bad design is the bare metal fuse clip that is so close to the edge of the power supply PC board that I would be concerned about the possibility of contact with the case cover, e.g., if the case was sufficiently deformed. Another fishpaper might be a good idea there. --Bill From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jan 14 00:15:07 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 01:15:07 -0500 Subject: AC power on front panels In-Reply-To: <20060114052045.54695.qmail@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001d01c618d1$de1be780$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Interestingly, there is no fuse holder at that location (bridged with a jumper). Instead, there is a standard 1-1/4" glass fuse holder in the back panel. Certain spots of the power supply board I've glued-over with insulating plastic (salvaged from the HV section of various power supplies over the years). Very bad design indeed. The pads at the top are very close to the metal cage and the HV traces on the power supply board are uninsulated. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Maddox Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 12:21 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: AC power on front panels I don't think there is anything intrinsically unsafe about the switch itself, which is rated for line voltage and likely UL approved. The idiocy of the IMSAI design is that the switch is connected via PC traces to solder pads at the top edge of the board where the wiring to the power supply attaches -- live line voltage exposed at a location that just invites contact while one is otherwise careful to avoid the power-supply internals. I've seen people put a few strips of electrician's tape over the pads to insulate them, though a fold of fishpaper and hot-glue might be less likely to fall off with age (??). Another piece of bad design is the bare metal fuse clip that is so close to the edge of the power supply PC board that I would be concerned about the possibility of contact with the case cover, e.g., if the case was sufficiently deformed. Another fishpaper might be a good idea there. --Bill From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Jan 14 00:58:11 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 01:58:11 -0500 Subject: dangerous voltages inside In-Reply-To: <001d01c618d1$de1be780$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <20060114052045.54695.qmail@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <001d01c618d1$de1be780$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <20060114015811.3fb037f1.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 01:15:07 -0500 "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > Interestingly, there is no fuse holder at that location (bridged with a > jumper). Instead, there is a standard 1-1/4" glass fuse holder in the back > panel. Certain spots of the power supply board I've glued-over with > insulating plastic (salvaged from the HV section of various power supplies > over the years). > > Very bad design indeed. The pads at the top are very close to the metal cage > and the HV traces on the power supply board are uninsulated. > The worst high voltage design I have ever seen was a Fluke Digital Voltmeter that I used to have. I think it was an 8300. It used Nixie displays, and the high voltage for the Nixie tubes ran on a trace that just weaved it's way across the circuit board (with feedthroughs, etc,) without isolation or anything about it to differentiate it from other traces. The board was not solder-masked, so the metal was bare and exposed. Adjacent tracks were low-level signal lines. Granted, it was a high-end precision DMM so nobody was supposed to go inside except the high-priest calibration dude, but still.... Does anybody else here appreciate old Fluke gear? My newest piece is an 8060 DMM, which is late-70's 4-1/2 digit meter. What I really like are the Fluke Differential voltmeters. I currently have a nice 881AB. The John Fluke Company made their name with Differential Voltmeters and high-end lab-grade meters. (I'm biased against anything in a Fluke DMM without a 4-digit model no., the 8060 is the best handheld they ever made, the newer 'autorange' lines have always been a disappointment to me.) From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 14 01:34:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:34:38 -0800 Subject: dangerous voltages inside In-Reply-To: <20060114015811.3fb037f1.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20060114052045.54695.qmail@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <001d01c618d1$de1be780$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <20060114015811.3fb037f1.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200601132334380800.0D1208B6@10.0.0.252> I don't know how practical it would be, but might it be possible to actuate a remote AC switch by using an insulated mechanical linkage? Otherwise, I'd be sore tempted to just add a small step-down transformer and a relay. The MITS Altair's like that too. Damned dangerous. Cheers, Chuck From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Jan 14 04:03:24 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 11:03:24 +0100 Subject: Boolean LEGO logic Message-ID: <1137233004.3426.9.camel@fortran.babel> Fascinating! Wonder how one would design the RAM. What the world needs is a LEGO PDP-8! :) http://goldfish.ikaruga.co.uk/logic.html -toresbe :) From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Jan 14 00:54:53 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 06:49:53 -5 Subject: AC power on front panels In-Reply-To: <001001c618c2$4d531390$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <20060114105650.BHQY17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Has anyone come up with an elegant solution to being able to use > the front panel power switch while keeping it safe? I was toying with some > sort of low-voltage circuit (small LV transformer and relay, with the front > panel switch in the loop on the coil side). Another idea I had was to hot > glue a dielectric insulator board (that gray cardboard kind of stuff) over > the parts of the front panel that would be exposed. The bad thing about the IMSAI design is the bare connections to mains at the top of the panel - normally the remainder of the panel is fairly safe behind the acrylic front - even with the cover off. You can cover the pads at the top of the board with a few strips of good electrical tape. If you really don't want mains power at the front panel at all, then a relay is paobably the best solution - lots of room to mount it (and the xfmr to power it), and you don't have to modify the front panel. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Jan 14 05:09:13 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 11:09:13 -0000 (GMT) Subject: AC power on front panels In-Reply-To: <20060114105650.BHQY17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <001001c618c2$4d531390$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <20060114105650.BHQY17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <5813.195.212.29.92.1137236953.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > If you really don't want mains power at the front panel at all, then a > relay > is paobably the best solution - lots of room to mount it (and the xfmr to > power it), and you don't have to modify the front panel. Surely a transformer would need to be powered all the time? Why not use a nicad to pull the relay in, and charge it up when the unit is on? If the nicad was flat, you could just have an ordinary pushbutton to bypass the relay to get you going. Gordon. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Jan 14 06:27:29 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:27:29 +0100 Subject: Apollo DN10000 (was: Available for pickup. ) In-Reply-To: References: <20060113110638.285c3d61.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20060114122729.GA9332@hoss.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:20:45PM -0700, Richard wrote: [Intergraph 2020] > > BTW: I don't have keyboard, mouse nor the strange video cable for that > > machine. If someone in Germany wants that box drop me a mail. > I'm assuming its ridiculously heavy :-), like 45 kg? No, it is a moderately sized desktop box. Maybe 10 kg. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From stuart at zen.co.uk Sat Jan 14 07:42:06 2006 From: stuart at zen.co.uk (Stu Birchall) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:42:06 +0000 Subject: UK - Machines to donate and my wants list (Lisa/Mac XL), please take a look! In-Reply-To: <20060113110638.285c3d61.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1137064185.5176.27.camel@fortran.babel> <20060113110638.285c3d61.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: Hi everyone, I need a bit of space and want to rationalise my collection a bit. These machines get none of my time, so anyone who can collect and can make use of them as a hobbyist, please get in touch: Link 480Z and drive TI994A and PEB Tandy COCO3 Amiga 2000 and an array of expansion boards I am looking out for: Apple Lisa/Mac XL - Dead or alive, in whatever condition ACT/Victor Sirius ACT/Apricot portable computer Please drop me a line if interested/can help with, any of the above. Thanks, Stu From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jan 14 10:19:32 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 11:19:32 -0500 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: <200601132049.41913.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200601131737.39603.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <43C864F7.1020200@gmail.com> <200601132049.41913.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <43C92494.9090308@gmail.com> Lyle Bickley wrote: >>>Ah, you guys are bringing up some fond remembrances. I had an office in >>>the 705 Building in Poughkeepsie and an office in the manufacturing plant >>>in Kingston. Date 1963 - when IBM was "finishing off" the 7094 line in >>>Poughkeepsie and the 7044 line in Kingston and replacing them with >>>System/360 lines. When System/360 was launched, I ran a software modeling >>>group - which ran simulations of the many iterations of hardware, MFT, >>>MVS, Compilers, etc. It was a blast!!! >>> >>>BTW: I used to live in Rhinebeck - kinda inbetween the two plants... >> >>My office is in B/004-3. Were you in 705 when it opened? It looks a >>lot newer than the other side of the plant. > > The 705 building is much newer than the other side of the plant. It was > already occupied when I came to Poughkeepsie. But it was "the" place to be - > since most of the System/360 software development (OS, compilers) work was > done there. Fred Brooks (360 Architect, author of the "Mythical Man Month") > had his office in 705 - and I used to attend meetings in his office. I > considered that a real privilege at the time. He is a man of great brilliance > and integrity... That is *tremendously* cool. >>I grew up in Poughkeepsie, myself. My parents have worked in East >>Fishkill plant for many years. > > Wow, that's cool. Feels like "old home week" :-) > > What do you do at B/004-3? I work for Facilities Site Operations. I write all of their custom code. A bunch of industrial instrumentation and controls, and a bunch of project tracking/financial and purchasing. It's a bit of a mix. Peace... Sridhar From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sat Jan 14 11:02:44 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 18:02:44 +0100 Subject: AC power on front panels Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22A5@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Use a Solid State Relay with the proper rating at the AC switching side, and operating on low-voltage DC at the input side. Nice to have is a SSR which switches the load at AC voltage zero-crossing. If you install the SSR at the rear side, you can keep the AC power leads very short between the inlet, SSR, and the power transformer. Now, you need a DC source, which is switched to the SSR input from the console front side. Most SSRs operate at the input range of 3 - 32V, so either install 3 NiCaDs, or install a small transformer with a bridge rectifier and an electrolytic capacitor to smooth the DC. If you go for the second choice, get a good quality transformer as it might be powered always. If you go for the NiCaDs, you might consider a simple loader that recharges the NiCaDs when the AC power is on the main transformer (unit switched ON). - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Richard A. Cini Verzonden: za 14-01-2006 05:23 Aan: CCTalk Onderwerp: AC power on front panels I'm playing around with my relatively new IMSAI and I was pondering the following. The unit is constructed with the front panel power switch unconnected and the corresponding terminals on the power supply board jumpered together. There is a mains switch on the rear panel which takes the place of the front panel switch. While for safety reasons I cannot disagree with the approach - it's plain stupid to put uninsulated mains voltage in a low-voltage area (and unpassable by UL evaluators I'm sure) - it detracts a bit from its use because you have to reach behind the unit to turn it on. Has anyone come up with an elegant solution to being able to use the front panel power switch while keeping it safe? I was toying with some sort of low-voltage circuit (small LV transformer and relay, with the front panel switch in the loop on the coil side). Another idea I had was to hot glue a dielectric insulator board (that gray cardboard kind of stuff) over the parts of the front panel that would be exposed. Ideas? Too much time on my hands? Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jan 14 12:01:26 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:01:26 -0600 Subject: This weekend In-Reply-To: <43C92494.9090308@gmail.com> References: <200601131737.39603.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <43C864F7.1020200@gmail.com> <200601132049.41913.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <43C92494.9090308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060114115911.0522fc78@mail> At 10:19 AM 1/14/2006, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Fred Brooks (360 Architect, author of the "Mythical Man Month") had his office in 705 - and I used to attend meetings in his office. I considered that a real privilege at the time. He is a man of great brilliance and integrity... > >That is *tremendously* cool. Brooks turns up at SIGGRAPH. I just about fell over the first time I saw him, a decade or so ago. He walked up to my booth, legitimately interested in my products, and I think I was a bit misty-eyed when I gave him a gratis copy of everything I was offering. Call me a geek. - John From david at cantrell.org.uk Sat Jan 14 12:34:15 2006 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 18:34:15 +0000 Subject: Biography of John Simmons Message-ID: <20060114183413.GA12151@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Today's "Life of the Day" from the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography is John Simmons, who was instrumental in the creation of the LEO I computer by Lyons, which was the first computer to be used for automating tedious office jobs. http://www.oxforddnb.com/public/lotw/1.html -- David Cantrell | top google result for "topless karaoke murders" You know you're getting old when you fancy the teenager's parent and ignore the teenager -- Paul M in uknot From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jan 14 12:32:36 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:32:36 -0600 Subject: Suns available Madison, WI; SCSI 9-track wanted In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060113121437.04c4f730@mail> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060113121437.04c4f730@mail> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060114122044.04f92cb0@mail> I've turned over the contact info to the three people who were interested in these Sun systems. What I really wanted to find was a tabletop SCSI 9-track. By fortuitous circumstance, I checked eBay past auctions and among the very few auctions was a guy 45 minutes away unsuccessfully selling a few, so yesterday I picked up three units yesterday for $250. For this to happen in SE Wisconsin and not Silicon Valley was clear evidence of my clean living and resulting good karma. Two HP 88780B and one slimmer Overland Data. The HPs are nice, heavy engineering and all three appear to be in good shape. If anyone wants one, I probably only need to keep one after I finish a data conversion project for a client. The client's data is circa 1992. A nearby data-entry place was still using 9-tracks for long-term storage. They'd enter the data on PCs and write to table-top units. They junked the last of their drives a few years ago. The tape drives I bought were pulled from active service in the ink jet printing industry, the seller explained. "Ink jet" as in addressing junk mail, for example. They were connected to VME-based rack-mount systems that read the tapes and drove the printers on the shop floor. So like paper tape and CNC, it seems that 9-tracks are still in use out there. Not all had switched to other storage methods. - John From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 14 12:45:18 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 10:45:18 -0800 Subject: AC power on front panels In-Reply-To: <5813.195.212.29.92.1137236953.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> References: <001001c618c2$4d531390$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <20060114105650.BHQY17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <5813.195.212.29.92.1137236953.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200601141045180257.0F780949@10.0.0.252> On 1/14/2006 at 11:09 AM gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: >Surely a transformer would need to be powered all the time? So what? Your central heating system and doorbell have one. Much, if not most, modern electronic equipment, such as PCs, televisions, etc. all have some tiny draw from the AC mains even when powered off. If all you needed was a very small DC supply you could do away with the transformer and perhaps use a couple of capacitors in series with each side of the line, followed by a rectifier and a zener--it wouldn't provide quite the isolation from the line that would be ideal, but it wouldn't need a transformer. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 14 13:03:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 11:03:03 -0800 Subject: Biography of John Simmons In-Reply-To: <20060114183413.GA12151@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <20060114183413.GA12151@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <200601141103030449.0F884A30@10.0.0.252> On 1/14/2006 at 6:34 PM David Cantrell wrote: >Today's "Life of the Day" from the Oxford Dictionary of National >Biography is John Simmons, who was instrumental in the creation of the >LEO I computer by Lyons, which was the first computer to be used for >automating tedious office jobs. Some years ago, there was a good article in the IEEE CS "Annals" about the Leo I. A fascinating story. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jan 14 13:17:32 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 14:17:32 -0500 Subject: Suns available Madison, WI; SCSI 9-track wanted In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060114122044.04f92cb0@mail> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060113121437.04c4f730@mail> <6.2.3.4.2.20060114122044.04f92cb0@mail> Message-ID: <20060114191732.27DDCBA4834@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> John Foust wrote: > The tape drives I bought were pulled from active service in the > ink jet printing industry, the seller explained. "Ink jet" as in > addressing junk mail, for example. They were connected to VME-based > rack-mount systems that read the tapes and drove the printers > on the shop floor. So like paper tape and CNC, it seems that > 9-tracks are still in use out there. Not all had switched to > other storage methods. The euphemism I hear for junk mail is "direct mail". They still actively use 9-tracks for exchanging name/address/zip databases, surprisingly enough (maybe the VME-based printing system you mention is the reason.) Tim. From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Sat Jan 14 13:59:54 2006 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 08:59:54 +1300 Subject: AC power on front panels References: <001001c618c2$4d531390$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz><20060114105650.BHQY17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com><5813.195.212.29.92.1137236953.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> <200601141045180257.0F780949@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <07e001c61945$163d1ee0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 7:45 AM Subject: Re: AC power on front panels > On 1/14/2006 at 11:09 AM gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: > >>Surely a transformer would need to be powered all the time? > > So what? Your central heating system and doorbell have one. Much, > if not > most, modern electronic equipment, such as PCs, televisions, etc. > all have > some tiny draw from the AC mains even when powered off. If all > you > needed was a very small DC supply you could do away with the > transformer > and perhaps use a couple of capacitors in series with each side of > the > line, followed by a rectifier and a zener--it wouldn't provide quite > the > isolation from the line that would be ideal, but it wouldn't need a > transformer. > > Cheers, > Chuck For a practical implementation of this sort of arrangement see the circuit here- http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~tractorb/collins/Collins%2075S%20mains%20switch%20.pdf I threw this together to get round an issue with under-rated wafer switch contacts being used for mains switching. Regards DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 13/01/2006 From Tim at Rikers.org Sat Jan 14 14:01:04 2006 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:01:04 -0700 Subject: HP Progress Message-ID: <43C95880.3040305@Rikers.org> I spent last evening with a friend hacking on my HP-2112A. We got it up and running! Still no work on the peripherals. It does have a sticky bit that I've not yet tracked down, but I presume that's another bad connection someplace. At any rate, I got a simple delayed binary counter running that dumps to the S register. I powered up the 2108 as well running a chaser routine: http://rikers.org/hp2100/hp2108a2112a.avi Assembly sources are in that same directory if you are curious. http://rikers.org/hp2100/ One step closer to running ACCESS on real hardware. =) It looks like SIMH has IPL issues under Linux and probably other OSes. I can get ACCESS running in windows but not under Linux. I'll spend some time debugging that soon. I don't have the hardware for the IPL so I'll need that someday. I understand that I need 4 12566 cards and some custom cables. I bought a few cable ends from larry of ebay and I have these two cards: GND TRUE IN/OUT - 12566-8001, 12666-6001 907 22 +TRUE IN/OUT - 12566-8001, 12566-6002 907 22 But I only have 2. If anyone has others that they might want to trade boards for I might be interested. ;-) At some point I'll likely need the IOP firmware but I know Jay has it so I'm sure we can work something out there. Also need the breakout panel for my MUX set at somepoint. At least I need the edge connectors. They are the same size as the normal edge connector, but use a higher pin density. Leads welcome! Hardware pictures: http://rikers.org/hardware/ I'm often on #classiccmp on irc.freenode.net as TimRiker. Join us. ;-) -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jan 14 15:03:12 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 15:03:12 -0600 Subject: northstart stuff Message-ID: <001101c6194d$ee5aebb0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Thought I'd throw out to the list what was in my northstar haul, in case there's something someone is desperate for a copy of.. Unopened box of DC300XL cartridges (5) (these must have gone with some other system) Opened box of DC300XL cartridges, 3 in original wrap (these must have gone with some other system) Box of 14 (blank?) floppy disks, 10 sector (hard) (hopefully not really blank) Box of floppies (originals) for Wordstar Professional release 5. Appears to be two copies (both originals) all soft sector Binder, northstar infomanager - manual but no diskettes :\ Binder, northstar infomanager II - manual but no diskettes :\ Manual - north star application software ASP utilites package Users manual Manual - north star infomanager data management system Manual - XL-Z80 software development system for the northstar micro disk system Manual - The north star disk operating system v2 rel 3 Release notes - release 4 system software changes north star computers 1978 Release notes - release 3 north star version 6 basic Manual - North star basic version 6 Manual - north star system software manual addendum rev. 2.1 Manual - north star infomanager tutorial Manual - north star horizon computer system (double density) Manual - north star z80a processo board, zpb-a manual Schematic - cromemco 16k memory board Manual - zilog Z80-cpu Z80A-cpu technical manual Manual - north star system software manual Manual - north star 16k ram board Release notes - XL-8080/XL-Z80 rel 5 software change description Manual - cromemco 16k memory board technical manual Manual - north star horizon computer system Manual - north star z80a processor board zpb-a Manual - Cromemco Z80 monitor instruction manual Manual - Hazeltine 1420 reference manual Product Data Sheet - Western Union model 32 telex KSR and ASR sets (NICE!) Manual - Cromemco ZPU assembly Schematic - Cromemco ZPU Manual - Cromemco TU-ART digital interface Scan/photocopies - Various Cromemco boards... trying to lift artwork maybe? Manual - Cromemco 16kz ram instruction manual Manual - Cromemco 16kz ram card technical manual (two copies) One QUME QVT102 terminal Two Hazeltine 1420 terminals Three northstar horizon computers (two with wood trim, one with metal trim) An external dual floppy drive for one of the three horizons So, in all this mess, it sounds like there is no OS disks. Hopefully, there are some Northstar fans around than can help :) Regards, Jay West From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 14 15:44:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 13:44:38 -0800 Subject: AC power on front panels In-Reply-To: <07e001c61945$163d1ee0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> References: <001001c618c2$4d531390$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <20060114105650.BHQY17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <5813.195.212.29.92.1137236953.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> <200601141045180257.0F780949@10.0.0.252> <07e001c61945$163d1ee0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> Message-ID: <200601141344380344.101C3736@10.0.0.252> On 1/15/2006 at 8:59 AM Dave Brown wrote: >For a practical implementation of this sort of arrangement see the >circuit here- > >http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~tractorb/collins/Collins%2075S%20mains%20switc h%20.pdf Very nice job, particularly using the grounded/earthed neutral as the return. Here in the USA, one side of the 120vac is tied to the third prong of the mains receptacle in the distribution panel, so this would also be a way to avoid tying into an incorrectly-wired receptacle (more common than you'd think!). Back in the bad old days of glass-enclosed active devices, a dodge for powering a single 6.3v 0.3a filament from the mains without a filament transformer was to use a 1.0 uf nonpolar cap as a dropping device. In that application, if the cap failed, the filament of the tube/valve would simply burn out. Perhaps a very small (7w) incandescent bulb might be used in your circuit in place of a 100 ma fluse. Would a common NE-2 neon also work as protection? It might be nice to use as a "this equipment is connected to the mains" indicator. Cheers, Chuck From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Jan 14 11:02:22 2006 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:02:22 +0000 Subject: AC power on front panels In-Reply-To: <200601141344380344.101C3736@10.0.0.252> References: <07e001c61945$163d1ee0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> Message-ID: <20060114215743.JDXY20927.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > On 1/15/2006 at 8:59 AM Dave Brown wrote: > > >For a practical implementation of this sort of arrangement see the > >circuit here- > > > >http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~tractorb/collins/Collins%2075S%20mains%20switc > h%20.pdf > > Very nice job, particularly using the grounded/earthed neutral as the > return. Here in the USA, one side of the 120vac is tied to the third prong > of the mains receptacle in the distribution panel, so this would also be a > way to avoid tying into an incorrectly-wired receptacle (more common than > you'd think!). > SNIP > Cheers, > Chuck Chuck is correct, this is major reason for using standby transformers (AC or SMPS) to provide low current power for power controlling the main power. To other one who did this modifcation on a radio equipment and very low current control of the SSR relay, find a cheap LED small digital alarm clock, uses 1" cube transformer and is wired. Majority of these are not on the PCB board and ready to use, cut a small area of PCB to get diode(s), cap for DC output where transformer wires are soldered on. Usually 100mA, 16 to 12VAC. Add a fuse for the mains side of transformer and another fuse after it. Cheers, Wizard From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Jan 14 12:08:09 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 18:03:09 -5 Subject: northstart stuff In-Reply-To: <001101c6194d$ee5aebb0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Message-ID: <20060114221007.LIYC15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > So, in all this mess, it sounds like there is no OS disks. Hopefully, there > are some Northstar fans around than can help :) Hopefully there will be at least one boot disk among the "blank" floppies that you have, as getting the OS into a horizon without a boot disk can be difficult (not not impossible). I have images for several NorthStar OS's on my site. To transfer the images to physical disks, you need my NST program (also available on the site) which transfers them serially to the Horizon where a small client will write them to the hard-sector disks (hence the problem if you don't already have a system booting). First thing you need to do is determine for certain if you have the single density or double density controller. I have photos of both on my site - I would guess that you have the DD controller since you have a Horizon DD manual, and by the other software mentioned. If you can find a bootable version of NorthStar DOS, then you can transfer my client to it (NST can "type" the client in to the NS Mxxxx monitor). Then run the client and you can use NST on the PC to read/write disk from/to image files (I have quite a few NS images available - and would welcome new ones). For people who don't have a bootable disk, I have created "in memory" images for both the single and double density system which contains both the OS and the NST client. The tough part is getting it "in memory" on a Horizon, which has no front panel. If have have a ROM board, easiest thing to do is to deselect RAM at 0000 and put in a ROM monitor. I used the older "loads at 2000" versions of N* OS for the in-memory system, so you have 8K at 0000. You will also need to change the power-on vector jumpers on the CPU board to activate your ROM. (There is also 4K of "free" space from F000-FFFF is that works out better for you). More info on my site - give me a shout if you need help (I know lots about N* systems!) Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 14 13:49:34 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:49:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: KM11 replica In-Reply-To: <200601140345.k0E3jLUv012520@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Jan 13, 6 10:45:21 pm Message-ID: > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > >I also wonder if I should be quite so free with advice and designs in the > >future. > > Tony - I respect you immensely and highly value your opinion, but in this > case I think you should be flattered, not upset. Agreed. I have heard from the chap making these PCBs, and he as agreed to add a statement that it's baded on one of my designs. Which totally satisfies me. > > We're all just trying to keep our old pdp's alive, right? no money to > made here. no fame to be had. Oh, I agree totally. I gave away the original design notes, etc to that people could maintain these old machines. And as I said in my posting last night, I love these old machines so much that I certainly don't intend to stop people making KM11-a-likes based on my boards. > > It's wrong of me to tell you (or anyone) how to feel, but I'm glad someone > made these pcbs. We need more of this sort of thing, not less. Sure. I will say now that if I didn't have my original hand-wired version, and a pair of real DEC KM11s (!), I would have ordered a couple. As it is, I don't think I need any more maintenance boards :-). I am happy that somebody has taken the time to make a PCB for it (I didn't do this, have never claimed to have done this). > > I separate designs into those with real proprietary work which I hope to > make money off and those which I do for love (or obsession :-). This > one seems like one done for love (or obsession). Of course. And since he is propared to acknowledge the source of the design, I have no rpoblems. Carry on making and selling those boards! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 14 13:53:12 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:53:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AC power on front panels In-Reply-To: <001001c618c2$4d531390$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> from "Richard A. Cini" at Jan 13, 6 11:23:42 pm Message-ID: > All: > > > > I'm playing around with my relatively new IMSAI and I was > pondering the following. The unit is constructed with the front panel power > switch unconnected and the corresponding terminals on the power supply board > jumpered together. There is a mains switch on the rear panel which takes the > place of the front panel switch. > > > > While for safety reasons I cannot disagree with the approach - > it's plain stupid to put uninsulated mains voltage in a low-voltage area I would agree.... That is asking to either come into contact with some signal line (and blow chips all over the place) or you (and blow you all over the place). > (and unpassable by UL evaluators I'm sure) - it detracts a bit from its use > because you have to reach behind the unit to turn it on. > > > > Has anyone come up with an elegant solution to being able to use > the front panel power switch while keeping it safe? I was toying with some > sort of low-voltage circuit (small LV transformer and relay, with the front That's how DEC did it in some of the PDPs. A little transformer energised all the time with a rectifier and smoothing capacitor which suppled the voltage to operate a relay. DEC, of course, added circuity to allow for remote power on, emergency shutdown (if the machine overheated), etc. We had a discussion of the DEC power bus a week or so back. > panel switch in the loop on the coil side). Another idea I had was to hot > glue a dielectric insulator board (that gray cardboard kind of stuff) over > the parts of the front panel that would be exposed. This has the advantage of being closer to the original design (in that the machine is electrically unchanged). But I would go for the relay solution if it was my machine. It would be safer I think (both to you and the machine). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 14 16:22:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 22:22:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: dangerous voltages inside In-Reply-To: <20060114015811.3fb037f1.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jan 14, 6 01:58:11 am Message-ID: > The worst high voltage design I have ever seen was a Fluke > Digital Voltmeter that I used to have. I think it was an 8300. > It used Nixie displays, and the high voltage for the Nixie tubes > ran on a trace that just weaved it's way across the circuit board > (with feedthroughs, etc,) without isolation or anything about it > to differentiate it from other traces. The board was not > solder-masked, so the metal was bare and exposed. Adjacent > tracks were low-level signal lines. Well, the supply yo nixie tubes is likely to be a lot less deadly than mains. I am thinking of the HP9815 calculator. That has a Panaplex display, the HV for that comes from the PSU/printer board to the keyboard/display interface via one wire of a 24 pin ribbon cable. All the other pins are TTL level signals. And HV on exposed components on both boarrds. The worst I've seen (as it made me leap) was the PSU from a Tektronix terminal (I forget he model number, but it was a colour, raster-scan one). This was a little SMPSU in a metal can. Unfortunately, there was no bleeded resistor on the mains smoothing capacitors. If the startup resistor went open-circuit, the capcitors had no way to discharge. And the way into the supply was to undo a couple of screws and slide the PCB out. If you didn't realise the capcitors were likely to still be charged, you would most likely accidentally touch the mains smoothing capacitors with painful results. > Does anybody else here appreciate old Fluke gear? My newest Yes. OK, I've got a new-ish Fluke too (original 85) that I use all the time too. I have one of their data loggers, a 2240 or something like that. It's controlled by a pair of 4040s, one for the main control, one to drive the paper tape output. I have only one 10 channel input board (but I do have the temperature-compensated input connector block on it), the high-resolution ADC (of course this is isolated from ground, all the digital inputs/outputs to it are opto-isolated), the internal printer, and so on. It's very well made, and a joy to use. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 14 16:25:59 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 22:25:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AC power on front panels In-Reply-To: <5813.195.212.29.92.1137236953.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> from "gordonjcp@gjcp.net" at Jan 14, 6 11:09:13 am Message-ID: > > > > If you really don't want mains power at the front panel at all, then a > > relay > > is paobably the best solution - lots of room to mount it (and the xfmr to > > power it), and you don't have to modify the front panel. > > Surely a transformer would need to be powered all the time? So? DEC did that in their power controllers. I am quite sure you have plenty of trnasformers powered all the time anyway -- the doorbell, the clock/timer in the cooker/microwave oven, the VCR, ATX PSUs, etc.... OK, some of those are SMPSUs running in standby mode, but the point is that there's plenty of circuity energised all the time. And don't you unplug your classic computers when you're not using them? I certainly do. > > Why not use a nicad to pull the relay in, and charge it up when the unit > is on? If the nicad was flat, you could just have an ordinary pushbutton > to bypass the relay to get you going. Having had experience of NiCd powered power switches in machines like the Torch XX and the Whitechapel MG1, I would not recomend this. NiCds always seem to be discheargeed when you need them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 14 16:30:32 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 22:30:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <20060114014421.WMQG15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jan 13, 6 09:37:24 pm Message-ID: > > > > Not sure why this comment came out - the original conversation was specifically > > > about machines capable of running ImageDisk, which would imply PCs. I'm > > > > Simple : > > > > Several of us (including myself) don't have space to set up another > > machine, like a modern PC. You suggested a KVM switch. As I understand > > it, this is a device that switches a single keyboard, monitor and mouse > > between 2 machines. > > But I never suggested a KVM switch in response to anything you posted! Are you seriously suggesting that the rest of us can't join in to other discussions? > Nor did I suggest a KVM switch in response anyone else posting about > problems finding space for "classic" machines. > > The thread I responded to was from someone who was lamenting not having > room to setup "another PC" for ImageDisk because he had several PCs Actually, 'PC' doesn't mean it will work with a KVM switch. I have 2 PCs on my desk, AFAIK I couldn't use a VM switch, at least not a normal, commercial one, to eliminate one of the keyboards and monitors. For reference the 2 machines are the much-hacked PC/AT with MDA display I am typing this on, and a PC/XT with CGA display. Both have the original IBM keyboards. > and monitors already on his desk (At least from his descriptions of them and > their uses, it seemed evident that at least some of them were PCs). I suggested > hard drive carriers and a KVM switch as possible alternatives to setting up another > PC, and as ways to reduce the space taken by monitors FOR HIS MULTIPLE PCs. Sure, and in a lot of cases that's a perfectly reasonable solution. It doesn't work foe all of us. > > Is there a new rule in cctalk that responses to specific questions/problems must > now be applicable to every possible machine that someone on the list uses? If > so, I think this is going to severely limit the suggestions we can offer. Well, only if you don't want some of us pointing out it doesn't work in _all_ cases. -tony From allain at panix.com Sat Jan 14 17:08:51 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 18:08:51 -0500 Subject: Boolean LEGO logic References: <1137233004.3426.9.camel@fortran.babel> Message-ID: <00f601c6195f$7db15900$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Subject: Boolean LEGO logic > http://goldfish.ikaruga.co.uk/logic.html Even includes a description of clocked logic. *Grumble* need even More Lego Technic! :) Very Good, John A. From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jan 14 17:10:28 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 18:10:28 -0500 Subject: Stupid Mac Ethernet question Message-ID: <001601c6195f$b5d68440$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I just recently upgraded the network cabling in my house to 5e as part of some new construction, and I also upgraded the networking components. Now, all of my normal machines run at 100 full duplex. Anyway. The strangest thing happened to my Mac IIci - the Ethernet connection no longer works. I don't even get a link light on the new switch (a Cisco/Linksys switch). However, when I plug the Mac into a plain old 10BT hub and then uplink it to the switch, I at least get a link light. Nothing else works, though. The router doesn't show the Mac obtaining an IP address, and the ci doesn't see the AppleTalk zone that's on my NT Server box. In the previous configuration, everything went through a 24-port hub. Does this problem resonate with anyone? Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Sat Jan 14 17:12:25 2006 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 12:12:25 +1300 Subject: dangerous voltages inside References: <20060114052045.54695.qmail@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com><001d01c618d1$de1be780$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <20060114015811.3fb037f1.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <092301c6195f$fb952180$7900a8c0@athlon1200> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Stevens" snip------- > Does anybody else here appreciate old Fluke gear? Certainly do. I have an 803B here I use fairly often. DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 13/01/2006 From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Jan 14 13:12:30 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:07:30 -5 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: References: <20060114014421.WMQG15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jan 13, 6 09:37:24 pm Message-ID: <20060114231428.MCTJ15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > > But I never suggested a KVM switch in response to anything you posted! > Are you seriously suggesting that the rest of us can't join in to other > discussions? If you refuse to take the time to read what the discussion is about, then that might not be a bad idea. > Sure, and in a lot of cases that's a perfectly reasonable solution. It > doesn't work foe all of us. Yeah, but it might work in the case that was being discussed. > > Is there a new rule in cctalk that responses to specific questions/problems must > > now be applicable to every possible machine that someone on the list uses? If > > so, I think this is going to severely limit the suggestions we can offer. > > Well, only if you don't want some of us pointing out it doesn't work in > _all_ cases. Unbelievable - did you even notice the work "specific" in the above? Once again I find that the hostility level in cctalk exceeds it's value to me. buy guys -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From Useddec at aol.com Sat Jan 14 18:05:22 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:05:22 EST Subject: KM11 replica Message-ID: <2e5.95d4d9.30faebc2@aol.com> I have one or two of these around here. I don't know which overlays I have, but if you need any of the info on them, I'll try to dig them up. Thanks, Paul From allain at panix.com Sat Jan 14 18:23:00 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:23:00 -0500 Subject: Looking for DSSI ISE disk References: <200601140004.k0E04bm6012864@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <029501c61969$d889ae40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> If I'm not mistaken, ISE (=Integrated Storage Element) for DSSI just means "disk", and it may be cabled internally, IE with ribbon. There are ID selectors that go on the disk _housings_, but they may be skipped and overridden with an on-disk jumper block, at least with most RF series. Any DSSI disk should work The RF31 starts at under 400MB, the RF74 ends at under 4G. DSSI disks are getting rare, but are still do-able on eBay. I've got some too. Good Luck, John A. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sat Jan 14 19:14:06 2006 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 20:14:06 -0500 Subject: AC power on front panels In-Reply-To: <20060114052045.54695.qmail@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Another piece of bad design is the bare metal fuse > clip that is so close to the edge of the power supply > PC board that I would be concerned about the possibility > of contact with the case cover, e.g., if the case was > sufficiently deformed. A good solution to this, that was told to me by a man who assembled new IMSAIs "back in the day", is to use the bottom 3/4 inch of a Tic-Tac candy box. You get the fuse covered in plastic but can still see it. It fits tight and will stay in place. He did this on all of the units he built (and he said he built a lot), so if you happen to come across a unit set up like that, he may well have built it. From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Jan 14 19:23:58 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 20:23:58 -0500 Subject: Stupid Mac Ethernet question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 14 Jan 2006 18:10:28 EST." <001601c6195f$b5d68440$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <200601150123.k0F1NwF1029068@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > > The strangest thing happened to my Mac IIci - the Ethernet >connection no longer works. I may be way off base, but I've have some odd troubles over the years with older 10-baseT interfaces and some "switches". Usually these switches claim to be some sort of 10/100 hub. I suspect the real problem is that one side or the other is not properly advertising as per the x-baseT specification and the negotiation fails. But it doesn't really matter to you or I when we need to get the link light lit. My solution is to find a plain old 10-baseT only hub (hard to find these days) and connect it in-between the older device and the newer hub. This fixed the problem for me. I don't know why. (I actually suspect the hub - I'd be curious what 10/100 hub you are using - some chipsets are not quite compliant in my not-so-humble opinion). I'd be curious to hear how this resolves. -brad From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jan 14 19:36:45 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 20:36:45 -0500 Subject: Stupid Mac Ethernet question In-Reply-To: <200601150123.k0F1NwF1029068@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <001f01c61974$2577d970$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> After some experimentation, I at least got it partially fixed it. I connected the old switching hub (has 100TX MDX port for the "backbone") which I connected to the new switch. Then, I connected the Mac to one of the hub ports -- pretty much the way it was before the upgrade. Now, I can see the UAM volume on the NT Server (and the AppleTalk zone) but I still can't get across the gateway and out to the Internet -- it claims that it can't find a DNS server (I have it pointing to an internal server on the same subnet). -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Parker Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 8:24 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Stupid Mac Ethernet question "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > > The strangest thing happened to my Mac IIci - the Ethernet >connection no longer works. I may be way off base, but I've have some odd troubles over the years with older 10-baseT interfaces and some "switches". Usually these switches claim to be some sort of 10/100 hub. I suspect the real problem is that one side or the other is not properly advertising as per the x-baseT specification and the negotiation fails. But it doesn't really matter to you or I when we need to get the link light lit. My solution is to find a plain old 10-baseT only hub (hard to find these days) and connect it in-between the older device and the newer hub. This fixed the problem for me. I don't know why. (I actually suspect the hub - I'd be curious what 10/100 hub you are using - some chipsets are not quite compliant in my not-so-humble opinion). I'd be curious to hear how this resolves. -brad From jrice54 at blackcube.org Sat Jan 14 19:46:49 2006 From: jrice54 at blackcube.org (James Rice) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:46:49 -0600 Subject: Stupid Mac Ethernet question In-Reply-To: <001601c6195f$b5d68440$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <001601c6195f$b5d68440$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <43C9A989.6000404@blackcube.org> Richard A. Cini wrote: > > The strangest thing happened to my Mac IIci - the Ethernet >connection no longer works. I don't even get a link light on the new switch >(a Cisco/Linksys switch). However, when I plug the Mac into a plain old 10BT >hub and then uplink it to the switch, I at least get a link light. > > >Nothing else works, though. The router doesn't show the Mac obtaining an IP >address, and the ci doesn't see the AppleTalk zone that's on my NT Server >box. In the previous configuration, everything went through a 24-port hub. > > > A lot of older equipment won't auto-negotiate with newer "switches". In my recent experience, Linksys is one of the worst offenders. This is exactly why I keep a pair of 3Com 24 port 10BT hubs in my network. I've recently picked up some 24 port Netgear 10BT hubs on ebay for under $10 each. They also work well with older Macs, Sgi's, NeXT's that don't seem to get along with a lot of the cheaper, newer switches and routers. James -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Sat Jan 14 20:03:32 2006 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 20:03:32 -0600 Subject: Stupid Mac Ethernet question In-Reply-To: <001f01c61974$2577d970$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <001f01c61974$2577d970$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <43C9AD74.90300@vzavenue.net> I work for a medical software company. The software we sell and support replaces the TCP/IP transport layer with a proprietary layer that uses a random, non-standard length, encrypted UDP packet. It's non-routable but works fine in a local environment. Bad software design I know, but I didn't write it, I just have to support it. It works really good except when a Linksys switch or router is involved. Ninety percent of my customer's network performance problems go away when I pull the Linksys gear and replace it with Netgear, D-Link, 3Com, AOpen or generic no-name crap. No problems with any other brand, just Linksys. I think the Linksys chipset or firmware is so rigidly designed that anything out of the M$ ordinary world causes it to barf and lockup. -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From drb at msu.edu Sat Jan 14 20:02:28 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 21:02:28 -0500 Subject: Looking for DSSI ISE disk In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:23:00 EST.) <029501c61969$d889ae40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <029501c61969$d889ae40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <200601140004.k0E04bm6012864@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200601150202.k0F22SLE013515@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > If I'm not mistaken, ISE (=Integrated Storage Element) for DSSI > just means "disk", and it may be cabled internally, IE with ribbon. > There are ID selectors that go on the disk _housings_, but they may > be skipped and overridden with an on-disk jumper block, at least > with most RF series. Any DSSI disk should work The RF31 starts at > under 400MB, the RF74 ends at under 4G. DSSI disks are getting rare, > but are still do-able on eBay. I've got some too. This mass storage bay of this cabinet has a backplane full of somewhat centronics-like connectors. The carriers can hold one 5.25" full height drive, or a pair of 3.5" drives, and have extrusions to hold them into the card slots in the bay. They also have the ID plug sockets in the front of them, as you describe. If I can find the carriers, it'd be nice: lots neater, less tracking down of cables and reengineering the inside of the cabinet. De From tpeters at mixcom.com Sat Jan 14 20:39:35 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 20:39:35 -0600 Subject: looking for RX01 device IOTs for the PDP8/e In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2608@OVL-EXBE01.oceven lo.oce.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060114202832.00be1ca0@localhost> I have the PDP-8e Intro to Programming (1970). I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for. If you think it's in there, I'd be happy to look for you. However, all I see here are IOTs for TU58, drum disks, scopes, recording voltmeters, TTY's, and etc. Nothing that explicitly says RX01. At 10:55 AM 1/13/2006 +0100, you wrote: >Great! Thanks Vince. >IIRC, I have also gotten the IOTs for the RF08 from Dough's >site, (and the 'tricky' ones like GTF and RTF), but somehow >I did not see this RX01 page! >I have printed those pages already to study them! > >- Henk, PA8PDP. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of vrs > > Sent: vrijdag 13 januari 2006 10:40 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: looking for RX01 device IOTs for the PDP8/e > > > > From: "Gooijen, Henk" > > > Can anybody point me to where I can get the pdp8 RX01 IOT > > descriptions? > > > > Here's a place that I have used > > > > http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/man/rx01.html > > > > It is easier (and harder) than you expect because the > > interface is to the bit-slice micro-controller in the drive, > > rather than to the bare drive electronics. > > > > Vince > >This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the >addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or >otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. >If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for >delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified >that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is >strictly prohibited. >If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender >immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. >Thank you for your cooperation. [Government]I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --Will Rogers --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Jan 14 21:14:32 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 22:14:32 -0500 Subject: Looking for DSSI ISE disk In-Reply-To: <200601150202.k0F22SLE013515@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200601140004.k0E04bm6012864@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <029501c61969$d889ae40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <200601150202.k0F22SLE013515@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 1/14/06, Dennis Boone wrote: > > This mass storage bay of this cabinet has a backplane full of somewhat > centronics-like connectors. The carriers can hold one 5.25" full > height drive, or a pair of 3.5" drives, and have extrusions to hold > them into the card slots in the bay. They also have the ID plug > sockets in the front of them, as you describe. I heard from somebody (might be Ethan Dicks) that you if you had SCSI controllers, you could make some small changes to the wiring and then install SCSI disks in those bays. The connectors have 50 pins -- same as those used with SCSI disks. vax, 9000 > > If I can find the carriers, it'd be nice: lots neater, less tracking > down of cables and reengineering the inside of the cabinet. > > De > From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jan 14 22:20:05 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 22:20:05 -0600 Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20060112093215.02288f38@mail.saccade.com> References: <5.1.1.5.2.20060112093215.02288f38@mail.saccade.com> Message-ID: <43C9CD75.7090102@oldskool.org> J. Peterson wrote: > > I've had great luck with BasiliskII running on Windows. Even funky > older 68K programs work (like my own "Wallpaper for the Mind", that > compiles code and jumps to it on the fly). But how can we transfer copy-protected programs over to something the emulator can load? I've got some music programs (Studio Session, Jam Session) and games and other apps I'd love to introduce to the children, but I don't want them handling the disks directly because the copy-protected retail diskettes are the only ones I have. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jan 14 22:34:43 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 20:34:43 -0800 Subject: Stupid Mac Ethernet question In-Reply-To: <43C9A989.6000404@blackcube.org> References: <001601c6195f$b5d68440$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <43C9A989.6000404@blackcube.org> Message-ID: At 7:46 PM -0600 1/14/06, James Rice wrote: >A lot of older equipment won't auto-negotiate with newer "switches". >In my recent experience, Linksys is one of the worst offenders. >This is exactly why I keep a pair of 3Com 24 port 10BT hubs in my >network. I've recently picked up some 24 port Netgear 10BT hubs on >ebay for under $10 each. They also work well with older Macs, >Sgi's, NeXT's that don't seem to get along with a lot of the >cheaper, newer switches and routers. I've got a newer Linksys 16-port 10/100 switch (purchased in the last year or so). So far I've had pretty good luck with it. I've got a VAXstation 4000/vlc and a PDP-11/73 connected to it, and if it can handle running DECnet/E through it, then it's pretty good in my book. It also has an *old* Asante Ethertalk to Localtalk converter box connected. I think the 10/100 hub the switch replaced was a Linksys, and it wouldn't work right with DECnet/E, but then I replaced it when I realized how bad of performance I was getting transferring a few GB of data via 100Mbit, there was just plain something wrong with the Hub. I do like keeping an older 10Mbit hub around with a 10Base-2 port on it (even though I do own a 10Base-2 to 10Base-T converter box, as I've got a DECserver 90L+ and an Amiga 3000 that require 10Base-2. I had a really nice 8-port 10/100 Netgear switch, but the ports quickly started dying. Plus the 8-port 10/100 Linksys hub had some dead ports as I recall, and I had a 24-port Intel 10/100 switch with a lot of dead ports, that finally gave out on me. All in all, I don't have a lot of faith in hubs or switches lasting very long. So I'm personally inclined to attribute such problems to switches that are going bad, than Linksys switches not working well with older hardware. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From hachti at hachti.de Sat Jan 14 23:10:10 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 06:10:10 +0100 Subject: Unknown Honeywell tape drive - Full disclosure! In-Reply-To: References: <43C2CF04.20006@hachti.de> <14255.217.10.50.85.1136898872.squirrel@webmail.hachti.de> Message-ID: <43C9D932.8070005@hachti.de> Hi folks! Today I have visited the place where I will get the tape drive from. I could not yet get my fingers on the tape (because no key was avaliable on weekend) but I found the full documentation. It ist a Honeywell 4120 Magnetic Tape Drive Some Info: * Date of purchase approx. april 1970 * From the manual: "... is a Very Low Cost (VLC)" :-) * 1/2-inch seven channel * Tape reel size "IBM compatible" * 15 inch/s * 200 bpi and 556 bpi resolution <-- !!! * weight: 400 lb... uff..... The drive is designed for the Honeywell Series 16 computers. A controller for the CPU is needed. Today I also found the complete controller...! The controller's new price was DM 53,000, the H316 computer with 4K only ca. DM 40,000, about $10,000 at that time.... Good night, best wishes, Philipp P.S.: If anyone can tell me more about the drive and controller I would be glad. I'm still missing the software, software manuals and documentation for the controller (schematic, wirelist, explanation etc). From ddl-cctech at danlan.com Sat Jan 14 23:35:14 2006 From: ddl-cctech at danlan.com (Dan Lanciani) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 00:35:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: SunOS 68010 (Sun 1/2) distribution tapes Message-ID: <200601150535.AAA00466@ss10.danlan.com> I have a number or original 68010 SunOS distribution tapes: 1.1 2.0 (tapes 1 and 2 of 3 only) 3.0 3.2 3.4 upgrade I will probably (if I have not already) archive the contents but does anyone want the media? If not I'm going to dump it. Dan Lanciani ddl at danlan.*com From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Jan 14 23:35:34 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 00:35:34 -0500 Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <43C9CD75.7090102@oldskool.org> References: <5.1.1.5.2.20060112093215.02288f38@mail.saccade.com> <43C9CD75.7090102@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20060115003534.01ccd941.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 22:20:05 -0600 Jim Leonard wrote: > J. Peterson wrote: > > > > I've had great luck with BasiliskII running on Windows. Even funky > > older 68K programs work (like my own "Wallpaper for the Mind", that > > compiles code and jumps to it on the fly). > > But how can we transfer copy-protected programs over to something the > emulator can load? I've got some music programs (Studio Session, Jam > Session) and games and other apps I'd love to introduce to the children, > but I don't want them handling the disks directly because the > copy-protected retail diskettes are the only ones I have. The emulator can load and read floppy diskettes. Probably only HD ones, but it uses the native drives on the machine. I installed it on my machine (multiple times, on several drive images) by having BasiliskII boot from a MacOS 7.5.3 install CD. That doesn't solve your problem of copy protected original diskettes, but it's no different than a real Mac in that regard. You can virtualize the diskettes into images that it reads, and might have better luck doing that than through any 'scheme' to defeat the copy protection, (if imaging software would properly image the diskette, copy protection and all.) You'd have to try it, but the classic Unix 'dd' command method might work to copy the diskettes to image files (if you're running a Unix version of BasiliskII. I haven't tried that yet. I am running the emulator on 'image' hard drives that I define in the config file. I booted from CD, MacOS asked me to initialize the image files I had declared (I have used 50 meg, and 1200 meg image files thus far,) and then I installed MacOS on them as if they were real hard drives. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From oldcomp at cox.net Sat Jan 14 23:45:58 2006 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan K. Blackburn) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 22:45:58 -0700 Subject: Stupid Mac Ethernet question In-Reply-To: <001601c6195f$b5d68440$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <001601c6195f$b5d68440$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <43C9E196.5020305@cox.net> The simplest solution should not be overlooked... are you positive that that cables are wired correctly? Straight through / crossover, + to +, etc.? I see this once in a while. (Also - Some routers can tolerate reversed connections, others cannot.) -Bryan Richard A. Cini wrote: > > The strangest thing happened to my Mac IIci - the Ethernet > connection no longer works. I don't even get a link light on the new switch > (a Cisco/Linksys switch). However, when I plug the Mac into a plain old 10BT > hub and then uplink it to the switch, I at least get a link light. > From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Jan 14 23:47:01 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 00:47:01 -0500 Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <20060115003534.01ccd941.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <5.1.1.5.2.20060112093215.02288f38@mail.saccade.com> <43C9CD75.7090102@oldskool.org> <20060115003534.01ccd941.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20060115004701.50aeba02.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 00:35:34 -0500 Scott Stevens wrote: > On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 22:20:05 -0600 > Jim Leonard wrote: > > > J. Peterson wrote: > > > > > > I've had great luck with BasiliskII running on Windows. Even funky > > > older 68K programs work (like my own "Wallpaper for the Mind", that > > > compiles code and jumps to it on the fly). > > > > But how can we transfer copy-protected programs over to something the > > emulator can load? I've got some music programs (Studio Session, Jam > > Session) and games and other apps I'd love to introduce to the children, > > but I don't want them handling the disks directly because the > > copy-protected retail diskettes are the only ones I have. > > The emulator can load and read floppy diskettes. Probably only > HD ones, but it uses the native drives on the machine. I > installed it on my machine (multiple times, on several drive > images) by having BasiliskII boot from a MacOS 7.5.3 install CD. > > That doesn't solve your problem of copy protected original > diskettes, but it's no different than a real Mac in that regard. > You can virtualize the diskettes into images that it reads, and > might have better luck doing that than through any 'scheme' to > defeat the copy protection, (if imaging software would properly > image the diskette, copy protection and all.) You'd have to try > it, but the classic Unix 'dd' command method might work to copy > the diskettes to image files (if you're running a Unix version of > BasiliskII. I haven't tried that yet. I am running the emulator > on 'image' hard drives that I define in the config file. I > booted from CD, MacOS asked me to initialize the image files I > had declared (I have used 50 meg, and 1200 meg image files thus > far,) and then I installed MacOS on them as if they were real > hard drives. > I just verified that BasiliskII will run and access images of floppy diskettes. I didn't use the Unix DD command to make the image, I used the Winimage program on my Windows2000 machine to image a MacOS formatted floppy and saved it to an IMA file, then scp'd it over to NetBSD and added a line declaring the file as a disk in .basilisk_ii_prefs and it mounted the image. This proves something useful to me: the Winimage program (and dd on Unix, which does the same thing) can make images of MacOS floppies which can then easily be read into the Mac universe through BasiliskII. I can probably run Shrinkwrap or Apples Disk Copy utility to convert the 'images' to ShrinkWrap or DiskCopy images any Mac can use. Note that if you make your images using Winimage, it won't show a directory after making the image, since Winimage only recognizes FAT directories. But the image file you then 'blindly' save works on BasiliskII. > > > -- > > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > > Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ > > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From news at computercollector.com Sun Jan 15 00:19:04 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 01:19:04 -0500 Subject: OT: html/php help? Message-ID: <000001c6199b$963a0d50$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Sorry to intrude with an OT question again. It's currently 1:15 AM EST -- is anyone out there awake and willing to help me debug a web page glitch? I've got free long-distance on my cell phone so some live support would be great. (I'm probably just doing something stupid on my page and overlooking it...) Please reply off-list -- thanks! ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From news at computercollector.com Sun Jan 15 00:51:56 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 01:51:56 -0500 Subject: Disregard -- RE: html/php help? In-Reply-To: <000001c6199b$963a0d50$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <000d01c619a0$2d90bd80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Problem solved. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:19 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: OT: html/php help? Importance: High Sorry to intrude with an OT question again. It's currently 1:15 AM EST -- is anyone out there awake and willing to help me debug a web page glitch? I've got free long-distance on my cell phone so some live support would be great. (I'm probably just doing something stupid on my page and overlooking it...) Please reply off-list -- thanks! ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From jdbryan at acm.org Sun Jan 15 01:03:42 2006 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 02:03:42 -0500 Subject: HP 1000 interface identification In-Reply-To: <43C6DC21.1060005@hachti.de> Message-ID: <200601150703.k0F73j4n002858@mail.bcpl.net> On 12 Jan 2006 at 23:45, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > does anybody know anything about this HP1000,21MX etc. card: > > Part No. 12665-60011, labeled "serial interface" Page 5-10 of: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/5953-4259_commProds_Jul80.pdf ...describes the HP 12771A Serial Interface kit (for DS/1000 networking) that contains the 12665 card. -- Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 15 01:33:33 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 23:33:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: SunOS tapes Message-ID: <20060115073333.101D9195FC5@bitsavers.org> > ??http://www.pdpplanet.com/TemplateMain.aspx?contentId=7\ I would like to archive them, if they're still available. From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jan 15 03:57:43 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 03:57:43 -0600 Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <20060115003534.01ccd941.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <5.1.1.5.2.20060112093215.02288f38@mail.saccade.com> <43C9CD75.7090102@oldskool.org> <20060115003534.01ccd941.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43CA1C97.4@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > The emulator can load and read floppy diskettes. Not 800K ones, only 1.44MB. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Jan 15 03:57:07 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 10:57:07 +0100 Subject: looking for RX01 device IOTs for the PDP8/e Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22A7@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi Tom, I did not check my copy of "Intro to Programming", because on an earlier search for a detailed description of the IOTs for a specific device (how it works and interacts with the pdp8), I remembered that the RX01 was not among them. I do have the description of the RK05 IOTs, but that is to big (capacity-wise) for a floppy disk. Perhaps I will someday have a go at it to simulate RK05 with a 100 Mb ZIP drive ... :-) Meanwhile, the link that Vince posted got me started: including the (standard a lot of) comment lines, the "#defines" and memory allocation, I have all IOTs coded in some 800 lines 6809 assembler. I guess that max 200 lines more will make it complete to put the RX01 in the simulator. As I did the DS32 and the RF08 simulation already, I have some experience in how to go about, and with the help of Vince, debugging was not too complicated (the interrupt mechanism got me puzzled for a while). thanks, - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Tom Peters Verzonden: zo 15-01-2006 03:39 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: RE: looking for RX01 device IOTs for the PDP8/e I have the PDP-8e Intro to Programming (1970). I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for. If you think it's in there, I'd be happy to look for you. However, all I see here are IOTs for TU58, drum disks, scopes, recording voltmeters, TTY's, and etc. Nothing that explicitly says RX01. At 10:55 AM 1/13/2006 +0100, you wrote: >Great! Thanks Vince. >IIRC, I have also gotten the IOTs for the RF08 from Dough's >site, (and the 'tricky' ones like GTF and RTF), but somehow >I did not see this RX01 page! >I have printed those pages already to study them! > >- Henk, PA8PDP. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of vrs > > Sent: vrijdag 13 januari 2006 10:40 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: looking for RX01 device IOTs for the PDP8/e > > > > From: "Gooijen, Henk" > > > Can anybody point me to where I can get the pdp8 RX01 IOT > > descriptions? > > > > Here's a place that I have used > > > > http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/man/rx01.html > > > > It is easier (and harder) than you expect because the > > interface is to the bit-slice micro-controller in the drive, > > rather than to the bare drive electronics. > > > > Vince This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. = Thank you for your cooperation. From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jan 15 03:58:34 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 03:58:34 -0600 Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <20060115004701.50aeba02.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <5.1.1.5.2.20060112093215.02288f38@mail.saccade.com> <43C9CD75.7090102@oldskool.org> <20060115003534.01ccd941.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20060115004701.50aeba02.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43CA1CCA.6090105@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > image, I used the Winimage program on my Windows2000 machine to When you get 400K and 800K disks to read, let me know ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Jan 15 04:20:22 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 10:20:22 -0000 (GMT) Subject: AC power on front panels In-Reply-To: References: <5813.195.212.29.92.1137236953.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> from "gordonjcp@gjcp.net" at Jan 14, 6 11:09:13 am Message-ID: <13854.195.212.29.75.1137320422.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > So? DEC did that in their power controllers. I am quite sure you have > plenty of trnasformers powered all the time anyway -- the doorbell, the > clock/timer in the cooker/microwave oven, the VCR, ATX PSUs, etc.... OK, > some of those are SMPSUs running in standby mode, but the point is that > there's plenty of circuity energised all the time. Not really - I make a point of avoiding things that draw power when they're not in use. I want to keep as much stuff as I can when I move back up north, and the house there is going to be off-grid. Gordon. From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Jan 15 04:25:35 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 11:25:35 +0100 Subject: KM11 replica In-Reply-To: References: <1137119060.8498.31.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <43CA231F.9030100@update.uu.se> Frank Arnold wrote: > Guy Sotomayor schreef op 12.01.2006: > >>Hi, >> >>I just received my production version of the KM11 maintenance boards. >>Both will include a parts list and assembly instructions > > What about the trasparent overlays that give the leds their function? > Does the board offer provisions to attach those? > > What devices used this KM11? I am aware of 11/05,10,35 and 40 and the RK05. > Any other devices? The 11/45,50,55,70 all use the KM11 for debugging the CPU as well. You can singlestep the microcode with the KM11, including the FPP (might only be the FPP11C though). Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jan 15 09:28:43 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 10:28:43 -0500 Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <43CA1CCA.6090105@oldskool.org> References: <5.1.1.5.2.20060112093215.02288f38@mail.saccade.com> <43C9CD75.7090102@oldskool.org> <20060115003534.01ccd941.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20060115004701.50aeba02.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43CA1CCA.6090105@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20060115102843.2979934f.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 03:58:34 -0600 Jim Leonard wrote: > Scott Stevens wrote: > > image, I used the Winimage program on my Windows2000 machine to > > When you get 400K and 800K disks to read, let me know ;-) I read 800K disks onto my Powerbook 165c, using Shrinkwrap. The image file fits on a HD floppy with a copy of the Shrinkwrap program, then I read the HD floppy with Winimage to archive it and to move it over to BasiliskII as the HD image. No way to directly read the 800K image except on a Mac. Then you mount the HD image, and mount the 800K image on it using Shrinkwrap. There is no barrier whatsoever to getting the data and programs from 800K disks to the emulator, so long as you have a real Mac somewhere. And no problem with 400K disks as long as you have a drive on a real Mac that will read them and also write at least 800K disks. There's also no barrier to archiving them onto big backup volumes as long as you have Shrinkwrap. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jan 15 12:11:21 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 18:11:21 GMT Subject: Stupid Mac Ethernet question In-Reply-To: "Richard A. Cini" "Stupid Mac Ethernet question" (Jan 14, 18:10) References: <001601c6195f$b5d68440$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <10601151811.ZM24989@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 14 2006, 18:10, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I just recently upgraded the network cabling in my house to 5e > as part of some new construction, and I also upgraded the networking > components. Now, all of my normal machines run at 100 full duplex. Anyway. > The strangest thing happened to my Mac IIci - the Ethernet > connection no longer works. I don't even get a link light on the new switch > (a Cisco/Linksys switch). However, when I plug the Mac into a plain old 10BT > hub and then uplink it to the switch, I at least get a link light. > Does this problem resonate with anyone? Yes, it does. Check that the cable that came with the Mac is a straight-through Ethernet Cat 5 cable, not a crossover (pins 1+2 at one connected to pins 3+6 at the other; ie the orange and green pairs). It could also be an autonegotiation (speed/duplex) problem, but I'd check the cable anyway, becasue that's usually easy to do by eye. Sometimes Macs have been supplied with crossover cables which work fine on devices that have ports which autodetect crossover -- some hubs and switches do this to make interconnections easier. I once was on the receiving end of a rant from a visitor who had a crossover cable, though neither of us realised it immediately. I tested the socket, which was live and my Fluke OneTouch got a link and a DHCP lease. I connected it to his Mac; that showed a link. I tested his cable, which showed as a crossover. I told him that was the problem. Not withstanding the "Wiremap Error" displayed on the OneTouch, he insisted it was our network at fault, and "of course" his cable was the right type "because it works at home". I gave him a brand-new patch cable sealed in a polythene bag and left him to get over it. BTW, there is no colour code convention for patch cables, but we like to use a local system that helps to prevent most accidents and puzzlements: grey is temporary, purple is crossover, black is serial, and pink ("barbie-net") is telephony. Anything else is "Just Ethernet". It might be wise to adopt some similar convention, at least to distinguish crossover cables. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Jan 15 13:15:29 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 14:15:29 -0500 Subject: Stupid Mac Ethernet question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 14 Jan 2006 20:03:32 CST." <43C9AD74.90300@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <200601151915.k0FJFTKB013282@mwave.heeltoe.com> James Rice wrote: >I work for a medical software company. The software we sell and support >replaces the TCP/IP transport layer with a proprietary layer that uses >a random, non-standard length, encrypted UDP packet. It's non-routable >but works fine in a local environment. Bad software design I know, but >I didn't write it, I just have to support it. It works really good >except when a Linksys switch or router is involved. I hate to be a pest, but the phrase "a random, non-standard length, encrypted UDP packet" doesn't make sense to me. You can't have a "non-standard length" UDP packet. If it's a UDP packet when it's got a length. And if it's a UDP packet inside a valid IP packet it can't be "non routeable". And I can't envision a way to create a UDP/IP packet that would in any way have a problem with a hub. Now, if in fact you're using the mac layer in some non-standard way, or creating invalid IP or UDP packets then ok. But if they the encapsulation is valid and the IP and UDP headers are valid there's virtually no way you could be effected by the hub. (the one exception might be dropped packets - which your protocol might be sensative to) >Ninety percent of >my customer's network performance problems go away when I pull the >Linksys gear and replace it with Netgear, D-Link, 3Com, AOpen or generic >no-name crap. I suspect you've got ethernet chip/phy issues, not network layer issues. I've done a lot of work with 10/100/1000 phy's and it's never been the contents of the packets which caused a problem. I've seen a lot of negotiation problems, flow control problems and pci bus interaction problems but it was never due to packet content. me, i'm allergic to voodoo. best to find the real cause and fix it. -brad From rcini at optonline.net Sun Jan 15 13:21:50 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 14:21:50 -0500 Subject: Stupid Mac Ethernet question In-Reply-To: <10601151811.ZM24989@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <004e01c61a08$efbba330$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Talking about color coding, I do something similar with my structured wiring. In-wall is blue, green or gray depending on grade (5e, 5, and telephone, respectively). From the router to the firewall is red. The firewall to the switch is green. Workstations use yellow patch cables. Servers use blue. Black is a temporary connection. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:11 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Stupid Mac Ethernet question On Jan 14 2006, 18:10, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I just recently upgraded the network cabling in my house to 5e > as part of some new construction, and I also upgraded the networking > components. Now, all of my normal machines run at 100 full duplex. Anyway. > The strangest thing happened to my Mac IIci - the Ethernet > connection no longer works. I don't even get a link light on the new switch > (a Cisco/Linksys switch). However, when I plug the Mac into a plain old 10BT > hub and then uplink it to the switch, I at least get a link light. > Does this problem resonate with anyone? Yes, it does. Check that the cable that came with the Mac is a straight-through Ethernet Cat 5 cable, not a crossover (pins 1+2 at one connected to pins 3+6 at the other; ie the orange and green pairs). It could also be an autonegotiation (speed/duplex) problem, but I'd check the cable anyway, becasue that's usually easy to do by eye. Sometimes Macs have been supplied with crossover cables which work fine on devices that have ports which autodetect crossover -- some hubs and switches do this to make interconnections easier. I once was on the receiving end of a rant from a visitor who had a crossover cable, though neither of us realised it immediately. I tested the socket, which was live and my Fluke OneTouch got a link and a DHCP lease. I connected it to his Mac; that showed a link. I tested his cable, which showed as a crossover. I told him that was the problem. Not withstanding the "Wiremap Error" displayed on the OneTouch, he insisted it was our network at fault, and "of course" his cable was the right type "because it works at home". I gave him a brand-new patch cable sealed in a polythene bag and left him to get over it. BTW, there is no colour code convention for patch cables, but we like to use a local system that helps to prevent most accidents and puzzlements: grey is temporary, purple is crossover, black is serial, and pink ("barbie-net") is telephony. Anything else is "Just Ethernet". It might be wise to adopt some similar convention, at least to distinguish crossover cables. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jan 15 13:33:54 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:33:54 -0600 Subject: Stupid Mac Ethernet question In-Reply-To: <43C9AD74.90300@vzavenue.net> References: <001f01c61974$2577d970$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <43C9AD74.90300@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060115132505.054190a0@mail> At 08:03 PM 1/14/2006, you wrote: > I think the Linksys chipset or firmware is so rigidly designed that anything out of the M$ ordinary world causes it to barf and lockup. Well, I've seen several brands of switches fail to recognize not-that-old hardware made for the Windows market, too. There's at least two types of auto-negotiation going on here, right - full or half duplex as well as auto-cross-over detection. No doubt in an effort to make Ethernet more plug-and-play and less prone to tech support calls, I see more and more consumer devices performing auto-crossover without that being a large bullet-point on the outside of the box. Another variable is how contemporary equipment responds to long lengths of Ethernet. Lengths still within the spec, but apparently not within the range designed or tested by the manufacturers. If it worked with a 25-foot hank on the test bench, they ship it. When I try it with a 100-foot run, it doesn't recognize it. Above the physical layer, there's plenty of goofiness in level 2, too. Wireless "bridge" devices these days are performing all sorts of MAC spoofing that'll throw you for a loop. - John From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 15 13:40:50 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 11:40:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Unknown Honeywell tape drive - Full disclosure! Message-ID: <20060115194050.718A219624D@bitsavers.org> > * 200 bpi and 556 bpi resolution <-- !!! therefore, 7 tracks (800bpi is the lowest density 9-track) From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jan 15 14:20:05 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 14:20:05 -0600 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <20060110185247.T97618@shell.lmi.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110012030.03949770@mail.30below.com> <200601101539.k0AFdWAD002093@mail1.magma.ca> <000801c61601$32fc4610$2101a8c0@finans> <20060110185247.T97618@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060115141942.054c4750@mail> At 08:56 PM 1/10/2006, Fred Cisin wrote: >There's nothing in the Compaticard that would need reverse engineering. >Allison could probably design the same thing; CORRECTION: BETTER; >in less time than it takes me to type this. Last one on eBay went for $60: 8747653996 . - John From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 15 15:42:33 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:42:33 -0800 Subject: Unknown Honeywell tape drive - Full disclosure! References: <43C2CF04.20006@hachti.de> <14255.217.10.50.85.1136898872.squirrel@webmail.hachti.de> <43C9D932.8070005@hachti.de> Message-ID: <43CAC1C9.2FB0FBEF@cs.ubc.ca> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > It ist a Honeywell 4120 Magnetic Tape Drive > * 1/2-inch seven channel Ah hah, matches the heads from the one my friend dismantled, > * Date of purchase approx. april 1970 interesting.. getting kind of late for 7 channel, > * weight: 400 lb... uff..... .. that too matches up with what my friend reported :/ > Today I also found the complete controller...! If you're going to try to interface it to something more modern I wonder if you'd be better off skipping the controller and working directly with the drive... From hachti at hachti.de Sun Jan 15 16:03:35 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 23:03:35 +0100 Subject: Unknown Honeywell tape drive - Full disclosure! In-Reply-To: <43CAC1C9.2FB0FBEF@cs.ubc.ca> References: <43C2CF04.20006@hachti.de> <14255.217.10.50.85.1136898872.squirrel@webmail.hachti.de> <43C9D932.8070005@hachti.de> <43CAC1C9.2FB0FBEF@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <43CAC6B7.50102@hachti.de> Hello, >>* 1/2-inch seven channel > > Ah hah, matches the heads from the one my friend dismantled, Oh, same model? Spares??? > >>* Date of purchase approx. april 1970 > interesting.. getting kind of late for 7 channel, I am not sure! Will know more in a few days. >>Today I also found the complete controller...! > > If you're going to try to interface it to something more modern I wonder if > you'd be better off skipping the controller and working directly with the drive... Perhaps. But I *won't* interface it to "something more modern". The controller is built into a 1969 Honeywell H316 chassis, I want to use it its original context :-) Regards, Philipp :-) From hachti at hachti.de Sun Jan 15 16:04:26 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 23:04:26 +0100 Subject: Unknown Honeywell tape drive - Full disclosure! In-Reply-To: <20060115194050.718A219624D@bitsavers.org> References: <20060115194050.718A219624D@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <43CAC6EA.6080103@hachti.de> Hi, > therefore, 7 tracks (800bpi is the lowest density 9-track) I had written that it's seven track. But good to know that nine track starts at 800bpi. Regards, Philipp From cswiger at widomaker.com Sun Jan 15 16:17:18 2006 From: cswiger at widomaker.com (Chuck Swiger) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:17:18 -0500 Subject: seeking SGI Indigo2 Impact power supply Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20060115170641.00ba62d8@wilma.widomaker.com> All - My SGI workstation (which I use to create stuff in Blender, altho the rendering is done elsewhere for speed ;) just emitted the smoke of life from it's power supply. I'm looking for SGI P/N 060-8002 or the stronger 060-0027 (Zytec p/n 22928805). The only sources I could find with Google are 1) out of stock or, 2) $700. TIA --Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Jan 15 16:19:06 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:19:06 -0600 Subject: looking for DSSI ISE disk Message-ID: The ISE is needed to mount the DSSI disk. VAX 4ks in the BA4(30/40) have a sled arrangement with a card edge connector bringing out power and DSSI. I've been looking for one for a while, and most of the E-Bay DSSI drives are stripped from the sleds (don't know why, I guess earlier MicroVAXen didn't use the sleds). The KZQSA will work in a pinch provided that you want to run VMS, none of the xBSDs offer support for it (ULTRIX doesn't even work well with it) Performance will likely leave something to be desired. I've seen docs for a HSD that mounts in the BA4x0 and allows for SCSI in the upper bay, but have not seen one in the flesh. I'm currently looking to wire a HSD05-AA SBB in mine, but it still looks like I need a sled or two for mechanical connections :(. From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun Jan 15 16:32:49 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:32:49 -0500 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601151732.49943.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Saturday 14 January 2006 05:30 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > Is there a new rule in cctalk that responses to specific > > questions/problems must now be applicable to every possible machine that > > someone on the list uses? If so, I think this is going to severely limit > > the suggestions we can offer. > > Well, only if you don't want some of us pointing out it doesn't work in > _all_ cases. Contentious bastard, ain't ya? :-( -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun Jan 15 16:33:34 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:33:34 -0500 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <20060114231428.MCTJ15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060114014421.WMQG15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060114231428.MCTJ15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200601151733.34256.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Saturday 14 January 2006 02:12 pm, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Unbelievable - did you even notice the work "specific" in the above? > > Once again I find that the hostility level in cctalk exceeds it's value to > me. buy guys May I suggest a simple filter, starting with _one_ name in it that seems to be a particular source of irritation? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Jan 15 16:56:50 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 22:56:50 +0000 Subject: More Ebay madness Message-ID: <26c11a640601151456j7210db71s@mail.gmail.com> An Amiga 4000 for ?1400 8750494707 An RD53 for ?125 (not including vat) 8750544866 Dan From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Jan 15 17:01:19 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 23:01:19 +0000 Subject: Econet file server on Ebay Message-ID: <26c11a640601151501p5cdae5e9h@mail.gmail.com> I'm sure someone here will want this 8750947781 No connection to seller. Dan From rcini at optonline.net Sun Jan 15 17:07:51 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 18:07:51 -0500 Subject: Missing CPMUG archives needed Message-ID: <005601c61a28$84330cf0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I was searching my copy of the CPMUG archive for something and I discovered that I have a bad archive file and a few missing ones. I don't know if the missing ones actually exist, however. Here's what I'm missing and what's a bad ARK file. CPMUG040.ark is bad. I'm missing 039 and 055-077 (don't know if these exist). I tried the usual on-line places and looked in the WC_CDROM and these aren't there. Please contact off-list if you can help. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Jan 15 17:10:05 2006 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 18:10:05 -0500 Subject: More Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <26c11a640601151456j7210db71s@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640601151456j7210db71s@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20060115180816.023200a0@rickmurphy.net> At 05:56 PM 1/15/2006, Dan Williams wrote: >An Amiga 4000 for ?1400 8750494707 >An RD53 for ?125 (not including vat) 8750544866 > >Dan Worse yet, what sounds like a RD53 drive tray for $89.95, shipping $13.94. 8711105807 I've got four or five of these that I'd be happy to sell at that price! -Rick From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Jan 15 17:40:07 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 23:40:07 -0000 Subject: More Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <26c11a640601151456j7210db71s@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004801c61a2d$057545e0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Dan Williams wrote: > An Amiga 4000 for ?1400 8750494707 > An RD53 for ?125 (not including vat) 8750544866 The Amiga is ?150 (although the BIN is admittedly optimistic :-)) The RD53 is from a dealer, so no surprise there! Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 15 13:04:25 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 19:04:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AC power on front panels In-Reply-To: from "Bill Sudbrink" at Jan 14, 6 08:14:06 pm Message-ID: > A good solution to this, that was told to me by a man who > assembled new IMSAIs "back in the day", is to use the bottom > 3/4 inch of a Tic-Tac candy box. You get the fuse covered > in plastic but can still see it. It fits tight and will stay I'ev seen open-type fuseholders with official transparaent plastic covers. Voth for 20mm and 1~1/4" (is that what you'd call a 3AG fuse) fuses, and both for chassis mounting and PCB mounting. I normally use them for any fuse that's carrying significant voltage [1] or current. It's a lot cheaper than the results of accidentally touching it or shorting it to something else. [1] Dor the pedants, a fuse (or anything else) can'r carry a voltage. What I mean is that there is a significant voltage between the fuse terminals and the local ground. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 15 16:14:21 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 22:14:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AC power on front panels In-Reply-To: <13854.195.212.29.75.1137320422.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> from "gordonjcp@gjcp.net" at Jan 15, 6 10:20:22 am Message-ID: > > > > So? DEC did that in their power controllers. I am quite sure you have > > plenty of trnasformers powered all the time anyway -- the doorbell, the > > clock/timer in the cooker/microwave oven, the VCR, ATX PSUs, etc.... OK, > > some of those are SMPSUs running in standby mode, but the point is that > > there's plenty of circuity energised all the time. > > Not really - I make a point of avoiding things that draw power when > they're not in use. I want to keep as much stuff as I can when I move > back up north, and the house there is going to be off-grid. Sure... But surely you don't leave your classic computers plugged in all the time. I certainly done for several reasons -- I don't have enougb mains sockets, I'd rather not risk having 30-year-old insulation break down when I'm not there to turn it off, for example. So even if you use a transformer PSU to operate a relay, it's only really wasting power when the machine is plugged in but the console switch is off. For example when you're using the machine and need to turn it off to pull one of the cards. When you're not using it at all, you unplug it from the mains. -tony From Useddec at aol.com Sun Jan 15 18:11:09 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 19:11:09 EST Subject: Looking for DSSI ISE disk Message-ID: <159.5f80b339.30fc3e9d@aol.com> Hi De, I have several drives and parts for these. Send me a wish list Thanks, Paul From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jan 15 18:19:23 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 18:19:23 -0600 Subject: seeking SGI Indigo2 Impact power supply In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20060115170641.00ba62d8@wilma.widomaker.com> References: <5.2.1.1.1.20060115170641.00ba62d8@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: <43CAE68B.5000507@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Swiger wrote: > All - My SGI workstation (which I use to create stuff in Blender, altho > the rendering > is done elsewhere for speed ;) just emitted the smoke of life from it's > power supply. > I'm looking for SGI P/N 060-8002 or the stronger 060-0027 (Zytec p/n > 22928805). > > The only sources I could find with Google are 1) out of stock or, 2) > $700. I'll give you one for free, if you'll pay shipping on the whole system. For that matter, I have several R4x00 and a couple of R10000 Indigo 2 boxes I'll ship to anybody who wants 'em. Some have disk, some have RAM, all have at least one sled. They take "standard" 36-bit parity 72-pin SIMMs, SOG 13W3 display, PS/2 kbd/mouse. You can download IRIX v6.22m from SGI if you know how to set up a TFTP/NFS server. Let me know, first come first pick, I'll box them up and get you a total, you paypal, I ship within 3 days. Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 15 19:13:57 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:13:57 -0800 Subject: More Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <26c11a640601151456j7210db71s@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640601151456j7210db71s@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 10:56 PM +0000 1/15/06, Dan Williams wrote: >An Amiga 4000 for ?1400 8750494707 >An RD53 for ?125 (not including vat) 8750544866 These prices don't seem that far out of line. That is an Amiga Technologies A4000T with OS 3.9, a PPC/060 accelerator card, a Cyberstorm 3D graphics card, AND a network card! Plus it sounds like the accelerator card is maxed on RAM from the sounds of things. I'm also going to assume the Accelerator card has the SCSI add-on. The seller wants ?1400 for BIN, that isn't to say that's the reserve price, but I wouldn't blame him if it is. Try pricing the various pieces of that system! The RD53 is from a dealer, and includes a 1 month warranty. Anyone who knows RD53's knows that such a warranty can be risky. Even *dead* RD53's can be worth quite a bit to a dealer. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From lsprung at optonline.net Sun Jan 15 20:16:18 2006 From: lsprung at optonline.net (lance sprung) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 21:16:18 -0500 Subject: Other lists for Vintage Video Games perhaps? Message-ID: Folks: I apologize in advance if anyone finds this question off topic, but is anyone aware of a list like this one for the topic of vintage video games? Thank you, From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jan 15 21:18:15 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 22:18:15 -0500 Subject: RT11 boot block 0 words ? In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2602@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2602@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <43CB1077.80503@compsys.to> Probably the primary reason I always run with all drives on WRITE PROT is that I frequently make modifications to the operating system or device drivers. As most individuals can appreciate, who run under RT-11, there is absolutely no protection even when running a user program, although it might be a bit less likely to cause a random write to a disk drive. But when the operating system (or a device driver) is being modified, really strange things can (although very rarely) occur which could result in the disk drive being corrupted. If you see an annoying error message about the SWAP file when using WRITE PROT, then: SET EXIT NOSWAP In addition, I have found a number of bugs in the operating system which cause RT-11 to crash. When I was fixing the code which caused the problems, it was frequently necessary to run the bug to completion so that I understood exactly what takes place and identify the specific instructions that lead to the crash. PLUS, I also modified the USR to allow a PH(X).SYS pseudo Path device Handler which PHn => dnA, dnB, dnC, etc. which acts like the symbolic name list in VMS or the PATH NAME in DOS. All of the above code changes had their share of problems during development and I was always grateful when I crashed RT-11 during the debug phase that the disk drive was in WRITE PROT, although not quite as pleased when I had not yet saved the latest source to be tested - early on I learned to at least save the modified source file. Fortunately, the bugs which cause RT-11 to crash rarely occur. And since no one at either DEC and now Mentec ever seemed interested enough to want to fix the bugs when I used to have conversations, I never bothered to submit to the one-way SPR route without any feedback. Even the RT-11 Bug List at: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/ has not resulted in any feedback in over 3 years since the first version and more than 2 years after the second. Eventually, I will release a PAX.SYS device driver to fix the bug in RT11XM.SYS and RT11ZM.SYS since otherwise a SYSGEN would be required. However, as I have indicated, I am attempting to calculate li for prime numbers (try Google) when x is large (x up to 10**100) which is providing an interesting challenge. Also, when I release PAX.SYS, I want to include the ability to intercept Application Keypad ESC sequences which include lower case letters and prevent conversion to upper case during typeahead if that is selected by the user (SET PA KEYPAD=[NO]ESC or something similar). I was working on that additional feature when I became distracted by li(x). A decade ago, I thought it might still be possible to sell bug fixes. The Y2K bug was also high on my list and that was a big flop. Now, I can't even seem to find anyone interested enough in RT-11 to want the bugs fixed for free. At one point, there seemed to be a bit of interest in a Y2K version of V05.03 of RT-11, but naturally only from hobby users. I did fix 95% of V05.04G to be Y2K, but the time I spent (about 3 months) was not very rewarding. The ONLY feedback I received from QA at the company it was sold to was that: DATE 31-Feb-2005 is allowed - I forgot that 31-Feb-99 was also allowed as late as V05.06 of RT-11 and no one had bothered to provide a list of the non-Y2K bugs to be fixed. In point of fact, even in V05.07 of RT-11, I understand that it is possible to enter: DATE 31-Feb-2005 and NOT receive an error message. ONLY when the command "DATE" is entered does an invalid date message appear. Now that is sloppy implementation as far as I am concerned. Naturally this could be regarded as a "feature" such that V05.07 is compatible with prior versions where no error message is provided when an invalid date is used when the date is being set. Sorry - not my cup of tea!!!!!!!!!! I will be really surprised if there is any feedback from this post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jerome Fine >Gooijen, Henk wrote: >Thanks Jerome for this information. >I did know what the WRITE PROT button does :-), but the fact >that you can run RT-11 with that button ON was new to me, >as long as you don't need to write to the pack, of course. > >Very handy if you make any copy from the system disk to an >other disk. An error in the entry line (DL0 <-> DL1: swapped) >will not be harmful to the system disk with the WRITE PROT >button ON. I used your tip yesterday! >I did notice however, that I became a little less "on guard", >because I was thinking "I'am safe" :-) > >BTW, as you can guess, my problems with the RL drives that >would not boot are solved. The drive(s), cables and the pack >are all fine, the RL11 controller developed a fault. >I have tagged the board with a label that describes the >symptoms and put it aside ... for days when I have more time >to do some fault finding on the board; when I'm retired :-). > >- Henk, PA8PDP. > >>Jerome Fine replies: >> >>Tony is correct. The boot block does start with 240 for the >>RL02. If you know the approximate version of RT-11 and the >>flavour of the monitor (RT11FB, RT11XM, etc.), most of the >>rest of the boot block at block zero can be described. Of >>course, if you did that, you also would have read the RL02 pack! >> >>One method of making sure that the RL02 pack is not changed >>is to WRITE PROTECT the pack so that it can't be changed - >>PERIOD! While some operating systems can't run, RT-11 is >>PERFECTLY happy using this method of making sure that the >>system disk (or any other for that matter) is not altered. >>Of course, you also can't save any new files. BUT, you can >>turn off the WRITE PROTECT at any time and save one file at a >>time when you actually have something to save. NOTE that >>RT-11 must also write first to the directory, so if you use >>this method, best to use VM: and copy the file in one >>operation using PIP after the file is complete. >> >>Sincerely yours, >> >>Jerome Fine >> From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 15 22:16:56 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 20:16:56 -0800 Subject: Other lists for Vintage Video Games perhaps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Folks: >I apologize in advance if anyone finds this question off topic, but is >anyone aware of a list like this one for the topic of vintage video games? >Thank you, The only thing I'm aware of is http://www.neo-geo.com which has forums covering both the Neo Geo home system, and MVS arcade system. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 15 22:49:48 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 20:49:48 -0800 Subject: Unknown Honeywell tape drive - Full disclosure! References: <43C2CF04.20006@hachti.de> <14255.217.10.50.85.1136898872.squirrel@webmail.hachti.de> <43C9D932.8070005@hachti.de> <43CAC1C9.2FB0FBEF@cs.ubc.ca> <43CAC6B7.50102@hachti.de> Message-ID: <43CB25E5.1325C851@cs.ubc.ca> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > Ah hah, matches the heads from the one my friend dismantled, > Oh, same model? Spares??? I just got an email back from the friend after sending him a link to your pictures: apparently not the same, the one he dismantled had the controls along the top. So it's a different model or perhaps the tape-handling mechanism was being OEM'd (I'm still fairly convinced the tape handling mechanism is the same). He couldn't get a model/manufacturer of the one he dismantled, the nameplate and some parts of it were missing. Just for amusement I've been trying to match the parts I got to a manufacturer/model number. > Perhaps. But I *won't* interface it to "something more modern". > The controller is built into a 1969 Honeywell H316 chassis, I want to > use it its original context :-) Well that's even better ... didn't realise you had period equipment to use it with, although I do recall seeing some web pages of someone in Germany with a 'smaller' Honeywell processor. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Jan 15 23:07:50 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 23:07:50 -0600 Subject: Other lists for Vintage Video Games perhaps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CB2A26.8050301@brutman.com> lance sprung wrote: > Folks: > I apologize in advance if anyone finds this question off topic, but is > anyone aware of a list like this one for the topic of vintage video games? > Thank you, There is a usenet group for the full sized arcade style games. It has helped me keep the Williams Defender running. Mike From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 15 23:17:21 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (cclist at sydex.com) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 21:17:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thanks again, Dave! Message-ID: <4952.71.36.204.61.1137388641.squirrel@www.sydex.com> On 1/15/2006 at 2:20 PM John Foust wrote: >Last one on eBay went for $60: 8747653996 . And yet the floppy tape cards, using the same chip, go begging. Go figure. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jan 15 23:43:35 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 23:43:35 -0600 Subject: northstar stuff References: <20060114221007.LIYC15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <00c801c61a5f$cb92d210$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Dave Dunfield wrote.... > Hopefully there will be at least one boot disk among the "blank" floppies > that you have, as getting the OS into a horizon without a boot disk can > be difficult (not not impossible). > > I have images for several NorthStar OS's on my site. You're awesome Dave :) I spent a little time tonight and got your wonderful NST program working and downloaded some disk images from your site. I was able to recreate the disk images pretty easily. Thanks for creating & sharing NST (as well as the images). Yes, I found one disk still in one of the drives that was bootable. It was an application disk and was missing parts of the os, but it had dos and M0000 on it so I was in business. > If have have a ROM board, easiest thing to do is to deselect RAM at 0000 > and put in a ROM monitor. I used the older "loads at 2000" versions of N* > OS for the in-memory system, so you have 8K at 0000. You will also need > to change the power-on vector jumpers on the CPU board to activate > your ROM. (There is also 4K of "free" space from F000-FFFF is that > works out better for you). Looks like two of the machines have three memory boards, one has one. I believe each board is 16K? Two of the machines also have 8K SRAM boards. Two have the prom option on the cpu, and one has an S100 extender board in it. Nifty stuff :) Jay West From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Jan 16 00:26:31 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 07:26:31 +0100 Subject: More Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <004801c61a2d$057545e0$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <004801c61a2d$057545e0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <43CB3C97.6050802@bluewin.ch> a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > Dan Williams wrote: >> An Amiga 4000 for ?1400 8750494707 >> An RD53 for ?125 (not including vat) 8750544866 > > The Amiga is ?150 (although the BIN is admittedly optimistic :-)) > > The RD53 is from a dealer, so no surprise there! > To think a HP2748 papertapereader I just sold fetched a grand total of 5 Euros.... Ebay madness indeed ! Jos From news at computercollector.com Mon Jan 16 00:30:02 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 01:30:02 -0500 Subject: Other lists for Vintage Video Games perhaps? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003b01c61a66$4960e0f0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> There's a very active web forum at www.armchairarcade.com -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of lance sprung Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 9:16 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Other lists for Vintage Video Games perhaps? Folks: I apologize in advance if anyone finds this question off topic, but is anyone aware of a list like this one for the topic of vintage video games? Thank you, From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jan 16 02:33:11 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:33:11 -0000 (GMT) Subject: RT11 boot block 0 words ? In-Reply-To: <43CB1077.80503@compsys.to> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2602@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <43CB1077.80503@compsys.to> Message-ID: <29326.195.212.29.92.1137400391.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > Fortunately, the bugs which cause RT-11 to crash rarely occur. And since > no one at either DEC and now Mentec ever seemed interested enough to > want to fix the bugs when I used to have conversations, I never bothered > to submit to the one-way SPR route without any feedback. > Even the RT-11 Bug List at: > http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/ > has not resulted in any feedback in over 3 years since the first version > and more > than 2 years after the second. Eventually, I will release a PAX.SYS > device I've never really come across any of the bugs on the list > A decade ago, I thought it might still be possible to sell bug fixes. > The Y2K bug > was also high on my list and that was a big flop. Now, I can't even > seem to find > anyone interested enough in RT-11 to want the bugs fixed for free. At > one point, > there seemed to be a bit of interest in a Y2K version of V05.03 of > RT-11, but > naturally only from hobby users. If I can help bang on some of the fixed code, or contribute in any way, let me know. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jan 16 03:01:18 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:01:18 -0000 (GMT) Subject: AC power on front panels In-Reply-To: References: <13854.195.212.29.75.1137320422.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> from "gordonjcp@gjcp.net" at Jan 15, 6 10:20:22 am Message-ID: <32331.195.212.29.83.1137402078.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> >> >> >> > So? DEC did that in their power controllers. I am quite sure you have >> > plenty of trnasformers powered all the time anyway -- the doorbell, >> the >> > clock/timer in the cooker/microwave oven, the VCR, ATX PSUs, etc.... >> OK, >> > some of those are SMPSUs running in standby mode, but the point is >> that >> > there's plenty of circuity energised all the time. >> >> Not really - I make a point of avoiding things that draw power when >> they're not in use. I want to keep as much stuff as I can when I move >> back up north, and the house there is going to be off-grid. > > Sure... > > But surely you don't leave your classic computers plugged in all the > time. I certainly done for several reasons -- I don't have enougb mains > sockets, I'd rather not risk having 30-year-old insulation break down > when I'm not there to turn it off, for example. I leave some stuff plugged in all the time. One of my synthesizers tends to stay plugged in and switched on all the time (no different from a lot of PCs) because otherwise it drifts like crazy. Some of my kit stays plugged in even when it's powered off. This tends to be stuff I'm pretty confident in, like the PDP-11. Gordon. From cc at corti-net.de Mon Jan 16 03:09:02 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 10:09:02 +0100 (CET) Subject: Unknown Honeywell tape drive - Full disclosure! In-Reply-To: <20060115194050.718A219624D@bitsavers.org> References: <20060115194050.718A219624D@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jan 2006, Al Kossow wrote: >> * 200 bpi and 556 bpi resolution <-- !!! > > therefore, 7 tracks (800bpi is the lowest density 9-track) Do you want to see my 9-track HP 7970B with 200, 556 and 800 bpi densities? Christian From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Jan 16 03:09:55 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 10:09:55 +0100 Subject: AC power on front panels Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2612@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > Some of my kit stays plugged in even when it's powered off. > This tends to be stuff I'm pretty confident in, like the PDP-11. I always pull the plugs on my PDP-11s, because the small transformer in the power controller is always connected. I once heard a story about a transformer that developed a short-circuit in a winding, and the thing got hot ... Actually, I don't pull the plugs. In my little museum it is too much hassle to get to the plugs on the wall behind the racks. I have six resettable 230VAC/16A. fuses which I turn off when I am not in the "computer room". - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From hachti at hachti.de Mon Jan 16 05:55:34 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 12:55:34 +0100 (CET) Subject: Unknown Honeywell tape drive - Full disclosure! In-Reply-To: References: <20060115194050.718A219624D@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1331.217.10.50.85.1137412534.squirrel@webmail.hachti.de> >> therefore, 7 tracks (800bpi is the lowest density 9-track) > > Do you want to see my 9-track HP 7970B with 200, 556 and 800 bpi > densities? ... and I learn again.... :-) +ph From charlesmorris at direcway.com Mon Jan 16 08:43:18 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (charlesmorris at direcway.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:43:18 -0500 Subject: OT: Video Game list Message-ID: <2fe58fb2fe6bb4.2fe6bb42fe58fb@direcway.com> I have thirteen functioning arcade games in my basement. Not completely OT since they all date from the 1980's and have at least one 8-bit microprocessor in each :) Anyway, try "RGVAC" as it is commonly known (rec.games.video.arcade.collecting). Lots of help there, many posts by regulars, etc. I even got a T-shirt with a RGVAC logo there :) -Charles From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 16 11:10:40 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 09:10:40 -0800 Subject: Unknown Honeywell tape drive - Full disclosure! Message-ID: Do you want to see my 9-track HP 7970B with 200, 556 and 800 bpi densities? -- Not necessary. I have two. If you look at the 7970B manual, there is a configuration matrix which shows that the only HP drive which supported sub 800 bpi densities and 9 track tapes is a read-only drive with dual 7 and 9 track head stacks. What would be more interesting is if you could find any place in the ANSI standards documenting a sub 800 bpi 9 track 1/2" tape format. 800bpi 9 track was invented by IBM for System 360, which went from 6 to 8 bit character encodings. There would have been no reason to support lower densities on these drives, since all of the previous IBM tape drives were 7 track. From hachti at hachti.de Mon Jan 16 11:47:07 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 18:47:07 +0100 (CET) Subject: More Ebay madness In-Reply-To: <43CB3C97.6050802@bluewin.ch> References: <004801c61a2d$057545e0$5b01a8c0@pc1> <43CB3C97.6050802@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <46956.217.10.50.85.1137433627.squirrel@webmail.hachti.de> > To think a HP2748 papertapereader I just sold fetched a grand total of 5 > Euros.... ... I am the happy buyer :-) So it will be in good hands. From hachti at hachti.de Mon Jan 16 12:44:27 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 19:44:27 +0100 (CET) Subject: Core overheating Message-ID: <3646.217.10.50.85.1137437067.squirrel@webmail.hachti.de> Hi folks, when browsing the google news archive I found several references to "halt and catch fire" instructions on core memory based computers. The Honeywell minicomputers are also mentioned. The assumption is: If the processor gets into an indirect accessing loop on the same memory location (infinite) it will overheat the core and destroy it. What do you think? Do I have to be careful? I never thought I could program my computer to death. And such problems aren't mentioned in my programmers' guide and operation manuals. Btw all my core memory is ok... What's your opinion? Regards, Philipp From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jan 16 12:59:00 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:59:00 -0500 Subject: AC power on front panels In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2612@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2612@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <200601161359.00368.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 16 January 2006 04:09, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > Some of my kit stays plugged in even when it's powered off. > > This tends to be stuff I'm pretty confident in, like the PDP-11. > > I always pull the plugs on my PDP-11s, because the small > transformer in the power controller is always connected. You could also just flip off the breaker on the power controller, which disconnects everything* in the PCU from the mains. Almost everything I keep plugged in 24x7 (short of light fixtures and one or two unimportant peecees) is also on a UPS. * Except for the EMI filter, inlet power cable, plug from the wall, etc. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 16 13:02:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (cclist at sydex.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:02:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Core overheating Message-ID: <1741.71.36.204.61.1137438171.squirrel@www.sydex.com> On 1/16/2006 at 7:44 PM Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >What do you think? Do I have to be careful? I never thought I could >program my computer to death. >And such problems aren't mentioned in my programmers' guide and operation >manuals. IIRC, it was indeed a problem on the CDC 7600 PPU's. A very tight (e.g., UJN 0) loop would cause core to overheat. The 7600 added a duty-cycle integrator so that repeated accesses to the same location in a short amount of time would actually slow things down a bit to avoid that problem. But the 7600 was a very fast machine for its time. Cheers, Chuck From dholland at woh.rr.com Mon Jan 16 13:43:09 2006 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 14:43:09 -0500 Subject: Speaking of Logic Analyzers... Message-ID: <1137440589.3815.1.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Does anyone happen to have PDF's (User & Service) for a HP 1631D? I've enough bandwidth that getting them, or arranging a drop off point isn't an issue. thanks, David From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 16 13:48:04 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:48:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <4952.71.36.204.61.1137388641.squirrel@www.sydex.com> References: <4952.71.36.204.61.1137388641.squirrel@www.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20060116114420.D49787@shell.lmi.net> > >Last one on eBay went for $60: 8747653996 . On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 cclist at sydex.com wrote: > And yet the floppy tape cards, using the same chip, go begging. Go figure. There is a mystique; people think that there is something special and magical about the Compaticard. "we should reverse engineer it!" Yes, it is an FDC with few of its intrinsic capabilities blocked. But so are many others. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Jan 16 14:11:58 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 21:11:58 +0100 Subject: AC power on front panels Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22AC@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> True, but my problem is space, who doesn't :-) so getting at the rear side to flip the breaker is just as cumbersome as pulling the plug at the wall. And I do not want to install the power controller at the front of the rack. And the EMI filter is indeed always connected, but Murphy ... - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Patrick Finnegan Verzonden: ma 16-01-2006 19:59 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: AC power on front panels On Monday 16 January 2006 04:09, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > Some of my kit stays plugged in even when it's powered off. > > This tends to be stuff I'm pretty confident in, like the PDP-11. > > I always pull the plugs on my PDP-11s, because the small > transformer in the power controller is always connected. You could also just flip off the breaker on the power controller, which disconnects everything* in the PCU from the mains. Almost everything I keep plugged in 24x7 (short of light fixtures and one or two unimportant peecees) is also on a UPS. * Except for the EMI filter, inlet power cable, plug from the wall, etc. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jan 16 11:05:58 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:05:58 Subject: Fluke Re: dangerous voltages inside In-Reply-To: <20060114015811.3fb037f1.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <001d01c618d1$de1be780$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <20060114052045.54695.qmail@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <001d01c618d1$de1be780$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060116110558.13bf6ada@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:58 AM 1/14/06 -0500, Scott wrote: > >Does anybody else here appreciate old Fluke gear? I do. Some of it is VERY good. FWIW a lot of old Fluke Nixie tube meters have been showing up around here lately. I've been grabbing them for the Nixie tube stuff. My newest >piece is an 8060 DMM, which is late-70's 4-1/2 digit meter. What >I really like are the Fluke Differential voltmeters. I currently >have a nice 881AB. The John Fluke Company made their name with >Differential Voltmeters and high-end lab-grade meters. (I'm >biased against anything in a Fluke DMM without a 4-digit model >no., the 8060 is the best handheld they ever made, the newer >'autorange' lines have always been a disappointment to me.) I have a Fluke model 87 DMM that I use constantly. I recently bought a HP LogicDart but I've hardly touched it. I use the 87 when I need a meter and a HP 54510 DSO when I need a scope. (I bought the scope out of a non-working junk pile and fixed it and I love the thing.) > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jan 16 11:13:12 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:13:12 Subject: AC power on front panels In-Reply-To: <5813.195.212.29.92.1137236953.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> References: <20060114105650.BHQY17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <001001c618c2$4d531390$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <20060114105650.BHQY17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060116111312.13d70d5c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:09 AM 1/14/06 +0000, you wrote: > >> If you really don't want mains power at the front panel at all, then a >> relay >> is paobably the best solution - lots of room to mount it (and the xfmr to >> power it), and you don't have to modify the front panel. > >Surely a transformer would need to be powered all the time? > >Why not use a nicad to pull the relay in, and charge it up when the unit >is on? If the nicad was flat, you could just have an ordinary pushbutton >to bypass the relay to get you going. I would be VERY hesitant to put a NiCad in any computer system that I wanted to preserve. They have a nasty habit of leaking without warning and the electrolyte is extremely corrosive. Joe > >Gordon. > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jan 16 11:43:53 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:43:53 Subject: hp 6286a supply In-Reply-To: References: <200601131800.k0DI06Vb013227@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200601131800.k0DI06Vb013227@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060116114353.4f07c610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:04 PM 1/13/06 -0700, you wrote: > > > >I have found in a number of supplies the front panel adjustable pots >open up or the wiper go south. This will make the output go to max. >Another problem is small electrolytic caps in the voltage control >circuit going bad. Often, blindly shotgunning all the small caps will >make things work for another 15 years (sorry Tony...). Don't apologize. There's nothing wrong with that approach. If one cap has failed, it's mostly likely that the other's aren't far behind. Joe > >The Boat Anchor Manual Archive has a >copy of the 6285A which should be close to what you have. > >Good luck. > > CRC > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 16 18:27:21 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 00:27:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hp 6286a supply In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060116114353.4f07c610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jan 16, 6 11:43:53 am Message-ID: > > At 01:04 PM 1/13/06 -0700, you wrote: > > > > > > > >I have found in a number of supplies the front panel adjustable pots > >open up or the wiper go south. This will make the output go to max. > >Another problem is small electrolytic caps in the voltage control > >circuit going bad. Often, blindly shotgunning all the small caps will > >make things work for another 15 years (sorry Tony...). > > > Don't apologize. There's nothing wrong with that approach. If one cap has > failed, it's mostly likely that the other's aren't far behind. This is a constant flamewar in the UK vintage radio magazines... I would be careful shotgunning parts. Firstly that you don't introduce more faults (either by using unsuitable capacitors or mis-connecing them). Secondly that you don't cause problems by changing a capacitor in a timing cirucit and having to re-align things). And of course you do need to be able to trace the fault 'properly' if changing the capacitors doens't fix it. My expeireince with old HP instruments (mostly from their decktop calculators) is that capacitors are not a major source of problems. If I had this PSU in for repair, I'd trace the fault properly first. If I found it was due to defective caps, I probably would change the lot. If it wann't, I might well leave them all alone. That said, there are capacitors I would always change in old equipment. Top of the list (and unlikely to apply to this list) is the coupling capacitor to the grid of an output valve. If that goes leaky, it can mean a burnt-out output valve, a burnt-out rectifier valve, and a burnt-out output transformer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 16 18:12:16 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 00:12:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: <4952.71.36.204.61.1137388641.squirrel@www.sydex.com> from "cclist@sydex.com" at Jan 15, 6 09:17:21 pm Message-ID: > > On 1/15/2006 at 2:20 PM John Foust wrote: [Compaticard, I think] > > >Last one on eBay went for $60: 8747653996 . > > And yet the floppy tape cards, using the same chip, go begging. Go figure. What is the chip (assuming ti's not just an 8272 / 765), and what floppy tape cards should I be looking for? -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 16 18:39:52 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 16:39:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thanks again, Dave! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060116163841.U75454@shell.lmi.net> > [Compaticard, I think] > > >Last one on eBay went for $60: 8747653996 . > > And yet the floppy tape cards, using the same chip, go begging. Go figure. > On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > What is the chip (assuming ti's not just an 8272 / 765), and what floppy > tape cards should I be looking for? IIRC 37C65 definitely NOT a big deal. From MGemeny at pgcps.org Mon Jan 16 19:36:05 2006 From: MGemeny at pgcps.org (Mike Gemeny) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 20:36:05 -0500 Subject: NASA mission to Pluto aided by classic computing. Message-ID: <15EDC737436349459458881C284C88DB016F08@PGCPS2K3EXIS1.pgcps.org> SIMH, The Computer History Simulation Project, The HP2000 simulation, and the 8102 based Cosmac Elf Restoration provide NASA with valuable lessons learned, impacting the longevity planning which is expected to help insure the success of the mission to Pluto. As we indulge ourselves with our interest in classic or retro-computing we often find ourselves having to explain to family, friends, or co-workers why we have this interest. From time to time we have an opportunity make a positive impact on current or future technology. I believe this is one such example. Below is a link for a paper published by NASA, which chronicles the results, pitfalls and lessons learned form the successful resurrection of two computing systems from the 1970s, The Cosmac Elf, and the HP2000. The lessons learned from these two efforts had a significant impact on the longevity planning efforts for the New Horizons mission to Pluto, scheduled for launch tomorrow, Jan 17, 2006. http://descanso.jpl.nasa.gov/RCSGSO/Proceedings/Paper/A0053Paper.pdf As a side note, a Yahoo group has sprung up around the HP2000 simulation. It can be found at the following URL. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hp2000family/ The Cosmac Elf Users Group can be found at: http://homepage.mac.com/ruske/cosmacelf/ The Computer History Simulation Project and SIMH can be found here: http://simh.trailing-edge.com/ Enjoy, Mike Gemeny From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jan 16 19:51:14 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 19:51:14 -0600 Subject: Sort of OT; new eBay phish Message-ID: <43CC4D92.3040802@mdrconsult.com> A quick warning because I know a lot of y'all deal extensively on eBay, and I obviously hadn't seen this one before. I just got a phished "My Messages" eBay email from "a potential buyer". It purported to be a question about a listed item, and the links to the listing took me to a fake login page. It's very slick, I wasn't paying attention and I fell for it. What's really ugly is that the phishing site actually *does* bounce you into your own account and log you in. And hell yes I just changed my password. And my Paypal password. Doc From fernande at internet1.net Mon Jan 16 20:31:04 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 21:31:04 -0500 Subject: Sort of OT; new eBay phish In-Reply-To: <43CC4D92.3040802@mdrconsult.com> References: <43CC4D92.3040802@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <43CC56E8.7050808@internet1.net> Doc Shipley wrote: > A quick warning because I know a lot of y'all deal extensively on > eBay, and I obviously hadn't seen this one before. This is new to me too. I got one earlier today, but I caught it. What made me suspect something was up, was that the email was so generic. In addition, he asked things that were plainly stated in my auction. I did a search for the username, and it came back as no longer a registered user!! > > I just got a phished "My Messages" eBay email from "a potential > buyer". It purported to be a question about a listed item, and the > links to the listing took me to a fake login page. It's very slick, I > wasn't paying attention and I fell for it. Well, if you look, it wasn't actually in the message area if you logged into "My Ebay". > > What's really ugly is that the phishing site actually *does* bounce > you into your own account and log you in. I don't see how that's possible. Unless you mean that your browser automatically fills in your username and password into a fake ebay page, as if it were the real one. Otherwise, why would the scammer even need to send an email to you? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jan 16 20:48:35 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 20:48:35 -0600 Subject: Sort of OT; new eBay phish In-Reply-To: <43CC56E8.7050808@internet1.net> References: <43CC4D92.3040802@mdrconsult.com> <43CC56E8.7050808@internet1.net> Message-ID: <43CC5B03.10209@mdrconsult.com> C Fernandez wrote: > Doc Shipley wrote: > > This is new to me too. I got one earlier today, but I caught it. What > made me suspect something was up, was that the email was so generic. In > addition, he asked things that were plainly stated in my auction. I did > a search for the username, and it came back as no longer a registered > user!! Right. And on mine, the auction item number was invalid. >> I just got a phished "My Messages" eBay email from "a potential >> buyer". It purported to be a question about a listed item, and the >> links to the listing took me to a fake login page. It's very slick, I >> wasn't paying attention and I fell for it. > > > Well, if you look, it wasn't actually in the message area if you logged > into "My Ebay". Well, yeah, but that was a little late. :\ Like I said, if I had been paying attention (and if eBay wasn't constantly "tweaking" the look and feel), it would have been fairly easy to spot. But I wasn't. >> What's really ugly is that the phishing site actually *does* bounce >> you into your own account and log you in. > > > I don't see how that's possible. Unless you mean that your browser > automatically fills in your username and password into a fake ebay page, > as if it were the real one. Otherwise, why would the scammer even need > to send an email to you? No, I mean that when I clicked the "item link" in the phisher's email, and logged into the page it took me to, it redirected me to eBay and logged me into my real account, so that I ended up in my normal "My Summary" interface, with my current watched items and stuff showing. I don't know how they did it, but I'm guessing it just requires a little PHP code on the phisher's site. Doc From mtpro at aol.com Mon Jan 16 20:55:53 2006 From: mtpro at aol.com (mtpro at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 21:55:53 -0500 Subject: Helping fellow collectors . . . In-Reply-To: <200601161800.k0GI03Ed056077@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601161800.k0GI03Ed056077@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <8C7E928AA6C0304-1180-4226@FWM-R20.sysops.aol.com> I was not able to help these two people, if anyone can, please reply directly to them: --------------------------------- I'm wondering if you can help me. I'm looking for a copy of q-dos or 86-dos to complete my collection. Do you have any information on where I might find one? Thanks for anything you can provide. Christopher D Holmes chris at jli.coim --------------------------------- I am looking for a back issue of Stewart Alsop's PC Letter. I am looking for volume 7, issue 11 (dated June 2, 1991). Do you have this newsletter in your archives or do you know of anyone that might have back issues. Thank you for your time. Penny Krebs pdkrebs at aol.com --------------------------------- Best, David classiccomputing.com From rcini at optonline.net Mon Jan 16 20:58:34 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 21:58:34 -0500 Subject: AIM65 test ROM redux Message-ID: <000301c61b11$e8182bd0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: While cleaning up old email, I found this post I made in mid-2004: > While browsing an early-1980 issue of Compute magazine, I > saw a blurb for Rockwell offering copies of the manufacturing > test program for the AIM 65 computer. The blurb references a > test manual (#EA74-M800) and a test program listing > (#EA74-J100). It also indicates that on the manufacturing > line, two EPROMs with the test program are installed in the > BASIC ROM slots. > > Does anyone have either manual or the ROMs in question? > > Thanks. > > Rich Since it's been 18 months since that post I thought it worthy to re-post in case someone has come to possess this ROM and/or manual. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From fernande at internet1.net Mon Jan 16 21:01:29 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 22:01:29 -0500 Subject: Sort of OT; new eBay phish In-Reply-To: <43CC5B03.10209@mdrconsult.com> References: <43CC4D92.3040802@mdrconsult.com> <43CC56E8.7050808@internet1.net> <43CC5B03.10209@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <43CC5E09.9000301@internet1.net> Doc Shipley wrote: > Right. And on mine, the auction item number was invalid. I just checked the auction number I got, and it acted as if I were doing a regular search..... like for a part number or something. I found the "related search" links interesting. one of them was the username that I got in the email. > Well, yeah, but that was a little late. :\ > > Like I said, if I had been paying attention (and if eBay wasn't > constantly "tweaking" the look and feel), it would have been fairly easy > to spot. But I wasn't. I noticed the email wasn't exactly like what I'm used to getting, but I figured Ebay had just revamped it. > No, I mean that when I clicked the "item link" in the phisher's email, > and logged into the page it took me to, it redirected me to eBay and > logged me into my real account, so that I ended up in my normal "My > Summary" interface, with my current watched items and stuff showing. I get what your saying now. I did report this to Ebay. Normally, I don't bother, but I figured if I hadn't seen this approach before, maybe they hadn't either. I did a quick Google search, and I got about 1 page of hits, using the username I was given. Another slight twist, is that the guy will claim that he's tried twice to send payment via Paypal, wants to know if there's something wrong with your Paypal account. One potential victim noticed that the sender must be using multiple usernames because he forgot to change it in one spot, so his email showed two different supposed users sending the message. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jan 16 21:19:11 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 21:19:11 -0600 Subject: Sort of OT; new eBay phish In-Reply-To: <43CC56E8.7050808@internet1.net> References: <43CC4D92.3040802@mdrconsult.com> <43CC56E8.7050808@internet1.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060116211310.04a7c150@mail> At 08:31 PM 1/16/2006, C Fernandez wrote: >Well, if you look, it wasn't actually in the message area if you logged into "My Ebay". Yes, and that's the best way to avoid the zillion fake eBay messages. Don't rely on your own email, only read it in "My eBay." That's what eBay tells you to do. >I don't see how that's possible. Unless you mean that your browser automatically fills in your username and password into a fake ebay page, as if it were the real one. Otherwise, why would the scammer even need to send an email to you? The code under the "Sign in Securely" button on eBay's login page just does a POST to : https://signin.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?co_partnerid=2&siteid=0&UsingSSL=1 with a few variables set, so it's easy to fake from another site. Automated posting of forms is a useful trick. - John From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Jan 16 21:37:18 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 22:37:18 -0500 Subject: Fluke Re: dangerous voltages inside References: <001d01c618d1$de1be780$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz><20060114052045.54695.qmail@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com><001d01c618d1$de1be780$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <3.0.6.16.20060116110558.13bf6ada@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <001101c61b17$521651b0$0100a8c0@screamer> If its a good measurement, its a Fluke! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 11:05 AM Subject: Fluke Re: dangerous voltages inside > At 01:58 AM 1/14/06 -0500, Scott wrote: > >> >>Does anybody else here appreciate old Fluke gear? > > > I do. Some of it is VERY good. FWIW a lot of old Fluke Nixie tube meters > have been showing up around here lately. I've been grabbing them for the > Nixie tube stuff. > > > My newest >>piece is an 8060 DMM, which is late-70's 4-1/2 digit meter. What >>I really like are the Fluke Differential voltmeters. I currently >>have a nice 881AB. The John Fluke Company made their name with >>Differential Voltmeters and high-end lab-grade meters. (I'm >>biased against anything in a Fluke DMM without a 4-digit model >>no., the 8060 is the best handheld they ever made, the newer >>'autorange' lines have always been a disappointment to me.) > > > I have a Fluke model 87 DMM that I use constantly. I recently bought a > HP LogicDart but I've hardly touched it. I use the 87 when I need a meter > and a HP 54510 DSO when I need a scope. (I bought the scope out of a > non-working junk pile and fixed it and I love the thing.) > >> > > From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 17 00:21:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 23:21:43 -0700 Subject: pertec tape drive interface card for pdp-11/03? Message-ID: Does such a thing exist? The peripherals handbook I got with my 11/03 doesn't list such a thing, but I can imagine that there are Q-bus tape drive controllers that talk to a pertec interface that would work. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jan 17 00:37:40 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 01:37:40 -0500 Subject: pertec tape drive interface card for pdp-11/03? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601170137.40167.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 17 January 2006 01:21, Richard wrote: > Does such a thing exist? The peripherals handbook I got with my 11/03 > doesn't list such a thing, but I can imagine that there are Q-bus tape > drive controllers that talk to a pertec interface that would work. Yeah, but I don't think DEC made any. You'll be looking for third party QBUS cards, made by people like MDB, Dilog, Emulex, AVIV, etc. Google for QBUS and Pertec for some ideas. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mjd.NO.bishop.SPAM at iee.org Fri Jan 13 17:12:07 2006 From: mjd.NO.bishop.SPAM at iee.org (Martin Bishop) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:12:07 -0000 Subject: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? In-Reply-To: <200601111628.07987.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: http://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/jz_lcr40.html Is a nifty, affordable piece of kit. I use one for L & C measurements on home brew coils ... With some nifty cousins. Martin -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Roy J. Tellason Sent: 11 January 2006 21:28 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Recommended logic analyzer/scope tools? On Tuesday 10 January 2006 04:43 pm, Jim Beacon wrote: > AVO was a trade mark of "The Automatic Coil Winder and Electrical > Company", who made measuring instruments and coil winders. > > The instruments included meters, valve testers, signal generators, > transistor testers and LCR bridges. > > I have a few manuals for meters and coil winders on my site: > > www.g1jbg.co.uk/service.htm > > if anyone needs them. It's an interesting list, there. I didn't see much on the main page that was of immediate interest but on http://www.g1jbg.co.uk/manuals2.htm I see a thing or two. In particular, this one: Heathkit CL-1 Crystal calibrator And on this one: Wayne Kerr B221 Universal Bridge I'm wondering if that's one of those LCR bridges you mention? I'm intersted in something of the sort, mostly as a means of measuring inductance, a capability currently lacking from my test equipment. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From skspurling at centurytel.net Sat Jan 14 11:41:20 2006 From: skspurling at centurytel.net (Shannon Spurling) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 11:41:20 -0600 Subject: Old computer magazines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C937C0.8070502@centurytel.net> Hey all, I normally lurk and enjoy reading about every body elses adventures in classic computing. Well, I'm in a little bit of a space squeeze, and being that my wife dosen't like keeping magazines around nor dose she apreciate 8 bit computer stuff, looks like I have a whole bunch of Compute, Computes Gazette, Commodore, Amiga World and other miscellanious magazines to get rid of. A bunch of them were collected in my youth when I didn't know how to properly care for magazines so they are dog eared and some have torn or missing covers. I kind of feel that it's the content that makes them worth keeping. Any one interested? I'd have to charge shipping and a little extra for packaging. Not sure how much that would be. If your interested drop me a line and I'll check into what exactly I have. Thanks Shannon skspurling(at)centurytel.net From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sat Jan 14 16:59:21 2006 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 22:59:21 +0000 Subject: dangerous voltages inside In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43C98249.4010000@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > The worst I've seen (as it made me leap) was the PSU from a Tektronix > terminal (I forget he model number, but it was a colour, raster-scan > one). This was a little SMPSU in a metal can. Unfortunately, there was no > bleeded resistor on the mains smoothing capacitors. If the startup > resistor went open-circuit, the capcitors had no way to discharge. And > the way into the supply was to undo a couple of screws and slide the PCB > out. If you didn't realise the capcitors were likely to still be charged, > you would most likely accidentally touch the mains smoothing capacitors > with painful results. I've done exactly that with an SMPSU from a SCSI tape unit. I grabbed the PCB after the unit had failed, been taken out of service, and left unplugged for a day or so. The main smoothing capacitor was still charged up (and remember we have 240V mains here) and discharged across the second and third fingers of my left hand. I yelled quite a bit. Then, I found that I had "+" and "-" burned into my fingers from the capacitor terminals. