From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 1 01:31:04 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 23:31:04 -0700 Subject: imsai 8080 power switch In-Reply-To: <4005.86.139.195.23.1154368052.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: Hi Lee Please try at least one of two experiments. Either actually measure with an inductive load or do a simulation. For a transformer, zero cross is the worst time to start. Don't confuse steady state action with the first cycle. The response is not the same. As you mention, turning off an inductive load is best when the current is zero. With an inductive load, this is at 90 degees, or peak voltage. This is also the best time to turn it on. For a purely resistive load, this at zero voltage. A transformer is somewhere in between. A large core transformer that isn't heavily loaded is more inductive than resistive. If it weren't, it would be useful. Dwight >From: "Lee Davison" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: imsai 8080 power switch >Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 19:47:32 +0200 (CEST) > > > One thing you should know about zero crossing. You don't want to use > > a zero cross relay on a highly inductuve load( the IMSAI might qualify > > as highly inductive because of the large core used ). You want a peak > > switching. Zero cross is the worst place to turn on an inductive load > > and results in the highest current surge. This may even saturate the > > core and cause a peak several times the normal running current. > >That's just wrong. > >A loaded transformer isn't an inductive load, it's mostly the same type >of load as what is loading the secondary. > >Zero crossing is the best place to turn on nearly any load, it may not >be the best place to turn off some loads but for on it is usually best. > >If you turn on an inductive load at the zero crossing zero current will >flow. There will be no surge. > >Unless there is a serious fault, and even then it is unlikely, you won't >saturate the core of a transformer regardless of how you switch it on. > >Lee. > > > From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Aug 1 10:45:42 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 08:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area Message-ID: Sorry for the OT posting, but I figure I'd find some qualified Unix techs here. I have a client in the Springfield, Missouri area that needs to get some data off of a very old SCO unix box. The box is not interconnected with anything else, and the only means to get data off--an old Irwin 60MB tape drive, went bad. I figure there would be a simple way to get the data off the hard disk, by either mounting it into a Linux box or adding an external drive to the SCO box via SCSI (though I'm not sure if it has a SCSI interface...in fact I know next to nothing about the box currently). If anyone is interested in this project, please e-mail me directly (I won't see any responses to the list). Time is of the essence, so please reply soon. P.S. VCF 9.0 is November 4-5. Web page going up today. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From kth at srv.net Tue Aug 1 11:38:57 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 10:38:57 -0600 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44CF83A1.1070000@srv.net> Sellam Ismail wrote: >Sorry for the OT posting, but I figure I'd find some qualified Unix techs >here. I have a client in the Springfield, Missouri area that needs to get >some data off of a very old SCO unix box. The box is not interconnected >with anything else, and the only means to get data off--an old Irwin 60MB >tape drive, went bad. I figure there would be a simple way to get the >data off the hard disk, by either mounting it into a Linux box or adding >an external drive to the SCO box via SCSI (though I'm not sure if it has a >SCSI interface...in fact I know next to nothing about the box currently). > >If anyone is interested in this project, please e-mail me directly (I >won't see any responses to the list). Time is of the essence, so please >reply soon. > > Not in the area. You could always try 'kermit' through a serial line. Slow, but it should work. Might be faster and safer than mucking about with assorted hardware. Another serial option might be 'uucp', or related programs. >P.S. VCF 9.0 is November 4-5. Web page going up today. > > > From evan at snarc.net Tue Aug 1 12:13:17 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 13:13:17 -0400 Subject: Help contacting the Rhode Island Computer Museum / Merle Pierce? Message-ID: <000801c6b58d$c822ae10$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> My email to Merle (at258 at osfn.org) just bounced. Message said there's no user by that name. It's very important that I reach Merle or someone at the RICM. Anyone here on cctalk...? Or anyone who knows how to reach him / them? Thanks. - Evan From bernd at kopriva.de Tue Aug 1 12:11:28 2006 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 19:11:28 +0200 Subject: HP 9000 Pascal 3.2 : HFS on HP9133L In-Reply-To: <001701c6b4e6$ec6fde70$0201010a@phatboy> Message-ID: <20060801180121.2433539176@linux.local> Hi, the latest version, that i saw somewhere mentioned is 3.25 (aka 3.2.5 ?) ... I have a copy of 3.2, but this one has a bug, that prevents operation with a HP9133L with HFS. If i assume, that there was always a pair HP Pascal/HP Basic, that can use concurrently a HFS volume, then there has to be some newer version, as Pascal 3.2 matches Basic 6.3, and Basic 6.4 is not compatible with Pascal 3.2. Ciao Bernd BTW: i still didn't find a copy of HP Pascal 3.25 ... On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:18:52 +1200, Anna & Peter Walker wrote: >> That would be me. I've been completely consumed for the past three months >> putting the Computer History Museum's software collection together. What I >> have pdf'ed is at bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/ >> >> I need to get this stuff back to Joe ASAP. >Hi Al, >Thanks for the heads-up! And a fanstastic reference site. >A clarification regarding the pascal 3.0 / 3.1 / 3.2 software which I'm >looking for, it is HP Pascal for HP 9000 Series 200/300 machines. And is >anyone able to clarify whether the latest version was 3.5, as queried by >Bernd Kopriva in an earlier post? >Regards, >Peter >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/404 - Release Date: 31-07-2006 From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Aug 1 12:28:54 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 12:28:54 -0500 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area Message-ID: <5c41f1d21fad47d9befba7aa4f31ade0@valleyimplants.com> Aah- SCO UNIX, how fun. Have a XENIX box that I was trying to do the same thing with. SCO's partition table (DIVVY) is not read by Linux or indeed any other UNIX but SCO. Furthermore, SCO is one of those lovely companies for which headers are a part of the optional development environment, and TCP/IP is another add-on (how do they stay in business whan put against xBSD/Linux? the FUD about IP doesn't work against BSD- been there, done that, adjudicated non-infringing). The best way to get information off of one of these systems is to TAR an archive out to a raw hard disk. Then you can untar it on another UNIX system. UUCP could also work - haven't tried that route. From evan at snarc.net Tue Aug 1 12:35:25 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 13:35:25 -0400 Subject: Help contacting the Rhode Island Computer Museum / Merle Pierce? In-Reply-To: <000801c6b58d$c822ae10$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <000d01c6b590$dfda46a0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Ah, the Wayback Machine to the rescue! http://web.archive.org/web/20050310102921/http://www.osfn.org/ricm/porpoise. html -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan at snarc.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:13 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Help contacting the Rhode Island Computer Museum / Merle Pierce? My email to Merle (at258 at osfn.org) just bounced. Message said there's no user by that name. It's very important that I reach Merle or someone at the RICM. Anyone here on cctalk...? Or anyone who knows how to reach him / them? Thanks. - Evan From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Aug 1 12:41:37 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 18:41:37 +0100 Subject: Data General Books available References: <001901c6b2fc$b542e280$0200a8c0@p2deskto> Message-ID: <000901c6b591$bdc7a160$0200a8c0@p2deskto> These are now all spoken for. Thanks Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Beacon" To: "Classic computer list" Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 11:49 AM Subject: Data General Books available > Hi, > > I have the following DG books available, they appear to relate to an early > medical scanner: > > Interface Designers Manual for Nova and Eclipse line computers > I/O Tester for Eclipse Processor, Part A > I/O Tester for Eclipse Processor, Part B > Nova 3 Exerciser Test > Eclipse Microword Flow Chart > Nova 3 Multi-Programming Rel > Eclipse Basic Instruction ROMS and Decoding > Scintron 3 Diagnostic Software > Scinticamera Detector Head > Scintron 3 Service Manual Appendix > > The whole lot weighs 3.5KG, and is available for the cost of postage, or > collect from Chesham, Bucks, UK, or Heathrow Airport area. > > Jim. > > Please see our website: www.g1jbg.co.uk > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 28/07/06 > > From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Aug 1 13:25:47 2006 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:25:47 -0400 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area In-Reply-To: <5c41f1d21fad47d9befba7aa4f31ade0@valleyimplants.com> References: <5c41f1d21fad47d9befba7aa4f31ade0@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0608011125n480fe2d2r7ca382c8117c80cf@mail.gmail.com> On 8/1/06, Scott Quinn wrote: > > > Aah- SCO UNIX, how fun. Have a XENIX box that I was trying to do the same > thing with. SCO's partition table (DIVVY) is not read by Linux > or indeed any other UNIX but SCO. I belive Unixware partition support is in (make menuconfig) File Systems -> Partition Types -> PC BIOS -> Unixware slices support, and filesystem support is under Miscellaneous -> System V/Xenix/V7/Coherent file system support. If the disk is SCSI, I'd go the mount-on-linux route, if you have a machine you can rebuild the kernel on and add support to those filesystems, that is. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Aug 1 13:35:36 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 13:35:36 -0500 Subject: Not classic, but free: HP-UX Message-ID: The bundle does come with a complete development environment (C, C++, SoftBench) on the Apps CDs. No mention of trial, and SoftBench works o.k. Of course, since HP is giving you the developer discount, you should feel obligated to share anything you build :->. From lee at geekdot.com Tue Aug 1 13:42:03 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 20:42:03 +0200 (CEST) Subject: imsai 8080 power switch Message-ID: <2628.86.139.195.23.1154457723.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Hello Dwight > Please try at least one of two experiments. Either actually measure > with an inductive load or do a simulation. For a transformer, zero > cross is the worst time to start. Why? What do you expect to happen? At zero crossing there is no volts and no current will flow. The current will start to increase as the voltage increases and continue to do so until the next zero cross point. > Don't confuse steady state action with the first cycle. The response > is not the same. Agreed. At the first cycle there is no energy stored in the inductor so switching it on at zero cross gives a circuit with no stored energy. > With an inductive load, this is at 90 degees, or peak > voltage. This is also the best time to turn it on. If you turn on an inductor at peak voltage you will get a magnetization offset that may take many cycles (approx LR) to decay. This gives a peak current that is much greater that that from switching on at the zero cross point and is clearly not the best point to turn it on. Lee. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 1 13:52:02 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 13:52:02 -0500 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area References: <5c41f1d21fad47d9befba7aa4f31ade0@valleyimplants.com> <5f7d1b0e0608011125n480fe2d2r7ca382c8117c80cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005f01c6b59b$93d02d50$6700a8c0@BILLING> I don't believe SCOware drives will mount on most other Unices. SCO can be a nightmare, I know, I supported it for years - and I'm in missouruh. Jay From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Aug 1 14:00:22 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 15:00:22 -0400 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 01 Aug 2006 14:25:47 EDT." <5f7d1b0e0608011125n480fe2d2r7ca382c8117c80cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608011900.k71J0Mtl031083@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jason McBrien" wrote: >On 8/1/06, Scott Quinn wrote: > > >I belive Unixware partition support is in (make menuconfig) File Systems -> >Partition Types -> PC BIOS -> Unixware slices support, and filesystem >support is under Miscellaneous -> System V/Xenix/V7/Coherent file system >support. > >If the disk is SCSI, I'd go the mount-on-linux route, if you have a machine >you can rebuild the kernel on and add support to those filesystems, that is. If the file system is HTFS you may be out of luck with linux (well, I'd say you are). This should help, however: http://www.stellarinfo.com/sco-data-recovery.htm I've never tried it but it looks like the right thing. If you are lucky and it's a sysv file system and the partition table is recognized then linux should help. I'd try uucp first, myself, and then maybe kermit. Or maybe even x/zmodem as it might have sx/sz on it. -brad From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 1 14:10:11 2006 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 15:10:11 -0400 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area In-Reply-To: <200608011900.k71J0Mtl031083@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200608011900.k71J0Mtl031083@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <44CFA713.5000300@sbcglobal.net> Brad Parker wrote: > > If the file system is HTFS you may be out of luck with linux (well, I'd > say you are).... I wonder, how many people that responded to this thread (besides Scott) noticed that Sellam asked us to respond to him directly, since he doesn't get the mail list messages? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue Aug 1 14:12:31 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 12:12:31 -0700 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area In-Reply-To: <44CF83A1.1070000@srv.net> References: <44CF83A1.1070000@srv.net> Message-ID: <44CFA79F.4010102@DakotaCom.Net> Kevin Handy wrote: > Sellam Ismail wrote: > >> Sorry for the OT posting, but I figure I'd find some qualified Unix >> techs here. I have a client in the Springfield, Missouri area that >> needs to get some data off of a very old SCO unix box. The box is not >> interconnected with anything else, and the only means to get data >> off--an old Irwin 60MB tape drive, went bad. I figure there would be >> a simple way to get the data off the hard disk, by either mounting it >> into a Linux box or adding an external drive to the SCO box via SCSI >> (though I'm not sure if it has a SCSI interface...in fact I know next >> to nothing about the box currently). > > You could always try 'kermit' through a serial line. > Slow, but it should work. Might be faster and safer than mucking > about with assorted hardware. > > Another serial option might be 'uucp', or related programs. Can't you build a tarball and cat it to the printer port (there are tools that will let you configure another machine to *capture* data from the printer port). No, not PLIP, etc. This would be an open-loop process... you just push the data and *expect* the other device to capture it all correctly. Serial port has the adantage of being unattended -- but slow. I suspect you won't find support for anything above 19.2K (?) depending on the vintage of the OS. Another option would be to dd(1) a tarball to a *second* RAW disk (and hope it numbers blocks the same as the "other" machine that you later move the drive to). This is quick and relatively painless to try (1MB at 19.2K will take you ~10 minutes depending on protocol overhead; 60MB will obviously take even longer :> ). Swapping a drive in and out should take less than an hour start to finish (been there -- too often! -- done that...) From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue Aug 1 14:13:43 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 12:13:43 -0700 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area In-Reply-To: <44CFA713.5000300@sbcglobal.net> References: <200608011900.k71J0Mtl031083@mwave.heeltoe.com> <44CFA713.5000300@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <44CFA7E7.9090105@DakotaCom.Net> David Woyciesjes wrote: > Brad Parker wrote: >> >> If the file system is HTFS you may be out of luck with linux (well, I'd >> say you are).... > > I wonder, how many people that responded to this thread (besides > Scott) noticed that Sellam asked us to respond to him directly, since he > doesn't get the mail list messages? I think his comment was for those who WANTED THIS "JOB" to reply directly. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 1 14:13:58 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:13:58 -0500 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area References: <200608011900.k71J0Mtl031083@mwave.heeltoe.com> <44CFA713.5000300@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <001401c6b59e$a4277f70$6700a8c0@BILLING> I noticed, and I replied to Sellam directly. However, it's still a valid topic for limited discussion here I think. J ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Woyciesjes" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 2:10 PM Subject: Re: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area > Brad Parker wrote: >> >> If the file system is HTFS you may be out of luck with linux (well, I'd >> say you are).... > > I wonder, how many people that responded to this thread (besides Scott) > noticed that Sellam asked us to respond to him directly, since he doesn't > get the mail list messages? > > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > --- AIM - woyciesjes > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 1 15:27:36 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 15:27:36 Subject: intel multibus ram documents needed In-Reply-To: <06072719512300.03283@bell> References: <44C6B142.4010903@mich.com> <06072519362900.02220@bell> <44C6B142.4010903@mich.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060801152736.137f2b12@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Joe, Just off the top of my head I hink those are standard Intel MDS 2xx boards. If they are I have docs for them. I'm in Oviedo. IIRC you're in Orlando. Joe At 07:51 PM 7/27/06 -0400, you wrote: >On Tuesday 25 July 2006 20:03, you wrote: >> joseph c lang wrote: >> >I have a couple of multibus RAM boards I'm looking for >> >jumper info or schematics. >> > >> >There's not much on the boards to identify the model >> >the first board: >> > >> >62KB dram board >> >multibus 1 >> >16 bit data path >> >the only marking (other than "INTEL") is PWA142779-006 >> > >> >The second board: >> >256KB dram board >> >multibus 1 >> >16 bit data path >> >the original marking was PWA143156-045 >> >this is struck out with black marker and >> >the number 133292-002 is written over it. >> >(this board may have been upgraded some time in its life) >> > >> >I suspect both boards were part of an Intel MDS. >> >(there was an ICE in the pile that I wasn't able to save) >> > >> >joe lang >> >> Any chance of some photos? I may have some info on them. > >I don't have any place to put the pictures. However I found pictures of the >boards on classiccmp.org > >I now know the 256K board is isbc-056 and the 64K board is from the mds2XX >system and doesn't have a isbc number. > >So now my search is reduced to: Anyone have documents for them? > >joe > > From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 1 14:48:25 2006 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 15:48:25 -0400 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area In-Reply-To: <001401c6b59e$a4277f70$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <200608011900.k71J0Mtl031083@mwave.heeltoe.com> <44CFA713.5000300@sbcglobal.net> <001401c6b59e$a4277f70$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <44CFB009.9030500@sbcglobal.net> Jay West wrote: > From: "David Woyciesjes" > >> Brad Parker wrote: >>> >>> If the file system is HTFS you may be out of luck with linux (well, I'd >>> say you are).... >> >> I wonder, how many people that responded to this thread (besides >> Scott) noticed that Sellam asked us to respond to him directly, since >> he doesn't get the mail list messages? >> > I noticed, and I replied to Sellam directly. However, it's still a > valid topic for limited discussion here I think. > > J True. 'Twas more of random thoughts occurring out loud. :) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Aug 1 15:28:35 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 13:28:35 -0700 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area In-Reply-To: <44CFA79F.4010102@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44CF83A1.1070000@srv.net> <44CFA79F.4010102@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44CFB973.2030904@msm.umr.edu> Don Y wrote: > > Can't you build a tarball and cat it to the printer port > (there are tools that will let you configure another machine > to *capture* data from the printer port). No, not PLIP, etc. > This would be an open-loop process... you just push the data > and *expect* the other device to capture it all correctly. > I would try cpio (find . -print|cpio -ov > /dev/tty) rather than the tarball, as it will transport sym links better than a tarball, and the sco tar will probably not be up to snuff to deal with it line gnu tar is now days. if space and functionality permit, one could create a cpio file and checksum it in some way to be sure it transfered with all the data. if nothing else, wc the thing. Jim From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 1 16:04:00 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 16:04:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Lobo's Max-80 Message-ID: <200608012104.k71L40U2079416@keith.ezwind.net> Hi all, Basically, I bought a bunch (40) of 80 Microcomputing magazines which are in pretty much mint condition. Every so often I type up interesting articles and post them to a couple of groups I am a member of. Since I am new here, I don't know whether this is allowed or not. If not, just let me know. A long read, but quite an interesting one. I was trying to keep this short, but I ended up typing up most of the article! Source: Page 122, 80 Microcomputing #42 (July 1983) - a Wayne Green Publication. Ignoring the adverts, the full length article about Lobo's (or Lobo Drives International, to give it it's full name) Max-80 computer is 4 pages long and is written by R.A. Langevin. I have attempted to give a summary of all the interesting bits. Read on.... Lobo Systems' Max-80 is an 8-bit microcomputer that supports LDOS and CP/M; has an impressive array of storage options, including floppy and hard disks; serial input/output; and both serial and parallel printer ports. In terms of versatility and performance per dollar, it's unquestionably a best buy in todays marketplace. The system is a natural upgrade for [TRS-80] Model I owners since it offers CP/M while preserving their investment in disk drives and in much of their software. It is also completely at home in a business environment. Not everyone, however, will appreciate this computer. Serious game players will find they can't use self-booting disks in the machine [what the?!]. In addition, although Model I graphics are supported and limited graphics are available in the CP/M mode, the Max-80 cannot presently display full-screen, high resolution graphics, a deficiency that makes it unsuitable for some business uses. The Max-80 is basically a single-board computer housed, with it's power supply, in an attractive, ivory coloured plastic case mounted on a steel baseplate. It complies with the radiation limits established by the FCC for Class A computing devices. Although this standard states that operation of complying equipment is likely to cause interference in residential areas, I have not encountered problems even with a television in the same room. The Max-80 is 17.5 inches wide and 10 inches deep. The top of the machine is 2 inches off the table top at the front and slopes gently upward [like my Amiga 600] to 3.5 inches at the top of the keyboard. The rear of the case holds a line fuse and all the connectors and switches [sounds familiar]. The internal power supply operates off 110-115 volts AC and is efficient enough so that a fan isn't necessary to keep the electronics cool [computers needed fans back then?]. The entire computer requires only 28 watts. Even after hours of continous operation, the case is never warm to the touch. The reset button is safely located at the rear of the machine. Except for an optional 64K bank of memory, the Max-80 is complete as it comes out of the box. There are no extra boards for disk interfaces, serial I/O, or video electronics. As a result, the machines original cost is its only cost. The machine is available with LDOS 5.1 and CP/M 2.2; much of the available [TRS-80] Model I and Model III software are supported as is 8-bit CP/M software. This combination of operating systems provides access to a larger software base than that of most competing machines. - CPU: Z80B @ 5.07 MHz (faster than TRS-80 I, II ,III & 12 and the Softcard Apple) - Realtime clock (years, months, days, hours and seconds, all accessible by software) with internal rechargeable battery - Keyboard features a 10-key numeric pad, 4 programmable function keys and a cursor- control block that includes a clear key. All ASCII keys are supported by auto repeat and the entire keyboard is fully debounced. - RAM supplied by one (or two) banks of 64K each, provided by 8 (or 16) Texas Instruments TMS 4164-20 chips. - Only 1 ROM which contains a small bootstrap loader that disables once the system boots. As a result, the modified LDOS supplied with the system loads the bottom 12K of RAM with the code that resides in ROM on Tandy or LNW [who?] machines. Consequently, currently available self-booting disks don't operate on the Max-80. - Separate gold plated card edges for connecting 5 inch and 8 inch floppy drives (both supporting single and double density, aswell as single and double-sided, disks) and are supported by the built-in controller in both TRS-80 and CP/M modes. A slide switch mounted adjacent to the 5 inch disk connector controls pin 32, permitting it to select drive 4 or, alternatively, to act as the side-select signal when using double-sided drives. Track counts of 35, 40, 77 and 80 are supported on 5 inch disks and the standard 77 tracks on 8 inch disks. - A hard disk interface is also included in the Max-80 and is available on a 50-pin, gold-plated card edge on the rear of the machine. This Shugart Associates Standard Interface (SASI) is designed to be used with an external controller. Both of the computers operating systems are presently configured to use Lobo Systems' Universal Controller and do not support other controllers without modification. - Maximum of 4 drives with LDOS, or 8 drives with CP/M. Since so many disk options are available they have included a DIP (Dual In-line Package) switch is provided on the rear of the case so you can boot from either a 5 inch (or 8 inch) floppy, 5 inch (or 8 inch) hard disk or a 5 inch (or 8 inch) floppy connected via the universal controller. (If you have the extra 64K of memory installed, it's possible to set up a ninth RAM: drive with 1K of directory space and 63K of storage space) - 5 inch disks can be formatted in Lobo's single or double-sided, double density format or in Osbourne, Xerox 820 or Omikron single density, single sided formats - 8 inch disks can be formatted in IBM single sided, single density and double sided, single or double density formats. - Serial I/O is provided from 2 independently programmable RS-232 interfaces (provided by a Z80 SIO chip, rather than a UART chip as in Tandy's machines) accessible through DB-25 connectors on the rear of the case. Either interface supports all standard baud rates up to 19,200 and can be used to drive a serial printer. - Parallel printer output is available via a standard Centronics interface, with a slide switch adjacent to the port which permits grounding or ungrounding pin 27 to adapt to printers (like the Epsom MX-80) that interpret a grounded pin 27 as a request to generate a line feed after each carriage return. - Video output is via a RCA phono jack and drives any monitor that accepts 1 volt composite video from a 75 ohm source and provides 15,750 Hz horizontal and 60Hz vetical sync frequencies. Lobo recommends a monitor bandwidth extending from DC to atleast 12 MHz to obtain good detail in the display, This is especially important in the CP/M mode, where the normal display is 80 characters by 25 lines. You can select a 40 character by 25 line display with a function key. In the TRS-80 mode, the display is a compatible 64 or 32 characters by 16 lines. - Standard TRS-80 Model I graphics are supported by the LDOS operating system - the extended graphics of the [TRS-80[ Model III are not. In the CP/M mode you can display up to 192 user-defined shapes. The first 128 shapes are limited to shapes that can be defined in the top half of a 8x16 pixel rectangle (and in normal use are used to display the ASCII character set). The remaining 64 shapes can be defined in a full 8x16 pixel rectangle. Max-80 with just 64K and CP/M 2.2 - $820 LDOS 5.1 - $69 64K RAM expansion - $95 Amdek Video 300 Green Screen 12" Monitor - $175 Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 1 17:35:56 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 17:35:56 Subject: OT: Purina Diet Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060801173556.1247d414@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Subject: Purina Diet Purina Diet I was in Wal-Mart buying a large bag of Purina for my Labrador retriever and was in line to check out. A woman behind me asked if I had a dog? On impulse, I told her that no, I was starting The Purina Diet again, although I probably shouldn't because I'd ended up in the hospital last time. But that I'd lost 50 pounds before I awakened in an intensive care ward with tubes coming out of most of my orifices and IV's in both arms. I told her that it was essentially a perfect diet and that the way that it works is to load your pants pockets with Purina nuggets and simply eat one or two every time you feel hungry & that the food is nutritionally complete so I was going to try it again. I have to mention here that practically everyone in the line was by now enthralled with my story. Horrified, she asked if I'd been poisoned. I told her no, that I'd been sitting in the street licking my butt when a car hit me . From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 1 17:34:10 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 17:34:10 Subject: OT: It's hazardous here in Florida! Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060801173410.11bf8f98@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Check this out! From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 1 17:09:25 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 17:09:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Hi, I'm new... Message-ID: <200608012209.k71M9Mhf080956@keith.ezwind.net> Hi, I tried to post this last night, but used the wrong address (cctalk at classiccomp.org)! I'm new! I'm Andrew, 26, from the UK and since 2001 have developed a healthy interest in the Amiga after getting an Amiga 600. I won't bore you with it's specs (unless anyone wants me too :) ), but I have a problem in that it's possible a resistor may have become faulty (looooonng story). With all this talk of PCB's etc. I was wondering if anyone here had any advice (or experience) in replacing a resistor (if it's possible)? I use my Amiga for fun and for developing my own games (via AMOS BASIC and then compiling them) and music (thanks to Teijo Kinnunens Octamed 5). I also have recently started becoming interested in the TRS-80. I currently have 30 issues of 80 Microcomputing (#20 to #50) which I bought off a guy from Ebay Australia and they are pretty much in mint condition. Great for reading and learning about retro computers (not just the TRS-80) :) Thanks for listening and I hope to learn alot about retro computers in the coming years. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From drb at msu.edu Tue Aug 1 16:57:31 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 17:57:31 -0400 Subject: OT: It's hazardous here in Florida! In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 01 Aug 2006 17:34:10.) <3.0.6.16.20060801173410.11bf8f98@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060801173410.11bf8f98@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200608012157.k71LvVkK016511@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Long as we're o-talking about power being hazardous, here's one from Nevada that I recall seeing some time back: http://205.243.100.155/frames/mpg/500kV_Switch.mpg Descriptive text about this clip, and other similar cool stuff is at: http://205.243.100.155/frames/longarc.htm I'm unplugging all my classic gear now. :-) De From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Aug 1 16:58:29 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 16:58:29 -0500 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield Message-ID: <06c11b51ffa04748944d33be4624f1c6@valleyimplants.com> >I belive Unixware partition support is in (make menuconfig) File Systems -> >Partition Types -> PC BIOS -> Unixware slices support, and filesystem >support is under Miscellaneous -> System V/Xenix/V7/Coherent file system >support. Yes, UnixWare is (pretty straight SysV.4, [SCO's marketing would be quick to point out that it is now SysVr5 because they say so] decended in a right true line from AT&T System V release 4 through USL and Novell), but my impression was that the system in question was SCO UNIX, an entirely different beast (bears more in common with XENIX). SCO UNIX begat their OpenServer line. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 1 17:14:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 23:14:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <200608012209.k71M9Mhf080956@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Aug 1, 6 05:09:25 pm Message-ID: > > > Hi, > > I tried to post this last night, but used the > wrong address (cctalk at classiccomp.org)! > > > > > I'm new! Welcome to the list! > > I'm Andrew, 26, from the UK and since 2001 > have developed a healthy interest in the Amiga > after getting an Amiga 600. I'm also from the UK, I've been restoring classic computers for the last 20 years (and don't intend to stop now). > > I won't bore you with it's specs (unless anyone > wants me too :) ), but I have a problem in > that it's possible a resistor may have become > faulty (looooonng story). With all this talk Why do you suspect a resistor? That's one of the least likely components to fail. What esactly has happened to the machine, and what's the fault. There are many very knowledgeable hardware types here, but none of us are mind-readers :-) And if you've done something stupid, like cut the wrong resisotr when doing an upgrade, tell us _now_, not after we've spent several hours with the schematics and 'scope... > of PCB's etc. I was wondering if anyone here > had any advice (or experience) in replacing > a resistor (if it's possible)? I have lost count of the number of components I've replaced on PCBs over the years... Suffice it to say that many of us here don't worry at all about component-level repair on through-hole or normal SMD boards. It's just something we do. I've got many manuals that tell me a particular module can't be repaired. I just ignore them, and write my own repair docs if necessary... AFAIK there's nothing that difficult to replace in an A600, but I am not an expert on this machine (heck, I am not an expert on anything). [...] > I also have recently started becoming > interested in the TRS-80. I currently have 30 My second computer was a TRS-80 Model 1 (my first, FWIW, was an MK14, yes I still have both). I now have a Model 3 and Model 4, and several CoCos. And schematics, etc for all of them. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 1 17:19:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 15:19:09 -0700 Subject: OT: Purina Diet In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060801173556.1247d414@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060801173556.1247d414@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200608011519090365.47851C51@10.0.0.252> On 8/1/2006 at 5:35 PM Joe R. wrote: >Purina Diet > I was in Wal-Mart buying a large bag of Purina for my Labrador >retriever and was in line to check out... If this isn't a joke, do your dog and yourself a favor and feed your dog something better. My wife and I raise goldens and the right food can make a huge difference. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue Aug 1 17:22:41 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 15:22:41 -0700 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area In-Reply-To: <44CFB973.2030904@msm.umr.edu> References: <44CF83A1.1070000@srv.net> <44CFA79F.4010102@DakotaCom.Net> <44CFB973.2030904@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <44CFD431.2010802@DakotaCom.Net> jim stephens wrote: > Don Y wrote: > >> >> Can't you build a tarball and cat it to the printer port >> (there are tools that will let you configure another machine >> to *capture* data from the printer port). No, not PLIP, etc. >> This would be an open-loop process... you just push the data >> and *expect* the other device to capture it all correctly. >> > I would try cpio (find . -print|cpio -ov > /dev/tty) rather than > the tarball, as it will transport sym links better than a tarball, Ah, good point! I am spoiled by gtar... :-( (though my point was to use /dev/lpt for bandwidth reasons) > and the sco tar will probably not be up to snuff to deal with > it line gnu tar is now days. if space and functionality permit, > one could create a cpio file and checksum it in some way > to be sure it transfered with all the data. if nothing else, wc > the thing. > > Jim > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 1 18:05:20 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 18:05:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Hi, I'm new... Message-ID: <200608012305.k71N5Km2082162@keith.ezwind.net> Hi Tony, --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I tried to post this last night, but used the > > wrong address (cctalk at classiccomp.org)! > > > > > > > > > > I'm new! > > Welcome to the list! > Thanks >> snip << > > > > I won't bore you with it's specs (unless anyone > > wants me too :) ), but I have a problem in > > that it's possible a resistor may have become > > faulty (looooonng story). With all this talk > > Why do you suspect a resistor? That's one of the > least likely components > to fail. What esactly has happened to the machine, > and what's the fault. > There are many very knowledgeable hardware types > here, but none of us are > mind-readers :-) And if you've done something > stupid, like cut the wrong > resisotr when doing an upgrade, tell us _now_, not > after we've spent > several hours with the schematics and 'scope... Ok, here's the full story : I have had my Amiga 600 since 2001 and have added a few bits over the years: - 2.5" 4GB harddrive (I can't remember the make and model at the moment) - 1MB RAM (in trapdoor underneath) I also have a 4MB PCMCIA RAM card which is rarely used, and 2 external floppy drives (one doesn't work), with only 1 connected up. I haven't upgraded any of the kickstart or ROM chips, they are the same as when I bought it. I run WB2.05 (and am happy with it) with kickstart 37.300 I don't know the board revision number off-hand but I can find out if required. My harddrive used to power down (powersave?) after not being used for say 20/30 mins and happily power-up again whenever I tried to access the drive (via WB or via AMOS BASIC). However, around April/May this year the drive started to randomly power down and then, usually, almost instantly power back up again but WB nor AMOS could access the HD. Any attempt to do so would freeze WB or AMOS. I figured (as you would) that my harddrive was playing up, so I copied all the important files to 26 floppy disks (fun!) - 880K each, you see. A mate (Scuzz, who owns the http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com website and the equivalent yahoo group), and die-hard retro (especially Amiga) enthusiast offered to use my HD as a slave and copy the files, as best he could, to his PC and burn them to a CD for me. In the meantime I got myself another HD, which happened to be the same make as my last one, with WB3 on it (it has a Locale folder, files I didn't see on WB2 and a 68040.Lib file). This new HD has exactly the same problem :( I popped along to www.amiga.org and posted my problem up there and peeps then suggested it might be a flaky PSU. I got myself an A500 "heavy brick" model (AFAIK it's compatible and gives more power if required) by chance (I was planning to get another A600 PSU) from www.amigadeals.co.uk Everything appeared to be fixed. However, my A600 was running hotter than normal. I have always put a plastic pen above the air vent bit at the top of the machine (by the F1-F4 keys) an d it used to always be cold. With this new PSU it was warm and the underside of the Amiga 600 was hotter than normal. I posted my concerns to either Amiga.org or CAR and then someone suggested that it might be a faulty resistor. He claimed that the A600 PSU didn't have enough power to supply the machine with a faulty resistor (thus causing the HD to shutdown temporaily) and that the A500 PSU did, and the extra draw from the board (caused by the faulty resistor) could be sustained by the A500 PSU, thus causing the extra heat. (I could look up what he said and quote it tomorrow, if it helps?) Phew! I hope that all makes sense. >> snip << > [...] > > > I also have recently started becoming > > interested in the TRS-80. I currently have 30 > > My second computer was a TRS-80 Model 1 (my first, > FWIW, was an MK14, yes > I still have both). I now have a Model 3 and Model > 4, and several CoCos. > And schematics, etc for all of them. > > -tony > > Cool :) Were you ever tempted with the Model 16 or 12? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From jim.isbell at gmail.com Tue Aug 1 17:56:51 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 17:56:51 -0500 Subject: Lobo's Max-80 In-Reply-To: <200608012104.k71L40U2079416@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608012104.k71L40U2079416@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: I have one of those in my garage on the shelf. Bought it new. -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 1 18:19:40 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 18:19:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Hi, I'm new... Message-ID: <200608012319.k71NJeJ3082469@keith.ezwind.net> Sorry, forgot a few things. --- aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > Hi Tony, > > > --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > >> snip << > > > > > > > I won't bore you with it's specs (unless anyon e > > > wants me too :) ), but I have a problem in > > > that it's possible a resistor may have become > > > faulty (looooonng story). With all this talk > > > > Why do you suspect a resistor? That's one of the > > least likely components > > to fail. What esactly has happened to the machin e, > > and what's the fault. > > There are many very knowledgeable hardware types > > here, but none of us are > > mind-readers :-) And if you've done something > > stupid, like cut the wrong > > resisotr when doing an upgrade, tell us _now_, n ot > > after we've spent > > several hours with the schematics and 'scope... > > Ok, here's the full story : > > > I have had my Amiga 600 since 2001 and have > added a few bits over the years: > > - 2.5" 4GB harddrive (I can't remember the > make and model at the moment) > > - 1MB RAM (in trapdoor underneath) > > > I also have a 4MB PCMCIA RAM card which is > rarely used, and 2 external floppy drives > (one doesn't work), with only 1 connected up. > I haven't upgraded any of the kickstart or > ROM chips, they are the same as when I bought it. > > I run WB2.05 (and am happy with it) with > kickstart 37.300 > > I don't know the board revision number off-hand > but I can find out if required. > > > My harddrive used to power down (powersave?) > after not being used for say 20/30 mins and > happily power-up again whenever I tried to > access the drive (via WB or via AMOS BASIC). > > However, around April/May this year the drive > started to randomly power down and then, > usually, almost instantly power back up again > but WB nor AMOS could access the HD. Any > attempt to do so would freeze WB or AMOS. > > I figured (as you would) that my harddrive > was playing up, so I copied all the important > files to 26 floppy disks (fun!) - 880K each, > you see. > A mate (Scuzz, who owns the > http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com website > and the equivalent yahoo group), and die-hard > retro (especially Amiga) enthusiast offered > to use my HD as a slave and copy the files, (a whole host of software had been copied from floppies to the HD, including Octamed 5 and loads of instrument samples, aswell as loads of images for playing with in the future) > as best he could, to his PC and burn them > to a CD for me. > > In the meantime I got myself another HD, > which happened to be the same make as my > last one, with WB3 on it (it has a Locale folder, > files I didn't see on WB2 and a 68040.Lib file). > This new HD has exactly the same problem :( > > I popped along to www.amiga.org and posted > my problem up there and peeps then suggested > it might be a flaky PSU. I got myself an > A500 "heavy brick" model (AFAIK it's compatible > and gives more power if required) by chance > (I was planning to get another A600 PSU) > from www.amigadeals.co.uk > > Everything appeared to be fixed. However, my > A600 was running hotter than normal. I have > always put a plastic pen above the air vent > bit at the top of the machine (by the F1-F4 keys) an > d it used to always be cold. With this > new PSU it was warm and the underside of the > Amiga 600 was hotter than normal. > > I posted my concerns to either Amiga.org or > CAR and then someone suggested that it might > be a faulty resistor. He claimed that the > A600 PSU didn't have enough power to supply > the machine with a faulty resistor (thus > causing the HD to shutdown temporaily) and > that the A500 PSU did, and the extra draw from > the board (caused by the faulty resistor) > could be sustained by the A500 PSU, thus > causing the extra heat. > (I could look up what he said and quote it > tomorrow, if it helps?) > > > Phew! > > I hope that all makes sense. > Forgot to add: Scuzz hasn't had any problems with my original HD on his A600. and here's the reason I thought it might be a resistor: " The different PSU would not cause overheating inside the A600. Since the PSU is located separately, the heat it dissipates would be outside of the machine. Even though the PSU is capable of supplying more power, it will only output the power that is needed. I would take off the top lid of the computer and try to pinpoint where exactly the heat is coming from. There could be some components that might have shorted out and is causing the power supply to output more current. This could actually be your original problem. The old A600 PSU probably wasn't able to handle this current draw but the more powerful A500 PSU could. If something shorted out (like a resistor) it would cause other components to heat up and that might be what your seeing. Amiga install any fuses in the computer I have no clue. Wouldn't have cost that much extra." Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Aug 1 18:24:14 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 19:24:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Purina Diet In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060801173556.1247d414@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20060801232414.BD6DA5811D@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Joe R. > > > story. Horrified, she asked if I'd been poisoned. I told her no, that > I'd been sitting in the street licking my butt when a car hit me . You needed to end with "Here's your sign!". Cheers, Bryan From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Aug 1 18:42:13 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 18:42:13 -0500 Subject: Hi, I'm new... Message-ID: <62a9b737779a4af28bb1b20fa2b67b36@valleyimplants.com> I'd see if there was some way to put a voltmeter on the power coming in. If the computer draws more than the supply can put out, the supply voltage will drop. I've never seen a resistor short- I've had several caps short out on me, though. It's evident when that happens, though - there's usually a bang and puff of smoke. I'd expect the smoke if anything shorted out, the components usually aren't rated highly enough to survive a dead short. Usually it's some passive that goes, though. From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Aug 1 19:40:44 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 20:40:44 -0400 Subject: OT: Purina Diet In-Reply-To: <200608011519090365.47851C51@10.0.0.252> References: <3.0.6.16.20060801173556.1247d414@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200608011519090365.47851C51@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44CFF48C.8090602@jcwren.com> No kidding. Purina is some of the worst crap out there. I think the only thing worse is Old Roy brand. --jc Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/1/2006 at 5:35 PM Joe R. wrote: > > >> Purina Diet >> I was in Wal-Mart buying a large bag of Purina for my Labrador >> retriever and was in line to check out... >> > > If this isn't a joke, do your dog and yourself a favor and feed your dog > something better. My wife and I raise goldens and the right food can make > a huge difference. > > > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 1 20:19:13 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 20:19:13 -0500 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area References: <44CF83A1.1070000@srv.net> <44CFA79F.4010102@DakotaCom.Net><44CFB973.2030904@msm.umr.edu> <44CFD431.2010802@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <00c501c6b5d1$ac4ce270$6700a8c0@BILLING> What I was thinking.... I did contact Sellam on this since I'm only a few hours away. But just for the lists discussion... I was pondering approaching this with a QIC-80 (DC2120) drive that sits on a floppy controller. Those are quick to hook up, and if my really feeble memory serves me even REALLY old SCO unix supported QIC-80 type drives. I still have a working Colorado Jumbo-250 tape drive (and FC10 controller!) from my BBS-running days. This would seem to be the least disturbing option to the SCO box to add. I can't remember if SCO supported the drive only on the standard floppy controller, or if it only supported it on the FC10. Ah well. Maybe an option. Jay West From ken at seefried.com Tue Aug 1 20:49:32 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 21:49:32 -0400 Subject: OT: Purina Diet In-Reply-To: <200608012315.k71NExiG036379@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608012315.k71NExiG036379@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20060802014932.6666.qmail@seefried.com> > Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 17:35:56 > From: "Joe R." > > Purina Diet > I was in Wal-Mart buying a large bag of Purina for my Labrador > retriever and was in line to check out. A woman behind me asked > if I had a dog? On impulse, I told her that no, I was starting The > Purina Diet again http://www.angryman.ca/monkey.html P.S. - Sorry to feed the OT thread... From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 1 22:01:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 20:01:58 -0700 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area In-Reply-To: <00c501c6b5d1$ac4ce270$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <44CF83A1.1070000@srv.net> <44CFA79F.4010102@DakotaCom.Net> <44CFB973.2030904@msm.umr.edu> <44CFD431.2010802@DakotaCom.Net> <00c501c6b5d1$ac4ce270$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200608012001580661.48880702@10.0.0.252> On 8/1/2006 at 8:19 PM Jay West wrote: >I was pondering approaching this with a QIC-80 (DC2120) drive... Ick. Floppy-tape--slow and unreliable. Surely the SCO box must be capable (or already have) a SCSI controller to hang a DLT or DAT from! If you're going to be spending your valuable time, might as well use something that's reasonably fast and has read-after-write verification. Since SCSI tape is a pretty well standardized item, it should work okay with a minimum of fiddling. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 1 22:14:23 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 22:14:23 -0500 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area References: <44CF83A1.1070000@srv.net> <44CFA79F.4010102@DakotaCom.Net><44CFB973.2030904@msm.umr.edu> <44CFD431.2010802@DakotaCom.Net><00c501c6b5d1$ac4ce270$6700a8c0@BILLING> <200608012001580661.48880702@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <002801c6b5e1$c0d93fd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Chuck wrote... > Ick. Floppy-tape--slow and unreliable. > > Surely the SCO box must be capable (or already have) a SCSI controller to > hang a DLT or DAT from! I only need the floppy tape to get the data across once, speed is not an issue. But moreover, it all depends on what is already built in to the kernel, and as I recall, SCO has the QIC-80 driver built in by default. That tape drive on the machine that died may well be QIC-02 and not SCSI. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 1 22:29:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 20:29:24 -0700 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area In-Reply-To: <002801c6b5e1$c0d93fd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <44CF83A1.1070000@srv.net> <44CFA79F.4010102@DakotaCom.Net> <44CFB973.2030904@msm.umr.edu> <44CFD431.2010802@DakotaCom.Net> <00c501c6b5d1$ac4ce270$6700a8c0@BILLING> <200608012001580661.48880702@10.0.0.252> <002801c6b5e1$c0d93fd0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200608012029240409.48A12364@10.0.0.252> On 8/1/2006 at 10:14 PM Jay West wrote: >But moreover, it all depends on what is already built in to the kernel, >and as I recall, SCO has the QIC-80 driver built in by default. That tape >drive on the machine that died may well be QIC-02 and not SCSI. Good point. Maybe a Travan TR-1 might be a little more reliable. I still shudder when I think of the nighmare of the DC-2000 floppy tapes. If it's a really old box, it probably expects something like Cipher 525 drives. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 2 01:04:26 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 23:04:26 -0700 Subject: imsai 8080 power switch In-Reply-To: <2628.86.139.195.23.1154457723.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: >From: "Lee Davison" > >Hello Dwight > > > Please try at least one of two experiments. Either actually measure > > with an inductive load or do a simulation. For a transformer, zero > > cross is the worst time to start. > >Why? What do you expect to happen? At zero crossing there is no volts >and no current will flow. The current will start to increase as the >voltage increases and continue to do so until the next zero cross point. It isn't the current at the turn on that is the problem. It is that the curtrent builds in the inductor for the full half cycle instead of the 1/4 cycle that happens once the inductor has reached the continuous state. Normally at the continuous state, current is just reaching 0 at the peak voltage, for a pure inductor. If one turns on the voltage at this point, the current will follow the normal continuous cycle current. I know it seems counter intuitive but think about it. For the pure inductor, at the peak voltage, the inductor has no stored energy and can it would be as though it was already at its normal cyclic state if one started the voltage at this point in time. > > > Don't confuse steady state action with the first cycle. The response > > is not the same. > >Agreed. At the first cycle there is no energy stored in the inductor so >switching it on at zero cross gives a circuit with no stored energy. But that first half cycle is pushing current into the inductor for not just 1/4 cycle but a full half cycle. > > > With an inductive load, this is at 90 degees, or peak > > voltage. This is also the best time to turn it on. > >If you turn on an inductor at peak voltage you will get a magnetization >offset that may take many cycles (approx LR) to decay. This gives a peak >current that is much greater that that from switching on at the zero >cross point and is clearly not the best point to turn it on. If it were a pure inductor, as stated above, the magnetic field that is created by the current in the inductor would be following the normal current and therefore the normal magnetic field. It is the zero cross starting that would put the current offset into the inductor that would have to decay over time. Remember, the inductor has zero magnetic field when the current is zero, this happens at the peak voltage in the normal cycle so starting at this time would cause the least current offset. It is only at the peak voltage that one can start the signal without causing a current offset that you describe. Dwight > >Lee. > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 2 01:08:49 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 23:08:49 -0700 Subject: imsai 8080 power switch In-Reply-To: <2628.86.139.195.23.1154457723.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: >From: "Lee Davison" > >Hello Dwight > > > Please try at least one of two experiments. Either actually measure > > with an inductive load or do a simulation. For a transformer, zero > > cross is the worst time to start. > >Why? What do you expect to happen? At zero crossing there is no volts >and no current will flow. The current will start to increase as the >voltage increases and continue to do so until the next zero cross point. It isn't the current at the turn on that is the problem. It is that the curtrent builds in the inductor for the full half cycle instead of the 1/4 cycle that happens once the inductor has reached the continuous state. Normally at the continuous state, current is just reaching 0 at the peak voltage, for a pure inductor. If one turns on the voltage at this point, the current will follow the normal continuous cycle current. I know it seems counter intuitive but think about it. For the pure inductor, at the peak voltage, the inductor has no stored energy and can it would be as though it was already at its normal cyclic state if one started the voltage at this point in time. > > > Don't confuse steady state action with the first cycle. The response > > is not the same. > >Agreed. At the first cycle there is no energy stored in the inductor so >switching it on at zero cross gives a circuit with no stored energy. But that first half cycle is pushing current into the inductor for not just 1/4 cycle but a full half cycle. > > > With an inductive load, this is at 90 degees, or peak > > voltage. This is also the best time to turn it on. > >If you turn on an inductor at peak voltage you will get a magnetization >offset that may take many cycles (approx LR) to decay. This gives a peak >current that is much greater that that from switching on at the zero >cross point and is clearly not the best point to turn it on. If it were a pure inductor, as stated above, the magnetic field that is created by the current in the inductor would be following the normal current and therefore the normal magnetic field. It is the zero cross starting that would put the current offset into the inductor that would have to decay over time. Remember, the inductor has zero magnetic field when the current is zero, this happens at the peak voltage in the normal cycle so starting at this time would cause the least current offset. It is only at the peak voltage that one can start the signal without causing a current offset that you describe. Dwight > >Lee. > From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Aug 2 04:17:59 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 06:17:59 -0300 Subject: Hi, I'm new... References: <200608012319.k71NJeJ3082469@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <005001c6b614$9d369900$04fea8c0@alpha> > I would take off the top lid of the computer > and try to pinpoint where exactly the heat is > coming from. There could be some components > that might have shorted out and is causing > the power supply to output more current. This Oh, the "loved" a600... These have a very common fault - Capacitors. They leak and play havoc on your system. Dunno where you live, but in Brazil it is very very very common. People sez it is because of the (high) temperatures around. But I'm 90% sure your problem has to do with caps. I'd suggest you another A600 or a 1200 if you can get one (I had a 600 and now have a 1200, love that puter!!!). Take a look at the "amigo" on www.tabajara-labs.com.br :oD See ya Alexandre Souza From kelly at catcorner.org Wed Aug 2 07:47:56 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 08:47:56 -0400 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> Jay wrote... > >Chuck wrote... >> Ick. Floppy-tape--slow and unreliable. >> >> Surely the SCO box must be capable (or already have) a SCSI controller to >> hang a DLT or DAT from! > >I only need the floppy tape to get the data across once, speed is not an >issue. > >But moreover, it all depends on what is already built in to the kernel, and >as I recall, SCO has the QIC-80 driver built in by default. That tape drive >on the machine that died may well be QIC-02 and not SCSI. > >Jay I shut off my last SCO Unix box in February. My recollection is that QIC-80 required the FC10, and it was not built into the kernel. You had to at least recompile, and it may have required a special disk from the manufacturer of the FC10 (colorado?). QIC-02 support was easier if you have any of the drive/controller combos around. If they still have a floppy drive, and you tell me the version of the unix (send uname -A), I'll see if I have the TCP/IP install set. If so, I can image it and send it along. It supported a limited number of cards, but the 3c509 was one of them and they are still abundent on the surplus market. Kelly From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 2 08:27:56 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 08:27:56 -0500 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <00ab01c6b637$77f6b030$6700a8c0@BILLING> Kelly wrote.... > I shut off my last SCO Unix box in February. Your experience with it is more recent than mine then! > My recollection is that QIC-80 required the FC10, and it was not built > into the kernel. You had to at least recompile, and it may have required a > special disk from the manufacturer of the FC10 (colorado?). QIC-02 support > was easier if you have any of the drive/controller combos around. I do have the FC10. I am pretty sure I have the SCO drivers v2.59 for the Jumbo250 (originally Colorado Memory Systems or CMS, later acquired by HP). I actually do have a QIC02 drive somewhere, probably have a controller lurking about, but those are of suspect functionality. > If they still have a floppy drive, and you tell me the version of the unix > (send uname -A), I'll see if I have the TCP/IP install set. If so, I can > image it and send it along. It supported a limited number of cards, but > the 3c509 was one of them and they are still abundent on the surplus > market. Didn't installing TCP/IP require one of the infamous 'pink cards' which would also require a phone-in activation? Jay From kelly at catcorner.org Wed Aug 2 08:44:22 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:44:22 -0400 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374DB@MEOW.catcorner.org> > Didn't installing TCP/IP require one of the infamous 'pink cards' which > would also require a phone-in activation? > > Jay The one I have uses the "Yellow Card" method, and just needs two long obscure codes. Contact me off list if these are of interest. Kelly From steerex at mindspring.com Wed Aug 2 11:26:07 2006 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 12:26:07 -0400 Subject: Not classic, but free: HP-UX Message-ID: <01C6B62E.D54704F0@MAGGIE> Scott, If you haven't found 10.20 for 800's yet, let me know. I'm sure I have an extra set *somewhere. See ya, SteveRob steerex[at]mindspring[dot]com ---------- From: Scott Quinn Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 3:03 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Not classic, but free: HP-UX They don't skimp, either - I was expecting HP-UX 11i base, but they send out the Mission Critical OE. I've got it going for a trial install in the G70. It's clicking along just fine so far. I think when I'm done I'll investigate HP-UX 10.20 for 800s (if I can find it), perhaps a bit faster on the old hardware. Other option would be the base 11i. For now, I'm throwing the kitchen sink at it to see what happens (other than running out of disk space - 4GB (binary) isn't quite enough for everything... Question for the HP 9000/800 people - what is the eqivalent of the VAX "break to console" function (either terminal-break or panel halt+halt)? (or the Sun L1-A) on these old beasts? It takes quite a long time to bring up the PDC console from power-on. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 2 11:05:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 09:05:43 -0700 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <200608020905430571.4B558E57@10.0.0.252> Maybe it's been mentioned (apologies if so), but can one simply tar using the printer port as an output device? Capturing the output shouldn't be too difficult. Cheers, Chuck From marvin at rain.org Wed Aug 2 11:07:20 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 09:07:20 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/05 Message-ID: <44D0CDB8.C7CCA07F@rain.org> I'm just curious; I picked up a PDP 11/05 last weekend, but instead of the processor cards laying on their sides, these were standing up. This resulted in a configuration with two other plastic covers (one about 1" high below the standard 11/05 front panel, and the other about 7" above the front panel.) Is this a standard or optional chassis for the 11/05? I also picked up the dual cassette drive (no cassettes or software yet though), so it looks like a nice little system. From steerex at mindspring.com Wed Aug 2 11:35:17 2006 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 12:35:17 -0400 Subject: Not classic, but free: HP-UX Message-ID: <01C6B630.1CC66F90@MAGGIE> Hey guys, OK... I went to the site and completed the application. At one point during the "signup" process, the server choked and could not complete the process. I never did recieve a "comfirmation" screen or a DOWNLOAD / CD option . I did however receive an email with a "software delivery receipt" including the download key. When I went to the URL, I was given an option to download the app. I'm using dialup so downloading is not an option. Do I have to complete a different request or will the CD's automatically be sent? Thanks, SteveRob From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 2 12:10:38 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 17:10:38 +0000 Subject: VERSAbus Message-ID: <44D0DC8E.5060500@yahoo.co.uk> Did anyone other than Motorola use VERSAbus in their products? I get the impression that a few companies bought into the standard, but I'm not sure if it had morphed into VME before anyone seriously used it. (I picked up a Motorola 68000 SBC earlier that has a VERSAbus interface on it, hence the interest) cheers Jules -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Aug 2 11:41:00 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 09:41:00 -0700 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area In-Reply-To: <200608020905430571.4B558E57@10.0.0.252> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200608020905430571.4B558E57@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D0D59C.4020704@msm.umr.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: >Maybe it's been mentioned (apologies if so), but can one simply tar using >the printer port as an output device? Capturing the output shouldn't be >too difficult. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > Good point. I think that tar to a device requires a block device as a target, otherwise the tar would have to be staged to the local media, such as a hard drive or floppy, then streamed out thru a character device. I mentioned a cpio method, (find . -print|cpio -ov > /dev/lp) (dev may vary) which would go to either a block or character device. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 2 11:45:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 09:45:56 -0700 Subject: VERSAbus In-Reply-To: <44D0DC8E.5060500@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44D0DC8E.5060500@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200608020945560430.4B7A5F1A@10.0.0.252> On 8/2/2006 at 5:10 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >Did anyone other than Motorola use VERSAbus in their products? I get the >impressi that a few companies bought into the standard, but I'm not sure >if it had morphed into VME before anyone seriously used it. IIRC, Back in the early 80's, Moto tried to get second-sourcers Signetics and Mostek (IIRC) to adopt Versabus, but they wouldn't sign on, most notably because the VersaBus card size was relatively huge. VME appears to be the compromise that took Versabus and shrunk it to the Eurocard size. Cheers, Chuck From Steve at OceanRobots.net Wed Aug 2 11:53:26 2006 From: Steve at OceanRobots.net (Steve Stutman) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 12:53:26 -0400 Subject: Early RAID Message-ID: <44D0D886.4070202@OceanRobots.net> Hi, Posted a few days ago looking for early, circa 1987 implementations of RAID beyond RAID0 and RAID1. In my research, I've come across a fellow named Jan Janku, who proposed some advanced ideas in 1986. Does anyone know of him or where I might contact him? TIA for any response, steve From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 2 11:52:10 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 12:52:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area In-Reply-To: <44D0D59C.4020704@msm.umr.edu> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200608020905430571.4B558E57@10.0.0.252> <44D0D59C.4020704@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200608021655.MAA21269@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Good point. I think that tar to a device requires a block device as > a target, Not in my experience; I've run tar to tape devices, which are character special devices, often enough. (Of course, this is not to say that there don't exist tar implementations bizarre enough to insist on block devices. Just that I've not run into any, and any claim that "tar" (to the extent that "tar" is a single thing) requires them is false.) And tar definitely knows how to write to a pipe; you could always do tar cf - ... | cat > /dev/... though I suspect most tar implementations will work fine with tar cf - ... > /dev/... even if they won't accept tar cf /dev/... ... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 2 12:17:14 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 13:17:14 -0400 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <200608021317.14737.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 02 August 2006 08:47 am, Kelly Leavitt wrote: > It supported a limited number of cards, but the 3c509 was one of them and > they are still abundent on the surplus market. I have a fair number of these on hand here, if anybody needs some. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From useddec at gmail.com Wed Aug 2 13:07:54 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 13:07:54 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: <44D0CDB8.C7CCA07F@rain.org> Message-ID: <000d01c6b65e$952be220$4200a8c0@main> The 11/05 and 11/10 came in at least 3 different boxes and at least 4 different backplanes. If you have specific questions, reply or send me your phone # and a good time to call. Thanks, Paul Anderson 217-586-5361 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Johnston Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 11:07 AM To: ClassicCmp Subject: PDP-11/05 I'm just curious; I picked up a PDP 11/05 last weekend, but instead of the processor cards laying on their sides, these were standing up. This resulted in a configuration with two other plastic covers (one about 1" high below the standard 11/05 front panel, and the other about 7" above the front panel.) Is this a standard or optional chassis for the 11/05? I also picked up the dual cassette drive (no cassettes or software yet though), so it looks like a nice little system. From jclang at notms.net Wed Aug 2 13:12:47 2006 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 14:12:47 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: <44D0CDB8.C7CCA07F@rain.org> References: <44D0CDB8.C7CCA07F@rain.org> Message-ID: <06080214124700.02056@bell> On Wednesday 02 August 2006 12:07, you wrote: > I'm just curious; I picked up a PDP 11/05 last weekend, but instead of the > processor cards laying on their sides, these were standing up. This > resulted in a configuration with two other plastic covers (one about 1" > high below the standard 11/05 front panel, and the other about 7" above the > front panel.) Is this a standard or optional chassis for the 11/05? I also > picked up the dual cassette drive (no cassettes or software yet though), so > it looks like a nice little system. Sounds like you are describing the 11/05 10" system unit. It's a standard chassis. 11/05S IIRC It has a 1 rack unit panel below the front panel. And a 3 rack unit panel above the front panel. It has the power supplies along the right side (if you're facing the front panel) A 9 slot backplane and room for 2 or 3 additional 4 slot backplanes. sound right? The docs for it are on bitsavers joe lang From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed Aug 2 13:32:27 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 11:32:27 -0700 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area In-Reply-To: <200608020905430571.4B558E57@10.0.0.252> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200608020905430571.4B558E57@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D0EFBB.5050909@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Maybe it's been mentioned (apologies if so), but can one simply tar using > the printer port as an output device? Capturing the output shouldn't be > too difficult. Yes, I mentioned that a few posts back -- though Jim reminded me that tar doesn't always handle symlinks well. It seems the most portable way of dealing with this problem on a variety of boxes -- since all you need on the "source" is the ability to cat(1) the tarball to a printer port. Unfortunately, you then need *one* box with hardware suitable to capture the incoming bytestream (i.e. *not* an SPP). Ideally, the source box would have MD5 or some other hash available so you could gain some reassurance that the received image agreed with the sent image. From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Aug 2 13:24:45 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 14:24:45 -0400 Subject: Early RAID In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Aug 2006 12:53:26 EDT." <44D0D886.4070202@OceanRobots.net> Message-ID: <200608021824.k72IOkKj008484@mwave.heeltoe.com> Steve Stutman wrote: >Hi, > >Posted a few days ago looking for early, circa 1987 implementations of >RAID beyond RAID0 and RAID1. > >In my research, I've come across a fellow named Jan Janku, who proposed >some advanced ideas in 1986. You might look into what Thinking Machines was doing. I thought they had some massively parallel disk setups in the mid '80 for the CM-2. Wiki says they did something called DataVault in 1985. (mumble. i never liked the idea of simd. but i did like danny's tinkertoy tic tac toe machine :-) -brad From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 2 14:03:41 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 12:03:41 -0700 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area In-Reply-To: <44D0EFBB.5050909@DakotaCom.Net> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200608020905430571.4B558E57@10.0.0.252> <44D0EFBB.5050909@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200608021203410955.4BF87D55@10.0.0.252> On 8/2/2006 at 11:32 AM Don Y wrote: >Unfortunately, you then need *one* box with hardware suitable >to capture the incoming bytestream (i.e. *not* an SPP). I know this is a vintage list, but at a minimum, PS/2-style bidirectional parallel ports have been around for a very long time, so this shouldn't be a problem. Even if you had an old XT, printer and monochrome adapter cards can usually be modified to operate in bi-directional mode. After that, it's just the cable and a bit of software on the receiving side. >Ideally, the source box would have MD5 or some other hash >available so you could gain some reassurance that the >received image agreed with the sent image. CRC-32 would probably do if MD5 wasn't available, and it's short enough that if you had to key the C source in (assuming that the SCO box has a C compiler), it wouldn't be an onerous job. You could probably do that while the transfer was running. Failing that, you could transfer the tarball twice and compare the two files. A miscompare wouldn't tell you which was bad, but it would at least indicate that something had gone wrong. Cheers, Chuck From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Aug 2 14:24:38 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 12:24:38 -0700 Subject: OT: In-Reply-To: <200608021203410955.4BF87D55@10.0.0.252> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200608020905430571.4B558E57@10.0.0.252> <44D0EFBB.5050909@DakotaCom.Net> <200608021203410955.4BF87D55@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D0FBF6.3070903@msm.umr.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 8/2/2006 at 11:32 AM Don Y wrote: > > > >>Unfortunately, you then need *one* box with hardware suitable >>to capture the incoming bytestream (i.e. *not* an SPP). >> >> > >I know this is a vintage list, but at a minimum, PS/2-style bidirectional >parallel ports have been around for a very long time, so this shouldn't be >a problem. Even if you had an old XT, printer and monochrome adapter cards >can usually be modified to operate in bi-directional mode. > >After that, it's just the cable and a bit of software on the receiving >side. > > I have a "vintage" IBM PS/2 data migration facility box with appropriate dates, so it is not too off topic. Anyone out there with a recipe or howto pointer to do this with various os varieties? Say linux 2 linux, or linux to dos? Also, I do not believe that the output to the printer port that Don suggested assumed the protocol that the parallel port data coupler uses is available. To fork the thread, I would be interested in whether the SCO parallel drivers might support the parallel port in such a way as to allow such coupling, (reads get data from port that is). Also what is required to do this simply or other wise on Linux (mentioned above). Even better, is there a small program to do this to a dos box, that can be used on dos / old windows boxes. Laplink had cables for the serial port, I don't recall if it had a parallel version that was reliable, as far as dos to dos data transfer. jim From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed Aug 2 14:24:47 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 12:24:47 -0700 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area In-Reply-To: <200608021203410955.4BF87D55@10.0.0.252> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200608020905430571.4B558E57@10.0.0.252> <44D0EFBB.5050909@DakotaCom.Net> <200608021203410955.4BF87D55@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D0FBFF.3040007@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/2/2006 at 11:32 AM Don Y wrote: > >> Unfortunately, you then need *one* box with hardware suitable >> to capture the incoming bytestream (i.e. *not* an SPP). > > I know this is a vintage list, but at a minimum, PS/2-style bidirectional > parallel ports have been around for a very long time, so this shouldn't be > a problem. Even if you had an old XT, printer and monochrome adapter cards > can usually be modified to operate in bi-directional mode. > > After that, it's just the cable and a bit of software on the receiving > side. Or, a small bit of hardware to mux the 8 data lines onto the incoming status lines (SPP). I.e. you only need *one* of these and *one* machine with this capability to handle a variety of "source" machines. >> Ideally, the source box would have MD5 or some other hash >> available so you could gain some reassurance that the >> received image agreed with the sent image. > > CRC-32 would probably do if MD5 wasn't available, and it's short enough > that if you had to key the C source in (assuming that the SCO box has a C > compiler), it wouldn't be an onerous job. You could probably do that > while the transfer was running. Yes. Anything that provides a reasonably unambiguos "signature" > Failing that, you could transfer the tarball twice and compare the two > files. A miscompare wouldn't tell you which was bad, but it would at least > indicate that something had gone wrong. I'd shy away from that. In addition to the issue of "what happens if you get N different results (N>2)", you are also vulnerable to any problems in the *mechanism*. E.g., if the I/F was not 8 bit clean, you would *think* you had a successful transfer and actually lost all the MSB's. Likewise if a signal is shorted in the cable, it will consistently yield the same (wrong!) results. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed Aug 2 14:30:54 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 12:30:54 -0700 Subject: OT: In-Reply-To: <44D0FBF6.3070903@msm.umr.edu> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200608020905430571.4B558E57@10.0.0.252> <44D0EFBB.5050909@DakotaCom.Net> <200608021203410955.4BF87D55@10.0.0.252> <44D0FBF6.3070903@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <44D0FD6E.4020200@DakotaCom.Net> jim stephens wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 8/2/2006 at 11:32 AM Don Y wrote: >> >>> Unfortunately, you then need *one* box with hardware suitable >>> to capture the incoming bytestream (i.e. *not* an SPP). >> >> I know this is a vintage list, but at a minimum, PS/2-style bidirectional >> parallel ports have been around for a very long time, so this >> shouldn't be >> a problem. Even if you had an old XT, printer and monochrome adapter >> cards >> can usually be modified to operate in bi-directional mode. >> >> After that, it's just the cable and a bit of software on the receiving >> side. >> > I have a "vintage" IBM PS/2 data migration facility box with appropriate > dates, so it is > not too off topic. Anyone out there with a recipe or howto pointer to > do this with various > os varieties? Say linux 2 linux, or linux to dos? > > Also, I do not believe that the output to the printer port that Don > suggested assumed the > protocol that the parallel port data coupler uses is available. No. I am assuming *no* protocol! I.e. the source machine just *pushes* bytes out the parallel port. Leave it to the receiving device to figure out how to get them *in* and some "external" mechanism to verify that the transfer was error-free (e.g., the MD5, CRC, "send it twice" ideas). The whole point of my proposal was to not require *anything* on the source machine other than the ability to cat(1) to /dev/lpt in some fashion. All of the work is done on the other end -- by the recipient. And, you only need *one* box with that capability (hardware/software)... presumably also having the ability to move the file that it receives out to the network, onto other storage media, etc. > To fork the thread, I would be interested in whether the SCO parallel > drivers might > support the parallel port in such a way as to allow such coupling, > (reads get data from port that is). This is what I was avoiding! > Also what is required to do this simply or other wise on Linux > (mentioned above). > Even better, is there a small program to do this to a dos box, that can > be used > on dos / old windows boxes. > > Laplink had cables for the serial port, I don't recall if it had a > parallel version > that was reliable, as far as dos to dos data transfer. From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 2 14:46:27 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 15:46:27 -0400 Subject: OT: In-Reply-To: <44D0FBF6.3070903@msm.umr.edu> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200608021203410955.4BF87D55@10.0.0.252> <44D0FBF6.3070903@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200608021546.27310.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 02 August 2006 03:24 pm, jim stephens wrote: > Laplink had cables for the serial port, I don't recall if it had a > parallel version that was reliable, as far as dos to dos data transfer. I can't speak to the reliability of it, but it did indeed have a parallel option, which of course required a different special cable. Never used it here though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 2 16:02:55 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 16:02:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: VERSAbus Message-ID: <200608022102.k72L2srv009958@keith.ezwind.net> Hi Jules, --- Jules Richardson wrote: > >> snip << > cheers > > Jules > > -- > A. Because it destroys the natural flow of > conversation. > Q. What's wrong with top posting ? > hehe, I couldn't agree with you more. Unfortunately those peeps that use Mycrosaft Outlook (or other PC email software) are forced to do so. Thankfully, I'm not on PC (I'm on my Sega Dreamcast) and usually either bottom post, or inbetween post :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed Aug 2 16:02:29 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 14:02:29 -0700 Subject: OT: In-Reply-To: <200608021546.27310.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200608021203410955.4BF87D55@10.0.0.252> <44D0FBF6.3070903@msm.umr.edu> <200608021546.27310.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44D112E5.6020604@DakotaCom.Net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 02 August 2006 03:24 pm, jim stephens wrote: >> Laplink had cables for the serial port, I don't recall if it had a >> parallel version that was reliable, as far as dos to dos data transfer. > > I can't speak to the reliability of it, but it did indeed have a parallel > option, which of course required a different special cable. Never used it > here though. IIRC, there were two "bright colored" cables -- one for parallel and one for serial. I have an *8* headed "laplink" (lowercase L) cable but, IIRC, they are just various combinations of connectors/genders and pinouts (but still a serial cable). From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 2 16:08:39 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 14:08:39 -0700 Subject: OT: In-Reply-To: <200608021546.27310.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200608021203410955.4BF87D55@10.0.0.252> <44D0FBF6.3070903@msm.umr.edu> <200608021546.27310.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608021408390635.4C6AE42C@10.0.0.252> On 8/2/2006 at 3:46 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >I can't speak to the reliability of it, but it did indeed have a parallel >option, which of course required a different special cable. Never used >it here though. I have a Laplink "octopus" (well, a sexapus, anyway), one DB9 female, DB25 female and DB25 male on each end. Handles both serial and parallel "nibble" transfers. The thing will also work wtih the Microsoft Interlink. If you've got a bidirectional printer port on the receiving PC, there's no software handshake necessary--the sender asserts STROBE and the receiver acknowledges it with ACK. In this case, SCO can't tell the receiving PC from a plain old parallel interface printer. Transfers are 8 bits at a time. If you fool much with vintage PC's with parallel ports, you really should have some capture software kicking around-. Often, the printer port is the easiest and fastest way to get data out of a system that has no other networking capability. Anent that, I still have a copy and manual for "The $25 network" that imprelments rather primitive peer-to-peer printer and serial port networking over DOS. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 2 16:17:50 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 17:17:50 -0400 Subject: OT: In-Reply-To: <44D112E5.6020604@DakotaCom.Net> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200608021546.27310.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D112E5.6020604@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200608021717.50406.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 02 August 2006 05:02 pm, Don Y wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Wednesday 02 August 2006 03:24 pm, jim stephens wrote: > >> Laplink had cables for the serial port, I don't recall if it had a > >> parallel version that was reliable, as far as dos to dos data transfer. > > > > I can't speak to the reliability of it, but it did indeed have a > > parallel option, which of course required a different special cable. > > Never used it here though. > > IIRC, there were two "bright colored" cables -- one for parallel > and one for serial. > > I have an *8* headed "laplink" (lowercase L) cable but, IIRC, > they are just various combinations of connectors/genders and > pinouts (but still a serial cable). That's a bit much. I have a couple of 9-to-25 pin size adapters that I need to check the connections on, and am not sure I have them in both genders. And some connector shells that'll take a 25-pin connector at each end, which I got seeing them as being handy to make adapters with. But the need for such stuff never arrived, so I never got around to building them, except for a couple of gender changers. If I ever do it'll be easy enough to have one test cable that's wired straight through and then make up any adapters I might need. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 2 16:20:25 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 17:20:25 -0400 Subject: OT: In-Reply-To: <200608021408390635.4C6AE42C@10.0.0.252> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200608021546.27310.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608021408390635.4C6AE42C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608021720.25878.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 02 August 2006 05:08 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The thing will also work wtih the Microsoft Interlink. Interesting, I never did get around to verifying whether those were the same wiring or not. <...> > Anent that, I still have a copy and manual for "The $25 network" that > imprelments rather primitive peer-to-peer printer and serial port > networking over DOS. I've always wondered how well that worked. And what sort of protocol it used. But I'm more interested in finding such for earlier stuff yet, like a similar product that I've heard of that would work with CP/M boxes, of which I have a number. Very little hardware was ever standardized with most of those, but just about all of them had at least one serial port, many had two. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 2 16:42:45 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 16:42:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Hi, I'm new... Message-ID: <200608022142.k72LghC7010908@keith.ezwind.net> --- Alexandre Souza wrote: > > I would take off the top lid of the computer > > and try to pinpoint where exactly the heat is > > coming from. There could be some components > > that might have shorted out and is causing > > the power supply to output more current. This > > Oh, the "loved" a600... > > These have a very common fault - Capacitors. > They leak and play havoc on > your system. Dunno where you live, but in Brazil i t > is very very very > common. People sez it is because of the (high) > temperatures around. But I'm > 90% sure your problem has to do with caps. > > I'd suggest you another A600 or a 1200 if you > can get one (I had a 600 > and now have a 1200, love that puter!!!). Take a > look at the "amigo" on > www.tabajara-labs.com.br :oD > > See ya > Alexandre Souza > Is Gayle a capacitor? If not, what does she do? Thanks for the advice. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed Aug 2 16:44:12 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 14:44:12 -0700 Subject: OT: In-Reply-To: <200608021717.50406.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200608021546.27310.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D112E5.6020604@DakotaCom.Net> <200608021717.50406.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44D11CAC.7070306@DakotaCom.Net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 02 August 2006 05:02 pm, Don Y wrote: >> I have an *8* headed "laplink" (lowercase L) cable but, IIRC, >> they are just various combinations of connectors/genders and >> pinouts (but still a serial cable). > > That's a bit much. > > I have a couple of 9-to-25 pin size adapters that I need to check the > connections on, and am not sure I have them in both genders. And some > connector shells that'll take a 25-pin connector at each end, which I got > seeing them as being handy to make adapters with. But the need for such > stuff never arrived, so I never got around to building them, except for a > couple of gender changers. If I ever do it'll be easy enough to have one > test cable that's wired straight through and then make up any adapters I > might need. I have a box of 25 pin M-F DB25 cables wired 1<->1. And, a small box of "widgets" -- little 2x2" clamshells with a pair of DB25's on each end. Sex varies -- some are M-M, some F-F, some M-F. I wire each of these widgets for a specific purpose: - gender changers (M->F, F->M) - "null modem", "null terminal" :-/ - PLIP - Sun "port A/port B" swap - device specific requirements (some devices use unusual pins for handshaking, etc.) - etc. This greatly cuts down on the typical "tangled box of assorted cables" you find in most places. And, the hassles involved in trying to find THE right cable for the job. Instead, I dynamically fabricate the cable that I need by patching lengths of straight through M-F cables together. Then, apply whatever combination of "widgets" are needed on each end (in theory, you only need to do this on one end but sometimes you need a 25->9 pin adapter and other times its easier to do some of the "widgeting" on each end instead of having 2 or three cascaded widgets hanging off one end of the cable) The only downside is making the widgets -- since they are so compact, getting 25 conductors in the clamshells is a bit challenging (unless you resort to really fine wire). From brain at jbrain.com Wed Aug 2 16:50:57 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 16:50:57 -0500 Subject: Radio Electronics Issues looking for a good home Message-ID: <44D11E41.9010401@jbrain.com> Pretty much 1985 to when they quit (2000) There are some interesting computer and computer-related projects in them. Either way, they're free for shipping to whomever wants. If no one bites, they are hitting the recyling bin. Jim From shirsch at adelphia.net Wed Aug 2 17:01:33 2006 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 18:01:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Not classic, but free: HP-UX (and the B2000) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, Scott Quinn wrote: > > www.openpa.net is your friend. > > Don't have anything that new; a C180 will run standard kbd/mouse and > perepherals just fine. What graphics do you have? HP jumped on the next > big thing, the EVC connector, really fast. I don't think anybody else > did. Finding an adaptor can be fun-. The newer FX5/FX10s I believe have > DVI, though. The seller tells me that the B2000 has a "15-pin video card" installed, which sounds like the usual HD-15F connector. > The apps disk does appear to contain cc and cxx. Don't know if they have > fixed license policies in place or if you just are asked nicely to get a > license from HP. To do that, you either (a) get a commercial software > product for HP-UX developed or (b) you send them a check for about $900. > HP-UX does have all headers, so GCC is an option if you have cycles to > burn (don't even think of using anything less than GCC 3.3 - it seems > to, um, "pessimize" programs on RISC architectures) I'll play around > with the C180 and check out the apps- I have more disk space there > (wohoo! 6GB!) Same deal as the SGI, then. Not a big problem, I'm used to gcc/g++! Steve From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 2 16:51:25 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 22:51:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: <44D0CDB8.C7CCA07F@rain.org> from "Marvin Johnston" at Aug 2, 6 09:07:20 am Message-ID: > > > I'm just curious; I picked up a PDP 11/05 last weekend, but instead of the > processor cards laying on their sides, these were standing up. This resulted in > a configuration with two other plastic covers (one about 1" high below the > standard 11/05 front panel, and the other about 7" above the front panel.) Is > this a standard or optional chassis for the 11/05? I also picked up the dual There was a standard configuration for the 11/05 in the BA11-K 10.5" high mounting box. It sounds like this is what you have. The main differences are a totally different backplane, more space for expanison (obviously), a different PSU obviously) and that the console terminal cable plugs into a little dual-height board that plugs into the CPU backplane. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 2 16:25:59 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 22:25:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <200608012305.k71N5Km2082162@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Aug 1, 6 06:05:20 pm Message-ID: > Ok, here's the full story : > > > I have had my Amiga 600 since 2001 and have > added a few bits over the years: > > - 2.5" 4GB harddrive (I can't remember the > make and model at the moment) > > - 1MB RAM (in trapdoor underneath) > > > I also have a 4MB PCMCIA RAM card which is > rarely used, and 2 external floppy drives > (one doesn't work), with only 1 connected up. > I haven't upgraded any of the kickstart or > ROM chips, they are the same as when I bought it. > > I run WB2.05 (and am happy with it) with > kickstart 37.300 > > I don't know the board revision number off-hand > but I can find out if required. > > > My harddrive used to power down (powersave?) > after not being used for say 20/30 mins and > happily power-up again whenever I tried to > access the drive (via WB or via AMOS BASIC). > > However, around April/May this year the drive > started to randomly power down and then, > usually, almost instantly power back up again > but WB nor AMOS could access the HD. Any > attempt to do so would freeze WB or AMOS. My first comment is that this set-up worked correctly for almost 5 years. This means the set-up is capable of working, and that the fact that it now doesn't work means something has failed (rather than, say, an incompatability, or a marginally-rated PSU, or...) > I figured (as you would) that my harddrive Actually, I might not. My first reaction would be to stick a voltmeter on the power lines. [...] > I popped along to www.amiga.org and posted > my problem up there and peeps then suggested > it might be a flaky PSU. I got myself an > A500 "heavy brick" model (AFAIK it's compatible Again, since the original PSU worked for a long time, it would appear it was adequate. I don't like changing parts of systems that have worked without a good reason. > and gives more power if required) by chance > (I was planning to get another A600 PSU) > from www.amigadeals.co.uk > > Everything appeared to be fixed. However, my > A600 was running hotter than normal. I have > always put a plastic pen above the air vent > bit at the top of the machine (by the F1-F4 keys) an > d it used to always be cold. With this > new PSU it was warm and the underside of the > Amiga 600 was hotter than normal. > > I posted my concerns to either Amiga.org or > CAR and then someone suggested that it might > be a faulty resistor. He claimed that the I doubt it very much. If it's the resistor that's getting too hot, then it's dissipating too much power. In a constant voltage set-up (that would be the most likely), it would have to fall significantly in value for this to haeppen. Which is not likely. I suppose a faulty resistor could upset the biasing on some other component, and thus cause that to pass too much current, but from my memory of the A500 circuit, I can't think of any obvious candidate. Have you tried running the machine with the cover off to see what is getting hot? It might be something as simple as a leaking decoupling capacitor. [...] > > My second computer was a TRS-80 Model 1 (my first, > > FWIW, was an MK14, yes > > I still have both). I now have a Model 3 and Model > > 4, and several CoCos. > > And schematics, etc for all of them. > > > > -tony > > > > > > Cool :) Were you ever tempted with the Model > 16 or 12? I wish!. I'd love an Model 16, but they're not at all common in the UK, and would not be cheap (or easy) to ship from the States. In a moment of madness I did get a CoCo3 sent from the States (brand new machine, some 16 years ago), but that was just the keyboard/processor unit, not a CRT monitor and drives too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 2 16:55:51 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 22:55:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: <06080214124700.02056@bell> from "joseph c lang" at Aug 2, 6 02:12:47 pm Message-ID: > > Sounds like you are describing the 11/05 10" system unit. > It's a standard chassis. 11/05S IIRC I was under the impression that 11/05S refered to the later version of the CPU board set (which could end up in any mounting box). The main differences to the user being a couple of jumpers, one to disable the console port (allowing you to use a normal DL11 card for this), the other to diaable the bus arbitration, allowing the machine to be a slave processor on the Unibus of another machine (!) > It has a 1 rack unit panel below the front panel. > And a 3 rack unit panel above the front panel. > It has the power supplies along the right side (if you're facing the front > panel) Odd. The 5.25" box is like that, but the 10.5" one I saw had the PSUs across the back. It was the same box (BA11-K) as is normally used for the 11/34 -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 2 16:30:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 22:30:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <200608012319.k71NJeJ3082469@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Aug 1, 6 06:19:40 pm Message-ID: > Forgot to add: > > > Scuzz hasn't had any problems with my original HD on > his A600. OK, so the hard drive doesn't seem to have been the problem. > > > and here's the reason I thought it might be a > resistor: > > > > " The different PSU would not cause > overheating inside the A600. Since the PSU is > located separately, the heat it dissipates > would be outside of the machine. Even though This assumes the output voltages of the 2 PSUs are the same. I believe they are, but can;'t easily check. > the PSU is capable of supplying more power, it > will only output the power that is needed. Correct. These are constant voltage PSUs, the load (in this case the computer) detemines the current drawn, and thus the power. > I would take off the top lid of the computer > and try to pinpoint where exactly the heat is > coming from. There could be some components Me too. > that might have shorted out and is causing > the power supply to output more current. This > could actually be your original problem. The > old A600 PSU probably wasn't able to handle > this current draw but the more powerful A500 > PSU could. If something shorted out (like a > resistor) it would cause other components to _LIKE_ a resistor. But not necessarily a resistor. Actually, a resistor is the least likely thing to cause this problem. My first guess would be a decoupling capacitor. My second would be one of the ICs -- it's possible for ICs to break down in such a way that they draw more supply current (and get hot) but carry on working. > heat up and that might be what your seeing. > > Amiga install any fuses in the computer I have > no clue. Wouldn't have cost that much extra." I am not sure what good that would do. -tony From shirsch at adelphia.net Wed Aug 2 17:09:57 2006 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 18:09:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Not classic, but free: HP-UX (and the B2000) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, Scott Quinn wrote: > > www.openpa.net is your friend. > > Don't have anything that new; a C180 will run standard kbd/mouse and > perepherals just fine. What graphics do you have? HP jumped on the next > big thing, the EVC connector, really fast. I don't think anybody else > did. Finding an adaptor can be fun-. The newer FX5/FX10s I believe have > DVI, though. Oh yuck. I re-read the service manual carefully and it sort of implies that the unit has an EVC video connector. I've never seen one, so would someone who has tell me if it's about the same size as an HD15F? The picture is a little fuzzy, but it sure _looks_ like an HD15. If this thing needs an adapter, I'll have to fork out for one. According to the manual, it's included with the accessory kit, but there's almost no chance that will be accompanying this unit. Steve From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 2 17:40:16 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 17:40:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Hi, I'm new... Message-ID: <200608022240.k72MeGvs012129@keith.ezwind.net> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > Ok, here's the full story : > > > > > > I have had my Amiga 600 since 2001 and have > > added a few bits over the years: > > > > - 2.5" 4GB harddrive (I can't remember the > > make and model at the moment) > > > > - 1MB RAM (in trapdoor underneath) > > > > > > I also have a 4MB PCMCIA RAM card which is > > rarely used, and 2 external floppy drives > > (one doesn't work), with only 1 connected up. > > I haven't upgraded any of the kickstart or > > ROM chips, they are the same as when I bought it . > > > > I run WB2.05 (and am happy with it) with > > kickstart 37.300 > > > > I don't know the board revision number off-hand > > but I can find out if required. > > > > > > My harddrive used to power down (powersave?) > > after not being used for say 20/30 mins and > > happily power-up again whenever I tried to > > access the drive (via WB or via AMOS BASIC). > > > > However, around April/May this year the drive > > started to randomly power down and then, > > usually, almost instantly power back up again > > but WB nor AMOS could access the HD. Any > > attempt to do so would freeze WB or AMOS. > > My first comment is that this set-up worked > correctly for almost 5 years. > This means the set-up is capable of working, and > that the fact that it > now doesn't work means something has failed (rathe r > than, say, an > incompatability, or a marginally-rated PSU, or...) > > > I figured (as you would) that my harddrive > > Actually, I might not. My first reaction would be to > stick a voltmeter on > the power lines. errr... no voltimeter here, nor do i have a clue where to buy one from (or how to use one). > > [...] > > > I popped along to www.amiga.org and posted > > my problem up there and peeps then suggested > > it might be a flaky PSU. I got myself an > > A500 "heavy brick" model (AFAIK it's compatible > > Again, since the original PSU worked for a long > time, it would appear it > was adequate. I don't like changing parts of syste ms > that have worked > without a good reason. > I still have the old A600 PSU, I usually keep faulty/suspected faulty parts for spare parts. > > and gives more power if required) by chance > > (I was planning to get another A600 PSU) > > from www.amigadeals.co.uk > > > > Everything appeared to be fixed. However, my > > A600 was running hotter than normal. I have > > always put a plastic pen above the air vent > > bit at the top of the machine (by the F1-F4 keys ) > an > > d it used to always be cold. With this > > new PSU it was warm and the underside of the > > Amiga 600 was hotter than normal. > > > > I posted my concerns to either Amiga.org or > > CAR and then someone suggested that it might > > be a faulty resistor. He claimed that the > > I doubt it very much. If it's the resistor that's > getting too hot, then > it's dissipating too much power. In a constant > voltage set-up (that would > be the most likely), it would have to fall > significantly in value for this > to haeppen. Which is not likely. I suppose a fault y > resistor could upset > the biasing on some other component, and thus caus e > that to pass too much > current, but from my memory of the A500 circuit, I > can't think of any > obvious candidate. > Ahem, it's an A600 I own ;) > Have you tried running the machine with the cover > off to see what is > getting hot? It might be something as simple as a > leaking decoupling > capacitor. > I was planning too, but I had concerns about being electricuted (spelling?) as I had never done that before, and also becuase of the recent hot weather - I have no patience in hot weather and feared running it in the extreme heat would only cause more damage. What would the "leaking decoupling capacitor" look like, if that was the cause? Which is the capacitor? Anyone know? > > > [...] > > > > > My second computer was a TRS-80 Model 1 (my > first, > > > FWIW, was an MK14, yes > > > I still have both). I now have a Model 3 and > Model > > > 4, and several CoCos. > > > And schematics, etc for all of them. > > > > > > -tony > > > > > > > > > > Cool :) Were you ever tempted with the Model > > 16 or 12? > > I wish!. I'd love an Model 16, but they're not at > all common in the UK, > and would not be cheap (or easy) to ship from the > States. In a moment of > madness I did get a CoCo3 sent from the States > (brand new machine, some > 16 years ago), but that was just the > keyboard/processor unit, not a CRT > monitor and drives too. > > -tony > > Probably best you didn't get the 16, as it's inferior to the 12! The 12 was actually made later than the 16 and supports various modes making it compatible with 16 and 4 (?) software (and hardware?). Infact I think the Model 12 was the best of the bunch. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From rick at rickmurphy.net Wed Aug 2 17:33:09 2006 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 18:33:09 -0400 Subject: VERSAbus In-Reply-To: <200608022102.k72L2srv009958@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608022102.k72L2srv009958@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060802183002.02540ec0@rickmurphy.net> At 05:02 PM 8/2/2006, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: >Hi Jules, > > --- Jules Richardson > wrote: > > > > >> snip << > > > cheers > > > > Jules > > > > -- > > A. Because it destroys the natural flow of > > conversation. > > Q. What's wrong with top posting ? > > > >hehe, I couldn't agree with you more. >Unfortunately those peeps that use Mycrosaft >Outlook (or other PC email software) are >forced to do so. No, that's not true. They're not "forced" to do it as there's a tool to correct the M$ brain-damage: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ -Rick From segin2005 at gmail.com Tue Aug 1 17:33:18 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 18:33:18 -0400 Subject: New to the list Message-ID: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> Hello all. I am new to this list, and while I've posted comments before, that was without formal introduction, so here goes. I am a 16 year old high school student who works with computer daily. I perfer to work with older systems (386s are fun!) because they are just so damned reliable. Mainly, I do software development, but when I have time, I uhh... can't remember. Ahh, what the hell... You can just call me segin. -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Aug 2 17:58:22 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 23:58:22 +0100 Subject: Radio Electronics Issues looking for a good home In-Reply-To: <44D11E41.9010401@jbrain.com> References: <44D11E41.9010401@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <44D12E0E.3020802@dsl.pipex.com> Jim Brain wrote: > Pretty much 1985 to when they quit (2000) There are some interesting > computer and computer-related projects in them. Either way, they're > free for shipping to whomever wants. If no one bites, they are hitting > the recyling bin. How much to ship to the UK? Thanks. -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 2 19:27:25 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 17:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> from "Segin" at Aug 01, 2006 06:33:18 PM Message-ID: <200608030027.k730RPfY000686@onyx.spiritone.com> > I am a 16 year old high school student who works with computer daily. I > perfer to work with older systems (386s are fun!) because they are just > so damned reliable. Mainly, I do software development, but when I have > time, I uhh... can't remember. Welcome to the list! I'm curious, what makes you consider them so reliable? Are you saying they're more reliable than modern x86 hardware? I'm curious as I can understand many of the motivations for collecting other hardware, but not x86 PC's. I assume you're not running some bizarre OS, that requires the hardware, that and interfacing with strange hardware that you need and won't work with newer systems are about the only reason besides games that makes sense to me. At the same time my own dislike of PC Hardware of that vintage might be colouring my perception. After all, most of the systems I run don't make sense to most people. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 2 19:40:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 17:40:11 -0700 Subject: Early RAID In-Reply-To: <200608021824.k72IOkKj008484@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200608021824.k72IOkKj008484@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200608021740110551.4D2C8C9D@10.0.0.252> On 8/2/2006 at 2:24 PM Brad Parker wrote: >You might look into what Thinking Machines was doing. I thought they >had some massively parallel disk setups in the mid '80 for the CM-2. Cray was also mumbling about parallel arrays of cheap drives about then, but I don't think the word "RAID" was mentioned. IIRC, Cray was mostly interested on how throughput could be improved by striping. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 2 19:50:21 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 17:50:21 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> On 8/1/2006 at 6:33 PM Segin wrote: >I am a 16 year old high school student who works with computer daily. I >perfer to work with older systems (386s are fun!) because they are just >so damned reliable. My own experience stretches back a bit further (I have socks that are older than you) and today's hardware is nothing short of miraculous in terms of cost and reliability. My mailserver (an Compaq P3 Deskpro) has been running continuously for about 4 years with no attention to the extent that I don't even have a display connected. I could have NEVER expected that sort of reliability from anything on the market 30 years ago. (Well, maybe if I'dve had the funds for one of Jimmy Treybig's Tandem boxes, but even then, maybe not). Granted, the stuff that's made very very cheaply today doesn't always show a lot of reliability, but then neither do cheap shoes. :) Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 2 19:54:35 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 20:54:35 -0400 Subject: Early RAID In-Reply-To: <200608021740110551.4D2C8C9D@10.0.0.252> References: <200608021824.k72IOkKj008484@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200608021740110551.4D2C8C9D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > Cray was also mumbling about parallel arrays of cheap drives about then, > but I don't think the word "RAID" was mentioned. IIRC, Cray was mostly > interested on how throughput could be improved by striping. Certainly RAID was around before 1985 - it was just RAD. Disks were not inexpensive back then. -- Will From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Aug 2 19:56:39 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 19:56:39 -0500 Subject: Not classic, but free: HP-UX (and the B2000) Message-ID: <6cf00f2ad9df4e6890c6b67f7815aeea@valleyimplants.com> > Oh yuck. I re-read the service manual carefully and it sort of implies >that the unit has an EVC video connector. I've never seen one, so would >someone who has tell me if it's about the same size as an HD15F? The >picture is a little fuzzy, but it sure _looks_ like an HD15. No, EVC looks like a stretched DVI. 9000/B2000 is FXe, which outputs on a VGA-type HD-15. You're lucky. >Same deal as the SGI, then. Not a big problem, I'm used to gcc/g++! Nope, better: the development tools install and operate. Just consider yourself duty-bound to become a HP 9000 developer and promote the platform if you use them, and everything should be O.K. From kelly at catcorner.org Wed Aug 2 20:05:03 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 21:05:03 -0400 Subject: Early RAID Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036137@MEOW.catcorner.org> > > Cray was also mumbling about parallel arrays of cheap > drives about then, > > but I don't think the word "RAID" was mentioned. IIRC, > Cray was mostly > > interested on how throughput could be improved by striping. > > Certainly RAID was around before 1985 - it was just RAD. Disks were > not inexpensive back then. > This may not be old enough for the OP, but... Around 1987 or so we were setting up a SCO box on an ALR 386 machine. There was a software product that allowed for striped arrays of SCSI disks with a parity drive in that environment. I want to say it was called something like Paladin, but I can find no reference on it. Didn't work with the Fujitsu drives we had. Kept hosing the superblock due to cache writeback issues. Kelly From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 2 20:26:23 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 18:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Radio Electronics Issues looking for a good home Message-ID: <20060803012623.81710.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> Ill give them a warm nuturing hove...uh home if no one else takes them. --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Jim Brain wrote: > > Pretty much 1985 to when they quit (2000) There are some interesting > > computer and computer-related projects in them. Either way, they're > > free for shipping to whomever wants. If no one bites, they are hitting > > the recyling bin. > > How much to ship to the UK? > > Thanks. > -- > Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder > philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 2 20:26:50 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 18:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Early RAID In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036137@MEOW.catcorner.org> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036137@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <20060802182335.K2650@shell.lmi.net> People at UC Berkeley claim that it was invented there, by David Patterson http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/storage/story/0,10801,87093,00.html Since folk at UC Berkeley also can't spell, my license plate frame reads "UC Berkeley Aluminum". In case I get a British car, I have a spare one that reads "UC Berkeley Aluminium" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jclang at notms.net Wed Aug 2 20:58:01 2006 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 21:58:01 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06080221580100.02652@bell> On Wednesday 02 August 2006 17:55, you wrote: > > Sounds like you are describing the 11/05 10" system unit. > > It's a standard chassis. 11/05S IIRC > > I was under the impression that 11/05S refered to the later version of > the CPU board set (which could end up in any mounting box). The main > differences to the user being a couple of jumpers, one to disable the > console port (allowing you to use a normal DL11 card for this), the other > to diaable the bus arbitration, allowing the machine to be a slave > processor on the Unibus of another machine (!) > > > It has a 1 rack unit panel below the front panel. > > And a 3 rack unit panel above the front panel. > > It has the power supplies along the right side (if you're facing the > > front panel) > > Odd. The 5.25" box is like that, but the 10.5" one I saw had the PSUs > across the back. It was the same box (BA11-K) as is normally used for the > 11/34 > > -tony I'm willing to accept more than one version of the 10.5" chassis... My 11/05 has the same power regulator as used in the 5' chassis along the right side and has a H744 behind that. I seem to recall seeing an 11/05 with h744s along the back as you describe. joe lang From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Aug 2 21:10:56 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 21:10:56 -0500 Subject: Early Raid (Offtopic) Message-ID: <6fb2539fea35452080a2515ea166e866@valleyimplants.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >Since folk at UC Berkeley also can't spell, my license plate frame reads >"UC Berkeley Aluminum". In case I get a British car, I have a spare one >that reads "UC Berkeley Aluminium" Yes, but they can write (a darned good UNIX), so all^h^h^h most is forgiven... From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 2 21:27:04 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 14:27:04 +1200 Subject: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <200608022142.k72LghC7010908@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608022142.k72LghC7010908@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 8/3/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Is Gayle a capacitor? If not, what does she do? Gayle is one of the custom chips in the A600 - it handles system address decoding and the IDE interface. I don't have an A600 (but just about every other model of Amiga), so I don't know if it's a DIP or a PLCC package chip, but it's a chip, not a capacitor. -ethan From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 2 21:46:46 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 22:46:46 -0400 Subject: OT: In-Reply-To: <44D11CAC.7070306@DakotaCom.Net> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200608021717.50406.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D11CAC.7070306@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200608022246.46477.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 02 August 2006 05:44 pm, Don Y wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Wednesday 02 August 2006 05:02 pm, Don Y wrote: > >> I have an *8* headed "laplink" (lowercase L) cable but, IIRC, > >> they are just various combinations of connectors/genders and > >> pinouts (but still a serial cable). > > > > That's a bit much. > > > > I have a couple of 9-to-25 pin size adapters that I need to check the > > connections on, and am not sure I have them in both genders. And some > > connector shells that'll take a 25-pin connector at each end, which I > > got seeing them as being handy to make adapters with. But the need for > > such stuff never arrived, so I never got around to building them, > > except for a couple of gender changers. If I ever do it'll be easy > > enough to have one test cable that's wired straight through and then make > > up any adapters I might need. > > I have a box of 25 pin M-F DB25 cables wired 1<->1. I could probably use some more than the couple I have, but there's been no real need lately. > And, a small box of "widgets" -- little 2x2" clamshells > with a pair of DB25's on each end. Sex varies -- some are > M-M, some F-F, some M-F. Just the things I was referring to. > I wire each of these widgets for a specific purpose: > - gender changers (M->F, F->M) > - "null modem", "null terminal" :-/ > - PLIP > - Sun "port A/port B" swap > - device specific requirements (some devices use unusual > pins for handshaking, etc.) > - etc. If you have that info in a file I sure wouldn't mind taking a look at it. Could come in handy some time. I know I've run across the odd bit now and then. Like the DEC printer that was the exact same mechanism as several others I'd seen around that time (Apple imagewriter? Some others I can't recall) but which required one of the handshake lines to be pin 10, or maybe it was 11. Nothing special about that printer, and it was really pretty slow compared to a lot of others out there (though not as noisy either), with one exception -- when you fed it a "*" it printed an actual 5-pointed star. Only printer I've ever seen that did that. :-) > This greatly cuts down on the typical "tangled box of assorted cables" you > find in most places. And, the hassles involved in trying to find THE right > cable for the job. Yeah, I can see where it would. And this is exactly the sort of thing I had in mind when I wrote that. > Instead, I dynamically fabricate the cable that I need by patching lengths > of straight through M-F cables together. Then, apply whatever combination > of "widgets" are needed on each end (in theory, you only need to do this on > one end but sometimes you need a 25->9 pin adapter and other times its > easier to do some of the "widgeting" on each end instead of having 2 or > three cascaded widgets hanging off one end of the cable) Just so. Those things stretching out horizontally behind an item of equipment sometimes doesn't work real well either, so a short cable at that end to let 'em hang might be another option. > The only downside is making the widgets -- since they are so compact, > getting 25 conductors in the clamshells is a bit challenging (unless you > resort to really fine wire). I did make a couple of gender changers that way, and it didn't seem too bad. Though that was a bunch of years ago and my eyes aren't what they used to be. The shells I have are two separate plastic bits, so I can leave them out of the way until fairly late in the process. Is there a standard about which parts of that stuff are supposed to get the screws and which are supposed to get the little threaded posts and such? I bumped into hassles with that already, too. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed Aug 2 22:44:32 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 20:44:32 -0700 Subject: "Key codes" Message-ID: <44D17120.5070509@DakotaCom.Net> Hi, I've got my Opus PM reinstalled (thanks, Jim!) and am now trying to sort out all of the little configuration details. It supports up to four "sessions" (like ALT-Fx on *BSD's) plus a "DOS" session. They are accessed via hotkeys (e.g., ALT-H, ALT-J, etc.). In order to change the key mappings from their defaults, I need to specify the appropriate "key codes" -- from Appendix G of _The IBM BASIC Manual_. Apparently "48" is ALT-B (verified). But, I haven't been able to sort out the appropriate codes for *other* keys (empirically). Any pointers? I think I have the manual for an old IBM BASIC *compiler* stashed somewhere so perhaps this will be a suitable alternative reference? Thnks! --don From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 2 23:08:13 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 21:08:13 -0700 Subject: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <62a9b737779a4af28bb1b20fa2b67b36@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: >From: Scott Quinn > > > > I'd see if there was some way to put a voltmeter on the power coming in. >If the computer draws more than the supply can put out, the supply voltage >will drop. > >I've never seen a resistor short- I've had several caps short out on me, >though. It's evident when that happens, though - there's usually a bang and >puff of smoke. >I'd expect the smoke if anything shorted out, the components usually aren't >rated highly enough to survive a dead short. Usually it's some passive that >goes, though. > Hi I had a resistor short through its outer cover ( painted carbon film ) and take out a 90 volt line in a pinball machine display. It seemed to have been also enhanced but some old dust that was attracted to the 90 volt lines. When in the military, I had carbon comp resistors reduce value by as much as 50% but I've never seen one that wasn't run above its rated voltage short from end to end. 1/4W resistors don't like 6KV and 1 amp supplies. The arc created might count as a short. Dwight From daspage at yahoo.com Wed Aug 2 20:06:24 2006 From: daspage at yahoo.com (david page) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 18:06:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vintage HP-87 system with additional equipment Message-ID: <20060803010624.96166.qmail@web51313.mail.yahoo.com> Hello, I got your email off of your website and I was hoping that you could help me The company I work for here in the great northern state of Maine decided to clean out the server room one day and was going to throw away a great piece of computing history so I rescued and took it home I had done some research and I know there is some demand for this type of computer among collectors . is there a website to find out possible market value and maybe a buyer? This is what I had acquired: Hewlett Packard- HP-87 HP82909A-128k Memory Module HP82929A-Programmable ROM Module HP82936A-ROM Drawer w/ six (6) ?ROM chips?(?) 1. Plotter ROM-Rev. A 2. I/O ROM- Rev. A 3. Advanced Programming ROM 1- Rev. B 4. Advanced Programming ROM 2- Rev. B 5. Electronic Disc ROM- Rev. A 6. Assembler ROM- Rev. A HP82939A-Serial Interface HP9121-Dual 3-1/4? Floppy Drive HP82905B-Printer (Dot Matrix, I believe) Ten (10) Floppy Disks, (to be named later if needed) Pocket Guide Instructions... File folder w/ original invoice for parts of the system and misc. paperwork.. The HP-87 works well, I plugged it in and was able to type commands, nothing too complicated .i didn?t test the floppy drive or the printer yet I need another power cord which I can dig up system is clean, though slightly (very slightly) discolored from age Please let me know if you have any resources for me to follow up on I have considered posting it on Ebay, but I would like to get more info on it before i do anything in the meantime, I will check it out and see what it can do! Thanks for your time and effort, D. Page Bath, Maine daspage at yahoo.com --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2?/min or less. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Aug 3 01:06:12 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 23:06:12 -0700 Subject: "Key codes" -- solved! In-Reply-To: <44D17120.5070509@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44D17120.5070509@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44D19254.5090105@DakotaCom.Net> Don Y wrote: > In order to change the key mappings from their defaults, > I need to specify the appropriate "key codes" -- from > Appendix G of _The IBM BASIC Manual_. Thanks, but I found a reference for these! (sheesh, talk about "pseudo random numbers...") From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Aug 3 01:11:34 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 23:11:34 -0700 Subject: OT: In-Reply-To: <200608022246.46477.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200608021717.50406.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D11CAC.7070306@DakotaCom.Net> <200608022246.46477.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44D19396.6050706@DakotaCom.Net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 02 August 2006 05:44 pm, Don Y wrote: >> I wire each of these widgets for a specific purpose: >> - gender changers (M->F, F->M) >> - "null modem", "null terminal" :-/ >> - PLIP >> - Sun "port A/port B" swap >> - device specific requirements (some devices use unusual >> pins for handshaking, etc.) >> - etc. > > If you have that info in a file I sure wouldn't mind taking a look at it. > Could come in handy some time. I know I've run across the odd bit now and > then. Most of the "typical" ones are pretty intuitive. Though "null terminal" was a bit of a head-scratcher. > Like the DEC printer that was the exact same mechanism as several others I'd > seen around that time (Apple imagewriter? Some others I can't recall) but > which required one of the handshake lines to be pin 10, or maybe it was 11. > Nothing special about that printer, and it was really pretty slow compared > to a lot of others out there (though not as noisy either), with one > exception -- when you fed it a "*" it printed an actual 5-pointed star. Only > printer I've ever seen that did that. :-) Some devices put power on certain pins, some devices use pins for nonstandard reasons, etc. >> Instead, I dynamically fabricate the cable that I need by patching lengths >> of straight through M-F cables together. Then, apply whatever combination >> of "widgets" are needed on each end (in theory, you only need to do this on >> one end but sometimes you need a 25->9 pin adapter and other times its >> easier to do some of the "widgeting" on each end instead of having 2 or >> three cascaded widgets hanging off one end of the cable) > > Just so. Those things stretching out horizontally behind an item of equipment > sometimes doesn't work real well either, so a short cable at that end to let > 'em hang might be another option. Yes, instead of using "9 pin widgets", I use short 9-25 pin pigtails when I need to make that sort of adaptation for exactly this reason. > Is there a standard about which parts of that stuff are supposed to get the > screws and which are supposed to get the little threaded posts and such? I > bumped into hassles with that already, too. The shells that I have accommodate jack screws on one end -- so I let that decide where to put each bit of hardware. From Glen.Heiberg at gijima.com Thu Aug 3 01:27:00 2006 From: Glen.Heiberg at gijima.com (Glen Heiberg) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 08:27:00 +0200 Subject: Not classic, but free: HP-UX Message-ID: <831434B713AA43429AF3F3EE801F38B207E446@rst-exc06.za.astgroup.com> Just my 2c worth... I received my HPUX CD package today from HP a week and a half after ordering, and I'm in "deepest darkest" Africa. Quite impressive! ______________________________________________ "This email is subject to our email legal notice, to view follow this link ' http://www.gijima.com/other/gijima_disclaimer.html ' To receive the legal notice as a PDF document, send an email to 'service.desk at gijima.com' From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Aug 3 02:10:51 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 02:10:51 -0500 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > My own experience stretches back a bit further (I have socks that are older > than you) and today's hardware is nothing short of miraculous in terms of > cost and reliability. I can see where the guy is coming from, though. Modern hardware is very reliable, but the software is just terrible. Drivers in particular. I have a 3D program that displays perfectly on one machine, and resets the display every time you render on another. I have a Linux box that keeps forgetting what it's IP address is, DHCP or not, and the catalyst for that behavior was a new router (!?). It's crazy. One of my favorite hobbyist experiences was working on my 386/40 -- I had a finely-tuned DOS setup, had QEMM to manage the memory, and everything was properly aligned and non-conflicting in terms of IRQ and DMA assignments. It Just Worked(tm). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 3 04:13:31 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 09:13:31 +0000 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <44D1BE3B.2070006@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> My own experience stretches back a bit further (I have socks that are >> older >> than you) and today's hardware is nothing short of miraculous in terms of >> cost and reliability. > > I can see where the guy is coming from, though. Modern hardware is very > reliable Yes, but it's no *fun* ;-) cheers Jules -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 3 04:32:17 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 09:32:17 +0000 Subject: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <200608022240.k72MeGvs012129@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608022240.k72MeGvs012129@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <44D1C2A1.7080704@yahoo.co.uk> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: >> stick a voltmeter on the power lines. > > errr... no voltimeter here, nor do i have a clue > where to buy one from (or how to use one). Get yourself down to a Maplin store - whilst Maplin's don't half sell some junk these days, they always seemed to have good deals on multimeters. The one on www.maplin.co.uk, code GW24B, is 30 pounds and does everything you could expect of it, plus a few 'features' like capacitance and frequency measurement. >> Have you tried running the machine with the cover off to see what is >> getting hot? It might be something as simple as a leaking decoupling >> capacitor. > > I was planning too, but I had concerns about > being electricuted (spelling?) as I had never electrocuted - close! :-) There shouldn't be any mains voltage inside the Amiga - it's all low-voltage DC. No problem there (just don't use anything metallic whilst the machine's on obviously, in case you accidentally short something out!) You can touch the tops of chips to see if any of them are getting over-warm (that's all relative though as different bits will run hotter than others by design; if it's too hot to keep your finger on for any length of time then that's often a good sign that something's wrong!) Oh, have you checked the hard disk cable, connector on the A600 board, and the connector on the hard disk itself? Just a thought. Check for damage, bad connections etc. - I've know hard drives do strange things when the connection isn't quite behaving itself. Worth taking the main PCB out of the machine itself too, just to make sure that a particle of something metallic hasn't worked its way underneath and is shorting out something that it shouldn't be. Those sorts of 'mechanical' checks tend to be easy to do before reaching for any test equipment. cheers Jules -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From shirsch at adelphia.net Thu Aug 3 06:37:05 2006 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 07:37:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Not classic, but free: HP-UX (and the B2000) In-Reply-To: <6cf00f2ad9df4e6890c6b67f7815aeea@valleyimplants.com> References: <6cf00f2ad9df4e6890c6b67f7815aeea@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Aug 2006, Scott Quinn wrote: > > > > Oh yuck. I re-read the service manual carefully and it sort of implies > >that the unit has an EVC video connector. I've never seen one, so would > >someone who has tell me if it's about the same size as an HD15F? The > >picture is a little fuzzy, but it sure _looks_ like an HD15. > > No, EVC looks like a stretched DVI. 9000/B2000 is FXe, which outputs on a VGA-type > HD-15. You're lucky. I jumped the gun and ordered an EVC --> HD15F adapter from HP anyway. It's enough out-of-the-ordinary to be worth having on hand and the 20-odd bucks won't kill me. > >Same deal as the SGI, then. Not a big problem, I'm used to gcc/g++! > > Nope, better: the development tools install and operate. Just consider yourself > duty-bound to become a HP 9000 developer and promote the platform if you use them, > and everything should be O.K. Wow, great! I sure wish HP would make the Alpha C/C++ compilers available gratis. Maybe this is the start of a trend. Steve From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 3 09:54:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 07:54:24 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> On 8/3/2006 at 2:10 AM Jim Leonard wrote: >I can see where the guy is coming from, though. Modern hardware is very >reliable, but the software is just terrible. Drivers in particular. I >have a 3D program that displays perfectly on one machine, and resets the >display every time you render on another. I have a Linux box that keeps >forgetting what it's IP address is, DHCP or not, and the catalyst for >that behavior was a new router (!?). It's crazy. No, it's just the level of complexity that software's evolved. Display cards have come a long way from simple bit-mapped graphics and the level of driver support needed for relatively simple devices is more than you'd think. In particular, a "legacy" floppy driver under XP must deal with things such as ACPI and power management that were never an issue for earlier OS software. Most software, Linux included, has been getting more bloated. Not only does the complexity make for less reliability, but it makes ever-greater demands on system resources. I'm sometimes puzzled about this when I consider that most PC owners simply want to interact with a web browser and send email--and perhaps do the occasional word processing document and spreadsheet. With the current crop of operating systems, a staggering amount of hardware is being thrown at relatively few applications for the most part. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 3 10:16:58 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 08:16:58 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D1BE3B.2070006@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <44D1BE3B.2070006@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: At 9:13 AM +0000 8/3/06, Jules Richardson wrote: >Jim Leonard wrote: >>Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>My own experience stretches back a bit further (I have socks that are older >>>than you) and today's hardware is nothing short of miraculous in terms of >>>cost and reliability. >> >>I can see where the guy is coming from, though. Modern hardware is >>very reliable > >Yes, but it's no *fun* ;-) Actually when it comes to x86 hardware I find it to be the opposite, the old pre-PCI stuff is such a pain in the neck to deal with that it's no fun. The newer hardware tends to fit together easier and be more reliable (well most things, anything mechanical is likely to be less). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 3 11:31:52 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 16:31:52 +0000 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D224F8.1070005@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > No, it's just the level of complexity that software's evolved. Display > cards have come a long way from simple bit-mapped graphics and the level of > driver support needed for relatively simple devices is more than you'd > think. How much has the sales side changed? I mean, I suspect for a typical user just doing some word processing etc., a simple bitmapped display is fine - they don't *need* the high speed of a card that has a lot more features. Printers are a case in point too - a parallel port does that job just fine, yet it's hard to find a machine that doesn't have more complicated USB interfaces on it, and a printer's now expected to use that. It just seems that in a lot of situations all that extra hardware and software complexity isn't actually necessary - an average user doesn't actually make use of it anyway and could just as easily get by with simpler hardware. I get the impression that the high-end market was always this way - with companies / sales-force trying to convince people that they *needed* the latest gizmo even if they didn't. For the home market though, it seems like a more recent thing. e.g. take PCs (please! ;) - Back in the early 90's you could choose whether to have an accelerated graphics card or not, a caching disk controller or not, a CDROM drive, a large or small hard disk etc. - at least the customer had the choice. These days they don't get given that, and everyone has to have the complexity whether they actually want/need it or not... cheers Jules -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Aug 3 10:40:51 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 10:40:51 -0500 Subject: Alpha C compilers (WAS Not classic, but free: HP-UX (and the B2000) Message-ID: > I jumped the gun and ordered an EVC --> HD15F adapter from HP anyway. >It's enough out-of-the-ordinary to be worth having on hand and the 20-odd >bucks won't kill me. Good to have on hand. If you use it, just remember not to screw it in (on either end) if the system will likely be moved. The construction is quite fragile, and resoldering the connectors is very unpleasant. Best to have one end or the other slip off harmlessly. >Wow, great! I sure wish HP would make the Alpha C/C++ compilers available >gratis. Maybe this is the start of a trend. Not sure what you mean here: Compaq C/C++ for AlphaLinux is free already, and Alpha C/C++ for Tru64 and OpenVMS are both included in the relevant hobbyist programs. IBM xlC/xlC++ and SGI MIPSpro would be very nice (although Apple's contributions to GCC for POWER/PowerPC have made it infinitely better). I saw on USENET a blurb about "repurposing" the included MIPSpro kernel compiler as a general-purpose C compiler with the addition of a few symlinks, and the word on the street is that MIPSpro 7.4 could, ahem, possibly be used for a few times while one is trying to locate the regrettably misplaced license code, with only a nag screen coming up. I'm trying to get into the dev program, though. We'll see what happens. From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 3 11:06:35 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 12:06:35 -0400 Subject: OT: In-Reply-To: <44D19396.6050706@DakotaCom.Net> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200608022246.46477.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D19396.6050706@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200608031206.35378.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 03 August 2006 02:11 am, Don Y wrote: > > If you have that info in a file I sure wouldn't mind taking a look at it. > > Could come in handy some time. I know I've run across the odd bit now > > and then. > > Most of the "typical" ones are pretty intuitive. Though > "null terminal" was a bit of a head-scratcher. I can't say I've ever heard of that one before. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 3 11:08:16 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 12:08:16 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D224F8.1070005@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <44D224F8.1070005@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > How much has the sales side changed? I mean, I suspect for a typical user just > doing some word processing etc., a simple bitmapped display is fine - they > don't *need* the high speed of a card that has a lot more features. People, including me, want some sort of polish and shine to applications. This is something that most hardcore computer people do not understand. The polish and shine are the things that take up the computing resources, and generally make using the machines a bit more pleasant. > Printers are a case in point too - a parallel port does that job just fine, > yet it's hard to find a machine that doesn't have more complicated USB > interfaces on it, and a printer's now expected to use that. I suspect one reason for this (and a big one as well) is that a USB printer is probably cheaper to make. Most of the cost is in the cable and sockets, and clearly the USB stuff wins there. -- Will From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 3 11:11:28 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 12:11:28 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608031211.28951.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 03 August 2006 10:54 am, Chuck Guzis wrote: <...> > No, it's just the level of complexity that software's evolved. Display > cards have come a long way from simple bit-mapped graphics and the level of > driver support needed for relatively simple devices is more than you'd > think. In particular, a "legacy" floppy driver under XP must deal with > things such as ACPI and power management that were never an issue for > earlier OS software. A floppy driver? Why? This isn't making sense to me at the moment (gotta go get that second cup of coffee I guess...) > Most software, Linux included, has been getting more bloated. Not linux, or at least not to any great extent. Stuff that runs under linux, KDE and Gnome in particular, yeah. > Not only does the complexity make for less reliability, but it makes > ever-greater demands on system resources. I can still (and have) install linux on any old 386 box to do some particular function. I was using such a box as a firewall/router here until some hardware failures had me upgrading to a 486dx2/66 a while back. > I'm sometimes puzzled about this when I consider that most PC owners simply > want to interact with a web browser and send email--and perhaps do the > occasional word processing document and spreadsheet. With the current crop > of operating systems, a staggering amount of hardware is being thrown at > relatively few applications for the most part. Yeah, it's crazy. There's really no need for a lot of that stuff. Which is why I don't just toss a lot of the older (pc) hardware here. I'll find something useful to do with it... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 3 11:14:48 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 12:14:48 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D224F8.1070005@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <44D224F8.1070005@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200608031214.48338.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 03 August 2006 12:31 pm, Jules Richardson wrote: > I get the impression that the high-end market was always this way - with > companies / sales-force trying to convince people that they *needed* the > latest gizmo even if they didn't. For the home market though, it seems like > a more recent thing. > > e.g. take PCs (please! ;) - Back in the early 90's you could choose > whether to have an accelerated graphics card or not, a caching disk > controller or not, a CDROM drive, a large or small hard disk etc. - at > least the customer had the choice. These days they don't get given that, > and everyone has to have the complexity whether they actually want/need it > or not... The thing is, for techy-type people who want those choices, that's great. The average mass-market customer not only doesn't want those choices, they don't understand them, and so they want someone else to make the choices _for_ them. Which is why m$ is going so far compared to other choices in that market. Personally I don't like the choices they make, and don't like the way that every single time I end up having to use something on that platform I end up feeling like I'm fighting it, but that's me. And I suspect a lot of the folks in here, but definitely _not_ the mass market, unfortunately. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 3 11:40:27 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 09:40:27 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608031211.28951.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <200608031211.28951.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608030940270465.509BAFDC@10.0.0.252> On 8/3/2006 at 12:11 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >A floppy driver? Why? This isn't making sense to me at the moment (gotta >go get that second cup of coffee I guess...) 'Cause the OS says you have to. There was a huge grumble of displeasure in the NT community after MS assured developers that NT 4.0 kernel-mode drivers would work just fine with 2K. And they did--until RC1, when, just a month or two before official launch, you discovered that you had to implement the complete litany of power management services or you'd get a BSOD. I haven't even looked at Vista requirements yet--and probably won't until Vista's released because MS is making the same claim "You can use XP drivers on Vista". Sometimes, it seems to me that OS software at Microsoft is created as a sort of involuntary spasm. But as to why software is buggy and complex, consider ACPI. One of the densest, most incomprehensible, violated-in-practice "standards" that exists on the face of the planet. Or, consider the way the already-complex USB standard has "bloomed" since 1.0. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 3 12:01:29 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 10:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D224F8.1070005@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 03, 2006 04:31:52 PM Message-ID: <200608031701.k73H1TS3016527@onyx.spiritone.com> > How much has the sales side changed? I mean, I suspect for a typical user just > doing some word processing etc., a simple bitmapped display is fine - they > don't *need* the high speed of a card that has a lot more features. Try running Mac OS X or Vista on such a display (or WinXP, X-Windows with a fancy window manager). You'll quickly find that modern OS's require 3D accelerated graphics cards, and that it isn't exactly easy to turn off all of those functions. This is a personal source of irritation with me, I don't want to waste system resources with all of those "gee wiz" features! In fact the inability to turn stuff I don't want off that has been added in the last two versions, and them removing stuff I do want is really starting to turn me off on the Mac. OTOH, I do want a high-end graphics card and a high-end monitor for running my Adobe DTP apps. It's also nice to have such a setup for surfing. In all honesty for the most part, the rest of what I run could be done on a VT420 and I'd be just fine. On anything other than my Mac, I view a graphics display as a way to get a lot of terminal windows (and this is part of what I use it on the Mac for). But then I am not the typical user, and that probably includes on CLASSICCMP. Zane From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 3 12:05:54 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 13:05:54 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608030940270465.509BAFDC@10.0.0.252> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608031211.28951.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608030940270465.509BAFDC@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608031305.54794.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 03 August 2006 12:40 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/3/2006 at 12:11 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >A floppy driver? Why? This isn't making sense to me at the moment (gotta > >go get that second cup of coffee I guess...) > > 'Cause the OS says you have to. There was a huge grumble of displeasure in > the NT community after MS assured developers that NT 4.0 kernel-mode > drivers would work just fine with 2K. And they did--until RC1, when, just > a month or two before official launch, you discovered that you had to > implement the complete litany of power management services or you'd get a > BSOD. I have observed from *way* back when the tendency on the part of those folks to say one thing and then get you to commit and then they turn around and nail you. One of the reasons I don't want to do business with them, ever. In my view it's not necessary or desirable to do business like that, much as they may differ on that issue. I don't care how much money billyboy is throwing at his various chosen charities, looking at how he got that money in the first place kinda puts me off of any appreciation of that whatsoever. > I haven't even looked at Vista requirements yet--and probably won't until > Vista's released because MS is making the same claim "You can use XP > drivers on Vista". Sometimes, it seems to me that OS software at Microsoft > is created as a sort of involuntary spasm. Right. "We're not lying to you this time, honest!" I won't bother looking at any of that stuff these days, in spite of the fact that I could have involved myself with it a while back and probably have managed a comfortable living out of it instead of struggling. It's a treadmill I have no intention of getting on. > But as to why software is buggy and complex, consider ACPI. One of the > densest, most incomprehensible, violated-in-practice "standards" that > exists on the face of the planet. Hm. From wikipedia, "developed by HP, Intel, Microsoft, Phoenix and Toshiba". There's a clue, probably. > Or, consider the way the already-complex USB standard has "bloomed" since > 1.0. I still have nothing here that uses USB, and no near-term plans to acquire anything. Someone pointed out that the reason for the proliferation of it is driven by manufacturing costs, with cabling and connectors and such being much more expensive than small bits of silicon running the necessary drivers to deal with it, which strikes me as being perhaps accurate, but since I already _have_ the cabling and connectors and whatnot and I'm not planning on doing any manufacturing I'm not going to worry about it. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 3 13:28:51 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 18:28:51 +0000 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <44D224F8.1070005@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44D24063.9020000@yahoo.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: >> How much has the sales side changed? I mean, I suspect for a typical >> user just >> doing some word processing etc., a simple bitmapped display is fine - >> they >> don't *need* the high speed of a card that has a lot more features. > > People, including me, want some sort of polish and shine to > applications. OK, I'm sitting here staring at a GUI that has faded menu bars. Now I don't *need* those - I'm not going to suddenly find it hard to use an application if that effect were to disappear. Yet someone's decided to code them in anyway, increasing disk footprint, memory footprint, and display redraw time unnecessarily. That's the sort of stuff I'm talking about - there's an awful lot of extras thrown into modern software that just isn't required, and even more that isn't required *all the time*. I don't have anything against a well thought out UI - but so often modern software seems to be about adding frills, or rolling several applications into one and increasing bloat that way when not all users want everything that's in the bundle. > This is something that most hardcore computer people do > not understand. The polish and shine are the things that take up the > computing resources, and generally make using the machines a bit more > pleasant. See, it doesn't matter if my menus are a single colour or 523 shades of grey. It's a tool, not a work of art. Providing it's easy to use with a little learning, I'm happy. >> Printers are a case in point too - a parallel port does that job just >> fine, >> yet it's hard to find a machine that doesn't have more complicated USB >> interfaces on it, and a printer's now expected to use that. > > I suspect one reason for this (and a big one as well) is that a USB > printer is probably cheaper to make. Most of the cost is in the cable > and sockets, and clearly the USB stuff wins there. It's perhaps cheaper now that so many printer manufacturers have gone down that route. But the level of complexity of a point-to-point parallel system must be a lot simpler than a serial bus, surely? cheers Jules -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Aug 3 12:28:38 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 10:28:38 -0700 Subject: OT: In-Reply-To: <44D0FBF6.3070903@msm.umr.edu> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200608020905430571.4B558E57@10.0.0.252> <44D0EFBB.5050909@DakotaCom.Net> <200608021203410955.4BF87D55@10.0.0.252> <44D0FBF6.3070903@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <44D23246.4010602@DakotaCom.Net> jim stephens wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I know this is a vintage list, but at a minimum, PS/2-style bidirectional >> parallel ports have been around for a very long time, so this >> shouldn't be >> a problem. Even if you had an old XT, printer and monochrome adapter >> cards can usually be modified to operate in bi-directional mode. >> >> After that, it's just the cable and a bit of software on the receiving >> side. > > I have a "vintage" IBM PS/2 data migration facility box with appropriate > dates, so it is not too off topic. Anyone out there with a recipe > or howto pointer to do this with various os varieties? Say linux > 2 linux, or linux to dos? > > To fork the thread, I would be interested in whether the SCO parallel > drivers might support the parallel port in such a way as to allow > such coupling, (reads get data from port that is). I see, in my notes, dating back to late 90's (97ish) support for PLIP in FreeBSD. But, that's a full-fledged network interface, not just a "file transfer mechanism". I know it was capable of working with SPP's so it required a special cable (to push nybbles across the wire). I am not sure if it supported any of the "enhanced" printer port capabilities, though. My most recent SCO release predates this, IIRC (I don't actively follow SCO's product :> ) but I don't think it has any of this sort of support. I think PC-Anywhere (?) supported this on MS platforms many years ago. As did MS's own protocol. But, I am not sure if this ever made it out of the MS world... (?) > Also what is required to do this simply or other wise on Linux > (mentioned above). > Even better, is there a small program to do this to a dos box, that can > be used on dos / old windows boxes. > > Laplink had cables for the serial port, I don't recall if it had a > parallel version > that was reliable, as far as dos to dos data transfer. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Aug 3 12:51:15 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 10:51:15 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D24063.9020000@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <44D224F8.1070005@yahoo.co.uk> <44D24063.9020000@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44D23793.6000200@DakotaCom.Net> Jules Richardson wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: >>> How much has the sales side changed? I mean, I suspect for a typical >>> user just >>> doing some word processing etc., a simple bitmapped display is fine - >>> they >>> don't *need* the high speed of a card that has a lot more features. >> >> People, including me, want some sort of polish and shine to >> applications. > > OK, I'm sitting here staring at a GUI that has faded menu bars. Now I > don't *need* those - I'm not going to suddenly find it hard to use an > application if that effect were to disappear. Yet someone's decided to > code them in anyway, increasing disk footprint, memory footprint, and > display redraw time unnecessarily. Exactly. But, moreso, it also decreases reliability. How often do we see the same "buffer overrun" bugs creeping into code? Wasn't OO design, C++, "design by contract" supposed to BURY all of those little problem issues in a way that would make them go away FOREVER?? I.e. shouldn't classes take care of the details of pushing/appending bytes to a buffer so the developer doesn't have to *count* them?? Also, I think people fail to realize how much faster their machines *are* because they keep piling on fatter and fatter bloatware. Does KDE *really* need to be that big?? My favorite text editor (including emacs) is Brief (for DOS). I take out version 1.1 and run it on a 400MHz machine and it *flies*. I can't even imagine what it would do on a 2GHz box! Yet, it does everything I want, runs as a text console (though uses "line graphics" for the frames of it's "windows"), etc. Shame Borland never rereleased it after they bought it (or, better yet, open sourced it!) > That's the sort of stuff I'm talking about - there's an awful lot of > extras thrown into modern software that just isn't required, and even > more that isn't required *all the time*. > > I don't have anything against a well thought out UI - but so often > modern software seems to be about adding frills, or rolling several > applications into one and increasing bloat that way when not all users > want everything that's in the bundle. Yup. Like constantly telling me I misspelled something instead of letting me ASK you if I've misspelled anything (or, compromise, *remind* me to ask you...) >> This is something that most hardcore computer people do >> not understand. The polish and shine are the things that take up the >> computing resources, and generally make using the machines a bit more >> pleasant. > > See, it doesn't matter if my menus are a single colour or 523 shades of > grey. It's a tool, not a work of art. Providing it's easy to use with a > little learning, I'm happy. Exactly. The "polish and shine" *quickly* fade. In the 80's, a friend was doing video [arcade] game design. I recall reviewing a pre-alpha copy of his game and being wow'ed by one of the effects. A few minutes later, when the effect should next have appeared, I was disappointed that this second instance wasn't anywhere near as spectacular as the first. I pointed that out to him. He replied that it was deliberate. The effect had random elements in it to ensure that it didn't appear the same each time. This was puzzling: "Why not put out your best effect EACH time?" He commented that folks get used to it and then it loses any impact. OTOH, if really great effects appear only occasionally, then, when they DO appear, they get noticed. Sort of like wondering why the fireworks show doesn't have the same intensity as the finale ALL THE TIME! :> How many people TODAY look at images of crumpled paper flying into a wastebasket and go "Ooooo.... Ahhhhh...."? >>> Printers are a case in point too - a parallel port does that job just >>> fine, >>> yet it's hard to find a machine that doesn't have more complicated USB >>> interfaces on it, and a printer's now expected to use that. >> >> I suspect one reason for this (and a big one as well) is that a USB >> printer is probably cheaper to make. Most of the cost is in the cable >> and sockets, and clearly the USB stuff wins there. > > It's perhaps cheaper now that so many printer manufacturers have gone > down that route. But the level of complexity of a point-to-point > parallel system must be a lot simpler than a serial bus, surely? USB will see more attention in the future (than the parallel port) -- so, "hitch your horse to USB" seems to make sense to manufacturers. I started designing a product and "settled" on USB simply because it would let me get by with a *single* connector -- and, I could use that same connector to charge the batteries in my product! A *big* advantage when you are designing something that must be small, portable, lightweight *and* still have some flexibility with the I/O's. I've since decided that even USB is too limiting and am moving the implementation to a BT stack. The cost of the radio offsets the costs of the connectors, cables, etc. and is slickernsnot. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Aug 3 12:56:24 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 10:56:24 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608031701.k73H1TS3016527@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608031701.k73H1TS3016527@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <44D238C8.8040203@DakotaCom.Net> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> How much has the sales side changed? I mean, I suspect for a typical user just >> doing some word processing etc., a simple bitmapped display is fine - they >> don't *need* the high speed of a card that has a lot more features. > > Try running Mac OS X or Vista on such a display (or WinXP, X-Windows with > a fancy window manager). You'll quickly find that modern OS's require 3D > accelerated graphics cards, and that it isn't exactly easy to turn off all > of those functions. This is a personal source of irritation with me, I > don't want to waste system resources with all of those "gee wiz" features! > In fact the inability to turn stuff I don't want off that has been added in > the last two versions, and them removing stuff I do want is really starting > to turn me off on the Mac. OTOH, giving a user TOO MUCH control over the interface can be just as bad. You end up adding code to support all these choices and build tools to give the user access to those choices (even if it's just a list of checkboxes, etc.) and that code has to be maintained, tested, etc. And, you get comments from users *trying* to use it yet finding that it isn't *completely* flexible ("why can't I specify italic text to be displayed in white?"). It's a tough job trying to figure out what flexibility to allow the user and what things to cast in concrete. Especially when you are dealing with such a broad spectrum of users! > OTOH, I do want a high-end graphics card and a high-end monitor for running > my Adobe DTP apps. It's also nice to have such a setup for surfing. In all > honesty for the most part, the rest of what I run could be done on a VT420 > and I'd be just fine. On anything other than my Mac, I view a graphics > display as a way to get a lot of terminal windows (and this is part of what > I use it on the Mac for). But then I am not the typical user, and that > probably includes on CLASSICCMP. Run screen(1) :> From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 3 13:44:30 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 11:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D23793.6000200@DakotaCom.Net> from "Don Y" at Aug 03, 2006 10:51:15 AM Message-ID: <200608031844.k73IiUGr019323@onyx.spiritone.com> > > OK, I'm sitting here staring at a GUI that has faded menu bars. Now I > > don't *need* those - I'm not going to suddenly find it hard to use an > > application if that effect were to disappear. Yet someone's decided to > > code them in anyway, increasing disk footprint, memory footprint, and > > display redraw time unnecessarily. This is my personal pet peave with "modern" GUI design. I don't want this wasting my resources, it really should be optional. > Yup. Like constantly telling me I misspelled something instead > of letting me ASK you if I've misspelled anything (or, compromise, > *remind* me to ask you...) I've got to disagree with you on this one. Done correctly, this is the single greatest computer innovation of the 21st Century! It is the one thing that I really miss when I don't have it. I like it when I get the squigly line under a word I've misspelled and can right-click to bring up a list of possible correct spellings. More importantly, it has definitely helped to improve my spelling. > How many people TODAY look at images of crumpled paper flying > into a wastebasket and go "Ooooo.... Ahhhhh...."? This has always irritated me. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 3 13:49:50 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 11:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D238C8.8040203@DakotaCom.Net> from "Don Y" at Aug 03, 2006 10:56:24 AM Message-ID: <200608031849.k73InotG019471@onyx.spiritone.com> > OTOH, giving a user TOO MUCH control over the interface can be > just as bad. You end up adding code to support all these choices > and build tools to give the user access to those choices (even if > it's just a list of checkboxes, etc.) and that code has to be > maintained, tested, etc. > > And, you get comments from users *trying* to use it yet finding > that it isn't *completely* flexible ("why can't I specify italic > text to be displayed in white?"). > > It's a tough job trying to figure out what flexibility to allow > the user and what things to cast in concrete. Especially when you > are dealing with such a broad spectrum of users! In my case I want to turn "expose" and "widgets" off on Mac OS X, as well as the special effects. That's the bulk of the control I'm looking for. While you can disable expose (no hot keys), it is probably still wasting resources. The "widgets" problem is much larger, as far as I know there is no way to turn it off, it is a major waste of resources. It was one of the reasons I dumped 10.4 and went back to 10.3.9. At least the special effects can be turned off. > > OTOH, I do want a high-end graphics card and a high-end monitor for running > > my Adobe DTP apps. It's also nice to have such a setup for surfing. In all > > honesty for the most part, the rest of what I run could be done on a VT420 > > and I'd be just fine. On anything other than my Mac, I view a graphics > > display as a way to get a lot of terminal windows (and this is part of what > > I use it on the Mac for). But then I am not the typical user, and that > > probably includes on CLASSICCMP. > > Run screen(1) :> One of my favorite Unix applications. Unfortunately there really isn't an equivalent on OpenVMS. Zane From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Aug 3 13:51:09 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 14:51:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608031844.k73IiUGr019323@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608031844.k73IiUGr019323@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200608031856.OAA11392@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Yup. Like constantly telling me I misspelled something instead of >> letting me ASK you if I've misspelled anything (or, compromise, >> *remind* me to ask you...) > I've got to disagree with you on this one. Done correctly, this is > the single greatest computer innovation of the 21st Century! It might be, if it weren't wrong so often. But I've seen it put up its silly little misspelling warning for things that are in fact spelled correctly. (Most commonly IME because they're nonstandard, less often because it was too stupidly done to know about them.) Second to this is failing to put up the warning for misspellings that, for all that they are misspellings, happen to end up at the correct spelling for some other word. (I conjecture that the latter tendency is in large part responsible for today's pernicious misspelling of "lose" as "loose", and quite possibly for the confusion of "its" and "it's".) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Aug 3 13:58:20 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 11:58:20 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608031844.k73IiUGr019323@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608031844.k73IiUGr019323@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <44D2474C.6070507@DakotaCom.Net> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Yup. Like constantly telling me I misspelled something instead >> of letting me ASK you if I've misspelled anything (or, compromise, >> *remind* me to ask you...) > > I've got to disagree with you on this one. Done correctly, this is the > single greatest computer innovation of the 21st Century! It is the one > thing that I really miss when I don't have it. I like it when I get the > squigly line under a word I've misspelled and can right-click to bring up a > list of possible correct spellings. More importantly, it has definitely > helped to improve my spelling. Why not have this happen when you click on a "check spelling" button instead of constantly running and interrupting your work process? (granted, most desktop CPU's have tons of idle cycles and could easily *do* this in the time between waiting for keystrokes) I guess I think about misspellings as a separate pass. I try to get the spelling right as I am typing (though keyboard failures are a nuisance, I can usually spot when a key is failing, etc.). I don't want to have to step back and fix a misspelling when I am concentrating on the next word to type, etc. Or, taking the focus away from me so that I *have* to deal with whatever you want to tell me ("Gee, is my computer on FIRE? No? Then why are you bothering me?? Fine, the printer has run out of paper. I'll figure that out sooner or later now go away...") Yet, other *useful* features are often missing (like being able to force a window to "stay on top" -- not a problem under most X window managers but in the peecee world, a real nuisance). From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Aug 3 14:02:27 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 12:02:27 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608031849.k73InotG019471@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608031849.k73InotG019471@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <44D24843.8040109@DakotaCom.Net> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> OTOH, giving a user TOO MUCH control over the interface can be >> just as bad. You end up adding code to support all these choices >> and build tools to give the user access to those choices (even if >> it's just a list of checkboxes, etc.) and that code has to be >> maintained, tested, etc. >> >> And, you get comments from users *trying* to use it yet finding >> that it isn't *completely* flexible ("why can't I specify italic >> text to be displayed in white?"). >> >> It's a tough job trying to figure out what flexibility to allow >> the user and what things to cast in concrete. Especially when you >> are dealing with such a broad spectrum of users! > > In my case I want to turn "expose" and "widgets" off on Mac OS X, as well as > the special effects. That's the bulk of the control I'm looking for. While > you can disable expose (no hot keys), it is probably still wasting > resources. The "widgets" problem is much larger, as far as I know there is > no way to turn it off, it is a major waste of resources. It was one of the > reasons I dumped 10.4 and went back to 10.3.9. At least the special effects > can be turned off. Yes. No doubt a good point -- yet everyone can come up with their own wish lists. Figuring out where to draw the line gets tough. And, if you don't draw *any* line, then you make more work for yourself with very little "commercial" gain. I like the original UN*X mantra -- build tools out of smaller tools. It gives you lots of places to insert "controls"... without *requiring* their presence. These monolithic things are either too stupid (by trying to be too *smart*!) or too bulky/unwieldy. From sales at azteqcorporation.com Thu Aug 3 12:04:51 2006 From: sales at azteqcorporation.com (mike perry) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 17:04:51 -0000 Subject: Relative Value of PGDP-11 CPUs; Was Re: Guys take a look... Message-ID: <003401c1d548$09829940$0401a8c0@mshome.net> Do you still have any KDJ11-EB`s? I need some. Mike Perry www.azteqcorporation.com From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 3 14:04:21 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 15:04:21 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608031844.k73IiUGr019323@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608031844.k73IiUGr019323@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <44D248B5.90703@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> OK, I'm sitting here staring at a GUI that has faded menu bars. Now I >>> don't *need* those - I'm not going to suddenly find it hard to use an >>> application if that effect were to disappear. Yet someone's decided to >>> code them in anyway, increasing disk footprint, memory footprint, and >>> display redraw time unnecessarily. > > This is my personal pet peave with "modern" GUI design. I don't want this > wasting my resources, it really should be optional. This is why I use X+ctwm. Peace... Sridhar From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Aug 3 14:07:08 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 12:07:08 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608031856.OAA11392@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200608031844.k73IiUGr019323@onyx.spiritone.com> <200608031856.OAA11392@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44D2495C.5010803@DakotaCom.Net> der Mouse wrote: >>> Yup. Like constantly telling me I misspelled something instead of >>> letting me ASK you if I've misspelled anything (or, compromise, >>> *remind* me to ask you...) >> I've got to disagree with you on this one. Done correctly, this is >> the single greatest computer innovation of the 21st Century! > > It might be, if it weren't wrong so often. But I've seen it put up > its silly little misspelling warning for things that are in fact > spelled correctly. (Most commonly IME because they're nonstandard, > less often because it was too stupidly done to know about them.) > Second to this is failing to put up the warning for misspellings that, > for all that they are misspellings, happen to end up at the correct > spelling for some other word. (I conjecture that the latter tendency > is in large part responsible for today's pernicious misspelling of > "lose" as "loose", and quite possibly for the confusion of "its" and > "it's".) If the spelling checker is just dictionary based, then it chokes as the dictionary size increases (the Hamming distance decreases!). You need knowledge of context/grammar to get it right. And then you're screwed by special "dialects" and subject matters. Each time I put together a page of notes (I use FrameMaker for DTP) and run spellcheck, it flags several dozen words as errors. Despite the fact that they are not. Yet, fails to find others that clearly *are*! (and, my favorite pet peeve... complaining about spaces between quotes/double quotes -- then refusing to gie me a way of telling it to ignore this "problem") From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 3 14:13:13 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 14:13:13 -0500 Subject: New to the list References: <200608031844.k73IiUGr019323@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <024801c6b730$df1e3590$6700a8c0@BILLING> It was written.... >> How many people TODAY look at images of crumpled paper flying >> into a wastebasket and go "Ooooo.... Ahhhhh...."? I think this thread should be now moved to "alt.comp.os.evangelism". Jay From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 3 15:16:43 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 20:16:43 +0000 Subject: Software bloat (was: Re: New to the list) In-Reply-To: <200608031844.k73IiUGr019323@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608031844.k73IiUGr019323@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <44D259AB.50700@yahoo.co.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Yup. Like constantly telling me I misspelled something instead >> of letting me ASK you if I've misspelled anything (or, compromise, >> *remind* me to ask you...) > > I've got to disagree with you on this one. Done correctly, this is the > single greatest computer innovation of the 21st Century! It is the one > thing that I really miss when I don't have it. I like it when I get the > squigly line under a word I've misspelled and can right-click to bring up a > list of possible correct spellings. More importantly, it has definitely > helped to improve my spelling. I find it distracting, to be honest. Plus it seems to have the effect of encouraging people to be lazy and no do any sort of proof-reading of their work before submitting; they rely on spell-checking as they go and so don't bother doing any kind of proper final check. (Oh, my other pet-peeve is things that 'suggest' text for you based on things that you've typed before, often in a totally different context - it's distracting having things pop up on screen randomly whilst working) >> How many people TODAY look at images of crumpled paper flying >> into a wastebasket and go "Ooooo.... Ahhhhh...."? .. although some form of feedback's obviously needed in some places. Little animations like that just seem like overkill though (particularly as I'm not even sure that they're always tied to the process that they represent - I'm sure there are cases where the animation can play forever whilst the process doing the work has happily fallen over and gone into an endless loop. Incorrect feedback's worse than no feedback at all) cheers Jules From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 3 14:17:05 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 15:17:05 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D24063.9020000@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <44D224F8.1070005@yahoo.co.uk> <44D24063.9020000@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > It's a tool, not a work of art. You just said it all. This is why hardcore computer people generally do not understand the importance of polish and shine. Most of you are quite happy in a world of grey (beige?) computers, looking at a grey screen, sitting at a grey desk, eating a grey sandwich in a grey room. Great, very productive. Most of the public thinks otherwise. > It's perhaps cheaper now that so many printer manufacturers have gone down > that route. But the level of complexity of a point-to-point parallel system > must be a lot simpler than a serial bus, surely? Once the initial engineering gets done, it is all about production costs, and this is where USB shines. -- Will From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Aug 3 14:17:13 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 15:17:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D2474C.6070507@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <20060803191713.1BDF05812D@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Don Y > > Yet, other *useful* features are often missing (like being able > to force a window to "stay on top" -- not a problem under most > X window managers but in the peecee world, a real nuisance). > Get Powertoys - it is a free download from M$. It has a very useful app - "TweakUI" which has an option "Prevent applications from stealing focus". Cheers, Bryan From shirsch at adelphia.net Thu Aug 3 14:29:25 2006 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 15:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Alpha C compilers (WAS Not classic, but free: HP-UX (and the B2000) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Aug 2006, Scott Quinn wrote: > >Wow, great! I sure wish HP would make the Alpha C/C++ compilers available > >gratis. Maybe this is the start of a trend. > > Not sure what you mean here: Compaq C/C++ for AlphaLinux is free > already, and Alpha C/C++ for Tru64 and OpenVMS are both included in the > relevant hobbyist programs. I have a couple of versions of Tru64 hobbyist and don't recall having a license for cxx! I'll have to fire up my trusty UP2000 and check again. Years ago, we paid > $4k for the cxx license at work, IIRC. > IBM xlC/xlC++ and SGI MIPSpro would be very > nice (although Apple's contributions to GCC for POWER/PowerPC have made > it infinitely better). My paychecks come from IBM, so I have become very fond of xlC/C++ (aka VAC) but it certainly ain't free - not even for employees . I thought I saw something announced about a free xlC for PPC linux - am I imagining this? > I saw on USENET a blurb about "repurposing" the > included MIPSpro kernel compiler as a general-purpose C compiler with > the addition of a few symlinks, and the word on the street is that > MIPSpro 7.4 could, ahem, possibly be used for a few times while one is > trying to locate the regrettably misplaced license code, with only a nag > screen coming up. I'd appreciate knowing more about this. Private e-mail works . > I'm trying to get into the dev program, though. We'll see what happens. That's the cleanest way, granted. -- From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Aug 3 14:31:50 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 15:31:50 -0400 Subject: gray ui's (was: New to the list ) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Aug 2006 15:17:05 EDT." Message-ID: <200608031931.k73JVoJL005852@mwave.heeltoe.com> "William Donzelli" wrote: > >This is why hardcore computer people generally do not understand the >importance of polish and shine. Most of you are quite happy in a world >of grey (beige?) computers, looking at a grey screen, sitting at a... hmmm... I was going to argue, but: (if window-system (if do-hazeltine (progn (set-background-color "black") (set-foreground-color "green") (set-cursor-color "white") (set-default-font "9x15") ) ) ) but later in the same .emacs it does say: (set-face-foreground 'font-lock-comment-face "Orange") (set-face-foreground 'font-lock-string-face "LightBlue") (set-face-foreground 'font-lock-keyword-face "Green") (set-face-foreground 'font-lock-function-name-face "Green") (set-face-foreground 'font-lock-variable-name-face "Cyan") (set-face-foreground 'font-lock-type-face "Yellow") (set-face-foreground 'font-lock-reference-face "Aquamarine") :-) -brad From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 3 14:34:47 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 15:34:47 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <20060803191713.1BDF05812D@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060803191713.1BDF05812D@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <44D24FD7.7090905@gmail.com> Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Don Y >> Yet, other *useful* features are often missing (like being able >> to force a window to "stay on top" -- not a problem under most >> X window managers but in the peecee world, a real nuisance). >> > > Get Powertoys - it is a free download from M$. It has a very useful > app - "TweakUI" which has an option "Prevent applications from > stealing focus". I also use it's "mouse cursor focus" feature. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 3 14:35:07 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 12:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software bloat (was: Re: New to the list) In-Reply-To: <44D259AB.50700@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 03, 2006 08:16:43 PM Message-ID: <200608031935.k73JZ7Yt020870@onyx.spiritone.com> > I find it distracting, to be honest. Plus it seems to have the effect of > encouraging people to be lazy and no do any sort of proof-reading of their > work before submitting; they rely on spell-checking as they go and so don't > bother doing any kind of proper final check. I can understand complaints that it's distracting (it should be an option, and I think it is). Or that it's not that accurate, but lets be serious, what spell checker is. I was always forgeting to run what I'd typed up through a spell checker, now when I'm using systems/apps that support this feature I can easily correct spellings when I read over it to ensure that it makes sense. > (Oh, my other pet-peeve is things that 'suggest' text for you based on things > that you've typed before, often in a totally different context - it's > distracting having things pop up on screen randomly whilst working) I hate this as well, and would like to add "Auto-correct" (I'd probably like this if it was easier to find, configure and turn on and off). It does work great for "hte" -> "the" :^) Zane From kth at srv.net Thu Aug 3 14:55:50 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 13:55:50 -0600 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D23793.6000200@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <44D224F8.1070005@yahoo.co.uk> <44D24063.9020000@yahoo.co.uk> <44D23793.6000200@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44D254C6.4000800@srv.net> Don Y wrote: > Exactly. But, moreso, it also decreases reliability. How often > do we see the same "buffer overrun" bugs creeping into code? > Wasn't OO design, C++, "design by contract" supposed to BURY > all of those little problem issues in a way that would make > them go away FOREVER?? I.e. shouldn't classes take care of > the details of pushing/appending bytes to a buffer so the > developer doesn't have to *count* them?? Except that few are using C++, and many of those that do (i.e. kde) have decided that the STL classes are too bloated because of the boundry checks, and write their own, saving you an amazing 0.00001% on runtime with only 10% more memory. > Also, I think people fail to realize how much faster their machines > *are* because they keep piling on fatter and fatter bloatware. > Does KDE *really* need to be that big?? It takes memory to re-implement all those STL classes, the string class, etc. > My favorite text editor (including emacs) is Brief (for DOS). > I take out version 1.1 and run it on a 400MHz machine and it > *flies*. I can't even imagine what it would do on a 2GHz box! > Yet, it does everything I want, runs as a text console (though > uses "line graphics" for the frames of it's "windows"), etc. It was probably written entirely in machine language, and with all the DOS limitations built in (8.3 file names, 640K, direct access to hardware, etc). Updating it to another CPU or operating system would be a *lot* of work. > Shame Borland never rereleased it after they bought it > (or, better yet, open sourced it!) > Probably too much "licensed" extras in it, or too "ugly" to release the source for. Most likely they just don't want to be bothered about it. > Yup. Like constantly telling me I misspelled something instead > of letting me ASK you if I've misspelled anything (or, compromise, > *remind* me to ask you...) > Being genetically incapable of spelling anything the same way twice in a row, I like the auto-spellcheck feature. > Exactly. The "polish and shine" *quickly* fade. > > In the 80's, a friend was doing video [arcade] game design. I > recall reviewing a pre-alpha copy of his game and being wow'ed > by one of the effects. A few minutes later, when the effect should > next have appeared, I was disappointed that this second instance > wasn't anywhere near as spectacular as the first. > > I pointed that out to him. > > He replied that it was deliberate. The effect had random elements > in it to ensure that it didn't appear the same each time. This > was puzzling: "Why not put out your best effect EACH time?" > He commented that folks get used to it and then it loses any > impact. OTOH, if really great effects appear only occasionally, > then, when they DO appear, they get noticed. > > Sort of like wondering why the fireworks show doesn't have > the same intensity as the finale ALL THE TIME! :> > > How many people TODAY look at images of crumpled paper flying > into a wastebasket and go "Ooooo.... Ahhhhh...."? > > If you can't blind them with brilliance, give them a flash of non-mediocracy. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Aug 3 14:43:53 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 14:43:53 -0500 Subject: Drivers and hardware- then vs. now (WAS Re: New to the list) Message-ID: <6044708162c243968307da219a85c772@valleyimplants.com> > I haven't even looked at Vista requirements yet--and probably won't until >Vista's released because MS is making the same claim "You can use XP >drivers on Vista". Haven't checked driver requirements (don't write Windows drivers), but looked at base requirements. You can buy a mid-range PC now that, with upgraded memory, will be able to run the "base" version of Vista. High end P.C.s that you buy now might be able to run the whole thing. 512 MB ram for a minimum, 1GB recommended (AARGH - I didn't get any further) There's something really messed up when a midrange PC won't run software to be released in 6 months (of course, based on past performance, it won't be). >These days they don't get given that, and everyone has to have the >complexity whether they actually want/need it or not... O.K.- intellectual exercise: I'm a PC hardware maker. It costs me $N to make a board. nVidia chips from 2 years ago cost $G, a basic 2-d "accelerated" controller costs a bit less, but doesn't require the fancy assembly hardware (not that that matters much, I probably contract out). Buyers will probably say: "but that one only has 8MB and doesn't to 3-D, why isn't it 1/2 or 1/4 of the price?" and buy the fancy one, because it's "only $10 more" (probably less in reality) and does "so much more" even though (a) they don't need it and (b) the buggy drivers and heat output make it less useable. I sell one framebuffer each to the 120 people who (a) know what's up (b) use PCs and (c) don't just get integrated Intel "Extreme"(SGI should have sued them over that one...) graphics because they work O.K. and you don't have to deal with slipping AGP cards. >Printers are a case in point too - a parallel port does that job just fine, >yet it's hard to find a machine that doesn't have more complicated USB >interfaces on it, and a printer's now expected to use that. It's likely that implementing parallel is now more expensive. Almost everything in USB is in the software driver. If users complain, the companies can promise to "fix it in the next release" which may or may not happen... If it's in firmware, then people will demand that the company fix it under warranty. The older computers that keep getting brought up had long lifetimes. The Mac IIci was introduced in 1989 and sold through 1993 (chose this since it was one model, one company). Companies spent more time designing their machines because they didn't have the "reference implementations" and standard fully-integrated parts suppliers that we have now. Things "just worked" because they were designed together and spent time together, and this showed in firmware and software. You couldn't just flash your PROM, so they had to get things right or it got very expensive very fast. Things were much more expensive to buy, then, too (keep in mind). Nobody spends much time on consumer drivers because you can always make empty promises, and consumers no longer expect things to work. Sad state of affairs (especially when those "fancy 3-d graphics" that are all you can get now come with terrible drivers for anything but Windows (and maybe Mac), and the companies refuse to let anyone else write decent drivers because of "trade secrets" (for Linux it has to be in source, too many variables between kernel, libc, X-server...) From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Aug 3 15:07:08 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 15:07:08 -0500 Subject: Alpha C compilers Message-ID: <84d1320c3e9c4da6b37917999d2cce4b@valleyimplants.com> Perhaps I'm reading http://h30097.www3.hp.com/noncommercial-unix/ wrong, but the "full suite of development tools" certainly seems as though it would include compilers, although I guess that MBAs play with language often. I know for a positive fact that the VMS program includes compilers (C, C++, FORTRAN, BASIC, MACRO (VAX-MACRO on AXP) From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 3 16:36:01 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 16:36:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Hi, I'm new... Message-ID: <200608032136.k73La1lX009707@keith.ezwind.net> --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/3/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > wrote: > > Is Gayle a capacitor? If not, what does she do? > > Gayle is one of the custom chips in the A600 - it > handles system > address decoding and the IDE interface. I don't > have an A600 (but > just about every other model of Amiga), so I don't > know if it's a DIP > or a PLCC package chip, but it's a chip, not a > capacitor. > > -ethan > Thanks for that Ethan Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 3 17:16:11 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 17:16:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Hi, I'm new... Message-ID: <200608032216.k73MGATo010613@keith.ezwind.net> --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/3/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > wrote: > > Is Gayle a capacitor? If not, what does she do? > > Gayle is one of the custom chips in the A600 - it > handles system > address decoding and the IDE interface. I don't > have an A600 (but > just about every other model of Amiga), so I don't > know if it's a DIP > or a PLCC package chip, but it's a chip, not a > capacitor. > > -ethan What's DIP and PLCC stand for? Are there any visual clues that can help me work out which type it is? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Aug 3 17:07:38 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 18:07:38 -0400 Subject: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <200608032216.k73MGATo010613@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608032216.k73MGATo010613@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5A911FF1-49B6-45B6-B2F8-2DCE7784235A@colourfull.com> On Aug 3, 2006, at 6:16 PM, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > What's DIP and PLCC stand for? Are there any > visual clues that can help me work out > which type it is? > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > DIP - Dual inline package PLCC - Plastic Leaded Chip Carrier Robert Borsuk irisworld at mac.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Aug 3 17:09:19 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 18:09:19 -0400 Subject: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <200608032216.k73MGATo010613@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608032216.k73MGATo010613@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <6A9F984A-E5B0-4A04-B0ED-918FABA7DC87@colourfull.com> On Aug 3, 2006, at 6:16 PM, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Are there any > visual clues that can help me work out > which type it is? Sorry. Missed this part. DIP - Pins are on the sides only (chips are normally a rectangle) PLCC - Pins roll onto the chip itself and go on all sides of the chip (chips are normally square) From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 3 17:23:29 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 17:23:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Relative Value of PGDP-11 CPUs; Was Re: Guys take a look... Message-ID: <200608032223.k73MNTww010773@keith.ezwind.net> --- mike perry wrote: > Do you still have any KDJ11-EB`s? > > I need some. > > Mike Perry > www.azteqcorporation.com > Just a thought Mike, but you might want to change your clock (if you haven't already). The year on your email was 2002... I only found it by accident (currently have 490 emails in my Inbox!). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 3 16:38:51 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 22:38:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> from "Segin" at Aug 1, 6 06:33:18 pm Message-ID: > > Hello all. I am new to this list, and while I've posted comments before, > that was without formal introduction, so here goes. A beleated welcome to the list from me :-) > > I am a 16 year old high school student who works with computer daily. I Many (if not all) of the computers I use are older than you. This machine (the one I am currently using) is over 20 years old, for example... I remember a few years ago I gave a talk to a university computer club. Shortly after beginning, I realised that the computer I was demonstrating (a PDP11/05) was older than any member of the audience... > perfer to work with older systems (386s are fun!) because they are just I've never really thought of 386s as 'old'. To me they're very modern machines. Even the original IBM PC (8088) is new compared to a lot of stuff I restore and use. Oh well... Shows my age I guess... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 3 16:43:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 22:43:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> from "Segin" at Aug 1, 6 06:33:18 pm Message-ID: A point I forgot to mention... > I am a 16 year old high school student who works with computer daily. I > perfer to work with older systems (386s are fun!) because they are just I am curious as to what is 'fun' about 386s (I assume you mean PC compatibles, and not, for example, Sequent multi-processor machines). They're not old enough in general not to use ASICs (or at least the clone chipsents) on the motherboard. You're not going to get schematics or BIOS source listings in most cases. So the real low-level hardware/software hackability of these machines would seem to be little different from a more modern PC. To me, therefore they appear to be just a slower version of said modern PC. They've got no real advantages that I can spot (unlike, say, one of my PDP11s, or PERQs, or HPs, where (a) there is low-level documentation, (b) they are repairable easilty to component level and (c) they run rather diffeernt software to PCs). Can you enlighten me? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 3 17:02:40 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 23:02:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <200608022240.k72MeGvs012129@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Aug 2, 6 05:40:16 pm Message-ID: > > > I figured (as you would) that my harddrive > > > > Actually, I might not. My first reaction would be > to > > stick a voltmeter on > > the power lines. > > errr... no voltimeter here, nor do i have a clue > where to buy one from (or how to use one). Note I said 'my first reaction'. I am something of a hardware type... That said, I do feel that if you're going to run a classic computer (as opposed to running the software on an emulator), then you are going to have to learn a little bit about hardware and do your own repairs. I make no secret of the fact that I totally object to making essentially random changes (so-called 'board swapping') in the hope the machine will work again. I feel the only way to keep one of these machines -- in fact any machine -- working is to make measurements, figure out what the problem is, and then correct it. The first 2 stages should take a lot longer than the last. If you're spending most of your time changing parts, you're probably going about it in the wrong way. As regards getting a meter, Maplin Electronics, RS Components (http://www.rswww.com) and Farnell (http://www.farnell.com) all sell them. Personally, I find the best multimeters (combined voltmeter/ammeter/ohmmeter) are made by Fluke, and that's what I would buy. Problem is they don't come cheap. Realistically, you can probably get away with a much cheaper (and less accurate) instrument for this sort of work. I have no idea what your background/knowledge is. A good book on general electronics is 'The Art of Electronics' by Horrowitz and Hill, but that might be rather advanced for you at this stage. Alas I don't know any more introductory books than that. > e > > that to pass too much > > current, but from my memory of the A500 circuit, I > > can't think of any > > obvious candidate. > > > > Ahem, it's an A600 I own ;) Yes, I know. I don't have an A600 circuit diagram. I am assuming the basic design, at least around the PSU input circuitry, is going to be similar. > > > > Have you tried running the machine with the cover > > off to see what is > > getting hot? It might be something as simple as a > > leaking decoupling > > capacitor. > > > > I was planning too, but I had concerns about > being electricuted (spelling?) as I had never If the PSU is external (as I believe it is), then there are no high voltages in the computer itself. The PSU outputs +5V, +12V, and -12V to the computer. None of those voltages is high enough to give you a shock. The most dangerous voltage you are likely to come across in classic computing is the mains or a 350V DC voltage produced by directly rectifying the mains This turns up in what's called 'Switch Mode Power Supplies' (SMPSUs), and most computer supplies are of this type. This voltage is lethal. It's also likely to appear on metal heatsinks, etc, in such supplies. Don't work on one of those unless you really know what you are doing. Monitors are often claimed to contain lethal voltages. Well, there's mains (and most colour monitors use an SMPSU circuit, so the hazard I've just mentioned is there). But the even higher voltages to the CRT are generally only able to supply low currents, and are unlikely to be fatal. Don't take risks, though, 25000V is darn unpleasant. If you start working on larger machines (DEC minicomputers, etc), you might come across a monitor where the high voltage for the CRT comes from a mains transformer. That is lethal. Period. Touch it and you won't feel a thing -- ever. Take very great care if you work on one of these. If in doubt, ask. > done that before, and also becuase of the > recent hot weather - I have no patience in > hot weather and feared running it in the > extreme heat would only cause more damage. Yes, the heat doesn't encourage one to hack :-( > > What would the "leaking decoupling capacitor" > look like, if that was the cause? It will look like any other capacitor. The 'leak' is an internal electrical leak (a sort of weak short circuit). You'd have to find it by doing electrical tests. > > Which is the capacitor? Anyone know? The thing about decoupling capacitors is that they provide a local source of energy for the various chips, thus avoiding the voltage drop due to the resistance, and more particularly the inductance, of the supply connections. Therefore there is one (or more) next to each chip. And there's no way _anyone_ can tell you which has failed without doing more tests. -tony > > Probably best you didn't get the 16, as it's > inferior to the 12! Come again? The 16 has a 68000 processor board (as well as the Z80) and runs Xenix (along with TRS-DOS and CP/M). The model 12 is a Z80 only, and runs CP/M and TRS-DOS, although I belive the 68K board can be added later. > The 12 was actually made later than the 16 > and supports various modes making it > compatible with 16 and 4 (?) software > (and hardware?). Infact I think the Model 12 I would be very suprised if the Model 12 could use Model 4 hardware or software. You certainly can't directly read M4 disks in an M12 (due to the fact the former uses 5.25" disks, the latter 8"), for example. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 3 17:10:46 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 23:10:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/05 In-Reply-To: <06080221580100.02652@bell> from "joseph c lang" at Aug 2, 6 09:58:01 pm Message-ID: > I'm willing to accept more than one version of the 10.5" chassis... Yeah, me too... DEC often packaged much the same machine in different mouting boxes.. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 3 17:59:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 15:59:01 -0700 Subject: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <200608032216.k73MGATo010613@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608032216.k73MGATo010613@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200608031559010788.51F6464F@10.0.0.252> On 8/3/2006 at 5:16 PM aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: >What's DIP and PLCC stand for? Are there any >visual clues that can help me work out >which type it is? http://www.cpu-collection.de/?l0=package Pictures here. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Aug 3 18:15:00 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 19:15:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608032322.TAA13206@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I perfer to work with older systems (386s are fun!) [...] > I am curious as to what is 'fun' about 386s (I assume you mean PC > compatibles, and not, for example, Sequent multi-processor machines). Well, I'm not the person you're responding to, but I have some possible suggestions. > So the real low-level hardware/software hackability of these machines > would seem to be little different from a more modern PC. I'm not so sure. While I've never tried, I'd lay decent odds that it's a good deal easier to cobble together a working ISA board than a working PCI board. Thus, having an ISA bus makes the machine significantly more hackable in at least one reasonably plausible way. (386s can generally be assumed to be ISA machines, even though there are plenty of more recent machines with ISA.) Also, wasn't 386 instruction execution time predictible to the clock-cycle level (as opposed to more recent machines with caches and execution units involving pipelined x86 emulators running on RISC cores and such, which greatly complicate execution time prediction)? That makes them easier for doing things involving precise timing. And, of course, it's entirely possible that 16-year-old happens to be emotionally attached to 386s for reasons completely unrelated to their technical merits or lack thereof - perhaps there's some cherished game that doesn't run decently on anything newer (I've seen some such), or perhaps that person's first machine was a 386, or, well, there are lots of possibilities. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Aug 3 19:00:01 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 21:00:01 -0300 Subject: New to the list References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com><200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252><44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <004801c6b759$060f34b0$04fea8c0@alpha> > I'm sometimes puzzled about this when I consider that most PC owners simply > want to interact with a web browser and send email--and perhaps do the > occasional word processing document and spreadsheet. With the current crop > of operating systems, a staggering amount of hardware is being thrown at > relatively few applications for the most part. But that is the beautifulness (?) of Linux. IF you can digere it, IF you understand it, IF you are nerdy enough to go deeper, you can rebuild the kernal to the point that it becames a very very very light system capable of running anything you wants on an old pentium. But it takes time, knowledge and patience. :oP Greetz Alexandre From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Aug 3 19:03:16 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 21:03:16 -0300 Subject: New to the list References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org><200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <44D224F8.1070005@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <005701c6b759$9fadd5e0$04fea8c0@alpha> > Printers are a case in point too - a parallel port does that job just fine, > yet it's hard to find a machine that doesn't have more complicated USB > interfaces on it, and a printer's now expected to use that. The problem is the legacy - in order of building smaller PCs, people should get rid of the (big and clunky) parallel port. Imagine a pc where everything - printer, keyboard, mouse, pen-drive - is USB. You'll have to have a power supply, a video and a USB connector, all peripherals can be connected thru USB, and many of them (as a keyboard - dunno why it doesn't happens today) becoming a USB hub. > e.g. take PCs (please! ;) - Back in the early 90's you could choose whether > to have an accelerated graphics card or not, a caching disk controller or not, > a CDROM drive, a large or small hard disk etc. - at least the customer had the > choice. These days they don't get given that, and everyone has to have the > complexity whether they actually want/need it or not... You **can** choose, but why? In the early 90's I paid $650 for a CD-ROM (Nec intersect). Now you pay what? $20? For a CD Recorder? :o? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 3 19:38:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 17:38:43 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <004801c6b759$060f34b0$04fea8c0@alpha> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <004801c6b759$060f34b0$04fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <200608031738430757.52518C36@10.0.0.252> On 8/3/2006 at 9:00 PM Alexandre Souza wrote: > But that is the beautifulness (?) of Linux. IF you can digere it, IF >you understand it, IF you are nerdy enough to go deeper, you can rebuild the >kernal to the point that it becames a very very very light system capable >of running anything you wants on an old pentium. Maybe, but Linux doesn't have anything like the old QNX demo--an OS and browser that boots from a single 1.44MB floppy: http://toastytech.com/guis/qnxdemo.html Even back then, it impressed the heck out of me. Cheers, Chuck From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Aug 3 21:15:13 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 02:15:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608031738430757.52518C36@10.0.0.252> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <004801c6b759$060f34b0$04fea8c0@alpha> <200608031738430757.52518C36@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Aug 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Maybe, but Linux doesn't have anything like the old QNX demo--an OS and > browser that boots from a single 1.44MB floppy: > > http://toastytech.com/guis/qnxdemo.html > > Even back then, it impressed the heck out of me. They could only get away with that because of the supported hardware: Hardware requirements: * 386 or better. * 8 megs of ram. * Hardware / RS232 modem (not a winmodem) or NE1000/2000, DEC 21x4x, or 3com 509 based network card. * Serial or PS/2 mouse. * VGA or Vesa 2.0 compatible card. * No hard disk needed That must be the simplest set of x86 hardware that you can write a networked, protected VM OS on; all long-lived, well-defined interfaces, and only one set. No disk drivers even :-) Could you fit into such a small footprint with their stock kernel? I doubt it; I think this was a special build. Then there's their entirely in-house userland. Could you fit a variety of things written by different groups? Again, I doubt it; code would be duplicated, and it would be hard to remove everything non-essential without removing something essential attached to it. I don't hate QNX, but for some reason this demo has always irked me; I don't feel it's fair to compare a nifty trick to a complete minimal system. If you want to do something practical on x86, you'll need a lot more than one floppy. Today's debian installer needs 2 1.44 floppies of drivers on top of the most common ones built into the kernel (which lives on its own 1.44 floppy). Alexey From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Aug 3 21:32:37 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 19:32:37 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <004801c6b759$060f34b0$04fea8c0@alpha> <200608031738430757.52518C36@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D2B1C5.7020703@mdrconsult.com> Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > That must be the simplest set of x86 hardware that you can write a > networked, protected VM OS on; all long-lived, well-defined interfaces, > and only one set. No disk drivers even :-) Could you fit into such a > small footprint with their stock kernel? I doubt it; I think this was a > special build. > > Then there's their entirely in-house userland. Could you fit a variety > of things written by different groups? Again, I doubt it; code would be > duplicated, and it would be hard to remove everything non-essential > without removing something essential attached to it. > > I don't hate QNX, but for some reason this demo has always irked me; I > don't feel it's fair to compare a nifty trick to a complete minimal > system. If you want to do something practical on x86, you'll need a lot > more than one floppy. Today's debian installer needs 2 1.44 floppies of > drivers on top of the most common ones built into the kernel (which > lives on its own 1.44 floppy). It was a *demo*. It wasn't meant to be anything but that. QNX is essentially an embedded OS, so I doubt that it was any more special than some production builds. Even if it was, and even stipulating that it was all hand-picked code, it was, and still is, a damned impressive DEMOnstration. The statement that you can't do anything useful from a single floppy is also simply not true. http://www.zelow.no/floppyfw Doc From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 3 22:00:18 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 20:00:18 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <004801c6b759$060f34b0$04fea8c0@alpha> <200608031738430757.52518C36@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608032000180428.52D3295C@10.0.0.252> On 8/4/2006 at 2:15 AM Alexey Toptygin wrote: >On Thu, 3 Aug 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> http://toastytech.com/guis/qnxdemo.html Nifty trick, yes, but still nifty. There's a guy in Lithuania who's written a bit more on the QNX demo: http://qnx.projektas.lt/qnxdemo/qnx_demo_disk.htm Along the same lines is UBCD: http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/insert/start.html I like software stunts. One thing I've been wondering about lately is what's the cheapest (list price) device that will run any sort of an operating system with file I/O and some application? Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 3 22:21:07 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 23:21:07 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608031738430757.52518C36@10.0.0.252> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <004801c6b759$060f34b0$04fea8c0@alpha> <200608031738430757.52518C36@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608032321.07476.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 03 August 2006 08:38 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Maybe, but Linux doesn't have anything like the old QNX demo--an OS and > browser that boots from a single 1.44MB floppy: > > http://toastytech.com/guis/qnxdemo.html Back then it was pretty impressive stuff. As were a few other things. I did a little bit of poking around there and ended up on the page for Desqview/X, something I've always wanted to try and play with a bit. They say: "With a DOS TCP/IP network present DESQview/X can run applications remotely." Does that mean that there isn't any networking support in DV/X itself? (Still having idle thoughts about dos-type stuff with TCP/IP networking somehow. Anybody know what dr-dos uses for a protocol offhand? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 3 22:27:46 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 23:27:46 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D2B1C5.7020703@mdrconsult.com> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <44D2B1C5.7020703@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200608032327.46127.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 03 August 2006 10:32 pm, Doc Shipley wrote: > The statement that you can't do anything useful from a single floppy > is also simply not true. > > http://www.zelow.no/floppyfw I routinely also use tomsrtbt, from Tom's Hardware page, that's basically a single-floppy linux. It comes in real handy when some uppity installer complains because "there's already an OS on that drive!" Boot that, and then dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hdc Not now there ain't! :-) Though it take a while on a larger drive. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ohh at drizzle.com Thu Aug 3 22:38:59 2006 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 20:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: Quoth Chuck Guzis, in part: > I'm sometimes puzzled about this when I consider that most PC owners simply > want to interact with a web browser and send email--and perhaps do the > occasional word processing document and spreadsheet. With the current crop > of operating systems, a staggering amount of hardware is being thrown at > relatively few applications for the most part. For me, at least, the push to upgrade usually comes from either wanting a new media-handling capability (DVD burning, f'rinstance) or from finding a new game that has some requirement my old system won't meet. If it weren't for those two incentives to upgrade, I'd probably continue to use an old 386 machine - like Strong Bad. * I suspect a lot of people upgrade for the same reasons, and there may be a vicious circle of development working: chip designers create faster chips, programmers make neater toys using the new capabilities, people get excited over the toys and buy them, it becomes the standard, the OS bloats a little more, there becomes a push to create faster chips to run the resulting bloatware faster, return to start. There's probably a lot of people, too, who upgrade to the Biggest And Fastest simply because it _is_ the Biggest And Fastest and they have to have it. I was guilty of that attitude myself at an earlier point in my life, and almost bought a NeXT when it was brand-spanking-new just because I was so impressed at the time with the hardware. (Yes, I am embarassed to admit this , though I am still fond of the 68040.) Luckily I was able to give myself a fairly hefty reality check of what the hell I was going to _use_ it for, and talked myself out of it. ** But most people in that get-the-very-fastest-whether-they-need-it-or-not category probably _don't_ talk themselves out of it, which explains things like how the "Cross Fire Gaming Computer" can possibly even exist. *** (Though maybe this is a poor example. "Gold Channel Gamer RAM"?!) -O.- * - http://homestarrunner.com/sbemail94.html ** - http://flyingmoose.org/me/hamlet.htm *** - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260015469715 From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Aug 3 23:35:21 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 21:35:21 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <004801c6b759$060f34b0$04fea8c0@alpha> <200608031738430757.52518C36@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D2CE89.8050906@DakotaCom.Net> Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Thu, 3 Aug 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Maybe, but Linux doesn't have anything like the old QNX demo--an OS and >> browser that boots from a single 1.44MB floppy: >> >> http://toastytech.com/guis/qnxdemo.html >> >> Even back then, it impressed the heck out of me. > > They could only get away with that because of the supported hardware: > > Hardware requirements: > > * 386 or better. > * 8 megs of ram. > * Hardware / RS232 modem (not a winmodem) or NE1000/2000, DEC 21x4x, > or 3com 509 based network card. > * Serial or PS/2 mouse. > * VGA or Vesa 2.0 compatible card. > * No hard disk needed > > That must be the simplest set of x86 hardware that you can write a > networked, protected VM OS on; all long-lived, well-defined interfaces, > and only one set. No disk drivers even :-) Could you fit into such a > small footprint with their stock kernel? I doubt it; I think this was a > special build. Yes and no. Of course it is a special build. Just like bootable *BSD floppies "crunch" the core utilities into a single executable image (with multiple entry points) instead of separate binaries. But, one key difference between the QNX approach and that of most other current OS's is the microkernel architecture. Instead of a BIG monolithic kernel with ALL the drivers installed (or, extra glue for LKM support, etc.), a microkernel based design treats all of these as components which can be plugged together. And *talk* to each other (instead of being invoked "from above"). I suspect that they could REPLACE the support for NE1000 cards with some OTHER card and not change the overall footprint by much. And, *possibly* not even have to relink (!?). Even Mach -- probably the most bloated microkernel -- would fit into a 1MB footprint. OTOH, how big is the latest Linux Kernel? The NetBSD kernel that I run is almost 3M... and I've trimmed out much of the support for devices that aren't present in my machine! > Then there's their entirely in-house userland. Could you fit a variety > of things written by different groups? Again, I doubt it; code would be > duplicated, and it would be hard to remove everything non-essential > without removing something essential attached to it. QNX doesn't try to be a desktop OS. Just like Linux doesn't claim to be MacOS. > I don't hate QNX, but for some reason this demo has always irked me; I > don't feel it's fair to compare a nifty trick to a complete minimal I dont see it as a nifty trick. You want "tricks"? Look at PIC-based web servers :> Gives new meaning to the term "truth in advertising" :-( > system. If you want to do something practical on x86, you'll need a lot > more than one floppy. Today's debian installer needs 2 1.44 floppies of > drivers on top of the most common ones built into the kernel (which > lives on its own 1.44 floppy). But that's a consequence of the way that *they* decided to support the hardware that *they* chose to support! Do they support Mitsumi CD-ROM's? Adaptec 1542's? ATM / SONET? Gee, there's another OS that tres to do all of those things. I think it's made by MS... :> A single floppy is a *lot* of code. You can *do* a lot with that much code (since it only needs to reflect the size of the TEXT segent, more or less, and could conceivably be a compressed executable). Look at what most cell phones do nowadays... If you want to burden the implementation with "this has to run on ANY conceivable x86 machine built since 1980", then you're imposing a lot on the design. How many Linux kernels will boot on a 4MB machine? What about a *1* MB machine?? No, I'm not a fan of QNX (their licensing doesn't justify the value they add). But, I think this is a reasonable marketing ploy -- especially to a market (embedded systems) where an 8MB machine is considered "resource RICH"! From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Aug 3 23:36:37 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 21:36:37 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608032000180428.52D3295C@10.0.0.252> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <004801c6b759$060f34b0$04fea8c0@alpha> <200608031738430757.52518C36@10.0.0.252> <200608032000180428.52D3295C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D2CED5.5040908@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I like software stunts. One thing I've been wondering about lately is > what's the cheapest (list price) device that will run any sort of an > operating system with file I/O and some application? How about a cell phone? From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Aug 3 23:41:21 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 21:41:21 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D254C6.4000800@srv.net> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <44D224F8.1070005@yahoo.co.uk> <44D24063.9020000@yahoo.co.uk> <44D23793.6000200@DakotaCom.Net> <44D254C6.4000800@srv.net> Message-ID: <44D2CFF1.9040608@DakotaCom.Net> Kevin Handy wrote: > Don Y wrote: > >> Exactly. But, moreso, it also decreases reliability. How often >> do we see the same "buffer overrun" bugs creeping into code? >> Wasn't OO design, C++, "design by contract" supposed to BURY >> all of those little problem issues in a way that would make >> them go away FOREVER?? I.e. shouldn't classes take care of >> the details of pushing/appending bytes to a buffer so the >> developer doesn't have to *count* them?? > > Except that few are using C++, and many of those that do > (i.e. kde) have decided that the STL classes are too bloated > because of the boundry checks, and write their own, saving > you an amazing 0.00001% on runtime with only 10% more > memory. My dig was intended at the MS folks. :> They like to write books about how well they handle quality issues like this... I guess they just don't READ them! >> My favorite text editor (including emacs) is Brief (for DOS). >> I take out version 1.1 and run it on a 400MHz machine and it >> *flies*. I can't even imagine what it would do on a 2GHz box! >> Yet, it does everything I want, runs as a text console (though >> uses "line graphics" for the frames of it's "windows"), etc. > > It was probably written entirely in machine language, Yup. I think later versions were rewritten, though. There was a noticeable slowdown moving up towards v3.1 > and with all the DOS limitations built in (8.3 file names, > 640K, direct access to hardware, etc). Updating it to another > CPU or operating system would be a *lot* of work. Perhaps. No idea since the sources aren't available. >> Shame Borland never rereleased it after they bought it >> (or, better yet, open sourced it!) >> > Probably too much "licensed" extras in it, or too "ugly" > to release the source for. Most likely they just don't want > to be bothered about it. I think it was just YABB* *Yet Another Borland Blunder >> Yup. Like constantly telling me I misspelled something instead >> of letting me ASK you if I've misspelled anything (or, compromise, >> *remind* me to ask you...) > > Being genetically incapable of spelling anything the same way > twice in a row, I like the auto-spellcheck feature. Must make words like the personal pronoun 'I' particularly interesting! :> From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 3 23:49:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 21:49:38 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D2CED5.5040908@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <004801c6b759$060f34b0$04fea8c0@alpha> <200608031738430757.52518C36@10.0.0.252> <200608032000180428.52D3295C@10.0.0.252> <44D2CED5.5040908@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200608032149380188.533740C4@10.0.0.252> On 8/3/2006 at 9:36 PM Don Y wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I like software stunts. One thing I've been wondering about lately is >> what's the cheapest (list price) device that will run any sort of an >> operating system with file I/O and some application? > >How about a cell phone? Cheaper. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Aug 3 23:55:18 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 21:55:18 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608032149380188.533740C4@10.0.0.252> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <004801c6b759$060f34b0$04fea8c0@alpha> <200608031738430757.52518C36@10.0.0.252> <200608032000180428.52D3295C@10.0.0.252> <44D2CED5.5040908@DakotaCom.Net> <200608032149380188.533740C4@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D2D336.9090006@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/3/2006 at 9:36 PM Don Y wrote: > >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> I like software stunts. One thing I've been wondering about lately is >>> what's the cheapest (list price) device that will run any sort of an >>> operating system with file I/O and some application? >> How about a cell phone? > > Cheaper. MP3 player. From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Aug 4 00:00:15 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 22:00:15 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D2D336.9090006@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <004801c6b759$060f34b0$04fea8c0@alpha> <200608031738430757.52518C36@10.0.0.252> <200608032000180428.52D3295C@10.0.0.252> <44D2CED5.5040908@DakotaCom.Net> <200608032149380188.533740C4@10.0.0.252> <44D2D336.9090006@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44D2D45F.8010401@mdrconsult.com> Don Y wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 8/3/2006 at 9:36 PM Don Y wrote: >> >>> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> >>>> I like software stunts. One thing I've been wondering about lately is >>>> what's the cheapest (list price) device that will run any sort of an >>>> operating system with file I/O and some application? >>> >>> How about a cell phone? >> >> >> Cheaper. > > > MP3 player. And now begins the "What constitutes an OS?" thread.... Doc From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 4 00:01:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 22:01:19 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D2CED5.5040908@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <004801c6b759$060f34b0$04fea8c0@alpha> <200608031738430757.52518C36@10.0.0.252> <200608032000180428.52D3295C@10.0.0.252> <44D2CED5.5040908@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200608032201190331.5341F378@10.0.0.252> I'm trying to remember--the smallest DOS/360 memory footprint was what, 8K? 16K? Whatever, it wasn't much to support 1 background and 2 foreground partitions. Lots and lots of supervisior transient "phases" of course, read in from disk, but still it was impressive what could be done in a small amount of memory. Almost makes CP/M seem bloated by comparison. I recall that when Neil Lincoln was working on a proposal for a supercomputer for NASA Ames (IIRC he called it his Super-X-by-God) back in the 1970's, , he solemnly informed me that the OS would be segregated in its own dedicated memory--all 16K of it. Now, that was 16K 64-bit words and I assume that most of the job control and slower I/O tasks would be handled by other machines, but to me it represented a line drawn in the sand. I've always thought it a pity that other manufacturers didn't follow his lead and legislate in hardware the size of the OS kernel. Cheers, Chuck From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Fri Aug 4 00:19:42 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 22:19:42 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D2D45F.8010401@mdrconsult.com> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <004801c6b759$060f34b0$04fea8c0@alpha> <200608031738430757.52518C36@10.0.0.252> <200608032000180428.52D3295C@10.0.0.252> <44D2CED5.5040908@DakotaCom.Net> <200608032149380188.533740C4@10.0.0.252> <44D2D336.9090006@DakotaCom.Net> <44D2D45F.8010401@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <44D2D8EE.1020804@DakotaCom.Net> Doc Shipley wrote: >> MP3 player. > > And now begins the "What constitutes an OS?" thread.... Exactly! Every application domain has its own idea of what an OS's role should be. The OS is supposed to be a "resource manager" -- but, *what* resources? And *how* does it have to manage them?? Are resources just hardware entities? Or, software mechanisms created in/by the OS for use by applications, etc.? I.e. is a simple "program loader" -- read in a batch of cards, jump to the first instruction and start execution -- an OS? It *is* managing ALL of the machine's resources! Except it does so on an all-or-nothing basis. :> Too much quicksand in this sort of argument... ;-) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 4 01:24:03 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 02:24:03 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608032201190331.5341F378@10.0.0.252> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <004801c6b759$060f34b0$04fea8c0@alpha> <200608031738430757.52518C36@10.0.0.252> <200608032000180428.52D3295C@10.0.0.252> <44D2CED5.5040908@DakotaCom.Net> <200608032201190331.5341F378@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > I'm trying to remember--the smallest DOS/360 memory footprint was what, 8K? > 16K? Whatever, it wasn't much to support 1 background and 2 foreground > partitions. Lots and lots of supervisior transient "phases" of course, > read in from disk, but still it was impressive what could be done in a > small amount of memory. Almost makes CP/M seem bloated by comparison. TSS/8 is also a good example. > Now, that was 16K 64-bit words > and I assume that most of the job control and slower I/O tasks would be > handled by other machines, but to me it represented a line drawn in the > sand. I've always thought it a pity that other manufacturers didn't follow > his lead and legislate in hardware the size of the OS kernel. I do not think that is a good idea. It is the best way for a computer architect to paint himself into a corner, often with horrible results. Any long term planning absolutely must include places for expansion, simply because every computer system gets more complex with time - bloat, as many call it. Yes, you can set the boundaries of the kernel in stone, and stick new developments outside the boundaries as bags-on-the-side, but eventually things will get ugly and drag everything down. Look what happened to CDC Cybers or DEC PDP-10s - too much of the architectures hit their limits, with the end results being ugly things like Cyber 180s and Jupiters (almost). -- Will From cc at corti-net.de Fri Aug 4 04:36:25 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 11:36:25 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Not classic, but free: HP-UX (and the B2000) In-Reply-To: <6cf00f2ad9df4e6890c6b67f7815aeea@valleyimplants.com> References: <6cf00f2ad9df4e6890c6b67f7815aeea@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Aug 2006, Scott Quinn wrote: > Nope, better: the development tools install and operate. Just consider > yourself duty-bound to become a HP 9000 developer and promote the > platform if you use them, and everything should be O.K. Is that a new feature? Do you get the Customer ID and Licence Code for free now? (These are necessary to unlock e.g. the compilers on the Applications CD) Christian From pechter at gmail.com Fri Aug 4 06:55:15 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 07:55:15 -0400 Subject: OT: Need Unix tech in Springfield, Missouri area In-Reply-To: <44D0FBFF.3040007@DakotaCom.Net> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200608020905430571.4B558E57@10.0.0.252> <44D0EFBB.5050909@DakotaCom.Net> <200608021203410955.4BF87D55@10.0.0.252> <44D0FBFF.3040007@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: If all else fails there's always kermit and a null modem cable. The binary is probably on line at Columbia.edu... On 8/2/06, Don Y wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 8/2/2006 at 11:32 AM Don Y wrote: > > > >> Unfortunately, you then need *one* box with hardware suitable > >> to capture the incoming bytestream (i.e. *not* an SPP). > > > > I know this is a vintage list, but at a minimum, PS/2-style > bidirectional > > parallel ports have been around for a very long time, so this shouldn't > be > > a problem. Even if you had an old XT, printer and monochrome adapter > cards > > can usually be modified to operate in bi-directional mode. > > > > After that, it's just the cable and a bit of software on the receiving > > side. > > Or, a small bit of hardware to mux the 8 data lines onto the > incoming status lines (SPP). I.e. you only need *one* of > these and *one* machine with this capability to handle > a variety of "source" machines. > > >> Ideally, the source box would have MD5 or some other hash > >> available so you could gain some reassurance that the > >> received image agreed with the sent image. > > > > CRC-32 would probably do if MD5 wasn't available, and it's short enough > > that if you had to key the C source in (assuming that the SCO box has a > C > > compiler), it wouldn't be an onerous job. You could probably do that > > while the transfer was running. > > Yes. Anything that provides a reasonably unambiguos "signature" > > > Failing that, you could transfer the tarball twice and compare the two > > files. A miscompare wouldn't tell you which was bad, but it would at > least > > indicate that something had gone wrong. > > I'd shy away from that. In addition to the issue of > "what happens if you get N different results (N>2)", > you are also vulnerable to any problems in the *mechanism*. > > E.g., if the I/F was not 8 bit clean, you would *think* > you had a successful transfer and actually lost all the MSB's. > Likewise if a signal is shorted in the cable, it will > consistently yield the same (wrong!) results. > From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Fri Aug 4 07:50:30 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 14:50:30 +0200 Subject: classiccmp todo/idea list In-Reply-To: <011001c68b79$034699a0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <011001c68b79$034699a0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1154695830.31868.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-06-08 at 22:58 -0500, Jay West wrote: > Tony wrote.... > > Hmmm... As a general point here, I'm a little fed up with classic > > computer websites that show a front view of the machine and little more. > > OK, perhaps I use the web a little differently to most people, but when I > > do a search on some classic computer, I normally know what it looks like, > > I've got one in front of me :-). Pictures of the insides would be a lot > > more use. > If you've got one in front of you, why do you need pictures of the inside? > ;) But seriously... my goal for this wasn't for the grizzled veterans. Part > of my ideas for the future of ClassicCMP.org are designed to help bring > new/young people into the hobby. I agree. One of the things that got me curious about the field was how neat these dinosaurs looked. Even my cctech-uninterested friends agree that some things in my collection looks neat. > Otherwise it'd be a mailing list and a > character-based text/website. Newbies don't know when they see a straight-8 > what it is. Or an altair. They didn't grow up drooling over one. Well, *I* sure did. The Altair, that is. :) -toresbe :) From javickers at solutionengineers.com Fri Aug 4 07:53:12 2006 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 13:53:12 +0100 Subject: SPAM being let through by the moderators - why? Message-ID: <03a601c6b7c5$044244d0$0401a8c0@solution.engineers> This is a plea to whoever is allowing SPAM mail to be sent via the cctech list: Please!!! Look at the subject before you hit the "approve" button... if you're not sure if it's SPAM or not, then DEFER it, and (once you've approved those that are definitely OK), look at the text of the posts (click the "show details of all posts" link at the top of the list), and individually allow or discard posts accordingly. I do appreciate that if there's more than about 50 posts - and is basically impossible once the backlog of postings hits 1000+, this can be a right pain in the proverbial; but the whole idea of this moderation thing is to (a) keep stuff on topic, and (b) prevent spam from infesting the list. Cheers, Ade. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/407 - Release Date: 03/08/2006 From drb at msu.edu Fri Aug 4 09:13:43 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 10:13:43 -0400 Subject: M9058 Message-ID: <200608041413.k74EDhtp027074@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Anyone know the going price for DEC M9058 (dist board for RQDX3) boards these days? Thanks, De From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Aug 4 09:27:31 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 10:27:31 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D2CE89.8050906@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <44D2CE89.8050906@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200608041027.32002.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 04 August 2006 00:35, Don Y wrote: > If you want to burden the implementation with "this has to > run on ANY conceivable x86 machine built since 1980", then > you're imposing a lot on the design. How many Linux kernels > will boot on a 4MB machine? I've done it before, the main issue is that there's so little space left over for userspace apps to run in... > What about a *1* MB machine?? None. The Linux kernel copies itself to "extended" memory as a part of the booting process. Well, I should say "none" unless you consider this, which is based off of Linux... http://elks.sf.net Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 4 09:58:11 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 07:58:11 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608041027.32002.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <44D2CE89.8050906@DakotaCom.Net> <200608041027.32002.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: At 10:27 AM -0400 8/4/06, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >On Friday 04 August 2006 00:35, Don Y wrote: > > If you want to burden the implementation with "this has to >> run on ANY conceivable x86 machine built since 1980", then >> you're imposing a lot on the design. How many Linux kernels >> will boot on a 4MB machine? > >I've done it before, the main issue is that there's so little space left >over for userspace apps to run in... I used to have a 386sx/16 Twinhead laptop with 4MB RAM, Math Coprocesser, and a 320MB HD running Linux *AND* X-Windows (the system had been upgraded from 1MB RAM to 4MB, the Coprocessor added, and from a 40MBHD to a 320MB HD specifically to run Linux and BSD). Of course about the only thing I ran under X-Windows was xdvi and a couple of xterms. The main use for the system was running TeX, sed, and awk. The interesting thing was, I had thought that MGR would be the more efficient windowing system, but I discovered that X-Windows did better. I forget what I used for a window manager, I think it was something pretty light weight, it wasn't twm, it was probably either olvwm, or fvwm. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Fri Aug 4 10:44:09 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 08:44:09 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <44D2CE89.8050906@DakotaCom.Net> <200608041027.32002.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <44D36B49.4020601@DakotaCom.Net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:27 AM -0400 8/4/06, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> On Friday 04 August 2006 00:35, Don Y wrote: >> > If you want to burden the implementation with "this has to >>> run on ANY conceivable x86 machine built since 1980", then >>> you're imposing a lot on the design. How many Linux kernels >>> will boot on a 4MB machine? >> >> I've done it before, the main issue is that there's so little space left >> over for userspace apps to run in... > > I used to have a 386sx/16 Twinhead laptop with 4MB RAM, Math > Coprocesser, and a 320MB HD running Linux *AND* X-Windows (the system > had been upgraded from 1MB RAM to 4MB, the Coprocessor added, and from a > 40MBHD to a 320MB HD specifically to run Linux and BSD). FreeBSD used to run "acceptably" on a 4-5M 386sx -- before bloat set it. One of my Opus PM's runs with *2* MB of physical memory -- and currently 20MB of disk. From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Aug 4 11:43:52 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 12:43:52 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 04 Aug 2006 08:44:09 PDT." <44D36B49.4020601@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200608041643.k74Ghq4o029657@mwave.heeltoe.com> Don Y wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >> At 10:27 AM -0400 8/4/06, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>> On Friday 04 August 2006 00:35, Don Y wrote: >>> > If you want to burden the implementation with "this has to >>>> run on ANY conceivable x86 machine built since 1980", then >>>> you're imposing a lot on the design. How many Linux kernels >>>> will boot on a 4MB machine? >>> >>> I've done it before, the main issue is that there's so little space left >>> over for userspace apps to run in... I run linux on the ceiva picture frames (the old ones). It only has 4mb of ram. That's enough for the kernel, several apps and a ramdisk file system. If I had more free time I'd run uclinux - I suspect everything would a lot smaller (but I'm not completely sure) -brad From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 4 12:15:47 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 11:15:47 -0600 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <005701c6b759$9fadd5e0$04fea8c0@alpha> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org><200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <44D224F8.1070005@yahoo.co.uk> <005701c6b759$9fadd5e0$04fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <44D380C3.2040305@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: > > You **can** choose, but why? In the early 90's I paid $650 for a CD-ROM > (Nec intersect). Now you pay what? $20? For a CD Recorder? :o? > Well since I can get modern computers that are fast and reliable for peanuts now days, I spent my $$$ on a old PDP-8/e replica that shows what real computers are. :) ^H^H were. Ben Alias Woodelf From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 4 13:24:08 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 11:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP Plotter Ink Message-ID: <200608041824.k74IO8ed012837@onyx.spiritone.com> This is probably a bit off-topic, but as it specifically deals with using out-of-date supplies, I'm hoping no one will object and that people here might have some ideas. I've recently inherited a couple of plotter rooms with HP 1055CM and 5500PS plotters. These are the 36" to 42" variety, and the Ink cartridges and Plotter Head/Cleaner packs tend to each cost as much as a home Inkjet printer. I spot checked the supplies earlier this week and discovered that with very few exceptions most of it is out of date, with dates ranging from 2002 through 2006. Does anyone have any idea how safe it is to use old Ink or printhead/cleaner kits? How about any guidelines for when the stuff is to old. Obviously this is not the sort of question I can get a good answer from HP on, as they're going to simply want to sell me new supplies. Unlike the home inkjets these do not seem to have any time-bombs built into them where they stop working after the date is passed. Thanks, Zane From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Aug 4 03:03:40 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 09:03:40 +0100 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Aug 2006 17:38:43 PDT." <200608031738430757.52518C36@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608040803.JAA24367@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Chuck Guzis said: > Maybe, but Linux doesn't have anything like the old QNX demo--an OS and > browser that boots from a single 1.44MB floppy: I thought is was quite impressive too, but there's obviously a lot of trickery involved and it wouldn't run on one of my machines. Linux has a single floppy system with a web _server_, along with the other stuff, though: http://www.freesco.org/ I use it as a print server. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From classiccmp at ian.viemeister.com Fri Aug 4 14:06:44 2006 From: classiccmp at ian.viemeister.com (Ian Viemeister) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 15:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP Plotter Ink In-Reply-To: <200608041824.k74IO8ed012837@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608041824.k74IO8ed012837@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Aug 2006, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I've recently inherited a couple of plotter rooms with HP 1055CM and 5500PS > plotters. These are the 36" to 42" variety, and the Ink cartridges and > Plotter Head/Cleaner packs tend to each cost as much as a home Inkjet > printer. ...per color. A full set (for the 5500, at least), of C,M,Y,LC,LM,K ink (0.6l/per), and printer/printhead cleaners runs around $1k. > I spot checked the supplies earlier this week and discovered that with very > few exceptions most of it is out of date, with dates ranging from 2002 > through 2006. Does anyone have any idea how safe it is to use old Ink or > printhead/cleaner kits? How about any guidelines for when the stuff is to > old. We have used both ink and printhead packs up to two years past the marked expiration date (we had lower usage and each set lasted longer than we realized). It does in fact work, but you'll start to see slightly lower color quality, and the heads will start to clog and require cleaning more frequently. We finally wrote off the remaining expired supplies, and are now operating on a "buy when needed" policy for the 5500 -- the sheer size of the ink carts gives plenty of time to place an order before they run out. > Obviously this is not the sort of question I can get a good answer from > HP on, as they're going to simply want to sell me new supplies. > Unlike the home inkjets these do not seem to have any time-bombs built into > them where they stop working after the date is passed. The one major caution I'd have is if they are on an HP support contract (and considering the failure rate we've seen, and the relative costs of the contract versus out-of-warranty parts, it's more than worth it), then if the out of date ink clogs the ink supply tubes (the pressure system that runs from the left-hand ink tanks to the printheads), HP may not consider the replacement (several $k) covered under contract. --Ian From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 4 14:28:16 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 12:28:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP Plotter Ink In-Reply-To: from "Ian Viemeister" at Aug 04, 2006 03:06:44 PM Message-ID: <200608041928.k74JSGMM021806@onyx.spiritone.com> > ...per color. A full set (for the 5500, at least), of C,M,Y,LC,LM,K ink > (0.6l/per), and printer/printhead cleaners runs around $1k. Where are you getting those kind of prices from? We're paying over $2k for full set. Though if the 5500 is anything like the 1055CM's (I'm more familiar with them), you replace the printhead/cleaners far less frequently than the ink. > The one major caution I'd have is if they are on an HP support contract > (and considering the failure rate we've seen, and the relative costs of > the contract versus out-of-warranty parts, it's more than worth it), then > if the out of date ink clogs the ink supply tubes (the pressure system > that runs from the left-hand ink tanks to the printheads), HP may not > consider the replacement (several $k) covered under contract. Ouch, good point. I think that will help sway the decision. Thanks, Zane From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Aug 4 15:10:24 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 16:10:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: Sun cables In-Reply-To: <00ab01c6b637$77f6b030$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> <00ab01c6b637$77f6b030$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: I'm looking for a couple of Sun 13W3 M-M video cables, and type 4 or 5 keyboard cables. Anyone have some extras they want to get rid of? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From classiccmp at ian.viemeister.com Fri Aug 4 15:49:49 2006 From: classiccmp at ian.viemeister.com (Ian Viemeister) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 16:49:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP Plotter Ink In-Reply-To: <200608041928.k74JSGMM021806@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608041928.k74JSGMM021806@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Aug 2006, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Where are you getting those kind of prices from? Generally CDW-G (educational and volume discounts probably help here). > We're paying over $2k for full set. Even without any discounts, you should be paying well under $2k -- the ink/printhead combo pack (C4990A through C4995A) runs around $300/color pre-discount, and the ink three-pack (C5066A through C5071A) is just over $500/color. That gives you a ink/printhead set at $1800, and ink-only at a bit over $1k per set, and that's at list price. > Though if the 5500 is anything like the 1055CM's (I'm more familiar with > them), you replace the printhead/cleaners far less frequently than the > ink. Yup. I haven't had a printhead need to be replaced due to usage yet. (They've just clogged on old ink...) Admittedly, we don't have very high volume, though. To try to bring this on topic..... I've got several (soon to be replaced) on-topic PowerMacs printing to a 5500PS that has eight times the RAM, ten times the drive space, and has a significantly faster processor than the macs. (Oh, and the plotter has 100Mb ethernet) The 5500 does a very good imatation of twiddling its thumbs and tapping its foot while waiting for a job to finally finish arriving, and frequently spends less time actually printing than it took to send the job. --Ian From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Fri Aug 4 16:29:59 2006 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 16:29:59 -0500 Subject: HP3000/922 attempts at booting... In-Reply-To: References: <200608041928.k74JSGMM021806@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: I am trying to get my "new" hp3000/922 up and running. It is going through startup diagnostics but is failing to boot. If anyone has any ideas, I would appreciate them. Here is some info: The message: "error in IODC_ENTRY_INIT call to initialize Logical Module (LM) status returned from IODC=-7" The system appears to have 2 internal HPIB disks and 2 external HPIB disks (in a separate rack). There are 2 HPIB boards in the chassis and 3 HPIB ports at the bottom of the CPU (below the I/O chassis)...thus I have a potential of 5 places to connect the external HPIB drives to...I'm not sure where to plug 'em in. The external drives have ID's of 2 and 4. The system also has a SCSI card, but no scsi devices that I am aware of. The system has a default primary boot path of 4.1.0.0.0.0 and a secondary of 4.1.3.0.0.0 I have tried to force a boot to each of these addresses but neither one works. I am experiences with hp9000 systems w/scsi drives, but hpib is new to me. thanks for any ideas! -Bob -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From halarewich at gmail.com Fri Aug 4 17:20:31 2006 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 15:20:31 -0700 Subject: Wanted: Sun cables In-Reply-To: References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374D9@MEOW.catcorner.org> <00ab01c6b637$77f6b030$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <6d6501090608041520r185503a1jadbe464569b1bc67@mail.gmail.com> hi if u cant find anything else check out this link http://www.vfxweb.com/index.php?maincateg=18 and mor specifically http://www.vfxweb.com/index.php?productid=9643 and http://www.vfxweb.com/index.php?productid=9642 :) Chris On 8/4/06, Mike Loewen wrote: > > > I'm looking for a couple of Sun 13W3 M-M video cables, and type 4 or 5 > keyboard cables. Anyone have some extras they want to get rid of? > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 4 18:07:38 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 18:07:38 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Hi, I'm new... Message-ID: <200608042307.k74N7cWp042095@keith.ezwind.net> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I figured (as you would) that my harddrive > > > > > > Actually, I might not. My first reaction would > be > > to > > > stick a voltmeter on > > > the power lines. > > > > errr... no voltimeter here, nor do i have a clue > > where to buy one from (or how to use one). > > Note I said 'my first reaction'. I am something of a > hardware type... > > That said, I do feel that if you're going to run a > classic computer (as > opposed to running the software on an emulator), > then you are going to > have to learn a little bit about hardware and do > your own repairs. I make > no secret of the fact that I totally object to > making essentially random > changes (so-called 'board swapping') in the hope t he > machine will work > again. I feel the only way to keep one of these > machines -- in fact any > machine -- working is to make measurements, figure > out what the problem > is, and then correct it. The first 2 stages should > take a lot longer than > the last. If you're spending most of your time > changing parts, you're > probably going about it in the wrong way. > > As regards getting a meter, Maplin Electronics, RS > Components > (http://www.rswww.com) and Farnell > (http://www.farnell.com) all sell > them. Personally, I find the best multimeters > (combined > voltmeter/ammeter/ohmmeter) are made by Fluke, and > that's what I would > buy. Problem is they don't come cheap. > Realistically, you can probably > get away with a much cheaper (and less accurate) > instrument for this sort > of work. > > I have no idea what your background/knowledge is. A > good book on general > electronics is 'The Art of Electronics' by Horrowi tz > and Hill, but that > might be rather advanced for you at this stage. Al as > I don't know any > more introductory books than that. > As far as electronics go, it's practically zero. I know how the CPU works and runs everything , in theory, but I can't program in machine language yet. As for how the CPU and everything else works physically, I don't really know anything, but that is partly why I was keen to sign up to this list. > > > e > > > that to pass too much > > > current, but from my memory of the A500 circui t, > I > > > can't think of any > > > obvious candidate. > > > > > > > Ahem, it's an A600 I own ;) > > Yes, I know. I don't have an A600 circuit diagram. I > am assuming the > basic design, at least around the PSU input > circuitry, is going to be > similar. > Ahh, I see. > > > > > > > > Have you tried running the machine with the > cover > > > off to see what is > > > getting hot? It might be something as simple a s > a > > > leaking decoupling > > > capacitor. > > > > > > > I was planning too, but I had concerns about > > being electricuted (spelling?) as I had never > > If the PSU is external (as I believe it is), then > there are no high > voltages in the computer itself. The PSU outputs > +5V, +12V, and -12V to > the computer. None of those voltages is high enoug h > to give you a shock. > > The most dangerous voltage you are likely to come > across in classic > computing is the mains or a 350V DC voltage produc ed > by directly > rectifying the mains This turns up in what's calle d > 'Switch Mode Power > Supplies' (SMPSUs), and most computer supplies are > of this type. This > voltage is lethal. It's also likely to appear on > metal heatsinks, etc, in > such supplies. Don't work on one of those unless y ou > really know what you > are doing. > Ok... no heat sinks in my A600 :) > Monitors are often claimed to contain lethal > voltages. Well, there's > mains (and most colour monitors use an SMPSU> circ uit, so the hazard I've > just mentioned is there). But the even higher > voltages to the CRT are > generally only able to supply low currents, and ar e > unlikely to be fatal. > Don't take risks, though, 25000V is darn unpleasan t. > No problems there either, as I don't use a monitor. I plug my A600 into my TV via the RF cable. The picture quality is good enough for me. >> snip << > > > > > What would the "leaking decoupling capacitor" > > look like, if that was the cause? > > It will look like any other capacitor. The 'leak' is > an internal > electrical leak (a sort of weak short circuit). > You'd have to find it by > doing electrical tests. > > > > > Which is the capacitor? Anyone know? > > The thing about decoupling capacitors is that they > provide a local source > of energy for the various chips, thus avoiding the > voltage drop due to > the resistance, and more particularly the > inductance, of the supply > connections. Therefore there is one (or more) next > to each chip. And > there's no way _anyone_ can tell you which has > failed without doing more > tests. > Ahhh, ok. > -tony > > > > Probably best you didn't get the 16, as it's > > inferior to the 12! > > Come again? The 16 has a 68000 processor board (as > well as the Z80) and > runs Xenix (along with TRS-DOS and CP/M). The mode l > 12 is a Z80 only, and > runs CP/M and TRS-DOS, although I belive the 68K > board can be added later. > > > The 12 was actually made later than the 16 > > and supports various modes making it > > compatible with 16 and 4 (?) software > > (and hardware?). Infact I think the Model 12 > > I would be very suprised if the Model 12 could use > Model 4 hardware or > software. You certainly can't directly read M4 dis ks > in an M12 (due to > the fact the former uses 5.25" disks, the latter > 8"), for example. > > -tony I'm relatively new to the TRS-80, and can only go by what I have read in the issues of 80 Microcomputing I have. You, on the other hand, clearly are an expert compared to myself. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 4 17:24:30 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 23:24:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608032322.TAA13206@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Aug 3, 6 07:15:00 pm Message-ID: > > >> I perfer to work with older systems (386s are fun!) [...] > > I am curious as to what is 'fun' about 386s (I assume you mean PC > > compatibles, and not, for example, Sequent multi-processor machines). > > Well, I'm not the person you're responding to, but I have some > possible suggestions. > > > So the real low-level hardware/software hackability of these machines > > would seem to be little different from a more modern PC. > > I'm not so sure. > > While I've never tried, I'd lay decent odds that it's a good deal > easier to cobble together a working ISA board than a working PCI board. I'd forgotten that. Yes, an ISA board can be built from junk-box parts in an hour or so. Another thing, it's a lot easier to interface to the parallel, serial or joystick ports than to Useless Serial Botch. I guess a 386 machine is very likely to have at least the first 2 of those, modern machines might well be USB only. > Also, wasn't 386 instruction execution time predictible to the > clock-cycle level (as opposed to more recent machines with caches and I thought even the 8086 did some pre-fetching of instructions. Which means even that chip is less predicatable than, say, a Z80. > And, of course, it's entirely possible that 16-year-old happens to be > emotionally attached to 386s for reasons completely unrelated to their > technical merits or lack thereof - perhaps there's some cherished game Sure. That's why I'm curious about why he's interested in such machines. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 4 18:28:23 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 00:28:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <200608042307.k74N7cWp042095@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Aug 4, 6 06:07:38 pm Message-ID: > > I have no idea what your background/knowledge is. > A > > good book on general > > electronics is 'The Art of Electronics' by Horrowi > tz > > and Hill, but that > > might be rather advanced for you at this stage. Al > as > > I don't know any > > more introductory books than that. > > > > As far as electronics go, it's practically zero. OK... > I know how the CPU works and runs everything > , in theory, but I can't program in machine > language yet. > As for how the CPU and everything else works > physically, I don't really know anything, but There are, unfortunaely, very few books that actually explain how the CPU works. Most introductory hardware books explain things like the AND and OR gats and flip-flops (don't worry if these terms mean nothing to you, they're just the basic building blocks of computer circuits), and then tell you the CPU exists. It's almost as if the CPU runs on some kind of magic. I can assure you that it doesn't, and that many older, simpler CPUs are understandable at the gate level (or even the transistor level). I know how _I_ learnt this stuff. I had already understood how to use gates, flip-flops, etc. I mamaged to get the service manuals for an old minicomputer, and I sat down for a couple of _months_ until I understood it all. Of course back then there was no classiccmp list, I didn't have anyone to ask. I was very much on my own. > that is partly why I was keen to sign up > to this list. Eceellent!. Wanting to learn is the most important thing. [Mains voltages etc] > > voltage is lethal. It's also likely to appear on > > metal heatsinks, etc, in > > such supplies. Don't work on one of those unless y > ou > > really know what you > > are doing. > > > > Ok... no heat sinks in my A600 :) It's only heatsinks in high voltage circuits (like the mains side of SMPSUs, or the horizontal scan section of monitors and TVs) that might be at a dangerous voltage. Heatsinks, say, on top of a CPU chip, or a regulator IC on a motherboard, are very likely to be at ground potential. But if in doubt, ask. > > > > Monitors are often claimed to contain lethal > > voltages. Well, there's > > mains (and most colour monitors use an SMPSU> circ > uit, so the hazard I've > > just mentioned is there). But the even higher > > voltages to the CRT are > > generally only able to supply low currents, and ar > e > > unlikely to be fatal. > > Don't take risks, though, 25000V is darn unpleasan > t. > > > > No problems there either, as I don't use a > monitor. I plug my A600 into my TV via the > RF cable. The picture quality is good enough > for me. Well, a TV is essentially a monitor with an extra bit -- the radio receiver circuit -- added. It also contians high voltages to operate the CRT. And most, if not all, modern TVs use a SMPSU circuit. Doesn't your TV have a SCART socket? Can't you connect the RGB outputs of the A600 there? -tony From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 4 19:05:40 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 19:05:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Hi, I'm new... Message-ID: <200608050005.k7505dq5043235@keith.ezwind.net> --- Tony Duell wrote: >> snip << > > > I know how the CPU works and runs everything > > , in theory, but I can't program in machine > > language yet. > > As for how the CPU and everything else works > > physically, I don't really know anything, but > > There are, unfortunaely, very few books that > actually explain how the CPU > works. Most introductory hardware books explain > things like the AND and > OR gats and flip-flops (don't worry if these terms > mean nothing to you, > they're just the basic building blocks of computer > circuits), and then > tell you the CPU exists. It's almost as if the CPU > runs on some kind of > magic. > Hehe... abracadrabra. > I can assure you that it doesn't, and that many > older, simpler CPUs are > understandable at the gate level (or even the > transistor level). > > I know how _I_ learnt this stuff. I had already > understood how to use > gates, flip-flops, etc. I mamaged to get the servi ce > manuals for an old > minicomputer, and I sat down for a couple of > _months_ until I understood > it all. Of course back then there was no classiccm p > list, I didn't have > anyone to ask. I was very much on my own. > Perhaps there are service manuals for the Amiga?? I know I wanted to get my hands on the Amiga RKRM's (Rom Kernel Reference Manuals), but they will be hard to find in paper form. > > [Mains voltages etc] > > > > voltage is lethal. It's also likely to appear on > > > metal heatsinks, etc, in > > > such supplies. Don't work on one of those unle ss > y > > ou > > > really know what you > > > are doing. > > > > > > > Ok... no heat sinks in my A600 :) > > It's only heatsinks in high voltage circuits (like > the mains side of > SMPSUs, or the horizontal scan section of monitors > and TVs) that might be > at a dangerous voltage. Heatsinks, say, on top of a > CPU chip, or a > regulator IC on a motherboard, are very likely to > be at ground > potential. But if in doubt, ask. > Ok. > > > > > > > Monitors are often claimed to contain lethal > > > voltages. Well, there's > > > mains (and most colour monitors use an SMPSU> > circ > > uit, so the hazard I've > > > just mentioned is there). But the even higher > > > voltages to the CRT are > > > generally only able to supply low currents, an d > ar > > e > > > unlikely to be fatal. > > > Don't take risks, though, 25000V is darn > unpleasan > > t. > > > > > > > No problems there either, as I don't use a > > monitor. I plug my A600 into my TV via the > > RF cable. The picture quality is good enough > > for me. > > Well, a TV is essentially a monitor with an extra > bit -- the radio > receiver circuit -- added. It also contians high > voltages to operate the > CRT. And most, if not all, modern TVs use a SMPSU > circuit. > > Doesn't your TV have a SCART socket? Can't you > connect the RGB outputs of > the A600 there? > > -tony > No RGB cable for the Amiga and the SCART socket is already used: I have a 3 way SCART box which is plugged into the TV's SCART, with SCART's from the VCR, DVD player and my Dreamcast plugged into that. I have used the old Sega Megadrive (aka Genesis) RF switch box (the one that lets you switch between "Game" and "Aerial") and plugged that into the aerial socket on the TV. Into the switch box I have the aerial (for terrestrial TV) and my Amiga RF cable. The A/V sockets at the front are used by my Nintendo 64 (which is sat ontop of the TV), or Gamecube (sat next to Dreamcast under TV, but ontop of VCR and DVD player) depending on which Nintendo console I want to play. It's a nice setup.... but loads of cables :( Besides, it's not like I'm gonna try and do Hi-Def stuff on the Amiga! (NB: I know that ain't possible, unless you count the 2 colour super-hires screen mode - and before anyone asks I know nothing about Hi-Def screens and/ or widescreen TV's, but thats ok coz I don't want them). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From shirsch at adelphia.net Fri Aug 4 19:17:32 2006 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 20:17:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Alpha C compilers In-Reply-To: <84d1320c3e9c4da6b37917999d2cce4b@valleyimplants.com> References: <84d1320c3e9c4da6b37917999d2cce4b@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Aug 2006, Scott Quinn wrote: > > Perhaps I'm reading http://h30097.www3.hp.com/noncommercial-unix/ > wrong, but the "full suite of development tools" certainly seems as > though it would include compilers, although I guess that MBAs play with > language often. I know for a positive fact that the VMS program includes > compilers (C, C++, FORTRAN, BASIC, MACRO (VAX-MACRO on AXP) Unless I'm suffering from early-onset senility, I recall that the hobbyist distribution had media and licensing for the C compiler (and linker, debugger, headers, etc, etc). The C++ compiler requires a you-pay-for-it type license. What makes me reasonably sure is that a few years back, they (Compaq at the time) sent me e-mail inviting participation in the beta program for cxx next-generation. After downloading it, I discovered I couldn't run it and dropped their sales engineering folks a note asking about this. They told me that contacting the hobbyist licensee's was an error and that I was not eligible for the program. You are correct that OpenVMS included all the good stuff. The person I corresponded with admitted his disappointment at not being able to offer me a hobby license for Alpha, but apparently the policy was set upstairs from where he sat! Steve From steerex at mindspring.com Fri Aug 4 20:25:56 2006 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 21:25:56 -0400 Subject: HP3000/922 attempts at booting... Message-ID: <01C6B80C.9334B0A0@MAGGIE> >> The system appears to have 2 internal HPIB disks and 2 external HPIB disks (in a separate rack). There are 2 HPIB boards in the chassis and 3 HPIB ports at the bottom of the CPU (below the I/O chassis)...thus I have a potential of 5 places to connect the external HPIB drives to...I'm not sure where to plug 'em in. >> The system has a default primary boot path of 4.1.0.0.0.0 and a secondary of 4.1.3.0.0.0 >> The external drives have ID's of 2 and 4. Hey Bob, I don't own a 922, but I do have several 832s. I think they are fundimentally the same. The BOOT PATH "4.1.0.*.*.*.*" indicates that the system is loooking for a device with address "0" attached to the I/O card "4.1". The PATH "4.1.3.*.*.*.*" indicates that the system is looking for adevice with address "3" attached to the I/O card "4.1". NOTE: The extra 0's are used to access additional disk partitions or parameters. Generally they do not need to be specified. The BOOT PATH could be abbreviated to "4.1.0". Since the external devices are addressed as "4" and "2", they were not used as the PRIMARY or ALTERNATE boot devices. At this point, I would leave them unconnected. Once you get the system working, you can go back and attach the devices to see what is on the disks. OK... The 3 HPIB connectors below the I/O cage are the connections to the internal HPIB devices. The system supports up to 4 internal drives in two chains. So, one HPIB connector goes to each of the two chains and the other connector goes to the internal TAPE DRIVE. The ID plate by the connectors should tell you which connector goes to each chain. You are looking for the chain labeled "0" and "3". At this point, I wouldn't worry about the TAPE drive. Get the disks working first. NOTE: When the system boots, the LEDS on the front panel will tell you how many internal disks there are. If your system has two drives, one of the internal chains has no devices attached. That's probably the case. The two cards in the I/O card cage are the HPIB I/O cards. I don't think there was a "standard" installation so, the BOOT disks could have been attached to either I/O card. I would connect a HPIB cable from one of the I/O cards to one of the connectors below the cage and see if it boots. NOTE: HPIB devices are generally "noisy" when thay are accessed. When the computer is talking to a HPIB disk, it's no secret. NOTE: Don't change the addresses of the HPIB drives and don't move the HPIB I/O card in the cage. The OS will not boot if the PATH has changed. When the OS trys to mount the drives, it will fail because the PATHS are no longer legit. Let me know if this helps. See ya, SteveRob From segin2005 at gmail.com Fri Aug 4 21:06:40 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 22:06:40 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608030027.k730RPfY000686@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608030027.k730RPfY000686@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <44D3FD30.8010909@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>I am a 16 year old high school student who works with computer daily. I >>perfer to work with older systems (386s are fun!) because they are just >>so damned reliable. Mainly, I do software development, but when I have >>time, I uhh... can't remember. > > > Welcome to the list! > > I'm curious, what makes you consider them so reliable? Are you saying > they're more reliable than modern x86 hardware? I'm curious as I can > understand many of the motivations for collecting other hardware, but > not x86 PC's. I assume you're not running some bizarre OS, that requires > the hardware, that and interfacing with strange hardware that you need and > won't work with newer systems are about the only reason besides games that > makes sense to me. > > At the same time my own dislike of PC Hardware of that vintage might be > colouring my perception. After all, most of the systems I run don't make > sense to most people. > > Zane > > > > Sorry for such a late reply, but all of my boxen (save a Mac that's in such bad condition it's nothing but a few pieces of metal and the motherboard plus psu which is also dead, could use the mobo for something) are all i386 or better. I would really love to get my hands on a SPARC box, or some money to pay for said box (hell, shipping ain't free). I responded to a email a friend forwarded to me from this list (beforee i subscribed) about some sparcs, but shipping was well over 150 dollars, and that's about all the money i've had for the last 3 years combined (I am rather poor...) No, I do NOT have a job, nor could I pass a piss-test to get one. -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Fri Aug 4 21:03:05 2006 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 21:03:05 -0500 Subject: HP3000/922 attempts at booting...a little further now! In-Reply-To: <01C6B80C.9334B0A0@MAGGIE> References: <01C6B80C.9334B0A0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: Wow! That helped a LOT! I can now get booted, the OS loads and I get to a login prompt. Any pointers on how to proceed at this point? (to get logged on, find out more about how the system is configured etc)? (I have no info on usernames/passwords on this system). thanks! -Bob > >> The system appears to have 2 internal HPIB disks and 2 external >HPIB disks (in a separate rack). There are 2 HPIB boards in the >chassis and 3 HPIB ports at the bottom >of the CPU (below the I/O chassis)...thus I have a potential of 5 >places to connect the external HPIB drives to...I'm not sure where >to plug 'em in. > >>> The system has a default primary boot path of 4.1.0.0.0.0 and a >>>secondary of 4.1.3.0.0.0 > >>> The external drives have ID's of 2 and 4. > > >Hey Bob, > >I don't own a 922, but I do have several 832s. I think they are >fundimentally the same. > >The BOOT PATH "4.1.0.*.*.*.*" indicates that the system is loooking >for a device with address "0" attached to the I/O card "4.1". The >PATH "4.1.3.*.*.*.*" indicates that the system is looking for >adevice with address "3" attached to the I/O card "4.1". > >NOTE: The extra 0's are used to access additional disk partitions or >parameters. Generally they do not need to be specified. The BOOT >PATH could be abbreviated to "4.1.0". > >Since the external devices are addressed as "4" and "2", they were >not used as the PRIMARY or ALTERNATE boot devices. At this point, I >would leave them unconnected. Once you get the system working, you >can go back and attach the devices to see what is on the disks. > >OK... The 3 HPIB connectors below the I/O cage are the connections >to the internal HPIB devices. The system supports up to 4 internal >drives in two chains. So, one HPIB connector goes to each of the two >chains and the other connector goes to the internal TAPE DRIVE. > >The ID plate by the connectors should tell you which connector goes >to each chain. You are looking for the chain labeled "0" and "3". At >this point, I wouldn't worry about the TAPE drive. Get the disks >working first. > >NOTE: When the system boots, the LEDS on the front panel will tell >you how many internal disks there are. If your system has two >drives, one of the internal chains has no devices attached. That's >probably the case. > >The two cards in the I/O card cage are the HPIB I/O cards. I don't >think there was a "standard" installation so, the BOOT disks could >have been attached to either I/O card. I would connect a HPIB cable >from one of the I/O cards to one of the connectors below the cage >and see if it boots. > >NOTE: HPIB devices are generally "noisy" when thay are accessed. >When the computer is talking to a HPIB disk, it's no secret. > >NOTE: Don't change the addresses of the HPIB drives and don't move >the HPIB I/O card in the cage. The OS will not boot if the PATH has >changed. When the OS trys to mount the drives, it will fail because >the PATHS are no longer legit. > >Let me know if this helps. > >See ya, SteveRob -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From segin2005 at gmail.com Fri Aug 4 21:48:11 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 22:48:11 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>>>I perfer to work with older systems (386s are fun!) [...] >>> >>>I am curious as to what is 'fun' about 386s (I assume you mean PC >>>compatibles, and not, for example, Sequent multi-processor machines). >> >>Well, I'm not the person you're responding to, but I have some >>possible suggestions. >> >> >>>So the real low-level hardware/software hackability of these machines >>>would seem to be little different from a more modern PC. >> >>I'm not so sure. >> >>While I've never tried, I'd lay decent odds that it's a good deal >>easier to cobble together a working ISA board than a working PCI board. > > > I'd forgotten that. Yes, an ISA board can be built from junk-box parts in > an hour or so. > > Another thing, it's a lot easier to interface to the parallel, serial or > joystick ports than to Useless Serial Botch. I guess a 386 machine is > very likely to have at least the first 2 of those, modern machines might > well be USB only. > > >>Also, wasn't 386 instruction execution time predictible to the >>clock-cycle level (as opposed to more recent machines with caches and > > > I thought even the 8086 did some pre-fetching of instructions. Which > means even that chip is less predicatable than, say, a Z80. > > >>And, of course, it's entirely possible that 16-year-old happens to be >>emotionally attached to 386s for reasons completely unrelated to their >>technical merits or lack thereof - perhaps there's some cherished game > > > Sure. That's why I'm curious about why he's interested in such machines. > > -tony > I wouldn't say "emotionally attached" myself, since I exibit no emotional response to... well, anything! I like old hardware, mainly cause it's more dependable than today's workstations and desktops. Why? Because companies actually put thought into creating parts that were durable back then. Compare it to cars (my favorite analogy against computers), A 1969 Ford Mustang is usually more durable, dependable, and will survive a crash with substantally less damage than, say, a 2005 Kia Optima or Saab xB. The only reason I show a likeness to a 386 is because the oldest piece of computer hardware I have is a 386. In fact, all of my usable hardware is x86. -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From segin2005 at gmail.com Fri Aug 4 21:54:49 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 22:54:49 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D40879.5050502@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > A point I forgot to mention... > > >>I am a 16 year old high school student who works with computer daily. I >>perfer to work with older systems (386s are fun!) because they are just > > > I am curious as to what is 'fun' about 386s (I assume you mean PC > compatibles, and not, for example, Sequent multi-processor machines). > They're not old enough in general not to use ASICs (or at least the clone > chipsents) on the motherboard. You're not going to get schematics or BIOS > source listings in most cases. So the real low-level hardware/software > hackability of these machines would seem to be little different from a > more modern PC. > > To me, therefore they appear to be just a slower version of said modern > PC. They've got no real advantages that I can spot (unlike, say, one of > my PDP11s, or PERQs, or HPs, where (a) there is low-level documentation, > (b) they are repairable easilty to component level and (c) they run > rather diffeernt software to PCs). Can you enlighten me? > > -tony > My bedroom is about 9' by 12'. I honestly have nowhere to put a PDP-11, which would probably fall through the floor anyways (I live in a trailer). And to note, my entire hardware collection is 32-bit x86, save a busted up Macintosh. My 386 is my oldest machine. And note: If I want to play a video game, I'll do it on my main system. I mean, Doomsday/jDoom is rather nice for DOOM. On a final note: My main desktop run Linux, my other box run Windows 2000 with Microsoft's Interix subsystem installed, and my Dell runs FreeBSD. Don't ask about the 486 or 386, I can't remember. Probably DOS. -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Aug 4 21:52:19 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 21:52:19 -0500 Subject: Not classic, but free: HP-UX (and the B2000) Message-ID: <69da5c69e05f4838a1055a28f299d781@valleyimplants.com> > Is that a new feature? Do you get the Customer ID and Licence Code for >free now? (These are necessary to unlock e.g. the compilers on the >Applications CD) As I said in the first post, I am unsure as to the legality. There does not seem to be any license manager style enforcement in place. I was able to install compilers and SoftBench from the "HP-UX 11i Version 1 Application Software for HP Visualize workstations and HP 9000 Enterprise Servers June 2006 - Software on this disk is unsecured" disk and run SoftBench and a lazy poke at aCC to see if it griped. It didn't. Take that for what it's worth. The CD's were free, after all, and you can always use GCC. At this point, I'm busy wth school and building S/W on my SGIs, so I'm not going to mess with it any more just now. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Aug 4 21:56:33 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 21:56:33 -0500 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) Message-ID: > But, one key difference between the QNX approach and that of >most other current OS's is the microkernel architecture. >Instead of a BIG monolithic kernel with ALL the drivers >installed (or, extra glue for LKM support, etc.), a microkernel >based design treats all of these as components which can be >plugged together. And *talk* to each other (instead of being >invoked "from above"). Yes, you just have the IPC overhead, though. Not sure if it's IPC or cheaper hardware, but large network operations on my Macintosh (System 10) bring the machine much closer to it's knees than any monolithic UNIX or even VMS on a VAX 4000/200. NB - I haven't used the microkernel based Tru64 yet. Microkernels are neat in theory, but a well-trimmed monolithic kernel seems to do pretty well with not too much space. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Fri Aug 4 22:15:18 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:15:18 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> Segin wrote: > I wouldn't say "emotionally attached" myself, since I exibit no > emotional response to... well, anything! I like old hardware, mainly > cause it's more dependable than today's workstations and desktops. Why? > Because companies actually put thought into creating parts that were > durable back then. Compare it to cars (my favorite analogy against > computers), A 1969 Ford Mustang is usually more durable, dependable, and > will survive a crash with substantally less damage than, say, a 2005 Kia > Optima or Saab xB. Sure. But the PASSENGERS will have substantially MORE damage than those in that 2005 vehicle... Don't confuse consumer "peecees" with other modern machines. (what's the MTBF on that 15 year old disk drive from your 386sx??) From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Fri Aug 4 22:24:12 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:24:12 -0700 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D40F5C.4090007@DakotaCom.Net> Scott Quinn wrote: > >> But, one key difference between the QNX approach and that of >> most other current OS's is the microkernel architecture. >> Instead of a BIG monolithic kernel with ALL the drivers >> installed (or, extra glue for LKM support, etc.), a microkernel >> based design treats all of these as components which can be >> plugged together. And *talk* to each other (instead of being >> invoked "from above"). > > Yes, you just have the IPC overhead, though. > Not sure if it's IPC or cheaper hardware, but large network operations on my Macintosh (System 10) bring the machine > much closer to it's knees than any monolithic UNIX or even VMS on a VAX 4000/200. NB - I haven't used the microkernel > based Tru64 yet. > > Microkernels are neat in theory, but a well-trimmed monolithic kernel seems to do pretty well with not too much space. I think the "problem" with the microkernel approach is trying to compare apples and oranges. Getting a conventional UN*X running on a microkernel architecture and trying to have that compete *performance wise* with a monolithic kernel that has been tweaked for MANY years is a no-win position. The appeal of the microkernel approach is getting multiple OS's to coexist on the same box (at the same time!) as well as a cleaner conceptual design. It also lends itself more cleanly to distributed systems (which are difficult to implement using traditional monolithic kernels which must make all the communications very *visible* -- vs. their implicit roles in microkernel approaches) From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 4 22:58:35 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 20:58:35 -0700 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:56 PM -0500 8/4/06, Scott Quinn wrote: >Yes, you just have the IPC overhead, though. >Not sure if it's IPC or cheaper hardware, but large network >operations on my Macintosh (System 10) bring the machine >much closer to it's knees than any monolithic UNIX or even VMS on a >VAX 4000/200. NB - I haven't used the microkernel >based Tru64 yet. > >Microkernels are neat in theory, but a well-trimmed monolithic >kernel seems to do pretty well with not too much space. Don't get me started... I just want to say one thing. Compare performance on *ANY* Mac running Mac OS X to something like an SGI o2 running IRIX. Sure, any current Mac will win on raw horsepower, but put both systems under a heavy load, and I think you'll find even the most pathetic of o2's will win. I'm still not convinced Mac OS X is that big of an improvement over my Mac OS 9 system. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Aug 4 23:15:06 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 21:15:06 -0700 Subject: M9058 In-Reply-To: <200608041413.k74EDhtp027074@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200608041413.k74EDhtp027074@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <44D41B4A.40204@shiresoft.com> I have one. $25 + shipping and it's yours. Contact me off list. Dennis Boone wrote: > Anyone know the going price for DEC M9058 (dist board for RQDX3) > boards these days? > > Thanks, > > De > > > -- TTFN - Guy From segin2005 at gmail.com Sat Aug 5 00:41:22 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 01:41:22 -0400 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm still not convinced Mac OS X is that big of an improvement over my > Mac OS 9 system. > > Zane > Mac OS 9 is very similar to Windows 3.1 -- no memory protection, co-operative multitasking, limited file structures, poor networking, one-app's-bug-brings-it-all-down, etc. Mac OS X is a fork of FreeBSD, a modern UNIX with hardware memory management and protection, preemptive multitasking, complex file systems and structures, a roburst netowkring API (BSD sockets), etc. So you are saying that FreeBSD isn't much of an improvement over Windows 3.1? In terms of function and design, that is. -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 5 00:48:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 22:48:26 -0700 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608042248260855.0316ED3D@10.0.0.252> On 8/5/2006 at 1:41 AM Segin wrote: >Mac OS 9 is very similar to Windows 3.1 -- no memory protection, >co-operative multitasking, limited file structures, poor networking, >one-app's-bug-brings-it-all-down, etc. The big difference is that OS 9 is a real operating system. Win3.1 is basically a DPMI server with a bunch of APIs to implement windowing. Under the hood, it's still MS-DOS. One boots OS 9, but not Win 3.1 (or WIn9x for that matter)--one boots DOS. And WIn 3.1 does have memory protection; it's just not very good. Cheers, Chuck From segin2005 at gmail.com Sat Aug 5 00:54:40 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 01:54:40 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44D432A0.40401@gmail.com> Don Y wrote: > Segin wrote: > >> I wouldn't say "emotionally attached" myself, since I exibit no >> emotional response to... well, anything! I like old hardware, mainly >> cause it's more dependable than today's workstations and desktops. >> Why? Because companies actually put thought into creating parts that >> were durable back then. Compare it to cars (my favorite analogy >> against computers), A 1969 Ford Mustang is usually more durable, >> dependable, and will survive a crash with substantally less damage >> than, say, a 2005 Kia Optima or Saab xB. > > > Sure. But the PASSENGERS will have substantially MORE damage than > those in that 2005 vehicle... They're only humans. We got 6 and a half billion on this planet, losing one or two doesn't really make a difference. > Don't confuse consumer "peecees" with other modern machines. > (what's the MTBF on that 15 year old disk drive from your 386sx??) Dunno. Good guess would be about 9 years, or 85,000 hours. But that's if it's in constant use. This box was found at a old job site. I remember booting it once, only to find it still has NetWare/DOS and Windows 3.11 installed, so I am assuming that it sat around in a corner, doing absolutely nothing for about 11 years. And yes, I know what a MTBF is. It's Mean Time Before Failure. And no, I didn't need to use Google to find that out. Please stop trying to belittle me, I get enough of it from the local LUG. If I wanted to be trolled, I'd go post on USENET. -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From segin2005 at gmail.com Sat Aug 5 00:57:53 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 01:57:53 -0400 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <200608042248260855.0316ED3D@10.0.0.252> References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <200608042248260855.0316ED3D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D43361.4040009@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/5/2006 at 1:41 AM Segin wrote: > > >>Mac OS 9 is very similar to Windows 3.1 -- no memory protection, >>co-operative multitasking, limited file structures, poor networking, >>one-app's-bug-brings-it-all-down, etc. > > > The big difference is that OS 9 is a real operating system. Win3.1 is > basically a DPMI server with a bunch of APIs to implement windowing. Under > the hood, it's still MS-DOS. One boots OS 9, but not Win 3.1 (or WIn9x for > that matter)--one boots DOS. I know this. I was trying to make a comparasion with the first thing that came to mind. If you can think of something better to compare Mac OS 9 to, I'll be glad to hear it. > And WIn 3.1 does have memory protection; it's just not very good. Not in Standard (286) mode. > Cheers, > Chuck The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From segin2005 at gmail.com Sat Aug 5 01:04:39 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 02:04:39 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608040803.JAA24367@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200608040803.JAA24367@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <44D434F7.4030705@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis said: > Maybe, but Linux doesn't have anything like the old QNX demo--an OS and > browser that boots from a single 1.44MB floppy: Ever heard of 1diskx? It's a web browser and X11 (with slightly better NIC support than he QNX disk) that boots on anything as little as my 386sx/20 with 6MB of RAM (this includes X loading as well) If you dont belive me, send me a pack of AAA batteries and a known-good floppy so I can use my (rather crappy) digital camera... The floppy is for 1diskx. You think I'm talking out my ass? I'm serious! -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Aug 5 00:59:31 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 22:59:31 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D432A0.40401@gmail.com> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D432A0.40401@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44D433C3.90106@DakotaCom.Net> Segin wrote: > Don Y wrote: >> Segin wrote: >> >>> I wouldn't say "emotionally attached" myself, since I exibit no >>> emotional response to... well, anything! I like old hardware, mainly >>> cause it's more dependable than today's workstations and desktops. >>> Why? Because companies actually put thought into creating parts that >>> were durable back then. Compare it to cars (my favorite analogy >>> against computers), A 1969 Ford Mustang is usually more durable, >>> dependable, and will survive a crash with substantally less damage >>> than, say, a 2005 Kia Optima or Saab xB. >> >> Sure. But the PASSENGERS will have substantially MORE damage than >> those in that 2005 vehicle... > They're only humans. We got 6 and a half billion on this planet, losing > one or two doesn't really make a difference. And how many *computers* do we have? Losing one or two doesn't really make a difference... :> >> Don't confuse consumer "peecees" with other modern machines. >> (what's the MTBF on that 15 year old disk drive from your 386sx??) > Dunno. Good guess would be about 9 years, or 85,000 hours. > > But that's if it's in constant use. This box was found at a old job > site. I remember booting it once, only to find it still has NetWare/DOS > and Windows 3.11 installed, so I am assuming that it sat around in a > corner, doing absolutely nothing for about 11 years. And a modern drive has an MTBF of, what, 500,000 to 1,000,000 hours?! :> > And yes, I know what a MTBF is. It's Mean Time Before Failure. And no, I > didn't need to use Google to find that out. Actually, it's *Between* failures. > Please stop trying to belittle me, I get enough of it from the local > LUG. If I wanted to be trolled, I'd go post on USENET. *I'm* not trying to "belittle" you. I'm just pointing out the holes in your argument. If you chose to dismiss them with flippant "one or two doesn't make a difference" comments, then I guess you don't particularly care about your own claims? Seems like you're the one doing the trolling... :> From segin2005 at gmail.com Sat Aug 5 01:11:47 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 02:11:47 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608030940270465.509BAFDC@10.0.0.252> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <200608031211.28951.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608030940270465.509BAFDC@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D436A3.6010409@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/3/2006 at 12:11 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > >>A floppy driver? Why? This isn't making sense to me at the moment (gotta >>go get that second cup of coffee I guess...) > > > 'Cause the OS says you have to. There was a huge grumble of displeasure in > the NT community after MS assured developers that NT 4.0 kernel-mode > drivers would work just fine with 2K. And they did--until RC1, when, just > a month or two before official launch, you discovered that you had to > implement the complete litany of power management services or you'd get a > BSOD. > > I haven't even looked at Vista requirements yet--and probably won't until > Vista's released because MS is making the same claim "You can use XP > drivers on Vista". Sometimes, it seems to me that OS software at Microsoft > is created as a sort of involuntary spasm. > > But as to why software is buggy and complex, consider ACPI. One of the > densest, most incomprehensible, violated-in-practice "standards" that > exists on the face of the planet. Or, consider the way the already-complex > USB standard has "bloomed" since 1.0. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > The ACPI "implementation" on my machine is either physically damaged, or so fucking broken that there is not a single OS in existence that can use it. Good job HP, for making my system break with just about every bootable CD unless I bend over ass-backards with a 5-mile long bootloader command which breaks what little that does run. By the way, if anyone's intrested, the system is a Pavilion a414x. -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Aug 5 01:08:57 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 23:08:57 -0700 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D435F9.1020004@DakotaCom.Net> Scott Quinn wrote: > >> But, one key difference between the QNX approach and that of >> most other current OS's is the microkernel architecture. >> Instead of a BIG monolithic kernel with ALL the drivers >> installed (or, extra glue for LKM support, etc.), a microkernel >> based design treats all of these as components which can be >> plugged together. And *talk* to each other (instead of being >> invoked "from above"). > > Yes, you just have the IPC overhead, though. > Not sure if it's IPC or cheaper hardware, but large network operations on my Macintosh (System 10) bring the machine > much closer to it's knees than any monolithic UNIX or even VMS on a VAX 4000/200. NB - I haven't used the microkernel > based Tru64 yet. > > Microkernels are neat in theory, but a well-trimmed monolithic kernel seems to do pretty well with not too much space. Speaking of which (and becoming more "on topic"), does (did?) anyone have any first-hand experience with COOL? Do any archives survive (or was it all "proprietary"?). From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Aug 5 01:16:28 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 23:16:28 -0700 Subject: MO support Message-ID: <44D437BC.50205@DakotaCom.Net> *Aside from Linux*, are there any OS's with suport for MO drives with > 512B sectors? I know older Macs would support some of the PMO drives but I think that required some third party support... Unfortunately (?) W2K seems to be the only practical option I've found :-( From segin2005 at gmail.com Sat Aug 5 01:22:28 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 02:22:28 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <005701c6b759$9fadd5e0$04fea8c0@alpha> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org><200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <44D224F8.1070005@yahoo.co.uk> <005701c6b759$9fadd5e0$04fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <44D43924.7030501@gmail.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: >>Printers are a case in point too - a parallel port does that job just > > fine, > >>yet it's hard to find a machine that doesn't have more complicated USB >>interfaces on it, and a printer's now expected to use that. > > > The problem is the legacy - in order of building smaller PCs, people > should get rid of the (big and clunky) parallel port. Imagine a pc where > everything - printer, keyboard, mouse, pen-drive - is USB. You'll have to > have a power supply, a video and a USB connector, all peripherals can be > connected thru USB, and many of them (as a keyboard - dunno why it doesn't > happens today) becoming a USB hub. Some first-generation iMac keyboards (the ones that had their own cord builtin, more specifically than the ones that needed an extra cord) dis this exact thing. I remember setting up some iMacs at school one day, and remember having to plugin a USB floppy drive into the USB port 1 of the keyboard, and the mouse in USB port 2 (some didn't have a floppy drive cause the keyboard was the ones that needed a extra USB cable for the keyboard itself, consuming a USB port just to function). Why? They were using the second USB port on the system for either a printer or other USB device, for example, this touchpad that was bigger than the computer+keyboard+mouse (a good 30 inches, in fact). A few had USB ethernet dongles to replace the fried onboard ethernet (it's a public school, any mention of a "surge protector" or any other device it would be logical to use gets KIGO'd. Eh, I guess that's what our tax dollars are going for -- and horrible cafeteria food.) -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From segin2005 at gmail.com Sat Aug 5 01:22:28 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 02:22:28 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <005701c6b759$9fadd5e0$04fea8c0@alpha> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org><200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <44D224F8.1070005@yahoo.co.uk> <005701c6b759$9fadd5e0$04fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <44D43924.7030501@gmail.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: >>Printers are a case in point too - a parallel port does that job just > > fine, > >>yet it's hard to find a machine that doesn't have more complicated USB >>interfaces on it, and a printer's now expected to use that. > > > The problem is the legacy - in order of building smaller PCs, people > should get rid of the (big and clunky) parallel port. Imagine a pc where > everything - printer, keyboard, mouse, pen-drive - is USB. You'll have to > have a power supply, a video and a USB connector, all peripherals can be > connected thru USB, and many of them (as a keyboard - dunno why it doesn't > happens today) becoming a USB hub. Some first-generation iMac keyboards (the ones that had their own cord builtin, more specifically than the ones that needed an extra cord) dis this exact thing. I remember setting up some iMacs at school one day, and remember having to plugin a USB floppy drive into the USB port 1 of the keyboard, and the mouse in USB port 2 (some didn't have a floppy drive cause the keyboard was the ones that needed a extra USB cable for the keyboard itself, consuming a USB port just to function). Why? They were using the second USB port on the system for either a printer or other USB device, for example, this touchpad that was bigger than the computer+keyboard+mouse (a good 30 inches, in fact). A few had USB ethernet dongles to replace the fried onboard ethernet (it's a public school, any mention of a "surge protector" or any other device it would be logical to use gets KIGO'd. Eh, I guess that's what our tax dollars are going for -- and horrible cafeteria food.) -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 5 01:19:47 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 23:19:47 -0700 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <44D43361.4040009@gmail.com> References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <200608042248260855.0316ED3D@10.0.0.252> <44D43361.4040009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608042319470645.03339FC7@10.0.0.252> On 8/5/2006 at 1:57 AM Segin wrote: >> And WIn 3.1 does have memory protection; it's just not very good. > >Not in Standard (286) mode. Are you sure you're not thinking of Win 3.0 Real mode? 3.1 286p (standard) mode does have protection and it's pretty easy to generate type 12 and 13 faults (STKFAULT, GPFAULT). OTOH, nothing faults in real mode--because there's no protection. How about comparing OS 9 to Windows 2.0 or Topview? Cheeers, Chuck From segin2005 at gmail.com Sat Aug 5 01:28:17 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 02:28:17 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D2CE89.8050906@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <200608021750210268.4D35DA34@10.0.0.252> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <004801c6b759$060f34b0$04fea8c0@alpha> <200608031738430757.52518C36@10.0.0.252> <44D2CE89.8050906@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44D43A81.5050002@gmail.com> Don Y wrote: > Alexey Toptygin wrote: > >> On Thu, 3 Aug 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> Maybe, but Linux doesn't have anything like the old QNX demo--an OS and >>> browser that boots from a single 1.44MB floppy: >>> >>> http://toastytech.com/guis/qnxdemo.html >>> >>> Even back then, it impressed the heck out of me. >> >> >> They could only get away with that because of the supported hardware: >> >> Hardware requirements: >> >> * 386 or better. >> * 8 megs of ram. >> * Hardware / RS232 modem (not a winmodem) or NE1000/2000, DEC 21x4x, >> or 3com 509 based network card. >> * Serial or PS/2 mouse. >> * VGA or Vesa 2.0 compatible card. >> * No hard disk needed >> >> That must be the simplest set of x86 hardware that you can write a >> networked, protected VM OS on; all long-lived, well-defined >> interfaces, and only one set. No disk drivers even :-) Could you fit >> into such a small footprint with their stock kernel? I doubt it; I >> think this was a special build. > > > Yes and no. > > Of course it is a special build. Just like bootable *BSD floppies > "crunch" the core utilities into a single executable image > (with multiple entry points) instead of separate binaries. Not exactly multiple entry points, but a main() that just parsed argv[0] and a shitload of hard links or symbolic links. > But, one key difference between the QNX approach and that of > most other current OS's is the microkernel architecture. > Instead of a BIG monolithic kernel with ALL the drivers > installed (or, extra glue for LKM support, etc.), a microkernel > based design treats all of these as components which can be > plugged together. And *talk* to each other (instead of being > invoked "from above"). > > I suspect that they could REPLACE the support for NE1000 cards > with some OTHER card and not change the overall footprint > by much. And, *possibly* not even have to relink (!?). Minix 3 comes to mind on this. > Even Mach -- probably the most bloated microkernel -- would > fit into a 1MB footprint. OTOH, how big is the latest > Linux Kernel? The NetBSD kernel that I run is almost 3M... > and I've trimmed out much of the support for devices that > aren't present in my machine! > >> Then there's their entirely in-house userland. Could you fit a variety >> of things written by different groups? Again, I doubt it; code would >> be duplicated, and it would be hard to remove everything non-essential >> without removing something essential attached to it. That's when you make like Busybox, combine all utilities into one program, and have main() call out each 'program' subroutine based on the string pointed by by argv[0]. > > QNX doesn't try to be a desktop OS. Just like Linux doesn't > claim to be MacOS. > >> I don't hate QNX, but for some reason this demo has always irked me; I >> don't feel it's fair to compare a nifty trick to a complete minimal > > > I dont see it as a nifty trick. You want "tricks"? Look at > PIC-based web servers :> Gives new meaning to the term > "truth in advertising" :-( > >> system. If you want to do something practical on x86, you'll need a >> lot more than one floppy. Today's debian installer needs 2 1.44 >> floppies of drivers on top of the most common ones built into the >> kernel (which lives on its own 1.44 floppy). > > > But that's a consequence of the way that *they* decided to support > the hardware that *they* chose to support! Do they support > Mitsumi CD-ROM's? Adaptec 1542's? ATM / SONET? > > Gee, there's another OS that tres to do all of those things. > I think it's made by MS... :> I think that's why some people that use that OS act like jerks -- they're fustrated at their machines :> > A single floppy is a *lot* of code. You can *do* a lot with > that much code (since it only needs to reflect the size of > the TEXT segent, more or less, and could conceivably be a > compressed executable). Look at what most cell phones do > nowadays... > > If you want to burden the implementation with "this has to > run on ANY conceivable x86 machine built since 1980", then > you're imposing a lot on the design. How many Linux kernels > will boot on a 4MB machine? What about a *1* MB machine?? What about ELKS? > > No, I'm not a fan of QNX (their licensing doesn't justify > the value they add). But, I think this is a reasonable > marketing ploy -- especially to a market (embedded systems) > where an 8MB machine is considered "resource RICH"! > Agreed. -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From segin2005 at gmail.com Sat Aug 5 01:30:45 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 02:30:45 -0400 Subject: MO support In-Reply-To: <44D437BC.50205@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44D437BC.50205@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44D43B15.7080803@gmail.com> Don Y wrote: > *Aside from Linux*, are there any OS's with suport > for MO drives with > 512B sectors? I know older Macs > would support some of the PMO drives but I think that > required some third party support... > > Unfortunately (?) W2K seems to be the only practical > option I've found :-( > Some Japanese 3.5" floppies were 1.25MB and used 1024byte sectors, IIRC. I first learned about it from a BIOS setting. Weird, eh? -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From segin2005 at gmail.com Sat Aug 5 01:31:10 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 02:31:10 -0400 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <200608042319470645.03339FC7@10.0.0.252> References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <200608042248260855.0316ED3D@10.0.0.252> <44D43361.4040009@gmail.com> <200608042319470645.03339FC7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D43B2E.7060104@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/5/2006 at 1:57 AM Segin wrote: > > >>>And WIn 3.1 does have memory protection; it's just not very good. >> >>Not in Standard (286) mode. > > > Are you sure you're not thinking of Win 3.0 Real mode? 3.1 286p (standard) > mode does have protection and it's pretty easy to generate type 12 and 13 > faults (STKFAULT, GPFAULT). OTOH, nothing faults in real mode--because > there's no protection. > > How about comparing OS 9 to Windows 2.0 or Topview? > > Cheeers, > Chuck > > > Surely :P -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 5 01:28:04 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 23:28:04 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D434F7.4030705@gmail.com> References: <200608040803.JAA24367@citadel.metropolis.local> <44D434F7.4030705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608042328040179.033B3349@10.0.0.252> On 8/5/2006 at 2:04 AM Segin wrote: >If you dont belive me, send me a pack of AAA batteries and a known-good >floppy so I can use my (rather crappy) digital camera... The floppy is >for 1diskx. > >You think I'm talking out my ass? I'm serious! Well, I think you're trying to cage some batteries from me. I know the web site on freshmeat: http://freshmeat.net/projects/natld/?branch_id=37256 But it's not the only one (there's the now-dead FreeBSD Pico). Regardless, QNX was first and it was a very slick trick. Cheers, Chuck From segin2005 at gmail.com Sat Aug 5 01:34:38 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 02:34:38 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D433C3.90106@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D432A0.40401@gmail.com> <44D433C3.90106@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44D43BFE.90704@gmail.com> Don Y wrote: OK, you do seem to have a valid argument there, but like I've recently said, the oldest machine I have is a 386. Well, I've owned a Mac Plus 1MB and a Mac SE/30 before, but they got dumpstered after stuff started falling apart. Literally. I opened up the Plus only to find that the CPU has literally *disintegrated*. A lot of the capacitors and resistors were lying on the mobo cause their sodder has worn away... It's almost like it was sent to the past from 2000 years in the future. Freaky, eh? -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 5 01:30:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 23:30:19 -0700 Subject: MO support In-Reply-To: <44D437BC.50205@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44D437BC.50205@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200608042330190539.033D4404@10.0.0.252> On 8/4/2006 at 11:16 PM Don Y wrote: >Unfortunately (?) W2K seems to be the only practical >option I've found :-( Hmmm, I used (about 5 years ago) a Pinnacle Apex with 1024 byte sectors on (gasp) MS-DOS with no problem. Just takes the right device driver. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 5 01:32:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 23:32:32 -0700 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608042332320405.033F4B01@10.0.0.252> On 8/4/2006 at 9:56 PM Scott Quinn wrote: >Microkernels are neat in theory, but a well-trimmed monolithic kernel seems to do pretty well with not From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 5 01:34:27 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 23:34:27 -0700 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608042334270615.03410D07@10.0.0.252> On 8/4/2006 at 9:56 PM Scott Quinn wrote: >Microkernels are neat in theory, but a well-trimmed monolithic kernel seems to do pretty well with not too much space. Let me try that again. NT 3.51 and earlier had the video drivers outside of kernel mode. When 4.0 brought them in as kernel mode, things got quite a bit faster. Cheers, Chuck From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Aug 5 01:35:18 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 23:35:18 -0700 Subject: MO support In-Reply-To: <200608042330190539.033D4404@10.0.0.252> References: <44D437BC.50205@DakotaCom.Net> <200608042330190539.033D4404@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D43C26.80203@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/4/2006 at 11:16 PM Don Y wrote: > >> Unfortunately (?) W2K seems to be the only practical >> option I've found :-( > > Hmmm, I used (about 5 years ago) a Pinnacle Apex with 1024 byte sectors on > (gasp) MS-DOS with no problem. Just takes the right device driver. Yes, but that's yet another MS OS. :-( I would prefer support on one of the *BSD but I don't think it's there, yet (?). Or, barring that, Solaris. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 5 01:41:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 23:41:52 -0700 Subject: MO support In-Reply-To: <44D43B15.7080803@gmail.com> References: <44D437BC.50205@DakotaCom.Net> <44D43B15.7080803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608042341520823.0347D80D@10.0.0.252> On 8/5/2006 at 2:30 AM Segin wrote: >Some Japanese 3.5" floppies were 1.25MB and used 1024byte sectors, IIRC. >I first learned about it from a BIOS setting. Weird, eh? Not at all weird. It all goes back to NEC and the 9800 series of PCs. They started with 8" drives, moved to 5.25" and then to 3.5". In all cases, the format (and rotational speed) didn't change. All are 360 RPM, MFM HD on 77 tracks. That's why, for instance, 1.2MB 5.25" drives usually (unless jumpered for dual-speed operation) spin at 360 RPM and not 300. Makes a lot of sense--moreso than the bizarre litany of DOS formats. Cheers, Chuck From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Aug 5 01:43:59 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 23:43:59 -0700 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <200608042334270615.03410D07@10.0.0.252> References: <200608042334270615.03410D07@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D43E2F.8060107@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/4/2006 at 9:56 PM Scott Quinn wrote: > >> Microkernels are neat in theory, but a well-trimmed monolithic kernel > seems to do pretty well with not too much space. > > Let me try that again. NT 3.51 and earlier had the video drivers outside > of kernel mode. When 4.0 brought them in as kernel mode, things got quite > a bit faster. Of course! Each time you have to cross a protection domain you take a performance hit. There's no free lunch. OTOH, drivers in (the equivalent of) "userland" don't crash the *system* when they are poorly written! I really like the microkernel approach for embedded systems. It just makes things so much more robust (I'll gladly trade some percentage of the CPU for that overhead and live without "crumpled paper flying to trash cans" :> ). And it makes things so much easier to "load balance" in a multiprocessor design since you just move the thread to a different processor and let the magic do its thing (at a nontrivial cost, unfortunately). From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 5 01:46:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 23:46:50 -0700 Subject: MO support In-Reply-To: <44D43C26.80203@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44D437BC.50205@DakotaCom.Net> <200608042330190539.033D4404@10.0.0.252> <44D43C26.80203@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200608042346500653.034C6367@10.0.0.252> On 8/4/2006 at 11:35 PM Don Y wrote: >Yes, but that's yet another MS OS. :-( I would prefer >support on one of the *BSD but I don't think it's there, yet (?). >Or, barring that, Solaris. Wonder if one could "layer" in a driver to block/deblock from/to 512 byte sectors without breaking things. Surely seems possible. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 5 06:05:44 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 07:05:44 -0400 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44D47B88.8040909@neurotica.com> Segin wrote: > Mac OS 9 is very similar to Windows 3.1 -- no memory protection, > co-operative multitasking, limited file structures, poor networking, > one-app's-bug-brings-it-all-down, etc. Yes. MacOS "Classic" needs to die, die, die. > Mac OS X is a fork of FreeBSD, a modern UNIX with hardware memory > management and protection, preemptive multitasking, complex file systems > and structures, a roburst netowkring API (BSD sockets), etc. Umm...excuse me, but MacOS X is *not* a "fork of FreeBSD". It is based on the Mach microkernel, with big chunks of FreeBSD layered on top of that (system libraries and networking), with a healthy amount of NetBSD (userland programs) thrown in for spice. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From steerex at mindspring.com Sat Aug 5 06:59:38 2006 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 07:59:38 -0400 Subject: HP3000/922 attempts at booting...a little further now! Message-ID: <01C6B865.1AA70940@MAGGIE> Bob, Great... When the system is booted in "Single User Mode", you will automatically be logged in as "root". Then you can change the "root" password, restart the system, then and login with full access to everything. The boot process involves three steps. 1.) The "Processor Dependent Code" (BOOT ROM) is run. This is the BOOT ROM on the CPU card. 2.) The PDC reads the PATH from memory and loads the "Initial System Loader" or "ISL" from the disk. 3.) The ISL loads the OS from disk. ------- So... Reboot the system and when given the opportunity "Press Any Key within 10 Seconds.. Blah... Blah... Blah". This interrupts the boot process and allows you to step though it passing parameters as needed. Next, you'll enter the "BOOT PATH" manually. IE "BOOT 4.1.0". When you enter the PATH, the system should prompt "Interact with ISL (Y or N)?". Enter "Y". The system will now read the ISL from the disk and return a prompt to the operator. At the "ISL>" prompt, enter "hpux -is". This will boot the system into single user mode and automatically log you in as "root". ------- When your in the system, you can change the root password: "passwd root" Just reboot he system "shutdown -r now" and let it follow the normal boot process. ---------- From: Bob Brown Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 10:03 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; HP3000-L at RAVEN.UTC.EDU Subject: RE: HP3000/922 attempts at booting...a little further now! Wow! That helped a LOT! I can now get booted, the OS loads and I get to a login prompt. Any pointers on how to proceed at this point? (to get logged on, find out more about how the system is configured etc)? (I have no info on usernames/passwords on this system). thanks! -Bob From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Aug 5 07:57:55 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 06:57:55 -0600 Subject: MO support In-Reply-To: <44D43C26.80203@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44D437BC.50205@DakotaCom.Net> <200608042330190539.033D4404@10.0.0.252> <44D43C26.80203@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44D495D3.7030609@e-bbes.com> Don Y wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 8/4/2006 at 11:16 PM Don Y wrote: >> > > Yes, but that's yet another MS OS. :-( I would prefer > support on one of the *BSD but I don't think it's there, yet (?). > Or, barring that, Solaris. Did you actually try ? I think I used my 2048 bytes MO os either NetBSD or FreeBSD ... cheers From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Aug 5 09:30:27 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 09:30:27 -0500 Subject: Microkernels (WAS Re: New to the list) Message-ID: <16c3fd0fca3740f08f8251f0b1f99d59@valleyimplants.com> The reason I brought up System 10 is that it is the "best" microkernel implementation I have at this point (the other one is a OPENSTEP box, substatntially older). Current Macs share much more with PeeCees than SGI IRISes and Sun SPARCs, so there is most likely a non-insignificant amount of suboptimal hardware that eats processor cycles like a cow eats grass to do things that a better arch. hands off and is done with. I was hoping a OSF/1-DUNIX-Tru64 user would pop in a bit more about that platform (hoping to pick up most of a AS4100 to try it out on soon). It uses the OSF/1 Mach-based system but on well-designed few-compromises hardware. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Aug 5 09:36:34 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 09:36:34 -0500 Subject: HP3000/922 attemts at booting...a little farther now Message-ID: <20aee79c894442a7a9558ac8195ea358@valleyimplants.com> >At the "ISL>" prompt, enter "hpux -is". This will boot the system into single user mode and automatically log you in as "root". > >------- > >When your in the system, you can change the root password: > >"passwd root" > >Just reboot he system "shutdown -r now" and let it follow the normal boot process. So is MPE that similar to HP-UX? I thought it would be something semi-bizarre so I didn't pursue it at all (also the difficulty of finding a 3k and MPE media). Had it slotted in with OS/400 in the "things that will be a huge headache and very expensive, so don't bother" class... From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Sat Aug 5 09:53:17 2006 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 09:53:17 -0500 Subject: HP3000/922 attemts at booting...a little farther now In-Reply-To: <20aee79c894442a7a9558ac8195ea358@valleyimplants.com> References: <20aee79c894442a7a9558ac8195ea358@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: MPE is very different from hpux. (you don't start it with "hpux -is", you start it with "start" etc). usernames and security is also very different. It is a diffferent beast entirely. (but really fascinating and one of the best and most secure O/S's ever made (up there with VMS and IBM's VM/VSE/MVS/OS390/ZOS.) -Bob > >At the "ISL>" prompt, enter "hpux -is". This will boot the system >into single user mode and automatically log you in as "root". >> >>------- >> >>When your in the system, you can change the root password: >> >>"passwd root" >> >>Just reboot he system "shutdown -r now" and let it follow the >>normal boot process. > >So is MPE that similar to HP-UX? I thought it would be something >semi-bizarre so I didn't pursue it at all (also the difficulty of >finding a 3k and MPE media). >Had it slotted in with OS/400 in the "things that will be a huge >headache and very expensive, so don't bother" class... -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From ray at arachelian.com Sat Aug 5 10:59:47 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 11:59:47 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> Don Y wrote: > Don't confuse consumer "peecees" with other modern machines. > (what's the MTBF on that 15 year old disk drive from your 386sx??) Depends on the drive. I've had modern 80GB, and 160GB drives die on me after only about a year of use (funny how they go just past the warranty!). These were well taken care of drives. Meanwhile I have several 5MB 5.25" full height Seagate drives for my Lisa that are nearly 25 years old - and they still work, though they sound like jet engines when I turn them on. The real problem with ancient x86 hardware is cost per watt. I don't mean the CPU, I mean the entire machine. A modern machine runs a lot more efficiently than an old 386, even though Intel CPU's were until recently notorious for consuming lots of power. There are very few things I can't do with a modern machine that I could do with an old 486 or 386 - even if it has to be inside a VM or emulator. That said, until very recently, I used a Pentium I 100Mhz with 64M of RAM as a router. Ran beautifully, and it served better as a router than taking up space in a junk yard. I replaced this with another aging machine - a PIII running at 500Mhz, which only uses 100Watts more - but I can certainly get a lot more out of it. So that old machine certainly cost me more to run than the new one in terms of performance for electricity used. I certainly don't need a 2Ghz AMD64 with 4GB of RAM for use as a router. Today. In 5 years from now, my desktop will be very likely be my router. I tend to look at the early machines as a Cambrian explosion. We saw a ton of different kinds of machines, each unique in its own way. The market made them extinct, so now we have only several handfuls of kinds of machines. But, those old ancient beasties were wonderful in their own ways. A 286, or 386 being the ancestor of modern common PC's makes it uninteresting - but only because of how common they were. A few of the ancient x86 line have some historical value. The 1st IBM PC, the Jr, the 1st laptops, the 1st portable PC, and so on are collectibles because they are the 1st of something. But a generic white box 386, meh. From curt at resalehost.networksolutions.com Sat Aug 5 10:41:33 2006 From: curt at resalehost.networksolutions.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 11:41:33 -0400 Subject: In Zip 10512 - Free for Pickup... In-Reply-To: <44D436A3.6010409@gmail.com> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <200608031211.28951.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608030940270465.509BAFDC@10.0.0.252> <44D436A3.6010409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44D4BC2D.80800@atarimuseum.com> Free for Pickup, Anyone around Putnam, NY - ZIP Code 10512 : Procom Systems CD Plus "Cube" 24" x 24" x 24" cube on 4 casters Has 2 independent PC power supplies SCSI 1 connectors on the rear 14 1/2 height bays, current 5 filled with 5 24x SCSI CD-ROM drives 2 Procom Systems caching modules are installed. Side panels are removable. Front has nice smoked plexiglass door that swings open. Unit is a good 60-70lbs, so I don't want to pack and ship it. I was using it at a storage and tape drive unit connected to a dedicated PC Linux box sitting ontop of it with drive shares, this is a great box with a lot of potential for just about any PC or Mini application. Please pick up before next Sunday 8/13/06 otherwise it goes out to the curb for sanitation pickup. contact me off-list please - curt (AT) atarimuseum (DOT) com Curt From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 5 12:12:20 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 10:12:20 -0700 Subject: Microkernels (WAS Re: New to the list) Message-ID: > Current Macs share much more with PeeCees > than SGI IRISes and Sun SPARCs, so there is most likely a non-insignificant amount of suboptimal hardware that eats processor cycles Please give concrete examples of this "suboptimal hardware" you speculate about, and give examples of how this is done better on SGI or Sun DESKTOP CLASS Hardware. From segin2005 at gmail.com Sat Aug 5 12:17:26 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 13:17:26 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44D4D2A6.1010007@gmail.com> Ray Arachelian wrote: > A few of the ancient x86 line have some historical value. The 1st IBM > PC, the Jr, the 1st laptops, the 1st portable PC, and so on are > collectibles because they are the 1st of something. But a generic white > box 386, meh. > > That's true, but you gotta play with the cards dealt to you. That is, I don't have a SPARC or a old Sun 3 or a VAX, or even something exotic such as a IBM z/390, or something big that would fall right through my floor like a PDP-11 (which I'd love to have, just to run 2.10BSD) -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Aug 5 12:14:54 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 10:14:54 -0700 Subject: MO support In-Reply-To: <44D495D3.7030609@e-bbes.com> References: <44D437BC.50205@DakotaCom.Net> <200608042330190539.033D4404@10.0.0.252> <44D43C26.80203@DakotaCom.Net> <44D495D3.7030609@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <44D4D20E.8040507@DakotaCom.Net> e.stiebler wrote: > Don Y wrote: >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> On 8/4/2006 at 11:16 PM Don Y wrote: >>> >> >> Yes, but that's yet another MS OS. :-( I would prefer >> support on one of the *BSD but I don't think it's there, yet (?). >> Or, barring that, Solaris. > > Did you actually try ? Tried it on Solaris (6 & 8), NetBSD (2.something), didn't bother with OpenBSD because it's almost in lock step with NetBSD on features, tried DG/UX (4.20), tried an old SCO OpenServer (ha!), etc. "Trying" takes a lot of time. I'm hoping someone *knows*... :> > I think I used my 2048 bytes MO os either NetBSD or FreeBSD ... > cheers > From segin2005 at gmail.com Sat Aug 5 12:22:48 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 13:22:48 -0400 Subject: VAXen RULE! (WAS Microkernels) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D4D3E8.802@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: >>Current Macs share much more with PeeCees >>than SGI IRISes and Sun SPARCs, so there is most likely a non-insignificant > > amount of suboptimal hardware that eats processor cycles > > Please give concrete examples of this "suboptimal hardware" you speculate > about, and give examples of how this is done better on SGI or Sun DESKTOP > CLASS Hardware. > When will the flamewar ever end? Is x86 the magical trolling word around here? I'm real sorry, I never knew that mentioning x86 systems here would cause such a dicussion. That said, does anyone happen to know when the "newest" produced VAX was made? My best research indicates that HP continued cranking them out until mid-2005, but that could be wrong... -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From segin2005 at gmail.com Sat Aug 5 12:22:48 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 13:22:48 -0400 Subject: VAXen RULE! (WAS Microkernels) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D4D3E8.802@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: >>Current Macs share much more with PeeCees >>than SGI IRISes and Sun SPARCs, so there is most likely a non-insignificant > > amount of suboptimal hardware that eats processor cycles > > Please give concrete examples of this "suboptimal hardware" you speculate > about, and give examples of how this is done better on SGI or Sun DESKTOP > CLASS Hardware. > When will the flamewar ever end? Is x86 the magical trolling word around here? I'm real sorry, I never knew that mentioning x86 systems here would cause such a dicussion. That said, does anyone happen to know when the "newest" produced VAX was made? My best research indicates that HP continued cranking them out until mid-2005, but that could be wrong... -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Aug 5 12:22:33 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 10:22:33 -0700 Subject: Microkernels (WAS Re: New to the list) In-Reply-To: <16c3fd0fca3740f08f8251f0b1f99d59@valleyimplants.com> References: <16c3fd0fca3740f08f8251f0b1f99d59@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <44D4D3D9.8080702@DakotaCom.Net> Scott Quinn wrote: > > The reason I brought up System 10 is that it is the "best" microkernel implementation I have at this point > (the other one is a OPENSTEP box, substatntially older). Current Macs share much more with PeeCees > than SGI IRISes and Sun SPARCs, so there is most likely a non-insignificant amount of suboptimal hardware > that eats processor cycles like a cow eats grass to do things that a better arch. hands off and is done with. > > I was hoping a OSF/1-DUNIX-Tru64 user would pop in a bit more about that platform (hoping to pick up most > of a AS4100 to try it out on soon). It uses the OSF/1 Mach-based system but on well-designed few-compromises > hardware. I would still suspect a mk-based design to fall short on performance. E.g., I believe Mach-US and -UX were notably slower implementations than the monolithic bsdss running on the same mk. If you look at "true believer" mk architectures, you see things significantly decomposed and *lots* of little servers involved in *everything* (e.g., even resolving a path in a filesystem involves lots of abstraction -- directories are active objects, not passive "name lists", etc.). And, each one of these incurs a significant performance hit because "communication" isn't *just* "pass a parameter list on the stack". OTOH, in embedded designs where things like name resolution and object identification are largely static (and can happen *once* or *infrequently*), that overhead falls to a more manageable level (e.g., the cost of setting up the equivalent of "pipes" is born once). From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Aug 5 12:26:26 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 10:26:26 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44D4D4C2.7070800@DakotaCom.Net> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Don Y wrote: >> Don't confuse consumer "peecees" with other modern machines. >> (what's the MTBF on that 15 year old disk drive from your 386sx??) > Depends on the drive. I've had modern 80GB, and 160GB drives die on me > after only about a year of use (funny how they go just past the > warranty!). These were well taken care of drives. Meanwhile I have > several 5MB 5.25" full height Seagate drives for my Lisa that are nearly > 25 years old - and they still work, though they sound like jet engines > when I turn them on. But how many *hours* do they have on them? > The real problem with ancient x86 hardware is cost per watt. I don't > mean the CPU, I mean the entire machine. A modern machine runs a lot > more efficiently than an old 386, even though Intel CPU's were until > recently notorious for consuming lots of power. There are very few > things I can't do with a modern machine that I could do with an old 486 > or 386 - even if it has to be inside a VM or emulator. > > That said, until very recently, I used a Pentium I 100Mhz with 64M of > RAM as a router. Ran beautifully, and it served better as a router than > taking up space in a junk yard. > > I replaced this with another aging machine - a PIII running at 500Mhz, > which only uses 100Watts more - but I can certainly get a lot more out > of it. So that old machine certainly cost me more to run than the new > one in terms of performance for electricity used. I certainly don't > need a 2Ghz AMD64 with 4GB of RAM for use as a router. Today. In 5 > years from now, my desktop will be very likely be my router. I prefer SPARC LX's... they draw maybe *40* watts? (though I don't move much network traffic through them so I can live with their reduced bandwidth) Perhaps I'll replace the disk with a solid state drive and cut that (and the noise) even more... > I tend to look at the early machines as a Cambrian explosion. We saw a > ton of different kinds of machines, each unique in its own way. The Good analogy! > market made them extinct, so now we have only several handfuls of kinds > of machines. But, those old ancient beasties were wonderful in their > own ways. A 286, or 386 being the ancestor of modern common PC's makes > it uninteresting - but only because of how common they were. > > A few of the ancient x86 line have some historical value. The 1st IBM > PC, the Jr, the 1st laptops, the 1st portable PC, and so on are > collectibles because they are the 1st of something. But a generic white > box 386, meh. From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 5 12:26:17 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 13:26:17 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D43BFE.90704@gmail.com> References: <44D433C3.90106@DakotaCom.Net> <44D43BFE.90704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608051326.17490.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 05 August 2006 02:34 am, Segin wrote: > Well, I've owned a Mac Plus 1MB and a Mac SE/30 before, but they got > dumpstered after stuff started falling apart. Literally. I opened up the > Plus only to find that the CPU has literally *disintegrated*. A lot of > the capacitors and resistors were lying on the mobo cause their sodder > has worn away... I've been a tech for coming up on four decades now, most of that time having my hands inside of the hardware of one sort or another, and the earlier stuff had vacuum tubes in it, on up to current technology. And I've *never* seen anything like what you describe here, or heard of such a thing either. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Aug 5 12:28:52 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 10:28:52 -0700 Subject: MO support In-Reply-To: <200608042346500653.034C6367@10.0.0.252> References: <44D437BC.50205@DakotaCom.Net> <200608042330190539.033D4404@10.0.0.252> <44D43C26.80203@DakotaCom.Net> <200608042346500653.034C6367@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D4D554.3070000@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/4/2006 at 11:35 PM Don Y wrote: > >> Yes, but that's yet another MS OS. :-( I would prefer >> support on one of the *BSD but I don't think it's there, yet (?). >> Or, barring that, Solaris. > > Wonder if one could "layer" in a driver to block/deblock from/to 512 byte > sectors without breaking things. Surely seems possible. Mmmm.... *possibly*. I'm not sure how much of a kludge that would end up being and how easily you could isolate it's effects. E.g., would df(1) magically work right in that sort of implementation? Besides, I'd rather just *use* something existing -- hence my begrudging acceptance of hooking the JB to a W2K machine. From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Aug 5 12:30:34 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 10:30:34 -0700 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44D4D5BA.3080700@mdrconsult.com> Segin wrote: > Mac OS X is a fork of FreeBSD, a modern UNIX with hardware memory > management and protection, preemptive multitasking, complex file systems > and structures, a roburst netowkring API (BSD sockets), etc. Mac OS X is not, repeat not, a fork of any UNIX. OS X is still a Mach OS, with a UNIX API based originally on FreeBSD code. Doc From segin2005 at gmail.com Sat Aug 5 12:38:24 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 13:38:24 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608051326.17490.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44D433C3.90106@DakotaCom.Net> <44D43BFE.90704@gmail.com> <200608051326.17490.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44D4D790.2050508@gmail.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I've been a tech for coming up on four decades now, most of that time having > my hands inside of the hardware of one sort or another, and the earlier > stuff had vacuum tubes in it, on up to current technology. > > And I've *never* seen anything like what you describe here, or heard of such > a thing either. > You think YOU are suprised? Well, if you were to have open up a system to find the CPU in fragments, and between the fragments be a dust material of a similar composition as the CPU, I am pretty sure you would have been shocked and declared it disintegration. No it couldn't be from electrical overload -- it had sat for a year without being used or pluggred in before this happened... When it did work, though, I used to use it to play Zork II and Planetfall... ohh, and some 8k Missile Command clone. I also imaged out a Arkanoid disk (duct tape over the floppy HD hole, anyone? Instant 800k disk!) -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sat Aug 5 12:33:50 2006 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 19:33:50 +0200 Subject: CDs: The Rainbow Books Message-ID: <20060805173350.GN20586@lug-owl.de> Hi! We're all using CDs of different kind (CDs containing data, audio CDs, maybe even some with more interesting formats like those for some old arcade games using the 30 MB of R..W subchannel information, ...) I'm currently trying to gather as much information about the low-level format of CDs as possible. While there's a lot at a first glance, it's all mostly unuseable. Eg. the SCSI MMC-3 draft tells you how to get some of the "interesting" data, but there's of course no reference how to decode the data. I've been looking for the "Rainbow Books" (Red Book describing Audio CDs, ...), but those are quite expensive. Partial information is available through standards of other kind (eg. most of the Red Book became an IEC standard, too), but those are a bit expensive, too. Did you ever come along detailed technical documentation about these little silver beasts that'd allow to hack some nice extraction and refactoring tools? Or do you happen to own one of the books and are willing to hand it over to me for a week? MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Friends are relatives you make for yourself. the second : From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 5 12:35:45 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 13:35:45 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> References: <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200608051335.45703.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 05 August 2006 11:59 am, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Don Y wrote: > > Don't confuse consumer "peecees" with other modern machines. > > (what's the MTBF on that 15 year old disk drive from your 386sx??) > > Depends on the drive. I've had modern 80GB, and 160GB drives die on me > after only about a year of use (funny how they go just past the > warranty!). These were well taken care of drives. Meanwhile I have > several 5MB 5.25" full height Seagate drives for my Lisa that are nearly > 25 years old - and they still work, though they sound like jet engines > when I turn them on. Speaking of big old clunky drives, I have a couple of those around here that I have no use for -- they're 5.25" FH, SCSI, and I'm told around a gig each. There are some terminators and such on one that aren't on the other, and of course the jumpering is different (but there _are_ jumpers). Anybody interested in taking these off my hands? Please? Feel free to contact me offlist... > The real problem with ancient x86 hardware is cost per watt. I don't > mean the CPU, I mean the entire machine. A modern machine runs a lot > more efficiently than an old 386, even though Intel CPU's were until > recently notorious for consuming lots of power. There are very few > things I can't do with a modern machine that I could do with an old 486 > or 386 - even if it has to be inside a VM or emulator. > > That said, until very recently, I used a Pentium I 100Mhz with 64M of > RAM as a router. Ran beautifully, and it served better as a router than > taking up space in a junk yard. Indeed. I am currently using (and sending this stuff through) a 486dx2/66 for a firewall/router. And when I get done with that one for whatever reason I have plenty more similar hardware to "use up" before I move on to the Pentium-class hardware, of which I also have plenty. > I replaced this with another aging machine - a PIII running at 500Mhz, > which only uses 100Watts more - but I can certainly get a lot more out > of it. So that old machine certainly cost me more to run than the new > one in terms of performance for electricity used. I certainly don't > need a 2Ghz AMD64 with 4GB of RAM for use as a router. Today. In 5 > years from now, my desktop will be very likely be my router. A P-III is "an aging machine"? I guess I'm still *way* behind the times, then... The "workstation" I'm typing this on is a Celeron 366 (though I have a few faster boxes on hand that I really do need to get into the picture here when I can stop *using* it long enough to do some upgrades :-) and the "server" here is a K6-200... Got a couple of P-II boards around, but no P-III -- and isn't that the one where they introduced the processor serial number? <...> > A few of the ancient x86 line have some historical value. The 1st IBM > PC, the Jr, the 1st laptops, the 1st portable PC, and so on are > collectibles because they are the 1st of something. But a generic white > box 386, meh. I still don't intend to throw 'em out until they're all used up. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 5 12:48:16 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 10:48:16 -0700 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 1:41 AM -0400 8/5/06, Segin wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >>I'm still not convinced Mac OS X is that big of an improvement over >>my Mac OS 9 system. >> >> Zane >> > >Mac OS 9 is very similar to Windows 3.1 -- no memory protection, >co-operative multitasking, limited file structures, poor networking, >one-app's-bug-brings-it-all-down, etc. > >Mac OS X is a fork of FreeBSD, a modern UNIX with hardware memory >management and protection, preemptive multitasking, complex file >systems and structures, a roburst netowkring API (BSD sockets), etc. > >So you are saying that FreeBSD isn't much of an improvement over Windows 3.1? > >In terms of function and design, that is. Run correctly, with carefully selected versions, Mac OS 9 is just as stable as any version of Windows through the start of Windows XP. Depending on what you're doing the cooperative multitasking is actually better than the preemptive multitasking. Moving to Mac OS X actually resulted in my system not being fast enough to run several apps. For me the only advantage to Mac OS X is that I can run the few Unix applications I need and most of my favorite commercial apps all on the same box (still need an Alpha for OpenVMS). Oh, and you might want to read up on what filesystem sits under Mac OS X. The largest problems with Mac OS X are how inefficient it is, and it's off/on/off support of classic Appletalk (which some of us still need, and is why I'm still on 10.3.9 even though I bought 10.4 the day it was released). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 5 12:56:50 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 10:56:50 -0700 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <44D47B88.8040909@neurotica.com> References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <44D47B88.8040909@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 7:05 AM -0400 8/5/06, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Yes. MacOS "Classic" needs to die, die, die. You going to be the one to get companies like Apple to port all the Classic apps that haven't been updated in half of forever (i.e. still 68k)? Some of us have applications that there is no modern equivalent of. Sadly the solution needs to be a well integrated 3rd party emulator for the newer systems :^( Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ray at arachelian.com Sat Aug 5 13:00:16 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 14:00:16 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D4D4C2.7070800@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <44D4D4C2.7070800@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44D4DCB0.20305@arachelian.com> Don Y wrote: >> Depends on the drive. I've had modern 80GB, and 160GB drives die on me >> after only about a year of use (funny how they go just past the >> warranty!). These were well taken care of drives. Meanwhile I have >> several 5MB 5.25" full height Seagate drives for my Lisa that are nearly >> 25 years old - and they still work, though they sound like jet engines >> when I turn them on. > > But how many *hours* do they have on them? One of them had quite a lot of hours. I used it every day for at least 3-4 hours for about 2-3 years before upgrading from the Lisa running MacWorks to a Hackintosh IIcx (that's a Mac IIcx motherboard, which I hooked up inside a 286's hacked up case, with that 286's power supply & third party memory, hard drive, floppy, etc.). :-) Of the two modern drives, one of the 80GB drives was inside a machine that I rarely used - maybe I powered it on every other weekend or so. > I prefer SPARC LX's... they draw maybe *40* watts? (though I > don't move much network traffic through them so I can live with > their reduced bandwidth) Perhaps I'll replace the disk with > a solid state drive and cut that (and the noise) even more... I'd rather go with a Mac Mini - the original G4 one. Runs at 80Watts and has a gig of RAM + 1.2GHz CPU. :-) more performance/watt there. I do have a lovely sparcstation voyager which is similar to that LX, but with only 32M of RAM, I had to use CF flash cards in a PCMCIA<->CF cradle for swap. Runs Solaris 2.6 just fine. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 5 13:08:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 11:08:29 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608051335.45703.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <200608051335.45703.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608051108290673.05BC750B@10.0.0.252> Don Y wrote: > I replaced this with another aging machine - a PIII running at 500Mhz, > which only uses 100Watts more - but I can certainly get a lot more out > of it. So that old machine certainly cost me more to run than the new > one in terms of performance for electricity used. I certainly don't > need a 2Ghz AMD64 with 4GB of RAM for use as a router. Today. In 5 > years from now, my desktop will be very likely be my router. I use a 500 MHz PIII as a router, mailserver, and FM broadcaster--and there's still way too much unused capacity. So I also have iit enrolled in the BOINC project. Might as well do somone some good with those wasted watts. http://boinc.berkeley.edu/ Cheers, Chuck From ray at arachelian.com Sat Aug 5 13:12:34 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 14:12:34 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608051335.45703.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <200608051335.45703.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44D4DF92.7000206@arachelian.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Speaking of big old clunky drives, I have a couple of those around here that > I have no use for -- they're 5.25" FH, SCSI, and I'm told around a gig > each. There are some terminators and such on one that aren't on the other, > and of course the jumpering is different (but there _are_ jumpers). Anybody > interested in taking these off my hands? Please? Feel free to contact me > offlist... > If you have any dead ones, they are great if you teach computer classes. You can take'em apart and passe'm around opened, since the parts are quite big, it's easy to point them out. :-) Either that, or um, hang'em on a wall as art? :-) That said, they do have some rather interesting magnets inside of them. > Indeed. I am currently using (and sending this stuff through) a 486dx2/66 for > a firewall/router. And when I get done with that one for whatever reason I > have plenty more similar hardware to "use up" before I move on to the > Pentium-class hardware, of which I also have plenty. > They do have plenty of CPU power to act as NAT/firewall routers, but if you want to run ssh, you'll find them a bit on the slow side. The 500Mhz PIII I replaced my P1 with now also runs a squid proxy and an adblocker as well. Soon as you rely on any encryption, especially if any part of that does a public key exchange, 486's and P100's are very very slow. Things like blowfish and RC40 work fine though. The problem with storing old hardware though is that you'll have to replace dead capacitors as they dry up, etc. You won't have problems with 486's, but anything over 15 years old might have issues there. Things over 20 years of age certainly. > A P-III is "an aging machine"? I guess I'm still *way* behind the times, > then... The "workstation" I'm typing this on is a Celeron 366 (though I have > a few faster boxes on hand that I really do need to get into the picture here > when I can stop *using* it long enough to do some upgrades :-) and the > "server" here is a K6-200... > Relatively to other hardware, yes. :-) Depends on what you want to do. A low end machine can work just fine as a file server, DNS, DHCP, router, firewall because those are I/O bound. So there's little difference between a 486 and a PIII at DSL/cable modem speeds. Any more and you'll need something a bit more beefy. > Got a couple of P-II boards around, but no P-III -- and isn't that the one > where they introduced the processor serial number? > I think so yeah, the bastards. At least they also gave us a random number generator too. > I still don't intend to throw 'em out until they're all used up. :-) > Yeah, I got a few old boxen here too. I need to figure out a use for the old P100. I do have a 486 and a 386 somewhere in the closet too. I think I have some ancient 8 port serial card somewhere that's ISA, or perhaps I can use it with a catweasel as a data transfer machine with 5.25" floppies or such. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 5 13:17:20 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 11:17:20 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608051326.17490.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44D433C3.90106@DakotaCom.Net> <44D43BFE.90704@gmail.com> <200608051326.17490.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608051117200045.05C48CCF@10.0.0.252> On 8/5/2006 at 1:26 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >I've been a tech for coming up on four decades now, most of that time >having my hands inside of the hardware of one sort or another, and the earlier >stuff had vacuum tubes in it, on up to current technology. > >And I've *never* seen anything like what you describe here, or heard of such >a thing either. I've seen something close to it--an old PC stored in a garage next to a leaking jug of muriatic acid. Most of the copper turned to green dust, but the packages (ceramic and plastic) were fine. The zinc plating on the chassis was gone and the steel underneath was nearly rusted through in places. The concrete floor also took a hit. Cheers, Chuck From ray at arachelian.com Sat Aug 5 13:25:43 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 14:25:43 -0400 Subject: Classic Mac emulation (was Re: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.)) In-Reply-To: References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <44D47B88.8040909@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44D4E2A7.1090501@arachelian.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > You going to be the one to get companies like Apple to port all the > Classic apps that haven't been updated in half of forever (i.e. still > 68k)? Some of us have applications that there is no modern equivalent > of. Sadly the solution needs to be a well integrated 3rd party > emulator for the newer systems :^( > Basilisk II works just fine for me as an 020 or 040 emulator. I only wish it would run A/UX and support virtual floppies. There's also mini-VMac as well. The original vMac seems to have fell off the face of the planet. Its website is still up, but you can no longer download the packages. see: http://basilisk.cebix.net/#download and http://www.users.bigpond.com/pear_computers/ and http://www.gibix.net/dokuwiki/en:projects:basilisk2#downloads ). http://minivmac.sourceforge.net/ <- emulator here. http://www.rolli.ch/MacPlus <- Ancient Mac OS software I also had lots of fun with MAE 2.0 on Sun machines, though the AppleTalk and I think a storage driver (floppy? CDROM?) doesn't work with modern Solaris's. I was able to download MAE 3.0 before apple killed off the MAE website, but unfortunately didn't have a serial # for it, so it's kind of worthless. There's also Executor which you can find here: http://www.ardi.com/ which is mostly compatible with 68K Mac OS software. It's not open source, but there are binaries for windows and linux. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 5 13:27:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 11:27:14 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D4DF92.7000206@arachelian.com> References: <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <200608051335.45703.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D4DF92.7000206@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200608051127140891.05CDA06D@10.0.0.252> On 8/5/2006 at 2:12 PM Ray Arachelian wrote: >Yeah, I got a few old boxen here too. I need to figure out a use for >the old P100. I do have a 486 and a 386 somewhere in the closet too. I >think I have some ancient 8 port serial card somewhere that's ISA, or >perhaps I can use it with a catweasel as a data transfer machine with >5.25" floppies or such. They're fine for copying floppies, data transfer, handling tapes, etc. My old standby for most data transfer stuff is an HP Vectra P1 166 tower. One with the expansion slots at a right angles to the mobo, so that I can get at cards easily. It's new enough that it runs Win98, Linux or NetBSD just fine, even though it spends most of its time in DOS--and it has the old ISA Catweasel in it. I still keep an old XT around for things like the MatchPoint and Deluxe Option Boards. It's not networked (yet) although I do have an Artisoft NE1000 clone card installed. Just no software yet. Same idea for old AT and 33MHz 386 boxes around here. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 5 13:32:17 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 11:32:17 -0700 Subject: Microkernels (WAS Re: New to the list) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:12 AM -0700 8/5/06, Al Kossow wrote: > > Current Macs share much more with PeeCees > > than SGI IRISes and Sun SPARCs, so there is most likely a non-insignificant > > amount of suboptimal hardware that eats processor cycles > >Please give concrete examples of this "suboptimal hardware" you speculate >about, and give examples of how this is done better on SGI or Sun DESKTOP >CLASS Hardware. You know, I was about to comment on that one myself. I personally consider my PowerMac G5 dual 2Ghz to be very closely related to an SGI Octane, but an improvement. It is most definitely a better design than my SGI o2's. I'd say the design is better than any of my better PCI-based Sun's (Ultra 60 and SunBlade 1000). Construction wise, my G5 beats any of them. The only place it is likely to loose out, is in Graphics. Unfortunately this does not include the OS. Solaris and IRIX don't hang the way that Mac OS X does. I've got so far as to try to get a IRIX system with very low spec's to keel over, and the best I could do was slow it down significantly but it was still very responsive. Of course I am talking about a Professional Mac, and not a consumer grade Mac. I must confess that I'm not that impressed with the consumer grade models. But then the closest I've ever been to a consumer grade Mac was my PowerBook 520c. Also that "suboptimal hardware" is used in Sun hardware as well. Take a look at all the cards on Workstations and you'll see that they're basically PC cards. It is things like the chipsets that make or break a computer. For example, last year we got a new server in that was purchased for our team by another group without talking to us. It was the most pathetic piece of **** I've ever seen come out of Sun. It totally crumbled under the I/O load that it was expected to handle, and could only handle 1/16th of the load it was expected to handle. It would have made a nice workstation (if it had a UPA slot), but it simply couldn't handle receiving data on one PCI card and sending it out another. It wasn't the PCI cards that were the bottleneck, it was the way the system was designed. For truly well designed hardware take a look at some of the IBM systems, they use PCI as well, but WOW! Also take a look at something like an HP DL380 G4, for a fairly nice Xeon-based system, though the onboard RAID stinks. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 5 13:37:29 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 11:37:29 -0700 Subject: VAXen RULE! (WAS Microkernels) In-Reply-To: <44D4D3E8.802@gmail.com> References: <44D4D3E8.802@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 1:22 PM -0400 8/5/06, Segin wrote: >Al Kossow wrote: >>>Current Macs share much more with PeeCees >>>than SGI IRISes and Sun SPARCs, so there is most likely a non-insignificant >> >>amount of suboptimal hardware that eats processor cycles >> >>Please give concrete examples of this "suboptimal hardware" you speculate >>about, and give examples of how this is done better on SGI or Sun DESKTOP >>CLASS Hardware. >> >When will the flamewar ever end? Is x86 the magical trolling word >around here? I'm real sorry, I never knew that mentioning x86 >systems here would cause such a dicussion. Well a couple of us were genuinely interested in why you like 386's. This hasn't degenerated into a flamewar yet :^) >That said, does anyone happen to know when the "newest" produced VAX >was made? My best research indicates that HP continued cranking them >out until mid-2005, but that could be wrong... Are you talking about VAX or OpenVMS? VAX is a hardware platform, last sale date was prior to 9/11 (IIRC either '99 or 2000). Though I think the last chips were made prior to that. The last sale date for Alpha is this year. For OpenVMS Itanium is the way forward. Don't let the press, and various "experts" fool you, the current Itanium 2 is a very nice CPU. OpenVMS runs on all three of these CPU families. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Aug 5 13:43:29 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 11:43:29 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D4DCB0.20305@arachelian.com> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <44D4D4C2.7070800@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4DCB0.20305@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44D4E6D1.2040907@DakotaCom.Net> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Don Y wrote: >>> Depends on the drive. I've had modern 80GB, and 160GB drives die on me >>> after only about a year of use (funny how they go just past the >>> warranty!). These were well taken care of drives. Meanwhile I have >>> several 5MB 5.25" full height Seagate drives for my Lisa that are nearly >>> 25 years old - and they still work, though they sound like jet engines >>> when I turn them on. >> But how many *hours* do they have on them? > One of them had quite a lot of hours. I used it every day for at least > 3-4 hours for about 2-3 years before upgrading from the Lisa running So, a few *thousand* hours? :> > MacWorks to a Hackintosh IIcx (that's a Mac IIcx motherboard, which I > hooked up inside a 286's hacked up case, with that 286's power supply & > third party memory, hard drive, floppy, etc.). :-) Of the two modern > drives, one of the 80GB drives was inside a machine that I rarely used - > maybe I powered it on every other weekend or so. > >> I prefer SPARC LX's... they draw maybe *40* watts? (though I >> don't move much network traffic through them so I can live with >> their reduced bandwidth) Perhaps I'll replace the disk with >> a solid state drive and cut that (and the noise) even more... > > I'd rather go with a Mac Mini - the original G4 one. Runs at 80Watts > and has a gig of RAM + 1.2GHz CPU. :-) more performance/watt there. I > do have a lovely sparcstation voyager which is similar to that LX, but > with only 32M of RAM, I had to use CF flash cards in a PCMCIA<->CF > cradle for swap. Runs Solaris 2.6 just fine. I put 64M in my Voyager but want to upgrade the 800M (?) drive. Unfortunately, small SCSI drives are hard to find. And, the display on the Voyager is painfully small. From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Aug 5 13:41:34 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 13:41:34 -0500 Subject: rescue?: Toshiba Satellite T2135CS in Atlanta Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060805134038.056ebd78@mail> Not the oldest, but free and intact, apparently. - John >At 10:45 AM 8/5/2006, you wrote: > >>Hey John, >>I'm sure what I have is not quite the vintage you're looking for but I would hate to have it wind up in a landfill. I was cleaning out my basement and found my first laptop - a Toshiba Satellite T2135CS. I have all the manuals and a full 40 disc set of back-up discs. Do you know anyone who might be interested? >>Steve From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 5 13:46:06 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 11:46:06 -0700 Subject: Classic Mac emulation (was Re: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.)) In-Reply-To: <44D4E2A7.1090501@arachelian.com> References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <44D47B88.8040909@neurotica.com> <44D4E2A7.1090501@arachelian.com> Message-ID: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >> You going to be the one to get companies like Apple to port all the >> Classic apps that haven't been updated in half of forever (i.e. still >> 68k)? Some of us have applications that there is no modern equivalent >> of. Sadly the solution needs to be a well integrated 3rd party >> emulator for the newer systems :^( >> >Basilisk II works just fine for me as an 020 or 040 emulator. I only >wish it would run A/UX and support virtual floppies. > >There's also mini-VMac as well. The original vMac seems to have fell >off the face of the planet. Its website is still up, but you can no >longer download the packages. I've head of these, but haven't tried them yet, as I'm still running 10.3.9 on a G5, so can still run my software under classic. Ideally I'd like a PPC emulator, even a 604e would work for me. I need something that supports networking, interfaces cleanly with the host OS's filesystem, and gives me a decent sized screen (1280x1024 would do nicely). Ideally PPC support, but just 68k support would let me run the most important stuff. I really need to check check out a modern version of Basilisk II and mini-vMac! It might even allow me to move to Mac OS X 10.4. >There's also Executor which you can find here: http://www.ardi.com/ >which is mostly compatible with 68K Mac OS software. It's not open >source, but there are binaries for windows and linux. Wow, I remember them well, I used the Demo 10+ years ago to write floppies on my P90 laptop running Windows and Linux (it could access the Internet, when I was in the US and had phone access) that could be read on my PowerBook 520c. It was pretty cool. IIRC, the demo was also where I got what was one of my favorite Mac OS X games :^) To bad they're not still a functioning business. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ray at arachelian.com Sat Aug 5 14:02:45 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 15:02:45 -0400 Subject: Classic Mac emulation (was Re: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.)) In-Reply-To: References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <44D47B88.8040909@neurotica.com> <44D4E2A7.1090501@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44D4EB55.1000508@arachelian.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I've head of these, but haven't tried them yet, as I'm still running > 10.3.9 on a G5, so can still run my software under classic. Ideally > I'd like a PPC emulator, even a 604e would work for me. ... > I need something that supports networking, interfaces cleanly with the > host OS's filesystem, and gives me a decent sized screen (1280x1024 > would do nicely). Ideally PPC support, but just 68k support would let > me run the most important stuff. I think PearPC does PPC emulation. It emulates a G3 or G4, but very slowly. see http://pearpc.sourceforge.net/ and this link for an article that tells you how to configure it: http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2005/01/18/PearPC.html I'm not sure if it will run OS 9.x. Basilisk will run upto OS 8.5 just fine. (OS 9 is PPC only) Basilisk II does have networking, and you can surf the web with ancient Netscape Navigators. At least, there's a network module for it on Windows. Not sure about under Mac OS X. > Wow, I remember them well, I used the Demo 10+ years ago to write > floppies on my P90 laptop running Windows and Linux (it could access > the Internet, when I was in the US and had phone access) that could be > read on my PowerBook 520c. It was pretty cool. IIRC, the demo was > also where I got what was one of my favorite Mac OS X games :^) To bad > they're not still a functioning business. Yeah, but if they open source it, it has a better chance of survival, in one form or another. Executor's 68K core seems to be very fast, so it could be useful to lots of other emulation projects. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Aug 5 14:04:20 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 15:04:20 -0400 Subject: VAXen RULE! (WAS Microkernels) In-Reply-To: References: <44D4D3E8.802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608051504.20881.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 05 August 2006 14:37, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Are you talking about VAX or OpenVMS? VAX is a hardware platform, > last sale date was prior to 9/11 (IIRC either '99 or 2000). Though I > think the last chips were made prior to that. The last sale date for > Alpha is this year. For OpenVMS Itanium is the way forward. Don't > let the press, and various "experts" fool you, the current Itanium 2 > is a very nice CPU. OpenVMS runs on all three of these CPU families. Just imagine how WONDERFUL it'd be if an Itanium 2 box could run MacOS Classic. (Sorry, couldn't resist..) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ray at arachelian.com Sat Aug 5 14:16:31 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 15:16:31 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D4E6D1.2040907@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <44D4D4C2.7070800@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4DCB0.20305@arachelian.com> <44D4E6D1.2040907@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44D4EE8F.306@arachelian.com> Don Y wrote: > > I put 64M in my Voyager but want to upgrade the 800M (?) > drive. Unfortunately, small SCSI drives are hard to find. > And, the display on the Voyager is painfully small. > You're lucky to have found the RAM for it - those are rare. There are 2.5" SCSI-IDE bridges out there, if the drive bay is large enough to hold a slim 2.5" drive + the bridge, you can do it, but you'll have to edit the format.dat parameters for the drive. Likely you won't be able to format to the exact capacity of the drive if it's over 4GB's, but even if you squeeze 16GB out of a 20GB IDE drive, it'll be great. I used these (scsi-ide-bridges) in my old SPARCbooks. (see: http://www.sunder.net/SPARCbook/#drive ) Ran beautifully, and a lot faster than with the older 1GB/2GB scsi drives since you can use 5400/7200RPM drives. I bought mine from dirtcheapdrives, but they no longer seem to carry them, so you might have to google around. I was looking around for some just now to give you a link, but most of the ones I see are for 3.5" drives. Sorry. These guys make'em (ADTX): http://www.adtx.com/us/conv-SCSI-IDE.html This one probably won't work work, but I'm not sure: http://www.directron.com/ars2000fu.html From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Aug 5 13:53:59 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 11:53:59 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608051108290673.05BC750B@10.0.0.252> References: <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <200608051335.45703.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608051108290673.05BC750B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D4E947.9030800@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Don Y wrote: > >> I replaced this with another aging machine - a PIII running at 500Mhz, >> which only uses 100Watts more - but I can certainly get a lot more out >> of it. So that old machine certainly cost me more to run than the new >> one in terms of performance for electricity used. I certainly don't >> need a 2Ghz AMD64 with 4GB of RAM for use as a router. Today. In 5 >> years from now, my desktop will be very likely be my router. > > I use a 500 MHz PIII as a router, mailserver, and FM broadcaster--and > there's still way too much unused capacity. So I also have iit enrolled in > the BOINC project. Might as well do somone some good with those wasted > watts. I don;t let my machines talk to the outside world (this is the easiest way for me to keep everything 100% secure with zero effort on my part :> ) so if I cant use the MIPS, they get wasted. :-( I had inherited three Dell Precision 410MT's (dual Piii/600's) and thought of replacing the LX and Classic that serve as my routers with them. But, the size (tower-ish) and power (not just $$$ but BTU's as well -- this is AZ so we don't need any extra heat even in Winter!) differences between them and the cute little SPARC boxes made this a no-brainer decision. (I kept one of the Dells and donated the other two to a local charity. In hindsight, perhaps I should have lifted the memory out of them and flushed-up the one that I kept :< ) From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Aug 5 13:59:51 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 11:59:51 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608051127140891.05CDA06D@10.0.0.252> References: <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <200608051335.45703.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D4DF92.7000206@arachelian.com> <200608051127140891.05CDA06D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D4EAA7.9020901@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/5/2006 at 2:12 PM Ray Arachelian wrote: > >> Yeah, I got a few old boxen here too. I need to figure out a use for >> the old P100. I do have a 486 and a 386 somewhere in the closet too. I >> think I have some ancient 8 port serial card somewhere that's ISA, or >> perhaps I can use it with a catweasel as a data transfer machine with >> 5.25" floppies or such. > > They're fine for copying floppies, data transfer, handling tapes, etc. My > old standby for most data transfer stuff is an HP Vectra P1 166 tower. One > with the expansion slots at a right angles to the mobo, so that I can get > at cards easily. It's new enough that it runs Win98, Linux or NetBSD just > fine, even though it spends most of its time in DOS--and it has the old ISA > Catweasel in it. I keep an old Gateway 486 for legacy work (3+5" floppies, nice slow ISA bus, etc.). I can hack together an interface card for that bus a lot easier than for any of the other machines I have here (PCI, SBUS, NuBus, etc.) And, it's mechanically a lot more tolerant (bigger fingers, etc.). > I still keep an old XT around for things like the MatchPoint and Deluxe > Option Boards. It's not networked (yet) although I do have an Artisoft > NE1000 clone card installed. Just no software yet. Same idea for old AT > and 33MHz 386 boxes around here. I use a Xircom parallel port adapter on my compaq portable 3 for networking. If I am lucky, I can get about 75KB/s (B not b) so it's better than nothing (and, for just moving files it's a helluvalot better than trying to copy 5" floppies between machines!). Since it is a 286, it'll never run any "real" software () though it is a perfect home for the Opus card. From steerex at mindspring.com Sat Aug 5 14:57:14 2006 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 15:57:14 -0400 Subject: HP3000/922 attemts at booting...a little farther now Message-ID: <01C6B8A7.D27303C0@MAGGIE> DOH... My bad... I thought it was a hpux system :-( ---------- From: Scott Quinn Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 10:36 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: HP3000/922 attemts at booting...a little farther now >At the "ISL>" prompt, enter "hpux -is". This will boot the system into single user mode and automatically log you in as "root". > >------- > >When your in the system, you can change the root password: > >"passwd root" > >Just reboot he system "shutdown -r now" and let it follow the normal boot process. So is MPE that similar to HP-UX? I thought it would be something semi-bizarre so I didn't pursue it at all (also the difficulty of finding a 3k and MPE media). Had it slotted in with OS/400 in the "things that will be a huge headache and very expensive, so don't bother" class... From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Aug 5 15:19:53 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 13:19:53 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D4EE8F.306@arachelian.com> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <44D4D4C2.7070800@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4DCB0.20305@arachelian.com> <44D4E6D1.2040907@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4EE8F.306@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44D4FD69.90500@DakotaCom.Net> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Don Y wrote: >> I put 64M in my Voyager but want to upgrade the 800M (?) >> drive. Unfortunately, small SCSI drives are hard to find. >> And, the display on the Voyager is painfully small. > > You're lucky to have found the RAM for it - those are rare. There are Even luckier -- it *came* with it! ;-) > 2.5" SCSI-IDE bridges out there, if the drive bay is large enough to > hold a slim 2.5" drive + the bridge, you can do it, but you'll have to > edit the format.dat parameters for the drive. Likely you won't be able > to format to the exact capacity of the drive if it's over 4GB's, but > even if you squeeze 16GB out of a 20GB IDE drive, it'll be great. I think I would *like* to keep things as close to "normal" (original?) as possible and not let the machine devolve into a patchwork hodge-podge. I don't use it for any *real* work since I have other more capable (and comfortable!) machines for that. Even the 800M (or is it 600?) drive is big enough to let it connect to other servers here (which can do the *real* work). I originally hoped to put it in the kitchen as a nice little email box (but I have been overruled on that idea :< ) > I used these (scsi-ide-bridges) in my old SPARCbooks. (see: > http://www.sunder.net/SPARCbook/#drive ) Ran beautifully, and a lot > faster than with the older 1GB/2GB scsi drives since you can use > 5400/7200RPM drives. > > I bought mine from dirtcheapdrives, but they no longer seem to carry > them, so you might have to google around. I was looking around for some > just now to give you a link, but most of the ones I see are for 3.5" > drives. Sorry. > > These guys make'em (ADTX): http://www.adtx.com/us/conv-SCSI-IDE.html > > This one probably won't work work, but I'm not sure: > http://www.directron.com/ars2000fu.html Thanks, I'll save the pointers in case I decide to bite the bullet. Old Macs used SCSI. Did old apple laptops *also* use SCSI drives? (i.e. might that be a source I can check out?) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 5 15:42:54 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 14:42:54 -0600 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <44D43361.4040009@gmail.com> References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <200608042248260855.0316ED3D@10.0.0.252> <44D43361.4040009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44D502CE.6060506@jetnet.ab.ca> Segin wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 8/5/2006 at 1:41 AM Segin wrote: >> >> >>> Mac OS 9 is very similar to Windows 3.1 -- no memory protection, >>> co-operative multitasking, limited file structures, poor networking, >>> one-app's-bug-brings-it-all-down, etc. >> >> >> >> The big difference is that OS 9 is a real operating system. Win3.1 is >> basically a DPMI server with a bunch of APIs to implement windowing. >> Under >> the hood, it's still MS-DOS. One boots OS 9, but not Win 3.1 (or >> WIn9x for >> that matter)--one boots DOS. > > > I know this. I was trying to make a comparasion with the first thing > that came to mind. If you can think of something better to compare Mac > OS 9 to, I'll be glad to hear it. > >> And WIn 3.1 does have memory protection; it's just not very good. > > > Not in Standard (286) mode. > Well all I know OS/9 for the 6809 was a REAL OS! I expect that APPLE just picked the same name for their OS. From ray at arachelian.com Sat Aug 5 15:52:49 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:52:49 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D4E947.9030800@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <200608051335.45703.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608051108290673.05BC750B@10.0.0.252> <44D4E947.9030800@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44D50521.3000806@arachelian.com> Don Y wrote: > I don;t let my machines talk to the outside world (this is the > easiest way for me to keep everything 100% secure with zero > effort on my part :> ) so if I cant use the MIPS, they get > wasted. :-( You obviously let at least one machine talk to the outside world, after all, how else are you reading and responding to this mailing list? :-) Yes, your LX does count as a machine, even if it's only running at 40Mhz. :-D I find a well secured openbsd box to be a nice secure firewall, NAT/router. I route my web traffic through a squid, that way I can catch any possible rogue applications trying to talk to outside machines over http, ftp, or smpt. Local firewalls on all the boxes help too. Esp. on windows where you get pop ups letting you know what's trying to talk to the outside world. > > I had inherited three Dell Precision 410MT's (dual Piii/600's) > and thought of replacing the LX and Classic that serve as my > routers with them. But, the size (tower-ish) and power > (not just $$$ but BTU's as well -- this is AZ so we don't > need any extra heat even in Winter!) differences between them > and the cute little SPARC boxes made this a no-brainer > decision. (I kept one of the Dells and donated the other > two to a local charity. In hindsight, perhaps I should > have lifted the memory out of them and flushed-up the one > that I kept :< ) Yup, for every watt of CPU power, you need another watt (or is it more?) to cool it. RAM is cheap these days, ~$100=1GB. So don't fret over the memory. There are machines I rarely power on at home for the same reason. They're too expensive to run, so I only power them when I need to. From ray at arachelian.com Sat Aug 5 16:08:01 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 17:08:01 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D4FD69.90500@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <44D4D4C2.7070800@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4DCB0.20305@arachelian.com> <44D4E6D1.2040907@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4EE8F.306@arachelian.com> <44D4FD69.90500@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44D508B1.501@arachelian.com> Don Y wrote: > Even luckier -- it *came* with it! ;-) Very lucky indeed! > I originally hoped to put it in the kitchen as a nice > little email box (but I have been overruled on that idea :< ) Yeah, wives are interesting creatures. :-) That's where I had mine for the longest time - the voyager, not the wife. :-) But two years ago, I found myself a decent job that provided a lovely thinkpad with a dock, so the Voyager went into the museum. Granted, they can do NFS, but these machines are already painfully slow to begin with. Anything you can add to speed them up helps. 