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From rp018q4938 at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Jan 14 18:29:46 2006 From: rp018q4938 at blueyonder.co.uk (Roger Pugh) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 00:29:46 +0000 Subject: Stupid Mac Ethernet question In-Reply-To: <001601c6195f$b5d68440$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <001601c6195f$b5d68440$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <1768e7116af1ca94785848e017d17765@blueyonder.co.uk> i seem to remember that a lot of the asante cards and maybee others dont like 10/100 hubs... the solution is to use a simple 10 hub between the mac and the rest of the network that runs 10/100 hope this helps roger On 14 Jan 2006, at 23:10, Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > > > I just recently upgraded the network cabling in my house > to 5e > as part of some new construction, and I also upgraded the networking > components. Now, all of my normal machines run at 100 full duplex. > Anyway. > > > > The strangest thing happened to my Mac IIci - the Ethernet > connection no longer works. I don't even get a link light on the new > switch > (a Cisco/Linksys switch). However, when I plug the Mac into a plain > old 10BT > hub and then uplink it to the switch, I at least get a link light. > > > > Nothing else works, though. The router doesn't show the Mac obtaining > an IP > address, and the ci doesn't see the AppleTalk zone that's on my NT > Server > box. In the previous configuration, everything went through a 24-port > hub. > > > > Does this problem resonate with anyone? > > > > Rich > > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project > Web site: > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > /************************************************************/ > > > > From skspurling at centurytel.net Sun Jan 15 12:48:04 2006 From: skspurling at centurytel.net (Shannon Spurling) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 12:48:04 -0600 Subject: Old computer magazines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CA98E4.7060506@centurytel.net> Hey all, I normally lurk and enjoy reading about every body elses adventures in classic computing. Well, I'm in a little bit of a space squeeze, and being that my wife dosen't like keeping magazines around nor dose she apreciate 8 bit computer stuff, looks like I have a whole bunch of Compute, Computes Gazette, Commodore, Amiga World and other miscellanious magazines to get rid of. A bunch of them were collected in my youth when I didn't know how to properly care for magazines so they are dog eared and some have torn or missing covers. I kind of feel that it's the content that makes them worth keeping. Any one interested? I'd have to charge shipping and a little extra for packaging. Not sure how much that would be. If your interested drop me a line and I'll check into what exactly I have. Thanks Shannon skspurling(at)centurytel.net From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Sun Jan 15 15:25:22 2006 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 22:25:22 +0100 Subject: Some questions about a Olivetti P6060 Message-ID: <003701c61a1a$3129e960$0501a8c0@xp1800> I'm busy fixing a Olivetti P6060 but I'm stuck and do have some questions. Is there somebody who has a service manual or a schematic diagram of this computer or from a P6066 (same kind of machine). The computer is sometimes starting up with errors but I don't know what they mean, sometimes with just the busy-LED is blinking and no display at all. So I need desperatly some kind of technical paper about this machine... Regards Rik From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Sun Jan 15 15:40:56 2006 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 15:40:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: Old computer magazines In-Reply-To: <43C937C0.8070502@centurytel.net> from "Shannon Spurling" at Jan 14, 2006 11:41:20 AM Message-ID: <200601152140.k0FLeuGJ023974@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Hi Shannon, I'm interested in them if no one else responded. Marty > >Hey all, > I normally lurk and enjoy reading about every body elses adventures >in classic computing. Well, I'm in a little bit of a space squeeze, and >being that my wife dosen't like keeping magazines around nor dose she >apreciate 8 bit computer stuff, looks like I have a whole bunch of >Compute, Computes Gazette, Commodore, Amiga World and other >miscellanious magazines to get rid of. A bunch of them were collected in >my youth when I didn't know how to properly care for magazines so they >are dog eared and some have torn or missing covers. I kind of feel that >it's the content that makes them worth keeping. Any one interested? I'd >have to charge shipping and a little extra for packaging. Not sure how >much that would be. If your interested drop me a line and I'll check >into what exactly I have. > >Thanks > >Shannon > >skspurling(at)centurytel.net > > > From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Sun Jan 15 22:55:20 2006 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 22:55:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: Other lists for Vintage Video Games perhaps? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 15, 2006 08:16:56 PM Message-ID: <200601160455.k0G4tKER010456@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> www.classicgaming.com > >>Folks: >>I apologize in advance if anyone finds this question off topic, but is >>anyone aware of a list like this one for the topic of vintage video games? >>Thank you, > >The only thing I'm aware of is http://www.neo-geo.com which has >forums covering both the Neo Geo home system, and MVS arcade system. > > Zane > > >-- >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From ba600 at ncf.ca Sat Jan 14 19:17:02 2006 From: ba600 at ncf.ca (Mike) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 20:17:02 -0500 Subject: old computers In-Reply-To: <200601150015.k0F0FPe1003992@ms-smtp-02-eri0.texas.rr.com> References: <200601150015.k0F0FPe1003992@ms-smtp-02-eri0.texas.rr.com> Message-ID: <200601142017.02752.ba600@ncf.ca> On Saturday 14 January 2006 7:15 pm, Danna Ives wrote: > Hi! > > I am trying to get rid of an old computer I purchased back in 1989. It is > a Tandy 1000TL with a CM-11 color monitor and a DMP 300 Dot Matrix Printer > with some software, a hard plastic keyboard cover, a soft plastic monitor > cover, and the original boxes. All still work and I have never had any > service done on them. I am willing to donate it to anyone who will pay the > shipping or pick it up. Would you or anyone you know be interested? >From your email address it looks like you are a long ways away. I would recommend posting to cctalk at classiccmp.org. this is an International list with many members closer to your area. Mike -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Machines to trade http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/trade.html From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Sat Jan 14 07:40:59 2006 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 08:40:59 -0500 Subject: Quick favor needed -- re: fanfold paper In-Reply-To: <004901c6189c$753c78e0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <004901c6189c$753c78e0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060114083739.01992e80@cogeco.ca> At 06:52 PM 1/13/2006, you wrote: >I need someone to make a hi-res scan of a single sheet of 8.5x11 fanfold >paper with the perforated side holes still attached. I'm making a graphic >image for a web page background, but without having a sheet handy, it's hard >to gauge the proportions of where the holes should be. Oh, and I need it >five minutes ago. :) > >Thanks! > > I hope this helps-- scanner is not large enough to include > perforated edges, so reduced page on copy machine, backed up by > black to show holes, then scanned. Cheers Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ontario Canada N8Y 3J8 519-254-4991 cfox1 at cogeco.ca Check out The Camcorder Kindergarten at www.chasfoxvideo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 15 22:38:01 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 20:38:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: deformatting floppies Message-ID: <20060116043801.5355.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> I would have thought it best to take a magnet to a hd disk before popping in a 720k drive to be formatted, but it seems to not have any (or much) effect. Even using a chunky rare earth magnet! Can someone explain? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From evan947 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 13 08:30:59 2006 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (Evan) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:30:59 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <26c11a640601130125k2eeb44d1m@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000301c6184d$f9737680$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Williams Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 4:26 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists It appears that it has gone now (or moved). Dan From lwbender at shaw.ca Sun Jan 15 23:45:15 2006 From: lwbender at shaw.ca (Warren Bender) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 22:45:15 -0700 Subject: Zemco CompuCruise Message-ID: <000501c61a60$07a27df0$040aa8c0@acer81080ea37f> I am trying to find parts for the older CompuCruise controls. Can you help me. Warren Bender Leduc Alberta Canada lwbender at shaw.ca From wizard1956 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 15 10:30:53 2006 From: wizard1956 at yahoo.com (Joel Johnson) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 08:30:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: New find: RCA Studio II Message-ID: <20060115163053.47036.qmail@web51908.mail.yahoo.com> If you can please send the diagrams and the instruction set for the EPROM of the Studio II,this is something I have started to think abbout lateley. Thanks JOELJOHNSON Phil Clayton musicman38 at mindspring.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 17 02:06:05 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 08:06:05 GMT Subject: AC power on front panels In-Reply-To: Patrick Finnegan "Re: AC power on front panels" (Jan 16, 13:59) References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2612@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <200601161359.00368.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <10601170806.ZM28449@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 16 2006, 13:59, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 16 January 2006 04:09, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > I always pull the plugs on my PDP-11s, because the small > > transformer in the power controller is always connected. > > You could also just flip off the breaker on the power controller, which > disconnects everything* in the PCU from the mains. > > * Except for the EMI filter, inlet power cable, plug from the wall, etc. :) I've had to repair 861 power controllers twice in the last ten years or so -- once was indeed the EMI filter :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Jan 17 02:29:47 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 09:29:47 +0100 Subject: AC power on front panels Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2615@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Thanks for that remark, Pete! I did not want to go into "pedantic" mode, but I was indeed thinking about the capacitors in the EMI filter, but thought that chances are very slim that they fail. But they can! Once in ten years is good, except if it's *your* filter that fails :-) The caps in the EMI filter have a very small leakage current, so if you are 'energy-concious' pulling the plug is truely the only option. - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > Sent: dinsdag 17 januari 2006 9:06 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: AC power on front panels > > On Jan 16 2006, 13:59, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Monday 16 January 2006 04:09, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > > > I always pull the plugs on my PDP-11s, because the small > transformer > > > in the power controller is always connected. > > > > You could also just flip off the breaker on the power controller, > which > > disconnects everything* in the PCU from the mains. > > > > * Except for the EMI filter, inlet power cable, plug from the wall, > etc. :) > > I've had to repair 861 power controllers twice in the last > ten years or so -- once was indeed the EMI filter :-) > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From fm.arnold at gmx.net Tue Jan 17 02:50:37 2006 From: fm.arnold at gmx.net (Frank Arnold) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 09:50:37 +0100 Subject: In Germany: IBM Office System 6, Prozessor 6/420 from 1977 Message-ID: Near Koblenz: an IBM Office System 6, Processor 6/420 from 1977. Waiting for a taker. Includes some training SW and handbook. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8749623945 Frank From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 17 03:15:36 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 09:15:36 GMT Subject: AC power on front panels In-Reply-To: "Gooijen, Henk" "RE: AC power on front panels" (Jan 17, 9:29) References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2615@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <10601170915.ZM28590@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 17 2006, 9:29, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Thanks for that remark, Pete! > I did not want to go into "pedantic" mode, but I was indeed > thinking about the capacitors in the EMI filter, but thought > that chances are very slim that they fail. But they can! > Once in ten years is good, except if it's *your* filter that > fails :-) It was one of the big sealed metal can filters. I didn't think I'd be able to open it up and repair it without a blowtorch and excessive heat so I just replaced it. I don't know exactly what failed inside, but no power reached the rest of the box, so perhaps not a capacitor. The modern replacement filter was somewhat smaller and lighter, I recall. Having the Y-class suppressor caps blow up in input filters is a common failure mode in some SMPSUs, notable the ones used in BBC Micros. Several people have reported this on the BBC mailing list in the last year or two. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 17 03:51:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 01:51:57 -0800 Subject: Thanks again, Dave! References: <20060116163841.U75454@shell.lmi.net> <200601170100030746.1CD340C9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601170151570134.1D02C256@mail.sydex.com> On 1/16/2006 at 4:39 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Tony Duell wrote: >> What is the chip (assuming ti's not just an 8272 / 765), and what floppy >> tape cards should I be looking for? > >IIRC 37C65 >definitely NOT a big deal. Also, National 8477, Intel 82077 (but not the AA-1; those will read, but not write FM); even the Intel 820781 should be okay for FM reading (depending on software, may require an oscillator change). Other non-compaticards that work just fine are the Sysgen Omnibridge; and the WD1002A-FOX. The add-in cards with the National DP8473 controllers are very nice. Not only do they read and write FM, but they'll also read and write 128 byte MFM sectors just fine. Cheers, Chuck From cc at corti-net.de Tue Jan 17 05:32:12 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 12:32:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: Unknown Honeywell tape drive - Full disclosure! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jan 2006, Al Kossow wrote: > If you look at the 7970B manual, there is a configuration > matrix which shows that the only HP drive which supported > sub 800 bpi densities and 9 track tapes is a read-only > drive with dual 7 and 9 track head stacks. Well, not exactly. My drive has options 127, 006, 007, 012 and 023 with mod. 236 (ser.no. 1124A00177). This means: 127: 9 track read/write (45 ips) 006: triple density select (200, 556 and 800 bpi) 007: unit select (units 0 to 3) 012: HP logo 023: installation kit So I have a 9 track tape drive that can read *and* write (I've tested it, it has a write enabled indicator and a sensor for the write enable ring), and it supports three densities. The 7 and 9 track read only option would be no. 141 opposed to 127 (9 track r/w) or 136 (7 track r/w). (From HP manual 7970-90383) > What would be more interesting is if you could find any > place in the ANSI standards documenting a sub 800 bpi > 9 track 1/2" tape format. No, I can't... Maybe this is HP specific. Christian From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Jan 17 06:37:48 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 13:37:48 +0100 Subject: RK07 questions Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2619@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi all, I am working on the last peripheral device connected to my 11/34, two RK07s. This will be my first experience with RK07 drives, so I have a few questions. I installed the RK611 in the system (in an expansion box) and made sure that the UNIBUS is OK. The 11/34 starts, and I can boot RT11 from DL0:. ".SH DEV" shows that the DM.SYS driver is installed. However, after loading a pack the RT11 commands ".DIR DM0:" or ".INIT DM0:" report an error. I must say that the READY light did not turn ON on the drive. I switched the 11/34 OFF, because I think I need to take a closer look at the RK07 drive itself first. Here is what I did and saw. I removed the metal cover at the top-rear side. Now you can see the big magnet and the head assembly. I first checked the "emergency retract" mechanism. When you push down the lever that locks the heads, and gently push the head assembly forward toward the cartridge compartment, the heads are pulled back as soon as the little microswitch is (dis)engaged. Then I loaded a pack and pushed the LOAD button. After some 20 seconds the disk has spun up (I assume), because the heads start to move. The heads first move at a moderate speed toward the centre of the cartridge (I would say a full travel), stop, and then move back at that same speed, but not completely to the home position. Again, I *assume* that the heads detected track 0 and stay there. However, the READY lamp does not go ON. It could not, because the lamp was defective :-) After replacing the lamp with a checked-good lamp, I repeated the exercise. The heads show the same movement, but the READY light stays OFF. 1. Is that head movement behaviour correct? I will try to make a movie of the movement this weekend ... 2. What would the head movement be if the pack was bulk-erased? 3. Should the READY lamp go ON? An other thing I noticed. As the 11/34 is OFF, there is no controller connected to the RK07 drive. OK, it is, but not powered. With the RL drives the FAULT lamp will be ON if the controller is not powered. Is this the same for the RK07? The RK611 controller is not powered, but the FAULT lamp stays OFF. I did check that the lamp is OK. Is this correct behaviour? thanks, - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Jan 17 09:37:01 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Edward) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 16:37:01 +0100 (CET) Subject: pertec tape drive interface card for pdp-11/03? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14563.62.177.191.201.1137512221.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Yes there are indeed QBus cards for the Pertec interface. The Emulex QT-131 is one of those (dual card type). I've found 2 of those in a box of misc stuff. Regards, Ed > Does such a thing exist? The peripherals handbook I got with my 11/03 > doesn't list such a thing, but I can imagine that there are Q-bus tape > drive controllers that talk to a pertec interface that would work. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From gtoal at gtoal.com Tue Jan 17 09:39:52 2006 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 09:39:52 -0600 Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CD0FC8.mailLYT11TKSD@gtoal.com> > On 1/4/06, Tony Duell wrote: > > What languages were available for the BBC Micro (without a second > > processor[1]), I wonder. I know about BASIC, Pascal, Forth, Lisp > > There was an Acornsoft BCPL. > > There is known to be a Beebug C, but I never managed to track it down. > > The C I did manage to track down (not proper C but Small-C, and indeed > only a limited subset of even that) was done by Dr. A. J. Travis. I > wrote a project in this, and really liked it. COMAL was very nice. What BBC Basic should have been ;-) I presume you do know about Acornsoft C. (I did some of the QA on that compiler) There was a LOGO of sorts, I seem to recall, but hard pressed to remember any details. It may have been a hack job in basic actually. Hold on ... http://www.catharton.com/electronica/viewpage.php?page_id=2 yep, was sure I remembered it. And wasn't there an ICON for the beeb? i don't remember it personally but I remember someone at Edinburgh telling me he'd written a version of our text editor ECCE in Icon, and I think it was for the Beeb. Could be wrong about that one. Graham From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jan 17 11:20:25 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 11:20:25 -0600 Subject: Not OT: Classic apps and the Intel Mac In-Reply-To: <20060115102843.2979934f.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <5.1.1.5.2.20060112093215.02288f38@mail.saccade.com> <43C9CD75.7090102@oldskool.org> <20060115003534.01ccd941.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20060115004701.50aeba02.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43CA1CCA.6090105@oldskool.org> <20060115102843.2979934f.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43CD2759.5070107@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: >>>image, I used the Winimage program on my Windows2000 machine to >> >>When you get 400K and 800K disks to read, let me know ;-) > > I read 800K disks onto my Powerbook 165c, using Shrinkwrap. The Missing my point: You were flippant about doing this from Windows2000, which can't read 400K/800K. > There is no barrier whatsoever to getting the data and programs > from 800K disks to the emulator, so long as you have a real Mac Even if they're copy-protected? If so, let me know what program to use! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jan 17 11:25:14 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 11:25:14 -0600 Subject: Other lists for Vintage Video Games perhaps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CD287A.3080404@oldskool.org> If talking about home computer games, there's the Software Collectors Mailing List. It is mostly centered on games for personal computers circa 1977-1995, but any kind of software collecting topic is encouraged. You can sign up here: http://list.oldskool.org/mailman/listinfo/swcollect lance sprung wrote: > Folks: > I apologize in advance if anyone finds this question off topic, but is > anyone aware of a list like this one for the topic of vintage video games? > Thank you, -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jan 17 11:27:36 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 11:27:36 -0600 Subject: deformatting floppies In-Reply-To: <20060116043801.5355.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060116043801.5355.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43CD2908.400@oldskool.org> Chris M wrote: > I would have thought it best to take a magnet to a hd > disk before popping in a 720k drive to be formatted, > but it seems to not have any (or much) effect. Even > using a chunky rare earth magnet! Can someone explain? Wimpy. :-) You need a good old-fashioned electromagnet. I use a Radio Shack degausser I picked up a decade ago for $12. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From alanp at snowmoose.com Tue Jan 17 12:03:04 2006 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 10:03:04 -0800 Subject: Thinking about selling my VAX, any interest? Message-ID: <43CD3158.5090901@snowmoose.com> I have an 11/750 that I am thinking about selling. My storage situation may be becoming unstable and I am thinking that I would rather have it in a safe home than have to move quickly to somewhere less desireable. It is a 750 with an expansion cabinet, a TU80 tape drive, a SA482 (i think that is the number) rack and 4 disk drives (2 RA81s, 2 RA82s). It is located in the Seattle, WA area. Anyone interested in it? alan From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Jan 17 12:15:57 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 18:15:57 -0000 Subject: AC power on front panels References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2615@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <009f01c61b92$10688be0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> > Thanks for that remark, Pete! > I did not want to go into "pedantic" mode, but I was indeed > thinking about the capacitors in the EMI filter, but thought > that chances are very slim that they fail. But they can! > Once in ten years is good, except if it's *your* filter that > fails :-) > The caps in the EMI filter have a very small leakage current, > so if you are 'energy-concious' pulling the plug is truely > the only option. > > - Henk, PA8PDP. > We have PDPs on 24/7 at work, and have had the occasional controller failure, but we have VERY sensitive smoke alarms and an on site fire service! I wouldn't even leave one plugged in at home. I have seen a number of failures of power supplies, especially the type "designed" to be left on, often caused by poor manufacturing (badly made transformers mainly), but, bear in mind that most electrolytic have a design life of 10 years or less, leaving these things unattended is unwise. I suppose you could go the route of using a remote monitored smoke alarm to kill the power to your kit in the event of a little smoke. Jim. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 17 13:58:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 11:58:24 -0800 Subject: deformatting floppies In-Reply-To: <43CD2908.400@oldskool.org> References: <20060116043801.5355.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <43CD2908.400@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200601171158240618.00A76E92@mail.sydex.com> On 1/17/2006 at 11:27 AM Jim Leonard wrote: >Wimpy. :-) You need a good old-fashioned electromagnet. I use a Radio >Shack degausser I picked up a decade ago for $12. Yup--the kind that's used for VHS tapes. It's tougher to scramble those bits than you think! Cheers, Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 17 14:04:47 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:04:47 GMT Subject: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available - In-Reply-To: Graham Toal "Re: Speaking of 6502s, was Re: 70's micros still available -" (Jan 17, 9:39) References: <43CD0FC8.mailLYT11TKSD@gtoal.com> Message-ID: <10601172004.ZM29584@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 17 2006, 9:39, Graham Toal wrote: > > On 1/4/06, Tony Duell wrote: > > > What languages were available for the BBC Micro (without a second > > > processor[1]), I wonder. I know about BASIC, Pascal, Forth, Lisp > > > > There was an Acornsoft BCPL. > > There is known to be a Beebug C, but I never managed to track it down. > > > > The C I did manage to track down (not proper C but Small-C, and indeed > > only a limited subset of even that) was done by Dr. A. J. Travis. I > > wrote a project in this, and really liked it. > > COMAL was very nice. What BBC Basic should have been ;-) > > I presume you do know about Acornsoft C. (I did some of the QA > on that compiler) > > There was a LOGO of sorts, I seem to recall, but hard pressed to > remember any details. It may have been a hack job in basic actually. I have here BBC BASIC (at least five versions), COMAL, LISP, Acornsoft FORTH, FORTH79, and JBFORTH (from HCCS) (and there's at least one more FORTH), Acornsoft LOGO (two 16K sideways ROMs), Logotron LOGO (one 16K ROM), HCCS LOGO (also one 16K ROM), microPROLOG, various 6502 assemblers, Beebug C (on a disk here somewhere), Acornsoft C, and BCPL. I'm sure there are more. I keep my ROM images in separate directories, and "Languages" is one of the larger ones. "FilingSysts" is a similar size, there are some smaller ones, and of course the catchall "Utilities" containing everything from spreadsheets to printer utils to graphics extensions is the biggest. You might be surprised to know that "Comms", containing terminal emulators, is the next biggest, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 17 14:10:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:10:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: dangerous voltages inside In-Reply-To: <43C98249.4010000@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at Jan 14, 6 10:59:21 pm Message-ID: > I've done exactly that with an SMPSU from a SCSI tape unit. > I grabbed the PCB after the unit had failed, been taken out > of service, and left unplugged for a day or so. The main > smoothing capacitor was still charged up (and remember we > have 240V mains here) and discharged across the second and That wouldn't make much difference actually. Most of these SMPSUs have 2 capacitors in series. They each charge to around 160V, no matter whether the mainse is 115V or 230V. For the former, the input rectifier acts as a voltage doubler, chearging each capacitor to the peak of the AC input on alternate half cycles. for the latter, the input cirucit is a conventional bridge rectifier. > third fingers of my left hand. I yelled quite a bit. Then, > I found that I had "+" and "-" burned into my fingers from > the capacitor terminals. Ocuh. I can understand cheap PC-related PSUs missing out the bleeder ressitors to xave all of 5p, but I was suprised Tektronix did it. Oh well... The PSU in my HP9845B is relatively friendly in this respect. It has bleeder resistors. It also has well-insulated holes in the top cover through which you can insert voltmeter probes to check the residual voltage on the smoothing capacitors before taking the PSU module out of the machine. The procedure given on the top of the supply is to isolate the mains, wait 5 minutes, insert the discharger tool (which I assume is just another bleeder resistor, or maybe a shorting link!) and then to check the thing is discharged with a meter. Then yoy take it out. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 17 14:16:39 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:16:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sort of OT; new eBay phish In-Reply-To: <43CC4D92.3040802@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Jan 16, 6 07:51:14 pm Message-ID: > > A quick warning because I know a lot of y'all deal extensively on > eBay, and I obviously hadn't seen this one before. > > I just got a phished "My Messages" eBay email from "a potential > buyer". It purported to be a question about a listed item, and the > links to the listing took me to a fake login page. It's very slick, I > wasn't paying attention and I fell for it. I'm sure I'll get caught now... I stick with ancient e-mail software that doesn't let ne click on links. That doesn't attempt to decode/dsipaly html. And which certaily doesn't run executable programs (in any language). I am less likely to get caught by something like this because I will spot that the link doesn't go to ebay.co.uk or wherever, but goes to some totally unknown site. At which point I am pretty sure it's fraudulent -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 17 14:46:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:46:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK07 questions In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2619@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Jan 17, 6 01:37:48 pm Message-ID: > > Hi all, > > I am working on the last peripheral device connected to > my 11/34, two RK07s. This will be my first experience > with RK07 drives, so I have a few questions. > > I installed the RK611 in the system (in an expansion box) > and made sure that the UNIBUS is OK. The 11/34 starts, and > I can boot RT11 from DL0:. ".SH DEV" shows that the DM.SYS > driver is installed. However, after loading a pack the RT11 > commands ".DIR DM0:" or ".INIT DM0:" report an error. What error do you get. IIRC the RK07 pack can be formatted (this does a low-level format of the data surfaces). You need to do that before INITing in most cases. > I must say that the READY light did not turn ON on the drive. > I switched the 11/34 OFF, because I think I need to take a > closer look at the RK07 drive itself first. > Here is what I did and saw. > > I removed the metal cover at the top-rear side. Now you can > see the big magnet and the head assembly. I first checked You can also swing the card cage assembly twards the rear of the drive. Make sure you have the cables connected correnctly (IN and OUT are not the same on these drives -- the controller must connect to an 'IN' connector, the terminator to an OUT connector. Unless you have a dual-ported drive, use the 'A' connectors, make sure you have the interface card in the right slot of the cardcage, and press the 'A' button on the front). On the top of some of the boards are LEDs. The plastic cover over the boards identifies them. What do they do at spin-up? > the "emergency retract" mechanism. When you push down the > lever that locks the heads, and gently push the head assembly > forward toward the cartridge compartment, the heads are pulled > back as soon as the little microswitch is (dis)engaged. OK so the 9.6V NiCd under the chassis is still good. > Then I loaded a pack and pushed the LOAD button. > After some 20 seconds the disk has spun up (I assume), because > the heads start to move. You should hear the spindle motor start running. Mind you, if it wasn't, you'd get some very nasty noises when the heads moved. > The heads first move at a moderate speed toward the centre of > the cartridge (I would say a full travel), stop, and then move > back at that same speed, but not completely to the home position. I think that is correct. The heads do a full seek to the inner guard band, then return to cylinder 0. > Again, I *assume* that the heads detected track 0 and stay there. > However, the READY lamp does not go ON. It could not, because > the lamp was defective :-) After replacing the lamp with a > checked-good lamp, I repeated the exercise. The heads show the > same movement, but the READY light stays OFF. > > 1. Is that head movement behaviour correct? I think so. > I will try to make a movie of the movement this weekend ... > 2. What would the head movement be if the pack was bulk-erased? I would think they'd go towards the spindle and then return to the unloaded position as the drive wouldn't find any servo information at all. I've not tried this, so don't blame me if the heads run into the spindle or something horrible, but you could unplug the servo head from the servo preamplifer and try again. With no servo signals at all, you'd be simulating a bulk-erased pack. Look for a change in behaviour. IIRC there are 4 heads in the RK07. All 4 head cables plug into the read/write board, but one of them has another connector coming from it. That's the servo head. The 'connector' on that head on the R/W board is just to anchor the cable, it's the end-of-cable connector that plugs into the servo preamplifier that you might disocnnect. > 3. Should the READY lamp go ON? I think so, but it's been a long time. > > An other thing I noticed. > As the 11/34 is OFF, there is no controller connected to the > RK07 drive. OK, it is, but not powered. > With the RL drives the FAULT lamp will be ON if the controller > is not powered. Is this the same for the RK07? No, an RK07 will spin up and load the heads without a controller. No FAULT lamp. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 17 14:25:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:25:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: pertec tape drive interface card for pdp-11/03? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 16, 6 11:21:43 pm Message-ID: > > Does such a thing exist? The peripherals handbook I got with my 11/03 > doesn't list such a thing, but I can imagine that there are Q-bus tape > drive controllers that talk to a pertec interface that would work. DEC probably didn't make one at that time. although IIRC the TSV05 was a Pertec controller that went with the TS05 magtape (a rebadged Cipher 880) I am sure there were also third party cards from the likes of Emulex and Dilog. I can't see why any of them would have problems in an 11/03 machine (modulo the normal problems with odd signals on the top 4 address lines in some early backplanes). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 17 14:35:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:35:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AC power on front panels In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2615@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Jan 17, 6 09:29:47 am Message-ID: > > Thanks for that remark, Pete! > I did not want to go into "pedantic" mode, but I was indeed > thinking about the capacitors in the EMI filter, but thought > that chances are very slim that they fail. But they can! The problem is not that they might go dead shorted. That would trip the breaker or blow the fuse or whatever. The problem is that you get a leak somewhere that draws significant current (say around 10A). That won't blow the fuse, but that amount of power disipated in a small space will get things very hot. Maybe even start a fire. Not the same thing (because it's after the contactor), but I've had the blower fan in an RK05 catch fire. The insulation on the windings broke down, flames and smoke came out of the end of the motor, but the fuse didn't fail. If I'd not been looking at the system it could have been nasty. > Once in ten years is good, except if it's *your* filter that > fails :-) > The caps in the EMI filter have a very small leakage current, > so if you are 'energy-concious' pulling the plug is truely > the only option. That shouldn't be as bad as you think. Your electricity meter records true power (not apparent power), it will ignore the purely reactive component of the current. OK, the current will not be purely reactive (if only because of the seires resistance of the wires, etc), but the in-phase component will be small. -tony From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Jan 17 15:50:19 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:50:19 +0100 Subject: RK07 questions Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22B3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I will first describe the results that I saw with looking at the LEDs on the boards in the small rack inside the RK07 drive. A small LED on the outer board (M9016) is always ON. In the stand-by condition the UNLD HDS LED is ON. When I load a pack, and push the LOAD button, the LEDs SPEED OK and BRUSH go ON after approx 15 seconds. A number of seconds later the LEDs BRUSH and UNLD HDS go OFF. At that same time the LEDs LD HDS en FWD go ON and the heads move toward the centre of the spindle. When the head has reached that position, the LEDs LD HDS and FWD go OFF, and RTZ and REV go ON. The head moves back, and when the heads are on "track 0" (this is an assumption) those two LEDs go OFF too. Only the SPEED OK LED is still ON. --- I will have to boot RT11 to tell the error message. AFAIK, you can not format the pack, only do an INIT. I did not check the cable to the controller and to the next drive, but I am pretty sure they are in the port A connections. As the second drive is OFF (and has the terminator), and the controller is OFF, I guess that this does not interfere with the load sequence getting to the READY lamp ON state. I can see the motor that drives the spindle runs, and the belt is OK. It must be driving the platters, otherwise I think the SPEED OK LED would not turn ON. Indeed, there are 4 heads. The wires from one is clearly connected to a different board, so that must be the servo data. I will do your experiment, Tony. And no, I will not blame you if the heads crash :-) Good to hear that no FAULT light ON is OK. I can also try the second drive this weekend, but I must remove the brushes from that drive first. I have a third drive (!) but then I must move stuff around to get to it ... thanks, - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Tony Duell Verzonden: di 17-01-2006 21:46 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: RK07 questions > > Hi all, > > I am working on the last peripheral device connected to > my 11/34, two RK07s. This will be my first experience > with RK07 drives, so I have a few questions. > > I installed the RK611 in the system (in an expansion box) > and made sure that the UNIBUS is OK. The 11/34 starts, and > I can boot RT11 from DL0:. ".SH DEV" shows that the DM.SYS > driver is installed. However, after loading a pack the RT11 > commands ".DIR DM0:" or ".INIT DM0:" report an error. What error do you get. IIRC the RK07 pack can be formatted (this does a low-level format of the data surfaces). You need to do that before INITing in most cases. > I must say that the READY light did not turn ON on the drive. > I switched the 11/34 OFF, because I think I need to take a > closer look at the RK07 drive itself first. > Here is what I did and saw. > > I removed the metal cover at the top-rear side. Now you can > see the big magnet and the head assembly. I first checked You can also swing the card cage assembly twards the rear of the drive. Make sure you have the cables connected correnctly (IN and OUT are not the same on these drives -- the controller must connect to an 'IN' connector, the terminator to an OUT connector. Unless you have a dual-ported drive, use the 'A' connectors, make sure you have the interface card in the right slot of the cardcage, and press the 'A' button on the front). On the top of some of the boards are LEDs. The plastic cover over the boards identifies them. What do they do at spin-up? > the "emergency retract" mechanism. When you push down the > lever that locks the heads, and gently push the head assembly > forward toward the cartridge compartment, the heads are pulled > back as soon as the little microswitch is (dis)engaged. OK so the 9.6V NiCd under the chassis is still good. > Then I loaded a pack and pushed the LOAD button. > After some 20 seconds the disk has spun up (I assume), because > the heads start to move. You should hear the spindle motor start running. Mind you, if it wasn't, you'd get some very nasty noises when the heads moved. > The heads first move at a moderate speed toward the centre of > the cartridge (I would say a full travel), stop, and then move > back at that same speed, but not completely to the home position. I think that is correct. The heads do a full seek to the inner guard band, then return to cylinder 0. > Again, I *assume* that the heads detected track 0 and stay there. > However, the READY lamp does not go ON. It could not, because > the lamp was defective :-) After replacing the lamp with a > checked-good lamp, I repeated the exercise. The heads show the > same movement, but the READY light stays OFF. > > 1. Is that head movement behaviour correct? I think so. > I will try to make a movie of the movement this weekend ... > 2. What would the head movement be if the pack was bulk-erased? I would think they'd go towards the spindle and then return to the unloaded position as the drive wouldn't find any servo information at all. I've not tried this, so don't blame me if the heads run into the spindle or something horrible, but you could unplug the servo head from the servo preamplifer and try again. With no servo signals at all, you'd be simulating a bulk-erased pack. Look for a change in behaviour. IIRC there are 4 heads in the RK07. All 4 head cables plug into the read/write board, but one of them has another connector coming from it. That's the servo head. The 'connector' on that head on the R/W board is just to anchor the cable, it's the end-of-cable connector that plugs into the servo preamplifier that you might disocnnect. > 3. Should the READY lamp go ON? I think so, but it's been a long time. > > An other thing I noticed. > As the 11/34 is OFF, there is no controller connected to the > RK07 drive. OK, it is, but not powered. > With the RL drives the FAULT lamp will be ON if the controller > is not powered. Is this the same for the RK07? No, an RK07 will spin up and load the heads without a controller. No FAULT lamp. -tony This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From fernande at internet1.net Tue Jan 17 16:05:36 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:05:36 -0500 Subject: Sort of OT; new eBay phish In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CD6A30.5040405@internet1.net> Tony Duell wrote: > I am less likely to get caught by something like this because I will spot > that the link doesn't go to ebay.co.uk or wherever, but goes to some > totally unknown site. At which point I am pretty sure it's fraudulent Tony, I use Firefox, which does show me where a link goes when I put the mouse pointer over it. I didn't mention it, but it's one of first things I look for, when I'm presented with a link. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Jan 17 16:18:13 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:18:13 +0100 Subject: RK07 questions Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22B4@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Ok, I was so curious that I did the test with the servo head disconnected. It is sure a different movement! First let me describe the head movement in more detail. In stand-by, the heads are in what I call the "home" position. When the movement starts, the heads come out of the home position at a moderate speed, and when the heads are at "track 0", the speed drops and the heads move at a slower speed towards the centre of the pack. Then the movement stops, and starts at that same slow speed towards the home position. However, the heads stop at what I call that "track 0" position, and stay there until I press the LOAD button again. Then the heads move *fast* to the home position. Now with the servo head disconnected ... To quote 'Allo Allo': "listen very carefully, I will do this only once", well sort-of :-) The heads move at the moderate speed to "track 0", but stay at that speed while the heads move to the centre. That movement now looks a lot faster! At the centre the movement stops, and the heads move at that speed (or was it even faster?) not to the "track 0" position, but to the home position. The FAULT light is now ON. I reconnected the servo head. Time to sleep a night to get new fresh insights ... - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Jan 17 16:33:17 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 14:33:17 -0800 Subject: Core overheating Message-ID: cclist wrote: On 1/16/2006 at 7:44 PM Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >What do you think? Do I have to be careful? I never thought I could >program my computer to death. >And such problems aren't mentioned in my programmers' guide and operation >manuals. IIRC, it was indeed a problem on the CDC 7600 PPU's. A very tight (e.g., UJN 0) loop would cause core to overheat. The 7600 added a duty-cycle integrator so that repeated accesses to the same location in a short amount of time would actually slow things down a bit to avoid that problem. But the 7600 was a very fast machine for its time. Cheers, Chuck Okay, Two points. Halt and Catch Fire was a fictious command. This was sort of an in-group joke. I first saw them described when the IBM 360 was announced in 1963. But they were already old at that time. I came across one of the lists a few months ago in a clean up. Others included: Read and Stretch Tape; Read Card and Shred; Seek Disk and Crash; Print Line and Jam Paper (w./ a variation of Print and Tear Ribbon); Type Wrong Character; Jump To Illegal Address; etc. You can probably create your own. In fact Datamation ran a humor article and asked for creative commands. They published some of the best ones. Any old timer refers to this class of humour as Halt and Catch Fire, since it was usually first on the list. My favorite was Execute and Hang, since it happened often in CDC 3000 machines. We called them Blue Sky commands since the machine went into an undefined state. I'll bet that some of the other old timers better organized than I, still have those lists and will reply with them. Second point. I worked on a lot of 7600s. And I was on the team that designed the Cyber 17X replacements. I never heard of one catching fire. The core ran at 27.5ns cycle time (actually, that was when the data was available - you still had to restore it, since core read out switched the state of the core). That was fastest that core ever was used in a commercial product. At least we advertised it that way. But, if you have a 7600 logic module, look at it closely. The modules is aluminum heat sink on 5 sides - the connector is on the 6th side. It screwed into a solid "cold bar" that had Freon piped through it. There were "cold plates" inserted between modules. All of this removed the heat from the module quickly. The PCBs are actually in a miniature refrigerator. The circuits had thermal compensation built in for the memory modules. Seymour had thought of tight loops and used them to test memory during design. Many of the field memory tests were coded to as tight as possible to stress the memory. Halt and Catch fire was a joke. I never heard of 7600 catching fire. We had a chassis melt once, when the refrigeration stopped and the fail safes all failed. But no fires. Billy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 17 17:13:38 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:13:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK07 questions In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22B3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Jan 17, 6 10:50:19 pm Message-ID: > > I will first describe the results that I saw with looking at > the LEDs on the boards in the small rack inside the RK07 drive. > = > > A small LED on the outer board (M9016) is always ON. That may be something as trivial as power... > In the stand-by condition the UNLD HDS LED is ON. Good. This means the drive is trying, or has, unloaded the heads (i.e. off the disks totally) > When I load a pack, and push the LOAD button, the LEDs > SPEED OK and BRUSH go ON after approx 15 seconds. The former means the spindle motor is up to speed, the latter means it's starting the brush cycle (where it sweeps the platter with the brushes driven by that little synchronous motor at the rear right of the pack, if you've not been sensible enough to remove the brushes). > A number of seconds later the LEDs BRUSH and UNLD HDS go OFF. Right, it's finished the brush cycle, it's going to load the heads. > At that same time the LEDs LD HDS en FWD go ON and the heads Which is now doing. FWD means forward movement of the heads, of course. > move toward the centre of the spindle. When the head has > reached that position, the LEDs LD HDS and FWD go OFF, and > RTZ and REV go ON. The head moves back, and when the heads OK, it's doing REVerse movement to the heads to Return To Zero (cylinder). Exactly what it should be doing. > are on "track 0" (this is an assumption) those two LEDs go OFF > too. Only the SPEED OK LED is still ON. This sounds right.... > --- > I will have to boot RT11 to tell the error message. > AFAIK, you can not format the pack, only do an INIT. Are you sure about that? You can't recover a bulk-erased pack because you can't rebuild the servo surface, but this drive has a separate servo surface so there's no good reason why you couldn't reformat the data surfaces. I've not tried it, though. > = > > I did not check the cable to the controller and to the next drive, > but I am pretty sure they are in the port A connections. As the > second drive is OFF (and has the terminator), and the controller > is OFF, I guess that this does not interfere with the load sequence > getting to the READY lamp ON state. It's been several years since I fiddled with one of thsese (too many machines, too little time...) but something in the back of my mind says that one of the lamps comes on when the controller accesses the drive for the first time. It may just be the lamp in the 'A' button. > = > > I can see the motor that drives the spindle runs, and the belt is OK. > It must be driving the platters, otherwise I think the SPEED OK LED > would not turn ON. Right. > = > > Indeed, there are 4 heads. The wires from one is clearly connected to a > different board, so that must be the servo data. > I will do your experiment, Tony. > And no, I will not blame you if the heads crash :-) Good luck! > = > > Good to hear that no FAULT light ON is OK. > = > > I can also try the second drive this weekend, but I must remove the > brushes from that drive first. I have a third drive (!) but then > I must move stuff around to get to it ... I beleive you do need to keep the motor and microswitch (and the operating cam, etc) in the drive. Just remove the brushes themselves from the ends of the arms. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 17 17:14:40 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:14:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sort of OT; new eBay phish In-Reply-To: <43CD6A30.5040405@internet1.net> from "C Fernandez" at Jan 17, 6 05:05:36 pm Message-ID: > I use Firefox, which does show me where a link goes when I put the mouse > pointer over it. I didn't mention it, but it's one of first things I > look for, when I'm presented with a link. Sure, but it's a lot easier to assume it's genuine, or click by accident, than to have to type in the link and not notice it's going somewhere totally wrong. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 17 17:19:15 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:19:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK07 questions In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22B4@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Jan 17, 6 11:18:13 pm Message-ID: > > Ok, I was so curious that I did the test with the servo head > disconnected. It is sure a different movement! Excellent. This means it's reading something from the servo surface, and that your pack has not been bulk-erased. > First let me describe the head movement in more detail. > In stand-by, the heads are in what I call the "home" position. > When the movement starts, the heads come out of the home position > at a moderate speed, and when the heads are at "track 0", the > speed drops and the heads move at a slower speed towards the > centre of the pack. Then the movement stops, and starts at that > same slow speed towards the home position. However, the heads > stop at what I call that "track 0" position, and stay there > until I press the LOAD button again. Then the heads move *fast* > to the home position. One thing you should realise at this point is that the RK07 positioner servo is complciated. No, correct that, it's _very_ complicated. I have the printset (is it on bitsavers?), I remember going through it once. IIRC, there are actually 3 feedback loops. One from the error signal from the servo head when it should be on-cylinder. One from an optical transducer (load/unload?). And one from a magnetic velocity transducer inside the magnet assembly. > = > > Now with the servo head disconnected ... > To quote 'Allo Allo': "listen very carefully, I will do this > only once", well sort-of :-) > The heads move at the moderate speed to "track 0", but stay at > that speed while the heads move to the centre. That movement now In other words it's not picked up any signal from the servo surface. The head movement is controller by ther other 2 loops, which explains the fast, but not ridiculously fast movement. > looks a lot faster! At the centre the movement stops, and the > heads move at that speed (or was it even faster?) not to the > "track 0" position, but to the home position. It's failed to find any servo data. I think the optical sensor indicates it's got to the spindle, so it does an emergency unload and gives the error. So, looks like the drive is basically working. If there is a fault, it's in one of the relatively simple sections.. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 17 17:44:07 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 16:44:07 -0700 Subject: Stumbled across Ed Thelen's site today Message-ID: ....while looking for maps of Nike missile bases :-) At any rate, he's got a lot of computing ephemera online that doesn't look like its duplicated elsewhere. This is probably "old news" to you guys, particularly since Al Kossow is quoted at the bottom of the page, but I found it cool anyway. :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 17 18:10:23 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 16:10:23 -0800 Subject: Core overheating In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601171610230305.018E1DEA@mail.sydex.com> On 1/17/2006 at 2:33 PM Billy Pettit wrote: >Halt and Catch fire was a joke. I never heard of 7600 catching fire. We >had a chassis melt once, when the refrigeration stopped and the fail safes >all failed. But no fires. No, but programmers were warned that very tight (one instruction) loops on the 7600 PPU's could precipitate parity errors. IIRC, each PPU had the 27.5 nsec core in a 2-way interleave. For the time, 27.5 nsec was very fast core and the interleave pretty much guaranteed a maximum duty cycle. Contrast with the 6600 that used, what, 1 usec core? At least that's my recollection. A parity error is about as close as you can get to catching fire. I've seen jammed 512 printers that smelled like they were about to catch fire, however. Cheers, Chuck From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jan 17 18:20:55 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:20:55 -0500 Subject: Recent history: Apple/Sun merger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060117181452.03c980e0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Richard may have mentioned these words: >In article <000501c61786$e6fec2b0$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP>, > "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" writes: > > > http://www.theregister.com/2006/01/12/sun_apple_snapple/ > >Would you describe McNealy as "charismatic"? He seems like such a >bore to me whenever I see video of him talking on anything. To some, Suns are more boring than Apples... Personally, I'd much rather meet McNealy in person than Jobs. >There's no doubt that Jobs is charismatic, but standing next to him >McNealy looks like a corpse. But where was Jobs during the Micro$haft hearings? McNealy was there every day - about the only person that was willing to stand toe-to-toe with Gates; even Jobs is afraid to do that. Let's turn the tables a second - who would you put money on if each were to strap on ice-hockey skates? Mine would be on McNealy... ;-) So... what if Jobs "vibrates"[1] on the presentation dais compared to McNealy? McNealy would definitely kick Job's bum in a lot of other areas... and IMHO, the only difference right now between Sun & Apple is Sun didn't "get lucky" with the iPod - which is the only thing that *finally* allowed Jobs to post a profit higher than Gil Amelio. Well, that, and Sun makes a much better server. They've been doing it a lot longer, so that shouldn't shock anyone. But this is neither here nor there, nor anywhere else for that matter. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] IMHO, I dislike watching Jobs give presentations - to me, he acts like a bipolar Chihuahua... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From Laurence.Cuffe at ucd.ie Tue Jan 17 18:44:12 2006 From: Laurence.Cuffe at ucd.ie (Laurence Cuffe) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 00:44:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sort of OT; new eBay phish In-Reply-To: References: <43CC4D92.3040802@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:16 pm Subject: Re: Sort of OT; new eBay phish > > > > A quick warning because I know a lot of y'all deal > extensively on > > eBay, and I obviously hadn't seen this one before. > > > > I just got a phished "My Messages" eBay email from "a > potential > > buyer". It purported to be a question about a listed item, and > the > > links to the listing took me to a fake login page. It's very > slick, I > > wasn't paying attention and I fell for it. Yeah, its very easy. I almost fell for this one myself. I'd imeediatly change your ebay password. Also thing I now make a habit of is entering a wrong password first, every time I'm asked for one. I think this very slightly raises my security level. All the best Larry Cuffe > > I'm sure I'll get caught now... > > I stick with ancient e-mail software that doesn't let ne click on > links. > That doesn't attempt to decode/dsipaly html. And which certaily > doesn't > run executable programs (in any language). > > I am less likely to get caught by something like this because I > will spot > that the link doesn't go to ebay.co.uk or wherever, but goes to > some > totally unknown site. At which point I am pretty sure it's fraudulent > > -tony > From fernande at internet1.net Tue Jan 17 19:39:40 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:39:40 -0500 Subject: Sort of OT; new eBay phish In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CD9C5C.4070304@internet1.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Sure, but it's a lot easier to assume it's genuine, or click by accident, > than to have to type in the link and not notice it's going somewhere > totally wrong. I have to cut and paste any links I get in an email. I'm not sure why. Maybe becasue I have Windows so stripped down, or maybe becasue I don't use M$ IE. Firefox works pretty well for me. It's sort of a midpoint between full manual (your setup) and full auto (the M$ way). Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 17 19:45:11 2006 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:45:11 -0800 Subject: Color keytops... In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22B3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22B3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <43CD9DA7.3000201@deltasoft.com> Is there any place to purchase colored keytops for a Model M keyboard? I recall seeing in the distant past colored keytops for the ALT, SHIFT, CTRL, etc. keys. Google hasn't been much help either. tnx! g. -- -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 17 19:59:38 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:59:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Color keytops... In-Reply-To: <43CD9DA7.3000201@deltasoft.com> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22B3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <43CD9DA7.3000201@deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <20060117175830.Q22969@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Gene Buckle wrote: > Is there any place to purchase colored keytops for a Model M keyboard? > I recall seeing in the distant past colored keytops for the ALT, SHIFT, > CTRL, etc. keys. Google hasn't been much help either. > tnx! There used to be third party ones specifically for use with Word-Pervert; try including WordPerfect in your searches From rcini at optonline.net Tue Jan 17 20:03:45 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:03:45 -0500 Subject: Message from Forrest Mims Message-ID: <003701c61bd3$6a2d9760$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I received an interesting message from Forrest Mims today so I thought I'd pass it on: Rich From: FMims@ To: rcini@ CC: forrest.mims@ Subject: Forrest Mims to Rich's classic computing lab Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 11:12:28 EST Dear Rich, Great web site. Glad to see what you are doing. Regarding the date MITS was founded, our first meeting was in Ed Robert's kitchen at 4809 Palo Duro, NE, in Albuquerque shortly after my first article on a model rocket light flasher was published in the September 1969 issue of MODEL ROCKETRY. Our first product was the TLF-1 model rocket light flasher, which was based on my design. We incorporated in January 1970, each of us providing a $100 check for startup funds. My check was written in the lawyer's office. It is dated "16 Jan 1970." Ed may have said we began in 1968 because he had founded Reliance Engineering earlier. We had been talking about starting a company in 1968, also, but did not have a reasonable product idea until my 1969 light flasher. I'm sending these details because of the interest in the history of MITS and a forthcoming museum exhibit in Albuquerque that will cover the history of the PC. Please feel free to use any of this if you like. And best wishes for your web site. Best regards, Forrest Forrest M. Mims III www.forrestmims.org www.sunandsky.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 17 20:06:20 2006 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 18:06:20 -0800 Subject: Color keytops... In-Reply-To: <20060117175830.Q22969@shell.lmi.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22B3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <43CD9DA7.3000201@deltasoft.com> <20060117175830.Q22969@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <43CDA29C.6040205@deltasoft.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Gene Buckle wrote: > >>Is there any place to purchase colored keytops for a Model M keyboard? >>I recall seeing in the distant past colored keytops for the ALT, SHIFT, >>CTRL, etc. keys. Google hasn't been much help either. >>tnx! > > > There used to be third party ones specifically for use with Word-Pervert; > > try including WordPerfect in your searches > > Thanks for the clue. Unfortunately all the results are for stickers, not actual key tops. g. -- -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Jan 17 20:13:50 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:13:50 -0600 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 Message-ID: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> I've been on a little purchasing kick lately and I finally have MS MASM 6.1 with paper docs. I'd like to know what was fixed between 6.1 and the later versions, such as 6.11 and 6.14. Can any of you who have those later versions send me the 'readme' or scan any paper sheets that might have described the differences? When I grow up, I'm going to create BIOS ROM extensions for ancient hardware ... Thanks, Mike From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jan 17 20:43:13 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:43:13 -0600 Subject: batch on rt11 w/tsx+ Message-ID: <003f01c61bd8$eda8b3e0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> I was wondering if somone knew the answer to this... is BATCH supported on RT11 that is running TSX+? I know it's supported on RT11, but I thought I saw somewhere that once you loaded TSX+ that you couldn't run BATCH because of some conflict. Anyone know the straight scoop on this? Jay West From bear at typewritten.org Tue Jan 17 21:38:45 2006 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:38:45 -0800 Subject: Color keytops... In-Reply-To: <20060117175830.Q22969@shell.lmi.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22B3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <43CD9DA7.3000201@deltasoft.com> <20060117175830.Q22969@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2006, at 5:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Is there any place to purchase colored keytops for a Model M >> keyboard? >> I recall seeing in the distant past colored keytops for the ALT, >> SHIFT, >> CTRL, etc. keys. Google hasn't been much help either. >> tnx! > > There used to be third party ones specifically for use with Word- > Pervert; Hooleon used to be the company for custom keycaps. A quick search shows they're still around: http://www.hooleon.com ok bear From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 17 21:49:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:49:32 -0800 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> References: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> On 1/17/2006 at 8:13 PM Michael B. Brutman wrote: >I've been on a little purchasing kick lately and I finally have MS MASM >6.1 with paper docs. I'd like to know what was fixed between 6.1 and >the later versions, such as 6.11 and 6.14. Can any of you who have >those later versions send me the 'readme' or scan any paper sheets that >might have described the differences? Buy? I picked up the Windows Server 2003 SP1 DDK back in December for the price of a (200 MB) download from microsoft.com. It includes both ML 7.10.4035 and ML64 8.00.40310.39 for AMD IA64. It also includes C++ 14.00.40310.41 for AMD64 and C++ 13.10.4035 for 80x86. Get it here: http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/ddk/orderddkcd.mspx Such a deal! Cheers, Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Jan 17 22:31:41 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:31:41 -0600 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> References: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> Message-ID: <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Buy? I picked up the Windows Server 2003 SP1 DDK back in December for the > price of a (200 MB) download from microsoft.com. It includes both ML > 7.10.4035 and ML64 8.00.40310.39 for AMD IA64. It also includes C++ > 14.00.40310.41 for AMD64 and C++ 13.10.4035 for 80x86. > > Get it here: > > http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/ddk/orderddkcd.mspx > > Such a deal! > > Cheers, > Chuck > > Thanks for the tip. The nice thing about the old crusty version that I picked up is that it runs on an old DOS PC and it has the paper docs. I'm not ancient, but online docs suck compared to paper. Mike From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 17 22:44:07 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:44:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at "Jan 17, 6 10:31:41 pm" Message-ID: <200601180444.UAA16654@floodgap.com> > > Buy? I picked up the Windows Server 2003 SP1 DDK back in December for the > > price of a (200 MB) download from microsoft.com. It includes both ML > > 7.10.4035 and ML64 8.00.40310.39 for AMD IA64. It also includes C++ > > 14.00.40310.41 for AMD64 and C++ 13.10.4035 for 80x86. > > http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/ddk/orderddkcd.mspx > Thanks for the tip. The nice thing about the old crusty version that I > picked up is that it runs on an old DOS PC and it has the paper docs. > I'm not ancient, but online docs suck compared to paper. Download option? It wants me to buy the CD (admittedly just for S&H, but I'd rather just download it). Do you have a link to the download area? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When in doubt, take a pawn. -- Mission: Impossible ("Crack-Up") ------------ From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Jan 17 22:44:43 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:44:43 -0500 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> References: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20060117234443.14eeeb12.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:31:41 -0600 "Michael B. Brutman" wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Buy? I picked up the Windows Server 2003 SP1 DDK back in December for the > > price of a (200 MB) download from microsoft.com. It includes both ML > > 7.10.4035 and ML64 8.00.40310.39 for AMD IA64. It also includes C++ > > 14.00.40310.41 for AMD64 and C++ 13.10.4035 for 80x86. > > > > Get it here: > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/ddk/orderddkcd.mspx > > > > Such a deal! > > > > Cheers, > > Chuck > > > > > > Thanks for the tip. The nice thing about the old crusty version that I > picked up is that it runs on an old DOS PC and it has the paper docs. > I'm not ancient, but online docs suck compared to paper. > I have a version of MASM old enough (4.0) that it fits, and runs, on my HP95 lx palmtop. It only has a tiny ram drive (512K). One of the cool things about the HP95 is that they include DEBUG in the ROM. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jan 17 23:48:02 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:48:02 -0800 Subject: batch on RT11 w/TSX+ In-Reply-To: <003f01c61bd8$eda8b3e0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> References: <003f01c61bd8$eda8b3e0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Message-ID: <200601172148.02460.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 17 January 2006 18:43, Jay West wrote: > I was wondering if somone knew the answer to this... is BATCH supported on > RT11 that is running TSX+? I know it's supported on RT11, but I thought I > saw somewhere that once you loaded TSX+ that you couldn't run BATCH because > of some conflict. Anyone know the straight scoop on this? BA (the RT resident batch hander) is NOT supported under TSX-Plus. However TSX-Plus supports detached jobs, which in my opinion, are much better. If you have the TSX-Plus Systems Manager Guide and the TSX-Plus Programmers Reference Guide you can get more info on this. I'm almost ready to release an unlocked version of TSX-Plus 6.5 for collectors - including all the documentation. I've tested the release on my 11/34A and am about to test it on my 11/83 before I release it to the collector world. Blasted corporate Y/E stuff and taxes are taking my time right now - I filed 6 business tax forms today - and I haven't even worked with my accountant on my Y/E Corporate Taxes yet. Sigh... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 17 23:51:49 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:51:49 -0800 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <200601180444.UAA16654@floodgap.com> References: <200601180444.UAA16654@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200601172151490305.02C6B1E6@mail.sydex.com> On 1/17/2006 at 8:44 PM Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Download option? It wants me to buy the CD (admittedly just for S&H, but >I'd >rather just download it). Do you have a link to the download area? Looks like good ol' MS removed that at the beginning of the year (who knows why). But try the KMDF iso: http://download.microsoft.com/download/3/b/5/3b519887-c4af-4ab3-9578-cec48cc 84d94/WDFv10.iso That's free and supposedly contains the DDK tools, but I haven't verified that it does (just what I heard). About a 200 MB download, but MS has lots of bandwidth. Cheers, Chuck From brian at quarterbyte.com Wed Jan 18 00:37:13 2006 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:37:13 -0800 Subject: IBM 2520 card read punch available Message-ID: <43CD7199.19240.3CD46032@localhost> Hi, Anyone interested in an IBM 2520 card read/punch? This one is not in great shape -- missing a couple of SLT cards, buttons, and the card weight. But it's nice and heavy -- probably 600-800#. This model has a channel interface built in. Have not been able to locate schematics/maintenance docs. Location is Oakland, CA. Can be palletized if you want to have it shipped. If interested let me know ASAP, else I'll have to yank what parts I can and then send it off to the glue factory. Brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel _| _| _| Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 _| _| _| Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian at quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 18 00:41:58 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 00:41:58 -0600 Subject: batch on RT11 w/TSX+ References: <003f01c61bd8$eda8b3e0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> <200601172148.02460.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <001b01c61bfa$480af750$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Lyle wrote... > BA (the RT resident batch hander) is NOT supported under TSX-Plus. Yeah, that's what I thought. I was curious WHY the BA handler wasn't supported, and if it could be made to work. > However > TSX-Plus supports detached jobs, which in my opinion, are much better. If > you > have the TSX-Plus Systems Manager Guide and the TSX-Plus Programmers > Reference Guide you can get more info on this. I have all the manuals (hard copy originals) I got from S&H about 5 or 6 years ago. I'm familiar with detached jobs in TSX+ , but I like the BATCH system :) > I'm almost ready to release an unlocked version of TSX-Plus 6.5 for > collectors > - including all the documentation. I've tested the release on my 11/34A > and > am about to test it on my 11/83 before I release it to the collector > world. That's awesome. I have a legit copy of an older version. Thus, I'm interested in an upgrade and the layered products! Thanks Lyle!! Jay From trag at io.com Tue Jan 17 13:44:00 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 13:44:00 -0600 Subject: Stupid Mac Ethernet question In-Reply-To: <200601171800.k0HI0WFN068373@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601171800.k0HI0WFN068373@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 18:10:28 -0500 >From: "Richard A. Cini" >Subject: Stupid Mac Ethernet question > I just recently upgraded the network cabling in my house to 5e >as part of some new construction, and I also upgraded the networking >components. Now, all of my normal machines run at 100 full duplex. Anyway. > > The strangest thing happened to my Mac IIci - the Ethernet >connection no longer works. I don't even get a link light on the new switch >(a Cisco/Linksys switch). However, when I plug the Mac into a plain old 10BT >hub and then uplink it to the switch, I at least get a link light. The solution (intervening 10Mbps hub) recommended by the other posters is the way to go--or change to a different ethernet card. This is a well-known (within vintage Mac circles) issue with older Asante ethernet cards. For some reason the 10/100 negotiation fails to work properly and the old 10Mbps card doesn't make a connection. Or you could try to find one of the old Asante or Farallon 10/100 NuBus ethernet cards. They seem to go for considerably more than the usual market value of the IIci. :-) Jeff Walther From evan947 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 17 20:22:23 2006 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (Evan) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:22:23 -0500 Subject: Message from Forrest Mims In-Reply-To: <003701c61bd3$6a2d9760$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <001201c61bd6$04e3b120$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Good stuff, thanks for sharing. What's this web site of yours he mentioned? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:04 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'; midatlanticretro at yahoogroups.com Subject: Message from Forrest Mims All: I received an interesting message from Forrest Mims today so I thought I'd pass it on: Rich From: FMims@ To: rcini@ CC: forrest.mims@ Subject: Forrest Mims to Rich's classic computing lab Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 11:12:28 EST Dear Rich, Great web site. Glad to see what you are doing. Regarding the date MITS was founded, our first meeting was in Ed Robert's kitchen at 4809 Palo Duro, NE, in Albuquerque shortly after my first article on a model rocket light flasher was published in the September 1969 issue of MODEL ROCKETRY. Our first product was the TLF-1 model rocket light flasher, which was based on my design. We incorporated in January 1970, each of us providing a $100 check for startup funds. My check was written in the lawyer's office. It is dated "16 Jan 1970." Ed may have said we began in 1968 because he had founded Reliance Engineering earlier. We had been talking about starting a company in 1968, also, but did not have a reasonable product idea until my 1969 light flasher. I'm sending these details because of the interest in the history of MITS and a forthcoming museum exhibit in Albuquerque that will cover the history of the PC. Please feel free to use any of this if you like. And best wishes for your web site. Best regards, Forrest Forrest M. Mims III www.forrestmims.org www.sunandsky.org From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 18 02:17:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 00:17:14 -0800 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <20060117234443.14eeeb12.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> <20060117234443.14eeeb12.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200601180017140348.034BD296@mail.sydex.com> On 1/17/2006 at 11:44 PM Scott Stevens wrote: >I have a version of MASM old enough (4.0) that it fits, and runs, >on my HP95 lx palmtop. It only has a tiny ram drive (512K). Most of my code nowadays is 32-bit, so the old MASM's don't work. I've got MASM going back to the really terrible 1.0 and just about every major version after that. Cheers, Chuck From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Jan 18 03:37:48 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:37:48 +0100 Subject: RK07 questions Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2622@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Tony wrote: > ... the latter means it's starting the brush cycle (where it > sweeps the platter with the brushes driven by that little > synchronous motor at the rear right of the pack, if you've > not been sensible enough to remove the brushes). :-) The brushes themselves are indeed removed from the arms, but I left the motor/arms assembly to keep the original state. > Exactly what it should be doing. Thanks! Good to hear. > Are you sure about that? You can't recover a bulk-erased pack > because you can't rebuild the servo surface, but this drive > has a separate servo surface so there's no good reason why > you couldn't reformat the data surfaces. > I've not tried it, though. True, just like the RL01/RL02 there is a separate servo track on the platters of the RK06/RK07. Indeed, I did try the .FORMAT command, but RT11 reported that the command was not available for the device, or something like that. ".INIT" gave me an error like the ".DIR" command. You are correct that you can format the RK07! It does not write the servo tracks ("impossible"), but it does write the data *and* the headers. However, that format command is not in RT11, but it is in XXDP. Edward tried his RK07 last evening, and after he loaded a pack (no controller connected at all), he saw the same events (LEDs and head movement), but on his drive the READY lamp illuminated. I have the field maintenance print set ... > It's been several years since I fiddled with one of thsese > (too many machines, too little time...) but something in the > back of my mind says that one of the lamps comes on when the > controller accesses the drive for the first time. It may just > be the lamp in the 'A' button. Correct. As Edward saw, the READY lamp must go ON when the heads are on track 0. I have read in the RK611 controller manual (damn, I can't find that one now!) that the "A" or "B" indicator is lit when the controller attached to the channel does an access. Time to test the drive without any cabling (to copy the exact condition that Edward has), and check the cables to the controller. Then try to run some of the RK611/RK07 XXDP programs! Perhaps they can tell something before I grab the DVM and scope ... thanks, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jan 18 04:21:07 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 05:21:07 -0500 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 References: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> Message-ID: <007401c61c18$e59b9790$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael B. Brutman" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 11:31 PM Subject: Re: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 > > Thanks for the tip. The nice thing about the old crusty version that I > picked up is that it runs on an old DOS PC and it has the paper docs. > I'm not ancient, but online docs suck compared to paper. > > > Mike That's the same reason I recently purchased MS Visual Basic 3.0 Pro, a nice stack of paper manuals (compared to the 5.0 I purchased years ago which was mostly just a cdrom and a small booklet). For some reason I feel like messing around with 16 bit Windows 3.1 programming lately. From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Jan 18 08:18:00 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:18:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sort of OT; new eBay phish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060118141800.074375812A@mail.wordstock.com> > > > I stick with ancient e-mail software that doesn't let ne click on links. > That doesn't attempt to decode/dsipaly html. And which certaily doesn't > run executable programs (in any language). > > I am less likely to get caught by something like this because I will spot > that the link doesn't go to ebay.co.uk or wherever, but goes to some > totally unknown site. At which point I am pretty sure it's fraudulent > I use elm for my work email which does the same as you describe. For personal email I use Thunderbird which will show the full link when your mouse pointer hovers over it. (Plus you can also turn off automatic picture get from the internet) Cheers, Bryan From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 18 09:16:27 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 07:16:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sort of OT; new eBay phish In-Reply-To: <20060118141800.074375812A@mail.wordstock.com> from Bryan Pope at "Jan 18, 6 09:18:00 am" Message-ID: <200601181516.HAA13302@floodgap.com> > I use elm for my work email which does the same as you describe. I use elm for my mail, period, which does the same as you describe. :) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never send a human to do a machine's job. -- "The Matrix" ------------------ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jan 18 10:06:57 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:06:57 Subject: AC power on front panels Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060118100657.11c762d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:29 AM 1/17/06 +0100, you wrote: >Thanks for that remark, Pete! >I did not want to go into "pedantic" mode, but I was indeed >thinking about the capacitors in the EMI filter, but thought >that chances are very slim that they fail. That hasn't been my experience. I've had EMI filters fail in two HP 1000s, my BBC Acorn and a couple of other vintage computers. I also live in the lightning capital of the world (central Florida) and lightning doesn't care if it's turned off or not so I unplug everything when I've not using it. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jan 18 10:02:12 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:02:12 Subject: Zemco CompuCruise In-Reply-To: <000501c61a60$07a27df0$040aa8c0@acer81080ea37f> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060118100212.11c7bdfa@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I've tried to track down Zemco in the last year or so but they seem to be long gone. But E-bay usually has a fair amount of Zemco equipment listed on it. I also OCCASIONALLY find Zemco stuff at hamfest. Joe At 10:45 PM 1/15/06 -0700, you wrote: >I am trying to find parts for the older CompuCruise controls. >Can you help me. >Warren Bender >Leduc Alberta Canada >lwbender at shaw.ca > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jan 18 11:10:08 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:10:08 Subject: hp 6286a supply In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20060116114353.4f07c610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060118111008.4cdf8298@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:27 AM 1/17/06 +0000, you wrote: >> >> At 01:04 PM 1/13/06 -0700, you wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> >I have found in a number of supplies the front panel adjustable pots >> >open up or the wiper go south. This will make the output go to max. >> >Another problem is small electrolytic caps in the voltage control >> >circuit going bad. Often, blindly shotgunning all the small caps will >> >make things work for another 15 years (sorry Tony...). >> >> >> Don't apologize. There's nothing wrong with that approach. If one cap has >> failed, it's mostly likely that the other's aren't far behind. > >This is a constant flamewar in the UK vintage radio magazines... > >I would be careful shotgunning parts. Firstly that you don't introduce >more faults (either by using unsuitable capacitors or mis-connecing >them). Secondly that you don't cause problems by changing a capacitor in >a timing cirucit and having to re-align things). I think both of those would apply without having to state the obvious. > >And of course you do need to be able to trace the fault 'properly' if >changing the capacitors doens't fix it. > >My expeireince with old HP instruments (mostly from their decktop >calculators) is that capacitors are not a major source of problems. That usually true of HP gear but it's a BIG problem in Tektronix and other brands. I've found that I can't leave a Tektronix scope of the 465 vintage powered off for very long without them developing shorted capacitors. I had a Tek 465 that I only used occasionally and everytime that I turned it on (several months apart) it had a new capacitor problem. That went on for over two years till I finally gave up on it and found a newer scope (Tek 2445). I suppose the difference is due to the different type/brand of caps that HP and Tektronix used. FWIW I like the Tek scopes better than HP scopes but the HPs hold up better. Joe From fernande at internet1.net Wed Jan 18 11:38:46 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:38:46 -0500 Subject: Sort of OT; new eBay phish In-Reply-To: <20060118141800.074375812A@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060118141800.074375812A@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <43CE7D26.9070704@internet1.net> Bryan Pope wrote: > I use elm for my work email which does the same as you describe. For > personal email I use Thunderbird which will show the full link when > your mouse pointer hovers over it. (Plus you can also turn off > automatic picture get from the internet) oops, I said I use Firefox earlier..... I meant Thunderbird. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 18 12:34:34 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:34:34 -0700 Subject: Color keytops... In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Jan 2006 18:06:20 -0800. <43CDA29C.6040205@deltasoft.com> Message-ID: I remember keytops that had phrases on them like "More Beer" and "PANIC" and so-on :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 18 13:03:53 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:03:53 -0600 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history Message-ID: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> There is a bit of a spat going on in a few forums regarding color index #6 of IBM CGA. The old-timers know that it is brown from experience and existing working hardware; the newbies (writing or using emulators) are unwilling to accept that and are instead making CGA palettes with dark yellow instead of brown. Can anyone give me the history on why #6 is brown? Was it a design mistake, or intentional? Is it a property of the monitor or something? I can't find anything of substance to offer the newbies to convince them otherwise; digital photos can be accused of being doctored or miscalibrated (and yet is a digital photo showing "yellow" that started this whole thing). About the only thing I can think of to offer as proof is that the text colors in the VGA palette show brown, and IBM wouldn't have done something like that by mistake -- or were they perpetuating a mistake? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jan 18 13:10:26 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:10:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> References: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200601181912.OAA06446@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...]; the newbies (writing or using emulators) are unwilling to > accept that and are instead making CGA palettes with dark yellow > instead of brown. In my experience, dark yellow *is* brown. (At least as far as CRT colours go.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Jan 18 13:43:29 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:43:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> References: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <19056.144.160.5.25.1137613409.squirrel@mail.athenet.net> > There is a bit of a spat going on in a few forums regarding color index > #6 of IBM CGA. The old-timers know that it is brown from experience and > existing working hardware; the newbies (writing or using emulators) are > unwilling to accept that and are instead making CGA palettes with dark > yellow instead of brown. > > Can anyone give me the history on why #6 is brown? Was it a design > mistake, or intentional? Is it a property of the monitor or something? > > I can't find anything of substance to offer the newbies to convince them > otherwise; digital photos can be accused of being doctored or > miscalibrated (and yet is a digital photo showing "yellow" that started > this whole thing). About the only thing I can think of to offer as > proof is that the text colors in the VGA palette show brown, and IBM > wouldn't have done something like that by mistake -- or were they > perpetuating a mistake? My recall of the color pallete in CGA mode was that the "dark" versions of the main colors were a bit flip from the main colors and that "brown" really was "dark yellow." You could call it dark yellow all you wanted (and some docs did) but once painted on the screen, it was brown. I think white with the corresponding bit set (cleared?) was gray. Or was dark gray equivalent to black...? I forget. I recall that something about it was logically wierd and didn't make sense. I have some docs at home I should dig through and see if I can find this. Paper docs are much less subject to later revision than google searches... -T From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 18 13:45:44 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:45:44 -0600 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <200601181912.OAA06446@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> <200601181912.OAA06446@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43CE9AE8.2040101@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: >>[...]; the newbies (writing or using emulators) are unwilling to >>accept that and are instead making CGA palettes with dark yellow >>instead of brown. > > In my experience, dark yellow *is* brown. (At least as far as CRT > colours go.) That doesn't help :-) For reference, see the chart here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_Graphics_Adapter#The_CGA_color_palette The color listed in that chart for "brown" is what I see on all 6 of my CGA monitors and what I've remembered since 1983. The color listed as "IBM 5153" is incorrect and that's what I'm trying to get history on so that I can convince him otherwise. I'm puzzled why people who have never seen the hardware are so driven to make "factual" statements about it...? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jan 18 14:06:23 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:06:23 +0100 Subject: pertec tape drive interface card for pdp-11/03? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060118210623.42074fbd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:25:47 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > DEC probably didn't make one at that time. although IIRC the TSV05 was > a Pertec controller that went with the TS05 magtape (a rebadged Cipher > 880) The DEC TSV05 M7206 / M7206-PA is identical to the Emulex QT13 / QT14. They look identical and a copy of the Emulex QT13 / QT14 firmware runs in the DEC TSV05 M7206 / M7206-PA. The benefit of the Emulex firmware is the ability to switch between TSV05 emulation and TMSCP where the DEC firmware is castrated to TSV05 only. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Jan 18 14:13:41 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:13:41 -0800 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> References: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1137615221.43cea175578b8@webmail.secure-wi.com> I'm not sure if my previous message made it or not, so please ignore this if it is a dupe. If you look at IBM documentation (especially the BASIC manuals from the era) it is clearly listed as Brown, not dark yellow. End of discussion? Yes, the lower numbered colors are just dimmer versions of the upper colors. But it still looks brown to me if I fire up my PCjr, sitting right here next to me. Perhaps the offending person should tone the brightness setting down? They are getting sunburnt from having it up so high. From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 18 14:37:01 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:37:01 -0600 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <1137615221.43cea175578b8@webmail.secure-wi.com> References: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> <1137615221.43cea175578b8@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <43CEA6ED.3040409@oldskool.org> mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: > If you look at IBM documentation (especially the BASIC manuals from the era) it > is clearly listed as Brown, not dark yellow. Is it possible for you to email me a scan of this? I'm not sure I have anything official IBM that states that. > End of discussion? With a scan, it would be :-) > Perhaps the offending person should tone the brightness setting down? Yes, but then that leaves things open to interpretation, and that's what I'm trying to avoid (it was interpretation that led to the whole mess in the first place). Sorry if this seems like a silly issue to everyone, but the potential for having the wrong colors in all 5150-style emulators is a big deal to me. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Jan 18 15:10:54 2006 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:10:54 -0500 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> References: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060118160021.04111be8@mail.earthlink.net> Brown was really brown on an IBM display anyway. It wasn't just a darker color as other people had suggested. The cheaper rip off monitors typically did not do "true" IBM brown. Why IBM made this a design requirement, I have no idea. If I have time, I will analyze the IBM color CGA monitor schematics I have. IBM went to a LOT of trouble to combine signals for I, B, at 0 and R and G at 1 to get Brown. I At 02:03 PM 1/18/2006, Jim Leonard wrote: >There is a bit of a spat going on in a few forums regarding color >index #6 of IBM CGA. The old-timers know that it is brown from >experience and existing working hardware; the newbies (writing or >using emulators) are unwilling to accept that and are instead making >CGA palettes with dark yellow instead of brown. > >Can anyone give me the history on why #6 is brown? Was it a design >mistake, or intentional? Is it a property of the monitor or something? > >I can't find anything of substance to offer the newbies to convince >them otherwise; digital photos can be accused of being doctored or >miscalibrated (and yet is a digital photo showing "yellow" that >started this whole thing). About the only thing I can think of to >offer as proof is that the text colors in the VGA palette show >brown, and IBM wouldn't have done something like that by mistake -- >or were they perpetuating a mistake? >-- >Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ >Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ >Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Jan 18 15:16:56 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 22:16:56 +0100 Subject: RX11 emulator fun ... Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22C1@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi all, just a good feeling to share ... I finished the prototype setup for the RX11 emulator of Pete McCollum. I installed his design together with the M105 and M7821 in my 11/34. I first booted RT11 (v5) from RL02. RXEMU is running on a PC that is connected to Pete's board via the parallel port. (A note on that PC at the end...) ".SH DEV" shows "DX Installed 177170 264". Then I did ".DIR DX0:" , and behold, I got the list output from DX0: !! Then I entered ".BOOT /FOR DX0:" ... OK, that takes some time, but then I got "RT-11SJ V04.00A". COOL !! Pete's RX11 emulator works great. I also loaded the small bootstrap that Pete included in the ZIP file into the memory of the just turned on 11/34. When I start the loaded code, it boots right away from "nothing" from the virtual RX01 floppy on the PC! What fun !! A note on the PC that I use to run RXEMU .... it is a Toshiba Libretto 100CT !!! The size of that "sub-notebook" is about the same size as a VHS cassette. I was laughing to see the big PDP-11/34 boot from the tiny Libretto :-) I took a picture. If it's of resonable quality I will post a link. In one word: GREAT !!! - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 18 15:19:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:19:26 -0800 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <1137615221.43cea175578b8@webmail.secure-wi.com> References: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> <1137615221.43cea175578b8@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <200601181319260015.0617F076@10.0.0.252> On 1/18/2006 at 12:13 PM mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: >If you look at IBM documentation (especially the BASIC manuals from the >era) it >is clearly listed as Brown, not dark yellow. > >End of discussion? The IBM CGA monitor displayed brown, not yellow. And dark yellow is NOT brown. Give me a couple of hours and I'll research the matter in my O&A manuals. But brown, not yellow. Cheers, Chuck From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Jan 18 15:22:46 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 22:22:46 +0100 Subject: RX11 emulator fun ... Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22C2@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> here is the picture: http://www.pdp-11.nl/rx11emul.jpg (104 kb, resized to 819 x 614). - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Gooijen, Henk Verzonden: wo 18-01-2006 22:16 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: RX11 emulator fun ... Hi all, just a good feeling to share ... I finished the prototype setup for the RX11 emulator of Pete McCollum. I installed his design together with the M105 and M7821 in my 11/34. I first booted RT11 (v5) from RL02. RXEMU is running on a PC that is connected to Pete's board via the parallel port. (A note on that PC at the end...) ".SH DEV" shows "DX Installed 177170 264". Then I did ".DIR DX0:" , and behold, I got the list output from DX0: !! Then I entered ".BOOT /FOR DX0:" ... OK, that takes some time, but then I got "RT-11SJ V04.00A". COOL !! Pete's RX11 emulator works great. I also loaded the small bootstrap that Pete included in the ZIP file into the memory of the just turned on 11/34. When I start the loaded code, it boots right away from "nothing" from the virtual RX01 floppy on the PC! What fun !! A note on the PC that I use to run RXEMU .... it is a Toshiba Libretto 100CT !!! The size of that "sub-notebook" is about the same size as a VHS cassette. I was laughing to see the big PDP-11/34 boot from the tiny Libretto :-) I took a picture. If it's of resonable quality I will post a link. In one word: GREAT !!! - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jan 18 15:34:08 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:34:08 -0500 Subject: batch on rt11 w/tsx+ In-Reply-To: <003f01c61bd8$eda8b3e0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> References: <003f01c61bd8$eda8b3e0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Message-ID: <43CEB450.80205@compsys.to> >Jay West wrote: > I was wondering if somone knew the answer to this... is BATCH > supported on RT11 that is running TSX+? I know it's supported on RT11, > but I thought I saw somewhere that once you loaded TSX+ that you > couldn't run BATCH because of some conflict. Anyone know the straight > scoop on this? Jerome Fine replies: Under RT-11, BATCH is supported via the BA(X).SYS device driver, as well as other hooks in the operating system. When TSX-PLUS is run, the Resident Monitor (RT11XM) is completely replaced along with the Keyboard (KMON) and the User Service Routine (USR). There are also minor changes to some of the device drivers. Most of the utility programs run as is without change. Since there is no BA.TSX device driver, you can't run BATCH under TSX-PLUS. Part of the reason may be that SL: (the RT-11 Single Line Editor - similar to some of the stuff done by DOSKEY in DOS) is built into TSX-PLUS rather than being a separate device driver as in RT-11 which uses SL(X).SYS to perform the functions. Since SL: and BA: can't run at the same time in RT-11 and since SL: seems to be built into TSX-PLUS, perhaps that is part of the reason that BATCH is not supported . However, I doubt if anyone knows the internals of both RT-11 and TSX-PLUS sufficiently to comment. Does this information provide enough of an answer? The answer Lyle suggested provides an alternative. A command file can be used to run the job, but the results might not be quite the same. On the other hand, once BATCH is running under RT-11, can you use the background job? Since I don't use BATCH myself (anything I want done I am not able to continue with anything else, so a command file is sufficient), please let me know if KMON is still available to the user? If only system jobs can still be run, that is not very useful. Under TSX-PLUS, any job can execute a command file at low priority and not interfere with interactive jobs. In addition, all interactive jobs have the same user interface under TSX-PLUS as opposed to RT-11 where system jobs MUST be activated via KMON and normally use ONLY the CSI (Command String Interpreter) syntax for the specific chosen program - quite a big reduction in the user friendly ability. ON THE OTHER HAND, when I am the ONLY user on a PDP-11 system, I find that the ONLY system jobs that I actually can effectively use are additional KEX editors sessions. Thus, under RT-11 I almost always run a command file called SKEX4.COM which contains: SRUN KEX.SAV/LEVEL:n/TERMINAL:n/NAME:Kn with the line being repeated for as many KEX sessions as I can place into memory and still run other jobs. Normally, n = 1,2,3,4 is sufficient. This requires a SYSGEN with multi-terminal support. On a real DEC PDP-11/83, I use a DLV11-J with 4 serial ports. Under E11, the E11 commands: ASSIGN TT0: CON1: (always default) ASSIGN TT1: CON2: ASSIGN TT2: CON3: ASSIGN TT3: CON4: ASSIGN TT4: CON5: substitutes for the hardware DLV11-J and allows the same monitor to be used via to activate each CONn: screen. This latter hardware information applies to both RT-11 and TSX-PLUS. Note that under TSX-PLUS, ONLY CON1: is needed since TSX-PLUS allows the same physical serial port to support many jobs via the use of "n". This would substitute for using under RT-11, but not suffer from the time to redraw the screen each time you switch under E11/TSX-PLUS since the monitor is effectively at DMA speed rather than serial line speed. Since I have not used TSX-PLUS under E11, I can't really be more specific. Have I answered your questions and concerns? Any other questions? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jan 18 15:44:45 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:44:45 +0000 Subject: RX11 emulator fun ... In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22C2@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22C2@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <43CEB6CD.4050600@gjcp.net> Gooijen, Henk wrote: > here is the picture: http://www.pdp-11.nl/rx11emul.jpg (104 kb, resized to 819 x 614). Heh. I use minicom on my Libretto as a terminal for my PDP-11. Gordon. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 18 15:53:02 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 13:53:02 -0800 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <1137615221.43cea175578b8@webmail.secure-wi.com> References: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> <1137615221.43cea175578b8@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <200601181353020415.0636B4F1@10.0.0.252> On 1/18/2006 at 12:13 PM mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: >If you look at IBM documentation (especially the BASIC manuals from the >era) it is clearly listed as Brown, not dark yellow. Looks like the network around Q204/Q205 is the dark-yellow to brown translation in the IBM CGA montor. I can scan that part of the circuit and post it if anyone's interested. I haven't checked, but wasn't there also special-casing in the EGA BIOS code to handle the dark yellow=brown case? Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 18 16:23:17 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:23:17 -0600 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <200601181353020415.0636B4F1@10.0.0.252> References: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> <1137615221.43cea175578b8@webmail.secure-wi.com> <200601181353020415.0636B4F1@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43CEBFD5.6060902@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Looks like the network around Q204/Q205 is the dark-yellow to brown > translation in the IBM CGA montor. I can scan that part of the circuit and > post it if anyone's interested. Please, it would be much appreciated! This would pretty much put to rest this person's theory that CGA monitors only started doing "brown" after EGA came out, which doesn't make any sense to me. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Jan 18 16:13:39 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:13:39 -0800 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <1137615221.43cea175578b8@webmail.secure-wi.com> References: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> <1137615221.43cea175578b8@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <1137622419.43cebd93a81c8@webmail.secure-wi.com> It's in any of the classic IBM BASIC manuals that came with DOS 1.x through DOS 3.x. I'll scan the page for you if you don't have one. If you have the manual, look up the COLOR command. Other than that, the Wiki entry wasn't all that bad. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Jan 18 16:34:54 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:34:54 -0800 Subject: batch on RT11 w/TSX+ In-Reply-To: <43CEB450.80205@compsys.to> References: <003f01c61bd8$eda8b3e0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> <43CEB450.80205@compsys.to> Message-ID: <200601181434.54712.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 18 January 2006 13:34, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Jay West wrote: > > > > I was wondering if somone knew the answer to this... is BATCH > > supported on RT11 that is running TSX+? I know it's supported on RT11, > > but I thought I saw somewhere that once you loaded TSX+ that you > > couldn't run BATCH because of some conflict. Anyone know the straight > > scoop on this? > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Under RT-11, BATCH is supported via the BA(X).SYS > device driver, as well as other hooks in the operating > system. > > When TSX-PLUS is run, the Resident Monitor (RT11XM) > is completely replaced along with the Keyboard (KMON) > and the User Service Routine (USR). There are also > minor changes to some of the device drivers. Most > of the utility programs run as is without change. Yes - except that SETSIZ.COM is run (executing SETSIZ.SAV) as part of the install process, and modifies the RT utility binaries to include the actual amount of memory required for them to run under TSX+. (BTW, the utilities work fine with RT-11 after the "patch"). > Since there is no BA.TSX device driver, you can't > run BATCH under TSX-PLUS. Part of the reason may > be that SL: (the RT-11 Single Line Editor - similar > to some of the stuff done by DOSKEY in DOS) is built > into TSX-PLUS rather than being a separate device > driver as in RT-11 which uses SL(X).SYS to perform > the functions. Since SL: and BA: can't run at the > same time in RT-11 and since SL: seems to be built > into TSX-PLUS, perhaps that is part of the reason > that BATCH is not supported . SL can be removed from TSX as part of the install (TSGEN) process. However, as you stated, a BA.TSX is not present and therefore "batch" is not even "seen" by TSX+. The System Manager's Guide says "The following RT-11 device handlers are unsupported under TSX-Plus: BA (resident batch handler), EL (error logging pseudohandler), and PD (PDT-11/130/150 handler). The ethernet drivers, NC, NQ, and NU are not supported. Also the IBSRQ function of the GPIB IEEE IB handler is unsupported." > However, I doubt if > anyone knows the internals of both RT-11 and TSX-PLUS > sufficiently to comment. That is almost correct ;-) I've been spending a fair amount of energy studying the internals based on the TSX-Plus "Programmers Reference Manual", "System Manager's Guide" and the "User's Reference Manual". I've also been asking a LOT of questions on the OS from the person who architected TSX and ran the company who developed and sold the product. I figure that when I release TSX-Plus, I'll essentially be as close to "tech support" as we can have for a while - along with all the folks who have been playing with licensed versions of the software for years. Even though almost all of the source code was lost (I found some scattered pieces on the development Fujitsu 2312 drive). I did pay do have all of the TSX-Plus listings (4 boxes worth!) shipped to me here in California. I passed them on to Al Kossow (bitsavers.org) so he could scan them and make them available to the world (I have permission from the owner to do so). So at some point we'll all have all of the "internals" :-) In the meantime, the TSX-Plus manuals do describe in detail how to modify DEC's handlers for operation under TSX-Plus - and a fair amount of detail on TSX-Plus internals. The more I study, the more I'm impressed with this OS!!! > Does this information provide enough of an answer? > > The answer Lyle suggested provides an alternative. > A command file can be used to run the job, but > the results might not be quite the same. On the > other hand, once BATCH is running under RT-11, > can you use the background job? Since I don't > use BATCH myself (anything I want done I am not > able to continue with anything else, so a command > file is sufficient), please let me know if KMON > is still available to the user? If only system > jobs can still be run, that is not very useful. Since detached jobs, spooling and indirect command files are available under TSX-Plus, my guess is that anything you could do with Batch under RT would be "doable" under TSX-Plus (with some modification to the batch file). --ship-- > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Jan 18 16:38:08 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 23:38:08 +0100 Subject: RX11 emulator fun ... Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22C4@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Yes, why not :-) Now you only need the PDP-11/xx CPU box. The Libretto can double-function as terminal and as mass storage (remember, Pete also makes a so-called XX driver available. When you copy the XX.SYS to the PDP-11 system, you can have (non-standard) virtual "RX01" floppies of 16 Mb ! That's half the max partition size in RT11. In the XM monitor that would be the XXX driver :-) - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Gordon JC Pearce Verzonden: wo 18-01-2006 22:44 Aan: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: RX11 emulator fun ... Gooijen, Henk wrote: > here is the picture: http://www.pdp-11.nl/rx11emul.jpg (104 kb, resized to 819 x 614). Heh. I use minicom on my Libretto as a terminal for my PDP-11. Gordon. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 18 16:52:26 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:52:26 -0600 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <1137622419.43cebd93a81c8@webmail.secure-wi.com> References: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> <1137615221.43cea175578b8@webmail.secure-wi.com> <1137622419.43cebd93a81c8@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <43CEC6AA.8000806@oldskool.org> mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: > It's in any of the classic IBM BASIC manuals that came with DOS 1.x through DOS > 3.x. I'll scan the page for you if you don't have one. If you have the > manual, look up the COLOR command. I'll check for this and email you privately if I need it. > Other than that, the Wiki entry wasn't all that bad. It had better be, I wrote more than half of it :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 18 17:05:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:05:48 -0800 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43CEBFD5.6060902@oldskool.org> References: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> <1137615221.43cea175578b8@webmail.secure-wi.com> <200601181353020415.0636B4F1@10.0.0.252> <43CEBFD5.6060902@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200601181505480697.0679548F@10.0.0.252> On 1/18/2006 at 4:23 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >Please, it would be much appreciated! This would pretty much put to >rest this person's theory that CGA monitors only started doing "brown" >after EGA came out, which doesn't make any sense to me. Okay, here's a grayscale tiff of the first of two pages (the second page contains things like video drive and horizontal output). I leave the page up for a day or so. I'dve scanned it as a monochrome image, but the shaded part on the right side just wouldn't come out right. http://www.sydex.com/photos/cgamon.tif Cheers, Chuck From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jan 18 17:27:55 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:27:55 -0500 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <007401c61c18$e59b9790$72781941@game> References: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> <007401c61c18$e59b9790$72781941@game> Message-ID: <20060118182755.531ea457.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 05:21:07 -0500 "Teo Zenios" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael B. Brutman" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 11:31 PM > Subject: Re: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 > > > > > > Thanks for the tip. The nice thing about the old crusty version that I > > picked up is that it runs on an old DOS PC and it has the paper docs. > > I'm not ancient, but online docs suck compared to paper. > > > > > > Mike > > That's the same reason I recently purchased MS Visual Basic 3.0 Pro, a nice > stack of paper manuals (compared to the 5.0 I purchased years ago which was > mostly just a cdrom and a small booklet). For some reason I feel like > messing around with 16 bit Windows 3.1 programming lately. > 16-bit Windows runs exceptionally well[1] on modern hardware, as long as you can get driver support. And if you are doing low-level programming on older processors, the tools are all DOS based anyway. Virtual DOS sessions run well enough inside Windows 3.11. And of course, you can run DOS and Windows 3 inside a virtual machine, i.e. Bochs on your favorite free 'unix' variant. [1]As well as 16 bit Windows ever _could_, I should qualify. From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 18 17:37:35 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:37:35 -0600 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <200601181505480697.0679548F@10.0.0.252> References: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> <1137615221.43cea175578b8@webmail.secure-wi.com> <200601181353020415.0636B4F1@10.0.0.252> <43CEBFD5.6060902@oldskool.org> <200601181505480697.0679548F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43CED13F.9060405@oldskool.org> Got it, thank you! Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/18/2006 at 4:23 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > > >>Please, it would be much appreciated! This would pretty much put to >>rest this person's theory that CGA monitors only started doing "brown" >>after EGA came out, which doesn't make any sense to me. > > > Okay, here's a grayscale tiff of the first of two pages (the second page > contains things like video drive and horizontal output). I leave the page > up for a day or so. I'dve scanned it as a monochrome image, but the shaded > part on the right side just wouldn't come out right. > > http://www.sydex.com/photos/cgamon.tif > > Cheers, > Chuck > -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 18 18:16:05 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:16:05 -0800 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <20060118182755.531ea457.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> <007401c61c18$e59b9790$72781941@game> <20060118182755.531ea457.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200601181616050573.06B9AC4B@10.0.0.252> On 1/18/2006 at 6:27 PM Scott Stevens wrote: >16-bit Windows runs exceptionally well[1] on modern hardware, as >long as you can get driver support. And if you are doing >low-level programming on older processors, the tools are all DOS >based anyway. Virtual DOS sessions run well enough inside >Windows 3.11. And of course, you can run DOS and Windows 3 >inside a virtual machine, i.e. Bochs on your favorite free 'unix' >variant. I use DOS, but I run with a 32-bit DPMI server. I find the 16-bit performance of Pentium-class systems to be very much inferior to the native 32-bit mode. http://www.thefreecountry.com/programming/dosextenders.shtml Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Jan 18 18:28:15 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 19:28:15 -0500 Subject: pertec tape drive interface card for pdp-11/03? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:06:23 +0100." <20060118210623.42074fbd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <200601190028.k0J0SFvS027449@mwave.heeltoe.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: >On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:25:47 +0000 (GMT) >ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >> DEC probably didn't make one at that time. although IIRC the TSV05 was >> a Pertec controller that went with the TS05 magtape (a rebadged Cipher >> 880) >The DEC TSV05 M7206 / M7206-PA is identical to the Emulex QT13 / QT14. >They look identical and a copy of the Emulex QT13 / QT14 firmware runs >in the DEC TSV05 M7206 / M7206-PA. The benefit of the Emulex firmware is >the ability to switch between TSV05 emulation and TMSCP where the DEC >firmware is castrated to TSV05 only. any chance you could make a copy of the eprom contents available? (I have a tsv05 :-) -brad From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Jan 18 18:15:24 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:15:24 -0600 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <007401c61c18$e59b9790$72781941@game> References: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060118181401.00c487a0@localhost> At 05:21 AM 1/18/2006 -0500, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Michael B. Brutman" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 11:31 PM >Subject: Re: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 > > > > > > Thanks for the tip. The nice thing about the old crusty version that I > > picked up is that it runs on an old DOS PC and it has the paper docs. > > I'm not ancient, but online docs suck compared to paper. > > > > > > Mike > >That's the same reason I recently purchased MS Visual Basic 3.0 Pro, a nice >stack of paper manuals (compared to the 5.0 I purchased years ago which was >mostly just a cdrom and a small booklet). For some reason I feel like >messing around with 16 bit Windows 3.1 programming lately. Massive resources for current work in MASM: Link: assembly language resources http://www.grc.com/smgassembly.htm Includes current Windows versions (sorry, that's off topic). "So tell me, just how long have you had this feeling that no one is watching you?" (Christopher Locke: Entropy Gradient Reversals) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jan 18 19:34:33 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 19:34:33 Subject: HP 9000 382 video switch settings? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060118193433.18cf0dd8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Does anyone know how to change the video settings in the HP 382 computer? (I think the main board is the same for the 9000/380). The 382 has a VGA type video port but my monitor keeps reporting "Unsupported Mode". Joe From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jan 18 18:34:42 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 19:34:42 -0500 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 References: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> <007401c61c18$e59b9790$72781941@game> <20060118182755.531ea457.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <005801c61c90$27c86270$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Stevens" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:27 PM Subject: Re: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 > 16-bit Windows runs exceptionally well[1] on modern hardware, as > long as you can get driver support. And if you are doing > low-level programming on older processors, the tools are all DOS > based anyway. Virtual DOS sessions run well enough inside > Windows 3.11. And of course, you can run DOS and Windows 3 > inside a virtual machine, i.e. Bochs on your favorite free 'unix' > variant. > > [1]As well as 16 bit Windows ever _could_, I should qualify. I am either going to use my 386DX/40 or 486/133 VLB system for it, both run Windows 3.11 (WFW) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 18 10:26:17 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:26:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK07 questions In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2622@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Jan 18, 6 10:37:48 am Message-ID: > > Are you sure about that? You can't recover a bulk-erased pack > > because you can't rebuild the servo surface, but this drive > > has a separate servo surface so there's no good reason why > > you couldn't reformat the data surfaces. > > I've not tried it, though. > > True, just like the RL01/RL02 there is a separate servo track > on the platters of the RK06/RK07. Indeed, I did try the .FORMAT No, it's not 'just like the RL01'. The RL's have embedded servo bursts -- tht is there are servo signals in the sector header regions of each data surface. The same head reads the servo signals and the data. This is one reason why an RL is so easy to align and why you don't need a special alignment pack. The RK07 has a seperate servo surface. There are 4 surfaces (2 platters) in the pack. One surface and its head is just servo signals. The other 3 surfaces are just user data (and sector headers, etc). In an RK07 it's necessary to get the data heads and the servo head correctly aligned so that when the servo head is on a track, the data heads are too. There are, apparently, 3 special items needed to do this, an alignment pack (which contains special signals on the 3 'data' surfaces, I assume a bit like the CE pattern used for a floppy drive), a tool to screw to the carriage to actually move the heads independantly, and some kind of meter to tell you if the heads are off-track. I have none of them (yet!). Since the data surfaces of a normal pack just contain user/OS data -- nothing essential for the operation of the _drive_, it should be possible to do a low-level format. > command, but RT11 reported that the command was not available > for the device, or something like that. > ".INIT" gave me an error like the ".DIR" command. > You are correct that you can format the RK07! It does not write > the servo tracks ("impossible"), but it does write the data *and* > the headers. However, that format command is not in RT11, but it > is in XXDP. Ah, right.... Remember I am a hardware person and deal with gates and op-amps :-) > > Edward tried his RK07 last evening, and after he loaded a pack > (no controller connected at all), he saw the same events (LEDs > and head movement), but on his drive the READY lamp illuminated. > I have the field maintenance print set ... OK. It sounds like your drive is basically working. What I'd do at this point is look at the prints to see what should drive the ready lamp. And then check back from the output stage until you can find out why it's not being turned on. I can dig out my prints and take a look too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 18 10:56:37 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:56:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jan 18, 6 01:03:53 pm Message-ID: > > There is a bit of a spat going on in a few forums regarding color index > #6 of IBM CGA. The old-timers know that it is brown from experience and > existing working hardware; the newbies (writing or using emulators) are > unwilling to accept that and are instead making CGA palettes with dark > yellow instead of brown. > > Can anyone give me the history on why #6 is brown? Was it a design > mistake, or intentional? Is it a property of the monitor or something? > You are going to love my inital answer. Colour 6 is both dark yellow _and_ brown. As usual, I am going to look at the hardware side of things. I am also talking solely about true-blue IBM stuff. Let's start on the CGA card itself. I am going to assume text mode (about the only place you'll get colour 6 on a real CGA card), the colours are therefore determined by the attribute byte for each character. The attribute data from the vieao RAM is latechs in U35 ('273). The outputs of that go to a 4-bit 4-way multiplexer (U9, U10, '153), which, selects one set of 4 bits or the other depending on wheter that particular dot in the characer cell is set or not (OK, there's a lot more to it, blink mode, graphics modes, etc, but I don't want to have to explain all 6 pages of the schematic at this point). The outputs from that mux are latched again (U101, '174), then buffered and sent to the DE9 socket. So the card outputs the 4 bits _unchanged_ from the appropriate part of the attribute byte. And it's clear from the circuit that the bits are : Bit 0 : Blue Bit 1 : Green Bit 2 : Red Bit 3 : Intensity. So you could reasonably claim that 0110 was dark yellow and 1110 was light yellow. But IBM also include the following table (suitably re-formatted): I R G B 0 0 0 0 Black 0 0 0 1 Rlue 0 0 1 0 Green 0 0 1 1 Cyan 0 1 0 0 Red 0 1 0 1 Magenta 0 1 1 0 Brown 0 1 1 1 White 1 0 0 0 Grey (=='light black' ;-)) 1 0 0 1 Light Blue 1 0 1 0 Light Green 1 0 1 1 Light Cyan 1 1 0 0 Light Red 1 1 0 1 Light Magenta 1 1 1 0 Yellow 1 1 1 1 High Intensity White (=='light white') OK, so why the odd name for colour 0 1 1 0. Well, we now turn to the schematic of the CGA monitor. The 4 bits come in, and are buffered by 74S05 chips , Q201 and Q253 on my schematic. Now for the interesting bit. There are 4 of the open-collector inverters -- Q201d., Q201f, Q253e and Q253f -- whose outputs are connected together. This common signal will only be high if the input signals are (wait for it) I=0, R=1, G=1, B=0. That is, for this particular colour 6. For that colour, Q206 (a normal NPN transistor) is therefore turned on, and this will reduce the level of green in the final display. In other words this colour is a little redder than you might expect. I did say I'd only consider IBM stuff. But I will just mention that I've worked on clone monitors that used a '138 to decode the input signals and detect colour 6. I don't have any schematics to hand, though. And later monitors still often used a PROM to decode the input signals, possibly allowing several colour sets, and used 2 or 3 bit resistor DACs to feed the CRT driverr stages. Now what that PEOM contained, and whether colour 6 was still special, I don't know. So, to sum up : 1) IBM call that colour 'brown' in the CGA TechRef description 2) The CGA card doesn't do anything special with it, the obvious pattern of bits appears on the DE9 connector 3) But the monitor does. It contains circuitry to shift that colour a little towards the red. I don't think this is a historical accident. Hope that helps. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 18 10:30:19 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:30:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hp 6286a supply In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060118111008.4cdf8298@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jan 18, 6 11:10:08 am Message-ID: > >I would be careful shotgunning parts. Firstly that you don't introduce > >more faults (either by using unsuitable capacitors or mis-connecing > >them). Secondly that you don't cause problems by changing a capacitor in > >a timing cirucit and having to re-align things). > > I think both of those would apply without having to state the obvious. Capacitor marking are notoriously difficult to understand. Heck, I've had to explain what '4n7' means on this list before now. For reference, it's 4.7nF -- that is 4700pF. Now for some others. How about 224? That's 22*10^4pF, or 0.22uF. Which then leads to the notorious 330. Is that 330pF or 33*10^0pF (that is, 33pF). Problem is, I've seen it used for both. The former in older stuff, the latter in modern stuff. So while a ceramic capacitor in a valve radio marked 330 is going to be 330pF, and while an SMD part marked 330 is almost certain to be 33pF, if you find a through-hole disk ceramic on a 1980's board, it could be either. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 18 10:31:48 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:31:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sort of OT; new eBay phish In-Reply-To: <20060118141800.074375812A@mail.wordstock.com> from "Bryan Pope" at Jan 18, 6 09:18:00 am Message-ID: > > > > > > > I stick with ancient e-mail software that doesn't let ne click on links. > > That doesn't attempt to decode/dsipaly html. And which certaily doesn't > > run executable programs (in any language). > > > > I am less likely to get caught by something like this because I will spot > > that the link doesn't go to ebay.co.uk or wherever, but goes to some > > totally unknown site. At which point I am pretty sure it's fraudulent > > > > I use elm for my work email which does the same as you describe. For It's not suprising it does the same thing. I'm running (an ancient version of) elm too. OK, I sometimes also use pine when I get a MIME-encoded attachment that is actually useful. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 18 10:59:14 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:59:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <19056.144.160.5.25.1137613409.squirrel@mail.athenet.net> from "Tom Peters" at Jan 18, 6 01:43:29 pm Message-ID: > My recall of the color pallete in CGA mode was that the "dark" versions of > the main colors were a bit flip from the main colors and that "brown" Correct in general, that bit corresponds to the I line to the monitor. > really was "dark yellow." You could call it dark yellow all you wanted > (and some docs did) but once painted on the screen, it was brown. I think > white with the corresponding bit set (cleared?) was gray. Or was dark gray > equivalent to black...? I forget. I recall that something about it was > logically wierd and didn't make sense. Well, colour 0 is black (all bits off). Colour 15 is light white (all bits on). Colour 7 is either normal white or light grey (depending on what you want to call it!). Colour 8 is grey in the IBM manuals, you might think of it as light black. It actually does make sense if you look at the hardware. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 18 11:04:04 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:04:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060118160021.04111be8@mail.earthlink.net> from "Steve Thatcher" at Jan 18, 6 04:10:54 pm Message-ID: > > > Brown was really brown on an IBM display anyway. It wasn't just a > darker color as other people had suggested. The cheaper rip off > monitors typically did not do "true" IBM brown. Why IBM made this a > design requirement, I have no idea. If I have time, I will analyze Correct. One thoguht : There is nothing I can see that particularly detects colour 6 in the NTSC encoder on the CGA card itself. So, what does a composite monitor display for colour 6? Dark Yellow, or Brown? Was the mod to the 5153 monitor done to make it agree with the display on a compositie monitor? > the IBM color CGA monitor schematics I have. IBM went to a LOT of > trouble to combine signals for I, B, at 0 and R and G at 1 to get Brown. For 'LOT of trouble', read : 4 open-collector NOT gates (but 2 '05s were needed anyway to provide 8 gates to buffer the signals), 1 transistor, and a handful of passives. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 18 11:08:27 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:08:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <200601181353020415.0636B4F1@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 18, 6 01:53:02 pm Message-ID: > > On 1/18/2006 at 12:13 PM mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: > > >If you look at IBM documentation (especially the BASIC manuals from the > >era) it is clearly listed as Brown, not dark yellow. > > Looks like the network around Q204/Q205 is the dark-yellow to brown > translation in the IBM CGA montor. I can scan that part of the circuit and > post it if anyone's interested. I wonder if we're looking at different schematics. In mine, Q204 and Q205 form the buffer stage for the Hsync signal. The emitter of Q205 seems to be a blanking signal. the collector feeds sync to Q402 (the deflection oscillator IC). In mine, Q206 is the 'brwon kludge' I think. > > I haven't checked, but wasn't there also special-casing in the EGA BIOS > code to handle the dark yellow=brown case? I doubt it. I seem to rememebr a PROM in the input stages of the 5154 monitor, which may well have done the same conversion, though. -tony From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Wed Jan 18 19:27:58 2006 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 19:27:58 -0600 Subject: Color keytops Message-ID: <000301c61c97$957d8af0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Gene, Check out www.arkayengravers.com/ Jack ************************************ Message: 9 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:59:38 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: Color keytops... To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <20060117175830.Q22969 at shell.lmi.net> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Gene Buckle wrote: > Is there any place to purchase colored keytops for a Model M keyboard? > I recall seeing in the distant past colored keytops for the ALT, > SHIFT, CTRL, etc. keys. Google hasn't been much help either. tnx! There used to be third party ones specifically for use with Word-Pervert; try including WordPerfect in your searches From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jan 18 17:22:18 2006 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:22:18 -0500 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <200601180017140348.034BD296@mail.sydex.com> References: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> <20060117234443.14eeeb12.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200601180017140348.034BD296@mail.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20060118182218.62433a13.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 00:17:14 -0800 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 1/17/2006 at 11:44 PM Scott Stevens wrote: > > >I have a version of MASM old enough (4.0) that it fits, and runs, > >on my HP95 lx palmtop. It only has a tiny ram drive (512K). > > Most of my code nowadays is 32-bit, so the old MASM's don't work. I've got > MASM going back to the really terrible 1.0 and just about every major > version after that. > I won't be running any 32-bit code on the HP95LX ;-) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 18 19:56:18 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:56:18 -0800 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601181756180969.07156CF3@10.0.0.252> On 1/18/2006 at 5:08 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >In mine, Q206 is the 'brwon kludge' I think. Yup, slip of the neurons between looking at the schematic (with a binocular loupe--silly thing is too small for my old eyes to read unaided) and posting the email. >> I haven't checked, but wasn't there also special-casing in the EGA BIOS >> code to handle the dark yellow=brown case? >I doubt it. I seem to rememebr a PROM in the input stages of the 5154 >monitor, which may well have done the same conversion, though. Ah, now you're going to make me look at the EGA BIOS listing too! Have you no mercy? :) It seems to me that it was possible (in other EGA modes) to display dark yellow instead of brown, but that the legacy CGA modes were special-cased. I'll check on it, though. Cheers, Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Jan 18 20:00:41 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:00:41 -0600 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <20060118182218.62433a13.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> <20060117234443.14eeeb12.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200601180017140348.034BD296@mail.sydex.com> <20060118182218.62433a13.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43CEF2C9.7060901@brutman.com> Scott Stevens wrote: > I won't be running any 32-bit code on the HP95LX ;-) Same here. My development environment is a 386-40, but the target processor is an 8088. I'd like to develop natively on the target box (a PCjr), but I fear I would grow old before getting anything done. (It's more of a problem with the floppy shuffle and the slow access to the fake hard drive that I'm using .. the machine is probably more than fast enough for older versions of MASM and Turbo Pascal.) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 18 20:31:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:31:56 -0800 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601181831560049.07360880@10.0.0.252> On 1/18/2006 at 5:08 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >I doubt it. I seem to rememebr a PROM in the input stages of the 5154 >monitor, which may well have done the same conversion, though. Darn--you're right. On page 4 of the EGA display tech ref, there's a table that says "When operating in Mode 1, the display maps the 4 input bits into 16 of the possible 64 colors as shown in the following table" While bright yellow (color 14) is given as RrGgb, color 6 is given as Rg (brown), where dark yellow would be RG. How very strange to special-case it in the monitor! Probably done because the EGA could drive a CGA monitor and that already had the brown special-casing. I'm not inclined to check the PGA BIOS, but the PGA display appears not to do the color re-mapping. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 18 20:38:11 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:38:11 -0600 Subject: batch on RT11 w/TSX+ References: <003f01c61bd8$eda8b3e0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458><43CEB450.80205@compsys.to> <200601181434.54712.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <00a901c61ca1$63fb6510$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Lyle wrote... > SL can be removed from TSX as part of the install (TSGEN) process. > However, as > you stated, a BA.TSX is not present and therefore "batch" is not even > "seen" > by TSX+. So, then I could dig into the section of the manuals that talks about changing a RT11 device driver to run under TSX... and maybe hack up BA to work ... :) Thanks for the ideas! Jay West From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 18 20:47:25 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:47:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060118184519.G23331@shell.lmi.net> In addition to the BROWN v Yellow, there were differences in the handling of BRIGHT BLACK. (Joe Campbell borrowed a "real" CGA card from me when he found out that his Corona did not give the same color as IBM.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 18 20:53:37 2006 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:53:37 -0800 Subject: Color keytops... In-Reply-To: References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22B3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <43CD9DA7.3000201@deltasoft.com> <20060117175830.Q22969@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <43CEFF31.8010306@deltasoft.com> > > Hooleon used to be the company for custom keycaps. A quick search shows > they're still around: http://www.hooleon.com > I didn't see what I neede there, but I did email them asking if they still supported the Model M. Thanks! g. -- -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 18 20:57:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 18:57:01 -0800 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <43CEF2C9.7060901@brutman.com> References: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> <20060117234443.14eeeb12.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200601180017140348.034BD296@mail.sydex.com> <20060118182218.62433a13.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43CEF2C9.7060901@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200601181857010178.074CFF9E@10.0.0.252> On 1/18/2006 at 8:00 PM Michael B. Brutman wrote: >(It's more of a problem with the floppy shuffle and the slow access to >the fake hard drive that I'm using .. the machine is probably more than >fast enough for older versions of MASM and Turbo Pascal.) Don't be too sure--MASM didn't get fast until after 1.0. There were actually two IBM PC assemblers 1.0 that were sold as a bundle; ASM, which IIRC, would run in 64K on a system with one diskette drive, didn't have error messages (just numbers) and MASM, which was probably the slowest assembler (per unit of processor speed) that I've ever seen. Horribly buggy too--you'd think that an assembler would at least generate the right code. Phase errors and the dreaded "Internal Error" were all too common. The manual notes for "Internal Error": "Usually caused by arithmetic check. If it occurs, notify your authorized IBM Personal Computer dealer." Uh huh. And my Authorized IBM Personal Computer Dealer will do what? There were some very public rants about plunking down $99 for a miserable piece of garbage. Fortunately there were other alternatives, including 8086 cross assemblers running CP/M 2.2. You used them if you were smart. MASM 4.0 was like a breath of fresh air. Reasonably fast and not too buggy. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 18 21:06:58 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 19:06:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <200601181857010178.074CFF9E@10.0.0.252> References: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> <20060117234443.14eeeb12.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200601180017140348.034BD296@mail.sydex.com> <20060118182218.62433a13.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43CEF2C9.7060901@brutman.com> <200601181857010178.074CFF9E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060118190352.Q81514@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 18 Jan 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > There were actually two IBM PC assemblers 1.0 that were sold as a bundle; > ASM, which IIRC, would run in 64K on a system with one diskette drive, > didn't have error messages (just numbers) and MASM, which was probably the > slowest assembler (per unit of processor speed) that I've ever seen. > Horribly buggy too--you'd think that an assembler would at least generate > the right code. Phase errors and the dreaded "Internal Error" were all too > common. The manual notes for "Internal Error": Phase errors were usually caused by forward references, MOV VAR2, 0 . . . VAR2 DB ? and would then generate the message for EVERY label from there to the end. Avoiding forward references, or overiding the datat type would prevent them MOV BYTE PTR VAR2, 0 > MASM 4.0 was like a breath of fresh air. Reasonably fast and not too > buggy. ... and 5.0 was the first one with tolerable documentation provided. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 18 21:07:14 2006 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 19:07:14 -0800 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <007401c61c18$e59b9790$72781941@game> References: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> <007401c61c18$e59b9790$72781941@game> Message-ID: <43CF0262.7070206@deltasoft.com> > > That's the same reason I recently purchased MS Visual Basic 3.0 Pro, a nice > stack of paper manuals (compared to the 5.0 I purchased years ago which was > mostly just a cdrom and a small booklet). For some reason I feel like > messing around with 16 bit Windows 3.1 programming lately. > Use Delphi 1.0. It's muuuuch better. g. -- -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jan 18 20:34:39 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:34:39 -0600 Subject: batch on rt11 w/tsx+ References: <003f01c61bd8$eda8b3e0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> <43CEB450.80205@compsys.to> Message-ID: <00a401c61ca0$e763cba0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Jerome wrote... > Have I answered your questions and concerns? Any other > questions? Absolutely, in spades! Thanks mucho :) Jay West From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 18 21:24:25 2006 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 19:24:25 -0800 Subject: Color keytops In-Reply-To: <000301c61c97$957d8af0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> References: <000301c61c97$957d8af0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <43CF0669.8090407@deltasoft.com> Jack Rubin wrote: > Gene, > > Check out www.arkayengravers.com/ > Thanks for the link Jack. It'll come in handy when I get around to building an Elecraft K2. :) Unfortunately, they don't have any Model M caps. g. -- -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 18 21:26:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 19:26:54 -0800 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <20060118190352.Q81514@shell.lmi.net> References: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> <20060117234443.14eeeb12.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200601180017140348.034BD296@mail.sydex.com> <20060118182218.62433a13.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43CEF2C9.7060901@brutman.com> <200601181857010178.074CFF9E@10.0.0.252> <20060118190352.Q81514@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200601181926540546.07685C9D@10.0.0.252> On 1/18/2006 at 7:06 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >Phase errors were usually caused by forward references, >MOV VAR2, 0 >. . . >VAR2 DB ? >and would then generate the message for EVERY label from there to the end. >Avoiding forward references, or overiding the datat type would prevent >them MOV BYTE PTR VAR2, 0 That would be too easy! MASM 1.0 would generate phase errors for seemingly no paricular reason. Sometimes, just rearranging the order of instructions (without changing the nature of the references would clear them up. As I said, a miserable excuse for a product. Cheers, Chuck > >> MASM 4.0 was like a breath of fresh air. Reasonably fast and not too >> buggy. > >... and 5.0 was the first one with tolerable documentation provided. From spc at conman.org Wed Jan 18 21:58:44 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 22:58:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <43CEF2C9.7060901@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Jan 18, 2006 08:00:41 PM Message-ID: <20060119035845.397E073029@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Michael B. Brutman once stated: > > Scott Stevens wrote: > > > I won't be running any 32-bit code on the HP95LX ;-) > > Same here. My development environment is a 386-40, but the target > processor is an 8088. I'd like to develop natively on the target box (a > PCjr), but I fear I would grow old before getting anything done. I did a lot of development on a PCjr. I had quite a bit of memory in the system, so I set up a 128k RAM disk, copied MASM (2.x I think), LINK.EXE, the editor I used (PE.EXE 1.0---a whopping 40k executable) and the source code I was working on. Just before running the program I was developing, I would copy the source to floppy, just in case. Did that for several years. -spc (I think I had 384k of RAM in my PCjr ... ) From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 18 22:52:44 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 22:52:44 -0600 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CF1B1C.2060508@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > So, to sum up : > > 1) IBM call that colour 'brown' in the CGA TechRef description > > 2) The CGA card doesn't do anything special with it, the obvious pattern > of bits appears on the DE9 connector > > 3) But the monitor does. It contains circuitry to shift that colour a > little towards the red. > > I don't think this is a historical accident. Thank you for that definitive answer!! I really appreciate it! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 18 23:02:51 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 23:02:51 -0600 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43CF1D7B.6050105@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > I don't think this is a historical accident. Wait a second -- while your explanation very completely explains HOW, it does not explain WHY. Why did IBM go through all that trouble to turn #6 brown? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 18 23:32:00 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:32:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sort of OT; new eBay phish In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jan 18, 6 04:31:48 pm" Message-ID: <200601190532.VAA21136@floodgap.com> > > I use elm for my work email which does the same as you describe. For > > It's not suprising it does the same thing. I'm running (an ancient > version of) elm too. OK, I sometimes also use pine when I get a > MIME-encoded attachment that is actually useful. Why not use an elm ME+ variant? I like them better than the trunk build, actually. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Where there's a will, there's a probate. ----------------------------------- From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jan 18 23:36:33 2006 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:36:33 -0800 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43CF1D7B.6050105@oldskool.org> (Jim Leonard's message of "Wed, 18 Jan 2006 23:02:51 -0600") References: <43CF1D7B.6050105@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200601190536.k0J5aX7V076509@lots.reanimators.org> Jim Leonard wrote: > Wait a second -- while your explanation very completely explains HOW, > it does not explain WHY. Why did IBM go through all that trouble to > turn #6 brown? Brown is better, it doesn't show the dirt. -Frank McConnell From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 18 23:48:47 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:48:47 -0800 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43CF1D7B.6050105@oldskool.org> References: <43CF1D7B.6050105@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200601182148470384.07EA4159@10.0.0.252> On 1/18/2006 at 11:02 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >Tony Duell wrote: >> I don't think this is a historical accident. > >Wait a second -- while your explanation very completely explains HOW, it >does not explain WHY. Why did IBM go through all that trouble to turn >#6 brown? I'd love to know for certain! One can conjecture several plausible answers (e.g., brown is a more useful color than dark yellow). I'm trying to remember if the 5153 was made in Korea for IBM. If so, by whom? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 18 23:53:47 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:53:47 -0800 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <200601181926540546.07685C9D@10.0.0.252> References: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> <20060117234443.14eeeb12.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200601180017140348.034BD296@mail.sydex.com> <20060118182218.62433a13.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43CEF2C9.7060901@brutman.com> <200601181857010178.074CFF9E@10.0.0.252> <20060118190352.Q81514@shell.lmi.net> <200601181926540546.07685C9D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601182153470170.07EED454@10.0.0.252> When did MASM start optimizing forward jumps? (i.e. multiple passes if necessary to make sure that 3-byte jumps were used only when necessary or when specified.) Was it MASM 4--and was it a command-line option? Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 18 23:57:58 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 23:57:58 -0600 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <43CEF2C9.7060901@brutman.com> References: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> <20060117234443.14eeeb12.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200601180017140348.034BD296@mail.sydex.com> <20060118182218.62433a13.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43CEF2C9.7060901@brutman.com> Message-ID: <43CF2A66.9090601@oldskool.org> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Same here. My development environment is a 386-40, but the target > processor is an 8088. I'd like to develop natively on the target box (a > PCjr), but I fear I would grow old before getting anything done. (Hi Mike!) I am probably the only person crazy enough to still develop on the actual hardware itself (in my case 5150/CGA). The keyboard and ST-225 seek noise are comforting and nostalgic, but the real benefits are: I get to think a little more as something is compiling, and thinking is the real work; also, I have immediate confirmation that my program runs on the intended hardware. Of course, I'm doing CGA fiddling, so I *must* test on the hardware, and most times it's just easier to code the whole thing on it. I get around the floppy shuffle problem by using a serial cable and transmitting changed files once a night using FastLynx. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jan 19 00:00:42 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 00:00:42 -0600 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <200601181857010178.074CFF9E@10.0.0.252> References: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> <20060117234443.14eeeb12.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200601180017140348.034BD296@mail.sydex.com> <20060118182218.62433a13.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43CEF2C9.7060901@brutman.com> <200601181857010178.074CFF9E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43CF2B0A.8060708@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > MASM 4.0 was like a breath of fresh air. Reasonably fast and not too > buggy. Any TASM memories? And what's everyone's opinion on IDEAL mode? I find people either love macros/high-level structure stuff in an assembler, or completely hate it... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu Jan 19 01:01:44 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:01:44 +0100 Subject: RK07 questions Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2629@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > No, it's not 'just like the RL01'. The RL's have embedded > servo bursts -- tht is there are servo signals in the sector > header regions of each data surface. The same head reads the > servo signals and the data. Correct again Tony :-) My mistake. > The RK07 has a seperate servo surface. There are 4 surfaces > (2 platters) in the pack. One surface and its head is just > servo signals. The other 3 surfaces are just user data (and > sector headers, etc). That's what I've read too. Just a stupid mistake to compare the RK07 with the RL02. > Ah, right.... Remember I am a hardware person and deal with > gates and op-amps :-) Yep, I know! > OK. It sounds like your drive is basically working. What I'd > do at this point is look at the prints to see what should > drive the ready lamp. And then check back from the output > stage until you can find out why it's not being turned on. I > can dig out my prints and take a look too. That's exactly what I intend to do :-) but I will first have a look on the behaviour of the other two drives, while I'm at it. thanks, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 19 01:14:22 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 23:14:22 -0800 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <43CF2B0A.8060708@oldskool.org> References: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> <20060117234443.14eeeb12.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200601180017140348.034BD296@mail.sydex.com> <20060118182218.62433a13.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43CEF2C9.7060901@brutman.com> <200601181857010178.074CFF9E@10.0.0.252> <43CF2B0A.8060708@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200601182314220655.08389BFF@10.0.0.252> On 1/19/2006 at 12:00 AM Jim Leonard wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> MASM 4.0 was like a breath of fresh air. Reasonably fast and not too >> buggy. > >Any TASM memories? There were a mess of them, TASM, A86, ASM86, MAC, RMAC... Almost anything would work if all you needed was a COM file. You could even use the macro facility in a foreign assemlber like M80 to generate an executable. .EXEs were a different matter, though. Now, if you want a small assembler, I've got a copy of DRI RASM-86--the executable is about 32K. It doesn't have true macros, but does implement code macros (Remember Intel ASM86? You could add and remove instructions at will). (I couldn't remember the name of the little DRI assembler, so I had to take a look on my bookshelf. Found a 1984 Comdex shuttle bus schedule with the manual...). Cheers, CHuck From Bob.Adamson at sli-institute.ac.uk Thu Jan 19 02:09:20 2006 From: Bob.Adamson at sli-institute.ac.uk (Bob Adamson) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:09:20 -0000 Subject: looking for RX01 device IOTs for the PDP8/e Message-ID: <7D7A68F7F09DAE40AE47E55F7F601D8B83412E@SLISERVER21.sli-institute.ac.uk> Hmmm! - did you think that you'd find an RX01 in a 1970 data book? Bob tpeters at mixcom.com wrote: > I have the PDP-8e Intro to Programming (1970). I'm not exactly sure what > you're looking for. If you think it's in there, I'd be happy to look for > you. However, all I see here are IOTs for TU58, drum disks, scopes, > recording voltmeters, TTY's, and etc. Nothing that explicitly says RX01. > > At 10:55 AM 1/13/2006 +0100, you wrote: >> Great! Thanks Vince. >> IIRC, I have also gotten the IOTs for the RF08 from Dough's >> site, (and the 'tricky' ones like GTF and RTF), but somehow >> I did not see this RX01 page! >> I have printed those pages already to study them! >> >> - Henk, PA8PDP. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 19 03:19:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 01:19:40 -0800 Subject: looking for RX01 device IOTs for the PDP8/e In-Reply-To: <7D7A68F7F09DAE40AE47E55F7F601D8B83412E@SLISERVER21.sli-institute.ac.uk> References: <7D7A68F7F09DAE40AE47E55F7F601D8B83412E@SLISERVER21.sli-institute.ac.uk> Message-ID: <200601190119400889.08AB537F@10.0.0.252> On 1/19/2006 at 8:09 AM Bob Adamson wrote: >Hmmm! - did you think that you'd find an RX01 in a 1970 data book? >Bob I've got the 5th edition of that book (1975) and it still doesn't mention the RX01--RK01, RK08 and DF-32 only. OTOH, you can find RX01 IOTs here: http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/man/rx01.html Cheers, Chuck From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Jan 19 06:41:09 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:41:09 +0000 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43CF1D7B.6050105@oldskool.org> References: <43CF1D7B.6050105@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <26c11a640601190441g1a1e9ca6t@mail.gmail.com> On 19/01/06, Jim Leonard wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > I don't think this is a historical accident. > > Wait a second -- while your explanation very completely explains HOW, it > does not explain WHY. Why did IBM go through all that trouble to turn > #6 brown? > -- Maybe it's just because they already had a yellow and no brown. Dan From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Jan 19 08:51:36 2006 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 09:51:36 -0500 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43CF1D7B.6050105@oldskool.org> Message-ID: > Wait a second -- while your explanation very completely explains HOW, it > does not explain WHY. Why did IBM go through all that trouble to turn > #6 brown? My bet, at the time, it was popular to display little "landscapes" as part of system demos. Lower third of the screen green (for grass) upper two thirds blue (for sky) some kind of small building represented in red (for bricks) and... a tree. You need brown for the trunk. From cpg at aladdin.de Thu Jan 19 10:12:23 2006 From: cpg at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler) Date: 19 Jan 2006 17:12:23 +0100 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history Message-ID: <87vewg5h94.fsf@tigerman.ealaddin.org> Hi, regarding the CGA, the technical manual mentions a 160x200 mode with more that 4 colors. It doesn't give any more information on how to enable this mode, though. Does anyone on this list know how to enable this mode, or better, has a demo program which does that? regards, chris From marvin at rain.org Thu Jan 19 10:15:04 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:15:04 -0800 Subject: Ebay Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <43CFBB08.53F842E2@rain.org> I was just checking out some stuff on ebay (hanging my head) and ran across a Northstar Horizon that sold for $551.00. In it, the (fiction?) writer says: "Originally, the cases were wooden, but the company soon switched to a blue metal cover. Hence, those computers with original wooden cases are more highly sought after than those with the more common metal cases." Also: "The only known computer to be sold in a wooden case, this collector's item features its original, walnut-stained wooden case." Looks like some just plain wrong information, but ... 1) Were there more metal case Horizons sold than wooden case and did they "soon" switch to a metal case? 2) What other computers were sold in a "wooden case"? The Sol-20 comes instantly to mind as well as the Polymorphic 8010 and 8013 series of computers. How many others were there? From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 19 11:02:33 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:02:33 -0700 Subject: Ebay Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:15:04 -0800. <43CFBB08.53F842E2@rain.org> Message-ID: In article <43CFBB08.53F842E2 at rain.org>, Marvin Johnston writes: > 2) What other computers were sold in a "wooden case"? The Sol-20 comes > instantly to mind as well as the Polymorphic 8010 and 8013 series of > computers. How many others were there? According to Collectible Microcomputers, there was a machine manufactured in Utah (Bountiful, if memory serves me correctly) that was in a wooden case. It wasn't very common, but there was definately more than one computer with a wooden case. They don't shield R/F EMI very well though :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jan 19 11:12:59 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:12:59 -0600 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: References: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060119111034.0485c218@mail> At 10:56 AM 1/18/2006, Tony Duell wrote: >You are going to love my inital answer. Colour 6 is both dark yellow >_and_ brown. >As usual, I am going to look at the hardware side of things. I am also >talking solely about true-blue IBM stuff. What? No discussion of the frequency curve of the tube's phosphor, and whether this matches cultural perceptions of "yellow" and "brown" when driven at those levels? :-) - John From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Jan 19 11:37:22 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:37:22 -0500 Subject: Color keytops In-Reply-To: <43CF0669.8090407@deltasoft.com> References: <000301c61c97$957d8af0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> <000301c61c97$957d8af0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060119123611.03a1fc60@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Gene Buckle may have mentioned these words: >Jack Rubin wrote: >>Gene, >>Check out www.arkayengravers.com/ > >Thanks for the link Jack. It'll come in handy when I get around to >building an Elecraft K2. :) Unfortunately, they don't have any Model M caps. Better get 'em quick whilst it's still in your DNS cache! That domain expired today! [[ Oh, and I wouldn't mind building a K2 either, but I'd rather build my homebrew 6809 first... ;-) ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Jan 19 11:51:04 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 09:51:04 -0800 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <43CF2A66.9090601@oldskool.org> References: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> <20060117234443.14eeeb12.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200601180017140348.034BD296@mail.sydex.com> <20060118182218.62433a13.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43CEF2C9.7060901@brutman.com> <43CF2A66.9090601@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1137693064.43cfd188be148@webmail.secure-wi.com> You can develop on the original hardware, and I did a lot of work on my Jr during the 8 years that I had it, but the floppy shuffle got very very old. Back then I had a 256K system. After creating the requisite RAM disk to fill the low memory hole left by the bass-ackwards video buffer there wasn't much left. I was using the Zbasic 3 and 4 series compilers back then, and made extensive use of overlays. (I wrote a BBS that ran on an XT for two years in NYC.) If I really need to max out the memory I would cut the video buffer to 4k (text only), skip the RAM disk, and then have about 220K left. I guess I'm spoiled now. My 'daily driver' Jr has 640K, full sized PC 5150 keyboard, DOS 5, an a SCSI drive (bi-di parallel port with a parallel-to-scsi adapter). That's quite a better system than before and I wouldn't have to shuffle anything, but my requirements have grown too. MASM 6.x might have a chance of running on it, but Turbo C++ 3.0 won't, and most of the stuff available from 1988 on up needs more horsepower than the Jr has. Right next to it is the 386-40 with the much faster disk, networking to my other machines for file transfer, etc. The 386-40 is there for data transfer anyway, and it makes a good 'mothership' for the Jr. (It has a Central Point Option Board, which is nice too.) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 19 12:32:55 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:32:55 -0800 Subject: Ebay Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601191032550987.0AA5D7D3@10.0.0.252> On 1/19/2006 at 10:02 AM Richard wrote: >> 2) What other computers were sold in a "wooden case"? The Sol-20 comes >> instantly to mind as well as the Polymorphic 8010 and 8013 series of >> computers. How many others were there? > >According to Collectible Microcomputers, there was a machine >manufactured in Utah (Bountiful, if memory serves me correctly) that >was in a wooden case. There is also another very rare bird, produced out of Berkeley, CA called the "People's Computer". You'll see a definition in 22DISK for one. Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jan 19 12:44:11 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:44:11 -0600 Subject: M4 9914 tape loading questions Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060119115440.0557f370@mail> I'm tinkering with the first of the three 9-track units I acquired recently. This is the M4 9914, a seemingly very nice unit in that it was clean, powers up and acts from the front panel buttons, and that it handles 800 BPI as well as 1600 and 6250. Mind you, I'm old enough to still have a stack of tapes that I used in college in the early 80s, but I'm not old enough to have worked behind the counter with the big VAXes and UNIVAC. I might've written a tape or two in person under PDP Unix, but I probably did it under the watchful eyes of someone more experienced. The first time I tried to load a tape, the vacuum fed the tape correctly back to the takeup reel but it was not picked up on the reel. The notched leader on the tape is in good shape, but it did not engage. I unscrewed the top of the takeup reel and was puzzled. I expected to see a mechanism to hook the leader (as you see inside a DLT, for example.) The takeup reel hub is smooth. It does have openings on the lower half, and the hub is certainly part of the vacuum path. Is vacuum alone supposed to grab the tape and hold it to the takeup reel? Most other times I loaded a tape, the tape didn't move smoothly back to the take reel. It bunched up after hitting obstacles along the path. I do not yet have the user or service manuals for the M4 9914. I did find several manuals for similar units (HP 88780) on Bitsavers. I googled quite a bit to find the definitive 9-track history and preservation site but I haven't found it yet... - John From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Jan 19 12:57:41 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 10:57:41 -0800 Subject: Ebay Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <43CFBB08.53F842E2@rain.org> References: <43CFBB08.53F842E2@rain.org> Message-ID: <43CFE125.2020107@msm.umr.edu> Marvin Johnston wrote: >Looks like some just plain wrong information, but ... > >1) Were there more metal case Horizons sold than wooden case and did >they "soon" switch to a metal case? > > When an accounting firm in the Kansas City area purged these in the late 80's they had two wooden cased horizons, and probably 30 of the metal cased ones that they had pulled in from clients, complete with soroc terminals, and modems, etc. I could only see (and afford to store) about 10 of them total, and pulled parts from others. I don't know if this ratio is valid for their overall run of horizons, but i have seen other similar piles show up (with the same ratio). Anyone know the ratio of business sales (as this one was) to hobbiest or home use, where the wood cover likely was the prefered look? Jim From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Jan 19 13:04:03 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:04:03 -0800 Subject: M4 9914 tape loading questions In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060119115440.0557f370@mail> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060119115440.0557f370@mail> Message-ID: <43CFE2A3.4010704@msm.umr.edu> John Foust wrote: >I'm tinkering with the first of the three 9-track units I acquired recently. >This is the M4 9914, a seemingly very nice unit in that it was clean, >powers up and acts from the front panel buttons, and that it handles >800 BPI as well as 1600 and 6250. > >Mind you, I'm old enough to still have a stack of tapes that I used in >college in the early 80s, but I'm not old enough to have worked behind >the counter with the big VAXes and UNIVAC. I might've written a tape >or two in person under PDP Unix, but I probably did it under the >watchful eyes of someone more experienced. > >The first time I tried to load a tape, the vacuum fed the tape correctly >back to the takeup reel but it was not picked up on the reel. >The notched leader on the tape is in good shape, but it did not engage. > >I unscrewed the top of the takeup reel and was puzzled. I expected >to see a mechanism to hook the leader (as you see inside a DLT, >for example.) The takeup reel hub is smooth. It does have openings >on the lower half, and the hub is certainly part of the vacuum path. >Is vacuum alone supposed to grab the tape and hold it to the takeup reel? > >Most other times I loaded a tape, the tape didn't move smoothly back to >the take reel. It bunched up after hitting obstacles along the path. > >I do not yet have the user or service manuals for the M4 9914. I did find >several manuals for similar units (HP 88780) on Bitsavers. I googled >quite a bit to find the definitive 9-track history and preservation >site but I haven't found it yet... > >- John > > > > first: removing the top of the reel was a bad idea. It's parallel alignment to the bottom of that reel is key to the proper function and handling of the tape. put it back on very carefully and pray. second. the finish on the hub is such that static and air forces cause the tape to wrap around the reel. Most half inch tapes only had a twirl of the tape around the takeup reel once to capture the tape. same as with home 1/4" tapes. In this case the velocity, air pressures, and the design and alignment of the takeup reel are very carefully done (holes in the top of the reel to exhast the air is key too, so hope you remember where that was.) to make the tape capture on the reel. Fact is, it will more naturally wrap around that if you can keep it from doing the accordion pile up at the entry to that chamber than anything else. the usual failure is that the tape will not extend to the takeup reel hub, but will curl up or otherwise misbehave when it is blown into the chamber. It will have a lot of non laminar flow of air from the air feed past the head, so it will be flapping there and so the trick is to have it have at least the distance from the entry to the takeup reel chamber to the hub length of tape that is nicely shaped, and to have a nice flat leader once it wraps. after a few turns of the takeup reel it should lock down. The drive senses this change in motor torque and assumes the tape is captured. Sometimes all you need to do is just wipe the first foot or so of tape on a reel with a clean cloth and try it again (assuming it is not wrecked or damaged). and it will work. Jim From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Jan 19 13:17:10 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:17:10 -0500 Subject: Panasonic HHC (Moto 68764) chips & carriers Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060119141314.01bec040@mail.30below.com> Just in case anyone was wondering what the Panasonic HHC chips w/ carriers (Motorol a 68764 / 68766 EPROMS) looked like, I took a few pictures this morning and put 'em in a subdirectory on the web. I tried to get you as many angles & whatnot as I can, and my camera's a "lo-end pro" 6MP (Nikon D70) but with no macro lens, I had to crop the pix some. If you need more detail, lemme know and I can take more pix tonite. The cropped .jpgs are around 500K each. The resolution is around 2000x700 pixels or so. http://www.30below.com/~zmerch/classics/chips/ These chips are indicative of what I have "straight outta da bag" - they'll need to be cleaned (some still have labels) before being erased but if I see any physical defects I throw 'em away. Anywho, as always, if you have any questions, please feel free to ask! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Jan 19 13:32:18 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:32:18 -0500 Subject: M4 9914 tape loading questions In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:04:03 PST." <43CFE2A3.4010704@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200601191932.k0JJWItV031027@mwave.heeltoe.com> I would clean the entire insides with an alcohol wipe and use a known good (and hopefully modern tape) the first time. My cyphers flap the tape around a lot inside as they load but they eventually suck the tape in and around the takeup reel. older tapes can sometimes have lots of attraction - sometimes due to static charge and sometimes due to hydrolyzed binder. Or both. -brad From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Jan 19 13:40:44 2006 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:40:44 -0500 Subject: Ebay Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <43CFBB08.53F842E2@rain.org> Message-ID: > 2) What other computers were sold in a "wooden case"? The Sol-20 comes > instantly to mind as well as the Polymorphic 8010 and 8013 series of > computers. How many others were there? Ohio Scientific C4P. See picture of my VCF East 2.0 display on the VCF web site. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Jan 19 12:47:20 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:47:20 +0000 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: Your message of "19 Jan 2006 17:12:23 +0100." <87vewg5h94.fsf@tigerman.ealaddin.org> Message-ID: <200601191847.SAA28500@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Christian Groessler said: > Hi, > > regarding the CGA, the technical manual mentions a 160x200 mode with > more that 4 colors. It doesn't give any more information on how to > enable this mode, though. > > Does anyone on this list know how to enable this mode, or better, has > a demo program which does that? I thought that was only on the PCJr. Anyway my notes say it's video mode 8. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Thu Jan 19 14:01:44 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:01:44 -0000 Subject: Ebay Northstar Horizon References: <200601191032550987.0AA5D7D3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <005001c61d33$2c0fac00$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> A UK firm, local to my parents was offering PCs in wooden cases last year. Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2006 6:32 PM Subject: Re: Ebay Northstar Horizon > On 1/19/2006 at 10:02 AM Richard wrote: > > >> 2) What other computers were sold in a "wooden case"? The Sol-20 comes > >> instantly to mind as well as the Polymorphic 8010 and 8013 series of > >> computers. How many others were there? > > > >According to Collectible Microcomputers, there was a machine > >manufactured in Utah (Bountiful, if memory serves me correctly) that > >was in a wooden case. > > There is also another very rare bird, produced out of Berkeley, CA called > the "People's Computer". You'll see a definition in 22DISK for one. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/234 - Release Date: 18/01/06 > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jan 19 14:09:31 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:09:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ebay Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <200601192009.MAA06915@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Marvin Johnston" > > >I was just checking out some stuff on ebay (hanging my head) and ran >across a Northstar Horizon that sold for $551.00. In it, the (fiction?) >writer says: > >"Originally, the cases were wooden, but the company soon switched to a >blue metal cover. Hence, those computers with original wooden cases are >more highly sought after than those with the more common metal cases." Hi I suspect that there were more metal case unit sold. Most of these were used in rack mounted applications and were crunched up when the machines they were in were destroyed. I don't think that the RFI was an issue when N* was making the wooden cased units. I think that came on later. The wooden cases were just to make desk units look pretty. I believe they sold both the metal cased and wooden cased units at the same time. Dwight > >Also: > >"The only known computer to be sold in a wooden case, this collector's >item features its original, walnut-stained wooden case." > >Looks like some just plain wrong information, but ... > >1) Were there more metal case Horizons sold than wooden case and did >they "soon" switch to a metal case? > >2) What other computers were sold in a "wooden case"? The Sol-20 comes >instantly to mind as well as the Polymorphic 8010 and 8013 series of >computers. How many others were there? From cpg at aladdin.de Thu Jan 19 14:35:54 2006 From: cpg at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler) Date: 19 Jan 2006 21:35:54 +0100 Subject: CGA 160x100 mode? (was: Preventing CGA revisionist history) Message-ID: <87acdsymz9.fsf@langhals.groessler.org.> Original Message from Stan Barr > > Hi, > > Christian Groessler said: > > Hi, > > > > regarding the CGA, the technical manual mentions a 160x200 mode with > > more that 4 colors. It doesn't give any more information on how to > > enable this mode, though. > > > > Does anyone on this list know how to enable this mode, or > better, has > > a demo program which does that? > > I thought that was only on the PCJr. Anyway my notes say it's video > mode 8. I just looked at the PC (no Jr) technical manual again, and I was remembering incorrectly, the mode was 160x100, not 160x200. And it should be able to display 16 colors. I cannot recall any program using this mode (at least I didn't notice at the time). Does it really exist? regards, chris From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 19 14:40:56 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:40:56 -0700 Subject: Ebay Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:01:44 +0000. <005001c61d33$2c0fac00$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: In article <005001c61d33$2c0fac00$0200a8c0 at ntlworld.com>, "Jim Beacon" writes: > A UK firm, local to my parents was offering PCs in wooden cases last year. Hopefully the wood was a cosmetic look for the exterior of the case and they had some sort of shielding inside! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jan 19 14:49:19 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:49:19 -0600 Subject: M4 9914 tape loading questions In-Reply-To: <43CFE2A3.4010704@msm.umr.edu> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060119115440.0557f370@mail> <43CFE2A3.4010704@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060119144242.0452b9f8@mail> At 01:04 PM 1/19/2006, jim stephens wrote: >first: removing the top of the reel was a bad idea. It's parallel alignment to >the bottom of that reel is key to the proper function and handling of the tape. >put it back on very carefully and pray. It actually seems to be working better now, for what it's worth. :-) Yes, I replaced the lid in the same orientation with respect to its one large air hole. I watched the process more closely. Perhaps the tape *does* engage on the takeup reel. As it loads, it unrolls from the tape. The tape seems taut. It feeds a bit from the reel to the takeup for a few seconds, then stops and rewinds back completely to the source reel. Then the display says "N T U". However, my slight suspicion is that it hadn't actually engaged because the take-up reel seemed to be turning slightly more quickly than the source reel - as if it hadn't "stuck". >shaped, and to have a nice flat leader once it wraps. after a few turns of the takeup reel >it should lock down. The drive senses this change in motor torque and assumes the tape is >captured. My first guess for a tweak would've been to bend the leader slightly to favor its wrapping around the takeup reel. >Sometimes all you need to do is just wipe the first foot or so of tape on a reel with a clean cloth and try it again (assuming it is not wrecked or damaged). and it will work. Clean, dry cloth? To remove dust, reduce slickness or increase static? Or a TexWipe? - John From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jan 19 14:58:07 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:58:07 -0600 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <87vewg5h94.fsf@tigerman.ealaddin.org> References: <87vewg5h94.fsf@tigerman.ealaddin.org> Message-ID: <43CFFD5F.50002@oldskool.org> Christian Groessler wrote: > Does anyone on this list know how to enable this mode, or better, has > a demo program which does that? It's text mode, ironically. You enable 80-col textmode and then quarter the character cell height with a few port writes to get "80x100" with the top two scanlines of every character cell showing. Then you just use ASCII 221 and 223 (the "left half" and "right half" blocks), et voila: 160x100 in 16 colors. I wrote a CGA library last year in pascal+asm and will be putting it online with screenshots and photos in an effort to help emulator authors; I'll post the URL here when I'm finished. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jan 19 15:02:06 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:02:06 -0600 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <200601191847.SAA28500@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200601191847.SAA28500@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <43CFFE4E.1000907@oldskool.org> Stan Barr wrote: > I thought that was only on the PCJr. Anyway my notes say it's video > mode 8. On the PCjr, it is mode 8. On the PC, you had to go through the textmode trickery I explained in my last post. The advantage of the PCjr mode (and composite color mode on stock CGA, another 160x200 mode) is that there is no character/attribute waste: A single byte holds 2 pixels. It was a great mode for games because the simplicity of pixel packing was fast: mov al,pixel1 mov cl,4 shl al,cl or al,pixel2 Only MCGA 320x200x256 was faster. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jan 19 15:01:58 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:01:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43CFFD5F.50002@oldskool.org> References: <87vewg5h94.fsf@tigerman.ealaddin.org> <43CFFD5F.50002@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200601192103.QAA23542@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Then you just use ASCII 221 and 223 Nitpick: ASCII is a 7-bit code; there is no such thing as ASCII 221 or 223. (You presumably mean "stuff 221 or 223 in the corresponding character-cell location", but strictly speaking that's got nothing to do with ASCII.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jan 19 15:22:53 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:22:53 -0600 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <200601192103.QAA23542@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <87vewg5h94.fsf@tigerman.ealaddin.org> <43CFFD5F.50002@oldskool.org> <200601192103.QAA23542@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43D0032D.3000900@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: >>Then you just use ASCII 221 and 223 > > Nitpick: ASCII is a 7-bit code; there is no such thing as ASCII 221 or Sorry, I thought it was self-evident. BTW, I misspoke: You choose either 221 or 223 to fill every character cell, then you use the right nybble or left nybble of the attribute byte to actually set the colors. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 19 15:27:56 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:27:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43CFFD5F.50002@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Jan 19, 6 02:58:07 pm" Message-ID: <200601192127.NAA13466@floodgap.com> > I wrote a CGA library last year in pascal+asm and will be putting it > online with screenshots and photos in an effort to help emulator > authors; I'll post the URL here when I'm finished. I'd be very interested myself. Thanks :) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you think ignorance is expensive, try education. ------------------------ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 19 15:42:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:42:07 -0800 Subject: MASM 6.1 vs 6.11 In-Reply-To: <43CF2B0A.8060708@oldskool.org> References: <43CDA45E.6050007@brutman.com> <200601171949320390.0256BF81@mail.sydex.com> <43CDC4AD.3060008@brutman.com> <20060117234443.14eeeb12.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200601180017140348.034BD296@mail.sydex.com> <20060118182218.62433a13.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43CEF2C9.7060901@brutman.com> <200601181857010178.074CFF9E@10.0.0.252> <43CF2B0A.8060708@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200601191342070692.0B53165B@10.0.0.252> On 1/19/2006 at 12:00 AM Jim Leonard wrote: >And what's everyone's opinion on IDEAL mode? I find people either love >macros/high-level structure stuff in an assembler, or completely hate it... It's like any preprocessor. You can obscure what you're trying to do with too much content; on the other hand, a preprocessor can be a real godsend. Before MASM incorporated things like CALL with argument-list and procedure-local variables, I had a nice macro library that essentially did the same thing. I still use macros to do things like maintain enum list orderings and encapsulate little things like I/O delays. But by and large, with the MASM 6 improvements, I use macros very sparingly. But that's not to say that there's no use for them. Suppose I wanted to write a cross-assembler for some alien CPU. If the restrictions on binary format weren''t too onerous, I'd probably just write up a bunch of macros and let MASM do the grunt work. Similarly, when programming Windoze DLL's and device drivers, macros can come in very handy to encapsulate the Windows-specific conventions. Occasionally, you have the task of taking a list of data items and creating a complex structure with them. Macros make the job easy. I occasionally wish that C's preprocessor were more powerful, like that of PL/I. But while the C preprocessor is standard, I've seen assembler macro facilities that were so weak as to be almost useless and some that were wonders (support for macro arrays, typed variables and so on). Years ago, a friend wrote an assembler for the amZ8000. He wasn't much of an assembly-language writer, but he was a real compiler guru. So the result was an assembler with a syntax that resembled a HLL. I wasn't sure that I liked the idea. Assembly is the first cousin to machine language and ought not to overly obscure that relationship. Cheers, Chuck From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jan 19 15:45:44 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 13:45:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ebay Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <200601192145.NAA09776@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Richard" > > >In article <005001c61d33$2c0fac00$0200a8c0 at ntlworld.com>, > "Jim Beacon" writes: > >> A UK firm, local to my parents was offering PCs in wooden cases last year. > >Hopefully the wood was a cosmetic look for the exterior of the case >and they had some sort of shielding inside! Hi Not on the Plymophic ones. It is just a wood cover over a U shaped metal chassis. I've not checked to see how much it does radiate to radios and TV's. I suspect it isn't much worse than a typical home setup with unshielded cables to printers and such. Dwight From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Jan 19 16:08:38 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:08:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43D0032D.3000900@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20060119220838.EF62958120@mail.wordstock.com> > > der Mouse wrote: > >>Then you just use ASCII 221 and 223 > > > > Nitpick: ASCII is a 7-bit code; there is no such thing as ASCII 221 or > > Sorry, I thought it was self-evident. > > BTW, I misspoke: You choose either 221 or 223 to fill every character > cell, then you use the right nybble or left nybble of the attribute byte > to actually set the colors. This sounds almost like doing colours when doing graphics on the C64! Cheers, Bryan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 19 16:24:35 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 14:24:35 -0800 Subject: Ebay Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <200601192145.NAA09776@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200601192145.NAA09776@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <200601191424350856.0B79F81F@10.0.0.252> On 1/19/2006 at 1:45 PM Dwight Elvey wrote: > Not on the Plymophic ones. It is just a wood cover over a U >shaped metal chassis. I've not checked to see how much it >does radiate to radios and TV's. I suspect it isn't much >worse than a typical home setup with unshielded cables >to printers and such. Fortunately, there exists special paint to deal with the RFI problem: http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/841.html is one and there are others. A lot of the plastic enclosures were simply zinc arc coated. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 19 16:32:18 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 22:32:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP82971 ROM/EPROM module Message-ID: I've just got an HP82971A RPTOM/ROM module on E-bay... I thought from the description and part number that this was probably for the HP Integral PC. And it seems I was right. I've not fully investigated it yet, but I've traced a few connections from the DIN 41612 connector through buffers to the EPROM sockets, and they all make sense. It's a single PCB, normal Integral expansion card size, with the plastic cover on the bottom and the normal bracket on the back. On the board are a few TTL chips, mostly buffers, 16 28-pin DIL sockets for the EPROMs, 3 8-poisition DIP switches and not a lot else >From a quick look at the conenctions, it would appear that the DIP switches set the start address and also configure the board for one of 3 different types of EPROM (I would guess either 2764, 27128, 27256 or 27128, 27256, 27512). I think all EPROMs have to be the same type. The sockets are helpfully labelled 0L, 0H up to 7L, 7H. There's also a 64 pin header socket and mounting pillars for a daughterboard. The socket iw wired pin-for-pin with the DIN41612 socket that plugs into the Integral backplane. And the 2 EPROM sockets near the centre of the bracket are actually individual contacts soldered into the PCB, thuse making those lower profile than the others and leaving space for a connector on the daughterboard to come through a hole in the bracket. I am sure the hardware won't bother me at all, but I don't know the format of the ROM images. I asusme they appear as a read-only filesystem to HPUX, and that there are therfore headers in each EPROM containing the filenames, sizes, start location, etc. Any ideas as to the format of that? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 19 14:17:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:17:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43CF1D7B.6050105@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jan 18, 6 11:02:51 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > I don't think this is a historical accident. > > Wait a second -- while your explanation very completely explains HOW, it > does not explain WHY. Why did IBM go through all that trouble to turn > #6 brown? I think you misuderstood me. My comment was intended to mean that it's not a historical accident that the colour 6 looked brown on the original CGA monitor -- for example that the phosphors used and the greyscale setup gave that effect. There was a deliberate attempt to make the colour look brown. As to _why_, I can't say. I can only look at the scehamtics and tell you what happens. I don't have a link to the brains of the designers :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 19 14:12:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:12:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <200601181831560049.07360880@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 18, 6 06:31:56 pm Message-ID: > > On 1/18/2006 at 5:08 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >I doubt it. I seem to rememebr a PROM in the input stages of the 5154 > >monitor, which may well have done the same conversion, though. > > Darn--you're right. On page 4 of the EGA display tech ref, there's a table > that says "When operating in Mode 1, the display maps the 4 input bits into Yes, I noticed that last night when I did a little bedtime reading. > 16 of the possible 64 colors as shown in the following table" While bright > yellow (color 14) is given as RrGgb, color 6 is given as Rg (brown), > where dark yellow would be RG. How very strange to special-case it in the > monitor! Probably done because the EGA could drive a CGA monitor and > that already had the brown special-casing. Yes. The EGA card could drive a CGA monitor in the 16 colour modes, and I guess it made more sense to make the EGA monitor compatible with the CGA-like signals than to have duplicated modes in the card, one set for the CGA monitor, the other for the EGA monitor. At which point the EGA monitor pretty much has to do the brown-kludge for compatabiliity. > > I'm not inclined to check the PGA BIOS, but the PGA display appears not to > do the color re-mapping. IIRC the PGA monitor has analogue inputs, and does what you'd expect. Alas my PGA techref doesn't contain the BIOS source or the source for the firmware for the 8088 on the card. Actually, _is_ there a BIOS for the PGA card? It's been a long time since I read that techref, but I thought it exactly emulated the CGA card and would therefore use the normal CGA bios (in the mainboard ROMs). To do anything more fancy you loaded special software from disk. Again a guess, but I would think the PGA card does some sort of brown-kludge in the colour lookup tables when doing the CGA emulation. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 19 14:13:26 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:13:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <20060118184519.G23331@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 18, 6 06:47:25 pm Message-ID: > > In addition to the BROWN v Yellow, > there were differences in the handling of BRIGHT BLACK. > (Joe Campbell borrowed a "real" CGA card from me when he > found out that his Corona did not give the same color as IBM.) Surely any differences were in the monitor. Given that there are 16 possible colours, and 4 bits on the output DE9, it's hard to see how the purely-digital card could make any difference. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 19 16:12:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 22:12:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK07 questions In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2629@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Jan 19, 6 08:01:44 am Message-ID: > > OK. It sounds like your drive is basically working. What I'd > > do at this point is look at the prints to see what should > > drive the ready lamp. And then check back from the output > > stage until you can find out why it's not being turned on. I > > can dig out my prints and take a look too. > > That's exactly what I intend to do :-) but I will first have > a look on the behaviour of the other two drives, while I'm at it. OK, I've dug out my prints... Firstly there's a useful flowchart of the drive operation at the start. Watch out. it was wirtten for the RK06, and it sometimes talks about the M7707 module which was replaced by the M7907 in the RK07. In particular, the last couple of blocks in the spi-up sequence are : Reset FWD FF and RTZ FF Disable FWD servo Enable Position Mode - Detent on next servo crossing [B After 3ms Set Ready FF Ready indicator lights Set DSC FF and generate ATTN Nwo, from the M79078 schemtic, the FWD LED and the RTZ LED are driven directly from the flip-flops of those names. So the fact that they both go off in your drive seems to indicate that the FWD and RTZ FFs are being reset. Now the operator control panel includes the drivers for the ready lamp. Just to avoid looking for a fault in the wrong place, I'd monitor pin 6 (or 7) of E3 on that board. It should go high to turn on the ready lamp. If it does, the problem is on the operator control panel board (possibly E3, the bulb, associated tracks, etc) It would appaera from a quick glance at the prints, that what actually sets the ready FF is the signal SCR MOVE L at the output of E22e on the M7907. This goes high when the heads are not seeking (intially when the servo locks to cylinder 9). This should trigger E47a (74123) on the M7705 board, which according to the prints is the 3ms delay. The output of that clocks a 1 into E43a (7474) on the same board, whcih is the ready flip-flop. Now, what other signals could prevent this from happening? Firstly, DC1 UNLD NEDS (1) L, but since the unload LED isn't coming on, we can probably ignore this. Then there are a couple of OFFSET control signals from sheet SC2 that og into E49a on the M7705. The output of this gate should be high, I think (check this). And there's SA3 BET LIM (1) H, which could hld E47a reset. I am not sure about that signal name, from what I can see it originates on sheet SC4, and seems to detect when the head has got to the outer limit. You may want to check this circuit too. Anyway, some things to look at. When we find why the ready FF is not being set, we can go back through the circuit some more. -tony From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jan 19 16:43:45 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:43:45 -0500 Subject: batch on RT11 w/TSX+ In-Reply-To: <200601181434.54712.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <003f01c61bd8$eda8b3e0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> <43CEB450.80205@compsys.to> <200601181434.54712.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <43D01621.9040408@compsys.to> >Lyle Bickley wrote: >>On Wednesday 18 January 2006 13:34, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> >Jay West wrote: >> >>>I was wondering if somone knew the answer to this... is BATCH >>>supported on RT11 that is running TSX+? I know it's supported on RT11, >>>but I thought I saw somewhere that once you loaded TSX+ that you >>>couldn't run BATCH because of some conflict. Anyone know the straight >>>scoop on this? >>> >>Jerome Fine replies: >> >>Under RT-11, BATCH is supported via the BA(X).SYS >>device driver, as well as other hooks in the operating >>system. >> >>When TSX-PLUS is run, the Resident Monitor (RT11XM) >>is completely replaced along with the Keyboard (KMON) >>and the User Service Routine (USR). There are also >>minor changes to some of the device drivers. Most >>of the utility programs run as is without change. >> >Yes - except that SETSIZ.COM is run (executing SETSIZ.SAV) as part of the >install process, and modifies the RT utility binaries to include the actual >amount of memory required for them to run under TSX+. (BTW, the utilities >work fine with RT-11 after the "patch"). > > Jerome Fine replies: In my reply, I was attempting to emphasize for those who were not aware just how different the TSX-PLUS code is from RT-11. And while I agree that the SETSIZ.SAV program helps TSX-PLUS to know a bit more information than is supplied by the RT-11 linker (LINK.SAV - or at least I presume that is the case) and that the utility binary, or any other application SAV file for that matter, has a word or two added for that purpose. I never was interested enough to do a BINCOM comparison before and after to see exactly what was done. >>Since there is no BA.TSX device driver, you can't >>run BATCH under TSX-PLUS. Part of the reason may >>be that SL: (the RT-11 Single Line Editor - similar >>to some of the stuff done by DOSKEY in DOS) is built >>into TSX-PLUS rather than being a separate device >>driver as in RT-11 which uses SL(X).SYS to perform >>the functions. Since SL: and BA: can't run at the >>same time in RT-11 and since SL: seems to be built >>into TSX-PLUS, perhaps that is part of the reason >>that BATCH is not supported. >> >SL can be removed from TSX as part of the install (TSGEN) process. However, as >you stated, a BA.TSX is not present and therefore "batch" is not even "seen" >by TSX+. > I tend to remember that there is an OBJ module (part of one of the large OBJ (non-library) TSX-PLUS files for the SL code. Running LIBR provides the names of all of the modules in each OBJ file. I did that once when I had to transfer an actual patch from V3.1 of TSX-PLUS to V6.5 of TSX-PLUS as part of a Y2K upgrade. >The System Manager's Guide says "The following RT-11 device handlers are >unsupported under TSX-Plus: BA (resident batch handler), EL (error logging >pseudohandler), and PD (PDT-11/130/150 handler). The ethernet drivers, NC, >NQ, and NU are not supported. Also the IBSRQ function of the GPIB IEEE IB >handler is unsupported." > I find it very annoying when a company used the same description to apply to software components that had been tested and seem to work and others that were known to completely fail. That seems to be what was normal in the 1980s - now I guess it is even worse since now even components written by the actual manufacturer also completely fail, under often normal conditions. Of course, RT-11 still does that as well, just not as often since most of the bugs are gone. What about TSX-PLUS bugs. I don't know of any right now. Looking at the code might turn up a few! That is how I found one of the fatal bugs in RT-11, although I admit I was looking at that code which causes the crash because a device driver written by DEC caused the same crash to occur when certain similar conditions were present. >>However, I doubt if >>anyone knows the internals of both RT-11 and TSX-PLUS >>sufficiently to comment. >> >That is almost correct ;-) > >I've been spending a fair amount of energy studying the internals based on the >TSX-Plus "Programmers Reference Manual", "System Manager's Guide" and the >"User's Reference Manual". I've also been asking a LOT of questions on the OS >from the person who architected TSX and ran the company who developed and >sold the product. I figure that when I release TSX-Plus, I'll essentially be >as close to "tech support" as we can have for a while - along with all the >folks who have been playing with licensed versions of the software for years. > >Even though almost all of the source code was lost (I found some scattered >pieces on the development Fujitsu 2312 drive). I did pay do have all of the >TSX-Plus listings (4 boxes worth!) shipped to me here in California. I passed >them on to Al Kossow (bitsavers.org) so he could scan them and make them >available to the world (I have permission from the owner to do so). So at >some point we'll all have all of the "internals" :-) > > I had been aware for some time that the listings were still around. The comments on the code should be priceless for individuals who are still running TSX-PLUS. However, I very much doubt that the code contains ALL of the "internals". Surely there must have been internal manuals as well, just as there must have been with RT-11. However, because a TSX-PLUS SYSGEN was done using the OBJ files, a great deal of information is still available in what are essentially machine readable source files - BUT WITHOUT COMMENTS. The trick is to convert those OBJ files into MAC files without comments. The only application from DECUS which ever came close was UNMAC. The DECUS version was reasonable as far as the code was concerned, it just can't handle the normal TSX-PLUS OBJ modules due to the HUGE number of GLOBALs - at last count I seem to remember over 1600 when I attempted to UNMAC the module TSUSR.OBJ in TSX2.OBJ again if my memory has not failed. If anyone is ever interested in reproducing the MAC files and scanning the listings could use extra help in the form of uncommented source, let me know. >In the meantime, the TSX-Plus manuals do describe in detail how to modify >DEC's handlers for operation under TSX-Plus - and a fair amount of detail on >TSX-Plus internals. The more I study, the more I'm impressed with this OS!!! > I also am VERY impressed. BUT, looking at the code for TSUSR.OBJ leads me to consider that the code was produced subject to rules which only TSX-PLUS programmers knew about. Certainly, this one example uses a lot of extra words that are not needed for normal coding. There must have been very good reasons why so many extra words were used. By the way, the reason I looked at the code for TSUSR was that I wanted to add the extra hooks that I had added to the RT-11 USR. >From what I saw, I doubt that TSX-PLUS handles physical device names in the same manner as RT-11. So where it is possible to tell RT-11 to override: ASSIGN DL3: DX0: and use the actual physical DX0: drive instead, I don't know how to do that under TSX-PLUS when there is an actual physical RX01 drive on the hardware and there is a reason to use the physical RX01 drive in addition to the ASSIGN symbol of DL3: during the course of executing a specific program. RT-11 probably had internal manuals which were never released (and might now have been lost) that might still be available via the development team members who with RT-11 in 1992 when V05.06 of RT-11 was finally released on August 31st, 1992 after which DEC placed RT-11 on life support - or lack of life support depending on which side of the fence you are on. Likewise I would assume that TSX-PLUS had internal manuals as well. Did any NEVER published manuals turn up in addition to the source listings and the standard published manual set from S&H for TSX-PLUS of about 4" of paper? I have several original sets for versions of TSX-PLUS prior to V6.5 of TSX-PLUS in addition to the manual set for the last V6.5 of TSX-PLUS. What I don't have is any of the applications or manuals. >>Does this information provide enough of an answer? >> >>The answer Lyle suggested provides an alternative. >>A command file can be used to run the job, but >>the results might not be quite the same. On the >>other hand, once BATCH is running under RT-11, >>can you use the background job? Since I don't >>use BATCH myself (anything I want done I am not >>able to continue with anything else, so a command >>file is sufficient), please let me know if KMON >>is still available to the user? If only system >>jobs can still be run, that is not very useful. >> >Since detached jobs, spooling and indirect command files are available under >TSX-Plus, my guess is that anything you could do with Batch under RT would be >"doable" under TSX-Plus (with some modification to the batch file). > In a few cases, a LOT of modifications to the batch file. In most cases, likely very little and quite easy to do! I never bothered much with batch files, so I can't really comment. The really big advantage with TSX-PLUS is that running a command file in even a normal job will not interfere much, if at all, with an interactive job when the job priority is set up for that situation. I can't remember right now how it is done, but I seem to remember that any privileged job could set the priority of any job, including its own priority. Does a BATCH file under RT-11 run in the background job? I don't have the manuals in my lap, so asking for help is faster. By the way, I again doubt if anyone is interested, but I can now calculate the natural logarithm of 16 bit integers when done in sequence with a precision of about 150 decimal places. The next goal is to calculate li(10**n) for n up to 100. The basic requirement for li(x) is log(x) and log(log(x)) in addition to the inverse of n (i.e. 1/n) up to about n = 5000, I do not anticipate any further technical difficulties. The only likely problems are roundoff and / or truncation errors which could be larger than anticipated. If there is any interest, please ask a question. Very quickly, for those who don't remember: log(10**n) = n * log (10) log(log(10**n) = log(n) + log(log(10)) I expect that very soon I will find out at what value of k the expression: [log(10**n)]**k/k! becomes less than 1/2**512. As an estimate, I know that 34! > 2**128 since that value overflows with REAL * 8 floating point values. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jan 19 16:44:10 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:44:10 -0500 Subject: batch on RT11 w/TSX+ In-Reply-To: <00a901c61ca1$63fb6510$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> References: <003f01c61bd8$eda8b3e0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458><43CEB450.80205@compsys.to> <200601181434.54712.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <00a901c61ca1$63fb6510$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Message-ID: <43D0163A.6020805@compsys.to> >Jay West wrote: > >Lyle wrote... > >> SL can be removed from TSX as part of the install (TSGEN) process. >> However, as >> you stated, a BA.TSX is not present and therefore "batch" is not even >> "seen" >> by TSX+. > > So, then I could dig into the section of the manuals that talks about > changing a RT11 device driver to run under TSX... and maybe hack up BA > to work ... :) > Thanks for the ideas! Jerome Fine replies: Before you get too happy, check and see what BA.MAC does to RT-11 for the required services. Then see if TSX-PLUS even has the same services. I suppose that the required services might be available, but will likely have different names in TSX-PLUS. This information is probably part of the internal documentation for both RT-11 and TSX-PLUS, although I may also be writing about stuff I don't know enough about. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jan 19 17:06:08 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:06:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ebay Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <200601192306.PAA12348@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 1/19/2006 at 1:45 PM Dwight Elvey wrote: > >> Not on the Plymophic ones. It is just a wood cover over a U >>shaped metal chassis. I've not checked to see how much it >>does radiate to radios and TV's. I suspect it isn't much >>worse than a typical home setup with unshielded cables >>to printers and such. > >Fortunately, there exists special paint to deal with the RFI problem: > >http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/841.html > >is one and there are others. > >A lot of the plastic enclosures were simply zinc arc coated. > >Cheers, >Chuck > Hi Yes, Intel did this on their Series II machines after they had static problems. It killed two birds. Both the static problem and the RFI. Note: I miss-spelled Polymorphic. Later Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 19 17:28:25 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:28:25 -0800 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601191528250129.0BB465E1@10.0.0.252> On 1/19/2006 at 8:12 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >IIRC the PGA monitor has analogue inputs, and does what you'd expect. Yup, it is indeed analogue. >Alas my PGA techref doesn't contain the BIOS source or the source for the >firmware for the 8088 on the card. Actually, _is_ there a BIOS for the >PGA card? It's been a long time since I read that techref, but I thought >it exactly emulated the CGA card and would therefore use the normal CGA >bios (in the mainboard ROMs). To do anything more fancy you loaded >special software from disk. There was a PROM on the PGA, but it was for the onboard 8088. Probably no BIOS per se. Probably the first shot in the "my graphics adapter has more computational power than my motherboard" modern trend, although in the case of the PGA, it was just an 8088 on the adapter, not anything fancier. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 19 17:35:44 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:35:44 -0800 Subject: Ebay Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <200601192306.PAA12348@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200601192306.PAA12348@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <200601191535440548.0BBB1A4B@10.0.0.252> On 1/19/2006 at 3:06 PM Dwight Elvey wrote: > Yes, Intel did this on their Series II machines after >they had static problems. It killed two birds. Both >the static problem and the RFI. IIRC, the Intel boxes weren't plastic per se, but rather high-density structural foam. I recall that the model shop guys built the first enclosure for our prototype using acrylic (Plexiglas), which being clear looked pretty nifty, but then moved to foam once the design was finalized. The foam was funny--the shop devised a gag of making root beer ice-cream floats in paper cups and interspersing a couple in the bunch filled with structural foam, complete with straw and plastic spoon. AFAIK, all such enclosures are painted--the native color of structural foam is an unappealing yellow brown. Most of the paint shops added zinc arc coatings once using foam caught on. Cheers, Chuck From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jan 19 17:59:42 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:59:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ebay Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <200601192359.PAA13955@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 1/19/2006 at 3:06 PM Dwight Elvey wrote: > >> Yes, Intel did this on their Series II machines after >>they had static problems. It killed two birds. Both >>the static problem and the RFI. > >IIRC, the Intel boxes weren't plastic per se, but rather high-density >structural foam. I recall that the model shop guys built the first >enclosure for our prototype using acrylic (Plexiglas), which being clear >looked pretty nifty, but then moved to foam once the design was finalized. > The foam was funny--the shop devised a gag of making root beer ice-cream >floats in paper cups and interspersing a couple in the bunch filled with >structural foam, complete with straw and plastic spoon. > >AFAIK, all such enclosures are painted--the native color of structural foam >is an unappealing yellow brown. Most of the paint shops added zinc arc >coatings once using foam caught on. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > Hi Chuck The early intel ones were just painted with the Intel blue. It wasn't until after the static discharge problems became recognized that they started to use the internal coat and connected it to ground. But, yes, it was not plastic. It was a lot lighter than plastic but the entire unit is still quite heavy. It was still using linear supplies. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 19 18:13:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 00:13:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <200601191528250129.0BB465E1@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 19, 6 03:28:25 pm Message-ID: > > There was a PROM on the PGA, but it was for the onboard 8088. Probably no > BIOS per se. Probably the first shot in the "my graphics adapter has more That's what I thought... It was an odd device. IIRC in the high-res (better than CGA) mode, you couldn't access the video memory directly. You had to send it commands (draw a line, etc). Presumably it was not great for animations therefore... It's still like to find one. > computational power than my motherboard" modern trend, although in the case > of the PGA, it was just an 8088 on the adapter, not anything fancier. Talking of peripherals with more power then their host, I'm currently working on some old Epson laptops. The TF20 floppy drive is rather overpowered fro the time. It could be used with the HX20, which had a couple of 6301 processors and 16K RAM. The TF20, though, contains a Z80 and 64K RAM. About the same as the (CP/M) desktop computers of its time. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 19 18:17:32 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 00:17:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP9000/382 docs Message-ID: Somebody here (Joe?) was asking for configuration infromation for the HP9000/382 I think There's a CE handbook (boardswapper guide ;-)) on http://www.hpmuseum.net/ It has some info on the video links, but from what I can see there are just 2 of them. One disables the on-board video (and allows the use of a DIO video card), the other must be set to the 'Color' position. That site has quite a number of useful HP manuals for larger-than-calculator machines. IIRC it starts from the 2114/2116/2100A series and gores on to the 9000s. Calculators from the 9100 to the 9845 (and HP80 series too). And printers, plotters, storage peripherals, etc. I find it best to follow the 'documentation' on the home page, rather than try to negotiate the individual machine pages. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 19 18:19:27 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:19:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060119161634.Y99406@shell.lmi.net> > > In addition to the BROWN v Yellow, > > there were differences in the handling of BRIGHT BLACK. > > (Joe Campbell borrowed a "real" CGA card from me when he > > found out that his Corona did not give the same color as IBM.) On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > Surely any differences were in the monitor. Given that there are 16 > possible colours, and 4 bits on the output DE9, it's hard to see how the > purely-digital card could make any difference. What SHOULD bright black on black (08) do? What foreground color? what background color? From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jan 19 18:54:30 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:54:30 -0600 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <200601181505480697.0679548F@10.0.0.252> References: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> <1137615221.43cea175578b8@webmail.secure-wi.com> <200601181353020415.0636B4F1@10.0.0.252> <43CEBFD5.6060902@oldskool.org> <200601181505480697.0679548F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43D034C6.6050105@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Okay, here's a grayscale tiff of the first of two pages (the second page I hate to trouble you again, but now there is question from the individual I am trying to convince that the sheet you scanned was from a "later revision" of the tech ref. Can you scan the page with the copyright date on it? Was there a revised tech ref, or just one? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jan 19 18:58:48 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:58:48 -0600 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <20060119220838.EF62958120@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060119220838.EF62958120@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <43D035C8.6050909@oldskool.org> Bryan Pope wrote: > This sounds almost like doing colours when doing graphics on the C64! Yep! However, this: http://www.oldskool.org/pc/8088_Corruption ...is much closer like doing graphics on the C64. I used the CGA ROM FONT itself as the codebook for my video routine. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 19 18:58:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:58:50 -0700 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:28:25 -0800. <200601191528250129.0BB465E1@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200601191528250129.0BB465E1 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > There was a PROM on the PGA, but it was for the onboard 8088. Probably no > BIOS per se. Probably the first shot in the "my graphics adapter has more > computational power than my motherboard" modern trend, although in the case > of the PGA, it was just an 8088 on the adapter, not anything fancier. Someone donated me a CBM 8032 with an 8050 dual 5.25" floppy drive. The floppy drive has twice the CPU horsepower of the main unit :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 19 19:05:59 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:05:59 -0700 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:58:48 -0600. <43D035C8.6050909@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In article <43D035C8.6050909 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard writes: > Yep! However, this: > > http://www.oldskool.org/pc/8088_Corruption Let me i) recommend that you definatley watch this! ii) brag that it was created for my demoparty Pilgrimage where it won 1st place -- and rightly so! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jan 19 19:09:11 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:09:11 -0600 Subject: CGA 160x100 mode? (was: Preventing CGA revisionist history) In-Reply-To: <87acdsymz9.fsf@langhals.groessler.org.> References: <87acdsymz9.fsf@langhals.groessler.org.> Message-ID: <43D03837.9010207@oldskool.org> Christian Groessler wrote: > I cannot recall any program using this mode (at least I didn't notice > at the time). > > Does it really exist? Which one? CGA 160x100? Sure: http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/round-42/screenshots More interestingly, the same mode was used WITHOUT the half-block trick for some truly creative graphics: http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/icon-the-quest-for-the-ring/screenshots/gameShotId,702/ -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Jan 19 19:27:35 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:27:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43D035C8.6050909@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20060120012735.A15415804D@mail.wordstock.com> > > Bryan Pope wrote: > > This sounds almost like doing colours when doing graphics on the C64! > > Yep! However, this: > > http://www.oldskool.org/pc/8088_Corruption > > ...is much closer like doing graphics on the C64. I used the CGA ROM > FONT itself as the codebook for my video routine. OMFG - that is sooo cool... Now let's see if I can get the original working on my (non-retro) machine.. Cheers!, Bryan From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Jan 19 19:34:46 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:34:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43D035C8.6050909@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20060120013446.9CDB858071@mail.wordstock.com> > > Bryan Pope wrote: > > This sounds almost like doing colours when doing graphics on the C64! > > Yep! However, this: > > http://www.oldskool.org/pc/8088_Corruption > > ...is much closer like doing graphics on the C64. I used the CGA ROM > FONT itself as the codebook for my video routine. Oh.. and next time.. more TRON! :) maybe a little WarGames... Cheers, Bryan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 19 19:12:41 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:12:41 -0800 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43D034C6.6050105@oldskool.org> References: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> <1137615221.43cea175578b8@webmail.secure-wi.com> <200601181353020415.0636B4F1@10.0.0.252> <43CEBFD5.6060902@oldskool.org> <200601181505480697.0679548F@10.0.0.252> <43D034C6.6050105@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200601191712410905.0C13DD70@10.0.0.252> On 1/19/2006 at 6:54 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >Was there a revised tech ref, or just one? No date--just a pub number of 6361470, no revision number. The O&A was a "work in progress". Periodically, you were sent a bunch of looseleaf 3-ring sheets to add or exchange in the various sections. I discarded nothing--just moved it to the back of each binder. There's only one CGA display reference, and, as far as I can tell, no updates. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 19 20:12:18 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:12:18 -0800 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <200601191712410905.0C13DD70@10.0.0.252> References: <43CE9119.6070303@oldskool.org> <1137615221.43cea175578b8@webmail.secure-wi.com> <200601181353020415.0636B4F1@10.0.0.252> <43CEBFD5.6060902@oldskool.org> <200601181505480697.0679548F@10.0.0.252> <43D034C6.6050105@oldskool.org> <200601191712410905.0C13DD70@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601191812180731.0C4A70DB@10.0.0.252> >On 1/19/2006 at 6:54 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > >>Was there a revised tech ref, or just one? I should also mention that the schematic does NOT appear to be the work of IBM. I suspect it was provided by the outfit IBM contracted to for the CGA displays. Which is why I asked about a possible "Made in Korea" label. Cheers, Chuck From jcwren at jcwren.com Thu Jan 19 21:04:55 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 22:04:55 -0500 Subject: CPM22 - The band Message-ID: <43D05357.1090905@jcwren.com> I have no idea what the music genre is, but the name struck me as amusing --jc From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jan 19 21:41:18 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 22:41:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: CPM22 - The band In-Reply-To: <43D05357.1090905@jcwren.com> Message-ID: > I have no idea what the music genre is, but the name struck me as amusing There is also a Euopean band called Univaque. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jan 19 22:57:26 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 23:57:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: streaky printing? Message-ID: <200601200513.AAA06586@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> I have an HP LaserJet IIISi. It's mostly Just Worked for me (though there was one mildly spectacular incident involving a failed electrolytic a while back). But recently (the last month or so), it's been exhibiting odd streakiness. Given the amount of collected wisdom here regarding such things, I thought it would be a reasonable place to ask to see if anyone can tip me off what's up with it and how I might be able to fix it. Specifically.... After leaving the printer off for a long period (a weekend, say), upon turning it on and printing, the first page is fine. The second page exhibits a few grey vertical streaks, worse towards the bottom of the page - not clean vertical lines; it looks as though toner is getting into the paper path where it shouldn't, and rubbing off on the page before it hits the fuser. Printing more pages works fine, but they get worse and worse. I've never had the streaks get so dark that I can't read printing for them, but the printing definitely becomes black-on-grey instead of black-on-white. Letting the printer sit will improve matters somewhat, but only somewhat; recently, I've even had the first page come out with some streakiness. I'm wondering if there's something like a static bleeder that's failed open, or a mechanical part that's not moving where it should, or some such. I can do a greyscale scan of a page if it would matter, if the details of exactly what kind of streaks I'm seeing can affect the answer. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 18 19:11:06 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:11:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: northstart stuff In-Reply-To: <001101c6194d$ee5aebb0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Message-ID: <20060119011106.32958.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> I"m looking for a NS Dimension if you should happen to stumble upon one :). --- Jay West wrote: > Thought I'd throw out to the list what was in my > northstar haul, in case > there's something someone is desperate for a copy > of.. > > Unopened box of DC300XL cartridges (5) (these must > have gone with some other > system) > Opened box of DC300XL cartridges, 3 in original wrap > (these must have gone > with some other system) > Box of 14 (blank?) floppy disks, 10 sector (hard) > (hopefully not really > blank) > Box of floppies (originals) for Wordstar > Professional release 5. Appears to > be two copies (both originals) all soft sector > Binder, northstar infomanager - manual but no > diskettes :\ > Binder, northstar infomanager II - manual but no > diskettes :\ > Manual - north star application software ASP > utilites package Users manual > Manual - north star infomanager data management > system > Manual - XL-Z80 software development system for the > northstar micro disk > system > Manual - The north star disk operating system v2 rel > 3 > Release notes - release 4 system software changes > north star computers 1978 > Release notes - release 3 north star version 6 basic > Manual - North star basic version 6 > Manual - north star system software manual addendum > rev. 2.1 > Manual - north star infomanager tutorial > Manual - north star horizon computer system (double > density) > Manual - north star z80a processo board, zpb-a > manual > Schematic - cromemco 16k memory board > Manual - zilog Z80-cpu Z80A-cpu technical manual > Manual - north star system software manual > Manual - north star 16k ram board > Release notes - XL-8080/XL-Z80 rel 5 software change > description > Manual - cromemco 16k memory board technical manual > Manual - north star horizon computer system > Manual - north star z80a processor board zpb-a > Manual - Cromemco Z80 monitor instruction manual > Manual - Hazeltine 1420 reference manual > Product Data Sheet - Western Union model 32 telex > KSR and ASR sets (NICE!) > Manual - Cromemco ZPU assembly > Schematic - Cromemco ZPU > Manual - Cromemco TU-ART digital interface > Scan/photocopies - Various Cromemco boards... trying > to lift artwork maybe? > Manual - Cromemco 16kz ram instruction manual > Manual - Cromemco 16kz ram card technical manual > (two copies) > > One QUME QVT102 terminal > Two Hazeltine 1420 terminals > Three northstar horizon computers (two with wood > trim, one with metal trim) > An external dual floppy drive for one of the three > horizons > > So, in all this mess, it sounds like there is no OS > disks. Hopefully, there > are some Northstar fans around than can help :) > > Regards, > > Jay West > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 18 19:36:01 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 17:36:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC APC III In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060119013601.58686.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> I have no clue what this is in response to, but I have an NEC APC III with the SLE card, 8087, color monitor, hard drive, docs, software etc. Also replete with several non-working keys. Not for sale, just thought someone might be looking for sw or sumting. --- dcosentino at schange.com wrote: > Hi Peter, > > I'm not sure if you'll get this or not, but I used > to work for NEC (until > 6mos ago) for 19 years. I was part of the first US > assembly team that > re-assembled APC III and APC IV computers. That was > back in 1986. Because > of the tariffs imposed on Japan, we received > computers that were > previously assembled and tested in Japan, then > disassembled and sent to > the US for re-assembly. > > "Nothing's better to fix than my 8086!" > > Don Cosentino > SeaChange International > 978-889-3418 > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From terry at terryking.us Thu Jan 19 14:23:20 2006 From: terry at terryking.us (Terry King) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 21:23:20 +0100 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 29, Issue 43 In-Reply-To: <200601191801.k0JI1lpv097810@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20060119212000.02bf20b8@mail.terryking.us> At 12:01 PM 1/19/2006 -0600, you wrote: >Subject: deformatting floppies > > >I would have thought it best to take a magnet to a hd >disk before popping in a 720k drive to be formatted, >but it seems to not have any (or much) effect. Even >using a chunky rare earth magnet! Can someone explain? NOT a good idea: using a PERMANENT magnet. Could leave permanent magnetism on the HEADS. I have been successful using a "bulk tape eraser" from Radio Shack.. The kind useable on tape cassettes would be OK.. Move the disk around a few times in contact with the eraser, then turn at right angles and SLOWLY draw it away. Think slowly decreasing sine wave. This should demagnetize the disk well, and MOST disks that give "Bad Media or Track Zero" can be formatted. Regards, Terry King ...On The Mediterranean in Carthage, Tunisia terry at terryking.us From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 19 21:58:33 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 19:58:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: CPM22 - The band Message-ID: <20060120035833.65951.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> the genre - undoubtably techno. But regardless you all are way weird LOL LOL. --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > I have no idea what the music genre is, but the name struck me as amusing > > There is also a Euopean band called Univaque. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Jan 20 01:46:13 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 08:46:13 +0100 Subject: RK07 questions Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF262E@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Wow, thanks Tony! I had not even had the time to pull the RK07 diagrams from the stack! This gives me a jump start, and I hope to get to it this weekend. I'll let you know ... thanks, - Henk. Tone wrote: > OK, I've dug out my prints... > [ snip ] > -tony This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Jan 20 01:50:15 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 07:50:15 GMT Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: <200601200513.AAA06586@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200601200513.AAA06586@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <7c1714ec4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <200601200513.AAA06586 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> der Mouse wrote: > Letting the printer sit will improve matters somewhat, but only > somewhat; recently, I've even had the first page come out with some > streakiness. I'd guess it could be the erase lamps for the photoconductor drum. If they're not working properly (or firing then going out) then you might end up with this fault. I'd defeat the interlocks and cartridge sensors, then cover the laser aperture and see if the erase lamp comes on before the paper starts feeding. IIRC the procedure is in the service manual. Failing that, it could be a dirty transfer wire, or maybe a dirty (or worn) drum cleaning wiper. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... VCR's are a way to defeat time..... From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jan 20 09:44:33 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:44:33 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 29, Issue 43 In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20060119212000.02bf20b8@mail.terryking.us> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20060119212000.02bf20b8@mail.terryking.us> Message-ID: <200601201044.33427.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 19 January 2006 15:23, Terry King wrote: > At 12:01 PM 1/19/2006 -0600, you wrote: > >Subject: deformatting floppies > > > > > >I would have thought it best to take a magnet to a hd > >disk before popping in a 720k drive to be formatted, > >but it seems to not have any (or much) effect. Even > >using a chunky rare earth magnet! Can someone explain? > One should probably point out that trying to format HD 3.5" media (aka 1.44MB or 2.0MB) in a 720kB drive won't work reliably, no matter how well you degauss the media. The problem lies in the coercivity of the media (and has been discussed on this list several times in the past couple years I've been here). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 20 10:31:55 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 11:31:55 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 29, Issue 43 In-Reply-To: <200601201044.33427.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20060119212000.02bf20b8@mail.terryking.us> <200601201044.33427.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <43D1107B.6060700@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 19 January 2006 15:23, Terry King wrote: > >>At 12:01 PM 1/19/2006 -0600, you wrote: >> >>>Subject: deformatting floppies >>> >>> >>>I would have thought it best to take a magnet to a hd >>>disk before popping in a 720k drive to be formatted, >>>but it seems to not have any (or much) effect. Even >>>using a chunky rare earth magnet! Can someone explain? >> > > > One should probably point out that trying to format HD 3.5" media (aka > 1.44MB or 2.0MB) in a 720kB drive won't work reliably, no matter how > well you degauss the media. The problem lies in the coercivity of the > media (and has been discussed on this list several times in the past > couple years I've been here). Although one thing I've found with many years experience with PS/2's is that 1.44MB drives in PS/2's reliably can treat 720kB floppies as 1.44MB floppies without any trouble whatsoever. I mean, without covering the hole or anything like that. Peace... Sridhar From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jan 20 11:56:36 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 09:56:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: streaky printing? Message-ID: <200601201756.JAA06579@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Philip Pemberton" > >In message <200601200513.AAA06586 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > der Mouse wrote: > >> Letting the printer sit will improve matters somewhat, but only >> somewhat; recently, I've even had the first page come out with some >> streakiness. > >I'd guess it could be the erase lamps for the photoconductor drum. If they're >not working properly (or firing then going out) then you might end up with >this fault. I'd defeat the interlocks and cartridge sensors, then cover the >laser aperture and see if the erase lamp comes on before the paper starts >feeding. IIRC the procedure is in the service manual. > >Failing that, it could be a dirty transfer wire, or maybe a dirty (or worn) >drum cleaning wiper. > Hi I had a similar problem that was buildup of toner on the drum. It would not completely erase. I tried just about everything and then finally changed the tone/drum unit. This fixed it. It seems that the drums get old just sitting. Like his, it would print the first sheet OK and then get worse as I printed more. I'd suspect that one could bake the drum and it would work better again. My guess is that it is moisture getting into the drum surface. The 3si uses the organic drum. Still, he should do a general cleanup of things. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 20 12:19:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:19:33 -0800 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 29, Issue 43 In-Reply-To: <43D1107B.6060700@gmail.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20060119212000.02bf20b8@mail.terryking.us> <200601201044.33427.pat@computer-refuge.org> <43D1107B.6060700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200601201019330510.0FBFF83D@10.0.0.252> On 1/20/2006 at 11:31 AM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Although one thing I've found with many years experience with PS/2's is >that 1.44MB drives in PS/2's reliably can treat 720kB floppies as 1.44MB >floppies without any trouble whatsoever. I mean, without covering the >hole or anything like that. Indeed. While there is ostensibly a difference in coercivity in the media, it's not as large as it is between 1.2MB and 360K media. I still might even have a diskette punch to add the hole to 720K diskettes kicking around. Should anyone be curious, I think I still have media characteristics sent to me by 3M. Since the PS/2 used drives that were "blind" to the added hole, swapping DS2D media for DSHD was very common. We still see this a lot from customers with machine tools and lab equipment requiring 720K media--since they're using 720K drives without the media sensor, they routinely use DSHD media without bad effects. When we read the disks, we either use a 720K drive or just cover over the hole temporarily. Cheers, Chuck From jcwren at jcwren.com Fri Jan 20 13:57:53 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:57:53 -0500 Subject: Homebuilt relay computer Message-ID: <43D140C1.50705@jcwren.com> From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Jan 20 14:03:27 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 20:03:27 -0000 Subject: RT11 manuals Message-ID: <008001c61dfc$93d34b20$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi, does anyone have, or know of an online "quick reference" manual or similar for RT11 V5? I have just got RT11 on an 11/23+, but have never used the software before, so I'm very much in the dark! Alternatively, does anyone in the UK have a paper set of RT11 manuals that they no-longer have space for? Thanks Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 20 14:27:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 12:27:19 -0800 Subject: Homebuilt relay computer In-Reply-To: <43D140C1.50705@jcwren.com> References: <43D140C1.50705@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <200601201227190565.1034F5E8@10.0.0.252> On 1/20/2006 at 2:57 PM J.C. Wren wrote: > Wonder what it'd be like if he'd used SSR's or reed relays? From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 20 14:30:13 2006 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 12:30:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: cctech list In-Reply-To: <200601201800.k0KI05IN010534@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20060120203013.84374.qmail@web50502.mail.yahoo.com> Is the moderator of cctech on vacation or has that list been merged with this one? I've tried to subscribe twice and haven't yet received a single digest. My cctalk subscription succeeded the same day (obviously). Thanks, Bill Colorado Springs, CO __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 20 14:47:10 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 12:47:10 -0800 Subject: A little OT: Google Message-ID: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> I've been reading the story about the business of Justice subpoenaing the search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't want to turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the data over in the form of punched cards? This qualifies as "electronically readable media", doesn't it? It'd probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what to do next... Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jan 20 14:55:48 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:55:48 -0600 Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43D14E54.2000507@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > This qualifies as "electronically readable media", doesn't it? It'd > probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what > to do next... Probably come to us or Sellam to read them :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 20 14:57:43 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 15:57:43 -0500 Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43D14EC7.5040300@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've been reading the story about the business of Justice subpoenaing the > search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't want to > turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the data > over in the form of punched cards? > > This qualifies as "electronically readable media", doesn't it? It'd > probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what > to do next... Naah. Paper tape is where it's at. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 20 15:08:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:08:56 -0800 Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <43D14EC7.5040300@gmail.com> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <43D14EC7.5040300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200601201308560075.105B0DE6@10.0.0.252> On 1/20/2006 at 3:57 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Naah. Paper tape is where it's at. Make that "fanfold paper tape"! From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 20 15:41:13 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 15:41:13 -0600 Subject: HP 88780 tape loading questions Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060120145354.04675360@mail> I tried the Overland Data 5622 I bought; it seems to have big troubles. On power-up, "Alert" blinks and it won't load - none of the buttons work. I've temporarily given up on the M4 9914 and exploring the HP 88780. It loads a tape almost always. It catches on the takeup reel, whips into high-speed mode, then Test 0 passes. I've run a few of the most interesting interactive test sequences. NVRAM, timer, DAC, ADC, tach, motor loop, tension limit and sensors, speed encoder, tape sensors, BOT/EOT sensors all OK. Test 1 with a scratch tape fails within test 165 "load tape", followed by "ERR 60". Bitsaver's 7980 manual on page 5-119 (PDF pg. 186) says error 60 is "tracks with gain too low and too high during autocal." Does this mean I need to clear the NVRAM and run the "test 99" calibration? I haven't changed or recorded the NVRAM values yet. Should I bother? Anyone have experience with http://www.comco-inc.com/ ? They're only a few hours away. - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 20 15:41:51 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:41:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 20, 2006 12:47:10 PM Message-ID: <200601202141.k0KLfp68030675@onyx.spiritone.com> > I've been reading the story about the business of Justice subpoenaing the > search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't want to > turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the data > over in the form of punched cards? > > This qualifies as "electronically readable media", doesn't it? It'd > probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what > to do next... Reminds me of the smell in a certain building in Washington DC... Zane From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Jan 20 15:48:02 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 21:48:02 +0000 Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <43D14EC7.5040300@gmail.com> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <43D14EC7.5040300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <43D15A92.1020706@gjcp.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I've been reading the story about the business of Justice subpoenaing the >> search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't >> want to >> turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the data >> over in the form of punched cards? >> >> This qualifies as "electronically readable media", doesn't it? It'd >> probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what >> to do next... > > > Naah. Paper tape is where it's at. > > Peace... Sridhar Nope - 9-track 732bpi tape. Gordon. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 20 15:49:10 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:49:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <43D14EC7.5040300@gmail.com> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <43D14EC7.5040300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060120134552.I82017@shell.lmi.net> > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I've been reading the story about the business of Justice subpoenaing the > > search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't want to > > turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the data > > over in the form of punched cards? > > This qualifies as "electronically readable media", doesn't it? It'd > > probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what > > to do next... On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Naah. Paper tape is where it's at. A judge might consider that to not be making a good faith effort to comply. Therefore, in the interests of "cooperating", it should be on magnetic disk. But not necessarily specifying the disk size, nor format. 3.25" GCR ? From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 20 15:49:24 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:49:24 -0700 Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 Jan 2006 15:57:43 -0500. <43D14EC7.5040300@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <43D14EC7.5040300 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I've been reading the story about the business of Justice subpoenaing the > > search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't want to > > turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the data > > over in the form of punched cards? > > > > This qualifies as "electronically readable media", doesn't it? It'd > > probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what > > to do next... > > Naah. Paper tape is where it's at. Even plain paper is technically electronicablly readable with OCR software :-). Imagine getting reams and reams of paper with gigantic grids of hex digits like a massic dump listing :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 20 15:54:32 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:54:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060120135134.Q82017@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've been reading the story about the business of Justice subpoenaing the > search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't want to > turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the data > over in the form of punched cards? Not just Google. >From an FBI email obtained through FOIA: "The inability of FBI investigators to use this seemingly effective tool has had a direct and clearly adverse impact on our terrorism cases. While radical militant librarians kick us around, true terrorists benefit from OIPR's failure to let us use the tools given to us." ALA's (American Library Association)'s Office of Intellectual Freedom is selling "Radical Militant Librarian" buttons for $2.00 with proceeds supporting the OIF's work. http://www.ala.org/ala/oif/basics/basicrelatedlinks/radicalbutton.htm From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 20 15:55:50 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:55:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060120135518.Y82017@shell.lmi.net> > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > I've been reading the story about the business of Justice subpoenaing the > > > search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't want to > > > turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the data > > > over in the form of punched cards? > > > > > > This qualifies as "electronically readable media", doesn't it? It'd > > > probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what > > > to do next... > > > > Naah. Paper tape is where it's at. > On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, Richard wrote: > Even plain paper is technically electronicablly readable with OCR > software :-). > > Imagine getting reams and reams of paper with gigantic grids of hex > digits like a massic dump listing :-) Cauzin Softstrip! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 20 16:00:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:00:11 -0800 Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <20060120134552.I82017@shell.lmi.net> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <43D14EC7.5040300@gmail.com> <20060120134552.I82017@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200601201400110727.1089FC2A@10.0.0.252> On 1/20/2006 at 1:49 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >3.25" GCR ? How about one of those old OSI async formats? Or 2" SuperSport disks? Or 90KB O1 SSSD 5.25"? The old Durango 5.25' 100 tpi GCRs would make for some nice headscratching... Remember that this is a fishing expedition, so that Google can't be charged with "hindering prosecution". AFAIK, there's no warrant involved. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 20 16:09:02 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:09:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <200601201400110727.1089FC2A@10.0.0.252> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <43D14EC7.5040300@gmail.com> <20060120134552.I82017@shell.lmi.net> <200601201400110727.1089FC2A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060120140315.K82017@shell.lmi.net> > >3.25" GCR ? On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > How about one of those old OSI async formats? Excellent > Or 2" SuperSport disks? Or good > 90KB O1 SSSD 5.25"? WAY too easy. > The old Durango 5.25' 100 tpi GCRs would make for some > nice headscratching... . . . , Sirius/Victor 9000? Tandy M100 PDD#1? Micropolis OS for TRS-80 M1 on 100 TPI, but changed to GCR? Tarbell? Kansas City Standard? TRS80 M1 cassette? (close to a Write Only Medium) If they insist on "an IBM PC format", . . . 5150 cassette! > Remember that this is a fishing expedition, so that Google can't be charged > with "hindering prosecution". AFAIK, there's no warrant involved. If Google refuses to "cooperate", how much can DOJ do? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 20 16:10:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:10:26 -0800 Subject: HP 88780 tape loading questions In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060120145354.04675360@mail> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060120145354.04675360@mail> Message-ID: <200601201410260862.10935F09@10.0.0.252> On 1/20/2006 at 3:41 PM John Foust wrote: >I tried the Overland Data 5622 I bought; it seems to have big troubles. >On power-up, "Alert" blinks and it won't load - none of the buttons work. In my experience, the Overland drives are poorly made with rather fragile plastic parts. Take a look at the inside of the plastic front panel with the buttons. Each button has a tiny molded plastic pin that contacts the PCB switch. Often, these get broken off. Also, most Overland drives have a "door open" optical sensor and a door lock solenoid. If the sensor gets unplugged or otherwise messed up (usually by a plastic interrupter fin molded into the door being broken off), you won't get anywhere. I like drives like the Fuji 24444--no nonsense about auto-threading and built like a battleship. Cheers, Chuck From cpg at aladdin.de Fri Jan 20 16:10:48 2006 From: cpg at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler) Date: 20 Jan 2006 23:10:48 +0100 Subject: CGA 160x100 mode? (was: Preventing CGA revisionist history) In-Reply-To: <87acdsymz9.fsf@langhals.groessler.org.> References: <87acdsymz9.fsf@langhals.groessler.org.> Message-ID: <87r772a6tz.fsf@langhals.groessler.org.> Original Message from Jim Leonard > > Christian Groessler wrote: > > I cannot recall any program using this mode (at least I > didn't notice > > at the time). > > > > Does it really exist? > > Which one? CGA 160x100? Sure: > > http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/round-42/screenshots > > More interestingly, the same mode was used WITHOUT the half-block > trick for some truly creative graphics: > > http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/icon-the-quest-for-the-ring/ > screenshots/gameShotId,702/ Cool. Thanks for the pointer. regards, chris From cpg at aladdin.de Fri Jan 20 16:16:30 2006 From: cpg at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler) Date: 20 Jan 2006 23:16:30 +0100 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <87vewg5h94.fsf@tigerman.ealaddin.org> References: <87vewg5h94.fsf@tigerman.ealaddin.org> Message-ID: <87oe26a6kh.fsf@langhals.groessler.org.> Original Message from Jim Leonard > > I wrote a CGA library last year in pascal+asm and will be putting it > online with screenshots and photos in an effort to help emulator > authors; I'll post the URL here when I'm finished. I'm curious. regards, chris From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 20 16:18:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:18:31 -0800 Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <20060120140315.K82017@shell.lmi.net> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <43D14EC7.5040300@gmail.com> <20060120134552.I82017@shell.lmi.net> <200601201400110727.1089FC2A@10.0.0.252> <20060120140315.K82017@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200601201418310278.109AC349@10.0.0.252> On 1/20/2006 at 2:09 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >If Google refuses to "cooperate", how much can DOJ do? If they can find a judge who's inclined to sympathize, probably a contept citation could be issued with a fine. Big deal. --Chuck From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Jan 20 16:27:24 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:27:24 -0500 Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <43D14EC7.5040300@gmail.com> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060120165222.03b61268@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Sridhar Ayengar may have mentioned these words: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >>... why not turn the data over in the form of punched cards? >Naah. Paper tape is where it's at. Why not some of each? Paper tape, punched cards, Barcode (I'm thinking TandyCode for the Tandy Model 10x/200), 16-hard-sector 5.25", RX-01, some Apple media, Commie, 3" Amdek, 2" Zenith MiniSport, etc... ;-) So what if it's a slightly smaller shipment... keep 'em jumpin'! ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger P.S. Oh, and ROT13 1/2 of each type of media, just for giggles... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 20 16:29:56 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:29:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060120165222.03b61268@mail.30below.com> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <5.1.0.14.2.20060120165222.03b61268@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20060120142934.S82017@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, Roger Merchberger wrote: > P.S. Oh, and ROT13 1/2 of each type of media, just for giggles... Would the NSA be able to decode ROT13? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 20 16:42:29 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:42:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <200601201418310278.109AC349@10.0.0.252> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <43D14EC7.5040300@gmail.com> <20060120134552.I82017@shell.lmi.net> <200601201400110727.1089FC2A@10.0.0.252> <20060120140315.K82017@shell.lmi.net> <200601201418310278.109AC349@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060120144147.D82017@shell.lmi.net> > >If Google refuses to "cooperate", how much can DOJ do? > > If they can find a judge who's inclined to sympathize, probably a contept > citation could be issued with a fine. Big deal. Could they declare them to be an "enemy combatant", and detain Google at Gitmo? From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 20 16:46:59 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:46:59 -0500 Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060120165222.03b61268@mail.30below.com> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <5.1.0.14.2.20060120165222.03b61268@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <43D16863.40105@gmail.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Sridhar Ayengar may have mentioned these words: > >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> ... why not turn the data over in the form of punched cards? > > >> Naah. Paper tape is where it's at. > > > Why not some of each? Paper tape, punched cards, Barcode (I'm thinking > TandyCode for the Tandy Model 10x/200), 16-hard-sector 5.25", RX-01, > some Apple media, Commie, 3" Amdek, 2" Zenith MiniSport, etc... ;-) > > So what if it's a slightly smaller shipment... keep 'em jumpin'! ;-) > > Laterz, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > P.S. Oh, and ROT13 1/2 of each type of media, just for giggles... How about something where you can still get media, but can no longer find drives for? Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 20 17:16:42 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 15:16:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <43D16863.40105@gmail.com> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <5.1.0.14.2.20060120165222.03b61268@mail.30below.com> <43D16863.40105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060120151113.V82017@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > How about something where you can still get media, but can no longer > find drives for? 5150 cassette (DRIVE is available, interface isn't) Are 5.25" diskettes still available enough? If so, 100tpi?, OSI? Apple ][? (Pascal?) Are "720K" diskettes still available enough? If so, Tandy PDD1? From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Jan 20 18:14:20 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 00:14:20 +0000 Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <20060120135518.Y82017@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060120135518.Y82017@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <43D17CDC.5040805@gjcp.net> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> >>>>I've been reading the story about the business of Justice subpoenaing the >>>>search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't want to >>>>turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the data >>>>over in the form of punched cards? >>>> >>>>This qualifies as "electronically readable media", doesn't it? It'd >>>>probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what >>>>to do next... Car number plates. They just need to run them past ANPR cameras. Or - miles and miles of the steel strip, with the data laser-etched onto it. That would be machine-readable. Of course it's up to them to build the machine... Gordon. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 20 18:17:51 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:17:51 -0700 Subject: "the well known plotting bugs of the original 4010" Message-ID: drops this phrase in the discussion of add-ons to the Heathkit H-19 video terminal. Just what were "the well known plotting bugs of the original 4010"? Since I have a 4010, I'm keen to know :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 20 18:30:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:30:50 -0700 Subject: HP 88780 tape loading questions In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:10:26 -0800. <200601201410260862.10935F09@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200601201410260862.10935F09 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I like drives like the Fuji 24444--no nonsense about auto-threading and > built like a battleship. I'll second that... it took me a while to negotiate the beast into my car and thence into my basement! But hey, $0.99 on ebay with local pickup. I couldn't refuse. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Jan 20 18:47:30 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 19:47:30 -0500 Subject: "the well known plotting bugs of the original 4010" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060121004730.7C243BA4848@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Richard wrote: > drops this > phrase in the discussion of add-ons to the Heathkit H-19 video > terminal. > > Just what were "the well known plotting bugs of the original 4010"? > > Since I have a 4010, I'm keen to know :-) The necessary delay between doing an erase and starting to draw again (a second or two), or the bright blink when you erase? You can only erase the entire screen? Overwrite doesn't replace a character, but actually just draws over it leaving the old character behind? Lack of scrolling ability? Funny things happen if you send graphics coordinates too fast (making the "short mode addressing" useless at high speeds?) Didn't it also use RC networks for the serial clock, and there was a pot to tweak? That was the thing that struck me as being really chintzy at the time, but there was that pot for rubbering the frequency... GIN mode? (And the other GIN mode?) And the funny characters that could come out that some minicomputer OS's just did not get along with? Of course, to you and me these are just intrinsic characteristics of a 4010, but to someone who grew up with non-storage-scope CRT's they probably could be frustrating. Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 20 18:35:41 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 00:35:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK07 questions In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF262E@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Jan 20, 6 08:46:13 am Message-ID: > > Wow, thanks Tony! > I had not even had the time to pull the RK07 diagrams from the stack! You were lucky. I happened to know where my RK07 prints were... > This gives me a jump start, and I hope to get to it this weekend. > I'll let you know ... Good luck. Feel free to ask anything abotu this drive's hardware. I find it a particularly interesting one, and spent many enjoyable hours reading that print. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 20 18:32:56 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 00:32:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CGA 160x100 mode? (was: Preventing CGA revisionist history) In-Reply-To: <43D03837.9010207@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jan 19, 6 07:09:11 pm Message-ID: > More interestingly, the same mode was used WITHOUT the half-block trick > for some truly creative graphics: You could do a similar trick (I think it's similar anyway) on the CoCo 1 and 2 in the Semigraphics modes. Each byte of video memory corresponded to 1 charaxcter cell width by 1,2,4, etc scan lines. You were _supposed_ to put bytes with the high bit set there, in which case the lower bits determined the colour and on/of state of the 2 halves of the cell. You could actually put any character there, whereupon the appropriate dots from that scan line of that character would be displayed. You could, for example, have the uppper and lower halves of the character cell coming from different characters. Pity the CoCo 3 didn't support the semigraphics modes. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 20 18:18:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 00:18:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <20060119161634.Y99406@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 19, 6 04:19:27 pm Message-ID: > > > > In addition to the BROWN v Yellow, > > > there were differences in the handling of BRIGHT BLACK. > > > (Joe Campbell borrowed a "real" CGA card from me when he > > > found out that his Corona did not give the same color as IBM.) > > On Thu, 19 Jan 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > > Surely any differences were in the monitor. Given that there are 16 > > possible colours, and 4 bits on the output DE9, it's hard to see how the > > purely-digital card could make any difference. > > What SHOULD bright black on black (08) do? >From the card, it should output R=0, B=0, G=0, I=1. It's hard to see how any CGA _card_ would do otherwise. > What foreground color? > what background color? That's somewhat meaningless. The monitor should display a dark grey if given those inputs. Oh hang on... You're thinking of the blink bit, right? There's a bit in one of the setup registers that turns the intensity bit of the background colour into a blink-control bit. I would _guess_ without looking at the card that 1000 as a forground colour is dark grey, 1000 as a background colour is eitehr dark grey (if blinking is disabled), or black with blinking forground if blinking is enabled. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 20 18:24:52 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 00:24:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43D034C6.6050105@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jan 19, 6 06:54:30 pm Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Okay, here's a grayscale tiff of the first of two pages (the second page > > I hate to trouble you again, but now there is question from the > individual I am trying to convince that the sheet you scanned was from a > "later revision" of the tech ref. Can you scan the page with the > copyright date on it? Oh for %deity's sake.... I will admit that the Techref I looked is a relatively late one in that I bought it from IBM long after it was discontinued (they still had some in stock). But I've never seen or heard of another version of the CGA monitor Chuck has posted the same information from his techref. I feel it's unlikely IBM would have changed this (why do so?). And rememebr the idea was perpetuated in the EGA card/monitor (why do this if the earlier CGA card had not also done it?). And also I've seen clone CGA monitors that had a circuit to perform the same function (often a 74138 decoder chip was used to detect clour 6). And we all know that some clones missed out anything that was not strictly necessary I feel the onus is on the original questioner to provide documentary evidence, including schematics, showing an IBM CGA monitor that did not do this. Or an example of an actual IBM-badged 5153 that does not contain this circuitry. Should one be found I'll be happy to put a note in my Techref. But until one is found I am happy to beleive that all 5153s include the brown-kludge. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 20 18:58:28 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 00:58:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <20060120151113.V82017@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 20, 6 03:16:42 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > How about something where you can still get media, but can no longer > > find drives for? > > 5150 cassette (DRIVE is available, interface isn't) Thinking of a machine that's been on my bench recently : Epson PX8 microcassette. The tapes are easy to get for dixtating machines still. > > > Are 5.25" diskettes still available enough? If so, > 100tpi?, > OSI? > Apple ][? (Pascal?) Sirius (multiple-speed, GCR)_ What about Apple Lisa 'Twiggy' disks (uyes, OK, the media is no longer made). > > Are "720K" diskettes still available enough? If so, > Tandy PDD1? Something at 67.5 tpi? How about an FM recording (i.e. single density), at HD pulse rates on a 1.44M disk. Should be techncially possible, but good luck finding a machine that has it as a supported format. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 20 20:11:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 19:11:43 -0700 Subject: "the well known plotting bugs of the original 4010" In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 Jan 2006 19:47:30 -0500. <20060121004730.7C243BA4848@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: In article <20060121004730.7C243BA4848 at mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) writes: > The necessary delay between doing an erase and starting > to draw again (a second or two), or the bright blink when you erase? > > You can only erase the entire screen? > > Overwrite doesn't replace a character, but actually just draws > over it leaving the old character behind? > > Lack of scrolling ability? I wouldn't characterize these as bugs - they are in the nature of the storage scope technology. Using that reasoning, you could say that raster graphics has the "bug" that lines are aliased. > Funny things happen if you send graphics coordinates too fast > (making the "short mode addressing" useless at high speeds?) Now this starts sounding more like a bug. What "funny things" happen? > Didn't it also use RC networks for the serial clock, and there > was a pot to tweak? That was the thing that struck me as being > really chintzy at the time, but there was that pot for rubbering > the frequency... This doesn't sound like a "plotting bug" either, just something you didn't like :-) > GIN mode? (And the other GIN mode?) And the funny characters that > could come out that some minicomputer OS's just did not get along with? Can you elaborate on this? IIRC, GIN mode is where you used the crosshairs to indicate x,y position and then pressed RETURN or something to send the position back up the serial line, right? What do you mean by "the other GIN mode"? > Of course, to you and me these are just intrinsic characteristics > of a 4010, but to someone who grew up with non-storage-scope > CRT's they probably could be frustrating. Well, this quote was taken from a page showcasing a vintage computer collection, so its not like the guy is unfamiliar with old tech. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jan 20 20:18:24 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 20:18:24 -0600 Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <20060120134552.I82017@shell.lmi.net> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <43D14EC7.5040300@gmail.com> <20060120134552.I82017@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <43D199F0.9060804@mdrconsult.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>>I've been reading the story about the business of Justice subpoenaing the >>>search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't want to >>>turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the data >>>over in the form of punched cards? >>>This qualifies as "electronically readable media", doesn't it? It'd >>>probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what >>>to do next... > > On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >>Naah. Paper tape is where it's at. > > > A judge might consider that to not be making a good faith effort to > comply. > > Therefore, in the interests of "cooperating", it should be on magnetic > disk. But not necessarily specifying the disk size, nor format. > 3.25" GCR ? I vote for a good, hearty "HELL NO!" At this point it's a request, not an order, and I hear that Google's not inclined to meet it. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 20 20:23:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:23:36 -0800 Subject: "the well known plotting bugs of the original 4010" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601201823360025.117B2087@10.0.0.252> >In article <20060121004730.7C243BA4848 at mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, > shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) writes: > >> The necessary delay between doing an erase and starting >> to draw again (a second or two), or the bright blink when you erase? >> >> You can only erase the entire screen? >> >> Overwrite doesn't replace a character, but actually just draws >> over it leaving the old character behind? >> >> Lack of scrolling ability? I'll say this--that, for the time, these had the most readable displays of any CRT technology. Did the 4010 have the "split screen" capability of being able to erase only half the screen? Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 20 20:36:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 19:36:57 -0700 Subject: "the well known plotting bugs of the original 4010" In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:23:36 -0800. <200601201823360025.117B2087@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200601201823360025.117B2087 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I'll say this--that, for the time, these had the most readable displays of > any CRT technology. Did the 4010 have the "split screen" capability of > being able to erase only half the screen? Nope. Neither does the 4014, which is basically just a 4010 with a larger display and slightly updated electronics AFAICT. I never heard of a split-screen erase on the storage scope displays, but I only ever saw the 4010 in person until I got my 4014 about a year or two ago :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 20 21:08:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 19:08:56 -0800 Subject: "the well known plotting bugs of the original 4010" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601201908560963.11A4A4A9@10.0.0.252> On 1/20/2006 at 7:36 PM Richard wrote: >I never heard of a split-screen erase on the storage scope displays, >but I only ever saw the 4010 in person until I got my 4014 about a >year or two ago :) Well, this was 30+ years ago. I'm not aware that the terminal could display anything but alphanumerics, nor that it was a Tek. I do remember that it was comparatively large (maybe 17"?) and that either the right or the left side could be erased. FWIW, I never saw another one. For a while, I had a 564 scope. IIRC either the top or bottom could be erased. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jan 20 21:43:22 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 21:43:22 -0600 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43D1ADDA.7050401@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > Oh for %deity's sake.... Believe me, I feel the same way. I'm just trying to convince a stubborn person. > I feel the onus is on the original questioner to provide documentary He has digital photos of a 5153 that isn't performing the extra conversion, which is what started this entire mess. I believe the issue is settled with the person in question, so no need to talk about it further. I provided the schematic along with your explanation (credited to you) on http://www.oldskool.org/pc/cgacal and that seems to have put the matter to rest. Regardless, I'm not going to pursue it further (someone humorously referred to me as "charging the CGA windmill" :-), although someday I would like to know *why* IBM went through the trouble. Some engineer has probably taken it to his grave. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jan 20 21:44:30 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 21:44:30 -0600 Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <20060120151113.V82017@shell.lmi.net> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <5.1.0.14.2.20060120165222.03b61268@mail.30below.com> <43D16863.40105@gmail.com> <20060120151113.V82017@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <43D1AE1E.8000902@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > 5150 cassette (DRIVE is available, interface isn't) Nah, comes on ebay once a week. I second the motion of Cauzin Softstrip! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 20 21:47:38 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 22:47:38 -0500 Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <43D1AE1E.8000902@oldskool.org> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <5.1.0.14.2.20060120165222.03b61268@mail.30below.com> <43D16863.40105@gmail.com> <20060120151113.V82017@shell.lmi.net> <43D1AE1E.8000902@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43D1AEDA.4010505@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > >> 5150 cassette (DRIVE is available, interface isn't) > > > Nah, comes on ebay once a week. As if it would matter. How long would it take to transfer several hundred gigabytes of data off of 5150 cassettes? 8-) Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 20 21:57:30 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 19:57:30 -0800 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43D1ADDA.7050401@oldskool.org> References: <43D1ADDA.7050401@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200601201957300967.11D11B29@10.0.0.252> On 1/20/2006 at 9:43 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >Tony Duell wrote: >> Oh for %deity's sake.... > >Believe me, I feel the same way. I'm just trying to convince a stubborn >person. You know, if I turn the red gain down on a 5153, that "brown" does indeed come out dark yellow.... Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 20 22:08:49 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 21:08:49 -0700 Subject: ebay strategies (was: A little OT: Google) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 Jan 2006 21:44:30 -0600. <43D1AE1E.8000902@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In article <43D1AE1E.8000902 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard writes: > Fred Cisin wrote: > > 5150 cassette (DRIVE is available, interface isn't) > > Nah, comes on ebay once a week. Speaking of ebay, what strategies do you use to mine the constant churn of new items for things you want? I have a variety of searches that I've refined to email me when new items arrive, looking for specific manufacturers or products. I also have a general category search limited by distance to show me crufty old computer parts that are within driving distance :-). Any other tricks that y'all use to find stuff? Serendipitous browsing? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jan 20 22:16:59 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 22:16:59 -0600 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <200601201957300967.11D11B29@10.0.0.252> References: <43D1ADDA.7050401@oldskool.org> <200601201957300967.11D11B29@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43D1B5BB.9070800@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > You know, if I turn the red gain down on a 5153, that "brown" does indeed > come out dark yellow.... Yes, but that's not a user-accessible control, so I couldn't use that to prove my point ("it's never been opened to be messed with", etc.). I'm almost positive the 5153 photos that were used as "evidence" were pictures of, let's face it, a slowly-failing 5153 or similar. I had to ask for the schematic to prove my point. Some people just believe what they want to believe. It was like a religious argument at times. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jan 20 22:28:04 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 23:28:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: ebay strategies (was: A little OT: Google) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Speaking of ebay, what strategies do you use to mine the constant > churn of new items for things you want? This information is classified. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jan 20 23:06:10 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 00:06:10 -0500 Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <43D1AEDA.4010505@gmail.com> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <43D1AE1E.8000902@oldskool.org> <43D1AEDA.4010505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200601210006.10564.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 20 January 2006 22:47, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > > Fred Cisin wrote: > >> 5150 cassette (DRIVE is available, interface isn't) > > > > Nah, comes on ebay once a week. > > As if it would matter. How long would it take to transfer several > hundred gigabytes of data off of 5150 cassettes? 8-) It depends on how many 5150s and tape decks you have... ("RAIT"). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sat Jan 21 03:32:53 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 10:32:53 +0100 Subject: cctech list Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22CD@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi William, I think the moderator (Jay) *wished* he had a vacation. He posted the reason why he can not pay much attention to cctech (at this moment) last week. IIRC, his mother is in the hospital. There are more people that moderate the postings to cctech, but if you successfully subscribed to cctalk, there is no need to subscribe to cctech ... unless you want to receive on-topic messages twice! cctech = tech only, cctalk = cctech + off-topic postings. welcome to the list, - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens William Blair Verzonden: vr 20-01-2006 21:30 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: cctech list Is the moderator of cctech on vacation or has that list been merged with this one? I've tried to subscribe twice and haven't yet received a single digest. My cctalk subscription succeeded the same day (obviously). Thanks, Bill Colorado Springs, CO This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From ama at ugr.es Sat Jan 21 03:59:41 2006 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 10:59:41 +0100 Subject: wanted Sun lunchboxes in Spain Message-ID: <20060121095941.GC726@darwin.ugr.es> Hello, I am interested in getting Sun lunchbox systems (LX, Classic, IPC, IPX) in Spain. Is there somebody around who has some of them or knows where/how to get them? Thank you, ?ngel P.S.: Other Sun systems might interest me as well (I actually take anything from Sun Microsystems which I find for free or reaally cheap). -- Angel Martin Alganza Tel +34 958 248 926 Departamento de Genetica Fax +34 958 244 073 Universidad de Granada mailto:ama at ugr.es C/ Fuentenueva s/n http://www.ugr.es/~ama E-18071 Granada, Spain JabberID alganza at jabber.org ------------------------------------------------------ /~\ The ASCII PGP Public key: \ / Ribbon Campaign www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key X Against HTML Email 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 / \ and MS attachments 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Jan 21 04:14:30 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 10:14:30 +0000 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43D1ADDA.7050401@oldskool.org> References: <43D1ADDA.7050401@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43D20986.8010401@gjcp.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Oh for %deity's sake.... > > > Believe me, I feel the same way. I'm just trying to convince a stubborn > person. > >> I feel the onus is on the original questioner to provide documentary > > > He has digital photos of a 5153 that isn't performing the extra > conversion, which is what started this entire mess. Dry joint at the base of Q206, obviously. Gordon. From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Jan 21 00:38:10 2006 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 01:38:10 -0500 Subject: Atari Portfolio or HP200LX Message-ID: I'm looking for an Atari portfolio or hp200lx ! Preferably around $20, though I know that's not really all that reasonable, it's my available funds .... Any pointers or offers would be nice :) From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Jan 21 10:00:38 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 10:00:38 -0600 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43D20986.8010401@gjcp.net> References: <43D1ADDA.7050401@oldskool.org> <43D20986.8010401@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43D25AA6.3040207@brutman.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Dry joint at the base of Q206, obviously. > > Gordon. > > Now wouldn't that be something ... Besides telling the guy he's a stubborn moron and he is wrong, also tell him what the problem is and what the correct repair is! From news at computercollector.com Sat Jan 21 10:10:08 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 11:10:08 -0500 Subject: Atari Portfolio or HP200LX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c61ea5$26a9fef0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> You should check on the HPLX mailing list. http://fred.eberl.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hplx -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gary Sparkes Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 1:38 AM To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Atari Portfolio or HP200LX I'm looking for an Atari portfolio or hp200lx ! Preferably around $20, though I know that's not really all that reasonable, it's my available funds .... Any pointers or offers would be nice :) From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat Jan 21 10:17:16 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 11:17:16 -0500 Subject: Homebuilt relay computer In-Reply-To: <43D140C1.50705@jcwren.com> References: <43D140C1.50705@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <200601211117.16827.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 20 January 2006 02:57 pm, J.C. Wren wrote: > What's missing there is sound files, for when the thing is operating... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat Jan 21 10:19:30 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 11:19:30 -0500 Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <200601202141.k0KLfp68030675@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200601202141.k0KLfp68030675@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200601211119.30652.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 20 January 2006 04:41 pm, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I've been reading the story about the business of Justice subpoenaing the > > search records from Google for a week last summer. Google doesn't want > > to turn them over, but should they lose their appeal, why not turn the > > data over in the form of punched cards? > > > > This qualifies as "electronically readable media", doesn't it? It'd > > probably be several truckloads and leave those guys at DOJ wondering what > > to do next... > > Reminds me of the smell in a certain building in Washington DC... > > Zane At the zoo? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sat Jan 21 10:02:11 2006 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 03:02:11 +1100 Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: <200601200513.AAA06586@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200601200513.AAA06586@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1E50B728-FBA3-4B4D-B898-79F05905747D@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 20/01/2006, at 3:57 PM, der Mouse wrote: > I have an HP LaserJet IIISi. It's mostly Just Worked for me (though > there was one mildly spectacular incident involving a failed > electrolytic a while back). But recently (the last month or so), it's > been exhibiting odd streakiness. Given the amount of collected wisdom > here regarding such things, I thought it would be a reasonable > place to > ask to see if anyone can tip me off what's up with it and how I might > be able to fix it. > > Specifically.... > > After leaving the printer off for a long period (a weekend, say), upon > turning it on and printing, the first page is fine. The second page > exhibits a few grey vertical streaks, worse towards the bottom of the > page - not clean vertical lines; it looks as though toner is getting > into the paper path where it shouldn't, and rubbing off on the page > before it hits the fuser. Printing more pages works fine, but they > get > worse and worse. I've never had the streaks get so dark that I can't > read printing for them, but the printing definitely becomes > black-on-grey instead of black-on-white. > > Letting the printer sit will improve matters somewhat, but only > somewhat; recently, I've even had the first page come out with some > streakiness. I had exactly the same problems with my 5M and after doing almost everything I could think of I finally read the manual (please don't quote me here :-). Turned out this symptom is most commonly fixed by replacing the toner cartridge which (perhaps not so surprisingly) fixed the problem. Completely OT comment. Currently in Nashua NH for work. I survived the trip but it appears the hard drive in my work laptop didn't. Everyone laughs at me for carrying two laptops (work and mine) but the Powerbook is currently being used to copy all my work data and once that's finished it's off to a computer shop for a portable USB drive case, new hard drive and a day spent doing backup/restore rather than sightseeing :-( Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From dj.taylor at starpower.net Sat Jan 21 12:35:42 2006 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 13:35:42 -0500 Subject: pertec tape drive interface card for pdp-11/03? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20060121133412.01b10278@pop.starpower.net> At 03:25 PM 1/17/2006, you wrote: > > > > Does such a thing exist? The peripherals handbook I got with my 11/03 > > doesn't list such a thing, but I can imagine that there are Q-bus tape > > drive controllers that talk to a pertec interface that would work. > >DEC probably didn't make one at that time. although IIRC the TSV05 was a >Pertec controller that went with the TS05 magtape (a rebadged Cipher 880) > >I am sure there were also third party cards from the likes of Emulex and >Dilog. I can't see why any of them would have problems in an 11/03 >machine (modulo the normal problems with odd signals on the top 4 address >lines in some early backplanes). > >-tony I was able to get an Emulex TC02 to work on a micropdp11, connected to a Qualstar drive. (under rt11) Doug From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jan 21 13:49:23 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 11:49:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <200601210006.10564.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <43D1AE1E.8000902@oldskool.org> <43D1AEDA.4010505@gmail.com> <200601210006.10564.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20060121114643.V15897@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 21 Jan 2006, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > It depends on how many 5150s and tape decks you have... ("RAIT"). With people on eBay for some reason thinking that they are valuable, it's more of a "RAT" than a "RAIT". Some of the sentiments expressed have almost certainly moved the list up several steps in the NSA monitoring priority. From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Jan 21 14:24:50 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 14:24:50 -0600 Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <20060121114643.V15897@shell.lmi.net> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <43D1AE1E.8000902@oldskool.org> <43D1AEDA.4010505@gmail.com> <200601210006.10564.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20060121114643.V15897@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <43D29892.3010000@mdrconsult.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 21 Jan 2006, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >>It depends on how many 5150s and tape decks you have... ("RAIT"). > > > With people on eBay for some reason thinking that they are valuable, > it's more of a "RAT" than a "RAIT". > > > > Some of the sentiments expressed have almost certainly moved the list up > several steps in the NSA monitoring priority. Umm, Fred? Do you think the fact that Michael hasn't posted recently has lowered our rating at all? 8-) In all seriousness, given the various skillsets, histories, and computing capacity of ClassicCmp's members, I really doubt that this list ever goes off their radar. Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 21 13:39:24 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 19:39:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43D1ADDA.7050401@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jan 20, 6 09:43:22 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Oh for %deity's sake.... > > Believe me, I feel the same way. I'm just trying to convince a stubborn > person. > > > I feel the onus is on the original questioner to provide documentary > > He has digital photos of a 5153 that isn't performing the extra > conversion, which is what started this entire mess. Oh come on. Photogrpahs are notoriously bad at preserving colours. And although I don't have a digital camera, I've seen reference to white balance adjustments on most (if not all) of them. Get that wrong and brown could easily look yellow. Heck, I am sure a bit of fiddling with GIMP or Photoshop or whatever could do much the same thing. Or of course his 5153 could have been tweaked (there are drive and cutoff adjustments for the 3 guns, a bit less red gain (or a bit more green) could make brown look like dark yellow (effectively undoing the effects of that circuit). Or there could be a fault in that particular monitor (maybe the transistor has failed or something. > Regardless, I'm not going to pursue it further (someone humorously > referred to me as "charging the CGA windmill" :-), although someday I > would like to know *why* IBM went through the trouble. Some engineer > has probably taken it to his grave. Every year I give a little talk to HPCC (Handheld and Portable Computer Club about the internals of one or more HP calculators/computers). Often, after explaining some clever feature [1] I am asked 'why did HP do this'. To which my reply is always the same : ' I can only tell you what's inside the machine, not why it was put there. The former is deducable by taking the thing apart and probing around. The latter needs access to the designers'. [1] An example is the beeper circuit on the 9830. It's a single frequency, single duration beep. You give the circuit a pulse from the I/O interface card, it gives a beep. The 'extra' feature is a few extra components to give an amplitude envelope to tbe output sound, just to make it sound a bit nicer. Well, it _is_ an HP :-). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 21 13:42:03 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 19:42:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <43D1AE1E.8000902@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jan 20, 6 09:44:30 pm Message-ID: > > Fred Cisin wrote: > > 5150 cassette (DRIVE is available, interface isn't) > > Nah, comes on ebay once a week. Hang on, the format of the 5150 cassette recording is given in the TechRef. Now I've not tried this, and I've not got the hardware to do it, but surely you could play the tape on a normal audio recorder into a modern PC soundcard and analyse the signals in software. A modern PC should be easily fast enough > > I second the motion of Cauzin Softstrip! Would a normal flatbed scanner have enough resolution to scan a page of softstrips and then decode the image in software again? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 21 13:45:40 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 19:45:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <43D1B5BB.9070800@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jan 20, 6 10:16:59 pm Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > You know, if I turn the red gain down on a 5153, that "brown" does indeed > > come out dark yellow.... > > Yes, but that's not a user-accessible control, so I couldn't use that to That depends on who the user is. I have certainly been inside my 5153. > prove my point ("it's never been opened to be messed with", etc.). AFAIK there was no 'seal' on the 5153. It's hard to know if it's been taken apart, therefore.. My first question is 'do all the other colours look _exactly_ right?'. Obviously fidling with the drive controls would affect more than just the brown clour. > > I'm almost positive the 5153 photos that were used as "evidence" were > pictures of, let's face it, a slowly-failing 5153 or similar. I had to Why 'slowly failing'? It's possible that one of the components in the brown-kludge circuit has 'run down the curtain and joined the choir invisible'... It's possible the fault, if there is one, just suddenly appeared. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 21 15:14:35 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 21:14:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: <1E50B728-FBA3-4B4D-B898-79F05905747D@kerberos.davies.net.au> from "Huw Davies" at Jan 22, 6 03:02:11 am Message-ID: > I had exactly the same problems with my 5M and after doing almost > everything I could think of I finally read the manual (please don't > quote me here :-). Turned out this symptom is most commonly fixed by > replacing the toner cartridge which (perhaps not so surprisingly) > fixed the problem. It would be interesting to know what went wrong with the old cartridge. Is it that the drum is damaged in some way and doesn't discharge properly usder the erasing lamps? Or is it that the wiper blade doesn't clean the surface of the drum properly? Or what? -tony From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sat Jan 21 16:52:01 2006 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 09:52:01 +1100 Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2645C3F3-937F-469B-82D7-AACFBEA72DF5@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 22/01/2006, at 8:14 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > It would be interesting to know what went wrong with the old > cartridge. > Is it that the drum is damaged in some way and doesn't discharge > properly usder the erasing lamps? Or is it that the wiper blade > doesn't > clean the surface of the drum properly? Or what? Well I still have the old drum at home (keep meaning to take it to work for recycling and keep forgetting). If you want I can don gloves and a mask and attempt to open it to see what looks broken inside... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jan 21 17:56:51 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 18:56:51 -0500 Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <43D29892.3010000@mdrconsult.com> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <43D1AE1E.8000902@oldskool.org> <43D1AEDA.4010505@gmail.com> <200601210006.10564.