1GB CF cards are cheap and fast these days, maybe you can go that route with a cheap PCMCIA<->CF cradle. You probably can't boot the voyager off a CF card, but, you can certainly store swap+/tmp and /home there. When I had the Voyager on the kitchen table I had two 128M CF cards in it, so that way swap was distributed across two drives. I don't recall whether the PCMCIA bus on these multi-tasks well enough to get a performance increase, but I hoped it did. :-D I got rid of most of my sparcs, but held on to a few interesting ones... For a short while, my house was "sparc-henge." > Thanks, I'll save the pointers in case I decide to bite the > bullet. > > Old Macs used SCSI. Did old apple laptops *also* use > SCSI drives? (i.e. might that be a source I can check out?) Yes, most of the early used use SCSI drives (Duo 230, PB145, etc). Some of the newer ones (5300ce), use IDE which makes life easier. It used to be that SCSI got you better performance, but of course modern 2.5" IDE drives are a lot faster than the older 2.5" SCSI drives used in these beasties. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Aug 5 16:22:17 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 16:22:17 -0500 Subject: Macs and PCs vs workstations Message-ID: <30a25e66f80541c79f3f77b309ee64bf@valleyimplants.com> I'll give you Suns, I wasn't thinking clearly. They started going downhill about 1998. HP-9000s are very good, also, but some of the bus architectures are starting to show their age. real IBM stuff is always nice, their big iron concepts seem to percolate down to the midrange RS6ks, and it shows. I managed to crash my Indigo2 once - don't try doing a bunch of things on the machine while patching the software. Nuff said. O2s low end. Should have been dropped in '99. Can't tell you how Octane would work with many disks on both controllers, since the onboard SCSI and network interface (as well as other OBIO) share the same PCI bus behind the XIO Bridge. On the Macs: PIDE is horrible for doing more than one thing at once. Period. NCQ SATA is much better, but still not up to the same level as SCSI or derivitives (FC et al). Reliability suffers, too. G5 is a good design, the 970FX is a good processor and the system layout is close to crossbar. I wish I had one. Unfortunately, that line is being discontinued and I don't think Intel has crossbar in anything lower than Xeon.] Not sure where the hang is in Mac SysX. It's somewhere in the Apple proprietary layers (Finder, Quartz...) Happens to me fairly often. I am well aware that Itanium II is pretty good. I believe I recall, though, that the sequence was Itanium1 (Intel's design) -> Last ship for VAX was 2000, last VAX-VMS was 7.3-1. Itanium II (HP bails them out). What will happen next? HP is getting out of processor design . . From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Aug 5 17:14:24 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 15:14:24 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D50521.3000806@arachelian.com> References: <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <200608051335.45703.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608051108290673.05BC750B@10.0.0.252> <44D4E947.9030800@DakotaCom.Net> <44D50521.3000806@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44D51840.2090002@DakotaCom.Net> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Don Y wrote: >> I don;t let my machines talk to the outside world (this is the >> easiest way for me to keep everything 100% secure with zero >> effort on my part :> ) so if I cant use the MIPS, they get >> wasted. :-( > You obviously let at least one machine talk to the outside world, after > all, how else are you reading and responding to this mailing list? :-) I have a few old laptops (~400MHz) that I use for odds and ends. This one does *just* email/WWW -- nothing else on the machine so if something "happens" to it, I can just reload (W98, in this case, with Firefox, TBird and Acrobat the only things installed other than the OS itself) everything and start over without losing anything. > Yes, your LX does count as a machine, even if it's only running at > 40Mhz. :-D LX routes traffic between two of the networks here (as well as serving fonts, DNS, etc. for the X terminals and other hosts). So, it runs 24/7/365 hence I want it to use the least amount of power possible :> > I find a well secured openbsd box to be a nice secure firewall, > NAT/router. I route my web traffic through a squid, that way I can > catch any possible rogue applications trying to talk to outside machines > over http, ftp, or smpt. Local firewalls on all the boxes help too. > Esp. on windows where you get pop ups letting you know what's trying to > talk to the outside world. But they all require maintenance. :> I can live without that level of connectivity for the time/effort it saves me! (If I need to move files in/out I FTP them to/from the laptop and let the laptop deal with actually getting them in/out). I guess it depends on where you want to spend your time. I use my machines mainly for "doing work" (CAD, EDA, software design, etc.) so I don't want to have to spend much time working *on* them (just like a carpenter doesn't want to have to "service" his hammer regularly :-/ ) >> I had inherited three Dell Precision 410MT's (dual Piii/600's) >> and thought of replacing the LX and Classic that serve as my >> routers with them. But, the size (tower-ish) and power >> (not just $$$ but BTU's as well -- this is AZ so we don't >> need any extra heat even in Winter!) differences between them >> and the cute little SPARC boxes made this a no-brainer >> decision. (I kept one of the Dells and donated the other >> two to a local charity. In hindsight, perhaps I should >> have lifted the memory out of them and flushed-up the one >> that I kept :< ) > > Yup, for every watt of CPU power, you need another watt (or is it more?) Well, "kinda" (but not really). Depends on your ambient conditions, etc. But there is no doubt that replacing a nice little LX or Classic with a dual Piii is a non-starter (given the uses I put it to). > to cool it. RAM is cheap these days, ~$100=1GB. So don't fret over the > memory. There are machines I rarely power on at home for the same > reason. They're too expensive to run, so I only power them when I need to. Exactly. I tossed my last Proliant 5500R (?) for exactly that reason. And the fan noise. :-( I think the next time I get my hands on a group of laptops, I'll probably invest the time setting them up for these jobs so I can just toss them in a desk drawer when not in use AND can live without all the excess BTU's! (a big win switching to a laptop for email, etc. since I no longer have to power up a big monitor just to read mail!) From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Aug 5 17:22:22 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 15:22:22 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D508B1.501@arachelian.com> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <44D4D4C2.7070800@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4DCB0.20305@arachelian.com> <44D4E6D1.2040907@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4EE8F.306@arachelian.com> <44D4FD69.90500@DakotaCom.Net> <44D508B1.501@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44D51A1E.1080107@DakotaCom.Net> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Don Y wrote: >> Even luckier -- it *came* with it! ;-) > Very lucky indeed! > >> I originally hoped to put it in the kitchen as a nice >> little email box (but I have been overruled on that idea :< ) > > Yeah, wives are interesting creatures. :-) That's where I had mine for > the longest time - the voyager, not the wife. :-) Amazing how a few computers meets with disdain... yet a closet full of *shoes* doesn't! :-/ (and shoes are so BORING! Hell, if it doesn't have blinkenlights, what good is it??) > But two years ago, I found myself a decent job that provided a lovely > thinkpad with a dock, so the Voyager went into the museum. Granted, > they can do NFS, but these machines are already painfully slow to begin Yup. I have mine on a small UPS so that I could dial out, etc. even if there's a power outage. But, we have so few outages here (and never any of more than 30 minute duration) *and* I now have laptops to throw at that problem so it's kind of just taking up space... :-( > with. Anything you can add to speed them up helps. 1GB CF cards are > cheap and fast these days, maybe you can go that route with a cheap > PCMCIA<->CF cradle. You probably can't boot the voyager off a CF card, > but, you can certainly store swap+/tmp and /home there. When I had the > Voyager on the kitchen table I had two 128M CF cards in it, so that way > swap was distributed across two drives. I don't recall whether the > PCMCIA bus on these multi-tasks well enough to get a performance > increase, but I hoped it did. :-D I had hoped NetBSD would eventually bring their support up to a level that would let me replace Solaris on that box (since NBSD seems pretty respectable on older SPARCs) but that hasn't yet happened. > I got rid of most of my sparcs, but held on to a few interesting > ones... For a short while, my house was "sparc-henge." Makes one wonder what sort of rituals took place on the equinox... >> Thanks, I'll save the pointers in case I decide to bite the >> bullet. >> >> Old Macs used SCSI. Did old apple laptops *also* use >> SCSI drives? (i.e. might that be a source I can check out?) > Yes, most of the early used use SCSI drives (Duo 230, PB145, etc). Some > of the newer ones (5300ce), use IDE which makes life easier. It used to > be that SCSI got you better performance, but of course modern 2.5" IDE > drives are a lot faster than the older 2.5" SCSI drives used in these > beasties. I will have to check my surplus sources and see what turns up. From ray at arachelian.com Sat Aug 5 17:52:53 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 18:52:53 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D51A1E.1080107@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <44D4D4C2.7070800@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4DCB0.20305@arachelian.com> <44D4E6D1.2040907@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4EE8F.306@arachelian.com> <44D4FD69.90500@DakotaCom.Net> <44D508B1.501@arachelian.com> <44D51A1E.1080107@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44D52145.8010102@arachelian.com> Don Y wrote: > Amazing how a few computers meets with disdain... yet a > closet full of *shoes* doesn't! :-/ > > (and shoes are so BORING! Hell, if it doesn't have blinkenlights, > what good is it??) Yeah, we all have our hobbies. > Yup. I have mine on a small UPS so that I could dial out, etc. > even if there's a power outage. But, we have so few outages > here (and never any of more than 30 minute duration) *and* > I now have laptops to throw at that problem so it's kind of > just taking up space... :-( And old laptops with somewhat weak batteries can be considered to have their own built in UPS's. :-) With a build in ethernet port, and two PC cards, you can create quite a nice router. Just set them up to not go to sleep when you close the lid, and you're set. > I had hoped NetBSD would eventually bring their support up to a > level that would let me replace Solaris on that box (since NBSD > seems pretty respectable on older SPARCs) but that hasn't yet > happened. > Yeah, the custom hardware is a bit difficult to find drivers for. >> I got rid of most of my sparcs, but held on to a few interesting >> ones... For a short while, my house was "sparc-henge." > > Makes one wonder what sort of rituals took place on the equinox... The pagan rites of solaris installations, running with diag-switch?=true and of course swapping parts. :-) And maybe sacrificing a 386 or two. >;-) just kidding. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 5 17:57:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 15:57:03 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D51840.2090002@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <200608051335.45703.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608051108290673.05BC750B@10.0.0.252> <44D4E947.9030800@DakotaCom.Net> <44D50521.3000806@arachelian.com> <44D51840.2090002@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200608051557030902.06C4A66D@10.0.0.252> On 8/5/2006 at 3:14 PM Don Y wrote: >But they all require maintenance. :> I can live without >that level of connectivity for the time/effort it saves me! >(If I need to move files in/out I FTP them to/from the >laptop and let the laptop deal with actually getting them >in/out). I must be be uncommonly lucky, then. I've not done a thing to my server for several years, except change the mail relay address when I changed hosting services. (It was just a name change--a quick edit). If I hear the BBC on the radio when I wake up in the morning, I know that everything's working. We don't get many power failures here (the substation is just about 1/2 mi down the road), but when we do, they're doozies lasting a day or more. I've got a big old Elgar UPS that the server's hung off of, with 4 deep-cycle marine batteries. It'll run the server for a few hours until I bestir myself and fire up the generator, which I need to do anyway if I want to use water (well) and eat food (refrigerator). OTOH, I don't know what sort of backup the telco "temple" has that's located on the southwest corner of my property. They've got a power line drop there, but I don't know if they've got backup. Supposedly, the setup has something like a 10,000 POTS pair capacity (that's what a lineman told me), so one would hope for some sort of second power source for the DSL connections. Cheers, Chuck . > I guess it depends on where you want to spend your >time. I use my machines mainly for "doing work" (CAD, EDA, >software design, etc.) so I don't want to have to spend much >time working *on* them (just like a carpenter doesn't want >to have to "service" his hammer regularly :-/ ) > >>> I had inherited three Dell Precision 410MT's (dual Piii/600's) >>> and thought of replacing the LX and Classic that serve as my >>> routers with them. But, the size (tower-ish) and power >>> (not just $$$ but BTU's as well -- this is AZ so we don't >>> need any extra heat even in Winter!) differences between them >>> and the cute little SPARC boxes made this a no-brainer >>> decision. (I kept one of the Dells and donated the other >>> two to a local charity. In hindsight, perhaps I should >>> have lifted the memory out of them and flushed-up the one >>> that I kept :< ) >> >> Yup, for every watt of CPU power, you need another watt (or is it more?) > >Well, "kinda" (but not really). Depends on your ambient >conditions, etc. But there is no doubt that replacing a >nice little LX or Classic with a dual Piii is a non-starter >(given the uses I put it to). > >> to cool it. RAM is cheap these days, ~$100=1GB. So don't fret over the >> memory. There are machines I rarely power on at home for the same >> reason. They're too expensive to run, so I only power them when I need >to. > >Exactly. I tossed my last Proliant 5500R (?) for exactly >that reason. And the fan noise. :-( > >I think the next time I get my hands on a group of laptops, >I'll probably invest the time setting them up for these jobs >so I can just toss them in a desk drawer when not in use >AND can live without all the excess BTU's! (a big win >switching to a laptop for email, etc. since I no longer >have to power up a big monitor just to read mail!) From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Aug 5 18:45:54 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:45:54 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608051557030902.06C4A66D@10.0.0.252> References: <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <200608051335.45703.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608051108290673.05BC750B@10.0.0.252> <44D4E947.9030800@DakotaCom.Net> <44D50521.3000806@arachelian.com> <44D51840.2090002@DakotaCom.Net> <200608051557030902.06C4A66D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D52DB2.5090204@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/5/2006 at 3:14 PM Don Y wrote: > >> But they all require maintenance. :> I can live without >> that level of connectivity for the time/effort it saves me! >> (If I need to move files in/out I FTP them to/from the >> laptop and let the laptop deal with actually getting them >> in/out). > > I must be be uncommonly lucky, then. I've not done a thing to my server > for several years, except change the mail relay address when I changed > hosting services. (It was just a name change--a quick edit). If I hear > the BBC on the radio when I wake up in the morning, I know that > everything's working. So no incoming pings, connection attempts, etc.? Gee, I see them all the time even on this dialup line. > We don't get many power failures here (the substation is just about 1/2 mi > down the road), but when we do, they're doozies lasting a day or more. > I've got a big old Elgar UPS that the server's hung off of, with 4 > deep-cycle marine batteries. It'll run the server for a few hours until I > bestir myself and fire up the generator, which I need to do anyway if I > want to use water (well) and eat food (refrigerator). When I last lived in Chicagoland, outages were fairly regular. I wonder if the apparent reliability here has more to do with the age of the infrastructure (no doubt 10 or 20 years newer, here) *or* the technologies used (e.g. we have below grade services here whereas chicagoland they were all on poles). The latter sure cuts down on outages caused by drunks slamming into telephone poles! :> > OTOH, I don't know what sort of backup the telco "temple" has that's > located on the southwest corner of my property. They've got a power line > drop there, but I don't know if they've got backup. Supposedly, the setup > has something like a 10,000 POTS pair capacity (that's what a lineman told > me), so one would hope for some sort of second power source for the DSL > connections. The CO runs off battery (though not for long :> ). The ones i have seen usually have a small jet turbine sitting in a shed out back that provides backup power. For a real trip, have a look at the room (usually below grade) where all the pairs come *in* to the office. And imagine what it would be like if that room was ever flooded, engulfed in fire, etc. Suddenly SLIC96's have lots of appeal! :> This room usually connects to another room (upstairs?) where all the pairs are flared out for easy access. The folks who work in that room get paid unreasonably well (given the UNcomplexity of their job duties!) but you know it has to drive them CRAZY in short order! From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Aug 5 18:51:10 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 16:51:10 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D52145.8010102@arachelian.com> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <44D4D4C2.7070800@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4DCB0.20305@arachelian.com> <44D4E6D1.2040907@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4EE8F.306@arachelian.com> <44D4FD69.90500@DakotaCom.Net> <44D508B1.501@arachelian.com> <44D51A1E.1080107@DakotaCom.Net> <44D52145.8010102@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44D52EEE.4050405@dakotacom.net> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Don Y wrote: >> Amazing how a few computers meets with disdain... yet a >> closet full of *shoes* doesn't! :-/ >> >> (and shoes are so BORING! Hell, if it doesn't have blinkenlights, >> what good is it??) > Yeah, we all have our hobbies. >> Yup. I have mine on a small UPS so that I could dial out, etc. >> even if there's a power outage. But, we have so few outages >> here (and never any of more than 30 minute duration) *and* >> I now have laptops to throw at that problem so it's kind of >> just taking up space... :-( > And old laptops with somewhat weak batteries can be considered to have > their own built in UPS's. :-) I've learned NOT to rely on that! :> But, a friend dropped off several hundred NiMH cells some time ago so I just rebuild the battery packs. Cosmetically not pretty but the machines will end up in the trash in short order anyways... > With a build in ethernet port, and two PC cards, you can create quite a > nice router. Just set them up > to not go to sleep when you close the lid, and you're set. I *should* look into that as they are probably even more energy efficient than the LX. But, often they have oddball I/O's that really are only addressed in the MS world. :-( >> I had hoped NetBSD would eventually bring their support up to a >> level that would let me replace Solaris on that box (since NBSD >> seems pretty respectable on older SPARCs) but that hasn't yet >> happened. > > Yeah, the custom hardware is a bit difficult to find drivers for. Exactly. Last time I checked (a few YEARS ago), there wasnt support for the CCFL's (the ides of leaving the display on 24/7 isn't appealing) >>> I got rid of most of my sparcs, but held on to a few interesting >>> ones... For a short while, my house was "sparc-henge." >> Makes one wonder what sort of rituals took place on the equinox... > > The pagan rites of solaris installations, running with diag-switch?=true > and of course swapping parts. :-) > And maybe sacrificing a 386 or two. >;-) With bits flying EVERYWHERE!! :> > just kidding. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 5 18:32:18 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 00:32:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D40879.5050502@gmail.com> from "Segin" at Aug 4, 6 10:54:49 pm Message-ID: > My bedroom is about 9' by 12'. I honestly have nowhere to put a PDP-11, > which would probably fall through the floor anyways (I live in a trailer). Well, there are big PDP11s, like the 1145 I have in 2 6' racks. And there are small PDP11s. A BN23 cabinet is not much larger than a tower PC. A BA11V is about the size of 2 laptops stacked up (but it rather restricts you on what CPU board you can have, and you only have a total of 4 slots). And a Professional 300 series machine has a PDP11 CPU chipset inside, albeit with a strange I/O bus. And that's about the size of a PC/AT box So you probably could accomodate a PDP11 if you needed to. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 5 18:34:16 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 00:34:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> from "Don Y" at Aug 4, 6 08:15:18 pm Message-ID: > > Segin wrote: > > I wouldn't say "emotionally attached" myself, since I exibit no > > emotional response to... well, anything! I like old hardware, mainly > > cause it's more dependable than today's workstations and desktops. Why? > > Because companies actually put thought into creating parts that were > > durable back then. Compare it to cars (my favorite analogy against > > computers), A 1969 Ford Mustang is usually more durable, dependable, and > > will survive a crash with substantally less damage than, say, a 2005 Kia > > Optima or Saab xB. > > Sure. But the PASSENGERS will have substantially MORE damage than > those in that 2005 vehicle... Who the blazes cares about that. My experience is that people heel a lot quicker than the time it takes to repair a car. And having had to do major bodywork repairs for what should have been what you'd call a 'fender bender', I am half-convinced that all the safety features in modern cars are just a way to sell more and more expensive replacement parts. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 5 18:39:31 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 00:39:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D433C3.90106@DakotaCom.Net> from "Don Y" at Aug 4, 6 10:59:31 pm Message-ID: > > Segin wrote: > > They're only humans. We got 6 and a half billion on this planet, losing > > one or two doesn't really make a difference. > > And how many *computers* do we have? Losing one or two doesn't > really make a difference... :> Well, in the case of some of the classics I've worked on, the total number of known examples can be counted on the fingers of one hand -- in unary. The total number of classic computer enthusiasts well exceeds that number. Anyway, how often does a classic computer failure (unlike a car crash) resulted in death or serious injury to the user? > And a modern drive has an MTBF of, what, 500,000 to 1,000,000 hours?! > :> I've always found this to be somewhat misleading. If a modern drive runs for 10^6 hours, and then fails in a way that I can't repair it, is it really better than an old drive that runs for a hundredth of the time, but then just needs a common, easy-to-get component replaced? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 5 18:49:40 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 00:49:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608051326.17490.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Aug 5, 6 01:26:17 pm Message-ID: > > On Saturday 05 August 2006 02:34 am, Segin wrote: > > Well, I've owned a Mac Plus 1MB and a Mac SE/30 before, but they got > > dumpstered after stuff started falling apart. Literally. I opened up the > > Plus only to find that the CPU has literally *disintegrated*. A lot of > > the capacitors and resistors were lying on the mobo cause their sodder > > has worn away... > > I've been a tech for coming up on four decades now, most of that time having > my hands inside of the hardware of one sort or another, and the earlier > stuff had vacuum tubes in it, on up to current technology. > > And I've *never* seen anything like what you describe here, or heard of such > a thing either. FWIW, nor have I (and I've been working on equipment of similar age too). I am told the modern lead-free solders can have reliability problems, certainly if misused, but AFAIK all older Macs were assembled with normal lead/tin solder. I;'ve got a couple of Mac+ machines. One has a low-emission CRT, the other hand the well-known problem on the yoke connector. Neither has had any problems with the digital side. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 5 18:26:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 00:26:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <200608050005.k7505dq5043235@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Aug 4, 6 07:05:40 pm Message-ID: > > > I know how the CPU works and runs everything > > > , in theory, but I can't program in machine > > > language yet. > > > As for how the CPU and everything else works > > > physically, I don't really know anything, but > > > > There are, unfortunaely, very few books that > > actually explain how the CPU > > works. Most introductory hardware books explain > > things like the AND and > > OR gats and flip-flops (don't worry if these terms > > mean nothing to you, > > they're just the basic building blocks of computer > > circuits), and then > > tell you the CPU exists. It's almost as if the CPU > > runs on some kind of > > magic. > > > > Hehe... abracadrabra. All I can say is that it's a wonderful feeling when you finally understand how a CPU works at this level. All the magic has gone away, everything makes sense again. > > > I can assure you that it doesn't, and that many > > older, simpler CPUs are > > understandable at the gate level (or even the > > transistor level). > > > > I know how _I_ learnt this stuff. I had already > > understood how to use > > gates, flip-flops, etc. I mamaged to get the servi > ce > > manuals for an old > > minicomputer, and I sat down for a couple of > > _months_ until I understood > > it all. Of course back then there was no classiccm > p > > list, I didn't have > > anyone to ask. I was very much on my own. > > > > Perhaps there are service manuals for the > Amiga?? There are, but I am not sure they're available on the web. That said, I doubt they'll be much use here. I've never seen a service manual for any computer that really documents what goes on iside complex (LSI) chips. They'll descibe the pin connectors, the signals on those pins, and often any internal registers you can program to control the chip. But that's it. You will not get a gate level description. The old minicomputers I refered to had a processor made up of lots of simple, small chips (my PDP11/45 has over 1000 chips in the CPU, and a few hundred in the floating point processor). Each chip is just a few gates or flip-flops (and thus the data sheet on such a chip really does fully describe it). So you really can understand how this CPU works at a very low level. It takes a lot of time to work through the schematics, though. > > I know I wanted to get my hands on the Amiga > RKRM's (Rom Kernel Reference Manuals), but > they will be hard to find in paper form. I have one of the official Amiga manials, on hardware. It gives pinouts and descriptions of the custom chips, and has been very useful in tracing faults. But there is (as expected) no real internal description of the ICs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 5 18:53:23 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 00:53:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D4D790.2050508@gmail.com> from "Segin" at Aug 5, 6 01:38:24 pm Message-ID: > You think YOU are suprised? Well, if you were to have open up a system > to find the CPU in fragments, and between the fragments be a dust Do you mean the CPU chip, the PCB substrate, or what? [...] > a Arkanoid disk (duct tape over the floppy HD hole, anyone? Instant 800k > disk!) Oh not _again_. There is a real difference between DD and HD disks. The coercivity of the media _is_ different. Sure, for 3.5" disks it's close, and may work in most cases, but none-the-less I am not going to risk my data that way... The cost of a the media is a lot less than my time in recreating said data (or even restoring it from a backup). -tony From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 5 19:04:59 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 20:04:59 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D4DF92.7000206@arachelian.com> References: <200608051335.45703.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D4DF92.7000206@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200608052004.59783.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 05 August 2006 02:12 pm, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Speaking of big old clunky drives, I have a couple of those around here > > that I have no use for -- they're 5.25" FH, SCSI, and I'm told around a > > gig each. There are some terminators and such on one that aren't on the > > other, and of course the jumpering is different (but there _are_ > > jumpers). Anybody interested in taking these off my hands? Please? > > Feel free to contact me offlist... > > If you have any dead ones, they are great if you teach computer > classes. You can take'em apart and passe'm around opened, since the > parts are quite big, it's easy to point them out. :-) Either that, or > um, hang'em on a wall as art? :-) That said, they do have some rather > interesting magnets inside of them. I have *way* too much electronic junk as it is, and was hoping that someone else might be interested in those drives in particular... > > Indeed. I am currently using (and sending this stuff through) a > > 486dx2/66 for a firewall/router. And when I get done with that one for > > whatever reason I have plenty more similar hardware to "use up" before I > > move on to the Pentium-class hardware, of which I also have plenty. > > They do have plenty of CPU power to act as NAT/firewall routers, but if > you want to run ssh, you'll find them a bit on the slow side. I SSH _to_ that box but that's about it. > The 500Mhz PIII I replaced my P1 with now also runs a squid proxy and an > adblocker as well. Squid was one thing that I know of that might prompt me to upgrade a bit sooner, as it'd cache stuff. I only have an adblock plugin in firefox but that seems to do the job just fine. > Soon as you rely on any encryption, especially if any part of that does a > public key exchange, 486's and P100's are very very slow. Things like > blowfish and RC40 work fine though. I'm just starting to look into that stuff, but would that box need to actually process any of that stuff? > The problem with storing old hardware though is that you'll have to > replace dead capacitors as they dry up, etc. You won't have problems > with 486's, but anything over 15 years old might have issues there. > Things over 20 years of age certainly. I have a LOT of capacitors on hand, too. > > A P-III is "an aging machine"? I guess I'm still *way* behind the times, > > then... The "workstation" I'm typing this on is a Celeron 366 (though I > > have a few faster boxes on hand that I really do need to get into the > > picture here when I can stop *using* it long enough to do some upgrades > > :-) and the "server" here is a K6-200... > > Relatively to other hardware, yes. :-) Depends on what you want to do. > A low end machine can work just fine as a file server, DNS, DHCP, > router, firewall because those are I/O bound. So there's little > difference between a 486 and a PIII at DSL/cable modem speeds. Any more > and you'll need something a bit more beefy. Database applications, maybe? That sure seems to want to soak up resources from what I've read. > > Got a couple of P-II boards around, but no P-III -- and isn't that the > > one where they introduced the processor serial number? > > I think so yeah, the bastards. At least they also gave us a random > number generator too. I mentioned the somewhat faster machines above. One's a Celeron 566, one's a K6-500, and then there's this Athlon something-or-other that's sitting here waiting for me to get around to firing it up. That'll probably be the replacement for this workstation, one of those other two will probably replace the P60 that's currently the w98 box (and become a dual-boot system in the process), and I can stick one of the P-II boards (probably a 450) in to the server position. If I ever get around to it. > > I still don't intend to throw 'em out until they're all used up. :-) > > Yeah, I got a few old boxen here too. I need to figure out a use for > the old P100. I have a whole bunch of stuff in that speed range, there are at least a couple or 3 120s, and some other stuff close to it. Socket 7, I think, some in AT, some in ATX format (which I don't have enough cases for). > I do have a 486 and a 386 somewhere in the closet too. Got those, a whole box of several 486 machines I pulled apart a while back (which came in handy after I trashed a video card by hitting that option connector with a drive power plug which has since been positioned better), a couple of low-profile 386 boxes, a low-profile 486 box, at least a few 286 boards, and even some 8088 stuff. > I think I have some ancient 8 port serial card somewhere that's ISA, or > perhaps I can use it with a catweasel as a data transfer machine with > 5.25" floppies or such. Got a bunch of ISA cards, too, including sound, multi-I/O, one of those Jameco (?) dual floppy interface cards w/ BIOS (lets you put pretty much anything into an XT-class machine), stuff to interface those real early CD drives that aren't AT, and I forget what else. Anybody finding that they need some bit or other of this is welcome to contact me offlist. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From spc at conman.org Sat Aug 5 19:06:27 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 20:06:27 -0400 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <44D43E2F.8060107@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200608042334270615.03410D07@10.0.0.252> <44D43E2F.8060107@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <20060806000627.GA21469@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Don Y once stated: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >On 8/4/2006 at 9:56 PM Scott Quinn wrote: > > > >>Microkernels are neat in theory, but a well-trimmed monolithic kernel > >seems to do pretty well with not too much space. > > > >Let me try that again. NT 3.51 and earlier had the video drivers outside > >of kernel mode. When 4.0 brought them in as kernel mode, things got quite > >a bit faster. > > Of course! Each time you have to cross a protection domain > you take a performance hit. There's no free lunch. Ten years ago I remember one of the owners of Metrolink (who implemented and sold commecial X servers) said that the *fastest* X server they sold ran under QNX, a microkernel. > And it makes things so much easier to "load balance" in a > multiprocessor design since you just move the thread to > a different processor and let the magic do its thing > (at a nontrivial cost, unfortunately). I also worked at a software company porting Unix utilities to QNX and I really like QNX and what can be done with it. I could use the modem on my boss' computer to dial out without using *any* special software, just specify the device on his computer (not only was the file system network transparent, but you could use devices across the network). You could even run a program on one computer, pipe the output to another program on another computer and send the output to a third computer, all from the command line, and all possible because QNX was built on a microkernel and had all this functionality built in. -spc (And the kernel on a Pentium based machine was only 8K in size ... yes, 8192 bytes in size ... ) From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 5 19:06:19 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 20:06:19 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608051117200045.05C48CCF@10.0.0.252> References: <200608051326.17490.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608051117200045.05C48CCF@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608052006.19223.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 05 August 2006 02:17 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/5/2006 at 1:26 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >I've been a tech for coming up on four decades now, most of that time > >having my hands inside of the hardware of one sort or another, and the > > earlier stuff had vacuum tubes in it, on up to current technology. > > > >And I've *never* seen anything like what you describe here, or heard of > > such a thing either. > > I've seen something close to it--an old PC stored in a garage next to a > leaking jug of muriatic acid. Most of the copper turned to green dust, but > the packages (ceramic and plastic) were fine. The zinc plating on the > chassis was gone and the steel underneath was nearly rusted through in > places. The concrete floor also took a hit. I've heard some similar stories about that stuff, too, now that you mention it... Sometimes it's amazing what people will end up storing in their garages, especially in situations where all sorts of stuff has been collecting for ages. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Aug 5 19:15:24 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 17:15:24 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D5349C.8010405@dakotacom.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> Segin wrote: >>> I wouldn't say "emotionally attached" myself, since I exibit no >>> emotional response to... well, anything! I like old hardware, mainly >>> cause it's more dependable than today's workstations and desktops. Why? >>> Because companies actually put thought into creating parts that were >>> durable back then. Compare it to cars (my favorite analogy against >>> computers), A 1969 Ford Mustang is usually more durable, dependable, and >>> will survive a crash with substantally less damage than, say, a 2005 Kia >>> Optima or Saab xB. >> Sure. But the PASSENGERS will have substantially MORE damage than >> those in that 2005 vehicle... > > Who the blazes cares about that. My experience is that people heel a lot > quicker than the time it takes to repair a car. And having had to do > major bodywork repairs for what should have been what you'd call a > 'fender bender', I am half-convinced that all the safety features in > modern cars are just a way to sell more and more expensive replacement parts. You've missed the point. *Manufacturers* care about the occupants and, thus, have spent their energies (regardless as to whether or not is the *right* thing to do) making crashes more survivable. Almost always, this comes at the expense of making the car take the punishment, instead. (which is why today's vehicles don't survive crashes as well as older vehicles -- the original poster's point) From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Aug 5 19:21:11 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 01:21:11 +0100 Subject: New to the list References: Message-ID: <001401c6b8ee$38c06d20$0200a8c0@p2deskto> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" > > My bedroom is about 9' by 12'. I honestly have nowhere to put a PDP-11, > > which would probably fall through the floor anyways (I live in a trailer). > > Well, there are big PDP11s, like the 1145 I have in 2 6' racks. And there > are small PDP11s. A BN23 cabinet is not much larger than a tower PC. A > BA11V is about the size of 2 laptops stacked up (but it rather restricts > you on what CPU board you can have, and you only have a total of 4 slots). > > And a Professional 300 series machine has a PDP11 CPU chipset inside, > albeit with a strange I/O bus. And that's about the size of a PC/AT box > > So you probably could accomodate a PDP11 if you needed to. > > -tony > If you use one of the smaller backplanes, you can get an 11/23+ ( /73, /83 etc)into a old desktop PC case (use RQDX3 and an RD drive, along with an OEM power supply). The worst you'll have to do is make up an RQDX3 to drive cable (no space for the interconnect board). You'll also need to build a watchdog module, but that's only a dozen or so parts. Jim. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 5 19:29:07 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 17:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Truth (was: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060805171532.V80255@shell.lmi.net> Tony Duell wrote: > tell you the CPU exists. It's almost as if the CPU runs on some kind of > magic. > I can assure you that it doesn't, and that many older, simpler CPUs are > understandable at the gate level (or even the transistor level). Tony is just pulling your leg. Some sort of newbie hazing? The reality is that the CPU runs on compressed magic smoke. Proof of that is that during some kinds of electrical problems, the magic smoke can leak out, and it never works quite right after the magic smoke leaks out. BTW, the last time that I saw a missing CPU, and resistors and capacitators lying around loose, it was because the previous owner had been practicing de-soldering. After finding a CPU, and reconnecting everything, the machine worked. BTW2, the biggest appeal (AND reason to hate) 386 level machines, is that they are the oldest, slowest, and simplest machines that are instruction set compatible with most of the modern software. It is fun to watch Windoze run on a 386. Kinda like turning the crankshaft of a partially disassembled engine, and watching the interrelationships of the parts moving. Watching it in "slow motion" is a good way to find portions of the code that need to be optimized. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Aug 5 19:35:30 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 17:35:30 -0700 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <20060806000627.GA21469@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <200608042334270615.03410D07@10.0.0.252> <44D43E2F.8060107@DakotaCom.Net> <20060806000627.GA21469@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <44D53952.30405@DakotaCom.Net> Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Don Y once stated: > >> And it makes things so much easier to "load balance" in a >> multiprocessor design since you just move the thread to >> a different processor and let the magic do its thing >> (at a nontrivial cost, unfortunately). > > I also worked at a software company porting Unix utilities to QNX and I > really like QNX and what can be done with it. I could use the modem on my > boss' computer to dial out without using *any* special software, just > specify the device on his computer (not only was the file system network > transparent, but you could use devices across the network). You could even > run a program on one computer, pipe the output to another program on another > computer and send the output to a third computer, all from the command line, > and all possible because QNX was built on a microkernel and had all this > functionality built in. Exactly. Things are inherently "decomposed" so all you need is a name service that lets you tag resources ("objects") and an RPC protocol that extends the local messaging and you "magically" have a distributed system. By extension, you can move key threads from one machine to another depending on how where its I/Os will be located and what percentage of it's work is CPU bound vs. communication bound. Sure, you can do the same in a monolithic kernel. But you have to *add* structure to it to provide these features and flexibility. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Aug 5 19:46:05 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 17:46:05 -0700 Subject: Truth In-Reply-To: <20060805171532.V80255@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060805171532.V80255@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <44D53BCD.5030502@dakotacom.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > BTW2, the biggest appeal (AND reason to hate) 386 level machines, > is that they are the oldest, slowest, and simplest machines that > are instruction set compatible with most of the modern software. > It is fun to watch Windoze run on a 386. Kinda like turning the > crankshaft of a partially disassembled engine, and watching the > interrelationships of the parts moving. Watching it in "slow > motion" is a good way to find portions of the code that need to > be optimized. Even more interesting is to see all the races/hazards in the implementation -- and applications. I.e. if you can click on "Exit" and have enough time to move your mouse to click on something else, like "Edit | Preferences" and then watch the confusion that often results... Ooops! From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 5 19:58:24 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 20:58:24 -0400 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <44D47B88.8040909@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44D53EB0.2090907@neurotica.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Yes. MacOS "Classic" needs to die, die, die. > > You going to be the one to get companies like Apple to port all the > Classic apps that haven't been updated in half of forever (i.e. still > 68k)? Some of us have applications that there is no modern equivalent > of. Sadly the solution needs to be a well integrated 3rd party emulator > for the newer systems :^( Well it's not like your Mac is going to just stop working anytime soon. If you really need Classic-only apps, you could even pick up an old 7600/8600/9600-ish machine to dedicate to them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 5 20:01:14 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 21:01:14 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608051335.45703.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <200608051335.45703.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44D53F5A.60000@neurotica.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> I replaced this with another aging machine - a PIII running at 500Mhz, >> which only uses 100Watts more - but I can certainly get a lot more out >> of it. So that old machine certainly cost me more to run than the new >> one in terms of performance for electricity used. I certainly don't >> need a 2Ghz AMD64 with 4GB of RAM for use as a router. Today. In 5 >> years from now, my desktop will be very likely be my router. > > A P-III is "an aging machine"? Welcome to the PC world...where something becomes obsolete just because something newer starts shipping! Remember what P.T. Barnum said about suckers being born every minute? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Aug 5 20:01:32 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 18:01:32 -0700 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <44D53EB0.2090907@neurotica.com> References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <44D47B88.8040909@neurotica.com> <44D53EB0.2090907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44D53F6C.2040807@dakotacom.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> Yes. MacOS "Classic" needs to die, die, die. >> >> You going to be the one to get companies like Apple to port all the >> Classic apps that haven't been updated in half of forever (i.e. still >> 68k)? Some of us have applications that there is no modern equivalent >> of. Sadly the solution needs to be a well integrated 3rd party >> emulator for the newer systems :^( > > Well it's not like your Mac is going to just stop working anytime > soon. If you really need Classic-only apps, you could even pick up an > old 7600/8600/9600-ish machine to dedicate to them. Speaking of Macs... I've inherited a beige G3 (?) and an 840AV (?). Any suggestions as to what I should install on them? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 5 20:03:06 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 18:03:06 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D52DB2.5090204@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <200608051335.45703.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608051108290673.05BC750B@10.0.0.252> <44D4E947.9030800@DakotaCom.Net> <44D50521.3000806@arachelian.com> <44D51840.2090002@DakotaCom.Net> <200608051557030902.06C4A66D@10.0.0.252> <44D52DB2.5090204@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200608051803060709.07380B75@10.0.0.252> On 8/5/2006 at 4:45 PM Don Y wrote: >So no incoming pings, connection attempts, etc.? Gee, I >see them all the time even on this dialup line. No pingback from the server, although I don't know how to turn it off on the modem (I wish). All ports are closed. I can't telnet,ftp, etc. in from outside the local net. >The CO runs off battery (though not for long :> ). >The ones i have seen usually have a small jet turbine >sitting in a shed out back that provides backup power. Oh, I'm about 9 wire miles from the CO; the "temple" is a fiber terminal. Since it's only about 400 feet away, I get really good DSL. One odd thing hanging off the side of one of the big boxes is round and about the size of a hatbox. I imagine it must be for cooling, but I'm not sure. If I ever have any line problems during weekday work hours, I usually only have to hike down to the temple and ask the guy who always seems to be working there about it. I keep the poison oak and yellowjacket nests cleared away for the telco folks and they seem to appreciate it. It's actually pretty pleasant--out in the country and under a big oak tree. >This room usually connects to another room (upstairs?) >where all the pairs are flared out for easy access. >The folks who work in that room get paid unreasonably >well (given the UNcomplexity of their job duties!) >but you know it has to drive them CRAZY in short order! One can only wonder about the cost of a foot of copper trunk line with today's metals prices. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 5 20:04:31 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 21:04:31 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D4D2A6.1010007@gmail.com> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <44D4D2A6.1010007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44D5401F.8070609@neurotica.com> Segin wrote: \>> A few of the ancient x86 line have some historical value. The 1st IBM >> PC, the Jr, the 1st laptops, the 1st portable PC, and so on are >> collectibles because they are the 1st of something. But a generic white >> box 386, meh. >> > That's true, but you gotta play with the cards dealt to you. That is, I > don't have a SPARC or a old Sun 3 or a VAX, ... That's a cop-out. Send me your shipping address in private email. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 5 20:08:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 18:08:26 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608052006.19223.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608051326.17490.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608051117200045.05C48CCF@10.0.0.252> <200608052006.19223.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608051808260281.073CEBBD@10.0.0.252> On 8/5/2006 at 8:06 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Sometimes it's amazing what people will end up storing in their garages, >especially in situations where all sorts of stuff has been collecting for >ages. Muriatic acid is probably good for keeping mice away. But nothing quite beats a gallon can of contact cement whose bottom has long rusted away--although shellac can get pretty sticky too. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Aug 5 20:13:25 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 18:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic Mac OS was Re: Microkernels was Re: New to the list. In-Reply-To: <44D53EB0.2090907@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Aug 5, 6 08:58:24 pm" Message-ID: <200608060113.k761DPZN011188@floodgap.com> > Well it's not like your Mac is going to just stop working anytime > soon. If you really need Classic-only apps, you could even pick up an > old 7600/8600/9600-ish machine to dedicate to them. Yes, but the old "get a separate computer just to run something specific" solution gets annoying after awhile. My dual G4 is permanently OS 9 to run the apps Classic won't, but there's something to be said for Classic's integration into OS X (which, considering the graftwork necessary, is pretty good). That's why I bought a quad G5, instead of waiting for the Mac Pro -- I still need Classic, and all my apps are PPC anyway. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There's an old proverb that says just about whatever you want it to. ------- From spc at conman.org Sat Aug 5 20:21:33 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 21:21:33 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608052004.59783.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608051335.45703.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D4DF92.7000206@arachelian.com> <200608052004.59783.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20060806012133.GB21469@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Roy J. Tellason once stated: > > > > Indeed. I am currently using (and sending this stuff through) a > > > 486dx2/66 for a firewall/router. And when I get done with that one for > > > whatever reason I have plenty more similar hardware to "use up" before I > > > move on to the Pentium-class hardware, of which I also have plenty. > > > > They do have plenty of CPU power to act as NAT/firewall routers, but if > > you want to run ssh, you'll find them a bit on the slow side. > > I SSH _to_ that box but that's about it. > > > The 500Mhz PIII I replaced my P1 with now also runs a squid proxy and an > > adblocker as well. > > Squid was one thing that I know of that might prompt me to upgrade a bit > sooner, as it'd cache stuff. I only have an adblock plugin in firefox but > that seems to do the job just fine. I have a 486DX2/66 that's my firewall/NAT system and it also runs Squid (and I can SSH into it, but the initial login is a bit sluggish). Runs great. I also used a 486 as a webserver until a few years ago. Had an uptime of 444 days when I shut it down for the last time. -spc (Ran Linux by the way ... ) From ray at arachelian.com Sat Aug 5 20:49:06 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 21:49:06 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D54A92.7030208@arachelian.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Hehe... abracadrabra. >> > > All I can say is that it's a wonderful feeling when you finally > understand how a CPU works at this level. All the magic has gone away, > everything makes sense again. > Yeah, CPU's are really very simple. Here's my half drunken rant about them. Skip this if you know how CPU's work. :-) Basically, CPU's fetch opcodes (instructions) and data, then decode said instruction, execute them, and increment their Program Counter register (or change it to a new value), and repeat. The ones with microcode (or RISC) are easiest to understand, although you don't get to see the microcode. They all are pretty much similar in that they have a register called PC (or IR) that point to the currently executing opcode. RISC ones and microcoded ones use the bits in the opcode to turn on circuits that do what the opcode says. With some CPU's you can almost "see" the circuitry that does this by looking at the opcode tables. Granted, they can be complex if you're dealing with x86, but even so, if you were able to see what the x86 ones really do underneath the the layer that's masked, each piece is simple. It's just that there are many, many, many pieces, which make for a complex device. The hard part of assembly language is that it's too simple: each opcode does something so tiny, that it's hard to see how to program in it. Once you figure this part out and get over it, it becomes easier. So you can imagine a very simple machine like this: A CPU is hooked up to a bunch of memory. The memory is addressable linearly (on most CPU's) and some of it is ROM because RAM loses it's data on power off. The CPU has a register called the Program Counter (or PC.) When you power this machine on, it sets the PC to a specific value, and starts executing code. The PC is usually automatically incremented (that is made to point to the next instruction each time, after it fetches an instruction.) CPU's have a bunch of other registers that they use to do work with. In CISC CPU's (complex instruction set computers) you see very few registers, which makes them inefficient. RISC CPU's (Reduced Instruction Set Computers) typically have very few instructions (except for PowerPC) and a lot of registers. Some do lots of fancy tricks with their registers (SPARC for instances uses register windows.) CISC CPU's normally don't execute the opcode they fetched directly. Instead, they have a built in ROM containing code called microcode. You can think of RISC chips as having the microcode as their native language (although this isn't exactly true, it's a good analogy.) Registers are simply set of flipflops (for example a 64 bit register has 64 flipflops - one per bit) that make up a single variable, and they're used for calculations, indexes, status, and so forth. To execute, it fetches a single instruction from memory, then does what that instruction says. Some CPU's use a fixed size opcode, this means that every instruction (opcode) is the same size. The opcode also contains information on what is being accessed: a source register and a destination register are typical, although some will have addressing modes, or memory addresses inside the opcode. The opcode and its operands (the information that says which registers to work on), are typically stored in special registers inside the CPU that aren't accessible. On microcoded CPU's there are also registers that point to the memory bus that say what address should be accessed. Typically the bits inside the instruction (microcode or RISC opcode) light up various circuits in the CPU. For example, an opcode that does an addition will turn on the circuits in the Arithmetic (and) Logical Unit that enable an ADD to occur, and they'll also load the two inputs and one output register. In a lot of CPU's the output register is one of the inputs. Other instructions can light up the barrel shifter, which can do bit rotates, or shifts in either directions. Other instructions can light up circuits that fetch or store data from memory, or copy registers from each other and so forth, access the arithmetic & logical unit (ALU), or floating point unit (FPU), vector unit (AltiVec for example), etc. In more modern CPU's, you typically have multiple instructions in flight. This is because the fetch, decode, execute cycle (which can be split up into even finer stages) would only keep one circuit light up at one time. So in order to be more efficient, you can have one instruction in the fetch stage, another in the decode stage, and another in the execute stage. More modern CPU's have several FPU's, ALU's, vector units, and can issue several instructions at the same time to each if the compiler did a good job of scheduling them. Even more fun, CPU's are far far faster than the memory they're attached to because this memory is dynamic RAM which is cheaper, but slower. You could use static RAM or SRAM, but this is far more expensive. 99% of the time when the CPU reads from address X, it will read from X+1 next, then X+2, then X+3, and so forth. Because of this you can predict the next memory access, so you can actually use some SRAM to pre-fetch a lot of the memory. This is called caching, and it can get very complicated if you want it to be effective. Modern CPU's actually consist of two CPU cores. These typically share their cache, so that you don't have inconsistencies, but for multithreaded code, these run your programs a lot faster. If all you're going to run is one application at one time, you won't see a difference, but if you run multithreaded code, or many applications/services at once, you will notice the difference. The above is not all very exciting, since we need to add some way to interact with the machine, which means I/O. Some CPU's have special I/O opcodes, others use the memory bus to map I/O devices as if they were memory. Since computers are thousands to billions of times faster than humans, it doesn't make sense for them to waste their power checking to see whether the end user pressed a key. You could program them to periodically check to see if a key is pressed - that's called polled I/O, but it's very inefficient. Instead, I/O devices have a way to signal the CPU. These are called interrupts, and there's typically several of them - one per device, although in some systems, IRQ's (Interrupt ReQuests) are shared, and then the CPU has to poll all the devices tied to that IRQ number to figure out which one to deal with. IRQ's are just signals. Just like you, in real life have to stop what you're doing when the phone rings and answer it, or the door bell, or an alarm clock, the CPU does exactly this. It save it's state on the stack, handles whatever device needs to be dealt with and then reloads its state from the stack and resumes the job it was working on. IRQ's have priorities. For example, if the phone rings at the same time the smoke alarm goes off because you left something on the stove too long, you need to handle the stove before you deal with the phone. So does the CPU. Some devices are more critical than others in that they're time sensitive. So they have a higher priority than others. When the CPU is taking care of an important task, it can choose to ignore interrupts. This is sort of like you shutting off your phone and doing work. Of course, some interrupts are non-maskable interrupts (NMI's). For example - the smoke alarm. There are other things that happen inside a computer that can be optimized. For instance, say a network packet comes in. In that case, an interrupt is generated, but because the CPU can only deal with one unit at a time - typically a byte, or word, it has to sit there and grab 1540 bytes, one at a time off the I/O bus and copy it into memory. This is of course inefficient. So more advanced devices have something called Direct Memory Access. They can transfer their data to memory without bothering the CPU - until the transfer is done. I mentioned something called the stack. This is simply a bunch of memory that's accessed last-in-first-out or LIFO. There's a special register called the Stack Pointer or SP. The stack grows downwards. That is it starts at some high address, and as data is pushed onto the stack, the SP gets decremented by 4 on a 32 bit machine, or 8 on a 64 bit machine. When data is popped (aka pulled) from the stack, it gets incremented. When an interrupt is triggered, the current state is saved to the stack by pushing the critical registers to the stack. These are usually the status register, the PC, and perhaps other registers. When the Interrupt Service Routine (ISR) - which is a bit of code that's part of the operating system or part of that device drive is done, the state is restored by being popped off the stack The stack is also what allows you to have functions that call other functions. SPARC CPU's do wonderful things with their registers for function calls - they use a set of registers called register windows. Remember when earlier on, I said that access to memory is a lot slower than the CPU? SPARC's take advantage of this by rotating some of their registers. In one function a set of registers that are labeled as "out" are used as parameters to the next function call. When the function is called, these "out" registers become that called function's "in" registers. This prevents them from being written to the stack, and then pulled off the stack, thus speeding things up a lot. If you trace code with a debugger, you'll see that function calls are very expensive! When you have, say 2 CPU's in your machine, say each one running at 1GHz, you don't really get the equivalent of a 2GHz's CPU. It's more like a 1.5-1.8GHz machine. This is because the CPU's have to fight over the various busses (memory, I/O) to get access to resources, and some resources aren't safely able to be accessed by two CPU's at once, so semaphores - or locks are needed to prevent data corruption or cache coherency issues. Dual core CPU's sort of alleviate some, but not most of these issues, because they're at least able to share their caches. Since I've digressed to modern CPU's: So things like Intel chips (and AMD, and Transmeta chips) have to waste a lot of circuitry to deal with backwards compatibility to the 8080 CPU. Because of this, they tend to be a lot more inefficient than the competition, even though they're a lot more popular. Even with the introduction of 32 bit CPU's, Intel and their clones have a limited set of registers. Remember that access to a register is a lot faster than to memory! So the more registers that you have and can efficiently make use of, the faster your code runs. In order to battle this, Intel chips have to do some insane stuff like register aliasing, which basically knows that a register, say EAX in the pipeline will get reused elsewhere, so it can be assigned to one internal register, and that another later on in the pipeline where EAX is reused can be assigned to another internal register, and all that code can be executed at the same time. Transmeta did something more interesting. They actually had something like a 128 bit or 64 bit RISC CPU whose microcode was programmed to decode, and recompile intel code into an internal format that would run much faster - well, in theory anyway. This is exactly the same was as Java's modern JIT (Just in time compiler) JVM's work. They translate one set of instructions into another (hence the name TransMeta?) Because of the overhead in Intel chips for backwards compatibility, pure RISC chips such as SPARC, ARM, HP-PA are a lot faster, and run cooler. They don't need all the overhead of backwards compatibility. Intel tried to get away from this mess with Itanium, but it didn't work out too well since AMD extended the IA32 (Intel Architecture, 32 bit) instruction set to 64 bits and won some momentum, so they had to do the same. Sad that. I don't recall exactly, but I believe Itanium had elements from HPPA and register windows from SPARC. Not sure where the Very Large Instruction Word (VLIW) instruction set comes in to which chips, but this basically allows a CPU to execute multiple instructions at the same time by dispatching a bunch of instructions to many parts of the same chip. As an aside, I'd like to also mention AT&T's Hobbit CPU which was not quite a RISC and not quite a CISC, but had some interesting features. As far as I know the Hobbit was used in two machines: AT&T's EO which competed with and was killed by Apple's Newton, and the prototype BeBoxes. The Hobbit was designed to speed up C code. Instead of internal registers, it used part of its cache to store registers on the stack. That way your registers were offsets of the stack pointer, so your code ran faster. It's not considered a RISC chip because it didn't have a fixed size opcode, but it's certainly a weird and interesting little chip. Assembly and machine code aren't very difficult. They're actually quite simple. Too simple. Imagine that you tell your dog, "go fetch" and throw a bone across the back yard. From a high level language, you might have a library call that does this for you, or maybe you can code it yourself. From assembly, you have to instruct the dog (CPU) at each step. Instructions like, look ahead of you, do you see the ball? Is it infront of you, if so: Move your left front leg this way. Move your right front leg that way, else, look a little to the left, is the ball ahead of you, look a little more to the left, and so forth. Some CPU's are a pleasure to write in assembly for. These include the 6502's, the Motorla 68000, and SPARC's. Some are a horrible nightmare: the intel chip for example, and to a far far lesser degree, MIPS. It's all a matter of "taste" and experience. But if you want to code for Intel, I highly recommend that you don't look at 68000 code or SPARC code. Because once you see how easy those are when compared to Intel, you'll want to cry that you now have to code in Intel assembly. :-) From ray at arachelian.com Sat Aug 5 20:54:07 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 21:54:07 -0400 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <20060806000627.GA21469@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <200608042334270615.03410D07@10.0.0.252> <44D43E2F.8060107@DakotaCom.Net> <20060806000627.GA21469@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <44D54BBF.4060803@arachelian.com> Sean Conner wrote: > I also worked at a software company porting Unix utilities to QNX and I > really like QNX and what can be done with it. I could use the modem on my > boss' computer to dial out without using *any* special software, just > specify the device on his computer (not only was the file system network > transparent, but you could use devices across the network). You could even > run a program on one computer, pipe the output to another program on another > computer and send the output to a third computer, all from the command line, > and all possible because QNX was built on a microkernel and had all this > functionality built in. > MicroKernels are very nice, and as of recently they have one huge advantage (not speed for sure). The bad guys are now going after flaws in device drivers. Guess what, device drivers run with full privileges in most OS's these days and no protection whatsoever. So if you have some very common driver that is known to have an exploit - say a common network driver, you'll be owned that way. With a microkernel, you can isolate the driver against this. Imagine a specially crafted ethernet or WiFi frame that triggers a buffer overlow. :-) see: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/04/hackers_bypass_os/ and http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/03/wifi_driver_hack/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 5 21:14:42 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 19:14:42 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D54A92.7030208@arachelian.com> References: <44D54A92.7030208@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200608051914420146.077995D8@10.0.0.252> On 8/5/2006 at 9:49 PM Ray Arachelian wrote: >Some CPU's are a pleasure to write in assembly for. These include the >6502's, the Motorla 68000, and SPARC's. Some are a horrible nightmare: >the intel chip for example, and to a far far lesser degree, MIPS. It's >all a matter of "taste" and experience. But if you want to code for >Intel, I highly recommend that you don't look at 68000 code or SPARC code. > >Because once you see how easy those are when compared to Intel, you'll >want to cry that you now have to code in Intel assembly. :-) Oh, some Intel chips are worse than others. Basically on the x86 family, it helps if you realize that they're all based on the 8008 with eveything just tacked on. Sort of like a house with 80 rooms that started out as a one-room shack. i860 is perhaps one of the most difficult Intel chips to hand-code for, simply for remembering all of the pipelining rules. If you can write a well-scheduled piece of code, the 860 could really fly. Unfortunately, that seemed to be observed more as the exception than the rule. The 432 may be more difficult, but I've never had the (dis)pleasure of coding for one. I think it's a little ironic now that Motorola has a cellphone out with the i860 appellation. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Aug 5 21:32:32 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 22:32:32 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608051914420146.077995D8@10.0.0.252> References: <44D54A92.7030208@arachelian.com> <200608051914420146.077995D8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608052232.32486.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 05 August 2006 22:14, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Oh, some Intel chips are worse than others. Basically on the x86 family, > it helps if you realize that they're all based on the 8008 with eveything > just tacked on. Sort of like a house with 80 rooms that started out as a > one-room shack. I like that analogy... and in order to add on the rooms, they had to get rid of some of the more "interesting" parts of the original, like the "POP CS" instruction. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Aug 5 21:52:07 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 21:52:07 -0500 Subject: x86es Message-ID: <7eaf435063694f46ba6d631cf70a33ff@valleyimplants.com> > When will the flamewar ever end? Is x86 the magical trolling word around >here? I'm real sorry, I never knew that mentioning x86 systems here >would cause such a dicussion. Really, x86 isn't that bad when you consider that all of its failings are the reason for its triumph: you can get a working computer that does everything that a single-user needs for $600, and it will have decent reliability and capabilities. The disappointment comes in playing mind games to the effect of "well, think what we could have if they just spent a bit more..." That and a disappointment that many "Computer Science/IT" people think that Windows is so great that they won't bother to consider or even learn anything else. I'll try to moderate myself. I don't want to be a grumpy old fart at 28, and it does increase list civility. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Aug 5 22:38:49 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 15:38:49 +1200 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D54A92.7030208@arachelian.com> References: <44D54A92.7030208@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On 8/6/06, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Some CPU's are a pleasure to write in assembly for. These include the > 6502's, the Motorla 68000, and SPARC's. Some are a horrible nightmare: > the intel chip for example, and to a far far lesser degree, MIPS. It's > all a matter of "taste" and experience. But if you want to code for > Intel, I highly recommend that you don't look at 68000 code or SPARC code. > > Because once you see how easy those are when compared to Intel, you'll > want to cry that you now have to code in Intel assembly. :-) Heh... I've been paid to write 6502, PDP-11, 68000, VAX, and x86 assembly over the years (mostly in the 80s). I have to agree that the x86 was nowhere near as pleasant as any of the others. -ethan From segin2005 at gmail.com Sat Aug 5 22:54:31 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 23:54:31 -0400 Subject: x86es In-Reply-To: <7eaf435063694f46ba6d631cf70a33ff@valleyimplants.com> References: <7eaf435063694f46ba6d631cf70a33ff@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <44D567F7.1060101@gmail.com> Scott Quinn wrote: > >>When will the flamewar ever end? Is x86 the magical trolling word around >>here? I'm real sorry, I never knew that mentioning x86 systems here >>would cause such a dicussion. > > > ... a disappointment that many "Computer Science/IT" > people think that Windows is so great that they won't bother to consider or even learn anything else. Hmm... maybe we should mail them all a bunch of Windows 95 CDs. -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Aug 5 23:31:16 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 21:31:16 -0700 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <44D54BBF.4060803@arachelian.com> References: <200608042334270615.03410D07@10.0.0.252> <44D43E2F.8060107@DakotaCom.Net> <20060806000627.GA21469@linus.groomlake.area51> <44D54BBF.4060803@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44D57094.8030202@dakotacom.net> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Sean Conner wrote: >> I also worked at a software company porting Unix utilities to QNX and I >> really like QNX and what can be done with it. I could use the modem on my >> boss' computer to dial out without using *any* special software, just >> specify the device on his computer (not only was the file system network >> transparent, but you could use devices across the network). You could even >> run a program on one computer, pipe the output to another program on another >> computer and send the output to a third computer, all from the command line, >> and all possible because QNX was built on a microkernel and had all this >> functionality built in. > > MicroKernels are very nice, and as of recently they have one huge > advantage (not speed for sure). The > bad guys are now going after flaws in device drivers. Guess what, > device drivers run with full privileges > in most OS's these days and no protection whatsoever. So if you have > some very common driver that > is known to have an exploit - say a common network driver, you'll be > owned that way. With a > microkernel, you can isolate the driver against this. Imagine a > specially crafted ethernet or WiFi frame > that triggers a buffer overlow. :-) > > see: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/04/hackers_bypass_os/ and > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/03/wifi_driver_hack/ Exactly. All the *cost* of crossing protection domains has the implied benefit of *enforcing* those protections. So, maybe the "wifi server" or "ethernet server" dies and you lose that *capability* -- but the rest of the system keeps on ticking. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 5 23:40:21 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 21:40:21 -0700 Subject: Classic Mac emulation (was Re: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.)) In-Reply-To: <44D4EB55.1000508@arachelian.com> References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <44D47B88.8040909@neurotica.com> <44D4E2A7.1090501@arachelian.com> <44D4EB55.1000508@arachelian.com> Message-ID: At 3:02 PM -0400 8/5/06, Ray Arachelian wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >> I've head of these, but haven't tried them yet, as I'm still running >> 10.3.9 on a G5, so can still run my software under classic. Ideally >> I'd like a PPC emulator, even a 604e would work for me. >... >> I need something that supports networking, interfaces cleanly with the >> host OS's filesystem, and gives me a decent sized screen (1280x1024 >> would do nicely). Ideally PPC support, but just 68k support would let >> me run the most important stuff. >I think PearPC does PPC emulation. It emulates a G3 or G4, but very >slowly. see http://pearpc.sourceforge.net/ and this link for an >article that tells you how to configure it: >http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2005/01/18/PearPC.html >I'm not sure if it will run OS 9.x. Basilisk will run upto OS 8.5 just >fine. (OS 9 is PPC only) > >Basilisk II does have networking, and you can surf the web with ancient >Netscape Navigators. At least, there's a network module for it on >Windows. Not sure about under Mac OS X. I'm actually looking to be able to talk classic Appletalk via an emulator rather than TCP/IP. Mac OS X handles TCP/IP just fine, so unless I'm trying to run my rather antiquated version of eXodus (X-Windows) I personally don't have a need, though I could probably find one :^) >Yeah, but if they open source it, it has a better chance of survival, in >one form or another. Executor's 68K core seems to be very fast, so it >could be useful to lots of other emulation projects. Keep in mind that it's been about 10 years since I touched it, however, wasn't it emulating both the 68k and System 6? Or was it System 7? It didn't actually run it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 5 23:53:02 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 21:53:02 -0700 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <44D53EB0.2090907@neurotica.com> References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <44D47B88.8040909@neurotica.com> <44D53EB0.2090907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 8:58 PM -0400 8/5/06, Dave McGuire wrote: > Well it's not like your Mac is going to just stop working anytime >soon. If you really need Classic-only apps, you could even pick up >an old 7600/8600/9600-ish machine to dedicate to them. Anymore I tend to think of three things, space, electrical consumption, and cooling (my Sunblade 1000 fails on all counts). I still have a PowerBook 540c (it replaced my 520c), that can run the key app. Or I can use my 8500/180, or G4/450. The thing is, for convenience I really need all my DTP apps on one system. At the same time, I don't plan on moving off my G5 anytime soon, and am not sure I'll even move off of 10.3.9. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Aug 6 00:12:08 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 01:12:08 -0400 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <44D47B88.8040909@neurotica.com> <44D53EB0.2090907@neurotica.com> <44D53F6C.2040807@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <012001c6b916$e9437890$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 9:01 PM Subject: Re: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) > Speaking of Macs... > > I've inherited a beige G3 (?) and an 840AV (?). > Any suggestions as to what I should install on them? On the 840AV I guess it depends on what is installed in the unit hardware wise and what you like to do. I have Mac OS 8.1 on my 840AV and use it for video capture, but it will do many other 68K era tasks just fine (since it is the fastest stock 68K Mac made). From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 6 00:12:46 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 22:12:46 -0700 Subject: Macs and PCs vs workstations In-Reply-To: <30a25e66f80541c79f3f77b309ee64bf@valleyimplants.com> References: <30a25e66f80541c79f3f77b309ee64bf@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: At 4:22 PM -0500 8/5/06, Scott Quinn wrote: >I'll give you Suns, I wasn't thinking clearly. They started going >downhill about 1998. Was it that far back :^( Sadly most of the Suns I have experience with are U60 vintage or older. At the same time I'd be inclined to blame the U5 and U10 for when they started going downhill. >HP-9000s are very good, also, but >some of the bus architectures are starting to show their age. I don't feel I can comment on HP's, it's been 10 years since I actively worked on HP-9000's. Some of the workstations I saw in the late 90's had some rather frightening looking HW designs. >real IBM stuff is always nice, their big iron concepts seem to >percolate down to the midrange RS6ks, and it shows. Admittedly most of the RS6k's I've worked on have been pretty high end. >I managed to crash my Indigo2 once - don't try doing a bunch of >things on the machine while patching the software. Nuff said. >O2s low end. Should have been dropped in '99. Can't tell you how >Octane would work with many disks on both controllers, since the >onboard SCSI and network interface (as well as other OBIO) share the >same PCI bus behind the XIO Bridge. I think the o2 is a nice little machine, my only complaints are the 1GB RAM limit, and the low-end graphics. I'd love an Octane, but have decided more SGI hardware just doesn't make sense. >On the Macs: PIDE is horrible for doing more than one thing at once. Period. Nothing new there, is there any platform where it isn't? >Last ship for VAX was 2000, last VAX-VMS was 7.3-1. Last version of OpenVMS for the VAX is 7.3, 7.3-1 is Alpha only. I believe the last version of VAX/VMS was 5.5-2H4. Yeah, I'm picking a couple nits here :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From derschjo at msu.edu Sat Aug 5 21:42:55 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 19:42:55 -0700 Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... Message-ID: <44D5572F.1010302@msu.edu> I've recently inherited a ComputerVision CADDStation (basically a rebadged Sun3 machine) and a pile of tapes of software for it from Scott Quinn. Before I work on getting the machine up and running again, I have two tasks I'd like to take care of, in no particular order: 1. Repairing the CADDStation's tape drive. 2. Archiving the tapes in a useful format. For taking care of #1, as far as I can tell the drive works except for a rubber wheel that's turned to this lovely gooey tar. I don't necessarily _need_ to fix the drive, since I have a compatible replacement, but I'd like to keep the system as original as possible so if it's possible to fix without too much work I'd like to do that. The tape drive in question is an Archive 5945S-1. Anyone have any idea how feasible it is to find a replacement wheel for this drive? Any good places to look that you'd recommend? Regarding #2, I don't have an incredible amount of experience dealing with tape, so I'm looking for suggestions for how best to archive these tapes without losing any important information. I have a Linux machine to which I can connect my spare tape drive in order to do the archiving, it's just a matter of determining what's necessary on the software end to make an accurate copy. The tapes all appear to be QIC-24, and probably contain data in whatever format SunOS uses (since the CADDStation basically runs a rebranded version of SunOS.) Thanks for any suggestions! Josh From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Aug 6 02:34:13 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 19:34:13 +1200 Subject: Macs and PCs vs workstations In-Reply-To: References: <30a25e66f80541c79f3f77b309ee64bf@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: On 8/6/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 4:22 PM -0500 8/5/06, Scott Quinn wrote: > >I'll give you Suns, I wasn't thinking clearly. They started going > >downhill about 1998. Hmm... so you put the split at about the A3000/A5000 timeframe? (I was buying $$$$ in Sun equipment for Lucent in 1997 and 1998). > Was it that far back :^( Sadly most of the Suns I have experience > with are U60 vintage or older. At the same time I'd be inclined to > blame the U5 and U10 for when they started going downhill. I'd agree that U5s and U10s are built for the lowest cost possible. I used to use a U5 in 1999 - it did make a nice X-Terminal. Glad I didn't have to compile apps or do real work on it. > Last version of OpenVMS for the VAX is 7.3, 7.3-1 is Alpha only. I > believe the last version of VAX/VMS was 5.5-2H4. Yeah, I'm picking a > couple nits here :^) I've run 6.0 on a uVAX-II with an RD54... it was a *really* tight squeeze, but it did (barely) fit. I thought that VAX/VMS went up through 6.x and stopped at 7.0, or was it 7.1? Can't say for sure without looking it up - since 7.0, I've been running VMS on Alpha hardware. -ethan From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Aug 6 03:02:40 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 09:02:40 +0100 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 05 Aug 2006 18:01:32 PDT." <44D53F6C.2040807@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608060802.JAA01413@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Don said: > old 7600/8600/9600-ish machine to dedicate to them. > > Speaking of Macs... > > I've inherited a beige G3 (?) and an 840AV (?). > Any suggestions as to what I should install on them? Bernhard Baehr's PDP-8 emulator! http://home.t-online.de/home/bernhard.baehr/pdp8e/pdp8e.html -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Aug 6 06:46:51 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 07:46:51 -0400 Subject: Classic Mac emulation (was Re: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.)) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 05 Aug 2006 21:40:21 PDT." Message-ID: <200608061146.k76BkpQ4014105@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >I'm actually looking to be able to talk classic Appletalk via an >emulator rather than TCP/IP. Mmmm. The emulator would have to patch the roms and catch the calls to the LAP driver. At the bottom it's talking to the SCC in a way that might make it hard to emulate. It might be possible to fool the code into thinking everything was ok and then collect the packet bytes... (ugg. i've worked on lap drivers talking directly to the scc. that code was extremely timing critical.) thinking about writing an scc chip emulator makes my head hurt. -brad From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Sun Aug 6 07:47:39 2006 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 13:47:39 +0100 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) Message-ID: Patrick Finnegan writing on Chuck Guzis' commentary: { I like that analogy... and in order to add on the rooms, they had to get rid "of some of the more "interesting" parts of the original, like the "POP CS" instruction.} {Some are a horrible nightmare: the intel chip for example, and to a far far lesser degree, MIPS.} I quite agree that the 'shack' expanded into the current 8086 conglomeration but we must consider its success. It's practically the 'only' thing left for the masses to experiment with. Those of us still in pre-PC era(well, trying to stay there - getting harder and harder these days!), and I do enjoy fiddling-around with my Coleco ADAM and coding the Z-80, can only wonder and ponder, what-if... Keep on computing! Murray :) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 6 09:24:36 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 07:24:36 -0700 Subject: Macs and PCs vs workstations In-Reply-To: References: <30a25e66f80541c79f3f77b309ee64bf@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: At 7:34 PM +1200 8/6/06, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On 8/6/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>Last version of OpenVMS for the VAX is 7.3, 7.3-1 is Alpha only. I >>believe the last version of VAX/VMS was 5.5-2H4. Yeah, I'm picking a >>couple nits here :^) > >I've run 6.0 on a uVAX-II with an RD54... it was a *really* tight >squeeze, but it did (barely) fit. I thought that VAX/VMS went up >through 6.x and stopped at 7.0, or was it 7.1? Can't say for sure >without looking it up - since 7.0, I've been running VMS on Alpha >hardware. My point was that VAX/VMS became OpenVMS which runs on both VAX and Alpha with v6.0, IIRC. The newest version to run on the VAX is 7.3. I've no idea if they're ever going to do one of the 8.x versions for the VAX. The roadmap on the HP website might give a clue. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ray at arachelian.com Sun Aug 6 09:28:29 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 10:28:29 -0400 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <44D57094.8030202@dakotacom.net> References: <200608042334270615.03410D07@10.0.0.252> <44D43E2F.8060107@DakotaCom.Net> <20060806000627.GA21469@linus.groomlake.area51> <44D54BBF.4060803@arachelian.com> <44D57094.8030202@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44D5FC8D.1060204@arachelian.com> Don wrote: > Ray Arachelian wrote: >> >> see: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/04/hackers_bypass_os/ and >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/03/wifi_driver_hack/ > > Exactly. All the *cost* of crossing protection domains > has the implied benefit of *enforcing* those protections. > So, maybe the "wifi server" or "ethernet server" dies and > you lose that *capability* -- but the rest of the system > keeps on ticking. > Even better, you don't lose that functionality, you restart the driver. So maybe you lose a few packets, or maybe you have to re-establish your WPA/WEP session to the AP, which shouldn't take all that long. So it's the equivalent of a network burp. But likely, your applications (perhaps even ssh sessions) will keep on working, and you don't get owned. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 6 09:27:25 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 07:27:25 -0700 Subject: Classic Mac emulation (was Re: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.)) In-Reply-To: <200608061146.k76BkpQ4014105@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200608061146.k76BkpQ4014105@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: At 7:46 AM -0400 8/6/06, Brad Parker wrote: >"Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> >>I'm actually looking to be able to talk classic Appletalk via an >>emulator rather than TCP/IP. > >Mmmm. The emulator would have to patch the roms and catch the calls to >the LAP driver. At the bottom it's talking to the SCC in a way that >might make it hard to emulate. It might be possible to fool the code >into thinking everything was ok and then collect the packet bytes... > >(ugg. i've worked on lap drivers talking directly to the scc. that >code was extremely timing critical.) > >thinking about writing an scc chip emulator makes my head hurt. > >-brad Are you talking about Appletalk over serial? I meant over ethernet. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From segin2005 at gmail.com Sun Aug 6 09:42:49 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 10:42:49 -0400 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <44D5FC8D.1060204@arachelian.com> References: <200608042334270615.03410D07@10.0.0.252> <44D43E2F.8060107@DakotaCom.Net> <20060806000627.GA21469@linus.groomlake.area51> <44D54BBF.4060803@arachelian.com> <44D57094.8030202@dakotacom.net> <44D5FC8D.1060204@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44D5FFE9.1050103@gmail.com> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Don wrote: > >>Ray Arachelian wrote: >> >>>see: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/04/hackers_bypass_os/ and >>>http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/03/wifi_driver_hack/ >> >>Exactly. All the *cost* of crossing protection domains >>has the implied benefit of *enforcing* those protections. >>So, maybe the "wifi server" or "ethernet server" dies and >>you lose that *capability* -- but the rest of the system >>keeps on ticking. >> > > > Even better, you don't lose that functionality, you restart the driver. > So maybe you lose a few packets, or maybe you have to re-establish your > WPA/WEP session to the AP, which shouldn't take all that long. So it's > the equivalent of a network burp. But likely, your applications > (perhaps even ssh sessions) will keep on working, and you don't get owned. > > ssh doesn't seem to follow the standard rules of timeouts. I have left a ssh session idle once for over 3 days, and it still worked. -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From ray at arachelian.com Sun Aug 6 09:42:04 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 10:42:04 -0400 Subject: Classic Mac emulation (was Re: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.)) In-Reply-To: References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <44D47B88.8040909@neurotica.com> <44D4E2A7.1090501@arachelian.com> <44D4EB55.1000508@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44D5FFBC.5050708@arachelian.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm actually looking to be able to talk classic Appletalk via an > emulator rather than TCP/IP. Mac OS X handles TCP/IP just fine, so > unless I'm trying to run my rather antiquated version of eXodus > (X-Windows) I personally don't have a need, though I could probably > find one :^) You could either get an AppleTalk to EtherTalk bridge. I think Faralon made those. Actually, I have one of those that I have never been able to get working, if you want it contact me offlist and I'll try to locate it. Or, you could get an old IIsi with an ethernet card and run the LocalTalk to Ethertalk bridge program. I don't have much use for AppleTalk anymore. There aren't that many devices that I own that use'em that don't have ethernet. I used LocalTalk back when I used an old TI microlaser printer that had the option. It was perfect for that. I even used a PC LocalTalk port to network to this printer. I think it had DOS drivers, so 8.3 file names for file sharing were the thing, and it connected on the parallel port. I suppose I could use LocalTalk to talk to my old Mac SE or Lisa's, but I usually don't run MacWorks on the Lisa's, and anything I transfer from these usually works well enough over sneakernet with floppies. :-) Besides, I'd rather fire up Basilisk or vMac instead of the SE since it's less trouble and runs a lot faster. May I ask, what do you want to do with LocalTalk? > Keep in mind that it's been about 10 years since I touched it, > however, wasn't it emulating both the 68k and System 6? Or was it > System 7? It didn't actually run Executor does seem to emulate system 7. However, that's not its strength. It's strength is the speedy 68040/68020 emulation and also the rewritten Mac OS system calls. This is equivalent to the WINE projects rewrite of the win32 API calls. It might not be such a big deal since Basilisk II does a much better job at emulating Mac OS, and it's likely that its JIT is better written. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 6 10:04:24 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 11:04:24 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> Murray McCullough wrote: > I quite agree that the 'shack' expanded into the current 8086 > conglomeration but we must consider its success. Its commercial success doesn't make it a good architecture. ;) > It's practically the > 'only' thing left for the masses to experiment with. Huh?? Except for perhaps SPARC, PowerPC, MIPS, Itanium, Alpha, ARM...And then only if you're restricting your view to things that you can buy *brand new* today. "The masses" can even pick up something like a PDP-11 pretty much any time on eBay. > Those of us still > in pre-PC era(well, trying to stay there - getting harder and harder > these days!), and I do enjoy fiddling-around with my Coleco ADAM and > coding the Z-80, can only wonder and ponder, what-if... I love hacking with Z80s. I consider myself very lucky that much of my work these days is done in the embedded systems world, where Z80s (albeit at 50MHz with 24-bit address buses) are alive and well. It's neat to see how it has made the transition from mainstream general-purpose processor to common embedded processor. (and I'll bet Zilog sure is happy about it!) I remember the Adam...what a neat machine. A friend in high school had one. I remember being utterly fascinated by those cassette drives...cassettes as a file-structured medium? Neat! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 6 10:17:15 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 08:17:15 -0700 Subject: Classic Mac emulation (was Re: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.)) In-Reply-To: <44D5FFBC.5050708@arachelian.com> References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <44D47B88.8040909@neurotica.com> <44D4E2A7.1090501@arachelian.com> <44D4EB55.1000508@arachelian.com> <44D5FFBC.5050708@arachelian.com> Message-ID: At 10:42 AM -0400 8/6/06, Ray Arachelian wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I'm actually looking to be able to talk classic Appletalk via an >> emulator rather than TCP/IP. Mac OS X handles TCP/IP just fine, so >> unless I'm trying to run my rather antiquated version of eXodus >> (X-Windows) I personally don't have a need, though I could probably >> find one :^) >You could either get an AppleTalk to EtherTalk bridge. I think Faralon >made those. Actually, I have one of those that I have never been able >to get working, if you want it contact me offlist and I'll try to locate >it. When I say classic Appletalk, I'm actually talking about over ethernet, while Mac OS X still supports Appletalk over Ethernet they've dropped support for the classic version, and only have the newer version (I think it dates back to about System 8). They still support it for printers, and the newer version (I forget what it is, I want to say Appletalk over IP). I have some of the Appletalk to Ethertalk bridges, in fact my HP 5MP printer is plugged into one. I actually view this as one of the pieces of hardware that needs to be removed from my network in order to get away from Appletalk. >May I ask, what do you want to do with LocalTalk? My PowerBook 540c still runs System 7, and I don't see any reason to upgrade it, nor is it desirable. My OpenVMS 7.3-2 is still running Appletalk as well, it serves up Appletalk volumes and prints via Appletalk. It is also my big reason for needing Appletalk, and the biggest reason I really need to get off of it. If I was fully patched, Appletalk would break, and if I upgrade it breaks. To get off of it though I need to put an ethernet-to-parallel box in place. I have several and have had one for at least 6+ years, the problem here is that the existing solution simply works. Plus as crazy as it sounds, part of the holdup is a parallel cable, I know I have several, but am not sure where they are, and I refuse to waste the money on another one. Still, the big problem is that Appletalk is the best way to access the data on my VMS box from my Mac. Neither Samba or NFS work as well. Since staying with Appletalk is keeping me on older versions of both OpenVMS and Mac OS X, I really need to find a good resolution to the file sharing issue. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Aug 6 10:26:52 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 08:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic Mac emulation (was Re: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.)) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Aug 6, 6 08:17:15 am" Message-ID: <200608061526.k76FQqVk010118@floodgap.com> > When I say classic Appletalk, I'm actually talking about over > ethernet, while Mac OS X still supports Appletalk over Ethernet > they've dropped support for the classic version, and only have the > newer version (I think it dates back to about System 8). They still > support it for printers, and the newer version (I forget what it is, > I want to say Appletalk over IP). AFP over TCP? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: Travel is important today. The IRS will arrive tomorrow. ---------- From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 6 10:40:23 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 08:40:23 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> References: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608060840230926.0A5B37B7@10.0.0.252> On 8/6/2006 at 11:04 AM Dave McGuire wrote: > I love hacking with Z80s. I consider myself very lucky that much of >my work these days is done in the embedded systems world, where Z80s >(albeit at 50MHz with 24-bit address buses) are alive and well. It's >neat to see how it has made the transition from mainstream >general-purpose processor to common embedded processor. (and I'll bet >Zilog sure is happy about it!) And yet, to my eye, the Z80 architecture is about as bad as the 8086. Basically, a lot of instructions grafted onto an 8008 model. There were some architectures that held real promise back in the early days that never went anywhere; the GI CP1600, for example. A nice, reasonably orthogonal set of 16-bit registers witha straightforward instruction set. But I'll be the first to admit that GI was ham-handed about it--10 bit instruction width; poor I/O performance, etc. Most MPU instruction sets were cobbled together to fit within the constraints of silicon technology. Most mainframes of the time had rather elegant, straighforward instruction sets. There's a point of view that microprocessors were a devolution in the field of computer science, and I have to admit that it has some merit. Before the 8008/8080, who was even fooling with single-user mono-tasking operating systems as a serious effort? With mainfraimes we had graphics, database management, multi-user, multi-tasking, advanced architectures and all manner of work being done in basic computer science. Along comes the microprocessor and the siren song of easy money causes some very bright people to spend great chunks of their professional lives on MS-DOS, Windows and other already-invented-for-mainframes stuff. Right now, I figure we're somewhere in OS development on micros about where we were with a Spectra 70 running VMOS. In another thread, the discussion is centering around Microkernels (been there, done that on a mainframe) and the need to keep I/O drivers as part of the kernel. Why? Why should the CPU even have access to I/O ports and interrupts? Why doesn't every device have its own I/O processor with access to CPU memory? Or better yet, why not a pool of communicating I/O processors that can be allocated to the tasks at hand, leaving the CPU to do what it does best? Is silicon now so expensive that we can't advance to an idea that's more than 40 years old? Forgive the rant, but other than bringing computers to the masses, do microcomputers represent a significant forward movement in the state of the art? Cheers, Chuck > > I remember the Adam...what a neat machine. A friend in high school >had one. I remember being utterly fascinated by those cassette >drives...cassettes as a file-structured medium? Neat! > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 6 10:54:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 08:54:11 -0700 Subject: Bugs T-shirt In-Reply-To: <200608060840230926.0A5B37B7@10.0.0.252> References: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> <200608060840230926.0A5B37B7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608060854110987.0A67DA54@10.0.0.252> Hey, I've got an old T-shirt that doesn't fit me and is destined to hit the rag pile. It's a "Getting out the last bugs" shirt with "SunStruck 4.1.89 (Wanda)" on the back. Is this of any historical value or is it better used to wax the Volvo? Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Aug 6 11:14:37 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 11:14:37 -0500 Subject: OpenVMS Message-ID: <7329c38dca5c434abd0aee387b6e3c5b@valleyimplants.com> "OpenVMS VAX" - pure bloat. 4 extra keystrokes, 4 extra bytes (unless you have a 7-bit impl, in which case it's one nybble less) and the LMF still calls it VAX-VMS. And my "no more grumping" resolution's already out the window. Faugh. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 6 11:38:44 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 09:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: x86es Message-ID: <20060806163844.73340.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> I recently found a set of Win95 floppies. Yeehaw what fun! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Aug 6 11:37:44 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 11:37:44 -0500 Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... Message-ID: (1) the tape drive: I fixed my IRIS drive by cleaning off the goo and sliding on a section of some sort of (probably very nice & expensive) tubing I got at Boeing Surplus. Not quite vinyl (matte finish and slightly bluish, more flexable then vinyl), but similar. Get a set of calipers in there and get the O.D. and I.D. needed and let me know. I still have many yards of the stuff. (2) Sun tapes are in TAR format, excepting the first couple, Let me grab my "System Administrator's Guide to Sun Workstations". O.K.- for SunOS 4.0 on QIC: tape: file: name: format: 1 0 boot image 1 1 XDRTOC TOC 1 2 copy image 1 3 mini-root image 1 4 munix image 1 5 munixfs image the rest are TARs, except tape1, file 15 (copyright) and tape2, 0 (boot) 2,1 (XDRTOC) and 2,12 (copyright) Have the whole list if anyone needs it, don't want to choke up cctalk, though I archive twice: once as "dd" files, once as "extracted" files. On TAR tapes, the dd files double as the extracted files, so there is no issue (same with CPIO). Things like IRIS-4D disttapes (distcp) and Apollo Domain tapes (rbak) need to be extracted in order to be readable without rewriting a tape, though. Pay attention when copying older tapes. Sometimes the belt slips and you get some slack that starts to make a snapping or popping noise as it gets pulled taut and goes loose. If you don't catch this, you can tie your tape in knots. A script I use to automate the dd copy follows #! /bin/sh filenum=1 #where the numbers in the filenames start bs=1024 #block size, bigger = faster, smaller=better error handling while [1] do dd if=/dev/nrst0 of=file${filenum} bs=${bs} if [$? != 0] then break fi filenum='expr $filenum + 1' done --------- slightly crude, but works. Replace the /dev/nrst0 with your tape no-rewind device (this is set up for SunOS4 as it stands). Make a directory with the name of the tape, cd to it, run the script, and the tapefiles will be extracted in file1, file2 ... files. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 6 11:40:58 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 12:40:58 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608060840230926.0A5B37B7@10.0.0.252> References: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> <200608060840230926.0A5B37B7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D61B9A.7010302@neurotica.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I love hacking with Z80s. I consider myself very lucky that much of >> my work these days is done in the embedded systems world, where Z80s >> (albeit at 50MHz with 24-bit address buses) are alive and well. It's >> neat to see how it has made the transition from mainstream >> general-purpose processor to common embedded processor. (and I'll bet >> Zilog sure is happy about it!) > > And yet, to my eye, the Z80 architecture is about as bad as the 8086. > Basically, a lot of instructions grafted onto an 8008 model. Yep. But to be fair I think that lineage really started with the 8080; the 8008->8080 differences were much more significant than any other step in the family. But I digress. I have to say that I do love the Z80, but I think I "forgive" some of its architecturally unclean aspects because it was the first architecture that I learned assembler on. > There's a point of view that microprocessors were a devolution in the field > of computer science, and I have to admit that it has some merit. Before > the 8008/8080, who was even fooling with single-user mono-tasking operating > systems as a serious effort? With mainfraimes we had graphics, database > management, multi-user, multi-tasking, advanced architectures and all > manner of work being done in basic computer science. Along comes the > microprocessor and the siren song of easy money causes some very bright > people to spend great chunks of their professional lives on MS-DOS, Windows > and other already-invented-for-mainframes stuff. Yes! I've long held the belief that "the computer world" is split into two completely different halves that don't even know of each other's existence. There's the side that started in the 1940s and had some of the world's most intelligent people working on them (which today only lives on in the mainframe world) and then there's the part that started in 1969 with a chip designed for a desktop calculator. The way I see it, everything we have to day, except for the mainframe world, is descended from the i4004...and as such, doesn't trace its lineage back to the 1940's...but to 1969's development of a processor for a desktop calculator. The "already invented for mainframes" thing has big examples in the minicomputer world as well. All this hoopla about SANs these days...we had that on our VAXen in, what, 1980? This is nothing new! > In another thread, the discussion is centering around Microkernels (been > there, done that on a mainframe) and the need to keep I/O drivers as part > of the kernel. Why? Why should the CPU even have access to I/O ports and > interrupts? Why doesn't every device have its own I/O processor with > access to CPU memory? Or better yet, why not a pool of communicating I/O > processors that can be allocated to the tasks at hand, leaving the CPU to > do what it does best? Is silicon now so expensive that we can't advance to > an idea that's more than 40 years old? When I read this paragraph, I wanted to stand up and cheer. You and I think very, very much alike in this area. If I didn't have to squander my time working like a dog just to keep the electric service turned on, I'd be building systems just like that. One of these days I'll get myself out of the dysfunctional "american dream" lifestyle of borrowing money to live beyond my means. > Forgive the rant, but other than bringing computers to the masses, do > microcomputers represent a significant forward movement in the state of the > art? Absolutely not, and I'd be really surprised if any experienced person actually thought otherwise. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Aug 6 11:44:38 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 11:44:38 -0500 Subject: Update on Classic Computer Rescue Message-ID: <00c301c6b977$9d0030c0$43406b43@66067007> Awhile back I asked for help rescuing two large collections of classic computers and other related items and to date we are just $1400 dollars from meeting our goal. The cost of the two trips, one to Nebraska (was KS but items moved for storage) and the other to Georgia is estimated at $3200 total for truck rentals and fuel. I will be paying for my own meals and those that help in each State. I have volunteers in each area that have offered to help load the trucks. So, if I can get just 140 more people to donate $10 then both trips can be made. A partial list of the items can be found at www.houstoncomputermuseum.org and your donation large or small is tax deductible (we are a 501(c)(3) nonprofit). Thanks to all that sent funds in the last few weeks. Thanks for looking. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 6 11:59:13 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 09:59:13 -0700 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <44D5FC8D.1060204@arachelian.com> References: <200608042334270615.03410D07@10.0.0.252> <44D43E2F.8060107@DakotaCom.Net> <20060806000627.GA21469@linus.groomlake.area51> <44D54BBF.4060803@arachelian.com> <44D57094.8030202@dakotacom.net> <44D5FC8D.1060204@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44D61FE1.7090104@dakotacom.net> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Don wrote: >> Ray Arachelian wrote: >>> see: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/04/hackers_bypass_os/ and >>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/03/wifi_driver_hack/ >> Exactly. All the *cost* of crossing protection domains >> has the implied benefit of *enforcing* those protections. >> So, maybe the "wifi server" or "ethernet server" dies and >> you lose that *capability* -- but the rest of the system >> keeps on ticking. > > Even better, you don't lose that functionality, you restart the driver. Yes, though you need a daemon watching for that specific purpose. > So maybe you lose a few packets, or maybe you have to re-establish your > WPA/WEP session to the AP, which shouldn't take all that long. So it's > the equivalent of a network burp. But likely, your applications > (perhaps even ssh sessions) will keep on working, and you don't get owned. Depends on the service, of course. In my world, that service may be running a motor that drives a leadscrew that positions a cutting tool, etc. If it's not where it's supposed to be *when* it's supposed to be there, there can be significant consequences :-( Hence the appeal of making sure some OTHER piece of code doesn't misbehave and cause *this* process to hiccup. Now, add to this the desire to let the *user*/purchaser augment the system with their own code -- some of which may need access to devices in a way that a traditional approach would necessitate their inclusion in the (monolithic) kernel and you see how quickly this can turn into a fingerpointing contest (customer's code doesn't work; the only way to PROVE that it is not your liability -- legal or otherwise -- is to debug his code and point out why it is crashing *your* code). From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 6 12:11:14 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 13:11:14 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D53F5A.60000@neurotica.com> References: <200608051335.45703.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D53F5A.60000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608061311.14980.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 05 August 2006 09:01 pm, Dave McGuire wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> I replaced this with another aging machine - a PIII running at 500Mhz, > >> which only uses 100Watts more - but I can certainly get a lot more out > >> of it. So that old machine certainly cost me more to run than the new > >> one in terms of performance for electricity used. I certainly don't > >> need a 2Ghz AMD64 with 4GB of RAM for use as a router. Today. In 5 > >> years from now, my desktop will be very likely be my router. > > > > A P-III is "an aging machine"? > > Welcome to the PC world...where something becomes obsolete just > because something newer starts shipping! > > Remember what P.T. Barnum said about suckers being born every minute? Yeah, well... I still have all of my CP/M boxes. Although I don't use 'em all that much these days. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 6 12:21:39 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 13:21:39 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: References: <44D54A92.7030208@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200608061321.39435.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 05 August 2006 11:38 pm, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/6/06, Ray Arachelian wrote: > > Some CPU's are a pleasure to write in assembly for. These include the > > 6502's, the Motorla 68000, and SPARC's. Some are a horrible nightmare: > > the intel chip for example, and to a far far lesser degree, MIPS. It's > > all a matter of "taste" and experience. But if you want to code for > > Intel, I highly recommend that you don't look at 68000 code or SPARC > > code. > > > > Because once you see how easy those are when compared to Intel, you'll > > want to cry that you now have to code in Intel assembly. :-) > > Heh... I've been paid to write 6502, PDP-11, 68000, VAX, and x86 > assembly over the years (mostly in the 80s). I have to agree that the > x86 was nowhere near as pleasant as any of the others. It is *so* nice to find others that feel this way... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 6 12:29:15 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 13:29:15 -0400 Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... In-Reply-To: <44D5572F.1010302@msu.edu> References: <44D5572F.1010302@msu.edu> Message-ID: <200608061329.15940.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 05 August 2006 10:42 pm, Josh Dersch wrote: > I've recently inherited a ComputerVision CADDStation (basically a > rebadged Sun3 machine) and a pile of tapes of software for it from Scott > Quinn. Before I work on getting the machine up and running again, I > have two tasks I'd like to take care of, in no particular order: > > 1. Repairing the CADDStation's tape drive. > 2. Archiving the tapes in a useful format. > > For taking care of #1, as far as I can tell the drive works except for a > rubber wheel that's turned to this lovely gooey tar. <...> > Anyone have any idea how feasible it is to find a replacement wheel for this > drive? Any good places to look that you'd recommend? It's been a really long time since I looked, but there were companies that used to sell all sorts of belts and rubber wheels and such for a lot of equipment that used such. I know that VCRs used to have several of both, for example. I was pleasantly surprised a while back when, finding that our answering machine had quite working, I went to our local electronics wholesaler and was able to walk in and buy a couple of belts for it to replace the ones that were in there, which I'd last changed somewhere back around 1986 or so... You might try MCM electronics, as one possibility, though there are no doubt other suppliers as well that do mail-order. Those suppliers do have cross-reference materials available, though it's primarily oriented toward consumer equipment. <...> > The tapes all appear to be QIC-24, Do any of you guys know where I might find a list or a web page or similar that details what all those "QIC" numbers represent? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 6 12:32:29 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 13:32:29 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> References: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608061332.29131.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 06 August 2006 11:04 am, Dave McGuire wrote: > I love hacking with Z80s. I consider myself very lucky that much of > my work these days is done in the embedded systems world, where Z80s > (albeit at 50MHz with 24-bit address buses) are alive and well. It's > neat to see how it has made the transition from mainstream > general-purpose processor to common embedded processor. (and I'll bet > Zilog sure is happy about it!) I'm also quite comfortable with the z80, and sure wouldn't mind finding some way to actually get paid for working with them... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 6 12:39:45 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 10:39:45 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608060840230926.0A5B37B7@10.0.0.252> References: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> <200608060840230926.0A5B37B7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D62961.2080105@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/6/2006 at 11:04 AM Dave McGuire wrote: > >> I love hacking with Z80s. I consider myself very lucky that much of >> my work these days is done in the embedded systems world, where Z80s >> (albeit at 50MHz with 24-bit address buses) are alive and well. It's >> neat to see how it has made the transition from mainstream >> general-purpose processor to common embedded processor. (and I'll bet >> Zilog sure is happy about it!) > > And yet, to my eye, the Z80 architecture is about as bad as the 8086. > Basically, a lot of instructions grafted onto an 8008 model. > > There were some architectures that held real promise back in the early days > that never went anywhere; the GI CP1600, for example. A nice, reasonably Shirley you jest? GI's devices were seriously crippled in terms of performance. We used to give the GI rep blank stares when he came peddling product -- "You don't REALLY think we can use these things for the types of products we design, do you?" > orthogonal set of 16-bit registers witha straightforward instruction set. > But I'll be the first to admit that GI was ham-handed about it--10 bit > instruction width; poor I/O performance, etc. Most MPU instruction sets > were cobbled together to fit within the constraints of silicon technology. > Most mainframes of the time had rather elegant, straighforward instruction > sets. And what are the relative *quantities* involved? As well as $$$? They were designed for different purposes. > There's a point of view that microprocessors were a devolution in the field > of computer science, and I have to admit that it has some merit. Before > the 8008/8080, who was even fooling with single-user mono-tasking operating > systems as a serious effort? With mainfraimes we had graphics, database > management, multi-user, multi-tasking, advanced architectures and all > manner of work being done in basic computer science. Along comes the > microprocessor and the siren song of easy money causes some very bright > people to spend great chunks of their professional lives on MS-DOS, Windows > and other already-invented-for-mainframes stuff. Right now, I figure we're > somewhere in OS development on micros about where we were with a Spectra 70 > running VMOS. The problem *there* is that people were coerced into trying to make a device intended for one market serve another. Imagine the MPU had NOT come along when it did. Would folks have "coerced" mainframes to fit inside pinball machines? Or, under the hood in the automobile? Or, in the microwave oven? It would be a silly misapplication of that technology. You don't *need* (nor WANT) "graphics, database management, multi-user" in an appliance. OTOH, you *do* want it to fit in a few cubic inches, cost tens of dollars, run on a few watts and not require a DEC technician on call -- nor a support aggreement -- in case your microwave refuses to boil water for you today. The early (late 70's) "production" KRM's were Nova based. By the time you added the scanner to it, you had something the size of a WASHING MACHINE! No, the customer couldn't just "buy one and bring it $HOME/$WORK to use" -- someone went *with* it to get it running. And, was often "invited" to revisit it several times each year :> Replace the Nova with an MPU (actually, a couple since the speech was then moved to a DSP) and suddenly you've got a box that you can *mail* to a user -- and he/she can mail *back* (if there is a problem). Total cost of ownership drops tens of thousands of dollars. So, the $50K 1976 box is $3K in 2006 (dollars NOT adjusted for inflation!). > In another thread, the discussion is centering around Microkernels (been > there, done that on a mainframe) and the need to keep I/O drivers as part > of the kernel. Why? Why should the CPU even have access to I/O ports and > interrupts? Why doesn't every device have its own I/O processor with > access to CPU memory? Or better yet, why not a pool of communicating I/O > processors that can be allocated to the tasks at hand, leaving the CPU to > do what it does best? Been there, done that. You'll find it gets very expensive, very quickly (even using "cheap MPUs"). Those "device controllers" still need an OS... and, thus, ways to protect who accesses what parts of the code within that processor -- so the same issues exist; they've just been moved to the IO processor instead of the "main" processor. Unless, of course, you want to design a custom piece of silicon to control a special type of device -- but that limits what types of devices you can *have*; besides disks, tapes, etc. will you have audio devices? a "BT device" (to encapsulate the BT stack)? a "servo motor" device? a "compression force" device? etc. And, what about devices that are, by their very nature, "ethereal devices"? (e.g., on very small MPUs, I often build a "FPU device") > Is silicon now so expensive that we can't advance to > an idea that's more than 40 years old? No. But you need to apply different techniques to address those problems. You're ignoring the fact that MPU's have caused *other* approaches to problems that have been poorly (sloppily?) solved in mainframe approaches. E.g., in the 70's, a classic paper on grapheme-phoneme conversion was written (Elovitz, et al. NRL report). The algorithm implemented therein was written in SNOBOL. Used over a megabyte of "core" (VM, actually). I'm sure the authors had no idea of how fast their code was. Nor did they even *care* (apparently) about designing the algorithm efficiently -- even if those changes were TRIVIAL (e.g., if a "rule" handles 80% of the input cases, wouldn't you apply THAT rule, first?) But, try to put that algorithm into an MPU and suddenly you realize, "hey, I'm not going to throw 1MB at this trivial problem!" Instead, you end up with about 6KB of code -- including the dataset. I'm always amazed when I see a gcc process grow to tens of MB just because there's a big *array* in the code. Sure, it's nice to just pretend you have infinite VM. But, couldn't a different approach compile said code on a 1MB *floppy* system? And, without the "consumerish" devices that MPUs have made possible, how much *real* work on real-time would be done? Would the solutions be "ivory tower" approaches to the problem (e.g., "maintain a HUGE table of all processes, sorted by priority and earliest deadline, etc.")? Or, would they be more efficient approaches that fit into the resource-strapped devices that are typically used to implement same? > Forgive the rant, but other than bringing computers to the masses, do > microcomputers represent a significant forward movement in the state of the > art? Sure! Would MP3 players have ever left the "lab" if there wasn't a *cheap* way of making them? Would they have just been an interesting intellectual exercise? Would digital cameras have come along to exploit image compression technologies? Camera *phones*?? The "problem" with the MPU was putting it in a "computer". From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Aug 6 13:16:45 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 14:16:45 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D61B9A.7010302@neurotica.com> References: <200608060840230926.0A5B37B7@10.0.0.252> <44D61B9A.7010302@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608061416.45256.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 06 August 2006 12:40, Dave McGuire wrote: > When I read this paragraph, I wanted to stand up and cheer. You > and I think very, very much alike in this area. If I didn't have to > squander my time working like a dog just to keep the electric service > turned on, I'd be building systems just like that. Dude, just turn off *1* of your Crays for a week... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From segin2005 at gmail.com Sun Aug 6 13:52:08 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 14:52:08 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D61B9A.7010302@neurotica.com> References: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> <200608060840230926.0A5B37B7@10.0.0.252> <44D61B9A.7010302@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44D63A58.70406@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > The "already invented for mainframes" thing has big examples in the > minicomputer world as well. All this hoopla about SANs these days...we > had that on our VAXen in, what, 1980? This is nothing new! It should be worth noting that HP was still cranking out brand-new VAXen until about May of 2005, although it was all special-order, and most of them were hand-assembled. -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From segin2005 at gmail.com Sun Aug 6 13:52:08 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 14:52:08 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D61B9A.7010302@neurotica.com> References: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> <200608060840230926.0A5B37B7@10.0.0.252> <44D61B9A.7010302@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44D63A58.70406@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > The "already invented for mainframes" thing has big examples in the > minicomputer world as well. All this hoopla about SANs these days...we > had that on our VAXen in, what, 1980? This is nothing new! It should be worth noting that HP was still cranking out brand-new VAXen until about May of 2005, although it was all special-order, and most of them were hand-assembled. -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From segin2005 at gmail.com Sun Aug 6 13:57:01 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 14:57:01 -0400 Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... In-Reply-To: <200608061329.15940.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44D5572F.1010302@msu.edu> <200608061329.15940.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44D63B7D.7030108@gmail.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Saturday 05 August 2006 10:42 pm, Josh Dersch wrote: >>2. Archiving the tapes in a useful format. tar anyone? -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 6 14:05:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 12:05:14 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D62961.2080105@dakotacom.net> References: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> <200608060840230926.0A5B37B7@10.0.0.252> <44D62961.2080105@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> On 8/6/2006 at 10:39 AM Don wrote: >The "problem" with the MPU was putting it in a "computer". ...and that's really the nub of my argument. I have no quibble with the application of an MPU to play MP3s, run a scanner or traffic signal, but the huge mistake IMOHO, was trying to turn them into "Gemeral Purpose Computers". I'm not proposing that large-scale integration was wrong--it alone would reduce the size of your "washing machine" to a deskop box. Heck, my mouse has a PIC in it--but I'm not about to try to put a word processor or a DBMS on it. We're still living with the legacy of the 8080 and CP/M in Windows. Not your post, but Dave's. While it's true that there were a significant number of major differences between the 8008 and the 8080, the architecture from a software point of view was set in the 8008. Accumulator, B,C,D,E registers; H,L handled as a pair to address memory; basic instruction layout, etc. The addion of SP and 16-bit addressing was a welcome addition, as were 16 bit adds and loads and 256 I/O ports, but to my eye, the 8080 looked like a tarted-up 8008. One valuable aspect of the 8008 lost was the treatment of 00 and FF as HALT instructions. Also, I'm not saying that the CP1600 was a speed demon--AFAIK, aside fromt he Activision games, it found no general application. Yet, from a programming standpoint, the closest thing to it prior to the 68000 was the LSI-11 (not a speed demon either). Sometimes, the actions of the people inside the micro business made me wonder. When I put my first hard disk (a 14-inch Shugart) on an 8085, I noticed that there was no one offering disk backup utilities for micros. I still have the rejection letter (along with the 8" floppy) from Lifeboat saying that they didn't think there was any market for a hard disk backup package. What I found incredible was the reinvention of mistakes. How long was it before the micro database people realized that atomic logging of database operations was worse than useless--that one had to log entire transactions? Mainframe people knew that before there were even micros. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 6 14:09:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 12:09:03 -0700 Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... In-Reply-To: <44D63B7D.7030108@gmail.com> References: <44D5572F.1010302@msu.edu> <200608061329.15940.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D63B7D.7030108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608061209030677.0B1A46A2@10.0.0.252> On 8/6/2006 at 2:57 PM Segin wrote: >Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> On Saturday 05 August 2006 10:42 pm, Josh Dersch wrote: >>>2. Archiving the tapes in a useful format. >tar anyone? I'm afriad that you don't understand the issues. To produce an accurate archive of a tape, one must preserve things such as block sizes, labels, and filemarks. There are packages to do this, but tar isn't one of them. While tapes are a one-dimensional medium, there's more variation in physical structure than encountered on the typical disk. Cheers, Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Sun Aug 6 14:14:54 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 14:14:54 -0500 Subject: Radio Electronics Issues looking for a good home In-Reply-To: <44D12E0E.3020802@dsl.pipex.com> References: <44D11E41.9010401@jbrain.com> <44D12E0E.3020802@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <44D63FAE.9030106@jbrain.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Jim Brain wrote: >> Pretty much 1985 to when they quit (2000) There are some interesting >> computer and computer-related projects in them. Either way, they're >> free for shipping to whomever wants. If no one bites, they are >> hitting the recyling bin. > > How much to ship to the UK? Probably a lot :-) 80# of mags is a lot to get across the pond. The mags are spoken (and paid for), but thanks to the few that responded. I'm glad to see they are going to a good home. I've got some other old computer and electronics mags I'll offer up here, as soon as I get back from a business trip (some way old Infoworlds, Creative Computing, Popular Electronics, MicroComputer Journal, etc.) Mainly, I just want to see them go to good homes. Jim From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 6 14:52:00 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 12:52:00 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> References: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> <200608060840230926.0A5B37B7@10.0.0.252> <44D62961.2080105@dakotacom.net> <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D64860.2000007@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/6/2006 at 10:39 AM Don wrote: > >> The "problem" with the MPU was putting it in a "computer". > > ...and that's really the nub of my argument. I have no quibble with the > application of an MPU to play MP3s, run a scanner or traffic signal, but > the huge mistake IMOHO, was trying to turn them into "Gemeral Purpose Exactly. And the "PC" has now become little more than an "Internet Workstation" for The Masses (I wonder to what extent this is also true in Business?) If the Google vision materializes, we'll be back to the "mainframe with terminals" architecture -- though those "terminals" will be considerably more graphical and empowered AND the "mainframe" will undoubtedly be a cluster of boxes instead of a single chassis. > Computers". I'm not proposing that large-scale integration was wrong--it > alone would reduce the size of your "washing machine" to a deskop box. > Heck, my mouse has a PIC in it--but I'm not about to try to put a word > processor or a DBMS on it. We're still living with the legacy of the 8080 > and CP/M in Windows. Yes. Amusing that we don't have "USER0" and "USER7" areas on C:, D:, .... :-( > Not your post, but Dave's. While it's true that there were a significant > number of major differences between the 8008 and the 8080, the architecture > from a software point of view was set in the 8008. Accumulator, B,C,D,E > registers; H,L handled as a pair to address memory; basic instruction > layout, etc. The addion of SP and 16-bit addressing was a welcome > addition, as were 16 bit adds and loads and 256 I/O ports, but to my eye, > the 8080 looked like a tarted-up 8008. One valuable aspect of the 8008 > lost was the treatment of 00 and FF as HALT instructions. Well, put a 0x76 at 0x0038 and 0xFF is effectively handled. I particularly *like* the fact that 0x00 is NOP -- it lets you scribble over portions of PROMs that you no longer want without having to scrap the device entirely. > Also, I'm not saying that the CP1600 was a speed demon--AFAIK, aside fromt > he Activision games, it found no general application. Yet, from a > programming standpoint, the closest thing to it prior to the 68000 was the > LSI-11 (not a speed demon either). > > Sometimes, the actions of the people inside the micro business made me > wonder. When I put my first hard disk (a 14-inch Shugart) on an 8085, I > noticed that there was no one offering disk backup utilities for micros. I > still have the rejection letter (along with the 8" floppy) from Lifeboat > saying that they didn't think there was any market for a hard disk backup > package. What I found incredible was the reinvention of mistakes. How > long was it before the micro database people realized that atomic logging > of database operations was worse than useless--that one had to log entire > transactions? Mainframe people knew that before there were even micros. This is largely a consequence of the fact that the MPU-based world essentially "started over". E.g., why do we have limits on the sizes of disk volumes (even in the *Sun* world?). Why do we have Y2K problems? I mean, can't people *see* that disks WILL get bigger, that the calendar *will* continue beyond Dec 31, 1999, etc.? Sure, some of it is resource-bound (e.g., who would need anything bigger than FAT12 for a ~1MB floppy?). But, other things are false economies brought about by lack of vision and laziness on the part of implementers. (are Suns *that* squeezed for resources that they have to save a few *bits* to force the IPL to reside in the first 2GB of a drive??) I don't think the problem is the MPU as much as it is the fact that "competition" has disappeared from *that* (desktop) marketplace. It's just one or two architectures that are being rehashed over and over and over and... Some of the earlier architectures were much more innovative and expressive... but they just went away. As did many of the OS's and applications. The same is true of even newer "inventions". They get driven to "marketable" products at the expense of good features, reliability, etc. (e.g., Inferno is a neat idea that is quickly being subverted by market pressures). Maybe we should al have become PLUMBERS! After all, WC's haven't changed *that* much in the past 100 years... :> From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Aug 6 14:55:04 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 15:55:04 -0400 Subject: Classic Mac emulation (was Re: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.)) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 06 Aug 2006 07:27:25 PDT." Message-ID: <200608061955.k76Jt4Ek001329@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> >>(ugg. i've worked on lap drivers talking directly to the scc. that >>code was extremely timing critical.) >> >>thinking about writing an scc chip emulator makes my head hurt. > >Are you talking about Appletalk over serial? I meant over ethernet. Yes, I ment localtalk. Sorry. I would think over ethernet would be pretty simple. -brad From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 6 15:08:41 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 13:08:41 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D64860.2000007@dakotacom.net> References: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> <200608060840230926.0A5B37B7@10.0.0.252> <44D62961.2080105@dakotacom.net> <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> <44D64860.2000007@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608061308410632.0B50DF04@10.0.0.252> On 8/6/2006 at 12:52 PM Don wrote: > Maybe we should al have become PLUMBERS! After >all, WC's haven't changed *that* much in the past 100 years... :> LOL! My wife just got back from a side trip to the hardware store (we still have one) for some "8 penny finishing nails". She returned with the right stuff, but she apologized because "they had only "8d" nails". Cheers, Chuck From ray at arachelian.com Sun Aug 6 17:10:54 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 18:10:54 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608061332.29131.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> <200608061332.29131.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44D668EE.5050300@arachelian.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I'm also quite comfortable with the z80, and sure wouldn't mind finding some > way to actually get paid for working with them... :-) > There's nothing wrong with the 8080/Z80 lines. For the era they are in, their opcodes are reasonable, and not worse than the 6809 or 6502. Not as clean as they could be, but not so bad either. When you attempt, however, to build another chip, the 8088 and still keep compatibility with the 8080, that's where you're starting to make the wrong turn. Now, the 8086 itself, is also reasonably ok, but then, you get into weird issues where you can only use some registers for some operations, but not others. Then, the next wrong turn was the 386 line. Once you go into 32 bit mode, the old 8 and 16 bit opcodes no longer make any sense and the whole thing just gets ugly. Intel should have gone to a new set of opcodes altogether - a clean 32 bit set of opcodes with enough registers. To provide an example: SPARC is a 32 bit RISC architecture. Sun could have really screwed things up when they went to 64 bits. Instead, they did the right thing. They extended all of the registers to 64 bits, and added a new 64 bit status register. So your code is backwards compatible to 32 bit code, however, with a simple switch, it can run in 64 bits without getting all ugly, without things like segment registers and weirdo addressing modes. It started out cleanly from the start, and this perhaps helped them move to 64 bits more easily. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Aug 6 17:22:58 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 16:22:58 -0600 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: References: <44D54A92.7030208@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44D66BC2.4090408@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Heh... I've been paid to write 6502, PDP-11, 68000, VAX, and x86 > assembly over the years (mostly in the 80s). I have to agree that the > x86 was nowhere near as pleasant as any of the others. I thought the x86 was great for programming, as long as you have 64k data and code space. Still for simple programing a PDP-8 with 4K of memory can't be beat. > -ethan > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 6 17:36:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 15:36:13 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D668EE.5050300@arachelian.com> References: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> <200608061332.29131.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D668EE.5050300@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200608061536130749.0BD7EEFC@10.0.0.252> On 8/6/2006 at 6:10 PM Ray Arachelian wrote: >When you attempt, however, to build another chip, the 8088 and still >keep compatibility with the 8080, that's where you're starting to make >the wrong turn. Now, the 8086 itself, is also reasonably ok, but then, >you get into weird issues where you can only use some registers for some >operations, but not others. What drove home the difference of the 8086 and 8080 to me was the offer by the local sales office to translate some 8080 code to 8086, with the promise of being (a) smaller and (b) faster. After crashing the translation utility for about 2 weeks, we finally got a good automated translation that refused to give the correct answers--and it was over twice the size of the 8080 code and a bit slower. We decided then that automated translation wasn't reliable enough to give us something useful. We recoded entire products. I can't say that the code was smaller, but it did run faster (we were comparing 5 MHz 8085 vs. 5 MHz 8086). Sorcim maintained the 8086 edition of SuperCalc as big hunks translated 8080 code, mixed with native 8086 code for critical sections, but they had their own translator and development tools--and some sections were also written in Pascal/M. All in all, the 8086 might have been better off with an architectural overhaul. I thought it genius that the 68K had 32-bit registers. Cheers, From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 6 17:05:05 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 23:05:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Truth (was: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <20060805171532.V80255@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 5, 6 05:29:07 pm Message-ID: > Tony is just pulling your leg. Some sort of newbie hazing? > The reality is that the CPU runs on compressed magic smoke. > Proof of that is that during some kinds of electrical problems, > the magic smoke can leak out, and it never works quite right > after the magic smoke leaks out. But doesn't that apply to all electronic components, not just CPUs? Certainly the resistor I was using earlier today stopped working after the magic smoke came out (so I assume said smoke is what made it work). [...] > BTW2, the biggest appeal (AND reason to hate) 386 level machines, > is that they are the oldest, slowest, and simplest machines that > are instruction set compatible with most of the modern software. > It is fun to watch Windoze run on a 386. Kinda like turning the > crankshaft of a partially disassembled engine, and watching the > interrelationships of the parts moving. Watching it in "slow Or to make it on-topic here, turning an ASR33 over by hand. For anyone who has such a machine, or any other mechancial teleprinter, I strongly recoemnd doing this. > motion" is a good way to find portions of the code that need to > be optimized. Indeed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 6 17:28:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 23:28:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D54A92.7030208@arachelian.com> from "Ray Arachelian" at Aug 5, 6 09:49:06 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Hehe... abracadrabra. > >> > > > > All I can say is that it's a wonderful feeling when you finally > > understand how a CPU works at this level. All the magic has gone away, > > everything makes sense again. > > > Yeah, CPU's are really very simple. Here's my half drunken rant about > them. Skip this if you know how CPU's work. :-) > > Basically, CPU's fetch opcodes (instructions) and data, then decode said > instruction, execute them, and increment their Program Counter register > (or change it to a new value), and repeat. The ones with microcode (or > RISC) are easiest to understand, although you don't get to see the > microcode. That very much depends on the CPU. If the CPU is many chips (not a single package) with microcode in PROMs, there's nothing to stop you desoldering said PROMs and reading them out. I've done that, then written a disassembler for the microode instructions and worked out what was going on. And some CPUs, the PERQ being probably the most common example, load their microcode from disk at power-on. In which case you might even get a mcirocode assembler and disassember as standard OS tools. If not, you can write them. > > They all are pretty much similar in that they have a register called PC > (or IR) that point to the currently executing opcode. > > RISC ones and microcoded ones use the bits in the opcode to turn on > circuits that do what the opcode says. With some CPU's you can almost > "see" the circuitry that does this by looking at the opcode tables. This is rather a higher level tham I was considering it. I was thinking more along the lines of 'Decoder U55 decodes the 3-bit field consisting of micorocode bits 23-25. Output 4 of this decoder enables OR gate U27c which passes the delayed clock to the clock input of the D-type U71a. This stores the carry output of the ALU, and acts as a carry flag' Yes, I do often consider CPUs at that level > > Granted, they can be complex if you're dealing with x86, but even so, if > you were able to see what the x86 ones really do underneath the the > layer that's masked, each piece is simple. It's just that there are > many, many, many pieces, which make for a complex device. The problem is that most books describe the simple parts (gates, flip-flops), then the final result (CPU, at the level of 'fetch an instruction, decode it, increment PC'), but miss out the bit in between. Exactly how you can link up gates and FFs to make a CPU. [...] > A CPU is hooked up to a bunch of memory. The memory is addressable > linearly (on most CPU's) and some of it is ROM because RAM loses it's > data on power off. The PERQ has no ROM in the memory map (and no, there is no frontpanel where you toggle in a boot loader by hand). What there is is a little microcode PROM that overlays the bottom part of the microcode RAM. This PROM contains enough microode to read the boot sector from disk into the mcirocode store (said boot sector of course contains microcode), that then reads in some more microcode, which reads in the OS into user RAM. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 6 17:32:37 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 23:32:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... In-Reply-To: <44D5572F.1010302@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Aug 5, 6 07:42:55 pm Message-ID: > > For taking care of #1, as far as I can tell the drive works except for a > rubber wheel that's turned to this lovely gooey tar. I don't > necessarily _need_ to fix the drive, since I have a compatible > replacement, but I'd like to keep the system as original as possible so > if it's possible to fix without too much work I'd like to do that. The > tape drive in question is an Archive 5945S-1. Anyone have any idea how > feasible it is to find a replacement wheel for this drive? Any good > places to look that you'd recommend? I've not had to do that drive yet (although I have a few of them, and related units, that will need doing soon). But the normal tricks for rollers that have turned to good are to : 1) Use silicone rubber tubing over the original hub. Maybe scrape it down to the right dfameter if necessary 2) Several layers of heatshrink sleeving over the original hub. I've never had any success with this method, others claim to use it 3) Silicone rubber O-rings in grooves machined in the original or a replacement hub. I use this with great success on HP caculator card readers (including the desktop models) -tony From ray at arachelian.com Sun Aug 6 17:50:50 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 18:50:50 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D66BC2.4090408@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <44D54A92.7030208@arachelian.com> <44D66BC2.4090408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44D6724A.3080808@arachelian.com> woodelf wrote: > I thought the x86 was great for programming, as long as you have 64k > data and code space. Still for simple programing a PDP-8 with 4K > of memory can't be beat. Yes, that's the problem. What they tried to do is akin to taking a 2D being from flatland (limited to 64K) and placing it into a 3D world. To do this, they created multiple planes (segments). So you basically still have a 16 bit processor, but it can access a lot more memory - 1MB instead of 64KB. But it also gets expensive to do so. You now have to track the segment number for each 64K chunk of memory, and your data structures are limited to 64K, so your code suffers, or gets more complex. Worse yet, you're wasting a bunch of useful registers from being used as general purpose registers. So now you have a bunch of special registers just for segments. A far cleaner approach would be to use 32 bit registers to begin with. Then, you're not limited to 16 bit segments, nor do you have to worry about segments. See the 68000. Yes, being able to access 1MB is a huge increase over 64KB, but IBM decided to put ROM and Video I/O addresses right smack above 640KB, which made sense, this was 10x bigger than the current 64KB machines of the day, hence "640KB ought to be enough for anybody." But it turned out to be a problem after all, one that was solved in and old way - bank switching. This was driven by Lotus 123 mainly, which formed the LIM (Lotus, Intel, Microsoft) standard for extended memory. Ugly, but it worked for a little while. Of course, 386's came out, and guess what, we were still stuck with 640KB of memory, even though the 386 was a 32 bit processor. And even though Windows 3.1 had a win32s API, it was still painful to access memory properly - at least if you weren't using Windows NT or OS/2. And that 640K of RAM was a big problem too as you loaded more and more TSR's and device drivers in memory. Turns out there were some holes in the memory above 640KB so you could remap some of that for TSR's and device drivers, hence the LOADHI stuff. The fun part was getting "out of memory" errors even when your machine had 8MB of RAM. Over all, the "segmented" way of doing things turned out to an ugly nasty hack. It turned out, it wasn't so good for programming after all. Think about how many hours lots of people wasted on configuring their config.sys, configuring things like EMM386, and QEMM and so forth. Many countless hours, or human lifetimes even, wasted because of a very poor design decision - one that still affects modern machines to this day to some extent - at least at power on. From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 6 18:06:47 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 19:06:47 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> References: <44D62961.2080105@dakotacom.net> <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608061906.47886.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 06 August 2006 03:05 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/6/2006 at 10:39 AM Don wrote: > >The "problem" with the MPU was putting it in a "computer". > > ...and that's really the nub of my argument. I have no quibble with the > application of an MPU to play MP3s, run a scanner or traffic signal, but > the huge mistake IMOHO, was trying to turn them into "Gemeral Purpose > Computers". I'm not proposing that large-scale integration was wrong--it > alone would reduce the size of your "washing machine" to a deskop box. > Heck, my mouse has a PIC in it--but I'm not about to try to put a word > processor or a DBMS on it. We're still living with the legacy of the 8080 > and CP/M in Windows. Yeah, but... Back around 1970 or 1971 I got a hold of my first TTL data book, which I still have. And in times when I had some leisure to play with ideas, I worked my way laboriously through some vague notions of what it might take to "build a computer". What info I could find back then was mostly of a very general nature, out of library books and such, and when it came to actual machine architecture I really had no clue whatsoever. And the best I could come up with, for something that promised to be vaguely functional, would've used about 800-900 TTL chips. It's probably a good thing that I never actually started to build such a thing. I was rather pleased to see a short mention in a magazine at one point back there someplace of a guy's homebrew TTL computer, which as it turned out also used about 900 TTL chips. There was a picture, of this thing spread out across the floor, where his cat had knocked it (and having a cat here that's currently into sometimes being a real PITA when she goes into "predator mode" I can understand now how such a thing would happen. :-) As the article pointed out, when it ended up there it still worked, so he left it there. That was one heck of a lot of boards and wire-wrapping and power distribution and cabinetry and not very much flexibility and probably a whole lot of other issues that I was not aware of in my relatively ignorant state in those days. Then that "Mark-8" was published in Radio-Electronics. And the Altair a bit later. And when I first looked at the 8080, I really wasn't all that impressed. I mean, you had to feed the thing those silly "machine code" instructions while the thing I'd been envisioning back then would take it in _ASCII_ (!) which, of course, was a lot of the reason for the inflexibility, but I didn't know any better back then. But eventually I came around... Mostly because you could do SO much more with not really all that much in terms of hardware. > Not your post, but Dave's. While it's true that there were a significant > number of major differences between the 8008 and the 8080, the architecture > from a software point of view was set in the 8008. Accumulator, B,C,D,E > registers; H,L handled as a pair to address memory; basic instruction > layout, etc. The addion of SP and 16-bit addressing was a welcome > addition, as were 16 bit adds and loads and 256 I/O ports, but to my eye, > the 8080 looked like a tarted-up 8008. Yup. > One valuable aspect of the 8008 lost was the treatment of 00 and FF as HALT > instructions. I'd still liked to have seen somewhat more orthagonality in the instruction set, and maybe a bit additional, like relative jumps, one of the things I do like about the z80. I'd like to be able to use DE or BC as many ways as you can use HL for example. The z80 added stuff I've never personally found all that useful otherwise, and have never used the index registers (yet) or the alternate set, all that much. And the lack of orthagonality or symmetry is something that I've also noticed in a lot of the peripheral chips as well. Write-only registers that I can't read back? WTF? Address space was never that much of a scarce commodity as far as I can see. > Also, I'm not saying that the CP1600 was a speed demon--AFAIK, aside fromt > he Activision games, it found no general application. Yet, from a > programming standpoint, the closest thing to it prior to the 68000 was the > LSI-11 (not a speed demon either). The LSI-11 was my first exposure to a "real" computer in terms of something I could actually get my hands on and try and do stuff with. I think I even still have a "quick reference card" in my desk somewhere. And although the hardware was very weird by comparison with what I'd already wrapped my brain around (and my one attempt to interface to that bus was not successful), the software side of it seemed *so* much better than that intel stuff. Of course, trying to get a grip on RT-11 and the stuff they seemed to sort of assumed you'd know about was yet another matter. > Sometimes, the actions of the people inside the micro business made me > wonder. Sometimes? :-) > When I put my first hard disk (a 14-inch Shugart) on an 8085, I noticed that > there was no one offering disk backup utilities for micros. I still have > the rejection letter (along with the 8" floppy) from Lifeboat saying that > they didn't think there was any market for a hard disk backup package. What > I found incredible was the reinvention of mistakes. How long was it before > the micro database people realized that atomic logging of database > operations was worse than useless--that one had to log entire transactions? > Mainframe people knew that before there were even micros. Mainframe and mini people knew about a lot of stuff, and I'm sure that this is only one item on a potentially very long list, but somehow that knowledge never seemed to transfer over. For some reason I'm reminded of the stage kids go through when they get to a certain age (and ain't *I* sounding like "the old phart" here :-) where all of a sudden they start having all these *wonderful* insights into all sorts of things, and come to the (usually erroneous) conclusion that their parents and other people "just don't see it" for some reason, and usually don't have a clue about what else might be considered in whatever the context is that they might perhaps be missing. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 6 18:15:09 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 16:15:09 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608061536130749.0BD7EEFC@10.0.0.252> References: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> <200608061332.29131.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D668EE.5050300@arachelian.com> <200608061536130749.0BD7EEFC@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D677FD.5020202@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > All in all, the 8086 might have been better off with an architectural > overhaul. I thought it genius that the 68K had 32-bit registers. Though annoying that they had to partition them into ADDRESS and DATA :-( From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 6 18:17:10 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 16:17:10 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608061308410632.0B50DF04@10.0.0.252> References: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> <200608060840230926.0A5B37B7@10.0.0.252> <44D62961.2080105@dakotacom.net> <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> <44D64860.2000007@dakotacom.net> <200608061308410632.0B50DF04@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D67876.2000703@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/6/2006 at 12:52 PM Don wrote: > >> Maybe we should al have become PLUMBERS! After >> all, WC's haven't changed *that* much in the past 100 years... :> > > LOL! My wife just got back from a side trip to the hardware store (we > still have one) for some "8 penny finishing nails". She returned with the > right stuff, but she apologized because "they had only "8d" nails". And try to explain to her why 10-penny nails aren't called "dime" nails ;-) From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 6 18:16:05 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 19:16:05 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D64860.2000007@dakotacom.net> References: <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> <44D64860.2000007@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608061916.05668.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 06 August 2006 03:52 pm, Don wrote: <...> > If the Google vision materializes, we'll be back to the "mainframe with > terminals" architecture -- though those "terminals" will be considerably > more graphical and empowered AND the "mainframe" will undoubtedly be a > cluster of boxes instead of a single chassis. Any of you guys done anything with clustering? I'm seeing references to it in the linux context but don't know what if anything I could apply it to offhand. > > Computers". I'm not proposing that large-scale integration was wrong--it > > alone would reduce the size of your "washing machine" to a deskop box. > > Heck, my mouse has a PIC in it--but I'm not about to try to put a word > > processor or a DBMS on it. We're still living with the legacy of the > > 8080 and CP/M in Windows. > > Yes. Amusing that we don't have "USER0" and "USER7" areas on > C:, D:, .... :-( OTOH, after my initial exposure to DOS (and for quite some time after that time during which I was still using CP/M) I thought that subdirectories were a rather neat concept and that it should be possible to implement them in something that was pretty close to CP/M. The concept is already partially dealt with in terms of "library files", though that could've gone further than it did. Maybe someday I'll return to that to play with the idea. > > Not your post, but Dave's. While it's true that there were a significant > > number of major differences between the 8008 and the 8080, the > > architecture from a software point of view was set in the 8008. > > Accumulator, B,C,D,E registers; H,L handled as a pair to address memory; > > basic instruction layout, etc. The addion of SP and 16-bit addressing > > was a welcome addition, as were 16 bit adds and loads and 256 I/O ports, > > but to my eye, the 8080 looked like a tarted-up 8008. One valuable > > aspect of the 8008 lost was the treatment of 00 and FF as HALT > > instructions. > > Well, put a 0x76 at 0x0038 and 0xFF is effectively handled. > I particularly *like* the fact that 0x00 is NOP -- it lets > you scribble over portions of PROMs that you no longer want > without having to scrap the device entirely. OTOH I like the idea of unwritten eprom locations showing up as they do, it makes for a handy "oops!" vector without too much coding needed. <...> > This is largely a consequence of the fact that the MPU-based > world essentially "started over". Indeed. > E.g., why do we have limits on the sizes of disk volumes (even in the *Sun* > world?). Why do we have Y2K problems? I mean, can't people *see* that disks > WILL get bigger, that the calendar *will* continue beyond Dec 31, 1999, > etc.? Good question, and one that I've never seen anything resembling a good answer to. Or, "What were the assumptions implicit in this?" <...> > Some of the earlier architectures were much more innovative > and expressive... but they just went away. As did many of > the OS's and applications. The same is true of even newer > "inventions". They get driven to "marketable" products > at the expense of good features, reliability, etc. Got any specific exsmples you'd care to kick around some? > (e.g., Inferno is a neat idea that is quickly being subverted by market > pressures). Not sure what you're referring to here. > Maybe we should al have become PLUMBERS! After > all, WC's haven't changed *that* much in the past 100 years... :> Heh. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 6 18:17:48 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 16:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Truth (was: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060806160906.N26433@shell.lmi.net> > > Tony is just pulling your leg. Some sort of newbie hazing? > > The reality is that the CPU runs on compressed magic smoke. > > Proof of that is that during some kinds of electrical problems, > > the magic smoke can leak out, and it never works quite right > > after the magic smoke leaks out. On Sun, 6 Aug 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > But doesn't that apply to all electronic components, not just CPUs? > Certainly the resistor I was using earlier today stopped working after > the magic smoke came out (so I assume said smoke is what made it work). I'm trying to figure out how to make pneumatic (NOT hydraulic) gates. Once I can build a half adder and full adder with compressed smoke (no mirrors), THEN I'll be ready to start really learning how digital electronics works. > > BTW2, the biggest appeal (AND reason to hate) 386 level machines, > Or to make it on-topic here, turning an ASR33 over by hand. For anyone > who has such a machine, or any other mechancial teleprinter, I strongly > recoemnd doing this. yes, INDEED! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 6 18:18:35 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 19:18:35 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D668EE.5050300@arachelian.com> References: <200608061332.29131.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D668EE.5050300@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200608061918.35224.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 06 August 2006 06:10 pm, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Now, the 8086 itself, is also reasonably ok, but then, you get into weird > issues where you can only use some registers for some operations, but not > others. That's one of the things about these parts that's always bothered me. > Then, the next wrong turn was the 386 line. Once you go into 32 bit > mode, the old 8 and 16 bit opcodes no longer make any sense and the > whole thing just gets ugly. Intel should have gone to a new set of > opcodes altogether - a clean 32 bit set of opcodes with enough registers. Yes. > To provide an example: SPARC is a 32 bit RISC architecture. Sun could > have really screwed things up when they went to 64 bits. Instead, they > did the right thing. They extended all of the registers to 64 bits, and > added a new 64 bit status register. So your code is backwards > compatible to 32 bit code, however, with a simple switch, it can run in > 64 bits without getting all ugly, without things like segment registers > and weirdo addressing modes. It started out cleanly from the start, and > this perhaps helped them move to 64 bits more easily. Sounds good to me, though I'm not familiar with that stuff, or a lot of what else gets talked about in here. But learning about it all is a part of why I'm in here anyway, so that's not much of a problem except for those times when I just don't follow stuff... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 6 18:27:19 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 19:27:19 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D6724A.3080808@arachelian.com> References: <44D66BC2.4090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <44D6724A.3080808@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200608061927.19935.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 06 August 2006 06:50 pm, Ray Arachelian wrote: > A far cleaner approach would be to use 32 bit registers to begin with. > Then, you're not limited to 16 bit segments, nor do you have to worry > about segments. See the 68000. Which is exactly why I have one or two of those chips around with the thoughts of maybe someday playing with them, a thought that I've *never* had with regard to the x86 parts, which I'll just _use_ as a part of an already-made system. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 6 18:31:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 16:31:13 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D677FD.5020202@dakotacom.net> References: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> <200608061332.29131.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D668EE.5050300@arachelian.com> <200608061536130749.0BD7EEFC@10.0.0.252> <44D677FD.5020202@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608061631130714.0C0A4979@10.0.0.252> On 8/6/2006 at 4:15 PM Don wrote: >Though annoying that they had to partition them into ADDRESS >and DATA :-( Ah, I'd done my time on the CDC 6000-series and it seemed pretty natural to me, even if changing an address register didn't result in a load or store of the corresponding data register. I wonder what an outsider would have made of 6000 assembly code? "SA6 A6" for example... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 6 18:34:23 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 16:34:23 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D64860.2000007@dakotacom.net> References: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> <200608060840230926.0A5B37B7@10.0.0.252> <44D62961.2080105@dakotacom.net> <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> <44D64860.2000007@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608061634230467.0C0D2EB2@10.0.0.252> On 8/6/2006 at 12:52 PM Don wrote: >Yes. Amusing that we don't have "USER0" and "USER7" areas on >C:, D:, .... :-( That's because SCP/MS got rid of the first byte of the CP/M directory entry. leaving those writing unerase utilities to ask you to guess the first character of the file name... ;) Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 6 18:43:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 16:43:57 -0700 Subject: Truth (was: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <20060806160906.N26433@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060806160906.N26433@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200608061643570822.0C15F246@10.0.0.252> On 8/6/2006 at 4:17 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >I'm trying to figure out how to make pneumatic (NOT hydraulic) gates. >Once I can build a half adder and full adder with compressed smoke >(no mirrors), THEN I'll be ready to start really learning how >digital electronics works. Get yourself a good book on fluidics. IIRC, a fluidic computer was supposed to replace electronics in rugged environment situations. I spent a good part of my college summers working as a technician on pneumatic instrumentation. It's actually pretty surprising what one can do with pistons, diaphragms and nozzles. We had integrators, differentiators, square-root-extractors and lots and lots of copper tubing. But that was all analogue. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 6 18:46:30 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 16:46:30 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D67876.2000703@dakotacom.net> References: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> <200608060840230926.0A5B37B7@10.0.0.252> <44D62961.2080105@dakotacom.net> <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> <44D64860.2000007@dakotacom.net> <200608061308410632.0B50DF04@10.0.0.252> <44D67876.2000703@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608061646300832.0C1847F8@10.0.0.252> On 8/6/2006 at 4:17 PM Don wrote: >And try to explain to her why 10-penny nails aren't called >"dime" nails ;-) Or why 12d nails aren't called "1 shilling" nails.... From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 6 19:04:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 17:04:58 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608061906.47886.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44D62961.2080105@dakotacom.net> <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> <200608061906.47886.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608061704580806.0C292FFD@10.0.0.252> On 8/6/2006 at 7:06 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Back around 1970 or 1971 I got a hold of my first TTL data book, which I >still have. And in times when I had some leisure to play with ideas, I >worked my way laboriously through some vague notions of what it might take >to "build a computer". What info I could find back then was mostly of a very >general nature, out of library books and such, and when it came to >actual machine architecture I really had no clue whatsoever. And the best I >could come up with, for something that promised to be vaguely functional, >would've used about 800-900 TTL chips. It's probably a good thing that I >never actually started to build such a thing. Could that be because you approached the problem of how to build a simple computer the wrong way? What if your design had been bit-serial, for example? The PB 250 of circa 1961 used only 400 transistors and 2500 diodes for a 22 bit word and 16KW of memory. Back when I was thinking about making my own machine, I'd come to the conclusion that bit-serial was about the only way I could manage it. Cheers, Chuck From vp at drexel.edu Sun Aug 6 19:17:12 2006 From: vp at drexel.edu (Vassilis PREVELAKIS) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 20:17:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: vintage HP-87 system with additional equipment Message-ID: <200608070017.k770HCnj023337@dune.cs.drexel.edu> david page wrote: > [...]is there a website to find out possible market value and maybe > a buyer? This is what I had acquired: > > Hewlett Packard- HP-87 > [... series 80 stuff ...] I'd say eBay is your best bet. Search for completed auctions which will give you the closing prices. You have to decide whether you want sell the whole thing as one item or separately. The all-in-one will likely fetch less than the items sold separately, but you will save a lot of time (setting up the auctions, dealing with buyers, packaging the stuff, etc.) , plus you will not have any leftover stuff. For more info on the HP-87 and other HP Series 80 computers check: www.series80.org Series 80 manuals, programs, HOWTOs etc. www.hpmuseum.net Australian HP Computer Museum www.hpmuseum.org Museum of HP calculators **vp From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 6 20:08:26 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 21:08:26 -0400 Subject: Truth (was: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <200608061643570822.0C15F246@10.0.0.252> References: <20060806160906.N26433@shell.lmi.net> <200608061643570822.0C15F246@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608062108.26974.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 06 August 2006 07:43 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Get yourself a good book on fluidics. IIRC, a fluidic computer was > supposed to replace electronics in rugged environment situations. Isn't that how an automatic transmission is supposed to work? Although they apparently have electronics in the newer ones... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 6 20:10:42 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 21:10:42 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608061704580806.0C292FFD@10.0.0.252> References: <200608061906.47886.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608061704580806.0C292FFD@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608062110.42408.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 06 August 2006 08:04 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/6/2006 at 7:06 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >Back around 1970 or 1971 I got a hold of my first TTL data book, which I > >still have. And in times when I had some leisure to play with ideas, I > >worked my way laboriously through some vague notions of what it might take > >to "build a computer". What info I could find back then was mostly of a > >very general nature, out of library books and such, and when it came to > >actual machine architecture I really had no clue whatsoever. And the best > >I could come up with, for something that promised to be vaguely > >functional, would've used about 800-900 TTL chips. It's probably a good > > thing that I never actually started to build such a thing. > > Could that be because you approached the problem of how to build a simple > computer the wrong way? I have no doubt whatsoever from this point of view now that there was an awful lot of what I was thinking back then that was totally wrong. And I'm afraid of someday finding one or more of my old notebooks and confirming that. :-) > What if your design had been bit-serial, for example? The PB 250 of circa > 1961 used only 400 transistors and 2500 diodes for a 22 bit word and 16KW of > memory. Back when I was thinking about making my own machine, I'd come to > the conclusion that bit-serial was about the only way I could manage it. I'm not sure if I was even aware of the concept of bit-serial back then. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 6 20:33:29 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 18:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Truth (was: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <200608062108.26974.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20060806160906.N26433@shell.lmi.net> <200608061643570822.0C15F246@10.0.0.252> <200608062108.26974.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20060806182524.F26433@shell.lmi.net> > > > I'm trying to figure out how to make pneumatic (NOT hydraulic) > > > gates. > On Sunday 06 August 2006 07:43 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Get yourself a good book on fluidics. IIRC, a fluidic computer was > > supposed to replace electronics in rugged environment situations. > On Sun, 6 Aug 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Isn't that how an automatic transmission is supposed to work? Although they > apparently have electronics in the newer ones... Yes, but, ... I want pneumatic, NOT hydraulic. Hydraulics are normally built around a relatively non-compressible fluid, which makes for some minor changes in the "circuitry". ("Bleeding" a hydraulic system is to remove the compressible content.) The magic smoke is obviously compressed. Some very tiny components can release enormous amounts of it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ray at arachelian.com Sun Aug 6 21:41:36 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 22:41:36 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608061927.19935.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44D66BC2.4090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <44D6724A.3080808@arachelian.com> <200608061927.19935.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44D6A860.1030908@arachelian.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Sunday 06 August 2006 06:50 pm, Ray Arachelian wrote: > >> A far cleaner approach would be to use 32 bit registers to begin with. >> Then, you're not limited to 16 bit segments, nor do you have to worry >> about segments. See the 68000. >> > > Which is exactly why I have one or two of those chips around with the thoughts > of maybe someday playing with them, a thought that I've *never* had with > regard to the x86 parts, which I'll just _use_ as a part of an already-made > system Absolutely. The 68000 is an amazing little chip when you compare it to the 6800 and 6502's that it evolved itself from. You can sort of get a feel from this from this journal: http://linux.monroeccc.edu/~paulrsm/dg/dg.htm DTACK Grounded was a Journal that was pushing a plug in board to Commodore Pet's and Apple II's and possibly other 8 bit systems to enable a 68000 to run inside of them. The differences between the 68K and the host they live inside of are huge. It's worth a read to get a feel of the excitement the 68K caused back in the day when it was introduced. Some of it is very funny, there's one issue where the author compares an Intel FPU to the 68000 running software floating point routines, and guess what, the 68000 actually ran FASTER! :-) From ray at arachelian.com Sun Aug 6 21:47:23 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 22:47:23 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D6A9BB.8080007@arachelian.com> Tony Duell wrote: > That very much depends on the CPU. If the CPU is many chips (not a single > package) with microcode in PROMs, there's nothing to stop you desoldering > said PROMs and reading them out. I've done that, then written a > disassembler for the microode instructions and worked out what was going on. > True, but you don't find CPU's made of discrete logic these days, so it makes it very difficult to get at the microcode. > And some CPUs, the PERQ being probably the most common example, load > their microcode from disk at power-on. In which case you might even get a > mcirocode assembler and disassember as standard OS tools. If not, you can > write them. This is one machine I've been wishing for, for quite some time. Were there any emulators of these? Are there enough docs, schematics and copies of the software online somewhere? Would be sad to lose this machine to the ravages of time. > This is rather a higher level tham I was considering it. I was thinking > more along the lines of 'Decoder U55 decodes the 3-bit field consisting > of micorocode bits 23-25. Output 4 of this decoder enables OR gate U27c > which passes the delayed clock to the clock input of the D-type U71a. > This stores the carry output of the ALU, and acts as a carry flag' > > Yes, I do often consider CPUs at that level > Wow. You da man! ;-) > The problem is that most books describe the simple parts (gates, > flip-flops), then the final result (CPU, at the level of 'fetch an > instruction, decode it, increment PC'), but miss out the bit in between. > Exactly how you can link up gates and FFs to make a CPU. > > [...] > I do recall that my college book on computer architectures actually went into this detail. I'll go and dig it up if I still have it if you'd like to know its title. > The PERQ has no ROM in the memory map (and no, there is no frontpanel > where you toggle in a boot loader by hand). What there is is a little > microcode PROM that overlays the bottom part of the microcode RAM. This > PROM contains enough microode to read the boot sector from disk into the > mcirocode store (said boot sector of course contains microcode), that > then reads in some more microcode, which reads in the OS into user RAM. > Sweet! Reminds me of the Xerox Star where it uses an 8085 to load code into a custom made bit-sliced microcoded CPU, and even allows individual applications to roll their own microcode... From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 6 22:52:05 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 23:52:05 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608060840230926.0A5B37B7@10.0.0.252> References: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> <200608060840230926.0A5B37B7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > In another thread, the discussion is centering around Microkernels (been > there, done that on a mainframe) and the need to keep I/O drivers as part > of the kernel. Why? Why should the CPU even have access to I/O ports and > interrupts? Why doesn't every device have its own I/O processor with > access to CPU memory? Or better yet, why not a pool of communicating I/O > processors that can be allocated to the tasks at hand, leaving the CPU to > do what it does best? Is silicon now so expensive that we can't advance to > an idea that's more than 40 years old? I say blame the humans. The people driving the micro developments are mostly Unix and Windows types, and they have a history of ignoring the mainframes. They often claim that their little Linux box with a zillion horsepower would put the biggest IBM to shame. They think that mainframes died in the 1980s, and are not worth looking at today, even if the hardware and software has advanced. THEY can do better. The mainframe folks, on the other hand, discount the micros as worthless toys that should only be used for video games. They can not grasp that those little machines have advanced beyond Windows 3.0, and are only good for sorting recipes. THEY can do better. So what we have here is a lack of communication... Both schools have their strengths, and things would be awesome if they merged - but that will never happen. Only a small drip of cross pollination. I suspect that one day micros will get some I/O help - they will give it a fancy name like "communications protocol micro core" or something, and the mainframe guys will say "Oh, a channel director". -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 6 23:01:06 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 00:01:06 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D6A860.1030908@arachelian.com> References: <44D66BC2.4090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <44D6724A.3080808@arachelian.com> <200608061927.19935.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D6A860.1030908@arachelian.com> Message-ID: > It's worth a read to get a feel of the excitement the 68K caused back in > the day when it was introduced. Some of it is very funny, there's one > issue where the author compares an Intel FPU to the 68000 running > software floating point routines, and guess what, the 68000 actually ran > FASTER! :-) Sure, the 8087 was not great, but face it - the 68881 really sucked. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 6 23:15:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 21:15:54 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D6A860.1030908@arachelian.com> References: <44D66BC2.4090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <44D6724A.3080808@arachelian.com> <200608061927.19935.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D6A860.1030908@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200608062115540363.0D0EEAC4@10.0.0.252> On 8/6/2006 at 10:41 PM Ray Arachelian wrote: >It's worth a read to get a feel of the excitement the 68K caused back in >the day when it was introduced. Some of it is very funny, there's one >issue where the author compares an Intel FPU to the 68000 running >software floating point routines, and guess what, the 68000 actually ran >FASTER! :-) I never did benchmark the 68881. IIRC, the 68K was a big deal in the fab business. I think it used the then-very-new 3 micron technology. My biggest disappointment was that the CPU instructions weren't resumable after a fault--i.e. with those 24 bits of address, there was no possibility of virtual memory implementation. I did hear of a scheme for using two 68Ks, one running a half-clock ahead of the other to get around this, but that was prohibitively expensive. 16 MB sounded like a huge amount of memory back then. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 6 23:17:00 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 00:17:00 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D4D2A6.1010007@gmail.com> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <44D4D2A6.1010007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44D6BEBC.4040407@gmail.com> Segin wrote: > Ray Arachelian wrote: >> A few of the ancient x86 line have some historical value. The 1st IBM >> PC, the Jr, the 1st laptops, the 1st portable PC, and so on are >> collectibles because they are the 1st of something. But a generic white >> box 386, meh. >> >> > That's true, but you gotta play with the cards dealt to you. That is, I > don't have a SPARC or a old Sun 3 or a VAX, or even something exotic > such as a IBM z/390, or something big that would fall right through my > floor like a PDP-11 (which I'd love to have, just to run 2.10BSD) You're concerned about the size of a PDP-11 but not of an S/390? Pretty much any S/390 will be bigger than pretty much any PDP-11. Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 6 23:24:43 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 00:24:43 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608062115540363.0D0EEAC4@10.0.0.252> References: <44D66BC2.4090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <44D6724A.3080808@arachelian.com> <200608061927.19935.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D6A860.1030908@arachelian.com> <200608062115540363.0D0EEAC4@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > I never did benchmark the 68881. IIRC, the 68K was a big deal in the fab > business. I think it used the then-very-new 3 micron technology. My > biggest disappointment was that the CPU instructions weren't resumable > after a fault--i.e. with those 24 bits of address, there was no possibility > of virtual memory implementation. Well, Motorola felt your pain... I liked the 68000, but for some reason I initial thought it was just a bit too complex, and thus sluggish. Maybe when the 68020 came out I was more impressed. -- Will, who has actually touched a 68012 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 6 23:26:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 21:26:26 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: References: <44D604F8.5030005@neurotica.com> <200608060840230926.0A5B37B7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608062126260272.0D188F29@10.0.0.252> On 8/6/2006 at 11:52 PM William Donzelli wrote: >I say blame the humans. Back when Atari was on Moffett Park Drive across the street from CDC, they used to get a lot of walk-in applicants from CDC. Eventually, Atari stated in their employment ads "No mainframe programmers, please". Not a good move in my estimation. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 6 23:30:37 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 00:30:37 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D6BEBC.4040407@gmail.com> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <44D4D2A6.1010007@gmail.com> <44D6BEBC.4040407@gmail.com> Message-ID: > You're concerned about the size of a PDP-11 but not of an S/390? Pretty > much any S/390 will be bigger than pretty much any PDP-11. Is there not a small S/390, sort of a deskside unit? I thik I have seen one. I think you could make a deskside 9370, if you cut enough stuff out. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 6 23:37:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 21:37:52 -0700 Subject: OT: Fluidic computer Message-ID: <200608062137520098.0D23062B@10.0.0.252> Here's the web page of a guy who's built himself a 4-bit water adder: http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~paulo/courses/howmake/mlfabfinalproject.htm From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 6 23:39:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 21:39:29 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D6BEBC.4040407@gmail.com> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <44D4D2A6.1010007@gmail.com> <44D6BEBC.4040407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608062139290168.0D248158@10.0.0.252> On 8/7/2006 at 12:17 AM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >You're concerned about the size of a PDP-11 but not of an S/390? Pretty >much any S/390 will be bigger than pretty much any PDP-11. Very OT:, but whatever happened to the boxes that Two-pi Systems put together? I haven't heard of them in perhaps 25 years. Cheers, Chuck From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Aug 6 15:05:14 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 13:05:14 -0700 Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D64B7A.6020703@msu.edu> Cool, thanks for the script and suggestions. I assume that copying the files back to tape would involve doing something similar, only with if & of swapped in dd? Thanks again, Josh Scott Quinn wrote: > (1) the tape drive: I fixed my IRIS drive by cleaning off the goo and sliding on a section of some sort of (probably very nice & expensive) > tubing I got at Boeing Surplus. Not quite vinyl (matte finish and slightly bluish, more flexable then vinyl), but similar. Get a set of calipers in > there and get the O.D. and I.D. needed and let me know. I still have many yards of the stuff. > > (2) Sun tapes are in TAR format, excepting the first couple, Let me grab my "System Administrator's Guide to Sun Workstations". > > O.K.- for SunOS 4.0 on QIC: > > tape: file: name: format: > 1 0 boot image > 1 1 XDRTOC TOC > 1 2 copy image > 1 3 mini-root image > 1 4 munix image > 1 5 munixfs image > the rest are TARs, except tape1, file 15 (copyright) and tape2, 0 (boot) 2,1 (XDRTOC) and 2,12 (copyright) > > Have the whole list if anyone needs it, don't want to choke up cctalk, though > > I archive twice: once as "dd" files, once as "extracted" files. On TAR tapes, the dd files double as the extracted files, so there is no issue (same with CPIO). Things > like IRIS-4D disttapes (distcp) and Apollo Domain tapes (rbak) need to be extracted in order to be readable without rewriting a tape, though. Pay attention when > copying older tapes. Sometimes the belt slips and you get some slack that starts to make a snapping or popping noise as it gets pulled taut and goes loose. > If you don't catch this, you can tie your tape in knots. > A script I use to automate the dd copy follows > > #! /bin/sh > filenum=1 #where the numbers in the filenames start > bs=1024 #block size, bigger = faster, smaller=better error handling > > while [1] > do > dd if=/dev/nrst0 of=file${filenum} bs=${bs} > if [$? != 0] > then > break > fi > filenum='expr $filenum + 1' > done > > --------- > slightly crude, but works. Replace the /dev/nrst0 with your tape no-rewind device (this is set up for SunOS4 as it stands). > Make a directory with the name of the tape, cd to it, run the script, and the tapefiles will be extracted in file1, file2 ... files. > > > > > > > From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 6 23:53:37 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 00:53:37 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <44D4D2A6.1010007@gmail.com> <44D6BEBC.4040407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44D6C751.8040003@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> You're concerned about the size of a PDP-11 but not of an S/390? Pretty >> much any S/390 will be bigger than pretty much any PDP-11. > > Is there not a small S/390, sort of a deskside unit? I thik I have seen > one. The deskside "S/390" is the IS/390, which is a PC running OS/2 containing a PCI card with an S/390 processor on it, and a bunch of i960-based ARTIC960 CHANNEL-emulation cards. It doesn't really compare with a full-size S/390. > I think you could make a deskside 9370, if you cut enough stuff out. You really have to cut out a lot of it. There was also that one 43x1 which looked like a desk. I forget which one exactly. It even came with a table-top on it. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 6 23:54:20 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 00:54:20 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608062139290168.0D248158@10.0.0.252> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <44D4D2A6.1010007@gmail.com> <44D6BEBC.4040407@gmail.com> <200608062139290168.0D248158@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D6C77C.70007@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/7/2006 at 12:17 AM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> You're concerned about the size of a PDP-11 but not of an S/390? Pretty >> much any S/390 will be bigger than pretty much any PDP-11. > > Very OT:, but whatever happened to the boxes that Two-pi Systems put > together? I haven't heard of them in perhaps 25 years. I never heard of them. What were they all about? Peace... Sridhar From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Mon Aug 7 00:04:07 2006 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Michael Green) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 22:04:07 -0700 Subject: PERQ POSSIBLY AVAILABLE In-Reply-To: <200608070503.k7753e0P019901@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <039601c6b9de$e98dcb20$6401a8c0@odin> I found a guy local that has a PERQ system for sale. Not much interest in it for me but thought one of you guys might be into it. He wants $200. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 7 00:05:36 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 01:05:36 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D6C751.8040003@gmail.com> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <44D4D2A6.1010007@gmail.com> <44D6BEBC.4040407@gmail.com> <44D6C751.8040003@gmail.com> Message-ID: > The deskside "S/390" is the IS/390, which is a PC running OS/2 > containing a PCI card with an S/390 processor on it, and a bunch of > i960-based ARTIC960 CHANNEL-emulation cards. It doesn't really compare > with a full-size S/390. I seem to remember something that was more than just a tower - it might have weighed a few hundred pounds. Not a PC?? -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 7 00:16:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 22:16:50 -0700 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <44D6C77C.70007@gmail.com> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <44D4D2A6.1010007@gmail.com> <44D6BEBC.4040407@gmail.com> <200608062139290168.0D248158@10.0.0.252> <44D6C77C.70007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608062216500942.0D46B92B@10.0.0.252> On 8/7/2006 at 12:54 AM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >I never heard of them. What were they all about? Two-pi was a Santa Clara Valley firm (IIRC, Cupertino) that manufactured S/370 clones. Very nice workstation-sized units. I think they were absorbed by Four Phase. Cheers, Chuck From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 7 00:19:02 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 22:19:02 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608062115540363.0D0EEAC4@10.0.0.252> References: <44D66BC2.4090408@jetnet.ab.ca> <44D6724A.3080808@arachelian.com> <200608061927.19935.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D6A860.1030908@arachelian.com> <200608062115540363.0D0EEAC4@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D6CD46.8030308@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I never did benchmark the 68881. IIRC, the 68K was a big deal in the fab > business. I think it used the then-very-new 3 micron technology. My > biggest disappointment was that the CPU instructions weren't resumable > after a fault--i.e. with those 24 bits of address, there was no possibility > of virtual memory implementation. I did hear of a scheme for using two Fixed in the '010 > 68Ks, one running a half-clock ahead of the other to get around this, but > that was prohibitively expensive. 16 MB sounded like a huge amount of > memory back then. From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 7 00:24:31 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 01:24:31 -0400 Subject: Evan's current wishlist Message-ID: <001001c6b9e1$c33c58d0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> If anybody happens to have the following for sale, then please contact me off-list. - Grundy Newbrain (model AD or M) - Teleram T-3000 - Sord IS-11 Consultant - Texas Instruments Compact Computer 40 Thanks, - Evan From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 7 00:33:31 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 01:33:31 -0400 Subject: Evan's current wishlist In-Reply-To: <001001c6b9e1$c33c58d0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <001d01c6b9e3$04a9cef0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Correction -- just found a decent CC-40 on eBay. There's a non-working Grundy AD but I'd strongly prefer a working model is anybody has one! -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan at snarc.net] Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 1:25 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Evan's current wishlist If anybody happens to have the following for sale, then please contact me off-list. - Grundy Newbrain (model AD or M) - Teleram T-3000 - Sord IS-11 Consultant - Texas Instruments Compact Computer 40 Thanks, - Evan From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Aug 7 00:40:45 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 22:40:45 -0700 Subject: Century drive manual, and TVI 925 terminal (separate notes) Message-ID: <44D6D25D.2000601@msm.umr.edu> I have a couple of bits that may be of interest for someone. I have a manual for a Century 8" disk drive, removable that I will be putting in the scan pile. If anyone needs it sooner than later, reply, and I'll get it scanned somehow. I had the drive and may have some of the media around in my piles as well. This is a 2075 or 2120 drive Unfortunately I only have the user manual, but it has quite a bit more info than junky manuals do today, if someone needs the info. There was an SMD adapter, which I believe we had with our units. Also a TVI 925 w/o keyboard on epay, claims it lights up. 5233869793 From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 7 00:49:33 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 22:49:33 -0700 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <012001c6b916$e9437890$0b01a8c0@game> References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <44D47B88.8040909@neurotica.com> <44D53EB0.2090907@neurotica.com> <44D53F6C.2040807@dakotacom.net> <012001c6b916$e9437890$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <44D6D46D.1050109@dakotacom.net> Teo Zenios wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don" >> Speaking of Macs... >> >> I've inherited a beige G3 (?) and an 840AV (?). >> Any suggestions as to what I should install on them? > > On the 840AV I guess it depends on what is installed in the unit hardware > wise and what you like to do. I have Mac OS 8.1 on my 840AV and use it for > video capture, but it will do many other 68K era tasks just fine (since it > is the fastest stock 68K Mac made). Thanks! I'll see what it currently has installed once I get the other machines out of the way. Any suggestions for the G3? From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Aug 7 00:52:52 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 01:52:52 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: References: <44D6C751.8040003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608070152.52086.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 07 August 2006 01:05, William Donzelli wrote: > > The deskside "S/390" is the IS/390, which is a PC running OS/2 > > containing a PCI card with an S/390 processor on it, and a bunch of > > i960-based ARTIC960 CHANNEL-emulation cards. It doesn't really compare > > with a full-size S/390. > > I seem to remember something that was more than just a tower - it > might have weighed a few hundred pounds. Not a PC?? Are you thinking of a Multiprise 3000? A bit more than a desktop, and a bit more than a deskside RS/6000 (7013) chassis, but small(er) when compared to a single-rack S/390 or Mulitprise 2003 box. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 7 01:14:49 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 02:14:49 -0400 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <44D47B88.8040909@neurotica.com> <44D53EB0.2090907@neurotica.com> <44D53F6C.2040807@dakotacom.net> <012001c6b916$e9437890$0b01a8c0@game> <44D6D46D.1050109@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <00d001c6b9e8$ca43ccb0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 1:49 AM Subject: Re: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) > Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Don" > >> Speaking of Macs... > >> > >> I've inherited a beige G3 (?) and an 840AV (?). > >> Any suggestions as to what I should install on them? > > > > On the 840AV I guess it depends on what is installed in the unit hardware > > wise and what you like to do. I have Mac OS 8.1 on my 840AV and use it for > > video capture, but it will do many other 68K era tasks just fine (since it > > is the fastest stock 68K Mac made). > > Thanks! I'll see what it currently has installed once > I get the other machines out of the way. > > Any suggestions for the G3? I believe a beige G3 needs mac OS 8.1 or greater, check the information on www.lownedmac.com for specs. if you like the 840av join the www.68kmla.net forum, there are plenty of people there that use 68K and PPC apps (I am Unknown__K on the forum). My interests are in 68K Macs mostly, I have a couple PCI PPC Macs for utility work. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 7 01:46:17 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 02:46:17 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <44D4D2A6.1010007@gmail.com> <44D6BEBC.4040407@gmail.com> <44D6C751.8040003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44D6E1B9.1000907@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> The deskside "S/390" is the IS/390, which is a PC running OS/2 >> containing a PCI card with an S/390 processor on it, and a bunch of >> i960-based ARTIC960 CHANNEL-emulation cards. It doesn't really compare >> with a full-size S/390. > > I seem to remember something that was more than just a tower - it > might have weighed a few hundred pounds. Not a PC?? The IS/390 is quite a bit bigger than a tower. The next size up is the MP/3000, which is about half the size of a full-size S/390, but it still has a PC at its core somewhere. Peace... Sridhar From technobug at comcast.net Mon Aug 7 03:31:38 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 01:31:38 -0700 Subject: Truth (was: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <200608070516.k775GgdB020346@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608070516.k775GgdB020346@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Aug 2006 16:17:48 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin wrote: > I'm trying to figure out how to make pneumatic (NOT hydraulic) gates. > Once I can build a half adder and full adder with compressed smoke > (no mirrors), THEN I'll be ready to start really learning how > digital electronics works. > All you want to know: . Let us know how it works out :=)) CRC From technobug at comcast.net Mon Aug 7 04:12:52 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 02:12:52 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608070516.k775GgdB020346@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608070516.k775GgdB020346@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 06 Aug 2006 22:41:36 -0400 and Sun, 06 Aug 2006 22:47:23 -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Absolutely. The 68000 is an amazing little chip when you compare > it to > the 6800 and 6502's that it evolved itself from. You can sort of > get a > feel from this from this journal: > > It's worth a read to get a feel of the excitement the 68K caused > back in > the day when it was introduced. Some of it is very funny, there's one > issue where the author compares an Intel FPU to the 68000 running > software floating point routines, and guess what, the 68000 > actually ran > FASTER! :-) > > The excitement was for a good part due to the excellent marketing on the part of Motorola. > Tony Duell wrote: >> That very much depends on the CPU. If the CPU is many chips (not a >> single >> package) with microcode in PROMs, there's nothing to stop you >> desoldering >> said PROMs and reading them out. I've done that, then written a >> disassembler for the microode instructions and worked out what was >> going on. >> > True, but you don't find CPU's made of discrete logic these days, > so it > makes it very difficult to get at the microcode. In the early '80s we started development of a process controller and evaluated the 68K as well as the National 32K processor which had been just released. The NS 32K processor was released with a FP unit which we required while Moto didn't get around to getting one to market for another year - the 68K on software just didn't hack it. We went with the NS 32K and were quite pleased with the beast. It was a true 32 bit processor witch came in three flavors: 8 bit, 16 bit, and 32 bit external busses - you could move the code from one to the other with almost no change. The instruction set was extremely orthogonal and close to those of the VAX sans the three operand instructions. The only flaw we noted was that the entire machine state was not saved on interrupt/trap which made a couple of features useless. The floating point processor was not a co-processor ala the 68K, but a external instruction execution module. When the FPU was attached, the FP instructions became active and you worked between internal register pairs. IIRC they also made communication processor that implemented part of the unimplemented instruction set. I played with my own external processor to implement macro instructions that were used to optimize execution time. When Apple was evaluating processors for the Mac, an internal source told me that NS marketing only made a half*** effort to sell the part. Unfortunately NS did their normal thing when it came to processors and shot themselves in the foot (see PACE - both Studebaker and NS screwed those up) by trying to keep it all to themselves. Consequently, there was little third party support for the chip. I believe it to be a better implementation than the 68K. CRC From shirsch at adelphia.net Mon Aug 7 07:00:04 2006 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 08:00:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... In-Reply-To: <200608061329.15940.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44D5572F.1010302@msu.edu> <200608061329.15940.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Aug 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > It's been a really long time since I looked, but there were companies that > used to sell all sorts of belts and rubber wheels and such for a lot of > equipment that used such. I know that VCRs used to have several of both, > for example. I was pleasantly surprised a while back when, finding that our > answering machine had quite working, I went to our local electronics > wholesaler and was able to walk in and buy a couple of belts for it to > replace the ones that were in there, which I'd last changed somewhere back > around 1986 or so... You may be thinking of the late, lamented Projector-Recorder Belt Co. They stocked (or could custom fabricate) belts and rollers for just about anything. Unfortunately PRB seem to have disappeared sometime during the 90s. There's still something on the web that pertains to their trade-name, but they do not seem reachable by phone or e-mail. > You might try MCM electronics, as one possibility, though there are no doubt > other suppliers as well that do mail-order. > > Those suppliers do have cross-reference materials available, though it's > primarily oriented toward consumer equipment. True, but they cannot do 1-off custom. I have a handful of much-beloved reel-to-reel audio tape decks and turntables in need of replacement rubber. Is there anyone in the world tooled up for custom belts and rollers anymore? Steve From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Aug 7 08:38:51 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 07:38:51 -0600 Subject: PERQ POSSIBLY AVAILABLE In-Reply-To: <039601c6b9de$e98dcb20$6401a8c0@odin> References: <039601c6b9de$e98dcb20$6401a8c0@odin> Message-ID: <44D7426B.1020106@e-bbes.com> Michael Green wrote: > I found a guy local that has a PERQ system for sale. Not much interest in > it for me but thought one of you guys might be into it. He wants $200. Hallo Michael, which model ? Where is he located ? Cheers. emanuel P.S. I'm in Colorado From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Aug 7 09:56:09 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 10:56:09 -0400 Subject: IDE doesn't suck! (was: Macs and PCs vs workstations In-Reply-To: References: <30a25e66f80541c79f3f77b309ee64bf@valleyimplants.com> <30a25e66f80541c79f3f77b309ee64bf@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060807105402.03c02150@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words: >At 4:22 PM -0500 8/5/06, Scott Quinn wrote: > >>On the Macs: PIDE is horrible for doing more than one thing at once. Period. > >Nothing new there, is there any platform where it isn't? The IDE interface for my CoCo *Rocks!!!* =-= Well, you did ask... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From javickers at solutionengineers.com Mon Aug 7 09:57:34 2006 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 15:57:34 +0100 Subject: cctalk: Spam? In-Reply-To: <44D7426B.1020106@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <04c601c6ba31$e32fead0$0401a8c0@solution.engineers> Is anyone else getting "spam" messages through this list? Stuff about stocks & viagra mostly? I seem to be getting 2-3/day, but I'm not sure if it's a general thing or not... Replies off-list would be preferred. Cheers, Ade. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.7/410 - Release Date: 05/08/2006 From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Aug 7 10:24:54 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:24:54 +0200 Subject: Truth (was: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <20060806160906.N26433@shell.lmi.net> References: Message-ID: <44D77766.22032.160E8660@localhost> Hi Fred, I hope you'll keep up with this summer heat :) Am 6 Aug 2006 16:17 meinte Fred Cisin: > > > Tony is just pulling your leg. Some sort of newbie hazing? > > > The reality is that the CPU runs on compressed magic smoke. > > > Proof of that is that during some kinds of electrical problems, > > > the magic smoke can leak out, and it never works quite right > > > after the magic smoke leaks out. > On Sun, 6 Aug 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > > But doesn't that apply to all electronic components, not just CPUs? > > Certainly the resistor I was using earlier today stopped working after > > the magic smoke came out (so I assume said smoke is what made it work). > I'm trying to figure out how to make pneumatic (NOT hydraulic) gates. > Once I can build a half adder and full adder with compressed smoke > (no mirrors), THEN I'll be ready to start really learning how > digital electronics works. Well, Basicly, high enough pressure given, it should faily equaly behave like a hydraulic one - except that you'll still keep notable delays (more as lower the pressure). Since almost all hydraulic elemants are just mechanicals with tubes and fluid instead of rods, it shoudn't be that hard. Now, a different aproach would be if one goes ahead and use a constant flow of air, like a flow of electric current, to do things. A bit like Bipolar vs. MOS :) Hans -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Aug 7 10:58:48 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 10:58:48 -0500 Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... Message-ID: >I'm afriad that you don't understand the issues. To produce an accurate >archive of a tape, one must preserve things such as block sizes, labels, >and filemarks. There are packages to do this, but tar isn't one of them. >While tapes are a one-dimensional medium, there's more variation in >physical structure than encountered on the typical disk. > >Cheers, >Chuck I'm going to be horrably pragmatic here and assert that, while it is nice to have a image of the tape (using either dd or Tapeutils: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tapeutils), it is more important to have the software on the tape in a useable backup. With the Sun tapes, that means that you can mostly do tar (with the exclusion of the sandalone copy, munix, and miniroot which would need to be dd'd off) and it is better than having the tapes sit around in the garage and fall apart. Tar/cpio created tapes are nice in that the dd'd files can be read with tar -f (or cpio), making them useable as-is. inst-format tapes and wbak/rbak tapes don't have this luxury, so I like to do the extraction to files and "rebinding" into a tardist or disk-file wbak archive so they can be used even if you don't have a tape drive. IOW, both have their uses, but it is infinitely better to have one than to have none. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Aug 7 10:58:52 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 10:58:52 -0500 Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... Message-ID: <6267edd336204dfeb57ba970e0be5b4c@valleyimplants.com> >I'm afriad that you don't understand the issues. To produce an accurate >archive of a tape, one must preserve things such as block sizes, labels, >and filemarks. There are packages to do this, but tar isn't one of them. >While tapes are a one-dimensional medium, there's more variation in >physical structure than encountered on the typical disk. > >Cheers, >Chuck I'm going to be horrably pragmatic here and assert that, while it is nice to have a image of the tape (using either dd or Tapeutils: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tapeutils), it is more important to have the software on the tape in a useable backup. With the Sun tapes, that means that you can mostly do tar (with the exclusion of the sandalone copy, munix, and miniroot which would need to be dd'd off) and it is better than having the tapes sit around in the garage and fall apart. Tar/cpio created tapes are nice in that the dd'd files can be read with tar -f (or cpio), making them useable as-is. inst-format tapes and wbak/rbak tapes don't have this luxury, so I like to do the extraction to files and "rebinding" into a tardist or disk-file wbak archive so they can be used even if you don't have a tape drive. IOW, both have their uses, but it is infinitely better to have one than to have none. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 7 11:16:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 09:16:34 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: References: <200608070516.k775GgdB020346@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200608070916340094.0FA2BA7A@10.0.0.252> On 8/7/2006 at 2:12 AM CRC wrote: >In the early '80s we started development of a process controller and >evaluated the 68K as well as the National 32K processor which had >been just released. The NS 32K processor was released with a FP unit >which we required while Moto didn't get around to getting one to >market for another year - the 68K on software just didn't hack it. We >went with the NS 32K and were quite pleased with the beast. I'll concur with your assessment of the NS 32K processors and the huge marketing mess they made of it. We'd evaluated the 8086, 68K and Z8000 and were very excited to see a processor with a well-thought out architecture like the NS 32K. We were pitched by NS's marketing, only to discover that the chips would be sampled "Real Soon Now". After awhile, our decision window passed and we selected the 80186 (of which Intel was delighted to supply us samples of well in advance of the official release, bugs and all). NS's sales force remained generally opaque and ignorant. It's no wonder that for many years the only thing that kept National going was second-sourcing of commodity chips. I used to have a CPU S100 board that I built for the National PACE. That CPU was a catastrophe. So slow and with very little NS support. Given its very early introduction, it could have been a comer had NS taken any interest in it. But at the time, NS was pushing the SC/MP and signing second-sourcing deals. Anyone remember AMC? A coop venture of AMD and Siemens (and maybe another firm) to push the Z8000 with development tools? I still have a binder full of documentation for their assembler. IIRC, it didn't last long. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 7 11:29:49 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 09:29:49 -0700 Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608070929490608.0FAEDDF4@10.0.0.252> On 8/7/2006 at 10:58 AM Scott Quinn wrote: >I'm going to be horrably pragmatic here and assert that, while it is nice >to have a image of the tape (using either dd or Tapeutils: >http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tapeutils),... It all depends on your point of view. If you're interested in historic preservation, then keeping every little bit of information about the item is important. If you don't care about preservation, then use whatever works. My point was that the raw file data does not represent the entirety of a tape. To put it another way, are the files from a Victor 9000 floppy the same as the floppy itself? Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Aug 7 11:18:11 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:18:11 -0500 Subject: VAXen RULE! (WAS Microkernels) Message-ID: Segin, now you're trolling. Do you suspect that we can't list the shortcomings of VAX just as easily as the shortcomings of x86? They pulled alot over from the PDP-11 that should have been reimplemented for a 32-bit arch... On the positive side, what is the most perfect computer architecture + implementation people have come across here? Tell us why, especially if it's something like PERQ or Acorn RISC/pc that is not common outside of a limited geographic area. From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 7 11:37:01 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 12:37:01 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D6A860.1030908@arachelian.com> References: <200608061927.19935.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D6A860.1030908@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200608071237.01953.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 06 August 2006 10:41 pm, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Sunday 06 August 2006 06:50 pm, Ray Arachelian wrote: > >> A far cleaner approach would be to use 32 bit registers to begin with. > >> Then, you're not limited to 16 bit segments, nor do you have to worry > >> about segments. See the 68000. > > > > Which is exactly why I have one or two of those chips around with the > > thoughts of maybe someday playing with them, a thought that I've *never* > > had with regard to the x86 parts, which I'll just _use_ as a part of an > > already-made system > > Absolutely. The 68000 is an amazing little chip when you compare it to > the 6800 and 6502's that it evolved itself from. You can sort of get a > feel from this from this journal: > http://linux.monroeccc.edu/~paulrsm/dg/dg.htm DTACK Grounded was a > Journal that was pushing a plug in board to Commodore Pet's and Apple > II's and possibly other 8 bit systems to enable a 68000 to run inside of > them. The differences between the 68K and the host they live inside of > are huge. I've heard of that one somewhere. > It's worth a read to get a feel of the excitement the 68K caused back in > the day when it was introduced. Some of it is very funny, there's one > issue where the author compares an Intel FPU to the 68000 running > software floating point routines, and guess what, the 68000 actually ran > FASTER! :-) Heh. No surprise there... I guess that elegance of hardware design does count for something. Sometimes I wonder how things might have been different if that chip family had been picked instead of the intel crap for the original "PC" and had gone on from there. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 7 11:40:34 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 12:40:34 -0400 Subject: VAXen RULE! (WAS Microkernels) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D76D02.3020607@gmail.com> Scott Quinn wrote: > On the positive side, what is the most perfect computer architecture + implementation people have come across here? > Tell us why, especially if it's something like PERQ or Acorn RISC/pc that is not common outside of a limited geographic area. I really dig z/Arch. Extreme CISCy goodness. MMMmmmMMMmmmMMM. Extreme pleasure in writing assembler. Peace... Sridhar From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 7 11:50:28 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 09:50:28 -0700 Subject: Advanced Micro Computers (was How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...)) Message-ID: Anyone remember AMC? A coop venture of AMD and Siemens (and maybe another firm) to push the Z8000 with development tools? I still have a binder full of documentation for their assembler. -- Yup. Have a fair amt of material on bitsavers from Philip Freidin from them, along with some software. Friends back home developed a HVAC control system using the AMC tools, and when I moved to the Bay Area, I met one of the last people who was working on software at AMC. From kelly at catcorner.org Mon Aug 7 11:53:55 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 12:53:55 -0400 Subject: Sparcstation LX troubleshooting Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374ED@MEOW.catcorner.org> I have 2 that I picked up the other day. They "appear" to power up (e.g. lights, drive seeking, etc). I tried 2 different monitors, but I don't get any video. Any troublshooting tips, or should I connect to the serial A port and see if there is any outut there? Any other things that could cause no apparent video on these units? thanks, Kelly From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Aug 7 11:54:54 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 12:54:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... In-Reply-To: <44D5572F.1010302@msu.edu> References: <44D5572F.1010302@msu.edu> Message-ID: <200608071658.MAA02323@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > 2. Archiving the tapes in a useful format. > Regarding #2, I don't have an incredible amount of experience dealing > with tape, so I'm looking for suggestions for how best to archive > these tapes without losing any important information. I'd suggest copytape, or something basically equivalent. (copytape is a data format for recording tape contents including block boundaries and tape marks, and a program for converting either way between that format and real tapes. The version I use can be found in ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/local/src/copyutape/ for them as wants.) Now, as I understand it, most (all?) QIC drives do not fit the canonical Unix tape model; they are streams of 512-byte blocks, not streams of variable-length records. However, since a copytape-format dump of the tapes would allow you to recreate the tapes, given media and drive, it can be considered a lossless storage format. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Aug 7 11:58:31 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 12:58:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <44D5FFE9.1050103@gmail.com> References: <200608042334270615.03410D07@10.0.0.252> <44D43E2F.8060107@DakotaCom.Net> <20060806000627.GA21469@linus.groomlake.area51> <44D54BBF.4060803@arachelian.com> <44D57094.8030202@dakotacom.net> <44D5FC8D.1060204@arachelian.com> <44D5FFE9.1050103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608071702.NAA02364@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > ssh doesn't seem to follow the standard rules of timeouts. I have > left a ssh session idle once for over 3 days, and it still worked. What "standard rules of timeouts" does that not follow? TCP connections in general don't get torn down when idle without traffic. (Most TCP stacks have an option which applications can turn on, requesting that idle connections get probed every few hours, but as far as I know they all have it off by default - as is required by RFC-1122 4.2.3.6.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 7 12:03:06 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 10:03:06 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608071237.01953.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608061927.19935.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D6A860.1030908@arachelian.com> <200608071237.01953.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608071003060309.0FCD5591@10.0.0.252> On 8/7/2006 at 12:37 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Sometimes I wonder how things might have been different if that chip >family had been picked instead of the intel crap for the original "PC" and had >gone on from there. I recall that before the IBM PC was released, there was a solid camp of speculators thinking that the PC was going to be 68K-based. After all, IBM had just released its lab computer--and it was 68K based. I remember the sense of letdown when the machine debuted. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 7 12:16:00 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 10:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparcstation LX troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374ED@MEOW.catcorner.org> from "Kelly Leavitt" at Aug 07, 2006 12:53:55 PM Message-ID: <200608071716.k77HG08L015267@onyx.spiritone.com> > I have 2 that I picked up the other day. They "appear" to power up (e.g. > lights, drive seeking, etc). I tried 2 different monitors, but I don't get > any video. Any troublshooting tips, or should I connect to the serial A > port and see if there is any outut there? > > Any other things that could cause no apparent video on these units? > > thanks, > Kelly > Connect a terminal to the Serial port. Are you sure the monitors and cabling are compatible? I'd recommend looking into running either OpenBSD or maybe NetBSD on them. I know OpenBSD has a small enough memory footprint to fit on one nicely (won't guarentee it's supported hardware though as I don't have any LX's). Even Solaris 2.6 will be painful on one. Zane From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 7 12:18:42 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 10:18:42 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: References: <200608070516.k775GgdB020346@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <44D775F2.50804@dakotacom.net> CRC wrote: > > Ray Arachelian wrote: > > The excitement was for a good part due to the excellent marketing on the > part of Motorola. And, motogorilla lined up LOTS of second-sources for the part (IIRC, *8*?) -- though they didn't all source the other devices (e.g. '010). Back then, having a second source was good insurance -- nowadays, I don't think ANYTHING is second sourced at a drop-in replacement level... :-( >> Tony Duell wrote: >>> That very much depends on the CPU. If the CPU is many chips (not a >>> single >>> package) with microcode in PROMs, there's nothing to stop you >>> desoldering >>> said PROMs and reading them out. I've done that, then written a >>> disassembler for the microode instructions and worked out what was >>> going on. >>> >> True, but you don't find CPU's made of discrete logic these days, so it >> makes it very difficult to get at the microcode. > > In the early '80s we started development of a process controller and > evaluated the 68K as well as the National 32K processor which had been > just released. The NS 32K processor was released with a FP unit which we > required while Moto didn't get around to getting one to market for > another year - the 68K on software just didn't hack it. We went with the > NS 32K and were quite pleased with the beast. On paper, a *delightful* processor (chip set). Unfortunately, NS went on to develop the rest of the family (332, 532, etc.) without real concern for fixing some of the blemishes in the original parts (N.B. the original part was the 16032 -- later renamed 32016 :> I think I still have a databook with *that* on it's title page) > It was a true 32 bit processor witch came in three flavors: 8 bit, 16 > bit, and 32 bit external busses - you could move the code from one to > the other with almost no change. The instruction set was extremely > orthogonal and close to those of the VAX sans the three operand > instructions. The only flaw we noted was that the entire machine state > was not saved on interrupt/trap which made a couple of features useless. And, the MMU was an amusing "sit-alongside" implementation... add it and a clock cycle to accesses and you get a two-level paged MMU. With a small PLA, you could even design the glue logic to allow the device to be "transparently" added to the circuit without having to cut foils, etc. > The floating point processor was not a co-processor ala the 68K, but a > external instruction execution module. When the FPU was attached, the FP > instructions became active and you worked between internal register > pairs. IIRC they also made communication processor that implemented part > of the unimplemented instruction set. I played with my own external > processor to implement macro instructions that were used to optimize > execution time. The FPU was a bit minimalist. Very different approach from Intel's x87 or AMD's 9511? (I forget the P/N). It wasn't do "kitchen sink" but, rather, just concentrated on basic support for floats (w/o things like transcendentals). Since it was so minimalist, you didn't NEED to have the FPU running "in parallel" with the CPU (a la x87 -- which could be grinding away for a LONG time on transcendental evaluation). It made writing real-time kernels easier since you didn't have to reschedule support for FPU context saves independant of the CPU's state. > When Apple was evaluating processors for the Mac, an internal source > told me that NS marketing only made a half*** effort to sell the part. > Unfortunately NS did their normal thing when it came to processors and > shot themselves in the foot (see PACE - both Studebaker and NS screwed > those up) by trying to keep it all to themselves. Consequently, there > was little third party support for the chip. I believe it to be a better > implementation than the 68K. NS was ALWAYS stupid in their marketing of processors! Their GNX tools were pretty respectable, though (one of the reasons I wanted to get my Opus PM back up and running was to have access to that tool suite). OTOH, their ICE was almost laughable -- almost the size of an EXORMACS/desktop PC! From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 7 12:27:27 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 10:27:27 -0700 Subject: Sparcstation LX troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374ED@MEOW.catcorner.org> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374ED@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <44D777FF.7040605@dakotacom.net> Kelly Leavitt wrote: > I have 2 that I picked up the other day. They "appear" to power up > (e.g. lights, drive seeking, etc). I tried 2 different monitors, > but I don't get any video. Any troublshooting tips, or should I > connect to the serial A port and see if there is any outut there? > > Any other things that could cause no apparent video on these units? Keyboard plugged in? SBUS card seated properly? STOP-N during boot (reset NVRAM -- or have I misremembered that?) From kth at srv.net Mon Aug 7 12:53:07 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 11:53:07 -0600 Subject: Truth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D77E03.5070204@srv.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>Tony is just pulling your leg. Some sort of newbie hazing? >>The reality is that the CPU runs on compressed magic smoke. >>Proof of that is that during some kinds of electrical problems, >>the magic smoke can leak out, and it never works quite right >>after the magic smoke leaks out. >> >> > >But doesn't that apply to all electronic components, not just CPUs? >Certainly the resistor I was using earlier today stopped working after >the magic smoke came out (so I assume said smoke is what made it work). > > > Be careful with that stuff! Do you realize how many magic faries to need to squeeze to get enough magic smoke to build a whole computer? And then you end up throwing it in the dumpster! Faries don't grow on trees (well, actually many do, but you get the idea) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 7 12:39:08 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 13:39:08 -0400 Subject: Sparcstation LX troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <200608071716.k77HG08L015267@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608071716.k77HG08L015267@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <44D77ABC.1020405@neurotica.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'd recommend looking into running either OpenBSD or maybe NetBSD on them. > I know OpenBSD has a small enough memory footprint to fit on one nicely > (won't guarentee it's supported hardware though as I don't have any LX's). > Even Solaris 2.6 will be painful on one. NetBSD runs very nicely on an LX. About ten years ago, I had a whole slew of them dedicated to different tasks on my home network...a nameserver, a news server, a mail server, a file server...all running NetBSD and performing their jobs quite well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 7 12:48:06 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 10:48:06 -0700 Subject: Sparcstation LX troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <44D77ABC.1020405@neurotica.com> References: <200608071716.k77HG08L015267@onyx.spiritone.com> <44D77ABC.1020405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44D77CD6.5060608@dakotacom.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I'd recommend looking into running either OpenBSD or maybe NetBSD on >> them. I know OpenBSD has a small enough memory footprint to fit on one >> nicely >> (won't guarentee it's supported hardware though as I don't have any >> LX's). Even Solaris 2.6 will be painful on one. > > NetBSD runs very nicely on an LX. About ten years ago, I had a whole > slew of them dedicated to different tasks on my home network...a > nameserver, a news server, a mail server, a file server...all running > NetBSD and performing their jobs quite well. I use an LX and a Classic, currently, running NBSD 2.0.1 for those roles, here. And, you can squeeze 96M into the LX (haven't tried that trick with the Classic -- yet) From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Aug 7 13:00:00 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 13:00:00 -0500 Subject: Sparcstation LX troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <44D77CD6.5060608@dakotacom.net> References: <200608071716.k77HG08L015267@onyx.spiritone.com> <44D77ABC.1020405@neurotica.com> <44D77CD6.5060608@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44D77FA0.7090400@mdrconsult.com> Don wrote: > I use an LX and a Classic, currently, running NBSD 2.0.1 for > those roles, here. > > And, you can squeeze 96M into the LX (haven't tried that trick > with the Classic -- yet) My old Classic ran just fine in Solaris 2.6 or 2.7 with 96MB. RedHat would randomly dump core with 96MB. My $0.02? The LX is an OK system, but if you ran local graphics, the Classic was just about the definition of suck. Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 7 13:02:04 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparcstation LX troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <44D77CD6.5060608@dakotacom.net> from "Don" at Aug 07, 2006 10:48:06 AM Message-ID: <200608071802.k77I24J1022396@onyx.spiritone.com> > I use an LX and a Classic, currently, running NBSD 2.0.1 for > those roles, here. > > And, you can squeeze 96M into the LX (haven't tried that trick > with the Classic -- yet) > Does the LX allow the use of the RAM expansion cards (S-Bus) used in a SparcStation 2? I know at least one of the "lunchbox" models does. Still if NetBSD is anything like OpenBSD I'd think 64MB would be enough RAM. Zane From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 7 13:03:26 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 14:03:26 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608062115540363.0D0EEAC4@10.0.0.252> References: <44D6A860.1030908@arachelian.com> <200608062115540363.0D0EEAC4@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608071403.26651.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 07 August 2006 12:15 am, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/6/2006 at 10:41 PM Ray Arachelian wrote: > >It's worth a read to get a feel of the excitement the 68K caused back in > >the day when it was introduced. Some of it is very funny, there's one > >issue where the author compares an Intel FPU to the 68000 running > >software floating point routines, and guess what, the 68000 actually ran > >FASTER! :-) > > I never did benchmark the 68881. IIRC, the 68K was a big deal in the fab > business. I think it used the then-very-new 3 micron technology. My > biggest disappointment was that the CPU instructions weren't resumable > after a fault--i.e. with those 24 bits of address, there was no possibility > of virtual memory implementation. I did hear of a scheme for using two > 68Ks, one running a half-clock ahead of the other to get around this, but > that was prohibitively expensive. 16 MB sounded like a huge amount of > memory back then. Wasn't the 68010 supposed to fix this? I have one of those, too... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Aug 7 13:10:02 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 14:10:02 -0400 Subject: Macs and PCs vs workstations In-Reply-To: References: <30a25e66f80541c79f3f77b309ee64bf@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200608071410.02598.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 06 August 2006 01:12, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 4:22 PM -0500 8/5/06, Scott Quinn wrote: > >On the Macs: PIDE is horrible for doing more than one thing at once. > > Period. > > Nothing new there, is there any platform where it isn't? It's a poor IDE controller choice problem. DEC and Sun both chose the CMD646 "back in the day", which is about the slowest piece of trash that they could have used. Sticking a PCI ATA/100 card into an AlphaPC 164LX board makes ide speed really quite spectacular. I haven't tried it on a Sun box (or G3 powermac, or...), but I'd expect the same results there too. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 7 13:13:50 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 14:13:50 -0400 Subject: Sparcstation LX troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <200608071802.k77I24J1022396@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608071802.k77I24J1022396@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <44D782DE.2050406@neurotica.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Does the LX allow the use of the RAM expansion cards (S-Bus) used in a > SparcStation 2? I know at least one of the "lunchbox" models does. No...The IPX (and I believe the IPC) do, but not the LX or Classic. > Still > if NetBSD is anything like OpenBSD I'd think 64MB would be enough RAM. OpenBSD was originally derived from NetBSD, and remains substantially similar...assuming SPARC, 64MB is quite spacious for all but the most demanding applications, for either OS. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 7 13:17:38 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Macs and PCs vs workstations In-Reply-To: <200608071410.02598.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Aug 07, 2006 02:10:02 PM Message-ID: <200608071817.k77IHcHq025029@onyx.spiritone.com> > On Sunday 06 August 2006 01:12, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > At 4:22 PM -0500 8/5/06, Scott Quinn wrote: > > >On the Macs: PIDE is horrible for doing more than one thing at once. > > > Period. > > > > Nothing new there, is there any platform where it isn't? > > It's a poor IDE controller choice problem. DEC and Sun both chose the > CMD646 "back in the day", which is about the slowest piece of trash > that they could have used. Sticking a PCI ATA/100 card into an AlphaPC > 164LX board makes ide speed really quite spectacular. I haven't tried > it on a Sun box (or G3 powermac, or...), but I'd expect the same > results there too. > > Pat I finally used IDE on an Alpha for the first time this last week on one of my new XP1000's. It wasn't stellar, but as I was booting from CD-ROM, I didn't expect much. I ran a Sun Ultra 10/300 for a while. Just replacing the *PATHETIC* IDE drive (it wasn't even 5400RPM) with a 7200RPM drive was a *serious* speed increase. Also aren't the IDE buses on both the Alpha's and Sun's ATA/33? Zane From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 7 13:24:53 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 11:24:53 -0700 Subject: Sparcstation LX troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <200608071802.k77I24J1022396@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608071802.k77I24J1022396@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <44D78575.3060608@dakotacom.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I use an LX and a Classic, currently, running NBSD 2.0.1 for >> those roles, here. >> >> And, you can squeeze 96M into the LX (haven't tried that trick >> with the Classic -- yet) > > Does the LX allow the use of the RAM expansion cards (S-Bus) used in a I don't think so. At least, I've not noticed the "extra" 10 (8?) pin connector that the flex-circuit would connect to on the MB. I'd have to check, though (I've got a spare SBUS memory card out in the garage *if* I find said connector on the LX) > SparcStation 2? I know at least one of the "lunchbox" models does. Still > if NetBSD is anything like OpenBSD I'd think 64MB would be enough RAM. It's *fine* in the Classic. But, since EXTRA memory is as ridiculous a concept as extra MONEY, I figured adding it to the LX was A Good Thing. The LX and Classic here are lightly loaded: -- TFTP to serve up boot images for my X terminals -- NFS to support the configuration files for those terminals -- DNS -- LPD -- xfs for the X terminals and other X servers -- NTP -- routing -- NAS Both run headless since I treat them as appliances. The heaviest weight process is Postgres but since I don't hammer on any of the databases that much, it's not a big load. I keep gcc/gdb/et al. and emacs running so I can develop code fragments without having to power up a bigger machine since I can do static testing on the LX/Classic just as easily as on a bigger box. ~4-5G drive in each with /usr/{src,xsrc,pkgsrc} available on another drive in a 411 -- which, unfortunately, means I can't mount the lunchboxes vertically in their little stands. :-( (maybe some day I'll put bigger drives *inside* but all of my larger drives are SCA or Wide) From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 7 13:24:18 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 14:24:18 -0400 Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... In-Reply-To: References: <44D5572F.1010302@msu.edu> <200608061329.15940.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608071424.18344.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 07 August 2006 08:00 am, Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > On Sun, 6 Aug 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > It's been a really long time since I looked, but there were companies > > that used to sell all sorts of belts and rubber wheels and such for a lot > > of equipment that used such. I know that VCRs used to have several of > > both, for example. I was pleasantly surprised a while back when, > > finding that our answering machine had quite working, I went to our > > local electronics wholesaler and was able to walk in and buy a couple of > > belts for it to replace the ones that were in there, which I'd last > > changed somewhere back around 1986 or so... > > You may be thinking of the late, lamented Projector-Recorder Belt Co. I know I've heard that name before, for sure. There were others as well. > They stocked (or could custom fabricate) belts and rollers for just about > anything. Unfortunately PRB seem to have disappeared sometime during the > 90s. There's still something on the web that pertains to their > trade-name, but they do not seem reachable by phone or e-mail. > > > You might try MCM electronics, as one possibility, though there are no > > doubt other suppliers as well that do mail-order. > > > > Those suppliers do have cross-reference materials available, though it's > > primarily oriented toward consumer equipment. > > True, but they cannot do 1-off custom. I have a handful of much-beloved > reel-to-reel audio tape decks and turntables in need of replacement > rubber. Is there anyone in the world tooled up for custom belts and > rollers anymore? I don't know any offhand, but have you checked MCM to see if possibly such an item is available as a stock part? As I said above, it's been a really long time since I've looked for this sort of thing... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 7 13:28:45 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 11:28:45 -0700 Subject: Sparcstation LX troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <44D782DE.2050406@neurotica.com> References: <200608071802.k77I24J1022396@onyx.spiritone.com> <44D782DE.2050406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44D7865D.5020003@dakotacom.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Still >> if NetBSD is anything like OpenBSD I'd think 64MB would be enough RAM. > > OpenBSD was originally derived from NetBSD, and remains substantially > similar...assuming SPARC, 64MB is quite spacious for all but the most > demanding applications, for either OS. Well, building kernels is painful. And, queries on some of my larger databases often tempt me to fire up another machine... But, each boxes of these are *quite* comfortable in their roles as appliances... I often wish I had kept all the other LX's and Classics that I had but I figured one of each is about all I can justify for "space" :-( (The LX's used to be Huey, Dewey and Louie while the Classics were Curly, Larry, Moe and Shemp :> ) From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 7 13:36:15 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 14:36:15 -0400 Subject: VAXen RULE! (WAS Microkernels) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608071436.15329.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 07 August 2006 12:18 pm, Scott Quinn wrote: > Segin, now you're trolling. Do you suspect that we can't list the > shortcomings of VAX just as easily as the shortcomings of x86? They pulled > alot over from the PDP-11 that should have been reimplemented for a 32-bit > arch... Can you elaborate on this a bit? I know very little about a lot of the different architectures and the only thing I know about the VAX as compared to the PDP-11 is that it deals with more memory... Could them pulling that stuff over have been some kind of an attempt to re-use existing code? > On the positive side, what is the most perfect computer architecture + > implementation people have come across here? Tell us why, especially if > it's something like PERQ or Acorn RISC/pc that is not common outside of a > limited geographic area. An interesting question and I will be looking forward to seeing some of the replies. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From technobug at comcast.net Mon Aug 7 13:46:55 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:46:55 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608071700.k77H08ln029566@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608071700.k77H08ln029566@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5AA6413B-FC73-4584-BA49-2C7DF3545412@comcast.net> On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 09:16:34 -0700, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > I used to have a CPU S100 board that I built for the National > PACE. That > CPU was a catastrophe. So slow and with very little NS support. > Given > its very early introduction, it could have been a comer had NS > taken any > interest in it. But at the time, NS was pushing the SC/MP and > signing > second-sourcing deals. > IIRC what made the NS PACE such a screaming shame was that it was a clone of the Data General Nova 1200. The thought of being able to gen up code on my lab system and stuff it into this little chip just made me drool up until I discovered that, fearing the wrath of DG, they split the program counter. That made it a 256 word paged machine rendering all the code generation facilities useless. It was a while before DG came out with a chip set that was priced out of sight (another company which wouldn't share...). CRC From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Aug 7 13:58:39 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 14:58:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608071403.26651.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20060807185839.047125804F@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Roy J. Tellason > > Wasn't the 68010 supposed to fix this? I have one of those, too... > I remember the 68010 was all the rage for Amiga owners when it came out.. All you had to do was replace your 68000 and BAM! you got almost close to a 10% speed increase... :) Cheers, Bryan From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Aug 7 14:57:12 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 14:57:12 Subject: Advanced Micro Computers (was How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060807145712.49bfec66@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi, I have some Multibus boards from an AMC Developement system. I was too late to save the system and many of the socketed ICs had already been pulled but I grabbed the boards anyway. Links to pictues here . Feel free to add any additional info that I missed. BTW Al also has some docs for AMC on his website. Joe At 09:50 AM 8/7/06 -0700, you wrote: > >Anyone remember AMC? A coop venture of AMD and Siemens (and maybe another >firm) to push the Z8000 with development tools? I still have a binder full >of documentation for their assembler. > >-- > >Yup. Have a fair amt of material on bitsavers from Philip Freidin from them, >along with some software. Friends back home developed a HVAC control system >using the AMC tools, and when I moved to the Bay Area, I met one of the last >people who was working on software at AMC. > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Aug 7 14:58:35 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 14:58:35 Subject: NS Pacer Re: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <5AA6413B-FC73-4584-BA49-2C7DF3545412@comcast.net> References: <200608071700.k77H08ln029566@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200608071700.k77H08ln029566@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060807145835.1a470018@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> FWIW I have a NS Pacer computer here. I've never tried to fire it up. Joe At 11:46 AM 8/7/06 -0700, you wrote: > >On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 09:16:34 -0700, "Chuck Guzis" >wrote: > >> >> I used to have a CPU S100 board that I built for the National >> PACE. That >> CPU was a catastrophe. So slow and with very little NS support. >> Given >> its very early introduction, it could have been a comer had NS >> taken any >> interest in it. But at the time, NS was pushing the SC/MP and >> signing >> second-sourcing deals. >> > >IIRC what made the NS PACE such a screaming shame was that it was a >clone of the Data General Nova 1200. The thought of being able to gen >up code on my lab system and stuff it into this little chip just made >me drool up until I discovered that, fearing the wrath of DG, they >split the program counter. That made it a 256 word paged machine >rendering all the code generation facilities useless. It was a while >before DG came out with a chip set that was priced out of sight >(another company which wouldn't share...). > > CRC > From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 7 14:14:15 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:14:15 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <20060807185839.047125804F@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060807185839.047125804F@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <200608071514.15368.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 07 August 2006 02:58 pm, Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Roy J. Tellason > > > Wasn't the 68010 supposed to fix this? I have one of those, too... > > I remember the 68010 was all the rage for Amiga owners when it came out.. > All you had to do was replace your 68000 and BAM! you got almost close > to a 10% speed increase... :) Well, that one is a 10 MHz part while the 68000 I have is I think an 8 MHz part, which is a bigger increase than that, but the clock driving the thing would need to be changed too, and I don't think they have exactly the same pinout, though it's been a really long time since I looked at that material. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 7 14:22:52 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:22:52 -0400 Subject: COM90C65? Message-ID: <200608071522.52198.rtellason@verizon.net> I've acquired a couple of tubes of these chips, NOS as far as I know, and can't seem to find any data on them at any of the usual places, though the COM90C66 datasheet mentions it briefly. I did find one email where a guy was looking for some but the post was several years old and the email address didn't work any more. Anybody have a datasheet for these? Know what they're good for? Need some? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 7 14:37:25 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 12:37:25 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <5AA6413B-FC73-4584-BA49-2C7DF3545412@comcast.net> References: <200608071700.k77H08ln029566@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5AA6413B-FC73-4584-BA49-2C7DF3545412@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200608071237250053.105A9C88@10.0.0.252> On 8/7/2006 at 11:46 AM CRC wrote: >IIRC what made the NS PACE such a screaming shame was that it was a >clone of the Data General Nova 1200. The thought of being able to gen >up code on my lab system and stuff it into this little chip just made >me drool up until I discovered that, fearing the wrath of DG, they >split the program counter. That made it a 256 word paged machine >rendering all the code generation facilities useless. It was a while >before DG came out with a chip set that was priced out of sight >(another company which wouldn't share...). IIRC, the PACE, while being based on the same architectural model as the Nova, had many substantial differences. There was another choice, Fairchild, with the 9440, but I never got further than "someone will call you, someday". I gathered that they didn't want to be bothered with something as mundane as sales. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 7 14:39:08 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 12:39:08 -0700 Subject: NS Pacer Re: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060807145835.1a470018@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200608071700.k77H08ln029566@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200608071700.k77H08ln029566@dewey.classiccmp.org> <3.0.6.16.20060807145835.1a470018@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200608071239080682.105C3155@10.0.0.252> On 8/7/2006 at 2:58 PM Joe R. wrote: >FWIW I have a NS Pacer computer here. I've never tried to fire it up. And run what? The vast library of PACE applications? Another area where National was never any good. Cheers, Chuck From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Aug 7 14:39:29 2006 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 21:39:29 +0200 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608071514.15368.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: >From: "Roy J. Tellason" >Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:14:15 -0400 > >On Monday 07 August 2006 02:58 pm, Bryan Pope wrote: > > And thusly were the wise words spake by Roy J. Tellason > > > > > Wasn't the 68010 supposed to fix this? I have one of those, too... > > > > I remember the 68010 was all the rage for Amiga owners when it came >out.. > > All you had to do was replace your 68000 and BAM! you got almost close > > to a 10% speed increase... :) > >Well, that one is a 10 MHz part while the 68000 I have is I think an 8 MHz >part, which is a bigger increase than that, but the clock driving the >thing >would need to be changed too, and I don't think they have exactly the same >pinout, though it's been a really long time since I looked at that >material. Yes, it's been a while for me too, but AFAIR both the 68000 and 68010 can be obtained at higher speed ratings. My StarShip had a self-developed 68000 board, and I upgraded it to a 68010. Hardware-wise that is simple, as they are pin-compatible. Software-wise it depends what you are doing. In my case, I had a tiny operating system to schedule tasks, a time-wait queue, etc., it was trickier, because the *stack frame* that a 68000 and a 68010 push onto the hardware stack when an exception occurs is *different*. My OS used exceptions to return from user to supervisor mode (which is BTW the only method). But the 68010 was a little faster, especial in tiny (3 instruction IIRC) loops, which where "cached". I am not sure there where much extra fancy instructions as as soon after that upgrade got a 68020 (at 30 MHz) running, and that one had a few instructions that I really missed on the 68000. Yes, I am a "Moto-man", not an "Intel-chap" :-) - Henk, PA8PDP. _________________________________________________________________ Eindeloos zoeken naar dat ene document is nu voorbij! http://desktop.msn.nl From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 7 14:42:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 12:42:45 -0700 Subject: COM90C65? In-Reply-To: <200608071522.52198.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608071522.52198.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608071242450073.105F7E9C@10.0.0.252> On 8/7/2006 at 3:22 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Anybody have a datasheet for these? Know what they're good for? Need >some? They're an ARCnet controller. Here's a datasheet: http://www.smsc.com/main/tools/discontinued/90c66.pdf From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 7 14:47:01 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 12:47:01 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608071237250053.105A9C88@10.0.0.252> References: <200608071700.k77H08ln029566@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5AA6413B-FC73-4584-BA49-2C7DF3545412@comcast.net> <200608071237250053.105A9C88@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D798B5.5070801@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > There was another choice, > Fairchild, with the 9440, but I never got further than "someone will call > you, someday". I gathered that they didn't want to be bothered with > something as mundane as sales. I think even firms that *did* try to sell product were piss-poor on follow-through. You'd either get no callbacks. Or, no *detailed* literature. Or, crappy development tools. Or, ridiculous lead-times. Or, exhorbitant pricing. Or, buggy parts... (sigh) I wonder what it was like for many smaller firms trying to do business for some of these parts? When you're looking to buy 10K a year, they'll send out the actual (chip) *designers* to pitch their parts (I've got an interesting assortment of "jewelry" over the years... 68K tiepins, etc.). If you're buying *100* a year, I wonder if they even acknowledged your existence? :-( Amusing to see how many of them have folded or scaled back. :> From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 7 14:48:24 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 12:48:24 -0700 Subject: COM90C65? In-Reply-To: <200608071522.52198.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608071522.52198.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44D79908.8070306@dakotacom.net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I've acquired a couple of tubes of these chips, NOS as far as I know, and > can't seem to find any data on them at any of the usual places, though the > COM90C66 datasheet mentions it briefly. I did find one email where a guy was > looking for some but the post was several years old and the email address > didn't work any more. > > Anybody have a datasheet for these? Know what they're good for? Need some? IIRC, SMsC made something like this (?) for ARCnet. Dog slow. :< From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Aug 7 14:49:37 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 20:49:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: "Roy J. Tellason" "Re: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...)" (Aug 7, 15:14) References: <20060807185839.047125804F@mail.wordstock.com> <200608071514.15368.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <10608072049.ZM8311@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Aug 7 2006, 15:14, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Well, that one is a 10 MHz part while the 68000 I have is I think an 8 MHz > part, which is a bigger increase than that, but the clock driving the thing > would need to be changed too, and I don't think they have exactly the same > pinout, though it's been a really long time since I looked at that material. They do have the same pinout, and a 68010 is a drop-in replacement for a 68000. Except they stopped making it ages ago, and it's easier to get a 68000 than a 68010. The 68010 fixed the problem of not being able to recover from an interrupted instruction, handles double bus faults correctly, added a few vectors, made the exception vectors relocatable, and fixed the problem that getting back to supervisor mode from user mode wasn't privileged in the original 68000 (which made a nonsense of any protection schemes). However, it has some other minor differences that mean it may not be 100% software compatible with a 68000, for example the revised exception stack frames. I'd have to dig out some very old course notes to tell you more. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 7 14:54:20 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 12:54:20 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D79A6C.8090306@dakotacom.net> Henk Gooijen wrote: > > Yes, it's been a while for me too, but AFAIR both the 68000 and 68010 > can be obtained at higher speed ratings. My StarShip had a self-developed I think the 68K (in the aircraft carrier package) maxed out at 16MHz. At least, the engineering samples that I have stop at that speed grade... No idea what has happened in its mutated forms since then... (though I think the aircraft carrier was abandoned... d*mn WW sockets barely fit in a parts drawer! :> ) > 68000 board, and I upgraded it to a 68010. Hardware-wise that is simple, > as they are pin-compatible. Software-wise it depends what you are doing. > In my case, I had a tiny operating system to schedule tasks, a time-wait > queue, etc., it was trickier, because the *stack frame* that a 68000 and a > 68010 push onto the hardware stack when an exception occurs is *different*. > My OS used exceptions to return from user to supervisor mode (which is BTW > the only method). > But the 68010 was a little faster, especial in tiny (3 instruction IIRC) > loops, which where "cached". Yes. You either need a smart compiler that took advantage of these hacks (which was stretching things for the early 80's) *or* learned to hand tweak your code to take advantage of the shallow Icache. > I am not sure there where much extra fancy instructions as as soon after > that upgrade got a 68020 (at 30 MHz) running, and that one had a few > instructions that I really missed on the 68000. > Yes, I am a "Moto-man", not an "Intel-chap" :-) With all this 68K chatter... has anyone a copy of the RGP spec? I can't figure out which box mine is hiding in. And, does anyone know if they ever made any Si for it? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Aug 7 15:11:52 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 21:11:52 +0100 Subject: Macs and PCs vs workstations In-Reply-To: <200608071817.k77IHcHq025029@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 7/8/06 19:17, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > I finally used IDE on an Alpha for the first time this last week on one of > my new XP1000's. It wasn't stellar, but as I was booting from CD-ROM, I > didn't expect much. Thanks for reminding me - my Alpha DS10 was, according to the Alpha Technologies course, designed to be an IDE machine out of the box despite that every DS10 I've worked on ever had a Qlogic QLA1040 (or equivalent) SCSI board in running 2 or 3 U2/U3 SCSI drives. Time to dig out a spare IDE drive and see how different the speed is! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 7 15:14:11 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 13:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608062216500942.0D46B92B@10.0.0.252> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <44D4D2A6.1010007@gmail.com> <44D6BEBC.4040407@gmail.com> <200608062139290168.0D248158@10.0.0.252> <44D6C77C.70007@gmail.com> <200608062216500942.0D46B92B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060807131329.I78045@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 6 Aug 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Two-pi was a Santa Clara Valley firm (IIRC, Cupertino) that manufactured > S/370 clones. Very nice workstation-sized units. I think they were > absorbed by Four Phase. Did anyone here ever use one of those XT boardsets for 360 or 370? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 7 15:32:14 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 13:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctalk: Spam? In-Reply-To: <04c601c6ba31$e32fead0$0401a8c0@solution.engineers> References: <04c601c6ba31$e32fead0$0401a8c0@solution.engineers> Message-ID: <20060807132925.O78045@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Aug 2006, Ade Vickers wrote: > Is anyone else getting "spam" messages through this list? Stuff about stocks > & viagra mostly? > I seem to be getting 2-3/day, but I'm not sure if it's a general thing or > not... > Replies off-list would be preferred. Are you sure that it is THROUGH the list, not simply your address harvested from a list message? I get plenty of that spam, but none of it coming THROUGH the list. The Comdex management sold their email list to spammers. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 7 15:43:12 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 13:43:12 -0700 Subject: cctalk: Spam? In-Reply-To: <20060807132925.O78045@shell.lmi.net> References: <04c601c6ba31$e32fead0$0401a8c0@solution.engineers> <20060807132925.O78045@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200608071343120669.1096D8E8@10.0.0.252> On 8/7/2006 at 1:32 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >I get plenty of that spam, but none of it coming THROUGH the list. >The Comdex management sold their email list to spammers. ...who then sold it to other spammers, and so on. When I look at some spam, I'm amazed to see on the cc: list email addresses that haven't been active for 4 or 5 years. When I subscribe to newsgroups or lists, I invent a new email address for each. That way, if the spammers discover it, I can simply delete it and create another. Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 7 16:25:05 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 16:25:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: cctalk: Spam? Message-ID: <200608072125.k77LP5ms026815@keith.ezwind.net> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 7 Aug 2006, Ade Vickers wrote: > > Is anyone else getting "spam" messages through > this list? Stuff about stocks > > & viagra mostly? > > I seem to be getting 2-3/day, but I'm not sure i f > it's a general thing or > > not... > > Replies off-list would be preferred. > > Are you sure that it is THROUGH the list, not simp ly > your address > harvested from a list message? > > I get plenty of that spam, but none of it coming > THROUGH the list. > The Comdex management sold their email list to > spammers. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > That sucks. I hadn't heard of Comdex until I read an old 1981-ish article about it in one of my 80 Microcomputing magazines. Exactly how long was Comdex a yearly event for? I think it's stupid that the Comdex management would sell the email list to spammers... unless it was just one evil fish in the pond? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Aug 7 16:10:31 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 17:10:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sparcstation LX troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <44D77FA0.7090400@mdrconsult.com> References: <200608071716.k77HG08L015267@onyx.spiritone.com> <44D77ABC.1020405@neurotica.com> <44D77CD6.5060608@dakotacom.net> <44D77FA0.7090400@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200608072112.RAA04192@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The LX is an OK system, but if you ran local graphics, the Classic > was just about the definition of suck. Yeah. The Classic was the one with a cg3 onboard, rather than a cg6. The cg3 was about as dumb as a dumb colour 8bpp framebuffer could get, and it showed. If I wanted to use a Classic headed, I'd put a cg6 in it, minimum. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 7 17:20:32 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 22:20:32 +0000 Subject: Numonics graphics tablet protocol? Message-ID: <44D7BCB0.1020607@yahoo.co.uk> Longest of long shots... :-) I don't suppose anyone has any documentation on the 'packed binary' format that Numonics used to use for their graphics tablets, do they? (Specifically a model 2206 A3 serial tablet, current somewhere around 1990 I suspect) I managed to guess DIP switch settings and serial line settings to a point that I can get useful ASCII data out of the tablet (coordinates and button info) - but if I could interpret the packed binary stream hopefully it'd make the tablet seem a lot more responsive... cheers Jules -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Aug 7 16:21:34 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 16:21:34 -0500 Subject: SPARCstation LX troubleshooting Message-ID: <9cc941d0ecc94edfb0e501fe838a3fc0@valleyimplants.com> > I have 2 that I picked up the other day. They "appear" to power up (e.g. >lights, drive seeking, etc). I tried 2 different monitors, but I don't get >any video. I believe that Suns can be set to ignore the graphics console and immediately go to TTY. Definitely plug in a term and see what happens. There are PROM commands to change back to graphics. >I'd recommend looking into running either OpenBSD or maybe NetBSD on them. >I know OpenBSD has a small enough memory footprint to fit on one nicely >(won't guarentee it's supported hardware though as I don't have any LX's). >Even Solaris 2.6 will be painful on one. Be Classic- SunOS 4.1.4! NetBSD is a second-place contender, but good if you need all the new stuff, it doesn't have all the Sunny goodness, though. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 7 16:26:33 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 14:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Comdex (Was: cctalk: Spam? In-Reply-To: <200608072125.k77LP5ms026815@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608072125.k77LP5ms026815@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20060807142027.L78045@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Aug 2006 aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > I hadn't heard of Comdex until I read an old > 1981-ish article about it in one of my 80 > Microcomputing magazines. > Exactly how long was Comdex a yearly event > for? 1981?? until 2003 at it's peak (~1990) it had well over 150K attendees (The management usually about doubled the numbers), and used up just about every hotel room and exhibit hall in Vegas. Because I was exhibiting, I never got a chance to see the stuff at Cashman field center, nor even Adultdex at the Sahara. > I think it's stupid that the Comdex management > would sell the email list to spammers... unless > it was just one evil fish in the pond? It probably wasn't deliberate. They probably sold the list to at least one group that they shouldn't have, who then resold it far and wide. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 7 16:29:53 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:29:53 -0400 Subject: cctalk: Spam? In-Reply-To: <200608071343120669.1096D8E8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608072143.k77Lh12X027222@keith.ezwind.net> On Mon, 07 Aug 2006 13:43:12 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >...who then sold it to other spammers, and so on. When I look at some >spam, I'm amazed to see on the cc: list email addresses that haven't been >active for 4 or 5 years. When I subscribe to newsgroups or lists, I invent >a new email address for each. That way, if the spammers discover it, I can >simply delete it and create another. In June 1994 I set up my first domain and used it as an internet gateway to the VirtualNet BBS network runing the VBBS Software, in 1996 I shut down the VBBS BBS and switched to IMS under NT3.5 at that time I "killed off all but a few of the origional email accounts and changed direction. It is now 10 years latter and I reject more spam addresses to long gone yet timeless addresses, than the entire mail load when it was running af full load. These accounts have been blackholed for a little over 10 years, yet remain on many lists. Then there are the kids, I can assure you there has never been a batman at cave.com or bat or dragon on any one of a number of such addresses. I have had cave.com since the begining, back when domain names were still free, but alas mail still comes in addressed to kids who have forged those address in the past. There is good reason I trash most mail to bob at cave.com it gets hundreds of spams a day, yet every once in so often someone from the past emails me there and it makes it through the filters. There are several spam engines sending what looks like cctalk addressed spam. I got some to an old email address I have posted to the list from in the past, and yet the same spam did not come through the list to the address I am currently subscribed from, and have posted little to nothing from. just my thoughts ... Bob Bradlee From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Mon Aug 7 16:32:24 2006 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 23:32:24 +0200 Subject: Numonics graphics tablet protocol? In-Reply-To: <44D7BCB0.1020607@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44D7BCB0.1020607@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20060807213223.GA4352@lug-owl.de> On Mon, 2006-08-07 22:20:32 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > I managed to guess DIP switch settings and serial line settings to a point > that I can get useful ASCII data out of the tablet (coordinates and button > info) - but if I could interpret the packed binary stream hopefully it'd > make the tablet seem a lot more responsive... Usually, these packets are quite easy to decipher. Just capture the serial stream and move the pen horizonthally (maybe along the top or bottem line), then look at the stream. The x coordinate should be easy to guess. Repeat with a vertical line. Repeat with buttons or varying preassure. Most of the tablets I know set the most significant bit of a packet's first packet to allow for easy packet-start scanning. (The downside is that all following bytes waste one bit because the high-bit cannot be used...) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: God put me on earth to accomplish a certain number of things. the second : Right now I am so far behind I will never die. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 7 16:36:27 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:36:27 -0400 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <20060807131329.I78045@shell.lmi.net> References: <44D406EB.6060607@gmail.com> <44D40D46.8050609@DakotaCom.Net> <44D4C073.2090107@arachelian.com> <44D4D2A6.1010007@gmail.com> <44D6BEBC.4040407@gmail.com> <200608062139290168.0D248158@10.0.0.252> <44D6C77C.70007@gmail.com> <200608062216500942.0D46B92B@10.0.0.252> <20060807131329.I78045@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <44D7B25B.3060203@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 6 Aug 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Two-pi was a Santa Clara Valley firm (IIRC, Cupertino) that manufactured >> S/370 clones. Very nice workstation-sized units. I think they were >> absorbed by Four Phase. > > Did anyone here ever use one of those XT boardsets for 360 or 370? I own a P/370, a P/390 MCA, to P/390 PCI's and a P/390E. Two of the machines (the P/390 MCA and the P/390E) are running. Peace... Sridhar From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Aug 7 16:46:04 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:46:04 -0400 Subject: Numonics graphics tablet protocol? In-Reply-To: <44D7BCB0.1020607@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060807174204.050f01a8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: >Longest of long shots... :-) Don't say that until you've seen my "help." ;-) >I don't suppose anyone has any documentation on the 'packed binary' format >that Numonics used to use for their graphics tablets, do they? >(Specifically a model 2206 A3 serial tablet, current somewhere around 1990 >I suspect) > >I managed to guess DIP switch settings and serial line settings to a point >that I can get useful ASCII data out of the tablet (coordinates and button >info) - but if I could interpret the packed binary stream hopefully it'd >make the tablet seem a lot more responsive... Not me, but the folks over at www.vtablet.com support some Numonics tablets, and in the "supported tablets list" here: http://www.vtablet.com/download/Digitize.txt they list the protocol they support for those as "Numonics," so they may have info WRT this. Not sure if they'd help, but the worst they can say if you ask is "no." ;-) No affiliation w/the company other than being a happy customer - theirs is the only software that allowed me to use my Kurta IS/ONE 12x12 digitizer w/Win2K. HTH (but it mightn't ;-), Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 7 17:00:00 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 18:00:00 -0400 Subject: COM90C65? In-Reply-To: <200608071242450073.105F7E9C@10.0.0.252> References: <200608071522.52198.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608071242450073.105F7E9C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608071800.00797.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 07 August 2006 03:42 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/7/2006 at 3:22 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >Anybody have a datasheet for these? Know what they're good for? Need > >some? > > They're an ARCnet controller. Here's a datasheet: > > http://www.smsc.com/main/tools/discontinued/90c66.pdf No, I have that one and the sheet refers to the '65, but another reference (found here: http://www.gisceu.com/epdf_files/U206.pdf ) says in a table at the bottom of page 5 that it's an "XT Interface". The '66 _is_ an ARCnet chip though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 7 17:11:07 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 15:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Macs and PCs vs workstations In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Aug 07, 2006 09:11:52 PM Message-ID: <200608072211.k77MB7OL031280@onyx.spiritone.com> > On 7/8/06 19:17, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > I finally used IDE on an Alpha for the first time this last week on one of > > my new XP1000's. It wasn't stellar, but as I was booting from CD-ROM, I > > didn't expect much. > > Thanks for reminding me - my Alpha DS10 was, according to the Alpha > Technologies course, designed to be an IDE machine out of the box despite > that every DS10 I've worked on ever had a Qlogic QLA1040 (or equivalent) > SCSI board in running 2 or 3 U2/U3 SCSI drives. Time to dig out a spare IDE > drive and see how different the speed is! > > -- > Adrian/Witchy I'm actually threatening to put a large ~250GB IDE drive in my XP1000/667, as a backup device. Shouldn't be to hard to create a batch job that backs up the drives in the middle of the night and resubmits itself. Though it has been quite a while since I did any serious DCL scripting. As the system has a built in UW-SCSI, plus I've added U2W-SCSI, and FW-SCSI-Diff, I have no desire to try and actually run on IDE! I'm thinking regular backups to the IDE drive, and occasional backups to DLT. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 7 17:15:24 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 15:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SPARCstation LX troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <9cc941d0ecc94edfb0e501fe838a3fc0@valleyimplants.com> from "Scott Quinn" at Aug 07, 2006 04:21:34 PM Message-ID: <200608072215.k77MFOCJ031455@onyx.spiritone.com> > >I'd recommend looking into running either OpenBSD or maybe NetBSD on them. > >I know OpenBSD has a small enough memory footprint to fit on one nicely > >(won't guarentee it's supported hardware though as I don't have any LX's). > >Even Solaris 2.6 will be painful on one. > > Be Classic- SunOS 4.1.4! NetBSD is a second-place contender, but good if you need all the > new stuff, it doesn't have all the Sunny goodness, though. Isn't SunOS 4.1.4 rather insecure in this day and age? Not to mention harder to obtain. Zane From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 7 17:23:40 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:23:40 -0700 Subject: "misload" error on JB Message-ID: <44D7BD6C.6030906@dakotacom.net> When trying to eject a cartridge from one of my JB's, I get a "MISLOAD" error reported on the front panel. Media is accessible, otherwise, just won't eject. I've never seen this before. And the choice of message seems misleading (I could understand a "misload" on a *load* but not an "eject"!) I've just started to take the skin off the JB so I can get access to the drive. Is this just a nuisance error (perhaps caused by manhandling the JB while media was loaded) or a harbinger of Bad Things to come? :< From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 7 17:26:08 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 15:26:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: College workstations (was: Macs and PCs vs workstations In-Reply-To: <200608072211.k77MB7OL031280@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608072211.k77MB7OL031280@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20060807151542.V78045@shell.lmi.net> About ten years ago, at the school, we had a lab full of 386's, that worked just fine for a learning (non-production) environment. You don't NEED, nor even WANT, a fast machine for LEARNING sort algorithms, etc. There were enough that there was hardly ever a wait to use a machine. One of our administrators wanted to TRADE ALL of the PCs for 3 or 4 486 machines. We barely managed to stop him. One day, our department chair came running into the lab, more excited than we had ever seen her before. She said that we were going to be getting SUNs!! She had just heard that the administration was getting us some "multimedia workstations"! (And, in her mind, that equated with Sun.) The big day arrived, and in came three large boxes clearly labelled "multimedia workstation", that were about 3' x 6' by 1'. The "multimedia workstations' that we got were fancy computer desk/carts. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Aug 7 17:29:50 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 17:29:50 -0500 Subject: Need help with LAT > SSH tunnel Message-ID: <000101c6ba70$ff942440$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Does anyone know if there is an easy way to forward a LAT connection to either SSH or Telnet on a VMS 8.2 machine? I have a PDP-11 running RSTS/E that has no form of TCP/IP available, only LAT and DECnet, and I want to make it available via SSH connection through the VMS system. Any help would be appreciated. Julian From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 7 17:31:06 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 15:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "misload" error on JB In-Reply-To: <44D7BD6C.6030906@dakotacom.net> from "Don" at Aug 07, 2006 03:23:40 PM Message-ID: <200608072231.k77MV6bB031965@onyx.spiritone.com> > When trying to eject a cartridge from one of my JB's, > I get a "MISLOAD" error reported on the front panel. > Media is accessible, otherwise, just won't eject. > > I've never seen this before. And the choice of > message seems misleading (I could understand a "misload" > on a *load* but not an "eject"!) > > I've just started to take the skin off the JB so I > can get access to the drive. Is this just a nuisance > error (perhaps caused by manhandling the JB while > media was loaded) or a harbinger of Bad Things to come? > > :< You might want to mention the manufacturer, model, and type of drive(s). Generally this sort of problem is a sign of something being broken. Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 7 17:38:13 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 10:38:13 +1200 Subject: Macs and PCs vs workstations In-Reply-To: References: <30a25e66f80541c79f3f77b309ee64bf@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: On 8/7/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > My point was that VAX/VMS became OpenVMS which runs on both VAX and > Alpha with v6.0, IIRC. The newest version to run on the VAX is 7.3. > I've no idea if they're ever going to do one of the 8.x versions for > the VAX. The roadmap on the HP website might give a clue. Ah... I missed the semantic distinction. I'm with you now. -ethan From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Aug 7 17:37:29 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 17:37:29 -0500 Subject: SPARCstation LX troubleshooting Message-ID: <5ba7ddba6f3f4ab2af9de74f5c9a3714@valleyimplants.com> >Isn't SunOS 4.1.4 rather insecure in this day and age? Not to mention >harder to obtain. I would be very careful before putting it on a publically-accessable network, but there's no indication that that will be happening here. A bit more difficult to come by- yes, but wasn't there a discussion here a bit ago about mating the computer with a representative operating system when possible to maintain the period unity? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 7 16:49:12 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 22:49:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Truth (was: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <20060806160906.N26433@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 6, 6 04:17:48 pm Message-ID: > Or to make it on-topic here, turning an ASR33 over by hand. For anyone > > who has such a machine, or any other mechancial teleprinter, I strongly > > recoemnd doing this. > > yes, INDEED! Incidentally, if you've just reassembled some complex mechanical device, like an ASR33, _ALWAYS_ turn it over by hand before powering up the motor. It's better to detect you've got something out of adjustment that will jam the mechanism when _you're_ turning it than to have the motor strip some gear teeth or worse. (And yes, I will admit I learnt that the hard way!) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 7 16:57:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 22:57:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Truth (was: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <200608062108.26974.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Aug 6, 6 09:08:26 pm Message-ID: > > On Sunday 06 August 2006 07:43 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Get yourself a good book on fluidics. IIRC, a fluidic computer was > > supposed to replace electronics in rugged environment situations. > > Isn't that how an automatic transmission is supposed to work? Although they YEs. I have several workshop manuals that cover the Borg-Warner 35 transmission (this was the common automatic transmission used on UK cars in the 1970s). It really is a clever design. The hydraulic pump, driven by the engine, is not just used to provide the pressure to operate the clutches and brake bands, said pressure is also used to move valves against spring pressure. The faster the engine turns, the more pressure you get from the pump, and at a certain point the valbe moves far enough to select some other function. The better manuals explain exactly what happens for each gear shift... > apparently have electronics in the newer ones... Alas yes. My father has just got a new car with electronics everywhere :-(. There's a control unit for the (automatic) gearbox. According to the workshop manual, there are 6 solenoid valves inside the gearbox, and also a manual slide valve coupled to the selector lever. Alas it doesn't explain what the latter does (if it fails you change the whole valve block), it doesn't explain what each of the solenoids does (it does give the dC resistances and the pins on the conector that each solenoid is linked to so you can find a defective solenoid) Oh well. I don't suppose I'll ever have to get amongst this, but it would be interesting to know what's going on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 7 17:31:38 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 23:31:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: VAXen RULE! (WAS Microkernels) In-Reply-To: from "Scott Quinn" at Aug 7, 6 11:18:11 am Message-ID: > On the positive side, what is the most perfect computer architecture + > implementation people have come across here? > Tell us why, especially if it's something like PERQ or Acorn RISC/pc > that is not common outside of a limited geographic area. Mosyt beuatiful piece of electronics (related to computation :-)) that it's been my pleasure to work on has to be the HP9100. It's an amazingly elegant design. On the other hand it's a lousy computer architecture, there's not even a full adder. Just increment and decrment on the main registers. But my 'prize' for the nicrst architecture of all time is the classic PERQ, particualarly the 16K CPU version. It's very clean at the microcode level, you have 256 (!) gerenal purpose registers, with an index register to address them if you want it. You don't get hardware multiply and divide, but you do get MULSTEP and DIVSTEP -- hardware to do 1 bit of said operations. Just stick it in a microcode loop. And of course yuo can modify the microcode as much as you like. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 7 17:12:16 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 23:12:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D6A9BB.8080007@arachelian.com> from "Ray Arachelian" at Aug 6, 6 10:47:23 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > That very much depends on the CPU. If the CPU is many chips (not a single > > package) with microcode in PROMs, there's nothing to stop you desoldering > > said PROMs and reading them out. I've done that, then written a > > disassembler for the microode instructions and worked out what was going on. > > > True, but you don't find CPU's made of discrete logic these days, so it > makes it very difficult to get at the microcode. Such CPUs may not be _made_ now, but this is the classiccmp list. I would guess that many of the regulars here have at least one processor built from simple logic chips. I am trying to think how many I have. It's going to be at least 20. > > And some CPUs, the PERQ being probably the most common example, load > > their microcode from disk at power-on. In which case you might even get a > > mcirocode assembler and disassember as standard OS tools. If not, you can > > write them. > This is one machine I've been wishing for, for quite some time. Were Hasn't somebody just offerend one on the list? They're not _that_ rare, unless you are trying to get a T4 (which you will _NOT_ find...) > there any emulators of these? Are there enough docs, schematics and > copies of the software online somewhere? Would be sad to lose this Yes. Known to exist are schematics for all models apart from the T4 (I must trace them out one day). Most are on bitsavers (I don't think the 3a (AGW3300) disagrams are there, the only known set is reverse-engineered anyway. And this machine isn't a classic PERQ, it's a 68020-based unix workstation, albeit with an itneresting graphics processor). Those scheamtics should be fairly complete. I have some bits not in the offical books, like diagrams for the keyboards, monitors, disk drives, even some PSUs PROM/PAL dumps (and equations for the latter) exist for all known PERQs (including the T4). I think the only thing I don't have are the modified programemd chips for the ST506 disk Interface board (DIB). I have the ones for the normal ST412-compatible DIB, but there was apparently a modified board to use with real ST506. I've never seen it, don't have any details of the changes. > machine to the ravages of time. I don't think that will happen. There are some serious PERQ-fanatics out there. > > This is rather a higher level tham I was considering it. I was thinking > > more along the lines of 'Decoder U55 decodes the 3-bit field consisting > > of micorocode bits 23-25. Output 4 of this decoder enables OR gate U27c > > which passes the delayed clock to the clock input of the D-type U71a. > > This stores the carry output of the ALU, and acts as a carry flag' > > > > Yes, I do often consider CPUs at that level > > > Wow. You da man! ;-) Perhaps I should explain that I am not interested in computers. Before you all wonder what I am doing here, I will add that I am interested in ingenious machines of all types, and I find computers to be, in quite a few cases, very ingenious bits of electronics. What that means is that I am primarily interested in the hardware. I think in terms of gates and flip-flops. I want to stick my 'scope probe into the CPU :-). This has a couple of implications. Firstly I am not a programmer. Sure I can program. If I have to, I'll write a program. But I am not going to pretend I understand all that goes on inside, say, a linux kernel. And I don't appreciate good and bad programming in the same way that I sometimes exclaim 'how beautiful' when looking at a piece of hardware design. Secodly, I have little interest in emulators. You can't stick a 'scope probe into the CPU of an _emulated_ HP9830. But I've done it on a real one many times. Note this is not a flame against people who write emulators, or who use them, or who like them. If that's what you like, fine. You're doing a great job preserving software and letting people run it. Which is important. But I don't have to be interested in that. > Sweet! Reminds me of the Xerox Star where it uses an 8085 to load code > into a custom made bit-sliced microcoded CPU, and even allows individual > applications to roll their own microcode... Not suprising. There are many similarities between the Xerox workstations and the PERQ. The fact that Brian Rosen worked on both may have something to do with it :-) But there are also differences. The PERQ's I/O processor (a Z80) most certainly does not load the CPU control store. And having compared the designs of the PERQ and the Xerox Daybreak (the only D-machine I've been lucky enough to find), I will say I think the PERQ is the much better design. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 7 17:16:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 23:16:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: PERQ POSSIBLY AVAILABLE In-Reply-To: <039601c6b9de$e98dcb20$6401a8c0@odin> from "Michael Green" at Aug 6, 6 10:04:07 pm Message-ID: > > I found a guy local that has a PERQ system for sale. Not much interest in Where is 'local'[1]? This is an international list with members in many countries!. And even if I assume it's in the States, I am told that's a very big country. > it for me but thought one of you guys might be into it. He wants $200. If it's a complete and repairable (not necessarily working) machine, then I think that's a fair price. [1] Reminds me of a 'definition' i heard years ago. If a service manual says that a special tool is available 'locally' then it's either a misprint for 'luckily' or the name of an obscure village in Wales :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 7 17:25:14 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 23:25:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... In-Reply-To: from "Steven N. Hirsch" at Aug 7, 6 08:00:04 am Message-ID: > True, but they cannot do 1-off custom. I have a handful of much-beloved > reel-to-reel audio tape decks and turntables in need of replacement > rubber. Is there anyone in the world tooled up for custom belts and > rollers anymore? A couple of ideas, one for belts (which I have used), the other for rollers (which I might try soon if nobody tells me it doesn't work). For belts, RS components sell (or sold?) a make-your-own O-ring kit. You got verious diameters of rubber 'cord' and a jig to cut it square and glue the ends together with some kind of isocyano acrylic hydrocopolymerising adhesive. The catalogue and instructions said that this kit could make drive belts for 'light mechancial duty', which seems to cover tape recorders. I made a drive belt for my N1500 VCR using it, works fine (although it's not used that much, sure). For rollers, there are companies who sell a 2-pack product that cures to form a synthetic rubber (yes, I know that's a contradiction in terms, but you know what I mean). Devcon is the one I've come across. It's not cheap, but it does say it can be used to make rollers. You'd haev to make a mould (a reasonably easy bit of machine shop work in most cases, I think). The problem is that you're _supposd_ to use the whole tin of stuff at once. Firstly that's more than you'd need to make one roller, and secondly, you are likely to need several attempts when starting out (and at \pounds 30.00 a tin, this gets ridiculously expensive fast). However, I've head that people have weighed out part of the tin and mixed that wiht no problems. -tony From gklinger at gmail.com Mon Aug 7 17:49:09 2006 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 17:49:09 -0500 Subject: Sparcstation LX troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <44D77CD6.5060608@dakotacom.net> References: <200608071716.k77HG08L015267@onyx.spiritone.com> <44D77ABC.1020405@neurotica.com> <44D77CD6.5060608@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: Don wrote: > And, you can squeeze 96M into the LX (haven't tried that trick > with the Classic -- yet) While the advertised maximum amount of RAM is 96MB (6 x 16MB modules) you can in fact install 128MB of RAM into a Sparc LX. Two of the six slots will recognize 32MB modules (2 x 32MB + 4 x 16MB = 128MB) which is double the capacity of the IPC and IPX although, as noted by others, the IPC and IPX support the 64MB SBUS card originally intended for the Sparc 1, 1+ and 2. I can also confirm that the Classic has an on-board CG3 and the LX has an on-board CG6. The former is almost unusable and the latter is relatively decent, albeit only at 8 bits per pixel. I've got the world's most 'pimped out' (I think that's the phrase the teenagers are using) LX system gathering dust in my basement. I just don't have the heart to junk it and I can't find anyone that would put it to good use. (If that sounds like you, email me. I'm in Toronto BTW.) I've also got a RasterFlex/HR (24 bit accelerated SBUS framebuffer) with 8MB of on-board RAM if anyone is interested. Manufacturer supported drivers up to Solaris 2.51 (if memory serves) although I think it works with 2.6 and perhaps beyond. It has been a long time since I've used it. I do remember that it's fast as heck compared to Sun's anemic framebuffers. Ah, the memories... -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 7 18:02:10 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:02:10 -0700 Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D7C672.1020703@dakotacom.net> > True, but they cannot do 1-off custom. I have a handful of much-beloved > reel-to-reel audio tape decks and turntables in need of replacement > rubber. Is there anyone in the world tooled up for custom belts and > rollers anymore? Are you sure your needs are "custom"? Flat/toothed belts tend to be hard to find "in variety"... but I have been able to find almost *any* of the round or "square" (cross sectional) belts used in most consumer gear. Do you have an existing belt to use as a template? Or, barring that, the diameters of the pulleys and their center-to-center distances (from which computing belt size is straightforward...) Typically, these belts run $1 - $2 ... which is outrageous when you consider you're buying a glorified "rubber band" but a *steal* when you consider it's actual VALUE!! From coredump at gifford.co.uk Mon Aug 7 18:04:06 2006 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 00:04:06 +0100 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <44D6D46D.1050109@dakotacom.net> References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <44D47B88.8040909@neurotica.com> <44D53EB0.2090907@neurotica.com> <44D53F6C.2040807@dakotacom.net> <012001c6b916$e9437890$0b01a8c0@game> <44D6D46D.1050109@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44D7C6E6.8030500@gifford.co.uk> Don wrote: > Any suggestions for the G3? How about one of the PPC Linuxes? I run Ubuntu on mine. I needs a bit of subterfuge to get it installed (the installation/boot disk is meant for New World Macs), but once it's on there, it runs really well. I used BootX to get the installation CD to run: http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/beigeg3.htm Darnit, I must get a photo of the machine on that page... -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 7 18:04:08 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:04:08 -0700 Subject: "misload" error on JB In-Reply-To: <200608072231.k77MV6bB031965@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608072231.k77MV6bB031965@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <44D7C6E8.6000400@dakotacom.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> When trying to eject a cartridge from one of my JB's, >> I get a "MISLOAD" error reported on the front panel. >> Media is accessible, otherwise, just won't eject. >> >> I've never seen this before. And the choice of >> message seems misleading (I could understand a "misload" >> on a *load* but not an "eject"!) >> >> I've just started to take the skin off the JB so I >> can get access to the drive. Is this just a nuisance >> error (perhaps caused by manhandling the JB while >> media was loaded) or a harbinger of Bad Things to come? >> >> :< > > You might want to mention the manufacturer, model, and type of drive(s). > > Generally this sort of problem is a sign of something being broken. Problem appears to just have been media not "seated" well enough for the picker to grab it. I'm running the picker diagnostics now which exercises the load/eject/move capabilities of the picker as well as the drives. If that fares well, I'll just assume something got "disturbed" when I was moving the box around... From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 7 18:07:28 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:07:28 -0700 Subject: Sparcstation LX troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: <200608071716.k77HG08L015267@onyx.spiritone.com> <44D77ABC.1020405@neurotica.com> <44D77CD6.5060608@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44D7C7B0.1060301@dakotacom.net> Golan Klinger wrote: > Don wrote: > >> And, you can squeeze 96M into the LX (haven't tried that trick >> with the Classic -- yet) > > While the advertised maximum amount of RAM is 96MB (6 x 16MB modules) > you can in fact install 128MB of RAM into a Sparc LX. Two of the six Then I misspoke :< I must have 128M in it because the oversized SIMMs in the first two slots is what I have done. I just don't know if that works in the Classic as well... > slots will recognize 32MB modules (2 x 32MB + 4 x 16MB = 128MB) which > is double the capacity of the IPC and IPX although, as noted by > others, the IPC and IPX support the 64MB SBUS card originally intended > for the Sparc 1, 1+ and 2. > > I can also confirm that the Classic has an on-board CG3 and the LX has > an on-board CG6. The former is almost unusable and the latter is > relatively decent, albeit only at 8 bits per pixel. > > I've got the world's most 'pimped out' (I think that's the phrase the > teenagers are using) LX system gathering dust in my basement. I just > don't have the heart to junk it and I can't find anyone that would put > it to good use. (If that sounds like you, email me. I'm in Toronto > BTW.) I've also got a RasterFlex/HR (24 bit accelerated SBUS > framebuffer) with 8MB of on-board RAM if anyone is interested. > Manufacturer supported drivers up to Solaris 2.51 (if memory serves) > although I think it works with 2.6 and perhaps beyond. It has been a > long time since I've used it. I do remember that it's fast as heck > compared to Sun's anemic framebuffers. > > Ah, the memories... From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Aug 7 18:10:16 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 00:10:16 +0100 Subject: Macs and PCs vs workstations In-Reply-To: <200608072211.k77MB7OL031280@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 7/8/06 23:11, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > I'm actually threatening to put a large ~250GB IDE drive in my XP1000/667, > as a backup device. Shouldn't be to hard to create a batch job that backs > up the drives in the middle of the night and resubmits itself. Though it > has been quite a while since I did any serious DCL scripting. As the system > has a built in UW-SCSI, plus I've added U2W-SCSI, and FW-SCSI-Diff, I have > no desire to try and actually run on IDE! I'm sure I won't be alone in offering DCL help for backups :o) If your IDE drive is the same size or bigger than the drive you're backing up and the IDE drive is initialised and mounted all you need to do is: $backup/image dkcnn: dqcn:[000000]dkcnn.bck/save 'course, YMMV depending on how you want to do things - IDE drive as a proper image copy, differential backups etc. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 7 18:12:41 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:12:41 -0700 Subject: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.) In-Reply-To: <44D7C6E6.8030500@gifford.co.uk> References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <44D47B88.8040909@neurotica.com> <44D53EB0.2090907@neurotica.com> <44D53F6C.2040807@dakotacom.net> <012001c6b916$e9437890$0b01a8c0@game> <44D6D46D.1050109@dakotacom.net> <44D7C6E6.8030500@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <44D7C8E9.1080201@dakotacom.net> John Honniball wrote: > Don wrote: >> Any suggestions for the G3? > > How about one of the PPC Linuxes? I run Ubuntu on mine. I would prefer to avoid the Linux world. > I needs a bit of subterfuge to get it installed (the > installation/boot disk is meant for New World Macs), > but once it's on there, it runs really well. I used > BootX to get the installation CD to run: > > http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/beigeg3.htm > > Darnit, I must get a photo of the machine on that page... Nearest I can tell, putting anything on these boxes means you *still* need to have a MacOS partition to boot first? I'd prefer *not* to have to put a monitor/keyboard on the machine... OTOH, I think I have A/UX sitting in my archive (but that;s only 68K... :< ) From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 7 18:13:15 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 16:13:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "misload" error on JB In-Reply-To: <44D7C6E8.6000400@dakotacom.net> from "Don" at Aug 07, 2006 04:04:08 PM Message-ID: <200608072313.k77NDGSP000654@onyx.spiritone.com> > Problem appears to just have been media not "seated" well > enough for the picker to grab it. I'm running the picker > diagnostics now which exercises the load/eject/move > capabilities of the picker as well as the drives. > > If that fares well, I'll just assume something got "disturbed" > when I was moving the box around... Hopefully that is all it is, the more likely culprit on the Jukeboxes I'm familiar with is the robotics controller. Do you have a "Calibrate All" type of option? If so I'd recommend running it. Zane From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Aug 7 18:16:25 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 16:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: tricep? what's tricep? Message-ID: I found some 5.25" floppies labeled "TRICEP UTILITIES" and "tricep standalone with UNIX". Anyone know what that might have been? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 7 18:17:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:17:14 -0700 Subject: COM90C65? In-Reply-To: <200608071800.00797.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608071522.52198.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608071242450073.105F7E9C@10.0.0.252> <200608071800.00797.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608071617140100.1123D99E@10.0.0.252> On 8/7/2006 at 6:00 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >No, I have that one and the sheet refers to the '65, but another >reference (found here: http://www.gisceu.com/epdf_files/U206.pdf ) says in a table >at the bottom of page 5 that it's an "XT Interface". The '66 _is_ an ARCnet >chip though. Hmmm, before I had my tenth cup of coffee. Here's information on a controller that uses one: http://www.worldvisions.ca/~apenwarr/arcnet/howto/cards.html I'll keep looking, but XT-era chip docs are getting harder to find. Cheers, Chuck From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 7 18:23:51 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:23:51 -0700 Subject: "misload" error on JB In-Reply-To: <200608072313.k77NDGSP000654@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608072313.k77NDGSP000654@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <44D7CB87.6060606@dakotacom.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Problem appears to just have been media not "seated" well >> enough for the picker to grab it. I'm running the picker >> diagnostics now which exercises the load/eject/move >> capabilities of the picker as well as the drives. >> >> If that fares well, I'll just assume something got "disturbed" >> when I was moving the box around... > > Hopefully that is all it is, the more likely culprit on the Jukeboxes I'm > familiar with is the robotics controller. Do you have a "Calibrate All" > type of option? If so I'd recommend running it. Ah, OK. I should probably just run through all of the diagnostics for that "warm and fuzzy"... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 7 18:27:37 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:27:37 -0600 Subject: IDE doesn't suck! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060807105402.03c02150@mail.30below.com> References: <30a25e66f80541c79f3f77b309ee64bf@valleyimplants.com> <30a25e66f80541c79f3f77b309ee64bf@valleyimplants.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060807105402.03c02150@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <44D7CC69.9030103@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > > The IDE interface for my CoCo *Rocks!!!* > Only if you got OS/9.!!! From kth at srv.net Mon Aug 7 18:40:59 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:40:59 -0600 Subject: Need help with LAT > SSH tunnel In-Reply-To: <000101c6ba70$ff942440$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <000101c6ba70$ff942440$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <44D7CF8B.3090405@srv.net> Julian Wolfe wrote: >Does anyone know if there is an easy way to forward a LAT connection to >either SSH or Telnet on a VMS 8.2 machine? I have a PDP-11 running RSTS/E >that has no form of TCP/IP available, only LAT and DECnet, and I want to >make it available via SSH connection through the VMS system. Any help would >be appreciated. > > 1. What I did to get an old VAX/VMS available from the NET (through a firewall) was to forwared SSH to a Linux box, and from there I can telnet (and LAT) to the VAX. (VMS version was too old for SSH to run directly). The Linux box was there already for other purposes. There is a LAT package for Linux. http://linux-decnet.sourceforge.net/index.html http://linux-decnet.sourceforge.net/lat.html but I've heard that it may have problems with RSTS/E. Since I don't have Decnet for RSTS/E, I never tried it, but it works well enough to talk to VMS and DecServers. You could set up a dummy user (conn?), or auto-login based on the origin of the port. Then with some games with either the login scripts, or its shell, you could automtically forward (LAT) from Linux to RSTS/E. 2. Using a VMS instead of Linux as the base system, I'd create a special user (conn?) without a password, and create a captive account with a LOGIN.COM script to 'set host' to the RSTS/E machine. You *may* need to wrap the 'set host' thusly in a COM file to allow user typing to make it through (not sure it's necessary): $ define/supervisor_mode/nolog sys$input sys$command $ SET HOST RSTSE $ deassign/supervisor_mode sys$input From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 7 18:28:44 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:28:44 -0700 Subject: End of PeeCees? Message-ID: <200608071628440913.112E641B@10.0.0.252> On today's BBC "Analysis", there's a little segment on the issue of personal computers being obsolete because of the rise of The Internet. Supposedly, we're going to be using our televisions or mobile phones in place of them. The whole segment hinges on the statement of MS that the desktop PC is dead and that the future is The Internet and we'd all better get used to it. Now, I don't think I"m a Luddite, but there's precious little to see on television that I care to waste my time on (the dogs seem to appreciate the noise, so I leave it on for them when I'm going to be out of the house for an extended period). And I can't for the life of me read the screen on my mobile and have to operate it in "blind" mode. Old eyes, but then, there are a LOT of us. There's nothing worse than someone shoving their camera phone in front one's face saying "look at this" and seeing nothing but a tiny multicolored blur. So, for someone who doesn't watch television and can't see the screen on a mobile, is there any better platform than a desktop PC? I don't know if this is off-topic because MS's announcement is supposedly of Momentous Import and reflects a change in the way we do things. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 7 18:38:57 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 16:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Macs and PCs vs workstations In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Aug 08, 2006 12:10:16 AM Message-ID: <200608072338.k77NcvAS001249@onyx.spiritone.com> Adrian/Witchy wrote: > On 7/8/06 23:11, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > I'm actually threatening to put a large ~250GB IDE drive in my XP1000/667, > > as a backup device. Shouldn't be to hard to create a batch job that backs > > up the drives in the middle of the night and resubmits itself. Though it > > has been quite a while since I did any serious DCL scripting. As the system > > has a built in UW-SCSI, plus I've added U2W-SCSI, and FW-SCSI-Diff, I have > > no desire to try and actually run on IDE! > > I'm sure I won't be alone in offering DCL help for backups :o) If your IDE > drive is the same size or bigger than the drive you're backing up and the > IDE drive is initialised and mounted all you need to do is: > > $backup/image dkcnn: dqcn:[000000]dkcnn.bck/save > > 'course, YMMV depending on how you want to do things - IDE drive as a proper > image copy, differential backups etc. I actually have a fairly slick DCL script that I wrote to work with my Exabyte 8mm Jukebox, but I don't believe that has been used in about 6 years. I'd like to see if I can't enhance it. It uses a configuation file to setup the backup schedules (both full and incremental). The best part is I now have RDB and MySQL on the system so I can add in a proper filehistory database, which was what I was going to work on next. There is also the possibility of a rewrite in Perl (or even Python), to ease integration with RDB or MySQL. My current setup is as follows: System Disk 18GB Scratch Disk 50GB Web Disk 36GB (2 drive Shadowset) User Disk 36GB (2 drive Shadowset) TLZ06 and DLT7000 Tape Drives (might add a L200 DLT Jukebox in place of the standalone DLT drive if I can find room) Right now the only internal drives are the CD-ROM and TLZ-06 so adding an internal IDE drive will be somewhat easy (cabling in the system is a pain). Zane From kth at srv.net Mon Aug 7 18:56:04 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:56:04 -0600 Subject: Macs and PCs vs workstations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D7D314.8070706@srv.net> Adrian Graham wrote: >On 7/8/06 23:11, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > >>I'm actually threatening to put a large ~250GB IDE drive in my XP1000/667, >>as a backup device. Shouldn't be to hard to create a batch job that backs >>up the drives in the middle of the night and resubmits itself. Though it >>has been quite a while since I did any serious DCL scripting. As the system >>has a built in UW-SCSI, plus I've added U2W-SCSI, and FW-SCSI-Diff, I have >>no desire to try and actually run on IDE! >> >> > >I'm sure I won't be alone in offering DCL help for backups :o) If your IDE >drive is the same size or bigger than the drive you're backing up and the >IDE drive is initialised and mounted all you need to do is: > >$backup/image dkcnn: dqcn:[000000]dkcnn.bck/save > >'course, YMMV depending on how you want to do things - IDE drive as a proper >image copy, differential backups etc. > > > I have the resubmit program seperate from the actual backup. Only does 3 backups/week, but easy enough to change. Change the file names/rules as necessary. Backup command files (FULL.COM, DAILY.COM) should be easy enough to write. Looks something like this (stripped out a lot of crap & cleaned up): $ SET VERIFY $ USER_NAME := "BACKUP" $ BACKUP := "DUA0:[BACKUP]" $ ! $ ! Starting time $ START_TIME := "20:00:00.00" $ ! $ DAY = F$CVTIME(,,"WEEKDAY") $ NDAY = F$CVTIME(,,"DAY") $ TOM = F$CVTIME("TOMORROW","ABSOLUTE",) $ TDATE = F$EDIT( F$EXTRACT(0,11,TOM), "TRIM") $ ! $ ! If it's Friday do the Weekend backup $ ! $ IF (DAY .EQS. "Friday") - THEN SUBMIT/USER='USER_NAME'/NOPRINT 'BACKUP':FULL.COM $ ! $ ! It's just a regular weekday backup $ ! $ IF (DAY .EQS. "Monday") .OR. (DAY .EQS. "Wednesday") - THEN SUBMIT/USER='USER_NAME'/NOPRINT 'BACKUP':DAILY.COM $ ! $ ! Resubmit this command file to take care of backup tomorrow $ ! $ SUBMIT/USER='USER_NAME'/NOPRINT/AFTER="''TDATE':''START_TIME'" - 'BACKUP':BACKUPTIME.COM $ SET NOVERIFY $ EXIT From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 7 18:58:01 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 16:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <200608071628440913.112E641B@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 07, 2006 04:28:44 PM Message-ID: <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> > On today's BBC "Analysis", there's a little segment on the issue of > personal computers being obsolete because of the rise of The Internet. > Supposedly, we're going to be using our televisions or mobile phones in > place of them. The whole segment hinges on the statement of MS that the > desktop PC is dead and that the future is The Internet and we'd all better > get used to it. This whole "the Internet is the Platform" is rather amusing when you think about it. It's basically Mainframe thinking. It's also about taking control of peoples data away from them, and transferring ownership of that data to the corporations. Granted you have plenty of people that use computers to play games, surf, do email, and *maybe* a little light word processing or spreadsheet usage. They could care less about thier data or thier privicy. OTOH, you have those of us that are writing software, articles, and books, or creating music and video. You also have people with either very slow, or no internet access. Plus there are the people that just value their privacy. While the first group might sucker into this "Internet is the Platform", how many of the second group will? For certain types of users, it might make sense, but one size does not fit all. Take for example the computers available right now that are targeted at home use. You have handhelds, mini-laptops, laptops, giant-laptops, desktops, mini-systems, and power-user setups, video game consoles and set-top boxes. Each of these is a computer, each has its own "niche". While some can be replaced by others, others can't. For example very few laptops come even close to being able to take the place of a "power-user setup", yet a mini-system, video game console, and set-top box are largely the same system and could largely be replaced by the "Internet is the Platform" idea. Am I making sense, or just rambling, who knows. All I know is that I'm not the least bit interested in the "Internet is the Platform", and I'm beating that there are a lot of other people that feel that way. At the same time I fear the corporations and governments might just force this down our throats. Zane From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 7 19:10:36 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:10:36 -0700 Subject: Mac 840AV networking Message-ID: <44D7D67C.9000105@dakotacom.net> OK, the 840AV has one of those mini-centronics-style connectors on the rear for the network transceiver. I have some "Asante FriendlyNet Thin Adapter"s that will mate with this and work -- for a 10Base2 network! The Asante box has an RJ45 on the rear. The cable that mates to the network connector on the 840AV has that funky mini-centronics on one end and an RJ45 *plug* on the other. This choice of connectors -- and the "Thin Adapter" moniker -- suggests that I could plug the RJ45 *plug* end of this cable into a hub directly? Is this true? Or, just wishful thinking (and an unfortunate choice in connectors on Asantes part)? From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 7 19:14:31 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:14:31 -0700 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <44D7D767.7050003@dakotacom.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: [attribution lost] >> On today's BBC "Analysis", there's a little segment on the issue of >> personal computers being obsolete because of the rise of The Internet. >> Supposedly, we're going to be using our televisions or mobile phones in >> place of them. The whole segment hinges on the statement of MS that the >> desktop PC is dead and that the future is The Internet and we'd all better >> get used to it. > > Am I making sense, or just rambling, who knows. All I know is that I'm not > the least bit interested in the "Internet is the Platform", and I'm beating > that there are a lot of other people that feel that way. At the same time I > fear the corporations and governments might just force this down our > throats. It is the only "surefire" way to ensure the advertisers can get IN YOUR FACE! :-/ Otherwise, you might elect to NOT expose yourself to their nonstop drivel (We hear complaints about how much of the cost of a new vehicle is "wasted" on healthcare and employee benefits... I wonder how much of the cost is spent on ADVERTISING? Likewise, for the myriad other products out there that spend money advertising their crappy products instead of throwing that money into product IMPROVEMENTS!? :< ) From rborsuk at colourfull.com Mon Aug 7 19:39:35 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 20:39:35 -0400 Subject: My Newest (oldest) Data General Computer Message-ID: <1465772C-AD91-42BE-A58C-22A1A8323E90@colourfull.com> Hi, Just added a new (old) Data General Computer to my collection. Thought I would share it with those who are interested. http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/PhotoAlbum4.html Yep, a Nova 2. I acquired this computer with 2 diablo drives, power / controller unit, and cables. Rob ps. Even received 2 cartridges for the drives. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 7 19:43:55 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:43:55 -0700 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200608071743550719.11733872@10.0.0.252> On 8/7/2006 at 4:58 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: >While the first group might sucker into this "Internet is the Platform", >how many of the second group will? I've got to admit that when visiting a local high school and I see the students strolling around with cell phones glued to their heads, I wonder exactly what it is that they're talking about. I suspect that these are the same people that the "new" "It's all about The Internet" will appeal to. Cheers, Chuck From miller.blair at gmail.com Mon Aug 7 20:49:21 2006 From: miller.blair at gmail.com (Blair Miller) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 21:49:21 -0400 Subject: Available: Procom CDT14-T8X-ETP Message-ID: <44D7EDA1.9050506@gmail.com> All, Figured I'd repost this with a bit more information, in case someone missed it, or one of the new members is interested. I've got a Procom CDT14-T8X-ETP networked CD-ROM tower, in pristine working condition, that I've no use for. It has 14 8x SCSI CD-ROM drives that are interfaced through a single twisted pair network card. It measures roughly 15" wide X 20" deep X 17" high and weighs roughly 40-50 pounds. Finally, according to the manual, it'll run under Windows NT or Netware (thus far, I've found no way of getting it running under Linux, or I'd think about using it to host music CD's via a Slim Devices Squeezebox or something similar). Not exactly *classic*, but old enough that it's -- as far as I can tell -- not worth selling on eBay. I thought the case, which is up on casters, would be cool for a project of some sort, but I honestly can't think of anything to do with it. If anyone's interested, they're welcome to it. First come, first serve -- just email me (miller.blair at gmail.com) saying that you want it and when you'll be able to pick it up (I live in Vermontville, MI). Comes with the CD-ROM tower itself, all 14 8X SCSI CD-ROM drives, manual, software, and even the key for the doors. You'll just need to supply two standard power cords. The case has no dents, dings, scratches -- just a couple of very minor scuff marks. If need be, I also might be willing to drop it off... Thanks, Blair From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 7 21:05:17 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 19:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <200608071743550719.11733872@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 07, 2006 05:43:55 PM Message-ID: <200608080205.k7825HHw004407@onyx.spiritone.com> > On 8/7/2006 at 4:58 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >While the first group might sucker into this "Internet is the Platform", > >how many of the second group will? > > I've got to admit that when visiting a local high school and I see the > students strolling around with cell phones glued to their heads, I wonder > exactly what it is that they're talking about. I suspect that these are > the same people that the "new" "It's all about The Internet" will appeal > to. > > Cheers, > Chuck Yep, these are the same kids that are on Myspace, IM, etc. whenever they're online as well (and a lot are likely tied into both on the Cell Phones). Todays youth are being trained to ignore all thoughts of privacy, and those that do think about it are finding they have a false sense of privacy when it comes to sites like Myspace. People really need to remember there is no such thing as a free lunch! The closest thing to one is Open Source. Zane From ohh at drizzle.com Mon Aug 7 21:33:52 2006 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 19:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <200608071628440913.112E641B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: Quoth Chuck Guzis: > On today's BBC "Analysis", there's a little segment on the issue of > personal computers being obsolete because of the rise of The Internet. > Supposedly, we're going to be using our televisions or mobile phones in > place of them. The whole segment hinges on the statement of MS that the > desktop PC is dead and that the future is The Internet and we'd all better > get used to it. Heh. I'm sure M$ and others would love nothing more than to make it so you can store all your personal data on their remote servers for your "access-your-data-from-anywhere" convenience... and pay that storage fee every month, and that account-access fee every month, and buy into that whole concept of "we'll store it for you, and by the way you'll have to buy our specialty tools and processes to access them to their full potential", and having all _my_ data subject to someone _else's_ potential system failures, and let's not even _contemplate_ the privacy issues... Nope. Not buying. I think the _idea_ of being able to access your data remotely is nice, but this _method_ sounds boneheaded. I just hope to whatever Gods there may be that the majority don't buy into this and make it the next unfortunate "standard". ...Am I ranting? Oh, dear, I'm ranting. :) -O.- "...but you can't fool all of the people all of the time." -A. Lincoln "...but if you can fool them long enough to establish it as a new standard, by the time they figure it out they'll be stuck with it." -Edison From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Aug 7 21:41:04 2006 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 22:41:04 -0400 Subject: Mac 840AV networking In-Reply-To: <44D7D67C.9000105@dakotacom.net> References: <44D7D67C.9000105@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0608071941g37b46858y425e783d65135e49@mail.gmail.com> Nope, I'm 99% sure the RJ45 cable is not a regular CAT4/CAT5 style ethernet connector, since I have some of the same Asante adapter dongles with RJ45 jacks on the end of them (IE the AUI->RJ45 connector fits into a box, that has another RJ45 jack on it that's the ethernet interface.) Man I hated thinnet :) On 8/7/06, Don wrote: > > OK, the 840AV has one of those mini-centronics-style > connectors on the rear for the network transceiver. > > I have some "Asante FriendlyNet Thin Adapter"s that will > mate with this and work -- for a 10Base2 network! > > The Asante box has an RJ45 on the rear. The cable that > mates to the network connector on the 840AV has that > funky mini-centronics on one end and an RJ45 *plug* > on the other. > > This choice of connectors -- and the "Thin Adapter" > moniker -- suggests that I could plug the RJ45 *plug* > end of this cable into a hub directly? > > Is this true? Or, just wishful thinking (and an unfortunate > choice in connectors on Asantes part)? > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Aug 7 21:16:47 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 19:16:47 -0700 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200608071916470549.36385BC3@192.168.42.129> Hi, gang, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 07-Aug-06 at 16:58 Zane H. Healy wrote: >> On today's BBC "Analysis", there's a little segment on the issue of >> personal computers being obsolete because of the rise of The Internet. >> Supposedly, we're going to be using our televisions or mobile phones in >> place of them. The whole segment hinges on the statement of MS that the >> desktop PC is dead and that the future is The Internet and we'd all >better >> get used to it. Here we go with the 'One Size Fits All' mentality again. For my part: They can have my PC's, microcontrollers, servers, and my network when they pry them from my rotting carcass. Seriously. >This whole "the Internet is the Platform" is rather amusing when you think >about it. It's basically Mainframe thinking. It's also about taking >control of peoples data away from them, and transferring ownership of that >data to the corporations. Which is one of many reasons I would never buy into it. I believe I can also speak for my wife and several friends along those lines. >OTOH, you have those of us that are writing software, articles, and books, >or creating music and video. You also have people with either very slow, >or no internet access. Plus there are the people that just value their >privacy. > >While the first group might sucker into this "Internet is the Platform", >how many of the second group will? Let me put it this way: Not only 'NO!' but 'FRELL, NO!!!' >For certain types of users, it might make sense, but one size does not fit >all. Take for example the computers available right now that are targeted >at home use. You have handhelds, mini-laptops, laptops, giant-laptops, >desktops, mini-systems, and power-user setups, video game consoles and >set-top boxes... Add to that special-purpose industrial systems and car-mounted PC's. >Am I making sense, or just rambling, who knows. All I know is that I'm not >the least bit interested in the "Internet is the Platform", and I'm beating >that there are a lot of other people that feel that way. At the same time >I fear the corporations and governments might just force this down our >throats. You're making plenty of sense, though the "beating" might get a bit messy (did you mean 'betting?') And "they" are going to have to do a LOT of forcing before I would ever give up my right to run my own servers and domains. As long as my ISP keeps my line up, I'll keep paying them to do so. Period. If, further down the road, it turns out that I will need to buy something more powerful than a DSL pipe to continue being self-hosted, then so be it. I ran a dialup FidoNet BBS for nearly ten years, and I've been self-hosted for my 'net presence nearly as long. I will NOT give it up without a fight! Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Aug 7 22:07:42 2006 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 23:07:42 -0400 Subject: Scouting mission Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0608072007v2e157e7cu4cda87fff0fec086@mail.gmail.com> So I went back to the University of Michigan property disposition after a two year hiatus, and they actually have a few interesting things... A BIG SGI IRIS, I think it was a 3000, but it looked even larger than pictures I've seen of those. A giant Compaq ProLiant, I'd say P3 vintage, with a dozen PCI slots, sitting on top of a huge disk array. The whole thing was about five feet tall. A bunch of Dell and Compaq disk arrays, housing mostly Seagate U160 drives, so maybe 18GB X 8? A Digital StorageWorks tape backup autoloader cabinet. A bunch of IBM tape and CD-ROM drives, of RISCSystem/6000 vintage. A few Sun Ultra 1's and Ultra 60's. A lonely and beaten-up IBM 3151 terminal, probably from a library. The prices were somewhat reasonable for most of this stuff, which was surprising given their method of checking eBay for appropriate pricing. Boxes of early PCI cards, including some nice Yamaha and Ensoniq audio cards, and various off-brand SCSI cards. They had a big shipment of interesting Pro A/V equipment, I picked up a Panasonic world-standard VCR (PAL/Secam/etc...) and a nice Tascam tape deck. They had some Sony Umatic tape stuff as well. Someone was walking out with a pallet of cool stuff, I recognized a few Rane parametric EQ's and a Tascam pro DAT deck. Very tempting were two big, lab-grade ionizing lasers, complete with power supplies/cooling units. Always wanted one of those... Good hunting! From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Aug 7 22:14:28 2006 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 23:14:28 -0400 Subject: College workstations (was: Macs and PCs vs workstations In-Reply-To: <20060807151542.V78045@shell.lmi.net> References: <200608072211.k77MB7OL031280@onyx.spiritone.com> <20060807151542.V78045@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0608072014s23f1b50eneeb3ec159b810916@mail.gmail.com> Our CS lab consisted of a bunch of Sun ELC's and IPC's tied to a first gen SPARCServer. I mostly used them to telnet to the P90 linux box I had set up, which well mopped the floor with the IPCs. Had a much nicer debugger, as well. On 8/7/06, Fred Cisin wrote: > > About ten years ago, at the school, we had a lab full of 386's, that > worked just fine for a learning (non-production) environment. > You don't NEED, nor even WANT, a fast machine for LEARNING sort > algorithms, etc. There were enough that there was hardly ever a wait to > use a machine. > One of our administrators wanted to TRADE ALL of the PCs for 3 or 4 486 > machines. We barely managed to stop him. > From segin2005 at gmail.com Mon Aug 7 22:22:48 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 23:22:48 -0400 Subject: VAXen RULE! (WAS Microkernels) In-Reply-To: References: <44D4D3E8.802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44D80388.8000704@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 1:22 PM -0400 8/5/06, Segin wrote: > >> Al Kossow wrote: >> >>>> Current Macs share much more with PeeCees >>>> than SGI IRISes and Sun SPARCs, so there is most likely a >>>> non-insignificant >>> >>> >>> amount of suboptimal hardware that eats processor cycles >>> >>> Please give concrete examples of this "suboptimal hardware" you >>> speculate >>> about, and give examples of how this is done better on SGI or Sun >>> DESKTOP >>> CLASS Hardware. >>> >> When will the flamewar ever end? Is x86 the magical trolling word >> around here? I'm real sorry, I never knew that mentioning x86 systems >> here would cause such a dicussion. > > > Well a couple of us were genuinely interested in why you like 386's. > This hasn't degenerated into a flamewar yet :^) I never said I was "genuinely interested" in 386's. You guys just assumed that like a bunch of mindless souls in search of substance. Like I said, the oldest box I currently have is a 386. That's all. > >> That said, does anyone happen to know when the "newest" produced VAX >> was made? My best research indicates that HP continued cranking them >> out until mid-2005, but that could be wrong... > > > Are you talking about VAX or OpenVMS? VAX is a hardware platform, last > sale date was prior to 9/11 (IIRC either '99 or 2000). Though I think > the last chips were made prior to that. The last sale date for Alpha is > this year. For OpenVMS Itanium is the way forward. Don't let the > press, and various "experts" fool you, the current Itanium 2 is a very > nice CPU. OpenVMS runs on all three of these CPU families. > > Zane > > I mean VAX mini/microcomputers. As in those that ran 4.3BSD. -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Aug 7 22:21:31 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 23:21:31 -0400 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <200608080205.k7825HHw004407@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608080205.k7825HHw004407@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200608072321.31639.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 07 August 2006 22:05, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > On 8/7/2006 at 4:58 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I've got to admit that when visiting a local high school and I see the > > students strolling around with cell phones glued to their heads, I wonder > > exactly what it is that they're talking about. I suspect that these are > > the same people that the "new" "It's all about The Internet" will appeal > > to. > > > > Cheers, > > Chuck > > Yep, these are the same kids that are on Myspace, IM, etc. whenever they're > online as well (and a lot are likely tied into both on the Cell Phones). Hey! some of us "youth" use IM because it's a lot less annoying than having to use a phone (and data packets are cheaper anyhow). I'm on AIM whenever I'm in front of a computer, because it's about the only way to reliably get a hold of me. Oh, and did I say that I hate phones? On the other hand, I have no problem talking to people in person. I just much rather compose my thoughts in email or chat with someone over some IM network than talk on a phone, in real-time. Also, it's easier to multiplex a few IM conversations and writing email while doing other things at the same time, than it is to do with a phone call (while paying attention to the person on the other end, anyhow). > Todays youth are being trained to ignore all thoughts of privacy, and those > that do think about it are finding they have a false sense of privacy when > it comes to sites like Myspace. While I'm not someone who uses "Myspace," perhaps they have realised that privacy for the sake of privacy just gets in the way of useful social relationships sometimes. > People really need to remember there is no such thing as a free lunch! The > closest thing to one is Open Source. Or, working at a government job... best yet, a government job working on Open Source. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 7 22:25:34 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 20:25:34 -0700 Subject: Mac 840AV networking In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0608071941g37b46858y425e783d65135e49@mail.gmail.com> References: <44D7D67C.9000105@dakotacom.net> <5f7d1b0e0608071941g37b46858y425e783d65135e49@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44D8042E.7090805@dakotacom.net> Jason McBrien wrote: > Nope, I'm 99% sure the RJ45 cable is not a regular CAT4/CAT5 style ethernet > connector, since I have some of the same Asante adapter dongles with RJ45 > jacks on the end of them (IE the AUI->RJ45 connector fits into a box, that > has another RJ45 jack on it that's the ethernet interface.) So you have a similar box for 10BaseT instead of 10Base2? And, your "proof" is that such a box would NOT be necessary if, in fact, the RJ45 from the Mac side was a real 10BaseT interface? > Man I hated thinnet :) Well, if your boxes will only run 10Mb/s, 10Base2 is a *cabling* win if you have a lot of boxes in a small area -- since you can daisy chain them instead of having to make room for a hub/switch *and* N cables ... :-/ I know the machines that I have tethered together with coax don't have quite the same amount of cable-clutter as the other twisted-pair machines... :-/ (sure would be nice to have a small AUI<->802.11g adapter :> ) From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 7 22:28:20 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 20:28:20 -0700 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <200608071916470549.36385BC3@192.168.42.129> References: <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> <200608071916470549.36385BC3@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: At 7:16 PM -0700 8/7/06, Bruce Lane wrote: > >OTOH, you have those of us that are writing software, articles, and books, >>or creating music and video. You also have people with either very slow, >>or no internet access. Plus there are the people that just value their >>privacy. >> >>While the first group might sucker into this "Internet is the Platform", >>how many of the second group will? > > Let me put it this way: Not only 'NO!' but 'FRELL, NO!!!' Agreed. As an author (and yes, I have had something published) there is no way I'm allowing what I'm writing on an "Internet is the Platform" setup. > >Am I making sense, or just rambling, who knows. All I know is that I'm not > >the least bit interested in the "Internet is the Platform", and I'm beating >>that there are a lot of other people that feel that way. At the same time >>I fear the corporations and governments might just force this down our >>throats. > > You're making plenty of sense, though the "beating" might get >a bit messy (did you mean 'betting?') I meant betting, but beating seems appropriate as that is what I fear we'll be getting. Remember we're supposed to be good little zombies lining the coffers of the corporations. > And "they" are going to have to do a LOT of forcing before I >would ever give up my right to run my own servers and domains. As >long as my ISP keeps my line up, I'll keep paying them to do so. >Period. Hope your ISP is being as good about the FCC selling out to the phone companies. Looks like I'll soon have one bill for my ISP and DSL line, and that will be to Aracnet rather than Aracnet for the ISP side and Verizon for the line. > If, further down the road, it turns out that I will need to >buy something more powerful than a DSL pipe to continue being >self-hosted, then so be it. I ran a dialup FidoNet BBS for nearly >ten years, and I've been self-hosted for my 'net presence nearly as >long. I will NOT give it up without a fight! Ditto. I've had my own server on the net for as long as there has been DSL in the area, and I'm paying a lot extra to do this. I just hope I don't have to switch to a business line in the future, as I'm not sure I can afford that. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Aug 7 23:13:46 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 23:13:46 -0500 Subject: Scouting Mission Message-ID: <1fa97953458441aebda652a6e29f3f46@valleyimplants.com> > A BIG SGI IRIS, I think it was a 3000, but it looked even larger than >pictures I've seen of those. Quick check on those: was it beige? The IRIS x000 series were the only beige computers SGI produced. If it was brown it's a 4D. They made them in 3 sizes, I've seen 2 (terminal and deskside) The terminal could sit on your desk. 9 Multibus slots, no disks The deskside is the most common- 20 Multibus slots, 2 5.25" FH HDD positions and 1 5.25" FH removable-media position, along with much dead space. Stands about 3' high. There are rumors of a rackmount designed to use SMD drives, for those who needed big, fast storage. There are a number of people on the list with these, if you're interested grab it. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 7 23:30:08 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 21:30:08 -0700 Subject: Mac keyboards Message-ID: <44D81350.8030606@dakotacom.net> Hi, I have an "Apple Adjustable Keyboard" -- a wacky keyboard that splits in the center ("ergonomic"?) and has an auxillary "function/numeric" keyboard that sits alongside it (sheesh! What a wacky arrangement -- how to use up the most desktop space with the least added functionality! :< ) Needless to say, I am not happy with it. What should I be looking for as an alternative? Thanks! From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 7 16:07:45 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:07:45 -0400 Subject: VAXen RULE! (WAS Microkernels) Message-ID: <0J3N00GU9BYA88M2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VAXen RULE! (WAS Microkernels) > From: Sridhar Ayengar > Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 12:40:34 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Scott Quinn wrote: >> On the positive side, what is the most perfect computer architecture + implementation people have come across here? >> Tell us why, especially if it's something like PERQ or Acorn RISC/pc that is not common outside of a limited geographic area. > >I really dig z/Arch. Extreme CISCy goodness. MMMmmmMMMmmmMMM. > >Extreme pleasure in writing assembler. > >Peace... Sridhar Vax is good but PDP-11 is it's foundation and of the 16bitters it's a very nice cpu. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 7 16:17:46 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:17:46 -0400 Subject: IDE doesn't suck! (was: Macs and PCs vs workstations Message-ID: <0J3N007SCCEYKBK0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: IDE doesn't suck! (was: Macs and PCs vs workstations > From: Roger Merchberger > Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 10:56:09 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words: >>At 4:22 PM -0500 8/5/06, Scott Quinn wrote: >> >>>On the Macs: PIDE is horrible for doing more than one thing at once. Period. Sounds more like a driver problem as in only one task at a time. >> >>Nothing new there, is there any platform where it isn't? > >The IDE interface for my CoCo *Rocks!!!* > >=-= > >Well, you did ask... ;-) > >Laterz, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger > Generally speaking IDE was as good as the hardware hosting it. More often than not, better. At it's worst it was as good as WD1003 and a Fast MFM (quantum D540) Then again, early IDE was exactly that! Z80/10mhz, enhanced CPM(Zrdos) and IDE... Zoom zoom! Allison From pdp11owner at gmail.com Mon Aug 7 17:52:26 2006 From: pdp11owner at gmail.com (b m) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 16:52:26 -0600 Subject: RA81 boards available Message-ID: Hi, I am cleaning out some items from my 'treasures' (as my wife calls them!). I have 3 boards available, without cables, which were originally from an RA81 circa 1987. I have no way of testing them and I am offering them as-is where-is, etc. I want the boards to go to someone who needs the boards to get an RA81 back to a running state, or, to an established member of the list who can be entrusted with the boards for restoring an RA81 (Sellem?) The boards are located in a little town very near Calgary Alberta Canada. I can arrange for shipping if required. Shipping costs will be required in advance. Board 1: HDA PCB4 5015287B 5415288 Board 2: 5015246-00-C1-P2 5415247 Board 3: 5415251 5015250-00-C1-P2 RA81 SERVO CONTROL KA865446004 1/0 A 24MAR87 70-19045-01 8654460004 Board 2 has all socketed chips removed. Boards 1 & 3 look to be complete. If someone has a copy of OpenVMS for an Alpha 300XL, I would be interested. I am in the process of applying for a DECUS membership and then a license PAK. I do not have any media. :-( --barry From derschjo at msu.edu Mon Aug 7 19:14:47 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:14:47 -0700 Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D7D777.4000207@msu.edu> Thanks! I'll give those suggestions a shot sometime in the near future. Josh Tony Duell wrote: >> For taking care of #1, as far as I can tell the drive works except for a >> rubber wheel that's turned to this lovely gooey tar. I don't >> necessarily _need_ to fix the drive, since I have a compatible >> replacement, but I'd like to keep the system as original as possible so >> if it's possible to fix without too much work I'd like to do that. The >> tape drive in question is an Archive 5945S-1. Anyone have any idea how >> feasible it is to find a replacement wheel for this drive? Any good >> places to look that you'd recommend? >> > > I've not had to do that drive yet (although I have a few of them, and > related units, that will need doing soon). But the normal tricks for > rollers that have turned to good are to : > > 1) Use silicone rubber tubing over the original hub. Maybe scrape it down > to the right dfameter if necessary > > 2) Several layers of heatshrink sleeving over the original hub. I've > never had any success with this method, others claim to use it > > 3) Silicone rubber O-rings in grooves machined in the original or a > replacement hub. I use this with great success on HP caculator card > readers (including the desktop models) > > -tony > > > From derschjo at msu.edu Mon Aug 7 19:17:00 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:17:00 -0700 Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... In-Reply-To: <200608071658.MAA02323@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <44D5572F.1010302@msu.edu> <200608071658.MAA02323@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44D7D7FC.7070107@msu.edu> Thanks for the suggestion -- I've already gone through and dd'd up most of the tapes I have but I'll probably go through them again with copytape at some point, just to be extra thorough (I guess I'm pretty paranoid). :) Thanks again, Josh der Mouse wrote: >> 2. Archiving the tapes in a useful format. >> > > >> Regarding #2, I don't have an incredible amount of experience dealing >> with tape, so I'm looking for suggestions for how best to archive >> these tapes without losing any important information. >> > > I'd suggest copytape, or something basically equivalent. (copytape is > a data format for recording tape contents including block boundaries > and tape marks, and a program for converting either way between that > format and real tapes. The version I use can be found in > ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/local/src/copyutape/ for them as > wants.) > > Now, as I understand it, most (all?) QIC drives do not fit the > canonical Unix tape model; they are streams of 512-byte blocks, not > streams of variable-length records. However, since a copytape-format > dump of the tapes would allow you to recreate the tapes, given media > and drive, it can be considered a lossless storage format. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 7 19:36:33 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 20:36:33 -0400 Subject: End of PeeCees? Message-ID: <0J3N0086HLM7PDV0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: End of PeeCees? > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:58:01 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> On today's BBC "Analysis", there's a little segment on the issue of >> personal computers being obsolete because of the rise of The Internet. >> Supposedly, we're going to be using our televisions or mobile phones in >> place of them. The whole segment hinges on the statement of MS that the >> desktop PC is dead and that the future is The Internet and we'd all better >> get used to it. > >This whole "the Internet is the Platform" is rather amusing when you think >about it. It's basically Mainframe thinking. It's also about taking >control of peoples data away from them, and transferring ownership of that >data to the corporations. > >Granted you have plenty of people that use computers to play games, surf, >do email, and *maybe* a little light word processing or spreadsheet usage. >They could care less about thier data or thier privicy. > >OTOH, you have those of us that are writing software, articles, and books, >or creating music and video. You also have people with either very slow, or >no internet access. Plus there are the people that just value their >privacy. > >While the first group might sucker into this "Internet is the Platform", how >many of the second group will? > >For certain types of users, it might make sense, but one size does not fit >all. Take for example the computers available right now that are targeted >at home use. You have handhelds, mini-laptops, laptops, giant-laptops, >desktops, mini-systems, and power-user setups, video game consoles and >set-top boxes. Each of these is a computer, each has its own "niche". >While some can be replaced by others, others can't. For example very few >laptops come even close to being able to take the place of a "power-user >setup", yet a mini-system, video game console, and set-top box are largely >the same system and could largely be replaced by the "Internet is the >Platform" idea. > >Am I making sense, or just rambling, who knows. All I know is that I'm not >the least bit interested in the "Internet is the Platform", and I'm beating >that there are a lot of other people that feel that way. At the same time I >fear the corporations and governments might just force this down our >throats. > > Zane Didn't the promoter named Barnum that suggested that betting on peoples stupidity was a a safe bet. For a lot of "stuff" to me the net is a platfom and free storage. For other things it's a minefield of security issues. I still remember when Geocities got picked up and every ones "content" was deemed the new owners property. Besides even with DSL I don't care If I had 200gb out there free and secure as it's too SLOW compared to the local disks on my p166. Allison From spc at conman.org Tue Aug 8 00:12:42 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 01:12:42 -0400 Subject: Mac keyboards In-Reply-To: <44D81350.8030606@dakotacom.net> References: <44D81350.8030606@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <20060808051242.GD12262@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Don once stated: > Hi, > > I have an "Apple Adjustable Keyboard" -- a wacky keyboard > that splits in the center ("ergonomic"?) and has an > auxillary "function/numeric" keyboard that sits alongside > it (sheesh! What a wacky arrangement -- how to use up the > most desktop space with the least added functionality! :< ) > > Needless to say, I am not happy with it. What should I > be looking for as an alternative? I use an IBM PS/2 keyboard with a PS/2->USB adaptor, with DoubleCommand running to give me access to the "Command" key (that's found on Mac keyboards but not on the IBM PS/2 keyboard). Works great for me. -spc (Can't live without the PS/2 keyboard ... ) From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 8 00:27:34 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 22:27:34 -0700 Subject: Mac keyboards In-Reply-To: <20060808051242.GD12262@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <44D81350.8030606@dakotacom.net> <20060808051242.GD12262@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <44D820C6.8030800@dakotacom.net> Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Don once stated: >> Hi, >> >> I have an "Apple Adjustable Keyboard" -- a wacky keyboard >> that splits in the center ("ergonomic"?) and has an >> auxillary "function/numeric" keyboard that sits alongside >> it (sheesh! What a wacky arrangement -- how to use up the >> most desktop space with the least added functionality! :< ) >> >> Needless to say, I am not happy with it. What should I >> be looking for as an alternative? > > I use an IBM PS/2 keyboard with a PS/2->USB adaptor, with DoubleCommand > running to give me access to the "Command" key (that's found on Mac > keyboards but not on the IBM PS/2 keyboard). Works great for me. 840AV uses ADB. Are you suggesing the same approach but with a "PS/2->ADB" adapter? :-/ From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Aug 8 00:29:40 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 22:29:40 -0700 Subject: Maybe OT? SFTP Backup software Message-ID: <200608072229400943.36E8F53C@192.168.42.129> Perhaps a little off-topic, but... I need to locate a (hopefully inexpensive) backup software package, for use on Windows 2000, that will allow me to back up files over SFTP (FTP over secure shell) to a remote server. Said package needs to do so completely without user intervention (in other words, I don't want to make things any more complicated for my dad's system than I have to). I've found a few, but they all seem to bear at least a three-digit price tag. Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 8 01:05:58 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 23:05:58 -0700 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <200608072321.31639.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200608080205.k7825HHw004407@onyx.spiritone.com> <200608072321.31639.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: At 11:21 PM -0400 8/7/06, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >Hey! some of us "youth" use IM because it's a lot less annoying than having to >use a phone (and data packets are cheaper anyhow). I'm on AIM whenever I'm >in front of a computer, because it's about the only way to reliably get a >hold of me. We use IM heavily at work. I'm of the opinion that it actually decreases productivity. Some people are starting to turn it, email and the phones off as the only way to get work done. There is such a thing as being to available. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spc at conman.org Tue Aug 8 01:09:16 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 02:09:16 -0400 Subject: Mac keyboards In-Reply-To: <44D820C6.8030800@dakotacom.net> References: <44D81350.8030606@dakotacom.net> <20060808051242.GD12262@linus.groomlake.area51> <44D820C6.8030800@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <20060808060916.GE12262@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Don once stated: > Sean Conner wrote: > >It was thus said that the Great Don once stated: > >>Hi, > >> > >>I have an "Apple Adjustable Keyboard" -- a wacky keyboard > >>that splits in the center ("ergonomic"?) and has an > >>auxillary "function/numeric" keyboard that sits alongside > >>it (sheesh! What a wacky arrangement -- how to use up the > >>most desktop space with the least added functionality! :< ) > >> > >>Needless to say, I am not happy with it. What should I > >>be looking for as an alternative? > > > > I use an IBM PS/2 keyboard with a PS/2->USB adaptor, with DoubleCommand > >running to give me access to the "Command" key (that's found on Mac > >keyboards but not on the IBM PS/2 keyboard). Works great for me. > > 840AV uses ADB. Are you suggesing the same approach but > with a "PS/2->ADB" adapter? :-/ Not being intimately familiar with Mac keyboards, you didn't specify which model of Mac you were using. But, if such a thing existed, then yes, I would recommend a PS/2 -> ADB adaptor (as the keyboards made by IBM are the only keyboards worth using in my opinion). -spc (Very fussy about his keyboards) From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 8 01:09:43 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 23:09:43 -0700 Subject: Mac keyboards In-Reply-To: <44D81350.8030606@dakotacom.net> References: <44D81350.8030606@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: At 9:30 PM -0700 8/7/06, Don wrote: >Needless to say, I am not happy with it. What should I >be looking for as an alternative? Get yourself the "Cadillac" of keyboards, the "Apple Extended Keyboard II". It's an ADB keyboard that originally sold for $160. I've been using the one I'm typing this on for just short of 10 years. Only one of the 3 computers I've used it on had ADB, the other two are USB. I'm currently using a G5 2x2. Oh, and since you're using a 68k Mac, you try to make sure you have the ADB Mouse II (teardrop). I view it as one of the two or three best mice ever. Very comfortable. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 8 01:15:16 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 23:15:16 -0700 Subject: Mac 840AV networking In-Reply-To: <44D8042E.7090805@dakotacom.net> References: <44D7D67C.9000105@dakotacom.net> <5f7d1b0e0608071941g37b46858y425e783d65135e49@mail.gmail.com> <44D8042E.7090805@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: At 8:25 PM -0700 8/7/06, Don wrote: >Jason McBrien wrote: >>Nope, I'm 99% sure the RJ45 cable is not a regular CAT4/CAT5 style ethernet >>connector, since I have some of the same Asante adapter dongles with RJ45 >>jacks on the end of them (IE the AUI->RJ45 connector fits into a box, that >>has another RJ45 jack on it that's the ethernet interface.) > >So you have a similar box for 10BaseT instead of 10Base2? >And, your "proof" is that such a box would NOT be necessary >if, in fact, the RJ45 from the Mac side was a real 10BaseT >interface? Isn't that "box" just a transceiver? I know I have both 10Base2 and 10BaseT ones. >as the other twisted-pair machines... :-/ (sure would be nice to >have a small AUI<->802.11g adapter :> ) Do they still make wireless adapters that will plug into a 10/100/1000Base-T network card? I've been wanting one for my PDP-11. I think they're typically marketed as being for something like an X-Box. You'd still need a 10Base-T transceiver (as would I), but it should work. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 8 01:20:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 23:20:54 -0700 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <0J3N0086HLM7PDV0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J3N0086HLM7PDV0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200608072320540424.12A7B7A5@10.0.0.252> On 8/7/2006 at 8:36 PM Allison wrote: >Didn't the promoter named Barnum that suggested that betting on peoples >stupidity was a a safe bet. > >For a lot of "stuff" to me the net is a platfom and free storage. For >other things it's a minefield of security issues. I still remember when >Geocities got picked up and every ones "content" was deemed the new >owners property. Privacy would be my big problem, too. Not to make this a political issue, but I believe that if law enforcement wants your data, the online outfit you're storing your data with is prohibited by law to tell you that they've been snooping. If they want something of mine (although heaven only knows what), I'd prefer that they show up at my door with a warrant. I love my country, but that doesn't mean I always trust the people running it. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 8 01:22:54 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 23:22:54 -0700 Subject: Mac keyboards In-Reply-To: <20060808060916.GE12262@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <44D81350.8030606@dakotacom.net> <20060808051242.GD12262@linus.groomlake.area51> <44D820C6.8030800@dakotacom.net> <20060808060916.GE12262@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: At 2:09 AM -0400 8/8/06, Sean Conner wrote: > Not being intimately familiar with Mac keyboards, you didn't specify which >model of Mac you were using. But, if such a thing existed, then yes, I >would recommend a PS/2 -> ADB adaptor (as the keyboards made by IBM are the >only keyboards worth using in my opinion). > > -spc (Very fussy about his keyboards) You might want to try an old ADB Apple Extended II Keyboard on for size then. I actually prefer it to the old IBM RS/6k keyboard I use at work, though not by a lot. The only other keyboard I have seen that compares to the two is a SGI keyboard I have. I also am very fussy about my keyboards. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 8 01:26:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 23:26:46 -0700 Subject: Mac keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <44D81350.8030606@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608072326460864.12AD185A@10.0.0.252> On 8/7/2006 at 11:09 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: >At 9:30 PM -0700 8/7/06, Don wrote: >Get yourself the "Cadillac" of keyboards, the "Apple Extended >Keyboard II". It's an ADB keyboard that originally sold for $160. >I've been using the one I'm typing this on for just short of 10 >years. Only one of the 3 computers I've used it on had ADB, the >other two are USB. I'm currently using a G5 2x2. I'm sitting in front of an HP keyboard that was pulled new out of its box not six months ago. As I look at it now, the legneds on the "A" and "J" keys are barely legible. Why are keyboards such pieces of junk nowadays? Time to go back to my IBM model M. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 8 01:29:40 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 02:29:40 -0400 Subject: Mac keyboards References: <44D81350.8030606@dakotacom.net> <20060808051242.GD12262@linus.groomlake.area51> <44D820C6.8030800@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <012701c6bab4$07c41b50$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 1:27 AM Subject: Re: Mac keyboards > Sean Conner wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great Don once stated: > >> Hi, > >> > >> I have an "Apple Adjustable Keyboard" -- a wacky keyboard > >> that splits in the center ("ergonomic"?) and has an > >> auxillary "function/numeric" keyboard that sits alongside > >> it (sheesh! What a wacky arrangement -- how to use up the > >> most desktop space with the least added functionality! :< ) > >> > >> Needless to say, I am not happy with it. What should I > >> be looking for as an alternative? > > > > I use an IBM PS/2 keyboard with a PS/2->USB adaptor, with DoubleCommand > > running to give me access to the "Command" key (that's found on Mac > > keyboards but not on the IBM PS/2 keyboard). Works great for me. > > 840AV uses ADB. Are you suggesing the same approach but > with a "PS/2->ADB" adapter? :-/ Apple Extended Keyboard II's are good (solid clicky and liked by most people). http://skylab.org/~chugga/pictures/forsale/kbd3.JPG If you like small keyboards the IIgs style one is compact http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~kazzysvg/newfiles/keyboard1design/gskeyboard1.jpg ADB mice plug into the side of the Mac keyboards. Apple Keyboard II's are mushy pieces of junk (have one), the original Apple extended keyboard is ok also. I also have some Appledesign Keyboards that are ok. http://www.eliteauctions.net/product/appdesign_key_400x300.jpg From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 8 01:33:31 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 02:33:31 -0400 Subject: Mac keyboards References: <44D81350.8030606@dakotacom.net> <200608072326460864.12AD185A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <014001c6bab4$91464920$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 2:26 AM Subject: Re: Mac keyboards > On 8/7/2006 at 11:09 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >At 9:30 PM -0700 8/7/06, Don wrote: > >Get yourself the "Cadillac" of keyboards, the "Apple Extended > >Keyboard II". It's an ADB keyboard that originally sold for $160. > >I've been using the one I'm typing this on for just short of 10 > >years. Only one of the 3 computers I've used it on had ADB, the > >other two are USB. I'm currently using a G5 2x2. > > I'm sitting in front of an HP keyboard that was pulled new out of its box > not six months ago. As I look at it now, the legneds on the "A" and "J" > keys are barely legible. Why are keyboards such pieces of junk nowadays? > Time to go back to my IBM model M. > > Cheers, > Chuck > I like Northgates for PC use, but model M IBM keyboards are probably about the same (been a long time since I used one). From Jason.Armistead at otis.com Tue Aug 8 00:00:46 2006 From: Jason.Armistead at otis.com (Armistead, Jason) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 01:00:46 -0400 Subject: Gooey tape rollers - how widespread is this problem ? Message-ID: Hi I've got a bunch of old equipment that I'm trying to cull the backup tapes for, namely a MicroVAX 2000 with a TK50 tape drive, and a few QIC drives off various PC, Sun and HP systems. The boxes and boxes of tapes need to be culled, and transferring stuff to CD-R / DVD-R, or simply ditching tapes which are redundant is what I'm looking at doing. I've noticed a few recent postings about tape rollers turning to mush if they haven't been used for a while. How widespread is this problem ? Does it affect all brands of tape drives, or are certain tape technologies worse off. I can never recall having any problems with our TK50 drive from the VAX - it was always reliable, but it's been stored for a few years now. As for the QIC drives, they were "inherited" and I've never really used them, so their history is unknown. How old do the tape drives have to be before this problem appears ? It is related purely to age, or does usage play a factor ? TIA Jason From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Aug 8 02:30:33 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 08:30:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mac 840AV networking In-Reply-To: Don "Mac 840AV networking" (Aug 7, 17:10) References: <44D7D67C.9000105@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <10608080830.ZM9675@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Aug 7 2006, 17:10, Don wrote: > The Asante box has an RJ45 on the rear. The cable that > mates to the network connector on the 840AV has that > funky mini-centronics on one end and an RJ45 *plug* > on the other. > > This choice of connectors -- and the "Thin Adapter" > moniker -- suggests that I could plug the RJ45 *plug* > end of this cable into a hub directly? I have a few of those. No, sorry, the RJ45 isn't a 10baseT connection. It's more like an AUI connection, but with a different connector. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Aug 8 02:58:43 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 08:58:43 +0100 Subject: Maybe OT? SFTP Backup software In-Reply-To: <200608072229400943.36E8F53C@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: On 8/8/06 06:29, "Bruce Lane" wrote: > Perhaps a little off-topic, but... > > I need to locate a (hopefully inexpensive) backup software package, for use on > Windows 2000, that will allow me to back up files over SFTP (FTP over secure > shell) to a remote server. Said package needs to do so completely without user > intervention (in other words, I don't want to make things any more complicated > for my dad's system than I have to). > > I've found a few, but they all seem to bear at least a three-digit price tag. I use WinSCP on peecees - http://winscp.net/eng/index.php - it's got a good price tag :o) It uses a pretty familiar twin-pane interface and is essentially drag'n'drop..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Aug 8 07:19:36 2006 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 08:19:36 EDT Subject: Mac keyboards Message-ID: <244.2f9b800.3209db58@aol.com> In a message dated 8/8/2006 12:30:29 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, THX1138 at dakotacom.net writes: I have an "Apple Adjustable Keyboard" -- a wacky keyboard that splits in the center ("ergonomic"?) and has an auxillary "function/numeric" keyboard that sits alongside it (sheesh! What a wacky arrangement -- how to use up the most desktop space with the least added functionality! :< ) Needless to say, I am not happy with it. What should I be looking for as an alternative? --------- Some people actually like that keyboard. I have one myself with the keypad I got for free. There's a bunch of different types of keyboards you can use. I prefer the mac keyboards with the ADP ports on the side of the keyboard. I have some that you can plug the mouse in from underneath the keyboard, but the connection seems to work loose eventually. From robert.stek at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 07:11:14 2006 From: robert.stek at gmail.com (Robert Stek) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 08:11:14 -0400 Subject: tricep? what's tricep? Message-ID: <44d87f64.65a84b4f.27a6.05c9@mx.gmail.com> IIRC, Morrow Designs biggest, baddest S-100 machine (used a switching PS!) could run CP/M but with a special boot ROM (on the backplane with serial I/O I believe) also ran UNIX System V substituting a 68000 CPU board for the usual Z80. That was the Tricep I believe, which came out around 1984. Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 08:01:10 2006 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 09:01:10 -0400 Subject: Scouting Mission In-Reply-To: <1fa97953458441aebda652a6e29f3f46@valleyimplants.com> References: <1fa97953458441aebda652a6e29f3f46@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0608080601x50996cc2o2ea65b6a0f298636@mail.gmail.com> On 8/8/06, Scott Quinn wrote: > > > > Quick check on those: was it beige? The IRIS x000 series were the only > beige computers SGI produced. > If it was brown it's a 4D. I want to say it was white, or at least very light beige. They made them in 3 sizes, I've seen 2 (terminal and deskside) > > The terminal could sit on your desk. 9 Multibus slots, no disks > The deskside is the most common- 20 Multibus slots, 2 5.25" FH HDD > positions and 1 5.25" FH removable-media position, along > with much dead space. Stands about 3' high. The deskside sounds about right, however I want to say it was a 3' cube (it was WIDE) which itsn't exactly what I've seen in pictures I've found on the 'net. There are a number of people on the list with these, if you're interested > grab it. > I've already aquired a couple of Personal IRISes, an Indy and an Indigo2, so I'm all set on the playing-around-with-IRIX front :) From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 08:15:18 2006 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 09:15:18 -0400 Subject: Mac 840AV networking In-Reply-To: <44D8042E.7090805@dakotacom.net> References: <44D7D67C.9000105@dakotacom.net> <5f7d1b0e0608071941g37b46858y425e783d65135e49@mail.gmail.com> <44D8042E.7090805@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0608080615g500d4411q3f4a3c47d53055b2@mail.gmail.com> On 8/7/06, Don wrote: > > > So you have a similar box for 10BaseT instead of 10Base2? > And, your "proof" is that such a box would NOT be necessary > if, in fact, the RJ45 from the Mac side was a real 10BaseT > interface? That, and this: http://pinouts.ru/Net/AAUI_pinout.shtml > Man I hated thinnet :) > > Well, if your boxes will only run 10Mb/s, 10Base2 is a *cabling* > win if you have a lot of boxes in a small area -- since you can > daisy chain them instead of having to make room for a hub/switch > *and* N cables ... :-/ Yep, for a smallish network it isn't bad. Unfortunatly I inherited two labs of about 80 PCs daisy chained together. It seemed like every time a user brushed against a coax cable half the segment would go down, then you'd get to trace out which cable went flaky. Sometimes the cable would go flaky overnight, just for the fun of it. I know the machines that I have tethered > together with coax don't have quite the same amount of cable-clutter > as the other twisted-pair machines... :-/ (sure would be nice to > have a small AUI<->802.11g adapter :> ) > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Aug 8 08:41:34 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 08:41:34 Subject: NS Pacer Re: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608071239080682.105C3155@10.0.0.252> References: <3.0.6.16.20060807145835.1a470018@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200608071700.k77H08ln029566@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200608071700.k77H08ln029566@dewey.classiccmp.org> <3.0.6.16.20060807145835.1a470018@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060808084134.258fd3ca@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:39 PM 8/7/06 -0700, Chuck wrote: >On 8/7/2006 at 2:58 PM Joe R. wrote: > >>FWIW I have a NS Pacer computer here. I've never tried to fire it up. > >And run what? The vast library of PACE applications? Another area where >National was never any good. Hey, we're collectors, It doesn't have to have a practicle use :-) Joe From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 08:26:42 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 09:26:42 -0400 Subject: Scouting Mission In-Reply-To: <1fa97953458441aebda652a6e29f3f46@valleyimplants.com> References: <1fa97953458441aebda652a6e29f3f46@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: > The terminal could sit on your desk. 9 Multibus slots, no disks > The deskside is the most common- 20 Multibus slots, 2 5.25" FH HDD positions and 1 5.25" FH removable-media position, along > with much dead space. Stands about 3' high. > > There are rumors of a rackmount designed to use SMD drives, for those who needed big, fast storage. The big ones are about 5 feet tall, and generally have an Fujitsu Eagle and a Cipher 1/2' tape drive, in addition to the processor box. The racks are fairly standard, except the top has an odd design that makes it look like it is wearing a hat. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 8 10:02:18 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 11:02:18 -0400 Subject: SPARCstation LX troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <9cc941d0ecc94edfb0e501fe838a3fc0@valleyimplants.com> References: <9cc941d0ecc94edfb0e501fe838a3fc0@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <44D8A77A.5080605@neurotica.com> Scott Quinn wrote: >> I have 2 that I picked up the other day. They "appear" to power up (e.g. >> lights, drive seeking, etc). I tried 2 different monitors, but I don't get >> any video. > > I believe that Suns can be set to ignore the graphics console and immediately go to TTY. > Definitely plug in a term and see what happens. There are PROM commands to change back > to graphics. At the "ok" prompt, to use ttya as the console, type this: setenv input-device ttya setenv output-device ttya To change back to the keyboard & framebuffer, type this: setenv input-device keyboard setenv output-device screen -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From kth at srv.net Tue Aug 8 10:21:31 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 09:21:31 -0600 Subject: VAXen RULE! (WAS Microkernels) In-Reply-To: <0J3N00GU9BYA88M2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J3N00GU9BYA88M2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <44D8ABFB.5030800@srv.net> Allison wrote: >>Subject: Re: VAXen RULE! (WAS Microkernels) >> From: Sridhar Ayengar >> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 12:40:34 -0400 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >>Scott Quinn wrote: >> >> >>>On the positive side, what is the most perfect computer architecture + implementation people have come across here? >>>Tell us why, especially if it's something like PERQ or Acorn RISC/pc that is not common outside of a limited geographic area. >>> >>> >>I really dig z/Arch. Extreme CISCy goodness. MMMmmmMMMmmmMMM. >> >>Extreme pleasure in writing assembler. >> >>Peace... Sridhar >> >> > >Vax is good but PDP-11 is it's foundation and of the 16bitters it's a very >nice cpu. > >Allison > > The best processor is going to be different based on the person you are talking to. Everyone has their own idea as to what features are important, and fond old memories of working on an ancient (wasn't then) OS tend to sway their decision. If you go back to one of those old systems, you often think to yourself "did I really put up with all this crap?" If you just want to play around with a lot of different CPU architectures to see what they were like, the 'simh' series of emulators might be a place to start. Most of them are sturdy enough to run a real OS, and they have the ability to work at the instruction level. Includes a simple assembler/ disassembler for each CPU. Lets you play with a lot of hardware before deciding you want to spend actual money on them. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 8 10:07:14 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 08:07:14 -0700 Subject: Mac keyboards In-Reply-To: <012701c6bab4$07c41b50$0b01a8c0@game> References: <44D81350.8030606@dakotacom.net> <20060808051242.GD12262@linus.groomlake.area51> <44D820C6.8030800@dakotacom.net> <012701c6bab4$07c41b50$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: At 2:29 AM -0400 8/8/06, Teo Zenios wrote: >If you like small keyboards the IIgs style one is compact > >http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~kazzysvg/newfiles/keyboard1design/gskeyboard1.jpg I have one of these for my SE/30, very nice. Though I'm not sure where it or the SE/30 are at the moment... Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 8 10:11:07 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 11:11:07 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608061906.47886.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44D62961.2080105@dakotacom.net> <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> <200608061906.47886.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44D8A98B.10600@neurotica.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > The z80 added stuff I've never personally found > all that useful otherwise, and have never used the index registers (yet) or > the alternate set, all that much. I like the index registers; I use them with some frequency. The alternate register set, though...ugh. It'd be much more useful if the designers had provided a way to determine which set is currently in use! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 8 10:15:59 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 11:15:59 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608061416.45256.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200608060840230926.0A5B37B7@10.0.0.252> <44D61B9A.7010302@neurotica.com> <200608061416.45256.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <44D8AAAF.4000604@neurotica.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Sunday 06 August 2006 12:40, Dave McGuire wrote: >> When I read this paragraph, I wanted to stand up and cheer. You >> and I think very, very much alike in this area. If I didn't have to >> squander my time working like a dog just to keep the electric service >> turned on, I'd be building systems just like that. > > Dude, just turn off *1* of your Crays for a week... Funny guy. ;) But no, I'm not running any of them now. Money is REALLY tight for me these days...my current employment only eats a few hours per week of my time, but the pay isn't great. Combine that with some unexpected expenses involving an uninsured rental truck and a low bridge, and...no power for the Crays. I'd actually consider selling one or two of them at this point, if someone were to make a reasonable offer. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 8 10:31:34 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 11:31:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SPARCstation LX troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <44D8A77A.5080605@neurotica.com> References: <9cc941d0ecc94edfb0e501fe838a3fc0@valleyimplants.com> <44D8A77A.5080605@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608081532.LAA07021@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I believe that Suns can be set to ignore the graphics console [...] > At the "ok" prompt, to use ttya as the console, type this: > setenv input-device ttya > setenv output-device ttya > To change back to the keyboard & framebuffer, type this: > setenv input-device keyboard > setenv output-device screen Yes...but there's an easier way. Leave input-device set to keyboard and output-device set to screen, and simply unplug the keyboard. When it can't find the keyboard, it switches over to ttya for input and output on its own. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Aug 8 10:38:18 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 11:38:18 -0400 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: References: <200608080205.k7825HHw004407@onyx.spiritone.com> <200608072321.31639.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200608081138.18551.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 08 August 2006 02:05, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:21 PM -0400 8/7/06, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >Hey! some of us "youth" use IM because it's a lot less annoying than > > having to use a phone (and data packets are cheaper anyhow). I'm > > on AIM whenever I'm in front of a computer, because it's about the > > only way to reliably get a hold of me. > > We use IM heavily at work. I'm of the opinion that it actually > decreases productivity. Some people are starting to turn it, email > and the phones off as the only way to get work done. There is such a > thing as being to available. I don't know, I find IM and email fairly easy to ignore, whether or not I'm doing it on purpose. I find that working from 12p to 8p ( or later), or in our machine room at work, cuts down on the distractions a lot too. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From trag at io.com Tue Aug 8 10:56:41 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 10:56:41 -0500 Subject: Mac keyboards In-Reply-To: <200608080921.k789LGth051053@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608080921.k789LGth051053@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 21:30:08 -0700 >From: Don >I have an "Apple Adjustable Keyboard" -- a wacky keyboard >that splits in the center ("ergonomic"?) and has an >auxillary "function/numeric" keyboard that sits alongside >it (sheesh! What a wacky arrangement -- how to use up the >most desktop space with the least added functionality! :< ) > >Needless to say, I am not happy with it. What should I >be looking for as an alternative? If you're using it with your Q840AV, then you need an ADB keyboard. Many folks believe that the best were the Apple Extended Keyboard II. These are generally easy to find at thrift shops/Goodwill and such for $10 - $15. They originally retailed for well over $100. I imagine that there are (or were) thousands or tens of thousands of them sitting at recyclers waiting to be crushed--and they're just full of keyswitches. If you're really lucky, you might find a NeXT Model N8001 keyboard. Some NeXT machines used an ADB keyboard. The N8001 has a compact size (no F keys) and the Command key is a long bar below the spacebar, which I find very convenient--though it sort of ruins me for other keyboards. And a completely superficial feature that pleases me disproportionately, it's a nice pure black, except for the green 'Power' button. Unfortunately, it's a membrane keyboard, so you may not like the feel. For a nice clackety clack feel, stick with the Extended Keyboard II. BTW, if you need a bunch of Mac specific help you may wish to check out the Vintage Macs email group sponsored by Lowendmac.com. I'd point you at the comp.sys.mac.* hierarchy, but the newsgroups just aren't what they used to be, sigh. I really like newsreader clients *a lot* better than email clients or web based fora. Sigh again. Trolls recently drove the signal portion of the S/N ratio off of the rec.aquaria hierarchy and onto Google groups and reading fora on a web browser is painful. It only shows me 30 thread titles at a time. I have to load a new page rather than simply scrolling to see the rest of the thread titles. Everything opens in the same window, instead of a separate window for each message that I open. Newswatcher (or maybe TIN) was the peak of forum/newsgroup browsing ease. Jeff Walther From trag at io.com Tue Aug 8 10:41:32 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 10:41:32 -0500 Subject: Mac 840AV networking In-Reply-To: <200608080450.k784oZfF047066@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608080450.k784oZfF047066@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 22:41:04 -0400 >From: "Jason McBrien" >On 8/7/06, Don wrote: >> >> OK, the 840AV has one of those mini-centronics-style >> connectors on the rear for the network transceiver. >> >> I have some "Asante FriendlyNet Thin Adapter"s that will >> mate with this and work -- for a 10Base2 network! >> >> The Asante box has an RJ45 on the rear. The cable that >> mates to the network connector on the 840AV has that >> funky mini-centronics on one end and an RJ45 *plug* >> on the other. >> >> This choice of connectors -- and the "Thin Adapter" >> moniker -- suggests that I could plug the RJ45 *plug* >> end of this cable into a hub directly? >> >> Is this true? Or, just wishful thinking (and an unfortunate >> choice in connectors on Asantes part)? >Nope, I'm 99% sure the RJ45 cable is not a regular CAT4/CAT5 style ethernet >connector, since I have some of the same Asante adapter dongles with RJ45 >jacks on the end of them (IE the AUI->RJ45 connector fits into a box, that >has another RJ45 jack on it that's the ethernet interface.) You must have an older Asante transceiver. The more recent ones have the cable integrated into the transceiver box, so that there is no seperate dongle. For those having trouble following, Apple used an odd connector (the mini-centronics referred to above) for their AUI port and called it an AAUI port. It makes a certain amount of sense as the AAUI is a more compact connector which works nicely for laptops and saves space on the computer backplane. Also, Apple is (was) already using DB15 for their video port. Various companies made transceivers for the AAUI port, including Asante. Asante's older transceivers have an AAUI to RJ45 plug dongle. The RJ45 end of the dongle plugs into the transceiver box which may be for thicknet, thinnet or UTP (they also made some combo boxes with UTP and thinnet in the same box). Anyway, you'll (Don will) want to find an actual UTP transceiver. They're cheap, but not as thick on the ground as they once were. Apple gave up on the AAUI with the first PCI Macs (well, they started including UTP built-in next to the AAUI, but who used the AAUI after that?) so the only folks still using the AAUI transceivers are running NuBus machines, and there aren't that many of us left. If you have a local Goodwill Computer Works store, you may find an assortment of AAUI transceivers in a bin for $3 - $5 unless they've lost their minds for Ebay pricing. I saw several HP 600N ethernet cards (successor to the MIO cards for LaserJet printers) at the San Antonio Computer Works store priced over $50. They say they're pricing them using Ebay pricing. However, when I bought one on Ebay, I found that they generally ended for about $20 (which was still more than I was willing to pay). There were some sellers using fixed price sales at ~$50, but there's no saying anyone ever bought from them. For some of their pricing, Goodwill has recently lost their institutional mind. Jeff Walther From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Tue Aug 8 10:58:52 2006 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 10:58:52 -0500 Subject: Looking for se-scsi for my hp-3000 In-Reply-To: <69da5c69e05f4838a1055a28f299d781@valleyimplants.com> References: <69da5c69e05f4838a1055a28f299d781@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: I'm looking for inexpensive se scsi devices that I can attach to my hp-3000/922 system. In particular, I am looking for disc and dds drives. Any ideas? thanks! -Bob -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 8 11:23:39 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 09:23:39 -0700 Subject: Cleaning microfiche? Message-ID: Does anyone have any idea on how to remove oil from Microfiche? The History Resource Center has a stack of fiche with oil all over it that needs to be cleaned up. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 8 11:25:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 09:25:19 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D8A98B.10600@neurotica.com> References: <44D62961.2080105@dakotacom.net> <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> <200608061906.47886.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D8A98B.10600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608080925190741.14D1144B@10.0.0.252> On 8/8/2006 at 11:11 AM Dave McGuire wrote: > I like the index registers; I use them with some frequency. The >alternate register set, though...ugh. It'd be much more useful if the >designers had provided a way to determine which set is currently in use! When I (and I'm sure, others did likewise) wrote Z80 code, the alternate set was used for the highest-priority interrupt, usually the interval timer (I refuse to call it a clock, but could also be a byte-interrupt data acquisition routine. There was no possibility of confusion that way--and one made the best use of the reduced latency. BTW, if you look at early Intel documentation, the B,C D and E registers are referred to as "Index registers". A strange twist of the term, isn't it? Other than the relative jumps, the enhanced instruction set of the Z80 rarely brought much speed increase by itself. For example, moving a block of bytes using LDIR isn't really much faster than using a MOV A,M/STAX D type of loop. On the other hand, the INI and OTI instructions was very welcome when one had to deal with a peripheral whose I/O port addresses weren't known in advance. The alternative on the 8080/8085 was hot-patching code--an impossiblity if one was executing out of ROM--one had to copy the applicable code into RAM and execute it there. Not a great feature if the I/O ports in question controlled the bank-switching hardware and you were trying to do a RAM diagnostic. I've wondered about something for years, however. Did anyone ever make use of the fact that an INI or OTI instruction placed the contents of both the B and C registers on the Z80 address bus? It would seem to be a simple way of expanding the I/O space to 64K ports. Cheers, Chuck . From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 8 11:38:45 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 12:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cleaning microfiche? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608081640.MAA08007@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Does anyone have any idea on how to remove oil from Microfiche? Ummm...soapy water? Seems like the obvious first thing to try to me; all the 'fiche I've seen has struck me as water-resistant, like most photographic-film-type materials. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 8 11:44:14 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 10:44:14 -0600 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608080925190741.14D1144B@10.0.0.252> References: <44D62961.2080105@dakotacom.net> <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> <200608061906.47886.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D8A98B.10600@neurotica.com> <200608080925190741.14D1144B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D8BF5E.6000409@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've wondered about something for years, however. Did anyone ever make use > of the fact that an INI or OTI instruction placed the contents of both the > B and C registers on the Z80 address bus? It would seem to be a simple way > of expanding the I/O space to 64K ports. Yes, the 8088 did. > Cheers, > Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 8 11:58:50 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 12:58:50 -0400 Subject: SPARCstation LX troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <200608081532.LAA07021@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <9cc941d0ecc94edfb0e501fe838a3fc0@valleyimplants.com> <44D8A77A.5080605@neurotica.com> <200608081532.LAA07021@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44D8C2CA.2020902@neurotica.com> der Mouse wrote: >>> I believe that Suns can be set to ignore the graphics console [...] >> At the "ok" prompt, to use ttya as the console, type this: >> setenv input-device ttya >> setenv output-device ttya >> To change back to the keyboard & framebuffer, type this: >> setenv input-device keyboard >> setenv output-device screen > > Yes...but there's an easier way. > > Leave input-device set to keyboard and output-device set to screen, and > simply unplug the keyboard. When it can't find the keyboard, it > switches over to ttya for input and output on its own. Yes this is definitely true, however it isn't always reliable. I've run into many situations in which SPARCstation-2 and -5 systems think there's a keyboard attached when there in fact is not, and thus become inaccessible on the console. This is much more important in some situations than in others, though...I've used far more SS2/SS5 systems on shelves in racks in a datacenter than I have on desktops. In that environment, it pays to "lock" things where you want them rather than depend on autodetection. I follow the same philosophy when it comes to autonegotiation of Ethernet parameters such as speed and duplex. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 8 12:00:44 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 10:00:44 -0700 Subject: Cleaning microfiche? Message-ID: > The History Resource Center has a stack of fiche with oil all over it Be EXTREMELY careful when cleaning them. Oil will soften the emulsion, and fiche are VERY easily scratched. From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Tue Aug 8 12:09:00 2006 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 19:09:00 +0200 Subject: Cleaning microfiche? In-Reply-To: <200608081640.MAA08007@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200608081640.MAA08007@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20060808170900.GA10853@lug-owl.de> On Tue, 2006-08-08 12:38:45 -0400, der Mouse wrote: > > Does anyone have any idea on how to remove oil from Microfiche? > > Ummm...soapy water? Seems like the obvious first thing to try to me; > all the 'fiche I've seen has struck me as water-resistant, like most > photographic-film-type materials. I'd say that depends on the type of oil as well as on the type of film. While you can put all photographic stuff into water, some of them don't like being touched or even mildly scrubbed. There are even some films around that have a gel layer unprotected on their surface. If you touch it or grip it hard, you'll smash it... Also when you use soap with organic materials (and gel and celluloid are those), keep in mind that it's a caustic solution (pH > 7) which may corrode the material in the long term if not properly watered out. So if it's worth the work, I'd say first take a sheet of simple paper and soak it with some of the oil. Then check if it's solveable in these liquids: * water+soap. Needs long watering afterwards to get it all off the film. * isopropanol. Check carefully, may solve color and/or the film. * petroleum ether (as you may use to clean some clothing or to fill some specific kinds of lighters.) This needs a really _good_ test if you use it on the fiche because it may be a solvent for either the film and/or the colour! Then check with some cut off piece of film if it resists the treatment chemically-wise. Of course, it would help to know the exact kind of oil and from what the films were made... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf the second : f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 8 12:31:22 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 10:31:22 -0700 Subject: Cleaning microfiche? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608081031220444.150D8B77@10.0.0.252> On 8/8/2006 at 9:23 AM Zane H. Healy wrote: >Does anyone have any idea on how to remove oil from Microfiche? The >History Resource Center has a stack of fiche with oil all over it >that needs to be cleaned up. With all due respect to the list members who have offered suggestions, I think your best bet is to take this one up with the professional archivists. They deal with this kind of problem regularly. Here's one list: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/archives.html Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 8 12:40:18 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 10:40:18 -0700 Subject: Gooey tape rollers - how widespread is this problem ? Message-ID: > How widespread is this problem ? > How old do the tape drives have to be before this problem appears ? The drive rollers on QIC drives are the most troublesome. Most of the DC300 drives I have are bad. All of the Apple Tape Backup 40's I've ever run into are bad. Most HP DC100 drives are bad. Same for all of the pre-QIC DC300 drives used in Tektronix 405x's, DEI drives in Onyx systems, TI drives, etc. etc. Pretty much all of the drives from before 1985 are bad. No one was thinking about trying to use these things 20+ years after they were shipped. 1/4" cartridge drives are common enough that there are still maybe one in ten that have good rollers. Wangtek is more difficult to repair than Archive, since Archive kept the same roller design for 10+ years, so you can still find later drives that can be cannibalized to fix old ones. It should be possible to use rubber tubing of the right diameter and gasket cement to fix the HP drives. Brad Parker gave me a 1 foot piece of rubber tubing that is the right diameter for TU58 rollers. TK50s have problems with the tapes going sticky. Because of the way the carts are built, I've not found a way to safely dehydrate the tape binder. I have hundreds of DC300 carts that I'm trying to go through that all exhibit some degree of stickiness. Because of how thin this tape is, I'm a bit nervous to use the same dehydration oven I've built for processing 1/2" tape http://www.bitsavers.org/tools/oven From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 8 13:03:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 11:03:40 -0700 Subject: Gooey tape rollers - how widespread is this problem ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608081103400840.152B1F41@10.0.0.252> On 8/8/2006 at 10:40 AM Al Kossow wrote: >It should be possible to use rubber tubing of the right diameter and gasket >cement to fix the HP drives. Brad Parker gave me a 1 foot piece of rubber >tubing that is the right diameter for TU58 rollers. This problem is becoming epidemic on many older audio cassette decks and reel-to-reel recorders. Fortunately, there are some folks out there who can do a very nice job at rebuilding them. I'd use rubber tubing if my use was casual, but for serious stuff, I'd go with a rebuilt roller. I understand that the tendency of a roller to gooify has a lot to do with the air quaility of the environment. A unit stored in Los Angeles or Mexico City with a high ambient ozone level is likely to go bad much more quickly than one stored in rural North Dakota. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 8 14:11:31 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 19:11:31 +0000 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <200608071628440913.112E641B@10.0.0.252> References: <200608071628440913.112E641B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D8E1E3.5050706@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On today's BBC "Analysis", there's a little segment on the issue of > personal computers being obsolete because of the rise of The Internet. > Supposedly, we're going to be using our televisions or mobile phones in > place of them. The whole segment hinges on the statement of MS that the > desktop PC is dead and that the future is The Internet and we'd all better > get used to it. What I don't get is that even if a standard TV was of sufficient resolution to support computer apps (AFAIK it's not, even with the high definition stuff that's coming out), surely watching TV is typically a social activity whilst using a computer tends to be a private one. Who the hell wants to sit in the lounge using the TV to surf and read email, with other household members peering over their shoulder? Sure, a TV and a computer has a display (heck, can't even just say 'CRT' any more), but that's about as far as the similarity goes. Ahh well, fingers crossed MS will invest heavily in it, nobody will buy it, and they'll go bankrupt ;) (more likely, MS will invest heavily in it, everyone will buy it and because MS says it's good, and then everyone will be pissed off but it'll be too late by then...) I still can't get my head around anyone wanting a (low quality) camera on their phone. Internet on the TV - you must be joking! > So, for someone who doesn't watch television and can't see the screen on a > mobile, is there any better platform than a desktop PC? SGI or Sun workstation [1] (assuming you mean 'PC' in the modern sense) :-) [1] Although 'workstation' these days means a piece of wood that you put your workstation on ;) > I don't know if this is off-topic because MS's announcement is supposedly > of Momentous Import and reflects a change in the way we do things. Remember the hype over thin clients? :-) (well, the second time around - X terminals actually did that job pretty well, but the thin client nonsense of the late 90's was bollocks) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 8 14:14:38 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 19:14:38 +0000 Subject: Gooey tape rollers - how widespread is this problem ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D8E29E.8080704@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > 1/4" cartridge drives are common enough that there are still maybe one in > ten that have good rollers. Depends where you are, I suspect. Out of an admittedly small sample of perhaps 20 or so, 'only' half have been bad. Around here, the failure rate isn't significant;y higher than other common failures on those sorts of drives. -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From mail at g-lenerz.de Tue Aug 8 13:35:57 2006 From: mail at g-lenerz.de (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 20:35:57 +0200 Subject: Scouting mission In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0608072007v2e157e7cu4cda87fff0fec086@mail.gmail.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0608072007v2e157e7cu4cda87fff0fec086@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <58827636.20060808203557@g-lenerz.de> Hello Jason, Tuesday, August 8, 2006, 5:07:42 AM, you wrote: > A BIG SGI IRIS, I think it was a 3000, but it looked even larger than > pictures I've seen of those. do you mean 3000 as in "Origin 3000" (big black things) or 3000 as in "IRIS 3000" (20y old beige hardware). If it's the latter... someone should grab it as these are quite rare as it seems. Speaking of colors and sizes: http://www.g-lenerz.de/tmp/IMG_1282.JPG shows a deskside IRIS 3000 underneath a 19" monitor and beside other SGI desksides. The terminal style IRIS must have been more or less same height and same depth, but it isn't as wide as I think it has less space for boards. I have never seen the rack, but I have also seen it mentioned in the Old IRIS FAQ. -- Best regards, Gerhard mailto:mail at g-lenerz.de Old SGI Stuff http://sgistuff.g-lenerz.de/ From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Aug 8 14:08:12 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 12:08:12 -0700 Subject: Cleaning microfiche? In-Reply-To: <200608081640.MAA08007@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200608081640.MAA08007@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44D8E11C.50405@msm.umr.edu> der Mouse wrote: >>Does anyone have any idea on how to remove oil from Microfiche? >> >> I would scan them as is if possible, then attempt restoration, and use a throw away transparency blank on both sides when placing them in a scaznner. I have an Epson professional that scans fiche just fine. I would not think that any treatment would be good to apply before taking off information. Jim From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 8 14:12:03 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 15:12:03 -0400 Subject: Truth (was: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608081512.03577.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 07 August 2006 05:57 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Sunday 06 August 2006 07:43 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Get yourself a good book on fluidics. IIRC, a fluidic computer was > > > supposed to replace electronics in rugged environment situations. > > > > Isn't that how an automatic transmission is supposed to work? Although > > they > > YEs. I have several workshop manuals that cover the Borg-Warner 35 > transmission (this was the common automatic transmission used on UK cars > in the 1970s). It really is a clever design. The hydraulic pump, driven > by the engine, is not just used to provide the pressure to operate the > clutches and brake bands, said pressure is also used to move valves > against spring pressure. The faster the engine turns, the more pressure > you get from the pump, and at a certain point the valbe moves far enough > to select some other function. > > The better manuals explain exactly what happens for each gear shift... > > > apparently have electronics in the newer ones... > > Alas yes. My father has just got a new car with electronics everywhere > > :-(. We have four vehicles here, all with problems of one sort or another that are currently sitting idle waiting for the funds to fix them. One car was on the road until yesterday when it was shut off and refused to restart, and when I looked it over (some miles away from here unfortunately) it appeared to be getting fuel but no spark. And thanks to the electronics that's as far as I could go with it. > There's a control unit for the (automatic) gearbox. According to the > workshop manual, there are 6 solenoid valves inside the gearbox, and also > a manual slide valve coupled to the selector lever. Alas it doesn't > explain what the latter does (if it fails you change the whole valve > block), Here I've heard that portion referred to as "valve body". > it doesn't explain what each of the solenoids does (it does give > the dC resistances and the pins on the conector that each solenoid is > linked to so you can find a defective solenoid) > > Oh well. I don't suppose I'll ever have to get amongst this, but it would > be interesting to know what's going on. I have a van sitting out back which has a real problem in that regard, you put it in gear and nothing whatsoever happens as far as any motion is concerned. And it's new enough to have one of those electronic transmissions which I believe got seriously overheated at some point. I'm sure that the fluid that I checked is not supposed to be as black as motor oil turns out to be at times. And either getting that one fixed or even getting one from a junkyard is looking to be a very expensive proposition, unfortunately... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 14:29:14 2006 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 15:29:14 -0400 Subject: Scouting mission In-Reply-To: <58827636.20060808203557@g-lenerz.de> References: <5f7d1b0e0608072007v2e157e7cu4cda87fff0fec086@mail.gmail.com> <58827636.20060808203557@g-lenerz.de> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0608081229t41ba977cv278b298af814a604@mail.gmail.com> On 8/8/06, Gerhard Lenerz wrote: > > > do you mean 3000 as in "Origin 3000" (big black things) or 3000 as in > "IRIS > 3000" (20y old beige hardware). If it's the latter... someone should > grab it as these are quite rare as it seems. I'm 100% sure it wasn't an Origin or anything newer. It was a big white/beige box. I'm positive it said IRIS on it, but I can't recall the model number. I'll go back on Monday and see what it is, if it's still there, and I'm sure it will be. I want to say they wanted $200 for it, or somewhere around there, which is probably more than I'm willing to pay for it. From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 8 15:08:24 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:08:24 -0400 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200608081608.24548.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 07 August 2006 07:58 pm, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > On today's BBC "Analysis", there's a little segment on the issue of > > personal computers being obsolete because of the rise of The Internet. > > Supposedly, we're going to be using our televisions or mobile phones in > > place of them. The whole segment hinges on the statement of MS that the > > desktop PC is dead and that the future is The Internet and we'd all > > better get used to it. > > This whole "the Internet is the Platform" is rather amusing when you think > about it. It's basically Mainframe thinking. It's also about taking > control of peoples data away from them, and transferring ownership of that > data to the corporations. Yah, that's something that billyboy has been trying to do for ages now. In addition to changing the way things are done, it also creates a never-ending revenue stream for "the providers" as well. We've already got a serious disparity going on now between the traditional "content providers" and those who can deal with the paradigm shift, and this is still on the "older" side of things. And probably, in the long run, not going to be as successful as they hope, even with those folks having legislation and such on their side. > Granted you have plenty of people that use computers to play games, surf, > do email, and *maybe* a little light word processing or spreadsheet usage. > They could care less about thier data or thier privicy. > > OTOH, you have those of us that are writing software, articles, and books, > or creating music and video. You also have people with either very slow, > or no internet access. Plus there are the people that just value their > privacy. Yes indeed. > While the first group might sucker into this "Internet is the Platform", > how many of the second group will? Not likely very many, and that group is getting bigger all the time. > For certain types of users, it might make sense, but one size does not fit > all. Take for example the computers available right now that are targeted > at home use. You have handhelds, mini-laptops, laptops, giant-laptops, > desktops, mini-systems, and power-user setups, video game consoles and > set-top boxes. Each of these is a computer, each has its own "niche". > While some can be replaced by others, others can't. For example very few > laptops come even close to being able to take the place of a "power-user > setup", yet a mini-system, video game console, and set-top box are largely > the same system and could largely be replaced by the "Internet is the > Platform" idea. Giant laptops? First I've heard of those. I woulnd't mind something that had most of a "real" keyboard attached instead of those miniatureized abbreviated ones they all seem to favor. The trend (that I've managed to observe, and I surely don't claim to be on top of this stuff) seems to be to keep runtime at an absurdly low number while continuing to add more features, more hardware, and do other things to suck up any gains that might happen in terms of improvements in battery technology or elsewhere. Side note: If there's something out there that can be had either very cheap or for free and that will run linux decently and that I can run in an automotive environment for mapping and gps uses, I'd like to hear about it offlist... > Am I making sense, or just rambling, who knows. Makes perfect sense to me, and I suspect to many others on this list as well. > All I know is that I'm not the least bit interested in the "Internet is the > Platform", Nor am I. > and I'm beating that there are a lot of other people that feel that way. Not likely folks in here, anyway. > At the same time I fear the corporations and governments might just force > this down our throats. They'll likely do what they can manage to do to give them whatever advantage they can in that sort of thing, because doing it that way really does seem to suit _their_ interests better, but I don't think that in the long run it's going to do them a whole lot of good, ultimately. I hope. I suppose it's remotely possible that things might end up getting really repressive instead, which some folks seem to think is what's coming. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 8 15:12:38 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:12:38 -0400 Subject: Available: Procom CDT14-T8X-ETP In-Reply-To: <44D7EDA1.9050506@gmail.com> References: <44D7EDA1.9050506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608081612.38179.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 07 August 2006 09:49 pm, Blair Miller wrote: > If need be, I also might be willing to drop it off... I guess you're not headed this way any time soon, eh? :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Aug 8 15:17:49 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:17:49 -0400 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <200608071916470549.36385BC3@192.168.42.129> References: <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060808160749.03bff698@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Bruce Lane may have mentioned these words: > I concur wholeheartedly! > For my part: They can have my PC's, microcontrollers, servers, > and my network when they pry them from my rotting carcass. Seriously. Yup. Preachin' to the choir here... ;-) > Let me put it this way: Not only 'NO!' but 'FRELL, NO!!!' And if we're pulling John Crichton quotes: "Bill Gates can't guarantee Windows; how you gonna guarantee my safety?" And no, I won't let M$, Google or anyone else store my data. Even if I have to go back to my Tandy CoCo3 to being my main machine! > And "they" are going to have to do a LOT of forcing before I > would ever give up my right to run my own servers and domains. As long as > my ISP keeps my line up, I'll keep paying them to do so. Period. > > If, further down the road, it turns out that I will need to buy > something more powerful than a DSL pipe to continue being self-hosted, > then so be it. We're on the same wavelength yet again.... and I was thinking just before I read this: > I ran a dialup FidoNet BBS for nearly ten years I haven't, but I'd certainly start one to get the (or at least *a*) 'net back to geek-only status... dammit, if ya don't wanna learn the difference between a hard drive & a modem, you shouldn't be telecommunicating. [[ In the car world: dammit, if ya don't wanna learn the difference between a carburetor and a transmission, you shouldn't be rebuilding engines! ]] > I will NOT give it up without a fight! Neither will I. I'm not normally one for conspiracy theories, but maybe M$ & it's ilk _are_ the "New World Order???" Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 8 16:29:25 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 21:29:25 +0000 Subject: Numonics graphics tablet protocol? In-Reply-To: <20060807213223.GA4352@lug-owl.de> References: <44D7BCB0.1020607@yahoo.co.uk> <20060807213223.GA4352@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <44D90235.7070105@yahoo.co.uk> Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Mon, 2006-08-07 22:20:32 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: >> I managed to guess DIP switch settings and serial line settings to a point >> that I can get useful ASCII data out of the tablet (coordinates and button >> info) - but if I could interpret the packed binary stream hopefully it'd >> make the tablet seem a lot more responsive... > > Usually, these packets are quite easy to decipher. That proved to be the case - I've managed to hack together a bit of code that can pick the packet format apart and read coordinate/button information. It seems to be sending about 160 packets per second - anyone know how well that compares to the speed of a typical mouse? Aren't some mice (at least) essentially 3 bytes per packet at 1200 bps, in other words (very roughly) 50 packets per second? If so then I should be able to easily match typical mouse performance. Resolution of the tablet is roughly 8500 x 6000 points, which should be good enough for most purposes. cheers Jules -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From segin2005 at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 15:33:55 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:33:55 -0400 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060808160749.03bff698@mail.30below.com> References: <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060808160749.03bff698@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <44D8F533.6020708@gmail.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Bruce Lane may have mentioned these words: > >> > > > I concur wholeheartedly! I agree as well. > >> For my part: They can have my PC's, microcontrollers, servers, >> and my network when they pry them from my rotting carcass. Seriously. > > > Yup. Preachin' to the choir here... ;-) I got some claymore mines setup outside that only detonate when they see Microsoft employees. By the way, I need a cardboard box to hide in while I wait for some M$ employees to get close... then kill them! > >> Let me put it this way: Not only 'NO!' but 'FRELL, NO!!!' > > > And if we're pulling John Crichton quotes: "Bill Gates can't guarantee > Windows; how you gonna guarantee my safety?" Check my headers. I don't use Windows. We need a website descerning all the horrible truth about Windows, in extravagant detail. > > And no, I won't let M$, Google or anyone else store my data. Even if I > have to go back to my Tandy CoCo3 to being my main machine! Google can store my pr0n. That's it. I don't mind that they'll probably use their hands on things which are parts and not computer parts, but damnit, I need more space for legitimate use. > >> And "they" are going to have to do a LOT of forcing before I >> would ever give up my right to run my own servers and domains. As long >> as my ISP keeps my line up, I'll keep paying them to do so. Period. >> >> If, further down the road, it turns out that I will need to >> buy something more powerful than a DSL pipe to continue being >> self-hosted, then so be it. > > > We're on the same wavelength yet again.... and I was thinking just > before I read this: > >> I ran a dialup FidoNet BBS for nearly ten years > I wish there was still some BBSes left in my area... probably is, but I can't find them. > > I haven't, but I'd certainly start one to get the (or at least *a*) 'net > back to geek-only status... dammit, if ya don't wanna learn the > difference between a hard drive & a modem, you shouldn't be > telecommunicating. [[ In the car world: dammit, if ya don't wanna learn > the difference between a carburetor and a transmission, you shouldn't be > rebuilding engines! ]] Cars are much akin to computers, I could start quoting similarties for days on end. By the time I got done, I'd probably have mere seconds before our expanding sun roasted my ass alive 5 billion years down the road. > >> I will NOT give it up without a fight! > > > Neither will I. > > I'm not normally one for conspiracy theories, but maybe M$ & it's ilk > _are_ the "New World Order???" > > Laterz, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan > SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... > zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" > > -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 8 15:29:08 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 13:29:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <200608072320540424.12A7B7A5@10.0.0.252> References: <0J3N0086HLM7PDV0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200608072320540424.12A7B7A5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060808131055.G47012@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Aug 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Privacy would be my big problem, too. Not to make this a political issue, > but I believe that if law enforcement wants your data, the online outfit > you're storing your data with is prohibited by law to tell you that they've > been snooping. But, according to Mike Godwin, there is nothing in that law (incompetent legislation?) that prohibits them telling you that they have NOT been snooping. In response to a query from you (login script?), they COULD select between two answers: "Nobody has been snooping." "Sorry, can't answer that." There was an FBI memo that complained about lack of cooperation on that law from librarians, saying "we are being kicked around by 'radical militant librarians'". Check out the ALA (American Library Association) response: http://www.ala.org/ala/oif/basics/basicrelatedlinks/radicalbutton.htm > If they want something of mine (although heaven only knows > what), I'd prefer that they show up at my door with a warrant. Back on topic!: Ask Steve Jackson about that! During Operation Sundevil (~thousand machines seized, NO arrests), the Secret Service encountered discussion of "cyberdecks", which would amplify your brainwaves to facilitate cracking computers! They destroyed most of the assets of Steve Jackson Games before they realized that "Gurps Cyberpunk" is a sci-fi fantasy game. THAT, and the ACLU's admission that they were clueless about high tech, lead to the founding of the EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation) > I love my country, but that doesn't mean I always trust the people > ruining it. This is getting a little too close to politics. From segin2005 at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 15:35:55 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:35:55 -0400 Subject: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D8F5AB.3090601@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>> >>>There are, unfortunaely, very few books that >>>actually explain how the CPU >>>works. Most introductory hardware books explain >>>things like the AND and >>>OR gats and flip-flops (don't worry if these terms >>>mean nothing to you, >>>they're just the basic building blocks of computer >>>circuits), and then >>>tell you the CPU exists. It's almost as if the CPU >>>runs on some kind of >>>magic. >>> CPUs run on magic smoke. When something electrical happens that causes the CPU case to break, you can witness this magic smoke escape and the CPU sumallarly stops working. -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Aug 8 15:35:29 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 15:35:29 -0500 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <200608071628440913.112E641B@10.0.0.252> References: <200608071628440913.112E641B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D8F591.2010408@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On today's BBC "Analysis", there's a little segment on the issue of > personal computers being obsolete because of the rise of The Internet. > Supposedly, we're going to be using our televisions or mobile phones in > place of them. The whole segment hinges on the statement of MS that the > desktop PC is dead and that the future is The Internet and we'd all better > get used to it. I can't play FPS games on my mobile phone or do my 3D rendering on The Internet. In 20 years, sure. But for now, I'll stick with my desktop, thanks. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 8 15:31:26 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 16:31:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Numonics graphics tablet protocol? In-Reply-To: <44D90235.7070105@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44D7BCB0.1020607@yahoo.co.uk> <20060807213223.GA4352@lug-owl.de> <44D90235.7070105@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200608082039.QAA09155@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > It seems to be sending about 160 packets per second - anyone know how > well that compares to the speed of a typical mouse? Well, depending on whose "typical" you use. I would say 160 packets/sec should be plenty. Sun mice are normally 1200 baud (ie, 120 data bytes per sec) and are either three or five bytes per sample, depending on which protocol the mouse in question speaks - hence, 40 or 24 samples/sec max, depending on the protocol. Some Sun mice can be fairly trivially jiggered to run at 9600 baud instead of 1200 baud; with matching software hackery, you can get a *much* more responsive mouse (at the price of more CPU time spent handling it). I've done this with one of my mice and it produces a very much snappier feel to interactive mouse use (max 320 or 192 samples/sec depending on protocol - I haven't checked which protocol that mouse uses). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From segin2005 at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 15:45:02 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:45:02 -0400 Subject: Mac keyboards In-Reply-To: <44D81350.8030606@dakotacom.net> References: <44D81350.8030606@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44D8F7CE.9080207@gmail.com> Don wrote: > Hi, > > I have an "Apple Adjustable Keyboard" -- a wacky keyboard > that splits in the center ("ergonomic"?) and has an > auxillary "function/numeric" keyboard that sits alongside > it (sheesh! What a wacky arrangement -- how to use up the > most desktop space with the least added functionality! :< ) > > Needless to say, I am not happy with it. What should I > be looking for as an alternative? > > Thanks! > For the poor price of shipping, you can have a slightly damaged ADB Extended II keyboard. It's damage is isolated to missing keycaps. BTW, it's best for you use use UPS and have them pich it up from my location, I honestly have no time with school and all to deliver it to a pickup centre (not to mention it's too damned far to walk -- and no, I cannot get transportation.) -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 15:49:06 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 16:49:06 -0400 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <44D8F591.2010408@oldskool.org> References: <200608071628440913.112E641B@10.0.0.252> <44D8F591.2010408@oldskool.org> Message-ID: Whine. Whine. Whine. Whine. Whine. Whine. Whine. Whine. Whine. Whine. Whine. Whine. Whine. Whine. Whine. It is getting fucking boring, folks. I have scratchy records that sound more interesting when they skip. -- Will From alexeyt at freeshell.org Tue Aug 8 15:49:18 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 20:49:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: token ring fiber transciever Message-ID: I've got an ODS 836 DB-9 to fiber token ring transciever. I don't know if it works since I've only got one, no power supply for it, and no fiber. It takes a 12V DC power supply, 2 female pin sockets side by side in an ~5mm round male insulator all inside a ~8mm round recess, apparently held in by friction alone (I have never seen this kind of connector elsewhere). It's in a 5" x 2" x .75" possibly watertight machined steel housing (there's a rubber gasket between the 2 halves). If anyone wants it, it's free to a good home. I'm in College Park, MD 20740. Alexey From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 8 15:50:24 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:50:24 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D8A98B.10600@neurotica.com> References: <200608061906.47886.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D8A98B.10600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608081650.24238.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 08 August 2006 11:11 am, Dave McGuire wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > The z80 added stuff I've never personally found > > all that useful otherwise, and have never used the index registers (yet) > > or the alternate set, all that much. > > I like the index registers; I use them with some frequency. What sort of stuff do you do with them? > The alternate register set, though...ugh. It'd be much more useful if the > designers had provided a way to determine which set is currently in use! Agreed! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu Tue Aug 8 11:52:12 2006 From: hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu (hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 12:52:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: for trade: IBM 5028 Teletype Message-ID: For trade: IBM 5028 Operator Station from System/7 http://ees2cy.engr.ccny.cuny.edu/wwwa/web/hardware/ibm5028a.jpg http://ees2cy.engr.ccny.cuny.edu/wwwa/web/hardware/ibm5028b.jpg As you can see the machine is not pretty. Fortunately the cracked part of the case is not lost. (It fell in.) I bought a ribbon, powered it up and typed on it a little bit and at least that part of it works. I would like to trade this for something pre-1980 made by Tektronix. -kurt From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 8 12:19:16 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:19:16 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) Message-ID: <0J3O00LLBW14EB56@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 09:25:19 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 8/8/2006 at 11:11 AM Dave McGuire wrote: > >> I like the index registers; I use them with some frequency. The >>alternate register set, though...ugh. It'd be much more useful if the >>designers had provided a way to determine which set is currently in use! Index regs are nice, alternate registers...more pain than gain. > >I've wondered about something for years, however. Did anyone ever make use >of the fact that an INI or OTI instruction placed the contents of both the >B and C registers on the Z80 address bus? It would seem to be a simple way >of expanding the I/O space to 64K ports. Yes, but why I'll never know. Even that case they actually never used more 100 or so port addresses. I did use it myself to put z80 on XT ISA (no 8088 at all) but that was to fool the 10bit device IO addresses. It was for hardware savings rather than more addresses. Generally the problem is to write a zero to every possible port of a z80 (outir) will take over .3sec at 4mhz. Every time I hear "I want to have all 64k ports" I ask what in the world requires 512kbits of slow IO! Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 8 12:34:57 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:34:57 -0400 Subject: VAXen RULE! (WAS Microkernels) Message-ID: <0J3O00JYQWR9MN07@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VAXen RULE! (WAS Microkernels) > From: Kevin Handy > Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 09:21:31 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: > >>>Subject: Re: VAXen RULE! (WAS Microkernels) >>> From: Sridhar Ayengar >>> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 12:40:34 -0400 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> >>>Scott Quinn wrote: >>> >>> >>>>On the positive side, what is the most perfect computer architecture + implementation people have come across here? >>>>Tell us why, especially if it's something like PERQ or Acorn RISC/pc that is not common outside of a limited geographic area. >>>> >>>> >>>I really dig z/Arch. Extreme CISCy goodness. MMMmmmMMMmmmMMM. >>> >>>Extreme pleasure in writing assembler. >>> >>>Peace... Sridhar >>> >>> >> >>Vax is good but PDP-11 is it's foundation and of the 16bitters it's a very >>nice cpu. >> >>Allison >> >> >The best processor is going to be different based on the person >you are talking to. Everyone has their own idea as to what >features are important, and fond old memories of working on >an ancient (wasn't then) OS tend to sway their decision. If you >go back to one of those old systems, you often think to yourself >"did I really put up with all this crap?" Yes! Often looking back it was the tools rather than the CPU that were "crap". >If you just want to play around with a lot of different CPU >architectures to see what they were like, the 'simh' series of >emulators might be a place to start. Most of them are sturdy >enough to run a real OS, and they have the ability to work >at the instruction level. Includes a simple assembler/ >disassembler for each CPU. > >Lets you play with a lot of hardware before deciding you want >to spend actual money on them. Having the opportunity to play with everything DEC from PDP-8 through Alpha and having working PDP-8F, PDP11 (11/03, 11/23, 1173) and MicroVAXen of all sorts a sim is unsatisfying. Going from PDP-8 and PDP-10 to the 8008 was real culture shock (what instruction set?). Having done the whole 8080, 8085, z80, 808x thing makes me appreciate the word orthogonal. The comprehensive list of micros worked with even includes those never discussed here (those nasty little 4bitters). and yes I do like the VAX. From the CISIC view I really like the PDP-11 as it's simple but all there. From a minimalist view the PDP-8 is about as reduced as one can get though the 1802 is pretty inspired in that area.. I still smile when someone says My cpu is better than yours. After all it just might be for something. ;) Allison From segin2005 at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 16:07:22 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 17:07:22 -0400 Subject: PERQ POSSIBLY AVAILABLE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D8FD0A.8010706@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>I found a guy local that has a PERQ system for sale. Not much interest in > > > Where is 'local'[1]? This is an international list with members in many > countries!. And even if I assume it's in the States, I am told that's a > very big country. > You can say that again -- The United States is rather large, in fact, it's land size totals 9,631,418 km? (3,718,711 sq mi), and boasts a popuation of just under 300 million persons. > >>it for me but thought one of you guys might be into it. He wants $200. > > > If it's a complete and repairable (not necessarily working) machine, then > I think that's a fair price. > > > [1] Reminds me of a 'definition' i heard years ago. If a service manual > says that a special tool is available 'locally' then it's either a > misprint for 'luckily' or the name of an obscure village in Wales :-) HAHAHAHAHA. PWNED. > > -tony > -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 8 16:08:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 14:08:31 -0700 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <20060808131055.G47012@shell.lmi.net> References: <0J3N0086HLM7PDV0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200608072320540424.12A7B7A5@10.0.0.252> <20060808131055.G47012@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200608081408310873.15D45AD7@10.0.0.252> On 8/8/2006 at 1:29 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >This is getting a little too close to politics. Yes, I apologize and shall endeavor to restrain myself. To get this back on track, the BBC narrator talked about the "clicking 5150 and its single diskette drive and 16K of memory". Okay, I've seen 16K 5150s sold, but not with a floppy drive as a standard configuration. Were any 16K one-floppy systems sold as a standard (not bootleg) configuration? If so, what did people expect to do with them? Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 8 16:13:04 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 17:13:04 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608081650.24238.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608061906.47886.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D8A98B.10600@neurotica.com> <200608081650.24238.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44D8FE60.5020705@neurotica.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> The z80 added stuff I've never personally found >>> all that useful otherwise, and have never used the index registers (yet) >>> or the alternate set, all that much. >> I like the index registers; I use them with some frequency. > > What sort of stuff do you do with them? I use them for dealing with arrays of data, like ADC samples. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 8 17:17:32 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 22:17:32 +0000 Subject: PERQ POSSIBLY AVAILABLE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D90D7C.9030303@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> it for me but thought one of you guys might be into it. He wants $200. > > If it's a complete and repairable (not necessarily working) machine, then > I think that's a fair price. That probably depends on which country's dollars you're working with :-) -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 8 17:27:06 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 22:27:06 +0000 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <200608081408310873.15D45AD7@10.0.0.252> References: <0J3N0086HLM7PDV0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200608072320540424.12A7B7A5@10.0.0.252> <20060808131055.G47012@shell.lmi.net> <200608081408310873.15D45AD7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D90FBA.6040405@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/8/2006 at 1:29 PM Fred Cisin wrote: > >> This is getting a little too close to politics. > > Yes, I apologize and shall endeavor to restrain myself. > > To get this back on track, the BBC narrator talked about the "clicking 5150 > and its single diskette drive and 16K of memory". That's interesting - the BBC were just asking if we had a 5150 that they could borrow. They didn't say why they specifically wanted a 5150 rather than a far more easily-obtainable 5160, though; I can't imagine any TV company needing such a level of detail that one wouldn't do above the other - particularly as to Joe Public 'original PC' tends to mean 'XT'. I can only assume they need to focus on the cassette port for some reason. Curious. > Okay, I've seen 16K > 5150s sold, but not with a floppy drive as a standard configuration. Were > any 16K one-floppy systems sold as a standard (not bootleg) configuration? Do you mean that all the 5150's sold with floppy drives were 64KB variants? (That's what I have - but I have no idea what was typical) cheers Jules From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Aug 8 16:30:11 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 17:30:11 -0400 Subject: IDE doesn't suck! In-Reply-To: <44D7CC69.9030103@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060807105402.03c02150@mail.30below.com> <30a25e66f80541c79f3f77b309ee64bf@valleyimplants.com> <30a25e66f80541c79f3f77b309ee64bf@valleyimplants.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060807105402.03c02150@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060808121615.05620398@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that woodelf may have mentioned these words: >Roger Merchberger wrote: >>The IDE interface for my CoCo *Rocks!!!* >Only if you got OS/9.!!! {MODE="nitpick"} That's OS-9. IBM used the slash in OS/2, and IIRC there was no separator in MacOS's poorly named OS9, which I tend to refer to MacOS9 so there's less confusion. {/MODE} Oh, and you're wrong. ;-) If you have a compact flash and/or hard drive bigger than 82Meg, you can have 255 virtual floppies for RS-DOS, and an OS-9 partition above that. [[ I keep my (slowly growing) collection of RS-DOS kids games on drives 10-19. ;-) ]] So, a 256Meg Compact Flash will get you 255 fast floppies and over 170 Meg usable space for OS-9 for pretty durned cheap. Altho the CF slot *isn't* hot-swappable... jeepers, ya can't have everything, eh? ;-) HDB-DOS FAQ: http://www.frontiernet.net/~mmarlette/Cloud-9/Support/HDB-DOS%20FAQ.html HDB-DOS product direct page: http://www.frontiernet.net/~mmarlette/Cloud-9/Software/HDB-DOS.html Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 8 16:42:05 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 14:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <200608081408310873.15D45AD7@10.0.0.252> References: <0J3N0086HLM7PDV0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200608072320540424.12A7B7A5@10.0.0.252> <20060808131055.G47012@shell.lmi.net> <200608081408310873.15D45AD7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060808142543.L48186@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 8 Aug 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > To get this back on track, the BBC narrator talked about the "clicking 5150 > and its single diskette drive and 16K of memory". Okay, I've seen 16K > 5150s sold, but not with a floppy drive as a standard configuration. Were > any 16K one-floppy systems sold as a standard (not bootleg) configuration? > If so, what did people expect to do with them? DOS 1.00 WILL work with 16K! There were patches available for 1.00 to use the second side of the drives as additional drive letters. IBM, and its retailers (including Computerland and Sears Business Centers) preferred to sell complete machines. BUT, they would sell individual components. My first 5150, I purchased a 16K machine, plus a CGA card (I had CCTV composite monitors for TRS-80s and Apples), plus a Disk controller. I took it home, opened it, put in the CGA, and fired it up to play with it for a few minutes. Then I added RAM (from one of my TRS80s), fired it up again. Then I put in the FDC, and a TM100 (also from TRS80). It took me 15 minutes to figure out the drive select jumpers (I hadn't expected B:!) To get past 64K, I put in a "Boulder Creek" RAM card (with ECC!) It had a black power supply, until I filled the expansion slots, and put in 4 1/2 height drives. For 8" drives, I used first a "Vista", then a "Maynard" FDC. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 8 16:47:49 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 14:47:49 -0700 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <44D90FBA.6040405@yahoo.co.uk> References: <0J3N0086HLM7PDV0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200608072320540424.12A7B7A5@10.0.0.252> <20060808131055.G47012@shell.lmi.net> <200608081408310873.15D45AD7@10.0.0.252> <44D90FBA.6040405@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200608081447490491.15F853D2@10.0.0.252> On 8/8/2006 at 10:27 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >Do you mean that all the 5150's sold with floppy drives were 64KB >variants? >(That's what I have - but I have no idea what was typical) IIRC, you could get a "bare" 5150 with 16K if you were lucky, but the IBM diskette-equipped ones all had 64K AFAIK. BTW, here's a link to the BBC WS programme: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/programmes/analysis.shtml Strange that the program doesn't even mention the BBC PC. Maybe the Beeb doesn't want to be reminded. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 8 16:49:00 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 17:49:00 -0400 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608080925190741.14D1144B@10.0.0.252> References: <44D8A98B.10600@neurotica.com> <200608080925190741.14D1144B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608081749.00842.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 08 August 2006 12:25 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: <...> > Other than the relative jumps, the enhanced instruction set of the Z80 > rarely brought much speed increase by itself. For example, moving a block > of bytes using LDIR isn't really much faster than using a MOV A,M/STAX D > type of loop. On the other hand, the INI and OTI instructions was very > welcome when one had to deal with a peripheral whose I/O port addresses > weren't known in advance. Yes. Most of that "extra" stuff I never used. > The alternative on the 8080/8085 was hot-patching code--an impossiblity if > one was executing out of ROM--one had to copy the applicable code into RAM > and execute it there. Not a great feature if the I/O ports in question > controlled the bank-switching hardware and you were trying to do a RAM > diagnostic. That would seem to make it a bit awkward. > I've wondered about something for years, however. Did anyone ever make use > of the fact that an INI or OTI instruction placed the contents of both the > B and C registers on the Z80 address bus? It would seem to be a simple way > of expanding the I/O space to 64K ports. I didn't know they did that. And asserted the usual I/O control lines? Hm... OTOH, I never even came close with any of the ideas I was toying with to filling up the i/o address space, and then there's always memory-mapping stuff. Anything I'm doing on that platform isn't going to be that upset over a few K less ram to work with. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 8 16:59:10 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 17:59:10 -0400 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060808160749.03bff698@mail.30below.com> References: <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060808160749.03bff698@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200608081759.10143.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 08 August 2006 04:17 pm, Roger Merchberger wrote: > We're on the same wavelength yet again.... and I was thinking just before I > read this: > > I ran a dialup FidoNet BBS for nearly ten years > > I haven't, but I'd certainly start one to get the (or at least *a*) 'net > back to geek-only status... dammit, if ya don't wanna learn the difference > between a hard drive & a modem, you shouldn't be telecommunicating. [[ In > the car world: dammit, if ya don't wanna learn the difference between a > carburetor and a transmission, you shouldn't be rebuilding engines! ]] I did, up until last October, but the callers were few and far between towards the end. And dialup connecting would sure cost more than I can afford. > > I will NOT give it up without a fight! > > Neither will I. > > I'm not normally one for conspiracy theories, but maybe M$ & it's ilk _are_ > the "New World Order???" BigGov + BigCorp == BigOrg == Borg? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 8 17:01:37 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 18:01:37 -0400 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <44D8F533.6020708@gmail.com> References: <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060808160749.03bff698@mail.30below.com> <44D8F533.6020708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608081801.37171.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 08 August 2006 04:33 pm, Segin wrote: > We need a website descerning all the horrible truth about Windows, in > extravagant detail. Try microsuck.com. The tamer version of their name... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 8 17:05:28 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 15:05:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <200608081759.10143.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060808160749.03bff698@mail.30below.com> <200608081759.10143.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20060808150501.F48186@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 8 Aug 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > BigGov + BigCorp == BigOrg == Borg? billg? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 8 17:12:06 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 15:12:06 -0700 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <20060808142543.L48186@shell.lmi.net> References: <0J3N0086HLM7PDV0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200608072320540424.12A7B7A5@10.0.0.252> <20060808131055.G47012@shell.lmi.net> <200608081408310873.15D45AD7@10.0.0.252> <20060808142543.L48186@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200608081512060589.160E8F54@10.0.0.252> On 8/8/2006 at 2:42 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >IBM, and its retailers (including Computerland and Sears Business Centers) >preferred to sell complete machines. >BUT, they would sell individual components. Maybe so, but if you wanted a 5150 when it was first introduced (me), you bought what was offered. And all Confuserland was offering was the 5150 with 64K populated-cum-disk drive. The IBM Sales office on Arques offered to get one for me "in 3 or 4 months". I did have my choice of video card (extra--I took the monochrome), skipped the monitor (rigged up an amber screen Taiwanese import that could be goosed to go to 18Khz). I added a 96 tpi Teac as my second drive. Later, I acquired the 8" Shugart 4MB hard drive and a WD1001 controller and wired up my own interface card and drivers for PC-DOS. I went to 256K with the Purple Computing "daughterboard" mod. I got rid of the thing when the Taiwanese clones came out--just duplicated the 5150 ROMs into 2764's and used those instead of the Far East BIOS. 8 slots instead of 5 was very nice. I guess I wasn't interested in the minimum RAM--I paid $99 for the miserable IBM Assembler (quality software by Microsoft) and needed enough memory to run it. It wasn't long until I "acquired" a copy of Lattice C (I still have it). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 8 17:17:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 15:17:00 -0700 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <200608081759.10143.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060808160749.03bff698@mail.30below.com> <200608081759.10143.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608081517000757.16130C5C@10.0.0.252> On 8/8/2006 at 5:59 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >I did, up until last October, but the callers were few and far between >towards the end. And dialup connecting would sure cost more than I can >afford. I think I left off with Auntie, but had lots of other BBS hosting software in the meantime. I was surprised the other day when I dug a hard drive out of the pile and put it on a machine to see NT 4.0 boot and the BBS software come right up. Still have the BBS distros for much of the stuff if anyone's interested. Cheers, Chuck From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 8 17:24:54 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 15:24:54 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D8A98B.10600@neurotica.com> References: <44D62961.2080105@dakotacom.net> <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> <200608061906.47886.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D8A98B.10600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44D90F36.8010805@dakotacom.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> The z80 added stuff I've never personally found all that useful >> otherwise, and have never used the index registers (yet) or the >> alternate set, all that much. > > I like the index registers; I use them with some frequency. The IX and IY are great if you are used to writing code where you deal with lots of struct's or diddle with stack frames. For most folks tinkering, they never figure out the value of them :-( > alternate register set, though...ugh. It'd be much more useful if the > designers had provided a way to determine which set is currently in use! Alternate registers are useful for interrupt handlers -- *if* you ensure that they can't be nested. You can cheat and use AF in one IRQ and the other pairs (EXX) in another IRQ (of course, assuming you only need AF in the one and don't need A or F in the other! :> ) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 8 17:28:32 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 23:28:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Truth (was: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <200608081512.03577.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Aug 8, 6 03:12:03 pm Message-ID: > > > apparently have electronics in the newer ones... > > > > Alas yes. My father has just got a new car with electronics everywhere > > > > :-(. > > We have four vehicles here, all with problems of one sort or another that are > currently sitting idle waiting for the funds to fix them. One car was on the > road until yesterday when it was shut off and refused to restart, and when I > looked it over (some miles away from here unfortunately) it appeared to be > getting fuel but no spark. And thanks to the electronics that's as far as I > could go with it. Ouch!. Is it fuel-injected? If so, often the same sensors (and control unit, at least in part) are used to trigger both the injectors and the ignition coils (most modern engines don't have an HT distributor, they either have a coil per spark plug, or a coil for every pair of plugs with a wasted spark on a plug in a cylinder that's at the top of the exhaust stroke, if you see what I mean). Do you have any docs at all? The workshop manual shold at least give pinouts of the control modules, from which you can deduce the signals, etc. > > > There's a control unit for the (automatic) gearbox. According to the > > workshop manual, there are 6 solenoid valves inside the gearbox, and also > > a manual slide valve coupled to the selector lever. Alas it doesn't > > explain what the latter does (if it fails you change the whole valve > > block), > > Here I've heard that portion referred to as "valve body". Yep, different manufacturers used different terms. > > > it doesn't explain what each of the solenoids does (it does give > > the dC resistances and the pins on the conector that each solenoid is > > linked to so you can find a defective solenoid) > > > > Oh well. I don't suppose I'll ever have to get amongst this, but it would > > be interesting to know what's going on. > > I have a van sitting out back which has a real problem in that regard, you > put it in gear and nothing whatsoever happens as far as any motion is > concerned. And it's new enough to have one of those electronic transmissions > which I believe got seriously overheated at some point. I'm sure that the > fluid that I checked is not supposed to be as black as motor oil turns out to > be at times. And either getting that one fixed or even getting one from a Ouch!. My guess is that you have a major mechancial problem with the transmission (burnt clutch plates?), and that the electronics might well be fine. At least the manual for our car does document taking the mechancial side of the transmission apart, right down to clutch plates and thrust washers, etc. I don't fancy doing it, but I would if necessary. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 8 16:59:12 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 22:59:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mac 840AV networking In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0608071941g37b46858y425e783d65135e49@mail.gmail.com> from "Jason McBrien" at Aug 7, 6 10:41:04 pm Message-ID: > > Nope, I'm 99% sure the RJ45 cable is not a regular CAT4/CAT5 style ethernet > connector, since I have some of the same Asante adapter dongles with RJ45 > jacks on the end of them (IE the AUI->RJ45 connector fits into a box, that > has another RJ45 jack on it that's the ethernet interface.) AFAIK the signals on the 'mini centronics' connector on the Mac are much the same as the 'real' AUI interface, with the exception that there's a 5V power line, not 12V. In which case you can't link it directly to a 10 base T hub. you need a trasnceriver. > > Man I hated thinnet :) Why? I much prefer it to 10 base T, which has a bub I need to be able to repair. At least with thinnet, all I have to fix are the transceivers (and some of those are built from discrete trasnsitors and ECL chips (!)). -tony From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 8 17:35:22 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 15:35:22 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608080925190741.14D1144B@10.0.0.252> References: <44D62961.2080105@dakotacom.net> <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> <200608061906.47886.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D8A98B.10600@neurotica.com> <200608080925190741.14D1144B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D911AA.4010104@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Other than the relative jumps, the enhanced instruction set of the Z80 > rarely brought much speed increase by itself. For example, moving a block Many of the Z80 opcodes are slower than 8085. Even the JP's and JR's have to be used carefully if you're penny-pinching T-states. > of bytes using LDIR isn't really much faster than using a MOV A,M/STAX D > type of loop. On the other hand, the INI and OTI instructions was very > welcome when one had to deal with a peripheral whose I/O port addresses > weren't known in advance. The alternative on the 8080/8085 was > hot-patching code--an impossiblity if one was executing out of ROM--one had > to copy the applicable code into RAM and execute it there. Not a great > feature if the I/O ports in question controlled the bank-switching hardware > and you were trying to do a RAM diagnostic. > > I've wondered about something for years, however. Did anyone ever make use > of the fact that an INI or OTI instruction placed the contents of both the > B and C registers on the Z80 address bus? It would seem to be a simple way > of expanding the I/O space to 64K ports. Yes. If you search comp.arch.embedded you'll see I've had arguments about this with "unbelievers" in the past :> Some CPUs actually *rely* on this. E.g, the 64180 family ('180, '7180, NPU?, etc.) locate certain IO registers in "page 0". To access them, you must either set B to 0 beforehand *or* use the special "OUT0" opcode, etc. Having B appear on the address bus is a nice way of combining an IN and OUT instruction into a single operation. I often exploit this when decoding key matrixes, etc. (i.e. set B to whatever you want to appear on the row drivers, C to the IO address for the "keyboard" and do an IN A,C) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 8 17:03:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 23:03:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Gooey tape rollers - how widespread is this problem ? In-Reply-To: from "Armistead, Jason" at Aug 8, 6 01:00:46 am Message-ID: > I've noticed a few recent postings about tape rollers turning to mush if > they haven't been used for a while. > > How widespread is this problem ? Does it affect all brands of tape drives, It's a problem with certain 'reubber' compounds. Certainly the drive rollers in the magnetic card readers for HP calculators are affected -- from the HP9100 onwards. I've had to do every HP calcuator reader roller that I own. It's also a problem with some cartridge tape drive capstans (TU58, HP calcualtors (again), etc). And some printer plattens (my Versatec V80 needs a rebuild...) > How old do the tape drives have to be before this problem appears ? It is > related purely to age, or does usage play a factor ? I think it's mostly old age. I don't think it's due to wear in use. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 8 17:13:48 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 23:13:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mac 840AV networking In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0608080615g500d4411q3f4a3c47d53055b2@mail.gmail.com> from "Jason McBrien" at Aug 8, 6 09:15:18 am Message-ID: > of about 80 PCs daisy chained together. It seemed like every time a user > brushed against a coax cable half the segment would go down, then you'd get > to trace out which cable went flaky. Sometimes the cable would go flaky > overnight, just for the fun of it. This generally means somebody has misused the BNC plugs. Personally, I use solder-type BNCs, and get the right ones for the cable I am using. When I was doing this as part of a job, I used crimp plugs, but again got the right ones for the cable and used an expenxive (very expensive) crimp tool). if you use any old BNC plugs and crimp them with a cheap tool (or worse still with pliers), you will have problems. But correctly done, a BNC connector is very reliable. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 8 16:51:15 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 22:51:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... In-Reply-To: <44D7C672.1020703@dakotacom.net> from "Don" at Aug 7, 6 04:02:10 pm Message-ID: > > > True, but they cannot do 1-off custom. I have a handful of much-beloved > > reel-to-reel audio tape decks and turntables in need of replacement > > rubber. Is there anyone in the world tooled up for custom belts and > > rollers anymore? > > Are you sure your needs are "custom"? Flat/toothed belts > tend to be hard to find "in variety"... but I have been able > to find almost *any* of the round or "square" (cross sectional) > belts used in most consumer gear. Can you recomend any places to start looking (usual disclaimers, of course). I collect names of companies that sell useful stuff for hacking/restoration. > > Do you have an existing belt to use as a template? > Or, barring that, the diameters of the pulleys and > their center-to-center distances (from which > computing belt size is straightforward...) FWIW, there's a program in the HP67 Mechanical Engineering Pac (which will also run on the HP41 series with a card reader) that calculates belt length given the diameters of the pulleys and the coordinates of their shafts. It assumes the belt goes round the outside of all the pulleys, it gets the wrong answer if one pulley is outside the belt (which would be done if that pulley needs to turn the opposite way)[1]. [1] The thermal printer in muy HP9845B has a toothed (timing) belt with teeth on both sides. Yes, one sprocket is outside the belt and turns 'backwards'. > > Typically, these belts run $1 - $2 ... which is outrageous > when you consider you're buying a glorified "rubber band" > but a *steal* when you consider it's actual VALUE!! Oh, indeed. Remember you're restoring a valuable (to you) computer or whatever. -tony From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 8 18:08:13 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:08:13 -0700 Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D9195D.6000906@dakotacom.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>> True, but they cannot do 1-off custom. I have a handful of much-beloved >>> reel-to-reel audio tape decks and turntables in need of replacement >>> rubber. Is there anyone in the world tooled up for custom belts and >>> rollers anymore? >> Are you sure your needs are "custom"? Flat/toothed belts >> tend to be hard to find "in variety"... but I have been able >> to find almost *any* of the round or "square" (cross sectional) >> belts used in most consumer gear. > > Can you recomend any places to start looking (usual disclaimers, of > course). I collect names of companies that sell useful stuff for > hacking/restoration. I just go to one of the local electronic stores. They have a wall display of assorted belts, each individually packaged (to justify the price? :< ). Of course, they have no information as to *applications* so it is wise to know what you are looking for before walking in. I was there today. Had I read my mail before driving over there, I would have noted the name on the "individually wrapped" packages for you (I will make a note to check next time I am in that part of town) >> Do you have an existing belt to use as a template? >> Or, barring that, the diameters of the pulleys and >> their center-to-center distances (from which >> computing belt size is straightforward...) > > FWIW, there's a program in the HP67 Mechanical Engineering Pac (which > will also run on the HP41 series with a card reader) that calculates belt > length given the diameters of the pulleys and the coordinates of their > shafts. It assumes the belt goes round the outside of all the pulleys, it > gets the wrong answer if one pulley is outside the belt (which would be > done if that pulley needs to turn the opposite way)[1]. The problem with many of these belts is they usually ride in a groove cut in the circumfrence of the pulleys. It seems like the depth of that groove is typically half the "diagonal" thickness of the belt (assuming a square cross section) So, one more bit of math involved. It's often easiest to bring an old belt -- even if broken -- since the packages are transparent and you can just lay the old belt atop the new belt and compare sizes. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 8 18:10:44 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:10:44 -0700 Subject: Mac 840AV networking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D919F4.6050108@dakotacom.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> of about 80 PCs daisy chained together. It seemed like every time a user >> brushed against a coax cable half the segment would go down, then you'd get >> to trace out which cable went flaky. Sometimes the cable would go flaky >> overnight, just for the fun of it. > > This generally means somebody has misused the BNC plugs. Personally, I > use solder-type BNCs, and get the right ones for the cable I am using. > When I was doing this as part of a job, I used crimp plugs, but again got > the right ones for the cable and used an expenxive (very expensive) crimp > tool). > > if you use any old BNC plugs and crimp them with a cheap tool (or worse > still with pliers), you will have problems. But correctly done, a BNC > connector is very reliable. The problem, in my experience, is folks who beat on the T's and end up introducing "slop" into the connections. I've found the "goal post" T's to be much easier on the cable as they let them dress more naturally (though there is still some stress on the connection to the transceiver's BNC) From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 8 18:15:18 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:15:18 -0700 Subject: Newton Message-ID: <44D91B06.4070303@dakotacom.net> Pulled a Newton (110?) out of the trash today (complete with power, faxmodem, carrying case, etc.) Appears to work. Can these be repurposed? Or, is it just an oversized, underpowered "notepad"? From dholland at woh.rr.com Tue Aug 8 18:18:56 2006 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 19:18:56 -0400 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <1155079137.30842.2.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Mon, 2006-08-07 at 16:58 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > On today's BBC "Analysis", there's a little segment on the issue of > > personal computers being obsolete because of the rise of The Internet. > > Supposedly, we're going to be using our televisions or mobile phones in > > place of them. The whole segment hinges on the statement of MS that the > > desktop PC is dead and that the future is The Internet and we'd all better > > get used to it. > > This whole "the Internet is the Platform" is rather amusing when you think > about it. It's basically Mainframe thinking. It's also about taking > control of peoples data away from them, and transferring ownership of that > data to the corporations. > Didn't you get the memo? "The Network is the Computer" :-) David From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 8 18:26:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:26:48 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D911AA.4010104@dakotacom.net> References: <44D62961.2080105@dakotacom.net> <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> <200608061906.47886.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D8A98B.10600@neurotica.com> <200608080925190741.14D1144B@10.0.0.252> <44D911AA.4010104@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608081626480064.1652F057@10.0.0.252> On 8/8/2006 at 3:35 PM Don wrote: >Having B appear on the address bus is a nice way of combining >an IN and OUT instruction into a single operation. I often >exploit this when decoding key matrixes, etc. (i.e. set >B to whatever you want to appear on the row drivers, C to >the IO address for the "keyboard" and do an IN A,C) Yes! I prefer to think of it as a 16-bit port address. But the idea's the same, instead of latching an index value into a register file on a device, one can simply use the value of the B register as the index and do away wit hthe latch entirely, saving valuable time. The NSC800 has a configuration port at 0bbh, which can be modified with the register-indirect form of the OUT instruction, but not the immediate-port form. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 8 18:30:27 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 19:30:27 -0400 Subject: Truth (was: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608081930.27835.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 08 August 2006 06:28 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > apparently have electronics in the newer ones... > > > > > > Alas yes. My father has just got a new car with electronics everywhere > > > > > > :-(. > > > > We have four vehicles here, all with problems of one sort or another > > that are currently sitting idle waiting for the funds to fix them. One > > car was on the road until yesterday when it was shut off and refused to > > restart, and when I looked it over (some miles away from here > > unfortunately) it appeared to be getting fuel but no spark. And thanks > > to the electronics that's as far as I could go with it. > > Ouch!. Is it fuel-injected? Yes, which goes for three of the four. > If so, often the same sensors (and control unit, at least in part) are used > to trigger both the injectors and the ignition coils (most modern engines > don't have an HT distributor, they either have a coil per spark plug, or a > coil for every pair of plugs with a wasted spark on a plug in a cylinder > that's at the top of the exhaust stroke, if you see what I mean). That one has a distributor, and a coil, which was part of what I checked. > Do you have any docs at all? The workshop manual shold at least give > pinouts of the control modules, from which you can deduce the signals, etc. I have a really awful Chilton's book for it which covers way too many years to be specific. They referred to the control module for the electronic ignition and said it was inside the distributor but when I looked at the pic they showed and looked under the cap what I saw was a metal disk under the rotor, and no obvious way to get that out of the way. > > > There's a control unit for the (automatic) gearbox. According to the > > > workshop manual, there are 6 solenoid valves inside the gearbox, and > > > also a manual slide valve coupled to the selector lever. Alas it > > > doesn't explain what the latter does (if it fails you change the whole > > > valve block), > > > > Here I've heard that portion referred to as "valve body". > > Yep, different manufacturers used different terms. > > > > it doesn't explain what each of the solenoids does (it does give > > > the dC resistances and the pins on the conector that each solenoid is > > > linked to so you can find a defective solenoid) > > > > > > Oh well. I don't suppose I'll ever have to get amongst this, but it > > > would be interesting to know what's going on. > > > > I have a van sitting out back which has a real problem in that regard, > > you put it in gear and nothing whatsoever happens as far as any motion is > > concerned. And it's new enough to have one of those electronic > > transmissions which I believe got seriously overheated at some point. > > I'm sure that the fluid that I checked is not supposed to be as black as > > motor oil turns out to be at times. And either getting that one fixed or > > even getting one from a > > Ouch!. My guess is that you have a major mechancial problem with the > transmission (burnt clutch plates?), and that the electronics might well > be fine. I'm still quoted $1100 to fix it, so it's been sitting since December or so. > At least the manual for our car does document taking the mechancial side > of the transmission apart, right down to clutch plates and thrust > washers, etc. I don't fancy doing it, but I would if necessary. I've changed one out so far, in a car that I had, and swore at that point that I'd never do that again, but people tell me that in a van it's easier and the quote on that is like $600, if I can somehow scrape that up. Not fun... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 8 18:34:44 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 17:34:44 -0600 Subject: IDE doesn't suck! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060808121615.05620398@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060807105402.03c02150@mail.30below.com> <30a25e66f80541c79f3f77b309ee64bf@valleyimplants.com> <30a25e66f80541c79f3f77b309ee64bf@valleyimplants.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060807105402.03c02150@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060808121615.05620398@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <44D91F94.4060109@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Oh, and you're wrong. ;-) If you have a compact flash and/or hard drive > bigger than 82Meg, you can have 255 virtual floppies for RS-DOS, and an > OS-9 partition above that. [[ I keep my (slowly growing) collection of > RS-DOS kids games on drives 10-19. ;-) ]] > What I really would have liked back then was a REAL 2 MHZ 6809 machine. If BYTE and other magizines had pushed SWTP's and 6800/6809 products where whould computing be today. I expect a real OS that worked. A real modular video-sound system and who knows what. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 8 18:38:17 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 17:38:17 -0600 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D90F36.8010805@dakotacom.net> References: <44D62961.2080105@dakotacom.net> <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> <200608061906.47886.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D8A98B.10600@neurotica.com> <44D90F36.8010805@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44D92069.8090602@jetnet.ab.ca> Don wrote: > Alternate registers are useful for interrupt handlers -- *if* > you ensure that they can't be nested. You can cheat and > use AF in one IRQ and the other pairs (EXX) in another IRQ > (of course, assuming you only need AF in the one and don't > need A or F in the other! :> ) Well one use could be a dedicated controler -- IO ports, ROM,CPU and OSC. The alternate set would provide the ram. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 8 18:40:57 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 16:40:57 -0700 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <200608081608.24548.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> <200608081608.24548.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: At 4:08 PM -0400 8/8/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Giant laptops? First I've heard of those. I woulnd't mind something that had >most of a "real" keyboard attached instead of those miniatureized abbreviated >ones they all seem to favor. The trend (that I've managed to observe, and I >surely don't claim to be on top of this stuff) seems to be to keep runtime at >an absurdly low number while continuing to add more features, more hardware, >and do other things to suck up any gains that might happen in terms of >improvements in battery technology or elsewhere. By "Giant laptops" I mean those monster laptops that are supposed to be desktop replacements. 17" screens and the like. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Tue Aug 8 18:42:23 2006 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 16:42:23 -0700 Subject: Help in SoCal with an Apple I or IBM PC? Message-ID: <044a01c6bb44$4de82eb0$6401a8c0@NFORCE4> >From my inbox: --- I'm writing from Weekend America, a nationally syndicated public radio program based in Los Angeles. http://weekendamerica.org We're looking into a story about the 25th anniversary of the IBM PC as well as the 30th anniversary of the Apple I. We'd like to get in contact with someone in the Southern California area who actually owns a 1981 IBM PC or a 1976 Apple I. We'd appreciate any help you can offer. Thank you. Connie Wong Production Intern Weekend America (213) 621-3547 cwongNOSPAM at NOSPAMmarketplace.org --- If anyone does end up helping Connie out please let me know how it went! :) Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forums From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 8 18:45:38 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:45:38 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608081626480064.1652F057@10.0.0.252> References: <44D62961.2080105@dakotacom.net> <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> <200608061906.47886.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D8A98B.10600@neurotica.com> <200608080925190741.14D1144B@10.0.0.252> <44D911AA.4010104@dakotacom.net> <200608081626480064.1652F057@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D92222.90101@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/8/2006 at 3:35 PM Don wrote: > >> Having B appear on the address bus is a nice way of combining >> an IN and OUT instruction into a single operation. I often >> exploit this when decoding key matrixes, etc. (i.e. set >> B to whatever you want to appear on the row drivers, C to >> the IO address for the "keyboard" and do an IN A,C) > > Yes! I prefer to think of it as a 16-bit port address. But the idea's the It is. I just like using half of *that* address space (for the keypad) as an output port. Just like partially decoding addresses instead of *fully* decoding them. > same, instead of latching an index value into a register file on a device, > one can simply use the value of the B register as the index and do away wit > hthe latch entirely, saving valuable time. Well, you still need a set of buffers. But, buffers are cheaper and don't ALSO require a separate I/O address decode (to LATCH the data). So, you can: LD B,0xFF LD C,KEYPAD_PORT IN A,C JR Z,NO_KEYSDOWN LD B,0x01 LOOP: IN A,(C) JR NZ,KEYS_IN_THIS_ROW_DOWN RLC B JP LOOP Note the unconditional JP used instead of JR since it is faster (the conditional JP/JR are the same speed so use the JR's since they are smaller) Also note that IN A,(C) doesn't require a subsequent operation to set the condition codes as *it* does (whereas IN A,(###) would not). The tiny buglet in the code is left as an exercise for the reader :> > The NSC800 has a configuration port at 0bbh, which can be modified with the > register-indirect form of the OUT instruction, but not the immediate-port > form. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 8 18:48:05 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:48:05 -0700 Subject: IDE doesn't suck! In-Reply-To: <44D91F94.4060109@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060807105402.03c02150@mail.30below.com> <30a25e66f80541c79f3f77b309ee64bf@valleyimplants.com> <30a25e66f80541c79f3f77b309ee64bf@valleyimplants.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060807105402.03c02150@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060808121615.05620398@mail.30below.com> <44D91F94.4060109@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44D922B5.6090401@dakotacom.net> woodelf wrote: > Roger Merchberger wrote: > >> Oh, and you're wrong. ;-) If you have a compact flash and/or hard >> drive bigger than 82Meg, you can have 255 virtual floppies for RS-DOS, >> and an OS-9 partition above that. [[ I keep my (slowly growing) >> collection of RS-DOS kids games on drives 10-19. ;-) ]] >> > What I really would have liked back then was a REAL 2 MHZ 6809 > machine. If BYTE and other magizines had pushed SWTP's and 6800/6809 > products where whould computing be today. I expect a real OS that worked. > A real modular video-sound system and who knows what. Yes, a 2MHz 6809 really could do a lot, relatively speaking. It was always one of the higher priorities on the "wish list" of video (arcade) game designers at the time (but it adds a lot to the overall cost of a game, back then) From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 8 18:50:45 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:50:45 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D92069.8090602@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <44D62961.2080105@dakotacom.net> <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> <200608061906.47886.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D8A98B.10600@neurotica.com> <44D90F36.8010805@dakotacom.net> <44D92069.8090602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44D92355.90504@dakotacom.net> woodelf wrote: > Don wrote: > >> Alternate registers are useful for interrupt handlers -- *if* >> you ensure that they can't be nested. You can cheat and >> use AF in one IRQ and the other pairs (EXX) in another IRQ >> (of course, assuming you only need AF in the one and don't >> need A or F in the other! :> ) > Well one use could be a dedicated controler -- IO ports, > ROM,CPU and OSC. The alternate set would provide the ram. Pretty skimpy to try to work with just 8 bytes of RAM :> (and F would be difficult to access). The '7180 was a great part during it day as it had 512 bytes of RAM, internal (and 16K of OTP). I would use them to throw together dog-and-ponies for prospective clients. You could even *leave* the prototype with them and not fear that they were going to "dump the ROM"... ;> From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Aug 8 18:57:22 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 00:57:22 +0100 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <44D91B06.4070303@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: On 9/8/06 00:15, "Don" wrote: > Pulled a Newton (110?) out of the trash today > (complete with power, faxmodem, carrying case, etc.) > Appears to work. > > Can these be repurposed? Or, is it just an oversized, > underpowered "notepad"? Apologies for this, but what sort of politically correct homogenised saccharined Americanised word is 'repurposed'? I don't want to get off on a rant here but I already thought the second-hand market was going nuts with words like 'pre-owned' and 'pre-loved' but 'repurposed?' We got in trouble last year because one of us had taken a bite off a tortilla and, get this, DIPPED IT IN SOME SAUCE before taking another bite! Horrors! The death dealing double dipper had struck! Plastic gloves all round! Oops, sorry, I went all Dennis Miller there. Dipping apologies all round, move on, nothing to see here. Computers eh. Sorry Jay, something within me snapped and I hope I can get it fixed without spending thousands on needless medical insurance :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 8 19:06:30 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 17:06:30 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <44D92222.90101@dakotacom.net> References: <44D62961.2080105@dakotacom.net> <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> <200608061906.47886.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D8A98B.10600@neurotica.com> <200608080925190741.14D1144B@10.0.0.252> <44D911AA.4010104@dakotacom.net> <200608081626480064.1652F057@10.0.0.252> <44D92222.90101@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608081706300064.167748A8@10.0.0.252> On 8/8/2006 at 4:45 PM Don wrote: >The tiny buglet in the code is left as an exercise for >the reader :> You mean that IN A,C won't get past the assembler? That ain't a buglet--it's a typo. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Aug 8 19:24:39 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 17:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Help in SoCal with an Apple I or IBM PC? In-Reply-To: <044a01c6bb44$4de82eb0$6401a8c0@NFORCE4> References: <044a01c6bb44$4de82eb0$6401a8c0@NFORCE4> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Aug 2006, Erik Klein wrote: > >From my inbox: > > --- > I'm writing from Weekend America, a nationally syndicated public radio > program based in Los Angeles. > http://weekendamerica.org > > We're looking into a story about the 25th anniversary of the IBM PC as well > as the 30th anniversary of the Apple I. > > > We'd like to get in contact with someone in the Southern California area who > actually owns a 1981 IBM PC or a 1976 Apple I. > > We'd appreciate any help you can offer. > > Thank you. I know someone from the LA area who has an Apple I, though he's since moved to Oregon. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Aug 8 19:50:18 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 19:50:18 -0500 Subject: IRISes (WAS Re: Scouting mission) Message-ID: <7c294b0e020d461da27a375307e194d9@valleyimplants.com> > I've already aquired a couple of Personal IRISes, an Indy and an Indigo2, so >I'm all set on the playing-around-with-IRIX front :) Aahh yes - but IRIS x000 don't run IRIX, they run GL2-W with the MEX windowing system. Verry different, verry interestink... Might I suggest 4D1-3.3.2 (IRIX 3.3.2) on a PI - 4D1-3.x had a NeWS based windowing-system, among the few NeWS systems released standard (I'm not even sure which SunOS Sun's NeWS came with - SunOS 3 was SunView, SunOS 4 was OpenWindows (NeWS+X11, but not strictly NeWS). IRIX 5.3 should go on one machine (5.3+XFS should you be lucky enough to find it). This will allow you to run COFF binaries. The other one (R4k) should run an IRIX 6.x release. The 3000 with GL2-W3.6 would fit in quite nicely... From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Aug 8 19:55:00 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 19:55:00 -0500 Subject: Troubleshooting SPARCstation LX Message-ID: <40d247a3e7134cf9a01f3c3ecd5c5851@valleyimplants.com> >Yes...but there's an easier way. > >Leave input-device set to keyboard and output-device set to screen, and >simply unplug the keyboard. When it can't find the keyboard, it >switches over to ttya for input and output on its own. The point I was pontificating and pondering as a possibility presumes, perhaps, prior persons preselecting port 1 or 2 for the console, and since the OBP was directing output there, you wouldn't get output on the screen, which was the initial problem in the post, From technobug at comcast.net Tue Aug 8 19:55:34 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 17:55:34 -0700 Subject: Mac 840AV networking In-Reply-To: <200608082350.k78NnuMd066830@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608082350.k78NnuMd066830@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <8F2D47FA-58A5-4D22-8EF3-1D4A6F096554@comcast.net> On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 22:59:12 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > AFAIK the signals on the 'mini centronics' connector on the Mac are > much > the same as the 'real' AUI interface, with the exception that > there's a > 5V power line, not 12V. In which case you can't link it directly to > a 10 > base T hub. you need a trasnceriver. All my Apple branded AAUI with an RJ45 do 10BASET just fine. The power supply does not set the interface parameters, but the coupling transformer. I've 100BASET designs running off 3.3 VDC. CRC From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Aug 8 20:02:16 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 20:02:16 -0500 Subject: Scouting Mission Message-ID: <94d2cb1470ce420182c330c27fc3a55e@valleyimplants.com> >The terminal style IRIS must have been more or less same height and >same depth, but it isn't as wide as I think it has less space for >boards. I have never seen the rack, but I have also seen it mentioned >in the Old IRIS FAQ. No, about the same depth but it didn't have the drive bays in the top so it was noticeably shorter. It could go on the desk (terminal system, not rack). From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Aug 8 20:11:39 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 20:11:39 -0500 Subject: VAXen RULE! (Was: Microkernels) Message-ID: <0899350538654a9e99c1b36aec064b59@valleyimplants.com> > The best processor is going to be different based on the person >you are talking to. Everyone has their own idea as to what >features are important, and fond old memories of working on >an ancient (wasn't then) OS tend to sway their decision. That was implied, but I'll reiterate: What platform (includes implementation) do you think was really neat and why. P.S. The VAX had problems quote was mostly to illustrate that all computers can be dissed. Somebody asked why: mostly implementation. The original VAX was very instruction-heavy, but DEC did it right and started offloading to "heavy microcode" (read emulator). However, some VAXen designed in 1992 were still using Q-bus for main expansion. 'Nuff said. Implementation. There are other little bits like this. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Aug 8 20:15:57 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 20:15:57 -0500 Subject: IDE doesn't suck Message-ID: <47d36121645640b9a967b16e2038a7ae@valleyimplants.com> >MacOS's poorly named OS9, which I tend to refer to MacOS9 so there's less >confusion. Just be Olde Schoole and say "Mac System 9" Less to trip the toungue with. Same with VMS. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Aug 8 20:24:49 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 20:24:49 -0500 Subject: End of PeeCees? (HIJACKED TO "QIC-150 tape questions") Message-ID: > Didn't you get the memo? > >"The Network is the Computer" AHA! Back on topic. They sold you both, and it worked, and it was pretty open-standard. Another Sun-(kina-sorta-related) question - have a Sun labeled Archive 150MB QIC, and I was trying to read some of the CV tapes that Josh had, but I was having big problems with errors and the tape going slack. I've been trying to figure out what's up, as his QIC24 60-meg is reading them just fine. Any ideas? (the roller is in good health) From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 8 20:49:14 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 18:49:14 -0700 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D93F1A.3060904@dakotacom.net> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 9/8/06 00:15, "Don" wrote: > >> Pulled a Newton (110?) out of the trash today >> (complete with power, faxmodem, carrying case, etc.) >> Appears to work. >> >> Can these be repurposed? Or, is it just an oversized, >> underpowered "notepad"? > > Apologies for this, but what sort of politically correct homogenised > saccharined Americanised word is 'repurposed'? I don't want to get off on a > rant here but I already thought the second-hand market was going nuts with > words like 'pre-owned' and 'pre-loved' but 'repurposed?' Apologies. I had thought "repurposed" was pretty much a run-of-the-mill term -- especially when applied to older machines! Take an old IA1 and "repurpose" it as a digital picture frame. Take an old generic PC and repurpose it as a router. Take an old PDA and repurpose it as an MP3 player. etc. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 8 20:50:59 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 18:50:59 -0700 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <200608081706300064.167748A8@10.0.0.252> References: <44D62961.2080105@dakotacom.net> <200608061205140608.0B16C7D4@10.0.0.252> <200608061906.47886.rtellason@verizon.net> <44D8A98B.10600@neurotica.com> <200608080925190741.14D1144B@10.0.0.252> <44D911AA.4010104@dakotacom.net> <200608081626480064.1652F057@10.0.0.252> <44D92222.90101@dakotacom.net> <200608081706300064.167748A8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D93F83.7080806@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/8/2006 at 4:45 PM Don wrote: > >> The tiny buglet in the code is left as an exercise for >> the reader :> > > You mean that > > IN A,C > > won't get past the assembler? That ain't a buglet--it's a typo. Apologies, that *is* a typo. The buglet is the loop my *never* terminate... ;-) From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 8 20:52:11 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 18:52:11 -0700 Subject: Troubleshooting SPARCstation LX In-Reply-To: <40d247a3e7134cf9a01f3c3ecd5c5851@valleyimplants.com> References: <40d247a3e7134cf9a01f3c3ecd5c5851@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <44D93FCB.1030402@dakotacom.net> Scott Quinn wrote: >> Yes...but there's an easier way. >> >> Leave input-device set to keyboard and output-device set to screen, and >> simply unplug the keyboard. When it can't find the keyboard, it >> switches over to ttya for input and output on its own. > > The point I was pontificating and pondering as a possibility presumes, perhaps, prior persons > preselecting port 1 or 2 for the console, and since the OBP was directing output there, you wouldn't > get output on the screen, which was the initial problem in the post, Would't my suggestion of "verify keyboar attached; STOP-N" do the trick? From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 8 21:36:30 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 22:36:30 -0400 Subject: VAXen RULE! (Was: Microkernels) In-Reply-To: <0899350538654a9e99c1b36aec064b59@valleyimplants.com> References: <0899350538654a9e99c1b36aec064b59@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200608082236.30399.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 08 August 2006 09:11 pm, Scott Quinn wrote: > > The best processor is going to be different based on the person > >you are talking to. Everyone has their own idea as to what > >features are important, and fond old memories of working on > >an ancient (wasn't then) OS tend to sway their decision. > > That was implied, but I'll reiterate: What platform (includes > implementation) do you think was really neat and why. > > P.S. The VAX had problems quote was mostly to illustrate that all computers > can be dissed. Somebody asked why: mostly implementation. The original VAX > was very instruction-heavy, but DEC did it right and started offloading to > "heavy microcode" (read emulator). However, some VAXen designed in 1992 > were still using Q-bus for main expansion. 'Nuff said. Implementation. > There are other little bits like this. Ok, I'm not at all familiar with this hardware, so maybe I'm a little unclear when it comes to what you're talking about here -- you like the CPU but don't like the bus? Or is that something else? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 8 22:07:25 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 20:07:25 -0700 Subject: Mac keyboards In-Reply-To: <200608072326460864.12AD185A@10.0.0.252> References: <44D81350.8030606@dakotacom.net> <200608072326460864.12AD185A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44D9516D.3080807@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/7/2006 at 11:09 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> At 9:30 PM -0700 8/7/06, Don wrote: >> Get yourself the "Cadillac" of keyboards, the "Apple Extended >> Keyboard II". It's an ADB keyboard that originally sold for $160. >> I've been using the one I'm typing this on for just short of 10 >> years. Only one of the 3 computers I've used it on had ADB, the >> other two are USB. I'm currently using a G5 2x2. > > I'm sitting in front of an HP keyboard that was pulled new out of its box > not six months ago. As I look at it now, the legneds on the "A" and "J" > keys are barely legible. Why are keyboards such pieces of junk nowadays? > Time to go back to my IBM model M. When you make a *quality* keyboard, the keycaps are shot *twice* during the molding process -- once for the legend and once for the key itself. So, the legend's color is "in the plastic" instead of screened *on* the plastic. Obviously, costs a fair bit more to do things this way. Just like equipment cases that re *painted* vs. those where the color is molded into the plastic. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 8 22:08:40 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 20:08:40 -0700 Subject: Mac 840AV networking In-Reply-To: <10608080830.ZM9675@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <44D7D67C.9000105@dakotacom.net> <10608080830.ZM9675@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <44D951B8.9000602@dakotacom.net> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Aug 7 2006, 17:10, Don wrote: > >> The Asante box has an RJ45 on the rear. The cable that >> mates to the network connector on the 840AV has that >> funky mini-centronics on one end and an RJ45 *plug* >> on the other. >> >> This choice of connectors -- and the "Thin Adapter" >> moniker -- suggests that I could plug the RJ45 *plug* >> end of this cable into a hub directly? > > I have a few of those. No, sorry, the RJ45 isn't a 10baseT connection. > It's more like an AUI connection, but with a different connector. So, it was just an unfortunate choice of connector (for the end that receives the cable from the AAUI) on Asante's part. Sheesh! From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 8 22:12:12 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 20:12:12 -0700 Subject: Mac 840AV networking In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0608080615g500d4411q3f4a3c47d53055b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <44D7D67C.9000105@dakotacom.net> <5f7d1b0e0608071941g37b46858y425e783d65135e49@mail.gmail.com> <44D8042E.7090805@dakotacom.net> <5f7d1b0e0608080615g500d4411q3f4a3c47d53055b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44D9528C.10304@dakotacom.net> Jason McBrien wrote: > On 8/7/06, Don wrote: >> Well, if your boxes will only run 10Mb/s, 10Base2 is a *cabling* >> win if you have a lot of boxes in a small area -- since you can >> daisy chain them instead of having to make room for a hub/switch >> *and* N cables ... :-/ > > Yep, for a smallish network it isn't bad. Unfortunatly I inherited two labs > of about 80 PCs daisy chained together. It seemed like every time a user > brushed against a coax cable half the segment would go down, then you'd get > to trace out which cable went flaky. Sometimes the cable would go flaky > overnight, just for the fun of it. Understood. I used 10Base2 as an interconnect scheme for some process control equipment (where daisy-chaining cable is inifinitely preferable to having to locate another piece of gear -- hub/switch) but avoided the T's and BNC's for exactly that reason. At home, I rarely find problems with the 2 10Base2 networks here. But, they are small and have few enough nodes that even if a problem materializes it is more often than not a cable that I unplugged to move a piece of gear :-( From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 8 22:25:57 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 21:25:57 -0600 Subject: Mac keyboards In-Reply-To: <44D9516D.3080807@dakotacom.net> References: <44D81350.8030606@dakotacom.net> <200608072326460864.12AD185A@10.0.0.252> <44D9516D.3080807@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44D955C5.5030904@jetnet.ab.ca> Don wrote: > When you make a *quality* keyboard, the keycaps are shot > *twice* during the molding process -- once for the legend > and once for the key itself. So, the legend's color is > "in the plastic" instead of screened *on* the plastic. > > Obviously, costs a fair bit more to do things this way. But who makes them? and with no windows ++ keys. > Just like equipment cases that re *painted* vs. those > where the color is molded into the plastic. What plastic? Big heavy painted racks on this list. :) From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Aug 8 22:22:30 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 22:22:30 -0500 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) Message-ID: There were two unrelated bits: ignore the VAX thing for now, I was just illustrating that "things" can be found in almost any family of computer that are a disappointment, not just x86. Merely illustrative. The second part was the general question, which I guess was a bit too specific. What computers have you come across that are really neat and why. OK.- System/3{60,70,90,z} is neat for it's processor instruction set, PERQs for the user-microcode. SGI Origin 2000's are neat for their CRAYlink/NUMAlink interconnect system, AXPs for the PALcode idea (sort of a takeoff of the PERQ). If you saw a computer that has a serial port implementation that is so elegant that it struck you as a thing of beauty throw that in ... I'm just interested in getting a feel for what's out there that members feel is neat. I was kind of thinking hardware to start with, but it could be extended to software. From miller.blair at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 22:40:21 2006 From: miller.blair at gmail.com (Blair Miller) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 23:40:21 -0400 Subject: Available: Procom CDT14-T8X-ETP In-Reply-To: <200608082109.k78L93Od063122@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608082109.k78L93Od063122@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <44D95925.4000000@gmail.com> > If need be, I also might be willing to drop it off... I guess you're not headed this way any time soon, eh? :-) Nay. Sorry man -- just a tad too far out-of-the-way. :) From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 8 22:52:26 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 20:52:26 -0700 Subject: Geek-only net In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060808160749.03bff698@mail.30below.com> References: <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> <200608072358.k77Nw1dd001566@onyx.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060808160749.03bff698@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: At 4:17 PM -0400 8/8/06, Roger Merchberger wrote: >Rumor has it that Bruce Lane may have mentioned these words: >> I ran a dialup FidoNet BBS for nearly ten years > >I haven't, but I'd certainly start one to get the (or at least *a*) >'net back to geek-only status... dammit, if ya don't wanna learn the >difference between a hard drive & a modem, you shouldn't be >telecommunicating. [[ In the car Let's see, there is HECnet, we've twenty some nodes online at the moment. If you feel the need for a web browser, there is Freenet, and I think one or two others. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 9 00:15:46 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 22:15:46 -0700 Subject: Mac keyboards In-Reply-To: <44D955C5.5030904@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <44D81350.8030606@dakotacom.net> <200608072326460864.12AD185A@10.0.0.252> <44D9516D.3080807@dakotacom.net> <44D955C5.5030904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44D96F82.1060708@dakotacom.net> woodelf wrote: > Don wrote: > >> When you make a *quality* keyboard, the keycaps are shot >> *twice* during the molding process -- once for the legend >> and once for the key itself. So, the legend's color is >> "in the plastic" instead of screened *on* the plastic. >> >> Obviously, costs a fair bit more to do things this way. > > But who makes them? > and with no windows ++ keys. Dunno -- I was just talking from past manufacturing experience. The only keyboards that I have which suffer from this "screened on legends" are laptops. And, I have decided that laptops are intended to be replaced as often as the OS is upgraded :-( >> Just like equipment cases that re *painted* vs. those >> where the color is molded into the plastic. > > What plastic? Big heavy painted racks on this list. :) Many have molded plastic "decorations" attached. From technobug at comcast.net Wed Aug 9 00:23:14 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 22:23:14 -0700 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <200608082350.k78NnuMd066830@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608082350.k78NnuMd066830@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <9CD020BB-DF00-4365-91A4-C9FE1F9039B1@comcast.net> On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:15:18 -0700, Don wrote: > Pulled a Newton (110?) out of the trash today > (complete with power, faxmodem, carrying case, etc.) > Appears to work. > > Can these be repurposed? Or, is it just an oversized, > underpowered "notepad"? I've used my 120 as a portable terminal. Not too bad if you can get by the handwriting recognition or tippy-tappin on the little graphic keyboard with the provided toothpick. A friend, a number of years back, hacked his box to be a TV remote. CRC From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Aug 9 00:27:22 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 00:27:22 -0500 Subject: Mac keyboards In-Reply-To: <44D955C5.5030904@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <44D81350.8030606@dakotacom.net> <200608072326460864.12AD185A@10.0.0.252> <44D9516D.3080807@dakotacom.net> <44D955C5.5030904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44D9723A.10808@mdrconsult.com> woodelf wrote: > Don wrote: > >> When you make a *quality* keyboard, the keycaps are shot >> *twice* during the molding process -- once for the legend >> and once for the key itself. So, the legend's color is >> "in the plastic" instead of screened *on* the plastic. >> >> Obviously, costs a fair bit more to do things this way. > > But who makes them? > and with no windows ++ keys. http://www.tactilepro.com Doc From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 9 00:36:43 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 01:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608090539.BAA29699@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Apologies for this, but what sort of politically correct homogenised > saccharined Americanised word is 'repurposed'? I don't see it as any of those. What would you suggest instead? (In case the meaning really isn't clear to you, to repurpose something is to use it for a different purpose - different from *what* is generally indicated by context (most commonly, different from what it is currently being used for, or from what it was designed for).) If you know of a better word for the meaning, I'd love to hear. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From Jason.Armistead at otis.com Tue Aug 8 20:11:07 2006 From: Jason.Armistead at otis.com (Armistead, Jason) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 21:11:07 -0400 Subject: Anyone want an MDX-SIO2 STD-Z80 bus UART technical manual ? Message-ID: Hi During a clean-up, I came across one copy of a Mizar Digital Systems / Hamilton Standard Digital Systems (aka Mostek) MDX-SIO2 board for the STD-Z80 bus. If anyone wants it, sing out or I'll be throwing it out. Cheers Jason From derschjo at msu.edu Wed Aug 9 00:02:06 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 22:02:06 -0700 Subject: ComputerVision CADDStation tapes now available (sorta) Message-ID: <44D96C4E.1080209@msu.edu> Thanks to suggestions from this list I've gotten most of the CADDStation tapes archived into a hopefully more permanent medium. In the event that there's someone out there who needs it, I've made the archived data available on my website at: http://yahozna.dhs.org/computers/software/CADDStation Hopefully, whoever holds the rights to this software (if anyone) won't care too much that some 20-year-old software's available for free on the internet :). These are archived into separate files, one per tape file. I used a variation of Scott Quinn's sh script to do the archiving. (The other suggested utilities, copytape and tapeutils would only copy a single file and then quit, thinking that EOT had been reached.) Use "dd" to put the files back onto the tape of your choice, in order. I have only verified that a couple of these tapes actually work on the physical machine (I've done my best to verify the copied bits), so there are no guarantees that everything works. But the 4.2bsd tape boots when I copy it back to a fresh tape, so I'm hoping that all the rest bits made it over OK... I'm in the process of attempting to install the rest. Interesting note, a lot of these tapes have hundreds of 0-length files on them; these seem to be placed between files with actual data in them. I have no idea if this was a standard practice (maybe ComputerVision hadn't heard of "tar" :)). Of the 50 or so tapes I've got, a dozen or so had read errors which halted the copying; some of these are on the site and are marked as "incomplete". I'm going to need to write or find a utility that'll skip bad spots on the tape (dd dies on my machine even if I specify "conv=noerror") to archive what's left of these bad tapes. Additionally, I'm missing a few tapes here and there, if anyone has copies of the following (or copies of tapes marked incomplete in the archive), I'd be interested in obtaining a copy: - CADDS Object Tape, v. 6.0MA, tape 1 of 2 - Platform Applications v. 4.03 and 5.00, tape 1 of 2 Thanks again, Josh From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 9 01:47:17 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 23:47:17 -0700 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <9CD020BB-DF00-4365-91A4-C9FE1F9039B1@comcast.net> References: <200608082350.k78NnuMd066830@dewey.classiccmp.org> <9CD020BB-DF00-4365-91A4-C9FE1F9039B1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <44D984F5.10500@dakotacom.net> CRC wrote: > > On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:15:18 -0700, Don wrote: > >> Pulled a Newton (110?) out of the trash today >> (complete with power, faxmodem, carrying case, etc.) >> Appears to work. >> >> Can these be repurposed? Or, is it just an oversized, >> underpowered "notepad"? > > I've used my 120 as a portable terminal. Not too bad if you can get by > the handwriting recognition or tippy-tappin on the little graphic > keyboard with the provided toothpick. > > A friend, a number of years back, hacked his box to be a TV remote. Can you "install" software (like on a Palm/Visor)? Or, do you need to surgical "change it's mind" :> From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Aug 9 04:32:33 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 11:32:33 +0200 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <44D984F5.10500@dakotacom.net> References: <9CD020BB-DF00-4365-91A4-C9FE1F9039B1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <44D9C7D1.11593.1F18AB94@localhost> Am 8 Aug 2006 23:47 meinte Don: > CRC wrote: > > On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:15:18 -0700, Don wrote: > >> Pulled a Newton (110?) out of the trash today > >> (complete with power, faxmodem, carrying case, etc.) > >> Appears to work. > >> Can these be repurposed? Or, is it just an oversized, > >> underpowered "notepad"? > > I've used my 120 as a portable terminal. Not too bad if you can get by > > the handwriting recognition or tippy-tappin on the little graphic > > keyboard with the provided toothpick. > > A friend, a number of years back, hacked his box to be a TV remote. > Can you "install" software (like on a Palm/Visor)? Or, do you > need to surgical "change it's mind" :> It's an open system. just unlike the Palm, it has an OS worth the name, not just an underpowered bootloader. Install the connection software on your PC/Mac (I prefer an 68k as development platform for the Newt) search the net, and install whatever you find - and there's quite a lot to find. Maybe first a freeze utility to 'unload' Apps would be a good first choice - Storage is rare, especialy on the old ones. But then again, huge (aka 16 MB :) PCMCIA memory cards aren't expensive anymore. Unlike most other devices, where you load and run programms like on a desktop, the Newt never terminates an application - you install it, it gets loaded, and it stays loaded and 'running' from there on. The system is awsome - just not your standard crap. Back then it was from outher space, today you might call it a Widget-Environment with a plugin framework... Whatever, don't forget to get the NewtonScript development tools. Some OO knowledge and a bit learning required, but it's realy worth. H. P.S.: Speaking of Macs, MS finaly dropt their VBA from Mac Office and goes for AS :)) -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Wed Aug 9 08:20:09 2006 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 09:20:09 -0400 Subject: Modern Modeming (was Re: Geek-only net) Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0608090620h3a1cef8cje91c9ec4715d3410@mail.gmail.com> So, has anyone tried using a modem over VoIP? We just signed up through our cable company, and have unlimited long distance dialing, so I could theoretically dial up anywhere in the CONUS for free. I'm concerned that the VoIP box uses some sort of adaptive noise-sensing compression what would kill a modem connection. Has anyone given it a try? From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Aug 9 08:25:47 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 09:25:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Modern Modeming (was Re: Geek-only net) In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0608090620h3a1cef8cje91c9ec4715d3410@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060809132547.F19A1581D1@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Jason McBrien > > So, has anyone tried using a modem over VoIP? We just signed up through our > cable company, and have unlimited long distance dialing, so I could > theoretically dial up anywhere in the CONUS for free. I'm concerned that the > VoIP box uses some sort of adaptive noise-sensing compression what would > kill a modem connection. Has anyone given it a try? > I have Vonage and it works _fairly_ good with a modem. I have found that a higher upload speed helps a lot. Also, (with Vonage) if you dial a "*99," before the number it is supposed to give you a higher quality line. Cheers, Bryan From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Aug 9 09:03:32 2006 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 10:03:32 -0400 Subject: Newton Message-ID: <4affc5e0608090703s5eec31cbhc90e102e40573230@mail.gmail.com> > > From: der Mouse > Subject: Re: Newton > > Apologies for this, but what sort of politically correct homogenised > > saccharined Americanised word is 'repurposed'? > > I don't see it as any of those. What would you suggest instead? (In > case the meaning really isn't clear to you, to repurpose something is > to use it for a different purpose - different from *what* is generally > indicated by context (most commonly, different from what it is > currently being used for, or from what it was designed for).) > > If you know of a better word for the meaning, I'd love to hear. > > Ah! my favorite german word! "Zweckentfremdung"! Joe. From ray at arachelian.com Wed Aug 9 09:25:15 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 10:25:15 -0400 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <44D91B06.4070303@dakotacom.net> References: <44D91B06.4070303@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44D9F04B.90906@arachelian.com> Don wrote: > Pulled a Newton (110?) out of the trash today > (complete with power, faxmodem, carrying case, etc.) > Appears to work. > > Can these be repurposed? Or, is it just an oversized, > underpowered "notepad"? > They are quite nice, but 120's and 130's have much better handwriting recognition, and the 2100 is the best/most useful of the Newton line. But of course, you can't beat free. :-) 110's can be quite useful in various ways, such as a graphics tablet with the right drivers on the PC/Mac end, or as remote controls, and of course as they're intended: as PDA's. Start here: http://www.unna.org/ and http://www.newtontalk.net/ Note that there is a huge Newton community out there. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 9 09:41:25 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 08:41:25 -0600 Subject: Mac keyboards In-Reply-To: <44D9723A.10808@mdrconsult.com> References: <44D81350.8030606@dakotacom.net> <200608072326460864.12AD185A@10.0.0.252> <44D9516D.3080807@dakotacom.net> <44D955C5.5030904@jetnet.ab.ca> <44D9723A.10808@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <44D9F415.1080904@jetnet.ab.ca> Doc Shipley wrote: > >> But who makes them? >> and with no windows ++ keys. > http://www.tactilepro.com > Doc I was hoping for a REAL KEYBOARD for a PEE-CEE. Like who needs POWER,SLEEP,INTERNET SURF... and CTRL/ALT with no windows key between. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 9 09:41:21 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 10:41:21 -0400 Subject: Mac keyboards In-Reply-To: <44D9F415.1080904@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <44D81350.8030606@dakotacom.net> <200608072326460864.12AD185A@10.0.0.252> <44D9516D.3080807@dakotacom.net> <44D955C5.5030904@jetnet.ab.ca> <44D9723A.10808@mdrconsult.com> <44D9F415.1080904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44D9F411.2030202@gmail.com> woodelf wrote: > Doc Shipley wrote: >> >>> But who makes them? >>> and with no windows ++ keys. >> http://www.tactilepro.com >> Doc > I was hoping for a REAL KEYBOARD for a PEE-CEE. > Like who needs POWER,SLEEP,INTERNET SURF... > and CTRL/ALT with no windows key between. Get the Unicomp EnduraPro/104+. A little pricy, but worth every penny. http://www.pckeyboard.com/ Peace... Sridhar From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Aug 9 09:49:31 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 15:49:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <200608090539.BAA29699@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200608090539.BAA29699@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1275.192.168.0.3.1155134971.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Wed, August 9, 2006 6:36 am, der Mouse said: > > If you know of a better word for the meaning, I'd love to hear. Over here we'd say 'reuse' or 'does it still have a use'. It just struck me as being another example of english gone mad like 'infomercial' and 'edutainment'. No harm meant, I think I'm still jetlagged :o) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Aug 9 09:50:45 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 15:50:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <44D984F5.10500@dakotacom.net> References: <200608082350.k78NnuMd066830@dewey.classiccmp.org> <9CD020BB-DF00-4365-91A4-C9FE1F9039B1@comcast.net> <44D984F5.10500@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <1277.192.168.0.3.1155135045.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Wed, August 9, 2006 7:47 am, Don said: >> A friend, a number of years back, hacked his box to be a TV remote. > > Can you "install" software (like on a Palm/Visor)? Or, do you > need to surgical "change it's mind" :> I'd like to know this too, I've got 2 newtons that could be used for remotes. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From jplist at kiwigeek.com Wed Aug 9 09:57:48 2006 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 09:57:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Modern Modeming (was Re: Geek-only net) In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0608090620h3a1cef8cje91c9ec4715d3410@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Aug 2006, Jason McBrien wrote: > So, has anyone tried using a modem over VoIP? We just signed up through our > cable company, and have unlimited long distance dialing, so I could > theoretically dial up anywhere in the CONUS for free. I'm concerned that the > VoIP box uses some sort of adaptive noise-sensing compression what would > kill a modem connection. Has anyone given it a try? Modems and faxes can be pretty spotty over VoIP - it depends largely on the carrier you are using and the CODEC involved. Not to mention how the 'net is behaving on that day. VoIP introduces delay into the line (regardless of whether a human ear notices it), which really plays hell with cheaper faxes. I've not tried a modem, but I imagine it doesn't help. Naturally the crappier your connection, or should Level3 be blowing goats that day (Like it was yesterday, grumble), the delay introduced can get up to a 1/4 second. The big one is lossy compression CODECs which can alter the tone of the blurbles being spat down the line. And since you don't really have any control over what CODEC Vonage, or other VoIP providers, are using between them and their PSTN gateways... you never really know what's going on. Thankfully echo isn't something you're likely to come across, since that is generated most often by handsets - and then made noticeable by the delay inherant to VoIP... but I suppose if your modem sucks...? Fax is not usually considered a "supported" medium over VoIP - T38 is a digital fax protocol and is what you're 'supposed' to use when doing this sort of thing. Smarter people than I came up with this one. Anyways. Junk to think about. I guess it should make you all that more amazed if it actually works semi-reliably. JP From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 9 10:51:01 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 11:51:01 -0400 Subject: TMS3409 Message-ID: I have eight little DIPs, all in a row, and am wondering what used these originally. They are Texas Instruments TMS3409 (AKA Intersil IM7780) static shift registers. Anyone know? Perhaps an old terminal once used these? Anyone need them? -- Will From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 9 11:47:14 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 09:47:14 -0700 Subject: Modern Modeming (was Re: Geek-only net) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DA1192.8090203@dakotacom.net> JP Hindin wrote: > > Modems and faxes can be pretty spotty over VoIP - it depends largely on > the carrier you are using and the CODEC involved. Not to mention how the > 'net is behaving on that day. > > VoIP introduces delay into the line (regardless of whether a human ear > notices it), which really plays hell with cheaper faxes. I've not tried a > modem, but I imagine it doesn't help. Naturally the crappier your > connection, or should Level3 be blowing goats that day (Like it was > yesterday, grumble), the delay introduced can get up to a 1/4 second. > The big one is lossy compression CODECs which can alter the tone of the > blurbles being spat down the line. And since you don't really have any > control over what CODEC Vonage, or other VoIP providers, are using between > them and their PSTN gateways... you never really know what's going on. > Thankfully echo isn't something you're likely to come across, since that > is generated most often by handsets - and then made noticeable by the > delay inherant to VoIP... but I suppose if your modem sucks...? > > Fax is not usually considered a "supported" medium over VoIP - T38 is a > digital fax protocol and is what you're 'supposed' to use when doing this > sort of thing. Smarter people than I came up with this one. I'd also tend to be skeptical about working. I have a digital PBX at home and know that trying to use an analog modem on any of those lines is an exercise in retro-technology ("Wanna see a 56K emulation of a Bell 103??"). You have quantization effects, delays, phase distortions (killers for the higher speed modems), etc. Your ear is amazingly tolerant in the crap it will process (just *think* about how different you sound on the phone) but machines tend to be less forgiving. Note that if your CO has you dangling off a SLIC96, you've discovered that there *is* a difference. ;> :-( From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 9 12:33:33 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 13:33:33 -0400 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DA1C6D.6090207@neurotica.com> Adrian Graham wrote: >> Pulled a Newton (110?) out of the trash today >> (complete with power, faxmodem, carrying case, etc.) >> Appears to work. >> >> Can these be repurposed? Or, is it just an oversized, >> underpowered "notepad"? > > Apologies for this, but what sort of politically correct homogenised > saccharined Americanised word is 'repurposed'? I don't want to get off on a > rant here but I already thought the second-hand market was going nuts with > words like 'pre-owned' and 'pre-loved' but 'repurposed?' Hey, it's not ALL of us Americans. The marketroid-suits have totally taken over this country. Every restaurant is now a "bistro", every used car is now "pre-owned", every trashy apartment is now a "town house" or a "coach home"...the list goes on and on. Languages do evolve over time, but knowing that has really provided very little solace in the face of all this mess. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 9 12:48:18 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 10:48:18 -0700 Subject: ComputerVision CADDStation tapes now available (sorta) Message-ID: Interesting note, a lot of these tapes have hundreds of 0-length files on them; these seem to be placed between files with actual data in them. I have no idea if this was a standard practice (maybe ComputerVision hadn't heard of "tar" :)). -- What you are seeing are file marks, which will return a zero length file if you just 'dd' them. I haven't looked at CV tapes in a LONG time, but from memory they are modified SunOS 3 - 4 distributions. What you should find is a table of contents at the front, some stand-alone utils, a dump file of the system, and lots of tarballs for the optional parts of the system. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 9 13:55:13 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 18:55:13 +0000 Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <200608081447490491.15F853D2@10.0.0.252> References: <0J3N0086HLM7PDV0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <200608072320540424.12A7B7A5@10.0.0.252> <20060808131055.G47012@shell.lmi.net> <200608081408310873.15D45AD7@10.0.0.252> <44D90FBA.6040405@yahoo.co.uk> <200608081447490491.15F853D2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44DA2F91.5010101@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/8/2006 at 10:27 PM Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Do you mean that all the 5150's sold with floppy drives were 64KB >> variants? >> (That's what I have - but I have no idea what was typical) > > IIRC, you could get a "bare" 5150 with 16K if you were lucky, but the IBM > diskette-equipped ones all had 64K AFAIK. Aha - OK. Unfortunately the BBC gave us 4 days notice that they needed a machine, which really isn't enough for me to dig mine out of storage, find some software, and properly test it. I can't imagine the whole show is quite so last-minute, though! > BTW, here's a link to the BBC WS programme: > http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/programmes/analysis.shtml Rats - no realplayer or WMP here :( > Strange that the program doesn't even mention the BBC PC. What BBC PC? Do you mean the Acorn BBC Micro? I think the first few of those were kicking around in late 1981 - which must have been almost exactly the same time as the IBM 5150. The Acorn Master 512 was semi IBM-compatible, but that was a lot later - circa 1986 (the Acorn ABC3xx machines were too and dated from about the same time, but they carried no BBC branding at all) > Maybe the Beeb doesn't want to be reminded. More likely that their workforce is made up of young blood these days who don't even know that such a thing existed... cheers Jules From alexeyt at freeshell.org Wed Aug 9 13:11:47 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 18:11:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <44DA1C6D.6090207@neurotica.com> References: <44DA1C6D.6090207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Aug 2006, Dave McGuire wrote: > Hey, it's not ALL of us Americans. The marketroid-suits have totally > taken over this country. Every restaurant is now a "bistro", every used > car is now "pre-owned", every trashy apartment is now a "town house" or > a "coach home"...the list goes on and on. They're calling them "apartment homes" over here in the DC suburbs. Perhaps they want to be clear that they're not leasing you an "apartment office" or "apartment storage space". Down with ambiguity! :-) Alexey From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 9 14:39:04 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 12:39:04 -0700 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: References: <44DA1C6D.6090207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608091239040374.1AA8D103@10.0.0.252> "Repurposing"? Feh--you guys'd be roadkill in the costmetics advertising game. "Reapplicationizing" Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 9 14:40:22 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 12:40:22 -0700 Subject: ComputerVision CADDStation tapes now available (sorta) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608091240220908.1AAA03C8@10.0.0.252> On 8/9/2006 at 10:48 AM Al Kossow wrote: >Interesting note, a lot of these tapes have hundreds of 0-length files >on them; these seem to be placed between files with actual data in >them. I have no idea if this was a standard practice (maybe >ComputerVision hadn't heard of "tar" :)). Perhaps nothing more than a double filemark or its equivalent? Very comon in 7- and 9-track tapes. Cheers, Chuck From nico at farumdata.dk Wed Aug 9 14:51:22 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 21:51:22 +0200 Subject: ComputerVision CADDStation tapes now available (sorta) References: <200608091240220908.1AAA03C8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <001301c6bbed$3103e560$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 9:40 PM Subject: Re: ComputerVision CADDStation tapes now available (sorta) > On 8/9/2006 at 10:48 AM Al Kossow wrote: > > >Interesting note, a lot of these tapes have hundreds of 0-length files > >on them; these seem to be placed between files with actual data in > >them. I have no idea if this was a standard practice (maybe > >ComputerVision hadn't heard of "tar" :)). > > Perhaps nothing more than a double filemark or its equivalent? Very comon > in 7- and 9-track tapes. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > The standard for IBM labelled tapes is that there is 1 tapemark between files, and 2 tapemarks to indicate that the last file has been read. As there are two tapemarks between files, how can you then detect end-of-data ? 3 or 4 tapemarks ? Nico From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 9 14:53:23 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 15:53:23 -0400 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <200608090539.BAA29699@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200608090539.BAA29699@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44DA3D33.3050407@neurotica.com> der Mouse wrote: >> Apologies for this, but what sort of politically correct homogenised >> saccharined Americanised word is 'repurposed'? > > I don't see it as any of those. What would you suggest instead? (In > case the meaning really isn't clear to you, to repurpose something is > to use it for a different purpose - different from *what* is generally > indicated by context (most commonly, different from what it is > currently being used for, or from what it was designed for).) > > If you know of a better word for the meaning, I'd love to hear. I don't know about a better word, but the Newtons...even the early ones...make fine PDAs. No "repurposing" required. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 9 15:07:55 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 13:07:55 -0700 Subject: ComputerVision CADDStation tapes now available (sorta) In-Reply-To: <001301c6bbed$3103e560$2101a8c0@finans> References: <200608091240220908.1AAA03C8@10.0.0.252> <001301c6bbed$3103e560$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <200608091307550150.1AC339CA@10.0.0.252> On 8/9/2006 at 9:51 PM Nico de Jong wrote: >The standard for IBM labelled tapes is that there is 1 tapemark between >files, and 2 tapemarks to indicate that the last file has been read. >As there are two tapemarks between files, how can you then detect >end-of-data ? 3 or 4 tapemarks ? Depends on the vendor. Some used more than 2 filemarks. From a hardware (and software) point of view, there's nothing to prevent it. If you think about it, it makes sense. A corrupted filemark will cause a tape drive to skip one more record than requested. A double filemark adds a bit of redundancy. Particularly in tapes, IBM's practices weren't universal; nor, for that matter did everyone adhere to ANSI standards. You can probably still find plenty of old tapes without labels, with strange block sizes, in mixed densities, etc. 200 bpi 7-track EVEN parity tapes were even used at one time (There was no way to write a binary zero character). Tape conversion between vendors used to be a big deal 30+ years ago. Chuck From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 9 15:14:38 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 13:14:38 -0700 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <44DA3D33.3050407@neurotica.com> References: <200608090539.BAA29699@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DA3D33.3050407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44DA422E.90906@dakotacom.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > der Mouse wrote: >>> Apologies for this, but what sort of politically correct homogenised >>> saccharined Americanised word is 'repurposed'? >> I don't see it as any of those. What would you suggest instead? (In >> case the meaning really isn't clear to you, to repurpose something is >> to use it for a different purpose - different from *what* is generally >> indicated by context (most commonly, different from what it is >> currently being used for, or from what it was designed for).) >> >> If you know of a better word for the meaning, I'd love to hear. > > I don't know about a better word, but the Newtons...even the early > ones...make fine PDAs. No "repurposing" required. A bit large to truly be considered "portable". :-( But, I could see replacing my (pen and paper) address book with it. Though it appears not to have much memory (500K?). And, the "fields" in their "Names" application are pretty uninspired... From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 9 15:13:57 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 16:13:57 -0400 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <200608091239040374.1AA8D103@10.0.0.252> References: <200608091239040374.1AA8D103@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608091613.57531.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 09 August 2006 03:39 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > "Repurposing"? > > Feh--you guys'd be roadkill in the costmetics advertising game. > > "Reapplicationizing" Ick. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 9 15:34:04 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 13:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <20060808131055.G47012@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20060809203404.49828.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> > They destroyed most of the assets of Steve Jackson > Games before > they realized that "Gurps Cyberpunk" is a sci-fi > fantasy game. Did Steve Jackson put out the original Ogre game? Duh one with the little cardboard playing pieces (tanks, ogre)? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 9 15:54:32 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 13:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steve Jackson games was Re: End of PeeCees? In-Reply-To: <20060809203404.49828.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> from Chris M at "Aug 9, 6 01:34:04 pm" Message-ID: <200608092054.k79KsWA5013234@floodgap.com> > > They destroyed most of the assets of Steve Jackson > > Games before > > they realized that "Gurps Cyberpunk" is a sci-fi > > fantasy game. > > Did Steve Jackson put out the original Ogre game? Duh > one with the little cardboard playing pieces (tanks, > ogre)? I think that was him, too, yes. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Klein bottle for immediate occupancy; inquire within. ---------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 9 16:03:48 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 17:03:48 -0400 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DA4DB4.2070101@neurotica.com> Scott Quinn wrote: > The second part was the general question, which I guess was a bit too specific. What computers have you come across that are > really neat and why. OK.- System/3{60,70,90,z} is neat for it's processor instruction set, PERQs for the user-microcode. > SGI Origin 2000's are neat for their CRAYlink/NUMAlink interconnect system, AXPs for the PALcode idea (sort of a takeoff of the PERQ). > If you saw a computer that has a serial port implementation that is so elegant that it struck you as a thing of beauty throw that in ... > I'm just interested in getting a feel for what's out there that members feel is neat. I was kind of thinking hardware to start with, > but it could be extended to software. I like the fact that, from the programmer's perspective, plugging boards into a PDP-8 essentially adds device-specific instructions to the CPU. I don't think it's the cleanest or most elegant way of doing things, but I like how different (from today's stuff) it is, and I think it's clever. I like the way the A & X registers work on the CDC 6600 with regard to auto-loading. I like PDP-11s because they have personality and soul. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 9 16:07:07 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 17:07:07 -0400 Subject: Modern Modeming (was Re: Geek-only net) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DA4E7B.6090802@neurotica.com> JP Hindin wrote: > Modems and faxes can be pretty spotty over VoIP - it depends largely on > the carrier you are using and the CODEC involved. Not to mention how the > 'net is behaving on that day. Wow, howdy JP, I didn't know you ran in these circles. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 9 16:14:20 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 17:14:20 -0400 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <44DA422E.90906@dakotacom.net> References: <200608090539.BAA29699@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DA3D33.3050407@neurotica.com> <44DA422E.90906@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44DA502C.10704@neurotica.com> Don wrote: >>>> Apologies for this, but what sort of politically correct homogenised >>>> saccharined Americanised word is 'repurposed'? >>> I don't see it as any of those. What would you suggest instead? (In >>> case the meaning really isn't clear to you, to repurpose something is >>> to use it for a different purpose - different from *what* is generally >>> indicated by context (most commonly, different from what it is >>> currently being used for, or from what it was designed for).) >>> >>> If you know of a better word for the meaning, I'd love to hear. >> >> I don't know about a better word, but the Newtons...even the early >> ones...make fine PDAs. No "repurposing" required. > > A bit large to truly be considered "portable". :-( Yeah, which means it actually has a useful display, rather than the smattering of a few pixels that the Palm and their ilk have. All the world's a trade-off. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 9 16:14:56 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 17:14:56 -0400 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: <44DA4DB4.2070101@neurotica.com> References: <44DA4DB4.2070101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44DA5050.9080807@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > I like PDP-11s because they have personality and soul. *That* is the primary reason I like mainframes. And European cars. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 9 16:33:12 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 14:33:12 -0700 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: <44DA4DB4.2070101@neurotica.com> References: <44DA4DB4.2070101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608091433120669.1B114FE7@10.0.0.252> On 8/9/2006 at 5:03 PM Dave McGuire wrote: >Scott Quinn wrote: >> The second part was the general question, which I guess was a bit too >specific. What computers have you come across that are >> really neat and why. OK.- System/3{60,70,90,z} is neat for it's >processor instruction set, PERQs for the user-microcode. >> SGI Origin 2000's are neat for their CRAYlink/NUMAlink interconnect >system, AXPs for the PALcode idea (sort of a takeoff of the PERQ). I had a blast with the CDC STAR-100. Instructions to do almost any thing you could conceive of an instruction to do. A single instruction to do a character substring search, with both masks and "near miss" operands. BCD arithmetic up to 64K digits. Sparse vectors, 256 64-bit registers...a veritable smorgasbord of instructions, some of which I didn't have the faintest idea of what they might be good for. Did I mention bit-addressability in the case of bit vectors? I once wrote a line editor for use over slow-speed comm lines whose innards consisted of mostly vector instructions. Input and output files were mapped into the 64-bit address space (that's right--other than the file open and close, there are no system I/O calls). Much to my surprise, I found the same editor being used by the ETA personnel 10 years later. I didn't know whether to be pleased or depressed that nothing better had been developed. Given the very slow speed of scalar instructions, you had to be pretty clever to vectorize as much of the code as you could. Serquential vector searches were fastest for most small (< 1000) lists, as was selection sort. The 100A killed off a lot of the more esoteric instructions, sadly--and it was much less fun. Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Wed Aug 9 16:35:00 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 17:35:00 -0400 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <44DA502C.10704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <000e01c6bbfb$aae7ef30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>>> Yeah, which means it actually has a useful display, rather than the smattering of a few pixels that the Palm and their ilk have The original Newton has a screen resolution of 336x240. My brand-new Treo 700p has a resolution of 320x320 -- physically it's smaller but hardly a "smattering of a few pixels." -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire at neurotica.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 5:14 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Newton Don wrote: >>>> Apologies for this, but what sort of politically correct >>>> homogenised saccharined Americanised word is 'repurposed'? >>> I don't see it as any of those. What would you suggest instead? >>> (In case the meaning really isn't clear to you, to repurpose >>> something is to use it for a different purpose - different from >>> *what* is generally indicated by context (most commonly, different >>> from what it is currently being used for, or from what it was >>> designed for).) >>> >>> If you know of a better word for the meaning, I'd love to hear. >> >> I don't know about a better word, but the Newtons...even the early >> ones...make fine PDAs. No "repurposing" required. > > A bit large to truly be considered "portable". :-( Yeah, which means it actually has a useful display, rather than the smattering of a few pixels that the Palm and their ilk have. All the world's a trade-off. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Aug 9 16:43:06 2006 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 22:43:06 +0100 Subject: Mac keyboards (and how processors work) Message-ID: On 9 Aug, 2006, at 11:27, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >>> When you make a *quality* keyboard, the keycaps are shot >>> *twice* during the molding process -- once for the legend >>> and once for the key itself. So, the legend's color is >>> "in the plastic" instead of screened *on* the plastic. >>> >>> Obviously, costs a fair bit more to do things this way. >> >> But who makes them? >> and with no windows ++ keys. > > Dunno -- I was just talking from past manufacturing experience. > The only keyboards that I have which suffer from this > "screened on legends" are laptops. And, I have decided that > laptops are intended to be replaced as often as the OS > is upgraded :-( > >>> Just like equipment cases that re *painted* vs. those >>> where the color is molded into the plastic. >> >> What plastic? Big heavy painted racks on this list. :) > > Many have molded plastic "decorations" attached. My 1962 machine does not have a keyboard or a screen or even a printing terminal. It has a control panel five feet wide and three feet high. It is made of blockboard faced with laminated plastic :-) On the 'how processors work' topic, my machine's documentation describes not just the logic signals but within each gate, how the transistors, diodes, capacitors, resistors, inductors, transformers and delay lines work together to achieve the gate's function. If I need to, I can put a scope probe on any part of the circuit within the logic element. My latest machine is a laptop, a MacBook Pro, which has a keyboard which seems to have two shot moulded keys, the key legends are transparent plastic which is illuminated in low light levels so the legends can be read even when working in pitch black where there is no light pollution. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 9 17:09:13 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 15:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <200608090539.BAA29699@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200608090539.BAA29699@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20060809150825.E20236@shell.lmi.net> > > Apologies for this, but what sort of politically correct homogenised > > saccharined Americanised word is 'repurposed'? On Wed, 9 Aug 2006, der Mouse wrote: > I don't see it as any of those. What would you suggest instead? (In > case the meaning really isn't clear to you, to repurpose something is > to use it for a different purpose - different from *what* is generally > indicated by context (most commonly, different from what it is > currently being used for, or from what it was designed for).) > If you know of a better word for the meaning, I'd love to hear. OK, WHEN did "purpose" become a verb? From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 9 17:10:05 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 18:10:05 -0400 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: <44DA5050.9080807@gmail.com> References: <44DA4DB4.2070101@neurotica.com> <44DA5050.9080807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608091810.05886.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 09 August 2006 17:14, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > > I like PDP-11s because they have personality and soul. > > *That* is the primary reason I like mainframes. And European cars. I hate to break it to you, Sridhar, but your Camry isn't a European car. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 9 17:11:51 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 18:11:51 -0400 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <20060809150825.E20236@shell.lmi.net> References: <200608090539.BAA29699@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060809150825.E20236@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <44DA5DA7.1000907@neurotica.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Apologies for this, but what sort of politically correct homogenised >>> saccharined Americanised word is 'repurposed'? > On Wed, 9 Aug 2006, der Mouse wrote: >> I don't see it as any of those. What would you suggest instead? (In >> case the meaning really isn't clear to you, to repurpose something is >> to use it for a different purpose - different from *what* is generally >> indicated by context (most commonly, different from what it is >> currently being used for, or from what it was designed for).) >> If you know of a better word for the meaning, I'd love to hear. > > OK, > WHEN did "purpose" become a verb? Lots of words are being verbed these days. Hasn't someone texted you about that? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 9 17:16:49 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 15:16:49 -0700 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <20060809150825.E20236@shell.lmi.net> References: <200608090539.BAA29699@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060809150825.E20236@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200608091516490969.1B393FA0@10.0.0.252> On 8/9/2006 at 3:09 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >WHEN did "purpose" become a verb? Probably about the same time that verbing nouns became common practice. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 9 17:16:26 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 18:16:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <20060809150825.E20236@shell.lmi.net> References: <200608090539.BAA29699@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060809150825.E20236@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200608092217.SAA27775@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> Apologies for this, but what sort of [] word is 'repurposed'? >> What would you suggest instead? (In case the meaning really isn't >> clear to you, to repurpose something is to use it for a different >> purpose - [...].) If you know of a better word for the meaning, I'd >> love to hear. > WHEN did "purpose" become a verb? I don't think it has. "Repurpose" is fairly clearly derived from it, but I don't think "purpose", unmodified, has been verbed thereby. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 9 17:18:24 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 18:18:24 -0400 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <44DA5DA7.1000907@neurotica.com> References: <20060809150825.E20236@shell.lmi.net> <44DA5DA7.1000907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608091818.24494.pat@computer-refuge.org> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Apologies for this, but what sort of politically correct homogenised >>> saccharined Americanised word is 'repurposed'? > > On Wed, 9 Aug 2006, der Mouse wrote: >> I don't see it as any of those. What would you suggest instead? (In >> case the meaning really isn't clear to you, to repurpose something is >> to use it for a different purpose - different from *what* is generally >> indicated by context (most commonly, different from what it is >> currently being used for, or from what it was designed for).) >> If you know of a better word for the meaning, I'd love to hear. > > OK, > WHEN did "purpose" become a verb? "Purpose" isn't. "Repurpose" is. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 9 17:42:16 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 16:42:16 -0600 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: <44DA4DB4.2070101@neurotica.com> References: <44DA4DB4.2070101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44DA64C8.5020009@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > I like the fact that, from the programmer's perspective, plugging > boards into a PDP-8 essentially adds device-specific instructions to the > CPU. I don't think it's the cleanest or most elegant way of doing > things, but I like how different (from today's stuff) it is, and I think > it's clever. What I liked about the PDP-8/e was how dense it was, for being made of TTL. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 9 17:33:14 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 23:33:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mac 840AV networking In-Reply-To: <8F2D47FA-58A5-4D22-8EF3-1D4A6F096554@comcast.net> from "CRC" at Aug 8, 6 05:55:34 pm Message-ID: > > > On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 22:59:12 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > AFAIK the signals on the 'mini centronics' connector on the Mac are > > much > > the same as the 'real' AUI interface, with the exception that > > there's a > > 5V power line, not 12V. In which case you can't link it directly to > > a 10 > > base T hub. you need a trasnceriver. > > All my Apple branded AAUI with an RJ45 do 10BASET just fine. The > power supply does not set the interface parameters, but the coupling > transformer. I've 100BASET designs running off 3.3 VDC. Are you telling me that you've linked the 'mini centronics' connector of a Mac to an 10baseT hub with nothing more than a cable (that is, without an external transceiver module). Becasue I don't believe this will work. Of course it's possible to make a 10baseT transceiver that runs on 5V, and Apple did so. And then made a 10base2 one. That is not the problem, unless you want to use a 'normal' trnasceiver, not an Apple AAUI one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 9 17:16:30 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 23:16:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... In-Reply-To: <44D9195D.6000906@dakotacom.net> from "Don" at Aug 8, 6 04:08:13 pm Message-ID: > > Can you recomend any places to start looking (usual disclaimers, of > > course). I collect names of companies that sell useful stuff for > > hacking/restoration. > > I just go to one of the local electronic stores. They have You're lucky to have a local electronics shop, and it sounds like you have more than one. > a wall display of assorted belts, each individually packaged > (to justify the price? :< ). Of course, they have no information > as to *applications* so it is wise to know what you are looking > for before walking in. Again, you're lucky. Over here, there are companies who sell 'belt kits' for particular models of VCR, with no information as to the sizes of the belts each kit contains. Great if you want to fix that machine, not so good if you want a belt for something else. I don't know of any place in London that will let you match up a belt (or who will supply a belt by dimensions). > > FWIW, there's a program in the HP67 Mechanical Engineering Pac (which > > will also run on the HP41 series with a card reader) that calculates belt > > length given the diameters of the pulleys and the coordinates of their > > shafts. It assumes the belt goes round the outside of all the pulleys, it > > gets the wrong answer if one pulley is outside the belt (which would be > > done if that pulley needs to turn the opposite way)[1]. > > The problem with many of these belts is they usually ride in > a groove cut in the circumfrence of the pulleys. It seems > like the depth of that groove is typically half the "diagonal" > thickness of the belt (assuming a square cross section) Sure. But doesn't that imply that the centreline of the belt lies on the circumference of the pulley? Which means that said program would calculate the correct size of belt (assuming it's measured around the centreline). In any case, for the sort of belt we're talking about here, there should be enough 'stretch' to get it to fit. > > So, one more bit of math involved. It's often easiest to bring > an old belt -- even if broken -- since the packages are I've had blets turn to a sticky rubber blob (like the rollers in the other thread), then you can't match it up. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 9 17:25:17 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 23:25:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Truth (was: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: <200608081930.27835.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Aug 8, 6 07:30:27 pm Message-ID: > > If so, often the same sensors (and control unit, at least in part) are used > > to trigger both the injectors and the ignition coils (most modern engines > > don't have an HT distributor, they either have a coil per spark plug, or a > > coil for every pair of plugs with a wasted spark on a plug in a cylinder > > that's at the top of the exhaust stroke, if you see what I mean). > > That one has a distributor, and a coil, which was part of what I checked. It apperas UK and US vehicles are very different, then. Some UK cars still have the distributor cap and rotor arm, often mounted on one end of the camshaft (OHC engine). And a mormal ignition coil. Others have a coil-per-plug or whatevr and no distributor. There's normally a timing sensor on the crankshaft. Often a toothed ring on the crankshaft (or round the flywheel, or...) which causes the sensor to otuput a pulse for every 10 degrees of rotation. The teeth at TDC for each cylinder (that's 2 teeth, 180 degrees apart on a 4 cylinder engine, which most are in the UK) are missing to give a timing reference. The electronic block detects the pulses, interpolates to get the right ignition point, and sends a pulse to the coil I am not sure what the first UK car to do it this way was. Certainly the Austin Montego we had some 20 years ago was like that. > > Do you have any docs at all? The workshop manual shold at least give > > pinouts of the control modules, from which you can deduce the signals, etc. > > I have a really awful Chilton's book for it which covers way too many years to Can you not get the factory manual (be warned, it'll be expensive, but IMHO worth it). I've never had any use for the 3rd party manuals. > > > I have a van sitting out back which has a real problem in that regard, > > > you put it in gear and nothing whatsoever happens as far as any motion is > > > concerned. And it's new enough to have one of those electronic > > > transmissions which I believe got seriously overheated at some point. > > > I'm sure that the fluid that I checked is not supposed to be as black as > > > motor oil turns out to be at times. And either getting that one fixed or > > > even getting one from a > > > > Ouch!. My guess is that you have a major mechancial problem with the > > transmission (burnt clutch plates?), and that the electronics might well > > be fine. > > I'm still quoted $1100 to fix it, so it's been sitting since December or so. If it were mine, I'd find some way to get the transmission out (which is a pain if it's rear wheel drive, agreed), and strip it down myself. It's not _that_ complicated after all... > > > At least the manual for our car does document taking the mechancial side > > of the transmission apart, right down to clutch plates and thrust > > washers, etc. I don't fancy doing it, but I would if necessary. > > I've changed one out so far, in a car that I had, and swore at that point I've removed sevaeral (manual) gearboxes to replace the clutch, etc. Not an easy job, but not hard either. So far I've never had to strip one down, but you know me. I don't replace entire modules in classic computers if they can be repaired, and the same applies to a car. If the transmission ever fails, you can bet I'll be taking it to bits. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 9 17:59:05 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 23:59:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: from "Scott Quinn" at Aug 8, 6 10:22:30 pm Message-ID: > I'm just interested in getting a feel for what's out there that > members feel is neat. I was kind of thinking hardware to start with, > but it could be extended to software. The keyboard on the HP9810 and HP9820. OK, not really a computer (they're proggammable calculators, but hey, they've got a bit-serial 16-bit processor, I/O (HPIB was avalable for the '20, are user programmable, etc). The PCB under the keyboard has spiral tracks under each key, connected by vias. These forma a pair of pulse transformers, with the primaries and secondaries in series, but in antiphase. Thus a pulse through the peimaries produces no output, since the pulses in the secondaries cancel each other out. Pressing a key brings a disk of metal against one side of the PCB, damping that transformer, and the pulse from the other one then appears on the output. The primaries form an X-Y matrix that's scanned by electronic under the keyboard, the output pulses are detected, and the state of the scan counter is then fed to the processor. Actually, I've missed out one detail, there are 2 keys at each location of the matrix with the secondary pairs connected in antiphase. Pressing one key produces a +ve output pulse, the other key a -ve pulse. These pulses are detected by a LM711 comaparator that looks for one polarity of pulse, then the outher (each location in the matrix is thus driven twice in succession). A trivial example. The wiring of the serial port on the Epson HX20. It uses an 8 pin DIN plug. As is well-knonw (>) th 8 pin socket will also take 3, 5 and 7 pin plugs). And all of them give a useful subset of the signals : 3 pin : Ground, TxD, RxD 5 pin : adds RTS and CTA 7 pin : adds DSR and DTR 8 pin : adds CD And the serial port on the Tatung Einstein. It uses the quincuncial 5 pin DIN plug, the one that fits either way up. Turning it over swaps TxD and Rxd, and also RTS and CTS. Oh, and a big raspberry to Acorn for the way they wired the same type of connector on the Beeb. Turning that one over swaps the data nad handshake lines, which is rarely, if ever, helpful Another beautiful design is the I2S Model 70 (and 75) Image processor/display systems. I must dig out the manuals and post the details again. I've already mentioned the PERQ (great CPU!) and the HP9100 (the most elegant piece of electronics I've ever worked on). -tony From spc at conman.org Wed Aug 9 18:08:49 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 19:08:49 -0400 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: <44DA4DB4.2070101@neurotica.com> References: <44DA4DB4.2070101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20060809230849.GE20007@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Dave McGuire once stated: > Scott Quinn wrote: > > The second part was the general question, which I guess was a bit too specific. What computers have you come across that are > > really neat and why. OK.- System/3{60,70,90,z} is neat for it's processor instruction set, PERQs for the user-microcode. > > SGI Origin 2000's are neat for their CRAYlink/NUMAlink interconnect system, AXPs for the PALcode idea (sort of a takeoff of the PERQ). > > If you saw a computer that has a serial port implementation that is so elegant that it struck you as a thing of beauty throw that in ... > > I'm just interested in getting a feel for what's out there that members feel is neat. I was kind of thinking hardware to start with, > > but it could be extended to software. > > I like the fact that, from the programmer's perspective, plugging > boards into a PDP-8 essentially adds device-specific instructions to the > CPU. I don't think it's the cleanest or most elegant way of doing > things, but I like how different (from today's stuff) it is, and I think > it's clever. The Motorola 68k series did something like that. Not every device, but there was a method of extending the instruction set through external devices mapped to certain addresses in "CPU" space. Similar I'm guessing. -spc (I always liked the 68k architecture) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 9 18:22:33 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 19:22:33 -0400 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DA6E39.3090703@neurotica.com> Tony Duell wrote: > The keyboard on the HP9810 and HP9820. OK, not really a computer (they're > proggammable calculators, but hey, they've got a bit-serial 16-bit > processor, I/O (HPIB was avalable for the '20, are user programmable, > etc). The PCB under the keyboard has spiral tracks under each key, > connected by vias. These forma a pair of pulse transformers, with the > primaries and secondaries in series, but in antiphase. Thus a pulse > through the peimaries produces no output, since the pulses in the > secondaries cancel each other out. Pressing a key brings a disk of metal > against one side of the PCB, damping that transformer, and the pulse from > the other one then appears on the output. The primaries form an X-Y > matrix that's scanned by electronic under the keyboard, the output pulses > are detected, and the state of the scan counter is then fed to the > processor. Actually, I've missed out one detail, there are 2 keys at each > location of the matrix with the secondary pairs connected in antiphase. > Pressing one key produces a +ve output pulse, the other key a -ve pulse. > These pulses are detected by a LM711 comaparator that looks for one > polarity of pulse, then the outher (each location in the matrix is thus > driven twice in succession). OMG. That is TOO COOL. It's almost criminal that the suits have taken over HP and ruined it. They came up with SO much amazing stuff over the years. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 9 18:47:46 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 00:47:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: <44DA6E39.3090703@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 9, 6 07:22:33 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > The keyboard on the HP9810 and HP9820. OK, not really a computer (they're [....] > > OMG. That is TOO COOL. I got part-way to working it out by dismantling a machine and testing signals. But not being able to determine the phasing of each transformer, I thoght that the metal disk increased the coupling on the 'top' side of the PCB. Fortunately I read the patent which explained it all. They don't have much of a following, but I think the HP desktop calculators up to about 1977 (that's things like the 9100, 9810, 9820, 9830, 9815, 9825) are very interesting and elegant machines. Maybe they're not computers in the strictest sense, but they're darn close. Totally useless trivial point about the 9810 (and none of the others). It can be claimed to be a 1, 3, 4, 6, 8 or 16 bit machine : 1 bit is the width of the binary ALU path (bit-serial processor) 3 bits is the physical width of user program memory (it's doubled-up in hardware to store 6 bit keycodes) 4 bits ithe width of the BCD ALU path (from the A and T registers and back to the A register) 6 bits is the logical width of user program memory 8 bits is the physical width of user data memory (again doubled-up in hardware) 16 bits is the logical width of user data memory, and also the size of the CPU (shift) registers. > > It's almost criminal that the suits have taken over HP and ruined it. > They came up with SO much amazing stuff over the years. Agreed. Time was when I read about a new HP handheld calculator and I wondered how I'd afford it. Now that worry has been taken away, I don't _want_ it. I made the mistake of buying an HP49G as soon as I saw it. The first ROM versions were so buggy as to be unusable (and to be honest, while later flash upgrades have fixed some bugs, they've also added some), it was mis-advertised, the keyboard is horrible, and so on. I wrote a letter to HP complaining about this, they didn't even bother to reply (and yes, I did include return postage). That is not the attitude I expected from a once-great company. No, I'll stick with my old 67, 41, 71, etc machines. Those work, they behave as advertised. And I can understand them. And that's just calculators. Their test gear was great too. As an example, take a look at the manual for the 5245 counter (the 5243 must be similar, probably others too). Building a decade counter, latch and display (nixie) driver using 8 transistors and no ICs is a major hack IMHO. Every time I read an _old_ HP service manual, I am filled with admiration for the way it was designed and constructed. Alas not any more. Their modern stuff (printers, digital cameras, etc) seems to be cheap and nasty. Probably no worse than anybody elses, but no better either. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 9 19:04:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 17:04:38 -0700 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608091704380717.1B9BF321@10.0.0.252> On 8/10/2006 at 12:47 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Alas not any more. Their modern stuff (printers, digital cameras, etc) >seems to be cheap and nasty. Probably no worse than anybody elses, but no >better either. I sometimes wonder if the batteries in my HP11C will outlast me. Bought the thing when it first came out and, on impulse, about 10 years ago, replaced the batteries--not because they were flat, just thought it would be a good idea. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 9 19:13:38 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 20:13:38 -0400 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DA7A32.1030801@neurotica.com> Tony Duell wrote: > They don't have much of a following, but I think the HP desktop > calculators up to about 1977 (that's things like the 9100, 9810, 9820, > 9830, 9815, 9825) are very interesting and elegant machines. Maybe > they're not computers in the strictest sense, but they're darn close. I have a 9815 and a 9830 in my storage locker, both with power supply problems. I hope to move into a house with more workspace within the next couple of months; when that happens I'll pull them (and lots of other goodies) out and try to bring them back to life. Are schematics around for those machines, do you know? > Totally useless trivial point about the 9810 (and none of the others). It > can be claimed to be a 1, 3, 4, 6, 8 or 16 bit machine : You, sir, are a geek of the very highest order. ;) > Agreed. Time was when I read about a new HP handheld calculator and I > wondered how I'd afford it. Now that worry has been taken away, I don't > _want_ it. I made the mistake of buying an HP49G as soon as I saw it. > The first ROM versions were so buggy as to be unusable (and to be > honest, while later flash upgrades have fixed some bugs, they've also > added some), it was mis-advertised, the keyboard is horrible, and so on. > I wrote a letter to HP complaining about this, they didn't even bother to > reply (and yes, I did include return postage). That is not the attitude I > expected from a once-great company. They didn't even REPLY!?! > No, I'll stick with my old 67, 41, 71, etc machines. Those work, they > behave as advertised. And I can understand them. Yep. I have a 41CX and a 28S on my desk, and a 41CV (with HPIL module and HPIL<->HPIB converter) in my electronics lab. I have a 48SX (I actually have most models of HP handhelds in my collection) and I actually do like it, but it really doesn't see much use. > And that's just calculators. Their test gear was great too. As an > example, take a look at the manual for the 5245 counter (the 5243 must be > similar, probably others too). Building a decade counter, latch and > display (nixie) driver using 8 transistors and no ICs is a major hack > IMHO. Every time I read an _old_ HP service manual, I am filled with > admiration for the way it was designed and constructed. Is that the one that used the cool trick with the neon lamps and the photocells? That's really good stuff. > Alas not any more. Their modern stuff (printers, digital cameras, etc) > seems to be cheap and nasty. Probably no worse than anybody elses, but no > better either. Yep, gone the way of the suit. Quality and innovation are things of the past...along with repeat customers. No modern company will ever have the customer loyalty that HP had for test equipment and DEC had for computers. It is a shame. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 9 19:17:46 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 20:17:46 -0400 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: <44DA6E39.3090703@neurotica.com> References: <44DA6E39.3090703@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > It's almost criminal that the suits have taken over HP and ruined it. > They came up with SO much amazing stuff over the years. Amazing and cool yes, but a really foolish way to do things from just about any engineering standpoint. Back in the 1700s they actually invented something called the "switch", and often made it into a shape that could be pressed, so one bit of metal touches another. Works amazingly well. Cheap and reliable, too. Of course, back then HP (and Tek, and just about everyone else) could get away with over the top wet dream engineering, with all that Cold War era military business. These days, those same keyboard engineers would be flipping burgers after a week of such nonsense. But then, I must admit that often I like the silly, backwards, all-to-clever designs that make their way into vintage electronics. Makes all those 68Ks and PDP-11s look boring... -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 9 19:30:02 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 17:30:02 -0700 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: <44DA7A32.1030801@neurotica.com> References: <44DA7A32.1030801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608091730020064.1BB33168@10.0.0.252> On 8/9/2006 at 8:13 PM Dave McGuire wrote: > Yep, gone the way of the suit. Quality and innovation are things of >the past...along with repeat customers. No modern company will ever >have the customer loyalty that HP had for test equipment and DEC had for >computers. It is a shame. Nope, just reality. Silicon's cheap. And you can pay a Chinese IC designer $28K per year to design whatever your heart desires. Cheers, Chuck From technobug at comcast.net Wed Aug 9 19:56:55 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 17:56:55 -0700 Subject: Mac 840AV networking In-Reply-To: <200608092315.k79NFZ5B083768@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608092315.k79NFZ5B083768@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1253AAB6-628C-40E3-A603-0CF65A4B5954@comcast.net> On d, 9 Aug 2006 23:33:14 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 22:59:12 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk >> (Tony Duell) wrote: >> >>> AFAIK the signals on the 'mini centronics' connector on the Mac are >>> much >>> the same as the 'real' AUI interface, with the exception that >>> there's a >>> 5V power line, not 12V. In which case you can't link it directly to >>> a 10 >>> base T hub. you need a trasnceriver. >> >> All my Apple branded AAUI with an RJ45 do 10BASET just fine. The >> power supply does not set the interface parameters, but the coupling >> transformer. I've 100BASET designs running off 3.3 VDC. > > > Are you telling me that you've linked the 'mini centronics' > connector of > a Mac to an 10baseT hub with nothing more than a cable (that is, > without > an external transceiver module). Becasue I don't believe this will > work. > > Of course it's possible to make a 10baseT transceiver that runs on 5V, > and Apple did so. And then made a 10base2 one. That is not the > problem, > unless you want to use a 'normal' trnasceiver, not an Apple AAUI one. > > -tony Mea culpa - I misread and misspoke... What I understood was that because of the 5VDC power you couldn't link it to a repeater... What I should have said "Apple branded *MAUs* work just fine. However, the port obviously has the signals required to drive an MAU, but they don't meet the specifications of IEEE 802.3 (IIRC section 7). Besides the power supply, the signals will not drive the requisite 50 feet that an IEEE 802.3 AUI is required. Apple and 3rd party all have short (< 30 cm) cables. Perhaps that is why it is termed AAUI. CRC From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 9 21:45:43 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 22:45:43 -0400 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: <200608091810.05886.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <44DA4DB4.2070101@neurotica.com> <44DA5050.9080807@gmail.com> <200608091810.05886.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <44DA9DD7.8020902@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 09 August 2006 17:14, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> I like PDP-11s because they have personality and soul. >> *That* is the primary reason I like mainframes. And European cars. > > I hate to break it to you, Sridhar, but your Camry isn't a European car. :) I drive an Audi A8 4.2 Quattro. Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 9 22:00:06 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 23:00:06 -0400 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: <44DA9DD7.8020902@gmail.com> References: <200608091810.05886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44DA9DD7.8020902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608092300.07018.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 09 August 2006 22:45, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Wednesday 09 August 2006 17:14, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Dave McGuire wrote: > >>> I like PDP-11s because they have personality and soul. > >> > >> *That* is the primary reason I like mainframes. And European cars. > > > > I hate to break it to you, Sridhar, but your Camry isn't a European car. > > :) > > I drive an Audi A8 4.2 Quattro. So you replaced your Camry finally? I'm sorta glad that I replaced mine last year. A (gasp) **new** "BMW" Mini Cooper S. I love that car. It may not be classic, but it's probably more fun, safe, efficient, etc. Oh, and to haul stuff, I've got a converted '89 Checy Van 30 Boxvan. It's amazing the amount of abuse that thing can take... best $1k I ever spent. Of course, its replacement will have a liftgate, which is the one thing which that guy is missing. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 9 22:19:42 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 23:19:42 -0400 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: <200608092300.07018.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200608091810.05886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44DA9DD7.8020902@gmail.com> <200608092300.07018.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <44DAA5CE.5080100@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>>>> I like PDP-11s because they have personality and soul. >>>> *That* is the primary reason I like mainframes. And European cars. >>> I hate to break it to you, Sridhar, but your Camry isn't a European car. >>> :) >> I drive an Audi A8 4.2 Quattro. > > So you replaced your Camry finally? I'm sorta glad that I replaced mine last > year. It's been more than two years. 8-) I just still have a lot of stories involving it, since I drove it for such a long time. My Audi *definitely* has more soul, though. > A (gasp) **new** "BMW" Mini Cooper S. I love that car. It may not be > classic, but it's probably more fun, safe, efficient, etc. That's a nice car. Rides like it's on rails. I test drove the JCW version when it first came out. > Oh, and to haul stuff, I've got a converted '89 Checy Van 30 Boxvan. It's > amazing the amount of abuse that thing can take... best $1k I ever spent. Of > course, its replacement will have a liftgate, which is the one thing which > that guy is missing. My latest toy is a Pinzgauer 712. It takes a beating too. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 9 22:25:42 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 20:25:42 -0700 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <44D9C7D1.11593.1F18AB94@localhost> References: <9CD020BB-DF00-4365-91A4-C9FE1F9039B1@comcast.net> <44D9C7D1.11593.1F18AB94@localhost> Message-ID: <44DAA736.4030205@dakotacom.net> Hans Franke wrote: > Am 8 Aug 2006 23:47 meinte Don: >> CRC wrote: >>> On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:15:18 -0700, Don wrote: >>>> Pulled a Newton (110?) out of the trash today >>>> (complete with power, faxmodem, carrying case, etc.) >>>> Appears to work. > >>>> Can these be repurposed? Or, is it just an oversized, >>>> underpowered "notepad"? > >>> I've used my 120 as a portable terminal. Not too bad if you can get by >>> the handwriting recognition or tippy-tappin on the little graphic >>> keyboard with the provided toothpick. Grrrrr... There is (soon to be past tense!) a graffiti cheat-sheat attached to the lid. Since my Visor uses graffiti, it seemed logical to assume that the same is true on the Newton. So, I have been cursing how piss-poor it's recognizer is! Threw the video tape commercial/introduction into the VCR to watch while preparing dinner... *Ah*! This has a *smarter* recognizer that can apparently recognize disconnected strokes, etc. So, don't draw T's like 7's (graffitit) but, rather, draw the crossbar with a second stroke! Amazing! (of course it has issues with my cursive writing but most PEOPLE have those same issues with it! :>) OK, I will have to reconsider my criticisms... >>> A friend, a number of years back, hacked his box to be a TV remote. This can be done with the Visor -- but kind of clumsy since the IR window is on the *side* on the Visor... >> Can you "install" software (like on a Palm/Visor)? Or, do you >> need to surgical "change it's mind" :> > > It's an open system. just unlike the Palm, it has an OS > worth the name, not just an underpowered bootloader. > > Install the connection software on your PC/Mac (I prefer > an 68k as development platform for the Newt) search the > net, and install whatever you find - and there's quite a > lot to find. Will do. > Maybe first a freeze utility to 'unload' Apps would be a > good first choice - Storage is rare, especialy on the old > ones. But then again, huge (aka 16 MB :) PCMCIA memory > cards aren't expensive anymore. Unlike most other devices, Are there requirements for which types of cards it supports? E.g., I have a spare 20M flash card looking for a use... > where you load and run programms like on a desktop, the > Newt never terminates an application - you install it, it > gets loaded, and it stays loaded and 'running' from there > on. The system is awsome - just not your standard crap. > > Back then it was from outher space, today you might call > it a Widget-Environment with a plugin framework... > > Whatever, don't forget to get the NewtonScript development > tools. Some OO knowledge and a bit learning required, but > it's realy worth. Thanks! I'll start googling. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 9 22:28:34 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 20:28:34 -0700 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <44D9F04B.90906@arachelian.com> References: <44D91B06.4070303@dakotacom.net> <44D9F04B.90906@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44DAA7E2.7070400@dakotacom.net> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Don wrote: >> Pulled a Newton (110?) out of the trash today >> (complete with power, faxmodem, carrying case, etc.) >> Appears to work. >> >> Can these be repurposed? Or, is it just an oversized, >> underpowered "notepad"? >> > They are quite nice, but 120's and 130's have much better handwriting > recognition, and the 2100 is the best/most useful of the Newton line. > But of course, you can't beat free. :-) Yes, as they say, "The price was right" :> > 110's can be quite useful in > various ways, such as a graphics tablet with the right drivers on the > PC/Mac end, or as remote controls, and of course as they're intended: as > PDA's. It would be a realistic (not just a toy) replacement for my pen&paper address book (which always sits in my desk drawer) as it would give me some added flexibility (i.e. search). But, I would have to extend it's current "Names" implementation. And, figure out how to back it all up to a PC/Mac. > Start here: http://www.unna.org/ and http://www.newtontalk.net/ Note > that there is a huge Newton community out there. Thanks! From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 9 22:41:10 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 20:41:10 -0700 Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DAAAD6.8080901@dakotacom.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>> Can you recomend any places to start looking (usual disclaimers, of >>> course). I collect names of companies that sell useful stuff for >>> hacking/restoration. >> I just go to one of the local electronic stores. They have > > You're lucky to have a local electronics shop, and it sounds like you > have more than one. Ha! No, I live in a "backwater" :-( In *that* sense, I *am* lucky to have a local electronics shop! :< There are two, maybe two and a half (or, maybe one and two-halves?) located within a few blocks of each other. But, *combined* they don't amount to a *good* shop. OTOH, one has to be thankful for whatever is available. The supply of belts (and vacuum tubes) was really quite unexpected. But, I can't rely on them for a variety of *components*. Those have to be obtained via mail-order. Which seriously impacts how you do things. Other places that I have lived were more metropolitan and finding disti's with open door policies was pretty easy. >> a wall display of assorted belts, each individually packaged >> (to justify the price? :< ). Of course, they have no information >> as to *applications* so it is wise to know what you are looking >> for before walking in. > > Again, you're lucky. Over here, there are companies who sell 'belt kits' > for particular models of VCR, with no information as to the sizes of the Yes, there are places that will do that. And, most manufacturers will sell kits for not-too-outrageous prices. But, since you usually only have to replace *one* belt (at a time), having to buy a whole set can *appear* costly. Problem is finding out how to contact manufacturers directly to gain access to those things. Again, certain localities are considerably nicer in that regard (e.g., when I lived in Chicagoland, I walked into Jensen and got photocopies of old spec sheets, speaker cabinet plans, etc.) > belts each kit contains. Great if you want to fix that machine, not so > good if you want a belt for something else. I don't know of any place in > London that will let you match up a belt (or who will supply a belt by > dimensions). > >>> FWIW, there's a program in the HP67 Mechanical Engineering Pac (which >>> will also run on the HP41 series with a card reader) that calculates belt >>> length given the diameters of the pulleys and the coordinates of their >>> shafts. It assumes the belt goes round the outside of all the pulleys, it >>> gets the wrong answer if one pulley is outside the belt (which would be >>> done if that pulley needs to turn the opposite way)[1]. >> The problem with many of these belts is they usually ride in >> a groove cut in the circumfrence of the pulleys. It seems >> like the depth of that groove is typically half the "diagonal" >> thickness of the belt (assuming a square cross section) > > Sure. But doesn't that imply that the centreline of the belt lies on the > circumference of the pulley? Which means that said program would > calculate the correct size of belt (assuming it's measured around the > centreline). I'm not sure what the "norm" is for measurement. Note that 2 pulleys of dia's A & B at a center-to-center distance of C could end up using a belt only *slightly* different than pulleys of dia's A' & B' at a distance C'. I.e. matching up belts is not trivial -- each time I have done it, it has been a trial and error process: "How does *this* one look? Any better than that LAST one??" And, of course, when you find the right belt, you buy *two* AND save the packaging of the one belt that you actually *use* (with annotations so you don't go through the same mess next time). > In any case, for the sort of belt we're talking about here, there should > be enough 'stretch' to get it to fit. > >> So, one more bit of math involved. It's often easiest to bring >> an old belt -- even if broken -- since the packages are > > I've had blets turn to a sticky rubber blob (like the rollers in the > other thread), then you can't match it up. I've only seen problems with "rubber feet" -- especially on Sun gear -- disintegrating. And, they end up messier than a wad of chewing gum that has been sitting in the summer Sun for a day... :-( Unfortunately, they are always oddball shapes/sizes so replacement is a chore. And, *never* set a bit of kit on a piece of *furniture* -- lest you later discover a disintegrated foot and find yourself trying to HIDE that fact from The Powers That Be! ;-) From alexeyt at freeshell.org Wed Aug 9 23:46:26 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 04:46:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Mac 840AV networking In-Reply-To: <1253AAB6-628C-40E3-A603-0CF65A4B5954@comcast.net> References: <200608092315.k79NFZ5B083768@dewey.classiccmp.org> <1253AAB6-628C-40E3-A603-0CF65A4B5954@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Aug 2006, CRC wrote: > However, the port obviously has the signals required to drive an MAU, but > they don't meet the specifications of IEEE 802.3 (IIRC section 7). Besides > the power supply, the signals will not drive the requisite 50 feet that an > IEEE 802.3 AUI is required. Apple and 3rd party all have short (< 30 cm) > cables. Perhaps that is why it is termed AAUI. The MAU is not just an amplifier, there is logic there too. Besides the two data pairs, there's a third "control circuit" that propagates things such as link state, collisions, etc. from the MAU to the ethernet card. Alexey From derschjo at msu.edu Wed Aug 9 12:57:06 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Joshua Alexander Dersch) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 13:57:06 -0400 Subject: ComputerVision CADDStation tapes now available (sorta) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah -- the tapes I have that are just rebranded Sun distributions (SunOS and a few others) follow the pattern you mention. However, some of the other tapes that have pure CV stuff (a lot of the CADD stuff) have hundreds of files (one of them has over 800), most of which are between 10 and 100k, all of them separated by these 0-length file marks. I guess I'll know if I've archived these correctly when I get to the point where I can install them :). Thanks, Josh Al Kossow writes: > Interesting note, a lot of these tapes have hundreds of 0-length files > on them; these seem to be placed between files with actual data in > them. I have no idea if this was a standard practice (maybe > ComputerVision hadn't heard of "tar" :)). > > -- > > What you are seeing are file marks, which will return a zero length file if > you just 'dd' them. I haven't looked at CV tapes in a LONG time, but from > memory they are modified SunOS 3 - 4 distributions. What you should find is > a table of contents at the front, some stand-alone utils, a dump file of the > system, and lots of tarballs for the optional parts of the system. > > > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 9 17:31:35 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 18:31:35 -0400 Subject: Newton Message-ID: <0J3R00LYP558E26E@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Newton > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 15:09:13 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> > Apologies for this, but what sort of politically correct homogenised >> > saccharined Americanised word is 'repurposed'? It's double speak! Reused, recycled, reapplied oreve plain english as in: "We found a different application other than designed for.". Right up there with destinated, argh! Allison From dastar at vintagetech.com Wed Aug 9 20:01:13 2006 From: dastar at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 18:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need quantity of old school PC monochrome adaptors ($$$) Message-ID: I'm in need of 10 monochrome adaptor cards for the PC. I'll pay $10 each in any quantity plus shipping. Please send your offerings directly to me. I do not read the list. I need these ASAP. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 10 03:18:35 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 08:18:35 +0000 Subject: Truth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DAEBDB.6090805@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> I have a really awful Chilton's book for it which covers way too many years to > > Can you not get the factory manual (be warned, it'll be expensive, but > IMHO worth it). Not necessarily - I suspect it depends on the production volume of the car in question and therefore whether they've got all the procedures figured out properly. I've got a set of Triumph works manuals here and there's still a pile of errors and omissions in them. That's not to say that 3rd party manuals are any better, just that the official manuals aren't always that good either. To make it on topic, I've found exactly the same thing with classic computers - with something that sold tens of thousands or more the bugs tend to get ironed out; with something that hardly sold at all there can be all sorts of errors. (that seems to be tied to the machine class though - e.g. mainframe designers *know* that they won't sell many, so they set aside time to get the service docs right and that gets reflected in the cost) > I've never had any use for the 3rd party manuals. See above, though. Sometimes I've found them useful as a cross-reference. You're right though in that it's worth having a copy of the official docs if they're available. cheers Jules From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 10 02:53:06 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 09:53:06 +0200 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <44DA422E.90906@dakotacom.net> References: <44DA3D33.3050407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44DB0202.13467.23E3F9D3@localhost> Am 9 Aug 2006 13:14 meinte Don: > Dave McGuire wrote: > > der Mouse wrote: > >>> Apologies for this, but what sort of politically correct homogenised > >>> saccharined Americanised word is 'repurposed'? > >> I don't see it as any of those. What would you suggest instead? (In > >> case the meaning really isn't clear to you, to repurpose something is > >> to use it for a different purpose - different from *what* is generally > >> indicated by context (most commonly, different from what it is > >> currently being used for, or from what it was designed for).) > >> If you know of a better word for the meaning, I'd love to hear. > > I don't know about a better word, but the Newtons...even the early > > ones...make fine PDAs. No "repurposing" required. > A bit large to truly be considered "portable". :-( > But, I could see replacing my (pen and paper) address book > with it. Though it appears not to have much memory (500K?). > And, the "fields" in their "Names" application are pretty > uninspired... Do your own version. Thanks to the awsome concept, you don't have to programm a whole application, just one new form. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 10 02:53:06 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 09:53:06 +0200 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <44DAA736.4030205@dakotacom.net> References: <44D9C7D1.11593.1F18AB94@localhost> Message-ID: <44DB0202.15229.23E3FAFC@localhost> Am 9 Aug 2006 20:25 meinte Don: > Hans Franke wrote: > > Am 8 Aug 2006 23:47 meinte Don: > >> CRC wrote: > >>> On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:15:18 -0700, Don wrote: > >>>> Pulled a Newton (110?) out of the trash today > >>>> (complete with power, faxmodem, carrying case, etc.) > >>>> Appears to work. > >>>> Can these be repurposed? Or, is it just an oversized, > >>>> underpowered "notepad"? > >>> I've used my 120 as a portable terminal. Not too bad if you can get by > >>> the handwriting recognition or tippy-tappin on the little graphic > >>> keyboard with the provided toothpick. > *Ah*! This has a *smarter* recognizer that can > apparently recognize disconnected strokes, etc. > So, don't draw T's like 7's (graffitit) but, rather, > draw the crossbar with a second stroke! > Amazing! (of course it has issues with my cursive > writing but most PEOPLE have those same issues with it! :>) > OK, I will have to reconsider my criticisms... A first step to understand why the Palm was seen as a running Joke in the Newt community. Wait till you get an idea about the application concept. It's more than just a cheap hardware with a boot loader and a few predefined Apps. You'll get a whole application framework in addition to a comfortable OS (it just doesn't reassemble your traditional CP/M alike concept). I think the time wasn't just right. Microsoft might do it in the right pace - and step by step they're coming where the newt has been a long time ago. Of course, with WinCE and .Net, it will be a bulky and resource eating thing, Hunderts of MBytes of RAM and Gigs of ROM needed to do what the newt did in a few 100 K, but hat's why PocketPC will win in the long run ofer all other PDAs arround. In that context it might be usefull to install the latest (aka last) OS release. If it's a 120/130, 2.0 should work. Or look for a Newt2k. A bit bulky, but awsome and fast. > >>> A friend, a number of years back, hacked his box to be a TV remote. > This can be done with the Visor -- but kind of clumsy > since the IR window is on the *side* on the Visor... Better for the Newt - IR is on the top - and it's just cool to flap-open it. There is even a speech recognition software, so grab you Newt and say 'Comuter, give me the news channel'. Not to mention the awsome sound programm wich can even be made to speak. > >> Can you "install" software (like on a Palm/Visor)? Or, do you > >> need to surgical "change it's mind" :> > > Maybe first a freeze utility to 'unload' Apps would be a > > good first choice - Storage is rare, especialy on the old > > ones. But then again, huge (aka 16 MB :) PCMCIA memory > > cards aren't expensive anymore. Unlike most other devices, > Are there requirements for which types of cards it supports? > E.g., I have a spare 20M flash card looking for a use... Perfekt. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Aug 10 04:49:25 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 11:49:25 +0200 Subject: Cleaning microfiche? In-Reply-To: <20060808170900.GA10853@lug-owl.de> References: <200608081640.MAA08007@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060808170900.GA10853@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20060810114925.4baf713a@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 19:09:00 +0200 Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > * water+soap. Needs long watering afterwards to get it all off the > film. Soap is a good start, but use some without perfume etc... I would try with wetting agent as it is used for photographic materials. This weting agent is basicly the same as dishwashing detergent without perfume, color, ... i.e. it is some stuff that lowers the surface tension of water. Wash the oil from the microfiches. Then apply the "Ilford watering procedure" after rinsing the microfiches. The last step is to put the microfiches again in fresh wetting agent for about 30 seconds and let them dry. You may use destiled water for that last step. Do not rinse the microfiches again in water after you soaked them in the wetting agent. The wetting agent helps drying the microfiches and prevents stains from drying water. Put the microfiches in a vertical position for drying so that the water can drip off. Beware of dust while drying! Usually you use wetting agent in a dilution of 1 + 500 for that last step, 1 + 1000 works good in most cases too. You really need only a tiny amout of wetting agent. You may use 1 + 100 to wash of the oil of. Handle the wet microfiches with care. The wet emulsion can be verry sensitive. Depending on the size of the microfiches you may purchase a sheet film developing tank as used in photography. (Look for a Yankee, Doran or Combiplan Tank or a Jobo drum.) This makes it easy to handle the microfiches without the need to touch them. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 10 06:57:03 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 07:57:03 -0400 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: References: <44DA6E39.3090703@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44DB1F0F.7040305@neurotica.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> It's almost criminal that the suits have taken over HP and ruined it. >> They came up with SO much amazing stuff over the years. > > Amazing and cool yes, but a really foolish way to do things from just > about any engineering standpoint. Back in the 1700s they actually > invented something called the "switch", and often made it into a shape > that could be pressed, so one bit of metal touches another. Works > amazingly well. Cheap and reliable, too. Not sure I'd agree on the reliability...I've spilled my fair share of coke into keyboards, and contact-closure keyswitches just don't cut it for me unless they're sealed. I don't really think it's all that bad of an idea. But aside from that, I firmly believe there should be more to designing than just doing the minimum required to get by. There is a certain amount of art involved in what we do. Or, at least, there *was*. Just my opinion of course.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 10 06:59:07 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 07:59:07 -0400 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: <200608091730020064.1BB33168@10.0.0.252> References: <44DA7A32.1030801@neurotica.com> <200608091730020064.1BB33168@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44DB1F8B.9050104@neurotica.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Yep, gone the way of the suit. Quality and innovation are things of >> the past...along with repeat customers. No modern company will ever >> have the customer loyalty that HP had for test equipment and DEC had for >> computers. It is a shame. > > Nope, just reality. Silicon's cheap. And you can pay a Chinese IC > designer $28K per year to design whatever your heart desires. Well if "reality" means "profit at any cost", sure. But as I mentioned in another message, if everything does finally get reduced to that (a point things seem to be approaching very quickly these days), then the world will be a very boring place. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 10 07:00:30 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 08:00:30 -0400 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: <44DA9DD7.8020902@gmail.com> References: <44DA4DB4.2070101@neurotica.com> <44DA5050.9080807@gmail.com> <200608091810.05886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44DA9DD7.8020902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44DB1FDE.2020207@neurotica.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>> I like PDP-11s because they have personality and soul. >>> *That* is the primary reason I like mainframes. And European cars. >> >> I hate to break it to you, Sridhar, but your Camry isn't a European >> car. :) > > I drive an Audi A8 4.2 Quattro. ...and I put an Origin 2000 into the trunk of said Quattro a couple of months ago. That's a damn fine automobile our skinny beige friend has, there. I nearly beat him over the head and took it home. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 10 07:01:29 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 08:01:29 -0400 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: <200608092300.07018.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200608091810.05886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44DA9DD7.8020902@gmail.com> <200608092300.07018.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <44DB2019.7020009@neurotica.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Oh, and to haul stuff, I've got a converted '89 Checy Van 30 Boxvan. It's > amazing the amount of abuse that thing can take... best $1k I ever spent. Of > course, its replacement will have a liftgate, which is the one thing which > that guy is missing. If you're looking to sell it, please let me know! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 10 07:12:35 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 08:12:35 -0400 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <000e01c6bbfb$aae7ef30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000e01c6bbfb$aae7ef30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <44DB22B3.7090807@neurotica.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>>> Yeah, which means it actually has a useful display, rather than the > smattering of a few pixels that the Palm and their ilk have > > The original Newton has a screen resolution of 336x240. My brand-new Treo > 700p has a resolution of 320x320 -- physically it's smaller but hardly a > "smattering of a few pixels." Well it's nice to see that the current Palm technology now has the display resolution of the circa 1993 Newton. ;) [dave ducks] -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From charlesmorris at hughes.net Thu Aug 10 07:52:31 2006 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (charlesmorris at hughes.net) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 12:52:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Newton Message-ID: <3663881.1155214351264.JavaMail.?@fh036.dia.cp.net> ----Original Message---- It's double speak! Reused, recycled, reapplied oreve plain english as in: "We found a different application other than designed for.". Right up there with destinated, argh! Allison --------------------------- Irregardless. :) "The sign said, 'Void where prohibited', so I peed on a police car" -Charles From evan at snarc.net Thu Aug 10 07:55:15 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 08:55:15 -0400 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <44DB22B3.7090807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <001501c6bc7c$39efc7e0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>> Well it's nice to see that the current Palm technology now has the display resolution of the circa 1993 Newton. ;) [dave ducks] Hmm... My 700p is also my camera, MP3 player, cell phone, GPS, and a pretty good PDA too. -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire at neurotica.com] Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 8:13 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Newton Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>>> Yeah, which means it actually has a useful display, rather than >>>>> the > smattering of a few pixels that the Palm and their ilk have > > The original Newton has a screen resolution of 336x240. My brand-new > Treo 700p has a resolution of 320x320 -- physically it's smaller but > hardly a "smattering of a few pixels." Well it's nice to see that the current Palm technology now has the display resolution of the circa 1993 Newton. ;) [dave ducks] -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 10 08:05:54 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 09:05:54 -0400 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: <44DB2019.7020009@neurotica.com> References: <200608091810.05886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44DA9DD7.8020902@gmail.com> <200608092300.07018.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44DB2019.7020009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44DB2F32.8050907@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> Oh, and to haul stuff, I've got a converted '89 Checy Van 30 Boxvan. It's >> amazing the amount of abuse that thing can take... best $1k I ever spent. Of >> course, its replacement will have a liftgate, which is the one thing which >> that guy is missing. > > If you're looking to sell it, please let me know! What happened to your minivan? Are you looking to trade up to something bigger? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 10 08:08:09 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 09:08:09 -0400 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: <44DB1FDE.2020207@neurotica.com> References: <44DA4DB4.2070101@neurotica.com> <44DA5050.9080807@gmail.com> <200608091810.05886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44DA9DD7.8020902@gmail.com> <44DB1FDE.2020207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44DB2FB9.6090303@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>>> I like PDP-11s because they have personality and soul. >>>> *That* is the primary reason I like mainframes. And European cars. >>> I hate to break it to you, Sridhar, but your Camry isn't a European >>> car. :) >> I drive an Audi A8 4.2 Quattro. > > ...and I put an Origin 2000 into the trunk of said Quattro a couple of > months ago. That's a damn fine automobile our skinny beige friend has, > there. I nearly beat him over the head and took it home. =) I was quite surprised that it fit so easily. I believe there were three O200's in there too. Peace... Sridhar From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 10 08:19:31 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 15:19:31 +0200 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <001501c6bc7c$39efc7e0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <44DB22B3.7090807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44DB4E83.2284.250ED1EA@localhost> Am 10 Aug 2006 8:55 meinte Evan Koblentz: > >>> Well it's nice to see that the current Palm technology now has the > display resolution of the circa 1993 Newton. ;) [dave ducks] > Hmm... My 700p is also my camera, MP3 player, cell phone, GPS, and a pretty > good PDA too. Well, MP3 wasn't an issue back then, but My Newt2k did quite well work as camera (Sony-PCMCIA Card) Phone (GSM) and music player, (Not to mention getting Yahoo-Maps from the GPS coordinates feed in from a serial GPS device - beside beeing a real PDA, instead of just a shrinked computer ... Still, I have to admit beeing wrong - when the Newt was discontinued, I predicted that Palm will need 5 years to catch up with the newt - hardwarewise they did, but the OS and the Apps are still nowhere near - And WinCE even worse. H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Aug 10 08:37:01 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 06:37:01 -0700 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <44DB0202.15229.23E3FAFC@localhost> References: <44D9C7D1.11593.1F18AB94@localhost> <44DB0202.15229.23E3FAFC@localhost> Message-ID: <44DB367D.2030804@dakotacom.net> Hans Franke wrote: > Am 9 Aug 2006 20:25 meinte Don: >> Hans Franke wrote: >>> Am 8 Aug 2006 23:47 meinte Don: >> *Ah*! This has a *smarter* recognizer that can >> apparently recognize disconnected strokes, etc. >> So, don't draw T's like 7's (graffitit) but, rather, >> draw the crossbar with a second stroke! > >> Amazing! (of course it has issues with my cursive >> writing but most PEOPLE have those same issues with it! :>) > >> OK, I will have to reconsider my criticisms... > > A first step to understand why the Palm was seen as a > running Joke in the Newt community. Wait till you get > an idea about the application concept. The display is really horrid. A backlight *might* help but the available contrast makes this impractical to read in many lighting conditions (screen is too reflective and contrast too low). My Visor has that beat hands down (and the Visor is pretty bad! :< ) > It's more than just a cheap hardware with a boot loader > and a few predefined Apps. You'll get a whole application > framework in addition to a comfortable OS (it just doesn't > reassemble your traditional CP/M alike concept). I think > the time wasn't just right. A common problem :-( > Microsoft might do it in the > right pace - and step by step they're coming where the newt > has been a long time ago. Of course, with WinCE and .Net, > it will be a bulky and resource eating thing, Hunderts of > MBytes of RAM and Gigs of ROM needed to do what the newt And, you'll need to upgrade the software every 2 years :> > did in a few 100 K, but hat's why PocketPC will win in the > long run ofer all other PDAs arround. Unfortunately, I've not found PDA's to be particularly useful -- i.e. worth *carrying*. But, this little box is almost the same size as my pen&paper address book (I don't rely on a computer to store such things since I don't want to have to boot a computer just to look up a name/address!) so that would be an "appropriate" use. A *decent* calculator wouldn't be bad (though the built-in calculator application is a joke!) Or, maybe write a little Soduku program as a time-waster... > In that context it might be usefull to install the latest > (aka last) OS release. If it's a 120/130, 2.0 should work. 110. I think I can "upgrade" to 1.3 (?) but I haven't done enough research yet. > Or look for a Newt2k. A bit bulky, but awsome and fast. Well, if one falls into my lap for the same price (free), I'll consider it! :> >>>>> A friend, a number of years back, hacked his box to be a TV remote. > >> This can be done with the Visor -- but kind of clumsy >> since the IR window is on the *side* on the Visor... > > Better for the Newt - IR is on the top - and it's just cool > to flap-open it. There is even a speech recognition software, > so grab you Newt and say 'Comuter, give me the news channel'. > Not to mention the awsome sound programm wich can even be > made to speak. Well, you can "speak" with a one-bit D/AC running at ~20Ks/s so that's not particularly impressive :> (e.g., old pinball machines generated speech by bit-banging with a 1MHz 680x). >>>> Can you "install" software (like on a Palm/Visor)? Or, do you >>>> need to surgical "change it's mind" :> > >>> Maybe first a freeze utility to 'unload' Apps would be a >>> good first choice - Storage is rare, especialy on the old >>> ones. But then again, huge (aka 16 MB :) PCMCIA memory >>> cards aren't expensive anymore. Unlike most other devices, > >> Are there requirements for which types of cards it supports? >> E.g., I have a spare 20M flash card looking for a use... > > Perfekt. Installing the card and hitting Extras | Card says "No card installed". So, I will assume it is incompatible (though I found a web page that claimed "Intel Series 2" SRAM cards were compatible -- this is an Intel Series 2 FLASH card :< ) I'll have to check to see if the SRAM memory expansion cards for the HP LJ5L's are *true* PCMCIA cards or just LOOK like them... (I think I have a few 8M cards) More research required! :> From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Aug 10 08:37:35 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 09:37:35 -0400 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <44DB22B3.7090807@neurotica.com> References: <000e01c6bbfb$aae7ef30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <000e01c6bbfb$aae7ef30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060810092815.03d93450@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Dave McGuire may have mentioned these words: >Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>>>> Yeah, which means it actually has a useful display, rather than the > > smattering of a few pixels that the Palm and their ilk have > > > > The original Newton has a screen resolution of 336x240. My brand-new Treo > > 700p has a resolution of 320x320 -- physically it's smaller but hardly a > > "smattering of a few pixels." > > Well it's nice to see that the current Palm technology now has the >display resolution of the circa 1993 Newton. ;) [dave ducks] [ Boot goes whizzing by Dave's head... and up here in Michigan, they're *heavy* winter boots! ;-) ] My nearly 5-year-old Sony Clie has a 480x320 screen w/256K colors. And yes, it still has the Dragonball CPU in it, a smokin' 66Mhz. Now if Radisys would allow an OS-9 port for it... it would be close to *perfect*. Oh, and it makes a *schweet* remote, too - no hacking involved. Assuming I can keep getting batteries for it every 3 years, it'll prolly be ontopic before I "upgrade." ;-) And something tells me I'll *still* be hard-pressed to find a display as nice as what I have now. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From technobug at comcast.net Thu Aug 10 10:44:53 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 08:44:53 -0700 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <200608101301.k7AD1CAl092297@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608101301.k7AD1CAl092297@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <33050009-A316-4187-BD6B-7D0A4748BFA9@comcast.net> > And, figure out how to back it all up to a PC/Mac. > All the backup software is at < http://www.info.apple.com/support/ oldersoftwarelist.html> for both PC and Mac. Works quite well. CRC From jdbryan at acm.org Thu Aug 10 10:59:52 2006 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 11:59:52 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 double integer instructions info Message-ID: <200608101559.k7AFxrE5008151@mail.bcpl.net> I'm working on adding double integer (32-bit) instructions to the HP 1000 simulator under SIMH. The 1000 F-Series computer came standard with these instructions, and I have documentation on the opcodes used. The E-Series did not have them, but there was a "specials group" product -- HP number 93585A -- that added firmware support for these instructions. However, the opcodes were different from the F-Series opcodes to avoid conflict with other E-Series microcode options. Does anyone have information on the opcodes used in the 93585A product? I have found a reference to a manual, HP number 93585-90007, "93585A Double Integer Firmware Installation and Operating Manual," but I cannot locate a copy. -- Dave From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 10 11:16:03 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 12:16:03 -0400 Subject: Truth (was: Hi, I'm new... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608101216.03702.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 09 August 2006 06:25 pm, Tony Duell wrote: <...> > > > Do you have any docs at all? The workshop manual shold at least give > > > pinouts of the control modules, from which you can deduce the signals, > > > etc. > > > > I have a really awful Chilton's book for it which covers way too many > > years to > > Can you not get the factory manual (be warned, it'll be expensive, but > IMHO worth it). I've never had any use for the 3rd party manuals. Can't afford to pursue that at this point in time... > > > > I have a van sitting out back which has a real problem in that > > > > regard, you put it in gear and nothing whatsoever happens as far as > > > > any motion is concerned. And it's new enough to have one of those > > > > electronic transmissions which I believe got seriously overheated at > > > > some point. I'm sure that the fluid that I checked is not supposed to > > > > be as black as motor oil turns out to be at times. And either > > > > getting that one fixed or even getting one from a > > > > > > Ouch!. My guess is that you have a major mechancial problem with the > > > transmission (burnt clutch plates?), and that the electronics might > > > well be fine. > > > > I'm still quoted $1100 to fix it, so it's been sitting since December or > > so. > > If it were mine, I'd find some way to get the transmission out (which is > a pain if it's rear wheel drive, agreed), and strip it down myself. It's > not _that_ complicated after all... I'm really not sure that's a job I'd want to tackle. > > > At least the manual for our car does document taking the mechancial > > > side of the transmission apart, right down to clutch plates and thrust > > > washers, etc. I don't fancy doing it, but I would if necessary. > > > > I've changed one out so far, in a car that I had, and swore at that > > point > > I've removed sevaeral (manual) gearboxes to replace the clutch, etc. Not > an easy job, but not hard either. So far I've never had to strip one > down, but you know me. I don't replace entire modules in classic > computers if they can be repaired, and the same applies to a car. If the > transmission ever fails, you can bet I'll be taking it to bits. My way of dealing with that is going to be either get it repaired somewhere or get another one and swap it out. If I can find one. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 10 14:16:10 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 15:16:10 -0400 Subject: Truth In-Reply-To: <44DAEBDB.6090805@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44DAEBDB.6090805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > To make it on topic, I've found exactly the same thing with classic computers > - with something that sold tens of thousands or more the bugs tend to get > ironed out; with something that hardly sold at all there can be all sorts of > errors. (that seems to be tied to the machine class though - e.g. mainframe > designers *know* that they won't sell many, so they set aside time to get the > service docs right and that gets reflected in the cost) I do not think that is the reason. The engineering process for mainframe computers is far more disciplined, in keeping with the RAS philosophy. Sell one or sell a million - mainframe customers have very strict demands for their systems, and the engineers must adhere. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 10 14:33:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 12:33:40 -0700 Subject: Truth In-Reply-To: References: <44DAEBDB.6090805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200608101233400039.1FCA3247@10.0.0.252> On 8/10/2006 at 3:16 PM William Donzelli wrote: >I do not think that is the reason. The engineering process for >mainframe computers is far more disciplined, in keeping with the RAS >philosophy. Sell one or sell a million - mainframe customers have very >strict demands for their systems, and the engineers must adhere. True, how many microcomputer purchasers develop a benchmark and its performance goals to even qualify a vendor? I'd venture that not many do--yet that was the way business was done in the mainframe world. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 10 15:30:43 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:30:43 -0400 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <001501c6bc7c$39efc7e0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001501c6bc7c$39efc7e0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <44DB9773.8050906@neurotica.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>> Well it's nice to see that the current Palm technology now has the > display resolution of the circa 1993 Newton. ;) [dave ducks] > > Hmm... My 700p is also my camera, MP3 player, cell phone, GPS, and a pretty > good PDA too. B-P ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 10 15:31:30 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:31:30 -0400 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: <44DB2F32.8050907@gmail.com> References: <200608091810.05886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44DA9DD7.8020902@gmail.com> <200608092300.07018.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44DB2019.7020009@neurotica.com> <44DB2F32.8050907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44DB97A2.5000203@neurotica.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Oh, and to haul stuff, I've got a converted '89 Checy Van 30 Boxvan. >>> It's amazing the amount of abuse that thing can take... best $1k I >>> ever spent. Of course, its replacement will have a liftgate, which >>> is the one thing which that guy is missing. >> >> If you're looking to sell it, please let me know! > > What happened to your minivan? Are you looking to trade up to something > bigger? Eventually. With the car off the road at least for a bit longer (need a new alternator) I'm driving the van a lot...I don't expect it to last forever. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From evan at snarc.net Thu Aug 10 15:38:40 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:38:40 -0400 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <44DB9773.8050906@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <000001c6bcbc$f6b83a20$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> B-P? Huh? -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire at neurotica.com] Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 4:31 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Newton Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>> Well it's nice to see that the current Palm technology now has the > display resolution of the circa 1993 Newton. ;) [dave ducks] > > Hmm... My 700p is also my camera, MP3 player, cell phone, GPS, and a > pretty good PDA too. B-P ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Aug 10 15:54:24 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:54:24 -0400 Subject: Computer transports (was: Re: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!)) In-Reply-To: <44DB2019.7020009@neurotica.com> References: <200608092300.07018.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44DB2019.7020009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608101654.24785.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 10 August 2006 08:01, Dave McGuire wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Oh, and to haul stuff, I've got a converted '89 Checy Van 30 > > Boxvan. It's amazing the amount of abuse that thing can take... > > best $1k I ever spent. Of course, its replacement will have a > > liftgate, which is the one thing which that guy is missing. > > If you're looking to sell it, please let me know! If you wanna pay me enough to cover getting myself a new truck with a lift gate (and which has a couple inch taller door), then sure. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 10 17:16:30 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 15:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Truth In-Reply-To: <44DAEBDB.6090805@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44DAEBDB.6090805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20060810150846.R92250@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 10 Aug 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > To make it on topic, I've found exactly the same thing with classic computers > - with something that sold tens of thousands or more the bugs tend to get > ironed out; with something that hardly sold at all there can be all sorts of > errors. (that seems to be tied to the machine class though - e.g. mainframe > designers *know* that they won't sell many, so they set aside time to get the > service docs right and that gets reflected in the cost) A reasonable assumption. BUT,... by that logic, Windoze is bug-free?? > > I've never had any use for the 3rd party manuals. > See above, though. Sometimes I've found them useful as a cross-reference. > You're right though in that it's worth having a copy of the official docs if > they're available. as author of a 3rd party manual, . . . The OEM factory service manuals are absolutely essential as reference materials for professionals. OTOH, if somebody needs to be instructed how to do the work, then a 3rd party manual is also needed, since a good factory service manual assumes a professional level of competence. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred (NIASE cert) cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 9 20:58:37 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 02:58:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: <44DA7A32.1030801@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 9, 6 08:13:38 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > They don't have much of a following, but I think the HP desktop > > calculators up to about 1977 (that's things like the 9100, 9810, 9820, > > 9830, 9815, 9825) are very interesting and elegant machines. Maybe > > they're not computers in the strictest sense, but they're darn close. > > I have a 9815 and a 9830 in my storage locker, both with power supply > problems. I hope to move into a house with more workspace within the Why do you think it's PSU problems? On the 9830, the display will be blank if there's a problem almost anywhere in the machine. In particular, the processor, memory controller, ROM, RAM, display driver and display boards all have to be working correctly. Oh, and the PSU. Even a fault on some of the other boards can mess up the I/O bus and cause the display to be blank. The 9815 is a ltitle more conventional (there's a 6800 microprocessor in there), but even so, the display is driven in software. So problems in the CPU/memory ares could blank the displau (or could cause a line of dashes to appear across the display -- that 'busy' display is hardware-generated). > next couple of months; when that happens I'll pull them (and lots of > other goodies) out and try to bring them back to life. > > Are schematics around for those machines, do you know? Oh yes... But last time I mentioned this I was flamed alive.... Anyway, the site to go to for documentation for larger HP machines (desktop calculators, HP9000s, minis, peripherals, etc) is http://www.hpmseum.net/ . I assume you have a graphical display and can read pdf files, and have a reasonably fast connection. If not, it may be worth going to an internet cafe or something. Either follow the links for the machine you have, or click on the 'documentation' link on the first page. For both of the machines you mention, the HP service manuals are there. Be warned they are boardswapper guides, but I think they include scheamtics of the PSU area. You'll also find 'HPxxxxSchematicsByTonyDuell' (or some name like that) for many of the machines, including the 2 you mention. Those are diagrams I've drawn out from an actual machine. Be warned you'll have to put up with my handwriting (I don't use a CAD system...), that there are very likely to be errors (darn it, I must have drawn out several _thousand_ pages for all the machines, there will be errors). And you might have a different version of the machine. But they should be a start (and I do include everything, not just PSUs). Of course I'd appreciate being told of errors, or different versions. Now for the bit that dras flamage. You can buy a CD-ROM of 'my' diagrams from HPCC. I don't produce this CD-ROM, a friend does. And there have been comments about the wrong file format being used, and the fact that it's not free. I didn't pick the format, he did. So please comment to him, not me, about it. And I don't make a penny from this. All profits go to HPCC. > > Totally useless trivial point about the 9810 (and none of the others). It > > can be claimed to be a 1, 3, 4, 6, 8 or 16 bit machine : > > You, sir, are a geek of the very highest order. ;) Well, I've spent too many late nights looking at the PCBs, looking at schematics, and annotating the CPU miocrocode. > > > Agreed. Time was when I read about a new HP handheld calculator and I > > wondered how I'd afford it. Now that worry has been taken away, I don't > > _want_ it. I made the mistake of buying an HP49G as soon as I saw it. > > The first ROM versions were so buggy as to be unusable (and to be > > honest, while later flash upgrades have fixed some bugs, they've also > > added some), it was mis-advertised, the keyboard is horrible, and so on. > > I wrote a letter to HP complaining about this, they didn't even bother to > > reply (and yes, I did include return postage). That is not the attitude I > > expected from a once-great company. > > They didn't even REPLY!?! Correct. I sent the main letter to ACO (of course). And copies to HP-UK and HP in the States. The last 2 did at least acknowledge it and said I'd be hearing from ACO 'shortly'. I never did. I sent a second letter to ACO only. I never got a reply to that either. Needless to say that has not exactly encouraged me to buy HP products in the future. > > > No, I'll stick with my old 67, 41, 71, etc machines. Those work, they > > behave as advertised. And I can understand them. > > Yep. I have a 41CX and a 28S on my desk, and a 41CV (with HPIL module > and HPIL<->HPIB converter) in my electronics lab. I have a 48SX (I > actually have most models of HP handhelds in my collection) and I > actually do like it, but it really doesn't see much use. I'm not a collector, I don't have many of the handhelds. But I have most of the classic series (I don't have a 70), a few 67s (to me those are Woodstocks, not classics), a couple of 97s, numerous 41s (Cs, CVs, CXs) with modules, HPIL, printers, card readers, etc. a few HP71s with card reader, HPIL, modules, etc And a lot of HPIL peripherals, even the plotter and data logger. An HP75C, HP28C, HP48SX, etc, etc. And of course, as you'd expect, I have service manuals, ROM listings, hacking tools, and the like for them. > > > And that's just calculators. Their test gear was great too. As an > > example, take a look at the manual for the 5245 counter (the 5243 must be > > similar, probably others too). Building a decade counter, latch and > > display (nixie) driver using 8 transistors and no ICs is a major hack > > IMHO. Every time I read an _old_ HP service manual, I am filled with > > admiration for the way it was designed and constructed. > > Is that the one that used the cool trick with the neon lamps and the > photocells? That's really good stuff. That's the one -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 9 21:03:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 03:03:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Aug 9, 6 08:17:46 pm Message-ID: > > > It's almost criminal that the suits have taken over HP and ruined it. > > They came up with SO much amazing stuff over the years. > > Amazing and cool yes, but a really foolish way to do things from just > about any engineering standpoint. Back in the 1700s they actually You seem to think (based on other messages) that it's all about profit. I don't. And we'll never agree on this. Suffice it to say I'd rather pay a few hundred pounds (dollars, whatever) more to get a good, relaible device. > invented something called the "switch", and often made it into a shape > that could be pressed, so one bit of metal touches another. Works > amazingly well. Cheap and reliable, too. Cheap yes. Reliable, I beg to differ. Or perhaps you've never had a dodgy switch contact, a key that doesn't always work, that sort of thing. I assume you also think the Keytronics capacitive keyboard is a daft design. I don't think many will agree with you. If you want a cheap, standard, design, go and get a PC. One of the things I like about classic computers is the ingenious, odd, bits of design you find in them. If you don't, I have to wonder why you bother with this list. > > Of course, back then HP (and Tek, and just about everyone else) could > get away with over the top wet dream engineering, with all that Cold > War era military business. These days, those same keyboard engineers > would be flipping burgers after a week of such nonsense. Which is why I won't buy a modern keyboard, I keep on with the old ones... > > But then, I must admit that often I like the silly, backwards, > all-to-clever designs that make their way into vintage electronics. > Makes all those 68Ks and PDP-11s look boring... Have you ever looked at the design of a PDP11? Try analysing the 11/45 at gate level sometime... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 9 21:13:16 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 03:13:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mac 840AV networking In-Reply-To: from "Alexey Toptygin" at Aug 10, 6 04:46:26 am Message-ID: > The MAU is not just an amplifier, there is logic there too. Besides the > two data pairs, there's a third "control circuit" that propagates things > such as link state, collisions, etc. from the MAU to the ethernet card. For a standard MAU -- that is 10base5 of 10base2 to AUI, there's very little logic in there. I've got a couple built from essentially discrete components with a couple of 10K ECL chips (the signal pairs are essentailly transformer-coupled ECL signals, of course). IIRC those chips are just line drivers and receivers. The 3rd pair (at least in the origianl implementaion) is for collision detect. As I mentioned the other day, the transmitter is a current source that develops a voltage across the termination resistors of the coax cable. If 2 devices transmit at once, you get twice the voltage across the resistor (==between inner and outer of the cable). This is detected and used to provide the collision signal. -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 10 20:11:48 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 01:11:48 +0000 Subject: Truth In-Reply-To: <20060810150846.R92250@shell.lmi.net> References: <44DAEBDB.6090805@yahoo.co.uk> <20060810150846.R92250@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <44DBD954.5090107@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 10 Aug 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: >> To make it on topic, I've found exactly the same thing with classic computers >> - with something that sold tens of thousands or more the bugs tend to get >> ironed out; with something that hardly sold at all there can be all sorts of >> errors. (that seems to be tied to the machine class though - e.g. mainframe >> designers *know* that they won't sell many, so they set aside time to get the >> service docs right and that gets reflected in the cost) > > A reasonable assumption. BUT,... by that logic, Windoze is bug-free?? Not at all - but the context is documentation, and there I think MS tend to do a fairly good job. Actually, the context was in terms of service manuals, so probably MS aren't actually relevant at all :) But whilst on that subject - I suspect MS just don't care; they know exactly how little they can get away with in terms of sorting out problems with their software. If not enough people complain then it doesn't get fixed, simple as that :-( cheers J. From kenziem at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 10 19:19:51 2006 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 20:19:51 -0400 Subject: Fwd: H316 Message-ID: <200608102019.52231.kenziem@sympatico.ca> I thought I'd share this link, ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- A year or so ago, I swapped e-mails with a fellow in Germany who has a Honeywell H316 minicomputer. I had mentioned on alt.folklore.computers (AFC) that I had used these machines and he contacted me. A couple of days ago on AFC he pointed out that there is an H316 on eBay, http://cgi.ebay.de/Vintage-Honeywell-316-computer-like-Kitchen-Computer_W0QQi temZ290016057113QQihZ019QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWD2VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (hope that URL works - I cut and pasted; or you could just search for H316 Honeywell). Anyway, I had a look and it is indeed the ones I used while I was at a research lab in Halifax. Two things told me it was the same machine: first was the accessory drawer (rack mount equipment) with some large connectors and analogue to digital input connections (listed as A/D converter on eBay page). Second was a wooden box (Hardware lot #4) with a complete set of spare CPU boards. I can't believe anyone else would make an ugly wooden box like that. We has massive spares because the system went to sea and if it went down you had to fix it. The system is in a small town near Halifax. No way I have the room to store the H316 nor could I justify paying to have it shipped to Ottawa. I did save copies of the pictures, something I never had. Anyway, seeing that sure brought back some memories. Sigh! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 10 19:36:41 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 17:36:41 -0700 Subject: Fwd: H316 In-Reply-To: <200608102019.52231.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <200608102019.52231.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200608101736410581.20DF9DE6@10.0.0.252> Here's a tinyrl for the auction: http://tinyurl.com/mdmzo From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 10 19:39:45 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 19:39:45 -0500 Subject: H316 References: <200608102019.52231.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <00fc01c6bcde$a626cc80$6700a8c0@BILLING> The seller says he reduced the reserve because he was quoted $1300 for shipping. I suspect that means he doesn't realize just how much that system, in that condition, with all those docs and spares - is going to go for. I'm betting $1300 will be a small percentage of the final price. Jay From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Aug 10 20:59:36 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 18:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? Message-ID: I was wondering if there's anyone else out there interested in someday building a Magic-1 and/or D16 homebrewed CPU computers. If so, I'd like to organize a group buy for some of the harder to source parts. Specifically, the 74F382 and probably 74F381. My favorite chip broker has a $50 minimum order. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Aug 10 21:09:07 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 22:09:07 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 double integer instructions info References: <200608101559.k7AFxrE5008151@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <000b01c6bceb$21f10d60$0100a8c0@screamer> Virtually *every* HP21MX, 'E-series' machine will have the FFT microcode that implements several long integer formats (2 and 3 word). ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. David Bryan" To: "Classic Computing List" Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 11:59 AM Subject: HP 1000 double integer instructions info > I'm working on adding double integer (32-bit) instructions to the HP 1000 > simulator under SIMH. The 1000 F-Series computer came standard with these > instructions, and I have documentation on the opcodes used. The E-Series > did not have them, but there was a "specials group" product -- HP number > 93585A -- that added firmware support for these instructions. However, > the > opcodes were different from the F-Series opcodes to avoid conflict with > other E-Series microcode options. > > Does anyone have information on the opcodes used in the 93585A product? > > I have found a reference to a manual, HP number 93585-90007, "93585A > Double > Integer Firmware Installation and Operating Manual," but I cannot locate a > copy. > > -- Dave > > From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Aug 10 21:31:10 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 19:31:10 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DBEBEE.4030105@dakotacom.net> David Griffith wrote: > I was wondering if there's anyone else out there interested in someday > building a Magic-1 and/or D16 homebrewed CPU computers. If so, I'd like > to organize a group buy for some of the harder to source parts. > Specifically, the 74F382 and probably 74F381. My favorite chip broker has > a $50 minimum order. Have you verified they are in stock? E.g., Digikey lists both parts -- though no stock-on-hand -- and has a $25 minimum (and *no* minimum if you are willing to throw an extra $5 service charge). I think they lit one part at $0.70 and $2.30 (I assume you need four, 4 bit slices?) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Aug 10 21:35:15 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 19:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DBEBEE.4030105@dakotacom.net> References: <44DBEBEE.4030105@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Aug 2006, Don wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > > I was wondering if there's anyone else out there interested in someday > > building a Magic-1 and/or D16 homebrewed CPU computers. If so, I'd like > > to organize a group buy for some of the harder to source parts. > > Specifically, the 74F382 and probably 74F381. My favorite chip broker has > > a $50 minimum order. > > Have you verified they are in stock? E.g., Digikey lists both > parts -- though no stock-on-hand -- and has a $25 minimum > (and *no* minimum if you are willing to throw an extra $5 > service charge). > > I think they lit one part at $0.70 and $2.30 (I assume you need > four, 4 bit slices?) The no-stock-on-hand part got me confuzzled. What exactly does that mean? Wait a bit for it to get in stock or "who knows when they'll have it?"? The Magic-1 requires three 74F381s and two 74F382s. Grr! I just sent off an order to Digikey yesterday! -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From Steve at OceanRobots.net Thu Aug 10 21:38:26 2006 From: Steve at OceanRobots.net (Steve Stutman) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 22:38:26 -0400 Subject: Thinking Machines DataVault Video Message-ID: <44DBEDA2.4010409@OceanRobots.net> Hi, Researching the early history of RAID. Thinking Machines announced a product called Datavault circa 1987; it was shipped shortly after. A training video was made showing operation of the Datavault. If anyone has it, I'd like to buy. Please contact me off-list. Thanks, Steve Boston From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Aug 10 22:19:50 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 20:19:50 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: References: <44DBEBEE.4030105@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44DBF756.3040409@dakotacom.net> David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 10 Aug 2006, Don wrote: > >> David Griffith wrote: >>> I was wondering if there's anyone else out there interested in someday >>> building a Magic-1 and/or D16 homebrewed CPU computers. If so, I'd like >>> to organize a group buy for some of the harder to source parts. >>> Specifically, the 74F382 and probably 74F381. My favorite chip broker has >>> a $50 minimum order. >> Have you verified they are in stock? E.g., Digikey lists both >> parts -- though no stock-on-hand -- and has a $25 minimum >> (and *no* minimum if you are willing to throw an extra $5 >> service charge). >> >> I think they lit one part at $0.70 and $2.30 (I assume you need >> four, 4 bit slices?) > > The no-stock-on-hand part got me confuzzled. What exactly does that mean? > Wait a bit for it to get in stock or "who knows when they'll have it?"? Well, that's subject to interpretation! :> On some parts, it means, "We're all out, awaiting a new shipment". On other parts it means, "Yeah, somebody told us about this part number but we've never actually bought any..." > The Magic-1 requires three 74F381s and two 74F382s. > > Grr! I just sent off an order to Digikey yesterday! > > From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Aug 10 22:20:43 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 20:20:43 -0700 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <33050009-A316-4187-BD6B-7D0A4748BFA9@comcast.net> References: <200608101301.k7AD1CAl092297@dewey.classiccmp.org> <33050009-A316-4187-BD6B-7D0A4748BFA9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <44DBF78B.2090700@dakotacom.net> CRC wrote: > >> And, figure out how to back it all up to a PC/Mac. >> > > All the backup software is at < > http://www.info.apple.com/support/oldersoftwarelist.html> for both PC > and Mac. Works quite well. Thanks, Claude! I'll start poking around their site... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 10 22:43:23 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 21:43:23 -0600 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DBFCDB.8020906@jetnet.ab.ca> David Griffith wrote: > I was wondering if there's anyone else out there interested in someday > building a Magic-1 and/or D16 homebrewed CPU computers. If so, I'd like > to organize a group buy for some of the harder to source parts. > Specifically, the 74F382 and probably 74F381. My favorite chip broker has > a $50 minimum order. > Not me, I am going for a 2901(A) cpu design. Most designs I did still use the 74LS181. PS... Upgrade now to 12/24 bits forget your old 8080 and get with the latest in 70's technology. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 10 22:57:37 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 23:57:37 -0400 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: <44DB1F0F.7040305@neurotica.com> References: <44DA6E39.3090703@neurotica.com> <44DB1F0F.7040305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Not sure I'd agree on the reliability...I've spilled my fair share of > coke into keyboards, and contact-closure keyswitches just don't cut it > for me unless they're sealed. You can make switches that are cheap and nasty, and you can make switches that will last 100 years - and everything in between. If you want a fair comparison, match the HP keyboard against a quality "mechanical switch" keyboard, not a Chinese piece of crap. Lets face it, HP stuff of that era was pretty much the pinnacle of engineering. > But aside from that, I firmly believe there should be more to > designing than just doing the minimum required to get by. There is a > certain amount of art involved in what we do. Yes, there is (I have trouble explaining this to some artist friends). > Or, at least, there *was*. It is a blurred line, that of marketting, economics, and engineering. Certainly there are still plenty of products that have much more than the minimum to get buy - high end sports cars are a good non-computer example. These things, however, are a much smaller share of the global market these days than they were in the past. With the end of the Cold War and the increase in Asian production, it is getting extremely difficult to justify going over the minimum in a design - for the most part that is just wasting money. Shareholders do not like that. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 10 23:37:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 21:37:58 -0700 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: References: <44DA6E39.3090703@neurotica.com> <44DB1F0F.7040305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608102137580392.21BC823E@10.0.0.252> On 8/10/2006 at 11:57 PM William Donzelli wrote: >You can make switches that are cheap and nasty, and you can make >switches that will last 100 years - and everything in between. If you >want a fair comparison, match the HP keyboard against a quality >"mechanical switch" keyboard, not a Chinese piece of crap. Lets face >it, HP stuff of that era was pretty much the pinnacle of engineering. Was the HP keyboard really that good, or merely clever? For example, at that same time, keyboards were using individual Hall effect switches, sealed reed switches and wiping-contact enclosed switches. To my eye, the HP keyboard looks like a clever way to make a keyboard on the cheap. Cheers, Chuck From sieler at allegro.com Thu Aug 10 21:22:30 2006 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 19:22:30 -0700 Subject: Looking for se-scsi for my hp-3000 In-Reply-To: <"a0623090ac0fe64d53731(a)(091)157.178.124.226(093)*"@MHS> References: <69da5c69e05f4838a1055a28f299d781@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <44DB8776.21514.588F71A@localhost> Re: > I'm looking for inexpensive se scsi devices that I can attach to my > hp-3000/922 system. In particular, I am looking for > disc and dds drives. eBay. BUT ... be careful ... depending upon the release of MPE/iX you have, you may get problems if you attach too large a disk (capacity-wise) to your 3000. Easiest recommendation: logon, and do: print iodfault.pub.sys scroll down to the disk drive section ... what's the largest drive they mention? Don't exceed that size. A handy rule-of-thumb: most Seagate SCSI drives with model numbers ending in "N" will (a) work and (b) are likely to be listed in the IODFAULT file. Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Aug 11 00:26:23 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 22:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DBF756.3040409@dakotacom.net> References: <44DBEBEE.4030105@dakotacom.net> <44DBF756.3040409@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Aug 2006, Don wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > > On Thu, 10 Aug 2006, Don wrote: > > > > The no-stock-on-hand part got me confuzzled. What exactly does that mean? > > Wait a bit for it to get in stock or "who knows when they'll have it?"? > > Well, that's subject to interpretation! :> > On some parts, it means, "We're all out, awaiting a new > shipment". On other parts it means, "Yeah, somebody told > us about this part number but we've never actually bought any..." I used the online chat thingy hoping I could add some to my order and they told me that there's a few hundred or so minimum order on those. Luckily, the 84F381 is still available from JDR. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 11 00:38:22 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 23:38:22 -0600 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: References: <44DBEBEE.4030105@dakotacom.net> <44DBF756.3040409@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44DC17CE.40603@jetnet.ab.ca> David Griffith wrote: > I used the online chat thingy hoping I could add some to my order and they > told me that there's a few hundred or so minimum order on those. > Luckily, the 84F381 is still available from JDR. Umm 74F382's are needed too! > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Aug 11 00:57:12 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 22:57:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DC17CE.40603@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <44DBEBEE.4030105@dakotacom.net> <44DBF756.3040409@dakotacom.net> <44DC17CE.40603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Aug 2006, woodelf wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > > > I used the online chat thingy hoping I could add some to my order and they > > told me that there's a few hundred or so minimum order on those. > > Luckily, the 84F381 is still available from JDR. > > Umm 74F382's are needed too! I sent in a note the Special Order People at JDR about that. I'll pass along what I learn as soon as I learn it. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Fri Aug 11 03:58:50 2006 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:58:50 +0200 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: References: <44DBEBEE.4030105@dakotacom.net> <44DBF756.3040409@dakotacom.net> <44DC17CE.40603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44DC46CA.1040806@iais.fraunhofer.de> David Griffith schrieb: > On Thu, 10 Aug 2006, woodelf wrote: > > >> David Griffith wrote: >> >> >>> I used the online chat thingy hoping I could add some to my order and they >>> told me that there's a few hundred or so minimum order on those. >>> Luckily, the 84F381 is still available from JDR. >>> >> Umm 74F382's are needed too! >> Th F381 is avavailable from Unicorn Electronics, the F382 probably not. But the datasheet shows the detailed logic schematic, so it could easily be emulated with a cheap CPLD (maybe even the complete 381/382 ALU core will fit into a single CPLD), and maybe the F382 even fits into a GAL circuit. CPLD might be a better choice for speed reasons, obviously. -- Holger Veit From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Fri Aug 11 04:02:43 2006 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:02:43 +0200 Subject: HP 1000 double integer instructions info In-Reply-To: <200608101559.k7AFxrE5008151@mail.bcpl.net> References: <200608101559.k7AFxrE5008151@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <44DC47B3.4070206@iais.fraunhofer.de> J. David Bryan schrieb: > I'm working on adding double integer (32-bit) instructions to the HP 1000 > simulator under SIMH. The 1000 F-Series computer came standard with these > instructions, and I have documentation on the opcodes used. The E-Series > did not have them, but there was a "specials group" product -- HP number > 93585A -- that added firmware support for these instructions. However, the > opcodes were different from the F-Series opcodes to avoid conflict with > other E-Series microcode options. > > Does anyone have information on the opcodes used in the 93585A product? There is an opcode list in the appendix of the MACRO-1000 assembler manual. This manual is donloadable from the RTE section at HP. -- Holger Veit From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Aug 11 04:20:39 2006 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:20:39 +0200 Subject: Mac 840AV networking Message-ID: <20060811092039.242620@gmx.net> Don wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On Aug 7 2006, 17:10, Don wrote: >> >>> The Asante box has an RJ45 on the rear. The cable that >>> mates to the network connector on the 840AV has that >>> funky mini-centronics on one end and an RJ45 *plug* >>> on the other. >> >> I have a few of those. No, sorry, the RJ45 isn't a 10baseT connection. >> It's more like an AUI connection, but with a different connector. > > So, it was just an unfortunate choice of connector > (for the end that receives the cable from the AAUI) > on Asante's part. > > Sheesh! Even more unfortunate since Sun once used that same type of connector (I can't say whether it was the same size, never compared them) on one of their SBus networking cards. It came with two adaptor cables, one with a 15pin Sub-D connector (AUI) and one with a RJ45 plug and a gender changer (two RJ45 jacks back-to-back), so it obviously could have had both signal sets on the mini jack, or selected between them by sensing a jumper in the plug. Mix the two concepts up and I don't wanna know where it ends... -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! Ideal f?r Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 11 07:44:18 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:44:18 -0400 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <000001c6bcbc$f6b83a20$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000001c6bcbc$f6b83a20$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <44DC7BA2.6010701@neurotica.com> It's the snazzy "I'm sticking my tongue out at you" emoticon. Sigh, Palm users. ;) [dave ducks, again!] -Dave Evan Koblentz wrote: > B-P? Huh? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire at neurotica.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 4:31 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Newton > > Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>>> Well it's nice to see that the current Palm technology now has the >> display resolution of the circa 1993 Newton. ;) [dave ducks] >> >> Hmm... My 700p is also my camera, MP3 player, cell phone, GPS, and a >> pretty good PDA too. > > B-P > > ;) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Cape Coral, FL > > -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 11 07:57:45 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:57:45 -0400 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <44DC7BA2.6010701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <000f01c6bd45$bdb5d000$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I get it now, someone wrote to me off-list ... anyway if you really want to debate PDAs then let's start the conversation in 1975, not 1993 (http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm ... there are some updates that I haven't had time to make yet.) - Evan (a.k.a. the Evil Top Poster) -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire at neurotica.com] Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 8:44 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Newton It's the snazzy "I'm sticking my tongue out at you" emoticon. Sigh, Palm users. ;) [dave ducks, again!] -Dave Evan Koblentz wrote: > B-P? Huh? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire at neurotica.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 4:31 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Newton > > Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>>> Well it's nice to see that the current Palm technology now has the >> display resolution of the circa 1993 Newton. ;) [dave ducks] >> >> Hmm... My 700p is also my camera, MP3 player, cell phone, GPS, and a >> pretty good PDA too. > > B-P > > ;) > > -Dave From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Fri Aug 11 08:44:34 2006 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:44:34 -0500 Subject: Fwd: H316 In-Reply-To: <200608101736410581.20DF9DE6@10.0.0.252> References: <200608102019.52231.kenziem@sympatico.ca> <200608101736410581.20DF9DE6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060811134434.GA26269@RawFedDogs.net> On Thu, Aug 10, 2006 at 05:36:41PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Here's a tinyrl for the auction: > > http://tinyurl.com/mdmzo Or, a direct URL that's not much larger is: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290016057113 Okay, so it's a little over twice as large as the tinyurl, but still much smaller than the original. Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Aug 11 09:32:43 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:32:43 -0700 Subject: Source for Ethernet AUI/TP tranceivers? Message-ID: <1155306763.44dc950bbbea6@webmail.secure-wi.com> I managed to hack a Western Digital Ethernet card onto my PCjr and I'm pretty happy about it. Using a packet driver and my own UDP implementation I can get 24KB/sec off of the machine with UDP checksums, and about 39KB/sec with UDP checksums turned off. The bad news is that I have a few more of these cards but the twisted pair connector is designed for LattisNet. LattisNet is a precursor to the standard Ethernet over twisted pair and it is supposed to be close, but my hubs aren't buying it. The cards have AUI adapters and I was lucky enough to have exactly 1 CentreCom 210 which works fine. I need more though - like about 10. They're on eBay, but buying them onesy-twosy will bankrupt me on shipping. Does anybody have a few they want to unload, or know of a good seller? Also, are all AUI/TP tranceivers equal or should I be looking for something better? Thanks, Mike From jdbryan at acm.org Fri Aug 11 09:44:47 2006 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:44:47 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 double integer instructions info In-Reply-To: <000b01c6bceb$21f10d60$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <200608111444.k7BEimf2029796@mail.bcpl.net> On 10 Aug 2006 at 22:09, Bob Shannon wrote: > Virtually *every* HP21MX, 'E-series' machine will have the FFT microcode > that implements several long integer formats (2 and 3 word). "FFT" = "Fast Fourier Transform?" I'm unfamiliar with that product, and I can't find it in any of the 1000 MEF ordering guides that I have. Do you have a part number? Are you possibly thinking of "FFP" = "Fast FORTRAN Processor?" That was a common microcode option that added two- and three-word floating-point instructions, but no integer instructions. -- Dave From jdbryan at acm.org Fri Aug 11 10:08:46 2006 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:08:46 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 double integer instructions info In-Reply-To: <44DC47B3.4070206@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <200608101559.k7AFxrE5008151@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <200608111508.k7BF8ocF000962@mail.bcpl.net> On 11 Aug 2006 at 11:02, Holger Veit wrote: > There is an opcode list in the appendix of the MACRO-1000 assembler > manual. I hadn't thought to look there. Thanks! Appendix C, "HP 1000 Computer Instruction Set," lists the double integer instructions for the E-Series as in the range 105320-105337, which are the opcodes for the SIS firmware on the F-Series. Seems reasonable. However, the first page of that appendix states, "Special or custom firmware (for example, double integer and third-party firmware) is not included in table C-1." So I'm unsure of the origin of those opcodes. The reference to the "specials" product 93585A came in a "Real-Time Interface" (an Interex publication) article from January 1994, written by Esther Heller and Don Pottenger of HP DSD. The date of the MACRO/1000 manual is December 1992. So I guess that the manual is giving the opcodes of the 93585A microcode, even though it states that it isn't. If anyone has any corroborating evidence, perhaps from an old HP buying guide, I'd feel more confident. -- Dave From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Aug 11 11:24:58 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:24:58 -0500 Subject: Source for Ethernet AUI/TP tranceivers? In-Reply-To: <1155306763.44dc950bbbea6@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <200608111528.k7BFSCA7001734@monisys.caonisys.ca> > I managed to hack a Western Digital Ethernet card onto my PCjr and I'm pretty > happy about it. Using a packet driver and my own UDP implementation I can get > 24KB/sec off of the machine with UDP checksums, and about 39KB/sec with UDP > checksums turned off. > > The bad news is that I have a few more of these cards but the twisted pair > connector is designed for LattisNet. LattisNet is a precursor to the standard > Ethernet over twisted pair and it is supposed to be close, but my hubs aren't > buying it. > > The cards have AUI adapters and I was lucky enough to have exactly 1 CentreCom > 210 which works fine. I need more though - like about 10. They're on eBay, > but buying them onesy-twosy will bankrupt me on shipping. > > Does anybody have a few they want to unload, or know of a good seller? Also, > are all AUI/TP tranceivers equal or should I be looking for something better? Hi Mike, I have Qty-10 of: Cabletron Systems TPT-2 AUI/TP transceivers These are flat boxes (approx 6" x 4.5" x 1") which have a DB-15 AUI connector on one end, and an RJ-45 connector on the other. Never used them, got them with a load of other stuff, and don't really know anything more about them (like if they work or not). Cosmetically they are in excellent condition. If these are of any interest to you, let me know - yours for the cost of getting them to wherever you are - currently located in Ottawa, Ontario Canada. I can send a photo if you like. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri Aug 11 10:29:32 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:29:32 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DC46CA.1040806@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <44DBEBEE.4030105@dakotacom.net> <44DBF756.3040409@dakotacom.net> <44DC17CE.40603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060811112702.03dbcd10@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Holger Veit may have mentioned these words: >David Griffith schrieb: >>On Thu, 10 Aug 2006, woodelf wrote: >> >> >>>David Griffith wrote: >>> >>> >>>>I used the online chat thingy hoping I could add some to my order and they >>>>told me that there's a few hundred or so minimum order on those. >>>>Luckily, the 84F381 is still available from JDR. >>>> >>>Umm 74F382's are needed too! >>> >Th F381 is avavailable from Unicorn Electronics, the F382 probably not. I just checked - the F382 *is* in stock at Mouser Electronics, but it ain't cheap - $8.19 each in quantities less than 25. $6.83 for 25+. =-= At least I *assume* that's expensive. Maybe that's one helluva deal - I've never used these critters... =-= HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Aug 11 10:52:49 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:52:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Source for Ethernet AUI/TP tranceivers? In-Reply-To: <200608111528.k7BFSCA7001734@monisys.caonisys.ca> References: <200608111528.k7BFSCA7001734@monisys.caonisys.ca> Message-ID: <200608111557.LAA29994@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I have Qty-10 of: > Cabletron Systems TPT-2 AUI/TP transceivers To anyone considering these-- beware that, even if they work exactly as they were built to, they may not work for you. I once got a bunch of boxes which are approximately as Dave describes, but which dated back to before the 10baseT standards stabilized. They would work fine when connected to one another via a crossed cable, but would not work with any other 10baseT hardware I tried them with - typical symptom is a link light which is glowing faintly, and no traffic making it through. Now, it may be that Dave's transceivers do work with modern equipment. But it also might be that they don't. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Aug 11 11:57:16 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:57:16 -0500 Subject: Slick Bits in Computers (WAS VAXen Rule!) Message-ID: > I assume you also think the Keytronics capacitive keyboard is a daft >design. I don't think many will agree with you. The TI Professional almost-IBM-PC (in some ways better) used a Hall-effect keyboard. Probably more expensive than the capacitive/inductive keyboards, but most likely the ultimate in reliability. Better layout than the original PC keyboard, too. There have to be some more designs that were so elegant or well-done that you stepped back to admire them. What were they? From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Aug 11 12:03:50 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:03:50 -0500 Subject: Group buy for homebrew CPU Message-ID: Wodelf explicitly implied >PS... Upgrade now to 12/24 bits forget your old 8080 and get with the latest >in 70's technology. Why mess with the low-end mini stuff? Build something with style, power, and 36-bits. Or, be unconventional and do 37 or some other prime number. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 11 12:15:16 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:15:16 -0700 Subject: So who ended up with the PERQ? Message-ID: It was at $1000 as of yesterday afternoon, and haven't heard a peep since. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 11 12:25:43 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:25:43 -0600 Subject: Group buy for homebrew CPU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DCBD97.5000300@jetnet.ab.ca> Scott Quinn wrote: > Wodelf explicitly implied > Why mess with the low-end mini stuff? Build something with style, power, and 36-bits. Mosty because I want to keep it simple. One PCB for the control logic and two PCBS's for the DATA PATH. That leaves using 4 bit slice chips a 24/32/40 bit word length. 24 bits keeps it in the small computer - large process controler rather than a main frame style of computer. > Or, be unconventional and do 37 or some other prime number. I'd like to do '42' but that number was already taken by the SI-FI guys. I still would like someday to build a trinary computer -1,0,+1 as a real system. From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 11 12:31:20 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:31:20 -0400 Subject: Group buy for homebrew CPU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DCBEE8.9060904@gmail.com> Scott Quinn wrote: > Wodelf explicitly implied > >> PS... Upgrade now to 12/24 bits forget your old 8080 and get with the latest >> in 70's technology. > > Why mess with the low-end mini stuff? Build something with style, power, and 36-bits. > > Or, be unconventional and do 37 or some other prime number. Or some weird Harvard architecture with radically different code/data sizes. Use prime numbers for both. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 11 12:35:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:35:51 -0700 Subject: Group buy for homebrew CPU In-Reply-To: <44DCBD97.5000300@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <44DCBD97.5000300@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200608111035510591.2484B24B@10.0.0.252> On 8/11/2006 at 11:25 AM woodelf wrote: >> Or, be unconventional and do 37 or some other prime number. > >I'd like to do '42' but that number was already taken by the SI-FI guys. >I still would like someday to build a trinary computer -1,0,+1 as a real >system. How about being really unconventional and building an asynchronous CPU? Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 11 12:37:56 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:37:56 -0400 Subject: ID these boards? Message-ID: <200608111337.56224.rtellason@verizon.net> I have a couple of boards here, not sure what the heck they are... They're both full-length ISA cards, a 50-pin (!) D-type connector on the metal bracket, 3 or 4 sets of DIP switches, and a LOT of jumpers. (70-80!) Both are marked "Frontier TEchnologies Corp. AdCom 2-M Controller", one is also marked "Version 3" (this one also has a holder for a coin cell on it) and the other one "Version 5". There's also a Z80-SIO and an 8253 on each board, and the Version 3 one has an 8255 as well. While I'm at it, I also have a keyboard here marked "Wyse Technology 1983" with a really odd 10-pin plug on the end of the cable. Nice individual keyswitches if anybody wants that for salvage, or can use the cable. This one' s a little different than a lot of that other stuff in that there's no LSI on the board. Complete except for the plastic covers not being there. Anybody have any use for this or parts of it? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 11 12:45:47 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:45:47 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: References: <44DBEBEE.4030105@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608111345.47712.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 10 August 2006 10:35 pm, David Griffith wrote: > The no-stock-on-hand part got me confuzzled. What exactly does that mean? > Wait a bit for it to get in stock or "who knows when they'll have it?"? > The Magic-1 requires three 74F381s and two 74F382s. > > Grr! I just sent off an order to Digikey yesterday! It's my understanding from what I've read in comments by others that they've shifted their emphasis somewhat toward large corporate buyers so that they don't stock as much as they used to, or something like that. I haven't dealt with them lately, but when I did it was usually a positive experience. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 11 12:53:53 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:53:53 -0600 Subject: Group buy for homebrew CPU In-Reply-To: <200608111035510591.2484B24B@10.0.0.252> References: <44DCBD97.5000300@jetnet.ab.ca> <200608111035510591.2484B24B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44DCC431.3090404@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > How about being really unconventional and building an asynchronous CPU? The only design I like is this one - 40 bits wide, but it is unfinished. http://www.hanssummers.com/index.htm > Cheers, > Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 11 12:53:11 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:53:11 -0400 Subject: LCD question Message-ID: <200608111353.11629.rtellason@verizon.net> Some time back, I pulled apart a fairly trashed XT-class computer and one of the things I got out of it was an LCD, most of it appearing to be fairly standard stuff and I don't think that I'm going to have a lot of trouble with that but then there's that other connector... Two pins, and both wires are the same color. It's been suggested to me that perhaps this is for an EL backlight. Any of you folks know of how I might go about testing that, so I can get some idea of what's actually in there? Anybody by any chance know of this display? Oh, and if it helps any the brand name on the box was "Western Digital", which is the only time I've ever seen that brand name on a computer. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 11 12:59:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:59:50 -0700 Subject: ID these boards? In-Reply-To: <200608111337.56224.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608111337.56224.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608111059500044.249AA532@10.0.0.252> On 8/11/2006 at 1:37 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Both are marked "Frontier TEchnologies Corp. AdCom 2-M Controller", one is >also marked "Version 3" (this one also has a holder for a coin cell on it) >and the other one "Version 5". There's also a Z80-SIO and an 8253 on each >board, and the Version 3 one has an 8255 as well. Here's a little bit on the critter: http://www.frontiertech.com/aboutus/aboutus.asp Sounds like the company's "reinvented" itself a couple of times since then. Cheers, Chuck From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Fri Aug 11 13:08:09 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:08:09 -0700 Subject: Group buy for homebrew CPU In-Reply-To: <200608111035510591.2484B24B@10.0.0.252> References: <44DCBD97.5000300@jetnet.ab.ca> <200608111035510591.2484B24B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44DCC789.9050000@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/11/2006 at 11:25 AM woodelf wrote: > >>> Or, be unconventional and do 37 or some other prime number. >> I'd like to do '42' but that number was already taken by the SI-FI guys. >> I still would like someday to build a trinary computer -1,0,+1 as a real >> system. > > How about being really unconventional and building an asynchronous CPU? Didn't SDS make something like that? From kelly at catcorner.org Fri Aug 11 13:12:22 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:12:22 -0400 Subject: FW: ID these boards? Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E374F5@MEOW.catcorner.org> > Both are marked "Frontier TEchnologies Corp. AdCom 2-M Controller", one is > also marked "Version 3" (this one also has a holder for a coin cell on it) > and the other one "Version 5". There's also a Z80-SIO and an 8253 on each > board, and the Version 3 one has an 8255 as well. Some info at: http://www.frontiertech.com/aboutus/aboutus.asp From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 11 13:25:44 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:25:44 -0400 Subject: ID these boards? In-Reply-To: <200608111059500044.249AA532@10.0.0.252> References: <200608111337.56224.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608111059500044.249AA532@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608111425.44103.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 11 August 2006 01:59 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/11/2006 at 1:37 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >Both are marked "Frontier TEchnologies Corp. AdCom 2-M Controller", one is > >also marked "Version 3" (this one also has a holder for a coin cell on it) > >and the other one "Version 5". There's also a Z80-SIO and an 8253 on each > >board, and the Version 3 one has an 8255 as well. > > Here's a little bit on the critter: > > http://www.frontiertech.com/aboutus/aboutus.asp A bit, but not much. They don't even say all that much about just what the darn thing does. > Sounds like the company's "reinvented" itself a couple of times since then. Yeah. I note with interest that they mention a lot of dealings with government in there, and the military. I got these with a "box of junk" that included some other bits that make me think that the military base in the area is probably where this stuff originated. I notice the site also mentions Zenith Data Systems which also saw a lot of use there as well. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 11 13:35:30 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:35:30 -0400 Subject: LCD question In-Reply-To: <200608111353.11629.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <001c01c6bd74$ec4fda30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Western Digital is a major manufacturer of hard drives. -----Original Message----- From: Roy J. Tellason [mailto:rtellason at verizon.net] Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 1:53 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: LCD question Some time back, I pulled apart a fairly trashed XT-class computer and one of the things I got out of it was an LCD, most of it appearing to be fairly standard stuff and I don't think that I'm going to have a lot of trouble with that but then there's that other connector... Two pins, and both wires are the same color. It's been suggested to me that perhaps this is for an EL backlight. Any of you folks know of how I might go about testing that, so I can get some idea of what's actually in there? Anybody by any chance know of this display? Oh, and if it helps any the brand name on the box was "Western Digital", which is the only time I've ever seen that brand name on a computer. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 11 13:58:42 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:58:42 -0700 Subject: LCD question In-Reply-To: <200608111353.11629.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608111353.11629.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608111158420779.24D08CCD@10.0.0.252> On 8/11/2006 at 1:53 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Oh, and if it helps any the brand name on the box was "Western Digital", >which is the only time I've ever seen that brand name on a computer. I don't know if this is germane to your box, but WD did purchase Faraday, a maker of, among other things, motherboards for PCs. Long ago, I used their "A Tease" 286 mobo--and still have the schematics for it. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 11 14:01:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:01:13 -0700 Subject: Group buy for homebrew CPU In-Reply-To: <44DCC789.9050000@dakotacom.net> References: <44DCBD97.5000300@jetnet.ab.ca> <200608111035510591.2484B24B@10.0.0.252> <44DCC789.9050000@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608111201130988.24D2DB75@10.0.0.252> On 8/11/2006 at 11:08 AM Don wrote: >Didn't SDS make something like that? As in Scientific Data Systens, then XDS, (Xerox), then oblivion? I wasn't aware that they did. At one time async logic was a hot topic. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 11 14:19:08 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:19:08 -0400 Subject: LCD question In-Reply-To: <001c01c6bd74$ec4fda30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001c01c6bd74$ec4fda30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <200608111519.08054.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 11 August 2006 02:35 pm, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Western Digital is a major manufacturer of hard drives. I knew that, I have several of them on hand here. And that's the *only* computer I've ever seen that had that name on it. And it was semi-proprietary in terms of the way it was built, no way was I gonna bother with messing with it... > -----Original Message----- > From: Roy J. Tellason [mailto:rtellason at verizon.net] > Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 1:53 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: LCD question > > Some time back, I pulled apart a fairly trashed XT-class computer and one > of the things I got out of it was an LCD, most of it appearing to be > fairly standard stuff and I don't think that I'm going to have a lot of > trouble with that but then there's that other connector... > > Two pins, and both wires are the same color. > > It's been suggested to me that perhaps this is for an EL backlight. Any of > you folks know of how I might go about testing that, so I can get some > idea of what's actually in there? > > Anybody by any chance know of this display? > > Oh, and if it helps any the brand name on the box was "Western Digital", > which is the only time I've ever seen that brand name on a computer. > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest > -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but > can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. > --James M Dakin -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 11 14:19:58 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:19:58 -0400 Subject: LCD question In-Reply-To: <200608111158420779.24D08CCD@10.0.0.252> References: <200608111353.11629.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608111158420779.24D08CCD@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608111519.58718.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 11 August 2006 02:58 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/11/2006 at 1:53 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >Oh, and if it helps any the brand name on the box was "Western Digital", > > > >which is the only time I've ever seen that brand name on a computer. > > I don't know if this is germane to your box, but WD did purchase Faraday, a > maker of, among other things, motherboards for PCs. Long ago, I used their > "A Tease" 286 mobo--and still have the schematics for it. And does that schematic show an LCD anywhere? I'm not sure what they used it for offhand. I can probably make the display work with something, but if it's indeed backlit that'd be a nice capability to use... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 11 14:41:31 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:41:31 -0400 Subject: LCD question In-Reply-To: <200608111519.08054.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <001101c6bd7e$25a24bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Ah ... that's a relief, LOL I thought you were saying you'd never heard of WD! -----Original Message----- From: Roy J. Tellason [mailto:rtellason at verizon.net] Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 3:19 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: LCD question On Friday 11 August 2006 02:35 pm, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Western Digital is a major manufacturer of hard drives. I knew that, I have several of them on hand here. And that's the *only* computer I've ever seen that had that name on it. And it was semi-proprietary in terms of the way it was built, no way was I gonna bother with messing with it... From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Aug 11 14:49:40 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:49:40 -0400 Subject: Thinking Machines DataVault Video In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 10 Aug 2006 22:38:26 EDT." <44DBEDA2.4010409@OceanRobots.net> Message-ID: <200608111949.k7BJne0Y008496@mwave.heeltoe.com> I know someone who works for the woman who was the ceo of TMI (Cherly somebody, I think. I met her once). I wonder if she has one. I'll ask. -brad Steve Stutman wrote: >Hi, > >Researching the early history of RAID. > >Thinking Machines announced a product called Datavault circa 1987; it >was shipped shortly after. > >A training video was made showing operation of the Datavault. > >If anyone has it, I'd like to buy. > >Please contact me off-list. > >Thanks, > >Steve > >Boston > > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Aug 11 14:58:56 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:58:56 -0700 Subject: async designs (was Re: Group buy for homebrew CPU) References: <44DCBD97.5000300@jetnet.ab.ca> <200608111035510591.2484B24B@10.0.0.252> <44DCC789.9050000@dakotacom.net> <200608111201130988.24D2DB75@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44DCE181.DBCC3CC3@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > At one time async logic was a hot topic. The IAS machine (von Neumann/late 1940s) is listed in various places (under 'clock rate') as being 'async'. (And - annoyingly - those listings then don't provide an effective instruction rate for the sake of comparison). I've been curious as to more precisely how the timing was accomplished in that (those) machines. Offhand, I suspect you still end up with delay elements in the design at various points to ensure some group (worst case) of signals/paths are all ready/stable at some point and you end with a more-or-less 'effective clock rate' anyways and don't gain much. Such all started with ENIAC didn't it?, which - based on what I've been able to find/read - could be described as an async design. Was async still being discussed in the 60's? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 11 15:13:05 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:13:05 -0700 Subject: async designs (was Re: Group buy for homebrew CPU) In-Reply-To: <44DCE181.DBCC3CC3@cs.ubc.ca> References: <44DCBD97.5000300@jetnet.ab.ca> <200608111035510591.2484B24B@10.0.0.252> <44DCC789.9050000@dakotacom.net> <200608111201130988.24D2DB75@10.0.0.252> <44DCE181.DBCC3CC3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200608111313050270.2514A43C@10.0.0.252> On 8/11/2006 at 12:58 PM Brent Hilpert wrote: >Such all started with ENIAC didn't it?, which - based on what I've been >able to find/read - could be described as an async design. >Was async still being discussed in the 60's? I think it's never really gone away. There may still be some multiplier chips kicking around that have a "done" flag. In theory, async affords the lowest power consumption and the highest speed, since things change state only when required to do so by the data flowing through them, instead of everytime the clock changes state. The gotcha is that the synchronizing logic takes up its own power. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 11 15:25:06 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:25:06 -0700 Subject: LCD question In-Reply-To: <200608111519.58718.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608111353.11629.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608111158420779.24D08CCD@10.0.0.252> <200608111519.58718.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608111325060605.251FA5EB@10.0.0.252> On 8/11/2006 at 3:19 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >And does that schematic show an LCD anywhere? I'm not sure what they used >it for offhand. I can probably make the display work with something, but if >it's indeed backlit that'd be a nice capability to use... Nope, but I'm just trying to tie into the WDC brand. My product directories don't turn up anything from around 1985 in the way of an XT with the WDC logo (there was an XT with the "Western Computer" name, however). WDC was into a lot of things back then. Cheers, Chuck From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Aug 11 15:37:55 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 16:37:55 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608111345.47712.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44DBEBEE.4030105@dakotacom.net> <200608111345.47712.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20060811203755.AF866BA4130@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > On Thursday 10 August 2006 10:35 pm, David Griffith wrote: > > The no-stock-on-hand part got me confuzzled. What exactly does that mean? > > Wait a bit for it to get in stock or "who knows when they'll have it?"? > > The Magic-1 requires three 74F381s and two 74F382s. > > > > Grr! I just sent off an order to Digikey yesterday! > > It's my understanding from what I've read in comments by others that they've > shifted their emphasis somewhat toward large corporate buyers so that they > don't stock as much as they used to, or something like that. Well, they don't sell Digital Keyer kits like they did when they started! But you cannot fault Digikey because they don't stock every single obsolete part ever made. They are a catalog house, and if they don't always stock it then it gets ordered from the manufacturer, with typical lead times and often minimum orders. Just because you and me want good a MSI/VLSI F-series TTL part in DIP doesn't mean that anyone else in the world does! TI, Fairchild, etc. really do work to keep most TTL parts/variants orderable, and when they are then the catalog houses like Digikey, Mouser, etc. can get them for us. I have succesfully and happily ordered "not normally stocked" stuff from Digikey in the past with great success, as a private individual. Some of the other suppliers mentioned in this thread are surplus-only dealers, they might have a supply but when it's gone, then it's gone. Continually I see massive quantities of useful-to-classiccmper parts show up at auction houses or on E-bay. Things like quantity 20,000 ECL chips common to 70's or 80's superminis or minisupers, often qualified to meet a specific manufacturer's speed specs (I'm most familiar with the DEC variants). Even spread out among all of us with ECL-based PDP-10's, I don't think we need more than a fraction of those gigantic lots :-). Tim. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Fri Aug 11 15:53:45 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:53:45 -0700 Subject: async designs (was Re: Group buy for homebrew CPU) In-Reply-To: <200608111313050270.2514A43C@10.0.0.252> References: <44DCBD97.5000300@jetnet.ab.ca> <200608111035510591.2484B24B@10.0.0.252> <44DCC789.9050000@dakotacom.net> <200608111201130988.24D2DB75@10.0.0.252> <44DCE181.DBCC3CC3@cs.ubc.ca> <200608111313050270.2514A43C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44DCEE59.80003@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/11/2006 at 12:58 PM Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> Such all started with ENIAC didn't it?, which - based on what I've been >> able to find/read - could be described as an async design. >> Was async still being discussed in the 60's? > > I think it's never really gone away. There may still be some multiplier > chips kicking around that have a "done" flag. In theory, async affords the > lowest power consumption and the highest speed, since things change state > only when required to do so by the data flowing through them, instead of > everytime the clock changes state. The gotcha is that the synchronizing > logic takes up its own power. And the fact that synchronizers don't (synchronize, that is :> ) From drb at msu.edu Fri Aug 11 15:54:39 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 16:54:39 -0400 Subject: TCPware install problem Message-ID: <200608112054.k7BKsd4o004831@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Dear all, Trying to install TCPware on VMS 7.3. When I ask it to start the services, it gives me: Starting TCPware(R) for OpenVMS Version 5.7-2 ... %RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0000021D %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 11-AUG-2006 16:24:41.25 %%%%%%%%%%% Message from user AUDIT$SERVER on SULLY Security alarm (SECURITY) and security audit (SECURITY) on SULLY, system id: 35869 Auditable event: Detached process login failure Event time: 11-AUG-2006 16:24:41.25 PID: 0000021E Process name: TCPware_DNS Username: SYSTEM Process owner: [1,3] Image name: $1$DIA6:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSEXE]LOGINOUT.EXE Status: %RMS-E-DNR, device not ready, not mounted, or unavailable %RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0000021E %STARTNET-F-ERROR, error during execution (Starting TCPware_DNS (detached job)) -STARTNET-I-SHUTNET, shutting down TCPware ... Shutting down TCPware(R) for OpenVMS ... %TCPWARE_NETCU-E-IVPORT, invalid port number or service name %TCPWARE_NETCU-E-IVPORT, invalid port number or service name . . . LOGINOUT exists: $ dir $1$DIA6:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSEXE]LOGINOUT.EXE Directory $1$DIA6:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSEXE] LOGINOUT.EXE;1 2-APR-2001 15:59:20.10 (RWED,RWED,RWED,RE) Total of 1 file. I can't find the thing I missed in the installation procedure, though presumably I did miss something. Help? De From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 11 16:28:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:28:14 -0700 Subject: ID these boards? In-Reply-To: <200608111425.44103.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608111337.56224.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608111059500044.249AA532@10.0.0.252> <200608111425.44103.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608111428140589.25597296@10.0.0.252> On 8/11/2006 at 2:25 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> http://www.frontiertech.com/aboutus/aboutus.asp > >A bit, but not much. They don't even say all that much about just what >the darn thing does. Well, since I was digging for the WDC LCD thingie, and didn't find it, I should mention that I found a brief description of the Ad-Con boards. Here goes: AdCom2-M 128K Bytes RAM 2 serial ports Data encryption Synchronous mainframe link Async, Bisync, HDLC, SDLC, X.25 terminal/protocol emulation Introduced 1984, Cost $850 This, oddly, was not the high-end model. The AdCom2-I had double the memory, was introduced in 1985 and was priced at $1495. Software was included with each board. There was also a plane-Jane AdCom2 with a printer port, clock/calendar and 64K of RAM, no encryption, introduced in 1983 and listed at $275. Given the correct spelling of the thing (or at least how the field knew it), I find references in: http://www.gwg.nga.mil/ntb/baseline/software/TACO2.html http://www.mcamafia.de/mcapage0/mca.dat http://sunsite.bilkent.edu.tr/pub/sun-info/sunspots/v10n96 http://www.textfiles.com/internet/vendors1.txt Hope this helps. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 11 16:32:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:32:03 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <20060811203755.AF866BA4130@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <44DBEBEE.4030105@dakotacom.net> <200608111345.47712.rtellason@verizon.net> <20060811203755.AF866BA4130@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200608111432030130.255CEF51@10.0.0.252> On 8/11/2006 at 4:37 PM shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: >I have succesfully and happily ordered "not normally stocked" stuff >from Digikey in the past with great success, as a private individual. I suspect that the legacy DIP stuff will get harder to buy new through "normal" channels, given RoHS. In the long run, I suppose we'd all better get used to working with surface mount. :( Cheers, Chuck From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Aug 11 16:58:16 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:58:16 -0600 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608111432030130.255CEF51@10.0.0.252> References: <44DBEBEE.4030105@dakotacom.net> <200608111345.47712.rtellason@verizon.net> <20060811203755.AF866BA4130@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200608111432030130.255CEF51@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44DCFD78.4010309@e-bbes.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/11/2006 at 4:37 PM shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > I suspect that the legacy DIP stuff will get harder to buy new through > "normal" channels, given RoHS. In the long run, I suppose we'd all better > get used to working with surface mount. :( Yup, get ready to solder .2 mm balls on 800 balls BGA. Get your toaster-oven ready ;-) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Aug 11 16:19:04 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:19:04 -0400 Subject: LCD question Message-ID: <0J3U000RGR5EBO27@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: LCD question > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:19:08 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Friday 11 August 2006 02:35 pm, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Western Digital is a major manufacturer of hard drives. > >I knew that, I have several of them on hand here. And that's the *only* >computer I've ever seen that had that name on it. And it was >semi-proprietary in terms of the way it was built, no way was I gonna bother >with messing with it... > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Roy J. Tellason [mailto:rtellason at verizon.net] >> Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 1:53 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: LCD question >> >> Some time back, I pulled apart a fairly trashed XT-class computer and one >> of the things I got out of it was an LCD, most of it appearing to be >> fairly standard stuff and I don't think that I'm going to have a lot of >> trouble with that but then there's that other connector... >> >> Two pins, and both wires are the same color. >> >> It's been suggested to me that perhaps this is for an EL backlight. Any of >> you folks know of how I might go about testing that, so I can get some >> idea of what's actually in there? >> >> Anybody by any chance know of this display? >> >> Oh, and if it helps any the brand name on the box was "Western Digital", >> which is the only time I've ever seen that brand name on a computer. Lest we forget the WD Pascal Micro? The one with the WD16 chipset programmed as a P-engine. Allison >> >> -- >> Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest >> -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but >> can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >> - >> Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. >> --James M Dakin > >-- >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and >ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can >be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >- >Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James >M Dakin From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Aug 11 16:23:51 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:23:51 -0400 Subject: Group buy for homebrew CPU Message-ID: <0J3U00BETRDDJF08@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Group buy for homebrew CPU > From: Scott Quinn > Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:03:50 -0500 > To: > > >Wodelf explicitly implied > >>PS... Upgrade now to 12/24 bits forget your old 8080 and get with the latest >>in 70's technology. > >Why mess with the low-end mini stuff? Build something with style, power, and 36-bits. > >Or, be unconventional and do 37 or some other prime number. > > Gee I've been sitting on 16 2901s... that should be enough bits for somthing. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:37:15 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 22:37:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Aug 10, 6 11:57:37 pm Message-ID: > > > Not sure I'd agree on the reliability...I've spilled my fair share of > > coke into keyboards, and contact-closure keyswitches just don't cut it > > for me unless they're sealed. > > You can make switches that are cheap and nasty, and you can make > switches that will last 100 years - and everything in between. If you > want a fair comparison, match the HP keyboard against a quality > "mechanical switch" keyboard, not a Chinese piece of crap. Lets face For some reason, the HP9830 did not use this trasnformer keyboard, it used a matrix of (IIRC Cheey brand) keyswitches. And yes, I have had to replace _one_ of those on my HP9830 (which is 33 years old, so I am not really complaining). I do wonder, though, if the transformer keyboard would be that much more expensive to produce. The encoder/controller board was about 20 TTL chips then, now it could be triviailly fitted into a PLD or ASIC (if you did the latter, you could fit the comparator in as well). The keyboard 'transformer' PCB is just a double-sided PCB, easy to make now, and the only components on that are a diode for each pair of keys (compared wit ha diode per key for a decent mechncial keyboard) As regards the mechanical bits, there are 4 for each key : The keycap (same as for a mechancial switch, basically) A plunger (plastic moulding) with a metal disk heat-staked to the end A spring A mounlded plastic housing. No worse than the parts for a mechanical switch, and shouldn't be any more expensive if produced in quantity. > it, HP stuff of that era was pretty much the pinnacle of engineering. One reason why I like their _old_ machines. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:50:17 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 22:50:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Slick Bits in Computers (WAS VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: from "Scott Quinn" at Aug 11, 6 11:57:16 am Message-ID: > There have to be some more designs that were so elegant or well-done > that you stepped back to admire them. > What were they? There are many 'little bits' of machines that I feel are well designed, but nothing instantly springs to mind. An example is PDP11/45 floating point processo, which automatically does multiplication by 1111 (say) as a subtract, followed by shifts, followed by an add (thus turning it into 10000 - 1). Oh, the RK07 head servo gets the honour for giving me many sleepless nights trying to figure it out. I can;t rememebr how many signals appear at the summing node of the output amplifier, but it's quite a few... A software example is the firmware for the Z80 on the PERQ 2 EIO board. There's a cooperative multitasker hidden in that ROM. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 11 16:59:41 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 22:59:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Source for Ethernet AUI/TP tranceivers? In-Reply-To: <1155306763.44dc950bbbea6@webmail.secure-wi.com> from "mbbrutman-cctalk@brutman.com" at Aug 11, 6 07:32:43 am Message-ID: > The bad news is that I have a few more of these cards but the twisted pair > connector is designed for LattisNet. LattisNet is a precursor to the standard > Ethernet over twisted pair and it is supposed to be close, but my hubs aren't > buying it. Do you know what the differences are? Does your ethernet card use a standard chip for the twisted pair connector -- if so, can you trace out the circuitry round it to see how it differs from a normal 10baseT design. It might just be the connector pinout or something. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 11 17:13:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:13:56 -0700 Subject: LCD question In-Reply-To: <0J3U000RGR5EBO27@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J3U000RGR5EBO27@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200608111513560788.25834A1F@10.0.0.252> On 8/11/2006 at 5:19 PM Allison wrote: >Lest we forget the WD Pascal Micro? The one with the WD16 chipset >programmed as a P-engine. But IIRC, no LCD display there,nor was it an XT-type machine. But there was a 2-board set for the XT, wasn't there? Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 11 17:17:44 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 16:17:44 -0600 Subject: Group buy for homebrew CPU In-Reply-To: <0J3U00BETRDDJF08@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J3U00BETRDDJF08@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <44DD0208.7080105@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > Gee I've been sitting on 16 2901s... that should be enough bits for somthing. > umm a low end 64 bit processer?? Well I think you need a few more chips to give you 64 bit floating point. > Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 11 17:24:09 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:24:09 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608111432030130.255CEF51@10.0.0.252> References: <44DBEBEE.4030105@dakotacom.net> <200608111345.47712.rtellason@verizon.net> <20060811203755.AF866BA4130@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200608111432030130.255CEF51@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I suspect that the legacy DIP stuff will get harder to buy new through > "normal" channels, given RoHS. In the long run, I suppose we'd all better > get used to working with surface mount. :( Nah, not anytime soon...unless I'm hallucinating, plenty of DIPs are available as RoHS compliant parts now. There's nothing "legacy" about DIPs just yet. That said, the notion that surface mount is somehow "harder to solder" is nothing but a load of crap. It is DIFFERENT...not harder. In fact, I find all but the very smallest SMT parts EASIER to work with than through-hole components. I suspect that someone, way back when, was afraid of it and said "it's to haaaard" and people have been propagating that rumor ever since. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From Steve at OceanRobots.net Fri Aug 11 17:24:24 2006 From: Steve at OceanRobots.net (Steve Stutman) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:24:24 -0400 Subject: Thinking Machines DataVault Video In-Reply-To: <200608111949.k7BJne0Y008496@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200608111949.k7BJne0Y008496@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <44DD0398.2070606@OceanRobots.net> Hi, Sheryl Handler. It's worth a box of lobsters. Suggest we have lunch within next month or so. I've got some embedded stuff that might materialize; would like to get bettter idea of what you guys do/like. Just trashed left knee; will be a couple of weeks 'til I sort it out. Thanks, Steve Brad Parker wrote: >I know someone who works for the woman who was the ceo of TMI (Cherly >somebody, I think. I met her once). > >I wonder if she has one. I'll ask. > >-brad > >Steve Stutman wrote: > > >>Hi, >> >>Researching the early history of RAID. >> >>Thinking Machines announced a product called Datavault circa 1987; it >>was shipped shortly after. >> >>A training video was made showing operation of the Datavault. >> >>If anyone has it, I'd like to buy. >> >>Please contact me off-list. >> >>Thanks, >> >>Steve >> >>Boston >> >> >> >> >> From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 11 17:26:35 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:26:35 -0400 Subject: Slick Bits in Computers (WAS VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DD041B.4010805@neurotica.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Oh, the RK07 head servo gets the honour for giving me many sleepless > nights trying to figure it out. I can;t rememebr how many signals appear > at the summing node of the output amplifier, but it's quite a few... Mmmm, I like RK07s. I grabbed a pair of them from Jon Wilson last summer...I hope to fire them up on my 11/34a after I get the CPU to pass its diags. I ran one for a long time back in the late 1980s. It sat two feet from my bed...even now, I can't sleep without some white noise in the room! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Aug 11 17:45:11 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:45:11 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 double integer instructions info References: <200608111444.k7BEimf2029796@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <000a01c6bd97$d0543a10$0100a8c0@screamer> Sorry for the typo, I did mean FFP, Fast Fortran. Standard on F-series, and I've only ever found one 2113 E-series CPU that did not have it installed (it had been highly customized with user microcode). ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. David Bryan" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 10:44 AM Subject: Re: HP 1000 double integer instructions info > On 10 Aug 2006 at 22:09, Bob Shannon wrote: > >> Virtually *every* HP21MX, 'E-series' machine will have the FFT microcode >> that implements several long integer formats (2 and 3 word). > > "FFT" = "Fast Fourier Transform?" I'm unfamiliar with that product, and I > can't find it in any of the 1000 MEF ordering guides that I have. Do you > have a part number? > > Are you possibly thinking of "FFP" = "Fast FORTRAN Processor?" That was a > common microcode option that added two- and three-word floating-point > instructions, but no integer instructions. > > -- Dave > > From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Aug 11 17:47:14 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 16:47:14 -0600 Subject: Group buy for homebrew CPU In-Reply-To: <0J3U00BETRDDJF08@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J3U00BETRDDJF08@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <44DD08F2.1090609@e-bbes.com> Allison wrote: > Gee I've been sitting on 16 2901s... that should be enough bits for somthing. Donald E. Knuths MMIX ? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 11 18:13:24 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:13:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Inside my A600 Message-ID: <200608112313.k7BNDOJ7047474@keith.ezwind.net> Hi, Well folks, I haven't made any progress since I last mentioned about my baby. I haven't got a Voltimeter yet, but I am considering getting one. However, I need to wait until after payday (15t h). In the meantime, I opened up my A600 and had a look inside. I decided to do a rough diagram of the chip layout and happened to notice what appears to be a component missing. I'm not entirely sure whether it was designed that way, or whether someone removed it. Incomplete Summary of my internals (I ran out of time-I needed to sleep!): (sticker) SCI BURN-IN (sticker) A600 PCBA *1.1* (sticker) A600 PCBA 4001192315986004003091 (writing on PCB) FAB 315985-01, A/W 315988-01 (writing on PCB) JUNE BUG - A300 Rev 1.1 C= GRR/BF/EG/PRY/FISH HCM/TC/CJW/LW/OF/LOLLI CPU (at U1): MC68000FN8 2C91E QQTN9151 Chip at U2: C= CSG 318069-10 8375 0692 20Vbb Chip at U4: CSG 391081-01 8373R4PL Chip at U5: C= CSG 391155-02 45 - GAYLE (C) M CBM 1991 0792 50020A Chip at U6: Commodore Amiga 391304-01 030 (C)1991 V2-05 37-300 9205XD042 Missing item from XU1 - there is an outline (in white) clearly visible, with small circular metal marks above and below where the component should be. The outline looks a bit like this: ______________________ |_ | _) | |______________________| Anyone have any idea whether this should be missing or not? Is it possible to get my hands on the plans (schematics?) for the PCB? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 11 18:00:31 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:00:31 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> References: <44DBEBEE.4030105@dakotacom.net> <200608111345.47712.rtellason@verizon.net> <20060811203755.AF866BA4130@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200608111432030130.255CEF51@10.0.0.252> <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > I suspect that someone, way back when, was afraid of it and said > "it's to haaaard" and people have been propagating that rumor ever since. The electronics hobbyist magazines of the 1980s, especially in their TV service columns, did not help the matter. Funny thing is that some of those same people moaned and griped when those fancy new printed circuit boards were coming out in the 1950s. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 11 18:08:54 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:08:54 -0400 Subject: async designs (was Re: Group buy for homebrew CPU) In-Reply-To: <44DCE181.DBCC3CC3@cs.ubc.ca> References: <44DCBD97.5000300@jetnet.ab.ca> <200608111035510591.2484B24B@10.0.0.252> <44DCC789.9050000@dakotacom.net> <200608111201130988.24D2DB75@10.0.0.252> <44DCE181.DBCC3CC3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > I've been curious as to more precisely how the timing was accomplished in that > (those) machines. Offhand, I suspect you still end up with delay elements in > the design at various points to ensure some group (worst case) of signals/paths > are all ready/stable at some point and you end with a more-or-less 'effective > clock rate' anyways and don't gain much. > > Such all started with ENIAC didn't it?, which - based on what I've been able > to find/read - could be described as an async design. > Was async still being discussed in the 60's? The first PDP-10 (KA-10) processor is complete async. It also seems to me that the PDP-9 processor is syncronous, but its clock cycle is derived from a bunch of one shots that kick each other in a circle, in a very async fashion. At least that is what I was told by the RICM guys. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 11 18:10:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 16:10:32 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: References: <44DBEBEE.4030105@dakotacom.net> <200608111345.47712.rtellason@verizon.net> <20060811203755.AF866BA4130@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200608111432030130.255CEF51@10.0.0.252> <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608111610320150.25B71897@10.0.0.252> On 8/11/2006 at 7:00 PM William Donzelli wrote: >Funny thing is that some of those same people moaned and griped when >those fancy new printed circuit boards were coming out in the 1950s. Consider what was state-of-the-art before PCB. Hand-wired point-to-point with plenty of tie points and laced cables. I've got to admit that some of the old chassis are downright artistic. Of course, before that, it was wring things up with #14 bus wire on a slab of pine, with inductor cores boiled in beeswax. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 11 18:11:43 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:11:43 -0400 Subject: Group buy for homebrew CPU In-Reply-To: <44DCBEE8.9060904@gmail.com> References: <44DCBEE8.9060904@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Or some weird Harvard architecture with radically different code/data > sizes. Use prime numbers for both. 8-) With an ALU based on residue arithmetic. With fractions, not floating point. -- Will From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Aug 11 18:37:14 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:37:14 -0500 Subject: new acquisitions Message-ID: <00a701c6bd9f$14e59dc0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Just received 3 packages in the mail today from 3 different folks... 1) What I believe is a complete PDP-11/40 cpu cardset (M7231 through M7238 {yup, EIS}). Is this a complete set? Too bad that won't magically make my 11/45 start working. 2) DEC Microprocessors Handbook (poor condition, but I didn't have one, so nice!). 3) An MDB systems "MDB-DR11C". What exactly is this? Is it the same as a DEC DR11C? What was it commonly used for? Also in the box was an ACT "10015000" which I'm guessing may be a 4-slu card? Yay! Jay From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Aug 11 18:39:52 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:39:52 -0500 Subject: Group buy for homebrew CPUs Message-ID: <068d9b601f7e436cb6c8c5e1ec4ebe41@valleyimplants.com> e.stibler pontificated: >Yup, get ready to solder .2 mm balls on 800 balls BGA. >Get your toaster-oven ready ;-) The really annoying thing about BGA is that I haven't figured a way to desolder and reuse chips. Very vexing. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Aug 11 18:46:16 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:46:16 -0500 Subject: ID these boards Message-ID: <1cfb9dba20b84808890d723cf0aecf18@valleyimplants.com> not the boards, but >While I'm at it, I also have a keyboard here marked "Wyse Technology 1983" >with a really odd 10-pin plug on the end of the cable. Nice individual >keyswitches if anybody wants that for salvage, or can use the cable. Can't get you the Wyse part number, but Altos (AFAIR) OEMed these terminals as the "Altos III" terminal. Have one in the garage, gives good service. ANSI and TVI-910, with a block-mode option. Haven't had to open it yet for any reason (already had a battery go out on a late '80s WY-150, so the Altos seems to be pretty bulletproof). Unusual key layout, though. (not DEC VT, not PC101). From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Aug 11 19:00:09 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:00:09 -0600 Subject: Group buy for homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <068d9b601f7e436cb6c8c5e1ec4ebe41@valleyimplants.com> References: <068d9b601f7e436cb6c8c5e1ec4ebe41@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <44DD1A09.8020802@e-bbes.com> Scott Quinn wrote: > e.stibler pontificated: > > >Yup, get ready to solder .2 mm balls on 800 balls BGA. >> Get your toaster-oven ready ;-) > > The really annoying thing about BGA is that I haven't figured a way to > desolder and reuse chips. Very vexing. Just desolder them, and clean nicely. And then use some of the re-balling kits, every decent pcb-assembly house has ;-) From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 11 19:28:35 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:28:35 -0400 Subject: LCD question In-Reply-To: <200608111325060605.251FA5EB@10.0.0.252> References: <200608111353.11629.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608111519.58718.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608111325060605.251FA5EB@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608112028.35346.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 11 August 2006 04:25 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/11/2006 at 3:19 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >And does that schematic show an LCD anywhere? I'm not sure what they used > >it for offhand. I can probably make the display work with something, but > > if > > >it's indeed backlit that'd be a nice capability to use... > > Nope, but I'm just trying to tie into the WDC brand. My product > directories don't turn up anything from around 1985 in the way of an XT > with the WDC logo (there was an XT with the "Western Computer" name, > however). WDC was into a lot of things back then. It's been so long since I got rid of that thing I couldn't even swear that it was an XT, though it sure wasn't that far from it... I just pulled it out again -- the two red wires in question go directly to pads that go right into the back of the display. There's also a part number with "EPSON" on the sticker, and a google search did turn up somebody wanting data on this unit (but no followups unfortunately). And that goes back to 1999. :-) Looks to be about a 2x16 or 2x20 maybe, with the usual Hitachi controller chip on there. Of the few LCDs I have on hand here, the other two are somewhat bigger, this is the only one I have that'll fit into the cover plate on a drive bay, which suggests some possible applications. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 11 19:30:58 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:30:58 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <20060811203755.AF866BA4130@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200608111345.47712.rtellason@verizon.net> <20060811203755.AF866BA4130@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200608112030.58187.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 11 August 2006 04:37 pm, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Continually I see massive quantities of useful-to-classiccmper > parts show up at auction houses or on E-bay. Things like quantity 20,000 > ECL chips common to 70's or 80's superminis or minisupers, often qualified > to meet a specific manufacturer's speed specs (I'm most familiar with > the DEC variants). Even spread > out among all of us with ECL-based PDP-10's, I don't think we need more > than a fraction of those gigantic lots :-). No, probably not, but sometimes those parts can be useful in other contexts too, like radio ferinstance. There seems to be a bunch of ECL parts used as prescalers, that I've noticed. And even some ECG/TTL hybrid parts, which I'd never seen before. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 11 19:38:10 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:38:10 -0400 Subject: ID these boards? In-Reply-To: <200608111428140589.25597296@10.0.0.252> References: <200608111337.56224.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608111425.44103.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608111428140589.25597296@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608112038.10404.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 11 August 2006 05:28 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/11/2006 at 2:25 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> http://www.frontiertech.com/aboutus/aboutus.asp > > > >A bit, but not much. They don't even say all that much about just what > >the darn thing does. > > Well, since I was digging for the WDC LCD thingie, and didn't find it, I > should mention that I found a brief description of the Ad-Con boards. Here > goes: > > AdCom2-M > > 128K Bytes RAM > 2 serial ports > Data encryption > Synchronous mainframe link > Async, Bisync, HDLC, SDLC, X.25 terminal/protocol emulation > Introduced 1984, Cost $850 > > This, oddly, was not the high-end model. The AdCom2-I had double the > memory, was introduced in 1985 and was priced at $1495. Software was > included with each board. There was also a plane-Jane AdCom2 with a > printer port, clock/calendar and 64K of RAM, no encryption, introduced in > 1983 and listed at $275. Hm. Neither one of these seems to have any RAM on it. > Given the correct spelling of the thing (or at least how the field knew > it), I find references in: > > http://www.gwg.nga.mil/ntb/baseline/software/TACO2.html > http://www.mcamafia.de/mcapage0/mca.dat > http://sunsite.bilkent.edu.tr/pub/sun-info/sunspots/v10n96 > http://www.textfiles.com/internet/vendors1.txt > > Hope this helps. That third reference mentioned a price of $2295 which is even higher yet. :-) Both that and the fourth reference seem to be talking about X.25, whatever that is. (I probably knew what that was at some point but the brain ain't what it used to be. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 11 19:38:45 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:38:45 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608111432030130.255CEF51@10.0.0.252> References: <20060811203755.AF866BA4130@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200608111432030130.255CEF51@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608112038.45990.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 11 August 2006 05:32 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/11/2006 at 4:37 PM shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > >I have succesfully and happily ordered "not normally stocked" stuff > >from Digikey in the past with great success, as a private individual. > > I suspect that the legacy DIP stuff will get harder to buy new through > "normal" channels, given RoHS. In the long run, I suppose we'd all better > get used to working with surface mount. :( I ain't goin' there! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 11 19:42:29 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:42:29 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> References: <200608111432030130.255CEF51@10.0.0.252> <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608112042.29509.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 11 August 2006 06:24 pm, Dave McGuire wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I suspect that the legacy DIP stuff will get harder to buy new through > > "normal" channels, given RoHS. In the long run, I suppose we'd all > > better get used to working with surface mount. :( > > Nah, not anytime soon...unless I'm hallucinating, plenty of DIPs are > available as RoHS compliant parts now. There's nothing "legacy" about > DIPs just yet. > > That said, the notion that surface mount is somehow "harder to > solder" is nothing but a load of crap. It is DIFFERENT...not harder. > In fact, I find all but the very smallest SMT parts EASIER to work with > than through-hole components. > > I suspect that someone, way back when, was afraid of it and said > "it's to haaaard" and people have been propagating that rumor ever since. It's _SMALLER_ and these eyes ain't what they used to be! (Which really sucks, but at least I can still see...) I have to grab for my lower-power magnifier more often than not if I want to read a number off a chip or a transistor, and I didn't used to have to do that. Couple that with half the darn things not even being marked at all, or being marked in such a way that only makes sense if you have the datasheet, and the're definitely much more of a PITA to deal with as far as I'm concerned. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 11 19:45:17 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:45:17 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608112045.17185.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 11 August 2006 07:00 pm, William Donzelli wrote: > > I suspect that someone, way back when, was afraid of it and said > > "it's to haaaard" and people have been propagating that rumor ever since. > > The electronics hobbyist magazines of the 1980s, especially in their > TV service columns, did not help the matter. I don't remember seeing hardly any hobbyist magazines from the 1980s, most of when I read those was earlier on. But then I'd moved out and away from NYC where such stuff was easier to find to a much more rural situation, which probably has some bearing on it. > Funny thing is that some of those same people moaned and griped when > those fancy new printed circuit boards were coming out in the 1950s. Yeah, I couldn't use my 100/140W soldering gun on those nearly as often. :-) Actually I never had all that much of a problem dealing with boards, although the way that some of them are made seems to make them a bit more of a hassle to deal with. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 11 19:47:17 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:47:17 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608111610320150.25B71897@10.0.0.252> References: <200608111610320150.25B71897@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608112047.17017.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 11 August 2006 07:10 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/11/2006 at 7:00 PM William Donzelli wrote: > >Funny thing is that some of those same people moaned and griped when > >those fancy new printed circuit boards were coming out in the 1950s. > > Consider what was state-of-the-art before PCB. Hand-wired point-to-point > with plenty of tie points and laced cables. I've got to admit that some of > the old chassis are downright artistic. Of course, before that, it was > wring things up with #14 bus wire on a slab of pine, with inductor cores > boiled in beeswax. Ok, you lost me there. I have no problem with the #14 bus wire or the slab of pine, but what's the beeswax for? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 11 19:49:18 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:49:18 -0400 Subject: Group buy for homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <068d9b601f7e436cb6c8c5e1ec4ebe41@valleyimplants.com> References: <068d9b601f7e436cb6c8c5e1ec4ebe41@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200608112049.18786.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 11 August 2006 07:39 pm, Scott Quinn wrote: > e.stibler pontificated: > >Yup, get ready to solder .2 mm balls on 800 balls BGA. > > > >Get your toaster-oven ready ;-) > > The really annoying thing about BGA is that I haven't figured a way to > desolder and reuse chips. Very vexing. Probably possible if you don't care at all about the board... Just take it outside, and hit the back side of the board with a torch. :-) For those boards where they didn't bend pins over, stuff just falls right out if you do this right. A bit too long on one spot and the board catches fire, which is when you find out why I said take it outside. Those fumes are no fun at all. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From Watzman at neo.rr.com Fri Aug 11 19:50:19 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:50:19 -0400 Subject: LCD question In-Reply-To: <200608112226.k7BMQJnf015092@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000d01c6bda9$494db570$6c00a8c0@barry> LCD panels have two connections: A data cable (20 to 60 pins), and the backlight. The data cables are totally non-standard and unique, unless you got a panel that takes VGA or video inputs (this is extremely rare and not the norm). Almost every single panel is different from almost every other panel, and the connectors are impossible to get in small quantities. The backlight is just the two ends of a cold-cathode Fluorescent lamp tube 6 to 16 inches long, depending on the size of the LCD panel. It goes to a high voltage inverter mounted in the lid of the laptop with the LCD panel which produces 400 to 2,000 volts to start and run the lamp. [some larger LCD panels have multiple lamps]. The chances of being able to successfully use an LCD panel from a laptop for any other purpose are near zero. From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 11 19:51:02 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:51:02 -0400 Subject: ID these boards In-Reply-To: <1cfb9dba20b84808890d723cf0aecf18@valleyimplants.com> References: <1cfb9dba20b84808890d723cf0aecf18@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200608112051.02867.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 11 August 2006 07:46 pm, Scott Quinn wrote: > not the boards, but > > >While I'm at it, I also have a keyboard here marked "Wyse Technology 1983" > >with a really odd 10-pin plug on the end of the cable. Nice individual > >keyswitches if anybody wants that for salvage, or can use the cable. > > Can't get you the Wyse part number, but Altos (AFAIR) OEMed these terminals > as the "Altos III" terminal. Have one in the garage, gives good service. > ANSI and TVI-910, with a block-mode option. Haven't had to open it yet for > any reason (already had a battery go out on a late '80s WY-150, so the > Altos seems to be pretty bulletproof). Unusual key layout, though. (not DEC > VT, not PC101). Yeah, 16 function keys and next to that "setup" and "break". Line feed next to return, and the arrow keys below that. Not a bad layout, and it seems like a nice keyboard, but I just don't have any use for it. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Aug 11 19:56:26 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:56:26 -0400 Subject: new acquisitions In-Reply-To: <00a701c6bd9f$14e59dc0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00a701c6bd9f$14e59dc0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20060812005626.7EFB0BA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Jay West" wrote: > 3) An MDB systems "MDB-DR11C". What exactly is this? Is it the same as a DEC > DR11C? Pretty much. A non-DMA parallel port. > What was it commonly used for? Most commonly used for digital data acquisition or as a generic interface to any device with a word you want to put to/from the Unibus. With a little bit of logic level inversion can interface to a parallel printer or plotter. Not high bandwidth, that would use a DMA parallel port like a DR11-W. Occasionally used as inter-CPU communication channel. > Also in the box was an ACT "10015000" > which I'm guessing may be a 4-slu card? That's a pretty nifty implementation of 4 DL11's onto a single Unibus board. This the one that's a hex-height board but with a cutout so you can use it in a slot with a Unibus cable on the last two places, right? Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 11 19:59:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:59:31 -0700 Subject: ID these boards? In-Reply-To: <200608112038.10404.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608111337.56224.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608111425.44103.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608111428140589.25597296@10.0.0.252> <200608112038.10404.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608111759310709.261AE078@10.0.0.252> On 8/11/2006 at 8:38 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Both that and the fourth reference seem to be talking about X.25, >whatever that is. (I probably knew what that was at some point but the brain ain't >what it used to be. :-) Packet-switching protocol--think Tymnet. The CCITT standard's on the web. Cheers, Chuck From recycler at swbell.net Fri Aug 11 21:44:35 2006 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick J. Jankowiak) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:44:35 -0500 Subject: TI 990 system now up for bid. In-Reply-To: <44CD404E.6050401@swbell.net> References: <44CD404E.6050401@swbell.net> Message-ID: <44DD4093.9070801@swbell.net> Hello, The previously mentioned TI 990/10 is now available for bid. The system was used for running the owner's substantial DEC computer resale business until July 30, 2006. The fresh decommission date and recent use indicates that this system is in prime shape and should be ready to use. I am assisting with this process because the owner of this large business does not have time to deal with this. All available details are here: http://www.bunkerofdoom.com/computers/ti990/ti990.html Sorry about the image quality, I will not drive from Dallas to Shreveport to take pictures of someone else's machines for sale. We tried to get someone to do a better job, the picture taker apparently does not know how to use a camera or process images. That's how it goes. I have been trying to get a decent set of images, but you know how it is when someone sends a crappy single picture and then asks "did the pictures work"? If better pictures arrive, then they will be posted and a notice made to this list but I would not hold my breath. As for the system, I have seen it running, when I was at the Dallas office about 10 years ago, and I can say it was nice and clean and in a computer room with lights a-flashin'. The company has since moved its operations to Shreveport. ////////////////////////////////////////////////////// The rules on this are simple. By submitting a bid, you agree to these rules. Before complaining about the overbearing and officious rules, please consider that I myself do not have alot of time to deal with this eiter, and this is being offered here, to the 31337, er.. elite! -and not to ebay or other places where thieves and pimps run free. Please read the rules if you intend to bid: Bidding period ends midnight, August 20, 2006. Bid amounts from any bidder will not be disclosed to other bidders. Bid amounts are for the computer system as shown and as described, and do not include any crating or shipping costs. You may bid more than once, in case you change your mind. The highest bid you submit is your true bid, please bid wisely. Bids are to be submitted via e-mail to: recycler at swbell.net - with the subject line "TI 990 BID". Sorry, no non-USA bids. Non-USA bidders must use a proxy located in the USA to bid and assume all responsibilities on their behalf. Payment is by money order or cashiers check and must be received no later than August 31, 2006. Buyer will pick up, or cause to be picked up, the system complete, from its location in Shreveport, LA. If making arrangements to pay when picking up (all pickup and other arrangements other than noted here are strictly after-the-bid period, and strictly between high bidder and system owner), payment is to be made in cash to avoid errors. Machines must be picked up before November 01, 2006. All representations regarding the system, no matter how, where, by whom delivered, or when made, from January 01, 2006 until the end of time, are made by the owner of the machines, who is solely responsible for their accuracy. Patrick Jankowiak is merely showing the machines on the WWW and taking the bids as a courtesy, and is not responsible for anything. All transactions including payment and pickup are responsibility of the high bidder and the system owner. Upon end of the bidding term, the system owner will be notified of the high bidder's name and e-mail, and the high bidder will be given the business phone number and name of the owner and must contact the system owner during business hours to arrange payment, pickup, and shipping logistics. Shipping, should the high bidder not wish to appear in person in Shreveport, Louisiana, to collect the equipment, can be arranged through a "pickup, pack, and ship" service. Such services may be found by internet searches. Purchasing some insurance and issuing verbose instructions to any such service entity would be considered mandatory by any prudent person. One shipping company which I have used before, with no lights or switches broken yet, is "craters and freighters" Dallas office. They will send handlers and a truck with equipment, carefully move and pack the equipment in the truck, then take it to their office and properly prepare it for shipment, and then put it on a big truck to be delivered to your general destination. This statement is by no means an endorsement of any particular service company. Craters & Freighters of Shreveport 3070 A Baird Rd. Shreveport, LA 71118 318-688-4410 866-688-4410 Fax: 318-688-4465 Shreveport at cratersandfreighters.com The high bidder may negotiate any kind of shipping arrangements they can, with the owner of the system. The owner may or may not be able to handle himself the shipment of this equipment. Therefore the suggestion of a professional moving service company is made. Changes to any of these rules may be made after the end of the bidding period by mutual agreement between the high bidder and the system owner. ///////////////////////////////////////// best regards, Patrick From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 11 22:18:39 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:18:39 +1200 Subject: ID these boards? In-Reply-To: <200608111428140589.25597296@10.0.0.252> References: <200608111337.56224.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608111059500044.249AA532@10.0.0.252> <200608111425.44103.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608111428140589.25597296@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 8/12/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, since I was digging for the WDC LCD thingie, and didn't find it, I > should mention that I found a brief description of the Ad-Con boards. Here > goes: > > AdCom2-M > > 128K Bytes RAM > 2 serial ports > Data encryption > Synchronous mainframe link > Async, Bisync, HDLC, SDLC, X.25 terminal/protocol emulation > Introduced 1984, Cost $850 > > This, oddly, was not the high-end model. The AdCom2-I had double the > memory, was introduced in 1985 and was priced at $1495. Software was > included with each board. There was also a plane-Jane AdCom2 with a > printer port, clock/calendar and 64K of RAM, no encryption, introduced in > 1983 and listed at $275. That sounds a lot like a COMBOARD, but I don't recall ever seeing an AdCom board (just competitors from Simpact Associates and a couple of others). We used to charge a couple of grand (hardware only) for a Unibus or Qbus board with 32K - 256K of RAM, 1 or 2 sync serial ports, local printer port, etc. Software was a bit more than just a spare board price, depending on protocol and line speed. Got any pictures? I'm curious to see what it looks like. -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Aug 11 22:32:20 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 23:32:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> References: <44DBEBEE.4030105@dakotacom.net> <200608111345.47712.rtellason@verizon.net> <20060811203755.AF866BA4130@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200608111432030130.255CEF51@10.0.0.252> <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > That said, the notion that surface mount is somehow "harder to > solder" is nothing but a load of crap. It is DIFFERENT...not harder. I've never tried surface-mount chips. But I've tried soldering things of similar size, and for me, yes, it *is* harder. Admittedly, that could be a lack of tools. Given a stereo loupe, pantographic waldos, and a really fine-point soldering iron, it quite possibly wouldn't be all that tough. But those ain't cheap, and I think needing significantly more expensive equipment counts as "harder". Yes, there are other alternatives. But a real SMT rework station costs even more than the above. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Aug 11 22:59:09 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 23:59:09 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 11 August 2006 23:32, der Mouse wrote: > Admittedly, that could be a lack of tools. Given a stereo loupe, > pantographic waldos, and a really fine-point soldering iron, it quite > possibly wouldn't be all that tough. But those ain't cheap, and I > think needing significantly more expensive equipment counts as > "harder". All you need is to use lots of flux and a chisel-tip soldering iron. With the correct technique (which is one of the few useful things I learned in my ECE classes), it's fairly easy to do. Basically, you tack down the corners of the chip, and then draw the chisel tip across the pins, along with the solder. Using plenty of flux is essential for this to work, and it'll probably take a couple of tries to get the technique down. Trying to solder the pins individually, and avoiding bridging them (like if you didn't use enough flux) is a complete pain in the ass, and just a bad idea. Passives are a bit trickier, but if you use a hemostat or pair of tweezers to hold onto it, that shouldn't be too difficult either (hint: tin the PCB pads first). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 11 23:08:16 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:08:16 +1200 Subject: SMT hobby projects (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) Message-ID: On 8/12/06, der Mouse wrote: > > That said, the notion that surface mount is somehow "harder to > > solder" is nothing but a load of crap. It is DIFFERENT...not harder. > > I've never tried surface-mount chips. But I've tried soldering things > of similar size, and for me, yes, it *is* harder. While parts can slip or be pulled by solder wicking things around, a few simple tricks (soldering corners of QFPs first, using scotch tape to hold down a 1206 SMT resistor while soldering one end...) make things a bit easier. > Admittedly, that could be a lack of tools. Given a stereo loupe, > pantographic waldos, and a really fine-point soldering iron, it quite > possibly wouldn't be all that tough. But those ain't cheap, and I > think needing significantly more expensive equipment counts as > "harder". I put together an IOB6120 (QFP FPGA, 0.5mm-pitch TSOP FLASH...) with a Weller iron and no special tools... just solder wick for clean-up, and a flux pen to help everything flow nice and cleanly. I've also done a few CF connectors for a couple of Spare Time Gizmos projects (Elf2000 disk board, MP3 player...) To be fair, I wasn't doing it with over-40 eyes, but I expect that someday, I'll have to start using my bench lens/light for everyday stuff. Just this week, I did a hybrid through-hole/SMT project with an Atmel 90S2313 on a Dick Smith protoboard (Datak 12-611B for the curious) - the CPU and other chips were through-hole, but I used some SMT caps to pack enough goodies on a 24-pin-long protoboard. It was the first time I used SMT parts on a protoboard, but it was so effective that it won't be the last. I guess I just got lucky enough to get into SMT projects in the early 1990s and didn't really worry about it. I can recommend that if you are going to be doing a lot of them that the proper tools really make things easier. I did a stint with a Dremmel-sized hot-air soldering gun and an RF soldering iron and a foot-activated solder paste pump, and I have to say that it was _nice_, but I don't own those tools myself (wish I did). Even so, you can still do a lot with SOTs and 1206 resistors and a 1/32" soldering iron tip and tools that you _ought_ to own for through-hole projects. -ethan From jdaviscctalk at soupwizard.com Fri Aug 11 23:14:11 2006 From: jdaviscctalk at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EX2000 Floppy Drive Tester In-Reply-To: <200608120253.k7C2rha5019914@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608120253.k7C2rha5019914@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3217.68.108.252.223.1155356051.squirrel@webmail9.pair.com> Hi, I ran across an interesting gadget at a university surplus sale, maybe someone can tell me how useful it is. It's an EX 2000 Disk Drive Tester. It came with a couple manuals and some 5.25" alignment floppies. The manual says it's "used to align and repair floppy disk drives with industry standard SA400 and SA800 interfaces", and says the connections on the end are for 5.25" and 8" drives. Here's a photo: http://www.soupwizard.com/temp/ex2000.jpg I'm extremely unlikely to be doing any floppy repairs myself, so would this be useful to anyone else? Jeff From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Aug 11 23:06:50 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 00:06:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Admittedly, that could be a lack of tools. Given a stereo loupe, >> pantographic waldos, and a really fine-point soldering iron, it >> quite possibly wouldn't be all that tough. But those ain't cheap, >> and I think needing significantly more expensive equipment counts as >> "harder". > Basically, you tack down the corners of the chip, and then draw the > chisel tip across the pins, along with the solder. [...] > Trying to solder the pins individually, and avoiding bridging them > (like if you didn't use enough flux) is a complete pain in the ass, > and just a bad idea. This sounds as though you're talking strictly about soldering them to a printed-circuit board. If so, that's a lose right there, compared to DIPs, if you can't connect to them (without equipment prohibitively expensive for hobbyist use) except via a PCB. > Passives are a bit trickier, but if you use a hemostat or pair of > tweezers to hold onto it, that shouldn't be too difficult either Components with small "pin" count and large "pins", like passives or discrete transistors, are comparatively easy, yes. But still not *nearly* as easy as the corresponding components designed for through-hole use (and readily usable for other, eg, point-to-point, use, which SM components generally aren't; while for "easy" components it's not all that hard to solder leads onto them, at the very least it's an extra step, and in general I'd say it qualifies as "harder"). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 11 23:20:05 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 00:20:05 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608111610320150.25B71897@10.0.0.252> References: <44DBEBEE.4030105@dakotacom.net> <200608111345.47712.rtellason@verizon.net> <20060811203755.AF866BA4130@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200608111432030130.255CEF51@10.0.0.252> <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608111610320150.25B71897@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > Consider what was state-of-the-art before PCB. Hand-wired point-to-point > with plenty of tie points and laced cables. There were plenty of instances of PCB-ish designs for the techs to get used to, but they still complained. Even in the 1920s, some companies were getting into technologies that were clearly on their way to being PCBs - all the tube sockets on one piece of plastic, with wires preinstalled the step before. I think it may be that electronics people just like to complain. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 11 23:22:13 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 00:22:13 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608112045.17185.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608112045.17185.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > I don't remember seeing hardly any hobbyist magazines from the 1980s, most of > when I read those was earlier on. But then I'd moved out and away from NYC > where such stuff was easier to find to a much more rural situation, which > probably has some bearing on it. Radio Electronics was a big complainer about surface mount - but in the end they did publish articles on how to accept and deal with it. -- Will From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Fri Aug 11 23:23:13 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:23:13 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <44DBEBEE.4030105@dakotacom.net> <200608111345.47712.rtellason@verizon.net> <20060811203755.AF866BA4130@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200608111432030130.255CEF51@10.0.0.252> <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44DD57B1.9020003@dakotacom.net> der Mouse wrote: >> That said, the notion that surface mount is somehow "harder to >> solder" is nothing but a load of crap. It is DIFFERENT...not harder. > > I've never tried surface-mount chips. But I've tried soldering things > of similar size, and for me, yes, it *is* harder. Agreed. I regularly use 4-pack resistors that are half the size of the *body* of an 1/8W resistor. Without a good inspection magnifying glass (BTW, anyone have one to spare?), it's hard to tell if the component is even properly *aligned* before applying heat! > Admittedly, that could be a lack of tools. Given a stereo loupe, > pantographic waldos, and a really fine-point soldering iron, it quite > possibly wouldn't be all that tough. But those ain't cheap, and I > think needing significantly more expensive equipment counts as > "harder". Get yourself a Leister :> Then, mortgage your home to buy the infinite number of "tips" required :-/ > Yes, there are other alternatives. But a real SMT rework station costs > even more than the above. :-) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 11 23:22:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:22:38 -0700 Subject: LCD question In-Reply-To: <000d01c6bda9$494db570$6c00a8c0@barry> References: <000d01c6bda9$494db570$6c00a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <200608112122380581.26D4D319@10.0.0.252> On 8/11/2006 at 8:50 PM Barry Watzman wrote: >The backlight is just the two ends of a cold-cathode Fluorescent lamp tube >6to 16 inches long, depending on the size of the LCD panel. Some of the older/smaller LCD displays use EL backlighting. Still need an inverter to drive the thing, though. Cheers, Chuck From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Fri Aug 11 23:25:42 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:25:42 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <44DD5846.40704@dakotacom.net> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 11 August 2006 23:32, der Mouse wrote: >> Admittedly, that could be a lack of tools. Given a stereo loupe, >> pantographic waldos, and a really fine-point soldering iron, it quite >> possibly wouldn't be all that tough. But those ain't cheap, and I >> think needing significantly more expensive equipment counts as >> "harder". > > All you need is to use lots of flux and a chisel-tip soldering iron. With the > correct technique (which is one of the few useful things I learned in my ECE > classes), it's fairly easy to do. > > Basically, you tack down the corners of the chip, and then draw the chisel tip > across the pins, along with the solder. Using plenty of flux is essential > for this to work, and it'll probably take a couple of tries to get the > technique down. This works "adequately" with gull-wing packages. But, Jlead, BGA, etc. it's easier to just shoot yourself in BOTH feet before even getting started! > Trying to solder the pins individually, and avoiding bridging them (like if > you didn't use enough flux) is a complete pain in the ass, and just a bad > idea. > > Passives are a bit trickier, but if you use a hemostat or pair of tweezers to > hold onto it, that shouldn't be too difficult either (hint: tin the PCB pads > first). Solder paste and hot air are infinitely easier. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Aug 11 23:46:53 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Source for Ethernet AUI/TP tranceivers? In-Reply-To: <1155306763.44dc950bbbea6@webmail.secure-wi.com> References: <1155306763.44dc950bbbea6@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: > Does anybody have a few they want to unload, or know of a good seller? > Also, are all AUI/TP tranceivers equal or should I be looking for > something better? See http://stores.ebay.com/anthonypanda. He's offering lots of ten for $115 buy-it-now, shipping $22. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 12 00:00:38 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 23:00:38 -0600 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DD5846.40704@dakotacom.net> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44DD5846.40704@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44DD6076.7030507@jetnet.ab.ca> Don wrote: > > Solder paste and hot air are infinitely easier. > But can you do POPCORN too. :) Still I would like to see in surface mount --- tiny Flip/Clips and see how small you can build a PDP-{Favorate number}. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Aug 12 00:52:10 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 22:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DD6076.7030507@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44DD5846.40704@dakotacom.net> <44DD6076.7030507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Aug 2006, woodelf wrote: > Don wrote: > > > > > Solder paste and hot air are infinitely easier. > > > But can you do POPCORN too. :) > Still I would like to see in surface mount --- > tiny Flip/Clips and see how small you can build > a PDP-{Favorate number}. So you can build a scale working model of a pdp-whatever? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Aug 12 01:00:07 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:00:07 +1200 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) Message-ID: On 8/12/06, woodelf wrote: > Still I would like to see in surface mount --- > tiny Flip/Clips and see how small you can build > a PDP-{Favorate number}. I _have_ thought about that for replacement -8/L and -8/i boards - design a simple board with, say, 4 to 6 16-pin SO pads and decoupling caps and a dual row of jumper pads to cross-connect the edge fingers to the various chip pads to be able to replicate, say, an M111 vs an M117. The "problem" is that I doubt you could get real TTL (not LS-TTL) parts in SO. I haven't experimented with replacing TTL with LS parts in any of my -8s, so I don't know if there would be any issues or not. So far, I've always had enough of the right things on hand when I go to replace a chip on an M-series module. I would think that the dimensions could be on the order of 2 x the size of just the area of the fingers. The advantage, of course, is that it would be easy to make a large number of these on one PCB panel, reducing per-unit costs. Using one (or maybe two at most) base designs would also help quantity issues. You could sit down one day and make a stack of a dozen M111s, then make two dozen M113s the next day with the same PCB; just add the right SO-parts and configure the jumpers in the right order, and there you are. -ethan From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Aug 12 01:18:44 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 01:18:44 -0500 Subject: ID These boards. Message-ID: <29d72bb3f9ce4d809abc866f70e3cf77@valleyimplants.com> Both that and the fourth reference seem to be talking about X.25, whatever that is. (I probably knew what that was at some point but the brain ain't what it used to be. :-) X.25 - packet switched network standard. Most times you'd come across AX.25 - packet radio. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Aug 12 01:23:05 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 01:23:05 -0500 Subject: Group buy of homebrew CPUs Message-ID: <08851711742c42718e4db03c51e85e36@valleyimplants.com> Roy replied: > Probably possible if you don't care at all about the board... > >Just take it outside, and hit the back side of the board with a torch. :-) Tried the 400F oven trick. Works wonders with through-hole and many SMDs, but BGAs either loose all the balls or the solder balls melt into a sheet. Not fun. Small resistors and capacitors are hard to do this way too, they don't have enough mass to dislodge with the shake. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Aug 12 01:25:00 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 02:25:00 -0400 Subject: Mouse systems M4 Optical Mouse Message-ID: <010401c6bdd8$0a134b20$0b01a8c0@game> I have a Mouse Systems M4 model optical mouse that came with my Amiga 3000 but does not have the special mousepad needed for it, any way to fake one of those pads? The only other available mouse I have is for the A1000 and has an angled connector that won't fit unless I jack the A3000 case up a few inches. How well did the M4s work anyway? I did plug it in to my machine and the buttons seem to work but I could not find a printed patterrn that would make the cursor do anything but barely move (The red LED does light up). I tend to like optical mice so this would be cool to have functioning. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 12 02:33:25 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 07:33:25 +0000 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44DD8445.3080708@yahoo.co.uk> der Mouse wrote: >> Trying to solder the pins individually, and avoiding bridging them >> (like if you didn't use enough flux) is a complete pain in the ass, >> and just a bad idea. > > This sounds as though you're talking strictly about soldering them to a > printed-circuit board. If so, that's a lose right there, compared to > DIPs, if you can't connect to them (without equipment prohibitively > expensive for hobbyist use) except via a PCB. It is do-able; I remember hacking my DVD player to work with all regions, which required the addition of a couple of off-PCB surface mount chips. Soldering wires to the pins is a real pain in the butt, but it can be done. -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From vrs at msn.com Sat Aug 12 02:03:49 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 00:03:49 -0700 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) References: Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" > On 8/12/06, woodelf wrote: > > Still I would like to see in surface mount --- > > tiny Flip/Clips and see how small you can build > > a PDP-{Favorate number}. It should be possible to do a 3/4 scale or so model using readily available 0.1" pitch edge connectors instead of the unobtanium 0.125" pitch that DEC used. The gold adds a lot to the card costs, though. (You'd be money ahead to switch to pin headers.) Since switches and other parts have gotten similarly smaller, that scale would probably work out OK. If you wanted to set a size record of some sort, you could use .05" pitch connectors, but that would surely be harder to find and cost more. > I _have_ thought about that for replacement -8/L and -8/i boards - > design a simple board with, say, 4 to 6 16-pin SO pads and decoupling > caps and a dual row of jumper pads to cross-connect the edge fingers > to the various chip pads to be able to replicate, say, an M111 vs an > M117. The "problem" is that I doubt you could get real TTL (not > LS-TTL) parts in SO. I haven't experimented with replacing TTL with > LS parts in any of my -8s, so I don't know if there would be any > issues or not. So far, I've always had enough of the right things on > hand when I go to replace a chip on an M-series module. I would think > that the dimensions could be on the order of 2 x the size of just the > area of the fingers. > > The advantage, of course, is that it would be easy to make a large > number of these on one PCB panel, reducing per-unit costs. Using one > (or maybe two at most) base designs would also help quantity issues. > You could sit down one day and make a stack of a dozen M111s, then > make two dozen M113s the next day with the same PCB; just add the > right SO-parts and configure the jumpers in the right order, and there > you are. I have CAD drawings for a regular size flipchip that uses "D" packages to do all the common NAND and inverter stuff in the Mxxx series. You just install the correct row of components for whatever you need today :-). I don't know of anywhere you can get straight TTL in SO packages, but I have 74F family stuff in "D" packages. Vince I also have CAD drawings of enough of the Gxxx and Mxxx module families (using thru-hole packages) to build a TC08 from scratch, if one had that kind of time and money. I stopped just short (so far) of adding all of the necessary modules to build an 8/i. Except the core planes, of course, which I have no way to build out of modern parts :-/. From technobug at comcast.net Sat Aug 12 02:18:40 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 00:18:40 -0700 Subject: Group buy for homebrew CPU In-Reply-To: <200608112227.k7BMRn2h015278@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608112227.k7BMRn2h015278@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <925F02E8-6FCA-4C0B-95CA-46EAE1D08791@comcast.net> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:01:13 -0700, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 8/11/2006 at 11:08 AM Don wrote: > >> Didn't SDS make something like that? > > As in Scientific Data Systens, then XDS, (Xerox), then oblivion? I > wasn't > aware that they did. At one time async logic was a hot topic. IIRC the PDP 9 (and possibly the 5 and 7) were async machines. That was my first "personal" computer (nobody else wanted to touch it...) and I spent many hour programming and keeping the beast running. When the thing failed it was a real pain to troubleshoot. You would find a signal on the backplane that was out of spec, but when you put the card on the extension board to troubleshoot the damn thing would start working. That and the unique control "memory" that would stop working when things got damp... CRC From jonas.otter at gmail.com Sat Aug 12 02:25:33 2006 From: jonas.otter at gmail.com (Jonas Otter) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:25:33 +0200 Subject: TCPware install problem Message-ID: <44DD826D.1090501@gmail.com> Dennis Boone wrote: > LOGINOUT exists: LOGINOUT is the program that logs users and batch jobs in or out of VMS. If that didn't exist, I doubt very much that VMS would start up at all. Look for a command file in TCPware that starts it all up. There will be a reference there to some device that is causing your problem: wrong disk, hardware/network device not functioning, etc. There should be a log file from the startup job. What does it say? It should point you to the source of the problem. Jonas -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.10.9/417 - Release Date: 2006-08-11 From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Aug 12 03:06:22 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:06:22 +0100 Subject: SMT hobby projects (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:08:16 +1200." Message-ID: <200608120806.JAA26989@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Ethan Dicks said: > While parts can slip or be pulled by solder wicking things around, a > few simple tricks (soldering corners of QFPs first, using scotch tape > to hold down a 1206 SMT resistor while soldering one end...) make > things a bit easier. It's easy enough to make up a simple spring-loaded device that holds the part in place on the board while you're soldering. I made one way back when and have used it ever since, makes life much easier. Basically it's a long arm that projects over the board with a spring loaded plunger at the end with a piece of a wooden toothpick to hold the component in place. A short lever allows you to raise the plunger for positioning. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Aug 12 05:44:50 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 06:44:50 -0400 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:00:07 +1200." Message-ID: <200608121044.k7CAiooa020314@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > >I _have_ thought about that for replacement -8/L and -8/i boards - Just curious, are there any machine readable schematics or netlists for the 8/I? (from my primative understanding an 8/i was made from a few different flip chips and a *lot* of backplane wirewrap - just wondering if that's machine readable anywhere) On another topic, I do SMT all the time. You do need a few tools - a nice maginifying lens w/light, tweezers, a very very fine tip (a low end metcal is very helpful). A special hot air gun is also helpful for removing parts with lots of pins. And if your pcb's are finished with "hasl" - hot air solder layer I find you don't need flux as much (but it does help). -brad From jim.p.davis at gmail.com Sat Aug 12 03:02:37 2006 From: jim.p.davis at gmail.com (Jim Davis) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 01:02:37 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? Message-ID: <51f388560608120102o4456b452r71184dcbb73a3e1a@mail.gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: Chuck Guzis wrote: I suspect that the legacy DIP stuff will get harder to buy new through "normal" channels, given RoHS. In the long run, I suppose we'd all better get used to working with surface mount. :( Nah, not anytime soon...unless I'm hallucinating, plenty of DIPs are available as RoHS compliant parts now. There's nothing "legacy" about DIPs just yet. That said, the notion that surface mount is somehow "harder to solder" is nothing but a load of crap. It is DIFFERENT...not harder. In fact, I find all but the very smallest SMT parts EASIER to work with than through-hole components. I suspect that someone, way back when, was afraid of it and said "it's to haaaard" and people have been propagating that rumor ever since. -Dave Dave, Close up SMD work when your pushing 40 or 50 is tricky. I can easely handle the finest pitch when I'm looking through a binoc microscope. It's quite amusing to see a 30 gauge blue wire and solder the size of a truck while trying to mod a board. Without optical assistance, I might as well be trying to neuter a fly with a butcher knife. Jim Davis. From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Aug 12 06:32:08 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 07:32:08 -0400 Subject: Source for Ethernet AUI/TP tranceivers? In-Reply-To: References: <1155306763.44dc950bbbea6@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <44DDBC38.8000809@gmail.com> David Griffith wrote: > On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: > >> Does anybody have a few they want to unload, or know of a good seller? >> Also, are all AUI/TP tranceivers equal or should I be looking for >> something better? > > See http://stores.ebay.com/anthonypanda. He's offering lots of ten for > $115 buy-it-now, shipping $22. I wouldn't spend more than $1 apiece for them, myself. I once bought 10 for $5. 10Base-FL transceivers on the other hand, I would pay more like $5 apiece. Peace... Sridhar From ray at arachelian.com Sat Aug 12 08:06:50 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:06:50 -0400 Subject: Mouse systems M4 Optical Mouse In-Reply-To: <010401c6bdd8$0a134b20$0b01a8c0@game> References: <010401c6bdd8$0a134b20$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <44DDD26A.7010702@arachelian.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > I have a Mouse Systems M4 model optical mouse that came with my Amiga 3000 but does not have the special mousepad needed for it, any way to fake one of those pads? > The only other available mouse I have is for the A1000 and has an angled connector that won't fit unless I jack the A3000 case up a few inches. > > How well did the M4s work anyway? I did plug it in to my machine and the buttons seem to work but I could not find a printed patterrn that would make the cursor do anything but barely move (The red LED does light up). I tend to like optical mice so this would be cool to have functioning. > I'm not familiar with this mouse, however there are two possibilities. The Xerox Star used an optical mouse which worked on a pad containing a pattern of dots. This can be xeroxed and the xerox works just fine. That said, with mine, I managed to get it working just fine on a tablecloth that had a bumpy square pattern, but it worked on almost any rough surface. You might try something with rough bumps? The other optical mouse that requires a special pad came with early Sun workstations. It looked a bit, well, holographic. It had a bunch of dots in it that reflected different based on where the mouse was. Perhaps you might be able to obtain this kind of mouse pad for it? From james.rice at gmail.com Sat Aug 12 08:13:50 2006 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 07:13:50 -0600 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <200608121044.k7CAiooa020314@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200608121044.k7CAiooa020314@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On 8/12/06, Brad Parker wrote: > On another topic, I do SMT all the time. You do need a few tools - a > nice maginifying lens w/light, tweezers, a very very fine tip (a low end > metcal is very helpful). A special hot air gun is also helpful for > removing parts with lots of pins. And if your pcb's are finished with > "hasl" - hot air solder layer I find you don't need flux as much (but it > does help). I picked up a surplus Hakko 850 hot air rework station for around $60, the nozzles run around $15-25 on ebay and MPJA has a hot tweezer setup for around $60. MPJA's price for a Hakko 851 clone is $99, so you can set up a fair SMT work area for a couple of hundred at the most. Some careful surplus and ebay shopping can minimize the cost if you aren't in a big hurry. James -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers www.blackcube.org/personal/index.html - Personal web page From ray at arachelian.com Sat Aug 12 08:16:35 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:16:35 -0400 Subject: Mouse systems M4 Optical Mouse In-Reply-To: <010401c6bdd8$0a134b20$0b01a8c0@game> References: <010401c6bdd8$0a134b20$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <44DDD4B3.7060004@arachelian.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > I have a Mouse Systems M4 model optical mouse that came with my Amiga 3000 but does not have the special mousepad needed for it, any way to fake one of those pads? > The only other available mouse I have is for the A1000 and has an angled connector that won't fit unless I jack the A3000 case up a few inches. > > How well did the M4s work anyway? I did plug it in to my machine and the buttons seem to work but I could not find a printed patterrn that would make the cursor do anything but barely move (The red LED does light up). I tend to like optical mice so this would be cool to have functioning. > This might help: http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-sparc/2001/10/13/0011.html and there's one on auction right now: http://cgi.ebay.com/SUN-3-Button-Mouse-Part-370-1170-01-Optical-Mat_W0QQitemZ190017472555QQihZ009QQcategoryZ23160QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Aug 12 07:18:51 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:18:51 -0400 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) Message-ID: <0J3V00BPKWSTJDPA@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) > From: Brad Parker > Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 06:44:50 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >"Ethan Dicks" wrote: >> >>I _have_ thought about that for replacement -8/L and -8/i boards - > >Just curious, are there any machine readable schematics or netlists >for the 8/I? > >(from my primative understanding an 8/i was made from a few different >flip chips and a *lot* of backplane wirewrap - just wondering if that's >machine readable anywhere) That decribes a fair amount of the 8i and 8l. One it's I've been looking for is if anyone has done a semiconductor memory for the 8e/f/m omnibus machines. There was a hex wide one for the 8A. I figure it would be handy for those that don't have enough core or fully functional core. Allison From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Aug 12 09:46:14 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:46:14 -0500 Subject: Source for Ethernet AUI/TP tranceivers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DDE9B6.9070307@brutman.