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20060121114643.V15897@shell.lmi.net> <43D29892.3010000@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <43D2CA43.1080900@gmail.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Sat, 21 Jan 2006, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> >>> It depends on how many 5150s and tape decks you have... ("RAIT"). >> >> >> >> With people on eBay for some reason thinking that they are valuable, >> it's more of a "RAT" than a "RAIT". >> >> >> >> Some of the sentiments expressed have almost certainly moved the list up >> several steps in the NSA monitoring priority. > > > Umm, Fred? > > Do you think the fact that Michael hasn't posted recently has lowered > our rating at all? 8-) > > In all seriousness, given the various skillsets, histories, and > computing capacity of ClassicCmp's members, I really doubt that this > list ever goes off their radar. There are probably a few members of this list that would be on their radar without the list's help. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 21 17:57:28 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 23:57:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: <2645C3F3-937F-469B-82D7-AACFBEA72DF5@kerberos.davies.net.au> from "Huw Davies" at Jan 22, 6 09:52:01 am Message-ID: > > It would be interesting to know what went wrong with the old > > cartridge. > > Is it that the drum is damaged in some way and doesn't discharge > > properly usder the erasing lamps? Or is it that the wiper blade > > doesn't > > clean the surface of the drum properly? Or what? > > Well I still have the old drum at home (keep meaning to take it to > work for recycling and keep forgetting). If you want I can don gloves > and a mask and attempt to open it to see what looks broken inside... Is toner really that harmfuL? Anyway, I am not sure you'd see nnything visibly wrong, particularly if it's a change in the optoelectrical properties of the drum. But I guess you would see a worn wiper. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 21 18:02:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 17:02:50 -0700 Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 22 Jan 2006 09:52:01 +1100. <2645C3F3-937F-469B-82D7-AACFBEA72DF5@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: I've seen this sort of problem with my HP laser printer as well. Things start getting wiggy with streaks and whatnot. There seems to be plenty of toner left in the cartridge (as opposed to outright missing toner on a printed page causing missing areas of print), but putting a new cartridge in fixes it. When I'm feeling cheap, I live with the streaks until I start getting outages. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jan 21 18:02:38 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 19:02:38 -0500 Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43D2CB9E.8010803@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>>It would be interesting to know what went wrong with the old >>>cartridge. >>>Is it that the drum is damaged in some way and doesn't discharge >>>properly usder the erasing lamps? Or is it that the wiper blade >>>doesn't >>>clean the surface of the drum properly? Or what? >> >>Well I still have the old drum at home (keep meaning to take it to >>work for recycling and keep forgetting). If you want I can don gloves >>and a mask and attempt to open it to see what looks broken inside... > > > Is toner really that harmfuL? I don't think it's particularly toxic, but a large quantity of anything ground that finely will screw up your lungs enough to make you want avoid inhaling it. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 21 18:12:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 16:12:07 -0800 Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601211612070537.16291F11@10.0.0.252> We've got a couple of old Panasonic KX-P4455s here (great indestructible commecial-duty printers, BTW). When we get the streaking, the first thing to replace is the developer unit. If that doesn't clean things up, then the drum unit. I suspect either a wiper or seal just deteriorates enough to let toner through. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 21 18:42:31 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 16:42:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: sun 800/1600/6250 drive Message-ID: <20060122004231.7C4E9196E1E@bitsavers.org> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5856102422 this is interesting because it's $100 with reasonable shipping and every Sun OEMed 88780 i've seen can support 800bpi. From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jan 21 18:48:14 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 19:48:14 -0500 Subject: Potting compounds Message-ID: <001001c61eed$872af660$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I'm making that front panel power switch mod and I have a small 9v wall wart that I pulled apart, and a 9v relay. I want to encapsulate the whole thing in a box. I don't know much about potting compounds - what would be the best compound for this application? Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Jan 21 19:07:12 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 17:07:12 -0800 Subject: sun 800/1600/6250 drive In-Reply-To: <20060122004231.7C4E9196E1E@bitsavers.org> References: <20060122004231.7C4E9196E1E@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200601211707.12374.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Saturday 21 January 2006 16:42, Al Kossow wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5856102422 > > this is interesting because it's $100 with reasonable shipping > and every Sun OEMed 88780 i've seen can support 800bpi. I don't think I'd buy from this guy - he has a feedback rating of: 95.3% Lots of complaints regarding non-working equipment, non-delivery - and even failure to pay for items he purchased... Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 21 20:03:20 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 18:03:20 -0800 Subject: Potting compounds In-Reply-To: <001001c61eed$872af660$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <001001c61eed$872af660$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <200601211803200119.168EEF1B@10.0.0.252> On 1/21/2006 at 7:48 PM Richard A. Cini wrote: > I'm making that front panel power switch mod and I have a small >9v wall wart that I pulled apart, and a 9v relay. I want to encapsulate the >whole thing in a box. I don't know much about potting compounds - what >would be the best compound for this application? I'd use a 2 part either acrylic or epoxy resin (with filler, if desired. But why bother? Why not just a little die-cast utilty box? From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jan 21 21:08:00 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 21:08:00 -0600 Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43D2F710.4070204@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > Would a normal flatbed scanner have enough resolution to scan a page of > softstrips and then decode the image in software again? Yes. Did this for an essay a while back; from my rotting memory, the SoftStrip Laser StripMaker manual said that for a 300 DPI desktop laser printer, the densities are approximately as follows: - Low density: 590 bytes per 100mm - Medium density: 1040 bytes per 100mm - High density: 1630 bytes per 100mm Maximum strip length for vertical strips is 240mm and for horizontal strips 175mm. I don't believe that strips were produced higher than 300 DPI ;-) so a $50 1200 DPI scanner could exceed nyquist and get them in B&W monochrome mode. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mokuba at gmail.com Sun Jan 22 00:35:13 2006 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 01:35:13 -0500 Subject: Microsoft doesn't like ClassicCmp? Message-ID: Microsoft Entourage (outlook like program in office 2004 for mac) follows every email rule... EXCEPT the classiccmp rule set From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Jan 22 00:48:31 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 01:48:31 -0500 Subject: Microsoft doesn't like ClassicCmp? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43D32ABF.7010303@atarimuseum.com> Is this surprising to anyone? Given that usenet is now maintained by an itty bitty little firm, anyone heard of Google? The fact that Google is now in the crosshairs just as Netscape Navigator was 10 years ago and Microsoft is attempting its own MS version of Google, so... Curt Gary Sparkes wrote: > Microsoft Entourage (outlook like program in office 2004 for mac) >follows every email rule... EXCEPT the classiccmp rule set > > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.21/236 - Release Date: 1/20/2006 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 21 18:22:52 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 16:22:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was the first color portable? Message-ID: <20060122002252.89987.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> I FINALLY got my TI portable professional in the mail today. Nearly 50 lbs oi. Did anything sporting a color crt predate this unit? Whos going to help me retrofit a more modern and snappy tube? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 22 02:35:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 00:35:43 -0800 Subject: Qume DT-8 Schematic Message-ID: <200601220035430051.17F62803@10.0.0.252> Anyone got the schematics for a Qume DT-8 8" floppy drive? Mine quit delivering a signal from either head suddenly, so it's time to pull out the soldering iron. Thanks, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Jan 22 03:52:57 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 09:52:57 +0000 Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43D355F9.9060500@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>>5150 cassette (DRIVE is available, interface isn't) >> >>Nah, comes on ebay once a week. > > > Hang on, the format of the 5150 cassette recording is given in the > TechRef. Now I've not tried this, and I've not got the hardware to do it, > but surely you could play the tape on a normal audio recorder into a > modern PC soundcard and analyse the signals in software. A modern PC > should be easily fast enough A lot of emulators for 8-bit machines do this. I can't see it being difficult to work out for the 5150. What *is* a cool hack is software that will turn sysex dumps for old synths that support patch storage on tape *and* sysex into tape tones, and vice-versa. Alesis Freeloader springs to mind. Gordon. From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sun Jan 22 01:55:45 2006 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:55:45 +1100 Subject: what was the first color portable? References: <20060122002252.89987.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000301c61f3c$0fc49c80$0100a8c0@pentium> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris M" To: "talk" Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 11:22 AM Subject: what was the first color portable? >I FINALLY got my TI portable professional in the mail > today. Nearly 50 lbs oi. Did anything sporting a color > crt predate this unit? Whos going to help me retrofit > a more modern and snappy tube? Commodore SX64 I believe was the first colour 'portable'. cheers, Lance // http://landover.no-ip.com Classic machines, classic software // From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Jan 22 04:53:34 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 11:53:34 +0100 Subject: RK07 questions Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22CE@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Alright, I here are the results of my measurements on the RK07. My first step was to replace the 6-button/indicator panel with the *original* panel. When I got the drive, the "B" button was a little damaged, so that the white "B" plastic cap did not lock on properly on the button. I had a complete panel, so I swapped the two. That was some months ago. As I connected the RK07 last week or so, I found out that two bulbs were defective, and replaced them after checking with the *Ohm meter* that those were OK. I wrote that the READY lamp did not light up, and I did check that the bulb was OK ... I had fixed the panel with the "difficult" "B" button cap, so I replaced the two panels. The READY lamp goes ON! Great, the RK07 drive is OK, it must be something with the panel. I swapped the two panels again, and yes the READY lamp stays off. Again, I swapped the two panels, and took the suspicious panel to my shack (more test equipment available there). Applied +5V to the panel board ... RUN STOP, WRITE PROT and FAULT turn on, READY, "A", and "B" stay off. For "A" and "B" that is correct as they are connected via an inverter. Applying Gnd to the input pins of E1 (on the Operators Control Panel), and "A" and "B" turn on. But the READY lamps stays off; OK, so E3 is gone. However checking the input (6/7) and output pin (5) shows the correct functioning of this 75452! Is the lamp defective again? This time (on the work bench) I did not use an Ohm meter, but the +5V power supply ... the lamps glowed *very* dim, barely visible! The lamp has a different rating! I installed a +6.3V type in the READY indicator; the panel works! Please don't laugh :-) It turned out in the end that just a simple light bulb of wrong rating got me working for several hours! Lesson learned: check and double-check, do not assume the worst, but start with the very simple things! BTW, an other good thing comes from this exercise: I checked on bitsavers, and there is no field printset of the RK06/RK06. I will scan my set this week and upload it. - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Tony Duell Verzonden: za 21-01-2006 01:35 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: RK07 questions > Wow, thanks Tony! > I had not even had the time to pull the RK07 diagrams from the stack! You were lucky. I happened to know where my RK07 prints were... > This gives me a jump start, and I hope to get to it this weekend. > I'll let you know ... Good luck. Feel free to ask anything abotu this drive's hardware. I find it a particularly interesting one, and spent many enjoyable hours reading that print. -tony This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jan 22 05:05:24 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 11:05:24 +0000 Subject: AMI S1427A clock chip? (in a Pernicka model 100-C Precision Chronometer) Message-ID: Does anyone have a data sheet on an AMI S1427A clock chip? I have this Pernicka Corp 'Model 100-C' panel-mount clock (S/N C008). The clock itself is self-contained - runs off of a 9V battery, has two switches for setting the time and date, and is set in a nice round panel-mount housing. The PCB has just the chip (with a date code of 7728), 3 diodes, 2 resistors, 2 caps, a crystal and a trimmer. The S1427A drives a 4-digit unbuffered LCD panel. Thanks for any pointers, -ethan From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Jan 22 05:53:58 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 12:53:58 +0100 Subject: RK07 questions Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22D1@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I must make a correction to a remark I made on a reply of Tony. Tony wrote to FORMAT the RK07 pack. I told that under RT11, you can use INIT, but to FORMAT you need XXDP. Allthough that can be true for some media, I was wrong regarding the RK07. Perhaps I was a bit mislead by my RK07 drive, but the following tests show that Tony was correct. I booted RT11 on the 11/34 from DL0:. These are the commands and their responses that I got, after I loaded a pack (and READY on) .DIR DM0: ?DIR-F-Error reading directory .INIT DM0: DM0:Initialize: Are you sure? Y ?DUP-F-Size function failed .FORMAT DM0: DM0:FORMAT-Are you sure? Y ?FORMAT-F-Device not ready ?FORMAT-I-Formatting aborted Looking at the RT11 response, it seems that FORMAT is supported for the RK07, just as Tony said! It also shows that I am not completely out of the weeds ... - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jan 22 10:01:03 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 11:01:03 -0500 Subject: Fuji 2444 tape drive power cord Message-ID: <20060122160103.1C4DFBA4831@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Somebody here asked about the Fuji 2444 tape drive power cord in the past couple of months. Sweeping up my basement, I found an example, and for future reference the connector is made by AMP, and it has the numbers 8542 and 206037-2 on the locking ring. If anyone wants this cord, they can E-mail me with their shipping address and we'll work out getting it to them. I think the locking ring on this particular cord is missing part of the locking ring (although it seems to mostly be there and it still rotates like I'd expect.) Tim. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 22 10:18:02 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 09:18:02 -0700 Subject: Keyboard part # for HP2648A? Message-ID: Hi, Does anyone know the part designation for the keyboard on an HP2648A? I've looked through the manual (unfortunately not OCRed so a visual inspection of all pages is required) but didn't see a part number for the keyboard itself. Anyone have one of these? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 22 10:39:36 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 09:39:36 -0700 Subject: source of manuals for terminals, test equipment Message-ID: Stumbled across this today, maybe it will come in handy for someone: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Jan 22 11:03:51 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:03:51 +0100 Subject: RK07 questions Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22D3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I did a few more tests with the RK07. As I did not have the correct bulkhead, I made one from a "decommissioned" RL02 drive. The socket to the cable is identical to the one for the RK07. As nothing seemed to work, I guessed that I might have the flatcable between the socket on the "bulkhead" and the RK611 controller (M7904 module) the wrong way around installed. So, I installed the flatcable the other way around on the bulkhead. I get quite different responses now! The command ".INIT DM0:" gives the response "?DUP-F-Error reading bad block replacement table DM0:" but the FAULT light is turned on! When I enter the command ".FORMAT DM0:", the FAULT light goes off, and I get the response as written in my previous post. When I enter "DIR DM0:" the FAULT light is turned on also. On many occasions the system hangs, although that is not apparent from the front panel on the 11/34. But the system does not respond nor echo anything I type on the VT100 console terminal anymore. What is even more strange, is that when I repeat (after rebooting) the .INIT command or the .FORMAT command, is that I can see clearly the READY lamp flash off/on, and after a few more attempts, I can hear the movement, and *see* the whole drive "shake" (it still on its wheels and not on the rubber "feet"). I can even see the "A" lamp go on and off a few times, so that shows that the controller accesses the drive. Then the system hangs again. Can I conclude that the cable is now correctly connected from the RK611 controller -> bulkhead -> RK07 drive ? What could explain the symptoms that I see? - what can cause the system non-responsive (RT11 does not catch the error) - why does the execution of the command seems to get a step further every time I run them? thanks, - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Gooijen, Henk Verzonden: zo 22-01-2006 12:53 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: RE: RK07 questions I must make a correction to a remark I made on a reply of Tony. Tony wrote to FORMAT the RK07 pack. I told that under RT11, you can use INIT, but to FORMAT you need XXDP. Allthough that can be true for some media, I was wrong regarding the RK07. Perhaps I was a bit mislead by my RK07 drive, but the following tests show that Tony was correct. I booted RT11 on the 11/34 from DL0:. These are the commands and their responses that I got, after I loaded a pack (and READY on) .DIR DM0: ?DIR-F-Error reading directory .INIT DM0: DM0:Initialize: Are you sure? Y ?DUP-F-Size function failed .FORMAT DM0: DM0:FORMAT-Are you sure? Y ?FORMAT-F-Device not ready ?FORMAT-I-Formatting aborted Looking at the RT11 response, it seems that FORMAT is supported for the RK07, just as Tony said! It also shows that I am not completely out of the weeds ... - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 22 12:26:34 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 10:26:34 -0800 Subject: 2.11BSD Message-ID: I'm trying to update stuff on the DEC Emulation website. What is the current status of 2.11BSD, and where would one go to find the patch archive these days? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jan 22 12:34:48 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 12:34:48 -0600 Subject: cctech list References: <20060120203013.84374.qmail@web50502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <032b01c61f82$87c19c60$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> William Blair wrote.... > Is the moderator of cctech on vacation or has that list been merged with > this one? I've tried to > subscribe twice and haven't yet received a single digest. My cctalk > subscription succeeded the > same day (obviously). I generally try to do the new subscription approvals myself, however, often some of the kind folks doing the gating from cctalk to ccteck jump in and do it for me. My apologies for the delay. But since you mentioned it - yes, at some point in the not too distant future cctalk and cctech will be merged. It's simply too much effort to keep them separate. Regards, Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jan 22 12:51:25 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 12:51:25 -0600 Subject: Keyboard part # for HP2648A? References: Message-ID: <033801c61f84$d8b39630$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> I have three 2648A terminals... one has the keyboard that has tape drive controls on it. Unfortunately the HP tag is gone from the bottom of that keyboard. The other two terminals have keyboards labled 02640-60180, which do not have the tape controls on them. Given that all three terminals have dual tape drives.... I'm betting that I got the wrong keyboards when I got the terminals. Someone wanna trade 264x keyboards without tape controls for ones that do? :) Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 10:18 AM Subject: Keyboard part # for HP2648A? > Hi, > > Does anyone know the part designation for the keyboard on an HP2648A? > I've looked through the manual (unfortunately not OCRed so a visual > inspection of all pages is required) but didn't see a part number for > the keyboard itself. > > Anyone have one of these? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 22 13:02:46 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 12:02:46 -0700 Subject: Keyboard part # for HP2648A? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 22 Jan 2006 12:51:25 -0600. <033801c61f84$d8b39630$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Message-ID: Wow... 3 of 'em :-). How often do you fire them up? They used to have some of these in the terminal room at udel.edu and were the first raster graphics terminals I remember seeing, around 1980. I'm trying to secure my first unit from Boise -- I'll probably be able to pick it up next weekend. I got the user manual from bitsavers and I was surprised to see how many options it had, with a "main frame" and all that. Besides the dual tape drive option, do you have any other options on them? Recently some ROMs were offered on ebay but god knows what they actually provided (presumably they provided additional graphical character sets or something like that). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jan 22 13:37:58 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 14:37:58 -0500 Subject: RT11 manuals In-Reply-To: <008001c61dfc$93d34b20$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <008001c61dfc$93d34b20$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <43D3DF16.8060309@compsys.to> >Jim Beacon wrote: >Hi, > >does anyone have, or know of an online "quick reference" manual or similar >for RT11 V5? I have just got RT11 on an 11/23+, but have never used the >software before, so I'm very much in the dark! >Alternatively, does anyone in the UK have a paper set of RT11 manuals that >they no-longer have space for? >Thanks >Jim. >Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK > Jerome Fine replies: If you are running V05.00 OF RT-11 or later, you will find that the HELP command probably provides most of the same information as the "quick reference" manual. The DCL (DEC Command Language) interface provides a broad range of commands such as COPY, DIR, RENAME, etc. which are similar to what DOS adopted - DOS might have lifted its set of names from RT-11, since back in 1980, I doubt if anyone had attempted to trademark the COPY command. HELP * provides a list of the possible commands. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jan 22 13:38:30 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 13:38:30 -0600 Subject: Keyboard part # for HP2648A? References: Message-ID: <039001c61f8b$6c992990$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> You wrote.... > Wow... 3 of 'em :-). Got a few 262x terminals too. The 262x and 264x are pretty nice terminals really. > How often do you fire them up? They used to have some of these in > the terminal room at udel.edu and were the first raster graphics > terminals I remember seeing, around 1980. the last month or two excepted..... about twice a week. They're kinda essential to boot my HP2000 systems. Also many of the HP off-line utilities get rather irked of you don't have an HP terminal on them. > I'm trying to secure my first unit from Boise -- I'll probably be able > to pick it up next weekend. I got the user manual from bitsavers and > I was surprised to see how many options it had, with a "main frame" > and all that. Besides the dual tape drive option, do you have any > other options on them? Recently some ROMs were offered on ebay but > god knows what they actually provided (presumably they provided > additional graphical character sets or something like that). When I was refurbishing my first 2648A, I spent a lot of time going through the manual from bitsavers. I was completely shocked at the features & functionality in it. I'm familiar with quite a lot of terminals and never saw one with so many features. It really is a little computer. As I recall (very foggy memory), the option roms gave you additional character sets, the ability to make your own characters... and I think there was a ram upgrade for graphic memory. There were also option cards for additional serial ports, HPIB ports, etc (I luckily have those). Well, when you pick yours up, let me know if they have any extra keyboards that have the tape controls in the center :> I haven't looked at my HP stuff in a while, but I do recall that my 2648A's were completely stuffed with option cards. By the way... if your terminal needs parts.... Of the three 2648's I have, one has been restored to perfect condition. Another is half-restored, using some parts from the third. If your terminal needs parts, you're welcome to the leftover parts from my 3rd donor system. Best regards, Jay West From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sun Jan 22 14:56:17 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 12:56:17 -0800 Subject: 2.11BSD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43D3F171.4030104@mindspring.com> I got the base distribution from here: http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/ucb/ and the patch archive (thru #444 circa Feb 2003) is located here: ftp://moe.2bsd.com/pub/2.11BSD/ I am running 2.11BSD PL444 on my (real) 11/44 and it runs fine (MSCP SCSI disks and tape; DEUNA ethernet). Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm trying to update stuff on the DEC Emulation website. > > What is the current status of 2.11BSD, and where would one go to find > the patch archive these days? > > Zane > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 22 15:24:19 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 13:24:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was the first color portable? In-Reply-To: <20060122002252.89987.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060122002252.89987.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060122132031.A49212@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 21 Jan 2006, Chris M wrote: > I FINALLY got my TI portable professional in the mail > today. Nearly 50 lbs oi. Did anything sporting a color > crt predate this unit? Whos going to help me retrofit > a more modern and snappy tube? I'd strongly recommend to NEVER ask "FIRST?"! The Commodore SX64 was one of the first TO BE MASS PRODUCED. But there were MANY before that. The Elcompco (Model V?) was built into a Halliburton attache case (like the drug dealers use), and had provision for connecting the viewfinder from a TV camera for use as a portable display. From technobug at comcast.net Sun Jan 22 16:30:20 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 15:30:20 -0700 Subject: source of manuals for terminals, test equipment In-Reply-To: <200601221712.k0MHBxL0035417@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601221712.k0MHBxL0035417@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7E31A6AA-7E07-46C5-892A-94FC7E0044DC@comcast.net> On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 09:39:36 -0700, Richard wrote: > Stumbled across this today, maybe it will come in handy for someone: > > A good set of links: - a little dated, but fairly complete. On great site for free manuals is: CRC From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 22 17:02:59 2006 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 15:02:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Best computer history museums in the US? Message-ID: <20060122230259.3939.qmail@web50509.mail.yahoo.com> I've heard that the Computer History Museum in Mountain View CA is a good one. Any comments? If one had to choose only one (pre-PC) computer history museum to visit in the US, would that be the one to choose? Please provide leads to any other good computer museums in the US that have good hardware collections. I'm interested in pre-PC computer history only. The history of IC technology development also interests me and I'd enjoy hearing about any US museums/exhibits which focus on that topic. Thanks, Bill __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 22 12:40:26 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:40:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: <43D2CB9E.8010803@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Jan 21, 6 07:02:38 pm Message-ID: > > Is toner really that harmfuL? > > I don't think it's particularly toxic, but a large quantity of anything > ground that finely will screw up your lungs enough to make you want > avoid inhaling it. True, but haing dismantled toner cartridges, both for interest and to repair them, I've never had much af a cloud of toner. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 22 12:42:56 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:42:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Potting compounds In-Reply-To: <001001c61eed$872af660$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> from "Richard A. Cini" at Jan 21, 6 07:48:14 pm Message-ID: > > All: > > > > I'm making that front panel power switch mod and I have a small > 9v wall wart that I pulled apart, and a 9v relay. I want to encapsulate the > whole thing in a box. I don't know much about potting compounds - what would > be the best compound for this application? I wouldn't do that. Why make it impossible to repair later? Personally, I'd take a matal box, screw the transformer and relay to the inside, use tagstrip or striboard to mount the smaller components. Connect the box to mains earth and run the cables through grommets in the sides. Then, if something fails later, it'll be easy to put right. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 22 12:50:36 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:50:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK07 questions In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22CE@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Jan 22, 6 11:53:34 am Message-ID: > > Alright, I here are the results of my measurements on the RK07. > My first step was to replace the 6-button/indicator panel with > the *original* panel. When I got the drive, the "B" button was > a little damaged, so that the white "B" plastic cap did not > lock on properly on the button. I had a complete panel, so > I swapped the two. That was some months ago. > = > > As I connected the RK07 last week or so, I found out that two > bulbs were defective, and replaced them after checking with > the *Ohm meter* that those were OK. > I wrote that the READY lamp did not light up, and I did check > that the bulb was OK ... > I had fixed the panel with the "difficult" "B" button cap, so > I replaced the two panels. The READY lamp goes ON! > = Now what did I say about board-swapping ;-).... > Great, the RK07 drive is OK, it must be something with the panel. Well, we don't know it's OK yet. It could still have problems with, say, the data read/write circuits. But I think the servo side of things is doing the right things. > I swapped the two panels again, and yes the READY lamp stays off. > Again, I swapped the two panels, and took the suspicious panel to > my shack (more test equipment available there). > Applied +5V to the panel board ... RUN STOP, WRITE PROT and FAULT > turn on, READY, "A", and "B" stay off. For "A" and "B" that is > correct as they are connected via an inverter. Applying Gnd to > the input pins of E1 (on the Operators Control Panel), and "A" > and "B" turn on. But the READY lamps stays off; OK, so E3 is gone. > = > > However checking the input (6/7) and output pin (5) shows the > correct functioning of this 75452! Is the lamp defective again? > This time (on the work bench) I did not use an Ohm meter, but > the +5V power supply ... the lamps glowed *very* dim, barely > visible! The lamp has a different rating! > I installed a +6.3V type in the READY indicator; the panel works! > Please don't laugh :-) Having done that sort of thing many, many times, all I'll say at this point is that man-made faults are the worst to trace. Remind me to tell you sometime the story of the Epson QX10 graphics board that gave garbled displays after srolling, even though : All the components on the board were working correctly There wwre no bad connections, broken tracks, dry joints The links were set correctly There were no missing components Yes, it did happen to me, and the fault was most definitely man-made... > BTW, an other good thing comes from this exercise: I checked on > bitsavers, and there is no field printset of the RK06/RK06. I believe there are rather more differences between the RK06 and RK07 than, say, between the RL01 and RL02. The printset I have only covers the '07 -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 22 12:51:56 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:51:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK07 questions In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22D1@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Jan 22, 6 12:53:58 pm Message-ID: > It also shows that I am not completely out of the weeds ... Do you know that the controller and cabling are OK? Or could the fault not be in the drive? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 22 12:59:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 18:59:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK07 questions In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22D3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Jan 22, 6 06:03:51 pm Message-ID: > > I did a few more tests with the RK07. > As I did not have the correct bulkhead, I made one from a > "decommissioned" RL02 drive. The socket to the cable is identical to > the one for the RK07. AFAIK the bulknhead connectors and the 40 wy ribbon cables are the same for the RL's and the RK07. The cables between the bulkheads and the drives, or between the drives, are not. I assume you are not trying to use an RL cable here. > As nothing seemed to work, I guessed that I might have the flatcable > between the socket on the "bulkhead" and the RK611 controller (M7904 > module) the wrong way around installed. > So, I installed the flatcable the other way around on the bulkhead. > I get quite different responses now! The command ".INIT DM0:" gives > the response "?DUP-F-Error reading bad block replacement table DM0:" > but the FAULT light is turned on! > When I enter the command ".FORMAT DM0:", the FAULT light goes off, > and I get the response as written in my previous post. > When I enter "DIR DM0:" the FAULT light is turned on also. > > On many occasions the system hangs, although that is not apparent > from the front panel on the 11/34. But the system does not respond > nor echo anything I type on the VT100 console terminal anymore. > > What is even more strange, is that when I repeat (after rebooting) > the .INIT command or the .FORMAT command, is that I can see clearly > the READY lamp flash off/on, and after a few more attempts, I can > hear the movement, and *see* the whole drive "shake" (it still on > its wheels and not on the rubber "feet"). I can even see the "A" > lamp go on and off a few times, so that shows that the controller > accesses the drive. Then the system hangs again. > > Can I conclude that the cable is now correctly connected from the > RK611 controller -> bulkhead -> RK07 drive ? > What could explain the symptoms that I see? I wouid love to know haw 'hung' the machine is. In particular, is it stuck in a state with one of the BG or NPG lines asserted? I think at this point I'd check the cabling very carefully (I've been known to 'buzz out' the connectios between the driver chips in the controller and the receiver chips in the drive, and vice versa, just to be sure). Then I'd try sending commands to the RK611 from the front panel, at least to do seeks. Run the drive with the rear cover off and the logic box folded out, so you can see the head movement and the LEDs on the boards in the drive. See if those commands work without FAULT, and without ant errors in the controller registers. One final thing. IIRC, the RK611 is quite power-hungry. Have you checked your power lineas re all correct still? -tony From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Jan 22 18:39:43 2006 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:39:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Amiga help wanted in Spokane Message-ID: <20060123003943.53740.qmail@web34113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Do not email me, Steven, please respond to PJ: ----> Name: PJ - allyn at nctv.com Does anyone know where I can get my Amiga A1000 and Amiga A2000 reparied. Preferably in the Spokane area? It would be very much appreciated. I can not get them to turn on! <---- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Jan 22 18:45:05 2006 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 16:45:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Compaq III Portable available in Virgina - free? Message-ID: <20060123004505.99603.qmail@web34111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Do not email me, Steven, please respond to Don: -----> Compaq Portable III - plasma screen - 2 20M drives Hi, We're moving and I'd hate to junk this. Needs setup disk according to boot error. Otherwise in great shape. Let me know if you're interested. Thanks, Don donantal at comcast.net (h) 703-684-8401 (c) 703-624-8702 <----- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From news at computercollector.com Sun Jan 22 18:55:33 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 19:55:33 -0500 Subject: Best computer history museums in the US? In-Reply-To: <20060122230259.3939.qmail@web50509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003901c61fb7$b7bad9b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Bill, good timing ... I've been updating my list of U.S. computer museums and will post it soon (and will cc: this list when it's ready.) - Evan K. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Blair Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 6:03 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Best computer history museums in the US? I've heard that the Computer History Museum in Mountain View CA is a good one. Any comments? If one had to choose only one (pre-PC) computer history museum to visit in the US, would that be the one to choose? Please provide leads to any other good computer museums in the US that have good hardware collections. I'm interested in pre-PC computer history only. The history of IC technology development also interests me and I'd enjoy hearing about any US museums/exhibits which focus on that topic. Thanks, Bill __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Jan 22 19:14:36 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 17:14:36 -0800 Subject: Best computer history museums in the US? In-Reply-To: <20060122230259.3939.qmail@web50509.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060122230259.3939.qmail@web50509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200601221714.36614.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 22 January 2006 15:02, William Blair wrote: > I've heard that the Computer History Museum in Mountain View CA is a good > one. Any comments? If one had to choose only one (pre-PC) computer > history museum to visit in the US, would that be the one to choose? If I had only one computer museum to visit, it would be the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, CA. They have the largest collection of pre PC computers in the world - including an operational DEC PDP-1 (and another on tour (not operational) - I think it's in Chicago now), an operational IBM 1620 and an IBM 1401 restoration in progress. > Please provide leads to any other good computer museums in the US that have > good hardware collections. I'm interested in pre-PC computer history only. > The history of IC technology development also interests me and I'd enjoy > hearing about any US museums/exhibits which focus on that topic. The Intel Museum in Sunnyvale, CA (15 minutes from the Computer History Museum has a good history of Intel chips and related info. Their exhibit is also great for kids 10 and up. The Tech Museum in San Jose, CA (20 minutes from the Computer History Museum) is great for kids and adults... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Jan 22 19:46:32 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 19:46:32 -0600 Subject: HP 9ks at Boeing (OT) Message-ID: <51dacb16ac67466e9c8fcc531ee473cd@valleyimplants.com> On Sat. Boeing surplus had a HP K460, K260 and V2200 for sale, $10 EA. This was about noon, don't know if they're still there. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jan 22 20:41:53 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 20:41:53 -0600 Subject: pdp stuff available... 11/84, FPS100, (several) Message-ID: <005201c61fc6$92d29de0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Available in Marietta Georgia.... Around six 11/84's, and a pile of FPS-100 array processors. There are some Emulex SC-31's and some SCSI controllers. I'm looking for someone to pass the deal off to who can pick it all up within the next 2 weeks. Contact me offlist.... Jay West jwest at classiccmp.org From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 22 20:45:51 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 19:45:51 -0700 Subject: HP 9ks at Boeing (OT) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 22 Jan 2006 19:46:32 -0600. <51dacb16ac67466e9c8fcc531ee473cd@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: In article <51dacb16ac67466e9c8fcc531ee473cd at valleyimplants.com>, compoobah at valleyimplants.com writes: > On Sat. Boeing surplus had a HP K460, K260 and V2200 for sale, $10 EA. Thi= > s was about noon, don't know if they're still there.=0D=0A=0D=0A Is this in Seattle? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jan 22 23:26:05 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 00:26:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: <200601201756.JAA06579@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200601201756.JAA06579@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <200601230529.AAA00636@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I had a similar problem that was buildup of toner on the drum. It > would not completely erase. I tried just about everything and then > finally changed the tone/drum unit. This fixed it. I was hoping to avoid that; the toner carts are mildly expensive and slightly inconvenient to get. (Hmm, I may have a NIB one sitting around somewhere, come to think of it.) Still, it's definitely helpful to know that that fixed one case of the problem. > I'd suspect that one could bake the drum and it would work better > again. My guess is that it is moisture getting into the drum > surface. The 3si uses the organic drum. I was actually thinking it might be too *dry* air, because it started when winter struck, with its tendency to dry air indoors. > Still, he should do a general cleanup of things. Any more specific suggestions? For example, any precautions to take when cleaning the drum in the toner cart? Low light level? Paper towel? Lint-free cloth? Do it in a humid atmosphere? Bake it in a vaguely warm oven for a few hours first? Anythiing else I should be sure to clean? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 23 00:17:04 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 23:17:04 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4010 hardware hacks Message-ID: The 4010 consists of a card cage with a well defined bus interface. Has any hobbyist done a hardware hack by creating a card for its internal bus? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jan 23 00:53:16 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 01:53:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: RT11 manuals In-Reply-To: <43D3DF16.8060309@compsys.to> References: <008001c61dfc$93d34b20$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <43D3DF16.8060309@compsys.to> Message-ID: <200601230654.BAA01196@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The DCL (DEC Command Language) [...] I'm moderately sure (only "moderately"; it *was* something like two decades ago that I last used it much) that the VMS documentation called it "Digital Command Language". Am I misremembering, or did they rename it, or what? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Mon Jan 23 01:26:10 2006 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 08:26:10 +0100 (MET) Subject: streaky printing? Message-ID: <23718.1138001170@www063.gmx.net> der Mouse wrote: > I have an HP LaserJet IIISi. (...) The second page exhibits a few > grey vertical streaks, worse towards the bottom of the page - not > clean vertical lines; it looks as though toner is getting into the > paper path where it shouldn't, and rubbing off on the page before > it hits the fuser. Printing more pages works fine, but they get > worse and worse. I've never had the streaks get so dark that I > can't read printing for them, but the printing definitely becomes > black-on-grey instead of black-on-white. ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > It would be interesting to know what went wrong with the old cartridge. > Is it that the drum is damaged in some way and doesn't discharge > properly usder the erasing lamps? Or is it that the wiper blade doesn't > clean the surface of the drum properly? Or what? Hmm, sounds a bit familiar. I had such problems with an HP LaserJet 4 and a Brother HL-1260 (which uses the same toner/drum unit) up to now. However, I didn't notice them being less streaky after being turned off for a while, so it might really be a problem with the erasing lamp or something similar in your case. You might want to test that by swapping another drum unit in. With me, the problem always was the drum wiper. You have to disassemble the drum/toner/waste toner cartridge a bit to get there (there's two plastic brackets fastened with screws on the top side with springs hidden underneath; remove those and the toner reservoir separates, then unscrew the right drum bearing - a metal part with a pin extending into the drum, two screws -, remove the drum and stick it in a dark bag or closet. I always worked in a darkened room up to here. Behind the drum, there is a black rubber roller that snaps out of two spring-loaded bearings, and a metal plate which holds the drum wiper (two screws). Remove that plate and while you're at it, empty the waste toner chamber behind it into a plastic bag. Then comes the tricky part - readjusting the wiper. It's a near-transparent elastic profile. Firstly clean it with a paper towel - there will be some toner on it. You may see it's a bit out of shape when the streaks have a characteristic distribution across the page; try to straighten the edge a bit. You can use bits of paper with holes punched under the areas where the metal is screwed to the plastic casing to bring the wiper towards the drum axis or to modify the angle under which it touches the drum surface when you reassemble the unit; it sometimes takes two or three attempts to get it right.) Of course, that only makes sense if there is still a substantial amount of toner in the cartridge; if not, changing it is perhaps better. -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de 10 GB Mailbox, 100 FreeSMS/Monat http://www.gmx.net/de/go/topmail +++ GMX - die erste Adresse f?r Mail, Message, More +++ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jan 23 06:45:59 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 12:45:59 +0000 Subject: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43D4D007.5090700@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Having done that sort of thing many, many times, all I'll say at this > point is that man-made faults are the worst to trace. Remind me to tell > you sometime the story of the Epson QX10 graphics board that gave garbled > displays after srolling, even though : > > All the components on the board were working correctly > There wwre no bad connections, broken tracks, dry joints > The links were set correctly > There were no missing components Go on, then... ;-) Gordon From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jan 23 09:38:30 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:38:30 Subject: NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist was Re: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <43D2CA43.1080900@gmail.com> References: <43D29892.3010000@mdrconsult.com> <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <43D1AE1E.8000902@oldskool.org> <43D1AEDA.4010505@gmail.com> <200601210006.10564.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20060121114643.V15897@shell.lmi.net> <43D29892.3010000@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060123093830.4b17b108@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:56 PM 1/21/06 -0500, Shidhar wrote: >Doc Shipley wrote: >> >> In all seriousness, given the various skillsets, histories, and >> computing capacity of ClassicCmp's members, I really doubt that this >> list ever goes off their radar. > >There are probably a few members of this list that would be on their >radar without the list's help. > We should take head count of everyone on this list that expects that they're on the NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist. I'm certain I am! (and dammed proud of it!) Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jan 23 09:45:12 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:45:12 Subject: Potting compounds In-Reply-To: References: <001001c61eed$872af660$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060123094512.32f777da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I agree with Tony, don't pot the thing. Potting comound not only makes it difficult or impossible to repair but it also severly limits the heat dissappation of the electrical components and that will cause failures. At 06:42 PM 1/22/06 +0000, you wrote: >> >> All: >> >> >> >> I'm making that front panel power switch mod and I have a small >> 9v wall wart that I pulled apart, and a 9v relay. I want to encapsulate the >> whole thing in a box. I don't know much about potting compounds - what would >> be the best compound for this application? > > I wouldn't do that. Why make it impossible to repair later? Personally, >I'd take a matal box, screw the transformer and relay to the inside, use >tagstrip or striboard to mount the smaller components. Connect the box to >mains earth and run the cables through grommets in the sides. > >Then, if something fails later, it'll be easy to put right. > >-tony > From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jan 23 09:02:42 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 07:02:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist was Re: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060123093830.4b17b108@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at "Jan 23, 6 09:38:30 am" Message-ID: <200601231502.HAA12366@floodgap.com> > We should take head count of everyone on this list that expects that > they're on the NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist. I'm certain I am! > (and dammed proud of it!) I just wave to the black helicopters every morning. Hi, guys. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- God made the integers; all else is the work of Man. -- Kronecker ----------- From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Jan 23 09:31:08 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:31:08 -0500 Subject: NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist was Re: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:38:30." <3.0.6.16.20060123093830.4b17b108@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200601231531.k0NFV8dT025290@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Joe R." wrote: > > We should take head count of everyone on this list that expects that >they're on the NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist. I'm certain I am! >(and dammed proud of it!) I work by myself in a small office jammed with lots of wires and machines. I get fed-ex, ups and dhl packages from all over the world on a daily basis. I get a lot from the pac-rim. and I hear clicks on my phone all the time. should I be paranoid? :-) -brad I looked for the checkbox on my tax form which says "please don't spend my money on domestic surveillance" but I couldn't find it. Plus, I thought we fixed that problem after the last set of abuses. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jan 23 10:45:48 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:45:48 -0600 Subject: NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist was Re: A little OT: Google References: <43D29892.3010000@mdrconsult.com><200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252><43D1AE1E.8000902@oldskool.org> <43D1AEDA.4010505@gmail.com><200601210006.10564.pat@computer-refuge.org><20060121114643.V15897@shell.lmi.net><43D29892.3010000@mdrconsult.com> <3.0.6.16.20060123093830.4b17b108@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <00a601c6203c$768df820$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> wayyy off topic ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:38 AM Subject: NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist was Re: A little OT: Google > At 06:56 PM 1/21/06 -0500, Shidhar wrote: >>Doc Shipley wrote: > >>> >>> In all seriousness, given the various skillsets, histories, and >>> computing capacity of ClassicCmp's members, I really doubt that this >>> list ever goes off their radar. >> >>There are probably a few members of this list that would be on their >>radar without the list's help. >> > > We should take head count of everyone on this list that expects that > they're on the NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist. I'm certain I am! > (and dammed proud of it!) > > Joe > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jan 23 11:34:08 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:34:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Homebuilt relay computer Message-ID: <200601231734.JAA13149@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Roy J. Tellason" > >On Friday 20 January 2006 02:57 pm, J.C. Wren wrote: >> > >What's missing there is sound files, for when the thing is operating... :-) > > Hi I don't think he mentions the memory size. Dwight From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon Jan 23 11:43:41 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 12:43:41 -0500 Subject: Homebuilt relay computer In-Reply-To: <200601231734.JAA13149@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200601231734.JAA13149@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <43D515CD.6080109@jcwren.com> I believe he did. It's a 32K static RAM. It's under "Features Of The Sequencer Unit". --jc Dwight Elvey wrote: >> From: "Roy J. Tellason" >> >> On Friday 20 January 2006 02:57 pm, J.C. Wren wrote: >> >>> >>> >> What's missing there is sound files, for when the thing is operating... :-) >> >> >> > Hi > I don't think he mentions the memory size. > Dwight > > > From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Jan 23 11:45:35 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:45:35 -0600 Subject: Homebuilt relay computer In-Reply-To: <200601231734.JAA13149@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060123114446.059007f8@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 09:34 AM 1/23/2006 -0800, you wrote: > >From: "Roy J. Tellason" > > > >On Friday 20 January 2006 02:57 pm, J.C. Wren wrote: > >> > > > >What's missing there is sound files, for when the thing is > operating... :-) > > > > >Hi > I don't think he mentions the memory size. >Dwight Aside from the various relay registers, he says: "Main Memory (32K x 8bits, static RAM chip)" And yes, audio would have been a nice addition to the video. --tom From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jan 23 11:47:01 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:47:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: streaky printing? Message-ID: <200601231747.JAA13413@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> I had exactly the same problems with my 5M and after doing almost >> everything I could think of I finally read the manual (please don't >> quote me here :-). Turned out this symptom is most commonly fixed by >> replacing the toner cartridge which (perhaps not so surprisingly) >> fixed the problem. > >It would be interesting to know what went wrong with the old cartridge. >Is it that the drum is damaged in some way and doesn't discharge >properly usder the erasing lamps? Or is it that the wiper blade doesn't >clean the surface of the drum properly? Or what? > >-tony Hi My personal opinion is that the drum absorbs some moisture and toner tends to stick to it in a non-static way. On my machine it didn't happen when I was using it regularly but after some non-use in the winter time. The new drum works fine. It had the same problem. Right after turning on I'd get maybe two sheets printed before streaks would start to build up. Visual inspection of the drum showed toner remaining on the drum. I still have the old toner box and I've though of removing the drum and baking it for a while in the oven to see if it recovers. The toner is about half full. One can't bake both or the toner might turn into a lump. One would have to remove the drum. I've had one of these apart once and they are a little tricky to get apart but it can be done. Dwight From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Jan 23 11:50:33 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:50:33 -0600 Subject: Homebuilt relay computer In-Reply-To: <200601231734.JAA13149@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200601231734.JAA13149@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <43D51769.8080709@pacbell.net> Dwight Elvey wrote: >> From: "Roy J. Tellason" >> >> On Friday 20 January 2006 02:57 pm, J.C. Wren wrote: >>> >> What's missing there is sound files, for when the thing is operating... :-) >> >> > Hi > I don't think he mentions the memory size. > Dwight Yes, he does -- it is a 32K x 8 SRAM. Perhaps he is saving the memory system for another project -- perhaps a dynamic ram made out of 128K leaky balloons and lots of tubing. :-) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 23 12:09:37 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:09:37 -0700 Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 23 Jan 2006 09:47:01 -0800. <200601231747.JAA13413@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: In article <200601231747.JAA13413 at ca2h0430.amd.com>, "Dwight Elvey" writes: > My personal opinion is that the drum absorbs some moisture > and toner tends to stick to it in a non-static way. [...] I live in the desert and use my printer fairly often and I've had this problem. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jan 23 12:12:32 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:12:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: <200601231747.JAA13413@ca2h0430.amd.com> from Dwight Elvey at "Jan 23, 6 09:47:01 am" Message-ID: <200601231812.KAA20200@floodgap.com> Since we're talking about streaky printing, my LaserWriter 16/600 PS (LaserJet 4 engine) is doing its second set of printing an irregular black pattern down one side of a page. The remainder of the page is normal. Replacing the toner cartridge fixed this for awhile and it's doing it again. Agitating the cartridge to loosen up any toner piles didn't make much change. Before I go buy another toner cartridge, anything to check? They're not all that expensive but it is annoying if it's something correctable. By the way, have people noticed that laser paper no longer has sides? This printer insists on sided paper. If I load the wrong side up, it will jam. But the laser paper sold in Office Depot and so on no longer has sides, so I'm not sure where the curl is to load it properly. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Remember, Windows is not a virus. Viruses actually do something. ----------- From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 23 12:38:04 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 11:38:04 -0700 Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 23 Jan 2006 10:12:32 -0800. <200601231812.KAA20200@floodgap.com> Message-ID: In article <200601231812.KAA20200 at floodgap.com>, Cameron Kaiser writes: > By the way, have people noticed that laser paper no longer has sides? This > printer insists on sided paper. If I load the wrong side up, it will jam. > But the laser paper sold in Office Depot and so on no longer has sides, so > I'm not sure where the curl is to load it properly. The last time I bought paper, it still had a marking on the wrapper saying this side up, but that was a while ago. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Jan 23 12:59:37 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 13:59:37 -0500 Subject: NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist was Re: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <200601231531.k0NFV8dT025290@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200601231531.k0NFV8dT025290@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200601231359.37599.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 23 January 2006 10:31 am, Brad Parker wrote: > and I hear clicks on my phone all the time. > > should I be paranoid? :-) Nah, it's just them guys changing the tapes... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Jan 23 14:31:07 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:31:07 +0100 Subject: RK07 questions - now RK611 questions Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22DA@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> You are correct, Tony, board swapping tricked me (this time)! I think I can forget the RK07 drive for now, and concentrate on the RK611 controller. First, I checked the flat cable from the controller M7904 (drive interface) module to the home-made bulkhead. That flat cable is 100% OK. The round cable from the bulkhead to the drive is NOS, and the label is 70-12292-25, so I'm sure it is the RK06/RK07 drive cable, not the RL0x cable. Before pulling out all kind of equipment, I started with what a DEC engineer probably also would do: run the diagnostics! So, I loaded XXDP and ran ZR6A??.??? which is the test "RK611 diskless controller diagnostic #1". Here is the output. .R ZR6A??.??? ZR6AD0.BIN RK611 DISKLESS DIAGNOSTIC: PART 1 CZR6AD0 @ ATTEMPTING TO CLEAR CS1 WITH A SUB CLEAR BUS ADD INCORRECT TEST ERROR NUM PC 000041 033024 PREV EXPECT ACTUAL VALUE VALVE VALVE 013776 000200 100200 So, there is already a problem with the RK611 controller reported after the diagnostic runs some 5 seconds! A few months ago I scanned a pile of XXDP doc, but the ZR6A et al. was not amongst them :-( I am not sure I have a spare RK611 controller board set (going to the attick after this e-mail), but can somebody tell me which board is likely to be suspected? thanks, - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Tony Duell Verzonden: zo 22-01-2006 19:51 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: RK07 questions > It also shows that I am not completely out of the weeds ... Do you know that the controller and cabling are OK? Or could the fault not be in the drive? -tony This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jan 23 15:40:20 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 13:40:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: streaky printing? Message-ID: <200601232140.NAA20672@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Richard" > > >In article <200601231747.JAA13413 at ca2h0430.amd.com>, > "Dwight Elvey" writes: > >> My personal opinion is that the drum absorbs some moisture >> and toner tends to stick to it in a non-static way. [...] > >I live in the desert and use my printer fairly often and I've had this >problem. Well, so much for the moisture theory. It definitely was connected to the toner cartridge. I'm wondering if it isn't the wiper somehow. When I looked at mine, the wiper looked to be in good shape but who knows, it might have just looked good. When I find time to fiddle, I might take the old cartridge out and give a really good inpection. Dwight From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Jan 23 16:34:34 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:34:34 -0500 Subject: NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist was Re: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060123093830.4b17b108@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <43D29892.3010000@mdrconsult.com> <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <43D1AE1E.8000902@oldskool.org> <43D1AEDA.4010505@gmail.com> <200601210006.10564.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20060121114643.V15897@shell.lmi.net> <43D29892.3010000@mdrconsult.com> <3.0.6.16.20060123093830.4b17b108@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20060123223434.C80F6BA4833@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Joe R." wrote: > We should take head count of everyone on this list that expects that > they're on the NSA/CIA/Homeland Security/FBI watchlist. I'm certain I am! > (and dammed proud of it!) Well, where I work we have a direct hotline to DHS and another to FEMA. The FEMA one has a red light on it that's always blinking - the joke is that "to them, everything's an emergency!". In any event, my proxmity to Ft Meade and other government stuff brings me an interesting flow of HF, VHF, and UHF radio stuff that presumably was involved with the NSA at some point in its life. Tim. From news at computercollector.com Mon Jan 23 17:00:53 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:00:53 -0500 Subject: VCF East 3.0 exhibit registration is now open Message-ID: <002c01c62070$dd178550$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Hi all -- Sellam fixed his web site (there was a drive crash) -- and so VCF East 3.0 exhibit registration is now open. If you signed up for an exhibit already, you'll have to do so again. Sorry. The link is http://www.vintage.org/2006/east/exhibit.php For those who might be wondering, the reason I'm making this announcement instead of Sellam is because I run the local club hosting this edition of VCF. After all my newsletter just isn't * enough * extra work each week! ;) A refresher: VCF East is no longer in the Boston area. It moved to the InfoAge Learning Center (http://www.infoage.org) located in Wall, NJ, which is on the NJ coast about one hour east of Trenton, south of Newark, and north of Atlantic City. It's very easy to reach from the I-95 corridor or from the west via Pennsylvania. This edition is a ONE-DAY event (Saturday, March 13) but it will be a loooong day. The prices aren't yet determined but they will be fair and in line with past rates. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 23 17:07:42 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:07:42 -0700 Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 23 Jan 2006 13:40:20 -0800. <200601232140.NAA20672@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: In article <200601232140.NAA20672 at ca2h0430.amd.com>, "Dwight Elvey" writes: > >I live in the desert and use my printer fairly often and I've had this > >problem. > > Well, so much for the moisture theory. It definitely was > connected to the toner cartridge. [...] Agreed. Putting in a new toner cartridge always fixed it. Actually I'm impressed with how much of a solid workhorse my HP LaserJet 4000N has been. I'm a big of a print pig and I bought the cheapest duplexing laser printer I could get almost 10 years ago. I have put at least 10 boxes (not reams, but boxes of reams :-) of paper through this thing and probably 5-10 toner cartridges and it has never broken down. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 23 17:09:15 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:09:15 -0700 Subject: VCF East 3.0 exhibit registration is now open In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:00:53 -0500. <002c01c62070$dd178550$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: In article <002c01c62070$dd178550$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP>, "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" writes: > A refresher: VCF East is no longer in the Boston area. It moved to the > InfoAge Learning Center (http://www.infoage.org) located in Wall, NJ >[...] [Obligatory NJ joke]: What exit? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From news at computercollector.com Mon Jan 23 17:15:41 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:15:41 -0500 Subject: VCF East 3.0 exhibit registration is now open In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003401c62072$ee9153e0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Ya know, nobody from Jersey actually says that. But anyway -- Garden State Parkway exit 100. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 6:09 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VCF East 3.0 exhibit registration is now open In article <002c01c62070$dd178550$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP>, "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" writes: > A refresher: VCF East is no longer in the Boston area. It moved to >the InfoAge Learning Center (http://www.infoage.org) located in Wall, >NJ [...] [Obligatory NJ joke]: What exit? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 23 17:26:45 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:26:45 -0700 Subject: VCF East 3.0 exhibit registration is now open In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:15:41 -0500. <003401c62072$ee9153e0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: In article <003401c62072$ee9153e0$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP>, "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" writes: > Ya know, nobody from Jersey actually says that. I know, but the joke is that everyone in Jersey knows their exit :-). I'm from Delaware originally -- people from Jersey would drive across the bridge to cruise my home town (location of udel.edu) in an endless loop all night long. Even out west, when I meet someone from Jersey I just immediately blurt out "what exit?" and before they even know what's going on, they've already responded with the number. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 23 18:03:10 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 00:03:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <43D4D007.5090700@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jan 23, 6 12:45:59 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Having done that sort of thing many, many times, all I'll say at this > > point is that man-made faults are the worst to trace. Remind me to tell > > you sometime the story of the Epson QX10 graphics board that gave garbled > > displays after srolling, even though : > > > > All the components on the board were working correctly > > There wwre no bad connections, broken tracks, dry joints > > The links were set correctly > > There were no missing components > > Go on, then... ;-) OK, here's the explanation (and why I think it was a man-made fault). I bought a pair of QX10s at a radio rally, one working, the other for spares. Of course I had to find out what was wrong with the second one... The problem, as I mentioned was that the display was corrupted after a screen scroll.. And the fault was clearly on the graphics board. So I looked at that. It contains a 7220 graphics processor, 16 DRAMs, a bit of TTL, and a gate array (early versions had more TTL + charcter generator EPROM in place of this, alas mine are the later version) Now the DRAMs can eitehr be 4116s (giving 16K*16 video RAM) or 4164s (giving 64K*16). There are some links on the board that you set depending on which RAMs are installed, 3 of them select the signals on the 3 pins that are different between 4116s and 4164s : Pin 1 is either -5V or not connected; Pin 8 is either +12V or +5V, and pin 9 is either +5V or an address line. They were all set correctly. And the board basically worked. The display at boot-up was sane. Suspecting a RAM problem, I put in a complete new set of 4164s -- no change. And I tried the other socketed parts -- the 7220 and the gate array, in the working machine -- they were fine too. And all the TTL checked out. Oh yes, the power lines were fine too. After a lot of thinking, I spotted it. Pin 9 on the DRAMs was a power line on 4116s, and had decoupling capacitors on it. 8 (or maybe 16) 0.1uF disk ceramics to ground. Needless to say, when 4164s were fitted, and it bacame an address line, the poor little TTL chip that was driving it hadn't a hope of switching it fast enough with that sort of capacitive load. At boot up, this extra address line was always low (I think, anyway, it didn't have to switch), so everything was fine, after scrolling, it had to switch during the memory cycle, couldn't manage it, and thus the memory was not addressed correctly After removing the 'extra' capacitors, it worked fine. Be warned that these were not shown in the technical manual I have (which is why it took me so long to realise what was going on). My guess is that originally the board had been fitted with 4116s. Either one had failed, or the owner had wanted more video memory, and had done the conversion to 4164s, but hadn't removed the caps. The board behaved oddly, the machine was offloaded to me at the rally... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 23 18:04:46 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 00:04:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Homebuilt relay computer In-Reply-To: <43D515CD.6080109@jcwren.com> from "J.C. Wren" at Jan 23, 6 12:43:41 pm Message-ID: > > I believe he did. It's a 32K static RAM. It's under "Features Of The > Sequencer Unit". That's cheating. He should have wired up 262144 relays :-) (I think you can get away with 1 relay per bit). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 23 18:10:15 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 00:10:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK07 questions - now RK611 questions In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22DA@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Jan 23, 6 09:31:07 pm Message-ID: > > You are correct, Tony, board swapping tricked me (this time)! And yet you persist in wanting to do it... > I think I can forget the RK07 drive for now, and concentrate on the RK611 > controller. First, I checked the flat cable from the controller M7904 (dri= > ve > interface) module to the home-made bulkhead. That flat cable is 100% OK. > The round cable from the bulkhead to the drive is NOS, and the label is > 70-12292-25, so I'm sure it is the RK06/RK07 drive cable, not the RL0x cabl= > e. Can you open the hood at one end of that cable (it will unclip fairly easilt, I think you undo the screws on the cable clamp first). An RK07 cable as virtually all the pins wired, an RL cable has a lot unwired. I have learnt not to assume anything when tracing faults.... And do stick a voltmeter on the +5V line. Bitter experience (again) has taught me that this is a the cause of a lot of obscure problems. Best to eliminated it now... > = > > Before pulling out all kind of equipment, I started with what a DEC enginee= > r > probably also would do: run the diagnostics! So, I loaded XXDP and ran > ZR6A??.??? which is the test "RK611 diskless controller diagnostic #1". OK... > Here is the output. > = > > .R ZR6A??.??? > ZR6AD0.BIN > RK611 DISKLESS DIAGNOSTIC: PART 1 CZR6AD0 > @ > ATTEMPTING TO CLEAR CS1 WITH A SUB CLEAR > BUS ADD INCORRECT > TEST ERROR > NUM PC > 000041 033024 > PREV EXPECT ACTUAL > VALUE VALVE VALVE > 013776 000200 100200 > = > > So, there is already a problem with the RK611 controller reported after the= > > diagnostic runs some 5 seconds! A few months ago I scanned a pile of XXDP > doc, but the ZR6A et al. was not amongst them :-( > I am not sure I have a spare RK611 controller board set (going to the attic= > k > after this e-mail), but can somebody tell me which board is likely to be su= > spected? Do you want my help or not? Because I sure am not going to help you to swap boards. What I can tell you is how to trace that fault. The diagnostic seems to be saying that the top bit (bit 15) of CSR1 could not be cleared. So, let's grab the prints (but not tonight, it's late...) and find CSR 1, find out what should set and clear bit 15, and see what's going on there. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 23 17:52:10 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 23:52:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: <200601230529.AAA00636@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jan 23, 6 00:26:05 am Message-ID: > Any more specific suggestions? For example, any precautions to take > when cleaning the drum in the toner cart? Low light level? Paper > towel? Lint-free cloth? Do it in a humid atmosphere? Bake it in a > vaguely warm oven for a few hours first? Anythiing else I should be > sure to clean? My experience suggests that the coating on the drum is _extremely_ delicate, and I'd avoid cleanig it if possible. Work in a low light level sure (normal room lighting should be OK, but I'd put the drum inside an opaque container once you've got it out, while you're cleaning the other parts). I'd clean the wiper blade and corrona wires, and anything else that looks as though it could do with it. If you really have to clean the drum, I'd use a very soft cloth, I think. -tony From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Jan 23 18:33:12 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:33:12 -0500 Subject: Sorting out the BIT order of the RAM in the PX4 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110185539.03ae43c8@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060110170425.0499fab0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060123193107.04d55670@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Roger Merchberger may have mentioned these words: >Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: > >> > If they're 32K 28-pin ROMs and the carrier is similar to the >> > Model 100/102/200 series machines, then there's the ROMBO/MOMBO solution >> >>It is the same carrier as is used for the expansion ROM on the M100 (and >>I assume the other machines in that series). > >Whilst digging thru box #1 my metric buttload of 6876[46] HHC eproms, I >did come across 1 (yes, only 1) 32K 28-pin EPROM in the carrier. If I come >across more, I'll keep you informed (prolly in about 2 more weeks I'll be >going thru the other 2 boxen) but for now, that one I wanted to keep for >testing with my M10x/200's. I've made it thru Box #2, and I've found exactly 1 more 32K EPROM in the carrier; and a gold-pinned EPROM sans numbers that has me "intrigued"... Box #3 may come this weekend. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 23 19:10:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:10:16 -0800 Subject: Homebuilt relay computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601231710160332.20AB0BFE@10.0.0.252> On 1/24/2006 at 12:04 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >> >> I believe he did. It's a 32K static RAM. It's under "Features Of The >> Sequencer Unit". > >That's cheating. He should have wired up 262144 relays :-) (I think you >can get away with 1 relay per bit). Then there's the small matter of address decoding.... -Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 23 19:11:42 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:11:42 -0800 Subject: Anybody need some NSC 800-3I's? Message-ID: <200601231711420500.20AC5C92@10.0.0.252> Awhile back I posted a WTB for some NSC 800 CPU chips and didn't turn up anyone having any for sale. Calls to the usual surplus places came up empty. I did finally manage to snag a bunch of these--more than I need. These are the 3 MHz ceramic 40 pin DIP packages with a date code in late 1986. Supposedly NOS (they certainly don't appear to be pulls). In case you're not familiar with these, they're basically CMOS Z80 CPUs with 8085 timings. They have the same half-interrupt pins that the 8085 does, but NMI traps to 0066H and there's no RIM or SIM. Interface signals are prety much 8085-compatible with the 8085-style multipexed data/address lines. These are NOT pin-compatible with either the 8085 or the Z80, but my need for them is to replace an 8085 with the assistance of a little glue (mostly flipping a few signals). You can find the data sheet on the web at http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/NSC/NSC800.html. At any rate, I've got about 15 of these to spare and will part with them for $2 each+postage I'll give preference to those buying more than one. Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Jan 23 19:11:40 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:11:40 -0600 Subject: HP 9ks at Boeing (OT) Message-ID: <276fcdcce3f243198637c9ef09153a49@valleyimplants.com> Yep, Boeing Kent Washington. From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon Jan 23 20:33:11 2006 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:33:11 +1100 Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6350BED8-39AA-45B4-959D-B18A2F535098@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 22/01/2006, at 10:57 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Is toner really that harmfuL? > > Anyway, I am not sure you'd see nnything visibly wrong, > particularly if > it's a change in the optoelectrical properties of the drum. But I > guess > you would see a worn wiper. I'd heard that toner was (could be?) carcinogenic. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jan 23 21:45:52 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:45:52 Subject: Homebuilt relay computer In-Reply-To: References: <43D515CD.6080109@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060123214552.4cafca84@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:04 AM 1/24/06 +0000, you wrote: >> >> I believe he did. It's a 32K static RAM. It's under "Features Of The >> Sequencer Unit". > >That's cheating. He should have wired up 262144 relays :-) Wow! Think of the current spike when those all energized! And people thought TTL was bad! (I think you >can get away with 1 relay per bit). > >-tony > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 23 22:10:53 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 20:10:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: <6350BED8-39AA-45B4-959D-B18A2F535098@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <6350BED8-39AA-45B4-959D-B18A2F535098@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <20060123200804.Q6028@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, Huw Davies wrote: > I'd heard that toner was (could be?) carcinogenic. We had a "lab manager" at the college for years who refused to refill toner cartridges, "because if you ever get any on you or your clothes, it is impossible to wash off!" Nothing, including demonstrations would convince her otherwise. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jan 23 22:25:36 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 23:25:36 -0500 Subject: streaky printing? References: <6350BED8-39AA-45B4-959D-B18A2F535098@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <00fa01c6209e$3990f280$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Huw Davies" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:33 PM Subject: Re: streaky printing? > > On 22/01/2006, at 10:57 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Is toner really that harmfuL? > > > > Anyway, I am not sure you'd see nnything visibly wrong, > > particularly if > > it's a change in the optoelectrical properties of the drum. But I > > guess > > you would see a worn wiper. > > I'd heard that toner was (could be?) carcinogenic. Any fine particles like those are very bad for you if you breath them in. Be careful cleaning up toner spills and don't use a normal vacuum. From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Jan 23 23:16:43 2006 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:16:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 Message-ID: <20060124051643.58973.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I found this interesting - The IBM Personal System/2 Quick Reference Guide from 1992. It contains List as well as Educational (NEP) prices for hundreds of systems and components. Maxed-out PS/2 model 75 - only $11,295! (486, 33MHz, 8MB, 400MB) 38 JPEG images - very large in size - sorry, no PDF! http://members.cox.net/oldcomputerads/QRG/QRG.html Steve. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jan 23 23:49:48 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 23:49:48 -0600 Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: <20060123200804.Q6028@shell.lmi.net> References: <6350BED8-39AA-45B4-959D-B18A2F535098@kerberos.davies.net.au> <20060123200804.Q6028@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <43D5BFFC.5030805@mdrconsult.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, Huw Davies wrote: > >>I'd heard that toner was (could be?) carcinogenic. > > > We had a "lab manager" at the college for years who refused to > refill toner cartridges, "because if you ever get any on you or your > clothes, it is impossible to wash off!" Nothing, including > demonstrations would convince her otherwise. I'm saying she was pretty damned smart. Maybe not too energetic, but clever. Doc From news at computercollector.com Tue Jan 24 00:17:33 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:17:33 -0500 Subject: As promised -- updated museums list Message-ID: <009a01c620ad$dd279e30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Please check out the new "Places / Events" link in the Resources section of the newsletter's web site at http://news.computercollector.com ... There are currently 32 places listed. If I missed any significant ones, please email me privately / off-list. Thanks. - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From v.slyngstad at verizon.net Tue Jan 24 00:22:01 2006 From: v.slyngstad at verizon.net (Vince Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 22:22:01 -0800 Subject: 6RS20SP4B4 datasheet online (LT33 teletype) Message-ID: <013801c620ae$7d55a140$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Hi, this probably is beating a dead horse, but I finally acquired a datasheet for the 6RS20SP4B4, used in the LT33 teletype modifications. I have scanned it and made it available at http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/pdf/6rs20sp.pdf (The data sheet actually describes the 6RS20SP and 6RS5SP families.) Contrary to DEC documentation, it is a thyrector (not a thyractor, which would have an inductor in it). Vince From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jan 24 01:10:06 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 02:10:06 -0500 Subject: Quick Forth Question Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060124014934.04e2f978@mail.30below.com> Dudez & Dudettez: I'm trying to get some SnapForth ROMs running for the Panasonic HHC 'puter - and I'm having a bit'o'difficulty, mainly as I know... ummm... "squat" about Forth. ;^> I've gotten the ROMs to be able to start SnapForth, ask for a filename, create the filename & filespace (about 1K of RAM goes "buh-bye" for every filename I make... ;-) but no matter what I type, all I get is "Can't Find xxxxx" where xxxxx seems to be any durned thing I type. It can't seem to make new words, and every simple "Hello World" type proggie I've found on the net makes *no* sense to the 'puter. It looks like it has a max. of 4-character words... duh, waitaminit... lemme check the ROMs again... *maybe* 5-character words, as it looks like the last character of the word is OR'ed with $80... It looks like it's got quite a few words, looking at the ROMs in ASCII - I found VARIA, CONST, STRIN, CVECT, JUMP.... I could provide a clip of the ROM word table if it would help... I've tried: 100 LLL ! [[ To try to store the variable 100 in LLL ]] 100 VAR DORK 100 VARI DORK 100 VARIA DORK 100 VARIABLE DORK [[ To try to store the variable 100 in DORK ]] 100 CONS BURP 100 CONST BURP [[ To try to make BURP a constant of 100 ]] I've also tried: .S DROP ." Hello World" and other things I'd seen in various webpages thanks to Google. Anyone got any other idears for me? Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Jan 24 01:15:21 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 08:15:21 +0100 Subject: QX10 graphics board Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF263D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > Tony Duell wrote: > > And the board basically worked. The display at boot-up was sane. > Suspecting a RAM problem, I put in a complete new set of > 4164s -- no change. Hmmm, sounds like swapping to me ... ;-) - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From sastevens at earthlink.net Sun Jan 22 08:53:15 2006 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 09:53:15 -0500 Subject: Microsoft doesn't like ClassicCmp? In-Reply-To: <43D32ABF.7010303@atarimuseum.com> References: <43D32ABF.7010303@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20060122095315.080c291f.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 01:48:31 -0500 "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > Is this surprising to anyone? Given that usenet is now maintained by > an itty bitty little firm, anyone heard of Google? The fact that > Google is now in the crosshairs just as Netscape Navigator was 10 years > ago and Microsoft is attempting its own MS version of Google, so... > Usenet is _hoarded_ by Google, not maintained. The idea of Usenet being 'maintained' by one corporate entity goes against all the principles of Usenet. From rca72461 at bigpond.net.au Mon Jan 23 07:49:31 2006 From: rca72461 at bigpond.net.au (Richard Caruana) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 00:49:31 +1100 Subject: Rescued: HP85, HP86B, 912x drives - score! Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20060124004839.00a3e840@mail.bigpond.com> Did you ever have any luck with those old HP-85's you found ? Richard Caruana Australia Just Curious From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 23 18:14:35 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:14:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was the first color portable? In-Reply-To: <20060122132031.A49212@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20060124001435.90588.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> to qualify, it would have to be mass produced, not just some kludge ;). You know what I mean. In reality though, the SX-64 may have predated the TIPPC. They came out the same year, but according to old-computers.com, the release date was 11/83, and who knows if it could have been had in color at that point (there was a mono version). Don't know don't know. I'll have to do more research... --- Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 21 Jan 2006, Chris M wrote: > > I FINALLY got my TI portable professional in the > mail > > today. Nearly 50 lbs oi. Did anything sporting a > color > > crt predate this unit? Whos going to help me > retrofit > > a more modern and snappy tube? > > I'd strongly recommend to NEVER ask "FIRST?"! > The Commodore SX64 was one of the first TO BE MASS > PRODUCED. > > But there were MANY before that. > The Elcompco (Model V?) was built into a Halliburton > attache case (like > the drug dealers use), and had provision for > connecting the viewfinder > from a TV camera for use as a portable display. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 23 18:17:36 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:17:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: the Epson QX-10 in general was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060124001736.56615.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> was the graphics card standard equipment? My guess is no. I do have one, but don't feel like excavating at the moment. And it does have the Titan 8088 board...I'm told. It was a gift :). Anyone got software for it? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jan 24 01:26:31 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2006 23:26:31 -0800 Subject: SGI Tech Info mirror... Message-ID: <200601232326.31439.lbickley@bickleywest.com> For some time, what I consider the best SGI Tech Resource site on the web had no mirror. Over the years I have referenced the site for SGI tech info, benchmark info, drivers, etc. It contains literally hundreds of MB of data. So Ian Mapleson (the site's owner) and I have worked together to create a U.S. mirror at: http://vintagecomputers.info/ Sponsored and paid for entirely by my little company ;-) Enjoy!!! Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jan 24 01:38:12 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 02:38:12 -0500 Subject: what was the first color portable? In-Reply-To: <20060124001435.90588.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060122132031.A49212@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060124023632.04a5ca80@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chris M may have mentioned these words: >to qualify, it would have to be mass produced, not >just some kludge ;). So my Etch-a-Sketch with color gels and a handmade label that says "Vectrex PSP" (for PlayStation Prehistoric! ;-) doesn't count??? Killjoy... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From josefcub at gmail.com Tue Jan 24 01:58:24 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:58:24 -0600 Subject: Quick Forth Question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060124014934.04e2f978@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060124014934.04e2f978@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920601232358t7d2b6ad4v62e9f48ebb238376@mail.gmail.com> How about simple arithmatic? 1 1 + would suffice, just to see if it'd return 'OK', or the same error... On 1/24/06, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Dudez & Dudettez: > Anyone got any other idears for me? > > Thanks, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan > SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... > zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" > > -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Jan 24 01:58:40 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 08:58:40 +0100 Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <20060120142934.S82017@shell.lmi.net> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <5.1.0.14.2.20060120165222.03b61268@mail.30below.com> <20060120142934.S82017@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1138089520.27953.19.camel@fortran.babel> On Fri, 2006-01-20 at 14:29 -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > P.S. Oh, and ROT13 1/2 of each type of media, just for giggles... > > Would the NSA be able to decode ROT13? They'd need to subpoena the key. :) -toresbe From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 24 02:11:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 00:11:16 -0800 Subject: Quick Forth Question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060124014934.04e2f978@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060124014934.04e2f978@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200601240011160356.222C78DD@10.0.0.252> On 1/24/2006 at 2:10 AM Roger Merchberger wrote: >I'm trying to get some SnapForth ROMs running for the Panasonic HHC 'puter >- and I'm having a bit'o'difficulty, mainly as I know... ummm... "squat" >about Forth. ;^ Wasn't SNAP the builtin language for the HHC? Are these ROMs supposed to translate Forth to SNAP? Most of the HHC's I've ever seen had applications ROMs for things like amortization and depreciation. I think there was also a Microsoft BASIC ROM. Cheers, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jan 24 02:54:26 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 08:54:26 -0000 (GMT) Subject: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: References: <43D4D007.5090700@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jan 23, 6 12:45:59 pm Message-ID: <59754.195.212.29.75.1138092866.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> Heh. Simple once you see how it's done... I seem to recall that the QX10 had more video memory as an option you could buy - I read a review of the upgrade in Personal Computer World around that time. If I ever find that copy I'll try and scan the article. Gordon. From jhoger at pobox.com Tue Jan 24 03:04:30 2006 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:04:30 -0800 Subject: Quick Forth Question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060124014934.04e2f978@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060124014934.04e2f978@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <1138093470.32376.134.camel@aragorn> On Tue, 2006-01-24 at 02:10 -0500, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Dudez & Dudettez: > > I'm trying to get some SnapForth ROMs running for the Panasonic HHC 'puter > - and I'm having a bit'o'difficulty, mainly as I know... ummm... "squat" > about Forth. ;^> > > I've gotten the ROMs to be able to start SnapForth, ask for a filename, > create the filename & filespace (about 1K of RAM goes "buh-bye" for every > filename I make... ;-) but no matter what I type, all I get is "Can't Find > xxxxx" where xxxxx seems to be any durned thing I type. > > It can't seem to make new words, and every simple "Hello World" type > proggie I've found on the net makes *no* sense to the 'puter. > That's odd. Usually ." Hello, world." words on all forths. Keep in mind you do need the space between ." and the first letter of the string, since ." is a word (a "parsing" word since it reads ahead in the stream till the ending ") > It looks like it has a max. of 4-character words... duh, waitaminit... > lemme check the ROMs again... *maybe* 5-character words, as it looks like > the last character of the word is OR'ed with $80... It looks like it's got > quite a few words, looking at the ROMs in ASCII - I found VARIA, CONST, > STRIN, CVECT, JUMP.... > The way old Forths worked was that they saved space by matching the first 3 characters of the name and the length. So VARIABLE != VARIANT since the lengths are different. Maybe yours does have 5 character words. > I could provide a clip of the ROM word table if it would help... > Might help. Sometimes you can also type WORDS at the command prompt and see all the words. > I've tried: > > 100 LLL ! > [[ To try to store the variable 100 in LLL ]] You mean try to store the value 100 in the variable LLL. Well, first you need to create the variable: VARIABLE LLL Then you store a value in it: 100 LLL ! > 100 VAR DORK > 100 VARI DORK > 100 VARIA DORK > 100 VARIABLE DORK Type the whole word. Are you trying to make a variable or a constant? VARIABLE DORK 100 DORK ! DORK @ . or... 100 CONSTANT DORK DORK . Newer Forths have a word called VALUE which is close to the semantics you made up for VARIABLE. Also, you can just use CREATE as so: CREATE DORK > [[ To try to store the variable 100 in DORK ]] > 100 CONS BURP > 100 CONST BURP > [[ To try to make BURP a constant of 100 ]] > the word is CONSTANT > I've also tried: > > .S This word prints out the contents of the stack. If you put something on there first, it should print something. 1 2 3 4 5 .S > DROP Don't do this unless you have something on the stack to drop. Actually, try it it should give you an error if there's nothing on the stack. > ." Hello World" > That should work in most Forths. > and other things I'd seen in various webpages thanks to Google. > > Anyone got any other idears for me? Try to do some arithmetic ala 100 2 * . Next step is a simple word like SQUARE : SQUARE DUP * ; 5 SQUARE . -- John. From Useddec at aol.com Tue Jan 24 04:53:15 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 05:53:15 EST Subject: AOHell non-sent and lost mail.... oppps! Message-ID: <2d9.144fe7b.3107611b@aol.com> My AOL (which I will be dumping later this year) has lost a lot of my incoming mail, and not sent all of my outgoing mail. I apologize for this inconvenience, and if you have not heard from me regarding older DEC parts, please try to contact me. Thanks, Paul 217-586-5361 10am-8pm From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 24 07:13:21 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 07:13:21 -0600 Subject: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF263D@OVL-EXBE01.oceven lo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF263D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060124071158.0505b948@mail> At 01:15 AM 1/24/2006, Gooijen, Henk wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >> And the board basically worked. The display at boot-up was sane. >> Suspecting a RAM problem, I put in a complete new set of >> 4164s -- no change. > >Hmmm, sounds like swapping to me ... ;-) I know, I know! And I was a bit disappointed that he didn't grind down the top of the failed chip to do a proper repair. :-) Of course, he can regain the extra point by giving an explanation of why swapping a chip is allowed under the proper interpretation of the official repair rules. - John From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue Jan 24 07:28:49 2006 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 08:28:49 -0500 Subject: Quick Forth Question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060124014934.04e2f978@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060124014934.04e2f978@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <594EB13B-3696-415D-B50D-A911383D7C74@xlisper.mv.com> Well, you seem to be doing better than I am. All I can get is the HHC to display "SnapFORTH" when I select it from the menu. No prompt for filename and all I can do at that point is press "clear" to get back to the main menu. It looks like I may have inserted the ROMs in the wrong order when I put them back into the external carrier after downloading the contents to send to you. Ugh! I thought I had been careful about that too! On Jan 24, 2006, at 2:10 AM, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Dudez & Dudettez: > > I'm trying to get some SnapForth ROMs running for the Panasonic HHC > 'puter - and I'm having a bit'o'difficulty, mainly as I know... > ummm... "squat" about Forth. ;^> > > I've gotten the ROMs to be able to start SnapForth, ask for a > filename, create the filename & filespace (about 1K of RAM goes > "buh-bye" for every filename I make... ;-) but no matter what I > type, all I get is "Can't Find xxxxx" where xxxxx seems to be any > durned thing I type. > > It can't seem to make new words, and every simple "Hello World" > type proggie I've found on the net makes *no* sense to the 'puter. > > It looks like it has a max. of 4-character words... duh, > waitaminit... lemme check the ROMs again... *maybe* 5-character > words, as it looks like the last character of the word is OR'ed > with $80... It looks like it's got quite a few words, looking at > the ROMs in ASCII - I found VARIA, CONST, STRIN, CVECT, JUMP.... > > I could provide a clip of the ROM word table if it would help... > > I've tried: > > 100 LLL ! > [[ To try to store the variable 100 in LLL ]] > 100 VAR DORK > 100 VARI DORK > 100 VARIA DORK > 100 VARIABLE DORK > [[ To try to store the variable 100 in DORK ]] > 100 CONS BURP > 100 CONST BURP > [[ To try to make BURP a constant of 100 ]] > > I've also tried: > > .S > DROP > ." Hello World" > > and other things I'd seen in various webpages thanks to Google. > > Anyone got any other idears for me? > > Thanks, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan > SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... > zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 24 07:22:40 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 07:22:40 -0600 Subject: Microsoft doesn't like ClassicCmp? In-Reply-To: <20060122095315.080c291f.sastevens@earthlink.net> References: <43D32ABF.7010303@atarimuseum.com> <20060122095315.080c291f.sastevens@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060124071453.04f14518@mail> At 08:53 AM 1/22/2006, Scott Stevens wrote: >Usenet is _hoarded_ by Google, not maintained. >The idea of Usenet being 'maintained' by one corporate entity >goes against all the principles of Usenet. Early Usenet was not without its debates, especially over which set of greybeards would determine which groups were recognized by major hosts and how those groups were named. Google isn't "hoarding" Usenet. They're just one of the very few companies who treat it as valuable. For that matter, given the effort it took for them to find the ancient archives that they did preserve, apparently many other people did not value those old postings (in toto) as a very few of us do today. Most other companies (such as ISPs) no longer value it. You might as well complain about why DEC and Sun and your local university aren't supporting a server and a feed. Gone are the days when you can expect your ISP to provide a news feed and server. But you're still free to set up your own feed and server, no? If you can find someone to peer it to you. Long gone are the days when one person could spend a few hours and read everything that was posted to every group on Usenet that day. More apropo Entourage, it seems like a reasonably nice Mac version of Outlook. It wouldn't surprise me if it was slightly different in obscure header handling. I've grown despondent about the hope of finding a decent replacement for Eudora/Win. The company seems to be going down the tubes in quality and support. I want something that'll handle a gig or two of mailboxes without hiccup. - John From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue Jan 24 07:43:37 2006 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 08:43:37 -0500 Subject: Quick Forth Question In-Reply-To: <594EB13B-3696-415D-B50D-A911383D7C74@xlisper.mv.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060124014934.04e2f978@mail.30below.com> <594EB13B-3696-415D-B50D-A911383D7C74@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <5BBCB9C2-F65D-4027-86BC-55D08691CA6E@xlisper.mv.com> Okay, I figured out the immediate problem. Three of the pins on one of the EPROMs have broken off. One was hanging by a thread and fell off when I inspected it. I see no evidence that the pins remain in the sockets so I guess they must have fallen off when I removed the EPROMs to read them in my EPROM programmer. I suppose this suggests that they may have fallen off *before* I read them and that is why your SnapFORTH ROMs don't work. I don't think that's the case though because I'm sure I would have noticed that. Do EPROM (or chip pins in general) get more brittle as they get older? I've never had this type of problem before. These are gold colored (and plated I assume) pins if that makes a difference. On Jan 24, 2006, at 8:28 AM, David Betz wrote: > Well, you seem to be doing better than I am. All I can get is the > HHC to display "SnapFORTH" when I select it from the menu. No > prompt for filename and all I can do at that point is press "clear" > to get back to the main menu. It looks like I may have inserted the > ROMs in the wrong order when I put them back into the external > carrier after downloading the contents to send to you. Ugh! I > thought I had been careful about that too! > > On Jan 24, 2006, at 2:10 AM, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >> Dudez & Dudettez: >> >> I'm trying to get some SnapForth ROMs running for the Panasonic >> HHC 'puter - and I'm having a bit'o'difficulty, mainly as I >> know... ummm... "squat" about Forth. ;^> >> >> I've gotten the ROMs to be able to start SnapForth, ask for a >> filename, create the filename & filespace (about 1K of RAM goes >> "buh-bye" for every filename I make... ;-) but no matter what I >> type, all I get is "Can't Find xxxxx" where xxxxx seems to be any >> durned thing I type. >> >> It can't seem to make new words, and every simple "Hello World" >> type proggie I've found on the net makes *no* sense to the 'puter. >> >> It looks like it has a max. of 4-character words... duh, >> waitaminit... lemme check the ROMs again... *maybe* 5-character >> words, as it looks like the last character of the word is OR'ed >> with $80... It looks like it's got quite a few words, looking at >> the ROMs in ASCII - I found VARIA, CONST, STRIN, CVECT, JUMP.... >> >> I could provide a clip of the ROM word table if it would help... >> >> I've tried: >> >> 100 LLL ! >> [[ To try to store the variable 100 in LLL ]] >> 100 VAR DORK >> 100 VARI DORK >> 100 VARIA DORK >> 100 VARIABLE DORK >> [[ To try to store the variable 100 in DORK ]] >> 100 CONS BURP >> 100 CONST BURP >> [[ To try to make BURP a constant of 100 ]] >> >> I've also tried: >> >> .S >> DROP >> ." Hello World" >> >> and other things I'd seen in various webpages thanks to Google. >> >> Anyone got any other idears for me? >> >> Thanks, >> Roger "Merch" Merchberger >> >> -- >> Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan >> SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... >> zmerch at 30below.com | ...in >> oxymoron!" >> > From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jan 24 07:57:10 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 08:57:10 -0500 Subject: Quick Forth Question In-Reply-To: <5BBCB9C2-F65D-4027-86BC-55D08691CA6E@xlisper.mv.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060124014934.04e2f978@mail.30below.com> <594EB13B-3696-415D-B50D-A911383D7C74@xlisper.mv.com> <5BBCB9C2-F65D-4027-86BC-55D08691CA6E@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <43D63236.8030001@gmail.com> David Betz wrote: > Okay, I figured out the immediate problem. Three of the pins on one of > the EPROMs have broken off. One was hanging by a thread and fell off > when I inspected it. I see no evidence that the pins remain in the > sockets so I guess they must have fallen off when I removed the EPROMs > to read them in my EPROM programmer. I suppose this suggests that they > may have fallen off *before* I read them and that is why your SnapFORTH > ROMs don't work. I don't think that's the case though because I'm sure > I would have noticed that. Do EPROM (or chip pins in general) get more > brittle as they get older? I've never had this type of problem before. > These are gold colored (and plated I assume) pins if that makes a > difference. They definitely get brittle if repeatedly bent. Peace... Sridhar From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue Jan 24 08:03:11 2006 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:03:11 -0500 Subject: Quick Forth Question In-Reply-To: <43D63236.8030001@gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060124014934.04e2f978@mail.30below.com> <594EB13B-3696-415D-B50D-A911383D7C74@xlisper.mv.com> <5BBCB9C2-F65D-4027-86BC-55D08691CA6E@xlisper.mv.com> <43D63236.8030001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0CFF5CED-9277-4F97-849C-3D3E3CC757DA@xlisper.mv.com> Yes, but these weren't bent (at least by me). They plug into normal IC sockets in a carrier module that plugs into the side of the HHC. They aren't the ones that go inside and must have their pins wrapped around a plastic carrier. There was no evidence of repeated bending on any of the pins. On Jan 24, 2006, at 8:57 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > David Betz wrote: >> Okay, I figured out the immediate problem. Three of the pins on >> one of the EPROMs have broken off. One was hanging by a thread >> and fell off when I inspected it. I see no evidence that the pins >> remain in the sockets so I guess they must have fallen off when I >> removed the EPROMs to read them in my EPROM programmer. I suppose >> this suggests that they may have fallen off *before* I read them >> and that is why your SnapFORTH ROMs don't work. I don't think >> that's the case though because I'm sure I would have noticed >> that. Do EPROM (or chip pins in general) get more brittle as they >> get older? I've never had this type of problem before. These are >> gold colored (and plated I assume) pins if that makes a difference. > > They definitely get brittle if repeatedly bent. > > Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jan 24 08:20:38 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:20:38 -0500 Subject: Quick Forth Question In-Reply-To: <0CFF5CED-9277-4F97-849C-3D3E3CC757DA@xlisper.mv.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060124014934.04e2f978@mail.30below.com> <594EB13B-3696-415D-B50D-A911383D7C74@xlisper.mv.com> <5BBCB9C2-F65D-4027-86BC-55D08691CA6E@xlisper.mv.com> <43D63236.8030001@gmail.com> <0CFF5CED-9277-4F97-849C-3D3E3CC757DA@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <43D637B6.4040708@gmail.com> David Betz wrote: > Yes, but these weren't bent (at least by me). They plug into normal IC > sockets in a carrier module that plugs into the side of the HHC. They > aren't the ones that go inside and must have their pins wrapped around > a plastic carrier. There was no evidence of repeated bending on any of > the pins. Hmmmm. Heat could do it, but I don't know of any reason why an EPROM would get hot under any reasonable circumstances. Peace... Sridhar > On Jan 24, 2006, at 8:57 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> David Betz wrote: >> >>> Okay, I figured out the immediate problem. Three of the pins on one >>> of the EPROMs have broken off. One was hanging by a thread and fell >>> off when I inspected it. I see no evidence that the pins remain in >>> the sockets so I guess they must have fallen off when I removed the >>> EPROMs to read them in my EPROM programmer. I suppose this suggests >>> that they may have fallen off *before* I read them and that is why >>> your SnapFORTH ROMs don't work. I don't think that's the case >>> though because I'm sure I would have noticed that. Do EPROM (or >>> chip pins in general) get more brittle as they get older? I've >>> never had this type of problem before. These are gold colored (and >>> plated I assume) pins if that makes a difference. >> >> >> They definitely get brittle if repeatedly bent. >> >> Peace... Sridhar > > > From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jan 24 08:32:18 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:32:18 -0500 Subject: OT: Eudora (was: Microsoft doesn't like ClassicCmp? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060124071453.04f14518@mail> References: <20060122095315.080c291f.sastevens@earthlink.net> <43D32ABF.7010303@atarimuseum.com> <20060122095315.080c291f.sastevens@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060124092339.01bee518@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that John Foust may have mentioned these words: >At 08:53 AM 1/22/2006, Scott Stevens wrote: > >Usenet is _hoarded_ by Google, not maintained. > >The idea of Usenet being 'maintained' by one corporate entity > >goes against all the principles of Usenet. Except the only reason it's being maintained by one corporate entity is because *no* other corporate entities give a rip. >More apropo Entourage, it seems like a reasonably nice Mac version >of Outlook. It wouldn't surprise me if it was slightly different >in obscure header handling. I've grown despondent about the hope of >finding a decent replacement for Eudora/Win. Why not Eudora/Mac? http://www.eudora.com/download/ They still support 6.1 for Mac Classic, and 6.2.3 is available for OSX... I still use Eudora 5, which is at least halfway to being ontopic... ;-) Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jan 24 10:34:17 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 10:34:17 Subject: Rescued: HP85, HP86B, 912x drives - score! In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20060124004839.00a3e840@mail.bigpond.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060124103417.11efed30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Yes. At 12:49 AM 1/24/06 +1100, you wrote: >Did you ever have any luck with those old HP-85's you found ? > >Richard Caruana > >Australia > >Just Curious > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jan 24 10:31:59 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 10:31:59 Subject: OT: Eudora (was: Microsoft doesn't like ClassicCmp? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060124092339.01bee518@mail.30below.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060124071453.04f14518@mail> <20060122095315.080c291f.sastevens@earthlink.net> <43D32ABF.7010303@atarimuseum.com> <20060122095315.080c291f.sastevens@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060124103159.11efbc9e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:32 AM 1/24/06 -0500, Roger "Merch" Merchberger wrote: >Rumor has it that John Foust may have mentioned these words: >>At 08:53 AM 1/22/2006, Scott Stevens wrote: >> >Usenet is _hoarded_ by Google, not maintained. >> >The idea of Usenet being 'maintained' by one corporate entity >> >goes against all the principles of Usenet. > >Except the only reason it's being maintained by one corporate entity is >because *no* other corporate entities give a rip. > >>More apropo Entourage, it seems like a reasonably nice Mac version >>of Outlook. It wouldn't surprise me if it was slightly different >>in obscure header handling. I've grown despondent about the hope of >>finding a decent replacement for Eudora/Win. > >Why not Eudora/Mac? > >http://www.eudora.com/download/ > >They still support 6.1 for Mac Classic, and 6.2.3 is available for OSX... > >I still use Eudora 5, which is at least halfway to being ontopic... Hell, I'm still using Eudora 3.0. I tried the newer versions but liked the way 3.0 worked better. Joe >;-) > >Hope this helps, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger > >-- >Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me >zmerch at 30below.com. | >SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jan 24 10:59:19 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 10:59:19 Subject: Quick Forth Question In-Reply-To: <5BBCB9C2-F65D-4027-86BC-55D08691CA6E@xlisper.mv.com> References: <594EB13B-3696-415D-B50D-A911383D7C74@xlisper.mv.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060124014934.04e2f978@mail.30below.com> <594EB13B-3696-415D-B50D-A911383D7C74@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060124105919.4d2f399a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:43 AM 1/24/06 -0500, you wrote: >Okay, I figured out the immediate problem. Three of the pins on one >of the EPROMs have broken off. One was hanging by a thread and fell >off when I inspected it. I see no evidence that the pins remain in >the sockets so I guess they must have fallen off when I removed the >EPROMs to read them in my EPROM programmer. I suppose this suggests >that they may have fallen off *before* I read them and that is why >your SnapFORTH ROMs don't work. I don't think that's the case though >because I'm sure I would have noticed that. Do EPROM (or chip pins in >general) get more brittle as they get older? Absolutely!!! Especially if the sockets are made of different material than the pins OR if they've been stored in anything less than bone-dry storage. The two different materials set up an electochemical reaction just like a battery and the more active material is actually consumed (same as a battery). Water (humity) and trace amounts of dirt, dust, etc forms the electrolyte. Scott Mueller's book Upgrading and Repairing PCs actually has a good description of this. Scott says to only use gold pins in gold sockets and tin plated pins in tin plated sockets. I don't think that's absolutely necessary as long as the system is kept in a DRY area and you only expect a few years of service out of it (ala modern PCs). If I really wanted maximum reliability and life then I would do as he suggest. OTOH if I wanted MAXIMUM reliabilty and life then I'd solder everything together but that would adversely affect the repairability of the system. This is one of the most compelling resons NOT to use IC sockets. I've never had this type >of problem before. These are gold colored (and plated I assume) Of course. What happens is that gold is very porous and the metal under the gold will be eaten away and leave the film of gold holding everything together. At least until you touch it or try to remove it from the socket and then everything falls apart. FWIW I've fixed irreplacable ICs by putting them in a wire wrap IC socket and then soldering the nubs of the leads to the socket and then plugging the socket and IC back into the circuit. You'll be soldering right up against the body of the IC so you have to be carefull not to over heat it. Clean the IC lgs/nubs and socket connectors good then use low temperature solder and a good tempature controlled soldering iron. I use wire wrap sockets with machined sockets because the legs are much stiffer then stamped out sockets and I can plug them into the original IC socket on the circuit board. Joe pins >if that makes a difference. > >On Jan 24, 2006, at 8:28 AM, David Betz wrote: > >> Well, you seem to be doing better than I am. All I can get is the >> HHC to display "SnapFORTH" when I select it from the menu. No >> prompt for filename and all I can do at that point is press "clear" >> to get back to the main menu. It looks like I may have inserted the >> ROMs in the wrong order when I put them back into the external >> carrier after downloading the contents to send to you. Ugh! I >> thought I had been careful about that too! >> >> On Jan 24, 2006, at 2:10 AM, Roger Merchberger wrote: >> >>> Dudez & Dudettez: >>> >>> I'm trying to get some SnapForth ROMs running for the Panasonic >>> HHC 'puter - and I'm having a bit'o'difficulty, mainly as I >>> know... ummm... "squat" about Forth. ;^> >>> >>> I've gotten the ROMs to be able to start SnapForth, ask for a >>> filename, create the filename & filespace (about 1K of RAM goes >>> "buh-bye" for every filename I make... ;-) but no matter what I >>> type, all I get is "Can't Find xxxxx" where xxxxx seems to be any >>> durned thing I type. >>> >>> It can't seem to make new words, and every simple "Hello World" >>> type proggie I've found on the net makes *no* sense to the 'puter. >>> >>> It looks like it has a max. of 4-character words... duh, >>> waitaminit... lemme check the ROMs again... *maybe* 5-character >>> words, as it looks like the last character of the word is OR'ed >>> with $80... It looks like it's got quite a few words, looking at >>> the ROMs in ASCII - I found VARIA, CONST, STRIN, CVECT, JUMP.... >>> >>> I could provide a clip of the ROM word table if it would help... >>> >>> I've tried: >>> >>> 100 LLL ! >>> [[ To try to store the variable 100 in LLL ]] >>> 100 VAR DORK >>> 100 VARI DORK >>> 100 VARIA DORK >>> 100 VARIABLE DORK >>> [[ To try to store the variable 100 in DORK ]] >>> 100 CONS BURP >>> 100 CONST BURP >>> [[ To try to make BURP a constant of 100 ]] >>> >>> I've also tried: >>> >>> .S >>> DROP >>> ." Hello World" >>> >>> and other things I'd seen in various webpages thanks to Google. >>> >>> Anyone got any other idears for me? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Roger "Merch" Merchberger >>> >>> -- >>> Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan >>> SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... >>> zmerch at 30below.com | ...in >>> oxymoron!" >>> >> > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jan 24 10:16:16 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 08:16:16 -0800 Subject: Was: Quick Forth Question - New Subject: Chip Repair In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060124105919.4d2f399a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <594EB13B-3696-415D-B50D-A911383D7C74@xlisper.mv.com> <3.0.6.16.20060124105919.4d2f399a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200601240816.16885.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 24 January 2006 02:59, Joe R. wrote: --snip-- > FWIW I've fixed irreplacable ICs by putting them in a wire wrap IC > socket and then soldering the nubs of the leads to the socket and then > plugging the socket and IC back into the circuit. You'll be soldering right > up against the body of the IC so you have to be carefull not to over heat > it. Clean the IC lgs/nubs and socket connectors good then use low > temperature solder and a good tempature controlled soldering iron. I use > wire wrap sockets with machined sockets because the legs are much stiffer > then stamped out sockets and I can plug them into the original IC socket on > the circuit board. This is good advice - I've also had good success with this procedure. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jan 24 11:54:21 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:54:21 -0000 Subject: Microsoft doesn't like ClassicCmp? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060124071453.04f14518@mail> Message-ID: <000b01c6210f$36202460$5b01a8c0@pc1> John Foust wrote: > Most other companies (such as ISPs) no longer value it. > You might as well complain about why DEC and Sun and your > local university aren't supporting a server and a feed. I'm willing to cut DEC some slack on this one these days :-) HP, on the other hand, have no excuse :-) Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From Tim at Rikers.org Tue Jan 24 12:15:51 2006 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 11:15:51 -0700 Subject: A little OT: Google In-Reply-To: <1138089520.27953.19.camel@fortran.babel> References: <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <200601201247100507.10472207@10.0.0.252> <5.1.0.14.2.20060120165222.03b61268@mail.30below.com> <20060120142934.S82017@shell.lmi.net> <1138089520.27953.19.camel@fortran.babel> Message-ID: <43D66ED7.3020204@Rikers.org> Tore S Bekkedal wrote: > On Fri, 2006-01-20 at 14:29 -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, Roger Merchberger wrote: >> >>>P.S. Oh, and ROT13 1/2 of each type of media, just for giggles... >> >>Would the NSA be able to decode ROT13? > > They'd need to subpoena the key. :) Wouldn't they then be guilty of DMCA violations? -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Jan 24 12:38:27 2006 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:38:27 -0500 Subject: Brittle chip pins Message-ID: At 08:43 AM 1/24/06 -0500, you wrote: >Okay, I figured out the immediate problem. Three of the pins on one >of the EPROMs have broken off. One was hanging by a thread and fell >off when I inspected it. I see no evidence that the pins remain in >the sockets so I guess they must have fallen off when I removed the >EPROMs to read them in my EPROM programmer. I suppose this suggests >that they may have fallen off *before* I read them and that is why >your SnapFORTH ROMs don't work. I don't think that's the case though >because I'm sure I would have noticed that. Do EPROM (or chip pins in >general) get more brittle as they get older? They were plenty brittle to begin with! See for example the graph labeled "Number of pins remaining vs number of socket insertions" in the WOM data sheet: http://academics.vmi.edu/ee_js/Research/IC_Datasheets/digital_cmos/Write%20Only%20Memory.pdf Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 24 12:31:16 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 18:31:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Homebuilt relay computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060123214552.4cafca84@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jan 23, 6 09:45:52 pm Message-ID: > >> I believe he did. It's a 32K static RAM. It's under "Features Of The > >> Sequencer Unit". > > > >That's cheating. He should have wired up 262144 relays :-) > > Wow! Think of the current spike when those all energized! And people > thought TTL was bad! But that could never happen. You would only write one byte at a time, so not more than 8 relays would switch at once. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 24 12:33:12 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 18:33:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: the Epson QX-10 in general was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <20060124001736.56615.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jan 23, 6 04:17:36 pm Message-ID: > > was the graphics card standard equipment? My guess is > no. I do have one, but don't feel like excavating at Yes it was stanadrd. There was no other video circuitry. The graphics board (I can look up the proper name for it in the manual if you want) is a daughterboard to the main board, mounted parallel to the main board in approximately the middle of it. It's not a board that goes in one of the expansion slots. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 24 12:36:53 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 18:36:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: <6350BED8-39AA-45B4-959D-B18A2F535098@kerberos.davies.net.au> from "Huw Davies" at Jan 24, 6 01:33:11 pm Message-ID: > I'd heard that toner was (could be?) carcinogenic. It's a well-known fact that research causes cancer in rats :-) More seriously, toner probably is carcinogenic simply because it's a fine powder. And like flour or fine sawdust, a cloud of toner could be explosive. Which to me means you avoid making clouds of the stuff. But when I've taken toner cartridges apart, you seem to get less loose toner around than when you clean up an old laser printer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 24 12:37:43 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 18:37:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: <20060123200804.Q6028@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 23, 6 08:10:53 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, Huw Davies wrote: > > I'd heard that toner was (could be?) carcinogenic. > > We had a "lab manager" at the college for years who refused to > refill toner cartridges, "because if you ever get any on you or your > clothes, it is impossible to wash off!" Nothing, including > demonstrations would convince her otherwise. I do love 'scientists' who don't follow even the most basic part of the scientific method... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 24 12:43:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 18:43:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: <00fa01c6209e$3990f280$72781941@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Jan 23, 6 11:25:36 pm Message-ID: > Any fine particles like those are very bad for you if you breath them in. Be > careful cleaning up toner spills and don't use a normal vacuum. I guess it's time to re-tell the story of the toner and the toilet.... I was halping a friend fix his laserprinter (Canon SX engine, if it matters), and we took the toner cartridge apart for some reason or other. One part of said cartridge collects the waste toner, and we decided to empty that out [1]. Undoing a couple of screws released the top of that container, and said friend decided to dump the contents into the toilet. At this point we discovered that toner floats on water, and it would not flush away. FOrtunately one of us though to add some washing-up liguid (or other detergent), which got the 2 to mix. It also produced the most amazing black foam which did eventually flush away.... [1] I wonder if the waster toner container being too full could be the cause of the original problem (streaky printing). Practical experience has shown that in some small phootcopiers you get streaky printing after so many thousand pages and you're supposed to replace the drum unit. Emptying out the waste toner will clear up the problem (and the drum unit will last at least 4 such emptyings, a significant cost saving...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 24 12:50:02 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 18:50:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Quick Forth Question In-Reply-To: <1138093470.32376.134.camel@aragorn> from "John R. Hogerhuis" at Jan 24, 6 01:04:30 am Message-ID: > That's odd. > > Usually ." Hello, world." words on all forths. Watch out. In some Forths, ." can only be used inside a colon definition, not in the imput like (you get some very odd effects, possibly even a crash if you try). I used to know the reason for this, something about it needing to allocate space for the string. At least one Forth used " rather than ." too. > > Keep in mind you do need the space between ." and the first letter of > the string, since ." is a word (a "parsing" word since it reads ahead in > the stream till the ending ") But there does not need to be a space before the closing quote (if there is one, it will be output as part of the string) > Might help. Sometimes you can also type WORDS at the command prompt and > see all the words. VLIST (stands for Vocabulary List) is another word some FORTHs use for this. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 24 13:02:42 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:02:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060124071158.0505b948@mail> from "John Foust" at Jan 24, 6 07:13:21 am Message-ID: > > At 01:15 AM 1/24/2006, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > >> Tony Duell wrote: > >> And the board basically worked. The display at boot-up was sane. > >> Suspecting a RAM problem, I put in a complete new set of > >> 4164s -- no change. > > > >Hmmm, sounds like swapping to me ... ;-) > > I know, I know! And I was a bit disappointed that he didn't grind > down the top of the failed chip to do a proper repair. :-) What failed chip? All the RAMs were good... > > Of course, he can regain the extra point by giving an explanation > of why swapping a chip is allowed under the proper interpretation > of the official repair rules. Err, when you know the replacement part is good, when you know the replacement part is directly equivalent to the old part, and when the old part cannot be repaired? -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 24 13:36:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 11:36:36 -0800 Subject: Homebuilt relay computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601241136360126.249FEFD6@10.0.0.252> On 1/24/2006 at 6:31 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >But that could never happen. You would only write one byte at a time, so >not more than 8 relays would switch at once. Let's think about this... Could you really make a memory cell with 1 relay per bit using standard relays? Latching relays, perhaps, but regular "make on coil current/break on no current" relays? Then there's the issue of addressing. 32KB would probably entail a 7x8x8 structure. I'd expect that being able to change the state of a bit might require an extra relay or two per bit, given an XY-select sort of structure. How about 4 relays per bit? Of course, we could implement memory as a recirculating shift register, which ought to be lots of fun to listen to... Cheers, Chuck From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jan 24 14:40:00 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:40:00 Subject: Microsoft doesn't like ClassicCmp? In-Reply-To: <000b01c6210f$36202460$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060124071453.04f14518@mail> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060124144000.78cfa9ce@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:54 PM 1/24/06 +0000, you wrote: >John Foust wrote: > >> Most other companies (such as ISPs) no longer value it. >> You might as well complain about why DEC and Sun and your >> local university aren't supporting a server and a feed. > >I'm willing to cut DEC some slack on this one these days :-) > >HP, on the other hand, have no excuse :-) Sure they do, Carly Fiorina dammed near bankrupted them! Joe > >Antonio > > >-- > >Antonio carlini >arcarlini at iee.org > From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jan 24 13:44:35 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:44:35 -0000 Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001401c6211e$9bc7b5d0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Tony Duell wrote: > Undoing a couple of screws released the top of that container, and > said friend decided to dump the contents into the toilet. At this > point we discovered that toner floats on water, and it would not > flush away. Just out of interest, what is the correct disposal method for waste toner? Admittedly the ML1510 on whose behalf I'm asking is not yet on topic, but at the rate I print, it may well have hit the ten year mark by the time I've refilled it a few more times and eventually fill the waste-toner-holder part of the cart! Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Jan 24 08:22:34 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:22:34 +0000 Subject: Quick Forth Question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:04:30 PST." <1138093470.32376.134.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: <200601241422.OAA17012@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, John R. Hogerhuis said: > On Tue, 2006-01-24 at 02:10 -0500, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > It can't seem to make new words, and every simple "Hello World" type > > proggie I've found on the net makes *no* sense to the 'puter. > > > > That's odd. > > Usually ." Hello, world." words on all forths. > ." is usually a compiling word and may not work in immediate mode. As someone else suggested try some simple arithmetic like 2 2 + . and see if it responds with: 4 ok Then perhaps try : hi ." Hello, world " ; to see if it will compile a new word - in this case called hi. If it responds "ok" then try typing: hi and you should get: Hello world ok -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 24 14:03:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:03:54 -0800 Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: <001401c6211e$9bc7b5d0$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <001401c6211e$9bc7b5d0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <200601241203540532.24B8EFDC@10.0.0.252> On 1/24/2006 at 7:44 PM a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: >Just out of interest, what is the correct disposal method for >waste toner? Admittedly the ML1510 on whose behalf I'm asking >is not yet on topic, but at the rate I print, it may well have >hit the ten year mark by the time I've refilled it a few more >times and eventually fill the waste-toner-holder part of the >cart! Bag in an airtight bag and dispose of in the normal solid waste stream. Toner is basically carbon, so it's not considered hazmat. At least that's what the folks at our local landfill say--and they're pretty picky. Cheers, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jan 24 14:22:27 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:22:27 +0000 Subject: Jittery LA36 Message-ID: <43D68C83.7060908@gjcp.net> Hi there, I've finally got the ribbons for my LA36, unjammed the pins in the printhead and it is printing. It's not quite right yet, though... The printhead often jitters backwards and forwards, sometimes several inches. When you hit "RETURN" it's obviously lost track of where the head is, and slams it into the left-hand stop, where it sits obstinately pressed against the spring. Cleaning up the photosensor bit on the interrupter wheel seemed to help a little. Gordon. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Jan 24 14:39:56 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:39:56 -0800 Subject: Jittery LA36 In-Reply-To: <43D68C83.7060908@gjcp.net> References: <43D68C83.7060908@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43D6909C.2020700@msm.umr.edu> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > Cleaning up the photosensor bit on the interrupter wheel seemed to > help a little. > how freely does the mechanism move on the carriage? sometimes this causes jitter, though not at rest. look at the power to the control circuit and the drivers to the servo motor and make sure it's not about to blow, and maybe has high ripple on it if the jitter is happening at rest. jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 24 14:53:24 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:53:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Microsoft doesn't like ClassicCmp? In-Reply-To: <20060122095315.080c291f.sastevens@earthlink.net> References: <43D32ABF.7010303@atarimuseum.com> <20060122095315.080c291f.sastevens@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20060124125242.P22601@shell.lmi.net> > The idea of Usenet being 'maintained' by one corporate entity > goes against all the principles of Usenet. "One basic notion underlying Usenet is that it is a cooperative." Having been on USENET for going on ten years, I disagree with this. The basic notion underlying USENET is the flame. -- Chuq Von Rospach From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jan 24 14:56:52 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:56:52 +0000 Subject: Jittery LA36 updated In-Reply-To: <43D6909C.2020700@msm.umr.edu> References: <43D68C83.7060908@gjcp.net> <43D6909C.2020700@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <43D69494.3090301@gjcp.net> jim stephens wrote: > how freely does the mechanism move on the carriage? sometimes this causes > jitter, though not at rest. Freely enough, with the power off obviously. There is a little resistance as the ribbon feeds, but not much. > look at the power to the control circuit and the drivers to the servo > motor and > make sure it's not about to blow, and maybe has high ripple on it if the > jitter > is happening at rest. It does happen occasionally. I haven't scoped the PSU rails yet but on the odd occasion that it does jitter at rest, it doesn't sound ripply. What I have found is that it seems to do it when the opto-interruptor is at certain positions. Sometimes it will print 1/4 of a line, skip a 1/4, print another 1/4 and skip the rest. I took the opto sensor assembly off and blew it out with an air duster. This didn't help. Gordon. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 24 14:58:02 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:58:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was the first color portable? In-Reply-To: <20060124001435.90588.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060124001435.90588.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060124125426.S22601@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Chris M wrote: > to qualify, it would have to be mass produced, not > just some kludge ;). You know what I mean. In reality What constitutes "mass produced"? Would the 1975 Popular Electronics Altair 8800 qualify as "mass produced"? From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Jan 24 14:58:31 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 21:58:31 +0100 Subject: RK07 questions - now RK611 questions Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22E2@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Tony Duell Verzonden: di 24-01-2006 01:10 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: RK07 questions - now RK611 questions > > You are correct, Tony, board swapping tricked me (this time)! And yet you persist in wanting to do it... > I think I can forget the RK07 drive for now, and concentrate on the RK611 > controller. First, I checked the flat cable from the controller M7904 (dri= > ve > interface) module to the home-made bulkhead. That flat cable is 100% OK. > The round cable from the bulkhead to the drive is NOS, and the label is > 70-12292-25, so I'm sure it is the RK06/RK07 drive cable, not the RL0x cabl= > e. Can you open the hood at one end of that cable (it will unclip fairly easilt, I think you undo the screws on the cable clamp first). An RK07 cable as virtually all the pins wired, an RL cable has a lot unwired. I have learnt not to assume anything when tracing faults.... And do stick a voltmeter on the +5V line. Bitter experience (again) has taught me that this is a the cause of a lot of obscure problems. Best to eliminated it now... > = > > Before pulling out all kind of equipment, I started with what a DEC enginee= > r > probably also would do: run the diagnostics! So, I loaded XXDP and ran > ZR6A??.??? which is the test "RK611 diskless controller diagnostic #1". OK... > Here is the output. > = > > .R ZR6A??.??? > ZR6AD0.BIN > RK611 DISKLESS DIAGNOSTIC: PART 1 CZR6AD0 > @ > ATTEMPTING TO CLEAR CS1 WITH A SUB CLEAR > BUS ADD INCORRECT > TEST ERROR > NUM PC > 000041 033024 > PREV EXPECT ACTUAL > VALUE VALVE VALVE > 013776 000200 100200 > = > > So, there is already a problem with the RK611 controller reported after the= > > diagnostic runs some 5 seconds! A few months ago I scanned a pile of XXDP > doc, but the ZR6A et al. was not amongst them :-( > I am not sure I have a spare RK611 controller board set (going to the attic= > k > after this e-mail), but can somebody tell me which board is likely to be su= > spected? Do you want my help or not? Because I sure am not going to help you to swap boards. What I can tell you is how to trace that fault. The diagnostic seems to be saying that the top bit (bit 15) of CSR1 could not be cleared. So, let's grab the prints (but not tonight, it's late...) and find CSR 1, find out what should set and clear bit 15, and see what's going on there. -tony This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jan 24 15:08:19 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:08:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Quick Forth Question Message-ID: <200601242108.NAA25164@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> That's odd. >> >> Usually ." Hello, world." words on all forths. > > >Watch out. In some Forths, ." can only be used inside a colon definition, >not in the imput like (you get some very odd effects, possibly even a >crash if you try). I used to know the reason for this, something about it >needing to allocate space for the string. > >At least one Forth used " rather than ." too. > >> >> Keep in mind you do need the space between ." and the first letter of >> the string, since ." is a word (a "parsing" word since it reads ahead in >> the stream till the ending ") > >But there does not need to be a space before the closing quote (if there >is one, it will be output as part of the string) Hi As an example, : HI ." HELLO WORLD" ; should echo when you enter the word HI. > >> Might help. Sometimes you can also type WORDS at the command prompt and >> see all the words. Tony mentions VLIST but I've also seen WORDS or LIST used for this function as well. As for filenames, this is something that each implementation does differently. If you can get a VLIST, we can most likely figure out what is going on. Some simple test. 100 CONSTANT FRED ( should create the constant FRED ) FRED . ( should print 100 ) 200 VARIABLE SAM ( should create the variable SAM but depending on implementation it may or may not initialize the value to 100 ) SAM @ . ( should display the value 200 ) 300 SAM ! ( should store 300 to SAM ) SAM ? ( if implemented should display the value in SAM ) SAM . ( displays the address of SAM ) Anyway, try to get a complete list of words with something like VLIST. It'll pick up things like single character words like ! or . that would otherwise be hard to find. As was mentioned, even though it may only store 4 characters of a word, most times it also stores the length so even though VARI doesn't work VARIABLE should work ( even VARIXXXX would do the same ). I like Forth but I think the truncated names are a pain. It would be better to have the first 3 letters and a hash of the word as a last byte. I guess for a memory constrained system, one has trade-offs. Dwight From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Jan 24 15:10:47 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:10:47 +0100 Subject: RK07 questions - now RK611 questions Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22E4@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Oops, sorry about the previous reply. Hit the wrong button! There is nothing added in that reply ... Tony wrote: > Do you want my help or not? Because I sure am not going to help you > to swap boards. Your help is much appreciated, Tony! But, if you know what and why to do something, a swap is not a crime. Of course, you swap only *one* board. If that solved the problem, you can label the swapped board with a note of the seen symptom. I say that it solved the problem, not fixed it. That's for later ... > What I can tell you is how to trace that fault. The diagnostic seems to > be saying that the top bit (bit 15) of CSR1 could not be cleared. So, > let's grab the prints (but not tonight, it's late...) and find CSR 1, > find out what should set and clear bit 15, and see what's going on there. That's what I'd do, the diagnostic output is descriptive enough. However, ... I don't have the printset of the RK611 :-( and it is not on bitsavers :-( I'm afraid I will have to put the RK07/RK611 on hold for a short time ... - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Jan 24 17:55:44 2006 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:55:44 -0600 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs - wierd logic In-Reply-To: <200601051800.k05I0DM2092758@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601051800.k05I0DM2092758@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: All, way behind on my digests, sorry for the time-warped reply. At 12:00 -0600 1/5/06, Chuck wrote: > >Why not Shockley diodes? Anyone remember the Shockley demo of a diode-only >>audio amplifier back in the 60's? ...and my nomination for hobbyist research is: Balanced trinary! (Possibly using superconductors and SQUID detectors.) Balanced trinary means place values go up by three each, but instead of each place containing symbols worth 0, 1, or 2 times the correct power of 3, the symbols are worth (-1), 0, or 1 times that power. Using the letter n for the (-1) symbol, a short counting table is: BT Decimal ... nn -4 n0 -3 n1 -2 0n -1 00 0 01 1 1n 2 10 3 11 4 1nn 5 1n0 6 1n1 7 10n 8 100 9 101 10 ... No need for a negative sign bit, it's built in. Each memory cell needs to hold 3 states, which for superconducting loops should be clockwise, no, or counterclockwise current. Of course, you could simulate this using 2 binary gates to carry each trinary digit - thus wasting 25% of the practical power of your computer (compared to implementing it as base-4). But if Moore's law holds up, that'll only set you back about 3 months compared to conventional binary computers.... Hope at least some of you are laughing by now. Practical applications *do* exist. You can get a long way with just a few weights (one each power of 3) and a balance scale using this system, for example. "n" weights go on the platform with whatever's being weighed, "1" weights go on the other side. -- - Mark 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jan 24 18:13:07 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:13:07 -0500 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs - wierd logic In-Reply-To: References: <200601051800.k05I0DM2092758@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43D6C293.6040800@gmail.com> Mark Tapley wrote: > Of course, you could simulate this using 2 binary gates to carry > each trinary digit - thus wasting 25% of the practical power of your I think you need to call it something other than "trinary digit" because that contracts to "tit". Peace... Sridhar From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 24 18:24:38 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:24:38 -0800 Subject: Homebuilt relay computer References: <200601241136360126.249FEFD6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43D6C547.F2A0ED48@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Let's think about this... > > Could you really make a memory cell with 1 relay per bit using standard > relays? Latching relays, perhaps, but regular "make on coil current/break > on no current" relays? How about: - use regular relays as you suggest, n+1 relays per word, n relays are 'bit relays', the (n+1)'th relay is a 'clear relay'. - a contact of each of the n bit relays is wired to latch the relay. - a normally-closed contact on the clear relay of each word supplies power to the latch contact for the n bit relays. A write cycle for the word consists of the sequence: 1. pulse the clear relay for the word (opens the latch circuit, bit relays are released) 2. 