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> The bad news is that I have a few more of these cards but the twisted pair >> connector is designed for LattisNet. LattisNet is a precursor to the standard >> Ethernet over twisted pair and it is supposed to be close, but my hubs aren't >> buying it. > > Do you know what the differences are? Does your ethernet card use a > standard chip for the twisted pair connector -- if so, can you trace out > the circuitry round it to see how it differs from a normal 10baseT > design. It might just be the connector pinout or something. > > -tony > > From what I can find it is a combination of voltage level and signalling differences, not just a pinout mapping problem. Under 'perfect' conditions with a little goat's blood spread around the room LattisNet and Ethernet of uTP are reputed to work, as LattisNet was very close to what became the standard. No joy for me. I thought the AUI transceivers grew on trees .. I don't mind paying some money, but to put things in perspective I bought the cards for $1.50 so I really don't want to pay 6 to 10x more for a commodity part. Mike From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 12 11:26:45 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:26:45 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: References: <44DBEBEE.4030105@dakotacom.net> <200608111345.47712.rtellason@verizon.net> <20060811203755.AF866BA4130@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200608111432030130.255CEF51@10.0.0.252> <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44DE0145.4060600@neurotica.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> I suspect that someone, way back when, was afraid of it and said >> "it's to haaaard" and people have been propagating that rumor ever since. s/to/too, duh. I really do know better. ;) > The electronics hobbyist magazines of the 1980s, especially in their > TV service columns, did not help the matter. > > Funny thing is that some of those same people moaned and griped when > those fancy new printed circuit boards were coming out in the 1950s. Really?? That was before my time (born in '69)...I had no idea people whined about the advent of PCBs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 12 11:35:11 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:35:11 -0400 Subject: Group buy for homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <068d9b601f7e436cb6c8c5e1ec4ebe41@valleyimplants.com> References: <068d9b601f7e436cb6c8c5e1ec4ebe41@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <44DE033F.10802@neurotica.com> Scott Quinn wrote: > >Yup, get ready to solder .2 mm balls on 800 balls BGA. >> Get your toaster-oven ready ;-) > > The really annoying thing about BGA is that I haven't figured a way to > desolder and reuse chips. Very vexing. Surface mount is good food...except BGA. What a huge pain in the butt. I understand the need for that sort of density, but PCB routing for BGA is a big pain, and as you stated, dealing with the chips physically really sucks. I've done *all* types of surface mount stuff in my home lab...except for BGA. The big show-stopper is the lack of means to inspect the soldering job. Eventually I hope to obtain a small X-ray machine (of the type used for bridge inspection, etc) to be able to check out the soldered balls. (soldered balls...ow!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 12 11:45:35 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:45:35 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608112042.29509.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608111432030130.255CEF51@10.0.0.252> <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608112042.29509.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44DE05AF.9010904@neurotica.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> That said, the notion that surface mount is somehow "harder to >> solder" is nothing but a load of crap. It is DIFFERENT...not harder. >> In fact, I find all but the very smallest SMT parts EASIER to work with >> than through-hole components. >> >> I suspect that someone, way back when, was afraid of it and said >> "it's to haaaard" and people have been propagating that rumor ever since. > > It's _SMALLER_ and these eyes ain't what they used to be! (Which really > sucks, but at least I can still see...) I have to grab for my lower-power > magnifier more often than not if I want to read a number off a chip or a > transistor, and I didn't used to have to do that. Good mangification solves that problem. I use an ancient but very effective Bausch & Lomb binocular 'scope with about 30x magnification. For larger stuff I use a boom-mounted magnifier with a circular fluorescent bulb around it. When I have more lab space (hopefully soon) I hope to set up a video magnification system, of the sort that vision-impaired people use for reading. That'll be a lot easier than bending over the microscope for hours at a time. > Couple that with half the darn things not even being marked at all, or being > marked in such a way that only makes sense if you have the datasheet, and > the're definitely much more of a PITA to deal with as far as I'm concerned. Well again, like I said, it's *different*. Trying to apply the same techniques used for through-hole parts is the wrong approach. When I buy a bag of 0.1uF bypass capacitors in through-hole packages, for example, I open the bag and dump them in to the parts drawer. When I buy a reel of surface-mount 0.1uF capacitors though, I leave them on the reel and store the reels in much larger parts drawers. You remove the parts from the tape one at a time as you use them...at that level there's no need to look at the parts themselves to identify them. I started through-hole PCB soldering in the 1970s when I was a kid, and I was terrified to move into SMT stuff but I had no choice...Once I tried it I realized that it's really quite nice...faster, cleaner, and generally easier to work with if you have the right tools and IF you don't try to treat it as just a different kind of through-hole construction. Now, I do SMT pretty much every day. Do give it a chance Roy, you may actually come to love it as I have. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 12 11:47:18 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:47:18 -0400 Subject: new acquisitions In-Reply-To: <00a701c6bd9f$14e59dc0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00a701c6bd9f$14e59dc0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <44DE0616.6070702@neurotica.com> Jay West wrote: > 2) DEC Microprocessors Handbook (poor condition, but I didn't have one, > so nice!). Wow...That's one of the very few Handbooks that I don't have. That's an excellent score. > 3) An MDB systems "MDB-DR11C". What exactly is this? Is it the same as a > DEC DR11C? What was it commonly used for? Also in the box was an ACT > "10015000" which I'm guessing may be a 4-slu card? Yes the MDB board is a DR11C-compatible parallel I/O interface. I've seen it used for lots of different things, mainly process control and stimulus/response testing. For a long time now I've wanted to write NetBSD drivers for those boards, to implement ioctl() calls for frobbing generic digital bits. As for the ACT board...got pics? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From vrs at msn.com Sat Aug 12 11:51:41 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:51:41 -0700 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) References: <200608121044.k7CAiooa020314@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: From: "Brad Parker" > "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > >I _have_ thought about that for replacement -8/L and -8/i boards - > > Just curious, are there any machine readable schematics or netlists > for the 8/I? Not that I am aware of. (I thought of creating one, but so far haven't convinced myself to do it.) > (from my primative understanding an 8/i was made from a few different > flip chips and a *lot* of backplane wirewrap - just wondering if that's > machine readable anywhere) If it were, it would make the job of replacing all that wire-wrap with a PCB tractable. It would also make it a lot easier to do things like make an 8/i in an FPGA :-). Vince From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 12 11:52:01 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:52:01 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> der Mouse wrote: > This sounds as though you're talking strictly about soldering them to a > printed-circuit board. If so, that's a lose right there, compared to > DIPs, if you can't connect to them (without equipment prohibitively > expensive for hobbyist use) except via a PCB. Well that's pretty much a given...there's really no other way to do that. If you have a chip that's only available in SMT, there are SMT<->through hole adapters that you can solder the chip to and then plug the whole thing into a breadboard or wire-wrap socket, but aside from that, yes, you do need a PCB. Quick-turn PCB houses are super cheap these days, though, and good software has been available for free for some time now. As I've said a few times, things are *different*...trying to treat it like "a smaller version of through-hole construction" will not work. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 12 11:55:07 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:55:07 -0400 Subject: SMT hobby projects (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DE07EB.1070801@neurotica.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I guess I just got lucky enough to get into SMT projects in the early > 1990s and didn't really worry about it. I can recommend that if you > are going to be doing a lot of them that the proper tools really make > things easier. I did a stint with a Dremmel-sized hot-air soldering > gun and an RF soldering iron and a foot-activated solder paste pump, > and I have to say that it was _nice_, but I don't own those tools > myself (wish I did). Even so, you can still do a lot with SOTs and > 1206 resistors and a 1/32" soldering iron tip and tools that you > _ought_ to own for through-hole projects. I bought a pneumatic solder paste pump for $75, and two different very high-end hot air pencils for $50 and $120, all on eBay over the past several years. The stuff is out there. $50 for an air pencil which will likely run for decades is not a bad investment in my opinion. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Aug 12 11:59:40 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:59:40 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44DE08FC.80101@dakotacom.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > der Mouse wrote: >> This sounds as though you're talking strictly about soldering them to a >> printed-circuit board. If so, that's a lose right there, compared to >> DIPs, if you can't connect to them (without equipment prohibitively >> expensive for hobbyist use) except via a PCB. > > Well that's pretty much a given...there's really no other way to do > that. If you have a chip that's only available in SMT, there are > SMT<->through hole adapters that you can solder the chip to and then > plug the whole thing into a breadboard or wire-wrap socket, but aside > from that, yes, you do need a PCB. > > Quick-turn PCB houses are super cheap these days, though, and good > software has been available for free for some time now. > > As I've said a few times, things are *different*...trying to treat it > like "a smaller version of through-hole construction" will not work. We'll be interested to see how your opinion changes when your eyes get 10 year older! ;-) From vrs at msn.com Sat Aug 12 11:58:49 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:58:49 -0700 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) References: <0J3V00BPKWSTJDPA@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: From: "Allison" > One it's I've been looking for is if anyone has done a semiconductor > memory for the 8e/f/m omnibus machines. There was a hex wide one for the > 8A. I figure it would be handy for those that don't have enough core or > fully functional core. That shouldn't be hard (other than the unobtainium bus transceivers). Is there a lot of interest in one of those? I just buy the core boards on eBay (though the prices lately seem a lot higher). Vince From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 12 12:00:10 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:00:10 -0400 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DE091A.1030401@neurotica.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I _have_ thought about that for replacement -8/L and -8/i boards - > design a simple board with, say, 4 to 6 16-pin SO pads and decoupling > caps and a dual row of jumper pads to cross-connect the edge fingers > to the various chip pads to be able to replicate, say, an M111 vs an > M117. The "problem" is that I doubt you could get real TTL (not > LS-TTL) parts in SO. I haven't experimented with replacing TTL with > LS parts in any of my -8s, so I don't know if there would be any > issues or not. So far, I've always had enough of the right things on > hand when I go to replace a chip on an M-series module. I would think > that the dimensions could be on the order of 2 x the size of just the > area of the fingers. > > The advantage, of course, is that it would be easy to make a large > number of these on one PCB panel, reducing per-unit costs. Using one > (or maybe two at most) base designs would also help quantity issues. > You could sit down one day and make a stack of a dozen M111s, then > make two dozen M113s the next day with the same PCB; just add the > right SO-parts and configure the jumpers in the right order, and there > you are. A variation on this theme might be to build a very small number of different types of boards, but with a CPLD on each one...a small, cheap one like a Xilinx XC9536 (something like $3/ea qty. 1)...then have a JTAG connector on each board, and squirt the "personality" into the board that way. I've not had a chance to work closely with FlipChip-based machines (unfortunately) so I don't know how much consistency there is on things like power pins and such, so I don't know if this'd be practical, but I think it's an interesting idea. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 12 12:04:11 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:04:11 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <51f388560608120102o4456b452r71184dcbb73a3e1a@mail.gmail.com> References: <51f388560608120102o4456b452r71184dcbb73a3e1a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44DE0A0B.8080700@neurotica.com> Jim Davis wrote: > Close up SMD work when your pushing 40 or 50 is tricky. I can easely handle > the finest pitch when I'm looking through a binoc microscope. It's quite > amusing to see a 30 gauge blue wire and solder the size of a truck while > trying to mod a board. Without optical assistance, I might as well be > trying > to neuter a fly with a butcher knife. Oh, definitely. For working with surface-mount components, magnification is as much a requirement as a soldering iron. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 12 12:05:03 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:05:03 -0400 Subject: SMT hobby projects (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <200608120806.JAA26989@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200608120806.JAA26989@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <44DE0A3F.3010206@neurotica.com> Stan Barr wrote: > It's easy enough to make up a simple spring-loaded device that holds > the part in place on the board while you're soldering. I made one > way back when and have used it ever since, makes life much easier. > Basically it's a long arm that projects over the board with a spring > loaded plunger at the end with a piece of a wooden toothpick to hold > the component in place. A short lever allows you to raise the plunger > for positioning. Can you put up photos of this? I'd love to see what you came up with. I think something like that would be very handy for me as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Aug 12 12:09:21 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Group buy for homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <44DE033F.10802@neurotica.com> References: <068d9b601f7e436cb6c8c5e1ec4ebe41@valleyimplants.com> <44DE033F.10802@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Aug 2006, Dave McGuire wrote: > Scott Quinn wrote: >> >Yup, get ready to solder .2 mm balls on 800 balls BGA. >>> Get your toaster-oven ready ;-) >> >> The really annoying thing about BGA is that I haven't figured a way to >> desolder and reuse chips. Very vexing. > > Surface mount is good food...except BGA. What a huge pain in the butt. I > understand the need for that sort of density, but PCB routing for BGA is a > big pain, and as you stated, dealing with the chips physically really sucks. > > I've done *all* types of surface mount stuff in my home lab...except for > BGA. The big show-stopper is the lack of means to inspect the soldering job. > Eventually I hope to obtain a small X-ray machine (of the type used for > bridge inspection, etc) to be able to check out the soldered balls. > > (soldered balls...ow!) > > -Dave If you make sure that the balls are really melted (they flatten out) you can usually get by by just sighting down under the BGA to make sure all the rows between the balls are clear ( no merged balls). This means that you need to do the BGA first so all sides are clear for visual inspection. I've done lots of BGA protos with nothing more than a hot are gun and a lot of flux (solder paste is not needed), they are really not so bad. (I've not done any with smaller pitch than .8 mm as the initial alignment gets a bit picky) > > -- > Dave McGuire > Cape Coral, FL > Peter Wallace From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Aug 12 12:14:27 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:14:27 -0400 Subject: Source for Ethernet AUI/TP tranceivers? In-Reply-To: <44DDBC38.8000809@gmail.com> References: <1155306763.44dc950bbbea6@webmail.secure-wi.com> <44DDBC38.8000809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060812171427.CB8F3BA4131@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > > On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: > > > >> Does anybody have a few they want to unload, or know of a good seller? > >> Also, are all AUI/TP tranceivers equal or should I be looking for > >> something better? > > > > See http://stores.ebay.com/anthonypanda. He's offering lots of ten for > > $115 buy-it-now, shipping $22. > > I wouldn't spend more than $1 apiece for them, myself. I once bought 10 > for $5. I'm of the same opinion but the last time I bought them was in the very late 90's, when they would show up on E-bay by the gross and get no bidders at the penny-a-piece level. In the past couple of years I've sent probably 50 of them to the junkpile. Anyone need thicknet transceivers? :-). Tim. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Aug 12 12:15:30 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:15:30 -0700 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <44DE091A.1030401@neurotica.com> References: <44DE091A.1030401@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44DE0CB2.2080106@dakotacom.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I _have_ thought about that for replacement -8/L and -8/i boards - >> design a simple board with, say, 4 to 6 16-pin SO pads and decoupling >> caps and a dual row of jumper pads to cross-connect the edge fingers >> to the various chip pads to be able to replicate, say, an M111 vs an >> M117. The "problem" is that I doubt you could get real TTL (not >> LS-TTL) parts in SO. I haven't experimented with replacing TTL with >> LS parts in any of my -8s, so I don't know if there would be any >> issues or not. So far, I've always had enough of the right things on >> hand when I go to replace a chip on an M-series module. I would think >> that the dimensions could be on the order of 2 x the size of just the >> area of the fingers. >> >> The advantage, of course, is that it would be easy to make a large >> number of these on one PCB panel, reducing per-unit costs. Using one >> (or maybe two at most) base designs would also help quantity issues. >> You could sit down one day and make a stack of a dozen M111s, then >> make two dozen M113s the next day with the same PCB; just add the >> right SO-parts and configure the jumpers in the right order, and there >> you are. > > A variation on this theme might be to build a very small number of > different types of boards, but with a CPLD on each one...a small, cheap > one like a Xilinx XC9536 (something like $3/ea qty. 1)...then have a > JTAG connector on each board, and squirt the "personality" into the > board that way. I've not had a chance to work closely with > FlipChip-based machines (unfortunately) so I don't know how much > consistency there is on things like power pins and such, so I don't know > if this'd be practical, but I think it's an interesting idea. I think that skirts the appeal of a *real* "miniture PDP". E.g., why not just do the whole design in an FPGA? It would be a pretty boring accomplishment... :-( OTOH, having the exact same design done in "miniature technology" would be cool! I've a friend who had a miniature pinball machine (intended as a "bar top" device). Roughly 10"x24" with everything scaled down (and made in stainless!). *That* was cool! From vrs at msn.com Sat Aug 12 12:23:42 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:23:42 -0700 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) References: <44DE091A.1030401@neurotica.com> Message-ID: From: "Dave McGuire" > A variation on this theme might be to build a very small number of > different types of boards, but with a CPLD on each one...a small, cheap > one like a Xilinx XC9536 (something like $3/ea qty. 1)...then have a > JTAG connector on each board, and squirt the "personality" into the > board that way. I've not had a chance to work closely with > FlipChip-based machines (unfortunately) so I don't know how much > consistency there is on things like power pins and such, so I don't know > if this'd be practical, but I think it's an interesting idea. The good news is that there are at least a dozen flipchips I can think of where that approach should work fine (provided your CPLD uses TTL levels). The bad news is that those flipchips are the most common ones. (Several are on ePay at the moment for $6+shipping.) The problem that I see, is nearly every device made out of flipchips uses one (usually more) of the harder to find flipchips. Worst are the green-handled Gxxx series, which typically have custom linear circuits on them. Also problematic are about half the Mxxx series, the ones that use open-collector outputs, negative logic voltage levels, etc. But much of my gear is looking for one or another of these "special" modules. Of course, the older Rxxx/Sxxx modules also use the negative levels, making them more difficult to do with modern logic components. (The Wxxx are a mixed bag; a little of everything, including simple connectors.) Vince From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 12 12:49:58 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:49:58 -0400 Subject: ID these boards? In-Reply-To: References: <200608111337.56224.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608111428140589.25597296@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608121349.58757.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 11 August 2006 11:18 pm, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Got any pictures? I'm curious to see what it looks like. Nope, but I do have the boards laying here. Gotta get a digital camera one of these days... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 12 12:55:51 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:55:51 -0400 Subject: EX2000 Floppy Drive Tester In-Reply-To: <3217.68.108.252.223.1155356051.squirrel@webmail9.pair.com> References: <200608120253.k7C2rha5019914@dewey.classiccmp.org> <3217.68.108.252.223.1155356051.squirrel@webmail9.pair.com> Message-ID: <200608121355.51585.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 12 August 2006 12:14 am, Jeff Davis wrote: > Hi, > > I ran across an interesting gadget at a university surplus sale, maybe > someone can tell me how useful it is. It's an EX 2000 Disk Drive Tester. > It came with a couple manuals and some 5.25" alignment floppies. The > manual says it's "used to align and repair floppy disk drives with industry > standard SA400 and SA800 interfaces", and says the connections on the end > are for 5.25" and 8" drives. Here's a photo: > > http://www.soupwizard.com/temp/ex2000.jpg > > I'm extremely unlikely to be doing any floppy repairs myself, so would this > be useful to anyone else? I used to do drive alignments way back when, and probably still have an alignment disk or two stashed away somewhere (though I never did get my hands on an 8" one :-). With 5.25" drives going away pretty much in the PC context, the bottom having dropped out of the commodore market some years back, and the price of 3.5" drives being what they are, I don't know how worth while it'd be to even bother with it. Not that I'd toss it if one of those were to come my way... Somewhere I also have a "drive exerciser" cartridge that plugged into a Yamaha CX-5 computer as well -- this was no doubt meant for their drive but would work equally well with any other drive that could be plugged in and powered up if you adjusted the value of the maximum track number, which was easy enough to do in the software since it ran in BASIC. It came in handy a few times. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 12 12:58:11 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:58:11 -0400 Subject: LCD question In-Reply-To: <200608112122380581.26D4D319@10.0.0.252> References: <000d01c6bda9$494db570$6c00a8c0@barry> <200608112122380581.26D4D319@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608121358.11424.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 12 August 2006 12:22 am, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/11/2006 at 8:50 PM Barry Watzman wrote: > >The backlight is just the two ends of a cold-cathode Fluorescent lamp tube > >6to 16 inches long, depending on the size of the LCD panel. > > Some of the older/smaller LCD displays use EL backlighting. Still need an > inverter to drive the thing, though. This one is definitely older/smaller than what he was talking about (not a laptop panel by any means!), and I'm thinking that's what's in there, based largely on the two wires being the same color (both red). What I'm wondering is whether or not there's any way to test the stuff connected to that point to find out what the heck it is... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Aug 12 13:18:36 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:18:36 -0500 Subject: Mouse systems M4 Optical Mouse In-Reply-To: <010401c6bdd8$0a134b20$0b01a8c0@game> References: <010401c6bdd8$0a134b20$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <44DE1B7C.9030506@brutman.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > I have a Mouse Systems M4 model optical mouse that came with my Amiga 3000 but does not have the special mousepad needed for it, any way to fake one of those pads? > The only other available mouse I have is for the A1000 and has an angled connector that won't fit unless I jack the A3000 case up a few inches. > > How well did the M4s work anyway? I did plug it in to my machine and the buttons seem to work but I could not find a printed patterrn that would make the cursor do anything but barely move (The red LED does light up). I tend to like optical mice so this would be cool to have functioning. > > > I've managed to create passable optical mouse pads using aluminum foil under a transparency that had grid lines printed on it from an ink-jet printer. Face the ink side on the transparency down to avoid smudging and don't crinkle the aluminum foil. It works well on my Mouse Systems optical mice from the mid 80s. The only problem I had was getting the grid spacing and the width of the lines correct. You want to 'break' the light, but too thick of a line is too much of a break. Also the spacing determines the resolution of the mouse. Wide spacing is great for control, but you wind up picking the mouse up and re-centering it quite a bit. Mike From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 12 13:32:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:32:43 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DE08FC.80101@dakotacom.net> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> <44DE08FC.80101@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608121132430606.29DF1F0E@10.0.0.252> On 8/12/2006 at 9:59 AM Don wrote: >We'll be interested to see how your opinion changes when your >eyes get 10 year older! ;-) I concur. As you get older, not only do your eyes grow less acute, but your hands grow less steady. Heck, I need a binocular loupe to read the newspaper. That being said, I've done some minor SMT PCB repairs; it's a pain to see and hold steady, but perhaps some creative tools can be worked out. As far as mounting things, at one time, there was a "do it yourself hot air" soldering tool for SMT. I can't find the link to it now. Cheers, Chuck _____________________________________ "There is no reason anyone in the right state of mind will want a computer in their home." - Ken Olson, President of Digital Equipment Corp, 1977. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 12 13:41:33 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:41:33 -0600 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: References: <0J3V00BPKWSTJDPA@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <44DE20DD.1060805@jetnet.ab.ca> vrs wrote: > From: "Allison" > >>One it's I've been looking for is if anyone has done a semiconductor >>memory for the 8e/f/m omnibus machines. There was a hex wide one for the >>8A. I figure it would be handy for those that don't have enough core or >>fully functional core. > > > That shouldn't be hard (other than the unobtainium bus transceivers). Is > there a lot of interest in one of those? > I think with a semiconductor memory, you can use standard bus transcivers since you now have fewer cards to deal with and bus loading is less. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 12 13:39:47 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:39:47 -0700 Subject: LCD question In-Reply-To: <200608121358.11424.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <000d01c6bda9$494db570$6c00a8c0@barry> <200608112122380581.26D4D319@10.0.0.252> <200608121358.11424.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608121139470720.29E597BC@10.0.0.252> On 8/12/2006 at 1:58 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >What I'm wondering is whether or not there's any way to test the stuff >connected to that point to find out what the heck it is... Well, if I were to take a guess at it, I'd first make sure that neither lead had any sort of continuity to ground or any other power or signal lead. If it's an EL panel, there's basically no resistive characteristic to it; it's purely capacitive. If a few tests bear that out (curve tracer?), I'd go ahead and try applying a moderate (~90 v) AC voltage to it ballasted through about a megohm and see if anything lights up. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Aug 12 13:49:10 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:49:10 -0400 Subject: Mouse systems M4 Optical Mouse References: <010401c6bdd8$0a134b20$0b01a8c0@game> <44DE1B7C.9030506@brutman.com> Message-ID: <005e01c6be3f$ffcd9cc0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael B. Brutman" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 2:18 PM Subject: Re: Mouse systems M4 Optical Mouse > Teo Zenios wrote: > > I have a Mouse Systems M4 model optical mouse that came with my Amiga 3000 but does not have the special mousepad needed for it, any way to fake one of those pads? > > The only other available mouse I have is for the A1000 and has an angled connector that won't fit unless I jack the A3000 case up a few inches. > > > > How well did the M4s work anyway? I did plug it in to my machine and the buttons seem to work but I could not find a printed patterrn that would make the cursor do anything but barely move (The red LED does light up). I tend to like optical mice so this would be cool to have functioning. > > > > > > > > I've managed to create passable optical mouse pads using aluminum foil > under a transparency that had grid lines printed on it from an ink-jet > printer. Face the ink side on the transparency down to avoid smudging > and don't crinkle the aluminum foil. > > It works well on my Mouse Systems optical mice from the mid 80s. The > only problem I had was getting the grid spacing and the width of the > lines correct. You want to 'break' the light, but too thick of a line > is too much of a break. Also the spacing determines the resolution of > the mouse. Wide spacing is great for control, but you wind up picking > the mouse up and re-centering it quite a bit. > > > Mike What resolution was the inkjet printer and how far were the lines spaced? All I have are 600 DPI laser printers and I might have some laser capable transparencies. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 12 13:52:03 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:52:03 -0400 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <44DE20DD.1060805@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0J3V00BPKWSTJDPA@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <44DE20DD.1060805@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44DE2353.8070708@neurotica.com> You wrote: > One it's I've been looking for is if anyone has done a semiconductor > memory for the 8e/f/m omnibus machines. There was a hex wide one for > the > 8A. I figure it would be handy for those that don't have enough core or > fully functional core. This has been done. I have a commercially-produced semiconductor Omnibus memory board. I'm not at home at the moment so I can't go check to see who made it. As far as homebrew...Chuck Dickman made one not too long ago, and I'm hoping to build a similar unit soon. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Aug 12 13:57:51 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:57:51 -0500 Subject: Mouse systems M4 Optical Mouse In-Reply-To: <005e01c6be3f$ffcd9cc0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <010401c6bdd8$0a134b20$0b01a8c0@game> <44DE1B7C.9030506@brutman.com> <005e01c6be3f$ffcd9cc0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <44DE24AF.6070705@brutman.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > What resolution was the inkjet printer and how far were the lines spaced? > All I have are 600 DPI laser printers and I might have some laser capable > transparencies. > > It was pretty crude - 720 DPI at most. I would think that 600 DPI is just fine. The original mousepad had blue lines, so I made blue lines as well. It probably doesn't matter that much - just experiment. Mike From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 12 13:54:07 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:54:07 -0400 Subject: LCD question In-Reply-To: <200608121139470720.29E597BC@10.0.0.252> References: <000d01c6bda9$494db570$6c00a8c0@barry> <200608121358.11424.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608121139470720.29E597BC@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608121454.07380.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 12 August 2006 02:39 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/12/2006 at 1:58 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >What I'm wondering is whether or not there's any way to test the stuff > >connected to that point to find out what the heck it is... > > Well, if I were to take a guess at it, I'd first make sure that neither > lead had any sort of continuity to ground or any other power or signal > lead. If it's an EL panel, there's basically no resistive characteristic > to it; it's purely capacitive. If a few tests bear that out (curve > tracer?), I'd go ahead and try applying a moderate (~90 v) AC voltage to > it ballasted through about a megohm and see if anything lights up. Sounds like a plan to me... 90VAC? They take that much? Hm. The other option I've got is to remove the metal bit that's on the front of the display, which has just some twist-tabs holding it in place. I'm reluctant to do so, though, because of having had some bad experiences in the past with those "zebra" connectors shifting and never quite working right after that. I'll figure something out. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From vrs at msn.com Sat Aug 12 14:22:52 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:22:52 -0700 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) References: <0J3V00BPKWSTJDPA@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <44DE20DD.1060805@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: "woodelf" > vrs wrote: > > From: "Allison" > >>One it's I've been looking for is if anyone has done a semiconductor > >>memory for the 8e/f/m omnibus machines. There was a hex wide one for the > >>8A. I figure it would be handy for those that don't have enough core or > >>fully functional core. > > > > That shouldn't be hard (other than the unobtainium bus transceivers). Is > > there a lot of interest in one of those? > > > I think with a semiconductor memory, you can use standard bus transcivers > since you now have fewer cards to deal with and bus loading is less. Agreed. Some kind of low leakage input gates (HCT?) and the AM26S10 would probably suffice. Certainly good enough to be useful, even if it didn't work in every machine out there. Vince From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Aug 12 12:35:53 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:35:53 +0100 Subject: SMT hobby projects (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:05:03 EDT." <44DE0A3F.3010206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608121735.SAA29617@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Dave McGuire said: > Stan Barr wrote: > > It's easy enough to make up a simple spring-loaded device that holds > > the part in place on the board while you're soldering. I made one > > way back when and have used it ever since, makes life much easier. > > Basically it's a long arm that projects over the board with a spring > > loaded plunger at the end with a piece of a wooden toothpick to hold > > the component in place. A short lever allows you to raise the plunger > > for positioning. > > Can you put up photos of this? I'd love to see what you came up > with. I think something like that would be very handy for me as well. I would, but my only intact digital camera, an Apple Quicktake - so on topic, has a battery contact corrosion problem that needs dismantling to get at. I'll try to draw a diagram to put up somewhere. It's a very crude device made from odd bits of wood and metal, but it does the job! So much to do, so little time... :-( -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 12 14:38:27 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:38:27 -0700 Subject: LCD question In-Reply-To: <200608121454.07380.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <000d01c6bda9$494db570$6c00a8c0@barry> <200608121358.11424.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608121139470720.29E597BC@10.0.0.252> <200608121454.07380.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608121238270336.2A1B4C19@10.0.0.252> On 8/12/2006 at 2:54 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >90VAC? They take that much? Hm. Yes--there was an inverter for it somewhere. EL typically doesn't draw much current, so an inverter from one of those "neon wire" kits should do fine, if you don't want to wire up your own. Frequency isn't very critical either. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 12 14:45:08 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:45:08 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DE08FC.80101@dakotacom.net> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> <44DE08FC.80101@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44DE2FC4.9050300@neurotica.com> Don wrote: >> Well that's pretty much a given...there's really no other way to do >> that. If you have a chip that's only available in SMT, there are >> SMT<->through hole adapters that you can solder the chip to and then >> plug the whole thing into a breadboard or wire-wrap socket, but aside >> from that, yes, you do need a PCB. >> >> Quick-turn PCB houses are super cheap these days, though, and good >> software has been available for free for some time now. >> >> As I've said a few times, things are *different*...trying to treat >> it like "a smaller version of through-hole construction" will not work. > > We'll be interested to see how your opinion changes when your > eyes get 10 year older! ;-) Well yeah. :-/ I'm 37 now...My eyes aren't great, but I'm fine with corrective lenses. I'm hoping that a new video magnifier will make SMT soldering less fatiguing for me. The binocular microscope I use now works very well and I like it, but I still squint a lot when peering through it. A video magnifier would allow me to look more "naturally" at the work and reduce eye fatigue considerably. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 12 14:49:47 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:49:47 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608121132430606.29DF1F0E@10.0.0.252> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> <44DE08FC.80101@dakotacom.net> <200608121132430606.29DF1F0E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44DE30DB.8060706@neurotica.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I concur. As you get older, not only do your eyes grow less acute, but > your hands grow less steady. Heck, I need a binocular loupe to read the > newspaper. That being said, I've done some minor SMT PCB repairs; it's a > pain to see and hold steady, but perhaps some creative tools can be worked > out. I'm lucky in that regard, as my hands seem to be steadier than most. But good tools can indeed address that problem. Manual pick & place tools are around, though a bit expensive...But I think such a thing would be pretty easy to construct in a workshop with minimal effort. > As far as mounting things, at one time, there was a "do it yourself hot > air" soldering tool for SMT. I can't find the link to it now. Well with even high-end hot air systems showing up on eBay regularly for well under $100, why bother? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Aug 12 14:57:54 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:57:54 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608121132430606.29DF1F0E@10.0.0.252> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> <44DE08FC.80101@dakotacom.net> <200608121132430606.29DF1F0E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44DE32C2.3050709@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/12/2006 at 9:59 AM Don wrote: > >> We'll be interested to see how your opinion changes when your >> eyes get 10 year older! ;-) > > I concur. As you get older, not only do your eyes grow less acute, but > your hands grow less steady. Yup. And changing focal distance becomes a noticeable "pause" (e.g., looking from the magnified view of the object to the *actual* object requires a small but measurable amount of time before you can proceed). I hooked up a small B&W camera (I find the LACK of color makes the image easier to discern!) to a 14 inch LCD panel (I don't have room for an extra monitor on my bench -- and the LCD I can put on an articulated arm so it swings out of the way) for close in work. But, it's still a chore. I now strongly discourage clients from asking me to build the prototypes and only do this sort of thing for my own products (where I want first-hand experience with any manufacturing problems that I might not have foreseen when designing the packaging, laying out the boards, etc.) > Heck, I need a binocular loupe to read the Ah. Stop reading the newspaper! ;-) > newspaper. That being said, I've done some minor SMT PCB repairs; it's a > pain to see and hold steady, but perhaps some creative tools can be worked > out. > > As far as mounting things, at one time, there was a "do it yourself hot > air" soldering tool for SMT. I can't find the link to it now. I bought a Leister many years ago. Pricey, at the time, but quite worth it. I use a low grade adhesive to hold stubborn parts in place. I've found that using paste and a good dispenser lets many parts "self-locate" (if you've got a good mask on the board). Always amusing to watch them "float" into place :> From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 12 14:56:52 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:56:52 -0400 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <44DE0CB2.2080106@dakotacom.net> References: <44DE091A.1030401@neurotica.com> <44DE0CB2.2080106@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44DE3284.3060700@neurotica.com> Don wrote: >> A variation on this theme might be to build a very small number of >> different types of boards, but with a CPLD on each one...a small, >> cheap one like a Xilinx XC9536 (something like $3/ea qty. 1)...then >> have a JTAG connector on each board, and squirt the "personality" into >> the board that way. I've not had a chance to work closely with >> FlipChip-based machines (unfortunately) so I don't know how much >> consistency there is on things like power pins and such, so I don't >> know if this'd be practical, but I think it's an interesting idea. > > I think that skirts the appeal of a *real* "miniture PDP". > E.g., why not just do the whole design in an FPGA? It would > be a pretty boring accomplishment.... :-( Huh? I don't think so, at least not for me. I'm totally in love with my SBC6120, which is at least a move in that direction. I can run it 24/7 and just have it available on a serial port which I can get to when I'm not home, for some OS/8 hacking when I get the itch. That said, though, it'll never replace my "real" -8 machines. I have several 8/e and one 8/m system, sadly no others...anybody got one (8/i, 8/l maybe) that might be up for trade? > OTOH, having the exact same design done in "miniature > technology" would be cool! > > I've a friend who had a miniature pinball machine (intended > as a "bar top" device). Roughly 10"x24" with everything > scaled down (and made in stainless!). *That* was cool! Wow, that does sound cool! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 12 14:59:36 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:59:36 -0400 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: References: <44DE091A.1030401@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44DE3328.8070103@neurotica.com> vrs wrote: > The good news is that there are at least a dozen flipchips I can think > of where that approach should work fine (provided your CPLD uses TTL > levels). > The bad news is that those flipchips are the most common ones. (Several > are on ePay at the moment for $6+shipping.) > > The problem that I see, is nearly every device made out of flipchips > uses one (usually more) of the harder to find flipchips. Worst are > the green-handled Gxxx series, which typically have custom linear > circuits on them. Also problematic are about half the Mxxx series, > the ones that use open-collector outputs, negative logic voltage > levels, etc. But much of my gear is looking for one or another of > these "special" modules. > > Of course, the older Rxxx/Sxxx modules also use the negative levels, > making them more difficult to do with modern logic components. (The > Wxxx are a mixed bag; a little of everything, including simple connectors.) Hmm yes, that would be problematic. :-( I don't know of a way around that problem offhand. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Aug 12 15:03:21 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:03:21 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DE2FC4.9050300@neurotica.com> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> <44DE08FC.80101@dakotacom.net> <44DE2FC4.9050300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44DE3409.8080000@dakotacom.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > Don wrote: >>> Well that's pretty much a given...there's really no other way to do >>> that. If you have a chip that's only available in SMT, there are >>> SMT<->through hole adapters that you can solder the chip to and then >>> plug the whole thing into a breadboard or wire-wrap socket, but aside >>> from that, yes, you do need a PCB. >>> >>> Quick-turn PCB houses are super cheap these days, though, and good >>> software has been available for free for some time now. >>> >>> As I've said a few times, things are *different*...trying to treat >>> it like "a smaller version of through-hole construction" will not work. >> >> We'll be interested to see how your opinion changes when your >> eyes get 10 year older! ;-) > > Well yeah. :-/ I'm 37 now...My eyes aren't great, but I'm fine with > corrective lenses. I'm hoping that a new video magnifier will make SMT > soldering less fatiguing for me. The binocular microscope I use now > works very well and I like it, but I still squint a lot when peering > through it. A video magnifier would allow me to look more "naturally" > at the work and reduce eye fatigue considerably. You'll find that you'll have trouble each time you look away from the magnified image -- and then back again, etc. As you get older, your eyes' abilities to focus on as wide a range diminishes. And, the *rate* at which they focus decreases. Also, changes in light intensity seem to require a noticeable adjustment period (e.g., looking at a light emitting image vs. the ambient light on your worksurface, etc.) I've tried illuminated magnifiers, CCTV, a small rework microscope, etc. Each one reminds me that my eyes aren't what they used to be! It's not too bad if you stick to bigger SMT devices. But, when you've got *8* leads on a 1206 size package... :-( (e.g., the Leister will blow it clear across the room before you realize it!) Getting old is *such* fun! :-/ From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Aug 12 15:07:07 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:07:07 -0700 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <44DE3284.3060700@neurotica.com> References: <44DE091A.1030401@neurotica.com> <44DE0CB2.2080106@dakotacom.net> <44DE3284.3060700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44DE34EB.7070101@dakotacom.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > Don wrote: >>> A variation on this theme might be to build a very small number of >>> different types of boards, but with a CPLD on each one...a small, >>> cheap one like a Xilinx XC9536 (something like $3/ea qty. 1)...then >>> have a JTAG connector on each board, and squirt the "personality" >>> into the board that way. I've not had a chance to work closely with >>> FlipChip-based machines (unfortunately) so I don't know how much >>> consistency there is on things like power pins and such, so I don't >>> know if this'd be practical, but I think it's an interesting idea. >> >> I think that skirts the appeal of a *real* "miniture PDP". >> E.g., why not just do the whole design in an FPGA? It would >> be a pretty boring accomplishment.... :-( > > Huh? I don't think so, at least not for me. I'm totally in love with > my SBC6120, which is at least a move in that direction. I can run it > 24/7 and just have it available on a serial port which I can get to when > I'm not home, for some OS/8 hacking when I get the itch. But, you can make the move all the way "in that direction" and just run an emulator. :> I.e. the appeal is having the actual hardware. And, while PDP's are reasonably commonplace, having a *tiny* one (imagine a 10x10x10 8/i sitting on your COFFEE TABLE :> ) would be truly unique. > That said, though, it'll never replace my "real" -8 machines. I have > several 8/e and one 8/m system, sadly no others...anybody got one (8/i, > 8/l maybe) that might be up for trade? > >> OTOH, having the exact same design done in "miniature >> technology" would be cool! >> >> I've a friend who had a miniature pinball machine (intended >> as a "bar top" device). Roughly 10"x24" with everything >> scaled down (and made in stainless!). *That* was cool! > > Wow, that does sound cool! Quite interesting as the ballistics are very different as you scale things down. And, the mechanisms need to be completely reengineered as they don't scale well, either! From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 12 15:22:05 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:22:05 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DE3409.8080000@dakotacom.net> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> <44DE08FC.80101@dakotacom.net> <44DE2FC4.9050300@neurotica.com> <44DE3409.8080000@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608121322050928.2A4340DE@10.0.0.252> On 8/12/2006 at 1:03 PM Don wrote: >Getting old is *such* fun! :-/ As the old saw goes, Don, "Consider the alternative". I well remember a teacher who once told me "Don't get old. You won't like it." Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 12 15:29:31 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:29:31 -0600 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <44DE34EB.7070101@dakotacom.net> References: <44DE091A.1030401@neurotica.com> <44DE0CB2.2080106@dakotacom.net> <44DE3284.3060700@neurotica.com> <44DE34EB.7070101@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44DE3A2B.3090008@jetnet.ab.ca> Don wrote: >> Huh? I don't think so, at least not for me. I'm totally in love >> with my SBC6120, which is at least a move in that direction. I can >> run it 24/7 and just have it available on a serial port which I can >> get to when I'm not home, for some OS/8 hacking when I get the itch. > But, you can make the move all the way "in that direction" > and just run an emulator. :> I.e. the appeal is having > the actual hardware. And, while PDP's are reasonably > commonplace, having a *tiny* one (imagine a 10x10x10 8/i > sitting on your COFFEE TABLE :> ) would be truly unique. The SBC1620 is tiny -- the PCB is 6" x 4 1/4". My problem is all I got is Pee-cee parts like a power supply and case. That is the parts that are harder to find here. >> That said, though, it'll never replace my "real" -8 machines. I >> have several 8/e and one 8/m system, sadly no others...anybody got one >> (8/i, 8/l maybe) that might be up for trade? Boy that shows our age ... PDP-8's are modern machines still. :) Well at least you know what speed the machine ran at, with todays marketing double talk and bloatware who knows what they run at. PS. Anybody got a DEAD 8 I stuff my SBC1620 in Canada? From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Aug 12 15:30:39 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:30:39 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608121322050928.2A4340DE@10.0.0.252> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> <44DE08FC.80101@dakotacom.net> <44DE2FC4.9050300@neurotica.com> <44DE3409.8080000@dakotacom.net> <200608121322050928.2A4340DE@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44DE3A6F.2050506@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/12/2006 at 1:03 PM Don wrote: > >> Getting old is *such* fun! :-/ > > As the old saw goes, Don, "Consider the alternative". "I want to die in my sleep, like my Grandfather. Not SCREAMING like all the people on the bus he was driving..." > I well remember a teacher who once told me "Don't get old. You won't like > it." Yeah, amazing how *suddenly* all the stuff your folks et al. told you "makes sense"! :-( From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 12 15:29:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:29:29 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DE32C2.3050709@dakotacom.net> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> <44DE08FC.80101@dakotacom.net> <200608121132430606.29DF1F0E@10.0.0.252> <44DE32C2.3050709@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608121329290029.2A4A03B7@10.0.0.252> On 8/12/2006 at 12:57 PM Don wrote: >I hooked up a small B&W camera (I find the LACK of color makes >the image easier to discern!) to a 14 inch LCD panel (I don't >have room for an extra monitor on my bench -- and the LCD I >can put on an articulated arm so it swings out of the way) >for close in work. But, it's still a chore. I'dve thought that the lack of depth perception/stereo vision would get in the way. But then mine has never been very good. Even as a young man, I found it nearly impossible to position the two ends of a #20 platinum/platium-rhodium thermocouple wire for welding in an oxy-acetylene flame. Just couldn't make them line up. Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 12 15:50:19 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:50:19 -0500 (CDT) Subject: SMT hobby projects (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) Message-ID: <200608122050.k7CKoJb9070854@keith.ezwind.net> --- Dave McGuire wrote: >> snip << > > I bought a pneumatic solder paste pump for $75, > and two different > very high-end hot air pencils for $50 and $120, al l > on eBay over the > past several years. The stuff is out there. $50 > for an air pencil > which will likely run for decades is not a bad > investment in my opinion. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Cape Coral, FL > As a newish member and someone not experienced in circuit board repairs/modification, could someone please explain what they (the pneumatic solder paste pump and the hot-air pencil) do, please? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Aug 12 15:31:56 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:31:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mouse systems M4 Optical Mouse In-Reply-To: <44DDD26A.7010702@arachelian.com> References: <010401c6bdd8$0a134b20$0b01a8c0@game> <44DDD26A.7010702@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200608122039.QAA18564@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The other optical mouse that requires a special pad came with early > Sun workstations. It looked a bit, well, holographic. It had a > bunch of dots in it that reflected different based on where the mouse > was. Actually, it has lines of one colour running vertically and lines of another colour running horizontally, against a shiny background. To my eye, the vertical lines look blue and the horizontal lines grey; I suspect there is a reflectance characteristic my eye is not capable of picking up there, especially as one of the LEDs in the mouse is giving off invisible light (again, to my eye). The visibly-lit LED looks red to me, and (based on covering each LED in turn and seeing which dimension's motion breaks) goes with the blue lines (not surprisingly); the invisible-light LED goes with the grey-appearing lines. If you can find suitable inks, printing vertical and horizontal lines on a shiny surface should do fine - but beware that such mouse pads exist in at least two and I think three different resolutions; while a mouse designed for a fine-resolution pad works fine with a coarser pad, the converse is not true. If you want I can approximate the line spacing of the mouse pads I have, with a ruler or tape measure and some careful counting. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Aug 12 15:40:10 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:40:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DE05AF.9010904@neurotica.com> References: <200608111432030130.255CEF51@10.0.0.252> <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608112042.29509.rtellason@verizon.net> <44DE05AF.9010904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608122042.QAA18598@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Couple that with half the darn things not even being marked at all, >> or being marked in such a way that only makes sense if you have the >> datasheet, and the're definitely much more of a PITA to deal with >> as far as I'm concerned. > Well again, like I said, it's *different*. [...] When I buy a bag > of 0.1uF bypass capacitors in through-hole packages, for example, I > open the bag and dump them in to the parts drawer. When I buy a reel > of surface-mount 0.1uF capacitors though, I leave them on the reel > and store the reels in much larger parts drawers. You remove the > parts from the tape one at a time as you use them...at that level > there's no need to look at the parts themselves to identify them. At that point, no. But that's treating the boards as build-only designs, which makes about as much sense as writing write-only code. When you're trying to figure out what's on an existing board, or when you're trying to figure out why something doesn't work and it's because you put a wrong-value part in place, markings are important. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 12 15:46:23 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:46:23 -0400 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <44DE3A2B.3090008@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <44DE091A.1030401@neurotica.com> <44DE0CB2.2080106@dakotacom.net> <44DE3284.3060700@neurotica.com> <44DE34EB.7070101@dakotacom.net> <44DE3A2B.3090008@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44DE3E1F.5020802@neurotica.com> You wrote: >> Huh? I don't think so, at least not for me. I'm totally in love >> with my SBC6120, which is at least a move in that direction. I can >> run it 24/7 and just have it available on a serial port which I can >> get to when I'm not home, for some OS/8 hacking when I get the itch. > > But, you can make the move all the way "in that direction" > and just run an emulator. :> Eh. I use emulators frequently, but there's more to classic computing than software. > I.e. the appeal is having the actual hardware. Exactly. :) > And, while PDP's are reasonably > commonplace, having a *tiny* one (imagine a 10x10x10 8/i > sitting on your COFFEE TABLE :> ) would be truly unique. Absolutely! > The SBC1620 is tiny -- the PCB is 6" x 4 1/4". My problem is > all I got is Pee-cee parts like a power supply and case. > That is the parts that are harder to find here. I think it's time to take up a collection for you. ;) >> That said, though, it'll never replace my "real" -8 machines. I >> have several 8/e and one 8/m system, sadly no others...anybody got >> one (8/i, 8/l maybe) that might be up for trade? > > Boy that shows our age ... PDP-8's are modern machines still. :) Well it depends on your definition of "modern". There are people who seem to think x86 is "modern"...PDP-8s were still in their heyday when that train wreck of an architecture was designed! > Well at least you know what speed the machine ran at, with todays > marketing double talk and bloatware who knows what they run at. Yup. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Aug 12 15:55:19 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:55:19 -0500 Subject: Need quantity of old school PC monochrome adaptors ($$$) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DE4037.3070805@brutman.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > I'm in need of 10 monochrome adaptor cards for the PC. I'll pay $10 each > in any quantity plus shipping. > > Please send your offerings directly to me. I do not read the list. I > need these ASAP. > > Thanks! > Is it not rude to presume that we all subscribe to this list so that we can read and try the fill the urgent requests of others who post to the list but won't bother reading it? Mike From trag at io.com Sat Aug 12 15:37:11 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:37:11 -0500 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608120751.k7C7pjRa024797@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608120751.k7C7pjRa024797@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:58:16 -0600 >From: "e.stiebler" >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 8/11/2006 at 4:37 PM shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: > >> I suspect that the legacy DIP stuff will get harder to buy new through >> "normal" channels, given RoHS. In the long run, I suppose we'd all better >> get used to working with surface mount. :( > >Yup, get ready to solder .2 mm balls on 800 balls BGA. >Get your toaster-oven ready ;-) BGA components have a specification for the clearance between the chip package and the circuit board after soldering. I don't think you could meet that just by putting the thing in the oven. However, it might be interesting to get some feeler guages the same thickness as the clearance that that specification calls for, place the feeler guages around the edges of the chip between the chip and the board and then heat the chip and board until the chip presses down on the feeler guages. That *should* give the proper clearance and therefore the appropriate solder ball "squish". I don't know how one reballs BGA components though. Anyone care to explain? Jeff Walther From trag at io.com Sat Aug 12 15:53:26 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:53:26 -0500 Subject: async designs In-Reply-To: <200608120751.k7C7pjRa024797@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608120751.k7C7pjRa024797@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:58:56 -0700 >From: Brent Hilpert >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> At one time async logic was a hot topic. > >The IAS machine (von Neumann/late 1940s) is listed in various places (under >'clock rate') as being 'async'. (And - annoyingly - those listings then don't >provide an effective instruction rate for the sake of comparison). > >I've been curious as to more precisely how the timing was accomplished in that >(those) machines. Offhand, I suspect you still end up with delay elements in >the design at various points to ensure some group (worst case) of >signals/paths >are all ready/stable at some point and you end with a more-or-less 'effective >clock rate' anyways and don't gain much. > >Such all started with ENIAC didn't it?, which - based on what I've been able >to find/read - could be described as an async design. >Was async still being discussed in the 60's? I worked on some "non-clocked" logic designs for a little company called Theseus. As far as I know they're still in business. It's been a while, so my memory is hazy and it was definitely unconventional design. The basic scheme (IIRC) was to use two wires per bit of information. Three of the four possible states were used. '0' and '1' were two of the states and 'ready' was the third state, except I don't think they called it 'ready' but that'll do for this discussion. When you reached a set of registers (flops) in the logic (say a grouping of 8 bits for a bus) you'd have 'acknowledge' logic which would would signal back upstream that it was ready for the next computation. It depended on all eight registers reaching a data state (0 or 1) before it signaled ready back upstream. Then and this is where I get hazy, all the registers would get reset to the ready state before the next set of data is processed. I think. It really has been a while. So, in practice, you have 2 to 4 times as much logic because you have two wires per bit plus acknowledge logic flowing back upstream. On the other hand, if nothing is being processed, then your circuitry is idle and not switching. This can save a bundle of power depending on the application. Additionally, the logic pipeline can operate as fast as it possibly can, without being held back by a clock. So in some cases one gains speed. And you don't have to worry about routing finicky clocks all over the chip. Still, you have the overhead of those acknowledge signals. Plus, being an unconventional logic, there are not sophisticated tools and libraries available, so it takes longer to design for and requires more design discipline from the designer. If you applied the same amount of effort and discipline to conventional design, you might end up with something just as good or better, but the non-clocked logic paradigm forces the extra effort. Supposedly, non-clocked logic can also offer greater security because there's no clock signal for remote sensors to key on when trying to sense what the CPU is doing. This seemed a little odd to me. Do espionage types really try to sense what a processor is doing remotely, based on the EM emissions from the chip? Jeff Walther From trag at io.com Sat Aug 12 15:38:37 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:38:37 -0500 Subject: LCD question In-Reply-To: <200608120751.k7C7pjRa024797@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608120751.k7C7pjRa024797@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:41:31 -0400 >From: "Evan Koblentz" > Ah ... that's a relief, LOL I thought you were saying you'd never heard of >WD! > Well, there's a company called Western Design. They design ICs as far as I can tell. I don't know if there's any relationship to Western Digital, but they seem to go by WD also. Jeff Walther From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Aug 12 15:48:43 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:48:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608122058.QAA18709@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> This sounds as though you're talking strictly about soldering them >> to a printed-circuit board. If so, that's a lose right there, >> compared to DIPs, if you can't connect to them (without equipment >> prohibitively expensive for hobbyist use) except via a PCB. > Well that's pretty much a given...there's really no other way to do > that. [...] So, there's a fairly clear way in which surface-mount is harder to work with than DIPs: you can't breadboard the things, and doing flying leads is (at best) a good deal harder. > Quick-turn PCB houses are super cheap these days, though, Hm? So moving to SMT means that instead of buying a $1.19 part to breadboard a circuit with, I instead can buy a $0.89 part and throw $12.99 at the minimum order for a PCB so I can connect to it. Remind me again how surface mount is better? Oh, okay, let's say I can bundle ten chips' PCBs into that order. So I have $0.89+$1.299. This is still a dollar more than the $1.19 DIP. > As I've said a few times, things are *different*...trying to treat it > like "a smaller version of through-hole construction" will not work. Different...and harder, it appears, since at a minimum you need less common (and more expensive) tools, and that's if you're doing a finished design and just trying to assemble the thing. If you're breadboarding, even your parts are more expensive, since you have to add the piggyback carrier to the part cost. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Aug 12 16:04:19 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:04:19 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608121329290029.2A4A03B7@10.0.0.252> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> <44DE08FC.80101@dakotacom.net> <200608121132430606.29DF1F0E@10.0.0.252> <44DE32C2.3050709@dakotacom.net> <200608121329290029.2A4A03B7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44DE4253.2020803@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/12/2006 at 12:57 PM Don wrote: > >> I hooked up a small B&W camera (I find the LACK of color makes >> the image easier to discern!) to a 14 inch LCD panel (I don't >> have room for an extra monitor on my bench -- and the LCD I >> can put on an articulated arm so it swings out of the way) >> for close in work. But, it's still a chore. > > I'dve thought that the lack of depth perception/stereo vision would get in I usually work on a board that is "tipped" (i.e. not "normal" to my view plane). It's a compromise :-( I usually have to move the board around quite a lot to get a good feel for what I am doing (and it can get dizzying seeing those greatly magnified abrupt motions on the screen!) As any tradesman will tell you, every tool is a poor substitute (in some way) from your own body parts :> > the way. But then mine has never been very good. Even as a young man, I > found it nearly impossible to position the two ends of a #20 > platinum/platium-rhodium thermocouple wire for welding in an oxy-acetylene > flame. Just couldn't make them line up. No *kids*, eh, Chuck? ;) I accompanied my Dad on a visit to one of his eye doctors many years ago. Shortly after starting the exam, the doctor lowered the room lights, had my Dad cover his "good" eye, then held his hand up and waved his fingers: "Can you see my hand, Donald?" I chuckled thinking it was a joke :-( From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Aug 12 16:04:55 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 09:04:55 +1200 Subject: Mouse systems M4 Optical Mouse In-Reply-To: <200608122039.QAA18564@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <010401c6bdd8$0a134b20$0b01a8c0@game> <44DDD26A.7010702@arachelian.com> <200608122039.QAA18564@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On 8/13/06, der Mouse wrote: > > The other optical mouse that requires a special pad came with early > > Sun workstations. It looked a bit, well, holographic. It had a > > bunch of dots in it that reflected different based on where the mouse > > was. > > Actually, it has lines of one colour running vertically and lines of > another colour running horizontally, against a shiny background. To my > eye, the vertical lines look blue and the horizontal lines grey; I > suspect there is a reflectance characteristic my eye is not capable of > picking up there, especially as one of the LEDs in the mouse is giving > off invisible light (again, to my eye). In a standard Sun-type optical mouse, one LED is indeed infrared. One problem they develop with age is that the LEDs dim at different rates and the IR LED dims to the point of ineffectiveness before the red one. http://www.bjnet.edu.cn/sun-admin/FAQ/F-comp-sys-sun/Q54-0.html (unfortunately, the repair URL it gives doesn't work for me) > If you can find suitable inks, printing vertical and horizontal lines > on a shiny surface should do fine - but beware that such mouse pads > exist in at least two and I think three different resolutions; while a > mouse designed for a fine-resolution pad works fine with a coarser pad, > the converse is not true. If you want I can approximate the line > spacing of the mouse pads I have, with a ruler or tape measure and > some careful counting. Yes... in the case of Sun mice, there are two grid resolutions of mouse pads, and, IIRC, the coarser one goes with Sun3 and early Sun4-type mice (the beige blocky ones). Later mice (bluish color scheme) used the higher-resolution pads. While it may not sound that Sun information is relevant, Mouse Systems made the vast bulk of optical mice in the ball-mouse era. What changed from mouse to mouse was the host interface. Suns need 4800baud serial, Amigas take raw quadrature (one should be able to easily adapt an MS Bus Mouse to work with the Amiga). -ethan From trag at io.com Sat Aug 12 16:09:18 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:09:18 -0500 Subject: SMT hobby projects (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <200608120751.k7C7pjRa024797@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608120751.k7C7pjRa024797@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:08:16 +1200 >From: "Ethan Dicks" >Subject: SMT hobby projects (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) >On 8/12/06, der Mouse wrote: >> > That said, the notion that surface mount is somehow "harder to >> > solder" is nothing but a load of crap. It is DIFFERENT...not harder. >> >> I've never tried surface-mount chips. But I've tried soldering things >> of similar size, and for me, yes, it *is* harder. > >While parts can slip or be pulled by solder wicking things around, a >few simple tricks (soldering corners of QFPs first, using scotch tape >to hold down a 1206 SMT resistor while soldering one end...) make >things a bit easier. >I put together an IOB6120 (QFP FPGA, 0.5mm-pitch TSOP FLASH...) with a >Weller iron and no special tools... just solder wick for clean-up, and >a flux pen to help everything flow nice and cleanly. I've also done a >few CF connectors for a couple of Spare Time Gizmos projects (Elf2000 >disk board, MP3 player...) To be fair, I wasn't doing it with over-40 >eyes, but I expect that someday, I'll have to start using my bench >lens/light for everyday stuff. I agree with Ethan. Surface mount is different but not necessarily harder. I find desoldering through-hole to be many times harder than desoldering surface mount. I *hate* desoldering through-hole components, if I need to do it non-destructively. If I can destroy the component in the process it's not as bad, just tedious--very very tedious. I've desoldered and resoldered up to 208 pin QFPs so far. I've only done a couple of those. Mostly I did 160 pin QFPs. But I have not had a failure yet. That is, the chips always remained functional. There were one or two times where I had to touch up the soldering job to get the board fucntional--I sometimes remove too much solder during clean up. The trick to surface mount soldering is being aware of how surface tension can work for you and using it. It's a different set of habits and way of thinking from through-hole. I did my 208 pin QFP desolder/resolder with some Chip Quik alloy, a Milwaukee brand heat gun, modeling clay (to keep surrounding components from blowing away) a 40 watt and a 15 watt soldering pencil from Radio Shack and a little bottle of soldering flux with a brush. Oh, I guess there was a roll of solder and some spray can flux cleaner, as well as swabs and alcohol involved. But nothing expensive or exotic. Up to about 40 or 50 pins, I don't need the heat gun. The soldering pencils are sufficient. For surface mount resistors, I usually tin one pad. Then heat that pad with a pencil in one hand and place the resistor with tweezers in the other hand. Hold in place with the tweezers and remove the pencil so that the solder cools to hold the resistor in place. For magnification I use a 10X magnifying cup and hold the big end in my eye socket by squishing it into the skin around the eye, sort of like a monacle. The last time I checked these were available in the jewelry section of Ebay for under $5. Jeff Walther From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Aug 12 17:07:25 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:07:25 -0500 Subject: EX2000 Floppy Drive Tester In-Reply-To: <200608121355.51585.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <3217.68.108.252.223.1155356051.squirrel@webmail9.pair.com> Message-ID: <200608122110.k7CLAe64032030@monisys.caonisys.ca> > Not that I'd toss it if one of those were to come my way... > > Somewhere I also have a "drive exerciser" cartridge that plugged into a Yamaha > CX-5 computer as well -- this was no doubt meant for their drive but would > work equally well with any other drive that could be plugged in and powered > up if you adjusted the value of the maximum track number, which was easy > enough to do in the software since it ran in BASIC. It came in handy a few > times. What exactly does the "drive excerciser" do which comes in handy? -- I've got some diagnostics and drive test tools built into ImageDisk which I find very useful, and I'd be happy to add any other such functions that folks need (provided of course that it can be done with the PC hardware). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 12 16:36:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:36:57 -0700 Subject: EX2000 Floppy Drive Tester In-Reply-To: <200608122110.k7CLAe64032030@monisys.caonisys.ca> References: <3217.68.108.252.223.1155356051.squirrel@webmail9.pair.com> <200608122110.k7CLAe64032030@monisys.caonisys.ca> Message-ID: <200608121436570361.2A87C95B@10.0.0.252> On 8/12/2006 at 5:07 PM Dave Dunfield wrote: >What exactly does the "drive excerciser" do which comes in handy? -- I've >got some diagnostics and drive test tools built into ImageDisk which I find >very useful, and I'd be happy to add any other such functions that folks > need (provided of course that it can be done with the PC hardware). Doing a good job on drive alignment generally requires an alignment diskette and a 'scope. However, there were alignment diskettes produced with tracks that were skewed across the width of a track. The idea being that you listed the sectors that could be read and that would tell you approximately how far off alignment you were. Back in the belt-drive DC motor days, things like Instantaneous Speed Variation were important, but you don't see that being tested on the direct-drive models now. Just a simple averaged speed check is adequate on modern drives. Leadscrew positioners (or even the cam-and-follower type in the SA400) sometimes display backlash, which can be checked with an alignment diskette by approaching the same track from the inside and the outside tracks. Taut-band positioners generally don't show much backlash. But in the bad old days, recovery from a data error could took the form of: 1. Re-read in place 3 trimes 2. Recalibrate (seek to track zero), seek to track and re-read 3. Recalibrate, seek past the track and then step backwards and re-read 4. Recalibrate, single-step to the track and re-read. What the first accomplishes is pretty obvious. The second attempts to make sure that the head position hasn't drifted and also tries to knock any schmutz loose from the head. The third attempts to compensate for backlash in the positioner. The fourth tries to anticipate a slugglish positioner mechanism. Cheers, Chuck From jdbryan at acm.org Sat Aug 12 16:39:07 2006 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:39:07 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 double integer instructions info In-Reply-To: <000a01c6bd97$d0543a10$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <200608111444.k7BEimf2029796@mail.bcpl.net>, <000a01c6bd97$d0543a10$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <200608122139.k7CLd8lG028808@mail.bcpl.net> On 11 Aug 2006 at 18:45, Bob Shannon wrote: > Sorry for the typo, I did mean FFP, Fast Fortran. > > Standard on F-series, and I've only ever found one 2113 E-series CPU that > did not have it installed.... On a related topic, are the RTE-6/VM microcode ROMs commonly present in found E- and F-Series machines? There are two sets of three; the HP part numbers are: 92084-80001, 2, 3 (or) -80001, 80102, 80103 (or) -80007, 8, 9 and: 92084-80004, 5, 6. -- Dave From trag at io.com Sat Aug 12 16:13:44 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:13:44 -0500 Subject: Group buy for homebrew CPUs In-Reply-To: <200608120752.k7C7qHrf024834@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608120752.k7C7qHrf024834@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:39:52 -0500 >From: Scott Quinn >The really annoying thing about BGA is that I haven't figured a way to >desolder and reuse chips. Very vexing. Does that mean that you *have* figured out a way to solder BGA into place at home? Jeff Walther From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 12 16:47:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:47:52 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DE4253.2020803@dakotacom.net> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> <44DE08FC.80101@dakotacom.net> <200608121132430606.29DF1F0E@10.0.0.252> <44DE32C2.3050709@dakotacom.net> <200608121329290029.2A4A03B7@10.0.0.252> <44DE4253.2020803@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608121447520442.2A91C83B@10.0.0.252> On 8/12/2006 at 2:04 PM Don wrote: >No *kids*, eh, Chuck? ;) In a steel mill? These were big 3- or 4-foot long Pt/Pt+10% Rh thermocouples. The wire was threaded through ceramic beats, then placed inside of a ceramic tube, then placed in a larger grey-black outer tube (SiC, maybe?). Used for temperature control in soaking-pit furnaces in the blooming mill. That particular summer taught me how much dry heat a human could take in short doses--the next year, a co-worker collapsed and died while changing a thermocouple. Anyway, the thermocouples got bumped during loading and unloading the furnaces and were broken pretty often. When repairing a thermocouple, on of the goals was to butt-weld any wire pieces together. A job that I couldn't do. Cheers, Chuck . From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Aug 12 17:00:26 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:00:26 -0400 Subject: Need quantity of old school PC monochrome adaptors ($$$) In-Reply-To: <44DE4037.3070805@brutman.com> References: <44DE4037.3070805@brutman.com> Message-ID: <44DE4F7A.5070400@gmail.com> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Sellam Ismail wrote: >> I'm in need of 10 monochrome adaptor cards for the PC. I'll pay $10 >> each in any quantity plus shipping. >> >> Please send your offerings directly to me. I do not read the list. I >> need these ASAP. >> >> Thanks! >> > > Is it not rude to presume that we all subscribe to this list so that we > can read and try the fill the urgent requests of others who post to the > list but won't bother reading it? Sellam was on the list for years and years. And he's a fairly good promoter of our hobby in the general public. I don't have a problem with his request. Peace... Sridhar From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Aug 12 17:02:52 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:02:52 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608121447520442.2A91C83B@10.0.0.252> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> <44DE08FC.80101@dakotacom.net> <200608121132430606.29DF1F0E@10.0.0.252> <44DE32C2.3050709@dakotacom.net> <200608121329290029.2A4A03B7@10.0.0.252> <44DE4253.2020803@dakotacom.net> <200608121447520442.2A91C83B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44DE500C.1030900@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/12/2006 at 2:04 PM Don wrote: > >> No *kids*, eh, Chuck? ;) > > In a steel mill? No, I was chuckling at your comment about "not being able to line things up"... :> > These were big 3- or 4-foot long Pt/Pt+10% Rh > thermocouples. The wire was threaded through ceramic beats, then placed > inside of a ceramic tube, then placed in a larger grey-black outer tube > (SiC, maybe?). Used for temperature control in soaking-pit furnaces in the > blooming mill. That particular summer taught me how much dry heat a human > could take in short doses--the next year, a co-worker collapsed and died > while changing a thermocouple. Yeah, I've found that heat by itself isn't *too* bad -- as long as you don't interfere with the body's ability to *shed* it. > Anyway, the thermocouples got bumped during loading and unloading the > furnaces and were broken pretty often. When repairing a thermocouple, on > of the goals was to butt-weld any wire pieces together. Does the junction's geometry play a role? > A job that I couldn't do. Do they still use thermocouples (dirt cheap)? Or, have they moved on to things like infrared, etc.? (I am always amazed at how slow many industries are to adapt to changes) From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Aug 12 17:02:29 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:02:29 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DE4253.2020803@dakotacom.net> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> <44DE08FC.80101@dakotacom.net> <200608121132430606.29DF1F0E@10.0.0.252> <44DE32C2.3050709@dakotacom.net> <200608121329290029.2A4A03B7@10.0.0.252> <44DE4253.2020803@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44DE4FF5.7050905@gmail.com> Don wrote: > I accompanied my Dad on a visit to one of his eye doctors > many years ago. Shortly after starting the exam, the doctor > lowered the room lights, had my Dad cover his "good" eye, > then held his hand up and waved his fingers: "Can you > see my hand, Donald?" I chuckled thinking it was a joke :-( Before I got LASIK, with my glasses off, I couldn't see the big "E" at the top of the chart. From fifteen feet away, I could tell a person was standing there, but seeing their hand would be pushing it. I certainly would have had a hard time recognizing who it was. Peace.. . Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 12 17:29:28 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:29:28 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DE500C.1030900@dakotacom.net> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> <44DE08FC.80101@dakotacom.net> <200608121132430606.29DF1F0E@10.0.0.252> <44DE32C2.3050709@dakotacom.net> <200608121329290029.2A4A03B7@10.0.0.252> <44DE4253.2020803@dakotacom.net> <200608121447520442.2A91C83B@10.0.0.252> <44DE500C.1030900@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608121529280295.2AB7DD2B@10.0.0.252> On 8/12/2006 at 3:02 PM Don wrote: >Do they still use thermocouples (dirt cheap)? Or, have >they moved on to things like infrared, etc.? I've been out of that area too long. This was when I was a YOUNG man. That was the day of mechanical chopper-stabilized vacuum-tube amplifiers, some running from 25 Hz mains power. Heck, some places back then still had key-wound chart recorders wtih clamp galvanometers. (Somehow, the word got out that the galvanometer supports were gold, so we'd usually have to come by a couple times a week and replace them). For some burner control, I do recall some optical quartz-lensed thermopile heads, but they weren't common. You checked accuracy of thermocouples with a hot-wire optical pyrometer and calibrated instruments with a potentiometer bridge and a thermometer (to measure the cold-junction temperature). Weston standard cells were still in use. Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 12 17:58:28 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:58:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Tape Drive & Tape Archival questions... Message-ID: <200608122258.k7CMwS07073270@keith.ezwind.net> --- Don wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> snip << > > > > I've had blets turn to a sticky rubber blob (lik e > the rollers in the > > other thread), then you can't match it up. > > I've only seen problems with "rubber feet" -- > especially on > Sun gear -- disintegrating. And, they end up > messier than > a wad of chewing gum that has been sitting in the > summer > Sun for a day... :-( > > Don I have had similar problems with the "feet" on some of my oldish consoles (I would say old but I feared people would think of the Atari's and such from the early 80's). One "foot" on the bottom of my SNES turned half to mush whilst the other three "feet" are perfectly fine! Not sure what caused it to happen... but as long as the SNES works I'm more than happy ;) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Aug 12 17:48:11 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:48:11 -0700 Subject: KVM's Message-ID: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> Hi, In an attempt to cut down on the number of monitors, etc. here, I dragged out an old KVM (which, unfortunately, seems to have lost track of his wal wart!). It doesn't take long to realize that this is a non-solution: - keyboards are PS2, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. - mice are PS2, Serial, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. - video is Sun's 13W3, HD15, DEC's RGB, apple's DB15, etc. Does anyone make a *truly* universal KVM (i.e. so that I can mix and match all of these flavors)? And, how outrageously priced is it? Or, do I just have to get used to hiding "not in use" mice, etc. out of the way? From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Aug 12 17:55:27 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:55:27 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DE4FF5.7050905@gmail.com> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> <44DE08FC.80101@dakotacom.net> <200608121132430606.29DF1F0E@10.0.0.252> <44DE32C2.3050709@dakotacom.net> <200608121329290029.2A4A03B7@10.0.0.252> <44DE4253.2020803@dakotacom.net> <44DE4FF5.7050905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44DE5C5F.2080308@dakotacom.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Don wrote: >> I accompanied my Dad on a visit to one of his eye doctors >> many years ago. Shortly after starting the exam, the doctor >> lowered the room lights, had my Dad cover his "good" eye, >> then held his hand up and waved his fingers: "Can you >> see my hand, Donald?" I chuckled thinking it was a joke :-( > > Before I got LASIK, with my glasses off, I couldn't see the big "E" at Yeah, the last time I went in for an eye exam (driver's license?) I quickly memorized the third or fourth line on the eyechart and then took off my glasses BEFORE the examiner arrived (wanting to avoid a "visual" restriction on my license). What I hadn't realized -- but was SOON to do so! -- was that I couldn't read the *second* line on the chart without my glasses! > the top of the chart. From fifteen feet away, I could tell a person was > standing there, but seeing their hand would be pushing it. I certainly > would have had a hard time recognizing who it was. I am a bit of a "fixture" in the neighborhood (often walking or doing yardwork or under the hood of my car, etc.). So, many of the neighbors recognize me when they bump into me at local stores, etc. Almost invariably, they will say "Hi" and then be disappointed that I don't recognize who *they* are. After a few seconds discussing this, I'll end up saying something like, "Oh! You're the blue, 1985 *mustang*" or "the beige minivan", etc. I wonder what they must think -- being known solely by the car they drive? :-/ From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Aug 12 17:56:28 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:56:28 -0700 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44DE5C9C.4010108@msm.umr.edu> Don wrote: > > > It doesn't take long to realize that this is a non-solution: > - keyboards are PS2, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. Keyboards that are USB convert to PS2 with a gizmo Sun converters can be had on ebay, though not cheaply. SS10 and 20s and prior are handled well, but the next up cheapo, the U5/10 motherboard is a pain because it is sun keyboard and VGA out. they only went half way till the blades. U2 etc, are 13w3 however but are not as nice as the U5 because they require scsi drives. > - mice are PS2, Serial, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. meece that are USB can go to PS2. > - video is Sun's 13W3, HD15, DEC's RGB, apple's DB15, etc. > there is a sun converter for the raritan and for avocent that converts the keyboard and video. it requires sun keyboard power tu run the logic, and is rare on ebay. there is a mac box from raritan that converts to ps2, maybe there are other such solutions. ADB does not ring a bell, so I guess I don't have them. The Dec Vax type video and keyboards, as well as the funny HP's ones are pretty much in the "hide the keyboard and mouse" class. AIX boxes that I am keeping must have vga adapters, and ps2, though they are not w/o problems. Jim > Does anyone make a *truly* universal KVM (i.e. so that > I can mix and match all of these flavors)? And, how > outrageously priced is it? > > Or, do I just have to get used to hiding "not in use" > mice, etc. out of the way? > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 12 18:03:14 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:03:14 -0500 Subject: HP 1000 double integer instructions info References: <200608111444.k7BEimf2029796@mail.bcpl.net>, <000a01c6bd97$d0543a10$0100a8c0@screamer> <200608122139.k7CLd8lG028808@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <006101c6be63$7de9c570$6700a8c0@BILLING> J. David wrote... > On a related topic, are the RTE-6/VM microcode ROMs commonly present in > found E- and F-Series machines? There are two sets of three; the HP part > numbers are: I have a set. Of all the HP 21MX E/F machines I've had run through my basement (at least 30+ machines), only one had the RTE-6/VM microcode. Odd, but true. Oh, they are on bitsavers, so we could burn additional sets easy enough. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 12 18:06:59 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:06:59 -0500 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? References: <200608120751.k7C7pjRa024797@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <009701c6be64$052b5210$6700a8c0@BILLING> If we were gonna do a homebrew CPU, I'd sure like to see it done with something akin to AMD 2901's. Why not build a retro cpu out of a retro technology? Jay From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Aug 12 18:09:08 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:09:08 -0500 Subject: Need quantity of old school PC monochrome adaptors ($$$) Message-ID: <139e211c78df415ca0fb9152754467f3@valleyimplants.com> Mike sayith: >Is it not rude to presume that we all subscribe to this list so that we >can read and try the fill the urgent requests of others who post to the >list but won't bother reading it? In general, probably, but I'd be inclined to give Sellam a special dispensation - he was an active listmember for quite some time and hopefully will be again when his (daughter|son, can't remember) grows up a bit. Phenomenal resource, like Tony. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Aug 12 18:17:53 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:17:53 -0500 Subject: Asynch designs Message-ID: <4027170d3ba94cf99ae514821373689d@valleyimplants.com> > Supposedly, non-clocked logic can also offer greater security because >there's no clock signal for remote sensors to key on when trying to >sense what the CPU is doing. This seemed a little odd to me. Do >espionage types really try to sense what a processor is doing >remotely, based on the EM emissions from the chip? Don't know about processors, but Tempest had a proof of concept for intercepting I/O from kbd/video. (Anyone else remember Tempest? for a while they were selling big "tinfoil hat" type shields for monitors and then, suddenly, it went away.) Was that NSA that came up with the POC? P.S. - for the U.S. types - never would have thought it 15 years ago, but NSA now has official mousepads you can buy. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 12 18:36:06 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:36:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: KVM's Message-ID: <200608122336.k7CNa6vt073954@keith.ezwind.net> --- jim stephens wrote: > Don wrote: > > > > > > > It doesn't take long to realize that this is a > non-solution: > > - keyboards are PS2, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. > What does ADB stand for? The reason I ask is that my initials are ADB (my middle name is David), and every time I see it in a message it throws me for a split second. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Aug 12 18:22:52 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:22:52 -0500 Subject: Group buy for homebrew CPUs Message-ID: Jeff quipped >Does that mean that you *have* figured out a way to solder BGA into >place at home? It means that I haven't been able to pull any chips to practice with yet. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 12 18:39:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:39:33 -0700 Subject: Asynch designs In-Reply-To: <4027170d3ba94cf99ae514821373689d@valleyimplants.com> References: <4027170d3ba94cf99ae514821373689d@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200608121639330211.2AF805CD@10.0.0.252> On 8/12/2006 at 6:17 PM Scott Quinn wrote: >P.S. - for the U.S. types - never would have thought it 15 years ago, but NSA now has official mousepads you can buy. Yup, as with most other branches, there are mouse pads, caps, coffee cups, tie pins, etc. NSA, CIA, Secret Service, FBI, IRS CID...I've got a bunch of that stuff. However, I've never seen an NRO mousepad. From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Sat Aug 12 18:44:25 2006 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 00:44:25 +0100 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20060813003905.02cf67d0@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> At 23:48 12/08/2006, Don wrote: >Does anyone make a *truly* universal KVM (i.e. so that >I can mix and match all of these flavors)? And, how >outrageously priced is it? Lindy do one that on the face of it gets somewhere closer than most to what you want: http://www.lindy.com/uk/productfolder/03/32/32251/index.php It's not particularly clear what the connections are, but there is a manual to download, and their technical support is usually pretty good if that doesn't help. Price is indeed outrageous (?375 retail, ~$700, plus cables ..) but if you can find someone with a trade account it will be somewhat less.. Rob. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Aug 12 18:47:01 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:47:01 -0700 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <200608122336.k7CNa6vt073954@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608122336.k7CNa6vt073954@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <44DE6875.2060808@dakotacom.net> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > > --- jim stephens wrote: >> Don wrote: >> >>> >>> It doesn't take long to realize that this is a >> non-solution: >>> - keyboards are PS2, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. > > What does ADB stand for? The reason I ask > is that my initials are ADB (my middle name is > David), and every time I see it in a message > it throws me for a split second. Apple Desktop Bus -- or something like that... From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Aug 12 18:49:29 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:49:29 -0700 Subject: Asynch designs In-Reply-To: <4027170d3ba94cf99ae514821373689d@valleyimplants.com> References: <4027170d3ba94cf99ae514821373689d@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <44DE6909.1040805@dakotacom.net> Scott Quinn wrote: > >> Supposedly, non-clocked logic can also offer greater security because >> there's no clock signal for remote sensors to key on when trying to >> sense what the CPU is doing. This seemed a little odd to me. Do >> espionage types really try to sense what a processor is doing >> remotely, based on the EM emissions from the chip? > > Don't know about processors, but Tempest had a proof of concept for intercepting I/O from kbd/video. > (Anyone else remember Tempest? for a while they were selling big "tinfoil hat" type shields for monitors and then, suddenly, > it went away.) Was that NSA that came up with the POC? > > P.S. - for the U.S. types - never would have thought it 15 years ago, but NSA now has official mousepads you can buy. I think the *monitor* is the biggest (and easiest) "leak" to tap. IIRC, in the UK they have mobile units that wander around trying to see how many televisions each home has (?) From newyork.techie at gmail.com Sat Aug 12 19:00:49 2006 From: newyork.techie at gmail.com (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:00:49 -0400 Subject: Questions on convergence... Message-ID: <3e34a0420608121700p5f0a8213kc9cb0f105548ff9a@mail.gmail.com> I have an old (over 11yrs old) Hitachi 21" CRT model CM2111MU (sub model 512), also known as a SuperScan Mc21HR RasterOps, that seems to have a little overlap/failure to line-up on the colors (also known as a convergence issue as I've been told). I can't seem to find anyone in the area who still works on these damned things. Anyone have any pointers to fixing convergence issues or know of anyone in the Hudson Valley area (NY) that could fix this big bastard? Any assistance would be greatly appeciated. PS: I'm currently also working on acquiring a semi-working old MAC Classic II (I believe), are there any resource sites that have technical sheets, etc. to fixing it? John Boffemmyer IV From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 12 19:23:35 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:23:35 -0400 Subject: Need quantity of old school PC monochrome adaptors ($$$) In-Reply-To: <44DE4037.3070805@brutman.com> References: <44DE4037.3070805@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200608122023.35423.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 12 August 2006 04:55 pm, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I'm in need of 10 monochrome adaptor cards for the PC. I'll pay $10 each > > in any quantity plus shipping. > > > > Please send your offerings directly to me. I do not read the list. I > > need these ASAP. > > > > Thanks! > > Is it not rude to presume that we all subscribe to this list so that we > can read and try the fill the urgent requests of others who post to the > list but won't bother reading it? Seems to me that contacting him and transacting whatever offlist is sparing the rest of us that clutter which wouldn't really be of interest, for the most part. And I sure don't have a problem with the opportunity to get rid of some of my old junk, particularly if I can get a few $$$ for it, though I haven't yet managed to locate those mono boards I thought I had on hand here... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Aug 12 19:25:03 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:25:03 -0500 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44DE715F.9050701@mdrconsult.com> Don wrote: > Hi, > > In an attempt to cut down on the number of monitors, etc. > here, I dragged out an old KVM (which, unfortunately, seems > to have lost track of his wal wart!). > > It doesn't take long to realize that this is a non-solution: > - keyboards are PS2, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. > - mice are PS2, Serial, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. > - video is Sun's 13W3, HD15, DEC's RGB, apple's DB15, etc. > > Does anyone make a *truly* universal KVM (i.e. so that > I can mix and match all of these flavors)? And, how > outrageously priced is it? Cybex Commander series is as close as you'll get. The ones I've worked with are a backplane with cards that attach to computers or console or other KVM units. The computer-conected cards are jumperable to the type of kbd/mouse/display that system expects, and they make cables for SPARC (with 13W3 display), ADB/DB15, PS/2-HD15, AT/serial/HD15, etc. I've not seen USB cables, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. As an added bonus, they do sound if you buy the right cables, and allow up to 4 user consoles per setup. The newer ones are a lot smaller, support USB, and don't have the mix-&-match backplane. Fairly expensive, but common on eBay and the cables come up reasonably cheap. Doc > > Or, do I just have to get used to hiding "not in use" > mice, etc. out of the way? > From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 12 19:28:48 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:28:48 -0400 Subject: EX2000 Floppy Drive Tester In-Reply-To: <200608122110.k7CLAe64032030@monisys.caonisys.ca> References: <3217.68.108.252.223.1155356051.squirrel@webmail9.pair.com> <200608122110.k7CLAe64032030@monisys.caonisys.ca> Message-ID: <200608122028.48550.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 12 August 2006 06:07 pm, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > Not that I'd toss it if one of those were to come my way... > > > > Somewhere I also have a "drive exerciser" cartridge that plugged into a > > Yamaha CX-5 computer as well -- this was no doubt meant for their drive > > but would work equally well with any other drive that could be plugged in > > and powered up if you adjusted the value of the maximum track number, > > which was easy enough to do in the software since it ran in BASIC. It > > came in handy a few times. > > What exactly does the "drive excerciser" do which comes in handy? -- I've > got some diagnostics and drive test tools built into ImageDisk which I find > very useful, and I'd be happy to add any other such functions that folks > need (provided of course that it can be done with the PC hardware). It's been ages since I used it, probably last in about the 1990-2 timeframe, but the main thing is to be able to read out the drive's speed in RPM (I guess they use the index pulse for that?) and to be able to step the drive to specific tracks, which is where the alignment disk comes in to the picture. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 12 19:31:56 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:31:56 -0400 Subject: async designs In-Reply-To: References: <200608120751.k7C7pjRa024797@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200608122031.56122.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 12 August 2006 04:53 pm, Jeff Walther wrote: > >Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:58:56 -0700 > From: Brent Hilpert > > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> At one time async logic was a hot topic. > > > >The IAS machine (von Neumann/late 1940s) is listed in various places > > (under 'clock rate') as being 'async'. (And - annoyingly - those listings > > then don't provide an effective instruction rate for the sake of > > comparison). > > > >I've been curious as to more precisely how the timing was accomplished in > > that (those) machines. Offhand, I suspect you still end up with delay > > elements in the design at various points to ensure some group (worst > > case) of signals/paths > >are all ready/stable at some point and you end with a more-or-less > > 'effective clock rate' anyways and don't gain much. > > > >Such all started with ENIAC didn't it?, which - based on what I've been > > able to find/read - could be described as an async design. > >Was async still being discussed in the 60's? > > I worked on some "non-clocked" logic designs for a little company > called Theseus. As far as I know they're still in business. It's > been a while, so my memory is hazy and it was definitely > unconventional design. > > The basic scheme (IIRC) was to use two wires per bit of information. > Three of the four possible states were used. '0' and '1' were two of > the states and 'ready' was the third state, except I don't think they > called it 'ready' but that'll do for this discussion. > > When you reached a set of registers (flops) in the logic (say a > grouping of 8 bits for a bus) you'd have 'acknowledge' logic which > would would signal back upstream that it was ready for the next > computation. It depended on all eight registers reaching a data > state (0 or 1) before it signaled ready back upstream. Then and > this is where I get hazy, all the registers would get reset to the > ready state before the next set of data is processed. I think. It > really has been a while. > > So, in practice, you have 2 to 4 times as much logic because you have > two wires per bit plus acknowledge logic flowing back upstream. > > On the other hand, if nothing is being processed, then your circuitry > is idle and not switching. This can save a bundle of power depending > on the application. > > Additionally, the logic pipeline can operate as fast as it possibly > can, without being held back by a clock. So in some cases one gains > speed. And you don't have to worry about routing finicky clocks all > over the chip. > > Still, you have the overhead of those acknowledge signals. > > Plus, being an unconventional logic, there are not sophisticated > tools and libraries available, so it takes longer to design for and > requires more design discipline from the designer. > > If you applied the same amount of effort and discipline to > conventional design, you might end up with something just as good or > better, but the non-clocked logic paradigm forces the extra effort. This reminds me a bit of stuff that I've seen where signals were fed from one (custom) chip to the next with only 2 or 3 lines, mostly in some musical electronic equipment... > Supposedly, non-clocked logic can also offer greater security because > there's no clock signal for remote sensors to key on when trying to > sense what the CPU is doing. This seemed a little odd to me. Do > espionage types really try to sense what a processor is doing > remotely, based on the EM emissions from the chip? To the best of my understanding of such stuff, most of what's done in that regard is picking up _video_ signals, though I'm not going to say that it can't happen some other way as well, I suppose lots of things can be done if one throws enough money at them. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 12 19:38:53 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:38:53 -0400 Subject: Asynch designs In-Reply-To: <4027170d3ba94cf99ae514821373689d@valleyimplants.com> References: <4027170d3ba94cf99ae514821373689d@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200608122038.53755.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 12 August 2006 07:17 pm, Scott Quinn wrote: > > Supposedly, non-clocked logic can also offer greater security because > >there's no clock signal for remote sensors to key on when trying to > >sense what the CPU is doing. This seemed a little odd to me. Do > >espionage types really try to sense what a processor is doing > >remotely, based on the EM emissions from the chip? > > Don't know about processors, but Tempest had a proof of concept for > intercepting I/O from kbd/video. (Anyone else remember Tempest? for a while > they were selling big "tinfoil hat" type shields for monitors and then, > suddenly, it went away.) Was that NSA that came up with the POC? Yeah, I remember it. Some of the service work I did back when was on a local Navy base. Along with those boards I posted about, there were some other weird bits, which I think I sitll have around someplace -- panels with some standard connectors but which were *seriously* shielded, and grounded, and with some interconnecting cables (the stuff they connected to wasn't with the junk) that were also shielded as well. Rather odd stuff, that. I'm guessing it was part of some kind of a setup that was designed to counteract that way of gathering information... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 12 19:40:36 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:40:36 -0400 Subject: Asynch designs In-Reply-To: <44DE6909.1040805@dakotacom.net> References: <4027170d3ba94cf99ae514821373689d@valleyimplants.com> <44DE6909.1040805@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608122040.36930.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 12 August 2006 07:49 pm, Don wrote: > IIRC, in the UK they have mobile units that wander around trying > to see how many televisions each home has (?) I remember reading about that some time ago (decades?), and wondering since then how much that whole thing had gotten messed up since computer monitors had come into the picture. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 12 19:49:50 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:49:50 -0400 Subject: Questions on convergence... In-Reply-To: <3e34a0420608121700p5f0a8213kc9cb0f105548ff9a@mail.gmail.com> References: <3e34a0420608121700p5f0a8213kc9cb0f105548ff9a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608122049.50247.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 12 August 2006 08:00 pm, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > I have an old (over 11yrs old) Hitachi 21" > CRT model CM2111MU (sub model 512), also known as a SuperScan Mc21HR > RasterOps, that seems to have a little overlap/failure to line-up on the > colors (also known as a convergence issue as I've been told). I can't seem > to find anyone in the area who still works on these damned things. Anyone > have any pointers to fixing convergence issues or know of anyone in the > Hudson Valley area (NY) that could fix this big bastard? Any assistance > would be greatly appeciated. I've done that sort of thing, on TVs, and what you describe there ain't old. TVs that were still using all vacuum tubes when I worked on them back in the days I had my shop -- now they were OLD! Convergence used to be a real PITA, because you had static convergence that was done by moving magnets on the neck of the CRT (not to be confused with the purity magnets!) and then you had dynamic convergence, which was typically 12-16 separate adjustments, all of which interacted to some extent. Stuff has come a long way since those days, and a lot of it is compensated for by the factory attaching the deflection yoke and some very small (and weak) magnets to the CRT and gluing everything down. The design of the face of the tube has moved away from the old dot triad to triads of small stripes, which gives you the advantage of the "Trinitron" design without the expense of that tube. If this came on all of a sudden rather than gradually, it's possible that the glue or other goop holding one or more of those magnets in place has given way and they've moved -- looking the thing over with a strong light and a magnifying glass would perhaps reveal this and allow you to put stuff where it belonged. If it did come on gradually then there's probably some circuit component that's shifted over time and will need to be replaced. I used to try and fix monitors. The last time I had one that I wanted working I ended up tracking down some guy in the area who would work on them, taking him 3 or 4 of the monitors that I had around, and telling him that he could keep them if I got the one fixed that I wanted. As it turns out he didn't fix it right, and I've not felt like being bothered to go back there and hassle it since then. I did open that one up, but there was no way I was going to attempt that repair. The other thing is, to do a proper convergence needs a signal that's going to give you a stable pattern, although I suspect that's easier to do with a computer driving it than not, I had to buy a little generator for TVs back when, which I still have, but it's RF output only and limited in terms of what frequencies it'll deal with. You'd need something that would deal with the frequencies you're operating at. I know of one guy who actually went out and spent the money on such a generator, and it's been several years since I talked to him, I don't even know if he's still in business or not at this point in time. Monitors are apparently moving into the "not worth fixing" category any more. And I just saw one offer of a couple of them on a local freecycle list. And didn't go for them as I have pleny of them on hand now... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 12 19:53:39 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:53:39 -0400 Subject: semiconductor mfr. logos page Message-ID: <200608122053.39577.rtellason@verizon.net> A while back I'd sort of thrown something together with a bunch of logos on a web pages, and since Jay expressed some interest in that some time back I uploaded it, but since I wasn't happy about a number of aspects of it back then I didn't link to it and didn't publicize it. Then in the past few days I got a request from one other correspondent who was looking for similar info, and pointed him at the page, which he was nicely impressed with, and at the same time dug around in my pile of downloads for some more of them I'd snagged since then. I then put this all together, and have uploaded the result, which can be seen here: http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/logos/semiconductorlogos.html and which is now also linked through my parts pages at: http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/parts-index.html Perhaps some of you will find this information useful. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Aug 12 21:06:43 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 14:06:43 +1200 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <0J3V00BPKWSTJDPA@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J3V00BPKWSTJDPA@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 8/13/06, Allison wrote: > From: Brad Parker > > > >(from my primative understanding an 8/i was made from a few different > >flip chips and a *lot* of backplane wirewrap - just wondering if that's > >machine readable anywhere) Yep... 'though "few" is relative. There are lots of simple and common M-series modules like the M111 or M113 or M216, but there are a handful of specialty modules like the M220 (2-bits of each of the major registers, quantity 6) or the M706/M707 TTY interface, which, while they _could_ be done in SMT parts, are much more complex than the simple logic modules, and would each be individual projects themselves. Since this topic has drifted a bit, let me clarify that my interest is in spare parts to repair existing machines, not trying to implement a PDP-8/L from scratch. I know there are scans of -8/L and 8/i docs, but I am not aware of any ASCII netlists or such. Somewhere, I have a partial netlist on paper from removing the wires from a damaged -8/L (the bar supporting the backplane was broken before I got it, and years of flexing broke several wires and backplane pins - it was a "gimme" that came along for free with the first PDP-8/L I bought in 1982), but I can't seem to find it, and in any case, it's only on paper. > One it's I've been looking for is if anyone has done a semiconductor > memory for the 8e/f/m omnibus machines. There was a hex wide one for the > 8A. Yep... the same hex-height board could be populated (at the time of manufacture) with 4kbit DRAMs as 16K or 32K or with 16kbit DRAMs as 128K (but you needed a KT8A to be able to address more than 32K). 16K is ok for playing around, but by the end of the PDP-8/a lifecycle, there were enough machines in the world with a full 32K that a lot of interesting software came out that really wanted more than 16K (ADVENT, to name a famous example). > I figure it would be handy for those that don't have enough core or > fully functional core. I would _love_ to have some quad-height semi-conductor memory for the OMNIBUS. I have one or two quad-height and dual height protoboards which should be easy enough to populate with a couple of 62256s, say, and some bus buffering/driving. For a one-off, I don't even mind scavenging my existing boards for proper drivers, but I realize that not everyone has tubes of 8641s and 8881s and such lying around (i.e., it's good to have modern work-alikes as an option). To that end, I keep meaning to make a TTL chip tester to hand-sort the chips as DEC once did (7438s?) - of course, as was just pointed out, with modern configurations not being asked to support the wide range of configurations that DEC once supported (i.e. - 1 or 2 OMNIBUS backplanes (not 3 or 4)... one or two mass storage controllers, etc...), it might not be as necessary to strictly adhere to the published bus specs as it once was, especially since one would be putting one board in for 32K rather than four to eight sets of core boards. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Aug 12 21:10:37 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 14:10:37 +1200 Subject: ID these boards? In-Reply-To: <200608121349.58757.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608111337.56224.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608111428140589.25597296@10.0.0.252> <200608121349.58757.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 8/13/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Friday 11 August 2006 11:18 pm, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Got any pictures? I'm curious to see what it looks like. > > Nope, but I do have the boards laying here. Gotta get a digital camera one > of these days... Got a flatbed scanner? They make nice pictures of boards. -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 12 21:34:21 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 22:34:21 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DE0145.4060600@neurotica.com> References: <44DBEBEE.4030105@dakotacom.net> <200608111345.47712.rtellason@verizon.net> <20060811203755.AF866BA4130@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200608111432030130.255CEF51@10.0.0.252> <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <44DE0145.4060600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Really?? That was before my time (born in '69)...I had no idea > people whined about the advent of PCBs. Yes, but just like the SMT issue, it was mostly because people were not us9ing the right tools. Early PCBs were crap - no wonder their 200W Wen soldering guns lifted the traces. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Aug 12 21:39:34 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 14:39:34 +1200 Subject: new acquisitions In-Reply-To: <44DE0616.6070702@neurotica.com> References: <00a701c6bd9f$14e59dc0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <44DE0616.6070702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 8/13/06, Dave McGuire wrote: > Jay West wrote: > > 2) DEC Microprocessors Handbook (poor condition, but I didn't have one, > > so nice!). > > Wow...That's one of the very few Handbooks that I don't have. That's > an excellent score. Hmm... I'm not sure if I have one of those or not - what machines does it cover? What's the year of publication? -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 12 21:41:43 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 22:41:43 -0400 Subject: Asynch designs In-Reply-To: <4027170d3ba94cf99ae514821373689d@valleyimplants.com> References: <4027170d3ba94cf99ae514821373689d@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: > Don't know about processors, but Tempest had a proof of concept for intercepting I/O from kbd/video. > (Anyone else remember Tempest? for a while they were selling big "tinfoil hat" type shields for monitors and then, suddenly, > it went away.) Was that NSA that came up with the POC? All you need to do is listen with a laser, and you can tell what someone is typing - each key sounds just a bit different... There are some interesting Tempest goodies out there, but I havbe not seen any lately. DEC made a VT100 TEMPEST, and IBM made Tempest versions of the PC. -- Will From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Aug 12 22:10:49 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 22:10:49 -0500 Subject: semiconductor mfr. logos page References: <200608122053.39577.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <001001c6be86$14577990$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Roy wrote... >A while back I'd sort of thrown something together with a bunch of logos on >a > web pages, and since Jay expressed some interest in that some time back I ..snip... > Then in the past few days I got a request from one other correspondent who > was > looking for similar info, ...snip... > I then put this all together, and have uploaded the result, which can be > seen here: Oh IIIIIII see how ya are. I ask and it's no big deal. Someone ELSE asks and ya publicize it *sniff sniff* :D J/K J From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 12 22:39:21 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 21:39:21 -0600 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: References: <0J3V00BPKWSTJDPA@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <44DE9EE9.3050202@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Yep... the same hex-height board could be populated (at the time of > manufacture) with 4kbit DRAMs as 16K or 32K or with 16kbit DRAMs as > 128K (but you needed a KT8A to be able to address more than 32K). 16K > is ok for playing around, but by the end of the PDP-8/a lifecycle, there > were > enough machines in the world with a full 32K that a lot of interesting > software > came out that really wanted more than 16K (ADVENT, to name a famous > example). So are there any more games like ADVENT for the PDP-8? The last time I got to play with a real 8 was in the early 80's and ADVENTURE was *not* around for the PDP8/e. From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 12 22:59:58 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:59:58 -0400 Subject: ID these boards? In-Reply-To: References: <200608111337.56224.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608121349.58757.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608122359.58681.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 12 August 2006 10:10 pm, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/13/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Friday 11 August 2006 11:18 pm, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Got any pictures? I'm curious to see what it looks like. > > > > Nope, but I do have the boards laying here. Gotta get a digital camera > > one of these days... > > Got a flatbed scanner? They make nice pictures of boards. Several of them in fact, but none of them are currently set up at present and I'd have to move a whole bunch of stuff around to set one up. And I'd read that recently, now that you mention it. Dunno why I didn't think of it, Don Lancaster had some thoughts on the subject. Too bad there's only a limited amount of desk real estate in here and I'd have to find someplace else to put all the "stuff" that's there currently... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Aug 12 23:08:15 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 21:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: References: <200608120751.k7C7pjRa024797@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Aug 2006, Jeff Walther wrote: >> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:58:16 -0600 >> From: "e.stiebler" > >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> On 8/11/2006 at 4:37 PM shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com wrote: >> >>> I suspect that the legacy DIP stuff will get harder to buy new through >>> "normal" channels, given RoHS. In the long run, I suppose we'd all >>> better >>> get used to working with surface mount. :( >> >> Yup, get ready to solder .2 mm balls on 800 balls BGA. >> Get your toaster-oven ready ;-) > > BGA components have a specification for the clearance between the chip > package and the circuit board after soldering. I don't think you could meet > that just by putting the thing in the oven. Thats entirely determined by the package weight and surface tension (assuming the solder balls are all melted), If you do it by hand you can see the BGA package 'sink' when all the balls are melted. So you can do it with an oven, a simple hot air gun or probably even a propane torch if you are skilled enough. I have done many successful BGA protos with nothing more than a $59.00 Granger hot air gun. and actually the commercial SMT equipment bears a large resemblence to a glorified toaster oven... BGA's are not all that hard to do with simple hand tools. > > However, it might be interesting to get some feeler guages the same thickness > as the clearance that that specification calls for, place the feeler guages > around the edges of the chip between the chip and the board and then heat the > chip and board until the chip presses down on the feeler guages. That > *should* give the proper clearance and therefore the appropriate solder ball > "squish". > > I don't know how one reballs BGA components though. Anyone care to explain? > > Jeff Walther > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 12 23:53:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 21:53:31 -0700 Subject: async designs In-Reply-To: <200608122031.56122.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608120751.k7C7pjRa024797@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200608122031.56122.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608122153310151.2C177526@10.0.0.252> Okay, if you want a challenge, how about an ALU that's both async and adiabatic? Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Aug 13 00:06:23 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:06:23 -0600 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <009701c6be64$052b5210$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <200608120751.k7C7pjRa024797@dewey.classiccmp.org> <009701c6be64$052b5210$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <44DEB34F.3020601@jetnet.ab.ca> Jay West wrote: > If we were gonna do a homebrew CPU, I'd sure like to see it done with > something akin to AMD 2901's. Why not build a retro cpu out of a retro > technology? Hey until I could find out I could get PROMs burned, SSI was the way to for me. That is why I have not built a computer yet. :( > Jay I am starting to grumble at all the better computer systems that the PEE-CEE wiped out! I was just looking at a bit on the PREQ. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Aug 13 00:08:56 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:08:56 -0600 Subject: async designs In-Reply-To: <200608122153310151.2C177526@10.0.0.252> References: <200608120751.k7C7pjRa024797@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200608122031.56122.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608122153310151.2C177526@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44DEB3E8.1070901@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Okay, if you want a challenge, how about an ALU that's both async and > adiabatic? So what is a adiabatic system? > Cheers, > Chuck > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Aug 13 00:12:37 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 01:12:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <200608122336.k7CNa6vt073954@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608122336.k7CNa6vt073954@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200608130513.BAA05904@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> - keyboards are PS2, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. > What does ADB stand for? Whenever I've seen it expanded, it's always been Apple Desktop Bus. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Aug 13 00:23:42 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 01:23:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Asynch designs In-Reply-To: <200608122040.36930.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4027170d3ba94cf99ae514821373689d@valleyimplants.com> <44DE6909.1040805@dakotacom.net> <200608122040.36930.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608130524.BAA06015@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> IIRC, in the UK they have mobile units that wander around trying to >> see how many televisions each home has (?) > I remember reading about that some time ago (decades?), and wondering > since then how much that whole thing had gotten messed up since > computer monitors had come into the picture. Probably not much; very few computer monitors use resolutions as coarse as a TV's, so the signal thrown will be distinctively different. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 13 00:32:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 22:32:54 -0700 Subject: async designs In-Reply-To: <44DEB3E8.1070901@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200608120751.k7C7pjRa024797@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200608122031.56122.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608122153310151.2C177526@10.0.0.252> <44DEB3E8.1070901@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200608122232540155.2C3B80FD@10.0.0.252> On 8/12/2006 at 11:08 PM woodelf wrote: >So what is a adiabatic system? I assume that you mean a system made up of adiabatic logic elements. Consider what happens when a CMOS logic gate moves from an "on" state to an "off" state. Where does the charge stored in the gate capacitance go? Answer--it's dissipated as heat. An adiabatic logic device attempts to recover this charge and re-use it, thus drastically lowering power dissipation. All the adiabatic logic I've seen has been clocked, however. I'm not even sure that async adiabatic logic is even possible with current technology. Here's an 8 bit adiabatic multiplier: http://www.eecs.umich.edu/acal/features/0267046001055824855/index.html And here's a London firm called--surprise!---Adiabatic Logic Ltd. that's working on some products: http://www.adiabaticlogic.com/ Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 13 00:41:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 22:41:09 -0700 Subject: Some more PCWorld "best of" chatter Message-ID: <200608122241090222.2C430EBF@10.0.0.252> http://tinyurl.com/kqzt6 Offered only in the spirit that it's OT for vintage computers, not for the content. Cheers, Chuck From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Sun Aug 13 00:53:27 2006 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 06:53:27 +0100 Subject: async designs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002201c6be9c$cc4ad630$655b2c0a@w2kdell> > Do espionage types really try to sense what a processor is doing > remotely, based on the EM emissions from the chip? See some of Ross Anderson's papers on http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/ for attacks that have been used on "Smart Cards". That could be considered an example - even if it is more commonly for criminal rather than state espionage. Andy From technobug at comcast.net Sun Aug 13 01:08:13 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:08:13 -0700 Subject: async designs In-Reply-To: <200608122254.k7CMsiEx038271@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608122254.k7CMsiEx038271@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3FD9B84E-4EA7-4594-AE70-ED04A55C8D7D@comcast.net> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:58:56 -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> At one time async logic was a hot topic. >> >> The IAS machine (von Neumann/late 1940s) is listed in various >> places (under >> 'clock rate') as being 'async'. (And - annoyingly - those listings >> then don't >> provide an effective instruction rate for the sake of comparison). >> >> I've been curious as to more precisely how the timing was >> accomplished in that >> (those) machines. Offhand, I suspect you still end up with delay >> elements in >> the design at various points to ensure some group (worst case) of >> signals/paths >> are all ready/stable at some point and you end with a more-or-less >> 'effective >> clock rate' anyways and don't gain much. >> >> Such all started with ENIAC didn't it?, which - based on what I've >> been able >> to find/read - could be described as an async design. >> Was async still being discussed in the 60's? > Serious theoretical work was done for relay logic prior to ENIAC and it definitely isn't dead right now. There is a substantial amount of work being done in the area with the UK being a hotspot of activity. Early this year ARM and a Philips subsidiary released an ARM core that was entirely async. For those interested, this is an excellent resource: CRC From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 01:23:22 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:23:22 -0700 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <44DE5C9C.4010108@msm.umr.edu> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> <44DE5C9C.4010108@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <44DEC55A.20108@dakotacom.net> jim stephens wrote: > Don wrote: > >> It doesn't take long to realize that this is a non-solution: >> - keyboards are PS2, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. > > Keyboards that are USB convert to PS2 with a gizmo > Sun converters can be had on ebay, though not cheaply. > SS10 and 20s and prior are handled well, but the next > up cheapo, the U5/10 motherboard is a pain because > it is sun keyboard and VGA out. they only went half Hmmm... my U10 has VGVA and a 13W3. I assume one overrides the other? > way till the blades. U2 etc, are 13w3 however but > are not as nice as the U5 because they require scsi > drives. Nothing wrong with SCSI... :> >> - mice are PS2, Serial, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. > > meece that are USB can go to PS2. It seems like lots of converters involved. :-( Presumably the USB based stuff can be self-powered. Otherwise, lots and lots and lots of wall warts?? >> - video is Sun's 13W3, HD15, DEC's RGB, apple's DB15, etc. >> > there is a sun converter for the raritan and for > avocent that converts the keyboard and video. > it requires sun keyboard power tu run the logic, and > is rare on ebay. > > there is a mac box from raritan that converts to > ps2, maybe there are other such solutions. > > ADB does not ring a bell, so I guess I don't have > them. Apple Desktop Bus > The Dec Vax type video and keyboards, as well > as the funny HP's ones are pretty much in the > "hide the keyboard and mouse" class. > > AIX boxes that I am keeping must have vga > adapters, and ps2, though they are not w/o problems. Sheesh! This sounds like a real mess! :-( I assume the reason off-the-shelf devices that handle all of this "nicely" don't exist because most installations are homogenous? From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 01:24:44 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:24:44 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <009701c6be64$052b5210$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <200608120751.k7C7pjRa024797@dewey.classiccmp.org> <009701c6be64$052b5210$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <44DEC5AC.5070609@dakotacom.net> Jay West wrote: > If we were gonna do a homebrew CPU, I'd sure like to see it done with > something akin to AMD 2901's. Why not build a retro cpu out of a retro > technology? Makes sense. But, do you try to design some "classic" processor or just some "classic 2901 design"? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Aug 13 01:28:34 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DEC5AC.5070609@dakotacom.net> References: <200608120751.k7C7pjRa024797@dewey.classiccmp.org> <009701c6be64$052b5210$6700a8c0@BILLING> <44DEC5AC.5070609@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Aug 2006, Don wrote: > Jay West wrote: > > If we were gonna do a homebrew CPU, I'd sure like to see it done with > > something akin to AMD 2901's. Why not build a retro cpu out of a retro > > technology? > > Makes sense. But, do you try to design some "classic" > processor or just some "classic 2901 design"? It came to me tonight that maybe a TTL-based 8086 would be fun with all the busses, registers, and other things were brought out to a front panel. The Magic-1 runs at 4MHz, so maybe an discrete-built 8086 would be fast enough. It would be a fun thing to hack FreeDOS with. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 13 02:41:47 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 07:41:47 +0000 Subject: Asynch designs In-Reply-To: <200608122040.36930.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4027170d3ba94cf99ae514821373689d@valleyimplants.com> <44DE6909.1040805@dakotacom.net> <200608122040.36930.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44DED7BB.4050500@yahoo.co.uk> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Saturday 12 August 2006 07:49 pm, Don wrote: >> IIRC, in the UK they have mobile units that wander around trying >> to see how many televisions each home has (?) > > I remember reading about that some time ago (decades?) Yeah, they've been around for years. It's illegal to have anything capable of receiving TV broadcasts in the UK without having a licence (about 160GBP/year, approx $140US). Doesn't matter if the equipment isn't switched on - if it's capable of receiving a signal then a licence is needed. The vans can only detect a switched-on set, of course. I don't know if they can detect plasma screens or not - possibly, but not sure. Seem to recall that they use a directional antenna and just pick up on certain frequencies generated by all conventional sets. > and wondering since > then how much that whole thing had gotten messed up since computer monitors > had come into the picture. Not many people watch TV on a computer screen though. Who'd want to? They're tiny in comparison to the average TV, plus the higher resolution of the computer display actually makes for a worse picture cheers J. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 13 03:04:34 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 08:04:34 +0000 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <44DE34EB.7070101@dakotacom.net> References: <44DE091A.1030401@neurotica.com> <44DE0CB2.2080106@dakotacom.net> <44DE3284.3060700@neurotica.com> <44DE34EB.7070101@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44DEDD12.4030001@yahoo.co.uk> Don wrote: >>> I think that skirts the appeal of a *real* "miniture PDP". >>> E.g., why not just do the whole design in an FPGA? It would >>> be a pretty boring accomplishment.... :-( >> >> Huh? I don't think so, at least not for me. I'm totally in love >> with my SBC6120, which is at least a move in that direction. I can >> run it 24/7 and just have it available on a serial port which I can >> get to when I'm not home, for some OS/8 hacking when I get the itch. > > But, you can make the move all the way "in that direction" > and just run an emulator. :> I.e. the appeal is having > the actual hardware. And, while PDP's are reasonably > commonplace, having a *tiny* one (imagine a 10x10x10 8/i > sitting on your COFFEE TABLE :> ) would be truly unique. If you're going to build a miniature system out of modern components, why not just use a FPGA? :-) Once the decision's been made to not stick with the original hardware, then surely any construction technique is fair game? -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 13 03:11:42 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 08:11:42 +0000 Subject: Questions on convergence... In-Reply-To: <200608122049.50247.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <3e34a0420608121700p5f0a8213kc9cb0f105548ff9a@mail.gmail.com> <200608122049.50247.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44DEDEBE.3040201@yahoo.co.uk> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > The other thing is, to do a proper convergence needs a signal that's going to > give you a stable pattern I've seen at least one manufacturer built that functionality into their displays, under control of a test switch inside the monitor. Nice idea, but I suppose it's only relevant for screens that have their own microprocessor - which probably also means that the convergence settings are stored in some form of NV RAM and need a manufacturer's test program to change them :( > Monitors are apparently moving into the "not worth fixing" category any more. > And I just saw one offer of a couple of them on a local freecycle list. And > didn't go for them as I have pleny of them on hand now... Yep, I tend to see a handful of 17" and 19" displays offered on the local list each week, usually from companies who have upgraded to LCDs and don't want the hassle of disposing of their old CRTs responsibly. 21" screens being offered free are still quite rare - or at least a modern-ish 21" screen; doubtless a plea for some of the old 21" Hitachi/Sony goldfish bowl displays would turn up quite a few... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 13 03:14:13 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 08:14:13 +0000 Subject: ID these boards? In-Reply-To: References: <200608111337.56224.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608111428140589.25597296@10.0.0.252> <200608121349.58757.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44DEDF55.6020404@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/13/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> On Friday 11 August 2006 11:18 pm, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > Got any pictures? I'm curious to see what it looks like. >> >> Nope, but I do have the boards laying here. Gotta get a digital >> camera one >> of these days... > > Got a flatbed scanner? They make nice pictures of boards. Not necessarily. Of the three that I've tried, none of them had sufficient field depth to do a decent job. They'd handle the underside of the board well enough, but couldn't cope with the topside being raised off the scanner bed a quarter inch or so by the components. cheers J. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 02:36:41 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 00:36:41 -0700 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <44DEDD12.4030001@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44DE091A.1030401@neurotica.com> <44DE0CB2.2080106@dakotacom.net> <44DE3284.3060700@neurotica.com> <44DE34EB.7070101@dakotacom.net> <44DEDD12.4030001@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44DED689.9010307@dakotacom.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Don wrote: >>>> I think that skirts the appeal of a *real* "miniture PDP". >>>> E.g., why not just do the whole design in an FPGA? It would >>>> be a pretty boring accomplishment.... :-( >>> >>> Huh? I don't think so, at least not for me. I'm totally in love >>> with my SBC6120, which is at least a move in that direction. I can >>> run it 24/7 and just have it available on a serial port which I can >>> get to when I'm not home, for some OS/8 hacking when I get the itch. >> >> But, you can make the move all the way "in that direction" >> and just run an emulator. :> I.e. the appeal is having >> the actual hardware. And, while PDP's are reasonably >> commonplace, having a *tiny* one (imagine a 10x10x10 8/i >> sitting on your COFFEE TABLE :> ) would be truly unique. > > If you're going to build a miniature system out of modern components, > why not just use a FPGA? :-) That was the point I made elsewhere. The novelty of making a miniature system out of the same components (more or less) that the original device was made with just using newer packaging (e.g., SMT). If an FPGA is fair game, then why not just use an emulation? Same reason that a miniature pinball machine is "cool" while a "video pinball machine" quickly becomes a yawner... > Once the decision's been made to not stick with the original hardware, > then surely any construction technique is fair game? > > From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 02:40:11 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 00:40:11 -0700 Subject: ID these boards? In-Reply-To: <44DEDF55.6020404@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200608111337.56224.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608111428140589.25597296@10.0.0.252> <200608121349.58757.rtellason@verizon.net> <44DEDF55.6020404@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44DED75B.4060000@dakotacom.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On 8/13/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> On Friday 11 August 2006 11:18 pm, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> > Got any pictures? I'm curious to see what it looks like. >>> >>> Nope, but I do have the boards laying here. Gotta get a digital >>> camera one >>> of these days... >> >> Got a flatbed scanner? They make nice pictures of boards. > > Not necessarily. Of the three that I've tried, none of them had > sufficient field depth to do a decent job. They'd handle the underside > of the board well enough, but couldn't cope with the topside being > raised off the scanner bed a quarter inch or so by the components. I regularly scan PCB's -- though I strip them, first (for exactly this reason). Of course, if it's a one-of-a-kind item, I wouldn't trash it like this. But, so many things are "dirt common" that it just isn't worth trying to save ALL of them. I'll be stripping an NCD-14c, 19r and 88K in the next week or two on their way to the trash. I figure documenting the circuitry is worth more than *they* are :-/ From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Sun Aug 13 03:24:20 2006 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:24:20 +0200 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Something like this: http://www.anysystems.nl/hjs22.html This microprogrammed TTL CPU and IO unit where build by me in 1976/77. Regards Henk. > I was wondering if there's anyone else out there interested in someday > building a Magic-1 and/or D16 homebrewed CPU computers. If so, I'd like > to organize a group buy for some of the harder to source parts. > Specifically, the 74F382 and probably 74F381. My favorite chip broker has > a $50 minimum order. > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Aug 13 03:08:34 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 09:08:34 +0100 Subject: Asynch designs In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:40:36 EDT." <200608122040.36930.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608130808.JAA32331@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Roy J. Tellason said: > On Saturday 12 August 2006 07:49 pm, Don wrote: > > IIRC, in the UK they have mobile units that wander around trying > > to see how many televisions each home has (?) > > I remember reading about that some time ago (decades?), and wondering since > then how much that whole thing had gotten messed up since computer monitors > had come into the picture. The detector vans looked for the local oscillator radiation from the tuner, uhf for the past 20 years or so, using a pair of rotateable horn antennas to get a precise fix on the set. I don't think they use them any more, I've not seen one for years. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Aug 13 03:03:58 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 09:03:58 +0100 Subject: Asynch designs In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:17:53 CDT." <4027170d3ba94cf99ae514821373689d@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200608130803.JAA32318@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Scott Quinn said: > > > > Supposedly, non-clocked logic can also offer greater security because > >there's no clock signal for remote sensors to key on when trying to > >sense what the CPU is doing. This seemed a little odd to me. Do > >espionage types really try to sense what a processor is doing > >remotely, based on the EM emissions from the chip? > > Don't know about processors, but Tempest had a proof of concept for intercepting I/O from kbd/video. > (Anyone else remember Tempest? for a while they were selling big "tinfoil hat" type shields for monitors and then, suddenly, > it went away.) Was that NSA that came up with the POC? You can buy clock-chip oscillator modules with a built-in random jitter to make this sort of interception more difficult. I came across them in a catalog a while back. ISTR a note saying they were not available in the US :-) You can buy motherboards with this feature too. The monitor is the easiest device to read remotely, I saw a demo on tv a few years back. Of course networking, especially wireless, has made snooping much easier. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Aug 13 05:47:21 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 05:47:21 -0500 Subject: EX2000 Floppy Drive Tester In-Reply-To: <200608122028.48550.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608122110.k7CLAe64032030@monisys.caonisys.ca> Message-ID: <200608130950.k7D9odB1029947@monisys.caonisys.ca> > > What exactly does the "drive excerciser" do which comes in handy? -- I've > > got some diagnostics and drive test tools built into ImageDisk which I find > > very useful, and I'd be happy to add any other such functions that folks > > need (provided of course that it can be done with the PC hardware). > > It's been ages since I used it, probably last in about the 1990-2 timeframe, > but the main thing is to be able to read out the drive's speed in RPM (I > guess they use the index pulse for that?) and to be able to step the drive to > specific tracks, which is where the alignment disk comes in to the picture. ImageDisk can do all of this and more ... You can't read the index pulse directly on the PC controller, however I can time the occurance of a particular sector ID passing under the head which gives me the ability to test the speed. You can also step the drive to any track, analyze tracks, read tracks, format tracks, write tracks and see the results of a continuous read-id loop all under full manual control, and with a real-time display of the Fault, Ready, Double- sided, Write-protect and Track-0 indications from the drive as well as the sector-IDs passing under the head. You can even write the buffered results of the last single-track read out to a .IMD file so that when you manage to bludgeon the drive into reading that !$#%@^ track thats been eluding you all night you can save it and merge it into the rest of the disk image with IMDU. I was just curious if there were any other functions built into the specialized drive tester that I have not yet covered... Never owned/used such a piece of equipment myself... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Aug 13 05:47:21 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 05:47:21 -0500 Subject: EX2000 Floppy Drive Tester In-Reply-To: <200608121436570361.2A87C95B@10.0.0.252> References: <200608122110.k7CLAe64032030@monisys.caonisys.ca> Message-ID: <200608130950.k7D9odB3029947@monisys.caonisys.ca> > >What exactly does the "drive excerciser" do which comes in handy? -- I've > >got some diagnostics and drive test tools built into ImageDisk which I find > >very useful, and I'd be happy to add any other such functions that folks > > need (provided of course that it can be done with the PC hardware). > > Doing a good job on drive alignment generally requires an alignment > diskette and a 'scope. However, there were alignment diskettes produced > with tracks that were skewed across the width of a track. The idea being > that you listed the sectors that could be read and that would tell you > approximately how far off alignment you were. Thats an intersting way to do it - must have been fun making those disks! You should be able to use one of these disks with the ImageDisk test.align function, because it allows you to seek to any track, and to re-analyze the disk at any time - this will output a list of sectors identified. Agreed that you need a proper alignment disk (and scope) to do it exactly right, however I've built an alternative into ImageDisk for people without an alignment disk which have had very good results with. Basically, it goes into a continuous read-id loop, and for each revolution, I show the number of sectors found which matches the physical track number, and also the number which doesn't match - I also generate a beep which increases in frequency the more "correct track" sector IDs are found. So you start with a disk of "known good alignment" - or in some cases, "the disk that you are trying to read which has obviously bad alignment" - seek to various tracks across the width of the disk , and mark the positioner spot in the center of where the bounds of the highest frequency beep is heard (the audible way in nice, because you can keep your eyes on the drive). Once you get the knack of it, you can zero in on a disk pretty quickly - I keep a couple of easy to align drives around just so that I can tweek them for out-of-alignment disks. > Back in the belt-drive DC motor days, things like Instantaneous Speed > Variation were important, but you don't see that being tested on the > direct-drive models now. Just a simple averaged speed check is adequate on > modern drives. Tricky to do with PC hardware - I suppose you could time the interval between each ID in a read-ID loop, however the ISV of the drive that formatted the disk would also have an effect on your results. Again a "known good disk" would be required. Is this a function that would be worth putting into ImageDisks test menu? I personally don't think so... I don't think I've ever seen a drive where the ISV was bad enough to prevent reading... But it might be handy just to keep an eye on how your older drives are performing. > Leadscrew positioners (or even the cam-and-follower type in the SA400) > sometimes display backlash, which can be checked with an alignment diskette > by approaching the same track from the inside and the outside tracks. > Taut-band positioners generally don't show much backlash. But in the bad > old days, recovery from a data error could took the form of: > > 1. Re-read in place 3 trimes > 2. Recalibrate (seek to track zero), seek to track and re-read > 3. Recalibrate, seek past the track and then step backwards and re-read A variation of #3 is step out and back (faster than recalibrate) - ImageDisk does all of these. I'll add another rather unorthodox one - power the drive motor off and back on. Not useful in standard usage, however when reading forign formats on a PC, believe it or not, I've seen disks where the first or last sector on the track can't be read at full speed, but can be read as the drive is coming up to speed. When set to it's maxium "try and get it no matter what", ImageDisk will do this, and it has enabled me to read a couple of disks that I "just couldn't get" by other means. > 4. Recalibrate, single-step to the track and re-read. This one I don't do - It's main use is to compensate for drives that are too slow for the step rate - since ImageDisk typically only done one track at a time steps, I simply use a nice low step rate (and let the user reprogram it if he wants). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 13 07:48:48 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 08:48:48 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200608131302.k7DD22Nm090654@keith.ezwind.net> On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 22:34:21 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >> Really?? That was before my time (born in '69)...I had no idea >> people whined about the advent of PCBs. >Yes, but just like the SMT issue, it was mostly because people were >not us9ing the right tools. Early PCBs were crap - no wonder their >200W Wen soldering guns lifted the traces. >-- >Will THen there were those that that mounted vacum tubes on PCB's and the circuit heat of the tubes lifted traces over time. Not to mention carbon trails and arcing around load resistors mounted too close and cooked the boards. PSB's were not reliable untill the advent of transistors ! Bob From austin at ozpass.co.uk Sun Aug 13 04:54:54 2006 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:54:54 +0100 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <200608122336.k7CNa6vt073954@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 13/8/06 00:36, "aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk" wrote: > > What does ADB stand for? The reason I ask > is that my initials are ADB (my middle name is > David), and every time I see it in a message > it throws me for a split second. In this context it stands for Apple Desktop Bus. It?s a means of attaching keyboards and mice to pre-USB Apple Macintosh computers. -Austin. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Aug 13 08:34:41 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 09:34:41 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608131302.k7DD22Nm090654@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608131302.k7DD22Nm090654@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20060813133441.D8956BA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Bob" wrote: > On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 22:34:21 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > >> Really?? That was before my time (born in '69)...I had no idea > >> people whined about the advent of PCBs. > > >Yes, but just like the SMT issue, it was mostly because people were > >not us9ing the right tools. Early PCBs were crap - no wonder their > >200W Wen soldering guns lifted the traces. > > >-- > >Will > > THen there were those that that mounted vacum tubes on > PCB's and the circuit heat of the tubes > lifted traces over time. PCB quality has gotten a lot better over the years. "Modern" PCB's with tubes on them do just fine. But yeah, I have a lot of 50's/60's era radios where no glue holds the trace to the board anymore, just the solder connections at the ends! > Not to mention carbon trails and arcing around load resistors mounted too > close and cooked the boards. PSB's were not reliable untill the > advent of transistors ! But it wasn't the fault of the tubes. In fact transistor circuits that have any sort of power density (e.g. a regulator) put much more thermal and resulting physical stress on the PCB than any tube ever did. I would argue that the stresses of transistor density drove mass PCB production into a regime of very high quality/endurance. When talking about 50's and 60's era PCB's don't forget the nasty tendency for traces to develop hairline cracks for no apparent reason! A lot of similar-to-PCB construction techniques were and still are used with tubes. "Turret boards" and similar boards using real traces are highly associated with the best-quality construction techniques. Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Aug 13 08:55:47 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 09:55:47 -0400 Subject: Computers and heat density Message-ID: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Recent posts on the subject of "modern" logic families and PCB's make me think of an obvious trend in computing over the past several decades: Power density (and required cooling/heat dissipation) have grown greatly. A desktop PC of 20 years ago often had no fan, or if it had one it was just to generally keep air moving through the case and not to cool any specific heat producing sections. Of course modern desktop PC's (since at least the early/mid 90's) have vastly greater heat production and cooling requirements, with CPU heat sinks and fans being vital to reliability. At the same time, and a subject of increasing frustration for me, the number of computers required to do a given task has gone up exponentially. Tasks that used to (meaning 20 or 30 years ago) used to require a single PDP-8 or PDP-11 class minicomputer now use dozens to hundreds of PC-clone's to do the same functions. The heat production (and power and cooling requirements) of all the resulting PC-clones is hugely higher. In fact through the recent heat wave, computer/server usage is mentioned as a sizable component of total power consumption on the grid, when presumably 20 or 30 years ago it was negligible. I personally see massive government/military contractor computer projects turn into a race to buy the fastest/biggest/best/most computers with little regard as to whether you need hundreds of blade servers to run a single web site or mail server. It is also frustrating to see Peoplesoft/Oracle/Microsoft sell thousands and thousands of licenses at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars when the same function used to be done by a single PDP-11 with a couple of RK05's! Yet nobody seems to be asking: WHY DOES IT TAKE 100 COMPUTERS TO DO WHAT A SINGLE COMPUTER USED TO DO? After all, computers today are hundreds of times more powerful (CPU-wise) than they used to be. Disk storage is vastly more compact power efficient than it used to be. Don't get me wrong, I'm not sure everyone should have the same appreciation that those of us reading this message for "that computer of 30 years ago is good enough for what I do". Yet I would expect that any real demand for actual computer utility would make some sort of progress other than "buy ten thousand seats of Oracle licenses and several hundred oracle servers just to serve the needs of a single municipal city government HR and payroll". Some random articles about building sites where the required power/ cooling density is either explicitly addressed or in retorspect they didn't have enough: NSA risking electrical overload (Baltimore Sun): http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.nsapower06aug06,0,5137448.story?coll=bal-home-headlines Google's Server Farm with massive cooling towers: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/17/BUGA3JUO7M1.DTL OK, diatribe mode off. I'm going back to my 6SN7's and 807's playing some old 78's I got at the thrift store yesterday. Tim. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 13 09:04:30 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:04:30 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608122058.QAA18709@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> <200608122058.QAA18709@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <0ea8b7f6c80b0ef206134f8b84c7b557@neurotica.com> On Aug 12, 2006, at 4:48 PM, der Mouse wrote: >>> This sounds as though you're talking strictly about soldering them >>> to a printed-circuit board. If so, that's a lose right there, >>> compared to DIPs, if you can't connect to them (without equipment >>> prohibitively expensive for hobbyist use) except via a PCB. >> Well that's pretty much a given...there's really no other way to do >> that. [...] > > So, there's a fairly clear way in which surface-mount is harder to work > with than DIPs: you can't breadboard the things, and doing flying leads > is (at best) a good deal harder. > >> Quick-turn PCB houses are super cheap these days, though, > > Hm? So moving to SMT means that instead of buying a $1.19 part to > breadboard a circuit with, I instead can buy a $0.89 part and throw > $12.99 at the minimum order for a PCB so I can connect to it. > > Remind me again how surface mount is better? > > Oh, okay, let's say I can bundle ten chips' PCBs into that order. So I > have $0.89+$1.299. This is still a dollar more than the $1.19 DIP. Ok, you don't like surface mount technology. I get the point. >> As I've said a few times, things are *different*...trying to treat it >> like "a smaller version of through-hole construction" will not work. > > Different...and harder, it appears, since at a minimum you need less > common (and more expensive) tools, Less common in the workshops of people who do nothing but through-hole assembly perhaps. > and that's if you're doing a > finished design and just trying to assemble the thing. If you're > breadboarding, even your parts are more expensive, since you have to > add the piggyback carrier to the part cost. As I said above...it's clear you don't like surface mount technology, and you're going to PICK PICK PICK at any positive thing anyone says about it, totally ignoring statements from people who actually have real-world experience with it. That sure is a nice attitude. Now I remember why I left this list a few years ago. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 13 09:07:12 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:07:12 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608122042.QAA18598@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200608111432030130.255CEF51@10.0.0.252> <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608112042.29509.rtellason@verizon.net> <44DE05AF.9010904@neurotica.com> <200608122042.QAA18598@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Aug 12, 2006, at 4:40 PM, der Mouse wrote: >> Well again, like I said, it's *different*. [...] When I buy a bag >> of 0.1uF bypass capacitors in through-hole packages, for example, I >> open the bag and dump them in to the parts drawer. When I buy a reel >> of surface-mount 0.1uF capacitors though, I leave them on the reel >> and store the reels in much larger parts drawers. You remove the >> parts from the tape one at a time as you use them...at that level >> there's no need to look at the parts themselves to identify them. > > At that point, no. But that's treating the boards as build-only > designs, which makes about as much sense as writing write-only code. "Build-only" designs? My past TWELVE designs were pure SMT except for connectors and some crystals. Each and every one was prototyped and debugged until working. The worst-case took ONE etch rev. Why? Because I pay attention to what I'm doing. See below. > When you're trying to figure out what's on an existing board, or when > you're trying to figure out why something doesn't work and it's because > you put a wrong-value part in place, markings are important. Yeah. You actually have to pay attention to what you're doing. What a concept. And when you screw up because you weren't paying attention, you actually need some troubleshooting skills. Wow, another neat concept! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 13 09:09:54 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:09:54 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: References: <200608120751.k7C7pjRa024797@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <28eb418638a7eb0e24480fc77d8d6f46@neurotica.com> On Aug 12, 2006, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Walther wrote: >> Yup, get ready to solder .2 mm balls on 800 balls BGA. >> Get your toaster-oven ready ;-) > > BGA components have a specification for the clearance between the chip > package and the circuit board after soldering. I don't think you > could meet that just by putting the thing in the oven. Very true...but I've looked far & wide for a reason for that specification to exist, and have found none. The only thing I can think of is the possible flattening out of the balls causing them to short against adjacent ones...but is that really possible? Not sure. > I don't know how one reballs BGA components though. Anyone care to > explain? One "reballing" kit that I've seen has very thin metal "masks" which you place over the chip, and you slather solder paste through that with something that looks like a squeegee. It's similar to applying paste solder to a PCB with a stencil. I don't know how effective that method is. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Aug 13 09:10:09 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 08:10:09 -0600 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <44DF32C1.7000508@e-bbes.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Yet nobody seems to be asking: WHY DOES IT TAKE 100 COMPUTERS TO DO WHAT > A SINGLE COMPUTER USED TO DO? After all, computers today are hundreds > of times more powerful (CPU-wise) than they used to be. Disk storage > is vastly more compact power efficient than it used to be. GUIs and lousy programmers ... There was a time you could use pretty big (and actually very easy to use) programs just with function key and some shortcuts. Now, we have graphics boards with 256 bit wide memory, 256 MBytes of it. Go figure ;-) Cheers From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 13 09:16:16 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:16:16 -0400 Subject: SMT hobby projects (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <200608122050.k7CKoJb9070854@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608122050.k7CKoJb9070854@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <6236695120e992e234e8d3da7b94eb64@neurotica.com> On Aug 12, 2006, at 4:50 PM, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: >> I bought a pneumatic solder paste pump for $75, >> and two different >> very high-end hot air pencils for $50 and $120, al > l >> on eBay over the >> past several years. The stuff is out there. $50 >> for an air pencil >> which will likely run for decades is not a bad >> investment in my opinion. > > As a newish member and someone not > experienced in circuit board repairs/modification, > could someone please explain what they (the > pneumatic solder paste pump and the hot-air > pencil) do, please? These tools are mainly used for surface-mount assembly and/or rework. The pneumatic solder paste pump is for dispensing solder paste in metered amounts. Solder paste is tiny spheres of solder in a semi-liquid flux carrier. It is typically sold in syringes that look like the ones for medical use. For manual dispensing, you put on the right sized tip (where the needle would go) for the size of pads you're working with, and squeeze out some solder paste on each of the pads. The trouble is, the paste is very thick, and (especially with smaller-diameter tips) your hand will get tired and achy VERY quickly. Pneumatic dispensers have a hose which clamps onto the "hand" end of the syringe and pump bursts of compressed air into it to force the solder out through the tip. The pressure and volume of the air is tightly controlled by the dispenser unit to squeeze out the correct quantity of solder. This is usually done under the control of a foot switch. A hot-air pencil is very simple. It looks like a standard soldering iron, except instead of a solid metal tip that gets hot, it has a hollow metal tip through which very hot air is blown. You basically blow hot air at the joint you want to solder instead of transferring the heat to it by touching it with the hot tip. If you are interested in seeing what this stuff looks like, I can take some pictures of my equipment and put them on a web server. Let me know. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 13 09:23:53 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:23:53 -0400 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <44DED689.9010307@dakotacom.net> References: <44DE091A.1030401@neurotica.com> <44DE0CB2.2080106@dakotacom.net> <44DE3284.3060700@neurotica.com> <44DE34EB.7070101@dakotacom.net> <44DEDD12.4030001@yahoo.co.uk> <44DED689.9010307@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: On Aug 13, 2006, at 3:36 AM, Don wrote: > If an FPGA is fair game, then why not just use an > emulation? This is a very good point, and (personally) I don't have an answer for it, so I think it just boils down to personal preference. I am bored to tears with emulators...but an FPGA implementation of a classic machine is something that I find very drool-worthy. I think it's a matter of the feeling of "fakeness". The FPGA implementation is REAL HARDWARE...Real logic gates implementing an architecture, instead of emulation...which is SIMulation. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 13 09:34:33 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:34:33 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <44DE4FF5.7050905@gmail.com> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> <44DE08FC.80101@dakotacom.net> <200608121132430606.29DF1F0E@10.0.0.252> <44DE32C2.3050709@dakotacom.net> <200608121329290029.2A4A03B7@10.0.0.252> <44DE4253.2020803@dakotacom.net> <44DE4FF5.7050905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6bf9893ceebdc122ea79cf7953cf2bad@neurotica.com> On Aug 12, 2006, at 6:02 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Before I got LASIK, with my glasses off, I couldn't see the big "E" at > the top of the chart. From fifteen feet away, I could tell a person > was standing there, but seeing their hand would be pushing it. I > certainly would have had a hard time recognizing who it was. Yeah once I actually had Sridhar convinced I was Britney Spears. He started giggling like a twelve-year-old girl. ;) Speaking of giggling...Sridhar, I just came across the pictures of your "mobile VAXcluster" in the trunk of your old Camry, when you first showed up at my place in Florida years ago: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/sridhars-mobile-vaxcluster-1.jpg http://www.neurotica.com/misc/sridhars-mobile-vaxcluster-2.jpg (I guess this "sorta" makes this on-topic!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 13 10:52:04 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:52:04 +0000 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <44DF4AA4.9040703@yahoo.co.uk> Tim Shoppa wrote: > Yet nobody seems to be asking: WHY DOES IT TAKE 100 COMPUTERS TO DO WHAT > A SINGLE COMPUTER USED TO DO? After all, computers today are hundreds > of times more powerful (CPU-wise) than they used to be. Disk storage > is vastly more compact power efficient than it used to be. As a species we're lazy and impatient as all hell. Nobody in any position to change things is going to want to produce an efficient, elegant solution that reduces costs in the long term if the money's there to just throw more resources at a problem and make cost savings in the short term. If they don't take that approach, somebody else will. Long term thinking just doesn't enter into it; by the time the system's fallen over into a smouldering heap the people responsible will long since have moved on to the next short-term project, leaving new people to come in, reinvent the wheel, and do the same thing all over again. Why it's getting steadily worse, I don't know. I'm tempted to lay the blame at the feet of faster and more widespread communications; if people can communicate more quickly and further afield then there'll be more pressure to get a job done as quickly as possible and with an eye to short-term savings only. Had modern communications existed without computers, and the computer only invented now, I expect we would have seen a raft of giant inefficient systems springing up almost overnight and the specialised machines of past decades just wouldn't have happened. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Aug 13 10:07:47 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:07:47 -0400 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <44DF4AA4.9040703@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44DF4AA4.9040703@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20060813150747.271A0BA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Why it's getting steadily worse, I don't know. I'm tempted to lay the blame at > the feet of faster and more widespread communications; if people can > communicate more quickly and further afield then there'll be more pressure to > get a job done as quickly as possible and with an eye to short-term savings only. I was tempted to think that in the 2000 era we had gotten past the hump of "buy more hardware because it's cheap" stage. In fact the collapse of many sectors of domestic telecom/computer hardware industry in the 2000/2001/2002 timeframe made me think that perhaps we had gotten past that. But... no. It continues, and seems to have spread into the Peoplesoft/Oracle/Microsoft licensing stage ("oh heck, just buy a few thousand more licenses"). > Had modern communications existed without computers, and the computer only > invented now, I expect we would have seen a raft of giant inefficient systems > springing up almost overnight and the specialised machines of past decades > just wouldn't have happened. Some of the more interesting computers of the 60's and 70's are in fact telecom switches and the computers that controlled them, and as far as I can see these were built/bought/deployed entirely with good economic justification (reduced maintenance/ease of reprovisioning) rather than just industry buzzwords as justification. Maybe I'm looking at that era with rose-colored glasses :-). Tim. From cc at corti-net.de Sun Aug 13 10:30:21 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 17:30:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Micom Data Concentrator Message-ID: Hi, I have two Micom Micro800/2 DataConcentrators and can't get them to do anything useful. I think they are concentrators/multiplexors that multiplex 8 terminal lines over one high-speed serial line. The problem is I don't have any manuals for them nor any other information like pinouts or switch settings, does anyone have the manual in electronic form? I only have a manual for the Micro800/X.25 Concentrator PAD. Christian From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun Aug 13 10:30:54 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:30:54 -0400 Subject: Questions on convergence... In-Reply-To: <200608130949.k7D9nQ4Q048678@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <006001c6beed$777a05d0$6c00a8c0@barry> Convergence is the adjustment by which a monitor or TV properly overlaps the 3 separate red, blue and green images to produce a proper color image. It applies to all CRT based TV sets and monitors except those using a single image forming module for all 3 colors (e.g. DLP and most (but not all) LCD projectors, and LCD and plasma screens). Normally there are two steps, the first is "static convergence" in which the 3 images (red, blue and green) are adjusted to overlap at the exact center of the screen. The second is dynamic convergence in which the rest of the screen is "converged". Note that "perfect" convergence is generally not possible, but modern devices get very close. Also note that on some newer CRTs, some or all of the convergence adjustments are fixed at the factory and cannot be adjusted. Static convergence is usually adjusted using magnets on the CRT neck (again, common practice today is that these are set at the factory and then epoxy glued). Dynamic convergence is complex, if it's adjustable at all there can be as many as 30-40 controls effecting different colors in different parts of the screen. You also need a test pattern generator to make this adjustment (although on a computer (vs. a TV), you might be able to do it with a black screen and the letter "H" in various places). I can't give you any help for your specific device, you need to locate a service manual or you probably won't be able to do much with it. From vrs at msn.com Sun Aug 13 10:33:47 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 08:33:47 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org><44DD5846.40704@dakotacom.net> <44DD6076.7030507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: "woodelf" > Don wrote: > > Solder paste and hot air are infinitely easier. > > > But can you do POPCORN too. :) > Still I would like to see in surface mount --- > tiny Flip/Clips and see how small you can build > a PDP-{Favorate number}. One thing that I think *would* be awesome in surface mount, would be to do a "scale model" based on the straight-8, with all those little SMT diodes and transistors, and no logic IC's at all (except possibly some SMT RAM to replace the core planes) :-). Vince (It might also be cool to make some of the diodes the glowing kind.) From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Aug 13 10:41:06 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 08:41:06 -0700 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608130841060246.52D8AB11@192.168.42.129> Hi, Don, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 12-Aug-06 at 15:48 Don wrote: >It doesn't take long to realize that this is a non-solution: >- keyboards are PS2, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. >- mice are PS2, Serial, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. >- video is Sun's 13W3, HD15, DEC's RGB, apple's DB15, etc. > >Does anyone make a *truly* universal KVM (i.e. so that >I can mix and match all of these flavors)? And, how >outrageously priced is it? Yes indeed. I've seen a couple of them at RE-PC in Tukwila (Washington). They were made by Cybex, and bear the name 'Commander.' They consist of a mainframe which is configured for different system types through the use of different plug-in modules. The cables are interesting in that they're all high-density D-sub shell (D-25 sized, but about 70 or so pins) at the switch end, and the other end fanned out into KV and M plugs appropriate for the system you were working with. The mainframe itself accepted a standard PC keyboard and mouse (PS/2 style), and electronically adapted it to drive whatever was plugged into the switch. That's in the surplus arena. It is also my understanding that Raritan, Avocent (formerly Apex) and others make current-production universal switches. However, most of them seem to have price tags in the low four-figure range. Happy hunting. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 13 10:43:23 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:43:23 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608131302.k7DD22Nm090654@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608131302.k7DD22Nm090654@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200608131143.23606.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 13 August 2006 08:48 am, Bob wrote: > On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 22:34:21 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Really?? That was before my time (born in '69)...I had no idea > >> people whined about the advent of PCBs. > > > >Yes, but just like the SMT issue, it was mostly because people were > >not us9ing the right tools. Early PCBs were crap - no wonder their > >200W Wen soldering guns lifted the traces. > > > >-- > >Will > > THen there were those that that mounted vacum tubes on PCB's and the > circuit heat of the tubes lifted traces over time. Not to mention carbon > trails and arcing around load resistors mounted too close and cooked the > boards. PSB's were not reliable untill the advent of transistors ! The tube sockets that mounted to a board with round pins (that were split in the middle) or with flat pins weren't too bad, but I remember encountering some stuff, one GE set in particularl stands out in my memory, where they'd actually put a hole in the board the diameter of the socket! That one had one or more sockets missing, along with several tubes missing. It amazed me that the owner actually considered it worth fixing when I came up with the estimate at the time... (1974!) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 13 11:58:25 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 16:58:25 +0000 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <20060813150747.271A0BA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44DF4AA4.9040703@yahoo.co.uk> <20060813150747.271A0BA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <44DF5A31.9090205@yahoo.co.uk> Tim Shoppa wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> Why it's getting steadily worse, I don't know. I'm tempted to lay the blame at >> the feet of faster and more widespread communications; if people can >> communicate more quickly and further afield then there'll be more pressure to >> get a job done as quickly as possible and with an eye to short-term savings only. > > I was tempted to think that in the 2000 era we had gotten past the hump > of "buy more hardware because it's cheap" stage. I think the problem there was that the software guys saw that people were buying lots of hardware because it was cheap, and bloated their code out to match :( >> Had modern communications existed without computers, and the computer only >> invented now, I expect we would have seen a raft of giant inefficient systems >> springing up almost overnight and the specialised machines of past decades >> just wouldn't have happened. > > Some of the more interesting computers of the 60's and 70's are in fact > telecom switches and the computers that controlled them, and as far as > I can see these were built/bought/deployed entirely with good > economic justification (reduced maintenance/ease of reprovisioning) > rather than just industry buzzwords as > justification. Maybe I'm looking at that era with rose-colored glasses :-). Oh, there was certainly some good hardware around. Actually, for embedded type systems like telecomms, I believe that they haven't seen anything like the kind of bloat that's around for desktop / server systems. But the fact that ever-faster telecomms equipment was ever in vented in the first place has a lot to do with the problem I think (and not just in computing, but all aspects of society). As soon as it's possible to ask a question of someone halfway around the world and demand an answer in the same day, or reach them whilst they're visiting the bathroom, there's bound to be trouble! From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Aug 13 11:10:55 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:10:55 -0500 Subject: KVMs Message-ID: <894b130e725b46248e5bf81a89103d9c@valleyimplants.com> And lo, Don spake thusly > Hmmm... my U10 has VGVA and a 13W3. I assume one >overrides the other? They are two seperate framebuffers, and can be used for dual-heading. The 13w3 is either a Creator/ffb or an Elite3d, and will be much more satisfactory than the PGX (ATi) onboard. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Aug 13 11:14:13 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:14:13 -0500 Subject: Asynch designs (OT) Message-ID: > Yeah, they've been around for years. It's illegal to have anything capable of >receiving TV broadcasts in the UK without having a licence (about 160GBP/year, >approx $140US). Doesn't matter if the equipment isn't switched on - if it's >capable of receiving a signal then a licence is needed. They're becoming worse then! It used to be black&white was exempted from the tax. What happened to the pound? used to be substantially more valuable than the dollar. From ken at seefried.com Sun Aug 13 11:28:26 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:28:26 -0400 Subject: async designs In-Reply-To: <200608122254.k7CMsiF4038271@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608122254.k7CMsiF4038271@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20060813162826.18886.qmail@seefried.com> From: Jeff Walther > Do > espionage types really try to sense what a processor is doing > remotely, based on the EM emissions from the chip? Yes. For example: https://www.iaik.tugraz.at/research/sca-lab/publications/pdf/Mangard2003Expl oitingRadiatedEmissions.pdf Abstract The conducted and radiated emissions of integrated circuits can not only cause interferences between electronic devices, but they also pose a security problem. The emissions of an IC executing a cryptographic algorithm contain information about the secret key used in the IC. This article gives a short introduction on how the key-dependent emissions of a cryptographic IC can be exploited. Based on two case studies, we show that the secret key used in an IC can be revealed based on measuring radiated emissions in the near and in the far field. Additionally, we discuss how the measurement setups used for the case studies can be improved to execute more advanced attacks. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 13 11:31:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 09:31:43 -0700 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608131143.23606.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608131302.k7DD22Nm090654@keith.ezwind.net> <200608131143.23606.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608130931430291.2E96AB93@10.0.0.252> Someone wrote: >> THen there were those that that mounted vacum tubes on PCB's and the >> circuit heat of the tubes lifted traces over time. Not to mention carbon >> trails and arcing around load resistors mounted too close and cooked the >> boards. PSB's were not reliable untill the advent of transistors ! There was a lot of resistance to using PCBs, even in the transistor age. IIRC, the cheap Japanese transistor radios were all PCB, but you could still buy a good US-made Automatic Radio model that featured a steel chassis with transistors in sockets, carefully handwired together. For years, printed (or rather, etched circuit) boards were a sign of inferior quality. Things generally got better when the military stared used them, because there was a demand for reliability. The change in soldering techniques has made a big difference. I've got old equipment from the early 60's that has every trace completely covered in gobs of solder with oceans of old flux between the traces. They work, but you wonder why. I think the big problem was a shift in thought. Anyone who learned to solder back in the handwired days remembers being told over and over again that "Solder does not make a mechanical connection". Or in other words, good wiring practice demanded that a wire be mechanically attached to its terminal before solder was applied. Along come PCBs and what's holding everything together? Solder. In fact, solder makes a great mechanical connection--just ask any trumpet player why his instrument doesn't fall to pieces when he picks it up--and it's the selfsame 70/30 alloy that electronics assembly uses. Cheers, Chuck From ken at seefried.com Sun Aug 13 11:33:29 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:33:29 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 36, Issue 40 In-Reply-To: <200608130416.k7D4G8d3042997@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608130416.k7D4G8d3042997@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20060813163329.18949.qmail@seefried.com> From: "Jay West" >If we were gonna do a homebrew CPU, I'd sure like to see it done with >something akin to AMD 2901's. Why not build a retro cpu out of a retro >technology? Do 49c402s (4 x 2901 in PGA) or 59032s (16 x 2901 in PGA) count? Ken From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 13 11:33:59 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 09:33:59 -0700 Subject: Asynch designs (OT) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608130933590697.2E98C069@10.0.0.252> On 8/13/2006 at 11:14 AM Scott Quinn wrote: >What happened to the pound? used to be substantially more valuable than the dollar. I think someone zigged when he should have zagged with his math. GBP 160 is much closer to USD 300. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 13 11:36:15 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 09:36:15 -0700 Subject: SMT hobby projects (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <6236695120e992e234e8d3da7b94eb64@neurotica.com> References: <200608122050.k7CKoJb9070854@keith.ezwind.net> <6236695120e992e234e8d3da7b94eb64@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608130936150983.2E9AD4C7@10.0.0.252> On 8/13/2006 at 10:16 AM Dave McGuire wrote: > The pneumatic solder paste pump is for dispensing solder paste in >metered amounts. Solder paste is tiny spheres of solder in a >semi-liquid flux carrier. It is typically sold in syringes that look >like the ones for medical use. All of the online information that I've seen about solder paste indicates that distributors will ship the stuff only on an overnight basis in insulated containers. Apparently it degrades slowly at room temperatures and above. Is this not true? Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 13 12:47:47 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 17:47:47 +0000 Subject: Asynch designs (OT) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DF65C3.8030305@yahoo.co.uk> Scott Quinn wrote: > >> Yeah, they've been around for years. It's illegal to have anything capable of >> receiving TV broadcasts in the UK without having a licence (about 160GBP/year, >> approx $140US). Doesn't matter if the equipment isn't switched on - if it's >> capable of receiving a signal then a licence is needed. > > They're becoming worse then! It used to be black&white was exempted from the tax. Hmm, not for a long time now - although a B+W licence is still cheaper, I believe. Up until a few years ago students used to be covered by any licence that was at their official residential address, but they stopped doing that so that they have to pay now too. Given that the licence is only for the BBC channels, and I'll perhaps watch 2-3 hours of them per week, it works out as quite an expense per programme! > What happened to the pound? used to be substantially more valuable than the dollar. I goofed :) I normally multiply pounds by two and then knock a little bit off to get a rough dollar amount - but I was half asleep this morning and didn't do the multiply by two bit first ;) cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 13 11:51:57 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:51:57 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org><44DD5846.40704@dakotacom.net> <44DD6076.7030507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Aug 13, 2006, at 11:33 AM, vrs wrote: > One thing that I think *would* be awesome in surface mount, > would be to do a "scale model" based on the straight-8, with > all those little SMT diodes and transistors, and no logic > IC's at all (except possibly some SMT RAM to replace the core > planes) :-). I've often considered doing this. General-purpose SMT diodes and transistors are super cheap. Several years ago I picked up a straight-8 print set with this in mind. > (It might also be cool to make some of the diodes the glowing kind.) Oh now that's just twisted. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Aug 13 11:58:29 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:58:29 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 double integer instructions info References: <200608111444.k7BEimf2029796@mail.bcpl.net>, <000a01c6bd97$d0543a10$0100a8c0@screamer> <200608122139.k7CLd8lG028808@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <000501c6bef9$b51b7ed0$0100a8c0@screamer> RTE IV/B firmware is more commonly found in my experience. RTE 6VM firmware is not ~rare~, but it is a little uncommon. There is also a huge collection of microcode that is associated with a 'Booster Microcode' board that extends the ALU / datapath. This microcode and hardware is used to accelerate FFT's, and is found in E-series CPU's used in HP's vibration control and analysis systems (like a HP 54410B processor). As far as I'm aware, there is no documentation for this configuration. Is anyone aware of documentation for the 54410 variant of the 2113? ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. David Bryan" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 5:39 PM Subject: Re: HP 1000 double integer instructions info > On 11 Aug 2006 at 18:45, Bob Shannon wrote: > >> Sorry for the typo, I did mean FFP, Fast Fortran. >> >> Standard on F-series, and I've only ever found one 2113 E-series CPU that >> did not have it installed.... > > On a related topic, are the RTE-6/VM microcode ROMs commonly present in > found E- and F-Series machines? There are two sets of three; the HP part > numbers are: > > 92084-80001, 2, 3 (or) -80001, 80102, 80103 (or) -80007, 8, 9 > > and: > > 92084-80004, 5, 6. > > -- Dave > > From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 12:43:05 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:43:05 -0700 Subject: NCD NC2085AA monitor Message-ID: <44DF64A9.2080304@dakotacom.net> Hi, I have several of these monitors on my NCD-19c's. I'm *sure* they are a rebadged somethingorother (since the 2085 number is the same as an old RasterOps monitor I have long since discarded). *But*, like many rebadged products, it appears to be slightly different than it's sibling products. I've not been able to find any literature that would help me sort out some of the operating characteristics. Notably, how to "adjust" the screen saver function. (perhaps it is NOT adjustable on this monitor?) Pointers or first-hand experience would be welcome :> Thanks! --don From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 12:44:12 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:44:12 -0700 Subject: Asynch designs (OT) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DF64EC.9050900@dakotacom.net> Scott Quinn wrote: > >> Yeah, they've been around for years. It's illegal to have anything capable of >> receiving TV broadcasts in the UK without having a licence (about 160GBP/year, >> approx $140US). Doesn't matter if the equipment isn't switched on - if it's >> capable of receiving a signal then a licence is needed. > > They're becoming worse then! It used to be black&white was exempted from the tax. > > What happened to the pound? used to be substantially more valuable than the dollar. Regardless of exchange rate, dollars = pounds. :-( From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 12:46:10 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:46:10 -0700 Subject: SMT hobby projects (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <200608130936150983.2E9AD4C7@10.0.0.252> References: <200608122050.k7CKoJb9070854@keith.ezwind.net> <6236695120e992e234e8d3da7b94eb64@neurotica.com> <200608130936150983.2E9AD4C7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44DF6562.2080105@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/13/2006 at 10:16 AM Dave McGuire wrote: > >> The pneumatic solder paste pump is for dispensing solder paste in >> metered amounts. Solder paste is tiny spheres of solder in a >> semi-liquid flux carrier. It is typically sold in syringes that look >> like the ones for medical use. > > All of the online information that I've seen about solder paste indicates > that distributors will ship the stuff only on an overnight basis in > insulated containers. Apparently it degrades slowly at room temperatures > and above. Is this not true? I keep mine in the refrigerator -- right next to the eggs! ;-) Makes for some interesting conversations when visiting guests fetch themselves something to drink ;-) From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 12:56:13 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:56:13 -0700 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <44DF5A31.9090205@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44DF4AA4.9040703@yahoo.co.uk> <20060813150747.271A0BA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44DF5A31.9090205@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44DF67BD.2000502@dakotacom.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Tim Shoppa wrote: >> Jules Richardson wrote: >>> Why it's getting steadily worse, I don't know. I'm tempted to lay the >>> blame at the feet of faster and more widespread communications; if >>> people can communicate more quickly and further afield then there'll >>> be more pressure to get a job done as quickly as possible and with an >>> eye to short-term savings only. >> >> I was tempted to think that in the 2000 era we had gotten past the hump >> of "buy more hardware because it's cheap" stage. > > I think the problem there was that the software guys saw that people > were buying lots of hardware because it was cheap, and bloated their > code out to match :( I don't think users understand how much they have spent for what they have "received". Take some old software and install it on a *new* machine and you will have folks drooling: "Where did you buy THAT machine?! It's 10 times faster than my 3GHZ frack-o-matic! I've got to have one! Imagine how GREAT my VIDeo GAMES would be on that box???!" And, to be honest, I think "we" (developers, etc.) also take advantage of the improvements in technology. Laziness creeps in. E.g., I had to write a nice little search algorithm to minimize a function. I didn't hesitate to pass int[50] arrays AS ARGUMENTS to the *recursive* function (e.g., it will recurse to a depth of ~50 and each invocation carries 200 bytes of int[] arguments). Sure, I could write something more elegant but it's a throw-away algorithm (to verify some parameters) that I *may* use twice more in my lifetime?? Now, how do you keep that mentality from creeping into your 9-to-5 if your boss is hounding you to get things done YESTERDAY? :< >>> Had modern communications existed without computers, and the computer >>> only invented now, I expect we would have seen a raft of giant >>> inefficient systems springing up almost overnight and the specialised >>> machines of past decades just wouldn't have happened. >> >> Some of the more interesting computers of the 60's and 70's are in fact >> telecom switches and the computers that controlled them, and as far as >> I can see these were built/bought/deployed entirely with good >> economic justification (reduced maintenance/ease of reprovisioning) >> rather than just industry buzzwords as >> justification. Maybe I'm looking at that era with rose-colored glasses >> :-). > > Oh, there was certainly some good hardware around. Actually, for > embedded type systems like telecomms, I believe that they haven't seen > anything like the kind of bloat that's around for desktop / server > systems. But the fact that ever-faster telecomms equipment was ever in > vented in the first place has a lot to do with the problem I think (and > not just in computing, but all aspects of society). Telecom (and other embedded markets) tend to run off a different business model. Reliability is (was?) the driving force since you didn't want to have to replace your equipment (nor *service* it!) very often. I suspect telecom is moving away from this, now, and more towards the disposable mentality since It Ain't Your Plain Telephone Anymore (i.e. they EXPECT consumers to drive the technology so current investments are not LONG TERM investments). > As soon as it's possible to ask a question of someone halfway around the > world and demand an answer in the same day, or reach them whilst they're > visiting the bathroom, there's bound to be trouble! sheepish grin as I recall that when I installed the PBX I wired *both* bathrooms -- for phone, CAT5 *and* CATV! :> From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Aug 13 13:07:30 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:07:30 -0600 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <44DF67BD.2000502@dakotacom.net> References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44DF4AA4.9040703@yahoo.co.uk> <20060813150747.271A0BA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44DF5A31.9090205@yahoo.co.uk> <44DF67BD.2000502@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44DF6A62.6010604@jetnet.ab.ca> Don wrote: > sheepish grin as I recall that when I installed the PBX I > wired *both* bathrooms -- for phone, CAT5 *and* CATV! :> > I still like *books* better for the throne. Note the real heat problem for new machines is the Cache memory -- the CPU still runs faster. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 13:08:11 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:08:11 -0700 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060813003905.02cf67d0@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> <7.0.1.0.0.20060813003905.02cf67d0@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <44DF6A8B.9030903@dakotacom.net> Rob O'Donnell wrote: > At 23:48 12/08/2006, Don wrote: > >> Does anyone make a *truly* universal KVM (i.e. so that >> I can mix and match all of these flavors)? And, how >> outrageously priced is it? > > Lindy do one that on the face of it gets somewhere closer than most to > what you want: > http://www.lindy.com/uk/productfolder/03/32/32251/index.php > It's not particularly clear what the connections are, but there is a > manual to download, and their technical support is usually pretty good > if that doesn't help. It still appears PC-centric -- with minor allowances for Sun (e.g., no ADB support, relies on 13W3 adapters, expects your shared monitor to be HD15, no serial mice, etc.) :-( > Price is indeed outrageous (?375 retail, ~$700, plus cables ..) but if > you can find someone with a trade account it will be somewhat less.. Ouch! And, no doubt those "proprietary" cables aren't cheap! :< Thanks! --don From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 13:10:57 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:10:57 -0700 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <44DE715F.9050701@mdrconsult.com> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> <44DE715F.9050701@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <44DF6B31.5030807@dakotacom.net> Doc Shipley wrote: > Don wrote: >> Hi, >> >> In an attempt to cut down on the number of monitors, etc. >> here, I dragged out an old KVM (which, unfortunately, seems >> to have lost track of his wal wart!). >> >> It doesn't take long to realize that this is a non-solution: >> - keyboards are PS2, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. >> - mice are PS2, Serial, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. >> - video is Sun's 13W3, HD15, DEC's RGB, apple's DB15, etc. >> >> Does anyone make a *truly* universal KVM (i.e. so that >> I can mix and match all of these flavors)? And, how >> outrageously priced is it? > > Cybex Commander series is as close as you'll get. The ones I've > worked with are a backplane with cards that attach to computers or This sounds like the approach I would take if *designing* one. I.e., have the chassis deal with audio/video/mouse/etc. "busses" which cards could drive and *a* card could *tap* (to connect to your shared workstation I/O's). > console or other KVM units. The computer-conected cards are jumperable > to the type of kbd/mouse/display that system expects, and they make > cables for SPARC (with 13W3 display), ADB/DB15, PS/2-HD15, > AT/serial/HD15, etc. I've not seen USB cables, but that doesn't mean > they don't exist. As an added bonus, they do sound if you buy the right > cables, and allow up to 4 user consoles per setup. > > The newer ones are a lot smaller, support USB, and don't have the > mix-&-match backplane. > > Fairly expensive, but common on eBay and the cables come up reasonably > cheap. I will take a look. Thanks! From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Aug 13 13:19:05 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 13:19:05 -0500 Subject: new acquisitions References: <00a701c6bd9f$14e59dc0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP><44DE0616.6070702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <001001c6bf04$fcb829e0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written... >> Wow...That's one of the very few Handbooks that I don't have. That's >> an excellent score. > > Hmm... I'm not sure if I have one of those or not - what machines does > it cover? What's the year of publication? Microcomputer Processor Handbook, Copyright 1980 It covers LSI-11 stuff, 11/23, ba11-n, 11/03-S, 1103-L, ba11-m, 11v03-l, 11t03-l, lsi-11/2, proms, memory systems, etc. It is in bad shape though. Binding split in half, some pages are frayed around the edges, but it's all present and readable. I'm not positive, but I think I saw one of these on ebay a couple weeks ago. Jay From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Aug 13 13:20:03 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:20:03 -0700 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <44DEC55A.20108@dakotacom.net> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> <44DE5C9C.4010108@msm.umr.edu> <44DEC55A.20108@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44DF6D52.7030901@msm.umr.edu> Don wrote: > jim stephens wrote: > >> Don wrote: >> > > Hmmm... my U10 has VGVA and a 13W3. I assume one > overrides the other? > The 10 and optionally the 5 comes with a 3D Creator card. I pulled the one I have and use the ATI vga connector, which is just fine with anything I need to do on the sun. >> way till the blades. U2 etc, are 13w3 however but >> are not as nice as the U5 because they require scsi >> drives. > > > Nothing wrong with SCSI... :> other than price and capacity, availability. I wish SCSI would stay around, but I think it is headed out in favor of SATA, as will eventually PATA >> meece that are USB can go to PS2. > > - mice are PS2, Serial, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. > It seems like lots of converters involved. :-( > Presumably the USB based stuff can be self-powered. > Otherwise, lots and lots and lots of wall warts?? > there is a molded gizmo that seems to adapt the USB >> The Dec Vax type video and keyboards, as well >> as the funny HP's ones are pretty much in the >> "hide the keyboard and mouse" class. >> >> AIX boxes that I am keeping must have vga >> adapters, and ps2, though they are not w/o problems. > > > Sheesh! This sounds like a real mess! :-( > > I assume the reason off-the-shelf devices that handle all of > this "nicely" don't exist because most installations are > homogenous? > really new stuff usually have integrated system complex solutions that data centers use, and they frequently use common VGA / PS2 KB/Mouse solutions. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Aug 13 12:41:50 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:41:50 +0100 Subject: Asynch designs (OT) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 13 Aug 2006 17:47:47 -0000." <44DF65C3.8030305@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200608131741.SAA01888@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jules Richardson said: > Given that the licence is only for the BBC channels, and I'll perhaps watch > 2-3 hours of them per week, it works out as quite an expense per programme! Not quite - the licence is for having _any_ equipment installed in your home capable of receiving broadcast tv - _any_ broadcast tv. The money goes (mostly) to the bbc, but a licence is required for any broadcast tv equipment including, but not limited to, a tv set, video or dvd recorder with a tuner or a computer with a tuner. You still have to pay even if you never watch the bbc :-( -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 13:26:21 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:26:21 -0700 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <200608130841060246.52D8AB11@192.168.42.129> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> <200608130841060246.52D8AB11@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <44DF6ECD.10501@dakotacom.net> Bruce Lane wrote: > Hi, Don, Greetings and Hallucinations! [they still haven't made their way onto floppies -- but they have now migrated onto the machine that will do that! ;-) ] >> It doesn't take long to realize that this is a non-solution: >> - keyboards are PS2, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. >> - mice are PS2, Serial, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. >> - video is Sun's 13W3, HD15, DEC's RGB, apple's DB15, etc. >> >> Does anyone make a *truly* universal KVM (i.e. so that >> I can mix and match all of these flavors)? And, how >> outrageously priced is it? > > Yes indeed. I've seen a couple of them at RE-PC in Tukwila > (Washington). They were made by Cybex, and bear the name > 'Commander.' OK, Doc (?) mentioned these... > They consist of a mainframe which is configured for different > system types through the use of different plug-in modules. > The cables are interesting in that they're all high-density You say "interesting" I say "expensive" :> > D-sub shell (D-25 sized, but about 70 or so pins) at the switch > end, and the other end fanned out into KV and M plugs > appropriate for the system you were working with. So, there is nothing *active* in the cables? E.g., the "mainframe" has all of the "adapters" inside (on the appropriate cards). Does this pose problems if you plug the wrong cable into a card (i.e. if cable D shell pins X & Y expect to be tied to a USB mouse and suddenly find EIA232 signal levels on those pins)? > The mainframe itself accepted a standard PC keyboard and > mouse (PS/2 style), and electronically adapted it to drive > whatever was plugged into the switch. So I can't (readily) use a Sun keyboard -- unless I add an external adapter...? > That's in the surplus arena. It is also my understanding > that Raritan, Avocent (formerly Apex) and others make > current-production universal switches. However, most of > them seem to have price tags in the low four-figure range. Amusing to think someone will spend $125+/node just to live WITHOUT a keyboard! :-( Thanks! --don > > Happy hunting. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 13:28:16 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:28:16 -0700 Subject: KVMs In-Reply-To: <894b130e725b46248e5bf81a89103d9c@valleyimplants.com> References: <894b130e725b46248e5bf81a89103d9c@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <44DF6F40.2090606@dakotacom.net> Scott Quinn wrote: > And lo, Don spake thusly > >> Hmmm... my U10 has VGVA and a 13W3. I assume one >> overrides the other? > > They are two seperate framebuffers, and can be used for dual-heading. > The 13w3 is either a Creator/ffb or an Elite3d, and will be much more satisfactory > than the PGX (ATi) onboard. Is it possible to add a second Crestor/Elite FB? (Sorry, I haven't poked around inside this box, yet) From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 13:31:59 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:31:59 -0700 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <44DF6A62.6010604@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44DF4AA4.9040703@yahoo.co.uk> <20060813150747.271A0BA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44DF5A31.9090205@yahoo.co.uk> <44DF67BD.2000502@dakotacom.net> <44DF6A62.6010604@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44DF701F.3080301@dakotacom.net> woodelf wrote: > Don wrote: > >> sheepish grin as I recall that when I installed the PBX I >> wired *both* bathrooms -- for phone, CAT5 *and* CATV! :> >> > I still like *books* better for the throne. When I ran the wires, I figured easier to be *consistent* than to want the wires *later*! :> I also added a second set of telco wires in each and provisions for a pullchain activated switch (THINK: "Help, I've fallen and I can't get up" commercial) > Note the real heat problem for new machines > is the Cache memory -- the CPU still runs faster. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 13:35:43 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:35:43 -0700 Subject: Asynch designs (OT) In-Reply-To: <200608131741.SAA01888@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200608131741.SAA01888@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <44DF70FF.2030401@dakotacom.net> Stan Barr wrote: > Hi, > > Jules Richardson said: > >> Given that the licence is only for the BBC channels, and I'll perhaps watch >> 2-3 hours of them per week, it works out as quite an expense per programme! > > Not quite - the licence is for having _any_ equipment installed in your > home capable of receiving broadcast tv - _any_ broadcast tv. The money > goes (mostly) to the bbc, but a licence is required for any broadcast > tv equipment including, but not limited to, a tv set, video or dvd > recorder with a tuner or a computer with a tuner. You still have to > pay even if you never watch the bbc :-( So, the *tuner* is the gotcha? I.e. if you used a component DVD player/recorder, a video *monitor*, etc. *they* would be exempt? If so, has this "fact" influenced the types of products offered there? (e.g., tunerless products?) From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Aug 13 10:27:06 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 08:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ID these boards? In-Reply-To: <44DEDF55.6020404@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200608111337.56224.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608111428140589.25597296@10.0.0.252> <200608121349.58757.rtellason@verizon.net> <44DEDF55.6020404@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On 8/13/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> On Friday 11 August 2006 11:18 pm, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> > Got any pictures? I'm curious to see what it looks like. >>> >>> Nope, but I do have the boards laying here. Gotta get a digital camera >>> one >>> of these days... >> >> Got a flatbed scanner? They make nice pictures of boards. > > Not necessarily. Of the three that I've tried, none of them had sufficient > field depth to do a decent job. They'd handle the underside of the board well > enough, but couldn't cope with the topside being raised off the scanner bed a > quarter inch or so by the components. > > cheers > > J. > If you have one to spare, you might adjust the focus to be about 1/4" above the glass... Peter Wallace From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 13 13:43:48 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 14:43:48 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608130931430291.2E96AB93@10.0.0.252> References: <200608131302.k7DD22Nm090654@keith.ezwind.net> <200608131143.23606.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608130931430291.2E96AB93@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608131443.48932.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 13 August 2006 12:31 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I think the big problem was a shift in thought. Anyone who learned to > solder back in the handwired days remembers being told over and over again > that "Solder does not make a mechanical connection". Or in other words, > good wiring practice demanded that a wire be mechanically attached to its > terminal before solder was applied. Along come PCBs and what's holding > everything together? Solder. In fact, solder makes a great mechanical > connection--just ask any trumpet player why his instrument doesn't fall to > pieces when he picks it up--and it's the selfsame 70/30 alloy that > electronics assembly uses. One wonders why so darn much of the stuff I try to salvage parts out of has all of the pins bent over, which makes it *so* much more of a PITA... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Aug 13 13:49:24 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 14:49:24 -0400 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200608131449.24817.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 13 August 2006 09:55, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Recent posts on the subject of "modern" logic families and PCB's > make me think of an obvious trend in computing over the past > several decades: > > Power density (and required cooling/heat dissipation) have grown > greatly. Sort-of. CMOS is approaching the power density level of water-cooled bipolar logic, but it's still not there yet... > A desktop PC of 20 years ago often had no fan, or if it had one > it was just to generally keep air moving through the case and not > to cool any specific heat producing sections. > > Of course modern desktop PC's (since at least the early/mid 90's) have > vastly greater heat production and cooling requirements, with CPU heat > sinks and fans being vital to reliability. Yes, there's now a lot more FLOPS available to the user/programmer. > At the same time, and a subject of increasing frustration for me, > the number of computers required to do a given task has gone up > exponentially. Tasks that used to (meaning 20 or 30 years ago) used > to require a single PDP-8 or PDP-11 class minicomputer now use dozens > to hundreds of PC-clone's to do the same functions. The heat production > (and power and cooling requirements) of all the resulting PC-clones is > hugely higher. While at work, we might use a cluster of a hundred or so Dell machines to replace what was done by a single PDP-11 or VAX 11/780 in the late 70s/early 80s, with the stuff we do, we goet a lot faster turnaround on jobs, and the jobs have increased in complexity (and usefulness) exponentially along with the CPU horsepower. In fact, there's people who are talking about (and a few acutally doing it now) using GPUs on video cards to do some amount of useful work. In some cases, we actually have the same Fortran code that was running on machines 20-30 years ago still being used on modern stuff (and modified along the way to deal with each successive new "supercomputing" technology). Of course, with more moving parts, all made in eastern Asia, the biggest challenge I have now is trying to keep the individual machines in a cluster running as close to 24x7 as possible... In fact, another difference between now and 20 years ago, is that we used to be a 8-5, M-F shop, with users only being able to use our systems for a subset of 24 hours per day. Now, we have to keep everything running 7x24, or users start complaining - and with some code that runs for as long as 30 days at a time (720 hour jobs) across a whole bunch of systems, even a single weekly (or monthly) fixed downtime period isn't acceptable to our users. > I personally see massive government/military contractor computer > projects turn into a race to buy the fastest/biggest/best/most computers > with little regard as to whether you need hundreds of blade servers > to run a single web site or mail server. It is also frustrating > to see Peoplesoft/Oracle/Microsoft sell thousands and thousands > of licenses at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars when the > same function used to be done by a single PDP-11 with a couple of > RK05's! I'm not sure that it's REALLY the same function as before. While some stuff (like Windows) seems to get more bloated for no good reason, there's lots of things that have good reason to be much more complex than what they were decades ago. Tax laws, for instance, aren't getting any simpler to deal with, which means more complex software... and having software that's more flexible increases its complexity. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Sun Aug 13 13:57:36 2006 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 20:57:36 +0200 Subject: HP 1000 double integer instructions info In-Reply-To: <200608111508.k7BF8ocF000962@mail.bcpl.net> References: <200608101559.k7AFxrE5008151@mail.bcpl.net> <200608111508.k7BF8ocF000962@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <44DF7620.5020700@ais.fraunhofer.de> J. David Bryan schrieb: > On 11 Aug 2006 at 11:02, Holger Veit wrote: > > >> There is an opcode list in the appendix of the MACRO-1000 assembler >> manual. >> > > I hadn't thought to look there. Thanks! > > Appendix C, "HP 1000 Computer Instruction Set," lists the double integer > instructions for the E-Series as in the range 105320-105337, which are the > opcodes for the SIS firmware on the F-Series. Seems reasonable. > 105200-105237 are the FFP codes Note that some of these codes are overlayed by the Double integer instrs. Actually, on the F the DBI instrs are scattered over multiple locations; for date code >1920, the F seems to have these instrs built in - apparently for some sort of forward compatibility to the upcoming A-series systems: 105014 .DAD 105034 .DSB 105054 .DMP 105074 .DDI 105114 .DSBR 105134 .DDIR 105203 .DNG 105204 .DCO 105210 .DIN 105211 .DDE 105212 .DIS 105213 .DDS 105214 .NGL > However, the first page of that appendix states, "Special or custom > firmware (for example, double integer and third-party firmware) is not > included in table C-1." So I'm unsure of the origin of those opcodes. > C-1 lists the mnemonics; this is infact incomplete. C-2, in constrast contains much more opcodes, several of which I haven't yet identified completely. You find: - the mentioned DBI instrs, - FPP, - FFP, - RTE-IV/B EMA, - RTE-6/VM VMA, - DS/1000, - SIS, - RTE/6 OS, - VIS, - DMS - and all the standard instrs + EIG. > The reference to the "specials" product 93585A came in a "Real-Time > Interface" (an Interex publication) article from January 1994, written by > Esther Heller and Don Pottenger of HP DSD. The date of the MACRO/1000 > manual is December 1992. So I guess that the manual is giving the opcodes > of the 93585A microcode, even though it states that it isn't. > Looks as if. You might also look at the 5950-3767 M-E-F CE handbook (bitsavers) on pp 11-22 ff. which also lists the SIGNAL/1000 opcodes. -- Holger From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Aug 13 13:53:59 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 14:53:59 -0400 Subject: KVMs In-Reply-To: <44DF6F40.2090606@dakotacom.net> References: <894b130e725b46248e5bf81a89103d9c@valleyimplants.com> <44DF6F40.2090606@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608131453.59087.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 13 August 2006 14:28, Don wrote: > Scott Quinn wrote: > > And lo, Don spake thusly > > > >> Hmmm... my U10 has VGVA and a 13W3. I assume one > >> overrides the other? > > > > They are two seperate framebuffers, and can be used for dual-heading. > > The 13w3 is either a Creator/ffb or an Elite3d, and will be much more > > satisfactory than the PGX (ATi) onboard. > > Is it possible to add a second Crestor/Elite FB? (Sorry, I haven't > poked around inside this box, yet) Nope. The U10 only has one UPA slot. Of course, you could get an additional PCI framebuffer to put in it. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Aug 13 14:01:47 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:01:47 -0400 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <44DF6D52.7030901@msm.umr.edu> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> <44DEC55A.20108@dakotacom.net> <44DF6D52.7030901@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200608131501.48001.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 13 August 2006 14:20, jim stephens wrote: > Don wrote: > > jim stephens wrote: > >> Don wrote: > > > > > Hmmm... my U10 has VGVA and a 13W3. I assume one > > overrides the other? > > The 10 and optionally the 5 comes with a 3D Creator card. > I pulled the one I have and use the ATI vga connector, which > is just fine with anything I need to do on the sun. If you mean that the Ultra5 can have a UPA-connected framebuffer, that's wrong. There's a slot on the board, but there's no way to fit a card in there, and the power supply for the Ultra 5 doesn't have the extra connector which connects to the motherboard and powers the UPA slot. Yes, I've tried doing this before. :) > >> way till the blades. U2 etc, are 13w3 however but > >> are not as nice as the U5 because they require scsi > >> drives. > > > > Nothing wrong with SCSI... :> > > other than price and capacity, availability. I wish > SCSI would stay around, but I think it is headed > out in favor of SATA, as will eventually PATA SCSI may eventually get phased out in favor of Fiberchannel, but it's not anywhere near "not available on the marketplace" yet. Larger than 36GB or so capacity drives are still expensive, though. > really new stuff usually have integrated system complex > solutions that data centers use, and they frequently use > common VGA / PS2 KB/Mouse solutions. Or a DE9 connector for a RS-232 serial port, or 100BaseTX port to connect to a Lights-Out management controller (or service processor, or whatever you wanna call it), which can act as the system's console, as well. Older stuff with framebuffers generally were meant to be workstations, not servers, anyways, for the most part. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 14:42:58 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 12:42:58 -0700 Subject: NeXT users: Trillium speech products? Message-ID: <44DF80C2.1010200@dakotacom.net> Hi, Has anyone played with/auditioned Trillium's speech product(s)? They had an articulatory synthesizer that ran on cubes (?). I would be very interested in hearing about the quality of the speech produced, as well as any comments on where the product fell short. Thanks! --don From ray at arachelian.com Sun Aug 13 15:02:04 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 16:02:04 -0400 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: References: <44DE091A.1030401@neurotica.com> <44DE0CB2.2080106@dakotacom.net> <44DE3284.3060700@neurotica.com> <44DE34EB.7070101@dakotacom.net> <44DEDD12.4030001@yahoo.co.uk> <44DED689.9010307@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44DF853C.5050606@arachelian.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Aug 13, 2006, at 3:36 AM, Don wrote: >> If an FPGA is fair game, then why not just use an >> emulation? > > This is a very good point, and (personally) I don't have an answer > for it, so I think it just boils down to personal preference. I am > bored to tears with emulators...but an FPGA implementation of a > classic machine is something that I find very drool-worthy. > > I think it's a matter of the feeling of "fakeness". The FPGA > implementation is REAL HARDWARE...Real logic gates implementing an > architecture, instead of emulation...which is SIMulation. Except that each one of the logic operations emulated are executed on a real ALU, using similar devices. For example, when you run an AND opcode through an emulator, at some point, the real CPU running the emulator does run it through a set of AND gates. When you do an ADD, or SUB that ADD or SUB goes through an ALU running a similar instruction. When you do a read or store from memory, that read or write goes on a memory bus, and so on. So it's not quite simulation. It also runs on real hardware. Granted, the instructions for how to do the emulation are in software, but they run on real hardware. You could look at this as being "interpreted" on a real computer, and "compiled" on an FPGA. Sort of. :-) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 13 15:43:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 13:43:32 -0700 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <44DF853C.5050606@arachelian.com> References: <44DE091A.1030401@neurotica.com> <44DE0CB2.2080106@dakotacom.net> <44DE3284.3060700@neurotica.com> <44DE34EB.7070101@dakotacom.net> <44DEDD12.4030001@yahoo.co.uk> <44DED689.9010307@dakotacom.net> <44DF853C.5050606@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200608131343320226.2F7D36DA@10.0.0.252> On 8/13/2006 at 4:02 PM Ray Arachelian wrote: >So it's not quite simulation. It also runs on real hardware. Granted, >the instructions for how to do the emulation are in software, but they >run on real hardware. You could look at this as being "interpreted" on >a real computer, and "compiled" on an FPGA. Yes, but to my mind, absent the periperals, the difference is scant enough not to matter. Emulation has been with us almost as long as computers. IIRC, the IBM 705 had an emulation program for the 650. S/360 could emulate a number of older mainframes. I've often wondered if anyone "nested' emulations on their S/360. But it's all still digital electronics--electrons and holes and bits. Mostly the packaging has changed. And if the packaging's REALLY the thing, then we should be content with mock-ups with PeeCees behind the fa?ade running the blinkenlights and sampling the switches to complete the effect. Where I find older equipment to be useful is running older peripherals. All the rest is nostalgia. Since my salad days were spent with the really big iron, I'm not likely to recreate them anytime soon. Those who spent their good times with minicomputers have more of a shot at encapsulating their happy times in amber. Cheers, Chck From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 16:10:31 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 14:10:31 -0700 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <44DF853C.5050606@arachelian.com> References: <44DE091A.1030401@neurotica.com> <44DE0CB2.2080106@dakotacom.net> <44DE3284.3060700@neurotica.com> <44DE34EB.7070101@dakotacom.net> <44DEDD12.4030001@yahoo.co.uk> <44DED689.9010307@dakotacom.net> <44DF853C.5050606@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44DF9547.1070006@dakotacom.net> Ray Arachelian wrote: > > > Except that each one of the logic operations emulated are executed on a > real ALU, using similar devices. > > For example, when you run an AND opcode through an emulator, at some > point, the real CPU running the emulator does run it through a set of > AND gates. > > When you do an ADD, or SUB that ADD or SUB goes through an ALU running a > similar instruction. Using ADD or SUB gates, as appropriate... > You could look at this as being "interpreted" on > a real computer, and "compiled" on an FPGA. > > Sort of. :-) Actually, not a bad analogy! From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Aug 13 16:10:13 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 14:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org><44DD5846.40704@dakotacom.net> <44DD6076.7030507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, vrs wrote: > From: "woodelf" >> Don wrote: >>> Solder paste and hot air are infinitely easier. >>> >> But can you do POPCORN too. :) >> Still I would like to see in surface mount --- >> tiny Flip/Clips and see how small you can build >> a PDP-{Favorate number}. > > One thing that I think *would* be awesome in surface mount, > would be to do a "scale model" based on the straight-8, with > all those little SMT diodes and transistors, and no logic > IC's at all (except possibly some SMT RAM to replace the core > planes) :-). > > Vince > > (It might also be cool to make some of the diodes the glowing kind.) > That has been discussed before. It would be fun to do something like the PDP8-S on a single PCB with only resistors, capacitors, SOT-23 transistors and dual diodes (And yes LEDs in all the FF outputs would be nice). Peter Wallace From newyork.techie at gmail.com Sun Aug 13 16:52:20 2006 From: newyork.techie at gmail.com (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 17:52:20 -0400 Subject: Questions on convergence... Message-ID: <3e34a0420608131452v1ccb88aexed18c95110ec08d0@mail.gmail.com> well ok then, if that is the case, does anyone know of anyone who may have the manual for the specific model I had mentioned? Hitachi CM2111MJ 512? John Boffemmyer IV From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 13 17:07:46 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:07:46 -0400 Subject: SMT hobby projects (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <200608130936150983.2E9AD4C7@10.0.0.252> References: <200608122050.k7CKoJb9070854@keith.ezwind.net> <6236695120e992e234e8d3da7b94eb64@neurotica.com> <200608130936150983.2E9AD4C7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Aug 13, 2006, at 12:36 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > All of the online information that I've seen about solder paste > indicates > that distributors will ship the stuff only on an overnight basis in > insulated containers. Apparently it degrades slowly at room > temperatures > and above. Is this not true? This is true...It dries out, as well as deteriorates chemically. The containers are marked with expiration dates. I keep mine sealed in zip-loc bags in the bottom drawer of the refrigerator, which is not used for food...only solder paste, batteries, and film for the SEM camera. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 13 17:15:01 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:15:01 -0400 Subject: new acquisitions In-Reply-To: <001001c6bf04$fcb829e0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00a701c6bd9f$14e59dc0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP><44DE0616.6070702@neurotica.com> <001001c6bf04$fcb829e0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <07072d31ef9cb9f1549f75790467125e@neurotica.com> On Aug 13, 2006, at 2:19 PM, Jay West wrote: >>> Wow...That's one of the very few Handbooks that I don't have. >>> That's >>> an excellent score. >> >> Hmm... I'm not sure if I have one of those or not - what machines does >> it cover? What's the year of publication? > > Microcomputer Processor Handbook, Copyright 1980 > > It covers LSI-11 stuff, 11/23, ba11-n, 11/03-S, 1103-L, ba11-m, > 11v03-l, 11t03-l, lsi-11/2, proms, memory systems, etc. Urrrrrr? Wait a minute, that's not the one I thought it was. I thought you were talking about the (rumored) handbook that covers the processor chipsets, as in the F-11 and J-11. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 17:18:44 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:18:44 -0700 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <44DF6D52.7030901@msm.umr.edu> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> <44DE5C9C.4010108@msm.umr.edu> <44DEC55A.20108@dakotacom.net> <44DF6D52.7030901@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <44DFA544.4080808@dakotacom.net> jim stephens wrote: > Don wrote: >>> way till the blades. U2 etc, are 13w3 however but >>> are not as nice as the U5 because they require scsi >>> drives. >> >> Nothing wrong with SCSI... :> > > other than price and capacity, availability. I wish Capacity seems to be the bigger problem. And, price per gigabyte *at* those higher capacities! > SCSI would stay around, but I think it is headed > out in favor of SATA, as will eventually PATA Agreed. >>> meece that are USB can go to PS2. >> >> - mice are PS2, Serial, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. >> It seems like lots of converters involved. :-( >> Presumably the USB based stuff can be self-powered. >> Otherwise, lots and lots and lots of wall warts?? > > there is a molded gizmo that seems to adapt the USB I've had mixed experiences with those. Perhaps the ones I have used were not intended as "generic" and had vendor specific hacks in their implementations? >> I assume the reason off-the-shelf devices that handle all of >> this "nicely" don't exist because most installations are >> homogenous? > > really new stuff usually have integrated system complex > solutions that data centers use, and they frequently use > common VGA / PS2 KB/Mouse solutions. The "killer app" is a video digitizer with a network spigot on the back end. Plug video, audio, mouse, keyboard into the box and address it over the wire! Reasonably trivial to do *except* for full motion video support :-( From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Aug 13 17:34:42 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 17:34:42 -0500 Subject: KVMs Message-ID: Don intones: > >Is it possible to add a second Crestor/Elite FB? (Sorry, I haven't >poked around inside this box, yet) Nope, UltraSPARC IIi doesn't support enough spare UPA ports. You can get a PCI PGX card if you so desire. Some of the bigger systems that use the full UltraSPARC II or UltraSPARC III with the external UPA/Crossbar controller offered more graphics ports. I think the 60 and 80 did, as well as the deskside beasts (and I suppose you could wedge a few screens into an Ultra Enterprise 10k if you wanted...) Even with the full UltraSPARC implementation, many smaller machines (e.g. Ultra 2) only had one UPA expansion slot for size reasons (and, I suppose, to protect the profit margins of the high-end systems). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 13 16:41:33 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 22:41:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <200608122336.k7CNa6vt073954@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Aug 12, 6 06:36:06 pm Message-ID: > What does ADB stand for? The reason I ask Apple Desktop Bus. It's the keyboard and mouse interface on most Macs after the Mac Plus (?), using a 4 pin mini-DIN connecotr. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 13 16:52:33 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 22:52:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Questions on convergence... In-Reply-To: <3e34a0420608121700p5f0a8213kc9cb0f105548ff9a@mail.gmail.com> from "John Boffemmyer IV" at Aug 12, 6 08:00:49 pm Message-ID: > > I have an old (over 11yrs old) Hitachi 21" > CRT model CM2111MU (sub model 512), also known as a SuperScan Mc21HR RasterOps, > that seems to have a little overlap/failure to line-up on the colors (also > known as a convergence issue as I've been told). I can't seem to find anyone > in the area who still works on these damned things. Anyone have any pointers > to fixing convergence issues or know of anyone in the Hudson Valley area > (NY) that could fix this big bastard? Any assistance would be greatly > appeciated. In gnneral there are 2 types of convergece adjustments : Static convergence, which affects the whole screen (and which you tweak to get the 3 colours lined up in the middle of the screen) and dynamic convergence, which affects the edges and corners only. IIRC, these terms come from the old delta-gun CRTs (the 3 electron guns are at the corners of an equilateral triangle, like a capital delta). On those tubes, static convergence was done with permanent magents (hence steady, or staitc fields), while dynamic convergence was done by passing carefully controlled currnts through coils around the CRT neck (hence changing, or dynamic fields). Your CRT is later than that, and has the 3 guns in a straight horizontal line. With those, static convergernce is normally done by sets of ring magnets on the back of the yoke, dynamic convergence by tilting the yoke slightly (and wedging it with rubber blocks). On some high-end monitors there are still dyanamic convergence circuits feeding assorted coils, though. Personally, I'd not want to try to do the convergence on a monitor without the service manual. If you're mot that easily put off, try displaying a cross-hatch pattern (a little matter of programming on a computer moniotor), then mark the ring magnets on the back of the yoke so you can get them back to the original position if you make things a lot worse, then try fiddling with them. You will quickly get frustrated when you find the beams do not go where you expect. When you've got the centre correct, you can try tilting the yoke to sort out the edges and corners. The main problem is that you ahve to do this with the monitor on, and there can be high-ish voltages (hundreds of volts) on the yoke windings and connections. Take great care, have somebody nearby who knows how to turn off the power, and so on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 13 16:57:16 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 22:57:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Asynch designs In-Reply-To: <200608122040.36930.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Aug 12, 6 08:40:36 pm Message-ID: > > On Saturday 12 August 2006 07:49 pm, Don wrote: > > IIRC, in the UK they have mobile units that wander around trying > > to see how many televisions each home has (?) > > I remember reading about that some time ago (decades?), and wondering since > then how much that whole thing had gotten messed up since computer monitors > had come into the picture. Nott quite. Since a TV license covers you for as many sets as you want (you don't need a license per set), all they are looking for is the fact that there is at least one TV receiving broadcast signals in that house. Last time I heard about how it was done, they looked for the local oscillator radiation. Therefore computer monitors wouldn't affect it, now, in theory, would a TV set tuned to channel 36 (the conventional output of UHF modulators over here at that time). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 13 17:05:27 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:05:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Questions on convergence... In-Reply-To: <200608122049.50247.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Aug 12, 6 08:49:50 pm Message-ID: > I've done that sort of thing, on TVs, and what you describe there ain't old. > TVs that were still using all vacuum tubes when I worked on them back in the > days I had my shop -- now they were OLD! Convergence used to be a real PITA, > because you had static convergence that was done by moving magnets on the > neck of the CRT (not to be confused with the purity magnets!) and then you > had dynamic convergence, which was typically 12-16 separate adjustments, all > of which interacted to some extent. Actually, having grown up with delta-gun CRTs, I find them much easier to set up than the in-line type. Tweaking presets is a lot easier than tilting the yoke and hoping.... [...] > I used to try and fix monitors. The last time I had one that I wanted working > I ended up tracking down some guy in the area who would work on them, taking > him 3 or 4 of the monitors that I had around, and telling him that he could > keep them if I got the one fixed that I wanted. As it turns out he didn't > fix it right, and I've not felt like being bothered to go back there and > hassle it since then. I did open that one up, but there was no way I was > going to attempt that repair. Why not? Admittedly modern monitors are horrible to work on, with one PCB that's totally inaccessible.... > > The other thing is, to do a proper convergence needs a signal that's going to > give you a stable pattern, although I suspect that's easier to do with a > computer driving it than not, I had to buy a little generator for TVs back Indeed. With a computer, it's trivial to generate a cross-hatch pattern (the main one needed for convergence). For TVs, you either buy/build a cross-hatch generator (I remember building one from a kit about 15 years ago, it was only a handful of ICs, one of which was a TV sync generator chain). Or you use a home computer, suitably programmed. There were programs for the BBC micro, C64, etc, published in the magazines. > Monitors are apparently moving into the "not worth fixing" category any more. To be fair, very little of the stuff we talk about in this list is 'worth fixing'. Why spend hours/weeks restoring a PDP11 when a PC has a lot more CPU power? Well, we all know the answer to that... I feel that the original monitor (and disk drives [1], keyboard, etc) are as much a part of the machine, particularly (in the case of the monitor) on a workstation, as the CPU. Therefore, I'd want to repair the monitor if at all possible (even if, say, I have to re-wind a transformer to do so,,) Now no-name SVGA monitors are another matter. I do _NOT_ want any of thsoe, I don't repair them, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 13 17:19:44 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:19:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: EX2000 Floppy Drive Tester In-Reply-To: <200608130950.k7D9odB1029947@monisys.caonisys.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Aug 13, 6 05:47:21 am Message-ID: > > > > What exactly does the "drive excerciser" do which comes in handy? -- I've > > > got some diagnostics and drive test tools built into ImageDisk which I find > > > very useful, and I'd be happy to add any other such functions that folks > > > need (provided of course that it can be done with the PC hardware). > > > > It's been ages since I used it, probably last in about the 1990-2 timeframe, > > but the main thing is to be able to read out the drive's speed in RPM (I > > guess they use the index pulse for that?) and to be able to step the drive to > > specific tracks, which is where the alignment disk comes in to the picture. > > ImageDisk can do all of this and more ... You can't read the index pulse directly > on the PC controller, however I can time the occurance of a particular sector > ID passing under the head which gives me the ability to test the speed. Ah, but that assumes that : The read chain is working The heads are well-enough aligned to read a given track The spindle speed is close enough for the data separator PLL to lock to the signal from the read chain If you're working on a defective drive, you can't assume any of those. The whole point of a drive exerciser (and I use one a lot) is that you can test each part of the drive separately. You can turn on the motor, look at the index signal. If it's missing, you look to see if the disk is rotating, and troubleshoot the motor or index circuits as appropriate. if the index pulse is there, you can set the spindle speed my measuring the frequency of said index pulse (although there's often a stroboscope disk on the spinde that you look at under a mains-powered flourescent lamp, and tweak the speed control preset so that the pattern appears to stand still (at least one manual I have gives a tolerance in terms of blocks passing a fixed point per minute). > > You can also step the drive to any track, analyze tracks, read tracks, format > tracks, write tracks and see the results of a continuous read-id loop all under > full manual control, and with a real-time display of the Fault, Ready, Double- > sided, Write-protect and Track-0 indications from the drive as well as the > sector-IDs passing under the head. You are assuming the disk is readable by a PC controller. Which may well not be the case. > I was just curious if there were any other functions built into the specialized > drive tester that I have not yet covered... Never owned/used such a piece of > equipment myself... One other advantage of the drive exerciser I use is that it's about the size of a multimter. Trying to set up a PC system and cable it to a drive I am repairing would be almost impossible. But the exerciser will fit onto my workbench surrounded by bits of classic computer. -tony From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Aug 13 17:40:14 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 17:40:14 -0500 Subject: KVMs Message-ID: Don said > Amusing to think someone will spend $125+/node >just to live WITHOUT a keyboard! :-( Somewhat disappointing, too. The way you run servers without keyboards is using a serial terminal plugged into a multiplexer. Clean, and substantially less pricy. No Wizards or other excuses, though - you have to know your stuff for that. From jdbryan at acm.org Sun Aug 13 17:51:49 2006 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:51:49 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 double integer instructions info In-Reply-To: <000501c6bef9$b51b7ed0$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <200608111444.k7BEimf2029796@mail.bcpl.net>, <000501c6bef9$b51b7ed0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <200608132251.k7DMpuaG001912@mail.bcpl.net> On 13 Aug 2006 at 12:58, Bob Shannon wrote: > RTE IV/B firmware is more commonly found in my experience. > > RTE 6VM firmware is not ~rare~, but it is a little uncommon. Interesting, thanks. I had thought that virtually everyone would have upgraded from IVB to 6/VM at the time. Sounds as though more shops stuck with IVB than I had imagined. -- Dave From jdbryan at acm.org Sun Aug 13 17:51:52 2006 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:51:52 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 double integer instructions info In-Reply-To: <44DF7620.5020700@ais.fraunhofer.de> References: <200608101559.k7AFxrE5008151@mail.bcpl.net>, <200608111508.k7BF8ocF000962@mail.bcpl.net>, <44DF7620.5020700@ais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <200608132251.k7DMpuaI001912@mail.bcpl.net> On 13 Aug 2006 at 20:57, Holger Veit wrote: > Note that some of these codes are overlayed by the Double integer > instrs. Actually, on the F the DBI instrs are scattered over multiple > locations; Yes, part are in the FP area, the rest in the FFP area. I'd guess that's because the E-Series microcode for both became much smaller when it was adapted for the F-Series hardware floating point box. So HP reused those emptier areas (and ROMs), rather than allocate a new block from the "HP Reserved" microcode spaces. > C-2, in constrast contains much more opcodes, several of which I > haven't yet identified completely. Which ones? Note that the A-Series added a lot of new instructions for the new hardware, e.g., code and data separation (CDS) instructions. > You might also look at the 5950-3767 M-E-F CE handbook (bitsavers) on > pp 11-22 ff. which also lists the SIGNAL/1000 opcodes. Had already. :-) It has the F-Series opcodes for the double integer instructions, but not the E-Series ones. -- Dave From jcwren at jcwren.com Sun Aug 13 17:56:33 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:56:33 -0400 Subject: Pictures of old S-100 cards? Message-ID: <44DFAE21.5040907@jcwren.com> I've been putting some S-100 cards on eBay, and I started wondering if anyone was maintaining a database of pictures of old cards. If not, and someone chooses to start one up, anyone is welcome to my pictures. http://tinymicros.com/ebay is where they're located, starting somewhere on page 20 or 21. They're not great photographs, but they're more than adequate to help identify boards and such. --jc From jcwren at jcwren.com Sun Aug 13 18:02:31 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:02:31 -0400 Subject: Pictures of old S-100 cards? In-Reply-To: <44DFAE21.5040907@jcwren.com> References: <44DFAE21.5040907@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <44DFAF87.50202@jcwren.com> Sorry, that URL is http://tinymicros.com/gallery/ebay --jc J.C. Wren wrote: > I've been putting some S-100 cards on eBay, and I started wondering > if anyone was maintaining a database of pictures of old cards. If > not, and someone chooses to start one up, anyone is welcome to my > pictures. http://tinymicros.com/ebay is where they're located, > starting somewhere on page 20 or 21. They're not great photographs, > but they're more than adequate to help identify boards and such. > > --jc > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Aug 13 18:08:25 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:08:25 +1200 Subject: ID these boards? In-Reply-To: <44DEDF55.6020404@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200608111337.56224.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608111428140589.25597296@10.0.0.252> <200608121349.58757.rtellason@verizon.net> <44DEDF55.6020404@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 8/13/06, Jules Richardson wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 8/13/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> On Friday 11 August 2006 11:18 pm, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> > Got any pictures? > >> > >> Nope, but I do have the boards laying here. Gotta get a digital > >> camera one of these days... > > > > Got a flatbed scanner? They make nice pictures of boards. > > Not necessarily. Of the three that I've tried, none of them had sufficient > field depth to do a decent job. They'd handle the underside of the board well > enough, but couldn't cope with the topside being raised off the scanner bed a > quarter inch or so by the components. Hmm... I've never had a scanner that I've tried _not_ make a good scan. I've usually used whatever was handy, typically HP products. Here's a handy sample... http://penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/INS8073/ I don't recall the exact model I used, but it was a USB-interfaced HP scanner purchased sometime in the past 5 years. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 13 18:10:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 16:10:40 -0700 Subject: EX2000 Floppy Drive Tester In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608131610400114.3003E949@10.0.0.252> On 8/13/2006 at 11:19 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >The spindle speed is close enough for the data separator PLL to lock to >the signal from the read chain Funny thing about that--which goes to show you some wisdom about old software vs. new. While Windoze can barely figure out what kind of disk you have in the drive (and sometimes even if there's one in the drive), I powered up an old CP/M system here to read some old GCR disks. One of the first things that I did was to format a diskette. So, I typed in the command and gave it the usual "G" to go and format and was greeted with the message: FORMAT ABORTED--SPINDLE SPEED IS 7% SLOW. The cure was to get the drive testing program out and tweak the pot on the tach board, but it was a lesson in how, sometimes, the old software on those poor crippled machines is far from brain-dead. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 13 18:10:53 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:10:53 -0400 Subject: Questions on convergence... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608131910.53798.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 13 August 2006 06:05 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've done that sort of thing, on TVs, and what you describe there ain't > > old. TVs that were still using all vacuum tubes when I worked on them > > back in the days I had my shop -- now they were OLD! Convergence used to > > be a real PITA, because you had static convergence that was done by > > moving magnets on the neck of the CRT (not to be confused with the purity > > magnets!) and then you had dynamic convergence, which was typically > > 12-16 separate adjustments, all of which interacted to some extent. > > Actually, having grown up with delta-gun CRTs, I find them much easier to > set up than the in-line type. Tweaking presets is a lot easier than > tilting the yoke and hoping.... As in it's handled in software? I have not done any convergence adjustments since those days, the stuff I'm dealing with any more hardly seems to need it touched. Perhaps the only thing off in the original poster's monitor is those static adjustments, if it suffered some kind of a physical shock, which I would guess is at least worth looking at, seeing if something is obviously out of place. I didn't see any response to my point about whether this happened all of a sudden or gradually over time, though. > [...] > > > I used to try and fix monitors. The last time I had one that I wanted > > working I ended up tracking down some guy in the area who would work on > > them, taking him 3 or 4 of the monitors that I had around, and telling > > him that he could keep them if I got the one fixed that I wanted. As it > > turns out he didn't fix it right, and I've not felt like being bothered > > to go back there and hassle it since then. I did open that one up, but > > there was no way I was going to attempt that repair. > > Why not? Admittedly modern monitors are horrible to work on, with one PCB > that's totally inaccessible.... This one in particular was a NEC Multisync um, 3a I think? After pulling the back cover off you couldn't get at much of anything, except by taking it a whole lot further apart, which involved undoing both side panels but to swing them out meant that you had to disconnect a lot of stuff, so there was no way obvious to me to get in there and do test points and such to find out what was going on. When I got it back from the guy I hooked it up to a dos-based machine and got multiple images, as if the frequency it was trying to display wouldn't sync properly or it couldn't hit the right frequency at all or something. I remember looking at that time for what might be online for that monitor, which turned out not to be all that much. Anybody know if this has changed? > > The other thing is, to do a proper convergence needs a signal that's > > going to give you a stable pattern, although I suspect that's easier to > > do with a computer driving it than not, I had to buy a little generator > > for TVs back > > Indeed. With a computer, it's trivial to generate a cross-hatch pattern > (the main one needed for convergence). I always used to start with dots, myself, for the center convergence. > For TVs, you either buy/build a cross-hatch generator (I remember > building one from a kit about 15 years ago, it was only a handful of ICs, > one of which was a TV sync generator chain). Or you use a home computer, > suitably programmed. There were programs for the BBC micro, C64, etc, > published in the magazines. The one I bought back in 1974 (!) does include the dot, crosshatch, and color bar patterns as well as a blank raster, for purity adjustments, but only fixed sizes of them, not fewer or single ones, which I saw featured on some instruments. It uses unijunction transistors as frequency dividers, and has three trimpot adjustments on the back which needed to be tweaked often as it wasn't terribly stable. > > Monitors are apparently moving into the "not worth fixing" category any > > more. > > To be fair, very little of the stuff we talk about in this list is 'worth > fixing'. Why spend hours/weeks restoring a PDP11 when a PC has a lot more > CPU power? Well, we all know the answer to that... It depends on how much effort you want to put into something. With a pile of monitors around here and no specific need for _that_ one, I didn't pursue it. I did put it in storage, though, in a pile of monitors that's in there... > I feel that the original monitor (and disk drives [1], keyboard, etc) > are as much a part of the machine, particularly (in the case of the > monitor) on a workstation, as the CPU. Therefore, I'd want to repair the > monitor if at all possible (even if, say, I have to re-wind a transformer > to do so,,) Some units are no doubt easier to work on than others. > Now no-name SVGA monitors are another matter. I do _NOT_ want any of > thsoe, I don't repair them, etc. The ones here all seem to have names on them, Packard Bell, Emachines, Zenith Data Systems, MaxTech... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 13 18:12:36 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:12:36 -0400 Subject: KVMs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608131912.36924.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 13 August 2006 06:40 pm, Scott Quinn wrote: > Don said > > > Amusing to think someone will spend $125+/node > >just to live WITHOUT a keyboard! :-( > > Somewhat disappointing, too. The way you run servers without keyboards is > using a serial terminal plugged into a multiplexer. Clean, and > substantially less pricy. No Wizards or other excuses, though - you have to > know your stuff for that. Serial ports? Multiplexer? I just do it over the LAN, where they're all connected already anyhow... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Aug 13 18:37:37 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:37:37 -0400 Subject: KVM's References: Message-ID: <005501c6bf31$77554ee0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 5:41 PM Subject: Re: KVM's > > What does ADB stand for? The reason I ask > > Apple Desktop Bus. It's the keyboard and mouse interface on most Macs > after the Mac Plus (?), using a 4 pin mini-DIN connecotr. > > -tony Also used on the Apple IIgs From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Aug 13 18:46:41 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:46:41 -0400 Subject: KVMs References: Message-ID: <007801c6bf32$ba548890$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Quinn" To: Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 6:40 PM Subject: RE: KVMs > Don said > > > Amusing to think someone will spend $125+/node > >just to live WITHOUT a keyboard! :-( > > Somewhat disappointing, too. The way you run servers without keyboards is using a serial terminal plugged into a multiplexer. > Clean, and substantially less pricy. No Wizards or other excuses, though - you have to know your stuff for that. > > Do you people realy spend $1000 for a multi system KVM for home use? I have 5 KVM's in use here (1 Belkin SOHO 4 port PS2/USB/Audio, 2 x Belkin Omnivew 4 port PS/2 +Serial (one is a slave of the other for 8 ports), 1 Dr.Bott 4 port ADB, and 1 12 port Black Box ADB model). What would be nice is a KVM for my 2000 and 3000 Amigas. I purchased the Belkin SOHO new for $140 or so, the others were from ebay at $50 or less. They cover my collection of mac and x86 PC's (except for my Tandy 1000 HX that has its own monitor anyway) while I still have to use monitors for my Commodores, IIgs, and 1040st. I don't realy mind having monitors for the computer in a keyboard system but for Macs and PCs I prefer a KVM. TZ From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 18:49:59 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 16:49:59 -0700 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <005501c6bf31$77554ee0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <005501c6bf31$77554ee0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <44DFBAA7.1070103@dakotacom.net> Teo Zenios wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Duell" >>> What does ADB stand for? The reason I ask >> Apple Desktop Bus. It's the keyboard and mouse interface on most Macs >> after the Mac Plus (?), using a 4 pin mini-DIN connecotr. >> >> -tony > > Also used on the Apple IIgs Was the gs the 65816 box? From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 18:53:40 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 16:53:40 -0700 Subject: KVMs In-Reply-To: <200608131912.36924.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608131912.36924.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44DFBB84.1010702@dakotacom.net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Sunday 13 August 2006 06:40 pm, Scott Quinn wrote: >> Don said >> >>> Amusing to think someone will spend $125+/node >>> just to live WITHOUT a keyboard! :-( >> Somewhat disappointing, too. The way you run servers without keyboards is >> using a serial terminal plugged into a multiplexer. Clean, and Sure. But servers aren't workstations. :-( As I said, I suspect the reason "my" problem hasn't been solved adequately/economically/etc. is that the folks who buy KVM's and the like are running farms of largely homogenous systems (and only need a console when they need to figure out why a box doesn't want to boot, etc.) >> substantially less pricy. No Wizards or other excuses, though - you have to >> know your stuff for that. > > Serial ports? Multiplexer? I just do it over the LAN, where they're all > connected already anyhow... What do you do when one of your boxes fails to boot? :> (and, thus, the network stack isn't up and running). One port terminal servers can be helpful. As can newer boxes that have built in network ready management consoles... From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Aug 13 18:54:03 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:54:03 -0400 Subject: KVM's References: <005501c6bf31$77554ee0$0b01a8c0@game> <44DFBAA7.1070103@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <008301c6bf33$c1ec6450$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 7:49 PM Subject: Re: KVM's >> > Was the gs the 65816 box?] WDC 65C816 @ 1.0 or 2.8MHz http://oldcomputers.net/appleiigs.html From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 19:02:19 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 17:02:19 -0700 Subject: KVMs In-Reply-To: <007801c6bf32$ba548890$0b01a8c0@game> References: <007801c6bf32$ba548890$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <44DFBD8B.1070801@dakotacom.net> Teo Zenios wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Quinn" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 6:40 PM > Subject: RE: KVMs > > >> Don said >> >>> Amusing to think someone will spend $125+/node >>> just to live WITHOUT a keyboard! :-( >> Somewhat disappointing, too. The way you run servers without keyboards is > using a serial terminal plugged into a multiplexer. >> Clean, and substantially less pricy. No Wizards or other excuses, though - > you have to know your stuff for that. > > Do you people realy spend $1000 for a multi system KVM for home use? Of course not! That was the point -- $125/node (assuming an 8 port switch) is ridiculous "just to get rid of a keyboard". > I have 5 KVM's in use here (1 Belkin SOHO 4 port PS2/USB/Audio, 2 x Belkin > Omnivew 4 port PS/2 +Serial (one is a slave of the other for 8 ports), 1 I just repaired an Omniview Pro 8 to use in my office. (it was a freebie) But, it really only serves as a video switch -- and even then, it's a bit of a kludge. Can't run the ADB keyboard/mouse for the two Macs through it. Have to use HD15 adapters for the Mac video outs. The SGI VW320's USB keyboard mouse won't go through it (without USB->PS2 dongles). I'm *hoping* the IRIX's video *will* (via a suitable connector mangling). The Sun keyboard/mouse won't. But, thankfully, the U10's video (13W3) can go directly to the GDM500 and I can use the video switch on the monitor to select sources. I.e. I still have to keep a bunch of keyboards/mice piled on top of machines instead of just hitting a button on a KVM to share *one* of each (but, at least I don't have to keep 8 monitors on my desk! :>) > Dr.Bott 4 port ADB, and 1 12 port Black Box ADB model). What would be nice > is a KVM for my 2000 and 3000 Amigas. I purchased the Belkin SOHO new for > $140 or so, the others were from ebay at $50 or less. They cover my > collection of mac and x86 PC's (except for my Tandy 1000 HX that has its own > monitor anyway) while I still have to use monitors for my Commodores, IIgs, > and 1040st. I don't realy mind having monitors for the computer in a > keyboard system but for Macs and PCs I prefer a KVM. It *should* be simple to get a box to do all of the above. It's disappointing and annoying that it *isn't*! :-( From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Aug 13 19:14:46 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 20:14:46 -0400 Subject: KVMs References: <007801c6bf32$ba548890$0b01a8c0@game> <44DFBD8B.1070801@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <009001c6bf36$a6cbc870$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 8:02 PM Subject: Re: KVMs > > It *should* be simple to get a box to do all of the above. > It's disappointing and annoying that it *isn't*! :-( I was surprised it took Belkin so long to get a KVM for home use that switched audio (perfect for retro gamers with multiple generations of machines). My Black Box 12 port ADB KVM must have been made for a server room since it has jumpers for each video output so machines can boot and sense a "monitor" even when you are using another port on the KVM. I guess its not worth it financialy to make and sell a low volume multi platform KVM under $1000, then again I thaught there would be a few EE degreed people on this list who would have designed and made one just for the hell of it (since they would need one). From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sun Aug 13 19:28:07 2006 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 20:28:07 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Vince wrote: > From: "woodelf" > > Don wrote: > > > Solder paste and hot air are infinitely easier. > > > > > But can you do POPCORN too. :) > > Still I would like to see in surface mount --- > > tiny Flip/Clips and see how small you can build > > a PDP-{Favorate number}. > > One thing that I think *would* be awesome in surface mount, > would be to do a "scale model" based on the straight-8, with > all those little SMT diodes and transistors, and no logic > IC's at all (except possibly some SMT RAM to replace the core > planes) :-). I have been toying with the idea of doing a one inch to one foot (doll house scale) fully functional IMSAI. Clearly, it would be implemented on some sort of PAL or PIC... the idea would be for the front panel and a serial port (maybe a video out too (cromemco Dazzler?)) to be fully functional with a "floppy" drive implemented on one of the little flash memory packs. I sat in a bar talking to Hans F. about it once, he really got into it at the time but maybe the idea lost its luster once the beer wore off. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sun Aug 13 19:34:20 2006 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 20:34:20 -0400 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <44DF67BD.2000502@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: Don wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > Tim Shoppa wrote: > >> Jules Richardson wrote: > >>> Why it's getting steadily worse, I don't know. I'm tempted to lay the > >>> blame at the feet of faster and more widespread communications; if > >>> people can communicate more quickly and further afield then there'll > >>> be more pressure to get a job done as quickly as possible and with an > >>> eye to short-term savings only. > >> > >> I was tempted to think that in the 2000 era we had gotten past the hump > >> of "buy more hardware because it's cheap" stage. > > > > I think the problem there was that the software guys saw that people > > were buying lots of hardware because it was cheap, and bloated their > > code out to match :( > > And, to be honest, I think "we" (developers, etc.) also take > advantage of the improvements in technology. Laziness creeps > in. E.g., I had to write a nice little search algorithm > to minimize a function. I didn't hesitate to pass int[50] > arrays AS ARGUMENTS to the *recursive* function (e.g., > it will recurse to a depth of ~50 and each invocation > carries 200 bytes of int[] arguments). Sure, I could > write something more elegant but it's a throw-away > algorithm (to verify some parameters) that I *may* use > twice more in my lifetime?? The very idea that you can pass anything other than LVALUES as parameters is evil. Jackass language designers (Oh! I'm going to design the silver bullet language that it is impossible to write a bug in) and compiler writers are to blame. Really, everything should still be written in assembler. C is just a portable assembler. I'm not kidding here. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 19:51:36 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 17:51:36 -0700 Subject: KVMs In-Reply-To: <009001c6bf36$a6cbc870$0b01a8c0@game> References: <007801c6bf32$ba548890$0b01a8c0@game> <44DFBD8B.1070801@dakotacom.net> <009001c6bf36$a6cbc870$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <44DFC918.2090500@dakotacom.net> Teo Zenios wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 8:02 PM > Subject: Re: KVMs > > >> It *should* be simple to get a box to do all of the above. >> It's disappointing and annoying that it *isn't*! :-( > > I was surprised it took Belkin so long to get a KVM for home use that > switched audio (perfect for retro gamers with multiple generations of > machines). > > My Black Box 12 port ADB KVM must have been made for a server room since it > has jumpers for each video output so machines can boot and sense a > "monitor" even when you are using another port on the KVM. The Omniview does this. When you power it up, it will automatically select the first source it finds. What I miss is the footpedal that my other KVM has (since I put the KVM "out of the way") > I guess its not worth it financialy to make and sell a low volume multi > platform KVM under $1000, then again I thaught there would be a few EE > degreed people on this list who would have designed and made one just for > the hell of it (since they would need one). It doesn't make sense financially to *build* one when you can cobble something together from free/cheap KVMs. :-( It's not a particularly difficult task but there are lots of "little things" that take up design time (e.g., you want a PIC/AVR/some other low power MCU sitting on each keyboard/mouse port all the time POWERED BY THE EXTERNAL DEVICE -- not the KVM -- so they can track keyboard/mouse state all the time; you need to develop a "universal" key numbering/naming scheme so the *user's* choice of keyboard cn be mapped to each of the various machines attached to the switch; you have to worry about 100MHz video rates; etc.) From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 20:00:11 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:00:11 -0700 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DFCB1B.80600@dakotacom.net> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Don wrote: >> Jules Richardson wrote: >>> Tim Shoppa wrote: >>>> Jules Richardson wrote: >>>>> Why it's getting steadily worse, I don't know. I'm tempted to lay the >>>>> blame at the feet of faster and more widespread communications; if >>>>> people can communicate more quickly and further afield then there'll >>>>> be more pressure to get a job done as quickly as possible and with an >>>>> eye to short-term savings only. >>>> I was tempted to think that in the 2000 era we had gotten past the hump >>>> of "buy more hardware because it's cheap" stage. >>> I think the problem there was that the software guys saw that people >>> were buying lots of hardware because it was cheap, and bloated their >>> code out to match :( >> And, to be honest, I think "we" (developers, etc.) also take >> advantage of the improvements in technology. Laziness creeps >> in. E.g., I had to write a nice little search algorithm >> to minimize a function. I didn't hesitate to pass int[50] >> arrays AS ARGUMENTS to the *recursive* function (e.g., >> it will recurse to a depth of ~50 and each invocation >> carries 200 bytes of int[] arguments). Sure, I could >> write something more elegant but it's a throw-away >> algorithm (to verify some parameters) that I *may* use >> twice more in my lifetime?? > > The very idea that you can pass anything other than LVALUES as > parameters is evil. Jackass language designers (Oh! I'm going to > design the silver bullet language that it is impossible to write a > bug in) and compiler writers are to blame. Really, everything > should still be written in assembler. C is just a portable > assembler. I'm not kidding here. I don't blame languages. I blame the folks who either don't fully understand the characteristics/consequences of certain language features *or* the folks who don't understand (nor appreciate) how to *test* things. Languages should give the developer freedom to express whatever algorithm he/she needs to without coloring it. The developer should be able to make realistic tradeoffs (development time, code size, data size, run-time efficiency, reliability, maintenance, etc.) to *justify* his/her implementation choices. Each of those tradeoffs has a REAL *cost* associated with it -- if those aren't visible to the developer (or whomever is making the decisions FOR the developer!) then No Good Results. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Aug 13 20:08:00 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:08:00 +1200 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <44DFCB1B.80600@dakotacom.net> References: <44DFCB1B.80600@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: On 8/14/06, Don wrote: > I don't blame languages. I blame the folks who either > don't fully understand the characteristics/consequences of > certain language features *or* the folks who don't > understand (nor appreciate) how to *test* things. Agreed. I ran into a Perl debugging situation at one company where the code to hit the database and aggregate thousands of e-mail addresses was written by a web developer and then handed off to a database developer when the first guy left. Essentially, the problem was that on a particular day, the code, which had been working, got swamped because it was (legitimately) being asked to handle 20 times the normal amount of recipients. At the bottom of everything, there was a loop with '$x .= $r[$n]' sort of a construct in it to build a list of names, and there was so much string copying going on in the loop that the Perl interpreter eventually barfed (after chewing on the list for 8 hours). My solution was to replace the inner loop with a '$x = $r[$a..$b]' construct - the modified program ran to completion in 20 minutes. The "real" problem was that the first guy didn't really understand the impact of his original construction on the underlying system, and "it worked" for a few thousand names. Didn't scale worth beans, though. -ethan From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 20:24:04 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:24:04 -0700 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: References: <44DFCB1B.80600@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44DFD0B4.3070907@dakotacom.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/14/06, Don wrote: >> I don't blame languages. I blame the folks who either >> don't fully understand the characteristics/consequences of >> certain language features *or* the folks who don't >> understand (nor appreciate) how to *test* things. > > Agreed. I ran into a Perl debugging situation at one company where > the code to hit the database and aggregate thousands of e-mail > addresses was written by a web developer and then handed off to a > database developer when the first guy left. Essentially, the problem > was that on a particular day, the code, which had been working, got > swamped because it was (legitimately) being asked to handle 20 times > the normal amount of recipients. At the bottom of everything, there > was a loop with '$x .= $r[$n]' sort of a construct in it to build a > list of names, and there was so much string copying going on in the > loop that the Perl interpreter eventually barfed (after chewing on the > list for 8 hours). My solution was to replace the inner loop with a > '$x = $r[$a..$b]' construct - the modified program ran to completion > in 20 minutes. The "everything should be in assembler" (paraphrased) comment has some merit -- you get to see what the machine is *really* doing at your behest. Of course, doing *everything* that way quickly becomes counterproductive (and, doesn't eliminate the need for "quality programmers") > The "real" problem was that the first guy didn't really understand the > impact of his original construction on the underlying system, and "it > worked" for a few thousand names. Didn't scale worth beans, though. Exactly. Like: for (x=0; x References: <009001c6bf36$a6cbc870$0b01a8c0@game> <007801c6bf32$ba548890$0b01a8c0@game> <44DFBD8B.1070801@dakotacom.net> <009001c6bf36$a6cbc870$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060813200909.00bcd230@localhost> At 05:51 PM 8/13/2006 -0700, you wrote: >Teo Zenios wrote: >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Don" >>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >>Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 8:02 PM >>Subject: Re: KVMs >> >>>It *should* be simple to get a box to do all of the above. >>>It's disappointing and annoying that it *isn't*! :-( >>I was surprised it took Belkin so long to get a KVM for home use that >>switched audio (perfect for retro gamers with multiple generations of >>machines). >>My Black Box 12 port ADB KVM must have been made for a server room since it >>has jumpers for each video output so machines can boot and sense a >>"monitor" even when you are using another port on the KVM. > >The Omniview does this. When you power it up, it will automatically >select the first source it finds. > >What I miss is the footpedal that my other KVM has (since I put >the KVM "out of the way") Since I only have simple needs for KVMs, and since I was given a really nice one free (Black Box 8-port ServSwitch) and since it does switching from the keyboard (bounce and release the CTRL key, then press a number) I'm not sure why a footswitch is needed. Well, let's say that I've never needed one. Why did you? Just curious. [Love] HE: I'd like to marry your daughter. FATHER: Have you seen my wife yet? HE: Yes, I have. But I prefer your daughter. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 13 20:26:52 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:26:52 -0400 Subject: EX2000 Floppy Drive Tester In-Reply-To: <200608131610400114.3003E949@10.0.0.252> References: <200608131610400114.3003E949@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608132126.52569.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 13 August 2006 07:10 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/13/2006 at 11:19 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > >The spindle speed is close enough for the data separator PLL to lock to > >the signal from the read chain > > Funny thing about that--which goes to show you some wisdom about old > software vs. new. While Windoze can barely figure out what kind of disk > you have in the drive (and sometimes even if there's one in the drive), I > powered up an old CP/M system here to read some old GCR disks. > > One of the first things that I did was to format a diskette. So, I typed > in the command and gave it the usual "G" to go and format and was greeted > with the message: > > FORMAT ABORTED--SPINDLE SPEED IS 7% SLOW. > > The cure was to get the drive testing program out and tweak the pot on the > tach board, but it was a lesson in how, sometimes, the old software on > those poor crippled machines is far from brain-dead. That's pretty impressive, what sort of a cp/m box was that? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 13 20:30:44 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Asynch designs (OT) In-Reply-To: <44DF64EC.9050900@dakotacom.net> References: <44DF64EC.9050900@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <20060813182712.C66396@shell.lmi.net> > >> (about 160GBP/year, > >> approx $140US). > > > > What happened to the pound? used to be substantially more valuable > > than the dollar. > Regardless of exchange rate, dollars = pounds. :-( D'ya mean that you can't get a pint for a pound in pubs the world around? If you do believe that the pound is now worth less than a dollar, then I will pay you one U.S. dollar for each of your British pounds. From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 13 20:32:07 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:32:07 -0400 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <008301c6bf33$c1ec6450$0b01a8c0@game> References: <44DFBAA7.1070103@dakotacom.net> <008301c6bf33$c1ec6450$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <200608132132.07755.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 13 August 2006 07:54 pm, Teo Zenios wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 7:49 PM > Subject: Re: KVM's > > > Was the gs the 65816 box?] > > WDC 65C816 @ 1.0 or 2.8MHz > > http://oldcomputers.net/appleiigs.html Hm. I have one of those, sitting out there in a box, with monitor and two drives and keyboard (and I don't remember if there's a mouse with it or not). Anybody know what that machine will do if I just fire it up? There are, unfortunately, no disks with it, and I really don't know what to expect. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sun Aug 13 20:37:36 2006 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:37:36 -0400 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <44DFD0B4.3070907@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: Don wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 8/14/06, Don wrote: > >> I don't blame languages. I blame the folks who either > >> don't fully understand the characteristics/consequences of > >> certain language features *or* the folks who don't > >> understand (nor appreciate) how to *test* things. > > > > Agreed. I ran into a Perl debugging situation at one company where > > the code to hit the database and aggregate thousands of e-mail > > addresses was written by a web developer and then handed off to a > > database developer when the first guy left. Essentially, the problem > > was that on a particular day, the code, which had been working, got > > swamped because it was (legitimately) being asked to handle 20 times > > the normal amount of recipients. At the bottom of everything, there > > was a loop with '$x .= $r[$n]' sort of a construct in it to build a > > list of names, and there was so much string copying going on in the > > loop that the Perl interpreter eventually barfed (after chewing on the > > list for 8 hours). My solution was to replace the inner loop with a > > '$x = $r[$a..$b]' construct - the modified program ran to completion > > in 20 minutes. > > The "everything should be in assembler" (paraphrased) comment has > some merit -- you get to see what the machine is *really* doing > at your behest. > > Of course, doing *everything* that way quickly becomes > counterproductive (and, doesn't eliminate the need for > "quality programmers") > > > The "real" problem was that the first guy didn't really understand the > > impact of his original construction on the underlying system, and "it > > worked" for a few thousand names. Didn't scale worth beans, though. > > Exactly. Like: > > for (x=0; x for (y=0; y foo[x][y] = ...; > > vs. > > for (y=0; y for (x=0; x foo[x][y] = ...; > > They *look* the same but *aren't*. > > And, in languages like C++, all of the machinery going > on "behind the scenes" (automatic type conversion, > constructor invocations, etc.) is so far out of the > typical "programmer's" mind/scope of knowledge that > it's a wonder *anything* works! :-( > > I found one piece of code that was literally counting bytes > to determine the size of a file instead of stat(2)-ing it > (no, it wasn't a sparse file, special device, etc. ... just > a regular "box of bytes") That's exactly the kind of stuff I have to deal with on a regular basis. We have a large database manipulation application full of classes with accessor methods that return instances of string classes. Copy constructors executing all over the place. Memory being uselessly copied from place to place accounts for over 30 percent of the app's CPU usage. Programmer's response to the suggestion that maybe some of the accessors return (const char *) insead? "That's just wrong." "My classes are bullet proof." "Someone could recast the pointer and sabotage my classes." "Modern computers have plenty of CPU capacity." This code does not go out of our shop... We all regularly review each other's code but he spouts all of the "patterns" nonsense. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Aug 13 20:47:27 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:47:27 -0400 Subject: KVM's References: <44DFBAA7.1070103@dakotacom.net> <008301c6bf33$c1ec6450$0b01a8c0@game> <200608132132.07755.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <00ab01c6bf43$991d8300$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy J. Tellason" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 9:32 PM Subject: Re: KVM's > On Sunday 13 August 2006 07:54 pm, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Don" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 7:49 PM > > Subject: Re: KVM's > > > > > Was the gs the 65816 box?] > > > > WDC 65C816 @ 1.0 or 2.8MHz > > > > http://oldcomputers.net/appleiigs.html > > Hm. > > I have one of those, sitting out there in a box, with monitor and two drives > and keyboard (and I don't remember if there's a mouse with it or not). > > Anybody know what that machine will do if I just fire it up? There are, > unfortunately, no disks with it, and I really don't know what to expect. > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James > M Dakin Unless you have a hard disk installed inside of some kind it will ask you for a floppy to boot from (same as an Amiga). The unit (unless upgraded with a special card) uses 3.5" DD and 5.25" DD disks. If you have an older 68K Mac there are utilities that will allow you to make images into usable disks for the IIgs. If you have a ROM 3 version of the IIgs and a Mac serial cable (plus some software on the Mac side) you can network boot the machine from a Mac. http://www.whatisthe2gs.apple2.org.za/the_fairway/index.html The above link has some images of games you can convert to floppy and boot from if you just want to test the system out. Since the IIgs uses ADB keyboards and mice any ADB Mac mouse should work on it. If you have some RAM expansion cards you can make some GS/OS boot disks for a GUI or use older Mac II apps and PRODOS disks via the 5.25" drive. TZ From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 20:58:22 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 18:58:22 -0700 Subject: KVMs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060813200909.00bcd230@localhost> References: <009001c6bf36$a6cbc870$0b01a8c0@game> <007801c6bf32$ba548890$0b01a8c0@game> <44DFBD8B.1070801@dakotacom.net> <009001c6bf36$a6cbc870$0b01a8c0@game> <5.1.0.14.2.20060813200909.00bcd230@localhost> Message-ID: <44DFD8BE.9000008@dakotacom.net> Tom Peters wrote: > At 05:51 PM 8/13/2006 -0700, you wrote: >> Teo Zenios wrote: >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don" >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 8:02 PM >>> Subject: Re: KVMs >>> >>>> It *should* be simple to get a box to do all of the above. >>>> It's disappointing and annoying that it *isn't*! :-( >>> I was surprised it took Belkin so long to get a KVM for home use that >>> switched audio (perfect for retro gamers with multiple generations of >>> machines). >>> My Black Box 12 port ADB KVM must have been made for a server room >>> since it >>> has jumpers for each video output so machines can boot and sense a >>> "monitor" even when you are using another port on the KVM. >> >> The Omniview does this. When you power it up, it will automatically >> select the first source it finds. >> >> What I miss is the footpedal that my other KVM has (since I put >> the KVM "out of the way") > > Since I only have simple needs for KVMs, and since I was given a really > nice one free (Black Box 8-port ServSwitch) and since it does switching > from the keyboard (bounce and release the CTRL key, then press a number) > I'm not sure why a footswitch is needed. Well, let's say that I've never > needed one. Why did you? Just curious. I believe each of my KVM's have a "feature" like that. I only tried it on the one I *know* claims to have that feature. And it locked up! Also, does your "tap CTRL" feature get confused if you use CTRL as a modifier for a mouse action and "coincidentally" happen to type a numeric key thereafter? (or, does your switch monitor the mouse simultaneously and INSIST that the mouse "does nothing" while you tap CTRL?). I suspect it might also be a problem or gamers (??) The long version of the short answer is: I prefer out-of-band signaling :> From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Aug 13 20:58:00 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:58:00 +1200 Subject: Miniature CPU repro (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) Message-ID: On 8/14/06, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I have been toying with the idea of doing a one inch to one foot > (doll house scale) fully functional IMSAI. Clearly, it would be > implemented on some sort of PAL or PIC... the idea would be for > the front panel and a serial port (maybe a video out too (cromemco > Dazzler?)) to be fully functional with a "floppy" drive implemented > on one of the little flash memory packs. Hmm... at 1/12th scale... I would think the front panel would be the tricky part. The interior shouldn't be so bad. One could use a camcorder eyepiece display for the CRT, if you did a Dazzler. Be a bit tough to read text, though. I take it you wouldn't be considering working switches on the front panel, only blinkenlights, right? Sounds interesting. Would make an interesting VCF display. -ethan From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 13 21:03:14 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 22:03:14 -0400 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <00ab01c6bf43$991d8300$0b01a8c0@game> References: <200608132132.07755.rtellason@verizon.net> <00ab01c6bf43$991d8300$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <200608132203.14196.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 13 August 2006 09:47 pm, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > > Was the gs the 65816 box?] > > > > > > WDC 65C816 @ 1.0 or 2.8MHz > > > > > > http://oldcomputers.net/appleiigs.html > > > > Hm. > > > > I have one of those, sitting out there in a box, with monitor and two > > drives and keyboard (and I don't remember if there's a mouse with it or > > not). > > > > Anybody know what that machine will do if I just fire it up? There are, > > unfortunately, no disks with it, and I really don't know what to > > expect. > > Unless you have a hard disk installed inside of some kind it will ask you > for a floppy to boot from (same as an Amiga). I haven't opened it up to see yet, no place to put it in here. And I'm not at all familiar with Amiga, either. Most of my experience is with PCs, pre-PC stuff including lots of CP/M boxes, and pre-Amiga c= stuff. > The unit (unless upgraded with a special card) uses 3.5" DD and 5.25" DD > disks. If you have an older 68K Mac there are utilities that will allow you > to make images into usable disks for the IIgs. No macs around either. > If you have a ROM 3 version of the IIgs and a Mac serial cable (plus some > software on the Mac side) you can network boot the machine from a Mac. Hm. Any easy way to tell the ROM version? > http://www.whatisthe2gs.apple2.org.za/the_fairway/index.html > > The above link has some images of games you can convert to floppy and boot > from if you just want to test the system out. Since the IIgs uses ADB > keyboards and mice any ADB Mac mouse should work on it. If you have some > RAM expansion cards you can make some GS/OS boot disks for a GUI or use > older Mac II apps and PRODOS disks via the 5.25" drive. I really have enough going on that I hadn't planned on getting into yet another kind of machine here, so I was hoping to sell it or otherwise find someone who wants it. It'd be nice if I could show it doing something, in that case... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Aug 13 21:05:53 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:05:53 +1200 Subject: SMT PDP-8 (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) Message-ID: On 8/14/06, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > One thing that I think *would* be awesome in surface mount, > > would be to do a "scale model" based on the straight-8, with > > all those little SMT diodes and transistors, and no logic > > IC's at all (except possibly some SMT RAM to replace the core > > planes) :-). > > > > Vince > > > > (It might also be cool to make some of the diodes the glowing kind.) > > > > That has been discussed before. It would be fun to do something like the > PDP8-S on a single PCB with only resistors, capacitors, SOT-23 transistors and > dual diodes (And yes LEDs in all the FF outputs would be nice). I'd build one, especially if it was Negibus-compatible. I could attach a real DF-32 to it. ;-) Has anyone estimated the physical size? A real PDP-8/S has about 1000 transistors and a lot more passives than that, not counting external things like a TTY interface (besides serializing the ALU, that's one of the ways they shoehorned Straight-8 technology into such a tiny box). One could always start small and build something simpler from the same technology - a simple clock or something - sort of a test-drive to see what the scope of a full processor would entail. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Aug 13 21:13:09 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:13:09 +1200 Subject: Handwire vs PCBs (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) Message-ID: On 8/14/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I think the big problem was a shift in thought. Anyone who learned to > solder back in the handwired days remembers being told over and over again > that "Solder does not make a mechanical connection". Or in other words, > good wiring practice demanded that a wire be mechanically attached to its > terminal before solder was applied. Along come PCBs and what's holding > everything together? Solder. My dad (who was a Ham in the 1950s) told me over and over that solder is not a load-bearing material. Of course, given the weight of 1950s components, if you _don't_ make a good mechanical connection first, a solder-only joint is likely to fail eventually. I remember how hard it was to tear apart stuff from those days... I needed a solder gun and a quick hand with the needle-nosed pliers to start to unwind the leads from the solder tabs before the mass of the pliers cooled the joints. OTOH, a technique I've picked up from a co-worker here for nice faraday-cage-type enclosures (for RF-emitting/using projects) is to solder a box from chunks of copper-clad board. It's easy to work with and for stuff that small enough to fit in your hand, *very* strong. -ethan From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 21:20:17 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 19:20:17 -0700 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44DFDDE1.7030100@dakotacom.net> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Don wrote: >> And, in languages like C++, all of the machinery going >> on "behind the scenes" (automatic type conversion, >> constructor invocations, etc.) is so far out of the >> typical "programmer's" mind/scope of knowledge that >> it's a wonder *anything* works! :-( > That's exactly the kind of stuff I have to deal with on a > regular basis. We have a large database manipulation application > full of classes with accessor methods that return instances of > string classes. Copy constructors executing all over the place. > Memory being uselessly copied from place to place accounts for Exactly. "X = Y" can consume a sh*tload of cycles depending on what X is, etc. > over 30 percent of the app's CPU usage. Programmer's response > to the suggestion that maybe some of the accessors return > (const char *) insead? > > "That's just wrong." "My classes are bullet proof." "Someone > could recast the pointer and sabotage my classes." "Modern > computers have plenty of CPU capacity." > > This code does not go out of our shop... We all regularly > review each other's code but he spouts all of the "patterns" > nonsense. I suspect the code was never "engineered", either. Just slapped together until it worked and then kept that way as a "fait accompli". From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Aug 13 21:23:09 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:23:09 +1200 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <44DFDDE1.7030100@dakotacom.net> References: <44DFDDE1.7030100@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: On 8/14/06, Don wrote: > I suspect the code was never "engineered", either. > Just slapped together until it worked and then kept > that way as a "fait accompli". I've referred to that as the "code until it stops failing" technique - i.e., it may not really work (or do what you think), but it's "done" when you stop getting compiler errors or _obviously_ erroneous results. I've seen a lot of that in the academic environment. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Aug 13 21:27:12 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:27:12 +1200 Subject: Asynch designs (OT) In-Reply-To: <20060813182712.C66396@shell.lmi.net> References: <44DF64EC.9050900@dakotacom.net> <20060813182712.C66396@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 8/14/06, Fred Cisin wrote: > D'ya mean that you can't get a pint for a pound in pubs the world around? Oy! Not in a long time. IIRC, a pint of lager in Oxforrd was about 95p in 1985 and a pint of bitter was around 85p (dunno about London prices, but not a *lot* more than that). When I returned last year, it was closer to 2 /Pounds 90 for a pint of bitter (about $5.50 US). Still damn tasty, though. -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 13 21:35:53 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 22:35:53 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <28eb418638a7eb0e24480fc77d8d6f46@neurotica.com> References: <200608120751.k7C7pjRa024797@dewey.classiccmp.org> <28eb418638a7eb0e24480fc77d8d6f46@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Very true...but I've looked far & wide for a reason for that > specification to exist, and have found none. The only thing I can > think of is the possible flattening out of the balls causing them to > short against adjacent ones...but is that really possible? Not sure. I suspect the spec may be due to what IBM found with SLT developement in 1963 (which was basically BGA on a small scale) - having some height allowed for a small moment arm, which was good for absorbing the flexes due to thermal expansion as the chip heats up. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 13 21:38:31 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 22:38:31 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <6bf9893ceebdc122ea79cf7953cf2bad@neurotica.com> References: <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> <44DE08FC.80101@dakotacom.net> <200608121132430606.29DF1F0E@10.0.0.252> <44DE32C2.3050709@dakotacom.net> <200608121329290029.2A4A03B7@10.0.0.252> <44DE4253.2020803@dakotacom.net> <44DE4FF5.7050905@gmail.com> <6bf9893ceebdc122ea79cf7953cf2bad@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Speaking of giggling...Sridhar, I just came across the pictures of > your "mobile VAXcluster" in the trunk of your old Camry, when you first > showed up at my place in Florida years ago: Awee, thats nothing. I had a mobile SMP DECsystem-10 in my minivan once (two KS10s can actually fit in a Dodge Grand Caravan at once). Sorry, no pictures, though... -- Will From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 13 21:40:58 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 22:40:58 -0400 Subject: Handwire vs PCBs (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608132240.58821.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 13 August 2006 10:13 pm, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/14/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I think the big problem was a shift in thought. Anyone who learned to > > solder back in the handwired days remembers being told over and over > > again that "Solder does not make a mechanical connection". Or in other > > words, good wiring practice demanded that a wire be mechanically attached > > to its terminal before solder was applied. Along come PCBs and what's > > holding everything together? Solder. > > My dad (who was a Ham in the 1950s) told me over and over that solder > is not a load-bearing material. Of course, given the weight of 1950s > components, if you _don't_ make a good mechanical connection first, a > solder-only joint is likely to fail eventually. I remember how hard > it was to tear apart stuff from those days... I needed a solder gun > and a quick hand with the needle-nosed pliers to start to unwind the > leads from the solder tabs before the mass of the pliers cooled the > joints. Hehe. My "standard" iron is a 45W element with a 1/8" chisel tip and it could probably cope with that, though I do have my 100W/140W gun as well, for the really big stuff like ground connections and such. I've done a fair amount of tearing things apart like that... > OTOH, a technique I've picked up from a co-worker here for nice > faraday-cage-type enclosures (for RF-emitting/using projects) is to > solder a box from chunks of copper-clad board. It's easy to work with > and for stuff that small enough to fit in your hand, *very* strong. I think I first saw that technique mentioned in one copy or another of the Radio Amateur's handbook, though I haven't had the chance to try it out yet. It does look pretty good, though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From trag at io.com Sun Aug 13 21:11:59 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:11:59 -0500 Subject: semiconductor mfr. logos page In-Reply-To: <200608130949.k7D9nQ4N048678@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608130949.k7D9nQ4N048678@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:53:39 -0400 >From: "Roy J. Tellason" >Subject: semiconductor mfr. logos page >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Message-ID: <200608122053.39577.rtellason at verizon.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >A while back I'd sort of thrown something together with a bunch of logos on a >web pages, and since Jay expressed some interest in that some time back I >uploaded it, but since I wasn't happy about a number of aspects of it back >then I didn't link to it and didn't publicize it. ICMaster.com had a few pages of logos and manufacturers' names in alphabetical order, back when. They seem to have revamped their web site and maybe been taken over by someone else. I can't find their logo pages any more. Anyone else have any luck? Jeff Walther From trag at io.com Sun Aug 13 21:49:52 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:49:52 -0500 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608131700.k7DH0j6h057829@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608131700.k7DH0j6h057829@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:09:54 -0400 >From: Dave McGuire >On Aug 12, 2006, at 4:37 PM, Jeff Walther wrote: >> BGA components have a specification for the clearance between the chip >> package and the circuit board after soldering. I don't think you >> could meet that just by putting the thing in the oven. > > Very true...but I've looked far & wide for a reason for that >specification to exist, and have found none. The only thing I can >think of is the possible flattening out of the balls causing them to >short against adjacent ones...but is that really possible? Not sure. I assumed (certainly don't *know*) that the specification is there because if the chip finishes too high above the PCB, then you didn't melt the balls enough and you may have cold joints, etc. and if the chips finishes too low/close to the PCB, then you've squished the balls too much and they may be in danger of shorting. At the least, it seems to me that if you meet the clearance specification, you're more likely to succeed at BGA soldering without expensive equipment to inspect the hidden solder balls. I could be wildly wrong though. I never carried through with my experimental ideas. Another thought is that if you use the feeler guage idea that I proposed, then you can heat the chip and board more thoroughly without the chip sinking any closer to the board. That should help to ensure good solder joints on the interior balls without allowing the chip to squish to close to the board. I think I was looking into it when the PPC750FX and later the PPC750GX came out and I really wanted to get them onto a ZIF module of the type that plugs into the Beige G3 model Macintosh. But Powerlogix came out with a couple of nice cards, so buying commercial became cheaper and more practicle than trying to do it myself. (Thank goodness!) Jeff Walther From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 13 21:50:51 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 22:50:51 -0400 Subject: SMT PDP-8 (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Has anyone estimated the physical size? A real PDP-8/S has about 1000 > transistors and a lot more passives than that, not counting external > things like a TTY interface (besides serializing the ALU, that's one > of the ways they shoehorned Straight-8 technology into such a tiny > box). My PSP-8/s is one of the oddball hybrid machines, and if DEC did a major mechanical redesign, I bet they could have matched what we could do with SMT. The hybrid Flip Chips have acres of bare PCB real estate. -- Will From richardlynch3 at comcast.net Sun Aug 13 21:52:12 2006 From: richardlynch3 at comcast.net (Richard Lynch) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:52:12 -0500 Subject: Need GenRad XXDP+ diagnostics floppy disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Does anyone have the diagnostics diskette #2 for a GenRad 2293 machine, and could send me an image? It's an XXDP+ RX02 8" floppy. I accidentally zeroed the directory of the one I have and would like to recover the diagnostics and systems files if possible. I've gotten a lot of great help from people in trying to resurrect this disk, including Will Kranz and Don North, but it looks like there is still a lot of work ahead and it would be easier if I could find a good image of the disk. Thanks, Richard Lynch From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 13 22:00:06 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:00:06 -0400 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <200608131449.24817.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200608131449.24817.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > I'm not sure that it's REALLY the same function as before. While some stuff > (like Windows) seems to get more bloated for no good reason, there's lots of > things that have good reason to be much more complex than what they were > decades ago. Tax laws, for instance, aren't getting any simpler to deal > with, which means more complex software... and having software that's more > flexible increases its complexity. I think also that the size of the databases have grown by huge amounts. Many applications these days boil down to a database of some form or another. The machines of the past just did not have the horsepower to deal with what we need to deal with today. -- Will From spc at conman.org Sun Aug 13 22:19:12 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:19:12 -0400 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20060814031912.GA5205@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Tim Shoppa once stated: > Recent posts on the subject of "modern" logic families and PCB's > make me think of an obvious trend in computing over the past > several decades: > > Power density (and required cooling/heat dissipation) have grown > greatly. And as a result, were I work (a small web hosting company) we use Cobalt RaQs (about a 40W power supply) for quite a few of our services, like DNS and firewalls (they're more than adequate for such purposes). We even use a Mac mini or two for very light web hosting duties (very low power consumption). > Of course modern desktop PC's (since at least the early/mid 90's) have > vastly greater heat production and cooling requirements, with CPU heat > sinks and fans being vital to reliability. Another approach we're doing is getting some very large and fast PCs and running multiple instances of VMWare---basically, creating a number of PCs on one larger PC. Benefits there (besides a decrease in the average power consumption of a "server") is that installing and backing up a "server" is vastly easier (in the case of VMWare, it's a large single file "is" the server installation). > At the same time, and a subject of increasing frustration for me, > the number of computers required to do a given task has gone up > exponentially. Tasks that used to (meaning 20 or 30 years ago) used > to require a single PDP-8 or PDP-11 class minicomputer now use dozens > to hundreds of PC-clone's to do the same functions. The heat production > (and power and cooling requirements) of all the resulting PC-clones is > hugely higher. One of our customers has *demanded* 100% uptime---failure is *not* an option. And the only way to get *that* is redundancy---multiple Internet connections via multiple routers, feeding into multiple switches feeding into multiple PCs (at the minimum, you're talking about two routers, two switches and two PCs) and the PCs themselves have multiple redundant drives (RAID). Yes, the customer is *paying* for all this, but for those people that demand the uptime, having everything in *one* server is *bad* [1]. But me? I still get by with a 120MHz AMD 586 desktop as my main development machine at home. Sure, it takes the better part of an hour to compile Apache 2.2, but hey, it multitasks, I can still do things on it while it compiles. -spc (And I use a 486DX2 as a firewall and web proxy machine at home) [1] Another customer of ours had a machine fail due to overheating. Fortunately, I was able to use the backup server (it handles the backing up of files from the other two servers the customer has) as the webserver until we could get the crashed box up and running. Otherwise, he would have been down for a few days instead of maybe the two hours or so during the switch. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 13 22:20:05 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 20:20:05 -0700 Subject: EX2000 Floppy Drive Tester In-Reply-To: <200608132126.52569.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608131610400114.3003E949@10.0.0.252> <200608132126.52569.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608132020050646.30E842DC@10.0.0.252> On 8/13/2006 at 9:26 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >That's pretty impressive, what sort of a cp/m box was that? Durango F85 CP/M 2.2. (Guess who wrote the format utility? :) I'd forgotten about the speed test.) Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 13 22:21:42 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 20:21:42 -0700 Subject: Asynch designs (OT) In-Reply-To: <20060813182712.C66396@shell.lmi.net> References: <44DF64EC.9050900@dakotacom.net> <20060813182712.C66396@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200608132021420100.30E9BB9D@10.0.0.252> On 8/13/2006 at 6:30 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >D'ya mean that you can't get a pint for a pound in pubs the world around? Only if the pint's tap water. I suspect that a good imperial stout would be considerably heavier. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 13 22:29:18 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 20:29:18 -0700 Subject: Handwire vs PCBs (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <200608132240.58821.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608132240.58821.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608132029180198.30F0B129@10.0.0.252> On 8/13/2006 at 10:40 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> OTOH, a technique I've picked up from a co-worker here for nice >> faraday-cage-type enclosures (for RF-emitting/using projects) is to >> solder a box from chunks of copper-clad board. It's easy to work with >> and for stuff that small enough to fit in your hand, *very* strong. Bob Pease is a big fan of building chassis out of copper clad PCB blanks. Done right, it's actually pretty strong and doesn't look half bad. Anyone remember American Beauty soldering irons--the big ones that would really hurt you if you picked them up backwards? I still have my old Weller 225W gun. Musical instrumet stuff requires a torch. I use air-acetylene to do local heating, but I know a few folks who swear by oxyacetylene rigs. The idea is sort of the opposite of SMT--to quickly heat a small area before any adjacent soldering melts and comes loose. Solid solder and and liquid acid flux is the norm--more like plumbing than electronics. You learn to work fast. Cheers, Chuck From spc at conman.org Sun Aug 13 22:30:11 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:30:11 -0400 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <44DF5A31.9090205@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44DF4AA4.9040703@yahoo.co.uk> <20060813150747.271A0BA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44DF5A31.9090205@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20060814033011.GB5205@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Jules Richardson once stated: > > I think the problem there was that the software guys saw that people were > buying lots of hardware because it was cheap, and bloated their code out to > match :( Well, it was in the late 60s/early 70s when the cost of hardware dropped below the cost of software (or software development) plus the fact that the speed of computers was doubling about every 18 months or so. There was a study done several years where the conclusion was: if the program you are writing is expected to take over 18 months or so, it was cheaper to just wait a year before running the program and have it finish six months later (or that was the break even point). I remember back in 1992 writing a program that took a solid year (running on a SGI Personal IRIS 4D-35) to finish. Last year I took the code, fixed it up some to run on a modern Linux system (a 4-core CPU system with gobs of memory) and found out that the same dataset only took I think two hours to run (the code itself lent itself to parallelization quite nicely). But yes, there is always pressure to get the software out "now" and efficiency [1] be damned, because time to market is more important. Not speed. Not security. Time to market. [2]. -spc (The trend now *is* using multiple computers, for both speed and redundancy issues ... ) [1] The "efficiency" here is development dollars, not "execution efficiency" or "memory efficiency". [2] "Nobody pays for bug fixes. Everybody pays for features." --Microsft, paraphrased. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 13 22:34:11 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 20:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EX2000 Floppy Drive Tester In-Reply-To: <200608132020050646.30E842DC@10.0.0.252> References: <200608131610400114.3003E949@10.0.0.252> <200608132126.52569.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608132020050646.30E842DC@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060813203234.E66396@shell.lmi.net> > >That's pretty impressive, what sort of a cp/m box was that? On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Durango F85 CP/M 2.2. (Guess who wrote the format utility? :) I'd > forgotten about the speed test.) So, as compared to the multi-megabyte fUtility in Windoze, you could say that the programmers of yore have forgotten more than MS knows. From spc at conman.org Sun Aug 13 22:37:44 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:37:44 -0400 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <44DF67BD.2000502@dakotacom.net> References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44DF4AA4.9040703@yahoo.co.uk> <20060813150747.271A0BA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44DF5A31.9090205@yahoo.co.uk> <44DF67BD.2000502@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <20060814033744.GC5205@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Don once stated: > > And, to be honest, I think "we" (developers, etc.) also take > advantage of the improvements in technology. Laziness creeps > in. E.g., I had to write a nice little search algorithm > to minimize a function. I didn't hesitate to pass int[50] > arrays AS ARGUMENTS to the *recursive* function (e.g., > it will recurse to a depth of ~50 and each invocation > carries 200 bytes of int[] arguments). Sure, I could > write something more elegant but it's a throw-away > algorithm (to verify some parameters) that I *may* use > twice more in my lifetime?? For your example, it was development speed you were optimizing for, not runtime nor memory usage. The problem though, is that often times it's the throw away code that isn't thrown away but instead *becomes* the application. One company I did some work for, Galacticomm, originally made hardware (multi-port serial boards for PCs) and included was some sample programs to show what the hardware could do; one of the programs was a simple multiuser BBS program. Well, it turns out people were buying their hardware *just* to get the sample BBS program, so of course the focus of the company shifted to just *that* program, which turned into the MajorBBS. Of course, they didn't rewrite it or anything---just kept reworking the same old codebase. It wasn't pretty [1]. -spc (And at the time, the entire company was in denial of the Internet. Sad, really) [1] I was brought in to help with the Unix port of the MajorBBS. I had serious issues with not only the code itself, but the coding standards used at the company. I didn't last long there. From spc at conman.org Sun Aug 13 22:42:11 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:42:11 -0400 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <200608131449.24817.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200608131449.24817.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20060814034211.GD5205@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Patrick Finnegan once stated: > > While at work, we might use a cluster of a hundred or so Dell machines to > replace what was done by a single PDP-11 or VAX 11/780 in the late 70s/early > 80s, with the stuff we do, we goet a lot faster turnaround on jobs, and the > jobs have increased in complexity (and usefulness) exponentially along with > the CPU horsepower. In fact, there's people who are talking about (and a few > acutally doing it now) using GPUs on video cards to do some amount of useful > work. GPUs do pretty much nothing but vector operations on large data sets. So if your problem matches that domain, you can use a GPS, thus leaving the CPU to tackle other problems. > In fact, another difference between now and 20 years ago, is that we used to > be a 8-5, M-F shop, with users only being able to use our systems for a > subset of 24 hours per day. Now, we have to keep everything running 7x24, or > users start complaining - and with some code that runs for as long as 30 days > at a time (720 hour jobs) across a whole bunch of systems, even a single > weekly (or monthly) fixed downtime period isn't acceptable to our users. Google could make a killing licensing their GoogleOS (or parts thereof). They manage to use off-the-shelf PCs (and not even the fastest ones) as plug in replacements for their operations. The technology of the software is very impressive. -spc (But I suspect this is getting to be a bit off topic ...) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 13 22:43:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 20:43:38 -0700 Subject: EX2000 Floppy Drive Tester In-Reply-To: <20060813203234.E66396@shell.lmi.net> References: <200608131610400114.3003E949@10.0.0.252> <200608132126.52569.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608132020050646.30E842DC@10.0.0.252> <20060813203234.E66396@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200608132043380268.30FDD0A3@10.0.0.252> On 8/13/2006 at 8:34 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >So, as compared to the multi-megabyte fUtility in Windoze, you >could say that the programmers of yore have forgotten more than >MS knows. Maybe, but sometimes it's like working in a dead language. I think systems-level (not applications) programmers of yesteryear were more aware of the underlying hardware and its foibles. Cheers, Chuck From spc at conman.org Sun Aug 13 22:53:58 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:53:58 -0400 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <44DFD0B4.3070907@dakotacom.net> References: <44DFCB1B.80600@dakotacom.net> <44DFD0B4.3070907@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <20060814035357.GE5205@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Don once stated: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > >The "real" problem was that the first guy didn't really understand the > >impact of his original construction on the underlying system, and "it > >worked" for a few thousand names. Didn't scale worth beans, though. > > Exactly. Like: > > for (x=0; x for (y=0; y foo[x][y] = ...; > > vs. > > for (y=0; y for (x=0; x foo[x][y] = ...; > > They *look* the same but *aren't*. No, they aren't. But I personally never remembered if C stores arrays row major, or column major. Then again, I rarely use two dimentional arrays anyway. But really, it gets to me when I see code like: for (i = 0 ; i < MAX ; i++) foo[i] = 0; when it could easily be replaced with: memset(foo,0,sizeof(foo)); (which would work on multiple dimentioned arrays) or, if C allowed it: foo = 0; (to me, if the compiled sees array rvalue being set to a single lvalue, then the intent I want as a programmer is to set the entire array to that single value). > I found one piece of code that was literally counting bytes > to determine the size of a file instead of stat(2)-ing it > (no, it wasn't a sparse file, special device, etc. ... just > a regular "box of bytes") That's just the programmer not knowing the available functions, or perhaps, coming from a system that doesn't have stat() available (it's not part of the ANSI-C standard library, limiting the ways one can get the size of a file portably, and each of them having problems). For more horror stories, you can always check out http://thedailywtf.com/ . -spc (Have compiler, will program) From brain at jbrain.com Sun Aug 13 22:54:12 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 22:54:12 -0500 Subject: More mags Message-ID: <44DFF3E4.70307@jbrain.com> Now that I got Scott's treasure on it's way, here's a few more options. Scott is not eligible :-) Issue 37-136 of Circuit Cellar, plus a few volume 1 (1.6 and 1.8) and volume 2 issues. I regret ditching this, but I never read them, and I can get them via CD if I do want them later. Mixed (16 or so) issues of Popular Electronics from '93 to 99. dozen or so issues of Modern Electronics/ComputerCraft/Microcomputer Journal from '90 to '97. Mostly 95-97 (Microcomputer Journal) No hoarding, first come, first serve, I'm asking only for shipping costs from Iowa (52402). Anything not claimed hits the recycle bin after a week. Jim From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 23:02:43 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:02:43 -0700 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <20060814033744.GC5205@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44DF4AA4.9040703@yahoo.co.uk> <20060813150747.271A0BA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44DF5A31.9090205@yahoo.co.uk> <44DF67BD.2000502@dakotacom.net> <20060814033744.GC5205@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <44DFF5E3.3030609@dakotacom.net> Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Don once stated: >> And, to be honest, I think "we" (developers, etc.) also take >> advantage of the improvements in technology. Laziness creeps >> in. E.g., I had to write a nice little search algorithm >> to minimize a function. I didn't hesitate to pass int[50] >> arrays AS ARGUMENTS to the *recursive* function (e.g., >> it will recurse to a depth of ~50 and each invocation >> carries 200 bytes of int[] arguments). Sure, I could >> write something more elegant but it's a throw-away >> algorithm (to verify some parameters) that I *may* use >> twice more in my lifetime?? > > For your example, it was development speed you were optimizing for, not Yes and no. What I was optimizing was "make it produce the correct results (numbers) the first time" (since spotting any errors would be a painfully tedious manual task, I wanted to *know* it was bug free from the start). > runtime nor memory usage. The problem though, is that often times it's the > throw away code that isn't thrown away but instead *becomes* the > application. One company I did some work for, Galacticomm, originally made > hardware (multi-port serial boards for PCs) and included was some sample > programs to show what the hardware could do; one of the programs was a > simple multiuser BBS program. From useddec at gmail.com Sun Aug 13 23:07:20 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:07:20 -0500 Subject: Asynch designs In-Reply-To: <4027170d3ba94cf99ae514821373689d@valleyimplants.com> References: <4027170d3ba94cf99ae514821373689d@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <624966d60608132107s5a70042fq4bf7ab55aa8e98cb@mail.gmail.com> As I recall, when I was with NSA, we had an OCR with a "screco" circuit that produced a random character that would interfere with receiving the true signal. A lot of fun to work on. Paul On 8/12/06, Scott Quinn wrote: > > > > > Supposedly, non-clocked logic can also offer greater security because > >there's no clock signal for remote sensors to key on when trying to > >sense what the CPU is doing. This seemed a little odd to me. Do > >espionage types really try to sense what a processor is doing > >remotely, based on the EM emissions from the chip? > > Don't know about processors, but Tempest had a proof of concept for > intercepting I/O from kbd/video. > (Anyone else remember Tempest? for a while they were selling big "tinfoil > hat" type shields for monitors and then, suddenly, > it went away.) Was that NSA that came up with the POC? > > P.S. - for the U.S. types - never would have thought it 15 years ago, but > NSA now has official mousepads you can buy. > > > > From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 13 23:10:19 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:10:19 -0700 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <20060814035357.GE5205@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <44DFCB1B.80600@dakotacom.net> <44DFD0B4.3070907@dakotacom.net> <20060814035357.GE5205@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <44DFF7AB.1090208@dakotacom.net> Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Don once stated: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> The "real" problem was that the first guy didn't really understand the >>> impact of his original construction on the underlying system, and "it >>> worked" for a few thousand names. Didn't scale worth beans, though. > > But really, it gets to me when I see code like: > for (i = 0 ; i < MAX ; i++) > foo[i] = 0; > when it could easily be replaced with: > memset(foo,0,sizeof(foo)); The problem here is when someone walks in and says, "Oh, I need to init the array to '1's instead of '0's" and replaces that with: memset(foo,1,sizeof(foo)); which chokes if sizeof(foo[0]) > 1 If this appears in a seldom invoked place, I prefer the more explicit (i.e. former) code fragment. :-( > (which would work on multiple dimentioned arrays) or, if C allowed it: > foo = 0; > > (to me, if the compiled sees array rvalue being set to a single lvalue, > then the intent I want as a programmer is to set the entire array to that > single value). From useddec at gmail.com Sun Aug 13 23:13:44 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:13:44 -0500 Subject: new acquisitions In-Reply-To: <07072d31ef9cb9f1549f75790467125e@neurotica.com> References: <00a701c6bd9f$14e59dc0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <44DE0616.6070702@neurotica.com> <001001c6bf04$fcb829e0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <07072d31ef9cb9f1549f75790467125e@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <624966d60608132113r5fe53cfbn7e82be1999eddc72@mail.gmail.com> Let me know which one you are looking for. I have several duplicates. Paul On 8/13/06, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Aug 13, 2006, at 2:19 PM, Jay West wrote: > >>> Wow...That's one of the very few Handbooks that I don't have. > >>> That's > >>> an excellent score. > >> > >> Hmm... I'm not sure if I have one of those or not - what machines does > >> it cover? What's the year of publication? > > > > Microcomputer Processor Handbook, Copyright 1980 > > > > It covers LSI-11 stuff, 11/23, ba11-n, 11/03-S, 1103-L, ba11-m, > > 11v03-l, 11t03-l, lsi-11/2, proms, memory systems, etc. > > Urrrrrr? Wait a minute, that's not the one I thought it was. I > thought you were talking about the (rumored) handbook that covers the > processor chipsets, as in the F-11 and J-11. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Cape Coral, FL > > From useddec at gmail.com Sun Aug 13 23:21:25 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:21:25 -0500 Subject: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <0J3V00BPKWSTJDPA@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J3V00BPKWSTJDPA@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <624966d60608132121he70929oa816c31e56ab52e3@mail.gmail.com> I have 8-E core and 8A core and mos. I know someone that I think was developing and manufactruring 8E mos memory. I will try to contact them this week. Paul On 8/12/06, Allison wrote: > > > > >Subject: Re: SMT techniques (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) > > From: Brad Parker > > Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 06:44:50 -0400 > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > > > > >"Ethan Dicks" wrote: > >> > >>I _have_ thought about that for replacement -8/L and -8/i boards - > > > >Just curious, are there any machine readable schematics or netlists > >for the 8/I? > > > >(from my primative understanding an 8/i was made from a few different > >flip chips and a *lot* of backplane wirewrap - just wondering if that's > >machine readable anywhere) > > That decribes a fair amount of the 8i and 8l. > > One it's I've been looking for is if anyone has done a semiconductor > memory for the 8e/f/m omnibus machines. There was a hex wide one for the > 8A. I figure it would be handy for those that don't have enough core or > fully functional core. > > > Allison > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Aug 13 23:23:30 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 00:23:30 -0400 Subject: Mouse systems M4 Optical Mouse References: <010401c6bdd8$0a134b20$0b01a8c0@game> <44DDD26A.7010702@arachelian.com> <200608122039.QAA18564@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <014101c6bf59$6635e340$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "der Mouse" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 4:31 PM Subject: Re: Mouse systems M4 Optical Mouse > > The other optical mouse that requires a special pad came with early > > Sun workstations. It looked a bit, well, holographic. It had a > > bunch of dots in it that reflected different based on where the mouse > > was. > > Actually, it has lines of one colour running vertically and lines of > another colour running horizontally, against a shiny background. To my > eye, the vertical lines look blue and the horizontal lines grey; I > suspect there is a reflectance characteristic my eye is not capable of > picking up there, especially as one of the LEDs in the mouse is giving > off invisible light (again, to my eye). > > The visibly-lit LED looks red to me, and (based on covering each LED in > turn and seeing which dimension's motion breaks) goes with the blue > lines (not surprisingly); the invisible-light LED goes with the > grey-appearing lines. > > If you can find suitable inks, printing vertical and horizontal lines > on a shiny surface should do fine - but beware that such mouse pads > exist in at least two and I think three different resolutions; while a > mouse designed for a fine-resolution pad works fine with a coarser pad, > the converse is not true. If you want I can approximate the line > spacing of the mouse pads I have, with a ruler or tape measure and > some careful counting. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B I think I will just hunt for a pad on ebay or find another Amiga mouse to use, and probably mess with some grids on aluminum foil just for fun. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 13 23:29:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:29:37 -0700 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <20060814035357.GE5205@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <44DFCB1B.80600@dakotacom.net> <44DFD0B4.3070907@dakotacom.net> <20060814035357.GE5205@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <200608132129370002.3127E868@10.0.0.252> On 8/13/2006 at 11:53 PM Sean Conner wrote: > for (i = 0 ; i < MAX ; i++) > foo[i] = 0; > > when it could easily be replaced with: > > memset(foo,0,sizeof(foo)); The argument some would give you is that if you had a compiler worth spit, it would optimize away the index and reduce the above to: memset(foo,0,sizeof foo); i = MAX; Then if the compiler saw that the value of i was re-initialized without being read, it would get rid of the last statement. The explicit loop statement is a easy way to explicitly state what's meant and does not rely on the implementation of a library function. One thing I've learned is "never underestimate the cleverness of a good optimizer". If a loop is particularly complicated, you can occasionally find an automatic optimization that's nothing short of pure genius. We need to ask more of our compiler writers; we really do. > That's just the programmer not knowing the available functions, or >perhaps, coming from a system that doesn't have stat() available (it's not >part of the ANSI-C standard library, limiting the ways one can get the size >of a file portably, and each of them having problems). For more horror >stories, you can always check out http://thedailywtf.com/ . Why not fseek( file, 0, SEEK_END); length = ftell( file); ? ANSI-compatible and shouldn't involve any I/O. Cheers, Chuck From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Aug 13 23:42:12 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:42:12 -0700 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <200608131501.48001.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> <44DEC55A.20108@dakotacom.net> <44DF6D52.7030901@msm.umr.edu> <200608131501.48001.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <44DFFF24.9050003@msm.umr.edu> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > >If you mean that the Ultra5 can have a UPA-connected framebuffer, that's >wrong. There's a slot on the board, but there's no way to fit a card in >there, and the power supply for the Ultra 5 doesn't have the extra connector >which connects to the motherboard and powers the UPA slot. > >Yes, I've tried doing this before. :) > > > if you put it in a u10 box it will, the mother boards are identical, and I had to move one when I recived a 10 box. Jim From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Aug 13 23:45:04 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 00:45:04 -0400 Subject: KVM's References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> <44DEC55A.20108@dakotacom.net> <44DF6D52.7030901@msm.umr.edu> <200608131501.48001.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44DFFF24.9050003@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <015201c6bf5c$691cf640$0b01a8c0@game> Was there ever a KVM for big box Amigas? From vrs at msn.com Sun Aug 13 23:45:10 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:45:10 -0700 Subject: SMT PDP-8 (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) References: Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" > > That has been discussed before. It would be fun to do something like the > > PDP8-S on a single PCB with only resistors, capacitors, SOT-23 transistors and > > dual diodes (And yes LEDs in all the FF outputs would be nice). > > I'd build one, especially if it was Negibus-compatible. I could > attach a real DF-32 to it. ;-) That would be quite a conversation piece :-)! Naturally, it should be Negibus compatible! > Has anyone estimated the physical size? A real PDP-8/S has about 1000 > transistors and a lot more passives than that, not counting external > things like a TTY interface (besides serializing the ALU, that's one > of the ways they shoehorned Straight-8 technology into such a tiny > box). I'd guess something like 1/4 scale would be acheivable. If you make it too small, you'll have trouble with the user interface (as you mentioned about the 1/12th scale IMSAI). > One could always start small and build something simpler from the same > technology - a simple clock or something - sort of a test-drive to see > what the scope of a full processor would entail. I'd start out by building replacements for the Rxxx and Sxxx modules, all scaled down. (Once a few of those work, you could start in on a backplane for them.) I was thinking of a 9x2 header/socket arrangement for the interconnect and soldering the header to pads on each side of the board to make little 1" wide modules. (Were there double-sided Rxxx or Sxxx modules? I don't think so, because the connector blocks used to be one sided.) Then you could make the modules the right shape, and route the "handles" right out of the PCB material :-). The result would be about 1"x2.25". For testing, you just need a standard size module with a female 9x2 right angle connector on it, and insert the miniature card being tested. Replace an original module in some old gear with the result, to see if you've got things right. You could also use the technology to resurrect old gear with missing modules :-). That's only a little better than half-scale, though. One quarter scale would need finer pitched connectors, which would probably be way more expensive. Another goofy idea I had (for inexpensive interconnect) was to try to squeeze the SMT modules down into the footprint of, say, an 18 or 20 pin DIP. It wouldn't look much like a replica anymore, though. Vince From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Aug 13 23:48:14 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:48:14 -0700 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <44DFA544.4080808@dakotacom.net> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> <44DE5C9C.4010108@msm.umr.edu> <44DEC55A.20108@dakotacom.net> <44DF6D52.7030901@msm.umr.edu> <44DFA544.4080808@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E0008E.2080206@msm.umr.edu> Don wrote: > jim stephens wrote: > > The "killer app" is a video digitizer with a network > spigot on the back end. Plug video, audio, mouse, keyboard > into the box and address it over the wire! > > Reasonably trivial to do *except* for full motion video > support :-( I have one of the early Apex IP solutions, which puts a PCI card in a cheap compaq running Win NT4, and you export the desktop of the Win NT box when you have the video viewer app up on on your screen. Not fine, because the mouse motions have to be tranfered in via vnc, then when you connect into the viewer application which views the input from the PCI card that has quirks. It's cute if you are on the box's desktop, but pretty much sucked for much else. I also had experience with a recent box with an integrated system to do video / mouse / kb on one side (including automagic USB on one usb B for both USB Mice and keyboard) and it was better, but still quirky. If you boot it up and don't change video mode it worked okay, but was still not as good as VNC into a system. I'd just like to see a vga card with an extra RJ45 on the back and VNC and VGA db15 on the back, plus a connector for the mouse and keyboard for the system. Jim From josefcub at gmail.com Sun Aug 13 23:51:28 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:51:28 -0500 Subject: SMT PDP-8 (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9e2403920608132151l2726f872vf54e1a77c42e610b@mail.gmail.com> On 8/13/06, vrs wrote: > the SMT modules down into the footprint of, say, an 18 or 20 pin DIP. It > wouldn't look much like a replica anymore, though. How about an 18 or 20 pin SIP? Tricky to pull and replace repeatedly, but you'd get the stand-out module look you're trying to achieve. My $0.002, Josef From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Aug 13 23:43:27 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 00:43:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <20060814035357.GE5205@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <44DFCB1B.80600@dakotacom.net> <44DFD0B4.3070907@dakotacom.net> <20060814035357.GE5205@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <200608140452.AAA22561@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > No, they aren't. But I personally never remembered if C stores > arrays row major, or column major. I can't either, but that's because I can't recall which way is row major and which way is column major. But when I recall that int foo[20]; declares foo to be int[20], and int bar[10][20]; declares bar[x] to be int[20] ("int (bar[10])[20];") then it all makes sense. > But really, it gets to me when I see code like: > for (i = 0 ; i < MAX ; i++) > foo[i] = 0; > when it could easily be replaced with: > memset(foo,0,sizeof(foo)); While I realize you said "when", I would point out that this is a valid replacement only when foo is an integral type. If foo is float or pointer, this is not a safe thing to do (except in code that's sufficiently hardware-specific that you can assume the in-memory layout of the relevant data type - and know that all-0-bits is TRT). Also, note that this assumes that sizeof(foo) is MAX*sizeof(foo[0]), though I realize this is easy to fix in the memset call. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From evan at snarc.net Sun Aug 13 23:56:23 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 00:56:23 -0400 Subject: Early 1980s "Computing" magazine? Message-ID: <001101c6bf5d$fd94f7e0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Does anyone have copies of "Computing" magazine from 1981? I think this was a British publication but I'm not certain. Specifically I'm looking for an article in the April 9 titled "NewBrain order freeze as project is reviewed" or something similar. That information is from http://tinyurl.com/z9e5l. - Evan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Aug 14 00:01:57 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 22:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Miniature CPU repro (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Aug 2006, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hmm... at 1/12th scale... I would think the front panel would be the > tricky part. The interior shouldn't be so bad. One could use a > camcorder eyepiece display for the CRT, if you did a Dazzler. Be a > bit tough to read text, though. > > I take it you wouldn't be considering working switches on the front > panel, only blinkenlights, right? I've seen switches of the correct size for a stunt like this. It shouldn't be too hard to make them. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Aug 13 23:54:35 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 00:54:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <0ea8b7f6c80b0ef206134f8b84c7b557@neurotica.com> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> <200608122058.QAA18709@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <0ea8b7f6c80b0ef206134f8b84c7b557@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608140514.BAA22670@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> As I've said a few times, things are *different*... >> Different...and harder, it appears, since at a minimum you need less >> common (and more expensive) tools, > Less common in the workshops of people who do nothing but > through-hole assembly perhaps. Less common in stores, too, IME. I have seen cheap soldering irons and guns on the shelves of numerous hardware-store places, alongside tins of flux and wire-format solder. I cannot recall ever seeing solder paste, or hot-air guns suitable for surface-mount work. Similarly, I have often seen decent soldering irons in catalogs, but can't recall seeing corresponding SM tools alongside them. Does your experience differ? It has admittedly been a while since I looked. > As I said above...it's clear you don't like surface mount technology, > and you're going to PICK PICK PICK at any positive thing anyone says > about it, Whereas you think surface mount can do no wrong, and will not accept any criticism of it. (Yes, that's an exaggeration, but so is your summary paraphrase of my posts.) The original claim, as I recall, was that surface-mount is harder to work with than through-hole. I believe that is true - to get comparable ease of work, you need additional, rarer, and/or more expensive tools, at a minimum, and even then I don't think it's really fair to call it comparably easy to have to use, say, a magnifier.... This has little to nothing to do with whether I like SM, its inherent positive attributes, such as higher component density and easier pick-and-place, or its contextual advantages, such as better availability for many parts. (Or its assorted disadvantages, for that matter.) You may like it. You may choose to use it for a design (independent of whether or not you *like* it). I still maintain it's harder to work with than through-hole. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 00:15:37 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:15:37 +1200 Subject: SMT PDP-8 (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/14/06, vrs wrote: > > Has anyone estimated the physical size? > > I'd guess something like 1/4 scale would be acheivable. If you make it > too small, you'll have trouble with the user interface (as you mentioned > about the 1/12th scale IMSAI). Sure... but the front panel (in this case) doesn't have anything to do with the size of the CPU board. In the case of the -8/S, the lights panel is one board (and plugs into the second row) and the switch panel is another board (and plugs into the first row). > I'd start out by building replacements for the Rxxx and Sxxx modules, all > scaled down. (Once a few of those work, you could start in on a backplane > for them.) Would it be worth the expense of a backplane? I would have thought that the way to do it would be to lay it out on both sides of single, largish PCB with off-board connections for I/O and front panel. > I was thinking of a 9x2 header/socket arrangement for the interconnect > and soldering the header to pads on each side of the board to make little > 1" wide modules. While the originals R and S modules were 18-pin, I'd think that 20-pin headers, etc, would be easier to find in quantity (not that they couldn't be trimmed down, of course). > (Were there double-sided Rxxx or Sxxx modules? I don't > think so, because the connector blocks used to be one sided.) No. The module blocks were single-sided only. > For testing, you just need a standard size module with a female 9x2 right > angle connector on it, and insert the miniature card being tested. Replace > an original module in some old gear with the result, to see if you've got > things right. You could also use the technology to resurrect old gear with > missing modules :-). That's certainly true, but in some cases, they hand-picked modules to get the timing right. > Another goofy idea I had (for inexpensive interconnect) was to try to > squeeze > the SMT modules down into the footprint of, say, an 18 or 20 pin DIP. It > wouldn't look much like a replica anymore, though. I would think the point would be a work-alike replica more than a board-for-board form-factor-in-miniature replica, but whatever works. One thing that would help for size is that about 20% of the backplane size (40x4? 44x4?) is for the 4K core stack. Obviously, that would end up being a couple of 6264s or something like it, and take up *substantially* less space than the original. The front 3 rows (a bit under 10%) or so are the front panel and lamp drivers, and the back few rows are I/O drivers and cable attachments (10%? 15%?) That leaves a bit over 50% for the CPU itself, or about 100 R and S modules, as a rough estimate. I would think that the individual PCB costs, even for something about 2 sq in., and the interconnect hardware would start to make this a rather expensive project. It would, of course, be easier to _test_ dozens of individual modules than a monolithic CPU PCB (since there wouldn't be any interaction issues), but quite a bit pricier. OTOH, even with a $1000 budget, it's cheaper than the going rate for a PDP-8/S these days. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 00:17:22 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:17:22 +1200 Subject: SMT PDP-8 (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <9e2403920608132151l2726f872vf54e1a77c42e610b@mail.gmail.com> References: <9e2403920608132151l2726f872vf54e1a77c42e610b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/14/06, Josef Chessor wrote: > On 8/13/06, vrs wrote: > > the SMT modules down into the footprint of, say, an 18 or 20 pin DIP. It > > wouldn't look much like a replica anymore, though. > > How about an 18 or 20 pin SIP? Tricky to pull and replace repeatedly, > but you'd get the stand-out module look you're trying to achieve. And it would be *substantially* cheaper than dozens of 0.1" headers and sockets. -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Aug 14 00:24:44 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 22:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SMT PDP-8 (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, vrs wrote: > I'd guess something like 1/4 scale would be acheivable. If you make it > too small, you'll have trouble with the user interface (as you mentioned > about the 1/12th scale IMSAI). I agree with the quarter scale. Beyond that and one would need tweezers or hemostats to handle the flipchips. > > One could always start small and build something simpler from the same > > technology - a simple clock or something - sort of a test-drive to see > > what the scope of a full processor would entail. > > I'd start out by building replacements for the Rxxx and Sxxx modules, all > scaled down. (Once a few of those work, you could start in on a backplane > for them.) I'm guestimating that once these miniaturized Rxxx and Sxxx modules are designed, manufacturing them in the quantities required for even a single Straight-8 would be very cheap. Now about the backplane: Is it possible to make it with a PCB, or is wire-wrap absolutely required? > For testing, you just need a standard size module with a female 9x2 right > angle connector on it, and insert the miniature card being tested. Replace > an original module in some old gear with the result, to see if you've got > things right. You could also use the technology to resurrect old gear with > missing modules :-). > > That's only a little better than half-scale, though. One quarter scale > would need finer pitched connectors, which would probably be way more > expensive. It would cost more, but I don't think it would be by very much. How about having three rows of .1" connectors? > Another goofy idea I had (for inexpensive interconnect) was to try to > squeeze the SMT modules down into the footprint of, say, an 18 or 20 pin > DIP. It wouldn't look much like a replica anymore, though. Nah. From a casual browse of my catalogs, it'll cost you around 75 cents per card/backplane connection. Doing the DIP thing would probably end up being more than that. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From josefcub at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 00:31:22 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 00:31:22 -0500 Subject: SMT PDP-8 (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9e2403920608132231k584c2f0boc83c04c11637468c@mail.gmail.com> On 8/14/06, David Griffith wrote: > I'm guestimating that once these miniaturized Rxxx and Sxxx modules are > designed, manufacturing them in the quantities required for even a single > Straight-8 would be very cheap. Now about the backplane: Is it possible > to make it with a PCB, or is wire-wrap absolutely required? On a related note, but a separate question, does anyone actually have the wiring schedule for a PDP-8/S backplane? A long time ago, I was willing to start constructing flip chip modules that made up a PDP-8, but I could never find the wiring schedule for the backplane online so that I could truly build the computer. (I'm great at assembly[sic], horrible at design). Josef From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Aug 13 16:01:47 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 17:01:47 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Looking for information on a QUAD width omnibus RAM card. Not interested in hex wide as it doesn't fit the older Omnibus 8E or F boxes. I used to have a 4kx12 card that used 2102 type rams but had no data for it. That went to and earlier 8E I had. Even schematics would help. In the end I may do my own as a pair of 61256s will certainly fit the bill and barely fill a corner of a board. Allison From paul0926 at comcast.net Sun Aug 13 18:33:43 2006 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 17:33:43 -0600 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > Tasks that used to (meaning 20 or 30 years ago) used > to require a single PDP-8 or PDP-11 class minicomputer now use dozens > to hundreds of PC-clone's to do the same functions. You mean a single computer with lots of terminals or teletypes, or punched card machines. > : WHY DOES IT TAKE 100 COMPUTERS TO DO WHAT > A SINGLE COMPUTER USED TO DO? We could go back to secretarial pools and reduce the number of computers. Or we can go back to the days of timesharing and give up all the wonderful user oriented capabilities that a modern UI offers, but if you include the end terminals in the comparison then it was not really a single computer in my mind. Does anyone know the power difference of the iMac I am typing on right now vs. an old IBM 3279 terminal (which, by the way, was connected to an incredibly inefficient IBM mainframe with a room full of spinning disk machines)? Or the cost of an old Dec terminal? I'm curious how much additional power I am really consuming. The IBM 3080 that I worked on in 1983 supported a few hundred users. It gobbled electricity. I bet if you added the mainframe and all the supporting equipment for it (network controllers, terminals, DASD, printers, etc.), 300 modern PCs are cheaper. But this is merely a guess on my part. Personally, I would like to see real figures before I could buy in to your argument. To me, the problem is merely expansion. Millions and millions of users. Paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Aug 13 21:40:25 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 22:40:25 -0400 Subject: Handwire vs PCBs (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) Message-ID: <0J3Y00DLYVC5V9S7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Handwire vs PCBs (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:13:09 +1200 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >OTOH, a technique I've picked up from a co-worker here for nice >faraday-cage-type enclosures (for RF-emitting/using projects) is to >solder a box from chunks of copper-clad board. It's easy to work with >and for stuff that small enough to fit in your hand, *very* strong. > >-ethan I use that thechnique all the time to build RF assemblies where stray signals need to be bottled up to prevent unwanted signals in the wrong places. the advantage is not only is it a good shield but using scraps (cheap material) you can build custom enclosures for subassemblies. To keep this on topic at least somewhat. Years ago I built a PLL subsystem for a radio with a micro to do the tuning and display chores. The RFI from all that (8748 with led drivers and input controls) was unbearable. Boxed it all up as previously described using copper screen across the display opening and it was reduced to dead silent. Of course the few wires (power, slow parallel digital signal for tuning and switches) entering and leaving had to be properly filtered as well. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 14 00:48:29 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:48:29 -0600 Subject: SMT PDP-8 (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <9e2403920608132231k584c2f0boc83c04c11637468c@mail.gmail.com> References: <9e2403920608132231k584c2f0boc83c04c11637468c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44E00EAD.4000302@jetnet.ab.ca> Josef Chessor wrote: > On a related note, but a separate question, does anyone actually have > the wiring schedule for a PDP-8/S backplane? A long time ago, I was > willing to start constructing flip chip modules that made up a PDP-8, > but I could never find the wiring schedule for the backplane online so > that I could truly build the computer. I think if you are building a replica is to design your own Flip/Chips and build a clean design from scratch. A PDP-8/S does not look that impressive, I know I seen one in the flesh once,as compared to a PDP-8/e. If you go with 20 I/O pins, (and sneaky pcb pinout )a simple GAL (SMT) could make up a generic card and be re-programmed for what ever logic you want. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 14 00:52:09 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:52:09 -0600 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <44E00F89.9090301@jetnet.ab.ca> Paul Heller wrote: > To me, the problem is merely expansion. Millions and millions of users. Nope -- the millions and millions wall warts!!! I hate them. > Paul > > > . > From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Aug 14 00:49:49 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 00:49:49 -0500 Subject: Handwire vs PCBs Message-ID: When you're using a PCB, though, you have a large flat plane for the solder to deal with. If you're doing point-to-point and you don't make a good mechanical connection, then it is likely that you won't have much solder to stick it together with. A good mechanical connection also gives you more surface area for the solder joint. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 00:59:34 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:59:34 +1200 Subject: How CPU's work (was Re: Hi, I'm new...) In-Reply-To: <20060807185839.047125804F@mail.wordstock.com> References: <200608071403.26651.rtellason@verizon.net> <20060807185839.047125804F@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: On 8/8/06, Bryan Pope wrote: > I remember the 68010 was all the rage for Amiga owners when it came out.. > All you had to do was replace your 68000 and BAM! you got almost close > to a 10% speed increase... :) More like 5%, but not bad for a (at the time) $20 chip. All you had to worry about was badly written software that tried to do its own MOVECC instructions instead of calling the OS (the Calculator app with AmigaDOS 1.1 was the classic test app). Of course, you could install a trap handler to "do the right thing", but an unpatched machine would Guru if your user-mode app tried to execute that instruction. Still a fun chip, and it did fix instruction restart issues related to trying to implement true virtual memory. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 01:04:27 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:04:27 +1200 Subject: SMT PDP-8 (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: <44E00EAD.4000302@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <9e2403920608132231k584c2f0boc83c04c11637468c@mail.gmail.com> <44E00EAD.4000302@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 8/14/06, woodelf wrote: > I think if you are building a replica is to design your own Flip/Chips > and build a clean design from scratch. A PDP-8/S does not look that > impressive, I know I seen one in the flesh once,as compared to a > PDP-8/e. If you go with 20 I/O pins, (and sneaky pcb pinout )a simple > GAL (SMT) could make up a generic card and be re-programmed for > what ever logic you want. Yes, but in the case of a Straight-8 or PDP-8/S, the R-series and S-series logic is utterly incompatible with TTL. The supply voltages are +10V and -15V, and asserted logic is +3V or -3V, thus the reason for staying with discrete SMT transistors. The SMT GAL design could be useful for building an M-series machine (-8/L, -8/i), but with that era of machine, the FLIP CHIP modules are double sided, with 36 pins (32 signal pins and up to 4 power/ground pins). -ethan From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 14 01:10:34 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:10:34 -0700 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <44E013DA.6050004@dakotacom.net> Paul Heller wrote: >> Tasks that used to (meaning 20 or 30 years ago) used >> to require a single PDP-8 or PDP-11 class minicomputer now use dozens >> to hundreds of PC-clone's to do the same functions. > > You mean a single computer with lots of terminals or teletypes, or > punched card machines. > >> : WHY DOES IT TAKE 100 COMPUTERS TO DO WHAT >> A SINGLE COMPUTER USED TO DO? > > We could go back to secretarial pools and reduce the number of > computers. Or we can go back to the days of timesharing and give up all > the wonderful user oriented capabilities that a modern UI offers, but if > you include the end terminals in the comparison then it was not really a > single computer in my mind. > > Does anyone know the power difference of the iMac I am typing on right > now vs. an old IBM 3279 terminal (which, by the way, was connected to an > incredibly inefficient IBM mainframe with a room full of spinning disk > machines)? Or the cost of an old Dec terminal? I'm curious how much > additional power I am really consuming. > > The IBM 3080 that I worked on in 1983 supported a few hundred users. It > gobbled electricity. I bet if you added the mainframe and all the > supporting equipment for it (network controllers, terminals, DASD, > printers, etc.), 300 modern PCs are cheaper. But this is merely a guess > on my part. Personally, I would like to see real figures before I could > buy in to your argument. > > To me, the problem is merely expansion. Millions and millions of users. Well, figure each of those 300 (?) mainframe users was sitting at a terminal -- that draws power. For the sake of a 0th order argument, assume the terminal draws the same amount of power as the *monitor* in a modern machine (arguably, some -- electromechanical? -- may draw less; some old VDU's might draw *more* since they rarely had energy efficient designs, screen savers, etc. and LCD's probably draw less than any of the older "terminals"... but, let's ASSUME it's a wash.). Now, you have the power consumed by that mainframe and peripherals to offset the power consumed by 300 (?) modern computers. *If* they each pulled 100W off the mains, that gives the mainframe 30KW to work with. A typical USA residence can burn 20KW before the service breakers trip (100A * 2 legs). That sure seems like a *lot* of power ... just how much does a washing machine disk drive assembly draw? 1000W? And, how many are "required" to support those 300 users? Note that some modern machines draw less than 100W. But, many also draw considerably *more* (e.g., 400W power supplies in gamer PC's). Again, just a zeroth order estimate but it doesn't look like a lead pipe cinch for either case :-/ From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 14 01:11:14 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:11:14 -0700 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: References: <44DFDDE1.7030100@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E01402.9000109@dakotacom.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/14/06, Don wrote: >> I suspect the code was never "engineered", either. >> Just slapped together until it worked and then kept >> that way as a "fait accompli". > > I've referred to that as the "code until it stops failing" technique - Unfortunately, it seems to be the "normal way of doing business" technique. :-( > i.e., it may not really work (or do what you think), but it's "done" > when you stop getting compiler errors or _obviously_ erroneous > results. I've seen a lot of that in the academic environment. From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 14 01:11:07 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:11:07 -0700 Subject: SMT PDP-8 (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) References: <9e2403920608132151l2726f872vf54e1a77c42e610b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" > On 8/14/06, Josef Chessor wrote: > > On 8/13/06, vrs wrote: > > > the SMT modules down into the footprint of, say, an 18 or 20 pin DIP. It > > > wouldn't look much like a replica anymore, though. > > > > How about an 18 or 20 pin SIP? Tricky to pull and replace repeatedly, > > but you'd get the stand-out module look you're trying to achieve. > > And it would be *substantially* cheaper than dozens of 0.1" headers and sockets. If I'm understanding you right, it would still be 0.1" spacing, and so still nearly two inches long. The original cards were only a little under 3.5", so I'm not sure the SIP would give the overall size reduction I was looking for. I'm also not too clear why that would be substantially cheaper. Is it because the header pins are gold plated? Vince From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 14 01:23:07 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:23:07 -0700 Subject: SMT PDP-8 (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) References: Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" > On 8/14/06, vrs wrote: > > I'd start out by building replacements for the Rxxx and Sxxx modules, all > > scaled down. (Once a few of those work, you could start in on a backplane > > for them.) > > Would it be worth the expense of a backplane? I would have thought > that the way to do it would be to lay it out on both sides of single, > largish PCB with off-board connections for I/O and front panel. That would be a lot cheaper, but would sacrifice some of the "vintage" aesthetics :-). > > I was thinking of a 9x2 header/socket arrangement for the interconnect > > and soldering the header to pads on each side of the board to make little > > 1" wide modules. > > While the originals R and S modules were 18-pin, I'd think that 20-pin > headers, etc, would be easier to find in quantity (not that they > couldn't be trimmed down, of course). Sure. One could use keyed 20 pin receptacles, and 18 actual pins. > > For testing, you just need a standard size module with a female 9x2 right > > angle connector on it, and insert the miniature card being tested. Replace > > an original module in some old gear with the result, to see if you've got > > things right. You could also use the technology to resurrect old gear with > > missing modules :-). > > That's certainly true, but in some cases, they hand-picked modules to > get the timing right. Sure, and depending on how closely one followed the old schematics, that might still be needed :-). > > Another goofy idea I had (for inexpensive interconnect) was to try to > > squeeze > > the SMT modules down into the footprint of, say, an 18 or 20 pin DIP. It > > wouldn't look much like a replica anymore, though. > > I would think the point would be a work-alike replica more than a > board-for-board form-factor-in-miniature replica, but whatever works. One would certainly have to pay extra for the look-alike over the work-alike. > I would think that the individual PCB > costs, even for something about 2 sq in., and the interconnect > hardware would start to make this a rather expensive project. I know a couple of places that will do panels inexpensively without quibbling about the number of designs on them. So I'd recommend panelizing about 8"x10" of the things and produce them 30 at a time or so :-). > It > would, of course, be easier to _test_ dozens of individual modules > than a monolithic CPU PCB (since there wouldn't be any interaction > issues), but quite a bit pricier. OTOH, even with a $1000 budget, > it's cheaper than the going rate for a PDP-8/S these days. Agreed. Vince From spc at conman.org Mon Aug 14 01:28:55 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 02:28:55 -0400 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <200608132129370002.3127E868@10.0.0.252> References: <44DFCB1B.80600@dakotacom.net> <44DFD0B4.3070907@dakotacom.net> <20060814035357.GE5205@linus.groomlake.area51> <200608132129370002.3127E868@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060814062855.GF5205@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > On 8/13/2006 at 11:53 PM Sean Conner wrote: > > > for (i = 0 ; i < MAX ; i++) > > foo[i] = 0; > > > > when it could easily be replaced with: > > > > memset(foo,0,sizeof(foo)); > > The argument some would give you is that if you had a compiler worth spit, > it would optimize away the index and reduce the above to: > > memset(foo,0,sizeof foo); > i = MAX; > > Then if the compiler saw that the value of i was re-initialized without > being read, it would get rid of the last statement. The explicit loop > statement is a easy way to explicitly state what's meant and does not rely > on the implementation of a library function. Ah, but see, an ANSI C compiler is free to treat memset() "specially" if you include . In fact, ANSI C is free to treat any function in the Standard C Library (assuming the appropriate header files are included) specially, and usually anything in is handled by inlining the code. > > That's just the programmer not knowing the available functions, or > >perhaps, coming from a system that doesn't have stat() available (it's not > >part of the ANSI-C standard library, limiting the ways one can get the > size > >of a file portably, and each of them having problems). For more horror > >stories, you can always check out http://thedailywtf.com/ . > > Why not fseek( file, 0, SEEK_END); length = ftell( file); ? > ANSI-compatible and shouldn't involve any I/O. First off, you still have to open the file to use fseek()/ftell(). But okay, given that, how is the file opened? If in binary mode, yes, this will work as expected as ftell() for a binary file will return the number of charcters from the beginning of the file [1], but for a text file, the value returned has no defined meaning except that when passed to fseek() it will position the file pointer back to the place when ftell() was called. Why the distinction? Mainly, it comes down to how the end of line is handled, and under Windows (derived from DOS), the following bit of code will behave differently if the file is opened for text vs. binary mode: pos = ftell(fpin); c = fgetc(fpin); if (c == '\n') { newpos = ftell(fpin); printf("End of file character is %d characters long\n",newpos - pos); } If the C runtime detects a CR/LF pair in a text file, it will suck both up and only return an LF, whereas on a binary file, it won't do that. And even the standard says as much about ftell(): For a text stream, its file position indicator contains unspecified information, usable by the fseek() function for returning the file position indicator for the stream to its position at the time of the ftell() call; the difference between two such return values is not necessarily a meaningful measure of the number of characters written or read. Okay, so we need to make sure the file is opened in binary mode, but reading the fine print on fseek(): A binary stream need not meaningfully support fseek() calls with a whence value of SEEK_END. So (if we're being pedantic about portability) we're stuck. fseek(SEEK_END) is only fully defined on text streams, but the result of ftell() is only meaningful on binary streams. Now, reading further about fseek(): For a text stream, either offset shall be zero, or offset shall be a value returned by an earlier call to the ftell() function on the same stream and whence shall be SEEK_SET. In restrospect, if the programmer *was* coding to ANSI C only calls, then maybe it wasn't such a stupid thing to read through the entire file to get the size (since I code under Unix, I'll use stat() and be done with it---if the code gets ported to a system that doesn't support stat(), then maybe I'll write my own stat() that will Do The Right Thing on whatever platform it runs on). Such is the nature of writing portable code. -spc (Granted, I'm being overly pedantic here, but if you want your code to run predictably across platforms, you need to understand what you can and can't do with C) [1] Note: characters, not *bytes*. This from the actual ISO C standard states. What a "character" is is implementation defined. From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 14 01:35:05 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:35:05 -0700 Subject: SMT PDP-8 (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) References: Message-ID: From: "David Griffith" > On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, vrs wrote: > > I'd start out by building replacements for the Rxxx and Sxxx modules, all > > scaled down. (Once a few of those work, you could start in on a backplane > > for them.) > > I'm guestimating that once these miniaturized Rxxx and Sxxx modules are > designed, manufacturing them in the quantities required for even a single > Straight-8 would be very cheap. Now about the backplane: Is it possible > to make it with a PCB, or is wire-wrap absolutely required? I have done layout for a board that implements the wire list for the TC08. (That's a lot simpler than a straight-8, but might compare with the 8/S.) It required 4 layers to route -- wasn't even close in 2 layers. The wire wrap allowed an essentially unlimited number of wire crossings :-). That was also with DEC connector block spacing. If you make the connections closer together, you worsen the congestion. So the backplane (which also wants to be physically large) ends up being a really expensive (and nearly impossible to fix) PCB. Might be better to use wire-wrap (or maybe space the connectors way apart and try for 2 layers) for the prototype :-). > > That's only a little better than half-scale, though. One quarter scale > > would need finer pitched connectors, which would probably be way more > > expensive. > > It would cost more, but I don't think it would be by very much. How about > having three rows of .1" connectors? That would get messy to connect to the board edge, and I'm not sure you'd find the receptacles affordable? Vince From spc at conman.org Mon Aug 14 01:36:39 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 02:36:39 -0400 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <200608140452.AAA22561@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <44DFCB1B.80600@dakotacom.net> <44DFD0B4.3070907@dakotacom.net> <20060814035357.GE5205@linus.groomlake.area51> <200608140452.AAA22561@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20060814063639.GG5205@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great der Mouse once stated: > > > But really, it gets to me when I see code like: > > for (i = 0 ; i < MAX ; i++) > > foo[i] = 0; > > when it could easily be replaced with: > > memset(foo,0,sizeof(foo)); > > While I realize you said "when", I would point out that this is a valid > replacement only when foo is an integral type. If foo is float or > pointer, this is not a safe thing to do (except in code that's > sufficiently hardware-specific that you can assume the in-memory layout > of the relevant data type - and know that all-0-bits is TRT). Which is why I wish C supported a syntax of: sometype_t foo [MAX]; foo = SOME_VALUE; But then, that wouldn't be C anymore 8-P > Also, note that this assumes that sizeof(foo) is MAX*sizeof(foo[0]), > though I realize this is easy to fix in the memset call. If foo is declared as sometype_t foo [MAX]; then sizeof(foo) == sizeof(sometype_t) * MAX But if foo is declared as: sometype_t *foo; then yes, sizeof(foo) != sizeof(sometype_t) * MAX -spc (Who still writes CGI based programs in C ... ) From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 14 01:42:00 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:42:00 -0700 Subject: SMT PDP-8 (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) References: <9e2403920608132231k584c2f0boc83c04c11637468c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: From: "Josef Chessor" > On a related note, but a separate question, does anyone actually have > the wiring schedule for a PDP-8/S backplane? A long time ago, I was > willing to start constructing flip chip modules that made up a PDP-8, > but I could never find the wiring schedule for the backplane online so > that I could truly build the computer. > > (I'm great at assembly[sic], horrible at design). AFAIK, no. The easiest way I know to recreate it is to simply redraw the schematic in question. I have libraries for a lot of M-series modules, the relevant connectors, etc. It wouldn't be that hard to create an R/S series library, and then use that to redraw the 8/S or straight-8. It is many hours of somewhat tedious work, though. (I did it for the TC08.) Once it is redrawn, one can export the netlist, and I even have some Perl to convert that into wire lists suitable for wire-wrap :-). Vince From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 14 01:49:55 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:49:55 -0700 Subject: Scanning formats Message-ID: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> Hi, I usually don't bother compressing TIF's of scanned images -- since I'm not too concerned with saving space for small documents. But, recently, I started scanning B-size drawings (e.g., print sets for projects I've worked on). Usually, I have to scan these at higher resolutions (because I often print B size versions of D size drawings :< ). The larger sheet size and higher scan resolutions are starting to make single sheets quite *large*! Suggestions? I had thought of FAX encoding (naive but it should work well on line drawings/schematics)... Thanks! --don From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 14 01:49:39 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:49:39 -0700 Subject: SMT PDP-8 (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) References: <9e2403920608132231k584c2f0boc83c04c11637468c@mail.gmail.com> <44E00EAD.4000302@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: "woodelf" > I think if you are building a replica is to design your own Flip/Chips > and build a clean design from scratch. A PDP-8/S does not look that > impressive, I know I seen one in the flesh once,as compared to a > PDP-8/e. If you go with 20 I/O pins, (and sneaky pcb pinout )a simple > GAL (SMT) could make up a generic card and be re-programmed for > what ever logic you want. Well, that would be a cool project, but I'd say you were designing a new PDP-8, and would be troubled by calling it a replica. I guess if the big-board version (that shares only the schematic) can be a called "replica", then so can one that shares the aesthetics but not the schematic. To my mind, a replica should really have both (as much as is feasible). Vince From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 14 02:04:38 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 00:04:38 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: From: "Allison" > Looking for information on a QUAD width omnibus RAM card. > Not interested in hex wide as it doesn't fit the older > Omnibus 8E or F boxes. I used to have a 4kx12 card that > used 2102 type rams but had no data for it. That went to > and earlier 8E I had. > > Even schematics would help. In the end I may do my own as > a pair of 61256s will certainly fit the bill and barely fill > a corner of a board. I looked at doing one of these, but got kind of lost about how the timing signals are used. I looked at the MOS RAM for the 8/A, but there's all this cruft for refresh in there, some stuff about suppressing access during ROM access, etc. And then it looks like the memory timing signals are derived somehow from the memory refresh stuff?? Is there a nice place where the Omnibus memory interface control signals are explained somewhere? Vince From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Aug 14 03:42:16 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 04:42:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <20060814063639.GG5205@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <44DFCB1B.80600@dakotacom.net> <44DFD0B4.3070907@dakotacom.net> <20060814035357.GE5205@linus.groomlake.area51> <200608140452.AAA22561@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060814063639.GG5205@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <200608140843.EAA23452@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Also, note that this assumes that sizeof(foo) is MAX*sizeof(foo[0]), >> though I realize this is easy to fix in the memset call. > sometype_t foo [MAX]; > sometype_t *foo; Well, yes; I would actually be more concerned about things like sometime_t foo[(MAX*2)+1]; /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Aug 14 06:51:29 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 05:51:29 -0600 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> References: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E063C1.9010903@e-bbes.com> Don wrote: > Hi, > > Suggestions? I had thought of FAX encoding (naive > but it should work well on line drawings/schematics)... That's the way to go, if you are just scanning black/white. (TIFF Group 4 FAX compression) Or just go to pdf ;-) But please, not another discussion for encoding schematics/drawings in JPG ;-) Cheers From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 14 07:44:48 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 05:44:48 -0700 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <44E063C1.9010903@e-bbes.com> References: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> <44E063C1.9010903@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <44E07040.2090800@dakotacom.net> e.stiebler wrote: > Don wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Suggestions? I had thought of FAX encoding (naive >> but it should work well on line drawings/schematics)... > > That's the way to go, if you are just scanning black/white. > (TIFF Group 4 FAX compression) > Or just go to pdf ;-) I thought pasting a TIFF into a PDF did NOT do any compression? Or, *does* it? > But please, not another discussion for encoding schematics/drawings in > JPG ;-) > > Cheers > From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Aug 14 08:02:27 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 07:02:27 -0600 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <44E07463.3020602@e-bbes.com> Paul Heller wrote: > We could go back to secretarial pools and reduce the number of computers. Or we can go back to the days of timesharing and give up all the wonderful user oriented capabilities that a modern UI offers, but if you include the end terminals in the comparison then it was not really a single computer in my mind. No, you don't have to go back to typewriters, but what about just using what is there ? What about workgroups of around 16 X-Terminals, attached to one computer ? Just one computer to update, just one to do backups, just one virus-scanner ? I know, it is an M$ nightmare, but for the rest of us ? From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Aug 14 08:04:32 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 07:04:32 -0600 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <44E07040.2090800@dakotacom.net> References: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> <44E063C1.9010903@e-bbes.com> <44E07040.2090800@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E074E0.10308@e-bbes.com> Don wrote: >> >> That's the way to go, if you are just scanning black/white. >> (TIFF Group 4 FAX compression) >> Or just go to pdf ;-) > > I thought pasting a TIFF into a PDF did NOT do any compression? > Or, *does* it? Pdf puts an container around the TIFF data, so it is a little bigger, than going to pdf directly. That's all ;-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 14 08:22:30 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 09:22:30 -0400 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <44E063C1.9010903@e-bbes.com> References: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> <44E063C1.9010903@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <63b831244db7a6756ece80e0b821403c@neurotica.com> On Aug 14, 2006, at 7:51 AM, e.stiebler wrote: > But please, not another discussion for encoding schematics/drawings in > JPG ;-) [head explodes] -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Aug 14 08:32:14 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:32:14 +0200 (CEST) Subject: OT: Help needed in forwarding an item Message-ID: <6376.195.114.232.202.1155562334.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hi all, I need someone in the U.S. to forward some items to me. The seller of the items does not ship anything outside the US. The item are 6 large capacitors. Doesn't have to be done for free, and postage gets paid as well of course. Please reply off-list. Thanks, Ed From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 14 08:37:03 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 09:37:03 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: References: <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> <44DE08FC.80101@dakotacom.net> <200608121132430606.29DF1F0E@10.0.0.252> <44DE32C2.3050709@dakotacom.net> <200608121329290029.2A4A03B7@10.0.0.252> <44DE4253.2020803@dakotacom.net> <44DE4FF5.7050905@gmail.com> <6bf9893ceebdc122ea79cf7953cf2bad@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Aug 13, 2006, at 10:38 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > Speaking of giggling...Sridhar, I just came across the pictures of >> your "mobile VAXcluster" in the trunk of your old Camry, when you >> first >> showed up at my place in Florida years ago: > > Awee, thats nothing. I had a mobile SMP DECsystem-10 in my minivan > once (two KS10s can actually fit in a Dodge Grand Caravan at once). > Sorry, no pictures, though... Now wait a minute. I have a Plymouth Grand Voyager (pretty similar I think) and I have a KS10. I don't see how two would fit. What orientation worked? I can say, though, that two DEC H960 racks fit nicely side-by-side in my van; I just moved two this past weekend. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 14 08:50:27 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 06:50:27 -0700 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <44E07463.3020602@e-bbes.com> References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44E07463.3020602@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <44E07FA3.9010000@dakotacom.net> e.stiebler wrote: > Paul Heller wrote: > > We could go back to secretarial pools and reduce the number of > computers. Or we can go back to the days of timesharing and give up all > the wonderful user oriented capabilities that a modern UI offers, but if > you include the end terminals in the comparison then it was not really a > single computer in my mind. > > No, you don't have to go back to typewriters, but what about just using > what is there ? What about workgroups of around 16 X-Terminals, attached > to one computer ? Just one computer to update, just one to do backups, > just one virus-scanner ? This is how I operate, here -- though I have several different servers (which just means getting xdm running properly on each of them). I find I spend far less time maintaining that *group* of (heterogenous) servers than my *one* Windows box. :-( > I know, it is an M$ nightmare, but for the rest of us ? This is where the "Internet is the Computer" is headed :-( From ohh at drizzle.com Mon Aug 14 08:51:41 2006 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 06:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SMT PDP-8 (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: vrs wrote, in part: > I'd guess something like 1/4 scale would be acheivable. If you make it > too small, you'll have trouble with the user interface (as you mentioned > about the 1/12th scale IMSAI). I'd suggest going slightly smaller: 1/6 scale. Then G.I. Joe could use it, not to mention Barbie. :) (It'd be the Ultimate Collectible on eBay... ) -O.- From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 14 08:51:48 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 09:51:48 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608140514.BAA22670@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> <200608122058.QAA18709@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <0ea8b7f6c80b0ef206134f8b84c7b557@neurotica.com> <200608140514.BAA22670@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <7c120677d039f4230547eb0dcd70df7c@neurotica.com> On Aug 14, 2006, at 12:54 AM, der Mouse wrote: >>>> As I've said a few times, things are *different*... >>> Different...and harder, it appears, since at a minimum you need less >>> common (and more expensive) tools, >> Less common in the workshops of people who do nothing but >> through-hole assembly perhaps. > > Less common in stores, too, IME. I have seen cheap soldering irons and > guns on the shelves of numerous hardware-store places, alongside tins > of flux and wire-format solder. I cannot recall ever seeing solder > paste, or hot-air guns suitable for surface-mount work. Similarly, I > have often seen decent soldering irons in catalogs, but can't recall > seeing corresponding SM tools alongside them. Does your experience > differ? It has admittedly been a while since I looked. The closest thing to an "electronics store" around here is Radio Shack. The stuff they sell is not, in my opinion, even suitable for through-hole work. As far as hardware stores...perhaps even less suitable than Radio Shack stuff. >> As I said above...it's clear you don't like surface mount technology, >> and you're going to PICK PICK PICK at any positive thing anyone says >> about it, > > Whereas you think surface mount can do no wrong, and will not accept > any criticism of it. (Yes, that's an exaggeration, but so is your > summary paraphrase of my posts.) Perhaps. I just think it's quite silly to take the luddite attitude that surface mount is automatically evil because it's different from through-hole. I mean no offense here, but it's obvious that you've never worked with it. I don't know a single person who still hates it after having worked with it . I honestly mean no disrespect here. The whole "surface mount is hard" thing just grates on my nerves, because pretty much everyone who has actually done both surface mount and through-hole, myself included, thinks it's easier. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 14 10:28:08 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:28:08 -0700 Subject: SMT PDP-8 (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) References: Message-ID: From: "O. Sharp" > vrs wrote, in part: > > I'd guess something like 1/4 scale would be acheivable. If you make it > > too small, you'll have trouble with the user interface (as you mentioned > > about the 1/12th scale IMSAI). > > I'd suggest going slightly smaller: 1/6 scale. Then G.I. Joe could use it, > not to mention Barbie. :) > > (It'd be the Ultimate Collectible on eBay... ) My wife would be just the collector for it :-). She's not too big on Barbie anymore, though. (Seems to be into "Fashion Royalty", which are approximately the same size.) Vince From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 10:29:52 2006 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:29:52 -0400 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <63b831244db7a6756ece80e0b821403c@neurotica.com> References: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> <44E063C1.9010903@e-bbes.com> <63b831244db7a6756ece80e0b821403c@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0608140829v4e4cf56ayaaadf3b11c9058a7@mail.gmail.com> OK, how about PNG? :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNG All somewhat recent browsers support it, most recent OSes support it natively. Better lossless compression than TIFF. Good metadata support. Open source and not patent encumbered like TIFF (it uses LZW compression.) On 8/14/06, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Aug 14, 2006, at 7:51 AM, e.stiebler wrote: > > But please, not another discussion for encoding schematics/drawings in > > JPG ;-) > > [head explodes] > > -- > Dave McGuire > Cape Coral, FL > > From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 14 10:35:03 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:35:03 -0700 Subject: Scanning formats References: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> <44E063C1.9010903@e-bbes.com><44E07040.2090800@dakotacom.net> <44E074E0.10308@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: From: "e.stiebler" > Don wrote: > > I thought pasting a TIFF into a PDF did NOT do any compression? > > Or, *does* it? > > Pdf puts an container around the TIFF data, so it is a little bigger, > than going to pdf directly. That's all ;-) I thought the newer PDF formats included some kind of compression. Vince From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 14 10:35:23 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:35:23 -0700 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <20060814062855.GF5205@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <44DFCB1B.80600@dakotacom.net> <44DFD0B4.3070907@dakotacom.net> <20060814035357.GE5205@linus.groomlake.area51> <200608132129370002.3127E868@10.0.0.252> <20060814062855.GF5205@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <200608140835230984.33897917@10.0.0.252> On 8/14/2006 at 2:28 AM Sean Conner wrote: > Ah, but see, an ANSI C compiler is free to treat memset() "specially" if >you include . In fact, ANSI C is free to treat any function in >the Standard C Library (assuming the appropriate header files are included) >specially, and usually anything in is handled by inlining the >code. I agree completely--with an optimizing compiler, the result *should* be the most efficient and the easiest to read when the loop's stated explicitly, rather than using the memset() call. > First off, you still have to open the file to use fseek()/ftell(). But >okay, given that, how is the file opened? If in binary mode, yes, this >will work as expected as ftell() for a binary file will return the number of >charcters from the beginning of the file [1], but for a text file, the >value returned has no defined meaning except that when passed to fseek() it will >position the file pointer back to the place when ftell() was called. I'm on your side on this one--the question came up "why not use stat(2)?". My point was that if you couldn't use stat() because it's not ANSI, you might get away with ftell()--for binary files. If you want to write portable code and are dealing with counting the number of charactrers, the only way to do it is to open the file for character input, read it and count the characters. I've done my share of porting 'C' code, cursing the idiot who assumed all of the "Unix-isms" in the original code. The notion of a portable C is ridiculous. The programming model for C posits far too many things about the architecture--for instance, the structure of records within a file. I've used systems where the notion of a record even for the simplest file is very rigorous and you just can't go and open any old file as binary and expect anything meaningful. What if the operating system maintains the notion of a BINARY record as well as a character one? How about those systems that don't have value-delimited (e.g. \n) character records? Or doing arithmetic with char types--or what a pointer can point to. Or the assumption of a binary internal representation. Could you conceive of a C for an IBM 7080, for example? Did the CDC 6600 ever have a C implementation? It did have a Pascal compiler as well as PL/I and a bunch of other languages. Even a simple statement like: char c[100], *pc; pc = &(c[52]); can be entirely foreign to a machine's architecture. What if the machine's not character-addressable? What do the contents of pc mean at that point? On the other hand, if you want a nice portable language, FORTRAN is pretty darned close to universal. Pascal--if your system has it--isn't bad either. But to this observer, C represents a step backwards in language development. If it hadn't been for microcomputers, would we even be talking about C for applications code today? And is one of the requirements for an architecture today that it be able to run C? If so, we're all poorer for it. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 14 10:39:44 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:39:44 -0700 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0608140829v4e4cf56ayaaadf3b11c9058a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> <44E063C1.9010903@e-bbes.com> <63b831244db7a6756ece80e0b821403c@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e0608140829v4e4cf56ayaaadf3b11c9058a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608140839440020.338D70D9@10.0.0.252> On 8/14/2006 at 11:29 AM Jason McBrien wrote: >All somewhat recent browsers support it, most recent OSes support it >natively. Better lossless compression than TIFF. Good metadata support. >Open source and not patent encumbered like TIFF (it uses LZW compression.) Didn't the patent on LZW expire in 2003? No encumbrance there. Cheers, Chuck From ken at seefried.com Mon Aug 14 11:00:51 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:00:51 -0400 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <200608141550.k7EFnnvM086277@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608141550.k7EFnnvM086277@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20060814160051.1014.qmail@seefried.com> From: "Chuck Guzis" > Did the CDC 6600 ever have a C implementation? Dunno about the 6600, but it's decendent the CDC Cyber 180 did. I never even looked at it (the Algol 60 compiler was more interesting...I have the manual for that someplace), but I understand it was painful. Ken From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 11:20:42 2006 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:20:42 -0400 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <200608140839440020.338D70D9@10.0.0.252> References: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> <44E063C1.9010903@e-bbes.com> <63b831244db7a6756ece80e0b821403c@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e0608140829v4e4cf56ayaaadf3b11c9058a7@mail.gmail.com> <200608140839440020.338D70D9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0608140920r1d1ef1ebjbc4ab956889df95f@mail.gmail.com> On 8/14/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 8/14/2006 at 11:29 AM Jason McBrien wrote: > > Didn't the patent on LZW expire in 2003? No encumbrance there. > > Cheers, > Chuck For now... check the second paragraph. http://www.unisys.com/about__unisys/lzw Yep, it's probably not an issue anymore, but you never know. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Aug 14 11:22:56 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:22:56 -0500 Subject: Computers and Heat Density (OT) Message-ID: <1d6b023095824245adb33ab803e7af60@valleyimplants.com> e.steibler wrote >I know, it is an M$ nightmare... Not really- MS will just send its sales force out after the higher-level managers who don't know much about computers, same as now, tell them how Linux is "unsupported" and other UNIXes are "proprietary" (and Windows isn't???), perhaps touch on the SCO threat, imply that UNIX admins are hard to come by and expensive... get them to commit to Windows as a platform and buy a 16p Itanium server with Windows Enterprise, thin clients, and a nice big $150 terminal license for each client. No nightmare there, the MS will probably also sell an Office license per client too. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Aug 14 11:23:57 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:23:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <200608140839440020.338D70D9@10.0.0.252> References: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> <44E063C1.9010903@e-bbes.com> <63b831244db7a6756ece80e0b821403c@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e0608140829v4e4cf56ayaaadf3b11c9058a7@mail.gmail.com> <200608140839440020.338D70D9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608141624.MAA25821@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [...] not patent encumbered like TIFF (it uses LZW compression.) > Didn't the patent on LZW expire in 2003? No encumbrance there. "The" patent? In what jurisdiction? I know of one non-USA jurisdiction in which LZW was patented (I read a copy of the patent at a past job). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 14 11:28:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 09:28:54 -0700 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <20060814160051.1014.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200608141550.k7EFnnvM086277@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20060814160051.1014.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <200608140928540703.33BA76D6@10.0.0.252> On 8/14/2006 at 12:00 PM Ken Seefried wrote: >Dunno about the 6600, but it's decendent the CDC Cyber 180 did. I never >even looked at it (the Algol 60 compiler was more interesting...I have the >manual for that someplace), but I understand it was painful. Did that C generate code only for 64-bit 180 mode or could it generate 60-bit code too? 64-bit wouldn't be too awful, but 60-bit would seem to be close to impossible. "2's complement? Whuzzat?" Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Aug 14 11:25:19 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:25:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <200608140835230984.33897917@10.0.0.252> References: <44DFCB1B.80600@dakotacom.net> <44DFD0B4.3070907@dakotacom.net> <20060814035357.GE5205@linus.groomlake.area51> <200608132129370002.3127E868@10.0.0.252> <20060814062855.GF5205@linus.groomlake.area51> <200608140835230984.33897917@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608141640.MAA25946@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I've done my share of porting 'C' code, cursing the idiot who assumed > all of the "Unix-isms" in the original code. Idiot? Perhaps the code was just written for Unix. I've written plenty of code with no attempt to make it portable to non-Unix, or non-SPARC, or non-VMS, or non-32-bit, or non-whatever. Does that make me an idiot? Well, perhaps, if such portability should have been designed in, but absent such a reason, I don't think so. > The notion of a portable C is ridiculous. Not for suitable values of "portable". I really can't see it as a fault of C if code not written to be portable to non-Unix is not portable to non-Unix. (It may be a fault of the programmer, if porting attempts to non-Unix were reasonably to be expected, but even then it wouldn't be the fault of the *language*.) C co-evolved with Unix. I don't see this as a failing of the language; I see it as a failing of people who not only try to use C on non-Unix but then proceed to blame C for the inevitable mismatch. > Even a simple statement like: > char c[100], *pc; > pc = &(c[52]); > can be entirely foreign to a machine's architecture. What if the > machine's not character-addressable? What do the contents of pc mean > at that point? Whatever is necessary to refer to c[52]. By definition. If char is smaller than the machine's addressing granularity, a pointer-to-char is - must be! - more complicated than a simple memory address. Figuring out how to handle/avoid such things is part of building a C implementation for an architecture. > On the other hand, if you want a nice portable language, FORTRAN is > pretty darned close to universal. Portable, well, perhaps, if you write in an old enough dialect. (Though, again, "portable" immediately raises the question "to what?".) Nice? Not really, unless you're doing heavy numerical code. That's what FORTRAN was designed for and what it shines at. Like most languages, it fares rather badly outside its design domain. > But to this observer, C represents a step backwards in language > development. If it hadn't been for microcomputers, would we even be > talking about C for applications code today? Quite possibly, provided you don't drop Unix in your counterfactual too. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 14 11:49:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 09:49:16 -0700 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <200608141624.MAA25821@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> <44E063C1.9010903@e-bbes.com> <63b831244db7a6756ece80e0b821403c@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e0608140829v4e4cf56ayaaadf3b11c9058a7@mail.gmail.com> <200608140839440020.338D70D9@10.0.0.252> <200608141624.MAA25821@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200608140949160181.33CD1A30@10.0.0.252> On 8/14/2006 at 12:23 PM der Mouse wrote: >"The" patent? In what jurisdiction? I know of one non-USA >jurisdiction in which LZW was patented (I read a copy of the patent at >a past job). This is the relevant US Patent: http://tinyurl.com/pd3qw I find no online references to European patents, other than the note: "...the equivalent patents in Europe and Japan expired on June 18 and June 20, 2004 respectively, with the Canadian patent following on July 7." In any case, the LZW patent is now firmly ensconced in history and should not be a reason to avoid a particular compressed format. Cheers, Chuck From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon Aug 14 11:54:28 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C H Dickman) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:54:28 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> vrs wrote: > I looked at doing one of these, but got kind of lost about how > the timing signals are used. I looked at the MOS RAM for the 8/A, > but there's all this cruft for refresh in there, some stuff about > suppressing access during ROM access, etc. And then it looks like > the memory timing signals are derived somehow from the memory > refresh stuff?? > > Is there a nice place where the Omnibus memory interface control > signals are explained somewhere? > I did a semiconductor memory design for the OMNIBUS several years ago. It was for an -8/e and 32kW using two SRAMs. I never got to documenting it outside of my notebook, but if there is enough interest, I could do some schematics. It is battery backed, so its pretty much equivalent to the core I was replacing. The Small Computer Handbook, the maintenance manuals and timing diagrams from the processor print sets had enough information for me. -chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 14 13:06:25 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:06:25 +0000 Subject: Asynch designs (OT) In-Reply-To: <44DF70FF.2030401@dakotacom.net> References: <200608131741.SAA01888@citadel.metropolis.local> <44DF70FF.2030401@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E0BBA1.1080403@yahoo.co.uk> Don wrote: > Stan Barr wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Jules Richardson said: >> >>> Given that the licence is only for the BBC channels, and I'll perhaps >>> watch 2-3 hours of them per week, it works out as quite an expense >>> per programme! >> >> Not quite - the licence is for having _any_ equipment installed in your >> home capable of receiving broadcast tv - _any_ broadcast tv. The money >> goes (mostly) to the bbc, but a licence is required for any broadcast >> tv equipment including, but not limited to, a tv set, video or dvd >> recorder with a tuner or a computer with a tuner. You still have to >> pay even if you never watch the bbc :-( > > So, the *tuner* is the gotcha? I.e. if you used a component > DVD player/recorder, a video *monitor*, etc. *they* would be > exempt? Actually, the way I always understood it is that the licence fee funds the BBC and isn't used for anything else (such and funding general transmitter install/upkeep). But the Government call it a "TV licence" even though all the cash goes to the BBC, and therefore you need to pay for the licence if you want to watch any channels, not just the BBC. I don't know how well it's been challenged in court - but as the BBC transmits on slightly different frequencies across the country it'd be hard to market a device that was guaranteed not to be able to receive the BBC now or in the future, whilst being able to receive anything else. If you use a DVD player and hook it up to a display that otherwise has no tuner, then you should be safe without a licence. > If so, has this "fact" influenced the types of products > offered there? (e.g., tunerless products?) Not that I know of. I do like the BBC - their programme quality on average is far better than anything I've seen on satellite/cable or on the other terrestrial channels, but it does mean paying a lot for the 95% of programming that I don't actually watch! -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 14 13:09:28 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:09:28 +0000 Subject: ID these boards? In-Reply-To: References: <200608111337.56224.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608111428140589.25597296@10.0.0.252> <200608121349.58757.rtellason@verizon.net> <44DEDF55.6020404@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44E0BC58.6000107@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hmm... I've never had a scanner that I've tried _not_ make a good > scan. I've usually used whatever was handy, typically HP products. > Here's a handy sample... > > http://penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/INS8073/ ... that looks a little fuzzy to me, but maybe my eyes are having an off day! :-) One of the ones I tried was an HP USB model of some flavour - bloody horrible it was, plus the shape of the thing was all rather organic which made it useless for balancing books and the like on. Give me a nice old box-shaped scanner any day! cheers J. -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Mon Aug 14 12:11:48 2006 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:11:48 +0200 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> If you are able to read german text, then the documentation of a 32KW dynamic memory modul from mico for the pdp8/e/f/m and /a may give some hints. I've made a scan available under http://pdp8.de/download/mico-mem.pdf - Gerold C H Dickman wrote: > vrs wrote: > >> I looked at doing one of these, but got kind of lost about how the >> timing signals are used. I looked at the MOS RAM for the 8/A, but >> there's all this cruft for refresh in there, some stuff about >> suppressing access during ROM access, etc. And then it looks like >> the memory timing signals are derived somehow from the memory refresh >> stuff?? >> >> Is there a nice place where the Omnibus memory interface control >> signals are explained somewhere? >> > > I did a semiconductor memory design for the OMNIBUS several years ago. > It was for an -8/e and 32kW using two SRAMs. I never got to > documenting it outside of my notebook, but if there is enough > interest, I could do some schematics. It is battery backed, so its > pretty much equivalent to the core I was replacing. > > The Small Computer Handbook, the maintenance manuals and timing > diagrams from the processor print sets had enough information for me. > > -chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 14 13:17:02 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:17:02 +0000 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <44DFD0B4.3070907@dakotacom.net> References: <44DFCB1B.80600@dakotacom.net> <44DFD0B4.3070907@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E0BE1E.7050503@yahoo.co.uk> Don wrote: > The "everything should be in assembler" (paraphrased) comment has > some merit -- you get to see what the machine is *really* doing > at your behest. Personally I think it's more like "every programmer should have sufficient knowledge of the compiler they're using". By "sufficient" I don't mean that they should know how it'll optimise things in every situation - but they should have a working knowledge of what sorts of constructs will be targets for optimisation. I don't mind people using whatever language they want providing that it's capable of being efficient for the task at hand - but they do need a knowledge of how what they write will be converted into what the computer will actually run. > I found one piece of code that was literally counting bytes > to determine the size of a file instead of stat(2)-ing it > (no, it wasn't a sparse file, special device, etc. ... just > a regular "box of bytes") That's one of the things I don't like about languages like C and PHP - they give you 14 different ways of doing any one thing, which makes the learning curve needed to be proficient rather steep. I suppose it's a little like comparing a RISC to a CISC CPU... some languages offer less flexibility and more effort on the part of the programmer, but they tend to result in a faster, more efficient product. -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 14 13:18:54 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:18:54 +0000 Subject: Early 1980s "Computing" magazine? In-Reply-To: <001101c6bf5d$fd94f7e0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001101c6bf5d$fd94f7e0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <44E0BE8E.6050306@yahoo.co.uk> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Does anyone have copies of "Computing" magazine from 1981? I think this was > a British publication but I'm not certain. Specifically I'm looking for an > article in the April 9 titled "NewBrain order freeze as project is reviewed" > or something similar. Quite possibly; I'm sure we've got it at the museum somewhere. I won't be there until Saturday though - drop me an email nearer the time if you still need it. Asking over on uk.comp.vintage will more than likely get you a copy sooner! :) cheers Jules -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Aug 14 12:19:18 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:19:18 -0400 Subject: Computers and Heat Density (OT) In-Reply-To: <1d6b023095824245adb33ab803e7af60@valleyimplants.com> References: <1d6b023095824245adb33ab803e7af60@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200608141319.18909.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 14 August 2006 12:22, Scott Quinn wrote: > get them to commit to Windows as a platform and buy a 16p Itanium > server with Windows Enterprise, thin clients, and a nice big $150 > terminal license for each client. I think that even Microsoft has gotten a clue, and given up on Itanium by now... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 14 12:41:55 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:41:55 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <00d401c6bfc8$efeeb200$6700a8c0@BILLING> Chuck wrote... > I did a semiconductor memory design for the OMNIBUS several years ago. It > was for an -8/e and 32kW using two SRAMs. I never got to documenting it > outside of my notebook, but if there is enough interest, I could do some > schematics. It is battery backed, so its pretty much equivalent to the > core I was replacing. Maybe it was your diagram I got years ago. Someone did a nice 32kw board for the 8e using two 2114's I think it was. I have the schematics somewhere still. The only reason I didn't build it right away was because at the time I got them, the person said "these schematics aren't quite final, there may have been some tweaking afterwards that didn't make it to the schematic" so I just sat on them. A known working design - I'd want to build that in a heartbeat :) Jay West From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 14 12:23:47 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:23:47 -0700 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <200608141640.MAA25946@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <44DFCB1B.80600@dakotacom.net> <44DFD0B4.3070907@dakotacom.net> <20060814035357.GE5205@linus.groomlake.area51> <200608132129370002.3127E868@10.0.0.252> <20060814062855.GF5205@linus.groomlake.area51> <200608140835230984.33897917@10.0.0.252> <200608141640.MAA25946@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200608141023470400.33ECB4CE@10.0.0.252> On 8/14/2006 at 12:25 PM der Mouse wrote: >Idiot? Perhaps the code was just written for Unix. I've written >plenty of code with no attempt to make it portable to non-Unix, or >non-SPARC, or non-VMS, or non-32-bit, or non-whatever. Does that make >me an idiot? Well, perhaps, if such portability should have been >designed in, but absent such a reason, I don't think so. When it's part of a large product that's meant to be migrated to other platforms and operating systems and a coder writes in Unix dependecies, he's an idiot for not realizing that they were, in fact, Unix dependecies. As I said, I've had my share. >> The notion of a portable C is ridiculous. > >Not for suitable values of "portable". It's not portable to machines that lack the features to support it. There have been many such machines. Therefore, it's not portable. >C co-evolved with Unix. I don't see this as a failing of the language; >I see it as a failing of people who not only try to use C on non-Unix >but then proceed to blame C for the inevitable mismatch. C was devised as a "better than assembly" solution. The original K&R C is incredibly primitive with various "what this does depends on the guy who writes the compiler and the machine". Even modern C still has a few of those. While it may work inside of the Unix context, it's not a general purpose portable language. FORTRAN (and I'll qualify it by saying the '77 or '66 dialects, or even old USA Basic FORTRAN) is far more portable. I recall that several micro vendors packaged cross-assemblers as FORTRAN programs. I had great success on running those just about anywhere without modification. Just add JCL. >Whatever is necessary to refer to c[52]. By definition. >If char is smaller than the machine's addressing granularity, a >pointer-to-char is - must be! - more complicated than a simple memory >address. Figuring out how to handle/avoid such things is part of >building a C implementation for an architecture. Which can be an absolute nightmare on some architectures. So much for "almost as good as assembly". >Portable, well, perhaps, if you write in an old enough dialect. >(Though, again, "portable" immediately raises the question "to what?".) How about your PDP-8/L with nothing but an ASR33 attached? Seems that I remember that it would eat FORTRAN, using paper tape. Will the same setup also compile C? >Nice? Not really, unless you're doing heavy numerical code. That's >what FORTRAN was designed for and what it shines at. Like most >languages, it fares rather badly outside its design domain. Nonsense. I've seen whole operating systems written in FORTRAN. Lawrence Livermore for years wrote most of their systems code in a dialect of FORTRAN called LRLTRAN. I believe that several implementations of SNOBOL were done in it--and I suspect that the same holds true for several "application specific" languages. Before a decent C was avilable for CP/M, I was writing data conversion code in FORTRAN. One advantage of FORTRAN is that since it lacks an explicit pointer type, automatic optimization is often more productive than it is on the typical hunk of C code. Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 14 12:44:48 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:44:48 -0400 Subject: Early 1980s "Computing" magazine? In-Reply-To: <44E0BE8E.6050306@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <001d01c6bfc9$5660bd30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Thanks Jules. I sent an email to the press office of the BCS and hopefully they'll help. -----Original Message----- From: Jules Richardson [mailto:julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk] Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 2:19 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Early 1980s "Computing" magazine? Evan Koblentz wrote: > Does anyone have copies of "Computing" magazine from 1981? I think > this was a British publication but I'm not certain. Specifically I'm > looking for an article in the April 9 titled "NewBrain order freeze as project is reviewed" > or something similar. Quite possibly; I'm sure we've got it at the museum somewhere. I won't be there until Saturday though - drop me an email nearer the time if you still need it. Asking over on uk.comp.vintage will more than likely get you a copy sooner! :) cheers Jules -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 14 12:50:24 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:50:24 -0400 Subject: EX2000 Floppy Drive Tester In-Reply-To: <200608132020050646.30E842DC@10.0.0.252> References: <200608132126.52569.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608132020050646.30E842DC@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608141350.24408.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 13 August 2006 11:20 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/13/2006 at 9:26 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >That's pretty impressive, what sort of a cp/m box was that? > > Durango F85 CP/M 2.2. Never heard of that one, or if I did I don't remember... > (Guess who wrote the format utility? :) I'd forgotten about the speed > test.) I've no idea. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 14 12:57:21 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:57:21 -0600 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <7c120677d039f4230547eb0dcd70df7c@neurotica.com> References: <44DD0389.3010107@neurotica.com> <200608120336.XAA04033@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608112359.09886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44DE0731.8020008@neurotica.com> <200608122058.QAA18709@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <0ea8b7f6c80b0ef206134f8b84c7b557@neurotica.com> <200608140514.BAA22670@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <7c120677d039f4230547eb0dcd70df7c@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44E0B981.90208@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > The closest thing to an "electronics store" around here is Radio > Shack. The stuff they sell is not, in my opinion, even suitable for > through-hole work. > > As far as hardware stores...perhaps even less suitable than Radio > Shack stuff. Heck, I am having trouble finding REAL hardware! Out here in the Backwoods of Canada, they will sell you the latest chinese battery powered screwdriver for $15, but you can't find a small powered hand drill unless it is $100 do all,end all drill. They had 2 $50 drills in stock, now they have one. > I honestly mean no disrespect here. The whole "surface mount is hard" > thing just grates on my nerves, because pretty much everyone who has > actually done both surface mount and through-hole, myself included, > thinks it's easier. Well surface mount does require PCB's, through-hole stuff still has other ways of mounting. What little I have seen of SMT parts is that projects using them is sourced by only one company and is more of IC demo rather than a real project. > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Cape Coral, FL > Now back to using my drill... BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUZZZZZZZZZZ $%!# BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Mon Aug 14 12:55:23 2006 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:55:23 -0500 Subject: LCD question Message-ID: >From: "Barry Watzman" >Subject: Re: LCD question >The chances of being able to successfully use an LCD panel from a laptop >for any other purpose are near zero. I haven't been following this thread too closely, but you might find some useful information on the eio.com site, starting at http://eio.com/lcdintro.htm. There is a discussion of hooking up laptop LCD's to PC's at http://eio.com/lcdconnect.htm. Bob From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Aug 13 14:47:13 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 20:47:13 +0100 Subject: Asynch designs (OT) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:35:43 PDT." <44DF70FF.2030401@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608131947.UAA02530@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Don said: > Stan Barr wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Jules Richardson said: > > > >> Given that the licence is only for the BBC channels, and I'll perhaps watch > >> 2-3 hours of them per week, it works out as quite an expense per programme! > > > > Not quite - the licence is for having _any_ equipment installed in your > > home capable of receiving broadcast tv - _any_ broadcast tv. The money > > goes (mostly) to the bbc, but a licence is required for any broadcast > > tv equipment including, but not limited to, a tv set, video or dvd > > recorder with a tuner or a computer with a tuner. You still have to > > pay even if you never watch the bbc :-( > > So, the *tuner* is the gotcha? I.e. if you used a component > DVD player/recorder, a video *monitor*, etc. *they* would be > exempt? > Yep, one chap won a court case based on that very point! IIRC he had a vcr, without a tuner, used with a monitor, but no tv. > If so, has this "fact" influenced the types of products > offered there? (e.g., tunerless products?) No. :-) Almost every household has a tv, and a license - in fact if you don't have a license they come round to check if you have a tv. (The licensing authorities have a list of all domestic addresses in the uk and they compare it with their list of paid-up licenses and go visit you if you haven't got one!) To get back to the subject line: The Intelasys Sea of Processors runs the individual processors asyncronously each generating their own clock. http://www.intellasys.net http://www.forth.org/svfig/kk/04-2006.html -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 14 13:07:58 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:07:58 -0400 Subject: Anyone know about repairing a Grid Compass? Message-ID: <002601c6bfcc$9324bd90$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Problem with my 1101 -- it turns on but I only get a bunch of vertical lines instead of the splash screen. It worked fine until a couple of months ago. I haven't got any clue about how to fix this. Can anyone help? From wulfcub at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 13:27:49 2006 From: wulfcub at gmail.com (Wulf daMan) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 13:27:49 -0500 Subject: Cleaning microfiche? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/8/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Does anyone have any idea on how to remove oil from Microfiche? The > History Resource Center has a stack of fiche with oil all over it > that needs to be cleaned up. A great deal will depend on the type of fiche. If they're originals, you can use a soft cloth (such as diaper flannel or jersey t-shirt material) and isopranol, "tape head cleaner" (used to get it at radio shack), or high-proof isopropyl alcohol. If it's a colored fiche (ie: diazo duplicate), this is NOT what you want to do. Alcohol tends to kill diazo rather handily. Good old water and a very mild soap works great. No scrubbing for either, as you'll tear the emulsion. Just gently work it with the soft cloth. One you've got it cleaned up, you can rinse it with clean water (distilled), blot the excess, and let it air-dry, or use a hair dryer set on "cool/no heat." I deal with this type of damage on occassion. One of the perks of working for a microfilm shop. --Shaun -- "If you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be a hundred minus one day, so I never have to live without you." -- Winnie The Pooh http://www.lungs4amber.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 14 13:47:06 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:47:06 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <00d401c6bfc8$efeeb200$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <00d401c6bfc8$efeeb200$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <30e737f8c0b2f5847c8c8237bc334f20@neurotica.com> On Aug 14, 2006, at 1:41 PM, Jay West wrote: > Someone did a nice 32kw board for the 8e using two 2114's I think it > was. That'd be a pretty good trick! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 14 14:12:32 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:12:32 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net><44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net><00d401c6bfc8$efeeb200$6700a8c0@BILLING> <30e737f8c0b2f5847c8c8237bc334f20@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <013201c6bfd5$98acab70$6700a8c0@BILLING> Dave wrote.... > That'd be a pretty good trick! I'm going from foggy memory, but as I recall the schematic was for less than 32kw, but had ----- lines showing "add additional chips & lines here" for the 32kw. Jay From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Aug 14 14:31:18 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:31:18 -0500 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <200608140949160181.33CD1A30@10.0.0.252>; from cclist@sydex.com on Mon, Aug 14, 2006 at 09:49:16AM -0700 References: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> <44E063C1.9010903@e-bbes.com> <63b831244db7a6756ece80e0b821403c@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e0608140829v4e4cf56ayaaadf3b11c9058a7@mail.gmail.com> <200608140839440020.338D70D9@10.0.0.252> <200608141624.MAA25821@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608140949160181.33CD1A30@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060814143118.A32473@homer.berkhirt.com> On Mon, Aug 14, 2006 at 09:49:16AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > In any case, the LZW patent is now firmly ensconced in history and should > not be a reason to avoid a particular compressed format. ...with the exception that LZW was never very efficient to begin with. :-) LZ77 variants (specifically LZSS and its variants) have always outperformed LZ78 variants like LZW. -- Jim Leonard http://www.oldskool.org/ Email: trixter at oldskool.org Like PC games? Help support the MobyGames database: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or taste a slice of the demoscene at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From segin2005 at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 14:40:15 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:40:15 -0400 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <200608130841060246.52D8AB11@192.168.42.129> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> <200608130841060246.52D8AB11@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <44E0D19F.1090104@gmail.com> Bruce Lane wrote: > Hi, Don, > > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** > > On 12-Aug-06 at 15:48 Don wrote: > > > >>It doesn't take long to realize that this is a non-solution: >>- keyboards are PS2, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. >>- mice are PS2, Serial, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. I thought the whole idea behind USB was a "Universal" serial bus. >>- video is Sun's 13W3, HD15, DEC's RGB, apple's DB15, etc. Sun/PC/AppleDB15 are all just VGA with different packaging. I read the manual for my Apple 15" Monitor, and it has a pinout in the back describing that it was basically VGA on a different connectior. -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From segin2005 at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 14:40:15 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:40:15 -0400 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <200608130841060246.52D8AB11@192.168.42.129> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> <200608130841060246.52D8AB11@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <44E0D19F.1090104@gmail.com> Bruce Lane wrote: > Hi, Don, > > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** > > On 12-Aug-06 at 15:48 Don wrote: > > > >>It doesn't take long to realize that this is a non-solution: >>- keyboards are PS2, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. >>- mice are PS2, Serial, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. I thought the whole idea behind USB was a "Universal" serial bus. >>- video is Sun's 13W3, HD15, DEC's RGB, apple's DB15, etc. Sun/PC/AppleDB15 are all just VGA with different packaging. I read the manual for my Apple 15" Monitor, and it has a pinout in the back describing that it was basically VGA on a different connectior. -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From ray at arachelian.com Mon Aug 14 14:38:30 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:38:30 -0400 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <44DF5A31.9090205@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44DF4AA4.9040703@yahoo.co.uk> <20060813150747.271A0BA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44DF5A31.9090205@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44E0D136.8060107@arachelian.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Oh, there was certainly some good hardware around. Actually, for > embedded type systems like telecomms, I believe that they haven't seen > anything like the kind of bloat that's around for desktop / server > systems. But the fact that ever-faster telecomms equipment was ever in > vented in the first place has a lot to do with the problem I think > (and not just in computing, but all aspects of society). > > As soon as it's possible to ask a question of someone halfway around > the world and demand an answer in the same day, or reach them whilst > they're visiting the bathroom, there's bound to be trouble! It's already too late. You can meet all of the requirements of your last paragraph with crackberries, sidekicks, via SMS, email, instant pester, and even cell phones. We've all got our leashes. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 14 14:44:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:44:58 -0700 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <20060814143118.A32473@homer.berkhirt.com> References: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> <44E063C1.9010903@e-bbes.com> <63b831244db7a6756ece80e0b821403c@neurotica.com> <5f7d1b0e0608140829v4e4cf56ayaaadf3b11c9058a7@mail.gmail.com> <200608140839440020.338D70D9@10.0.0.252> <200608141624.MAA25821@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608140949160181.33CD1A30@10.0.0.252> <20060814143118.A32473@homer.berkhirt.com> Message-ID: <200608141244580666.346DF75B@10.0.0.252> On 8/14/2006 at 2:31 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >On Mon, Aug 14, 2006 at 09:49:16AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> In any case, the LZW patent is now firmly ensconced in history and should >> not be a reason to avoid a particular compressed format. > >...with the exception that LZW was never very efficient to begin >with. :-) LZ77 variants (specifically LZSS and its variants) have always >outperformed LZ78 variants like LZW. No argument, Jim! Just pointing out that if the patent was an issue with using a certain format, it shouldn't be now as all LZ (or ZL) patents have lapsed. Just like .ARC files--no reason to avoid them now out of fear of getting sued. Any IP claims on the technology are now history. Not that they're a particularly efficient way to go about file compression... Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 14 15:50:05 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:50:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Scanning formats Message-ID: <200608142050.k7EKo5HB033298@keith.ezwind.net> --- Jim Leonard wrote: > On Mon, Aug 14, 2006 at 09:49:16AM -0700, Chuck > Guzis wrote: > > In any case, the LZW patent is now firmly > ensconced in history and should > > not be a reason to avoid a particular compressed > format. > > ...with the exception that LZW was never very > efficient to begin > with. :-) LZ77 variants (specifically LZSS and i ts > variants) have always > outperformed LZ78 variants like LZW. > -- > Jim Leonard LZW was the first compression method I am able to understand and use... although the compression/decompression does get very slow. I understand the (fixed) Huffman method in theory, but am currently unable to implement it. I certainly wouldn't even know where to start for the variable Huffman method :( Has anyone created their own compression method or have any pointers for someone wanting to create their own? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 15:39:39 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 16:39:39 -0400 Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: References: <44DE08FC.80101@dakotacom.net> <200608121132430606.29DF1F0E@10.0.0.252> <44DE32C2.3050709@dakotacom.net> <200608121329290029.2A4A03B7@10.0.0.252> <44DE4253.2020803@dakotacom.net> <44DE4FF5.7050905@gmail.com> <6bf9893ceebdc122ea79cf7953cf2bad@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Now wait a minute. I have a Plymouth Grand Voyager (pretty similar I > think) and I have a KS10. I don't see how two would fit. What > orientation worked? One was straight, the other a bit diagonal. -- Will From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 14 16:06:14 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 16:06:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Asynch designs (OT) Message-ID: <200608142106.k7EL6EeB033683@keith.ezwind.net> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > Don wrote: > > Stan Barr wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> Jules Richardson said: > >> > >>> Given that the licence is only for the BBC > channels, and I'll perhaps > >>> watch 2-3 hours of them per week, it works out > as quite an expense > >>> per programme! > >> > >> Not quite - the licence is for having _any_ > equipment installed in your > >> home capable of receiving broadcast tv - _any_ > broadcast tv. The money > >> goes (mostly) to the bbc, but a licence is > required for any broadcast > >> tv equipment including, but not limited to, a t v > set, video or dvd > >> recorder with a tuner or a computer with a tune r. > You still have to > >> pay even if you never watch the bbc :-( > > > > So, the *tuner* is the gotcha? I.e. if you used a > component > > DVD player/recorder, a video *monitor*, etc. > *they* would be > > exempt? > > Actually, the way I always understood it is that t he > licence fee funds the BBC > and isn't used for anything else (such and funding > general transmitter > install/upkeep). But the Government call it a "TV > licence" even though all the > cash goes to the BBC, and therefore you need to pa y > for the licence if you > want to watch any channels, not just the BBC. > > I don't know how well it's been challenged in cour t > - but as the BBC transmits > on slightly different frequencies across the count ry > it'd be hard to market a > device that was guaranteed not to be able to recei ve > the BBC now or in the > future, whilst being able to receive anything else . > Thats the way I think it works too. I believe the BBC had to renew the patent (or whatever) a few years ago, so we'll be paying them for another 50 years or so. For those outside the US, the BBC also runs atleast 5 main radio stations , plus local ones, here in the UK. Also, some handheld games devices such as my Sega Gamegear (and I believe Nintendo's Game Boy Advance) have TV Tuners which allow them to receive terrestrial TV. Not quite sure how good the picture quality is as I don't have a PSU for my Gamegear yet! :( Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Aug 14 16:03:26 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:03:26 -0400 Subject: LCD question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:55:23 CDT." Message-ID: <200608142103.k7EL3Qeu020307@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Robert Feldman" wrote: > >>From: "Barry Watzman" >>Subject: Re: LCD question > > > >>The chances of being able to successfully use an LCD panel from a laptop >>for any other purpose are near zero. ah, beg to differ. I've used a few. You have to know something about lcd panels and you need an lcd panel controller which matches the 'style' of lcd, but it can be done and it's not hard. most vga style tft panels are pretty close in spec and can be driven off 3.3v or 5v ttl. -brad From ray at arachelian.com Mon Aug 14 16:07:42 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:07:42 -0400 Subject: KVMs In-Reply-To: <200608131912.36924.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608131912.36924.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44E0E61E.4000309@arachelian.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Serial ports? Multiplexer? I just do it over the LAN, where they're all > connected already anyhow... > Yeah, but that doesn't work too well when said server has a broken disk and is physically several thousand miles away. You do need to be able to get on the consoles of these. Where possible, terminal servers works beautifully and are network accessible. Personally, I keep bootable CDROM's in all the servers that have CDROM drives. Else, they can be booted off the network. However, without access to console to poke around with, you're hosed. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 14 16:07:57 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions on convergence... In-Reply-To: <3e34a0420608121700p5f0a8213kc9cb0f105548ff9a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060814210757.6150.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > I have an old (over 11yrs old) Hitachi 21" > CRT model CM2111MU (sub model 512), also known as a > SuperScan Mc21HR RasterOps, > that seems to have a little overlap/failure to > line-up on the colors (also > known as a convergence issue as I've been told). I > can't seem to find anyone > in the area who still works on these damned things. > Anyone have any pointers > to fixing convergence issues or know of anyone in > the Hudson Valley area > (NY) that could fix this big bastard? Any assistance > would be greatly > appeciated. Dude, as far as I know there are controls (trimpots?) for making convergence adjustments inside the monitor. IIRC some had them externally. I'm sure I've done it in the past, but the method will be particular to each monitor usually. A tech manual would prove to be the most helpful. I'm sure there are forums specific to monitor tweaking and repair also. > PS: I'm currently also working on acquiring a > semi-working old MAC Classic > II (I believe), are there any resource sites that > have technical sheets, > etc. to fixing it? A good starting point is macmothership.com. Loads of links and stuph. > John Boffemmyer IV > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 14 16:25:43 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:25:43 -0400 Subject: LCD question In-Reply-To: <200608142103.k7EL3Qeu020307@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200608142103.k7EL3Qeu020307@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200608141725.43633.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 14 August 2006 05:03 pm, Brad Parker wrote: > "Robert Feldman" wrote: > >>From: "Barry Watzman" > >>Subject: Re: LCD question > > > > > > > >>The chances of being able to successfully use an LCD panel from a laptop > >>for any other purpose are near zero. > > ah, beg to differ. > > I've used a few. You have to know something about lcd panels and you > need an lcd panel controller which matches the 'style' of lcd, but it > can be done and it's not hard. > > most vga style tft panels are pretty close in spec and can be driven off > 3.3v or 5v ttl. I started the thread with a question about the backlighting (?) connector on a small LCD unit, probably a 2x16 or 2x20 or similar that I pulled out of some old computer, but this is of some interest to me as well. I have, in storage, a couple or three old 486 laptops, and wouldn't mind at all getting some use out of that hardware. One screen is very obviously trashed but that still leaves two more to play with and three sets of electronics to try and salvage any more part out of. So if there's something that can be done with those I'd sure like to hear about it. If this is too OT for here, we can take it to my list at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/roys-tech-chat/ or just offlist if you'd prefer. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 14 16:37:35 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 16:37:35 -0500 Subject: Cleaning microfiche? In-Reply-To: <44D8E11C.50405@msm.umr.edu> References: <200608081640.MAA08007@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44D8E11C.50405@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060814163632.0556d4d0@mail> At 02:08 PM 8/8/2006, jim stephens wrote: >I would scan them as is if possible, then attempt restoration, and use a throw >away transparency blank on both sides when placing them in a scaznner. > >I have an Epson professional that scans fiche just fine. With the latest Epson flyer I got in the mail, I see they now have wet-mount adapters for scanning negatives. - John From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 14 16:22:42 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:22:42 -0700 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <44E0008E.2080206@msm.umr.edu> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> <44DE5C9C.4010108@msm.umr.edu> <44DEC55A.20108@dakotacom.net> <44DF6D52.7030901@msm.umr.edu> <44DFA544.4080808@dakotacom.net> <44E0008E.2080206@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <44E0E9A2.3030608@dakotacom.net> jim stephens wrote: > Don wrote: > >> jim stephens wrote: >> >> The "killer app" is a video digitizer with a network >> spigot on the back end. Plug video, audio, mouse, keyboard >> into the box and address it over the wire! >> >> Reasonably trivial to do *except* for full motion video >> support :-( > > I have one of the early Apex IP solutions, which puts a > PCI card in a cheap compaq running Win NT4, and you > export the desktop of the Win NT box when you have the > video viewer app up on on your screen. Not fine, because > the mouse motions have to be tranfered in via vnc, then > when you connect into the viewer application which views > the input from the PCI card that has quirks. > It's cute if you are on the box's desktop, but pretty > much sucked for much else. Yeah, but you have to *open* the box-to-be-monitored to install the card (?). So, you need to design a card for each different bus, etc. The *killer* product is one that sits on the video (output) -- far more portable (and far more difficult to design, even with highly integrated video digitizers since you dont have ready access to the dot-clock). :-( > I also had experience with a recent box with an integrated > system to do video / mouse / kb on one side (including > automagic USB on one usb B for both USB Mice and > keyboard) and it was better, but still quirky. If you boot > it up and don't change video mode it worked okay, but > was still not as good as VNC into a system. VNC is "doable" but, again, you have to get *into* the system to install it. Sitting on the video out would be great because it would be *just* as noninvasive as a KVM (though apparently many KVM's are buggy). > I'd just like to see a vga card with an extra RJ45 on the > back and VNC and VGA db15 on the back, plus > a connector for the mouse and keyboard for the system. There are add-in cards that will give you serial access to the IPL process. But, I don't think any that will export the raw video "over the net". From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 14 16:33:13 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:33:13 -0700 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <44E0D19F.1090104@gmail.com> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> <200608130841060246.52D8AB11@192.168.42.129> <44E0D19F.1090104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44E0EC19.5040706@dakotacom.net> Segin wrote: [plese don't Cc cctech on cctalk posts :-( ] > Bruce Lane wrote: >> Hi, Don, >> >> On 12-Aug-06 at 15:48 Don wrote: >>> It doesn't take long to realize that this is a non-solution: >>> - keyboards are PS2, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. >>> - mice are PS2, Serial, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. > > I thought the whole idea behind USB was a "Universal" serial bus. Doesn't matter -- if the equipment to which you are connecting ISN'T usb! :> >>> - video is Sun's 13W3, HD15, DEC's RGB, apple's DB15, etc. > > Sun/PC/AppleDB15 are all just VGA with different packaging. I read the > manual for my Apple 15" Monitor, and it has a pinout in the back > describing that it was basically VGA on a different connectior. Well, *all* video is basically just differences in connectors. But, some connectors also encode information about the monitor for the host (static or dynamic schemes). Some like to put sync on separate pins -- others like SoG, etc. And, having all these "adapter plugs" on the ends of cables doesn't help signal quality -- nor does it make things any *cheaper* or more reliable! :-( From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 14 16:27:11 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:27:11 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <30e737f8c0b2f5847c8c8237bc334f20@neurotica.com> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <00d401c6bfc8$efeeb200$6700a8c0@BILLING> <30e737f8c0b2f5847c8c8237bc334f20@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44E0EAAF.4090208@dakotacom.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Aug 14, 2006, at 1:41 PM, Jay West wrote: >> Someone did a nice 32kw board for the 8e using two 2114's I think it was. > > That'd be a pretty good trick! An *AMAZING* trick (since 2114's are less than a kiloBYTE! :> ) From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 14 16:24:27 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:24:27 -0700 Subject: LCD question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E0EA0B.3010906@dakotacom.net> Robert Feldman wrote: > >> From: "Barry Watzman" >> Subject: Re: LCD question > > > >> The chances of being able to successfully use an LCD panel from a >> laptop for any other purpose are near zero. > > > I haven't been following this thread too closely, but you might find > some useful information on the eio.com site, starting at > http://eio.com/lcdintro.htm. There is a discussion of hooking up laptop > LCD's to PC's at http://eio.com/lcdconnect.htm. I have a friend here (a student) who used a laptop LCD to make a projection television. I haven't seen the "projected image" to speak to its quality, though... From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 17:12:32 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:12:32 +1200 Subject: SMT PDP-8 (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/14/06, vrs wrote: > So the backplane (which also wants to be physically large) ends up being a > really expensive (and nearly impossible to fix) PCB. Might be better to use > wire-wrap (or maybe space the connectors way apart and try for 2 layers) for > the prototype :-). How about what DEC did for later backplanes... 2-layer board plus wire-wrap? You could do the easy stuff, power connections, etc., in copper, then do some of the congestion relieving stuff in the wire-wrap layer. That many wire-wrap sockets (of whatever style) wouldn't be cheap, so I doubt it would save much money over a 4-layer backplane, but you'd make part of the backplane circuit accessible. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 17:16:31 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:16:31 +1200 Subject: ID these boards? In-Reply-To: <44E0BC58.6000107@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200608111337.56224.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608111428140589.25597296@10.0.0.252> <200608121349.58757.rtellason@verizon.net> <44DEDF55.6020404@yahoo.co.uk> <44E0BC58.6000107@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 8/15/06, Jules Richardson wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Here's a handy sample... > > > > http://penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/INS8073/ > > ... that looks a little fuzzy to me, but maybe my eyes are having an off day! :-) The fuzzyness I see is dust on the PCB. Also, due to the thickness of the solder mask, the traces on this board aren't razor sharp in real life. To me, at least, it looks like a good image of the real thing. > One of the ones I tried was an HP USB model of some flavour - bloody horrible > it was, plus the shape of the thing was all rather organic which made it > useless for balancing books and the like on. Give me a nice old box-shaped > scanner any day! Fair enough. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 14 16:35:42 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:35:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Questions on convergence... In-Reply-To: <200608131910.53798.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Aug 13, 6 07:10:53 pm Message-ID: > > On Sunday 13 August 2006 06:05 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I've done that sort of thing, on TVs, and what you describe there ain't > > > old. TVs that were still using all vacuum tubes when I worked on them > > > back in the days I had my shop -- now they were OLD! Convergence used to > > > be a real PITA, because you had static convergence that was done by > > > moving magnets on the neck of the CRT (not to be confused with the purity > > > magnets!) and then you had dynamic convergence, which was typically > > > 12-16 separate adjustments, all of which interacted to some extent. > > > > Actually, having grown up with delta-gun CRTs, I find them much easier to > > set up than the in-line type. Tweaking presets is a lot easier than > > tilting the yoke and hoping.... > > As in it's handled in software? I have not done any convergence adjustments No, not at all. AFAIK all monitors with microprocessor control use PIL CRTs. I jsut find it easier to turn presets than to shift the yoke. Now, as to what killed the delta-gun CRT... Well, Think of the effects of external magnetic fields on the beams, and remember that the electron beam moves perpendicular to the field. Resolve the earth's magnetic field into vertical and horizontal components. The vertical component of said field causes the beams to move horizontally, the horizontal component moves them vertically. BOTH components of the field cause convergence errors on a delta-gun CRT. But on a PIL tube, the horizontal component of the earth's magnetic field just shifts the picture vertically (slightly), and as the phospors are put down in vertical strips, it doesn't cause a convergence error. Now remember that the vertical component is essentially constant in a given area, the effetive horizontal component changes if the CRT is turned round, etc. So a delta-gun tube has to be converged in the place it's going to be used. A portable unit is almost impossible. A PIL tube has to be converged at apporximately the right latitude, but apart from that, it doesn't matter if you move the unit. > since those days, the stuff I'm dealing with any more hardly seems to need > it touched. Perhaps the only thing off in the original poster's monitor is You're lucky. I've never seen a modern-ish TV (that is, a TV recent enough to be a PIL CRT, but not a plasma or LCD panel) that was adequately converged. > those static adjustments, if it suffered some kind of a physical shock, > which I would guess is at least worth looking at, seeing if something is If it's suffered a shock, it's possible the 'aperture grille' (the equivalent of the shadowmask) has come loose inside the CRT. This would cause purity errors, and probably convergence errors too. In fact do we know the OP's monitor has good purity (display a screen of each of the primary colours -- red, green, blue -- does it look even, with no odd coloured patches?) > obviously out of place. I didn't see any response to my point about whether > this happened all of a sudden or gradually over time, though. > > > The other thing is, to do a proper convergence needs a signal that's > > > going to give you a stable pattern, although I suspect that's easier to > > > do with a computer driving it than not, I had to buy a little generator > > > for TVs back > > > > Indeed. With a computer, it's trivial to generate a cross-hatch pattern > > (the main one needed for convergence). > > I always used to start with dots, myself, for the center convergence. I tend to switch between dots and cross-hatch. > > > For TVs, you either buy/build a cross-hatch generator (I remember > > building one from a kit about 15 years ago, it was only a handful of ICs, > > one of which was a TV sync generator chain). Or you use a home computer, > > suitably programmed. There were programs for the BBC micro, C64, etc, > > published in the magazines. > > The one I bought back in 1974 (!) does include the dot, crosshatch, and color > bar patterns as well as a blank raster, for purity adjustments, but only > fixed sizes of them, not fewer or single ones, which I saw featured on some Mine will generate a grid of vertical lines, and a similar grid of horizontal lines. The logical AND is dots, the logical OR is a crosshatch. All 4 of those patterns are switch-selectable, along with an 8-bar greyscale, the obvious 8 bar colour bar pattern, and a plain raster. IIRC, you can enable/disable each of the primary colours for all patterns, so the plain raster can be used to give the 3 primary colour rasters for purity adjustments. > instruments. It uses unijunction transistors as frequency dividers, and has Mine at least uses ICs (mostly TTL from what I remember, along with a PAL encoder chip and a sync generator). > > monitor) on a workstation, as the CPU. Therefore, I'd want to repair the > > monitor if at all possible (even if, say, I have to re-wind a transformer > > to do so,,) > > Some units are no doubt easier to work on than others. Yes, like the semi-professional TV-rate Barco I have here. The first nice feature (if your workshop is as full as mine) is that it's not 'monitor shaped'. It's a cuboidal metal case, so you can stack things (at least manuals, etc) on top of it. Normal monitors are a pain to store. This Barco is cery well made. It's all on plug-in PCBs inside, with an externder board neatly stored in a spare slot so you can work on said PCBs. Oh yes, the manual is worthy of the name, with full schematics, waveforms, testpoints, etc. That's a monitoe I'd put a lot of time into to keep it running. I'd spend rather less on a generic PC monitor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 14 17:10:28 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 23:10:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <013201c6bfd5$98acab70$6700a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Aug 14, 6 02:12:32 pm Message-ID: > Dave wrote.... > > That'd be a pretty good trick! 32kW (122 bit words) in 1k bytes of RAM, I'd like to see that done too... > I'm going from foggy memory, but as I recall the schematic was for less than > 32kw, but had ----- lines showing "add additional chips & lines here" for > the 32kw. If you're going to use 2114s (and I'd recoemnd against it), then you want to use them in 3s. Each chip is 4 bits wide, so 3 of them will store 1k 12 bit words. -tony From halarewich at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 17:41:23 2006 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 15:41:23 -0700 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <6d6501090608141541t265a2596u130cb7caff54c496@mail.gmail.com> you might try here for some gender changer parts http://www.vfxweb.com/index.php?maincateg=18 On 8/12/06, Don wrote: > > Hi, > > In an attempt to cut down on the number of monitors, etc. > here, I dragged out an old KVM (which, unfortunately, seems > to have lost track of his wal wart!). > > It doesn't take long to realize that this is a non-solution: > - keyboards are PS2, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. > - mice are PS2, Serial, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. > - video is Sun's 13W3, HD15, DEC's RGB, apple's DB15, etc. > > Does anyone make a *truly* universal KVM (i.e. so that > I can mix and match all of these flavors)? And, how > outrageously priced is it? > > Or, do I just have to get used to hiding "not in use" > mice, etc. out of the way? > From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Aug 14 17:53:02 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:53:02 -0400 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <44DF6ECD.10501@dakotacom.net> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> <200608130841060246.52D8AB11@192.168.42.129> <44DF6ECD.10501@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E0FECE.5000506@mdrconsult.com> Don wrote: > > OK, Doc (?) mentioned these... > >> They consist of a mainframe which is configured for different > > > system types through the use of different plug-in modules. > > The cables are interesting in that they're all high-density > > You say "interesting" I say "expensive" :> So far, not really. Granted, I have a nice Raritan that's OK, so I've been accumulating Cybex pieces on the cheap. I've spent about $30 on what amounts to a fully poplulated chassis - 12 system cards and 2 console cards, and around $15 apiece for 2 SPARC cables with sound, a very long console cable, a couple of standard PS/2 cables, and one AT/serial cable for my BeBox. And, yes. I have an Imperial crapload of money in my toys - Macs, an Alpha, the BeBox, and RS/6000s mostly, and I simply don't have room for the machines and separate HID. I don't mind spending $300-400 on consolidation that gets me good graphics and, as a bonus, even switched sound. BTW, in answer to another question in a different post, the console cables do come in several flavors, including mini-din-8 and 13W3 for your Sun keyboard, mouse, and monitor. > So, there is nothing *active* in the cables? E.g., the > "mainframe" has all of the "adapters" inside (on the > appropriate cards). Does this pose problems if you > plug the wrong cable into a card (i.e. if cable D shell > pins X & Y expect to be tied to a USB mouse and suddenly > find EIA232 signal levels on those pins)? As far as I can tell, all the logic is "in the box". The cables are just cables. Doc From Tim at Rikers.org Mon Aug 14 17:55:11 2006 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 16:55:11 -0600 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <44DE5C9C.4010108@msm.umr.edu> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> <44DE5C9C.4010108@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <44E0FF4F.7000607@Rikers.org> jim stephens wrote: > Keyboards that are USB convert to PS2 with a gizmo or rather, keyboards that are both usb and ps2 can operate as ps2 with a gizmo. a pure usb keyboard cannot. Also this does not help machines with no PS2 input port. Assuming your KVM is switching PS2 you need usb->ps2->kvm->ps2->usb->host which will not work with the included "gizmos". Now there likely are 3rd party gizmos that are more expensive that do this conversion. >> - mice are PS2, Serial, Sun, USB, ADB, etc. > > meece that are USB can go to PS2. see above. Only cheap on dual usb/ps2 mice. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 14 18:07:12 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 16:07:12 -0700 Subject: Trying to locate some missing tapes... Message-ID: <200608141607120574.35271CF6@10.0.0.252> You folks who buy those lots from DoveBid may want to check into some of the stuff and see if you can locate a tape or two for NASA: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060814/ts_nm/space_tapes_dc_2 (Just kidding--NASA would NEVER surplus this stuff, would they?) From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 14 18:07:16 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 16:07:16 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> Message-ID: > If you are able to read german text, then the documentation of a 32KW > dynamic memory modul > from mico for the pdp8/e/f/m and /a may give some hints. > I've made a scan available under > http://pdp8.de/download/mico-mem.pdf Thanks -- unfortunately that mostly documents the parts I already understood :-). The timing diagram is somewhat helpful, though. Vince From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 14 18:11:17 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 16:11:17 -0700 Subject: SMT PDP-8 (was Re: group buy for homebrew CPUs?) References: Message-ID: <02f201c6bff6$f29be1c0$6700a8c0@vrs> From: "Ethan Dicks" > On 8/14/06, vrs wrote: > > So the backplane (which also wants to be physically large) ends up being a > > really expensive (and nearly impossible to fix) PCB. Might be better to use > > wire-wrap (or maybe space the connectors way apart and try for 2 layers) for > > the prototype :-). > > How about what DEC did for later backplanes... 2-layer board plus > wire-wrap? You could do the easy stuff, power connections, etc., in > copper, then do some of the congestion relieving stuff in the > wire-wrap layer. That many wire-wrap sockets (of whatever style) > wouldn't be cheap, so I doubt it would save much money over a 4-layer > backplane, but you'd make part of the backplane circuit accessible. That'd probably work pretty well. One could also bias things so that the parts one was sure of went into the etch, and anything that looked one wasn't sure they got right could go in the wrap. Vince From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 14 18:21:58 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 16:21:58 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 semiconductor memory Message-ID: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/msc/MSC3102_PDP8semiMem.pdf From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 14 18:29:05 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:29:05 -0600 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> Message-ID: <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> vrs wrote: If you use 2167's ( 16k x 1 ) ram's you can have 16k of memory ( 12 chips ) for about $25 not counting glue logic and other stuff. Does anybody make a wire-wrap proto-type board for the PDP-8/e slots? > Thanks -- unfortunately that mostly documents the parts I already understood > :-). From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 18:43:43 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:43:43 +1200 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 8/15/06, woodelf wrote: > If you use 2167's ( 16k x 1 ) ram's > you can have 16k of memory ( 12 chips ) for > about $25 not counting glue logic and other stuff. Why not use a pair of 62256s? 32Kx16 and ignore 4 bits. It'd even be easy to use a Dallas DS1210 or something like it to provide battery backup. > Does anybody make a wire-wrap proto-type board for the > PDP-8/e slots? Douglas used to. Don't know what they have in stock. -ethan From CaptnZilog at aol.com Mon Aug 14 19:09:22 2006 From: CaptnZilog at aol.com (CaptnZilog at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:09:22 EDT Subject: Apollo DN systems Message-ID: Just figured I'd post this out here... I have a collection of old Apollo DN systems (3000,3010,3500,4000,4500,5500 I think sums it up) I did a little work on porting NetBSD to and then have just never had the time to pursue. Might be willing to part with them to someone in the New England area, since I have monitors with some of them, and OS tapes, spare hard drives, etc. Anyone interested, feel free to contact me... really not up for shipping monitors around, but for someone fairly local with interest I might be willing to do a road trip. email reply, or to: phufnagel at snet.net -- Pete From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Aug 14 19:11:53 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:11:53 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200608142011.53707.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 14 August 2006 19:43, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/15/06, woodelf wrote: > > If you use 2167's ( 16k x 1 ) ram's > > you can have 16k of memory ( 12 chips ) for > > about $25 not counting glue logic and other stuff. > > Why not use a pair of 62256s? 32Kx16 and ignore 4 bits. It'd even be > easy to use a Dallas DS1210 or something like it to provide battery > backup. I'd probably do something like what the SBC-6120 does... use some typical 486 motherboard cache SRAM. Cheap, and relatively easy to find. :) You'd end up with one or two chips to do 32k x 12. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 14 19:15:04 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:15:04 -0700 Subject: Apollo DN systems Message-ID: > I did a little > work on porting NetBSD to and then have just never had the time to pursue. I contacted you a while back, and am still VERY interested in the hardware information that you were able to figure out on the DN systems. There is very little documentation on the hardware around. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 19:54:00 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:54:00 +1200 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <200608142011.53707.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200608142011.53707.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 8/15/06, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 14 August 2006 19:43, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Why not use a pair of 62256s? 32Kx16 and ignore 4 bits. It'd even be > > easy to use a Dallas DS1210 or something like it to provide battery > > backup. > > I'd probably do something like what the SBC-6120 does... use some typical 486 > motherboard cache SRAM. Cheap, and relatively easy to find. :) > > You'd end up with one or two chips to do 32k x 12. 32Kx8 are easy to find as old cache RAM. They are not, however, low power, and would not be the best solution if you wanted to hang a battery off of them. OTOH, unless you are using paper tape software only, chances are you have a mass storage device and are booting into OS/8 and don't really need battery backup. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 14 19:59:31 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:59:31 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200608142011.53707.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <805f86d9f8d18eaf4c7135304afa97fd@neurotica.com> On Aug 14, 2006, at 8:54 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > Why not use a pair of 62256s? 32Kx16 and ignore 4 bits. It'd even >> be >> > easy to use a Dallas DS1210 or something like it to provide battery >> > backup. >> >> I'd probably do something like what the SBC-6120 does... use some >> typical 486 >> motherboard cache SRAM. Cheap, and relatively easy to find. :) >> >> You'd end up with one or two chips to do 32k x 12. > > 32Kx8 are easy to find as old cache RAM. They are not, however, low > power, and would not be the best solution if you wanted to hang a > battery off of them. OTOH, unless you are using paper tape software > only, chances are you have a mass storage device and are booting into > OS/8 and don't really need battery backup. True, but I think the idea there was to duplicate the functionality of core, i.e. the nonvolatility in this case. That said, though, I've not found 486 motherboard cache memory to be particularly easy to find. I did, however, buy a box of about 80 6264 chips on eBay a few months ago for fifteen bucks. And 62256s are still manufactured, as far as I'm aware. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From useddec at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 20:01:48 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:01:48 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <200608142011.53707.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200608142011.53707.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <624966d60608141801t3f59d573o99c9d70fc435b751@mail.gmail.com> I checked with my friend, and his coworker, who died a few years ago,did make some 32k mos boards for the 8E. He is going to check to see if he has any complete units, unpopulated boards, parts, and documentation for them.This will probably take a few days. Thanks, Paul On 8/14/06, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Monday 14 August 2006 19:43, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 8/15/06, woodelf wrote: > > > If you use 2167's ( 16k x 1 ) ram's > > > you can have 16k of memory ( 12 chips ) for > > > about $25 not counting glue logic and other stuff. > > > > Why not use a pair of 62256s? 32Kx16 and ignore 4 bits. It'd even be > > easy to use a Dallas DS1210 or something like it to provide battery > > backup. > > I'd probably do something like what the SBC-6120 does... use some typical > 486 > motherboard cache SRAM. Cheap, and relatively easy to find. :) > > You'd end up with one or two chips to do 32k x 12. > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon Aug 14 20:14:34 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C. H. Dickman) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:14:34 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Why not use a pair of 62256s? 32Kx16 and ignore 4 bits. It'd even be > easy to use a Dallas DS1210 or something like it to provide battery > backup. I had the same idea back in December of '98. I was just looking over my notes, which are not as clear as they should be, but I'll give a try at converting them to a schematic. Here is a summary though: Two 62256 low power SRAMs with 4 bits ignored. The MA bus is buffered and inverted with 74HCT14s. The MD bus transceiver consists of more 74HCT14s, 74LS240 tri-state buffers and 74LS01s OC drivers, all wired together as sort of a DEC005. In retrospect, the 74LS01s are probably a bit weak for this purpose and the 74HCT14s might not have the ideal threshold. The control logic is trivial. The SRAM /CS is effectively grounded. /OE is controlled by MD DIR L. /WE is INHIBIT H NANDed with /OE. Note that just like core, the memory is written after every read. I complicated things a bit because I wanted to have the 3 core fields installed and have the rest semiconductor memory so there are switches that de-assert /CS when accessing fields 0, 1, or 2. I also have a write protect for field 7 so there is a switch that prevents asserting /WE when accessing field 7. I used this for storing a boot loader. The battery backup circuit is bit complicated with lots of 1N914 diodes. I was worried about standby leakage. I even used a reed relay to interrupt /CS on loss of POWER OK H. It seems to have worked though because I am still using the same 3.6V lithium battery after almost 9 years. -chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Aug 14 20:17:56 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:17:56 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <805f86d9f8d18eaf4c7135304afa97fd@neurotica.com> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <805f86d9f8d18eaf4c7135304afa97fd@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608142117.56863.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 14 August 2006 20:59, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Aug 14, 2006, at 8:54 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> > Why not use a pair of 62256s? 32Kx16 and ignore 4 bits. It'd even > >> > >> be > >> > >> > easy to use a Dallas DS1210 or something like it to provide battery > >> > backup. > >> > >> I'd probably do something like what the SBC-6120 does... use some > >> typical 486 > >> motherboard cache SRAM. Cheap, and relatively easy to find. :) > >> > >> You'd end up with one or two chips to do 32k x 12. > > > > 32Kx8 are easy to find as old cache RAM. They are not, however, low > > power, and would not be the best solution if you wanted to hang a > > battery off of them. OTOH, unless you are using paper tape software > > only, chances are you have a mass storage device and are booting into > > OS/8 and don't really need battery backup. I thought the point was to use them in a real PDP-8 e/f/m, in which case the extra power would probably be a non-issue.. > True, but I think the idea there was to duplicate the functionality > of core, i.e. the nonvolatility in this case. > > That said, though, I've not found 486 motherboard cache memory to be > particularly easy to find. I did, however, buy a box of about 80 6264 > chips on eBay a few months ago for fifteen bucks. And 62256s are still > manufactured, as far as I'm aware. I guess I have a better supply of old 486 motherboards than you do, then. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From CaptnZilog at aol.com Mon Aug 14 21:00:18 2006 From: CaptnZilog at aol.com (CaptnZilog at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:00:18 EDT Subject: HP PARISC G30 Message-ID: <4c4.6dc62d5.321284b2@aol.com> One more to go, too heavy to ship, CT area as well (willing to drive if someone wants it), HP G30 server, PARISC. No Hard drive/OS. Hate to, but probably someone takes it or it'll hit a dumpster. Would rather find it a "good home" if someone is interested tho. _phufnagel at snet.net_ (mailto:phufnagel at snet.net) - Pete From segin2005 at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 21:11:59 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:11:59 -0400 Subject: OT: Funniest ./configure message ever Message-ID: <44E12D6F.9030509@gmail.com> checking for something to drink while compiling... err: no fridge found! (and yes, that's an actual message a ./configure script spat out at me. It's from the TiEmu 2.08 source package.) -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From rborsuk at colourfull.com Mon Aug 14 21:08:21 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:08:21 -0400 Subject: Apple IIgs and SGI Message-ID: <52FB18B8-AB02-4062-8299-10452F048771@colourfull.com> I have for free: 2 - apple IIgs's (Both units power up)(please don't ask what Revision) nothings included - Computers only 1 - SGI Origin I/O module (working system pull) Just pay shipping or pickup from 48047. IIgs weigh 14 lbs each (with packing)( or 28lbs together). Will ship the IIgs's via UPS and I/O module via USPS. Figure $8.50 Priority for the I/O module. First come first serve. Rob ps. Please USA only From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 14 21:25:42 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:25:42 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> C. H. Dickman wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> Why not use a pair of 62256s? 32Kx16 and ignore 4 bits. It'd even be >> easy to use a Dallas DS1210 or something like it to provide battery >> backup. > How about two Ramtron FM18L08's? Nonvolatile like core with no battery to die or leak. Would need level shifters to 3.3 volts and slightly different timing. Low power, and in DIP or SMT. I'm just tired of cleaning boards that had batteries that leaked all over them. Bob From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Mon Aug 14 21:30:51 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:30:51 -0700 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <44DF6ECD.10501@dakotacom.net> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> <200608130841060246.52D8AB11@192.168.42.129> <44DF6ECD.10501@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608141930510900.5A51F09D@192.168.42.129> Hi, Don, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 13-Aug-06 at 11:26 Don wrote: >So, there is nothing *active* in the cables? E.g., the >"mainframe" has all of the "adapters" inside (on the >appropriate cards). Does this pose problems if you >plug the wrong cable into a card (i.e. if cable D shell >pins X & Y expect to be tied to a USB mouse and suddenly >find EIA232 signal levels on those pins)? As far as I know, from a cursory examination, there is nothing active about the cables. They're just wire. As for plugging the "wrong" cable into a card, I'm not sure if that would pose a problem. I think Doc mentioned that each card is a 'universal' interface which is jumper or DIP-switch settable for the machine type it's dealing with. >So I can't (readily) use a Sun keyboard -- unless I add >an external adapter...? I'm pretty sure not, though I could be wrong. Look at the bright side: The IBM 'Clicker' keyboards are still pretty nice. > Amusing to think someone will spend $125+/node >just to live WITHOUT a keyboard! :-( Oh, you'd be surprised! Look at big companies with big pockets, like my former employer (Boeing). They would happily spend five figures on switching equipment to put Lord only knows how many systems in the data center into one or two KVM combos. Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From Watzman at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 14 21:33:21 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:33:21 -0400 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <200608141700.k7EH0S9o087480@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000a01c6c013$2d462080$6c00a8c0@barry> I think TIFF is a mistake; I'd use JPEG, at about 5K to 10K per square inch for color, or about 1/3 that for monochrome. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 14 20:46:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:46:01 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <200608142117.56863.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <805f86d9f8d18eaf4c7135304afa97fd@neurotica.com> <200608142117.56863.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200608141846010933.35B88242@10.0.0.252> On 8/14/2006 at 9:17 PM Patrick Finnegan wrote: >I guess I have a better supply of old 486 motherboards than you do, then. Dig into an old 33/56K external modem. Lots of good SRAM there. One model of the Hayes has a nice 32Kx16 0.3" DIP in it. There's SRAM in lots of places. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 14 21:57:42 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:57:42 -0700 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <000a01c6c013$2d462080$6c00a8c0@barry> References: <000a01c6c013$2d462080$6c00a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <200608141957420600.35FA2192@10.0.0.252> On 8/14/2006 at 10:33 PM Barry Watzman wrote: >I think TIFF is a mistake; I'd use JPEG, at about 5K to 10K per square >inch for color, or about 1/3 that for monochrome. But doesn't JPEG use lossy compression? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 14 21:58:53 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:58:53 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <200608141958530222.35FB356F@10.0.0.252> On 8/14/2006 at 7:25 PM Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >How about two Ramtron FM18L08's? Nonvolatile like core with no battery >to die or leak. Would need level shifters to 3.3 volts >and slightly different timing. Low power, and in DIP or SMT. I'm just >tired of cleaning boards that had batteries that leaked all over them. How long will a supercap keep that much SRAM alive? Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 22:11:43 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 23:11:43 -0400 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <200608141957420600.35FA2192@10.0.0.252> References: <000a01c6c013$2d462080$6c00a8c0@barry> <200608141957420600.35FA2192@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44E13B6F.9070308@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I think TIFF is a mistake; I'd use JPEG, at about 5K to 10K per square >> inch for color, or about 1/3 that for monochrome. > > But doesn't JPEG use lossy compression? Yes. And it blows thick industrial-waste chunks on any graphics that are non-photographic. Peace... Sridhar From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 14 22:30:15 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:30:15 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <200608141958530222.35FB356F@10.0.0.252> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> <200608141958530222.35FB356F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44E13FC7.9020705@sbcglobal.net> A supercap can keep low power SRAM alive for many months. The FRAM will stay unchanged for >10 years. Bob Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 8/14/2006 at 7:25 PM Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > > >>How about two Ramtron FM18L08's? Nonvolatile like core with no battery >>to die or leak. Would need level shifters to 3.3 volts >>and slightly different timing. Low power, and in DIP or SMT. I'm just >>tired of cleaning boards that had batteries that leaked all over them. >> >> > >How long will a supercap keep that much SRAM alive? > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > > > > From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 14 22:42:59 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:42:59 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <200608142011.53707.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200608142011.53707.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <44E142C3.2010508@dakotacom.net> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 14 August 2006 19:43, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On 8/15/06, woodelf wrote: >>> If you use 2167's ( 16k x 1 ) ram's >>> you can have 16k of memory ( 12 chips ) for >>> about $25 not counting glue logic and other stuff. >> Why not use a pair of 62256s? 32Kx16 and ignore 4 bits. It'd even be >> easy to use a Dallas DS1210 or something like it to provide battery >> backup. > > I'd probably do something like what the SBC-6120 does... use some typical 486 > motherboard cache SRAM. Cheap, and relatively easy to find. :) Outrageous overkill. What's that, 10ns memory? What's the 8's memory cycle time?? ;-) > You'd end up with one or two chips to do 32k x 12. > > Pat From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 14 22:44:02 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:44:02 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200608142011.53707.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <44E14302.5080405@dakotacom.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/15/06, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> On Monday 14 August 2006 19:43, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > Why not use a pair of 62256s? 32Kx16 and ignore 4 bits. It'd even be >> > easy to use a Dallas DS1210 or something like it to provide battery >> > backup. >> >> I'd probably do something like what the SBC-6120 does... use some >> typical 486 >> motherboard cache SRAM. Cheap, and relatively easy to find. :) >> >> You'd end up with one or two chips to do 32k x 12. > > 32Kx8 are easy to find as old cache RAM. They are not, however, low > power, and would not be the best solution if you wanted to hang a Depends on what grade device you use. I often use 32Kx8's as BBSRAM. > battery off of them. OTOH, unless you are using paper tape software > only, chances are you have a mass storage device and are booting into > OS/8 and don't really need battery backup. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 14 22:48:29 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:48:29 -0700 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <200608141957420600.35FA2192@10.0.0.252> References: <000a01c6c013$2d462080$6c00a8c0@barry> <200608141957420600.35FA2192@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44E1440D.5070201@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/14/2006 at 10:33 PM Barry Watzman wrote: > >> I think TIFF is a mistake; I'd use JPEG, at about 5K to 10K per square >> inch for color, or about 1/3 that for monochrome. > > But doesn't JPEG use lossy compression? Yes. You can adjust the "quality factor" but I think this would be A Bad Choice. Especially given my original comment that the documents are D-size reduced to B-size before printing (i.e., the text/lines are VERY fine and apt to disappear in the DCT application within the JPEG encoder.) From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 14 22:50:25 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:50:25 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <200608141958530222.35FB356F@10.0.0.252> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> <200608141958530222.35FB356F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44E14481.50204@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/14/2006 at 7:25 PM Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > >> How about two Ramtron FM18L08's? Nonvolatile like core with no battery >> to die or leak. Would need level shifters to 3.3 volts >> and slightly different timing. Low power, and in DIP or SMT. I'm just >> tired of cleaning boards that had batteries that leaked all over them. > > How long will a supercap keep that much SRAM alive? Why not use a *big* battery/cell... aren't we talking about a design that would end up WAY undersized? Even scaled would leave lots of real estate that you could install a conventional AA, 9V, etc. battery and forget about it "forever" From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 14 22:52:09 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:52:09 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <44E13FC7.9020705@sbcglobal.net> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> <200608141958530222.35FB356F@10.0.0.252> <44E13FC7.9020705@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <44E144E9.7070500@dakotacom.net> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > A supercap can keep low power SRAM alive for many months. The FRAM will > stay unchanged for >10 years. Cycle time? And, is it byte writeable?? And, does it have a durability specification? (e.g., even an '8 can write an address a few million times in a few seconds :> ) > Bob > > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 8/14/2006 at 7:25 PM Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >> >> >> >>> How about two Ramtron FM18L08's? Nonvolatile like core with no >>> battery to die or leak. Would need level shifters to 3.3 volts >>> and slightly different timing. Low power, and in DIP or SMT. I'm just >>> tired of cleaning boards that had batteries that leaked all over them. From recycler at swbell.net Mon Aug 14 22:52:26 2006 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick J. Jankowiak) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:52:26 -0500 Subject: TI 990 with disks, manuals, software In-Reply-To: <44CD404E.6050401@swbell.net> References: <44CD404E.6050401@swbell.net> Message-ID: <44E144FA.3060801@swbell.net> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: TI 990 system now up for bid. Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:44:35 -0500 From: Patrick J. Jankowiak To: cctalk at classiccmp.org, Patrick Jankowiak References: <44CD404E.6050401 at swbell.net> Hello, The previously mentioned TI 990/10 is now available for bid. The system was used for running the owner's substantial DEC computer resale business until July 30, 2006. The fresh decommission date and recent use indicates that this system is in prime shape and should be ready to use. I am assisting with this process because the owner of this large business does not have time to deal with this. All available details are here: http://www.bunkerofdoom.com/computers/ti990/ti990.html Sorry about the image quality, I will not drive from Dallas to Shreveport to take pictures of someone else's machines for sale. We tried to get someone to do a better job, the picture taker apparently does not know how to use a camera or process images. That's how it goes. I have been trying to get a decent set of images, but you know how it is when someone sends a crappy single picture and then asks "did the pictures work"? If better pictures arrive, then they will be posted and a notice made to this list but I would not hold my breath. As for the system, I have seen it running, when I was at the Dallas office about 10 years ago, and I can say it was nice and clean and in a computer room with lights a-flashin'. The company has since moved its operations to Shreveport. ////////////////////////////////////////////////////// The rules on this are simple. By submitting a bid, you agree to these rules. Before complaining about the overbearing and officious rules, please consider that I myself do not have alot of time to deal with this eiter, and this is being offered here, to the 31337, er.. elite! -and not to ebay or other places where thieves and pimps run free. Please read the rules if you intend to bid: Bidding period ends midnight, August 20, 2006. Bid amounts from any bidder will not be disclosed to other bidders. Bid amounts are for the computer system as shown and as described, and do not include any crating or shipping costs. You may bid more than once, in case you change your mind. The highest bid you submit is your true bid, please bid wisely. Bids are to be submitted via e-mail to: recycler at swbell.net - with the subject line "TI 990 BID". Sorry, no non-USA bids. Non-USA bidders must use a proxy located in the USA to bid and assume all responsibilities on their behalf. Payment is by money order or cashiers check and must be received no later than August 31, 2006. Buyer will pick up, or cause to be picked up, the system complete, from its location in Shreveport, LA. If making arrangements to pay when picking up (all pickup and other arrangements other than noted here are strictly after-the-bid period, and strictly between high bidder and system owner), payment is to be made in cash to avoid errors. Machines must be picked up before November 01, 2006. All representations regarding the system, no matter how, where, by whom delivered, or when made, from January 01, 2006 until the end of time, are made by the owner of the machines, who is solely responsible for their accuracy. Patrick Jankowiak is merely showing the machines on the WWW and taking the bids as a courtesy, and is not responsible for anything. All transactions including payment and pickup are responsibility of the high bidder and the system owner. Upon end of the bidding term, the system owner will be notified of the high bidder's name and e-mail, and the high bidder will be given the business phone number and name of the owner and must contact the system owner during business hours to arrange payment, pickup, and shipping logistics. Shipping, should the high bidder not wish to appear in person in Shreveport, Louisiana, to collect the equipment, can be arranged through a "pickup, pack, and ship" service. Such services may be found by internet searches. Purchasing some insurance and issuing verbose instructions to any such service entity would be considered mandatory by any prudent person. One shipping company which I have used before, with no lights or switches broken yet, is "craters and freighters" Dallas office. They will send handlers and a truck with equipment, carefully move and pack the equipment in the truck, then take it to their office and properly prepare it for shipment, and then put it on a big truck to be delivered to your general destination. This statement is by no means an endorsement of any particular service company. Craters & Freighters of Shreveport 3070 A Baird Rd. Shreveport, LA 71118 318-688-4410 866-688-4410 Fax: 318-688-4465 Shreveport at cratersandfreighters.com The high bidder may negotiate any kind of shipping arrangements they can, with the owner of the system. The owner may or may not be able to handle himself the shipment of this equipment. Therefore the suggestion of a professional moving service company is made. Changes to any of these rules may be made after the end of the bidding period by mutual agreement between the high bidder and the system owner. ///////////////////////////////////////// best regards, Patrick From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 14 22:59:01 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:59:01 -0600 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <44E14481.50204@dakotacom.net> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> <200608141958530222.35FB356F@10.0.0.252> <44E14481.50204@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E14685.1090903@jetnet.ab.ca> Don wrote: > Why not use a *big* battery/cell... aren't we talking > about a design that would end up WAY undersized? Even > scaled would leave lots of real estate that you could > install a conventional AA, 9V, etc. battery and forget > about it "forever" Batteries DIE... Core memory lives Forever ... They even used that in Dr Who as part of a plot line ... OK so Dr Who is not the most reliable Si-Fi show around :) Other than boot strap loaders I can't think where non - volatile memory on the 8 is needed. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Aug 14 23:08:38 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <805f86d9f8d18eaf4c7135304afa97fd@neurotica.com> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200608142011.53707.pat@computer-refuge.org> <805f86d9f8d18eaf4c7135304afa97fd@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Aug 2006, Dave McGuire wrote: > True, but I think the idea there was to duplicate the functionality > of core, i.e. the nonvolatility in this case. > > That said, though, I've not found 486 motherboard cache memory to be > particularly easy to find. I did, however, buy a box of about 80 6264 > chips on eBay a few months ago for fifteen bucks. And 62256s are still > manufactured, as far as I'm aware. I have a couple tubes of 62256s left over. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 14 23:09:39 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:09:39 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 semiconductor memory References: Message-ID: From: "Al Kossow" > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/msc/MSC3102_PDP8semiMem.pdf That one is much clearer, though I cannot find the logic in it (if any) that inhibits reads when using the bootstrap cards. Thanks! Vince From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 14 23:14:02 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:14:02 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net><44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net><44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" > On 8/15/06, woodelf wrote: > > If you use 2167's ( 16k x 1 ) ram's > > you can have 16k of memory ( 12 chips ) for > > about $25 not counting glue logic and other stuff. > > Why not use a pair of 62256s? 32Kx16 and ignore 4 bits. It'd even be > easy to use a Dallas DS1210 or something like it to provide battery > backup. That's just what I had in mind :-). (I was thinking to design for the SRAM and let people substitute the NVRAM if they wanted.) Vince From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 14 23:24:25 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:24:25 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <44E14481.50204@dakotacom.net> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> <200608141958530222.35FB356F@10.0.0.252> <44E14481.50204@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608142124250884.364986B2@10.0.0.252> On 8/14/2006 at 8:50 PM Don wrote: >Why not use a *big* battery/cell... aren't we talking >about a design that would end up WAY undersized? Even >scaled would leave lots of real estate that you could >install a conventional AA, 9V, etc. battery and forget >about it "forever" I have always HATED the idea of a battery where one wasn't absolutely needed. They have a nasty tendency to go south when you can least afford it--and they can leak or explode. Or, in the case of Dell, catch fire: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060815/tc_nm/dell_batteries_dc_4 Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 23:25:05 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 04:25:05 +0000 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <44E14685.1090903@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> <200608141958530222.35FB356F@10.0.0.252> <44E14481.50204@dakotacom.net> <44E14685.1090903@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 8/15/06, woodelf wrote: > Don wrote: > > Why not use a *big* battery/cell... aren't we talking > > about a design that would end up WAY undersized? Even > > scaled would leave lots of real estate that you could > > install a conventional AA, 9V, etc. battery and forget > > about it "forever" One could dangle an external battery pack off the board, but given board-to-board clearances, only a lithium coin cell is likely to fit _on_ the board. > Other than boot strap loaders I can't think where > non - volatile memory on the 8 is needed. It's a nice demonstration of my -8/L to be running a FOCAL program, say, and walk up and turn the key, wait, then turn the key back and the machine is doing exactly what it was doing before the power was cut off. In practical usage, though, I agree - core on an -8/L saves having to toggle in the RIM loader every time. For any of my OMNIBUS machines, except for quickie diagnostics, I don't do much toggling - they have ROM bootstraps. -ethan From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 14 23:27:57 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:27:57 -0700 Subject: KVM's In-Reply-To: <200608141930510900.5A51F09D@192.168.42.129> References: <44DE5AAB.90300@dakotacom.net> <200608130841060246.52D8AB11@192.168.42.129> <44DF6ECD.10501@dakotacom.net> <200608141930510900.5A51F09D@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <44E14D4D.7040107@dakotacom.net> Bruce Lane wrote: > On 13-Aug-06 at 11:26 Don wrote: > >> So, there is nothing *active* in the cables? E.g., the >> "mainframe" has all of the "adapters" inside (on the >> appropriate cards). Does this pose problems if you >> plug the wrong cable into a card (i.e. if cable D shell >> pins X & Y expect to be tied to a USB mouse and suddenly >> find EIA232 signal levels on those pins)? > > As far as I know, from a cursory examination, there is nothing > active about the cables. They're just wire. > > As for plugging the "wrong" cable into a card, I'm not sure > if that would pose a problem. I think Doc mentioned that each > card is a 'universal' interface which is jumper or DIP-switch > settable for the machine type it's dealing with. So, if you strapped the "mouse pins" for USB and then erroneously plugged a cable into the "universal" D connector that had a SERIAL mouse attached...? I.e. are there any easy/mindless ways to toast things? >> So I can't (readily) use a Sun keyboard -- unless I add >> an external adapter...? > > I'm pretty sure not, though I could be wrong. Look at the > bright side: The IBM 'Clicker' keyboards are still pretty nice. >> Amusing to think someone will spend $125+/node >> just to live WITHOUT a keyboard! :-( > > Oh, you'd be surprised! Look at big companies with big pockets, > like my former employer (Boeing). They would happily spend five > figures on switching equipment to put Lord only knows how many > systems in the data center into one or two KVM combos. Oh, I've seen many server farms -- but usually they don't bother with consoles and rely on serial consoles instead (or other "management" functionality over network). From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 23:27:34 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 04:27:34 +0000 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On 8/15/06, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> Why not use a pair of 62256s? 32Kx16 and ignore 4 bits. It'd even be > >> easy to use a Dallas DS1210 or something like it to provide battery > >> backup. > > How about two Ramtron FM18L08's? Nonvolatile like core with no battery > to die or leak. Would need level shifters to 3.3 volts > and slightly different timing. Low power, and in DIP or SMT. Don't FRAMs have a maximum write count? Other than that, they are an excellent idea (and pin-compatible with 62256s, IIRC). The level shifters, etc., are a bit of a hassle, though. Old-fashioned SRAM is cheap and plentiful and TTL-friendly. > I'm just tired of cleaning boards that had batteries that leaked all over them. Understandable. I have at least one dead Amiga from a leaky NiCd. :-( I've never seen Li Coin Cells leak, though. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 23:32:01 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 04:32:01 +0000 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <44E142C3.2010508@dakotacom.net> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200608142011.53707.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44E142C3.2010508@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: On 8/15/06, Don wrote: > Outrageous overkill. What's that, 10ns memory? What's the 8's > memory cycle time?? ;-) The machine cycle time for an -8/e is 1.2uS. ISTR that a core read cycle on an MM8E (Omnibus core stack), including replacing the old value after the read destroys it, is on the order of 950ns, but that's from memory, not from looking it up. In any case, *any* SRAM, even stuff from the mid-1970s is fast enough. As for overkill, it's not about memory access time, it's about modern availability and package count - if you want to use a 32Kx8 SRAM, your choices are, essentially, uber-fast cache RAM in a skinny DIP or still-too-fast CMOS SRAM (62256) in a wide DIP form factor. One could even wire up a socket with 3 rows of pins so the user could choose skinny or wide - the RAMs have, essentially, the same pinout. -ethan From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 14 23:35:31 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:35:31 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <200608142124250884.364986B2@10.0.0.252> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> <200608141958530222.35FB356F@10.0.0.252> <44E14481.50204@dakotacom.net> <200608142124250884.364986B2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44E14F13.3030607@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/14/2006 at 8:50 PM Don wrote: > >> Why not use a *big* battery/cell... aren't we talking >> about a design that would end up WAY undersized? Even >> scaled would leave lots of real estate that you could >> install a conventional AA, 9V, etc. battery and forget >> about it "forever" > > I have always HATED the idea of a battery where one wasn't absolutely > needed. They have a nasty tendency to go south when you can least afford > it--and they can leak or explode. That's why using a *regular* battery/cell instead of something "designed for battery backup" (e.g., Li coin cells, etc.). I try to design with batteries tht users can purchase at their own grocery store, etc. (having replaced my share of overpriced batteries in products that *I* have purchased). Unless you can make a battery application last A VERY LONG TIME (not just a LONG time since those are the cases where you get screwed because you have forgotten about the battery that you replaced 1 or 2 years ago... *but*, if you replaced it *10* years ago you don't mind -- as much -- when it dies after that long of a service life) it will frustrate users. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 14 23:37:48 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:37:48 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <44E144E9.7070500@dakotacom.net> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> <200608141958530222.35FB356F@10.0.0.252> <44E13FC7.9020705@sbcglobal.net> <44E144E9.7070500@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E14F9C.4080102@sbcglobal.net> Don wrote: > Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > >> A supercap can keep low power SRAM alive for many months. The FRAM >> will stay unchanged for >10 years. > > > Cycle time? And, is it byte writeable?? And, does it have > a durability specification? (e.g., even an '8 can write > an address a few million times in a few seconds :> ) It looks just like an SRAM but has slightly different timing. It's not FLASH. Check it out at: http://www.ramtron.com/doc/Products/Nonvolatile/Detail.asp?ID=13&gr=6 Bob From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 23:38:47 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 04:38:47 +0000 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <200608142117.56863.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <805f86d9f8d18eaf4c7135304afa97fd@neurotica.com> <200608142117.56863.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 8/15/06, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Aug 14, 2006, at 8:54 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >> > Why not use a pair of 62256s? 32Kx16 and ignore 4 bits. It'd even > > >> > be easy to use a Dallas DS1210 or something like it to provide battery > > >> > backup. > > > > > > 32Kx8 are easy to find as old cache RAM. They are not, however, low > > > power, and would not be the best solution if you wanted to hang a > > > battery off of them. > > I thought the point was to use them in a real PDP-8 e/f/m, in which case the > extra power would probably be a non-issue.. The extra power has to do with battery life, not power-on consumption. The amount of power that two cache SRAMs and some buffer chips takes up is utterly invisible compared to eight set of 4K core stacks (but you need two OMNIBUS chassis to hold that many cards; a more typical installation is four 8K stacks or a couple of third-party 16K stacks). -ethan From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 14 23:45:57 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:45:57 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <200608142011.53707.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44E142C3.2010508@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E15185.70205@dakotacom.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/15/06, Don wrote: >> Outrageous overkill. What's that, 10ns memory? What's the 8's >> memory cycle time?? ;-) > > The machine cycle time for an -8/e is 1.2uS. ISTR that a core read > cycle on an MM8E (Omnibus core stack), including replacing the old > value after the read destroys it, is on the order of 950ns, but that's > from memory, not from looking it up. In any case, *any* SRAM, even > stuff from the mid-1970s is fast enough. As for overkill, it's not > about memory access time, it's about modern availability and package > count - if you want to use a 32Kx8 SRAM, your choices are, > essentially, uber-fast cache RAM in a skinny DIP or still-too-fast > CMOS SRAM (62256) in a wide DIP form factor. But cache RAM is power hungry and has little practical chance of being converted to BBSRAM > One could even wire up a socket with 3 rows of pins so the user could > choose skinny or wide - the RAMs have, essentially, the same pinout. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 23:45:40 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 04:45:40 +0000 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> Message-ID: On 8/15/06, C. H. Dickman wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Why not use a pair of 62256s? 32Kx16 and ignore 4 bits. It'd even be > > easy to use a Dallas DS1210 or something like it to provide battery > > backup. > > I had the same idea back in December of '98. > > I was just looking over my notes, which are not as clear as they should > be, but I'll give a try at converting them to a schematic. Here is a > summary though: > > Two 62256 low power SRAMs with 4 bits ignored. The MA bus is buffered > and inverted with 74HCT14s. The MD bus transceiver consists of more > 74HCT14s, 74LS240 tri-state buffers and 74LS01s OC drivers, all wired > together as sort of a DEC005. OK. Is a DEC005 OMNIBUS-friendly? We used them on our Qbus COMBOARD, so that's the context I think of them in. > In retrospect, the 74LS01s are probably a bit weak for this purpose and > the 74HCT14s might not have the ideal threshold. Perhaps. Sorted and rebadged TTL 7401s _are_ OMNIBUS-friendly, aren't they? > The control logic is trivial. The SRAM /CS is effectively grounded. /OE > is controlled by MD DIR L. /WE is INHIBIT H NANDed with /OE. Note that > just like core, the memory is written after every read. OK... I thought the core stack handled re-writes, not the CPU... perhaps I don't understand that part of the machine (never having had to fiddle with it in depth). > I complicated things a bit because I wanted to have the 3 core fields > installed and have the rest semiconductor memory so there are switches > that de-assert /CS when accessing fields 0, 1, or 2. I also have a write > protect for field 7 so there is a switch that prevents asserting /WE > when accessing field 7. I used this for storing a boot loader. That's a reasonable feature. No reason to throw out real core if it can be used in concert with a MOS board. > The battery backup circuit is bit complicated with lots of 1N914 diodes. > I was worried about standby leakage. I even used a reed relay to > interrupt /CS on loss of POWER OK H. It seems to have worked though > because I am still using the same 3.6V lithium battery after almost 9 years. The Dallas DS1210 handles all of that in an 8-pin DIP, including blocking /CS on power-down. It's a trivial circuit to implement... just wedge the DS1210 between Vcc coming onto the board and the SRAM, attach battery power to the DS1210. The only other attachment is the /CS pass-through, IIRC. One can even design in the DS1210 and install power and /CS jumpers across the socket if you don't happen to have the chip handy (or don't care about BBU). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 14 23:48:36 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 04:48:36 +0000 Subject: PDP-8 semiconductor memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/15/06, vrs wrote: > From: "Al Kossow" > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/msc/MSC3102_PDP8semiMem.pdf > > That one is much clearer, though I cannot find the logic in it > (if any) that inhibits reads when using the bootstrap cards. My recollection is that PDP-8 bootstraps emulate a front-panel. They aren't memory mapped, so you don't inhibit existing memory. -ethan From vrs at msn.com Tue Aug 15 00:14:23 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:14:23 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> <200608141958530222.35FB356F@10.0.0.252><44E14481.50204@dakotacom.net> <44E14685.1090903@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: "woodelf" > Other than boot strap loaders I can't think where > non - volatile memory on the 8 is needed. It is pretty much an essential feature if you don't have block-replaceable media of some kind to boot from. Maybe everyone is hiding block-replaceable media in their terminal (PC) these days? I you have a working block device and boot card, then it is just a luxury :-). Vince From vrs at msn.com Tue Aug 15 00:15:56 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:15:56 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca><200608142011.53707.pat@computer-refuge.org><44E142C3.2010508@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" > One could even wire up a socket with 3 rows of pins so the user could > choose skinny or wide - the RAMs have, essentially, the same pinout. That's a cool idea :-). Vince From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Aug 15 00:17:58 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 01:17:58 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <200608142117.56863.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200608150117.58538.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 15 August 2006 00:38, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/15/06, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > On Aug 14, 2006, at 8:54 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > >> > Why not use a pair of 62256s? 32Kx16 and ignore 4 bits. It'd > > > >> > even be easy to use a Dallas DS1210 or something like it to > > > >> > provide battery backup. > > > > > > > > 32Kx8 are easy to find as old cache RAM. They are not, however, low > > > > power, and would not be the best solution if you wanted to hang a > > > > battery off of them. > > > > I thought the point was to use them in a real PDP-8 e/f/m, in which case > > the extra power would probably be a non-issue.. > > The extra power has to do with battery life, not power-on consumption. > The amount of power that two cache SRAMs and some buffer chips takes > up is utterly invisible compared to eight set of 4K core stacks (but > you need two OMNIBUS chassis to hold that many cards; a more typical > installation is four 8K stacks or a couple of third-party 16K stacks). Yeah, I realized that after re-reading your message. :) Still, if you're just looking for memory, and don't care about battery backup (like MOS memory replacement), I think that cache SRAM is a reasonable choice. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 15 00:19:08 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:19:08 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <44E14F13.3030607@dakotacom.net> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> <200608141958530222.35FB356F@10.0.0.252> <44E14481.50204@dakotacom.net> <200608142124250884.364986B2@10.0.0.252> <44E14F13.3030607@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608142219080269.367B9C60@10.0.0.252> On 8/14/2006 at 9:35 PM Don wrote: > >Unless you can make a battery application last A VERY LONG TIME >(not just a LONG time since those are the cases where you get >screwed because you have forgotten about the battery that >you replaced 1 or 2 years ago... *but*, if you replaced it >*10* years ago you don't mind -- as much -- when it dies >after that long of a service life) it will frustrate users. Well, consider the Dallas battery-inside-the-chip clock-calendar circuits. 7 years sounded like forever--and it may well have been to the original owners of the equipment. But now, they're starting to fade and finding replacements can be a bit of a hassle. In 20 years, it'll probably be nearly impossible. For this particular application, any keep-alive power source needs only to last as long the longest power-off interval. If, as Don, says a supercap will last several months, that should be good enough--and it's a permanent solution. Heck, I wonder if you could trickle-charge the battery with ambient light via a solar cell. That should extend the keep-alive period some. I just don't like chemical reactions in my equipment--it's sort of like bird's nest soup. It might taste good, but I don't like the idea of eating bird spit.. Cheers, Chuck. From vrs at msn.com Tue Aug 15 00:22:38 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:22:38 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 semiconductor memory References: Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" > On 8/15/06, vrs wrote: > > That one is much clearer, though I cannot find the logic in it > > (if any) that inhibits reads when using the bootstrap cards. > > My recollection is that PDP-8 bootstraps emulate a front-panel. They > aren't memory mapped, so you don't inhibit existing memory. You are right, at least about the most common one. I don't know about the rope ROM and third party cards, but I guess I can probably ignore that, at least for now. Vince From vrs at msn.com Tue Aug 15 00:29:37 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:29:37 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net><44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net><44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca><44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" > OK. Is a DEC005 OMNIBUS-friendly? We used them on our Qbus COMBOARD, > so that's the context I think of them in. Interesting question, even though I'd never design in a DEC005. They are made of even more unobtainium than the regular tranceivers! Vince From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 15 00:40:13 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 23:40:13 -0600 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> <200608141958530222.35FB356F@10.0.0.252><44E14481.50204@dakotacom.net> <44E14685.1090903@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44E15E3D.5020501@jetnet.ab.ca> vrs wrote: > It is pretty much an essential feature if you don't have > block-replaceable media of some kind to boot from. Maybe > everyone is hiding block-replaceable media in their terminal > (PC) these days? Yep!!! I will be for the moment.If I can get a IDE drive working when I get my SBC6120 (PDP 8/e Clone )built I plan to use a real terminal and dump the Pee-Cee. I just my PC for email, Adult Games,and some surfing. > I you have a working block device and boot card, then it is > just a luxury :-). It still amazes me what they did with 4k of memory on the 8's and 8Kb on 16 bit machines. > Vince > From ohh at drizzle.com Tue Aug 15 00:44:10 2006 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <44E14F13.3030607@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: > > I have always HATED the idea of a battery where one wasn't absolutely > > needed. They have a nasty tendency to go south when you can least afford > > it--and they can leak or explode. > > That's why using a *regular* battery/cell instead of something > "designed for battery backup" (e.g., Li coin cells, etc.). [...] > Unless you can make a battery application last A VERY LONG TIME > (not just a LONG time since those are the cases where you get > screwed because you have forgotten about the battery that > you replaced 1 or 2 years ago... *but*, if you replaced it > *10* years ago you don't mind -- as much -- when it dies > after that long of a service life) it will frustrate users. Er, I don't think it's the longevity of the battery _power_ which is at issue here; it's the physical longevity of the battery itself. I have mini-Maglites in my toolkit - three of 'em, and they all get use; I work in the dark a great deal, but that's another story * - and recently had the unpleasant surprise of having one of the "regular" batteries corrode and die (and the batteries had been replaced less than a month earlier). This did an _astonishingly_ effective job of destroying the interior of the Maglite as well, the acids eating away the Maglite's shell in a way I literally didn't think was possible. Defective battery? Some other problem? We may never know. Whatever the cause, I'd hate to even _contemplate_ the idea of that possibly happening right next to a DEC backplane. -O.- * - http://flyingmoose.org/stage/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 14 10:42:26 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:42:26 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: <0J3Z0012EVJB2H43@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory > From: "vrs" > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 00:04:38 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> Even schematics would help. In the end I may do my own as >> a pair of 61256s will certainly fit the bill and barely fill >> a corner of a board. > >I looked at doing one of these, but got kind of lost about how >the timing signals are used. I looked at the MOS RAM for the 8/A, >but there's all this cruft for refresh in there, some stuff about >suppressing access during ROM access, etc. And then it looks like >the memory timing signals are derived somehow from the memory >refresh stuff?? > >Is there a nice place where the Omnibus memory interface control >signals are explained somewhere? Small Computer Handbook 1973 is a good staring point. A complete prinset also has details like timing. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 14 13:05:48 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:05:48 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: <0J4000D29267YI01@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory > From: Gerold Pauler > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:11:48 +0200 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >If you are able to read german text, then the documentation of a 32KW >dynamic memory modul >from mico for the pdp8/e/f/m and /a may give some hints. >I've made a scan available under >http://pdp8.de/download/mico-mem.pdf Thanks, While I do not speak German it is still and engineering document so it's form and content are known. Makes working with foreign languages easier. It will be of some help along with the DEC docs I have. Allison > >- Gerold > >C H Dickman wrote: > >> vrs wrote: >> >>> I looked at doing one of these, but got kind of lost about how the >>> timing signals are used. I looked at the MOS RAM for the 8/A, but >>> there's all this cruft for refresh in there, some stuff about >>> suppressing access during ROM access, etc. And then it looks like >>> the memory timing signals are derived somehow from the memory refresh >>> stuff?? >>> >>> Is there a nice place where the Omnibus memory interface control >>> signals are explained somewhere? >>> >> >> I did a semiconductor memory design for the OMNIBUS several years ago. >> It was for an -8/e and 32kW using two SRAMs. I never got to >> documenting it outside of my notebook, but if there is enough >> interest, I could do some schematics. It is battery backed, so its >> pretty much equivalent to the core I was replacing. >> >> The Small Computer Handbook, the maintenance manuals and timing >> diagrams from the processor print sets had enough information for me. >> >> -chuck > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 14 20:22:39 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:22:39 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: <0J400047PME6BOOC@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:54:00 +1200 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 8/15/06, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> On Monday 14 August 2006 19:43, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > Why not use a pair of 62256s? 32Kx16 and ignore 4 bits. It'd even be >> > easy to use a Dallas DS1210 or something like it to provide battery >> > backup. >> >> I'd probably do something like what the SBC-6120 does... use some typical 486 >> motherboard cache SRAM. Cheap, and relatively easy to find. :) >> >> You'd end up with one or two chips to do 32k x 12. > >32Kx8 are easy to find as old cache RAM. They are not, however, low >power, and would not be the best solution if you wanted to hang a >battery off of them. I have a bag of them I salvaged from old 386 and 486s and most are either low power or CMOS. I've bumped into a few of the older NMOS parts that are not low power but they do gow down in power when deselected. Nothing like the old 2114 or 2147 or 2167. However power it not a prime consideration as the lamps on the FP are a big load compared to most everthing else. For me it's board space, heat and a one card solution. Allison >OTOH, unless you are using paper tape software >only, chances are you have a mass storage device and are booting into >OS/8 and don't really need battery backup. > >-ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 14 15:50:12 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 16:50:12 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: <0J4000G539S62KT4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory > From: "Jay West" > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:41:55 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Chuck wrote... >> I did a semiconductor memory design for the OMNIBUS several years ago. It >> was for an -8/e and 32kW using two SRAMs. I never got to documenting it >> outside of my notebook, but if there is enough interest, I could do some >> schematics. It is battery backed, so its pretty much equivalent to the >> core I was replacing. > >Maybe it was your diagram I got years ago. Someone did a nice 32kw board for >the 8e using two 2114's I think it was. I have the schematics somewhere Must have been two 61256. the 2114 is a 1kx4 memory and three would be needed to create a word wide memory. I know this as I made a 3k ram for a 6100 system. The 61256 is 32kx8, two would be 32kx16, throw away 4 bits and you have a 32k word memory cheap. >still. The only reason I didn't build it right away was because at the time >I got them, the person said "these schematics aren't quite final, there may >have been some tweaking afterwards that didn't make it to the schematic" so >I just sat on them. > >A known working design - I'd want to build that in a heartbeat :) > >Jay West I figured before I embark as it will be winter before I WWrap it (too warm now) I'd check and see if someone else attacked the problem. Allison From phufnagel at snet.net Mon Aug 14 18:03:43 2006 From: phufnagel at snet.net (Peter Hufnagel) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:03:43 -0400 Subject: Old Apollo 68K systems Message-ID: <44E1014F.40401@snet.net> Just figured I'd post this out here... I have a collection of old Apollo DN systems (3000,3010,3500,4000,4500,5500 I think sums it up) I did a little work on porting NetBSD to and then have just never had the time to pursue. Might be willing to part with them to someone in the New England area, since I have monitors with some of them, and OS tapes, spare hard drives, etc. Anyone interested, feel free to contact me... really not up for shipping monitors around, but for someone fairly local with interest I might be willing to do a road trip. -- Pete From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 14 18:37:25 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 19:37:25 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44E10935.507@bellatlantic.net> woodelf wrote: > vrs wrote: > If you use 2167's ( 16k x 1 ) ram's > you can have 16k of memory ( 12 chips ) for > about $25 not counting glue logic and other stuff. > Does anybody make a wire-wrap proto-type board for the > PDP-8/e slots? Yes, but 2 61256s reduce the memory chip count to two (2) and they are available in CMOS cutting the heatload. I have a few quad width protoboards that are PDP-11 (not sure if unibus or Qbus) but with strategic cuts for power and ground they work for omnibus. Allison > >> Thanks -- unfortunately that mostly documents the parts I already >> understood >> :-). > From Jason.Armistead at otis.com Tue Aug 15 01:50:14 2006 From: Jason.Armistead at otis.com (Armistead, Jason) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 02:50:14 -0400 Subject: The TIFF versus JPG debate Message-ID: My $0.02 worth on the abovementioned subject: TIFF has lots of ways data can be encoded within the basic TIFF file structure, including LZW, CCITT G3 and CCITT G4 formats. If anyone is interested, get a good look at the TIFF V6 specification, although the links on the www.libtiff.org site seem to be broken and Adobe has now put their copy of the TIFF specification behind a whole lot of "developer registration required" pages you need to get through first. See also http://www.awaresystems.be/imaging/tiff/tifftags/compression.html which describes the TIFF tags relating to compression of image data. >From where I sit, we've used TIFF with CCITT G42D (fax) compression on bitonal (black and white only) image documents for 150,000 engineering drawings with excellent results. This is a totally lossless compression format (what you get back is exactly what you put in) specifically designed to do a good job with what you'd find on pages of drawings or of text. If you don't need colour or greyscale, then CCITT G42D is hard to beat. Within the US military, the CALS (Computer-aided Acquisition and Logistics Support) Type 1 specification for bitonal images basically wraps the compressed CCITT G42D data inside a slightly different wrapper to TIFF - CALS is a fixed length text header, and TIFF is a lot of binary stuff. It's easy to convert between the two formats when you know how. What I like about TIFF coupled with CCITT G42D compression most is (a) it's lossless, (b) supports multi-page documents, (c) it's an open specification with (d) an open source library to manipulate the files (LIBTIFF) and (e) it is widely supported with hundreds of viewers available (on Windows, the free Imaging component works fine for most people). I can also easily transform my TIFF data into Postscript (btw Level 2 Postscript more or less supports CCITT G42D compression too), PCL or even into PDF with not too much drama. In comparison, PDF is locked in more or less to Adobe's Acrobat Reader (yes, I know there's always Ghostscript / GSView and friends ! ), and not as easy to manipulate - I call it more of a nearly "final form" document format than TIFF. JPEG is not suitable because it was a lossy format targeted at colour images more than black and white, and it wasn't multi-page. I believe the JPEG 2000 specification has improved on some of these such as providing a lossless compression option, and can handle multi pages. I don't know if software to support all these features is (a) cheap or (b) available. For my money, I'm sticking with TIFF Cheers Jason From lists at groll.co.za Tue Aug 15 04:07:21 2006 From: lists at groll.co.za (Jonathan Groll) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:07:21 +0200 Subject: LCD question In-Reply-To: <200608141725.43633.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608142103.k7EL3Qeu020307@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200608141725.43633.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20060815090720.GA30789@groll.co.za> On Mon, Aug 14, 2006 at 05:25:43PM -0400, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 14 August 2006 05:03 pm, Brad Parker wrote: > > "Robert Feldman" wrote: > > >>From: "Barry Watzman" > > >>Subject: Re: LCD question > > > > > > > > > > > >>The chances of being able to successfully use an LCD panel from a laptop > > >>for any other purpose are near zero. > > > > ah, beg to differ. > > > > I've used a few. You have to know something about lcd panels and you > > need an lcd panel controller which matches the 'style' of lcd, but it > > can be done and it's not hard. > > > > most vga style tft panels are pretty close in spec and can be driven off > > 3.3v or 5v ttl. > > I started the thread with a question about the backlighting (?) connector on a > small LCD unit, probably a 2x16 or 2x20 or similar that I pulled out of some > old computer, but this is of some interest to me as well. I have, in > storage, a couple or three old 486 laptops, and wouldn't mind at all > getting some use out of that hardware. One screen is very obviously trashed > but that still leaves two more to play with and three sets of electronics to > try and salvage any more part out of. So if there's something that can be > done with those I'd sure like to hear about it. > > If this is too OT for here, we can take it to my list at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/roys-tech-chat/ Please don't take this discussion off list, I'm sure there are plenty of us on this list with an old 486 laptop collection that needs to be "used". I myself had 9x 486 laptops (picked up for about R400=$60), and would love to find a real use for the remaining 4... Ciao, Jonathan. From jvdg at sparcpark.net Tue Aug 15 07:01:11 2006 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:01:11 +0300 Subject: Mac keyboards In-Reply-To: <44D81350.8030606@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: On 8/8/06 7:30 AM, Don wrote: > I have an "Apple Adjustable Keyboard" -- a wacky keyboard that splits in the > center ("ergonomic"?) and has an auxillary "function/numeric" keyboard that > sits alongside it (sheesh! What a wacky arrangement -- how to use up the most > desktop space with the least added functionality! :< ) > > Needless to say, I am not happy with it. What should I be looking for as an > alternative? Any ADB keyboard. I'll gladly send you one if you send me that adjustable one. ,xtG .tsooJ -- There are only two things that are infinite: The universe and human stupidity. Although I'm not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein -- Joost van de Griek From jvdg at sparcpark.net Tue Aug 15 07:00:41 2006 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:00:41 +0300 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: <44DB367D.2030804@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: On 8/10/06 4:37 PM, Don wrote: >> There is even a speech recognition software, so grab you Newt and say >> 'Comuter, give me the news channel'. Not to mention the awsome sound programm >> wich can even be made to speak. > > Well, you can "speak" with a one-bit D/AC running at ~20Ks/s so that's not > particularly impressive :> (e.g., old pinball machines generated speech by > bit-banging with a 1MHz 680x). But did they do text-to-speech? You'll want to go here: And here: ,xtG .tsooJ -- I used to eat a lot of natural foods until I learned that most people die of natural causes. -- Joost van de Griek From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 15 07:21:16 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:21:16 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: <0J41003CWGVPRRG2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory > From: Don > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:50:25 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 8/14/2006 at 7:25 PM Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >> >>> How about two Ramtron FM18L08's? Nonvolatile like core with no battery >>> to die or leak. Would need level shifters to 3.3 volts >>> and slightly different timing. Low power, and in DIP or SMT. I'm just >>> tired of cleaning boards that had batteries that leaked all over them. >> >> How long will a supercap keep that much SRAM alive? > >Why not use a *big* battery/cell... aren't we talking >about a design that would end up WAY undersized? Even >scaled would leave lots of real estate that you could >install a conventional AA, 9V, etc. battery and forget >about it "forever" Because most batteries have shelf life! The average battery dies in a few years from just sitting. The LI cells are designed for very long life. I have a few sub-C sized LI cells that are over 15 years old and going strong. FYI: for how I care to use the semiconductor ram I could care less about volitility. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 15 07:26:29 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:26:29 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: <0J41006HNH4E6MP6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 22:19:08 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 8/14/2006 at 9:35 PM Don wrote: > >> >>Unless you can make a battery application last A VERY LONG TIME >>(not just a LONG time since those are the cases where you get >>screwed because you have forgotten about the battery that >>you replaced 1 or 2 years ago... *but*, if you replaced it >>*10* years ago you don't mind -- as much -- when it dies >>after that long of a service life) it will frustrate users. > >Well, consider the Dallas battery-inside-the-chip clock-calendar circuits. >7 years sounded like forever--and it may well have been to the original >owners of the equipment. But now, they're starting to fade and finding >replacements can be a bit of a hassle. In 20 years, it'll probably be >nearly impossible. I shave off the top of the DS1287s and replace the cell. It's easy to find the battery on those as it's magnetic! >For this particular application, any keep-alive power source needs only to >last as long the longest power-off interval. If, as Don, says a supercap >will last several months, that should be good enough--and it's a permanent >solution. Heck, I wonder if you could trickle-charge the battery with >ambient light via a solar cell. That should extend the keep-alive period >some. > >I just don't like chemical reactions in my equipment--it's sort of like >bird's nest soup. It might taste good, but I don't like the idea of eating >bird spit.. > Then place the battery at the ends of two wires remote from where their failure can do harm. Experience is a good adaquately sized Li cell is by far the easiest solution when used with the Dallas ram controller chips. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 15 07:29:25 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:29:25 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: <0J4100FFAH9B55M2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory > From: Don > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 21:45:57 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On 8/15/06, Don wrote: >>> Outrageous overkill. What's that, 10ns memory? What's the 8's >>> memory cycle time?? ;-) >> >> The machine cycle time for an -8/e is 1.2uS. ISTR that a core read >> cycle on an MM8E (Omnibus core stack), including replacing the old >> value after the read destroys it, is on the order of 950ns, but that's >> from memory, not from looking it up. In any case, *any* SRAM, even >> stuff from the mid-1970s is fast enough. As for overkill, it's not >> about memory access time, it's about modern availability and package >> count - if you want to use a 32Kx8 SRAM, your choices are, >> essentially, uber-fast cache RAM in a skinny DIP or still-too-fast >> CMOS SRAM (62256) in a wide DIP form factor. > >But cache RAM is power hungry and has little practical chance >of being converted to BBSRAM Most are not, few if any of mine are not. NOTE: many of those rams are CMOS and at high cycle rates the power needed is impressive but in standby and low cycle rates the power drops significantly! Often they are spec'd at they fastest cycle time for power use as thats how PCs used them. Allison >> One could even wire up a socket with 3 rows of pins so the user could >> choose skinny or wide - the RAMs have, essentially, the same pinout. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 15 07:33:37 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:33:37 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: <0J410065VHGA6J37@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory > From: Dave McGuire > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:59:31 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >On Aug 14, 2006, at 8:54 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> > Why not use a pair of 62256s? 32Kx16 and ignore 4 bits. It'd even >>> be >>> > easy to use a Dallas DS1210 or something like it to provide battery >>> > backup. >>> >>> I'd probably do something like what the SBC-6120 does... use some >>> typical 486 >>> motherboard cache SRAM. Cheap, and relatively easy to find. :) >>> >>> You'd end up with one or two chips to do 32k x 12. >> >> 32Kx8 are easy to find as old cache RAM. They are not, however, low >> power, and would not be the best solution if you wanted to hang a >> battery off of them. OTOH, unless you are using paper tape software >> only, chances are you have a mass storage device and are booting into >> OS/8 and don't really need battery backup. > > True, but I think the idea there was to duplicate the functionality >of core, i.e. the nonvolatility in this case. Presumed only. Though with the parts I ahve it would be easy it was not a significant consideration. > That said, though, I've not found 486 motherboard cache memory to be >particularly easy to find. I did, however, buy a box of about 80 6264 >chips on eBay a few months ago for fifteen bucks. And 62256s are still >manufactured, as far as I'm aware. Both are easy to find. My supply of RAM came off some really nice but excess 486 boards must from the 1995-1998 timeframe. Allison From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 15 08:03:12 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:03:12 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > Don't FRAMs have a maximum write count? Other than that, they are an > excellent idea (and pin-compatible with 62256s, IIRC). They did, but apparently they have worked that out. From the website: "You can now access each address a million times per second for hundreds of years with no wear out" I remember getting sample of their first chip years ago, and tought it was pretty neat. -- Will From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 15 09:17:15 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:17:15 -0400 Subject: Scanning Formats In-Reply-To: <200608150611.k7F6BmHR002921@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <006701c6c075$82cae740$6c00a8c0@barry> RE: > But doesn't JPEG use lossy compression? Yes. You can adjust the "quality factor" but I think this would be A Bad Choice. Especially given my original comment that the documents are D-size reduced to B-size before printing (i.e., the text/lines are VERY fine and apt to disappear in the DCT application within the JPEG encoder.)" Yes, it's lossy compression, but if you use a high-quality setting (which was my point of 5K to 10K file size per square inch for color, or about 1/3 that for monochrome), you will never notice ANY difference. The size of the document is irrelevant, since as I said, "5K to 10K ***PER SQUARE INCH***". Larger documents produce larger files, but the quality loss for larger documents is no greater than for smaller documents ... which is to say, imperceptible. TRY IT, and compare the results. I suggest that you will not notice ANY difference between JPEG and TIFF, no matter what you do, no matter how you examine them. I have scanned nearly 40,000 pages now, plus almost 10,000 color photographs, since 2001. There is no good reason to use TIFF instead of JPEG, as long as you don't try to achieve excessive compression levels with JPEG (and at 5K to 10K per square inch for color, you won't be doing that -- that equates to 500K to 1 megabyte for an 8.5" x 11" color page). In fact, I often find that I can go down to less than 100k bytes per page (that's down towards and below 1K per square inch), but this is too much compression for some documents. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 15 09:44:20 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:44:20 -0400 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <44E0D136.8060107@arachelian.com> References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44DF4AA4.9040703@yahoo.co.uk> <20060813150747.271A0BA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44DF5A31.9090205@yahoo.co.uk> <44E0D136.8060107@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <361ffa66d6c32db5383846d3fd1dfeb0@neurotica.com> On Aug 14, 2006, at 3:38 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: >> the world and demand an answer in the same day, or reach them whilst >> they're visiting the bathroom, there's bound to be trouble! > > It's already too late. You can meet all of the requirements of your > last paragraph with crackberries, sidekicks, via SMS, email, instant > pester, and even cell phones. We've all got our leashes. Yes, and fortunately, they all have power switches. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 15 10:14:33 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:14:33 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <6efbad50170abe7ddd527aef11b20863@neurotica.com> On Aug 15, 2006, at 12:27 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> Why not use a pair of 62256s? 32Kx16 and ignore 4 bits. It'd >> even be >> >> easy to use a Dallas DS1210 or something like it to provide battery >> >> backup. >> >> How about two Ramtron FM18L08's? Nonvolatile like core with no battery >> to die or leak. Would need level shifters to 3.3 volts >> and slightly different timing. Low power, and in DIP or SMT. > > Don't FRAMs have a maximum write count? Well yes, 10^14 writes! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Aug 15 10:38:18 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:38:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <361ffa66d6c32db5383846d3fd1dfeb0@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20060815153818.AD7CC5856B@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Dave McGuire > > On Aug 14, 2006, at 3:38 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > >> the world and demand an answer in the same day, or reach them whilst > >> they're visiting the bathroom, there's bound to be trouble! > > > > It's already too late. You can meet all of the requirements of your > > last paragraph with crackberries, sidekicks, via SMS, email, instant > > pester, and even cell phones. We've all got our leashes. > > Yes, and fortunately, they all have power switches. ;) > That is, until they use power from *you*... Anyone remember B.A.T. for the Amiga? ( http://www.lemonamiga.com/games/details.php?id=128 ) The character you played had a computer implanted into his wrist. Cheers, Bryan From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 15 10:32:33 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:32:33 -0500 Subject: Comdex (Was: cctalk: Spam? In-Reply-To: <20060807142027.L78045@shell.lmi.net> References: <200608072125.k77LP5ms026815@keith.ezwind.net> <20060807142027.L78045@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060815103122.05630f58@mail> At 04:26 PM 8/7/2006, Fred Cisin wrote: >It probably wasn't deliberate. They probably sold the list to at least >one group that they shouldn't have, who then resold it far and wide. I think it happened to SIGGRAPH lists, too. When I was exhibiting, we'd routinely invent imaginary employees to consume our allocation of badges. I'm still getting the oddest junk (paper and e-) mail for those imaginary people, ten years later. - John From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 15 10:52:20 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:52:20 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <6efbad50170abe7ddd527aef11b20863@neurotica.com> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> <6efbad50170abe7ddd527aef11b20863@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608150852200420.38BF5317@10.0.0.252> On 8/15/2006 at 11:14 AM Dave McGuire wrote: >> Don't FRAMs have a maximum write count? > > Well yes, 10^14 writes! ;) So, let's see--for a system powered on and writing once per microsecond would hae 10^8 seconds worth of writing; given that there are about 3*10^7 seconds in a year, that would be roughly 3.3 years of continuous operation, no? But the Ramtron squib for the FM18L08 says: "FRAM is known for high write-endurance. Until now, some applications needed more cycles than FRAM could offer. No longer! The FM18L08 offers virtually unlimited read/write cycles. You can now access each address a million times per second for hundreds of years with no wear out. " So, is 10^14 an accurate figure? Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 15 11:10:44 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:10:44 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <44E14481.50204@dakotacom.net> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <200608141958530222.35FB356F@10.0.0.252> <44E14481.50204@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608151210.44228.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 14 August 2006 11:50 pm, Don wrote: > you could install a conventional AA, 9V, etc. battery and forget > about it "forever" Until the damn thing leaked, which has proven to be an issue with several items of equipment here... :-( -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 15 11:15:59 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:15:59 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <200608142219080269.367B9C60@10.0.0.252> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> <200608141958530222.35FB356F@10.0.0.252> <44E14481.50204@dakotacom.net> <200608142124250884.364986B2@10.0.0.252> <44E14F13.3030607@dakotacom.net> <200608142219080269.367B9C60@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44E1F33F.1040800@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/14/2006 at 9:35 PM Don wrote: > >> Unless you can make a battery application last A VERY LONG TIME >> (not just a LONG time since those are the cases where you get >> screwed because you have forgotten about the battery that >> you replaced 1 or 2 years ago... *but*, if you replaced it >> *10* years ago you don't mind -- as much -- when it dies >> after that long of a service life) it will frustrate users. > > Well, consider the Dallas battery-inside-the-chip clock-calendar circuits. > 7 years sounded like forever--and it may well have been to the original > owners of the equipment. But now, they're starting to fade and finding > replacements can be a bit of a hassle. In 20 years, it'll probably be > nearly impossible. Exactly! That's why you don't use a proprietary battery! (and, a battery *inside* a chip is the most proprietary form I know :> ). I deliberately redesigned the clock/bbsram's in my SPARCs to accept an external battery pack -- so I can just swap the batteries when the time comes (instead of having to hunt down replacement parts with stale batteries!) > For this particular application, any keep-alive power source needs only to > last as long the longest power-off interval. If, as Don, says a supercap But how often do you power up your '8? I'm sure many folks have them sit in a corner and only use them intermittently. E.g., my Voyager hasn't seen power applied in 6 mos or more :-( OTOH, if you *know* that those AA cells will keep it running for years AND you just discipline yourself to put a new set in as a regular maintenance issue (just like servicing your smoke detector, PDA, etc.), then you never find yourself worrying if you've not powered it up often enough to recharge a supercap! > will last several months, that should be good enough--and it's a permanent > solution. Heck, I wonder if you could trickle-charge the battery with > ambient light via a solar cell. That should extend the keep-alive period > some. > > I just don't like chemical reactions in my equipment--it's sort of like > bird's nest soup. It might taste good, but I don't like the idea of eating > bird spit.. I haven't found a "chemical mess" in a piece of equipment since some paperclad eveready D cells leaked in a flashlight a few decades ago. I last replaced the batteries in the SPARCs 3 years ago and my Compaq portable 3 was probably even longer than that (it is a more "involved" effort to disassemble than the SPARCs so it doesn't happen as often -- despite the fact that the consequences of a BBSRAM data loss in the compaq are potentially more severe than in the SPARCs). From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 15 11:18:46 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:18:46 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E1F3E6.9000005@dakotacom.net> O. Sharp wrote: >>> I have always HATED the idea of a battery where one wasn't absolutely >>> needed. They have a nasty tendency to go south when you can least afford >>> it--and they can leak or explode. >> That's why using a *regular* battery/cell instead of something >> "designed for battery backup" (e.g., Li coin cells, etc.). > [...] >> Unless you can make a battery application last A VERY LONG TIME >> (not just a LONG time since those are the cases where you get >> screwed because you have forgotten about the battery that >> you replaced 1 or 2 years ago... *but*, if you replaced it >> *10* years ago you don't mind -- as much -- when it dies >> after that long of a service life) it will frustrate users. > > Er, I don't think it's the longevity of the battery _power_ which is at > issue here; it's the physical longevity of the battery itself. > > I have mini-Maglites in my toolkit - three of 'em, and they all get use; I > work in the dark a great deal, but that's another story * - and recently > had the unpleasant surprise of having one of the "regular" batteries > corrode and die (and the batteries had been replaced less than a month > earlier). This did an _astonishingly_ effective job of destroying the > interior of the Maglite as well, the acids eating away the Maglite's > shell in a way I literally didn't think was possible. Defective battery? > Some other problem? We may never know. What brand of battery? I haven't seen a battery fail like this in decades. Was the light stored in a harsh environment? > Whatever the cause, I'd hate to even _contemplate_ the idea of that > possibly happening right next to a DEC backplane. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 15 11:24:24 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:24:24 -0700 Subject: The TIFF versus JPG debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E1F538.2060506@dakotacom.net> Armistead, Jason wrote: > My $0.02 worth on the abovementioned subject: > > TIFF has lots of ways data can be encoded within the basic TIFF file > structure, including LZW, CCITT G3 and CCITT G4 formats. If anyone is > interested, get a good look at the TIFF V6 specification, although the links > on the www.libtiff.org site seem to be broken and Adobe has now put their > copy of the TIFF specification behind a whole lot of "developer registration > required" pages you need to get through first. > > See also http://www.awaresystems.be/imaging/tiff/tifftags/compression.html > which describes the TIFF tags relating to compression of image data. I've had good results with TIFF in documents that I have prepared (user manuals, etc.). *But*, you can't stray too far from what is "expected". E.g., don't use weird BITS_PER_PIXEL values and expect many decoders to be able to handle your files! :-( Also, I have found that many *encoders* fail to sort the tags properly so when designing decoders, *expect* this problem :-/ > From where I sit, we've used TIFF with CCITT G42D (fax) compression on > bitonal (black and white only) image documents for 150,000 engineering > drawings with excellent results. This is a totally lossless compression > format (what you get back is exactly what you put in) specifically designed > to do a good job with what you'd find on pages of drawings or of text. If > you don't need colour or greyscale, then CCITT G42D is hard to beat. > > Within the US military, the CALS (Computer-aided Acquisition and Logistics > Support) Type 1 specification for bitonal images basically wraps the > compressed CCITT G42D data inside a slightly different wrapper to TIFF - > CALS is a fixed length text header, and TIFF is a lot of binary stuff. It's > easy to convert between the two formats when you know how. > > What I like about TIFF coupled with CCITT G42D compression most is (a) it's > lossless, (b) supports multi-page documents, (c) it's an open specification > with (d) an open source library to manipulate the files (LIBTIFF) and (e) it > is widely supported with hundreds of viewers available (on Windows, the free > Imaging component works fine for most people). I can also easily transform > my TIFF data into Postscript (btw Level 2 Postscript more or less supports > CCITT G42D compression too), PCL or even into PDF with not too much drama. > > In comparison, PDF is locked in more or less to Adobe's Acrobat Reader (yes, > I know there's always Ghostscript / GSView and friends ! ), and not as easy > to manipulate - I call it more of a nearly "final form" document format than > TIFF. I thought PDF's could just be used to *encapsulate* regular TIFF's? I.e., in much the same way that they can encapsulate JPEGs, etc. > JPEG is not suitable because it was a lossy format targeted at colour images > more than black and white, and it wasn't multi-page. I believe the JPEG > 2000 specification has improved on some of these such as providing a > lossless compression option, and can handle multi pages. I don't know if > software to support all these features is (a) cheap or (b) available. > > For my money, I'm sticking with TIFF Agreed. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 15 11:27:28 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:27:28 -0700 Subject: Newton In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E1F5F0.4030701@dakotacom.net> Joost van de Griek wrote: > On 8/10/06 4:37 PM, Don wrote: > >>> There is even a speech recognition software, so grab you Newt and say >>> 'Comuter, give me the news channel'. Not to mention the awsome sound programm >>> wich can even be made to speak. >> Well, you can "speak" with a one-bit D/AC running at ~20Ks/s so that's not >> particularly impressive :> (e.g., old pinball machines generated speech by >> bit-banging with a 1MHz 680x). > > But did they do text-to-speech? Actually, depending on how you implement the synthesizer itself, TTS on a 1MHz 6809 isn't hard :> > You'll want to go here: > And here: Thanks! I've been digging through the UNNA site for the past few days. Poorly documented, unfortunately. I'll have a look at the other site as well... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 15 11:33:07 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:33:07 -0600 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <6efbad50170abe7ddd527aef11b20863@neurotica.com> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> <6efbad50170abe7ddd527aef11b20863@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44E1F743.5060707@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: >> Don't FRAMs have a maximum write count? > Well yes, 10^14 writes! ;) 20 years * 365 * 24 * 60 * 60 * 1/1.24us is well over 10^14 for your typical PDP-8. :( > -Dave From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 15 11:33:25 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:33:25 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <0J41003CWGVPRRG2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J41003CWGVPRRG2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <44E1F755.3010904@dakotacom.net> Allison wrote: >> Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory >> From: Don >> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:50:25 -0700 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> On 8/14/2006 at 7:25 PM Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >>> >>>> How about two Ramtron FM18L08's? Nonvolatile like core with no battery >>>> to die or leak. Would need level shifters to 3.3 volts >>>> and slightly different timing. Low power, and in DIP or SMT. I'm just >>>> tired of cleaning boards that had batteries that leaked all over them. >>> How long will a supercap keep that much SRAM alive? >> Why not use a *big* battery/cell... aren't we talking >> about a design that would end up WAY undersized? Even >> scaled would leave lots of real estate that you could >> install a conventional AA, 9V, etc. battery and forget >> about it "forever" > > Because most batteries have shelf life! The average battery dies in > a few years from just sitting. The LI cells are designed for very long life. > I have a few sub-C sized LI cells that are over 15 years old and going strong. The shelf life (self discharge rate) of most batteries is *MANY* YEARS. The AAA cells I bought last year for my Visor have a "expiration date" of 2013. A low power BBRAM design essentially falls below this self discharge rate (unless you get sloppy with the design). The real problem is ensuring that the batteries (i.e. the equipment that they are stored in) doesn't sit in temperature extremes, high humidity, etc. And, if you're storing your '8 in those conditions, I suspect one of these days you'll be in for an unhappy surprise as you "suddenly" discover components that have fatigued From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 15 11:32:13 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:32:13 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <44E1F743.5060707@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> <6efbad50170abe7ddd527aef11b20863@neurotica.com> <44E1F743.5060707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Aug 15, 2006, at 12:33 PM, woodelf wrote: >>> Don't FRAMs have a maximum write count? >> Well yes, 10^14 writes! ;) > > 20 years * 365 * 24 * 60 * 60 * 1/1.24us is well over 10^14 > for your typical PDP-8. :( Sure, but you can buy a spare FRAM when you build the board, and get another twenty years. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 15 11:36:04 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:36:04 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <0J4100FFAH9B55M2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J4100FFAH9B55M2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <44E1F7F4.5000607@dakotacom.net> Allison wrote: >> But cache RAM is power hungry and has little practical chance >> of being converted to BBSRAM > > Most are not, few if any of mine are not. NOTE: many of those rams > are CMOS and at high cycle rates the power needed is impressive but > in standby and low cycle rates the power drops significantly! Often > they are spec'd at they fastest cycle time for power use as thats how > PCs used them. CMOS power dissipation is a direct function of clock frequency. *But*, you will find that at DC (which is where the device operates when in sleep mode) there are huge differences in the static Icc between different grades of SRAMs -- from the same manufacturer and P/N. From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 15 11:33:20 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:33:20 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <0J41006HNH4E6MP6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J41006HNH4E6MP6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200608151233.20920.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 15 August 2006 08:26 am, Allison wrote: > I shave off the top of the DS1287s and replace the cell. It's easy to find > the battery on those as it's magnetic! Interesting! What tooling do you use to do this? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 15 11:43:57 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:43:57 -0700 Subject: Scanning Formats In-Reply-To: <006701c6c075$82cae740$6c00a8c0@barry> References: <006701c6c075$82cae740$6c00a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <44E1F9CD.7030000@dakotacom.net> Barry Watzman wrote: > RE: [fixed indents] >>> But doesn't JPEG use lossy compression? >> >> Yes. You can adjust the "quality factor" but I think this >> would be A Bad Choice. Especially given my original comment >> that the documents are D-size reduced to B-size before printing >> (i.e., the text/lines are VERY fine and apt to disappear >> in the DCT application within the JPEG encoder.)" > > Yes, it's lossy compression, but if you use a high-quality setting (which > was my point of 5K to 10K file size per square inch for color, or about 1/3 > that for monochrome), you will never notice ANY difference. The size of the > document is irrelevant, since as I said, "5K to 10K ***PER SQUARE INCH***". The size of the *original* document is important as it has been scaled down to print on a page 1/4 it's original size. I.e. you start to approach the resolution of the marking engine (e.g., 1 pixel wide lines) which, mathematically, looks like a very high frequency component. > Larger documents produce larger files, but the quality loss for larger > documents is no greater than for smaller documents ... which is to say, > imperceptible. TRY IT, and compare the results. I suggest that you will > not notice ANY difference between JPEG and TIFF, no matter what you do, no > matter how you examine them. I have scanned nearly 40,000 pages now, plus > almost 10,000 color photographs, since 2001. There is no good reason to use > TIFF instead of JPEG, as long as you don't try to achieve excessive > compression levels with JPEG (and at 5K to 10K per square inch for color, > you won't be doing that -- that equates to 500K to 1 megabyte for an 8.5" x > 11" color page). In fact, I often find that I can go down to less than 100k > bytes per page (that's down towards and below 1K per square inch), but this > is too much compression for some documents. I'll play with it "as an exercise". I suspect I will find fuzzy signal lines (i.e. as if they were anti-aliased) :-( Let me dig up some suitable drawings (any B-sized photocopies will have too much "toner spread" to test the fine line issue) From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Aug 15 11:50:12 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:50:12 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <44E1F743.5060707@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> <6efbad50170abe7ddd527aef11b20863@neurotica.com> <44E1F743.5060707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44E1FB44.4070204@pacbell.net> woodelf wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > >>> Don't FRAMs have a maximum write count? >> Well yes, 10^14 writes! ;) > > 20 years * 365 * 24 * 60 * 60 * 1/1.24us is well over 10^14 > for your typical PDP-8. :( My calculator says 5 x 10^14. You should also derate by the fact that no program will spend 100% of its cycles writing to a single location. 20 years is safe. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 15 11:56:42 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:56:42 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <200608151210.44228.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <200608141958530222.35FB356F@10.0.0.252> <44E14481.50204@dakotacom.net> <200608151210.44228.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44E1FCCA.6060208@dakotacom.net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 14 August 2006 11:50 pm, Don wrote: >> you could install a conventional AA, 9V, etc. battery and forget >> about it "forever" > > Until the damn thing leaked, which has proven to be an issue with several > items of equipment here... :-( I must have extraordinary luck (?) I just don't see this problem here. :-( Perhaps you *literally* forgot about it "forever"? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 15 12:59:17 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:59:17 +0000 Subject: The TIFF versus JPG debate In-Reply-To: <44E1F538.2060506@dakotacom.net> References: <44E1F538.2060506@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E20B75.9090408@yahoo.co.uk> Don wrote: > I thought PDF's could just be used to *encapsulate* regular TIFF's? > I.e., in much the same way that they can encapsulate JPEGs, etc. Yes, but what would be the point? It doesn't really gain you anything except going from a more widely supported format to one that's less so. >> For my money, I'm sticking with TIFF > > Agreed. Seconded. -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 15 13:00:21 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:00:21 +0000 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <000a01c6c013$2d462080$6c00a8c0@barry> References: <000a01c6c013$2d462080$6c00a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <44E20BB5.5010909@yahoo.co.uk> Barry Watzman wrote: > I think TIFF is a mistake; I'd use JPEG, at about 5K to 10K per square inch > for color, or about 1/3 that for monochrome. Umm, ten thousand dpi!? -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From vrs at msn.com Tue Aug 15 11:58:39 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:58:39 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net><44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net><44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E10935.507@bellatlantic.net> Message-ID: From: "Allison" > I have a few quad width protoboards that are PDP-11 (not sure > if unibus or Qbus) but with strategic cuts for power and > ground they work for omnibus. I have a couple of these, too, but mine are all 16-pin sockets. I'd have to mount a daughter board or something to be able to use them for this. Vince From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 15 12:12:29 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:12:29 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 36, Issue 50 In-Reply-To: <200608151704.k7FH3xDs010336@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000f01c6c08d$fe3fbeb0$6c00a8c0@barry> Re: > But doesn't JPEG use lossy compression? >Yes. And it blows thick industrial-waste chunks on any >graphics that are non-photographic. >Peace... Sridhar Bull Take a look at the stuff I've scanned on Howard Harte's site, including schematics, for example this one: http://www.hartetechnologies.com/manuals/Cromemco/Cromemco%20Bytesaver%20II. pdf They are fine. Keep in mind that almost every PDF file that was produced by scanning is a JPEG internally. Sure, there are lots of such files that are crap, there are lots of bad scanners (referring to both the hardware and the people that use them). But there are also some that are excellent, superb, indistinguishable from the original. And since they are all JPEGs, JPEG can do this with no discernable compromise IF YOU DON'T TRY TO OVER-COMPRESS. [The schematic in the Bytesaver manual was almost unreadable in the original printed format, extremely fine, extremely faint lines, but take a look, for example, at the drawing on page 10 of the manual (page 12 of the PDF file).] From vrs at msn.com Tue Aug 15 12:18:13 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:18:13 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> <6efbad50170abe7ddd527aef11b20863@neurotica.com><44E1F743.5060707@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E1FB44.4070204@pacbell.net> Message-ID: From: "Jim Battle" > woodelf wrote: > > 20 years * 365 * 24 * 60 * 60 * 1/1.24us is well over 10^14 > > for your typical PDP-8. :( > > My calculator says 5 x 10^14. Mine also gets a little under 4 years for 10^14, not 20 years. > You should also derate by the fact that no program will spend 100% of > its cycles writing to a single location. Actually, I think the program JMP . does just that. IIRC, JMP doesn't have and EXEC cycle, and the next cycle is the FETCH from the new location. Since all cycles, are RMW, the current location would be then written during the last half of every cycle. But, I think we can be sure that no-one wrote an operating system where that was the idle loop, and is running it 24/7 :-). > 20 years is safe. I'd go with 12 (maybe call it 10, to be overcautious :-)). Then you can run the more common ISZ FOO / or KSF or whatever JMP .-1 loop :-). The way I run mine, another 12 years of operating time is well outside my expected lifespan! I think the more compelling problems with FRAM have to do with availability and 3.3V buffering and such. Vince From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 15 12:14:51 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:14:51 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <44E1FCCA.6060208@dakotacom.net> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <200608151210.44228.rtellason@verizon.net> <44E1FCCA.6060208@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608151314.51063.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 15 August 2006 12:56 pm, Don wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Monday 14 August 2006 11:50 pm, Don wrote: > >> you could install a conventional AA, 9V, etc. battery and forget > >> about it "forever" > > > > Until the damn thing leaked, which has proven to be an issue with > > several items of equipment here... :-( > > I must have extraordinary luck (?) I just don't see this problem > here. :-( Perhaps you *literally* forgot about it "forever"? Darn near. I had to smack my old simpson 260 to get the highest ohms range to work, and it turned out that one of the AA batteries in there had leaked, which are only used on that range. The bit of masking tape on the back showed them having been changed out in 1987. I'm not sure if they'd been changed in the interim or not... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From vrs at msn.com Tue Aug 15 12:26:40 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:26:40 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory References: <0J41006HNH4E6MP6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <200608151233.20920.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: From: "Roy J. Tellason" > On Tuesday 15 August 2006 08:26 am, Allison wrote: > > I shave off the top of the DS1287s and replace the cell. It's easy to find > > the battery on those as it's magnetic! > > Interesting! What tooling do you use to do this? I thought they were kinda sorta designed to make this easy? I seem to recall some of the Dallas parts even have available battery replacements, where you can remove the old battery and attach the new, which snaps onto the IC somehow? Of course, given how part availability works these days, I'd expect to retool the snap-on carrier to allow me to put batteries elsewhere, as surely no-one will even admit to having heard of the things by the time you need the new battery. Vince From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 15 12:37:02 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:37:02 -0400 Subject: Scanning Formats In-Reply-To: <000f01c6c08d$fe3fbeb0$6c00a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <200608151750.k7FHoK3Y058803@keith.ezwind.net> On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:12:29 -0400, Barry Watzman wrote: >Take a look at the stuff I've scanned on Howard Harte's site, including >schematics, for example this one: >http://www.hartetechnologies.com/manuals/Cromemco/Cromemco%20Bytesaver%20II. >pdf Looks good to me, what resolution are you scanning at ? BTW: By turning off compatibility mode (requireing 5.0 or later) and re-saving reduced the pdf from 4meg to 2.61 meg without any additional loss. Concidering this thread started out with the question as to how to reduce storage requirements a 35% reduction is worth concidering. Bob Bradlee From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 15 12:39:42 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:39:42 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: References: <0J41006HNH4E6MP6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <200608151233.20920.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44E206DE.6040708@dakotacom.net> vrs wrote: > From: "Roy J. Tellason" >> On Tuesday 15 August 2006 08:26 am, Allison wrote: >>> I shave off the top of the DS1287s and replace the cell. It's easy to > find >>> the battery on those as it's magnetic! >> Interesting! What tooling do you use to do this? > > I thought they were kinda sorta designed to make this easy? I seem to > recall > some of the Dallas parts even have available battery replacements, where you > can remove the old battery and attach the new, which snaps onto the IC > somehow? The Mostek (?) "top hat" package was designed like that. Most of the Dallas parts I have seen were potted blocks. From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Aug 15 12:39:14 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:39:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <200608151314.51063.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20060815173914.C076A58562@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Roy J. Tellason > > On Tuesday 15 August 2006 12:56 pm, Don wrote: > > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > On Monday 14 August 2006 11:50 pm, Don wrote: > > >> you could install a conventional AA, 9V, etc. battery and forget > > >> about it "forever" > > > > > > Until the damn thing leaked, which has proven to be an issue with > > > several items of equipment here... :-( > > > > I must have extraordinary luck (?) I just don't see this problem > > here. :-( Perhaps you *literally* forgot about it "forever"? > > Darn near. I had to smack my old simpson 260 to get the highest ohms range to > work, and it turned out that one of the AA batteries in there had leaked, > which are only used on that range. > > The bit of masking tape on the back showed them having been changed out in > 1987. I'm not sure if they'd been changed in the interim or not... > If these batteries have the Eveready 9-lives cat logo on them, then they probably have not been changed... ;) Cheers, Bryan From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 15 12:42:10 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:42:10 -0700 Subject: The TIFF versus JPG debate In-Reply-To: <44E20B75.9090408@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44E1F538.2060506@dakotacom.net> <44E20B75.9090408@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44E20772.90707@dakotacom.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Don wrote: >> I thought PDF's could just be used to *encapsulate* regular TIFF's? >> I.e., in much the same way that they can encapsulate JPEGs, etc. > > Yes, but what would be the point? It doesn't really gain you anything > except going from a more widely supported format to one that's less so. My point was that the image itself is still a TIFF -- *encased* in a PDF package. PDF has value in that you can put other things (e.g., explanatory text, parts lists, source code for diagnostics, etc.) in the same "package" -- handy when you are archiving *projects* (as is my need) >>> For my money, I'm sticking with TIFF >> >> Agreed. > > Seconded. It will be interesting to see what the real numbers/quality are... From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 15 12:47:07 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:47:07 -0700 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <44E20BB5.5010909@yahoo.co.uk> References: <000a01c6c013$2d462080$6c00a8c0@barry> <44E20BB5.5010909@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44E2089B.1060502@dakotacom.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Barry Watzman wrote: >> I think TIFF is a mistake; I'd use JPEG, at about 5K to 10K per square >> inch >> for color, or about 1/3 that for monochrome. > > Umm, ten thousand dpi!? I think his point was "adjust quality factor so resulting image file has a size of ~10KB per sq in of original document". E.g., A size is ~90 sq in so target a 1MB file size. (note that this would correspond to an UNCOMPRESSED TIFF scanned at 300dpi! -- did I do the math right? -- in which case, the whole argument starts to fall apart since a 300dpi TIFF *compressed* would be much smaller! Or, for that given size, a COMPRESSED TIFF could be scanned at a much higher resolution) From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Aug 15 12:48:26 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:48:26 -0500 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> References: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E208EA.7000707@pacbell.net> Don wrote: > Hi, > > I usually don't bother compressing TIF's of scanned > images -- since I'm not too concerned with saving > space for small documents. > > But, recently, I started scanning B-size drawings ... > Suggestions? I had thought of FAX encoding (naive > but it should work well on line drawings/schematics)... There is a classiccmp knowledge base article on this: http://www.classiccmp.org/kb/submit_comment.php?FileID=2 However, I have some criticisms of it. First, it seems to address a few of the "hot buttons" of the author, Eric Smith, but really isn't very comprehensive guidance for somebody who would like to start scanning in earnest. What DPI to use? What pre/post processing is profitable? Trade-offs of the formats? Software? Scanners? OCR? Second, I think it is pretty one sided; real life is more shaded. (*) "JPEG is blurry". This is not necessarily true. JPEG has a lossless mode, but it is not generally used and at best gives only 2:1 compression, typically, so that is just a nit. Even in lossy mode, JPEG can asymptotically yield lossless results, but at the cost of large files. (*) "G3/G4/TIFF is lossless". Sure, if you are starting from 1 bpp images, but when scanning, you aren't. Text and line art are continuous images, but they do have sharp edges (but not staircases!). The scanner takes an area sample of each "point" on the page, and due to the high number of edge pixels, many of them fall between 0% and 100% intensity. Converting to 1 bpp loses oodles of information; this loss isn't apparent if scanning at high enough resolution or if not zoomed in. Zoom in far enough, no matter what resolution, and the image will be clearly quantized. For most practical applications this is not a concern. Another way to view the trade off is that while jpeg tends to throw away high frequencies, capturing at 1 bpp adds artificial high frequencies. Decreasing compression for jpg or scanning at higher resolution for 1 bpp capture will reduce their respectively problems, but at the cost of larger file size for both. There are situations where capturing a scan as bitonal is a bad idea, and luckily I haven't had too many cases where using a low loss jpeg format was necessary. For example, I had some blueline reproductions that were reductions of an original, had uneven, blotchy tone, with lots of smudges. I'm sure with enough time and effort it is theoretically possible to have a filter that adaptively thresholds things *just right*, but I don't have it. It was easiest just to live with 2 MB jpegs. Another situation where jpeg is better than 1 bpp, no matter what file format -- if you just don't care about file size and want the ultimate in fidelity (in that case, you can argue that you should be using bmp files). Since this subject comes up pretty often, the article could use a rewrite, as it is lacking a lot of information, if if you disagree with my criticisms. So as not to sound too pedantic about all of this, file size is still an issue and most of the documents that I scan are relatively clean; I find that 1 bpp images captured at 300 - 400 dpi (more if the text or images are particularly fine) are the best choice, along with the occasional jpeg insert. As for Barry's rule of thumb for jpg image size, there is a wide range of tolerance that people are willing to live with, and I don't doubt his 10KB produces fine results. I don't understand the comment that B&W images should be 1/3 the size of color images; a 300 dpi color jpg image stores intensity at 300 dpi and two channels of color differences at 150 dpi (that is, only 1/3 of a color jpg file contains color information). Stripping out color should save only 1/3 of the file size, not 2/3. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 15 12:48:38 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:48:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <44E20BB5.5010909@yahoo.co.uk> References: <000a01c6c013$2d462080$6c00a8c0@barry> <44E20BB5.5010909@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200608151749.NAA15364@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I think TIFF is a mistake; I'd use JPEG, at about 5K to 10K per >> square inch for color, or about 1/3 that for monochrome. > Umm, ten thousand dpi!? Ten thousand pixels per *square* inch is only 100 per *linear* inch. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Aug 15 12:50:10 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:50:10 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> <6efbad50170abe7ddd527aef11b20863@neurotica.com> <44E1F743.5060707@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E1FB44.4070204@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060815134501.059463c0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that vrs may have mentioned these words: >I think the more compelling problems with FRAM have to do with >availability and 3.3V buffering and such. Gwarsh - then why not just order the 5V version? Unforch, the 1Mbit parts are 3.3V only, but the 256 & 64Kbit parts (the FM 1808 & FM1608 respectively) have 5V versions in both 120ns & 70ns speeds. http://www.mouser.com/search/refine.aspx?Mpc=Ramtron%2BMemory%2B%2D%2BParallel%2BFRAM&Mpcn=87700 or here, if line-wrapping sucks... http://tinyurl.com/nweux Not too expensive, if you ask me. (But you didn't ask me! ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 15 13:08:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:08:07 -0700 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <44E20BB5.5010909@yahoo.co.uk> References: <000a01c6c013$2d462080$6c00a8c0@barry> <44E20BB5.5010909@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200608151108070776.393BA463@10.0.0.252> On 8/15/2006 at 6:00 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >Barry Watzman wrote: >> I think TIFF is a mistake; I'd use JPEG, at about 5K to 10K per square >inch >> for color, or about 1/3 that for monochrome. > >Umm, ten thousand dpi!? I don't think so--that's 10K per "square inch". Linear resolution would be the square root of that--100 dpi, no? Cheers, Chuck From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 15 13:12:29 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:12:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060815134501.059463c0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20060815181232.74075.qmail@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Roger MercMerchbergererzmerchacctalkelow.com> wrote: > > >I think the more compelling problems with FRAMFRAMe > to do with > >availability and 3.3V buffering and such. > > GwarGwarshhen why not just order the 5V version? > UnfoUnforche 1MbitMbitts > are 3.3V only, but the 256 & 64KbitKbitts (the FM > 1808 & FM1608 > respectively) have 5V versions in both 120ns &ns0ns nsspeeds. > The 5 volt parts have a write cycle limitation that's not there with the 3.3 volt parts. Bob From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 15 13:21:08 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:21:08 -0700 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <44E208EA.7000707@pacbell.net> References: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> <44E208EA.7000707@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200608151121080206.39478CE9@10.0.0.252> Please permit me to relate my experience with this, albeit not with character documents. I use an OCR program to process printed music into a format that my transcription programs can understand (don't get me started on incompatible file formats!). Now, this is typically a low accuracy process--musical notation is essentially handwritten notation. Prior to the advent of computer transcription, music was published either by publishing a photographic rendition of the handwritten score or engraved by hand onto copper plates. It's a real art and computer transcription programs rarely approach the quality that a hand-engraved score can have, but they're getting better and they might actually rival real hand-engraved scores sometime. So, you're fortunate if you can get 80% accuracy with an OCR engine. Obviously, the manual cleanup process is very time-intensive. But it's all we've got in the music world. TIFF is the standard for all musical OCR. I've tried using what appears to be a very clean JPEG, converting to TIFF and the results have always been very disappointing. Perhaps it's a bug in the image conversion software. I get much better results with B&W GIF converted to TIFF. Note that much of musical notation is lines. The Library of Congress publishes its online music libraries using TIFF and it works very well. JPEG is used for photographic images. Cheers, Chuck From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 15 13:25:51 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:25:51 -0700 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <200608151749.NAA15364@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <000a01c6c013$2d462080$6c00a8c0@barry> <44E20BB5.5010909@yahoo.co.uk> <200608151749.NAA15364@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44E211AF.8080905@dakotacom.net> der Mouse wrote: >>> I think TIFF is a mistake; I'd use JPEG, at about 5K to 10K per >>> square inch for color, or about 1/3 that for monochrome. >> Umm, ten thousand dpi!? > > Ten thousand pixels per *square* inch is only 100 per *linear* inch. I read that as "ten thousand BYTES" per sq in. :> From spc at conman.org Tue Aug 15 13:53:14 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:53:14 -0400 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <200608151121080206.39478CE9@10.0.0.252> References: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> <44E208EA.7000707@pacbell.net> <200608151121080206.39478CE9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060815185314.GB26080@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > > So, you're fortunate if you can get 80% accuracy with an OCR engine. > Obviously, the manual cleanup process is very time-intensive. But it's all > we've got in the music world. But what if you use mutiple OCR programs? Say, three different OCR programs and then process the results taking a majority vote on each resulting character? Even if all three mangle 20%, it won't always be the *same* 20% across all three, right? (and if I did my math right, using three 80% accurate programs reduces the error rate to just 0.8% or a 99.2% accuracy rate) -spc (Or am I totally off base, it's been tried and doesn't work as I think it would ... ) From kth at srv.net Tue Aug 15 14:25:21 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:25:21 -0600 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <200608132129370002.3127E868@10.0.0.252> References: <44DFCB1B.80600@dakotacom.net> <44DFD0B4.3070907@dakotacom.net> <20060814035357.GE5205@linus.groomlake.area51> <200608132129370002.3127E868@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44E21FA1.8070001@srv.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 8/13/2006 at 11:53 PM Sean Conner wrote: > > > >> for (i = 0 ; i < MAX ; i++) >> foo[i] = 0; >> >> when it could easily be replaced with: >> >> memset(foo,0,sizeof(foo)); >> >> > >The argument some would give you is that if you had a compiler worth spit, >it would optimize away the index and reduce the above to: > > memset(foo,0,sizeof foo); > i = MAX; > >Then if the compiler saw that the value of i was re-initialized without >being read, it would get rid of the last statement. The explicit loop >statement is a easy way to explicitly state what's meant and does not rely >on the implementation of a library function. > > > Never trust an optimization unless you see it for yourself. Looking at a real-world example of generated code, I wrote #include extern char x1[1024]; extern char x2[1024]; void clear() { // For loop for (int i = 0; i < 1024; i++) { x1[i] = 0; } // memset memset(x2, 1, 1024); } x1 and x2 were declared external so that the optimizer won't optimize references to them away. This generated the following output using O3 level optimization [kevin at kevin temp]$ gcc --version gcc (GCC) 3.2.2 20030222 (Red Hat Linux 3.2.2-5) Copyright (C) 2002 Free Software Foundation, Inc. This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. [kevin at kevin temp]$ gcc -S -O3 -std=c99 opt.c [kevin at kevin temp]$ cat opt.s .file "opt.c" .text .p2align 2,,3 .globl clear .type clear, at function clear: pushl %ebp movl %esp, %ebp xorl %eax, %eax subl $8, %esp .p2align 2,,3 .L6: movb $0, x1(%eax) ; ** for loop incl %eax cmpl $1023, %eax jle .L6 pushl %eax ; **memset pushl $1024 pushl $1 pushl $x2 call memset leave ret .Lfe1: .size clear,.Lfe1-clear .ident "GCC: (GNU) 3.2.2 20030222 (Red Hat Linux 3.2.2-5)" So, in this case the loop operates inline, while the memset version pushes parameters onto the stack, then calls an external function. I suspect that the loop version, which generates inline code with hardwired values, is likely to be slightly faster than the call to memset, unless memset is doing something very odd. gcc 4.1.2 generates similiar, but different code. memset still calls an external routine. >One thing I've learned is "never underestimate the cleverness of a good >optimizer". If a loop is particularly complicated, you can occasionally >find an automatic optimization that's nothing short of pure genius. > >We need to ask more of our compiler writers; we really do. > > > >> That's just the programmer not knowing the available functions, or >>perhaps, coming from a system that doesn't have stat() available (it's not >>part of the ANSI-C standard library, limiting the ways one can get the >> >> >size > > >>of a file portably, and each of them having problems). For more horror >>stories, you can always check out http://thedailywtf.com/ . >> >> > >Why not fseek( file, 0, SEEK_END); length = ftell( file); ? >ANSI-compatible and shouldn't involve any I/O. > > > Which doesn't generate accurate values on VMS. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 15 14:26:30 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:26:30 -0600 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060815134501.059463c0@mail.30below.com> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> <6efbad50170abe7ddd527aef11b20863@neurotica.com> <44E1F743.5060707@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E1FB44.4070204@pacbell.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20060815134501.059463c0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <44E21FE6.2050207@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that vrs may have mentioned these words: > >> I think the more compelling problems with FRAM have to do with >> availability and 3.3V buffering and such. > > > Gwarsh - then why not just order the 5V version? Unforch, the 1Mbit > parts are 3.3V only, but the 256 & 64Kbit parts (the FM 1808 & FM1608 > respectively) have 5V versions in both 120ns & 70ns speeds. The 5 volt stuff has read/write cycle limits if I remember right. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 15 14:27:29 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:27:29 -0700 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <20060815185314.GB26080@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> <44E208EA.7000707@pacbell.net> <200608151121080206.39478CE9@10.0.0.252> <20060815185314.GB26080@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <44E22021.4030202@dakotacom.net> Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: >> So, you're fortunate if you can get 80% accuracy with an OCR engine. >> Obviously, the manual cleanup process is very time-intensive. But it's all >> we've got in the music world. > > But what if you use mutiple OCR programs? Say, three different OCR > programs and then process the results taking a majority vote on each > resulting character? Even if all three mangle 20%, it won't always be the > *same* 20% across all three, right? (and if I did my math right, using > three 80% accurate programs reduces the error rate to just 0.8% or a 99.2% > accuracy rate) I guess that depends on how the OCR program renders the *graphical* representation of the music score. I.e. if it renders it in a *cleaner* graphic format, then you've just traded one hard problem for another. :-( I assume the originals are hand-drawn (though no doubt on a mechanically reproduced/ruled staff)? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 15 14:43:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:43:29 -0700 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <44E21FA1.8070001@srv.net> References: <44DFCB1B.80600@dakotacom.net> <44DFD0B4.3070907@dakotacom.net> <20060814035357.GE5205@linus.groomlake.area51> <200608132129370002.3127E868@10.0.0.252> <44E21FA1.8070001@srv.net> Message-ID: <200608151243290110.3992F0D9@10.0.0.252> On 8/15/2006 at 1:25 PM Kevin Handy wrote: >Never trust an optimization unless you see it for yourself. Well, one might expand this to "never trust a compiler unless you can see the code for yourself". At some point, we need to demand that a compiler generate correct code. I will grant that writing a good bug-free optimizer is not easy, but it's been done. Microsoft C (16 bit) generates identical code for both the loop and the memset() call--an inline "rep stosw"; Microsoft 32-bit C generates the same code also--a "rep stosd" for both. Cheers, Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Aug 15 14:46:18 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:46:18 +0200 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <200608151233.20920.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <0J41006HNH4E6MP6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <200608151233.20920.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20060815214618.7109df42@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:33:20 -0400 "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > > I shave off the top of the DS1287s and replace the cell. It's easy > > to find the battery on those as it's magnetic! > Interesting! Have a look at the Sun NVRAM FAQ... > What tooling do you use to do this? I file down the half of the molded top where the battery is until I reach the + pole of the battery. I use the wire of the + pole as a guide for the next step. I use some Dremel like tool to mill the side of the molded top away until I can access the + and - pole / the wires coming out of the chip. Then I disconnect only the + wire from the battery, solder wires to the wires coming out of the lower part of the chip and attach a new battery. Finaly I put some glue on the miled side of the chip to support the new wires. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Aug 15 14:51:23 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:51:23 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <20060815181232.74075.qmail@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060815134501.059463c0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060815153133.03de32f0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Bob Rosenbloom may have mentioned these words: >--- Roger MercMerchbergererzmerchacctalkelow.com> >wrote: > > > > >I think the more compelling problems with FRAMFRAMe > > to do with > > >availability and 3.3V buffering and such. > > > > GwarGwarshhen why not just order the 5V version? > > UnfoUnforche 1MbitMbitts > > are 3.3V only, but the 256 & 64KbitKbitts (the FM > > 1808 & FM1608 > > respectively) have 5V versions in both 120ns &ns0ns >nsspeeds. > > > >The 5 volt parts have a write cycle limitation that's >not there with the 3.3 volt parts. Ah, yes - 10 *billion* writes. Dang. ;-) I do see where replacing core with this stuff could be affected, as core *needs* to be rewritten every read (reads are destructive, aren't they?) ... ... but you know what? This looks like some *schweet* stuff to use to rebuild a few of my old Tandy Model 100/200/102 computers with. -0- battery drain to keep the memory. It looks to be about the same amount of power consumption whilst active as the existing low-power static RAM installed, but you wouldn't have to worry as much about keeping the internal nicad charged (for BBSRAM). Heck, if one hacked in a switchable /WE line to the ROMs & switched this thru, one could possibly patch/rewrite the ROMS on the fly, too! ;-) Things that make you go "Hummmmm"... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 15 14:54:17 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:54:17 -0700 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <44E22021.4030202@dakotacom.net> References: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> <44E208EA.7000707@pacbell.net> <200608151121080206.39478CE9@10.0.0.252> <20060815185314.GB26080@linus.groomlake.area51> <44E22021.4030202@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608151254170555.399CD5B6@10.0.0.252> On 8/15/2006 at 12:27 PM Don wrote: >> But what if you use mutiple OCR programs? Say, three different OCR >> programs and then process the results taking a majority vote on each >> resulting character? Even if all three mangle 20%, it won't always be the >> *same* 20% across all three, right? (and if I did my math right, using >> three 80% accurate programs reduces the error rate to just 0.8% or a >> 99.2% accuracy rate) OCR apps for music tend to range from miserable to truly dreadful. The situation seems to be that if the best doesn't recognize something, neither will the lesser programs. In my experience, using more than one program doesn't improve things; it makes them worse. >I assume the originals are hand-drawn (though no doubt on a >mechanically reproduced/ruled staff)? Hand-drawn in the sense that the originals were either inked on manuscript paper (i.e. pre-ruled) or hand-engraved. For an interesting take on the complexity of engraving, the Lilypond musical engraving program website has some examples of the nuances: http://lilypond.org/web/about/automated-engraving/ Cheers, Chuck From spc at conman.org Tue Aug 15 14:56:13 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:56:13 -0400 Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <44E21FA1.8070001@srv.net> References: <44DFCB1B.80600@dakotacom.net> <44DFD0B4.3070907@dakotacom.net> <20060814035357.GE5205@linus.groomlake.area51> <200608132129370002.3127E868@10.0.0.252> <44E21FA1.8070001@srv.net> Message-ID: <20060815195613.GC26080@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Kevin Handy once stated: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Never trust an optimization unless you see it for yourself. > Looking at a real-world example of generated code, I wrote [ some C code to test a loop vs. memset() ] > This generated the following output using O3 level optimization [ Assembly code from GCC ] > So, in this case the loop operates inline, while the memset > version pushes parameters onto the stack, then calls an > external function. > > I suspect that the loop version, which generates inline code with > hardwired values, is likely to be slightly faster than the call to > memset, unless memset is doing something very odd. Well ... how ... disappointing. I played around with GCC 2.7.2.3 (yes, old) and the code produced wasn't different at all, and I tried several different varients to the memset() call (declaring the variable local, reducing the amount set to 4 bytes, changing the type, etc). Now, I could understand if the clear routine accepted a char pointer as a parameter---then you have issues of alignment that the compiler can't make, but that wasn't the case (since you were calling memset() directly on arrays which will have proper alignment). The only thing I can think that memset() might do that is unusual is that on Pentium class machines, using the floating point hardware to write to memory is faster than using the 32 bit registers, but I could only see that being used for Pentium specific code (and even then, only certain generations of the Pentium). Sigh. -spc (Maybe they felt that adding compiler support for memset() wasn't worth the time since most code uses explicit loops?) From kth at srv.net Tue Aug 15 15:21:35 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:21:35 -0600 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E22CCF.2050909@srv.net> O. Sharp wrote: > Er, I don't think it's the longevity of the battery _power_ which is at > >issue here; it's the physical longevity of the battery itself. > >I have mini-Maglites in my toolkit - three of 'em, and they all get use; I >work in the dark a great deal, but that's another story * - and recently >had the unpleasant surprise of having one of the "regular" batteries >corrode and die (and the batteries had been replaced less than a month >earlier). This did an _astonishingly_ effective job of destroying the >interior of the Maglite as well, the acids eating away the Maglite's >shell in a way I literally didn't think was possible. Defective battery? >Some other problem? We may never know. > > Could you have left the flashlight on the last time you put it back into the toolbox? I have had batteries left on for a long time do rather nasty things. Probably nasty things happen when they go past "discharged". >Whatever the cause, I'd hate to even _contemplate_ the idea of that >possibly happening right next to a DEC backplane. > > > From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Aug 15 15:15:39 2006 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:15:39 -0500 Subject: Scanning formats Message-ID: <20060815201538.YAAJ18080.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> > But what if you use mutiple OCR programs? Say, three different OCR > programs and then process the results taking a majority vote on each > resulting character? Even if all three mangle 20%, it won't always be the > *same* 20% across all three, right? (and if I did my math right, using > three 80% accurate programs reduces the error rate to just 0.8% or a 99.2% > accuracy rate) In the text OCR world, it's a mixed bag. I've tried this some in my day job at FedEx. While you can get some improvement this way, I've found a little different approach to help even more. You start with a greyscale image and do the binarizing yourself. Then you run the OCR engine on the image with several different binarization algorithms and different parameters on each. One of the commercial vendors does something like this and gives it a fancy name, like virtual rescan or something like that. At least with the material and techniques I was using, I found diminishing returns started to set in at after about 3 passes. BLS From kth at srv.net Tue Aug 15 15:50:36 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:50:36 -0600 Subject: Micom Data Concentrator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E2339C.1070507@srv.net> Christian Corti wrote: > Hi, > > I have two Micom Micro800/2 DataConcentrators and can't get them to do > anything useful. I think they are concentrators/multiplexors that > multiplex 8 terminal lines over one high-speed serial line. > The problem is I don't have any manuals for them nor any other > information like pinouts or switch settings, does anyone have the > manual in electronic form? I only have a manual for the Micro800/X.25 > Concentrator PAD. I have seen two different types of connectors for multiplexors. 1. Leased line (usually 2 pair). Will be either a screw-on connector or a phone type of connector to hook them up. 2. Synchronous modem. Will have a DB-25 connector for the modem. Depends on the mux if it will work with some cross-over cable. Your best bet would be to find a manual for the device, and see what it says you can do. Micom.com exists, as part of Nortel, but a quich search didn't pull up anything. Try that, or a google search. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 15 16:39:07 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:39:07 +0000 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <200608151254170555.399CD5B6@10.0.0.252> References: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> <44E208EA.7000707@pacbell.net> <200608151121080206.39478CE9@10.0.0.252> <20060815185314.GB26080@linus.groomlake.area51> <44E22021.4030202@dakotacom.net> <200608151254170555.399CD5B6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44E23EFB.4030700@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > OCR apps for music tend to range from miserable to truly dreadful. Much like OCR apps for anything other than Windows, then :-( From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 15 15:47:03 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:47:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> <6efbad50170abe7ddd527aef11b20863@neurotica.com><44E1F743.5060707@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E1FB44.4070204@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20060815134524.F84365@shell.lmi.net> > > > 20 years * 365 * 24 * 60 * 60 * 1/1.24us is well over 10^14 > > > for your typical PDP-8. :( > > My calculator says 5 x 10^14. > On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, vrs wrote: > Mine also gets a little under 4 years for 10^14, not 20 years. THAT is PC product life (replace all hardware with every OS "upgrade"), not PDP product life. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 15 16:04:41 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:04:41 -0400 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <44E211AF.8080905@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608152117.k7FLHwCi063785@keith.ezwind.net> >der Mouse wrote: >>>> I think TIFF is a mistake; I'd use JPEG, at about 5K to 10K per >>>> square inch for color, or about 1/3 that for monochrome. >>> Umm, ten thousand dpi!? >> >> Ten thousand pixels per *square* inch is only 100 per *linear* inch. >I read that as "ten thousand BYTES" per sq in. :> Color/gray scale depth will have the most effect on compression and the resulting loss. There is a huge storage differance between the compressibility of a 1bpp image and an eight bit grayscale of the same image. at 1bbp that is only 1250 bytes or at 4bpp that is 10,000 nibbles or 5k bytes :-) I find scanning at 150dpi 8 bit makes a nice general scan, a modest boost in contrast aids greatily in improving compression while at the same time darkening fine lines. Fine artwork sometimes require 300 or 600 dpi depending on how it was printed and how much magnification I require. Don previously stated: >The size of the *original* document is important as it has been scaled down to print on a page 1/4 it's original size. I.e. you start to approach the resolution of the marking engine (e.g., 1 pixel wide lines) which, mathematically, looks like a very high frequency component. >From a grayscale point of view a single pixel can have weight or intensity and can represent a thin or thick line. Just because my printer thinks it can print 2400dpi does not change the fact a 150 dpi image is quite acceptable built from those little dots using the printers built in dithering. My question is are we trying to make high grade reproductions of artwork or trying to preserve the information in the format of a small readable scans ? To keep this all in perspective, my 21.5" Viewsonic is a 100 lpi or 1600x1400x24bits. Items scaned at 100 dpi can displayed on screen at 1"=1". I like to use 150dpi as giving me a 50% enlargement when viewing actual pixels and 150dpi translates 1x1 to printing 150 Lins per inch on a 600 dpi laser printer. That makes works out to be 4 printed toner points per scaned pixel which makes a nice visually acceptable reproduction. As for enlargement or in the origional case reductions, they are best done at scan time by changing the DPI setting on the scan and not attempting it in software later. That about 3 cents worth, YMMV :-) Bob Bradlee From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 15 16:08:53 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:08:53 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <20060815214618.7109df42@SirToby.dinner41.de> References: <0J41006HNH4E6MP6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <200608151233.20920.rtellason@verizon.net> <20060815214618.7109df42@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: <200608151408530154.39E11FA5@10.0.0.252> On 8/15/2006 at 9:46 PM Jochen Kunz wrote: >> > I shave off the top of the DS1287s and replace the cell. It's easy >> > to find the battery on those as it's magnetic! >> Interesting! Isn't there a non-battery version of these chips? That is, a regular old DIP version with external leads for a battery? Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 15 16:29:37 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:29:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Batteries ( was Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory) Message-ID: <200608152129.k7FLTbor064056@keith.ezwind.net> --- Don wrote: > O. Sharp wrote: >> snip << > > > > I have mini-Maglites in my toolkit - three of 'e m, > and they all get use; I > > work in the dark a great deal, but that's anothe r > story * - and recently > > had the unpleasant surprise of having one of the > "regular" batteries > > corrode and die (and the batteries had been > replaced less than a month > > earlier). This did an _astonishingly_ effective > job of destroying the > > interior of the Maglite as well, the acids eatin g > away the Maglite's > > shell in a way I literally didn't think was > possible. Defective battery? > > Some other problem? We may never know. > > What brand of battery? I haven't seen a battery > fail like this > in decades. Was the light stored in a harsh > environment? > > > Whatever the cause, I'd hate to even _contemplat e_ > the idea of that > > possibly happening right next to a DEC backplane . > Yeah, what brand? Have you heard (I read this today) that Dell has been forced to RECALL 4.1 MILLION batteries , made by Sony (haha!), from there notebook computer thingies made from... *checks dates* ...April 2004 to July 2006! Why? Because of a risk of "smoke and/or fire". On a similar note, a heard of mobile phones exploding (yes, exploding) in Japan a couple of years ago, because they weren't using the recommended rechargeable batteries. Apparently, IIRC, if the batteries short out they become VERY hot (700 degrees C?) and explode like a grenade. Many of the owners of said phones were hospitalised and/or had hands/ears blown off :( Also, after the recent hot spell (36 degrees C) here in the UK I discovered that one of the batteries in a remote had leaked. I put it down to the extreme heat (in 27 years I have only seen a battery that has leaked twice now), as in my experience it's a rare occerance (unless the battery is really old). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Aug 15 16:43:56 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:43:56 -0700 Subject: Micom Data Concentrator In-Reply-To: <44E2339C.1070507@srv.net> References: <44E2339C.1070507@srv.net> Message-ID: <44E2401C.4070700@msm.umr.edu> Kevin Handy wrote: > Christian Corti wrote: > >> Hi, >> > > 1. Leased line (usually 2 pair). Will be either a screw-on connector > or a phone type of connector to hook them up. > > 2. Synchronous modem. Will have a DB-25 connector for the modem. > Depends on the mux if it will work with some cross-over cable. I had good luck one time testing two Micom modems which were sync as in (2) above using two Racal Vadic 1251 modems with the transmit and recieve pairs directly connected as an expensive (at the time) modem eliminator. 9600 baud sync IIRC Jim From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 15 16:50:54 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:50:54 -0700 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <200608152117.k7FLHwCi063785@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608152117.k7FLHwCi063785@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <44E241BE.1030806@dakotacom.net> Bob wrote: > Don previously stated: >> The size of the *original* document is important as it has been >> scaled down to print on a page 1/4 it's original size. I.e. >> you start to approach the resolution of the marking engine >> (e.g., 1 pixel wide lines) which, mathematically, looks like >> a very high frequency component. > > From a grayscale point of view a single pixel can have weight or intensity and can represent a thin or thick line. > Just because my printer thinks it can print 2400dpi does not change the fact a 150 dpi image is quite > acceptable built from those little dots using the printers built in dithering. Right. *But*, if you take something that was *created* for a large format (e.g., D size) and *print* it at a much smaller format (e.g., B size), then the printing software scales the image down before sending it to the printer (and, ultimately, the marking engine therein). Lines/features get *finer* (of necessity). For example, one of the signals on the drawing I was just now examining is "AddressTerminalCount". 20 characters. It occupies 1 inch (width) on the *original* drawing. Reproduced on B-size media, that's 0.5". Even if you assume a really crappy typeface design (e.g., 5x7), that's 120 "print elements" wide (i.e., 20 * (5+1)). Of course, the actual typeface is much nicer/finer than that but I don't have the time to figure out what exactly how fine-grained it is. :> So, you have to resolve 120 dots in 0.5". That's already pushing the limits of a 300dpi scan if you don't want to end up with just a hieroglyphic blur! :> So, scan at 400dpi or better (in this example) and/or expect the text to look AS IF it was rendered as a 5x7 typeface would have been. :-( > My question is are we trying to make high grade reproductions of artwork > or trying to preserve the information in the format of a small > readable scans ? In my case, I want to be able to unambiguously resolve the original document's content AFTER scanning. Without having to scratch my head and wonder: "Is that an 'O' or a '0'?" I'd rather scan at 800dpi, e.g., and rely on a compression technology to make that "affordable" than have to live with a "cheaper" scan and some potential ambiguity (which I will undoubtedly only discover MUCH LATER -- after the originals have been discarded!) > As for enlargement or in the origional case reductions, they are best done at scan time by changing the DPI > setting on the scan and not attempting it in software later. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 15 17:07:47 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:07:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Computers and heat density Message-ID: <200608152207.k7FM7lFf065026@keith.ezwind.net> --- Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Dave McGui re > > > > On Aug 14, 2006, at 3:38 PM, Ray Arachelian wrot e: >> snip << > > > > Yes, and fortunately, they all have power > switches. ;) > > > > That is, until they use power from *you*... Anyon e > remember > B.A.T. for the Amiga? ( > http://www.lemonamiga.com/games/details.php?id=128 ) > The character you played had a computer implanted > into his wrist. > > Cheers, > > Bryan > Thanks for the link to that site. I managed to look up US Gold and saw quite a few games that I actually have for my Spectrum (e.g. Gauntlet 2 & 3) and one of the best games of all time IMO - Flashback, which I have for the Sega MegaDrive. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Aug 15 17:00:06 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:00:06 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 36, Issue 50 In-Reply-To: <000f01c6c08d$fe3fbeb0$6c00a8c0@barry> References: <000f01c6c08d$fe3fbeb0$6c00a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <44E243E6.9000602@pacbell.net> Barry Watzman wrote: > Re: > > > But doesn't JPEG use lossy compression? > > >Yes. And it blows thick industrial-waste chunks on any > >graphics that are non-photographic. > > >Peace... Sridhar > > Bull Agreed. > Take a look at the stuff I've scanned on Howard Harte's site, including > schematics, for example this one: > > http://www.hartetechnologies.com/manuals/Cromemco/Cromemco%20Bytesaver%20II. > pdf > > They are fine. Keep in mind that almost every PDF file that was produced by > scanning is a JPEG internally. Sure, there are lots of such files that are > crap, there are lots of bad scanners (referring to both the hardware and the > people that use them). But there are also some that are excellent, superb, > indistinguishable from the original. And since they are all JPEGs, JPEG can > do this with no discernable compromise IF YOU DON'T TRY TO OVER-COMPRESS. I disagree with the "all scanned PDF files are jpegs", including this one. > [The schematic in the Bytesaver manual was almost unreadable in the original > printed format, extremely fine, extremely faint lines, but take a look, for > example, at the drawing on page 10 of the manual (page 12 of the PDF file).] Barry, there may be places here and there in the manual where things aren't bi-level, but everything I have looked at is bilevel, including that image. Zoom in and you'll see the characteristic stair-step on the edges of characters. Acrobat has smarts where even if you scan grayscale, it will classify bilevel stuff and use G3/G4/JBIG (as per settings) or it will use a deeper image format with none/jpeg/jpeg2000 (as per settings). Zoom in at 2400% settings and see for yourself. Or taking another approach -- this document has 61 pages, and the page were 8.5" x 11" probably. The document is also 451 KB, or 7.4 KB/page, much less than the 3.3 KB/in^2 that you recommend for jpeg. Even if you disagree with my claims above, *something* is making this doc much smaller than what you'd expect from jpeg encoding. Another thing that can be confusing is that even when an image is bilevel, acrobat will convert to grayscale on display up to some zoom level. If you aren't zoomed in enough, things look like they have grayscale edges, but zoom in enough and you'll see it was reconstructing the graylevels by doing some filtering. From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Aug 15 17:00:06 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:00:06 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 36, Issue 50 In-Reply-To: <000f01c6c08d$fe3fbeb0$6c00a8c0@barry> References: <000f01c6c08d$fe3fbeb0$6c00a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <44E243E6.9000602@pacbell.net> Barry Watzman wrote: > Re: > > > But doesn't JPEG use lossy compression? > > >Yes. And it blows thick industrial-waste chunks on any > >graphics that are non-photographic. > > >Peace... Sridhar > > Bull Agreed. > Take a look at the stuff I've scanned on Howard Harte's site, including > schematics, for example this one: > > http://www.hartetechnologies.com/manuals/Cromemco/Cromemco%20Bytesaver%20II. > pdf > > They are fine. Keep in mind that almost every PDF file that was produced by > scanning is a JPEG internally. Sure, there are lots of such files that are > crap, there are lots of bad scanners (referring to both the hardware and the > people that use them). But there are also some that are excellent, superb, > indistinguishable from the original. And since they are all JPEGs, JPEG can > do this with no discernable compromise IF YOU DON'T TRY TO OVER-COMPRESS. I disagree with the "all scanned PDF files are jpegs", including this one. > [The schematic in the Bytesaver manual was almost unreadable in the original > printed format, extremely fine, extremely faint lines, but take a look, for > example, at the drawing on page 10 of the manual (page 12 of the PDF file).] Barry, there may be places here and there in the manual where things aren't bi-level, but everything I have looked at is bilevel, including that image. Zoom in and you'll see the characteristic stair-step on the edges of characters. Acrobat has smarts where even if you scan grayscale, it will classify bilevel stuff and use G3/G4/JBIG (as per settings) or it will use a deeper image format with none/jpeg/jpeg2000 (as per settings). Zoom in at 2400% settings and see for yourself. Or taking another approach -- this document has 61 pages, and the page were 8.5" x 11" probably. The document is also 451 KB, or 7.4 KB/page, much less than the 3.3 KB/in^2 that you recommend for jpeg. Even if you disagree with my claims above, *something* is making this doc much smaller than what you'd expect from jpeg encoding. Another thing that can be confusing is that even when an image is bilevel, acrobat will convert to grayscale on display up to some zoom level. If you aren't zoomed in enough, things look like they have grayscale edges, but zoom in enough and you'll see it was reconstructing the graylevels by doing some filtering. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 15 17:36:11 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:36:11 -0400 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <44E241BE.1030806@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608152249.k7FMnTlW065898@keith.ezwind.net> Using your 120 ppi 1" example at "D" size scanned at 800 dpi scaled dow to "B" size at .5 inch gives you a effictive print size of 1600 dpi. Scanning at 300dpi will give you a print resolution at 50% reduction of 600dpi which is the pratical limit of my laser printer. With that said, I have been known to scan some small things at 1200 dpi and then print at 150 lpi and end up with a 8x magnification while still retaining the 1x1 scan to print pixel relationship. Are you starting with "D" or "B" and what is your destination size ? If you are attempting to recover "D size" information from a previous "B size reduction" then the scan resoultion should be set to 1.5 (2 times max) the desired final print resolution for best results. Note: you will never get past the loss of detail caused by the origional reduction from D to B size. I have a D size plotter that has a native resolution of 600 dpi and a 600 dpi laser printer. When printing the same D size 1x1 drawing to both, the laser printer will reduce the image to the point where I have an equilivant image as if I had made a a 75 dpi scan of the full size 600lpi D size plot printed 1x1. If I am going to scan the smaller laser image to try to get back to a printable "D" size image than 800 dpi sounds about right to me. I understand your desire to retain detail , but remind you the upper limit to usefull resolution is about 1.5x the destination print or display resolution, and it is hard to beat 1x1 for efficancy. later Bob On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:50:54 -0700, Don wrote: >Bob wrote: >> Don previously stated: >>> The size of the *original* document is important as it has been >>> scaled down to print on a page 1/4 it's original size. I.e. >>> you start to approach the resolution of the marking engine >>> (e.g., 1 pixel wide lines) which, mathematically, looks like >>> a very high frequency component. >> >> From a grayscale point of view a single pixel can have weight or intensity and can represent a thin or thick line. >> Just because my printer thinks it can print 2400dpi does not change the fact a 150 dpi image is quite >> acceptable built from those little dots using the printers built in dithering. >Right. *But*, if you take something that was *created* for a large >format (e.g., D size) and *print* it at a much smaller format >(e.g., B size), then the printing software scales the image down >before sending it to the printer (and, ultimately, the marking >engine therein). Lines/features get *finer* (of necessity). >For example, one of the signals on the drawing I was just now >examining is "AddressTerminalCount". 20 characters. It occupies >1 inch (width) on the *original* drawing. Reproduced on B-size >media, that's 0.5". >Even if you assume a really crappy typeface design (e.g., 5x7), >that's 120 "print elements" wide (i.e., 20 * (5+1)). Of course, >the actual typeface is much nicer/finer than that but I don't >have the time to figure out what exactly how fine-grained it is. >:> >So, you have to resolve 120 dots in 0.5". That's already >pushing the limits of a 300dpi scan if you don't want to >end up with just a hieroglyphic blur! :> >So, scan at 400dpi or better (in this example) and/or >expect the text to look AS IF it was rendered as a 5x7 >typeface would have been. :-( >> My question is are we trying to make high grade reproductions of artwork > > or trying to preserve the information in the format of a small > > readable scans ? >In my case, I want to be able to unambiguously resolve the original >document's content AFTER scanning. Without having to scratch my >head and wonder: "Is that an 'O' or a '0'?" >I'd rather scan at 800dpi, e.g., and rely on a compression technology >to make that "affordable" than have to live with a "cheaper" >scan and some potential ambiguity (which I will undoubtedly >only discover MUCH LATER -- after the originals have been >discarded!) >> As for enlargement or in the origional case reductions, they are best done at scan time by changing the DPI >> setting on the scan and not attempting it in software later. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 15 17:14:31 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 23:14:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-8 semiconductor memory In-Reply-To: <036901c6c020$a157a540$6700a8c0@vrs> from "vrs" at Aug 14, 6 09:09:39 pm Message-ID: > > From: "Al Kossow" > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/msc/MSC3102_PDP8semiMem.pdf > > That one is much clearer, though I cannot find the logic in it > (if any) that inhibits reads when using the bootstrap cards. The bootstrap ROM in my 8/e is a diode matrix ROM that doesn't appear in the memory map. When you flip the 'SW' switch, the boot ROM pretends to be a front panel and copies itself into the appropriate bit of core. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 15 17:26:52 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 23:26:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <44E1F3E6.9000005@dakotacom.net> from "Don" at Aug 15, 6 09:18:46 am Message-ID: > > I have mini-Maglites in my toolkit - three of 'em, and they all get use; I > > work in the dark a great deal, but that's another story * - and recently > > had the unpleasant surprise of having one of the "regular" batteries > > corrode and die (and the batteries had been replaced less than a month > > earlier). This did an _astonishingly_ effective job of destroying the > > interior of the Maglite as well, the acids eating away the Maglite's Actually, I thought the electrolyte was alkaline.... > > shell in a way I literally didn't think was possible. Defective battery? > > Some other problem? We may never know. > > What brand of battery? I haven't seen a battery fail like this > in decades. Was the light stored in a harsh environment? With some (most?) alkaline primary cells (the 'Duracell' type of thing), the outer casing of the cell is the +ve connection. There's an insulating sleeve around it, of course. And the outer casing of a Maglite is connected to the -ve side of the battery via the spring at the bottom end. So if the insualting sleeve on a cell fails, then that cell, or the whole battery, is shorted out. That will cause it to discharge darn fast, and probably leak. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 15 17:59:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:59:46 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608151559460029.3A46A321@10.0.0.252> On 8/15/2006 at 11:26 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Actually, I thought the electrolyte was alkaline.... It is--and stong alkaline solutions are bad news for aluminum, magnesium and zinc. Combines with the metal, liberating hydrogen. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 15 18:08:08 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 00:08:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <200608151559460029.3A46A321@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 15, 6 03:59:46 pm Message-ID: > > On 8/15/2006 at 11:26 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >Actually, I thought the electrolyte was alkaline.... > > It is--and stong alkaline solutions are bad news for aluminum, magnesium > and zinc. Combines with the metal, liberating hydrogen. Indeed. I was simply commenting on the OP's statement that the 'acid' made a right mess of the Maglite. Incidentally, if the corrosion isn't too bad, a good thing to use to clean it up is a chemically weak acid. I use citric acid, disolved in water and applied with a cotton bud. It's good on PCBs that have suffered from NiCd leakage, for example. -tony From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue Aug 15 18:35:01 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C. H. Dickman) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:35:01 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 semiconductor memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E25A25.9050305@nktelco.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> From: "Al Kossow" >>> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/msc/MSC3102_PDP8semiMem.pdf >> That one is much clearer, though I cannot find the logic in it >> (if any) that inhibits reads when using the bootstrap cards. > > The bootstrap ROM in my 8/e is a diode matrix ROM that doesn't appear in > the memory map. When you flip the 'SW' switch, the boot ROM pretends to > be a front panel and copies itself into the appropriate bit of core. The signal in question is ROM ADDRESS L. The MM8-E uses this as an extra select line, unconditionally deselecting when low. Presumably when the ROM decodes its address, it pulls this low, disabling all R/W memory. A neat way to make a hole. The MR8-E section of the maintenance manual confirms this. Another effect of ROM ADDRESS L is that it prevents the PC from being incremented (to skip over the return address) during the execute state of a JMS instruction. This is stated in the Small Computer Handbook and in the KK8-E Processor Flow Chart. The SCH says that this is to save a ROM location. Wouldn't a JMP instruction be just as effective? -chuck From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 15 18:58:12 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:58:12 -0700 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <200608152249.k7FMnTlW065898@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608152249.k7FMnTlW065898@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <44E25F94.5060904@dakotacom.net> Bob wrote: > Using your 120 ppi 1" example at "D" size scanned at 800 dpi No. There are (at least) 120 dots of information (assuming you could magically transform the actual typeface to a 5x7 rendition -- which seems to be the crudest representation that people can readily recognize) in that 1" of the D size original (which *I* don't have). That was printed at B-size. So, those 120 dots of information are now represented in a 0.5" physical span. Scanning this "240 dpi" data (again, *assuming* you could magically transform the original font to that crude of a representation) at 300dpi is a bit "if-fy". I am saying I would prefer to scan the *B* size drawing (which is what I *have* -- I also don't have a scanner that will handle anything larger than B size :> ) at 800dpi. This would correspond to scanning the original D-size drawing (if it was available in that form) at *400* dpi -- which I consider a reasonable resolution for preserving content. > scaled dow to "B" size at .5 inch gives you a effictive print size of 1600 dpi. I don't see where you came up with 1600dpi. You *lose* effective resolution, not gain it! (i.e. the image has been reduced prior to scanning) > Scanning at 300dpi will give you a print resolution at 50% reduction of 600dpi > which is the pratical limit of my laser printer. I'm advocating images scanned at ~400dpi IN THEIR ORIGINAL FORM. I.e. I would need to print 8 (?) A-size sheets at 400dpi and paste them together to get the original D-size drawing -- reproduced at 400dpi. The D-size original (with 120 "dots of information" per inch) was originally *printed* in a form that represented those 120 dots in half that space (B-size) -- which is recognizable (hmmm... do the Brits write "recognisable"?) on a *good* 300dpi printer (but quickly turns to crap when those sheets are later photocopied). I am not interested in *printing* D-size drawings. :> Rather, I want to reproduce their content in fine enough detail that I can *view* it on a screen and not see big black "ink blots" (Hmmm... why do they all look like *bacon*? ;-) where there should be *text*. > With that said, I have been known to scan some small things at 1200 dpi and then print at 150 lpi and end up with > a 8x magnification while still retaining the 1x1 scan to print pixel relationship. > > Are you starting with "D" or "B" and what is your destination size ? I typically create drawings as D-size. I.e., I set whatever CAD/EDA tool I am using for a "canvas" of that size. It's just too hard to draw anything "substantial" on B size originals (though C is sometimes acceptable). From these, I usually "print" B-size versions as working copies (because it is much cheaper to print B size than D size :> and, because D-size drawings take up a metric crapload of benchspace!). So, those "120 dots of information" per inch, get reproduced on a 300 - 600 dpi printer. That's usually reasonably legible. I usually end up keeping a set of *pristine* B-size drawings in my files (originals go to client, etc.). I.e., I don't keep photocopies (which are much crappier quality). I would like to be able to scan *these* and have "nice" digital copies of them. (I haven't always remembered to keep copies of the drawings in their original "digital" form; nor do I often have access to the *tools* with which I created those files -- even if I did manage to save copies of the files!) I can always tell the software that this is a D-size drawing *after* it has been scanned (by tweaking the document dimensions and letting the resolution adjust inversely). > If you are attempting to recover "D size" information from a previous > "B size reduction" then the scan resoultion should be set to 1.5 > (2 times max) the desired final print resolution for best results. > Note: you will never get past the loss of detail caused by the > origional reduction from D to B size. Correct. The issue is not losing *more*. I.e. you can read this text and realize it is reproduced at a greater "definition" (trying to avoid the word "resolution", here) than a simple 5x7 typeface. > I have a D size plotter that has a native resolution of 600 dpi and a 600 dpi laser printer. > When printing the same D size 1x1 drawing to both, the laser printer will reduce the image to the point where I > have an equilivant image as if I had made a a 75 dpi scan of the full size 600lpi D size plot printed 1x1. > > If I am going to scan the smaller laser image to try to get back to a printable "D" size image than 800 dpi sounds > about right to me. > > I understand your desire to retain detail , but remind you the upper limit to usefull resolution is about 1.5x the > destination print or display resolution, and it is hard to beat 1x1 for efficancy. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 15 19:13:16 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:13:16 +1200 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> Message-ID: On 8/15/06, vrs wrote: > From: "Ethan Dicks" > > OK. Is a DEC005 OMNIBUS-friendly? We used them on our Qbus COMBOARD, > > so that's the context I think of them in. > > Interesting question, even though I'd never design in a DEC005. They are > made of even more unobtainium than the regular tranceivers! Agreed. I have a few, but I used to make Qbus cards. For most folks, the only source is other cards. -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Aug 15 19:16:53 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <0J41006HNH4E6MP6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J41006HNH4E6MP6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, Allison wrote: > >Well, consider the Dallas battery-inside-the-chip clock-calendar circuits. > >7 years sounded like forever--and it may well have been to the original > >owners of the equipment. But now, they're starting to fade and finding > >replacements can be a bit of a hassle. In 20 years, it'll probably be > >nearly impossible. > > I shave off the top of the DS1287s and replace the cell. It's easy to find > the battery on those as it's magnetic! For anyone who's interested, here's a website with lots of pics on how to do this: http://www.giga.nl/computers/nvram/ I opted to epoxy a 2032 cell holder on top of the chip rather than run wires out to an AA holder. The result is on the above site. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 15 19:23:43 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:23:43 +1200 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <20060815181232.74075.qmail@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060815134501.059463c0@mail.30below.com> <20060815181232.74075.qmail@web82701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 8/16/06, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > The 5 volt parts have a write cycle limitation that's > not there with the 3.3 volt parts. Ah... I did not know that 3.3V FRAMs were substantially longer-lived than the original 5V versions. I'm still in favor of a pair of 62256s (since they are so common and very cheap), but if I were to do an FRAM board in the future, it's probably worth the extra buffers and regulator to get chips that will last. -ethan From ohh at drizzle.com Tue Aug 15 19:27:35 2006 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Quoth Tony Duell on my recent battery failure (and for those who have asked, they were typical off-the-shelf Eveready AAs): > Actually, I thought the electrolyte was alkaline.... Ah, okay. > > > shell in a way I literally didn't think was possible. Defective battery? > > > Some other problem? We may never know. > > > > What brand of battery? I haven't seen a battery fail like this > > in decades. Was the light stored in a harsh environment? Not at all. They've been in and out of my toolkit in the same manner for many years. (I treat them kindly. They're tools, so deserve good treatment for that alone; and if they fail, it's _ugly_ being stuck in the dark when scenery is coming at you very fast. ) > With some (most?) alkaline primary cells (the 'Duracell' type of thing), > the outer casing of the cell is the +ve connection. There's an insulating > sleeve around it, of course. And the outer casing of a Maglite is > connected to the -ve side of the battery via the spring at the bottom end. > > So if the insualting sleeve on a cell fails, then that cell, or the whole > battery, is shorted out. That will cause it to discharge darn fast, and > probably leak. Ahhh, that's likely what happened then. _Why_ it happened - how the insulating sleeve came to be damaged to begin with - may well remain a mystery, but a sleeve failure leading to a short->leakage->alkaline corrosion->mangling the interior of the Maglite certainly matches the damage I found. ...Anyway, rare an event as it may be, it would give me serious pause about using anything battery-backed in a classic mini. They're a _lot_ harder to come by than Maglites. :) :) -O.- From vrs at msn.com Tue Aug 15 19:32:42 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:32:42 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 semiconductor memory References: <44E25A25.9050305@nktelco.net> Message-ID: From: "C. H. Dickman" > Tony Duell wrote: > >> From: "Al Kossow" > >>> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/msc/MSC3102_PDP8semiMem.pdf > >> That one is much clearer, though I cannot find the logic in it > >> (if any) that inhibits reads when using the bootstrap cards. > > > > The bootstrap ROM in my 8/e is a diode matrix ROM that doesn't appear in > > the memory map. When you flip the 'SW' switch, the boot ROM pretends to > > be a front panel and copies itself into the appropriate bit of core. > The signal in question is ROM ADDRESS L. The MM8-E uses this as an extra > select line, unconditionally deselecting when low. Presumably when the > ROM decodes its address, it pulls this low, disabling all R/W memory. A > neat way to make a hole. The MR8-E section of the maintenance manual > confirms this. Thanks! (I had eventually figured this first part out :-).) > Another effect of ROM ADDRESS L is that it prevents the PC from being > incremented (to skip over the return address) during the execute state > of a JMS instruction. This is stated in the Small Computer Handbook and > in the KK8-E Processor Flow Chart. The SCH says that this is to save a > ROM location. Wouldn't a JMP instruction be just as effective? This was news to me. I wonder if the CPU still wastes a cycle trying to store the return address. Anyway, this is just the level of information I was looking for. Often in the schematic I can puzzle out what is being done, but not why. If I don't know the why, then I can't figure out if whatever they're doing is relevant to whatever I'm trying to do. Another example is that the bitsavers document Al referred me to latches the RAM data (using STROBE), rather than having the RAM continue to maintain it. I don't know why they did that, so I can't tell if it is important for me to do it too. (I can get a much lower component count if I can just "stretch" my SRAM read until the cpu has seen the data.) Vince From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Aug 15 21:05:33 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 22:05:33 -0400 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <44E211AF.8080905@dakotacom.net> References: <000a01c6c013$2d462080$6c00a8c0@barry> <200608151749.NAA15364@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44E211AF.8080905@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608152205.33889.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 15 August 2006 14:25, Don wrote: > der Mouse wrote: > >>> I think TIFF is a mistake; I'd use JPEG, at about 5K to 10K per > >>> square inch for color, or about 1/3 that for monochrome. > >> > >> Umm, ten thousand dpi!? > > > > Ten thousand pixels per *square* inch is only 100 per *linear* inch. > > I read that as "ten thousand BYTES" per sq in. :> Hmm, and if it were uncompressed TIFF, 10k per sq in would be 280 dpi at 1bpp. So, it's actually BIGGER in size than a typical G4 compressed TIFF at 300-400bpi... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 15 07:49:20 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:49:20 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: <0J4100F29I6H5612@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory > From: Don > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:42:59 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> On Monday 14 August 2006 19:43, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> On 8/15/06, woodelf wrote: >>>> If you use 2167's ( 16k x 1 ) ram's >>>> you can have 16k of memory ( 12 chips ) for >>>> about $25 not counting glue logic and other stuff. >>> Why not use a pair of 62256s? 32Kx16 and ignore 4 bits. It'd even be >>> easy to use a Dallas DS1210 or something like it to provide battery >>> backup. >> >> I'd probably do something like what the SBC-6120 does... use some typical 486 >> motherboard cache SRAM. Cheap, and relatively easy to find. :) > >Outrageous overkill. What's that, 10ns memory? What's the 8's >memory cycle time?? ;-) PDP-8 is slow, 1.2 to 1.6us memory cycle time (read, modify, write) so anything under 500ns is overkill. Cache rams can cycle fast, those from 486boards were typically in the 15- 25ns range. However, overkill is ok as finding a source for show rams is unlikely (old 2102s were orignally that slow). Since most parts I have like the Alliance 7C256 are cmos slowing them down also allows for lower power. Even if they were NMOS a mere 25ma (I have some old 61256s) standby would still allow for short term backup as its only two of them. Since the system is not portable (it is a PDP8!) and lives near outlets a wall wart of small size could easily supply the power for the entire memory rather than resort to battery. For my case it's not an issue, it's ok if it forgets after power off. Usually when I demonstrate the PDP-8 I like to toggle in a 20word program to do inchworm on the accumulator lamps. So even if it forgot wheres the harm. I went through the exercise above to point out that with some imagination there are solutions. Allison > >> You'd end up with one or two chips to do 32k x 12. >> >> Pat From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 15 07:51:51 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:51:51 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 semiconductor memory Message-ID: <0J41003EFIAORPM2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: PDP-8 semiconductor memory > From: Al Kossow > Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 16:21:58 -0700 > To: "classiccmp at classiccmp.org" > > >http://bitsavers.org/pdf/msc/MSC3102_PDP8semiMem.pdf > > Thanks, thats information! Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 15 07:58:36 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 08:58:36 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: <0J4100C0BILXX3D2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Of 75 emails this morning, 44 (including 4 of mine) were on the subject of PDP-8 memory. From those only two provided any information on the subject. A few were well off track. Signal to noise -13db! In any other media that far down in the noise would be an unreadable signal. Allison From dm.hunt at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 15 09:40:18 2006 From: dm.hunt at ntlworld.com (David Hunt) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:40:18 +0100 Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <003b01c6c078$bdd37c00$3201a8c0@hal> > Hi, > > I usually don't bother compressing TIF's of scanned images -- > since I'm not too concerned with saving space for small documents. > > But, recently, I started scanning B-size drawings (e.g., > print sets for projects I've worked on). > Usually, I have to scan these at higher resolutions (because > I often print B size versions of D size drawings :< ). > > The larger sheet size and higher scan resolutions are > starting to make single sheets quite *large*! > > Suggestions? I had thought of FAX encoding (naive but it > should work well on line drawings/schematics)... > > Thanks! > --don I use PNG format at 300dpi, a colour A4 (8.26" x 11.7") page weighs in at around 17MB and a monochrome page at 5MB. I haven't needed to scan only black and white, most diagrams tend to be naturally aliased so monochrome scanning produces nicer results than line-art. Using PNG, I haven't noticed any compression artifacts. e.g. monochrome page colour page Dave ;) From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Aug 15 12:22:39 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:22:39 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <200608151233.20920.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <0J41006HNH4E6MP6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <200608151233.20920.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1155662560.21264.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 12:33 -0400, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 15 August 2006 08:26 am, Allison wrote: > > I shave off the top of the DS1287s and replace the cell. It's easy to find > > the battery on those as it's magnetic! > > Interesting! What tooling do you use to do this? Don't know about the original poster, but I plug them into a scrap ethernet card, and carefully remove the epoxy with a grinder. Probably a small dremel-type tool would be better than a 4" angle grinder, but I haven't had any failures yet. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Aug 15 12:35:34 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:35:34 +0100 Subject: slick bits in computers (WAS: VAXen Rule!) In-Reply-To: <44DB2FB9.6090303@gmail.com> References: <44DA4DB4.2070101@neurotica.com> <44DA5050.9080807@gmail.com> <200608091810.05886.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44DA9DD7.8020902@gmail.com> <44DB1FDE.2020207@neurotica.com> <44DB2FB9.6090303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1155663334.21264.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-08-10 at 09:08 -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >>>>> I like PDP-11s because they have personality and soul. > >>>> *That* is the primary reason I like mainframes. And European cars. > >>> I hate to break it to you, Sridhar, but your Camry isn't a European > >>> car. :) > >> I drive an Audi A8 4.2 Quattro. > > > > ...and I put an Origin 2000 into the trunk of said Quattro a couple of > > months ago. That's a damn fine automobile our skinny beige friend has, > > there. I nearly beat him over the head and took it home. =) > > I was quite surprised that it fit so easily. I believe there were three > O200's in there too. I fitted: A MicroVAX 3300 A MicroVAX II with a tape drive and two whacking great Fujitsu Eagles all cables for the above some spares too Fairly comprehensive grey wall a non-disassembleable 19" cabinet about 4' tall (for the MVII) some other random bits like 80s home computers into my 1988 Citro?n CX. It took nearly 20 seconds to lift to running height. I shudder to think what kind of weight was in it, and what kind of pressure on the hydraulics. But it belted up from Manchester to Glasgow at a steady 95mph quite happily, if a little thirstier than usual. Gordon. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 15 19:58:11 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:58:11 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: <0J42008N9FX2DT93@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:13:16 +1200 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 8/15/06, vrs wrote: >> From: "Ethan Dicks" >> > OK. Is a DEC005 OMNIBUS-friendly? We used them on our Qbus COMBOARD, >> > so that's the context I think of them in. >> >> Interesting question, even though I'd never design in a DEC005. They are >> made of even more unobtainium than the regular tranceivers! I have a selection of DEC0XX parts on hand from my days in the mill. >Agreed. I have a few, but I used to make Qbus cards. For most folks, >the only source is other cards. Or plain TTL. LS241 is a good reciever for Q, U or Omnibus (Schmitt inputs) and 74LS38 makes a good open collector driver. There are others. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 15 20:09:35 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:09:35 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: <0J42003A4GG1RVF5@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:23:43 +1200 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 8/16/06, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >> The 5 volt parts have a write cycle limitation that's >> not there with the 3.3 volt parts. > >Ah... I did not know that 3.3V FRAMs were substantially longer-lived >than the original 5V versions. I'm still in favor of a pair of 62256s >(since they are so common and very cheap), but if I were to do an FRAM >board in the future, it's probably worth the extra buffers and >regulator to get chips that will last. I'd not use FRAMSs for PDP-8 as the need to write the subroutine return address at the begining of the subroutine would beat up some locations a lot. Also the write cycle does have delays while writing goes on. A better use for FRAMS is disk emulation. Lower number of write cycles but lots of reads. A few of them could easily emulate a RK05f. Even a pair of 32k SRAMS can emulate an RX08 (only faster!). One forgets that a PDP-8 system with a few megabytes of storage is a BIG 8! When you consider that SRAMS ar available to the 512kbyte range or larger and the prices are low. It's very easy to consider semiconductor disks in the megabyte range. If you resort to using DRAMS I have a pound of 30pin 1mb simms that easily could be used for a large disk simulation. Allison From William.Cooper at sungard.com Tue Aug 15 14:06:19 2006 From: William.Cooper at sungard.com (William.Cooper at sungard.com) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:06:19 -0400 Subject: For users of Telenex / AR Datascopes... Message-ID: Kevin, I have a an Interview 7200 Turbo that I need to have repaired. It powers up and the fan comes on but no screen. Do you think you can fix it ? I also have Interview datascopes that need repair in storage. My Philadelphia facility also has some lying around as we have not been able to find a place to repair them. Please give me a call. Regards, Bill Cooper Senior DCE SunGard Availability Services 777 Cental Blvd. Carlstadt, NJ 07072 Phone: 201 729 2484 william.cooper at sungard.com Hours: Mon-Weds 730am to 830pm M-T 730am to 930pm W From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 16 01:58:39 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 02:58:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Scanning formats In-Reply-To: <20060815185314.GB26080@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <44E01D13.6020706@dakotacom.net> <44E208EA.7000707@pacbell.net> <200608151121080206.39478CE9@10.0.0.252> <20060815185314.GB26080@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <200608160700.DAA00927@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> So, you're fortunate if you can get 80% accuracy with an OCR engine. > But what if you use mutiple OCR programs? Say, three different OCR > programs and then process the results taking a majority vote on each > resulting character? Even if all three mangle 20%, it won't always > be the *same* 20% across all three, right? (and if I did my math > right, using three 80% accurate programs reduces the error rate to > just 0.8% or a 99.2% accuracy rate) That figure is right *if* those 20% errors are independent and randomly distributed. I doubt that either part of that is so - they will all tend to error on the dubious characters (FWVO "dubious"), if nothing else. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From derschjo at msu.edu Wed Aug 16 01:59:09 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 23:59:09 -0700 Subject: Archived a few PERQ games... Message-ID: <44E2C23D.5000100@msu.edu> I've spent a few hours this evening transferring software from my PERQ over the serial port at 9600 baud, and I thought I'd share them, since there don't seem to be many games archived on the 'net (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that count :). Thus far I've archived binaries & source for: - PERQMan (seems to be an early version, looks like a 100% clone of Pac-Man, vs. the changed sprites & "Perq Interactive Debugger" name I've seen in screenshots) - Chess - Puzzle These are available at: http://yahozna.dhs.org/computers/software/PERQ/ These all compile and run under POS (I have D.6 running on my machine). If I'm wasting my time (i.e. if these bits have already been archived somewhere, let me know so I don't spend more time painfully extracting these files one at a time over a serial link...) There are a handful of other games and utilities (a vt52 emulator, a Pente game, etc..) that I'll be getting to sometime later this week. Additionally, I'm working on archiving a raw image of the 14" Shugart in my PERQ (again, over the serial port). I've written a simple pascal program to do the dumping and I'm doing it 10 cylinders at a time since it takes so long :). My goal eventually is to write a PERQ emulator, but we'll see how that turns out... Josh From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Wed Aug 16 07:40:19 2006 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Madcrow Maxwell) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 08:40:19 -0400 Subject: Data General Nova/Eclipse Software download Message-ID: <8dd2d95c0608160540s355ba636jb0a64cbb329037c0@mail.gmail.com> I've decided to try out the Data General emulation in SIMH and am looking for software. Is there any place that has software for RDOS like extra programming languages, games and productivity-type stuff? If not is anybody willing to share? Mike "Madcrow" K. From marvin at rain.org Wed Aug 16 07:49:07 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 05:49:07 -0700 Subject: Front Panel Identification Message-ID: <44E31443.9784CB3E@rain.org> I ran across this front panel; does anyone know what it might have gone to? FYI, the file is about 1 MB in size. http://www.rain.org/~marvin/frtpanel.jpg I was told this came from Lobo Drives, but I can't imagine what they might have used it for. The markings on the left are not clear in the photo. The box is labeled "Register Select", the left column is marked "Display", and the right column is marked "Enter". The 18 position switch (0 - 17) is marked "Register Select", and switches are marked with such things as "Rosar", "Start Address", "Stop Address", "Spare Address", etc., and the top lamps look like maybe register contents and are marked CA, CB, CV, CK, CN, CH, CL, CW, etc. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 16 08:07:24 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 09:07:24 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <200608150852200420.38BF5317@10.0.0.252> References: <0J3Y003TPFNUVEW6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <44E0AAC4.2090202@nktelco.net> <44E0AED4.5030507@gmx.net> <44E10741.704@jetnet.ab.ca> <44E11FFA.3030307@nktelco.net> <44E130A6.20404@sbcglobal.net> <6efbad50170abe7ddd527aef11b20863@neurotica.com> <200608150852200420.38BF5317@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <2dd3a9be021798f31cd78d213179b493@neurotica.com> On Aug 15, 2006, at 11:52 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Don't FRAMs have a maximum write count? >> >> Well yes, 10^14 writes! ;) > > So, let's see--for a system powered on and writing once per microsecond > would hae 10^8 seconds worth of writing; given that there are about > 3*10^7 > seconds in a year, that would be roughly 3.3 years of continuous > operation, > no? > > But the Ramtron squib for the FM18L08 says: > > "FRAM is known for high write-endurance. Until now, some applications > needed more cycles than FRAM could offer. No longer! The FM18L08 offers > virtually unlimited read/write cycles. You can now access each address > a > million times per second for hundreds of years with no wear out. " > > So, is 10^14 an accurate figure? Well I got it from this month's Circuit Cellar article on FRAMs, which I happened to have open on my desk when this came up. I've not checked any datasheets. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Aug 16 08:32:21 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 09:32:21 -0400 Subject: The TIFF versus JPG debate In-Reply-To: <200608160627.k7G6RCf6003659@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <006201c6c138$6749ffb0$6400a8c0@barry> Re: I thought PDF's could just be used to *encapsulate* regular TIFF's? I.e., in much the same way that they can encapsulate JPEGs, etc. It can; in fact, when you create a PDF from a scanner, encapsulation is all that Acrobat is doing, it's the scanner software that determines the format, which can be tiff, jpeg or some other formats that the scanner software supports. But by default, it is almost always JPEG. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 16 06:04:04 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 07:04:04 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: <0J4300CXE7YOYKQ4@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:33:20 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Tuesday 15 August 2006 08:26 am, Allison wrote: >> I shave off the top of the DS1287s and replace the cell. It's easy to find >> the battery on those as it's magnetic! > >Interesting! What tooling do you use to do this? > The 1287s I did this to were made with a second layer of plastic over the origninal 28pin dip. Simple problem to grind through the plast to the battery, remove it and solder leads to the remaining connections. At various times I've used, hot soldering iron, belt sander, coarse file to get down to the battery. Rude and crude ut then again I the chip was bad already so it wasn't like I was going to loose anything. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 16 06:23:44 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 07:23:44 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: <0J4300BKV8VHOQL6@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory > From: Don > Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:33:25 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Because most batteries have shelf life! The average battery dies in >> a few years from just sitting. The LI cells are designed for very long life. >> I have a few sub-C sized LI cells that are over 15 years old and going strong. > >The shelf life (self discharge rate) of most batteries is *MANY* >YEARS. The AAA cells I bought last year for my Visor have a >"expiration date" of 2013. While your wailing about your maglites your also talking about that mere 7 year shelf life. >A low power BBRAM design essentially falls below this self >discharge rate (unless you get sloppy with the design). >The real problem is ensuring that the batteries (i.e. the >equipment that they are stored in) doesn't sit in >temperature extremes, high humidity, etc. Yes, I know this from my first CMOS design back in the late 70s. Heat is a big factor even for the leakage current of the CMOS. >And, if you're storing your '8 in those conditions, I suspect >one of these days you'll be in for an unhappy surprise as >you "suddenly" discover components that have fatigued What has this to to do with the topic at hand? Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 16 06:26:08 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 07:26:08 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: <0J4300A6D8ZGZL60@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory > From: Don > Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:36:04 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: >>> But cache RAM is power hungry and has little practical chance >>> of being converted to BBSRAM >> >> Most are not, few if any of mine are not. NOTE: many of those rams >> are CMOS and at high cycle rates the power needed is impressive but >> in standby and low cycle rates the power drops significantly! Often >> they are spec'd at they fastest cycle time for power use as thats how >> PCs used them. > >CMOS power dissipation is a direct function of clock frequency. >*But*, you will find that at DC (which is where the device >operates when in sleep mode) there are huge differences in the >static Icc between different grades of SRAMs -- from the same >manufacturer and P/N. I thought I'd said that. Bit of work history, engineer and product engineer for a semi company that sold micros and ram. Allison From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Aug 16 08:59:53 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 09:59:53 -0400 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608160627.k7G6R1Gf003616@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <006301c6c13c$3fb01260$6400a8c0@barry> Re: >Barry Watzman wrote: >> I think TIFF is a mistake; I'd use JPEG, at about 5K to 10K per square >inch for color, or about 1/3 that for monochrome. > >Umm, ten thousand dpi!? I don't think so--that's 10K per "square inch". Linear resolution would be the square root of that--100 dpi, no? Cheers, Chuck *************** You are not reading what I said. I never said ANYTHING about "pixels". When I said 10K per square inch, that was not a reference to "pixels", it was a reference to finished JPEG file size. E.g. 10,000 BYTES total file size per square inch. You can do that with 100 dpi resolution, and you can do that (using a lot more compression) with 600 dpi resolution. But I have found that if you have a JPEG whose total file size is 5,000 to 10,000 bytes per square inch (500k to 1 megabyte for an 8.5" x 11" color page), then in my experience there will be NO detectable degradation compared to a lossless file format, for purposes of viewing, printing or OCR (but monochrome images can be a lot smaller than that). Again, the file size of a JPEG file is independent of resolution, the issue is "how much compression are you going to use". And I have no argument that if you use too much compression, the quality will be crap. But, at the same time, there is too much emotion connected with the fact that JPEG is "lossy" and TIFF is "lossless". If neither a person nor an OCR program can detect a difference, then the "losses" can be concluded to be both insignificant and irrelevant. It's not like an executable program where all losses are absolutely unacceptable. JPEG can be crap if you use a lot of compression, but if you don't get carried away and keep the compression low to moderate, I maintain that a JPEG file is indistinguishable from a TIFF file for all practical purposes. By the way, several people have asked what resolution I scan at, and the answer is 300 DPI MINIMUM for everything, but I sometimes scan at 600 dpi if there is extremely fine detail present. I've used 600 dpi for some schematics where the "original" in a manual was a blueprint-sized page reduced to 8.5" x 11" (or even 11" x 17") and it was already at the point where you needed a magnifying glass to read it. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 16 09:25:51 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 09:25:51 -0500 Subject: Vax parts needed (commercial) Message-ID: <01d701c6c13f$e22517e0$6700a8c0@BILLING> I received the following email.... >We are still using 2 VAX 9440s and 2 9210 computer mainframes at our >facility in Colorado Springs, Colorado. We are having problems finding >some parts, MCUs for the CPUs. Any help is appreciated. If anyone can help with parts for these machines please contact me off-list. Jay From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Aug 16 09:26:58 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 10:26:58 -0400 Subject: Scanning formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608161408.k7GE8dmY008603@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <007301c6c140$089aaca0$6400a8c0@barry> Re: I think his point was "adjust quality factor so resulting image file has a size of ~10KB per sq in of original document". E.g., A size is ~90 sq in so target a 1MB file size. (note that this would correspond to an UNCOMPRESSED TIFF scanned at 300dpi! -- did I do the math right? -- in which case, the whole argument starts to fall apart since a 300dpi TIFF *compressed* would be much smaller! Or, for that given size, a COMPRESSED TIFF could be scanned at a much higher resolution) **************** You do understand what I was saying; unlike others, you understood that I was talking about resulting file size, not pixels. However, in the last paragraph, you missed one point, which was that my guideline of 5k to 10K per square inch was for color photographs. For monochrome, I cut that by 2/3, so my guideline becomes more like 1.5k to 3k per square inch. And this is very conservative, for files that will be, for all practical purposes, indistinguishable from the original. For many if not most uses, you can actually go a lot smaller. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Aug 16 10:54:16 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 08:54:16 -0700 Subject: Catastrophe strikes Blue Feather's 'net presence Message-ID: <200608160854160141.6257E135@192.168.42.129> Murphy's having some real fun with me this week... It seems that the failure of the outside world to access Blue Feather's FTP site was only the beginning. Within a couple of hours after I started troubleshooting last night, I discovered that our entire domain, including mail and web servers, had disappeared from the 'net. The problem turned out to be (and I never saw this coming) -- our firewall/router! It had, apparently, decided that it was simply going to give up the ghost, and not give ANY indication in its (alleged) self-diagnostics. No amount of power-cycling has fixed it, so I am going to replace it. Post-haste, I would add. The original unit was a Watchguard Firebox II that I got as a freebie, but Watchguard's current products are way too expensive for my tastes. If anyone knows of a good, solid VPN router, in the $400-$500 (max) range, with at least the following features I would appreciate hearing about it. I'm currently looking at Zyxel (the Zywall 5) and Multitech (RouteFinder 830). --Must support 1:1 NAT mapping. --Must support at least IPSec VPN with 3DES or AES encryption, and the VPN client must be low-cost or included. --Preferably, should also support PPTP for when IPSec is blocked at the originating end (I've seen it happen). --Must be RACK-MOUNTED, as in it has rack ears or brackets. This is NOT negotiable. --The manufacturer must NOT, unlike Watchguard and Juniper Networks, nickle-and-dime its users to death for extra features. Thanks much, and I apologize for the hassles. I never saw this one coming... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From pechter at gmail.com Wed Aug 16 11:52:50 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:52:50 -0400 Subject: Catastrophe strikes Blue Feather's 'net presence In-Reply-To: <200608160854160141.6257E135@192.168.42.129> References: <200608160854160141.6257E135@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: I know this isn't a commercial firewall, but I've had great luck using IPCOP for emergency stuff like this. It does vpn and pptp. I've used a 1U rackmount box for this... We've got SnapGear's older stuff here at work for VPN along with some Pix stuff. The SnapGear is cheap and does vpn and pptp. We only have the low end SnapGear which isn't rack mount... but their larger stuff is. The SnapGear we have is five years old and just used for small pptp access to the office. They do have some larger stuff that rack mounts but ours is just this little compact appliance with dual ethernets that sits on a rack shelf in the lab with the rack mounted cisco stuff with it. Bill On 8/16/06, Bruce Lane wrote: > > Murphy's having some real fun with me this week... > > It seems that the failure of the outside world to access Blue > Feather's FTP site was only the beginning. Within a couple of hours after I > started troubleshooting last night, I discovered that our entire domain, > including mail and web servers, had disappeared from the 'net. > > The problem turned out to be (and I never saw this coming) -- our > firewall/router! It had, apparently, decided that it was simply going to > give up the ghost, and not give ANY indication in its (alleged) > self-diagnostics. > > No amount of power-cycling has fixed it, so I am going to replace > it. Post-haste, I would add. The original unit was a Watchguard Firebox II > that I got as a freebie, but Watchguard's current products are way too > expensive for my tastes. > > If anyone knows of a good, solid VPN router, in the $400-$500 > (max) range, with at least the following features I would appreciate hearing > about it. I'm currently looking at Zyxel (the Zywall 5) and Multitech > (RouteFinder 830). > > --Must support 1:1 NAT mapping. > --Must support at least IPSec VPN with 3DES or AES encryption, and > the VPN client must be low-cost or included. > --Preferably, should also support PPTP for when IPSec is blocked > at the originating end (I've seen it happen). > --Must be RACK-MOUNTED, as in it has rack ears or brackets. This > is NOT negotiable. > --The manufacturer must NOT, unlike Watchguard and Juniper > Networks, nickle-and-dime its users to death for extra features. > > Thanks much, and I apologize for the hassles. I never saw this one > coming... > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, > Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com > kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m > "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with > surreal ports?" > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 16 13:12:11 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:12:11 +0000 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <006301c6c13c$3fb01260$6400a8c0@barry> References: <006301c6c13c$3fb01260$6400a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <44E35FFB.9030202@yahoo.co.uk> Barry Watzman wrote: > But, at the same time, there is too much emotion connected with the fact > that JPEG is "lossy" and TIFF is "lossless". If neither a person nor an OCR > program can detect a difference, then the "losses" can be concluded to be > both insignificant and irrelevant. I see where you're coming from - but I also know that writing a TIFF decoder is pretty straightforward; I wouldn't fancy doing the same for either JPEG or PDF (not sure about PNG, but I get the impression that it's pretty simple in nature). > By the way, several people have asked what resolution I scan at, and the > answer is 300 DPI MINIMUM for everything, but I sometimes scan at 600 dpi if > there is extremely fine detail present. Agreed on the DPI front. What I tend to find unacceptable though, even on pure textual material, are bi-level scans - too much information from the original is lost, resulting in problems for subsequent OCR (unless the bi-level encoding was hand-tuned to match each scan individually, and even then it's far from perfect). Plus bi-level data I find is hell on the eyes when it comes to actually trying to read it! Personally I'd prefer to scan at maximum resolution and bit depth now, rather than having to come back and do it all again at a later date (by which time the source media may even be unobtainable) -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 16 13:00:57 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 11:00:57 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <0J4300BKV8VHOQL6@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J4300BKV8VHOQL6@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <44E35D59.7050203@dakotacom.net> Allison wrote: >> Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory >> From: Don >> >>> Because most batteries have shelf life! The average battery dies in >>> a few years from just sitting. The LI cells are designed for very long life. >>> I have a few sub-C sized LI cells that are over 15 years old and going strong. >> The shelf life (self discharge rate) of most batteries is *MANY* >> YEARS. The AAA cells I bought last year for my Visor have a >> "expiration date" of 2013. > > While your wailing about your maglites your also talking about that > mere 7 year shelf life. Check your attributions. You'll note *I* don't HAVE a maglite. *My* point was that batteries -- plain ORDINARY batteries -- have shelf lives much longer than "a few years from just sitting" (which was YOUR comment) >> A low power BBRAM design essentially falls below this self >> discharge rate (unless you get sloppy with the design). >> The real problem is ensuring that the batteries (i.e. the >> equipment that they are stored in) doesn't sit in >> temperature extremes, high humidity, etc. > > Yes, I know this from my first CMOS design back in the late 70s. > Heat is a big factor even for the leakage current of the CMOS. > >> And, if you're storing your '8 in those conditions, I suspect >> one of these days you'll be in for an unhappy surprise as >> you "suddenly" discover components that have fatigued > > What has this to to do with the topic at hand? If people are griping about the *possibility* of a battery leaking inside their gear, I contend that if you're storing that gear in conditions that would bring about this sort of problem (e.g., excessive ambient temperatures, humidity) then there are bound to be *other* things that are happening to that gear besides the potential of a battery leak. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 16 12:58:08 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 13:58:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Catastrophe strikes Blue Feather's 'net presence In-Reply-To: <200608160854160141.6257E135@192.168.42.129> References: <200608160854160141.6257E135@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <200608161759.NAA05698@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > --Must support at least IPSec VPN with 3DES or AES encryption, and > the VPN client must be low-cost or included. "The" VPN client? For what OS(es)? (Yes, ITS and CP/M, of course, but what others? :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 16 13:41:47 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 11:41:47 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <0J4300A6D8ZGZL60@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J4300A6D8ZGZL60@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <44E366EB.3090400@dakotacom.net> Allison wrote: >> Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory >> From: Don >> Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:36:04 -0700 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Allison wrote: >>>> But cache RAM is power hungry and has little practical chance >>>> of being converted to BBSRAM >>> Most are not, few if any of mine are not. NOTE: many of those rams >>> are CMOS and at high cycle rates the power needed is impressive but >>> in standby and low cycle rates the power drops significantly! Often >>> they are spec'd at they fastest cycle time for power use as thats how >>> PCs used them. >> CMOS power dissipation is a direct function of clock frequency. >> *But*, you will find that at DC (which is where the device >> operates when in sleep mode) there are huge differences in the >> static Icc between different grades of SRAMs -- from the same >> manufacturer and P/N. > > I thought I'd said that. Bit of work history, engineer and product > engineer for a semi company that sold micros and ram. Work history doesn't help list readers since they can only read what you've *written* (except for those few clairvoyants sitting in the back row...) :> You neglected to note that Icc grading *between* CMOS static RAMs AT DC varies SUBSTANTIALLY. Power consumption at operating frequency isn't an issue (here). Rather, the difference between Icc(standby) on a "regular" 62256 (e.g.) and a "low power" 62256. For example, a "standard" 62256 can draw ~1mA (1000uA) at standby. A "low power" 62256 can cut that to 100uA. A "super low power" 62256 can cut *that* to 25uA. A factor of 40. You can buy even LARGER devices (e.g. > 1MB -- B not b) that will idle at *2* uA. I.e. the data retention time of a well designed BBSRAM circuit *is* limited to the shelf life of the battery powering it (during standby). *But*, only if you select the right grade SRAM. Note that all three of the *power* grades of 62256 will consume the same amount of power AT OPERATING FREQUENCIES. Roughly 50mA. THAT is a function of clock speed (cycle time). However, the 40 fold variation in Icc(standby) is a different issue entirely. In my reread of your comments, I don't see *that* mentioned. :> (much of the 32KB devices you'll find in PC's and their ilk are not chosen for this very low Icc(standby) -- *especially* cache RAM!) To put things in perspective, a 1F supercap charged *nominally* to 5V (use care here since supercaps typically don't have much margin for overcharge :>) would discharge to 2V (the typical data retention voltage of a CMOS SRAM) in just 3000 *seconds* (less than an hour) with a 1mA retention current. This could be extended to ~30hours using 25uA devices. Using a *2*uA device can extend this to 2.5 weeks... [have I done my math right? Sorry, I'm just doing it in my head so I may slip a decimal or three... :> ] (I am assuming no drops in the switches used to connect the battery to the load. Otherwise, you can lose about 10-20% of the retention time due to drops in the switches). From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 16 13:46:34 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 11:46:34 -0700 Subject: The TIFF versus JPG debate In-Reply-To: <006201c6c138$6749ffb0$6400a8c0@barry> References: <006201c6c138$6749ffb0$6400a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <44E3680A.30104@dakotacom.net> Barry Watzman wrote: >> Re: I thought PDF's could just be used to *encapsulate* regular TIFF's? >> I.e., in much the same way that they can encapsulate JPEGs, etc. > > It can; in fact, when you create a PDF from a scanner, encapsulation is all > that Acrobat is doing, it's the scanner software that determines the format, > which can be tiff, jpeg or some other formats that the scanner software > supports. But by default, it is almost always JPEG. Hmmm... I don't know how to "create a PDF from a scanner". <:-) I typically scan documents to TIFF files. Then, open Acrobat (not Acrobat Reader) and paste the document in along with any added text, etc. So, it was my understanding that Acrobat did NOT further process the TIFF -- nor a JPEG, etc. Rather, just "held it in place on the page" ? From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 16 13:48:49 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 11:48:49 -0700 Subject: Scanning formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <007301c6c140$089aaca0$6400a8c0@barry> References: <007301c6c140$089aaca0$6400a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <44E36891.4050109@dakotacom.net> Barry Watzman wrote: > Re: > > I think his point was "adjust quality factor so resulting > image file has a size of ~10KB per sq in of original document". > E.g., A size is ~90 sq in so target a 1MB file size. > > (note that this would correspond to an UNCOMPRESSED TIFF scanned > at 300dpi! -- did I do the math right? -- in which case, the > whole argument starts to fall apart since a 300dpi TIFF > *compressed* would be much smaller! Or, for that given size, > a COMPRESSED TIFF could be scanned at a much higher resolution) > > **************** > > You do understand what I was saying; unlike others, you understood that I > was talking about resulting file size, not pixels. However, in the last > paragraph, you missed one point, which was that my guideline of 5k to 10K > per square inch was for color photographs. For monochrome, I cut that by > 2/3, so my guideline becomes more like 1.5k to 3k per square inch. And this > is very conservative, for files that will be, for all practical purposes, > indistinguishable from the original. For many if not most uses, you can > actually go a lot smaller. Oh, OK. Sorry, I got fixated on the numbers :> I'll try to put some representative drawings on the scanner and see how they turn out -- as raw TIFFs, JPEGs sized per your citeria and "compressed to the point where they can't be usefully read". From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Aug 16 14:05:54 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:05:54 -0500 Subject: The TIFF versus JPG debate In-Reply-To: <44E3680A.30104@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <001f01c6c167$00038220$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Actually, I know of several duplex scanning systems that generate PDFs directly. My friend owns one and he scanned a large number of Atari documents with it. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Don Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 1:47 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: The TIFF versus JPG debate Barry Watzman wrote: >> Re: I thought PDF's could just be used to *encapsulate* regular TIFF's? >> I.e., in much the same way that they can encapsulate JPEGs, etc. > > It can; in fact, when you create a PDF from a scanner, encapsulation is all > that Acrobat is doing, it's the scanner software that determines the format, > which can be tiff, jpeg or some other formats that the scanner software > supports. But by default, it is almost always JPEG. Hmmm... I don't know how to "create a PDF from a scanner". <:-) I typically scan documents to TIFF files. Then, open Acrobat (not Acrobat Reader) and paste the document in along with any added text, etc. So, it was my understanding that Acrobat did NOT further process the TIFF -- nor a JPEG, etc. Rather, just "held it in place on the page" ? From segin2005 at gmail.com Wed Aug 16 14:33:28 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:33:28 -0400 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <006301c6c13c$3fb01260$6400a8c0@barry> References: <006301c6c13c$3fb01260$6400a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <44E37308.4050900@gmail.com> Why won't we jusr all switch to PNG, which is lossless, and don't give me that "PNG is lossy" crap, otherwise everytime I untar a .tar.gz archive i should have lots of missing bits in my source code, because PNG uses the exact same alghorithm found in PKZIP and gzip. Barry Watzman wrote: > Re: > > >>Barry Watzman wrote: >> >>>I think TIFF is a mistake; I'd use JPEG, at about 5K to 10K per square >> >>inch for color, or about 1/3 that for monochrome. >> >>Umm, ten thousand dpi!? > > > I don't think so--that's 10K per "square inch". Linear resolution would be > the square root of that--100 dpi, no? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > *************** > > You are not reading what I said. > > I never said ANYTHING about "pixels". > > When I said 10K per square inch, that was not a reference to "pixels", it > was a reference to finished JPEG file size. E.g. 10,000 BYTES total file > size per square inch. You can do that with 100 dpi resolution, and you can > do that (using a lot more compression) with 600 dpi resolution. But I have > found that if you have a JPEG whose total file size is 5,000 to 10,000 bytes > per square inch (500k to 1 megabyte for an 8.5" x 11" color page), then in > my experience there will be NO detectable degradation compared to a lossless > file format, for purposes of viewing, printing or OCR (but monochrome images > can be a lot smaller than that). > > Again, the file size of a JPEG file is independent of resolution, the issue > is "how much compression are you going to use". And I have no argument that > if you use too much compression, the quality will be crap. > > But, at the same time, there is too much emotion connected with the fact > that JPEG is "lossy" and TIFF is "lossless". If neither a person nor an OCR > program can detect a difference, then the "losses" can be concluded to be > both insignificant and irrelevant. It's not like an executable program > where all losses are absolutely unacceptable. JPEG can be crap if you use a > lot of compression, but if you don't get carried away and keep the > compression low to moderate, I maintain that a JPEG file is > indistinguishable from a TIFF file for all practical purposes. > > By the way, several people have asked what resolution I scan at, and the > answer is 300 DPI MINIMUM for everything, but I sometimes scan at 600 dpi if > there is extremely fine detail present. I've used 600 dpi for some > schematics where the "original" in a manual was a blueprint-sized page > reduced to 8.5" x 11" (or even 11" x 17") and it was already at the point > where you needed a magnifying glass to read it. > > > > -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From segin2005 at gmail.com Wed Aug 16 14:33:28 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:33:28 -0400 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <006301c6c13c$3fb01260$6400a8c0@barry> References: <006301c6c13c$3fb01260$6400a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <44E37308.4050900@gmail.com> Why won't we jusr all switch to PNG, which is lossless, and don't give me that "PNG is lossy" crap, otherwise everytime I untar a .tar.gz archive i should have lots of missing bits in my source code, because PNG uses the exact same alghorithm found in PKZIP and gzip. Barry Watzman wrote: > Re: > > >>Barry Watzman wrote: >> >>>I think TIFF is a mistake; I'd use JPEG, at about 5K to 10K per square >> >>inch for color, or about 1/3 that for monochrome. >> >>Umm, ten thousand dpi!? > > > I don't think so--that's 10K per "square inch". Linear resolution would be > the square root of that--100 dpi, no? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > *************** > > You are not reading what I said. > > I never said ANYTHING about "pixels". > > When I said 10K per square inch, that was not a reference to "pixels", it > was a reference to finished JPEG file size. E.g. 10,000 BYTES total file > size per square inch. You can do that with 100 dpi resolution, and you can > do that (using a lot more compression) with 600 dpi resolution. But I have > found that if you have a JPEG whose total file size is 5,000 to 10,000 bytes > per square inch (500k to 1 megabyte for an 8.5" x 11" color page), then in > my experience there will be NO detectable degradation compared to a lossless > file format, for purposes of viewing, printing or OCR (but monochrome images > can be a lot smaller than that). > > Again, the file size of a JPEG file is independent of resolution, the issue > is "how much compression are you going to use". And I have no argument that > if you use too much compression, the quality will be crap. > > But, at the same time, there is too much emotion connected with the fact > that JPEG is "lossy" and TIFF is "lossless". If neither a person nor an OCR > program can detect a difference, then the "losses" can be concluded to be > both insignificant and irrelevant. It's not like an executable program > where all losses are absolutely unacceptable. JPEG can be crap if you use a > lot of compression, but if you don't get carried away and keep the > compression low to moderate, I maintain that a JPEG file is > indistinguishable from a TIFF file for all practical purposes. > > By the way, several people have asked what resolution I scan at, and the > answer is 300 DPI MINIMUM for everything, but I sometimes scan at 600 dpi if > there is extremely fine detail present. I've used 600 dpi for some > schematics where the "original" in a manual was a blueprint-sized page > reduced to 8.5" x 11" (or even 11" x 17") and it was already at the point > where you needed a magnifying glass to read it. > > > > -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 16 14:29:19 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Catastrophe strikes Blue Feather's 'net presence In-Reply-To: <200608160854160141.6257E135@192.168.42.129> from "Bruce Lane" at Aug 16, 2006 08:54:16 AM Message-ID: <200608161929.k7GJTK0B031128@onyx.spiritone.com> > If anyone knows of a good, solid VPN router, in the $400-$500 (max) > range, with at least the following features I would appreciate > hearing about it. I'm currently looking at Zyxel (the Zywall 5) and > Multitech (RouteFinder 830). > > --Must support 1:1 NAT mapping. > --Must support at least IPSec VPN with 3DES or AES encryption, and > --the VPN client must be low-cost or included. > --Preferably, should also support PPTP for when IPSec is blocked at > --the originating end (I've seen it happen). > --Must be RACK-MOUNTED, as in it has rack ears or brackets. This is > --NOT negotiable. > --The manufacturer must NOT, unlike Watchguard and Juniper Networks, > --nickle-and-dime its users to death for extra features. Have you looked into using OpenBSD? I'm not 100% sure on the VPN portions, but I believe it supports everything you're looking for. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 16 14:42:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:42:43 -0700 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E37308.4050900@gmail.com> References: <006301c6c13c$3fb01260$6400a8c0@barry> <44E37308.4050900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608161242430477.04554F94@10.0.0.252> On 8/16/2006 at 3:33 PM Segin wrote: >Why won't we jusr all switch to PNG, which is lossless, and don't give >me that "PNG is lossy" crap, otherwise everytime I untar a .tar.gz >archive i should have lots of missing bits in my source code, because >PNG uses the exact same alghorithm found in PKZIP and gzip. Excuse me? I don't think anyone said PNG is lossy, did they? IIRC, PNG was developed as an alternative to GIF (which is also lossless). My remark about JPEG being lossy was, I believe, valid. The only problem I can see with PNG is some older software doesn't support it, where TIFF and GIF support's been around for a very long time. But there's always conversion software, if need be. Cheers, Chuck From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 16 14:46:54 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 12:46:54 -0700 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E37308.4050900@gmail.com> References: <006301c6c13c$3fb01260$6400a8c0@barry> <44E37308.4050900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44E3762E.1030606@dakotacom.net> Segin wrote: > Why won't we jusr all switch to PNG, which is lossless, and don't give Why do you INSIST on crossposting to CCTECH? :-( From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 16 15:25:47 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 16:25:47 -0400 Subject: The TIFF versus JPG debate In-Reply-To: <006201c6c138$6749ffb0$6400a8c0@barry> References: <006201c6c138$6749ffb0$6400a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <200608161625.47475.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 16 August 2006 09:32 am, Barry Watzman wrote: > it's the scanner software that determines the format, which can be tiff, > jpeg or some other formats that the scanner software supports. But by > default, it is almost always JPEG. Not here. It's png... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 16 16:13:51 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apollo DN systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060816211351.76561.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Dude, I'm very interested in that stuph, doubt it hasn't been claimed already, but if something could be worked out (I'm residing in northeastern Pennsylvania). Thanks. --- CaptnZilog at aol.com wrote: > Just figured I'd post this out here... I have a > collection of old Apollo DN > systems (3000,3010,3500,4000,4500,5500 I think sums > it up) I did a little > work on porting NetBSD to and then have just never > had the time to pursue. > Might be willing to part with them to someone in the > New England area, since I > have monitors with some of them, and OS tapes, spare > hard drives, etc. > > Anyone interested, feel free to contact me... really > not up for shipping > monitors around, but for someone fairly local with > interest I might be willing > to do a road trip. > > email reply, or to: phufnagel at snet.net > > -- Pete > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Tim at Rikers.org Wed Aug 16 16:18:16 2006 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:18:16 -0600 Subject: Catastrophe strikes Blue Feather's 'net presence In-Reply-To: <200608161929.k7GJTK0B031128@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608161929.k7GJTK0B031128@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <44E38B98.9020505@Rikers.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> If anyone knows of a good, solid VPN router, in the $400-$500 (max) >> range, with at least the following features I would appreciate >> hearing about it. I'm currently looking at Zyxel (the Zywall 5) and >> Multitech (RouteFinder 830). >> >> --Must support 1:1 NAT mapping. >> --Must support at least IPSec VPN with 3DES or AES encryption, and >> --the VPN client must be low-cost or included. >> --Preferably, should also support PPTP for when IPSec is blocked at >> --the originating end (I've seen it happen). >> --Must be RACK-MOUNTED, as in it has rack ears or brackets. This is >> --NOT negotiable. >> --The manufacturer must NOT, unlike Watchguard and Juniper Networks, >> --nickle-and-dime its users to death for extra features. > > Have you looked into using OpenBSD? I'm not 100% sure on the VPN portions, > but I believe it supports everything you're looking for. > > Zane I was about to say the same. A Linux or *BSD box would do all this. Nowhere in your list to you say push button installation etc. Certianly a cheap rack mount server running a free OS would be the most flexible and easiest to replace/upgrade later too. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Aug 16 16:28:30 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 16:28:30 -0500 Subject: Need help with RSX-11M 3.2 sysgen Message-ID: <002b01c6c17a$eb62f620$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Hi everyone, Does anyone here know what the exact procedure is to generate an RSX-11M 3.2 system from distribution RL01s to an RL02? I'm trying to create a mapped system for an 11/34 with 128KW of memory. The docs I 'm reading don't cover 3.2 (they're from bitsavers) and they seem to be a cross between RSX-11M v2.0 (using the PRESRV program to copy the disk contents) and v4.1 (using BRU.) I'm utterly confused and somewhat new to RSX. Any help would be much appreciated. Julian From ray at arachelian.com Wed Aug 16 16:33:59 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:33:59 -0400 Subject: Catastrophe strikes Blue Feather's 'net presence In-Reply-To: <44E38B98.9020505@Rikers.org> References: <200608161929.k7GJTK0B031128@onyx.spiritone.com> <44E38B98.9020505@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <44E38F47.4080000@arachelian.com> There's always OpenVPN which has clients for quite a few OS's. :-) See: http://openvpn.net/ "OpenVPN runs on: Linux, Windows 2000/XP and higher, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, Mac OS X, and Solaris. An OpenVPN PocketPC port is under development." > > I was about to say the same. A Linux or *BSD box would do all this. > Nowhere in your list to you say push button installation etc. > Certianly a cheap rack mount server running a free OS would be the > most flexible and easiest to replace/upgrade later too. > From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed Aug 16 16:38:13 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:38:13 -0400 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060816173634.03c3d410@wheresmymailserver.com> So, I have an older USR Total Control system with quad V.34 modems on each card, and prolly 12 cards in the system. I was curious as to just what makes this sucker tick, so I pulled a card & started looking at chip numbers... Each "modem section" has: an Intel 80C186 (same chip as in the Tandy 2000) - except they're rated for 20Mhz... a TI/USR DSP chip, which is prolly useless outside of the intended use 2 each 32Kx8 static ram chips, 4 each 128Kx8 static ram chips and lots of other 8/16-bit 74-series buffer chips & whanot. So, *if* I can get a Dynamic-RAM -> Static RAM converter board designed for the CoCo, I could upgrade 4 CoCo3s to 512K with each modem board. Anyone have any use for some 20Mhz 80C186's? Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Aug 16 16:41:24 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:41:24 -0700 Subject: Catastrophe strikes Blue Feather's 'net presence In-Reply-To: <44E38B98.9020505@Rikers.org> References: <200608161929.k7GJTK0B031128@onyx.spiritone.com> <44E38B98.9020505@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <44E39104.7020805@msm.umr.edu> Tim Riker wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>> >> >> >> Have you looked into using OpenBSD? I'm not 100% sure on the VPN >> portions, >> but I believe it supports everything you're looking for. >> Zane > > > I was about to say the same. A Linux or *BSD box would do all this. > Nowhere in your list to you say push button installation etc. > Certianly a cheap rack mount server running a free OS would be the > most flexible and easiest to replace/upgrade later too. > I emailed Bruce the suggestion posted earlier about IPcop, rather than openbsd as a base. It is as close to a "pushbutton" installation as you can get with a firewall, and is now up to snuff for doing vpn's. If you want to try to rig ipsec by hand, that is fine, but it is a huge pain. IPcop now supports all of his questions and I think by dialogs from web admin. Also, the other issue with firewalls is that if you roll your own, you don't have a firewall, but that is a non topic for further discussion here. apologies for the diversion to even post this, but IPcop is good enough to recommend over a manual firewall, and is audited and supported for security. I'll shut up now on this. Jim From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 16 16:45:25 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:45:25 -0700 Subject: Apollo DN systems Message-ID: > Dude, I'm very interested in that stuph Anyone who uses "dude" and "stuph" in a sentence doesn't need to have anything other than a Linux box, preferably "modded". From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 16 17:14:56 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:14:56 -0700 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060816173634.03c3d410@wheresmymailserver.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060816173634.03c3d410@wheresmymailserver.com> Message-ID: <44E398E0.4000909@dakotacom.net> Roger Merchberger wrote: [12 modem cards] > Each "modem section" has: > > an Intel 80C186 (same chip as in the Tandy 2000) - except they're rated > for 20Mhz... > > a TI/USR DSP chip, which is prolly useless outside of the intended use Some of the DSP's are "general purpose" -- external program store. However, since you called it a "TI/USR" part, I assume it has a USR house number on it and, as such, is probably a masked part. If so, "useless outside of the intended use" :> > 2 each 32Kx8 static ram chips, > > 4 each 128Kx8 static ram chips > > and lots of other 8/16-bit 74-series buffer chips & whanot. > > So, *if* I can get a Dynamic-RAM -> Static RAM converter board designed > for the CoCo, I could upgrade 4 CoCo3s to 512K with each modem board. What's the issue *preventing* this from happening? (unfamiliar with the internals of a CoCo3) > Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers > zmerch at 30below.com > > What do you do when Life gives you lemons, > and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? Use it to flavor your *tea*! (which is what the 7 - 10G of fresh lemon juice from the tree in the side yard gets used for each year :> OTOH, finding a suitable use for all the *lime* juice is a bit harder -- there's only so much guacamole you can eat! Yet, the juice from the blood orange magically seems to "disappear" :> From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 16 17:22:51 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:22:51 -0700 Subject: RSX 3.2 sysgen Message-ID: > Does anyone here know what the exact procedure is to generate an RSX-11M 3.2 > system from distribution RL01s to an RL02? I'll check if I have a 3.2 sysgen manual. From segin2005 at gmail.com Wed Aug 16 17:29:25 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:29:25 -0400 Subject: Old video boards Message-ID: <44E39C45.8090803@gmail.com> I have recently went looking through my crap draw, and have come across two things of interest: an ATI GRAPHICS SOLUTION CGA/MDA video card. The only noticable defect is a damaged componet (capicator?) on the corner. An EGA/VGA 2-in-1 card. Dunno how it handles VGA modes with a EGA monitor, cause I don't have a EGA monitor or a ISA box without integrated video. A complete, working ESDI drive and controller. I can't use it cause I dunno what the hell the settings are. Image: http://segin.no-ip.org/computers/ (look near the bottom) An old MIDI program for Windows 95/98, called "CakeWalk Professional 7". Dunno if that's intresting, but I need the serial code for it (it has a serial AND a CD-KEY... I have the key on the original slimline jewel case)... And no, this isn't a warez beg. -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 16 17:16:18 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 23:16:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060816173634.03c3d410@wheresmymailserver.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Aug 16, 6 05:38:13 pm Message-ID: > > So, I have an older USR Total Control system with quad V.34 modems on each > card, and prolly 12 cards in the system. > > I was curious as to just what makes this sucker tick, so I pulled a card & > started looking at chip numbers... > > Each "modem section" has: > > an Intel 80C186 (same chip as in the Tandy 2000) - except they're rated for > 20Mhz... > > a TI/USR DSP chip, which is prolly useless outside of the intended use Somewhere I have ao old 1200 baud modem which uses an 8088 as the DSP (!). And I've heard of modems which used PICs as digital filters. Drifting even further away, I have an X terminal which uses an 80188 for I/O. The X server runs on a TMS34010 video processor (!). > > 2 each 32Kx8 static ram chips, > > 4 each 128Kx8 static ram chips > > and lots of other 8/16-bit 74-series buffer chips & whanot. > > So, *if* I can get a Dynamic-RAM -> Static RAM converter board designed for > the CoCo, I could upgrade 4 CoCo3s to 512K with each modem board. Hmm.. Both the SAM (CoCo 1 and 2) and GIME (CoCo 3) chips are pretty much designed to use DRAM. They output the multiplexed addresses and all the right timing signals. Surely 41256 DRAMs are not that rare yet? It would be a lot easier to stick 16 of those into a CoCo 3 to get it up to 512K. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 16 16:54:51 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 22:54:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <0J4100C0BILXX3D2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Aug 15, 6 08:58:36 am Message-ID: > > > Of 75 emails this morning, 44 (including 4 of mine) were on the subject of > PDP-8 memory. From those only two provided any information on the subject. > A few were well off track. Signal to noise -13db! In any other media > that far down in the noise would be an unreadable signal. Oh come on.... Firstly, this is, as I am sure you agree, not a list to provide answers to members questions. It's a discussion list. So of course topics are going to drift (alas they sometimes drift too far in odd directions, and I'll admit to causing that sometimes) Secondly, we don't know what you know. Both in the sense that you are a very experienced hacker, and have more knowledge on many subjects than the rest of us. And in the sense that even if we both know something, I don't know that you know it. So of course there'll be messages that 'state the obvious'. And finally, if somebody makes a statement that you believe to be in error it is, I think, sensible to explain why you think it's wrong. That way we all learn something. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 16 17:06:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 23:06:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Archived a few PERQ games... In-Reply-To: <44E2C23D.5000100@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Aug 15, 6 11:59:09 pm Message-ID: > > I've spent a few hours this evening transferring software from my PERQ > over the serial port at 9600 baud, and I thought I'd share them, since > there don't seem to be many games archived on the 'net (feel free to > correct me if I'm wrong on that count :). I don't know if it's any use to you, but _years_ ago I wrote a Turbo Pascal program (runs under MS-DOS) to read double-density PERQ 'interchange' floppies on a PC. As set up, it's designed to use a secondary controller in the PC (the XT on my desk has such a controller linked to a pair of 8" drives...). If you're interested (or if anyone else is interested) I can dig out the source code. I seem to remeber the original distribution terms were that I hold the copyright, but 'further distribution for the benefit of PERQ fanatics is encouraged). > > Thus far I've archived binaries & source for: > - PERQMan (seems to be an early version, looks like a 100% clone of > Pac-Man, vs. the changed sprites & "Perq Interactive Debugger" name I've > seen in screenshots) > - Chess > - Puzzle > > These are available at: http://yahozna.dhs.org/computers/software/PERQ/ I must tlake a look. The sources, in particular, are something I don't have. > Additionally, I'm working on archiving a raw image of the 14" Shugart in > my PERQ (again, over the serial port). I've written a simple pascal > program to do the dumping and I'm doing it 10 cylinders at a time since If you need any help with accessing the hard disk, etc, I may well have useful information around. I certainly have things like the I/O port map, etc. > it takes so long :). My goal eventually is to write a PERQ emulator, > but we'll see how that turns out... Good luck. The PERQ is not a simple machine at all. Having managed to understand how the CPU works, I'd not want to try emulating it... And a PERQ 2 would be even worse. On that series, you can run user code on the I/O processor (Z80).... -tony From segin2005 at gmail.com Wed Aug 16 17:33:20 2006 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:33:20 -0400 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E3762E.1030606@dakotacom.net> References: <006301c6c13c$3fb01260$6400a8c0@barry> <44E37308.4050900@gmail.com> <44E3762E.1030606@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E39D30.1040108@gmail.com> Don wrote: > Segin wrote: >> Why won't we jusr all switch to PNG, which is lossless, and don't give > > > > Why do you INSIST on crossposting to CCTECH? :-( > Who's crossposting? Are you referring to USENET? I am sorry, but I use the mailing list, not the newsgroup (if there is one). Alo, I grep'd my sent mail, and nothing in it has a post to CCTECH. Server bug, maybe? -- The real problem with C++ for kernel modules is: the language just sucks. -- Linus Torvalds From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 16 17:35:41 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 23:35:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <44E398E0.4000909@dakotacom.net> from "Don" at Aug 16, 6 03:14:56 pm Message-ID: > > a TI/USR DSP chip, which is prolly useless outside of the intended use > > Some of the DSP's are "general purpose" -- external program > store. However, since you called it a "TI/USR" part, I assume > it has a USR house number on it and, as such, is probably > a masked part. If so, "useless outside of the intended use" :> Unless either (a) the USB part number is just their code for a standard device (HP were fond of doing this...), or (b) you can disable the internal mask ROM and run it from external program store, say by changing the state of a pin. Without knowing more about the device I can't possibly know if either of these is the case. > > So, *if* I can get a Dynamic-RAM -> Static RAM converter board designed > > for the CoCo, I could upgrade 4 CoCo3s to 512K with each modem board. > > What's the issue *preventing* this from happening? > (unfamiliar with the internals of a CoCo3) The CoCo 3 is designed round a custom chip called GIME (Graphics, Interrupts, Memroy Enhancement). It handles all the video side, the memory mamangement (remmber the 6809 can only directly address 64K), etc. Said chip outputs a 9 bit multiplexed address (designed to link to the 9 addres pins on 256K bit DRAMs), and the DRAM timing signals. It also expects 16 bit wide memory IIRC. It's probably possible to add external circuitry to turn that back into a normal 18 bit address and hang SRAM off it, but I think it's more work than finding some 41256s... > > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers > > zmerch at 30below.com > > > > What do you do when Life gives you lemons, > > and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? > > Use it to flavor your *tea*! As I commented last night, citric acid is ideal for cleaning up battery corrosion from calles with alkaline electrolyte (NiCds, alkaline primary cells, etc). -tony From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 16 17:44:08 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:44:08 -0700 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E39D30.1040108@gmail.com> References: <006301c6c13c$3fb01260$6400a8c0@barry> <44E37308.4050900@gmail.com> <44E3762E.1030606@dakotacom.net> <44E39D30.1040108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44E39FB8.1090101@dakotacom.net> Segin wrote: > Don wrote: >> Segin wrote: >>> Why won't we jusr all switch to PNG, which is lossless, and don't give >> >> >> Why do you INSIST on crossposting to CCTECH? :-( >> > > Who's crossposting? Are you referring to USENET? I am sorry, but I use > the mailing list, not the newsgroup (if there is one). > > Alo, I grep'd my sent mail, and nothing in it has a post to CCTECH. > Server bug, maybe? I've seen two (different) of your posts which Cc'd cctech. Each appeared twice on the cctalk list. I can forward copies of them -- including headers -- offlist, if you'd like? From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 16 17:48:43 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:48:43 -0700 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E3A0CB.40201@dakotacom.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>> a TI/USR DSP chip, which is prolly useless outside of the intended use >> Some of the DSP's are "general purpose" -- external program >> store. However, since you called it a "TI/USR" part, I assume >> it has a USR house number on it and, as such, is probably >> a masked part. If so, "useless outside of the intended use" :> > > Unless either (a) the USB part number is just their code for a standard > device (HP were fond of doing this...), or (b) you can disable the > internal mask ROM and run it from external program store, say by changing > the state of a pin. > > Without knowing more about the device I can't possibly know if either of > these is the case. TI realized early on that to make the DSP more ubiquitous, they needed to suppport masked parts. Particularly for this sort of application. I would suspect this is a low end 32010-ish part (?) >>> So, *if* I can get a Dynamic-RAM -> Static RAM converter board designed >>> for the CoCo, I could upgrade 4 CoCo3s to 512K with each modem board. >> What's the issue *preventing* this from happening? >> (unfamiliar with the internals of a CoCo3) > > The CoCo 3 is designed round a custom chip called GIME (Graphics, > Interrupts, Memroy Enhancement). It handles all the video side, the > memory mamangement (remmber the 6809 can only directly address 64K), etc. > Said chip outputs a 9 bit multiplexed address (designed to link to the 9 > addres pins on 256K bit DRAMs), and the DRAM timing signals. It also > expects 16 bit wide memory IIRC. Ah, OK. > It's probably possible to add external circuitry to turn that back into a > normal 18 bit address and hang SRAM off it, but I think it's more work > than finding some 41256s... I would assume the controller would exploit page mode references (especially when dealing with sequential accesses like video). If so, this muddies any attempt to convert multiplexed addresses back to a form suitable for SRAM (unless you use SRAMs that also support page mode access!) Yes, assuming it produces an 18bit (9R+9C) address, 41256's would be the right way to go. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 16 17:51:19 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:51:19 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: > Firstly, this is, as I am sure you agree, not a list to provide answers > to members questions. Thank you for the clarification. This will save me a great deal of time in the future not researching answers to questions. If this list is meant to be just another wank like alt.folklore.computers, enjoy the noise. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 16 17:57:56 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:57:56 -0700 Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" Message-ID: <44E3A2F4.8@dakotacom.net> Marginally on-topic (?) -- the watchman is "old", and the intended application is a "computer" ;-) I'm looking for a working Sony WATCHman (NOT *walk*man) for a wearable I am hacking together. Doesn't need to be in good cosmetic shape since I will disembowel it, regardless... Apologies if I have *stretched* the on-topic-ness on this one :-( From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 16 18:01:06 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 16:01:06 -0700 Subject: MULTICS manuals Message-ID: <44E3A3B2.3090107@dakotacom.net> Hi, I've got a couple of cubic feet of MULTICS manuals, here. Should I put them in the "to be scanned" pile or the "to be shredded" pile? [Hmmm... did I ask this question already? I can't find reference in my Sent folder :-( ] Thanks! --don From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 16 18:03:40 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 16:03:40 -0700 Subject: MULTICS manuals Message-ID: I've got a couple of cubic feet of MULTICS manuals, here. Should I put them in the "to be scanned" pile or the "to be shredded" pile? -- Check what's already been done on bitsavers. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 16 18:24:54 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:24:54 -0400 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060816173634.03c3d410@wheresmymailserver.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060816173634.03c3d410@wheresmymailserver.com> Message-ID: > I was curious as to just what makes this sucker tick, so I pulled a card & > started looking at chip numbers... > Xilinx? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 16 18:25:29 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:25:29 -0400 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <44E3A0CB.40201@dakotacom.net> References: <44E3A0CB.40201@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: > TI realized early on that to make the DSP more ubiquitous, they > needed to suppport masked parts. Particularly for this sort of > application. I would suspect this is a low end 32010-ish part (?) Yes. -- Will From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 16 18:42:24 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:42:24 -0500 Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" In-Reply-To: <44E3A2F4.8@dakotacom.net> References: <44E3A2F4.8@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060816184022.05885458@mail> At 05:57 PM 8/16/2006, Don wrote: >I'm looking for a working Sony WATCHman (NOT *walk*man) >for a wearable I am hacking together. I know that mine, like those of many others, has suffered some sort of erosion of the interconnect to the video display, and has a white scan line running across the bottom third of the display. On the other hand, if you just need a composite-in video LCD, those are cheap and not rare these days. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 16 18:43:57 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:43:57 -0500 Subject: The TIFF versus JPG debate In-Reply-To: <001f01c6c167$00038220$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <44E3680A.30104@dakotacom.net> <001f01c6c167$00038220$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060816183807.05883018@mail> At 02:05 PM 8/16/2006, Julian Wolfe wrote: >Actually, I know of several duplex scanning systems that generate PDFs >directly. My friend owns one and he scanned a large number of Atari >documents with it. The public library in my pop. 7,000 town has a quite capable copier / scanner that automagically scans (or OCRs) and ftp's to another machine, as TIFF or PDF or Word. - John From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 16 18:51:33 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 16:51:33 -0700 Subject: The TIFF versus JPG debate In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060816183807.05883018@mail> References: <44E3680A.30104@dakotacom.net> <001f01c6c167$00038220$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <6.2.3.4.2.20060816183807.05883018@mail> Message-ID: <44E3AF85.9070204@dakotacom.net> John Foust wrote: > At 02:05 PM 8/16/2006, Julian Wolfe wrote: >> Actually, I know of several duplex scanning systems that generate PDFs >> directly. My friend owns one and he scanned a large number of Atari >> documents with it. > > The public library in my pop. 7,000 town has a quite capable > copier / scanner that automagically scans (or OCRs) and ftp's > to another machine, as TIFF or PDF or Word. Wow! That's cool! I don't think ours (pop 400,000!) have anything like that! :-( From alexeyt at freeshell.org Wed Aug 16 18:49:36 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 23:49:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Computers and heat density In-Reply-To: <44DF5A31.9090205@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20060813135547.6B908BA4124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44DF4AA4.9040703@yahoo.co.uk> <20060813150747.271A0BA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44DF5A31.9090205@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > Oh, there was certainly some good hardware around. Actually, for embedded > type systems like telecomms, I believe that they haven't seen anything like > the kind of bloat that's around for desktop / server systems. I was a telecom test engineer at my last job, and the software quality was atrocious. I once got a nice christmas gift from the engineering department of a Canadian company for finding ~30 critical (fails and doesn't come back up without operator intervention) bugs in their SIGTRAN product in less than 2 months; this after their sales department convinced our management that the product was deployed in "dozens of sites". Then there was the GSN we bought from an Indian branch of a big American defense contractor; once again "dozens" of prior deployments were promised, but the product would not interoperate with anything other than their (buggy) test software. Parts of this real-time system were written in embedded TCL! I still have my notes on how to construct SS7 frames that will crash their stack; they refused to fix these because "the far end shouldn't be sending malformed frames" :-) I quit that job 1.5 years after the GSN was acquired, and only maybe 80% of the worst bugs had been fixed yet, however we had already deployed the product to 2 of our own customers. Our own flagship piece of software hit 100% CPU at around 30-45 calls per second on a PIII 700 M CPU because every call control action has to update the Call Detail Records, and I gather there was a single spinlock over the whole (Microsoft Access) DB. I'm betting with my test experience, I could make better quality products than 90% of the telecom market with 1-2 handpicked RF engineers and 3-4 systems programmers. Of course the sales would still all go to the politically connected companies selling drek, so we would never make a profit. :-/ Alexey From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 16 19:17:10 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MULTICS manuals In-Reply-To: from "Al Kossow" at Aug 16, 2006 04:03:40 PM Message-ID: <200608170017.k7H0HAnT006222@onyx.spiritone.com> > I've got a couple of cubic feet of MULTICS manuals, here. > Should I put them in the "to be scanned" pile or the "to > be shredded" pile? > > -- > > Check what's already been done on bitsavers. Even if they aren't needed for scanning I'm assiciated with a Historical Library that would be interested in adding them to their collection. Please do not recycle these. We're also interested in other historical computer documentation. The library does not care if documentation is old and out of date, it is dedicated to preserving history, and the manuals would not be thrown out or disposed of. Zane From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Aug 16 19:18:38 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:18:38 -0500 Subject: Altos computers Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060816191411.00bcc4c8@localhost> The deal to get Don's old CP/M - MP/M computers - Altos - to a good home collapsed. His widow needs to get rid of them and I can't store them. Here's my old message describing them. Please, someone, provide a home for this trove. Note: I believe that all of this material is still available. I'm hoping she hasn't disposed of any of it in the meantime. I don't think she has. ----- Here's a list of items that must go. Ideally, a small number of people would take this collection, so as to not divide it all up and make shipping/pickup complicated. If the person who wants the Altos computer wants the disks, I will probably fish out all the Altos, MP/M and application (not the Milenium Systems disks) and bundle that with the computer. The drive cabinet can go separately. Anything I suspect is DEC-related can go separately. The Millenium stuff is probably a separate item as well, unless someone wants all of it. If there's no interest in this collection as large units, it will go in smaller chunks to whomever wants it. She's not looking for money for this material, but can't bear any costs, so S&H is on you, plus some $$ for packing materials. Local pickup would be much, much better. Estate of Don S. Photos are available for a few items: http://my.athenet.net/~uuhhuu/altos/ Content listing based solely on written or printed labels, may be inaccurate, no further information (e.g. version numbers) is available. ?Assy? = Assembler Hardware: http://my.athenet.net/~uuhhuu/altos Altos Z80 based computer, CP/M, MP/M or ?, 208k memory, dual 8? Floppy, serial, parallel, etc. Second Altos cabinet, dual Shugart 801 floppy drives, fan, and power supply only. No motherboard. Was used in a rack for DEC drives. Manuals Manual, Shugart 1610-4 Intelligent Disk Drive Controller MP/M II Programmer?s Guide (photo) MP/M II User?s Guide (photo) MP/M II System Guide (photo) Digital Research CP/Net Network Reference Manual (photo) Link-80 Operator?s Guide Digital (DEC) Logic Handbook 1970 Manual: Adaptec ACB-4000 Series Disk Controller Eight-Inch Floppy disks on East wall shelves Utilities (shareware) dBase II Ashton-Tate ZIP CP/M modem programs PL1 BASIC 80 Supercalc V1.12 9250 Diagnostic LK Link Parsing Util Turbo Tutor Pascal MT+ MP/M 1.14 (Millenium Systems) Wordstar (Millenium Systems) Z80 assembler (Millenium Systems) MP/M 1.16 (Millenium Systems) MP/M 1.16 + Wordstar 2.10 + MSI Utils (Millenium Systems) 6809 Assy + 8048 Assy + Z8000 Assy + MSI util (Millenium Systems) Z80 Assembly (Millenium Systems) Convert.com + Convert.prl (Millenium Systems) 9516 software release (Millenium Systems) 9520 demo programs (Millenium Systems) 9520 diagnostic (Millenium Systems) Pascal Mt+ (Millenium Systems) CP/M (Millenium Systems) Wordstar ver 3.0 Wordstar 950 (possibly for Televideo 950?) CP/M (Millenium Systems) ZAS.COM + ZLK.COM + Z8TINS (Millenium Systems) 6800/6802 Assy (Millenium Systems) UCSD PASCAL SA 120-1 Alignment Diskette (Shugart?) Utils Wordstar 3.0 + Mailmerge + Spellstar Supercalc ISIS V4.2 System TCS Accounting (9 disks) Adventure Eight-Inch Floppy Disks on North Wall Shelves Altos Diagnostic (2 disks) MP/M (Altos) CP/M 2.02 Box of approx 80 disks, some RX01, some CP/M or MP/M, e.g. games, utils, Zork, JRT Pascal, etc. Box of approx 40 disks, mostly CP/M MP/M, e.g. dBase II, Modem 7, BDS C 1.44, user group software, terminal programs, terminal programs, ALGOL, FORTH, BASIC, Fortran, Tiny C, Mp/M, Dazzler, PALASM Osbourn Accounting CP/M 2.24 DEC disks, probably RX01: TECO etc (black cardboard box) CP/M + Wordstar Altos CP/M 2.24 Turbo for Altos dBase II Altos Diagnostic Executive 1.10 (original disk! pink box) RT-11 boot disk (DEC) Pascal CP/M-86 Wordstar-86 Mailmerge-86 Spellstar-86 Jade Computer Products Double-D Disk Controller CP/M 2.2 [Internet] "Usenet is essentially Letters to the Editor without the editor. Editors don't appreciate this, for some reason." --Larry Wall --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From dj.taylor at starpower.net Wed Aug 16 19:24:43 2006 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:24:43 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <0J42008N9FX2DT93@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J42008N9FX2DT93@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20060816202236.01bd85c8@pop.starpower.net> Is it a bad idea to try and salvage/reuse the DC021 bus transceivers off the CXY08 boards that seem to be so common and useless? Doug > >On 8/15/06, vrs wrote: > >> From: "Ethan Dicks" > >> > OK. Is a DEC005 OMNIBUS-friendly? We used them on our Qbus COMBOARD, > >> > so that's the context I think of them in. > >> > >> Interesting question, even though I'd never design in a DEC005. They are > >> made of even more unobtainium than the regular tranceivers! > >I have a selection of DEC0XX parts on hand from my days in the mill. > > >Agreed. I have a few, but I used to make Qbus cards. For most folks, > >the only source is other cards. > >Or plain TTL. LS241 is a good reciever for Q, U or Omnibus (Schmitt inputs) >and 74LS38 makes a good open collector driver. There are others. > >Allison From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Aug 16 19:45:34 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:45:34 -0500 Subject: Altos computers In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060816191411.00bcc4c8@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060816194327.0bc749a8@localhost> As several have pointed out, I neglected to mention where this stuff is. Sorry about that. It's in Milwaukee, WI, not far from the Capitol Drive exit from I-43. Riverwest, sort of, if you know anything about Milwaukee. -T At 07:18 PM 8/16/2006 -0500, Tom Peters wrote: >The deal to get Don's old CP/M - MP/M computers - Altos - to a good home >collapsed. His widow needs to get rid of them and I can't store them. >Here's my old message describing them. Please, someone, provide a home >for this trove. > >Note: I believe that all of this material is still available. I'm hoping >she hasn't disposed of any of it in the meantime. I don't think she has. >----- >Here's a list of items that must go. Ideally, a small number of people >would take this collection, so as to not divide it all up and make >shipping/pickup complicated. If the person who wants the Altos computer >wants the disks, I will probably fish out all the Altos, MP/M and >application (not the Milenium Systems disks) and bundle that with the computer. > >[Internet] "Usenet is essentially Letters to the Editor without the >editor. Editors don't appreciate this, for some reason." --Larry Wall >--... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... >tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) >"HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters >43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc >WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 > [Commentary] Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. --Arthur C. Clarke (Often refered to as Clarke's Law) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Aug 16 20:21:50 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 21:21:50 -0400 Subject: udisk prototype Message-ID: <200608170121.k7H1Loq0029643@mwave.heeltoe.com> I got the stuffed prototype boards back for my "unibus device emulator" today. Here's a poor picture (I was in a hurry) http://www.heeltoe.com/retro/udisk/udisk_big.jpg I powered it up and after fixing a few problems got everything on the "top half" of the board to work, basically cpu, serial port, led's and CF disk. I'll add some ttl chips tomorrow and check out the unibus interface. The (now out of date) docs are here http://www.heeltoe.com/retro/udisk/index.html It's a very simple design - basically an ARM cpu and a CPLD with lots of unibus receives and transceivers. Most of the work is done in software. The idea is the "personality" is specified by a file on the disk. There is also a serial port and USB. Both CF and IDE notebook drives are supported (a normal IDE can also be used with an adapter). I will update the doc files and publish the schematics, cpld files and source code - for non-commericial use anyway. So far I've written some simple code to emulate an RL02. I think I'll do an RK05 next. At some point I'll do a UDA50 also. It can also be used to talk to other controllers, test ram, etc... I don't know if it will actually work (yet), but it should be capable of emulating ram, rom or any unibus device. All of the control signals are there. The CPLD has two address comparators (with mask) which generate an interrupt to the cpu. The cpu then runs the bus cycles "by hand". I included the A,B parity lines also (to the cpld anyway) so it should be able to do 18 bit i/o. At some point I'd like to con someone into working on a massbus/rp03 style controller. This board should be able to go into the "magic" unibus slot on a KS-10 (it's only magic because of the bus hog disk controler which normally goes there). If, once it works, anyone else would like one I'd like to make a run of 10 or so with gold edges (and no mod wires :-) I estimate the cost would be about $200 each. Half of that is the pcb, the other half parts. I'd be happy to sell blank boards also, if people like to solder :-) All of the parts are available from Digikey, except the DS8641 & DS3862's. I'm going to use DS8838's instead of DS8641's, because I have a few (I need 2 per board). I also have about 200 DS3862's. The design uses 7, so 200/7 = 28 :-) it's just a hack, but should make my unibus machines happy :-) -brad From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 16 20:51:34 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 18:51:34 -0700 Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060816184022.05885458@mail> References: <44E3A2F4.8@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060816184022.05885458@mail> Message-ID: <44E3CBA6.7010008@dakotacom.net> John Foust wrote: > At 05:57 PM 8/16/2006, Don wrote: >> I'm looking for a working Sony WATCHman (NOT *walk*man) >> for a wearable I am hacking together. > > I know that mine, like those of many others, has suffered some sort > of erosion of the interconnect to the video display, and has > a white scan line running across the bottom third of the display. Really? I hadn't realized that there was such a "common failure mode". But, I am unsure of what you are describing... Is the lower third of the display a "solid white band"? Or, is the *retrace* visible on the lower third of the display (i.e. the correct image is present but with a zig-zag line "scratched" through it)? > On the other hand, if you just need a composite-in video LCD, > those are cheap and not rare these days. I was hoping to find a monochrome CRT instead of an LCD. Color isn't a requirement. Monochrome LCD's are poor quality. And LCD's impose a certain resolution on the display contents. The watchman was the only *tiny* device that I could think of that fit the bill :-( Do you have a pointer to anything worth looking into? Small/tiny? Thanks! --don From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Aug 16 21:16:20 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altos computers In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060816194327.0bc749a8@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060816194327.0bc749a8@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Tom Peters wrote: > As several have pointed out, I neglected to mention where this stuff is. > Sorry about that. > > It's in Milwaukee, WI, not far from the Capitol Drive exit from I-43. > Riverwest, sort of, if you know anything about Milwaukee. Do you have a rough figure on the total cubic feet this stuff takes up? I found such information important, albeit after the fact, when I picked up Rlee Peter's collection. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Aug 16 21:41:26 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 22:41:26 -0400 Subject: Altos computers In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060816191411.00bcc4c8@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060816191411.00bcc4c8@localhost> Message-ID: <44E3D756.2050604@mdrconsult.com> Tom Peters wrote: > The deal to get Don's old CP/M - MP/M computers - Altos - to a good home > collapsed. His widow needs to get rid of them and I can't store them. > Here's my old message describing them. Please, someone, provide a home > for this trove. > > Note: I believe that all of this material is still available. I'm hoping > she hasn't disposed of any of it in the meantime. I don't think she has. Tom, keeping up with this situation can't have been easy or pleasant. It's the kind of effort that deserves recognition whether it's successful or not. So no matter how it turns out, thank you. Doc From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Aug 16 21:56:04 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 22:56:04 -0400 Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? Message-ID: <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> I'm hoping someone can ID this interesting board (sorry, no pix avail). 16Bit ISA (full-length) DB25S Connector 20pin header socket 10 pos DIP SW 10 seg green LED bar graph 3 sets of jumper pins 80186 CPU 2 x XC2064 XILINX FPGAs Pair of IDC 7130/7140 (1Kx16 dual-port memory) 2 x 256x8 SIPPs C8208 DRAM controller 2 x 27256 EPROMs 2 x DS1225Y BBU SRAM 2 x LH0033 Fast FET buffers (12 pin metal cans) Misc 74LS & F glue chips Nothing recognizable in the EPROMS or SRAMS; 1 EPROM is blank (erased/defective?) Ring any bells with anyone, or time to scrap for parts? mike From waisun.chia at gmail.com Wed Aug 16 22:24:18 2006 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:24:18 +0800 Subject: Apollo DN systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/17/06, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Dude, I'm very interested in that stuph > > Anyone who uses "dude" and "stuph" in a sentence doesn't need to have > anything other than a Linux box, preferably "modded". > Nah. These are probably gamer "dudes" with modded Windows boxes (preferably the ones with a clear window case with lots of blue flashing leds). Disclaimer: I know quite a number of these "dudes" in real life too. Typically they're nice folks but they talk funny, drink/eat lots of caffeine and are very trigger-happy.. :-) From waisun.chia at gmail.com Wed Aug 16 22:24:18 2006 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:24:18 +0800 Subject: Apollo DN systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/17/06, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Dude, I'm very interested in that stuph > > Anyone who uses "dude" and "stuph" in a sentence doesn't need to have > anything other than a Linux box, preferably "modded". > Nah. These are probably gamer "dudes" with modded Windows boxes (preferably the ones with a clear window case with lots of blue flashing leds). Disclaimer: I know quite a number of these "dudes" in real life too. Typically they're nice folks but they talk funny, drink/eat lots of caffeine and are very trigger-happy.. :-) From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Aug 16 22:23:35 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 22:23:35 -0500 Subject: Altos computers In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060816194327.0bc749a8@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20060816194327.0bc749a8@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060816221755.0d000008@localhost> At 07:16 PM 8/16/2006 -0700, you wrote: >On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Tom Peters wrote: > > > As several have pointed out, I neglected to mention where this stuff is. > > Sorry about that. > > > > It's in Milwaukee, WI, not far from the Capitol Drive exit from I-43. > > Riverwest, sort of, if you know anything about Milwaukee. > >Do you have a rough figure on the total cubic feet this stuff takes up? >I found such information important, albeit after the fact, when I picked >up Rlee Peter's collection. Not really. It's on more than one shelf unit. The disks you can guestimate, the two cabinets are rack-mount wide, 6 to 8" high, and over 20" deep, maybe 24". The Eight-inch diskettes are in several plastic disk library boxes, my feeling is that I handled at least two, possibly three such cases, plus several smaller cardboard ones that blank 8" disks used to come in-- ten to a box, I believe. [Government]Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. --P.J. O'Rourke, Civil Libertarian --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Aug 16 23:38:57 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 23:38:57 -0500 Subject: Apollo DN systems Message-ID: <6e089d1085ce4f7d997bb67ea0286401@valleyimplants.com> Al typeth >> Dude, I'm very interested in that stuph > >Anyone who uses "dude" and "stuph" in a sentence doesn't need to have >anything other than a Linux box, preferably "modded". With all due respect for the wonderful work done by Al and other classiccmp people, perhaps this sentiment is a bit harsh. The message may not be worded exactly how the bulk of ClassicCmp people would word it, but if the interest is there, why not encourage it? As regards the "doesn't need to have", well, for the most part we probably don't need to have the vast majority of our boxes, but I enjoy mine all the same. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Aug 16 23:47:11 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 23:47:11 -0500 Subject: LSI 11/2 question Message-ID: <4743ee6a394b42efaa0a620d757d5333@valleyimplants.com> I have the opporitunity of getting some LSI 11/2 boards (LSI 11/2 processor, some memory, serial MUX, RK floppy driver) (I think) Couple questions: will the multiport serial work for a console or do I need a specific "console" card? Will these boards work in a VAX 4k BA430 chassis/backplane, or will the C/D wiring and DSSI over C/D throw them off? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 00:15:25 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 17:15:25 +1200 Subject: LSI 11/2 question In-Reply-To: <4743ee6a394b42efaa0a620d757d5333@valleyimplants.com> References: <4743ee6a394b42efaa0a620d757d5333@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: On 8/17/06, Scott Quinn wrote: > > I have the opporitunity of getting some LSI 11/2 boards (LSI 11/2 processor, some memory, serial MUX, RK floppy driver) (I think) If it's a floppy card, it's probably an RXV11. If you had an "RK" controller, it would most likely be the RKV11D which typically comes in its own box with cables to the Qbus enclosure with the CPU. The RXV11 will only work with the RX01 floppy drive or an RX02 with the internal dip switches set to act like an RX01. > Couple questions: will the multiport serial work for a console or do I need a specific "console" card? A DLV11-J (the common 4-port card) has one port strapped for console use. > Will these boards work in a VAX 4k BA430 chassis/backplane, or will the C/D wiring and DSSI over C/D throw them off? Hmm... don't know that off the top of my head, but I would think that if anything in the chassis is loading the C/D slots, you might have a problem with the memory refresh lines. I have never used 18-bit Qbus equipment in a backplane that modern, so I can't comment from experience. -ethan From hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu Wed Aug 16 14:05:06 2006 From: hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu (hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: summagraphics MM1103 tablet Message-ID: Hello Everyone, I ran across a Summagraphics MM1103 tablet. I see that there was a thread on this list in 2004 regarding this device. Do we know the communication protocol/format? Do we know what the 3 8-bit DIP switches inside do? Any documentation or pointers to documentation would be appreciated. thanks, -kurt From austin at ozpass.co.uk Wed Aug 16 15:02:15 2006 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 21:02:15 +0100 Subject: Catastrophe strikes Blue Feather's 'net presence [OT Reply] In-Reply-To: <200608161929.k7GJTK0B031128@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 16/8/06 20:29, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> > If anyone knows of a good, solid VPN router, in the $400-$500 (max) >> > range, with at least the following features I would appreciate >> > hearing about it. I'm currently looking at Zyxel (the Zywall 5) and >> > Multitech (RouteFinder 830). >> > >> > --Must support 1:1 NAT mapping. >> > --Must support at least IPSec VPN with 3DES or AES encryption, and >> > --the VPN client must be low-cost or included. >> > --Preferably, should also support PPTP for when IPSec is blocked at >> > --the originating end (I've seen it happen). >> > --Must be RACK-MOUNTED, as in it has rack ears or brackets. This is >> > --NOT negotiable. >> > --The manufacturer must NOT, unlike Watchguard and Juniper Networks, >> > --nickle-and-dime its users to death for extra features. > > Have you looked into using OpenBSD? I'm not 100% sure on the VPN portions, > but I believe it supports everything you're looking for. > > Zane The best option in your price range is to ?roll your own?. My company market a solution that ticks all your boxes, hence I know for a cold hard fact that you can hack one together from off the shelf parts. Ours consists of a SuperMicro case (with 200w PSU), ASRock socket AM2 motherboard, latest cheap Sempron64 CPU, 512MB DDR2 RAM, 40GB PATA HDD, Intel PRO/100 VE NIC. This should cost you no more than ?260. Gives you a box that?s way over-specced for your requirements. None of our customers are particularly large, but it happily handles 43 simultaneous VPN sessions at our largest site. I?d expect it to handle well over 100. As Zane said, BSD is the way to go. We use a customised version of m0n0wall (http://www.m0n0.ch). Alternatively (and getting marginally more on topic) we?ve used second hand Sun Netra T100?s for the same application in the past running various BSD flavours. If you?re lucky you?ll get one with Checkpoint FW-1 pre-installed. If you?re very lucky it?ll have the passwords with it! ;-) -Austin. From vax at purdue.edu Wed Aug 16 16:20:32 2006 From: vax at purdue.edu (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:20:32 -0400 Subject: The TIFF versus JPG debate In-Reply-To: <200608161625.47475.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <006201c6c138$6749ffb0$6400a8c0@barry> <200608161625.47475.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608161720.32342.vax@purdue.edu> On Wednesday 16 August 2006 16:25, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 16 August 2006 09:32 am, Barry Watzman wrote: > > it's the scanner software that determines the format, which can be > > tiff, jpeg or some other formats that the scanner software > > supports. But by default, it is almost always JPEG. > > Not here. It's png... And here, it's usually TIFF, because that's what I tell SANE to output. By default, it complains at you if you don't tell it what format to use. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac From derschjo at msu.edu Wed Aug 16 18:01:50 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 16:01:50 -0700 Subject: Archived a few PERQ games... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E3A3DE.1070603@msu.edu> > I don't know if it's any use to you, but _years_ ago I wrote a Turbo > Pascal program (runs under MS-DOS) to read double-density PERQ > 'interchange' floppies on a PC. As set up, it's designed to use a > secondary controller in the PC (the XT on my desk has such a controller > linked to a pair of 8" drives...). > > If you're interested (or if anyone else is interested) I can dig out the > source code. I seem to remeber the original distribution terms were that > I hold the copyright, but 'further distribution for the benefit of PERQ > fanatics is encouraged). > > I'd definitely be interested in having the software for future use; as it currently stands I don't have any software on floppies to read so I won't have much use for it. (Plus I still need to get an 8" floppy connected to a PC, I have one sitting around for the job but haven't gotten around to hooking it up yet.) > If you need any help with accessing the hard disk, etc, I may well have > useful information around. I certainly have things like the I/O port map, > etc. > > Definitely; I believe I have something working (it's chugging along as we speak) using POS system calls; I've just uploaded the source of my program to my site ( http://yahozna.dhs.org/computers/software/PERQ/dumpdisk.pas). Go easy on me, it's both my first Pascal program and my first PERQ program, and I haven't cleaned it up much. Might be useful for other people interested in preserving the contents of their drives. > Good luck. The PERQ is not a simple machine at all. Having managed to > understand how the CPU works, I'd not want to try emulating it... > > And a PERQ 2 would be even worse. On that series, you can run user code > on the I/O processor (Z80).... > > -tony > > Yeah -- like I said, we'll see how it turns out :). There seems to be a lot of available documentation on the system (microcode, etc...) so I'm hoping that's enough to get a good start -- and you sound like the person to ask if it's not :). Thanks, Josh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 16 18:33:07 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:33:07 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: <0J4400MN66MXCBV2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 22:54:51 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> >> Of 75 emails this morning, 44 (including 4 of mine) were on the subject of >> PDP-8 memory. From those only two provided any information on the subject. >> A few were well off track. Signal to noise -13db! In any other media >> that far down in the noise would be an unreadable signal. > >Oh come on.... > >Firstly, this is, as I am sure you agree, not a list to provide answers >to members questions. It's a discussion list. So of course topics are >going to drift (alas they sometimes drift too far in odd directions, and >I'll admit to causing that sometimes) Indeed! Most of those emails were thread drift. >Secondly, we don't know what you know. Both in the sense that you are a >very experienced hacker, and have more knowledge on many subjects than >the rest of us. And in the sense that even if we both know something, I >don't know that you know it. So of course there'll be messages that >'state the obvious'. Very experienced hacker and professional engineer. >And finally, if somebody makes a statement that you believe to be in >error it is, I think, sensible to explain why you think it's wrong. That >way we all learn something. If it were only that. I thought the avalanche if posts on the subject vaguely curious and somewhat funny. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 16 18:40:10 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:40:10 -0400 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) Message-ID: <0J44001ND6YNS6O2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 23:35:41 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> > a TI/USR DSP chip, which is prolly useless outside of the intended use >> >> Some of the DSP's are "general purpose" -- external program >> store. However, since you called it a "TI/USR" part, I assume >> it has a USR house number on it and, as such, is probably >> a masked part. If so, "useless outside of the intended use" :> > >Unless either (a) the USB part number is just their code for a standard >device (HP were fond of doing this...), or (b) you can disable the >internal mask ROM and run it from external program store, say by changing >the state of a pin. > >Without knowing more about the device I can't possibly know if either of >these is the case. > >> > So, *if* I can get a Dynamic-RAM -> Static RAM converter board designed >> > for the CoCo, I could upgrade 4 CoCo3s to 512K with each modem board. >> >> What's the issue *preventing* this from happening? >> (unfamiliar with the internals of a CoCo3) > >The CoCo 3 is designed round a custom chip called GIME (Graphics, >Interrupts, Memroy Enhancement). It handles all the video side, the >memory mamangement (remmber the 6809 can only directly address 64K), etc. >Said chip outputs a 9 bit multiplexed address (designed to link to the 9 >addres pins on 256K bit DRAMs), and the DRAM timing signals. It also >expects 16 bit wide memory IIRC. > >It's probably possible to add external circuitry to turn that back into a >normal 18 bit address and hang SRAM off it, but I think it's more work >than finding some 41256s... Way more work! 41256s are not hard to find and some of the related flavours like 44256 could be used as well. >> > Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers >> > zmerch at 30below.com >> > >> > What do you do when Life gives you lemons, >> > and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? >> >> Use it to flavor your *tea*! > >As I commented last night, citric acid is ideal for cleaning up battery >corrosion from calles with alkaline electrolyte (NiCds, alkaline primary >cells, etc). That or vinegar work well for cleaning up after burped nicads or some fool charging Alkaline (durcells and the like) non-rechargeables. FYI: I've found some off brands of nicads that if allowed to discharge fully may leak. I had a few with the toshiba label on them do that. Never seen Duracells ever do that. So quality pays. Allison From doug.jackson at ewa-australia.com Wed Aug 16 18:40:07 2006 From: doug.jackson at ewa-australia.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 09:40:07 +1000 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> > "I see where you're coming from - but I also know that writing a TIFF > decoder is pretty straightforward; I wouldn't fancy doing the same for > either JPEG or PDF (not sure about PNG, but I get the impression that > it's pretty simple in nature)." Noooooo!!!!! Don't do it. The problem with writing your own decoder is that you may not have your own set of reference images, so testing it would be 'interesting'. This is the major cause of security issues in software at the moment. All it takes is one case where you mis-handle input, and you have introduced a vulnerability into your application. Unfortunately, you can't work on the basis that image data is not hostile any more. That's what application libraries are for. Yes, they are larger that rolling your own, but they are also more robust. From bqt at softjar.se Thu Aug 17 01:54:26 2006 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:54:26 +0200 Subject: Need help with RSX-11M 3.2 sysgen In-Reply-To: <002b01c6c17a$eb62f620$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <002b01c6c17a$eb62f620$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <44E412A2.70300@softjar.se> You need to understand the difference between a sysgen, and just copying a disk. A sysgen means doing a build of the kernel, all privileged tasks, and creating a system image from this. Copying is just copying. BRU can also copy the system image and make sure it works on the new disk. If you want to do a sysgen on the disk, the easiest way is to copy the whole disk with whatever tools you prefer, and then run the sysgen on the new disk. That will create a bootable system on the new disk. If you just want to copy over the system from the old to the new disk, BRU should be able to do that. I think BRU should do the trick in V3 as well as in V4. PRESERV was deprecated somewhere along the line since it appearantly had some inherent problems that DEC didn't want to do anything about since BRU did a better job anyway. Johnny Julian Wolfe wrote: > Hi everyone, > > > > Does anyone here know what the exact procedure is to generate an RSX-11M > 3.2 system from distribution RL01s to an RL02? I?m trying to create a > mapped system for an 11/34 with 128KW of memory. The docs I ?m reading > don?t cover 3.2 (they?re from bitsavers) and they seem to be a cross > between RSX-11M v2.0 (using the PRESRV program to copy the disk > contents) and v4.1 (using BRU.) I?m utterly confused and somewhat new > to RSX. Any help would be much appreciated. > > > > Julian > From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Aug 17 02:00:09 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:00:09 +0100 Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" In-Reply-To: <44E3CBA6.7010008@dakotacom.net> References: <44E3A2F4.8@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060816184022.05885458@mail> <44E3CBA6.7010008@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <1155798009.12871.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-08-16 at 18:51 -0700, Don wrote: > I was hoping to find a monochrome CRT instead of an LCD. > Color isn't a requirement. Monochrome LCD's are poor quality. > And LCD's impose a certain resolution on the display > contents. The watchman was the only *tiny* device that > I could think of that fit the bill :-( > > Do you have a pointer to anything worth looking into? > Small/tiny? You get lots of small TV tubes. Would a camera viewfinder tube be *too* tiny? What about a Sinclair Flat Screen TV? Gordon. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Aug 17 05:13:14 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 06:13:14 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060817101314.902E5BA4154@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > Firstly, this is, as I am sure you agree, not a list to provide answers > > to members questions. > > Thank you for the clarification. This will save me a great deal of time in > the future not researching answers to questions. > > If this list is meant to be just another wank like alt.folklore.computers, > enjoy the noise. It took me a while to begin to apply the secret decoder rings to some of the longest-time posters to a.f.c, like Eugene Miya and Anne&Lynn Wheeler. They don't actually answer questions with particularly useful answers. (Where "useful" = "connect pins 1 and 2 on J103"). Still over the long term they do have something useful to say (I actually believe that Eugene's answers have gotten more to the point over the past decade, more than 10 years ago I could NEVER see what he was talking about!) Like you, I like to see question/answer stuff going on. It can get dull too when the same questions keep coming up and nobody actually answers them but goes all philosophical each time :-). Tim. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 17 06:04:17 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 07:04:17 -0400 Subject: LSI 11/2 question Message-ID: <0J45002R92MO4U95@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: LSI 11/2 question > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 17:15:25 +1200 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 8/17/06, Scott Quinn wrote: >> >> I have the opporitunity of getting some LSI 11/2 boards (LSI 11/2 processor, some memory, serial MUX, RK floppy driver) (I think) > >If it's a floppy card, it's probably an RXV11. If you had an "RK" >controller, it would most likely be the RKV11D which typically comes >in its own box with cables to the Qbus enclosure with the CPU. RK card is likely only the interface to an external box with the full RK controller. >The RXV11 will only work with the RX01 floppy drive or an RX02 with >the internal dip switches set to act like an RX01. Could also be RXV21, that works with RX02. > >> Couple questions: will the multiport serial work for a console or do I need a specific "console" card? > >A DLV11-J (the common 4-port card) has one port strapped for console use. Any DL compatable card set to the console address and vector (176500/60) > >> Will these boards work in a VAX 4k BA430 chassis/backplane, or will the C/D wiring and DSSI over C/D throw them off? > >Hmm... don't know that off the top of my head, but I would think that >if anything in the chassis is loading the C/D slots, you might have a >problem with the memory refresh lines. Unknown. The 11/2 does not do refresh and is only dual width. >I have never used 18-bit Qbus equipment in a backplane that modern, so >I can't comment from experience. 11/2 is not 18 bit, it is the dual width varient of the 11/03 the and is a 16bit address microPDP-11. Allison From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Aug 17 07:52:15 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:52:15 -0400 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608170626.k7H6QEYs023986@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <004101c6c1fb$f780c000$6400a8c0@barry> RE: >>I scan at 300 DPI MINIMUM for everything, but I sometimes scan at 600 >>dpi if there is extremely fine detail present. >Agreed on the DPI front. What I tend to find unacceptable though, >even on pure textual material, are bi-level scans - too much >information from the original is lost" ******** Agreed. I NEVER scan anything as "black and white" (each pixel is black or white). It just does not work well, ever, even for pure text that you would think really is "black and white". I always scan monochrome material, even text, as "grayscale". However, 8 bit depth (256 shades of gray) is all that you need for such monochrome material (in fact it's even more than you need), even if the scanner supports a greater depth. From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Aug 17 08:15:15 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 09:15:15 -0400 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060816173634.03c3d410@wheresmymailserver.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060817085628.0568da20@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: >Hmm.. Both the SAM (CoCo 1 and 2) and GIME (CoCo 3) chips are pretty much >designed to use DRAM. They output the multiplexed addresses and all the >right timing signals. Yup. > Surely 41256 DRAMs are not that rare yet? Nope. > It would be a lot easier to stick 16 of those into a CoCo 3 to get it > up to 512K. But the *boards* to stick 'em in aren't exactly easy to find, and Cloud 9 (http://www.cloud9tech.com/) aren't building/shipping any more hardware (including their 512K upgrade boards) until they get the SuperBoard done; which might be quite a while yet. Besides - I have bigger fish to fry. This is part of my evil, twisted plot for world domination!!! OK, just kidding, but - to venture into where my brain & dynamic memory part understanding, the 41256 uses a particular refresh[1] which newer memory doesn't deal with well[2], so going *beyond* 512K is problematic.[3] *If* I can figure out how to get 512K of SRAM to work in a CoCo3, going *beyond* 512K might become a bit easier. Not to mention - going from SRAM to FRAM would be a pretty easy jump. A CoCo3 with a "Suspend" switch could be *neat*. ;-) Or, I might be full of condensed milk, as my father-in-law used to say. Just my random thoughts for the day... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] 256 cycle / 8-bit counter / something like that. Did I mention that my brain doesn't grok DRAM well??? ;-) [2] 512/1024 cycle / 9-10 bit counter / something like that. Just in case you didn't catch it, I have DRAMophobia. ;-) [3] Now we're getting into the world of PAL/GAL/PEEL/CPLD - which is *way* beyond anything comprehensible to my grey matter. -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 17 09:11:59 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 09:11:59 -0500 Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" In-Reply-To: <44E3CBA6.7010008@dakotacom.net> References: <44E3A2F4.8@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060816184022.05885458@mail> <44E3CBA6.7010008@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060817090515.058c0a08@mail> At 08:51 PM 8/16/2006, you wrote: >Really? I hadn't realized that there was such a "common >failure mode". But, I am unsure of what you are describing... >Is the lower third of the display a "solid white band"? >Or, is the *retrace* visible on the lower third of the Like one or two scan lines that are always white. A few years ago when I researched (probably on Usenet or repair webs) there were several others with the same problem. I interpolate. >I was hoping to find a monochrome CRT instead of an LCD. >Color isn't a requirement. Monochrome LCD's are poor quality. Poor quality or low res? I once had a tiny handheld mono LCD TV from Radio Shack made by Casio. But have you told us what's driving this display? I would think that would quickly reduce or expand your options. VGA? Composite from VGA? Many folks don't realize how low-res is composite. Mounted on your arm or your eye? - John From bjones at rrs.co.za Thu Aug 17 06:51:18 2006 From: bjones at rrs.co.za (Bryn Jones) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 13:51:18 +0200 Subject: Looking for Intel PL/M-51 manual Message-ID: <6FAD21BB364ED049906263CF3FB56D989E9996@HERMES.rrs.co.za> Hi Did you manage to get a copy of the PLM compiler you were looking for? Do you have any documentation? Would you able to send me a copy of the Intel PLM51 manual if you have one? Many thanks BJ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 17 07:41:29 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:41:29 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: <0J45009CC74NDZA4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory > From: Don > Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 11:41:47 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> I thought I'd said that. Bit of work history, engineer and product >> engineer for a semi company that sold micros and ram. > >Work history doesn't help list readers since they can only read >what you've *written* (except for those few clairvoyants sitting >in the back row...) :> Most will not build unless supplied as a kit for $49.95. >You neglected to note that Icc grading *between* CMOS static >RAMs AT DC varies SUBSTANTIALLY. Power consumption at operating >frequency isn't an issue (here). Rather, the difference between >Icc(standby) on a "regular" 62256 (e.g.) and a "low power" >62256. Yes, I know. Does anyone care? >You can buy even LARGER devices (e.g. > 1MB -- B not b) >that will idle at *2* uA. > >I.e. the data retention time of a well designed BBSRAM >circuit *is* limited to the shelf life of the battery >powering it (during standby). *But*, only if you select >the right grade SRAM. At 2ua a 3V 30mAH Li cell has a life of how many years? At 20ua a 3V 30 mAH Li cell has a life of how many months? At 2ma using two AA alkaline cells (Duracell) in hundreds of hours? >In my reread of your comments, I don't see *that* mentioned. :> >(much of the 32KB devices you'll find in PC's and their ilk >are not chosen for this very low Icc(standby) -- *especially* >cache RAM!) Doesnt matter! if battery life were an issue I'd have brought it up. However I specifically metnioned in another post that battery life or even battery backup was not an issue. FYI: nearly all the previous commercial designs the ram array was usually 2102s and even the LP version at DC was both heat and power intensive. Their power drain was measured in amps for the array (96 2102s for one board). B elieve it or not they did provide for backup (using large SLAs). I'd point out that I have a bag full and some are very low power I measured several for this and got less than 1ua at 3v and room temp, outputs floating inputs grounded CS/ and OE/ negated. You forget guarenteed specs vs whats likely supplied as yeild is often to the better part. That was only the CMOS cache rams pulled from old 486 boards of late generation (green). I have a very deep new parts stock with a tubes of graded 62256 and other low power rams as well as CMOS logic. >To put things in perspective, a 1F supercap charged *nominally* >to 5V (use care here since supercaps typically don't have much >margin for overcharge :>) would discharge to 2V (the typical >data retention voltage of a CMOS SRAM) in just 3000 *seconds* >(less than an hour) with a 1mA retention current. This could >be extended to ~30hours using 25uA devices. Using a *2*uA >device can extend this to 2.5 weeks... Read that as a battery would do far better. Back in 1981 when I first got my hands on a supercap I evaluated them against Li primary cells. I wasn't impressed then or now. Super caps are just big (is capacity) caps and don't really hold a lot of energy. They don't leak or do bad things as a rechargeable storage but a 1F super cap doesn't match a cr2016 or 2032 for total watthours of available energy. As a result a 2032 coin cell would perform much better than a super cap and I've never seen one leak. They are cheap and play with the dallas memory power management chips quite nicely. >[have I done my math right? Sorry, I'm just doing it in >my head so I may slip a decimal or three... :> ] Doesn't matter. The board I'm doing is not backed up. Even if it were it would be only short term backup as in minutes to hours so I could ride through a power "burp". A few AA alkalines in an external box would do that very well. This is a PDP-8f and it weighs in at a mere 60 pounds for the CPU box and there is a open 13"x4"x5" (60 cubic inches) cavity where a suitable enclosed and even properly vented (external to the CPU case) box could be placed containing a large battery and charge circuit. Right above the PS (in it's own box) and far enough away from the bus. If I need power fail backup I have 20k of core! What I want is 32k of semi to play with for large OS stuff and still leave room on the board for an IDE interface and maybe even a 2.5" drive or CF. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 17 07:52:59 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:52:59 -0400 Subject: batteries Was: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: <0J4500BBX7NTAYM5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory > From: Don > Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 11:00:57 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: >> >> What has this to to do with the topic at hand? > >If people are griping about the *possibility* of a battery >leaking inside their gear, I contend that if you're storing >that gear in conditions that would bring about this sort >of problem (e.g., excessive ambient temperatures, humidity) >then there are bound to be *other* things that are happening >to that gear besides the potential of a battery leak. Different topic and worth discussion. I attack it from a different view. I assume batteries will discharge when least desired in storage and will leak. All my PCs that have CMOS batteries accessable have a external (.6x2x1.5 inches) plastic box with a suitable battery placed in it and wires to the internal battery location. I had a bad experience early on with NiCd leakage on a board so off the board they go. External makes for accessability without opening the cases. It also allows me to use a battery that is larger or better that would not fit where the orginal was. I apply this to a my otehr systems as well, S100 toy clock battery, MicrovaxII TOY clock battery and similar. I agree heat and batteries generally do not get along well and storing equipment with batteries installed is also risky. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 17 07:57:36 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:57:36 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: <0J450096C7VIDA15@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory > From: Al Kossow > Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 15:51:19 -0700 > To: "classiccmp at classiccmp.org" > > >> Firstly, this is, as I am sure you agree, not a list to provide answers >> to members questions. > >Thank you for the clarification. This will save me a great deal of time in >the future not researching answers to questions. > >If this list is meant to be just another wank like alt.folklore.computers, >enjoy the noise. ;) thats funny! What isn't funny is I'd almost missed your post. I had the memory info I was looking for wrapped in 75 other posts from this list that morning. That would have been terrible loss as it was the definitive answer. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 17 07:58:35 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 08:58:35 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory Message-ID: <0J4500BDT7X5AQW4@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory > From: Douglas Taylor > Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:24:43 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > > >Is it a bad idea to try and salvage/reuse the DC021 bus transceivers off >the CXY08 boards that seem to be so common and useless? >Doug No! though testing them afterwards is advised. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 17 10:36:57 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 09:36:57 -0600 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060817085628.0568da20@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060816173634.03c3d410@wheresmymailserver.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060817085628.0568da20@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <44E48D19.8020201@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > But the *boards* to stick 'em in aren't exactly easy to find, and Cloud > 9 (http://www.cloud9tech.com/) aren't building/shipping any more > hardware (including their 512K upgrade boards) until they get the > SuperBoard done; which might be quite a while yet. But unless they have a web browser what do you need 512K memory for? No wait ... a web broweser with graphics has to fit in 64k of memory. > OK, just kidding, but - to venture into where my brain & dynamic memory > part understanding, the 41256 uses a particular refresh[1] > which newer memory doesn't deal with well[2], so going *beyond* 512K is > problematic.