'gate' the data bus onto the coils of the bit relays, the relays for bits="1" pull in and latch up. ... kind of like the write cycle for core memory where you have to set all bits to the same state before changing some to the other state. You get by with one relay per bit but have fixed overhead for each word. A large word size may be advantageous to reduce the ratio of fixed overhead per word. I did a (small) design/experiment with some relays a while ago as a part of a project. It was fun stuff, developing/wrapping-your-head-around some different design principles regarding timing issues, economics (number of contacts available), etc. The fellow's relay computer looks really neat (Ohh.. to have 400 relays). It may be the only Von Neumann architecture relay computer to have been made (or relay CPU to be more accurate, given the IC memory) (I'm presuming it's a basic VN arch). (Although I think there was a fellow by the name of Booth in England that experimented with making an inexpensive machine, late 40s or early 50s, after the stored program concept was developed. I don't remember the details, but it may have used relays. I think it's mentioned in "Early British Computers"/ Simon Lavington/1980/Digital Press/DEC.) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 24 16:27:37 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:27:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK07 questions - now RK611 questions In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22E4@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Jan 24, 6 10:10:47 pm Message-ID: > But, if you know what and why to do something, a swap is not a crime. Our views will differ on this, I suspect :-) > Of course, you swap only *one* board. If that solved the problem, you > can label the swapped board with a note of the seen symptom. > I say that it solved the problem, not fixed it. That's for later ... I don't think you can ever say you solved the problem unless you know what the problem was. Having a problem go away without knowing why is very unsatisfactory for me. And unles you know exactly how each board should behave, and have checked the signals, you can't know you've found the faulty board (We've been through this so many times....) > > > What I can tell you is how to trace that fault. The diagnostic seems to > > be saying that the top bit (bit 15) of CSR1 could not be cleared. So, > > let's grab the prints (but not tonight, it's late...) and find CSR 1, > > find out what should set and clear bit 15, and see what's going on there.= > > = > > That's what I'd do, the diagnostic output is descriptive enough. However, > ... I don't have the printset of the RK611 :-( and it is not on bitsavers = Zog! I do have the RK611 prints, but (a) I can't put my hand on them instantly and (b) I don;t have a scanner. I can try to find them and at least see what could cause this error, but it's going to be hard for you to follow along without the printset. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 24 16:18:48 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:18:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Homebuilt relay computer In-Reply-To: <200601241136360126.249FEFD6@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 24, 6 11:36:36 am Message-ID: > > On 1/24/2006 at 6:31 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >But that could never happen. You would only write one byte at a time, so > >not more than 8 relays would switch at once. > > Let's think about this... > > Could you really make a memory cell with 1 relay per bit using standard > relays? Latching relays, perhaps, but regular "make on coil current/break > on no current" relays? Who said anything about 'standard' relays? I was certainly considering multiple coil or latching realys. With stnadard relays, you can make a latch with one relay (connect an NO contact in series with the coil across the supply). You need to put a break contact of some other relay in series with that so as to be able to reset the latch What I have not worked out is whether that break contact needs to be on a separate relay for each bit, or wheter you can make some kind of tree decoder structure that can only open the supply to one relay at a time. I think the latter is possible (I am assuming the existance of make-before-break relay contact sets so as not to have problems with glitches). Intuitively, if you can have a series tree structure of make contacts to create a 1-of-n decoder, you can have a parallel structure of break contacts too. It's not quite that easy, you need a separate set of cotnacts on each decoder relay for each output. That means you need 256 pole relays to make a 8-bit to 256 output decoder. I suspect 8 pole relays exist or could be made (4 and 6 pole certainly do), that means 32 of them to do the job of one 256 pole relay). > > Then there's the issue of addressing. 32KB would probably entail a 7x8x8 > structure. Se above. > > I'd expect that being able to change the state of a bit might require an > extra relay or two per bit, given an XY-select sort of structure. How > about 4 relays per bit? It's normally taken to be at least 4 transsitors per bit, but I think you need fewer relays than that. > Of course, we could implement memory as a recirculating shift register, > which ought to be lots of fun to listen to... > How about using uniselectors and having decimal (or octal) memory ? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 24 16:21:50 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:21:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Jittery LA36 In-Reply-To: <43D68C83.7060908@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jan 24, 6 08:22:27 pm Message-ID: > > Hi there, > I've finally got the ribbons for my LA36, unjammed the pins in the > printhead and it is printing. It's not quite right yet, though... > > The printhead often jitters backwards and forwards, sometimes several > inches. When you hit "RETURN" it's obviously lost track of where the > head is, and slams it into the left-hand stop, where it sits obstinately > pressed against the spring. > > Cleaning up the photosensor bit on the interrupter wheel seemed to help > a little. I thinkl you're in the right area. I would grab the prints and look at that circuitry, stick a 'scope on the outputs of the phototransistor amplifiers, etc. Oh, and do check the power lines for mains ripple! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 24 18:50:15 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 00:50:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs - wierd logic In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Jan 24, 6 05:55:44 pm Message-ID: > Balanced trinary means place values go up by three each, but instead Personally, I prefer negabinary (base -2). It uses 2-state signals, but the column values are powers of -2 : . . .16, -8, 4, -2, 1 Every postive and negative integer has a unique representation. The adder works (obvuiously) with +ve and -ve numbers. Shift-and-and multiplication works, as does shift-and-subtract division (using negabinary adders/subtractors). To negate a number, shift it left one bit and add it to the origiginal number (this is multiplying by 11, which is -1 of course) negabinary decimal 1100 -4 1101 -3 0010 -2 0011 -1 0000 0 0001 1 0110 2 0111 3 0100 4 Note that numbers of a odd-number of bits length (ingoring leading zeros) are +ve, those of an even number of bits are -ve Years ago I built a 4-bit negabinary adder. The full adder stage has 3 outputs (sum, carry, carry+1) since you have to be able to add 1+1 giveing 110 and therefore has 4 inputs (2 bits to sum, carry in from last stage, carry in to last-but-one stage). -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 24 19:01:17 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:01:17 -0800 Subject: Homebuilt relay computer In-Reply-To: <43D6C547.F2A0ED48@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200601241136360126.249FEFD6@10.0.0.252> <43D6C547.F2A0ED48@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200601241701170011.25C92DF1@10.0.0.252> On 1/24/2006 at 4:24 PM Brent Hilpert wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Let's think about this... >> >> Could you really make a memory cell with 1 relay per bit using standard >> relays? Latching relays, perhaps, but regular "make on coil >current/break >> on no current" relays? > >How about: > - use regular relays as you suggest, n+1 relays per word, > n relays are 'bit relays', the (n+1)'th relay is a 'clear relay'. > > - a contact of each of the n bit relays is wired to latch the relay. > > - a normally-closed contact on the clear relay of each word > supplies power to the latch contact for the n bit relays. > >A write cycle for the word consists of the sequence: > 1. pulse the clear relay for the word > (opens the latch circuit, bit relays are released) > > 2. 'gate' the data bus onto the coils of the bit relays, > the relays for bits="1" pull in and latch up. What would the address selection logic look like? For 32K, it would be 7x8. For writing, I suppose you could use some steering diodes at each relay and supply somewhat less than the pull-in current needed on the x and y access, so that the addressed relay wouldn't pull in unless both x and y signals were present. I suppose readout could be accomplished with another set of contacts on the select relays. Doing a 32Kx8 would doubtless require some significant timing delays to allow for mechanical settling of the relay contacts. Mechanical systems can be very interesting. Old pipe organs (before the advent of electronics and electricity) used a mechanical memory to record the states of adjustable combinations. Usually accomplished by flipping pawls one way or the other. IIRC, the big Univac drum used on the 1107/1108 systems (FASTRAND II?) used a mechanical system to position the heads. Essentially a system of levers driven by solenoids(?) that decoded a binary signal into an absolute position. ...and then there's the way a Teletype decodes incoming serial data that's very clever. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 24 19:02:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:02:45 -0800 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs - wierd logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601241702450663.25CA8839@10.0.0.252> On 1/25/2006 at 12:50 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >> Balanced trinary means place values go up by three each, but instead > >Personally, I prefer negabinary (base -2). It uses 2-state signals, but >the column values are powers of -2 : . . .16, -8, 4, -2, 1 Didn't the 8087 use ternary (base 3) for some of its internal logic? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 24 19:14:02 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:14:02 -0800 Subject: Homebuilt relay computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601241714020470.25D4DBDE@10.0.0.252> On 1/24/2006 at 10:18 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >How about using uniselectors and having decimal (or octal) memory ? I suppose you might also include some Strowger switches for address decoding... Back when I was in high school (a very long time ago), a fellow built a tic-tac-toe "computer" using stepping relays and other telephone gear, including a rotary dial where one input one's move. (only 9 possibilities, so that was convenient). The contraption would make its own move in response. Readout was a 3x3 grid of 25W incandescent lamps. It was fun to watch. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 24 19:23:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:23:29 -0800 Subject: Anyone looking for laptop memory? Message-ID: <200601241723290093.25DD8121@10.0.0.252> While looking for my cache of PMC MO disks, I stumbled on a box with some NOS memory modules. I think I got these when I bid on a mixed lot of old memory modules that had one that I really wanted. I found 2 2MB and one 8 MB module for what I believe should be a Compaq LITE4. These are about the same size as a PCMCIA card, but with offset contact rows (in contrast to a PCMCIA card). I've also got a 4MB and an 8MB short (about 2" long) 72-contact SIMM. One is labeled "21xx Memory" if that's any help. I've also got another small 8MB memory module about 2"x1" with two 30-pin female headers on each end of one side. Anyone have a need for these or even know what they are? Cheers, Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jan 24 19:54:20 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:54:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs - wierd logic In-Reply-To: <43D6C293.6040800@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I think you need to call it something other than "trinary digit" because > that contracts to "tit". Hey, that might be as close as some computer geeks get to the real thing...BUT I DIGRESS... But there is a nit. The information theory people use it. It is basically a unit of information with e states. e as in 2.818.... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Jan 24 20:00:47 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:00:47 -0600 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs - wierd logic In-Reply-To: <200601241702450663.25CA8839@10.0.0.252> References: <200601241702450663.25CA8839@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43D6DBCF.90804@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/25/2006 at 12:50 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > >>> Balanced trinary means place values go up by three each, but instead >> Personally, I prefer negabinary (base -2). It uses 2-state signals, but >> the column values are powers of -2 : . . .16, -8, 4, -2, 1 > > Didn't the 8087 use ternary (base 3) for some of its internal logic? > > --Chuck No, my memory was that it used 4-state cells to encode two bits per cell in the microcode rom. Rather than transistor/no transistor to represent 0/1, it used no transitor = 00, weak transistor=01, normal transistor=10, strong transistor=11, or something akin to that. That sounds great, except that the bit cells were a substantial portion of twice as big as a simple one bit/cell design. There was some area savings, but not 50%. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 24 20:44:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:44:43 -0700 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:16:43 -0800. <20060124051643.58973.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <20060124051643.58973.qmail at web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, steven stengel writes: > 38 JPEG images - very large in size - sorry, no PDF! What's a good free tool for turning scanned pages into a PDF? I see that Adobe now has a product called Adobe Acrobat Capture that seems like it would be perfect for turning old manuals into PDFs. They claim that it can create documents of these types: - PDF image only -- similar to the PDFs on bitsavers - PDF searchable image -- the pages are shown as images, but are OCRed into a hidden text layer so that you can search a document that looks like images - PDF formatted text+images -- text is OCR'ed and non-text portions of the document are kept as image layers - HTML - ASCII Does anyone have familiarity with this Capture product? Its only $99 when purchased as a download. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 24 20:55:55 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:55:55 -0700 Subject: As promised -- updated museums list In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 24 Jan 2006 01:17:33 -0500. <009a01c620ad$dd279e30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: Cool! There's one in Bozeman, MT which is only 8 hrs from here :-). Has anyone been to the "American Computer Museum" in Bozeman, MT? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jan 24 20:58:51 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 18:58:51 -0800 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601241858.51761.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 24 January 2006 18:44, Richard wrote: > In article <20060124051643.58973.qmail at web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, > > steven stengel writes: > > 38 JPEG images - very large in size - sorry, no PDF! > > What's a good free tool for turning scanned pages into a PDF? I use "tiffcp" to concatenate individual tiff page scans then use "tiff2pdf" to create a pdf. Simple - and all opensource software (i.e. "free") available on most Linux and many other *nix systems. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 24 21:15:53 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:15:53 -0800 Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs - wierd logic In-Reply-To: <43D6DBCF.90804@pacbell.net> References: <200601241702450663.25CA8839@10.0.0.252> <43D6DBCF.90804@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200601241915530678.26446A6E@10.0.0.252> On 1/24/2006 at 8:00 PM Jim Battle wrote: >No, my memory was that it used 4-state cells to encode two bits per cell >in the microcode rom. Rather than transistor/no transistor to represent >0/1, it used no transitor = 00, weak transistor=01, normal >transistor=10, strong transistor=11, or something akin to that. Quite correct! I found a couple of citations in the IEEE online archives. My muddled mind had it as (zero, one and neither). I understand that some flash memories also use 4-valued (quaternary) memory cells "under the hood". I wonder if eventually multi-valued logic may have its biggest potential not in speed or conservation of chip space, but rather in decreasing the number of I/O pins. Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Jan 24 21:17:31 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 21:17:31 -0600 Subject: downloading & installing using VMSINSTAL problems Message-ID: <69252c2e42d94e08a244422b397ab80b@valleyimplants.com> I am trying to install some layered products on my AXP-VMS machine (VX42 Multia running v7.3-1) and I keep running into the same error. for $@sys$update:vmsinstal (product, tried with CXX065 and AXP_DECWRITE31A) dka0:[install_sets] options n it prints "error reading dka0:[install_sets] AXP_DECWRITE31A.A software block CRC error invalid block size in save set invalid record size in save set invalid record size in save set" several times and then errors out to DCL. I'm getting the sets from vmsone.com, but I do have to launder them through other machines, as Bet doesn't have internet access or a web browser. I've tried Windows at work (high-speed network access), thought it was the Windows bitrot that sometimes occurs, but the "A" saveset of DECWRITE31A doesn't even work when downloaded from a Macintosh (tried with VMSINSTAL and BACKUP). What am I doing wrong, or is it just my cheap equipment (other weirdness- when DECwindows starts it locks up the keyboard - bizarre, don't know if this is a Multia+VMS problem or an issue with the Multia+VMS+SGI keyboard. I'll have to do some testing), What's a good baseline for Alphas in terms of usability with VMS7.3+? the 233MHz LCA seems to be not much faster than a VAXstation 3100/76, and if I do find another Alpha, I don't want to spend a lot on something that creaks along (and I know what the SPEC scores say- but this VX42 is not up where other machines scoring ~100 SPECxx 92 are in basic useability) From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 24 21:41:15 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:41:15 -0800 Subject: RK611 schematics Message-ID: now up at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/MP00105_RK611_schem_Aug77.pdf From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jan 24 22:20:11 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:20:11 -0600 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: <200601241858.51761.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200601241858.51761.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <43D6FC7B.6050706@oldskool.org> Lyle Bickley wrote: >>What's a good free tool for turning scanned pages into a PDF? > > I use "tiffcp" to concatenate individual tiff page scans then use "tiff2pdf" > to create a pdf. Simple - and all opensource software (i.e. "free") available > on most Linux and many other *nix systems. Yes, but this doesn't perform any OCR, just uses PDF as a wrapper to the images. To the previous poster: I use Adobe Acrobat Capture and it has a great advantage and a great disadvantage: Pro: It OCR's the text -- you can keep it as-is behind the images to make the images text-searchable, or you can use it to fully convert the images into text themselves (massively massively reduces the size of the file while increasing font quality) Con: The OCR is only 90% accurate. You do a lot of touch-up. I can email you a PDF I created just recently with it; it took 600 DPI monochrome scanned text from the IBM Music Feature tech ref and converted (with 15 minutes of my help) into pure text. Email me off-list if you'd like a copy to examine. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 24 22:29:55 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:29:55 -0800 Subject: downloading & installing using VMSINSTAL problems In-Reply-To: <69252c2e42d94e08a244422b397ab80b@valleyimplants.com> References: <69252c2e42d94e08a244422b397ab80b@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: At 9:17 PM -0600 1/24/06, compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: >I am trying to install some layered products on my AXP-VMS machine >(VX42 Multia running v7.3-1) and I keep running into the same error. > > for $@sys$update:vmsinstal (product, tried with CXX065 and >AXP_DECWRITE31A) dka0:[install_sets] options n > > it prints "error reading dka0:[install_sets] AXP_DECWRITE31A.A > > software block CRC error > > invalid block size in save set > > invalid record size in save set > > invalid record size in save set" Check the freeware CD's or VMS FAQ, there should be something on them about fixing the file attributes after they get munged by FTP. If you could go straight to the VMS system that should also cure the problem, as it's introduced by transferring the files to a non-VMS system. > What am I doing wrong, or is it just my cheap equipment (other >weirdness- when DECwindows starts it locks up the keyboard - >bizarre, don't know if this is a Multia+VMS problem or an issue with >the Multia+VMS+SGI keyboard. I'll have to do some testing), Have you got a KVM on there? I had problems with my Multia loosing the keyboard on a KVM. I think I only had DEC keyboards, but an SGI PS/2 keyboard should work. > What's a good baseline for Alphas in terms of usability with >VMS7.3+? the 233MHz LCA seems to be not much faster than a >VAXstation 3100/76, and if I do find another Alpha, I don't want to >spend a lot on something that creaks along (and I know what the SPEC >scores say- but this VX42 is not up where other machines scoring >~100 SPECxx 92 are in basic useability) The Multia is a bad choice, as are the DEC 3000 series. An AlphaStation 200 4/233 or better would be OK, but a DEC PWS 433au or better would be an even better choice. One thing to pay close attention to is RAM. The realistic minimum is 128MB, but really you want 192MB or more. Watch out for systems that take non-standard RAM, such as the AlphaStation 500, if you get one, make sure it has all the RAM you'll want. I bought my AlphaStation 500/333 from Compaq for a sizeable chunk of change right after they bought DEC, I've never really used it, as more RAM was to expensive, it turned out to be cheaper to get a DEC PWS 433au! Oh, the spec's on a AlphaStation 200 4/233 say it can only go up to 384MB (6x64Mb), in reality it can go up to 768MB (6x128Mb), the trick is finding 128MB 72-pin true parity SIMM's! Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Jan 25 00:05:58 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 07:05:58 +0100 Subject: RK611 schematics Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22E7@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Great! Thanks Al, and the person that provided them! I will download them tomorrow and print them. I have a day off, to pick up an 11/34 with a LAB-11 and ... an RK07! BTW, I have uploaded the RK07 printset in 4 parts, total 100 Mb. - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Al Kossow Verzonden: wo 25-01-2006 04:41 Aan: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: RK611 schematics now up at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/MP00105_RK611_schem_Aug77.pdf This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Wed Jan 25 00:56:40 2006 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 07:56:40 +0100 (MET) Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs - wierd logic Message-ID: <5881.1138172200@www049.gmx.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Mark Tapley wrote: > > > Of course, you could simulate this using 2 binary gates to carry > > each trinary digit - thus wasting 25% of the practical power of your > > > I think you need to call it something other than "trinary digit" because > that contracts to "tit". > > Peace... Sridhar Hmm, not quite. According to the documentation of Malbolge (an esoteric programming language specifically designed to be difficult to program in and using trinary "arithmetic"), that's "trit". The specification is here: http://www.antwon.com/other/malbolge/malbolge.txt So long, -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Telefonieren Sie schon oder sparen Sie noch? NEU: GMX Phone_Flat http://www.gmx.net/de/go/telefonie From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Wed Jan 25 01:21:54 2006 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 08:21:54 +0100 (MET) Subject: HP 700 stuff FTGH (Germany) Message-ID: <2572.1138173714@www049.gmx.net> Hello, Erlangen University in Northern Bavaria, Germany, is about to dispose of some old computing equipment from the departments of Electrical Engineering and Materials Science: -several (10 +-) HP 700/RX colour X-Terminals, complete with HP Sync-on-Green monitors, cables, HP-HIL Keyboards and Mice. Comes with tower stand. -some (5 +-) HP 712/100 Workstations, complete with HP (VGA?) Monitors, cables, HP PS/2 Keyboards and Mice. Comes with tower stand. -a couple HP apollo 9000/? (600? 700?) Workstations (narrow tower or wide pizza box), complete with HP Sync-on-Green monitors, cables, keyboards and mice. These are all upgrade throws and therefore were working until shut down (except for one 712/100). Software to boot the X-Terminals is available on http://www.cb3rob.net/~sven/xterm/, for example. I'll be saving some of the stuff for the museum and some more for myself, but of course I can't take the whole load. However as I don't want it crushed, I offer to put aside and store what you promise to pick up. Shipping may be possible, but we're trying to avoid it at the moment. ATTENTION: even if the X-terminals and HP 712/100 have VGA style monitor connectors, DON'T try any ordinary VGA screen on them!!! My personal 700/RX (b/w variety) has blown one of my fairly modern VGA monitors (although it worked with a different one), so be sure to check the supported frequency ranges! Best take a monitor that comes with it. Hope to hear from you, -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de 10 GB Mailbox, 100 FreeSMS/Monat http://www.gmx.net/de/go/topmail +++ GMX - die erste Adresse f?r Mail, Message, More +++ From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jan 25 01:41:20 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 07:41:20 -0000 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: <43D6FC7B.6050706@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <004601c62182$bd191300$5b01a8c0@pc1> Jim Leonard wrote: > Con: The OCR is only 90% accurate. You do a lot of touch-up. The straight conversion is easy using a great many free and non-free tools. OCR is the hard part and I've yet to hear of anything that is even close to remotely acceptable. At say 1000 words/page a success rate of 99.9% still leaves you with one fix up per page. That's a good chunk of work for even a small manual (say 200 pages). It's a lot of work for an RT-11 manual set or similar! Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jan 25 01:48:21 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 07:48:21 -0000 Subject: downloading & installing using VMSINSTAL problems In-Reply-To: <69252c2e42d94e08a244422b397ab80b@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <004701c62183$b82eb920$5b01a8c0@pc1> compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > I am trying to install some layered products on my AXP-VMS machine > (VX42 Multia running v7.3-1) and I keep running into > the same error. for $@sys$update:vmsinstal (product, > tried with CXX065 and AXP_DECWRITE31A) > dka0:[install_sets] options n it prints "error reading > dka0:[install_sets] AXP_DECWRITE31A.A software block CRC error > invalid block size in save set invalid record size in save set > invalid record size in save set" several times and then errors out to > DCL. I presume that $ BACKUP/LIST wherever:saveset.A/SAVE falls over similarly? If so your problem is almost certainly that the record format is incorrect. The default value is fixed-length 32356 byte records; you can check that by looking at the BACKUP/LIST output before it falls over, the value you want is block size. Try: $ SET FILE wherever:saveset.A /ATT=(RFM:fix,RAT:none,LRL:32256) and see if that helps. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jan 25 02:40:40 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 08:40:40 -0000 (GMT) Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: <004601c62182$bd191300$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <43D6FC7B.6050706@oldskool.org> <004601c62182$bd191300$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <38547.195.212.29.92.1138178440.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > OCR is the hard part and I've yet to hear of anything that is > even close to remotely acceptable. At say 1000 words/page > a success rate of 99.9% still leaves you with one fix up > per page. That's a good chunk of work for even a small manual > (say 200 pages). It's a lot of work for an RT-11 manual set > or similar! Sounds like an ideal thing for a distributed project. Give everyone who registers a few pages to proof read, combine into finished work. If you wanted cross-checking you'd just make sure that different people got different batches at different times, and diff the results. Gordon. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 25 03:33:28 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 02:33:28 -0700 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 25 Jan 2006 08:40:40 +0000. <38547.195.212.29.92.1138178440.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> Message-ID: In article <38547.195.212.29.92.1138178440.squirrel at mail.gjcp.net>, gordonjcp at gjcp.net writes: > > > OCR is the hard part and I've yet to hear of anything that is > > even close to remotely acceptable. At say 1000 words/page > > a success rate of 99.9% still leaves you with one fix up > > per page. That's a good chunk of work for even a small manual > > (say 200 pages). It's a lot of work for an RT-11 manual set > > or similar! > > Sounds like an ideal thing for a distributed project. > Give everyone who registers a few pages to proof read, combine into > finished work. If you wanted cross-checking you'd just make sure that > different people got different batches at different times, and diff the > results. Wouldn't this require that everyone have a copy of Acrobat Capture? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jan 25 03:58:11 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:58:11 -0000 (GMT) Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Wed, 25 Jan 2006 08:40:40 +0000. <38547.195.212.29.92.1138178440.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> Message-ID: <52171.195.212.29.67.1138183091.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > > In article <38547.195.212.29.92.1138178440.squirrel at mail.gjcp.net>, > gordonjcp at gjcp.net writes: > >> >> > OCR is the hard part and I've yet to hear of anything that is >> > even close to remotely acceptable. At say 1000 words/page >> > a success rate of 99.9% still leaves you with one fix up >> > per page. That's a good chunk of work for even a small manual >> > (say 200 pages). It's a lot of work for an RT-11 manual set >> > or similar! >> >> Sounds like an ideal thing for a distributed project. >> Give everyone who registers a few pages to proof read, combine into >> finished work. If you wanted cross-checking you'd just make sure that >> different people got different batches at different times, and diff the >> results. > > Wouldn't this require that everyone have a copy of Acrobat Capture? No, just scans of the pages and the OCRed text. One person with Acrobat Capture (or some other scanning and OCR package) would get it into soft copy, and then bundles of text (say a dozen pages each) would be sent to contributors. Gordon. From Laurence.Cuffe at ucd.ie Wed Jan 25 06:39:09 2006 From: Laurence.Cuffe at ucd.ie (Laurence Cuffe) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 12:39:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs - wierd logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 0:50 am Subject: Re: Homebuilt TTL and transistor CPUs - wierd logic > > Balanced trinary means place values go up by three each, but > instead > > Personally, I prefer negabinary (base -2). It uses 2-state > signals, but > the column values are powers of -2 : . . .16, -8, 4, -2, 1 So thats what its called! I've been playing around with it for years but never tried to track down other work. While were at it other variations could be imaginary negabinary to (base -2i), imagibinary (base 2i) all the best Laurence Cuffe > > Every postive and negative integer has a unique representation. > The > adder works (obvuiously) with +ve and -ve numbers. Shift-and-and > multiplication works, as does shift-and-subtract division (using > negabinary adders/subtractors). To negate a number, shift it left > one bit > and add it to the origiginal number (this is multiplying by 11, > which is > -1 of course) > > negabinary decimal > 1100 -4 > 1101 -3 > 0010 -2 > 0011 -1 > 0000 0 > 0001 1 > 0110 2 > 0111 3 > 0100 4 > > Note that numbers of a odd-number of bits length (ingoring leading > zeros) > are +ve, those of an even number of bits are -ve > > Years ago I built a 4-bit negabinary adder. The full adder stage > has 3 > outputs (sum, carry, carry+1) since you have to be able to add 1+1 > giveing 110 and therefore has 4 inputs (2 bits to sum, carry in > from last > stage, carry in to last-but-one stage). > > -tony > > From mokuba at gmail.com Wed Jan 25 07:31:51 2006 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 08:31:51 -0500 Subject: Microsoft doesn't like ClassicCmp? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060124071453.04f14518@mail> Message-ID: On 1/24/06 8:22 AM, "John Foust" wrote: > More apropo Entourage, it seems like a reasonably nice Mac version > of Outlook. It wouldn't surprise me if it was slightly different > in obscure header handling. I've grown despondent about the hope of > finding a decent replacement for Eudora/Win. The company seems > to be going down the tubes in quality and support. I want something > that'll handle a gig or two of mailboxes without hiccup. > > - John > It is quite nice, my mailboxes only total up to 900MB, but it handles them without a hitch. From ama at ugr.es Wed Jan 25 07:50:12 2006 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:50:12 +0100 Subject: Anyone looking for laptop memory? In-Reply-To: <200601241723290093.25DD8121@10.0.0.252> References: <200601241723290093.25DD8121@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060125135012.GF726@darwin.ugr.es> Hello Chuck, On Tue, Jan 24, 2006 at 05:23:29PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > While looking for my cache of PMC MO disks, I stumbled on a box with some > NOS memory modules. I think I got these when I bid on a mixed lot of old > memory modules that had one that I really wanted. I have a Compaq Contura 410CX. It's a 486DX2-66 with 12MB in which current versions of FreeBSD, OpenBSD or NetBSD won't install because of the little RAM. I've had running FreeBSD, muLinux and Tiny Linux on it, but I really would like to be able to install a current version of one of the BSD, which I think it would be possible with a little more RAM. I don't know how to access the RAM on this machine. I'll try to look for a technical description and see which kind of RAM it takes, and get back to you if it?s one of the kinds you have mentioned. Anybody else knows anything about this Contura, its RAM or its tech specs or something which might help? Thank you! > I found 2 2MB and one 8 MB module for what I believe should be a Compaq > LITE4. These are about the same size as a PCMCIA card, but with offset > contact rows (in contrast to a PCMCIA card). > > I've also got a 4MB and an 8MB short (about 2" long) 72-contact SIMM. One > is labeled "21xx Memory" if that's any help. > > I've also got another small 8MB memory module about 2"x1" with two 30-pin > female headers on each end of one side. > > Anyone have a need for these or even know what they are? > > Cheers, > Chuck -- Angel Martin Alganza Tel +34 958 248 926 Departamento de Genetica Fax +34 958 244 073 Universidad de Granada mailto:ama at ugr.es C/ Fuentenueva s/n http://www.ugr.es/~ama E-18071 Granada, Spain JabberID alganza at jabber.org ------------------------------------------------------ /~\ The ASCII PGP Public key: \ / Ribbon Campaign www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key X Against HTML Email 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 / \ and MS attachments 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 25 08:00:36 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:00:36 -0500 Subject: Anyone looking for laptop memory? In-Reply-To: <20060125135012.GF726@darwin.ugr.es> References: <200601241723290093.25DD8121@10.0.0.252> <20060125135012.GF726@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <43D78484.1090705@gmail.com> Angel Martin Alganza wrote: > I have a Compaq Contura 410CX. It's a 486DX2-66 with 12MB in which > current versions of FreeBSD, OpenBSD or NetBSD won't install because > of the little RAM. I've had running FreeBSD, muLinux and Tiny Linux > on it, but I really would like to be able to install a current version > of one of the BSD, which I think it would be possible with a little > more RAM. I've successfully installed NetBSD recently with 4MB RAM. It sucks, and you have to install manually, but it works. Peace... Sridhar From auringer at tds.net Wed Jan 25 08:20:42 2006 From: auringer at tds.net (Jon Auringer) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 08:20:42 -0600 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43D7893A.3020202@tds.net> Richard wrote: >Does anyone have familiarity with this Capture product? Its only $99 >when purchased as a download. > > This sounded too good to be true, and it is. Your $99 only buys you a "A set of four powerful plug-in agents for use with Acrobat Capture software." The page limited version of the software is $399. The full version is $4000! :( Jon From ama at ugr.es Wed Jan 25 08:55:34 2006 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:55:34 +0100 Subject: Anyone looking for laptop memory? In-Reply-To: <43D78484.1090705@gmail.com> References: <20060125135012.GF726@darwin.ugr.es> <43D78484.1090705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060125145534.GG726@darwin.ugr.es> On Wed, Jan 25, 2006 at 09:00:36AM -0500, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I've successfully installed NetBSD recently with 4MB RAM. It sucks, and > you have to install manually, but it works. Cool! I've just tried the network installation with the boot-tiny floppy, but it fails to recognize my PCMCIA NIC. The normal boot floppies won't work with 12MB. Where can I read about the manually installation you refer to? I woudn't mind installing even from floppies, since I enjoy reading technical writings and trying out OS installations through different methods. Thank you and regards, ?ngel -- Angel Martin Alganza Tel +34 958 248 926 Departamento de Genetica Fax +34 958 244 073 Universidad de Granada mailto:ama at ugr.es C/ Fuentenueva s/n http://www.ugr.es/~ama E-18071 Granada, Spain JabberID alganza at jabber.org ------------------------------------------------------ /~\ The ASCII PGP Public key: \ / Ribbon Campaign www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key X Against HTML Email 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 / \ and MS attachments 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 25 09:07:27 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:07:27 -0500 Subject: Anyone looking for laptop memory? In-Reply-To: <20060125145534.GG726@darwin.ugr.es> References: <20060125135012.GF726@darwin.ugr.es> <43D78484.1090705@gmail.com> <20060125145534.GG726@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <43D7942F.8000202@gmail.com> Angel Martin Alganza wrote: >>I've successfully installed NetBSD recently with 4MB RAM. It sucks, and >>you have to install manually, but it works. > > Cool! I've just tried the network installation with the boot-tiny > floppy, but it fails to recognize my PCMCIA NIC. The normal boot > floppies won't work with 12MB. Which network card? It's very possible that the INSTALL_TINY kernel is compiled without its support. I would suggest compiling a custom INSTALL_TINY kernel with the support for your card added, and using that kernel in the boot-tiny filesystem instead of the INSTALL_TINY kernel. > Where can I read about the manually installation you refer to? I > woudn't mind installing even from floppies, since I enjoy reading > technical writings and trying out OS installations through different > methods. Basically, it just involves doing everything sysinst does, but manually, while skipping any steps which aren't completely necessary and use too much RAM. Peace... Sridhar From ama at ugr.es Wed Jan 25 09:36:13 2006 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:36:13 +0100 Subject: Anyone looking for laptop memory? In-Reply-To: <43D7942F.8000202@gmail.com> References: <20060125135012.GF726@darwin.ugr.es> <43D7942F.8000202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060125153613.GH726@darwin.ugr.es> Hi Sridhar, On Wed, Jan 25, 2006 at 10:07:27AM -0500, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Which network card? It's very possible that the INSTALL_TINY kernel is It's a PCMCIA ne2000 compatible NIC made by Accton. It gets recognized by all (boot, bootlap, and boot-tiny) sets of floppies as either ne0 or ne2. I asume there is support for it on all the kernels, then. > Basically, it just involves doing everything sysinst does, but manually, > while skipping any steps which aren't completely necessary and use too > much RAM. I see. I'm trying to find a set of floppies to install from then, since my laptop doesn't have a CD drive and I have no success with the network installation. Do you know whether they exist at all? Again thank you! Angel -- Angel Martin Alganza Tel +34 958 248 926 Departamento de Genetica Fax +34 958 244 073 Universidad de Granada mailto:ama at ugr.es C/ Fuentenueva s/n http://www.ugr.es/~ama E-18071 Granada, Spain JabberID alganza at jabber.org ------------------------------------------------------ /~\ The ASCII PGP Public key: \ / Ribbon Campaign www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key X Against HTML Email 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 / \ and MS attachments 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Jan 25 09:57:05 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 07:57:05 -0800 Subject: Microsoft doesn't like ClassicCmp? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601250757.06035.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 25 January 2006 05:31, Gary Sparkes wrote: > On 1/24/06 8:22 AM, "John Foust" wrote: > > More apropo Entourage, it seems like a reasonably nice Mac version > > of Outlook. It wouldn't surprise me if it was slightly different > > in obscure header handling. I've grown despondent about the hope of > > finding a decent replacement for Eudora/Win. The company seems > > to be going down the tubes in quality and support. I want something > > that'll handle a gig or two of mailboxes without hiccup. > > > > - John > > It is quite nice, my mailboxes only total up to 900MB, but it handles them > without a hitch. Since I'm a Linux buff, I use Kmail - which works well for my 2.1GB mail folder... It plays well with Spamassassin and has all the "usual" features of handling certificates, sorting mail to folders based on settable criteria, etc. It handles the usual Local mailboxes, POP3, IMAP, Disconnected IMAP, etc. All Open Source, all free. ;-) Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 25 09:57:22 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:57:22 -0500 Subject: Anyone looking for laptop memory? In-Reply-To: <20060125153613.GH726@darwin.ugr.es> References: <20060125135012.GF726@darwin.ugr.es> <43D7942F.8000202@gmail.com> <20060125153613.GH726@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <43D79FE2.2060309@gmail.com> Angel Martin Alganza wrote: >>Which network card? It's very possible that the INSTALL_TINY kernel is > > It's a PCMCIA ne2000 compatible NIC made by Accton. It gets > recognized by all (boot, bootlap, and boot-tiny) sets of floppies as > either ne0 or ne2. I asume there is support for it on all the > kernels, then. It's recognized, but not working? In that case, I would suggest trying a different card. It might be an incompatibility issue with the driver. >>Basically, it just involves doing everything sysinst does, but manually, >>while skipping any steps which aren't completely necessary and use too >>much RAM. > > I see. I'm trying to find a set of floppies to install from then, > since my laptop doesn't have a CD drive and I have no success with the > network installation. Do you know whether they exist at all? You have to take the fileset tarballs and run them through the split(1) command on an existing NetBSD box, and then write them to DOS floppies. The instructions are in the install docs. I guarantee you won't like it. We're talking about dozens, if not hundreds, of floppies. Peace... Sridhar From kth at srv.net Wed Jan 25 10:22:11 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:22:11 -0700 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: <38547.195.212.29.92.1138178440.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> References: <43D6FC7B.6050706@oldskool.org> <004601c62182$bd191300$5b01a8c0@pc1> <38547.195.212.29.92.1138178440.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43D7A5B3.9010607@srv.net> gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: >>OCR is the hard part and I've yet to hear of anything that is >>even close to remotely acceptable. At say 1000 words/page >>a success rate of 99.9% still leaves you with one fix up >>per page. That's a good chunk of work for even a small manual >>(say 200 pages). It's a lot of work for an RT-11 manual set >>or similar! >> >> > >Sounds like an ideal thing for a distributed project. >Give everyone who registers a few pages to proof read, combine into >finished work. If you wanted cross-checking you'd just make sure that >different people got different batches at different times, and diff the >results. > >Gordon. > > Sounds like you want something like: http://www.pgdp.net/c/default.php However, for technical documents, I'd like to be able to see the original in case an OCR scanno occurs in just the wrong place. From ama at ugr.es Wed Jan 25 10:28:30 2006 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:28:30 +0100 Subject: Anyone looking for laptop memory? In-Reply-To: <43D79FE2.2060309@gmail.com> References: <20060125135012.GF726@darwin.ugr.es> <43D79FE2.2060309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060125162830.GI726@darwin.ugr.es> On Wed, Jan 25, 2006 at 10:57:22AM -0500, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > It's recognized, but not working? In that case, I would suggest trying Yes. It says there is a card at ne0 or ne2 (depending on the floppy set I use) and then asks for the type of interface. I don't really understand what this question is about but I've tried 2baseT, 10baseT, and a few other answers somebody at comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc in Usenet has sugested w/o any success. > a different card. It might be an incompatibility issue with the driver. I might do so. I'll try to borrow one and see what comes out. > You have to take the fileset tarballs and run them through the split(1) > command on an existing NetBSD box, and then write them to DOS floppies. > The instructions are in the install docs. I guarantee you won't like > it. We're talking about dozens, if not hundreds, of floppies. I see... I don't need a full installation. Having Vim, screen and SSH would do for the use I want to give to my beloved Compaq laptop :-) Cheers, ?ngel -- Angel Martin Alganza Tel +34 958 248 926 Departamento de Genetica Fax +34 958 244 073 Universidad de Granada mailto:ama at ugr.es C/ Fuentenueva s/n http://www.ugr.es/~ama E-18071 Granada, Spain JabberID alganza at jabber.org ------------------------------------------------------ /~\ The ASCII PGP Public key: \ / Ribbon Campaign www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key X Against HTML Email 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 / \ and MS attachments 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591 Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jan 25 10:51:47 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:51:47 -0000 (GMT) Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: <43D7A5B3.9010607@srv.net> References: <43D6FC7B.6050706@oldskool.org> <004601c62182$bd191300$5b01a8c0@pc1> <38547.195.212.29.92.1138178440.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> <43D7A5B3.9010607@srv.net> Message-ID: <53674.195.212.29.92.1138207907.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > > However, for technical documents, I'd like to be able to see the > original in case an OCR scanno occurs in just the wrong place. Possibly didn't make it entirely clear, but you'd send the OCRed text *and* scans of the original pages. Arty people could probably reconstruct the diagrams in a helpful way. Gordon. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jan 25 11:57:34 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:57:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Homebuilt relay computer Message-ID: <200601251757.JAA25391@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 1/24/2006 at 10:18 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > >>How about using uniselectors and having decimal (or octal) memory ? > >I suppose you might also include some Strowger switches for address >decoding... > >Back when I was in high school (a very long time ago), a fellow built a >tic-tac-toe "computer" using stepping relays and other telephone gear, >including a rotary dial where one input one's move. (only 9 possibilities, >so that was convenient). The contraption would make its own move in >response. Readout was a 3x3 grid of 25W incandescent lamps. > >It was fun to watch. > >Cheers, >Chuck Hi A fellow I know named Ed McLaughlin built one that took him to the national science fair. I don't know if it is the same one but this was in the early 60's some time. Dwight From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Jan 25 12:01:42 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:01:42 -0800 Subject: Jim's 8088Corruption mentioned on SlashDot Message-ID: <1138212102.43d7bd0610bcf@webmail.secure-wi.com> Congratulations Jim! I knew what they were talking about just based on the 1 line description. http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/25/1649251 Mike From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 25 12:16:05 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 10:16:05 -0800 Subject: Homebuilt relay computer In-Reply-To: <200601251757.JAA25391@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200601251757.JAA25391@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <200601251016050574.297C92B6@10.0.0.252> On 1/25/2006 at 9:57 AM Dwight Elvey wrote: >Hi > A fellow I know named Ed McLaughlin built one that took him >to the national science fair. I don't know if it is the same >one but this was in the early 60's some time. Timeframe is about right, but my experience wasn't Ed. I suspect that the design was fairly popular for science fairs. I recall that the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago even had one around that time. It was a great "hands on" display! Cheers, Chuck From allain at panix.com Wed Jan 25 13:38:12 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:38:12 -0500 Subject: Longshot: Symbol PDT 1510A as a terminal References: <69252c2e42d94e08a244422b397ab80b@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <012301c621e6$e71efc00$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> I recently obtained a Symbol Technologies 1510A made as a dedicated laser scanner, that is, eprom'ed to do a specific task. It seems to have a lot of capabilities at hand, like a full keyboard, RS232, 64 character display, ruggedized, and what looks like an acoustic coupler and a phone RJ11. It Is very dedicated to some companies task (flow rates, drawing numbers, etc), however, the EPROM is placed in a ZIF right under the battery door. Removing the rom just brings up a keypress tester. So, here's the longshot. Anybody have a standard terminal program for a Symbol 1510A? This is very analagous to the Panasonic HHC situation. John A. From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Jan 25 14:52:51 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:52:51 -0500 Subject: Homebuilt relay computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601251552.52007.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 24 January 2006 05:18 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > Could you really make a memory cell with 1 relay per bit using standard > > relays? Latching relays, perhaps, but regular "make on coil > > current/break on no current" relays? > > Who said anything about 'standard' relays? I was certainly considering > multiple coil or latching realys. > > With stnadard relays, you can make a latch with one relay (connect an NO > contact in series with the coil across the supply). You need to put a > break contact of some other relay in series with that so as to be able to > reset the latch Or, if there's any resistance in series with that coil, couple a negative-going pulse to it by way of a capacitor. This worked out real well for me with a couple of SCRs one time, with a 100nF cap between the anodes. The second one being turned on while the first one was already on would definitely turn the first one _off_, in spite of them not being spec'd that way. The loads in this case were #47 light bulbs. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Jan 25 14:55:24 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:55:24 -0500 Subject: Homebuilt relay computer In-Reply-To: <200601241714020470.25D4DBDE@10.0.0.252> References: <200601241714020470.25D4DBDE@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601251555.24139.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 24 January 2006 08:14 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/24/2006 at 10:18 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > >How about using uniselectors and having decimal (or octal) memory ? > > I suppose you might also include some Strowger switches for address > decoding... > > Back when I was in high school (a very long time ago), a fellow built a > tic-tac-toe "computer" using stepping relays and other telephone gear, > including a rotary dial where one input one's move. (only 9 possibilities, > so that was convenient). The contraption would make its own move in > response. Readout was a 3x3 grid of 25W incandescent lamps. > > It was fun to watch. I'd like to see a schematic of that one, if it exists... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 25 15:44:30 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:44:30 -0700 Subject: Longshot: Symbol PDT 1510A as a terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:38:12 -0500. <012301c621e6$e71efc00$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: In article <012301c621e6$e71efc00$5f25fea9 at ibm23xhr06>, "John Allain" writes: > I recently obtained a Symbol Technologies 1510A made as a dedicated > laser scanner, that is, eprom'ed to do a specific task. [...] Is this a handheld unit? I am unfamiliar with this device. Do you have a picture or link to a page on it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 25 15:55:21 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:55:21 -0500 Subject: Anyone looking for laptop memory? In-Reply-To: <20060125162830.GI726@darwin.ugr.es> References: <20060125135012.GF726@darwin.ugr.es> <43D79FE2.2060309@gmail.com> <20060125162830.GI726@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <43D7F3C9.7000804@gmail.com> Angel Martin Alganza wrote: >>It's recognized, but not working? In that case, I would suggest trying > > Yes. It says there is a card at ne0 or ne2 (depending on the floppy > set I use) and then asks for the type of interface. I don't really > understand what this question is about but I've tried 2baseT, 10baseT, > and a few other answers somebody at comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc in > Usenet has sugested w/o any success. NE2000-compatibles are all over the map as far as compatibility. Try a different card. I've had good luck under NetBSD with 3com PCMCIA cards. >>a different card. It might be an incompatibility issue with the driver. > > I might do so. I'll try to borrow one and see what comes out. Cool. >>You have to take the fileset tarballs and run them through the split(1) >>command on an existing NetBSD box, and then write them to DOS floppies. >> The instructions are in the install docs. I guarantee you won't like >>it. We're talking about dozens, if not hundreds, of floppies. > > I see... I don't need a full installation. Having Vim, screen and SSH > would do for the use I want to give to my beloved Compaq laptop :-) Even the base set is more floppies than you want to swap. See if you can get a network card working. It's definitely worth the trouble. Peace... Sridhar From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jan 25 16:40:21 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:40:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: RK07 questions - now RK611 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601252247.RAA11282@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> But, if you know what and why to do something, a swap is not a crime. > Our views will differ on this, I suspect :-) I see nothing more wrong with swapping boards than with swapping chips, fundamentally. If I have a machine with a blown cg6, I pull it and pop in another, problem solved. (I have enough spare cg6s that I do not expect to run out in the foreseeable future.) Most of the criticisms of boardswapping I've seen have actually been against *blind* boardswapping, against easter-egg swaps in the hope that they'll perturb the symptom out of immediate existence. I agree that that is, at best, a last resort - but I see nothing wrong with swapping out a bad board, once you're sure it's the board that's bad, any more than I do for any other swappable piece. (Whether it's worth repairing a board depends on lots of things; sometimes, swapping and tossing the bad one is a right answer.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Wed Jan 25 16:48:44 2006 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:48:44 -0800 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: <200601241858.51761.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200601241858.51761.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On 1/24/06, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > > > What's a good free tool for turning scanned pages into a PDF? > > I use "tiffcp" to concatenate individual tiff page scans then use > "tiff2pdf" > to create a pdf. Simple - and all opensource software (i.e. "free") > available > on most Linux and many other *nix systems. This method resulte in a 1.8mb PDF. The pdf seems to be as useful as the one derived by the Steve, presumably from the jpg scans. I scanned in a manual for bitsavers and found that just going with the tif format, fax compress, etc resulted in an average page size that about 1/4 the size or less of jpg images. I scanned in black and white, and that was the thing I liked the least, but for technical documents which are mostly line drawings and text it is about the only way to keep an archive at a managable size. I scanned some pages of other manuals and books I have in black and white grey scale, and I could easily incorporate them into a pdf with an old copy of acrobat I have laying around, with a mix of tif and jpgs. Not what bitsavers prefers, but worked for me on my own documents. If Steve wants this document email me at jwstephens -at- msm -dot- umr -dot- edu and I'll email it. jim From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 25 17:01:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:01:43 -0800 Subject: What are these from? Message-ID: <200601251501430889.2A821495@10.0.0.252> I stumbled (again--that will give you an idea of how well I'm organized) on a couple cards I didn't even know that I had. Anyone got any idea of what they're from? Top view: http://www.sydex.com/photos/bd_top.jpg Bottom view: http://www.sydex.com/photos/bd_bot.jpg Front view: http://www.sydex.com/photos/bd_front.jpg My apologies for the poor quality--I can haul out the tripod and lights if anyone needs a better photo. FWIW, on the larger board, most of the transistors are TI 2N404 or 2N504's. The smaller board has house-numbered WE parts--I'm assuming it's probably from some telco switching equipment. Cheers, Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jan 25 17:16:39 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:16:39 -0000 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006301c62205$66b0c700$5b01a8c0@pc1> jim stephens wrote: > This method resulte in a 1.8mb PDF. The pdf seems to be as useful as > the one derived by the Steve, presumably from the jpg scans. I > scanned in a manual for bitsavers and found that just going with the > tif format, fax compress, etc resulted in an average page size that > about 1/4 the size or less of jpg images. This has been mentioned many times, but JPEG was designed for continuous tone (colour photographs). It is poor-to-bad on B&W, text and line drawings. TIFF + G4 compression wins all the time for B&W and line drawings. > I scanned in black and white, and that was the thing I liked the > least, but for technical documents which are mostly line drawings and > text it is about the only way to keep an archive at a managable size. I've not found a good solution for colour text and line drawings. JPEG still is not the right answer (it still hates those high frequency edges) but other formats I've tried all eat up inordinate amounts of disk space. (The original TIFF scans of some pages of some RSX-11 manauls I did weigh in at 24MB/page!). Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jan 25 17:33:33 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 18:33:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: <006301c62205$66b0c700$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <006301c62205$66b0c700$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <200601252336.SAA11673@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I've not found a good solution for colour text and line drawings. > JPEG still is not the right answer (it still hates those high > frequency edges) but other formats I've tried all eat up inordinate > amounts of disk space. GIF is pretty good, provided you have very low colour depth in an information-theoretical sense - very few distinct colours. (You do need to either be in a jurisdiction where LZW was never patented or the patent has expired, or be using it in accordance with the free license, which as I recall basically means "noncommercial". Or, I suppose, be willing to ignore the patent, but I wouldn't accuse any of us of that.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 25 17:46:46 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:46:46 -0700 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:16:39 +0000. <006301c62205$66b0c700$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: In article <006301c62205$66b0c700$5b01a8c0 at pc1>, "a.carlini at ntlworld.com" writes: > I've not found a good solution for colour text and line drawings. > JPEG still is not the right answer (it still hates those high > frequency edges) but other formats I've tried all eat up > inordinate amounts of disk space. (The original TIFF scans > of some pages of some RSX-11 manauls I did weigh in at 24MB/page!). My theory on why this is so... The scanner is returning a continuous range of colors instead of a single block of solid color. So while everything "looks" like a single shade of turquoise to your eye, its actually a smearing of values that are similar but not identical. The smearing of color values (i.e. turquoise +/- 5%, or whatever) gives bad compression for things like PNG and so-on. The trick is to take your raw scans and put them through a color quantization step before compression them. The idea is to take that spread of colors that is approximately turquoise and quantize them to exactly turquoise. Then when you compress the resulting image, you should have large solid blocks of constant color and should once again get good results from a format like PNG or GIF or TIFF RLE. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 25 17:48:14 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:48:14 -0700 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 25 Jan 2006 18:33:33 -0500. <200601252336.SAA11673@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: In article <200601252336.SAA11673 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, der Mouse writes: > > I've not found a good solution for colour text and line drawings. > > JPEG still is not the right answer (it still hates those high > > frequency edges) but other formats I've tried all eat up inordinate > > amounts of disk space. > > GIF is pretty good, [...] I recommend that you use PNG instead of GIF -- better compression and better features. Besides, I thought the GIF patent had expired everywhere? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 25 19:06:29 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 01:06:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK07 questions - now RK611 questions In-Reply-To: <200601252247.RAA11282@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jan 25, 6 05:40:21 pm Message-ID: > > >> But, if you know what and why to do something, a swap is not a crime. > > Our views will differ on this, I suspect :-) > > I see nothing more wrong with swapping boards than with swapping chips, > fundamentally. If I have a machine with a blown cg6, I pull it and pop > in another, problem solved. (I have enough spare cg6s that I do not > expect to run out in the foreseeable future.) > > Most of the criticisms of boardswapping I've seen have actually been > against *blind* boardswapping, against easter-egg swaps in the hope I would agree. Problem is that to fully test a board is a lot of work (it's a lot more than just running diagnostics (actually, I have a problem with using a non-working device to tell me what's wrong...). You need to check the timing of every signal on the connectors of said board. > that they'll perturb the symptom out of immediate existence. I agree > that that is, at best, a last resort - but I see nothing wrong with > swapping out a bad board, once you're sure it's the board that's bad, > any more than I do for any other swappable piece. (Whether it's worth > repairing a board depends on lots of things; sometimes, swapping and > tossing the bad one is a right answer.) As well all know, it's finding the fault that takes the time. If you've found the fault so that you're sure a particular board is bad, then you (almsot?) always know what's wrong with that board, and can isolate the fault to 2 or 3 components. In which case it's probably quicker to replace just the faulty part than to find the replacement board. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 25 18:45:25 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 00:45:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Homebuilt relay computer In-Reply-To: <200601241701170011.25C92DF1@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 24, 6 05:01:17 pm Message-ID: > IIRC, the big Univac drum used on the 1107/1108 systems (FASTRAND II?) used > a mechanical system to position the heads. Essentially a system of levers > driven by solenoids(?) that decoded a binary signal into an absolute > position. That sort of mechanism was used in some printing telegraph machines. Decoding from n solenoids to 2^n positions of the typewheel. I have a camera here with an analogue version of this. It combines the positions of the shutter speed/film speed dial, the lens aperture ring, and a dial set to the maximum aperture of the lens, and controls the position of the reference pointer for the exposure meter. Olivetti had a really odd mechanism in the TE300 teleprinter. It used a number of cylinders, with offset holes, each cylinder fitting inside the hole of the next larget one. A system of gears and cltuches rotated each cylinder to 1 of 2 postions half a turn apart depending on the state of each input bit. The position of a follower on the largest cylinder was thus determined by all the bits that corolled the cylinders in that mechanism. Anmd then there's the well-knwon Creed combination head with the stack of disks, each one rotated slghtly by a given input bit, and a set of bellcrank levers that fit round the outside such that a different one drops in place for each combination of positions of the input bits. And the ends of these levers stop the rotation of the type wheel at the right place. > ...and then there's the way a Teletype decodes incoming serial data that's > very clever. Mechancial calculating machines are another set of interesting mechanisms to look at ... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 25 18:48:11 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 00:48:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK611 schematics In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22E7@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Jan 25, 6 07:05:58 am Message-ID: > > Great! Thanks Al, and the person that provided them! > I will download them tomorrow and print them. Now I'd better look for my prints so I can follow along.... > I have a day off, to pick up an 11/34 with a LAB-11 and ... an RK07! You'd better not try board-swapping between those 2 RK611s.... More seriously, nice find. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 25 19:02:18 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 01:02:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Homebuilt relay computer In-Reply-To: <200601251552.52007.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Jan 25, 6 03:52:51 pm Message-ID: > > With stnadard relays, you can make a latch with one relay (connect an NO > > contact in series with the coil across the supply). You need to put a > > break contact of some other relay in series with that so as to be able to > > reset the latch > > Or, if there's any resistance in series with that coil, couple a If there's sufficient resistance in series with the coil, you could even direcrly short-circuit the coil through the NO contact of another relay. -tony From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jan 25 20:01:56 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:01:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: RK07 questions - now RK611 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601260216.VAA12675@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Most of the criticisms of boardswapping I've seen have actually been >> against *blind* boardswapping, [...] > I would agree. Problem is that to fully test a board is a lot of > work [...] True. But I don't need to *fully* test the board in order to reach a sufficient level of confidence that that board is what's at fault. But for that matter, to fully test a *chip* is a lot of work, especially if you're trying to test it in-circuit. I'm not sure you can ever be truly certain; after all, your test equipment could have developed interesting flaws of its own. It's just a matter of reaching a sufficient level of confidence to risk applying a fix - trading off the risk that the fix will be wrong against the resources you would have to invest to reduce that risk further. For me, that point is often reached quite quickly. >> [...] - but I see nothing wrong with swapping out a bad board, once >> you're sure it's the board that's bad, [...] I should have said "once you're sufficiently sure". > If you've found the fault so that you're sure a particular board is > bad, then you (almsot?) always know what's wrong with that board, and > can isolate the fault to 2 or 3 components. Well, a lot of the boards I deal with don't even *have* more than 2 or 3 components, unless you count etch runs and connectors as separate components. > In which case it's probably quicker to replace just the faulty part > than to find the replacement board. Except it often isn't, for me, as in my example of the cg6. I don't have the equipment - nor skill to substitute for the lack of it - to replace, say, the Bt458 on a cg6. Nor do I have spare Bt458s, except on other cg6s. But I do have plenty of inract cg6s. Not to say that that's always so. I have some HP-IB gear that I suspect has a blown driver on one of the HP-IB lines. Someday when I scrape together the round tuits I'll poke around - probably here among other places - looking for the information I'd need to track it down and replace it. (Fortunately that stuff is relatively low-density through-hole work, stuff I feel much more competent to do component-level repair on than modern high-density surface-mount.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Jan 25 20:39:34 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 18:39:34 -0800 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <87vewg5h94.fsf@tigerman.ealaddin.org> References: <87vewg5h94.fsf@tigerman.ealaddin.org> Message-ID: Since I'm seeing this 6 days late, I'd guess it was answered already. On the off hand that it hasn't been answered.... > regarding the CGA, the technical manual mentions a 160x200 mode with > more that 4 colors. It doesn't give any more information on how to > enable this mode, though. You mean 160x100, no? The 160x100 mode is an 80x100 color text mode using graphics character 221 (left half on) or 222 (right hand on). You get it by altering the text height register so the text is reduced to two scan lines per row. In essence you fill the screen with character 221 and modify the text attributes (foreground and background color) to set the pixel colors. I suppose it might be possible to get 160x200 on a CGA clone with 32K of RAM rather than 16K. Most "extended CGA" clones came with their own special graphics modes. Here's some screen shots of a game that uses 160x100 mode. http://www.mobygames.com/game/pc-booter/moon-bugs/screenshots/gameShotId,918/ From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Jan 25 20:39:34 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 18:39:34 -0800 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <87vewg5h94.fsf@tigerman.ealaddin.org> References: <87vewg5h94.fsf@tigerman.ealaddin.org> Message-ID: Since I'm seeing this 6 days late, I'd guess it was answered already. On the off hand that it hasn't been answered.... > regarding the CGA, the technical manual mentions a 160x200 mode with > more that 4 colors. It doesn't give any more information on how to > enable this mode, though. You mean 160x100, no? The 160x100 mode is an 80x100 color text mode using graphics character 221 (left half on) or 222 (right hand on). You get it by altering the text height register so the text is reduced to two scan lines per row. In essence you fill the screen with character 221 and modify the text attributes (foreground and background color) to set the pixel colors. I suppose it might be possible to get 160x200 on a CGA clone with 32K of RAM rather than 16K. Most "extended CGA" clones came with their own special graphics modes. Here's some screen shots of a game that uses 160x100 mode. http://www.mobygames.com/game/pc-booter/moon-bugs/screenshots/gameShotId,918/ From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jan 25 21:31:25 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 22:31:25 -0500 Subject: Microsoft doesn't like ClassicCmp? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060124071453.04f14518@mail> References: <43D32ABF.7010303@atarimuseum.com> <20060122095315.080c291f.sastevens@earthlink.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060124071453.04f14518@mail> Message-ID: <43D8428D.6040605@compsys.to> >John Foust wrote: >Google isn't "hoarding" Usenet. They're just one of the >very few companies who treat it as valuable. For that matter, >given the effort it took for them to find the ancient archives >that they did preserve, apparently many other people did not >value those old postings (in toto) as a very few of us do today. > > > Jerome Fine replies: I have attempted to save all posts to alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11 for at least the last 5 years. At one point, I considered comp.os.vms, but there are just TOO many. But the difference between a proper usenet access and google is so incredible (easy for usenet and terrible with google) that I just don't have the time to follow using google. >Most other companies (such as ISPs) no longer value it. >You might as well complain about why DEC and Sun and your >local university aren't supporting a server and a feed. >Gone are the days when you can expect your ISP to provide a >news feed and server. > My local university (University of Toronto) does that with a nunber of text-ONLY groups which don't have too many posts. Included are alt.sys.pdp11 and vmsnet.pdp-11. For that I am VERY pleased. However, since UofT is READ ONLY, and I have not, as yet, subscribed to a paying service after my local ISP dropped usenet, I am still unable to post. Can anyone recommend a completely free service that allows up to about 10 posts a month? I don't need them for reading at the moment, just for posting! If it matters, at the moment I use Netscape 7.2 as my browser under Windows 98 SE. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 25 21:39:03 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:39:03 -0600 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: References: <87vewg5h94.fsf@tigerman.ealaddin.org> Message-ID: <43D84457.2050801@oldskool.org> Eric J Korpela wrote: > I suppose it might be possible to get 160x200 on a CGA clone with 32K > of RAM rather than 16K. Most "extended CGA" clones came with their > own special graphics modes. Nope, I've tried :-) On my AT&T PC 6300, which uses an MC6845 but with 32K RAM (to support the 640x400x2 mode), trying to set one scanline per character cell does nothing, and that is what would be required. I'm not in front of my CGA right now, but I seem to recall that trying to set character cell height to anything other than 8 (the default) 4, or 2 caused loss of screen sync and led to garbled display. It might be possible to tweak other stuff to compensite, like vertical_start and vertical_total, but I haven't tried. I have gotten two graphics-mode video pages to work, but it's odd: vertical_start and vertical_total adjustment don't take long to garble, but horizontal start and horizontal total can take a ton of punishment. The most usuable mode I got was 160x200 4 colors, two video pages, but displayed as a COLUMN that was CENTERED in the middle of the screen. Odd, but at least it was stable :-) > Here's some screen shots of a game that uses 160x100 mode. > http://www.mobygames.com/game/pc-booter/moon-bugs/screenshots/gameShotId,918/ For even more interesting effects, look at: http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/seven-spirits-of-ra/screenshots/gameShotId,10453/ Same technique, but using *all* characters instead of just the half-bar characters. Starts to resemble Spectrum graphics at that point. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 25 22:33:08 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:33:08 -0700 Subject: LA-30(?) spare boards Message-ID: Has a buy-it-now of $50, which seems reasonable if you have a busted LA30 or something similar that uses these modules. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu Jan 26 03:31:02 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:31:02 +0100 Subject: RK611 schematics Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF264A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > > Great! Thanks Al, and the person that provided them! > > I will download them tomorrow and print them. > > Now I'd better look for my prints so I can follow along.... Thanks! I have the 3 dual width extenders already next to the machine! > > I have a day off, to pick up an 11/34 with a LAB-11 > > and ... an RK07! > > You'd better not try board-swapping between those 2 > RK611s.... More seriously, nice find. The idea crossed my mind :-) , but is was not board swapping ... I thought of swapping the whole RK611 backplane and modules, because the hauled machine was in working condition decommisioned. The RK611 that I have installed is completely unknown. I had the RK611 backplane already a few years, and I got the 5 modules just last year, not known-good, but neither "known-bad". There is not much learning experience in any swap approach, be it a module or a complete system unit, so I downloaded the RK611 print set ... - thanks again, Al. A more complete description: it is an 11/34 with RX01, RK05/f, RK05/j, Laboratory Peripheral System, Kennedy 9100 (vertical) tape drive, expansion BA11 box and one RK07. We did lock the RK05 heads before moving of course. (We = Edward and I). There is also a "BA11 expansion box sided" box from Plessey, but I have not yet looked at the details of the machine, so that Plessey box is a black box to me at this point. - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu Jan 26 08:28:39 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:28:39 +0100 Subject: RK611 schematics Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2651@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Allright, I had a look at the schematics during the lunchbreak to prepare for some measurements this evening. Let me know if my conclusions from a look at the schematics are ok, so far. On page 'M7900 UNIBUS INTERFACE (UB7)' the databus bit 15 is connected to the tranceiver 8641 (E10) pin 15. If pin 9 (UB7 ENA DATA DRVRS L) is '0', input pin 14 appears inverted at the pin 15. As the diagnostic says that it expects 000200 on reading CS1, and the result is 100200, you can say 2 things: 1) 'problem' with data bit 15 (where ever) 2) as the signal "UB 7 ENA DATA DRVRS L" is common to E3, E10, E11, E2, and E1 that signal must (?) be OK, because that signal enables all other databus bits, which seem OK. So, either E10 (in #14, out #15) is defective, or the problem is already with the signal driving pin 14 ("TS REG BUS 15 H"). Since I don't have a 4-channel 'scope, and I need to follow 3 signals (in/out/enable), I guess I will get out the D100 again. - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From jdbryan at acm.org Thu Jan 26 10:36:27 2006 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 11:36:27 -0500 Subject: Keyboard part # for HP2648A? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200601261636.k0QGaSUh022262@mail.bcpl.net> On 22 Jan 2006 at 9:18, Richard wrote: > Does anyone know the part designation for the keyboard on an HP2648A? >From the "264X Composite Service Manual" (HP 02640-90170), there are three 2648A keyboard assemblies listed: - 02648-60001 - 02648-60005 - 02648-60006 01 is listed for use with "olive black terminals," 05 is listed for "cocoa brown terminals," and 06 is listed the same as 05, but with "RFI opt -017." I believe the RFI option added a short ground strap, terminating in a female quarter-inch spade lug, at the keyboard connector. On 22 Jan 2006 at 12:51, Jay West wrote: > I have three 2648A terminals... one has the keyboard that has tape > drive controls on it. Unfortunately the HP tag is gone from the bottom > of that keyboard. The other two terminals have keyboards labled > 02640-60180, which do not have the tape controls on them. 02640-60180 is listed as the 2640B keyboard assembly. > I'm betting that I got the wrong keyboards when I got the terminal. Indeed so. -- Dave From redodd at comcast.net Thu Jan 26 12:14:32 2006 From: redodd at comcast.net (Ralph E. Dodd) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:14:32 -0500 Subject: Kaypro 10 turbo rom problems Message-ID: <003b01c622a4$5beac010$6501a8c0@mainpc> Hello all, A first note: this machine works perfectly with the original rom (81-302) and hard drive (Seagate ST212). Now to the crazy stuff: I recently got the image and docs for the Kaypro turbo rom ver. 3.4. I've burned the eprom with 2 different burners and the roms match the 8k code when verified. I used a 27c64 and a 2764a. When I install the trom, the machine doesn't access the floppy drive. I get the startup screen for the turbo rom and a flat line cursor about 1/3 the way down the screen on the left side and then the machine hangs, no keyboard etc. This happens with the original hard drive installed or any of 4 other drives that I've tried (Seagate ST225 - brand new, ST277R, ST251, and Mitsubishi MR535. If I put the original rom back in, it boots from the floppy and I can format any of the hard drives mentioned. At one point (original rom in), I formatted the ST225 with the Advent advfmt.com program and it crashed while partitioning and when I put the trom back in, I got a boot error (good news because it saw the hard drive) and the floppy drive lit up. I rebooted with a floppy and was able format the hard drive successfully and copy programs to the 3 partitions - 8, 8, & 4 megs. I was filling up the second partition when I got a few bad sector errors so I decided to use one of the bigger drives that I have. This wasn't a good move because now the trom won't access the floppy again. Does any of this make sense? Thanks for listening. Ralph From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Thu Jan 26 12:25:26 2006 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:25:26 +0100 Subject: the Epson QX-10 in general was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <200601261800.k0QI02kp093338@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601261800.k0QI02kp093338@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43D91416.5080408@xs4all.nl> cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > was the graphics card standard equipment? My guess is >no. I do have one, but don't feel like excavating at > Yes, graphics was standard. >the moment. And it does have the Titan 8088 >board...I'm told. It was a gift :). Anyone got >software for it? > http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/qx10/disklibrary.html or http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/epson/~fjkraan/comp/qx10/disklibrary.html Most images originally came from Don Maslin. Fred Jan From news at computercollector.com Thu Jan 26 13:31:58 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:31:58 -0500 Subject: VCF East 3.0 exhibit registration is now open In-Reply-To: <002c01c62070$dd178550$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <003701c622af$2c9018a0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> FYI, we'll only have room for about 21 exhibits, so sign up soon!! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 6:01 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: VCF East 3.0 exhibit registration is now open Hi all -- Sellam fixed his web site (there was a drive crash) -- and so VCF East 3.0 exhibit registration is now open. If you signed up for an exhibit already, you'll have to do so again. Sorry. The link is http://www.vintage.org/2006/east/exhibit.php For those who might be wondering, the reason I'm making this announcement instead of Sellam is because I run the local club hosting this edition of VCF. After all my newsletter just isn't * enough * extra work each week! ;) A refresher: VCF East is no longer in the Boston area. It moved to the InfoAge Learning Center (http://www.infoage.org) located in Wall, NJ, which is on the NJ coast about one hour east of Trenton, south of Newark, and north of Atlantic City. It's very easy to reach from the I-95 corridor or from the west via Pennsylvania. This edition is a ONE-DAY event (Saturday, March 13) but it will be a loooong day. The prices aren't yet determined but they will be fair and in line with past rates. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Jan 26 14:32:26 2006 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:32:26 -0600 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: <200601251604.k0PG4D9K076161@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601251604.k0PG4D9K076161@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 10:04 -0600 1/25/06, Richard wrote: >What's a good free tool for turning scanned pages into a PDF? PStill! http://www.wizards.de/~frank/pstill.html Of course, the free version runs on classic NeXT hardware! Not affiliated, but I have a pretty high regard for some of Frank's other work which I use on my NeXT. -- - Mark 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 26 06:46:03 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:46:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK07 questions - now RK611 questions In-Reply-To: <200601260216.VAA12675@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jan 25, 6 09:01:56 pm Message-ID: > Except it often isn't, for me, as in my example of the cg6. I don't > have the equipment - nor skill to substitute for the lack of it - to > replace, say, the Bt458 on a cg6. Nor do I have spare Bt458s, except I assume this isa RAMDAC. Ins't it just a normal PGA package, not that hard to replace? > on other cg6s. But I do have plenty of inract cg6s. This brings up another point. If you do component-level repair, then a single replacement board might act as donor to repair more than one machine (if the faults are different in the 2 defective machines). Or of course you might be able to get the right part from a totally differnt machine (at least one of my S100 RAM boards was fixed with a delay line raided from a no-name PC/AT motherboard..) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 26 06:50:19 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:50:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK611 schematics In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF264A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Jan 26, 6 10:31:02 am Message-ID: > There is also a "BA11 expansion box sided" box from Plessey, but > I have not yet looked at the details of the machine, so that > Plessey box is a black box to me at this point. Plessey made various Unibus (and Qbus?) devices that were more-or-less DEC compaatible. At least one of the RAM boards in my 11/45 is a Plessey. I also have a PLessey 10.5" high expeansio box on that machine. It's nicer than the DEC one in that you can fit 3 9 slot backplanes across it (or 6 4 slot). The power distribution is non-standard (9 pin mate-n-locks for each backplane) but that's easy to sort out. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 26 07:59:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:59:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK611 schematics In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2651@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Jan 26, 6 03:28:39 pm Message-ID: > > Allright, I had a look at the schematics during the lunchbreak > to prepare for some measurements this evening. Let me know if > my conclusions from a look at the schematics are ok, so far. Stage 1, from the Wirelist at the start of the printset, we see that BUS D15 goes to slot 8 (the M7900 Unibus Interface) and to no other boards in the controller. The other pins listed for this run are for the MUD/SPC slots and the Unibus In/Out connectors. > > On page 'M7900 UNIBUS INTERFACE (UB7)' the databus bit 15 is > connected to the tranceiver 8641 (E10) pin 15. Yes, with you so far. > If pin 9 (UB7 ENA DATA DRVRS L) is '0', input pin 14 appears > inverted at the pin 15. Yes, and note that that input (pin 14) is driven by tri-state drivers all over the place!). It goes onto the backplane and seems to go to all the other cards. And it can be driven on the Unibus Interface board (sheet UB5, output of E16d (pin 12 of E16, a 74LS257). > > As the diagnostic says that it expects 000200 on reading CS1, > and the result is 100200, you can say 2 things: > 1) 'problem' with data bit 15 (where ever) > 2) as the signal "UB 7 ENA DATA DRVRS L" is common to E3, E10, > E11, E2, and E1 that signal must (?) be OK, because that > signal enables all other databus bits, which seem OK. > > So, either E10 (in #14, out #15) is defective, or the problem > is already with the signal driving pin 14 ("TS REG BUS 15 H"). Let's look at E16 (sheet UB5). That mux is concerned with reading the CSR1 (the register where the diagnostics first found a problem) and the BA (Bus Address) register. I think of it as 3 posibilities 1) The bus driver is defective and always outputing a low (==1 on the Unibus). Unlikely becuase it's clearly not _stuck_ low, or the machine could never work at all. It would mess up memory reads, etc 2) The address decoding logic, or E16, is defective, and we're not actually reading the UB5 CONTR ERROR H signal on that bit. But it appears we are reading the right values for the other bits in that register, so this is unlikely too (much of the logic is common to all bits, after all). 3) UB5 CONTR ERROR H is actually a logic 1 (high). This would be easy to check with a logic probe. It comes from E46a (also on sheet UB5), a 7474 D-type. It's used here as an SR flip-flop. It's cleared by the UB1 CONTR CLR L signal (which is what the diagnostic attemtped to assert, look at sheet UB1 to see how that's produced), it's set by the gates around that FF on the schematic. Note that if the SET input is held asseted (low), then UB1 CONTR CLR L will not be able to permanently reset this bit. So what I'd do@ 1) Put a logic probe on the output of E46 and run that diagnostic. Is that pin high all the time (ignore a possible narrow low pulse when the thing actually tries to reset it). If not, in particular if it's low when the diagnostic gives the error, then go forward to E16, etc. 2) If it's high, then check you do get the reset pulse on the RESET input. Just to eliminate open PCB tracks, etc. 3) And then look at the set input. If it's sitting high, then suspect E46. 4) But if it's low, then something is trying to set that flipflop. look at UB2 CONTR TIMOUT (1) H (high to set it), RS6 COMBINED ERROR L, CN5 COMBINED EROR L, DA3 COMBINED ERROR L, DR6 COMBINED ERROR L (each one would set the FF if it was low), and trace back from there. When we've found the defective signal, we can trace back further into the logic. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 26 15:40:01 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:40:01 -0700 Subject: PCMCIA ethernet adapters & modems Message-ID: Anyone want one? Work is discarding out about 70 of them. There are a fair number of associated cable dongles, but I can't promise that I would be able to get a cable dongle for every ethernet adapter. For the modems it looks like they all have xjacks. In 1 hr. 20 min. is when the stuff is open for all, so please reply promptly. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 26 15:43:51 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:43:51 -0700 Subject: RK07 questions - now RK611 questions In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:46:03 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > on other cg6s. But I do have plenty of inract cg6s. > > This brings up another point. If you do component-level repair, then a > single replacement board might act as donor to repair more than one > machine [...] Yeah, I have considered that too. Being lazy, I would probably opt for swapping out a board with a bad component before I would try to repair/replace the individual component. For instance, I have some spare Lilith boards, including one marked "bad", but given that boards for these machines are so rare, I am not going to chuck the board marked "bad" in case it comes in handy for a future repair. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 26 15:50:14 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:50:14 -0700 Subject: [rescue] PCMCIA ethernet adapters & modems In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:40:01 -0700. Message-ID: > Anyone want one? Work is discarding out about 70 of them. There are > a fair number of associated cable dongles, but I can't promise that I > would be able to get a cable dongle for every ethernet adapter. For > the modems it looks like they all have xjacks. > > In 1 hr. 20 min. is when the stuff is open for all, so please reply > promptly. Addendum: I'm not selling them, they are free for local pickup (I'm in Salt Lake City, 84106), or for the cost of shipping. I will post back after I know how many I've gotten. There are also random PCI/ISA video cards, PCI/ISA ethernet cards and a DLT tape library machine with 3 tape drives, 2 of them broken, and scads of DLT tapes (I think that's the name of the tape; they are in squarish plastic cartridges on shelves in the tape library). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 26 15:58:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:58:03 -0800 Subject: PCMCIA ethernet adapters & modems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601261358030628.2F6E0EB4@10.0.0.252> On 1/26/2006 at 2:40 PM Richard wrote: >Anyone want one? Work is discarding out about 70 of them. There are >a fair number of associated cable dongles, but I can't promise that I >would be able to get a cable dongle for every ethernet adapter. For >the modems it looks like they all have xjacks. > >In 1 hr. 20 min. is when the stuff is open for all, so please reply >promptly. >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Jan 26 16:04:20 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:04:20 -0600 Subject: [rescue] PCMCIA ethernet adapters & modems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43D94764.1020104@mdrconsult.com> Richard wrote: > There are also random PCI/ISA video cards, PCI/ISA ethernet cards and > a DLT tape library machine with 3 tape drives, 2 of them broken, and > scads of DLT tapes (I think that's the name of the tape; they are in > squarish plastic cartridges on shelves in the tape library). I'd like to have all the Trident, Oak, or Number 9 ISA video cards I can get. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 26 16:08:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:08:56 -0800 Subject: Slippery fingers Message-ID: <200601261408560507.2F780503@10.0.0.252> Sorry about that last post, folks--hit "send" instead of "close". --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 26 16:23:07 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:23:07 -0700 Subject: TK70 tape drive media? Message-ID: What do you use in this thing? I've got a VAX 4000/300 with a TK70, but it didn't come with any media and I'm wondering what I should be looking for to feed it :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 26 16:24:17 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:24:17 -0700 Subject: [rescue] PCMCIA ethernet adapters & modems In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:19:07 -0800. Message-ID: Addendum addendum: apparently the DLT tapes were left in the library as an oversight and they are not being offered... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 26 16:24:31 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:24:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK07 questions - now RK611 questions In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 26, 6 02:43:51 pm Message-ID: > > This brings up another point. If you do component-level repair, then a > > single replacement board might act as donor to repair more than one > > machine [...] > > Yeah, I have considered that too. Being lazy, I would probably opt > for swapping out a board with a bad component before I would try to I'm lazy too, which is one reason I replace componments and not boards. It's less effort to find a replacement chip (in a box near my workbench) than to find the replacement board (if I have it, it'll probably involve moving several other machines to get to it...) > repair/replace the individual component. For instance, I have some > spare Lilith boards, including one marked "bad", but given that boards It saddens me that anyone would conasider board-swapping a machine as beautiful as that. > for these machines are so rare, I am not going to chuck the board > marked "bad" in case it comes in handy for a future repair. Reminds me of one of my HP9910s. It had clearly been owned by a board-swapper, and it had been the donor for spare boards. Fortunately, the defective boards were not thrown out, they were stuck in this machine. Some of the boards had a cross drwan on them... When I got it, there were daults on 3 of the 4 CPU boards, all 3 of the memory control boards (fortunately the ROM and RAM boards themselves were fine), the display board and the keyboard encoder. And yes, I did track them all down in the end.... -tony From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Jan 26 16:23:59 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:23:59 -0600 Subject: [rescue] PCMCIA ethernet adapters & modems In-Reply-To: <43D94764.1020104@mdrconsult.com> References: <43D94764.1020104@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <43D94BFF.6030906@mdrconsult.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > Richard wrote: > >> There are also random PCI/ISA video cards, PCI/ISA ethernet cards and >> a DLT tape library machine with 3 tape drives, 2 of them broken, and >> scads of DLT tapes (I think that's the name of the tape; they are in >> squarish plastic cartridges on shelves in the tape library). > > > I'd like to have all the Trident, Oak, or Number 9 ISA video cards I > can get. Ummm, "all I can get" being 3 each or less.... ;) Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Jan 26 16:26:46 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:26:46 -0600 Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43D94CA6.1060802@mdrconsult.com> Richard wrote: > What do you use in this thing? I've got a VAX 4000/300 with a TK70, > but it didn't come with any media and I'm wondering what I should be > looking for to feed it :) *moan* Here we go again... Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 26 16:30:07 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:30:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 26, 2006 03:23:07 PM Message-ID: <200601262230.k0QMU7qR005246@onyx.spiritone.com> > What do you use in this thing? I've got a VAX 4000/300 with a TK70, > but it didn't come with any media and I'm wondering what I should be > looking for to feed it :) Compact Tape II's (aka TK70's :^) Might be easier to find a TK50 drive, and controller, or get a CD-ROM hooked in there. I have to question weather a TK70 is worth the effort in this day and age, unless you're trying to *read* tapes. Sadly, TK50's are still worth the trouble, at least on a PDP-11. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 26 16:30:36 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:30:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: <43D94CA6.1060802@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Jan 26, 2006 04:26:46 PM Message-ID: <200601262230.k0QMUbEY005265@onyx.spiritone.com> > > Richard wrote: > > What do you use in this thing? I've got a VAX 4000/300 with a TK70, > > but it didn't come with any media and I'm wondering what I should be > > looking for to feed it :) > > *moan* > > Here we go again... > > > Doc > ???? Zane From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 26 16:31:00 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:31:00 -0700 Subject: RK07 questions - now RK611 questions In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:24:31 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > I'm lazy too, which is one reason I replace componments and not boards. > It's less effort to find a replacement chip (in a box near my workbench) > than to find the replacement board (if I have it, it'll probably involve > moving several other machines to get to it...) For stuff I have, its more likely that I would be able to find a replacement board than a replacement chip. > > repair/replace the individual component. For instance, I have some > > spare Lilith boards, including one marked "bad", but given that boards > > It saddens me that anyone would conasider board-swapping a machine as > beautiful as that. A board swap is a repair I can do (obviously I have to have a spare board). A component debug/replace is not something that is easily within my grasp. Which would make you sadder: that I swapped a board, or that the machine became dysfunctional and never ran again? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Jan 26 16:31:50 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:31:50 -0600 Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: <200601262230.k0QMU7qR005246@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200601262230.k0QMU7qR005246@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <43D94DD6.3080105@mdrconsult.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>What do you use in this thing? I've got a VAX 4000/300 with a TK70, >>but it didn't come with any media and I'm wondering what I should be >>looking for to feed it :) > > > Compact Tape II's (aka TK70's :^) > > Might be easier to find a TK50 drive, and controller, or get a CD-ROM hooked > in there. I have to question weather a TK70 is worth the effort in this day > and age, unless you're trying to *read* tapes. Sadly, TK50's are still > worth the trouble, at least on a PDP-11. I've had good luck with a TK50 attached to a TK70 controller. Much, much faster than the original controller. Doc From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 26 16:33:28 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:33:28 -0700 Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 26 Jan 2006 14:30:07 -0800. <200601262230.k0QMU7qR005246@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: In article <200601262230.k0QMU7qR005246 at onyx.spiritone.com>, "Zane H. Healy" writes: > > What do you use in this thing? I've got a VAX 4000/300 with a TK70, > > but it didn't come with any media and I'm wondering what I should be > > looking for to feed it :) > > Compact Tape II's (aka TK70's :^) > > Might be easier to find a TK50 drive, and controller, or get a CD-ROM hooked > in there. I have to question weather a TK70 is worth the effort in this day > and age, unless you're trying to *read* tapes. Sadly, TK50's are still > worth the trouble, at least on a PDP-11. That's kinda what I figured. It looked like a weird DEC proprietary form factor for the media. A quick google didn't turn up any obvious discussion of the media. The machine has ethernet and I'm not sure, but it might also have a SCSI interface. With ethernet I can get data into/out of the machine (heck, even the console interface can do that, but ethernet would be more expedient). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Jan 26 16:32:41 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:32:41 -0600 Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: <200601262230.k0QMUbEY005265@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200601262230.k0QMUbEY005265@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <43D94E09.1080806@mdrconsult.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>Richard wrote: >> >>>What do you use in this thing? I've got a VAX 4000/300 with a TK70, >>>but it didn't come with any media and I'm wondering what I should be >>>looking for to feed it :) >> >> *moan* >> >> Here we go again... > > ???? The huge cyclic "bulk-erased TK50 media" discussion? Doc From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jan 26 16:39:12 2006 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:39:12 EST Subject: TK70 tape drive media? Message-ID: <247.5db306b.310aa990@aol.com> If you need a a few TK50 carts, I have some. In a message dated 1/26/2006 5:25:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, legalize at xmission.com writes: What do you use in this thing? I've got a VAX 4000/300 with a TK70, but it didn't come with any media and I'm wondering what I should be looking for to feed it :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty _http://pilgrimage.scene.org_ (http://pilgrimage.scene.org) From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jan 26 16:55:15 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:55:15 -0500 Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601261755.15568.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 26 January 2006 17:33, Richard wrote: > In article <200601262230.k0QMU7qR005246 at onyx.spiritone.com>, > > "Zane H. Healy" writes: > > > What do you use in this thing? I've got a VAX 4000/300 with a > > > TK70, but it didn't come with any media and I'm wondering what I > > > should be looking for to feed it :) > > > > Compact Tape II's (aka TK70's :^) > > > > Might be easier to find a TK50 drive, and controller, or get a > > CD-ROM hooked in there. I have to question weather a TK70 is worth > > the effort in this day and age, unless you're trying to *read* > > tapes. Sadly, TK50's are still worth the trouble, at least on a > > PDP-11. > > That's kinda what I figured. It looked like a weird DEC proprietary > form factor for the media. A quick google didn't turn up any obvious If by "proprietary DEC formfactor", you mean "looks like a DLT tape", then yes. BTW, just any old DLT tape (probably) won't work in the drive. You need to find a TK50 or TK70 cartridge. As Doc alluded to, you can maybe possibly probably use bulk-erased TK50 tapes as if they were TK70 tapes, but it's a topic for a lot of disagreement... almost like "do 3.5" HD floppies work reliably as DD floppies?". > discussion of the media. The machine has ethernet and I'm not sure, > but it might also have a SCSI interface. With ethernet I can get > data into/out of the machine (heck, even the console interface can do > that, but ethernet would be more expedient). Depending on what OS you run, you may want a real QBUS ethernet card. I've had limited (read: horrible) luck using the onboard ethernet on my 4000/300 with NetBSD. I'm not sure if that's because of the controller design, or whether my machine has issues. VMS might have better luck. BTW, the male-HD50 "SCSI" connector on the 4000/300 is NOT SCSI, it's DSSI, and while somewhat similar electrically, they're nowhere near similar enough to be able to take a normal SCSI drive and connect it to the bus. I tried that once, and ended up having to replace the terminator fuses on the CPU. Also, NetBSD doesn't have DSSI support, partly because DEC didn't do a very good job of documenting it, and it's a fairly complex protocol, even compared to something like SCSI. You might have a QBUS SCSI card though. KZQSA's are somewhat common on the pedestal VAX 4000's for controlling a CDROM drive.... note that while that works OK with VMS, it isn't supported as far as I know under NetBSD, etc, and the interface was designed poorly enough that you can't reliably run more than about 1 (or maybe 2) device(s) off of it. You might also have a 3rd party SCSI controller, which *would* allow you to connect SCSI disks to it, and be supported under more than just VMS. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jan 26 16:59:40 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:59:40 -0000 Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c622cc$321d4690$5b01a8c0@pc1> Richard wrote: > A quick google didn't turn up any obvious > discussion of the media. Next time avoid google.cn and try google.com :-) Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jan 26 17:01:21 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:01:21 -0000 Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: <200601262230.k0QMU7qR005246@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <000701c622cc$6e7b87a0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Might be easier to find a TK50 drive, and controller, or get a CD-ROM > hooked in there. I have to question weather a TK70 is worth the > effort in this day and age, unless you're trying to *read* tapes. > Sadly, TK50's are still worth the trouble, at least on a PDP-11. Am I missing something? Is TK70 media actually tougherto find that TK50 media? I've got a healthy supply of both (and I don't use either for backup) but this is the first time I've heard anyone suggest "TK70 bad, TK50 good"! Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 26 17:12:51 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:12:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: <000701c622cc$6e7b87a0$5b01a8c0@pc1> from "a.carlini@ntlworld.com" at Jan 26, 2006 11:01:21 PM Message-ID: <200601262312.k0QNCpm9006390@onyx.spiritone.com> > > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Might be easier to find a TK50 drive, and controller, or get a CD-ROM > > hooked in there. I have to question weather a TK70 is worth the > > effort in this day and age, unless you're trying to *read* tapes. > > Sadly, TK50's are still worth the trouble, at least on a PDP-11. > > Am I missing something? Is TK70 media actually tougherto > find that TK50 media? I've got a healthy supply of both > (and I don't use either for backup) but this is the first > time I've heard anyone suggest "TK70 bad, TK50 good"! > > Antonio It has been my experience that TK70 media is a lot harder to find than TK50 media (I have 2-3 large boxes of TK50's, but only about 8 TK70's). Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 26 17:13:50 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:13:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: <43D94DD6.3080105@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Jan 26, 2006 04:31:50 PM Message-ID: <200601262313.k0QNDoSR006437@onyx.spiritone.com> > > Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>What do you use in this thing? I've got a VAX 4000/300 with a TK70, > >>but it didn't come with any media and I'm wondering what I should be > >>looking for to feed it :) > > > > > > Compact Tape II's (aka TK70's :^) > > > > Might be easier to find a TK50 drive, and controller, or get a CD-ROM hooked > > in there. I have to question weather a TK70 is worth the effort in this day > > and age, unless you're trying to *read* tapes. Sadly, TK50's are still > > worth the trouble, at least on a PDP-11. > > I've had good luck with a TK50 attached to a TK70 controller. Much, > much faster than the original controller. > > > Doc > I'd forgotten about that, I think that says something about how often I use TK50's or TK70's these days. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 26 17:14:35 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:14:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: <43D94E09.1080806@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Jan 26, 2006 04:32:41 PM Message-ID: <200601262314.k0QNEZ0s006467@onyx.spiritone.com> > Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>Richard wrote: > >> > >>>What do you use in this thing? I've got a VAX 4000/300 with a TK70, > >>>but it didn't come with any media and I'm wondering what I should be > >>>looking for to feed it :) > >> > >> *moan* > >> > >> Here we go again... > > > > ???? > > The huge cyclic "bulk-erased TK50 media" discussion? > > Doc I've obviously been lucky enough not to have noticed that discussion. How odd. Zane From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 26 18:12:19 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:12:19 -0700 Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:55:15 -0500. <200601261755.15568.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200601261755.15568.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > If by "proprietary DEC formfactor", you mean "looks like a DLT tape", > then yes. I don't really know anything about the various tape form factors. I can recognize 9-track :-) and I can recognize QIC cartridges, but beyond that I'm at a loss. Oh yeah, I can also recognize audio and video cassettes :-). > Depending on what OS you run, you may want a real QBUS ethernet card. Its got VMS on it and I wasn't planning on changing that. I was actually interested in learning a little about VMS since I never used it. > BTW, the male-HD50 "SCSI" connector on the 4000/300 is NOT SCSI, it's > DSSI, [...] Right. This is the connector on the far left. However, this machine has another card adjacent to the slot with the 2 DSSI connectors that has what looks like a SCSI connector. I have to inspect the machine more carefully to identify it for certain. > You might have a QBUS SCSI card though. KZQSA's are somewhat common on > the pedestal VAX 4000's for controlling a CDROM drive.... note that > while that works OK with VMS, it isn't supported as far as I know under > NetBSD, etc, and the interface was designed poorly enough that you > can't reliably run more than about 1 (or maybe 2) device(s) off of it. Yeah, my guess was that it would be a SCSI controller for a CD-ROM. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Jan 26 18:19:01 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:19:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [rescue] PCMCIA ethernet adapters & modems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060127001901.145CA58113@mail.wordstock.com> > > > There are also random PCI/ISA video cards, PCI/ISA ethernet cards and > a DLT tape library machine with 3 tape drives, 2 of them broken, and > scads of DLT tapes (I think that's the name of the tape; they are in > squarish plastic cartridges on shelves in the tape library). I am interested in the DLT tape library machine... Do you know its capacity? Thanks, Bryan From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jan 26 18:19:43 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:19:43 -0000 Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000f01c622d7$607cea30$5b01a8c0@pc1> Richard wrote: > Right. This is the connector on the far left. However, this machine > has another card adjacent to the slot with the 2 DSSI connectors that > has what looks like a SCSI connector. I have to inspect the machine > more carefully to identify it for certain. Many moons ago someone I know mistook the connector on a CXY08 (multiple serial line card) for a SCSI-1 connector! So do check carefully. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jan 26 18:56:08 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:56:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 26, 2006 05:12:19 PM Message-ID: <200601270056.k0R0u9Iv008977@onyx.spiritone.com> > > If by "proprietary DEC formfactor", you mean "looks like a DLT tape", > > then yes. > > I don't really know anything about the various tape form factors. I > can recognize 9-track :-) and I can recognize QIC cartridges, but > beyond that I'm at a loss. Oh yeah, I can also recognize audio and > video cassettes :-). The current generation SDLT2 tapes support about 600GB per tape, the next generation are supposed to go up to 1.2TB. Audio tapes have been used in computers since at least the 70's. Most old home PC's used them, and 4mm DAT tapes are still a popular backup format. The frightening thing is, there were high-end backup devices that used data grade VHS tapes to store *massive* amounts of data in the mid-90's. Zane From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Jan 26 21:09:52 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:09:52 -0800 Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <20060124230933.40751.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060124230933.40751.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 1/24/06, Chris M wrote: > I've been dying to ask this question. Can you > actually learn something (hopefully a whole lot!) > about a chip if you actually did this??? What if there > was some old chip for which there is no documentation. > If, given the availability of the proper equipment > (surface grinder?), you were able to take off say > .0001" of material at a time, or thereabouts ;), would > you have the ability to photograph it, and have > something in the way of a working schematic? I don't know if features would be immediately identifiable, but with some work it should be possible. I know of a company that was attempting to build silicon debugger using a high speed image intensified camera to watch photons emitted by the transistors as they pass current. Should work for reverse engineering... Given a couple years and $500,000 I could probably build you one.... Then again I would imagine that the device is patented. Eric From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Thu Jan 26 21:55:49 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 20:55:49 -0700 (MST) Subject: [rescue] PCMCIA ethernet adapters & modems Message-ID: <1138334149.43d999c5145c4@www.jblaser.org> >Anyone want one? Work is discarding out about 70 of them. There are >a fair number of associated cable dongles, but I can't promise that I >would be able to get a cable dongle for every ethernet adapter. For >the modems it looks like they all have xjacks. > I know this is a late response (I didn't see your posting until now), but, yes, I'll take a handful (dozen?). I find that I not only use these PCMCIA ethernet/modem cards...I use them *UP* and they occassionally die on me. Still, I find that using a couple of old Pentium class laptops for my basement web and email servers is the way to go. (This topic was a recent discussion item a month or so ago.) They come with their own UPS (battery pack) and they are quiet, and draw very little juice. So, yeah, I'll take a stash of potential replacement network cards, dongles would be nice. For some reason a 24/7 situation with these kind of PCMCIA cards tends to wear them out over a 6 to 12 month span. I just had to replace one a month ago. A handy stash would be very welcome. Let me know if you were able to snag these cards, and we'll work out pickup arrangements. I'm actually in Utah County. Thanks. J. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 26 22:21:10 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:21:10 -0700 Subject: [rescue] PCMCIA ethernet adapters & modems In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:19:01 -0500. <20060127001901.145CA58113@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: In article <20060127001901.145CA58113 at mail.wordstock.com>, bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) writes: > > There are also random PCI/ISA video cards, PCI/ISA ethernet cards and > > a DLT tape library machine with 3 tape drives, 2 of them broken, and > > scads of DLT tapes (I think that's the name of the tape; they are in > > squarish plastic cartridges on shelves in the tape library). > > I am interested in the DLT tape library machine... Do you know its > capacity? Its large and heavy :-). I don't know how many tapes it holds, I'd guess about 50-60. I can find out tomorrow. This is a huge beast (tape loading mechanism works fine, 2 drives dead, 1 drive working) that noone wants. A service contract on it is prohibitive. Noone at work wants to haul it out for scrap. If one of you guys want to pay freight shipping, its yours for the cost of shipping. I saw Sridhar's email to me first, so he's got first call on it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 26 22:24:03 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:24:03 -0700 Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:09:52 -0800. Message-ID: On 1/24/06, Chris M wrote: > I've been dying to ask this question. Can you > actually learn something (hopefully a whole lot!) > about a chip if you actually did this??? What if there > was some old chip for which there is no documentation. > If, given the availability of the proper equipment > (surface grinder?), you were able to take off say > .0001" of material at a time, or thereabouts ;), would > you have the ability to photograph it, and have > something in the way of a working schematic? Aren't there chips (i.e. crypto) that are designed to be destroyed if they are disassembled? I don't know what they do to the package, but if I had an IC with an EPROM containing my crypto keys, I'd want the chip to self-destruct during an attempt to pry open the package :). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 26 22:25:27 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:25:27 -0700 Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:19:43 +0000. <000f01c622d7$607cea30$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: In article <000f01c622d7$607cea30$5b01a8c0 at pc1>, "a.carlini at ntlworld.com" writes: > Richard wrote: > > > Right. This is the connector on the far left. However, this machine > > has another card adjacent to the slot with the 2 DSSI connectors that > > has what looks like a SCSI connector. I have to inspect the machine > > more carefully to identify it for certain. > > Many moons ago someone I know mistook the connector on a CXY08 > (multiple serial line card) for a SCSI-1 connector! So do > check carefully. Let me check exactly what's there: it has the two DSSI bus connectors on the console panel and the two connectors at the far left for DSSI bus 0. There are two covered slots and then a slot with two identical connectors that look like SCSI connectors. In between them is an MMJ connector. The board has a label on it that says MUA on the bottom and '2' on the top. I'm guessing this is a VMS device designator for 2 device units, with device one on the bottom and device 2 on the top. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 26 23:21:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:21:00 -0800 Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601262121000961.31039E90@10.0.0.252> On 1/26/2006 at 9:24 PM Richard wrote: >Aren't there chips (i.e. crypto) that are designed to be destroyed >if they are disassembled? I don't know what they do to the package, >but if I had an IC with an EPROM containing my crypto keys, I'd want >the chip to self-destruct during an attempt to pry open the package I don't know about grinding, but the guy at MIT who figured out the Xbox innards did something of the sort (regardless, it's a great read): http://www.xenatera.com/bunnie/proj/anatak/xboxmod.html The operative term is "decapsulating"; if you google on it, you can find some interesting stuff, like: http://www.smtinfocus.com/technical_papers_list.html Cheers, Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jan 26 23:27:16 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:27:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <200601262121000961.31039E90@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > I don't know about grinding, but the guy at MIT who figured out the Xbox > innards did something of the sort (regardless, it's a great read): A guy I went to school with does this for Motorola. He gets chips back that are failing in the field and dissects them to find out what went wrong. I think the actual process involves shaving rather than grinding. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jan 26 23:48:07 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:48:07 -0500 Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601270048.07352.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 26 January 2006 23:25, Richard wrote: > In article <000f01c622d7$607cea30$5b01a8c0 at pc1>, > > "a.carlini at ntlworld.com" writes: > > Richard wrote: > > > Right. This is the connector on the far left. However, this machine > > > has another card adjacent to the slot with the 2 DSSI connectors that > > > has what looks like a SCSI connector. I have to inspect the machine > > > more carefully to identify it for certain. > > > > Many moons ago someone I know mistook the connector on a CXY08 > > (multiple serial line card) for a SCSI-1 connector! So do > > check carefully. > > Let me check exactly what's there: it has the two DSSI bus connectors on > the console panel and the two connectors at the far left for DSSI bus 0. > > There are two covered slots and then a slot with two identical connectors > that look like SCSI connectors. In between them is an MMJ connector. > The board has a label on it that says MUA on the bottom and '2' on the > top. I'm guessing this is a VMS device designator for 2 device units, > with device one on the bottom and device 2 on the top. Are there any markings on the board? It's a lot easier to identify boards by name/number, than by general physical description... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 27 01:06:41 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:06:41 -0700 Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 27 Jan 2006 00:48:07 -0500. <200601270048.07352.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200601270048.07352.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > Are there any markings on the board? It's a lot easier to identify boards by > name/number, than by general physical description... It doesn't have any markings on the exterior spine like the TK70 controller. component side: cmd technology, inc chips: cqd-443/tm amd mach130-15jc 2183mpe jumpers marked "diff" "single", 2 sets solder side cqd-440-000 a a/w pcx-440-00 rev.a00 brd pcf-440-00 rev.a00 b70-23741-01 rev.a3 The "single"/"diff" jumpers (single-ended, differential) lead me to believe that this is indeed a SCSI card. However, it sure would be nice to know its official model number. I'm guessing its CQD-440. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From Useddec at aol.com Fri Jan 27 01:48:45 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 02:48:45 EST Subject: TK70 tape drive media? Message-ID: <274.4b78252.310b2a5d@aol.com> I think the board in question is made by CMD Technology CQD 443-tm. The T indicates tape, and the M indicates Disk controller. What did you need it to do? I have both TK50 and 70 interfaces, drives, and media. Paul From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 24 17:01:59 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 15:01:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: what was the first color portable? In-Reply-To: <20060124125426.S22601@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20060124230159.93651.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> something like the TIPPC or the SX64 or whatever. The Altair was a kit thing. You're making my head hurt :( --- Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Chris M wrote: > > to qualify, it would have to be mass produced, not > > just some kludge ;). You know what I mean. In > reality > > What constitutes "mass produced"? > > Would the 1975 Popular Electronics Altair 8800 > qualify as "mass produced"? > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 24 17:09:33 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 15:09:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060124230933.40751.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> > And I was a bit disappointed that > he didn't grind > > down the top of the failed chip to do a proper > repair. :-) I've been dying to ask this question. Can you actually learn something (hopefully a whole lot!) about a chip if you actually did this??? What if there was some old chip for which there is no documentation. If, given the availability of the proper equipment (surface grinder?), you were able to take off say .0001" of material at a time, or thereabouts ;), would you have the ability to photograph it, and have something in the way of a working schematic? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 24 17:13:23 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 15:13:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: the Epson QX-10 in general was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060124231323.2602.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> > Yes it was stanadrd. There was no other video > circuitry. O man that's good news. If you ever get around to scanning the manuals, in your own good time, that would certainly be welcome. Don't know how I'd return the favor. I have some stuph that is long overdue to be scanned, not sure if it's anything you'd be interested in. Possibly COMPLETE set of docs for an AT & T 7300 Unix PC. A few other less interesting things. Thanks for the info. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 25 18:12:54 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:12:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <19056.144.160.5.25.1137613409.squirrel@mail.athenet.net> Message-ID: <20060126001254.38770.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> I really shouldn't get involved in this at all, but I do recall reading, probably in a review in PC Magazine way back, that brown was was uncommon, whatever the h that meant, until the EGA card came out, or something to that effect. If people are seeing it though, then I guess that's the way it is. I personally don't recall seeing too much brown back then, and there certainly wasn't any on my Tandy 2000. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 25 19:03:16 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:03:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060126010316.17391.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> wait a cotton picking minute...isn't there a reference in "Revolution in the Valley" to a game written by Bill Gates with a big BROWN donkey??? I don't own the book, obviously stating from memory. Maybe someone can confirm or deny. --- Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Wait a second -- while your explanation very > completely explains HOW, it > > does not explain WHY. Why did IBM go through all > that trouble to turn > > #6 brown? > > My bet, at the time, it was popular to display > little "landscapes" as > part of system demos. Lower third of the screen > green (for grass) > upper two thirds blue (for sky) some kind of small > building represented > in red (for bricks) and... a tree. You need brown > for the trunk. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From kenblinnn at msn.com Wed Jan 25 21:04:38 2006 From: kenblinnn at msn.com (KEN BLINN) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 20:04:38 -0700 Subject: Kaypro manuals available Message-ID: hi, IM ken blinn IMO looking for a kaypro 2 operation manual and cp/m sbasic manual . I have 1 WordStar floppy . can you help me thank you ken blinn p s can you help me find some floppy to use on it From Wes.Goodwin at goodwinengineering.com Tue Jan 24 16:31:56 2006 From: Wes.Goodwin at goodwinengineering.com (Wes Goodwin) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:31:56 -0600 Subject: 7 track tape drives Message-ID: Dear Sir, Do you still have any of the old tape drives referenced in your message? If so I am interested. Thanks. Wes Goodwin Well, I went through the hardware I have at home and here is the list. Most of the stuff hasn't been turned on for over 10 years, probably more like 15. It has been in my workshop/basement, so it is pretty dry. The list of manuals will come later. The list of tape drives at work will come after that, but those (I think) are all 9 track, as are most of these. Anyway, here is the list of drives/controllers/formatters. Kennedy 9220 (192-9220-066) two cables, and a Kennedy 5427 mounted on the back. Formatter maybe. Cipher F880 1600/3200 BPI, 100/50/25 IPS IDT (Innovative Data Technology) TD11051, 800/1600 BPI, 45 IPS, 3 connectors, read, write, motion, 36 pin edge connectors, and a cable from (THIS) drive? bringing all 3 connectors into a single 50 pin edge higher densidy connector. Kennedy 9000 (192-9000-019) 9 track 800/1600 BPI, 37.5 IPS Cipher 910640 800/1600 BPI, 75 IPS 2 Emulex TC01/TU01 board pairs, QBUS 1 Emulex TC02 Formatters?: Pertec F6181-1/0085 Formatter, 2 boards, NRZI Read/Write, PE Read Datum 10341 Q/HP (Kennedy 120-0025-01) controller Datum Formatter 5091-120 Pertec f84942(0)/13.9, 901006-01 with R/W 7/9 NRZI Prime formatter 3101-0001 (Kennedy 9219-509), 3 boards inside As I said, I have been holding on to this stuff so I could someday set up a system to read the 15 or 20 tapes I have. All RT-11 or VMS, with a couple off an RSX-11 system. If there is something here that could help out with somebodys project, I would be glad to lend it out, or even give it away, just as long as it either makes it back so I can eventually read my tapes, or if somebody wants to read the tapes they can have all/any of the tape drive hardware. The list of manuals for the formatters/drives will be along shortly. Regards, Joe Heck From sastevens at earthlink.net Tue Jan 24 17:45:59 2006 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 18:45:59 -0500 Subject: OT: Eudora (was: Microsoft doesn't like ClassicCmp? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060124092339.01bee518@mail.30below.com> References: <20060122095315.080c291f.sastevens@earthlink.net> <43D32ABF.7010303@atarimuseum.com> <20060122095315.080c291f.sastevens@earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20060124092339.01bee518@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20060124184559.0ad777e0.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:32:18 -0500 Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that John Foust may have mentioned these words: > >At 08:53 AM 1/22/2006, Scott Stevens wrote: > > >Usenet is _hoarded_ by Google, not maintained. > > >The idea of Usenet being 'maintained' by one corporate entity > > >goes against all the principles of Usenet. > > Except the only reason it's being maintained by one corporate entity is > because *no* other corporate entities give a rip. > It's perhaps utopian to say so, but Usenet isn't supposed to be dependent on any corporate entity to survive. In fact, it's based on a decentralized model, and should be dependent on NO corporate master at all. And Google has swallowed up the old archives. I haven't seen a place where I can order it up ad-free on a set of 16 DVD-ROM disks, yet the classic content COULD be packaged that way fairly easily, and at low cost. From sastevens at earthlink.net Tue Jan 24 18:03:38 2006 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:03:38 -0500 Subject: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060124071158.0505b948@mail> Message-ID: <20060124190338.55bb5410.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:02:42 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > At 01:15 AM 1/24/2006, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > >> Tony Duell wrote: > > >> And the board basically worked. The display at boot-up was sane. > > >> Suspecting a RAM problem, I put in a complete new set of > > >> 4164s -- no change. > > > > > >Hmmm, sounds like swapping to me ... ;-) > > > > I know, I know! And I was a bit disappointed that he didn't grind > > down the top of the failed chip to do a proper repair. :-) > > What failed chip? All the RAMs were good... > > > > > Of course, he can regain the extra point by giving an explanation > > of why swapping a chip is allowed under the proper interpretation > > of the official repair rules. > > Err, when you know the replacement part is good, when you know the > replacement part is directly equivalent to the old part, and when the old > part cannot be repaired? Or, to be historically correct: when there's a repair depot to ship the old part to, in a company where 'field repair' is discouraged because the same 'problem' in the assembly will be troubleshot time after time by every technician in the field, and a permanent 'fix' will never make it into the new design because the people in the development lab next door to the repair depot who watch rework/repair trends never find out about the problem. > > -tony From sastevens at earthlink.net Tue Jan 24 21:02:17 2006 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:02:17 -0500 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: References: <20060124051643.58973.qmail@web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060124220217.5833c676.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:44:43 -0700 Richard wrote: > > In article <20060124051643.58973.qmail at web34102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, > steven stengel writes: > > > 38 JPEG images - very large in size - sorry, no PDF! > > What's a good free tool for turning scanned pages into a PDF? > > I see that Adobe now has a product called Adobe Acrobat Capture that > seems like it would be perfect for turning old manuals into PDFs. > They claim that it can create documents of these types: > > - PDF image only -- similar to the PDFs on bitsavers > - PDF searchable image -- the pages are shown as images, but are OCRed > into a hidden text layer so that you can search a document that > looks like images > - PDF formatted text+images -- text is OCR'ed and non-text portions of > the document are kept as image layers > - HTML > - ASCII > > Does anyone have familiarity with this Capture product? Its only $99 > when purchased as a download. > -- Adobe Acrobat 3.0 had 'Capture' built in as part of the full price product. That was before Adobe adopted their 'tiered product' structure, where a lot of useful functionality gets put only in the expensive version. I would try to locate a copy of Acrobat 3.0 used if you can. Which can be tricky as the license number 'carries forward' so you would have to find somebody who hasn't upgraded. And I try to ALWAYS stay away from 'download versions' or expensive (more than $20-30) 'download only' software. You'll probably only be able to install it by downloading it onto one machine. I much prefer installable media, and sometimes if there's a choice, you can pay a little more and get the 'CD Version' mailed to you. For creating PDFs natively, I recently installed Aladin Ghostscript on my desktop machine at work. It's free and I created a .BAT file (which I then turned into an Icon I can 'drop' onto). It doesn't let you directly create PDF files, but you install a Postscript printer as one of your 'printers' in Windows with print-to-file selected, and print to Postscript (*.PS) image files, then run them through Ghostscript to turn them into PDF files. Of course, on a machine you have total control over, you can also install NetBSD or one of the Linux-based OSes, bring in scanner support to a program like The Gimp, then use Mozilla's composer to paste images into web pages, print the web pages to Postscript files, then use ps2pdf to convert those to PDF files. Gives you the ability to archive your images also as HTML-linked page sets, which means you can easily share them to the web. But several of these options don't give you the 'compressed all in one' archivedness of a PDF file. I used to use Acrobat 3.0 and really wasn't impressed with it's OCR 'capture' features. It basically 'captures' text content from scanned pages, then stores that 'underneath' the images in the PDF file so the 'images' are searchable. It has probably improved, and the hardware has certainly sped up, since I last used it. Full Acrobat is an expensive option, I specifically bought it years back to archive old paper documents to electronic form. > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > From staylor at mrynet.com Tue Jan 24 22:59:24 2006 From: staylor at mrynet.com (User Staylor) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:59:24 -0600 Subject: Looking for Morrow MD5/MD11/MD34 docs and printsets Message-ID: <200601250459.k0P4xOdl003345@mrynet.com> I'm searching out documentation for the Morrow Micro Decision MD5, MD11 and/or MD34 Z80 CP/M machines. I had a line onto someone that had them, but he moved and his email address no longer works. Does anyone out there have any such documentation, preferably already scanned? TIA, -scott From rdewan at crh.org Wed Jan 25 08:39:37 2006 From: rdewan at crh.org (Dewan, Rahul) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 09:39:37 -0500 Subject: Manual available - Heathkit ET3400 trainer Message-ID: hi -by name is rdewan --do you still have the manual for heathkit 3400 trainer i am looking for one -please let me know at rdewan at crh.org-thanks CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including all attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. You may NOT use, disclose, copy or disseminate this information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail immediately. Please destroy all copies of the original message and all attachments. Your cooperation is greatly appreciated. Columbus Regional Hospital 2400 East 17th Street Columbus, Indiana 47201 From richard at pentagon-electronics.co.uk Wed Jan 25 09:27:01 2006 From: richard at pentagon-electronics.co.uk (Richard Norman) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 15:27:01 -0000 Subject: Texas 990/10A 2MB Boards Message-ID: <77B163C916E48045B5EE21AC71E10E30012C9C@sbs2003-server.PentagonElectronics.local> Marty I saw your posting regarding 990/10A boards, do you know of anyone who can repair or supply these boards. We have a number of faulty ones. Regards Richard Norman From robert.stek at gmail.com Wed Jan 25 20:04:12 2006 From: robert.stek at gmail.com (Robert Stek) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:04:12 -0500 Subject: Ebay Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <43d82e0f.16229ef9.6b42.5160@mx.gmail.com> FWIW, AFAIK & IIRC (I just love abbrev.) the metal-cased Horizon did not appear until several years after NorthStar made its appearance with its original model. The wooden case was veneered plywood stained walnut in color. I don't believe that it was walnut veneer. The end pieces of the Sol were solid walnut. The story goes that a friend of one of partners in ProcTech had a wood working business with lots of scrap walnut available, so the Sol had its 2 side panels supplied in that wood. The kit version had instructions for finishing the wood with tung oil. I still have several Sols (my first computer) and several Horizons (all with wooden cases). I think Allison has (had?) at least one Horizon with the metal case. Once I get a round TUIT, I plan on making a walnut case for my reproduction Mark-8 (the round TUIT being the most critical component and one I have not yet found). Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols (should be a bit more active now that I have officially retired) From Stefan.Wolfs at hmz.be Thu Jan 26 03:47:40 2006 From: Stefan.Wolfs at hmz.be (Stefan Wolfs) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 10:47:40 +0100 Subject: HP 82161A Message-ID: Dear Sir , I am searching for data cassettes and found your website. Could you make me an offer for 6 philips certified digital mini-cassette type LDB 4401 Regards, Stefan Wolfs Purchasing Manager tel.: 0032 11 697 204 fax.: 0032 11 681 307 mail: stefan.wolfs at hmz.be www.hmz.be From phufnagel at snet.net Thu Jan 26 21:12:47 2006 From: phufnagel at snet.net (Peter Hufnagel) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:12:47 -0500 Subject: Subject: Re: TK70 tape drive media? + more Message-ID: <43D98FAF.2060209@snet.net> > If you need a a few TK50 carts, I have some. Heh, if you need TK50 tapes, I have a slew of them, just dug up (unboxed and put with the rest of the takes) a brand new VMS 5.7 tape. Probably have a few CompactTapeII's in there somewhere too. Also have boxes of 90M DAT tapes, all free to anyone who wants them (heh, and 90M DAT's, you're talking 100's of them). Also have a few external SCSI TK50 drives, I think 2 or 3 I could stand to get rid of if anyone is interested. Oh yeah, and have a couple of DecStation 5000/125's to get rid of, if anyone has any interest. And for PC's, an Everex Cube, 486/33(?) EISA box, I think loaded with like 6x600MB 1/2-height SCSI drives, but I'd have to look. Not looking for money for anything, just trying to find good homes for some stuff I haven't used in years. From pdp11 at saccade.com Fri Jan 27 01:18:03 2006 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 23:18:03 -0800 Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <20060124230933.40751.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20060126223200.01dbd4a0@mail.saccade.com> >I've been dying to ask this question. Can you >actually learn something (hopefully a whole lot!) >about a chip if you actually did this??? There are actually successful companies in just that business: http://www.chipworks.com/ Be sure to click on the "Silicon Art Gallery" link at the top. For a while Chipworks had a free CD with other interesting photos, I'm not sure if it's still available. Getting at the die isn't all that complicated - it's called "depackaging" or "decapsulation" in the trade. For ceramic and PGA packages with a metal lid, it's generally pretty easy to just pry the lid off. For plastic chips, dripping fuming nitric acid on the package eats it away but leaves the silicon and bonding wires in tact. There are labs that do this sort of work on a regular basis: http://www.mefas.com/Decapsulation.htm http://www.dpems.com/ Be sure to read bunnie's story of how to skirt the "security" features of a PIC microcontroller by sticking a tiny piece of electrical tape(!) on the die. http://www.bunniestudios.com/wordpress/?page_id=40 Modern, high end chips (P4, Opteron, Cell, etc.) are pretty hard to get at though. Rather than having bounding wires at the edge of the chip, they have tiny solder balls scattered across it. The chips are soldered/glued face down directly to the package interconnect. I'm sure it takes some serious wizardry to pry them loose again. [Why yes, I am a chip collector...how could you tell?] Cheers, jp http://www.saccade.com/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Jan 27 02:10:08 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 08:10:08 -0000 (GMT) Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:09:52 -0800. Message-ID: <42405.195.212.29.75.1138349408.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > Aren't there chips (i.e. crypto) that are designed to be destroyed > if they are disassembled? I don't know what they do to the package, > but if I had an IC with an EPROM containing my crypto keys, I'd want > the chip to self-destruct during an attempt to pry open the package > :). I read a brilliant article on the encryption boards used in banking. The actual clever bits are encased in epoxy, and powered by batteries on the board. If you remove the batteries, it loses the contents of memory (and all keys). If you attempt to cut the package open, you cut through a layer consisting of many turns of resistance wire. If yout cut it, or bypass bits, the resistance changes and it clobbers the memory. If it gets too cold, or too hot, again it clobbers the memory. X-raying it is right out, too. Gordon. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jan 27 02:14:40 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 08:14:40 GMT Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: Eric J Korpela "Re: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board" (Jan 26, 19:09) References: <20060124230933.40751.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10601270814.ZM23586@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 26 2006, 19:09, Eric J Korpela wrote: > On 1/24/06, Chris M wrote: > > I've been dying to ask this question. Can you > > actually learn something (hopefully a whole lot!) > > about a chip if you actually did this??? What if there > > was some old chip for which there is no documentation. > > If, given the availability of the proper equipment > > (surface grinder?), you were able to take off say > > .0001" of material at a time, or thereabouts ;), would > > you have the ability to photograph it, and have > > something in the way of a working schematic? It's not done by grinding, but it can be done by dissolving the epoxy encasulation in fuming nitric acid. I found some good descriptions of the process several years ago while researching the security problems associated with Mondex. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jan 27 02:14:45 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 08:14:45 GMT Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: "Chuck Guzis" "Re: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board" (Jan 26, 21:21) References: <200601262121000961.31039E90@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <10601270814.ZM23589@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 26 2006, 21:21, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/26/2006 at 9:24 PM Richard wrote: > > >Aren't there chips (i.e. crypto) that are designed to be destroyed > >if they are disassembled? I don't know what they do to the package, > >but if I had an IC with an EPROM containing my crypto keys, I'd want > >the chip to self-destruct during an attempt to pry open the package > > I don't know about grinding, but the guy at MIT who figured out the Xbox > innards did something of the sort (regardless, it's a great read): > > http://www.xenatera.com/bunnie/proj/anatak/xboxmod.html > > The operative term is "decapsulating"; if you google on it, you can find > some interesting stuff, like: > > http://www.smtinfocus.com/technical_papers_list.html The javascript on that page doesn't work for me but if you google for "mondex nitric acid" you'll find some good descriptions. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Useddec at aol.com Fri Jan 27 02:21:50 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 03:21:50 EST Subject: WD78, VT78, Decmate, Rainbow, Pro, I lost your info!! Message-ID: <238.5d9d327.310b321e@aol.com> Would the people interested in these items please contact me directly? I have been losing E-mail. Thanks, Paul From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jan 27 02:48:45 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 02:48:45 -0600 Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <42405.195.212.29.75.1138349408.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> References: Your message of Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:09:52 -0800. <42405.195.212.29.75.1138349408.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43D9DE6D.9080007@mdrconsult.com> gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: > I read a brilliant article on the encryption boards used in banking. The > actual clever bits are encased in epoxy, and powered by batteries on the > board. If you remove the batteries, it loses the contents of memory (and > all keys). If you attempt to cut the package open, you cut through a > layer consisting of many turns of resistance wire. If yout cut it, or > bypass bits, the resistance changes and it clobbers the memory. If it > gets too cold, or too hot, again it clobbers the memory. X-raying it is > right out, too. Does it have "U R SCREWED" etched on the die? :) Doc From fm.arnold at gmx.net Fri Jan 27 06:17:47 2006 From: fm.arnold at gmx.net (Frank Arnold) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:17:47 +0100 Subject: Jittery LA36 Message-ID: Gordon JC Pearce gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jan 24 14:22:27 CST 2006 > >Hi there, > I've finally got the ribbons for my LA36, unjammed the pins in the >printhead and it is printing. It's not quite right yet, though... > >The printhead often jitters backwards and forwards, sometimes several >inches. When you hit "RETURN" it's obviously lost track of where the >head is, and slams it into the left-hand stop, where it sits obstinately > pressed against the spring. > >Cleaning up the photosensor bit on the interrupter wheel seemed to help >a little. > >Gordon. > Hi, Test the free movement of the carriage when powered down and lubricae with some sewingmachine oil on the guidance bars, between the printhead bearing. There must be a resonable free movement. Then adjust the sensor allignment at the carriagemotor, you will need a dual channel scope connected to two test points on the logic board, as discribed in the maintenance manual. I'am pretty sure the jitter is caused by a misallignement, as I have fixed dozens of LA36 for this. Unfortunately, I do not have any docs anymore, but to do the allignement you have to: 1. Release the tension spring and remove the rubber belt from the motor. 2. appley constant power to the carriage motor. (To generate many pulses). (don't remember if 5 or 12 volt, but it is discribed in the maint.man.). 3. Loosen the screws holding the sensor a bit so you can move it. 4. Position the sensor such, that the time-shift between the two pulses from the sensor on your scope has the required value (15 ms?). I dont remember the values, but that's in the books. It sounds complicated, but it is actualley a very simple adjustment. Given the fact that I never screwed it up... :-) But you need a scope. Succes, Frank From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 27 07:23:42 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 07:23:42 -0600 Subject: [rescue] PCMCIA ethernet adapters & modems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060127071606.05949d48@mail> At 10:21 PM 1/26/2006, Richard wrote: >Its large and heavy :-). I don't know how many tapes it holds, I'd >guess about 50-60. I can find out tomorrow. This is a huge beast >(tape loading mechanism works fine, 2 drives dead, 1 drive working) >that noone wants. A service contract on it is prohibitive. Noone at >work wants to haul it out for scrap. I'd love to hear about classic support for such a beast. I would imagine there is a Linux way to handle it, because there always is. But when I bought a similar DDS-3 beast library (50+ tapes, four drives) (for $25 or so) I found that contemporary Windows support was expensive - the backup software folks wanted you to buy separate server-class-price licenses for each internal drive. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 27 07:30:36 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 07:30:36 -0600 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <20060126010316.17391.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060126010316.17391.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060127073013.0596c1c0@mail> At 07:03 PM 1/25/2006, Chris M wrote: >wait a cotton picking minute...isn't there a reference >in "Revolution in the Valley" to a game written by >Bill Gates with a big BROWN donkey??? I don't own the >book, obviously stating from memory. Maybe someone can >confirm or deny. Story and screen captures at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DONKEY.BAS . Doesn't look brown to me. Maybe it's a question of the emulation - which brings up full circle. - John From eds_2 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 27 07:54:20 2006 From: eds_2 at yahoo.com (Eric Scharff) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 05:54:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: UCSD Pascal and s100 manuals Message-ID: <20060127135420.68854.qmail@web32504.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This message is really targeted to Randy McLaughlin, who I hope still subscribes to this mailing list. I can't reach you directly by email, so I wished to try this forum. I am attempting to find information about UCSD pascal and stumbled across the references on s100-manuals.com. I was attempting to retrieve the files, but the links for download, sucn as http://www.s100-manuals.net/Download/Apple2Pascal1%5B1%5D.1IntDisasm.pdf do not appear to work. Would it be possible to get the files in the UCSD pascal area somewhere? I'm rediscovering the UCSD p-System, and any resources would be greatly appreciated. If anyone has this (or other p-system) information that they would like to send my way, it would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks, -Eric __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jan 27 10:11:31 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:11:31 Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <200601262121000961.31039E90@10.0.0.252> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060127101131.189f10ba@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:21 PM 1/26/06 -0800, you wrote: > >On 1/26/2006 at 9:24 PM Richard wrote: > >>Aren't there chips (i.e. crypto) that are designed to be destroyed >>if they are disassembled? I don't know what they do to the package, >>but if I had an IC with an EPROM containing my crypto keys, I'd want >>the chip to self-destruct during an attempt to pry open the package > >I don't know about grinding, but the guy at MIT who figured out the Xbox >innards did something of the sort (regardless, it's a great read): > >http://www.xenatera.com/bunnie/proj/anatak/xboxmod.html > >The operative term is "decapsulating"; if you google on it, you can find >some interesting stuff, like: > >http://www.smtinfocus.com/technical_papers_list.html Diamond slitting saw should also turn up some useful information. Joe > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jan 27 10:10:19 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:10:19 Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: References: <"26 Jan 2006 19:09:52 -0800." Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060127101019.441734dc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:24 PM 1/26/06 -0700, you wrote: > >On 1/24/06, Chris M wrote: >> I've been dying to ask this question. Can you >> actually learn something (hopefully a whole lot!) >> about a chip if you actually did this??? What if there >> was some old chip for which there is no documentation. >> If, given the availability of the proper equipment >> (surface grinder?), you were able to take off say >> .0001" of material at a time, or thereabouts ;), would >> you have the ability to photograph it, and have >> something in the way of a working schematic? > >Aren't there chips (i.e. crypto) that are designed to be destroyed >if they are disassembled? Not that I ever heard of. A friend of mine used to failure analysis for an aerospace contractor and he routine cut ICs apart to examine and test them. Many of them were examined for things like ESD, overheating and chemical exposure damage that didn't cause immediate failures but could do damage and cause failures later. The ICs frequently passed operational test even after they were cut open. Also several months ago someone on this list mentioned that he worked in a shop that had a wire bonding machine and he frequently took "failed" ICs and replaced the failed bond wire and keep on using them. He said that some ICs had had the bond wires replaced numerous times. I don't know what they do to the package, >but if I had an IC with an EPROM containing my crypto keys, I'd want >the chip to self-destruct during an attempt to pry open the package >:). You'd probaly better with battery backed RAM that would lose it power (and contents) when it was removed from the circuit. Or else redisign and use a PAL or some form or programmable logic that has a security fuse to prevent it from being read. Joe >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From allain at panix.com Fri Jan 27 10:17:41 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:17:41 -0500 Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board References: Your message of Thu, 26 Jan 2006 19:09:52 -0800. <42405.195.212.29.75.1138349408.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> Message-ID: <008401c6235d$54732200$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > I read a brilliant article on the encryption boards used in banking. The > actual clever bits are encased in epoxy, and powered by batteries on the > board. If you remove the batteries, it loses the contents of memory (and > all keys). If you attempt to cut the package open, you cut through a > layer consisting of many turns of resistance wire. If yout cut it, or > bypass bits, the resistance changes and it clobbers the memory. I just had a similar experience with a Compaq RAID array. The drives were encoded soas to only work with the controller, attempting to read them with another controller and/or removing that controiller from the system disrupted the configuration so that the disks contents were effectively rendered unreadable, even on reassembly. Six big cache batteries on the controller showed that the state of the array was keyed in to and bound in with it and 'cutting apart' the components broke the security. Securing data on disks is still a big problem today. Not the case it seemed with this system. John A. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jan 27 11:33:01 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:33:01 Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <20060124230933.40751.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060127113301.189758d2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:09 PM 1/24/06 -0800, you wrote: >> And I was a bit disappointed that >> he didn't grind >> > down the top of the failed chip to do a proper >> repair. :-) > > I've been dying to ask this question. Can you >actually learn something (hopefully a whole lot!) >about a chip if you actually did this??? Absolutely! What if there >was some old chip for which there is no documentation. The silicon dies usually have the manufacturer's name and model number on them. Somewhere on-line is a micro-photogragh of an 1101 (or one of the other EARLY Intel ICs). You can clearly read the model number on it. You do need a GOOD microscope for this kind of stuff. I just recently got one and I've started checking some ICs but I'm no expert. However I have a couple of friends that are. One did failure analysis for Litton Laser and another works for a company that supplies unmounted silicon die (ICs without the package) and other custom ICs to industry and the military. If you get REAL serious you can get VERY EXPENSIVE, tiny probes and actually probe internal signals on the die. >If, given the availability of the proper equipment >(surface grinder?), you were able to take off say >.0001" of material at a time, or thereabouts ;), Have you ever tried to open an IC that has a lid? It's not difficult. I've dropped boards and had them hit on the lid and pop it off and leave the rest of the IC intact. would >you have the ability to photograph it, and have >something in the way of a working schematic? Photograph it yes but a schematic is MUCH more involved since all dies have multiple layers. It's sort of like trying to make a schematic of a multilayer circuit board when all you can see is the top layer. Joe > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 27 11:24:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:24:11 -0800 Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060127113301.189758d2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060127113301.189758d2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200601270924110809.3399BA31@10.0.0.252> On 1/27/2006 at 11:33 AM Joe R. wrote: > Photograph it yes but a schematic is MUCH more involved since all dies >have multiple layers. It's sort of like trying to make a schematic of a >multilayer circuit board when all you can see is the top layer. Ditto that--and recall that we're talking here about an old graphics controller; no crypto and (relatively) very old technology. I'd rather haul out the logic analyzer to figure out funcationally what the chip was doing and work from there. Often, old house-branded chips turn out to be some commodity product with a few special mods. Much of the design world is evolutionary, rather than revolutionary--it's safer. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 27 11:31:55 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:31:55 -0800 Subject: Pinnacle Micro Apex drives Message-ID: <200601270931550766.33A0CE86@10.0.0.252> These are the 4.6 GB magneto-optical drives marketed about 10 years ago by the now-defunct Pinnacle. We had a few of them and every single one of them went bad (laser head) in less than a year. Repair costs were significant and there was a big backlog. I note that one can still find a few of these on ePay in one of two conditions; (a) powers up and otherwise unknown and (b) good tested, warranteed working. The (a) type usually can be had for less than $20 and the (b) type for $400+. Here's my question. I have a few old Apex MO cartridges that I'd like to read, but my curiosity doesn't extend far enough to spend $400-800 to satisfy. Has anyone had any favorable experience with the (a) type drives or are they all pretty much non-functional? I'm just trying to determine if it's worth the trouble. On a related subject, are there any other drives that will read the Apex carts? Cheers, Chuck From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jan 27 11:36:56 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:36:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board Message-ID: <200601271736.JAA02814@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Eric J Korpela" > >On 1/24/06, Chris M wrote: >> I've been dying to ask this question. Can you >> actually learn something (hopefully a whole lot!) >> about a chip if you actually did this??? What if there >> was some old chip for which there is no documentation. >> If, given the availability of the proper equipment >> (surface grinder?), you were able to take off say >> .0001" of material at a time, or thereabouts ;), would >> you have the ability to photograph it, and have >> something in the way of a working schematic? > >I don't know if features would be immediately identifiable, but with >some work it should be possible. I know of a company that was >attempting to build silicon debugger using a high speed image >intensified camera to watch photons emitted by the transistors as they >pass current. Should work for reverse engineering... Given a couple >years and $500,000 I could probably build you one.... Then again I >would imagine that the device is patented. > >Eric > Hi Most all of the older chips using 1 micron or larger structures show enough information to make a chip by just looking at the chip. Using polarized light, features such as the wells for the transistors are quite clear. Current day parts have many layers of wires and sometimes entire planes of metal above the silicon. Still, methods of deprocessing are used both for reverse engineering and also for failure analysis. Photon emission is used for debugging of failures today. On current chips, it often requires deprocessing of the back side ( bulk ) of the die so that the transistors them selves are visible. This is a combination of mechanical methods and FIB deprocessing. Most every manufacture of silicon has access to this type of equipment. Just for information. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jan 27 11:39:09 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:39:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board Message-ID: <200601271739.JAA02876@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Richard" > > >On 1/24/06, Chris M wrote: >> I've been dying to ask this question. Can you >> actually learn something (hopefully a whole lot!) >> about a chip if you actually did this??? What if there >> was some old chip for which there is no documentation. >> If, given the availability of the proper equipment >> (surface grinder?), you were able to take off say >> .0001" of material at a time, or thereabouts ;), would >> you have the ability to photograph it, and have >> something in the way of a working schematic? > >Aren't there chips (i.e. crypto) that are designed to be destroyed >if they are disassembled? I don't know what they do to the package, >but if I had an IC with an EPROM containing my crypto keys, I'd want >the chip to self-destruct during an attempt to pry open the package >:). Hi You've been watching too many James Bond movies. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jan 27 11:55:59 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:55:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board Message-ID: <200601271756.JAA03320@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." ---snip--- > > Also several months ago someone on this list mentioned that he worked in >a shop that had a wire bonding machine and he frequently took "failed" ICs >and replaced the failed bond wire and keep on using them. He said that some >ICs had had the bond wires replaced numerous times. > > ---snip--- Hi At a previous company I worked at we had a bonding machine and we used a lot of EPROM's. Often one would ge put in upside down and blow a bonding wire. I used to take these and pop the top off and rebond a new wire for the blown one. They always worked after that. I'd just epoxy the lid back on. I think I still have a few of these in my parts box someplace. Dwight From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 27 13:00:30 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 12:00:30 -0700 Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 27 Jan 2006 02:48:45 -0500. <274.4b78252.310b2a5d@aol.com> Message-ID: In article <274.4b78252.310b2a5d at aol.com>, Useddec at aol.com writes: > I think the board in question is made by CMD Technology CQD 443-tm. The T > indicates tape, and the M indicates Disk controller. What did you need it to > do? I have both TK50 and 70 interfaces, drives, and media. Well, if I am going to get the latest OpenVMS hobbyist edition, I'd need to hook a SCSI CD-ROM drive up to it. I think I have one on the shelf somewhere. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jan 27 13:33:04 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:33:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601272007.PAA21733@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> GIF is pretty good, [...] > I recommend that you use PNG instead of GIF -- better compression and > better features. Certainly lots more features, which in actually a reason to avoid it, at least to me. PNG 1.1's spec is three times the size of GIF 89's (comparing a text file I have lying around for GIF89 versus RFC2083 for PNG); just glancing over the table of contents for RFC2083, it looks like second-system effect applied to TIFF. It is approximately impossible to implement PNG compactly; you need something functionally equivalent to zlib (see the first bullet point in RFC2083 section 12.3); pngtopnm is some three to four times the size of giftopnm. (I find pngtopnm is 128981 bytes versus giftopnm at 31373 bytes, a factor of 4.11+; after stripping symbol tables, 96016 versus 25480 bytes, a factor of 3.626- - and while shared libraries make this comparison unfair, they do so in png's favour, for the pngtopnm I looked at is linked shared against libm and libc, while the giftopnm, only libc.) > Besides, I thought the GIF patent had expired everywhere? Nitpick: I don't think GIF is patented anywhere. Rather, it uses Lempel-Ziv-Welch compression, and *that* is patented - or at least was; I don't know enough about patent expiration times in various jurisdictions to know where its patents have died. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 27 14:24:55 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:24:55 -0700 Subject: IBM PC 300XLs free for pickup Message-ID: Any interest in IBM PC 300 XLs? Free to local pickup in South Jordan, UT. Email me if interested. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 27 17:11:52 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:11:52 -0700 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:33:04 -0500. <200601272007.PAA21733@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: In article <200601272007.PAA21733 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, der Mouse writes: > Certainly lots more features, which in actually a reason to avoid it, > at least to me. [...] Man, and I thought _I_ was a curmudgeon! :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 27 17:20:06 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:20:06 -0700 Subject: more discarded ISA/PCI cards from work Message-ID: OK, I picked up scads of ISA NICs, various brands, no manuals or drivers but you can probably find them online or built into Windoze. Most of them are RJ45 connector, some of them have a thinnet connector. I also have some video cards and some SCSI cards and some sound cards. I'll post a detailed inventory to the list over the next couple of days. I left the PCI NICs behind as they are so cheap to just buy. I rescued 4 IBM brand PCs (P-II, various MHz, HD, RAM): 3 PC 365s and 1 PC 350, 5 IBM brand keyboards and 10 ft. power cords to go with them. Sridhar has spoken for the tape library, but a couple of you folks also expressed interest. Perhaps if Sridhar doesn't feel like paying the freight shipping (it will be pricey as I'm about 2,000+ miles away from him) one of you that's closer would like it. Feel free to discuss that amongst yourselves! They were happy that someone would adopt it and its 3 dead drives and 1 good one plus media (which we have to bulk erase, that's why it was removed) so that they don't have to figure out how to dispose of the thing. There are cases and complete PCs, all in working order as I posted earlier. These machines were used for testing until decomissioned for being old, not broken. All are free for pickup. Employees already took everything they wanted, although a few (like me) grabbed additional items today. (How can I resist free? :-). If there is anyone local to 84095 zip code that repairs monitors, there are about 20-40 monitors of various sizes (up to 21" IIRC) that have problems but could probably be repaired quickly if you do that sort of thing often enough to quickly diagnose and troubleshoot the problems based on symptoms. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From molists at yahoo.com Fri Jan 27 17:36:55 2006 From: molists at yahoo.com (Mo) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 15:36:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: WD78, VT78, Decmate, Rainbow, Pro, I lost your info!! In-Reply-To: <238.5d9d327.310b321e@aol.com> Message-ID: <20060127233655.9740.qmail@web31514.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Useddec at aol.com wrote: > Would the people interested in these items please contact me > directly? I have > been losing E-mail. > > Thanks, Paul > I'm interested in the VT78. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 27 18:12:38 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:12:38 -0800 Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 PM -0700 1/27/06, Richard wrote: >Well, if I am going to get the latest OpenVMS hobbyist edition, I'd >need to hook a SCSI CD-ROM drive up to it. I think I have one on the >shelf somewhere. It needs to be more than just a SCSI CD-ROM, it must support 512-byte blocks. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 27 18:07:10 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 00:07:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <200601270924110809.3399BA31@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 27, 6 09:24:11 am Message-ID: > > On 1/27/2006 at 11:33 AM Joe R. wrote: > > > Photograph it yes but a schematic is MUCH more involved since all dies > >have multiple layers. It's sort of like trying to make a schematic of a > >multilayer circuit board when all you can see is the top layer. > > Ditto that--and recall that we're talking here about an old graphics > controller; no crypto and (relatively) very old technology. I'd rather If we're talking about the Epson QX10, then there's no problem at all. The later version of the board (which is what's in both my machines) contaisn a 7220 (data sheet available), 16 RAMs, a bit of TTL and an Epson gate array. But the technical manual shows schematics for that _and for an earlier version_. That doesn't have the gate array, it has more TTL and a character generator EPROM. There must be some differences between the 'extra' TTL and the gate array (IIRC there's a latch on a bus in one version that's not in the other), but they are sufficiently similar that you could recreate a replacement for the gate array based on the schematics in the manual. The only thing you wouldn't have is the exact font of the character generator, but I am sure you could create something that was readable. A bigger problem in maintaing the QX10 are the 2 hybrids in the SMPSU (but IIRC part-scheamtics without component values are in the manual) and the 2 ASCIS on the floopy drive. And you'd have probllems swapping out the complete drive as this is a 1/3rd height unit (not to mention the fact that you'd want to keep the original one since it's an interesting voice-coil unit). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 27 17:51:06 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 23:51:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: the Epson QX-10 in general was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <20060124231323.2602.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jan 24, 6 03:13:23 pm Message-ID: > > > Yes it was stanadrd. There was no other video > > circuitry. > > O man that's good news. If you ever get around to > scanning the manuals, in your own good time, that > would certainly be welcome. Don't know how I'd return Well, I don't have a scanner, but there would be no point in me scanning them anyway. Soem manauls are on the web anyway. I can try to find a URL, but if you do a google search you should find something (I came across them while looking for info on the PX4 and PX8). The QX10 techncial manual is certainly there, it's 2 volumes. Volume 1 (which I have on paper) includes the theory-of-operation and the schematics, Volume 2 contains info on taking the machine apart and tweaking the adjustments. The last does include doing a head alignment on the rather nice voice-coil floppy drives, but it doesn't cover all the presets on said drive that set things like the LED current for the feedback transducer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 27 18:00:46 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 00:00:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060127101019.441734dc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jan 27, 6 10:10:19 am Message-ID: > (and contents) when it was removed from the circuit. Or else redisign and > use a PAL or some form or programmable logic that has a security fuse to > prevent it from being read. Oh come on. PALs are about as secure as a cardboard front door. If you're going to allow unpackaging the chip, then remember that PAls used the old fusible-link technology. And those links will be in the top metalisation layer. You could see which ones were intact and which were blown with a microscope. And I guess if you could open up a new example of the same make and type of PAL without damaging it, you could blow the links one at a time and keep on looking at the chip to work out which was which. But why go to all that trouble? Even if the security fuse is blown, it's possible to reverse-engineer a PAL using well-known techniques of applying various inputs and looking at the outputs. With a PAL there is no way to have a hidden variable. Any flip-flop in the chip (wether part of thr 'R' of a registered PAL, or made from the AND/OR matrix) will appear on one of the pins (this is not true of GALs, unfortunately). So with a PAL it's relatively easy to work out what's going on. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 27 18:53:17 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 17:53:17 -0700 Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:12:38 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > At 12:00 PM -0700 1/27/06, Richard wrote: > >Well, if I am going to get the latest OpenVMS hobbyist edition, I'd > >need to hook a SCSI CD-ROM drive up to it. I think I have one on the > >shelf somewhere. > > It needs to be more than just a SCSI CD-ROM, it must support 512-byte blocks. How can I tell? Its Toshiba SCSI CD-ROM model TXM3401E1 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jan 27 19:12:11 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 19:12:11 -0600 Subject: Preventing CGA revisionist history In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060127073013.0596c1c0@mail> References: <20060126010316.17391.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20060127073013.0596c1c0@mail> Message-ID: <43DAC4EB.5030202@oldskool.org> John Foust wrote: >>wait a cotton picking minute...isn't there a reference >>in "Revolution in the Valley" to a game written by >>Bill Gates with a big BROWN donkey??? I don't own the >>book, obviously stating from memory. Maybe someone can >>confirm or deny. > > Story and screen captures at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DONKEY.BAS . > > Doesn't look brown to me. Maybe it's a question of the emulation - > which brings up full circle. Emulation pix at wikipedia are incorrect; color palette would indeed make the donkey brown. If I cared more I'd update the donkey.bas wikipedia article, but I don't :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jan 27 21:08:31 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 21:08:31 Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20060127101019.441734dc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060127210831.628fa952@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> OK genius, you suggest something that NO ONE can break! I'm sure the CIA, FBI, MI-5 and the Mafia would all love to know about it. Joe At 12:00 AM 1/28/06 +0000, you wrote: >> (and contents) when it was removed from the circuit. Or else redisign and >> use a PAL or some form or programmable logic that has a security fuse to >> prevent it from being read. > >Oh come on. PALs are about as secure as a cardboard front door. > >If you're going to allow unpackaging the chip, then remember that PAls >used the old fusible-link technology. And those links will be in the top >metalisation layer. You could see which ones were intact and which were >blown with a microscope. And I guess if you could open up a new example >of the same make and type of PAL without damaging it, you could blow the >links one at a time and keep on looking at the chip to work out which was >which. > >But why go to all that trouble? Even if the security fuse is blown, it's >possible to reverse-engineer a PAL using well-known techniques of >applying various inputs and looking at the outputs. With a PAL there is >no way to have a hidden variable. Any flip-flop in the chip (wether part >of thr 'R' of a registered PAL, or made from the AND/OR matrix) will >appear on one of the pins (this is not true of GALs, unfortunately). So >with a PAL it's relatively easy to work out what's going on. > >-tony > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 27 20:28:35 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:28:35 -0800 Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 5:53 PM -0700 1/27/06, Richard wrote: >In article , > "Zane H. Healy" writes: > >> At 12:00 PM -0700 1/27/06, Richard wrote: >> >Well, if I am going to get the latest OpenVMS hobbyist edition, I'd >> >need to hook a SCSI CD-ROM drive up to it. I think I have one on the >> >shelf somewhere. >> >> It needs to be more than just a SCSI CD-ROM, it must support >>512-byte blocks. > >How can I tell? Its Toshiba SCSI CD-ROM model TXM3401E1 *GOOD* question. I don't see any actual indication. However, after some Googling, I found this page http://questier.com/SGI/, since this person is using one on his SGI Indigo, I'd say you're in luck. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 27 21:31:30 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:31:30 -0700 Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:28:35 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > *GOOD* question. I don't see any actual indication. However, after > some Googling, I found this page http://questier.com/SGI/, since this > person is using one on his SGI Indigo, I'd say you're in luck. Now that you jog my memory, I think this CD-ROM came from an SGI system. I can't remember if it was having problems or not. I guess I'll find out :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 27 21:37:28 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 19:37:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060127210831.628fa952@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060127101019.441734dc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060127210831.628fa952@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20060127193642.V90860@shell.lmi.net> > OK genius, you suggest something that NO ONE can break! I'm sure the > CIA, FBI, MI-5 and the Mafia would all love to know about it. So, you think that the NSA has cracked ROT13? From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Jan 27 22:30:35 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:30:35 -0800 Subject: Old Disk Tester Message-ID: Up on EBay is an old CDC disk drive tester, mis-described as a power supply. It's a heavy unit, just barely portable (speaking from experience). There were a few different models of these, depending on the drive. From what I can see of the preamp card, this is for the module drives (SMD, CMD, etc.). Hard to tell without better pictures and my memory on the part numbers has faded.. Not much good these days, unless you are one of the few with some of these old drives around. But the testers were fun to play with, and I've torn a couple apart just for the components. Billy Search on: 7583142079 From paulrsm at buckeye-express.com Sat Jan 28 00:10:29 2006 From: paulrsm at buckeye-express.com (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 01:10:29 -0500 Subject: UCSD Pascal and s100 manuals Message-ID: <43DB0AD5.7A66DA20@buckeye-express.com> Eric Scharff wrote: > http://www.s100-manuals.net/Download/Apple2Pascal1%5B1%5D.1IntDisasm.pdf Try .com instead of .net: http://www.s100-manuals.net/Download/Apple2Pascal1[1].1IntDisasm.pdf There is a UCSD Pascal group on Yahoo. -- Paul R. Santa-Maria Monroe, Michigan USA From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 28 00:37:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 22:37:29 -0800 Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <20060127193642.V90860@shell.lmi.net> References: <3.0.6.16.20060127101019.441734dc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060127210831.628fa952@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20060127193642.V90860@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200601272237290914.366FFEE1@10.0.0.252> On 1/27/2006 at 7:37 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >So, you think that the NSA has cracked ROT13? Maybe NSA, but certainly not the FBI (IMOHE). Cheers, Chuck From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Jan 28 02:19:35 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 08:19:35 GMT Subject: UCSD Pascal and s100 manuals In-Reply-To: <43DB0AD5.7A66DA20@buckeye-express.com> References: <43DB0AD5.7A66DA20@buckeye-express.com> Message-ID: <537735f04d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <43DB0AD5.7A66DA20 at buckeye-express.com> "Paul R. Santa-Maria" wrote: > Try .com instead of .net: > http://www.s100-manuals.com/Download/Apple2Pascal1[1].1IntDisasm.pdf 404. The pages on s100-manuals.com actually link to s100-manuals.net for the UCSD Pascal stuff... Thanks. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... My other neighbour is quiet. From bernd at kopriva.de Sat Jan 28 02:23:36 2006 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 09:23:36 +0100 Subject: Seeking for docs/software for ZAIAZ 933 Clipper board ... In-Reply-To: <20060104103130.D8DC039698@linux.local> Message-ID: <20060128081125.887FF396C4@linux.local> Was it just the wrong time to ask ... ... or have i collected just another "last unicorn" ? Ciao Bernd On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 11:53:08 +0100, Bernd Kopriva wrote: >Hi, >today i received a pair of ISA boards, that contains a clipper CPU board and a some memory ... >... unfortunately, there was no software and documentation included, and Google doesn't seem >to be my friend on that topic :( > >Can anyone help me to get the boards back to life ? > >Thanks Bernd > >Bernd Kopriva Phone: ++49-7195-179452 >Weilerstr. 24 E-Mail: bernd at kopriva.de >D-71397 Leutenbach >Germany > > > > From stekster at gmail.com Fri Jan 27 07:37:09 2006 From: stekster at gmail.com (Robert Stek) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 08:37:09 -0500 Subject: Ebay Northstar Horizon Message-ID: <43da2203.427f81dd.6b42.55ee@mx.gmail.com> FWIW, AFAIK & IIRC (I just love abbrev.) the metal-cased Horizon did not appear until several years after NorthStar made its appearance with its original model. The wooden case was veneered plywood stained walnut in color. I don't believe that it was walnut veneer. The end pieces of the Sol were solid walnut. The story goes that a friend of one of partners in ProcTech had a wood working business with lots of scrap walnut available, so the Sol had its 2 side panels supplied in that wood. The kit version had instructions for finishing the wood with tung oil. I still have several Sols (my first computer) and several Horizons (all with wooden cases). I think Allison has (had?) at least one Horizon with the metal case. Once I get a round TUIT, I plan on making a walnut case for my reproduction Mark-8 (the round TUIT being the most critical component and one I have not yet found). Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols (should be a bit more active now that I have officially retired) From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Jan 27 07:56:14 2006 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:56:14 -0000 Subject: Jittery LA36 Message-ID: Hi Check all cables near and going to the position sensor and carriage motor. As the main board is on the back of the door any thing that moves when the door is opened is also suspect. Also inspect PCB's for cracks. The constant impacts when printing would cause all of the usual vibration related problems. Heads suffered from fibers from the ribbon getting up the pin holes in the synthetic agate. Dump the head in a jar of absolute alcohol for a week. Change liquid if particles seen. Rod Smallwood (ex Digital Terminals Product Line 1975-1981) -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce Sent: 24 January 2006 20:22 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Jittery LA36 Hi there, I've finally got the ribbons for my LA36, unjammed the pins in the printhead and it is printing. It's not quite right yet, though... The printhead often jitters backwards and forwards, sometimes several inches. When you hit "RETURN" it's obviously lost track of where the head is, and slams it into the left-hand stop, where it sits obstinately pressed against the spring. Cleaning up the photosensor bit on the interrupter wheel seemed to help a little. Gordon. From sastevens at earthlink.net Fri Jan 27 17:31:11 2006 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:31:11 -0500 Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <20060124230933.40751.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060124230933.40751.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060127183111.23a4b4f7.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 15:09:33 -0800 (PST) Chris M wrote: > > And I was a bit disappointed that > > he didn't grind > > > down the top of the failed chip to do a proper > > repair. :-) > > I've been dying to ask this question. Can you > actually learn something (hopefully a whole lot!) > about a chip if you actually did this??? What if there > was some old chip for which there is no documentation. > If, given the availability of the proper equipment > (surface grinder?), you were able to take off say > .0001" of material at a time, or thereabouts ;), would > you have the ability to photograph it, and have > something in the way of a working schematic? > At one point I had a lot of house-marked ceramic chip packages that I thought were DRAM but couldn't be certain of. Since they were in cerdip packages, it was easy to use a cold chisel to split one of them open. And I used a microscope to look at the die, and sure enough, it was marked as a 4116 DRAM part. I used the rest of the parts as 4116s. This would be MUCH more difficult with plastic parts. From root at parse.com Fri Jan 27 09:36:10 2006 From: root at parse.com (Robert Krten) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:36:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jan 27, 2006 12:27:16 AM Message-ID: <200601271536.k0RFaAKX021134@amd64.ott.parse.com> William Donzelli sez... > > > I don't know about grinding, but the guy at MIT who figured out the Xbox > > innards did something of the sort (regardless, it's a great read): > > A guy I went to school with does this for Motorola. He gets chips back > that are failing in the field and dissects them to find out what went > wrong. > > I think the actual process involves shaving rather than grinding. I did something similar as a kid at BNR (now Nortel) at their Corkstown facility. I had purchased a whack of "unmarked but guaranteed to be the same chip" from the old MIL (Microsystems International Limited) at a surplus place, and mentioned to one of the engineers at BNR that I'd like to know what they were. The process was that they put it into a high temperature high-oxygen-content chamber and basically "eroded" the plastic from around the chip. Over the course of a few hours, the eroded plastic was simply brushed away, finally exposing the chip. We were then able to read the part number off the die -- ML741 :-) Cheers, -RK -- Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices +1 613 599 8316. Realtime Systems Architecture, Consulting, Books and Training at www.parse.com Looking for Digital Equipment Corp. PDP-1 through PDP-15 minicomputers! From terry at terryking.us Fri Jan 27 14:30:49 2006 From: terry at terryking.us (Terry King) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 21:30:49 +0100 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 29, Issue 59 In-Reply-To: <200601271802.k0RI2amX008699@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20060127211440.010a7600@mail.terryking.us> >Subject: Re: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board > > > I don't know about grinding, but the guy at MIT who figured out the Xbox > > innards did something of the sort (regardless, it's a great read): >A guy I went to school with does this for Motorola. He gets chips back >that are failing in the field and dissects them to find out what went >wrong. >I think the actual process involves shaving rather than grinding. In the FA (Failure Analysis) lab at IBM, the "De-layering" process was complex, with different chemical and mechanical approaches or combinations, on different types of layers. Often, the objective was to find the actual site of a failure, and expose the layer or layers involved, to try to find the actual physical reason for the electrical or functional failure. Sometimes this got complex, such as removing a minute particle of contamination, and putting it thru a Mass Spectrometer to try to find out what the heck it was. They had "Signatures" for various contaminants, including, as I recall, cosmetics, human epithelial cells, dust mites, various fabric fibres, etc. Sometimes, they tried to keep the lower layers in working condition! Partially delayered chips were sometimes operated, in a vacuum, with a low-power scanning electron microscope as a probe. It was possible to extract waveforms, or scan multiple points to create a logic-analyzer type display. And the graphics were neat, with voltages from 0 to 5 volts displayed as shades of gray. As a test system designer, I thought this stuff was way cool, and I once proposed building a complete test system that included and drove the scanning electron microscope, and produced graphics displays in real time. I estimated only $500,000 (including the software!). It got shot down. 5 to 7 years later they spent over a million on a Siemens (I think) system that did pretty much the same thing. Oh well. Regards, Terry King ...On The Mediterranean in Carthage, Tunisia terry at terryking.us From sastevens at earthlink.net Fri Jan 27 17:39:19 2006 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:39:19 -0500 Subject: Pinnacle Micro Apex drives In-Reply-To: <200601270931550766.33A0CE86@10.0.0.252> References: <200601270931550766.33A0CE86@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060127183919.1d16076c.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 09:31:55 -0800 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > These are the 4.6 GB magneto-optical drives marketed about 10 years ago by > the now-defunct Pinnacle. We had a few of them and every single one of > them went bad (laser head) in less than a year. Repair costs were > significant and there was a big backlog. > > I note that one can still find a few of these on ePay in one of two > conditions; (a) powers up and otherwise unknown and (b) good tested, > warranteed working. The (a) type usually can be had for less than $20 and > the (b) type for $400+. > > Here's my question. I have a few old Apex MO cartridges that I'd like to > read, but my curiosity doesn't extend far enough to spend $400-800 to > satisfy. Has anyone had any favorable experience with the (a) type drives > or are they all pretty much non-functional? I'm just trying to determine > if it's worth the trouble. > > On a related subject, are there any other drives that will read the Apex > carts? > A mildly risky method to use would be to buy one of the tested good drives. Read your cartridges, then sell the drive off to someone else. This will only work if there is reasonable turnover of the drives on eBay. If someone just has them listed in the off chance someone will need one, you could end up stuck with it. But one thing for certain is that you could absolutely vouch for it as being in 'good working order' after using it to read your carts. From sastevens at earthlink.net Fri Jan 27 19:02:46 2006 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:02:46 -0500 Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060127200246.4f99eb07.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 16:12:38 -0800 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > At 12:00 PM -0700 1/27/06, Richard wrote: > >Well, if I am going to get the latest OpenVMS hobbyist edition, I'd > >need to hook a SCSI CD-ROM drive up to it. I think I have one on the > >shelf somewhere. > > It needs to be more than just a SCSI CD-ROM, it must support 512-byte blocks. > SCSI CD-ROM drives that support 512-byte blocks aren't nearly as hard to find these days as they once were. There are now tons of obsolete Macintosh machines with suitable drives. Just about any beige-box PCI Power Mac (i.e. the 7200/7300/7500 systems) has a CD drive in it that will work. Something I was happy to discover a few years back, after which I started putting Apple drives in a lot of my Sparc boxes that didn't have drives. There are still people who advertise 'cd-rom drive that will work in your Sparc' deals on eBay but they are mostly opportunists at this point. From adamg at pobox.com Fri Jan 27 19:08:27 2006 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 20:08:27 -0500 Subject: DEC stuff for sale Message-ID: <20060128010827.GA40999@silme.pair.com> Hi all. I'm looking to sell the following DEC stuff: 5 MicroVAX 2000s. All have RD54s, Ethernet, bottom expansion and between 4 and 14MB of RAM. All power up to the >>> prompt. Some boot to VMS, some don't. The RD54s are questionable, 1 of them seems to be bad. M1502 bus output interface board, in d|i|g|i|t|a|l packaging 2 PDP-11/04s, bad condition VAXstation 3100 M30, boots to >>>, Conner 100MB SCSI drive (wiped), floppy VAXstation 3100 M38 (might actually be M10 in an M38 case), untested MicroVAX 3100 KA41 (M20 or M20e?), TZ30 tape, RZ23-E hdd, untested MicroVAX 3100 M10, RZ23-E hdd, TZ30 tape, untested I may be willing to test these machines for a serious buyer. MicroVAX II, BA23, TK50, RD53-A, belonged to DEC?, with M3106 DZQ11 x2, M9047 bus grant, M7555 RQDX3, M7546 TQK50, M7607 memory, Standard Memories MM-169 w/ 144x HM50256, M7606 KA630 Untested, DC wiring harness not inspected! Cables: bc17y-03, 50 pin 3 row male-male scsi? cable - 3 that look OK and 1 with a bent shell that could be bent back centronics m to hd68 m, screws centronics m to hd68 m, clips Please email me with questions or offers for part or all if interested. I'll ship the cables and M1502 but the computers are pickup/delivery only in the Los Angeles area. -- Adam From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 27 20:30:51 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:30:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board Message-ID: <20060128023051.61956.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> what about asics, fplds, fpgar, vlsis (the latter being of most interest to me), etc. etc. etc. Can those be readily reverse engineered. Say you had a *bad* vlsi, and a block diagram of its innards. Could the *details* be worked out, and would it be feasible to reproduce it as an fpga? --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > (and contents) when it was removed from the circuit. Or else redisign and > > use a PAL or some form or programmable logic that has a security fuse to > > prevent it from being read. > > Oh come on. PALs are about as secure as a cardboard front door. > > If you're going to allow unpackaging the chip, then remember that PAls > used the old fusible-link technology. And those links will be in the top > metalisation layer. You could see which ones were intact and which were > blown with a microscope. And I guess if you could open up a new example > of the same make and type of PAL without damaging it, you could blow the > links one at a time and keep on looking at the chip to work out which was > which. > > But why go to all that trouble? Even if the security fuse is blown, it's > possible to reverse-engineer a PAL using well-known techniques of > applying various inputs and looking at the outputs. With a PAL there is > no way to have a hidden variable. Any flip-flop in the chip (wether part > of thr 'R' of a registered PAL, or made from the AND/OR matrix) will > appear on one of the pins (this is not true of GALs, unfortunately). So > with a PAL it's relatively easy to work out what's going on. > > -tony __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 27 20:37:15 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 18:37:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board Message-ID: <20060128023715.69751.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> so by your reckoning not all of the asics are readily reproduceable. What about the gate array on the graphics board (lets pretend there wasnt a primitive ttl prototype to guide)? What about the 7220 itself? Now something like that is bound to have loads of docs. --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > > On 1/27/2006 at 11:33 AM Joe R. wrote: > > > > > Photograph it yes but a schematic is MUCH more involved since all dies > > >have multiple layers. It's sort of like trying to make a schematic of a > > >multilayer circuit board when all you can see is the top layer. > > > > Ditto that--and recall that we're talking here about an old graphics > > controller; no crypto and (relatively) very old technology. I'd rather > > If we're talking about the Epson QX10, then there's no problem at all. > > The later version of the board (which is what's in both my machines) > contaisn a 7220 (data sheet available), 16 RAMs, a bit of TTL and an > Epson gate array. But the technical manual shows schematics for that _and > for an earlier version_. That doesn't have the gate array, it has more > TTL and a character generator EPROM. > > There must be some differences between the 'extra' TTL and the gate array > (IIRC there's a latch on a bus in one version that's not in the other), > but they are sufficiently similar that you could recreate a replacement > for the gate array based on the schematics in the manual. The only thing > you wouldn't have is the exact font of the character generator, but I am > sure you could create something that was readable. > > A bigger problem in maintaing the QX10 are the 2 hybrids in the SMPSU > (but IIRC part-scheamtics without component values are in the manual) and > the 2 ASCIS on the floopy drive. And you'd have probllems swapping out > the complete drive as this is a 1/3rd height unit (not to mention the > fact that you'd want to keep the original one since it's an interesting > voice-coil unit). > > -tony > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 27 21:03:32 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 19:03:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board Message-ID: <20060128030332.51246.qmail@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> possibly by using a planer or shaper - seldom used in machine shops these days, but there was a shaper type tool used in the movie adaptation of the Andromeda Strain. And surface uniformities of .000025 inches (25/1000000 inches) can be produced in metals using essentially a sharpened chisel - a process known as hand scraping. A precision reference and a die is used to expose high spots, which are cyclically removed with the scraper. --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > I don't know about grinding, but the guy at MIT who figured out the Xbox > > innards did something of the sort (regardless, it's a great read): > > A guy I went to school with does this for Motorola. He gets chips back > that are failing in the field and dissects them to find out what went > wrong. > > I think the actual process involves shaving rather than grinding. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Jan 28 06:17:36 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 13:17:36 +0100 Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <20060128023051.61956.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060128023051.61956.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43DB60E0.5030606@bluewin.ch> Chris M wrote: > what about asics, fplds, fpgar, vlsis (the latter > being of most interest to me), etc. etc. etc. Can > those be readily reverse engineered. Say you had a > *bad* vlsi, and a block diagram of its innards. Could > the *details* be worked out, and would it be feasible > to reproduce it as an fpga? It is possible. If you have access to the right equipment, unlimited time and busloads of money. If you meant to say : I want to repair this machine which has a broken unobtainable vlsi chip, then forget it . A oneoff copy of a vlsi chip in a FPGA is just plain too much work. The easiest solution is to recreate the design from scratch, using VHDL or Verilog. Understanding the machine that the chip was operating in is much more important than shaving bits of a defective chip trying to obtain a schematic. Jos Dreesen From emu at ecubics.com Sat Jan 28 07:42:57 2006 From: emu at ecubics.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 06:42:57 -0700 Subject: DEC stuff for sale In-Reply-To: <20060128010827.GA40999@silme.pair.com> References: <20060128010827.GA40999@silme.pair.com> Message-ID: <43DB74E1.5050909@ecubics.com> I would be definitely interested in all of the microvax2000, if you would consider shipping to colorado. Cheers, emanuel Adam Goldman wrote: > Hi all. I'm looking to sell the following DEC stuff: > > 5 MicroVAX 2000s. All have RD54s, Ethernet, bottom expansion and between > 4 and 14MB of RAM. All power up to the >>> prompt. Some boot to VMS, some > don't. The RD54s are questionable, 1 of them seems to be bad. > > M1502 bus output interface board, in d|i|g|i|t|a|l packaging > From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Jan 28 08:27:15 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 09:27:15 -0500 Subject: Fixing CoCo3's (was: grinding down chips... In-Reply-To: <43DB60E0.5030606@bluewin.ch> References: <20060128023051.61956.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <20060128023051.61956.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060128092017.01bef988@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel may have mentioned these words: >If you meant to say : I want to repair this machine which has a broken >unobtainable vlsi chip, then forget it . A oneoff copy of a vlsi chip >in a FPGA is just plain too much work. With all due respect, *please* keep that attitude away from the Tandy Color Computer List! :-O There are people doing *exactly that* to try to keep our beloved CoCo3's running once the GIME chip start giving up the magic smoke in quantity. In the immortal words of Bartles & Jaymes: Thank you for your support. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sat Jan 28 10:09:33 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 17:09:33 +0100 Subject: RK611 schematics Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22F2@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I have done some measurements while running XXDP ZR6A??.???. Although I cannot explain some signals I got the controller working! First, the S/R flip flop E46 (UB5) gets the reset pulse on pin 1. On the output (pin 5) is a 'continuous' pulse train, and I also see pulses on the SET input (pin 4). So going a bit more back on the signals, I checked the 4-input NAND E5 ... although all 4 inputs (xxx COMBINED ERROR L) are continuous "1", I see lots of pulses on the output pin 8 ...? Perhaps I have missed something, but as the 4 inputs are "combined" error signals, I decided to remove the flat cable from M7904 to the bulkhead. Don't ask me how that idea came up. To my surprise, the diagnostic test ran without reporting any error! I ran all diagnostics (ZR6A thru ZR6E) for several passes, except ZR6C because one pass needed approx 13 minutes. ZR6D runs for approx 3:15 and ZR6E for approx 5 minutes, but all reported *zero* errors in several passes. I have not checked out that flat cable, but now that I have the printset, I also know from the printset that the flat cable between the M7904 and the bulkhead should be a BC06R. Also the "red stripe" is clearly indicated, so I am 100% sure I connected everything correctly. Time to connect one RK07 drive with termination on the OUT channel. The .DIR DM0: command still reports the same error, but "something" happens when I enter the .INIT DM0: command. Then I get an error as I previously reported. I removed the rear cover, to see the head movement. On .INIT the head moves fast to the centre, and then back to cylinder 0. I tried .FORMAT DM0: Again, the 11/34 seems to be hung, but that is *NOT* the case: I see the head make small steps (hardly visible) ... it is no hung on the 11/34, the drive is formatting the cartridge! Finally I get the RT11 prompt, but also a message that the formatting is aborted due to too many bad blocks. But is was working, so I tried .DIR DM0: ... no error now, the drive reports 0 files and some 56??? block free! Next I copied a small program to the RK07. The I entered .RUN DM0:HELLO, and I get "Hello world" on the terminal! When I try to copy a big file to DM0 I get an output error, but that makes sense. I have a few more RK07 cartridges, but I will first run the other diagnostics that use the RK07 drive. I must thank Tony. Without his replies I probably would have done nothing for a few weeks. Because he put some of his time in helping I felt obligated to keep going ... thanks, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From paulrsm at buckeye-express.com Sat Jan 28 10:28:07 2006 From: paulrsm at buckeye-express.com (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 11:28:07 -0500 Subject: UCSD Pascal and s100 manuals Message-ID: <43DB9B97.6E8AEF38@buckeye-express.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > 404. > The pages on s100-manuals.com actually link to > s100-manuals.net for the UCSD Pascal stuff... My mistake. I downloaded my copy last June. Another good source for P-system stuff is http://www.threedee.com/jcm/psystem/ -- Paul R. Santa-Maria Monroe, Michigan USA From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Jan 28 11:13:05 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 09:13:05 -0800 Subject: What are these from? In-Reply-To: <200601251501430889.2A821495@10.0.0.252> References: <200601251501430889.2A821495@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601280913050183.46B21976@192.168.42.129> Hi, Chuck, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 25-Jan-06 at 15:01 Chuck Guzis wrote: >I stumbled (again--that will give you an idea of how well I'm organized) >on >a couple cards I didn't even know that I had. > >Anyone got any idea of what they're from? First, let me say that both of the boards look very much like they're refugees from telephone switchgear, possibly microwave related. In the case of the smaller one, I would wager it's out of the first ESS (Electronic Switching System) that Western Electric built in the late 60's. What makes me think so is the overall gray color of its panel, the orange color of the board coating (WeCo was very fond of using sheet steel with an Epoxy coating for their PC boards before they finally switched to G4 fiberglass in the late 70's), and the way the components are layed out with lots of extra lead length. The larger board looks older, probably early to mid-60's, and I would wager that it's out of early long-haul microwave equipment, probably an analog T1 shelf. I'm led to these beliefs by the fact that the traces look very much like they're done from hand-drawn artwork, as opposed to the smaller one which looks machine-aided, and the designations on the panel ("Channel Logic" and "2D1-MW"). If I'm right about the origins of the smaller board, it could have considerable interest to someone who collects older telephone gear. I would keep them both intact and, if they're of interest or use to you, offer them to a collector from the phone field. Try this web site for some ideas: http://atcaonline.com/ This leads to the Antique Telephone Collectors Association. Happy hunting. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From tpeters at mixcom.com Sat Jan 28 11:20:04 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 11:20:04 -0600 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060128111151.0b35a170@localhost> From the KB9Q Newsletter, 1/27/2006 edition: FREE TO A GOOD HOME... Teletype equipment... A model 28 ASR with lots of bells and whistles, a model 14, and tape reader, plus various other pieces of teletype related items... Contact John, KB9PBM 262-781-5196 {home} ... 262-470-5196{cell} I doubt he will ship. This would be Waukesha county, Southeastern Wisconsin, most likely. I don't know this fellow personally but I thought someone who is interested in this gear should know about it, because he's already stated he will toss the stuff in the dumpster if no one expresses interest. -T [Philosophy] There is nothing that somebody, somewhere, will not consider immoral. --Jan.Six at uku.fi --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 28 11:47:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 09:47:58 -0800 Subject: What are these from? In-Reply-To: <200601280913050183.46B21976@192.168.42.129> References: <200601251501430889.2A821495@10.0.0.252> <200601280913050183.46B21976@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <200601280947580961.38D5D797@10.0.0.252> On 1/28/2006 at 9:13 AM Bruce Lane wrote: > If I'm right about the origins of the smaller board, it could have >considerable interest to someone who collects older telephone gear. I >would keep them both intact and, if they're of interest or use to you, >offer them to a collector from the phone field. Try this web site for some >ideas: > > http://atcaonline.com/ > > This leads to the Antique Telephone Collectors Association. > > Happy hunting. Thanks Bruce--I thought that at least one was telco and that both may be. I don't recall where I got the stuff--I think it was with a lot of reed relays and other components (including quite a quantity of TO3 1N284 diodes) that I suspected may have been telco refugees. I'll let the old phone guys know what I've got and see if they'd like any of it. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 28 13:10:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 11:10:01 -0800 Subject: Pinnacle Micro Apex drives In-Reply-To: <20060127183919.1d16076c.sastevens@earthlink.net> References: <200601270931550766.33A0CE86@10.0.0.252> <20060127183919.1d16076c.sastevens@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200601281110010246.3920F26B@10.0.0.252> On 1/27/2006 at 6:39 PM Scott Stevens wrote: >A mildly risky method to use would be to buy one of the tested >good drives. Read your cartridges, then sell the drive off to >someone else. This will only work if there is reasonable >turnover of the drives on eBay. If someone just has them listed >in the off chance someone will need one, you could end up stuck >with it. "Midly risky" may be an understatement. In my own experience, these things would go south for apparently no good reason at all. (e.g. simply stop working in the middle of writing a disk). If I could get one with a 90 day warrantee, I might be tempted. I suspect that the Apex problem was a not insignificant factor contributing to the bankruptcy of Pinnacle. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 28 06:37:23 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:37:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060127210831.628fa952@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jan 27, 6 09:08:31 pm Message-ID: > > OK genius, you suggest something that NO ONE can break! I'm sure the > CIA, FBI, MI-5 and the Mafia would all love to know about it. Hmmm... A RAM-based FPGA (something like a Xilinx XC3000 or XC4000 series), battery-backed supply, configured, and then the configuration memory removed should keep you guessing... Removing the fevice from the board would lose the configuration, and I doubt if you could remove the encapsulation without losing it either. Actually, reverse-engineering an FPGA from the configuration data is a non-trivial task as the format of said data is undocumented. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 28 06:42:17 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:42:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <20060127183111.23a4b4f7.sastevens@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jan 27, 6 06:31:11 pm Message-ID: > At one point I had a lot of house-marked ceramic chip packages > that I thought were DRAM but couldn't be certain of. Since they > were in cerdip packages, it was easy to use a cold chisel to > split one of them open. And I used a microscope to look at the > die, and sure enough, it was marked as a 4116 DRAM part. I used > the rest of the parts as 4116s. This would be MUCH more > difficult with plastic parts. > Ayone else remember the 'Optic RaM', a poor-man's image sensor. >From what I remember they were a normal DRAM chip with a quartz lid to the package (it's been suggested you could take a cerdip 4116 or 4164, knock off the top and replkce it with a window). The idea was you focussed an image onto the chip. Stored 1's in all locations, waited a bit and read out the contents. Those cells which had been exposed to enough light would read out as 0's. Do it again with different waiting times (note, once you've read out a pattern, you've lost the charge stored in the cells, you have to start again, you can't read the chip repeatedly without filling it with 1's), combine the resulting bit patterns to get a sort-of grey scale image. Disadvantages were the fact you had to capture the same image several times to get that grey scale, and the fact that there was an insensitive strip down the middle of the die where the address logic, etc was. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 28 06:51:49 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 12:51:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <20060128023715.69751.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jan 27, 6 06:37:15 pm Message-ID: > > so by your reckoning not all of the asics are readily > reproduceable. What about the gate array on the > graphics board (lets pretend there wasnt a primitive > ttl prototype to guide)? What about the 7220 itself? > Now something like that is bound to have loads of > docs. I think there's enough published data on the 7220, and enough working samples around to be able to design a replacement without copying the existing IC. It would be a lot of work, sure, the 7220 is not a simple chip. As regards the other ASICs in a QX10, the problem is that some of them contain considerable analogue circuitry, and certainly couldn't be replaced by an FPGA (IIRC the mains chopper transistor is in one of the PSU hybrids). But I thinkit would be possible to work out a replacement. The disk drive ASICs are harder in that I have no idea what the exact functions of them is. That is something I intend to look at fairly soon, actually. See what the pins do during a seek, etc. In general there are 4 classes to consider : 1) Well-documented, simple. For example a 555 timer. It should be possible to make an exact functional replacement from the docs alone. 2) Undocumented, simple. For example a programmed PAL. Simple enough that given a working example of the chip and maybe the schematic it's used in, you could work out a series of tests to identify the internal logic and make some other device that would do the same thing. 3) Documented, complicated. For example the Z80. Again you'd not need to actually inspect the chip. Thre are Z80-a-likes around (e.g. as programs for FPGAs) that seem to have been designed based on the behaviour of a real Z80. 4) Undocumetned, complicated. A large ASIC, ULA, etc. Since yoy've almost certainly got hidden state, you can't always work out what's going on from outside. At this point you may well have to consdier removing the encapsulation. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 28 15:14:56 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 21:14:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK611 schematics In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22F2@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Jan 28, 6 05:09:33 pm Message-ID: > > I have done some measurements while running XXDP ZR6A??.???. > Although I cannot explain some signals I got the controller working! > = > > First, the S/R flip flop E46 (UB5) gets the reset pulse on pin 1. OK... > On the output (pin 5) is a 'continuous' pulse train, and I also see pulses Hang on, there can't be. Assuming there's not a continuous stream of reset pulses too, E46 can't be setting and resetting. What instrument are you using to check these signals? Do you know it's got the right thresholds for TTL logic? What are you using as the ground reference? > on the SET input (pin 4). So going a bit more back on the signals, > I checked the 4-input NAND E5 ... although all 4 inputs (xxx COMBINED ERROR= > L) > are continuous "1", I see lots of pulses on the output pin 8 ...? Again, impossible unless eirhter E5 is malfunctioning, or you're not actually seeing what's at that point. I hate to say this, but I suspect the instrument and/or its use. > Perhaps I have missed something, but as the 4 inputs are "combined" error > signals, I decided to remove the flat cable from M7904 to the bulkhead. > Don't ask me how that idea came up. I would love to know which of those signals was actually to blame. I've traced ech of them back onto the other boards, but the logic quickly becomes complicated, and I don't want to go too deeply into an irrelevant area... > To my surprise, the diagnostic test ran without reporting any error! > = Sounds like noise pickuop on the cable or something. Looking at RG6 COMBINED ERROR L, for example, it's a combination of bits read back from the drive status shift registess on sheet RG6. The input to that lot comes from the drive cable receicers on sheet DR8, so noise there could well cause problems. > Time to connect one RK07 drive with termination on the OUT channel. > The .DIR DM0: command still reports the same error, but "something" > happens when I enter the .INIT DM0: command. Then I get an error as > I previously reported. I removed the rear cover, to see the head movement.= > > On .INIT the head moves fast to the centre, and then back to cylinder 0 > I tried .FORMAT DM0: Again, the 11/34 seems to be hung, but that is > *NOT* the case: I see the head make small steps (hardly visible) ... If you fold out the logic cage in the RK07, you should see a 00 01 10 pattern on the head select LEDs and a binary count on the cylinder LEDs. > it is no hung on the 11/34, the drive is formatting the cartridge! > Finally I get the RT11 prompt, but also a message that the formatting is > aborted due to too many bad blocks. Right. I'd be interested to know if, perhaps, one surface is completely bad and you have head, head switch, or something like that, problems. I've not got the diagnostics, but I wonder if one of those programs could tell you that sort of thing. > But is was working, so I tried .DIR DM0: ... no error now, the drive report= > s > 0 files and some 56??? block free! Next I copied a small program to the > RK07. The I entered .RUN DM0:HELLO, and I get "Hello world" on the > terminal! When I try to copy a big file to DM0 I get an output error, > but that makes sense. > = > > I have a few more RK07 cartridges, but I will first run the other diagnosti= > cs > that use the RK07 drive. I must thank Tony. Without his replies I probably= > > would have done nothing for a few weeks. Because he put some of his time in= > > helping I felt obligated to keep going ... > = Thank you for that. I was fairly close to leaving this list due to the amount of flamage I seem to receive, but I'll stay while I'm still managing to help people to keep these fine old machines going. -tony From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jan 28 15:29:46 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:29:46 -0600 Subject: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available] In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060128111151.0b35a170@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060128111151.0b35a170@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060128152249.05504d30@mail> At 11:20 AM 1/28/2006, Tom Peters wrote: >From the KB9Q Newsletter, 1/27/2006 edition: >FREE TO A GOOD HOME... >Teletype equipment... A model 28 ASR with lots of bells and whistles, a model 14, and tape reader, plus various other pieces of teletype related items... >Contact John, KB9PBM 262-781-5196 {home} ... 262-470-5196{cell} I talked to this fellow. I'm tempted to get the 28 myself if I can clear a space in the basement for it. He has a 14 (not a 2B, but with tape and reperf), a HAL ST-6000, a desk of a 15, maybe some other items. He's in Butler, WI. One of those situations where the wife says "it all must go." - John From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 28 16:31:14 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:31:14 -0700 Subject: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available] In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 28 Jan 2006 15:29:46 -0600. <6.2.3.4.2.20060128152249.05504d30@mail> Message-ID: In article <6.2.3.4.2.20060128152249.05504d30 at mail>, John Foust writes: > He's in Butler, WI. One of those situations where the wife > says "it all must go." Road Trip!! How many of you have done a road trip to get equipment? - travelled 50 miles? - travelled 100 miles? - travelled 250 miles? - travelled 500 miles? - travelled 750 miles? - travelled 1,000+ miles? My big road trip adventure was driving to Sparks, NV from Salt Lake City (about 575 miles), renting a U-haul trailer and picking up an 11/03 with dual RL01s, including VT100, LA120-AA, original manuals, and 23 RL01 disk packs. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Jan 28 16:41:01 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 14:41:01 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Electronic equipment for sale References: <000001c62457$b8f868c0$d0950544@carlb> Message-ID: <200601281441010445.47DE57C4@192.168.42.129> Listmembers, This is a forwarded copy of an E-mail I received from a fellow in San Clemente that is looking to sell assorted test and 'classic' computing goodies. He's taking offers. Please contact him directly. I DO NOT HAVE THIS EQUIPMENT! Please do NOT contact me about it. Thanks much. *********** BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE *********** On 28-Jan-06 at 14:11 Carl Buchanan wrote: >Keithly 196 System DMM?2 >Tektronix Scope T922R 15 MHz Scope 1 >Tektronix Scope 2430A?150 MHz Digitizing Scope with Service Manuals 1 >each Tektronix Scope 2225 Analog Dual Channel 50 MHz Scope with Service >manuals 1 each >Tektronix Scope D40 Analog High Frequency Scope with Modules plus >service manuals 1 each >Tektronix Scope Module FG501A 2 MHz Function Generator?1 each >Tektronix Scope Module SG505 10Hz-100kHz Ultra-Low Distortion Oscillator >1 each >Tektronix Scope Module 5A22N 1MHz Differential Amplifier 2 each >Tektronix Scope Module 5A14N 1MHz Four Channel Amplifier Plug-in 1 >each >Solartron 1250 Frequency Response Analyzer 1 each >HP 2225A HPIP Think Jet Printer RS232 1 each >HP 2225A HPIP Think Jet Printer Stand 1 each >HP 7470A HP 7470A Two-pen Graphics Plotter Red & Black 3 each >HP 6824A DC Power Supply Amplifier plus or minus 50V at 1 AMP and manual >1 >HP-85 Computer?with manuals and software and ROMS 1 each >HP-85 00085-15002 Plotter/Printer ROM 1 each >HP-85 00085-15003 Input/Output ROM 4 each > >HP-85 00085-15004 Matrix ROM 1 each > HP-85 00085-15005 Advanced Programming ROM 3 each >HP-85 00085-15012 Electronic Disc ROM Boxed 1 each >HP-85 00085-15013 Extended Mass Storage ROM 1 each >HP-87 Computer, manuals and ROMS 1 each >HP-87 00087-15002 Plotter/Printer ROM Rev B 1 each >HP-87 00087-15003 Input/Output ROM Rev A 2 >HP-87 00087-15004 Matrix ROM 1 each >HP-87 00087-15005 Advanced Programming ROM 1 Rev A 2 each > >HP-87 00087-15005 Advanced Programming ROM 2 Rev B 2 each >HP-87 00087-15012 Electronic Disc ROM Rev A 1 each >HP-87 00087-15013 Extended Mass Storage ROM Rev A 2 >HP 82903A 16 K Memory Module 3 each >HP 82907A 32 K Memory Module 1 each >HP 82909A 128 K Memory Module 1 each >HP 82936A HP ROM Drawer 7 each >HP 82937A HP-IB Interface 1 each >HP 82937A HP-IB Interface Boxed 1 each >HP 82939A HP Serial Interface 1 each >HP 82939A HP Serial Interface with Option 1 1 each >HP 82939A HP Serial Interface with Option (001) Boxed 1 each >HP 3478A 5.5 Segment Digital Multimeter with service manual 1 >each >HP 8904A Multifunction Synthesizer, DC-600 KHz Service Manuals >California Instruments 251 TC with 850 T California Instruments >AC Power Source and controller 1 each >California Instruments 351 TC with 855 T California Instruments >AC Power Source and controller 1 each >Data Precision 6000 & 630 Module Unit with Manuals 1 each >Data Precision 3600 6 digit Digital Multi Meter 2 each >Data Precision 5740 Frequency Counter 2 each >Wavetek 132 VCG/Noise Generator 2 each >Wavetek 171 2 MHz Synthesizer Function Generator Oscillator 1 each >Wavetek 180 2 MHz Sweep Function Generator 1 each >Wavetek 185 5 MHz Synthesizer Function Generator Oscillator 1 each >Wavetek 21 11 MHz Stabilized Function Generator?1 each >Wavetek 23 Synthizised Function Generator 12 MHz w / GPIB >General Radio 1310-A 2 Hz to 2 MHz Oscillator?1 each >Fluke 7260A Fluke Universal Counter/Timer 1 each >AC Research Model 412 AC Research Hypot JR with >ESI 253 LCR Meter 1 each >ESI Deka-Pot DP111 Varible Resitor 10 K Ohms 1 each >ESI Kelvin Varley Divider DP1211 Voltage Divider 10 K Ohms 1 each >ESI Kelvin Varley Divider DP1311 Voltage Divider 100 K Ohms 1 each >ESI DEKASTAT DS1464 Decade Resistor 1.2K ohms > >Hewlett Packard HP 10833D GPIB Cables 0.5 Meter 1 each > >Hewlett Packard HP 10833A GPIB Cables 1 Meter 3 each > >Hewlett Packard HP 10833B GPIB Cables 2.0 Meter 6 each > >Hewlett Packard HP 10833C GPIB Cables 4.0 Meter 2 each > >American Reliance P/S PD30-2D Programmable Power Supply 1 each > > >Buchanan Electronics 629 Via Merluza San Clemente CA 92673 > >Payable to carl04 at cox.net >Carl Buchanan >629 Via Merluza >San Clemente CA 92673 >949.388.9648 > > > *********** END FORWARDED MESSAGE *********** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jan 28 16:56:18 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 16:56:18 -0600 Subject: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available] References: Message-ID: <010101c6245e$0de64b80$6b406b43@66067007> See below ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 4:31 PM Subject: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available] > > In article <6.2.3.4.2.20060128152249.05504d30 at mail>, > John Foust writes: > >> He's in Butler, WI. One of those situations where the wife >> says "it all must go." > > Road Trip!! > > How many of you have done a road trip to get equipment? > - travelled 50 miles? > - travelled 100 miles? > - travelled 250 miles each way? A trip to Minn to Il to get a van load > of Cromemco stuff > - travelled 500+ miles each way? A trip to Tulsa OK, half full van from > the trip > - travelled 750 miles? > - travelled 1,200+ miles each way? Several trips to Minn/St. Paul MN > rented 24'-30' box trucks each time > > My big road trip adventure was driving to Sparks, NV from Salt Lake > City (about 575 miles), renting a U-haul trailer and picking up an > 11/03 with dual RL01s, including VT100, LA120-AA, original manuals, > and 23 RL01 disk packs. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 28 16:56:44 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 14:56:44 -0800 Subject: EPLD vs. FPGA Message-ID: <200601281456440414.39F08124@10.0.0.252> I recently picked up a PCB for chip scavenging and noted that in addition to the chips I was interested in, a couple of Altera EPM7192 EPLDs were mounted thereon. I'm somewhat ashamed to admit it, but I've never fooled with EPLDs. Are these things worth tinkering with, or are they hopelessly outdated technology and best consigned to the dustbin? Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jan 28 17:33:50 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 23:33:50 +0000 Subject: Ebay Northstar Horizon In-Reply-To: <43da2203.427f81dd.6b42.55ee@mx.gmail.com> References: <43da2203.427f81dd.6b42.55ee@mx.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43DBFF5E.4060808@yahoo.co.uk> Robert Stek wrote: > FWIW, AFAIK & IIRC (I just love abbrev.) the metal-cased Horizon did not > appear until several years after NorthStar made its appearance with its > original model. The wooden case was veneered plywood stained walnut in > color. I don't believe that it was walnut veneer. I'm back on the list after a break so this may have been raised already - but I've heard from several people over time that metal-cased Horizons were much more common on this side of the pond than in the US. I'm sure the wooden ones were first, but maybe for whatever reason production of metal-cased ones happened much earlier in Europe than it did in the States? cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jan 28 17:36:36 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 23:36:36 +0000 Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060127210831.628fa952@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060127101019.441734dc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060127210831.628fa952@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <43DC0004.4000200@yahoo.co.uk> Joe R. wrote: > OK genius, you suggest something that NO ONE can break! I'm sure the > CIA, FBI, MI-5 and the Mafia would all love to know about it. That bit's easy - producing something that nobody can break but that authorised viewers can still decrypt is the tricky part ;-) From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Jan 28 18:01:16 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 00:01:16 GMT Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060127101019.441734dc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060127101019.441734dc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: In message <3.0.6.16.20060127101019.441734dc at pop-server.cfl.rr.com> "Joe R." wrote: > You'd probaly better with battery backed RAM that would lose it power > (and contents) when it was removed from the circuit. Or else redisign and > use a PAL or some form or programmable logic that has a security fuse to > prevent it from being read. Problem is, SRAM has this annoying tendency of storing data for a really long time if it's frozen beforehand. It also tends to "remember" data bits that have been stored in the memory cells without any writes for a long time. Both of these "behavioural artifacts" have been documented extensively. It is, however, a minute past midnight and I honestly can't remember where I read about this... -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... Monday is the root of all evil! From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Jan 28 18:08:36 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:08:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Problem is, SRAM has this annoying tendency of storing data for a really long > time if it's frozen beforehand. > It also tends to "remember" data bits that have been stored in the memory > cells without any writes for a long time. Magnetic media also has a pretty good "memory", even after many, many erasings and rewrites. I seem to remember you can get the "history" of a magnetic area on a disk by looking at the very edges of that area, as it builds up like growth rings in a tree. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Jan 28 18:19:50 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 00:19:50 GMT Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message William Donzelli wrote: > Magnetic media also has a pretty good "memory", even after many, many > erasings and rewrites. I seem to remember you can get the "history" of a > magnetic area on a disk by looking at the very edges of that area, as it > builds up like growth rings in a tree. Solution: Melt the magnetic media down into a lump. For hard drives, use thermite. For magtapes, a nice hot fire - the hotter the better :) I'd love to see some TLA recover data from a hard drive that's been melted down into a misshapen lump of metal :) "What is that.. thing.. on the table?" "Modern Art, Officer." -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... Shh! Be vewy quiet, I'm hunting wuntime errors! From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 28 18:23:53 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 16:23:53 -0800 Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601281623530975.3A404C18@10.0.0.252> On 1/28/2006 at 7:08 PM William Donzelli wrote: >Magnetic media also has a pretty good "memory", even after many, many >erasings and rewrites. I seem to remember you can get the "history" of a >magnetic area on a disk by looking at the very edges of that area, as it >builds up like growth rings in a tree. As I recall, it's a long hard process. I'm trying to recall the original paper by some guy in Switzerland using a modified STM. I think he said he could retrieve about 1000 overwritten bits per hour. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 28 18:24:45 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 17:24:45 -0700 Subject: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available] In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 28 Jan 2006 16:56:18 -0600. <010101c6245e$0de64b80$6b406b43@66067007> Message-ID: In article <010101c6245e$0de64b80$6b406b43 at 66067007>, "Keys" writes: > > How many of you have done a road trip to get equipment? > > - travelled 50 miles? > > - travelled 100 miles? > > - travelled 250 miles each way? A trip to Minn to Il to get a van load > > of Cromemco stuff Wow! A van load of Cromemco stuff. I'm having a hard time picturing how much stuff that must have been to fill a van! > > - travelled 500+ miles each way? A trip to Tulsa OK, half full van from > > the trip Van half full of what? ;-) > > - travelled 750 miles? > > - travelled 1,200+ miles each way? Several trips to Minn/St. Paul MN > > rented 24'-30' box trucks each time Sounds like you were picking up minicomputer/mainframe iron? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Jan 28 18:47:46 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 00:47:46 GMT Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Ayone else remember the 'Optic RaM', a poor-man's image sensor. Oh yeah - the Micron IS32 OpticRAM... > From what I remember they were a normal DRAM chip with a quartz lid to > the package (it's been suggested you could take a cerdip 4116 or 4164, > knock off the top and replkce it with a window). You can - there's a file called "kuckuck.zip" floating around that contains schematics and documentation (in German IIRC). I'd love to get a few DRAMs to play with. ISTR the "kuckuck" file I mentioned calls for a NEC D4164 in CERDIP packaging with a gold cover - apparently you can put a soldering iron onto the cover then just push it off with a knife (it's soldered on). -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... Only in your dreams, Commander. ? Troi From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Jan 28 18:54:35 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 00:54:35 GMT Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <200601281623530975.3A404C18@10.0.0.252> References: <200601281623530975.3A404C18@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <588f90f04d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <200601281623530975.3A404C18 at 10.0.0.252> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > As I recall, it's a long hard process. I'm trying to recall the original > paper by some guy in Switzerland using a modified STM. I think he said he > could retrieve about 1000 overwritten bits per hour. Neat, but I doubt any TLA has that much time to burn on the recovery of a HDD. I've seen a few crypto apps turn up with "plausible deniability" type features. You basically encrypt two different versions of the file with two different encryption keys. One key gets you, say, a shopping list or a photo of a family pet while the other gets you some leaked source code or other incriminating stuff. The theory is, you can't tell that the "hidden" file is in there unless you have the key that goes with it. Well, in theory at least. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... A seminar on Time Travel will be held two weeks ago From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 28 18:52:54 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 00:52:54 GMT Subject: TK70 tape drive media? In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: TK70 tape drive media?" (Jan 27, 18:28) References: Message-ID: <10601290052.ZM27219@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 27 2006, 18:28, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 5:53 PM -0700 1/27/06, Richard wrote: > >In article , > > "Zane H. Healy" writes: > > > >> At 12:00 PM -0700 1/27/06, Richard wrote: > >> >Well, if I am going to get the latest OpenVMS hobbyist edition, I'd > >> >need to hook a SCSI CD-ROM drive up to it. I think I have one on the > >> >shelf somewhere. > >> > >> It needs to be more than just a SCSI CD-ROM, it must support > >>512-byte blocks. > > > >How can I tell? Its Toshiba SCSI CD-ROM model TXM3401E1 > > *GOOD* question. I don't see any actual indication. However, after > some Googling, I found this page http://questier.com/SGI/, since this > person is using one on his SGI Indigo, I'd say you're in luck. SGIs have similar problems to Suns, Vaxen, and several other machines, in needing drives that support 512-byte blocks. That's not quite the whole story, though. Some CD-ROM drives support a software command to switch to 512-byte blocks. Some machines can issue that command: later SGIs such as Indys do, Indigos don't (at least, the PROM doesn't; IRIX does). Toshiba XM3201, 3301, and 3401 have a set of pads that can be used to set the blocksize, and most of these drives don't support the software command. The XM3601, XM54xx and later do support the software command, and don't use the pads. For the 3401 and its mates, you need to look for two pairs of half-moon pads on the top side of the circit board, towards the right rear. The halves in each pair will normally be shorted together with a thin copper trace on the board, for standard 2048-byte blocks. They're often labelled "0" and "1". Leaving "0" shorted but opening "1" gives 512-byte blocks. "0" open and "1" shorted is what SGIs use for bootable drives. Suns and Intergraph machines have both open. All the settings except the factory default gives 512-byte blocks. The following is from an old SGI hardware FAQ: +++___++++++++__ |power SCSI | '0' '1' O=CUT/OPEN S=SHORTED/SOLDERED | 01| ---------- |----------------| S S Toshiba Default (2048 byte block) | | S O 512 byte blocks | TOP | O S SGI ( Bootable ) | OF | O O Sun / Integraph | DRIVE | | | | | | | |________________| DOOR -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From recycler at swbell.net Sat Jan 28 19:06:52 2006 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick Jankowiak) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:06:52 -0600 Subject: Megatek CAD term for VAX or Unix, TEK 4014 clone Message-ID: <43DC152C.3050401@swbell.net> this needs a home.. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8758295737 From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jan 28 19:09:49 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:09:49 -0600 Subject: HP triple bay rack seen Message-ID: <001501c62470$b42ea250$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Happened to come across this gorgeous triple bay HP rack. It's the perfect (accurate) type for an HP2000/TSB system. Correct PMU/PDU's, etc. http://www.alltronics.com/relay_racks.htm Scroll down about 9/10ths of the way... under heading "triple rack cabinets" http://www.alltronics.com/images/RackZZ.jpg is a bigger picture. If someone wants a really nice setup for HP gear, this is the right one :) Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jan 28 19:13:54 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:13:54 -0600 Subject: looking for rackmount keyboard/LCD Message-ID: <001901c62471$46fedcd0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Anyone have a used rackmount 1 or 2 or 3 U rackmount keyboard/LCD unit they'd be willing to trade/sell? If so, contact me offlist. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 28 19:19:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 17:19:31 -0800 Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601281719310560.3A7338E2@10.0.0.252> On 1/29/2006 at 12:47 AM Philip Pemberton wrote: >> From what I remember they were a normal DRAM chip with a quartz lid to >> the package (it's been suggested you could take a cerdip 4116 or 4164, >> knock off the top and replkce it with a window). I recall an early scanner that made no bones about doing just this. From what I recall, you charged the DRAM with ones or zeroes (don't recall which), exposed it to light and read it looking for discharged cells. You could do gray-scaling with several consecutive reads. This was back in the days of 4116/4164 and IIRC, it mattered whose DRAMs you used. Intels cells decayed pretty quickly, but the NEC parts would easily hold a bit for a few seconds. Cheers, Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Jan 28 20:03:43 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 21:03:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <200601281623530975.3A404C18@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > As I recall, it's a long hard process. Don't worry - the NSA has lots of time and money... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jan 28 20:19:33 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:19:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <200601272237290914.366FFEE1@10.0.0.252> References: <3.0.6.16.20060127101019.441734dc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060127210831.628fa952@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20060127193642.V90860@shell.lmi.net> <200601272237290914.366FFEE1@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060128175123.S15899@shell.lmi.net> > >So, you think that the NSA has cracked ROT13? > > Maybe NSA, but certainly not the FBI (IMOHE). How do they do with content that has been run through ROT13 TWICE? The CIA openly purchased, and registered, some copies of XenoCopy. The NSA never openly purchased, nor registered a copy, although the number of POBox purchases from Columbia, Maryland seemed high. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 28 20:41:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:41:14 -0800 Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: <20060128175123.S15899@shell.lmi.net> References: <3.0.6.16.20060127101019.441734dc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060127210831.628fa952@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20060127193642.V90860@shell.lmi.net> <200601272237290914.366FFEE1@10.0.0.252> <20060128175123.S15899@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200601281841140891.3ABE09F9@10.0.0.252> On 1/28/2006 at 6:19 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >> >So, you think that the NSA has cracked ROT13? >> >> Maybe NSA, but certainly not the FBI (IMOHE). > >How do they do with content that has been run through ROT13 TWICE? oooo...that would be tough for them. But they'd swagger around and claim that they had the best people for the job. They once (and for all I know, may still have) had their hearts set on automated forensics. Dump your hard disks, floppies and CD's in this magic machine and it would automagically dig up all the dirt. No experience necessary. They put the project out for bids and got really peeved when we didn't bid on it. I told them that their goal was unrealistic and that they'd constantly lag current technology. Instead they got one of the DC-area defense contractors to do the work. 400% over budget, they still had nothing. Ended up scrapping the whole project, but they still had a chip on their shoulder (I didn't say "I told you so", honest!). We should have probaby bid on the thing, but I had to much of a conscience. You know, that 20-year old hangover called Star Wars is STILL being funded (this year to the tune of $12B). Defense contractors have made a bundle and still can't hit the side of a barn with the thing. I can't talk about the spooks. Don't ask. Cheers, Chuck From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sat Jan 28 21:10:20 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C H. Dickman) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 22:10:20 -0500 Subject: RX02 and intel hex file tools Message-ID: <43DC321C.1000604@nktelco.net> I am building an eprom adapter for a DEC Unibus M9301 bootstrap terminator so I can use 8bit wide 2732 eproms in place of the 4bit wide fuse proms. The goal is to boot RX02 disks which the M9301 roms don't support Are there any good unix tools for manipulating intel hex files or any binary image files? I have the M9312 boot/diagnostic prom images which are intel hexfile. I modified Eric Smith's program so that I could obtain intel hexfile images of the proms that are not scrambled for the M9312. I need to join them and then create an image file so that my DataIO 201 burner will accept them. The burner can accept intel, motorola and tektronix formats. I have used the intel format, but not the other two with this burner. A quick search found srecord which claims to manipulate various formats, but is written in C++ (which I don't speak) and does not compile in Linux (Fedora Core 3). Basically, I need to take several binary images (now in intel hex), move them to a different address, join them together, and then burn them on an eprom. -chuck From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jan 28 21:17:01 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 21:17:01 -0600 Subject: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available] References: Message-ID: <014101c62482$79d9c0a0$6b406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 6:24 PM Subject: Re: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available] > Wow! A van load of Cromemco stuff. I'm having a hard time picturing > how much stuff that must have been to fill a van! It was a small Astro van filled with systems, parts, manuals, software, printers, and store signs. > >> > - travelled 500+ miles each way? A trip to Tulsa OK, half full van >> > from >> > the trip > > Van half full of what? ;-) A little bit of everything as we went to a classic show, flea markets (about 5), and thrift stores (about 6) over a three day period. > >> > - travelled 1,200+ miles each way? Several trips to Minn/St. Paul MN >> > rented 24'-30' box trucks each time > > Sounds like you were picking up minicomputer/mainframe iron? Yes, from 3M and the Uof M it took five trips. > -- From jhoger at pobox.com Sat Jan 28 22:58:00 2006 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 20:58:00 -0800 Subject: CP/M driver questions Message-ID: <1138510680.32376.307.camel@aragorn> I am attempting to build some code using BDS C for use on with our Model 100/102/200 memory upgrade ( http://bitchin100.com/remem_project.htm ). BDS C was the one (free) C compiler that I could find that had basic support for C syntax (it has pointers to structs, for example). Anyway, I have a few CP/M based laptops, an NEC 8500, 8401a, and an Amstrad NC200 (which can run "ZCN"). I'd like to use the NEC 8500 to compile some short C programs to 8080 assem and then use them on the Model 100. Here's the thing: the 8500 defaults to a mode where ROM takes 32K of the address space. It has several nice apps there but no programming language. I believe the machine has 64K of RAM, but the software won't let me switch to 64K all-ram mode unless I have an external drive attached (either a floppy disk drive controller or a ramdisk cartridge). I don't have either. In any event it's not real useful in all-ram mode without some kind of external storage containing applications and utilities. So here's my question: Can drivers for CP/M machines be loaded at run-time? My idea is that I could make a simple driver that communicates to some serial-based disk drive controller, or hopefully someone has already done something similar. How do I structure such a driver, and would it have to be part of CP/M or can I patch it in at run-time? -- John. From Useddec at aol.com Sat Jan 28 23:03:37 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 00:03:37 EST Subject: WD78, VT78, Decmate, Rainbow, Pro, I lost your info!! Message-ID: Hi, I have a total of 3 units, one or two of each (VT or WD). Feel free to make an offer. I can test them up to a point, or sell them as is. Feel free to make an offer. Anything else you need? Thanks, Paul From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 28 23:26:39 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 21:26:39 -0800 Subject: CP/M driver questions In-Reply-To: <1138510680.32376.307.camel@aragorn> References: <1138510680.32376.307.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: <200601282126390634.3B557947@10.0.0.252> On 1/28/2006 at 8:58 PM John R. Hogerhuis wrote: >Can drivers for CP/M machines be loaded at run-time? Sure, lots of systems have done that. >My idea is that I could make a simple driver that communicates to some >serial-based disk drive controller, or hopefully someone has already >done something similar. How do I structure such a driver, and would it >have to be part of CP/M or can I patch it in at run-time? One way is to MOVCPM your system to include some extra loose high memory. Patch the apprpriate CBIOS jump vectors for your routine. Alternatively, remember that everything goes through the CBIOS vector table. So how to dynamically patch something? Just allocate some space below the CCP area, duplicate the CBIOS vector table to just below your driver on a 256-byte boundary; below that, insert a jump 256 bytes lower to the BDOS entry, then adjust both the BDOS boot pointer at 0000 and the BDOS entry vector at 0005 to point to the BDOS jump. This should work for most things. I don't recall, but I believe that CP/M networks did something similar. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 28 23:32:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 22:32:40 -0700 Subject: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available] In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 28 Jan 2006 21:17:01 -0600. <014101c62482$79d9c0a0$6b406b43@66067007> Message-ID: In article <014101c62482$79d9c0a0$6b406b43 at 66067007>, "Keys" writes: > > Wow! A van load of Cromemco stuff. I'm having a hard time picturing > > how much stuff that must have been to fill a van! > It was a small Astro van filled with systems, parts, manuals, software, > printers, and store signs. You have a cromemco store sign?!? What's it like? > >> > - travelled 500+ miles each way? A trip to Tulsa OK, half full van > >> > from > >> > the trip > > > > Van half full of what? ;-) > A little bit of everything as we went to a classic show, flea markets (about > 5), and thrift stores (about 6) over a three day period. Sounds like a nice itinerary! I've been looking for some kind of flea market, HAM fest, etc., type thing in Salt Lake City and it seems that we just don't have one :-(. > >> > - travelled 1,200+ miles each way? Several trips to Minn/St. Paul MN > >> > rented 24'-30' box trucks each time > > > > Sounds like you were picking up minicomputer/mainframe iron? > Yes, from 3M and the Uof M it took five trips. Where do you store it all? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From technobug at comcast.net Sun Jan 29 00:56:26 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 23:56:26 -0700 Subject: HP triple bay rack seen In-Reply-To: <200601290502.k0T52540034557@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601290502.k0T52540034557@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <188BFA3A-46C6-43A7-A07A-3935E5575DA8@comcast.net> On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:09:49 -0600, Jay West" wrote: > Happened to come across this gorgeous triple bay HP rack. It's the > perfect > (accurate) type for an HP2000/TSB system. Correct PMU/PDU's, etc. > > http://www.alltronics.com/relay_racks.htm > > Scroll down about 9/10ths of the way... under heading "triple rack > cabinets" > > http://www.alltronics.com/images/RackZZ.jpg is a bigger picture. > > If someone wants a really nice setup for HP gear, this is the right > one :) > > Jay West > > > If anyone is interested in racks of this type, let me know and I will put a word in with the local scrapper. I have seen quite a few come through in the last year that were used for test purposes (racks of HP test equipment - mostly removed). Most of these go to the recycler, but so as long as he makes something above scrap he's happy. Equipment is in Tucson, AZ... CRC From leeeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jan 29 01:28:49 2006 From: leeeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 07:28:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: EPLD vs. FPGA Message-ID: <20060129072849.17256.qmail@web27013.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > Are these things worth tinkering with, or are they hopelessly > outdated technology and best consigned to the dustbin? Definitely worth tinkering with, and the price is right. 8^)= The 7192 is equivalent to over 3500 logic gates, you could fit a simple processor in one. Lee. .. ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Jan 29 03:07:16 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 10:07:16 +0100 Subject: RX02 and intel hex file tools Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22F4@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I am not sure if this might help: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/avr-gcc-list/2003-01/msg00250.html - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens C H. Dickman Verzonden: zo 29-01-2006 04:10 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: RX02 and intel hex file tools I am building an eprom adapter for a DEC Unibus M9301 bootstrap terminator so I can use 8bit wide 2732 eproms in place of the 4bit wide fuse proms. The goal is to boot RX02 disks which the M9301 roms don't support Are there any good unix tools for manipulating intel hex files or any binary image files? I have the M9312 boot/diagnostic prom images which are intel hexfile. I modified Eric Smith's program so that I could obtain intel hexfile images of the proms that are not scrambled for the M9312. I need to join them and then create an image file so that my DataIO 201 burner will accept them. The burner can accept intel, motorola and tektronix formats. I have used the intel format, but not the other two with this burner. A quick search found srecord which claims to manipulate various formats, but is written in C++ (which I don't speak) and does not compile in Linux (Fedora Core 3). Basically, I need to take several binary images (now in intel hex), move them to a different address, join them together, and then burn them on an eprom. -chuck This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Jan 29 04:20:45 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:20:45 +0100 Subject: RK611 schematics Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22F5@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Tony wrote: > Hang on, there can't be. Assuming there's not a continuous stream of > reset pulses too, E46 can't be setting and resetting. > > What instrument are you using to check these signals? Do you know it's > got the right thresholds for TTL logic? What are you using as the ground > reference? Yes, I was puzzled too when I saw those signals. I first used the Fluke 77 for a quick check. When I saw 3.7 V on TTL pins, I figured that it is either a bad signal or the signal is not DC, but some pulse. So then I pulled the D100 out. The inputs are all set to TTL, and the 'ground' I used was pin 7 of E46. > I checked the 4-input NAND E5 ... although all 4 inputs (xxx COMBINED > ERROR L)> are continuous "1", I see lots of pulses on the output pin 8 ? > Again, impossible unless eirhter E5 is malfunctioning, or you're not > actually seeing what's at that point. I hate to say this, but I suspect > the instrument and/or its use. And again, I was amazed too. But the output of E5 did not look like a spurious signal. The D100 gets correct through the initialisation at power up ... > > Perhaps I have missed something, but as the 4 inputs are "combined" error > > signals, I decided to remove the flat cable from M7904 to the bulkhead. > > Don't ask me how that idea came up. > I would love to know which of those signals was actually to blame. I've > traced ech of them back onto the other boards, but the logic quickly > becomes complicated, and I don't want to go too deeply into an irrelevant > area... I know what you mean :-) The RK07 and its controller is definately complex. I was also tracing the signals back and things get quite complicated, so that is where I decided to remove the flat cable ... a hunch ? > Sounds like noise pickuop on the cable or something. Looking at RG6 > COMBINED ERROR L, for example, it's a combination of bits read back > from the drive status shift registess on sheet RG6. The input to that lot > comes from the drive cable receicers on sheet DR8, so noise there could > well cause problems. Yep, the flat cable that I used was not shielded, and about 6 meters long ... The BC06R is a "-6" version, so a lot shorter (and shielded). Regarding noise, I suspect that the print set is not 100% up-to-date, but given the quality of the drawings from DEC, I assume that I am wrong. But, pin 2 of the E46 S/R flipflop is not connected (according to the diagram). This is the D input of the flipflop, and since the clock input (pin 3) is connected to Gnd, the state of the D input is irrelevant according the data book. However, with the Fluke 77 I measure 1.55 V on pin 2. I consider not- connected input pins a bad design, but I will not tie pin 2 to Gnd or with a 1k pull-up resistor to +5V, because that pin changes voltage during reset!! BTW, I found the same signal on E5 pin 8 and E43 pin 12, so the drawing checks out on that connection :-) > If you fold out the logic cage in the RK07, you should see a 00 01 10 > pattern on the head select LEDs and a binary count on the cylinder LEDs. Now, why did I (again) not think of that!? Looking at the head movement requires you to "stare" at a screw on the head assembly and try to see the motion to a fixed part next to that screw ... > > it is no hung on the 11/34, the drive is formatting the cartridge! > > Finally I get the RT11 prompt, but also a message that the formatting is > > aborted due to too many bad blocks. > Right. I'd be interested to know if, perhaps, one surface is completely > bad and you have head, head switch, or something like that, problems. Me too :-) As I have to remove the rear cover to swap :-) the terminitor for the plug/cable to the second drive, I will look at those LEDs. > I've not got the diagnostics, but I wonder if one of those programs could > tell you that sort of thing. I only have brief descriptions (which are also on my site), not the complete source listings of the diags. But I will run the diags that require the drive (and a mounted cartridge). > > I must thank Tony. Without his replies I probably would have done > > nothing for a few weeks. Because he put some of his time in helping > > I felt obligated to keep going ... > Thank you for that. I was fairly close to leaving this list due to the > amount of flamage I seem to receive, but I'll stay while I'm still > managing to help people to keep these fine old machines going. Ah well, I think it is just a matter of how you look at things. Without going into that subject, I'd say that swapping is for some of us the only option. Not everybody understands electronics that well as you do Tony. An educated guess when you swap *one* board is still better then tossing the stuff in the bin, because it does not work. It isn't always that black and white. And I must admit that I was tempted in swapping boards too. Now, I know that would not have solved the problem as long as the flat cable was still connected to M7904 !!! I know, this proves that measurements are the only way, but still, that is not easy for many (?) of us. I first had to search for 3 dual extender boards before I could even begin for starters ... Hmmm, now I did get into that subject! Anyway, any feedback is a drive to continue what you are doing. That counted for me, and I figured that my "thank you" also counts for you, and that everybody will appreciate some feedback! That explains the existence of this mail list and the many people that contribute to it. - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Jan 29 04:51:55 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 10:51:55 +0000 Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20060127101019.441734dc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <43DC9E4B.3080607@gjcp.net> Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message <3.0.6.16.20060127101019.441734dc at pop-server.cfl.rr.com> > "Joe R." wrote: > > >> You'd probaly better with battery backed RAM that would lose it power >>(and contents) when it was removed from the circuit. Or else redisign and >>use a PAL or some form or programmable logic that has a security fuse to >>prevent it from being read. > > > Problem is, SRAM has this annoying tendency of storing data for a really long > time if it's frozen beforehand. > It also tends to "remember" data bits that have been stored in the memory > cells without any writes for a long time. That's why the encryption cards banks use for ATMs detect when they get below a certain temperature, and overwrite the RAM. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Jan 29 05:02:54 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:02:54 +0000 Subject: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43DCA0DE.5060106@gjcp.net> Richard wrote: > How many of you have done a road trip to get equipment? > - travelled 50 miles? > - travelled 100 miles? > - travelled 250 miles? I went from Glasgow to Manchester and back in a day to pick up a MicroVAX II, MicroVAX 3300 and a few other bits and pieces. The rack for the MVII is about 36U or so - a little smaller than my PDP11 - and fitted *exactly* across the back seat of my car. The rack was then filled with greywall, and the bits contained in the rack (except the tape drive, that sat on the front passenger seat) went in the boot. I had *just* enough room around me to drive, but getting 1st and 2nd gear was tight because of the amound of stuff on the passenger seat. It took about a minute for the hydraulic suspension (old Citro?n CX) to lift, as opposed to its normal 10 seconds. Gordon. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 29 06:57:42 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 05:57:42 -0700 Subject: HP triple bay rack seen In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 28 Jan 2006 23:56:26 -0700. <188BFA3A-46C6-43A7-A07A-3935E5575DA8@comcast.net> Message-ID: In article <188BFA3A-46C6-43A7-A07A-3935E5575DA8 at comcast.net>, CRC writes: > If anyone is interested in racks of this type, let me know and I will > put a word in with the local scrapper. [...] How do you meet the local scrapper? ;-) In the big purge of equipment from work last week, I picked up a 19" rack that is about 36 or 40 inches high, with casters. This is just enough of a rack to hold my Fujitsu 2444, which makes me happy :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 29 06:47:35 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 05:47:35 -0700 Subject: HP triple bay rack seen In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:09:49 -0600. <001501c62470$b42ea250$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Message-ID: In article <001501c62470$b42ea250$6700a8c0 at PC331890042458>, "Jay West" writes: > http://www.alltronics.com/ [...] Am I the only one whose web browser keeps freezing because of their java shopping cart? My laptop is one of the few machines I own where Java is installed or turned on. The number of amazingly poor java web applets has shaped my overall view of java to be negative. Anything requiring me to kill the browser process can't be good. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Sat Jan 28 11:04:16 2006 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 18:04:16 +0100 Subject: Fixing CoCo3's In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060128092017.01bef988@mail.30below.com> References: <20060128023051.61956.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <20060128023051.61956.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060128092017.01bef988@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <43DBA410.9020603@bluewin.ch> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel may have mentioned these > words: > >> If you meant to say : I want to repair this machine which has a broken >> unobtainable vlsi chip, then forget it . A oneoff copy of a vlsi chip >> in a FPGA is just plain too much work. > > With all due respect, *please* keep that attitude away from the Tandy > Color Computer List! :-O > > There are people doing *exactly that* to try to keep our beloved CoCo3's > running once the GIME chip start giving up the magic smoke in quantity. > By redesigning a functional equivalent, or by deprocessing a failed chip? The first is perfectly OK and feasible, the second one is a major work. Things are simpler for a 20 years old design, but still.... Jos From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 28 19:41:13 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 17:41:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: you never know what you can find if you just ask Message-ID: <20060129014113.72068.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> I wont say exactly for what, but I have in my possession about a dozen brand new crts for a popular old puter. It was a lucky and unusual find. Not for sale at this time. Sorry. Having said that, I would like to acquire some 9-13 inch new color crts for *far distant* future projects. They need to be high-res computer grade capable of displaying 3-475 lines of res (is that even a function of the tube?). Grassyazz --- FreecycleCentralNewJersey at yahoogroups.com wrote: > Pending pick up. > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 29 01:51:20 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 23:51:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: anyone heard of Berkely systems? Message-ID: <20060129075120.84186.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> produced a 68000 based high end graphical unit. The only mention Ive ever heard was this dude in Australia (who has one). Referred to it as a big loverly toaster. Imagine being able to make fractals and cook your English muffins with the same unit. Maybe hes on the list and can discuss it further. I remember him saying he managed to track down a tech who worked for the company (wonder of wonders), but was only able to provide the most basic info, __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From graham.warrington at gmail.com Sun Jan 29 07:56:30 2006 From: graham.warrington at gmail.com (GrahamWarrington) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 08:56:30 -0500 Subject: iUP201 Message-ID: <000601c624db$cee10910$6400a8c0@main> I did a search on an intel iup201a EPROM programmer , and noticed that you may have one , or did in 2003..... Was wondering if you still have it , or if you got rid of it .. I am looking for an EPROM burner that will do 2716's-32's-64's - and 27128's ........ Please advise ... Thank you Graham ( VE1FC) From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 29 09:29:11 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 08:29:11 -0700 Subject: you never know what you can find if you just ask In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 28 Jan 2006 17:41:13 -0800. <20060129014113.72068.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <20060129014113.72068.qmail at web61023.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > I wont say exactly for what, but I have in my > possession about a dozen brand new crts for a popular > old puter. Is this related to the subject? Did you ask for them and get a surprise "Hey, I got a bunch of those in my store room!" response? > [...] I would > like to acquire some 9-13 inch new color crts for *far > distant* future projects. They need to be high-res > computer grade capable of displaying 3-475 lines of > res (is that even a function of the tube?). Presumably you mean 375-475? I can't imagine displaying 3 lines on a CRT ;-). I think for this resolution, even a television tube would suffice. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jan 29 09:43:44 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 09:43:44 -0600 Subject: More Pricing Information Message-ID: <004e01c624ea$cddfc7e0$69406b43@66067007> While at Barnes & Noble the other night I found a DX book titled "Collectibles Price Guide 2006" by Judith Miller ISBN 0-2566-1339-6. In it where prices for several classic systems and in another section prices for early gaming systems with the most way out value being a Virtual Boy for $200+. Check it out at your local book store. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 29 09:50:34 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 08:50:34 -0700 Subject: More Pricing Information In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 29 Jan 2006 09:43:44 -0600. <004e01c624ea$cddfc7e0$69406b43@66067007> Message-ID: In article <004e01c624ea$cddfc7e0$69406b43 at 66067007>, "Keys" writes: > While at Barnes & Noble the other night I found a DX book titled > "Collectibles Price Guide 2006" by Judith Miller ISBN 0-2566-1339-6. In it > where prices for several classic systems and in another section prices for > early gaming systems with the most way out value being a Virtual Boy for > $200+. Check it out at your local book store. Did you find the prices realistic? While I love the historical information in "Collectible Microcomputers", I've never seen systems sell for the low prices listed in that book. Those prices seem to be the ones you would get when the guy has his wife nagging him to get rid of the stuff and he just wants it OUTTA HERE. In other words, they are fire sale depressed prices, not the prices that an actual collector would get from someone who is also a collector or in a maretplace like ebay that has many collectors looking for rare-ish items. That's my feeling, anyway. I compare prices on ebay to what's in CM and CM is always lower, sometimes drastically so. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jan 29 10:20:56 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 10:20:56 -0600 Subject: More Pricing Information References: Message-ID: <005f01c624f0$0617c590$69406b43@66067007> No, none of the prices given were close to real, I only make note of these books because even a year ago (2004) none of these books listed computers and handheld games in them. The hobby (collector value) is becoming more recognized by the established collector book writers. Still there are many who do not list any computer stuff in their books. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 9:50 AM Subject: Re: More Pricing Information > > In article <004e01c624ea$cddfc7e0$69406b43 at 66067007>, > "Keys" writes: > >> While at Barnes & Noble the other night I found a DX book titled >> "Collectibles Price Guide 2006" by Judith Miller ISBN 0-2566-1339-6. In >> it >> where prices for several classic systems and in another section prices >> for >> early gaming systems with the most way out value being a Virtual Boy for >> $200+. Check it out at your local book store. > > Did you find the prices realistic? > > While I love the historical information in "Collectible > Microcomputers", I've never seen systems sell for the low prices > listed in that book. Those prices seem to be the ones you would get > when the guy has his wife nagging him to get rid of the stuff and he > just wants it OUTTA HERE. In other words, they are fire sale > depressed prices, not the prices that an actual collector would get > from someone who is also a collector or in a maretplace like ebay that > has many collectors looking for rare-ish items. That's my feeling, > anyway. I compare prices on ebay to what's in CM and CM is always > lower, sometimes drastically so. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Jan 29 10:37:55 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 08:37:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: <43DC321C.1000604@nktelco.net> References: <43DC321C.1000604@nktelco.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Jan 2006, C H. Dickman wrote: objcopy? > I am building an eprom adapter for a DEC Unibus M9301 bootstrap terminator so > I can use 8bit wide 2732 eproms in place of the 4bit wide fuse proms. The > goal is to boot RX02 disks which the M9301 roms don't support > > Are there any good unix tools for manipulating intel hex files or any binary > image files? > > I have the M9312 boot/diagnostic prom images which are intel hexfile. I > modified Eric Smith's program so that I could obtain intel hexfile images of > the proms that are not scrambled for the M9312. > > I need to join them and then create an image file so that my DataIO 201 > burner will accept them. The burner can accept intel, motorola and tektronix > formats. I have used the intel format, but not the other two with this > burner. > > A quick search found srecord which claims to manipulate various formats, but > is written in C++ (which I don't speak) and does not compile in Linux (Fedora > Core 3). > > Basically, I need to take several binary images (now in intel hex), move them > to a different address, join them together, and then burn them on an eprom. > > -chuck > > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From dmabry at mich.com Sun Jan 29 10:51:58 2006 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:51:58 -0500 Subject: iUP201 In-Reply-To: <000601c624db$cee10910$6400a8c0@main> References: <000601c624db$cee10910$6400a8c0@main> Message-ID: <43DCF2AE.2080502@mich.com> Hello Graham, Your message was sent to a list server, so it went to many people. That's ok, because there are a lot of people here who are interested in the "classic" computer equipment. You cast a "wide net" with it. I have an interest in the Intel development systems and accessories. I have an iUP201 with several personality plug in modules. Anyway, I'm not exactly sure from your message if you are looking for an entire 201 or just the module. And in either case, do you have an Intel MDS to connect it to? Let's talk. Dave GrahamWarrington wrote: >I did a search on an intel iup201a EPROM programmer , and noticed that you may have one , or did in 2003..... > >Was wondering if you still have it , or if you got rid of it .. I am looking for an EPROM burner that will do 2716's-32's-64's - and 27128's ........ > >Please advise ... > >Thank you >Graham ( VE1FC) > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 29 11:52:20 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 09:52:20 -0800 Subject: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: <43DC321C.1000604@nktelco.net> References: <43DC321C.1000604@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <200601290952200772.3E002A3D@10.0.0.252> On 1/28/2006 at 10:10 PM C H. Dickman wrote: >Are there any good unix tools for manipulating intel hex files or any >binary image files? Dunno about *nix tools, but hex files are very simple and easy to manipulate. Heck, even DOS DEBUG understands them (will read but not write them). Shouldn't take you more than an hour, tops to write something to do what you need. Cheers, Chuck From eds_2 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 29 11:54:42 2006 From: eds_2 at yahoo.com (Eric Scharff) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 09:54:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: UCSD Pascal and s100 manuals In-Reply-To: <43DB9B97.6E8AEF38@buckeye-express.com> Message-ID: <20060129175442.97855.qmail@web32511.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Indeed, it looks like the transition from .net to .com is incomplete. The files that exist on s100-manuals.net do not exist, the ones on s100-manuals.com do. Most importantly, the directory s100-manuals.com/Download does not seem to exist. Randy, are you out there? -Eric --- "Paul R. Santa-Maria" wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: > > 404. > > The pages on s100-manuals.com actually link to > > s100-manuals.net for the UCSD Pascal stuff... > > My mistake. I downloaded my copy last June. > > Another good source for P-system stuff is > http://www.threedee.com/jcm/psystem/ > > -- > Paul R. Santa-Maria > Monroe, Michigan USA > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jcwren at jcwren.com Sun Jan 29 12:13:24 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:13:24 -0500 Subject: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: <200601290952200772.3E002A3D@10.0.0.252> References: <43DC321C.1000604@nktelco.net> <200601290952200772.3E002A3D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43DD05C4.2040009@jcwren.com> hexedit is nice *nix utility for editing binary files. When it comes to Intel, S9, and Tektronix files, it seems *every time* I end re-writing my own. Seems like there's always something very specific I need to do, and it's quicker to write something in C than remember how to do it in Perl, sed/awk, or whatever. --jc Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/28/2006 at 10:10 PM C H. Dickman wrote: > > >> Are there any good unix tools for manipulating intel hex files or any >> binary image files? >> > > Dunno about *nix tools, but hex files are very simple and easy to > manipulate. Heck, even DOS DEBUG understands them (will read but not write > them). Shouldn't take you more than an hour, tops to write something to do > what you need. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 29 12:34:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 10:34:46 -0800 Subject: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: <43DD05C4.2040009@jcwren.com> References: <43DC321C.1000604@nktelco.net> <200601290952200772.3E002A3D@10.0.0.252> <43DD05C4.2040009@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <200601291034460973.3E270457@10.0.0.252> On 1/29/2006 at 1:13 PM J.C. Wren wrote: >hexedit is nice *nix utility for editing binary files. When it >comes to Intel, S9, and Tektronix files, it seems *every time* I end >re-writing my own. Seems like there's always something very specific I >need to do, and it's quicker to write something in C than remember how It's my suspicion that there's very little out there that will interleave two 4-bit-wide images to make a nice 8-bit one. However, there still may be something out there to make two 8 bit images out of a 16-bit one, as that was a very common task when writing old 286 BIOS ROMs. (Yeah, I ended up writing my own anyway). Cheers, Chuck From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Jan 29 13:11:08 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 19:11:08 GMT Subject: UCSD Pascal and s100 manuals In-Reply-To: <20060129175442.97855.qmail@web32511.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060129175442.97855.qmail@web32511.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In message <20060129175442.97855.qmail at web32511.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Eric Scharff wrote: > Randy, are you out there? Well, randy {at} s100-manuals {dot} com is bouncing: > : host mail.randy482.com[65.81.102.198] said: 550 5.7.1 > ... Relaying denied (in reply to RCPT TO command) "randy482.com" does resolve, and comes up as being owned by a Randall McLaughlin in Florence, Mississippi, email randy482 {at} hotmail {dot} com. I suspect randy {at} randy482 {dot} com may well be valid too... 'Scuse the address-mangling, I'm not sure to what extent the Classiccmp archiver (Pipermail?) munges email addresses... -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... The current death rate? One per person, of course. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 29 13:56:13 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 12:56:13 -0700 Subject: Data Systems Design A2130 Message-ID: What is it? I'm guessing its some kind of disk controller. Does anyone have specifics? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From technobug at comcast.net Sun Jan 29 14:08:15 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:08:15 -0700 Subject: HP triple bay rack seen In-Reply-To: <200601291800.k0TI049A041807@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601291800.k0TI049A041807@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Sun, 29 Jan 2006 05:57:42 -0700, Richard > wrote: >> If anyone is interested in racks of this type, let me know and I will >> put a word in with the local scrapper. [...] > > How do you meet the local scrapper? ;-) > [...] Generally by being servilely respectful and groveling ;-P CRC From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jan 29 14:20:46 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:20:46 -0600 Subject: HP triple bay rack seen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43DD239E.7040309@mdrconsult.com> Richard wrote: > In article <188BFA3A-46C6-43A7-A07A-3935E5575DA8 at comcast.net>, > CRC writes: > > >>If anyone is interested in racks of this type, let me know and I will >>put a word in with the local scrapper. [...] > > > How do you meet the local scrapper? ;-) Generally, with a wad of $20 bills in hand. :-) Seriously, I've found that if I show up in steel-toe boots, explain what I want, know what I'm looking for, and stand my ground on value, I end up with a good working relationship with them. Down the road is when I expect to go exploring for "whatever". The scrappers I know won't respect you at all and won't like you if you don't haggle with them. Thye'll try to rip you off and then write you off if you fall for it. Doc From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Sun Jan 29 14:56:55 2006 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 12:56:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: More Pricing Information In-Reply-To: <005f01c624f0$0617c590$69406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <20060129205655.95668.qmail@web51615.mail.yahoo.com> --- Keys wrote: Still there are many > who do not list any computer stuff in their books. > An Apple one on Antiques Roadshow would change that pretty quickly, I would guess __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 29 15:12:06 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:12:06 -0800 Subject: CP/M driver questions In-Reply-To: <200601282126390634.3B557947@10.0.0.252> References: <1138510680.32376.307.camel@aragorn> <200601282126390634.3B557947@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601291312060175.3EB70BE9@10.0.0.252> On 1/28/2006 at 9:26 PM Chuck Guzis wrote: >>Can drivers for CP/M machines be loaded at run-time? Also, have a look at the way XSUB.COM operates--for all intents and purposes, it's a CP/M TSR that hooks the BDOS request entry. Cheers, Chuck From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Sun Jan 29 15:12:55 2006 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:12:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: More Pricing Information In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060129211255.10748.qmail@web51613.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > Did you find the prices realistic? > > While I love the historical information in > "Collectible > Microcomputers", I've never seen systems sell for > the low prices > listed in that book. Yes my experince too, I don't know why, the prices for collectible computer systems generally haven't changed too much for years, Altairs, IMSAIs,Sols, Apple II's go for the same amount they did 5 years ago, for instance a ebay pricing guide would be useful, and it needs to just be called just that, the price it sells on ebay, whether people think it is too high or too low or doesn't represent the true value shouldn't come in to the equation. Although, someone would have to take into account the condition and accesories sold with the computer. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 29 15:28:06 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:28:06 -0700 Subject: More Pricing Information In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:12:55 -0800. <20060129211255.10748.qmail@web51613.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <20060129211255.10748.qmail at web51613.mail.yahoo.com>, steve writes: > a ebay pricing guide would be useful, and it needs to > just be called just that, the price it sells on ebay, > whether people think it is too high or too low or > doesn't represent the true value shouldn't come in to > the equation. Although, someone would have to take > into account the condition and accesories sold with > the computer. If it sold for $X on ebay, then it was worth $X to someone. That's all a price is -- what people are willing to pay. If people aren't willing to pay $X then it won't sell for $X on ebay. Sometimes the 'auction fever' aspect of ebay comes into play, but the same would be true if there were enough collectors nationwide that you would have competition for items in local markets. The net has a way of aggregating local small markets into a single worldwide market. That has a tendency to eliminate the local inefficiencies in markets and that tends to make finding the "good deals" harder. Today I was wondering if you couldn't build up a historical price database for ebay (they purge their price data after a month or so, it seems) by making searches for particular items that email you, but only for *closed* items. Thus you get the information about the items that closed emailed to you in a consistent format. With enough accumulated data you should be able to start forming a price guide for items. The rarer the item the longer you'd have to gather data before being able to come up with enough examples to form a price guide. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 29 15:33:06 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:33:06 -0700 Subject: HP triple bay rack seen In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:20:46 -0600. <43DD239E.7040309@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: In article <43DD239E.7040309 at mdrconsult.com>, Doc Shipley writes: > > How do you meet the local scrapper? ;-) > > Generally, with a wad of $20 bills in hand. :-) I meant more generally how do you bump into them and establish enough of a relationship that they'll give you a 'heads up' when they encounter something you'd be interested in, like 19" racks, mainframe or minicomputer iron, etc. > Seriously, I've found that if I show up in steel-toe boots, explain > what I want, know what I'm looking for, and stand my ground on value, I > end up with a good working relationship with them. Down the road is > when I expect to go exploring for "whatever". > > The scrappers I know won't respect you at all and won't like you if > you don't haggle with them. Thye'll try to rip you off and then write > you off if you fall for it. Well, I might show up in shitty sneakers, T-shirt and jeans ;-), but yeah, its like dealing with fleamarket people or auction people, you don't want to be labelled as a sucker or you'll never get a fair shake. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From sastevens at earthlink.net Sun Jan 29 10:28:56 2006 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:28:56 -0500 Subject: you never know what you can find if you just ask In-Reply-To: References: <20060129014113.72068.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060129112856.70c63d24.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 08:29:11 -0700 Richard wrote: > > In article <20060129014113.72068.qmail at web61023.mail.yahoo.com>, > Chris M writes: > > [...] I would > > like to acquire some 9-13 inch new color crts for *far > > distant* future projects. They need to be high-res > > computer grade capable of displaying 3-475 lines of > > res (is that even a function of the tube?). > > Presumably you mean 375-475? I can't imagine displaying 3 lines on a > CRT ;-). > The real leap in technology is getting beyond one line to anything more than that. Anybody who has spent time fixing old TV sets can tell you that. From sastevens at earthlink.net Sun Jan 29 10:32:21 2006 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:32:21 -0500 Subject: iUP201 In-Reply-To: <000601c624db$cee10910$6400a8c0@main> References: <000601c624db$cee10910$6400a8c0@main> Message-ID: <20060129113221.0f1a2355.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 08:56:30 -0500 "GrahamWarrington" wrote: > I did a search on an intel iup201a EPROM programmer , and noticed that you may have one , or did in 2003..... > > Was wondering if you still have it , or if you got rid of it .. I am looking for an EPROM burner that will do 2716's-32's-64's - and 27128's ........ > > Please advise ... > Almost any common EPROM burner will program 2716-128 parts. The 'hard barrier' is at the 2708, which is significantly different. The cheapest, most common programmers from the mid-80s onward should fill your need. Nothing special from Intel is needed. Though collecting Intel development hardware as an end unto itself is a worthy pursuit... > Thank you > Graham ( VE1FC) From terry at terryking.us Sun Jan 29 10:43:37 2006 From: terry at terryking.us (Terry King) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 17:43:37 +0100 Subject: OpticRam In-Reply-To: <200601291208.k0TC8nVe038219@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20060129173947.02d605d0@mail.terryking.us> At 06:08 AM 1/29/2006 -0600, you wrote: >Ayone else remember the 'Optic RaM', a poor-man's image sensor. > > >From what I remember they were a normal DRAM chip with a quartz lid to >the package (it's been suggested you could take a cerdip 4116 or 4164, >knock off the top and replkce it with a window). > >The idea was you focussed an image onto the chip. Stored 1's in all >locations, waited a bit and read out the contents. Those cells which had >been exposed to enough light would read out as 0's. Do it again with >different waiting times (note, once you've read out a pattern, you've >lost the charge stored in the cells, you have to start again, you can't >read the chip repeatedly without filling it with 1's), combine the >resulting bit patterns to get a sort-of grey scale image. I designed some instant-display chip-fail display systems years ago. We were probing full wafers of chips. First thing I saw, first image that worked, was a image of the probes reaching in from all sides, to the chip. We forgot to turn off the microscope illuminator, which was BRIGHT! Guys got into scratching their initials on a chip, and saving the bitmap... Regards, Terry King ...On The Mediterranean in Carthage, Tunisia terry at terryking.us From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 29 11:31:32 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 09:31:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: wanted- IBM convertible (parts machine), other stuph Message-ID: <20060129173132.47392.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> I have a brand new lcd and kb, may as well put them to good use. Also looking for an *OT* Thinkpad 770 or equivalent (one that uses the 10.4 inch lcd). Any Zenith Minisport parts (or working) machines, and need a charger, or details about it. --- TRS-80 at yahoogroups.com wrote: > Here are my test results: > http://vintagecomputer.net/tandy/trs80_1/aerocomp_DDC/double_density_controlle > r_info.html > > > > > Using an emulator? Please join! > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TRS-80/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > TRS-80-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jan 29 15:42:25 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 15:42:25 -0600 Subject: HP triple bay rack seen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43DD36C1.7050001@mdrconsult.com> Richard wrote: > I meant more generally how do you bump into them and establish enough > of a relationship that they'll give you a 'heads up' when they > encounter something you'd be interested in, like 19" racks, mainframe > or minicomputer iron, etc. Look them up in the phone book. Show up, don't call, and show up dressed to follow them into the warehouse. Ergo steel-toe boots. Business casual and hippie duds are equally likely to get a "not interested" response. I just tell them "I see you do computer/electronics recycling, and I'm looking for $system. It looks like this. Are you at all interested in retailing individual units?" Some scrappers, including the biggest recycler in my county, absolutely won't do it. The one here wants a state sales-tax form, a business name, and they sell wrapped pallets, period. Doc From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 29 15:48:59 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:48:59 -0700 Subject: Collecting development kits (was: iUP201) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 29 Jan 2006 11:32:21 -0500. <20060129113221.0f1a2355.sastevens@earthlink.net> Message-ID: In article <20060129113221.0f1a2355.sastevens at earthlink.net>, Scott Stevens writes: > The cheapest, most common programmers from the mid-80s onward > should fill your need. Nothing special from Intel is needed. > Though collecting Intel development hardware as an end unto > itself is a worthy pursuit... How many of you collect development kit stuff like evaluation boards, in circuit emulators, cross compilers, etc. I have used ICEs for a 6809 and they were pretty expensive iron for the time (1986) and most companies I know rented them for the duration of a project rather than purchase them. Which makes me wonder... where do the rental companies discard their outdated inventory? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 29 15:50:19 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:50:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: you never know what you can find if you just ask In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060129134635.E24579@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 29 Jan 2006, Richard wrote: > Presumably you mean 375-475? I can't imagine displaying 3 lines on a > CRT ;-). Back when Comdex was still active, there were a lot of technologies used for billboard sized screens. One of the techniques that I saw was a billboard made of thousands of 2" CRTs, using each 2" CRT as a single pixel. Each CRT only displayed 3 "lines", RED, BLUE, and GREEN. From dmabry at mich.com Sun Jan 29 15:54:54 2006 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:54:54 -0500 Subject: Collecting development kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43DD39AE.2020907@mich.com> Richard wrote: >In article <20060129113221.0f1a2355.sastevens at earthlink.net>, > Scott Stevens writes: > > > >>The cheapest, most common programmers from the mid-80s onward >>should fill your need. Nothing special from Intel is needed. >>Though collecting Intel development hardware as an end unto >>itself is a worthy pursuit... >> >> > >How many of you collect development kit stuff like evaluation boards, >in circuit emulators, cross compilers, etc. > > I DO! I have a few Intel MDS Series II systems. All but one work. And I recently actually used one of them with an ICE-80 to troubleshoot a cpu board. >I have used ICEs for a 6809 and they were pretty expensive iron for >the time (1986) and most companies I know rented them for the duration >of a project rather than purchase them. Which makes me wonder... >where do the rental companies discard their outdated inventory? > > The ICE hardware certainly was expensive. And I know that at one time I used to get "for sale" flyers from some of the rental companies with their old development hardware. Prices were affordable by the time they were getting rid of them, but still not "by the pound" prices that some folks here find. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 29 15:56:31 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:56:31 -0700 Subject: HP triple bay rack seen In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 29 Jan 2006 15:42:25 -0600. <43DD36C1.7050001@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: In article <43DD36C1.7050001 at mdrconsult.com>, Doc Shipley writes: > Look them up in the phone book. Show up, don't call, and show up > dressed to follow them into the warehouse. Ergo steel-toe boots. Sheesh. I have to buy a pair of steel-toe boots for these guys? > Business casual and hippie duds are equally likely to get a "not > interested" response. I definately would not show up in my work clothes (i.e. business casual). I'm not sure what you mean by "hippie duds", though. I mean, when I worked in blue collar environments t-shirts/jeans were the norm, or does that qualify as "hippie duds" to you? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jan 29 16:04:51 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:04:51 -0600 Subject: HP triple bay rack seen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43DD3C03.4020605@mdrconsult.com> Richard wrote: > In article <43DD36C1.7050001 at mdrconsult.com>, > Doc Shipley writes: > > >> Look them up in the phone book. Show up, don't call, and show up >>dressed to follow them into the warehouse. Ergo steel-toe boots. > > > Sheesh. I have to buy a pair of steel-toe boots for these guys? Heh. A $15 pair of GI stompers would probably suffice. :) Besides, if you're careful about the fit, the Desert Storm boots are damn good shoes. > I definately would not show up in my work clothes (i.e. business > casual). I'm not sure what you mean by "hippie duds", though. I > mean, when I worked in blue collar environments t-shirts/jeans were > the norm, or does that qualify as "hippie duds" to you? No, I mean "no cut-offs, no holes and no heavy metal T-shirts" - like I'd show up to apply for a construction crew where I didn't know the crew boss. FWIW, my usual "out-in-the-world" dress mode is cutoffs, army boots, and a tie-dye T-shirt. Doc From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jan 29 16:21:36 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:21:36 -0600 Subject: Collecting development kits References: <43DD39AE.2020907@mich.com> Message-ID: <00df01c62522$63100d70$69406b43@66067007> I also have a few boards and some Intel development equipment. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Mabry" To: ; "Discussion at cnc.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 3:54 PM Subject: Re: Collecting development kits > Richard wrote: > >>In article <20060129113221.0f1a2355.sastevens at earthlink.net>, >> Scott Stevens writes: >> >> >>>The cheapest, most common programmers from the mid-80s onward >>>should fill your need. Nothing special from Intel is needed. >>>Though collecting Intel development hardware as an end unto >>>itself is a worthy pursuit... >>> >> >>How many of you collect development kit stuff like evaluation boards, >>in circuit emulators, cross compilers, etc. >> > > I DO! > > I have a few Intel MDS Series II systems. All but one work. And I > recently actually used one of them with an ICE-80 to troubleshoot a cpu > board. > >>I have used ICEs for a 6809 and they were pretty expensive iron for >>the time (1986) and most companies I know rented them for the duration >>of a project rather than purchase them. Which makes me wonder... >>where do the rental companies discard their outdated inventory? >> > The ICE hardware certainly was expensive. And I know that at one time I > used to get "for sale" flyers from some of the rental companies with their > old development hardware. Prices were affordable by the time they were > getting rid of them, but still not "by the pound" prices that some folks > here find. > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 29 15:31:59 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:31:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: <43DC321C.1000604@nktelco.net> from "C H. Dickman" at Jan 28, 6 10:10:20 pm Message-ID: > > I am building an eprom adapter for a DEC Unibus M9301 bootstrap > terminator so I can use 8bit wide 2732 eproms in place of the 4bit wide > fuse proms. The goal is to boot RX02 disks which the M9301 roms don't > support > > Are there any good unix tools for manipulating intel hex files or any > binary image files? I wrote my one hex <-> binary converters. Not good code (they are likely to crash if fed something other than a valid hex file, etc), but they did the job. If you think you can take ideas from them, I can send you the C source code. They should compile on just about any unix system, they read from STDIN, write to STDOUT only. As regards manipulating binary files (e.g. to split a 16 bit file into 2 8 bit files to burn into EPROMs), again it's the sort of thing I write a quick-and-dirty program for. I;m no programmer, but I've found it's quikcer to do this than to try to find aome more general utilitiy to do the job, download it, and then get it to run on my machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 29 15:46:46 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:46:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK611 schematics In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22F5@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Jan 29, 6 11:20:45 am Message-ID: > signal or the signal is not DC, but some pulse. So then I pulled the D100 o= > ut. > The inputs are all set to TTL, and the 'ground' I used was pin 7 of E46. Pardon my ignorance, but what is the D100? I assume some kind of logic analyser. > > > I checked the 4-input NAND E5 ... although all 4 inputs (xxx COMBINED > > ERROR L)> are continuous "1", I see lots of pulses on the output pin 8 ?= > > > > Again, impossible unless eirhter E5 is malfunctioning, or you're not > > actually seeing what's at that point. I hate to say this, but I suspect > > the instrument and/or its use. > = > > And again, I was amazed too. But the output of E5 did not look like a > spurious signal. > The D100 gets correct through the initialisation at power up ... If only for your own peace of mind, I'd want to invenstigate this. Something is not making sense, and by tracking it down, you'll hopefully either have to repair your analyser (which means it'll be useful for actually finding faults later), or you'll discover what you were doing wrong, and thus not make the same mistake again. > I know what you mean :-) The RK07 and its controller is definately complex= There's certainly a lot of circuitry in the RK07/RK611 (probably around 1000 chips total), but the DEC prints are pretty clear and divide the circuitry up into little bits with named signals (and helpful names at that), so it's not that hard to work out what's going on. > The BC06R is a "-6" version, so a lot shorter (and shielded). > Regarding noise, I suspect that the print set is not 100% up-to-date, but > given the quality of the drawings from DEC, I assume that I am wrong. But, > pin 2 of the E46 S/R flipflop is not connected (according to the diagram). I am pretty sure that pin is floating. HP did the same thing on some of their boards too (and I have verified that the D input then goes nowhere). If the clock input is tied low, there's no way the D input can affect anything. > This is the D input of the flipflop, and since the clock input (pin 3) is > connected to Gnd, the state of the D input is irrelevant according the data= > > book. However, with the Fluke 77 I measure 1.55 V on pin 2. I consider not-= Ah.... Do you read Elektor? Sometime last year there was a puzzle based on just this effect. Basically, a TTL input will source current, and the apparannet voltage will depend on the state of other inputs to that gate (which might well be internally connected in the IC). > > connected input pins a bad design, but I will not tie pin 2 to Gnd or with = > a > 1k pull-up resistor to +5V, because that pin changes voltage during reset!!= I will assure you it would be quite in order to tie pin 2 -- an input -- to ground. > > If you fold out the logic cage in the RK07, you should see a 00 01 10 > > pattern on the head select LEDs and a binary count on the cylinder LEDs. > = > > Now, why did I (again) not think of that!? Looking at the head movement Those LEDs are actually quite useful... > Ah well, I think it is just a matter of how you look at things. Without goi= > ng > into that subject, I'd say that swapping is for some of us the only option.= It's not just that. One of the replies I got to my comment that the security on PALs was not very useful (to put it mildly) seemed like a flame to me. > Not > everybody understands electronics that well as you do Tony. An educated I don't claim to be a programmer, but I sure as heck don't debug programs by making random changes and seeing what hapepns. I do try to understand what's going on. And I must admit that my first reaction when I discover I don't know something that would be useful to know is to try to learn or understand it. > guess when you swap *one* board is still better then tossing the stuff in t= > he > bin, because it does not work. It isn't always that black and white. Ture enough. Another alternative, given that we don't depend on these machines for income, etc in most cases would be to put the machine on one side until we have the skills to repair it. I have many devices that I've not repaired yet because, for example, I need to learn how to cut a gear. I actually have the tools to do that (and to make the form cutter), I need to spend a lot of time working with them and practising. For me, that's one of the great things about this hobby, all the extra skills I've had to learn. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 29 16:29:51 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 15:29:51 -0700 Subject: you never know what you can find if you just ask In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 29 Jan 2006 13:50:19 -0800. <20060129134635.E24579@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20060129134635.E24579 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > On Sun, 29 Jan 2006, Richard wrote: > > Presumably you mean 375-475? I can't imagine displaying 3 lines on a > > CRT ;-). > > Back when Comdex was still active, there were a lot of technologies used > for billboard sized screens. One of the techniques that I saw was a > billboard made of thousands of 2" CRTs, using each 2" CRT as a single > pixel. Each CRT only displayed 3 "lines", RED, BLUE, and GREEN. Wow. I'd love to have seen a picture of that puppy! I wonder how much power it drew when turned on :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 29 16:32:39 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:32:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More Pricing Information In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 29, 6 02:28:06 pm Message-ID: > > > In article <20060129211255.10748.qmail at web51613.mail.yahoo.com>, > steve writes: > > > a ebay pricing guide would be useful, and it needs to > > just be called just that, the price it sells on ebay, > > whether people think it is too high or too low or > > doesn't represent the true value shouldn't come in to > > the equation. Although, someone would have to take > > into account the condition and accesories sold with > > the computer. > > If it sold for $X on ebay, then it was worth $X to someone. That's Minor correction. It was worth _at least_ $X to someone. Several times I've got classic computer bits for the opening bid because nobody else wanted them (or perhaps knew what they were), my maximum bid was around 10 times that. And the fact that it sold for $X on e-bay once doesn't mean it will again. If you want a particular object, you might bid $X for it (and get it). But if one shows up again, you might not want a second one, or would at least bid considerably less for it. And if nobody else is interested... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 29 16:35:43 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:35:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Collecting development kits (was: iUP201) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 29, 6 02:48:59 pm Message-ID: > How many of you collect development kit stuff like evaluation boards, > in circuit emulators, cross compilers, etc. \begin{rpf} ME!!!!!!!!!! \end{rpf} I've got a few In-circuit emulators (IIRC the Intel 8080 one, a 3rd party one for the Z80, and a Tekky one for one of the 9900 CPUs), a couple of Intel development machines (MCS8i, MDS800), A Futuredata development system, a couple of Tekky development systems, etc. I might actually _use_ this stuff for the original purpose too... -tony From tpeters at mixcom.com Sun Jan 29 16:52:22 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:52:22 -0600 Subject: Model 28 ASR and model 14 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060129165148.0c68bf80@localhost> From the KB9Q Newsletter, 1/27/2006 edition: FREE TO A GOOD HOME... Teletype equipment... A model 28 ASR with lots of bells and whistles, a model 14, and tape reader, plus various other pieces of teletype related items... Contact John, KB9PBM 262-781-5196 {home} ... 262-470-5196{cell} I doubt he will ship. This would be Waukesha county, Southeastern Wisconsin, most likely. I don't know this fellow personally but I thought someone who is interested in this gear should know about it, because he's already stated he will toss the stuff in the dumpster if no one expresses interest. -T [Philosophy] There is nothing that somebody, somewhere, will not consider immoral. --Jan.Six at uku.fi --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 29 16:55:50 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:55:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: you never know what you can find if you just ask In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060129145033.W24579@shell.lmi.net> > > Back when Comdex was still active, there were a lot of technologies used > > for billboard sized screens. One of the techniques that I saw was a > > billboard made of thousands of 2" CRTs, using each 2" CRT as a single > > pixel. Each CRT only displayed 3 "lines", RED, BLUE, and GREEN. > On Sun, 29 Jan 2006, Richard wrote: > Wow. I'd love to have seen a picture of that puppy! I wonder how > much power it drew when turned on :-) Good question. A lot of the billboard sized screens had trailered generators. I never knew which were due to amount of power consumption, v which were just a lack of convenient outlet. I would have liked to see the multiple CRT one redone with software/firmware to present a portion of the image on each screen. (I want a multi-Giga-pixel display!) There was a nice "portable" screen made of red and green LEDs. Now that blue has come down to a reacheable price, that could be done as a really nice one. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 29 17:09:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:09:43 -0700 Subject: Collecting development kits (was: iUP201) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:35:43 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > I've got a few In-circuit emulators (IIRC the Intel 8080 one, a 3rd party > one for the Z80, and a Tekky one for one of the 9900 CPUs), a couple of > Intel development machines (MCS8i, MDS800), A Futuredata development > system, a couple of Tekky development systems, etc. COOL! I think its great to know that some of these old ICEs end up in the hands of collectors who would use it on vintage equipment from the same era. If you think about an ICE for a microprocessor, it has to be at *least* as fast as the uP that it is emulating in order to keep up with the target system. It also has to have beefier I/O in order to keep a buffer of bus transactions and so-on. I remember the one we used for the 6809 looked like some serious iron with multiple cards in a cage and some serious cooling fans :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 29 17:14:03 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:14:03 -0700 Subject: you never know what you can find if you just ask In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:55:50 -0800. <20060129145033.W24579@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20060129145033.W24579 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > I would have liked to see the multiple CRT one redone with > software/firmware to present a portion of the image on each screen. > (I want a multi-Giga-pixel display!) I wonder how much a 2" CRT costs in bulk.... of course after the glass, you have to have a frame buffer and video driver for each of them. Even if the CRTs are VGA compatible, that's a lot of VGA adapters. You'd probably want to build a custom card cage and reuse discarded ISA/PCI VGA adapters and drive the whole thing with custom circuitry. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From alhartman at yahoo.com Sun Jan 29 18:32:17 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 19:32:17 -0500 Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: <200601240722.k0O7LtVC058541@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601240722.k0O7LtVC058541@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43DD5E91.2080503@yahoo.com> Anyone with LaserJet 4000 and 4050's and similar printers can buy a Maintenance Kit from www.printerworks.com and put it in yourself... It replaces the rubber components and the fuser, so you can give your wonderful workhorse of a Laser printer, a little TLC. I recommend it every 200,000 pages (as does HP). The kits come with FULL instructions and anyone on this list can handle it... There are similar kits for the Laserjet 4, 5 and 6, 2000, etc... Regards, Al Hartman > From: Richard > Agreed. Putting in a new toner cartridge always fixed it. Actually > I'm impressed with how much of a solid workhorse my HP LaserJet 4000N > has been. I'm a big of a print pig and I bought the cheapest > duplexing laser printer I could get almost 10 years ago. I have put > at least 10 boxes (not reams, but boxes of reams :-) of paper through > this thing and probably 5-10 toner cartridges and it has never broken > down. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jan 29 18:40:21 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 00:40:21 GMT Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board" (Jan 28, 12:42) References: Message-ID: <10601300040.ZM29412@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 28 2006, 12:42, Tony Duell wrote: > Ayone else remember the 'Optic RaM', a poor-man's image sensor. > > >From what I remember they were a normal DRAM chip with a quartz lid to > the package Yes, I remember them. Steve Ciarcia wrote a Circuit Cellar article about them. > (it's been suggested you could take a cerdip 4116 or 4164, > knock off the top and replkce it with a window). And indeed you could, though not all DRAMs were addressed in such straightforward linear fashion as the "proper" one. I had (still have, I think) some Fujitsu 4116s you can do it with. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jan 29 18:43:31 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 00:43:31 GMT Subject: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available] In-Reply-To: Richard "Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available]" (Jan 28, 15:31) References: Message-ID: <10601300043.ZM29444@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Jan 28 2006, 15:31, Richard wrote: > How many of you have done a road trip to get equipment? > - travelled 50 miles? Several times. My ASR33 came from about that far away. > - travelled 100 miles? > - travelled 250 miles? also quite a few times. My Exidy Sorcerer, a Cromemco, a Superbrain, and a couple of complete PDP-11s have all been that far in the back of my car. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jan 29 19:55:47 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 20:55:47 -0500 Subject: HP triple bay rack seen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601292055.47363.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 29 January 2006 16:33, Richard wrote: > In article <43DD239E.7040309 at mdrconsult.com>, > > Doc Shipley writes: > > > How do you meet the local scrapper? ;-) > > > > Generally, with a wad of $20 bills in hand. :-) > > I meant more generally how do you bump into them and establish enough > of a relationship that they'll give you a 'heads up' when they > encounter something you'd be interested in, like 19" racks, mainframe > or minicomputer iron, etc. Spend several months going there, until you get to the point you're going 3-5 times a week. It depends on the outfit, but there's a good chance they're not going to care enough to learn what things are, and if they should call you. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jan 29 19:57:45 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 20:57:45 -0500 Subject: you never know what you can find if you just ask In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601292057.45943.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 29 January 2006 17:29, Richard wrote: > In article <20060129134635.E24579 at shell.lmi.net>, > > Fred Cisin writes: > > On Sun, 29 Jan 2006, Richard wrote: > > > Presumably you mean 375-475? I can't imagine displaying 3 lines on a > > > CRT ;-). > > > > Back when Comdex was still active, there were a lot of technologies used > > for billboard sized screens. One of the techniques that I saw was a > > billboard made of thousands of 2" CRTs, using each 2" CRT as a single > > pixel. Each CRT only displayed 3 "lines", RED, BLUE, and GREEN. > > Wow. I'd love to have seen a picture of that puppy! I wonder how > much power it drew when turned on :-) Purdue has one of those at their football stadium - a Sony Jumbotron. Has a buch of small CRT's they call "cells", which are each a color pixel - three lines of color on the display, one red, one green, one blue. It doesn't take a lot of smarts in order to operate one of them. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jan 29 19:59:05 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 19:59:05 -0600 Subject: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43DD72E9.5040201@mdrconsult.com> Richard wrote: > How many of you have done a road trip to get equipment? > - travelled 50 miles? > - travelled 100 miles? > - travelled 250 miles? Often. Dallas is about that far from me. :) > - travelled 500 miles? > - travelled 750 miles? > - travelled 1,000+ miles? Yes, for a Cromemco Z-2D and a Soroc terminal. Austin to Phoenix AZ is about 1100 miles. Doc From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jan 29 20:04:27 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:04:27 -0500 Subject: you never know what you can find if you just ask In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601292104.27414.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 29 January 2006 18:14, Richard wrote: > In article <20060129145033.W24579 at shell.lmi.net>, > > Fred Cisin writes: > > I would have liked to see the multiple CRT one redone with > > software/firmware to present a portion of the image on each screen. > > (I want a multi-Giga-pixel display!) > > I wonder how much a 2" CRT costs in bulk.... of course after the > glass, you have to have a frame buffer and video driver for each of > them. Why? it's not going to take much effort to drive the displays - they don't have a bunch of pixels, just 3 stripes on them (at least the one I've seen). You could probably pack enough electronics in half a dozen transistors, to control the beam in the CRT (excluding the HV source). Usually, the whole thing acts like one monitor - one input signal to the whole device, whether it's NTSC composite video (unlikely) or RGB at some fixed (NTSC maybe) frequency. It wouldn't be a whole lot more complicated than an average TV or multi-sync monitor, other than having a larger power draw, and HV supply. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jan 29 20:40:10 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:40:10 -0500 Subject: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available] References: <43DD72E9.5040201@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <003701c62546$7d66def0$72781941@game> I think I drove 60-70 miles one way to pick up a load of 68k Mac related equipment that was free. The kind of things I collect generally are not worth driving much more then that unless you know for sure a rarity is there waiting for you and the owner won't ship (or you are just in the mood for a road trip and need an excuse). From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 29 20:44:19 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 19:44:19 -0700 Subject: you never know what you can find if you just ask In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:04:27 -0500. <200601292104.27414.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200601292104.27414.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > On Sunday 29 January 2006 18:14, Richard wrote: > > In article <20060129145033.W24579 at shell.lmi.net>, > > I wonder how much a 2" CRT costs in bulk.... of course after the > > glass, you have to have a frame buffer and video driver for each of > > them. > > Why? it's not going to take much effort to drive the displays - they don't > have a bunch of pixels, just 3 stripes on them (at least the one I've seen). You mean the phosphors are just three stripes of the primaries as opposed to pixel grids? I was thinking they were like 2" TV tubes or something. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 29 20:52:00 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 19:52:00 -0700 Subject: HP triple bay rack seen In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 29 Jan 2006 20:55:47 -0500. <200601292055.47363.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200601292055.47363.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > On Sunday 29 January 2006 16:33, Richard wrote: > > In article <43DD239E.7040309 at mdrconsult.com>, > > > > Doc Shipley writes: > > > > How do you meet the local scrapper? ;-) > > > > > > Generally, with a wad of $20 bills in hand. :-) > > > > I meant more generally how do you bump into them and establish enough > > of a relationship that they'll give you a 'heads up' when they > > encounter something you'd be interested in, like 19" racks, mainframe > > or minicomputer iron, etc. > > Spend several months going there, until you get to the point you're going 3-5 > times a week. You mean going there to look over what they have? Assuming, of course, that they're willing to retail something to you. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 29 20:52:48 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 19:52:48 -0700 Subject: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available] In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:40:10 -0500. <003701c62546$7d66def0$72781941@game> Message-ID: In article <003701c62546$7d66def0$72781941 at game>, "Teo Zenios" writes: > [...] (or you are just in the mood for a > road trip and need an excuse). That's how I'm feeling lately. I've been housebound for far too long! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jan 29 21:01:20 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:01:20 -0600 Subject: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available] In-Reply-To: <003701c62546$7d66def0$72781941@game> References: <43DD72E9.5040201@mdrconsult.com> <003701c62546$7d66def0$72781941@game> Message-ID: <43DD8180.9050402@mdrconsult.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > I think I drove 60-70 miles one way to pick up a load of 68k Mac related > equipment that was free. The kind of things I collect generally are not > worth driving much more then that unless you know for sure a rarity is there > waiting for you and the owner won't ship (or you are just in the mood for a > road trip and need an excuse). Or you're not about to entrust your treasure to DHL/FedEX/UPS/WBIFY. I could easily have had the Cromemco and terminal crated and shipped to Texas. The guy in Phoenix would have done an excellent crating job, too. But then.... Doc From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jan 29 20:58:51 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:58:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601300303.WAA21446@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [PNG] [c]ertainly [has] lots more features [than GIF], which in >> actually a reason to avoid it, at least to me. [...] > Man, and I thought _I_ was a curmudgeon! :-) What's curmudgeonly about that? Every feature that's present but you don't need is a feature you can be bitten by. I didn't see anything in the original request that called for anything PNG can do but GIF can't, tipping the scales toward the less featureful of the two. It's philosophically similar to Occam's Razor, and is the non-security version of "you can't be cracked through a hole in a daemon you don't run". /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From vrs at msn.com Sun Jan 29 21:04:54 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 19:04:54 -0800 Subject: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available] References: Message-ID: > How many of you have done a road trip to get equipment? > - travelled 1,000+ miles? Well, I once traveled by van from Beaverton, OR to Gloucester, MA to get a PDP-8/L, BA08, and some other stuff. But I planned the pickup to coincide with a family vacation, so I don't know if that counts as a road trip or not. (My wife wanted to go to Boston for the Barbie convention.) As a plus, another collector gave me a PDP-8/I and an MM8I on the way home :-)! Vince (Both collectors were incredibly generous. Thanks, guys!!) From allain at panix.com Sun Jan 29 21:16:11 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:16:11 -0500 Subject: RX02 and intel hex file tools References: <43DC321C.1000604@nktelco.net><200601290952200772.3E002A3D@10.0.0.252><43DD05C4.2040009@jcwren.com> <200601291034460973.3E270457@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <013b01c6254b$85acb120$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > It's my suspicion that there's very little out there that will interleave > two 4-bit-wide images to make a nice 8-bit one. However, there still may > be something out there to make two 8 bit images out of a 16-bit one, as > that was a very common task when writing old 286 BIOS ROMs. (Yeah, I ended > up writing my own anyway). I love hacking with Unix CLI tools. Look over sed,tr,nl,sort,cut,join,head,tail. If you want to learn them (about 15-60 minutes each), you will be able to build scads of data tools in just minutes each time you need a new one. An interleave tool goes something like nl used twice, sort, then cut IIRC. John A. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 29 21:27:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 20:27:40 -0700 Subject: Adding numeric keypad to LA120-AA? Message-ID: My LA120 is the -AA model but I'd like to see it "upgraded" to include the numeric keypad on the right hand side. Does anyone know if this is possible? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 29 21:44:59 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 20:44:59 -0700 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:58:51 -0500. <200601300303.WAA21446@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: In article <200601300303.WAA21446 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, der Mouse writes: > >> [PNG] [c]ertainly [has] lots more features [than GIF], which in > >> actually a reason to avoid it, at least to me. [...] > > Man, and I thought _I_ was a curmudgeon! :-) > > What's curmudgeonly about that? Shunning the new in favor of the old and reliable is generally considered curmudgeonly. 20-somethings look at me odd when I say I don't have a cell phone. (Frankly, I'm just not popular enough to justify it.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jan 29 21:48:49 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:48:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: you never know what you can find if you just ask In-Reply-To: <20060129145033.W24579@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060129145033.W24579@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200601300351.WAA21787@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > There was a nice "portable" screen made of red and green LEDs. Now > that blue has come down to a reacheable price, that could be done as > a really nice one. I'd be satisfied with monocolour - but I want decent resolution. Say, eight by sixteen feet at 100dpi. Of course, then I'd also want to get fancy, and put a cellular automaton engine into the silicon behind each pixel, and hook them up to their neighbours...and clock it all in parallel.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jan 29 21:53:09 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:53:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601300355.WAA21827@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>>> [PNG] [c]ertainly [has] lots more features [than GIF], which in >>>> actually a reason to avoid it, at least to me. [...] >>> Man, and I thought _I_ was a curmudgeon! :-) >> What's curmudgeonly about that? > Shunning the new in favor of the old and reliable is generally > considered curmudgeonly. I thought that was only shunning the new *because it's new*. Hmm, dictionary.com says "cur?mudg?eon [...] An ill-tempered person full of resentment and stubborn notions.". Well, I suppose if you drop the ill temper and resentment, and consider the notion that you should use the old-and-reliable *because* it's reliable "stubborn", you can make that fit. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 29 21:58:35 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 20:58:35 -0700 Subject: you never know what you can find if you just ask In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:48:49 -0500. <200601300351.WAA21787@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: In article <200601300351.WAA21787 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, der Mouse writes: > Of course, then I'd also want to get fancy, and put a cellular > automaton engine into the silicon behind each pixel, and hook them up > to their neighbours...and clock it all in parallel.... Now we're talkin! How about VFD graphics modules? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jan 29 22:25:05 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:25:05 -0600 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: <200601300355.WAA21827@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200601300355.WAA21827@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43DD9521.60801@mdrconsult.com> der Mouse wrote: >>>>>[PNG] [c]ertainly [has] lots more features [than GIF], which in >>>>>actually a reason to avoid it, at least to me. [...] >>>> >>>>Man, and I thought _I_ was a curmudgeon! :-) >>> >>>What's curmudgeonly about that? >> >>Shunning the new in favor of the old and reliable is generally >>considered curmudgeonly. > > > I thought that was only shunning the new *because it's new*. Hmm, > dictionary.com says "cur?mudg?eon [...] An ill-tempered person full of > resentment and stubborn notions.". > > Well, I suppose if you drop the ill temper and resentment, and consider > the notion that you should use the old-and-reliable *because* it's > reliable "stubborn", you can make that fit. :-) Ahh, but Mouse, anyone in The Tech Biz who clings to stubborn notions** is bound to become ill-tempered and filled with resentment very quickly. Doc ** Especially such notions as "It should perform as advertised" or "It should be user-serviceable, or maybe even just serviceable" From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 29 22:46:59 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 20:46:59 -0800 Subject: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: <013b01c6254b$85acb120$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <43DC321C.1000604@nktelco.net> <200601290952200772.3E002A3D@10.0.0.252> <43DD05C4.2040009@jcwren.com> <200601291034460973.3E270457@10.0.0.252> <013b01c6254b$85acb120$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200601292046590218.40577E5C@10.0.0.252> On 1/29/2006 at 10:16 PM John Allain wrote: >I love hacking with Unix CLI tools. >Look over sed,tr,nl,sort,cut,join,head,tail. >If you want to learn them (about 15-60 minutes each), you will be able >to build scads of data tools in just minutes each time you need a new one. I didn't realize that there was a CLI tool that could recompute the hex checksum of each record. (I don't count things like Perl). Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jan 29 22:53:56 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:53:56 -0600 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: <200601300303.WAA21446@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200601300303.WAA21446@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43DD9BE4.5030707@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: > I didn't see anything in > the original request that called for anything PNG can do but GIF can't, Reasons to use PNG over GIF: - Better compression with faster decompression speeds (PNG uses LZ77, GIF uses LZ78) - Color depths *above* 8-bit (ie. 24-bit color) - Alpha channel (256 levels of transparancy) Now that PNG is in all still-maintained graphics programs and web browsers, there is no reason to use GIF at all moving forward. > It's philosophically similar to Occam's Razor, and is the non-security > version of "you can't be cracked through a hole in a daemon you don't > run". You're mis-applying Occam's Razor here. We're talking about file formats, not programs. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 29 23:11:42 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:11:42 -0700 Subject: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 29 Jan 2006 20:46:59 -0800. <200601292046590218.40577E5C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200601292046590218.40577E5C at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I didn't realize that there was a CLI tool that could recompute the hex > checksum of each record. (I don't count things like Perl). You can do almost anything in awk. ;-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jan 29 23:27:58 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 00:27:58 -0500 Subject: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available] References: <43DD72E9.5040201@mdrconsult.com> <003701c62546$7d66def0$72781941@game> <43DD8180.9050402@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <00af01c6255d$ee696a70$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" To: Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 10:01 PM Subject: Re: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available] > Or you're not about to entrust your treasure to DHL/FedEX/UPS/WBIFY. > > I could easily have had the Cromemco and terminal crated and shipped > to Texas. The guy in Phoenix would have done an excellent crating job, > too. But then.... > > > Doc I have had decent luck with shippers, only one broken monitor and I think that was more because of bad packing then bad shipping. Having said that a friend who lives in the country gets just about everything delivered to him broken (I live in the city). If the part is heavy I would be more worried about dropping it myself then UPS/FEDEX/ETC breaking it. From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Jan 29 23:19:36 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 00:19:36 -0500 Subject: Collecting development kits (was: iUP201) Message-ID: <01C62533.35F8DEA0@mse-d03> Speaking of... Anybody interested in a Motorola M68HC705KICS K-Series ICS/Programmer? NIB, AFAIK mike From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 29 23:33:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:33:07 -0800 Subject: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601292133070498.4081C024@10.0.0.252> On 1/29/2006 at 10:11 PM Richard wrote: >You can do almost anything in awk. ;-) True, but then, you can do almost anything in machine language or SNOBOL. ;<) All in all, maybe C is the best tool for the job? Anyone know of a good Unix implementation of IITRAN? Cheers, Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Jan 29 23:20:02 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 00:20:02 -0500 Subject: you never know what you can find if you just ask Message-ID: <01C62533.370D0DC0@mse-d03> Message: 29 Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 14:55:50 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: you never know what you can find if you just ask >There was a nice "portable" screen made of red and green LEDs. >Now that blue has come down to a reacheable price, that could be >done as a really nice one. ------------- Tell me more! I've got a display unit here that's made of alternating columns of red & green LEDs and I've long wondered why they're not all red as they usually are. Do you strobe both columns with the same data but different duty cycles, or what? mike From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jan 29 23:55:15 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 00:55:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: <200601292046590218.40577E5C@10.0.0.252> References: <43DC321C.1000604@nktelco.net> <200601290952200772.3E002A3D@10.0.0.252> <43DD05C4.2040009@jcwren.com> <200601291034460973.3E270457@10.0.0.252> <013b01c6254b$85acb120$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <200601292046590218.40577E5C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200601300602.BAA03301@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I didn't realize that there was a CLI tool that could recompute the > hex checksum of each record. (I don't count things like Perl). Well, if "things like perl" means "anything with enough generality to recompute checksums", that becomes..uninteresting. :) If it means something more like "Turing-complete languages", it's not much more interesting. But if you're willing to accept a bti of awk, it's doable. I'd probably do something like ...the record... | sed -e 's/../& /g' | cvtbase X d | awk '{sum += $1;} END {printf("%02x\n",255-(sum%256));}' mutatis mutandis if the checksum algorithm is more complicated than a simple "all bytes sum to 0x00". Inserting the resulting checksum into the record is left as an exercise for the reader. (cvtbase is my own, but as used here just converts 0-9A-F hex to decimal; I believe you can do that with dc or bc or some such instead. Or you can pick up ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouseware/hacks/cvtbase.c. :) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jan 30 00:03:20 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 06:03:20 +0000 Subject: you never know what you can find if you just ask In-Reply-To: <20060129145033.W24579@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060129145033.W24579@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <43DDAC28.6070708@gjcp.net> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>Back when Comdex was still active, there were a lot of technologies used >>>for billboard sized screens. One of the techniques that I saw was a >>>billboard made of thousands of 2" CRTs, using each 2" CRT as a single >>>pixel. Each CRT only displayed 3 "lines", RED, BLUE, and GREEN. >> > On Sun, 29 Jan 2006, Richard wrote: > >>Wow. I'd love to have seen a picture of that puppy! I wonder how >>much power it drew when turned on :-) > > > Good question. > A lot of the billboard sized screens had trailered generators. I never > knew which were due to amount of power consumption, v which were just a > lack of convenient outlet. There was one on eBay recently over here. I can't remember exactly what the spec was but I think it was 60kVA three-phase power. This one used clusters of LEDs and was mounted on an artic trailer. Obviously the power included motors for the hydraulic pumps, but I suspect they'd be a couple of kW at most and only used during setup. Didn't follow the auction to the end but apparently if it made its reserve they'd throw in a rough-but-running artic tractor to tow it with. Gordon. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 00:11:56 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 23:11:56 -0700 Subject: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:33:07 -0800. <200601292133070498.4081C024@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200601292133070498.4081C024 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 1/29/2006 at 10:11 PM Richard wrote: > > >You can do almost anything in awk. ;-) > > True, but then, you can do almost anything in machine language or SNOBOL. > ;<) All in all, maybe C is the best tool for the job? Anyone know of a > good Unix implementation of IITRAN? Once I learned sed/awk/grep/sh I stopped writing C code for manipulating text files. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jan 30 00:11:22 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 01:11:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: <43DD9BE4.5030707@oldskool.org> References: <200601300303.WAA21446@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43DD9BE4.5030707@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200601300623.BAA03447@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I didn't see anything in the original request that called for >> anything PNG can do but GIF can't, > Reasons to use PNG over GIF: > - Better compression with faster decompression speeds (PNG uses LZ77, > GIF uses LZ78) You need to go reread the spec. GIF uses LZW, Lempel-Ziv-Welch, a significant extension to LZ. > - Color depths *above* 8-bit (ie. 24-bit color) > - Alpha channel (256 levels of transparancy) Neither of these appeared to matter from what I could see. If either is necessary, PNG may indeed be called for. > Now that PNG is in all still-maintained graphics programs and web > browsers, there is no reason to use GIF at all moving forward. Really? Who did that survey of graphics programs, where did you find it, and how did they miss mine? Or are you defining "still-maintained" to be a subset of "has acquired PNG support by now" (thereby making it mean something drastically different from what it appears to mean based on the words making it up)? >> It's philosophically similar to Occam's Razor, [...] > You're mis-applying Occam's Razor here. We're talking about file > formats, not programs. It is not a direct application of Occam's Razor, no. But it is similar, in that it is a suggestion to use the less complicated over the more complicated when either will do. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From Useddec at aol.com Mon Jan 30 00:39:35 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 01:39:35 EST Subject: Adding numeric keypad to LA120-AA? Message-ID: <2e6.7e1f9c.310f0ea7@aol.com> No problem. There are two ways to do this. Replace the kybd with the one piece kybd which has the numeric keypad attached. Or, pop out the plastic filler panel, And install the numeric keypad, which has a small cable that goes to the main kybd. Either way, you must remove the white cover, flip over the keyboard assy, and unscrew the kybd. The entire procedure should take less than 15 minutes. I have both in the keyboard and the keypad in stock. Thanks, Paul From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 30 00:50:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:50:57 -0800 Subject: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601292250570253.40C9015F@10.0.0.252> On 1/29/2006 at 11:11 PM Richard wrote: >Once I learned sed/awk/grep/sh I stopped writing C code for >manipulating text files. well, would I write a bunch of M4, lex, awk and sed to to merge the nibbles on two hex files? No--it's very straighforward and a no-brainer in C and will pretty much run on anything, even a little Z80 CP/M system.. Would I use C for a text application that involved extensive pattern matching? Probably not. The aforementioned tools (or other ones) are more appropriate. I suppose I could figure out a way to drive screws using a jackhammer, but a screwdriver is the right tool for the job. Cheers, Chuck From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Jan 30 01:10:12 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:10:12 +0100 Subject: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available] Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2657@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Edward and I drove from The Netherlands, through Belgium and France to Italy (round trip some 2200 km) for two 11/70's and 3 RM03's and a bit of small stuff ... And every year we make a trip to the UK, and stay at Pete's in York. That also counts for some 1100 km round trip. - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Doc Shipley > Sent: maandag 30 januari 2006 2:59 > To: General at mdrconsult.com; On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment > available] > > Richard wrote: > > How many of you have done a road trip to get equipment? > > - travelled 50 miles? > > - travelled 100 miles? > > - travelled 250 miles? This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jan 30 01:19:24 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:19:24 -0000 (GMT) Subject: RK611 schematics In-Reply-To: References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22F5@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Jan 29, 6 11:20:45 am Message-ID: <17747.195.212.29.83.1138605564.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> >> Not >> everybody understands electronics that well as you do Tony. An educated > > I don't claim to be a programmer, but I sure as heck don't debug programs > by making random changes and seeing what hapepns. I do try to understand > what's going on. Really? Because recently I've been working on a couple of things where that was the only way I could make any progress, initially. Force a few variables to different values, and see what falls off. > And I must admit that my first reaction when I discover I don't know > something that would be useful to know is to try to learn or understand > it. Often easier said than done. Especially when a lot of people think it's clever to use compiler side-effects to get things done. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jan 30 01:28:08 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:28:08 -0000 (GMT) Subject: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Sun, 29 Jan 2006 21:33:07 -0800. <200601292133070498.4081C024@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <57474.195.212.29.83.1138606088.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > Once I learned sed/awk/grep/sh I stopped writing C code for > manipulating text files. I just wrote something that kind of goes the other way - splits a binary file into nybbles, with a checksum. In this case, though, it's converting a sample into a sysex dump, so I used libsndfile which takes care of endianness and bit depth - I only want 8-bit unsigned anyway, so I can load the sample as an array of floats, apply crunching if necessary, and spit it back out as an unsigned char with all the zeros stomped to 1 to get round a hardware weirdness. Then all I need to do is tack a sysex header on the start and end, and fire it out as pairs of nybbles with a 7-bit checksum at the end. Bonus prize of a brand new LA36 ribbon if you can tell me, based on the above description, what the program is used with. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jan 30 01:35:43 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:35:43 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Solved: Jittery LA36 In-Reply-To: <43D68C83.7060908@gjcp.net> References: <43D68C83.7060908@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <34288.195.212.29.83.1138606543.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > Hi there, > I've finally got the ribbons for my LA36, unjammed the pins in the > printhead and it is printing. It's not quite right yet, though... As a couple of you pointed out, adjusting the tacho on the end of the carriage drive motor did the trick. It would have been easier if my sillyscope hadn't expired just as I was about to start, but I got there in the end. What I did in the end was determine where the "worst" points were by listening to the bump as it skipped up and down (the original fault) and set the pickup position around the middle. Then it took a tiny tweak of one of the sensor bias pots to take a little tick about half-way up out of it. Now it's lovely and smooth. Now, next question. Anyone got a service manual for a Scopex 4D25? Gordon. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Jan 30 01:45:13 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:45:13 +0100 Subject: Solved: Jittery LA36 Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2659@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Congrats on getting a nice LA36 operational. I did a quick check on http://bama.sbc.edu/index.html but Scopex is not even listed! I give the url, because perhaps Scopex is also sold under another name? Never heard of Scopex, but very likely there are quite a few other brands that I never heard of ... - Henk. > Now, next question. Anyone got a service manual for a Scopex 4D25? > > Gordon. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 01:55:02 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 00:55:02 -0700 Subject: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available] In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:10:12 +0100. <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2657@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: In article <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2657 at OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net>, "Gooijen, Henk" writes: > And every year we make a trip to the UK, and stay at Pete's > in York. That also counts for some 1100 km round trip. Ah, but are you picking up equipment or just pints of beer at the local pub? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 01:54:12 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 00:54:12 -0700 Subject: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:50:57 -0800. <200601292250570253.40C9015F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200601292250570253.40C9015F at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > well, would I write a bunch of M4, lex, awk and sed to to merge the > nibbles on two hex files? Neither would I. I'd probably write a single awk script. > I suppose I could figure out a way to drive screws using a jackhammer, but > a screwdriver is the right tool for the job. These tool analogies don't really work when you're talking about general purpose programming languages like C. C and awk could both drive screws like a screwdriver or pound on concrete like a jackhammer with equal applicability. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 01:48:27 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 00:48:27 -0700 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 2006 01:11:22 -0500. <200601300623.BAA03447@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: In article <200601300623.BAA03447 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, der Mouse writes: > >> I didn't see anything in the original request that called for > >> anything PNG can do but GIF can't, > > > Reasons to use PNG over GIF: > > > - Better compression with faster decompression speeds (PNG uses LZ77, > > GIF uses LZ78) > > You need to go reread the spec. GIF uses LZW, Lempel-Ziv-Welch, a > significant extension to LZ. The compression algorithm alone does not determine the overall compression on the data. PNG rearranges the data for more efficient application of the compression algorithm. GIF just lumps together 8-bit bytes for compression, avoiding any spatial coherence that could be exploited in the images. In other words, GIF treats the image data as unstructured data, but PNG exploits the spatial coherence of image data to achieve better overall compression. > > - Color depths *above* 8-bit (ie. 24-bit color) > > - Alpha channel (256 levels of transparancy) > > Neither of these appeared to matter from what I could see. If either > is necessary, PNG may indeed be called for. Probably not needed for manual scans, unless there are both color content and continuous tone grayscale or color images in the pages. For black text on white background, either works. However, there is another advantage that PNG has over GIF that Jim didn't mention: PNG is not burdened by any patented IP. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon Jan 30 02:19:20 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 00:19:20 -0800 Subject: way OT: IITRAN was Re: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43DDCC08.9090706@mindspring.com> Richard wrote: > In article <200601292133070498.4081C024 at 10.0.0.252>, > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > >> On 1/29/2006 at 10:11 PM Richard wrote: >> >>> You can do almost anything in awk. ;-) >>> >> True, but then, you can do almost anything in machine language or SNOBOL. >> ;<) All in all, maybe C is the best tool for the job? Anyone know of a >> good Unix implementation of IITRAN? >> > Once I learned sed/awk/grep/sh I stopped writing C code for > manipulating text files. > And once I learned Perl I stopped writing in any other language ... except macro-11 that is ... I first learned to program in high school in IITRAN running RJE paper tapes via an ASR33 to the IIT Univac 1108... Then I *really* learned to program writing machine language programs for their IBM 1620 mod 2... I still have some IITRAN programs around (hard copy). Also some SPANTRAN versions as well (SPANish iiTRAN). From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jan 30 02:16:01 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 03:16:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601300820.DAA04145@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> - Better compression with faster decompression speeds (PNG uses >>> LZ77, GIF uses LZ78) >> You need to go reread the spec. GIF uses LZW, Lempel-Ziv-Welch, a >> significant extension to LZ. > The compression algorithm alone does not determine the overall > compression on the data. No, it doesn't. I was correcting the statement about GIF, not taking issue with the claim of better compression. > GIF just lumps together 8-bit bytes for compression, Not always 8-bit; it depends on the number of unique colours in the input image. The input tokens to which LZW is applied can be as small as two bits per pixel. Do you actually know GIF? I'm beginning to think not. > However, there is another advantage that PNG has over GIF that Jim > didn't mention: PNG is not burdened by any patented IP. Neither is GIF, if the person who thought that all applicable patents have expired was correct. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 02:54:18 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 00:54:18 -0800 Subject: Collecting development kits In-Reply-To: <00df01c62522$63100d70$69406b43@66067007> References: <43DD39AE.2020907@mich.com> <00df01c62522$63100d70$69406b43@66067007> Message-ID: I have several Intel IPDs with emulators and eprom burner plugs. Paxton On 1/29/06, Keys wrote: > I also have a few boards and some Intel development equipment. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 03:25:03 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 02:25:03 -0700 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 2006 03:16:01 -0500. <200601300820.DAA04145@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: In article <200601300820.DAA04145 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, der Mouse writes: > Do you actually know GIF? I'm beginning to think not. Yes, but to be honest I don't spend my time writing low-level compressors and decompressors; I use libraries. I guess the main thing that pisses me off about GIF is the "indian giver" nature of it. First they "give" it to the "community" for everyone to use with a free license and then once everyone's dependent upon it they start suing people for not paying license fees. That leaves enough of a bad taste in my mouth that I don't want anything to do with GIF, regardless of whether or not patents are now expired. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Jan 30 04:26:50 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:26:50 +0100 Subject: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available] Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF265A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Yes, we always pick up stuff .... it must be some really special pub if you are willing to drive round-trip 1100 km for a beer :-) - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: maandag 30 januari 2006 8:55 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment > available] > > > In article > <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2657 at OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo. > oce.net>, > "Gooijen, Henk" writes: > > > And every year we make a trip to the UK, and stay at Pete's > in York. > > That also counts for some 1100 km round trip. > > Ah, but are you picking up equipment or just pints of beer at > the local pub? :-) > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jan 30 05:08:01 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 06:08:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601301120.GAA05097@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I guess the main thing that pisses me off about GIF is the "indian > giver" nature of it. First they "give" it to the "community" for > everyone to use with a free license and then once everyone's > dependent upon it they start suing people for not paying license > fees. Not quite - the two "they"s (the one that gave and the one that took) are different. (Also, it wasn't GIF per se that was taken, but LZW, including other uses of LZW such as compress(1). GIF just happened to be defined to use LZW and nothing else, though it turns out to be easy to write GIF-compatible minimally-compressed files without infringing the LZW patent - easier than writing "real GIF" files with LZW, actually. When I was working for HASC I was one of two people who wrote code that does that - Google for miGIF and Hutchison (amusingly, (at least) one of the pages mis-credits me as "der Maus").) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From djg at pdp8.net Mon Jan 30 06:43:57 2006 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:43:57 -0500 Subject: Data Systems Design A2130 (Richard) Message-ID: <200601301243.k0UChvu06537@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> >What is it? I'm guessing its some kind of disk controller. Does >anyone have specifics? > PDP-11 disk controller for DSD 8" floppy drives. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dsd/ From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 08:21:02 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:21:02 -0500 Subject: Road Trips Re: (no subject) [now RTTY equipment available] In-Reply-To: <43DCA0DE.5060106@gjcp.net> References: <43DCA0DE.5060106@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43DE20CE.2000309@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Richard wrote: > >> How many of you have done a road trip to get equipment? >> - travelled 50 miles? >> - travelled 100 miles? >> - travelled 250 miles? > > > I went from Glasgow to Manchester and back in a day to pick up a > MicroVAX II, MicroVAX 3300 and a few other bits and pieces. The rack > for the MVII is about 36U or so - a little smaller than my PDP11 - and > fitted *exactly* across the back seat of my car. The rack was then > filled with greywall, and the bits contained in the rack (except the > tape drive, that sat on the front passenger seat) went in the boot. > > I had *just* enough room around me to drive, but getting 1st and 2nd > gear was tight because of the amound of stuff on the passenger seat. > > It took about a minute for the hydraulic suspension (old Citro?n CX) to > lift, as opposed to its normal 10 seconds. I once travelled 1200 miles to pick up an S/390. I once carried an entire VAX 6000 (disassembled) plus 10-15 MicroVAXen in a Toyota Camry. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 09:40:44 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:40:44 -0700 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 2006 06:08:01 -0500. <200601301120.GAA05097@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: Yeah, I know all those details, but no matter how you slice it, it left a bad taste in the mouth of the community. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 10:45:47 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 09:45:47 -0700 Subject: Data Systems Design A2130 (Richard) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:43:57 -0500. <200601301243.k0UChvu06537@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: In article <200601301243.k0UChvu06537 at user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com>, djg at pdp8.net writes: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dsd/ Yeah, I looked on bitsavers, but there is nothing with 2130 in the filename. I mean, bitsavers is great, but its not an exhaustive reference. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Jan 30 11:10:54 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:10:54 -0500 Subject: Fixing CoCo3's In-Reply-To: <43DBA410.9020603@bluewin.ch> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060128092017.01bef988@mail.30below.com> <20060128023051.61956.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <20060128023051.61956.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060128092017.01bef988@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060130120234.03a32cd8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jos Dreesen may have mentioned these words: >Roger Merchberger wrote: >>Rumor has it that Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel may have mentioned these words: >> >>>If you meant to say : I want to repair this machine which has a broken >>>unobtainable vlsi chip, then forget it . A oneoff copy of a vlsi chip >>>in a FPGA is just plain too much work. >>With all due respect, *please* keep that attitude away from the Tandy >>Color Computer List! :-O >>There are people doing *exactly that* to try to keep our beloved CoCo3's >>running once the GIME chip start giving up the magic smoke in quantity. >By redesigning a functional equivalent, or by deprocessing a failed chip? Yes. ;-) There's rumors of a TTL prototype board out there, but if not, a chip may well need to be depackaged/deprocessed and probed manually to figure how just how the heck the thing works. To my knowledge, there's no surviving VHDL or somesuch to actually tell us how the durned thing works - it's a little black box. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Jan 30 11:20:31 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:20:31 -0600 Subject: HP triple bay rack seen Message-ID: <46f14f0b92a3495a84f93b72a11d8a11@valleyimplants.com> So, what's a good way to roughly approximate the "value", especially if it's the sort of thing that is in the "cool, but I've never seen one before" category? I assume for scrappers that don't do parts sales it would be a weight thing? What do some of you regulars offer? (My brother in law works for a scrapper/recycler, I thought it was PCs/printers, but one day he was over at dinner talking about pulling out these "huge disk drives and modems" I thought I'd see if I could talk them out of some bits . . .) From kth at srv.net Mon Jan 30 11:48:01 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:48:01 -0700 Subject: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43DE5151.5030601@srv.net> Richard wrote: > You can do almost anything in awk. ;-) > As long as you don't need to add using it. I had to maintain several reports generated by awk, and infrequently it would add a few three digit numbers together, and end up with a 10 digit number. Switching through various versions (awk, gawk, mawk, etc.) and updates all had the same problem. Re-running it on the same input would usually get the right number. Apparently the bug was based on the phase of the moon. Rewriting in perl fixed the problem for good. The programs were essentially a simple 'BEGIN{total = 0) ... {total += $3} ... END{print total}' called from a csh script. (csh doesn't know how to add floating point numbers, so you have to call an external program to do it for you) From kth at srv.net Mon Jan 30 11:51:35 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:51:35 -0700 Subject: Adding numeric keypad to LA120-AA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43DE5227.5040503@srv.net> Richard wrote: >My LA120 is the -AA model but I'd like to see it "upgraded" to include >the numeric keypad on the right hand side. > >Does anyone know if this is possible? > > If you have the proper kit. You used to be able to buy the numeric keyboard as an upgrade kit. Just bolted in, with one cable to attach. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 30 12:05:04 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:05:04 -0800 Subject: way OT: IITRAN was Re: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: <43DDCC08.9090706@mindspring.com> References: <43DDCC08.9090706@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <200601301005040537.43322E99@10.0.0.252> On 1/30/2006 at 12:19 AM Don North wrote: >And once I learned Perl I stopped writing in any other language ... >except macro-11 that is . Not to seem too flip, but the next time I need a Windows device driver, I should wirte it in Perl? . >I first learned to program in high school in IITRAN running RJE paper >tapes via an ASR33 to the IIT Univac 1108... I blame IITRAN for getting me interested in computer programming. I was an undergrad in physics at IIT getting very bored, when I looked over the shoulder of a classmate during a lecture and later asked him what I was doing. I borrowed the text and finished it in an evening--that Monday I caged a job card and wrote my own program to run on the (bright and shiny new) 360/40. I enrolled in an introductory FORTRAN course and used it to teach myself 360 Assembler and work my way through a supervisor dump. I got to be persona non grata in the very small IIT computer center, but hey, it was the 60's. There was really no program of computer study then, so transfered to Purdue (at the expense my scholarship). My parents were furious--my father told me that working with computers was a low-grade clerical job that no one in his right mind would give up a career in Physics for. Oddly, I realize that if I had a child making the same career decision today, I'd have the same problem as my father. My experience with Unix goes back to about 1980, when, I suspect I was part of a group that did the first port of the Xenix kernel to the 286 (Later, when my colleagues and I were working up FORTRAN compiler for the ETA-10, we used a VAX 11/750 running 4.2BSD as a development platform. It seemed to be the right tool for the job, absent access to larger hardware. I wrote plenty of (insert the name of a monosyllabic Unix utility). I still do, occasionally, if what I want to do is suited to it. But when I look over the detritus of code that I've written over the years, it's usually the FORTRAN or C code that gets reused after more than a decade has passed by. Most of my systems have a Linux boot partition on them--but Windows is what gets booted by default. Recently, I was going through old media and found an 8" CP/M diskette with a ISIS-II--CP/M disk conversion utility on it. Written in FORTRAN, with a very few assembly subroutines (to do basic disk I/O). Probably written in the days of Jimmy Carter, it still is quite readable, even thought I've forgotten most everthing I've ever known about ISIS-II disk structure. OTOH, I don't have any later awk, sed, lex... code that's even 20 years old--quite a few makefiles, though and lots of C code. But I could never make the claim "I stopped writing in any other language". If GPSS or Prolog was uniquely suited to a problem that I had, I'd blow the dust off my reference manual and get coding. Sorry for the length. Cheers, Chuck From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Jan 30 12:15:45 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:15:45 -0500 Subject: way OT: IITRAN was Re: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: <200601301005040537.43322E99@10.0.0.252> References: <43DDCC08.9090706@mindspring.com> <43DDCC08.9090706@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060130131200.03b29758@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >On 1/30/2006 at 12:19 AM Don North wrote: > > >And once I learned Perl I stopped writing in any other language ... > >except macro-11 that is . > >Not to seem too flip, but the next time I need a Windows device driver, I >should wirte it in Perl? No, that's what the macro-11 is for, silly! ;-) >But I could never make the claim "I stopped writing in any other language". > If GPSS or Prolog was uniquely suited to a problem that I had, I'd blow >the dust off my reference manual and get coding. For offtopic stuff, Python (for me) is where it's at. Ontopically, I was thinking learning Forth was going to be my next big project, but I'm debating that some more and I think my free time will go a different direction; mainly getting back into 6809 assembly. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jan 30 12:28:03 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:28:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: grinding down chips was Re: QX10 graphics board Message-ID: <200601301828.KAA21483@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Gordon JC Pearce" > >Philip Pemberton wrote: >> In message <3.0.6.16.20060127101019.441734dc at pop-server.cfl.rr.com> >> "Joe R." wrote: >> >> >>> You'd probaly better with battery backed RAM that would lose it power >>>(and contents) when it was removed from the circuit. Or else redisign and >>>use a PAL or some form or programmable logic that has a security fuse to >>>prevent it from being read. >> >> >> Problem is, SRAM has this annoying tendency of storing data for a really long >> time if it's frozen beforehand. >> It also tends to "remember" data bits that have been stored in the memory >> cells without any writes for a long time. > >That's why the encryption cards banks use for ATMs detect when they get >below a certain temperature, and overwrite the RAM. > >Gordon Hi Often times the newer SRAM use SOI technology. These tend to power on with the opposite value that they were programmed with. The data looks scrambled but just inverting the values will recover a large percentage. Dwight From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 12:47:04 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:47:04 -0700 Subject: way OT: IITRAN was Re: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:15:45 -0500. <5.1.0.14.2.20060130131200.03b29758@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: In article <5.1.0.14.2.20060130131200.03b29758 at mail.30below.com>, Roger Merchberger writes: > Ontopically, I was thinking learning Forth was going to be my next big > project, but I'm debating that some more and I think my free time will go a > different direction; mainly getting back into 6809 assembly. I've got a FORTH kernel ROM for the 6502 and I'm trying to figure out how to get it into my CBM 8032. I'd like to get it PROMed so that I can slip it in the PROM slot of the CBM so I'll always have FORTH available on the machine. Then I'd like to code up some ASCII animation hacks for it as a wild compo entry for Pilgrimage. Oh well, someday. I do have a 6502 FORTH that I could load as a .prg from disk, so that's a start. FORTH is good for restricted hardware environments and oh hey, if you have a Sun, the boot stuff is a FORTH variant. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 30 12:50:08 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:50:08 -0800 Subject: way OT: IITRAN was Re: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060130131200.03b29758@mail.30below.com> References: <43DDCC08.9090706@mindspring.com> <43DDCC08.9090706@mindspring.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060130131200.03b29758@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200601301050080652.435B73FC@10.0.0.252> On 1/30/2006 at 1:15 PM Roger Merchberger wrote: >Ontopically, I was thinking learning Forth was going to be my next big >project, but I'm debating that some more and I think my free time will go >a different direction; mainly getting back into 6809 assembly. I first saw Forth as STOIC under CP/M. Intriguing idea, but it struck me as a "quick and dirty" easy-to-implement language. I don't think I'd want to implement a General Ledger package in it, but for fool-around small projects, it's probably fine. My impression is that the suitability for a task decreases quickly as the task size increases. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 13:03:22 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:03:22 -0700 Subject: way OT: IITRAN was Re: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 2006 10:50:08 -0800. <200601301050080652.435B73FC@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200601301050080652.435B73FC at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I first saw Forth as STOIC under CP/M. [...] > My impression is that the suitability for a > task decreases quickly as the task size increases. I'd say that's accurate. FORTH was designed for microprocessor control in embedded systems. People have added all kinds of layers on top of the kernel over the years, but its typeless nature gets kind of grungy in larger applications. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Jan 30 13:03:50 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:03:50 +0100 Subject: way OT: IITRAN was Re: RX02 and intel hex file tools Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE22FD@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > Ontopically, I was thinking learning Forth was going to be my next big > project, but I'm debating that some more and I think my free time will go a > different direction; mainly getting back into 6809 assembly. > > Laterz, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger Good choice :-) - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jan 30 13:04:33 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:04:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Collecting development kits Message-ID: <200601301904.LAA22647@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Paxton Hoag" > >I have several Intel IPDs with emulators and eprom burner plugs. >Paxton > >On 1/29/06, Keys wrote: >> I also have a few boards and some Intel development equipment. > Hi I have a SIM4-01 with motherboard and 1702A programmer card. I also have a MDS800 and a series II. I've not had time to play with the 8080 machines but the MDS800 has a Z80 ICE board in it. I have a number of other single board development units like SYM-1's. The most unusual unit I have is a development system for the Intel i2920 ( not a bit slice part ). These were Intel's early attempt to get into the DSP world. They'd have been great about a year earlier but the part was slow and limited in it's operations. I have a number of chips for it as well. These are programmable with a EPROM area for program space. I have an app note that shows how to make an audio spectrum analyser. Dwight From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 13:16:39 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:16:39 -0700 Subject: Collecting development kits In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:04:33 -0800. <200601301904.LAA22647@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: I have a TI TMS320C5x development kit. I intended to do some fractal stuff with it in my "copious" spare time... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Jan 30 13:16:38 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:16:38 -0600 Subject: VAXstation drive sled description Message-ID: <80efb9fb4c67494bb6450907c1652552@valleyimplants.com> I have a VS3100/76 that did not come with any drive sleds. I would like to fabricate a replacement, but I haven't been able to locate any in-depth descriptions or pictures of the sled. Does anyone have a description or picture? I'm not sure if it is screw-on bosses like Sun Aurora chasses use for the CD/Floppy or if it is a solid sled with the bosses included. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 30 13:27:07 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:27:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: you never know what you can find if you just ask In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060130112425.M51230@shell.lmi.net> > > Why? it's not going to take much effort to drive the displays - they don't > > have a bunch of pixels, just 3 stripes on them (at least the one I've seen). On Sun, 29 Jan 2006, Richard wrote: > You mean the phosphors are just three stripes of the primaries as > opposed to pixel grids? I was thinking they were like 2" TV tubes or > something. They were 2" "TV" tubes. He's saying that because they were only being used to dispaly three stripes of color, that the circuitry to drive them could be simplified significantly. But I want to have a megapixel display on each one, in order to make a multi-giga-pixel overall display. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jan 30 14:17:18 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:17:18 Subject: Data Systems Design A2130 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060130141718.443fe022@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I'm pretty sure that it's a DEC interface for one of the DSD 8" floppy disk drive sub-system. I don't remember whick DEC system it's for. I have the manual for the DSD drive system but it's not easy to get to at the moment. I thought there was a copy posted on Bitsavers.org but I can't find it now. IF IT"S FOR A PDP-8, I WANT IT! Joe At 12:56 PM 1/29/06 -0700, you wrote: >What is it? I'm guessing its some kind of disk controller. Does >anyone have specifics? > >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jan 30 14:20:30 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:20:30 Subject: HP triple bay rack seen In-Reply-To: References: <"29 Jan 2006 14:20:46 -0600." <43DD239E.7040309@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060130142030.42af5ed8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:33 PM 1/29/06 -0700, you wrote: > >In article <43DD239E.7040309 at mdrconsult.com>, > Doc Shipley writes: > >> > How do you meet the local scrapper? ;-) >> >> Generally, with a wad of $20 bills in hand. :-) > >I meant more generally how do you bump into them and establish enough >of a relationship that they'll give you a 'heads up' when they >encounter something you'd be interested in, like 19" racks, mainframe >or minicomputer iron, etc. That's pretty much an impossiblity! They usually don't know what the stuff is and in many cases they get loads that they never even look through. Besides many of them are just too lazt or too busy to call you. The best way to deal with scrappers is to visit them FREQUENTLY and look for yourself. Joe From josefcub at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 13:32:37 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:32:37 -0600 Subject: VAXstation drive sled description In-Reply-To: <80efb9fb4c67494bb6450907c1652552@valleyimplants.com> References: <80efb9fb4c67494bb6450907c1652552@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920601301132xd6aeacdw9b4e3e5a1d386b2e@mail.gmail.com> I'm going out on a limb on this one, but if the VS3100 M76 uses the same chassis as my M38 ( A slim, desktop affair made of solid metal), then it's just screw-on bosses, and no additional chassis needed. In essence, it's just a phillips-head screw/bolt with a rubber-like pad a short distance under the screw head that screws directly into my drives. Josef On 1/30/06, compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > I have a VS3100/76 that did not come with any drive sleds. I would like to fabricate a replacement, but I haven't been able to locate any in-depth descriptions or pictures of the sled. Does anyone have a description or picture? I'm not sure if it is screw-on bosses like Sun Aurora chasses use for the CD/Floppy or if it is a solid sled with the bosses included. > > -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From brian at quarterbyte.com Mon Jan 30 13:49:35 2006 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:49:35 -0800 Subject: Road Trips Message-ID: <43DDFD4F.15946.7D7648D2@brian.quarterbyte.com> > How many of you have done a road trip to get equipment? 3100 miles, one way. Flew out, drove rented truck back. This was for a IBM mainframe system. Brian From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jan 30 14:09:02 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:09:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: way OT: IITRAN was Re: RX02 and intel hex file tools Message-ID: <200601302009.MAA24784@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 1/30/2006 at 1:15 PM Roger Merchberger wrote: > >>Ontopically, I was thinking learning Forth was going to be my next big >>project, but I'm debating that some more and I think my free time will go >>a different direction; mainly getting back into 6809 assembly. > >I first saw Forth as STOIC under CP/M. Intriguing idea, but it struck me >as a "quick and dirty" easy-to-implement language. I don't think I'd want >to implement a General Ledger package in it, but for fool-around small >projects, it's probably fine. My impression is that the suitability for a >task decreases quickly as the task size increases. > >--Chuck Hi It is interesting that one of Forth's main virtues is saving large projects that get lost in unmanageable 'C' code. It has been brought in several times to save software projects that were just running on and on. As Richard mentions, it is an un-typed language. For many, this puts it in a lower class of programming language. In Forth, you have the freedom to pass any parameter as an address, even if it is totally in error. It's main advantage for larger projects is that one transforms the language into a language that makes sense for that project. One can even add type checking if it is required. It also tends to help the programmer write smaller simpler modular code that is more easily tested and debugged. This can significantly increase the output of the programmer for large projects. Since the language is often redefined around the project, it often requires strong project leadership or, when using a large number of programmers, the programmers tend to run off into tangents that don't match the main flow of the project. It is also called a programmer amplifier. A good programmer will write better code but a bad programmer will write really bad code. It has typically been used in control applications but data base systems and many other applications have been written using it. Usually, it is used for prototyping of a project and later replaced by something like 'C' code to keep a more maintainable code. It isn't that the code is really any more difficult to maintain than other languages, it is just that it is so much different looking, it takes someone the is proficient in it to read and understand what is happening. Still well written code can be handle by almost anyone. One of the people I know wrote a piece of code to handle some form of encoding/decoding ( I forget which one ). When he handed the code in, the manager passed it back to him and said that he must have made a mistake. What the manager thought he'd gotten was a spec sheet for the encoding and not the code to do it. This is what is meant by transforming the language to the application. If all programmer's output looked like this, the concept of maintaining code would completely change. Well written code should read this well in any language but most languages get in the way and hide the application. Sorry for rant, it is just that of all the programming languages that I've ever used, I am the most productive in Forth. I use it for almost all of my home projects, when I'm not forced to use some other language. Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 30 14:16:00 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:16:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: you never know what you can find if you just ask In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060130121456.R51230@shell.lmi.net> > > Of course, then I'd also want to get fancy, and put a cellular > > automaton engine into the silicon behind each pixel, and hook them up > > to their neighbours...and clock it all in parallel.... > > Now we're talkin! How about VFD graphics modules? Yes, but will it give a good brown for DONKEY? From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 14:40:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:40:50 -0700 Subject: Road Trips In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:49:35 -0800. <43DDFD4F.15946.7D7648D2@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: In article <43DDFD4F.15946.7D7648D2 at brian.quarterbyte.com>, "Brian Knittel" writes: > > How many of you have done a road trip to get equipment? > > 3100 miles, one way. Flew out, drove rented truck back. > This was for a IBM mainframe system. WOW! 3100 miles... that's like the max that you could do in the states. Did you get the system in Maine and drive it to San Diego? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 14:36:46 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:36:46 -0700 Subject: Data Systems Design A2130 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:17:18. <3.0.6.16.20060130141718.443fe022@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: In article <3.0.6.16.20060130141718.443fe022 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com>, "Joe R." writes: > I'm pretty sure that it's a DEC interface for one of the DSD 8" floppy > disk drive sub-system. I don't remember whick DEC system it's for. I have > the manual for the DSD drive system but it's not easy to get to at the > moment. I thought there was a copy posted on Bitsavers.org but I can't find > it now. IF IT"S FOR A PDP-8, I WANT IT! Its a buy-it-now item on ebay, 2 available, price $15 #5837244109 Since I don't have the drives (and apparently from cctalk archives its not directly compatible with RX0n drives), go for it! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 14:29:11 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:29:11 -0700 Subject: You Won eBay Item: DEC RL1 Diagnostics on RL-01 disk cartridge (8755900616) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:22:51 -0800. <1974122796.1138648971109.JavaMail.ebayapp@sj-v3eoa06> Message-ID: Woo hoo :-). How would I go about creating a disk image of this for bitsavers? I notice there aren't any RL01 disk images up there. What nifty things can I tell about my RL01 drives with this pack? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jan 30 15:40:09 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:40:09 Subject: Collecting development kits In-Reply-To: <43DD39AE.2020907@mich.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060130154009.42b780ca@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:54 PM 1/29/06 -0500, you wrote: >Richard wrote: > >>In article <20060129113221.0f1a2355.sastevens at earthlink.net>, >> Scott Stevens writes: >> >> >> >>>The cheapest, most common programmers from the mid-80s onward >>>should fill your need. Nothing special from Intel is needed. >>>Though collecting Intel development hardware as an end unto >>>itself is a worthy pursuit... >>> >>> >> >>How many of you collect development kit stuff like evaluation boards, >>in circuit emulators, cross compilers, etc. I have a BUNCH of Intel MDSs, at least 8 working 800s, 2 working 235s, a working 235 and two i201s and a BUNCH of intel Multibus cards. I also have a couple Tektronix developement systems, a TI system, an early Zilog system but never used them. I've been working on webpages for the Intel stuff but this is all I have up so far. Multibus boards > Intel MDS-800 #1 > Intel MDS-800 #3 > Intel MDS-800 #4 > Intel MDS Docs > Oh, I have parts from an AMC system and some other brands in my collection of Multibus boards. Joe From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 14:46:44 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:46:44 -0700 Subject: way OT: IITRAN was Re: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:09:02 -0800. <200601302009.MAA24784@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: In article <200601302009.MAA24784 at ca2h0430.amd.com>, "Dwight Elvey" writes: > As Richard mentions, it is an un-typed language. For > many, this puts it in a lower class of programming language. I don't know that I consider it a lower-class language, but a different class of language :-). > It's main advantage for larger projects is that one > transforms the language into a language that makes sense > for that project. [...] Agreed. > Since the language is often redefined around the project, > it often requires strong project leadership [...] I don't see this very often, unfortunately. Too often I see weak project leadership -- sometimes weak to the point of being non-existent. > It is also called a programmer amplifier. A good > programmer will write better code but a bad programmer > will write really bad code. Agreed. Good programmers are something of an unfortunate rarity as well. One of the ideas that I took from my experiments with FORTH is to focus my 'factoring' efforts on the smallest idioms I can get away with in the language. For C++ this means I use inline function idioms a lot, small idiomatic helper classes less often, and hardly ever use large frameworks. I like FORTH for minicomputer projects simply because its very expressive in a small space. Hrm... I should try and get a FORTH interpreter running on my 11/03! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 30 14:49:22 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:49:22 -0800 Subject: way OT: IITRAN was Re: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: <200601302009.MAA24784@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200601302009.MAA24784@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <200601301249220790.43C89DD5@10.0.0.252> On 1/30/2006 at 12:09 PM Dwight Elvey wrote: > Well written code should read this well in any language >but most languages get in the way and hide the application. > Sorry for rant, it is just that of all the programming >languages that I've ever used, I am the most productive >in Forth. I use it for almost all of my home projects, >when I'm not forced to use some other language. ...and I think we need to differentiate "coding" from "programming". Most of the large projects I've been responsible for were a line manager's nightmare. Months of seemingly nothing to show, no demonstrations, not a line of code written. Then, with the deadline looming on the horizon, with management swallowing valium by the handful--boom--the whole thing is suddenly born, more-or-less fully-formed and functional with minor nits for bugs. To me, the months of nothing happening are what I would call "programming"; the last bit is what I would call coding--and, as long as the design specs were readable, and care was made to preserve coding style, that last bit could be farmed out to kids right out of school, with just the occasional peek over the shoulder. The term "Programming Language" to me, perhaps save for some CASE tools, is an oxymoron. No implementation language, be it JOVIAL or Ada, actually helps you do the real programming bit. When the programming is done right, the tools necessary for coding are generally pretty inconsequential. Some implementation languages don't handle certain tasks well; you can choose to find a way to overcome this or you can find another implementation language that does--or write one yourself. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 30 14:59:04 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:59:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: You Won eBay Item: DEC RL1 Diagnostics on RL-01 disk cartridge In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 30, 2006 01:29:11 PM Message-ID: <200601302059.k0UKx4fv019829@onyx.spiritone.com> > Woo hoo :-). > > How would I go about creating a disk image of this for bitsavers? > > I notice there aren't any RL01 disk images up there. > > What nifty things can I tell about my RL01 drives with this pack? What is on it? What hardware and operating system do you have to make a disk image? I've always used VMS, but it can also be done on a PDP-11. Zane From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 07:17:27 2006 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:17:27 -0500 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 1/29/06 10:44 PM, "Richard" wrote: > > In article <200601300303.WAA21446 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, > der Mouse writes: > >>>> [PNG] [c]ertainly [has] lots more features [than GIF], which in >>>> actually a reason to avoid it, at least to me. [...] >>> Man, and I thought _I_ was a curmudgeon! :-) >> >> What's curmudgeonly about that? > > Shunning the new in favor of the old and reliable is generally > considered curmudgeonly. 20-somethings look at me odd when I say I > don't have a cell phone. (Frankly, I'm just not popular enough to > justify it.) If you wanted to get one, I'd call you if you're that lonely :) From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jan 30 15:21:49 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:21:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Road Trips In-Reply-To: <43DDFD4F.15946.7D7648D2@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: > 3100 miles, one way. Flew out, drove rented truck back. > This was for a IBM mainframe system. When do we get to see the pictures?! William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 15:23:29 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:23:29 -0700 Subject: Collecting development kits In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:40:09. <3.0.6.16.20060130154009.42b780ca@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: In article <3.0.6.16.20060130154009.42b780ca at pop-server.cfl.rr.com>, "Joe R." writes: > I have a BUNCH of Intel MDSs, at least 8 working 800s, 2 working 235s, a > working 235 and two i201s and a BUNCH of intel Multibus cards. I also have > a couple Tektronix developement systems, a TI system, an early Zilog system > but never used them. I was just looking at the 1983 Tektronix catalog on BitSavers the other day and noticed they had some fancy uP development systems. Are the ones you have in the catalog? > I've been working on webpages for the Intel stuff but > this is all I have up so far. > > Multibus boards > > Intel MDS-800 #1 > > Intel MDS-800 #3 > > Intel MDS-800 #4 > > Intel MDS Docs > Intel MDS under hp? Speaking of busses, does anyone have a good online reference URL for bus specifications? I know that individual busses like PCI have their own consortium with published specs, but I was thinking more of a single web site that collated all the bus information together, including historical busses like S-100, S-50, STD, VME, Unibus, multibus, massbus, Q-bus, etc. For instance, I looked for stuff on VME and multibus and didn't come up with anything obvious. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jan 30 15:44:48 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:44:48 +0000 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43DE88D0.8020903@gjcp.net> >>Shunning the new in favor of the old and reliable is generally >>considered curmudgeonly. 20-somethings look at me odd when I say I >>don't have a cell phone. (Frankly, I'm just not popular enough to >>justify it.) I can't afford to run a landline. Well, I can *now* thanks to free-ish VoIP providers. I can't justify spending that much money on a phone that I can only use in the house. Gordon. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 15:51:55 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:51:55 -0500 Subject: Road Trips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43DE8A7B.2010402@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <43DDFD4F.15946.7D7648D2 at brian.quarterbyte.com>, > "Brian Knittel" writes: > > >>>How many of you have done a road trip to get equipment? >> >>3100 miles, one way. Flew out, drove rented truck back. >>This was for a IBM mainframe system. > > > WOW! 3100 miles... that's like the max that you could do in the > states. Did you get the system in Maine and drive it to San Diego? > :-) The longest drive I've ever done at a stretch was from Potsdam, NY to Cabo San Lucas, Baja California Sur, Mexico. There were four of us switching off. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 15:56:47 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:56:47 -0700 Subject: Bus reference (was: Collecting development kits) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:23:29 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > Speaking of busses, does anyone have a good online reference URL for > bus specifications? I know that individual busses like PCI have their > own consortium with published specs, but I was thinking more of a > single web site that collated all the bus information together, > including historical busses like S-100, S-50, STD, VME, Unibus, > multibus, massbus, Q-bus, etc. For instance, I looked for stuff on > VME and multibus and didn't come up with anything obvious. Silly me... I ask where it is and then I find it. D'oh! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 16:02:39 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:02:39 -0700 Subject: You Won eBay Item: DEC RL1 Diagnostics on RL-01 disk cartridge In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 2006 12:59:04 -0800. <200601302059.k0UKx4fv019829@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: In article <200601302059.k0UKx4fv019829 at onyx.spiritone.com>, "Zane H. Healy" writes: > > Woo hoo :-). > > > > How would I go about creating a disk image of this for bitsavers? > > > > I notice there aren't any RL01 disk images up there. > > > > What nifty things can I tell about my RL01 drives with this pack? > > What is on it? "One DEC RL01K-DC disk cartridge. The label on it says that it contains the RL1 Diagnostics program. the complete label reads "AX-E380Z-MC CZZLAZO DLP+ RL1 Diag Pkg1". The disk cartridge appears to be in perfect condition in every respect. I have also lifted it out of the carrier and inspected the disk itself and it appears to be clean and in perfect condition. (I used to work on these drives so I do know what I'm doing.) The carrier contains a Shock-Watch that indicates if it has be dropped or experienced a severe shock. It has not been tripped." > What hardware and operating system do you have to make a > disk image? PDP-11/03, dual RL01s, RT-11. I have no idea if RT-11 has a native utility that permits making a disc image. I can imagine that I might have to write something that grabs a block off the disc and transfers it to another computer Kermit style across the console SLU. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Jan 30 16:49:01 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:49:01 -0500 Subject: way OT: IITRAN was Re: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601301749.01430.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 30 January 2006 02:03 pm, Richard wrote: > In article <200601301050080652.435B73FC at 10.0.0.252>, > > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > > I first saw Forth as STOIC under CP/M. [...] > > My impression is that the suitability for a > > task decreases quickly as the task size increases. > > I'd say that's accurate. FORTH was designed for microprocessor > control in embedded systems. People have added all kinds of layers on > top of the kernel over the years, but its typeless nature gets kind of > grungy in larger applications. In spite of what I hear about it being designed for that kind of app (originally for telesscope control?) the stuff I've gotten so far seems to be remarkably weak in terms of i/o operations, with a LOT (way too much) being devoted to console-I/O type stuff. Which doesn't help a whole lot when you don't have a console... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 30 16:55:59 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:55:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: RL01 imaging Message-ID: <20060130225559.BCF42197C8F@bitsavers.org> I have no idea if RT-11 has a native utility that permits making a disc image. -- copy/device with one other option I don't remember off the top of my head ----- > I notice there aren't any RL01 disk images up there. -- PDP-11 software is still being sold (in theory..) From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Jan 30 16:58:11 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:58:11 -0500 Subject: Collecting development kits In-Reply-To: <200601301904.LAA22647@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200601301904.LAA22647@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <200601301758.11350.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 30 January 2006 02:04 pm, Dwight Elvey wrote: > I have a number of other single board development units like SYM-1's. You have multiple SYM-1s? Wanna part with one? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 30 17:02:35 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:02:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: DSD A2130 Message-ID: <20060130230235.75D8D197C92@bitsavers.org> Its a buy-it-now item on ebay, 2 available, price $15 -- They appear to be Unibus. You can see bus grant and interrupt jumpers above the third connector. A2131 is pdp8 A4430 is unibus A4432 is qbus from http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dsd/040009-01_440_UG_Jul81.pdf A2130 is unibus A2132 is qbus from http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dsd/040008-01_210_UG_Nov78.pdf From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 17:03:47 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:03:47 -0700 Subject: way OT: IITRAN was Re: RX02 and intel hex file tools In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:49:01 -0500. <200601301749.01430.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: In article <200601301749.01430.rtellason at blazenet.net>, "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > On Monday 30 January 2006 02:03 pm, Richard wrote: > > In article <200601301050080652.435B73FC at 10.0.0.252>, > > I'd say that's accurate. FORTH was designed for microprocessor > > control in embedded systems. People have added all kinds of layers on > > top of the kernel over the years, but its typeless nature gets kind of > > grungy in larger applications. > > In spite of what I hear about it being designed for that kind of app > (originally for telesscope control?) the stuff I've gotten so far seems to be > remarkably weak in terms of i/o operations, with a LOT (way too much) being > devoted to console-I/O type stuff. Which doesn't help a whole lot when you > don't have a console... I believe the FORTH philosophy is that you should write your own I/O WORDs that make sense for your application. The console I/O stuff is only there because FORTH is intended to be an interactive environment (at least for development). You mean your target system doesn't even have a serial port? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 17:06:05 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:06:05 -0700 Subject: TU-58 connection to 11/03? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:55:59 -0800. <20060130225559.BCF42197C8F@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Vince Slyngstad just pointed out to me that there's a TU-58 (DECtape) emulator that runs on a PC and can be used to transfer data in/out of a PDP-11 to a modern PC. Supposedly this is just connecting the PC to a serial port. However, on my PDP-11/03, I only know about the serial ports for the console and line printer options. Where is the serial port for the TU-58? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 17:07:33 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:07:33 -0700 Subject: DSD A2130 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:02:35 -0800. <20060130230235.75D8D197C92@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <20060130230235.75D8D197C92 at bitsavers.org>, aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) writes: > They appear to be Unibus. You can see bus grant and interrupt jumpers > above the third connector. Good thing I didn't buy it then since I don't have a Unibus 11! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 30 17:17:03 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:17:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: You Won eBay Item: DEC RL1 Diagnostics on RL-01 disk cartridge In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 30, 2006 03:02:39 PM Message-ID: <200601302317.k0UNH3dS027420@onyx.spiritone.com> > "One DEC RL01K-DC disk cartridge. The label on it says that it > contains the RL1 Diagnostics program. the complete label reads > "AX-E380Z-MC CZZLAZO DLP+ RL1 Diag Pkg1". The disk cartridge I was going to comment on my inability to read subject lines, but this sounds like something at least a little different from a standard XXDP pack (maybe a specialized one?). > > What hardware and operating system do you have to make a > > disk image? > > PDP-11/03, dual RL01s, RT-11. > > I have no idea if RT-11 has a native utility that permits making a > disc image. I can imagine that I might have to write something that > grabs a block off the disc and transfers it to another computer Kermit > style across the console SLU. Ouch. With that selection of hardware, I'm honestly not sure how you would go about doing this. Jerome might be able to offer some advice. Zane From brian at quarterbyte.com Mon Jan 30 18:04:58 2006 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:04:58 -0800 Subject: Road Trips Message-ID: <43DE392A.12122.7E60155C@brian.quarterbyte.com> > WOW! 3100 miles... that's like the max that you could do in the > states. Did you get the system in Maine and drive it to San > Diego? Close -- Canton, MA to Oakland, CA. Mapquest calls it 3113 miles, but we took a couple of short side trips in western MA, so our trip may just edge out Vinces's Beaverton, OR to Gloucester, MA roundtrip. Besides, we had a 28' truck, not a poofy little van :) (And, hmm, Key West, FL to Blaine, WA seems to be the longest driving distance in the contiguous 48 states, over 3600 miles. Are any longer shortest-path trips possible entirely within one country? Looks like Canada, Russia and China have longer ones, and maybe Chile). The major geek factor during the drive was maintaining a spreadsheet that calculated our arrival time in Salt Lake City, factoring in waypoint distances, driving speed, rest stops and sleep times, which we used to ensure we'd make it to the Red Iguana restaurant for dinner before it closed. It turned out we were only allowed three hours of sleep in Nebraska, but it worked. Left MA on Thursday evening, and made it to SLC on Sunday night with two hours to spare. (Why? Seven reasons: mole coloradito, mole amarillo, mole negro, mole poblano, mole pipian, mole verde, and mole de almendras -- worth a trip to Utah just to eat there, but this drifting off topic, isn't it.). Made it home to Oakland Monday night. > When do we get to see the pictures?! We should have some pictures of the Sunshine Biscuit Factory remodel and the system up on ibm1130.org or maybe another site (as we have everything but the 1130 there) sometime soon; we'll make an announcement when it happens. Brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian at ptubes.com _| _| _| http://www.ptubes.com From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 18:34:49 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:34:49 -0700 Subject: Road Trips In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:04:58 -0800. <43DE392A.12122.7E60155C@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: In article <43DE392A.12122.7E60155C at brian.quarterbyte.com>, "Brian Knittel" writes: > The major geek factor during the drive was maintaining a spreadsheet > that calculated our arrival time in Salt Lake City, factoring in > waypoint distances, driving speed, rest stops and sleep times, which > we used to ensure we'd make it to the Red Iguana restaurant for > dinner before it closed. [...] Definately worth planning for! But how did you know to plan for it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Jan 30 18:46:33 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 16:46:33 -0800 Subject: Collecting development kits (Intel Probes) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43DEB369.5060501@msm.umr.edu> There are two really nifty probes on Ebay of interest to anyone following this thread. One is for the Pentium, and the other is for the Pentium + MMX, both socket 7, I believe. auction 7584878862 is for the pentium, and auction 7584877057 is for the MMX one. the xxx8862 auction seems to have a processor, the xxx7057 one does not. These are HP interposers, designed to go between a processor and socket, and connect to a logic analyzer. I think they take power supplies, or may be powered off the analyzer cables, I don't recall right now. There is a run control connector visible on the top view photograph, so if you have an agilent e5900a or e5900b that allows you to stop the processor, you are all set. Jim From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 30 18:17:56 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 00:17:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: streaky printing? In-Reply-To: <43DD5E91.2080503@yahoo.com> from "Al Hartman" at Jan 29, 6 07:32:17 pm Message-ID: > > Anyone with LaserJet 4000 and 4050's and similar printers can buy a > Maintenance Kit from www.printerworks.com and put it in yourself... > > It replaces the rubber components and the fuser, so you can give your > wonderful workhorse of a Laser printer, a little TLC. > I've repaired many CX and SX engined printers, and I found it a lot cheaper to buy just those bits that wear out. You don't need to replace the whole fuser, jsut the rollers and/or lamp, for example. Yes, it's a bit more work, but time is worth nothing to me. > I recommend it every 200,000 pages (as does HP). > > The kits come with FULL instructions and anyone on this list can handle it... I figured out how to repair the CX printer by taking one apart and putting it back together _without the benefit of any instructions_. And if I can do it, anyone can. They're just not that complicated. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 30 18:25:15 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 00:25:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK611 schematics In-Reply-To: <17747.195.212.29.83.1138605564.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> from "gordonjcp@gjcp.net" at Jan 30, 6 07:19:24 am Message-ID: > > > >> Not > >> everybody understands electronics that well as you do Tony. An educated > > > > I don't claim to be a programmer, but I sure as heck don't debug programs > > by making random changes and seeing what hapepns. I do try to understand > > what's going on. > > Really? Because recently I've been working on a couple of things where > that was the only way I could make any progress, initially. Force a few > variables to different values, and see what falls off. That's not making random changes. It sounds like the equivalent of making careful tweaks to hardware adjustments to see what happens (this is not the same as turning every adjustment all over the place hoping it'll fix the fault!). And I am quite sure you had some idea as to what was going on before you started chenging things. > > > And I must admit that my first reaction when I discover I don't know > > something that would be useful to know is to try to learn or understand > > it. > > Often easier said than done. Especially when a lot of people think it's > clever to use compiler side-effects to get things done. Err, yes..... -tony From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jan 30 19:02:45 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:02:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Collecting development kits Message-ID: <200601310102.RAA02005@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi I have two but I'd like to keep them both. I once had three but I've since given one to another friend. One of the two is in a project I built and the other is the one I play with. I have a FDC-ONE board, also, but I've not had time to replace all the missing parts and get it running. To make things complete, I have a working KTM-2 ( 40 ) as well :) I also have a SYM2. It is basically a slightly stripped down SYM1 but does have an on-board +5 regulator so it can be run from an AC wall transformer. Dwight >From: "Roy J. Tellason" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:58:11 -0500 >Subject: Re: Collecting development kits > >On Monday 30 January 2006 02:04 pm, Dwight Elvey wrote: >> I have a number of other single board development units like SYM-1's. > >You have multiple SYM-1s? Wanna part with one? > >-- >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and >ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can >be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >- >Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James >M Dakin > From Tim at Rikers.org Mon Jan 30 19:03:15 2006 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:03:15 -0700 Subject: Road Trips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43DEB753.90007@Rikers.org> Richard wrote: > In article <43DE392A.12122.7E60155C at brian.quarterbyte.com>, > "Brian Knittel" writes: > >>The major geek factor during the drive was maintaining a spreadsheet >>that calculated our arrival time in Salt Lake City, factoring in >>waypoint distances, driving speed, rest stops and sleep times, which >>we used to ensure we'd make it to the Red Iguana restaurant for >>dinner before it closed. [...] > > Definately worth planning for! But how did you know to plan for it? I thought only locals knew about it. ;-) FYI: http://www.rediguana.com/ -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jan 30 20:16:34 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:16:34 Subject: Id this IC? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060130201634.199708ee@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Does anyone have any idea what this IC is? This is the second one that I've found but I haven't been able to find any information on it. Not even who made it. It's a standard .3" wide 16-pinDIP and it's marked PX032768 (9003) and it has a small window on one end. Inside the window is what looks like a tiny tuning fork or something. Any ideas? Joe From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 19:21:34 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:21:34 -0700 Subject: PLATO system / CDC mainframe / PLATO terminals Message-ID: OK, now I know there are some mainframe freaks out there on this list :-), but I would be absolutely flabbergasted if someone had a working CDC mainframe running PLATO! However, I figure there is still a small chance that someone has a PLATO terminal? These were Z80-based, IIRC, had plasma screen displays at first, and later had raster displays. They were *heavy* and if I recall correctly they had a card cage on top of which sat the monitor. They also had a funky PLATO specific keyboard. Any other PLATO users out there? I was on udel's system in the 1978-1986 time frame, off and on, although PLATO wasn't the primary focus of my activities. I did a little Tutor programming, but somehow the language never quite gelled with me. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From rickb at bensene.com Mon Jan 30 19:27:35 2006 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:27:35 -0800 Subject: RL01 imaging In-Reply-To: <20060130225559.BCF42197C8F@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000701c62605$83a728a0$030aa8c0@bensene.com> Couldn't you do such a thing with PIP? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 30 19:49:08 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:49:08 -0800 Subject: PLATO system / CDC mainframe / PLATO terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601301749080661.44DB0C7C@10.0.0.252> On 1/30/2006 at 6:21 PM Richard wrote: >OK, now I know there are some mainframe freaks out there on this list >:-), but I would be absolutely flabbergasted if someone had a working >CDC mainframe running PLATO! > >However, I figure there is still a small chance that someone has a >PLATO terminal? These were Z80-based, IIRC, had plasma screen >displays at first, and later had raster displays. They were *heavy* >and if I recall correctly they had a card cage on top of which sat the >monitor. They also had a funky PLATO specific keyboard. IIRC, there's still a Cyber down in Texas running the Plato software. At least it was a few months ago. If Are you certain that the earliest plasma versions used a Z80? It seems to me that they preceded the Z80. Cheers, Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jan 30 19:52:36 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:52:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Road Trips In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > WOW! 3100 miles... that's like the max that you could do in the > states. Did you get the system in Maine and drive it to San Diego? OK, lightweights - I have done the cross county trip several times now, and a few from NY to TX, NY to TN, and countless trips from NY to IL. The most stressful was not far - NY to OH, but I had to do the round trip three times in six days, hauling crap. I have also done at least a few 500+ mile trips with less than a days notice. Which brings up the next cross country trip... Some of you folks know the deal. Every year I try to make a cross county trip in early May. In order to fund the trip, I haul large things for people. I have a van and a flatbed trailer, so I can take fairly large items like six foot minicomputers. Things that ride on the trailer are completely wrapped in a thick cacoon of plastic, tape and shrinkwrap, and is watertight. My trip starts in NY (Hudson Valley region) and takes me to both the Bay Area and LA. I can pick up or drop off just about anywhere along the way, and can even go a bit out of the way (last year was down to KY, I could even pick up in MA). There will be a definite stop in Boulder, CO. Prices? Cheap! Well, relatively cheap. Gas is going to really sting this year, so my rates may need to go up. Cheaper than the freight company, with "grey glove" service, anyway. Remember, I collect big computers as well, and bashed in parts due to shipping really bother me! This is a bit preliminary, but the time is right to start fishing for deliveries. I would leave NY sometime around mid-April, and return in mid-May. If interested, please contact me off list. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jan 30 20:54:02 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:54:02 Subject: Multibus website updated Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060130205402.435721c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I've just finished updating of my Multibus board website. It's at . If anyone can provide any more info on the cards there or pictures and info on other Multibus cards that aren't currently on there feel free to e-mail me directly. Joe From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jan 30 19:53:56 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 20:53:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: PLATO system / CDC mainframe / PLATO terminals In-Reply-To: <200601301749080661.44DB0C7C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > IIRC, there's still a Cyber down in Texas running the Plato software. At > least it was a few months ago. If Where? It would be nice to try and make sure the machine gets a good retirement. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 30 19:57:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:57:24 -0800 Subject: Id this IC? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060130201634.199708ee@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060130201634.199708ee@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200601301757240625.44E29DD7@10.0.0.252> On 1/30/2006 at 8:16 PM Joe R. wrote: >Does anyone have any idea what this IC is? > This is the second >one that I've found but I haven't been able to find any information on it. >Not even who made it. It's a standard .3" wide 16-pinDIP and it's marked >PX032768 (9003) and it has a small window on one end. Inside the window is >what looks like a tiny tuning fork or something. Any ideas? I think that the PXO ("oh", not zero) and the 32768 is the clue. It's a PROGRAMMABLE CRYSTAL OSC DIP16 0.0-327Hz http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp?product_id=689 64&czuid=1138682843680 Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jan 30 20:00:04 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:00:04 -0500 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them References: Message-ID: <004201c6260a$0e716a00$72781941@game> I was wondering have you guys ever seen piles of computer equipment that was dirt cheap but you didn't bother grabbing at the time only to see them become rare and desired later on? From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jan 30 20:01:58 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:01:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: way OT: IITRAN was Re: RX02 and intel hex file tools Message-ID: <200601310202.SAA03765@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi I'm not sure what you mean here. I have code that I use similar to Dave Dunfields that talks directly to I/O devices. The only assembly code I wrote is a few lines for the interrupt acknowledgment from the DMA controller. Ease of I/O control is one of the better points. If you mean there are often no libraries, this is really a matter of whose Forth you are using. There is a commercial Forth that is intended to be run as a tethered Forth. It can be used with a serial port or with one bi-directional line and a strobe signal. This allows interactive from a PC while the final application could be standalone, on minimum resourses. Dwight >From: "Roy J. Tellason" > >On Monday 30 January 2006 02:03 pm, Richard wrote: >> In article <200601301050080652.435B73FC at 10.0.0.252>, >> >> "Chuck Guzis" writes: >> > I first saw Forth as STOIC under CP/M. [...] >> > My impression is that the suitability for a >> > task decreases quickly as the task size increases. >> >> I'd say that's accurate. FORTH was designed for microprocessor >> control in embedded systems. People have added all kinds of layers on >> top of the kernel over the years, but its typeless nature gets kind of >> grungy in larger applications. > >In spite of what I hear about it being designed for that kind of app >(originally for telesscope control?) the stuff I've gotten so far seems to be >remarkably weak in terms of i/o operations, with a LOT (way too much) being >devoted to console-I/O type stuff. Which doesn't help a whole lot when you >don't have a console... > >-- >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and >ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can >be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >- >Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James >M Dakin > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jan 30 20:04:09 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:04:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Id this IC? Message-ID: <200601310204.SAA03862@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi Joe I think that is a clock chip. It is for low frequency, like 32KHz. I think I've seen these someplace but don't recall where. Why it has a window I don't know but it might be for laser fine tuning. Dwight >From: "Joe R." > > Does anyone have any idea what this IC is? > This is the second >one that I've found but I haven't been able to find any information on it. >Not even who made it. It's a standard .3" wide 16-pinDIP and it's marked >PX032768 (9003) and it has a small window on one end. Inside the window is >what looks like a tiny tuning fork or something. Any ideas? > > Joe > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 30 20:14:27 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:14:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: PLATO system / CDC mainframe / PLATO terminals Message-ID: <20060131021427.27DCC197CC6@bitsavers.org> > OK, now I know there are some mainframe freaks out ther google for 'controlfreaks', which is the mailing list for people using the CDC 6600/cyber simulator one of the controlfreaks has a complete Plato system running on the net http://www.cyber1.org/ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 30 20:19:07 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:19:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them Message-ID: <20060131021907.8A014197CCC@bitsavers.org> I was wondering have you guys ever seen piles of computer equipment that was dirt cheap but you didn't bother grabbing at the time only to see them become rare and desired later on? -- Corvus Concepts Weird Stuff (when they were in Milpitas) had pallet racks full of Corvus stuff. -- What is more interesting is what exists now that should be saved. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jan 30 20:22:08 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:22:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: <004201c6260a$0e716a00$72781941@game> References: <004201c6260a$0e716a00$72781941@game> Message-ID: <20060130182020.S34247@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, Teo Zenios wrote: > I was wondering have you guys ever seen piles of computer equipment that was > dirt cheap but you didn't bother grabbing at the time only to see them > become rare and desired later on? Of course. But who woulda thunk that anybody would WANT those old Kurta calculators, Apple 1s, Lisa's, etc. Particularly when you could get a small trade-in for currrent stuff. From James at jdfogg.com Mon Jan 30 20:22:18 2006 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:22:18 -0500 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5BE8@sbs.jdfogg.com> > I was wondering have you guys ever seen piles of computer > equipment that was dirt cheap but you didn't bother grabbing > at the time only to see them become rare and desired later on? Dude, All The Time. My ass is bruised from my kicking it. From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jan 30 20:29:48 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:29:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: <004201c6260a$0e716a00$72781941@game> Message-ID: > I was wondering have you guys ever seen piles of computer equipment that was > dirt cheap but you didn't bother grabbing at the time only to see them > become rare and desired later on? It would be harder to come up with a list of the opposite. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Jan 30 20:51:34 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:51:34 -0800 Subject: Id this IC? In-Reply-To: <200601310204.SAA03862@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200601310204.SAA03862@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <43DED0B6.5000000@msm.umr.edu> Dwight Elvey wrote: >Hi Joe > > In looking around, it appears to be a Statek pxo32768 Programmable Crystal Oscillator (PXO) these oscillators appear to be the nearest that is in their current line to that type of oscillator. I didn't find anything on the part online anywhere though. the new line of crystals is the LXO line, and only are similar in that they have a window. W/O knowing all you could do with the PXO, it would be hard to guage what is equivalent, if you are seeking a replacement. http://www.statek.com/products/smcrystals1.asp jim From allain at panix.com Mon Jan 30 20:55:37 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:55:37 -0500 Subject: Road Trips References: Message-ID: <002901c62611$d11d5da0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > This is a bit preliminary, but the time is right to start fishing for > deliveries. Hi William, A bit preliminary here too. It would be nice to not have to ignore some offerings in California. State your terms and I'll keep my options open. It might be nice to give periodic status reports, like 'still free, half full, last chance', etc. Yup, interested. John A. ----- Original Message ----- From: William Donzelli To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 8:52 PM Subject: Re: Road Trips > > WOW! 3100 miles... that's like the max that you could do in the > > states. Did you get the system in Maine and drive it to San Diego? > > OK, lightweights - I have done the cross county trip several times now, > and a few from NY to TX, NY to TN, and countless trips from NY to IL. The > most stressful was not far - NY to OH, but I had to do the round trip > three times in six days, hauling crap. I have also done at least a few > 500+ mile trips with less than a days notice. > > Which brings up the next cross country trip... > > Some of you folks know the deal. Every year I try to make a cross county > trip in early May. In order to fund the trip, I haul large things for > people. I have a van and a flatbed trailer, so I can take fairly large > items like six foot minicomputers. Things that ride on the trailer are > completely wrapped in a thick cacoon of plastic, tape and shrinkwrap, and > is watertight. > > My trip starts in NY (Hudson Valley region) and takes me to both the Bay > Area and LA. I can pick up or drop off just about anywhere along the way, > and can even go a bit out of the way (last year was down to KY, I could > even pick up in MA). There will be a definite stop in Boulder, CO. > > Prices? Cheap! Well, relatively cheap. Gas is going to really sting this > year, so my rates may need to go up. Cheaper than the freight company, > with "grey glove" service, anyway. Remember, I collect big computers as > well, and bashed in parts due to shipping really bother me! > > This is a bit preliminary, but the time is right to start fishing for > deliveries. I would leave NY sometime around mid-April, and return in > mid-May. > > If interested, please contact me off list. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 21:02:04 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:02:04 -0500 Subject: Road Trips In-Reply-To: <43DE392A.12122.7E60155C@brian.quarterbyte.com> References: <43DE392A.12122.7E60155C@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: <43DED32C.40600@gmail.com> Brian Knittel wrote: > (And, hmm, Key West, FL to Blaine, WA seems to be the longest driving > distance in the contiguous 48 states, over 3600 miles. Are any longer > shortest-path trips possible entirely within one country? Looks like > Canada, Russia and China have longer ones, and maybe Chile). Australia? Brazil, possibly? India? (Kanyakumari to Aizawl without cutting through Bangladesh?) Peace... Sridhar From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jan 30 21:10:06 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:10:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Road Trips In-Reply-To: <002901c62611$d11d5da0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: > A bit preliminary here too. It would be nice to not have > to ignore some offerings in California. > State your terms and I'll keep my options open. The terms depend on how far and how much. If loading is a issue, that could change things. For example, if i need to drag a rack up from a cellar with only the help of an old man, I will want something for the effort. Once again, cheap - especially if you have ever priced movers to do this work! > It might be nice to give periodic status reports, > like 'still free, half full, last chance', etc. > Yup, interested. I probably will, especially if I am still a bit short. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jan 30 21:10:26 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:10:26 -0600 Subject: Id this IC? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060130201634.199708ee@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060130201634.199708ee@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060130210852.0530b038@mail> At 02:16 PM 1/30/2006, you wrote: >Not even who made it. It's a standard .3" wide 16-pinDIP and it's marked >PX032768 (9003) and it has a small window on one end. Inside the window is >what looks like a tiny tuning fork or something. Any ideas? Meditate on 32,768 until you hear a ringing in your ears. :-) - John From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Jan 30 21:44:32 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:44:32 -0500 Subject: Id this IC? References: <3.0.6.16.20060130201634.199708ee@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <00f701c62618$a81c10c0$0100a8c0@screamer> Its a 32 Khz crystal, not a chip. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 8:16 PM Subject: Id this IC? > Does anyone have any idea what this IC is? > This is the > second > one that I've found but I haven't been able to find any information on it. > Not even who made it. It's a standard .3" wide 16-pinDIP and it's marked > PX032768 (9003) and it has a small window on one end. Inside the window > is > what looks like a tiny tuning fork or something. Any ideas? > > Joe > > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Jan 30 21:45:24 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:45:24 -0500 Subject: You Won eBay Item: DEC RL1 Diagnostics on RL-01 disk cartridge In-Reply-To: <200601302317.k0UNH3dS027420@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200601302317.k0UNH3dS027420@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <43DEDD54.80402@compsys.to> >Zane H. Healy wrote: >> "One DEC RL01K-DC disk cartridge. The label on it says that it >> contains the RL1 Diagnostics program. the complete label reads >> "AX-E380Z-MC CZZLAZO DLP+ RL1 Diag Pkg1". The disk cartridge >> >> >I was going to comment on my inability to read subject lines, but this >sounds like something at least a little different from a standard XXDP pack >(maybe a specialized one?). > >>>What hardware and operating system do you have to make a >>>disk image? >>> >>PDP-11/03, dual RL01s, RT-11. >> >>I have no idea if RT-11 has a native utility that permits making a >>disc image. I can imagine that I might have to write something that >>grabs a block off the disc and transfers it to another computer Kermit >>style across the console SLU. >> >Ouch. With that selection of hardware, I'm honestly not sure how you would >go about doing this. Jerome might be able to offer some advice. > Jerome Fine replies: First, to clarify, since the "RL01 Diagnostics" pack is non-native to RT-11, PIP can't be used since it is able to copy ONLY files. The utility program provide by DEC is DUP.SAV and it basically operates in two modes: (a) Device to Device COPY/DEVICE DVA: DVB: options include starting block and ending block for DVA: options include starting block for DVB: the size of DVA: and DVB: need not be the same, so if the destination is smaller, some of the source will obviously not be copied (b) File to Device OR Device to File COPY/DEVICE/FILES DVA: DEV:FOOBAR.DSK COPY/DEVICE/FILES DEV:FOOBAR.DSK DVB: options include ??? - I can't remember since I have never used them in this mode Obviously, to hold the complete device, the device "DEV:" must be at least 8 blocks larger than DVA:, although this is not required. In general, if you are using RT-11 to copy only a portion of a device to a file, I recommend setting up a logical device under RT-11 and handling the copy as device to device. When a file is being copied to a device, DUP.SAV will handle that situation without difficulty in the obvious manner. ONE other MAJOR problem. Since the diagnostic pack is NOT the RT-11 file structure, etc., the bad block replacement is also not available (at least as far as I know!!!). If there are any bad blocks on the diagnostic pack, they can't be handled automatically by RT-11. I suggest running the RT-11 command: DIR/BAD DLn: to find out. If there are NO bad blocks, then just proceed. Otherwise, you should attempt to figure out what to do. I may be able to help if you can't figure out. Any other questions? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Jan 30 22:39:45 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:39:45 -0500 Subject: Fwd: [LebanonPAFreeCycle] Wyse 60 and Wyse 325 terminals Message-ID: <200601302339.45945.rtellason@blazenet.net> In case this is of any interest to folks in here... ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: [LebanonPAFreeCycle] Wyse 60 and Wyse 325 terminals Date: Monday 30 January 2006 01:48 pm From: "ron115fox" To: LebanonPAFreeCycle at yahoogroups.com Several working Wyse 60 and Wyse 325 terminals are available for the taking. They are not PC copmpatable. They connect serially to a UNIX/Linux/AIX/Sun based server. Located just outside Lebanon on the southeastern side (Iona). ------------------------------------------------------- -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 22:51:32 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:51:32 -0700 Subject: PLATO system / CDC mainframe / PLATO terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:49:08 -0800. <200601301749080661.44DB0C7C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200601301749080661.44DB0C7C at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > IIRC, there's still a Cyber down in Texas running the Plato software. At > least it was a few months ago. If Cool! > Are you certain that the earliest plasma versions used a Z80? It seems to > me that they preceded the Z80. Nope, I'm not certain. I don't think I ever saw the insides of the plasma terminals, but I did get a peek inside the raster terminal once. It looked like a card cage :). Someone else told me it was a Z80 at the time, I think. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 30 22:53:41 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 21:53:41 -0700 Subject: PLATO system / CDC mainframe / PLATO terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:14:27 -0800. <20060131021427.27DCC197CC6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <20060131021427.27DCC197CC6 at bitsavers.org>, aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) writes: > one of the controlfreaks has a complete Plato system running > on the net Well, I don't really consider a system running on an emulator to be "complete", but yeah, I knew about that site. I'm really just dying to get one (or one of each kind) of the terminals in my collection though! Its an important piece of graphics history. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon Jan 30 22:54:53 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:54:53 -0500 Subject: pdp stuff available... 11/84, FPS100, (several) In-Reply-To: <005201c61fc6$92d29de0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> References: <005201c61fc6$92d29de0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Message-ID: <43DEED9D.2080101@jcwren.com> So what became of this? I sent Jay an email and never heard a reply back. I live here in Atlanta, and that's about 40 miles from me. --jc Jay West wrote: > Available in Marietta Georgia.... > > Around six 11/84's, and a pile of FPS-100 array processors. > > There are some Emulex SC-31's and some SCSI controllers. > > I'm looking for someone to pass the deal off to who can pick it all up > within the next 2 weeks. Contact me offlist.... > > Jay West > jwest at classiccmp.org From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jan 30 22:58:01 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:58:01 -0500 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them References: Message-ID: <003601c62622$e9c9fc30$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 9:29 PM Subject: Re: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them > > I was wondering have you guys ever seen piles of computer equipment that was > > dirt cheap but you didn't bother grabbing at the time only to see them > > become rare and desired later on? > > It would be harder to come up with a list of the opposite. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org Everybody probably has stories on passing up items that ended up being worth money on ebay later on. I was thinking more of things you ended up wanting for your own collection later on, but passed up when it was easy to find earlier. For instance 16MB 30 pin SIMMs were fairly cheap at some point but I never stocked up on them, now I have all these older Macs and add-on cards that can use them but they are hard to come by cheap. From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Tue Jan 31 00:29:36 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (oldcpu at rogerwilco.org) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:29:36 -0700 (MST) Subject: RL01 imaging Message-ID: <1138688975.43df03d002642@www.jblaser.org> > Vince Slyngstad just pointed out to me that there's a TU-58 (DECtape) > emulator that runs on a PC and can be used to transfer data in/out of > a PDP-11 to a modern PC. > Supposedly this is just connecting the PC to a serial port. However, > on my PDP-11/03, I only know about the serial ports for the console > and line printer options. Where is the serial port for the TU-58? I've been using Will Kranz's TU-58 emulator to do just this sort of thing, making images of 5 diskpacks that were included in a recent 11/23+ acquisition. Use a null-modem cable between the second serial port on the CPU (LPS port) and connect it to your PC's serial port. You might need a 25pin-to-9pin adapter, but it's just a standard null-modem cable in any case. On my 11/23+ the LPS port is set for 9600 (which I think was pretty standard), but I could go to 19.2K with some jumper changes that I haven't got the nerve to try yet. Your system might already be set to a higher speed. Experiment a little and you'll figure it out, or physically examine the CPU board. In any case, using such a slow speed for transfering 5MB or 10MB images definitely takes a while, but it is also definitely worth doing. You want to preserve that diskpack image! At 9600 a 5MB disk will take just shy of 2 hours. Check out Will's TU-58 emulator page at http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/tu58-emu.htm J. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 31 00:37:03 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:37:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: one way to do a benchmark Message-ID: <200601310637.WAA20074@floodgap.com> http://www.geekpatrol.ca/article/101/geekbench-comparison Scroll down to "More Integer Performance." Presented without further comment. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The only thing to fear is fearlessness -- R. E. M. ------------------------- From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jan 31 01:01:02 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:01:02 -0600 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: <200601300623.BAA03447@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200601300303.WAA21446@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43DD9BE4.5030707@oldskool.org> <200601300623.BAA03447@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43DF0B2E.7030303@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: >>- Better compression with faster decompression speeds (PNG uses LZ77, >>GIF uses LZ78) > > You need to go reread the spec. GIF uses LZW, Lempel-Ziv-Welch, a > significant extension to LZ. LZ77 and LZ78 are the two basic families of most low-resource compression schemes. I used those terms specifically because most LZ77 implementations beat most LZ78 implementations. Yes, Terry Welch figured out you don't need to transmit the dictionary in LZ78, but S&S figured out at the same time that LZ78 can be made more efficient than LZ77 if you flag literals with bits (LZSS) instead of trying to encode them. I only write the above because it is *you* who didn't read enough :-) If you want to debate compression we can talk offline; but the simple answer is that the compression scheme used by PNG compresses smaller and decompresses faster than what GIF uses. >>- Color depths *above* 8-bit (ie. 24-bit color) >>- Alpha channel (256 levels of transparancy) > > Neither of these appeared to matter from what I could see. If either > is necessary, PNG may indeed be called for. The alpha channel is barely used, but the ability to have a picture with more than 256 colors is most certainly used. Prior to PNG it was compressed TIFF, which had so many variants (documented and undocumented, little- and big-endian) that it was a real PITA to read one from another program or platform. PNG is uniform across implementations. >>Now that PNG is in all still-maintained graphics programs and web >>browsers, there is no reason to use GIF at all moving forward. > > Really? Who did that survey of graphics programs, where did you find Web browsers (IE, Mozilla, Opera), graphics manipulation (The Gimp, Photoshop, others), OSS image libraries (ImageMagick, others). > It is not a direct application of Occam's Razor, no. But it is > similar, in that it is a suggestion to use the less complicated over > the more complicated when either will do. ...unless the less complicated can't do the task at all (like going beyond 256 paletted colors). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jan 31 01:05:21 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:05:21 -0600 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: <003601c62622$e9c9fc30$72781941@game> References: <003601c62622$e9c9fc30$72781941@game> Message-ID: <43DF0C31.8010302@oldskool.org> Teo Zenios wrote: > earlier. For instance 16MB 30 pin SIMMs were fairly cheap at some point but > I never stocked up on them, now I have all these older Macs and add-on cards > that can use them but they are hard to come by cheap. They are? Geez, I must have at least a hundred around here. Do they actually *sell* at higher prices than a buck-a-stick? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jan 31 01:10:11 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:10:11 -0600 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: <43DF0B2E.7030303@oldskool.org> References: <200601300303.WAA21446@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43DD9BE4.5030707@oldskool.org> <200601300623.BAA03447@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43DF0B2E.7030303@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43DF0D53.3020001@oldskool.org> Crap, I mis-spoke: Jim Leonard wrote: > figured out you don't need to transmit the dictionary in LZ78, but S&S > figured out at the same time that LZ78 can be made more efficient than > LZ77 if you flag literals with bits (LZSS) instead of trying to encode I got switched around up there. This was supposed to read "S&S figured out that **LZ77** can be made more efficient than **LZ78** if you flag literals using bits..." In other words, what PNG uses (gzip, which is pkzip variant, which is LZSS variant+entropy encoding, which is LZ77 variant) compresses smaller (and decompresses faster) than GIF (LZW, an LZ78 variant). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue Jan 31 01:33:47 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:33:47 -0800 Subject: way OT: IITRAN and SPANTRAN In-Reply-To: <200601301005040537.43322E99@10.0.0.252> References: <43DDCC08.9090706@mindspring.com> <200601301005040537.43322E99@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43DF12DB.3030600@mindspring.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/30/2006 at 12:19 AM Don North wrote: > > >> And once I learned Perl I stopped writing in any other language ... >> except macro-11 that is . >> > > Not to seem too flip, but the next time I need a Windows device driver, I > should write it in Perl? > Of course not. It should be written in blood with calls to sweat routines as necessary... :-) Who would write Windows device drivers of their own free will anyway :-) :-) > >> I first learned to program in high school in IITRAN running RJE paper >> tapes via an ASR33 to the IIT Univac 1108... >> > > I blame IITRAN for getting me interested in computer programming. I was an > undergrad in physics at IIT getting very bored, when I looked over the > shoulder of a classmate during a lecture and later asked him what I was > doing. I borrowed the text and finished it in an evening--that Monday I > caged a job card and wrote my own program to run on the (bright and shiny > new) 360/40. I enrolled in an introductory FORTRAN course and used it to > teach myself 360 Assembler and work my way through a supervisor dump. I > got to be persona non grata in the very small IIT computer center, but hey, > it was the 60's. There was really no program of computer study then, so > transfered to Purdue (at the expense my scholarship). My parents were > furious--my father told me that working with computers was a low-grade > clerical job that no one in his right mind would give up a career in > Physics for. Oddly, I realize that if I had a child making the same > career decision today, I'd have the same problem as my father. > > I found my old SPANTRAN program listing (SPANish iiTRAN) and scanned it. Here it is at: http://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/spantran.pdf I tried OCR but it just could not grok it correctly. The listing is circa 1970 or so from an ASR33. From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Tue Jan 31 01:45:36 2006 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:45:36 -0800 Subject: one way to do a benchmark In-Reply-To: <200601310637.WAA20074@floodgap.com> References: <200601310637.WAA20074@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 1/30/06, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > http://www.geekpatrol.ca/article/101/geekbench-comparison > > Scroll down to "More Integer Performance." Presented without further > comment. I didn't find "more integer performance" in the article, but rather "integer performance". The test was written with a specific cache size in mind, so would work as long as that condition was met, and suck if it was not. Memory tests are not useful comparing the two systems, as well because of the intel need to address memory w/o regard to whether references are word aligned or not in the intel architechure. tests can be made to show the Intel shines with it's capabilities as well. I'm not sure what is being shown with a geek benchmark on this page. I don't see anything very useful in it. From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jan 31 01:52:01 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 02:52:01 -0500 Subject: one way to do a benchmark In-Reply-To: References: <200601310637.WAA20074@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200601310252.01656.