[3] *If* I can figure out how to get 512K of SRAM to work in > a CoCo3, going *beyond* 512K might become a bit easier. Good I can sell you 24 bit computer design good to 2 MHZ with real 12 bit bytes ... :) From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Aug 17 11:08:17 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:08:17 -0400 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <44E48D19.8020201@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060817085628.0568da20@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060816173634.03c3d410@wheresmymailserver.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060817085628.0568da20@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060817115430.05a435b0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that woodelf may have mentioned these words: >Roger Merchberger wrote: > >>But the *boards* to stick 'em in aren't exactly easy to find, and Cloud 9 >>(http://www.cloud9tech.com/) aren't building/shipping any more hardware >>(including their 512K upgrade boards) until they get the SuperBoard done; >>which might be quite a while yet. >But unless they have a web browser what do you need 512K memory for? >No wait ... a web broweser with graphics has to fit in 64k of memory. Browser schnauzer... "We no need no steeekin browser!" With OS-9, one can have Rogue (think old Nethack) playing in one window (and I redesigned the screen fonts so the "guy" looks like a guy, and scrolls are scrolls, etc. instead of remembering the symbols -that alone cannot be done in 128K), DynaCalc running in another window, Basic09 in a third (and who wants to run Basic09 in 8K??? Heck, give 'er 40K! Why? 'Cause you can!) and a 150K RAMDisk. But what if you needed a 300K RAMDisk? Now you need more than 512K RAM. ;-) >Good I can sell you 24 bit computer design good to 2 MHZ with real 12 bit >bytes ... :) 2 questions: 1) Is there such a thing as "fake 12-bit bytes?" ;-) 2) What would I want that for? Some people *like* 8-bit bytes (me included) - I just want more than 512K of RAM in my CoCo. The patches to OS-9 already exist to give it access to 2M, one just needs to shoehorn functional memory into the critter to do it. That, and to learn more about memory; altho the more I learn about DRAM, the more I *like* SRAM. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Aug 17 11:47:25 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 09:47:25 -0700 Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060817090515.058c0a08@mail> References: <44E3A2F4.8@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060816184022.05885458@mail> <44E3CBA6.7010008@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060817090515.058c0a08@mail> Message-ID: <44E49D9D.5040908@dakotacom.net> John Foust wrote: > At 08:51 PM 8/16/2006, you wrote: >> Really? I hadn't realized that there was such a "common >> failure mode". But, I am unsure of what you are describing... >> Is the lower third of the display a "solid white band"? >> Or, is the *retrace* visible on the lower third of the > > Like one or two scan lines that are always white. A few years ago > when I researched (probably on Usenet or repair webs) there were > several others with the same problem. I interpolate. And the rest of the display is "correct"? Are these really *scan* lines or *retrace* lines (scan lines are at a very shallow angle; retrace is typically much steeper)? Are they always on the same place in the picture? Can you suggest search criteria to find these other comments (not that I am *doubting* you; rather, looking for other descriptions to guesstimate what is happening)? *Or*, can you email me a photo of a screen shot? :> >> I was hoping to find a monochrome CRT instead of an LCD. >> Color isn't a requirement. Monochrome LCD's are poor quality. > > Poor quality or low res? I once had a tiny handheld mono LCD TV from Both. Most monochrome LCD's are blue-green, low contrast and require a backlight (think "power" + more electronics) to drive them. They aren't the sort of thing you can *glance* at and read (I'm thinking of displays in PDA's, etc.) > Radio Shack made by Casio. But have you told us what's driving this display? > I would think that would quickly reduce or expand your options. I'll drive it with whatever I need to in order to get the images I want on the display. I would prefer NOT going in through the front end (RF) but can probably bypass that. (I'll have to look through my Sony docs to see if I have a Watchman service manual or if that is just too old for my collection :< ) > VGA? Composite from VGA? Many folks don't realize how low-res > is composite. Mounted on your arm or your eye? Mounted in my *pocket*! :> It is only an interim solution... sort of a backup "console" that I can glance at when/if things aren't working properly. The watchman package pushes the limit of what I can stuff in my pocket comfortably... From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Aug 17 11:49:44 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 09:49:44 -0700 Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" In-Reply-To: <1155798009.12871.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <44E3A2F4.8@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060816184022.05885458@mail> <44E3CBA6.7010008@dakotacom.net> <1155798009.12871.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <44E49E28.8000507@dakotacom.net> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Wed, 2006-08-16 at 18:51 -0700, Don wrote: > >> I was hoping to find a monochrome CRT instead of an LCD. >> Color isn't a requirement. Monochrome LCD's are poor quality. >> And LCD's impose a certain resolution on the display >> contents. The watchman was the only *tiny* device that >> I could think of that fit the bill :-( >> >> Do you have a pointer to anything worth looking into? >> Small/tiny? > > You get lots of small TV tubes. Would a camera viewfinder tube be *too* > tiny? What about a Sinclair Flat Screen TV? No idea what a Sinclair Flat Screen TV is... :-( *But*, I'd never thought of viewfinders in video cameras! I'll have to find one and take it apart to look at the mechanics. I suspect it is an in-line tube (since the housing of most cameras would seem to accommodate "depth", there) Thanks! --don From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 17 12:02:37 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:02:37 -0600 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060817115430.05a435b0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060817085628.0568da20@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060816173634.03c3d410@wheresmymailserver.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060817085628.0568da20@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060817115430.05a435b0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <44E4A12D.8000400@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Browser schnauzer... "We no need no steeekin browser!" Umm what about email ... :) > With OS-9, one can have Rogue (think old Nethack) playing in one window > (and I redesigned the screen fonts so the "guy" looks like a guy, and > scrolls are scrolls, etc. instead of remembering the symbols -that alone > cannot be done in 128K), DynaCalc running in another window, Basic09 in > a third (and who wants to run Basic09 in 8K??? Heck, give 'er 40K! Why? > 'Cause you can!) and a 150K RAMDisk. But what if you needed a 300K > RAMDisk? Now you need more than 512K RAM. ;-) That is what real HD's are for. Note the main other reasion I have not kept up todate with the Coco after my Coco 3 died is lack of software. > 2 questions: > 1) Is there such a thing as "fake 12-bit bytes?" ;-) yes ... the ones with 8 bits. I favor a 9 bit byte but 7 bits was standard until we got all this code page crap from M$. > 2) What would I want that for? Some people *like* 8-bit bytes (me > included) - I just want more than 512K of RAM in my CoCo. The patches to > OS-9 already exist to give it access to 2M, one just needs to shoehorn > functional memory into the critter to do it. Go wire-wrap! CoCoZilla with 64 Meg! http://home.wwdb.org/irgroup/frontpage.html > That, and to learn more about memory; altho the more I learn about DRAM, > the more I *like* SRAM. ;-) The odd thing - the original CoCo chip set could support static ram. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Aug 17 12:02:31 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 13:02:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> References: <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> Message-ID: <200608171703.NAA10423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > DB25S Connector What's a DB25*S*? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Aug 17 12:05:51 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:05:51 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <0J45009CC74NDZA4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J45009CC74NDZA4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <44E4A1EF.1020105@dakotacom.net> Allison wrote: >> Subject: Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory >> From: Don >> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 11:41:47 -0700 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >>> I thought I'd said that. Bit of work history, engineer and product >>> engineer for a semi company that sold micros and ram. >> Work history doesn't help list readers since they can only read >> what you've *written* (except for those few clairvoyants sitting >> in the back row...) :> > > Most will not build unless supplied as a kit for $49.95. Presumably, (*some*) people may still be *interested* or want to *learn* something -- even if they are not going to *build* it. >> You neglected to note that Icc grading *between* CMOS static >> RAMs AT DC varies SUBSTANTIALLY. Power consumption at operating >> frequency isn't an issue (here). Rather, the difference between >> Icc(standby) on a "regular" 62256 (e.g.) and a "low power" >> 62256. > > Yes, I know. Does anyone care? Anyone who is thinking about the problem (e.g., "miniature PDP-8" thread) may. >> You can buy even LARGER devices (e.g. > 1MB -- B not b) >> that will idle at *2* uA. >> >> I.e. the data retention time of a well designed BBSRAM >> circuit *is* limited to the shelf life of the battery >> powering it (during standby). *But*, only if you select >> the right grade SRAM. > > At 2ua a 3V 30mAH Li cell has a life of how many years? > At 20ua a 3V 30 mAH Li cell has a life of how many months? > At 2ma using two AA alkaline cells (Duracell) in hundreds of hours? The point was, design a good BBSRAM circuit, put an off-the-shelf "consumer battery" on it and it will last the shelf life of the battery. Keep that item out of nasty environments -- which would also be harmful, long term, to your '8 (or whatever) and you have a nice, simple, solution. >> In my reread of your comments, I don't see *that* mentioned. :> >> (much of the 32KB devices you'll find in PC's and their ilk >> are not chosen for this very low Icc(standby) -- *especially* >> cache RAM!) > > Doesnt matter! if battery life were an issue I'd have brought > it up. However I specifically metnioned in another post that > battery life or even battery backup was not an issue. Sorry, I didn't see the sign that proclaimed "This is Allison's post; only replies that she deems acceptable are accepted here" :> *Other* people may be interested in this, even if you are not. My apologies if your thread has become intertwined with the "miniature PDP-8" thread. But apparently there *are* people interested in different approaches to semiconductor memory in a PDP-8 -- or mini-PDP-8. > FYI: nearly all the previous commercial designs the ram array > was usually 2102s and even the LP version at DC was both heat > and power intensive. Their power drain was measured in amps > for the array (96 2102s for one board). B elieve it or not > they did provide for backup (using large SLAs). > > I'd point out that I have a bag full and some are very low power > I measured several for this and got less than 1ua at 3v and room > temp, outputs floating inputs grounded CS/ and OE/ negated. You > forget guarenteed specs vs whats likely supplied as yeild is often I only design for worst-case. The numbers I have previously cited are actually *worse* than worst case. But, they vary greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer. E.g., Cypress's super low power 62256's idle at 1/20th the power of Hyundai's. If you are building "one off" and can afford to select parts, then perhaps you could chose to pick one manufacturer's parts over another. If I were designing a *kit* and expected some volume of sales, I would opt for the real worst case, vendor independant approach which means some folks would get pleasant surprises, others would get what they paid for. But, we already know *you* aren't interested in this. :> > to the better part. That was only the CMOS cache rams pulled > from old 486 boards of late generation (green). I have a very deep > new parts stock with a tubes of graded 62256 and other > low power rams as well as CMOS logic. Great! Build it however *you* want! Since it is *yours*. >> To put things in perspective, a 1F supercap charged *nominally* >> to 5V (use care here since supercaps typically don't have much >> margin for overcharge :>) would discharge to 2V (the typical >> data retention voltage of a CMOS SRAM) in just 3000 *seconds* >> (less than an hour) with a 1mA retention current. This could >> be extended to ~30hours using 25uA devices. Using a *2*uA >> device can extend this to 2.5 weeks... > > Read that as a battery would do far better. I mentioned the numbers for a supercap as a delayed reply to someone's *explicit* question about it. It was a great way to put the numbers "in perspective". Good luck with your design! From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Aug 17 12:07:56 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:07:56 -0700 Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <200608171703.NAA10423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> <200608171703.NAA10423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44E4A26C.1060106@dakotacom.net> der Mouse wrote: >> DB25S Connector > > What's a DB25*S*? Presumably "socket" (Female) From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Aug 17 12:14:59 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 13:14:59 -0400 Subject: The TIFF vs. JPEG debate In-Reply-To: <200608171700.k7HH0cfR030351@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <005701c6c220$ab98fcf0$6400a8c0@barry> Re: Hmmm... I don't know how to "create a PDF from a scanner". <:-) I typically scan documents to TIFF files. Then, open Acrobat (not Acrobat Reader) and paste the document in along with any added text, etc. So, it was my understanding that Acrobat did NOT further process the TIFF -- nor a JPEG, etc. Rather, just "held it in place on the page" ********* That's the hard way of doing it. The somewhat easier and generally preferred way: - Open Acrobat - File / Create PDF / From Scanner [This is from Acrobat version 6; may be different in other versions]. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 17 12:14:31 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:14:31 -0500 Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" In-Reply-To: <44E49D9D.5040908@dakotacom.net> References: <44E3A2F4.8@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060816184022.05885458@mail> <44E3CBA6.7010008@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060817090515.058c0a08@mail> <44E49D9D.5040908@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060817121153.100e37f0@mail> At 11:47 AM 8/17/2006, Don wrote: >Mounted in my *pocket*! :> It is only an interim solution... >sort of a backup "console" that I can glance at when/if things >aren't working properly. The watchman package pushes the limit >of what I can stuff in my pocket comfortably... I don't think this is the right place for you to ask about what you want to do. It's not classic computing. There are plenty of immersive computing or mobile computing mailing lists and webs who probably have this in their FAQ. A Watchman screen is small, ten-year-old old tech, and probably doesn't have the res you need. - John From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Aug 17 12:19:46 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 13:19:46 -0400 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) Message-ID: <005801c6c221$56cb2120$6400a8c0@barry> RE: " Why won't we just all switch to PNG" First, it's not nearly as well supported as either TIFF or JPEG. In my case, when I'm scanning documents, I am almost always going to save them as PDF files rather than as [explicitly] either TIFF or JPEG [although, internally, my PDFs created from a scanner are JPEGs]. I'm not even sure that using an internal PNG format is easily possible. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Aug 17 12:23:53 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:23:53 -0700 Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060817121153.100e37f0@mail> References: <44E3A2F4.8@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060816184022.05885458@mail> <44E3CBA6.7010008@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060817090515.058c0a08@mail> <44E49D9D.5040908@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060817121153.100e37f0@mail> Message-ID: <44E4A629.80501@dakotacom.net> John Foust wrote: > At 11:47 AM 8/17/2006, Don wrote: >> Mounted in my *pocket*! :> It is only an interim solution... >> sort of a backup "console" that I can glance at when/if things >> aren't working properly. The watchman package pushes the limit >> of what I can stuff in my pocket comfortably... > > I don't think this is the right place for you to ask about what > you want to do. It's not classic computing. There are plenty of You'll note that I introduced my post with that disclaimer. :> Thanks, I'll bring it to some other forums... --don > immersive computing or mobile computing mailing lists and webs > who probably have this in their FAQ. A Watchman screen is small, > ten-year-old old tech, and probably doesn't have the res you need. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Aug 17 12:29:48 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:29:48 -0700 Subject: The TIFF vs. JPEG debate In-Reply-To: <005701c6c220$ab98fcf0$6400a8c0@barry> References: <005701c6c220$ab98fcf0$6400a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <44E4A78C.5050309@dakotacom.net> Barry Watzman wrote: > Re: > > Hmmm... I don't know how to "create a PDF from a scanner". <:-) > I typically scan documents to TIFF files. Then, open Acrobat > (not Acrobat Reader) and paste the document in along with any > added text, etc. > > So, it was my understanding that Acrobat did NOT further process > the TIFF -- nor a JPEG, etc. Rather, just "held it in place > on the page" > > ********* > > That's the hard way of doing it. > > The somewhat easier and generally preferred way: > > - Open Acrobat > - File / Create PDF / From Scanner > > [This is from Acrobat version 6; may be different in other versions]. I've found that programs don't always "play nice" together. E.g., the driver for my PowerLook 2100XL (not the greatest scanner but it will do B-size drawings and it was free :> ) doesn't like to "plug in" to certain other TWAIN "shells". (Presumably the driver is supposed to be "callable" to provide a "scanning service" to the application?). So, rather than fight software incompatibilities, I just run the scanner with it's "native" tools, create TIFF files, then treat those just like the JPEGs that I paste into the PDF's (actually, more often than not, I create a document in FrameMaker and then export a PDF from there). But, I will try your suggestion to see how well it works. Thanks! --don From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Aug 17 12:40:42 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:40:42 -0700 Subject: ASR-33 Message-ID: <44E4AA1A.2090208@dakotacom.net> Hi, I am desperately trying to make room here so my ASR-33 has got to go. I'll either eBay it or ship it off for "long term storage" ;-) In either case, I need to pack it so it will survive the UPS gorillas. I figured pull the mechanism off the base (is the base REALLY worth saving??) and put it in one box (the mechanism) and the "skin" in another. Wrap each in plastic. Shoot the *mechanism* box full of self-expanding foam -- so everything is encased in a conformal block of foam (the plastic wrap preventing the foam from migrating into the mechanism itself). And pack the skin in "cheetos" (peanuts)? Does this sound like a safe approach? It usually works for *monitors* but they aren't quite as irregularly shaped... Thanks! --don From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 17 13:15:48 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:15:48 -0600 Subject: ASR-33 In-Reply-To: <44E4AA1A.2090208@dakotacom.net> References: <44E4AA1A.2090208@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E4B254.3000108@jetnet.ab.ca> Don wrote: > Hi, > > I am desperately trying to make room here so my ASR-33 has got to go. > I'll either eBay it or ship it off for "long term storage" ;-) I think you'll sell it quicker here: http://marketplace.vintage.org/ > In either case, I need to pack it so it will survive the > UPS gorillas. Pack plenty of bannana's ... wait that is for REAL gorillas. > I figured pull the mechanism off the base (is the base REALLY > worth saving??) and put it in one box (the mechanism) and > the "skin" in another. Wrap each in plastic. Shoot the > *mechanism* box full of self-expanding foam -- so everything is > encased in a conformal block of foam (the plastic wrap > preventing the foam from migrating into the mechanism itself). > And pack the skin in "cheetos" (peanuts)? There is way to properly pack ASR-33 known on this list, but you may need to wait a day or so for that information. There is a TIE down bolt that you use with the base and the printer part. Does this have the reader/run relay option for use with a PDP-8? From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Aug 17 13:40:46 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:40:46 -0700 Subject: FTGH: NCD-{14c, 19r, 19c/88k} Message-ID: <44E4B82E.8020301@dakotacom.net> Hi, These need to find new homes :-( (I have too many of them) The 14c -- the lightest of them -- is probably shippable (though I suspect it would cost more than *most* folks would be willing to pay!). I suspect the 19r is too heavy for anything but local pickup (85751). The 19c *definitely* pushes the limit on weight (unless you just want the *base* and not the 75# of monitor! :> ). If no interest, I'll disembowel them so I can reverse engineer the electronics and then pitch the resulting "scrap" into the hazardous waste recycling service. (I *probably* will want to tear the 19c's monitor apart regardless as I've not been able to find any published information on it and have a couple of others like it that I will need to support :< ) You'll have to find your own keyboard/mouse (PS/2 keyboard and 9 pin mouse) as I'll hold onto these for my other NCD's. Thanks! --don From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Thu Aug 17 14:21:47 2006 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 21:21:47 +0200 Subject: summagraphics MM1103 tablet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E4C1CB.8010703@gmx.net> Hi, from the documentation of my MM1201: Appendix C Baud Rate and Data Format Baud Rate: 9600 Number of start bits: one Number of stop bits: one Number of data bits: eight One parity bit: odd Data format: -------------------------------------- 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 MSB bits LSB -------------------------------------- 1 PR 0 Sx Sy Fc Fb Fa byte 1 0 X6 X5 X4 X3 X2 X1 X0 byte 2 0 X13 X12 X11 X10 X9 X8 X7 byte 3 0 Y6 Y5 Y4 Y3 Y2 Y1 Y0 byte 4 0 Y13 Y12 Y11 Y10 Y9 Y8 Y7 byte 5 -------------------------------------- - LSB is the least significant bit. MSB is the most significant bit. - F is the flag bit, identifying the stylus or puck buttons being pressed: ------------------------------------- Stylus Puck Binary Output Buttons Buttons Fc Fb Fa ------------------------------------- none none 0 0 0 tip button 1 0 0 1 barrel button 2 0 1 0 tip and barrel 3 0 1 1 --- 4 1 0 0 --- 1+2 0 1 1 --- 1+3 0 1 1 --- 1+4 1 0 1 --- 2+3 0 1 1 --- 2+4 1 1 0 --- 1+2+3 0 1 1 --- 1+2+4 1 1 1 --- 2+3+4 1 1 1 --- 1+2+3+4 1 1 1 ------------------------------------- - Sy and Sx are the sign bits for the Y and X coordinates. 1 is positive. 0 is negative. - PR is the proximity bit. When the stylus or puck is in proximity, the bit is 0. When out of proximity, it is 1. - X0, X1, etc. and Y0, Y1, etc. are the X and Y coordinate bits. I can't remember if my MM1201 has any DIP switches inside. Hope this helps Gerold hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu wrote: >Hello Everyone, > >I ran across a Summagraphics MM1103 tablet. I see that there was a thread >on this list in 2004 regarding this device. Do we know the communication >protocol/format? Do we know what the 3 8-bit DIP switches inside do? Any >documentation or pointers to documentation would be appreciated. > >thanks, -kurt > > From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Aug 17 14:45:54 2006 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:45:54 +0100 Subject: summagraphics MM1103 tablet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E4C772.7030600@gifford.co.uk> hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu wrote: > I ran across a Summagraphics MM1103 tablet. ... > Do we know the communication protocol/format? > Do we know what the 3 8-bit DIP switches inside do? I have a Technical Reference manual for the MM1201 and MM961 tablets, plus a Bit Pad One manual. Would this help at all? -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 17 15:33:58 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 13:33:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apollo DN systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060817203358.5537.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> you all are goofy as hell. I'm 39, haven't (as of yet) modded any Windoze or Linaches boxes, own about 3 games that I've hardly if at all played, and my stuph is as old any of yours! Except maybe for those with those flipper switcher type keyboards for lack of a better term. The ice age didn't kill off the cockaroaches they say, but neither did it a few of those monstrosities! Membranes are as far back as I'll go! So get a life already goofy dudes! And a friggin sense of humor while yer at it! --- Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > On 8/17/06, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > > Dude, I'm very interested in that stuph > > > > Anyone who uses "dude" and "stuph" in a sentence > doesn't need to have > > anything other than a Linux box, preferably > "modded". > > > Nah. These are probably gamer "dudes" with modded > Windows boxes > (preferably the ones with a clear window case with > lots of blue > flashing leds). > > Disclaimer: I know quite a number of these "dudes" > in real life too. > Typically they're nice folks but they talk funny, > drink/eat lots of > caffeine and are very trigger-happy.. :-) > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From doc at mail.mdrconsult.com Thu Aug 17 09:26:42 2006 From: doc at mail.mdrconsult.com (doc at mail.mdrconsult.com) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 09:26:42 -0500 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <004101c6c1fb$f780c000$6400a8c0@barry> References: <200608170626.k7H6QEYs023986@dewey.classiccmp.org> <004101c6c1fb$f780c000$6400a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <20060817142642.GA22679@mail.mdrconsult.com> On Thu, Aug 17, 2006 at 08:52:15AM -0400, Barry Watzman wrote: > RE: > > >>I scan at 300 DPI MINIMUM for everything, but I sometimes scan at 600 > >>dpi if there is extremely fine detail present. > > >Agreed on the DPI front. What I tend to find unacceptable though, > >even on pure textual material, are bi-level scans - too much > >information from the original is lost" > > ******** > > Agreed. I NEVER scan anything as "black and white" (each pixel is black or > white). It just does not work well, ever, even for pure text that you would > think really is "black and white". I always scan monochrome material, even > text, as "grayscale". However, 8 bit depth (256 shades of gray) is all that > you need for such monochrome material (in fact it's even more than you > need), even if the scanner supports a greater depth. My job requires that I provide receipt copies of *every* expense I claim, no matter how small. I always scan the receipts at 1bpp, just to convey my irritation. Surprisingly, B&W 150dpi scans are typically very legible. I'm sure it wouldn't be good for OCR, even at a higher resolution, but it's usually readable even if the original is on colored paper. Doc From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 17 11:42:09 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 12:42:09 -0400 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) Message-ID: <0J45009QDI9P0TT1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) > From: Roger Merchberger > Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 09:15:15 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >OK, just kidding, but - to venture into where my brain & dynamic memory >part understanding, the 41256 uses a particular refresh[1] >which newer memory doesn't deal with well[2], so going *beyond* 512K is >problematic.[3] *If* I can figure out how to get 512K of SRAM to work in a >CoCo3, going *beyond* 512K might become a bit easier. > >Not to mention - going from SRAM to FRAM would be a pretty easy jump. A >CoCo3 with a "Suspend" switch could be *neat*. ;-) > >Or, I might be full of condensed milk, as my father-in-law used to say. > >Just my random thoughts for the day... > >Laterz, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger > >[1] 256 cycle / 8-bit counter / something like that. Did I mention that my >brain doesn't grok DRAM well??? ;-) > >[2] 512/1024 cycle / 9-10 bit counter / something like that. Just in case >you didn't catch it, I have DRAMophobia. ;-) Dram is "refreshed" or rewritten to keep the little capacitors from discharging. They are organized as rows and columns. The refresh process only needs a pass through every row within so many milliseconds (varies with part)to do the trick. Now as rams get bigger you natually have more rows and columns. But, while they were getting bigger they were also getting more complex. Sounds bad, huh? Well no! The complexity is in the logic to do the refresh. Parts in the late 4164 (64k) design life and later started turning up with their own internal refresh counter and by wiggling the RAS/ or CAS/ the right way and often enough they refresh themselves. Most of the big (41256 and larger) parts have this as well as most of the 30pin SIMM (256k, 1m and 4m, 16m) parts. Now for a lot more detail and great explantion see Tim Olmstead's DRAM paper available from Gaby's site http://www.cpm.z80.de/ "The Unofficial CP/M Web Site". Worthwhile reading for anyone mystified by Drams or phobic about them. FYI: the paper is Z80 centric but those that know it also know it only does 128 refresh. Yet, big (megabyte) rams can be hung off it due to the newer parts doing their own refresh thing. It all translates to other CPUs as well including those that don't do refresh for you at all (non z80 family). Allison From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Thu Aug 17 16:01:54 2006 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 22:01:54 +0100 Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" In-Reply-To: <44E49E28.8000507@dakotacom.net> References: <44E3A2F4.8@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060816184022.05885458@mail> <44E3CBA6.7010008@dakotacom.net> <1155798009.12871.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44E49E28.8000507@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20060817215228.035e0e90@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> At 17:49 17/08/2006, Don wrote: >No idea what a Sinclair Flat Screen TV is... :-( This used a CRT that was scanned from the /side/ .. Depth wasn't much, but you needed a comparatively wide box... This was an improvement on the first Sinclair handheld TV I encountered which was a about the size and weight of a small housebrick, with a tiny screen on the end. One I actually had myself, must be 20+ years ago, was a LCD based portable TV from, I think, Tandy (Radio Shack) which had an /optional/ backlight! Only about 2 x 4 x 0.5 inches, from memory. I think it used a mirror to capture ambient light instead. I used to use it on the train, where it was hampered only by continually having to re-tune as we passed between transmitters.. I seem to remember that at the time, I did try connecting it to a BBC micro, but res was too low to read even 40-column text. I've no idea what happened to it now.. think i lent it someone :-( Rob From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Aug 17 17:02:01 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 17:02:01 -0500 Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <200608171703.NAA10423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060817170008.0b0c4f40@localhost> Many catalogs referred to D-shell connectors as "socket" or "pin" (DB-25S, DB-25P) for a long time because the terms "male" and "female" were potentially confusing. Is the shell male/female? Are the connections themselves one or the other? What about those Sun connectors that have some of both in the same shell? At 01:02 PM 8/17/2006 -0400, you wrote: > > DB25S Connector > >What's a DB25*S*? > >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B "Some of my best leading men have been dogs and horses." -- Elizabeth Taylor --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From allain at panix.com Thu Aug 17 17:31:20 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 18:31:20 -0400 Subject: Apollo DN systems References: Message-ID: <00c401c6c24d$ddd17580$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > Just figured I'd post this out here... I have a collection of old Apollo > DN systems (3000,3010,3500,4000,4500,5500 I think sums it up) .disable quiet I am definitely interested in doing a revisit, and will be contacting you offline. Thanks again, Pete .enable quiet John A. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Aug 17 18:57:35 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:57:35 -0700 Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060817170008.0b0c4f40@localhost> References: <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> <5.1.0.14.2.20060817170008.0b0c4f40@localhost> Message-ID: <44E5026F.1070103@dakotacom.net> Tom Peters wrote: > Many catalogs referred to D-shell connectors as "socket" or "pin" > (DB-25S, DB-25P) for a long time because the terms "male" and "female" > were potentially confusing. Is the shell male/female? Are the The same argument applies to socket/plug (I've not seen "pin" used in this context -- though it makes more sense!) :> (female == socket; male == plug/pin) Even moreso since "plug" is also used in the context of *jack* (in which case, the plug is the device that experiences more motion -- regardless of the "sex" of the connector) > connections themselves one or the other? What about those Sun connectors > that have some of both in the same shell? Maybe they are just "confused as to their own sexuality"? ;-) From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Aug 17 18:58:14 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 19:58:14 -0400 Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060817215228.035e0e90@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> References: <44E3A2F4.8@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060816184022.05885458@mail> <44E3CBA6.7010008@dakotacom.net> <1155798009.12871.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44E49E28.8000507@dakotacom.net> <7.0.1.0.0.20060817215228.035e0e90@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <20060817235814.6F5E9BA4154@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Rob O'Donnell" wrote: > One I actually had myself, must be 20+ years ago, was a LCD based > portable TV from, I think, Tandy (Radio Shack) which had an > /optional/ backlight! Only about 2 x 4 x 0.5 inches, from memory. I > think it used a mirror to capture ambient light instead. I have that one! The LCD is on the inside of a fold up door. The outside of the door is a transluscent diffuser. Open the door, light shines from the outside through the diffuser, through the LCD, then onto the mirror and then you see it. Unless you have the optional backlight, in which case the door supports the weight of the backlight (in other words it barely stays up!) The LCD was a bit sluggish for anything but the most static video. If anything moves quickly it leaves an obvious ghost behind. I'm guessing that much of the Radio Shack stuff was designed in the far east (Japan? Taiwan?) and sold both there under some other brand name and in the US under the Radio Shack name. Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 17 17:46:00 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:46:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <44E3A0CB.40201@dakotacom.net> from "Don" at Aug 16, 6 03:48:43 pm Message-ID: > > The CoCo 3 is designed round a custom chip called GIME (Graphics, > > Interrupts, Memroy Enhancement). It handles all the video side, the > > memory mamangement (remmber the 6809 can only directly address 64K), etc. > > Said chip outputs a 9 bit multiplexed address (designed to link to the 9 > > addres pins on 256K bit DRAMs), and the DRAM timing signals. It also > > expects 16 bit wide memory IIRC. > > Ah, OK. > > > It's probably possible to add external circuitry to turn that back into a > > normal 18 bit address and hang SRAM off it, but I think it's more work > > than finding some 41256s... > > I would assume the controller would exploit page mode references > (especially when dealing with sequential accesses like video). I am not sure, and the service manual (which I have) doesn't make any obvious reference to this. > If so, this muddies any attempt to convert multiplexed > addresses back to a form suitable for SRAM (unless you use > SRAMs that also support page mode access!) > > Yes, assuming it produces an 18bit (9R+9C) address, 41256's It does... > would be the right way to go. > There are 2 standard memory configurations for the CoCo3. The first is a 128K system using 4 off 41464 (64K*4) chips on the mainboard. The second is a 512K system using a duaghterboard that takes 16 off 41256s. Note that 256K*4 parts can't easily be used, since IIRC they have 10 address lines and need a 10-8 split of the 18 address bits. I am really thinking back now, but there are a couple of RC networks on the CoCo3 board that fiddle the RAS and CAS timing. I seem to remember you remvoe at least one of the capacitors when you go from 128K to 512K (as well as pulling the 4 soccketed DRAMs from the mainboard [1] and fitting the daughterboard). I did this many years ago, when the CoCo3 was still in production. [1] And those 64K*4 chips are just what you need to bring CoCo2's from 16K to 64K. IIRC, that's where the ones from my CoCo3 ended up. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 17 17:49:15 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:49:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: from "Al Kossow" at Aug 16, 6 03:51:19 pm Message-ID: > > > > Firstly, this is, as I am sure you agree, not a list to provide answers > > to members questions. > > Thank you for the clarification. This will save me a great deal of time in > the future not researching answers to questions. Oh for %deity's sake.... What I meant was that this is not a list where you can expect (or should expect) just to get an answer to a question. There will be discussion, topic drift, and so on. There are, I believe, some lists where the members _only_ ask questions, which are then answered by private e-mail so the other posters never get the benefit of said answers, never the get the chance to comment on possible errors, and so on. I would not like classiccimp to go that way. But of course you (all of us) should attempt to answer on-topic questions if we can... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 17 17:58:06 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:58:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Archived a few PERQ games... In-Reply-To: <44E3A3DE.1070603@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Aug 16, 6 04:01:50 pm Message-ID: > > > > I don't know if it's any use to you, but _years_ ago I wrote a Turbo > > Pascal program (runs under MS-DOS) to read double-density PERQ > > 'interchange' floppies on a PC. As set up, it's designed to use a > > secondary controller in the PC (the XT on my desk has such a controller > > linked to a pair of 8" drives...). > > > > If you're interested (or if anyone else is interested) I can dig out the > > source code. I seem to remeber the original distribution terms were that > > I hold the copyright, but 'further distribution for the benefit of PERQ > > fanatics is encouraged). > > > > > I'd definitely be interested in having the software for future use; as OK, I will see if I can find it. I am happy for it to go on an ftp/web site, of course. > it currently stands I don't have any software on floppies to read so I > won't have much use for it. (Plus I still need to get an 8" floppy You can, of course, transfer data from the hard disk to a floppy on the PERQ ;-). > connected to a PC, I have one sitting around for the job but haven't > gotten around to hooking it up yet.) Or you could link a 5152" 1.2M floppy drive to the PERQ in place of the 8" one. I have info on the cable I made to do that... Using a 5.25" 1.2Mbyte floppy disk with the PERQ ------------------------------------------------ Data Cable PERQ EIO 5.25" Drive 1 o 2 o 3 o 4 o 5 o 6 o 7 o 8 o 9 o--Gnd-----+ 10 o--2 side--+ 11 o 12 o 13 o-----Gnd--------------------o 31 14 o-----Head Select------------o 32 15 o 16 o 17 o 18 o 19 o-----Gnd--------------------o 7 20 o-----Index------------------o 8 21 o-----Gnd--------------------o 33 22 o-----Ready------------------o 34 23 o 24 o 25 o-----Gnd--------------------o 11 26 o-----Drive Sel 0------------o 12 27 o 28 o +----Gnd---------------o 15 29 o +----Motor On----------o 16 30 o 31 o 32 o 33 o-----Gnd--------------------o 17 34 o-----Direction--------------o 18 35 o-----Gnd--------------------o 19 36 o-----Step-------------------o 20 37 o-----Gnd--------------------o 21 38 o-----Wr Data----------------o 22 39 o-----Gnd--------------------o 23 40 o-----Wr Gate----------------o 24 41 o-----Gnd--------------------o 25 42 o-----Trk 00-----------------o 26 43 o-----Gnd--------------------o 27 44 o-----Wr Prot----------------o 28 45 o-----Gnd--------------------o 29 46 o-----Rd Data----------------o 30 47 o 48 o 49 o 50 o Construction 1) Crimp 34 pin IDC edge connector to one end of 1m length of multicoloured IDC ribbon cable, so that pin 1 is connected to the first brown wire, and pin 34 to the last yellow wire. 2) At the other end of the cable, separate the wires between : 6,7 (blue,violet) 8,9 (grey, white) 10,11 (black, brown) 12,13 (red, orange) 14,15 (yellow,green) 16,17 (blue, violet) 30,31 (black, brown) 32,33 (red, orange) 3) Make the wide section (wires 17-30) about 8 cm long, by tearing back the other sections. 4) Crimp wires 17-30 (violet - black) to pins 33-46 of a 50 pin IDC edge connector. Remove the top part of the connector after crimping so that other wires can be added. 5) Similarly crimp 31,32 (brown and red) to 13,14 of the 50 pin edge connector, 33,34 (orange, yellow) to pins 21,22, 7,8 (violet, grey) to pins 19,20 and 11,12 (brown, red) to pins 25,26. 6) Crimp a short spare length of IDC wire between pins 9 and 10 of the 50 pin edge connector. Fit the top part, and press it firmly into place. 7) Cut off wires 1-6 (brown-blue), 9,10 (white, black), and 13,14 (orange, yellow). 8) Strip wires 15,16 (green, blue), and twist them together. Solder the connection, and insulate it with a short length of Heat-shrink sleeving Power Cable ----------- +5V and +12V to operate the floppy drive can be obtained from the Tablet Power Connector on the rear of PERQ2 machines. A suitable cable is given below. Check the connections to the floppy drive to make sure you have the +5 and +12 the right way round before you apply power. Some drives have the connections marked on the PCB. 4pin DIN (Plug Wire Side) Floppy Drive +--------- +5V ---------------------------(4 | o1 o---- +12V ---------------------------(1 o o | +--------- Gnd ---------------------------(2 +--------- Gnd ---------------------------(3 Drive links ----------- Set the drive to respond to Drive Select 1 (the default for PC drives) The PERQ will boot from floppy if the Ready pin (pin 34 of the 34 pin connector) is held low when th edrive is selected, and will not use the drive under any circumstances if the ready pin is high when the drive is selected. Some drives allow a Ready signal to be output on this line, often by setting an internal link. If this is possible, do it. Otherwise, _try_ connecting the ready input on the PERQ to the Drive Select output via a SPST switch. Close this switch when there is a floppy in the drive Notes ----- The PERQ checks for the drive being ready _before_ asserting the Head Load Signal, and thus the head load output cannot be used to drive the Motor On input. By tying the Motor On input low, the drive motor runs whenever there is a floppy in the drive. This is a good compromise, but may cause wear of the disk and heads if left there for an extended period. Do not leave a floppy disk in the drive if it is not being used The 2-side input of the PERQ is pulled low, so that the disk is assumed to be double sided. The cable links the top connector on the EIO board to a standard 1.2Mbyte 5.25" floppy. Pin 1 is at the top of the EIO board. The PERQ 8" drive rotates at 360rpm, as do 1.2Mbyte drives. However, tests have shown that a 300rpm drive will also work, although not all of its capacity will be used. Therefore, a 3.5" 1.44Mbyte drive is another possibility. > > If you need any help with accessing the hard disk, etc, I may well have > > useful information around. I certainly have things like the I/O port map, > > etc. > > > > > Definitely; I believe I have something working (it's chugging along as > we speak) using POS system calls; I've just uploaded the source of my > program to my site ( OK, I will take a look... > http://yahozna.dhs.org/computers/software/PERQ/dumpdisk.pas). Go easy > on me, it's both my first Pascal program and my first PERQ program, and Don't worry, I don't claim to be a programmer, I release source to stuff I've written mainly to give programmers a good laugh... > I haven't cleaned it up much. Might be useful for other people > interested in preserving the contents of their drives. > > Good luck. The PERQ is not a simple machine at all. Having managed to > > understand how the CPU works, I'd not want to try emulating it... > > > > And a PERQ 2 would be even worse. On that series, you can run user code > > on the I/O processor (Z80).... > > > > -tony > > > > > Yeah -- like I said, we'll see how it turns out :). There seems to be a > lot of available documentation on the system (microcode, etc...) so I'm AFAIK doscuemtnation for just about everything exists. There are full schematics for most machines (I think the 2T4 is missing). PROM/PAL dumps exist. Commented sources to the bootstrap ROMs and EIO Z80 ROM exist. I am not sure if there are sources for the Z80 ROM on the PERQ 1's CIO card, I can see (but I do know that the CIO and EIO ROMs are _very_ different). > hoping that's enough to get a good start -- and you sound like the > person to ask if it's not :). Feel free.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 17 18:49:15 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 00:49:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" In-Reply-To: <44E49E28.8000507@dakotacom.net> from "Don" at Aug 17, 6 09:49:44 am Message-ID: > > > > You get lots of small TV tubes. Would a camera viewfinder tube be *too* > > tiny? What about a Sinclair Flat Screen TV? > > No idea what a Sinclair Flat Screen TV is... :-( Sinclair sold a flat TV about 20 years ago. It had a CRT with the electron gun and deflection plates (electrostatic deflection) alongside the screen, which was at the back of the glass envelope. A +ve high voltage on the screen and a -ve high voltage on a transparaent electrode on the inside of the front face of the envelope 'kicked' the beam onto the screen. Note that (contrary to popular belief) Sinclair (or his company) did not invent this sort of CRT -- I've seen it in much older books. Anyway, the Siclair set was typically Sinclair. Components were marginally rated, the connecting pins to the CRT tended to break free from the glass (they were fitted over the edge, made contact with transparent conductive traces on the glase), etc. Most problems were repairable (I made my own contacts fro the CRT and put a drop of conductive paint between them and the CRT glass, for exampe), but it got tedious fast. I went back to more conventional CRTs in the end. An earlier Sinclair portable TV used a conventional (electrostatic deflection) CRT. About 2" diagonal screen, about 6" from front to back). I actually have a couple of brand-new spares in the junk box (and absolutely no data on them). > > *But*, I'd never thought of viewfinders in video cameras! > I'll have to find one and take it apart to look at the > mechanics. I suspect it is an in-line tube (since > the housing of most cameras would seem to accommodate > "depth", there) Yes, a normal, often electromagnetically-defelected CRT. Some cameras mount it along the axis of the camera. Others (particularly semi-professional models) have a removeable viewfinder assembly. In these, the CRT is mounted across the body of the camera, with a 45 degree mirror ro reflect the image into the eyepiece. If you can find one of these, you might be ablr to use the viewfinder module as-is. The connections will typically be a power input (12V?) and composite video, maybe with some extra signals for things like the record-on LED. The service manual should document the conenctions... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 17 18:50:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 00:50:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <200608171703.NAA10423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Aug 17, 6 01:02:31 pm Message-ID: > > > DB25S Connector > > What's a DB25*S*? A 25 pin _S_ocket connector in a DB size shell. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 17 18:55:08 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 00:55:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: ASR-33 In-Reply-To: <44E4AA1A.2090208@dakotacom.net> from "Don" at Aug 17, 6 10:40:42 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > I am desperately trying to make room here so my ASR-33 has got to go. > I'll either eBay it or ship it off for "long term storage" ;-) > > In either case, I need to pack it so it will survive the > UPS gorillas. > > I figured pull the mechanism off the base (is the base REALLY > worth saving??) and put it in one box (the mechanism) and Remember there's the reader power supply in the stand (and maybe other electronics). > the "skin" in another. Wrap each in plastic. Shoot the > *mechanism* box full of self-expanding foam -- so everything is > encased in a conformal block of foam (the plastic wrap > preventing the foam from migrating into the mechanism itself). > And pack the skin in "cheetos" (peanuts)? > > Does this sound like a safe approach? It usually works for NO! I assume by 'mechanism' you mean the whole machine, keyboard, reader, 'typing unit', etc. Now, the 'typing unit' -- the main mechanical chassis is _not_ fixed down. It rests on rubber mounts, only, If it comes loose in shipping, and it will, it will do a lot of damage. Eithter fit the shipping screw (if you have it) into the hole on the bottom to anchor the typing unit to the base pan. Or remove the cover, unhoom the H-plate that links the typing unit to the keyboard (rear right of the keyboard), unplug the cables at the back of the call control unit, and remove the typing unit completely. Pack that separately. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 17 18:28:18 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 00:28:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: LSI 11/2 question In-Reply-To: <4743ee6a394b42efaa0a620d757d5333@valleyimplants.com> from "Scott Quinn" at Aug 16, 6 11:47:11 pm Message-ID: > I have the opporitunity of getting some LSI 11/2 boards (LSI 11/2 > processor, some memory, serial MUX, RK floppy driver) (I think) > > Couple questions: will the multiport serial work for a console or do I > need a specific "console" card? A 'MUX' in DECs terminology meant a multi-port serial card where all the ports effectively share the same I/O addresses (think of the DZ11 -- there's one 16 bit input for the received data, the low 8 bits are the character and some of the top 8 bits tell you which channel it came from). Such a card will _not_ work as the console interface. However, in Qbus systems there's a very common 4-port serial card which is not a Mux. Each port has it's own I/O addresses. This is the DLV11-J, and there are specific jumper options to make port 3 (IIRC) into the console port. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 17 18:33:10 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 00:33:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" In-Reply-To: <1155798009.12871.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Aug 17, 6 08:00:09 am Message-ID: > > Do you have a pointer to anything worth looking into? > > Small/tiny? > > You get lots of small TV tubes. Would a camera viewfinder tube be *too* Although the screen on those is small, the CRT can be quite long (Either mounted along the video camera body, or across it, with a mirror to reflect the screen into the eyepiece). > tiny? What about a Sinclair Flat Screen TV? Be warned that that is a typical Sinclair design with some very marginally-rated components (the HV rectifer diodes are nothing of the sort!). The CRT is interesting, although quite wide, with the electron gun assembly mounted alongside the screen and electrodes to deflect the beam onto the screen. If you want to use one, try to get the entire TV. You need some scan correction (Due to the different distance of the 2 edges of the screen from the gun, the natural raster is wedge-shaped!). The Microvision TV contains a custom chip (22 pins IIRC) that contains this stuff, the scan oscillators, the IF strip, and so on. Fortuately, it is possible to feed composite video into it somwhow (I forget the exact details, I have some notes _somewhere_. I played around with one of these years ago, gave up when I got fed up with the number of poor design decisions in the original.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 17 18:39:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 00:39:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060817085628.0568da20@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Aug 17, 6 09:15:15 am Message-ID: > > It would be a lot easier to stick 16 of those into a CoCo 3 to get it > > up to 512K. > > But the *boards* to stick 'em in aren't exactly easy to find, and Cloud 9 Err, it's just traces to link the DRAMs to the connectors. And isn't the track layout in the service manual (you do have the service manual, right?). In which case it would be a lot easier to make your own daughterboard than to mess around trying to kludge SRAMs onto the GIME. There were a lot of myths about how critical the layout was with DRAM (and Rainbow printed some of them). Yes, you do need to take care. It is a high-speed circuit, you should try to keep traces the same length, decoupling is _essential_ as is a low-impedance ground track. But to be honest, making an SRAM board that runs at the same speed is no easier. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 17 19:10:29 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 17:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060817170700.V21324@shell.lmi.net> > > *But*, I'd never thought of viewfinders in video cameras! On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, a normal, often electromagnetically-defelected CRT. Some cameras > mount it along the axis of the camera. Others (particularly > semi-professional models) have a removeable viewfinder assembly. In > these, the CRT is mounted across the body of the camera, with a 45 degree > mirror ro reflect the image into the eyepiece. If you can find one of > these, you might be ablr to use the viewfinder module as-is. The > connections will typically be a power input (12V?) and composite video, > maybe with some extra signals for things like the record-on LED. The > service manual should document the conenctions... There have been B&W and color. The B&W is, of course, capable of higher resolution than the color. I was pleasantly surprised at being able to read 80x25 CGA text on one. From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Aug 17 19:11:52 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:11:52 -0400 Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" References: <44E3A2F4.8@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060816184022.05885458@mail> <44E3CBA6.7010008@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <002501c6c25a$fe2b8cf0$0100a8c0@screamer> What about the CRT 'viewfinder' from an older cam-corder. These actually use tiny CRTs! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 9:51 PM Subject: Re: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" > John Foust wrote: >> At 05:57 PM 8/16/2006, Don wrote: >>> I'm looking for a working Sony WATCHman (NOT *walk*man) >>> for a wearable I am hacking together. >> >> I know that mine, like those of many others, has suffered some sort >> of erosion of the interconnect to the video display, and has a white scan >> line running across the bottom third of the display. > > Really? I hadn't realized that there was such a "common > failure mode". But, I am unsure of what you are describing... > Is the lower third of the display a "solid white band"? > Or, is the *retrace* visible on the lower third of the > display (i.e. the correct image is present but with a zig-zag > line "scratched" through it)? > >> On the other hand, if you just need a composite-in video LCD, those are >> cheap and not rare these days. > > I was hoping to find a monochrome CRT instead of an LCD. > Color isn't a requirement. Monochrome LCD's are poor quality. > And LCD's impose a certain resolution on the display > contents. The watchman was the only *tiny* device that > I could think of that fit the bill :-( > > Do you have a pointer to anything worth looking into? > Small/tiny? > > Thanks! > --don > From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 19:27:01 2006 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Madcrow Maxwell) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:27:01 -0400 Subject: Attention PDP-8 Fans Message-ID: <8dd2d95c0608171727n1d8e11feve3a85659e5f67758@mail.gmail.com> I've started a new wiki on the Wikia Scratchpad about the exploration of computer history through emulation and my first digital "victim" is the PDP-8. I have the outline of a basic PDP-8 (OS/8) in SIMH started, but I still need to flesh it out. I'll probably write my basic OS/8 tutorial tommorow, but input from more experienced fans would be welcome. Various articles (any red link) need to be written and while I plan on wrting most of them if need be, help from the community would be much appreciated. Just remember that your audience is presumably going to be curious newbies, not "old hands" who just need a little reminder. That said I look forward to your comments and contributions. Main Wiki Page: http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/Computer_History_Exploration PDP-8 Article: http://scratchpad.wikia.com/wiki/PDP-8 Michael "Madcrow" K. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 17 19:39:00 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:39:00 -0400 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1ffe8679570094630b182764da95b836@neurotica.com> On Aug 17, 2006, at 7:39 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > There were a lot of myths about how critical the layout was with DRAM > (and Rainbow printed some of them). Yes, you do need to take care. It > is > a high-speed circuit, you should try to keep traces the same length, > decoupling is _essential_ as is a low-impedance ground track. But to be > honest, making an SRAM board that runs at the same speed is no easier. From 1986 to early 1988 I worked on the Navier-Stokes Supercomputer Project at Princeton University. Each node of that machine had four 4MW memory planes (36-bit word) built from 41256 chips; 576 chips per memory plane, handled by a pair of Intel 8207 DRAM controllers. We had really nasty problems with the refresh cycles creating tons of noise on the Vcc bus. Man that was a nightmare; it took weeks to get it cleaned up. If I recall correctly we wound up rebuilding the boards with a bypass capacitor for every DRAM chip. Incidentally, that computer was built in DEC OEM chassis of the same style used in PDP-11/24 and /44 systems. DEC sold those chassis unlabeled, along with optional blank backplanes, for customers to build whatever they wanted to...DEC-machine related or not, computer-related or not. We used the DEC backplanes and built our boards in the Unibus form factor. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Aug 17 19:36:56 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:36:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060817170008.0b0c4f40@localhost> References: <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> <5.1.0.14.2.20060817170008.0b0c4f40@localhost> Message-ID: <200608180045.UAA14554@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> DB25S Connector >> What's a DB25*S*? > Many catalogs referred to D-shell connectors as "socket" or "pin" > (DB-25S, DB-25P) for a long time because the terms "male" and > "female" were potentially confusing. I find "socket" and "pin" more confusing, because, honestly, my initial reaction is that they refer to the same sex. D-shell connectors normally have male and female as seen from the point of view of the signal-carrying pins reversed from male and female as seen from the point of view of the outer shell. To me, "socket" is the female side from the point of view of the outer shell, and "pin" is male from the point of view of the signal-carrying conductors - which are the same side. > Is the shell male/female? Are the connections themselves one or the > other? What about those Sun connectors that have some of both in the > same shell? I never thought about it, but you're right: a 13W3 has *four* potential views of male and female: the DB shell, the 10 signal pins, the three co-ax signals from the POV their own outer conductor and insulating body, and the co-ax signals from the POV of their axial conductor. And, of course, it's as confusing as possible: each sex of connector has two of those male and the other two female. Oddly enough, I tend to view the co-ax "pins" as being the same sex as the 10 individual pins, *but*, a phone plug/jack in isolation I view the other way around, from the POV of the axial conductor. Odd. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Aug 17 20:04:08 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 18:04:08 -0700 Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <200608180045.UAA14554@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> <5.1.0.14.2.20060817170008.0b0c4f40@localhost> <200608180045.UAA14554@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44E51208.5060009@dakotacom.net> der Mouse wrote: >>>> DB25S Connector >>> What's a DB25*S*? >> Many catalogs referred to D-shell connectors as "socket" or "pin" >> (DB-25S, DB-25P) for a long time because the terms "male" and >> "female" were potentially confusing. > > I find "socket" and "pin" more confusing, because, honestly, my initial > reaction is that they refer to the same sex. Sounds like someone could benefit from a good anatomy text! ;-) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Aug 17 20:11:52 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 21:11:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <44E51208.5060009@dakotacom.net> References: <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> <5.1.0.14.2.20060817170008.0b0c4f40@localhost> <200608180045.UAA14554@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44E51208.5060009@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608180112.VAA14733@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I find "socket" and "pin" more confusing, because, honestly, my >> initial reaction is that they refer to the same sex. > Sounds [as though] someone could benefit from a good anatomy text! ;-) Heh. Let me rephrase that.... I find "socket" and "pin" more confusing, because, honestly, my initial reaction is that they refer to the same connector. Better? :) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Aug 17 20:16:27 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 18:16:27 -0700 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <1ffe8679570094630b182764da95b836@neurotica.com> References: <1ffe8679570094630b182764da95b836@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44E514EB.3050407@dakotacom.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Aug 17, 2006, at 7:39 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> There were a lot of myths about how critical the layout was with DRAM >> (and Rainbow printed some of them). Yes, you do need to take care. It is >> a high-speed circuit, you should try to keep traces the same length, >> decoupling is _essential_ as is a low-impedance ground track. But to be >> honest, making an SRAM board that runs at the same speed is no easier. > > From 1986 to early 1988 I worked on the Navier-Stokes Supercomputer > Project at Princeton University. Each node of that machine had four 4MW > memory planes (36-bit word) built from 41256 chips; 576 chips per memory > plane, handled by a pair of Intel 8207 DRAM controllers. We had really > nasty problems with the refresh cycles creating tons of noise on the Vcc You need to stagger refresh in big arrays. Just like gating RAS/CAS to only those banks that *need* to see them for *this* particular cycle -- for exactly this reason. The problem is present even on small arrays. > bus. Man that was a nightmare; it took weeks to get it cleaned up. If > I recall correctly we wound up rebuilding the boards with a bypass > capacitor for every DRAM chip. I worked on a "600 pin tester" (i.e. be able to stimulate and monitor the states of 600 different signals on the unit-under-test) in the late 70's. The "stimulus memory" was two "doors" (large -- ~18" x ~60" -- wirewrapped panels on hinges fed with *thick* copper bars for power distribution) full of bipolar & ECL memory devices. I.e. *hundreds* of amperes. Due to the mix and match of logic families (CMOS/TTL/ECL), you had lots of odd supply voltages on the boards (-5.2, -1.2, +5, +12, etc.) -- in addition to the other supplies for the "pin drivers" (the UUT is driven with signal levels that are programmed from a variable range of output voltages). Needless to say, *lots* of decoupling capacitors *everywhere*. When the boards came in from the wirewrap house, there was a short between two of the supplies (or, perhaps, a supply and ground). Trying to figure out *where* the short could be in a panel of that size COVERED with teflon wires was HUGELY intimidating! Long story short: the bypass caps were the wrong voltage. So, as soon as power was applied, the HUGE power supplies would very happily fry each cap to a dead short. Happy ending: wire wrap vendor had installed the caps so wire wrap vendor had to do the rework! ;-) From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Aug 17 20:14:28 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:14:28 -0500 Subject: first Classics (WAS Apollo DN systems) Message-ID: <7359342594f345108e1880642ebe6286@valleyimplants.com> The DN discussion left me thinking about how classic computer collecting was presented to the outside world. One of the things that stood out rapidly was that I would not recommend an Apollo as a first foray into the classic world (I know that in this circumstance it isn't a first foray, just thinking in general). So, I started thinking about what would be a good starter system. So far, I've come up with Sun-3 or Sun-4 (good availability of information, easy software accesablilty (NetBSD works well, Solaris/SunOS isn't bad if you can find it, although Sun licensing is the strictest of all the options here, with no transfers allowed). Open hardware, easy-availability of parts and upgrades. Headers come with, SunOS 4 comes with cc. Silicon Graphics IRISes of the ARCS era. Goodly amount of information (sgistuff.g-lenerz.de and futuretech are put out/aided/etc by listmembers yay!!) Software is harder to come by, NetBSD isn't very well supported on these beasts and IRIX is pricy (but the license transfers with the machine). Compilers available for 5.3, headers for 6.2 and 6.5. Parts are available readily for many classic IRISes, less so for the biggish-iron (ultramicros? what would you call those...) machines or newer machines. High cool factor. I ruled out IBM (non-PCs) because of software and some unusual hardware choices, DEC due to hard-to-find hardware parts on VAX and the highly confusing mess with Alpha (play the "will my machine run VMS or Tru64" game - step right up, watch the pea...) Apollo because of hard-to-find S/W and limited information on the net. HP 9000 could be a contender, too. - good NetBSD support, (currently) free HP-UX, good online documentation, well-built machines. You'll note this is pretty much limited to UNIX workstations, because of my space limitations and my assumption that UNIX will make for a easier transition. Any other ideas? From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Aug 17 20:31:27 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:31:27 -0500 Subject: LSI 11/2 question Message-ID: Got a few of my numbers backwards- the boards are in reality An PDP-11/03 processor, LSI-11 quad-height M7264EB (does anything go out over the C/D fingers, or are they just there for stability?) DHV11-A 8-line async serial RXV11 (forgot the V originally...) either MSV11-B 4k RAM or MSV11-PL 256K ram (18-bit, but will the LSI-11 just ignore the extra or will it futz up?) Am I getting in too deep for a first-go at a PDP-11? These were offered in trade for a scope, and I don't have any other PDP stuff (it would timeshare a VAX 4200 chassis with the VAX, with a very advanced "card-pull" scheduler to prevent conflicts). Scott From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Aug 17 20:43:01 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:43:01 -0500 Subject: The KS/NE Trip is Booked Message-ID: <00de01c6c267$a5caa8e0$23406b43@66067007> Great News !!!! I have received enough in donations to pay for the KS/NE trip next month on Sept 8th. I now need just 135 more people to donate $10 or whatever amount they can from $1 to $$$ book the GA trip to rescue those items. Remember your donation is tax deducible and is for a great cause. Thanks to everyone that donated to make the KS/NE trip a go. I will get lots of pictures and hope the drive back will be smooth. Read more about the two trips at www.houstoncomputermuseum.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 20:59:00 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 21:59:00 -0400 Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <200608180045.UAA14554@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> <5.1.0.14.2.20060817170008.0b0c4f40@localhost> <200608180045.UAA14554@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: > I find "socket" and "pin" more confusing, because, honestly, my initial > reaction is that they refer to the same sex. Sooooo...when is the last time you went on a date? -- Will From marvin at rain.org Thu Aug 17 20:59:08 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 18:59:08 -0700 Subject: Stuff for Sale Message-ID: <44E51EEC.CB8CA162@rain.org> I am in the process of doing a major downsize in the collection. Most of what I am getting rid of will be posted on the Vintage Computer Marketplace, probably at the rate of 5 - 10 items per day. The URL of the Vintage Computer Marketplace is: http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/ My real interests are in the pre 1981 era although I will be keeping a few interesting later machines from the early 80's. What I intend to concentrate on are the Polymorphic and Lobo Drives computers since they were made here in Santa Barbara, and I still have enough contacts to find people who used to work there. And of course, I'll still be working with anything *I* find interesting :). From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 21:07:36 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 22:07:36 -0400 Subject: first Classics (WAS Apollo DN systems) In-Reply-To: <7359342594f345108e1880642ebe6286@valleyimplants.com> References: <7359342594f345108e1880642ebe6286@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: > I ruled out IBM (non-PCs) because of software and some unusual > hardware choices, DEC due to hard-to-find hardware parts on VAX > and the highly confusing mess with Alpha How are IBM machines any more unusual than Sun - POWER vs. SPARC? Or POWER vs. MIPS for that matter? And how are DEC parts hard to find? Ebay, as well as more than a few reasonable resellers (some on this list)... And why be stuck in the UNIX world? Hell, once a machine is running a Unix variant, they all start to look like every kidz Linux machine... -- Will From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 17 21:20:07 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 21:20:07 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory References: Message-ID: <00a301c6c26c$d4e1c460$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written... >> Firstly, this is, as I am sure you agree, not a list to provide answers >> to members questions. Oh good god, I guess I shouldn't have stopped following this thread. Time to go back.... Jay From waisun.chia at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 21:36:53 2006 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:36:53 +0800 Subject: first Classics (WAS Apollo DN systems) In-Reply-To: References: <7359342594f345108e1880642ebe6286@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: On 8/18/06, William Donzelli wrote: > And why be stuck in the UNIX world? Hell, once a machine is running a > Unix variant, they all start to look like every kidz Linux machine... Exactly. I'm a Unix professional by day, and if on my free time playing with classic computers I'm still doing *nix, I'd be bored to death. I'll be further frustrated because a lot of the modern commands that I'm used to doesn't exist in 20+ year old *nix variants (nah, I'm not talking about Gnome/X11/KDE, more to stuff like lvm, ssh, etc.). This is all moot unless you're talking about the original Unix kernel from Ken Thompsom written in PDP7 assembler (circa August 1969)! :-) Perhaps the only interesting (more feasible) Unix variant that I'd ever run on a classic computer is probably the original V6 or V7 on a 11/40 (if I ever lay my grubby little fingers on one of those babies, espcially the disks!). From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 17 22:47:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:47:01 -0700 Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: References: <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> <5.1.0.14.2.20060817170008.0b0c4f40@localhost> <200608180045.UAA14554@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200608172047010665.0296DC5D@10.0.0.252> On 8/17/2006 at 9:59 PM William Donzelli wrote: >> I find "socket" and "pin" more confusing, because, honestly, my initial >> reaction is that they refer to the same sex. I've got some odd twinax connectors (the core of each is divided into two D-shaped sections, one with a pin, the other with a socket; so the things are either genderless or hermaphorditic. They're differentiated only according to being bulkhead or cable, but you can connect cable-to-cable or bulkhead-to-bulkhead or bulkhead-to-cable... Cheers, Chuck From paul0926 at comcast.net Thu Aug 17 18:59:31 2006 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 17:59:31 -0600 Subject: ASR-33 In-Reply-To: <44E4AA1A.2090208@dakotacom.net> References: <44E4AA1A.2090208@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: > In either case, I need to pack it so it will survive the > UPS gorillas. Where are you located? Maybe someone close to you will want it and they can drive to pick it up. > > I figured pull the mechanism off the base (is the base REALLY > worth saving??) I think it is. From walter at kaiserseder.de Thu Aug 17 19:14:48 2006 From: walter at kaiserseder.de (Walter Kaiserseder) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 02:14:48 +0200 Subject: ISIS-II Message-ID: <000001c6c25b$5179ff40$0200a8c0@inlogikc71efae> Hi Steve, i'm located in Germany, an i was responsible for INTEL from 1980 to 1986 at an Distributor. I found your ISIS-II stuff, when i'm looking for an CrossAsm for Mostek MK3870. If you need something i've a lot of original INTEL Software for ISIS-II and ISIS-III, and also Literature - feel free to ask me I read you have disassembled ISIS-II, - i'm interested in the source code. Also i'm looking for an XASM running on ISIS-II for MOSTEK MK3870 an Single Chip Controller based on the FAIRCHILD F8. Greetings from Germany Walter From paulrsm at buckeye-express.com Fri Aug 18 03:52:44 2006 From: paulrsm at buckeye-express.com (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 04:52:44 -0400 Subject: free stuff near Toledo Message-ID: <380-22006851885244759@buckeye-express.com> The Toledo craigslist just posted the following for free: - An SGI Indy with its giant, heavy monitor. - An HP PA-RISC Pizza box machine with its heavier-than-the-Indy's monitor. I am not interested, but I could help someone else get them. -- Paul R. Santa-Maria Temperance, Michigan USA From cc at corti-net.de Fri Aug 18 04:09:14 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:09:14 +0200 (CEST) Subject: TRS-80 Model II Message-ID: Hi, A friend of mine needs to repair the power supply of a TRS-80 Model II. I've found a schematic but without part numbers and values! He needs to know the type of transistor Q1, there are no markings on the case of the transistor. I've checked the power supply of my Model II, and there are no markings, too. The Technical Reference Manual has all schematics for the Model II, but the schematic for the power supply is useless without component values. Might a BU208 for Q1 do the job? Christian From shirsch at adelphia.net Fri Aug 18 07:32:24 2006 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:32:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: first Classics (WAS Apollo DN systems) In-Reply-To: <7359342594f345108e1880642ebe6286@valleyimplants.com> References: <7359342594f345108e1880642ebe6286@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Scott Quinn wrote: > > > The DN discussion left me thinking about how classic computer > collecting was presented to the outside world. One of the things that > stood out rapidly was that I would not recommend an Apollo as a first > foray into the classic world (I know that in this circumstance it isn't > a first foray, just thinking in general). So, I started thinking about > what would be a good starter system. So far, I've come up with (unices snipped) > > You'll note this is pretty much limited to UNIX workstations, because of > my space limitations and my assumption that UNIX will make for a easier > transition. > > Any other ideas? I have to reluctantly agree that Unix may not be the best entry into classic collecting. My choice would be the Apple 2 series and/or Commodore VIC-20 and 64. These are cheap and plentiful with lots of information and software available on the net. Steve -- From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 18 08:05:23 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 09:05:23 -0400 Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: References: <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> <5.1.0.14.2.20060817170008.0b0c4f40@localhost> <200608180045.UAA14554@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2006, at 9:59 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I find "socket" and "pin" more confusing, because, honestly, my >> initial >> reaction is that they refer to the same sex. > > Sooooo...when is the last time you went on a date? SODA -> MONITOR -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri Aug 18 08:07:22 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 09:07:22 -0400 Subject: first Classics (WAS Apollo DN systems) In-Reply-To: References: <7359342594f345108e1880642ebe6286@valleyimplants.com> <7359342594f345108e1880642ebe6286@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060818084924.03c6df00@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Steven N. Hirsch may have mentioned these words: >On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Scott Quinn wrote: > > > You'll note this is pretty much limited to UNIX workstations, because of > > my space limitations and my assumption that UNIX will make for a easier > > transition. One must ask oneself - transition *from what*? If one is "transitioning" from OS/400, I doubt there's any micro available that will be easier than any other... ;-) >I have to reluctantly agree that Unix may not be the best entry into >classic collecting. My choice would be the Apple 2 series and/or >Commodore VIC-20 and 64. These are cheap and plentiful with lots of >information and software available on the net. Depends. If you are coming from a Unix/Linux world, *or* started out with the GWBASIC crowd, a Tandy (CoCo|Model3/4|etc.) might be easier to get accustomed to as there will be less of a learning curve with the Basic (or in the *nix case, OS-9 on a CoCo). Parts are still cheap, plentiful, and some are even swappable with the IBM scene; not to mention utilities to write to cross-platform floppies & whatnot; which is a bit tougher in the GCR world. However, I agree that if it is your first foray into the world of classics, a small cheap 8-bitter is definitely the way to go. [[ Oh and Will: When the other poster mentioned IBM, he might've been referencing AS/400 or System/36-type machines. I certainly wouldn't recommend anything of that vintage from IBM for a beginner! ;-) However, PowerPC vs. Sparc vs. Alpha vs. Mips vs. Geode vs. every other durned CPU *nix has been ported to really isn't an issue. ;-) ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 18 08:43:21 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 06:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: from Dave McGuire at "Aug 18, 6 09:05:23 am" Message-ID: <200608181343.k7IDhMEJ009366@floodgap.com> > > > I find "socket" and "pin" more confusing, because, honestly, my initial > > > reaction is that they refer to the same sex. > > > > Sooooo...when is the last time you went on a date? > > SODA -> MONITOR Mine too. And it was a nice 19" CRT. I'll send him the bill. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- /etc/motd: /earth is 98% full. please delete anyone you can. --------------- From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Aug 18 09:26:29 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:26:29 -0400 Subject: ASR-33 In-Reply-To: References: <44E4AA1A.2090208@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608181026.29572.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 17 August 2006 19:59, Paul Heller wrote: > > In either case, I need to pack it so it will survive the > > UPS gorillas. > > Where are you located? Maybe someone close to you will want it and > they can drive to pick it up. > > > I figured pull the mechanism off the base (is the base REALLY > > worth saving??) > > I think it is. I've got one, but no ASR-33... want my base? :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Aug 18 09:55:16 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 07:55:16 -0700 Subject: ASR-33 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: ASR-33 >Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 00:55:08 +0100 (BST) > > > > > Hi, > > > > I am desperately trying to make room here so my ASR-33 has got to go. > > I'll either eBay it or ship it off for "long term storage" ;-) > > > > In either case, I need to pack it so it will survive the > > UPS gorillas. > > > > I figured pull the mechanism off the base (is the base REALLY > > worth saving??) and put it in one box (the mechanism) and > >Remember there's the reader power supply in the stand (and maybe other >electronics). > > > the "skin" in another. Wrap each in plastic. Shoot the > > *mechanism* box full of self-expanding foam -- so everything is > > encased in a conformal block of foam (the plastic wrap > > preventing the foam from migrating into the mechanism itself). > > And pack the skin in "cheetos" (peanuts)? > > > > Does this sound like a safe approach? It usually works for > >NO! > >I assume by 'mechanism' you mean the whole machine, keyboard, reader, >'typing unit', etc. Now, the 'typing unit' -- the main mechanical chassis >is _not_ fixed down. It rests on rubber mounts, only, If it comes loose >in shipping, and it will, it will do a lot of damage. > >Eithter fit the shipping screw (if you have it) into the hole on the >bottom to anchor the typing unit to the base pan. Or remove the cover, >unhoom the H-plate that links the typing unit to the keyboard (rear right >of the keyboard), unplug the cables at the back of the call control unit, >and remove the typing unit completely. Pack that separately. > >-tony > Hi I also recommend removing the motor and shipping it separate. It makes the pan so unbalanced that it will not stay in one possition of in packing material. Also wrap everything in plastic sheet to keep packing material out of the works. Nothing worse than spending 10 hour getting bits of syrofoam out of the printer or keyboard! Dwight From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 18 10:10:49 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:10:49 -0400 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <44E514EB.3050407@dakotacom.net> References: <1ffe8679570094630b182764da95b836@neurotica.com> <44E514EB.3050407@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <04d4a7ffdcf0b969d0f8dab9bee4fff3@neurotica.com> On Aug 17, 2006, at 9:16 PM, Don wrote: >>> There were a lot of myths about how critical the layout was with DRAM >>> (and Rainbow printed some of them). Yes, you do need to take care. >>> It is >>> a high-speed circuit, you should try to keep traces the same length, >>> decoupling is _essential_ as is a low-impedance ground track. But to >>> be >>> honest, making an SRAM board that runs at the same speed is no >>> easier. >> From 1986 to early 1988 I worked on the Navier-Stokes Supercomputer >> Project at Princeton University. Each node of that machine had four >> 4MW memory planes (36-bit word) built from 41256 chips; 576 chips per >> memory plane, handled by a pair of Intel 8207 DRAM controllers. We >> had really nasty problems with the refresh cycles creating tons of >> noise on the Vcc > > You need to stagger refresh in big arrays. Just like gating > RAS/CAS to only those banks that *need* to see them for *this* > particular cycle -- for exactly this reason. The problem > is present even on small arrays. Yeah, I know that *now*...but I was sixteen at the time and DRAM was very much a mystery to me. I'd done a lot with SRAMs but avoided DRAMs like the plague. >> bus. Man that was a nightmare; it took weeks to get it cleaned up. >> If I recall correctly we wound up rebuilding the boards with a bypass >> capacitor for every DRAM chip. > > I worked on a "600 pin tester" (i.e. be able to > stimulate and monitor the states of 600 different signals > on the unit-under-test) in the late 70's. The "stimulus > memory" was two "doors" (large -- ~18" x ~60" -- wirewrapped > panels on hinges fed with *thick* copper bars for power > distribution) full of bipolar & ECL memory devices. > I.e. *hundreds* of amperes. Holy cow!! > Needless to say, *lots* of decoupling capacitors *everywhere*. I can imagine! > When the boards came in from the wirewrap house, there was a > short between two of the supplies (or, perhaps, a supply > and ground). Trying to figure out *where* the short could be > in a panel of that size COVERED with teflon wires was HUGELY > intimidating! This I can also imagine! I remember how much trouble it was to find wiring errors in Unibus-sized boards. If I recall correctly we had an average of 350 chips per board, and tens of thousands of wires. > Long story short: the bypass caps were the wrong voltage. > So, as soon as power was applied, the HUGE power supplies would > very happily fry each cap to a dead short. UGH!!! > Happy ending: wire wrap vendor had installed the caps so > wire wrap vendor had to do the rework! ;-) :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Aug 18 10:51:41 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:51:41 -0500 Subject: MULTICS manuals In-Reply-To: <200608170017.k7H0HAnT006222@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <001b01c6c2de$32df2190$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> > > The library does not care if documentation is old and out of date Neither does anyone on this list either, but I digress *chuckle* :) From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Fri Aug 18 11:09:15 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 09:09:15 -0700 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <04d4a7ffdcf0b969d0f8dab9bee4fff3@neurotica.com> References: <1ffe8679570094630b182764da95b836@neurotica.com> <44E514EB.3050407@dakotacom.net> <04d4a7ffdcf0b969d0f8dab9bee4fff3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44E5E62B.3060609@dakotacom.net> Dave McGuire wrote: >> I worked on a "600 pin tester" (i.e. be able to >> stimulate and monitor the states of 600 different signals >> on the unit-under-test) in the late 70's. The "stimulus >> memory" was two "doors" (large -- ~18" x ~60" -- wirewrapped >> panels on hinges fed with *thick* copper bars for power >> distribution) full of bipolar & ECL memory devices. >> I.e. *hundreds* of amperes. > > Holy cow!! Yeah. Before starting work each day, you would remove your wristwatch, wedding ring, belt buckle, etc. Sure, everything was "low voltage" (I think the pin drivers max'ed out at 64V -- or maybe 32? The power supplies were digitally programmable so it was some nice binary number...). So, you weren't worried about getting electrocuted but, rather, *cooked*! One of my buddy's could never get his wedding band off so he would have to wrap it in a bandaid. Of course, bandaids are (back then) pseudo-flesh-colored so the standing joke was that he was having an affair and needed to keep his wedding band/marital status out of view! ;-) >> When the boards came in from the wirewrap house, there was a >> short between two of the supplies (or, perhaps, a supply >> and ground). Trying to figure out *where* the short could be >> in a panel of that size COVERED with teflon wires was HUGELY >> intimidating! > > This I can also imagine! I remember how much trouble it was to find > wiring errors in Unibus-sized boards. If I recall correctly we had an > average of 350 chips per board, and tens of thousands of wires. And it's all (deliberately) point to point so it's truly tangled. I still am unconvinced that the beast could actually *work* given that *apparently* random fabrication technique (the array was clocked at 100MHz -- no, it must have been 125MHz because the cycle time was 8ns). Perhaps the designers had carefully considered *placement* of the components and thus indirectly influenced signal lengths, etc. TIP: An embroidery hook works wonders for fishing wirewrap wires out of a nest without too much damage! ;-) (but you have to find the right size hook to ensure a "good grab" on the wire) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 18 12:47:57 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:47:57 +0000 Subject: first Classics (WAS Apollo DN systems) In-Reply-To: <7359342594f345108e1880642ebe6286@valleyimplants.com> References: <7359342594f345108e1880642ebe6286@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <44E5FD4D.7040207@yahoo.co.uk> Scott Quinn wrote: > > The DN discussion left me thinking about how classic computer collecting was presented to the outside world. > One of the things that stood out rapidly was that I would not recommend an Apollo as a first foray into the classic > world (I know that in this circumstance it isn't a first foray, just thinking in general). > So, I started thinking about what would be a good starter system. So far, I've come up with > ... Depends on the collector to be honest and what they like in a system. I'd have quite liked an SGI of some flavour for the graphics ability (and indeed got my Tek XD88 fairly early on which was comparable in graphics performance to a typical SGI of the time). But equally I'd be at home with a CP/M crate of some description for the fun of mixing and matching bits and pieces to build a more interesting system. That's something that until recent times has been harder in the world of SGI and Sun because the parts still went for Real Money. Then of course there's the interesting expandable 8-bitters; I got into old Acorn systems for that reason, but I suppose for the USians it's equivalent to collecting Apple ][ systems and related hardware. I suppose the upshot of all that is that I suspect most collectors want a machine that they can expand, even if they're not necessarily a hardware hacker. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 18 12:59:17 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:59:17 +0000 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> Message-ID: <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> Doug Jackson wrote: > > "I see where you're coming from - but I also know that writing a TIFF > > decoder is pretty straightforward; I wouldn't fancy doing the same > for > either JPEG or PDF (not sure about PNG, but I get the impression > that > it's pretty simple in nature)." > > > Noooooo!!!!! > > Don't do it. The problem with writing your own decoder is that you may > not have your own set of reference images, so testing it would be > 'interesting'. This is the major cause of security issues in software > at the moment. All it takes is one case where you mis-handle input, and > you have introduced a vulnerability into your application. > Unfortunately, you can't work on the basis that image data is not > hostile any more. > > That's what application libraries are for. Yes, they are larger that > rolling your own, but they are also more robust. Yes, that's all well and good when such libraries are available - but my point was that it's not too difficult to write a TIFF decoder for a system that had no TIFF support if it were needed. JPEG support I expect is considerably harder to implement. As an aside: I've never quite understood these OS image vunerabilities. Doesn't any modern OS provide sufficient protection such that a process can't just stomp all over memory at random? Unless the problem is just a Windows thing... cheers J. -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 18 12:02:42 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:02:42 -0700 Subject: History Resource Center (was: RE: MULTICS manuals) In-Reply-To: <001b01c6c2de$32df2190$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <001b01c6c2de$32df2190$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: At 10:51 AM -0500 8/18/06, Julian Wolfe wrote: > > >> The library does not care if documentation is old and out of date > >Neither does anyone on this list either, but I digress *chuckle* :) My point was we're actively trying to build a Computer History section for the Library. We will not be throwing documentation out because it is old and out of date, which is something that this list seemed to be rather concerned with, when I mentioned I was donating most of my documentation. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Fri Aug 18 12:17:38 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:17:38 -0700 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Doug Jackson wrote: >> Unfortunately, you can't work on the basis that image data is not >> hostile any more. >> >> That's what application libraries are for. Yes, they are larger that >> rolling your own, but they are also more robust. > > Yes, that's all well and good when such libraries are available - but my > point was that it's not too difficult to write a TIFF decoder for a > system that had no TIFF support if it were needed. JPEG support I expect > is considerably harder to implement. Yup. TIFF is a no-briner to decode. JPEGs, OTOH, employ a DCT to map the image data to a set of "gains" (of a sort). Much more *math* involved -- and *theory*. TIFF is just bit banging... > As an aside: I've never quite understood these OS image vunerabilities. > Doesn't any modern OS provide sufficient protection such that a process > can't just stomp all over memory at random? Unless the problem is just a > Windows thing... Well, the problem would be present to some degree in "protected" environments as well. E.g., view a picture as root and there's nothing from preventing the errant code from invoking *any* library function, etc. But, I understand your point. Why can't you put the stack in a separate "segment" (intel-speak) and give that segment *only* read/write attributes (i.e. no execute). This stops hackers from executing code on the stack. Same could apply to purely *data* "segments". But, it doesn't prevent someone diddling (that's a technical term; it means "screwing with" :> ) the contents of the stack and thereby effecting a return to some portion of the *text* space that does their bidding for them. Perhaps returning to the middle of a multibyte/word instruction sequence that *coincidentally* does something they want? Of course, they have access to *your* binaries (if you are running an O-t-S OS) so they can hunt around for whatever byte sequence they happen to want. Still, seems like a longshot. I'd imagine most exploits could be prevented just by removing the execute ability from segments that are known NOT to contain code. [I'm intensely interested in this as to how it can be done to make applications in consumer devices "hacker hardened"] From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Aug 18 12:22:20 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:22:20 -0600 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E5F74C.5000006@e-bbes.com> Don wrote: > [I'm intensely interested in this as to how it can be done > to make applications in consumer devices "hacker hardened"] Run VMS ;-) From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Aug 18 12:49:25 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:49:25 -0700 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) Message-ID: Don wrote: TIP: An embroidery hook works wonders for fishing wirewrap wires out of a nest without too much damage! ;-) (but you have to find the right size hook to ensure a "good grab" on the wire) For those of us who go back to the dawn, there was the spring hook, a beautifully functional tool used on the relay machines. They worked great on the thick wire mats. I still have all of mine and even today find the spring hook to be one of the most useful tools around the shop. Another tool I found useful was a jewelers device to hold rings for soldering. It looks like a pair of tweezers with the ends bent out so they can't touch. You squeeze it, stick it in the wire mat, and release. The tension holds the wires apart. We made a bunch of copies using piano wire and put shrink tubing over the ends. If you get a chance, look at the 6600 or 7600 in the Museum. Seymour loved those dense wire mats - he used wire lengths to tune his systems. If you worked on one of his machines, you spent a significant part of your working hours buried in wire up to your forearms. The worst was the Cyber 170 machines. They were twisted pair 30 gauge wire mats. If you weren't careful, the pins bent and touched. And there was what we called "tingles". The broken piece off the end of a wire would disappear into the wire mat and eventually short two pins out. Even more fun, if you were tuning clocks, the power was on, so you could watch the path of the tingle by the little sparks. Always happened on a Friday night, of course. One of the worst nightmares I worked on was a machine that the engineers working on, had set their coffee cups on top of the cabinet and forgot about them. This was before the styrofoam cups, just waxed paper. It soaked through and dumped the coffee down into the wire mat. We tried for a few days to fix it but finally had to scrap the entire chassis. Per the Peter Principle, the chief suspect was later promoted to be my manager. Billy From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 18 12:58:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:58:45 -0700 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200608181058450860.05A2A8C8@10.0.0.252> On 8/18/2006 at 5:59 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >As an aside: I've never quite understood these OS image vunerabilities. >Doesn't any modern OS provide sufficient protection such that a process >can't just stomp all over memory at random? Unless the problem is just a Windows >thing... Sloppy programming (really, there's no excuse for not including bounds-checking when decoding)is a big part of the picture. In Windows' case, a lot of the vulnerabilities seem to be a combination of sloppy coding and including "features" that have vulnerabilities inherent. (e.g. OLE in browser applets, executables in email attachments...) Of course, if a set of object libraries with inherent vulnerabilities in them is used, bugs get re-used too. Cheers, Chuck (Looking at something like 13 "security" patches to Win2K this month) From ray at arachelian.com Fri Aug 18 13:03:07 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:03:07 -0400 Subject: batteries Was: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <0J4500BBX7NTAYM5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J4500BBX7NTAYM5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <44E600DB.1040103@arachelian.com> I did the same with my 20th Anniversary Mac, but only because the replacement Lithium battery was too expensive to get. I replaced it with two Lithium AA batteries in a AA holder + wires. :-) Allison wrote: > All my PCs that have CMOS batteries accessable have a external > (.6x2x1.5 inches) plastic box with a suitable battery placed > in it and wires to the internal battery location. I had a > bad experience early on with NiCd leakage on a board so off > the board they go. External makes for accessability without > opening the cases. It also allows me to use a battery that > is larger or better that would not fit where the orginal was. > I apply this to a my otehr systems as well, S100 toy clock > battery, MicrovaxII TOY clock battery and similar. > From dholland at woh.rr.com Fri Aug 18 13:11:56 2006 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:11:56 -0400 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1155924716.32694.8.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Fri, 2006-08-18 at 17:59 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > As an aside: I've never quite understood these OS image vunerabilities. > Doesn't any modern OS provide sufficient protection such that a process can't > just stomp all over memory at random? Unless the problem is just a Windows > thing... No, its more than just a windows thing. Most of the vulnerabilities I've read about (and understood) have been of the "trash the stack" sort. You hand off a specially crafted input source (be it an image, a http post, or even command line argument. ) That triggers some boundary condition in the routine which replaces the proper return address on the machine stack w/ your own specified address. (Which is usually the address of some machine code you embedded in your input source.) Upon return from the routine, the process goes to your code, which does whatever... I've seen them work..The really interesting ones are somewhat difficult to come up with, but far from impossible. David > > cheers > > J. > From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Aug 18 13:22:47 2006 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:22:47 -0400 Subject: MULTICS manuals In-Reply-To: <200608170017.k7H0HAnT006222@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608170017.k7H0HAnT006222@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0608181122g44f0ade8w3ecb47d0cc815be3@mail.gmail.com> On 8/16/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > The library does not care if documentation is old and out of date, it is > dedicated to preserving history, and the manuals would not be thrown out > or > disposed of. Sounds like my local public library. They still have books on Lotus 1-2-3 for DOS, getting the most out of your Mac Plus, 101 things to do with your Commodore 128... :) From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Fri Aug 18 13:39:29 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:39:29 -0700 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608181058450860.05A2A8C8@10.0.0.252> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <200608181058450860.05A2A8C8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44E60961.2070200@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/18/2006 at 5:59 PM Jules Richardson wrote: > >> As an aside: I've never quite understood these OS image vunerabilities. >> Doesn't any modern OS provide sufficient protection such that a process >> can't just stomp all over memory at random? Unless the problem is just a > Windows >> thing... > > Sloppy programming (really, there's no excuse for not including > bounds-checking when decoding)is a big part of the picture. In Windows' > case, a lot of the vulnerabilities seem to be a combination of sloppy > coding and including "features" that have vulnerabilities inherent. (e.g. > OLE in browser applets, executables in email attachments...) Of course, if > a set of object libraries with inherent vulnerabilities in them is used, > bugs get re-used too. *MY* concern is how do you let FOREIGN code into your world AND still protect things? I.e. I can do my best to keep *my* code bug-free... but, I can't keep "your" code bug-free! Yet, I need to keep my *system* invulnerable to bugs that you let creep in. :-( (writing good OS's requires considerably more forethought than writing good *apps*! :< ) From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Fri Aug 18 13:42:03 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:42:03 -0700 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <1155924716.32694.8.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <1155924716.32694.8.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <44E609FB.3070406@dakotacom.net> David Holland wrote: > > On Fri, 2006-08-18 at 17:59 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > >> As an aside: I've never quite understood these OS image vunerabilities. >> Doesn't any modern OS provide sufficient protection such that a process can't >> just stomp all over memory at random? Unless the problem is just a Windows >> thing... > > > No, its more than just a windows thing. > > Most of the vulnerabilities I've read about (and understood) have been > of the "trash the stack" sort. > > You hand off a specially crafted input source (be it an image, a http > post, or even command line argument. ) > > That triggers some boundary condition in the routine which replaces the > proper return address on the machine stack w/ your own specified > address. (Which is usually the address of some machine code you > embedded in your input source.) > > Upon return from the routine, the process goes to your code, which does > whatever... Yes, but if your OS marked data segments as "no execute", this problem would go away, right? You would then be forcing the hacker to twiddle the stack in the hopes of getting some *unintended* portion of *your* code to execute -- but that code would have to reside in a loaded TEXT segment (else it would be "no-execute") Or, is there some *other* way around this that I haven't anticipated? :-( > I've seen them work..The really interesting ones are somewhat difficult > to come up with, but far from impossible. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Fri Aug 18 13:53:47 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:53:47 -0700 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E60CBB.7020309@dakotacom.net> Billy Pettit wrote: > Don wrote: > >> TIP: An embroidery hook works wonders for fishing wirewrap wires >> out of a nest without too much damage! ;-) (but you have to >> find the right size hook to ensure a "good grab" on the wire) > > For those of us who go back to the dawn, there was the spring hook, a > beautifully functional tool used on the relay machines. They worked great > on the thick wire mats. I still have all of mine and even today find the > spring hook to be one of the most useful tools around the shop. Yup. I have a nice assortment of similar telco tools (including armature adusters, etc.). Unfortunately, MaBell used heavy gauge wire on most of those things --whereas most of the wirewrapped devices I have worked with used 30AWG kynar or teflon wire. I also have a really neat pair of needle nose that have the jaws machined to act like no-niks. You learn early on that these are *only* to be used for stripping wire or holding wire and NEVER to carry any "load"! :-/ (I wish I could find a commercial source for these) > Another tool I found useful was a jewelers device to hold rings for > soldering. It looks like a pair of tweezers with the ends bent out so they > can't touch. You squeeze it, stick it in the wire mat, and release. The > tension holds the wires apart. We made a bunch of copies using piano wire > and put shrink tubing over the ends. You can use the pliers that are used for *outer* clip rings to do this -- with a rubber band around the handles. (i.e. the jaws OPEN as the handles are drawn together). > If you get a chance, look at the 6600 or 7600 in the Museum. Seymour loved > those dense wire mats - he used wire lengths to tune his systems. If you > worked on one of his machines, you spent a significant part of your working > hours buried in wire up to your forearms. The same was true in the "tester" -- you had to resolve time to 1ns resolution so lots of wirelength issues, loading devices to get the right transition times, etc. For a one-of-a-kind machine (I think we *might* have built two!), it wasn't too bad. But, I would dread having to do this in a production environment! > The worst was the Cyber 170 machines. They were twisted pair 30 gauge wire > mats. If you weren't careful, the pins bent and touched. And there was > what we called "tingles". The broken piece off the end of a wire would > disappear into the wire mat and eventually short two pins out. Even more > fun, if you were tuning clocks, the power was on, so you could watch the > path of the tingle by the little sparks. Always happened on a Friday night, > of course. If you only *partially* unwrap the wire (i.e. take the "tension" out of the coil) and then deliberately *break* the wire where it connects to the insulated portion (this is where the wire typically *wants* to break) you can fish out the insulated tail and then carefully lift the expanded wire coil off of the WW pin (using the fancy needlenose pliers mentioned above). OTOH, if you *pulled* on the insulated portion before breaking the wire *or* tried to pull the "coil" (tingle?) off, you were almost guarantees to end up with tiny bits of bare wire suspended in the ratsnest! :( > One of the worst nightmares I worked on was a machine that the engineers > working on, had set their coffee cups on top of the cabinet and forgot about > them. This was before the styrofoam cups, just waxed paper. It soaked > through and dumped the coffee down into the wire mat. We tried for a few > days to fix it but finally had to scrap the entire chassis. Per the Peter > Principle, the chief suspect was later promoted to be my manager. Ha! And later ran the company, no doubt! :-( From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Fri Aug 18 13:54:32 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 11:54:32 -0700 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E5F74C.5000006@e-bbes.com> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> <44E5F74C.5000006@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <44E60CE8.9030001@dakotacom.net> e.stiebler wrote: > Don wrote: >> [I'm intensely interested in this as to how it can be done >> to make applications in consumer devices "hacker hardened"] > Run VMS ;-) Bt, is that truly "hacker proof" or "hardened by obscurity"? :> From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 18 14:02:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:02:48 -0700 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608181202480954.05DD4CB8@10.0.0.252> On 8/18/2006 at 10:49 AM Billy Pettit wrote: >If you get a chance, look at the 6600 or 7600 in the Museum. Seymour loved >those dense wire mats - he used wire lengths to tune his systems. If you >worked on one of his machines, you spent a significant part of your working >hours buried in wire up to your forearms. It was very convenient to carry a penlight that you could hold in your mouth while digging through the maze with both hands. It was pretty surprising how much digging the taper-pin backplanes could take without breaking a wire. Unlike wire-wrap backplanes, wire lengths in these backplanes sometimes mattered a lot. A friend of mine said his first job with CDC was taking one of Seymour's machines and measuring the loops of wire to which were attached a tag with the word "TUNE" written on it. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 18 14:10:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:10:36 -0700 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E60961.2070200@dakotacom.net> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <200608181058450860.05A2A8C8@10.0.0.252> <44E60961.2070200@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608181210360461.05E46EE6@10.0.0.252> On 8/18/2006 at 11:39 AM Don wrote: >*MY* concern is how do you let FOREIGN code into your world >AND still protect things? I.e. I can do my best to keep >*my* code bug-free... but, I can't keep "your" code bug-free! >Yet, I need to keep my *system* invulnerable to bugs that you >let creep in. :-( (writing good OS's requires considerably more >forethought than writing good *apps*! :< ) Absolutely. I suppose that some of Windows' bugginess comes from having to use third-party drivers and services for things not "standard legacy". Something that Apple really doesn't have to worry about too much. But allowing malicious code to creep in through one's own email and browser is not a sign of good design. Certificates have pretty much proven to be worthless in that respect. "Undocumented" features don't help either. --Chuck From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Aug 18 15:08:56 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:08:56 Subject: D subminiture connectors Re: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060817170008.0b0c4f40@localhost> References: <200608171703.NAA10423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060818150856.0eefc80a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:02 PM 8/17/06 -0500, you wrote: >Many catalogs referred to D-shell connectors as "socket" or "pin" (DB-25S, >DB-25P) P here stands for plug not pin. Socket and plug refer to the shell. Male and Female refer to the contacts. You can have female contacts in a plug or socket and you can have male contacts in a plug or socket. A good example of all FOUR combinations are the DB 25 connectors (and their mating connectors) used for the parallel and serial ports on the >>ORIGINAL<< IBM PC and PC XT. BTW the B in DB refers to the size shell. The 25 pin connectors used on the original IBM are B size. Other sizes use a different letter ie DE, etc. But a lot of people call every size "DB" Joe for a long time because the terms "male" and "female" were >potentially confusing. Is the shell male/female? Are the connections >themselves one or the other? What about those Sun connectors that have some >of both in the same shell? > >At 01:02 PM 8/17/2006 -0400, you wrote: >> > DB25S Connector >> >>What's a DB25*S*? >> >>/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >>\ / Ribbon Campaign >> X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca >>/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > >"Some of my best leading men have been dogs and horses." -- Elizabeth >Taylor >--... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... >tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) >"HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters >43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc >WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 > > > > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Aug 18 14:15:40 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASR-33 In-Reply-To: <44E4AA1A.2090208@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <20060818191540.51203.qmail@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Don wrote: > In either case, I need to pack it so it will survive > the > UPS gorillas. > > I figured pull the mechanism off the base (is the > base REALLY > worth saving??) Definitely. It is rather awkward to use the paper tape reader without the base. I had an ASR33 shipped to me as follows: The machine was removed from its base and bolted down to a piece of half-inch particleboard (plywoood would be even better) with bolts and washers, with the bolts going through holes in the baseplate and into the typing unit casting. This was the way that the machines were originally shipped from the factory. The wooden baseplate was padded below with urethane foam. The machine was surrounded by a heavy cardboard "collar" that filled the space between the baseplate and the top of the crate so that if it were turned upside down, the machine would hang from the bolts rather than rest on the easily-cracked plastic cover. The machine was wrapped in plastic, and bags filled with styrofoam popcorn filled the dead space inside the box. He used a wooden crate, which was ideal, but a well-reinforced doublewall carton would probably work as well. The base was shipped separately in a cardboard carton. Shipped in this fashion, I had no problems with the machine when it arrived. --Bill From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Fri Aug 18 14:21:55 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:21:55 -0700 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608181210360461.05E46EE6@10.0.0.252> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <200608181058450860.05A2A8C8@10.0.0.252> <44E60961.2070200@dakotacom.net> <200608181210360461.05E46EE6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44E61353.6070200@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/18/2006 at 11:39 AM Don wrote: > >> *MY* concern is how do you let FOREIGN code into your world >> AND still protect things? I.e. I can do my best to keep >> *my* code bug-free... but, I can't keep "your" code bug-free! >> Yet, I need to keep my *system* invulnerable to bugs that you >> let creep in. :-( (writing good OS's requires considerably more >> forethought than writing good *apps*! :< ) > > Absolutely. I suppose that some of Windows' bugginess comes from having to > use third-party drivers and services for things not "standard legacy". That's the problem with monolithic kernels, etc. I.e. there is no way to incorporate the drivers and still keep them "out" of the kernel's protection domain. > Something that Apple really doesn't have to worry about too much. But > allowing malicious code to creep in through one's own email and browser is > not a sign of good design. Certificates have pretty much proven to be > worthless in that respect. But the OS should allow buggy code and *still* protect the rest of the system from intrusions of this sort. I suspect the problem with windows is the user is "effectively" root (even if not running as "Administrator", if all of *your* executables have been "contaminated", *your* computing experience is tainted by them! > "Undocumented" features don't help either. > > --Chuck > > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 18 14:30:32 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:30:32 -0600 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608181210360461.05E46EE6@10.0.0.252> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <200608181058450860.05A2A8C8@10.0.0.252> <44E60961.2070200@dakotacom.net> <200608181210360461.05E46EE6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44E61558.7010406@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Absolutely. I suppose that some of Windows' bugginess comes from having to > use third-party drivers and services for things not "standard legacy". > Something that Apple really doesn't have to worry about too much. But > allowing malicious code to creep in through one's own email and browser is > not a sign of good design. Certificates have pretty much proven to be > worthless in that respect. > > "Undocumented" features don't help either. Same with LINUX ... Dynamic Link Libraries are the *root* of the problem with the NEW OS's. From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 18 14:35:09 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:35:09 -0400 Subject: D subminiture connectors Re: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060818150856.0eefc80a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200608171703.NAA10423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> <3.0.6.16.20060818150856.0eefc80a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200608181535.09623.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 18 August 2006 11:08 am, Joe R. wrote: > BTW the B in DB refers to the size shell. The 25 pin connectors used on > the original IBM are B size. Other sizes use a different letter ie DE, etc. > But a lot of people call every size "DB" So what letters are used for other sizes? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From sellam at vintagetech.com Fri Aug 18 14:32:10 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need NEC ProSpeed 386 and docking station ($$$) Message-ID: I have a new bounty. A client is seeking an NEC ProSpeed 386 with docking station. If you've got one then it's definitely worth money. Contact me privately if you have one for more information. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Aug 18 14:44:55 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:44:55 -0600 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E60CE8.9030001@dakotacom.net> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> <44E5F74C.5000006@e-bbes.com> <44E60CE8.9030001@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E618B7.7060604@e-bbes.com> Don wrote: > e.stiebler wrote: >> Don wrote: >>> [I'm intensely interested in this as to how it can be done >>> to make applications in consumer devices "hacker hardened"] >> Run VMS ;-) > > Bt, is that truly "hacker proof" or "hardened by obscurity"? :> hacker proof. Just google for "vms defcon 9" From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Aug 18 14:51:32 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 19:51:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Don wrote: > But, I understand your point. Why can't you put the stack in > a separate "segment" (intel-speak) and give that segment *only* > read/write attributes (i.e. no execute). This stops hackers > from executing code on the stack. Same could apply to purely > *data* "segments". This is commonly done, and called W^X (write xor execute). See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%5EX > But, it doesn't prevent someone diddling (that's a technical > term; it means "screwing with" :> ) the contents of the stack > and thereby effecting a return to some portion of the *text* > space that does their bidding for them. Perhaps returning > to the middle of a multibyte/word instruction sequence that > *coincidentally* does something they want? > > Of course, they have access to *your* binaries (if you > are running an O-t-S OS) so they can hunt around for whatever > byte sequence they happen to want. > > Still, seems like a longshot. I'd imagine most exploits could > be prevented just by removing the execute ability from segments > that are known NOT to contain code. Many can be, which is why OpenBSD among others implements it. This is how they were able to make the "no remote root vulnerabilities in X years" claim. However, securlty experts have been able to exploit many stack bugs despite this protection, usually with "return to libc" attacks. There are many papers out there on how to exploit a W^X protected process, and many others on additional protections that defeat these attacks. Mostly these protections rely on randomizing the address space of a running process or changing the calling convention so stack integrity is verified somehow before each return. > [I'm intensely interested in this as to how it can be done > to make applications in consumer devices "hacker hardened"] There is a ton of work in this area, W^X is just the simplest and most efficient (and maybe oldest) method. Some people have gone so far as to statistically profile the pattern of system calls an application makes, and to kill it if the pattern suddenly changes (this is the least practical approach I've heard of :-). Alexey From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Aug 18 14:55:38 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 19:55:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E618B7.7060604@e-bbes.com> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> <44E5F74C.5000006@e-bbes.com> <44E60CE8.9030001@dakotacom.net> <44E618B7.7060604@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, e.stiebler wrote: >>>> [I'm intensely interested in this as to how it can be done >>>> to make applications in consumer devices "hacker hardened"] >>> Run VMS ;-) >> >> Bt, is that truly "hacker proof" or "hardened by obscurity"? :> > > hacker proof. Just google for "vms defcon 9" The fact that no-one at defcon 9 knows VMS well enough to break into a VMS box says nothing of the security of VMS; it only says something about it's popularity. Alexey From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Aug 18 15:07:05 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: first Classics (WAS Apollo DN systems) In-Reply-To: <7359342594f345108e1880642ebe6286@valleyimplants.com> References: <7359342594f345108e1880642ebe6286@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Scott Quinn wrote: > The DN discussion left me thinking about how classic computer > collecting was presented to the outside world. FWIW, when people find out about my hobby and ask me why, they're almost always satisfied when I describe the hobby as being like classic cars. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jplist at kiwigeek.com Fri Aug 18 15:15:27 2006 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:15:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: first Classics (WAS Apollo DN systems) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Scott Quinn wrote: > > > The DN discussion left me thinking about how classic computer > > collecting was presented to the outside world. > > FWIW, when people find out about my hobby and ask me why, they're almost > always satisfied when I describe the hobby as being like classic cars. Wow, I thought I was the only guy that came up with that line. When people ask me I explain that while computers are currently still utilitarian, so was the Model T Ford back in the '20s. Nevertheless today they have significant value, so while the computers we collect may only be 20 years old now (give or take ;) - should any of us manage to live another 80 years... we might have some real winners on our hands. Works for my inlaws, at least. - JP From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Aug 18 15:19:24 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 16:19:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: D subminiture connectors Re: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <200608181535.09623.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608171703.NAA10423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> <3.0.6.16.20060818150856.0eefc80a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200608181535.09623.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608182026.QAA03104@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> BTW the B in DB refers to the size shell. The 25 pin connectors >> used on the original IBM are B size. Other sizes use a different >> letter ie DE, etc. But a lot of people call every size "DB" Until relatively recently I was one of them. :-( > So what letters are used for other sizes? DA is the 15-pin size, the one used by AUI Ethernet back in the heyday of 10base5. DB is the 25-pin size, the one that's standard for serial ports (de-jure standard, not the 9-pin de-facto standard). Also used for peecee parallel ports and older Macintosh SCSI, and doubtless a bunch of other things too. DC is a size I almost never see, and I don't remember the exact pin count. 37? 39? Something like that. DD is a much larger size, supporting 50 pins. Some of the older Sun equipment uses this for SCSI, which is the only use I know it from. DE is the small size, used with 9 pins for the serial connectors I mentioned above and with 15 pins for peecee video ("VGA"). I don't know why the order makes so much sense for DA through DD and then goes wonky for DE. I conjecture that when it was originally planned, nobody expected it to be used for anything that small, so the DE was tacked on as an afterthought. (I suppose they could have used D@, but that would make sense only to geeks who know their ASCII. :) I also don't know whether there are any other sizes with names. Other sizes, though rare, do exist; for example, NeXT used a D-shell connector of an odd size, with something like 19 pins, to drive their greyscale video displays. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From josefcub at gmail.com Fri Aug 18 15:33:52 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:33:52 -0500 Subject: D subminiture connectors Re: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <200608182026.QAA03104@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200608171703.NAA10423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> <3.0.6.16.20060818150856.0eefc80a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200608181535.09623.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608182026.QAA03104@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <9e2403920608181333r32783079td6b938a92b0010e3@mail.gmail.com> Don't forget the On 8/18/06, der Mouse wrote: Thank you for the education. I always thought DB was just the designation of the shell style. >_> > > I also don't know whether there are any other sizes with names. Other > sizes, though rare, do exist; for example, NeXT used a D-shell > connector of an odd size, with something like 19 pins, to drive their > greyscale video displays. Or the 19 pin D sub connector for later Apple II (and Macintosh) disk drives, Amiga drives, etc. Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 18 15:58:55 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: D subminiture connectors Re: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <200608182026.QAA03104@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200608171703.NAA10423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> <3.0.6.16.20060818150856.0eefc80a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200608181535.09623.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608182026.QAA03104@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20060818135732.L75233@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, der Mouse wrote: > DC is a size I almost never see, and I don't remember the exact pin > count. 37? 39? Something like that. 37 used for the external floppy drive connectors for PC's From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 18 16:15:44 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:15:44 -0400 Subject: D subminiture connectors Re: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <200608181535.09623.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608171703.NAA10423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> <3.0.6.16.20060818150856.0eefc80a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200608181535.09623.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > So what letters are used for other sizes? Yay! It's the annual D shell thread! Everyone pull out your copy of MIL-C-24308. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 18 16:10:11 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 22:10:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: TRS-80 Model II In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Aug 18, 6 11:09:14 am Message-ID: > > Hi, Please note that I have never seen inside an M2, so this is mostly speculation. Feel free to ignore all my ramblings... > > A friend of mine needs to repair the power supply of a TRS-80 Model II. > I've found a schematic but without part numbers and values! He needs to I assume this is a schematic in the technical reference or service manual... Be careful, In the case of the M3 (a machine which I _have_ worked on), the PSU was bought-in from ASTEC. ASTEC did not supply (or allow to be publisehd?) their schematics, so it appears somebody at Radio Shack reverse-enegineered the board to provide a schematic for the manual. And they didn't do a very good job of it. Suffice it to say the transformer shown on the diagram bears little relationship to reality. And I seem to rememebr some components are mising from the control circuit. Te M2 PSU schematic may be fine, of course, but do check it carefully. > know the type of transistor Q1, there are no markings on the case of the > transistor. I've checked the power supply of my Model II, and there are no > markings, too. The Technical Reference Manual has all schematics for the > Model II, but the schematic for the power supply is useless without > component values. Might a BU208 for Q1 do the job? Hmmm... Chopper transistors are always hard to substitute because they work under such unusual conditions. It may well be that the reason the original chopper isn't marked is that it's not really a standard part, but was selected to meet some criteria that you haven't a hope of discovering. That said, I've found the 2SD1942 to be a good 'universal' chopper in most small single-stage SMPSUs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 18 16:17:09 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 22:17:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: first Classics (WAS Apollo DN systems) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060818084924.03c6df00@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Aug 18, 6 09:07:22 am Message-ID: > Depends. If you are coming from a Unix/Linux world, *or* started out with > the GWBASIC crowd, a Tandy (CoCo|Model3/4|etc.) might be easier to get > accustomed to as there will be less of a learning curve with the Basic (or > in the *nix case, OS-9 on a CoCo). Parts are still cheap, plentiful, and > some are even swappable with the IBM scene; not to mention utilities to > write to cross-platform floppies & whatnot; which is a bit tougher in the > GCR world. > > However, I agree that if it is your first foray into the world of classics, > a small cheap 8-bitter is definitely the way to go. If you're interested in going that route, the 2 machines I'd recomend would be the CoCo series for much the reason you gave (OS-9 is an interesting operating system) and the BBC micor (excellent BASIC and assembler built-in, lots of standard interfaces built-in, plenty of software and docs on the web). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 18 15:54:14 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 21:54:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <1ffe8679570094630b182764da95b836@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 17, 6 08:39:00 pm Message-ID: > From 1986 to early 1988 I worked on the Navier-Stokes Supercomputer > Project at Princeton University. Each node of that machine had four > 4MW memory planes (36-bit word) built from 41256 chips; 576 chips per > memory plane, handled by a pair of Intel 8207 DRAM controllers. We had > really nasty problems with the refresh cycles creating tons of noise on > the Vcc bus. Man that was a nightmare; it took weeks to get it cleaned > up. If I recall correctly we wound up rebuilding the boards with a > bypass capacitor for every DRAM chip. Which you darn well should have fitted in the first place!. As I've said many times 'Decoupling capacitors are cheap, my time in finding glitches is not'. OK if you're going into production it _might_ be worth saving a few pence by eliminating unnecessary capacitors. But for a prototype, fit at least one per chip. Period. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 18 16:22:17 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 22:22:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: D subminiture connectors Re: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060818150856.0eefc80a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Aug 18, 6 03:08:56 pm Message-ID: > P here stands for plug not pin. Socket and plug refer to the shell. Ma= > le > and Female refer to the contacts. You can have female contacts in a plug = > or > socket and you can have male contacts in a plug or socket. A good example > of all FOUR combinations are the DB 25 connectors (and their mating > connectors) used for the parallel and serial ports on the >>ORIGINAL<< IB= > M > PC and PC XT. I beg to disagree. In both of those cases you have a -P shell with male (pin) contacts (fixed to the RS232 card, free on the end of the parallel cable) and a -S shell fitted with female (socket) contacts (free on the end of the RS232 cable, fixed to the parallel card). In the case of D-series connectors, I don't think it's possible to fit female contacts to a -P shell or male contacts to a -S shell. It is possible to do that with some other types of connectors, of course. In the UK, the term 'plug' refers to the connector with male contacts and 'sosket' to the connector with female contacts no matter whether they're on the end of the cable ('free') or on a panel ('fixed'). Problems start when youy have a connector with a mixture of contact types... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 18 16:02:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 22:02:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: first Classics (WAS Apollo DN systems) In-Reply-To: <7359342594f345108e1880642ebe6286@valleyimplants.com> from "Scott Quinn" at Aug 17, 6 08:14:28 pm Message-ID: > > > > The DN discussion left me thinking about how classic computer > collecting was presented to the outside world. > One of the things that stood out rapidly was that I would not > recommend an Apollo as a first foray into the classic > world (I know that in this circumstance it isn't a first foray, just > thinking in general). > So, I started thinking about what would be a good starter system. So > far, I've come up with My first thought its that the 'ideal first classic' depends very much on what you're interested in. OK, I am the exception, being primarily a hardware person, so my interest is in CPUs built from simple-ish logic chips (the 74x181 being about the most complicated device I like to see in a CPU :-)). My second thought is that the 'ideal first classic' is the one you're offered. Most of us don't have the luxury of being able to pick any classic computer, we restore the machine we can get our grubby little hands on :-) This can lead to some interesting 'problems'. The first minicomputer I got -- in fact the first machine I had without a single-chip CPU was a Philips P850. A machine that few people have ever heard of, let alone know anything about. I was very much on my own with the machine and the technical manual.... And the first PDP11 I got was not one I'd necessarily recomend for a beginner. It was a PDP11/45. A great machine, but very complicated (over 1000 chips in the CPU IIRC). Anf this time I didn't even have a complete machine. I had to wire-wrap an MUD backplane before I even knew what MUD was. I think that machine I'd go for as a 'first classic' would be one of the following : PDP11/10 -- a simple PDP11, CPU built from TTL, but not that much of it, with a real front panel PERQ (any classic PERQ) -- again a CPU built from TTL, but this time a workstation. Plenty of doucmetnation out there, so you should get it working HP9830 -- Very much the forerunner of the home micro, this machine has BASIC in ROM, so it's not going to be hard to get used to. But the CPU is a bit-serial one built from 80 simple chips, there are schematics, etc out there. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 18 16:29:39 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 22:29:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: first Classics (WAS Apollo DN systems) In-Reply-To: <44E5FD4D.7040207@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 18, 6 05:47:57 pm Message-ID: > I suppose the upshot of all that is that I suspect most collectors want a > machine that they can expand, even if they're not necessarily a > hardware hacker. > Some years ago I was involved with the Bristol University student computer society (it was called 'BITS' [1] which was supposed to stand for 'Bristol IT Society' but never did :-)). Anyway, said society had a number of SIGs. And one such SIG was called 'Hardware and old systems SIG'. Those were grouped together not just because the chap running said SIG was yours truely and was interested in both aspects, but also because in the opinion of most people in said society if you want to run an old computer system (as opposed to running the software under emulation or whatever) you pretty much have to be somewhat interested in the hardware because you're going to have to do repairs and you can't generally find modules to swap out (even if that was the right thing to do ;-)). And if you're interested in messing about with hardware you'll often find an older machine to be better documented and easier to work on (slower bus speed, so you can use a cheaper 'scope and analyser). I guess what I am saying is that even if you're not a hardware hacker _now_, getting seriously into old computers will turn you partially into one. [1] Another proposed name was FOCC, officially standing for 'Friends Of the C Compiler'. Of course the double meaning was 'F*** Off Computer Centre' :-). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 18 16:04:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 22:04:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Aug 17, 6 09:59:00 pm Message-ID: > > > I find "socket" and "pin" more confusing, because, honestly, my initial > > reaction is that they refer to the same sex. > > Sooooo...when is the last time you went on a date? What's a 'date'? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 18 16:34:02 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 22:34:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: MULTICS manuals In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0608181122g44f0ade8w3ecb47d0cc815be3@mail.gmail.com> from "Jason McBrien" at Aug 18, 6 02:22:47 pm Message-ID: > Sounds like my local public library. They still have books on Lotus 1-2-3 > for DOS, getting the most out of your Mac Plus, 101 things to do with your > Commodore 128... All the public libraries round here seem to have are books like 'Windows XP for people with a mental age of 2' . Still, I shouldn't moan, I've bought most of the real computing and electronic books at library sales (and got some right bargains...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 18 16:40:35 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 22:40:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: D subminiture connectors Re: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <200608181535.09623.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Aug 18, 6 03:35:09 pm Message-ID: > > On Friday 18 August 2006 11:08 am, Joe R. wrote: > > BTW the B in DB refers to the size shell. The 25 pin connectors used on > > the original IBM are B size. Other sizes use a different letter ie DE, etc. > > But a lot of people call every size "DB" > > So what letters are used for other sizes? Intially, there were 4 shell sizes . I'll give the number of pins and the common usage so you have some idea what I am talking about : Normal High Density DA : 15 pin (PC Joystick, Ethernet AUI). 26 pin DB : 25 pin (RS232, PC parallel port) 44 pin DC : 37 pin (PC external floppy port) 62 pin (PC expanison chassis) DD : 50 pin (Sun 3 SCSI) The other standard one : DE : 9 pin (PC/AT serial port, MDA etc video) 15 pin (VGA video) There are also 19 and 23 pin D connectors used on the Atari ST and Amiga. I've heard of them being called DF19 and DG23, but I am not sure how official those names are -tony From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Fri Aug 18 16:42:41 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:42:41 -0700 Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060817215228.035e0e90@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> References: <44E3A2F4.8@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060816184022.05885458@mail> <44E3CBA6.7010008@dakotacom.net> <1155798009.12871.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44E49E28.8000507@dakotacom.net> <7.0.1.0.0.20060817215228.035e0e90@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <44E63451.9070604@dakotacom.net> Rob O'Donnell wrote: > At 17:49 17/08/2006, Don wrote: > >> No idea what a Sinclair Flat Screen TV is... :-( > > This used a CRT that was scanned from the /side/ .. Depth wasn't much, > but you needed a comparatively wide box... This was an improvement on > the first Sinclair handheld TV I encountered which was a about the size > and weight of a small housebrick, with a tiny screen on the end. Hmmm... "side" not "bottom" (like the watchman)? Ah, OK. So the beam still scanned left-to right but did so by (effectively) scanning "in to out" (back to front)? From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Fri Aug 18 17:08:57 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:08:57 -0700 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E63A79.6080107@dakotacom.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>> It's probably possible to add external circuitry to turn that back into a >>> normal 18 bit address and hang SRAM off it, but I think it's more work >>> than finding some 41256s... >> I would assume the controller would exploit page mode references >> (especially when dealing with sequential accesses like video). > > I am not sure, and the service manual (which I have) doesn't make any > obvious reference to this. Any timing diagrams for DRAM access? You'd recognize the page mode cycles by the lack of a 1:1 pairing of RAS with CAS. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Fri Aug 18 17:11:28 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:11:28 -0700 Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E63B10.6090502@dakotacom.net> Tony Duell wrote: [a Sinclair Flat Screen TV?] > If you want to use one, try to get the entire TV. You need some scan > correction (Due to the different distance of the 2 edges of the screen > from the gun, the natural raster is wedge-shaped!). The Microvision TV > contains a custom chip (22 pins IIRC) that contains this stuff, the scan > oscillators, the IF strip, and so on. Fortuately, it is possible to feed > composite video into it somwhow (I forget the exact details, I have some > notes _somewhere_. This seems to be (quite?) a bit larger than the watchman. As if they aimed for *flat* (whereas sony aimed for "small"). Given your other comments (and the fact that it is probably going to be harder to find than even a watchman would be!), I'll probably take a pass on it :> From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Fri Aug 18 17:17:07 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 15:17:07 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E63C63.1000803@dakotacom.net> Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Don wrote: > >> But, I understand your point. Why can't you put the stack in >> a separate "segment" (intel-speak) and give that segment *only* >> read/write attributes (i.e. no execute). This stops hackers >> from executing code on the stack. Same could apply to purely >> *data* "segments". > > This is commonly done, and called W^X (write xor execute). See: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%5EX Yes, I've already implemented this. And, done everything that (I *hope*!) protects the *system* from malicious code (even in "add on" modules). But, now I am trying to consider how malicious code can tinker with userland objects. :-( A user doesn't really *care* that your OS was "protected" if he still ends up losing *his* data! :-/ >> But, it doesn't prevent someone diddling (that's a technical >> term; it means "screwing with" :> ) the contents of the stack >> and thereby effecting a return to some portion of the *text* >> space that does their bidding for them. Perhaps returning >> to the middle of a multibyte/word instruction sequence that >> *coincidentally* does something they want? >> >> Of course, they have access to *your* binaries (if you >> are running an O-t-S OS) so they can hunt around for whatever >> byte sequence they happen to want. >> >> Still, seems like a longshot. I'd imagine most exploits could >> be prevented just by removing the execute ability from segments >> that are known NOT to contain code. > > Many can be, which is why OpenBSD among others implements it. This is > how they were able to make the "no remote root vulnerabilities in X > years" claim. However, securlty experts have been able to exploit many > stack bugs despite this protection, usually with "return to libc" But, even so, they can't get into the "kernel's" protection domain through those mechanisms -- unless the kernel wasnt well protected (?) > attacks. There are many papers out there on how to exploit a W^X > protected process, and many others on additional protections that defeat > these attacks. Mostly these protections rely on randomizing the address > space of a running process or changing the calling convention so stack > integrity is verified somehow before each return. But, user applications can be developed using tools that fail to observe your conventions WITHIN their application. I.e. it seems like the only mechanisms that you can put in place are those that are invoked at protection boundaries. (?) >> [I'm intensely interested in this as to how it can be done >> to make applications in consumer devices "hacker hardened"] > > There is a ton of work in this area, W^X is just the simplest and most > efficient (and maybe oldest) method. Some people have gone so far as to > statistically profile the pattern of system calls an application makes, > and to kill it if the pattern suddenly changes (this is the least > practical approach I've heard of :-). Thanks, I will see if I can come up with some suitable search terms... From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Aug 18 17:16:22 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 18:16:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060818221622.EB61558531@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Tony Duell > > > > > > I find "socket" and "pin" more confusing, because, honestly, my initial > > > reaction is that they refer to the same sex. > > > > Sooooo...when is the last time you went on a date? > > What's a 'date'? > You know, like every Saturday night is Commodore chat on IRC or August 1982 was the release date for the C64 or the Amiga 1000 was released on July 1985. Great dates IMHO... ;) Of course, your great dates will probably be different then mine! Cheers, Bryan From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 18 17:18:44 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 18:18:44 -0400 Subject: D subminiture connectors Re: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <200608182026.QAA03104@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200608171703.NAA10423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608181535.09623.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608182026.QAA03104@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200608181818.44955.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 18 August 2006 04:19 pm, der Mouse wrote: > >> BTW the B in DB refers to the size shell. The 25 pin connectors > >> used on the original IBM are B size. Other sizes use a different > >> letter ie DE, etc. But a lot of people call every size "DB" > > Until relatively recently I was one of them. :-( > > > So what letters are used for other sizes? > > DA is the 15-pin size, the one used by AUI Ethernet back in the heyday > of 10base5. > > DB is the 25-pin size, the one that's standard for serial ports > (de-jure standard, not the 9-pin de-facto standard). Also used for > peecee parallel ports and older Macintosh SCSI, and doubtless a bunch > of other things too. > > DC is a size I almost never see, and I don't remember the exact pin > count. 37? 39? Something like that. 37 pins, and it's found on the metal bracket of original PC/XT floppy controller cards. > DD is a much larger size, supporting 50 pins. Some of the older Sun > equipment uses this for SCSI, which is the only use I know it from. I did run across those on the boards I was recently wondering about in here. They're the only ones I know of (excepting "VGA" sockets) that use three rows of pins. > DE is the small size, used with 9 pins for the serial connectors I > mentioned above and with 15 pins for peecee video ("VGA"). > > I don't know why the order makes so much sense for DA through DD and > then goes wonky for DE. I conjecture that when it was originally > planned, nobody expected it to be used for anything that small, so the > DE was tacked on as an afterthought. (I suppose they could have used > D@, but that would make sense only to geeks who know their ASCII. :) Works for me. :-) > I also don't know whether there are any other sizes with names. Other > sizes, though rare, do exist; for example, NeXT used a D-shell > connector of an odd size, with something like 19 pins, to drive their > greyscale video displays. It's also my understanding that the Atari ST (?) used an oddball of that sort, maybe 23 pins? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 18 17:20:10 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 18:20:10 -0400 Subject: D subminiture connectors Re: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: References: <200608171703.NAA10423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608181535.09623.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608181820.10026.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 18 August 2006 05:15 pm, William Donzelli wrote: > > So what letters are used for other sizes? > > Yay! It's the annual D shell thread! Everyone pull out your copy of > MIL-C-24308. Got a link for that? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 18 17:24:23 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 16:24:23 -0600 Subject: MULTICS manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E63E17.50604@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > All the public libraries round here seem to have are books like 'Windows > XP for people with a mental age of 2' . Still, I shouldn't moan, I've > bought most of the real computing and electronic books at library sales > (and got some right bargains...) But of course the books I wanted never got to the library sales section. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 18 17:31:17 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 10:31:17 +1200 Subject: D subminiture connectors Re: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <200608181818.44955.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608171703.NAA10423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608181535.09623.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608182026.QAA03104@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608181818.44955.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 8/19/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > DC is a size I almost never see, and I don't remember the exact pin > > count. 37? 39? Something like that. > > 37 pins, and it's found on the metal bracket of original PC/XT floppy > controller cards. And a more interesting place... there's a DC37 for the external floppy cable on a DECmate I to support up to two RX02 units (there's two cables... one with a single DB25 to a single RX02, and a Y-cable with two DB25s to two RX02s - there's room for four 8" drive mechanisms in the pedestal). -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 18 17:38:26 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 16:38:26 -0600 Subject: first Classics (WAS Apollo DN systems) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E64162.9020304@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > My first thought its that the 'ideal first classic' depends very much on > what you're interested in. OK, I am the exception, being primarily a > hardware person, so my interest is in CPUs built from simple-ish logic > chips (the 74x181 being about the most complicated device I like to see > in a CPU :-)). Well my first computer other than useing a PDP-8 was FPGA design that was tied to the prototype board and PC to download the internal logic. The next design was going to be a CPLD design, and I got the chips for that. Now I am working on a 2901 design. All at the moment only on paper but something different than a 8 or 16 bit cpu from Intel or Motorola. > My second thought is that the 'ideal first classic' is the one you're > offered. Most of us don't have the luxury of being able to pick any > classic computer, we restore the machine we can get our grubby little > hands on :-) I bought a SBC1620, what else is the most Classic -- a PDP 8. > This can lead to some interesting 'problems'. The first minicomputer I > got -- in fact the first machine I had without a single-chip CPU was a > Philips P850. A machine that few people have ever heard of, let alone > know anything about. I was very much on my own with the machine and the > technical manual.... > What I like about about this list is there is other computers than DEC's products out there and I would like to know more about the others. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 18 17:59:21 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 18:59:21 -0400 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8754c8d913870a19f12c1f910e05f374@neurotica.com> On Aug 18, 2006, at 4:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> From 1986 to early 1988 I worked on the Navier-Stokes Supercomputer >> Project at Princeton University. Each node of that machine had four >> 4MW memory planes (36-bit word) built from 41256 chips; 576 chips per >> memory plane, handled by a pair of Intel 8207 DRAM controllers. We >> had >> really nasty problems with the refresh cycles creating tons of noise >> on >> the Vcc bus. Man that was a nightmare; it took weeks to get it >> cleaned >> up. If I recall correctly we wound up rebuilding the boards with a >> bypass capacitor for every DRAM chip. > > Which you darn well should have fitted in the first place!. As I've > said > many times 'Decoupling capacitors are cheap, my time in finding > glitches > is not'. OK if you're going into production it _might_ be worth saving > a > few pence by eliminating unnecessary capacitors. But for a prototype, > fit at least one per chip. Period. Well let's put it this way. I was the sixteen-year-old kid coming in to wire-wrap and test after school, and the two Princeton University professors were the ones doing the design. Many people suggested heavier bypassing, but were smacked down at every turn, and "everybody knows the PhDs know better!" *spit* -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 18 18:13:21 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 16:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Aug 18, 6 10:04:01 pm" Message-ID: <200608182313.k7INDLvT010164@floodgap.com> > > > I find "socket" and "pin" more confusing, because, honestly, my initial > > > reaction is that they refer to the same sex. ^^^ > > > > Sooooo...when is the last time you went on a date? ^^^^ > > What's a 'date'? Next, someone else is going to ask, "what's sex?" -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "97% of readers say surveys are rubbish" -- The Register ------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 18 18:52:23 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 16:52:23 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E63C63.1000803@dakotacom.net> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> <44E63C63.1000803@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608181652230233.06E667E0@10.0.0.252> On 8/18/2006 at 3:17 PM Don wrote: >But, user applications can be developed using tools that >fail to observe your conventions WITHIN their application. >I.e. it seems like the only mechanisms that you can put >in place are those that are invoked at protection boundaries. >(?) Why are protections primarily reserved for OS-level tasks? Why not subset protections within the user area? A user should be able to say that a plugin or DLL should have only a certain limited number of privledges. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 18 19:31:57 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:31:57 -0700 Subject: MULTICS manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:34 PM +0100 8/18/06, Tony Duell wrote: > > Sounds like my local public library. They still have books on Lotus 1-2-3 >> for DOS, getting the most out of your Mac Plus, 101 things to do with your >> Commodore 128... > >All the public libraries round here seem to have are books like 'Windows >XP for people with a mental age of 2' . Still, I shouldn't moan, I've >bought most of the real computing and electronic books at library sales >(and got some right bargains...) That's also where a bunch of the old Computer books I've donated to the History Resource Center came from. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Aug 18 19:49:02 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 00:49:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608181652230233.06E667E0@10.0.0.252> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> <44E63C63.1000803@dakotacom.net> <200608181652230233.06E667E0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/18/2006 at 3:17 PM Don wrote: > >> But, user applications can be developed using tools that >> fail to observe your conventions WITHIN their application. >> I.e. it seems like the only mechanisms that you can put >> in place are those that are invoked at protection boundaries. >> (?) > > Why are protections primarily reserved for OS-level tasks? Why not subset > protections within the user area? A user should be able to say that a > plugin or DLL should have only a certain limited number of privledges. This is computationally expensive and complicated. Every time you have to cross a privilege boundary you have to switch context, validate any data going across and verify permissions. You also need an exact specification of the interface for every such interface - if the system doesn't know what your DLL is allowed to do, how can it stop it from doing what it shouldn't? This is why this sort of pain is usually reserved for the user-kernel interface. Alexey From allain at panix.com Fri Aug 18 19:48:55 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 20:48:55 -0400 Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" References: <44E3A2F4.8@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060816184022.05885458@mail><44E3CBA6.7010008@dakotacom.net><1155798009.12871.2.camel@localhost.localdomain><44E49E28.8000507@dakotacom.net><7.0.1.0.0.20060817215228.035e0e90@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> <20060817235814.6F5E9BA4154@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <028001c6c329$6113c980$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> 1) Attempting to get back on target, I too have a watchman with a faulty screen, black IIRC. 2) It would be fun to find someone who cracked the Watchman format so as to be able to author "new" disks. 3) Going off onto the tangent, I have found some camcorders with BW tubes that take standard NTSC signals. Not sure how commonly the standard signals are used on various monitors' pinouts. Modern equipment mfg'ers must punch out OEM Color LCD monitor assemblies for about $20/each. It's a shame that the only NTSC/or/VGA ready mini-monitors (sub 2") I've seen start at about $700. John A. s/monitor/monitor pod subassembly/ From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Fri Aug 18 20:18:19 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 18:18:19 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608181652230233.06E667E0@10.0.0.252> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> <44E63C63.1000803@dakotacom.net> <200608181652230233.06E667E0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44E666DB.6000208@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/18/2006 at 3:17 PM Don wrote: > >> But, user applications can be developed using tools that >> fail to observe your conventions WITHIN their application. >> I.e. it seems like the only mechanisms that you can put >> in place are those that are invoked at protection boundaries. >> (?) > > Why are protections primarily reserved for OS-level tasks? Why not subset > protections within the user area? A user should be able to say that a > plugin or DLL should have only a certain limited number of privledges. I do that. An application can delegate what *subset* of it's privileges are awarded to tasks/threads that it spawns. And, the namespace is protected so I can put an application in a "jail" simply by creting a namespace that only references the objects that *I* think it should have access to. But, you still have to deal with *rogue* applications (Ohmigosh!) and/or *crappy* applications. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Fri Aug 18 20:20:21 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 18:20:21 -0700 Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" In-Reply-To: <028001c6c329$6113c980$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <44E3A2F4.8@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060816184022.05885458@mail><44E3CBA6.7010008@dakotacom.net><1155798009.12871.2.camel@localhost.localdomain><44E49E28.8000507@dakotacom.net><7.0.1.0.0.20060817215228.035e0e90@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> <20060817235814.6F5E9BA4154@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <028001c6c329$6113c980$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <44E66755.80907@dakotacom.net> John Allain wrote: > 1) Attempting to get back on target, I too have a watchman with a faulty > screen, black IIRC. > > 2) It would be fun to find someone who cracked the Watchman format so > as to be able to author "new" disks. Huh? Are we talking about the same device? The watchman that I am referencing is just a television. B&W. With a "real" (though "bent") CRT. > 3) Going off onto the tangent, I have found some camcorders with BW tubes > that take standard NTSC signals. Not sure how commonly the standard signals > are used on various monitors' pinouts. Modern equipment mfg'ers must punch > out OEM Color LCD monitor assemblies for about $20/each. It's a shame that > the only NTSC/or/VGA ready mini-monitors (sub 2") I've seen start at about > $700. > > John A. > s/monitor/monitor pod subassembly/ > > From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Fri Aug 18 20:21:34 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 18:21:34 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> <44E63C63.1000803@dakotacom.net> <200608181652230233.06E667E0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44E6679E.8020501@dakotacom.net> Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 8/18/2006 at 3:17 PM Don wrote: >> >>> But, user applications can be developed using tools that >>> fail to observe your conventions WITHIN their application. >>> I.e. it seems like the only mechanisms that you can put >>> in place are those that are invoked at protection boundaries. >>> (?) >> >> Why are protections primarily reserved for OS-level tasks? Why not >> subset >> protections within the user area? A user should be able to say that a >> plugin or DLL should have only a certain limited number of privledges. > > This is computationally expensive and complicated. Every time you have > to cross a privilege boundary you have to switch context, validate any > data going across and verify permissions. You also need an exact > specification of the interface for every such interface - if the system > doesn't know what your DLL is allowed to do, how can it stop it from > doing what it shouldn't? This is why this sort of pain is usually > reserved for the user-kernel interface. Or, in a microkernel/multiserver environment, between any two *services*/client/etc. From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Aug 18 21:11:34 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 22:11:34 -0400 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 19 Aug 2006 00:49:02 -0000." Message-ID: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> Alexey Toptygin wrote: >> >> Why are protections primarily reserved for OS-level tasks? Why not subset >> protections within the user area? A user should be able to say that a >> plugin or DLL should have only a certain limited number of privledges. > >This is computationally expensive and complicated. Every time you have to >cross a privilege boundary you have to switch context, validate any data I think this whole discussion is at the wrong level. You need to free yourself from the "C and pointers" mentality. If the userland application programming language didn't have pointers and had dynamic type checking you might find the whole problem just goes away. pointers are not your friend unless you are programming in assembler (and believe me, C is just a nice portable assembler) jump up a few levels. abstraction is your friend. (oh, and there is my "useless, off topic, and confused" posting for the month. just to stay on quota :-) -brad From allain at panix.com Fri Aug 18 21:32:06 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 22:32:06 -0400 Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" References: <44E3A2F4.8@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060816184022.05885458@mail><44E3CBA6.7010008@dakotacom.net><1155798009.12871.2.camel@localhost.localdomain><44E49E28.8000507@dakotacom.net><7.0.1.0.0.20060817215228.035e0e90@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> <20060817235814.6F5E9BA4154@mini-me.trailing-edge.com><028001c6c329$6113c980$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44E66755.80907@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <000801c6c337$aaae3900$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Huh? Are we talking about the same device? The watchman that > I am referencing is just a television. B&W. With a "real" > (though "bent") CRT. Oops. Data Discman. More on topic Tho. Must Sleep. John A. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Aug 18 23:23:45 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 23:23:45 -0500 Subject: 11/34a failing trap test Message-ID: <7A702650-DFFD-4D71-AAE3-C2DC3373099A@earthlink.net> Okay, I got the 11/34 up and running, and I loaded XXDP. It fails the trap test. The instructions state you should examine the stack pointer (777706) which shows it to be a value of 000470. This is supposed to tell you the address of the Program Counter, right? So I load address 470, and the value is 000330. What instruction is failing? Am I reading this right? Any help, as always, much appreciated. Thanks! Julian From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 19 00:11:03 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 23:11:03 -0600 Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <200608182313.k7INDLvT010164@floodgap.com> References: <200608182313.k7INDLvT010164@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <44E69D67.7010608@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Next, someone else is going to ask, "what's sex?" Why ask? you can find out on-line quite easy now days. :) Other than the 6809 did any other computers have the memonic SEX - Sign EXtend? From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sat Aug 19 01:05:00 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 06:05:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Brad Parker wrote: > I think this whole discussion is at the wrong level. You need to free > yourself from the "C and pointers" mentality. Why? Why should I tell myself that there are no pointers if in fact pointers are in use? If I close my eyes will the processor stop addressing memory? I don't thinks so. > If the userland application programming language didn't have pointers > and had dynamic type checking you might find the whole problem just > goes away. No, it bloody well doesn't. Security has never magically appeared. You can't give up pointers for lent and discover you've become hackerproof. > pointers are not your friend unless you are programming in assembler > (and believe me, C is just a nice portable assembler) > > jump up a few levels. abstraction is your friend. Abstraction does not stop someone from using the raw capabilities of the machine. Only by taking away the ability to write to protected memory can you achieve security. > (oh, and there is my "useless, off topic, and confused" posting for the > month. just to stay on quota :-) Seriously. Alexey From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 19 01:11:20 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 23:11:20 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> <44E63C63.1000803@dakotacom.net> <200608181652230233.06E667E0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608182311200655.08415662@10.0.0.252> On 8/19/2006 at 12:49 AM Alexey Toptygin wrote: >This is computationally expensive and complicated. Every time you have to >cross a privilege boundary you have to switch context, validate any data >going across and verify permissions. You also need an exact specification >of the interface for every such interface - if the system doesn't know >what your DLL is allowed to do, how can it stop it from doing what it >shouldn't? This is why this sort of pain is usually reserved for the >user-kernel interface. I don't think so. There is a subset of all DLLs that can be classified as "trusted"--they know to check arguments and the operation is well-defined. One might classify these as "friendly" DLLs and omit any sort of checking. For all others, the calling program can specify a tighter degree of control at the expense of more overhead. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Aug 19 01:22:06 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 23:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <44E69D67.7010608@jetnet.ab.ca> from woodelf at "Aug 18, 6 11:11:03 pm" Message-ID: <200608190622.k7J6M7bh008390@floodgap.com> > > Next, someone else is going to ask, "what's sex?" > Why ask? you can find out on-line quite easy now days. :) > Other than the 6809 did any other computers have the memonic > SEX - Sign EXtend? This proves they didn't know. ;) Three NASA engineers, one from headquarters in Washington, one from the Johnson center in Houston, and one from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, were discussing whether it was better to have a wife or a mistress. The HQ guy said it was better to have a mistress, because they are more understanding of the long absences required of a NASA employee. The Johnson guy retorted, "Oh, no, one must always follow proper rules and procedures, and marriage is the proper procedure, so it is better to have a wife." The JPL engineer replied, "No, it is better to have both. That way, you can tell your wife that you're with your mistress, your mistress that you're with your wife, and go to the lab and work." Someone like that would also create a Sign EXtend mnemonic ... -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You're only as good as the last problem someone had. -- Ballmer on security From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Aug 19 01:25:51 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 23:25:51 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608182311200655.08415662@10.0.0.252> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> <44E63C63.1000803@dakotacom.net> <200608181652230233.06E667E0@10.0.0.252> <200608182311200655.08415662@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44E6AEEF.2060704@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/19/2006 at 12:49 AM Alexey Toptygin wrote: > >> This is computationally expensive and complicated. Every time you have to >> cross a privilege boundary you have to switch context, validate any data >> going across and verify permissions. You also need an exact specification >> of the interface for every such interface - if the system doesn't know >> what your DLL is allowed to do, how can it stop it from doing what it >> shouldn't? This is why this sort of pain is usually reserved for the >> user-kernel interface. > > I don't think so. There is a subset of all DLLs that can be classified as > "trusted"--they know to check arguments and the operation is well-defined. > One might classify these as "friendly" DLLs and omit any sort of checking. > For all others, the calling program can specify a tighter degree of control > at the expense of more overhead. You're still relying on the application ("the calling program") to do this properly. It's yet another place for bugs to creep in. OTOH, if you can treat the features/facilities provided by that DLL as a *service* and can encapsulate that service within a protection domain, then the service can be robust (at the added expense of yet another protection domain to cross) From cc at corti-net.de Sat Aug 19 02:40:39 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 09:40:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: D subminiture connectors In-Reply-To: <200608182026.QAA03104@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200608171703.NAA10423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> <3.0.6.16.20060818150856.0eefc80a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200608181535.09623.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608182026.QAA03104@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, der Mouse wrote: > DC is a size I almost never see, and I don't remember the exact pin > count. 37? 39? Something like that. 37, very common, e.g. for external floppy drives. > DE was tacked on as an afterthought. (I suppose they could have used > D@, but that would make sense only to geeks who know their ASCII. :) Well, the D-type connectors are at least 50 to 60 years old, so there was no ASCII back then. Besides, they weren't invented for computer use, but e.g. as robust connectors for industrial and military applications. The pins are rated for several hundred volts and at least one ampere, I think. Christian From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Aug 19 02:45:57 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 03:45:57 -0400 Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" In-Reply-To: <44E66755.80907@dakotacom.net> References: <44E3A2F4.8@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060816184022.05885458@mail> <44E3CBA6.7010008@dakotacom.net> <1155798009.12871.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44E49E28.8000507@dakotacom.net> <7.0.1.0.0.20060817215228.035e0e90@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> <20060817235814.6F5E9BA4154@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <028001c6c329$6113c980$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44E66755.80907@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <20060819074557.676E3BA4157@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Don wrote: > John Allain wrote: > > [Maybe on the subject of the Sony Watchman] > > 2) It would be fun to find someone who cracked the Watchman format so > > as to be able to author "new" disks. > > Huh? Are we talking about the same device? The watchman that > I am referencing is just a television. B&W. With a "real" > (though "bent") CRT. There have been various items sold under the "Watchman" name over the years, and I seem to recall some company selling a small portable videodisc player (using a tiny disc and a completely incompatible format) in the late 90's/early 2000's that seems to have faded into obscurity. Was this Sony maybe? In any event at that point in time the display technology was not CRT but some kind of LCD. There was also in the early 2000's a kids toy that had a very low resolution LCD (maybe something like 96x64!) and could play discs or cartridges of some kind. I seem to recall this being reverse engineered by hackers. The issue of "forgotten media" is shared between video and audio and computers and a number of other areas. One of my childhood memories was when my dad got a Mickey Mouse film projector at a yard sale along with some short Disney films. Tim. From cc at corti-net.de Sat Aug 19 03:08:37 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 10:08:37 +0200 (CEST) Subject: TRS-80 Model II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > I assume this is a schematic in the technical reference or service manual... Yes. > Be careful, In the case of the M3 (a machine which I _have_ worked on), > the PSU was bought-in from ASTEC. ASTEC did not supply (or allow to be > publisehd?) their schematics, so it appears somebody at Radio Shack > reverse-enegineered the board to provide a schematic for the manual. And Hmm, the power supply in the M2 was from ASTEC, too. But the technical reference manual has an own chapter for the PSU with some bits of information on how it works, but no parts list... > That said, I've found the 2SD1942 to be a good 'universal' chopper in > most small single-stage SMPSUs. Does it come in a TO-3 case? The BU208(-A/-D) should be a good replacement, too. Anyway, either it works or it doesn't, there's not much to lose here. Of course the "repaired" PSU should first be tested with a "safe" load (power resistors) to check the output voltages. Christian From cannings at earthlink.net Sat Aug 19 03:17:56 2006 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 01:17:56 -0700 Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? References: <200608182313.k7INDLvT010164@floodgap.com> <44E69D67.7010608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <000f01c6c367$fa04e370$6401a8c0@hal9000> RCA 1802 has " SEt X register " a.k.a. " SEX ... Best regards, Steven Canning > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Next, someone else is going to ask, "what's sex?" > Why ask? you can find out on-line quite easy now days. :) > Other than the 6809 did any other computers have the memonic > SEX - Sign EXtend? From statn1 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 18 15:16:47 2006 From: statn1 at earthlink.net (Roger Fairman) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 16:16:47 -0400 Subject: Mitsubishi Monitor Message-ID: I have a need for this monitor. It is used on a measuring system. It is not used with todays PC's, Mac or otherwise. I have been looking for one for awhile. Please contact me at following phone number 1-888-769-9017 Roger Fairman Specialty Tires of America 1000 Don Mateer Drive Unicoi, TN. 37692 From statn1 at earthlink.net Fri Aug 18 15:21:07 2006 From: statn1 at earthlink.net (Roger Fairman) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 16:21:07 -0400 Subject: Mitsubishi Monitor Message-ID: Here is our E-MAIL address for response on Mitsubishi Monitor statn1 at earthlink.net From vax at purdue.edu Fri Aug 18 17:18:41 2006 From: vax at purdue.edu (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 18:18:41 -0400 Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" In-Reply-To: <44E49D9D.5040908@dakotacom.net> References: <44E3A2F4.8@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060817090515.058c0a08@mail> <44E49D9D.5040908@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608181818.41201.vax@purdue.edu> On Thursday 17 August 2006 12:47, Don wrote: > I'll drive it with whatever I need to in order to get the > images I want on the display. I would prefer NOT going in > through the front end (RF) but can probably bypass that. > (I'll have to look through my Sony docs to see if I have > a Watchman service manual or if that is just too old for > my collection :< ) The Sony Watchman I've got (no, I don't want to give it up;) has an 1/8" (mini) jack, which accepts RS-170(A) video. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac From derschjo at msu.edu Fri Aug 18 20:30:42 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 18:30:42 -0700 Subject: Archived a few PERQ games... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E669C2.1070705@msu.edu> Thanks for all the info -- it'll definitely come in handy. I now have a complete image of the PERQ's hard disk (available on my website as well) and I'm working on some software to allow me to traverse the partitions/filesystems in the image to extract software. Figure that could come in handy at some point. I wish modern hard drives lasted as long as this thing has -- 25+ years old and only a handful of bad sectors... Thanks again, Josh Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> I don't know if it's any use to you, but _years_ ago I wrote a Turbo >>> Pascal program (runs under MS-DOS) to read double-density PERQ >>> 'interchange' floppies on a PC. As set up, it's designed to use a >>> secondary controller in the PC (the XT on my desk has such a controller >>> linked to a pair of 8" drives...). >>> >>> If you're interested (or if anyone else is interested) I can dig out the >>> source code. I seem to remeber the original distribution terms were that >>> I hold the copyright, but 'further distribution for the benefit of PERQ >>> fanatics is encouraged). >>> >>> >>> >> I'd definitely be interested in having the software for future use; as >> > > OK, I will see if I can find it. I am happy for it to go on an ftp/web > site, of course. > > >> it currently stands I don't have any software on floppies to read so I >> won't have much use for it. (Plus I still need to get an 8" floppy >> > > You can, of course, transfer data from the hard disk to a floppy on the > PERQ ;-). > > >> connected to a PC, I have one sitting around for the job but haven't >> gotten around to hooking it up yet.) >> > > Or you could link a 5152" 1.2M floppy drive to the PERQ in place of the > 8" one. I have info on the cable I made to do that... > > Using a 5.25" 1.2Mbyte floppy disk with the PERQ > ------------------------------------------------ > > Data Cable > > PERQ EIO 5.25" Drive > > 1 o > 2 o > 3 o > 4 o > 5 o > 6 o > 7 o > 8 o > 9 o--Gnd-----+ > 10 o--2 side--+ > 11 o > 12 o > 13 o-----Gnd--------------------o 31 > 14 o-----Head Select------------o 32 > 15 o > 16 o > 17 o > 18 o > 19 o-----Gnd--------------------o 7 > 20 o-----Index------------------o 8 > 21 o-----Gnd--------------------o 33 > 22 o-----Ready------------------o 34 > 23 o > 24 o > 25 o-----Gnd--------------------o 11 > 26 o-----Drive Sel 0------------o 12 > 27 o > 28 o +----Gnd---------------o 15 > 29 o +----Motor On----------o 16 > 30 o > 31 o > 32 o > 33 o-----Gnd--------------------o 17 > 34 o-----Direction--------------o 18 > 35 o-----Gnd--------------------o 19 > 36 o-----Step-------------------o 20 > 37 o-----Gnd--------------------o 21 > 38 o-----Wr Data----------------o 22 > 39 o-----Gnd--------------------o 23 > 40 o-----Wr Gate----------------o 24 > 41 o-----Gnd--------------------o 25 > 42 o-----Trk 00-----------------o 26 > 43 o-----Gnd--------------------o 27 > 44 o-----Wr Prot----------------o 28 > 45 o-----Gnd--------------------o 29 > 46 o-----Rd Data----------------o 30 > 47 o > 48 o > 49 o > 50 o > > Construction > 1) Crimp 34 pin IDC edge connector to one end of 1m length of multicoloured IDC > ribbon cable, so that pin 1 is connected to the first brown wire, and pin 34 to > the last yellow wire. > > 2) At the other end of the cable, separate the wires between : > 6,7 (blue,violet) > 8,9 (grey, white) > 10,11 (black, brown) > 12,13 (red, orange) > 14,15 (yellow,green) > 16,17 (blue, violet) > 30,31 (black, brown) > 32,33 (red, orange) > > 3) Make the wide section (wires 17-30) about 8 cm long, by tearing back the > other sections. > > 4) Crimp wires 17-30 (violet - black) to pins 33-46 of a 50 pin IDC edge > connector. Remove the top part of the connector after crimping so that other > wires can be added. > > 5) Similarly crimp 31,32 (brown and red) to 13,14 of the 50 pin edge connector, > 33,34 (orange, yellow) to pins 21,22, 7,8 (violet, grey) to pins 19,20 and 11,12 > (brown, red) to pins 25,26. > > 6) Crimp a short spare length of IDC wire between pins 9 and 10 of the 50 pin > edge connector. Fit the top part, and press it firmly into place. > > 7) Cut off wires 1-6 (brown-blue), 9,10 (white, black), and 13,14 (orange, > yellow). > > 8) Strip wires 15,16 (green, blue), and twist them together. Solder the > connection, and insulate it with a short length of Heat-shrink sleeving > > Power Cable > ----------- > > +5V and +12V to operate the floppy drive can be obtained from the Tablet Power > Connector on the rear of PERQ2 machines. A suitable cable is given below. > Check the connections to the floppy drive to make sure you have the +5 and +12 > the right way round before you apply power. Some drives have the connections > marked on the PCB. > > 4pin DIN (Plug Wire Side) Floppy Drive > > +--------- +5V ---------------------------(4 > | > o1 > o---- +12V ---------------------------(1 > o > o > | > +--------- Gnd ---------------------------(2 > +--------- Gnd ---------------------------(3 > > Drive links > ----------- > > Set the drive to respond to Drive Select 1 (the default for PC drives) > > The PERQ will boot from floppy if the Ready pin (pin 34 of the 34 pin connector) > is held low when th edrive is selected, and will not use the drive under any > circumstances if the ready pin is high when the drive is selected. > Some drives allow a Ready signal to be output on this line, often by setting an > internal link. If this is possible, do it. Otherwise, _try_ connecting the ready > input on the PERQ to the Drive Select output via a SPST switch. Close this > switch when there is a floppy in the drive > > Notes > ----- > The PERQ checks for the drive being ready _before_ asserting the Head Load > Signal, and thus the head load output cannot be used to drive the Motor On > input. By tying the Motor On input low, the drive motor runs whenever there is a > floppy in the drive. This is a good compromise, but may cause wear of the disk > and heads if left there for an extended period. Do not leave a floppy disk in > the drive if it is not being used > > The 2-side input of the PERQ is pulled low, so that the disk is assumed to be > double sided. > > The cable links the top connector on the EIO board to a standard 1.2Mbyte 5.25" > floppy. Pin 1 is at the top of the EIO board. > > The PERQ 8" drive rotates at 360rpm, as do 1.2Mbyte drives. However, tests have > shown that a 300rpm drive will also work, although not all of its capacity will > be used. Therefore, a 3.5" 1.44Mbyte drive is another possibility. > > > > >>> If you need any help with accessing the hard disk, etc, I may well have >>> useful information around. I certainly have things like the I/O port map, >>> etc. >>> >>> >>> >> Definitely; I believe I have something working (it's chugging along as >> we speak) using POS system calls; I've just uploaded the source of my >> program to my site ( >> > > OK, I will take a look... > > >> http://yahozna.dhs.org/computers/software/PERQ/dumpdisk.pas). Go easy >> on me, it's both my first Pascal program and my first PERQ program, and >> > > Don't worry, I don't claim to be a programmer, I release source to stuff > I've written mainly to give programmers a good laugh... > > >> I haven't cleaned it up much. Might be useful for other people >> interested in preserving the contents of their drives. >> >>> Good luck. The PERQ is not a simple machine at all. Having managed to >>> understand how the CPU works, I'd not want to try emulating it... >>> >>> And a PERQ 2 would be even worse. On that series, you can run user code >>> on the I/O processor (Z80).... >>> >>> -tony >>> >>> >>> >> Yeah -- like I said, we'll see how it turns out :). There seems to be a >> lot of available documentation on the system (microcode, etc...) so I'm >> > > AFAIK doscuemtnation for just about everything exists. There are full > schematics for most machines (I think the 2T4 is missing). PROM/PAL dumps > exist. Commented sources to the bootstrap ROMs and EIO Z80 ROM exist. I > am not sure if there are sources for the Z80 ROM on the PERQ 1's CIO > card, I can see (but I do know that the CIO and EIO ROMs are _very_ > different). > > >> hoping that's enough to get a good start -- and you sound like the >> person to ask if it's not :). >> > > > Feel free.... > > -tony > > > > From derschjo at msu.edu Sat Aug 19 01:14:58 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 23:14:58 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: References: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <44E6AC62.8090503@msu.edu> You may be interested in the Singularity project (a research project at Microsoft, no less). It (gasp!) abstracts away pointers; the IL used for the entire OS (a subset of the CLR), the OS interface, et. al. is designed such that processes can be "proven" to be safe -- and all process protection is done _without_ the use of any CPU hardware. http://research.microsoft.com/os/singularity/ Josh Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Brad Parker wrote: > >> I think this whole discussion is at the wrong level. You need to free >> yourself from the "C and pointers" mentality. > > Why? Why should I tell myself that there are no pointers if in fact > pointers are in use? If I close my eyes will the processor stop > addressing memory? I don't thinks so. > >> If the userland application programming language didn't have pointers >> and had dynamic type checking you might find the whole problem just >> goes away. > > No, it bloody well doesn't. Security has never magically appeared. You > can't give up pointers for lent and discover you've become hackerproof. > >> pointers are not your friend unless you are programming in assembler >> (and believe me, C is just a nice portable assembler) >> >> jump up a few levels. abstraction is your friend. > > Abstraction does not stop someone from using the raw capabilities of > the machine. Only by taking away the ability to write to protected > memory can you achieve security. > >> (oh, and there is my "useless, off topic, and confused" posting for the >> month. just to stay on quota :-) > > Seriously. > > Alexey > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Aug 19 07:29:31 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:29:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: LSI 11/2 question In-Reply-To: Scott Quinn "RE: LSI 11/2 question" (Aug 17, 20:31) References: Message-ID: <10608191329.ZM10168@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Aug 17 2006, 20:31, Scott Quinn wrote: > An PDP-11/03 processor, LSI-11 quad-height M7264EB (does anything > go out over the C/D fingers, or are they just there for stability?) I'm not sure exactly what version that is but it does supply refresh for the memory, although only the very earliest memory boards actually need that -- in fact your MSV11-B is the only one I can think of that does -- and it's sometimes disabled. W4 controls that, it's inserted to *disable* it. And that board possibly has 8K bytes of memory on it already, which needs the refresh enabled. Are the five MICROM sockets right at the edge of the board, or is there some circuitry just to the left of them? The former is KD11-F, the latter is KD11-J. Usually the former has on-board memory, usually the latter does not. If there's a 23-003B5 chip in the leftmost socket, you have the optional KEV11, which contains the EIS/FIS instruction set. You didn't mention -- or I missed it -- what backplane you have. I'm guessing it's a "straight" backplane like an H9273. If so, what the LSI-11 puts on the C/D fingers shouldn't matter, unless you put something immediately below it that dislikes the LSI-11. I don't think there's anything untoward on C/D, though, because they can be used in "serpentine" backplanes like the H9270 used in the small BA11-M box for small 11/03 systems. > DHV11-A 8-line async serial Interesting; that's a slightly later vintage than the other parts. > RXV11 (forgot the V originally...) That will need an RX01 (or an RX02 with the switches set for RX01 emulation) dual 8" floppy drive. > either MSV11-B 4k RAM This one needs the refresh control signal from the LSI-11. > or MSV11-PL 256K ram (18-bit, but will the LSI-11 just ignore the > extra or will it futz up?) The 18-bit designation for the memory means that it has two parity bits as well as the 16 data bits, and the processor will ignore that. Actually, the MSV11-P has it's own parity CSR so some OSs might be able to use it. It might not work because the extra address lines may not be held at the right level -- the 11/03 only has 16 address lines and no memory management, and it puts some extraneous signals on the top 4 address lines -- but although the MSV11-P supports 22-bit addressing, it also works in 18-bit systems, so it's worth trying and it shouldn't do any harm to try it. If it does work, you'll end up with 56K bytes of usable memory, because the top 8K byte page is reserved for I/O. The 16/18/22-bit designations can be confusing when you're talking about memory, because they normally refer to the size of the address bus and hence the address range. An 11/03 (and any CPU using an LSI11 or 11/02) has only 16-bit addressing. An 11/23 may be 18-bit or 22-bit, later processors are 22-bit. However, 16-bit and 18-bit are sometimes used in the contect of memory to refer to the data bus width: 16 bits with, or without, two parity bits. > Am I getting in too deep for a first-go at a PDP-11? I wouldn't say so. It's a fairly simple machine, as -11s go. You want to see if you can acquire some of the DEC handbooks for those systems, such as the 1976 "Microcomputer Handbook" and perhaps the 1978-79 "Memories and Peripherals Handbook". Other useful ones are the 1982 "Microcomputers and Memories" handbook (doesn't say quite so much about the LSI-11, though, but it does list the jumpers and etch revisions etc), 1980 "Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook", and 1983-84 "Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook". Plus, of course, you should see if you can get any of the engineering drawings as they too contain a lot of useful information. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 19 10:32:43 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:32:43 -0400 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> <44E5F74C.5000006@e-bbes.com> <44E60CE8.9030001@dakotacom.net> <44E618B7.7060604@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <84fc84d4914d7d9a462f8d5e2f143b23@neurotica.com> On Aug 18, 2006, at 3:55 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >>>>> [I'm intensely interested in this as to how it can be done >>>>> to make applications in consumer devices "hacker hardened"] >>>> Run VMS ;-) >>> Bt, is that truly "hacker proof" or "hardened by obscurity"? :> >> >> hacker proof. Just google for "vms defcon 9" > > The fact that no-one at defcon 9 knows VMS well enough to break into a > VMS box says nothing of the security of VMS; it only says something > about it's popularity. Ahhh, somebody doesn't know how widely deployed VMS systems are, but I won't point any fingers! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Sat Aug 19 09:38:11 2006 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 09:38:11 -0500 Subject: 11/34 failing trap test Message-ID: Okay, I got the 11/34 up and running, and I loaded XXDP. It fails the trap test. The instructions state you should examine the stack pointer (777706) which shows it to be a value of 000470. This is supposed to tell you the address of the Program Counter, right? So I load address 470, and the value is 000330. What instruction is failing? Am I reading this right? Any help, as always, much appreciated. Thanks! Julian From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Aug 19 11:06:35 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 09:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-7 instruction set and hardware documentation Message-ID: <200608191606.k7JG6ZLb010834@floodgap.com> Does anyone have documentation on the PDP-7 instruction set and hardware? I know that the PDP-7 is a superset of the PDP-4, but I can't even find much on what instructions the -4 supported (let alone the extended memory and device control operations). A Google session this morning was not useful. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Do not innovate unnecessarily. -- "The Tick" ------------------------------- From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Aug 19 11:37:34 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 17:37:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/34 failing trap test In-Reply-To: "Wolfe, Julian " "11/34 failing trap test" (Aug 19, 9:38) References: Message-ID: <10608191737.ZM10516@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Aug 19 2006, 9:38, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > I got the 11/34 up and running, and I loaded XXDP. It fails the trap > test. The instructions state you should examine the stack pointer > (777706) which shows it to be a value of 000470. This is supposed to > tell you the address of the Program Counter, right? So I load address > 470, and the value is 000330. What instruction is failing? Am I > reading this right? Yes, the stack pointer points to the last address used on the stack, and that will be the value of the PC when it called the error subroutine, or to put it another way, the address of the next instruction to be executed had the JSR not been taken. It's failing at whatever test was just before location 330 -- which is surprisingly low. You'd need to look at the listing to see what the test was. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 19 11:51:16 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 10:51:16 -0600 Subject: PDP-7 instruction set and hardware documentation In-Reply-To: <200608191606.k7JG6ZLb010834@floodgap.com> References: <200608191606.k7JG6ZLb010834@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <44E74184.2030106@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Does anyone have documentation on the PDP-7 instruction set and hardware? > > I know that the PDP-7 is a superset of the PDP-4, but I can't even find much > on what instructions the -4 supported (let alone the extended memory and > device control operations). A Google session this morning was not useful. > Bitsavers has some stuff. http://www.bitsavers.org/ Also looking at source for simh may help. http://simh.trailing-edge.com/ and other reading. http://homepage.mac.com/dgcx/pdp4x/ Some other interesting stuff. From ray at arachelian.com Sat Aug 19 12:15:16 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:15:16 -0400 Subject: Anyone have an Apple Modem 1200 or 300 manual? Message-ID: <44E74724.2040706@arachelian.com> I'm wondering if this was a Hayes compatible modem, and if so what the result strings were for various commands such as just "AT" by itself, and "ATI", "ATI0" and so on. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Aug 19 12:23:35 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 10:23:35 -0700 Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" In-Reply-To: <200608181818.41201.vax@purdue.edu> References: <44E3A2F4.8@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060817090515.058c0a08@mail> <44E49D9D.5040908@dakotacom.net> <200608181818.41201.vax@purdue.edu> Message-ID: <44E74917.5030303@dakotacom.net> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 17 August 2006 12:47, Don wrote: >> I'll drive it with whatever I need to in order to get the >> images I want on the display. I would prefer NOT going in >> through the front end (RF) but can probably bypass that. >> (I'll have to look through my Sony docs to see if I have >> a Watchman service manual or if that is just too old for >> my collection :< ) > > The Sony Watchman I've got (no, I don't want to give it up;) has an 1/8" > (mini) jack, which accepts RS-170(A) video. Really? I had never noticed that. (I had purchased one for my sister MANY years ago but she, of course, no longer has hers) That makes things a lot easier to use... once I *find* one! :> Thanks! --don From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Aug 19 12:31:04 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:31:04 -0400 Subject: Anyone have an Apple Modem 1200 or 300 manual? References: <44E74724.2040706@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <005301c6c3b5$3fe42110$0b01a8c0@game> Do you mean the Apple personal modem? http://www.tarosworld.com/apple/old_peripherals/personal_modem/front.jpg If so I should have the manual for that model. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Arachelian" To: Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 1:15 PM Subject: Anyone have an Apple Modem 1200 or 300 manual? > I'm wondering if this was a Hayes compatible modem, and if so what the > result strings were for various commands such as just "AT" by itself, > and "ATI", "ATI0" and so on. From ray at arachelian.com Sat Aug 19 12:52:17 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:52:17 -0400 Subject: Anyone have an Apple Modem 1200 or 300 manual? In-Reply-To: <005301c6c3b5$3fe42110$0b01a8c0@game> References: <44E74724.2040706@arachelian.com> <005301c6c3b5$3fe42110$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <44E74FD1.8080909@arachelian.com> Not sure what it looks like, other than it was built around 1983 or so, and it's an external modem. Like this one: http://i9.ebayimg.com/02/i/07/61/8c/3a_1_b.JPG http://i6.ebayimg.com/05/i/07/6d/3f/9d_1.JPG From: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180018545002&indexURL=1 Teo Zenios wrote: > Do you mean the Apple personal modem? > > http://www.tarosworld.com/apple/old_peripherals/personal_modem/front.jpg > > If so I should have the manual for that model. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray Arachelian" > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 1:15 PM > Subject: Anyone have an Apple Modem 1200 or 300 manual? > > > >> I'm wondering if this was a Hayes compatible modem, and if so what the >> result strings were for various commands such as just "AT" by itself, >> and "ATI", "ATI0" and so on. >> > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 19 13:15:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:15:34 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E6AEEF.2060704@dakotacom.net> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> <44E63C63.1000803@dakotacom.net> <200608181652230233.06E667E0@10.0.0.252> <200608182311200655.08415662@10.0.0.252> <44E6AEEF.2060704@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608191115340179.0AD867E8@10.0.0.252> This talk about stack smashing brought up an interesting memory. I don't think I've ever seen a description of a special project that I worked on in the early 70's while at CDC SSD. This was a project for the Air Force Logistics Command, called Advanced Logistics System or ALS. The idea, which was pretty darned advanced for the time, was to maintain a real-time online database of all materials worldwide managed by AFLC. Each item would be tagged with a card and its status and location maintained in a large shared database as it moved through the system. Notions of equivalent and substitutible items were part of the process and a whole pile of software that dealt with making tradeoffs on time-to-delivery and priority was to be written. Yes, this also included nuclear devices. The programming of the applications was done by something like 1400 GSA personnel writing reams and reams of COBOL. Initially, most of the big-iron vendors submitted responses to the RFP. The first time, only CDC managed to pass the benchmark and it was decided to release a revised RFP that would enable more than one vendor to qualify. In the end, IBM managed to get the benchmark to run, but refused to submit a bid. This project was a huge cash cow for CDC, bringing in over $500M over the first half of the 1970's. The hardware was pretty straghtforward. Up to 4 CYBER 74s couipled to 4MW of ECS and multiple-access controllers on the mass storage (a farm of 844 disk drives), tapes and unit record equipment. Remote terminal equipment was 1700 minis connected to various third-party small card-handling equipment. I think the modems for the leased lines were Milgo. But the operating system was the interesting part. An application consisted of a number COBOL modules, each running as an independent task grouped together in a job called a "chain". Modules were normally resident in ECS and swapped into any available machine for running. Inter-module communication was performed via a special COBOL CALL statement, with normal COBOL parameter passing. Each machine cluster could run 128 chains consisting of 64 modules. The odd part of this was that all of those wonderful COBOL rules for parameter conversion had to be implemented in executive (privldeged) mode. In fact, other than for device drivers, the whole operating system was located in the CPU, which was very unlike most other CDC operating systems. Data management was a bit bizarre, operating outside of the normal file system, but running as its own set of modules. Eventually, Proxmire called a halt to the project, but I think it represents an interesting milestone in large online database applications. I don't recall any protection issues arising as part of this. Each module was constrained by its own RA and FL and communication with other modules was vetted by the OS executive. To be fair, the CDC machines did not have to deal with issues of virtual memory and the XJ instruction was very fast, saving and reloading the entire register file more than twice as quickly as it could be done with programmed loads and stores. While never implemented, it would have been easy for the lead (master) module in each chain to constrain what a member module could or could not do. Database record locking was done on a module basis, but a lock could be passed from one module to another within the same chain. Yet, I don't think one CDC programmer in 50 back then had ever heard of the OS, called TCM (eventually rechristened Zodiac in honor of a certain personage that was haunting the Bay Area at the time). I doubt that even the most hard-bitten CDC retro freak even remembers it now. Another blast from the past. Cheers, Chuck From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Aug 19 13:20:40 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:20:40 -0700 Subject: DEC 3000/400 Message-ID: <44E75678.3090406@dakotacom.net> Hi, This box has a little fold down door in the front (below the half height CD-ROM/tape drive). It is the size of a second half-height drive bay. But, I'll be damned if I can figure out why it's there! Behind the door there is no way that anything *could* be installed (even if the opening into the chassis was NOT blocked). Perhaps this cover assembly is used for some other product(s) which *could* make use of the space behind it? (obviously, this isn't a material question -- just something trivial.... why go to the expense of putting something there that *only* serves as a place to hide the model number, etc.?) Thanks, --don From kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu Sat Aug 19 14:25:22 2006 From: kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu (Mark KAHRS) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 15:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ancient Genrad system In-Reply-To: <200608190927.k7J9R0mi062278@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608190927.k7J9R0mi062278@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Looks like this contains tasty tidbits but it's too far away from me: http://cgi.ebay.com/genrad-2294-central-station_W0QQitemZ320017707724QQihZ011QQcategoryZ1504QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem At a minimum, it has some really deluxe 8" drives. From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Aug 19 15:04:08 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 16:04:08 -0400 Subject: It is a great day today (bought a vax 3800) Message-ID: After I dragged it home, I found there was not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4 MSCP disk controllers installed in this BA213 cabinet. They are, KFQSA, viking VIA/QTA, CQD223/M, USDC 1108. What a good day today! This is my maximum VAX 3800. My existing VAX 3900 is the minimum, by the way. vax,9000 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 19 15:15:06 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 14:15:06 -0600 Subject: It is a great day today (bought a vax 3800) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E7714A.2060707@jetnet.ab.ca> 9000 VAX wrote: > After I dragged it home, I found there was not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4 MSCP > disk controllers installed in this BA213 cabinet. They are, KFQSA, viking > VIA/QTA, CQD223/M, USDC 1108. What a good day today! This is my maximum VAX > 3800. My existing VAX 3900 is the minimum, by the way. > > vax,9000 Better buy a 3rd VAX, to keep the floor clean from all the dirt you tracked in hauling your prize home. :) From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Aug 19 15:18:53 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 16:18:53 -0400 Subject: It is a great day today (bought a vax 3800) In-Reply-To: <44E7714A.2060707@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <44E7714A.2060707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 8/19/06, woodelf wrote: > > > Better buy a 3rd VAX, to keep the floor clean from all the > dirt you tracked in hauling your prize home. :) That's the English's product. We don't see many here. vax, 9000 From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Aug 19 15:47:39 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 16:47:39 -0400 Subject: Anyone have an Apple Modem 1200 or 300 manual? References: <44E74724.2040706@arachelian.com> <005301c6c3b5$3fe42110$0b01a8c0@game> <44E74FD1.8080909@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <00ba01c6c3d0$b5c68ce0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Arachelian" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 1:52 PM Subject: Re: Anyone have an Apple Modem 1200 or 300 manual? > Not sure what it looks like, other than it was built around 1983 or so, > and it's an external modem. > > Like this one: > > http://i9.ebayimg.com/02/i/07/61/8c/3a_1_b.JPG > http://i6.ebayimg.com/05/i/07/6d/3f/9d_1.JPG > > From: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180018545002&indexURL=1 > > I dug out my modem and manual and they are for model A9M0304, the auction you showed is for A9M0301 so I do not know what the difference would be between them. Since the auction is in a new box I would think the manual is inside anyway. If the modem is like mine then there are 4 different cables available for it (1) Mac Plus/IIgs, (2) Original Mac, (3) Apple II, II+, IIe, III, Mac Xl, and finally (4) Apple IIc). My modem is supposed to be 1200 BAUD also but I have never tried it. From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Aug 19 16:02:09 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 15:02:09 -0600 Subject: iAPX432, was Re: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> <44E63C63.1000803@dakotacom.net> <200608181652230233.06E667E0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44E77C51.7040704@e-bbes.com> Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> Why are protections primarily reserved for OS-level tasks? Why not >> subset >> protections within the user area? A user should be able to say that a >> plugin or DLL should have only a certain limited number of privledges. > > This is computationally expensive and complicated. Every time you have > to cross a privilege boundary you have to switch context, validate any > data going across and verify permissions. You also need an exact > specification of the interface for every such interface - if the system > doesn't know what your DLL is allowed to do, how can it stop it from > doing what it shouldn't? This is why this sort of pain is usually > reserved for the user-kernel interface. There were a lot of good ideas in the iAPX432, anybody knows, if they actually were used on any OS ? From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 19 16:22:21 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 14:22:21 -0700 Subject: It is a great day today (bought a vax 3800) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:04 PM -0400 8/19/06, 9000 VAX wrote: >After I dragged it home, I found there was not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4 MSCP >disk controllers installed in this BA213 cabinet. They are, KFQSA, viking >VIA/QTA, CQD223/M, USDC 1108. What a good day today! This is my maximum VAX >3800. My existing VAX 3900 is the minimum, by the way. > >vax,9000 Nice system, how many of those MSCP controllers are SCSI? I know the Viking and CQD controllers are. How much RAM? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 19 17:35:37 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 17:35:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) Message-ID: <200608192235.k7JMZbhQ091477@keith.ezwind.net> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/19/2006 at 12:49 AM Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > >This is computationally expensive and complicated . > Every time you have to > >cross a privilege boundary you have to switch > context, validate any data > >going across and verify permissions. You also nee d > an exact specification > >of the interface for every such interface - if th e > system doesn't know > >what your DLL is allowed to do, how can it stop i t > from doing what it > >shouldn't? This is why this sort of pain is usual ly > reserved for the > >user-kernel interface. > > I don't think so. There is a subset of all DLLs > that can be classified as > "trusted"--they know to check arguments and the > operation is well-defined. > One might classify these as "friendly" DLLs and om it > any sort of checking. > For all others, the calling program can specify a > tighter degree of control > at the expense of more overhead. > > Cheers, > Chuck > How is the checking done? If it's purely by name then it can easily be switched for something much nastier without the user finding out. There used to be a fake "datatypes.library" for Workbench 3 on the Amiga. Instead of containing various datatypes functions/data (say for JPEG's, GIF's and IFF's etc.) it was a nasty virus. Personally I prefer Workbench 2 and have mine set up with my own custom icons and mouse pointers :) NB: For those that don't know, Workbench is the Amiga version of Windows - or should that be Windows is the PC version of Workbench :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sat Aug 19 17:36:00 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 15:36:00 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E6AC62.8090503@msu.edu> References: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> <44E6AC62.8090503@msu.edu> Message-ID: <44E79250.4090909@dakotacom.net> Josh Dersch wrote: > You may be interested in the Singularity project (a research project at > Microsoft, no less). It (gasp!) abstracts away pointers; the IL used > for the entire OS (a subset of the CLR), the OS interface, et. al. is > designed such that processes can be "proven" to be safe -- and all > process protection is done _without_ the use of any CPU hardware. > > http://research.microsoft.com/os/singularity/ This can only be possible if applications are *interpreted* AND the user is denied *any* means of accessing the underlying hardware (either by accidental or *intentional* means). It's like claiming "run Java/Inferno/etc. on your machine and you'll never have to worry about security issues" (unless, of course, someone boots the machine to a "non-Java" state!) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 19 17:40:27 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 18:40:27 -0400 Subject: Ancient Genrad system In-Reply-To: References: <200608190927.k7J9R0mi062278@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Looks like this contains tasty tidbits but it's too far away from me: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/genrad-2294-central-station_W0QQitemZ320017707724QQihZ011QQcategoryZ1504QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > At a minimum, it has some really deluxe 8" drives. Ancient? ANCIENT?!! Man, you just insulted every Gen Rad fan out there. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 19 17:40:27 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 18:40:27 -0400 Subject: Ancient Genrad system In-Reply-To: References: <200608190927.k7J9R0mi062278@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Looks like this contains tasty tidbits but it's too far away from me: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/genrad-2294-central-station_W0QQitemZ320017707724QQihZ011QQcategoryZ1504QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > At a minimum, it has some really deluxe 8" drives. Ancient? ANCIENT?!! Man, you just insulted every Gen Rad fan out there. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 19 17:41:53 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 18:41:53 -0400 Subject: iAPX432, was Re: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E77C51.7040704@e-bbes.com> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> <44E63C63.1000803@dakotacom.net> <200608181652230233.06E667E0@10.0.0.252> <44E77C51.7040704@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: > There were a lot of good ideas in the iAPX432, anybody knows, if they > actually were used on any OS ? AS/400. Properly. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Aug 19 17:44:28 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 10:44:28 +1200 Subject: Ancient Genrad system In-Reply-To: References: <200608190927.k7J9R0mi062278@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 8/20/06, Mark KAHRS wrote: > > Looks like this contains tasty tidbits but it's too far away from me: > http://cgi.ebay.com/genrad-2294-central-station_W0QQitemZ320017707724QQihZ011QQcategoryZ1504QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > At a minimum, it has some really deluxe 8" drives. Is that a PDP-11/44 I see in the lower right corner? -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 19 17:49:02 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 18:49:02 -0400 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: References: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: > No, it bloody well doesn't. Security has never magically appeared. You > can't give up pointers for lent and discover you've become hackerproof. Use an AS/400. Hackproof and crashproof. As Brad said, free yourself. The whole world is not Windows and Unix. -- Will From ray at arachelian.com Sat Aug 19 17:54:22 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 18:54:22 -0400 Subject: Anyone have an Apple Modem 1200 or 300 manual? In-Reply-To: <00ba01c6c3d0$b5c68ce0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <44E74724.2040706@arachelian.com> <005301c6c3b5$3fe42110$0b01a8c0@game> <44E74FD1.8080909@arachelian.com> <00ba01c6c3d0$b5c68ce0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <44E7969E.5020006@arachelian.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > I dug out my modem and manual and they are for model A9M0304, the auction > you showed is for A9M0301 so I do not know what the difference would be > between them. Since the auction is in a new box I would think the manual is > inside anyway. If the modem is like mine then there are 4 different cables > available for it (1) Mac Plus/IIgs, (2) Original Mac, (3) Apple II, II+, > IIe, III, Mac Xl, and finally (4) Apple IIc). My modem is supposed to be > 1200 BAUD also but I have never tried it Can you tell me what the manual says about AT commands? What would AT by itself return? Is it just "OK" and what are the return codes for ATI0, ATI1, ATI2 if they exist? From ray at arachelian.com Sat Aug 19 18:04:36 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 19:04:36 -0400 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E79250.4090909@dakotacom.net> References: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> <44E6AC62.8090503@msu.edu> <44E79250.4090909@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E79904.6040506@arachelian.com> Don wrote: > It's like claiming "run Java/Inferno/etc. on your machine and you'll > never have to worry about security issues" (unless, of course, > someone boots the machine to a "non-Java" state!) I'm somewhat unhappy with Java. It allows junior programmers to do silly things, like allocate lots of memory and not have to worry about it just because there's a garbage collector. In real life, what happens is that they write applications with hundreds, even thousands of threads that grab resources other than just memory such as JDBC connections, or file handles and never properly release them. Then, when those crash, they jump up and down claiming it must be something wrong with the OS because their application is perfect, and the crash must be some misconfiguration. Worse yet, it's difficult for a sysadmin to prove anything unless they allow for heap dumps, so you can't pinpoint the bug in their code to show them, that no, it is indeed their bugs that caused this. Luckily, we do have one or two more senior developers who actually bother to seek out the crappy code and are honest enough to point it out. If you write stuff like that in C or assembly it isn't masked by a GC, it's very clear that something is wrong, and a lot easier to locate bugs using truss, systrace, gdb, etc. The trouble isn't so much that java allows these things, but rather that it creates too many low paid junior programmers which get hired because they're cheaper than more experienced ones. i.e. hiring two junior guys instead of one more senior guy who at least knows what he's doing. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Aug 19 18:14:44 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 19:14:44 -0400 Subject: Anyone have an Apple Modem 1200 or 300 manual? References: <44E74724.2040706@arachelian.com> <005301c6c3b5$3fe42110$0b01a8c0@game> <44E74FD1.8080909@arachelian.com> <00ba01c6c3d0$b5c68ce0$0b01a8c0@game> <44E7969E.5020006@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <012101c6c3e5$41e74340$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Arachelian" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 6:54 PM Subject: Re: Anyone have an Apple Modem 1200 or 300 manual? > Teo Zenios wrote: > > I dug out my modem and manual and they are for model A9M0304, the auction > > you showed is for A9M0301 so I do not know what the difference would be > > between them. Since the auction is in a new box I would think the manual is > > inside anyway. If the modem is like mine then there are 4 different cables > > available for it (1) Mac Plus/IIgs, (2) Original Mac, (3) Apple II, II+, > > IIe, III, Mac Xl, and finally (4) Apple IIc). My modem is supposed to be > > 1200 BAUD also but I have never tried it > Can you tell me what the manual says about AT commands? What would AT > by itself return? Is it just "OK" and what are the return codes for > ATI0, ATI1, ATI2 if they exist? AT is the Attention command which you need to enter before other commands which are executed when you hit ENTER. I don't have mine connected but I would think an AT "space" ENTER would give an OK since nothing was asked of the modem. AT I0 would ask the modem for its product code, a 3 digit number (first 2 digits represent a particular model 12 in this case for 1200 Baud, the last digit would be the products revision number) AT I1 would ask the modem for a ROM checksum, used for testing the modem. AT I2 does not exist in the manual. Can I ask what you are trying to do? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 19 17:47:27 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 23:47:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" In-Reply-To: <44E63451.9070604@dakotacom.net> from "Don" at Aug 18, 6 02:42:41 pm Message-ID: > > Rob O'Donnell wrote: > > At 17:49 17/08/2006, Don wrote: > > > >> No idea what a Sinclair Flat Screen TV is... :-( > > > > This used a CRT that was scanned from the /side/ .. Depth wasn't much, > > but you needed a comparatively wide box... This was an improvement on > > the first Sinclair handheld TV I encountered which was a about the size > > and weight of a small housebrick, with a tiny screen on the end. > > Hmmm... "side" not "bottom" (like the watchman)? > Ah, OK. So the beam still scanned left-to right but did > so by (effectively) scanning "in to out" (back to front)? Yes, exactly. It's an electrostatically deflected CRT, BTW. The gun and deflection plates are relatively conventional, but mounted to one side (right IIRC) of the screen, with the axis of the gun paralell to the screen. The screen is on a metal target inside the envelope, you view it through the flat front face of the envelope which has transparent conductive traces on it to connect to the gun electrodes and to form an electrode in front of the sceen. Making that electrode -ve and the screen (metal target) +ve is what bends the beam onto the screen. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 19 17:51:00 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 23:51:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <44E63A79.6080107@dakotacom.net> from "Don" at Aug 18, 6 03:08:57 pm Message-ID: [CoCo 3 GIME] > >> I would assume the controller would exploit page mode references > >> (especially when dealing with sequential accesses like video). > > > > I am not sure, and the service manual (which I have) doesn't make any > > obvious reference to this. > > Any timing diagrams for DRAM access? You'd recognize the page mode > cycles by the lack of a 1:1 pairing of RAS with CAS. > Sure. But I think the only timing diagram is a 'representative' one showing a normal cycle. No idea if it does other types of cycle as well. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 19 17:55:44 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 23:55:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <8754c8d913870a19f12c1f910e05f374@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 18, 6 06:59:21 pm Message-ID: > heavier bypassing, but were smacked down at every turn, and "everybody > knows the PhDs know better!" *spit* That's news to me :-) De ARD From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 19 17:56:42 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 23:56:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <200608182313.k7INDLvT010164@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Aug 18, 6 04:13:21 pm Message-ID: > Next, someone else is going to ask, "what's sex?" Oh that's *easy* Sign EXtend if you're a 6809er or SEt X if you prefer the 1802 -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 19 18:04:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 00:04:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Archived a few PERQ games... In-Reply-To: <44E669C2.1070705@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Aug 18, 6 06:30:42 pm Message-ID: > > Thanks for all the info -- it'll definitely come in handy. I now have a > complete image of the PERQ's hard disk (available on my website as well) I am not sure how much of the disk structure you can directly get from the POS system calls. For example, there are 4 words of filesystem pointers in the sector _header_, that's why the DMA controller is somewhat complicated (it can be set up to transfer those pointers to one buffer and the sector data to another part of memory altogether). My guess is you can't directly get those header words using POS calls. It may not matter. From what I rmemberm the infromation is stored elsewhere too (probably in the file descriptor blocks). THe pointers in the headers are used for speed and to help recover the filesystem in the event of disk problems. > and I'm working on some software to allow me to traverse the > partitions/filesystems in the image to extract software. Figure that > could come in handy at some point. My experience of the POS documentation is that (a) it was written to refresh the memory of somebody who already knew the machine inside out and (b) important information is missing -- things like the _exact_ meaning of the bits in some descriptor word, etc. Do you have the POS source code? I thin I hace most of the Pascal (not microcode, though) sources for one version. > > I wish modern hard drives lasted as long as this thing has -- 25+ years > old and only a handful of bad sectors... Which drive do you have? The 14" SA4000 unit used in the 1 and 1a seems to suffer from drive belt trouble and little else. The 8" Micropolis 1203 used in the 2T1 has problems with the servo analogue electronics -- I've had to replace op-amps and the power amplifier chip in those. The 5.25" units used in the 2T2 and 2T4 suffer from the same problems as PC hard drives of the time, because that's what they are :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 19 18:09:56 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 00:09:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: TRS-80 Model II In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Aug 19, 6 10:08:37 am Message-ID: > > On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > > I assume this is a schematic in the technical reference or service manual... > > Yes. > > > Be careful, In the case of the M3 (a machine which I _have_ worked on), > > the PSU was bought-in from ASTEC. ASTEC did not supply (or allow to be > > publisehd?) their schematics, so it appears somebody at Radio Shack > > reverse-enegineered the board to provide a schematic for the manual. And > > Hmm, the power supply in the M2 was from ASTEC, too. But the technical > reference manual has an own chapter for the PSU with some bits of > information on how it works, but no parts list... Sounds like the Model 3 manual then. Take that information with a pinch of NaCl -- much of it is fine, but do check it. And really check the schematic against the board (mind you, IIRC, some of the errors on the M3 PSU schematic were obvious to anyone who knew how an SMPSU should work). > > > That said, I've found the 2SD1942 to be a good 'universal' chopper in > > most small single-stage SMPSUs. > > Does it come in a TO-3 case? The BU208(-A/-D) should be a good I may have mis-rememebred that number. Look for 2SC1942 as well. One of those is a HV switching transsitor in a TO3 case. > replacement, too. Anyway, either it works or it doesn't, there's not much > to lose here. Of course the "repaired" PSU should first be tested with a Exceprt your nerves when the replacement goes short-circuit (either due to another fualt in the PSU, or because it's not a suitable part), shorts out the mains and causes other bits (at least the fuse) to explode. > "safe" load (power resistors) to check the output voltages. Oh yes. After repairing a PSU, it is _essential_ to check it on dummy load. It's far too easy to make a mistake that will send the output voltages sky-high. -tony From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Aug 19 19:22:43 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 17:22:43 -0700 Subject: iAPX432, was Re: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> <44E63C63.1000803@dakotacom.net> <200608181652230233.06E667E0@10.0.0.252> <44E77C51.7040704@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <44E7AB53.8070102@msm.umr.edu> William Donzelli wrote: >> There were a lot of good ideas in the iAPX432, anybody knows, if they >> actually were used on any OS ? > > > AS/400. Properly. > can you elaborate, or point to a web page? thanks From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 19 19:36:23 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 20:36:23 -0400 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95cbcb64698e80a840fe9fb6ba4981c6@neurotica.com> On Aug 19, 2006, at 6:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> heavier bypassing, but were smacked down at every turn, and "everybody >> knows the PhDs know better!" *spit* > > That's news to me :-) My sentiments exactly. Since then, I've cleaned up the impractical, impossible messes of several of 'em. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 19 21:06:33 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 22:06:33 -0400 Subject: iAPX432, was Re: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E7AB53.8070102@msm.umr.edu> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> <44E63C63.1000803@dakotacom.net> <200608181652230233.06E667E0@10.0.0.252> <44E77C51.7040704@e-bbes.com> <44E7AB53.8070102@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: > > AS/400. Properly. > > > can you elaborate, or point to a web page? thanks Google around for info on AS/400 architecture basics (although the nitty gritty details will not be found, as IBM keeps those to themselves). -- Will From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Aug 19 23:30:43 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 00:30:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: D subminiture connectors Re: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608200433.AAA02626@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > In the case of D-series connectors, I don't think it's possible to > fit female contacts to a -P shell or male contacts to a -S shell. Well, it's not possible in the sense that D-shell connectors are not made so as to support that. But I can't see any reason it couldn't be done if some connector maker cared to bother. (The male-contact side of it would be rather vulnerable to bent pins, since the pins would no longer have a shell to protect them, so it might be stupid - but it could be done.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Aug 19 23:33:24 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 00:33:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: References: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200608200437.AAA02650@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> If the userland application programming language didn't have >> pointers and had dynamic type checking you might find the whole >> problem just goes away. > No, it bloody well doesn't. Actually, it does, or at least can. You do have to get your head out of the "what the library provides is raw machine code" mindset before you can understand how, though. >> jump up a few levels. abstraction is your friend. > Abstraction does not stop someone from using the raw capabilities of > the machine. Again, it can. All you need to do is make sure that the code the library provides is handed to the p-code engine (or moral equivalent) rather than directly to the processor. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 20 00:49:47 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 22:49:47 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608200437.AAA02650@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200608200437.AAA02650@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44E7F7FA.7060708@dakotacom.net> der Mouse wrote: >>> If the userland application programming language didn't have >>> pointers and had dynamic type checking you might find the whole >>> problem just goes away. >> No, it bloody well doesn't. > > Actually, it does, or at least can. You do have to get your head out > of the "what the library provides is raw machine code" mindset before > you can understand how, though. > >>> jump up a few levels. abstraction is your friend. >> Abstraction does not stop someone from using the raw capabilities of >> the machine. > > Again, it can. All you need to do is make sure that the code the > library provides is handed to the p-code engine (or moral equivalent) > rather than directly to the processor. And you have to ensure that there is *no* way the user can execute code *before* your interpreter/virtual machine/etc. gains control of the CPU. I.e., at the very least, you need physical control over the machine. This isnt possible in all cases (e.g., a consumer device!) From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sun Aug 20 01:09:57 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 23:09:57 -0700 Subject: 11/34 failing trap test In-Reply-To: <10608191737.ZM10516@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> References: <10608191737.ZM10516@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <44E7FCB5.3050705@mindspring.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Aug 19 2006, 9:38, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > >> I got the 11/34 up and running, and I loaded XXDP. It fails the trap >> test. The instructions state you should examine the stack pointer >> (777706) which shows it to be a value of 000470. This is supposed to >> tell you the address of the Program Counter, right? So I load address >> 470, and the value is 000330. What instruction is failing? Am I >> reading this right? > > Yes, the stack pointer points to the last address used on the stack, > and that will be the value of the PC when it called the error > subroutine, or to put it another way, the address of the next > instruction to be executed had the JSR not been taken. It's failing at > whatever test was just before location 330 -- which is surprisingly > low. You'd need to look at the listing to see what the test was. > The trap test typically does a halt-on-failure, so at what address does your CPU halt? After knowing the halt address (and the failed test) the SP and what is on the stack may or may not be useful data. BTW the listing of this diagnostic is online at: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/listings/AC-8045D-MC_CFKABD0-1134-Traps-Tst_Apr77.pdf in case you already didn't know this. If indeed the CPU did halt at 330 this is in the vector space which is typically populated with .+2/halt word pairs (a 'trapcatcher' in DEC terms). Don North From derschjo at msu.edu Sat Aug 19 17:48:42 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 15:48:42 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E79250.4090909@dakotacom.net> References: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> <44E6AC62.8090503@msu.edu> <44E79250.4090909@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E7954A.6070905@msu.edu> Don wrote: > Josh Dersch wrote: >> You may be interested in the Singularity project (a research project >> at Microsoft, no less). It (gasp!) abstracts away pointers; the IL >> used for the entire OS (a subset of the CLR), the OS interface, et. >> al. is designed such that processes can be "proven" to be safe -- and >> all process protection is done _without_ the use of any CPU hardware. >> >> http://research.microsoft.com/os/singularity/ > > This can only be possible if applications are *interpreted* > AND the user is denied *any* means of accessing the underlying > hardware (either by accidental or *intentional* means). > > It's like claiming "run Java/Inferno/etc. on your machine and you'll > never have to worry about security issues" (unless, of course, > someone boots the machine to a "non-Java" state!) > > Or if you, for example, create a CPU that executes IL natively. See LispMs from the late 70s/early 80s for a different example of this. There's no reason a modern equivalent couldn't be made. In addition, the applications on Singularity (or Java/.NET today) are not *interpreted*. They're jitted, which is far more performant. On typical PC hardware, yes, for an OS like this there needs to be an abstraction layer that lies between the "dangerous" physical hardware and the safe IL domain; this abstraction layer can be made very small and as such can be rigorously debugged. This abstraction layer _completely_ prevents access to the underlying hardware, or other application's process spaces. As far as "booting the machine to a "non-Java" state... if you (as an evil haX0r) have physical access to the hardware and can boot the machine to a different OS, then yes, all bets are off... I'm not quite sure what the point of that argument is. Josh From derschjo at msu.edu Sat Aug 19 18:19:01 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 16:19:01 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E79904.6040506@arachelian.com> References: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> <44E6AC62.8090503@msu.edu> <44E79250.4090909@dakotacom.net> <44E79904.6040506@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44E79C65.4070102@msu.edu> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Don wrote: > >> It's like claiming "run Java/Inferno/etc. on your machine and you'll >> never have to worry about security issues" (unless, of course, >> someone boots the machine to a "non-Java" state!) >> > I'm somewhat unhappy with Java. It allows junior programmers to do > silly things, like allocate lots of memory and not have to worry about > it just because there's a garbage collector. In real life, what happens > is that they write applications with hundreds, even thousands of threads > that grab resources other than just memory such as JDBC connections, or > file handles and never properly release them. > > Then, when those crash, they jump up and down claiming it must be > something wrong with the OS because their application is perfect, and > the crash must be some misconfiguration. > > Worse yet, it's difficult for a sysadmin to prove anything unless they > allow for heap dumps, so you can't pinpoint the bug in their code to > show them, that no, it is indeed their bugs that caused this. > > Luckily, we do have one or two more senior developers who actually > bother to seek out the crappy code and are honest enough to point it out. > > If you write stuff like that in C or assembly it isn't masked by a GC, > it's very clear that something is wrong, and a lot easier to locate bugs > using truss, systrace, gdb, etc. > > The trouble isn't so much that java allows these things, but rather that > it creates too many low paid junior programmers which get hired because > they're cheaper than more experienced ones. i.e. hiring two junior guys > instead of one more senior guy who at least knows what he's doing. > > You're actually suggesting writing multithreaded, JDBC connection code in raw assembly because it's more obvious when you've screwed up? Not sure I follow the reasoning (I'd suggest hiring more experienced Java coders), but more power to you on that effort :). I hear this argument all the time (used to be about Visual BASIC) and while I agree that making coding easier lowers the barrier to entry to our "elite" club of the high UNIX priesthood, I don't think that it's a valid argument to blame the language rather than the people involved. Josh From derschjo at msu.edu Sat Aug 19 19:05:14 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 17:05:14 -0700 Subject: Archived a few PERQ games... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E7A73A.90106@msu.edu> Tony Duell wrote: > I am not sure how much of the disk structure you can directly get from > the POS system calls. For example, there are 4 words of filesystem > pointers in the sector _header_, that's why the DMA controller is > somewhat complicated (it can be set up to transfer those pointers to one > buffer and the sector data to another part of memory altogether). My > guess is you can't directly get those header words using POS calls. > > It may not matter. From what I rmemberm the infromation is stored > elsewhere too (probably in the file descriptor blocks). THe pointers in > the headers are used for speed and to help recover the filesystem in the > event of disk problems. Yes, I was wondering about this as well. The POS documentation mentions this header information as being present on disk but doesn't describe it in detail. The UnitIO "DiagRead" command returns an 8-word block of header data on a block read -- I don't know if this has any relationship with the physical bits on the disk; but just in case I made sure to copy those along with the 256 words of actual sector data. At any rate, the header data doesn't appear to be necessary for parsing the directory structure; I've written another quick and dirty utility (on the PC this time) to read in the disk image and dump the directory structure and files to disk without too many hairy issues. (The utility and all the files on the disk are now on my website at http://yahozna.dhs.org/computers/software/PERQ). Nothing too incredibly exciting on the disk, but it's nice to have it archived for posterity. > Do you have the POS source code? I thin I hace most of the Pascal (not > microcode, though) sources for one version. > I do not -- what I have on the PERQ is the bare minimum necessary to compile and link pascal programs. > Which drive do you have? The 14" SA4000 unit used in the 1 and 1a seems > to suffer from drive belt trouble and little else. The 8" Micropolis 1203 > used in the 2T1 has problems with the servo analogue electronics -- I've > had to replace op-amps and the power amplifier chip in those. The 5.25" > units used in the 2T2 and 2T4 suffer from the same problems as PC hard > drives of the time, because that's what they are :-) > > I have the 14" SA4000 drive. The belt had a problem where it'd immediately slip off at power-on. It wasn't loose at all, but the inside of the belt was worn smooth. For the time being, I've turned the belt inside out and I haven't had any problems since. One quick question: Any ideas what digitizer pucks are compatible with the BitPadOne? My PERQ came with a very very crude home-made puck (http://yahozna.dhs.org/computers/perq/photos/digitizer-small.JPG). It just barely works (the cursor jumps all over) and it's falling apart. I'd love to replace this with something more authentic. Or at least something that works correctly. Now to start hacking away at that emulator... :) Thanks again, Josh From elf at ucsd.edu Sun Aug 20 01:42:23 2006 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric F.) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 23:42:23 -0700 Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <200608191700.k7JH0312066325@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608191700.k7JH0312066325@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060819234020.02179888@ucsd.edu> Previously posted: >> Next, someone else is going to ask, "what's sex?" > Other than the 6809 did any other computers have the memonic > SEX - Sign EXtend? SDS/XDS and their Sigma 7 computer (and possibly ran on some of their other Sigma series computers?) had a hardware diagnostic program called SEX -- which was short for System EXerciser. -eric From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 20 02:32:30 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 00:32:30 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E7954A.6070905@msu.edu> References: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> <44E6AC62.8090503@msu.edu> <44E79250.4090909@dakotacom.net> <44E7954A.6070905@msu.edu> Message-ID: <44E8100E.6090703@dakotacom.net> Josh Dersch wrote: > Don wrote: >> Josh Dersch wrote: >>> You may be interested in the Singularity project (a research project >>> at Microsoft, no less). It (gasp!) abstracts away pointers; the IL >>> used for the entire OS (a subset of the CLR), the OS interface, et. >>> al. is designed such that processes can be "proven" to be safe -- and >>> all process protection is done _without_ the use of any CPU hardware. >>> >>> http://research.microsoft.com/os/singularity/ >> >> This can only be possible if applications are *interpreted* >> AND the user is denied *any* means of accessing the underlying >> hardware (either by accidental or *intentional* means). >> >> It's like claiming "run Java/Inferno/etc. on your machine and you'll >> never have to worry about security issues" (unless, of course, >> someone boots the machine to a "non-Java" state!) > > Or if you, for example, create a CPU that executes IL natively. See > LispMs from the late 70s/early 80s for a different example of this. > There's no reason a modern equivalent couldn't be made. Of course. > In addition, the applications on Singularity (or Java/.NET today) are > not *interpreted*. They're jitted, which is far more performant. But the intent was to avoid the "performance penalties" of using hardware mechanisms. So, (in existing hardware) you trade the use of those facilities for the overhead of an interpreter (regardless of what you want to call it) > On typical PC hardware, yes, for an OS like this there needs to be an > abstraction layer that lies between the "dangerous" physical hardware > and the safe IL domain; this abstraction layer can be made very small > and as such can be rigorously debugged. This abstraction layer > _completely_ prevents access to the underlying hardware, or other > application's process spaces. > > As far as "booting the machine to a "non-Java" state... if you (as an > evil haX0r) have physical access to the hardware and can boot the > machine to a different OS, then yes, all bets are off... I'm not quite > sure what the point of that argument is. Because most machines nowadays are in the hands of people who aren't savvy enough to understand these issues. I.e. you can't have physical security since there is nothing preventing a user (*owner*) from circumventing this key step knowingly or unknowingly. E.g., any sort of removable media that can be passed control of the processor outside (i.e., before) the scope of your VM leaves the system vulnerable. Hence the reason many PC's are configured without (or with *disabled*) floppy and/or CD-ROM drives in business environments. Getting a robust system into a consumer's hands is considerably harder than one sitting in a machine room :> From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Aug 20 02:54:42 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 00:54:42 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E8100E.6090703@dakotacom.net> References: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> <44E6AC62.8090503@msu.edu> <44E79250.4090909@dakotacom.net> <44E7954A.6070905@msu.edu> <44E8100E.6090703@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E81542.1010509@msu.edu> > But the intent was to avoid the "performance penalties" > of using hardware mechanisms. So, (in existing hardware) > you trade the use of those facilities for the overhead of > an interpreter (regardless of what you want to call it) Again, it's not an interpreter, and I'm not just making up a fancy name for one. Jitting compiles the code at runtime, and in many cases can optimze the code better than a standard compiler can. In the case of Singularity, performance is not a primary goal -- it's a research project. But Java and .NET have pretty decent performance when compared to "native" C/C++ code. But I don't really want to start a flamewar about this... it's one of those endlessly debatable topics :). I was not intending to suggest that Singularity would avoid any performance penalty -- I was originally responding to a poster who claimed that abstracting pointers away, etc. in the name of security was not possible -- I posited Singularity as an example of an OS that has done this very thing. > Because most machines nowadays are in the hands of people who > aren't savvy enough to understand these issues. I.e. you can't > have physical security since there is nothing preventing a > user (*owner*) from circumventing this key step knowingly or > unknowingly. > > E.g., any sort of removable media that can be passed control > of the processor outside (i.e., before) the scope of your VM > leaves the system vulnerable. Hence the reason many PC's > are configured without (or with *disabled*) floppy and/or CD-ROM > drives in business environments. > > Getting a robust system into a consumer's hands is considerably > harder than one sitting in a machine room :> Well, I agree that this is an attack vector. But I believe it's picking nits; the primary source of "infection" on your average user's PC are either 1) exploiting the code in the OS (buffer overrun, etc.) or 2) Lame security in the OSes involved (running as root/admin as default, etc.) It'd be quite a bit more difficult for malware/viruses/trojans to get onto a user's PC and propagate themselves if it required physical means to do so (i.e. an e-mail that says "Hey! Please burn this software to a CD, put the CD in your drive and reboot from it! It'll be cool!... trust me.") There's only so much you can do, in the end -- users will always find ways to screw up their computers. Doesn't mean it's not worth researching new strategies for security elsewhere. Josh From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Aug 20 03:26:43 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 09:26:43 +0100 Subject: It is a great day today (bought a vax 3800) In-Reply-To: References: <44E7714A.2060707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44E81CC3.5040507@gjcp.net> 9000 VAX wrote: > On 8/19/06, woodelf wrote: >> >> >> Better buy a 3rd VAX, to keep the floor clean from all the >> dirt you tracked in hauling your prize home. :) > > > That's the English's product. We don't see many here. > > vax, 9000 Britain != England. We have them here too. Gordon. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 20 05:05:53 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 10:05:53 +0000 Subject: D subminiture connectors Re: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <200608181818.44955.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608171703.NAA10423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608181535.09623.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608182026.QAA03104@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608181818.44955.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44E83401.3030200@yahoo.co.uk> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> DD is a much larger size, supporting 50 pins. Some of the older Sun >> equipment uses this for SCSI, which is the only use I know it from. > > I did run across those on the boards I was recently wondering about in here. > They're the only ones I know of (excepting "VGA" sockets) that use three rows > of pins. There's a DA-26 around - it's like a DA-15 "Ethernet AUI" connector, but with three rows of high-density pins. NCD 88k X terms used them for video out. The only other place I immediately remember seeing them is on some obscure network comms gear for communication between modules. >> I also don't know whether there are any other sizes with names. Other >> sizes, though rare, do exist; for example, NeXT used a D-shell >> connector of an odd size, with something like 19 pins, to drive their >> greyscale video displays. > > It's also my understanding that the Atari ST (?) used an oddball of that sort, > maybe 23 pins? The Amiga certainly did - it was common practice to hack a readily-available DB-25 connector so that it would fit :-) I seem to recall that HP used a D-shell connector with only three larger round pins for video on some of their stuff (possibly DE sized, but I have a feeling it might be slightly larger). Then of course Sun and SGI favoured the 13w3 connectors for video, in a DB shell size. Apollo used another oddball D-type connector for their token ring networking - can't quite recall the size of that one. Wasn't it something like a DA shell but with only five or so 'normal' pins and a pair of larger round pins? cheers Jules From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun Aug 20 05:03:56 2006 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 11:03:56 +0100 Subject: IBM 836 Keypunch In-Reply-To: <200608200627.k7K6RlFm077234@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608200627.k7K6RlFm077234@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <2D241C4D-17C4-46DB-A3BE-981FACAAD4E6@microspot.co.uk> I don't suppose anyone can help, but I'll ask anyway. I have an IBM 836 Keypunch, which is similar to an 026 keypunch but has a patch panel in a pedestal to the left of the users knees. It also has three 40 pin connectors on the back panel. Does anyone know the capabilities of these? Where can I get matching plugs? The logic levels are presumably suitable for the relay logic within, but any idea what actual voltages and amperages are? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 20 07:30:19 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 12:30:19 +0000 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions Message-ID: <44E855DB.5090709@yahoo.co.uk> I've got a ZX80 here (issue 2A) which has a keyboard overlay attached that looks very like that of a Sinclair ZX81. The ROM in the machine is dated week 16 of 1981, and carries the marking C77018, and a 1981 copyright. Is this a machine that's been subjected to a ZX81 upgrade kit or something? I wasn't aware that such a thing existed. Now, the keyboard overlay's actually removable, revealing a pristine original ZX80 legend underneath. However, two black press-fittings attach it to the PCB at the corners of the front edge - are these press fittings there on all ZX80s, or have these been added in order to secure the overlay in place? The machine came with a "ZX 16K RAM" module (red lettering) which I assume is later and more in keeping with a ZX81? Separately though I do have a module marked as "ZX80 16K Byte RAM Pack" (white lettering). Question is, are they interchangeable and the lettering was altered - or does the ZX80 variant map memory to a different location than the later red-lettered type? (I'm assuming that the expansion bus pinouts didn't change between ZX80 and the later machines!) I've also got a ROM marked as: "ROM contents copyright 1980 Sinclair Research Ltd" - is this the original ZX80 ROM (and the ROM in the machine is an upgrade), or is this likely something else entirely? Curiously there are a few stray fibres glued to the underside of the PCB - presumably these are a left-over of cheap PCB manufacture and Sinclair's horrible quality control! :-) cheers Jules -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Sun Aug 20 06:59:20 2006 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 12:59:20 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <44E855DB.5090709@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44E855DB.5090709@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20060820124256.050a4ed8@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> At 13:30 20/08/2006, Jules Richardson wrote: >Is this a machine that's been subjected to a >ZX81 upgrade kit or something? I wasn't aware that such a thing existed. Yes. Keyboard overlay and new ROM was common about the time the ZX81 came out, for all those who had just stumped up ?100 for the ZX80 (there was only a year between them..) I have a ZX80 with ZX81 ROM but sans overlay... (It actually is a ROM for a ZX81, and works fine with the exception of 'SLOW' (i.e., no flicker) mode. The hardware is basically the same. (And no ZX80 ROM that I can find..) >Now, the keyboard overlay's actually removable, >revealing a pristine original ZX80 legend >underneath. However, two black press-fittings >attach it to the PCB at the corners of the front >edge - are these press fittings there on all >ZX80s, or have these been added in order to secure the overlay in place? Without getting mine out and checking, ISTR that the ZX80 came with a plastic push-plug thingy at each case corner to hold it all together. If you have just just this, going through the corner of the keyboard PCB and locking it to the case underneath, then it's probably original. >The machine came with a "ZX 16K RAM" module (red >lettering) which I assume is later and more in >keeping with a ZX81? Separately though I do have >a module marked as "ZX80 16K Byte RAM Pack" >(white lettering). Question is, are they >interchangeable and the lettering was altered - >or does the ZX80 variant map memory to a >different location than the later red-lettered >type? (I'm assuming that the expansion bus >pinouts didn't change between ZX80 and the later machines!) ZX RAM packs were completely interchangeable, the pinout, and the memory allocations were the same. I think ROM mapped to 0-16K, RAM at 16K+ The "original" RAM pack for the ZX80 was a thin affair in the same construction (plastic covers either side of a small PCB with push pins to hold together) which held up to six socketed 2114's. You could buy in various memory configurations, and add the extra 1K, 2K or 3K as required yourself. The 16K RAM packs I think only came out at the time of with ZX81 and were dynamic RAM. (The originals were all static.) I think Sinclair branded 'ZX80' (rather than ZX or ZX81) packs are quite rare, as the ZX81 ones worked just fine. There were lots of third party RAM packs aimed at the ZX81. - I had a 32K one, plus an extra ROM board that gave me lots of fancy alternate graphic characters.. (mapped to the 8K-16K region, in place of a mirror of the system ROM) >I've also got a ROM marked as: "ROM contents >copyright 1980 Sinclair Research Ltd" - is this >the original ZX80 ROM (and the ROM in the >machine is an upgrade), or is this likely something else entirely? Highly likely that it's the original ZX80 ROM ... try it! >Curiously there are a few stray fibres glued to >the underside of the PCB - presumably these are >a left-over of cheap PCB manufacture and >Sinclair's horrible quality control! :-) no idea; never had mine apart that far .. It may be whomever upgraded it had it apart at one point too, and these got picked up then? Rob From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 20 09:24:48 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 14:24:48 +0000 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060820124256.050a4ed8@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> References: <44E855DB.5090709@yahoo.co.uk> <7.0.1.0.0.20060820124256.050a4ed8@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <44E870B0.5000404@yahoo.co.uk> Rob O'Donnell wrote: > At 13:30 20/08/2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > > >> Is this a machine that's been subjected to a ZX81 upgrade kit or >> something? I wasn't aware that such a thing existed. > > Yes. Keyboard overlay and new ROM was common about the time the ZX81 > came out, for all those who had just stumped up ?100 for the ZX80 (there > was only a year between them..) Thanks - not something I'd heard about before. I've had a couple of ZX81s in the past (later ones, issue 3 and 5 I think) but never had a real look at a ZX80 before. >> Now, the keyboard overlay's actually removable, revealing a pristine >> original ZX80 legend underneath. However, two black press-fittings >> attach it to the PCB at the corners of the front edge - are these >> press fittings there on all ZX80s, or have these been added in order >> to secure the overlay in place? > > Without getting mine out and checking, ISTR that the ZX80 came with a > plastic push-plug thingy at each case corner to hold it all together. > If you have just just this, going through the corner of the keyboard PCB > and locking it to the case underneath, then it's probably original. Yep, there are five larger white plastic clips holding the case together, then two smaller black ones for the overlay - it does indeed look like the PCB was pre-drilled for these, so I assume that they're present even on an ZX80 without an overlay. I was just thinking that I'd rather take the machine back to ZX80 spec, so not having extra holes drilled in things as part of the upgrade is a bonus :-) > ZX RAM packs were completely interchangeable, the pinout, and the memory > allocations were the same. That's good to hear! > The 16K RAM packs I think only came out at the time of with ZX81 and > were dynamic RAM. (The originals were all static.) I think Sinclair > branded 'ZX80' (rather than ZX or ZX81) packs are quite rare, as the > ZX81 ones worked just fine. Interesting. Just whipped the lid off this one and it is DRAM as you say (8 x 4116 ICs). >> I've also got a ROM marked as: "ROM contents copyright 1980 Sinclair >> Research Ltd" - is this the original ZX80 ROM (and the ROM in the >> machine is an upgrade), or is this likely something else entirely? > > Highly likely that it's the original ZX80 ROM ... try it! :-) It does seem to be the original - BASIC keywords are mapped to the ZX80 keyboard layout, whereas with the other ROM they map to the slightly different layout of the upgrade overlay. >> Curiously there are a few stray fibres glued to the underside of the >> PCB - presumably these are a left-over of cheap PCB manufacture and >> Sinclair's horrible quality control! :-) > > no idea; never had mine apart that far .. It may be whomever upgraded > it had it apart at one point too, and these got picked up then? They look more glued 'into' the PCB though. At first I thought it was just stray junk and was about to clean them off - but if it was like that from the factory I'll leave them as-is :-) That machine works, anyway, after a fashion - but I can't get a nice clear picture on the couple of TVs that I'd tried so far, so it's possible that there's a fault in the modulator somewhere. But it's evidently OK otherwise and doing things as expected... (I *think* I've got a spare UM1233 somewhere if I can find it, in which case it'll be easy to swap it in and try it) Out of interest, anyone know how many ZX80s were sold as kits? This one's a factory-built one, complete with original ZX80 PSU. The heatsink for the regulator gets pretty hot, and that's even without the RAM pack plugged in... cheers Jules From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Aug 20 08:43:34 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 08:43:34 -0500 Subject: ISO: Sony "WATCHman" In-Reply-To: <20060819074557.676E3BA4157@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <44E3A2F4.8@dakotacom.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060816184022.05885458@mail> <44E3CBA6.7010008@dakotacom.net> <1155798009.12871.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44E49E28.8000507@dakotacom.net> <7.0.1.0.0.20060817215228.035e0e90@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> <20060817235814.6F5E9BA4154@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <028001c6c329$6113c980$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44E66755.80907@dakotacom.net> <20060819074557.676E3BA4157@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060820084059.05069a08@mail> At 02:45 AM 8/19/2006, Tim Shoppa wrote: >There have been various items sold under the "Watchman" name over the >years, and I seem to recall some company selling a small portable videodisc >player (using a tiny disc and a completely incompatible format) in >the late 90's/early 2000's that seems to have faded into obscurity. >Was this Sony maybe? In any event at that point in time the display >technology was not CRT but some kind of LCD. I thought he was talking about the late-80s / early-90s item from Sony that played 8mm video tapes. About the size of a thick paperback book, with a 2-3 inch color LCD (then novel) it had a TV tuner and nice in/out jacks, so it was popular among videographers. There are several other disc-based kid's players. One out now is called "VideoNow". My son picked one up recently for $10 from one of his friend. - John From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Aug 20 08:51:06 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 09:51:06 -0400 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <44E870B0.5000404@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44E855DB.5090709@yahoo.co.uk> <7.0.1.0.0.20060820124256.050a4ed8@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> <44E870B0.5000404@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20060820135106.238FDBA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Out of interest, anyone know how many ZX80s were sold as kits? This one's a > factory-built one, complete with original ZX80 PSU. The heatsink for the > regulator gets pretty hot, and that's even without the RAM pack plugged in... Mine was sold as a kit, but came assembled! They had run out of kits and giving those who had paid for a kit the pre-assembled ones. I was slightly disappointed. This was at the end of the ZX80 era right before the ZX81. I did a google search and looked on Wikipedia but some of the details there do NOT match my memory. They say there were only 50,000 ZX80's sold and this seems to be a ridiculously low number for a mass-market machine sold through many different channels. They say that the Sinclair brand was only in the UK and this does not match my experience of having bought one in the US (or the ads in 1980 Radio-Electronics). But this was 26 years ago, so my memory isn't exactly sharp either! The Wikipedia article might make sense if one assumes that it is only talking about the UK and ignoring sales in the rest of the world. My guesstimate, backed up by no FACTS at all but mostly on the machines extreme cheapness and how many were eventually stacked up on store shelves (there came to be a real glut of them after the successors hit the market and they were being sold at local drugstores for circa $50 when marked down), is that counting the US market, ZX80 sales were in the low hundreds of thousands and that kits might have been 10 or 20 percent of the total. Tim. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 20 09:04:43 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 07:04:43 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E81542.1010509@msu.edu> References: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> <44E6AC62.8090503@msu.edu> <44E79250.4090909@dakotacom.net> <44E7954A.6070905@msu.edu> <44E8100E.6090703@dakotacom.net> <44E81542.1010509@msu.edu> Message-ID: <44E86BFB.2080201@dakotacom.net> Josh Dersch wrote: > > I was not intending to suggest that Singularity would avoid any Sorry, I was responding to the Singularity *literature* (though *through* you :>) > performance penalty -- I was originally responding to a poster who > claimed that abstracting pointers away, etc. in the name of security was > not possible -- I posited Singularity as an example of an OS that has > done this very thing. > >> Because most machines nowadays are in the hands of people who >> aren't savvy enough to understand these issues. I.e. you can't >> have physical security since there is nothing preventing a >> user (*owner*) from circumventing this key step knowingly or >> unknowingly. >> >> E.g., any sort of removable media that can be passed control >> of the processor outside (i.e., before) the scope of your VM >> leaves the system vulnerable. Hence the reason many PC's >> are configured without (or with *disabled*) floppy and/or CD-ROM >> drives in business environments. >> >> Getting a robust system into a consumer's hands is considerably >> harder than one sitting in a machine room :> > Well, I agree that this is an attack vector. But I believe it's picking > nits; the primary source of "infection" on your average user's PC are > either 1) exploiting the code in the OS (buffer overrun, etc.) or 2) > Lame security in the OSes involved (running as root/admin as default, Yes, but the latter is effectively the case for PC users nowadays. Even if they chose not to run as "Administrator" 24/7, they still are TOLD to run as Administrator when installing software. > etc.) It'd be quite a bit more difficult for malware/viruses/trojans to > get onto a user's PC and propagate themselves if it required physical > means to do so (i.e. an e-mail that says "Hey! Please burn this software > to a CD, put the CD in your drive and reboot from it! It'll be cool!... Yes, but not all "infections" are intentional. I.e. installing buggy code is still buggy code. Even if the manufacturer didn't intend it to be so. > trust me.") There's only so much you can do, in the end -- users will > always find ways to screw up their computers. Doesn't mean it's not > worth researching new strategies for security elsewhere. Of course! As I said in a previous post, this is something near and dear to me as I have to build products that are potentially compromised by these avenues. Each time you raise the bar, "clever" (??) users find some other stupid thing to do that compromises the measures you've taken to maintain system integrity. I pity those folks who design "PC-based" products! (it's just too easy for users to think "Oh, this is a PC! I can ________ " From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 20 09:24:36 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 09:24:36 -0500 Subject: Archived a few PERQ games... Message-ID: >> Do you have the POS source code? I thin I hace most of the Pascal (not >> microcode, though) sources for one version. >> >I do not several different revisions of the sources are available as floppy images on http://bitsavers.org/bits/PERQ/floppy/pos From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 20 10:34:36 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 15:34:36 +0000 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <20060820135106.238FDBA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <44E855DB.5090709@yahoo.co.uk> <7.0.1.0.0.20060820124256.050a4ed8@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> <44E870B0.5000404@yahoo.co.uk> <20060820135106.238FDBA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <44E8810C.2000607@yahoo.co.uk> Tim Shoppa wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> Out of interest, anyone know how many ZX80s were sold as kits? This one's a >> factory-built one, complete with original ZX80 PSU. The heatsink for the >> regulator gets pretty hot, and that's even without the RAM pack plugged in... > > Mine was sold as a kit, but came assembled! They had run out of kits > and giving those who had paid for a kit the pre-assembled ones. I was > slightly disappointed. This was at the end of the ZX80 era right before > the ZX81. That is a shame - I imagine to a lot of people the aim was the fun in assembling a kit, rather than the cost saving... > I did a google search and looked on Wikipedia but some of the details > there do NOT match my memory. They say there were only 50,000 ZX80's sold > and this seems to be a ridiculously low number for a mass-market > machine sold through many different channels. I think you're right and that only applies to UK machines; other sites I've seen suggest that the total number produced and sold worldwide was over 100,000. It's interesting how rare they seem to be considering those sales figures - I mean there are plenty of other machines around where sales were only a fraction of that and yet there's still a healthy number in private hands. cheers Jules -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 20 09:45:45 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 07:45:45 -0700 Subject: data sheet for com5025 In-Reply-To: <44E8810C.2000607@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: Hi Does anyone have a pointer to a data sheet for a com5025? I believe it to be a synchronous serial chip but I've not found much on the web. I think it is compatable with a 2652 but the only thing I can find on that is a 16 bit part from Philips. I don't think this is a 16 bit appliction. Thanks Dwight From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 20 10:56:44 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 11:56:44 -0400 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E79904.6040506@arachelian.com> References: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> <44E6AC62.8090503@msu.edu> <44E79250.4090909@dakotacom.net> <44E79904.6040506@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <18cc1a691129eccf2c33b9e2ab05c21a@neurotica.com> On Aug 19, 2006, at 7:04 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > I'm somewhat unhappy with Java. It allows junior programmers to do > silly things, like allocate lots of memory and not have to worry about > it just because there's a garbage collector. In real life, what > happens > is that they write applications with hundreds, even thousands of > threads > that grab resources other than just memory such as JDBC connections, or > file handles and never properly release them. ... > If you write stuff like that in C or assembly it isn't masked by a GC, > it's very clear that something is wrong, and a lot easier to locate > bugs > using truss, systrace, gdb, etc. > > The trouble isn't so much that java allows these things, but rather > that > it creates too many low paid junior programmers which get hired because > they're cheaper than more experienced ones. i.e. hiring two junior > guys > instead of one more senior guy who at least knows what he's doing. I see this happening with C++ frequently too. Java is, in my opinion, a fantastic language (with the exception of the unbelievable bloat that keeps getting heaped onto it by the Sun guys in the form of class libraries), and I've long held the theory that the problem comes with Java (or C++) is a programmer's FIRST language. Modern computer processors are typically not object oriented devices...programming them in an object-oriented langauge is, simply put, not a good fit. New programmers become spoiled very quickly with all this ultra-high-level stuff and just slather it around with wild abandon, because their CompSci courses (which are typically their only exposure to computers in a technical, as opposed to email/web browsing/game playing, context) never teach them a damn thing about how computers actually WORK. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Aug 20 10:57:32 2006 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 17:57:32 +0200 Subject: I want to get rid of a HSC70 Message-ID: Hi all, I have a HSC70 in a small cabinet (approx 90 cm deep, 105 cm high) that is taking up place that I really need. It's too crowdy. AFAIK, the HSC70 is in working order, and a tech told me that it is fairly equipped internally. I can't tell, I don't know anything of the HSC70. If somebody is interested, I can rip boards etc, before it goes to the trash :-( Somebody who wants the whole thing, comes first, as I am still hoping it can have a good "life". Contact me offlist (gooi AT oce DOT nl). - Henk, PA8PDP. _________________________________________________________________ Gratis bellen van PC naar PC? Download de nieuwste Messenger! http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=nl-nl From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Aug 20 11:04:02 2006 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 18:04:02 +0200 Subject: I need to get rid of a microVAX 3900 and some disks Message-ID: Hi all, I have a microVAX 3900 in a small cabinet (approx 90 cm deep, 105 cm high) that is taking up place that I really need. AFAIK, the 3900 is in working order, and I have also an RF215 (?) smallish tower with some disks in it. I need to check if you are interested. If you don't want the cabinet, you can get the PSU and the 3900 "crate", but given their weight, I am not going to ship it! That would get costly, but you could try to talk me into it :-) Contact me offlist (gooi AT oce DOT nl). - Henk, PA8PDP. _________________________________________________________________ 500 foto's per maand uploaden, GRATIS! http://spaces.live.com From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 20 11:18:19 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 12:18:19 -0400 Subject: D subminiture connectors Re: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <44E83401.3030200@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200608171703.NAA10423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608181535.09623.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608182026.QAA03104@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608181818.44955.rtellason@verizon.net> <44E83401.3030200@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44E88B4B.9050809@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > I seem to recall that HP used a D-shell connector with only three larger > round pins for video on some of their stuff (possibly DE sized, but I > have a feeling it might be slightly larger). If it's the connector I'm thinking of, it's called a 3w3, and it's DA-sized, with only three mini-coaxes in there. Peace... Sridhar From ray at arachelian.com Sun Aug 20 11:41:52 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 12:41:52 -0400 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E79C65.4070102@msu.edu> References: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> <44E6AC62.8090503@msu.edu> <44E79250.4090909@dakotacom.net> <44E79904.6040506@arachelian.com> <44E79C65.4070102@msu.edu> Message-ID: <44E890D0.3090104@arachelian.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > You're actually suggesting writing multithreaded, JDBC connection code > in raw assembly because it's more obvious when you've screwed up? Not > sure I follow the reasoning (I'd suggest hiring more experienced Java > coders), but more power to you on that effort :). > I hear this argument all the time (used to be about Visual BASIC) and > while I agree that making coding easier lowers the barrier to entry to > our "elite" club of the high UNIX priesthood, I don't think that it's > a valid argument to blame the language rather than the people involved. Yes, and I keep hearing this same answer to that argument, however, I find it to be less than honest. Last I heard, Java, C, C++, and even Basic and assembly languages are all used on various OS's, Unix being only one of them, so why the priesthood comment? The bottom line of my complaint is that garbage collection allows for overly sloppy code, which you could never get away with in languages that didn't have it. The problem isn't writing JDBC connection handling in "raw" (as opposed to what? cooked?) assembly. The problem is that in Java, you can get away with allocating gobs of memory without having to free it, and justify it with "Oh, the GC will clear it for me" however that attitude does not work when dealing with JDBC connections, or file handles. So, while you might be able to get away with writing sloppy memory allocation code in Java, you can't get away with the same if it involves JDBC connections, file handles, or network connections. This inconsistency, that does cause problems in real life. I pointed at C and assembly as examples of languages that lack garbage collection. Because they lack this "feature", they therefore enforce writing of better code, or force you to face much earlier crashes, and/or a clear growth of memory footprint over time. With Java, the memory footprint climbs up and down over time as the GC is invoked, and if the GC has to do a lot of work, the JVM freezes, and many memory leaks you may have are masked by the GC. You don't really know if you have a leak or not until it's too late (when you see your JVM has a 2GB footprint and is doing GC's that take over 60 seconds to complete), and even then, its difficult to locate it amongst several thousand threads. I do think that it is proper to blame every language for all of their shortcomings - please do not pretend to hold some sort of high moral ground by claiming to uphold a language as some sort of godly perfection, while in the same breath, you have turned up your nose at the idea of writing threaded database connectivity drivers in "raw" assembly. Granted, bad code has many reasons, including artificially tight deadlines, features driven by politics, unclear specifications, and yes, even sloppy coders. But don't fail to call out the flaws where you find them - even if they happen to be in a favored or popular language. From ray at arachelian.com Sun Aug 20 12:04:49 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 13:04:49 -0400 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E7F7FA.7060708@dakotacom.net> References: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200608200437.AAA02650@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44E7F7FA.7060708@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E89631.8080000@arachelian.com> Don wrote: > And you have to ensure that there is *no* way the user can > execute code *before* your interpreter/virtual machine/etc. > gains control of the CPU. I.e., at the very least, you > need physical control over the machine. This isnt possible > in all cases (e.g., a consumer device!) > That's all fine and good, but in the end, it only addresses a very small class of security flaws. Running untrusted code in a VM (or chroot jails, etc) are a good way to isolate it, but the core issue is that said code is untrusted. You can prevent a few types of exploits in the extent of the damage they can cause, but that's about it. If you code you're running has security flaws, or back doors, you'll still be affected by them, just to a lesser degree, since anything that allows an opponent to gain remote control of that code would be locked down to that sandbox. A VM is not a total security fix. Remember that the VM or emulator is a Turing Universal Machine. The definition of which is a machine that can do everything some other machine can. This includes the execution of the very same security holes you're trying to prevent. No matter how many layers of abstraction you wrap around something, a security flaw is still a security flaw, and there are no easy fixes. You can fix and prevent buffer overflows, you can fix and prevent stack smashes without VM's. VM's however are good at isolation of data, and rolling back state. You can use them to run a web browser and prevent access to your financial files from that web browser. If something takes over your web browser, you can undo all the changes by shutting it down, reverting the data from a backup and restarting the VM. By using a VM to encapsulate untrusted code, you haven't fixed any security hole, but what you've done is to have turned a remote access exploit into a denial of service exploit. A good trade, IMHO. What you gain with a VM is a bit more than what separate computers (known as an air gap) gain you. Unless there are flaws in the VM that allow a remote access exploit to escape the VM. Going back to the web browser example, if you use a VM to surf the web, and happen to download an interesting program, or update that you trust, but is actually malware, and run it outside the VM, you haven't won anything by using the VM. This is a policy issue, because at that point, you've violated the constraints of the air-gap. VM's are not magic bullets, although they're very useful. In the end, there's only the question of what's your threat model, and what's an acceptable risk. From dm.hunt at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 20 10:25:34 2006 From: dm.hunt at ntlworld.com (David Hunt) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 16:25:34 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <44E870B0.5000404@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <001e01c6c46c$e33e49a0$3201a8c0@hal> > Out of interest, anyone know how many ZX80s were sold as > kits? This one's a factory-built one, complete with original > ZX80 PSU. The heatsink for the regulator gets pretty hot, and > that's even without the RAM pack plugged in... Me and a couple of friends were given kits as a prize at school, I don't remember that much about the ZX80, apart from the regulator kept cutting out and eventually went pop. My Father spent a couple of evenings making up a decent stabilised PSU for it. With the PSU the ZX80 ran a lot cooler. I never bothered with any more Sinclair products after that, once into Acorn, I was hooked... Mind you I had the same hassle with my Acorn Atom kit too, many owners of expanded Acorn Atom systems will tell you of the roasting regulator on their boards. Dave ;) From classiccmp at ian.viemeister.com Sun Aug 20 12:11:17 2006 From: classiccmp at ian.viemeister.com (Ian Viemeister) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 13:11:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: D subminiture connectors Re: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <44E88B4B.9050809@gmail.com> References: <200608171703.NAA10423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608181535.09623.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608182026.QAA03104@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608181818.44955.rtellason@verizon.net> <44E83401.3030200@yahoo.co.uk> <44E88B4B.9050809@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Aug 2006, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > I seem to recall that HP used a D-shell connector with only three larger > > round pins for video on some of their stuff (possibly DE sized, but I > > have a feeling it might be slightly larger). > > If it's the connector I'm thinking of, it's called a 3w3, and it's > DA-sized, with only three mini-coaxes in there. Yup. Also used for some VAXStation video. --Ian From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 20 13:14:56 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 11:14:56 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E89631.8080000@arachelian.com> References: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200608200437.AAA02650@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44E7F7FA.7060708@dakotacom.net> <44E89631.8080000@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44E8A6A0.5040705@dakotacom.net> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Don wrote: >> And you have to ensure that there is *no* way the user can >> execute code *before* your interpreter/virtual machine/etc. >> gains control of the CPU. I.e., at the very least, you >> need physical control over the machine. This isnt possible >> in all cases (e.g., a consumer device!) > > That's all fine and good, but in the end, it only addresses a very small > class of security flaws. I'm not claiming that it does anything *more* than that! :> Rather, I am claiming that is NOT "hackerproof" nor "crashproof" in an environment where an unskilled user (e.g. "consumer") can install (intentionally or accidentally) unproven software (hostile or just buggy) at will. The approach I have begun to take locks devices up tight. If it doesn't start up properly, it's *broken*. No, you can't reinstall the software -- return it to the factory (or, wait for the FedEx man to bring you a replacement tomorrow morning). It is much easier to design to minimize the potential for that "doesn't start up properly" than to deal with corrupted systems (code, data, etc.) after-the-fact. (in fact, "doesn't start up properly" happens almost *never* so this is an easy tradeoff). From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 20 13:13:03 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 14:13:03 -0400 Subject: Anyone have an Apple Modem 1200 or 300 manual? In-Reply-To: <44E74724.2040706@arachelian.com> References: <44E74724.2040706@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200608201413.03633.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 19 August 2006 01:15 pm, Ray Arachelian wrote: > I'm wondering if this was a Hayes compatible modem, and if so what the > result strings were for various commands such as just "AT" by itself, > and "ATI", "ATI0" and so on. Dunno about those last ones, but on anything I've tried that responded to the AT commands sending just AT by itself usually got me back an "OK". This was my way of verifying that I was talking to the modem at all, for starters. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Aug 20 13:14:34 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 14:14:34 -0400 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <44E8810C.2000607@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44E855DB.5090709@yahoo.co.uk> <7.0.1.0.0.20060820124256.050a4ed8@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> <44E870B0.5000404@yahoo.co.uk> <20060820135106.238FDBA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44E8810C.2000607@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20060820181435.07CA6BA4148@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > That is a shame - I imagine to a lot of people the aim was the fun in > assembling a kit, rather than the cost saving... Well, it did come with a schematic, at least! And it's not like you could figure out its video generation by just reading the schematic, either :-) > I think you're right and that only applies to UK machines; other sites I've > seen suggest that the total number produced and sold worldwide was over 100,000. > > It's interesting how rare they seem to be considering those sales figures - I > mean there are plenty of other machines around where sales were only a > fraction of that and yet there's still a healthy number in private hands. Two factors: 1. The ZX80 is so compact that I'm sure there are many of them still tucked away into corners or even between books on bookshelves. 2. The ZX80 was SO entry level that anyone really interested in computers moved on to a better platform very very quickly. Yeah, it was nominally expandable, and I even built a couple little doo-dads that went onto the expansion connector, but the whole setup was so physically unstable! I'm going to leave out the true factor, which is how the ZX80's wedge shape immediately inspires everyone to use it as a doorstop :-) Tim. .. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Aug 20 14:08:34 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 14:08:34 Subject: D subminiture connectors Re: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <200608182026.QAA03104@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200608181535.09623.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608171703.NAA10423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <01C6C187.589D7E20@mse-d03> <3.0.6.16.20060818150856.0eefc80a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200608181535.09623.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060820140834.0f87c6a2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:19 PM 8/18/06 -0400, you wrote: >>> BTW the B in DB refers to the size shell. The 25 pin connectors >>> used on the original IBM are B size. Other sizes use a different >>> letter ie DE, etc. But a lot of people call every size "DB" > >Until relatively recently I was one of them. :-( > >> So what letters are used for other sizes? > >DA is the 15-pin size, the one used by AUI Ethernet back in the heyday >of 10base5. > >DB is the 25-pin size, the one that's standard for serial ports >(de-jure standard, not the 9-pin de-facto standard). Also used for >peecee parallel ports and older Macintosh SCSI, and doubtless a bunch >of other things too. > >DC is a size I almost never see, and I don't remember the exact pin >count. 37? 39? Something like that. 37 pin. This was what was used for the external floppy drive port on the original IBM PC. > >DD is a much larger size, supporting 50 pins. Some of the older Sun >equipment uses this for SCSI, which is the only use I know it from. > >DE is the small size, used with 9 pins for the serial connectors I >mentioned above and with 15 pins for peecee video ("VGA"). Good example. They're both DE size connectors but the 15 pin VGA connector uses a different insert and is a high density connector. FWIW ITT Cannon makes ALL kinds of different inserts and pins for the different shell. I used to write requirements for military equipment including stuff using the D series connectors and there are MILLIONs of combinations. The last time that I looked the Cannon connector catalog was over 300 pages long and it's crammed full of different parts. You can dozens of different shells, dozens if not hundreds of different inserts and then all kinds of different contacts including coaxial, high current and many specialty contacts and on top of everything else there are many different types of attaching hardware including slide locks, the wire clips, screws, jack posts and more. EVERY piece of these connctors was ordered separately so there are thousands of different ways that they can be assembled. That's why naming a specific configuration is so confusing. Joe > >I don't know why the order makes so much sense for DA through DD and >then goes wonky for DE. I conjecture that when it was originally >planned, nobody expected it to be used for anything that small, so the >DE was tacked on as an afterthought. (I suppose they could have used >D@, but that would make sense only to geeks who know their ASCII. :) > >I also don't know whether there are any other sizes with names. Other >sizes, though rare, do exist; for example, NeXT used a D-shell >connector of an odd size, with something like 19 pins, to drive their >greyscale video displays. > >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sun Aug 20 13:33:36 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 13:33:36 -0500 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <20060820181435.07CA6BA4148@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <44E855DB.5090709@yahoo.co.uk> <7.0.1.0.0.20060820124256.050a4ed8@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> <44E870B0.5000404@yahoo.co.uk> <20060820135106.238FDBA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44E8810C.2000607@yahoo.co.uk> <20060820181435.07CA6BA4148@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: I have one that I built into a large case with large monitor , similar to the PET , with several expansion boards. I have owned it since I bought it new and it now sits and gathers dust in the garage. On 8/20/06, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > That is a shame - I imagine to a lot of people the aim was the fun in > > assembling a kit, rather than the cost saving... > > Well, it did come with a schematic, at least! > > And it's not like you could figure out its video generation by just > reading the schematic, either :-) > > > I think you're right and that only applies to UK machines; other sites I've > > seen suggest that the total number produced and sold worldwide was over 100,000. > > > > It's interesting how rare they seem to be considering those sales figures - I > > mean there are plenty of other machines around where sales were only a > > fraction of that and yet there's still a healthy number in private hands. > > Two factors: > > 1. The ZX80 is so compact that I'm sure there are many of them still tucked > away into corners or even between books on bookshelves. > > 2. The ZX80 was SO entry level that anyone really interested in computers > moved on to a better platform very very quickly. > > Yeah, it was nominally expandable, and I even built a couple little > doo-dads that went onto the expansion connector, but the whole setup was > so physically unstable! > > I'm going to leave out the true factor, which is how the ZX80's wedge > shape immediately inspires everyone to use it as a doorstop :-) > > Tim. > .. > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 20 13:34:39 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 14:34:39 -0400 Subject: data sheet for com5025 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <983d9dc5c22a2ecd38949411ee9827b4@neurotica.com> On Aug 20, 2006, at 10:45 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > Does anyone have a pointer to a data sheet for a com5025? I believe > it to be a synchronous serial chip but I've not found much on the web. > I think it is compatable with a 2652 but the only thing I can find on > that > is a 16 bit part from Philips. I don't think this is a 16 bit > appliction. The COM5025 is mostly compatible with the 2652, but not completely. Both are 16-bit parts. I have info about it in a book here...My scanner is having problems so I can't scan it, but I can type stuff up from the book if you need it. Let me know. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 20 13:40:30 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 11:40:30 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E79904.6040506@arachelian.com> References: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> <44E6AC62.8090503@msu.edu> <44E79250.4090909@dakotacom.net> <44E79904.6040506@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44E8AC9E.9020607@dakotacom.net> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Don wrote: >> It's like claiming "run Java/Inferno/etc. on your machine and you'll >> never have to worry about security issues" (unless, of course, >> someone boots the machine to a "non-Java" state!) > I'm somewhat unhappy with Java. It allows junior programmers to do > silly things, like allocate lots of memory and not have to worry about > it just because there's a garbage collector. In real life, what happens > is that they write applications with hundreds, even thousands of threads > that grab resources other than just memory such as JDBC connections, or > file handles and never properly release them. It's the OS's responsibility to play policeman -- not the language. > The trouble isn't so much that java allows these things, but rather that > it creates too many low paid junior programmers which get hired because > they're cheaper than more experienced ones. i.e. hiring two junior guys > instead of one more senior guy who at least knows what he's doing. That's been The Way of The World ever since machines were invented. And, I suspect it will continue to be so. An implicit goal of software engineering is to make it easier for folks to express their ideas -- and let the machine handle all the grunt work. The fact that less and less skilled people are writing code (in a particular language) is a natural consequence of that. Personally, I want languages to let me do what I want to do, and *how* I want to do it. Without artificial constraints E.g., if I want "I" to represent *amps* -- as a real -- and "A" to represent *artichokes* -- an *integer* -- I dont want a language implicitly forcing some other types on me based solely on the naes I have chosen, etc. (silly example of something that a machine can -- and should -- do for me). It *is* amusing to see how all of these "improvements" apparently haven't resulted in better code... :-( From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 20 13:57:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 11:57:03 -0700 Subject: data sheet for com5025 In-Reply-To: <983d9dc5c22a2ecd38949411ee9827b4@neurotica.com> References: <983d9dc5c22a2ecd38949411ee9827b4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200608201157030943.1024BADF@10.0.0.252> On 8/20/2006 at 2:34 PM Dave McGuire wrote: > The COM5025 is mostly compatible with the 2652, but not completely. >Both are 16-bit parts. I have info about it in a book here...My >scanner is having problems so I can't scan it, but I can type stuff up >from the book if you need it. Let me know. Isn't the Mostek MK5025 a compatible part? IIRC, it can be used on either an 8 or 16 bit bus. http://www.tranzistoare.ro/datasheets/restul/502155_DS.pdf I've also got the 7990 Lance datasheets in printed form, which is supposedly also compatible. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 20 14:18:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 12:18:03 -0700 Subject: data sheet for com5025 In-Reply-To: <200608201157030943.1024BADF@10.0.0.252> References: <983d9dc5c22a2ecd38949411ee9827b4@neurotica.com> <200608201157030943.1024BADF@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608201218030086.1037F159@10.0.0.252> Here's the 2652 data sheet, which looks to be quite different from the MK5025 http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/19132/PHILIPS/SCN2652AC2A44. html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Aug 20 14:49:16 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 13:49:16 -0600 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <20060820181435.07CA6BA4148@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <44E855DB.5090709@yahoo.co.uk> <7.0.1.0.0.20060820124256.050a4ed8@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> <44E870B0.5000404@yahoo.co.uk> <20060820135106.238FDBA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44E8810C.2000607@yahoo.co.uk> <20060820181435.07CA6BA4148@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <44E8BCBC.3030105@jetnet.ab.ca> Tim Shoppa wrote: > I'm going to leave out the true factor, which is how the ZX80's wedge > shape immediately inspires everyone to use it as a doorstop :-) Nope ... way too light for that! The real fun is buiding your own from scratch! No kit here -- just order the parts. http://home.micros.users.btopenworld.com/zx80/zx80.html From technobug at comcast.net Sun Aug 20 15:18:26 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 13:18:26 -0700 Subject: iAPX432, was Re: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608200215.k7K2FZBx074226@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608200215.k7K2FZBx074226@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <9F8AAB48-CCF8-44C2-AA52-222A1504D939@comcast.net> On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 17:22:43 -0700, jim stephens wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: > >>> There were a lot of good ideas in the iAPX432, anybody knows, if >>> they >>> actually were used on any OS ? >> >> >> AS/400. Properly. >> > can you elaborate, or point to a web page? thanks I wasn't aware that Intel had anything to do with the AS/400 architecture :-) The iAPX432 was an interesting Intel failure of the '80s which provided the tools to layout subsequent Intel devices. is a good read on the beast. An detailed overview of the architecture: (Part of an interesting book on Capability-Based Computer Systems - a whole other thread... ) I remember salivating over the chip system when it came out until I got sticker shock. CRC < From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 20 15:27:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 13:27:46 -0700 Subject: iAPX432, was Re: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <9F8AAB48-CCF8-44C2-AA52-222A1504D939@comcast.net> References: <200608200215.k7K2FZBx074226@dewey.classiccmp.org> <9F8AAB48-CCF8-44C2-AA52-222A1504D939@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200608201327460523.1077C6BC@10.0.0.252> On 8/20/2006 at 1:18 PM CRC wrote: >I remember salivating over the chip system when it came out until I >got sticker shock. IIRC, the chipset was very cool, but very SLOW for the time. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 20 15:29:59 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 16:29:59 -0400 Subject: iAPX432, was Re: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <9F8AAB48-CCF8-44C2-AA52-222A1504D939@comcast.net> References: <200608200215.k7K2FZBx074226@dewey.classiccmp.org> <9F8AAB48-CCF8-44C2-AA52-222A1504D939@comcast.net> Message-ID: > I wasn't aware that Intel had anything to do with the AS/400 > architecture :-) One has to wonder if the Intel engineers were aware of IBM's FS (Future System, the OO architecture that was supposed to rule the world in the mid 1970s). > The iAPX432 was an interesting Intel failure of the '80s which > provided the tools to layout subsequent Intel devices. In a way, FS was very similar - a flaming disaster for IBM on the surface, but many ideas were reused with great success. -- Will From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Aug 20 12:53:13 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 13:53:13 -0400 Subject: data sheet for com5025 Message-ID: <0J4B008EW5KOPGW0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: data sheet for com5025 > From: "dwight elvey" > Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 07:45:45 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >Hi >Does anyone have a pointer to a data sheet for a com5025? I believe >it to be a synchronous serial chip but I've not found much on the web. >I think it is compatable with a 2652 but the only thing I can find on that >is a 16 bit part from Philips. I don't think this is a 16 bit appliction. >Thanks >Dwight > It's a multiprotocal universal synchronous reciever/tranmitter [USYNR/T] and it's wade by SMC and show in their 82/83 databook and later. It's an 8/16 bit bus device, selectable. Allison From lists at groll.co.za Sun Aug 20 14:34:30 2006 From: lists at groll.co.za (Jonathan Groll) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:34:30 +0200 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <20060820135106.238FDBA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <44E855DB.5090709@yahoo.co.uk> <7.0.1.0.0.20060820124256.050a4ed8@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> <44E870B0.5000404@yahoo.co.uk> <20060820135106.238FDBA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20060820193430.GA6722@groll.co.za> On Sun, Aug 20, 2006 at 09:51:06AM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: > I did a google search and looked on Wikipedia but some of the details > there do NOT match my memory. They say there were only 50,000 ZX80's sold > and this seems to be a ridiculously low number for a mass-market > machine sold through many different channels. They say that the Sinclair > brand was only in the UK and this does not match my experience of having > bought one in the US (or the > ads in 1980 Radio-Electronics). But this was 26 years ago, so my memory > isn't exactly sharp either! Certainly at the time of the spectrum, Sinclair machines were sold stateside under the "Timex" brand weren't they? Although I've never seen reports of a timex branded ZX80! To this day I'm sorry that my ZX80 was thrown out with a bunch of childhood junk, sad to admit, I've always had the impression that they were MUCH rarer than 50 000 units. I suspect that the figure of 50 000 also includes other "commonwealth" countries (like South Africa, where I stay) Also, I recall that my unit always had problems showing a steady tv picture. Cheers, Jonathan. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 20 16:13:30 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 17:13:30 -0400 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E8AC9E.9020607@dakotacom.net> References: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> <44E6AC62.8090503@msu.edu> <44E79250.4090909@dakotacom.net> <44E79904.6040506@arachelian.com> <44E8AC9E.9020607@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <3718fcf75bd8db8cd3ddba590251ac4c@neurotica.com> On Aug 20, 2006, at 2:40 PM, Don wrote: >>> It's like claiming "run Java/Inferno/etc. on your machine and you'll >>> never have to worry about security issues" (unless, of course, >>> someone boots the machine to a "non-Java" state!) >> I'm somewhat unhappy with Java. It allows junior programmers to do >> silly things, like allocate lots of memory and not have to worry about >> it just because there's a garbage collector. In real life, what >> happens >> is that they write applications with hundreds, even thousands of >> threads >> that grab resources other than just memory such as JDBC connections, >> or >> file handles and never properly release them. > > It's the OS's responsibility to play policeman -- not the language. I'd say it's the responsibility of the programmer. At least that's how I write *my* code. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 20 16:15:08 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 17:15:08 -0400 Subject: data sheet for com5025 In-Reply-To: <200608201218030086.1037F159@10.0.0.252> References: <983d9dc5c22a2ecd38949411ee9827b4@neurotica.com> <200608201157030943.1024BADF@10.0.0.252> <200608201218030086.1037F159@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <35beec4cc0b6d97a8bc6fa6c1c3fe1ce@neurotica.com> On Aug 20, 2006, at 3:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Here's the 2652 data sheet, which looks to be quite different from the > MK5025 > > http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/19132/PHILIPS/ > SCN2652AC2A44. > html The docs I have here say the COM5025 was intended to be compatible with the 2652, or at least mostly so, for both hardware and software. A cursory glance at the pinouts shows them to be the same except, I think, pin 1. I haven't looked at any of the programming info. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 20 16:17:22 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 17:17:22 -0400 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <20060820193430.GA6722@groll.co.za> References: <44E855DB.5090709@yahoo.co.uk> <7.0.1.0.0.20060820124256.050a4ed8@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> <44E870B0.5000404@yahoo.co.uk> <20060820135106.238FDBA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <20060820193430.GA6722@groll.co.za> Message-ID: On Aug 20, 2006, at 3:34 PM, Jonathan Groll wrote: > Certainly at the time of the spectrum, Sinclair machines were sold > stateside under the "Timex" brand weren't they? Although I've never > seen > reports of a timex branded ZX80! I have a store-bought Timex-branded ZX81 (Timex/Sinclair 1000). My grandmother bought it for me for my birthday when they hit US department stores for $99. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 20 16:47:17 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 14:47:17 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <3718fcf75bd8db8cd3ddba590251ac4c@neurotica.com> References: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> <44E6AC62.8090503@msu.edu> <44E79250.4090909@dakotacom.net> <44E79904.6040506@arachelian.com> <44E8AC9E.9020607@dakotacom.net> <3718fcf75bd8db8cd3ddba590251ac4c@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44E8D865.3020008@dakotacom.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Aug 20, 2006, at 2:40 PM, Don wrote: >>>> It's like claiming "run Java/Inferno/etc. on your machine and you'll >>>> never have to worry about security issues" (unless, of course, >>>> someone boots the machine to a "non-Java" state!) >>> I'm somewhat unhappy with Java. It allows junior programmers to do >>> silly things, like allocate lots of memory and not have to worry about >>> it just because there's a garbage collector. In real life, what happens >>> is that they write applications with hundreds, even thousands of threads >>> that grab resources other than just memory such as JDBC connections, or >>> file handles and never properly release them. >> >> It's the OS's responsibility to play policeman -- not the language. > > I'd say it's the responsibility of the programmer. At least that's > how I write *my* code. D'uh... :> Yes, but *enforcement* is the role of the OS -- as "manager of system resources". From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 20 17:12:15 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 15:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <44E8810C.2000607@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44E855DB.5090709@yahoo.co.uk> <7.0.1.0.0.20060820124256.050a4ed8@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> <44E870B0.5000404@yahoo.co.uk> <20060820135106.238FDBA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <44E8810C.2000607@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20060820151114.H91407@shell.lmi.net> > > I did a google search and looked on Wikipedia but some of the details > > there do NOT match my memory. They say there were only 50,000 ZX80's sold > > and this seems to be a ridiculously low number for a mass-market > > machine sold through many different channels. Does that 50K number include those that were sold as "TIMEX Sinclair"? (USA market) From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sun Aug 20 17:23:33 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 17:23:33 -0500 Subject: Nixdorf LK3000 (OT?) Message-ID: I hope this qualifies for a classic computer. If not then wipe it out. I have a Nixdorf LK 3000 and LK 3500 module that I was preparing to put on E Bay but discovered it didnt work. Examining it I discovered NO BATTERY, Inside there are a blue and a red wire that must have originaly gone to a battery clip. But I dont know what size or where it resided. I dont want to get rid of this without fixing it first. Does anyone have any info on what the battery (pack?) looked like on thei personal computer? I am glad I decided to try it out because I had remembered that it DID work. Shows what 70 years will do to your memory. I dont even remember removing the battery pack! -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Aug 20 17:25:51 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:25:51 +1200 Subject: data sheet for com5025 In-Reply-To: References: <44E8810C.2000607@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 8/21/06, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > Does anyone have a pointer to a data sheet for a com5025? I believe > it to be a synchronous serial chip but I've not found much on the web. We used the COM5025 on the Unibus versions of the COMBOARD. I have several hundred of them new in tubes, FWIW. We used them for byte-oriented synchronous serial protocols (HASP, 3780) and switched to the Z8530 to support bit-stuffing protocols like SNA. I do have data sheets on them, but not yet scanned, and in any case, 10,000 miles from here. I would think that someone on the list could come up with an electronic copy months before I could. > I think it is compatable with a 2652 but the only thing I can find on that > is a 16 bit part from Philips. I don't think this is a 16 bit appliction. I don't have any information on the 2652, but in the case of the COM5025, it's found on a couple of DEC's sync serial boards (DU11?), that's why we used it. The COMBOARD was the descendent of the HASPBOX, a product that was 100% DEC hardware (either an 11/04 or 11/03 with a 16-bit parallel link back to the (big) PDP-11 host and a DEC sync serial card to the IBM box on the other end of the link. Essentially, the COMBOARD was a single-board implementation of the HASPBOX with a 68000 as the processor rather than a PDP-11. As such, I _think_ the COM5025 works on either a 16-bit or an 8-bit host bus, but we always had them on 16-bit CPUs. -ethan From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Aug 20 17:54:48 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 15:54:48 -0700 Subject: Nixdorf LK3000 (OT?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E8E838.1020300@msm.umr.edu> Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > I hope this qualifies for a classic computer. If not then wipe it out. > > I have a Nixdorf LK 3000 and LK 3500 module that I was preparing to > put on E Bay but discovered it didnt work. I hope someone gets you the correct battery description. If not, you may have one which requires either 3v or 6v. Usually batteries are not absolutely necessary, so if you power it up, and set the options up, does it stay set, or loose the settings on a reboot? You might search for a clock chip and see if you could get the voltage that is required to hold it up, as another approach. > Shows what 70 years will do to your memory. I dont even > remember removing the battery pack! It can take as few as 53 years to have that happen, from personal experience. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 20 17:37:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:37:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Archived a few PERQ games... In-Reply-To: <44E7A73A.90106@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Aug 19, 6 05:05:14 pm Message-ID: > > > > It may not matter. From what I rmemberm the infromation is stored > > elsewhere too (probably in the file descriptor blocks). THe pointers in > > the headers are used for speed and to help recover the filesystem in the > > event of disk problems. > Yes, I was wondering about this as well. The POS documentation mentions > this header information as being present on disk but doesn't describe it > in detail. The UnitIO "DiagRead" command returns an 8-word block of Yes, one of the things the manual misses out... > header data on a block read -- I don't know if this has any relationship > with the physical bits on the disk; but just in case I made sure to copy My guess is that it's just the data in the header. There'd be no reason to modify it. > those along with the 256 words of actual sector data. > > At any rate, the header data doesn't appear to be necessary for parsing > the directory structure; I've written another quick and dirty utility It's not... It's used either for efficiency (to avoid having to go back and read/interpret the file descriptor to find the next block of the file) or to halp re-create the file descriptor if it gets corrupted (conversely the file descriptor can be used to recreate these pointers in the header). > (on the PC this time) to read in the disk image and dump the directory > structure and files to disk without too many hairy issues. (The utility > and all the files on the disk are now on my website at > http://yahozna.dhs.org/computers/software/PERQ). I really must find time to look at that... > > Nothing too incredibly exciting on the disk, but it's nice to have it > archived for posterity. > > > Do you have the POS source code? I thin I hace most of the Pascal (not > > microcode, though) sources for one version. > > > I do not -- what I have on the PERQ is the bare minimum necessary to > compile and link pascal programs. I've got 7 .zip files here, around 250K each. They contain pascal sources for most of POS (I know the pascal compiler itself is not there :-(). And some microcode, etc for the 'testbed'. I can e-mail you copies (or is there somewhere I should send these to be made available?) > One quick question: Any ideas what digitizer pucks are compatible with > the BitPadOne? My PERQ came with a very very crude home-made puck > (http://yahozna.dhs.org/computers/perq/photos/digitizer-small.JPG). It > just barely works (the cursor jumps all over) and it's falling apart. > I'd love to replace this with something more authentic. Or at least > something that works correctly. There were 4 official pointing devices for this tablet : A pen-like thing. This came in 2 versions, one could be pulled apart i nth emiddle to put a ballpoint refil in, the later one couldn't. Pressing the pen point is equivalent to one of the buttons on the true pucks A single-button puck A 4 button puck. This is the correct one for the PERQ. It's the same as the single-button one with 3 more switches soldered in (in other words you can convert a single-button puck into a 4 button one. A 13 (?) button puck. I have no idea how this works, there must be an interneal diode matrix or something. The tablet only has 4 button input lines, and AFAIK there is no power line on the puck connector. As to whether or not you can use other pucks. The buttons, IIRC, just ground the appropirate line from the tablet. The sense coil is about 12mm in diameter, and IIRC around 30 turns of wire. There's no electronics in the puck. Of course piunotus are in the manual (I have that if you need said pinouts). If the home-made puck is not reliable, I'd suspect noise pickup on the coil wiring. It's a pretty small signal. Maybe some careful screening would help (the real pucks have copper foil in strategic places. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 20 17:38:44 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:38:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <95cbcb64698e80a840fe9fb6ba4981c6@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 19, 6 08:36:23 pm Message-ID: > > On Aug 19, 2006, at 6:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> heavier bypassing, but were smacked down at every turn, and "everybody > >> knows the PhDs know better!" *spit* > > > > That's news to me :-) > > My sentiments exactly. Since then, I've cleaned up the impractical, > impossible messes of several of 'em. Did you notice how I signed my name on that message? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 20 17:48:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:48:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <001e01c6c46c$e33e49a0$3201a8c0@hal> from "David Hunt" at Aug 20, 6 04:25:34 pm Message-ID: > > > Out of interest, anyone know how many ZX80s were sold as > > kits? This one's a factory-built one, complete with original > > ZX80 PSU. The heatsink for the regulator gets pretty hot, and > > that's even without the RAM pack plugged in... > > Me and a couple of friends were given kits as a prize at school, I don't > remember that much about the ZX80, apart from the regulator kept cutting out > and eventually went pop. My Father spent a couple of evenings making up a Sounds like Sinclair :-( > decent stabilised PSU for it. With the PSU the ZX80 ran a lot cooler. I > never bothered with any more Sinclair products after that, once into Acorn, I bought an MK14 back when it was current. That put me off Sinclair for life... > I was hooked... Mind you I had the same hassle with my Acorn Atom kit too, > many owners of expanded Acorn Atom systems will tell you of the roasting > regulator on their boards. I seem to remmember you were supposed to fit a zecond regulator (7805) and cut a link if you expaneded the Atom. Then each regulator powered about half of the machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 20 17:55:05 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:55:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: data sheet for com5025 In-Reply-To: <200608201157030943.1024BADF@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 20, 6 11:57:03 am Message-ID: > I've also got the 7990 Lance datasheets in printed form, which is > supposedly also compatible. Given that one is a synchronous serial chip, the other an ethernet controller, I find that unlikely! However, I have seen a 48 pin 5025 that has much the same pinout as (IIRC) the 7900 -- well, one ethernet chip anyhow. Somewhere I have a communciations bridge that can take 3 I/O cards. On the mainboard you fit an 7990 for positions where you have ethernet cards, and a 5025 for the X21 or X25 cards. I think there's a jumper to set too, but that's it. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 20 18:11:02 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 19:11:02 -0400 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 20, 2006, at 6:38 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> heavier bypassing, but were smacked down at every turn, and >>>> "everybody >>>> knows the PhDs know better!" *spit* >>> >>> That's news to me :-) >> >> My sentiments exactly. Since then, I've cleaned up the >> impractical, >> impossible messes of several of 'em. > > Did you notice how I signed my name on that message? You signed it "De ARD", correct? I assumed it was a ham radio reference. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 20 18:25:39 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 00:25:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 20, 6 07:11:02 pm Message-ID: > > Did you notice how I signed my name on that message? > > You signed it "De ARD", correct? I assumed it was a ham radio > reference. No, Dr ARD. I was pointing out I had a Ph.D. (in particle physics). In other words, I should know that having a Ph.D. most certainly does not mean you know everything (or for that matter anything). -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 20 18:33:16 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 19:33:16 -0400 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93392f06775cfbfdeab9a6379bec822b@neurotica.com> On Aug 20, 2006, at 7:25 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Did you notice how I signed my name on that message? >> >> You signed it "De ARD", correct? I assumed it was a ham radio >> reference. > > No, Dr ARD. I was pointing out I had a Ph.D. (in particle physics). In > other words, I should know that having a Ph.D. most certainly does not > mean you know everything (or for that matter anything). OH oh oh oh. I thought it was "De". Well since YOU'RE the one I send electronics questions to when I can't figure something out, I think you know that I respect your knowledge. :-) I had no idea you're into particle physics. That is extremely cool. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Aug 20 18:39:08 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 16:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? Message-ID: <200608202339.k7KNd8hK012142@floodgap.com> I think this one is on-topic. I got a Compaq Portable III dumped on my doorstep (more or less literally, actually), and while I don't really collect PCs, this one's form factor fascinated me. However, it seems like it's failing POST or its equivalent -- when I turn it on, the caps lock light on the keyboard (literally hanging on by a few threads) blinks, then the three lights on the front bezel and the 5.25" floppy light blink three times accompanied by three beeps from what appears to be the power supply?, and it just sits there, doing three beeps pause three beeps pause ..., until I turn it off. Nothing else spins up and nothing shows on the screen, even with me messing with the contrast. Any suggestions, or is there a troubleshooting manual to give me some starting points to see if I can refurbish this? Is the fact that the keyboard is probably incompletely connected to blame? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Klein bottle for immediate occupancy; inquire within. ---------------------- From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Sun Aug 20 18:53:47 2006 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 00:53:47 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <20060820135106.238FDBA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <44E855DB.5090709@yahoo.co.uk> <7.0.1.0.0.20060820124256.050a4ed8@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> <44E870B0.5000404@yahoo.co.uk> <20060820135106.238FDBA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20060821004732.050a5168@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> At 14:51 20/08/2006, Tim Shoppa wrote: >I did a google search and looked on Wikipedia but some of the details >there do NOT match my memory. They say there were only 50,000 ZX80's sold >and this seems to be a ridiculously low number for a mass-market >machine sold through many different channels. They say that the Sinclair >brand was only in the UK and this does not match my experience of having >bought one in the US (or the >ads in 1980 Radio-Electronics). But this was 26 years ago, so my memory >isn't exactly sharp either! Are you sure you are thinking of the ZX80 - flat and white with a hump at the back - and not the ZX81 (squarer, black)? The ZX81 (and then the ZX Spectrum) was indeed mass-market, sold here by major high street chains and definitely under the Timex brand in the US. My only experience of seeing the ZX80 was in a few magazine adverts as purely a mail-order kit, but with built ones available... The ZX81 was only a year later. I bought and built the ZX81 kit, and only later inherited the ZX80 I still have. I really wish I'd not got rid of the '81 now - I had several, in the end, with loads of accessories, and I swapped it all for something so inconsequential that I can't even remember what it was, now.. Rob From evan at snarc.net Sun Aug 20 19:00:41 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 20:00:41 -0400 Subject: Nixdorf LK3000 (OT?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c6c4b4$d7b72820$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> It takes four AA-size 500ma nicads for a total of 6V. I might have an extra AC adapter. If you need it, then email me off-list. - Evan -----Original Message----- From: Jim Isbell, W5JAI [mailto:jim.isbell at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 6:24 PM To: List for Computer Talk Subject: Nixdorf LK3000 (OT?) I hope this qualifies for a classic computer. If not then wipe it out. I have a Nixdorf LK 3000 and LK 3500 module that I was preparing to put on E Bay but discovered it didnt work. Examining it I discovered NO BATTERY, Inside there are a blue and a red wire that must have originaly gone to a battery clip. But I dont know what size or where it resided. I dont want to get rid of this without fixing it first. Does anyone have any info on what the battery (pack?) looked like on thei personal computer? I am glad I decided to try it out because I had remembered that it DID work. Shows what 70 years will do to your memory. I dont even remember removing the battery pack! -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 20 19:19:52 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 17:19:52 -0700 Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? In-Reply-To: <200608202339.k7KNd8hK012142@floodgap.com> References: <200608202339.k7KNd8hK012142@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <44E8FC28.6010200@dakotacom.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I think this one is on-topic. I got a Compaq Portable III dumped on my > doorstep (more or less literally, actually), and while I don't really > collect PCs, this one's form factor fascinated me. However, it seems like > it's failing POST or its equivalent -- when I turn it on, the caps lock > light on the keyboard (literally hanging on by a few threads) blinks, then > the three lights on the front bezel and the 5.25" floppy light blink three > times accompanied by three beeps from what appears to be the power supply?, > and it just sits there, doing three beeps pause three beeps pause ..., until > I turn it off. > > Nothing else spins up and nothing shows on the screen, even with me messing > with the contrast. Any suggestions, or is there a troubleshooting manual to > give me some starting points to see if I can refurbish this? Is the fact that > the keyboard is probably incompletely connected to blame? How do you know the keyboard is "incompletely connected"? I assume that those "few threads" are actually capable of carrying current? The connector for the keyboard is *recessed* in the lower right (front) corner of the machine. There is a snap-in plastic plug (round with a slot cut in it's face for the keyboard cable) that covers up the actual connection. The disk LEDs are located on the front upper right of the unit -- right below the power LED. The "contrast" control is actually more of a *brightness* control. Can you see *anything* ("keep alives") glowing in the display? Does the floppy *do* anything? Compaq used to have documentation (very limited) for this on their web sight (legacy product archive). I am not sure if it is still there (I haven't checked since before HP merger). I'll dig through my archives to see which of those documents I have saved. *Expect* the battery to be dead. That means you'll need to replace it (with some sort of kludge). It also means you will have to run the setup program -- which means a bootable "setup" floppy (I think I have images of these for you if they aren't on the Compaq site). Also, the floppy drives often get flakey on this box. Which means you're screwed when you need to run the setup floppy! :-/ --don From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 20 19:23:44 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 20:23:44 -0400 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <3718fcf75bd8db8cd3ddba590251ac4c@neurotica.com> References: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> <44E6AC62.8090503@msu.edu> <44E79250.4090909@dakotacom.net> <44E79904.6040506@arachelian.com> <44E8AC9E.9020607@dakotacom.net> <3718fcf75bd8db8cd3ddba590251ac4c@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44E8FD10.4010703@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >> It's the OS's responsibility to play policeman -- not the language. > > I'd say it's the responsibility of the programmer. At least that's > how I write *my* code. Hear, hear!!! Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 20 19:26:45 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 20:26:45 -0400 Subject: 293xx Message-ID: <44E8FDC5.30108@gmail.com> Is there anyone around who has datasheets for the AMD Am29300-series chips, and wouldn't mind scanning them for me? I'm most interested in the sheets for the Am29331 sequencer and the Am29332 ALU. Thanks. Peace... Sridhar From reevejd at mchsi.com Sun Aug 20 19:41:52 2006 From: reevejd at mchsi.com (John D. Reeve) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 19:41:52 -0500 Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? References: <200608202339.k7KNd8hK012142@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <000601c6c4ba$9fbea370$75f2ce0c@gatewaynotebook> Hi Cameron. I also have a Portable III and have a suggestion - try substituting another keyboard for the one that came with the machine. It has a standard AT type keyboard connector hidden a couple of inches inside the case. You'll need to remove the U-shaped piece of plastic surrounding the cord to see the connector. If you only have PS/2 type keyboards you may need to find an adapter. Cheers, John Reeve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 6:39 PM Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? >I think this one is on-topic. I got a Compaq Portable III dumped on my > doorstep (more or less literally, actually), and while I don't really > collect PCs, this one's form factor fascinated me. However, it seems like > it's failing POST or its equivalent -- when I turn it on, the caps lock > light on the keyboard (literally hanging on by a few threads) blinks, then > the three lights on the front bezel and the 5.25" floppy light blink three > times accompanied by three beeps from what appears to be the power > supply?, > and it just sits there, doing three beeps pause three beeps pause ..., > until > I turn it off. > > Nothing else spins up and nothing shows on the screen, even with me > messing > with the contrast. Any suggestions, or is there a troubleshooting manual > to > give me some starting points to see if I can refurbish this? Is the fact > that > the keyboard is probably incompletely connected to blame? > > -- > --------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Klein bottle for immediate occupancy; inquire > within. ---------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Aug 20 19:45:58 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 17:45:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? In-Reply-To: <44E8FC28.6010200@dakotacom.net> from Don at "Aug 20, 6 05:19:52 pm" Message-ID: <200608210045.k7L0jwH1010254@floodgap.com> > How do you know the keyboard is "incompletely connected"? > I assume that those "few threads" are actually capable of > carrying current? No, I mean, the cable is frayed and wires are open, visible and in most places partially or totally cut. As in, the cable is barely physically intact. > The connector for the keyboard is *recessed* in the lower right > (front) corner of the machine. There is a snap-in plastic > plug (round with a slot cut in it's face for the keyboard > cable) that covers up the actual connection. I'll try to dig it out. Is it a regular 5-pin AT? > The disk LEDs are located on the front upper right of > the unit -- right below the power LED. Those are the ones that blink with the beep-beep-beep-pause from the back. > The "contrast" control is actually more of a *brightness* control. > Can you see *anything* ("keep alives") glowing in the display? > Does the floppy *do* anything? The floppy just blinks its light. It doesn't even try to spin. There is nothing on the screen no matter what I set the control to. > *Expect* the battery to be dead. That means you'll need > to replace it (with some sort of kludge). It also means > you will have to run the setup program -- which means > a bootable "setup" floppy (I think I have images of these > for you if they aren't on the Compaq site). I have it connected to AC, so unless it needs the battery to boot (*mumble* fricking Mac Portable*mumble*), it shouldn't be that ... Please let me know what you find. The form factor is fascinating, so I would love to get it running again. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- So what's my point? I don't know, it's fun to talk about. -- Judy Blackburn From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Aug 20 19:49:36 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 17:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? In-Reply-To: <000601c6c4ba$9fbea370$75f2ce0c@gatewaynotebook> from "John D. Reeve" at "Aug 20, 6 07:41:52 pm" Message-ID: <200608210049.k7L0na01011140@floodgap.com> > Hi Cameron. I also have a Portable III and have a suggestion - try > substituting another keyboard for the one that came with the machine. It > has a standard AT type keyboard connector hidden a couple of inches inside > the case. You'll need to remove the U-shaped piece of plastic surrounding > the cord to see the connector. If you only have PS/2 type keyboards you may > need to find an adapter. Cheers, John Reeve I'll try that. I'll have to dig around for an AT keyboard. Would it fail POST like that (I assume this is a POST error) without a proper keyboard connection? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Furious activity is no substitute for understanding. -- H. H. Williams ----- From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Aug 20 19:56:57 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 17:56:57 -0700 Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? In-Reply-To: <200608210045.k7L0jwH1010254@floodgap.com> References: <200608210045.k7L0jwH1010254@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <44E904D9.9040509@msm.umr.edu> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>How do you know the keyboard is "incompletely connected"? >>I assume that those "few threads" are actually capable of >>carrying current? >> >> > >No, I mean, the cable is frayed and wires are open, visible and in most places >partially or totally cut. As in, the cable is barely physically intact. > > > I just unpacked one that had been stored in a reasonable warehouse environment, this week, and when I pulled off the keyboard, the insulation sheathing totally disintegrated. I think they tried some sort of plastic to make the cable retain the curl, and it was not very good. I have not tested the keyboard, the later suggestion of trying another standard at is a good one. This is pretty much an AT with a 30 or so entry HD table, instead of just the AT's 15 entry table in the disk extension. As such, you need an AT setup disk to set the cmos if it is dead. It should boot and run either the compaq one, or the standard AT one. If you dont need > 15 in the drive type, the standard AT will work. A lot of these had drive type 2, which IIRC is a 20mb. Another thing that concerns me is that you need to say whether you see floppy activity, either constant (bad ps) or none at all after you boot up. You should see a floppy seek if you have a floppy installed, just like an ordinary AT would do. >I have it connected to AC, so unless it needs the battery to boot (*mumble* >fricking Mac Portable*mumble*), it shouldn't be that ... > > > yes, it needs to have cmos setup program booted from floppy if (since the battery will be) is dead. >Please let me know what you find. The form factor is fascinating, so I >would love to get it running again. > > > They are nice 286 or 386 machines, consume much less than preserving the equivalent AT pile. Jim From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 20 20:02:21 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 18:02:21 -0700 Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? In-Reply-To: <200608210045.k7L0jwH1010254@floodgap.com> References: <200608210045.k7L0jwH1010254@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <44E9061D.2060501@dakotacom.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> How do you know the keyboard is "incompletely connected"? >> I assume that those "few threads" are actually capable of >> carrying current? > > No, I mean, the cable is frayed and wires are open, visible and in most places > partially or totally cut. As in, the cable is barely physically intact. Ah. "Ooops!" >> The connector for the keyboard is *recessed* in the lower right >> (front) corner of the machine. There is a snap-in plastic >> plug (round with a slot cut in it's face for the keyboard >> cable) that covers up the actual connection. > > I'll try to dig it out. Is it a regular 5-pin AT? AT style, not PS/2 >> The disk LEDs are located on the front upper right of >> the unit -- right below the power LED. > > Those are the ones that blink with the beep-beep-beep-pause from the back. > >> The "contrast" control is actually more of a *brightness* control. >> Can you see *anything* ("keep alives") glowing in the display? >> Does the floppy *do* anything? > > The floppy just blinks its light. It doesn't even try to spin. There is > nothing on the screen no matter what I set the control to. > >> *Expect* the battery to be dead. That means you'll need >> to replace it (with some sort of kludge). It also means >> you will have to run the setup program -- which means >> a bootable "setup" floppy (I think I have images of these >> for you if they aren't on the Compaq site). > > I have it connected to AC, so unless it needs the battery to boot (*mumble* > fricking Mac Portable*mumble*), it shouldn't be that ... It's not a "portable" in that sense -- it requires Mains power at all times (when running). But, there is a small battery inside that powers the clock and CMOS. It will almost certainly be dead. Without valid CMOS, you can't use internal (hard) disk, etc. > Please let me know what you find. The form factor is fascinating, so I > would love to get it running again. Here's a list of POST errors that I found. Hopefully they fit your symptoms... --------8<-----------8<------------- Power-On Self-Test Messages When you switch on your system, it runs a series of diagnostic tests, collectively called the Power-on Self-Test (POST). POST makes sure the following computer parts are functioning properly: * Keyboard * Power supply * System board * System memory * Memory modules * Controllers * Graphics system * Diskette drives * Hard drives POST also detects the type of mass storage devices installed in the computer. If POST finds an error in the system, it reports the error condition by an audible and/or visual message. The computer will show an error message if POST determines a potential problem. The following table lists the POST messages, the audible (beep) message, probable cause, and recommended action. Power-On Self-Test Messages Message Beeps Probable Cause Recommended Action 101 - ROM Error 1 Long, 1 short System ROM Checksum 1. Inspect the ROM Placement. 2. Verify the correct ROM. 3. Replace the ROM 101 - I/0 ROM Error None Option ROM checksum 1. Inspect the ROM Placement. 2. Verify the correct ROM. 3. Replace the ROM 102 - System Board Failure None DMA, Timers, etc. Replace the system board 162 - System Options Error 2 Short No diskette drive or mismatch in drive type Run Computer Setup. 162 - System Options Not Set 2 Short Configuration incorrect Run Computer Setup 163 - Time & Date Not Set 2 Short Invalid time or date in configuration memory Run Computer Setup 164 - Memory Size Error 2 Short Memory configuration incorrect Run Computer Setup 174 - ISA Configuration /Slot Mismatch 1 Short Plug & Play ISA board not found Run the Configuration and Diagnostics Utility 175 - ISA Configuration /Slot Mismatch 1 Short Plug & Play ISA board added, configuration not updated Run the Configuration and Diagnostics Utility 178 - Processor Configuration Invalid None Processor type or step do not match configuration memory Run Computer Setup 201 - Memory Error None RAM failure 1. Run Computer Setup. 2. Replace the memory modules. 3. Replace system board. 203 - Memory Address Error None RAM failure 1. Run Computer Setup. 2. Replace the memory module(s) (if any). 3. Replace system board. 205 - Memory Error None Cache memory error Run the Configuration and Diagnostics Utilities. 206 - Secondary cache controller Failure None Cache memory controller or RAM failure Run the Configuration and Diagnostics Utilities 301 - Keyboard Error None Keyboard failure Reconnect keyboard with computer turned off. 301 - Keyboard Error or Text Fixture Installed None Keyboard failure Replace the keyboard. 303 - Keyboard Controller Error None I/O board keyboard controller Replace the system board. 304 - Keyboard or System Unit Error None Keyboard 1. Replace the keyboard. 2. Replace the system board. 40X - Parallel Port X Address Assignment Conflict 2 Short Both external and internal ports are assigned to parallel port X Run Computer Setup. 402 - Monochrome Adapter Failure 1 Long, 2 Short Monochrome display controller. Replace the monochrome display adapter. 501 - Display Adapter Failure 1 Long, 1 Short Video display controller Replace the video board. 601 - Diskette Controller Error None Diskette controller circuitry. 1. Check and/or replace cables. 2. Replace the system board. 602 - Diskette Boot None Diskette in drive A not bootable Replace the diskette. 605 - Diskette Drive Error. 2 Short Mismatch in drive type Run Computer Setup. 611 - Primary Floppy Port Address Assignment Conflict 2 Short Configuration error Run Computer Setup. 612 - Secondary Floppy Port Address Assignment Conflict 2 Short Configuration error Run Computer Setup. 702 - A Coprocessor Has Been Detected That Is Not Reported In CMOS None Configuration error Run Computer Setup. 703 - CMOS Reports a Coprocessor That Has Not Been Detected By POST 2 Short Configuration error Run Computer Setup. 1151 - COM Port 1 Address Assignment Conflict 2 Short Both external and internal serial ports are assigned to COM1 Run Computer Setup. 1152 - COM Port 2 Address Assignment Conflict 2 Short Both external and internal serial ports are assigned to COM2 Run Computer Setup. 1153 - COM Port 3 Address Assignment Conflict 2 Short Both external and internal serial ports are assigned to COM3 Run Computer Setup. 1154 - COM Port 4 Address Assignment Conflict 2 Short Both external and internal serial ports are assigned to COM4 Run Computer Setup. 1720 - IntelliSafe Hard Drive detects imminent failure None Hard drive is about to fail Backup contents and replace hard drive. 1771 - Primary Disk Port Address Assignment Conflict 2 Short Internal and External hard drive controllers are both assigned to primary address Run Computer Setup 1772 - Secondary Disk Port Address Assignment Conflict 2 Short Internal and External hard drive controllers are both assigned to secondary address Run Computer Setup 1780 - Disk 0 Failure None Hard drive/format error Run the Configuration and Diagnostics Utilities. 1781 - Disk 1 Failure None Hard drive/format error Run the Configuration and Diagnostics Utilities. 1782 - Disk Controller failure None Hard drive circuitry error Run the Configuration and Diagnostics Utilities. 1790 - Disk 0 Failure None Hard drive or wrong drive type Run the Configuration and Diagnostics Utilities. 1791 - Disk 1 Failure None Hard drive or wrong drive type Run the Configuration and Diagnostics Utilities. 1800 - Temperature Alert None Internal temperature exceeds specification Check that computer air vents are not blocked and cooling fan is running. XX000Y ZZ parity Check 2 None Parity RAM Failure Run the Configuration and Diagnostics Utilities. Hard Drive Parameter Table or BIOS Error System Halted 3 Long Configuration or hardware failure Run the Configuration and Diagnostics Utilities. IOCHECK Active Slot X None Defective board in slot X Run the Configuration and Diagnostics Utilities. Bus Master Timeout Slot X None Defective board in slot X Run the Configuration and Diagnostics Utilities. Audible 1 Short Power-on successful None. Audible 2 Short Power-on successful None. (RESUME = F1 KEY) None As indicated to continue Press the F1 key. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Aug 20 20:04:12 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 18:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? In-Reply-To: <44E904D9.9040509@msm.umr.edu> from jim stephens at "Aug 20, 6 05:56:57 pm" Message-ID: <200608210104.k7L14CNc011186@floodgap.com> > I just unpacked one that had been stored in a reasonable warehouse > environment, > this week, and when I pulled off the keyboard, the insulation sheathing > totally disintegrated. That's what this one did also, but there seems to be additional damage to the wiring inside. I don't think this one was in a "reasonable warehouse environment" ;) > This is pretty much an AT with a 30 or so entry HD table, instead of > just the AT's 15 entry table in the disk extension. > > As such, you need an AT setup disk to set the cmos if it is dead. It should > boot and run either the compaq one, or the standard AT one. If you dont > need > 15 in the drive type, the standard AT will work. A lot of these > had drive type 2, which IIRC is a 20mb. I'm a Mac dweeb, so I have nothing of the sort. Where can I get an image for it? Is this the right one? http://members.driverguide.com/driver/detail.php?driverid=55994 I did try Compaq^WHP's site and while they had the P3 listed, the contents were pretty much laughable. No setup disks either, let alone manuals. > Another thing that concerns me is that you need to say whether you > see floppy activity, either constant (bad ps) or none at all after > you boot up. You should see a floppy seek if you have a floppy > installed, just like an ordinary AT would do. Sorry, I wasn't clear enough -- there is no floppy spin. The light blinks with the front bezel LEDs, but there is no motor activity or seek. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Talkers are no good doers. -- Shakespeare ---------------------------------- From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 20 20:07:05 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 18:07:05 -0700 Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? In-Reply-To: <44E904D9.9040509@msm.umr.edu> References: <200608210045.k7L0jwH1010254@floodgap.com> <44E904D9.9040509@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <44E90739.7050701@dakotacom.net> jim stephens wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>> How do you know the keyboard is "incompletely connected"? >>> I assume that those "few threads" are actually capable of >>> carrying current? >> >> No, I mean, the cable is frayed and wires are open, visible and in >> most places >> partially or totally cut. As in, the cable is barely physically intact. > > I just unpacked one that had been stored in a reasonable warehouse > environment, > this week, and when I pulled off the keyboard, the insulation sheathing > totally disintegrated. This is not A Good Thing. > I think they tried some sort of plastic to make the cable retain the > curl, and it was not very good. > > I have not tested the keyboard, the later suggestion of trying another > standard at is a good one. > > This is pretty much an AT with a 30 or so entry HD table, instead of > just the AT's 15 entry table in the disk extension. > > As such, you need an AT setup disk to set the cmos if it is dead. It > should > boot and run either the compaq one, or the standard AT one. If you dont > need > 15 in the drive type, the standard AT will work. A lot of these > had drive type 2, which IIRC is a 20mb. Ah, I hadn't realized anything other than the Compaq setup/test/install disk worked! > Another thing that concerns me is that you need to say whether you > see floppy activity, either constant (bad ps) or none at all after > you boot up. You should see a floppy seek if you have a floppy > installed, just like an ordinary AT would do. > I *think* the drive door must be closed for it to seek (?). I.e. insert floppy and PUSH the "button" so it stays IN (press again to release/eject) >> I have it connected to AC, so unless it needs the battery to boot >> (*mumble* fricking Mac Portable*mumble*), it shouldn't be that ... > > yes, it needs to have cmos setup program booted from floppy if (since > the battery will be) is dead. > >> Please let me know what you find. The form factor is fascinating, so I >> would love to get it running again. > > They are nice 286 or 386 machines, consume much less than preserving the > equivalent AT pile. I thought the Portable III was strictly a 286. The "Portable 386" was it's lookalike 386 cousin? From reevejd at mchsi.com Sun Aug 20 20:04:20 2006 From: reevejd at mchsi.com (John D. Reeve) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 20:04:20 -0500 Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? References: <200608210049.k7L0na01011140@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <001d01c6c4bd$bcc5f1f0$75f2ce0c@gatewaynotebook> Hi Cameron. I don't know about the POST and the keyboard, but I don't think a bad battery will stop the machine from booting. It WILL complain about not being set-up correctly, but you should be able to boot from the floppy drive anyhow (assuming that is okay). Don is certainly right about the battery - I had to make up something up as a substitute. I'll send details if you're interested. The original battery contains a diode and resistor that are needed in the circuit. Cheers, John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 7:49 PM Subject: Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? >> Hi Cameron. I also have a Portable III and have a suggestion - try >> substituting another keyboard for the one that came with the machine. It >> has a standard AT type keyboard connector hidden a couple of inches >> inside >> the case. You'll need to remove the U-shaped piece of plastic >> surrounding >> the cord to see the connector. If you only have PS/2 type keyboards you >> may >> need to find an adapter. Cheers, John Reeve > > I'll try that. I'll have to dig around for an AT keyboard. > > Would it fail POST like that (I assume this is a POST error) without a > proper keyboard connection? > > -- > --------------------------------- personal: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Furious activity is no substitute for understanding. -- H. H. > Williams ----- From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 20 20:10:44 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 18:10:44 -0700 Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? In-Reply-To: <200608210104.k7L14CNc011186@floodgap.com> References: <200608210104.k7L14CNc011186@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <44E90814.7010507@dakotacom.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I just unpacked one that had been stored in a reasonable warehouse >> environment, >> this week, and when I pulled off the keyboard, the insulation sheathing >> totally disintegrated. > > That's what this one did also, but there seems to be additional damage > to the wiring inside. I don't think this one was in a "reasonable warehouse > environment" ;) > >> This is pretty much an AT with a 30 or so entry HD table, instead of >> just the AT's 15 entry table in the disk extension. >> >> As such, you need an AT setup disk to set the cmos if it is dead. It should >> boot and run either the compaq one, or the standard AT one. If you dont >> need > 15 in the drive type, the standard AT will work. A lot of these >> had drive type 2, which IIRC is a 20mb. > > I'm a Mac dweeb, so I have nothing of the sort. Where can I get an image for > it? Is this the right one? > > http://members.driverguide.com/driver/detail.php?driverid=55994 > > I did try Compaq^WHP's site and while they had the P3 listed, the contents > were pretty much laughable. No setup disks either, let alone manuals. Can you accept ~1MB email attachments? I can forward images to you... though you'd be on your own as to how to get that image onto a *5-1/4"* floppy! >> Another thing that concerns me is that you need to say whether you >> see floppy activity, either constant (bad ps) or none at all after >> you boot up. You should see a floppy seek if you have a floppy >> installed, just like an ordinary AT would do. > > Sorry, I wasn't clear enough -- there is no floppy spin. The light blinks with > the front bezel LEDs, but there is no motor activity or seek. Have you tried this with a disk installed AND THE DOOR "closed"? (button pressed in all the way) From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Aug 20 20:15:40 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 18:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? In-Reply-To: <44E90814.7010507@dakotacom.net> from Don at "Aug 20, 6 06:10:44 pm" Message-ID: <200608210115.k7L1Fe8G015334@floodgap.com> > Can you accept ~1MB email attachments? I can forward images > to you... though you'd be on your own as to how to get that > image onto a *5-1/4"* floppy! Message sent off-list about this. > > Sorry, I wasn't clear enough -- there is no floppy spin. The light blinks > > with the front bezel LEDs, but there is no motor activity or seek. > > Have you tried this with a disk installed AND THE DOOR "closed"? > (button pressed in all the way) Just tried and nothing. It just blinks, no seek or spin. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but the doorjambs need dusting." ------------- From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Aug 20 20:22:30 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 18:22:30 -0700 Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? In-Reply-To: <44E90739.7050701@dakotacom.net> References: <200608210045.k7L0jwH1010254@floodgap.com> <44E904D9.9040509@msm.umr.edu> <44E90739.7050701@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44E90AD6.508@msm.umr.edu> Don wrote: > jim stephens wrote: > >> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >>>> How do you know the keyboard is "incompletely connected"? >>>> I assume that those "few threads" are actually capable of >>>> carrying current? >>> I think you should get a keyboard error number on the screen, so unless the keyboard problem you have has zapped the 5v supply to the keyboard and caused some other collateral damage to the system, you have some other problem as well. >> >> I just unpacked one that had been stored in a reasonable warehouse >> environment, >> this week, and when I pulled off the keyboard, the insulation >> sheathing totally disintegrated. > > > This is not A Good Thing. On mine all the individual wires insulation that was in the bundle seem to be okay. there is a huge amount of fine wire, that flew out, and some shield wrapping, that makes it look worse than it is. I think the actual 5 conductors's insulation survived, not the stupid sheathing that they used to try to make the stiff curled action work. > Ah, I hadn't realized anything other than the Compaq setup/test/install > disk worked! good enough if you have a drive type 2 or 4, which were the most common drive types shipped with it. I customized my bios, to support a 512mb drive, and it requires being able to do up higher. There were some excellent setup utilities that were introduced after the AT was out for a while, whose name escapes me, that could do higher numbers to be compatable with such as the phoenix bios that began to come out then. > I *think* the drive door must be closed for it to seek (?). > I.e. insert floppy and PUSH the "button" so it stays IN > (press again to release/eject) > the drive should spin and seek at least in the 360k and 1.2mb variety, whether a floppy is in it or not. I will make the familiar "growl" due to using a slower than normal seek pulse train when the bios comes up, to be able to baby all forms of floppies. > > I thought the Portable III was strictly a 286. The "Portable 386" > was it's lookalike 386 cousin? Most accessories fit in both, and I think the frame is identical. By the way, the setup disks are on the compaq web site. I'll have to scrounge what I sent to Don Y and send you a link. I have them somewhere also, if you cannot find them. They are on the ftp site, not the normal Hp / Compaq web site. I think there was a search engine over ftp.compaq.com that let you do intelligent searches and hit the setup disks but they seem to be gone. so now all you have is a huge list of "SP's" if I recall that have to be expanded and written to floppy after downloading. and little info as to what is which. However they seem to have a long list of old stuff there. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 20 20:23:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 18:23:13 -0700 Subject: data sheet for com5025 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608201823130768.118643F8@10.0.0.252> On 8/20/2006 at 11:55 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >However, I have seen a 48 pin 5025 that has much the same pinout as >(IIRC) the 7900 -- well, one ethernet chip anyhow. Somewhere I have a >communciations bridge that can take 3 I/O cards. On the mainboard you fit >an 7990 for positions where you have ethernet cards, and a 5025 for the >X21 or X25 cards. I think there's a jumper to set too, but that's it. Yup, that's essentially what the MK5025 datasheet says: "Nearly pin-compatible with the Lance chip (MK7990)". Which is a curious use of the term "compatible"--i.e. the signals are almost the same, the chip functionality is not. Strange but true. Cheers, Chuck From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Aug 20 20:24:23 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 18:24:23 -0700 Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? In-Reply-To: <200608210115.k7L1Fe8G015334@floodgap.com> References: <200608210115.k7L1Fe8G015334@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <44E90B47.70804@msm.umr.edu> Cameron, I would look up the beep codes for the IBM bios. I don't think they are too far different, but I could be wrong. Might be a hint unless someone has an old manual or cheat sheet somewhere that says what 3 beeps is. Jim From useddec at gmail.com Sun Aug 20 20:40:21 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 20:40:21 -0500 Subject: Possible Deliveries to N IL, WI, MN Message-ID: <624966d60608201840o4d174f46xe482f6992a507394@mail.gmail.com> The second or third weekend in Sep;t. I might be going on a trip whhich will take me thru N IL, parts of WI, and close to Minn/St. Paul, MN. If you have any interest in any DEC equipment, including cabinets, disk drives, and PDP 8's, ll's or anything else, I may be able to bring it and eitaher drop off or meet you at a mutual meeting area. Please feel free to contact me off list Thanks, Paul Anderson (217) 586-5361) > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 20 20:47:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 18:47:45 -0700 Subject: 293xx In-Reply-To: <44E8FDC5.30108@gmail.com> References: <44E8FDC5.30108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608201847450218.119CB7C4@10.0.0.252> On 8/20/2006 at 8:26 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Is there anyone around who has datasheets for the AMD Am29300-series >chips, and wouldn't mind scanning them for me? I'm most interested in >the sheets for the Am29331 sequencer and the Am29332 ALU. At the expense of making a complete ass of myself (which I'm getting used to), isn't this what you're looking for? http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/amd/_dataBooks/1988_29C3xx_Series.pdf I didn't download the whole 34 MB of the databook, but it looks like it might fit the bill. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 20 21:25:50 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 22:25:50 -0400 Subject: 293xx In-Reply-To: <200608201847450218.119CB7C4@10.0.0.252> References: <44E8FDC5.30108@gmail.com> <200608201847450218.119CB7C4@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44E919AE.4030203@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/20/2006 at 8:26 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Is there anyone around who has datasheets for the AMD Am29300-series >> chips, and wouldn't mind scanning them for me? I'm most interested in >> the sheets for the Am29331 sequencer and the Am29332 ALU. > > At the expense of making a complete ass of myself (which I'm getting used > to), isn't this what you're looking for? > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/amd/_dataBooks/1988_29C3xx_Series.pdf > > I didn't download the whole 34 MB of the databook, but it looks like it > might fit the bill. Ah. That's the one. I didn't see it when I looked there myself. I must have been smoking something. Thanks a bunch. Peace... Sridhar From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Aug 20 22:52:38 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:52:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: D subminiture connectors Re: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <44E83401.3030200@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200608171703.NAA10423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608181535.09623.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608182026.QAA03104@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608181818.44955.rtellason@verizon.net> <44E83401.3030200@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200608210354.XAA09453@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I seem to recall that HP used a D-shell connector with only three > larger round pins for video on some of their stuff (possibly DE > sized, but I have a feeling it might be slightly larger). 3W3, I forgot about that. I have an Alpha (from the days when DEC was still DEC) that has 3W3 video. It's a DA-size shell. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 20 22:59:33 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:59:33 -0400 Subject: D subminiture connectors Re: Anyone recognize this PCB? In-Reply-To: <200608210354.XAA09453@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200608171703.NAA10423@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608181535.09623.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608182026.QAA03104@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200608181818.44955.rtellason@verizon.net> <44E83401.3030200@yahoo.co.uk> <200608210354.XAA09453@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44E92FA5.1050406@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> I seem to recall that HP used a D-shell connector with only three >> larger round pins for video on some of their stuff (possibly DE >> sized, but I have a feeling it might be slightly larger). > > 3W3, I forgot about that. I have an Alpha (from the days when DEC was > still DEC) that has 3W3 video. It's a DA-size shell. Not just DEC. IBM uses it too. Peace... Sridhar From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Aug 20 22:59:02 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 23:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608210401.AAA12889@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> Did you notice how I signed my name on that message? >> You signed it "De ARD", correct? I assumed it was a ham radio >> reference. > No, Dr ARD. I went back and checked (I keep all my received mail for nine weeks). You may have intended to write "Dr ARD", but the copy that hit *my* mailbox quite clearly says "De ARD" (and that's a cut-and-paste, not a ten-finger copy). You may even have actually written "Dr ARD" for all I know, though I'm then at a loss to explain why that's not what I got. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 20 23:08:01 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:08:01 -0700 Subject: data sheet for com5025 In-Reply-To: <200608201157030943.1024BADF@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: data sheet for com5025 >Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 11:57:03 -0700 > >On 8/20/2006 at 2:34 PM Dave McGuire wrote: > > > The COM5025 is mostly compatible with the 2652, but not completely. > >Both are 16-bit parts. I have info about it in a book here...My > >scanner is having problems so I can't scan it, but I can type stuff up > >from the book if you need it. Let me know. > >Isn't the Mostek MK5025 a compatible part? IIRC, it can be used on either >an 8 or 16 bit bus. > >http://www.tranzistoare.ro/datasheets/restul/502155_DS.pdf Hi Chuck I just checked schematic I have and the MK5025 isn't the same. The part I have is a 40 pin part, not 48 :( Being compatable with the 2652 might be right after all. Even though used in a 8 bit machine, the schematic shows d0-d15. I'll have to look at things a little more. The part is used on a floppy controller for hard sectored double density floppies. It is a little unusual but that is what it is used for. I've not been able to get firmware for it yet so I've been thinking of writing something my self. I have some prerecoreded DD floppies to read from. I suspect it takes advantage of the various packet features, like CRC. Dwight > >I've also got the 7990 Lance datasheets in printed form, which is >supposedly also compatible. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Sun Aug 20 23:15:08 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:15:08 -0700 Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? In-Reply-To: <44E90AD6.508@msm.umr.edu> References: <200608210045.k7L0jwH1010254@floodgap.com> <44E904D9.9040509@msm.umr.edu> <44E90739.7050701@dakotacom.net> <44E90AD6.508@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <44E9334C.8090203@dakotacom.net> jim stephens wrote: > Don wrote: > >> jim stephens wrote: >> >>> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> >>>>> How do you know the keyboard is "incompletely connected"? >>>>> I assume that those "few threads" are actually capable of >>>>> carrying current? > > I think you should get a keyboard error number on the screen, so unless the > keyboard problem you have has zapped the 5v supply to the keyboard > and caused some other collateral damage to the system, you have some > other problem as well. IIRC, a dead CMOS battery can lead to all sorts of weird behaviours. I know I almost discarded mine originally because it *appeared* dead... >>> I just unpacked one that had been stored in a reasonable warehouse >>> environment, >>> this week, and when I pulled off the keyboard, the insulation >>> sheathing totally disintegrated. >> >> This is not A Good Thing. > > On mine all the individual wires insulation that was in the bundle > seem to be okay. there is a huge amount of fine wire, that flew > out, and some shield wrapping, that makes it look worse than > it is. I think the actual 5 conductors's insulation survived, not > the stupid sheathing that they used to try to make the stiff curled > action work. I think the only problem you might have with a *replacement* coiled cord would be the short distance from the *plug* that the coils begin. Most coiled cords that I have come across tend to have a long-ish uncoiled portion adjacent to the plug. (I should measure this and keep it handy when digging through salvage as I could possibly come up with a suitable replacement -- you may have to "adjust" the portion inside the keyboard but that's relatively easy) >> Ah, I hadn't realized anything other than the Compaq setup/test/install >> disk worked! > > good enough if you have a drive type 2 or 4, which were the most common > drive types shipped with it. > > I customized my bios, to support a 512mb drive, and it requires being > able to do up higher. There were some excellent setup utilities that were > introduced after the AT was out for a while, whose name escapes me, > that could do higher numbers to be compatable with such as the phoenix > bios that began to come out then. I've emailed three different versions of the setup/test/inspect floppies. The versions I have that are newer than those I emailed are 1.44M images so I think that's a problem for the portable iii. >> I thought the Portable III was strictly a 286. The "Portable 386" >> was it's lookalike 386 cousin? > > Most accessories fit in both, and I think the frame is identical. Ah, so they are similar internally? The Posrtable 386 is obviously more desirable beast... At the very least, I would assume you can stuff more than the 6.6MB max RAM that the portable 3 handles. :-( > By the way, the setup disks are on the compaq web site. I'll have > to scrounge what I sent to Don Y and send you a link. I have them > somewhere also, if you cannot find them. I made a copy of the Portable 3 related stuff some years ago so let me know if you can't find something. > They are on the ftp site, not the normal Hp / Compaq web site. Yes, that rings a bell. > I think there was a search engine over ftp.compaq.com that let you > do intelligent searches and hit the setup disks but they seem to be > gone. so now all you have is a huge list of "SP's" if I recall that > have to be expanded and written to floppy after downloading. > > and little info as to what is which. > > However they seem to have a long list of old stuff there. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 20 23:37:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:37:37 -0700 Subject: data sheet for com5025 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608202137370233.12383ACD@10.0.0.252> On 8/20/2006 at 9:08 PM dwight elvey wrote: >The part is used on a floppy controller for hard sectored double density >floppies. It is a little unusual but that is what it is used for. Not that unusual! I've used a 2651 USART on a floppy controller. Used a 9914 data separator and the USART handshaking lines for drive control. Worked just fine. Wasn't terribly hard to program either. IIRC, some of the USRTs will not include SYN characters in the CRC (if it computes one for you), so you may have use a bit of software for your CRCs. Where the USRT shines is in detecting the bit pattern (address mark) that signifies the start of a sector. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 20 23:48:20 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:48:20 -0700 Subject: data sheet for com5025 In-Reply-To: <200608201218030086.1037F159@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >Here's the 2652 data sheet, which looks to be quite different from the >MK5025 > >http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/19132/PHILIPS/SCN2652AC2A44. >html > > Hi It looks like this is the part. I just didn't realize that it could be a 16 or 8 bit bus connection. Dwight From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Aug 20 23:55:31 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 04:55:31 +0000 Subject: data sheet for com5025 In-Reply-To: <200608201157030943.1024BADF@10.0.0.252> References: <983d9dc5c22a2ecd38949411ee9827b4@neurotica.com> <200608201157030943.1024BADF@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 8/20/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Isn't the Mostek MK5025 a compatible part? IIRC, it can be used on either > an 8 or 16 bit bus. > > http://www.tranzistoare.ro/datasheets/restul/502155_DS.pdf There's a pinout and some sample code for the PDP-11 in the DPV-11 (M8020) manual... http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/EK-DPV11-TM-002_Nov80.pdf -ethan From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Aug 20 16:33:59 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 14:33:59 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E890D0.3090104@arachelian.com> References: <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> <44E6AC62.8090503@msu.edu> <44E79250.4090909@dakotacom.net> <44E79904.6040506@arachelian.com> <44E79C65.4070102@msu.edu> <44E890D0.3090104@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44E8D547.8020601@msu.edu> Well, I seem to have struck a nerve here, now haven't I? I was intending my comment to be mostly tongue-in-cheek, but I guess I failed on that count. Next time I'll use more smileys. > The problem is that in Java, you can get > away with allocating gobs of memory without having to free it, and > justify it with "Oh, the GC will clear it for me" however that attitude > does not work when dealing with JDBC connections, or file handles. So your argument seems to be that the experience to know that JDBC and file handles are the exception to the rule is necessary here. No argument there. It's an unfortunate issue with the language (or it may be an unfortunate issue with the way the JDBC libraries are written). The same mistakes can be made in any other language that lacks a GC. > So, while you might be able to get away with writing sloppy memory > allocation code in Java, How does one write memory allocation code in Java? As far as I know, there's really only one interface to it and it's provided by the runtime. If you're talking about being wasteful with memory, that's one thing... but you can be wasteful with memory in any language with no skill involved. > I pointed at C and assembly as examples of languages that lack garbage > collection. Because they lack this "feature", they therefore enforce > writing of better code, or force you to face much earlier crashes, > and/or a clear growth of memory footprint over time. I posit that you can write crappy code in any language and still get away with it. Hell, I'd say it's a lot easier to write crappy code in C. The things I've seen done with pointers... ugh. As for C _enforcing_ writing better code (solely due to lack of a GC?) -- you're kidding right? It enforces _knowledgeable_ programmers to be 100 times more careful (and the key here is _knowledgeable_) , but it won't prevent _anyone_ from shooting themselves in the foot without even knowing it even if they think they are being careful (buffer overruns, invalid pointers, etc). That's why this thead about stack-smashing got started in the first place, eons ago... > With Java, the memory footprint climbs up and down over time as the GC > is invoked, and if the GC has to do a lot of work, the JVM freezes, and > many memory leaks you may have are masked by the GC. You don't really > know if you have a leak or not until it's too late (when you see your > JVM has a 2GB footprint and is doing GC's that take over 60 seconds to > complete), and even then, its difficult to locate it amongst several > thousand threads. I don't know about Java specifically, but I know that for C# there are profiling tools to help you nail down memory leaks when they occur. I assume that these also exist for Java. If you're looking for memory leaks solely based on memory footprint of the process, then yes, you're going to have problems. > I do think that it is proper to blame every language for all of their > shortcomings I agree with the sentiment, but I still disagree that "inexperienced programmers" is a shortcoming of the language. I can see every programming language on earth falling into this bucket. > - please do not pretend to hold some sort of high moral > ground by claiming to uphold a language as some sort of godly > perfection, while in the same breath, you have turned up your nose at > the idea of writing threaded database connectivity drivers in "raw" > assembly. I have done no such thing. I merely sought to point out a flaw in a proposition you made -- that it would be better to replace easily maintainable/portable (in the _right hands_) code written in a high-level language, dealing with high-level concepts (database access, multithreading) with hand-built assembly code. And you propose doing this _only_ because it somehow magically causes people to make fewer mistakes with memory allocation. I don't think this is a reasonable argument. There is a place for assembly code, but I don't believe this particular case is one of them. I'd also argue that one can make many more mistakes much more easily in assembly, even if one manages to allocate memory correctly. I think the argument you're really making here is that _experienced_ programmers (ones who have dealt with low-level languages like assembly and C) know the pitfalls of memory allocation, file handles, performance issues, etc... and as such could make much better use of Java. What you're really saying is that you need to hire better programmers, and that some programmers need to be better educated in computer architecture. > But don't fail to call out the flaws where you find > them - even if they happen to be in a favored or popular language. > I don't necessarily disagree. All languages have issues. What I disagree with is your earlier claim that rewriting code better suited for high-level languages in assembly is some sort of magic bullet that would somehow reduce programmer error. If you gave the same Java coder who's borking up the JDBC connections the task to rewrite it in assembly I doubt very much that person would come up with an error-free implementation in a reasonable timeframe. I think it would be far more productive to sit down with the coder, beat him with a LART and explain that JDBC and File handles need to be closed (and why!). Josh From dm.hunt at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 20 22:55:58 2006 From: dm.hunt at ntlworld.com (David Hunt) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 04:55:58 +0100 Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? In-Reply-To: <200608202339.k7KNd8hK012142@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <000601c6c4d5$b741d1a0$3201a8c0@hal> > I think this one is on-topic. I got a Compaq Portable III > dumped on my doorstep (more or less literally, actually), and > while I don't really collect PCs, this one's form factor > fascinated me. However, it seems like it's failing POST or > its equivalent -- when I turn it on, the caps lock light on > the keyboard (literally hanging on by a few threads) blinks, > then the three lights on the front bezel and the 5.25" floppy > light blink three times accompanied by three beeps from what > appears to be the power supply?, and it just sits there, > doing three beeps pause three beeps pause ..., until I turn it off. > > Nothing else spins up and nothing shows on the screen, even > with me messing with the contrast. Any suggestions, or is > there a troubleshooting manual to give me some starting > points to see if I can refurbish this? Is the fact that the > keyboard is probably incompletely connected to blame? I had the same problem with my Portable 386 because the PSU died, when I disconnected the hard drive it started up ok. All I've got left of it is a pile of spare parts, e.g. mem board, Weitek etc. I don't know how different it is from the Portable III. The CMOS battery lasted around 12 years, so I'm not too bothered about replacing it with another (although expensive) lithium. Anyone in the UK who has one they don't want... It's a fun (small) way of having a 386DX PC, with the expansion box you can have SVGA, SCSI and Ethernet connectivity. Mind you Netscape/IE3.31 on Win 3.11 is like watching paint dry in the rain. Dave ;) From darin.lory at gmail.com Mon Aug 21 01:16:22 2006 From: darin.lory at gmail.com (Darin Lory) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 02:16:22 -0400 Subject: Anyone have an Apple Modem 1200 or 300 manual? Message-ID: <544fa56f0608202316p1f39fec3j6b85e153fe0c876a@mail.gmail.com> Ray, There is a good list of AT commands at http://docs.kde.org/stable/en/kdenetwork/kppp/appendix-hayes-commands.html The ATI9 will return the Apple product code and firmware version of the modem. Check out http://www.tidbits.com/iskm/modems.html#aa7 for the Apple/Hayes AT commands. -Darin Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:15:16 -0400 From: Ray Arachelian Subject: Anyone have an Apple Modem 1200 or 300 manual? To: cctech at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <44E74724.2040706 at arachelian.