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 31 January 2006 02:45, jim stephens wrote: > On 1/30/06, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > http://www.geekpatrol.ca/article/101/geekbench-comparison > > > > Scroll down to "More Integer Performance." Presented without further > > comment. > > I didn't find "more integer performance" in the article, but rather > "integer performance". Then you didn't read very carefully. Copied from the article: > More Integer Performance > > For another measure of integer performance, Geekbench executes code for the > MOS Technology 6502 CPU in a virtual CPU. This test is single threaded, and > results are in megahertz. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Jan 31 03:05:31 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:05:31 -0800 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: <43DF0C31.8010302@oldskool.org> References: <003601c62622$e9c9fc30$72781941@game> <43DF0C31.8010302@oldskool.org> Message-ID: After the Tektronix Auction in 1992 we had piles of Tek 22 & 32 calculators, 8001 development systems, 4051 & 4052 computers, 4010 terminals. In 1993 we got in about 10 Xerox 8010 Stars, an Alto, a Magnolia and a Lilith from Intel in Oregon, along with a truckload of intel development systems l, ll, lll and lV and associated drives, prom burners, emulators and paper tape stuff. Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jan 31 04:24:47 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:24:47 +0000 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: <003601c62622$e9c9fc30$72781941@game> References: <003601c62622$e9c9fc30$72781941@game> Message-ID: <43DF3AEF.9060008@yahoo.co.uk> Teo Zenios wrote: > Everybody probably has stories on passing up items that ended up being worth > money on ebay later on. I was thinking more of things you ended up wanting > for your own collection later on, but passed up when it was easy to find > earlier. For instance 16MB 30 pin SIMMs were fairly cheap at some point but > I never stocked up on them, now I have all these older Macs and add-on cards > that can use them but they are hard to come by cheap. Hmm, no problem around here finding 30 pin SIMMs - there seems to still be a lot of Mac / PC hardware from that era still around which used them (but curiously early Pentium-class PC's are hard to find) What annoys me is passing up equipment when I *do* realise the historical importance of it, but just don't have the space to store it or the money to move it :-( cheers Jules From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jan 31 05:22:53 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:22:53 +0000 Subject: You Won eBay Item: DEC RL1 Diagnostics on RL-01 disk cartridge In-Reply-To: <43DEDD54.80402@compsys.to> References: <200601302317.k0UNH3dS027420@onyx.spiritone.com> <43DEDD54.80402@compsys.to> Message-ID: <43DF488D.5010604@gjcp.net> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > (b) File to Device OR Device to File > COPY/DEVICE/FILES DVA: DEV:FOOBAR.DSK > COPY/DEVICE/FILES DEV:FOOBAR.DSK DVB: > options include ??? - I can't remember since I have never > used them in this mode Pretty sure that's what I used to copy a pack to a file. Experiment in simh first. Gordon. From cmurray at eagle.ca Tue Jan 31 05:41:27 2006 From: cmurray at eagle.ca (Cmurray) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 6:41:27 -0500 Subject: ColecoVision on Ebay! Message-ID: <200601311141.k0VBfRtb089443@inferno.eagle.ca> Has anyone seen this incredulous bid on Ebay! Yikes! Late bidding is 'strange' though. Murray-- http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8254051289&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jan 31 06:59:06 2006 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:59:06 -0000 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: <43DF3AEF.9060008@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <000301c62666$1e4a18d0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> > Hmm, no problem around here finding 30 pin SIMMs ... 256K and 1M 30-pin Simms always were fairly easy to come by; 4M ones if you searched hard; but 16M ones (as mentioned by the orinal message) have always been like hens teeth - and I could have done with a couple for my sound card :-( Andy From lee at geekdot.com Tue Jan 31 07:47:28 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (lee at geekdot.com) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:47:28 +0100 (CET) Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them Message-ID: <3478.86.139.194.172.1138715248.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > 256K and 1M 30-pin Simms always were fairly easy to come by; > 4M ones if you searched hard; Same here, I've a box full of 256K and 1M and a few 4M. > but 16M ones (as mentioned by the orinal message) have always > been like hens teeth - and I could have done with a couple for > my sound card :-( I've got a pair of 68020 VME cards that really could use four 16M 30 pin SIMMs each but I've never even seen any. I wonder how hard it would be to transplant a more modern DRAM chip onto an old SIMM? Lee. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 31 08:57:16 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:57:16 -0600 Subject: one way to do a benchmark In-Reply-To: <200601310252.01656.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200601310637.WAA20074@floodgap.com> <200601310252.01656.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060131085513.055264a8@mail> At 01:52 AM 1/31/2006, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >Then you didn't read very carefully. Copied from the article: > >> More Integer Performance >> >> For another measure of integer performance, Geekbench executes code for the >> MOS Technology 6502 CPU in a virtual CPU. This test is single threaded, and >> results are in megahertz. And the graph shows that the processors in question (a selection of contemporary Macs plus Intel and AMD for good measure) are able to emulate the 6502 at virtual speeds of 100 to 400 Mhz. - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 31 09:21:49 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:21:49 +0000 Subject: TU-58 connection to 11/03? In-Reply-To: References: <20060130225559.BCF42197C8F@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 1/30/06, Richard wrote: > Vince Slyngstad just pointed out to me that there's a TU-58 (DECtape) > emulator that runs on a PC and can be used to transfer data in/out of > a PDP-11 to a modern PC. > > Supposedly this is just connecting the PC to a serial port. However, > on my PDP-11/03, I only know about the serial ports for the console > and line printer options. Where is the serial port for the TU-58? If you have a DLV11-J on your 11/03, the 11/03 goes on the highest numbered port. If all you have are DL11-Es, you have to re-strap it to appear at the right CSR for the TU58 driver to see it where it expects. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 08:52:31 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 07:52:31 -0700 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:05:31 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Paxton Hoag writes: > After the Tektronix Auction in 1992 we had piles of Tek 22 & 32 > calculators, 8001 development systems, 4051 & 4052 computers, 4010 > terminals. Dang.... I didn't even know about the auction in 92! :-) Presumably it was in Beaverton? I lucked out in finding a 4010 and a 4014; would love to get a 4051/4052 since they can be programmed standalone. I have people occasionally asking me to sell my 4010, but it took a good 6 years to find one, so there is no way I'm going to sell it :-). > In 1993 we got in about 10 Xerox 8010 Stars, an Alto, a Magnolia and a > Lilith from Intel in Oregon, along with a truckload of intel > development systems l, ll, lll and lV and associated drives, prom > burners, emulators and paper tape stuff. Ooh! A Lilith. I lucked out and have 4 main units, but I need docs, and information on hooking up keyboards, mice and monitors. I think the monitors are special for the Lilith. What did you get besides the main unit? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jan 31 09:54:32 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:54:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: PLATO system / CDC mainframe / PLATO terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601311607.LAA22786@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Any other PLATO users out there? I was on udel's system in the > 1978-1986 time frame, off and on, although PLATO wasn't the primary > focus of my activities. I used PLATO in the late '70s at the University of Colorado (Colorado Springs branch) - they had a couple of terminals which were connected to a machine somewhere farther north; my memory waffles on whether it was at Urbana-Champaign or Minneapolis/St-Paul. I feel very nostalgic about it. I'd like to find a live PLATO community. (cyber1.org is out because they demand agreeing to foreign legal jurisdiction, and worse, the jurisdiction they demand is in the USA, one of the most unreasonably litigous places on the planet.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 31 10:15:08 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:15:08 -0800 Subject: ColecoVision on Ebay! In-Reply-To: <200601311141.k0VBfRtb089443@inferno.eagle.ca> References: <200601311141.k0VBfRtb089443@inferno.eagle.ca> Message-ID: <200601310815080751.47F3E310@10.0.0.252> Look at the bidding history--I wonder if the thing will be relisted. Cheers, Chuck On 1/31/2006 at 6:41 AM Cmurray wrote: >Has anyone seen this incredulous bid on Ebay! Yikes! Late bidding is >'strange' though. > >Murray-- > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8254051289&rd=1&sspagena me=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jan 31 10:09:29 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:09:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: <43DF0B2E.7030303@oldskool.org> References: <200601300303.WAA21446@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43DD9BE4.5030707@oldskool.org> <200601300623.BAA03447@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43DF0B2E.7030303@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200601311617.LAA22866@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...] but the simple answer is that the compression scheme used by > PNG compresses smaller and decompresses faster than what GIF uses. I never claimed otherwise. I merely pointed out it is a great deal more complicated. >>> - Color depths *above* 8-bit (ie. 24-bit color) >>> - Alpha channel (256 levels of transparancy) >> Neither of these appeared to matter from what I could see. If >> either is necessary, PNG may indeed be called for. > The alpha channel is barely used, but the ability to have a picture > with more than 256 colors is most certainly used. Is it? I thought the discussion was talking about colour line-art. In scanning, line-art means 1bpp, at least in my experience; I read "colour line-art" as implying 1bpp per primary, giving an absolute maximum of 8 different colours, well within GIF's range. >>> Now that PNG is in all still-maintained graphics programs and web >>> browsers, there is no reason to use GIF at all moving forward. >> Really? Who did that survey of graphics programs, where did you >> find [it, and how did it miss mine?] > Web browsers (IE, Mozilla, Opera), graphics manipulation (The Gimp, > Photoshop, others), OSS image libraries (ImageMagick, others). This is not an answer to any of my questions. It sounds as though you actually mean something more like "PNG is in all graphics programs I think are important enough to be worth caring about" or maybe even "PNG is in all graphics programs I felt like bothering looking at". While there's nothing wrong with either, per se, it would probably be good to say what you mean. PNG most certainly is not in all still-maintained graphics programs. For example, I have an image displayer in live use (which I'm still maintaining) which supports nothing but pbm/pgm/ppm. >> It is not a direct application of Occam's Razor, no. But it is >> similar, in that it is a suggestion to use the less complicated over >> the more complicated when either will do. > ...unless the less complicated can't do the task at all (like going > beyond 256 paletted colors). Yes, of course. What did *you* think "when either will do" meant? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 31 10:37:17 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:37:17 -0800 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: <000301c62666$1e4a18d0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> References: <000301c62666$1e4a18d0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: At 12:59 PM +0000 1/31/06, Andy Holt wrote: > > Hmm, no problem around here finding 30 pin SIMMs ... >256K and 1M 30-pin Simms always were fairly easy to come by; >4M ones if you searched hard; >but 16M ones (as mentioned by the orinal message) have always >been like hens teeth - and I could have done with a couple for >my sound card :-( > >Andy I still have the 4 4M 30-pin SIMM's that I spent $600 on while in the Navy. If you want to talk about SIMM's that are rare as hens teeth, how about the 128M 72-pin SIMM's? I managed to get ahold of either 2 or 4 of them for my one AlphaStation 200 4/233. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 31 10:42:12 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:42:12 -0800 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: <004201c6260a$0e716a00$72781941@game> References: <004201c6260a$0e716a00$72781941@game> Message-ID: At 9:00 PM -0500 1/30/06, Teo Zenios wrote: >I was wondering have you guys ever seen piles of computer equipment that was >dirt cheap but you didn't bother grabbing at the time only to see them >become rare and desired later on? Not really computer equipment, but the item that most comes to mind would be the "Strikers 1945" MVS Cartridge for the Neo Geo arcades. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From kth at srv.net Tue Jan 31 11:16:01 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:16:01 -0700 Subject: You Won eBay Item: DEC RL1 Diagnostics on RL-01 disk cartridge In-Reply-To: <200601302317.k0UNH3dS027420@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200601302317.k0UNH3dS027420@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <43DF9B51.3020103@srv.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: >Ouch. With that selection of hardware, I'm honestly not sure how you would >go about doing this. Jerome might be able to offer some advice. > > > Brain freeze. What is the name of the program that allows you to download disk images to a real 11 through the serial port? Doesn't it also go the other direction? From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jan 31 11:16:33 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:16:33 -0600 Subject: 30-pin SIMMs Re: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: <000301c62666$1e4a18d0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> References: <000301c62666$1e4a18d0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: <43DF9B71.7020807@mdrconsult.com> Andy Holt wrote: >>Hmm, no problem around here finding 30 pin SIMMs ... > > 256K and 1M 30-pin Simms always were fairly easy to come by; > 4M ones if you searched hard; > but 16M ones (as mentioned by the orinal message) have always > been like hens teeth - and I could have done with a couple for > my sound card :-( Shameless plug: MC Howard, in Austin Texas. $25 +S&H for a set of 4 non-parity 60ns 16MB SIMMs. They have an 800 number, they ship internationally, and - the big deal to me - one of the few places I know where you'll find a soldering tool, PROM burner, and a whole wall of databooks in back. They're also really nice people. :) They usually have a couple sets on eBay: http://stores.ebay.com/M-C-Howard-Electronics-Inc Their site: http://www.mchoward.com/ Pay no attention to the prices listed online; just call and ask. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 31 11:20:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:20:34 -0800 Subject: PLATO system / CDC mainframe / PLATO terminals In-Reply-To: <200601311607.LAA22786@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200601311607.LAA22786@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200601310920340196.482FC8D5@10.0.0.252> On 1/31/2006 at 10:54 AM der Mouse wrote: >I feel very nostalgic about it. I'd like to find a live PLATO >community. (cyber1.org is out because they demand agreeing to foreign >legal jurisdiction, and worse, the jurisdiction they demand is in the >USA, one of the most unreasonably litigous places on the planet.) Well, it's kind of fitting--CDC was probably the most litigious of the seven dwarves. :) --Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jan 31 11:22:38 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:22:38 -0600 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: References: <000301c62666$1e4a18d0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: <43DF9CDE.8020108@mdrconsult.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 12:59 PM +0000 1/31/06, Andy Holt wrote: > >> > Hmm, no problem around here finding 30 pin SIMMs ... >> 256K and 1M 30-pin Simms always were fairly easy to come by; >> 4M ones if you searched hard; >> but 16M ones (as mentioned by the orinal message) have always >> been like hens teeth - and I could have done with a couple for >> my sound card :-( >> >> Andy > > > I still have the 4 4M 30-pin SIMM's that I spent $600 on while in the Navy. > > If you want to talk about SIMM's that are rare as hens teeth, how about > the 128M 72-pin SIMM's? I managed to get ahold of either 2 or 4 of them > for my one AlphaStation 200 4/233. I have one! (yes, a single) Paid something like $8 and shipping because apparently neither the seller nor anybody else bothered to read the label pictured in the eBay listing. :) It's in the only box I own that can read a single 128MB SIMM - an A3000 with '060 accelerator. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jan 31 11:25:18 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:25:18 -0600 Subject: You Won eBay Item: DEC RL1 Diagnostics on RL-01 disk cartridge In-Reply-To: <43DF9B51.3020103@srv.net> References: <200601302317.k0UNH3dS027420@onyx.spiritone.com> <43DF9B51.3020103@srv.net> Message-ID: <43DF9D7E.2070904@mdrconsult.com> Kevin Handy wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Ouch. With that selection of hardware, I'm honestly not sure how you >> would >> go about doing this. Jerome might be able to offer some advice. >> >> > Brain freeze. What is the name of the program that allows > you to download disk images to a real 11 through the serial > port? Doesn't it also go the other direction? VTserver, which project seems to have fallen off the face of the earth. Anybody have the beta source to v3? Is Fred in jail somewhere? Doc From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 11:26:35 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:26:35 -0700 Subject: PLATO system / CDC mainframe / PLATO terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:54:32 -0500. <200601311607.LAA22786@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: In article <200601311607.LAA22786 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, der Mouse writes: > I used PLATO in the late '70s at the University of Colorado (Colorado > Springs branch) - they had a couple of terminals which were connected > to a machine somewhere farther north; my memory waffles on whether it > was at Urbana-Champaign or Minneapolis/St-Paul. Probably was at the Shampoo Banana campus :-). > I feel very nostalgic about it. I'd like to find a live PLATO > community. (cyber1.org is out because they demand agreeing to foreign > legal jurisdiction, and worse, the jurisdiction they demand is in the > USA, one of the most unreasonably litigous places on the planet.) Dude. You *so* need to read some H.L. Mencken if you haven't already! :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 11:38:23 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:38:23 -0700 Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles (was: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:37:17 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > I still have the 4 4M 30-pin SIMM's that I spent $600 on while in the Navy. > > If you want to talk about SIMM's that are rare as hens teeth, how > about the 128M 72-pin SIMM's? I managed to get ahold of either 2 or > 4 of them for my one AlphaStation 200 4/233. This morning I wondered if it wouldn't be possible to reuse older smaller density memory modules like SIMMs by creating a carrier card that held multiple smaller density modules On most machines I've seen, there's enough physical clearance for something larger than a SIMM so you could create a carrier that held 4 32 MB SIMMs so that you could have something that the machine would think was a 128 MB SIMM. It would look god awful ugly, but would do the job! In fact, I've got these IBM 300XL units piling up in my basement from the work purge that could use such a technique to get a few beefy ones cannibalized from the pile. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 11:43:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:43:43 -0700 Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles (was: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:38:23 -0700. Message-ID: As usual... come up with an idea and someone else has already done it! :-) (Which is good in this case as I don't want to design, test and build these things) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 11:27:15 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:27:15 -0700 Subject: ColecoVision on Ebay! In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Jan 2006 08:15:08 -0800. <200601310815080751.47F3E310@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200601310815080751.47F3E310 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Look at the bidding history--I wonder if the thing will be relisted. Yeah, the one bidder has apparently had their account struck, yet they forced the price up way high. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 11:32:32 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:32:32 -0700 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:09:29 -0500. <200601311617.LAA22866@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: In article <200601311617.LAA22866 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, der Mouse writes: > Is it? I thought the discussion was talking about colour line-art. In > scanning, line-art means 1bpp, at least in my experience; Only if you like your line art to be highly aliased! I've found that 8bpp grayscale does wonders for line art, unless you're lucky enough to have line art that is entirely at multiples of 45 degrees and you're also lucky enough to get the scanning grid to line up exactly with the orientation of the line art and you're lucky enough that your original doesn't have any stretch or creep in the way the line art was originally printed (or if you have a photocopy of an original the copy machine didn't introduce any stretching or other distortion). > I read > "colour line-art" as implying 1bpp per primary, giving an absolute > maximum of 8 different colours, well within GIF's range. Again, I'd say this is an extremely simplistic way of looking at line art. > PNG most certainly is not in all still-maintained graphics programs. > For example, I have an image displayer in live use (which I'm still > maintaining) which supports nothing but pbm/pgm/ppm. Yeah, but pngtopnm has been around for almost as long as png ;-). Also, your image viewer doesn't support GIF either, so :-P. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jan 31 11:47:23 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:47:23 -0500 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them References: <000301c62666$1e4a18d0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <43DF9CDE.8020108@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <003a01c6268e$647c0a20$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 12:22 PM Subject: Re: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them > I have one! (yes, a single) Paid something like $8 and shipping > because apparently neither the seller nor anybody else bothered to read > the label pictured in the eBay listing. :) > > It's in the only box I own that can read a single 128MB SIMM - an > A3000 with '060 accelerator. > > > Doc I know somebody who purchased 8 matching 128MB 72 pin SIMMs on ebay dirt cheap, ofcourse I don't think they worked on any machine he currently has. The only machine I have that can use that type of SIMM would be my Amiga 1200 with a Blizzard 68030/50 CPU add-on. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 11:49:56 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:49:56 -0700 Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles (was: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:38:23 -0700. Message-ID: and another one I'm including these links as I find them as they are rather scattered about and not necessarily easy to locate. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jan 31 11:49:54 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:49:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles (was: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601311751.MAA23721@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > This morning I wondered if it wouldn't be possible to reuse older > smaller density memory modules like SIMMs by creating a carrier card > that held multiple smaller density modules It is. I own some three or four cards which have four 30-pin SIMM sockets and are designed to plug into a 72-pin socket. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Jan 31 11:59:46 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:59:46 -0500 Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles (was: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601311259.46406.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 31 January 2006 12:38 pm, Richard wrote: > In article , > > "Zane H. Healy" writes: > > I still have the 4 4M 30-pin SIMM's that I spent $600 on while in the > > Navy. > > > > If you want to talk about SIMM's that are rare as hens teeth, how > > about the 128M 72-pin SIMM's? I managed to get ahold of either 2 or > > 4 of them for my one AlphaStation 200 4/233. > > This morning I wondered if it wouldn't be possible to reuse older > smaller density memory modules like SIMMs by creating a carrier card > that held multiple smaller density modules On most machines I've > seen, there's enough physical clearance for something larger than a > SIMM so you could create a carrier that held 4 32 MB SIMMs so that you > could have something that the machine would think was a 128 MB SIMM. > It would look god awful ugly, but would do the job! In fact, I've got > these IBM 300XL units piling up in my basement from the work purge > that could use such a technique to get a few beefy ones cannibalized > from the pile. I know I've seen such things, in a store that's now long gone, where they were designed to let you re-use your memory in the process of upgrading. If my recollection is correct you could take 4 30-pin parts and stack them up to put into a 72-pin socket... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jan 31 12:05:46 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:05:46 -0500 Subject: You Won eBay Item: DEC RL1 Diagnostics on RL-01 disk cartridge In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:25:18 CST." <43DF9D7E.2070904@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200601311805.k0VI5kEO004577@mwave.heeltoe.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > > VTserver, which project seems to have fallen off the face of the earth. I've been using it with linux and an 11/34. I've made a few mods which I'm happy to share if anyone wants them. I've also been happily using the tu58 emulator (both sides) with linux. I should put them up on my web site. -brad From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 31 12:13:35 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:13:35 -0800 Subject: way OT: IITRAN and SPANTRAN In-Reply-To: <43DF12DB.3030600@mindspring.com> References: <43DDCC08.9090706@mindspring.com> <200601301005040537.43322E99@10.0.0.252> <43DF12DB.3030600@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <200601311013350280.486052F1@10.0.0.252> On 1/30/2006 at 11:33 PM Don North wrote: >Who would write Windows device drivers of their own free will anyway :-) Actually, once you get the hang of it, it's not too bad--and probably no worse than writing *nix drivers. Probably the toughest parts are the power management and plug-n-pray routines. Some things, like floppy drivers, are actually a driver-within-a-driver; i.e., an outer task that dispatches requests to an inner thread for processing. Microsoft has done a pretty decent job of abstracting a lot of the more common hardware components. Yeah, I know--heresy. But the best part of NT/2K/XP is the kernel. It's all that other stuff that I don't like. IMOHO, the earlier (NT 3.5 and 4) kernels were probably the best (when M$ still had to think about non x86 architectures). Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 12:01:20 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:01:20 -0700 Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles (was: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:49:54 -0500. <200601311751.MAA23721@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: In article <200601311751.MAA23721 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, der Mouse writes: > It is. I own some three or four cards which have four 30-pin SIMM > sockets and are designed to plug into a 72-pin socket. As I look at these, I notice that they're all adapters as opposed to something that gangs up multiple SIMMs to create a higher capacity "SIMM". Anyone seen anything like that? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jan 31 12:15:02 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:15:02 -0600 Subject: You Won eBay Item: DEC RL1 Diagnostics on RL-01 disk cartridge In-Reply-To: <200601311805.k0VI5kEO004577@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200601311805.k0VI5kEO004577@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <43DFA926.1060803@mdrconsult.com> Brad Parker wrote: > Doc Shipley wrote: > >> VTserver, which project seems to have fallen off the face of the earth. > > > I've been using it with linux and an 11/34. I've made a few mods which > I'm happy to share if anyone wants them. > > I've also been happily using the tu58 emulator (both sides) with linux. > > I should put them up on my web site. Pretty-please! There were several planned improvements in VTserver v3 that I really wanted, although now I can't remember what. Although we ought to point out that the v2.x that's available on TUHS is Not Too Shabby either. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jan 31 12:17:16 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:17:16 -0600 Subject: TU-58 connection to 11/03? In-Reply-To: References: <20060130225559.BCF42197C8F@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <43DFA9AC.8060606@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 1/30/06, Richard wrote: > >>Vince Slyngstad just pointed out to me that there's a TU-58 (DECtape) >>emulator that runs on a PC and can be used to transfer data in/out of >>a PDP-11 to a modern PC. >> >>Supposedly this is just connecting the PC to a serial port. However, >>on my PDP-11/03, I only know about the serial ports for the console >>and line printer options. Where is the serial port for the TU-58? > > > If you have a DLV11-J on your 11/03, the 11/03 goes on the highest > numbered port. If all you have are DL11-Es, you have to re-strap it > to appear at the right CSR for the TU58 driver to see it where it > expects. Is this a typo? "the 11/03 goes on the highest numbered port" or "the TU-58 goes on the highest port"? My 11/03 wants to know. :) Doc From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jan 31 12:12:45 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:12:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601311818.NAA23986@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Is it? I thought the discussion was talking about colour line-art. >> In scanning, line-art means 1bpp, at least in my experience; > Only if you like your line art to be highly aliased! I mean that, in a scanning context, if you see a "line art" setting, it normally produces a 1bpp result. When the art in question is something like a woodcut or an ink sketch - which is what I suspect the line-art settings are more designed for - aliasing is not a problem in the same way that it is for something that, like an electronic schematic, is full of lines that really ought to be aligned with the pixel grid's axes. >> PNG most certainly is not in all still-maintained graphics programs. >> For example, I have an image displayer in live use (which I'm still >> maintaining) which supports nothing but pbm/pgm/ppm. > Yeah, but pngtopnm has been around for almost as long as png ;-). giftopnm has been around even longer. :-) > Also, your image viewer doesn't support GIF either, so :-P. No, it doesn't - but I wasn't claiming GIF support in "all still-maintained graphics programs", either. (:-? back atcha. :) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jan 31 12:19:28 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:19:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles (was: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601311820.NAA24018@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> It is. I own some three or four cards which have four 30-pin SIMM >> sockets and are designed to plug into a 72-pin socket. > As I look at these, I notice that they're all adapters as opposed to > something that gangs up multiple SIMMs to create a higher capacity > "SIMM". Anyone seen anything like that? Um, that's exactly what mine do, unless I'm misunderstanding you. For example, you can plug four 1M 30-pin SIMMs into one and you get a 4M 72-pin "SIMM". /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Jan 31 12:30:13 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:30:13 +0100 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43DFACB5.4000904@bluewin.ch> > Ooh! A Lilith. I lucked out and have 4 main units, but I need docs, > and information on hooking up keyboards, mice and monitors. I think > the monitors are special for the Lilith. What did you get besides the > main unit? Richard, yours are Eves, the followup on the Lilith. Keyboard, mice and monitors are indeed special to the Lilith. The keyboard has a serial, straight ASCII output and goes to the monitor. In the monitor is a serial to parallel convertor and the keyboard data then goes in parallel to the main unit ! The mouse is a 3 key straight quadrature output thingie. The (external) floppy is very particular: it has an Apple II floppy controller card, a small 6502 motherboard in which the apple floppy unit plugs and a serial connection . The backplane has a 200 contact connector, the force required to insert PCB is incredible. My Lilih is once again playing up, I will have to bite the bullet and draw the schematics. Cheap IC sockets might play a role, but substituting a few hundred of them is also a PITA. Jos From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jan 31 12:33:45 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 18:33:45 +0000 Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles In-Reply-To: <200601311259.46406.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200601311259.46406.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <43DFAD89.8080500@yahoo.co.uk> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> This morning I wondered if it wouldn't be possible to reuse older >> smaller density memory modules like SIMMs by creating a carrier card >> that held multiple smaller density modules On most machines I've >> seen, there's enough physical clearance for something larger than a >> SIMM so you could create a carrier that held 4 32 MB SIMMs so that you >> could have something that the machine would think was a 128 MB SIMM. >> It would look god awful ugly, but would do the job! In fact, I've got >> these IBM 300XL units piling up in my basement from the work purge >> that could use such a technique to get a few beefy ones cannibalized >> from the pile. > > I know I've seen such things, in a store that's now long gone, where they > were designed to let you re-use your memory in the process of upgrading. If > my recollection is correct you could take 4 30-pin parts and stack them up to > put into a 72-pin socket... Subject to physical clearance and airflow problems of course! I seem to recall at the point where I changed from a PC motherboard which took 30 pin SIMMS to one which used 72 pin, there was still a healthy used component market - so I ended up selling the old memory with the old motherboard and just bought new memory. cheers J. From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Tue Jan 31 12:42:52 2006 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:42:52 -0800 Subject: one way to do a benchmark In-Reply-To: <200601310252.01656.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200601310637.WAA20074@floodgap.com> <200601310252.01656.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > > Then you didn't read very carefully. Copied from the article: > > > More Integer Performance I had copied it from the google mail article into a find box, and then clicked thru the link. It didnt find it. On my box this label is on the "fold" and I did not spot it. Also I have seen similar performance with a Microdata 1600 emulator that I have, though I do not have a comparison. It is amazing what the current generation of processors can do when emulating older technologies. Any ideas why the 8/16 bit 6502 runs so much faster on Intel, when the Hercules 370 (which is 8/16/32) and 390 runs much faster on power / Mac than on Windows? I am only talking instruction execution here, not I/O. Also from his note on the G4 vs G5 comparison, would the exact same executable run on both processors under whatever Mac OS 10 you have, so would that maybe explain the G4 being faster than the G5? Jim From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 31 12:44:35 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:44:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles (was: Common items you passed up In-Reply-To: <200601311751.MAA23721@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jan 31, 2006 12:49:54 PM Message-ID: <200601311844.k0VIiZwE009440@onyx.spiritone.com> > > This morning I wondered if it wouldn't be possible to reuse older > > smaller density memory modules like SIMMs by creating a carrier card > > that held multiple smaller density modules > > It is. I own some three or four cards which have four 30-pin SIMM > sockets and are designed to plug into a 72-pin socket. Then there is the adapter that I have in my Amiga 3000, it plugged in where the ZIP Chips would go, and let me use standard 72-pin SIMM's (at least I think they're 72-pin, might be 30-pin). It was cheaper than trying to get 16MB of ZIP Chips. Of course I really wish I had the Zorro 3 board a coworker bought about the same time, it lets him put 128MB in his Amiga 3000 (except as far as I know, it's still sitting new in the box). Zane From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 12:45:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:45:43 -0700 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:12:45 -0500. <200601311818.NAA23986@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: In article <200601311818.NAA23986 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, der Mouse writes: > >> Is it? I thought the discussion was talking about colour line-art. > >> In scanning, line-art means 1bpp, at least in my experience; > > Only if you like your line art to be highly aliased! > > I mean that, in a scanning context, if you see a "line art" setting, it > normally produces a 1bpp result. Yeah. Most front end stupid user software for scanners produces the shittiest results, IMO. I always end up scanning at high res, down filtering in software and then quantizing and the scanner software always wants to do stupid things to *help* me. The HP scanner front end was absolutely atrocious; the builtin scanner wizard in WinXP made me more productive! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 12:47:17 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:47:17 -0700 Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles (was: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:19:28 -0500. <200601311820.NAA24018@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: In article <200601311820.NAA24018 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, der Mouse writes: > Um, that's exactly what mine do, unless I'm misunderstanding you. For > example, you can plug four 1M 30-pin SIMMs into one and you get a 4M > 72-pin "SIMM". No, that's an adapter because I can't take the whole shebang and plug it into a 30-pin SIMM. See what I mean? It adapts 30-pin SIMMS to 72-pin SIMMs. That's great if I'm moving from a 30-pin SIMM mobo to a 72-pin SIMM mobo, but what if I just want to cram more memory onto my 30-pin SIMM mobo and don't want to shell out $$$ for high density 30-pin SIMMs? (Yeah, I know there are issues with physical clearance on adjacent SIMM slots, let's just leave that aside for the moment.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Jan 31 12:49:44 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:49:44 -0500 Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles In-Reply-To: <43DFAD89.8080500@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200601311259.46406.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43DFAD89.8080500@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200601311349.44552.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 31 January 2006 01:33 pm, Jules Richardson wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> This morning I wondered if it wouldn't be possible to reuse older > >> smaller density memory modules like SIMMs by creating a carrier card > >> that held multiple smaller density modules On most machines I've > >> seen, there's enough physical clearance for something larger than a > >> SIMM so you could create a carrier that held 4 32 MB SIMMs so that you > >> could have something that the machine would think was a 128 MB SIMM. > >> It would look god awful ugly, but would do the job! In fact, I've got > >> these IBM 300XL units piling up in my basement from the work purge > >> that could use such a technique to get a few beefy ones cannibalized > >> from the pile. > > > > I know I've seen such things, in a store that's now long gone, where > > they were designed to let you re-use your memory in the process of > > upgrading. If my recollection is correct you could take 4 30-pin parts > > and stack them up to put into a 72-pin socket... > > Subject to physical clearance and airflow problems of course! Yes. Unlike the "front" and "back" models that were on the page Richard pointed to, the store in question had four kinds, two more factors being "tall" and "short" where the former would stick the SIMMs above the ones in the shorter adapter. I guess this was useful for those machines that had four sockets jammed real close together. I've no idea how any of these would work for stuff that used those sockets where they were laying down at an angle. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 12:55:06 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:55:06 -0700 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:30:13 +0100. <43DFACB5.4000904@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: In article <43DFACB5.4000904 at bluewin.ch>, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel writes: > > Ooh! A Lilith. I lucked out and have 4 main units, but I need docs, > > and information on hooking up keyboards, mice and monitors. I think > > the monitors are special for the Lilith. What did you get besides the > > main unit? > > > Richard, > > yours are Eves, the followup on the Lilith. Yes, I should have been more specific, my mistake :-). At least a couple of them are Eves, I am not 100% certain that all of them are Eves because I didn't do a board inventory on all the units. I have about 10-15 spare boards besides the 4 main units that I have, so if someone needs one for a board swap (shhhhhh don't tell Tony Duell :-) drop me an email. > Keyboard, mice and monitors are indeed special to the Lilith. > > The keyboard has a serial, straight ASCII output and goes to the > monitor. In the monitor is a serial to parallel convertor and the > keyboard data then goes in parallel to the main unit ! Holy shit, that's crazy! I thought it was a straight serial ASCII into the box. Well that puts the bamboozle on my idea of just hooking up a keyboard to it straight! I do have one monitor. I haven't tried to power it up, but written on the case is the word "DIM", presumably identifying a failure in the monitor somewhere. I've never repaired monitors, so I'm not sure what a dim image is suppose to indicate. Failing HV drive circuitry? > The mouse is a 3 key straight quadrature output thingie. Do you have any ideas on what kind of commercially available mice would be compatible? > The (external) floppy is very particular: it has an Apple II floppy > controller card, a small 6502 motherboard in which the apple floppy unit > plugs and a serial connection . Umm... mine don't have floppy drives :-). It looks like they have been fitted with SCSI interfaces, SCSI hard drives and Bernoulli Box removable cartridge drives. > The backplane has a 200 contact connector, the force required to insert > PCB is incredible. Yeah, I notice that when looking in the unit I have that is missing its power supply. > My Lilih is once again playing up, I will have to bite the bullet and > draw the schematics. Cheap IC sockets might play a role, but > substituting a few hundred of them is also a PITA. Woo hoo! Docs would be great as these machines came to me with no information, but plenty of hardware. I also have several complete sets of video, etc., cabling, so if someone needs cables give me a hollar. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 31 13:00:41 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:00:41 +0000 Subject: TU-58 connection to 11/03? In-Reply-To: <43DFA9AC.8060606@mdrconsult.com> References: <20060130225559.BCF42197C8F@bitsavers.org> <43DFA9AC.8060606@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On 1/31/06, Doc Shipley wrote: > > If you have a DLV11-J on your 11/03, the 11/03 goes on the highest > > numbered port. > > Is this a typo? Yes. > "the 11/03 goes on the highest numbered port" or "the TU-58 goes on > the highest port"? Now that I'm more awake and thinking about it, I'm not as certain which port is strapped by default for the TU-58 driver, but if the console is on port 0, then plug the TU-58 into 3. If the console is on 3, try port 1 or 2. -ethan From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jan 31 13:00:43 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:00:43 -0600 Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles In-Reply-To: <200601311844.k0VIiZwE009440@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200601311844.k0VIiZwE009440@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <43DFB3DB.6000903@mdrconsult.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Then there is the adapter that I have in my Amiga 3000, it plugged in where > the ZIP Chips would go, and let me use standard 72-pin SIMM's (at least I > think they're 72-pin, might be 30-pin). It was cheaper than trying to get > 16MB of ZIP Chips. I raided a bunch of MCA graphics adapters (XGA, maybe?) for the ZIPs on one of my RTG boards. Before anybody gets their trousers twisted, some nit had apparently used the MCA cards for solderi practice. I bought a half-dozen of them for a buck. > Of course I really wish I had the Zorro 3 board a coworker bought about the > same time, it lets him put 128MB in his Amiga 3000 (except as far as I know, > it's still sitting new in the box). Well, since he obviously has no concept of its worth, you should go steal it! Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jan 31 13:07:11 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:07:11 -0600 Subject: TU-58 connection to 11/03? In-Reply-To: References: <20060130225559.BCF42197C8F@bitsavers.org> <43DFA9AC.8060606@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <43DFB55F.5070007@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Now that I'm more awake and thinking about it, I'm not as certain > which port is strapped by default for the TU-58 driver, but if the > console is on port 0, then plug the TU-58 into 3. If the console is > on 3, try port 1 or 2. OK, cool. This matters a lot, because the second RX02 drive on my 11/03 is showing signs of alignment problems, and I really don't have the tools or the skills to fix it. Doc From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 13:12:29 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:12:29 -0700 Subject: TU-58 connection to 11/03? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:00:41 +0000. Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > Now that I'm more awake and thinking about it, I'm not as certain > which port is strapped by default for the TU-58 driver, but if the > console is on port 0, then plug the TU-58 into 3. If the console is > on 3, try port 1 or 2. I'll have to check the modules on my machine, but if I recall correctly it has the console module that has 1 serial port and the asynchronous SLU module for the printer. Is there another serial port lurking on the console module that I don't know about? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jan 31 13:14:12 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:14:12 -0500 Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles (was: Common items you passed up References: <200601311844.k0VIiZwE009440@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <00a501c6269a$85206670$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 1:44 PM Subject: Re: SIMMs and other memory dongles (was: Common items you passed up > > > This morning I wondered if it wouldn't be possible to reuse older > > > smaller density memory modules like SIMMs by creating a carrier card > > > that held multiple smaller density modules > > > > It is. I own some three or four cards which have four 30-pin SIMM > > sockets and are designed to plug into a 72-pin socket. > > Then there is the adapter that I have in my Amiga 3000, it plugged in where > the ZIP Chips would go, and let me use standard 72-pin SIMM's (at least I > think they're 72-pin, might be 30-pin). It was cheaper than trying to get > 16MB of ZIP Chips. > > Of course I really wish I had the Zorro 3 board a coworker bought about the > same time, it lets him put 128MB in his Amiga 3000 (except as far as I know, > it's still sitting new in the box). > > Zane From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jan 31 13:19:05 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:19:05 -0500 Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles (was: Common items you passed up References: <200601311844.k0VIiZwE009440@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <00ac01c6269b$33c7db40$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 1:44 PM Subject: Re: SIMMs and other memory dongles (was: Common items you passed up > Then there is the adapter that I have in my Amiga 3000, it plugged in where > the ZIP Chips would go, and let me use standard 72-pin SIMM's (at least I > think they're 72-pin, might be 30-pin). It was cheaper than trying to get > 16MB of ZIP Chips. > > Of course I really wish I had the Zorro 3 board a coworker bought about the > same time, it lets him put 128MB in his Amiga 3000 (except as far as I know, > it's still sitting new in the box). > > Zane I don't know what you would need 128MB of RAM in an Amiga for (unless you have a PPC upgrade and want to browse the web or something like that). My A2000 has a GVP 68030/40 that uses those weird 64Pin GVP memory SIMMS (I have 16MB on that card), they are about as hard to find as IIfx memory (64 pin but not GVP compatible). I have yet to run into GWorld memory used on some Mac Nubus video cards as a frame buffer cache, they are also 64 pin. Either very few companies produced 64 pin SIMMs or somebody have a warehouse full of them and does not know it. From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Tue Jan 31 13:22:10 2006 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:22:10 -0600 Subject: List of emulators and/or OSes available to hobbyists? Message-ID: <20060131192210.GA20742@RawFedDogs.net> Fellow RetroComputer enthusiasts, Hello, my name is Kevin, and I'm a RetroComputerHolic. Sadly my limited funds and limited space prevents me from collecting much in the way of hardware. My hardware collection is small. I have a VAXStation 3100/M76 running VMS, a TRS-80 Model IV, and a TI-99/4A. So, the majority of my RetroComputer fix comes from running the various emulators available to hobbyists. As I do occasionally I recently started combing the web in search of emulators and/or OSes available to hobbyists that I'm not already familiar with. I thought this list might have a few pointers to usefil information. I'm currently familiar with Hercules and SIMH emulators. In real life I work as a mainframe operator in a zOS shop and back in college I worked as a volunteer operator on a VAX 11/750 running VMS. So, MVS and VMS are the most familiar to me. But, I enjoy exploring unfamiliar OSes, even if I feel like a fish out of water trying to interact with them them. I have all the freely available IBM OSes, and the non-IBM Music/SP, available for Hercules. I've downloaded all the "Software Kits" listed on the SIMH website. I've joined the HP2000 Family mailing list and have downloaded the HP2000_E and HP2000_F OSes available from the links section of that list. Thanks to a recent e-mail to this list I've been checking out the dtcyber emulator also. So far the only OS I've found to run on the dtcyber emulator is the Chippewa OS. Are there any other OSes available to hobbyists available for the dtcyber emulator? Does anyone have any pointers to other emulators/OSes available to hobbyists? Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jan 31 13:23:31 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:23:31 -0600 Subject: RX02 emulator? Message-ID: <43DFB933.5020303@mdrconsult.com> Has anybody built and used Peter McCollum's Qbus RXV11 emulator? http://www.geocities.com/saipan59/dec/rxv11_emu.html I saw that somebody on CC is running the Unibus version, and it got me curious. Doc From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jan 31 13:27:21 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:27:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them Message-ID: <200601311927.LAA29559@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Richard" > > >In article <43DFACB5.4000904 at bluewin.ch>, > Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel writes: > >> > Ooh! A Lilith. I lucked out and have 4 main units, but I need docs, >> > and information on hooking up keyboards, mice and monitors. I think >> > the monitors are special for the Lilith. What did you get besides the >> > main unit? >> >> >> Richard, >> >> yours are Eves, the followup on the Lilith. > >Yes, I should have been more specific, my mistake :-). At least a >couple of them are Eves, I am not 100% certain that all of them are >Eves because I didn't do a board inventory on all the units. I have >about 10-15 spare boards besides the 4 main units that I have, so if >someone needs one for a board swap (shhhhhh don't tell Tony Duell :-) >drop me an email. > >> Keyboard, mice and monitors are indeed special to the Lilith. >> >> The keyboard has a serial, straight ASCII output and goes to the >> monitor. In the monitor is a serial to parallel convertor and the >> keyboard data then goes in parallel to the main unit ! > >Holy shit, that's crazy! I thought it was a straight serial ASCII >into the box. Well that puts the bamboozle on my idea of just hooking >up a keyboard to it straight! I do have one monitor. I haven't tried >to power it up, but written on the case is the word "DIM", presumably >identifying a failure in the monitor somewhere. I've never repaired >monitors, so I'm not sure what a dim image is suppose to indicate. >Failing HV drive circuitry? Hi HV would cause blooming of the image. Dim image is weak cathode in the tube or problems in the circuits controlling the cathode to gate voltage levels. Dwight > >> The mouse is a 3 key straight quadrature output thingie. > >Do you have any ideas on what kind of commercially available mice >would be compatible? > >> The (external) floppy is very particular: it has an Apple II floppy >> controller card, a small 6502 motherboard in which the apple floppy unit >> plugs and a serial connection . > >Umm... mine don't have floppy drives :-). It looks like they have >been fitted with SCSI interfaces, SCSI hard drives and Bernoulli Box >removable cartridge drives. > >> The backplane has a 200 contact connector, the force required to insert >> PCB is incredible. > >Yeah, I notice that when looking in the unit I have that is missing >its power supply. > >> My Lilih is once again playing up, I will have to bite the bullet and >> draw the schematics. Cheap IC sockets might play a role, but >> substituting a few hundred of them is also a PITA. > >Woo hoo! Docs would be great as these machines came to me with no >information, but plenty of hardware. I also have several complete >sets of video, etc., cabling, so if someone needs cables give me a >hollar. >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Jan 31 13:23:33 2006 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:23:33 -0500 Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles (was: Common items you passed upthat turned rare when you wanted them) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > It is. I own some three or four cards which have four 30-pin SIMM > > sockets and are designed to plug into a 72-pin socket. > > As I look at these, I notice that they're all adapters as opposed to > something that gangs up multiple SIMMs to create a higher capacity > "SIMM". Anyone seen anything like that? Yes, I have a few of those around somewhere... The SIMMs have to have the "right" geometry and/or the system has to be able to handle the resulting geometry. I seem to recall that they have locations on them for surface mount chips and switches (to allow the geometry to be adjusted) but they are unpopulated on the ones I have. From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Jan 31 13:45:58 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:45:58 -0500 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601311445.58666.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 31 January 2006 01:55 pm, Richard wrote: > I do have one monitor. I haven't tried to power it up, but written on the > case is the word "DIM", presumably identifying a failure in the monitor > somewhere. I've never repaired monitors, so I'm not sure what a dim image > is suppose to indicate. Failing HV drive circuitry? Power supply problems more likely than anything else. Maybe caused by weak capacitors, as those will age more than any other part. Other failure modes will all (mostly) cause an outright failure. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 31 13:54:28 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:54:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: List of emulators and/or OSes available to hobbyists? In-Reply-To: <20060131192210.GA20742@RawFedDogs.net> from "Kevin Monceaux" at Jan 31, 2006 01:22:10 PM Message-ID: <200601311954.k0VJsS0o011347@onyx.spiritone.com> > Does anyone have any pointers to other emulators/OSes available to > hobbyists? Well, for DEC related emulation I humbly recommend the following :^) http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/decemu.html I've also started the following webpage (and am looking for additional links). http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/bigironemu.html Zane From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jan 31 13:55:09 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:55:09 -0500 Subject: RX02 emulator? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:23:31 CST." <43DFB933.5020303@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200601311955.k0VJt9Sc014157@mwave.heeltoe.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > Has anybody built and used Peter McCollum's Qbus RXV11 emulator? > >http://www.geocities.com/saipan59/dec/rxv11_emu.html > > I saw that somebody on CC is running the Unibus version, and it got >me curious. I just got my unibus kit and planned to solder it up in the next few days. I want to try it on an 11/34a and an 11/44. If it worksl I plan to try the qbus version. Always nice to have another boot option. -brad From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 31 14:00:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:00:57 -0800 Subject: Quick FM capability test Message-ID: <200601311200570967.48C29F22@10.0.0.252> List - I needed a quick way to sort out which PC's had reliable FM/single density capability, so I put together a little utility (<14K), testsd.exe: http://www.sydex.com/download/testsd.exe No command line arguments; it searches for the first 1.44MB-capable 3.5" drive (usually A:) and prompts for a diskette insertion. After a keypress is given, cylinders 74-79 of the diskette are formatted in 2/16/256 single-density, written with a test pattern and read back. If any errors crop up, you've either got a bad diskette or the controller setup doesn't support FM recording. Note that reading alone isn't good enough--some controllers support reading, but not writing FM data. I make a DOS boot diskette and include this program on it and invoke it from the AUTOEXEC.BAT file. Quick and simple--and I've been surprised by the number of modern mobos that have FM support on them. This little utility also supports secondary controllers and DISKETTE.CFG files, so one could dummy a configuration file up to test only secondary controllers, I imagine. Enjoy, Chuck From bdwheele at indiana.edu Tue Jan 31 14:20:25 2006 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:20:25 -0500 Subject: List of emulators and/or OSes available to hobbyists? In-Reply-To: <200601311954.k0VJsS0o011347@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200601311954.k0VJsS0o011347@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <1138738825.3227.9.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> gxemul seems to be running ultrix pretty nicely, complete with X. An update on your page might be a nice touch :) [not affiliated with gxemul, just a happy user] Brian On Tue, 2006-01-31 at 11:54 -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Does anyone have any pointers to other emulators/OSes available to > > hobbyists? > > Well, for DEC related emulation I humbly recommend the following :^) > > http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/decemu.html > > I've also started the following webpage (and am looking for additional > links). > > http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/bigironemu.html > > Zane > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 31 14:35:52 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:35:52 -0800 Subject: List of emulators and/or OSes available to hobbyists? Message-ID: <97139F0C-5AB2-4A1E-AC91-B01AD4D1AEFB@bitsavers.org> > I've also started the following webpage (and am looking for additional > links). http://www.mess.org/main.php There are several non-micro emulations in there, including PDP-1 TX-0 and 990/10 http://www.cozx.com/~dpitts/ibm7090.html http://www.cozx.com/~dpitts/ti990.html Dave Pitts' 7090 and TI990 pages http://www.unlambda.com/ Brad's Lisp Machine pages From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Jan 31 14:46:04 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:46:04 -0600 Subject: PLATO system / CDC mainframe / PLATO terminals In-Reply-To: <20060131021427.27DCC197CC6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: One of my pet projects for awhile has been to get the Atari 8-bit version of the PLATO software (cartridge) working with the cyber1 system mentioned here. I've seen some screenshots of it running on Atari 8-bit, it looks pretty neat. You can also get programs for Windows/UNIX/Mac OS X to connect to it, which is what I've used so far. I have to say I have a hard time believeing an instructional tool like this existed so long ago. I was/am very impressed. > > http://www.cyber1.org/ > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Jan 31 15:05:54 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:05:54 -0800 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: References: <000301c62666$1e4a18d0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: On 1/31/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > If you want to talk about SIMM's that are rare as hens teeth, how > about the 128M 72-pin SIMM's? I managed to get ahold of either 2 or > 4 of them for my one AlphaStation 200 4/233. Rare if you want to pull them from old equipment or get them free. But not so rare if you're willing to by them new for ~$50 apiece. (Enter "72 pin SIMM 128MB" at pricewatch.com). From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 15:12:32 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:12:32 -0700 Subject: RX02 emulator? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:23:31 -0600. <43DFB933.5020303@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: In article <43DFB933.5020303 at mdrconsult.com>, Doc Shipley writes: > Has anybody built and used Peter McCollum's Qbus RXV11 emulator? So with the T-bus wire wrap board, does it already handle the bus tranceiver stuff? I've been talking off list about techniques for handling the bus requirements of Q-bus. It looks like you still have to handle this yourself with a wirewrap board; I'm assuming chips in the bottom row of are the bus transceivers? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 15:18:37 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:18:37 -0700 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:27:21 -0800. <200601311927.LAA29559@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: In article <200601311927.LAA29559 at ca2h0430.amd.com>, "Dwight Elvey" writes: > >[...] I do have one monitor. I haven't tried > >to power it up, but written on the case is the word "DIM", presumably > >identifying a failure in the monitor somewhere. I've never repaired > >monitors, so I'm not sure what a dim image is suppose to indicate. > >Failing HV drive circuitry? > > Hi > HV would cause blooming of the image. Dim image is weak cathode > in the tube or problems in the circuits controlling the cathode > to gate voltage levels. > Dwight So... if its the tube, there's nothing to do but replace the tube? Egads... I wonder how hard it would be to find a compatible replacement. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From news at computercollector.com Tue Jan 31 15:19:38 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:19:38 -0500 Subject: Our 100th issue! Message-ID: <003901c626ac$0b5bbdf0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Amazingly, next Monday (Feb. 6) will our 100th issue of Computer Collector Newsletter. Let me tell you, that milestone blows away my feeble mind! But it is true. So, if you haven't signed up before, then please do so now. The 100th issue will be much longer than usual. Also, we're up to 920 subscribers worldwide. Obviously our next milestone will be 1,000. Please spread the word! (Feedback / suggestions / critiques / donations are always welcome.) http://news.computercollector.com Thanks, - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 15:20:18 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:20:18 -0700 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:45:58 -0500. <200601311445.58666.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: In article <200601311445.58666.rtellason at blazenet.net>, "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > On Tuesday 31 January 2006 01:55 pm, Richard wrote: > > I do have one monitor. I haven't tried to power it up, but written on the > > case is the word "DIM", presumably identifying a failure in the monitor > > somewhere. I've never repaired monitors, so I'm not sure what a dim image > > is suppose to indicate. Failing HV drive circuitry? > > Power supply problems more likely than anything else. Maybe caused by weak > capacitors, as those will age more than any other part. Other failure modes > will all (mostly) cause an outright failure. Other than checking for obvious shorts and opens, what's a good way to check a (safely discharged) capacitor for such problems? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 15:31:42 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:31:42 -0700 Subject: ESV peripheral data concentrators available Message-ID: On the odd chance that anyone else out there has an Evans & Sutherland ESV workstation and would like an RDC peripheral concentrator (multiplexes keyboard, mouse, dials box and button box into a single RS-422 line), let me know. I have two, but they are missing the 68000 DIP control processor. Otherwise they are in mint condition. It should be easy to find 68000 chips to plug into these puppies. This means you can have your noisy ESV in another room while you sit in comfort in a quiet work area :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Jan 31 15:36:56 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:36:56 -0500 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43DFD878.4000404@jcwren.com> An ESR meter is a handy device. . In addition to this, you should still use a VOM to check for a shorted cap, and a capacitance meter to verify the value. The ESR meter is nice because it works in-circuit. --jc Richard wrote: > In article <200601311445.58666.rtellason at blazenet.net>, > "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > > >> On Tuesday 31 January 2006 01:55 pm, Richard wrote: >> >>> I do have one monitor. I haven't tried to power it up, but written on the >>> case is the word "DIM", presumably identifying a failure in the monitor >>> somewhere. I've never repaired monitors, so I'm not sure what a dim image >>> is suppose to indicate. Failing HV drive circuitry? >>> >> Power supply problems more likely than anything else. Maybe caused by weak >> capacitors, as those will age more than any other part. Other failure modes >> will all (mostly) cause an outright failure. >> > > Other than checking for obvious shorts and opens, what's a good way to > check a (safely discharged) capacitor for such problems? > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 31 13:16:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:16:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: <004201c6260a$0e716a00$72781941@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Jan 30, 6 09:00:04 pm Message-ID: > > I was wondering have you guys ever seen piles of computer equipment that was > dirt cheap but you didn't bother grabbing at the time only to see them > become rare and desired later on? Well, I remember passing over loads of ZX80s at radio rallies. Now, I am told they're actually worth money... But as I don't collect for the money, but for the interest of hacking about with the machines I don't really regret it. What I do regret is not buying loads of TTL (particularly S, and the even more obscure H families), 8 bit micros and support ICs, etc when they were current. Some parts are hard to find in the UK now. I was actually quoted \pounds 25.00 for a plain 6522 VIA the other day (!). Oh well... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 31 13:21:33 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:21:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jan 30, 6 09:29:48 pm Message-ID: > > > I was wondering have you guys ever seen piles of computer equipment that was > > dirt cheap but you didn't bother grabbing at the time only to see them > > become rare and desired later on? > > It would be harder to come up with a list of the opposite. What do you mean by 'the opposite'? Stuff you didn't grab and didn't become rare/desired Stuff you grabbed and didn't become rare/desired Stuff you grabbed and did become rare/desired -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 31 15:13:31 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:13:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles (was: Common items you passed up In-Reply-To: <200601311259.46406.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Jan 31, 6 12:59:46 pm Message-ID: > I know I've seen such things, in a store that's now long gone, where they > were designed to let you re-use your memory in the process of upgrading. If > my recollection is correct you could take 4 30-pin parts and stack them up to > put into a 72-pin socket... Considering that 72 pin SIMMs electrically are much the same as 4 off 30 pin SIMMs with the address pins (and RAS/, CAS/, etc) linked but with separate date pins, that would seem to be a very easy thing to make. Slightly harder (but still fairly easy) is a device that takes 4 4M SIMMs of a patticular type and acts like a 16M SIMM of the same type. You then have to decode a couple of the address lines and gate the CAS/ line appropriately (I think, without grabbing the data book). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 31 15:17:49 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:17:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles (was: Common items you passed up In-Reply-To: <200601311820.NAA24018@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jan 31, 6 01:19:28 pm Message-ID: > > >> It is. I own some three or four cards which have four 30-pin SIMM > >> sockets and are designed to plug into a 72-pin socket. > > As I look at these, I notice that they're all adapters as opposed to > > something that gangs up multiple SIMMs to create a higher capacity > > "SIMM". Anyone seen anything like that? > > Um, that's exactly what mine do, unless I'm misunderstanding you. For > example, you can plug four 1M 30-pin SIMMs into one and you get a 4M > 72-pin "SIMM". A 1M 30 pin ZIMM has 1048576 locations each of 9 bits. A 4M 72 pin SIMM has 1048576 locations each of 36 bits. It's electrically much the same a 4 20 pin SIMMs. I suspect the adapter is just connectors wired together in the right way. I think what the first poster wants is a thing that takes 4 30-pin 1M SIMMs and looks like a 4M 30 pin SIMM to the rest of the system. That is, it appears to have 4194304 locations, each of 9 bits. It's not hard to design something like that I think, but it would inovlve a few chips -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 31 15:22:09 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:22:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: <43DFACB5.4000904@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel" at Jan 31, 6 07:30:13 pm Message-ID: > > > > Ooh! A Lilith. I lucked out and have 4 main units, but I need docs, > > and information on hooking up keyboards, mice and monitors. I think > > the monitors are special for the Lilith. What did you get besides the > > main unit? > > > Richard, > > yours are Eves, the followup on the Lilith. > > Keyboard, mice and monitors are indeed special to the Lilith. > > The keyboard has a serial, straight ASCII output and goes to the > monitor. In the monitor is a serial to parallel convertor and the > keyboard data then goes in parallel to the main unit ! Not as crazy as a PERQ AGW3300 then. The monitor plinth contains a board called the multiplexer. It takes the serial lines from the keyboard and optional tablet, the quadrature and button lines from the mouse, etc, shoves them into a shift register (note, the serial data is not converted to parallel first), sent down to the main box as a fast data stream, then fed into another shift regiser, some outputs of which go to UARTs to accept the seiral data from the keyboard and tablet. The shift register is clocked fast enough that the serial data (1200 baud or something) is unmangled by this. > > The mouse is a 3 key straight quadrature output thingie. > > The (external) floppy is very particular: it has an Apple II floppy > controller card, a small 6502 motherboard in which the apple floppy unit > plugs and a serial connection . Kersqueeble! > > The backplane has a 200 contact connector, the force required to insert > PCB is incredible. > > My Lilih is once again playing up, I will have to bite the bullet and > draw the schematics. Cheap IC sockets might play a role, but Good luck. Having done this for somewhat simpler machines (although still complicated ones), I will say that it's a lot of work (expect to spend months doing it), but you get a very good understanding of the machine's hardware at the end. -tony From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jan 31 15:48:37 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:48:37 -0500 Subject: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? Message-ID: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com> Turns out the RX02 emulator needs an M105 and M7821 single height UNIBUS card to work. Anyone have an extra M105 and M7821? I've never seen one of these, but that doesn't mean much. Are they common? Also, does any one have Schematics for the M105 and M7821? I looked on bitsavers and did not find anything. -brad From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jan 31 15:57:50 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:57:50 -0500 Subject: You Won eBay Item: DEC RL1 Diagnostics on RL-01 disk cartridge In-Reply-To: <43DFA926.1060803@mdrconsult.com> References: <200601311805.k0VI5kEO004577@mwave.heeltoe.com> <43DFA926.1060803@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200601311657.50730.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 31 January 2006 13:15, Doc Shipley wrote: > Brad Parker wrote: > > Doc Shipley wrote: > >> VTserver, which project seems to have fallen off the face of the > >> earth. > > > > I've been using it with linux and an 11/34. I've made a few mods > > which I'm happy to share if anyone wants them. > > > > I've also been happily using the tu58 emulator (both sides) with > > linux. > > > > I should put them up on my web site. > > Pretty-please! There were several planned improvements in > VTserver v3 that I really wanted, although now I can't remember what. > > Although we ought to point out that the v2.x that's available on > TUHS is Not Too Shabby either. FYI, vtserver won't work with an 11/03 (no MMU), but tu58sim should work fine (emulates a "normal" tu58, though I think you can make it pretend to be bigger than 256kB). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jan 31 15:57:51 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:57:51 -0000 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003c01c626b1$62f0c150$5b01a8c0@pc1> Tony Duell wrote: > Well, I remember passing over loads of ZX80s at radio rallies. Now, I > am told they're actually worth money... But as I don't collect for the > money, but for the interest of hacking about with the machines I don't > really regret it. True. But if you had grabbed them you would have been able to cash them in four-five years ago (when they went for ?400 or so) or even now, when they still command ?150+ ... > they were current. Some parts are hard to find in the UK now. I was > actually quoted \pounds 25.00 for a plain 6522 VIA the other day (!). ... and you'd be able to afford a few more VIAs :-) Having said that, I've never managed to look ahead and pick stuff up to fund my hobby either, so you are not entirely alone. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jan 31 15:59:42 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:59:42 -0000 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003d01c626b1$a4fd7a20$5b01a8c0@pc1> Tony Duell wrote: > What do you mean by 'the opposite'? > Stuff you didn't grab and didn't become rare/desired Not interesting. > Stuff you grabbed and didn't become rare/desired Too much of that! > Stuff you grabbed and did become rare/desired I doubt that I have anything that falls into that category anyway. Unless you count stuff that I wanted but which noone else is likely to care about (the occasional proto board etc.). Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 31 15:53:23 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:53:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 31, 6 11:55:06 am Message-ID: > up a keyboard to it straight! I do have one monitor. I haven't tried > to power it up, but written on the case is the word "DIM", presumably > identifying a failure in the monitor somewhere. I've never repaired > monitors, so I'm not sure what a dim image is suppose to indicate. > Failing HV drive circuitry? It's not failing EHT (HV) on its own. That will cause a dim picture, but it'll also cause a large picture (low EHT means the beam is 'less stiff' and is deflected more easily). One (embarassing [1]) cause is notthing more than a dirty screen. Clean it [1] Well, it's embaarassing if you're staring at a 'scope and meter, got the schematics open, etc, and have spent a couple of hours looking for an electronic problem. Other, more serious causes include : Low emission CRT. A CRT of that age might take being 'blasted' if you can find somebody with the right device, or feel like making one (there were plenty of designs in the magazines between about 15 nd 30 years ago) Low first anode (g2) voltage. In monitors that produce this from the EHT by a resistive divifer network it's not at all uncommon for this to fail and lower the first anode voltage. It's often, alas, part of the flyback transformer, and those are even harder to find than CRTs. Incorrect voltage on the cathode or grid of the CRT. Normally the easiest fault to put right (in that it'll be a common small component in most monitors), but the hardest to trace. Power supply problems. A low supply rail to the monitor might cause a dim picture with no other problems. Does anyone have a working monitor of the saem type and suitable test equipment. If so, bribe them (:-)) to measure the supply rails, CRT electrode voltatges, etc. It'll give you something to compare against. I actually do this when I get a new monitor, and write the values on the schematic. Then when it fails I know where to look. > > The mouse is a 3 key straight quadrature output thingie. > > Do you have any ideas on what kind of commercially available mice > would be compatible? If it is a quatrature output mouse, and is TTL levels, then I would think an ST, Amiga, or Acorn Arc mouse could be used with a connector change. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 31 15:58:41 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:58:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 31, 6 02:20:18 pm Message-ID: > Other than checking for obvious shorts and opens, what's a good way to > check a (safely discharged) capacitor for such problems? Am EDR meter. Electrolytics tend to dry out, at which point the effective series resistace increases (and the cap is then pretty useless for most applciations) but the capacitance value doesn't change much (so you'll not spot it with a capacitance meter). If you repair monitors, SMPSUs, or the like, you need an ESR meter. Period. -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jan 31 16:04:27 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:04:27 -0000 Subject: VAXstation drive sled description In-Reply-To: <9e2403920601301132xd6aeacdw9b4e3e5a1d386b2e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003e01c626b2$4f1afa00$5b01a8c0@pc1> Josef Chessor wrote: > I'm going out on a limb on this one, but if the VS3100 M76 uses the > same chassis as my M38 ( A slim, desktop affair made of solid metal), > then it's just screw-on bosses, and no additional chassis needed. In > essence, it's just a phillips-head screw/bolt with a rubber-like pad > a short distance under the screw head that screws directly into my > drives. I think you are right. I've never seen a sled for the VS 3100s (or the uV 3100s). The drives have rubber bosses screwed on as you say. The drive mounting plate, which covers the entire mainboard and could not reasonably be called a sled, has springy metal tabs that hold the drive in position. If the original querant's machine has a visible mainboard, then he is missing a reasonably large piece of metal (or two IIRC, in the case of the M48 etc.) Not impossible to manufacture a work-alike, but probably tough to make a reasonable copy. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 31 16:06:21 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:06:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? In-Reply-To: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Jan 31, 6 04:48:37 pm Message-ID: > > > Turns out the RX02 emulator needs an M105 and M7821 single height UNIBUS > card to work. > > Anyone have an extra M105 and M7821? > > I've never seen one of these, but that doesn't mean much. Are they common? They used to be very common. Original Unibus SPC cards were dual height and fitted into connectors C and D of the slot. You put an M105 address selector in connector E and an M782 (or M7820, M7821) interrupt logic board in connector F The M105 is the address selctor. It decodes the address from the Unibus, generates SSYN as appropriate and supplies 4 decoded regsiter select lines and read/write lines to the peripjheral controller. The M7821 is the interrupt logic, it handles the bua master part of the interrupt sequence, supplies the vector, etc. I haev no idea where you'd find one now. 'In DrARD's junk box' is not a useful answer, although true. I also have (I think) some 3rd party dual height boards that fit into connectors E and F and perform both functions. > Also, does any one have Schematics for the M105 and M7821? I looked on > bitsavers and did not find anything. Try looking in the printsets for early SPC devices (KL11, PC11, DR11-A, etc). Some of those should include the M105 and M7821 schematics. -tony From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jan 31 16:09:27 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:09:27 -0600 Subject: You Won eBay Item: DEC RL1 Diagnostics on RL-01 disk cartridge In-Reply-To: <200601311657.50730.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200601311805.k0VI5kEO004577@mwave.heeltoe.com> <43DFA926.1060803@mdrconsult.com> <200601311657.50730.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <43DFE017.5040709@mdrconsult.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Tuesday 31 January 2006 13:15, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> Although we ought to point out that the v2.x that's available on >>TUHS is Not Too Shabby either. > > > FYI, vtserver won't work with an 11/03 (no MMU), but tu58sim should work > fine (emulates a "normal" tu58, though I think you can make it pretend > to be bigger than 256kB). I know. But vtserver works a treat on the "bigger" boxes. Doc From Useddec at aol.com Tue Jan 31 16:10:02 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 17:10:02 EST Subject: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? Message-ID: <27.2b82ba8.31113a3a@aol.com> Hi Brad, They were very common in older unibus controllers. I may have some around here. I do have rx01 and 02 interfaces if you need them. Thanks, Paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 31 16:17:11 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:17:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: <003d01c626b1$a4fd7a20$5b01a8c0@pc1> from "a.carlini@ntlworld.com" at Jan 31, 6 09:59:42 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > What do you mean by 'the opposite'? > > > Stuff you didn't grab and didn't become rare/desired > > Not interesting. Obviously. I would put most clone PCs (particularly 386+) in this category. > > > Stuff you grabbed and didn't become rare/desired > > Too much of that! Me too. Well, it's useful to me. An example would be my TRS-80 Model 4. I still use it, it's got a reasonable disk controller (WD1793 based) and I have some good disk hacking utilities. I fired it up the other day to back up a BBC micro disk (it was easier to do that than set up a Beeb, and I wanted to make a backup before I did anything eise). But I hardly think Model 4 is going to make me rich.... > > > Stuff you grabbed and did become rare/desired > > I doubt that I have anything that falls into that > category anyway. Unless you count stuff that I wanted > but which noone else is likely to care about (the > occasional proto board etc.). I'm remarkably bad at getting stuff that has collector value :-). Many of my machines are technically interesting (which is why I grabbed them), some are even historically interesting, but for some reason collectors don't go crazy for PERQs, HP9830s, and the like. And almost none of my stuff is 'collector grade' I don't have original boxes, etc. And it looks used. For example I have a fair number of old HP handhelds, but they all have minor dings, etc on them. This doesn't bother me -- I still _use_ them. But the value to a collector, even of things like my 16C, 9100B, etc is probably minimal. The least valuable HP I own is one that I would never give up. An old, battered, HP45. The reason is that I built it. I was given a load of junk at an HPCC meeting mad there were enough bits to make a 45. The chips on the logic board came from 2 or 3 machines, the displays aren't all the same sixe (These machines have 3 5-digit display modules in them, HP used 2 different character height ones, you're supposed to have all 3 the same in a particular machine, obviously), and so on. To a collector it's worthless. To me, because I got it going, and because doing that taught me a lot about how the classic series HPs work, it's priceless. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 16:29:21 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:29:21 -0700 Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles (was: Common items you passed up In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:13:31 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > Slightly harder (but still fairly easy) is a device that takes 4 4M SIMMs > of a patticular type and acts like a 16M SIMM of the same type. You then > have to decode a couple of the address lines and gate the CAS/ line > appropriately (I think, without grabbing the data book). That's why I figured it should be within a homebrewer's ability and would be handy for collectors of old stuff like me :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 31 16:31:24 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:31:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles (was: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060131143035.Y33144@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, Richard wrote: > > It is. I own some three or four cards which have four 30-pin SIMM > > sockets and are designed to plug into a 72-pin socket. > > As I look at these, I notice that they're all adapters as opposed to > something that gangs up multiple SIMMs to create a higher capacity > "SIMM". Anyone seen anything like that? Yes. But I didn't stop to think that they would become rare. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 31 16:32:59 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:32:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles (was: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them) In-Reply-To: <200601311820.NAA24018@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200601311820.NAA24018@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20060131143204.F33144@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 31 Jan 2006, der Mouse wrote: > Um, that's exactly what mine do, unless I'm misunderstanding you. For > example, you can plug four 1M 30-pin SIMMs into one and you get a 4M > 72-pin "SIMM". I think that he is looking for the ones that you can plug four 1M 30-pin SIMMs into one and you get a 4M 30-pin "SIMM". From josefcub at gmail.com Tue Jan 31 16:37:07 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:37:07 -0600 Subject: VAXstation drive sled description In-Reply-To: <003e01c626b2$4f1afa00$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <9e2403920601301132xd6aeacdw9b4e3e5a1d386b2e@mail.gmail.com> <003e01c626b2$4f1afa00$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <9e2403920601311437n6a3de5f7w941916ed1822972e@mail.gmail.com> Antonio, On 1/31/06, a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > If the original querant's machine has a visible mainboard, > then he is missing a reasonably large piece of metal (or > two IIRC, in the case of the M48 etc.) Not impossible to > manufacture a work-alike, but probably tough to make > a reasonable copy. If the M48 is like my M38 and he's missing the upper metal plate, he's also missing the SCSI controller, as mine's on a board on top of the large, metal plate. Out of curiousity, do the other members of the VAXstation 3x00-series also have the propietary 50-pin external SCSI connector arrangement that my M38 does? Or, is there an inexpensive way to procure an external SCSI cable for a VAXstation 3100 M38? I love my VAX dearly, but it would certainly be nice to have external drives (My entire SCSI B bus is going to waste...). eBay is of no help here, whenever I go looking. Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 16:40:51 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:40:51 -0700 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:17:11 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > The least valuable HP I own is one that I would never give up. An old, > battered, HP45. The reason is that I built it. I was given a load of junk > at an HPCC meeting mad there were enough bits to make a 45. The chips on > the logic board came from 2 or 3 machines, the displays aren't all the > same sixe (These machines have 3 5-digit display modules in them, HP used > 2 different character height ones, you're supposed to have all 3 the same > in a particular machine, obviously), and so on. To a collector it's > worthless. To me, because I got it going, and because doing that taught > me a lot about how the classic series HPs work, it's priceless. If you watch lots of Antique Road Show :-), you'll see that this sort of thing actually adds provenance value over time, but it will probably be a while before your HP-45 is valued higher than the typical collectible :). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 16:32:36 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:32:36 -0700 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:57:51 +0000. <003c01c626b1$62f0c150$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: In article <003c01c626b1$62f0c150$5b01a8c0 at pc1>, "a.carlini at ntlworld.com" writes: > Having said that, I've never managed to look ahead and pick stuff > up to fund my hobby either, so you are not entirely alone. This discussion is making me *not* regret that I snatched 11 of these IBM PC 3xx models from the equipment purge at work. :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jan 31 16:48:09 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:48:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them Message-ID: <200601312248.OAA03183@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi No, even the tube may be revived some. You can often run the heater at a higher voltage for some time and check the emission periodically. Usually, you can safely run the filament at 1.5 to 2 times the rated voltage for 5 or 6 hours. It is usually done with no cathode current while at the higher voltage and then return to normal levels to check for the current. It would help to have a tube tester but I suspect that just measuring the voltage drop across a resistor in the cathode circuit someplace would tell if there was any improvement. You graph the increase in current. At some time, you don't get any improvement so you stop there. No sense wasting the filament. You could control the voltage with a variac and a transformer. Do make sure that the tube is the cause. Raised voltage on the filament can shorten the life of the filament and at times cause cathode to filament shorts. If the image is well focused and not over sized, the main rail voltages are OK. Dwight >From: "Richard" > > >In article <200601311927.LAA29559 at ca2h0430.amd.com>, > "Dwight Elvey" writes: > >> >[...] I do have one monitor. I haven't tried >> >to power it up, but written on the case is the word "DIM", presumably >> >identifying a failure in the monitor somewhere. I've never repaired >> >monitors, so I'm not sure what a dim image is suppose to indicate. >> >Failing HV drive circuitry? >> >> Hi >> HV would cause blooming of the image. Dim image is weak cathode >> in the tube or problems in the circuits controlling the cathode >> to gate voltage levels. >> Dwight > >So... if its the tube, there's nothing to do but replace the tube? >Egads... I wonder how hard it would be to find a compatible >replacement. >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 31 17:06:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 23:06:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: <200601312248.OAA03183@ca2h0430.amd.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Jan 31, 6 02:48:09 pm Message-ID: > > Hi > No, even the tube may be revived some. You can > often run the heater at a higher voltage for some > time and check the emission periodically. Usually, > you can safely run the filament at 1.5 to 2 times > the rated voltage for 5 or 6 hours. It is usually The method generally used on TV tubes of the period (and I don't see why monitor tubes would be any different) was something like : 1) Over-run the heater. Typically a 6.3V heater would be run at 8V or 10V 2) Apply a fairly high (200V-ish) +ve voltage the control grid (wrt the cathode), all other electrodes floating (no EHT applied either). This, combined with the overheated cathode, stripped the top layer of emissive stuff off the cathode, hopefully exposing a fresh surface. It worked will on some CRTs, on others, it totally removed the emissive material and you ended up with a totally useless CRT. But you've nothing to lose by trying it on an otherwise useless tube There was also a simple way to do an emission test. Again the only electrodes you used were the heater, cathode, and control grid. I think you ran the heater at the normal voltage and used the cathode/grid as a diode and measured the current flow with a fairly low (if any) +ve voltage on the grid. The higher the current, the better the cathode was emitting. Many designs for such devices have been published in the magazines. The lethal ones get the 300V or so by rectifying the mains (or in your case using a voltage doubler on the mains). More friendly ones used an isolating transformer or a oscillator/step up transformer from a battery. -tony From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Jan 31 16:56:39 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:56:39 -0800 Subject: ISA bus throughput Message-ID: <1138748199.43dfeb272e0a8@webmail.secure-wi.com> I revived an old 6Mhz PC AT today by removing the original Western Digital based hard disk controller and replacing it with a newer, generic IDE controller. The large boat-anchor class 5.25" full height hard disk had died, and without a suitable replacement a small IDE drive was chosen. The rest of the machine is original, including the EGA card with the extra memory daughterboard and the full slot monochrome card. While discussing this beast, the topic of putting a CD-ROM on it came up. (I would never do such a thing except for giggles.) The topic of the CD-ROM led to a throughput question - could this old monster even do it? As in, is the ISA bus up to reading from the CD-ROM at a reasonable speed? Well, let's go throught some quick math. 6 million clock cycles per second is a lot, but when you consider that each transation on the bus takes 4 to 5 cycles, and instructions take 4 to 5 cycles (average) on a 80285, the throughput might not be so hot. Forget the CD-ROM and let's just pretend it's an I/O device on the bus, like a fast hard disk. Given a PC AT running at 6Mhz, what can reasonably be expected for bus throughput? (Obviously this depends on the loop and the instructions used.) I would have guess 500K or so per second, but now I'm second guessing myself and I'll actually have to write a small benchmark to try it. When writing to a hard disk, would this machine have used a tight processor loop, or would it have used DMA? Under what circumstances would it use DMA to transfer data to a hard disk? And one last question .. Unlike the PC and XT, the AT BIOS handles hard drives. It didn't blink when I removed the crusty WD based controller and replaced it with a no-name WinBond based controller. Does the new IDE controller really look that much like the old controller that the BIOS can't tell? -Mike From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jan 31 17:16:02 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 17:16:02 -0600 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: <200601311617.LAA22866@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200601300303.WAA21446@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43DD9BE4.5030707@oldskool.org> <200601300623.BAA03447@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43DF0B2E.7030303@oldskool.org> <200601311617.LAA22866@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43DFEFB2.9020801@oldskool.org> der Mouse wrote: >>[...] but the simple answer is that the compression scheme used by >>PNG compresses smaller and decompresses faster than what GIF uses. > > I never claimed otherwise. I merely pointed out it is a great deal > more complicated. No, that's the crazy thing: LZ77-based schemes are actually less complicated than LZ78. > Is it? I thought the discussion was talking about colour line-art. In We were? If that's the case, practically anything will work for B&W line art, although I'd probably lean toward TIFF (GIF has resolution limits IIRC). If you don't have a need for more than 256 colors, you don't have a need for PNG. But don't dismiss the format just because you don't have a need for it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jan 31 17:20:26 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 17:20:26 -0600 Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43DFF0BA.4070903@oldskool.org> Richard wrote: >>I mean that, in a scanning context, if you see a "line art" setting, it >>normally produces a 1bpp result. > > Yeah. Most front end stupid user software for scanners produces the > shittiest results, IMO. I always end up scanning at high res, down > filtering in software and then quantizing and the scanner software > always wants to do stupid things to *help* me. The HP scanner front > end was absolutely atrocious; the builtin scanner wizard in WinXP made > me more productive! You have very bad scanner software then. I buy Microtek scanners exclusively because the scanner software is extremely flexible and exact. If I want a 12-bit grayscale, I get it. If I want descreening with a 150 LPI matrix, I get it. Even with bad software, use everything that you can that you know isn't messed up. This is because most scanner software/drivers (that comes bundled with the scanner, at least) work in the scanner's native colorspace, which almost certainly exceeds yours. I always do level correction in the scanner software because does all the fixups at 40-bit (my scanner's depth) and I get a better result than if I had dumped into a 24-bit file and adjusted levels after the fact. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 31 17:27:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:27:57 -0800 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: <1138748199.43dfeb272e0a8@webmail.secure-wi.com> References: <1138748199.43dfeb272e0a8@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <200601311527570005.49801EFF@10.0.0.252> On 1/31/2006 at 2:56 PM mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: >While discussing this beast, the topic of putting a CD-ROM on it came up. (I >would never do such a thing except for giggles.) The topic of the CD-ROM led >to a throughput question - could this old monster even do it? As in, is the >ISA bus up to reading from the CD-ROM at a reasonable speed? It doesn't matter--all IDE CD-ROMs are very generously buffered. I've run CD-ROMs (albeit SCSI) on 8-bit 4.77MHz XTs. >Forget the CD-ROM and let's just pretend it's an I/O device on the bus, >like a fast hard disk. Given a PC AT running at 6Mhz, what can reasonably be >expected for bus throughput? (Obviously this depends on the loop and the >instructions used.) I would have guess 500K or so per second, but now I'm second >guessing myself and I'll actually have to write a small benchmark to try it. Depends on the handshaking, etc. used. Clearly, if you have to read status before reading data, the throughput is going to be half of what you can do if you can read status alone. IIRC, doing nothing but I/O reads, the 16-bit throughput on a 286 bus is about 4 MB/sec. >When writing to a hard disk, would this machine have used a tight processor >loop, or would it have used DMA? Under what circumstances would it use >DMA to transfer data to a hard disk? PC-XTs used DMA, but most MFM AT controllers used PIO. Given that the controller also buffers data, it makes sense to get a sector read and then just use an INSW to get the data. Faster than DMA. I do recall a few bus-mastering 16 bit controllers, however. >And one last question .. Unlike the PC and XT, the AT BIOS handles hard >drives. It didn't blink when I removed the crusty WD based controller and >replaced it with a no-name WinBond based controller. Does the new IDE controller >really look that much like the old controller that the BIOS can't tell? Pretty much. The IDE understands more commands, such as IDENTIFY, but the basic command set's pretty much a superset of the old MFM controllers--and for that matter, the ESDI controllers (which do have an IDENTIFY command, so they look even more like IDE). And remember that your disk calls on a 286 will still go through the BIOS extension ROM on the WinBond. So it doesn't matter. --Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jan 31 17:30:50 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 17:30:50 -0600 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: <1138748199.43dfeb272e0a8@webmail.secure-wi.com> References: <1138748199.43dfeb272e0a8@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <43DFF32A.8050201@oldskool.org> mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: > While discussing this beast, the topic of putting a CD-ROM on it came up. (I > would never do such a thing except for giggles.) I've successfully used my Sound Blaster Pro + 1X CDROM drive to play Sherlock Holmes (a video title, no less) on a 12MHz 286, so it is possible. 1X is, as I'm sure you remember, 150KB/s. As for giggles, it's really useful. Most 286s don't have 650MB of storage :-) > Well, let's go throught some quick math. 6 million clock cycles per second is a > lot, but when you consider that each transation on the bus takes 4 to 5 cycles, > and instructions take 4 to 5 cycles (average) on a 80285, the throughput might > not be so hot. Don't forget memory timing. Different boards/manufacturers did different things. > When writing to a hard disk, would this machine have used a tight processor > loop, or would it have used DMA? Under what circumstances would it use DMA to > transfer data to a hard disk? I believe the AT and later used tight processor loops as they beat the speed of DMA but I could wrong. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 31 17:33:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:33:11 -0800 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601311533110256.4984EA8B@10.0.0.252> On 1/31/2006 at 11:06 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >The method generally used on TV tubes of the period (and I don't see why >monitor tubes would be any different) was something like : > >1) Over-run the heater. Typically a 6.3V heater would be run at 8V or 10V In the old monochrome days, servicemen used to install "brighteners" inline with the CRT socket. Usually just an encapsuled transformer set to give a selectable boost to the heater. Bottles were expensive back then--now we just throw the set away, it seems. There were also jigs for popping inter-electrode shorts (usually due to some cathode material flaking off and falling on the electrode supports. Basically, you located the shorted electrodes and applied a charged electrolytic to them. Most of the time, it worked. I've heard of, but never tried, doing the same thing to revive NiCd cells with internal shorts. Cheers, Chuck From rcini at optonline.net Tue Jan 31 17:44:14 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 18:44:14 -0500 Subject: Just won HP 4952A / HP 18179A protocol analyzer/serial adapter Message-ID: <002601c626c0$3e897550$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I just won this protocol analyzer (with the 002 option which is the extended memory option) on eBay. Does anyone have a PDF of the manual and disk images (or pointers thereto)? Thanks!! Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jan 31 17:47:46 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 18:47:46 -0500 Subject: You Won eBay Item: DEC RL1 Diagnostics on RL-01 disk cartridge In-Reply-To: <43DFE017.5040709@mdrconsult.com> References: <200601311805.k0VI5kEO004577@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200601311657.50730.pat@computer-refuge.org> <43DFE017.5040709@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200601311847.46147.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 31 January 2006 17:09, Doc Shipley wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Tuesday 31 January 2006 13:15, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> Although we ought to point out that the v2.x that's available on > >>TUHS is Not Too Shabby either. > > > > FYI, vtserver won't work with an 11/03 (no MMU), but tu58sim should > > work fine (emulates a "normal" tu58, though I think you can make it > > pretend to be bigger than 256kB). > > I know. But vtserver works a treat on the "bigger" boxes. I was pointing it out, because the original poster was asking how to make RL01 images with an 11/03. VTserver won't be useful for that (but tu58sim probably would be). -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 31 17:50:59 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 23:50:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: <200601311533110256.4984EA8B@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 31, 6 03:33:11 pm Message-ID: > > On 1/31/2006 at 11:06 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >The method generally used on TV tubes of the period (and I don't see why > >monitor tubes would be any different) was something like : > > > >1) Over-run the heater. Typically a 6.3V heater would be run at 8V or 10V I was talking about over-running the heater for a short period while you boosted the CRT, and then going back to the normal voltage to actually use it. > > In the old monochrome days, servicemen used to install "brighteners" inline > with the CRT socket. Usually just an encapsuled transformer set to give a Those were not common over here, possibly because 99.9% of valved monochrome TVs had a series chain of heaters which included the CRT. That was typically at the chassis end of the chain and this led to the 'butcher's method' of putting a high wattage resistor between the live side of the mains after the on/off switch and the non-earthed CRT heater connection, so as to give said heater a bit more current. As I said, a butcehr's method. > selectable boost to the heater. Bottles were expensive back then--now we > just throw the set away, it seems. They still are expensive, it's just that TVs have become too cheap. When I needed a new CRT for a somewhat rare mono terminal, the cheapest (and easiest) way to get one was to buy a monochrome portable TV and raid the CRT from it. > > There were also jigs for popping inter-electrode shorts (usually due to > some cathode material flaking off and falling on the electrode supports. > Basically, you located the shorted electrodes and applied a charged > electrolytic to them. Most of the time, it worked. I've heard of, but > never tried, doing the same thing to revive NiCd cells with internal > shorts. That works too (or if you're brave, a quick flick with the bench supply!). My expeirence is that the cells with then charge, but won't last that long (the separators are probably damaged, they tend to short again). But it's worth knowing the trick becuase it'll get a dead NiCd pack going long enough to test whatever device it comes from, and lets you know if it's worth buying new cells. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 31 17:58:32 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 23:58:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: <1138748199.43dfeb272e0a8@webmail.secure-wi.com> from "mbbrutman-cctalk@brutman.com" at Jan 31, 6 02:56:39 pm Message-ID: > > I revived an old 6Mhz PC AT today by removing the original Western Digital based > hard disk controller and replacing it with a newer, generic IDE controller. > The large boat-anchor class 5.25" full height hard disk had died, and without a > suitable replacement a small IDE drive was chosen. The rest of the machine is > original, including the EGA card with the extra memory daughterboard and the > full slot monochrome card. > > While discussing this beast, the topic of putting a CD-ROM on it came up. (I > would never do such a thing except for giggles.) The topic of the CD-ROM led Why not? It works. > to a throughput question - could this old monster even do it? As in, is the > ISA bus up to reading from the CD-ROM at a reasonable speed? Depends on what you mean by 'reasonable speed'. AFAIK most CD-ROMs have internal buffers, and will read quite well even on a slow machine (you are limited by the bus speed, so don't try anything that _needs_ high throughput). I wouldn't want to try a CD burner though. You don't want ot know about the CD-ROM drive I have on this machine (a much-hacked PC/AT with most of the original bits). It's an external Philips unit, and it looks like a converted audio CD player. Darn it, it _is_ a converted audio CD player. Most of the bits, including the mechanism (CDM-4), decoder chips, case, etc are the same as those of a contemporary Philips CD-plauer. They added an ASIC to grab the data stream after the decoder and send it to the PC, and re-programmed the microcontroller to accept comamnds from the PC. It's just as well I realised it was a modified CD player. The mains switch failed mechanically (wouldn't latch on), and the service mnaual for the CD-ROM drive (yes, I have it) didn't list it. Fortunately the manual for the audio player did, I ordered that, and fortunately again it was the right part. > When writing to a hard disk, would this machine have used a tight processor > loop, or would it have used DMA? Under what circumstances would it use DMA to > transfer data to a hard disk? The PC/AT hard disk contoroller and the mainboard BIOS do not use DMA. > > And one last question .. Unlike the PC and XT, the AT BIOS handles hard drives. > It didn't blink when I removed the crusty WD based controller and replaced it > with a no-name WinBond based controller. Does the new IDE controller really > look that much like the old controller that the BIOS can't tell? YEs, that was the idea behind IDE. It's upward compatible with the ST506 controller (WD2001 or something like that). I have an IDE card in this PC/AT. It's just a few TTL buffers and a PAL as the address deocder. It uses the mainboard BIOS, there is no extension ROM on that card. -tony From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jan 31 18:23:35 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 18:23:35 -0600 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: <1138748199.43dfeb272e0a8@webmail.secure-wi.com> References: <1138748199.43dfeb272e0a8@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <43DFFF87.7010704@mdrconsult.com> mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: > And one last question .. Unlike the PC and XT, the AT BIOS handles hard drives. > It didn't blink when I removed the crusty WD based controller and replaced it > with a no-name WinBond based controller. Does the new IDE controller really > look that much like the old controller that the BIOS can't tell? Well, consider the IDE hack for the PC/RT. As long as the IDE disk honors all the ESDI commands (translate as "if it's a Seagate Medalist <2GB"), you can replace the FDC/ESDI adapter in an IBM PC/RT with an FDC/IDE card and the system firmware doesn't even notice. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 31 18:44:59 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:44:59 -0800 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601311644590511.49C6A7AA@10.0.0.252> On 1/31/2006 at 11:58 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >YEs, that was the idea behind IDE. It's upward compatible with the ST506 >controller (WD2001 or something like that). I have an IDE card in this >PC/AT. It's just a few TTL buffers and a PAL as the address deocder. It >uses the mainboard BIOS, there is no extension ROM on that card. ...and ATAPI is sideways-compatible with SCSI. :) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 31 18:56:20 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:56:20 -0800 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601311656200601.49D10C2C@10.0.0.252> On 1/31/2006 at 11:50 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Those were not common over here, possibly because 99.9% of valved >monochrome TVs had a series chain of heaters which included the CRT. That setup didn't manifest itself here until the 1960's. All 1950's sets had very large (and desirable for other projects) power transformers. I imagine that today the glass audio folks would really love to get some of those old hunks of iron. Secondary winding was typically something like 450-0-450v rms, with several separate heater windings; usually 5v for the rectifier (usually a 5U4) and 6.3v for most of the other bits and maybe an extra winding for the horizontal output heater. It wasn't that uncommon to re-wind the secondary for higher voltage and current for transmitter use. A transformer from an old RCA color set was the golden ring--an absolutely huge thing. I spent many happy hours scavenging old TV chassis for parts, even after the owners had removed all of the glass from them (with a thought toward using them later, no doubt). The old 21 MHz IF turret-type tuners were wonderful for VHF work. Cheers, Chuck From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jan 31 18:59:12 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:59:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: ISA bus throughput Message-ID: <200602010059.QAA07125@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com >I revived an old 6Mhz PC AT today by removing the original Western Digital based >hard disk controller and replacing it with a newer, generic IDE controller. >The large boat-anchor class 5.25" full height hard disk had died, and without a >suitable replacement a small IDE drive was chosen. The rest of the machine is >original, including the EGA card with the extra memory daughterboard and the >full slot monochrome card. > >While discussing this beast, the topic of putting a CD-ROM on it came up. (I >would never do such a thing except for giggles.) The topic of the CD-ROM led >to a throughput question - could this old monster even do it? As in, is the >ISA bus up to reading from the CD-ROM at a reasonable speed? > >Well, let's go throught some quick math. 6 million clock cycles per second is a >lot, but when you consider that each transation on the bus takes 4 to 5 cycles, >and instructions take 4 to 5 cycles (average) on a 80285, the throughput might >not be so hot. > >Forget the CD-ROM and let's just pretend it's an I/O device on the bus, like a >fast hard disk. Given a PC AT running at 6Mhz, what can reasonably be expected >for bus throughput? (Obviously this depends on the loop and the instructions >used.) I would have guess 500K or so per second, but now I'm second guessing >myself and I'll actually have to write a small benchmark to try it. > >When writing to a hard disk, would this machine have used a tight processor >loop, or would it have used DMA? Under what circumstances would it use DMA to >transfer data to a hard disk? Hi Hard disk controller have at lest one sector RAM buffer and most newer ones have at least a track worth of RAM. The controller doesn't write the sector until the buffer has the new data. Reads are buffered the same so that bus speeds are not issues, like for floppies. Dwight > >And one last question .. Unlike the PC and XT, the AT BIOS handles hard drives. > It didn't blink when I removed the crusty WD based controller and replaced it >with a no-name WinBond based controller. Does the new IDE controller really >look that much like the old controller that the BIOS can't tell? > > > >-Mike From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 31 19:02:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 17:02:01 -0800 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200601311702010731.49D640B6@10.0.0.252> On 1/31/2006 at 11:58 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >You don't want ot know about the CD-ROM drive I have on this machine (a >much-hacked PC/AT with most of the original bits). It's an external >Philips unit, and it looks like a converted audio CD player. Darn it, it >_is_ a converted audio CD player. Most of the bits, including the >mechanism (CDM-4), decoder chips, case, etc are the same as those of a >contemporary Philips CD-plauer. They added an ASIC to grab the data >stream after the decoder and send it to the PC, and re-programmed the >microcontroller to accept comamnds from the PC. I used to have a couple NEC CD-ROM drives like that--still had all of the holes in the case for plugging in the cigarette-lighter adapter and all. They'd fitted it with a DB-25 for a SCSI interface. 1X speed. What can I say? They were cheap. Cheers, Chuck From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jan 31 19:15:09 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 17:15:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them Message-ID: <200602010115.RAA07558@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> >> Hi >> No, even the tube may be revived some. You can >> often run the heater at a higher voltage for some >> time and check the emission periodically. Usually, >> you can safely run the filament at 1.5 to 2 times >> the rated voltage for 5 or 6 hours. It is usually > >The method generally used on TV tubes of the period (and I don't see why >monitor tubes would be any different) was something like : > >1) Over-run the heater. Typically a 6.3V heater would be run at 8V or 10V > >2) Apply a fairly high (200V-ish) +ve voltage the control grid (wrt the >cathode), all other electrodes floating (no EHT applied either). Hi I've had better luck with 0 volts. If the tube has not been used for a long time, it will be a little gassy. This tends to boil off the cathode along with the other stuff. When you have the voltage, the electrons will hit the gass atoms and ionize them. These are then slammed back into the cathode. One article I read stated that the first stage should be done with 0 volts and then switch to a + volts on the grid(s)+anode for the last part. I've not tried this myself but the method makes sense. In the first part, the getter has time to catch the outgassing. The last part helps to freshen the surface. I know that there are many articles that state to put the voltage on from the beginning. I've also read in a only a couple of articles that the outgassing from the initial stages can poison the cathode enough to make the process useless. I recover many old vacuum tubes for my old battery radios. I've had good enough experience with the 0 volts and enough bad experience with the voltage on the grid/plate that I use the 0 volt. Dwight > >This, combined with the overheated cathode, stripped the top layer of >emissive stuff off the cathode, hopefully exposing a fresh surface. It >worked will on some CRTs, on others, it totally removed the emissive >material and you ended up with a totally useless CRT. But you've nothing >to lose by trying it on an otherwise useless tube > >There was also a simple way to do an emission test. Again the only >electrodes you used were the heater, cathode, and control grid. I think >you ran the heater at the normal voltage and used the cathode/grid as a >diode and measured the current flow with a fairly low (if any) +ve >voltage on the grid. The higher the current, the better the cathode was >emitting. > >Many designs for such devices have been published in the magazines. The >lethal ones get the 300V or so by rectifying the mains (or in your case >using a voltage doubler on the mains). More friendly ones used an >isolating transformer or a oscillator/step up transformer from a battery. > >-tony > From CCTalk at catcorner.org Tue Jan 31 19:16:28 2006 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 20:16:28 -0500 Subject: floppy tape drives available Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A33778@mail.catcorner.org> I have a box full. Don't know which work, or which don't. Some Colorado, Exabyte, Connor, HP, others. 6 in all. Free, just cover shipping from 07461 (Wantage, NJ) if anyone has a need for them. Kelly From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Jan 31 19:21:37 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 17:21:37 -0800 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: References: <1138748199.43dfeb272e0a8@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: > I revived an old 6Mhz PC AT today by removing the original Western Digital based > hard disk controller and replacing it with a newer, generic IDE controller. > While discussing this beast, the topic of putting a CD-ROM on it came up. (I > would never do such a thing except for giggles.) The topic of the CD-ROM led > to a throughput question - could this old monster even do it? As in, is the > ISA bus up to reading from the CD-ROM at a reasonable speed? Not a problem. Your ISA bus is running at 6 MHz (167 ns cycle) and can do 16 bit transfers every couple four (667 ns) on a good day with the wind at its back. The IDE specification for PIO mode 0 is really spec'd for an 8 MHz ISA bus so it specifies 600 ns between transfers. But ISTR that it's spec'd as a minimum time between transfers of 600 ns. The maximum can be much longer, and often is since PIO mode max rates only happen if the processor isn't doing anything else. That's while IDE drives always have a track buffer. So your 6MHz ISA bus will max out at 3 MB/s (using 100% of CPU for I/O). The original multimedia PC systems were suggested to use <15% CPU on a single speed CD (153,600 bytes/s). On you system I'd estimate that a single speed CD read would take 2.5% of the CPU time if the driver is written well. You would theoretically max out your system with a 40X CD-ROM drive, but I'd be very surprised if you can keep up with a 24X drive. > When writing to a hard disk, would this machine have used a tight processor > loop, or would it have used DMA? Under what circumstances would it use DMA to > transfer data to a hard disk? The default BIOS would use polled I/O. CD-ROM drivers almost always use polled I/O, because most IDE cards don't support DMA because a lot of the drives don't support the ATA DMA modes. If by chance you do have a DMA capable IDE card you will need to install a driver to use it. > And one last question .. Unlike the PC and XT, the AT BIOS handles hard drives. > It didn't blink when I removed the crusty WD based controller and replaced it > with a no-name WinBond based controller. Does the new IDE controller really > look that much like the old controller that the BIOS can't tell? The BIOS shouldn't know the difference between the controllers. Just as long as the I/O ports are in the right place (and they are designed to be) there's no difference. The smarts on an IDE drive emulate the old AT disk controller's communications with the BIOS. You will probably have problems getting the BIOS to recognize the proper size of any disks you install. You may need a disk manager in order to get things running properly. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Jan 31 19:21:37 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 17:21:37 -0800 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: References: <1138748199.43dfeb272e0a8@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: > I revived an old 6Mhz PC AT today by removing the original Western Digital based > hard disk controller and replacing it with a newer, generic IDE controller. > While discussing this beast, the topic of putting a CD-ROM on it came up. (I > would never do such a thing except for giggles.) The topic of the CD-ROM led > to a throughput question - could this old monster even do it? As in, is the > ISA bus up to reading from the CD-ROM at a reasonable speed? Not a problem. Your ISA bus is running at 6 MHz (167 ns cycle) and can do 16 bit transfers every couple four (667 ns) on a good day with the wind at its back. The IDE specification for PIO mode 0 is really spec'd for an 8 MHz ISA bus so it specifies 600 ns between transfers. But ISTR that it's spec'd as a minimum time between transfers of 600 ns. The maximum can be much longer, and often is since PIO mode max rates only happen if the processor isn't doing anything else. That's while IDE drives always have a track buffer. So your 6MHz ISA bus will max out at 3 MB/s (using 100% of CPU for I/O). The original multimedia PC systems were suggested to use <15% CPU on a single speed CD (153,600 bytes/s). On you system I'd estimate that a single speed CD read would take 2.5% of the CPU time if the driver is written well. You would theoretically max out your system with a 40X CD-ROM drive, but I'd be very surprised if you can keep up with a 24X drive. > When writing to a hard disk, would this machine have used a tight processor > loop, or would it have used DMA? Under what circumstances would it use DMA to > transfer data to a hard disk? The default BIOS would use polled I/O. CD-ROM drivers almost always use polled I/O, because most IDE cards don't support DMA because a lot of the drives don't support the ATA DMA modes. If by chance you do have a DMA capable IDE card you will need to install a driver to use it. > And one last question .. Unlike the PC and XT, the AT BIOS handles hard drives. > It didn't blink when I removed the crusty WD based controller and replaced it > with a no-name WinBond based controller. Does the new IDE controller really > look that much like the old controller that the BIOS can't tell? The BIOS shouldn't know the difference between the controllers. Just as long as the I/O ports are in the right place (and they are designed to be) there's no difference. The smarts on an IDE drive emulate the old AT disk controller's communications with the BIOS. You will probably have problems getting the BIOS to recognize the proper size of any disks you install. You may need a disk manager in order to get things running properly. From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Jan 31 19:26:35 2006 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 17:26:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: WANTED: 8088 Assembler Message-ID: <20060201012635.99991.qmail@web34114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello, Where can I get an Assembler for an old 8088 system? Please email it to me if you have one. Thanks! Steve. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Jan 31 19:32:51 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:32:51 -0600 Subject: SIMMS and other memory dongles Message-ID: <5a7e0ed1ec36401c8d0d5867a7e6a0ec@valleyimplants.com> What this sounds like is that he wants something to build up a (say) 128 MB SIMM from 4 32 MB SIMMS, and have it be the same width. This sounds suspiciously like you're trying to build a device to create a composite SIMM, which does require some external logic (often implemented as a PAL). When composite SIMMS were made, they were the cause of some "profanity sculpture", as they tended to not have consistant timing, if I recall. The 8-bit to 32-bit adaptors were/are fairly common, but with 4-16 MB 32/(36)bit SIMMS free to very cheap, not really worth pursuing. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Jan 31 19:46:46 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:46:46 -0600 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: References: <1138748199.43dfeb272e0a8@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <43E01306.30004@brutman.com> Good, I'm learning a bit here .. The superIO controller card I stuck in there did not look like it had a BIOS ROM extension, so I'm assuming that the chipset emulated whatever the hard disk interface was on the AT, and that the built-in BIOS on the AT is still driving everything just as though it was the original controller. It's hard to believe it is this simple, but I'm not going to argue. I never considered IDE elegant until now .. Chuck - you mentioned that the superio controller card would have a BIOS extension. Are you certain? One card that I tried definitely did, as it had the intelligence to handle larger drives. The particular card that I used does not have any options for setting a BIOS ROM address, doesn't put a splash message up at boot time, and doesn't have anything that looks like an EPROM on it. (Even though it looks quite elderly.) Eric Korpela's note indicates that it behaves more like my description above ... Another part of the equation is the CPU. If it's doing the I/O doing a tight loop, it has to be fetching instructions from memory for the instruction loop as well as doing the I/O to the bus. I was thinking that if each instruction takes a few cycles that even the tightest of loops would waste a lot of cycles, but I found a gem in the 286 user's guide - REP. Apparently you can use REP INx and REP OUTx instructions to generate a tight loop that doesn't require subsequent instruction fetches until the loop ends. So that would allow a 286 to push the bus much harder than an 8088/8086 class machine would. (The 8088/8086 would have to keep fetching instructions, which would suck.) Mike From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 19:46:44 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 18:46:44 -0700 Subject: SIMMS and other memory dongles In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:32:51 -0600. <5a7e0ed1ec36401c8d0d5867a7e6a0ec@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: In article <5a7e0ed1ec36401c8d0d5867a7e6a0ec at valleyimplants.com>, compoobah at valleyimplants.com writes: > [...] but with 4-16 MB 32/(36)bit SIMMS free = > to very cheap, not really worth pursuing.=0D=0A Hey, if you've got 16 MB 32-bit SIMMs laying around, I may have a use for them in these IBM 300XL, 350 and 365 machines I just got from work. I'm trying to coagulate the various parts of a group of systems into a single system to get them a little beefier before I give them away to interested parties. It would be nice to get them all up to 64 MB at least before shipping them out. Is there an easy way to spot the size of the SIMM? I don't have chip numbers memorized. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Jan 31 19:51:17 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 19:51:17 -0600 Subject: WANTED: 8088 Assembler In-Reply-To: <20060201012635.99991.qmail@web34114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060201012635.99991.qmail@web34114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43E01415.6000706@brutman.com> steven stengel wrote: > Hello, > Where can I get an Assembler for an old 8088 system? > Please email it to me if you have one. > Thanks! > Steve. > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > There are lots of them? Do you want an old one or a new one? An MS one or a freeware one? Paper docs or not? I picked up MS MASM 6.11 as part of a textbook package on eBay for a grand total of 6.99 .. I was pretty pleased with that purchase. eBay has been crazy recently - a boxed 6.0 copy of MS MASM sold for $100 just last week. Mike From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 31 20:11:04 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 18:11:04 -0800 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: <43E01306.30004@brutman.com> References: <1138748199.43dfeb272e0a8@webmail.secure-wi.com> <43E01306.30004@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200601311811040656.4A15757A@10.0.0.252> On 1/31/2006 at 7:46 PM Michael B. Brutman wrote: >Chuck - you mentioned that the superio controller card would have a BIOS >extension. Are you certain? One card that I tried definitely did, as >it had the intelligence to handle larger drives. Some controller cards have BIOS extensions, some don't. Most IDE ones that were built to handle larger IDE drives do; garden-variety ones don't. You may get in a bind with a larger IDE drive as the original AT was pretty limited in its support for large drives. >I was thinking that if each instruction takes a few cycles that even the >tightest of loops would waste a lot of cycles, but I found a gem in the >286 user's guide - REP. Apparently you can use REP INx and REP OUTx >instructions to generate a tight loop that doesn't require subsequent >instruction fetches until the loop ends. So that would allow a 286 to >push the bus much harder than an 8088/8086 class machine would. (The >8088/8086 would have to keep fetching instructions, which would suck.) As I mentioned, the operative instructions are INS and OUTS--work just like STOS and LODS, except the input is through port (DX). Even on a Pentium-class machine, the original AT 16-bit bus timings are observed for ISA devices, so at some point, processor speed just doesn't matter any more. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jan 31 21:11:58 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:11:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: SIMMS and other memory dongles In-Reply-To: <5a7e0ed1ec36401c8d0d5867a7e6a0ec@valleyimplants.com> References: <5a7e0ed1ec36401c8d0d5867a7e6a0ec@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200602010316.WAA01752@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The 8-bit to 32-bit adaptors were/are fairly common, but with 4-16 MB > 32/(36)bit SIMMS free to very cheap, not really worth pursuing. I'm not sure. I thought of an unconventional use for one the other day. A friend had five 16M 30-pin SIMMs and knew that of four of them, one was bad, but didn't know which one. It occurred to me that putting them a 30-to-72 adapter could end up getting them into a machine with more thorough memory-test capabilities, and which byte lane errors appeared in would tell which of the four was at fault. (In principle, you could do as much with a machine that took 30-pin RAM directly. But if the memory-test capabilities you have on such machines aren't up to what you have on a 72-pin machine....) Yes, it's admittedly a rather recondite use. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jan 31 21:16:25 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:16:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM Quick Reference Guide - 1992 In-Reply-To: <43DFEFB2.9020801@oldskool.org> References: <200601300303.WAA21446@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43DD9BE4.5030707@oldskool.org> <200601300623.BAA03447@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43DF0B2E.7030303@oldskool.org> <200601311617.LAA22866@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43DFEFB2.9020801@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200602010336.WAA01915@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> [...] but the simple answer is that the compression scheme used by >>> PNG compresses smaller and decompresses faster than what GIF uses. >> I never claimed otherwise. I merely pointed out it is a great deal >> more complicated. > No, that's the crazy thing: LZ77-based schemes are actually less > complicated than LZ78. Perhaps in general. But I've just been reading over the RFCs specifying it; I'm not yet done and it's already more complicated than LZW compression such as used by GIF. (The ideas are simple. The rendering of them into practice is not.) Perhaps I just have a different idea of complexity from you. > If you don't have a need for more than 256 colors, you don't have a > need for PNG. Well, unless you need a non-1bpp alpha channel, or non-composed alpha, some such. > But don't dismiss the format just because you don't have a need for > it. Oh, I wasn't. Except in this particular case, and that conditional on the colour line-art being suitable for quantizing down to a sufficiently small set of colours. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jan 31 21:40:33 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:40:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles (was: Common items you passed up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602010344.WAA01987@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > A 1M 30 pin ZIMM has 1048576 locations each of 9 bits. > A 4M 72 pin SIMM has 1048576 locations each of 36 bits. It's > electrically much the same a 4 20 pin SIMMs. I suspect the adapter > is just connectors wired together in the right way. I believe so too, both because visual inspection indicates that they appear to be made of nothing but sockets, etch runs, and a very few surface-mount passives, and because I once did some experiments and found that a partially-populated adapter appeared as 32-bit words of memory of which some subset of the bits acted unimplemented (writes ignored, reads return all-0 or all-1, I forget which), the subset depending on which sockets were populated. (The adapter I was testing with put one byte in each sub-SIMM, but of course there's no reason the subsets have to be grouped like that.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 22:11:52 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:11:52 -0700 Subject: Salt Lake City hospitality Message-ID: Speaking of road trips and the Red Iguana, if any of you cctalk'ers are making your way through or to SLC, be sure to email me a 'heads up' and I'll treat you to a pint of beer and give you a look at my collection if you're interested. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 31 22:15:28 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 20:15:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Salt Lake City hospitality In-Reply-To: from Richard at "Jan 31, 6 09:11:52 pm" Message-ID: <200602010415.UAA16006@floodgap.com> > Speaking of road trips and the Red Iguana, if any of you cctalk'ers > are making your way through or to SLC, be sure to email me a 'heads > up' and I'll treat you to a pint of beer and give you a look at my > collection if you're interested. Beer? In Salt Lake City? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Hell hath no fury like a bureaucrat scorned. -- Milton Freedman ------------ From jrasite at eoni.com Tue Jan 31 22:40:27 2006 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 20:40:27 -0800 Subject: Salt Lake City hospitality In-Reply-To: <200602010415.UAA16006@floodgap.com> References: <200602010415.UAA16006@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <8350a5419f37ef104c2d5ee67883b7ff@eoni.com> Polygamy Porter? ("Take some home to the wives" "Why have just one?") SLC's finest! Jim On Jan 31, 2006, at 8:15 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Beer? In Salt Lake City? From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 31 23:15:54 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:15:54 -0700 Subject: Salt Lake City hospitality In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Jan 2006 20:15:28 -0800. <200602010415.UAA16006@floodgap.com> Message-ID: In article <200602010415.UAA16006 at floodgap.com>, Cameron Kaiser writes: > > Speaking of road trips and the Red Iguana, if any of you cctalk'ers > > are making your way through or to SLC, be sure to email me a 'heads > > up' and I'll treat you to a pint of beer and give you a look at my > > collection if you're interested. > > Beer? In Salt Lake City? Heh heh... yeah, the rest of the country has some pretty funny ideas of what Salt Lake City is like... usually spoken by people who have never been here :-) If I were to treat you to a pint, I would take you to the Bayou, which has the best selection of beers in town: I'll also point out that when I moved here in '88, I had never heard of a microbrewery. Salt Lake had not just one but several within the next few years and despite the fact that their beer is required to be 3.2% by law outside of a private club (i.e. bar), they *still* won first place awards for the taste and quality of the brew. Even several years after we were awash in microbreweries here in Salt lake, they still didn't have *one* back at my own town of Newark, Delaware. (Now they have 'em, but it took them a while to catch up to 'beerless' Salt Lake City :-). Local brewery names are Moab, Desert Edge, Red Rock, Squatters, Uinta and Wasatch. Ones I like are Squatter's Pale Ale, Wasatch (no) 2002 Amber, Wasatch Hefeweizen, Squatter's St. Provo Girl. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 31 23:33:15 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:33:15 -0800 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: <43E01306.30004@brutman.com> References: <1138748199.43dfeb272e0a8@webmail.secure-wi.com> <43E01306.30004@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200601312133150520.4ACE8FAA@10.0.0.252> Let me add a note on the BIOS-less IDE card for your PC-AT. The biggest problem that I see is that the largest geometry that your PC-AT BIOS tables allow is 1024 cylinders, 17 sectors and 16 heads, which gives you a grand total of 139 MB total. While positively huge for the PC-AT era, it's pretty puny when it comes to IDE drives. An IDE drive in CHS mode can address 16384 cylinders, 63 sectors on 16 heads for a total of 8GB. While not huge by today's standards, it was positively enormous for the time. So, you've got two alternatives. Add a BIOS extension (usually on a disk controller card, but doesn't have to be) to plug the necessary code in during boot, or use an "overlay" (which is really the wrong word) which loads some driver code from the first track of your hard drive, then plugs itself in as sort of a TSR program (actually locates itself in high memory, then adjusts the amount of available base RAM downwards) to intercept disk requests and map them to the expanded geometry. The "overlay" mode (such as that provided by "Disk Manager") has its limitations, but should be okay on a 286. But I personally like the BIOS ROM extension myself. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Tue Jan 31 11:10:12 2006 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 17:10:12 +0000 Subject: OT: seeking: MPG3102AT (in UK) Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060131170113.054c2c30@irrelevant.com> Hi all. Sorry it's only 5 years old, but I'm trying to find an Fujitsu 10Gb IDE hard drive, model MPG3102AT, in order to rescue data off the one I have here. I gather that these have a fairly common fault that something in the board goes, causing it to disappear as far as the PC is concerned. We had a power cut this morning, and when it came back on, the drive wasn't found... I've already tried swapping it with the apparently identical board off a MPG3204AT however that's a 20Gb drive, and it just clunks a lot when on this mechanism; presumably there is a setting somewhere that means it's looking for more heads or something. Sadly, I'm not up to component level or firmware debugging on these things. Unfortunately, speed is of the essence here.. so if there's anybody in the UK with one of these, surface condition immaterial, that would be willing to let it go, please get in contact. Naturally I'll cover any costs, collect, replace with something similar or bigger, etc. Once i've got my data, you can even have it back.. Cheers, Rob. From bill_mcdermith at mcdermith.net Mon Jan 30 09:28:27 2006 From: bill_mcdermith at mcdermith.net (Bill McDermith) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:28:27 -0700 Subject: UCSD Pascal and s100 manuals In-Reply-To: <20060129175442.97855.qmail@web32511.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060129175442.97855.qmail@web32511.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43DE309B.2000503@mcdermith.net> Well, I just tried http://www.s100-manuals.com/pascal.htm and the links I see on that page access s100-manuals.com and seem to work -- I checked out the interpreter and downloaded UCSD.exe without any difficulty... I could also inspect www.s100-manuals.com/Download without difficulty -- perhaps someone has seen the problems and repaired them... Bill Eric Scharff wrote: > Indeed, it looks like the transition from .net to .com is > incomplete. The files that exist on s100-manuals.net do not > exist, the ones on s100-manuals.com do. Most importantly, the > directory s100-manuals.com/Download does not seem to exist. > > Randy, are you out there? > > -Eric > > --- "Paul R. Santa-Maria" wrote: > > >> Philip Pemberton wrote: >> >>> 404. >>> The pages on s100-manuals.com actually link to >>> s100-manuals.net for the UCSD Pascal stuff... >>> >> My mistake. I downloaded my copy last June. >> >> Another good source for P-system stuff is >> http://www.threedee.com/jcm/psystem/ >> >> -- >> Paul R. Santa-Maria >> Monroe, Michigan USA >> >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > From bill_mcdermith at mcdermith.net Tue Jan 31 11:56:15 2006 From: bill_mcdermith at mcdermith.net (Bill McDermith) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:56:15 -0700 Subject: PLATO system / CDC mainframe / PLATO terminals In-Reply-To: <200601311607.LAA22786@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200601311607.LAA22786@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43DFA4BF.9020606@mcdermith.net> der Mouse wrote: >> Any other PLATO users out there? I was on udel's system in the >> 1978-1986 time frame, off and on, although PLATO wasn't the primary >> focus of my activities. >> > > I used PLATO in the late '70s at the University of Colorado (Colorado > Springs branch) - they had a couple of terminals which were connected > to a machine somewhere farther north; my memory waffles on whether it > was at Urbana-Champaign or Minneapolis/St-Paul. > UCCS terminals went through a concentrator to Boulder first, then on to the CDC system in Minnesota. At least in Colorado Springs, we did not have access to the UI machines. > I feel very nostalgic about it. I'd like to find a live PLATO > community. (cyber1.org is out because they demand agreeing to foreign > legal jurisdiction, and worse, the jurisdiction they demand is in the > USA, one of the most unreasonably litigous places on the planet.) > I don't mind, living in this "unreasonably litigous place".... I was also at UCCS in the later 70's and spent a fair bit of time on the two PLATO plasma terminals that were across the hall from the "computing center" (the room with the batch terminal to the CDC machines in boulder) Bill From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jan 31 18:12:11 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:12:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060201001211.96279.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> > > While discussing this beast, the topic of putting > a CD-ROM on it came up. (I > > would never do such a thing except for giggles.) > The topic of the CD-ROM led > > Why not? It works. You're not saying a modern (internal) ATAPI cd-rom (or dvd-rom?) would operate in such a machine with an IDE card? I guess I could just try it - had my 5170 out not hours ago to test my old 80188 based graphics card (beeeeep beep beep :( ), but I don't know where my IDE card went. It's no news that cd-roms could operate in older machines. I remember a friend with a Tandy 1000 something years ago who had one hooked up (can't remember if it was internal or external though). And he could listen to music while he was doing *presumably* something useful with the machine. > I have an IDE card in this > PC/AT. It's just a few TTL buffers and a PAL as the > address deocder. It > uses the mainboard BIOS, there is no extension ROM > on that card. It would be nice to obtain a schematic of one of the more primitive IDE cards *whistles*. And wouldn't artwork be nice too ;). Would an 8-bit card take the place of a 16-bit card in an AT? Presumably yes, albeit slower I guess. The Acculogic sIDE/16 or something has all discrete logic, save for a pal or gal (or 2). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com