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I'm wondering if this was a Hayes compatible modem, and if so what the result strings were for various commands such as just "AT" by itself, and "ATI", "ATI0" and so on. From josefcub at gmail.com Mon Aug 21 01:21:43 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 01:21:43 -0500 Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? In-Reply-To: <000601c6c4d5$b741d1a0$3201a8c0@hal> References: <200608202339.k7KNd8hK012142@floodgap.com> <000601c6c4d5$b741d1a0$3201a8c0@hal> Message-ID: <9e2403920608202321t2325cdf2n6538b782403f5a44@mail.gmail.com> > I had the same problem with my Portable 386 because the PSU died, when I > disconnected the hard drive it started up ok. All I've got left of it is a > pile of spare parts, e.g. mem board, Weitek etc. I don't know how different > it is from the Portable III. The CMOS battery lasted around 12 years, so I'm > not too bothered about replacing it with another (although expensive) > lithium. I've been fortunate with my P/386... Found it at a Goodwill, as a rebranded "Network General Sniffer" box ($20!) with the backpack containing old thinnet and token ring cards... After putting the cards up safe, adding a modern 10bT card, archiving the operating software (DOS and Network General OEM software), adding a 387, and installing a Linux CLI (6MB of RAM), it's been a pretty sweet terminal/compiler/toy box... *knocks on wood* My CMOS battery is still good, as is the 40MB Connor HDD. Long live the good years of Compaq! ...Josef PS: And praise the Gods this one still worked after I reassembled it, not like my last Portable III. -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From lists at groll.co.za Mon Aug 21 03:36:46 2006 From: lists at groll.co.za (Jonathan Groll) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:36:46 +0200 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060821004732.050a5168@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> References: <44E855DB.5090709@yahoo.co.uk> <7.0.1.0.0.20060820124256.050a4ed8@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> <44E870B0.5000404@yahoo.co.uk> <20060820135106.238FDBA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <7.0.1.0.0.20060821004732.050a5168@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <20060821083646.GB6722@groll.co.za> On Mon, Aug 21, 2006 at 12:53:47AM +0100, Rob O'Donnell wrote: > I bought and built the ZX81 kit, and only later inherited the ZX80 I > still have. I really wish I'd not got rid of the '81 now - I had > several, in the end, with loads of accessories, and I swapped it all > for something so inconsequential that I can't even remember what it was, > now.. It is all quite tragic actually, we all wish we hadn't gotten rid of them, yet those who do still own them keep 'em in the cupboard and maybe pull them out once a year to look at... I'd be too scared to overuse the membrane keyboard on an aged model, and for what purpose - 1k chess anyone? Jonathan From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Mon Aug 21 06:57:54 2006 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:57:54 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <001e01c6c46c$e33e49a0$3201a8c0@hal> References: <44E870B0.5000404@yahoo.co.uk> <001e01c6c46c$e33e49a0$3201a8c0@hal> Message-ID: <11c909eb0608210457u463a56b3pff7077eaa3745bb6@mail.gmail.com> > > I don't > remember that much about the ZX80, apart from the regulator kept cutting > out > and eventually went pop. My Father spent a couple of evenings making up a > decent stabilised PSU for it. > Yet again classiccmp triggers a Proustian moment of nostalgia for me :) This time it's that if you so much as looked at the 16K RAM pack funny the connection was so crappy there would be a huge flicker on the TV screen and everything would be... gone. Happy days. -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 21 07:40:10 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 08:40:10 -0400 Subject: 293xx In-Reply-To: <44E8FDC5.30108@gmail.com> References: <44E8FDC5.30108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dad9e9a67fdcedd9269bb0f72bd7623@neurotica.com> On Aug 20, 2006, at 8:26 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Is there anyone around who has datasheets for the AMD Am29300-series > chips, and wouldn't mind scanning them for me? I'm most interested in > the sheets for the Am29331 sequencer and the Am29332 ALU. Mmmm, droooool. The Am29325 is the ALU we used in the supercomputer at Princeton that I described here a few days ago. What wonderful chips they are...I wish I could find a handful of them, or I hope to build up my Verilog skills to the point where I could roll my own in an FPGA. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Aug 21 08:55:18 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 06:55:18 -0700 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0608210457u463a56b3pff7077eaa3745bb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >From: "Pete Edwards" > >> >>I don't >>remember that much about the ZX80, apart from the regulator kept cutting >>out >>and eventually went pop. My Father spent a couple of evenings making up a >>decent stabilised PSU for it. >> >Yet again classiccmp triggers a Proustian moment of nostalgia for me :) >This >time it's >that if you so much as looked at the 16K RAM pack funny the connection was >so crappy there would be a huge flicker on the TV screen and everything >would be... gone. >Happy days. > > Hi I put some DC#4 silicon grease on the connector pins and one could bounce the unit on the table without causing it to drop connections. Most of the problem was caused by dissimilar materials. The boards were just solderplate pins. Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Aug 21 09:09:41 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 07:09:41 -0700 Subject: data sheet for com5025 In-Reply-To: <35beec4cc0b6d97a8bc6fa6c1c3fe1ce@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >From: Dave McGuire >> >On Aug 20, 2006, at 3:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>Here's the 2652 data sheet, which looks to be quite different from the >>MK5025 >> >>http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/19132/PHILIPS/ >>SCN2652AC2A44. >>html > > The docs I have here say the COM5025 was intended to be compatible with >the 2652, or at least mostly so, for both hardware and software. A >cursory glance at the pinouts shows them to be the same except, I think, >pin 1. I haven't looked at any of the programming info. > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Cape Coral, FL > Hi Dave This must be the right one. The schematic I have shows a jumper option to either a plup or +12v, on pin 1. Dwight From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Aug 21 09:24:34 2006 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:24:34 -0400 Subject: Original boxes... Message-ID: Just wondering whether other collectors try to acquire original boxes to go with their machines. I have several original Ohio Scientific boxes that I prize as part of my collection. Anyway, I just got a nice Koyo 9 inch monitor (built 1979, IMSAI blue) in an IBM PS/2 Color Display 8515 box. I know that there are a few PS/2 collectors on the list. The box is not in the best shape, but it isn't awful either. Anybody interested in it or should I pitch it? Located in the Maryland suburbs of Washington, DC. Bill -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release Date: 8/18/2006 From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Aug 21 09:54:06 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:54:06 -0400 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44E8AC9E.9020607@dakotacom.net> References: <44E79904.6040506@arachelian.com> <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> <44E6AC62.8090503@msu.edu> <44E79250.4090909@dakotacom.net> <44E79904.6040506@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060821105145.0515ced0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Don may have mentioned these words: >E.g., if I want "I" to represent *amps* -- as a real -- and >"A" to represent *artichokes* -- an *integer* I'm not sure why you'd need to track how many amps you're passing thru artichokes, but remind me never to eat supper at your house!!! ;^> Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 21 11:01:49 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:01:49 -0400 Subject: 293xx In-Reply-To: <6dad9e9a67fdcedd9269bb0f72bd7623@neurotica.com> References: <44E8FDC5.30108@gmail.com> <6dad9e9a67fdcedd9269bb0f72bd7623@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44E9D8ED.8000001@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Aug 20, 2006, at 8:26 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Is there anyone around who has datasheets for the AMD Am29300-series >> chips, and wouldn't mind scanning them for me? I'm most interested in >> the sheets for the Am29331 sequencer and the Am29332 ALU. > > Mmmm, droooool. The Am29325 is the ALU we used in the supercomputer > at Princeton that I described here a few days ago. What wonderful chips > they are...I wish I could find a handful of them, or I hope to build up > my Verilog skills to the point where I could roll my own in an FPGA. I just got my hands on four 29332's. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 21 11:03:11 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:03:11 -0400 Subject: Original boxes... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E9D93F.3010803@gmail.com> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Just wondering whether other collectors try to acquire > original boxes to go with their machines. I have several > original Ohio Scientific boxes that I prize as part of > my collection. Anyway, I just got a nice Koyo 9 inch > monitor (built 1979, IMSAI blue) in an IBM PS/2 Color > Display 8515 box. I know that there are a few PS/2 > collectors on the list. The box is not in the best > shape, but it isn't awful either. Anybody interested in > it or should I pitch it? Located in the Maryland suburbs > of Washington, DC. I have a whole bunch of original PS/2 boxes. I store PS/2's in them. 8-) I still have the box to the PS/2 Model 50 I bought back in December 1987. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 21 11:19:03 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:19:03 -0600 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060821105145.0515ced0@mail.30below.com> References: <44E79904.6040506@arachelian.com> <200608190211.k7J2BY8a020945@mwave.heeltoe.com> <44E6AC62.8090503@msu.edu> <44E79250.4090909@dakotacom.net> <44E79904.6040506@arachelian.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060821105145.0515ced0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <44E9DCF7.9050103@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > I'm not sure why you'd need to track how many amps you're passing thru > artichokes, but remind me never to eat supper at your house!!! ;^> It is pickiles that require the amps not artichokes. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/pickle.html From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 21 11:24:34 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:24:34 -0400 Subject: Original boxes... In-Reply-To: <44E9D93F.3010803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000701c6c53e$4a2e7280$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Many of my handhelds and laptops are in the original boxes, and those are some of my favorites. A few weeks ago I got a TI CC-40 (not terribly rare, but still interesting) which not only had the original boxes and documentation, but it wasn't even previously used -- it still had the protectice tape over the LCD screen. Same deal with a Kyocera/Qualcomm PDA smartphone that I bought for a friend overseas. That one's a bit OT (late 1990s) but it is still exciting to get new-in-box gear. -----Original Message----- From: Sridhar Ayengar [mailto:ploopster at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 12:03 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Original boxes... Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Just wondering whether other collectors try to acquire original boxes > to go with their machines. I have several original Ohio Scientific > boxes that I prize as part of my collection. Anyway, I just got a > nice Koyo 9 inch monitor (built 1979, IMSAI blue) in an IBM PS/2 Color > Display 8515 box. I know that there are a few PS/2 collectors on the > list. The box is not in the best shape, but it isn't awful either. > Anybody interested in it or should I pitch it? Located in the > Maryland suburbs of Washington, DC. I have a whole bunch of original PS/2 boxes. I store PS/2's in them. 8-) I still have the box to the PS/2 Model 50 I bought back in December 1987. Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 21 11:39:21 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <200608210401.AAA12889@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200608210401.AAA12889@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20060821093743.R35730@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 20 Aug 2006, der Mouse wrote: > I went back and checked (I keep all my received mail for nine weeks). > You may have intended to write "Dr ARD", but the copy that hit *my* > mailbox quite clearly says "De ARD" (and that's a cut-and-paste, not a > ten-finger copy). You may even have actually written "Dr ARD" for all > I know, though I'm then at a loss to explain why that's not what I got. Ah, but the real point is that PhD's don't make misteaks, certainly not spelling ones. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred (UC Berkeley aluminum) From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Aug 21 11:45:44 2006 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 11:45:44 -0500 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) Message-ID: <20060821164544.QCAA18124.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> > Ah, but the real point is that PhD's don't make misteaks, > certainly not spelling ones. Hey! I resemble that remark. :-) BLS From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 21 11:46:09 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:46:09 -0400 Subject: bad keyboard wires Message-ID: <200608211246.09800.rtellason@verizon.net> Just a thought on this subject -- do pretty many of these boxes have that _fuse_ that I've seen mention of in some contexts, which would kill the +5V to the keyboard if the old one had that bad of a cable? Something that may end up needing to consider here, depending o how bad that original cable was. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From Watzman at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 21 12:23:18 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 13:23:18 -0400 Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? In-Reply-To: <200608211700.k7LH0dsJ002892@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <008801c6c546$7ea62c80$6400a8c0@barry> I have a Compaq Portable III here, worked the last time it was powered (years ago), may or may not still work. I also have a file called "SP0316.ZIP" that contains "SP0316.exe" which, I THINK, is a utility (service pack) that makes the setup disk for the Portable III. However, it needs to run on a PC with a 360k 5.25" floppy drive. I THINK. From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Aug 21 12:28:41 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 13:28:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Original boxes... In-Reply-To: <000701c6c53e$4a2e7280$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <20060821172841.C57B458532@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Evan Koblentz > > Many of my handhelds and laptops are in the original boxes, and those are > some of my favorites. A few weeks ago I got a TI CC-40 (not terribly rare, > but still interesting) which not only had the original boxes and > documentation, but it wasn't even previously used -- it still had the > protectice tape over the LCD screen. Same deal with a Kyocera/Qualcomm PDA > smartphone that I bought for a friend overseas. That one's a bit OT (late > 1990s) but it is still exciting to get new-in-box gear. > One of the PETs I have was either never used or was repaired by Commodore and then never used as it is still in a sealed plastic bag with a blue Commodore logo all over it. I had to throw away the original box it came in as it was blackened and decomposing from having been wet by the person I got it from. :( Cheers, Bryan From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 21 12:31:38 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 13:31:38 -0400 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <20060821093743.R35730@shell.lmi.net> References: <200608210401.AAA12889@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060821093743.R35730@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <44E9EDFA.8080109@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 20 Aug 2006, der Mouse wrote: >> I went back and checked (I keep all my received mail for nine weeks). >> You may have intended to write "Dr ARD", but the copy that hit *my* >> mailbox quite clearly says "De ARD" (and that's a cut-and-paste, not a >> ten-finger copy). You may even have actually written "Dr ARD" for all >> I know, though I'm then at a loss to explain why that's not what I got. > > Ah, but the real point is that PhD's don't make misteaks, > certainly not spelling ones. Look, I think there's been a mistake. Did you say "steak"? Peace... Sridhar From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Mon Aug 21 12:33:35 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 18:33:35 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions References: <44E870B0.5000404@yahoo.co.uk> <001e01c6c46c$e33e49a0$3201a8c0@hal> <11c909eb0608210457u463a56b3pff7077eaa3745bb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c501c6c547$ee7913a0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> From: "Pete Edwards" > Yet again classiccmp triggers a Proustian moment of nostalgia for me :) This > time it's > that if you so much as looked at the 16K RAM pack funny the connection was > so crappy there would be a huge flicker on the TV screen and everything > would be... gone. Blutak, lots and lots of Blutak............ Jim. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Aug 21 12:45:39 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:45:39 -0700 Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? In-Reply-To: <008801c6c546$7ea62c80$6400a8c0@barry> References: <008801c6c546$7ea62c80$6400a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <44E9F143.3070907@msm.umr.edu> Barry Watzman wrote: >I have a Compaq Portable III here, worked the last time it was powered >(years ago), may or may not still work. I also have a file called >"SP0316.ZIP" that contains "SP0316.exe" which, I THINK, is a utility >(service pack) that makes the setup disk for the Portable III. However, it >needs to run on a PC with a 360k 5.25" floppy drive. > >I THINK. > > try the url(s) description: ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/softpaq/sp0000-0500/sp0316.txt download above ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/softpaq/sp0000-0500/sp0316.zip SOFTPAQ NUMBER: SP0316.ZIP PART NUMBER: N/A FILE NAME: SP0316.EXE TITLE: SETUP/DIAGNOSTICS Version 8.00 Revision B VERSION: 8.00 LANGUAGE: English CATEGORY: Diagnostics-Setup DIVISION: All PC's PRODUCTS AFFECTED: COMPAQ Portable, COMPAQ DESKPRO, COMPAQ DESKPRO 286, COMPAQ PORTABLE 286, COMPAQ PORTABLE II, COMPAQ PORTABLE III, COMPAQ PORTABLE 386, COMPAQ DESKPRO 386, COMPAQ DESKPRO 386/20, COMPAQ DESKPRO 386/25 From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 21 13:02:48 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 11:02:48 -0700 Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? In-Reply-To: <44E9F143.3070907@msm.umr.edu> References: <008801c6c546$7ea62c80$6400a8c0@barry> <44E9F143.3070907@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <44E9F548.5080404@dakotacom.net> jim stephens wrote: > Barry Watzman wrote: > >> I have a Compaq Portable III here, worked the last time it was powered >> (years ago), may or may not still work. I also have a file called >> "SP0316.ZIP" that contains "SP0316.exe" which, I THINK, is a utility >> (service pack) that makes the setup disk for the Portable III. >> However, it >> needs to run on a PC with a 360k 5.25" floppy drive. >> >> I THINK. >> >> > try the url(s) > > description: > > ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/softpaq/sp0000-0500/sp0316.txt > download above > > ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/softpaq/sp0000-0500/sp0316.zip > > SOFTPAQ NUMBER: SP0316.ZIP > PART NUMBER: N/A > FILE NAME: SP0316.EXE > TITLE: SETUP/DIAGNOSTICS Version 8.00 Revision B VERSION: 8.00 > > LANGUAGE: English > > CATEGORY: Diagnostics-Setup > > DIVISION: All PC's > > PRODUCTS AFFECTED: COMPAQ Portable, COMPAQ DESKPRO, COMPAQ DESKPRO 286, > COMPAQ PORTABLE 286, COMPAQ PORTABLE II, COMPAQ PORTABLE III, COMPAQ > PORTABLE 386, COMPAQ DESKPRO 386, COMPAQ DESKPRO 386/20, > COMPAQ DESKPRO 386/25 I think 8.00 is the *last* that will fit on a 5" floppy. 8.04 requires 3" floppies -- though I haven't checked to see if the extra 0.24M actually has any significant *content* (e.g., it could just be part of INSPECT. N.B. I've already emailed 3 versions (6.something, 7.0 and 8.00) to the OP -- though *this* SP probably self-extracts under *DOS* (the versions I emailed required windows for extraction) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 21 13:04:29 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 11:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Compaq Portable III fails POST? In-Reply-To: <44E9F548.5080404@dakotacom.net> References: <008801c6c546$7ea62c80$6400a8c0@barry> <44E9F143.3070907@msm.umr.edu> <44E9F548.5080404@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <20060821110317.J35730@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 21 Aug 2006, Don wrote: > I think 8.00 is the *last* that will fit on a 5" floppy. > 8.04 requires 3" floppies -- though I haven't checked to see if 3.5" I used 3" drives with a Compaq, but eventually switched to 3.5" From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 21 13:10:35 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 11:10:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - yeah, right!) In-Reply-To: <44E9EDFA.8080109@gmail.com> References: <200608210401.AAA12889@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20060821093743.R35730@shell.lmi.net> <44E9EDFA.8080109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060821110828.D35730@shell.lmi.net> > > Ah, but the real point is that PhD's don't make misteaks, > > certainly not spelling ones. On Mon, 21 Aug 2006, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Look, I think there's been a mistake. > Did you say "steak"? > How rigid, or how skilled we are, with spellinq may be related to what schools we are aluminiums of. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 21 14:14:00 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 19:14:00 +0000 Subject: Possible Deliveries to N IL, WI, MN In-Reply-To: <624966d60608201840o4d174f46xe482f6992a507394@mail.gmail.com> References: <624966d60608201840o4d174f46xe482f6992a507394@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44EA05F8.4060307@yahoo.co.uk> Paul Anderson wrote: > The second or third weekend in Sep;t. I might be going on a trip whhich > will > take me thru N IL, parts of WI, and close to Minn/St. Paul, MN. If you > have > any interest in any DEC equipment, including cabinets, disk drives, and PDP > 8's, ll's or anything else, I may be able to bring it and eitaher drop off > or meet you at a mutual meeting area. Eeek, don't say that - I'll be passing through the Cities on the second week of sept. myself; missus would kill me if I showed up with a PDP rack! :-) -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 21 13:13:27 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 11:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <20060821164544.QCAA18124.ibm60aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> from "Brian L. Stuart" at "Aug 21, 6 11:45:44 am" Message-ID: <200608211813.k7LIDRvg018934@floodgap.com> > > Ah, but the real point is that PhD's don't make misteaks, > > certainly not spelling ones. > > Hey! I resemble that remark. :-) As an MD I don't have to worry about that. No one can read my writing anyway. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Doesn't everyone cry when Vin Diesel tries to act? -- Impact Alberto, CAA -- From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 21 14:29:10 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 19:29:10 +0000 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44EA0986.50205@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > I bought an MK14 back when it was current. That put me off Sinclair for > life... Out of interest, what was so bad about them that wasn't typical of that class of machine around that time? Admittedly without having been involved at the time, it seems with hindsight that there were an awful lot of similar machines around that sort of era with odd design quirks, very limited power, poor-quality PCBs etc. >> I was hooked... Mind you I had the same hassle with my Acorn Atom kit too, >> many owners of expanded Acorn Atom systems will tell you of the roasting >> regulator on their boards. > > I seem to remmember you were supposed to fit a zecond regulator (7805) > and cut a link if you expaneded the Atom. Then each regulator powered > about half of the machine. The construction guide says: "both regulators and a heatsink should be fitted to all Atoms". I've never seen one with only a single regulator, but doubtless a few individuals building from kits tried it. The manual gives the minimal system with 2KB of memory as around 750mA draw, so that's within the capabilities of some 7805 variants and not others... More common is that the regulators have been bypassed or removed entirely and an external supply is used. It's rare-ish to find an Atom with regulators and heatsink still intact (maybe 25% are like this). Rarer still is to find an Atom using an external supply where someone's actually done as the manual says and indicated on the back that the machine's wired for 5V regulated input rather than 8V unregulated - I expect there are a lot of toasted Atoms still floating around! cheers J. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 21 14:37:47 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 19:37:47 +0000 Subject: Original boxes... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44EA0B8B.6040809@yahoo.co.uk> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Just wondering whether other collectors try to acquire > original boxes to go with their machines. As an individual: Depends on the space and the cost :) I quite like the original packaging when I have the room to store it - but at the same time I don't agree with the apparent trend of original packaging somehow doubling a machine's worth. It's the machine / docs / software itself that's the important bit, not whatever cardboard it came in. Personally I class packaging as ephemera, and low-down on the interest scale (I'd rather see period posters and other advertising info for the machine in question, for instance). With museum hat on: Seems more important to hang onto it in this case, as if we don't then there's no guarantee that a private individual will. (We were given a lovely boxed Enterprise 128 at the weekend, complete with masses of leaflets, magazine clippings, posters, branded bags, hats etc. Fantastic stuff!) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 21 14:48:35 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 19:48:35 +0000 Subject: One for classiccmp.org? (was: Re: Archived a few PERQ games...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44EA0E13.3070006@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> (on the PC this time) to read in the disk image and dump the directory >> structure and files to disk without too many hairy issues. (The utility >> and all the files on the disk are now on my website at >> http://yahozna.dhs.org/computers/software/PERQ). > > I really must find time to look at that... Hmm, random thought, but does it make sense to have a list on classiccmp.org of what preservation work (in terms of utilities, procedures etc.) has been done for various machines? It doesn't even necessarily need to be a maintained list of links - just recording the fact e.g. that someone out there has successfully hacked something to recover data off system xyz would be useful. I tend to find that sort of level of info isn't so readily available via google, and often am too busy to be able to wade through a few dozen enthusiast sites in order to see what people have come up with already... cheers Jules From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Aug 21 14:25:13 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 20:25:13 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 21 Aug 2006 19:29:10 -0000." <44EA0986.50205@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200608211925.UAA07504@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jules Richardson said: > Tony Duell wrote: > > I bought an MK14 back when it was current. That put me off Sinclair for > > life... > > Out of interest, what was so bad about them that wasn't typical of that class > of machine around that time? Admittedly without having been involved at the > time, it seems with hindsight that there were an awful lot of similar machines I never had any problems with my Mk14 (which I've still got and it still works), an issue 2 board. The keypad was trouble right from the start and was immediately replaced with a modified telephone one, and it's worked fine ever since. The cassete interface, however, was a different matter, it would shed print if you just looked at it funny with a soldering iron. Like all Sinclair gear, designed down to a price - and then some! I'm afraid I seem to have lost my homebrew inout relay board and sound interface, but I think I've got the schematic somewhere... I also have a ZX81, but the only Sinclair bit left is the main board/ processor etc. Even the ROM has been changed, and it's in a large metal box with a 16K rampack, 2 inout boards and an 8 channel A2d card. Ah, the good old days... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Aug 21 14:46:05 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 14:46:05 -0500 Subject: DEC 3000/400 In-Reply-To: <44E75678.3090406@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <002f01c6c55a$70ffd220$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> My /700 has this too. I found it to be quite stupid. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Don > Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 1:21 PM > To: Classic Computers > Subject: DEC 3000/400 > > Hi, > > This box has a little fold down door in the front (below the > half height CD-ROM/tape drive). It is the size of a second > half-height drive bay. But, I'll be damned if I can figure > out why it's there! > > Behind the door there is no way that anything *could* be > installed (even if the opening into the chassis was NOT blocked). > > Perhaps this cover assembly is used for some other > product(s) which *could* make use of the space behind it? > > (obviously, this isn't a material question -- just something > trivial.... why go to the expense of putting something there > that *only* serves as a place to hide the model number, etc.?) > > Thanks, > --don > From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 21 15:01:54 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 13:01:54 -0700 Subject: DEC 3000/400 In-Reply-To: <002f01c6c55a$70ffd220$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <002f01c6c55a$70ffd220$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <44EA1132.9090902@dakotacom.net> Julian Wolfe wrote: > My /700 has this too. I found it to be quite stupid. It obviously costs money (labor) to fit it. And, if they had a universal case and wanted a "blank" there, they could easily have fitted a *stationary* panel. So, the *hinged* panel is doubly puzzling... >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Don >> Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 1:21 PM >> To: Classic Computers >> Subject: DEC 3000/400 >> >> Hi, >> >> This box has a little fold down door in the front (below the >> half height CD-ROM/tape drive). It is the size of a second >> half-height drive bay. But, I'll be damned if I can figure >> out why it's there! >> >> Behind the door there is no way that anything *could* be >> installed (even if the opening into the chassis was NOT blocked). >> >> Perhaps this cover assembly is used for some other >> product(s) which *could* make use of the space behind it? >> >> (obviously, this isn't a material question -- just something >> trivial.... why go to the expense of putting something there >> that *only* serves as a place to hide the model number, etc.?) From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Aug 21 15:38:50 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:38:50 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <44E855DB.5090709@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 20/8/06 13:30, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > > I've got a ZX80 here (issue 2A) which has a keyboard overlay attached that > looks very like that of a Sinclair ZX81. That's because it is :) > The ROM in the machine is dated week 16 of 1981, and carries the marking > C77018, and a 1981 copyright. > > Is this a machine that's been subjected to a ZX81 upgrade kit or something? I > wasn't aware that such a thing existed. Yep, the 'enhanced' ZX80 ROM was released before the ZX81 hit, as well as allowing frustrated ZX80 owners to upgrade their machines afterwards too. I *think* that's the right way round, I can remember ads for the ZX81 that also featured ROM upgrades for the '80..... > ZX80 legend underneath. However, two black press-fittings attach it to the PCB > at the corners of the front edge - are these press fittings there on all > ZX80s, or have these been added in order to secure the overlay in place? They're on all ZX80s: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Sinclair/zx80/ > The machine came with a "ZX 16K RAM" module (red lettering) which I assume is > later and more in keeping with a ZX81? Separately though I do have a module > marked as "ZX80 16K Byte RAM Pack" (white lettering). Question is, are they > interchangeable and the lettering was altered - or does the ZX80 variant map They're interchangeable, indeed I use a ZX81 RAM pack with my ZX80 and it's fine. The white lettered RAM pack is rarer than the red lettered one from what I remember. > I've also got a ROM marked as: "ROM contents copyright 1980 Sinclair Research > Ltd" - is this the original ZX80 ROM (and the ROM in the machine is an > upgrade), or is this likely something else entirely? It's the original ROM - the upgrade was fully removable for some reason, simply undo the ZX81 overlay and put the old ROM back in. I can't imagine why anyone would want to do that, but I'm pleased that you can! > Curiously there are a few stray fibres glued to the underside of the PCB - > presumably these are a left-over of cheap PCB manufacture and Sinclair's > horrible quality control! :-) Did they ever have any? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 21 15:48:26 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 13:48:26 -0700 Subject: Misc SCSI cards Message-ID: <44EA1C1A.3050809@dakotacom.net> Hi, I'm digging through boxes in an effort to "lighten the load". Are any of these worth keeping? Future Domain TMC-840 TMC-850 STB Systems (no P/N... a pair of S3 *display* controllers onboard along with a DEC DC1040F -- which I assme to be a wide SCSI controller?) IBM (no P/N... three adaptec AIC7880's, a PowerPC 403GA, IBM "Viper" and "Rattler" chips. Lots of FRU numbers but no idea which applies to the *assembly*!) Thanks! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Aug 21 15:45:36 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:45:36 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <20060820135106.238FDBA413F@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On 20/8/06 14:51, "Tim Shoppa" wrote: > I did a google search and looked on Wikipedia but some of the details > there do NOT match my memory. They say there were only 50,000 ZX80's sold I have it down as 'around 70,000' though that's by no means official. > and this seems to be a ridiculously low number for a mass-market > machine sold through many different channels. They say that the Sinclair > brand was only in the UK and this does not match my experience of having > bought one in the US (or the All machines were mail order weren't they? Yes there were adverts in a lot of magazines of the day, but all returned to Sinclair. There was a brief flirtation with the US and even a clone called the MicroAce. Aha! Google is my friend: http://www.chaotic.fsnet.co.uk/zx80/ That's not where I got my numbers from, but the author must read the same sources I did :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Aug 21 15:52:28 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:52:28 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 20/8/06 19:33, "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" wrote: > I have one that I built into a large case with large monitor , similar > to the PET , with several expansion boards. I have owned it since I > bought it new and it now sits and gathers dust in the garage. > That sort of enhanced ZX80 I'd love to see, are you sure you're thinking about the ZX80 and not something bigger (even a ZX81?) The ZX80's board is smaller than a sheet of A4 paper and wasn't that expandable...... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 21 15:57:53 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:57:53 -0400 Subject: Misc SCSI cards References: <44EA1C1A.3050809@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <013201c6c564$78924090$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 4:48 PM Subject: Misc SCSI cards > Hi, > > I'm digging through boxes in an effort to "lighten the > load". Are any of these worth keeping? > > Future Domain TMC-840 > TMC-850 > > STB Systems (no P/N... a pair of S3 *display* controllers > onboard along with a DEC DC1040F -- which I assme to > be a wide SCSI controller?) > > IBM (no P/N... three adaptec AIC7880's, a PowerPC 403GA, > IBM "Viper" and "Rattler" chips. Lots of FRU numbers > but no idea which applies to the *assembly*!) > > Thanks! Are those all PCI cards? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Aug 21 16:25:48 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:25:48 +0100 Subject: DEC 3000/400 In-Reply-To: <44E75678.3090406@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: On 19/8/06 19:20, "Don" wrote: > Hi, > > This box has a little fold down door in the front > (below the half height CD-ROM/tape drive). It is the > size of a second half-height drive bay. But, I'll > be damned if I can figure out why it's there! > I've wondered that since we got our first machine in 1992, the 3000-500 has one too. If you find out why it's there let us know :o) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon Aug 21 16:37:33 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 17:37:33 -0400 Subject: Genrad 2294 + PDP-11/44 In Atlanta Message-ID: <44EA279D.4040300@jcwren.com> I went over and checked out that Genrad 2294 tester here in Atlanta. The auction includes equipment not shown in the picture, namely the whole Genrad test platform itself, and the PDP-11/44 shown in the picture. There are 4 DEC drives in the rack, plus one CDC drive (over the CPU), the CPU box itself, and two 8" floppies. Either I don't know the "trick" to getting the CPU box to slide out on it's rails, or it's jammed. In any case, I couldn't get a picture of it's guts. I do have some closeups of the exteriors of the CPU box, the CDC drive, and one of the DEC drives. Maybe by looking at them, sometime can determine what model they are. I'm going to pass on the unit, as it's just too damn big for me to put anywhere, and while they have a fork lift to load it, I have no way to get it off. The company bought the system while one of the Rockwell Missile System Division buildings either closed or moved. From what I gather, this Genrad was used in some phase of the Hellfire missile construction, although he wasn't clear if it was the manufacturing process group or the development group. There's also a bunch of good older test equipment, but nothing I have any use for or don't already have. The box hasn't been running in at least 3 years. I didn't get a look inside the chassis, but overall it looked pretty clean, no dents or major bashes. Seems like a damn good deal, for someone with the right equipment to transport it. --jc From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 21 16:40:02 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 14:40:02 -0700 Subject: DEC 3000/400 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608211440020803.15E04F41@10.0.0.252> On 8/21/2006 at 10:25 PM Adrian Graham wrote: >On 19/8/06 19:20, "Don" wrote: >> This box has a little fold down door in the front >> (below the half height CD-ROM/tape drive). It is the >> size of a second half-height drive bay. But, I'll >> be damned if I can figure out why it's there! >> > >I've wondered that since we got our first machine in 1992, the 3000-500 has >one too. If you find out why it's there let us know :o) Cup holder option? :) --Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Aug 21 16:51:13 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:51:13 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <44EA0986.50205@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 21/8/06 20:29, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> I bought an MK14 back when it was current. That put me off Sinclair for >> life... > > Out of interest, what was so bad about them that wasn't typical of that class > of machine around that time? Admittedly without having been involved at the > time, it seems with hindsight that there were an awful lot of similar machines > around that sort of era with odd design quirks, very limited power, > poor-quality PCBs etc. The MK14 wasn't *really* a Sinclair product anyway, it was only sold under the Science of Cambridge banner and wasn't touched by Uncle Clive's fingers. Wasn't it also a clone of the Nat Semi SC/MP demo board aka SCAMP? > More common is that the regulators have been bypassed or removed entirely and > an external supply is used. It's rare-ish to find an Atom with regulators and > heatsink still intact (maybe 25% are like this). Rarer still is to find an *waves* :) Mind, the one I'm thinking of has a Bloody Great Big Switch underneath the keyboard that switches out the regulators. If I hadn't been blessed with a few hours with Nick Toop himself while he looked over that machine and sorted it out I'd have toasted it..... I must post a picture of the PSU that came with that Atom, it's nearly as wide/deep as the machine itself and twice as thick. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Aug 21 16:53:34 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:53:34 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <200608211925.UAA07504@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: On 21/8/06 20:25, "Stan Barr" wrote: > ever since. The cassete interface, however, was a different matter, it would > shed print if you just looked at it funny with a soldering iron. > Like all Sinclair gear, designed down to a price - and then some! The cassette interface was designed by Nick "Atom" Toop because Science of Cambridge hadn't come up with one; he might've had to rationalise the design to reduce costs a tad but it's all his own work. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Aug 21 16:56:24 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 17:56:24 -0400 Subject: Misc SCSI cards In-Reply-To: <44EA1C1A.3050809@dakotacom.net> References: <44EA1C1A.3050809@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44EA2C08.4040609@gmail.com> Don wrote: > IBM (no P/N... three adaptec AIC7880's, a PowerPC 403GA, > IBM "Viper" and "Rattler" chips. Lots of FRU numbers > but no idea which applies to the *assembly*!) IBM ServeRAID-II card. Pretty nice, but isn't supported under very many operating systems. I think it works under Windows, OS/2, Linux and FreeBSD, though. I know for a fact it does not work under NetBSD. Peace... Sridhar From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Aug 21 17:09:22 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 23:09:22 +0100 Subject: DEC 3000/400 In-Reply-To: <200608211440020803.15E04F41@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 21/8/06 22:40, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > > On 8/21/2006 at 10:25 PM Adrian Graham wrote: > >> On 19/8/06 19:20, "Don" wrote: >>> This box has a little fold down door in the front >>> (below the half height CD-ROM/tape drive). It is the >>> size of a second half-height drive bay. But, I'll >>> be damned if I can figure out why it's there! >>> >> >> I've wondered that since we got our first machine in 1992, the 3000-500 > has >> one too. If you find out why it's there let us know :o) > > Cup holder option? > :) Only if you support the flap at 90 degrees with the specially sized lolly sticks (DEC PN 54-78425-01) ;op Seeing Julian's post about the 3000-700 makes me wonder if I meant that instead of the 3000-500....googling tells me I'm thinking of the 3000-900, the big tower version of the 3000 series. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 21 17:13:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:13:54 -0700 Subject: Genrad 2294 + PDP-11/44 In Atlanta In-Reply-To: <44EA279D.4040300@jcwren.com> References: <44EA279D.4040300@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <200608211513540325.15FF4ECE@10.0.0.252> On 8/21/2006 at 5:37 PM J.C. Wren wrote: > The company bought the system while one of the Rockwell Missile >System Division buildings either closed or moved. I THOUGHT it looked like a piece of military application equipment. Thanks for confirming my suspicions. I think the military still uses PDP-8's or 11's to maintain C-130s (whatever it is, it uses RX02 MFM floppies). Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 21 16:50:53 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:50:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <93392f06775cfbfdeab9a6379bec822b@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 20, 6 07:33:16 pm Message-ID: > > On Aug 20, 2006, at 7:25 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> Did you notice how I signed my name on that message? > >> > >> You signed it "De ARD", correct? I assumed it was a ham radio > >> reference. > > > > No, Dr ARD. I was pointing out I had a Ph.D. (in particle physics). In > > other words, I should know that having a Ph.D. most certainly does not > > mean you know everything (or for that matter anything). > > OH oh oh oh. I thought it was "De". Well since YOU'RE the one I I've been told I made a typo in the original message ('e' and 'r' being next to each other on the keyboard...). > send electronics questions to when I can't figure something out, I > think you know that I respect your knowledge. :-) Well, you shouldn't :-). More precisely, one reason I don't like taking things to private e-mail is that I know I make mistakes, and by keeping things public there's more chance that somebody more clueful will spot said error. > > I had no idea you're into particle physics. That is extremely cool. Well, I'm not really (particle physics is not the sort of thing you can do in the garage :-)). But experimental particle physicists tend to be mad hackers (I've heard the subject described as 'playing marbles in the most expensive way posssible' :-)), so I sort-of fitted in. More usefully, I got to play with some fun toys like transputer chips, ECL logic, etc. And to use VAXen (I'll have to say, though, that I still prefer unix to VMS...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 21 16:55:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:55:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nixdorf LK3000 (OT?) In-Reply-To: <000301c6c4b4$d7b72820$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> from "Evan Koblentz" at Aug 20, 6 08:00:41 pm Message-ID: > > It takes four AA-size 500ma nicads for a total of 6V. A clever trick if you can do it. NiCds have a terminal voltage of around 1.2-1.25V per cell. 4 NiCds are often used as a 5V supply (with no other regulator). This machine might depend on this. If it really needs 6V, then you need 5 cells (my Panasonic HHC uses 5 cells followed by a discrete-component low-drop-out regualtor circuit). And don't you mean 500mAh NiCds? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 21 17:04:44 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 23:04:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060821105145.0515ced0@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Aug 21, 6 10:54:06 am Message-ID: > I'm not sure why you'd need to track how many amps you're passing thru > artichokes, but remind me never to eat supper at your house!!! ;^> Am I the only person here who is reminded of using a slice of potato to determine the polarity of a DC supply? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 21 17:15:29 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 23:15:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <44EA0986.50205@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 21, 6 07:29:10 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > I bought an MK14 back when it was current. That put me off Sinclair for > > life... > > Out of interest, what was so bad about them that wasn't typical of that class > of machine around that time? Admittedly without having been involved at the Well, the keypad was terrible (I ended up soldering 20 switches from Maplin onto the MK14 PCB, the holes and traces were there for them...). There were some very marginal bits of logic design (hint : a '157 is a multiplexer, a '175 is a latch, but the MK14 uses the former as a the display output register. It works for _some_ makes of '157...). The CPU buses are not broungt off-board, so expansion was a pain. And so on. I wish I'd saved a little more money and bought an Acorn System 1. > time, it seems with hindsight that there were an awful lot of similar machines > around that sort of era with odd design quirks, very limited power, > poor-quality PCBs etc. Having collected a number of machines from that sort of period, I can safely say that Sinclair were _by far_ the worst. And don't get me started on his pocket calculators. I think I can get more accurate results from a good slide rule. > More common is that the regulators have been bypassed or removed entirely and > an external supply is used. It's rare-ish to find an Atom with regulators and > heatsink still intact (maybe 25% are like this). Rarer still is to find an > Atom using an external supply where someone's actually done as the manual says > and indicated on the back that the machine's wired for 5V regulated input > rather than 8V unregulated - I expect there are a lot of toasted Atoms still > floating around! Releated to this was a horrible bit of Torch design. As you may know, Torch sold an upgrade for the BBC micro which added an internal PCB containing a Z80 running CP/N (no, that's not one of my typos...). The Beeb power supply couldn't really supply that as well, so what you did was remove the Beeb PSU altogether, connected a cable to the power connections on the Beeb's mainboard, and run the whole thing off a PSU in the (Torch-supplied) disk drive unit. The problem was that the cable supplied was essentially mains cabled, terminated in a Bulgin connector that was sometimes (albeit rarely) used for mains. And of course some people, finding a machine after years and not realising the PSU had been removed, promptly connected this cable to the mains. Appliing 240V AC to the 5V line does not improve matters... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 21 17:37:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:37:29 -0700 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608211537290364.1614E63F@10.0.0.252> On 8/21/2006 at 11:15 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Having collected a number of machines from that sort of period, I can >safely say that Sinclair were _by far_ the worst. And don't get me >started on his pocket calculators. I think I can get more accurate >results from a good slide rule. My first product from Sir Clive was his LED watch kit. I received a case, strap and lens, but no PCB or electronic parts. When I wrote them to point out the problem, I was sent a PCB from some other product. I wonder to this day if the kit was for a real, working watch. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 21 17:39:41 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:39:41 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608211539410515.1616EA75@10.0.0.252> On 8/21/2006 at 11:04 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Am I the only person here who is reminded of using a slice of potato to >determine the polarity of a DC supply? I vaguely remember that trick--AC was good for cooking weiners, as long as you used carbon electrodes (to keep metals from contaminating the meat). Cheers, Chuck From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 21 17:51:19 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:51:19 -0700 Subject: Misc SCSI cards In-Reply-To: <013201c6c564$78924090$0b01a8c0@game> References: <44EA1C1A.3050809@dakotacom.net> <013201c6c564$78924090$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <44EA38E7.9060904@dakotacom.net> Teo Zenios wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don" > To: "Classic Computers" > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2006 4:48 PM > Subject: Misc SCSI cards > > >> Hi, >> >> I'm digging through boxes in an effort to "lighten the >> load". Are any of these worth keeping? >> >> Future Domain TMC-840 >> TMC-850 >> >> STB Systems (no P/N... a pair of S3 *display* controllers >> onboard along with a DEC DC1040F -- which I assme to >> be a wide SCSI controller?) >> >> IBM (no P/N... three adaptec AIC7880's, a PowerPC 403GA, >> IBM "Viper" and "Rattler" chips. Lots of FRU numbers >> but no idea which applies to the *assembly*!) >> >> Thanks! > > Are those all PCI cards? No. The FD cards are ISA From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 21 17:57:06 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 18:57:06 -0400 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608211857.06442.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 21 August 2006 05:50 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > More usefully, I got to play with some fun toys like transputer chips, > ECL logic, etc. And to use VAXen (I'll have to say, though, that I still > prefer unix to VMS...) Why is that? I've no real experience with "unix" per se, though I do run linux here on multiple boxes, and I don't know a darn thing about VMS (yet). Though it did come up in some offlist correspondence recently. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 21 17:56:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 23:56:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608211539410515.1616EA75@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 21, 6 03:39:41 pm Message-ID: > > On 8/21/2006 at 11:04 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >Am I the only person here who is reminded of using a slice of potato to > >determine the polarity of a DC supply? > > I vaguely remember that trick--AC was good for cooking weiners, as long as > you used carbon electrodes (to keep metals from contaminating the meat). I actually have a book of electrical things for boys to make which suggests makine a sausage cooker that simply connects said sausages across the (110V) mains. Hmmm.... I am trying to rememebr other ways of determining the polarity of a DC supply. There was, of course, stuff called 'pole finding paper' but nobody seems to sell it anymore. And the well-known earthworm on damp blotting paper, but I can't rememebr whethter the head is +ve or -ve for it to stretch... -tony From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 21 17:57:54 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 18:57:54 -0400 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608211857.54541.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 21 August 2006 06:04 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > I'm not sure why you'd need to track how many amps you're passing thru > > artichokes, but remind me never to eat supper at your house!!! ;^> > > Am I the only person here who is reminded of using a slice of potato to > determine the polarity of a DC supply? No, though it's been so long since I've even thought of that one I can't remember which end is which any more. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 21 17:59:43 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 18:59:43 -0400 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608211859.43836.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 21 August 2006 06:15 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > Torch sold an upgrade for the BBC micro which added an internal PCB > containing a Z80 running CP/N (no, that's not one of my typos...). What is that, then? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From alexeyt at freeshell.org Mon Aug 21 18:01:58 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 23:01:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <84fc84d4914d7d9a462f8d5e2f143b23@neurotica.com> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> <44E5F74C.5000006@e-bbes.com> <44E60CE8.9030001@dakotacom.net> <44E618B7.7060604@e-bbes.com> <84fc84d4914d7d9a462f8d5e2f143b23@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Aug 2006, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Aug 18, 2006, at 3:55 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >>>>>> [I'm intensely interested in this as to how it can be done >>>>>> to make applications in consumer devices "hacker hardened"] >>>>> Run VMS ;-) >>>> Bt, is that truly "hacker proof" or "hardened by obscurity"? :> >>> >>> hacker proof. Just google for "vms defcon 9" >> >> The fact that no-one at defcon 9 knows VMS well enough to break into a VMS >> box says nothing of the security of VMS; it only says something about it's >> popularity. > > Ahhh, somebody doesn't know how widely deployed VMS systems are, but I > won't point any fingers! So what you're saying is that VMS is more widely deployed than systems that _were_ compromised at defcon 9? More than Win32, Solaris, Linux, *BSD? And where are these millions of VMS deployments? I'm the secretary of a DC metro area system administrators group (>300 members), and I've only heard of one VMS system in the DC area mentioned in our group over the 5+ years I've been a member. They were migrating off of it. I'm not saying there aren't VMS deployments, but I think you're saying they're comprably common to Windows, Mac or UNIX and everything I know tells me that is wrong. Alexey From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 21 18:08:07 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 19:08:07 -0400 Subject: Test, ignore this Message-ID: <00a001c6c576$a9df3bf0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Ignore please. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 21 18:13:10 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 16:13:10 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608211613100654.16359294@10.0.0.252> On 8/21/2006 at 11:56 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >I actually have a book of electrical things for boys to make which >suggests makine a sausage cooker that simply connects said sausages >across the (110V) mains. Hmmm.... I suspect that if one wanted to use 220v mains, one would hook two sausages in series... >I am trying to rememebr other ways of determining the polarity of a DC >supply. Salt (NaCl) on moist blue litmus paper will turn red around the v- pole. I once knew a fellow who swore he could TASTE the difference when one lead was touched to his tongue (the other being held between moist fingers). He probably speaks with a permanent lisp now... Cheers, Chuck From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon Aug 21 18:36:36 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 19:36:36 -0400 Subject: Genrad 2294 + PDP-11/44 In Atlanta In-Reply-To: <200608211513540325.15FF4ECE@10.0.0.252> References: <44EA279D.4040300@jcwren.com> <200608211513540325.15FF4ECE@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44EA4384.3030905@jcwren.com> Well, from my understanding, it's not military, per se. Genrad testers are used by many chip manufacturers and board houses. It just so happens that RMSD had this particular one. --jc Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/21/2006 at 5:37 PM J.C. Wren wrote: > > >> The company bought the system while one of the Rockwell Missile >> System Division buildings either closed or moved. >> > > I THOUGHT it looked like a piece of military application equipment. Thanks > for confirming my suspicions. I think the military still uses PDP-8's or > 11's to maintain C-130s (whatever it is, it uses RX02 MFM floppies). > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > From ray at arachelian.com Mon Aug 21 19:07:54 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 20:07:54 -0400 Subject: Classic Mac emulation (was Re: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.)) In-Reply-To: <44D4E2A7.1090501@arachelian.com> References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <44D47B88.8040909@neurotica.com> <44D4E2A7.1090501@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <44EA4ADA.10106@arachelian.com> Ray Arachelian wrote: > see: http://basilisk.cebix.net/#download and > http://www.users.bigpond.com/pear_computers/ and > http://www.gibix.net/dokuwiki/en:projects:basilisk2#downloads ). > > http://minivmac.sourceforge.net/ <- emulator here. > http://www.rolli.ch/MacPlus <- Ancient Mac OS software > I've recently run across this on OS News: http://www.gibix.net/dokuwiki/en:projects:sheepshaver (article about the above: http://www.uneasysilence.com/archive/2006/08/7352/ ) It's an Open Source PowerPC Mac emulator that will run classic Mac OS software, even on Intel machines. There are windows, Mac OS X (fat binary) and linux builds available. Enjoy. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 21 21:20:07 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 19:20:07 -0700 Subject: One for classiccmp.org? (was: Re: Archived a few PERQ games...) In-Reply-To: <44EA0E13.3070006@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44EA0E13.3070006@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: At 7:48 PM +0000 8/21/06, Jules Richardson wrote: >Tony Duell wrote: >>>(on the PC this time) to read in the disk image and dump the >>>directory structure and files to disk without too many hairy >>>issues. (The utility and all the files on the disk are now on my >>>website at http://yahozna.dhs.org/computers/software/PERQ). >> >>I really must find time to look at that... > >Hmm, random thought, but does it make sense to have a list on >classiccmp.org of what preservation work (in terms of utilities, >procedures etc.) has been done for various machines? > >It doesn't even necessarily need to be a maintained list of links - >just recording the fact e.g. that someone out there has successfully >hacked something to recover data off system xyz would be useful. I >tend to find that sort of level of info isn't so readily available >via google, and often am too busy to be able to wade through a few >dozen enthusiast sites in order to see what people have come up with >already... I can't believe I'm about to say this, but would this be something for a Wiki? I for one am very interested in this sort of thing. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 21 21:52:19 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 19:52:19 -0700 Subject: One for classiccmp.org? (was: Re: Archived a few PERQ games...) References: <44EA0E13.3070006@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: From: "Jules Richardson" > Hmm, random thought, but does it make sense to have a list on classiccmp.org > of what preservation work (in terms of utilities, procedures etc.) has been > done for various machines? That sounds like a cool idea to me, too. Vince From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 22 00:35:10 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:35:10 -0700 Subject: Classic Mac emulation (was Re: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.)) In-Reply-To: <44EA4ADA.10106@arachelian.com> References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <44D47B88.8040909@neurotica.com> <44D4E2A7.1090501@arachelian.com> <44EA4ADA.10106@arachelian.com> Message-ID: At 8:07 PM -0400 8/21/06, Ray Arachelian wrote: >I've recently run across this on OS News: > >http://www.gibix.net/dokuwiki/en:projects:sheepshaver >(article about the above: >http://www.uneasysilence.com/archive/2006/08/7352/ ) > >It's an Open Source PowerPC Mac emulator that will run classic Mac OS >software, even on Intel machines. There are windows, Mac OS X (fat >binary) and linux builds available. > >Enjoy. I saw that as well today, but am not sure where I have all of my "classic" CD's. I've gotten as far as getting it to complain I was trying to boot to old of a version of the OS. Does anyone have any experience with it? How is the frame rate? I really like the look of Sheepshaver, it looks to be just what I'm after. Didn't it originally run on the Amiga? ISTR, having it on my A3000. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 22 00:37:32 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:37:32 -0700 Subject: MULTICS manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44EA981C.50502@dakotacom.net> Al Kossow wrote: >> I've got a couple of cubic feet of MULTICS manuals, here. >> Should I put them in the "to be scanned" pile or the "to >> be shredded" pile? > > Check what's already been done on bitsavers. A friend came by this weekend to pick up the manuals. Here's a partial list of some of the documents -- just to see if any may be of interest. If so, I can try to borrow back a selection of them when next I see him (over the holidays, probably). Note most are Bull/Honeywell-Bull origin. And, if you've any experience with MULTICS docs, most manuals are LLOONNGG! (e.g., this list alone is 18" thick): Standards System Designer's Notebook Emacs Extension Writers' Guide " " " Apx A Series 60 Multics Processor Manual Series 60 Multics Communication System Subroutines and I/O Modules Administration, Maintenance and Operations Commands (part 1) Communications Administration Operator's Guide to Multics Programmer's Reference Manual System Administration Procedures Commands and Active Functions System Maintenance Procedures From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 22 02:30:55 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 07:30:55 +0000 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44EAB2AF.3070707@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >>> I bought an MK14 back when it was current. That put me off Sinclair for >>> life... >> Out of interest, what was so bad about them that wasn't typical of that class >> of machine around that time? Admittedly without having been involved at the > > Well, the keypad was terrible (I ended up soldering 20 switches from > Maplin onto the MK14 PCB, the holes and traces were there for them...). > There were some very marginal bits of logic design (hint : a '157 is a > multiplexer, a '175 is a latch, but the MK14 uses the former as a the > display output register. It works for _some_ makes of '157...). The CPU > buses are not broungt off-board, so expansion was a pain. Hmm, that is really surprising about the (lack of) expansion ability - I would have thought it's one of the primary reasons in choosing a machine of that class. I can't imagine doing something like in the ZX series (solder-pad edge connector) would exactly have put the manufacturing cost up by much! > And so on. I > wish I'd saved a little more money and bought an Acorn System 1. True - at least there was the ability there to re-use the CPU card and add a eurocard lack later along with all the later System cards. Mind you, from memory of Acorn ads they didn't really play up any future expansion ability - I don't think Acorn saw it as a real selling point back then. > Releated to this was a horrible bit of Torch design. As you may know, > Torch sold an upgrade for the BBC micro which added an internal PCB > containing a Z80 running CP/N (no, that's not one of my typos...). The > Beeb power supply couldn't really supply that as well, so what you did > was remove the Beeb PSU altogether, connected a cable to the power > connections on the Beeb's mainboard, and run the whole thing off a PSU > in the (Torch-supplied) disk drive unit. You know, my prototype Torch Z80 disk unit has power out at the back; I can't remember whether the production ones were like that or not. It had never occurred to me that someone would want to power the machine from it! In a way I'm surprised that the beeb PSU couldn't cope though - the current draw can't be a lot worse than other various internal add-ons for the beeb. I've certainly seen a lot of beebs running the Torch copro without any PSU mods. cheers J. -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 22 02:43:36 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 07:43:36 +0000 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <200608211859.43836.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608211859.43836.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44EAB5A8.4050503@yahoo.co.uk> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 21 August 2006 06:15 pm, Tony Duell wrote: >> Torch sold an upgrade for the BBC micro which added an internal PCB >> containing a Z80 running CP/N (no, that's not one of my typos...). > > What is that, then? It was Torch's own CP/M variant - I don't think it was really any less compatible than lots of other CP/M variants, but the main difference was that it added networking support for TorchNET in systems that were based around the BBC micro (and hence had Econet ability - TorchNET was just a different layer over the standard Econet lower levels) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 22 02:46:04 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 07:46:04 +0000 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44EAB63C.90801@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > I actually have a book of electrical things for boys to make which > suggests makine a sausage cooker that simply connects said sausages > across the (110V) mains. Hmmm.... You really need a scanner - I'd love to see that :-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 22 01:52:09 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 02:52:09 -0400 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> <44E5F74C.5000006@e-bbes.com> <44E60CE8.9030001@dakotacom.net> <44E618B7.7060604@e-bbes.com> <84fc84d4914d7d9a462f8d5e2f143b23@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <76848b33a5acc839da26cc11a4b64a9b@neurotica.com> On Aug 21, 2006, at 7:01 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >>>>>>> [I'm intensely interested in this as to how it can be done >>>>>>> to make applications in consumer devices "hacker hardened"] >>>>>> Run VMS ;-) >>>>> Bt, is that truly "hacker proof" or "hardened by obscurity"? :> >>>> hacker proof. Just google for "vms defcon 9" >>> The fact that no-one at defcon 9 knows VMS well enough to break into >>> a VMS box says nothing of the security of VMS; it only says >>> something about it's popularity. >> >> Ahhh, somebody doesn't know how widely deployed VMS systems are, but >> I won't point any fingers! > > So what you're saying is that VMS is more widely deployed than systems > that _were_ compromised at defcon 9? More than Win32, Solaris, Linux, > *BSD? And where are these millions of VMS deployments? I'm the > secretary of a DC metro area system administrators group (>300 > members), and I've only heard of one VMS system in the DC area > mentioned in our group over the 5+ years I've been a member. They were > migrating off of it. > > I'm not saying there aren't VMS deployments, but I think you're saying > they're comprably common to Windows, Mac or UNIX and everything I know > tells me that is wrong. Sigh. I didn't say anything other than what I typed above. The world is full of misguided and/or clueless people who think VMS is "old", "dead", "legacy" or some other such nonsense, while in fact it is extremely widely used...just not in places that we hear about every day. VMS is not cracker-kiddie-resistant because it's obscure...it's cracker-kiddie-resistant because it's well-written. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Aug 22 02:17:59 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 08:17:59 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <200608211537290364.1614E63F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 21/8/06 23:37, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > My first product from Sir Clive was his LED watch kit. I received a case, > strap and lens, but no PCB or electronic parts. When I wrote them to point > out the problem, I was sent a PCB from some other product. Ah yes, the famous exploding Black Watch, still going for silly money on epay even if it doesn't work! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Aug 22 02:31:31 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 08:31:31 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <44EAB2AF.3070707@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 22/8/06 08:30, "Jules Richardson" wrote: >> Well, the keypad was terrible (I ended up soldering 20 switches from >> Maplin onto the MK14 PCB, the holes and traces were there for them...). >> There were some very marginal bits of logic design (hint : a '157 is a >> multiplexer, a '175 is a latch, but the MK14 uses the former as a the >> display output register. It works for _some_ makes of '157...). The CPU >> buses are not broungt off-board, so expansion was a pain. > > Hmm, that is really surprising about the (lack of) expansion ability - I would > have thought it's one of the primary reasons in choosing a machine of that > class. I can't imagine doing something like in the ZX series (solder-pad edge > connector) would exactly have put the manufacturing cost up by much! According to this advert from 1977ish some of the CPU signals go directly to the edge connector at the back, also note the expansion at the lower right for an external keyboard.. http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/scripts/picshow.php?image=mk14.jpg&folder=/ Museum/Adverts&back=/Museum/Adverts/index.php (erk, url wrappage!) Also, here's a later one that features such niceties as a 'vdu module' which to me looks like a eurocard..... Also, here's Nick Toop's own MK14 in large JPG format; note later membrane keyboard, power module and wires at the top going to the cassette interface. The metal box it's in was Nick's own design but Clive never took it on, probably because of cost :) http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/nickmk14.jpg -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Aug 22 05:27:04 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 05:27:04 -0500 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44EAB63C.90801@yahoo.co.uk> References: Message-ID: <200608220930.k7M9UPNS010079@hosting.monisys.ca> > > I actually have a book of electrical things for boys to make which > > suggests makine a sausage cooker that simply connects said sausages > > across the (110V) mains. Hmmm.... > > You really need a scanner - I'd love to see that :-) When I was in university (70s), I had a hot-dog cooker which cooked weiners by connecting them across the 110v AC mains. This was a commercially produced device. The device looked like a 1/2 cylinder with a same-shape drawer that you could remove from one end. When removed the drawer had points along the sides where the round part of the cylinder meets the flat part of the cross section, angled such that you could put up to 6 weiners with an end at matching points, and each would curve up in an arc inside the half cylinder (you had to push the weiner into the points so that they penetrated into the end). When you inserted the drawer full of meat into the outer shell contacts on one end would connect each row of poins with one side of the AC mains (the idea was that the points were not powered until the drawer was fully inserted, thus preventing body contact with electrically hot points. It actually worked, but much better for some brands of weiners. (Some were not very conductive at all) - you would get very odd looks from store owners when you asked which weiners were most conductive. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 22 07:11:26 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 07:11:26 -0500 Subject: One for classiccmp.org? (was: Re: Archived a few PERQ games...) Message-ID: > Hmm, random thought, but does it make sense to have a list on classiccmp.org > of what preservation work (in terms of utilities, procedures etc.) has been > done for various machines? This is part of my charter as Software Curator at CHM (documentation and tools) It will be going up as part of the SCC (hopefully, with a new name soon) web site. http://community.computerhistory.org/scc along with a blog of the projects that I'm working on at CHM. -- Connectivity for me is spotty, since I can't send or receive bitsavers mail at work right now. From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Tue Aug 22 07:32:32 2006 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 13:32:32 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <44EAB2AF.3070707@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44EAB2AF.3070707@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20060822132900.06e3c690@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> At 08:30 22/08/2006, Jules Richardson wrote: >You know, my prototype Torch Z80 disk unit has power out at the >back; I can't remember whether the production ones were like that or >not. It had never occurred to me that someone would want to power >the machine from it! There's one on eBay at the moment - Item 280020173050 - with a picture clearly showing the rear with a DC out connector. It appears to only be +/- 5V from the labeling, which I would have thought insufficient to run a Beeb. So what WAS it used for?? Rob. From allain at panix.com Tue Aug 22 07:56:28 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 08:56:28 -0400 Subject: One for classiccmp.org? (was: Re: Archived a few PERQ games...) References: <44EA0E13.3070006@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <004b01c6c5ea$6d1eec00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > I can't believe I'm about to say this, but would this be something > for a Wiki? I for one am very interested in this sort of thing. I've seen FAQs, DataBases and KnowledgeBases barely get off the ground or explode on the launchpad whereas the WikiPedia has become a useful and highly evolved resource. Gets my vote. John A. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 22 11:27:26 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 12:27:26 -0400 Subject: 293xx In-Reply-To: <44E9D8ED.8000001@gmail.com> References: <44E8FDC5.30108@gmail.com> <6dad9e9a67fdcedd9269bb0f72bd7623@neurotica.com> <44E9D8ED.8000001@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Aug 21, 2006, at 12:01 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Is there anyone around who has datasheets for the AMD Am29300-series >>> chips, and wouldn't mind scanning them for me? I'm most interested >>> in the sheets for the Am29331 sequencer and the Am29332 ALU. >> Mmmm, droooool. The Am29325 is the ALU we used in the >> supercomputer at Princeton that I described here a few days ago. >> What wonderful chips they are...I wish I could find a handful of >> them, or I hope to build up my Verilog skills to the point where I >> could roll my own in an FPGA. > > I just got my hands on four 29332's. 8-) Grrrrrrr. ;) Whatcha gonna make? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 22 12:44:01 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:44:01 +0000 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608220930.k7M9UPNS010079@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200608220930.k7M9UPNS010079@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <44EB4261.4020106@yahoo.co.uk> Dave Dunfield wrote: >>> I actually have a book of electrical things for boys to make which >>> suggests makine a sausage cooker that simply connects said sausages >>> across the (110V) mains. Hmmm.... >> You really need a scanner - I'd love to see that :-) > > When I was in university (70s), I had a hot-dog cooker which cooked > weiners by connecting them across the 110v AC mains. This was a > commercially produced device. > [snip] that's fantastic! :-) (someone should start a website for general oddball engineering/electrical gadgets...) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 22 12:57:44 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:57:44 +0000 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060822132900.06e3c690@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> References: <44EAB2AF.3070707@yahoo.co.uk> <7.0.1.0.0.20060822132900.06e3c690@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <44EB4598.4090001@yahoo.co.uk> Rob O'Donnell wrote: > At 08:30 22/08/2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > > >> You know, my prototype Torch Z80 disk unit has power out at the back; >> I can't remember whether the production ones were like that or not. It >> had never occurred to me that someone would want to power the machine >> from it! > > There's one on eBay at the moment - Item 280020173050 Heh, I know the seller - he's tried to interest me in that one a few times :-) My prototype one is the same design, but uses the (far more attractive) two-tone grey paint that Torch used for most of their systems, rather than the "poop brown". For some reason they changed it for the production units... > - with a picture > clearly showing the rear with a DC out connector. It appears to only be > +/- 5V from the labeling, which I would have thought insufficient to run > a Beeb. Ahh, no - beebs use RS423 for serial, so only need +/- 5V internally on the system board. They do have +12V on the aux power connector on the beeb's PSU itself, but that's not used internally by the system. I'm still surprised that there were any beebs incapable of running the Torch board from their own PSU though. I believe there was a change to PSU spec at some point early in the beeb's life though, so maybe very early systems couldn't cope. cheers J. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 22 12:14:06 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 13:14:06 -0400 Subject: OT: Hotdog cooker links In-Reply-To: <44EB4261.4020106@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200608221727.k7MHRX4m080317@keith.ezwind.net> On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:44:01 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: >Dave Dunfield wrote: >>>> I actually have a book of electrical things for boys to make which >>>> suggests makine a sausage cooker that simply connects said sausages >>>> across the (110V) mains. Hmmm.... >>> You really need a scanner - I'd love to see that :-) >> >> When I was in university (70s), I had a hot-dog cooker which cooked >> weiners by connecting them across the 110v AC mains. This was a >> commercially produced device. > > [snip] Not a comercial product, yet a great educational example: http://tinyurl.com/lf7cs This 1950's version is more ontopic :) http://tinyurl.com/mn8eg There have been numerious ways for a cool cat to heat a dog .... ok ... Back under my rock, I go :) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 22 12:26:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:26:26 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44EB4261.4020106@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200608220930.k7M9UPNS010079@hosting.monisys.ca> <44EB4261.4020106@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200608221026260978.1A1E7AED@10.0.0.252> On 8/22/2006 at 5:44 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >Dave Dunfield wrote: >> When I was in university (70s), I had a hot-dog cooker which cooked >> weiners by connecting them across the 110v AC mains. This was a >> commercially produced device. > > [snip] > >that's fantastic! :-) (someone should start a website for general oddball >engineering/electrical gadgets...) I can recall seeing one of these in the 1950's. Made of red-and-white styrene with carbon electrodes for 4 wieners. The top operated an interlock switch. It didn't really do a good job--the middles tended to be undercooked and the ends tended to burn a bit around the electrode ends. Another "simplicity itself" appliance still in production is the sickroom vaporizer. Nothng more than two electrodes contained in a plastic or bakelite housing immersed in a tank of water and connected directly to the AC line. Enough heat builds up by the slight conductivity of tap water to boil it. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 22 12:31:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 10:31:45 -0700 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608221031450576.1A235773@10.0.0.252> On 8/22/2006 at 8:17 AM Adrian Graham wrote: >Ah yes, the famous exploding Black Watch, still going for silly money on >epay even if it doesn't work! After I couldn't get any cooperation in getting the needed parts for mine, I tossed it out. Your comment probably explains why the company stonewalled on my requests for a complete kit. I bought a Commodore watch instead--for $15. Sadly, I don't have it any longer, but I still do have my National Semiconductor LCD watch. In both instances, perspiration did a number on the circuitry. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Aug 22 12:40:41 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 18:40:41 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <200608221031450576.1A235773@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 22/8/06 18:31, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 8/22/2006 at 8:17 AM Adrian Graham wrote: > >> Ah yes, the famous exploding Black Watch, still going for silly money on >> epay even if it doesn't work! > > After I couldn't get any cooperation in getting the needed parts for mine, > I tossed it out. Your comment probably explains why the company > stonewalled on my requests for a complete kit. I bought a Commodore watch > instead--for $15. Sadly, I don't have it any longer, but I still do have > my National Semiconductor LCD watch. In both instances, perspiration did a > number on the circuitry. Heh, I'm wearing my Commodore watch now, datestamped 07/77 and still getting admiring glances from all and sundry. When I flew from the UK to Guernsey (in the Channel Islands) the other weekend I wasn't allowed to take it into the cabin because of the terrorist threats - "it looks like it might set something off!" was one comment. Nice :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 22 12:55:22 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 13:55:22 -0400 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608221026260978.1A1E7AED@10.0.0.252> References: <44EB4261.4020106@yahoo.co.uk> <200608221026260978.1A1E7AED@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608221355.22944.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 22 August 2006 01:26 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Another "simplicity itself" appliance still in production is the sickroom > vaporizer. Nothng more than two electrodes contained in a plastic or > bakelite housing immersed in a tank of water and connected directly to the > AC line. Enough heat builds up by the slight conductivity of tap water to > boil it. Yeah, we have one of those someplace. Dunno where the heck we're gonna get another set of electrodes for it, though, the ones in there are all corroded to heck... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Aug 22 12:49:09 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 18:49:09 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 22 Aug 2006 07:30:55 -0000." <44EAB2AF.3070707@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200608221749.SAA10844@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jules Richardson said: RE: Mk 14 > Hmm, that is really surprising about the (lack of) expansion ability - > I would > have thought it's one of the primary reasons in choosing a machine of that > class. I can't imagine doing something like in the ZX series (solder-pad edge > connector) would exactly have put the manufacturing cost up by much! Indeed, the lack of expandability was a real downer. I wanted to add a couple of k ram but it would have required major surgery. By that time, however, I had another SC/MP board by a local firm (Kemitron, I think) so the MK14 survives in un-butchered form. The optional in/out chip lines (an INS8154) were brought out to an (0.15-inch pitch) edge connector together with the processor flag and sense lines, and the serial in/out. The keybourd had its own connector. To find that info I had to dig out the manual and I couldn't resist connecting the Mk14 to the shack power supply, it still works :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Aug 22 02:56:44 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 08:56:44 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:53:34 BST." Message-ID: <200608220756.IAA09237@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Adrian Graham said: > On 21/8/06 20:25, "Stan Barr" wrote: > > > ever since. The cassete interface, however, was a different matter, it would > > shed print if you just looked at it funny with a soldering iron. > > Like all Sinclair gear, designed down to a price - and then some! > > The cassette interface was designed by Nick "Atom" Toop because Science of > Cambridge hadn't come up with one; he might've had to rationalise the design > to reduce costs a tad but it's all his own work. I didn't know that. The design's fine, it's just the quality of the board, but small production runs and low costs presumably didn't allow for a high quality board - unless I just got a bad one! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 22 13:12:05 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:12:05 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608221355.22944.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44EB4261.4020106@yahoo.co.uk> <200608221026260978.1A1E7AED@10.0.0.252> <200608221355.22944.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608221112050194.1A484579@10.0.0.252> On 8/22/2006 at 1:55 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Yeah, we have one of those someplace. Dunno where the heck we're gonna >get another set of electrodes for it, though, the ones in there are all >corroded to heck... :-) I replaced the ones in ours with a couple of pieces of stainless steel. They still look like new--after the hardwater scale is removed. I find the modern "cold mist" vaporizers noisy and high maintenance (requires filter replacement). But for a slight AC hum, the old one is nearly silent. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 22 13:33:13 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 12:33:13 -0600 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44EAB63C.90801@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44EAB63C.90801@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44EB4DE9.3080003@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >> I actually have a book of electrical things for boys to make which >> suggests makine a sausage cooker that simply connects said sausages >> across the (110V) mains. Hmmm.... > > > You really need a scanner - I'd love to see that :-) Why not just buy the book! I think they have have re-print at www.lindsaybks.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 22 13:35:56 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 12:35:56 -0600 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608220930.k7M9UPNS010079@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200608220930.k7M9UPNS010079@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <44EB4E8C.2030808@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave Dunfield wrote: > It actually worked, but much better for some brands of weiners. (Some > were not very conductive at all) - you would get very odd looks from > store owners when you asked which weiners were most conductive. So what brands work best? > Regards, > Dave > From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Aug 22 14:39:10 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:39:10 -0500 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44EB4E8C.2030808@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200608220930.k7M9UPNS010079@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200608221842.k7MIgU6t032465@hosting.monisys.ca> > > It actually worked, but much better for some brands of weiners. (Some > > were not very conductive at all) - you would get very odd looks from > > store owners when you asked which weiners were most conductive. > > So what brands work best? IIRC "Maple Leaf" all-beefs worked best ... I also recall most of the no-name and cheaper brands didn't work well at all ... but it's been a while, and the refresh circuitry on these memories does not cycle very often... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue Aug 22 13:50:45 2006 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 19:50:45 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44EB5205.4060108@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > There were some very marginal bits of logic design (hint : a '157 is a > multiplexer, a '175 is a latch, but the MK14 uses the former as a the > display output register. It works for _some_ makes of '157...). I read somewhere that the MK14 was redesigned by National Semiconductor so that it used chips made by them, exclusively. This was done for free, or at least in return for buying lots of Nat Semi chips to actually build the machines. Maybe the Nat Semi '157s work, and others don't? -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From alexeyt at freeshell.org Tue Aug 22 13:49:58 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 18:49:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <76848b33a5acc839da26cc11a4b64a9b@neurotica.com> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> <44E5F74C.5000006@e-bbes.com> <44E60CE8.9030001@dakotacom.net> <44E618B7.7060604@e-bbes.com> <84fc84d4914d7d9a462f8d5e2f143b23@neurotica.com> <76848b33a5acc839da26cc11a4b64a9b@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Aug 2006, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> Ahhh, somebody doesn't know how widely deployed VMS systems are, but I >>> won't point any fingers! >> >> So what you're saying is that VMS is more widely deployed than systems that >> _were_ compromised at defcon 9? More than Win32, Solaris, Linux, *BSD? And >> where are these millions of VMS deployments? I'm the secretary of a DC >> metro area system administrators group (>300 members), and I've only heard >> of one VMS system in the DC area mentioned in our group over the 5+ years >> I've been a member. They were migrating off of it. >> >> I'm not saying there aren't VMS deployments, but I think you're saying >> they're comprably common to Windows, Mac or UNIX and everything I know >> tells me that is wrong. > > Sigh. I didn't say anything other than what I typed above. The world is > full of misguided and/or clueless people who think VMS is "old", "dead", > "legacy" or some other such nonsense, while in fact it is extremely widely > used...just not in places that we hear about every day. OK, now I think you're being unreasonable. Who, pray tell, has these vast secret VMS installations that we don't hear about? Show me the VAXen. > VMS is not cracker-kiddie-resistant because it's obscure...it's > cracker-kiddie-resistant because it's well-written. I don't think it's fair for you to make this claim. There are millions of known Windows, Mac and UNIX internet-facing computers that are under attack every day. There are significantly fewer VAXen (100 times fewer? 1000? 10000 wouldn't surprise me), which are attacked significantly less frequently. You could be right, VMS could be very securely written; but until it has been tested by throwing the same volume of script kiddies at it as other OSen have had thrown at them you can't make any security claims based on relative number of breakins. Alexey From dm.hunt at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 22 10:19:34 2006 From: dm.hunt at ntlworld.com (David Hunt) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:19:34 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060822132900.06e3c690@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> Message-ID: <003601c6c5fe$614e8a20$3201a8c0@hal> > >You know, my prototype Torch Z80 disk unit has power out at > the back; I > >can't remember whether the production ones were like that or not. It > >had never occurred to me that someone would want to power > the machine > >from it! > > There's one on eBay at the moment - Item 280020173050 - with > a picture clearly showing the rear with a DC out connector. > It appears to only be +/- 5V from the labeling, which I would > have thought insufficient to run a Beeb. So what WAS it used for?? +5v and -5v cover the logic, serial port and sound. The +12v was only used to power drives, those drives are inside the Torch so there is no need for it. Dave ;) From marvin at rain.org Tue Aug 22 13:55:57 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:55:57 -0700 Subject: September Livermore Swapmeet Message-ID: <44EB533D.744F3111@rain.org> I'm planning on going up to the Livermore swapmeet again on Sunday, September 3 to browse, drop stuff off, and meet some classic computer people. If anyone buys some stuff from VCM (http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/) and wants to save on shipping by meeting at the swapmeet, just let me know. I think the swapmeet opens to buyers at 7:00AM and more information is available on the web at http://www.livermoreark.org/swap/swap.html. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 22 14:10:17 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:10:17 -0400 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> <44E5F74C.5000006@e-bbes.com> <44E60CE8.9030001@dakotacom.net> <44E618B7.7060604@e-bbes.com> <84fc84d4914d7d9a462f8d5e2f143b23@neurotica.com> <76848b33a5acc839da26cc11a4b64a9b@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > OK, now I think you're being unreasonable. Who, pray tell, has these vast > secret VMS installations that we don't hear about? Show me the VAXen. VAX machines are often found in the financial world, as well as in military, manufacturing and process control. See below. > You could be right, VMS could be very securely written; but until it has > been tested by throwing the same volume of script kiddies at it as other > OSen have had thrown at them you can't make any security claims based on > relative number of breakins. No doubt that there are far fewer VAXes (I hate using VAXen), but they are much better targets. I bet 99 percent of the Unix machines on the Internet basically are really boring machines, a good number of which have their fair share of porn. A much larger percentage of VAX machines hold much more interesting bits and things to screw up - and in the case of banking, VALUABLE bits. I hear pretty much the same thing from all of the hackers I know - VMS (and OS/400*) is just about buttlet proof. *And before you ask, AS/400s are very common in the business world. There are a huge number of the machines out there. -- Will From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Aug 22 14:14:24 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 20:14:24 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <200608220756.IAA09237@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: On 22/8/06 08:56, "Stan Barr" wrote: >> >> The cassette interface was designed by Nick "Atom" Toop because Science of >> Cambridge hadn't come up with one; he might've had to rationalise the design >> to reduce costs a tad but it's all his own work. > > I didn't know that. The design's fine, it's just the quality of the board, > but small production runs and low costs presumably didn't allow for a high > quality board - unless I just got a bad one! Nah, all the interfaces I've seen have had no writing on them :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Aug 22 14:10:04 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 14:10:04 -0500 Subject: OT: Hotdog cooker links In-Reply-To: <200608221727.k7MHRX4m080317@keith.ezwind.net> References: <44EB4261.4020106@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060822140720.0caa8668@localhost> I built a hot dog cooker when I was 9, consisting of a small piece of pine (1x4 nominal), two nails, and a line-cord connected to 110VAC mains. It was based on an idea I saw in a book somewhere. My dad was absolutely sure it wouldn't work. It did. We disassembled it right after using it because of the hazards of exposed line voltage and two pointy things sticking up. Those were the days. At 01:14 PM 8/22/2006 -0400, you wrote: >On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:44:01 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > >Dave Dunfield wrote: > >>>> I actually have a book of electrical things for boys to make which > >>>> suggests makine a sausage cooker that simply connects said sausages > >>>> across the (110V) mains. Hmmm.... > >>> You really need a scanner - I'd love to see that :-) > >> > >> When I was in university (70s), I had a hot-dog cooker which cooked > >> weiners by connecting them across the 110v AC mains. This was a > >> commercially produced device. > > > [snip] > > >Not a comercial product, yet a great educational >example: http://tinyurl.com/lf7cs >This 1950's version is more ontopic :) http://tinyurl.com/mn8eg >There have been numerious ways for a cool cat to heat a dog .... > >ok ... Back under my rock, I go :) [Disgrace] She is absolutely inadmissible into society. Many a woman has a past, but I am told that she has at least a dozen, and that they all fit. --Oscar Wilde --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 22 14:45:07 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:45:07 -0400 Subject: OT: Hotdog cooker links References: <44EB4261.4020106@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20060822140720.0caa8668@localhost> Message-ID: <006101c6c623$78f1def0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Peters" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 3:10 PM Subject: Re: OT: Hotdog cooker links > I built a hot dog cooker when I was 9, consisting of a small piece of pine > (1x4 nominal), two nails, and a line-cord connected to 110VAC mains. It was > based on an idea I saw in a book somewhere. My dad was absolutely sure it > wouldn't work. It did. We disassembled it right after using it because of > the hazards of exposed line voltage and two pointy things sticking up. > > Those were the days. I recall a TV show a long time ago (some guy showing kids how things worked) was showing how to cook a hotdog like that (I think they used those small forks that you held corn on the cob with) and plugged them into 110VAC for a few seconds. The salty liquid in the hotdog conducted enough electricity to cook the hotdog in a few seconds. I bet that show never gets replayed these days because of lawyers. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Aug 22 15:15:34 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 21:15:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: Sinclair ZX80 questions" (Aug 22, 17:57) References: <44EAB2AF.3070707@yahoo.co.uk> <7.0.1.0.0.20060822132900.06e3c690@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> <44EB4598.4090001@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <10608222115.ZM18891@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Aug 22 2006, 17:57, Jules Richardson wrote: > Rob O'Donnell wrote: > > At 08:30 22/08/2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > >> You know, my prototype Torch Z80 disk unit has power out at the back; > >> I can't remember whether the production ones were like that or not. It > >> had never occurred to me that someone would want to power the machine > >> from it! They were all like that, including all the production ones, and the fitting instructions explained how to *remove* the Beeb's own PSU completely, and fit the cable to run it off the Torch disk pack. It was not a good move on Torch's part; I've seen several Beebs completely destroyed as a result of bad PSUs or miswiring. A common problem was that the Z80 card is supposed to fit inside the Beeb, on PCB mounts stuck to the case top with sticky pads. Of course, sometimes those unstick and the Z80 card -- component side down -- falls onto the Beeb's motherboard and shorts things out. If you're lucky, it crashes the Beeb. If you're unlucky, it shorts out the power. This makes the Torch switch-mode detect the over-current and shut down, and in typical SMPSU fashion, immediately try to restart. Unfortunately the regulation in that situation isn't too good and you often get a voltage overshoot. The Beeb's LSTTL does not take kindly to having 9V (approx) pumped into it. I've repaired a couple that had that happen; one of them ended up with every single IC except the NMOS socketed and replaced. It made a nice demo unit for our workshop and an excellent practice setting for our YTS trainee :-) Another one is that Torch used standard 3-core mains cable for the PSU connections, and more than one person, faced with a dismantled system, has connected this "mains cable" to the mains. > I'm still surprised that there were any beebs incapable of running the Torch > board from their own PSU though. I believe there was a change to PSU spec at > some point early in the beeb's life though, so maybe very early systems > couldn't cope. The maximum current drawn by the Torch Z80 is nominally close to the spare capacity of the Beeb's SMPSU, so they were playing safe in case people had other expansions. Besides, there were still Beebs with linear supplies around when they built the prototypes in early 1982. Yes, there were several PSUs. The original was a black linear power supply, and there were three variants of that (two matt black, one glossy). One "power adaptor/converter" originally used in Model As was so notorious for running hot in upgraded machines or Model Bs that it was nicknamed the "adaptor/exploder", after the failure mode it exhibited. I remember being told in 1982 that "hardly any of these remain in the field". I wonder why. Anyone with a linear supply was offered a free switch-mode upgrade if they fitted a DFS upgrade, or a few other things. The original SMPSU was quite a nice unit made by Astec. This is in a golden coloured metal case, or frame you might say, as it's open on three sides -- which doesn't matter because it's enclosed in the plastic case. Later Acorn had these made under license by BSR, but once again the quality suffered. Most of the BSR units have poorer regulation and less spare capacity than the Astec ones. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Aug 22 15:28:14 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:28:14 -0500 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) (Way OT) Message-ID: Dave wrote: > When I was in university (70s), I had a hot-dog cooker which cooked > weiners by connecting them across the 110v AC mains. This was a > commercially produced device. > [snip] Did it light up a pickle when the hot-dog was done? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 22 15:38:01 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 13:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) (Way OT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060822203801.6521.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> For what purpose now? Work with me here. As a night light maybe? So you can see yer way to the latrine? --- Scott Quinn wrote: > Dave wrote: > > When I was in university (70s), I had a hot-dog > cooker which cooked > > weiners by connecting them across the 110v AC > mains. This was a > > commercially produced device. > > [snip] > > Did it light up a pickle when the hot-dog was done? > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Aug 22 16:32:50 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:32:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Hotdog cooker links In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060822140720.0caa8668@localhost> Message-ID: <20060822213250.EB0A758194@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Tom Peters > > I built a hot dog cooker when I was 9, consisting of a small piece of pine > (1x4 nominal), two nails, and a line-cord connected to 110VAC mains. It was > based on an idea I saw in a book somewhere. My dad was absolutely sure it > wouldn't work. It did. We disassembled it right after using it because of > the hazards of exposed line voltage and two pointy things sticking up. > > Those were the days. > I wonder what would happen if you did the same thing for a hamburger, but instead of two nail use a flat round piece of metal... Would you get a capacitive effect? Cheers, Bryan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 22 16:52:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:52:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <200608211857.06442.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Aug 21, 6 06:57:06 pm Message-ID: > > On Monday 21 August 2006 05:50 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > More usefully, I got to play with some fun toys like transputer chips, > > ECL logic, etc. And to use VAXen (I'll have to say, though, that I still > > prefer unix to VMS...) > > Why is that? I've no real experience with "unix" per se, though I do run I was using the term 'unix' generically, to include things lik linux > linux here on multiple boxes, and I don't know a darn thing about VMS (yet). It's difficult to really explain, but things I like about unix are the idea of I/O redirection and pipes, the fact that you can treat a file as a stream of bytes (OK, unix would benefit from sturctured files too, but under VMS I spent a lot of time convinicing the OS to let me do things to the file that are trivial to do under unix), the ability to nest subdirectories as deep as you like, and so on. Don't get me wrong. VMS is a fine system, and for some applications it's superior to unix. But that doesn't mean I have to like it for what I want to do. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 22 16:53:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:53:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <200608211859.43836.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Aug 21, 6 06:59:43 pm Message-ID: > > On Monday 21 August 2006 06:15 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > Torch sold an upgrade for the BBC micro which added an internal PCB > > containing a Z80 running CP/N (no, that's not one of my typos...). > > What is that, then? CP/N was Torch's CP/M-a-like. It could run most (all?) CP/M software IIRC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 22 17:23:00 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:23:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <44EB4598.4090001@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 22, 6 05:57:44 pm Message-ID: > I'm still surprised that there were any beebs incapable of running the Torch > board from their own PSU though. I believe there was a change to PSU spec at > some point early in the beeb's life though, so maybe very early systems > couldn't cope. Very early Beebs have a linear supply (a torroidal transformer and a number of 7805 regualtors IIRC). On early Beeb boards, the 3 5V pins are separate, and each is supplied by a different 7805. Later boards, designed for use with the SMPSU, have the 5V pins connected together. This linear PSU was well-known for burning the varnish off the dining room table.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 22 16:58:26 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:58:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608211613100654.16359294@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 21, 6 04:13:10 pm Message-ID: > > On 8/21/2006 at 11:56 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >I actually have a book of electrical things for boys to make which > >suggests makine a sausage cooker that simply connects said sausages > >across the (110V) mains. Hmmm.... > > I suspect that if one wanted to use 220v mains, one would hook two sausages > in series... Personally, I'd rather use a step-down _isolating_ trasnformer :-) > > >I am trying to rememebr other ways of determining the polarity of a DC > >supply. > > Salt (NaCl) on moist blue litmus paper will turn red around the v- pole. That is one type of 'pole finding paper (this is chemically-treated strips of paper that you moisten, then put the wires on the ends of said strip. It changes colour at one end, giving the polarity of the supply). Another well-known one is a mixture of starch and potassium iodide. At one time (before my time) you could buy pole-finding paper from electrical shops (or so I am told). These days only eccentrics like me have even heard of it > > I once knew a fellow who swore he could TASTE the difference when one lead > was touched to his tongue (the other being held between moist fingers). He > probably speaks with a permanent lisp now... Yes, a friend at HPCC claims to be able to do that. We've never needed to put it to the test, though (I have a Fluke DMM at the meetings...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 22 17:08:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:08:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <44EAB2AF.3070707@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 22, 6 07:30:55 am Message-ID: > > > > Well, the keypad was terrible (I ended up soldering 20 switches from > > Maplin onto the MK14 PCB, the holes and traces were there for them...). > > There were some very marginal bits of logic design (hint : a '157 is a > > multiplexer, a '175 is a latch, but the MK14 uses the former as a the > > display output register. It works for _some_ makes of '157...). The CPU > > buses are not broungt off-board, so expansion was a pain. > > Hmm, that is really surprising about the (lack of) expansion ability - I would > have thought it's one of the primary reasons in choosing a machine of that > class. I can't imagine doing something like in the ZX series (solder-pad edge > connector) would exactly have put the manufacturing cost up by much! Oh, the rear edge of the PCB is an edge connector. But it's not the CPU buses. IIRC, it's power input (the 5V line is _not_ brought back out again), the CPU I/O lines (flags, sense, etc), and the port lines from the optional 8154 RAM I/O chip. There's another edge conenctor on the right of the PCB at the front which carries the keyboard lines, and is clearly there to allow you to connect a better keypad. But IIRC, the connections for that are not given anywhere in the manual. > > > And so on. I > > wish I'd saved a little more money and bought an Acorn System 1. > > True - at least there was the ability there to re-use the CPU card and add a > eurocard lack later along with all the later System cards. Mind you, from > memory of Acorn ads they didn't really play up any future expansion ability - > I don't think Acorn saw it as a real selling point back then. Well, even if you didn't want to go that far, the ability to hang a couple mroe I/O chips off the machine was very useful. With the MK14 you were limited to the 16 lines from the single 8154 on the PCB. I had to add a bit of external logic to latch them in '374w or something so as to get more outputs. With the Acorn I'd have just added a 6821 or something. > > > Releated to this was a horrible bit of Torch design. As you may know, > > Torch sold an upgrade for the BBC micro which added an internal PCB > > containing a Z80 running CP/N (no, that's not one of my typos...). The > > Beeb power supply couldn't really supply that as well, so what you did > > was remove the Beeb PSU altogether, connected a cable to the power > > connections on the Beeb's mainboard, and run the whole thing off a PSU > > in the (Torch-supplied) disk drive unit. > > You know, my prototype Torch Z80 disk unit has power out at the back; I can't > remember whether the production ones were like that or not. It had never > occurred to me that someone would want to power the machine from it! I've seen Torch documentation which specifically tells you to remove the Beeb's PSU and fit the cable to plug into the back of the disk drive unit. But I don't know if it was 'production' or not. Most the Beeb stuff I saw was at Cambridge University where there was a fair number of prototypes around. > > In a way I'm surprised that the beeb PSU couldn't cope though - the current > draw can't be a lot worse than other various internal add-ons for the beeb. > I've certainly seen a lot of beebs running the Torch copro without any PSU mods. YEs, but that wasn't 'offiical' either. IIRC Acorn specifically fobade you to run anything off the Beeb's PSU. I think Torch tried to do things properly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 22 17:11:53 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:11:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Aug 22, 6 08:31:31 am Message-ID: > > > > Hmm, that is really surprising about the (lack of) expansion ability - I would > > have thought it's one of the primary reasons in choosing a machine of that > > class. I can't imagine doing something like in the ZX series (solder-pad edge > > connector) would exactly have put the manufacturing cost up by much! > > According to this advert from 1977ish some of the CPU signals go directly to > the edge connector at the back, also note the expansion at the lower right > for an external keyboard.. Typical Sinclair misleading advert, then... The SC/MP has some I/O lines on the chip. IIRC there are 3 flag outputs (on/off signals controlled by bits in the CPU status register), 2 sense inputs (which can be read as bits in the CPU status register, one can also be used as an interrupt line), and serial I/O lines which go to the 'ends' of the CPU extenstion register (which can be shifted under program control). These lines _are_ brought out to the connector at the back. But the CPU buses aren't. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 22 17:14:22 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:14:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44EAB63C.90801@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 22, 6 07:46:04 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > I actually have a book of electrical things for boys to make which > > suggests makine a sausage cooker that simply connects said sausages > > across the (110V) mains. Hmmm.... > > You really need a scanner - I'd love to see that :-) I think the book is still available (as a reprint). The title is somethign like 'Electrical Things that Boys Like to Make', it is (was?) available from Camden's (IIRC it's a Lindsay Books reprint). Many of the projects would give the Health and Safety Nazis fits these days. Asbestos board, anyone? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 22 17:17:38 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:17:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.0.20060822132900.06e3c690@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> from "Rob O'Donnell" at Aug 22, 6 01:32:32 pm Message-ID: > > There's one on eBay at the moment - Item 280020173050 - with a > picture clearly showing the rear with a DC out connector. It appears > to only be +/- 5V from the labeling, which I would have thought > insufficient to run a Beeb. So what WAS it used for?? That's all a Beeb needs. +5V for the logic and the +ve supply to the RS423 buffers, -5V for some of the analogue stuff and the -ve supply to the RS423 buffers. The normal PSU just gives out those 2 voltages. A Beeb will actually boot with just the +5V line connected, but you'll have no sound, and the serial port doesn't work. I found this out in the obvious way when restoring my Acorn Cambridge Workstation (which has a Beeb B+ in the bottom, of course) -tony From fernande at internet1.net Tue Aug 22 17:33:01 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 18:33:01 -0400 Subject: OT: Hotdog cooker links In-Reply-To: <20060822213250.EB0A758194@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060822213250.EB0A758194@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <44EB861D.1030704@internet1.net> Bryan Pope wrote: > I wonder what would happen if you did the same thing for a hamburger, > but instead of two nail use a flat round piece of metal... Would you > get a capacitive effect? Hmm, raw beef has a dielectric constant of 49 at 20C :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue Aug 22 17:50:58 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:50:58 -0700 Subject: OT: Hotdog cooker links In-Reply-To: <44EB861D.1030704@internet1.net> References: <20060822213250.EB0A758194@mail.wordstock.com> <44EB861D.1030704@internet1.net> Message-ID: <44EB8A52.3010105@mindspring.com> C Fernandez wrote: > Bryan Pope wrote: >> I wonder what would happen if you did the same thing for a hamburger, >> but instead of two nail use a flat round piece of metal... Would you >> get a capacitive effect? > > > Hmm, raw beef has a dielectric constant of 49 at 20C :-) > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > I have heard that if you did this with a pickle (preferably large kosher dill) that you could turn it in to a light bulb if you controlled the current (otherwise it becomes an exploding flashbulb). Never tried it, though. I like pickles too much to blow them up ;-) From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Aug 22 17:51:56 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:51:56 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 22/8/06 23:11, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> According to this advert from 1977ish some of the CPU signals go directly to >> the edge connector at the back, also note the expansion at the lower right >> for an external keyboard.. > > Typical Sinclair misleading advert, then... > > The SC/MP has some I/O lines on the chip. IIRC there are 3 flag outputs > (on/off signals controlled by bits in the CPU status register), 2 sense > inputs (which can be read as bits in the CPU status register, one can > also be used as an interrupt line), and serial I/O lines which go to the > 'ends' of the CPU extenstion register (which can be shifted under program > control). These lines _are_ brought out to the connector at the back. > > But the CPU buses aren't. Ah, the useful stuff, then :o| -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 22 17:53:28 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 10:53:28 +1200 Subject: Classic Mac emulation (was Re: Microkernels (WAS RE: New to the list.)) In-Reply-To: References: <44D42F82.2040208@gmail.com> <44D47B88.8040909@neurotica.com> <44D4E2A7.1090501@arachelian.com> <44EA4ADA.10106@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On 8/22/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Does anyone have any > experience with it? How is the frame rate? I really like the look > of Sheepshaver, it looks to be just what I'm after. Didn't it > originally run on the Amiga? ISTR, having it on my A3000. I don't know about "Sheepshaver", but "Shapeshifter" was a Mac emulator I used on my A3000 in 1996/1997. I even used it with SANA2 drivers to run Netscape 0.8 on the MacOS - very cool when Amiga web browsers were quite primitive. -ethan From marvin at rain.org Tue Aug 22 17:59:07 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:59:07 -0700 Subject: Simon Computer Message-ID: <44EB8C3B.AA35BD49@rain.org> I'm curious what the group thinks about offering a kit for the Simon Computer that would include a schematic, parts list, and perhaps construction instructions. For those of you who aren't aware, Simon is a five bit relay computer designed by Edmund Berkeley. A series of articles about how the computer worked was published in the Oct 1950 - Sept 1951 issues of Radio Electronics. I've thought about it, but I would guess the parts cost alone would be in excess of $300.00, and maybe considerably more. On the other hand, it is a really cool computer :). From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 22 18:14:49 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 19:14:49 -0400 Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608221914.49091.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 22 August 2006 05:52 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Monday 21 August 2006 05:50 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > > More usefully, I got to play with some fun toys like transputer chips, > > > ECL logic, etc. And to use VAXen (I'll have to say, though, that I > > > still prefer unix to VMS...) > > > > Why is that? I've no real experience with "unix" per se, though I do > > run > > I was using the term 'unix' generically, to include things lik linux > > > linux here on multiple boxes, and I don't know a darn thing about VMS > > (yet). > > It's difficult to really explain, but things I like about unix are the > idea of I/O redirection and pipes, the fact that you can treat a file as > a stream of bytes (OK, unix would benefit from sturctured files too, but > under VMS I spent a lot of time convinicing the OS to let me do things to > the file that are trivial to do under unix), the ability to nest > subdirectories as deep as you like, and so on. Actually that explains it pretty well, as there are any number of software packages, both operating systems and applications, where I've felt like I was fighting it more of the time than not -- which sounds like what you're describing here. And I'd really rather not. I have better things to do with my time. > Don't get me wrong. VMS is a fine system, and for some applications it's > superior to unix. But that doesn't mean I have to like it for what I want > to do. In what sorts of things might it be considered superior? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 22 18:18:03 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 19:18:03 -0400 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608221918.03820.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 22 August 2006 06:14 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > Many of the projects would give the Health and Safety Nazis fits these > days. Asbestos board, anyone? Indeed. The version I remember from "electric shop" in 7th grade used a couple of strips of metal which were mounted to about a 6 inch square of the stuff. Most of the fabrication besides making those metal strips and a set of four wooden feet was drilling the holes to mount all that stuff. The wiring was trivial. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 22 18:36:06 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:36:06 -0600 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44EB94E6.3090004@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > I think the book is still available (as a reprint). The title is > somethign like 'Electrical Things that Boys Like to Make', it is (was?) > available from Camden's (IIRC it's a Lindsay Books reprint). > > Many of the projects would give the Health and Safety Nazis fits these > days. Asbestos board, anyone? I suspect the sausage has more health problems than the way you cook it. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue Aug 22 18:42:16 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 19:42:16 -0400 Subject: Simon Computer In-Reply-To: <44EB8C3B.AA35BD49@rain.org> References: <44EB8C3B.AA35BD49@rain.org> Message-ID: <902C50E5-A7E0-4EE0-B444-B168766B1852@colourfull.com> On Aug 22, 2006, at 6:59 PM, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I'm curious what the group thinks about offering a kit for the > Simon Computer > that would include a schematic, parts list, and perhaps construction > instructions. For those of you who aren't aware, Simon is a five > bit relay > computer designed by Edmund Berkeley. A series of articles about > how the > computer worked was published in the Oct 1950 - Sept 1951 issues of > Radio > Electronics. I've thought about it, but I would guess the parts > cost alone would > be in excess of $300.00, and maybe considerably more. On the other > hand, it is a > really cool computer :). I think the idea has merit BUT I think it would be better to offer the schematic, parts list, and perhaps construction instructions / copy of the articles. That way, the cost would be substantially lower. I'm interested in the design, but doubt I would ever have time to build one. Rob Robert Borsuk irisworld at mac.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 22 18:45:04 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 19:45:04 -0400 Subject: Megadata available Message-ID: Tomorrow I am turning in my pile of white elephants to the scrapyard. Of the pile, I only managed to sell one, on Ebay, for less than scrap value (20 bucks - oh boy...). So away they go. I figure I will hold one, and make a last ditch sales pitch to clear my conscious. Anyway, these Megadata minicomputers are pre-microprocessor TTL designs, and look to be from the mid 1970s. The more I look at the boards, they look like twelve bit machines. These are rack mount units about 4U high. These have no fancy front panels - just blue covers with a reset button, and two LEDs. There are comm ports on the back. The software is contained on a board with a bunch of 1702A EPROMs. RAM is an array of 48 2101s. I have zero docs on these. So anyway, if anyone wants to rescue (in the true sense) this last Megadata, please contact me TONIGHT, as I leave for the junkyard around 10 AM tomorrow. And yes, I would like something a bit better than scrap value... -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 22 18:56:06 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:56:06 -0600 Subject: Simon Computer In-Reply-To: <902C50E5-A7E0-4EE0-B444-B168766B1852@colourfull.com> References: <44EB8C3B.AA35BD49@rain.org> <902C50E5-A7E0-4EE0-B444-B168766B1852@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <44EB9996.20007@jetnet.ab.ca> Robert Borsuk wrote: > I think the idea has merit BUT I think it would be better to offer the > schematic, parts list, and perhaps construction instructions / copy of > the articles. > That way, the cost would be substantially lower. I'm interested in > the design, but doubt I would ever have time to build one. The computer uses paper tape. The reader and punch for the paper tape could be a mechanical problem. Also you need a big warning sticker -- This is a demo computer -- Do not attempt to download music or computer porn --- From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 22 19:06:18 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:06:18 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608221918.03820.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608221918.03820.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608221706180456.1B8C90F8@10.0.0.252> On 8/22/2006 at 7:18 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >On Tuesday 22 August 2006 06:14 pm, Tony Duell wrote: >> Many of the projects would give the Health and Safety Nazis fits these >> days. Asbestos board, anyone? > >Indeed. The version I remember from "electric shop" in 7th grade used a >couple of strips of metal which were mounted to about a 6 inch square of >the stuff. The really old turn-of-the-century books have the kids using sulfuric acid, mercury, lead and lead salts,... Sometimes I think we're a bit overprotective. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 22 19:11:16 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 12:11:16 +1200 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44EB4DE9.3080003@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <44EAB63C.90801@yahoo.co.uk> <44EB4DE9.3080003@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 8/23/06, woodelf wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > >> I actually have a book of electrical things for boys to make which > >> suggests makine a sausage cooker that simply connects said sausages > >> across the (110V) mains. Hmmm.... > > > > > > You really need a scanner - I'd love to see that :-) > Why not just buy the book! I think they have have re-print > at www.lindsaybks.com This one? http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks/boyelec/index.html ... or are you thinking of a different title? -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 22 19:28:40 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 18:28:40 -0600 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: References: <44EAB63C.90801@yahoo.co.uk> <44EB4DE9.3080003@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44EBA138.8040801@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks/boyelec/index.html > > ... or are you thinking of a different title? I was thinking of a different title ... mind you this book has the sausage cooker in it. http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks9/ething/index.html now just what is a electric popcorn cooker ??? From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Aug 22 19:51:24 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 20:51:24 -0400 Subject: Anyone recognize this PCB? Message-ID: <01C6C62C.D8CFDE40@MSE_D03> I take it that despite the 35+ replies, no one actually recognized this board, or wants to make an educated guess? BTW, in view of the apparent confusion and at least one incorrect opinion, the non-hybrid D-sub S and P refer to female (socket) and male (pin or plug, depending on manufacturer) _connectors_, not the shell. Same thing for many similar connectors, such as XLR & DIN, where the shell is normally the opposite gender of the connectors. So, the DB25S below is the same as found on the back panel of most of our old RS-232 terminals & systems (or a pre-USB PC printer port). -----------------Original Message----------------------------------------------------------------- I'm hoping someone can ID this interesting board (sorry, no pix avail). 16Bit ISA (full-length) DB25S Connector 20pin header socket 10 pos DIP SW 10 seg green LED bar graph 3 sets of jumper pins 80186 CPU 2 x XC2064 XILINX FPGAs Pair of IDC 7130/7140 (1Kx16 dual-port memory) 2 x 256x8 SIPPs C8208 DRAM controller 2 x 27256 EPROMs 2 x DS1225Y BBU SRAM 2 x LH0033 Fast FET buffers (12 pin metal cans) Misc 74LS & F glue chips Nothing recognizable in the EPROMS or SRAMS; 1 EPROM is blank (erased/defective?) Ring any bells with anyone, or time to scrap for parts? mike From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 22 19:58:16 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 17:58:16 -0700 Subject: Megadata available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44EBA828.9050104@dakotacom.net> William Donzelli wrote: > Tomorrow I am turning in my pile of white elephants to the scrapyard. > Of the pile, I only managed to sell one, on Ebay, for less than scrap > value (20 bucks - oh boy...). So away they go. I figure I will hold > one, and make a last ditch sales pitch to clear my conscious. > > Anyway, these Megadata minicomputers are pre-microprocessor TTL > designs, and look to be from the mid 1970s. The more I look at the > boards, they look like twelve bit machines. These are rack mount units > about 4U high. These have no fancy front panels - just blue covers > with a reset button, and two LEDs. There are comm ports on the back. > The software is contained on a board with a bunch of 1702A EPROMs. RAM > is an array of 48 2101s. I have zero docs on these. > > So anyway, if anyone wants to rescue (in the true sense) this last > Megadata, please contact me TONIGHT, as I leave for the junkyard > around 10 AM tomorrow. And yes, I would like something a bit better > than scrap value... You might want to pull the 2702's and try to sell *those*! From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 22 20:01:30 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 18:01:30 -0700 Subject: Megadata available In-Reply-To: <44EBA828.9050104@dakotacom.net> References: <44EBA828.9050104@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44EBA8EA.9020909@dakotacom.net> Don wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: >> So anyway, if anyone wants to rescue (in the true sense) this last >> Megadata, please contact me TONIGHT, as I leave for the junkyard >> around 10 AM tomorrow. And yes, I would like something a bit better >> than scrap value... > > You might want to pull the 2702's and try to sell *those*! grrr.... s/2/1/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 22 19:59:35 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 20:59:35 -0400 Subject: Megadata available In-Reply-To: <44EBA828.9050104@dakotacom.net> References: <44EBA828.9050104@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: > You might want to pull the 2702's and try to sell *those*! The 1702As are already pulled. No need to worry there. -- Will From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Aug 22 22:33:11 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:33:11 -0400 Subject: MO support In-Reply-To: <44D43C26.80203@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44D437BC.50205@DakotaCom.Net> <200608042330190539.033D4404@10.0.0.252> <44D43C26.80203@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44EBCC77.5050406@compsys.to> >Don Y wrote: > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 8/4/2006 at 11:16 PM Don Y wrote: >> >>> Unfortunately (?) W2K seems to be the only practical >>> option I've found :-( >> >> >> Hmmm, I used (about 5 years ago) a Pinnacle Apex with 1024 byte >> sectors on >> (gasp) MS-DOS with no problem. Just takes the right device driver. > > > Yes, but that's yet another MS OS. :-( I would prefer > support on one of the *BSD but I don't think it's there, yet (?). > Or, barring that, Solaris. Jerome Fine replies: Then you probably will not want to use W98SE. I used a 1024 byte sector sized media few times with a Sony SMO S-501 drive just to see if it would work. As far as I know, the APSI driver handled it without any difficulty. However, since I was using it under the Ersatz-11 emulator at the time running RT-11, I did not provide a real test for actual W98SE use. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Aug 22 22:34:05 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:34:05 -0400 Subject: Free Newsgroup Access In-Reply-To: References: <44C05662.3000308@compsys.to> Message-ID: <44EBCCAD.6030303@compsys.to> >Rick Murphy wrote: > >On Fri, 21 Jul 2006, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> Hi All, >> Just thought I would ask for some help - are any text based groups >> still available? > > I use freetext.usenetserver.com - read only, but good performance. > When I want to write/reply, I use Google Groups. Jerome Fine replies: THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!!!!!! I set the required access up in Netscape 7.2 and it is functioning well. Much appreciated!!! I thought that it might be useful for others to know that "freetext.usenetserver.com" is available and that it works very well over 95% of the time. As for sending a write/reply, could you please provide a few hints as to how Google Groups work??? Do I require a user id / password, etc.??? Will my write/reply appear in "freetext.usenetserver.com" in the normal manner? ALSO, might there be any other servers which allow write access, even it it is very limited such as a text only post? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 22 22:33:57 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:33:57 -0400 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608221706180456.1B8C90F8@10.0.0.252> References: <200608221918.03820.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608221706180456.1B8C90F8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608222333.57406.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 22 August 2006 08:06 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/22/2006 at 7:18 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >On Tuesday 22 August 2006 06:14 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Many of the projects would give the Health and Safety Nazis fits these > >> days. Asbestos board, anyone? > > > >Indeed. The version I remember from "electric shop" in 7th grade used a > >couple of strips of metal which were mounted to about a 6 inch square of > >the stuff. > > The really old turn-of-the-century books have the kids using sulfuric acid, > mercury, lead and lead salts,... I have worked with sulfuric acid in the course of running a retail battery store, it's not a big deal, really. Mercury? Yeah, there's some around, but I haven't found much of a use for it. Lead and lead salts? In car batteries, for sure... What sorts of stuff would you do with those ingredients anyway? > Sometimes I think we're a bit overprotective. Yes. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Aug 22 23:54:50 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:54:50 -0500 Subject: canning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) Message-ID: Alexy said: >Show me the VAXen. Well there's your problem - VMS is mostly Alpha and IA64 now. Go to your local hospital, they probably have one, the school district I work for has one, etc. etc. The VMS beasts are mostly locked up in the back room (possibly even welded shut) serving lesser desktop clients. VMS interacts quite well with Windows. Nobody is arguing that DIGITALs "What's VMS? We haven't heard of VMS" marketing in the late '90s helped, though. >has been tested by throwing the same volume of script kiddies at it as other >OSen have had thrown at them you can't make any security claims based on >relative number of breakins. I wouldn't put too much value on the kiddies - they work by exploiting known holes and very few of them would find new ones. Look at the released security patches - that tells you more. VMS managers aren't going to stand by and let holes go unpatched for 6+ months. Look at the CERT reports. VMS is good - real good. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Aug 23 00:06:31 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 00:06:31 -0500 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) Message-ID: Quoth Chris >For what purpose now? Work with me here. As a night >light maybe? So you can see yer way to the latrine? Just for another slightly scary slightly unexpected aliment-electrical device. Set it up on a thermo{stat, couple, istor) to indicate when your hotdog has reached the ideal temperature, scare your friends or wife. I suppose modern research could have located something more efficient or better suited as a light source than the pickle, Digital Equipment's famous study is a bit old, but the WRL technote is the last formal study on the subject I've seen. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 23 00:20:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 22:20:36 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608222333.57406.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608221918.03820.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608221706180456.1B8C90F8@10.0.0.252> <200608222333.57406.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608222220360834.1CAC4ED3@10.0.0.252> On 8/22/2006 at 11:33 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >What sorts of stuff would you do with those ingredients anyway? "Make your own secondary cells" (H2SO4 and Pb) "Low resistance contact switches" (Pool of mercury into which a a contact is lowered "Make your own voltage calibration source" (Weston or Clark cell) Sometimes the old texts have very clever ideas. I have an old book on building pipe organs with electrical key action. Power on/off was achieved not through a switch, but by lowering and raising the electrodes of a bank of wet Leclanche cells in and out of the electrolyte using a pneumatic bellows. The same text recommends winding electromagnets with insulated iron wire rather than copper, to keep current draw down by virtue of iron's higher resistance. Cheers, Chuck From austin at ozpass.co.uk Tue Aug 22 20:44:16 2006 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 02:44:16 +0100 Subject: VMS is a naturally hardened OS (Was: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 22/8/06 19:49, "Alexey Toptygin" wrote: >> > Sigh. I didn't say anything other than what I typed above. The world is >> > full of misguided and/or clueless people who think VMS is "old", "dead", >> > "legacy" or some other such nonsense, while in fact it is extremely widely >> > used...just not in places that we hear about every day. > > OK, now I think you're being unreasonable. Who, pray tell, has these vast > secret VMS installations that we don't hear about? Show me the VAXen. > >> > VMS is not cracker-kiddie-resistant because it's obscure...it's >> > cracker-kiddie-resistant because it's well-written. > > I don't think it's fair for you to make this claim. There are millions of > known Windows, Mac and UNIX internet-facing computers that are under > attack every day. There are significantly fewer VAXen (100 times fewer? > 1000? 10000 wouldn't surprise me), which are attacked significantly less > frequently. > > You could be right, VMS could be very securely written; but until it has > been tested by throwing the same volume of script kiddies at it as other > OSen have had thrown at them you can't make any security claims based on > relative number of breakins. > > Alexey This is a bit like saying [Blithe statement alert] ?The BMW M5 is unproven from an engineering point of view because not enough have been made to show categorically that the wheels wont fall off during high speed cornering?. I believe that what Dave?s referring to is that VMS is superior from an * architectural * standpoint. This makes it less vulnerable to attack, hence its DEFCON kudos. I don?t need a 1000 pass experiment to know that mud is less likely to stick to glass than a splintered plank. ;-) -Austin. From vdub6 at comcast.net Tue Aug 22 23:00:47 2006 From: vdub6 at comcast.net (vdub) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:00:47 -0500 Subject: A little more Am2900 learning/evaluation kit info Message-ID: <44EBD2EF.FB63B340@comcast.net> Came across one of your old postings. Are you still looking for an AMD AM2900 Evaluation and Learning Kit? I have one I might be persuaded to part with. Let me know. Thanks, Mark From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Wed Aug 23 05:58:04 2006 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 05:58:04 -0500 Subject: Simon computer In-Reply-To: <200608230744.k7N7ih0r030809@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000001c6c6a3$02398210$176fa8c0@obie> > Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 15:59:07 -0700 > From: Marvin Johnston > Subject: Simon Computer > > > I'm curious what the group thinks about offering a kit for > the Simon Computer that would include a schematic, parts > list, and perhaps construction instructions. For those of you > who aren't aware, Simon is a five bit relay computer designed > by Edmund Berkeley. A series of articles about how the > computer worked was published in the Oct 1950 - Sept 1951 > issues of Radio Electronics. I've thought about it, but I > would guess the parts cost alone would be in excess of > $300.00, and maybe considerably more. On the other hand, it > is a really cool computer :). > Marvin, I probably wouldn't go for the kit (only because I've already got enough projects to take me beyond the year 2050) but I'd sure like copies of the articles. Any chance of seeing a .pdf version anywhere? Thanks. Jack -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/425 - Release Date: 8/22/2006 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 23 09:30:30 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 10:30:30 -0400 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> <44E5F74C.5000006@e-bbes.com> <44E60CE8.9030001@dakotacom.net> <44E618B7.7060604@e-bbes.com> <84fc84d4914d7d9a462f8d5e2f143b23@neurotica.com> <76848b33a5acc839da26cc11a4b64a9b@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <69062744eb742636b893ce636de0c86f@neurotica.com> On Aug 22, 2006, at 2:49 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >>> So what you're saying is that VMS is more widely deployed than >>> systems that _were_ compromised at defcon 9? More than Win32, >>> Solaris, Linux, *BSD? And where are these millions of VMS >>> deployments? I'm the secretary of a DC metro area system >>> administrators group (>300 members), and I've only heard of one VMS >>> system in the DC area mentioned in our group over the 5+ years I've >>> been a member. They were migrating off of it. >>> I'm not saying there aren't VMS deployments, but I think you're >>> saying they're comprably common to Windows, Mac or UNIX and >>> everything I know tells me that is wrong. >> >> Sigh. I didn't say anything other than what I typed above. The >> world is full of misguided and/or clueless people who think VMS is >> "old", "dead", "legacy" or some other such nonsense, while in fact it >> is extremely widely used...just not in places that we hear about >> every day. > > OK, now I think you're being unreasonable. Who, pray tell, has these > vast secret VMS installations that we don't hear about? Show me the > VAXen. They're Alphas, actually. Talk to Eric Dittman . He manages dozens of them, and works in an industry populated almost entirely of them. He used to be on this list, but he unsubscribed because of misinformed (but vehement) people such as yourself. In fact, I'm beginning to think you're actually Dick Erlacher operating under a different name. > I don't think it's fair for you to make this claim. There are millions > of known Windows, Mac and UNIX internet-facing computers that are > under attack every day. There are significantly fewer VAXen (100 times > fewer? 1000? 10000 wouldn't surprise me), which are attacked > significantly less frequently. The majority of production VMS machines today are Alphas, not VAXen. Do your homework before YOU start making grandiose claims. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From marvin at rain.org Wed Aug 23 09:31:26 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 07:31:26 -0700 Subject: Simon computer Message-ID: <44EC66BE.2074A3E2@rain.org> I love the comment about a warning sign for the computer :)! I have a perverted sense of humor, and that fits right in :). I've had a number of requests for scans of the Simon manual, but the problem is one of copyrights. A number of years ago, someone got copies of the articles from the Babbage Institute but with the restriction they couldn't distribute it. I've never pursued that, but I am certainly aware of it. I've got the original Radio-Electronics issues, the subsequent reprint and scans of the reprint. I have a better scanner now, and they need to be rescanned. Also FWIW, the Radio-Electronics magazines have color illustrations where they are in B&W for the reprint. Not much of a problem except the color makes it MUCH easier to follow, since some of the signals being discussed in the text are highlighted in red, and are not as obvious in the reprint. The next question then is what would it be worth to provide a working unit similar to the original (would need to use more modern relays, and the stepper could be a problem)? Making a simple electronic paper tape reader wouldn't be hard as there are a number of plans for a manual "pull the tape through by hand" designs to read the tape. I would think a PIC would make for a very simple and cheap design. Personally, I like the idea of seeing a hand wired chassis with laced wiring, but it certainly would take some time. What about a PC board with all of the grunt wiring done and laid out for a current relay? What would be the price point at which it might sell? Thanks! > > I'm curious what the group thinks about offering a kit for > > the Simon Computer that would include a schematic, parts > > list, and perhaps construction instructions. For those of you ********** > > I probably wouldn't go for the kit (only because I've already got enough > projects to take me beyond the year 2050) but I'd sure like copies of > the articles. Any chance of seeing a .pdf version anywhere? > > Thanks. > > Jack ********** > I think the idea has merit BUT I think it would be better to offer > the schematic, parts list, and perhaps construction instructions / > copy of the articles. > That way, the cost would be substantially lower. I'm interested in > the design, but doubt I would ever have time to build one. ********** > The computer uses paper tape. The reader and punch for the > paper tape could be a mechanical problem. Also you need a > big warning sticker -- This is a demo computer -- Do not > attempt to download music or computer porn --- > > > Rob From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 23 09:48:01 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 10:48:01 -0400 Subject: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <69062744eb742636b893ce636de0c86f@neurotica.com> References: <200608162245.k7GMj2qU017342@dewey.classiccmp.org> <44E3ACD7.2070502@ewa-australia.com> <44E5FFF5.8000701@yahoo.co.uk> <44E5F632.10202@dakotacom.net> <44E5F74C.5000006@e-bbes.com> <44E60CE8.9030001@dakotacom.net> <44E618B7.7060604@e-bbes.com> <84fc84d4914d7d9a462f8d5e2f143b23@neurotica.com> <76848b33a5acc839da26cc11a4b64a9b@neurotica.com> <69062744eb742636b893ce636de0c86f@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44EC6AA1.8040603@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >> I don't think it's fair for you to make this claim. There are millions >> of known Windows, Mac and UNIX internet-facing computers that are >> under attack every day. There are significantly fewer VAXen (100 times >> fewer? 1000? 10000 wouldn't surprise me), which are attacked >> significantly less frequently. > > The majority of production VMS machines today are Alphas, not VAXen. > Do your homework before YOU start making grandiose claims. I've been seeing them mixed together with Itanium-based VMS machines too. Peace... Sridhar From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed Aug 23 14:22:20 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 20:22:20 +0100 Subject: Simon computer References: <44EC66BE.2074A3E2@rain.org> Message-ID: <006501c6c6e9$746518e0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> From: "Marvin Johnston" > > I love the comment about a warning sign for the computer :)! I have a perverted > sense of humor, and that fits right in :). > > I've had a number of requests for scans of the Simon manual, but the problem is > one of copyrights. A number of years ago, someone got copies of the articles > from the Babbage Institute but with the restriction they couldn't distribute it. > I've never pursued that, but I am certainly aware of it. I've got the original > Radio-Electronics issues, the subsequent reprint and scans of the reprint. I > have a better scanner now, and they need to be rescanned. Also FWIW, the > Radio-Electronics magazines have color illustrations where they are in B&W for > the reprint. Not much of a problem except the color makes it MUCH easier to > follow, since some of the signals being discussed in the text are highlighted in > red, and are not as obvious in the reprint. > > The next question then is what would it be worth to provide a working unit > similar to the original (would need to use more modern relays, and the stepper > could be a problem)? Making a simple electronic paper tape reader wouldn't be > hard as there are a number of plans for a manual "pull the tape through by hand" > designs to read the tape. I would think a PIC would make for a very simple and > cheap design. Personally, I like the idea of seeing a hand wired chassis with > laced wiring, but it certainly would take some time. What about a PC board with > all of the grunt wiring done and laid out for a current relay? What would be the > price point at which it might sell? > I've got a scan of the articles, and most of the parts, including a (Creed) tape reader. I was planning on building mine to run from 50V, as telephone relays and steppers for 50V are still relatively common over here (and I have a large box full ready.....). The only difficult part to find was the tape reader (5 unit, solenoid stepped), and it does need to be stepped by the machine, as it forms the main storage (effectively ROM). An alternative would be a simple basic program on a PC, interfacing through the parallel port, or a PIC. Bear in mind that you need to be able to punch tapes to program the machine, so for program development, a PC interface is a better idea (I only have telegraph type 5 unit punches, so I have to provide a serial signal at 45.45 or 50 Baud to operate the punch - if anyone in the UK has a 5 unit solenoid type punch that they don't want.....) the machine is fairly simple, and anyone with patience and basic metalworking skills should be able to build one from scratch, however, be warned, the machine was published as an experimental design, and you will need to fill in one or two gaps in the articles. Jim. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 23 16:30:52 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 16:30:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OT: Hotdog cooker links Message-ID: <200608232130.k7NLUqXK025093@keith.ezwind.net> --- Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Peters" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 3:10 PM > Subject: Re: OT: Hotdog cooker links > > > > I built a hot dog cooker when I was 9, consistin g > of a small piece of pine > > (1x4 nominal), two nails, and a line-cord > connected to 110VAC mains. It > was > > based on an idea I saw in a book somewhere. My d ad > was absolutely sure it > > wouldn't work. It did. We disassembled it right > after using it because of > > the hazards of exposed line voltage and two poin ty > things sticking up. > > > > Those were the days. > > I recall a TV show a long time ago (some guy showi ng > kids how things worked) > was showing how to cook a hotdog like that (I thin k > they used those small > forks that you held corn on the cob with) and > plugged them into 110VAC for a > few seconds. The salty liquid in the hotdog > conducted enough electricity to > cook the hotdog in a few seconds. I bet that show > never gets replayed these > days because of lawyers. > > Hmmm... the only one I know like that (that isn't on today) was Johnny Ball Reveals All. It was a UK show though, but was great for learning about science and stuff... except I wasn't really into science much back then. (Johnny Ball is Zoe Balls (famous Radio DJ/TV Presenter) father). There is, of course, How 2 aswell. That show has been running in the UK since.... well, since I was a teenager. That makes it atleast 15 years old. Fred Dinage and erm... the other guy still do it, but Carol Vorderman left to do other things. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 23 16:20:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 14:20:11 -0700 Subject: Bill Norris Passes Message-ID: <200608231420110796.201AD38F@10.0.0.252> At age 95: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/23/business/23norris.html?_r=1&ref=obituaries &oref=slogin --Chuck From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 23 17:16:56 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 15:16:56 -0700 Subject: OT: Hotdog cooker links In-Reply-To: <200608232130.k7NLUqXK025093@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608232130.k7NLUqXK025093@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <44ECD3D8.2050702@dakotacom.net> >> I recall a TV show a long time ago (some guy showing >> kids how things worked) >> was showing how to cook a hotdog like that (I think >> they used those small >> forks that you held corn on the cob with) and >> plugged them into 110VAC for a >> few seconds. The salty liquid in the hotdog >> conducted enough electricity to >> cook the hotdog in a few seconds. I bet that show >> never gets replayed these days because of lawyers. As Mr. Lizard would say: "We're gonna need another Timmy..." From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Aug 23 17:19:02 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 16:19:02 -0600 Subject: dc021, was : Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20060816202236.01bd85c8@pop.starpower.net> References: <0J42008N9FX2DT93@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <6.0.1.1.0.20060816202236.01bd85c8@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <44ECD456.6040501@e-bbes.com> Douglas Taylor wrote: > > Is it a bad idea to try and salvage/reuse the DC021 bus transceivers off > the CXY08 boards that seem to be so common and useless? > Doug Anybody has a datasheet for them ? From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Aug 23 18:04:45 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:04:45 +0100 Subject: HP inkjet cartridge datasheet (from 1989 Opto Handbook) Message-ID: <44ECDF0D.9060708@dsl.pipex.com> Hi, Back in February someone sent me a scanned copy of the "Inkjet Printing Products" section (chapter two, all of ten pages) of the Hewlett-Packard 1988-1989 Optoelectronics Designer's Catalog. Unfortunately I've gone and lost the files to a dead backup CDR and it looks like I've deleted the copy that was on my webserver too... To the guy who scanned this for me (I think it might have been Joe Heck) - do you still have the scans, and if so, can you send them along? If not, can someone with a copy of this datasheet (and a scanner) please scan chapter two for me? Thanks. -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 23 18:17:43 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 19:17:43 -0400 Subject: 10BASE-T Ethernet Transceiver Message-ID: <44ECE217.30008@gmail.com> Does anyone within a reasonable driving distance of Poughkeepsie, NY have any Allied-Telesyn mini-transceivers they don't need? I can throw a few bucks into the deal to make it worth your while. Thanks. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 23 18:22:40 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 16:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 10BASE-T Ethernet Transceiver In-Reply-To: <44ECE217.30008@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Aug 23, 2006 07:17:43 PM Message-ID: <200608232322.k7NNMetk004797@onyx.spiritone.com> > Does anyone within a reasonable driving distance of Poughkeepsie, NY > have any Allied-Telesyn mini-transceivers they don't need? I can throw > a few bucks into the deal to make it worth your while. Thanks. > > Peace... Sridhar > I'm curious, why do you have a specific transciever? I had thought that these were pretty vendor neutral. In any case, I'm not close, and don't have any of that brand. Zane From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 23 18:32:46 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 16:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 10BASE-T Ethernet Transceiver In-Reply-To: <44ECE217.30008@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Aug 23, 6 07:17:43 pm" Message-ID: <200608232332.k7NNWl0i008016@floodgap.com> > Does anyone within a reasonable driving distance of Poughkeepsie, NY > have any Allied-Telesyn mini-transceivers they don't need? I can throw > a few bucks into the deal to make it worth your while. Thanks. Are those the little AUI ones? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Five is a sufficiently close approximation to infinity. -- Robert Firth ---- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 23 18:06:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:06:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Hotdog cooker links In-Reply-To: <44EB861D.1030704@internet1.net> from "C Fernandez" at Aug 22, 6 06:33:01 pm Message-ID: > Hmm, raw beef has a dielectric constant of 49 at 20C :-) Somehow I seriously doubt it's as high as that! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 23 18:08:24 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:08:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Aug 22, 6 11:51:56 pm Message-ID: > > The SC/MP has some I/O lines on the chip. IIRC there are 3 flag outputs > > (on/off signals controlled by bits in the CPU status register), 2 sense > > inputs (which can be read as bits in the CPU status register, one can > > also be used as an interrupt line), and serial I/O lines which go to the > > 'ends' of the CPU extenstion register (which can be shifted under program > > control). These lines _are_ brought out to the connector at the back. > > > > But the CPU buses aren't. > > Ah, the useful stuff, then :o| Actually, those CPU I/O lines _are_ useful. Remember on the MK14 that the 8154 chip was _optional_. Without it, that's all the I/O you get. IIRC that cassette interface (which I never got to work properly...) used one of the flag lines as the output (record) and one of the sense lines together with the serial input line (strapped together) as the input (playback). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 23 18:10:09 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:10:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <200608221914.49091.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Aug 22, 6 07:14:49 pm Message-ID: > > Don't get me wrong. VMS is a fine system, and for some applications it's > > superior to unix. But that doesn't mean I have to like it for what I want > > to do. > > In what sorts of things might it be considered superior? Anywhere where having structured files is a Good Thing for a start. And anywhere you need real security. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 23 18:15:37 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:15:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608221706180456.1B8C90F8@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 22, 6 05:06:18 pm Message-ID: > The really old turn-of-the-century books have the kids using sulfuric acid, Sulphuric acid is not _that_ dangerous, particularly if dilute. Mind you, I once had a long argument with a medical doctor who tried to convice me that hydrochloric acid is toxic. I wonder what he thought was in my stomach? > mercury, lead and lead salts,... At least one of my old electrical books -- I think it's 'Harpers Electricity Book for Boys' dating from 1907 [1] -- has you doing gold plating using gold and potassium cyanides (!). [1] Yes, it's an original, not the Lindsay reprint. And it's not the oldest electrical book I own. I have a few books on electric bells and telephones dating from before 1900. Yes, I like old books... > Sometimes I think we're a bit overprotective. Well, the darn govenrment is, that's for sure. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 23 18:17:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:17:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <44EBA138.8040801@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Aug 22, 6 06:28:40 pm Message-ID: > > ... or are you thinking of a different title? > I was thinking of a different title ... mind you this book > has the sausage cooker in it. > http://www.lindsaybks.com/bks9/ething/index.html That sounds like the one I was thinking of. > now just what is a electric popcorn cooker ??? Boring by comparison (if it's the same one). It's a nichome heating element fitted to an asbestos board, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 23 18:22:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:22:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608222333.57406.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Aug 22, 6 11:33:57 pm Message-ID: > I have worked with sulfuric acid in the course of running a retail battery > store, it's not a big deal, really. Mercury? Yeah, there's some around, > but I haven't found much of a use for it. Lead and lead salts? In car > batteries, for sure... I saw a label on a car battery which said something like 'Sulphuric Acid -- Corrosive -- Toxic'. My first thought was that sulphuric acid is not _that_ toxic. My second thought was that car battery electrolyte would almost certainly contain disolved lead salts, and would be therefore toxic. > > What sorts of stuff would you do with those ingredients anyway? Well, back then you made your own batteries (including lead-acid secondary cells). And of course electroplating. Mercury was used for contacts on relays, induction coil interrupters, timers, spinning disk motors, and the like. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 23 18:42:16 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:42:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Simon computer In-Reply-To: <006501c6c6e9$746518e0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> from "Jim Beacon" at Aug 23, 6 08:22:20 pm Message-ID: > idea (I only have telegraph type 5 unit punches, so I have to provide a > serial signal at 45.45 or 50 Baud to operate the punch - if anyone in the UK > has a 5 unit solenoid type punch that they don't want.....) FWIW, most 8 level punches can use 5 level tape if you adjust the guides. Sometimes the guides have pre-set positions for various widths of tape, and the 5-level one is there. Certainly my BRPE and Facit 4070s can do it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 23 18:51:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:51:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: 10BASE-T Ethernet Transceiver In-Reply-To: <200608232322.k7NNMetk004797@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Aug 23, 6 04:22:40 pm Message-ID: > > > Does anyone within a reasonable driving distance of Poughkeepsie, NY > > have any Allied-Telesyn mini-transceivers they don't need? I can throw > > a few bucks into the deal to make it worth your while. Thanks. > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > > > I'm curious, why do you have a specific transciever? I had thought that > these were pretty vendor neutral. Well, maybe he's spent time tracing out schematics and working out how to repair them, and he doesn't want to have to do it again on a different brand. But my experience suggests that almost all 10baseT trasnceivers use the same chip (8394?) in the standard application circuit. -tony From fernande at internet1.net Wed Aug 23 19:07:08 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 20:07:08 -0400 Subject: OT: Hotdog cooker links In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44ECEDAC.4040601@internet1.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>Hmm, raw beef has a dielectric constant of 49 at 20C :-) > > > Somehow I seriously doubt it's as high as that! > > -tony Tony, I found that with Google. I found similar numbers at different temps. Cooked was much lower.... around 4. Chad From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 23 19:14:33 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 20:14:33 -0400 Subject: 10BASE-T Ethernet Transceiver In-Reply-To: <200608232332.k7NNWl0i008016@floodgap.com> References: <200608232332.k7NNWl0i008016@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <44ECEF69.1070403@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Does anyone within a reasonable driving distance of Poughkeepsie, NY >> have any Allied-Telesyn mini-transceivers they don't need? I can throw >> a few bucks into the deal to make it worth your while. Thanks. > > Are those the little AUI ones? Those are the ones. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 23 19:15:32 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 20:15:32 -0400 Subject: 10BASE-T Ethernet Transceiver In-Reply-To: <200608232322.k7NNMetk004797@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608232322.k7NNMetk004797@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <44ECEFA4.7050703@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Does anyone within a reasonable driving distance of Poughkeepsie, NY >> have any Allied-Telesyn mini-transceivers they don't need? I can throw >> a few bucks into the deal to make it worth your while. Thanks. >> >> Peace... Sridhar >> > > I'm curious, why do you have a specific transciever? I had thought that > these were pretty vendor neutral. > > In any case, I'm not close, and don't have any of that brand. Primarily vanity. I'd like them to match the ones I already have several dozen of. Although, I've found that they tend to be among the smallest and most durable. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 23 19:17:59 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 20:17:59 -0400 Subject: 10BASE-T Ethernet Transceiver In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44ECF037.10202@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Well, maybe he's spent time tracing out schematics and working out how to > repair them, and he doesn't want to have to do it again on a different > brand. But my experience suggests that almost all 10baseT trasnceivers > use the same chip (8394?) in the standard application circuit. I have nowhere near enough time to sit down and fix an ethernet transceiver. I have a buddy locally who does (he's a retiree), and I just *give* him my broken ones and he reconditions and uses them. Anyway, my reason is much more frivolous. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 23 19:23:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 17:23:57 -0700 Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608231723570060.20C30DC8@10.0.0.252> On 8/24/2006 at 12:15 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >At least one of my old electrical books -- I think it's 'Harpers >Electricity Book for Boys' dating from 1907 [1] -- has you doing gold >plating using gold and potassium cyanides (!). Just be sure to keep the sulfuric acid out of the cyanide bath! I plate using a silver anode and silver cyanide and the solution (other than the bad reaction with acids) is relatively tame. Concentrated sulfuric acid is mostly noteworthy in its appetite for water, which can cause nasty burns. But fuming nitric acid can do far more damage, as it reacts with protein. Yet one can purchase very strong bases (lye) at the grocer's and fuming hydrochloric acid at the hardware store, so I don't understand what the fear is all about. http://blog.modernmechanix.com/category/chemistry/ Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 23 19:27:16 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 17:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 10BASE-T Ethernet Transceiver In-Reply-To: <44ECEF69.1070403@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Aug 23, 6 08:14:33 pm" Message-ID: <200608240027.k7O0RGxM007968@floodgap.com> > > > Does anyone within a reasonable driving distance of Poughkeepsie, NY > > > have any Allied-Telesyn mini-transceivers they don't need? I can throw > > > a few bucks into the deal to make it worth your while. Thanks. > > > > Are those the little AUI ones? > > Those are the ones. I like those too, I guard them jealously :) but I'll dig in the drawer and see if I have any free unallocated ones. No promises. > -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If your troubles are deep seated and of long-standing, try kneeling. ------- From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Aug 23 20:02:11 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 20:02:11 -0500 Subject: stack smashing Message-ID: <3ca176c309b64c4cb4b6d73c2524de65@valleyimplants.com> An informant has reported Will as stating > Use an AS/400. Hackproof and crashproof. And downright hobbyist-hostile. (where Sun is hobbyist friendly, SGI is hobbyist-indifferent (we really don't care if you use our machines, just don't expect any help from us)) Time-locked loadable microcode, impossible-to-transfer licenses and sky-high license fees if you can get IBM to talk to you. Saw a AS/400, found out about it, gave it a wide berth. Guess it must be like the HP3000 with too much of a "black" commercial market to risk anything that would make the systems easier to "misappropriate" commercially. Pity, everything I've heard about them is good. And the AIX group is hobbyist-indifferent. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Aug 23 20:06:08 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 20:06:08 -0500 Subject: stack smashing Message-ID: <757bb2a0477a4c878409b6899c98f5ed@valleyimplants.com> Don stated > And you have to ensure that there is *no* way the user can >execute code *before* your interpreter/virtual machine/etc. >gains control of the CPU. I.e., at the very least, you >need physical control over the machine. This isnt possible >in all cases (e.g., a consumer device!) You can make it very difficult, though. The X-box uses cryptographic hashes, the AS/400 uses completely undocumented (in the public sphere) hardware instructions. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 23 21:44:15 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 22:44:15 -0400 Subject: stack smashing In-Reply-To: <757bb2a0477a4c878409b6899c98f5ed@valleyimplants.com> References: <757bb2a0477a4c878409b6899c98f5ed@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200608232244.15280.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 23 August 2006 21:06, Scott Quinn wrote: > Don stated > > > And you have to ensure that there is *no* way the user can > >execute code *before* your interpreter/virtual machine/etc. > >gains control of the CPU. I.e., at the very least, you > >need physical control over the machine. This isnt possible > >in all cases (e.g., a consumer device!) > > You can make it very difficult, though. > The X-box uses cryptographic hashes, the AS/400 uses completely > undocumented (in the public sphere) hardware instructions. For the AS/400, it's *used to*... Newer AS/400 and iSeries boxes use PowerPC microprocessors, for which the ISA documentation is readily available. You may not be able to easily execute PowerPC instructions under OS/400 (or iOS), but you can also run Linux on them now (which IBM even supports). Well, and it's fairly easy to defeat the old X-box's security if you want to spend some $$$ on a kit and time with a soldering iron (or have the right game with a buffer overflow vulnerability :). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 23 22:12:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 20:12:24 -0700 Subject: stack smashing In-Reply-To: <200608232244.15280.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <757bb2a0477a4c878409b6899c98f5ed@valleyimplants.com> <200608232244.15280.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200608232012240881.215D489C@10.0.0.252> On 8/23/2006 at 10:44 PM Patrick Finnegan wrote: >Well, and it's fairly easy to defeat the old X-box's security if you want >to >spend some $$$ on a kit and time with a soldering iron (or have the right >game with a buffer overflow vulnerability :). ...and then there's the endless firmware-upgrade-and-crack game as played with the Sony PSP. --Chuck From ohh at drizzle.com Wed Aug 23 22:19:06 2006 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 20:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Where To Buy 74xxs? Message-ID: Hey, all: I've been thinking it'd be a good idea to buy and set aside some spare parts for the couple of DEC machines I have around... mostly 7400-series ICs, some switching transistors and such. It's been a while since I've bought parts, however. What places (preferably online) have you had good experiences with? -O.- From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 23 22:27:56 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 20:27:56 -0700 Subject: stack smashing In-Reply-To: <757bb2a0477a4c878409b6899c98f5ed@valleyimplants.com> References: <757bb2a0477a4c878409b6899c98f5ed@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <44ED1CBC.9000804@dakotacom.net> Scott Quinn wrote: > Don stated > >> And you have to ensure that there is *no* way the user can >> execute code *before* your interpreter/virtual machine/etc. >> gains control of the CPU. I.e., at the very least, you >> need physical control over the machine. This isnt possible >> in all cases (e.g., a consumer device!) > > You can make it very difficult, though. > The X-box uses cryptographic hashes, the AS/400 uses completely undocumented (in the public sphere) > hardware instructions. I just don't let them inside the case! :> From evan at snarc.net Wed Aug 23 22:38:45 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 23:38:45 -0400 Subject: For sale: Kyotronic KC-85 portable Message-ID: <002901c6c72e$cde0c280$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Hi all, I'm offering this to listmates before posting it to ebay / VCM / etc. ... It's a Kyotronic KC-85, made by the company which eventually became Kyocera. Most people know it better as the Tandy Model 100, NEC PC-8201, and Olivetti M-10. All three of those were OEM clones of the Kyotronic KC-85. I ended up with two of these and I only need one, so one's for sale. It's in very good condition, powers up fine with 4 standard AA batteries, and has 32K. Nothing else is included and I'll ship it anywhere. Asking for $50 because of its rarity and good condition. I'll consider interesting trades for handhelds / laptops of the late 1970s - late 1980s. Not looking for luggables. I'm specifically looking for a Sord IS-11, Teleram T-3000, and Grundy NewBrain models AD and M. But I'll listen to any reasonable offer. If you're going to VCF in the fall then I can bring it there to save you the shipping cost. Please reply OFF-LIST to spare the disinterested masses. :-) - Evan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 23 22:41:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 20:41:50 -0700 Subject: Where To Buy 74xxs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608232041500658.217839D5@10.0.0.252> On 8/23/2006 at 8:19 PM O. Sharp wrote: >I've been thinking it'd be a good idea to buy and set aside some spare >parts for the couple of DEC machines I have around... mostly 7400-series >ICs, some switching transistors and such. It's been a while since I've >bought parts, however. What places (preferably online) have you had good >experiences with? BG Micro has some. http://www.bgmicro.com as does Jameco http://www.jameco.com. Both have been around for ages and are fine to deal with. Cheers, Chuck From wulfcub at gmail.com Wed Aug 23 22:43:47 2006 From: wulfcub at gmail.com (Wulf daMan) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 22:43:47 -0500 Subject: OT: Hotdog cooker links In-Reply-To: <44EB8A52.3010105@mindspring.com> References: <20060822213250.EB0A758194@mail.wordstock.com> <44EB861D.1030704@internet1.net> <44EB8A52.3010105@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On 8/22/06, Don North wrote: > I have heard that if you did this with a pickle (preferably large kosher > dill) that you could turn it in to a light bulb if you controlled the > current (otherwise it becomes an exploding flashbulb). Never tried it, > though. I like pickles too much to blow them up ;-) I've never blown one up, but I have cinged them well beyond the point of being even close to edible. The effect is called Sodium-D Line Emission. There have been a few papers written on the subject, including one by seven engineers from DEC, titled "Characterization of Organic Illumination Systems". This paper should be available on the Compaq website, but it can't seem to find it right now. (Interestingly, they also studied stir-fried bok choy and raw mandarin oranges.) Penn & Teller printed directions for the pickle light in their book "How To Play With Your Food" (great book, btw), and it really does work. Pretty neat, gives off an odd yellowish glow. You can find info on how it all works, and how to make your own at: http://tinyurl.com/jku95 Best wishes, and always use a gfci or a really big stick. Shaun -- "If you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be a hundred minus one day, so I never have to live without you." -- Winnie The Pooh http://www.lungs4amber.org From jcwren at jcwren.com Wed Aug 23 22:47:38 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 23:47:38 -0400 Subject: Where To Buy 74xxs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44ED215A.1090701@jcwren.com> Mouser, Jameco, DigiKey. --jc O. Sharp wrote: > Hey, all: > > I've been thinking it'd be a good idea to buy and set aside some spare > parts for the couple of DEC machines I have around... mostly 7400-series > ICs, some switching transistors and such. It's been a while since I've > bought parts, however. What places (preferably online) have you had good > experiences with? > > -O.- > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Aug 23 22:55:43 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 20:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Hotdog cooker links In-Reply-To: References: <20060822213250.EB0A758194@mail.wordstock.com> <44EB861D.1030704@internet1.net> <44EB8A52.3010105@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Aug 2006, Wulf daMan wrote: > I've never blown one up, but I have cinged them well beyond the > point of being even close to edible. > The effect is called Sodium-D Line Emission. There have been a few > papers written on the subject, including one by seven engineers from > DEC, titled "Characterization of Organic Illumination Systems". This > paper should be available on the Compaq website, but it can't seem to > find it right now. (Interestingly, they also studied stir-fried bok > choy and raw mandarin oranges.) > Penn & Teller printed directions for the pickle light in their book > "How To Play With Your Food" (great book, btw), and it really does > work. Pretty neat, gives off an odd yellowish glow. > > You can find info on how it all works, and how to make your own at: > http://tinyurl.com/jku95 > > Best wishes, and always use a gfci or a really big stick. > Shaun I did this in high school with a plain cord with a switch on it. The pickle seemed to have enough resistance to not heat up the wire. It's also a very good idea to do stuff like this outside otherwise you'll stink up your house. The most interesting part of this stunt, I thought, was that only one end of the pickle glowed. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Aug 23 23:23:21 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 23:23:21 -0500 Subject: OT; Hotdog cooker Message-ID: <65feb6e409e647c6befe92f55ceb939b@valleyimplants.com> The DEC paper is Western Research Lab (WRL) Technote #13 at http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/Compaq-DEC/WRL-TN-13.html . I thought everyone here had already read it when I made the joke about the pickle as a hotdog-done indicator. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 23 23:35:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 21:35:09 -0700 Subject: OT; Hotdog cooker In-Reply-To: <65feb6e409e647c6befe92f55ceb939b@valleyimplants.com> References: <65feb6e409e647c6befe92f55ceb939b@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200608232135090597.21A90911@10.0.0.252> On 8/23/2006 at 11:23 PM Scott Quinn wrote: >The DEC paper is Western Research Lab (WRL) Technote #13 > >at http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/Compaq-DEC/WRL-TN-13.html . I thought >everyone here had already read it when I made the joke about the pickle as >a hotdog-done indicator. No, but it confirms what I thought the light source might be--an arc. Back when I was in college, I played around with a rather spectacular sodium-arc experiment. Using a 400 vdc power source, I connected a teaspoon filled with table salt to v- and a test probe through a 4H choke to v+. One could strike an arc by touching the test probe to the teaspoon and draw a stable bright yellow arc several inches long. I don't know if the choke served as a simple ballast or if it was part of a simple oscillator. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Aug 24 01:51:21 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 02:51:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608240656.CAA27460@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Sulphuric acid is not _that_ dangerous, particularly if dilute. Well, *any* acid is non-dangerous if sufficiently diluted. :-) Just compare, say, anhydrous acetic acid (which is *quite* nasty stuff) to white vinegar. > Mind you, I once had a long argument with a medical doctor who tried > to convice me that hydrochloric acid is toxic. Which it is, in the sense that most "toxic" materials are. > I wonder what he thought was in my stomach? And I wonder what you think ulcers are? HCl *is* rather nasty stuff, and stomach lining is rather special, to (among other things) withstand that toxicity. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Aug 24 02:39:10 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 09:39:10 +0200 Subject: Free Newsgroup Access In-Reply-To: <44EBCCAD.6030303@compsys.to> References: <44C05662.3000308@compsys.to> <44EBCCAD.6030303@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20060824093910.184ab45c@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 23:34:05 -0400 "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > ALSO, might there be any other servers which allow write > access, even it it is very limited such as a text only > post? http://albasani.net/ -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From joeheck at splab.cas.neu.edu Wed Aug 23 18:29:48 2006 From: joeheck at splab.cas.neu.edu (Joe Heck) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 19:29:48 -0400 Subject: HP inkjet cartridge datasheet (from 1989 Opto Handbook) In-Reply-To: <44ECDF0D.9060708@dsl.pipex.com> References: <44ECDF0D.9060708@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <44ECE4EC.5010301@splab.cas.neu.edu> Yup, probably was me. I'll try to remember to look at the machine the scanner is hooked up to to see if they are still there. Joe Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi, > Back in February someone sent me a scanned copy of the "Inkjet > Printing Products" section (chapter two, all of ten pages) of the > Hewlett-Packard 1988-1989 Optoelectronics Designer's Catalog. > Unfortunately I've gone and lost the files to a dead backup CDR and it > looks like I've deleted the copy that was on my webserver too... > > To the guy who scanned this for me (I think it might have been Joe > Heck) - do you still have the scans, and if so, can you send them along? > > If not, can someone with a copy of this datasheet (and a scanner) > please scan chapter two for me? > > Thanks. From dj.taylor at starpower.net Thu Aug 24 06:26:31 2006 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 07:26:31 -0400 Subject: dc021, was : Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <44ECD456.6040501@e-bbes.com> References: <0J42008N9FX2DT93@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <6.0.1.1.0.20060816202236.01bd85c8@pop.starpower.net> <44ECD456.6040501@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20060824072437.01bccce8@pop.starpower.net> At 06:19 PM 8/23/2006, you wrote: >Douglas Taylor wrote: >>Is it a bad idea to try and salvage/reuse the DC021 bus transceivers off >>the CXY08 boards that seem to be so common and useless? >>Doug > >Anybody has a datasheet for them ? I don't, I only suggested this because the CXY08 print sheets are available in the archive and it looks like a compact simple Qbus interface. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Aug 24 07:07:14 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 08:07:14 -0400 Subject: Where To Buy 74xxs? In-Reply-To: <200608232041500658.217839D5@10.0.0.252> References: <200608232041500658.217839D5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060824120714.43332BA413A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 8/23/2006 at 8:19 PM O. Sharp wrote: > > >I've been thinking it'd be a good idea to buy and set aside some spare > >parts for the couple of DEC machines I have around... mostly 7400-series > >ICs, some switching transistors and such. It's been a while since I've > >bought parts, however. What places (preferably online) have you had good > >experiences with? > > BG Micro has some. http://www.bgmicro.com as does Jameco > http://www.jameco.com. Both have been around for ages and are fine to deal > with. If you buy TTL parts from either of the above sources, they are also likely to date from the mid-70's, somewhat matching your machine :-). I won't talk about the house number parts and unlabeled parts that sometimes show up too! Amazing quantities of chips from the 70's show up regularly on E-bay. You know, quantity 100000 of 7407's etc. It's hardly the same as buying a few spares, though! Tim. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 24 08:05:57 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 09:05:57 -0400 Subject: Where To Buy 74xxs? Message-ID: <0J4I00EA46Y74272@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> >"Chuck Guzis" wrote: >> On 8/23/2006 at 8:19 PM O. Sharp wrote: >> >> >I've been thinking it'd be a good idea to buy and set aside some spare >> >parts for the couple of DEC machines I have around... mostly 7400-series >> >ICs, some switching transistors and such. It's been a while since I've >> >bought parts, however. What places (preferably online) have you had good >> >experiences with? >> >> BG Micro has some. http://www.bgmicro.com as does Jameco >> http://www.jameco.com. Both have been around for ages and are fine to deal >> with. > Add JDRmicrodevices to that list as well. Me I scrounged enough TTL (in tubes) to make my former collection look pitiful. Nothing like the right part in volume to make prototypiing easier. Allison From jim.isbell at gmail.com Thu Aug 24 08:45:44 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 08:45:44 -0500 Subject: OT; Hotdog cooker In-Reply-To: <200608232135090597.21A90911@10.0.0.252> References: <65feb6e409e647c6befe92f55ceb939b@valleyimplants.com> <200608232135090597.21A90911@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: try this, it works. http://c3po.barnesos.net/homepage/lpl/grapeplasma/ On 8/23/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/23/2006 at 11:23 PM Scott Quinn wrote: > > >The DEC paper is Western Research Lab (WRL) Technote #13 > > > >at http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/Compaq-DEC/WRL-TN-13.html . I thought > >everyone here had already read it when I made the joke about the pickle as > >a hotdog-done indicator. > > No, but it confirms what I thought the light source might be--an arc. > > Back when I was in college, I played around with a rather spectacular > sodium-arc experiment. Using a 400 vdc power source, I connected a > teaspoon filled with table salt to v- and a test probe through a 4H choke > to v+. One could strike an arc by touching the test probe to the teaspoon > and draw a stable bright yellow arc several inches long. I don't know if > the choke served as a simple ballast or if it was part of a simple > oscillator. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Aug 24 10:45:31 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 10:45:31 -0500 Subject: This is the classiccmp list Message-ID: <44EDC99B.80407@pacbell.net> Sorry for contributing to the spam level, but you have to break an egg, etc. I promise that if anybody replies, I won't reply to the classiccmp list. There are hundreds of people on this list; most post infrequently, if at all. It seems that 5% of the list have a hair trigger that demands that they respond to every message. That would be fine, but it seems like at least 50% of such messages are WAY OFF TOPIC. Yes, I'm shouting, and yes I'm making up numbers. All of these hundreds of people are very smart and know many things. Most of the sense to exercise some self control and not jump in at every opportunity to demonstrate their knowledge, or worse, their unsupported opinions. The ONLY thing that gives cctalk value is that it has a charter. There are untold avenues on the internet if you want to have free ranging discourse. Before you hit send on your next message to cctalk, ask yourself these intertwined questions: (1) Why am I not sending this as a private reply? Is it just your ego wanting to be seen as a smart person that needs a large audience? If John Public says cheese tastes bad, send John Public a private message if you want to tell him he is wrong; the rest of us don't need to know about it. (2) What new information is this message offering? Is it worth the time of 600 people (or whatever) even if all they need to do his scan the subject line and hit delete? This isn't IRC, so hopefully posts will be more thoughtful than that. (3) Is this message still about classic computers? Yes, the guy you are responding to might have thought it was OK, but that doesn't mean it was. Fight the drift. If you must reply, see #1. (4) If you still can't help yourself, do the next best thing, a practice that has seems to have disappeared. Reply with your marginal response, then add some on-topic tidbit to at least give a little nourishment to the list. "Obligatory classiccmp content: blah blah" for example. (5) Even if you ignore #1-#4, recognize subject drift and change the subject line. The "scanning formats" thread, which started on-topic, is now an umbrella for six different (mostly off-topic) threads. Yup, some of those off-topic threads had interesting content, but this is not the forum for it. If you want to argue it, then imagine if everyone who was into photography wanted to talk about interesting techniques, or everyone interested in politics wanted to talk about interesting power plays and developments, etc, etc. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 24 12:50:41 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:50:41 +0000 Subject: OT: Hotdog cooker links In-Reply-To: <200608232130.k7NLUqXK025093@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608232130.k7NLUqXK025093@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <44EDE6F1.5070706@yahoo.co.uk> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > --- Teo Zenios wrote: >> I recall a TV show a long time ago > > Hmmm... the only one I know like that (that > isn't on today) was Johnny Ball Reveals All. > It was a UK show though, but was great for > learning about science and stuff... except I > wasn't really into science much back then. > (Johnny Ball is Zoe Balls (famous Radio DJ/TV > Presenter) father). > > There is, of course, How 2 aswell. That show > has been running in the UK since.... well, since > I was a teenager. That makes it atleast 15 > years old. Fred Dinage and erm... the other > guy still do it, but Carol Vorderman left to do > other things. Tim Hunkin's Secret Life of Machines TV series is well worth a look too (http://www.secretlifeofmachines.com). I have vague memories of the Great Egg Race being really enjoyable too and featuring lots of homebrew gadgets - sadly I don't think it's ever been repeated though. These days there are just too many programmes for morons to fit in TV shows that actually educate people, I suppose :( cheers Jules ps. Any ideas why your emails to the list (and nobody else's) appear in a larger font than normal? Not sure if it's just affecting Thunderbird here or various other people's email clients too! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 24 12:06:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 10:06:57 -0700 Subject: Feelings about vintage systems Message-ID: <200608241006570436.2459532E@10.0.0.252> I've used a lot of different systems, but some stick in my mind as being particularly wonderful and others are but a dim memory. I've used DEC equipment (VAX 730 and 750), but never at an assembly or machine instruction level--there was simply no need. Unix is unix and everything's done in C at worst. So I don't remember much about the hardware and have no particular fondess or aversion to a system--it was just a box. If it broke, you called for field service; the peripherals were likely made by someone else, so even those weren't special. They were like my toaster--they did what they were purchased to do and when they didn't, there was someone who would fix them. Learn the right Unix invocation, know where to plug in the cables; after that, it's just a matter of putting the right software on it. On the other hand, there are many systems that I've programmed at the assembly level and have even developed hardware for that I remember quite well. Some of these were notably inferor to the DEC systems, but they occupy a fond spot in my mind. What I'm wondering is if one's feelings about "collectable" systems have more to do with the level of exposure to the internals of the hardware than with any intrinsic novelty of the hardware itself. Does this make sense? Since fewer folks are using assembly or machine language, does this account for the indifference to modern hardware? Cheers, Chuck From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Aug 24 12:35:31 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 13:35:31 -0400 Subject: Feelings about vintage systems In-Reply-To: <200608241006570436.2459532E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060824132225.05d9d0d8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >What I'm wondering is if one's feelings about "collectable" systems have >more to do with the level of exposure to the internals of the hardware than >with any intrinsic novelty of the hardware itself. Like anything else, depends on the person. Me? that makes very little (if any) difference. >Does this make sense? Since fewer folks are using assembly or machine >language, does this account for the indifference to modern hardware? Your theory sucks. If what you say was true, more people would hate IBMs because assembly coding on the 80x86 platform sucks canal water. ;-) I'm kidding... mostly anyway. ;-) Having learnt assembly on the 6809 & later the 6800 (which, coming from the 6809 felt rather constraining), I'm not at all keen on 8085 assembly, yet my Tandy 200 just gives me the warm fuzzies. It's also the machine I owned the longest before popping the warranty seal (13(ish) years - had to replace the internal NiCad). It's my toaster. I turn it on, type, program in Basic, work with the spreadsheet, and not one heckuva lot else. Yet, because it's been the most dependable computer I've ever owned [[ despite it being the least hacked & durned near the slowest overall as well ]] that it is still one of my favorite platforms of all time. But maybe I'm just weird. [[ OK, I *am* weird, but that's another show. ;-) ]] That's my story & I'm hiding under it, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Aug 24 12:37:03 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:37:03 +0100 Subject: dc021, was : Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20060824072437.01bccce8@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <007701c6c7a3$ec97dd10$07000400@uatempname> Douglas Taylor wrote: > At 06:19 PM 8/23/2006, you wrote: >> Douglas Taylor wrote: >>> Is it a bad idea to try and salvage/reuse the DC021 bus >>> transceivers off the CXY08 boards that seem to be so common and >>> useless? >>> Doug >> >> Anybody has a datasheet for them ? > > I don't, I only suggested this because the CXY08 print sheets are > available in the archive and it looks like a compact simple Qbus > interface. DC021 is in the "Digital Semiconductor Databook 1987 Volume 1". If it's not yet on Manx, I can supply just the relevant pages (the entire thing is quite large). Antonio From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Aug 24 12:42:24 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 10:42:24 -0700 Subject: OT: Hotdog cooker links In-Reply-To: <44EDE6F1.5070706@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200608232130.k7NLUqXK025093@keith.ezwind.net> <44EDE6F1.5070706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44EDE500.30004@dakotacom.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: [snip] > ps. Any ideas why your emails to the list (and nobody else's) appear in a > larger font than normal? Not sure if it's just affecting Thunderbird here or > various other people's email clients too! ISO-2022JP character encoding From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Aug 24 12:33:03 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 13:33:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Feelings about vintage systems In-Reply-To: <200608241006570436.2459532E@10.0.0.252> References: <200608241006570436.2459532E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608241739.NAA01190@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > What I'm wondering is if one's feelings about "collectable" systems > have more to do with the level of exposure to the internals of the > hardware than with any intrinsic novelty of the hardware itself. I suspect there's correlation, but I also suspect that the causality behind it is not as implied by that phrasing. Rather, it seems to me that the machines that one is attached to will be the ones that one gets to know at all available levels. For example, I know more than I really want to about the 8080 at the assembly/machine level - there was a time when I could read 8080 code in hex, without needing to explicitly disassemble it. But I don't feel nostalgic for the 8080, nor any of the machines I've used that were built around it. But the VAX, on the other hand, I am quite fond of, and I know it at pretty much all available levels in every incarnation I've run into. (I went through my larval stage under VMS, and when a friend recently gave me some VAX kit that had VMS on it, I found I remembered more VMS after some twenty years of not touching it than he, who had worked with it within the last few years, did.) > Does this make sense? Since fewer folks are using assembly or > machine anguage, does this account for the indifference to modern > hardware? I'm not sure the indifference you (and I) see is actually present. I suspect that what's going on there is that there are about as many people really interested in computers and computing as before, but these days it's harder for them to see one another because they're drowned out by the hordes of "computer people" who are just in it to get a decent-paying job and couldn't really care less about the stuff for its own sake. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Aug 24 12:48:09 2006 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 12:48:09 -0500 Subject: Feelings about vintage systems Message-ID: <20060824174810.XASQ4218.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> > What I'm wondering is if one's feelings about "collectable" systems have > more to do with the level of exposure to the internals of the hardware than > with any intrinsic novelty of the hardware itself. For me it really is more about the intellectual "value" in the design than about any experiential component. To be honest, I don't particularly like using computer to do things. I like making computers do things. As a result, I don't run any commercial software and very little of the other usual stuff most people run. So what does make a machine interesting to me? There are the architectures that I like, that make me feel an intellectual connection to the creators. These are ones that are clean or elegant or orthogonal, or whatever characteristic is particularly nice about it. These are the machines like the various models of the PDP-11. On the other hand there are those architectures that are far enough out of the ordinary that they're interesting mostly in just how different they are. The Intel 432 and the older AS/400s discussed recently fall into that catagory. In some cases it's the details of the design, like the aync PDP-10s and pretty much anything designed by Cray. Maybe it's interesting because of its historical influence like with the GE645 or the PDP-7. So the experience of using it is one of the least significant factors in it for me. Not to say it's negatively correlated. Some of my fondest memories are of low level stuff on PDP-11s, but most of the machines I'd love to add to my collection are ones I've never had any experience with at all. > Does this make sense? Since fewer folks are using assembly or machine > language, does this account for the indifference to modern hardware? For me, the "modern hardware" in the sense of PCs are uninteresting because they fail all the tests for interestingness. The architecture is something only its mother could love. But it's not so far out in left field that it's interesting in its own right. While the Intel and AMD guys have done a bang-up job squeezing performance out of a turnip and I'm sure some of the chip level details are interesting, the design of the overall machines is singularly boring. Now some people might think there is some significant historical value in the PC per se, but I've got to say I see it just as another step on a road toward smaller and smaller devices that will eventually approach the ubiquitous computing model Xerox talked about a while back. I can't honestly say that I see much intellectually interesting about the fact that it put computers in the hands of the masses. Sure it lets more people do more with them and I can now keep in touch using e-mail with people I couldn't 20 years ago, but I don't find that an interesting subject of study. It's kind of like the web. When things first started happening, one could recognize it as basically as networked, graphical 3270. The only thing that really seemed different and original was the fact that now the recipient was responsible for the format of the information instead of the producer (by virtue of HTML being a markup language not a layout language). But then people came along and made everything a table whether it was tabular data or not. "I don't care how wide your browser window is; these have to be next to each other." Then came style sheets and we lost the one thing that was really interesting, the chance to see what would happen with the one major change to the printing press model. So now the web is just another mass medium driven by advertising. It became less interesting as it became more "useful" and "friendly." If you've been skimming to see what the punch line is, it's this. My question is always, "Is it interesting as an object of study?" not "Is it interesting as a tool to use?" As always, YMMV BLS From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Aug 24 03:00:41 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 09:00:41 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:08:24 BST." Message-ID: <200608240800.JAA17736@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tony Duell said: > > > The SC/MP has some I/O lines on the chip. IIRC there are 3 flag outputs > > > (on/off signals controlled by bits in the CPU status register), 2 sense > > > inputs (which can be read as bits in the CPU status register, one can > > > also be used as an interrupt line), and serial I/O lines which go to the > > > 'ends' of the CPU extenstion register (which can be shifted under program > > > control). These lines _are_ brought out to the connector at the back. > > > > > > But the CPU buses aren't. > > > > Ah, the useful stuff, then :o| > > Actually, those CPU I/O lines _are_ useful. Remember on the MK14 that the > 8154 chip was _optional_. Without it, that's all the I/O you get. > > IIRC that cassette interface (which I never got to work properly...) used > one of the flag lines as the output (record) and one of the sense lines > together with the serial input line (strapped together) as the input > (playback). Yep, flag zero for record and sense B and SIN for play. (I still have the manuals and diagrams on my desk here from when I was looking stuff up the other day.) My cassete interface works fine, I loaded a program with it when I was digging the manual out, but it's a bit fussy as to level. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Aug 24 13:59:44 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 13:59:44 -0500 Subject: Feelings about vintage systems In-Reply-To: <200608241006570436.2459532E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608241801.k7OI1V8N032430@mail3.magma.ca> > What I'm wondering is if one's feelings about "collectable" systems have > more to do with the level of exposure to the internals of the hardware than > with any intrinsic novelty of the hardware itself. I think for some of us it does, I have "fond spots" for various systems that I spent untold time digging into every details of .... however I think that it may be more because "thats what we do" than a special thing about low- level activity in general. I get frequent emails from people who tell me about how a photo on my site has stirred fond memories of long-gone systems. Most of these are from users who don't program - or programmed very little, definately not assembly types. I get authors telling me how they wrote their first books on such and such a machine. Others tell me about varous software packages that they liked. Each found the machine unique and interesting for different reasons realting to what they used them for. > Does this make sense? Since fewer folks are using assembly or machine > language, does this account for the indifference to modern hardware? Computers used to be special - If you didn't have one, you worked to get into a position where you could use one. Off-time at the job site, or gettng to know the lucky SOB across town who has one. Some of us designed and built our own as it was the fastesst way to get "a machine". Each setup was different, different cards, prcoessors, system software - all unique and highly interesting. You would spend days/weeks/months figuring out how "everything worked". There was a certain joy in the creative aspect of doing a lot of it yourself as well. I wrote my own OS's, languages, tools, utilities and lots more - just because I found it fun. Now computers are more common than toasters (really - most of the people I know have more computers than toasters) - did you find your toaster especially interesting in the "old days"? Want a computer? - Just take a stroll down a few city streets on the evening before trash pickup. Unique - Yeah, if you count that fact that system A) has a different video driver and consequently exhibits different apparently unrelated bugs than system B) ... Want to understand everything about it? - good luck just disassembling the BIOS - not to mention the 100megs of "os". Want datasheets on the proprietary chips in the various peripherals - good luck (here's your winblows driver, have a nice day - and don't forget to update it from our web site). Want to write your own code - OK, this huge stack of manuals (excuse me - PDF files) is an approcimation of the API specs for the library that hides the undocumented details of the OS from you, yeah it seems daunting, but just pickup up a "learn to design complex software systems in 21 days" book - feh... computers are no longer interesting - they are overly complicated bug-ridden toasters. (but generally not as useful). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Aug 24 12:55:27 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 13:55:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: USR quad modems... (ontopic - really!) In-Reply-To: <200608221914.49091.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608221914.49091.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608241804.OAA01476@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Don't get me wrong. VMS is a fine system, and for some applications >> it's superior to unix. But that doesn't mean I have to like it for >> what I want to do. > In what sorts of things might it be considered superior? Well, it's been a while since I played with VMS, but.... VMS is generally far better at keeping independent users from interfering with one another through exhaustion of common resources. The VMS privilege model is immensely better than the Unix one (much finer-grained). VMS has better support for structured files of various sorts, and, while I've never measured it, I suspect VMS's performance is better when dealing with very large directories (tens or hundreds of thousands of entries in a single directory). There are various epiphenomenal differences as well (such as the support for various languages), but those are really differences in the support infrastructure rather than differences in the OSes proper. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Aug 24 13:42:56 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 12:42:56 -0600 Subject: dc021, was : Re: PDP-8 /e/f/m memory In-Reply-To: <007701c6c7a3$ec97dd10$07000400@uatempname> References: <007701c6c7a3$ec97dd10$07000400@uatempname> Message-ID: <44EDF330.8080608@e-bbes.com> Antonio Carlini wrote: > Douglas Taylor wrote: >> At 06:19 PM 8/23/2006, you wrote: >>> Douglas Taylor wrote: >>>> Is it a bad idea to try and salvage/reuse the DC021 bus >>>> transceivers off the CXY08 boards that seem to be so common and >>>> useless? >>>> Doug >>> Anybody has a datasheet for them ? >> I don't, I only suggested this because the CXY08 print sheets are >> available in the archive and it looks like a compact simple Qbus >> interface. > > DC021 is in the "Digital Semiconductor Databook 1987 Volume 1". > > If it's not yet on Manx, I can supply just the relevant pages > (the entire thing is quite large). > Didn't know they were still printing books in 1987 ;-) But if you could scan it, it would be great ! Thanks From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Aug 24 13:50:03 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 11:50:03 -0700 Subject: Sharp PC-1211 Message-ID: <44EDF4DB.6060105@dakotacom.net> Hi, I've a Sharp PC-1211 with CE-122 "Printer & Cassette Interface". But, I'll be damned if I can figure out how to make the printer *work*! It advances paper when manually commanded to do so. But, I can't figure out how to get the 1211 to print *to* it! Thanks! --don From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 24 14:00:26 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 21:00:26 +0200 Subject: Sharp PC-1211 In-Reply-To: <44EDF4DB.6060105@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44EE136A.22931.35A5F4D2@localhost> Am 24 Aug 2006 11:50 meinte Don: > Hi, > > I've a Sharp PC-1211 with CE-122 "Printer & Cassette Interface". > But, I'll be damned if I can figure out how to make the printer > *work*! It advances paper when manually commanded to do so. > But, I can't figure out how to get the 1211 to print *to* it! Try LPRINT "All your Printers belong to us" :) H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Aug 24 14:56:16 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:56:16 -0500 Subject: Sharp PC-1211 In-Reply-To: <44EDF4DB.6060105@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608241858.k7OIw2Y5013329@mail3.magma.ca> > Hi, > > I've a Sharp PC-1211 with CE-122 "Printer & Cassette Interface". > But, I'll be damned if I can figure out how to make the printer > *work*! It advances paper when manually commanded to do so. > But, I can't figure out how to get the 1211 to print *to* it! I have the RadioShack manuals for the PC-1 which is a rebadged PC-1211 on my site - this includes the printer interface manual which contains information about printing. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Aug 24 14:10:03 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 12:10:03 -0700 Subject: Sharp PC-1211 Message-ID: <44EDF98B.6040005@dakotacom.net> Hans Franke wrote: > Am 24 Aug 2006 11:50 meinte Don: > >> Hi, >> >> I've a Sharp PC-1211 with CE-122 "Printer & Cassette Interface". >> But, I'll be damned if I can figure out how to make the printer >> *work*! It advances paper when manually commanded to do so. >> But, I can't figure out how to get the 1211 to print *to* it! > > Try > > LPRINT "All your Printers belong to us" I've tried PRINT and LPRINT -- in all four "modes". No luck. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 24 14:20:02 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 13:20:02 -0600 Subject: Where To Buy 74xxs? In-Reply-To: <20060824120714.43332BA413A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200608232041500658.217839D5@10.0.0.252> <20060824120714.43332BA413A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <44EDFBE2.4080605@jetnet.ab.ca> Tim Shoppa wrote: > If you buy TTL parts from either of the above > sources, they are also likely to date from the > mid-70's, somewhat matching your machine :-). > > I won't talk about the house number parts and > unlabeled parts that sometimes show up too! > > Amazing quantities of chips from the 70's show > up regularly on E-bay. You know, quantity 100000 > of 7407's etc. It's hardly the same as buying > a few spares, though! The best source for TTL seems to be Unicorn Electronics for spares as they have a large selection of TTL, 74H 74S,74S and LS and 74L. http://www.unicornelectronics.com/ > Tim. > > . > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 24 15:32:18 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 20:32:18 +0000 Subject: Feelings about vintage systems In-Reply-To: <20060824174810.XASQ4218.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> References: <20060824174810.XASQ4218.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <44EE0CD2.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> Brian L. Stuart wrote: > Now some > people might think there is some significant historical value in the > PC per se, but I've got to say I see it just as another step on a > road toward smaller and smaller devices that will eventually approach > the ubiquitous computing model Xerox talked about a while back. > I can't honestly say that I see much intellectually interesting about > the fact that it put computers in the hands of the masses. Well if the IBM PC hadn't turned up, surely computers would have ended up in the hands of the masses anyway? There were plenty of good, robust, expandable systems with good software support worldwide at the time - all it needed was for society to be ready to accept 'the computer' on a wider scale. IBM just happened to be in the right place at the right time, and it's unfortunate that they'd built a turkey :-) -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 24 15:34:03 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 20:34:03 +0000 Subject: This is the classiccmp list In-Reply-To: <44EDC99B.80407@pacbell.net> References: <44EDC99B.80407@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <44EE0D3B.3020203@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Battle wrote: > Sorry for contributing to the spam level, but you have to break an egg, > etc. I promise that if anybody replies, I won't reply to the classiccmp > list. Sounds like you need to be on cctech, not cctalk. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 24 14:51:39 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 12:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Feelings about vintage systems In-Reply-To: <200608241006570436.2459532E@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 24, 2006 10:06:57 AM Message-ID: <200608241951.k7OJpdjb024673@onyx.spiritone.com> > machine instruction level--there was simply no need. Unix is unix and > everything's done in C at worst. So I don't remember much about the > hardware and have no particular fondess or aversion to a system--it was > just a box. If it broke, you called for field service; the peripherals For the most part, Unix is Unix. I try to avoid collecting Unix boxes, though over the years I seem to have collected a large number of Sun boxes. I have a definite fondness for Sun hardware, especially the Sparc 20 and Ultra 2. My current Sun system is a SunBlade 1000 (dual 750Mhz), and I quite honestly view it as something of a problem, it's a *VERY* nice system, but it's also to big. I have a couple SGI systems, and I *REALLY* like them, but am unwilling to use one as a primary Unix machine. In part becuase it feels like a dead platform, and in part becuase it is so hard to get software for. While my main system at home is a Mac, and I'm running 10.3.9, it doesn't really feel like I'm running a Unix system, more like I have access to a Unix emulation layer. My main system at work is a very nice Linux box. It has been over 10 years since my main system at home was a Linux box, and 6+ years since I had a Linux workstation at home (I do have a server that runs Linux at home) For the most part all the Unix apps I use, run on all of these flavors. >From a users standpoint there isn't much of a difference. Unix is Unix. The reason I try to avoid collecting Unix hardware is I'd rather run Unix on a nice fast modern system than an old system (haven't turned my Sparc 20 on since I got my first UltraSparc). > What I'm wondering is if one's feelings about "collectable" systems have > more to do with the level of exposure to the internals of the hardware than > with any intrinsic novelty of the hardware itself. For me the hardware has a minimal part, though I do like Q-Bus (DEC) and S-Bus (Sun) hardware. What I like about the various systems are the Operating Systems that I can run on them. This is a large part of why I'm so fond of PDP-11. I wouldn't say I have any real fondness for the VAX, largely because I like to run OpenVMS on the fastest machine I can, which means an Alpha. > Does this make sense? Since fewer folks are using assembly or machine > language, does this account for the indifference to modern hardware? The percieved lack of difference between generations is likely also a factor. Plus how many people have hated thier various PC's (largely due to the MS OS's). Zane From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Aug 24 15:01:04 2006 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:01:04 -0500 Subject: Feelings about vintage systems Message-ID: <20060824200106.CUOF4218.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> > Jules Richardson wrote: > Well if the IBM PC hadn't turned up, surely computers would have ended up in > the hands of the masses anyway? There were plenty of good, robust, expandable > systems with good software support worldwide at the time - all it needed was > for society to be ready to accept 'the computer' on a wider scale. IBM just > happened to be in the right place at the right time, and it's unfortunate that > they'd built a turkey :-) I agree. Whether it was Apple or IBM or Tandy or someone else, it would have happened anyway. If I had my 'druthers though, what ended up in the hands of the masses would have been more of a real appliance than something to be viewed as a computer. When you get right down to it the main differences among a game console, a dedicated word processor and a "personal computer" are the expectations of the user. Nothing wrong with giving the masses a toaster that can transform into a mixer. But when you foist on them a device that they need a class at the local community college to learn "how to use" then you've done a disservice to both the masses and to the computer scientists. To bring this back to the collectibility question, there have been a few machines that seemed to be pitched in that direction. But they never seemed to generate the momentum that "we've got these at work; I'll buy one for home" did. A collection of those would make a nice niche display in a computing museum. BLS From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Aug 24 15:39:42 2006 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 16:39:42 -0400 Subject: Feelings about vintage systems In-Reply-To: <20060824200106.CUOF4218.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> References: <20060824200106.CUOF4218.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0608241339x71750d79nfca040ef2c990ac7@mail.gmail.com> On 8/24/06, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > > To bring this back to the collectibility question, there have been a few > machines that seemed to be pitched in that direction. But they never > seemed to generate the momentum that "we've got these at work; I'll > buy one for home" did. A collection of those would make a nice niche > display in a computing museum. My father-in-law ordered a small lab of TI99/4A's when he was working for a company in the very early 80's. He was impressed with their capabilities, but ended up buying an Atari 800 for home use. They ditched the 99's in favor of the IBM PC's when they came out (I think it was an upper management decision,) but he kept using his 800 at home until finally "upgrading" to a 486 in the 90's. He still used his 800 along with his PC's though. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 24 16:05:15 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:05:15 -0700 Subject: Feelings about vintage systems In-Reply-To: <44EE0CD2.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20060824174810.XASQ4218.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <44EE0CD2.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200608241405150380.25338618@10.0.0.252> On 8/24/2006 at 8:32 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >Well if the IBM PC hadn't turned up, surely computers would have ended up >in the hands of the masses anyway? There were plenty of good, robust, >expandable systems with good software support worldwide at the time - all it needed >was for society to be ready to accept 'the computer' on a wider scale. IBM >just happened to be in the right place at the right time, and it's unfortunate >that they'd built a turkey :-) IBM was merely playing safe and making the smallest investment they could wihtout producing a complete piece of junk. Had Gary Kildall (may he rest in peace) been more flexible, we would most likely have been running CP/M and GEM--neither one a revolutionary product. When I hear someone talk about how "revoluationary" the IBM PC was, I grit my teeth. I think IBM remembered what a debacle the "revolutionary" 5100 was. The PC pretty much sold itself in the beginning. I can't honestly admit that I feel any sort of affinity for the Intel x8x (including the Z80), even though I've had tons of low-level programming time on the entire family. The processor family, right from the 8008, always seemed to introduce capabilities through an agglutinative process rather than through revolutionary design. I give Moto a lot of credit for rethinking their processor architecture periodically. The question as to what it got them competitively is a whole different matter. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Aug 24 16:12:24 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 16:12:24 -0500 Subject: Feelings about vintage systems In-Reply-To: <200608241405150380.25338618@10.0.0.252> References: <20060824174810.XASQ4218.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <44EE0CD2.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> <200608241405150380.25338618@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44EE1638.6090400@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I can't honestly admit that I feel any sort of affinity for the Intel x8x > (including the Z80), even though I've had tons of low-level programming > time on the entire family. The processor family, right from the 8008, > always seemed to introduce capabilities through an agglutinative process > rather than through revolutionary design. I give Moto a lot of credit for > rethinking their processor architecture periodically. The question as to > what it got them competitively is a whole different matter. Well, the other choice at the time was the 68000. 32-bit registers, yes, but it had goofy quirks all its own (didn't you halt the CPU if you attempted to read memory not on word boundaries or something? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 24 16:39:12 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:39:12 -0700 Subject: Feelings about vintage systems Message-ID: > Well, the other choice at the time was the 68000. 32-bit registers, > yes, but it had goofy quirks all its own (didn't you halt the CPU if you > attempted to read memory not on word boundaries or something? On the original 68000, instructions had to be aligned on 16 bit boundaries or you'd get an instruction fault. The associated stupidity was wasting a bit of the branch range by NOT having the branch target word-aligned. From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 24 16:43:54 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:43:54 -0400 Subject: OT?: TTL and other electronic junk... Message-ID: <200608241743.54270.rtellason@verizon.net> I sent my original reply to that poster offlist, but since there's some interest in this, have a look at my page at: http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/w4s.html which lists a number of parts that I have a *lot* of. Any of you folks want some of these, feel free to contact me offlist... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 24 16:46:01 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 09:46:01 +1200 Subject: Feelings about vintage systems In-Reply-To: <44EE1638.6090400@oldskool.org> References: <20060824174810.XASQ4218.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <44EE0CD2.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> <200608241405150380.25338618@10.0.0.252> <44EE1638.6090400@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 8/25/06, Jim Leonard wrote: > Well, the other choice at the time was the 68000. 32-bit registers, > yes, but it had goofy quirks all its own (didn't you halt the CPU if you > attempted to read memory not on word boundaries or something? If you attempt a read larger than 8-bits on an odd-boundary, the 68000 traps. Not the same as a halt - you are free to install a trap handler, but in practice, machines like the Amiga just went through an error dump (Guru Meditation) when low-value CPU traps triggered. I frequently wonder how history would have changed if they'd gone with the 68000 in Boca Raton. ISTR it was more of a cost issue than anything else. -ethan From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 24 17:00:42 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Feelings about vintage systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060824220042.79289.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > If you attempt a read larger than 8-bits on an > odd-boundary, the 68000 > traps. Not the same as a halt - you are free to > install a trap > handler, but in practice, machines like the Amiga > just went through an > error dump (Guru Meditation) when low-value CPU > traps triggered. Like a blue screen? > I frequently wonder how history would have changed > if they'd gone with > the 68000 in Boca Raton. ISTR it was more of a cost > issue than > anything else. I thought there were issues with the 68k in the early stages. Remember, IBM did build a puter based on it, some time later albeit, that monstrous lab computer thing. O man what I wouldn't do for one though... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 24 17:00:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:00:52 -0700 Subject: Feelings about vintage systems In-Reply-To: References: <20060824174810.XASQ4218.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <44EE0CD2.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> <200608241405150380.25338618@10.0.0.252> <44EE1638.6090400@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200608241500520522.256671AD@10.0.0.252> On 8/25/2006 at 9:46 AM Ethan Dicks wrote: >I frequently wonder how history would have changed if they'd gone with >the 68000 in Boca Raton. ISTR it was more of a cost issue than >anything else. A lot of of folks were hoping that they would. IBM came out with their lab computer using a 68K just before the launch of the PC. I suspect that the fairly complete line of peripheral chips behind the 8086 line was a big factor influencing CPU choice. I'm glad that IBM didn't decide on the 8275 as the CRT controller. That would have been a big mistake. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 24 17:20:46 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:20:46 +1200 Subject: Feelings about vintage systems In-Reply-To: <20060824220042.79289.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060824220042.79289.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 8/25/06, Chris M wrote: > --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > If you attempt a read larger than 8-bits on an > > odd-boundary, the 68000 traps... in practice, machines > > like the Amiga just went through a.. Guru Meditation > > Like a blue screen? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Meditation (complete with an animated GIF simulating the real thing). -ethan From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Aug 24 18:12:23 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:12:23 -0500 Subject: Feelings about vintage systems In-Reply-To: <200608241500520522.256671AD@10.0.0.252> References: <20060824174810.XASQ4218.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <44EE0CD2.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> <200608241405150380.25338618@10.0.0.252> <44EE1638.6090400@oldskool.org> <200608241500520522.256671AD@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44EE3257.5050901@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm glad that IBM didn't decide on the 8275 > as the CRT controller. That would have been a big mistake. I can't find any information on the 8275 -- why would it have been a big mistake? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Aug 24 18:35:06 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 16:35:06 -0700 Subject: Feelings about vintage systems In-Reply-To: <44EE3257.5050901@oldskool.org> References: <20060824174810.XASQ4218.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <44EE0CD2.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> <200608241405150380.25338618@10.0.0.252> <44EE1638.6090400@oldskool.org> <200608241500520522.256671AD@10.0.0.252> <44EE3257.5050901@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <44EE37AA.6040702@dakotacom.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I'm glad that IBM didn't decide on the 8275 >> as the CRT controller. That would have been a big mistake. > > I can't find any information on the 8275 -- why would it have been a big > mistake? It is *such* a brain-damaged part!! If you want to do something mindless (e.g., an MxN pure text display) it is only mildly annoying. (though it buys you very little!) OTOH, if you want to do something like build a "real" terminal, etc. it is atrocious! You have to pass lines of text to it "on demand" (IRQ). "Attributes" take up display cells (so, if you have a blinking character in row 1, the address of the characters in row 2, for example, are not "simply" X+length_of_row but, rather, X+length_of_row+num_attributes_between_there_and_here, etc. There are workarounds for this but it is just an ugly device to use. I maintain a product for an old client that (unfortunately) uses these. Every time they want to change the display contents, it is a major effort to figure out how to fit things together. I keep hoping they'll tell me they need a redesign because they can no longer find those parts... but, they must have a sh*tload of them hidden away someplace :-( From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 24 18:59:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 16:59:38 -0700 Subject: Feelings about vintage systems In-Reply-To: <44EE37AA.6040702@dakotacom.net> References: <20060824174810.XASQ4218.ibm61aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> <44EE0CD2.2030004@yahoo.co.uk> <200608241405150380.25338618@10.0.0.252> <44EE1638.6090400@oldskool.org> <200608241500520522.256671AD@10.0.0.252> <44EE3257.5050901@oldskool.org> <44EE37AA.6040702@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608241659380786.25D32E08@10.0.0.252> On 8/24/2006 at 4:35 PM Don wrote: >There are workarounds for this but it is just an ugly >device to use. I maintain a product for an old client >that (unfortunately) uses these. Every time they want >to change the display contents, it is a major effort >to figure out how to fit things together. I keep hoping >they'll tell me they need a redesign because they can >no longer find those parts... but, they must have a >sh*tload of them hidden away someplace :-( Yeah, what you said. There is an "invisible" mode where attributes don't take up visible space on the line, but then lines become variable length (as does the DMA count) and you're still limited to 16 attributes per line. It's very very ugly and perhaps the worst CRT controller (well, it and the even brain-deader 8276) I've ever seen. Cheers, Chuck From austin at ozpass.co.uk Thu Aug 24 19:14:38 2006 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 01:14:38 +0100 Subject: 10BASE-T Ethernet Transceiver In-Reply-To: <44ECE217.30008@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 24/8/06 00:17, "Sridhar Ayengar" wrote: > Does anyone within a reasonable driving distance of Poughkeepsie, NY > have any Allied-Telesyn mini-transceivers they don't need? I can throw > a few bucks into the deal to make it worth your while. Thanks. > > Peace... Sridhar Probably not what you?re looking for but... I have one AUI --> 10 Base-T Allied Telesyn transceiver. If you can post me an alternative, I?ll happily post you mine. I?m in Manchester, UK. -Austin. From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 02:38:35 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 03:38:35 -0400 Subject: 10BASE-T Ethernet Transceiver In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44EEA8FB.3030409@gmail.com> Austin Pass wrote: > On 24/8/06 00:17, "Sridhar Ayengar" wrote: > >> Does anyone within a reasonable driving distance of Poughkeepsie, NY >> have any Allied-Telesyn mini-transceivers they don't need? I can throw >> a few bucks into the deal to make it worth your while. Thanks. >> >> Peace... Sridhar > > > Probably not what you?re looking for but... > > I have one AUI --> 10 Base-T Allied Telesyn transceiver. If you can post me > an alternative, I?ll happily post you mine. I?m in Manchester, UK. You're *just* a bit outside "reasonable driving distance" from Poughkeepsie, NY USA. 8-) Thanks anyway, but I've managed to secure some. Peace... Sridhar From Gergana.Buchvarova at jci.com Fri Aug 25 07:10:53 2006 From: Gergana.Buchvarova at jci.com (Gergana.Buchvarova at jci.com) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:10:53 +0200 Subject: hp 10391b inverse assembler/HP 1660A needed operating system files Message-ID: Hi Glen, I read in ClassicCmp forum that you have operating system files for HP1660A, but I couldn't find them in forum. Is it possible to send me operating system files for HP1660A? (Or to send me link which to use for thise files download) I have to use logic analyser but there is a problem with it , which requires device to be flashed. Thank you in advance! Best Regards Gergana Buchvarova Engineer SW Validation Johnson Controls Electronics Bulgaria EOOD 14 Todor Aleksandrov Blvd. BG-1303 Sofia Phone: + 359 2 9306418 Fax: + 359 2 9306462 From brian at quarterbyte.com Fri Aug 25 12:31:42 2006 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:31:42 -0700 Subject: need freight & crate in Cincinnati -- recommendations Message-ID: <44EED18E.477.399650D6@brian.quarterbyte.com> Hi, I need to get a freight/crater to pick up a cabinet in Cincinnati OH, palletize and wrap it so that I can have it picked up for shipping. Can anyone recommend a company there? Could you email me off list? Thanks! Brian (this is OT: it's vintage computing stuff!) From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Aug 25 13:47:11 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:47:11 -0400 Subject: need freight & crate in Cincinnati -- recommendations In-Reply-To: <44EED18E.477.399650D6@brian.quarterbyte.com> References: <44EED18E.477.399650D6@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: <44EF45AF.5070208@atarimuseum.com> I suggest North American Van Lines, they actually bring wrap and corner guards with them and they handle "loose freight" (aka non crated) all the time. You can always run down to a local Lowes/Home Depot and pick up a palete from them as they'll give them to you for free. If you go with a crating company, that can end up costing you several hundred to crate an item, which then also added to the overall weight too. There prices are also fairly reasonable as well. Curt Brian Knittel wrote: > Hi, > > I need to get a freight/crater to pick up a > cabinet in Cincinnati OH, palletize and wrap > it so that I can have it picked up for shipping. > > Can anyone recommend a company there? Could you > email me off list? > > Thanks! > Brian > > (this is OT: it's vintage computing stuff!) > > > > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Aug 25 15:07:23 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:07:23 -0700 Subject: need freight & crate in Cincinnati -- recommendations In-Reply-To: <44EED18E.477.399650D6@brian.quarterbyte.com> References: <44EED18E.477.399650D6@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: <44EF587B.20906@shiresoft.com> I've always used CTS (www.moveit.com). They do a "blanket wrap" service. They pick it up, wrap it and deliver it to the destination. Brian Knittel wrote: > Hi, > > I need to get a freight/crater to pick up a > cabinet in Cincinnati OH, palletize and wrap > it so that I can have it picked up for shipping. > > Can anyone recommend a company there? Could you > email me off list? > > Thanks! > Brian > > (this is OT: it's vintage computing stuff!) > > > > > -- TTFN - Guy From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 25 15:49:08 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 15:49:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Feelings about vintage systems Message-ID: <200608252049.k7PKn8HW095856@keith.ezwind.net> --- Chris M wrote: > > > --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > If you attempt a read larger than 8-bits on an > > odd-boundary, the 68000 > > traps. Not the same as a halt - you are free to > > install a trap > > handler, but in practice, machines like the Amig a > > just went through an > > error dump (Guru Meditation) when low-value CPU > > traps triggered. > > Like a blue screen? > No, a Guru Meditation has a completely black screen with a rectangle in white/grey at the top of the screen. Inside the rectangle is a message a long the lines of "A fatal software error has occured. Press mouse button to reset", followed by 2 8 digit (hexidecimal?) numbers. The first one is the error code, typically 80000001 or 80000003, but I don't know what the 2nd number represents. If you get a coloured screen on boot-up (eg. grey, dark grey, blue etc.) then the Amiga has halted the self test due to a hardware failure of some sort. You would also see the Caps Lock LED blink a few times aswell. The colour shown when it freezes along with the Caps Lock LED flashing is used to work out what the problem is. I can post up more details if you are interested? There is also a "recoverable error", which gives you a Guru Meditation screen, but with a message similar to "A non-fatal error has occured. Press mouse button to continue". However, apon pressing said mouse button you can continue.... for about 5 seconds until the same Guru screen pops up, so you end up having to do a warm reset anyway! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 25 16:06:04 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:06:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: My large font (was Re: OT: Hotdog cooker links) Message-ID: <200608252106.k7PL64AO096347@keith.ezwind.net> --- Don wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > [snip] > > > ps. Any ideas why your emails to the list (and > nobody else's) appear in a > > larger font than normal? Not sure if it's just > affecting Thunderbird here or > > various other people's email clients too! > > ISO-2022JP character encoding > Sorry, I'll explain... I surf using my Sega Dreamcast (games console launched in 1998 in Japan, and 1999 for UK and USA) and I use the Dreamkey 3 (European) browser which is based on DreamPassport 3 (the Japanese browser). When altering it they left some things in, so when I reply to emails via the POP3 software they are all encoded in the Japanese character set (ISO-2022JP), as Don pointed out. Apologies if this bugs anyone, but I don't have a PC, my Amiga doesn't have a modem nor enough memory to surf the net (only has 2MB at the moment) and, whilst I can read, delete and move emails via my mobile phone, I can't reply to emails :( Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 16:02:57 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 09:02:57 +1200 Subject: Amigaisms (was Re: Feelings about vintage systems) Message-ID: On 8/26/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > --- Chris M wrote: > > --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > If you attempt a read larger than 8-bits on an > > > odd-boundary, the 68000 traps... (Guru Meditation) > > > > Like a blue screen? > > > > No, a Guru Meditation has a completely black > screen with a rectangle in white/grey at the > top of the screen. > Inside the rectangle is a message a long the > lines of "A fatal software error has occured. > Press mouse button to reset", followed by > 2 8 digit (hexidecimal?) numbers. I think what the OP meant was functionally like a blue screen on an MS OS, not visually identical to one, in this case, the answer is, "sorta-kinda-mostly", at least from the standpoint that it was the last thing you get to see before resetting the machine. In any case, the entire screen may or may not be black, depending on the nature and severity of the cause - with some errors, the entire screen was slid down enough to make room for the Guru Meditation box, which had a blinking red border and red text inside (red it fatal, yellow if not, but that was rare). There _could be_ a "Software Failure" requester box with "press mouse button to reset", but that was _prior_ to a Guru Meditation screen, not the Guru Meditation itself. > The first one is the error code, typically 80000001 or 80000003, Those are examples of 68000 trap error codes... 80000003 in particular happens to be the odd address trap that started things off (it was rather common, especially if your code went off into the weeds and tried to execute an instruction on an odd-byte boundary). There were also _lots_ of error codes that could tell you specifics about what really went wrong, but unless you had the Rom Kernel Manual (RKM) handy or did a lot of development, people ignored the numbers. > but I don't know what the 2nd number represents. Either "HELP" in ASCII (0x48454C50) or the address of the process that was running when the machine puked. It was only useful if you were a developer and used it to fire up ROMWack (an internal debugger) to sift through the remains of your process to see what it was doing when something went wrong. Mostly, though, the second number wasn't particularly helpful. > There is also a "recoverable error", which > gives you a Guru Meditation screen, but with > a message similar to "A non-fatal error has > occured. Press mouse button to continue". > However, apon pressing said mouse button you > can continue.... for about 5 seconds until > the same Guru screen pops up, so you end up > having to do a warm reset anyway! Yeah.... typically, if you got a recoverable error, something was likely to happen shortly thereafter that wasn't recoverable. -ethan From spc at conman.org Fri Aug 25 13:37:12 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:37:12 -0400 Subject: Feelings about vintage systems In-Reply-To: <200608252049.k7PKn8HW095856@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608252049.k7PKn8HW095856@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20060825183711.GA15676@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk once stated: > > No, a Guru Meditation has a completely black > screen with a rectangle in white/grey at the > top of the screen. > Inside the rectangle is a message a long the > lines of "A fatal software error has occured. > Press mouse button to reset", followed by > 2 8 digit (hexidecimal?) numbers. The first one > is the error code, typically 80000001 or 80000003, > but I don't know what the 2nd number represents. The second number is the address of the task structure of the offending program. You can also hook up a terminal to the serial port (9600 8n1) and get into a very rudimentary monitor to help trouble shoot what the heck happened. I also have (had?) a list of what the various error codes were. I even wrote some library code that would catch exceptions (that most often would lead to a Guru meditation) that would allow you to either guru out, or continue running the program. It's for AmigaOS 1.3 but if anyone wants a copy ... -spc (written about a decade ago ... ) From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 25 16:30:33 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:30:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Amigaisms (was Re: Feelings about vintage systems) Message-ID: <200608252130.k7PLUXJu097083@keith.ezwind.net> --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/26/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > wrote: > > --- Chris M wrote: > > > --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > If you attempt a read larger than 8-bits on an > > > > odd-boundary, the 68000 traps... (Guru > Meditation) > > > > > > Like a blue screen? > > > > > > > No, a Guru Meditation has a completely black > > screen with a rectangle in white/grey at the > > top of the screen. > > Inside the rectangle is a message a long the > > lines of "A fatal software error has occured. > > Press mouse button to reset", followed by > > 2 8 digit (hexidecimal?) numbers. > > I think what the OP meant was functionally like a > blue screen on an MS > OS, not visually identical to one Ahh, yes. I have never had the pleasure of seeing the blue screen on an MS OS, the computers at work generally freeze up completely. > > In any case, the entire screen may or may not be > black, depending on > the nature and severity of the cause - with some > errors, the entire > screen was slid down enough to make room for the > Guru Meditation box, > which had a blinking red border and red text insid e > (red it fatal, > yellow if not, but that was rare). There _could b e_ > a "Software > Failure" requester box with "press mouse button to > reset", but that > was _prior_ to a Guru Meditation screen, not the > Guru Meditation > itself. > > > The first one is the error code, typically > 80000001 or 80000003, > > Those are examples of 68000 trap error codes... > 80000003 in particular > happens to be the odd address trap that started > things off (it was > rather common, especially if your code went off in to > the weeds and > tried to execute an instruction on an odd-byte > boundary). > > There were also _lots_ of error codes that could > tell you specifics > about what really went wrong, but unless you had t he > Rom Kernel Manual > (RKM) handy or did a lot of development, people > ignored the numbers. > > > but I don't know what the 2nd number represents . > > Either "HELP" in ASCII (0x48454C50) or the address > of the process that > was running when the machine puked. It was only > useful if you were a > developer and used it to fire up ROMWack (an > internal debugger) to > sift through the remains of your process to see wh at > it was doing when > something went wrong. Mostly, though, the second > number wasn't > particularly helpful. "ROMWack is an internal debugger", do you mean it's stored internally (ROM) and can be accessed when things go wrong, or is it some external program that can be run to see whats wrong? That could be useful if I could use it as I have some games/software that sometimes causes it to Guru, even after pluggin in my 4MB RAM PCMCIA card to give my Amiga 600 a total of 6MB of memory. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 25 16:38:42 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:38:42 -0700 Subject: Good deals on PC100/133 DIMMs? Message-ID: <200608251438420383.004312DC@10.0.0.252> I'm upgrading some systems here and am looking for some good deals on 256MB PC100 or PC133 DIMMs. Any suggestions? (The systems are just 10 years old, so it's OT) Cheers, Chuck From fernande at internet1.net Fri Aug 25 16:51:21 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:51:21 -0400 Subject: My large font (was Re: OT: Hotdog cooker links) In-Reply-To: <200608252106.k7PL64AO096347@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608252106.k7PL64AO096347@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <44EF70D9.1030901@internet1.net> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Sorry, I'll explain... > > I surf using my Sega Dreamcast..... Cool! > Apologies if this bugs anyone.... No problems here! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 25 16:18:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 22:18:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608231723570060.20C30DC8@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 23, 6 05:23:57 pm Message-ID: > Just be sure to keep the sulfuric acid out of the cyanide bath! I plate > using a silver anode and silver cyanide and the solution (other than the > bad reaction with acids) is relatively tame. I still wouldn't want to drink it... > > Concentrated sulfuric acid is mostly noteworthy in its appetite for water, > which can cause nasty burns. But fuming nitric acid can do far more > damage, as it reacts with protein. Yet one can purchase very strong bases Nitric acid is difficult to obtain over here because of the obvious (?) use in nitrating things. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 25 16:42:06 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 22:42:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: stack smashing Was: Re: Scanning Formats (TIFF vs. JPEG) In-Reply-To: <200608240656.CAA27460@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Aug 24, 6 02:51:21 am Message-ID: > > > Sulphuric acid is not _that_ dangerous, particularly if dilute. > > Well, *any* acid is non-dangerous if sufficiently diluted. :-) I would not want to drink HCN (prussic acid) at any concnetration. > > Mind you, I once had a long argument with a medical doctor who tried > > to convice me that hydrochloric acid is toxic. > > Which it is, in the sense that most "toxic" materials are. No, I disagree. If I took, say M/10 HCl and drank a glassful, it wouldn't do me any lasting harm. It would be no worce that vomiting. Not pleasant, but I'd live to tell you about it. > > > I wonder what he thought was in my stomach? > > And I wonder what you think ulcers are? HCl *is* rather nasty stuff, > and stomach lining is rather special, to (among other things) withstand > that toxicity. No, to wirthstand the corrosiveneess. When I vomit, thr stomach acid comes up the tube it would go down if I drank some acid. As I said, it's not pleasant, but it's not fatal either. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 25 16:47:38 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 22:47:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Feelings about vintage systems In-Reply-To: <200608241006570436.2459532E@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 24, 6 10:06:57 am Message-ID: > What I'm wondering is if one's feelings about "collectable" systems have > more to do with the level of exposure to the internals of the hardware than > with any intrinsic novelty of the hardware itself. Well, I am really only interested in machines where I can 'get among the hardware' -- the lower the level the better.And I do try to appreciate interesting design. One reason I like the PERQ is that it's a user-microprogrammable CPU, another is that the design is so darn elegant. One reason I like the HP98x0 is that they're one of the few common bit-serial machines. > > Does this make sense? Since fewer folks are using assembly or machine > language, does this account for the indifference to modern hardware? My dislike of modern hardware comes from the fact you can't get among it. Big custom chips with no data sheets (and even if there were, I couldn't put my 'scope proble on the point I wanted to look at because it's inside an IC). Darn it, with BGAs I can't even probe the connections to the ICs. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 17:01:08 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 10:01:08 +1200 Subject: Amigaisms (was Re: Feelings about vintage systems) In-Reply-To: <200608252130.k7PLUXJu097083@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608252130.k7PLUXJu097083@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 8/26/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > "ROMWack is an internal debugger", do you > mean it's stored internally (ROM) and can be > accessed when things go wrong, or is it some > external program that can be run to see whats > wrong? It's internal if you have an old-enough version of the ROMs. I know it was there in 1.2, but I don't know if it's still in there for 2.0 and up. You need a serial terminal (or computer running a terminal emulator) at 9600 baud on the serial port. Instructions are on the 'net somewhere for how to get into it during a Guru situation (I don't have an Amiga in front of me and can't check now). > That could be useful if I could use it as I have > some games/software that sometimes causes > it to Guru, even after pluggin in my 4MB > RAM PCMCIA card to give my Amiga 600 a total > of 6MB of memory. Hmm... in that particular case, you might or might not be able to do anything interesting, depending on how deeply you want to dig in your game. ROMWack is not symbolic - you'll need to know intimate details about the code you want to debug. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 25 18:05:33 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 23:05:33 +0000 Subject: My large font (was Re: OT: Hotdog cooker links) In-Reply-To: <200608252106.k7PL64AO096347@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608252106.k7PL64AO096347@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <44EF823D.8000608@yahoo.co.uk> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > I surf using my Sega Dreamcast (games console > launched in 1998 in Japan, and 1999 for UK and USA) > and I use the Dreamkey 3 (European) browser > which is based on DreamPassport 3 (the > Japanese browser). When altering it they > left some things in, so when I reply to emails > via the POP3 software they are all encoded > in the Japanese character set (ISO-2022JP), > as Don pointed out. Heh heh, that's sufficiently bonkers that I think I can live with it ;-) cheers Jules From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Aug 25 17:16:32 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 23:16:32 +0100 Subject: My large font (was Re: OT: Hotdog cooker links) References: <200608252106.k7PL64AO096347@keith.ezwind.net> <44EF823D.8000608@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <008d01c6c894$1f4a0ee0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > I surf using my Sega Dreamcast (games console > > launched in 1998 in Japan, and 1999 for UK and USA) > > and I use the Dreamkey 3 (European) browser > > which is based on DreamPassport 3 (the > > Japanese browser). When altering it they > > left some things in, so when I reply to emails > > via the POP3 software they are all encoded > > in the Japanese character set (ISO-2022JP), > > as Don pointed out. > > Heh heh, that's sufficiently bonkers that I think I can live with it ;-) > > cheers > > Jules > The only oddity here, is that opening the message tries to load JAVA (I have it for some other applets......). I guess most people have JAVA disabled. Jim. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 25 17:52:11 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:52:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: My large font (was Re: OT: Hotdog cooker links) Message-ID: <200608252252.k7PMqBr2099292@keith.ezwind.net> --- Jim Beacon wrote: > > > > > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > > I surf using my Sega Dreamcast (games console > > > launched in 1998 in Japan, and 1999 for UK and > USA) > > > and I use the Dreamkey 3 (European) browser > > > which is based on DreamPassport 3 (the > > > Japanese browser). When altering it they > > > left some things in, so when I reply to emails > > > via the POP3 software they are all encoded > > > in the Japanese character set (ISO-2022JP), > > > as Don pointed out. > > > > Heh heh, that's sufficiently bonkers that I thin k > I can live with it ;-) > > > > cheers > > > > Jules > > > The only oddity here, is that opening the message > tries to load JAVA (I have > it for some other applets......). I guess most > people have JAVA disabled. > > Jim. > Yeah, I have been told something like that before. I guess it's triggered by having the email encoded in ISO-2022JP? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 22:22:56 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 23:22:56 -0400 Subject: Feelings about vintage systems In-Reply-To: <20060824220042.79289.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060824220042.79289.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I thought there were issues with the 68k in the early > stages. Remember, IBM did build a puter based on it, > some time later albeit, that monstrous lab computer > thing. I think the LS/9000s were not designed by IBM. The IBM Lab Systems division was purchased Cisco-style. -- Will From ray at arachelian.com Fri Aug 25 23:29:54 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 00:29:54 -0400 Subject: OT: Hotdog cooker links In-Reply-To: References: <20060822213250.EB0A758194@mail.wordstock.com> <44EB861D.1030704@internet1.net> <44EB8A52.3010105@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <44EFCE42.30806@arachelian.com> David Griffith wrote: > I did this in high school with a plain cord with a switch on it. The > pickle seemed to have enough resistance to not heat up the wire. It's > also a very good idea to do stuff like this outside otherwise you'll stink > up your house. The most interesting part of this stunt, I thought, was > that only one end of the pickle glowed. > A bit of trivia, the reason you see a lot of HP/Compaq mentioned in these is because the guys that built the Alpha chips worked at DEC, which as bought by Compaq. The Alpha chips were coded with EV - as in Electro Vlassic. :-) http://www.linuxsa.org.au/pipermail/linuxsa/2000-November/022525.html From jwhitton at bellsouth.net Fri Aug 25 18:22:15 2006 From: jwhitton at bellsouth.net (jwhitton) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 19:22:15 -0400 Subject: INS8073 interface? Message-ID: <000301c6c89d$4d631e80$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> On the off chance that this address is still good.., I'm seeking app. notes for the INS8073 Tiny Basic chip. Thanks, John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Aug 26 00:47:42 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:47:42 +1200 Subject: INS8073 interface? In-Reply-To: <000301c6c89d$4d631e80$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> References: <000301c6c89d$4d631e80$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> Message-ID: On 8/26/06, jwhitton wrote: > On the off chance that this address is still good.., I'm seeking app. notes > for the INS8073 Tiny Basic chip. Which app. notes? I have one here... http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/INS8073/ ... which describes a simple 1K SRAM INS8073 arrangement (I've started to redraw it in EagleCAD, but haven't tested the circuit yet, so I haven't published the new drawing). If you find any other INS8073 app notes, please let me know. I have two (so far) INS8073-based systems - an MC-1N (documented on that page), and an RB5X Robot. Fun little chip. Cheers, -ethan From fredbug at neo.rr.com Sat Aug 26 00:13:32 2006 From: fredbug at neo.rr.com (Bruce Birkner) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 01:13:32 -0400 Subject: Megadata available Message-ID: <000301c6c8ce$60853a80$6501a8c0@neo.rr.com> Hi. I missed the posting untill now, is the unit still available? If so let me know, I might beat 'scrap value'. Bruce From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Aug 26 05:14:00 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 03:14:00 -0700 Subject: I think everything's working now... Message-ID: <200608260314000216.94A03A7F@192.168.42.129> Fellow techies (and Tekkies), Thanks to a very generous (and anonymous by request) donation of a replacement firewall/router (a Watchguard Firebox 1000), my domain and FTP archive should all be fully functional once again. Those who have been patiently (or not) to download something from the archive, please give it a try now. ftp.bluefeathertech.com User ID: Either ftp or anonymous Password: Anything you want, though I'd prefer you use your E-mail address. Thanks to all for your patience during this nasty little outage, and special thanks to our anonymous donor (you know who you are). ;-) Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Aug 26 05:32:24 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 11:32:24 +0100 Subject: I think everything's working now... In-Reply-To: <200608260314000216.94A03A7F@192.168.42.129> References: <200608260314000216.94A03A7F@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <44F02338.30702@dsl.pipex.com> Bruce Lane wrote: > ftp.bluefeathertech.com > > User ID: Either ftp or anonymous > Password: Anything you want, though I'd prefer you use your E-mail address. Still looks down from here (IP 81.86.139.157, aka wolf.philpem.me.uk): Z:\>ftp ftp> open ftp.bluefeathertech.com > ftp: connect :Connection timed out -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Sat Aug 26 06:08:32 2006 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 07:08:32 -0400 Subject: I think everything's working now... In-Reply-To: <44F02338.30702@dsl.pipex.com> References: <200608260314000216.94A03A7F@192.168.42.129> <44F02338.30702@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <44F02BB0.2030101@splab.cas.neu.edu> I tried also, windows xp, ftp ftp.bluefeathertech.com, got unknown error back. Philip Pemberton wrote: > Bruce Lane wrote: > >> ftp.bluefeathertech.com >> >> User ID: Either ftp or anonymous >> Password: Anything you want, though I'd prefer you use your E-mail >> address. > > > Still looks down from here (IP 81.86.139.157, aka wolf.philpem.me.uk): > > Z:\>ftp > ftp> open ftp.bluefeathertech.com > > ftp: connect :Connection timed out > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Aug 26 08:44:42 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 06:44:42 -0700 Subject: I think everything's working now... In-Reply-To: <200608260314000216.94A03A7F@192.168.42.129> References: <200608260314000216.94A03A7F@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <200608260644.43111.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Saturday 26 August 2006 03:14, Bruce Lane wrote: > Fellow techies (and Tekkies), > > Thanks to a very generous (and anonymous by request) donation of a > replacement firewall/router (a Watchguard Firebox 1000), my domain and FTP > archive should all be fully functional once again. > > Those who have been patiently (or not) to download something from the > archive, please give it a try now. > > ftp.bluefeathertech.com > > User ID: Either ftp or anonymous > Password: Anything you want, though I'd prefer you use your E-mail > address. ping ftp.bluefeathertech.com PING gutenberg.bluefeathertech.com (216.162.215.96) 56(84) bytes of data. --- gutenberg.bluefeathertech.com ping statistics --- 7 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 5998ms lpb at abit:~> ftp ftp.bluefeathertech.com lpb at abit:~> ftp ftp.bluefeathertech.com Looks like your still down... Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 26 09:42:14 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 10:42:14 -0400 Subject: Megadata available In-Reply-To: <000301c6c8ce$60853a80$6501a8c0@neo.rr.com> References: <000301c6c8ce$60853a80$6501a8c0@neo.rr.com> Message-ID: > I missed the posting untill now, is the unit still available? If so let me > know, I might > beat 'scrap value'. No, sorry, the Megadatas are not available. Someone has claimed it. -- Will From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Aug 26 12:40:40 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:40:40 -0500 Subject: definitive ruling needed on OT Message-ID: <28c167c389e84e0f967f34f17a4aaff9@valleyimplants.com> I've seen it used to seemingly mean both OnTopic and OffTopic. Which is it? What is the abbreviation of the other term? From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Aug 26 12:50:23 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:50:23 -0500 Subject: EV on AXPs Message-ID: <59651790101746c6a393ba321aa62001@valleyimplants.com> Ray wrote: > The Alpha chips were coded with EV - as in >Electro Vlassic. :-) That is one of those things, like VME, where the "real meaning" is kept secret. There are several hypotheses, the other one that makes sense is that it stands for Extended VAX (which, when you trace it out, means Extended Virtual Address Extension [of the PDP-11], so there's still a little bit of PDP in HP/DEC (until October...) AXP however is known to mean nothing. (could be a place shifting of something, e.g. VAX -> (v)AX[p] From gklinger at gmail.com Sat Aug 26 13:20:43 2006 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:20:43 -0400 Subject: definitive ruling needed on OT In-Reply-To: <28c167c389e84e0f967f34f17a4aaff9@valleyimplants.com> References: <28c167c389e84e0f967f34f17a4aaff9@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: OT has, for as long as I can remember, meant 'off topic'. If something isn't marked OT then it is assumed to be on topic. Using OT to mean 'on topic' is just silly. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 26 13:53:25 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 11:53:25 -0700 Subject: Retrospective or, misleading hindsight. Message-ID: <200608261153250453.04D21825@10.0.0.252> I was helping a fellow with a writeup on the CDC STAR-100 (circa 1974) and stumbled across some of the old manuals on bitsavers. You know, back in 1975, the machine was arguably the fastest in the world (I won't get into benchmark results, but it was definitely in competition with Cray). I'd forgotten that the maximum memory available was a megaword (64-bit words) and that standard was half a meg. Back around then, being able to run linpack really fast mattered a lot--and gave rise to oddball ventures like Saxpy (the company, not the subroutine, although the two are not unrelated). Consider that that's 8MB by today's standards, barely enough to host Windows 98. On the other hand, the CPU is still pretty complex by today's standards--and we had 256 64-bit registers to work with. I guess it's like one's childhood home. When you return decades later to visit, you can't get over how SMALL everything seems. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 26 14:19:45 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:19:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: definitive ruling needed on OT In-Reply-To: <28c167c389e84e0f967f34f17a4aaff9@valleyimplants.com> References: <28c167c389e84e0f967f34f17a4aaff9@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <20060826121821.T61796@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 26 Aug 2006, Scott Quinn wrote: > I've seen it used to seemingly mean both OnTopic and OffTopic. > Which is it? What is the abbreviation of the other term? It also means Over Time. and Occupational Therapy and Owner Trained (dogs) From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sat Aug 26 15:25:27 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:25:27 -0500 Subject: definitive ruling needed on OT In-Reply-To: <20060826121821.T61796@shell.lmi.net> References: <28c167c389e84e0f967f34f17a4aaff9@valleyimplants.com> <20060826121821.T61796@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: It has to be Off Topic. There is no reason to use it as On Topic. If you are "On Topic" you have no reason to announce it. It is assumed you are on topic, unless otherwise stated. So, OT has to mean Off Topic. On 8/26/06, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 26 Aug 2006, Scott Quinn wrote: > > I've seen it used to seemingly mean both OnTopic and OffTopic. > > Which is it? What is the abbreviation of the other term? > > It also means Over Time. > and Occupational Therapy > and Owner Trained (dogs) > > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 26 16:57:40 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:57:40 +0000 Subject: Comptometer / adding machine oil? Message-ID: <44F0C3D4.6080108@yahoo.co.uk> Do mechanical adding machines / calculators favour any particular kind of oil (or grease) - or is it just a case of going for the lightest stuff possible? I've got one here (adding machine - Bell Punch 509) that's in remarkably good condition, but some of the mechanism needs a little 'help' for it to work. I don't think it's binding due to any mechanical distortion (although it could well be simple wear) - chances are that whatever lubricant was used has long since given up though and sorting that out may well get it going again. (for the curious, it's one of these: http://home.vicnet.net.au/~wolff/calculators/comptometers/Plus/Plus-1.htm ) cheers Jules -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Aug 26 17:00:54 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:00:54 -0500 Subject: Paper tape and 8th bit? Message-ID: <200608262104.k7QL4LVU017801@hosting.monisys.ca> Hi Guys, I'm attempting to recover some software from paper-tape. Never actually had a PT reader in my "altair days", I fooled around with magnetic tape systems (audio and 9-track), and later went to the NorthStar disk system... Did a bit of paper-tape stuff with the university systems, but I don't recall any real details. Anyway - I'm using an OP-80A which is a very simple manual feed reader - you position a light over the unit and pull the tape through wire guides over an optical sensor and it provides parallel data. This all appears to work OK. The tape I've been testing with is a Processor Technology "BASIC VDM DRIVER" - it contains driver software for the PT VDM-1 video board. My question - Does anyone know what they are using the 8th bit for? - I get nicely readable ASCII BASIC source out of it, except that the 8th bit seems to be somewhat randomly set on certain characters. If I strip the 8th bit I get what appears to be legit BASIC code. I thought it might be parity, however this does not appear to be the case - the codes 0A (00001010) and 0D (00001101) both appear with the 8th bit clear - If the 8th bit were parity, one or the other should have it set. Other characters always have it set, for example 'T' (54) seems to always appears as (D4). I checked the tape and it's not a read-error the 9th bit is punched on certain characters.. Anyone shed some light? Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 26 17:07:26 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:07:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) Message-ID: <200608262207.k7QM7Q07030449@keith.ezwind.net> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 21 Aug 2006, Don wrote: > > I think 8.00 is the *last* that will fit on a 5" > floppy. > > 8.04 requires 3" floppies -- though I haven't > checked to see if > > 3.5" I used 3" drives with a Compaq, but eventual ly > switched to 3.5" > > Huh? 3" floppies too! That means there are 5 different floppy disk sizes that I now know of: 3" 3.5" 5" 8" 12" (used on a special Sony Laservision machine) Are there any more?? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 26 17:18:15 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <200608262207.k7QM7Q07030449@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608262207.k7QM7Q07030449@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20060826151158.G61796@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Huh? 3" floppies too! The 3" was used in Amstrad, the first of the Gavilans, and a few others. External drive units were sold in the USA by Amdek for use with Coco and Apple][ > That means there are 5 different floppy disk sizes that I now know of: > 3" 3.5" 5" 8" 12" (used on a special Sony Laservision machine) > Are there any more?? Oh, yes. Somewhere in the archives are detailed discussions of the battle of sizes for "shirt pocket disks" (3, 3.25, 3.5), and how Dysan bet the company and lost, trying to promote their 3.25" format. (Seequa Chameleon 325, etc.) For a very short time, most MAJOR software titles were available on 3.25". There was also an IBM 3.9", and numerous 2", 2.5", and 2.9" diskettes. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 26 17:19:17 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:19:17 -0700 Subject: Comptometer / adding machine oil? In-Reply-To: <44F0C3D4.6080108@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44F0C3D4.6080108@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200608261519170588.058E9231@10.0.0.252> On 8/26/2006 at 9:57 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >Do mechanical adding machines / calculators favour any particular kind of >oil (or grease) - or is it just a case of going for the lightest stuff >possible? An old standby for this kind of stuff is triple-filtered white kerosene (paraffin oil to in the UK)--available as "Ultra-pure Lamp OIl" at many variety stores. Has moderate penetrating properties and is a light-bodied lubricant. You could also try some watch oil--the difference is that watch oil is sold by the cc and lamp oil, by the liter or half-gallon. FWIW, many brass-playing musicians use lamp oil on valves with very good results. I've heard that adding a few drops per ounce of 5 weight white oil improves the lubricating properites. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 26 17:21:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:21:24 -0700 Subject: Paper tape and 8th bit? In-Reply-To: <200608262104.k7QL4LVU017801@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200608262104.k7QL4LVU017801@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200608261521240632.05908273@10.0.0.252> On 8/26/2006 at 5:00 PM Dave Dunfield wrote: >My question - Does anyone know what they are using the 8th bit >for? - I get nicely readable ASCII BASIC source out of it, except >that the 8th bit seems to be somewhat randomly set on certain >characters. If I strip the 8th bit I get what appears to be legit BASIC >code. If you look at the preceding character, is there any correlation to the 8th bit of the next one? The 8th bit just might be garbage left over and not masked out. Cheers, Chuck From pechter at gmail.com Sat Aug 26 17:23:02 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 18:23:02 -0400 Subject: EV on AXPs In-Reply-To: <59651790101746c6a393ba321aa62001@valleyimplants.com> References: <59651790101746c6a393ba321aa62001@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: The story is AXP was made up after they realized they couldn't trademark Alpha. They needed something to add to the generic word to make it register-able. The Electro Vlassic dates back to a DEC engineering report on the Light Emitting Pickle. (there used to be a pdf of a research report out of DEC's Western Research Lab. EV was probably a nod to the start was not to build a new RISC chip per se -- but to find something to extend the Vax lifespan. Course, it's pretty much common talk that AXP was used in the name because the chip was "Almost eXactly Prism" which was an architecture that was cancelled earlier at DEC... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_PRISM Bill On 8/26/06, Scott Quinn wrote: > > Ray wrote: > > > The Alpha chips were coded with EV - as in > >Electro Vlassic. :-) > > That is one of those things, like VME, where the "real meaning" is > kept secret. There are several hypotheses, the other one that makes sense > is that it stands for Extended VAX (which, when you trace it out, means > Extended Virtual Address Extension [of the PDP-11], so there's still a > little bit of PDP > in HP/DEC (until October...) > AXP however is known to mean nothing. > (could be a place shifting of something, e.g. VAX -> (v)AX[p] > > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 26 18:25:59 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:25:59 +0000 Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <200608262207.k7QM7Q07030449@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608262207.k7QM7Q07030449@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <44F0D887.5040900@yahoo.co.uk> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > That means there are 5 different floppy disk > sizes that I now know of: > > 3" > 3.5" > 5" > 8" Add 2" to that - someone handed us a box of them the other week. I've got a feeling that 2.5" existed, too (and presumably by 5" you mean what's commonly called 5.25"?) > 12" (used on a special Sony Laservision machine) Hmm, Philips certainly had laservision players (got one here), but they're optical laserdisk players, not floppy (as in magnetic media) at all. I'd be surprised if a rival company could use the same name for a totally different technology! I've heard rumours of a 12" IBM format for one of their early mainframes, but I don't know if that's just urban legend or not. cheers Jules -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 26 17:23:53 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:23:53 -0700 Subject: I think everything's working now... In-Reply-To: <200608260314000216.94A03A7F@192.168.42.129> References: <200608260314000216.94A03A7F@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <200608261523530467.0592C7D5@10.0.0.252> On 8/26/2006 at 3:14 AM Bruce Lane wrote: > ftp.bluefeathertech.com I was able to get logged in, but it doesn't appear as if your server supports passive FTP mode--and my firewall won't allow port mode, so I didn't get much past the login. Cheers, Chuck From pechter at gmail.com Sat Aug 26 17:24:50 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 18:24:50 -0400 Subject: Good deals on PC100/133 DIMMs? In-Reply-To: <200608251438420383.004312DC@10.0.0.252> References: <200608251438420383.004312DC@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: Let me know if you ever find any. The 128's are almost throw-away at this point. I still see the 256's used in servers at work. They haven't freed up at a cheap price. Bill On 8/25/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I'm upgrading some systems here and am looking for some good deals on > 256MB > PC100 or PC133 DIMMs. Any suggestions? > > (The systems are just 10 years old, so it's OT) > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > From pechter at gmail.com Sat Aug 26 17:29:39 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 18:29:39 -0400 Subject: EV on AXPs In-Reply-To: References: <59651790101746c6a393ba321aa62001@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: The light emitting pickle... http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/Compaq-DEC/WRL-TN-13.html On 8/26/06, Bill Pechter wrote: > > The story is AXP was made up after they realized they couldn't trademark > Alpha. They needed something to add to the generic word to make it > register-able. > > The Electro Vlassic dates back to a DEC engineering report on the Light > Emitting Pickle. (there used to be a pdf of a research report out of DEC's > Western Research Lab. > > EV was probably a nod to the start was not to build a new RISC chip per se > -- but to find something to extend the Vax lifespan. > > Course, it's pretty much common talk that AXP was used in the name because > the chip was "Almost eXactly Prism" which was an architecture that was > cancelled earlier at DEC... > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_PRISM > > Bill > > > On 8/26/06, Scott Quinn < compoobah at valleyimplants.com> wrote: > > > > Ray wrote: > > > > > The Alpha chips were coded with EV - as in > > >Electro Vlassic. :-) > > > > That is one of those things, like VME, where the "real meaning" is > > kept secret. There are several hypotheses, the other one that makes > > sense > > is that it stands for Extended VAX (which, when you trace it out, means > > Extended Virtual Address Extension [of the PDP-11], so there's still a > > little bit of PDP > > in HP/DEC (until October...) > > AXP however is known to mean nothing. > > (could be a place shifting of something, e.g. VAX -> (v)AX[p] > > > > > > > > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Aug 26 17:31:59 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <44F0D887.5040900@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200608262207.k7QM7Q07030449@keith.ezwind.net> <44F0D887.5040900@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Aug 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > That means there are 5 different floppy disk > > sizes that I now know of: > > > > 3" > > 3.5" > > 5" > > 8" > > Add 2" to that - someone handed us a box of them the other week. I've got a > feeling that 2.5" existed, too (and presumably by 5" you mean what's commonly > called 5.25"?) Are those 2" disks "Video Floppy" disks as used in the Canon Xapshot? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 26 17:48:05 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:48:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) Message-ID: <200608262248.k7QMm5FI031411@keith.ezwind.net> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > That means there are 5 different floppy disk > > sizes that I now know of: > > > > 3" > > 3.5" > > 5" > > 8" > > Add 2" to that - someone handed us a box of them t he > other week. I've got a > feeling that 2.5" existed, too (and presumably by 5" > you mean what's commonly > called 5.25"?) > hmmm, now you have me slightly confused. After sendi ng the message I did remember the 5.25" disks (as us ed on BBC's etc.), but I assumed that 5" and 5.25" w ere different sizes. what's with 2" and 2.5", wouldn't they be too fiddly and/or store too small amount of data to make them worthwhile? > > 12" (used on a special Sony Laservision machine) > > Hmm, Philips certainly had laservision players (go t > one here), but they're > optical laserdisk players, not floppy (as in > magnetic media) at all. I'd be > surprised if a rival company could use the same na me > for a totally different > technology! I've heard rumours of a 12" IBM format > for one of their early > mainframes, but I don't know if that's just urban > legend or not. > No legend... give me a while and I'll find a link to a pic of a 12" disk... Robert Bernardo (Amiga enthusiast) has been pictured with one at a retro event fairly recently. > cheers > > Jules > > Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 26 17:37:01 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: References: <200608262207.k7QM7Q07030449@keith.ezwind.net> <44F0D887.5040900@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20060826153343.E61796@shell.lmi.net> > > Add 2" to that - someone handed us a box of them the other week. I've got a > > feeling that 2.5" existed, too (and presumably by 5" you mean what's commonly > > called 5.25"?) On Sat, 26 Aug 2006, David Griffith wrote: > Are those 2" disks "Video Floppy" disks as used in the Canon Xapshot? There existed more than one of each of 2", 2.5", and 2.9", including SOME that had a single spiral track instead of concentric circles. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 26 18:44:31 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:44:31 +0000 Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: References: <200608262207.k7QM7Q07030449@keith.ezwind.net> <44F0D887.5040900@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44F0DCDF.40808@yahoo.co.uk> David Griffith wrote: >> Add 2" to that - someone handed us a box of them the other week. > > Are those 2" disks "Video Floppy" disks as used in the Canon Xapshot? Nope, data - came with a British Telecom branded laptop, which it turns out appears to just be a rebadged Zenith Minisport (which uses a 2" drive). cheers Jules -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 26 17:42:35 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <200608262248.k7QMm5FI031411@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608262248.k7QMm5FI031411@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20060826153836.O61796@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > hmmm, now you have me slightly confused. After sendi > ng the message I did remember the 5.25" disks (as us > ed on BBC's etc.), but I assumed that 5" and 5.25" w > ere different sizes. doubtful. > what's with 2" and 2.5", wouldn't they be too > fiddly and/or store too small amount of data > to make them worthwhile? Many were "720K" (from 640K to 880K) 80 tracks per side, 2 sides "fiddly"? no more so than car keys, but yes, Bernie Zilbergeld blasted them as being "too hard not to lose". From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 26 17:34:52 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:34:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Comptometer / adding machine oil? In-Reply-To: <44F0C3D4.6080108@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 26, 6 09:57:40 pm Message-ID: > > > Do mechanical adding machines / calculators favour any particular kind of oil > (or grease) - or is it just a case of going for the lightest stuff possible? > > I've got one here (adding machine - Bell Punch 509) that's in remarkably good > condition, but some of the mechanism needs a little 'help' for it to work. I > don't think it's binding due to any mechanical distortion (although it could > well be simple wear) - chances are that whatever lubricant was used has long > since given up though and sorting that out may well get it going again. You're not going to want to hear this, but... Old lubricant does 'turn to glue' and cause things to stick. And adding more lubricant won't really help, you need to clean off the old first. Now I've been flamed for this before, but any _real_ clock repairer will tell you the only way to do this is to take the thing apart and clean the parts in a suitable solvent. And then put it back together with the right lubricants. As regacds what lubricant to use, I use 3 : High melthing point grease (normal car grease, Castrol LM, etc) on very slow moving parts like the carriage slideways and the handle gearing Clock oil (obtained from a watch/clockmaker's supplier) on most parts. Watch oil (a thinner version of that) on small, fast-moving parts. Not so much on calculating machines, actually, but it's what I'd use on the bearings of a camera shutter timer [1]. [1] As to what I'd use on the gear teeth in that mechanism, I wouldn't. They are designed to run dry. Maybe 1 drop of watch oil on the 'scape wheel and pallets. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 26 17:40:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:40:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Paper tape and 8th bit? In-Reply-To: <200608262104.k7QL4LVU017801@hosting.monisys.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Aug 26, 6 05:00:54 pm Message-ID: > > Hi Guys, > > I'm attempting to recover some software from paper-tape. > > Never actually had a PT reader in my "altair days", I fooled around > with magnetic tape systems (audio and 9-track), and later went to > the NorthStar disk system... Did a bit of paper-tape stuff with the > university systems, but I don't recall any real details. > > Anyway - I'm using an OP-80A which is a very simple manual feed > reader - you position a light over the unit and pull the tape through > wire guides over an optical sensor and it provides parallel data. > > This all appears to work OK. > > The tape I've been testing with is a Processor Technology "BASIC > VDM DRIVER" - it contains driver software for the PT VDM-1 video > board. > > My question - Does anyone know what they are using the 8th bit > for? - I get nicely readable ASCII BASIC source out of it, except Well, AFAIK few punches [1] or readers ever did anything with the 8th bit other than just transfer it to/from the system. So what it means depends on the device that punched that tape. [1] I say 'few', not none because the serial adapter board for the 4070 can be set up to make this a locally-generated parity bit. In other words you can send it 7 bit characters (or 8 bit with the top bit ignored) and it will punch them with the 8th level an even parity bit. All link-selectable. > that the 8th bit seems to be somewhat randomly set on certain > characters. If I strip the 8th bit I get what appears to be legit BASIC > code. > > I thought it might be parity, however this does not appear to be That would have been my first guess too. Normally even parity, since then totally blank and all holes are valid characters (the latter can be used to overpunch any other character, and was origianlly simply ignored by the system). Of course on a binary tape (true binary, not Intel-Hex or something), it's just anothe bit. > the case - the codes 0A (00001010) and 0D (00001101) both > appear with the 8th bit clear - If the 8th bit were parity, one or > the other should have it set. Other characters always have it set, > for example 'T' (54) seems to always appears as (D4). Doe any character exist in both forms (with the top bit both clear and set)? If so, could it be something like a 'start of statement' marker or 'start of keyword' or soemthing like that? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 26 17:24:23 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:24:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: EV on AXPs In-Reply-To: <59651790101746c6a393ba321aa62001@valleyimplants.com> from "Scott Quinn" at Aug 26, 6 12:50:23 pm Message-ID: > AXP however is known to mean nothing. > (could be a place shifting of something, e.g. VAX -> (v)AX[p] I story I heard from somebody who worked at DEC at that time was that it stood for 'Almost eXactly Prism', Prism being an internal-only project. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 26 17:48:38 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:48:38 -0600 Subject: Paper tape and 8th bit? In-Reply-To: <200608261521240632.05908273@10.0.0.252> References: <200608262104.k7QL4LVU017801@hosting.monisys.ca> <200608261521240632.05908273@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44F0CFC6.2050109@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > If you look at the preceding character, is there any correlation to the 8th > bit of the next one? The 8th bit just might be garbage left over and not > masked out. It could be binary.The driver is loaded in the top of memory, and seems to patch over a TTY driver. I don't have manual handy but it does have a bootstrap loader @ 80H I think, the first 256 bytes to load in a hex loader. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 26 18:03:13 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 18:03:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) Message-ID: <200608262303.k7QN3DJT031821@keith.ezwind.net> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > That means there are 5 different floppy disk > > sizes that I now know of: > > > > 3" > > 3.5" > > 5" > > 8" > > Add 2" to that - someone handed us a box of them t he > other week. I've got a > feeling that 2.5" existed, too (and presumably by 5" > you mean what's commonly > called 5.25"?) > > > 12" (used on a special Sony Laservision machine) > > Hmm, Philips certainly had laservision players (go t > one here), but they're > optical laserdisk players, not floppy (as in > magnetic media) at all. I'd be > surprised if a rival company could use the same na me > for a totally different > technology! I've heard rumours of a 12" IBM format > for one of their early > mainframes, but I don't know if that's just urban > legend or not. > > cheers > > Jules > Well here's the link to the pic: http://www.dickestel.com/vintage2005.htm It's picture 7, taken at the Vintage Computer Festiv al 2005. I'm not entirely sure that is Robert holdin g the disk, but he may have taken the picture instea d? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 26 18:58:16 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:58:16 +0000 Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <200608262248.k7QMm5FI031411@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608262248.k7QMm5FI031411@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <44F0E018.1060505@yahoo.co.uk> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > (and presumably by 5" you mean what's commonly >> called 5.25"?) >> > > hmmm, now you have me slightly confused. After sending the > message I did remember the 5.25" disks (as used on BBC's etc.), > but I assumed that 5" and 5.25" were different sizes. Well 5.25" was the more common, used on just about everything. Looking at the one currently sitting on the desk, though, I believe that the magnetic disk itself *is* 5" in diameter, although the jacket's 5.25" (or rather just a shade under). 5.25" is the common terminology - but you could probably argue that 5" is equally correct :-) > what's with 2" and 2.5", wouldn't they be too > fiddly and/or store too small amount of data > to make them worthwhile? I'm not sure what their capacity was, but I'd guess at somewhere around 300KB. I suppose at the time that was large enough to be useful given the supposed advantages of the small physical size. But yes, they are fiddly - and more importantly they don't look particularly robust. > No legend... give me a while and I'll find a link > to a pic of a 12" disk... Robert Bernardo > (Amiga enthusiast) has been pictured with one > at a retro event fairly recently. That'd be brilliant! cheers J. -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 26 19:09:11 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 00:09:11 +0000 Subject: Comptometer / adding machine oil? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44F0E2A7.7010609@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Now I've been flamed for this before, but any _real_ clock repairer will > tell you the only way to do this is to take the thing apart and clean the > parts in a suitable solvent. And then put it back together with the right > lubricants. I was wondering that, to be honest. Actually, as this is just an adding machine the mechanism isn't too complex, plus it's decimal and so is symmetrical (apart from some minor differences in the 10th column, which has no associated keys). Nothing wrong with totally stripping something down to restore it - it's what I normally do with things, I just wouldn't fancy doing it with something as complex as a compometer as I'd never get it back together again! Not so bad with a 'simple' adder. > High melthing point grease (normal car grease, Castrol LM, etc) on very > slow moving parts like the carriage slideways and the handle gearing No probs there... > Clock oil (obtained from a watch/clockmaker's supplier) on most parts. Any ideas about sewing machine oil? I've got a supply of that, but I don't think I've got anything thinner on hand until I'm up at the museum next... cheers Jules -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 26 18:15:34 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 00:15:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Comptometer / adding machine oil? In-Reply-To: <44F0E2A7.7010609@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 27, 6 00:09:11 am Message-ID: > > Clock oil (obtained from a watch/clockmaker's supplier) on most parts. > > Any ideas about sewing machine oil? I've got a supply of that, but I don't > think I've got anything thinner on hand until I'm up at the museum next... It's probably OK. But you can get clock oil (in many different thicknesses) from companies like H S Walsh. It's not _that_ expensive either (or wasn't last time I bought some), you only use it a drop at a time so a small bottle lasts a long time. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 26 18:22:12 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:22:12 -0700 Subject: Good deals on PC100/133 DIMMs? In-Reply-To: References: <200608251438420383.004312DC@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608261622120764.05C82CD3@10.0.0.252> Bll, Pat at Purdue has a drawerful 256K/PC100 and made me a very good deal on some. You might drop him a line. Cheers, Chuck On 8/26/2006 at 6:24 PM Bill Pechter wrote: >Let me know if you ever find any. The 128's are almost throw-away at this >point. I still see the 256's used in servers at work. They haven't freed >up at a cheap price. > > >Bill > >On 8/25/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> I'm upgrading some systems here and am looking for some good deals on >> 256MB >> PC100 or PC133 DIMMs. Any suggestions? >> >> (The systems are just 10 years old, so it's OT) >> >> Cheers, >> Chuck >> >> >> From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Aug 26 19:33:49 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:33:49 -0500 Subject: Paper tape and 8th bit? In-Reply-To: <44F0CFC6.2050109@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200608261521240632.05908273@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608262337.k7QNbHXI004269@hosting.monisys.ca> > If you look at the preceding character, is there any correlation to the 8th > bit of the next one? The 8th bit just might be garbage left over and not > masked out. None that I can tell - Also, the 8th bit is punched on the tape with the character - It seems unlikely that PT would have punched a tape in error that way (with garbage left over from the previous character in the 8th bit) - although stranger things HAVE happened... > It could be binary.The driver is loaded in the top of memory, and > seems to patch over a TTY driver. I don't have manual handy > but it does have a bootstrap loader @ 80H I think, the first > 256 bytes to load in a hex loader. I have the manuals as well - this is the BASIC VDM driver, which I don't believe has a loader. Here is a HEX dump of the first 256 bytes retrieved from the tape (after the string of 00s occuring in the leader). 0000 0D 0A 00 00 0D 0A 00 00 30 20 52 45 CD 0D 0A 00 ........0 RE.... 0010 00 32 20 52 45 CD 20 20 3C 3C 3C 20 20 42 41 53 .2 RE. <<< BAS 0020 49 43 20 54 4F 20 56 44 4D 2D 31 20 4C 49 4E 4B IC TO VDM-1 LINK 0030 20 50 52 4F 47 52 41 4D 20 20 3E 3E 3E 0D 0A 00 PROGRAM >>>... 0040 00 34 20 52 45 CD 0D 0A 00 00 36 20 52 45 CD 20 .4 RE.....6 RE. 0050 20 20 20 20 20 20 50 52 4F 43 45 53 53 4F 52 20 PROCESSOR 0060 54 45 43 48 4E 4F 4C 4F 47 59 20 43 4F 52 50 2E TECHNOLOGY CORP. 0070 0D 0A 00 00 38 20 52 45 CD 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 ....8 RE. 0080 36 32 30 30 20 48 4F 4C 4C 49 53 20 53 54 52 45 6200 HOLLIS STRE 0090 45 54 0D 0A 00 00 31 30 20 52 45 CD 20 20 20 20 ET....10 RE. 00A0 20 20 45 4D 45 52 59 56 49 4C 4C 45 2C 20 43 41 EMERYVILLE, CA 00B0 4C 49 46 4F 52 4E 49 41 20 20 20 39 34 36 30 38 LIFORNIA 94608 00C0 0D 0A 00 00 31 32 20 50 52 49 4E D4 0D 0A 00 00 ....12 PRIN..... 00D0 31 34 20 41 24 BD 22 28 48 45 58 29 20 49 53 20 14 A$."(HEX) IS 00E0 59 4F 55 52 20 4C 41 53 54 20 41 44 44 52 45 53 YOUR LAST ADDRES 00F0 53 2C 20 49 4E 50 55 54 3A 22 0D 0A 00 00 31 36 S, INPUT:"....16 I have visually verified that the tape contains the binary values for the first 16 bytes as punched dots - (ie, it starts with 0D 0A 00 00 twice), then 20 20 54 45 CD 0D 0A 00 This is the line '0 REM', however the 'M' has the eight bit set, which makes the code CD instead of 4D. You can see this in the remaining comments which are visible as well. However the 'M' in 'EMERYVILLE' appears with the high bit clear. You can also see that the 'T' in 'PRINT' has the high bit set. This is supposed to be loaded under Altair BASIC somehow (I'll have to dig out the Altair BASIC manuals and if it sheds any light) - I thought that perhaps this in an internal representation, and that AB sets the high bit on the last character of reserved words ... except that 'INPUT' does not have the high bit set on it's last character... I have the machine code driver as well, and I will try reading that and see if the code disassembles into something that makes sense. Ultimately I will read these and other tapes and archive the code as a raw binary dump of the tape content, however I'm trying to understand what is recorded on the tapes so that I can verify my setup. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 26 18:41:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:41:29 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Re: Good deals on PC100/133 DIMMs? References: <200608251438420383.004312DC@10.0.0.252> <200608261622120764.05C82CD3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608261641290509.05D9D350@10.0.0.252> Sorry, that was supposed to be OT. Apologies, Chuck *********** BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE *********** On 8/26/2006 at 4:22 PM Chuck Guzis wrote: >Bll, > >Pat at Purdue has a drawerful 256K/PC100 and made me a very good deal on >some. You might drop him a line. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > >On 8/26/2006 at 6:24 PM Bill Pechter wrote: > >>Let me know if you ever find any. The 128's are almost throw-away at this >>point. I still see the 256's used in servers at work. They haven't freed >>up at a cheap price. >> >> >>Bill >> >>On 8/25/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> >>> I'm upgrading some systems here and am looking for some good deals on >>> 256MB >>> PC100 or PC133 DIMMs. Any suggestions? >>> >>> (The systems are just 10 years old, so it's OT) >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Chuck >>> >>> >>> > > > *********** END FORWARDED MESSAGE *********** From kenzolist at counterfolk.com Sat Aug 26 19:08:42 2006 From: kenzolist at counterfolk.com (Ken) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:08:42 -0400 Subject: Paper tape and 8th bit? In-Reply-To: <200608262337.k7QNbHXI004269@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <44F0CFC6.2050109@jetnet.ab.ca> <200608261521240632.05908273@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <1.27900052070618.435.752412080765@1.00011504628787> At 07:33 PM 8/26/2006 -0500, Dave Dunfield wrote: >0000 0D 0A 00 00 0D 0A 00 00 30 20 52 45 CD 0D 0A 00 ........0 RE.... >0010 00 32 20 52 45 CD 20 20 3C 3C 3C 20 20 42 41 53 .2 RE. <<< BAS >0020 49 43 20 54 4F 20 56 44 4D 2D 31 20 4C 49 4E 4B IC TO VDM-1 LINK >0030 20 50 52 4F 47 52 41 4D 20 20 3E 3E 3E 0D 0A 00 PROGRAM >>>... >0040 00 34 20 52 45 CD 0D 0A 00 00 36 20 52 45 CD 20 .4 RE.....6 RE. >0050 20 20 20 20 20 20 50 52 4F 43 45 53 53 4F 52 20 PROCESSOR >0060 54 45 43 48 4E 4F 4C 4F 47 59 20 43 4F 52 50 2E TECHNOLOGY CORP. >0070 0D 0A 00 00 38 20 52 45 CD 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 ....8 RE. >0080 36 32 30 30 20 48 4F 4C 4C 49 53 20 53 54 52 45 6200 HOLLIS STRE >0090 45 54 0D 0A 00 00 31 30 20 52 45 CD 20 20 20 20 ET....10 RE. >00A0 20 20 45 4D 45 52 59 56 49 4C 4C 45 2C 20 43 41 EMERYVILLE, CA >00B0 4C 49 46 4F 52 4E 49 41 20 20 20 39 34 36 30 38 LIFORNIA 94608 >00C0 0D 0A 00 00 31 32 20 50 52 49 4E D4 0D 0A 00 00 ....12 PRIN..... >00D0 31 34 20 41 24 BD 22 28 48 45 58 29 20 49 53 20 14 A$."(HEX) IS >00E0 59 4F 55 52 20 4C 41 53 54 20 41 44 44 52 45 53 YOUR LAST ADDRES >00F0 53 2C 20 49 4E 50 55 54 3A 22 0D 0A 00 00 31 36 S, INPUT:"....16 > >This is the line '0 REM', however the 'M' has the eight bit set, which makes >the code CD instead of 4D. You can see this in the remaining comments >which are visible as well. However the 'M' in 'EMERYVILLE' appears with >the high bit clear. > >You can also see that the 'T' in 'PRINT' has the high bit set. > >This is supposed to be loaded under Altair BASIC somehow (I'll have to >dig out the Altair BASIC manuals and if it sheds any light) - I thought that >perhaps this in an internal representation, and that AB sets the high bit >on the last character of reserved words ... except that 'INPUT' does not >have the high bit set on it's last character... It seems consistent that 'INPUT' wouldn't have the high bit set there. The pattern seems to be that the high bit is set on the last character of every BASIC keyword. In the context in which 'INPUT' appears in this code fragment, it's part of a quoted string, not a keyword. Also note that the '=' in line 14 (A$="(HEX....) has the high bit set as well (thus appearing as BD instead of 3D). = is also likely being treated as a BASIC keyword in this context. - Ken From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Aug 26 20:23:56 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:23:56 -0500 Subject: Paper tape and 8th bit? In-Reply-To: <1.27900052070618.435.752412080765@1.00011504628787> References: <200608262337.k7QNbHXI004269@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200608270027.k7R0RX4Q010720@hosting.monisys.ca> > >This is supposed to be loaded under Altair BASIC somehow (I'll have to > >dig out the Altair BASIC manuals and if it sheds any light) - I thought that > >perhaps this in an internal representation, and that AB sets the high bit > >on the last character of reserved words ... except that 'INPUT' does not > >have the high bit set on it's last character... > > > It seems consistent that 'INPUT' wouldn't have the high bit set there. The pattern seems to be that > the high bit is set on the last character of every BASIC keyword. In the context in which 'INPUT' > appears in this code fragment, it's part of a quoted string, not a keyword. > > Also note that the '=' in line 14 (A$="(HEX....) has the high bit set as well (thus appearing as BD > instead of 3D). = is also likely being treated as a BASIC keyword in this context. Right you are - to be honest, I just noticed that the high bit was set at the end of REM and PRINT after I included the dump in the message, and then I noticed INPUT, but did not notice that it was in a a quoted string. I'm going to process the remainder of the code and see if this rule stays true, in which case it's something to do with the Altair BASIC and not the format of the paper-tape (which remains a simple 8-bit binary channel). I think you are right about the '=' as well - funny that they would "tokenize" in this manner - I've written several BASICs over the years - some which operated on pure plain text (no tokenization at all), but most replaced all keywords with a single easily recognizable token - I don't see what advantage this type of tokenization could have done as it saves no space, and you still have to parse the whole word. I've got a few versions of the VDM software on paper tape, and I'm supposed to be getting in more soon including the dazzler software, spacewar tapes and more - I'm trying to figure out the best way to make certain that I archive error free reads - I was hoping for some sort of error detection scheme built into the tape layout, however it doesn't look that way - Now I'm thinking to perform multiple reads of each tape, and confirm that I get identical data streams. I don't know if errors during paper-tape read tend to repeat at the same spot on the tape or not... Anyone have a better suggestion? Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Aug 26 19:56:54 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:56:54 -0400 Subject: Paper tape and 8th bit? Message-ID: <01C6C952.483B87C0@MSE_D03> Looks like it marks the last (or only) byte of a BASIC keyword all right; I think the "Input" is part of the text, not a keyword. mike ------------Original messsage: Message: 32 Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:33:49 -0500 From: "Dave Dunfield" Subject: Re: Paper tape and 8th bit? To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <200608262337.k7QNbHXI004269 at hosting.monisys.ca> > If you look at the preceding character, is there any correlation to the 8th > bit of the next one? The 8th bit just might be garbage left over and not > masked out. None that I can tell - Also, the 8th bit is punched on the tape with the character - It seems unlikely that PT would have punched a tape in error that way (with garbage left over from the previous character in the 8th bit) - although stranger things HAVE happened... > It could be binary.The driver is loaded in the top of memory, and > seems to patch over a TTY driver. I don't have manual handy > but it does have a bootstrap loader @ 80H I think, the first > 256 bytes to load in a hex loader. I have the manuals as well - this is the BASIC VDM driver, which I don't believe has a loader. Here is a HEX dump of the first 256 bytes retrieved from the tape (after the string of 00s occuring in the leader). 0000 0D 0A 00 00 0D 0A 00 00 30 20 52 45 CD 0D 0A 00 ........0 RE.... 0010 00 32 20 52 45 CD 20 20 3C 3C 3C 20 20 42 41 53 .2 RE. <<< BAS 0020 49 43 20 54 4F 20 56 44 4D 2D 31 20 4C 49 4E 4B IC TO VDM-1 LINK 0030 20 50 52 4F 47 52 41 4D 20 20 3E 3E 3E 0D 0A 00 PROGRAM >>>... 0040 00 34 20 52 45 CD 0D 0A 00 00 36 20 52 45 CD 20 .4 RE.....6 RE. 0050 20 20 20 20 20 20 50 52 4F 43 45 53 53 4F 52 20 PROCESSOR 0060 54 45 43 48 4E 4F 4C 4F 47 59 20 43 4F 52 50 2E TECHNOLOGY CORP. 0070 0D 0A 00 00 38 20 52 45 CD 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 ....8 RE. 0080 36 32 30 30 20 48 4F 4C 4C 49 53 20 53 54 52 45 6200 HOLLIS STRE 0090 45 54 0D 0A 00 00 31 30 20 52 45 CD 20 20 20 20 ET....10 RE. 00A0 20 20 45 4D 45 52 59 56 49 4C 4C 45 2C 20 43 41 EMERYVILLE, CA 00B0 4C 49 46 4F 52 4E 49 41 20 20 20 39 34 36 30 38 LIFORNIA 94608 00C0 0D 0A 00 00 31 32 20 50 52 49 4E D4 0D 0A 00 00 ....12 PRIN..... 00D0 31 34 20 41 24 BD 22 28 48 45 58 29 20 49 53 20 14 A$."(HEX) IS 00E0 59 4F 55 52 20 4C 41 53 54 20 41 44 44 52 45 53 YOUR LAST ADDRES 00F0 53 2C 20 49 4E 50 55 54 3A 22 0D 0A 00 00 31 36 S, INPUT:"....16 I have visually verified that the tape contains the binary values for the first 16 bytes as punched dots - (ie, it starts with 0D 0A 00 00 twice), then 20 20 54 45 CD 0D 0A 00 This is the line '0 REM', however the 'M' has the eight bit set, which makes the code CD instead of 4D. You can see this in the remaining comments which are visible as well. However the 'M' in 'EMERYVILLE' appears with the high bit clear. You can also see that the 'T' in 'PRINT' has the high bit set. This is supposed to be loaded under Altair BASIC somehow (I'll have to dig out the Altair BASIC manuals and if it sheds any light) - I thought that perhaps this in an internal representation, and that AB sets the high bit on the last character of reserved words ... except that 'INPUT' does not have the high bit set on it's last character... I have the machine code driver as well, and I will try reading that and see if the code disassembles into something that makes sense. Ultimately I will read these and other tapes and archive the code as a raw binary dump of the tape content, however I'm trying to understand what is recorded on the tapes so that I can verify my setup. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 26 19:56:20 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:56:20 -0700 Subject: Good deals on PC100/133 DIMMs? In-Reply-To: References: <200608251438420383.004312DC@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: At 6:24 PM -0400 8/26/06, Bill Pechter wrote: >Let me know if you ever find any. The 128's are almost throw-away at this >point. I still see the 256's used in servers at work. They haven't freed >up at a cheap price. Keep in mind the ones in servers are likely to be Parity, which won't work very well in home computers. Well, unless you have the same idea of home computers as I do (DEC PWS or Compaq XP1000). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rcini at optonline.net Sat Aug 26 20:58:57 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:58:57 -0400 Subject: KEGS Apple IIgs emulator Message-ID: <000c01c6c97c$5bdf5b10$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I was playing around with the KEGS emulator and I wanted to get GS/OS working on an emulated hard disk partition. I can't seem to get the emulator to recognize the 32mb container file which is supposed to be the hard drive. Has anyone tackled this before and can give me a few pointers? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 26 22:49:56 2006 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 22:49:56 -0500 Subject: Data General Nova/Eclipse Software download In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c0608160540s355ba636jb0a64cbb329037c0@mail.gmail.co m> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20060826224446.05264958@cirithi> I have some 9 Track images that might work. They are not distribution tapes, though. (I have some hard sector distribution floppies, but the floppy drive and controller are not hooked up -- a project for another day) These tape images are in AWS format (such as that used by the Hercules mainframe emulator), so someone would need to reformat the files -- but it shouldn't take more than a few hours of "C" coding). I have LOTS more, but need to read those pesky floppies. Jay 2363 MT CC0028 NOVA RDOS "STARTER" 12/30/88 NOVA 3/4, 1 Extra file @ end rdos_starter Memorex 35CWA1 8/7/2000 ? 2364 MT CC0029 NOVA RDOS66 "STARTER TAPE" 12/31/88 NOVA 4/X, Last file BAD rdos_66_star Memorex 27JHA9 8/7/2000 Y 2365 MT CC0030 NOVA RDOS 6.6 NOVA 4/x FDUMP Reel 1 of 2 12/31/88 rdos_66_fdum Memorex 35JWA9 8/7/2000 2366 MT CC0031 NOVA RDOS 6.6 NOVA 4/x FDUMP Reel 2 of 2 12/31/88 rdos_66_fdum Wabash 87623#1511 8/7/2000 At 08:40 AM 8/16/2006 -0400, Madcrow Maxwell wrote: >I've decided to try out the Data General emulation in SIMH and am >looking for software. Is there any place that has software for RDOS >like extra programming languages, games and productivity-type stuff? >If not is anybody willing to share? > >Mike "Madcrow" K. --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1 at charter.net From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Aug 27 00:44:18 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 01:44:18 -0400 Subject: Good deals on PC100/133 DIMMs? References: <200608251438420383.004312DC@10.0.0.252> <200608261622120764.05C82CD3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <008501c6c99b$d71eed80$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 7:22 PM Subject: Re: Good deals on PC100/133 DIMMs? > Bll, > > Pat at Purdue has a drawerful 256K/PC100 and made me a very good deal on > some. You might drop him a line. > > Cheers, > Chuck > I am sure they would be cheap if they were only 256K. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Aug 27 00:47:25 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 01:47:25 -0400 Subject: Good deals on PC100/133 DIMMs? References: <200608251438420383.004312DC@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <008c01c6c99c$4649ca40$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2006 8:56 PM Subject: Re: Good deals on PC100/133 DIMMs? > At 6:24 PM -0400 8/26/06, Bill Pechter wrote: > >Let me know if you ever find any. The 128's are almost throw-away at this > >point. I still see the 256's used in servers at work. They haven't freed > >up at a cheap price. > > Keep in mind the ones in servers are likely to be Parity, which won't > work very well in home computers. Well, unless you have the same > idea of home computers as I do (DEC PWS or Compaq XP1000). > > Zane > -- Don't forget some systems are very picky on chip density so just because it uses PC100 for example it might not be able to use higher density chips. My 6BA Gigabyte motherboard is picky on chip density for PC100 SIMMs. I also found that 512MB PC133 DIMMs don't like being mixed and matched with other brands. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Aug 26 18:56:03 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:56:03 -0400 Subject: Paper tape and 8th bit? Message-ID: <0J4M008T5QCSUPG0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Paper tape and 8th bit? > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:40:58 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> Hi Guys, >> >> I'm attempting to recover some software from paper-tape. >> >> Never actually had a PT reader in my "altair days", I fooled around >> with magnetic tape systems (audio and 9-track), and later went to >> the NorthStar disk system... Did a bit of paper-tape stuff with the >> university systems, but I don't recall any real details. >> >> Anyway - I'm using an OP-80A which is a very simple manual feed >> reader - you position a light over the unit and pull the tape through >> wire guides over an optical sensor and it provides parallel data. >> >> This all appears to work OK. >> >> The tape I've been testing with is a Processor Technology "BASIC >> VDM DRIVER" - it contains driver software for the PT VDM-1 video >> board. >> >> My question - Does anyone know what they are using the 8th bit >> for? - I get nicely readable ASCII BASIC source out of it, except > >Well, AFAIK few punches [1] or readers ever did anything with the 8th bit >other than just transfer it to/from the system. So what it means depends >on the device that punched that tape. > >[1] I say 'few', not none because the serial adapter board for the 4070 >can be set up to make this a locally-generated parity bit. In other words >you can send it 7 bit characters (or 8 bit with the top bit ignored) and >it will punch them with the 8th level an even parity bit. All >link-selectable. The punch and reader "dumb" devices though some did parity local that was more exception than general practice. > >> that the 8th bit seems to be somewhat randomly set on certain >> characters. If I strip the 8th bit I get what appears to be legit BASIC >> code. >> >> I thought it might be parity, however this does not appear to be In PT systems that may have been used as a "page" (VT or FF) marker. I have the VDM-1 and the basic driver is ascii and the resulting program load the binary driver. >That would have been my first guess too. Normally even parity, since then >totally blank and all holes are valid characters (the latter can be used >to overpunch any other character, and was origianlly simply ignored by >the system). > >Of course on a binary tape (true binary, not Intel-Hex or something), >it's just anothe bit. It's an Ascii punch of the PT basic "LIST: command. The 8th hole may well be random trash or a particular character in memory that had the high bit set. >> the case - the codes 0A (00001010) and 0D (00001101) both >> appear with the 8th bit clear - If the 8th bit were parity, one or >> the other should have it set. Other characters always have it set, >> for example 'T' (54) seems to always appears as (D4). > >Doe any character exist in both forms (with the top bit both clear and >set)? If so, could it be something like a 'start of statement' marker or >'start of keyword' or soemthing like that? Easier, what is the punch pattern on the tape that corrosponds to the 8th bit? My tape is deeply burried since I stopped using back in '76. I know the box it's in far enough down the stack to not warrent looking. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Aug 26 19:06:17 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:06:17 -0400 Subject: Paper tape and 8th bit? Message-ID: <0J4M00GF6QTT63L5@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Paper tape and 8th bit? > From: woodelf > Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:48:38 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> >> If you look at the preceding character, is there any correlation to the 8th >> bit of the next one? The 8th bit just might be garbage left over and not >> masked out. > >It could be binary.The driver is loaded in the top of memory, and >seems to patch over a TTY driver. I don't have manual handy >but it does have a bootstrap loader @ 80H I think, the first >256 bytes to load in a hex loader. PT and many of the 8080 micros didn't use the punch/reader (ASR33 usually) in the same way as the PDP-8 and onter Minis. So conventions existed but didn't always get applied the same. It's not a bin tape, the manual has the source listing. Its a program "LIST" of a PT 5k basic program that loads a long list of DATA nnn,nnn into memory at an address and also pokes the output code of the program to point to VDM1 or Nominal IO depending of sense switch 8 (IN FF; ANI 80; JZ xxxx). Works on IMSAI or Altair front pannal systems,useless for NS* (no sense sw at FFh). I still have and use a VDM-1 in a Netronics Explorer 8085. I havent used PT software since '76ish as I wrote a more compact minimal VT52 screen emulation for it. Allison From jeff.boyd at sympatico.ca Sat Aug 26 19:15:53 2006 From: jeff.boyd at sympatico.ca (Jeff Boyd) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 20:15:53 -0400 Subject: OFFER: Tektronix 4107 colour graphics terminal (Ottawa) Message-ID: <44F0E439.107FB5A4@sympatico.ca> Hi, This a belated cross-post from Ottawa Freecycle. I have a Tektronix 4107 colour graphics terminal, complete with manual and keyboard. Free to good home, but you have to come and get it. Jeff From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Aug 27 01:53:11 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:53:11 -0700 Subject: I think everything's working now... In-Reply-To: <200608261523530467.0592C7D5@10.0.0.252> References: <200608260314000216.94A03A7F@192.168.42.129> <200608261523530467.0592C7D5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608262353110944.990EC52F@192.168.42.129> Try again, Chuck. I've converted (and secured) the server so that it no longer needs to be behind the firewall. Thanks much. *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 26-Aug-06 at 15:23 Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 8/26/2006 at 3:14 AM Bruce Lane wrote: > >> ftp.bluefeathertech.com > >I was able to get logged in, but it doesn't appear as if your server >supports passive FTP mode--and my firewall won't allow port mode, so I >didn't get much past the login. > >Cheers, >Chuck -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From bqt at softjar.se Sun Aug 27 02:38:43 2006 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 09:38:43 +0200 Subject: Paper tape and 8th bit? In-Reply-To: <200608262347.k7QNkVXP084416@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608262347.k7QNkVXP084416@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <44F14C03.7000504@softjar.se> "Dave Dunfield" wrote: >>> If you look at the preceding character, is there any correlation to the 8th >>> bit of the next one? The 8th bit just might be garbage left over and not >>> masked out. > > >None that I can tell - Also, the 8th bit is punched on the tape with the >character - It seems unlikely that PT would have punched a tape in error >that way (with garbage left over from the previous character in the >8th bit) - although stranger things HAVE happened... > > > >>> It could be binary.The driver is loaded in the top of memory, and >>> seems to patch over a TTY driver. I don't have manual handy >>> but it does have a bootstrap loader @ 80H I think, the first >>> 256 bytes to load in a hex loader. > > >I have the manuals as well - this is the BASIC VDM driver, which I >don't believe has a loader. > >Here is a HEX dump of the first 256 bytes retrieved from the tape >(after the string of 00s occuring in the leader). > >0000 0D 0A 00 00 0D 0A 00 00 30 20 52 45 CD 0D 0A 00 ........0 RE.... >0010 00 32 20 52 45 CD 20 20 3C 3C 3C 20 20 42 41 53 .2 RE. <<< BAS >0020 49 43 20 54 4F 20 56 44 4D 2D 31 20 4C 49 4E 4B IC TO VDM-1 LINK >0030 20 50 52 4F 47 52 41 4D 20 20 3E 3E 3E 0D 0A 00 PROGRAM >>>... >0040 00 34 20 52 45 CD 0D 0A 00 00 36 20 52 45 CD 20 .4 RE.....6 RE. >0050 20 20 20 20 20 20 50 52 4F 43 45 53 53 4F 52 20 PROCESSOR >0060 54 45 43 48 4E 4F 4C 4F 47 59 20 43 4F 52 50 2E TECHNOLOGY CORP. >0070 0D 0A 00 00 38 20 52 45 CD 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 ....8 RE. >0080 36 32 30 30 20 48 4F 4C 4C 49 53 20 53 54 52 45 6200 HOLLIS STRE >0090 45 54 0D 0A 00 00 31 30 20 52 45 CD 20 20 20 20 ET....10 RE. >00A0 20 20 45 4D 45 52 59 56 49 4C 4C 45 2C 20 43 41 EMERYVILLE, CA >00B0 4C 49 46 4F 52 4E 49 41 20 20 20 39 34 36 30 38 LIFORNIA 94608 >00C0 0D 0A 00 00 31 32 20 50 52 49 4E D4 0D 0A 00 00 ....12 PRIN..... >00D0 31 34 20 41 24 BD 22 28 48 45 58 29 20 49 53 20 14 A$."(HEX) IS >00E0 59 4F 55 52 20 4C 41 53 54 20 41 44 44 52 45 53 YOUR LAST ADDRES >00F0 53 2C 20 49 4E 50 55 54 3A 22 0D 0A 00 00 31 36 S, INPUT:"....16 > >I have visually verified that the tape contains the binary values for the first >16 bytes as punched dots - (ie, it starts with 0D 0A 00 00 twice), then >20 20 54 45 CD 0D 0A 00 > >This is the line '0 REM', however the 'M' has the eight bit set, which makes >the code CD instead of 4D. You can see this in the remaining comments >which are visible as well. However the 'M' in 'EMERYVILLE' appears with >the high bit clear. > >You can also see that the 'T' in 'PRINT' has the high bit set. > >This is supposed to be loaded under Altair BASIC somehow (I'll have to >dig out the Altair BASIC manuals and if it sheds any light) - I thought that >perhaps this in an internal representation, and that AB sets the high bit >on the last character of reserved words ... except that 'INPUT' does not >have the high bit set on it's last character... > >I have the machine code driver as well, and I will try reading that and >see if the code disassembles into something that makes sense. > >Ultimately I will read these and other tapes and archive the code as a >raw binary dump of the tape content, however I'm trying to understand >what is recorded on the tapes so that I can verify my setup. Ho ho ho... Well, it looks pretty clear that the high bit is set at the final character of BASIC keywords. Token marker, so to speak. You've just made a big miss. The "INPUT" you're speaking of is a string constant... Look again. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Aug 27 03:31:59 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 09:31:59 +0100 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44F1587F.3020605@gjcp.net> Adrian Graham wrote: > All machines were mail order weren't they? Yes there were adverts in a lot Unless you lived in or near Dundee. An awful lot of ZX81s and ZX Spectrums (don't know about ZX80s) hit the market by "man-down-the-pub order". Gordon. From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sun Aug 27 04:14:21 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:14:21 +0100 Subject: Comptometer / adding machine oil? References: Message-ID: <001f01c6c9b9$3069a340$0200a8c0@p2deskto> From: "Tony Duell" > > > Clock oil (obtained from a watch/clockmaker's supplier) on most parts. > > > > Any ideas about sewing machine oil? I've got a supply of that, but I don't > > think I've got anything thinner on hand until I'm up at the museum next... > > It's probably OK. But you can get clock oil (in many different > thicknesses) from companies like H S Walsh. It's not _that_ expensive > either (or wasn't last time I bought some), you only use it a drop at a > time so a small bottle lasts a long time. > > -tony The other advantage of clock oil is its long life - it is designed not to go "tacky" for at least 20 years! (it is also designed to stay in pivots - it has a high surface tension). You do need to strip the mechanism and remove the old lubricant - if you just wash the mechanism, all you do is drive dirt into the pivots, and accelerate wear. This is the ideal project to use your digital camera on, lots of pictures help reassembly! I use clock oil a lot in vintage electronics, for switch spindle (NOT contact) lubrication, and for lubricating the dial cord pulleys in old radios. As Tony says, HMP grease is also useful for sliding parts. As regards small gears, anything running against a fibre gear normally runs dry, as do gears of dissimilar metals (e.g., steel and brass in clocks, though these will often benefit from one or two drops of oil), gears of the same metal do need lubrication. Jim. From jclang at notms.net Sun Aug 27 06:39:06 2006 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 07:39:06 -0400 Subject: Paper tape and 8th bit? In-Reply-To: <200608262337.k7QNbHXI004269@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200608261521240632.05908273@10.0.0.252> <200608262337.k7QNbHXI004269@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <06082707390600.01217@bell> On Saturday 26 August 2006 20:33, you wrote: > > If you look at the preceding character, is there any correlation to the > > 8th bit of the next one? The 8th bit just might be garbage left over and > > not masked out. > > None that I can tell - Also, the 8th bit is punched on the tape with the > character - It seems unlikely that PT would have punched a tape in error > that way (with garbage left over from the previous character in the > 8th bit) - although stranger things HAVE happened... > > > It could be binary.The driver is loaded in the top of memory, and > > seems to patch over a TTY driver. I don't have manual handy > > but it does have a bootstrap loader @ 80H I think, the first > > 256 bytes to load in a hex loader. > > I have the manuals as well - this is the BASIC VDM driver, which I > don't believe has a loader. > > Here is a HEX dump of the first 256 bytes retrieved from the tape > (after the string of 00s occuring in the leader). > > 0000 0D 0A 00 00 0D 0A 00 00 30 20 52 45 CD 0D 0A 00 ........0 RE.... > 0010 00 32 20 52 45 CD 20 20 3C 3C 3C 20 20 42 41 53 .2 RE. <<< BAS > 0020 49 43 20 54 4F 20 56 44 4D 2D 31 20 4C 49 4E 4B IC TO VDM-1 LINK > 0030 20 50 52 4F 47 52 41 4D 20 20 3E 3E 3E 0D 0A 00 PROGRAM >>>... > 0040 00 34 20 52 45 CD 0D 0A 00 00 36 20 52 45 CD 20 .4 RE.....6 RE. > 0050 20 20 20 20 20 20 50 52 4F 43 45 53 53 4F 52 20 PROCESSOR > 0060 54 45 43 48 4E 4F 4C 4F 47 59 20 43 4F 52 50 2E TECHNOLOGY CORP. > 0070 0D 0A 00 00 38 20 52 45 CD 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 ....8 RE. > 0080 36 32 30 30 20 48 4F 4C 4C 49 53 20 53 54 52 45 6200 HOLLIS STRE > 0090 45 54 0D 0A 00 00 31 30 20 52 45 CD 20 20 20 20 ET....10 RE. > 00A0 20 20 45 4D 45 52 59 56 49 4C 4C 45 2C 20 43 41 EMERYVILLE, CA > 00B0 4C 49 46 4F 52 4E 49 41 20 20 20 39 34 36 30 38 LIFORNIA 94608 > 00C0 0D 0A 00 00 31 32 20 50 52 49 4E D4 0D 0A 00 00 ....12 PRIN..... > 00D0 31 34 20 41 24 BD 22 28 48 45 58 29 20 49 53 20 14 A$."(HEX) IS > 00E0 59 4F 55 52 20 4C 41 53 54 20 41 44 44 52 45 53 YOUR LAST ADDRES > 00F0 53 2C 20 49 4E 50 55 54 3A 22 0D 0A 00 00 31 36 S, INPUT:"....16 > > I have visually verified that the tape contains the binary values for the > first 16 bytes as punched dots - (ie, it starts with 0D 0A 00 00 twice), > then 20 20 54 45 CD 0D 0A 00 > > This is the line '0 REM', however the 'M' has the eight bit set, which > makes the code CD instead of 4D. You can see this in the remaining comments > which are visible as well. However the 'M' in 'EMERYVILLE' appears with the > high bit clear. > > You can also see that the 'T' in 'PRINT' has the high bit set. > > This is supposed to be loaded under Altair BASIC somehow (I'll have to > dig out the Altair BASIC manuals and if it sheds any light) - I thought > that perhaps this in an internal representation, and that AB sets the high > bit on the last character of reserved words ... except that 'INPUT' does > not have the high bit set on it's last character... > > I have the machine code driver as well, and I will try reading that and > see if the code disassembles into something that makes sense. > > Ultimately I will read these and other tapes and archive the code as a > raw binary dump of the tape content, however I'm trying to understand > what is recorded on the tapes so that I can verify my setup. > > Regards, > Dave > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html It's an example of an early microsoft bug ;-) In ALTAIR basic (and most of the MS basics) LIST converts the tokenized line back to ascii,using the token as an index into the keyword table. The keywords are stored with the MSB of the last character set. When they list the keyword, they fail to strip off the 8th bit. The end of every keyword lists with the MSB set. joe From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Aug 27 10:29:59 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:29:59 -0500 Subject: Paper tape and 8th bit? In-Reply-To: <06082707390600.01217@bell> References: <200608262337.k7QNbHXI004269@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200608271433.k7REXRHB000990@hosting.monisys.ca> > It's an example of an early microsoft bug ;-) > > In ALTAIR basic (and most of the MS basics) LIST converts the tokenized > line back to ascii,using the token as an index into the keyword table. The > keywords are stored with the MSB of the last character set. When they list > the keyword, they fail to strip off the 8th bit. The end of every keyword > lists with the MSB set. Ah... - thanks. This makes perfect sense. The tape does not contain an input stream such as you would "type in" via an ASR-33, nor does it contain an internal representation of the BASIC program that you could load directly into memory - what it contains is a listing of the program as produced by the LIST command. That explains the high bit on the end of tokenized words, and also explains the null characters following newlines - these are TTY pads. Thinking about it, this makes further sense, as a likely way that these tapes were created is to LIST the program to an ASR-33 punch. I've gotten the OP-80A to work quite reliably - I have it mounted in a little bracket that hangs it off the edge of my desk so that I can unfold/refold the paper-tape in piles on the floor as I draw it through. The OP-80A instructions tell you to use a 40w or 60w bulb as the light source and to lower it until you get the right light level to read the holes in the tape. I'm using a "luxo lamp", and find that even a 40w bulb is too bright - I can't move the lamp high enough to keep it from seeing through the tape, so I am using a variac which gives me very good control over the intensity. With this setup I can adjust it to read very reliably and consistantly. I've written utilities to read tapes into binary files via the OP-80A connected to the parallel port, as well as to compare two files (ignoring the leader/trailer lenghts) and report on the exact differences (bytes missing) between them - I almost always get identical reads, and the data I am getting looks right. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 27 10:51:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 08:51:58 -0700 Subject: I think everything's working now... In-Reply-To: <200608262353110944.990EC52F@192.168.42.129> References: <200608260314000216.94A03A7F@192.168.42.129> <200608261523530467.0592C7D5@10.0.0.252> <200608262353110944.990EC52F@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <200608270851580149.09525154@10.0.0.252> Tried it this morning and it seems to work just fine. Cheers, Chuck On 8/26/2006 at 11:53 PM Bruce Lane wrote: >Try again, Chuck. I've converted (and secured) the server so that it no >longer needs to be behind the firewall. > > Thanks much. > >*********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** > >On 26-Aug-06 at 15:23 Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>On 8/26/2006 at 3:14 AM Bruce Lane wrote: >> >>> ftp.bluefeathertech.com >> >>I was able to get logged in, but it doesn't appear as if your server >>supports passive FTP mode--and my firewall won't allow port mode, so I >>didn't get much past the login. >> >>Cheers, >>Chuck > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, >Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com >kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m >"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Aug 27 11:44:53 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 09:44:53 -0700 Subject: I think everything's working now... In-Reply-To: <200608270851580149.09525154@10.0.0.252> References: <200608260314000216.94A03A7F@192.168.42.129> <200608261523530467.0592C7D5@10.0.0.252> <200608262353110944.990EC52F@192.168.42.129> <200608270851580149.09525154@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608270944530306.9B2C7D7B@192.168.42.129> Thanks. I ended up taking advantage of the dual-port nature of the network card. I locked down one side tighter than Fort Knox, except for anonymous-only FTP access, and fed it unprotected to the Internet. The other port is still behind our firewall, and only connects to our internal LAN. This allows me to update the server in the background (and back it up), while FTP traffic bypasses the firewall altogether. Keep the peace(es). *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 27-Aug-06 at 08:51 Chuck Guzis wrote: >Tried it this morning and it seems to work just fine. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > >On 8/26/2006 at 11:53 PM Bruce Lane wrote: > >>Try again, Chuck. I've converted (and secured) the server so that it no >>longer needs to be behind the firewall. >> >> Thanks much. >> >>*********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** >> >>On 26-Aug-06 at 15:23 Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>>On 8/26/2006 at 3:14 AM Bruce Lane wrote: >>> >>>> ftp.bluefeathertech.com >>> >>>I was able to get logged in, but it doesn't appear as if your server >>>supports passive FTP mode--and my firewall won't allow port mode, so I >>>didn't get much past the login. >>> >>>Cheers, >>>Chuck >> >> >>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >>Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, >>Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com >>kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m >>"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with >surreal ports?" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 27 12:51:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:51:16 -0700 Subject: I think everything's working now... In-Reply-To: <200608270944530306.9B2C7D7B@192.168.42.129> References: <200608260314000216.94A03A7F@192.168.42.129> <200608261523530467.0592C7D5@10.0.0.252> <200608262353110944.990EC52F@192.168.42.129> <200608270851580149.09525154@10.0.0.252> <200608270944530306.9B2C7D7B@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <200608271051160827.09BF92C4@10.0.0.252> IIRC, that file CORE303.EXE in the UTellMe directory is an old DOS disk performance test from Core International, long since absorbed by Aiwa. Core made disk controllers, and disk drives, and later tape drives. The CORETEST program was a means of contrasting the performance between your current rig and (ostensibly) one of Core's setups. I'm not entirely sure that Core actually made all of their disk drives or if some or all were rebadged. But, at one time, CORETEST numbers were widely quoted as a measurement of performance. At any rate, be careful. At one time, CORE303 was widely distributed publicly and many copies are infected with a boot-sector virus. Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Aug 27 14:14:51 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:14:51 -0500 Subject: SGI stuff (maybe) available Message-ID: I am in multiparty talks with a gentleman in the Seattle area who has a number of SGI machines in a storage area that he is interested in getting rid of. These include several Indigos, Indigo2s, Personal IRISes, and Crimsons (AFAIK, I am not the person in direct contact). The word is he's ready to deal on them. If anyone in the Seattle area is interested, I'm going to be going over with someone (who initiated this), probably next weekend, with a pickup to get some stuff. If something strikes your fancy, send me a offlist-message with what you want and your offer, and I can try to get it stuffed in (might not be able to get more Crimsons, we're taking 3 and an Onyx already - so those will be "space-available"). From jvdg at sparcpark.net Sun Aug 27 14:43:25 2006 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 21:43:25 +0200 Subject: Comptometer / adding machine oil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8/27/06 12:34 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > Clock oil (obtained from a watch/clockmaker's supplier) on most parts. > > Watch oil (a thinner version of that) on small, fast-moving parts. Not so > much on calculating machines, actually, but it's what I'd use on the > bearings of a camera shutter timer [1]. Also known as "sewing machine oil", and available from sewing machine peddlers. ,xtG .tsooJ -- Some people are like "Slinkies". Not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs. -- Joost van de Griek From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 27 17:02:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:02:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Paper tape and 8th bit? In-Reply-To: <200608271433.k7REXRHB000990@hosting.monisys.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Aug 27, 6 10:29:59 am Message-ID: > I've gotten the OP-80A to work quite reliably - I have it mounted in a little Is this the hand-pulled reader that uses selected 555 chips as the schmitt triggers? > bracket that hangs it off the edge of my desk so that I can unfold/refold > the paper-tape in piles on the floor as I draw it through. > > The OP-80A instructions tell you to use a 40w or 60w bulb as the light > source and to lower it until you get the right light level to read the holes > in the tape. > > I'm using a "luxo lamp", and find that even a 40w bulb is too bright - I can't > move the lamp high enough to keep it from seeing through the tape, so I > am using a variac which gives me very good control over the intensity. > With this setup I can adjust it to read very reliably and consistantly. I've always liked the system used by the Trend paper tape readers (HSR500, UDR350 and UDR700). They us a built-in lamp for illumination, either a 12V or 24 V vehicle bulb that's easy to obtain. Anyway, the interesting bit is the way it determines the thresholds. There are 2 sensors on the sprocket track, .25" (that's 2.5 characters) apart. When the one in-line with the data holes is brighter than the other one, then that means there's a character over the read head. And the threshold for the data channels is a weighted mean of the 2 levels from the sensors on the sprocket track. OK, there are some adjustments on the circuit board, but they're very non-critical, and once set, it'll read just abotu any tape without tweaking. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 27 16:45:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 22:45:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Comptometer / adding machine oil? In-Reply-To: <001f01c6c9b9$3069a340$0200a8c0@p2deskto> from "Jim Beacon" at Aug 27, 6 10:14:21 am Message-ID: > > The other advantage of clock oil is its long life - it is designed not to go Indeed. That's one reason I use it. > "tacky" for at least 20 years! (it is also designed to stay in pivots - it > has a high surface tension). There is claimed to be a substance you can put on mechanism plates, etc, to stop the oil spreading. Some camera manufactures specified it (Nikon?). >From what I recall, it was very expensive. > You do need to strip the mechanism and remove the old lubricant - if you > just wash the mechanism, all you do is drive dirt into the pivots, and I am sure I was flamed either here or on a camera repair forum for making much the same point. I regard fluching a mechanism with solvent as being a real bodger's trick, likely to do more harm than good. > accelerate wear. This is the ideal project to use your digital camera on, > lots of pictures help reassembly! Assuming you have a digital camera. Fortunately (as I don't), I've never had a problem putting something back together if I've taken it apart. > > I use clock oil a lot in vintage electronics, for switch spindle (NOT > contact) lubrication, and for lubricating the dial cord pulleys in old > radios. As Tony says, HMP grease is also useful for sliding parts. I'd use grease on the detent mechamism of a switch, too. Watch out for graphite grease. It's mildly conductive (of course) and can cause major problems if it gets onto insulators, etc. I don't normally use that on anything electrical unless the manufacturer specifies it. There is a reasonable 'special plastic grease' available, I think from Farnell (it's actually an Electrolube product). Unlike some other greases, it doesn't attack most common thermoplastics, and is good, therefore, on plastic mechanisms. > As regards small gears, anything running against a fibre gear normally runs > dry, as do gears of dissimilar metals (e.g., steel and brass in clocks, > though these will often benefit from one or two drops of oil), gears of the Most, if not all, clock repairs would disagree with you there. Oil on clock gears tends to attract dust and accellerates wear. And oil on some parts of the escapement will cause the parts to momentarily stick and will cause all sorts of timekeeping errors. Gettign abck to classic computers, though, I don't think a drop of oil on any of the gears in, say, an adding machine will do any real harm. And obviously if a mechnaism was designed to run in an oil bath (e.g. some Tally punches) you need to keep that oil at the right level. > same metal do need lubrication. Maybe. The gears should be designed to have essentially rolling contact, and therefore almsot no rubbing or friction between the teeth. And thus no wear. That's not to say you can run you car's gearbox without oil [1], but smaller mechanisms, trasmititng minimal power, shouldn't need much. [1] Not least because it's likely to use helically-cut gears which do have sliding contact between the teeth. -tony From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Aug 27 18:10:15 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 16:10:15 -0700 Subject: I think everything's working now... In-Reply-To: <200608271051160827.09BF92C4@10.0.0.252> References: <200608260314000216.94A03A7F@192.168.42.129> <200608261523530467.0592C7D5@10.0.0.252> <200608262353110944.990EC52F@192.168.42.129> <200608270851580149.09525154@10.0.0.252> <200608270944530306.9B2C7D7B@192.168.42.129> <200608271051160827.09BF92C4@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608271610150373.9C8D4FEE@192.168.42.129> Hi, Chuck, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 27-Aug-06 at 10:51 Chuck Guzis wrote: >IIRC, that file CORE303.EXE in the UTellMe directory is an old DOS disk >performance test from Core International, long since absorbed by Aiwa. >Core made disk controllers, and disk drives, and later tape drives. The So that's what that is! I've had it around for over a decade, could never remember why I kept it, where I came across it, etc. >At any rate, be careful. At one time, CORE303 was widely distributed >publicly and many copies are infected with a boot-sector virus. This particular copy appears to be clean. I've scanned it with the latest issue of AVG Antivirus. My question: Should I even bother keeping it around? Is it of any real value, historical or otherwise? If so, I'll create a subcategory for it, or stick it in an existing one. If not, PURGE! ;-) Let me know, please. Thanks! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 27 19:29:17 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 17:29:17 -0700 Subject: CORETEST was: I think everything's working In-Reply-To: <200608271610150373.9C8D4FEE@192.168.42.129> References: <200608260314000216.94A03A7F@192.168.42.129> <200608261523530467.0592C7D5@10.0.0.252> <200608262353110944.990EC52F@192.168.42.129> <200608270851580149.09525154@10.0.0.252> <200608270944530306.9B2C7D7B@192.168.42.129> <200608271051160827.09BF92C4@10.0.0.252> <200608271610150373.9C8D4FEE@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <200608271729170045.0B2BF2AD@10.0.0.252> On 8/27/2006 at 4:10 PM Bruce Lane wrote: > My question: Should I even bother keeping it around? Is it of any real >value, historical or otherwise? > > If so, I'll create a subcategory for it, or stick it in an existing one. >If not, PURGE! ;-) > > Let me know, please. Thanks! Your call, I'd say.This edition of CORETEST was current through about 1994, so if you want a simple DOS disk performance test that will run even on an XT, keep it! It'll still work with most modern drives that afford INT 13 BIOS access--although it might not be able to assign a "performance number" rating. I think most folks quote Diskmark ratings now. Since Aiwa consumed Core in 1994, I think that your version is the last of the line. Cheers, Chuck From bob099 at centurytel.net Sun Aug 27 21:13:57 2006 From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Choctaw Bob) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 21:13:57 -0500 Subject: Recommendations for operating system Message-ID: <44F25165.9010302@centurytel.net> I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic. I am looking for suggestions for an operating system for a PC, specs 75 MHZ Pentium, 16 MB Ram, 4 GB HD, currently running PC-DOS Ver 7. Original IBM PC-DOS right out of the factory sealed box. I am thinking about putting GEM on the machine, maybe CP/M-86. Thought about GEOS, but rejected it, too closed. Specs seem too tight for Linux or BSD, or at least little advantage over DOS or CP/M. Anyone have experience with an operating system that might work, and be capable of useful work? From brain at jbrain.com Sun Aug 27 21:25:21 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 21:25:21 -0500 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <44F25165.9010302@centurytel.net> References: <44F25165.9010302@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <44F25411.209@jbrain.com> Choctaw Bob wrote: > I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic. > > I am looking for suggestions for an operating system for a PC, specs > 75 MHZ Pentium, 16 MB Ram, 4 GB HD, currently running PC-DOS Ver 7. > Original IBM PC-DOS right out of the factory sealed box. I am > thinking about putting GEM on the machine, maybe CP/M-86. Thought > about GEOS, but rejected it, too closed. Specs seem too tight for > Linux or BSD, or at least little advantage over DOS or CP/M. > > Anyone have experience with an operating system that might work, and > be capable of useful work? Dunno, Slackware Linux runs great on a machine like that, would make a nice print server, file server, or web server. I used a 75MHz Overdrive 20M ram for a few years as a file server, and I could stream movies or mp3 off it. Jim From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Aug 27 21:23:36 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 22:23:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <44F25165.9010302@centurytel.net> References: <44F25165.9010302@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <200608280228.WAA09626@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I am looking for suggestions for an operating system for a PC, specs > 75 MHZ Pentium, 16 MB Ram, 4 GB HD, currently running PC-DOS Ver 7. > Specs seem too tight for Linux or BSD, or at least little advantage > over DOS or CP/M. Well, I don't consider things like real protected-mode multitasking and a modern networking stack to be "little advantage", but that may just reflect the sorts of things I tend to do. > Anyone have experience with an operating system that might work, and > be capable of useful work? Depends on your idea of "useful work". Until recently my laptop was almost exactly that sort of machine (first-gen Pentium, 16M, a few gig disk), and I did plenty of stuff I considered useful on it. (I've since got a 32M memory card to replace the 8M that was in there, so it's now at 40M - at 16M I couldn't turn on the live backup stuff or it would start to page if I so much as typed return to the shell.) Of course, I also wasn't using Gnome and Netscane and suchlike. (My OS was (is) a relatively old rev of NetBSD.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 27 21:54:27 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 22:54:27 -0400 Subject: Good deals on PC100/133 DIMMs? In-Reply-To: References: <200608251438420383.004312DC@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608272254.27943.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 26 August 2006 06:24 pm, Bill Pechter wrote: > Let me know if you ever find any. The 128's are almost throw-away at this > point. I still see the 256's used in servers at work. They haven't freed > up at a cheap price. > > > Bill I could use some - or 128s for that matter, particularly if somebody _is_ throwing them away. This box I'm typing through now was being thrown away, and it's faster than anything else I'm running here! Only thing is that it has only the one 256 stick in it, and it'd probalby be happier with more in there. > On 8/25/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I'm upgrading some systems here and am looking for some good deals on > > 256MB > > PC100 or PC133 DIMMs. Any suggestions? > > > > (The systems are just 10 years old, so it's OT) > > > > Cheers, > > Chuck -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 27 21:58:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 19:58:58 -0700 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <44F25165.9010302@centurytel.net> References: <44F25165.9010302@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <200608271958580347.0BB4FC2D@10.0.0.252> On 8/27/2006 at 9:13 PM Choctaw Bob wrote: >Anyone have experience with an operating system that might work, and be >capable of useful work? Windows 98 will work just fine on a system like that There's also QNX, OS/2 and various flavors of Linux, Xenix and other *nix. Heck, there's MS-DOS with a DPMI server if you want to be very lean. Somewhere I've got a copy of PC-MOS. There's also DR-DOS/GEM. Depends on what you'd like to do. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 27 22:01:56 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:01:56 -0400 Subject: Paper tape and 8th bit? In-Reply-To: <200608270027.k7R0RX4Q010720@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200608262337.k7QNbHXI004269@hosting.monisys.ca> <200608270027.k7R0RX4Q010720@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200608272301.56246.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 26 August 2006 09:23 pm, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I think you are right about the '=' as well - funny that they would > "tokenize" in this manner - I've written several BASICs over the years - > some which operated on pure plain text (no tokenization at all), but most > replaced all keywords with a single easily recognizable token - I don't see > what advantage this type of tokenization could have done as it saves no > space, and you still have to parse the whole word. Is there any chance that there are more than one keyword that share the same first few characters? This reminds me of wordstar "document" format, too... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 27 22:05:06 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:05:06 -0400 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200608271958580347.0BB4FC2D@10.0.0.252> References: <44F25165.9010302@centurytel.net> <200608271958580347.0BB4FC2D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44F25D62.9070500@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/27/2006 at 9:13 PM Choctaw Bob wrote: > >> Anyone have experience with an operating system that might work, and be >> capable of useful work? > > Windows 98 will work just fine on a system like that There's also QNX, > OS/2 and various flavors of Linux, Xenix and other *nix. Heck, there's > MS-DOS with a DPMI server if you want to be very lean. Somewhere I've > got a copy of PC-MOS. There's also DR-DOS/GEM. > > Depends on what you'd like to do. OS/2 gets my vote. I ran a 486-33 with OS/2 Warp 4 + XFree86 for quite a while. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 27 22:09:25 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 20:09:25 -0700 Subject: Good deals on PC100/133 DIMMs? In-Reply-To: <200608272254.27943.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608251438420383.004312DC@10.0.0.252> <200608272254.27943.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608272009250190.0BBE8C9E@10.0.0.252> On 8/27/2006 at 10:54 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >I could use some - or 128s for that matter, particularly if somebody _is_ >throwing them away. This box I'm typing through now was being thrown >away, and it's faster than anything else I'm running here! Only thing is that >it has only the one 256 stick in it, and it'd probalby be happier with more >in there. Agreed, it's surprising how fast some of the older P1/P2 systems can be with enough memory and maybe a nice fast disk controller. But beware--some older mobos will not support more than 256MB. Win2K's memory footprint can get to be pretty big (over 100MB) even with no applications, so memory helps. Don't overlook WIn98--it can run many common 32-bit Windoze apps with much lower memory overhead than 2K or XP. OTOH, NetBSD running KDE seems to set a standard for bloat. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 27 22:12:22 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:12:22 -0400 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <44F25165.9010302@centurytel.net> References: <44F25165.9010302@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <200608272312.22545.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 27 August 2006 10:13 pm, Choctaw Bob wrote: > I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic. > > I am looking for suggestions for an operating system for a PC, specs 75 > MHZ Pentium, 16 MB Ram, 4 GB HD, currently running PC-DOS Ver 7. > Original IBM PC-DOS right out of the factory sealed box. I am thinking > about putting GEM on the machine, maybe CP/M-86. Thought about GEOS, > but rejected it, too closed. > Specs seem too tight for Linux or BSD, or at least little advantage over > DOS or CP/M. > > Anyone have experience with an operating system that might work, and be > capable of useful work? You can go with linux if you leave out a lot of stuff, or go with older versions. My intiail install of Slackware in 1999 was installing *everything* on a 1G HD, these days I feel a bit more comfortable in 4G or so and don't install a lot of stuff. For textmode uses, it'll work well, and if you must GUI, use one of the lighter-weight window managers and stay away from Gnome and KDE. I do more with less hardware by using no GUI at all, like my firewall/router box that runs on a 486, and that's Slackware 10 or so. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 27 22:12:58 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 20:12:58 -0700 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <44F25165.9010302@centurytel.net> References: <44F25165.9010302@centurytel.net> Message-ID: At 9:13 PM -0500 8/27/06, Choctaw Bob wrote: >I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic. It's well on topic, I had a P90 laptop with 16MB RAM, and an 800MB HD in 1995. >I am looking for suggestions for an operating system for a PC, specs >75 MHZ Pentium, 16 MB Ram, 4 GB HD, currently running PC-DOS Ver 7. >Original IBM PC-DOS right out of the factory sealed box. I am >thinking about putting GEM on the machine, maybe CP/M-86. Thought >about GEOS, but rejected it, too closed. Specs seem too tight for >Linux or BSD, or at least little advantage over DOS or CP/M. > >Anyone have experience with an operating system that might work, and >be capable of useful work? One bit of advice, try to get a bit more RAM, does it use 30-pin SIMMs or 72-pin SIMMs? If it uses 72-pin SIMMs (and the odds are pretty good that it does), then it should be very easy to get a decent amount of RAM (48-64MB would be good) in there. For a Unix variant, I'd recommend OpenBSD, it does very, very well on low memory systems. You don't mention what you have for a video card, a Matrox Millenium, or Matrox Millenium II has great compatibility with alternative OS's. The real question might be what are you looking to do with the system? If you can bump up the RAM, and are looking for something interesting to try, I'd be inclined to recommend OPENSTEP, or BeOS if you can get them, otherwise AROS, or a couple of the other alternative OS's might be fun. Check out http://www.osnews.com for ideas. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 27 22:21:03 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:21:03 -0400 Subject: Paper tape and 8th bit? In-Reply-To: <200608272301.56246.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608280334.k7S3YYvi070176@keith.ezwind.net> Marking the last byte with the 8th bit saved using a leading string length byte or a trailing zero string delimiter. It dates back to the days when saveing one byte per keyword in the lookup table was a big memory savings :) Bob On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:01:56 -0400, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >On Saturday 26 August 2006 09:23 pm, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> I think you are right about the '=' as well - funny that they would >> "tokenize" in this manner - I've written several BASICs over the years - >> some which operated on pure plain text (no tokenization at all), but most >> replaced all keywords with a single easily recognizable token - I don't see >> what advantage this type of tokenization could have done as it saves no >> space, and you still have to parse the whole word. >Is there any chance that there are more than one keyword that share the same >first few characters? >This reminds me of wordstar "document" format, too... >-- >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and >ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can >be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >- >Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James >M Dakin From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 27 22:23:00 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 20:23:00 -0700 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <44F25D62.9070500@gmail.com> References: <44F25165.9010302@centurytel.net> <200608271958580347.0BB4FC2D@10.0.0.252> <44F25D62.9070500@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:05 PM -0400 8/27/06, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >OS/2 gets my vote. I ran a 486-33 with OS/2 Warp 4 + XFree86 for >quite a while. > >Peace... Sridhar How available is software (OS and apps)? I ran OS/2 from V1.3 - 3.0, shortly after 3 came out, I moved to a Mac. A few years ago I build a Pentium 233 to run OS/2 Warp 3 on, and the hardest part was getting a compatible network card (out of a whole box I had one compatible card). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 27 22:26:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 20:26:24 -0700 Subject: Paper tape and 8th bit? In-Reply-To: <200608272301.56246.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608262337.k7QNbHXI004269@hosting.monisys.ca> <200608270027.k7R0RX4Q010720@hosting.monisys.ca> <200608272301.56246.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608272026240697.0BCE1ADE@10.0.0.252> On 8/27/2006 at 11:01 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> I think you are right about the '=' as well - funny that they would >> "tokenize" in this manner - I've written several BASICs over the years - >> some which operated on pure plain text (no tokenization at all), but most >> replaced all keywords with a single easily recognizable token - I don't see >> what advantage this type of tokenization could have done as it saves no >> space, and you still have to parse the whole word. MS BASIC tokenizes its keywords. On listing back, it does a reverse lookup into its keyword table and substitutes words for tokens. >Is there any chance that there are more than one keyword that share the >same first few characters? I think so, but on one of my old CP/M disks, I came across this table. Does this look like the MS keyword table? I remember writing a converter from MS BASIC80 to another dialect of BASIC, but don't know if this is related to the project. "AND" 247 "ABS" 006 "ATN" 014 "ASC" 021 "AUTO" 171 "CLOSE" 195 "CONT" 154 "CLEAR" 146 "CINT" 028 "CSNG" 029 "CDBL" 030 "CVI" 043 "CVS" 044 "CVD" 045 "COS" 012 "CHR$" 022 "DATA" 132 "DIM" 134 "DEFSTR" 173 "DEFINT" 174 "DEFSNG" 175 "DEFDBL" 176 "DEF" 152 "DELETE" 170 "END" 129 "ELSE" 162 "ERASE" 166 "EDIT" 167 "ERROR" 168 "ERL" 214 "ERR" 215 "EXP" 011 "EOF" 047 "EQV" 250 "FOR" 130 "FIELD" 192 "FILES" 198 "FN" 211 "FRE" 015 "FIX" 031 "GOTO" 137 "GO TO" 137 "GOSUB" 141 "GET" 193 "HEX$" 026 "INPUT" 133 "IF" 139 "INSTR" 218 "INT" 005 "INP" 016 "IMP" 251 "KILL" 200 "LET" 136 "LINE" 177 "LOAD" 196 "LSET" 201 "LPRINT" 158 "LLIST" 159 "LPOS" 027 "LIST" 147 "LOG" 010 "LOC" 048 "LEN" 018 "LEFT$" 001 "LOF" 049 "MERGE" 197 "MOD" 252 "MKI$" 050 "MKS$" 051 "MKD$" 052 "MID$" 003 "NEXT" 131 "NULL" 150 "NAME" 199 "NEW" 148 "NOT" 213 "OUT" 157 "ON" 149 "OPEN" 191 "OR" 248 "OCT$" 025 "PUT" 194 "POKE" 153 "PRINT" 145 "POS" 017 "PEEK" 023 "READ" 135 "RUN" 138 "RESTORE" 140 "RETURN" 142 "REM" 143 "RESUME" 169 "RSET" 202 "RIGHT$" 002 "RND" 008 "RENUM" 172 "RESET" 204 "STOP" 144 "SAVE" 203 "SPC(" 212 "STEP" 209 "SGN" 004 "SQR" 007 "SIN" 009 "STR$" 019 "STRING$" 216 "SPACE$" 024 "SYSTEM" 189 "TRON" 163 "TROFF" 164 "TAB(" 208 "TO" 206 "THEN" 207 "TAN" 013 "USING" 217 "USR" 210 "VAL" 020 "VARPTR" 220 "WIDTH" 161 "WAIT" 151 "XOR" 249 "+" 242 "-" 243 "*" 244 "/" 245 "^" 246 "\" 253 "'" 219 ">" 239 "=" 240 "<" 241 Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 27 22:28:34 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:28:34 -0400 Subject: Good deals on PC100/133 DIMMs? In-Reply-To: <200608272009250190.0BBE8C9E@10.0.0.252> References: <200608251438420383.004312DC@10.0.0.252> <200608272254.27943.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608272009250190.0BBE8C9E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608272328.34593.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 27 August 2006 11:09 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/27/2006 at 10:54 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I could use some - or 128s for that matter, particularly if somebody _is_ > > throwing them away. This box I'm typing through now was being thrown > > away, and it's faster than anything else I'm running here! Only thing is > > that it has only the one 256 stick in it, and it'd probalby be happier > > with more in there. > > Agreed, it's surprising how fast some of the older P1/P2 systems can be > with enough memory and maybe a nice fast disk controller. Well, this one's an Athlon 850. :-) > But beware--some older mobos will not support more than 256MB. I try to find stuff on the MB if I can, usually. > Win2K's memory footprint can get to be pretty big (over 100MB) even with no > applications, so memory helps. Don't overlook WIn98--it can run many > common 32-bit Windoze apps with much lower memory overhead than 2K or XP. I don't run any of that stuff here, excepting one box that's got 98 on it that'll soon be a dual-boot setup. > OTOH, NetBSD running KDE seems to set a standard for bloat. KDE is a pig, no doubt about that. Never did get around to trying any of the BSDs here, I've been pretty happy with Slackware overall. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 27 22:31:31 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:31:31 -0400 Subject: Paper tape and 8th bit? In-Reply-To: <200608272026240697.0BCE1ADE@10.0.0.252> References: <200608262337.k7QNbHXI004269@hosting.monisys.ca> <200608272301.56246.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608272026240697.0BCE1ADE@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608272331.31584.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 27 August 2006 11:26 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >Is there any chance that there are more than one keyword that share the > >same first few characters? > > I think so, but on one of my old CP/M disks, I came across this table. > Does this look like the MS keyword table? I remember writing a converter > from MS BASIC80 to another dialect of BASIC, but don't know if this is > related to the project. <...> > "DEFSTR" 173 > "DEFINT" 174 > "DEFSNG" 175 > "DEFDBL" 176 > "DEF" 152 Well there's one. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 27 22:32:21 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 20:32:21 -0700 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: References: <44F25165.9010302@centurytel.net> <200608271958580347.0BB4FC2D@10.0.0.252> <44F25D62.9070500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608272032210337.0BD38BED@10.0.0.252> On 8/27/2006 at 8:23 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: >How available is software (OS and apps)? I ran OS/2 from V1.3 - 3.0, >shortly after 3 came out, I moved to a Mac. A few years ago I build >a Pentium 233 to run OS/2 Warp 3 on, and the hardest part was getting >a compatible network card (out of a whole box I had one compatible >card). Until recently, when my NICs have been on the mobo, I made it a point to purchase only cards with NE2000 compatibility. Heck, I've even got a couple Artisoft cards with jumperable NE1000/2000 compatiblity. I never had a problem getting anything to run with these--drivers are ubiquitous. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Aug 27 22:34:54 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:34:54 -0400 Subject: Recommendations for operating system References: <44F25165.9010302@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <006101c6ca52$eeb8b810$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Choctaw Bob" To: Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 10:13 PM Subject: Recommendations for operating system > I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic. > > I am looking for suggestions for an operating system for a PC, specs 75 > MHZ Pentium, 16 MB Ram, 4 GB HD, currently running PC-DOS Ver 7. > Original IBM PC-DOS right out of the factory sealed box. I am thinking > about putting GEM on the machine, maybe CP/M-86. Thought about GEOS, > but rejected it, too closed. > Specs seem too tight for Linux or BSD, or at least little advantage over > DOS or CP/M. > > Anyone have experience with an operating system that might work, and be > capable of useful work? People here can shoot me for suggesting Windows, but I would think those specs would be great for Windows for Workgroups (3.11). OS/2 3.0 Warp or Warp Connect, and Windows 95 OEMSR2. If you can upgrade the CPU and RAM cheaply then other operating systems would work as well. It all depends on what you want to do with the system. From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Aug 27 22:42:26 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:42:26 -0400 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200608272032210337.0BD38BED@10.0.0.252> References: <44F25165.9010302@centurytel.net> <200608272032210337.0BD38BED@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608272342.26388.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 27 August 2006 11:32 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/27/2006 at 8:23 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: > >How available is software (OS and apps)? I ran OS/2 from V1.3 - 3.0, > >shortly after 3 came out, I moved to a Mac. A few years ago I build > >a Pentium 233 to run OS/2 Warp 3 on, and the hardest part was getting > >a compatible network card (out of a whole box I had one compatible > >card). > > Until recently, when my NICs have been on the mobo, I made it a point to > purchase only cards with NE2000 compatibility. Heck, I've even got a > couple Artisoft cards with jumperable NE1000/2000 compatiblity. I never > had a problem getting anything to run with these--drivers are ubiquitous. I have some of those (compatibles, dunno what they actually are) and a fair number of 3c509 cards, if anybody needs some. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 27 22:58:44 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 20:58:44 -0700 Subject: Good deals on PC100/133 DIMMs? In-Reply-To: <200608272328.34593.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608251438420383.004312DC@10.0.0.252> <200608272254.27943.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608272009250190.0BBE8C9E@10.0.0.252> <200608272328.34593.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608272058440222.0BEBB2C3@10.0.0.252> On 8/27/2006 at 11:28 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Well, this one's an Athlon 850. :-) By my standards, you're a speed demon. Heck the one I'm using now is a P3/800--I don't think I have anything faster. With 1.5Mb/sec DSL and the kind of work I do, I can't see a use for anythig speedier. (BTW, this is an old HP Vectra--never had a lick of trouble with it). Running Win2K. I've got mobos for faster CPUs, just never saw the need for taking the trouble to install them. What do I care if a compile takes 5 seconds or 8 seconds? If I'm doing something like a big build, I just shunt it off onto another system. This ties into the post about "Recommendations for OS-es". It all depends on what you're doing. As a side topic perhaps suitable for another thread, how many of us use our computers for computing in the sense of mathematical computation? A spreadsheet would be a good example of such a use. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 27 23:15:54 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 00:15:54 -0400 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: References: <44F25165.9010302@centurytel.net> <200608271958580347.0BB4FC2D@10.0.0.252> <44F25D62.9070500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44F26DFA.1090302@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:05 PM -0400 8/27/06, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> OS/2 gets my vote. I ran a 486-33 with OS/2 Warp 4 + XFree86 for >> quite a while. >> >> Peace... Sridhar > > How available is software (OS and apps)? I ran OS/2 from V1.3 - 3.0, > shortly after 3 came out, I moved to a Mac. A few years ago I build a > Pentium 233 to run OS/2 Warp 3 on, and the hardest part was getting a > compatible network card (out of a whole box I had one compatible card). It's actually pretty good. Since the EMX UNIX environment for OS/2 came out, many UNIX programs now run under OS/2. Driver support has never been that great, but many of the more common cards out there are supported. Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 27 23:35:33 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 21:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paper tape and 8th bit? In-Reply-To: <200608272331.31584.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608262337.k7QNbHXI004269@hosting.monisys.ca> <200608272301.56246.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608272026240697.0BCE1ADE@10.0.0.252> <200608272331.31584.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20060827213252.D33345@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 27 Aug 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I think so, but on one of my old CP/M disks, I came across this table. > Does this look like the MS keyword table? I remember writing a converter > from MS BASIC80 to another dialect of BASIC, but don't know if this is > related to the project. ...and between MBASIC 4.51 and 5.03 they changed all of the tokens. choice of write a converter or load each .BAS file into 4.51 and SAVE "file", A From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Aug 28 03:17:35 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 09:17:35 +0100 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 27 Aug 2006 21:25:21 CDT." <44F25411.209@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200608280817.JAA03228@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jim Brain said: > Choctaw Bob wrote: > > I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic. > > > > I am looking for suggestions for an operating system for a PC, specs > > 75 MHZ Pentium, 16 MB Ram, 4 GB HD, currently running PC-DOS Ver 7. > > Original IBM PC-DOS right out of the factory sealed box. I am > > thinking about putting GEM on the machine, maybe CP/M-86. Thought > > about GEOS, but rejected it, too closed. Specs seem too tight for > > Linux or BSD, or at least little advantage over DOS or CP/M. > > > > Anyone have experience with an operating system that might work, and > > be capable of useful work? > Dunno, Slackware Linux runs great on a machine like that, would make a > nice print server, file server, or web server. I used a 75MHz Overdrive > 20M ram for a few years as a file server, and I could stream movies or > mp3 off it. I concur. I used to run Linux on a system of similar spec. Modern linuces are a bit more demanding, but a carefully taylored Slack installation should be fine. Just avoid Gnome and KDE. My print server, a 486/100, has 16MB, _no_ hard disk and runs Linux just fine... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Aug 28 07:19:15 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:19:15 +0200 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <44F25165.9010302@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <44F2FB63.17966.48D01B20@localhost> Am 27 Aug 2006 21:13 meinte Choctaw Bob: > I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic. > I am looking for suggestions for an operating system for a PC, specs 75 > MHZ Pentium, 16 MB Ram, 4 GB HD, currently running PC-DOS Ver 7. > Original IBM PC-DOS right out of the factory sealed box. I am thinking > about putting GEM on the machine, maybe CP/M-86. Thought about GEOS, > but rejected it, too closed. > Specs seem too tight for Linux or BSD, or at least little advantage over > DOS or CP/M. > Anyone have experience with an operating system that might work, and be > capable of useful work? Depends what you considere usefull. If you like Unix, then Linux is a good choice. With a little tuneing and a very lightwight window manager, you may run most actual stuff without problems. In fact, even a fattened Gnome or a KDE heavywight will run as fast ast Win 98 does. In all cases, the real bottleneck is not the CPU, but rather your memory. If possible, and most Pentium-75 boards can, you should upgrade to 64 MB - then even WinXP is doable. In fact, especialy on slow CPUs, XP outperforms 98 by 5-15% due way better cache and memory handling. In comparsion, 98 is the bloated OS. Also XP is _way_ more responsive to user interaction. they did a great job to give early feedback, so that applications _feel_ faster under XP, than by using 98. Thats in real world application more important than real speed. isn't it? Said that, we have to agree that the 75 is not realy a race horce, nor has been when it was new - the 50 MHz bus speed has been a way to sell lower performance ('value') PCs. If your PC has bus speed setings, it might be worth a try to set it to 60 or 66 MHz, resulting in a 90/100 MHz CPU speed. Most Pentium, especialy the late versions weill easy follow. And you could try to set the multiplier to more than 1.5. I've seen Pentium 90 going up to serve as 166. Mult Bus Speed iComp 1.0 50 50 (Never official) 1.0 60 60 510 1.0 66 66 567 1.5 50 75 610 1.5 60 90 735 1.5 66 100 815 2.0 50 100 (Never official) 2.0 60 120 1000 2.0 66 133 1110 2.5 50 125 (Never official) 2.5 60 150 1176 2.5 66 166 1308 3.0 50 150 (Never official) 3.0 60 180 1270 (Only very short available) 3.0 66 200 ~1420 Especialy the comparsion P166/P180 shows the influence of bus speed vs. CPU Speed. a P166 (66 MHz x 2.5) is in real world apps faster than a P180 (60 MHz x 3.0). Thats also why the P180 was only around for a real short time. So, speeding up the bus is the best to get out more of your P75, since the restriction to 50 MHz bus speed was artificial (unlike the multiplier). Back then, with the open multipliers and various bus speeds, just by swaping jumpers or dip switches, the golden age of overclocking ruled. The basic .35 micron process was fine for some 300 MHz, meaning that >=50% of all die manufactured where good for at least 200 MHz, a well made heat sink with fan given. This was very obvious with the PII that began with the same process and was widely seen only as 233 and 266 CPUs - the top notch 300 MHz model was not only rare, but also did run quite hot - shure signs for the maximum capability of the .35 process. Socket 7 was a great time. Now, coming back to systems, I still give out P166-P233MMX systems to people. A good configuration to run Office I found would be: P200 64 MB RAM 4+ Gig drive as C with all Apps 4+ Gig drive partitioned as Z/D where Z is a 512 MB dedicated swap. 1 DVD drive (if possible a writer at 40 Euro) WindowsXP Office2003 Firefox Such a machine can satisfy all every day (home-) office needs without problems, and they found quite some happy users arround here. Of course, you should not try to runn any video game - but when adding an old Nvidia Geforce2 or 4 card it'll even make lots of game fun. Linux (Gentoo with KDE) runs equaly well - except that the people I usualy give this machines to are not realy computer geeks. So, try to tickle a bit more Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 28 06:08:53 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 07:08:53 -0400 Subject: Recommendations for operating system Message-ID: <0J4P0079SG5L6MP5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Recommendations for operating system > From: Choctaw Bob > Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 21:13:57 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic. > >I am looking for suggestions for an operating system for a PC, specs 75 >MHZ Pentium, 16 MB Ram, 4 GB HD, currently running PC-DOS Ver 7. >Original IBM PC-DOS right out of the factory sealed box. I am thinking >about putting GEM on the machine, maybe CP/M-86. Thought about GEOS, >but rejected it, too closed. >Specs seem too tight for Linux or BSD, or at least little advantage over >DOS or CP/M. > >Anyone have experience with an operating system that might work, and be >capable of useful work? On boxes of that scale I've run DOS3.11->6.22, W3.11 W95, w98, NT4*, ConcurrentDos, and OS2/Warp3. I'll add linux but stick to older distros as the newer ones are big. NT4 wants at least 32mb of ram but runs smoothly even on 33mhz 486s. However as a useful box DOS, w3.11, W95 and NT4 were the most useful as I could run a wider range of available apps. I have a p100 with 32m running w98se with two disks, boot is 500mb and D: is 4.3gb and it's a useful tool. Allison From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 28 08:39:58 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 09:39:58 -0400 Subject: Recommendations for operating system Message-ID: <000701c6caa7$7452a400$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>> I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic. Granted, this is the on- and off-topic list, vs. cctech as frequently (and recently!) noted here. But having said that, and at the risk of starting the you-know-what conversation, I * strongly * disagree with putting "Pentium" (or anything newer than most computers based on a 286/386) into the on-topicness of classiccmp. I know this is supposed to be a vaguely family-friendly list and all, but as for the fucking 10-year-rule, I say let's fucking throw it away and never fucking bring it up again. Chronological rules don't work because of Moore's Law. From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 09:06:18 2006 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 10:06:18 -0400 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <000701c6caa7$7452a400$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000701c6caa7$7452a400$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0608280706q615b25e3q5cfbce65c2763dae@mail.gmail.com> If using linux: get a distribution based on the 2.4 kernel, it's much more old-system friendly than the 2.6 kernel. Gentoo can be tricky and time-consuming to install, but you get a very optimized system, and it maintains the 2.4 kernel tree. Puppy linux is also a good distro for older machines. It's small, tight and fast. Otherwise, NetBSD and FreeBSD are also good choices for some Nix-style computing. QNX used to have a stripped down distribution for use on older machines. I think it had a whole OS and browser on one floppy, or small ISO. Plan 9 / Inferno might be fun to play with. V2 OS is interesting, and super-fast (written mostly in 32-bit assembler) From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Aug 28 09:13:33 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:13:33 +0200 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <000701c6caa7$7452a400$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <44F3162D.9165.4938BF36@localhost> Am 28 Aug 2006 9:39 meinte Evan Koblentz: > >>> I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic. > Granted, this is the on- and off-topic list, vs. cctech as frequently (and > recently!) noted here. But having said that, and at the risk of starting > the you-know-what conversation, I * strongly * disagree with putting > "Pentium" (or anything newer than most computers based on a 286/386) into > the on-topicness of classiccmp. I know this is supposed to be a vaguely > family-friendly list and all, but as for the fucking 10-year-rule, I say > let's fucking throw it away and never fucking bring it up again. > Chronological rules don't work because of Moore's Law. Well, I could add quite some apropriate German words her (and Schwein wouldn't be among :), but for the sake of all the thousands little kids monitoring the list, lets go without. You know, basicly I realy do go along with your intention. Except, the 10 year rule is not about whats on topic, it's in case of doubt to tell exactly what's _NOT_ topic of the list. It's about definitive exclusion. It does not make stuff older than 10 years automatic classic. The few exemptens, like recreations and new hardware for real old stuff, are usualy also not in dispute. Now, having said that, or I should say I did go along - more or less until the last posing - when I realized how outdated a Pentium already is, and what simple fun it was to tune it - going all from just changing the bus speed from 50 to 60 MHz until building a water cooling system with a massive silver CPU pice - if you go there, you should go with better thermal transport than just Al or Cu :)) Also, recently I had to learn, that it becomes be a problem to keep a certain socket 7 system (aka Pentium P5/P54C) working for museum purpose. TIme might pass faster than one thought. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 28 10:23:46 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:23:46 -0400 Subject: Recommendations for operating system Message-ID: <0J4P00BCQRYCER3B@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Recommendations for operating system > From: "Hans Franke" > Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:19:15 +0200 > To: Choctaw Bob , > "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Now, coming back to systems, I still give out P166-P233MMX systems to >people. A good configuration to run Office I found would be: > >P200 >64 MB RAM >4+ Gig drive as C with all Apps >4+ Gig drive partitioned as Z/D where Z is a 512 MB dedicated swap. >1 DVD drive (if possible a writer at 40 Euro) >WindowsXP >Office2003 >Firefox > I'm not fond of MS software or OS but since it's pervasive having a good system running it for compatability is handy. The work a day box here is P166, 128mb 4.3gb, 20gb, SCSI CD writer(plextor) running NT4server no MS apps though. All the apps are non MS including Firefox and Thunderbird. Usual uptime for the system is months of 7x24 then I shutdown to clean dust of of the fans and the like. Reliability beats speed as reboots take a long time. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 28 11:01:56 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 12:01:56 -0400 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <000701c6caa7$7452a400$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000701c6caa7$7452a400$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: On Aug 28, 2006, at 9:39 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>> I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic. > > Granted, this is the on- and off-topic list, vs. cctech as frequently > (and > recently!) noted here. But having said that, and at the risk of > starting > the you-know-what conversation, I * strongly * disagree with putting > "Pentium" (or anything newer than most computers based on a 286/386) > into > the on-topicness of classiccmp. I know this is supposed to be a > vaguely > family-friendly list and all, but as for the fucking 10-year-rule, I > say > let's fucking throw it away and never fucking bring it up again. > Chronological rules don't work because of Moore's Law. Either that or let's change it to the "twenty year rule" and revisit it in another few years. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 28 11:07:35 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 09:07:35 -0700 Subject: PC ist schlect Message-ID: > I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic. Raising the noise here another 6db is a wonderful idea. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Aug 28 11:09:00 2006 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 12:09:00 EDT Subject: Recommendations for operating system Message-ID: > >Subject: Re: Recommendations for operating system > From: "Hans Franke" > Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:19:15 +0200 > To: Choctaw Bob , > "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Now, coming back to systems, I still give out P166-P233MMX systems to >people. A good configuration to run Office I found would be: > >P200 >64 MB RAM >4+ Gig drive as C with all Apps >4+ Gig drive partitioned as Z/D where Z is a 512 MB dedicated swap. >1 DVD drive (if possible a writer at 40 Euro) >WindowsXP >Office2003 >Firefox > --------------- I suggest Warp connect in the blue box with win3.1 support built in. It would be pretty snappy on a P200 and there's plenty of apps to run, although later developed programs want version 4.0 however. You can use IBM peer on 3.0 to share files, and if you use a 3com NIC, NDIS drivers are available. Installing fixpaks is not that bad either if you use some of the free fixpak installation programs. Google for OS/2 device driver pak online and you can see what kind of hardware has drivers for it. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Aug 28 11:11:09 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:11:09 -0500 Subject: Recommendations for operating system Message-ID: Look at BeOS Max or BeOS DevEd. Good, fast OSes, and downloadable freely. Application availability is somewhat on the spotty end, though. OS/2 (not sure about the UNIX environment) doesn't come with headers/compilers, and IBM doesn't sell the devel kit anymore (and it was very pricy when they did). I think you can get StarOffice, though. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 28 11:38:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 09:38:38 -0700 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: References: <000701c6caa7$7452a400$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <200608280938380453.0EA3683F@10.0.0.252> On 8/28/2006 at 12:01 PM Dave McGuire wrote: > Either that or let's change it to the "twenty year rule" and revisit >it in another few years. When we're talking about old software, there's not a heckuva lot of difference between a Pentium or a 486 (and clones) or even a 386 (especially when the math coprocessor is installed) or a 386SX. Windows 9x runs on them all just fine. Other than the PCI bus not being present on the 386 boxes, the distinction to me would seem to be somewhat arbitrary. And the 80386 is almost exactly 20 years old. As far as software is concerned, the OP could well have posted a question about an 80386 system and gotten the same answers. Okay, so let's turn back the clock 5 more years and set the cutoff at 25 years to 1981. That would let out many of your favorite workstations, IBM PC-XTs, all VAXen but for the 11/1780 and the 11/750, the Next boxes and even a few CP/M 8-bitters. Conversation on the list would slow to a trickle, methinks. It's interesting that the computer field seems to model a biological system. There's a tremendous amount of species diversity in a young forest of, say, Douglas fir. As the stand matures, the heavy shade cover forces out most other plants until one is pretty much left with Douglas fir and various mosses and ferns that can tolerate the shade. Right now, we're looking at what appears to me to be a mature technological system--we've got nothing but a forest of Pentiums and Pentium look-alikes with other minor CPUs occupying the role of embedded support functions. You've seen one, you've seen them all. Short of a major upheaval, I'd expect things to stay like this for a very long time. And it's boring. We could exclude certain CPUs, but that doesn't address the issue that anything that runs on an older CPU will probably run on a newer CPU of the same family, so one might as well include the newer ones. I don't know what the answer is. Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 28 11:50:42 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 12:50:42 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200608280938380453.0EA3683F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <000101c6cac2$19c45040$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>>> We could exclude certain CPUs, but that doesn't address the issue that anything that runs on an older CPU will probably run on a newer CPU of the same family, so one might as well include the newer ones. I don't know what the answer is. <<<< I do. The answer is to define what's on-topic using carefully chosen words, not dumbed-down years. LOL, I'm not saying I know what those words might be. But in general I think there should be healthy debate and discussion (not necessarily here and now) rather than the usual "you're an idiot" vs. "no you are" that spawns here every six months. From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Aug 28 12:09:45 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:09:45 +0200 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200608280938380453.0EA3683F@10.0.0.252> References: Message-ID: <44F33F79.24852.49DA1110@localhost> Am 28 Aug 2006 9:38 meinte Chuck Guzis: > On 8/28/2006 at 12:01 PM Dave McGuire wrote: > > Either that or let's change it to the "twenty year rule" and revisit > >it in another few years. Yeah, we should have done this 20 years ago - Microprocessors are just off topic at all :)) > Right now, we're looking at what appears to me to be a mature technological > system--we've got nothing but a forest of Pentiums and Pentium look-alikes > with other minor CPUs occupying the role of embedded support functions. > You've seen one, you've seen them all. Short of a major upheaval, I'd > expect things to stay like this for a very long time. And it's boring. To some extend. Then again, you just might have to have a closer look. There have been plenty of differences between the CPUs and it continues. Also, the extreme similarity is only if you look at the desktop market. All arround there's still quite some neat stuff to play with - and not long ago I rediscovered that it is fun to play with the newest toys - SSE 1/2/3/4 offers quite some new ways to use (and enhance) some old knowledge about streaming. I found that knowing about how a /370 statezising works and how a CDC 6600 internaly handels the PP vs CPU workflow - and how vector processing in general works gives a great advantage over the young ones :) Agreed, you've seen one, you've seen all, but that would already be true if one would have just learned the /360 and the PDP-11. All thereafter was just variations - and it doesn't matter if they are binary compatible or not - who realy cares about the code reprensentation (Remembers me of an Israel based company that did a one on one clone of some VAX, except that they swaped high and low nibble of the opcodes :) > We could exclude certain CPUs, but that doesn't address the issue that > anything that runs on an older CPU will probably run on a newer CPU of the > same family, so one might as well include the newer ones. Not not realy. While it's true that a DOS based 8088-Programm could probably work on an Athlon64, chachances are good that it also might require some work ... like running a PET programm on a C65. > I don't know what the answer is. To me, whenever a certain Machine/Idea is either no longer of _average_ daily use (for whatever reason) or old enough that it will be viewe as 'good old thingy' it becomes an acceptable topic for the list. Beside that, I'll go with the old idea, that it needs two (or more) for a working communication. No Interest - No Response - No Communication That simple, and noone needed to govern it. H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Aug 28 12:09:57 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 12:09:57 -0500 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <000101c6cac2$19c45040$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000101c6cac2$19c45040$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <44F32365.5030804@mdrconsult.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>>>We could exclude certain CPUs, but that doesn't address the issue that > > anything that runs on an older CPU will probably run on a newer CPU of the > same family, so one might as well include the newer ones. I don't know what > the answer is. <<<< > > I do. The answer is to define what's on-topic using carefully chosen words, > not dumbed-down years. LOL, I'm not saying I know what those words might > be. But in general I think there should be healthy debate and discussion > (not necessarily here and now) rather than the usual "you're an idiot" vs. > "no you are" that spawns here every six months. I find it a little odd that an advocate of healthy debate and discussion would start the discussion in such a vehement way. It also looks to me as if completely irrelevant threads die a natural death unless we start the on-topic/off-topic skirmish. The ones that don't, Jay smacks down reasonably quickly. There is absolutely no way any topic guideline is going to cover even a reasonable subset of possible submissions. A good example is this thread. While the hardware is pretty blah, it's turning into a fairly interesting comparison of older OS possibilities. Another is one of my Pentiums that started life as a P75 w/16MB is one of my primary tools for dealing with my older computers. Disk transcription, disk/tape emulation, and a host of other functions that *can* be replaced by a computer that meets your definition of on-topic, but with no functional difference whatsoever. There have been a number of threads dealing with using Windows 9x/NT/2k/XP in that sort of supportive capacity. As far as I'm concerned, those are both far more on-topic than worrying to the list about online plagiarism. Doc From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 28 12:14:36 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:14:36 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <44F33F79.24852.49DA1110@localhost> Message-ID: <000701c6cac5$70605f90$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>>> To me, whenever a certain Machine/Idea is either no longer of _average_ daily use (for whatever reason) or old enough that it will be viewe as 'good old thingy' it becomes an acceptable topic for the list. Agreed. So if those 486s are still good for *nix firewalls, then they're not vintage. I guess the companies still using DEC minicomputers and the whole crew over at club100.org (which supports modern use, not merely collecting of) are the exceptions. :) From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 28 12:18:53 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:18:53 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <44F32365.5030804@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <000801c6cac6$09ae6fc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>>> As far as I'm concerned, those are both far more on-topic than worrying to the list about online plagiarism You're correct in relative terms, but as many people noted, we're all here because we chose to be on the on- and off-topic list. So I wasn't saying that I mind the off-topicness, I was just replying to Choctaw Bob's original comment that "I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic." From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 28 12:19:48 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:19:48 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system References: <000101c6cac2$19c45040$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <006401c6cac6$2a731bc0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Koblentz" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 12:50 PM Subject: RE: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system > I do. The answer is to define what's on-topic using carefully chosen words, > not dumbed-down years. LOL, I'm not saying I know what those words might > be. But in general I think there should be healthy debate and discussion > (not necessarily here and now) rather than the usual "you're an idiot" vs. > "no you are" that spawns here every six months. The way I see things you need a bridge between the present and the distant past to get younger people interested in the hobby. Having a drop dead cutoff at the first Intel 80x86 is only going to kill new blood from joining because that is all they have ever used at this point. If you start collecting 286/386 machines and join this list to talk about them the older topics will sooner or later spark interest in something older and different. Keeping 286/386 topics off the list will just keep people away who eventually might have started collecting the older items they knew nothing about at the time they joined. Why bother preserving anything when this list and the knowledge contained here is just going to vanish after the last pre Intel collector dies. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 28 13:23:20 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:23:20 +0000 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200608280938380453.0EA3683F@10.0.0.252> References: <000701c6caa7$7452a400$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200608280938380453.0EA3683F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44F33498.4090505@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Right now, we're looking at what appears to me to be a mature technological > system--we've got nothing but a forest of Pentiums and Pentium look-alikes > with other minor CPUs occupying the role of embedded support functions. > You've seen one, you've seen them all. Short of a major upheaval, I'd > expect things to stay like this for a very long time. And it's boring. Not so sure about that - in the natural world something wins out because it's essentially the best tool for the job. In the technical world, something tends to either win out because its built cheaply (and society won't pay for quality any more) or because whoever made it was good at aggressive marketing. I'm all for diversity - life's boring if everyone does the same thing. But having said that, I could live with every computer being the same I think - providing that computer was reliable, efficient, and built to last. It's the fact that we've ended up with a sea of sub-standard throwaway product which could be so much better that irritates. > I don't know what the answer is. I suspect there isn't one, but that the list member count is high enough that things pretty much regulate themselves. If the majority of people aren't interested in subject x then they won't reply to posts about subject x and so over time less posts about subject x will be made. Trying to control list direction by adding more rules or tweaking the rules that there are risks completely upsetting the balance of things, I expect. cheers J. -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Aug 28 12:22:51 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 12:22:51 -0500 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system Message-ID: At the risk of being overly buzzword compliant, how about something along the lines of "computing that differs materially from the current computing paradigm"? That would allow limited discussion of interesting O/S and other software on currentish computers or "heavily microcoded" implementations of classic machines, whilst excluding Windows 95 and modernish hardware discussions. From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 28 12:32:30 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:32:30 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <006401c6cac6$2a731bc0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <000901c6cac7$f08ef080$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>>> The way I see things you need a bridge between the present and the distant past to get younger people interested in the hobby. Having a drop dead cutoff at the first Intel 80x86 is only going to kill new blood from joining because that is all they have ever used at this point. If you start collecting 286/386 machines and join this list to talk about them the older topics will sooner or later spark interest in something older and different. Keeping 286/386 topics off the list will just keep people away who eventually might have started collecting the older items they knew nothing about at the time they joined. Why bother preserving anything when this list and the knowledge contained here is just going to vanish after the last pre-Intel collector dies. A serious problem indeed. My personal opinion is that classiccmp's format itself of using a plain email list is a big part of the obstacle our hobby will soon face, re: our breed becoming extinct, if we're already on the endangered list. For the most part I strongly prefer the simple email list, and I think most people here agree. But communities like the web forum at www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum and the group blog at http://community.livejournal.com/vintagecomputer/ are growing faster than classiccmp, at least to my perception. Why? From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Aug 28 12:25:32 2006 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 12:25:32 -0500 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200608281225.k7SCPBv3003687@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608281225.k7SCPBv3003687@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 7:25 -0500 8/28/06, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >I am looking for suggestions for an operating system for a PC, specs 75 >MHZ Pentium, 16 MB Ram, 4 GB HD, currently running PC-DOS Ver 7. Depending very heavily on what motherboard, video card, etc. you have, NeXTStep 3.3. 16MB is thinner than what you'd like, but 4 G hard drive is fine and if the disk is fast enough, swap should not be a horrible problem. -- - Mark Cell Phone: 210-379-4635 office: 210-522-6025 From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 28 12:34:16 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:34:16 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001001c6cac8$2f8d7ef0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>> At the risk of being overly buzzword compliant, how about something along the lines of "computing that differs materially from the current computing paradigm"? That would allow limited discussion of interesting O/S and other software on currentish computers or "heavily microcoded" implementations of classic machines, whilst excluding Windows 95 and modernish hardware discussions. Or how about just "No beige boxes!" ;) From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Aug 28 12:37:48 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:37:48 +0200 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <000101c6cac2$19c45040$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <200608280938380453.0EA3683F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44F3460C.4915.49F3BE00@localhost> Am 28 Aug 2006 12:50 meinte Evan Koblentz: > >>>> We could exclude certain CPUs, but that doesn't address the issue that > anything that runs on an older CPU will probably run on a newer CPU of the > same family, so one might as well include the newer ones. I don't know what > the answer is. <<<< > I do. The answer is to define what's on-topic using carefully chosen words, > not dumbed-down years. LOL, I'm not saying I know what those words might > be. But in general I think there should be healthy debate and discussion > (not necessarily here and now) rather than the usual "you're an idiot" vs. > "no you are" that spawns here every six months. *G* Remember, the world isn't static ... and we should feel lucky about it. While it moves on, stuff gets old, and just because we also do so, we still think of it as new. Haveing had a five week exhibition with some old computers during the last two month, I once more got confrontet with people which I would considere adault, that think of an Atari ST as ancient as it could be ... I mean, that's an ST, that machine is actual to my understanding - just because the compny crumbled it's gone ... or? People coming up who belived that the first IBM was realy the first machine to bear th PC name - and beliveing that it had an 286 and was running Windows. Asking me about the 'huge' old disks and showing complete surprise when I pulled an 8". Even having a hard time to understand the idea of 3" disks :)) Realy, we are as much Dinosaurs as our Machiines are. The 10 year rule is a good way to keep us from dieing out. m 28 Aug 2006 13:14 meinte Evan Koblentz: > >>>> To me, whenever a certain Machine/Idea is either no longer of _average_ > daily use (for whatever reason) or old enough that it will be viewe as 'good > old thingy' it becomes an acceptable topic for the list. > Agreed. So if those 486s are still good for *nix firewalls, then they're > not vintage. Hmm, but so are all 386es used in tons of _new_ constructed machinery, and especialy all the Z80 and 6502 variations used in millions of game consoles. Well, I couln't point on a 8080, but the 8085 is also clearly off topic, since there has been a new controler based on it last year :) Am 28 Aug 2006 13:18 meinte Evan Koblentz: > So I wasn't saying > that I mind the off-topicness, I was just replying to Choctaw Bob's original > comment that "I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic." To conclude this (on my side), for me freedom is more important than any pure dogma, rules are to avoide problems, not to curb freedom, and no rule should be made just out of momentary feelings. And properly used (and as hard as it comes for me to advocate this), Pentiums are by now quite fine on this list. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Aug 28 12:38:39 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:38:39 +0200 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <44F33498.4090505@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200608280938380453.0EA3683F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44F3463F.20138.49F485D4@localhost> Am 28 Aug 2006 18:23 meinte Jules Richardson: > I suspect there isn't one, but that the list member count is high enough that > things pretty much regulate themselves. If the majority of people aren't > interested in subject x then they won't reply to posts about subject x and so > over time less posts about subject x will be made. Trying to control list > direction by adding more rules or tweaking the rules that there are risks > completely upsetting the balance of things, I expect. Thanks. Case settled. H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Aug 28 12:36:46 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 10:36:46 -0700 Subject: PC ist schlect In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608281036.46453.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 28 August 2006 09:07, Al Kossow wrote: > > I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic. > > Raising the noise here another 6db is a wonderful idea. How about 10db? I now delete about 85% of the messages on this list. In fact, the noise level has risen on a regular basis to where I'm about to unsubscribe... Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From kth at srv.net Mon Aug 28 06:54:26 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 05:54:26 -0600 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <000801c6cac6$09ae6fc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000801c6cac6$09ae6fc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <44F2D972.4020501@srv.net> Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>>>As far as I'm concerned, those are both far more on-topic than worrying >>>>> >>>>> >to the list about online plagiarism > >You're correct in relative terms, but as many people noted, we're all here >because we chose to be on the on- and off-topic list. So I wasn't saying >that I mind the off-topicness, I was just replying to Choctaw Bob's original >comment that "I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic." > > > > Instead of creating complex lists or rules of what's on-topic, why not just state that this group isn't intrested in Microsoft Windows, as that OS is already covered by numerous other newsgroups. That seems to be the main one being placed OT. Then specifying that "old" hardware and other "old" software is on-topic, unless likewise barred. It would be easier to create an opt-out list instead of an opt-in list. When Microsoft Windows becomes an abandoned project, then its opt-out status could be reviewed. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 28 12:39:10 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 10:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0608280706q615b25e3q5cfbce65c2763dae@mail.gmail.com> from "Jason McBrien" at Aug 28, 2006 10:06:18 AM Message-ID: <200608281739.k7SHdAp9019212@onyx.spiritone.com> > V2 OS is interesting, and super-fast (written mostly in 32-bit assembler) > OK, this is why discussions such as this one are *GOOD*! I've never heard of the V2_OS, and now am going to have to spend some time learning about it. Any hardware recommendations for it? Zane From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 12:41:24 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:41:24 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200608280938380453.0EA3683F@10.0.0.252> References: <000701c6caa7$7452a400$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200608280938380453.0EA3683F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > Conversation on the list would slow to a > trickle, methinks. Quality beats quantity every time... -- Will From evan at snarc.net Mon Aug 28 12:46:02 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:46:02 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <44F3460C.4915.49F3BE00@localhost> Message-ID: <001501c6cac9$d48c4e80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>> Pentiums are by now quite fine on this list No no no no no no no no no no no no no nooooooooooooooooooooo. We need Sellam back on the list. He'll slap some sense back into you. :) From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 12:48:19 2006 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:48:19 -0400 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <000701c6caa7$7452a400$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000701c6caa7$7452a400$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0608281048i42305a94me96d0409b78416ac@mail.gmail.com> On 8/28/06, Evan Koblentz wrote: > But having said that, and at the risk of starting > the you-know-what conversation, I * strongly * disagree with putting > "Pentium" (or anything newer than most computers based on a 286/386) into > the on-topicness of classiccmp. I would most certainly consider the IBM 9595 a "Classic" or just about any machine from the PS/2 series, as they are extinct and architecturally interesting. These were available with blisteringly fast Pentium 60's as I recall. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Aug 28 12:54:34 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 10:54:34 -0700 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <000901c6cac7$f08ef080$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000901c6cac7$f08ef080$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <1156787674.44f32dda6b75f@webmail.secure-wi.com> Quoting Evan Koblentz : > A serious problem indeed. My personal opinion is that classiccmp's format > itself of using a plain email list is a big part of the obstacle our hobby > will soon face, re: our breed becoming extinct, if we're already on the > endangered list. For the most part I strongly prefer the simple email list, > and I think most people here agree. But communities like the web forum at > www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum and the group blog at > http://community.livejournal.com/vintagecomputer/ are growing faster than > classiccmp, at least to my perception. Why? > The audience at vintage-computer.com seems to be a bit different than the audience of this list. This list is far more 'hardcore.' There is a much wider variety of hardware being discussed and there is a lot more big iron represented. That being said, the less 'hardcore' forums are more accessible to the rest of the population. Both places have noise problems. On the web forums it is generally a 'less professional' audience and the level of knowledge is not as deep. They also tend to go off into the tulips quite a bit, and I'm not talking about DEC Ethernet cards. Here on the cctalk list the off-topic discussion seems to arise from people trying to be overly pedantic and showing off their hardcore eliteness. Yes, I feel inferior because I'm interested in old 8/16 bitters and I don't build my own CPUs from raw sand. ;-) Btw, I like the email/text nature of this list better. It serves as a higher barrier to entry. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 28 12:58:16 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:58:16 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system References: <000901c6cac7$f08ef080$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <008701c6cacb$8a106560$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Koblentz" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 1:32 PM Subject: RE: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system > A serious problem indeed. My personal opinion is that classiccmp's format > itself of using a plain email list is a big part of the obstacle our hobby > will soon face, re: our breed becoming extinct, if we're already on the > endangered list. For the most part I strongly prefer the simple email list, > and I think most people here agree. But communities like the web forum at > www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum and the group blog at > http://community.livejournal.com/vintagecomputer/ are growing faster than > classiccmp, at least to my perception. Why? Probably because most people are visual creatures and anything on the WWW can have pictures attached and are easily searchable via Google. A Google search for a specific item will show hits on the vcforum and most likely the livejournal site you listed, but nothing would come up for an email list. My preference for searches starts doing a specific search using Google via the WWW, if that does not get a good hit I will then try Google on the newsgroups, if I still have no luck I might try matching up the model number on Google images and hunt there. My next try is doing a less specific search (still using google) for the manufacturer and that usually turns up plenty of websites and forums. If all else fails I look for email lists that cater to the subject and join, hoping nobody bites my head off when I post a question (same as with newsgroups). From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 28 12:58:43 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 10:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <000701c6caa7$7452a400$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> from "Evan Koblentz" at Aug 28, 2006 09:39:58 AM Message-ID: <200608281758.k7SHwhOi019566@onyx.spiritone.com> > >>> I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic. > > Granted, this is the on- and off-topic list, vs. cctech as frequently (and > recently!) noted here. But having said that, and at the risk of starting > the you-know-what conversation, I * strongly * disagree with putting > "Pentium" (or anything newer than most computers based on a 286/386) into > the on-topicness of classiccmp. I know this is supposed to be a vaguely > family-friendly list and all, but as for the ******* 10-year-rule, I say > let's ******* throw it away and never ******* bring it up again. > Chronological rules don't work because of Moore's Law. > Evan, The profanity is neither needed, or appreciated. Pentium and Pentium Pro systems are both on-topic. Furthermore I've seen interesting examples of both. I'm saying this as someone who has absolutely no interest in collecting either. As has been pointed out, systems of this era can be useful in working with even older systems. Plus, (and this is an area I am interested in) they can be useful for running old "dead" OS's and old versions of "live" OS's. The question here becomes what do people use thier "classic" machines for? I've actually been considering building a Windows 95 or 98SE system to play some old games. Probably do it so it will dual boot MS-DOS. Another comment I saw was that a system shouldn't be here till it is no longer useful for real work. That would make this a very small narrowly focused list. The 10 year rule makes sense, especially with the "Coolness exemption". For an example of the "coolness exemption", NeXT HW and software was defintely off-topic on this list when it started, but no one complained about it being discussed. Lets face it, there is some pretty cool hardware even in the last 10 years, you start looking at everything from when this list was started through about 10 years ago, and there is even more cool and interesting stuff. If something being read doesn't interest you, fine, no one is forcing you to read those threads! Zane From james.rice at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 13:00:25 2006 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:00:25 -0500 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <1156787674.44f32dda6b75f@webmail.secure-wi.com> References: <000901c6cac7$f08ef080$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <1156787674.44f32dda6b75f@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: On 8/28/06, mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: Here on the cctalk list the off-topic discussion seems to > arise from people trying to be overly pedantic and showing off their hardcore > eliteness. Yes, I feel inferior because I'm interested in old 8/16 bitters and > I don't build my own CPUs from raw sand. ;-) > I've been on this list for several years and I get that feeling too because I'm into Unix boxes, 8/16bitters and Mac's. For me the noise I have to filter is the DEC/Big Iron discussions to get the pearls that fit my interests. But, to each their own, if we all liked the same thing there would be more competition for an ever decreasing pool of available hardware. -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Aug 28 13:02:14 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:02:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <000901c6cac7$f08ef080$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <20060828180214.4B7F658578@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Evan Koblentz > > A serious problem indeed. My personal opinion is that classiccmp's format > itself of using a plain email list is a big part of the obstacle our hobby > will soon face, re: our breed becoming extinct, if we're already on the > endangered list. For the most part I strongly prefer the simple email list, > and I think most people here agree. But communities like the web forum at > www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum and the group blog at Speaking of the Vintage Computer Forums, it got some new blood (teenagers!) recently who also attended the past VCF east. :) > http://community.livejournal.com/vintagecomputer/ are growing faster than > classiccmp, at least to my perception. Why? > I didn't know about that one... I will check it out! Cheers, Bryan From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Aug 28 13:07:02 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:07:02 +0200 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <001501c6cac9$d48c4e80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <44F3460C.4915.49F3BE00@localhost> Message-ID: <44F34CE6.2896.4A0E822C@localhost> Am 28 Aug 2006 13:46 meinte Evan Koblentz: > >>> Pentiums are by now quite fine on this list > No no no no no no no no no no no no no nooooooooooooooooooooo. :) > We need Sellam back on the list. He'll slap some sense back into you. :) Doesn't work ... you know, there are some constants of nature. One of them defines the number of simultanious active people of a certain type within a given list - with our actual seting, a reoccurance of Sallam would just rip the spacetime apart. H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 13:02:58 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:02:58 -0400 Subject: PC ist schlect In-Reply-To: <200608281036.46453.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200608281036.46453.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: > How about 10db? I now delete about 85% of the messages on this list. > > In fact, the noise level has risen on a regular basis to where I'm about to > unsubscribe... Truth be told, I have heard similar grumblings from other members of the crew - even old timers of the list. -- Will From james.rice at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 13:07:09 2006 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:07:09 -0500 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200608281758.k7SHwhOi019566@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <000701c6caa7$7452a400$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200608281758.k7SHwhOi019566@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 8/28/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Pentium and Pentium Pro systems are both on-topic. Furthermore I've seen > interesting examples of both. I'm saying this as someone who has absolutely > no interest in collecting either. As has been pointed out, systems of this > era can be useful in working with even older systems. Plus, (and this is an > area I am interested in) they can be useful for running old "dead" OS's and > old versions of "live" OS's. > > The question here becomes what do people use thier "classic" machines for? > I've actually been considering building a Windows 95 or 98SE system to play > some old games. Probably do it so it will dual boot MS-DOS. > > Another comment I saw was that a system shouldn't be here till it is no > longer useful for real work. That would make this a very small narrowly > focused list. > > The 10 year rule makes sense, especially with the "Coolness exemption". For > an example of the "coolness exemption", NeXT HW and software was defintely > off-topic on this list when it started, but no one complained about it being > discussed. Lets face it, there is some pretty cool hardware even in the > last 10 years, you start looking at everything from when this list was > started through about 10 years ago, and there is even more cool and > interesting stuff. > > If something being read doesn't interest you, fine, no one is forcing you to > read those threads! > > Zane > > Through this whole discussion, this is the post that makes the most sense to me. I took advantage of the "coolness" factor for both my NeXT's and my Sgi's until they finally fell on-topic. Otherwise, I would have never had a reason to be on the list. -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 28 13:11:46 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:11:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <1156787674.44f32dda6b75f@webmail.secure-wi.com> from "mbbrutman-cctalk@brutman.com" at Aug 28, 2006 10:54:34 AM Message-ID: <200608281811.k7SIBkAM019962@onyx.spiritone.com> > The audience at vintage-computer.com seems to be a bit different than the > audience of this list. This list is far more 'hardcore.' There is a much > wider variety of hardware being discussed and there is a lot more big iron > represented. That being said, the less 'hardcore' forums are more accessible > to the rest of the population. > > Both places have noise problems. On the web forums it is generally a 'less > professional' audience and the level of knowledge is not as deep. They also > tend to go off into the tulips quite a bit, and I'm not talking about DEC > Ethernet cards. Here on the cctalk list the off-topic discussion seems to > arise from people trying to be overly pedantic and showing off their hardcore > eliteness. Yes, I feel inferior because I'm interested in old 8/16 bitters and > I don't build my own CPUs from raw sand. ;-) > > Btw, I like the email/text nature of this list better. It serves as a higher > barrier to entry. I *only* participate in web forums where a equivalent email list, or USENET newsgroup is unavailable. I find them to be far more trouble than they are worth otherwise. Anything other than *plain text email* actually serves as a barrier. Simply put everyone can handle *plain text email*. Not everyone can handle the various "rich text" email formats, or the requirements of running a web browser capable of accessing the various web-forums. I still maintain that the WWW is one of the key reasons for most people to upgrade thier systems. Zane From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Aug 28 13:16:12 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:16:12 +0200 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <000901c6cac7$f08ef080$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <006401c6cac6$2a731bc0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <44F34F0C.14168.4A16E90D@localhost> Am 28 Aug 2006 13:32 meinte Evan Koblentz: > >>>> The way I see things you need a bridge between the present and the > distant past to get younger people interested in the hobby. Having a drop > dead cutoff at the first Intel 80x86 is only going to kill new blood from > joining because that is all they have ever used at this point. If you start > collecting 286/386 machines and join this list to talk about them the older > topics will sooner or later spark interest in something older and different. > Keeping 286/386 topics off the list will just keep people away who > eventually might have started collecting the older items they knew nothing > about at the time they joined. Why bother preserving anything when this list > and the knowledge contained here is just going to vanish after the last > pre-Intel collector dies. > A serious problem indeed. My personal opinion is that classiccmp's format > itself of using a plain email list is a big part of the obstacle our hobby > will soon face, re: our breed becoming extinct, if we're already on the > endangered list. For the most part I strongly prefer the simple email list, > and I think most people here agree. But communities like the web forum at > www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum and the group blog at > http://community.livejournal.com/vintagecomputer/ are growing faster than > classiccmp, at least to my perception. Why? I see your point - but than again, using a nice windows based, mouse klickable mailer that sorts all lists out, flags certain topics and does all the housekeeping in conjunction with an easy to use mailman run list, I must realize that we are already way down the road into decadence. And no, your self sacrifice of using Outlook doesn't make it right again. we are doomed. Serious, CC* is like mainframe business at all. Just because the small stuff (aka the WebFurumStuff) is growing to higher numbers doesn't make us obsolete - it's just the other way around - in mainframe world has never been as large as today, and it's growing (while the micro had lost it's tripple digit growth). So, don't make the same mistake like so called 'insiders' in the 80s that tried to tell us /370 is dead, and we're just dinosaurs where the head is so far away, that the nerves just need a few years to transmit the news... H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 28 13:18:23 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:18:23 -0700 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system Message-ID: > A Google > search for a specific item will show hits on the vcforum and most likely the > livejournal site you listed, but nothing would come up for an email list. classiccmp.org archives all of the mail through a web interface (which is how I QUICKLY scan over all the drek, I NEVER actually receive it as mail) and Google picks posting here just fine, thank you. From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Aug 28 13:26:54 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:26:54 -0400 Subject: Recommendations for operating system Message-ID: <01C6CAAE.F3508AE0@MSE_D03> Considering the amount of bandwidth wasted here on other OT topics (and often also on On-topic issues), it seems pretty picayune to waste even more on whether a P70 is OT or not. Much better to just let it go by than to add more dross to the pile, in my opinion. Interesting that discussions about (e.g.) whether hydrochloric acid is toxic don't trigger the same kind of response... Besides, if everyone felt that it was OT, they wouldn't reply; apparently many people thought it wasn't. However, it would be nice if words like f***ing were avoided. Just my contribution to the pile... mike From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 13:32:23 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:32:23 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <1156787674.44f32dda6b75f@webmail.secure-wi.com> References: <000901c6cac7$f08ef080$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <1156787674.44f32dda6b75f@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: > Both places have noise problems. On the web forums it is generally a 'less > professional' audience That is an interesting use of the word "professional". I find the members of this list extremely non-professional in their list conduct, and yes, it all comes down to the noise level. There are way too many people here that like to post off topic threads, or steer threads very off topic. Sure, a little happens - even I have done my bit - but not stretching out OT threads for days at a time, with dozens of messages. I am, or have been on a great deal of lists, ranging from old and new computers, old radios, military surplus, mushrooms, forts, mining, railroad junk, history, and loads of others. The people on this list are by far the worst offenders for disregarding list charters and rules. Very little self control, and too lazy to post off topic questions on the myriad of other lists that are online. Why is this? Did their mother's not teach them any manners? Do they think it is OK to bring up topics in the real world at inappropriate times? Perhaps talking politics during a football game? Or maybe talking about one's ex on a date? Or reminiscing about aged beef in a vegetarian restaurant? Also, does it not bother these people that obviously the whole OT issue has been brought up before, and generates flames and anger for many list members? Do these people not think the perhaps many folks just do not want to hear another talk about Linux or Pentiums? Do these people think they are special or clever by exploiting a loophole in the charter so they can ask about some machine that 90 percent of us find extremely boring? It is no wonder non-computer people view us as a bunch of arrogant, pasty skinned, social wastoid trogs. Because too many of us ARE. Apparently too smart and clever to have actually listened to our mother's when it came to manners. I hope this does not sound like a slam to Jay - I think he is doing a job that most of us would not (or could not) do. It is, however, a slam to more than a few lists members... -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 13:35:44 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:35:44 -0400 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200608281758.k7SHwhOi019566@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <000701c6caa7$7452a400$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200608281758.k7SHwhOi019566@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: > The profanity is neither needed, or appreciated. It does, however, show off that the topic of topicness is rather heated. It does its job. -- Will From jim.isbell at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 13:43:07 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:43:07 -0500 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: References: <000901c6cac7$f08ef080$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <1156787674.44f32dda6b75f@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: On 8/28/06, William Donzelli wrote: > It is no wonder non-computer people view us as a bunch of arrogant, Seems like the whole rant that went with this statement puts you IN THIS CATEGORY. -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 28 14:48:45 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:48:45 +0000 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: References: <000901c6cac7$f08ef080$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <1156787674.44f32dda6b75f@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <44F3489D.5000505@yahoo.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: > I am, or have been on a great deal of lists, ranging from old and new > computers, old radios, military surplus, mushrooms, forts, mining, > railroad junk, history, and loads of others. The people on this list > are by far the worst offenders for disregarding list charters and > rules. Very little self control, and too lazy to post off topic > questions on the myriad of other lists that are online. Why is this? Because we're social creatures I expect, who enjoy a bit of interaction outside of a specific topic. I can't imagine people go to VCF, say, and talk *only* about classic computers all day long - other things will sometimes crop up simply because we're human and it's natural for that to happen. -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Aug 28 14:02:06 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:02:06 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <44F3460C.4915.49F3BE00@localhost> References: <000101c6cac2$19c45040$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200608280938380453.0EA3683F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060828143837.0468d5d0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Hans Franke may have mentioned these words: >...Asking me about the 'huge' old disks and showing >complete surprise when I pulled an 8". Even having a hard time to >understand the idea of 3" disks :)) I now keep a box of 8" disks on my desk just for that purpose - even though I've never owned a computer that actually used 'em. ;-) >To conclude this (on my side), for me freedom is more important than any >pure dogma, rules are to avoide problems, not to curb freedom, and no >rule should be made just out of momentary feelings. Yes, but what if that freedom *is* the problem? One of the things that have been stated by not only the original creator of the list (anyone remember his name? Sellam; Tony; Me (yes, me - this is a trivia question after all... ;-) a handful of others, but many folks on the list only know Jay as the list-marm) and Jay both have stated that this list should never degenerate to a "WinTel support list." And also, *IMHO* any Linux kernel version newer than... say... 1.3.x is also too new to be considered "classic." If this is truly what's happening now, then I think the list won't be nearly as active (or subsequently, interesting) WRT the older machines. >And properly used (and as hard as it comes for me to advocate this), >Pentiums are by now quite fine on this list. Ah, but only Jay has the power to set policy - if he states that Pentiums are off-topic for the list, then "so geht es Ihnen."[1] [1] Auf English: "That's the way it goes." See? I still remember a [very] little of my Deutsch... :-) IMHO, what I'd like to see is a ballpark rule (15 years would be my "sweet spot") but allow/disallow families of computers if they're deemed "odd" enough to be instant classics. My Amiga (by the 10-year-rule) is still off-topic, having been built in '98. Jay? Is it time to rethink the list charter, or should we all STFU? ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Aug 28 14:14:55 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:14:55 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system Message-ID: <01C6CAB4.B9F80100@MSE_D03> ---------Original message: Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:32:30 -0400 From: "Evan Koblentz" Subject: RE: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system But communities like the web forum at www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum and the group blog at http://community.livejournal.com/vintagecomputer/ are growing faster than classiccmp, at least to my perception. Why? ---------Reply: The elitism and inflexibility seen in the current discussion perhaps? More dross on the pile... m From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 28 14:20:43 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 12:20:43 -0700 Subject: Votrax TNT, PSS, et al. "bricks" Message-ID: <44F3420B.2090505@dakotacom.net> Hi, Has anyone reverse engineered any of these products requiring *external* power supplies (bricks)? E.g., *not* the VS6.x devices but, rather, the "consumer-ish" devices mentioned in the subject line? I have several and wonder if the different models share a common power supply design. Or, if I'll have to disembowel a few of them to sort it all out. Thanks! --don From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 28 14:44:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 12:44:24 -0700 Subject: Help ID-ing DOS backup format Message-ID: <200608281244240290.0F4D7A48@10.0.0.252> Folks, I received a couple of DC6250 backup tapes this morning. While writing a program to unravel the backup format looks to be pretty simple, I'd like to know what created these beasts. They're from a Windoze box circa 1995. The "GENERATION" right at the start might be a hint. Here's a dump of the first few bytes of a tape, hex on the left, ASCII on the right: 000000 47 45 4E 45 52 41 54 49-4F 4E 20 EC E9 C6 F3 F4 GENERATION 8T?=( 000010 F4 E5 C2 20 20 70 6F 73-5F 62 61 63 6B 75 70 5F (s- pos_backup_ 000020 32 39 30 38 39 35 20 20-20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 290895 000030 20 20 20 20 20 20 31 30-3A 32 30 3A 30 31 20 33 10:20:01 3 000040 30 2F 30 38 2F 31 39 39-35 20 4E 20 20 20 0A 31 0/08/1995 N ?1 000050 30 20 31 20 20 20 20 20-20 20 20 30 30 30 30 20 0 1 0000 000060 30 30 30 30 20 43 3A 5C-0A 32 37 20 30 30 30 30 0000 C:\?27 0000 000070 39 46 34 36 20 33 32 43-30 20 31 43 42 46 20 49 9F46 32C0 1CBF I 000080 4F 2E 53 59 53 0A 32 37-20 30 30 30 30 39 34 46 O.SYS?27 000094F 000090 41 20 33 32 43 30 20 31-43 42 46 20 4D 53 44 4F A 32C0 1CBF MSDO 0000A0 53 2E 53 59 53 0A 32 30-20 30 30 30 30 44 35 37 S.SYS?20 0000D57 Anyone got an idea? It's not MSBACKUP, nor SYTOS. Thanks, Chuck From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Mon Aug 28 15:20:00 2006 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:20:00 +0200 Subject: INS8073 interface? In-Reply-To: References: <000301c6c89d$4d631e80$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> Message-ID: <44F34FF0.6070206@ais.fraunhofer.de> Ethan Dicks schrieb: > On 8/26/06, jwhitton wrote: >> On the off chance that this address is still good.., I'm seeking app. >> notes >> for the INS8073 Tiny Basic chip. > > Which app. notes? I have one here... > > http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/INS8073/ > > ... which describes a simple 1K SRAM INS8073 arrangement (I've started > to redraw it in EagleCAD, but haven't tested the circuit yet, so I > haven't published the new drawing). > > If you find any other INS8073 app notes, please let me know. I have > two (so far) INS8073-based systems - an MC-1N (documented on that > page), and an RB5X Robot. > > Fun little chip. > > Cheers, > > -ethan Hi, go to http://www.national.com/apnotes/ADC-GeneralPurpose.html and download AN-280: "A/D Converters Easily Interface with 70 series Microprocessors". You might not be interested in A/D converters themselves, but in the basic circuitry for the 8073. Regards Holger From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 15:20:42 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:20:42 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <44F3489D.5000505@yahoo.co.uk> References: <000901c6cac7$f08ef080$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <1156787674.44f32dda6b75f@webmail.secure-wi.com> <44F3489D.5000505@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > Because we're social creatures I expect, who enjoy a bit of interaction > outside of a specific topic. I can't imagine people go to VCF, say, and talk > *only* about classic computers all day long - other things will sometimes crop > up simply because we're human and it's natural for that to happen. Yes, of course. This is the reason for topic drift, even if off topic. I really do not have a problem with a thread taking a short journey into OT-land. Many times, however, these trips go far too long, and many people just do not know how to limit themselves. There have been some that have lasted for days and days. If I were to make a rule, I would say that any OT drift should only last a few messages - then it is time to kill it, take it offlist, or bring it back on topic. The larger problem of people that start OT threads, however, is something that many humans have figured out how to handle properly. Not here. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 28 15:23:32 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Help ID-ing DOS backup format In-Reply-To: <200608281244240290.0F4D7A48@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 28, 2006 12:44:24 PM Message-ID: <200608282023.k7SKNW5f023567@onyx.spiritone.com> > I received a couple of DC6250 backup tapes this morning. While writing a > program to unravel the backup format looks to be pretty simple, I'd like to > know what created these beasts. They're from a Windoze box circa 1995. > The "GENERATION" right at the start might be a hint. > > Here's a dump of the first few bytes of a tape, hex on the left, ASCII on > the right: > > 000000 47 45 4E 45 52 41 54 49-4F 4E 20 EC E9 C6 F3 F4 GENERATION PC Fastback from Fifth Generation Systems is what comes to mind. Zane From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 28 15:25:04 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200608281811.k7SIBkAM019962@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Aug 28, 6 11:11:46 am" Message-ID: <200608282025.k7SKP427015352@floodgap.com> > I *only* participate in web forums where a equivalent email list, or USENET > newsgroup is unavailable. I find them to be far more trouble than they are > worth otherwise. Seconded. I like a medium where the messages come to me, not where I have to "get" the messages (in often a completely different interface). % elm -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Now and then innocent people are sent to the legislature. ------------------ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 15:28:24 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:28:24 -0400 Subject: C64 Packet carts Message-ID: I have a pair of cartridges for the C64, headed to the trash: AEA Com Fax AEA Com Pakratt I have not looked into these, but AEA makes packet stuff for ham radio. Anyone want these things for postage? Obviously very light and small. -- Will From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Aug 28 16:25:00 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:25:00 Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <200608262207.k7QM7Q07030449@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060828162500.109f9a2c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:07 PM 8/26/06 -0500, you wrote: > > --- Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Mon, 21 Aug 2006, Don wrote: >> > I think 8.00 is the *last* that will fit on a 5" >> floppy. >> > 8.04 requires 3" floppies -- though I haven't >> checked to see if >> >> 3.5" I used 3" drives with a Compaq, but eventual >ly >> switched to 3.5" >> >> > > >Huh? 3" floppies too! > >That means there are 5 different floppy disk >sizes that I now know of: > >3" >3.5" >5" >8" >12" (used on a special Sony Laservision machine) > > >Are there any more?? Yes, 2" as used in the Zenith Mini-Sport laptops. (Reminds me. I need to dig mine out and do something with them.) Also I seem to recall that there was a 3.25" floppy but I've never seen one. Joe > > >Regards, >Andrew B >aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 28 15:46:09 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:46:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system Message-ID: <200608282046.k7SKk9f7097478@keith.ezwind.net> --- William Donzelli wrote: > > Both places have noise problems. On the web > forums it is generally a 'less > > professional' audience > > That is an interesting use of the word > "professional". I find the > members of this list extremely non-professional in > their list conduct, > and yes, it all comes down to the noise level. The re > are way too many > people here that like to post off topic threads, o r > steer threads very > off topic. Sure, a little happens - even I have do ne > my bit - but not > stretching out OT threads for days at a time, with > dozens of messages. > The > people on this list > are by far the worst offenders for disregarding li st > charters and > rules. Very little self control, and too lazy to > post off topic > questions on the myriad of other lists that are > online. Why is this? > Also, does it not bother these people > that obviously the > whole OT issue has been brought up before, and > generates flames and > anger for many list members? > > -- > Will > Sheesh. All you had to do was say a line or two, but no you had to write several paragraphs rambling on. Also, the main point of me posting, this IS CCtalk, that is designed to cover *on topic* AND *off topic* posts, so why all this fuss. If you wanted *on topic* posts ONLY then why didn't you sign up for CCtech, which only deals with *on topic* posts. If his reply was to cctech and was sent to us cctalk members, then I apologise. If that was the case then perhaps cctech members should be asked (or nudged) onto the cctalk list? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 15:50:19 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:50:19 -0400 Subject: C64 Packet carts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The C64 packet carts are spoken for. Went fast, didn't they? -- Will From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Aug 28 15:53:17 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:53:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060828162500.109f9a2c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060828162500.109f9a2c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Aug 2006, Joe R. wrote: >> --- Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> Huh? 3" floppies too! >> >> That means there are 5 different floppy disk >> sizes that I now know of: >> >> 3" >> 3.5" >> 5" >> 8" >> 12" (used on a special Sony Laservision machine) >> >> >> Are there any more?? > > Yes, 2" as used in the Zenith Mini-Sport laptops. (Reminds me. I need to > dig mine out and do something with them.) Also I seem to recall that there > was a 3.25" floppy but I've never seen one. Some Korg MIDI equipment used a 2.8" QuickDisk: http://www.keyboardmuseum.org/ar/k/korg/s/sqd1.html Some Akai samplers also used the QuickDisk. Apparently, these was also referred to as 3" diskettes, according to Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk#Mitsumi.27s_.22Quick_Disk.22_3-inch_floppies Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 15:55:42 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:55:42 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200608282046.k7SKk9f7097478@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608282046.k7SKk9f7097478@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > If his reply was to cctech and was sent to us > cctalk members, then I apologise. If that was > the case then perhaps cctech members should > be asked (or nudged) onto the cctalk list? For quite some time now there has been talk from the list owner about scrapping the two list system. Jay will probably step in to clarify this. I hope Jay steps in anyway. -- Will From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon Aug 28 15:59:21 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:59:21 -0400 Subject: C64 Packet carts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44F35929.7000908@jcwren.com> Will, If you don't get any other takers, I'll take'm. Have you thought about eBaying them? Those people will buy anything. --jc William Donzelli wrote: > I have a pair of cartridges for the C64, headed to the trash: > > AEA Com Fax > AEA Com Pakratt > > I have not looked into these, but AEA makes packet stuff for ham > radio. Anyone want these things for postage? Obviously very light and > small. > > -- > Will From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 28 16:05:34 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:05:34 -0700 Subject: "File types" Message-ID: <44F35A9E.7030909@dakotacom.net> Hi, When did the notion of "file types" creep into computing? Hmmm... poorly phrased. How about: "When did the notion of file *associations* (?) creep in?". I don't seem to recall having any problem typing: qedx myfile.mp3 or even: qedx a.out (et al.) I know Apple had "file creator" attributes that were semi-hidden (i.e. not part of the file *name*). Is the concept of a "file extension" an outgrowth of the 8.3 naming scheme? Or, does it have its roots further back? Is there any rationale for this sort of an implementation? Or, just one of convenience (i.e. "there was no other space in the dirent to store this stuff so we came up with the idea of just bastardizing the name space to accommodate it"). Since I am not fond of Hungarian notation and consider this just another variant (precursor) thereof, I wonder why it persists? Has Apple abandoned the "hidden" file creator attributes of earlier MacOS in newer OS's (e.g., OS X)? Or, have they bowed to user pressure and implemented a "me-too" scheme? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 16:17:12 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:17:12 -0400 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F35A9E.7030909@dakotacom.net> References: <44F35A9E.7030909@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: > When did the notion of "file types" creep into computing? > Hmmm... poorly phrased. How about: "When did the notion of > file *associations* (?) creep in?". Shot in the dark - from the Symbolics crowd? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 16:20:24 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:20:24 -0400 Subject: C64 Packet carts In-Reply-To: <44F35929.7000908@jcwren.com> References: <44F35929.7000908@jcwren.com> Message-ID: > If you don't get any other takers, I'll take'm. Have you thought > about eBaying them? Those people will buy anything. Well, the carts are gone. I think someone had a special "C64 packet carts" key on their keyboard just to shave off the few seconds in the response. As for Ebay - I tried selling some packet stuff over the past few months, and buyers were not much around. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 28 16:22:11 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F35A9E.7030909@dakotacom.net> from "Don" at Aug 28, 2006 02:05:34 PM Message-ID: <200608282122.k7SLMCdq025195@onyx.spiritone.com> > When did the notion of "file types" creep into computing? > Hmmm... poorly phrased. How about: "When did the notion of > file *associations* (?) creep in?". I think that this is a logical extension of a Graphical User Interface. As such Apple is likely to be the one to "blame" for it. > persists? Has Apple abandoned the "hidden" file creator > attributes of earlier MacOS in newer OS's (e.g., OS X)? > Or, have they bowed to user pressure and implemented a > "me-too" scheme? Sadly Apple went with the NeXT way of doing things with Mac OS X. There seems to be very little of the Classic Mac OS in Mac OS X. While I think that getting rid of resource forks is a good thing, was it really necessary to drop the file creator attributes? Very frequently I have files of a certain type .JPEG for example, where I want to open certain files of that type with one program, and others with another. With the file creator attributes this worked just fine. With the Microsoft & Mac OS X "one size fits all" attitude, only one app will be associated with *ALL* files with that extension. Zane From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Aug 28 16:23:31 2006 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:23:31 -0400 Subject: ebay bet pays off (Ohio Scientific) Message-ID: I have to crow a little about this... There was an auction last week of Ohio Scientific literature on ebay. I looked at it and, at first, I thought I had everything in the lot. Then I looked again and realized that I didn't recognize the little (difficult to see) pamphlet in the upper right corner of the lot photo. I thought about it for a few days and wondered whether it could be one of their first pamphlets. I decided "what the heck" I'll bid if it doesn't get too expensive. Well, I won the lot. It just arrived today and sure enough that little pamphlet is one of the first (if not the first) ad pamphlets from OSI. It introduces the original Challenger (no 1, 2, etc.) available with 6502 or 6800 processors, the original Superboard (Model 400, not the SuperboardII Model 600) and the Model 300 6502 trainer with the Superboard upgrade program (buy a fully assembled Model 300, keep it for up to two months and then trade it in for a Model 400 kit). Happy, happy, happy! -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/428 - Release Date: 8/25/2006 From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 28 16:30:55 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608282122.k7SLMCdq025195@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Aug 28, 6 02:22:11 pm" Message-ID: <200608282130.k7SLUtJQ008884@floodgap.com> > Sadly Apple went with the NeXT way of doing things with Mac OS X. There > seems to be very little of the Classic Mac OS in Mac OS X. While I think > that getting rid of resource forks is a good thing, was it really necessary > to drop the file creator attributes? Very frequently I have files of a > certain type .JPEG for example, where I want to open certain files of that > type with one program, and others with another. With the file creator > attributes this worked just fine. With the Microsoft & Mac OS X "one size > fits all" attitude, only one app will be associated with *ALL* files with > that extension. Not on HFS+ filesystems -- I can still pick an individual opener for a particular file under Get Info, even in 10.4. I would think even a UFS filesystem could emulate that. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Windows detected a gnat farting near your computer. Press any key to reboot. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 28 16:47:46 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:47:46 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608282122.k7SLMCdq025195@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608282122.k7SLMCdq025195@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <44F36482.2000704@dakotacom.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> When did the notion of "file types" creep into computing? >> Hmmm... poorly phrased. How about: "When did the notion of >> file *associations* (?) creep in?". > > I think that this is a logical extension of a Graphical User Interface. As > such Apple is likely to be the one to "blame" for it. Well, there have been "conventions" since The Dawn of Time for *naming* files. But, those have always been just *conventions* and not really "enforceable" (nor ENFORCED!). Personally, I dislike the idea of having a name carry "type" information (whether that be the name of a file, variable, procedure/method/function, etc.). My name isn't: offspring_Male_mother_Mary_father_...._Don yet, people *somehow* seem to know who I am :-/ So, I don't see why other naming *conventions* should carry all that baggage as well. >> persists? Has Apple abandoned the "hidden" file creator >> attributes of earlier MacOS in newer OS's (e.g., OS X)? >> Or, have they bowed to user pressure and implemented a >> "me-too" scheme? > > Sadly Apple went with the NeXT way of doing things with Mac OS X. There > seems to be very little of the Classic Mac OS in Mac OS X. While I think > that getting rid of resource forks is a good thing, was it really necessary > to drop the file creator attributes? Very frequently I have files of a > certain type .JPEG for example, where I want to open certain files of that > type with one program, and others with another. With the file creator > attributes this worked just fine. With the Microsoft & Mac OS X "one size > fits all" attitude, only one app will be associated with *ALL* files with > that extension. Even in the limit case (i.e. only one application exists with which you could use to "open" *all* JPEGs), is there still any reason why you need to name a file: PictureOfUsSkiing. Granted, you might have: Skiing. // i.e. photo Skiing. // i.e. spreadsheet Skiing. // i.e. invitation to ski trip ... But, they could still all be *called* "Skiing" -- with some other attribute (e.g. file creator) that actually differentiates them. So, it seems like the only reason to have that attribute *visible* is because you want your directory listing (graphical or otherwise) to be able to differentiate between the N different "Skiing" files that you might have (in that particular container). I.e. so that you could "select" (e.g., "click") the one that you are interested in. Wouldn't, instead, a better (?) scheme be to show/list all "Skiing" files as a single item and, when selected, prompt the user for which *aspect* of "Skiing" he was interested in (i.e. "Do you want to view the photo, see the expense summary or read the invitation?"). Note that this (above) is predicated on the assumption that you would *allow* name collisions (overloading based on the file name) and resolve them some other way. If this isn't allowed, then there would be no ambiguity and the user would be free to pick what he/she wants to call the file without someone imposing an artificial "file type" as part of the namespace. [N.B. *You* can get around the "file extension" problem by creating your own file type for JPGs that you would like to open with some *other* application. But, it's an inconvenience...] So, I'm still wondering *why* this came to be (hence the historical reference) From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 28 16:54:46 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:54:46 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608282130.k7SLUtJQ008884@floodgap.com> References: <200608282130.k7SLUtJQ008884@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <44F36626.8070807@dakotacom.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Sadly Apple went with the NeXT way of doing things with Mac OS X. There >> seems to be very little of the Classic Mac OS in Mac OS X. While I think >> that getting rid of resource forks is a good thing, was it really necessary >> to drop the file creator attributes? Very frequently I have files of a >> certain type .JPEG for example, where I want to open certain files of that >> type with one program, and others with another. With the file creator >> attributes this worked just fine. With the Microsoft & Mac OS X "one size >> fits all" attitude, only one app will be associated with *ALL* files with >> that extension. > > Not on HFS+ filesystems -- I can still pick an individual opener for a > particular file under Get Info, even in 10.4. > > I would think even a UFS filesystem could emulate that. Where would you hide the creator attributes? Or, are you uggesting a kludge workaround (e.g., change the "extension" to something unique; build some middleware that consults a user-maintained table of creator attributes; etc.)? From george at rachors.com Mon Aug 28 16:53:17 2006 From: george at rachors.com (George L. Rachor Jr.) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ebay bet pays off (Ohio Scientific) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060828145301.Y25154@racsys.rachors.com> Nice snag Bill! George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george at rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Mon, 28 Aug 2006, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I have to crow a little about this... There was an auction last > week of Ohio Scientific literature on ebay. I looked at it and, > at first, I thought I had everything in the lot. Then I looked > again and realized that I didn't recognize the little (difficult > to see) pamphlet in the upper right corner of the lot photo. I > thought about it for a few days and wondered whether it could be > one of their first pamphlets. I decided "what the heck" I'll > bid if it doesn't get too expensive. Well, I won the lot. It > just arrived today and sure enough that little pamphlet is one of > the first (if not the first) ad pamphlets from OSI. It introduces > the original Challenger (no 1, 2, etc.) available with 6502 or 6800 > processors, the original Superboard (Model 400, not the SuperboardII > Model 600) and the Model 300 6502 trainer with the Superboard > upgrade program (buy a fully assembled Model 300, keep it for up > to two months and then trade it in for a Model 400 kit). > > Happy, happy, happy! > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/428 - Release Date: 8/25/2006 > > From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 28 17:12:15 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F36626.8070807@dakotacom.net> from Don at "Aug 28, 6 02:54:46 pm" Message-ID: <200608282212.k7SMCFGF015262@floodgap.com> > > I would think even a UFS filesystem could emulate that. > > Where would you hide the creator attributes? Or, are you > uggesting a kludge workaround (e.g., change the "extension" > to something unique; build some middleware that consults > a user-maintained table of creator attributes; etc.)? I haven't looked into this because my Macs all use HFS+, so I don't know how Mac OS X emulates resource forks on a UFS filesystem (perhaps Zane or Doc do). However, when storing Mac files on, say, a FAT volume, a hidden folder is made to hold the additional data in the resource fork. This includes type/creator information. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- require "std_disclaimer.pl"; ----------------------------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 28 17:17:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:17:38 -0700 Subject: Help ID-ing DOS backup format In-Reply-To: <200608282023.k7SKNW5f023567@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608282023.k7SKNW5f023567@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200608281517380612.0FD9C53F@10.0.0.252> On 8/28/2006 at 1:23 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: >PC Fastback from Fifth Generation Systems is what comes to mind. Nope, just ran a PC Backup Plus 2.01 backup to see. Not at all the same. My instinct is that this is software that may have been shipped with Tandberg QIC02 SCSI drives, but that's just a guess. More hinting is that each file is preceded by a record that starts with "HEADER" and concludes with "End Header". The filename, dates and attributes all seem to be included in this header, which also (in my case) contains the string "Dataset not specified"--as well as "1.05 SCSI". Does anyone have any more guesses? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 28 17:19:28 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:19:28 -0700 Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060828162500.109f9a2c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060828162500.109f9a2c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200608281519280491.0FDB7275@10.0.0.252> On 8/28/2006 at 4:25 PM Joe R. wrote: >Also I seem to recall that there>was a 3.25" floppy but I've never seen one. Yup, the Dysan/Shugart losing venture. I've got disks and drives. Cheers, Chuck From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 28 17:27:23 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:27:23 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608282212.k7SMCFGF015262@floodgap.com> References: <200608282212.k7SMCFGF015262@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <44F36DCB.6090407@dakotacom.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> I would think even a UFS filesystem could emulate that. >> Where would you hide the creator attributes? Or, are you >> uggesting a kludge workaround (e.g., change the "extension" >> to something unique; build some middleware that consults >> a user-maintained table of creator attributes; etc.)? > > I haven't looked into this because my Macs all use HFS+, so I don't know how > Mac OS X emulates resource forks on a UFS filesystem (perhaps Zane or Doc do). > > However, when storing Mac files on, say, a FAT volume, a hidden folder is > made to hold the additional data in the resource fork. This includes > type/creator information. Ah, OK. So the OS already has provisions to handle it and hides those details from the user. I.e. it does the things I was insinuating the user would have to do, manually. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 28 17:29:51 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AIX guru consult Message-ID: <200608282229.k7SMTpWY008740@floodgap.com> Request for AIX consult. Is this a parity memory error? The unit is a PPC 604e with 512MB of parity DIMMs, just installed last week. LABEL: MACHINECHECK IDENTIFIER: 9D972716 Date/Time: Sequence Number: 968733 Machine Id: Node Id: Class: H Type: PERM Resource Name: sysplanar0 Resource Class: NONE Resource Type: NONE Location: NONE Description MACHINE CHECK Probable Causes MEMORY MEMORY CONTROLLER SYSTEM I/O BUS Failure Causes MEMORY MEMORY CONTROLLER SYSTEM I/O BUS Recommended Actions PERFORM PROBLEM DETERMINATION PROCEDURES Detail Data MACHINE CHECK STATUS 81 MEMORY LOCATION BITS 16-31 OF SRR1, MSR 9078 TIME NEXT INSTRUCTION, SSR0 0009 1ED8 MACHINE CHECK ERROR STATUS REGISTER 0000 0000 MACHINE CHECK ERROR ADDRESS REGISTER 0000 0000 -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Don't wear rollerskates to a tug-of-war. -- Larry Wall --------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 28 17:30:49 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F36DCB.6090407@dakotacom.net> from Don at "Aug 28, 6 03:27:23 pm" Message-ID: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> > > However, when storing Mac files on, say, a FAT volume, a hidden folder is > > made to hold the additional data in the resource fork. This includes > > type/creator information. > > Ah, OK. So the OS already has provisions to handle it and > hides those details from the user. I.e. it does the things > I was insinuating the user would have to do, manually. Yes, it's totally transparent. This was very nice for taking 3.5" disks between my IIsi and the DOS PCs at work back when I sneakernetted everything. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Talking about art is like dancing about architecture. -- Frank Zappa ------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 28 17:33:27 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608282212.k7SMCFGF015262@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Aug 28, 2006 03:12:15 PM Message-ID: <200608282233.k7SMXRAM026770@onyx.spiritone.com> > > > I would think even a UFS filesystem could emulate that. > > > > Where would you hide the creator attributes? Or, are you > > uggesting a kludge workaround (e.g., change the "extension" > > to something unique; build some middleware that consults > > a user-maintained table of creator attributes; etc.)? > > I haven't looked into this because my Macs all use HFS+, so I don't know how > Mac OS X emulates resource forks on a UFS filesystem (perhaps Zane or Doc do). I don't believe that resource forks are supported on UFS filesystems. I won't guarentee I'm remembering correctly though. ISTR this is why I went with HFS+. Besides we've already seen today how good my memory is with reguards to creator attributes on Mac OS X. :^) > However, when storing Mac files on, say, a FAT volume, a hidden folder is > made to hold the additional data in the resource fork. This includes > type/creator information. Various solutions like this are used on various OS's. On VMS they're stored in a MSAF$RESOURCES.DIR;1 directory. I forget how CAP and Netatalk do it on Unix. All I know is when I finally move off of OpenVMS 7.3-2 and/or Mac OS 10.3.9, I'm going to have fun cleaning up all of that from my VMS server! Upgrading either of those versions mean that my Mac will no longer be able to use Appletalk to talk to my VMS server. :^( Zane From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Aug 28 17:53:51 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:53:51 -0400 Subject: "File types" References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 6:30 PM Subject: Re: "File types" > > > However, when storing Mac files on, say, a FAT volume, a hidden folder is > > > made to hold the additional data in the resource fork. This includes > > > type/creator information. > > > > Ah, OK. So the OS already has provisions to handle it and > > hides those details from the user. I.e. it does the things > > I was insinuating the user would have to do, manually. > > Yes, it's totally transparent. This was very nice for taking 3.5" disks > between my IIsi and the DOS PCs at work back when I sneakernetted everything. > On a FAT volume the fork gets stripped away, so taking the file and putting it back on the Mac without the resource fork the Mac OS will not know what to do with it (ruins the file). From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 28 18:08:13 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:08:13 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> Teo Zenios wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cameron Kaiser" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 6:30 PM > Subject: Re: "File types" > > >>>> However, when storing Mac files on, say, a FAT volume, a hidden folder > is >>>> made to hold the additional data in the resource fork. This includes >>>> type/creator information. >>> Ah, OK. So the OS already has provisions to handle it and >>> hides those details from the user. I.e. it does the things >>> I was insinuating the user would have to do, manually. >> Yes, it's totally transparent. This was very nice for taking 3.5" disks >> between my IIsi and the DOS PCs at work back when I sneakernetted > everything. > > On a FAT volume the fork gets stripped away, so taking the file and putting > it back on the Mac without the resource fork the Mac OS will not know what > to do with it (ruins the file). Well, there seems to be some disagreement here (?) :> {I'll let you guys finesse the details...) But, that's not material to my question. I really don't care how Mac's handle different file systems, etc. My interest in them was only as an example of a system that did NOT fold "type information" into the namespace for files. Yet, it *seems* that even they are following the Lemmings (?) I've still not heard any comment on *why* (hysterically) this scheme was (apparently) replaced by one in which names convey file type information (e.g. foo.sea.hqx). Is it simply a "lowest common denominator" -- i.e. every file system (on "every" OS) supports the concept of a file NAME so that's where it *has* to go? Yet, why does it *have* to go there at all? (i.e. why does file type *need* to be part of the name -- is it just something that users have grown accustomed to?) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 28 18:18:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:18:58 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> On 8/28/2006 at 4:08 PM Don wrote: >I've still not heard any comment on *why* (hysterically) >this scheme was (apparently) replaced by one in which >names convey file type information (e.g. foo.sea.hqx). >Is it simply a "lowest common denominator" -- i.e. every >file system (on "every" OS) supports the concept of a file >NAME so that's where it *has* to go? Yet, why does it >*have* to go there at all? (i.e. why does file type >*need* to be part of the name -- is it just something >that users have grown accustomed to?) If I understand you... Unix was the first system that I'd ever seen where the file name implied a type. There are very old systems that differentiate between 'data" and "executable" files outside of the file name; it can be via attribute or "type" not part of the file. Unix is one such system--you can have a "Can't read or write, only execute" file. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 28 17:50:28 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 23:50:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <44F25165.9010302@centurytel.net> from "Choctaw Bob" at Aug 27, 6 09:13:57 pm Message-ID: > > I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic. > > I am looking for suggestions for an operating system for a PC, specs 75 > MHZ Pentium, 16 MB Ram, 4 GB HD, currently running PC-DOS Ver 7. > Original IBM PC-DOS right out of the factory sealed box. I am thinking > about putting GEM on the machine, maybe CP/M-86. Thought about GEOS, > but rejected it, too closed. > Specs seem too tight for Linux or BSD, or at least little advantage over > DOS or CP/M. > > Anyone have experience with an operating system that might work, and be > capable of useful work? This machine is a much lower spec than that (16MHx 80486, 8M RAM, 1.3G hard disk), and I'm running an older version of linux with no problems. And yes, I do useful work on it. Of course I don't run X (with a text only MDA card, I couldn't :-)). Butgcc runs fine, as does TeX. And numerous other programming tools. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 28 18:06:14 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 00:06:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <001001c6cac8$2f8d7ef0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> from "Evan Koblentz" at Aug 28, 6 01:34:16 pm Message-ID: > > Or how about just "No beige boxes!" ;) And what have you got against HP9000s ? -tony From jdaviscctalk at soupwizard.com Mon Aug 28 18:42:55 2006 From: jdaviscctalk at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64 Packet carts In-Reply-To: <200608282227.k7SMRPLh013431@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608282227.k7SMRPLh013431@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <64686.68.111.42.215.1156808575.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> On Mon, August 28, 2006 3:27 pm, William Donzelli wrote: ... > As for Ebay - I tried selling some packet stuff over the past few > months, and buyers were not much around. > > -- > Will What a coincidence - this morning I started looking into what I'd need to get into packet radio. There's a couple of hams here who'll help me out, I have no license, equipment, or anything (except computers). What packet stuff do you have available ? (reply via email, as I suspect this is OT) On-topic, though, is that I wanted to use some of my vintage computing gear to do packet radio (too bad I missed those c64 carts - that'd be a hoot!). I was trying to think of what to do with an old machine that would be productive, and packet radio popped in my head. I have an old Sun 3/80 or a Sparcstation 10 I could set up. Is there any packet software for old 68k macs (I have a clean mac II that's begging to be used for something). jdavis From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 28 18:47:33 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:47:33 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/28/2006 at 4:08 PM Don wrote: > >> I've still not heard any comment on *why* (hysterically) >> this scheme was (apparently) replaced by one in which >> names convey file type information (e.g. foo.sea.hqx). >> Is it simply a "lowest common denominator" -- i.e. every >> file system (on "every" OS) supports the concept of a file >> NAME so that's where it *has* to go? Yet, why does it >> *have* to go there at all? (i.e. why does file type >> *need* to be part of the name -- is it just something >> that users have grown accustomed to?) > > If I understand you... > > Unix was the first system that I'd ever seen where the file name implied a > type. > > There are very old systems that differentiate between 'data" and > "executable" files outside of the file name; it can be via attribute or > "type" not part of the file. Unix is one such system--you can have a > "Can't read or write, only execute" file. No, those are file *permissions*. By "type", I mean: "This is a photograph" "This is a MSWord 'document'" "This is a TIFF image" "This is a C source file" "This is a C++ header file" etc. Granted, file(1) can deduce file types of many files. I am not advocating that such a mechanism is necessary or should exist. Rather, I am asking why foo.jpg now is almost universally regarded as a JPEG photographic image, why foo.doc is an MSWord file (before MS came along, .DOC files *typically* were simple text files containing notes (DOCumentation), etc. E.g., ages ago, a *helpful*/accommodating application would automatically append a suffix to a filename that you specified on the command line (e.g., "asm foo" would be interpreted as "asm foo.src" if "foo" -- no suffix -- did not exist) but wouldn't *require/enforce* this "convention". So, I could do "asm foo.obj" if I had a perverse sense of humor *and*, as long as "foo.obj" contained valid "src code", the application would process it as such. But, nowadays, systems seem (excepting Macs?) to all tie some significance to the "extensions" tagged onto filenames. E.g., they gag on files named "MyFile", "ReadMe", etc. because they can't infer the file type from the name (lacking a suitable "extension"). It seems that this represents a net *loss* (IMHO) as now namespaces are cluttered with stuff *besides* names. And, it can screw the unwary (e.g., even CVS silently changes its behaviour in how it treats a file depending on the name assigned to that file -- CVS one would think would be very wary of dicking with a file's contents haphazzardly) From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Mon Aug 28 18:49:21 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:49:21 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: References: <001001c6cac8$2f8d7ef0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060828194432.04bfbd80@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: > > > > Or how about just "No beige boxes!" ;) > >And what have you got against HP9000s ? On the opposite end of the spectrum, my dual-core Athlon 4400+ Shuttle system is black. Would that make it ontopic? ;-) [[ Altho if I had time (which I don't) I'd like to pop DOS on it and see how quickly it'd run Jeff Vavasour's CoCo3 emulator - IIRC it was like 3x-4x faster than original hardware on my old Cyrix 6x86-133. ]] If I ever hafta reformat the hard drive I'll have to throw a small DOS partition on 'er just for giggles. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 18:52:56 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:52:56 +1200 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 8/29/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Unix was the first system that I'd ever seen where the file name implied a > type. It was common on systems I'd seen before I started using UNIX around 1984, such as RT-11 (MYPROG.SAV, MYFILE.TXT...), RSX-11 (similar examples), and even OS/8 (MYPROG.SV, MYFILE.TX...) UNIX was the second system that I ran into that didn't enforce a dot and a file extension in the name (even though many tools _respected_ extensions) - the first was the Commodore PET and descendents (VIC-20, C-64...). Nobody (that I ever saw) used extensions on tape files, and the same went for files on floppy (unless you happened to be using the Commodore Assembler, in which case, the *application* wrote files with a dot and an extension. Nevertheless, the diskette filesystem had no concept of an extension - it allowed you 16 arbitrary characters in the filename. > There are very old systems that differentiate between 'data" and > "executable" files outside of the file name; it can be via attribute or > "type" not part of the file. Unix is one such system--you can have a > "Can't read or write, only execute" file. Commodore DOS does this (starting with the model 2040 dual-5.25" diskette drive in the late 1970s[1])... there was a byte in the directory entry outside of the filename that tells the drive-based DOS what type of file (PRG for program, SEQ for a sequential data file, REL for relative (random access) data file, USR for user-defined type, and, behind the scenes, DEL for deleted data (not displayed through normal directory commands). The file types are somewhat arbitrary, in that one can save sequential data as a type PRG (by opening the file with something like 'open 1,8,1,"0:MYDATA,P"'), which might sound less than useful, but it's just the thing for a compiler to do - open a PRG-type file for writing and stuff the file full of instructions. Essentially, the only real difference between a PRG and an SEQ is that if you try to load a PRG, there'd better be a 2-byte load address at the front. I don't _think_ you can tell CBM BASIC to load an SEQ file, but if 'load "0:MYPROG,S"' works, then that's how you'd do it. One can also write a simple tool in BASIC or assembler to open the diskette, read a directory block into a buffer onboard the drive, send commands to change drive memory ("M-R"), then write the block back out to the floppy, changing the file type byte. It's not magic, and it won't break the filesystem. So that's how one "bittybox" does it... it's just part of the filesystem that you can use as intended or go around. Not everyone does it the MS-DOS or the UNIX way (RT-11 is another good counter-example for that, but I'll leave it for another time). -ethan [1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_DOS From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 18:54:34 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:54:34 -0400 Subject: C64 Packet carts In-Reply-To: <64686.68.111.42.215.1156808575.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> References: <200608282227.k7SMRPLh013431@dewey.classiccmp.org> <64686.68.111.42.215.1156808575.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> Message-ID: > What a coincidence - this morning I started looking into what I'd need to get > into packet radio. There's a couple of hams here who'll help me out, I have > no license, equipment, or anything (except computers). What packet stuff do > you have available ? (reply via email, as I suspect this is OT) Nothing anymore, I purged it out at a local hamfest. Mostly it was C64, PC, and Apple 2 based stuff. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 19:02:08 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:02:08 +1200 Subject: C64 Packet carts In-Reply-To: References: <200608282227.k7SMRPLh013431@dewey.classiccmp.org> <64686.68.111.42.215.1156808575.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> Message-ID: On 8/29/06, William Donzelli wrote: > > What a coincidence - this morning I started looking into what I'd need to get > > into packet radio. There's a couple of hams here who'll help me out, I have > > no license, equipment, or anything (except computers). What packet stuff do > > you have available ? (reply via email, as I suspect this is OT) > > Nothing anymore, I purged it out at a local hamfest. Mostly it was > C64, PC, and Apple 2 based stuff. Back in the day, I remember some VIC-20 stuff, too (since at the time the C-64 was running $400-$600, a bit too expensive to put in dedicated use, but the VIC-20 was under $100). If I had any part numbers, I'd give them; I just remember folks with VIC-20s and external TNCs at the Dayton Hamvention. Essentially, stuff for the user port should be portable between the two, like the C= RS-232 cart. ROM cartridges, though, are entirely specific to each model (totally different memory maps and physical connectors). -ethan From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Aug 28 19:17:00 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:17:00 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 36, Issue 86 Message-ID: <01C6CADF.0B0DA840@MSE_D03> ----------Original message From: Don Subject: Votrax TNT, PSS, et al. "bricks" Hi, Has anyone reverse engineered any of these products requiring *external* power supplies (bricks)? E.g., *not* the VS6.x devices but, rather, the "consumer-ish" devices mentioned in the subject line? I have several and wonder if the different models share a common power supply design. Or, if I'll have to disembowel a few of them to sort it all out. Thanks! --don ----------Reply: Coincidentally, I've got a VSS on the desk in front of me without a PS and was just investigating the same thing. There was a post here a while back very helpfully listing the pins & voltages (20VDC & 28VAC IIRC); I believe it also said that the PSs were _not_ the same for various different models. Let me know what you find pls. TNX, mike From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 28 19:16:44 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Aug 29, 6 11:52:56 am" Message-ID: <200608290016.k7T0GiZA014512@floodgap.com> > Essentially, the only real difference between a PRG and an SEQ is that if you > try to load a PRG, there'd better be a 2-byte load address at the > front. I don't _think_ you can tell CBM BASIC to load an SEQ file, but > if 'load "0:MYPROG,S"' works, then that's how you'd do it. Yes, it works fine. In fact, you can even do that with USR files with ,U, although only USR files that were OPENed and CLOSEd in the usual way. If you try to load, say, a GEOS VLIR file with that syntax, you only get the info block since the usual forward sector pointers are valid only for the first sector. For that matter, you can also SAVE with ,S or ,U. I always conceived as SEQ files as existing just to allow a distinction between textual data and executable binaries, and having only a superficial distinction from PRGs. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- From a SeaWorld funeral: a mourning of the sage of aquariums. -- Andy Pafko From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 28 19:17:33 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060828194432.04bfbd80@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "Aug 28, 6 07:49:21 pm" Message-ID: <200608290017.k7T0HXFG015354@floodgap.com> > > > Or how about just "No beige boxes!" ;) > > > >And what have you got against HP9000s ? > > On the opposite end of the spectrum, my dual-core Athlon 4400+ Shuttle > system is black. Would that make it ontopic? ;-) Or old Macs. :) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Time makes more converts than reason. -- Thomas Payne ---------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Aug 28 19:20:40 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> from Teo Zenios at "Aug 28, 6 06:53:51 pm" Message-ID: <200608290020.k7T0KeVq017256@floodgap.com> > > > > However, when storing Mac files on, say, a FAT volume, a hidden > > > > folder is > > > > made to hold the additional data in the resource fork. This includes > > > > type/creator information. > > > Ah, OK. So the OS already has provisions to handle it and > > > hides those details from the user. I.e. it does the things > > > I was insinuating the user would have to do, manually. > > Yes, it's totally transparent. This was very nice for taking 3.5" disks > > between my IIsi and the DOS PCs at work back when I sneakernetted > everything. > On a FAT volume the fork gets stripped away, so taking the file and putting > it back on the Mac without the resource fork the Mac OS will not know what > to do with it (ruins the file). Only if you don't copy it on a Mac, which is more or less what I think the original poster was talking about. If you do this on a PC, which has no concept of file forks, then I think it's obvious you'd wreck the file in that instance. If, however, you copy the file onto a FAT floppy and don't mess with it on a non-Mac system, the resource fork will still survive and other Macs can access it even though the filesystem is FAT and not HFS or HFS+. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Po-Ching Lives! ------------------------------------------------------------ From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 28 19:30:21 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:30:21 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 36, Issue 86 In-Reply-To: <01C6CADF.0B0DA840@MSE_D03> References: <01C6CADF.0B0DA840@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <44F38A9D.2090102@dakotacom.net> M H Stein wrote: >> From: Don >> Subject: Votrax TNT, PSS, et al. "bricks" >> >> Has anyone reverse engineered any of these products >> requiring *external* power supplies (bricks)? E.g., >> *not* the VS6.x devices but, rather, the "consumer-ish" >> devices mentioned in the subject line? > > Coincidentally, I've got a VSS on the desk in front of me > without a PS and was just investigating the same thing. > > There was a post here a while back very helpfully listing > the pins & voltages (20VDC & 28VAC IIRC); I believe it also > said that the PSs were _not_ the same for various different > models. > > Let me know what you find pls. The TNT uses: 26VAC (180mA) on pins 1&3 20VDC (50mA) on pin 2 GND on pin 4 The PSS uses: 19VAC (750mA) on pins 1&3 20VDC (150mA) on pin 2 GND on pin 4 The similarity is suggestive. I.e. perhaps a lossy transformer that, when loaded more heavily in the PSS (4X the current requirements) sags from the lightly loaded "26VAC" spec for the TNT to the "19VAC" spec for the PSS. Yeah, I know, "wishful thinking" but hard to come to any better conclusion without *seeing* the bricks in question. It is also conceivable that the 26VAC was deliberately lowered to 19VAC to reduce power dissipation in whatever on-board power conditioning circuitry is used in the PSS (since that extra ~0.5A would aggravate any linear regulator design therein). From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 28 19:45:02 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:45:02 -0400 Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20060828162500.109f9a2c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200608281715.46577.rtellason@gmail.com> On Monday 28 August 2006 04:53 pm, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Mon, 28 Aug 2006, Joe R. wrote: > >> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > >> > >> Huh? 3" floppies too! > >> > >> That means there are 5 different floppy disk > >> sizes that I now know of: > >> > >> 3" > >> 3.5" > >> 5" > >> 8" > >> 12" (used on a special Sony Laservision machine) > >> > >> > >> Are there any more?? > > > > Yes, 2" as used in the Zenith Mini-Sport laptops. (Reminds me. I need to > > dig mine out and do something with them.) Also I seem to recall that > > there was a 3.25" floppy but I've never seen one. > > Some Korg MIDI equipment used a 2.8" QuickDisk: > > http://www.keyboardmuseum.org/ar/k/korg/s/sqd1.html > > Some Akai samplers also used the QuickDisk. Apparently, these was also > referred to as 3" diskettes, according to Wikipedia. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk#Mitsumi.27s_.22Quick_Disk.22_3-inc >h_floppies I think I have one of those drives around here someplace, if anybody could use it... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bob099 at centurytel.net Mon Aug 28 19:48:57 2006 From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Choctaw Bob) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:48:57 -0500 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <44F2FB63.17966.48D01B20@localhost> References: <44F2FB63.17966.48D01B20@localhost> Message-ID: <44F38EF9.1000605@centurytel.net> Hans Franke wrote: >So, try to tickle a bit more >Gruss >H. >-- >VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen >http://www.vcfe.org/ > > > Thanks for the advice, I have a couple of higher end machines, thought it would be fun to see what could be done with a lower end system. Doing this on the cheap to show what can be done, about $15 including monitor so far, only freebies was the ram. Should say the harddrive was free also, pulled out of a junkyard pickup, but I could have used the original 500MB with about the same results. Useful would include word processing, spreadsheet, lite database, games, programming software. Maybe accounting, but I would not want to put critical applications on it. From alexeyt at freeshell.org Mon Aug 28 20:02:27 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 01:02:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: IBM 10SR is from what system? Message-ID: There's a mom+pop computer shop in Takoma Park, MD that likes to stick all the oldest hardware they have in their front window. The only thing they have I've never seen before is a hard disk assembly, in a clear plastic case (maybe 30cm by 50cm), 3 platers, with a warranty sticker that says IBM and 10SR. I'm curious what sort of systems these were used in. Alexey From bob099 at centurytel.net Mon Aug 28 20:22:48 2006 From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Choctaw Bob) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:22:48 -0500 Subject: Recommendations for operating system Message-ID: <44F396E8.20601@centurytel.net> My little question generated a lot more heat than I expected. I will be going with my original ideal of using DOS with GEM as the GUI. Too many acronyms there? A lot of software avaliable for DOS and GEM provides a "different" shell. OS/2 sounds interesting, I have Warp 3 in a box somewhere, with many disc to install with, want to bet that the last one or two would be bad? I am already running Linux, Win XP, and WIN 2000 on other machines, home and work. Maybe I should have asked about a Laser 128 (Apple II clone) or maybe a DecMate III? From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 28 20:30:21 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:30:21 -0500 Subject: Recommendations for operating system References: <44F396E8.20601@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <043f01c6cb0a$b64b7db0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> holy cow.... I leave for a while and the kids misbehave. I'll comment as I plow through all my backlog of emails, which may take a day or two. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 28 20:32:06 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:32:06 -0500 Subject: definitive ruling needed on OT References: <28c167c389e84e0f967f34f17a4aaff9@valleyimplants.com> <20060826121821.T61796@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <044a01c6cb0a$f1a85450$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Someone wrote.... >> I've seen it used to seemingly mean both OnTopic and OffTopic. >> Which is it? What is the abbreviation of the other term? To which someone else replied... > It also means Over Time. > and Occupational Therapy > and Owner Trained (dogs) Oh good god. This surely wasn't a real post to this list was it? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 28 20:42:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:42:01 -0700 Subject: IBM 10SR is from what system? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608281842010084.1094DFED@10.0.0.252> On 8/29/2006 at 1:02 AM Alexey Toptygin wrote: >There's a mom+pop computer shop in Takoma Park, MD that likes to stick >all >the oldest hardware they have in their front window. The only thing they >have I've never seen before is a hard disk assembly, in a clear plastic >case (maybe 30cm by 50cm), 3 platers, with a warranty sticker that says >IBM and 10SR. I'm curious what sort of systems these were used in. Shugart and a few other manufacturers used a clear plastic cover for the HDA. What size are the platters? Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 28 20:44:30 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:44:30 -0500 Subject: This is the classiccmp list References: <44EDC99B.80407@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <047901c6cb0c$ac4be960$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim Battle wrote.... > Sorry for contributing to the spam level, but you have to break an egg, > etc. I promise that if anybody replies, I won't reply to the classiccmp > list. ....snippage of stuff that shouldn't be snipped.... Right on Jim. Your sentiment is echoed by me. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 28 20:49:31 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:49:31 -0500 Subject: This is the classiccmp list References: <44EDC99B.80407@pacbell.net> <44EE0D3B.3020203@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <048201c6cb0d$614568f0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jules wrote.... > Sounds like you need to be on cctech, not cctalk. Not really, since I've posted several times that cctech will be combined along with cctalk. The split was a good idea on paper, but not in practice. I've been trying to find the time to merge the lists back in to one for some time now. But regardless of when MY time allows, I've made it clear the lists are being rejoined and people will just have to stick more closely to on-topicness. It's a common courtesy thing... meeting in the middle. And it's the only way things are going to work. J From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 28 20:55:51 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:55:51 -0500 Subject: Recommendations for operating system References: <44F25165.9010302@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <048b01c6cb0e$41948170$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Choctaw Bob" To: Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 9:13 PM Subject: Recommendations for operating system >I think that this just squeaks in as being on topic. > > I am looking for suggestions for an operating system for a PC, specs 75 > MHZ Pentium, 16 MB Ram, 4 GB HD, currently running PC-DOS Ver 7. Original > IBM PC-DOS right out of the factory sealed box. I am thinking about > putting GEM on the machine, maybe CP/M-86. Thought about GEOS, but > rejected it, too closed. Of COURSE this is on-topic. CPM? GEOS? Do you people who think this is off topic or who are clamoring for an air-tight legal definition REALLY need to split hairs that badly? Or is it just some psychological compulsion? J From river at zip.com.au Mon Aug 28 20:59:38 2006 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:59:38 +1000 Subject: MDS 225 External Disk Cable (and my view of cctalk delivery) References: <200608281829.k7SISuA8009286@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00cf01c6cb0e$c9140170$6601a8c0@riverxp> Hi, I have an Intel 225MDS with the single 8inch floppy, expansion unit and external dual 8inch floppies. I do not have the cable to attach the external drives. Does anyone have the pinouts so I can make my own cable? river PS: Oh, in regards to the comments about the delivery of cctalk information, I think it would be better to have a web site. That way you can set up various forums and threads to facilitate the searching of information and also categorise the various messages and topics. This will allow you to ignore those topics you are not interested in and focus only in your area of interest/expertise. I find the scrolling through emails to be rather archaic and doesn't make use of the modern technology/forums that are available to us. We may like our old systems, but we aren't total luddites (are we?), and there's no reason why we can't present our information in a more avdanced form. Furthermore going to a web-based system would attract more people. Sure, there will be the "wookie" factor - but this is something that has always been around, regardless of the medium. But, it will make our information more accessible and appealing to others who have similar interests, or those wishing to learn an embark on the hobby of classic computing. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.6/430 - Release Date: 28/08/2006 From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 28 21:07:22 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:07:22 -0700 Subject: Sharp PC-1211 In-Reply-To: <200608241858.k7OIw2Y5013329@mail3.magma.ca> References: <200608241858.k7OIw2Y5013329@mail3.magma.ca> Message-ID: <44F3A15A.1090505@dakotacom.net> dave06a at dunfield.com wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I've a Sharp PC-1211 with CE-122 "Printer & Cassette Interface". >> But, I'll be damned if I can figure out how to make the printer >> *work*! It advances paper when manually commanded to do so. >> But, I can't figure out how to get the 1211 to print *to* it! > > I have the RadioShack manuals for the PC-1 which is a rebadged > PC-1211 on my site - this includes the printer interface manual > which contains information about printing. Thanks, I took a peek at that and it seems to be (essentially) the same documentation that I have. :-( Obviously, something is "not quite right". I'll pull them apart and see if there's anything "obvious". (maybe fresh batteries "just in case"...) Thanks! --don From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 28 21:04:08 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:04:08 -0400 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F36482.2000704@dakotacom.net> References: <200608282122.k7SLMCdq025195@onyx.spiritone.com> <44F36482.2000704@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608282204.08735.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 28 August 2006 05:47 pm, Don wrote: > So, it seems like the only reason to have that attribute > *visible* is because you want your directory listing > (graphical or otherwise) to be able to differentiate > between the N different "Skiing" files that you might have > (in that particular container). I.e. so that you could > "select" (e.g., "click") the one that you are interested in. > > Wouldn't, instead, a better (?) scheme be to show/list all > "Skiing" files as a single item and, when selected, prompt > the user for which *aspect* of "Skiing" he was interested in > (i.e. "Do you want to view the photo, see the expense summary > or read the invitation?"). > > Note that this (above) is predicated on the assumption > that you would *allow* name collisions (overloading based on > the file name) and resolve them some other way. If this > isn't allowed, then there would be no ambiguity and the > user would be free to pick what he/she wants to call the > file without someone imposing an artificial "file type" as > part of the namespace. It's also predicated on a certain type of interaction, as in what you describe above with the _user_ selecting which one of several files would be dealt with, which I'm not entirely sure is a good thing to build into a filesystem. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Aug 28 21:05:04 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:05:04 -0500 Subject: "File types" Message-ID: IRIX seems to use some variant of the "magic number" database to assign file type in Indigo Magic. The association between the file type and default application is, however, extremely involved and obscure. I like the use of FTR, though. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 28 21:14:08 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:14:08 -0500 Subject: Recommendations for operating system References: <000701c6caa7$7452a400$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <04b801c6cb10$d02db710$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Evan wrote..... > Granted, this is the on- and off-topic list, vs. cctech as frequently (and > recently!) noted here. But having said that, and at the risk of starting > the you-know-what conversation, Well, no freaking risk... you brought it square up, teed it up, swung, and lobbed it right into the air. > I * strongly * disagree with putting > "Pentium" (or anything newer than most computers based on a 286/386) into > the on-topicness of classiccmp. I know this is supposed to be a vaguely > family-friendly list and all, but as for the fucking 10-year-rule, You know, but you'll say it anyways I see. > I say > let's fucking throw it away and never fucking bring it up again. > Chronological rules don't work because of Moore's Law. There *IS* no 10-year rule. I'm really getting tired of saying that. It's not that the very concept is wrong, it's just outdated. It doesn't work after a certain point. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 28 21:21:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:21:26 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608281921260219.10B8F6A3@10.0.0.252> On 8/28/2006 at 4:47 PM Don wrote: >No, those are file *permissions*. Are you asking, "Did any system keep file type information out of the file name?" The answer is "yes, several did". Here's part of a microcomputer floppy directory from a circa 1977 OS. Note that fiile dates show this disk was probably created around 1986 (yes, it's all in ASCII--no binary fields here): A$DIRECTORY 000000001500000016 SF 064032386 ACONFIG.SYS 000160001610000016 DV 000010199 AMT.PARTS 000170001702700017 DV 000010199 ADX85M26D03 000180004643600046 LV 000080483 AISAM.SYS 000470005814400058 SV 000080483 A$AUTOSTART 000620006201300062 PV 000080483 ARUN 000630009348700093 SV 000080483 AMTMENU 001120013036800130 OV 000010199 ALOCATE 001310014242700142 OV 000010199 A$SBA.C 001430014400000143 II 003 A$SBA.C@ 001450014800000145 MF 055 First column is the file name, the second is the file allocation and length information. The third column is the file type and the record type. S=System D=data, L=boot loader, P=profile, O=binary object, I=ISAM index, M=ISAM data (there are other types). The second characters is the type of record F=fixed, V=variable, I=index. The fourth column is the record length and the creation date. By convention, ISAM index files take the name of the data file, with an "at" sign appended, though there was no particular system requirement for this. If you enter the name of a file that didn't have the O file type, the system won't execute it. Similarly, you can't open a file with anything other than the DV attributes for text display or editing. ISAM files are handled by the ISAM manager and nothing else. You can't do ANYTHING with S or L type files, not read them, not write them directly. I've seen other systems from the 70's with this kind of directory information. However, the idea of a file extension for certain types of files was contagious--note the CONFIG.SYS (well in advance of MS-DOS). Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 28 21:41:59 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:41:59 -0500 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system References: <000101c6cac2$19c45040$6401a8c0@DESKTOP><200608280938380453.0EA3683F@10.0.0.252> <5.1.0.14.2.20060828143837.0468d5d0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <051b01c6cb14$b3d19880$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written..... > Jay? Is it time to rethink the list charter, or should we all STFU? The latter. I'm going to count to 1000 before replying further, in an effort to come down a few kelvin. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 28 21:59:06 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:59:06 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44F3AD7A.8080005@dakotacom.net> Scott Quinn wrote: > IRIX seems to use some variant of the "magic number" database to assign file type > in Indigo Magic. The association between the file type and default application is, however, > extremely involved and obscure. I like the use of FTR, though. But are these magic numbers *derived* from an examination of the file (at run/load time)? Or, are they stored *with* the file at it's time of creation? As I see it, the big win () with putting the type in the file name is that the type moves *with* the file (in almost all imagineable scenarios) whereas any scheme that stores the file type in an invisible structure would require explicit knowledge of that structure to propagate that information). (sigh) I am getting more and more convinced that this is just a consequence of "bottom feeding" in system evolution. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Mon Aug 28 22:04:01 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:04:01 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608281921260219.10B8F6A3@10.0.0.252> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> <200608281921260219.10B8F6A3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44F3AEA1.90208@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/28/2006 at 4:47 PM Don wrote: > >> No, those are file *permissions*. > > Are you asking, "Did any system keep file type information out of the file > name?" The answer is "yes, several did". Here's part of a microcomputer > floppy directory from a circa 1977 OS. Note that fiile dates show this > disk was probably created around 1986 (yes, it's all in ASCII--no binary > fields here): > > A$DIRECTORY 000000001500000016 SF 064032386 > ACONFIG.SYS 000160001610000016 DV 000010199 > AMT.PARTS 000170001702700017 DV 000010199 > ADX85M26D03 000180004643600046 LV 000080483 > AISAM.SYS 000470005814400058 SV 000080483 > A$AUTOSTART 000620006201300062 PV 000080483 > ARUN 000630009348700093 SV 000080483 > AMTMENU 001120013036800130 OV 000010199 > ALOCATE 001310014242700142 OV 000010199 > A$SBA.C 001430014400000143 II 003 > A$SBA.C@ 001450014800000145 MF 055 > > First column is the file name, the second is the file allocation and length > information. The third column is the file type and the record type. > S=System D=data, L=boot loader, P=profile, O=binary object, I=ISAM index, > M=ISAM data (there are other types). The second characters is the type of > record F=fixed, V=variable, I=index. The fourth column is the record > length and the creation date. By convention, ISAM index files take the > name of the data file, with an "at" sign appended, though there was no > particular system requirement for this. > > If you enter the name of a file that didn't have the O file type, the > system won't execute it. Similarly, you can't open a file with anything > other than the DV attributes for text display or editing. ISAM files are > handled by the ISAM manager and nothing else. You can't do ANYTHING with S > or L type files, not read them, not write them directly. > > I've seen other systems from the 70's with this kind of directory > information. However, the idea of a file extension for certain types of > files was contagious--note the CONFIG.SYS (well in advance of MS-DOS). Yes, I *know* this has been done other ways in the past. What I am trying to figure out is the rationale behind why it has (apparently) migrated into the file *name*. Valid (though silly!) arguments could include things like: - portability (file system independance) - efficiency (no need to have extra atributes *in* the file) - The Evil Empire couldn't come up with anything more original - "Just Because" I.e. if you were starting from scratch *today*, why would you chose to encode file types in file names? vs. some other alternative?? From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 28 22:00:20 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:00:20 -0500 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system References: Message-ID: <052401c6cb17$44690f20$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote.... >> Or how about just "No beige boxes!" ;) > > And what have you got against HP9000s ? Tony's comment brings to light the obvious fact as to how difficult it is to come up with a coherent definition of what's on-topic. No matter what you come up with, someone can punch lots of holes in it. Of course, I've seen many here (not referring to Tony) on the list jump in and suggest criteria and then poke holes in their own suggestion themselves. Seems like trolling to me... or perhaps just wanting to hear/see yourself opine/type. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 28 22:11:06 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:11:06 -0500 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system References: <000901c6cac7$f08ef080$6401a8c0@DESKTOP><1156787674.44f32dda6b75f@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <055801c6cb18$c53200c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote.... >> It is no wonder non-computer people view us as a bunch of arrogant, > > Seems like the whole rant that went with this statement puts you IN > THIS CATEGORY. This, absolutely - clearly - and unequivocally, should have been sent off-list. Jay From brain at jbrain.com Mon Aug 28 22:10:19 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:10:19 -0500 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44F3B01B.20109@jbrain.com> Tony Duell wrote: > This machine is a much lower spec than that (16MHx 80486, 8M RAM, 1.3G > hard disk), and I'm running an older version of linux with no problems. > And yes, I do useful work on it. > > Of course I don't run X (with a text only MDA card, I couldn't :-)). > Butgcc runs fine, as does TeX. And numerous other programming tools. > > -tony > Sitting right next to me is a IBM PC110 (486SX-33/8MB RAM, 2GB PCMCIA Type II DASD 640x480 dual scan LCD) running Slackware 10, and it'll even bring up X. Built around 1995/6, imported from Japan. It works fine, and even has a D-Link 650 Wifi card (I got lucky, as the PCMCIA slots in the unit are 5V only, and few PrismII cards will work), so I can do my computing in cord-free bliss. The coolness factor of this little box (I believe it still holds claim to the smallest PC laptop) and the age hopefully puts it on-topic. It even has a tiny little docking station for it. At one point, in it's lifetime, it ran Win95OSR2, NT, and Linux 2.0, though it only does MSDOS, PC-DOS, and Linux 2.4 now. Jim From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Aug 28 22:14:27 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 23:14:27 -0400 Subject: On Topic: PDP-11/34 FP11-A board question Message-ID: <200608282314.28044.pat@computer-refuge.org> So I picked up an FP11-A this week. Looks like it might need some over-the-top connectors to hook it up to my 11/34 (whenever I get that all put together...). Anyone have any idea what I need as far as connectors/cables/etc and what exactly it hooks to in the CPU cardset/backplane? Thanks, Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 28 22:18:03 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060828162500.109f9a2c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060828162500.109f9a2c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20060828200234.K96581@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006, Joe R. wrote: > At 05:07 PM 8/26/06 -0500, you wrote: > > --- Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Mon, 21 Aug 2006, Don wrote: Although mine is the only intact email address in this, very little of it is mine > Yes, 2" as used in the Zenith Mini-Sport laptops. (Reminds me. I need to > dig mine out and do something with them.) Also I seem to recall that there > was a 3.25" floppy but I've never seen one. Yes, there were multiple 2", multiple 2.5", and multiple 2.9". 3" was Amstrad, Amdek, first Gavilans and a few others. 3.25" was the format that Dysam bet the company on and lost. At VCF 2000? I gave a way a few dozen of those disks. I have more, but I don't know where they are. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 28 22:30:48 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20060828162500.109f9a2c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20060828202619.E96581@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006, Mike Loewen wrote: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk#Mitsumi.27s_.22Quick_Disk.22_3-inch_floppies There are some trivial errors in that article, but MOST of it is correct; be careful about relying wikipedia for accuracy. Does anybody know WHICH bar the bar napkin sized disk is based on? I want a napkin from that bar! >From the wikipedia article: "In 1976 two of Shugart Associates's employees, Jim Adkisson and Don Massaro, were approached by An Wang of Wang Laboratories, who felt that the 8-inch format was simply too large for the desktop word processing machines he was developing at the time. After meeting in a bar in Boston, Adkisson asked Wang what size he thought the disks should be, and Wang pointed to a napkin and said "about that size". Adkisson took the napkin back to California, found it to be 5.25 inches (13 cm) wide, and developed a new drive of this size storing 98.5 kB later increased to 110 kB by adding 5 tracks.[2] This is believed to be the first standard computer media that was not promulgated by IBM." From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 28 22:33:14 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:33:14 -0500 Subject: Recommendations for operating system References: <01C6CAAE.F3508AE0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <059901c6cb1b$dcbeb8c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Mike wrote.... > Besides, if everyone felt that it was OT, they wouldn't reply; BAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 28 22:42:04 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060828204033.E96581@shell.lmi.net> > > Or how about just "No beige boxes!" ;) On Tue, 29 Aug 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > And what have you got against HP9000s ? . . . and the Morrow CP/M machines, the beige Osborn, Lobo, Apple][, . . . From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Aug 28 23:53:19 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:53:19 -0700 Subject: On Topic: PDP-11/34 FP11-A board question In-Reply-To: <200608282314.28044.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200608282314.28044.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200608282153.19911.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 28 August 2006 20:14, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > So I picked up an FP11-A this week. Looks like it might need some > over-the-top connectors to hook it up to my 11/34 (whenever I get that all > put together...). > > Anyone have any idea what I need as far as connectors/cables/etc and what > exactly it hooks to in the CPU cardset/backplane? You need a H8822 over-the-top (OTT) connector. It is similar to the OTT connector that jumps between the two CPU cards - only with another "leg" that jumps to the FP11-A. Be sure to read the following before installing: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/EK-FP11A-UG-001.pdf Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 29 00:00:53 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:00:53 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F3AEA1.90208@dakotacom.net> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> <200608281921260219.10B8F6A3@10.0.0.252> <44F3AEA1.90208@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608282200530879.114AF2D0@10.0.0.252> On 8/28/2006 at 8:04 PM Don wrote: >Yes, I *know* this has been done other ways in the past. >What I am trying to figure out is the rationale behind >why it has (apparently) migrated into the file *name*. Unix, ISIS, CP/M MS-DOS...all have been more popular than the other alternatives, and they strongly influence thinking. As far as I can tell, we're still in a state of devolution. I can go you one better and ask why is there no system record management facility that standardizes file structure? Heaven knows, mainframes had such a notion. But "modern" (read: microcomputer) operating systems tread files as amorphous blobs. You want to structure a file some way, it's up to you and no business of the operating system--that, aside from certain program file structures doesn't care. A binary file displays garbage in a text editor? Who cares? The operating system certainly didn't tell you that "you don't want to do that". One sees this in data conversion frequently. You have a file, generated by some long-forgotten application with no obvious structure--just lots of bits. Now, figure out what it means.... Cheers, Chuck From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Tue Aug 29 00:34:04 2006 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 06:34:04 +0100 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F3AEA1.90208@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <003d01c6cb2c$bdc37260$655b2c0a@w2kdell> > Yes, I *know* this has been done other ways in the past. > What I am trying to figure out is the rationale behind > why it has (apparently) migrated into the file *name*. That, I think, was a necessary side effect of the original Unix design decision that "a file is a sequence of characters" without special propertis that are known to the operating system. As has been pointed-out DEC operating sytems going batck to DOS/BATCH 11 and probably earlier have used the (then) 6.3 convention. What might not be so well known is that for most mainframe operating systems of the era a lot of attributes of a file were stored, maintained, and _enforced_ by the operating system. This was especially true of the GECOS (later GCOS) system that the Bell labs people knew all to well. So, as far as the OS was concerned, files might be serial, sequential, indexed sequential, random (and perhaps other organisations) with fixed or variable record sizes. (see the DCB card in OS360 JCL); there may be a complex set of access permissions (not just read/write/modify, or even access control list, but possibly password-controlled access or time of day limited also); and there probably also are a large set of backup options as well. These could make if very difficult, for example, to write a COBOL program whose output was source for the FORTRAN compiler [and even harder to do the reverse - COBOL, at least, could probably handle most file types) Andy From rtellason at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 16:15:46 2006 From: rtellason at gmail.com (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:15:46 -0400 Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20060828162500.109f9a2c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200608281715.46577.rtellason@gmail.com> On Monday 28 August 2006 04:53 pm, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Mon, 28 Aug 2006, Joe R. wrote: > >> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > >> > >> Huh? 3" floppies too! > >> > >> That means there are 5 different floppy disk > >> sizes that I now know of: > >> > >> 3" > >> 3.5" > >> 5" > >> 8" > >> 12" (used on a special Sony Laservision machine) > >> > >> > >> Are there any more?? > > > > Yes, 2" as used in the Zenith Mini-Sport laptops. (Reminds me. I need to > > dig mine out and do something with them.) Also I seem to recall that > > there was a 3.25" floppy but I've never seen one. > > Some Korg MIDI equipment used a 2.8" QuickDisk: > > http://www.keyboardmuseum.org/ar/k/korg/s/sqd1.html > > Some Akai samplers also used the QuickDisk. Apparently, these was also > referred to as 3" diskettes, according to Wikipedia. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk#Mitsumi.27s_.22Quick_Disk.22_3-inc >h_floppies I think I have one of those drives around here someplace, if anybody could use it... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Aug 28 19:14:56 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:14:56 -0400 Subject: "File types" Message-ID: <0J4Q00FDKGJINFWK@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: "File types" > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:52:56 +1200 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 8/29/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Unix was the first system that I'd ever seen where the file name implied a >> type. For me it was OS8 and later tops 10. By RT11 and CP/M the idea that COM, .TXT, .DOC and .ASM were fully embedded. And even CP/M apps were somewhat sensitized... Ever type A:ASM FOO.ASM and wonder why you got a disk specification error? Allison From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Aug 29 01:05:18 2006 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:05:18 +0200 Subject: On Topic: PDP-11/34 FP11-A board question In-Reply-To: <200608282314.28044.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: >From: Patrick Finnegan >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: On Topic: PDP-11/34 FP11-A board question >Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 23:14:27 -0400 > >So I picked up an FP11-A this week. Looks like it might need some >over-the-top connectors to hook it up to my 11/34 (whenever I get that all >put together...). > >Anyone have any idea what I need as far as connectors/cables/etc and what >exactly it hooks to in the CPU cardset/backplane? > >Thanks, > >Pat >-- >Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ >The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org Check my website (www.pdp-11.nl) and open the 11/34A folder. If you have an 11/34 you cannot use the FP11-A, you must have the 11/34A board set. You'll see that you need two OTTs. They were available on eBay last week. ISTR the seller was "sammyslave", but I am not sure. - Henk, PA8PDP _________________________________________________________________ 500 foto's per maand uploaden, GRATIS! http://spaces.live.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 29 01:27:41 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 23:27:41 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <0J4Q00FDKGJINFWK@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J4Q00FDKGJINFWK@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200608282327410799.119A6A0D@10.0.0.252> On 8/28/2006 at 8:14 PM Allison wrote: >And even CP/M apps were somewhat sensitized... Ever type A:ASM FOO.ASM and >wonder why you got a disk specification error? Yeah, but ASM was just trying to get away with using a single FCB to specify all three files. So you get A:ASM FOO.AAZ or some such to do what you want. ASM is an aberration. That's another thing--command syntax that's definitely from the mini/micro convention. Up until CP/M, I'd always done something like ASM IN=FOO OBJECT=FOO2 LIST=FOO3 I really DON'T like switch-type command-line structure. OT tidbit: With CDC 6000 FORTRAN the idea was that the compiler would read the first statement of the inpjut then determine what needed to be done. Most newbies were puzzled by it being called RUN. But you could stack COMPASS assembly or FORTRAN source in your input deck and simply say "RUN." AFAIK, it was never extended to other languages, but it was pretty neat. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 29 01:31:41 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 23:31:41 -0700 Subject: 10 Year Rule In-Reply-To: <04b801c6cb10$d02db710$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000701c6caa7$7452a400$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <04b801c6cb10$d02db710$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: At 9:14 PM -0500 8/28/06, Jay West wrote: >There *IS* no 10-year rule. I'm really getting tired of saying that. >It's not that the very concept is wrong, it's just outdated. It >doesn't work after a certain point. When was the 10 year rule revoked? The following has had the unrelated portions removed. It is from 9 months after the list was formed, I don't appear to have an older copy of the FAQ, but I'm not sure how complete my '97 archives are. I'm pretty sure the 10 year definition dates back to the beginning, I know it was in place 3 months after the list was formed. If people are interested, I can post the entire 12/10/97 version of the FAQ. And yes, by posting this, I can probably be considered to be breaking 2.8 below. As I've said on numerous occasions, I feel very strongly that the 10 year rule is a good idea. Sure things certain people get all huffy about and feel sully the "purity" of the list become "on-topic", but so to do many cool things. There are most definitely some *very* cool systems that are less than 10 years old. Are people trying to say that they should never be technically "on-topic"? Zane ============================================================================= ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List Part 2 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy List Specific FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.6.3 Last Update: 12/10/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are often better handled in private e-mail ;) 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? Uh, why not? There are lots of people who love these old machines and it seems like a fun idea to get together and talk about them. 1.3 What is a Classic Computer? _Any computer_ that has not been manufactured for 10 years is a classic. This definition is one I made up and it's entirely arbitrary. It seems to work OK, so I've kept it. This definition has come under fire recently but remains the guideline. Remember that it is certainly flexible. The idea is to keep conversation on track, not to restrict what you can talk about. 2.1 What can I talk about? Anything related to classic computers as defined above. There are many people on this list that really know what they're talking about, so you might want to check facts before you start shooting off messages. It's also a good idea to actually read the FAQs and check the archives a little before posting. 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? Yes. PCs which haven't been manufactured for 10 years. Even then, be aware that in many cases you would get a better response posting to PC newsgroups. 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?! (Or, in general, be unreasonable with reagard to advocacy posts?) Check your anti-MS baggage at the door, please. For that matter, drop any posts that serve only to perpetuate the holy wars. -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 29 01:38:36 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 02:38:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608290649.CAA09130@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Unix was the first system that I'd ever seen where the file name >> implied a type. > By "type", I mean: > "This is a photograph" > "This is a MSWord 'document'" > "This is a TIFF image" > "This is a C source file" > "This is a C++ header file" I don't think Unix file names imply types, though for some types they do imply default types. (Or, to put it another way, they imply types in an advisory, not mandatory, sense.) (And yes, I realize the above quotes are not from the same person. In fact, the one looks like a response to the other.) > E.g., ages ago [...] I could do "asm foo.obj" if I had a perverse > sense of humor *and*, as long as "foo.obj" contained valid "src > code", the application would process it as such. > But, nowadays, systems seem (excepting Macs?) to all tie some > significance to the "extensions" tagged onto filenames. E.g., they > gag on files named "MyFile", "ReadMe", etc. because they can't infer > the file type from the name (lacking a suitable "extension"). This does not describe any even vaguely Unixish system in my experience. All of them handle such things just fine - indeed, I have a number of plain text documentation files named something.doc on my home machines. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Aug 29 01:59:44 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 01:59:44 -0500 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608290649.CAA09130@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> <200608290649.CAA09130@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44F3E5E0.9010705@mdrconsult.com> der Mouse wrote: >>>Unix was the first system that I'd ever seen where the file name >>>implied a type. > > > I don't think Unix file names imply types, though for some types they > do imply default types. (Or, to put it another way, they imply types > in an advisory, not mandatory, sense.) > This does not describe any even vaguely Unixish system in my > experience. All of them handle such things just fine - indeed, I have > a number of plain text documentation files named something.doc on my > home machines. Some builds of GNU gzip will indeed hurl on a file not named to its taste. Note that I'm *not* disagreeing with you. As far as I'm concerned that behavior breaks all kinds of conventions. But it is a fact. Doc From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 29 01:59:59 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 02:59:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608281921260219.10B8F6A3@10.0.0.252> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> <200608281921260219.10B8F6A3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608290702.DAA09205@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Are you asking, "Did any system keep file type information out of the > file name?" The answer is "yes, several did". This puts me in mind of VMS, which had fairly rich file structure. I recall fumbling about with CONVERT /FDL on occasion. It had things like record-based files and even much (most? all?) of what today I'd call ISAM available in the filesystem.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 29 02:02:53 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 03:02:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F3AEA1.90208@dakotacom.net> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> <200608281921260219.10B8F6A3@10.0.0.252> <44F3AEA1.90208@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608290708.DAA09248@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Are you asking, "Did any system keep file type information out of >> the file name?" The answer is "yes, several did". [...] > Yes, I *know* this has been done other ways in the past. What I am > trying to figure out is the rationale behind why it has (apparently) > migrated into the file *name*. Well, I would point out that it moved into the name before it moved out of the filesystem. VMS (see my previous note) not only had a fairly rich set of file types in-filesystem, but also had naming conventions to go with them (which in my experience were mostly just conventions, ie, advisory). I don't know why this was. I conjecture that it was done so that the type, or at least a decent approxmation to the type, would be available to a human looking at a directory listing. One could say that this could have been done by printing type information in directory listings, but that misses the point that conceptual file types were not 1:1 with filesystem file types - as a simple example, the filesystem type information for a plain text doc file and a FORTRAN source file might well be exactly the same. > I.e. if you were starting from scratch *today*, why would you chose > to encode file types in file names? vs. some other alternative?? I'm not sure I would choose to. If I did, though, a large part of why would be that humans are used to it. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 29 02:10:06 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 03:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F3E5E0.9010705@mdrconsult.com> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> <200608290649.CAA09130@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44F3E5E0.9010705@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200608290712.DAA09312@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> This does not describe any even vaguely Unixish system in my >> experience. All of them handle such things just fine - indeed, I >> have a number of plain text documentation files named something.doc >> on my home machines. > Some builds of GNU gzip will indeed hurl on a file not named to its > taste. Note that I'm *not* disagreeing with you. As far as I'm > concerned that behavior breaks all kinds of conventions. But it is a > fact. Yes...but I see that as a property of gzip, not a property of the OS. (Indeed, that it could be changed by changing nothing but gzip is, to me, evidence that it is *not* in the OS.) Unless, I suppose, you consider the OS to include gzip. I don't, at least not when discussing filesystem typing. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 29 02:12:29 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 03:12:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 10 Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: <000701c6caa7$7452a400$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <04b801c6cb10$d02db710$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200608290716.DAA09355@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> There *IS* no 10-year rule. [...] > When was the 10 year rule revoked? Gradually over the last few years, based on my own experience of the list. > As I've said on numerous occasions, I feel very strongly that the 10 > year rule is a good idea. I don't. Something with fuzzy boundaries, somewhat like the 10-year rule, is, but the 10-year rule, as stated, errs too much in both directions (examples aplenty upthread) for me to be comfortable with it in any form that sounds even the least bit doctrinaire. This kind of kafuffle is exactly why. If you must have an easy-to-state rule, I'd much prefer the form given upthread that was something like "anything well outside the current computing mainstream". Even that, though, seems to me to err enough (in both directions) to be problematic. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Aug 29 02:24:02 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 02:24:02 -0500 Subject: AIX guru consult In-Reply-To: <200608282229.k7SMTpWY008740@floodgap.com> References: <200608282229.k7SMTpWY008740@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <44F3EB92.1090100@mdrconsult.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Request for AIX consult. Is this a parity memory error? Possibly, but it looks to me more like that set of addresses failed to respond at all. Bad chip or bad socket. > The unit is a PPC 604e with 512MB of parity DIMMs, just installed last week. IBM-approved RAM? In my experience with the 604 family, installing memory that's not approved FRUs is extremely likely to be a problem. Doc From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Aug 29 04:29:29 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:29:29 +0200 Subject: PC ist schlect In-Reply-To: References: <200608281036.46453.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <44F42519.21474.4D5B09E1@localhost> Am 28 Aug 2006 14:02 meinte William Donzelli: > > How about 10db? I now delete about 85% of the messages on this list. > > In fact, the noise level has risen on a regular basis to where I'm about to > > unsubscribe... > Truth be told, I have heard similar grumblings from other members of > the crew - even old timers of the list. I think size may play a part here: as more people are arround, and especialy as less homogenus (read not just oldtimers) it gets, as higher the content climbs on the personal noise index. I learned long ago to ignore certain topics. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Aug 29 06:12:26 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 06:12:26 -0500 Subject: Sharp PC-1211 In-Reply-To: <44F3A15A.1090505@dakotacom.net> References: <200608241858.k7OIw2Y5013329@mail3.magma.ca> Message-ID: <200608291015.k7TAFu8n002746@hosting.monisys.ca> > >> I've a Sharp PC-1211 with CE-122 "Printer & Cassette Interface". > >> But, I'll be damned if I can figure out how to make the printer > >> *work*! It advances paper when manually commanded to do so. > >> But, I can't figure out how to get the 1211 to print *to* it! > > > > I have the RadioShack manuals for the PC-1 which is a rebadged > > PC-1211 on my site - this includes the printer interface manual > > which contains information about printing. > > Thanks, I took a peek at that and it seems to be (essentially) > the same documentation that I have. :-( > > Obviously, something is "not quite right". I'll pull them > apart and see if there's anything "obvious". (maybe fresh batteries > "just in case"...) IIRC the printer interface has an internal reghargable battery - It would not surprise me if this battery is "an integral part of the power supply", and if it has died (likely unless you've replaced it) the unit may not work at all - just a guess. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 29 06:12:32 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:12:32 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <000901c6cac7$f08ef080$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000901c6cac7$f08ef080$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <99d786e8f5176eef8c41d164412fa12b@neurotica.com> On Aug 28, 2006, at 1:32 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > My personal opinion is that classiccmp's format > itself of using a plain email list is a big part of the obstacle our > hobby > will soon face, re: our breed becoming extinct, if we're already on the > endangered list. There is no way I'd ever believe that. More people are becoming email-enabled every day. Sure, most people are (stupidly) doing it with a web browser, but email is certainly not going to be replaced with web forums anytime soon. They serve completely different purposes and one cannot replace the other. > For the most part I strongly prefer the simple email list, > and I think most people here agree. But communities like the web > forum at > www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum and the group blog at > http://community.livejournal.com/vintagecomputer/ are growing faster > than > classiccmp, at least to my perception. Why? Because, being web pages, they're easier to "stumble onto" whilst idly surfing with a browser. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Tue Aug 29 07:06:25 2006 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:06:25 +0100 Subject: C64 item, also Re: and my view of cctalk delivery) In-Reply-To: <00cf01c6cb0e$c9140170$6601a8c0@riverxp> References: <200608281829.k7SISuA8009286@dewey.classiccmp.org> <00cf01c6cb0e$c9140170$6601a8c0@riverxp> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20060829125758.057a9238@irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk> Just heard a note that there is an item about the Commodore 64 on the BBC You and Yours programme tomorrow lunchtime. If you can't get Radio 4, you can listen via the website (live and past programmes, so fine if you miss it) http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/ As for: At 02:59 29/08/2006, river wrote: >Oh, in regards to the comments about the delivery of cctalk >information, I think it would be better to have a web site. Noooo... I forget how many web based forums I am a member of, and I barely ever check any of them. Except the few that give me an RSS feed which I have subscribed to and so appear to me just like an email list anyway... I don't read more than 10% of the emails that come in via cctalk, since my area of interest is pretty much BBC Micros, and doesn't encompass Big Iron (with the sole exception that I used to use a number of VAX's 20 years ago, so do read a few items on those.) but I don't mind. I just scan the subjects and dip in when things look interesting. TBH, I almost prefer the off-topic banter than I do the non-relevant stuff that just goes over my head. Basically, email reaches me. Websites I would have to go and look at, which I don't. Rob From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 29 07:19:29 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:19:29 -0500 Subject: 10 Year Rule References: <000701c6caa7$7452a400$6401a8c0@DESKTOP><04b801c6cb10$d02db710$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <00a001c6cb65$cf1b0df0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Zane wrote.... > When was the 10 year rule revoked? Apparently my many posts on this over the past few years were missed. Ok, for your benefit, consider the revocation date 8/29/06. > I'm pretty sure the 10 year definition dates back to the beginning, I know > it was in place 3 months after the list was formed. When it was created has little bearing on when it was retired or it's relevance today. > There are most definitely some *very* cool systems that are less than 10 > years old. Sure there is. "Cool" doesn't necessarily mean on-topic though. There's probably lists on the internet somewhere that they can be discussed. Jay From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Aug 29 07:45:27 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:45:27 +0200 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <04b801c6cb10$d02db710$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <44F45307.8344.4E0E74AA@localhost> Am 28 Aug 2006 21:14 meinte Jay West: > Evan wrote..... > > I say > > let's fucking throw it away and never fucking bring it up again. > > Chronological rules don't work because of Moore's Law. > There *IS* no 10-year rule. I'm really getting tired of saying that. It's > not that the very concept is wrong, it's just outdated. It doesn't work > after a certain point. Well, at the time I signed up to this list - and that's like more than five years ago, there was this rule, and it never got modified - course not, since it's one of the basics of this list. If someone likes a list without this rule, it would be best to open up his own. The 10 year rule is a great concept of benchmarking for easy judgeing. Ans just because we oldtimer see anything after 1980 as modern unworthy stuff, it doesn't mean it realy is. Time is moveing ahead and new stuff becomes old and 'classic' to new people. Just think of 70s and 80s cars. To me, they have no classic apeal at all, but there is already a collector scene. Come on, a 1978 Golf, or similar is just good to be used as scrap metal for new cars - well, they are collectors items! One needs to accept the fact that time moves on. The worst to do is to set fixed dates - that's a shure way to become a sidenote in history. So, let's stay with the great list we have. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Aug 29 07:54:03 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:54:03 +0200 Subject: 10 Year Rule In-Reply-To: <00a001c6cb65$cf1b0df0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <44F4550B.21955.4E1652C4@localhost> Am 29 Aug 2006 7:19 meinte Jay West: > Zane wrote.... > > When was the 10 year rule revoked? > Apparently my many posts on this over the past few years were missed. Ok, > for your benefit, consider the revocation date 8/29/06. Now, hold the horses. Has there been something I missed? Like some putsch? So, who is the ruler that gave us the revocation of our basic rule, right today? > > I'm pretty sure the 10 year definition dates back to the beginning, I know > > it was in place 3 months after the list was formed. > When it was created has little bearing on when it was retired or it's > relevance today. Sounds like some people might think about the constitution. SCNR, but that rule is the very basic definition of this list. And it worked quite fine for a long time. > > There are most definitely some *very* cool systems that are less than 10 > > years old. > Sure there is. "Cool" doesn't necessarily mean on-topic though. There's > probably lists on the internet somewhere that they can be discussed. Which is exatly what this list is ment to be. I strongly suggest that, if someone wants a differnent list, he or she should go ahead and open up such, but not try to fiddle with CC. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Aug 29 07:58:34 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:58:34 +0200 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <052401c6cb17$44690f20$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <44F4561A.29658.4E1A753C@localhost> Am 28 Aug 2006 22:00 meinte Jay West: > Tony wrote.... > >> Or how about just "No beige boxes!" ;) > > And what have you got against HP9000s ? > Tony's comment brings to light the obvious fact as to how difficult it is to > come up with a coherent definition of what's on-topic. No matter what you > come up with, someone can punch lots of holes in it. Well, isn't that the best argumentation that it is impossible to come up with a stone hard definition, and that the old 10 year rule (with its first amandmend of coolness) is a great guideline that gives a standard but leaves all freedom to the people? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 29 09:23:56 2006 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 10 Year Rule In-Reply-To: <44F4550B.21955.4E1652C4@localhost> Message-ID: <20060829142357.2071.qmail@web52708.mail.yahoo.com> > > > When was the 10 year rule revoked? > > Ok, for your benefit, consider the revocation date 8/29/06. > > Now, hold the horses. Has there been something I > missed? Yeah, I believe I missed that one too - I thought that the 10 year rule was one of the most basic parts of the list. What, are we just changing it now because some people get all huffy just because the Pentium 166 is technically on-topic based on that philosophy? What happened to the whole "having fun with old technology" part of this list? I am beginning to remember why I wasn't subscribed for a couple years. I've been lurking now, but haven't really wanted to "step up" and say anything - it's not the fun, friendly atmosphere I remember from way back when. That, and I don't think anyone particularly cares to hear about me and my Prime computers... They're not DEC, you see. > And it worked quite fine for a long time. I thought so. > > > There are most definitely some *very* cool systems that are less than 10 years old. Agreed, but they still woudn't/shouldn't be on-topic for a classic computer list. Not that it stops anyone - but still, even so, I thought the whole point of this list was to unite people with similar interests and mindsets. If someone finds a Sun Ultra 10 and wants to ask a question, this should still be a friendly environment - I mean, a lot of us work with or on hardware that is considerably newer than 10 years old. Just flagging the message in the header as OT should be enough to keep the flames down, provided that the OT posts don't overrun the list *cough*. Come on - what ever happened to fun with old computers, fixing stuff, and using enough juice to power a city block just to play Hunt the Wumpus? Have fun - lighten up, and never post when you're ticked off - I'm in a good mood, and you should be too. :) -Ian From jplist at kiwigeek.com Tue Aug 29 09:34:01 2006 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 09:34:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: IBM 10SR is from what system? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Aug 2006, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > There's a mom+pop computer shop in Takoma Park, MD that likes to stick all > the oldest hardware they have in their front window. The only thing they > have I've never seen before is a hard disk assembly, in a clear plastic > case (maybe 30cm by 50cm), 3 platers, with a warranty sticker that says > IBM and 10SR. I'm curious what sort of systems these were used in. Does this look right? http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/IBM_s34/OnTruck/P1010009.jpg These disks are out of, as the link suggests, an S/34. I think they were used in the S/36's as well, but I could be wrong. I know they were also used in the Series/1 machines, as I have a stripped one in the basement that the people before me had already dismantled. Gotta love hard disks with electromagnetic drum brakes. JP From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Aug 29 09:42:56 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:42:56 -0400 Subject: 10 Year Rule In-Reply-To: <44F4550B.21955.4E1652C4@localhost> References: <44F4550B.21955.4E1652C4@localhost> Message-ID: <200608291042.56453.pat@computer-refuge.org> I was trying to stay out of this, hoping this thread would die by itself, but it didn't... On Tuesday 29 August 2006 08:54, Hans Franke wrote: > Am 29 Aug 2006 7:19 meinte Jay West: > > Zane wrote.... > > > > > When was the 10 year rule revoked? > > > > Apparently my many posts on this over the past few years were > > missed. Ok, for your benefit, consider the revocation date 8/29/06. > > Now, hold the horses. Has there been something I missed? > Like some putsch? So, who is the ruler that gave us the > revocation of our basic rule, right today? Jay, the our sovereign leader. The guy that runs the list. "For some reason," he believes that since he's running classiccmp now, he can control the way it runs. Deal with it. He's instead asking you to "use good judgement" in what's classic or not. If you can't do that, well, I'm sorry, I can't help you with that. > > > I'm pretty sure the 10 year definition dates back to the > > > beginning, I know it was in place 3 months after the list was > > > formed. > > > > When it was created has little bearing on when it was retired or > > it's relevance today. > > Sounds like some people might think about the constitution. > SCNR, but that rule is the very basic definition of this list. > And it worked quite fine for a long time. So did lots of things, and for a lot longer. Doesn't mean that they're right, or the best way to do things. > > > There are most definitely some *very* cool systems that are less > > > than 10 years old. > > > > Sure there is. "Cool" doesn't necessarily mean on-topic though. > > There's probably lists on the internet somewhere that they can be > > discussed. > > Which is exatly what this list is ment to be. I strongly > suggest that, if someone wants a differnent list, he or > she should go ahead and open up such, but not try to > fiddle with CC. Or perhaps if you don't like progress, you should go create your own list? :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bdwheele at indiana.edu Tue Aug 29 09:45:07 2006 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:45:07 -0400 Subject: 10 Year Rule In-Reply-To: <200608291042.56453.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <44F4550B.21955.4E1652C4@localhost> <200608291042.56453.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1156862707.18293.22.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> On Tue, 2006-08-29 at 10:42 -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Or perhaps if you don't like progress, you should go create your own > list? :) Fine, I'll create my own list. With blackjack. And hookers. In fact, screw the list. Brian From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 29 09:51:49 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 09:51:49 -0500 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) References: <44F4550B.21955.4E1652C4@localhost> Message-ID: <009701c6cb7a$a87f4700$6700a8c0@BILLING> Hans wrote.... > Now, hold the horses. Has there been something I missed? > Like some putsch? So, who is the ruler that gave us the > revocation of our basic rule, right today? That would be me, the owner of this list. And given my past indulgence of many peoples behaviour on the list, I rather resent the "ruler" and "right revoker" implication/characterization that you make. This has been a benevolent dictatorship for a long time - since I took over the list many years ago. From what I have been seeing on the list the past few months, I have been far far too benevolent. Case in point - severe off-topicness and quite frankly childish public bickering amongst listmembers that has gone on far too long. I've about had it, and it's definitely past due time for me to "put my foot down" as it were. Good god there has been so much childishness here lately I should turn off the list for everyone a few days to give you all a "time out". People, I am seriously ticked off. Regardless of the fact that I am the list owner, I have virtually always solicited user input before making decisions. I've also virtually always accepted whatever the majority wishes (including a time or two that the majority wanted something I was vehemently opposed to). However, I'd appreciate it if you didn't infer that I do not have the right to make list decisions on my own, with or without input. Perhaps my "going with the flow" for so long has lulled you into the notion that I don't have the final say in matters. I do. The simple fact is, I prefer to let the membership at large "run things". However, doing so (at least to the level that I have been) is obviously not working given the current signal to noise ratio. Since people can't act like adults and police themselves, I will have to step in and do it. Gee, thanks. This is a H-O-B-B-Y folks, thankfully Jim Battle was considerate enough to save me some time and look up the following previous posts: The revocation date was 2005/05/08: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2005-May/194004.html "The definition of On Topic", Jan 2005 http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2005-January/057970.html Thread view of same: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2005-January/thread.html#57970 I suggest those concerned about what is on-topic and off-topic read the above, particularly the thread view. Due to the severe off-topicness of late, I'm not sure I'm really up for any discussion on the matter. My sincere apologies to the list for not jumping in to this sooner and being more pro-active. Best regards, Jay West From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 29 10:08:08 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:08:08 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <003d01c6cb2c$bdc37260$655b2c0a@w2kdell> References: <003d01c6cb2c$bdc37260$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: <44F45858.7010304@dakotacom.net> Andy Holt wrote: >> Yes, I *know* this has been done other ways in the past. >> What I am trying to figure out is the rationale behind >> why it has (apparently) migrated into the file *name*. > > That, I think, was a necessary side effect of the original Unix design > decision that "a file is a sequence of characters" without special propertis > that are known to the operating system. IMO, a file *is* an untyped string of *bytes*. The OS shouldn't care about it's representation (none of this "text mode" vs. "binary mode" crap). It's "attributes" should solely be things like size, creation time, ACLs, etc. As the **OS** sees it. The nonsense of "file types" belongs at a higher layer. E.g., IMO the Windows/MAC/etc. GUI's are (read that as: "should be") viewed/built as layers ON TOP OF the OS (from a conceptual standpoint; implementation details may differ). So, if that "presentation" layer wants to *impose* something like a "file type", *it* assumes the cost of maintaining that information and encoding it in some "sensible" manner. [i.e. my issue here is why this encoding seems to have gravitated into the file NAME instead of some other mechanism] > As has been pointed-out DEC operating sytems going batck to DOS/BATCH 11 and > probably earlier have used the (then) 6.3 convention. What might not be so > well known is that for most mainframe operating systems of the era a lot of > attributes of a file were stored, maintained, and _enforced_ by the > operating system. This was especially true of the GECOS (later GCOS) system > that the Bell labs people knew all to well. > > So, as far as the OS was concerned, files might be serial, sequential, > indexed sequential, random (and perhaps other organisations) with fixed or > variable record sizes. (see the DCB card in OS360 JCL); there may be a IMO, this was a mistake. It forces the OS to know too much about the applications that run on it -- instead of being a resource manager. I.e. it should implement mechanisms, not policy. > complex set of access permissions (not just read/write/modify, or even > access control list, but possibly password-controlled access or time of day > limited also); and there probably also are a large set of backup options as > well. > > These could make if very difficult, for example, to write a COBOL program > whose output was source for the FORTRAN compiler [and even harder to do the > reverse - COBOL, at least, could probably handle most file types) Exactly. Or, any "unforeseen" file types... From blkline at attglobal.net Tue Aug 29 10:10:07 2006 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:10:07 -0400 Subject: IBM 10SR is from what system? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44F458CF.70000@attglobal.net> JP Hindin wrote: > Does this look right? > http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/IBM_s34/OnTruck/P1010009.jpg > > These disks are out of, as the link suggests, an S/34. I think they were > used in the S/36's as well, but I could be wrong. > I know they were also used in the Series/1 machines, as I have a stripped > one in the basement that the people before me had already dismantled. > Gotta love hard disks with electromagnetic drum brakes. The CEs called them "Piccolo" drives... IIRC (and this goes back twenty years), they were referred to as a 62PC drive, and were 64M in size. My first S/34 had four of them, for a total of 256MB. I remember that one needed to be replaced and there was this formatting procedure thatrequired the serial number of the drive to be inputted into a screen. This required the CE to take a flashlight and stick his head inside the machine to obtain it. It was some gawd-awful long number. The he had to reply to a pile of screens which all warned about the dangers of formatting and data loss. There was a place to note that the "customer has been informed" of this in one of the screens. I remember thinking that the sequence for launching our nukes couldn't be this convoluted. Barry From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 29 10:20:32 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:20:32 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608290649.CAA09130@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> <200608290649.CAA09130@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44F45B40.50907@dakotacom.net> der Mouse wrote: >>> Unix was the first system that I'd ever seen where the file name >>> implied a type. > >> By "type", I mean: > >> "This is a photograph" >> "This is a MSWord 'document'" >> "This is a TIFF image" >> "This is a C source file" >> "This is a C++ header file" > > I don't think Unix file names imply types, though for some types they > do imply default types. (Or, to put it another way, they imply types > in an advisory, not mandatory, sense.) [I assume at least one of those "types" was intended to be "file extensions" :> ] > (And yes, I realize the above quotes are not from the same person. In > fact, the one looks like a response to the other.) > >> E.g., ages ago [...] I could do "asm foo.obj" if I had a perverse >> sense of humor *and*, as long as "foo.obj" contained valid "src >> code", the application would process it as such. > >> But, nowadays, systems seem (excepting Macs?) to all tie some >> significance to the "extensions" tagged onto filenames. E.g., they >> gag on files named "MyFile", "ReadMe", etc. because they can't infer >> the file type from the name (lacking a suitable "extension"). > > This does not describe any even vaguely Unixish system in my > experience. All of them handle such things just fine - indeed, I have > a number of plain text documentation files named something.doc on my > home machines. Correct. Because UNIX (i.e. the *OS*) doesn't have a concept of "file types" (in the sense of this discussion). That concept (to the extent present) is something associated with any desktop *application* running ON TOP OF it. E.g., if KDE wants to introduce a concept of a file type to enable a "click to open (using the "appropriate" viewer for this type!)" mechanism, then KDE has to assume the responsibility for managing file type information. [this fits with my opinion of where the division of labor should lie between app vs. os] But, still, even in these *layered* approaches, the file name has been chosen as the mechanism for conveying type information. It need not have been (though it looks like the EASIEST way of doing so). Again, I see nothing explaining why this evolution occurred (other than "because folks got used to someone's CHEAP implementation). Or, perhaps the behaviour of so many command line apps, over the years, to *assume* "default" suffixes for the types of files on which they operated (to save us the trouble of typing a few extra characters?) evolved into the *inverse* "convenience" -- letting us tell the machine what application we want based solely on the name of the file that we specified (what a perversion! :> ) Imagine the (cough) elegance of being able to type: $ foo.c // to compile foo $ foo.o // to link foo $ foo // to run foo (neglecting the means of actually *writing* foo! :< ) From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 29 10:26:07 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:26:07 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608290708.DAA09248@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> <200608281921260219.10B8F6A3@10.0.0.252> <44F3AEA1.90208@dakotacom.net> <200608290708.DAA09248@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44F45C8F.2010100@dakotacom.net> der Mouse wrote: >> Yes, I *know* this has been done other ways in the past. What I am >> trying to figure out is the rationale behind why it has (apparently) >> migrated into the file *name*. [snip] > I don't know why this was. I conjecture that it was done so that the > type, or at least a decent approxmation to the type, would be available > to a human looking at a directory listing. One could say that this > could have been done by printing type information in directory Exactly. E.g., in the MS world, this is redundant information (the equivalent of: "foo.txt TXT file" -- even if "TXT file" is "Notepad document"... it still redundantly expresses the information already conveyed in the file name!). [I never learned how to get "creator" information displayed in MacOS directory listings... other than using ResEdit] > listings, but that misses the point that conceptual file types were not > 1:1 with filesystem file types - as a simple example, the filesystem > type information for a plain text doc file and a FORTRAN source file > might well be exactly the same. This implies that the OS did NOT track file types to the same granularity that the presentation layer imposed. (as is the case with UNIX... a file is a file is a file... the "desktop" can add finer distinctions if it wants) >> I.e. if you were starting from scratch *today*, why would you chose >> to encode file types in file names? vs. some other alternative?? > > I'm not sure I would choose to. If I did, though, a large part of why > would be that humans are used to it. :-) From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 29 10:38:43 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:38:43 -0700 Subject: 10 Year Rule (was Re: Recommendations for operating system) In-Reply-To: <44F45307.8344.4E0E74AA@localhost> References: <44F45307.8344.4E0E74AA@localhost> Message-ID: At 2:45 PM +0200 8/29/06, Hans Franke wrote: >Am 28 Aug 2006 21:14 meinte Jay West: > > There *IS* no 10-year rule. I'm really getting tired of saying that. It's >> not that the very concept is wrong, it's just outdated. It doesn't work >> after a certain point. > >Well, at the time I signed up to this list - and that's like >more than five years ago, there was this rule, and it never >got modified - course not, since it's one of the basics of >this list. If someone likes a list without this rule, it >would be best to open up his own. I personally think that this pretty much sums it up. The 10 year rule is the bedrock of the list. And Hans, I think you'll find you've been here a *LOT* longer than five years :^) >The 10 year rule is a great concept of benchmarking for easy >judgeing. Ans just because we oldtimer see anything after 1980 >as modern unworthy stuff, it doesn't mean it realy is. Time is >moveing ahead and new stuff becomes old and 'classic' to new >people. Just think of 70s and 80s cars. To me, they have no >classic apeal at all, but there is already a collector scene. >Come on, a 1978 Golf, or similar is just good to be used as >scrap metal for new cars - well, they are collectors items! > >One needs to accept the fact that time moves on. The worst to >do is to set fixed dates - that's a shure way to become a >sidenote in history. > >So, let's stay with the great list we have. This is a *perfect* way of explaining this fact, and remember that the life span of computers are a lot shorter than that of cars. I have a '72 Dodge Pickup, it looks like it belongs in the junk yard, but it runs great. Recently someone who had no idea that it actually runs, offered to buy it. There is a reason for the 10 year rule in the definition of classic. That is/was set in stone and still should be. There is also a reason for the "coolness exemption", which while not set in stone has been recognized by the membership at large. I agree that there is a problem with off-topicness on this list. I honestly don't know how much, as I don't read every message. My *KEY* complaint is people not changing the subject when the subject of the thread drifts. I know I've missed out on threads that I'm interested in due to this, and I've gone far farther than I have time in threads that I've become disinterested in due to this. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 29 10:57:48 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:57:48 -0400 Subject: IBM 10SR is from what system? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 29, 2006, at 10:34 AM, JP Hindin wrote: >> There's a mom+pop computer shop in Takoma Park, MD that likes to >> stick all >> the oldest hardware they have in their front window. The only thing >> they >> have I've never seen before is a hard disk assembly, in a clear >> plastic >> case (maybe 30cm by 50cm), 3 platers, with a warranty sticker that >> says >> IBM and 10SR. I'm curious what sort of systems these were used in. > > Does this look right? > http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/IBM_s34/OnTruck/P1010009.jpg Oh I'd *so* like to spend a little Quality Time with one of those. It'd be neat to attempt to design an interface for it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 29 10:57:55 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:57:55 -0700 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <009701c6cb7a$a87f4700$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <44F4550B.21955.4E1652C4@localhost> <009701c6cb7a$a87f4700$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: At 9:51 AM -0500 8/29/06, Jay West wrote: >The revocation date was 2005/05/08: >http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2005-May/194004.html This didn't even have an appropriate subject line, a lot (most?) of us never saw it. >"The definition of On Topic", Jan 2005 >http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2005-January/057970.html This sounds like an attempt to define a totally different list than this has *EVER* been. If I read this correctly we should avoid speaking of Unix, OpenVMS, Mac OS, and even Amiga OS, and maybe even TOS. That leaves a pretty narrow field. Even I can recognize that older And yes, as you've no doubt figured I feel quite strongly about this subject as do several other members who have been here a very long time. Just because something a fair number of us are either disinterested in, or actively dislike becomes on topic is not a reason to change one of the founding principles of this list. In fact it goes against another founding principle of the list. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jim.isbell at gmail.com Tue Aug 29 11:00:01 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:00:01 -0500 Subject: 10 Year Rule (was Re: Recommendations for operating system) In-Reply-To: References: <44F45307.8344.4E0E74AA@localhost> Message-ID: On 8/29/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > My > *KEY* complaint is people not changing the subject when the subject > of the thread drifts. I know I've missed out on threads that I'm > interested in due to this, and I've gone far farther than I have time > in threads that I've become disinterested in due to this. Amen and Amen. This causes me to lose a lot I am sure. And I can see why it happ-ens. I could change this subject line to "Subject Line Veracity" but then those following it would get lost. Its a "damned if you do and damned if you dont" situation. Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From jplist at kiwigeek.com Tue Aug 29 11:20:33 2006 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:20:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: IBM 10SR is from what system?; IBM S/34 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Aug 2006, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Aug 29, 2006, at 10:34 AM, JP Hindin wrote: > >> There's a mom+pop computer shop in Takoma Park, MD that likes to > >> stick all > >> the oldest hardware they have in their front window. The only thing > >> they > >> have I've never seen before is a hard disk assembly, in a clear > >> plastic > >> case (maybe 30cm by 50cm), 3 platers, with a warranty sticker that > >> says > >> IBM and 10SR. I'm curious what sort of systems these were used in. > > > > Does this look right? > > http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/IBM_s34/OnTruck/P1010009.jpg > > Oh I'd *so* like to spend a little Quality Time with one of those. > It'd be neat to attempt to design an interface for it. > > -Dave Make your way to Iowa and it's yours ;) (Shameless plug to follow) Free for pickup one IBM System/34, complete with documentation and print sets. OS, couple hundred 8" floppies, 20 8" jukebox cartridges (for it's internal 8" 10-floppy changer). Even comes with three appropriate modems ;) Four internal 64MB disks. JP Middle o' Iowa. From evan at snarc.net Tue Aug 29 11:20:40 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:20:40 -0400 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c6cb87$11a5f470$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> A 10-year-rule is not a principle. It made sense in 1997. It doesn't make sense now. Here in NJ, there's a 25-year-rule for getting special license plates on an antique car. Great, so cars from 1981 are now antiques...!? I don't know any better way to make a point than the power of a good metaphor. For the record, I think Jay is doing a GREAT job, and more people who might be intimidated by this thread but who agree should speak up and say so. -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy [mailto:healyzh at aracnet.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 11:58 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) At 9:51 AM -0500 8/29/06, Jay West wrote: >The revocation date was 2005/05/08: >http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2005-May/194004.html This didn't even have an appropriate subject line, a lot (most?) of us never saw it. >"The definition of On Topic", Jan 2005 >http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2005-January/057970.html This sounds like an attempt to define a totally different list than this has *EVER* been. If I read this correctly we should avoid speaking of Unix, OpenVMS, Mac OS, and even Amiga OS, and maybe even TOS. That leaves a pretty narrow field. Even I can recognize that older And yes, as you've no doubt figured I feel quite strongly about this subject as do several other members who have been here a very long time. Just because something a fair number of us are either disinterested in, or actively dislike becomes on topic is not a reason to change one of the founding principles of this list. In fact it goes against another founding principle of the list. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Tue Aug 29 11:48:26 2006 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:48:26 +0100 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F45858.7010304@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <002a01c6cb8a$f2e55900$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Don, you're just seeing one side of the picture. >From the PoV of the programmer just seeking the easiest way of coding a problem on a 8-bit byte oriented machine, it is indeed true that an undifferentiated sequence of bytes has considerable advantages. However, in the historical world - and even nowadays in parts of the real world - other considerations can occur. Most notably in the field of efficiency and performance. It is a truism throughout computing that an important skill is the selection of the correct level of abstraction (and often of indirection) for the problem. For underutilised machines (eg personal desktops) programmer ease is typically the primary requirement. For the heavily scheduled batch machines of 40 years ago and for real-time applications one may need to get nearer the metal. > Andy Holt wrote: > >> Yes, I *know* this has been done other ways in the past. > >> What I am trying to figure out is the rationale behind > >> why it has (apparently) migrated into the file *name*. > > > > That, I think, was a necessary side effect of the original Unix design > > decision that "a file is a sequence of characters" without > special propertis > > that are known to the operating system. > > IMO, a file *is* an untyped string of *bytes*. The OS shouldn't > care about it's representation (none of this "text mode" vs. > "binary mode" crap). It's "attributes" should solely be things > like size, creation time, ACLs, etc. An old problem of differing size characters - typically on 36-bit-word machines where character sizes might be 6, 7, 8, or 9 bits is now reappearing with unicode. I could argue that application program ought to be "blind" to the representation of characters in a simple serial text file. In unix the "dd" program tries, with modest success, to handle the problem. In the '60s and '70s the saving in file space by using fixed-length records without storing "newline" (or whatever) could be vital. > > > > So, as far as the OS was concerned, files might be serial, sequential, > > indexed sequential, random (and perhaps other organisations) > with fixed or > > variable record sizes. (see the DCB card in OS360 JCL); there may be a > > IMO, this was a mistake. It forces the OS to know too much > about the applications that run on it -- instead of being a > resource manager. I.e. it should implement mechanisms, not > policy. There is a problem here - if you only present an abstraction of the hardware to the programmer you have no means of using information about the underlying hardware to gain performance. 40 years ago there were large books on how to design indexed-sequential files ... and for good reason. If your carefully optimised layout gets abstracted-away from under you performance can drop by orders of magnitude. > > > complex set of access permissions (not just read/write/modify, or even > > access control list, but possibly password-controlled access or > time of day > > limited also); and there probably also are a large set of > backup options as > > well. > > > > These could make if very difficult, for example, to write a > COBOL program > > whose output was source for the FORTRAN compiler [and even > harder to do the > > reverse - COBOL, at least, could probably handle most file types) > > Exactly. Or, any "unforeseen" file types... Oh yes - your agument also has its points. But try feeding a unicode source text file into your copy of GCC and see what happens. Andy From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Aug 29 11:53:32 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:53:32 -0400 Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <200608281715.46577.rtellason@gmail.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060828162500.109f9a2c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060829123841.05c8d800@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Roy J. Tellason may have mentioned these words: >On Monday 28 August 2006 04:53 pm, Mike Loewen wrote: > > Some Korg MIDI equipment used a 2.8" QuickDisk: > > > > http://www.keyboardmuseum.org/ar/k/korg/s/sqd1.html > > > > Some Akai samplers also used the QuickDisk. Apparently, these was also > > referred to as 3" diskettes, according to Wikipedia. > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk#Mitsumi.27s_.22Quick_Disk.22_3-inc > >h_floppies On the aforementioned wikipedia site, the picture of the 2.8" disk is from Smith-Corona of typewriter/wordprocessor fame - which may have OEMmed a few Radio Shack word processors as I remember seeing (about 6 years ago) a 1-each blister-pack with an RS-branded 2.8" floppy in it. IIRC (which I doubt) the storage was either 100K or 200K. The old RS (which also, is no longer a RS) has since moved to a smaller location, so I'd seriously doubt they still have it. IIRC, they wanted full price for it (like $10+), so I left it. (They were also selling a NOS Tandy 1000SX[1] for a clearance price of $799.99 (almost 1/2 off the *original* released price.)) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] For those who don't know early Tandy/RS PCs, this was a dual-5.25" floppy drive system (no HD), 8Mhz 8086 w/384K RAM standard... For $800 you could pick up a 500+Mhz P3/Athlon w/decent hard drive & CD burner at that time. I'm guessing he never sold it. ;-) -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 29 12:01:04 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:01:04 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F45858.7010304@dakotacom.net> References: <003d01c6cb2c$bdc37260$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <44F45858.7010304@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608291001040858.13DE507E@10.0.0.252> On 8/29/2006 at 8:08 AM Don wrote: >IMO, this was a mistake. It forces the OS to know too much >about the applications that run on it -- instead of being a >resource manager. I.e. it should implement mechanisms, not >policy. Okay, this is drifiting OT, but I can't let this go by unchallenged. It merely incorporates the nasty business of blocking and formatting records into a standard set of routines. They don't have to be run at the supervisory level, but convention should dictate their use. The beauty is that data interchange among applications gets easier--and you don't have the run-time library for a particular language implementing its own idea of what a file full of ASCII strings is and being compatible with nothing else. Your example of a COBOL program writing source for a FORTRAN program thus works, as long as the COBOL program doesn't use datatypes that are completely unknown to the FORTRAN world (e.g. COMP-3 numbers). Cyber Record Manager (CRM) was introduced into the CDC NOS world sometime during the 70's and it made a big difference in application code. If your program, for example, had to read a tape full of 7000 SCOPE W-type records, you could simply declare the tape (via job control statements) as containing them, instead of having to write a bunch of code to decipher them. And one application's idea of what an ISAM file was is assured to be the same as another's. For the diehards, you can always declare a medium as containing raw bits and wrestle with them in your applicaton code. But for most applications, there's no reason to do this. How many ways are there of representing variable length character strings? And how many have you run into? Off the top of my head, I've seen--on the MS-DOS/Windows platform the following: byte count+data, word count+data, data terminated by 00, data terminated by 0a, data terminated by 0d, data terminated by 1F, and probably a few others that don't occur to me right off. I'm not a big fan of the "implement whatever weird nonstandard file structure you like and hope no one loses the program that created it" school of thought. Cheers, Chuck From alexeyt at freeshell.org Tue Aug 29 12:04:13 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:04:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: IBM 10SR is from what system? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Aug 2006, JP Hindin wrote: > On Tue, 29 Aug 2006, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >> There's a mom+pop computer shop in Takoma Park, MD that likes to stick all >> the oldest hardware they have in their front window. The only thing they >> have I've never seen before is a hard disk assembly, in a clear plastic >> case (maybe 30cm by 50cm), 3 platers, with a warranty sticker that says >> IBM and 10SR. I'm curious what sort of systems these were used in. > > Does this look right? > http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/IBM_s34/OnTruck/P1010009.jpg Nope, that's not it, but the warranty sticker looks very similar. I think this photo: http://www.computerhistory.org/VisibleStorage/images/IMG_2351_sm.jpg might be it. The warranty sticker is on what in this image is the top. The platters are maybe a foot across. Alexey From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 29 12:05:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:05:26 -0700 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <000401c6cb87$11a5f470$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000401c6cb87$11a5f470$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <200608291005260397.13E24E1E@10.0.0.252> On 8/29/2006 at 12:20 PM Evan Koblentz wrote: >Here in NJ, there's a 25-year-rule for getting special license plates on an >antique car. Great, so cars from 1981 are now antiques...!? It all depends on one's perspective. As when I encounter someone on my daily walk who realizes that the T shirt I'm wearing is older than they are. From my viewpoint, an Atari 520ST is neither antique nor vintage, but to a younger person, it may well be. We need to be flexible here. Cheers, Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 29 12:16:22 2006 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <000401c6cb87$11a5f470$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <20060829171622.59085.qmail@web52709.mail.yahoo.com> --- Evan Koblentz wrote: > A 10-year-rule is not a principle. It made sense in > 1997. It doesn't make > sense now. > > Here in NJ, there's a 25-year-rule for getting > special license plates on an > antique car. Great, so cars from 1981 are now > antiques...!? > Yeah, I would guess so. But remember, as time marches on, things that were current become obsolete. If you limit classic cars to 1969 and older, then pretty soon, there won't be any in the hands of actual collectors. Sure, you may remember buying a car new in 1981 - and it might not be special to you, but for someone else, it may be a classic. I know that I really miss our 1981 Cutlas Supreme station wagon - and to me, it's a classic. So, you can't just limit "classic computers" to stuff that was made before 1987, either. As technology moves foreward, more and more things become obsolete or, as some like to call it, vintage or classic. And while to _me_ a 486 will not feel like a classic, I know some people that have never used a computer that didn't have a CDROM burner. To them a machine with 16 megs of RAM is classic. We can all agree that a Vax is a classic - but no matter how hard I try, I have never been able to bag a Vax - it seems that you have to be part of some secret society to find one of those. Kinda like going out tomorrow and trying to find a '48 Packard. But there's plenty of classic to go around and it's impossible to define classic in a static method that will make everyone happy. So, rather than spending our energy telling people "NO! That Pentium 75 is NOT a classic, get lost!" or even trying to define, logically, what really is classic, I think we should focus on the community we've got here. We have a lot of great people, and a large wealth of knowledge and generosity. We also seem to have picked up a bit of elitism and hatred toward certain things or systems. Yeah, I don't like Microsoft either - but I still think that Windows 3.1 has it's place in the history of computing, and if someone wants some help or wants to talk about it, well, this _is_ the classic computing list. The only point I'm trying to make is that we should just try and have fun with this hobby. A lot of us have different interests and have different periods of computing that we like to work with. Overall, the ten year rule does work pretty well to separate the old stuff from the new stuff. Yeah, it's not the greatest, but it kinda works as a baseline. And it's not like clearly defining off topic and on topic really matters all that much anyway, that's why we have two different lists - cctech and cctalk. You're going to get off topic posts on every bulliten board or mailing list. This is a community as much as it is a mailing list. Have fun with it, and don't take the list (or yourself) too seriously. The most important thing we can do is to keep the hobby fun, and help each other. If we can't do that, then what's the point in talking to each other? Think happy thoughts, never post just to be annoying, and yes, there are lots of holy wars out there - vi vs. emacs, Linux vs. Windows, Mac vs. PC, Amiga vs. everything else... -- the important thing to keep in mind is that our goal in life is _not_ to make everyone else think as we do. Have fun! This is a hobby. It's supposed to be fun. Apologies for being so preachy and long winded. I have a bad habit of doing things like that - being a nice guy has always gotten me into trouble in the past. I'll shut up now. -Ian From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 29 12:18:43 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:18:43 -0400 Subject: Perspective on 10 Year Rule In-Reply-To: <44F4550B.21955.4E1652C4@localhost> Message-ID: <200608291732.k7THWHbo039237@keith.ezwind.net> Ok just what is Classic ? First the question is if something is Classic by design or by construction ? There are many modern examples of Classic designs and styles being manufactured all the time, retro is in again don't you know ;-) Defining Classicness by age, is a moving target that it is bounded by Contemporary or Modern on one side and Antique on the other. This often included the period we often call Vintage. I have found that the pattern of third's fits this timeline. The first 1/3 of most technology timelines are considered Antique, and the last third is considered Contemporary or Modern. Leaving Classic to describe the mid life or development cycle of a lifecycle. Most notably the early period of public awareness or adaptation. Lets first look at some examples. EAA uses the following for judging aircraft: Antique is from first practical flight about 1910 until the end of WWII Sept 1 1945. Classic has been split for judging into the 10 year period between the end of the war and 1955 and the 12 year Contemporary period extending the cutoff of Modern Aircraft until 1967. Classic Radio is a period between the 40's and 70's thus it too gets older every year. Classic Cars need only to be more than 15 or 20 years old for most insurance and registration purposes. Yet I find the 70's is a common cut off date for Classic car lists. The Antique Automobile Club of America conceder 25 years the moving cutoff point. The more restrictive Classic Car Club of America limits Classic from 1925 to 1948. Classic Motorcycles are for the most part were built pre-1975. (mark 856-2222) A Classic book is one written in ancient Greece or ancient Rome between 7bc to 5ad, and shows how extreme the Classic timeline can get. So how does this relate to Classic Computers ? This list was formed in 1997 and the 10 years rule back then put 1987 as the cutoff point. This was a time when computers from about 1967 were to 1987 were the topic and those new fangled micros were modern and to be avoided. For many of us the earliest examples in our collections are tubes and unit record examples from the 50's. It is now almost 10 years latter, do we shift the cutoff date to 1997 or leave it at 1967? Using the 1950 date, the dawn of commercial computing as a starting point, 1987 fits the thirds rule nicely making 1968 the cutoff point, of dare I say it, Antique Computers. Using the accepted 50 year definition of Antique it should be closer to 1957. But 1967 makes sense for several reasons. It is interesting that IBM created the first floppy disk in 1967 and Intel was formed in 1968. The year 1987 was the point where LSI chipsets first appeared on motherboards to replace discreet logic and IBM sent first clone manufacturers letters demanding licensing fees. This is the same point in history when Microsofts hit $100 a share on the stock market. That same year Sun introduced the SPARK processor and IBM introduced VGA. If on the other hand we compromise and only shift half the distance and make the new cutoff 15 years back not 10, then we are right at the introduction of Linux and the birth of the World Wide Web along with the first release of PGP and Truetype. In 1992 VESA local bus was introduced to better present the emerging graphical user interfaces that were taking over office and engineering applications. At the same time Intel released the DX2 chips with the clock doubler in an attempt to keep up with the commercial and graphic software explosion that was taking place at that time. The Gamers had begun to drive the consumer marker demanding faster processors and better graphics. If we hold true to the 10 year rule than 1996 would be the new cutoff date. The year Intel introduced the P6-200, Microsoft introduces Diredt-X, NEC merged with Packard-Bell, in an attempt to produce the lowest cost computer that could be sold at discount and appliance stores to the mass market. Apple Stocks hit a 10 year low about the same time WebTV was introduced and Tandy closes 36 Incredible Universe and Computer City stores due to poor consumer sales. Not such a good time in the computer business and I am sorry I do not think the Pacard-Hell will ever be a classic. The 10 year rule worked in the beginning but does not age well, 15 or 20 is more fitting to todays conversations. Just some food for thought, find composing these little mutterings therapeutic it helps me to keep things in perspective, feel free to delete and move on, at least it is on-topic no matter what the cutoff point is :-) The other Bob From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 29 12:28:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:28:34 -0700 Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060829123841.05c8d800@mail.30below.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060828162500.109f9a2c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060829123841.05c8d800@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200608291028340767.13F77D63@10.0.0.252> On 8/29/2006 at 12:53 PM Roger Merchberger wrote: >On the aforementioned wikipedia site, the picture of the 2.8" disk is from >Smith-Corona of typewriter/wordprocessor fame - which may have OEMmed a >few Radio Shack word processors as I remember seeing (about 6 years ago) a >1-each blister-pack with an RS-branded 2.8" floppy in it. IIRC (which I >doubt) the storage was either 100K or 200K. You may be too generous. I've got a SCM PWP-7000LT here that uses those and IIRC, you get about 50-60K on one. The drive is the "continuous spiral" type; i.e., the head is operated through a clutch off the spindle motor and performs a sweep of the entire disk surface in a single operation. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 29 12:08:12 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <000401c6cb87$11a5f470$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000401c6cb87$11a5f470$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <200608291735.NAA12520@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > For the record, I think Jay is doing a GREAT job, and more people who > might be intimidated by this thread but who agree should speak up and > say so. Well, I don't feel intimidated by the thread. But I do think Jay is doing a good job managing the list; I don't agree with everything he does/says, but I agree with most of it, and I think he's probably doing a better job than I would in his place. If Jay says the list rules have changed, the list rules have changed, and it is not for us to gainsay him. classiccmp is a tremendous resource, and it seems to me more than a trifle arrogant for us to try to tell Jay how he has to run something he's *donating* to us. If you don't like it, go start your own list. Make it good, and I might even subscribe. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 29 12:39:26 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:39:26 -0500 Subject: 10 Year Rule (was Re: Recommendations for operating system) References: <44F45307.8344.4E0E74AA@localhost> Message-ID: <00a401c6cb92$13077f40$6700a8c0@BILLING> Zane wrote... > I personally think that this pretty much sums it up. The 10 year rule is > the bedrock of the list. I'm way beyond the point of discussion on this, thanks to recent comments. > My *KEY* complaint is people not changing the subject when the subject of > the thread drifts. Oh great. Why don't you just bring up the "reply to list" address topic too. Oh, and while you're at it, lets dive in to the "blog format" thread again. Or how about the "divide the list by hardware interest" thread. Thanks for the gasoline on the fire. You want to know MY key complaint? It's people who keep bringing up the same volatile threads, again and again and again. I wasn't kidding - I'm 1/2 step away from a server originated mandatory list-wide "time-out". J From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 29 12:44:27 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:44:27 -0500 Subject: 10 Year Rule (was Re: Recommendations for operating system) References: <44F45307.8344.4E0E74AA@localhost> Message-ID: <00b901c6cb92$c6838690$6700a8c0@BILLING> Jim wrote... Its a "damned if you do and damned if you dont" situation. > > Jim Isbell Welcome to my world, and I've about had enough of it. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 29 12:59:58 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <000401c6cb87$11a5f470$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> from "Evan Koblentz" at Aug 29, 2006 12:20:40 PM Message-ID: <200608291759.k7THxwme013014@onyx.spiritone.com> > A 10-year-rule is not a principle. It made sense in 1997. It doesn't make > sense now. Wrong. The 10 year rule still makes sense. What you are saying is that no new systems will be added, and that this is a dying hobby. Just because the majority of us have no interest in a 10 year old PC, or Windows 95/NT4 is no reason to change one of the founding principles of this list. Just because a large number of people here don't want to view a 60Mhz Pentium running Windows 95 as a classic doesn't make it any less of a fact. To many people that is a classic. To many of us (myself included) it's a nightmare, but that doesn't mean that I will deny the fact that it is now a Classic Computer. It is wrong to change a definition because you it suddenly includes hardware that you don't like. This group is *SUPPOSED* to platform neutral, but what I'm seeing here amounts to bigotry. > For the record, I think Jay is doing a GREAT job, and more people who might > be intimidated by this thread but who agree should speak up and say so. I'm not saying he isn't. I'm saying he's wrong with regards to the 10 year rule. Zane From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 29 13:24:03 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:24:03 -0700 Subject: Role of OS in filesystem (was "File types") In-Reply-To: <002a01c6cb8a$f2e55900$655b2c0a@w2kdell> References: <002a01c6cb8a$f2e55900$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: <44F48643.6010808@dakotacom.net> [thread forked as this line is really not what *I* am trying to pursue... :< ] Andy Holt wrote: > Don, you're just seeing one side of the picture. > > From the PoV of the programmer just seeking the easiest way of coding a > problem on a 8-bit byte oriented machine, it is indeed true that an > undifferentiated sequence of bytes has considerable advantages. Sorry, if my choice of the word "bytes" was a distraction. Call them "storage units". I dislike the term "characters" as it tends to imply additional semantics that many files don't follow (or, should we have "Characters" and "characters"? :> ) > However, in the historical world - and even nowadays in parts of the real > world - other considerations can occur. Most notably in the field of > efficiency and performance. > > It is a truism throughout computing that an important skill is the selection > of the correct level of abstraction (and often of indirection) for the > problem. > > For underutilised machines (eg personal desktops) programmer ease is > typically the primary requirement. For the heavily scheduled batch machines > of 40 years ago and for real-time applications one may need to get nearer > the metal. Sure. But what role should the OS play in that (as pertaining to applying/enforcing structure on *files* within the filesystems that it maintains)? Where does the boundary between application and OS lie? If the OS promotes these lower level structures to a more visible interface (enforcement), then what happens to the application when the underlying hardware is changed? Does it suddenly need to know about some new scheme -- that may not have been in existence when the application was originally crafted? E.g., I can understand a database indexed using Btrees later converted to use a different scheme -- the DBMS handles this. If the DBMS wants to exploit features of the underlying hardware (e.g., tablespaces to disperse among multiple spindles), then it can do so. Because these things are important to *it*. I just don't think this belongs *in* the OS (if the OS wants to keep a descriptor ACCESSIBLE BY APPLICATIONS that allow those applications to adapt their strategies to those aspects portrayed in that descriptor, that makes perfect sense). I include this sort of support in my systems. "Little things" like cache size, MMU page size, etc. -- so my code can adapt to changes in the underlying hardware without major rewrites. (e.g., I process audio in page size chunks so I can move those chunks quickly between processes -- if the page size changes, it is a big efficiency hit/gain for me so I want to know about it and react accordingly). >> Andy Holt wrote: >>>> Yes, I *know* this has been done other ways in the past. >>>> What I am trying to figure out is the rationale behind >>>> why it has (apparently) migrated into the file *name*. >>> That, I think, was a necessary side effect of the original Unix design >>> decision that "a file is a sequence of characters" without >> special propertis >>> that are known to the operating system. >> IMO, a file *is* an untyped string of *bytes*. The OS shouldn't >> care about it's representation (none of this "text mode" vs. >> "binary mode" crap). It's "attributes" should solely be things >> like size, creation time, ACLs, etc. > > An old problem of differing size characters - typically on 36-bit-word > machines where character sizes might be 6, 7, 8, or 9 bits is now > reappearing with unicode. Yes. But, my point is, the *application* should be responsible for handling this. I don't want the OS to arbitrarily decide: "this is a text file represented in USASCII -- I will automatically convert it to UTF-16 for this application...". There are far too many cases where conversions/coercions can't be done unambiguously. LEave those policy decisions to the application writers (or library designers). > I could argue that application program ought to be "blind" to the > representation of characters in a simple serial text file. In unix the "dd" > program tries, with modest success, to handle the problem. In the '60s and > '70s the saving in file space by using fixed-length records without storing > "newline" (or whatever) could be vital. Sure. I pack eight 5 bit characters into a five byte struct to save bits. But, *I* do that -- not the OS. If you want to deal with "memory" (disk) as 87 byte records, then use setbuf(), et al. and hope the folks who wrote the library did so FOR THAT MACHINE in such a way as to take advantage of the fact that the underlying hardware uses 87 byte records. >>> So, as far as the OS was concerned, files might be serial, sequential, >>> indexed sequential, random (and perhaps other organisations) >> with fixed or >>> variable record sizes. (see the DCB card in OS360 JCL); there may be a >> IMO, this was a mistake. It forces the OS to know too much >> about the applications that run on it -- instead of being a >> resource manager. I.e. it should implement mechanisms, not >> policy. > > There is a problem here - if you only present an abstraction of the hardware > to the programmer you have no means of using information about the > underlying hardware to gain performance. 40 years ago there were large books You don't have to *only* present the abstraction. As I said, you can augment that with information about the hardware in an auxillary structure. A structure that a program *can* choose to examine to impact it's performance -- but that it can also choose to *ignore* withOUT peril! > on how to design indexed-sequential files ... and for good reason. If your > carefully optimised layout gets abstracted-away from under you performance > can drop by orders of magnitude. The technology is still applicable (and still used in RDBMS's). But, you will note that systems that rely on/exploit these things are tied more intimately to their underlying implementations. E.g., a change in the OS's filesystem implementation can render "good designs" suboptimal. If done well, the application can be tweeked to recover some/all of that original performance. >>> complex set of access permissions (not just read/write/modify, or even >>> access control list, but possibly password-controlled access or >> time of day >>> limited also); and there probably also are a large set of >> backup options as >>> well. >>> >>> These could make if very difficult, for example, to write a >> COBOL program >>> whose output was source for the FORTRAN compiler [and even >> harder to do the >>> reverse - COBOL, at least, could probably handle most file types) >> Exactly. Or, any "unforeseen" file types... > Oh yes - your agument also has its points. > But try feeding a unicode source text file into your copy of GCC and see > what happens. That's *exactly* my point! GCC *should* vomit. It shouldn't expect the OS to magically convert that Unicode file into ASCII (what does UTF+2836 map to? '('? ')'? '['??). Instead, if *it* (GCC) can handle Unicode, it should. Otherwise it should choke (gracefully). I wouldn't expect an aria when an arbitrary .gz file is fed to a .wav file player! :> (sigh) But, none of this answers the query of "Why file type information has migrated into the file name"... :> (persistent, eh? :>) To me, having "something" (IMO, *above* the filesystem) that tracks the "type" of a file -- for the benefit of users *of* that file -- is a desireable adjunct *to* the OS. [though, having made these arguments, I am building support for that mechanism *within* my OS -- since it is a key service that all apps *must* use, in my case :< ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 29 13:20:32 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:20:32 -0500 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) References: <200608291759.k7THxwme013014@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <001e01c6cb97$d6696750$6700a8c0@BILLING> I'm trying really hard to reach out and maintain composure.... Zane wrote.... > Wrong. The 10 year rule still makes sense. What you are saying is that > no > new systems will be added, and that this is a dying hobby. Wrong. Just because I said the "10 year rule" is no longer active on the list, does NOT mean that in it's place is a firm year cutoff instead. NEITHER are acceptable. > Just because the > majority of us have no interest in a 10 year old PC, or Windows 95/NT4 is > no > reason to change one of the founding principles of this list. You have to separate the concept of "age" and "classic". No one is changing anything actually. The intent was to have a place to talk about "classic" computers, not just 10 year old computers. Win95 I don't believe is "classic". I suspect it won't be for a long long time, maybe never, I don't know. But something over X years old isn't automatically classic. It's just old. Classic is something apart from age. J From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 29 14:32:24 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:32:24 +0000 Subject: Enterprise 64/128 peripherals Message-ID: <44F49648.5010404@yahoo.co.uk> I sent this one to Witchy the other day, but I think he's on holiday, so... maybe there are other Enterprise experts on the list :) Anyone know what Enterprise peripherals actually made it into production other than the EXDOS interface? We've got a lot of marketing stuff with the machine we were given the other day, and I've seen reference to expansion boxes, memory modules, home security systems, graphics tablets, mice, speech synthesisers. I know the floppy drives themselves never existed outside of marketing mock-ups. In fact, did the Enterprise-branded monitor even make it? Enterprise seemed very good at making full-scale production-quality mock ups of vapourware, so just the fact that it exists in posters doesn't mean much :) It's one seriously cool machine though, and the specs are pretty darn good for the time (way ahead of most other UK micros that were about) - it really deserved to do better. cheers Jules -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From marvin at rain.org Tue Aug 29 13:32:21 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:32:21 -0700 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) Message-ID: <44F48835.F663261B@rain.org> > From: "Jay West" > > Hans wrote.... > > Now, hold the horses. Has there been something I missed? > > Like some putsch? So, who is the ruler that gave us the > > revocation of our basic rule, right today? > > That would be me, the owner of this list. And given my past indulgence of > many peoples behaviour on the list, I rather resent the "ruler" and "right > revoker" implication/characterization that you make. > > This has been a benevolent dictatorship for a long time - since I took over > the list many years ago. I usually am pretty quiet preferring not to add to the "noise" level. BUT, Jay has been doing a fabulous job maintaining the list and providing some order. While some may or may not like it, there HAS to be someone in charge ... and that is Jay. He has always been open to suggestions and mildly tolerant of a *bit* of list "noise", and I see nothing that indicates a change. Personally, I think this list is very lucky to have someone with his knowledge, resources, and dedication running this list ... it appears to be a mostly thankless job. Jay, thanks MUCH for all the work you put into this list! From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 29 13:40:14 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:40:14 -0500 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) References: <44F48835.F663261B@rain.org> Message-ID: <001601c6cb9a$9146b490$6700a8c0@BILLING> Marvin wrote.... > BUT, Jay > has been doing a fabulous job maintaining the list and providing some > order. Thanks for all the public and private notes of thanks and support... but I must humbly beg to differ on this point. I think that in the recent past I've done a horrible job of keeping things on-topic and orderly. I'm trying to change that. J From tarsi at binhost.com Tue Aug 29 13:50:52 2006 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Nathan E. Pralle) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:50:52 -0500 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <001e01c6cb97$d6696750$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <200608291759.k7THxwme013014@onyx.spiritone.com> <001e01c6cb97$d6696750$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <44F48C8C.5030503@binhost.com> > You have to separate the concept of "age" and "classic". No one is > changing anything actually. The intent was to have a place to talk about > "classic" computers, not just 10 year old computers. It appears to me that as time marches on, the setup and configuration of this list may have to change. I say this because the field that our hobby is covering is growing, not shrinking. There's a finite date as to when computers came on the scene, but this date never moves; therefore, the field of study and possibilities is always growing. I think much of the resentment against talking about "less classic" machines comes from the fact that the traffic on the list is growing and the possible subject matter is getting thicker, not thinner, all the time, simply because technology keeps developing. I agree with Jay's assessment that "classic" does not necessarily mean "old" or vice versa, and I agree with Zane's admonition that we cannot limit the field to what a 40-year-old would consider "classic". There's a balance to be struck and it will probably come with consensus, tempered with spice from the listowner. I would eventually look for this list to be split into "eras" for those more interested in specific time periods and/or technologies. Many car lists have done similar -- broken into generations, particular makes, etc. I don't think segmenting the list into a million shards is in anyone's interest, given how much crossover us collectors have in this field (I'll collect an Apple just as quick as I'll collect a DEC), but I could easily see a "pre-1984" list and a "post-1984" list for those who would rather glean only that subject matter that pertains to their particular hobby interests. Nathan -- ------------------------------------- www.nathanpralle.com ------------------------------------- From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 29 13:57:14 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:57:14 -0400 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) References: <200608291759.k7THxwme013014@onyx.spiritone.com> <001e01c6cb97$d6696750$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <00a301c6cb9c$f17940b0$0b01a8c0@game> What I want to know is which platforms from the following list are allowed on this email list (my collecting preference): Timex 2068 Commodore machines Atari 800/ST Apple IIgs Amiga machines (68K) Mac (68K) X86 (from my Tandy 1000HX ending at 486 VLB systems and Windows 3.11) Software and hardware for the above system along with associated problems/repairs. Is somebody going to have a cow if I bring up not so common Desqview/X or Norton Desktop for Windows questions since those are for X86 system? Also newer exotic hardware (like high end video capture hardware for example) that is not common. During the 10 year rule I think everything listed was OK, now I am not so sure. If the list is reverting back to nothing but big iron let me know and I will go away. From spc at conman.org Tue Aug 29 11:36:15 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:36:15 -0400 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F36482.2000704@dakotacom.net> References: <200608282122.k7SLMCdq025195@onyx.spiritone.com> <44F36482.2000704@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <20060829163614.GF129@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Don once stated: > > Even in the limit case (i.e. only one application exists with which you > could use to "open" *all* JPEGs), is there still any reason why you > need to name a file: > > PictureOfUsSkiing. > > Granted, you might have: > > Skiing. // i.e. photo > Skiing. // i.e. spreadsheet > Skiing. // i.e. invitation to ski trip > ... > > But, they could still all be *called* "Skiing" -- with some > other attribute (e.g. file creator) that actually differentiates > them. Heh. About ten years ago I got into a similar discussion with some friends about this, and even designed a file system that not only could support user added metadata, but even the concept of a "name" was fluid (you could actually use an audio clip as the "name", or a graphic). It would also allow one to "cd" into a jpeg (for instance) and see all the segments that make up a JPEG file (once you concede that a directory is nothing more than a special file that "points" or "contains" other files, then this type of stuff just kind of falls out) or even "cd" into an executable and see the code and data segments (which means no special tools required to support "fat" binaries, and if you want to strip out the 68K code portions because you're on an x86 platform, you can use the regular delete command from the shell, stuff like that). But how would I copy a file "named" to some other system, like Unix? It's a source file containing C code, but the metadata includes the latest version number, which project it belongs to, the owner (me), and an extensive list of changes to the file since it was first created. > So, I'm still wondering *why* this came to be (hence the > historical reference) Probably had something to do with the popularity of Unix and MS-DOS. Unix started out treating files as a stream (or bag) of bytes---no structure was implied or enforced by the operating system and from what I understand, at the time that was pretty revolutionary. I'm also guessing that at the time, you really only had three different types of files (excluding the special device files)---executables, object code and text files. And even *if* you wanted to waste some disk space on tracking file type information, how much space do you set aside in the inode for such information? (my guess is that at the time, the creators of Unix didn't think such information was all that important and besides, with 14 character file names, why not just let convention win and stick the "type" as an extension?) Now, shuffle over to CP/M (precursor to MS-DOS) and there, the three letter extension *is* the file type---in all the documentation I've read about CP/M, the three character extension is used to designate the file type (and said extention restricted to the letters 'A' through 'Z' (and any trailing space)). It was a separate field from the name (which was eight characters long if I recall). MS-DOS picked up on this, and yes, if you check the documentation for MS-DOS, the three letter extention is again a separate field in the directory listing, and it followed the same restrictions as CP/M. So MS-DOS *does* store file type information in the directory entry (however restricted it is). Now, this metainformation about the file is easy to carry across between systems (like Unix, and even the Macintosh) if you tack on the extension as part of the "name" of the file. So, if you move a file "vacation.jpg" from Unix (which doesn't care what type of file it is) to MS-DOS, automagically it gets the *type* when copied (JPEG image file). It's harder if this metainformation is stored as something else (like the 4 byte type field on the Macintosh---not sure what it's called exactly). So, on a Mac you have the file "vacation" but the type is (as an example) 0x4A504547. It's meaningless on Unix, and it's a value that won't fit into the MS-DOS extension field. BeOS (on topic actually) had a very cool system whereby the user could attach arbitrary meta information to a file, and the file types were stored as MIME types (so "vacation" would have a type of "image/jpeg"). But again, how can one transfer user added metadata of a file to another system? -spc (So it just kind of evolved that the file type is tacked on to the end of the file name.) From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Aug 29 14:08:58 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:08:58 -0400 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <200608291759.k7THxwme013014@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <000401c6cb87$11a5f470$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060829141355.03b99618@mail.30below.com> Jay, I've tried the "latter", and hopefully you've calmed down a few Kelvin... ;-) [[ I recognized that as my post... ]] Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words: > > A 10-year-rule is not a principle. It made sense in 1997. It doesn't make > > sense now. > >Wrong. The 10 year rule still makes sense. Maybe, to you. Maybe not, to others. Maybe something completely off the frelling wall to someone else. Fact is, *it doesn't matter.* It's Jay's list now, has been for quite a long while, and _for that long while_ he's done a phenomenal job doing it. If Jay states that the new list charter is only blue computers made in February 1985 are ontopic, I'll paint my Tandy 200 blue & stay on the list. I'll prolly be talking to myself, but that's nothing new. ;-) OK Everybody, with rhythm this time: "It's Jay's List. He Sets the Rules! All Hail Jay!!!" [[ I have *not* filled my weekly sarcasm quota yet - and it's imperative I do as I now have my Sarcasm Journeyman's Card! ]] > What you are saying is that no >new systems will be added, and that this is a dying hobby. No, he's saying that a hard-fast rule of "Anything 10 years old is ontopic" doesn't work anymore. If this list denigrates to a Win95 support group, I'll bolt faster than greased pig; and I was one of the first 10 people here! If I was able to get BeOS running on a Mikrotik Router, even if it's offtopic, he'd prolly not complain; as it's not the "current state of technology." And, if you're saying that Win95 isn't "current state" remember: most of WinXP's installer has the same code base as Win3.1 - just prettied up. M$ Vista finally has a 32-bit installer [[ I guess they've finally gotten around to the last thing not bloated up!!! ]] > This group is *SUPPOSED* to platform neutral, but what >I'm seeing here amounts to bigotry. It's not the platform (think "what you stand on" i.e. hardware) he's got a problem with - it's the current (Consumer) OSs. He's already stated he has *no problem* with MS-DOS/PC-DOS questions; but Win95 *isn't classic* - at least certainly not yet. My '04 Avalanche is worlds ahead of my old '92 extended cab 4x4 - but that doesn't make the _older_ truck classic just because I've upgraded. Now, my '76 flatbed may be a different story... Assuming I read Jay's comments correctly, if I post a question on how to get MS-DOS 3.3 running on my dual-core Athlon, it's perfectly ontopic due to the (current) unorthodox nature of the OS. Lest I rehash this one last time: By the hard-fast 10 year rule, my *Amiga* is still currently offtopic... AAMAF, by the 10-year rule, I think Win98 might supposedly be ontopic before my Amiga will. This is not my concept of "classic." I still know a *lot* of people running Win98 - what's Win98 other than a way for M$ to sell a more-fully-patched Win95 *all over again?* It's still "current state technology" and isn't "classic". Might I add so people don't think I'm M$ bashing - I would think that any linux kernel 2.x or recent versions of BSD are offtopic as well... Win95 is *way* too current to be classic, and won't be until it's considered unorthodox instead of the standard. I'm not really angry at *you* (So if I come across that way, I apologize!) - but I am angry about the fact that despite our protestations, the decisions lie solely in Jay's hands; and all our blathering just fans the flames, but doesn't make a whit of difference; and might just upset him to the point of quitting... where would we be then??? If *anyone* thinks I'm "full of condensed milk" *please* send any LARTs or brickbats offlist. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From spc at conman.org Tue Aug 29 11:42:33 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:42:33 -0400 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F45B40.50907@dakotacom.net> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> <200608290649.CAA09130@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44F45B40.50907@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <20060829164233.GG129@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Don once stated: > > Imagine the (cough) elegance of being able to type: > $ foo.c // to compile foo > $ foo.o // to link foo > $ foo // to run foo > (neglecting the means of actually *writing* foo! :< ) Nice for single file projects, but my current pet project consists of 47 source files and 38 object files. I don't think your scheme scales 8-P -spc (But it's a nice idea ... ) From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 29 14:13:09 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:13:09 -0500 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) References: <200608291759.k7THxwme013014@onyx.spiritone.com><001e01c6cb97$d6696750$6700a8c0@BILLING> <00a301c6cb9c$f17940b0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <001201c6cb9f$2a709e20$6700a8c0@BILLING> Teo wrote... > What I want to know is which platforms from the following list are allowed > on this email list (my collecting preference): > > Timex 2068 Yes > Commodore machines Yes > Atari 800/ST Yes > Apple IIgs Yes > Amiga machines (68K) Yes > Mac (68K) Yes > X86 (from my Tandy 1000HX ending at 486 VLB systems and Windows 3.11) This is too wide of a specification you give, but in general, the answer is Yes > Software and hardware for the above system along with associated > problems/repairs. Yes, of course. > Is somebody going to have a cow if I bring up not so common Desqview/X or > Norton Desktop for Windows questions since those are for X86 system? I'd say discussion of Desqview on older machines is OK. > Also newer exotic hardware (like high end video capture hardware for > example) that is not common. Exotic does not equal classic. Uncommon does not equal classic. So the answer is "I don't know because there isn't enough information". This is not a yes, nor is it to be taken as a no. > During the 10 year rule I think everything listed was OK, now I am not so > sure. > > If the list is reverting back to nothing but big iron let me know and I > will > go away. Good god, the sky is not falling. Just because not everyone seems to "get it", let me be clear. This is NOT an attempt to keep out non-DEC or non-MINI computers. Geeze! C64 is welcome. Sinclair is welcome. SWTPC is welcome. Some calculators are welcome. As everyone knows, DEC mini's aren't exactly my #1 favorite machine. I have a failed 11/45 restoration I'd just as soon throw out in the trash at this point. Guess what, I also have a lot of Heathkit and Apple.... it's a question of "classic", not size, age, weight, or list owners preference. Many people seem to assume this is an attempt to keep out Windows & Intel. It isn't. It is an attempt to keep out non-classic systems. I just don't find Windows (in general, there are exceptions) as "classic" yet. Someday maybe it will be. I don't have a crystal ball to fortell the future. But I do know it isn't classic today. Hope that helps. From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Aug 29 14:22:08 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:22:08 -0400 Subject: CCtalk "rules" etc. Message-ID: <01C6CB7F.01124EE0@MSE_D03> --------------Original message: Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:20:40 -0400 From: "Evan Koblentz" Subject: RE: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) For the record, I think Jay is doing a GREAT job, and more people who might be intimidated by this thread but who agree should speak up and say so. ---------------Reply: Not intimidated, just didn't want to add any more to the noise, but yes, count me in as someone who thinks Jay is doing a great job! Also kudos to the moderators who give their time to separate the wheat from the chaff, which wouldn't be necessary if people would remember what the real purpose of this list is, specifically mutual assistance and support of and preservation of things related to "classic" computers. And thanks to all the people wading through the cr*p who have the sense to refrain from joining in. A 10 year rule makes little sense to me; by that criterion every generic beige box I pass sitting on the curb would qualify; on the other hand there were DOS & Windows machines which I _would_ consider classics. Why all this obsession about "rules"? Although there are doubtlessly some subjective differences of opinion, I think everyone on this list has a pretty good idea of what's classic and what's not; is common sense and a little self-control really in such short supply here? C'mon guys, let's be a little more "professional" and keep (make?) this list refreshingly different from most of the other noisy lists out there. And remember that some people have to pay connection charges, and that every time someone gets annoyed enough to unsubscribe that's potentially a resource lost to all of us. mike From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 29 14:28:35 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:28:35 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <20060829164233.GG129@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> <200608290649.CAA09130@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44F45B40.50907@dakotacom.net> <20060829164233.GG129@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <44F49563.6090009@dakotacom.net> Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Don once stated: >> Imagine the (cough) elegance of being able to type: >> $ foo.c // to compile foo >> $ foo.o // to link foo >> $ foo // to run foo >> (neglecting the means of actually *writing* foo! :< ) > > Nice for single file projects, but my current pet project consists of 47 > source files and 38 object files. I don't think your scheme scales 8-P > > -spc (But it's a nice idea ... ) It was offered "tongue-in-cheek" -- i.e. isn't this what modern GUI's effectively are doing? And, also, to illustrate how ludicrous distilling everything about a file "type" to an N-character "extension" is, in practice. E.g., how do you link foo.o vs. bar.o (since each may require different libraries, etc.) I.e. type needs to be finer grained than silly N *character* file "extensions"... *everyone* wants to be "DOC", or some other pronounceable extension. So, the file types lose their value (e.g., on my W2K box, Matlab and Mathematica both want to use .m -- so, .m files are meaningless to me since I can't recall FROM THE NAME OF THE FILE which application needs to be opened to process the file). MacOS *seems* to have had the right idea (though I have never used it "seriously" to know for sure). From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Tue Aug 29 14:27:50 2006 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:27:50 +0100 Subject: Role of OS in filesystem (was "File types") In-Reply-To: <44F48643.6010808@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <000601c6cba1$374aa5d0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> > But, none of this answers the query of "Why file type information > has migrated into the file name"... :> (persistent, eh? :>) Probably because in RT-11/CPM/DOS/(most unix) there is/was no where else to keep it (except within the main body of the file itself which would then mean that any application that touched the file would have to be aware of it). > To me, having "something" (IMO, *above* the filesystem) that > tracks the "type" of a file -- for the benefit of users *of* > that file -- is a desireable adjunct *to* the OS. There is a lot to be said for the NTFS approach of allowing any number of file attributes to be stored along with the file (pretty much a generalisation of the Mac "forks") and accessible to anything that "needs to know". But then hardly any software actually supported this feature and copying a file could silently lose vital information. > > [though, having made these arguments, I am building support > for that mechanism *within* my OS -- since it is a key service > that all apps *must* use, in my case :< ] Yep, I think we agree more than we disagree - but a polite public argument can always be a pleasant relaxation. I'm just amused by the way that 30+ years after Unix drasticly simplified the powerful Multics filesystem, most of it has been reinvented. Now if we just added-in the automatic migration of files that George 3 had 40 years ago and automatic file generation management as ICL had then and VAX had from its outset ... [but then I'm drifting off your topic, again] [and I've no idea why my ISP's mail server decided to flag your message as SPAM!] Andy From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 29 14:25:37 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:25:37 -0400 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) References: <200608291759.k7THxwme013014@onyx.spiritone.com> <001e01c6cb97$d6696750$6700a8c0@BILLING> <00a301c6cb9c$f17940b0$0b01a8c0@game> <001201c6cb9f$2a709e20$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <00ba01c6cba0$e81abc70$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 3:13 PM Subject: Re: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) > Teo wrote... > > What I want to know is which platforms from the following list are allowed > > on this email list (my collecting preference): > > > > Timex 2068 > Yes > > Commodore machines > Yes > > Atari 800/ST > Yes > > Apple IIgs > Yes > > Amiga machines (68K) > Yes > > Mac (68K) > Yes > > X86 (from my Tandy 1000HX ending at 486 VLB systems and Windows 3.11) > This is too wide of a specification you give, but in general, the answer is > Yes > > > Software and hardware for the above system along with associated > > problems/repairs. > Yes, of course. > > > Is somebody going to have a cow if I bring up not so common Desqview/X or > > Norton Desktop for Windows questions since those are for X86 system? > I'd say discussion of Desqview on older machines is OK. > > > Also newer exotic hardware (like high end video capture hardware for > > example) that is not common. > Exotic does not equal classic. Uncommon does not equal classic. So the > answer is "I don't know because there isn't enough information". This is not > a yes, nor is it to be taken as a no. > > > During the 10 year rule I think everything listed was OK, now I am not so > > sure. > > > > If the list is reverting back to nothing but big iron let me know and I > > will > > go away. > Good god, the sky is not falling. Just because not everyone seems to "get > it", let me be clear. This is NOT an attempt to keep out non-DEC or non-MINI > computers. Geeze! C64 is welcome. Sinclair is welcome. SWTPC is welcome. > Some calculators are welcome. As everyone knows, DEC mini's aren't exactly > my #1 favorite machine. I have a failed 11/45 restoration I'd just as soon > throw out in the trash at this point. Guess what, I also have a lot of > Heathkit and Apple.... it's a question of "classic", not size, age, weight, > or list owners preference. Many people seem to assume this is an attempt to > keep out Windows & Intel. It isn't. It is an attempt to keep out non-classic > systems. I just don't find Windows (in general, there are exceptions) as > "classic" yet. Someday maybe it will be. I don't have a crystal ball to > fortell the future. But I do know it isn't classic today. > > Hope that helps. Yes, it helps. I figured since I was not sure where this was all going I would get it clarified atleast for my interests. From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Aug 29 14:27:22 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:27:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <00a301c6cb9c$f17940b0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <20060829192722.E5E2C58565@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Teo Zenios > > What I want to know is which platforms from the following list are allowed > on this email list (my collecting preference): > > Timex 2068 > Commodore machines > Atari 800/ST > Apple IIgs > Amiga machines (68K) > Mac (68K) > X86 (from my Tandy 1000HX ending at 486 VLB systems and Windows 3.11) > Software and hardware for the above system along with associated > problems/repairs. Speaking of software and hardware for those machines, what about *new* software and hardware programmed / created for vintage systems? For instance, Mike Loewen had a card reader interfaced to his laptop via USB port at the last VCF east. That demonstation did a great job of showing me how punch cards were used. Cheers, Bryan > Is somebody going to have a cow if I bring up not so common Desqview/X or > Norton Desktop for Windows questions since those are for X86 system? > > Also newer exotic hardware (like high end video capture hardware for > example) that is not common. > > During the 10 year rule I think everything listed was OK, now I am not so > sure. > > If the list is reverting back to nothing but big iron let me know and I will > go away. > > > From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Aug 29 14:31:19 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:31:19 -0400 Subject: CCtalk "rules" etc. Message-ID: <01C6CB80.52F6DB80@MSE_D03> And if you want to argue with Jay about what you think this list should be, why not take it off-list. m From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Aug 29 14:38:36 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:38:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <20060829192722.E5E2C58565@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060829192722.E5E2C58565@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Aug 2006, Bryan Pope wrote: > Speaking of software and hardware for those machines, what > about *new* software and hardware programmed / created for vintage > systems? For instance, Mike Loewen had a card reader interfaced to > his laptop via USB port at the last VCF east. That demonstation did > a great job of showing me how punch cards were used. I want to make sure credit goes where credit is due. Brian Knittel designed the interface and the software: I just built it. :-) It garnered quite a few doubletakes when people realized it wasn't a parallel printer port. http://ibm1130.org/sim/downloads/cardread.zip Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 29 14:39:47 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:39:47 -0500 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) References: <20060829192722.E5E2C58565@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <006101c6cba2$fb2a1f20$6700a8c0@BILLING> Brian wrote... > Speaking of software and hardware for those machines, what > about *new* software and hardware programmed / created for vintage > systems? For instance, Mike Loewen had a card reader interfaced to > his laptop via USB port at the last VCF east. That demonstation did > a great job of showing me how punch cards were used. Absolutely completely on-topic. Sure, it involves a modern USB sporting laptop. But obviously the focus is classic computer related (punched cards are obviously classic, and there was likely a mediapreservation/educational component as well). Also on-topic is software and/or hardware emulators of classic computers, interfacing modern peripherals to old systems, interfacing old peripherals to modern systems, etc. Also on-topic is electronics discussion directly related to repair and/or theory/understanding, cleaning methods, procurement, etc. etc. Jay From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 29 14:57:58 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 12:57:58 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <20060829163614.GF129@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <200608282122.k7SLMCdq025195@onyx.spiritone.com> <44F36482.2000704@dakotacom.net> <20060829163614.GF129@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <44F49C46.9000101@dakotacom.net> Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Don once stated: >> Even in the limit case (i.e. only one application exists with which you >> could use to "open" *all* JPEGs), is there still any reason why you >> need to name a file: >> >> PictureOfUsSkiing. >> >> Granted, you might have: >> >> Skiing. // i.e. photo >> Skiing. // i.e. spreadsheet >> Skiing. // i.e. invitation to ski trip >> ... >> >> But, they could still all be *called* "Skiing" -- with some >> other attribute (e.g. file creator) that actually differentiates >> them. > > Heh. About ten years ago I got into a similar discussion with some > friends about this, and even designed a file system that not only could > support user added metadata, but even the concept of a "name" was fluid (you > could actually use an audio clip as the "name", or a graphic). It would > also allow one to "cd" into a jpeg (for instance) and see all the segments > that make up a JPEG file (once you concede that a directory is nothing more > than a special file that "points" or "contains" other files, then this type > of stuff just kind of falls out) or even "cd" into an executable and see the > code and data segments (which means no special tools required to support > "fat" binaries, and if you want to strip out the 68K code portions because > you're on an x86 platform, you can use the regular delete command from the > shell, stuff like that). Excellent! In my case, directories are active objects and the "file system" is really more appropriately called the "name space". Since directories are active, the operations that can be applied to a directory (i.e. that the directory applies to *itself*) can be unconventional. And, the objects that it can "contain" (reference?) can be quite varied. E.g., some objects may be "volatile", others "static", etc. > But how would I copy a file "named" to some > other system, like Unix? It's a source file containing C code, but the > metadata includes the latest version number, which project it belongs to, > the owner (me), and an extensive list of changes to the file since it was > first created. This would be the problem of the "export method". E.g., how does a digital camera copy it's files to your $computer? In the camera, there is no notion of JPEG, TIFF, etc. They are just values from a CCD stored in memory in some convenient order for the hardware to generate and process. Obviously (?), the data isn't represented internally *as* a JPEG *before* image processing is done (e.g., jitter reduction, color compensation, etc.). Rather, JPEG is just "an acceptable way" of exporting the data (rather than some other oddball format that might require the user to run some "converter" on the data prior to use). >> So, I'm still wondering *why* this came to be (hence the >> historical reference) > > Probably had something to do with the popularity of Unix and MS-DOS. Unix > started out treating files as a stream (or bag) of bytes---no structure was > implied or enforced by the operating system and from what I understand, at > the time that was pretty revolutionary. I'm also guessing that at the time, > you really only had three different types of files (excluding the special > device files)---executables, object code and text files. And even *if* you But, even "text files" have different types. E.g., shell scripts are "different" than "ascii text". (and this is determined by inspecting the file's *contents*, not *name*!) > wanted to waste some disk space on tracking file type information, how much > space do you set aside in the inode for such information? (my guess is that > at the time, the creators of Unix didn't think such information was all that > important and besides, with 14 character file names, why not just let > convention win and stick the "type" as an extension?) But you're already using 2 - 4 bytes in the inode to track this type! I.e., '.' followed by 1 - 3 (or more) characters of extension. And, for all practical purposes, you are poorly utilizing those 4 bytes! The first conveys no information other than "an extension follows". And, of the 1 - 3 (typical) that follow, you really only see 36^3 different file "types" (i.e. case neutral, and typically only alphanumerics). So, you're storing 46656 data types in a field that could store 4294967296. (i.e. you could use 2 bytes instead of the 4 you are using) > Now, shuffle over to CP/M (precursor to MS-DOS) and there, the three > letter extension *is* the file type---in all the documentation I've read > about CP/M, the three character extension is used to designate the file > type (and said extention restricted to the letters 'A' through 'Z' (and > any trailing space)). It was a separate field from the name (which was > eight characters long if I recall). MS-DOS picked up on this, and yes, if > you check the documentation for MS-DOS, the three letter extention is again > a separate field in the directory listing, and it followed the same > restrictions as CP/M. But CP/M didn't *do* anything with the file extension (for all practical purposes). I.e. you could have a test file called foo.foo and your text editor would gladly open it. If an *application* wanted to insist on particular file extensions then it could do so -- usually pissing you off in the process ("No, Editor, I am writing an INCLUDE file, I want to name foo.inc *not* foo.doc") > So MS-DOS *does* store file type information in the directory entry > (however restricted it is). > > Now, this metainformation about the file is easy to carry across between > systems (like Unix, and even the Macintosh) if you tack on the extension as > part of the "name" of the file. So, if you move a file "vacation.jpg" from > Unix (which doesn't care what type of file it is) to MS-DOS, automagically > it gets the *type* when copied (JPEG image file). This, IMO, is the only "real" reason that file type has migrated into the namespace. It lets everyone avoid the issue of moving files between systems by simply stating that files are *just* bytes -- even if your applications think otherwise. I.e. if your MS machine doesn't know what .HQX means, . > It's harder if this metainformation is stored as something else (like the > 4 byte type field on the Macintosh---not sure what it's called exactly). > So, on a Mac you have the file "vacation" but the type is (as an example) > 0x4A504547. It's meaningless on Unix, and it's a value that won't fit into > the MS-DOS extension field. > > BeOS (on topic actually) had a very cool system whereby the user could > attach arbitrary meta information to a file, and the file types were stored > as MIME types (so "vacation" would have a type of "image/jpeg"). But again, It still doesn't address the issue raised by an earlier respondant (i.e. tagging files for special treatment on open) but that could be done by fabricating your own file type. > how can one transfer user added metadata of a file to another system? This would be worth looking into. Does BeOS run on "special" hardware? > -spc (So it just kind of evolved that the file type is tacked on to the > end of the file name.) From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 29 15:09:43 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:09:43 -0700 Subject: Role of OS in filesystem (was "File types") In-Reply-To: <000601c6cba1$374aa5d0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> References: <000601c6cba1$374aa5d0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: <44F49F07.2060105@dakotacom.net> Andy Holt wrote: >> But, none of this answers the query of "Why file type information >> has migrated into the file name"... :> (persistent, eh? :>) > > Probably because in RT-11/CPM/DOS/(most unix) there is/was no where else to > keep it (except within the main body of the file itself which would then > mean that any application that touched the file would have to be aware of > it). Note my point that the OS shouldn't *care* (IMHO) about the type. E.g., nowadays, this information is typically used by The Desktop. So, why can't The Desktop assume responsibility for maintaining it? Using whatever mechanisms *it* deems efficient. >> To me, having "something" (IMO, *above* the filesystem) that >> tracks the "type" of a file -- for the benefit of users *of* >> that file -- is a desireable adjunct *to* the OS. > > There is a lot to be said for the NTFS approach of allowing any number of > file attributes to be stored along with the file (pretty much a Hmm.. I was unaware that NT did this. I thought it just embellished the ACL's, etc. > generalisation of the Mac "forks") and accessible to anything that "needs to > know". But then hardly any software actually supported this feature and > copying a file could silently lose vital information. > >> [though, having made these arguments, I am building support >> for that mechanism *within* my OS -- since it is a key service >> that all apps *must* use, in my case :< ] > > Yep, I think we agree more than we disagree - but a polite public argument > can always be a pleasant relaxation. As I have stated previously, "collecting" is not my interest. Rather, I see older machines as "lost ideas". Some ideas probably *should* have been lost (e.g., Harvard architecture, non-binary radixes, etc.) but others appear to have been *unfortunately* lost. My point in starting this thread was to decide which category this idea falls into :-/ > I'm just amused by the way that 30+ years after Unix drasticly simplified > the powerful Multics filesystem, most of it has been reinvented. Exactly! Given another 10 years, we'll return, once again, to the "mainframe with terminals" model that the industry revisits almost as regularly as the four seasons! (though the role of The Mainframe will now be played by The Internet) > Now if we just added-in the automatic migration of files that George 3 had > 40 years ago and automatic file generation management as ICL had then and > VAX had from its outset ... > [but then I'm drifting off your topic, again] > [and I've no idea why my ISP's mail server decided to flag your message as > SPAM!] Maybe it *is*!! ;-) From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Tue Aug 29 15:11:25 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:11:25 -0600 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives Message-ID: <44F49F6D.6020700@rogerwilco.org> For the DEC uVAX gurus out there... [And, first, let me apologize up front for the length of this post, but as mostly a list skulker (of about 9 months), and a digest reader, I figured I'd toss in as many relevent details as I could.] Being the fortunate recipient of a nice collection of DEC gear, I've now turned my attention to a handful of uVAXen of various flavors. As I did with the PDP-11 RL cartridges, I'm first trying to image these uVAXen disks[1] before I do something stupid. Please be aware that I'm a complete VAX newbie and I consider this imaging a vital CYA insurance step to my eventual VAX/VMS/ULTRIX/BSD education. Since I don't have (at least to my knowledge, yet) a functional VAX that might do the trick, I've removed each drive and attached it to a known working WD1002-WA2 controller [2] running on a 40Mhz 386 box, with Debian Linux. I'm just using the dd command to image the drive to a file, which I'll burn off to a CD when I've got everything imaged. The reason I'm using such old hardware is a long story [3], but I have tested and proved this setup's functionality by imaging three MFM drives from old PC-class system.with no difficulty. Which brings me to the DEC-related drives. After adjusting the Drive Select (set to drive 2, per IBM's twisted cable 'standard') and Write Fault (if extant) jumpers, *none* of the DEC-related drives are recognized by my test rig. I always get a "C: drive error / Press to RESUME" message. The drive's ready light is on, and all looks and sounds normal. For kicks, if I boot linux and try my dd command, it croaks with this type of message: hda: read_intr: status=0x59 { DriveReady SeekComplete DataRequest Error } hda: read_intr: error=0x10 { SectorIdNotFound }, CHS=0/0/1, sector 0 I get the same type of results when I use dd's seek=n option to other blocks (sectors). Strangely, it almost appears that there is no low level format on the drives, doesn't it? I'm not smart enough to make that call though, and it seems strange that *all three* drives show this same result. Is it possible that the original owner somehow 'bulk erased' the drives? I did, at least, expect to find formating marks. Is there something I've missed, trying to image these 'DEC' drives? Did I miss some not-so-obvious jumper somewhere (though I diligently examined all documentation I could find)? Surely, they're just good-ol' MFM drives, right? Jared [1] I'm imaging three different drive types: RD23-A (71MB Micropolis 1325), RD54 (159MB Maxtor XT-2190), and a Rodime RO-202 11MB drive from an AED WINC-08/05 RX01/RL02 emulation system. [2] Yes, I still have every computer I've ever owned, including two AT-class 286 machines made by Novell in the mid 80's. [3] Attempting to use the WD1002-WA2 in two different and more modern PC motherboards with onboard IDE interfaces proved a no go. Even after disabling the IDE controller (both primary and secondary) and the floppy controller in the BIOS there were some general flakiness, and I couldn't ever get the systems to recognize the MFM controller. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 29 15:21:09 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <001e01c6cb97$d6696750$6700a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Aug 29, 2006 01:20:32 PM Message-ID: <200608292021.k7TKL93n016987@onyx.spiritone.com> > I'm trying really hard to reach out and maintain composure.... It is appreciated, and I hope you can see the point that myself and several others are trying to get across. Please bare with my rambling in this email. I'm trying to illustrate a point :^) I would like to emphasis that I am not trying to pick a fight here. If anyone feels that way, or feels like firing back a flame, please go do something else for an hour or two. If you still feel the need to reply, try to let logic rather than emotion dictate what you write. Let me start by saying that what I right below is based on my perception that the crux of this issue is that if the "10 year rule" is in effect, then Pentiums and Windows 95 are on-topic. > Zane wrote.... > > Wrong. The 10 year rule still makes sense. What you are saying is that > > no > > new systems will be added, and that this is a dying hobby. > Wrong. Just because I said the "10 year rule" is no longer active on the > list, does NOT mean that in it's place is a firm year cutoff instead. > NEITHER are acceptable. Even in the beginning the "10 year rule" wasn't considered to be perfect, it was a compromise. It was also recognized that an arbitrary cut-off at 10 years was bad, as systems newer than 10 years could be considered a classic. Many here would consider even the newer SGI MIPS-based systems to be classics, and unusual/rare enough to be at least semi-OT. Plus most discussion related to even a Tezro would be largely applicable to an ontopic SGI system. At the same time, I for one consider the original dual CPU G5 PowerMac's to be a classic. They are both a work of art, and a seriously impressive piece of hardware. However, realistically they aren't on-topic. At the same time, perhaps a G4 running Mac OS 9 could be considered to be at least slightly on-topic. Is an Amiga 1 with a pre-release version of Amiga OS 4 on-topic or off-topic? Would it be considered a classic or not? It has also been pointed out that some Amiga systems such as the A4000T were made as recently as at least 1998. I personally don't consider a Sun workstation a classic, I consider it a workhorse. I'm sure there are plenty here that disagree. At the same time I consider at least all pre-PCI Sun HW to be ontopic for this list. Shoot, I don't even consider most (if not all VAXen) to be classics! They're still widely used in businesses, and after the MicroVAX II, I for one don't find the hardware that interesting. I do however, think that they are great for supporting systems I do consider to be classics, namely PDP-11's. BTW, I run a VAX 24x7. I could go on, but I should hope this point is clear. The point is, what is a "Classic" Computer is different from one person to the next once you remove the "10 year rule". With the "10 year rule" it's easy to say something is a classic, without it, lets face it, that is a whole different arguement. > > Just because the > > majority of us have no interest in a 10 year old PC, or Windows 95/NT4 is > > no > > reason to change one of the founding principles of this list. > You have to separate the concept of "age" and "classic". No one is changing > anything actually. The intent was to have a place to talk about "classic" > computers, not just 10 year old computers. Win95 I don't believe is > "classic". I suspect it won't be for a long long time, maybe never, I don't > know. But something over X years old isn't automatically classic. It's just > old. Classic is something apart from age. To at least a sizable portion of this list, or at least the vocal portion, including myself don't think of "Windows 95" as a classic. I personally hated Windows 95. I personally never could keep a system running it for more than a few months without it eating itself. It was the reason I switched to the Mac. Still it is a piece of computing history and should be considered a Classic. This is like saying that a '57 Chevy isn't a classic because you don't like Chevy's. Since cars seem such an appropriate analogy here, I'll use them some more. Let me start by saying that when I was younger, I thought 70's cars were *UGLY*. To me a car from the 70's isn't a classic (shoot both my Dad and I still drive trucks from the 70's). Yet, time has passed, and 70's cars are now considered to be classics. Even I have to admit that compared to some of the new systems, those cars from the 70's that are treated as classics (you know the ones that are lovingly cared for as a classic), are beautiful cars. I gather that after about 25-30 years a car can be considered a "Classic". When a person buys a car, I assume the average person expects to get at least 6-10 years out of it. When you buy a new computer, the average lifespan is more like 2-4 years. On a home computer, if it is any older than 5 years and you're going to start having problems running the modern software. As such I maintain that the 10 years is still a pretty good date for declaring a computer to be a "classic". Still with cars, how much difference is there between a 25-30 year old vehicle, and a brand new one? Some things that were high-end are now the norm. Everything seems to be computer controlled, and they're pretty much made of plastic rather than metal. Now lets look at a PC of 10 years ago vs. today. Both are fairly average. I'll even mention a few technologies that have come and gone during that time frame). I added in the web browser as lets face it, the web is now the computer to a lot of people. Pentium Core 2 Duo (gone are countless processor families) 72-pin SIMMs DDR2 (gone are the plain DIMM's and Rambus) IDE HD SATA2 HD CD-ROM Dual Layer DVD Burner (gone are plain CD-R burners) PCI Video PCI-E Video (Gone is AGP) PS/2, Serial, and Parallel USB2.0 & Firewire 14-15" CRT 17-21" LCD (often widescreen) Maybe 10Mbit Gigabit 14.4k-~36k Broadband Windows 95 Windows XP (gone are 98, ME, and 2000) Maybe early web browser Firefox 2.0 beta or IE7 beta (again countless gone) Desktop main/ Probably a good split between desktops and laptops, plus Laptop rare things such as thin clients, and "Media Center PC's" While a PC is a PC is a PC seems to be the common view here (I've even said it in explaining why I don't collect them), the fact is, it isn't true. I didn't even realize how much change in the PC market there has been in the last 10 years until I started writting this up. By comparison to a current system, a lowly Pentium computer is a primative beast indeed. Why doesn't this antique deserve to take it's rightful place as a "Classic"? I think almost everyone here has a favorite platform, and it is almost always something other than a PC. How many here are objecting to the idea of a Pentium as a classic because the PC killed their favorite platform. Now please stop, and think about what I said before you even consider replying. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 29 15:28:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:28:07 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F49563.6090009@dakotacom.net> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> <200608290649.CAA09130@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44F45B40.50907@dakotacom.net> <20060829164233.GG129@linus.groomlake.area51> <44F49563.6090009@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608291328070505.149BDDF9@10.0.0.252> On 8/29/2006 at 12:28 PM Don wrote: >I.e. type needs to be finer grained than silly N *character* >file "extensions"... *everyone* wants to be "DOC", or some >other pronounceable extension. So, the file types lose their >value (e.g., on my W2K box, Matlab and Mathematica both want >to use .m -- so, .m files are meaningless to me since I can't >recall FROM THE NAME OF THE FILE which application needs to >be opened to process the file). MacOS *seems* to have had the >right idea (though I have never used it "seriously" to know >for sure). ...and you might add that there are no rules for "extensions". In front of me, I've got a disk with .FW and .PCL files. And no--they don't have anything to do with Frameworks or HP. Neither is listed in Filext.com. Since Windows closed the barn door after the horses ran off, so to speak, the use of extension to identify the application associated with a file is not particularly wonderful. I don't know if it could be dangerous. Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 29 15:45:02 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:45:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: "File types" Message-ID: <200608292045.k7TKj2af045605@keith.ezwind.net> --- Don wrote: > I.e. type needs to be finer grained than silly N > *character* > file "extensions"... *everyone* wants to be "DOC", > or some > other pronounceable extension. So, the file types > lose their > value (e.g., on my W2K box, Matlab and Mathematica > both want > to use .m -- so, .m files are meaningless to me > since I can't > recall FROM THE NAME OF THE FILE which application > needs to > be opened to process the file). MacOS *seems* to > have had the > right idea (though I have never used it "seriously " > to know > for sure). > *raises hand* Why not use a combination of an extension name and internal references within the files data, like the IFF format on the Amiga. eg. Filename: mypic.IFF and then within the first 16 bytes are contained the ASCII "ILBM" and something else (I forget... that's what not having a properly working Amiga does to me!). Not sure why they are spread apart and not the first few bytes. As far as I am concerned it is down to the software to *detect* whether or not the file is the right type, regardless of whether the extension name is correct (eg. IFF stands for Interchange File Format, or something similar, and can have sounds stored in an .IFF file instead of image data). Personally I developed a (lame) .ABI image format for the Amiga last year, and apart from the .ABI extension it has a couple of other ways to detect it is the correct file type - eg. my initials ("ADB") are at the end of the file aswell as something else hidden in the data (that was also included just so I could verify it's *my* file type - I don't want to invent something and have it stolen from me like so many great idea's (not referring to mine now) in the past. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 29 15:40:43 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:40:43 -0700 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <200608292021.k7TKL93n016987@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608292021.k7TKL93n016987@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <44F4A64B.5080304@dakotacom.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > While a PC is a PC is a PC seems to be the common view here (I've even said > it in explaining why I don't collect them), the fact is, it isn't true. I > didn't even realize how much change in the PC market there has been in the > last 10 years until I started writting this up. By comparison to a current > system, a lowly Pentium computer is a primative beast indeed. Why doesn't > this antique deserve to take it's rightful place as a "Classic"? > > I think almost everyone here has a favorite platform, and it is almost > always something other than a PC. How many here are objecting to the idea > of a Pentium as a classic because the PC killed their favorite platform. [my *sole* comment to this thread] I think the 386 is where the "classic" line makes sense to be drawn. It marked the point at which more modern *and* more "classic" software/OS's could migrate to the consumer market (the 8086/8 was too crippled -- though I would consider early PC/AT's classic as well -- and, the 286 didn't have real VM support). The 386 marked a quantum step "up" (whether that step was FORWARD or BACKWARD can be argued by others) From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 29 15:46:59 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:46:59 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608291328070505.149BDDF9@10.0.0.252> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> <200608290649.CAA09130@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44F45B40.50907@dakotacom.net> <20060829164233.GG129@linus.groomlake.area51> <44F49563.6090009@dakotacom.net> <200608291328070505.149BDDF9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44F4A7C3.8060808@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/29/2006 at 12:28 PM Don wrote: > >> I.e. type needs to be finer grained than silly N *character* >> file "extensions"... *everyone* wants to be "DOC", or some >> other pronounceable extension. So, the file types lose their >> value (e.g., on my W2K box, Matlab and Mathematica both want >> to use .m -- so, .m files are meaningless to me since I can't >> recall FROM THE NAME OF THE FILE which application needs to >> be opened to process the file). MacOS *seems* to have had the >> right idea (though I have never used it "seriously" to know >> for sure). > > ...and you might add that there are no rules for "extensions". In front > of me, I've got a disk with .FW and .PCL files. And no--they don't have > anything to do with Frameworks or HP. Neither is listed in Filext.com. Exactly. I have .DAT files that 3 different applications want to claim as their own. About the only "file type" that I have NOT had problems with is ".dgy" :> > Since Windows closed the barn door after the horses ran off, so to speak, > the use of extension to identify the application associated with a file is > not particularly wonderful. I don't know if it could be dangerous. It adds no value, IMO. And, only increases the chance that the *wrong*/unexpected application can be invoked without your being aware of it beforehand (I can list dozens of "extensions" on my W2K box that are ambiguous -- several of which invoke the *wrong* application handler. Hopefully, each of these handlers are smart enough to parse the file given to them to determine if it, in fact *is* a valid file before operating on it. So, the type is merely a convenience for The Desktop. And, IMO, a poorly designed/implemented mechanism. :-( (I *really* need to play with MacOS more and see what the "shortcomings" of their scheme is/was -- aside from file portability) From bdwheele at indiana.edu Tue Aug 29 15:43:30 2006 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:43:30 -0400 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: <44F49F6D.6020700@rogerwilco.org> References: <44F49F6D.6020700@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <1156884210.18293.77.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> On Tue, 2006-08-29 at 14:11 -0600, J Blaser wrote: > For the DEC uVAX gurus out there... > Strangely, it almost appears that there is no low level format on the > drives, doesn't it? I'm not smart enough to make that call though, and > it seems strange that *all three* drives show this same result. Is it > possible that the original owner somehow 'bulk erased' the drives? I > did, at least, expect to find formating marks. > > Is there something I've missed, trying to image these 'DEC' drives? Did > I miss some not-so-obvious jumper somewhere (though I diligently > examined all documentation I could find)? Surely, they're just good-ol' > MFM drives, right? I'm not a guru by any stretch of the imagination, but I know that the RQDX3 controllers wrote a low level format different than RQDX1/2, so its not unlikely that the PC MFM controllers won't be able to read it. That said, you might be able to retrieve the data from there by booting NetBSD on the uVAX and dd'ing out the network (or heavens!) the serial port. You should be able to boot NetBSD without writing anything to the drives. If it has a tape, you could spool out to it and then try reading it on a more PC-happy tape drive. I kinda miss my uVAX II w/RA82 hanging on it :) Not terribly efficient, but it sounded cool. Now if I could get a reasonable PDP-11 that my wife wouldn't object to :) Brian From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Aug 29 15:48:30 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:48:30 -0400 Subject: Philips PM3214 O-scope manual needed Message-ID: <01C6CB8B.1CDA5080@MSE_D03> Any chance someone out there has a manual for this 'scope? (Philips PM3214) Any info greatly appreciated. mike From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 29 15:47:29 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:47:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: <44F49F6D.6020700@rogerwilco.org> from "J Blaser" at Aug 29, 2006 02:11:25 PM Message-ID: <200608292047.k7TKlTCG018044@onyx.spiritone.com> > As I did with the PDP-11 RL cartridges, I'm first trying to image these > uVAXen disks[1] before I do something stupid. Please be aware that I'm > a complete VAX newbie and I consider this imaging a vital CYA insurance > step to my eventual VAX/VMS/ULTRIX/BSD education. Excellent idea, years later, I still regret not *IMMEDIATLY* doing some sort of backup of an RD53 with VAX/VMS 4.x on it that I got with a MicroVAX III. Am I correct in assuming that you don't have any newer hard drives than the MFM drives on these systems? > Since I don't have (at least to my knowledge, yet) a functional VAX that > might do the trick, I've removed each drive and attached it to a known > working WD1002-WA2 controller [2] running on a 40Mhz 386 box, with > Debian Linux. I'm just using the dd command to image the drive to a > file, which I'll burn off to a CD when I've got everything imaged. This idea seems sound to me, although I have *never* heard of anyone attempting this. I have done this with SCSI drives from my PDP-11. I suspect, but this is only a guess, that the issue is the way the DEC MFM drives are formated. There are only two ways that I'm aware of to format an MFM drive for use on a VAX. One is with a MicroVAX/VAXstation 2000 (formatter is built into the ROM's), the other is with the Field Service Diagnostics (customer diagnostics can't format drives). Hopefully someone here as some idea on this, as this is an interesting idea. Zane From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 29 15:49:24 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:49:24 -0400 Subject: Role of OS in filesystem (was "File types") In-Reply-To: <44F49F07.2060105@dakotacom.net> References: <000601c6cba1$374aa5d0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <44F49F07.2060105@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44F4A854.2090304@gmail.com> Don wrote: > Andy Holt wrote: >>> But, none of this answers the query of "Why file type information >>> has migrated into the file name"... :> (persistent, eh? :>) >> >> Probably because in RT-11/CPM/DOS/(most unix) there is/was no where >> else to >> keep it (except within the main body of the file itself which would then >> mean that any application that touched the file would have to be aware of >> it). > > Note my point that the OS shouldn't *care* (IMHO) about the type. > E.g., nowadays, this information is typically used by The Desktop. > So, why can't The Desktop assume responsibility for maintaining it? > Using whatever mechanisms *it* deems efficient. What about stuff like ODS-2, in which the filesystem knows about file structure, and can therefore perform record-oriented operations on the data in the file? The functionality isn't mandatory, but it's powerful. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 29 15:54:21 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:54:21 -0400 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F4A7C3.8060808@dakotacom.net> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> <200608290649.CAA09130@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44F45B40.50907@dakotacom.net> <20060829164233.GG129@linus.groomlake.area51> <44F49563.6090009@dakotacom.net> <200608291328070505.149BDDF9@10.0.0.252> <44F4A7C3.8060808@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44F4A97D.5080608@gmail.com> Don wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 8/29/2006 at 12:28 PM Don wrote: >> >>> I.e. type needs to be finer grained than silly N *character* >>> file "extensions"... *everyone* wants to be "DOC", or some >>> other pronounceable extension. So, the file types lose their >>> value (e.g., on my W2K box, Matlab and Mathematica both want >>> to use .m -- so, .m files are meaningless to me since I can't >>> recall FROM THE NAME OF THE FILE which application needs to >>> be opened to process the file). MacOS *seems* to have had the >>> right idea (though I have never used it "seriously" to know >>> for sure). >> >> ...and you might add that there are no rules for "extensions". In front >> of me, I've got a disk with .FW and .PCL files. And no--they don't have >> anything to do with Frameworks or HP. Neither is listed in Filext.com. > > Exactly. I have .DAT files that 3 different applications want > to claim as their own. About the only "file type" that I > have NOT had problems with is ".dgy" :> That's what happens when you use the filename to store the information instead of a resource fork or something similar. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 29 15:55:49 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:55:49 -0700 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <200608292021.k7TKL93n016987@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608292021.k7TKL93n016987@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200608291355490732.14B53AFB@10.0.0.252> On 8/29/2006 at 1:21 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: >While a PC is a PC is a PC seems to be the common view here (I've even said >it in explaining why I don't collect them), the fact is, it isn't true. I >didn't even realize how much change in the PC market there has been in the >last 10 years until I started writting this up. By comparison to a current >system, a lowly Pentium computer is a primative beast indeed. Why doesn't >this antique deserve to take it's rightful place as a "Classic"? I think that trying to classify something by what's under the hood is a way to madness. I'm looking at two PCs of approximately the same age and processing speed, with the same CPU. One's a Dell desktop box; the other's a Toshiba Infinia 7230. The Dell's just a desktop PC and is unremarkable and perhaps only marginally collectible. The same might be said for the Toshiba, but for one aspect--it was the first PC that I know of that was marketed with much ballyhoo as a do-everything multimedia PC that was never powered off. It has a phone hookup with answering machine software, TV, radio, FAX, and other goodies as part of the standard bundle. It was a colossal failure (Toshiba quit making desktops shortly thereafter), but many might consider it to be historically significant--and therefore unique and a "classic", even if it did run Windows 95. I think we need to be flexible, folks. Cheers, Chuck From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 29 16:00:53 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:00:53 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608292045.k7TKj2af045605@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608292045.k7TKj2af045605@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <44F4AB05.7020207@dakotacom.net> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Why not use a combination of an extension > name and internal references within the files > data, like the IFF format on the Amiga. > > eg. Filename: mypic.IFF > > and then within the first 16 bytes are > contained the ASCII "ILBM" and something else > (I forget... that's what not having a properly > working Amiga does to me!). Not sure why > they are spread apart and not the first few > bytes. Using the extension name *and* something else is just as bad (worse?) IMO as using the extension name itself. You don't call yourself andrew.human.male so why should a file's name have to carry all of that information? E.g., TIFF's can be stored in Moto or Intel byte order (big/little Endian). Why aren't there .TIFFi and .TIFFm extensions to differentiate between the two (ans: because TIFF decoders are smart enough to Do The Right Thing) Adding *superfluous* IN-BAND data just to identify the file type is also A Bad Idea (IMO) as the information is redundant (if the file extension *clearly* is doing it's job, then why do we need to RESTATE all of this information within the file?). And, it requires applications and utilities (e.g., listing a directory's contents) to *open* each file to determine what the file is -- instead of stat()-ing it (somehow). > As far as I am concerned it is down to the > software to *detect* whether or not the > file is the right type, regardless of whether > the extension name is correct (eg. IFF stands > for Interchange File Format, or something > similar, and can have sounds stored in an > .IFF file instead of image data). Sure! But, then you are conceding that the information contained in the file extension is "worthless" :> I have the philosophy that code should protect itself from bad/malicious data. But, other than that, it should be able to trust the data sources that it interacts with. E.g., if someone wants to pass a *humongus* image file to my image decoder, I should correctly decode/display it (subject to the resource constraints imposed on my by the OS at this instant) -- even if it is a 500MB image of a large black rectangle! (or, "white noise") > Personally I developed a (lame) .ABI image > format for the Amiga last year, and apart > from the .ABI extension it has a couple > of other ways to detect it is the correct file > type - eg. my initials ("ADB") are at the end > of the file aswell as something else hidden > in the data (that was also included just so > I could verify it's *my* file type - I don't > want to invent something and have it stolen > from me like so many great idea's (not > referring to mine now) in the past. This means you have to scan the file to verify that it is "that type". Great if your application is the only one looking at those files and you can afford the time to scan them to verify this. But, not an efficient way of handling "file typeS" in general. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 29 16:00:27 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: <1156884210.18293.77.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> from "Brian Wheeler" at Aug 29, 2006 04:43:30 PM Message-ID: <200608292100.k7TL0RWq018693@onyx.spiritone.com> > I'm not a guru by any stretch of the imagination, but I know that the > RQDX3 controllers wrote a low level format different than RQDX1/2, so > its not unlikely that the PC MFM controllers won't be able to read it. Gack! Good point, you can't move drives between the RQDX1/2 and RQDX3 can you? To toss in another monkeywrench 3rd party controllers are likely to use different format(s) (I'm pretty sure the one I have does). > That said, you might be able to retrieve the data from there by booting > NetBSD on the uVAX and dd'ing out the network (or heavens!) the serial > port. You should be able to boot NetBSD without writing anything to the > drives. If it has a tape, you could spool out to it and then try > reading it on a more PC-happy tape drive. How hard is it to setup things to netboot NetBSD in a diskless configuation? This sounds like the logical solution. > I kinda miss my uVAX II w/RA82 hanging on it :) Not terribly efficient, > but it sounded cool. Now if I could get a reasonable PDP-11 that my > wife wouldn't object to :) My MicroVAX III sits in a 3rd party chassis ~4U in a rack on top of DEC enclosures for RA72 and RA73 drives. It also has RL01 and RL02 drives. I built it specifically for these sorts of tasks. Unfortunatly it's also sitting in storage where I can't use it :^( If I'm ever able to get it out of storage I'll most likely add a SCSI (tape and disk) controller to it. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 29 16:01:04 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:01:04 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F4A7C3.8060808@dakotacom.net> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> <200608290649.CAA09130@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44F45B40.50907@dakotacom.net> <20060829164233.GG129@linus.groomlake.area51> <44F49563.6090009@dakotacom.net> <200608291328070505.149BDDF9@10.0.0.252> <44F4A7C3.8060808@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608291401040137.14BA071D@10.0.0.252> On 8/29/2006 at 1:46 PM Don wrote: >So, the type is merely a convenience for The Desktop. And, >IMO, a poorly designed/implemented mechanism. :-( Not just the Desktop, Don. It also works with command lines; e.g., entering the whole name of a file with a .ZIP extension at a command prompt brings up whatever you've registered as your ZIP handler in Win2K. I don't think this is part of Win9x in any shape. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 29 16:16:52 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:16:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) Message-ID: <200608292116.k7TLGobP046837@keith.ezwind.net> --- "Nathan E. Pralle" wrote: >> snip << > collect a DEC), but I > could easily see a "pre-1984" list and a "post-198 4" > list for those who > would rather glean only that subject matter that > pertains to their > particular hobby interests. > > Nathan > I think that is a good idea, except that my interest lies in the TRS-80 (1980 to 1988ish) and the Amiga (erm.. mid 80's to present) so there would have to be a list that still combined everything as it is now (100 emails a day isn't so bad.... unless you have a family/partner to spend time with). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 29 16:04:30 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:04:30 -0700 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: <200608292047.k7TKlTCG018044@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608292047.k7TKlTCG018044@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200608291404300916.14BD2ED7@10.0.0.252> On 8/29/2006 at 1:47 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: >I suspect, but this is only a guess, that the issue is the way the DEC MFM >drives are formated. There are only two ways that I'm aware of to format >an MFM drive for use on a VAX. One is with a MicroVAX/VAXstation 2000 >(formatter is built into the ROM's), the other is with the Field Service >Diagnostics (customer diagnostics can't format drives). Bingo. Even back in the old PC XT/AT MFM days, you couldn't always take an MFM drive formatted on one manufacturer's controller and use it as-is on another's. Cheers, Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Aug 29 16:06:59 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 22:06:59 +0100 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: <44F49F6D.6020700@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <002201c6cbaf$14805d70$5b01a8c0@uatempname> J Blaser wrote: > After adjusting the Drive Select (set to drive 2, per IBM's twisted > cable 'standard') and Write Fault (if extant) jumpers, *none* of the > DEC-related drives are recognized by my test rig. I always get a "C: > drive error / Press to RESUME" message. The drive's ready light > is on, and all looks and sounds normal. > Is there something I've missed, trying to image these 'DEC' drives? > Did I miss some not-so-obvious jumper somewhere (though I diligently > examined all documentation I could find)? Surely, they're just > good-ol' MFM drives, right? They are, indeed, good old MFM drives but the RQDX3 controller (and also IIRC, the earlier RQDX1/2 controllers) stored drive parameters in a specific place on the drive. I suspect that, without some insanely complex trickery, you will not be able to read those drives easily using your PC setup. If you can find out exactly what drive parameters the RQDX3 (or RQDX1/2) used to use, you might be able to read the data. If you can find a VAX system to plug these drives into, then you could certainly boot into a cluster (which obviously means you need another VAX and a network connection) and then perform an image backup of the RD53/RD54 or whatever. If the disk contains an OS other than VAX/VMS then a physical backup (BACKUP/PHYSICAL) should preserve the contents. Overall, I think it would be far less effort to find a MicroVAX onto which these drives could be attached for imaging (then again, I've not found it hard to locate the smaller VAXes). BTW: The RQDX3 and RQDX1/2 ways of doing things are incompatible. So you need to know which to use (or have both available and try both). The odds are that it will be RQDX3 format, but it's best to be aware of the possibility that it might not. Antonio From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Aug 29 15:06:48 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 21:06:48 +0100 Subject: Comptometer / adding machine oil? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44F49E58.1070206@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> You do need to strip the mechanism and remove the old lubricant - if you >> just wash the mechanism, all you do is drive dirt into the pivots, and > > I am sure I was flamed either here or on a camera repair forum for making > much the same point. I regard fluching a mechanism with solvent as being > a real bodger's trick, likely to do more harm than good. I know it's not quite the same thing but on the small mechanical parts of hydraulic systems I work on, I find that some of them are almost impossible to get sorted out unless you dunk them in a bucket of petrol for a while and flush the worst of the crap out before you even *start* to take them to bits. Of course the key here is that you do still take them to bits and clean everything properly. Gordon. From kth at srv.net Tue Aug 29 10:28:44 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 09:28:44 -0600 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F4AB05.7020207@dakotacom.net> References: <200608292045.k7TKj2af045605@keith.ezwind.net> <44F4AB05.7020207@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44F45D2C.7070908@srv.net> Don wrote: > > E.g., TIFF's can be stored in Moto or Intel byte order > (big/little Endian). Why aren't there .TIFFi and .TIFFm Ans: 3 character limit on extensions. > extensions to differentiate between the two (ans: because > TIFF decoders are smart enough to Do The Right Thing) From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Aug 29 16:13:52 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:13:52 -0700 Subject: New version of GTTY for PDP-8s, etc. Message-ID: <200608291413.52859.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I recently added a RK8E/Rk05 and a RX8E/RK02 to my PDP-8/F and had ample opportunity to use GTTY as my console/paper-tape interface. As a result, I have upgraded GTTY as follows since it's last "official" release: Changes since release 0.92 1) Added ability to output a CR, wait for echo, etc. before uploading PT image files. Aids in handling paper tape uploads to OS/8 programs (such as PIP, BUILD. etc.). 2) Tabbing is now supported. Added option to specify tab size. 3) Proper handling of CR on "Enter" (bug fix). 4) Option to support CF/LF on "Enter" for DOS. 5) Minor bug fixes. 6) Documentation improvements This latest version (0.96) of GTTY can be obtained from: ftp://bickleywest.com/gtty96 or by anonymous FTP: ftp bickleywest.com Name: anonymous Password: [email address] cd /gtty96 Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Aug 29 16:19:33 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:19:33 -0400 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: <200608292100.k7TL0RWq018693@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608292100.k7TL0RWq018693@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200608291719.33710.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 29 August 2006 17:00, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > That said, you might be able to retrieve the data from there by > > booting NetBSD on the uVAX and dd'ing out the network (or heavens!) > > the serial port. You should be able to boot NetBSD without writing > > anything to the drives. If it has a tape, you could spool out to > > it and then try reading it on a more PC-happy tape drive. > > How hard is it to setup things to netboot NetBSD in a diskless > configuation? This sounds like the logical solution. I think that the NetBSD website has instructions on how to set up a machine to netboot a VAX (mopd, tftpd, nfs, etc). FWIW, after NetBSD 1.5, the boot.mop file they distribute got borked, which wasn't fixed until either NetBSD 3.0 or the -current branch. It's probably easiest to just use NetBSD 1.5 to do this. This is what I do to image 6250/1600bpi magtapes... I've got a TU81+ hooked up to a VAX 4000/300 in my basement, which I netboot NetBSD on, and use a program I wrote to make images of tapes (mostly because I was having problems with compiling the other common tape imaging program -- taper? -- on NetBSD). I also tried this method for RL02 disk packs, but ended up finding a bug in NetBSD's RL02 driver (it appears to be a DMA address problem), which I never had time to look at in depth enough to consider fixing. I ended up just booting VMS (probably 5.3 on that machine) to make RL02 images, which worked beautifully. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 29 16:39:57 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:39:57 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) Message-ID: <200608292139.k7TLdvRv047695@keith.ezwind.net> --- der Mouse wrote: > > For the record, I think Jay is doing a GREAT job , > and more people who > > might be intimidated by this thread but who agre e > should speak up and > > say so. > > Well, I don't feel intimidated by the thread. But I > do think Jay is > doing a good job managing the list; I don't agree > with everything he > does/says, but I agree with most of it, and I thin k > he's probably doing > a better job than I would in his place. > > If Jay says the list rules have changed, the list > rules have changed, > and it is not for us to gainsay him. classiccmp i s > a tremendous > resource, and it seems to me more than a trifle > arrogant for us to try > to tell Jay how he has to run something he's > *donating* to us. > > If you don't like it, go start your own list. Mak e > it good, and I > might even subscribe. :-) > Right with you there der Mouse. Jay, as a relatively new member I have found this list useful and interesting, but if you do decide to do a mandatory "time-out" (and I hope you don't) I will understand, as I'm sure will many of us. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Aug 29 16:27:26 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 09:27:26 +1200 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: <44F49F6D.6020700@rogerwilco.org> References: <44F49F6D.6020700@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: On 8/30/06, J Blaser wrote: > For the DEC uVAX gurus out there... > > Being the fortunate recipient of a nice collection of DEC gear, I've now > turned my attention to a handful of uVAXen of various flavors. Given your problems you list further down the message, what models of uVAXen do you have, and most specifically, what disk controllers (uVAX 2000-built-in, RQDX1, RQDX3...)? > As I did with the PDP-11 RL cartridges, I'm first trying to image these > uVAXen disks[1] before I do something stupid. Please be aware that I'm > a complete VAX newbie and I consider this imaging a vital CYA insurance > step to my eventual VAX/VMS/ULTRIX/BSD education. Nothing wrong with being cautious. > Since I don't have (at least to my knowledge, yet) a functional VAX that > might do the trick, I've removed each drive and attached it to a known > working WD1002-WA2 controller [2] running on a 40Mhz 386 box, with > Debian Linux. I'm just using the dd command to image the drive to a > file, which I'll burn off to a CD when I've got everything imaged. Good plan in theory, but there's a problem with it in practice - there is no standard for low-level format on MFM drives. > The reason I'm using such old hardware is a long story [3], but I have > tested and proved this setup's functionality by imaging three MFM drives > from old PC-class system.with no difficulty. You must have happened to have used WD-formatted MFM drives (since the rig has a WD1002 in it). Your setup will work fine for imaging some PC drives, but not others. > Which brings me to the DEC-related drives. > > After adjusting the Drive Select... *none* of the DEC-related drives > are recognized by my test rig... > Strangely, it almost appears that there is no low level format on the > drives, doesn't it? Or that the low-level format isn't recognized by a WD1002. > I'm not smart enough to make that call though, and > it seems strange that *all three* drives show this same result. Is it > possible that the original owner somehow 'bulk erased' the drives? I > did, at least, expect to find formating marks. It's _possible_ that the previous owner erased the drives, but unlikely. The only two (easy) ways I can guess how it might have been done would be to use the internal (ROM-based) format utility on a uVAX2000 or to boot the Field Service diagnostic tape (the customer tape lacks the format utility) and use the tape-based format utility. Unlikely. > Is there something I've missed, trying to image these 'DEC' drives? Did > I miss some not-so-obvious jumper somewhere (though I diligently > examined all documentation I could find)? The only jumper change from VAX to PC use I know of is the one that must be installed into a Micropolis 1355 to turn it into an RD53 (J7?). You have to unscrew the lower board from the drive (2 screws and it hinges up), and there's a marked spot for a wire jumper. Without that jumper, the VAX format utility won't "see" the drive as an RD53, but it would work fine in a PC. I've added this jumper to drives pulled from PCs and reformatted them - no problems. I don't think you have to pull the jumper to go the other way. > Surely, they're just good-ol' MFM drives, right? The rare jumper aside, yes. What you've hit upon was a daily problem in the pre-IDE world - the data interface between the controller and the drive is a raw analog channel. As long as you didn't exceed the bits-per- inch limit of the medium and the MFM clock rate (5MHz?), you were free to invent your own marking scheme on the disk. One non-DEC example is that the Commodore D9060 and D9090 drives wrote 32 sectors of 128 bytes on each track on the same sort of drive that a PC put 17 sectors of 512 bytes on each track. The drive was unchanged from one place to the other - it was all about what the controller scribbled on the surface. In your VAX-to-PC setup, it's all 512-byte sectors, but there's no requirement that the same encoding scheme or header scheme be used. In a PC-only context, think of this real example - the ST-225 was nominally a 21.4MB MFM drive. The ST-238 was nominally a 30MB RLL drive. With the exception of manufacturer surface quality verification (checking for bad spots), the drives are identical. If you stuck an ST-238 on an MFM controller, it formatted to 21.4MB. If you stuck an ST-225 on an RLL controller, if formatted to 30MB (but you might or might not have any luck keeping your data intact, depending on how good the platters were). In other words, it was all about the controller - the drives were, essentially, identical. Even among DEC controllers, there's not one low-level format. If you wanted to migrate an RD51 from an RQDX1 to an RQDX3, you'd have to low-level format it. You can exchange drives between a uVAX-2000 and a uVAX w/RQDX3... that format _is_ identical. Other than that, you pretty much have to look up the controller specs and possibly (probably?) reformat. I have never heard of a single PC controller that "knew" DEC's low-level format. What folks typically have to do is take a working machine and save off the disk from a running OS. There are many ways to do this, either imaging a disk over a serial or network link, backing the drive up to tape or to a SCSI drive (and then dumping the backup from a "modern" machine that can directly read the backup), or even just cloning the MFM drive to a spare MFM drive and sticking the spare on the shelf. It's easier to make a suggestion if it's known exactly what hardware resources you have on hand. All I can say from what you've posted is that you very well might have what you need on hand, but a spare drive or two that you know is safe to reformat might make things easier to juggle - you could practice installing an OS (*BSD, VMS...) and save the forensic recovery of anything interesting on your old drives until you are more familiar with the systems. If you don't have a tape drive or a SCSI controller, consider Kermit... it may take a while to move many MB over Kermit, but you can set it up and go do something else for hours/days. Also, there isn't *one* way to do this, so if you would list for us the resources you have, we might be able to make a suggestion that's more targeted to your situation. -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 29 16:07:52 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:07:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <20060829163614.GF129@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <200608282122.k7SLMCdq025195@onyx.spiritone.com> <44F36482.2000704@dakotacom.net> <20060829163614.GF129@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <200608292127.RAA14247@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > About ten years ago I got into a similar discussion with some friends > about this, and even designed a file system that not only could > support user added metadata, but even the concept of a "name" was > fluid (you could actually use an audio clip as the "name", or a > graphic). It would also allow one to "cd" into a jpeg (for instance) > and see all the segments that make up a JPEG file [...] This reminds me of a project I did for Universitetet i Troms? (a university in Norway). One of the things it did was present a directory view of a file - given a plain file foo/bar, you could access things like foo/bar/id and foo/bar/parent and suchlike. A slightly different slant on that and you've got the sort of thing you're talking about. > But how would I copy a file "named" to some > other system, like Unix? "With difficulty"? :-) Actually, the notion of such an object rapidly leads me into some curious speculation on user interfaces - I'm having trouble coming up with a UI under which it's practical to use such a name. > [A]t the time [Unix started], you really only had three different > types of files (excluding the special device files)---executables, > object code and text files. [Whee, something approaching real classic content!] Actually, executables and object files were really the same type; the only difference was that executables (a) normally had their execute bits set and (b) didn't have any undefined external references left. (I'm not sure, but it's also possible that the entry point in the a.out header was another point of difference. It's been too long since I worked with a.out files.) This changed, eventually; first we got different magic numbers to support demand-paged executables and suchlike, then after a while when everyone was experimenting with different object/executable file formats, ELF seems to have largely won out.... > It's harder if this metainformation is stored as something else (like > the 4 byte type field on the Macintosh---not sure what it's called > exactly). File type and file creator - there are actually two of them. By an interesting coincidence, I was just today talking with a friend of mine who's a serious Machead, and he tells me that, while modern Mac OSes support file type and creator fields, they are for compatability; they are not used for much these days. (The notion of forks is another one that's on its way out; practically nothing needs anything other than the data fork - and, interestingly enough, since (Mac) OS 9, a more or less unlimited set of forks has been supported, not just a data fork and a resource fork.) He tells me that if creator information is present, it is used to find the right app for a file, whereas if not, it defaults based on the extension - and the UI has ways to override this, either one-time ("Open With") or by bashing the creator field on the file to make it sticky. > So, on a Mac you have the file "vacation" but the type is (as an > example) 0x4A504547. It's meaningless on Unix, and it's a value that > won't fit into the MS-DOS extension field. Another important difference here is that on Unix, the file "type" field is part of the name, and thus (eg) vacation.jpg and vacation.txt can exist in the same directory on Unix, whereas it is not possible to have "vacation" of type 0x4a504547 and "vacation" of type 0x54455854 in the same folder on a Mac. I'm not sure whether this is an argument either way, but it *is* a difference. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 29 16:31:49 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <200608292021.k7TKL93n016987@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Aug 29, 6 01:21:09 pm" Message-ID: <200608292131.k7TLVniG014994@floodgap.com> > I think almost everyone here has a favorite platform, and it is almost > always something other than a PC. How many here are objecting to the idea > of a Pentium as a classic because the PC killed their favorite platform. An excellent point. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Wherever I go, there's I AM. ----------------------------------------------- From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 29 16:43:58 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:43:58 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608291401040137.14BA071D@10.0.0.252> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> <200608290649.CAA09130@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44F45B40.50907@dakotacom.net> <20060829164233.GG129@linus.groomlake.area51> <44F49563.6090009@dakotacom.net> <200608291328070505.149BDDF9@10.0.0.252> <44F4A7C3.8060808@dakotacom.net> <200608291401040137.14BA071D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44F4B51E.8050508@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/29/2006 at 1:46 PM Don wrote: > >> So, the type is merely a convenience for The Desktop. And, >> IMO, a poorly designed/implemented mechanism. :-( > > Not just the Desktop, Don. It also works with command lines; e.g., > entering the whole name of a file with a .ZIP extension at a command prompt > brings up whatever you've registered as your ZIP handler in Win2K. I don't Really? I'll have to try that. > think this is part of Win9x in any shape. From evan at snarc.net Tue Aug 29 16:47:14 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:47:14 -0400 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <200608292131.k7TLVniG014994@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <008e01c6cbb4$b0aa7230$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>> How many here are objecting to the idea of a Pentium as a classic because the PC killed their favorite platform. I object to Pentiums (and for that matter, 486s and most 386 stuff too) as classics because there's absolutely nothing classic about them. Yes, some people might collect them, and maybe someday we'll look back on Pentiums with longing. But right now they are just taking up space on our desks and landfills. How about we definie what's classic as "things that have some character" ... so in a few years from now we can accept an iMac because it was something with freaking character to it. I'll admit that ** even ** some otherwise dull WinTel machines had character. But most didn't, don't currently, and never will. From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Tue Aug 29 17:14:52 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:14:52 -0600 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: References: <44F49F6D.6020700@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <44F4BC5C.1050504@rogerwilco.org> First, thanks to all for the rapid responses. This is definitely a forehead slapper, with an appropriate, "Duh!" from me. I'd definitely forgotten that MFM/RLL disks are formated 'in-situ' by the chosen controller. I'm going back to the drawing board on this on. But you guys have definitely given me the confidence now that I can boot a uVAX without disturbing the drives contents. That's my problem. I don't know enough to even help myself on these systems. So, thanks to all. In response to Ethan's questions... Ethan Dicks wrote: > Given your problems you list further down the message, what models > of uVAXen do you have, and most specifically, what disk controllers > (uVAX 2000-built-in, RQDX1, RQDX3...)? > Hmm...let's see. The RD53 is from uVAX II with a RQDX3. The RD54 is from a VAXstation 3200 with a RQDX3. The RD23 is from a uVAX I with a RQDX3. Two more RD54s from a VAXstation II/GPX with RQDX3. The 11MB Rodime RO-202 is from a third-party (AED WINC) with it's own controller. And, to flesh out the list, I also have a VAXstation I with a RQDX1, but no drive. (BTW, it also have a VAXstation 3100-m38 with RZ(something) SCSI drive which I successfully imaged on a PC with SCSI capabilities) > You must have happened to have used WD-formatted MFM drives (since > the rig has a WD1002 in it). Your setup will work fine for imaging some > PC drives, but not others. Yep, spot on. Another "Duh!" from me! >> Surely, they're just good-ol' MFM drives, right? > > {snip} > Even among DEC controllers, there's not one low-level format. If you > wanted to migrate an RD51 from an RQDX1 to an RQDX3, you'd have > to low-level format it. You can exchange drives between a uVAX-2000 > and a uVAX w/RQDX3... that format _is_ identical. Other than that, > you pretty much have to look up the controller specs and possibly > (probably?) reformat. Okay, I'm listening. Thanks to all for 'reminding' me of something I should have already been aware of. :) > > I have never heard of a single PC controller that "knew" DEC's low-level > format. What folks typically have to do is take a working machine and > save off the disk from a running OS. There are many ways to do this, > either imaging a disk over a serial or network link, backing the drive up > to tape or to a SCSI drive (and then dumping the backup from a > "modern" machine that can directly read the backup), or even just cloning > the MFM drive to a spare MFM drive and sticking the spare on the shelf. > It's easier to make a suggestion if it's known exactly what hardware > resources you have on hand. Nice idea. I do have a couple of drives that might work...I'll have to check their capacities. > > All I can say from what you've posted is that you very well might have > what you need on hand, but a spare drive or two that you know is safe > to reformat might make things easier to juggle - you could practice > installing an OS (*BSD, VMS...) and save the forensic recovery of > anything interesting on your old drives until you are more familiar with > the systems. > Yep, I think Pat's idea to do a diskless/network boot of NetBSD and then image off from there is the way to go. > If you don't have a tape drive or a SCSI controller, consider > Kermit... it > may take a while to move many MB over Kermit, but you can set it up > and go do something else for hours/days. Also, there isn't *one* way to > do this, so if you would list for us the resources you have, we might be > able to make a suggestion that's more targeted to your situation. Yes, no problem with time, I have plenty. If all else fails... Thanks to all for very good guidance on this one. Sorry for my stupidity...Duh! I'll let everyone know how things go. Jared From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 29 16:59:42 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "Lost" ideas [was Role of OS in filesystem (was "File types")] In-Reply-To: <44F49F07.2060105@dakotacom.net> References: <000601c6cba1$374aa5d0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <44F49F07.2060105@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608292225.SAA14508@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Some ideas probably *should* have been lost (e.g., Harvard > architecture, non-binary radixes, etc.) Harvard architectures are not dead. If you look at just the CPU core and cache of a modern machine, you have a basically Harvard setup; it doesn't become von Neumann until you lump the CPU and cache together as the processor and go to main memory. Harvard architectures are also used in specialized applications, such as DSPs and microcontrollers. Non-binary radixes...I'm not sure I think those are better lost. Base -2 has some advantages over base 2, for example, and ternary has its uses too. Probably not for general-purpose computing, at least not now, given how far down the binary pathway we've gone - though I note that ternary hardware does sometimes get used when building binary machines (the third state being "undriven", aka "high-Z"). Part of this may be the plethora of gates; there are only 16 different two-input binary gates, and of those, two are constant (and thus not really "gates"), two simply copy one input, two more are inverters (ignoring the other input), and four more are asymmetric (inputs not interchangeable), leaving only six "real" gates, of which five are common (the sixth being NXOR). But in ternary, there are 19683 basic two-input gates (versus 16 for binary), of which there are still 729 after eliminating gates which aren't symmetric in their inputs - too many to do useful design work with; even if 90% of those don't find use (including constants, ignore-one-input, etc) - could you imagine having over seventy varieties of IC just for basic two-input gates, never mind more complicated devices? (It does make an interesting thought experiment to try to design the semantics for devices such as a flip-flap-flop (ternary analog to a flip-flop), but that's not to say such a thing would be useful. I suspect trying to analogize binary devices would be a losing game, versus letting useful devices emerge from experimentation as they did in binary logic.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Aug 29 17:26:06 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 18:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F49C46.9000101@dakotacom.net> References: <200608282122.k7SLMCdq025195@onyx.spiritone.com> <44F36482.2000704@dakotacom.net> <20060829163614.GF129@linus.groomlake.area51> <44F49C46.9000101@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608292227.SAA14538@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > But you're already using 2 - 4 bytes in the inode to track this type! > I.e., '.' followed by 1 - 3 (or more) characters of extension. Nitpick: as far as I know, all fielsystems that use inodes keep names in directory entries, not in the inodes themselves. That is, files don't have names; rather, names have files. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 29 18:40:38 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 23:40:38 +0000 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <008e01c6cbb4$b0aa7230$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <008e01c6cbb4$b0aa7230$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <44F4D076.8090909@yahoo.co.uk> Evan Koblentz wrote: > How about we definie what's classic as "things that have some character" ... "classic" is one of those things that's really hard to define, plus it means different things to different people. Heck, I can't get at all enthusiastic about Apple ][ machines as to me they're not a lot different to the PCs of today. They ticked all the right boxes, had a slightly odd design, sold in huge numbers, but I find them utterly dull - possibly simply *because* they were so popular and "middle of the road". I'm not going to object to anyone else talking about them, though! We get only a handful of "modern IBM PC compatible" type posts a year it would seem, which *when it doesn't descend into an argument* typically attract a few replies. Surely it's only a fraction of total list traffic? To me that would indicate that list members are pretty much self-policing, and any attempt to define rules as to what hardware does or doesn't qualify would eventually rule out discussion of some particular hardware that *was* of interest (I'm particularly thinking things like PC cards/coprocessor boards for old non-PC systems might fall foul of any such rules) But, maybe I'm atypical anyway (aren't we all? ;) When I first joined this list way back when my interest was in a select few 8-bit micros. It seemed back then that 90% of list traffic was concerning the big iron - in other words *to me* it could be considered "off topic" as far as my interest went (these days I've broadened my horizons a heck of a lot!). I used to download list messages via a 2400 baud modem and think nothing of skim-reading posts and deleting nearly all of them as not being interesting. Hence the reason that even if I did object to OT posts (which I don't as I like the social dynamics aspect of a group of like-minded people) I'd still be tolerant of them - it wouldn't pain me to just delete anything I wasn't interested in (and these days the messages are still small but the connection speed's a little better than it used to be ;-) cheers Jules -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 29 17:56:02 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:56:02 -0700 Subject: OT: Re: "Lost" ideas [was Role of OS in filesystem (was "File types")] In-Reply-To: <200608292225.SAA14508@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <000601c6cba1$374aa5d0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <44F49F07.2060105@dakotacom.net> <200608292225.SAA14508@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44F4C602.8080201@dakotacom.net> der Mouse wrote: >> Some ideas probably *should* have been lost (e.g., Harvard >> architecture, non-binary radixes, etc.) > > Harvard architectures are not dead. If you look at just the CPU core > and cache of a modern machine, you have a basically Harvard setup; it > doesn't become von Neumann until you lump the CPU and cache together as Yes, but this is an artificial distinction. Main memory is still homogenous to the CPU/programmer. > the processor and go to main memory. Harvard architectures are also > used in specialized applications, such as DSPs and microcontrollers. > > Non-binary radixes...I'm not sure I think those are better lost. Base [snip] Sorry, I wasn;t clear in my original comment. What I meant was "non binary -- 8421 -- encodings". E.g., gray code (though useful for shaft and other incremental encoders), bi-quinary, 5421, 2-of-5, etc. While some like Chen-Ho and DPD are interesting hacks, I still haven't found them to be particularly *useful* -- from a software standpoint. (though they can have use in specialty applications -- often with specialty hardware and/or protocols). I'll "hold out" on BCD and packed BCD; and will concede that there are times when sign-magnitude can be a win. But, most of the other encodings are just... *icky*! :> From tarsi at binhost.com Tue Aug 29 17:52:30 2006 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Nathan E. Pralle) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:52:30 -0500 Subject: Registry of Collectors Message-ID: <44F4C52E.2060305@binhost.com> Forgive me if this has been done, but has anyone ever attempted to create a registry of collectors on the CComp lists? A sort of virtual directory of people on the list, their particular collection/hobby interests, and perhaps contact information? I'd be interesting to have such a tome for looking up quick access to someone's specific knowledge if need be. Nathan -- -------------------- www.nathanpralle.com -------------------- From jdbryan at acm.org Tue Aug 29 17:56:38 2006 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 18:56:38 -0400 Subject: HP 21xx diagnostics Message-ID: <200608292256.k7TMuePn018955@mail.bcpl.net> I am trying to determine the revision date codes of three HP 2100/21MX diagnostic binary paper tapes in my possession. If anyone has the "Diagnostic Configurator Reference Manual" (HP number 02100-90157) with a print date later than August 1976 and earlier than January 1978, please check Table A-1 in Appendix A for the revision codes for the following diagnostic serial numbers: DSN 111202 -- 7900/01 CARTRIDGE DISC -- 12960-16001 DSN 111303 -- 7905 CARTRIDGE DISC -- 12962-16001 DSN 146100 -- PAPER TAPE READER-PUNCH -- 12597-16001 It's also possible that the revision codes are listed in the corresponding diagnostic operating manuals from that time period; these are the part numbers: 12960-90003 12962-90001 12597-90031 (I have the Configurator manuals before and after the above dates, and the DSNs bracket the ones I'm trying to identify.) -- Dave From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 29 17:57:10 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:57:10 -0500 Subject: Registry of Collectors References: <44F4C52E.2060305@binhost.com> Message-ID: <004f01c6cbbe$7651b990$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Nathan wrote.... > but has anyone ever attempted to create a registry of collectors on the > CComp lists? To my knowledge there are two out there. Bill Yakowenko's Classic Computer Rescue Squad is one. There is another one somewhere, I forget where. The classiccmp.org website that a listmember is working on will also have a spot for this. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 29 18:06:17 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:06:17 -0700 Subject: OT: Re: "Lost" ideas [was Role of OS in filesystem (was "File types")] In-Reply-To: <44F4C602.8080201@dakotacom.net> References: <000601c6cba1$374aa5d0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <44F49F07.2060105@dakotacom.net> <200608292225.SAA14508@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44F4C602.8080201@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608291606170529.152CAB36@10.0.0.252> On 8/29/2006 at 3:56 PM Don wrote: >I'll "hold out" on BCD and packed BCD; and will concede >that there are times when sign-magnitude can be a win. >But, most of the other encodings are just... *icky*! : Don't forget XS3! From reevejd at mchsi.com Tue Aug 29 18:53:37 2006 From: reevejd at mchsi.com (John D. Reeve) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 18:53:37 -0500 Subject: Need microprocessor trainer, oscilloscope advice? Message-ID: <001801c6cbc6$66047890$75f2ce0c@gatewaynotebook> Hello All. I'm new to this list and would like some advice on learning the inner workings of vintage computers. I have some basic experience with electronics and some simple measurement tools (multimeter, logic probe). So far, I've repaired a couple of older machines (Kaypro's, Compaq portables) but this has amounted to swapping dead hard or floppy drives, replacing dead batteries, etc. So here are my questions: (1) Is there a "trainer" system good for learning about microcomputer design and operation, and (2) would an oscilloscope be useful for this purpose, and if so, what Mhz rating is needed to work on older machines? I've noticed the price is directly proportional to this number! Thanks, John R. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 29 18:55:48 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: <44F4BC5C.1050504@rogerwilco.org> from "J Blaser" at Aug 29, 2006 04:14:52 PM Message-ID: <200608292355.k7TNtnSW023256@onyx.spiritone.com> > The RD53 is from uVAX II with a RQDX3. And this makes me think of something I don't think anyone has directly warned you of. Sort out everything with another drive than this. *IF* it will spin up, you want to get the data off of it without powering it back down. RD53's were unreliable 10-20 years ago, they can't have gotten any better :^( > The RD23 is from a uVAX I with a RQDX3. RD23? Assuming this isn't a typo, what on earth is an RD23? > (BTW, it also have a VAXstation 3100-m38 with RZ(something) SCSI drive > which I successfully imaged on a PC with SCSI capabilities) > Yep, I think Pat's idea to do a diskless/network boot of NetBSD and then > image off from there is the way to go. Actually you might have another solution here. Is the VAXstation 3100-m38 running VMS? If it is, has TCP/IP, and the SCSI HD has enough free space, simply net-boot VMS. Though if you're more comfortable with Pat's idea, it's probably the better solution. Zane From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Tue Aug 29 19:31:20 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 18:31:20 -0600 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: <200608292355.k7TNtnSW023256@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608292355.k7TNtnSW023256@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <44F4DC58.7020607@rogerwilco.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> The RD53 is from uVAX II with a RQDX3. >> > > And this makes me think of something I don't think anyone has directly > warned you of. Sort out everything with another drive than this. *IF* it > will spin up, you want to get the data off of it without powering it back > down. RD53's were unreliable 10-20 years ago, they can't have gotten any > better :^( > > Yes, indeed, this drive *does* spin up. Actually, I've cycled the power on it about a half-dozen times by now, messing with this imaging project. I have noted in past threads some consternation with this drive, and it's just what I want to 'manage' with these imaging efforts. When (I guess not if :) this drive goes bad, I'll have the image. >> The RD23 is from a uVAX I with a RQDX3. >> > > RD23? Assuming this isn't a typo, what on earth is an RD23? > Oops, my mistake. I transcribed that from my notes incorrectly. Should read: *RD53* > >> (BTW, it also have a VAXstation 3100-m38 with RZ(something) SCSI drive >> which I successfully imaged on a PC with SCSI capabilities) >> > > > > >> Yep, I think Pat's idea to do a diskless/network boot of NetBSD and then >> image off from there is the way to go. >> > > Actually you might have another solution here. Is the VAXstation 3100-m38 > running VMS? If it is, has TCP/IP, and the SCSI HD has enough free space, > simply net-boot VMS. That's just it, though. I'm so much of a VAX newbie. I have *no* knowledge of what is and isn't on these system, since I've been scared to even power them up until I know more about what I'm doing. Thus the desire to get the drives imaged *before* I do something that I can't recover from. I just don't know what is dangerous or not, yet. Still, we could hide under our beds everyday trying to avoid life's little risks, right? I guess I'm going to have to bite the bullet and just crank one of these systems up and see what I've got. I have successfully imaged the drive on the 3100, so at least I can give that system a try. I'll have to be a quick study with VMS, if that's what's on it. I do have a mostly complete set of VMS v4 (I think) manuals, so I'll just have to dig in, assuming that is indeed what I have on the system. > Though if you're more comfortable with Pat's idea, > it's probably the better solution. > Time will tell. Thanks for the good words. Jared From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 29 18:10:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 00:10:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <0J4Q00FDKGJINFWK@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Aug 28, 6 08:14:56 pm Message-ID: > And even CP/M apps were somewhat sensitized... Ever type A:ASM FOO.ASM and > wonder why you got a disk specification error? Doesn't it try to write the object to S:, and the listing to M: ? Neither of which probably exist. I remember the first time I used ZASM (a CP/M Z80 assembler) on an RML380Z. I typed 'ZASM FOO,ZSM and got a 'BDOS ERROR ON Z: SELECT' for my efforts.... To return to the original question, how far back do you have to go for unix's cc(1) to require .c on C source files, .o on object files (to be linked it), and so on? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 29 18:20:09 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 00:20:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sharp PC-1211 In-Reply-To: <44F3A15A.1090505@dakotacom.net> from "Don" at Aug 28, 6 07:07:22 pm Message-ID: > Obviously, something is "not quite right". I'll pull them > apart and see if there's anything "obvious". (maybe fresh batteries > "just in case"...) There's some problem that the original cells in the computer were 1.35V mercury cells. The replacements (alkaline cells) are closer to 1.5V. I know some (all?) PC1211s do odd things if given 4 alkaline cells. A silicon diode in series with one of the battery conenctions generally fixes that. IIRC, one of th TRS-80 sites (http://www.trs80.org/ ???) has a service manual for the PC1 which is essentially the same machine as the Sharp PC1211. I don't rememebr seeing a service manual for the printer, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 29 18:21:03 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 00:21:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <04b801c6cb10$d02db710$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Aug 28, 6 09:14:08 pm Message-ID: > There *IS* no 10-year rule. I'm really getting tired of saying that. It's This is the first I've heard of that! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 29 19:07:54 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 01:07:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Aug 29, 6 08:57:55 am Message-ID: > >"The definition of On Topic", Jan 2005 > >http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2005-January/057970.html > > This sounds like an attempt to define a totally different list than > this has *EVER* been. If I read this correctly we should avoid I would agree. Sounds like it's time to found another list which goes back to the original 10 year rule. > speaking of Unix, OpenVMS, Mac OS, and even Amiga OS, and maybe even > TOS. That leaves a pretty narrow field. Even I can recognize that Probably CP/M is off-topic too... After all CP/M -> MS-DOS -> Windows. > older > And yes, as you've no doubt figured I feel quite strongly about this > subject as do several other members who have been here a very long > time. Just because something a fair number of us are either > disinterested in, or actively dislike becomes on topic is not a There have been machines that I actively dislike that were on-topic from the day this list was founded. Doesn't bother me, I just ignore messages about them (I learnt that lesson in my first week of membership, OK...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 29 18:45:19 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 00:45:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: 10 Year Rule In-Reply-To: <200608290716.DAA09355@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Aug 29, 6 03:12:29 am Message-ID: > > If you must have an easy-to-state rule, I'd much prefer the form given > upthread that was something like "anything well outside the current > computing mainstream". Even that, though, seems to me to err enough > (in both directions) to be problematic. I think that's completely unworkable. In the next room I have a machine. It has a GUI, a mouse, bitmapped display, networking, and so on. Sounds like something close to the modern mainstram, yes? Well, I think it's a classic computer by any reasonable standard. Or do people object to PERQs now ;-). Most modern computers have winchester hard disks. Does that mean that discussions of the SA4000 series are now off-topic? Most machines discusser here (and most machines that I own [1]) have a von Neuman architecture. So do most modern machines. Does that make almost all of what we talk about off-topic? [1] The main exceptions being calculators like my trusty HP41, which have separate program and data storage spaces, with separate connections back to the CPU. You can argue that's not a computer if you like, but a machine with alphanumeric I/O, a disk drive, RS232 port, HPIB port, that is user-progammable, and which I've been known to program in machine code [2] sure sounds like a computer to me. And yes, it's way over 10 years old. [2] Because of the separate program and data areas (user language programs count as data, to be interpreted by the machine code progam in ROM), doing this is a pain. You need a special RAM box, normally called an MLDL (machine language development lab) which appears as ROM to the HP41's processor, but which can be loaded as data RAM. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 29 19:10:43 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 01:10:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <200608291735.NAA12520@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Aug 29, 6 01:08:12 pm Message-ID: > > If you don't like it, go start your own list. Make it good, and I > might even subscribe. :-) I think, alas, what is much more likely to happen is that people will leave and not re-meet anywhere else :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 29 19:15:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 01:15:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <001e01c6cb97$d6696750$6700a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Aug 29, 6 01:20:32 pm Message-ID: > > reason to change one of the founding principles of this list. > You have to separate the concept of "age" and "classic". No one is changing > anything actually. The intent was to have a place to talk about "classic" > computers, not just 10 year old computers. Win95 I don't believe is > "classic". I suspect it won't be for a long long time, maybe never, I don't I also have a hard time regarding a Pentium-based PC, or Windows 95, as 'clasisc'. BUT I don't actually know what 'classic' means when applied to a computer. I've got plenty of machines that I consider to be classics, other may not. Equally, I've got some old machines that I _don't_ think are particularly classic or interesting (and no, I am not talking about old PC clones only). Can you please, therefore, give an explicit definition of what you mean by a 'classic conputer' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 29 18:49:59 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 00:49:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: 10 Year Rule In-Reply-To: <00a001c6cb65$cf1b0df0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Aug 29, 6 07:19:29 am Message-ID: > Sure there is. "Cool" doesn't necessarily mean on-topic though. There's > probably lists on the internet somewhere that they can be discussed. And there are other fora for some machines that _are_ on-topic. I am quite sure that there are still usenet groups (which are accessible via the wrb, of course, if you don't have a newsfeed) for some older machines and OSes. And there are specific web fora for some machines/classes of machines. To take a concrete example, the HP9830 is on-topic here (I hope). It's also on-topic on the forum on the HP calculator mueseum web site. If you want this list to only be for machines that have nowhere else to talk about them, I suspect the number of on-topic messages will be exactly zero. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 29 19:24:38 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 01:24:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Comptometer / adding machine oil? In-Reply-To: <44F49E58.1070206@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Aug 29, 6 09:06:48 pm Message-ID: > > I know it's not quite the same thing but on the small mechanical parts > of hydraulic systems I work on, I find that some of them are almost > impossible to get sorted out unless you dunk them in a bucket of petrol > for a while and flush the worst of the crap out before you even *start* > to take them to bits. Completely OT, but when you dismantle a Citroen hydraulic system, you do clean round the unions (unleaded petrol is the recomended cleaner in the factory workshop manual..) before undoing things, to prevent said dirt ending up inside the sytem. However, any antique clock repairer will tell you not to clean a clock before dismantling and inspecting it. Often marks in the dirt will give information as to the size of a missing part, of what's been rubbing where it shouldn't and so on. In the case of computers, I think the latter applies. They're unlikely to be as dirty as the underside of a car :-). And as with clocks, a mark in the dirt may show where a linkage has been scraping on the chassis or something. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 29 19:29:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 01:29:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: <44F49F6D.6020700@rogerwilco.org> from "J Blaser" at Aug 29, 6 02:11:25 pm Message-ID: > > For the DEC uVAX gurus out there... Which I am not, but I've worked with ST412-interfaced hard drives at a pretty low level. [...] > Since I don't have (at least to my knowledge, yet) a functional VAX that > might do the trick, I've removed each drive and attached it to a known > working WD1002-WA2 controller [2] running on a 40Mhz 386 box, with The ST412 interface (often incorrectly called the ST506 interface, but anyway) is a 'raw' interface. That is, the data lines are essentally is squared-up version of the signal to/from the read/write head. There are restrictions on the pulse rate, etc, but apart from that it's up to you (the controller) to decide on how you're going to encode the data, how you're going to mark the start of the sector, and so on. Anf there's no reason to assume that 2 different controllers will do it the saem way. In other words, there's no reason to assume a PC-based controller will recognise data written by a DEC controller. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 29 19:42:08 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 01:42:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <200608292021.k7TKL93n016987@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Aug 29, 6 01:21:09 pm Message-ID: > > > I'm trying really hard to reach out and maintain composure.... > > It is appreciated, and I hope you can see the point that myself and several > others are trying to get across. Please bare with my rambling in this > email. I'm trying to illustrate a point :^) > > I would like to emphasis that I am not trying to pick a fight here. If > anyone feels that way, or feels like firing back a flame, please go do Hopefully this is not a flame, I don't intend it to be > something else for an hour or two. If you still feel the need to reply, try > to let logic rather than emotion dictate what you write. > > Let me start by saying that what I right below is based on my perception > that the crux of this issue is that if the "10 year rule" is in effect, then > Pentiums and Windows 95 are on-topic. A serious question : Was the Pentium ever used in a non-PC compatible? I know the 386 was -- there was a least one Sun that used it, and those interesting Sequent multi-processor 386 machines. Anything similar with the Pentium? If so, (and if they're more than 10 years old or whatever), I think I could easily consider those to be classic computers. > > > Zane wrote.... > > > Wrong. The 10 year rule still makes sense. What you are saying is that > > > no > > > new systems will be added, and that this is a dying hobby. > > > Wrong. Just because I said the "10 year rule" is no longer active on the > > list, does NOT mean that in it's place is a firm year cutoff instead. > > NEITHER are acceptable. > > Even in the beginning the "10 year rule" wasn't considered to be perfect, it > was a compromise. It was also recognized that an arbitrary cut-off at 10 > years was bad, as systems newer than 10 years could be considered a classic. One great advantage of the 10 year rule was that it was easy to use. It was pretty easy to dermine if a machine was over 10 years old or not. Other definitions of 'classicness' seem much harder to apply. > I personally don't consider a Sun workstation a classic, I consider it a As a PERQ-fanatic I can't like Suns, right :-). But more seriously, I would certainly consider a Sun 1 or Sun 2 to be a classic. > workhorse. I'm sure there are plenty here that disagree. At the same time > I consider at least all pre-PCI Sun HW to be ontopic for this list. > > Shoot, I don't even consider most (if not all VAXen) to be classics! > They're still widely used in businesses, and after the MicroVAX II, I for > one don't find the hardware that interesting. I do however, think that they > are great for supporting systems I do consider to be classics, namely > PDP-11's. BTW, I run a VAX 24x7. Hmm.. I think the 11/730 _is_ a classic. To fit a complete VAX into 3 hex-height boards using almost all standard chips (there are 2 custom gate arrays for the memory ECC logic, the rest is microcode RAM, 2901s, and a lot of PALs) is a wonderful piece of design. And as a hardware hacker, I really see little difference between an 11/730 or an 11/780 and the older PDP11s that I know and love... I have difficulty thinking of anything made by Sinclair as a classic. But I know others will disagree, and for good reasons (given _their_ interests). -tony From josefcub at gmail.com Tue Aug 29 20:02:13 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:02:13 -0500 Subject: Sharp PC-1211 In-Reply-To: References: <44F3A15A.1090505@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <9e2403920608291802o5a677279r229a311c74ddd0cf@mail.gmail.com> On 8/29/06, Tony Duell wrote: > > There's some problem that the original cells in the computer were 1.35V > mercury cells. The replacements (alkaline cells) are closer to 1.5V. I > know some (all?) PC1211s do odd things if given 4 alkaline cells. A > silicon diode in series with one of the battery conenctions generally > fixes that. There's a solution to the mercury battery issue. My 35 year-old Canon 35mm SLR camera requires PX625 mercury cells. Today, since they're illegal in the US from what I understand, there exists what's called the 'Wein cell'. 1.35V zinc-air battery. Of course I don't know exactly what the PC-1211 requires, but it's a thought. http://www.weincell.com/ Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 29 20:03:55 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 02:03:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need microprocessor trainer, oscilloscope advice? In-Reply-To: <001801c6cbc6$66047890$75f2ce0c@gatewaynotebook> from "John D. Reeve" at Aug 29, 6 06:53:37 pm Message-ID: > > Hello All. I'm new to this list and would like some advice on learning = > the inner workings of vintage computers. I have some basic experience = > with electronics and some simple measurement tools (multimeter, logic = > probe). So far, I've repaired a couple of older machines (Kaypro's, = > Compaq portables) but this has amounted to swapping dead hard or floppy = > drives, replacing dead batteries, etc. So here are my questions: (1) Is = > there a "trainer" system good for learning about microcomputer design = There certainly _were_ Heathkit made at least one, so did (IIRC) HP. They turn up on E-bay from time to time, but tend to go for what I consider to be rather too much money. What I would do in your position is get one of the simpler, but well-known, 8 bit micros with few, if any, gate array chips (an Apple ][, but not a //e, for example). And make sure a schematic is available. Then, armed with test equipment, try to _really_ understand the design. The first machine you do this for will take a long time. Later on you'll be able to understand the schematic of a newly-obtained machine in a couple of days. Of course if you pick a machine that somebody else here knows about, you can ask on the list questions like 'What the heck is NAND gate U24b for'. > and operation, and (2) would an oscilloscope be useful for this purpose, = > and if so, what Mhz rating is needed to work on older machines? I've = This is a personal thing. I don't use a 'scope much, prefering a logic analyser, others prefer a 'scope. But as I've said before, the most important piece of test equipment is a brain. I've sorted out quite nasty logic faults using a multimeter, an LED+resistor, and a lot of thought. But give the best logic analyser in the world to somebody who doesn't know what they are doing, and it won't help them at all. To answer your second question, aim for a bandwidth ('MHz rating') of about 3 times the fastest signal you want to look at (this may be the master clock frequency). For most 8 bit micros, a 50MHz 'scope is fine. And just as 'nobody ever got fired for buying IBM', you rarely go wrong if you huy a Tektronix 'scope (no I don't work for them, I just like their products). -tony From dj.taylor at starpower.net Tue Aug 29 20:11:15 2006 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 21:11:15 -0400 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: <44F49F6D.6020700@rogerwilco.org> References: <44F49F6D.6020700@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20060829210323.01c2fe98@pop.starpower.net> At 04:11 PM 8/29/2006, you wrote: >For the DEC uVAX gurus out there... > >[And, first, let me apologize up front for the length of this post, but as >mostly a list skulker (of about 9 months), and a digest reader, I figured >I'd toss in as many relevent details as I could.] > >Being the fortunate recipient of a nice collection of DEC gear, I've now >turned my attention to a handful of uVAXen of various flavors. > >As I did with the PDP-11 RL cartridges, I'm first trying to image these >uVAXen disks[1] before I do something stupid. Please be aware that I'm a >complete VAX newbie and I consider this imaging a vital CYA insurance step >to my eventual VAX/VMS/ULTRIX/BSD education. Here is what I did in a similar situation. I had a Fujitsu ESDI disk that was connected to an Emulex QD21 controller and had a RSX-11M system on it, I too wanted to save the contents of the drive. The format is such that only the QD21 could read it. The disk was 'imaged' on a Vax 4000 by plugging the QD21 into the Qbus backplane and mounting it as FOREIGN. Under VMS you can copy an image - block for block - of the disk to a file. This I did and actually could boot the 'file' under simh, neat! The only downside is that you get every block, zeros and all. The Fujitsu drive was about 100Mb. My advice is to hook up with someone who has a Vax with a Qbus backplane and plug in the RQDX3 and your disk and make the image copy there. If there is already a DUnn: device on the Vax would have to move your controller to an alternate address. Most modern Vax consoles can tell you what that address should be by performing a configuration. Doug From spc at conman.org Tue Aug 29 17:48:03 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 18:48:03 -0400 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: References: <0J4Q00FDKGJINFWK@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20060829224803.GI129@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > And even CP/M apps were somewhat sensitized... Ever type A:ASM FOO.ASM and > > wonder why you got a disk specification error? > > Doesn't it try to write the object to S:, and the listing to M: ? Neither > of which probably exist. > > I remember the first time I used ZASM (a CP/M Z80 assembler) on an > RML380Z. I typed 'ZASM FOO,ZSM and got a 'BDOS ERROR ON Z: SELECT' for my > efforts.... > > To return to the original question, how far back do you have to go for > unix's cc(1) to require .c on C source files, .o on object files (to be > linked it), and so on? Not very far. [spc]linus:~/source/cgi/src>gcc --version 2.7.2.3 [spc]linus:~/source/cgi/src>cp pair.c pair.blah [spc]linus:~/source/cgi/src>gcc -c pair.blah gcc: pair.blah: linker input file unused since linking not done [spc]linus:~/source/cgi/src>gcc -c pair.c [spc]linus:~/source/cgi/src>ls pair.* pair.blah pair.c pair.h pair.o [spc]linus:~/source/cgi/src> That's late 1997 (still running a RedHat 5.2 system). Checking a newer system (install just two weeks ago): [root at spodie tmp]# gcc -c hello.blah gcc: hello.blah: linker input file unused because linking not done [root at spodie tmp]# gcc -c hello.c [root at spodie tmp]# ls hello.* hello.blah hello.c hello.o So it looks like GCC doesn't like arbitrary extentions. -spc (which actually surprised me ... ) From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Aug 29 20:24:00 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:24:00 -0500 Subject: Role of OS in filesystem (was "File types") In-Reply-To: <44F4A854.2090304@gmail.com> References: <000601c6cba1$374aa5d0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <44F49F07.2060105@dakotacom.net> <44F4A854.2090304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44F4E8B0.7090600@brutman.com> I don't know if anybody pointed it out already but the IBM S/38, AS/400 and derivatives have strongly typed 'objects', not files. It doesn't matter what you name a database table, an Ethernet line description, or a user profile - the OS knows what those things are and will not interpret them differently if you copy or rename them. As a concession to hierarchical filesystems like the ones used by Unix there is a 'file system' where the OS refuses to interpret what the files are and just considers them streams of bytes. From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Aug 29 20:35:57 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:35:57 -0500 Subject: C64 Packet carts In-Reply-To: <64686.68.111.42.215.1156808575.squirrel@webmail4.pair.com> References: <200608282227.k7SMRPLh013431@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200608282227.k7SMRPLh013431@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060829202652.0baafd20@localhost> You need the license, to start with. Then a 2-meter (144-148 MHz) radio. It's much easier if there's a data jack on it, like most mobile radios have now a days. Packet radio only requires a few watts output, so a mobile radio set on low power is more than enough. Then you need a TNC, a terminal node controller, which is a modem for radio. The KPC-3 by Kantronics is by far the most popular, though the KPC-3+ is better. Either should set you back less than $100, maybe much less. The TNC is setup and talked to over a serial link from... anything that speaks serial. The TNC itself runs a BBS for messages, and you use the device connected to the serial port for K-K stuff (keyboard to keyboard). K-K is now known as instant messaging by another crowd. Getting the license is trivial. You can download the current question pool (with answers) from hundreds of places. Search for "technician exam question pool" and find one that has the 2006 question pool. Better yet, run down to Radio Shack and buy a copy of "Now You're Talking" which explains the questions, the answers, and why each one is right (or wrong.) With pictures, yet. No morse code required. 73 de N9QQB At 04:42 PM 8/28/2006 -0700, you wrote: >On Mon, August 28, 2006 3:27 pm, William Donzelli wrote: >... > > As for Ebay - I tried selling some packet stuff over the past few > > months, and buyers were not much around. > > > > -- > > Will > >What a coincidence - this morning I started looking into what I'd need to get >into packet radio. There's a couple of hams here who'll help me out, I have >no license, equipment, or anything (except computers). What packet stuff do >you have available ? (reply via email, as I suspect this is OT) > >On-topic, though, is that I wanted to use some of my vintage computing gear to >do packet radio (too bad I missed those c64 carts - that'd be a hoot!). I was >trying to think of what to do with an old machine that would be productive, >and packet radio popped in my head. I have an old Sun 3/80 or a Sparcstation >10 I could set up. Is there any packet software for old 68k macs (I have a >clean mac II that's begging to be used for something). > >jdavis [Environment] It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it. --Dan Quayle --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From alexeyt at freeshell.org Tue Aug 29 20:45:00 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 01:45:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <20060829224803.GI129@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <0J4Q00FDKGJINFWK@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <20060829224803.GI129@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Aug 2006, Sean Conner wrote: >> To return to the original question, how far back do you have to go for >> unix's cc(1) to require .c on C source files, .o on object files (to be >> linked it), and so on? [snip tests] > So it looks like GCC doesn't like arbitrary extentions. This is because gcc is a compiler and linker _driver_. It needs to know if the input file is source in c, c++, objective-c, assembler, ada, f77, f95, java, treelang, or is an object file in a.out, elf, coff, etc. format so it can invoke the right backend. You can tell gcc what to do explicitly with the -x option: $ ls test.foo $ gcc -x c -c test.foo $ ls test.foo test.o $ rm test.o $ ls test.foo $ gcc -x c test.foo $ ls a.out test.foo Remember, gcc stands for "GNU Compiler Collection", not "GNU C Compiler". Alexey From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 29 20:49:44 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:49:44 -0500 Subject: Recommendations for operating system References: Message-ID: <005301c6cbd6$918f8620$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I had written.... >> There *IS* no 10-year rule. I'm really getting tired of saying that. It's To which Tony replied... > This is the first I've heard of that! That's just silly. Please scan the archives. Look at just how many times I have posted the above. Don't even attempt to tell me most people haven't seen me post it before. J From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 29 20:52:39 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:52:39 -0500 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) References: Message-ID: <005a01c6cbd6$f98fd270$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote.... > I would agree. Sounds like it's time to found another list which goes > back to the original 10 year rule. If you want a list where most of the traffic is clone PC's running 98SE, please do. > Probably CP/M is off-topic too... After all CP/M -> MS-DOS -> Windows. I just don't get it. Apparently people just can't get the idea of what I'm saying. So far people have actually pondered that I was saying the cutoff should be a fixed year. Others have pondered that I was going to say Timex Sinclair's are off-topic. And now someone thinks I was suggesting CPM would be off-topic. I have said absolutely none of the above, and I have actually said the opposite. I honestly don't see where these concepts are coming from. CERTAINLY not from me. J From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 29 20:54:42 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:54:42 -0500 Subject: 10 Year Rule References: Message-ID: <006101c6cbd7$4519e550$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote... > I think that's completely unworkable. > > In the next room I have a machine. It has a GUI, a mouse, bitmapped > display, networking, and so on. Sounds like something close to the modern > mainstram, yes? Well, I think it's a classic computer by any reasonable > standard. Or do people object to PERQs now ;-). > > Most modern computers have winchester hard disks. Does that mean that > discussions of the SA4000 series are now off-topic? This is just... well... nuts. Anyone who would think that I am saying a Perq is objectionable, or that SA400 stuff is off-topic... is either being silly, or just stating something that obviously isn't what I said in order to support objections. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Aug 29 20:55:52 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:55:52 -0500 Subject: 10 Year Rule References: Message-ID: <006801c6cbd7$6ca2bed0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote.... > If you want this list to only be for machines that have nowhere else to > talk about them, I suspect the number of on-topic messages will be > exactly zero. Yes, and the sky is falling too. Where on earth did you pull THIS idea out of? Pure conjecture? From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 29 23:09:57 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 21:09:57 -0700 Subject: Role of OS in filesystem (was "File types") In-Reply-To: <44F4E8B0.7090600@brutman.com> References: <000601c6cba1$374aa5d0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <44F49F07.2060105@dakotacom.net> <44F4A854.2090304@gmail.com> <44F4E8B0.7090600@brutman.com> Message-ID: <44F50F95.8090506@dakotacom.net> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > I don't know if anybody pointed it out already but the IBM S/38, AS/400 > and derivatives have strongly typed 'objects', not files. It doesn't > matter what you name a database table, an Ethernet line description, or > a user profile - the OS knows what those things are and will not > interpret them differently if you copy or rename them. Does the *application* (that created the object) tag the file? Or, must the OS be made aware of the file's type (by inspection, etc.)? If the former, how do competing applications "register" their ability to handle a particular "type"? (e.g., the example from a previous post of wanting to "open" JPG's with different applications -- as a function of the JPG itself) > As a concession to hierarchical filesystems like the ones used by Unix > there is a 'file system' where the OS refuses to interpret what the > files are and just considers them streams of bytes. From bear at typewritten.org Tue Aug 29 23:09:40 2006 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 21:09:40 -0700 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 29, 2006, at 5:42 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > A serious question : Was the Pentium ever used in a non-PC > compatible? I > know the 386 was -- there was a least one Sun that used it, and those > interesting Sequent multi-processor 386 machines. Anything similar > with > the Pentium? If so, (and if they're more than 10 years old or > whatever), > I think I could easily consider those to be classic computers. FWIW Sequent kept their NUMA-Q series up-to-date through at least the 900 MHz Pentium III Xeon. Boeing still runs a few though IBM dropped support for them and Dynix/ptx a couple years ago. They're on their way out the door; having finally gotten rid of the last of their Apollo DOMAIN systems has accelerated the process, as the NUMA-Qs were mostly back-ending databases for applications running on the Apollos. There's a little bug gnawing at the back of my mind that there were at least one or two other non-PC systems to use the Pentium, but I can't think of what they might've been right offhand. I keep wanting to say "Stratus" although the particular series I'm thinking of is more rightly described as a non-PC platform for Windows NT, along the same lines as the SGI Visual Workstation. ok bear From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Tue Aug 29 23:21:40 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 21:21:40 -0700 Subject: Philips PM3214 O-scope manual needed In-Reply-To: <01C6CB8B.1CDA5080@MSE_D03> References: <01C6CB8B.1CDA5080@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <44F51254.6050007@dakotacom.net> M H Stein wrote: > Any chance someone out there has a manual for this 'scope? > (Philips PM3214) > > Any info greatly appreciated. I think I have the 3200 and 3230 manuals. But, I am not sure if either of them is similar to what you are seeking :( (they are each ~30M so not a simple case of "try it, you'll like it..." :> ) From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Aug 29 23:34:56 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 23:34:56 -0500 Subject: Role of OS in filesystem (was "File types") In-Reply-To: <44F50F95.8090506@dakotacom.net> References: <000601c6cba1$374aa5d0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <44F49F07.2060105@dakotacom.net> <44F4A854.2090304@gmail.com> <44F4E8B0.7090600@brutman.com> <44F50F95.8090506@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44F51570.3030502@brutman.com> Don wrote: > Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> >> I don't know if anybody pointed it out already but the IBM S/38, >> AS/400 and derivatives have strongly typed 'objects', not files. It >> doesn't matter what you name a database table, an Ethernet line >> description, or a user profile - the OS knows what those things are >> and will not interpret them differently if you copy or rename them. > > Does the *application* (that created the object) tag the file? > Or, must the OS be made aware of the file's type (by inspection, > etc.)? > > If the former, how do competing applications "register" their > ability to handle a particular "type"? (e.g., the example > from a previous post of wanting to "open" JPG's with different > applications -- as a function of the JPG itself) > >> As a concession to hierarchical filesystems like the ones used by Unix >> there is a 'file system' where the OS refuses to interpret what the >> files are and just considers them streams of bytes. > > The applications use OS services to create the objects. There are APIs for creating all of the different types of objects on the system, and the OS handles the tagging. Keep in mind that OS/400 (or whatever the current name is) has a fairly limited set of objects. The job queues, user profiles, subsystem descriptions, database tables, etc. are all 'objects'. Things like generic files that are not interesting to the machine but might be interesting to client machines that connect to OS/400 get dumped in generic 'stream files' in a hierarchical filesystem. The OS enforces correct usage of these objects. You can read or access a database table as a different type of object. The OS implements this by storing meta data in each object and managing object types in a centralized manner. Mike From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 29 23:44:36 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 00:44:36 -0400 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > There's a little bug gnawing at the back of my mind that there were > at least one or two other non-PC systems to use the Pentium, but I > can't think of what they might've been right offhand. I keep wanting > to say "Stratus" although the particular series I'm thinking of is > more rightly described as a non-PC platform for Windows NT, along the > same lines as the SGI Visual Workstation. I think some Unisys Clearpath systems use Pentiums to emulate the old Burroughs architecture. Ick. -- Will From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Aug 29 23:57:25 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 06:57:25 +0200 Subject: Philips PM3214 O-scope manual needed References: <01C6CB8B.1CDA5080@MSE_D03> <44F51254.6050007@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <000c01c6cbf0$cea8db00$2101a8c0@finans> > M H Stein wrote: > > Any chance someone out there has a manual for this 'scope? > > (Philips PM3214) > > > > Any info greatly appreciated. > I've got a 3212. Would that be useful ? NIco From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 30 00:28:27 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 01:28:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 10 Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608300537.BAA26965@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> If you must have an easy-to-state rule, I'd much prefer the form >> given upthread that was something like "anything well outside the >> current computing mainstream". > I think that's completely unworkable. > In the next room I have a machine. It has a GUI, a mouse, bitmapped > display, networking, and so on. Sounds like something close to the > modern mainstram, yes? Well, I think it's a classic computer by any > reasonable standard. Or do people object to PERQs now ;-). Oh, stop manufacturing bogeymen. I didn't say "outside the mainstream in all respects". Nor do I mean that; I think "outside the mainstream in any substantial regard" or even "outside the mainstream in several minor ways" should suffice. But I'm not going to try to logic-chop a detailed definition. If a detailed definition is needed, we (TINW) have already failed. Besides, it's not *my* definition that matters, but *Jay's*; if he wants to pick up my suggestion in some form, great, but that's his call to make. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 30 00:48:05 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 01:48:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <20060829224803.GI129@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <0J4Q00FDKGJINFWK@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <20060829224803.GI129@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <200608300550.BAA27021@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> To return to the original question, how far back do you have to go >> for unix's cc(1) to require .c on C source files, .o on object files >> (to be linked it), and so on? Well, cc is usually a wrapper; if you break it down and run the stages manually, I don't know of any version which enforces any extensions. > Not very far. [...gcc example...] gcc (a) is a driver wrapper and (b) has options (which you conveniently didn't mention) to explicitly specify what kind of input and output you want it to work with, overriding the defaults (which are based on file names). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spc at conman.org Tue Aug 29 22:29:39 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 23:29:39 -0400 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608300550.BAA27021@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <0J4Q00FDKGJINFWK@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <20060829224803.GI129@linus.groomlake.area51> <200608300550.BAA27021@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20060830032939.GJ129@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great der Mouse once stated: > > > Not very far. [...gcc example...] > > gcc (a) is a driver wrapper and (b) has options (which you conveniently > didn't mention) to explicitly specify what kind of input and output you > want it to work with, overriding the defaults (which are based on file > names). I actually didn't realize that when I did the example. I guess that's what I get for sticking with C for the most part. -spc (Still learning stuff about Unix even after 16 years ... ) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 29 16:40:43 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:40:43 -0400 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives Message-ID: <0J4S004FH427OTL4@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:04:30 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 8/29/2006 at 1:47 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>I suspect, but this is only a guess, that the issue is the way the DEC MFM >>drives are formated. There are only two ways that I'm aware of to format >>an MFM drive for use on a VAX. One is with a MicroVAX/VAXstation 2000 >>(formatter is built into the ROM's), the other is with the Field Service >>Diagnostics (customer diagnostics can't format drives). Many ways to format media on DEC systems. One is a suitable controller and (rqdx2/3)on a PDP-11 qbus machine runnig XXDP diags. The uVAX2000 has formatter in rom (RQDX3 compatable). uVAX-II with diagnostic/formatter disks (Rx50) and the RQDXn of choice. The later uVAX-III I think also had more diagnostic capability. >Bingo. Even back in the old PC XT/AT MFM days, you couldn't always take an >MFM drive formatted on one manufacturer's controller and use it as-is on >another's. Generally you had WDxxxx (compatable), WD RLL mostly compatable, and "other" mostly all over the map but may be compatable with WD1003 style. The S100 market and controllers were a similar problem. Since controllers were TTL/CPU and PALS usually the formats were not alike but formatting was usually not a problem. SCSI is far easier to live with even older near sasi format (Amprolb). Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 29 16:58:01 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:58:01 -0400 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives Message-ID: <0J4S008KR4UYUXTD@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives > From: J Blaser > Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:11:25 -0600 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Since I don't have (at least to my knowledge, yet) a functional VAX that >might do the trick, I've removed each drive and attached it to a known >working WD1002-WA2 controller [2] running on a 40Mhz 386 box, with >Debian Linux. I'm just using the dd command to image the drive to a >file, which I'll burn off to a CD when I've got everything imaged. This will not work with DEC RDxx drives that have been formatted with RQDX1/2 or RQDX3 controllers (Qbus 11 or MicroVAX). >For kicks, if I boot linux and try my dd command, it croaks with this >type of message: > >hda: read_intr: status=0x59 { DriveReady SeekComplete DataRequest Error } >hda: read_intr: error=0x10 { SectorIdNotFound }, CHS=0/0/1, sector 0 > >I get the same type of results when I use dd's seek=n option to other >blocks (sectors). > >Strangely, it almost appears that there is no low level format on the >drives, doesn't it? I'm not smart enough to make that call though, and >it seems strange that *all three* drives show this same result. Is it >possible that the original owner somehow 'bulk erased' the drives? I >did, at least, expect to find formating marks. There may not be a recognizeable format which is the same as saying no format using PC hardware. The drives may be fine and even bootable. >Is there something I've missed, trying to image these 'DEC' drives? Did >I miss some not-so-obvious jumper somewhere (though I diligently >examined all documentation I could find)? Surely, they're just good-ol' >MFM drives, right? I've tried this it never worked using WD1003/WD1006. >[1] I'm imaging three different drive types: RD23-A (71MB Micropolis >1325), RD54 (159MB Maxtor XT-2190), and a Rodime RO-202 11MB drive from >an AED WINC-08/05 RX01/RL02 emulation system. 71MB Micropolis is RD53 (all full height 5.25 are RD5x). All half height are RD3x (st225 and St251) The Rodime is nonDEC, it's likely from a third party. >[2] Yes, I still have every computer I've ever owned, including two >AT-class 286 machines made by Novell in the mid 80's. > >[3] Attempting to use the WD1002-WA2 in two different and more modern PC >motherboards with onboard IDE interfaces proved a no go. Even after >disabling the IDE controller (both primary and secondary) and the floppy >controller in the BIOS there were some general flakiness, and I couldn't >ever get the systems to recognize the MFM controller. The problem is the older controllers will often not work as the newer machines are too fast. You would have to slow down the ISA bus access (older bioses have a tweek for that.). Also the 1002 may require a driver that is incompatable with newer machines (IDE is closest to the wd1003). However, PC hard disk cards in general will be incompatable with DEC controller formatted drives. Third party controllers like the AED you may have a shot but, most of them used proprietory controllers. Your attempt to image the content of the drives will be unsuccessful using PC hardware. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 29 19:29:28 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:29:28 -0400 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives Message-ID: <0J4S00KWQBVDCU3C@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:55:48 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> The RD53 is from uVAX II with a RQDX3. > >And this makes me think of something I don't think anyone has directly >warned you of. Sort out everything with another drive than this. *IF* it >will spin up, you want to get the data off of it without powering it back >down. RD53's were unreliable 10-20 years ago, they can't have gotten any >better :^( > >> The RD23 is from a uVAX I with a RQDX3. If the head stick problem hasn't happend it will be fine. >RD23? Assuming this isn't a typo, what on earth is an RD23? > >> (BTW, it also have a VAXstation 3100-m38 with RZ(something) SCSI drive >> which I successfully imaged on a PC with SCSI capabilities) > SCSI is a whole differnt matter. SCSI has better standardization as the media itself is more isolated. > > >> Yep, I think Pat's idea to do a diskless/network boot of NetBSD and then >> image off from there is the way to go. > >Actually you might have another solution here. Is the VAXstation 3100-m38 >running VMS? If it is, has TCP/IP, and the SCSI HD has enough free space, >simply net-boot VMS. Though if you're more comfortable with Pat's idea, >it's probably the better solution. For certain if it has VMS it has DECnet, however LINUX and even PCs can support DECNET directly. If the 3100 is running VMS it can netboot VMS to a target VAX system so long as there is a network between them. Though Netbsd may be easier for those more familiar with Linux/unix. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 29 21:54:33 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 22:54:33 -0400 Subject: "File types" Message-ID: <0J4S00KZYIL3VE9I@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: "File types" > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 00:10:01 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> And even CP/M apps were somewhat sensitized... Ever type A:ASM FOO.ASM and >> wonder why you got a disk specification error? > >Doesn't it try to write the object to S:, and the listing to M: ? Neither >of which probably exist. CP/M only has 16 disks posible (A..P). >I remember the first time I used ZASM (a CP/M Z80 assembler) on an >RML380Z. I typed 'ZASM FOO,ZSM and got a 'BDOS ERROR ON Z: SELECT' for my >efforts.... Exactly! >>To return to the original question, how far back do you have to go for >unix's cc(1) to require .c on C source files, .o on object files (to be >linked it), and so on? Day two. On day one they wrote the compiler. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Aug 29 21:56:38 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 22:56:38 -0400 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) Message-ID: <0J4S004A1IONOPI6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 01:42:08 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> > I'm trying really hard to reach out and maintain composure.... >> >> It is appreciated, and I hope you can see the point that myself and several >> others are trying to get across. Please bare with my rambling in this >> email. I'm trying to illustrate a point :^) >> >> I would like to emphasis that I am not trying to pick a fight here. If >> anyone feels that way, or feels like firing back a flame, please go do > >Hopefully this is not a flame, I don't intend it to be > >> something else for an hour or two. If you still feel the need to reply, try >> to let logic rather than emotion dictate what you write. >> >> Let me start by saying that what I right below is based on my perception >> that the crux of this issue is that if the "10 year rule" is in effect, then >> Pentiums and Windows 95 are on-topic. > >A serious question : Was the Pentium ever used in a non-PC compatible? I >know the 386 was -- there was a least one Sun that used it, and those >interesting Sequent multi-processor 386 machines. Anything similar with >the Pentium? If so, (and if they're more than 10 years old or whatever), >I think I could easily consider those to be classic computers. No pentium but the 386 did appear on the S100 bus. Allison > >> >> > Zane wrote.... >> > > Wrong. The 10 year rule still makes sense. What you are saying is that >> > > no >> > > new systems will be added, and that this is a dying hobby. >> >> > Wrong. Just because I said the "10 year rule" is no longer active on the >> > list, does NOT mean that in it's place is a firm year cutoff instead. >> > NEITHER are acceptable. >> >> Even in the beginning the "10 year rule" wasn't considered to be perfect, it >> was a compromise. It was also recognized that an arbitrary cut-off at 10 >> years was bad, as systems newer than 10 years could be considered a classic. > >One great advantage of the 10 year rule was that it was easy to use. It >was pretty easy to dermine if a machine was over 10 years old or not. >Other definitions of 'classicness' seem much harder to apply. > >> I personally don't consider a Sun workstation a classic, I consider it a > >As a PERQ-fanatic I can't like Suns, right :-). But more seriously, I >would certainly consider a Sun 1 or Sun 2 to be a classic. > >> workhorse. I'm sure there are plenty here that disagree. At the same time >> I consider at least all pre-PCI Sun HW to be ontopic for this list. >> >> Shoot, I don't even consider most (if not all VAXen) to be classics! >> They're still widely used in businesses, and after the MicroVAX II, I for >> one don't find the hardware that interesting. I do however, think that they >> are great for supporting systems I do consider to be classics, namely >> PDP-11's. BTW, I run a VAX 24x7. > >Hmm.. I think the 11/730 _is_ a classic. To fit a complete VAX into 3 >hex-height boards using almost all standard chips (there are 2 custom >gate arrays for the memory ECC logic, the rest is microcode RAM, 2901s, >and a lot of PALs) is a wonderful piece of design. > >And as a hardware hacker, I really see little difference between an >11/730 or an 11/780 and the older PDP11s that I know and love... > >I have difficulty thinking of anything made by Sinclair as a classic. But >I know others will disagree, and for good reasons (given _their_ >interests). > >-tony From vax at purdue.edu Tue Aug 29 22:53:18 2006 From: vax at purdue.edu (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 23:53:18 -0400 Subject: 10 Year Rule In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608292353.18601.vax@purdue.edu> On Tuesday 29 August 2006 19:45, Tony Duell wrote: > > If you must have an easy-to-state rule, I'd much prefer the form given > > upthread that was something like "anything well outside the current > > computing mainstream". Even that, though, seems to me to err enough > > (in both directions) to be problematic. > > I think that's completely unworkable. > > In the next room I have a machine. It has a GUI, a mouse, bitmapped > display, networking, and so on. Sounds like something close to the modern > mainstram, yes? Well, I think it's a classic computer by any reasonable > standard. Or do people object to PERQs now ;-). Every computer that I own is made out of the same silicon-based semiconductors that common machines are. Does that mean that all computers are thus off-topic? OF COURSE NOT! You do have some common sense I hope? > Most modern computers have winchester hard disks. Does that mean that > discussions of the SA4000 series are now off-topic? You can't be serious. > Most machines discusser here (and most machines that I own [1]) have a > von Neuman architecture. So do most modern machines. Does that make > almost all of what we talk about off-topic? If you think so, then sure. C'MON people, this isn't a HARD concept. Jay is trying to weed out the people who want to post obviously off-topic stuff (like 32/64 bit Windows, modern Linux/BSD/UNIX, and MacOS X) which is handled better other places. I honestly don't see what's so hard about this idea. Jay abolished the strict 10-year rule in favor of people being "smart" and using their own common sense to figure out what's classic. It should be obvious to anyone who's been on this list for more than a month or so that a Dell Optiplex running Windows 95 ISNT a classic machine, but that something like a DEC AlphaStation 500 running VMS and DECwindows IS on topic, despite the fact that the Dell Optiplex may well be older than the Alpha, and that they both have a GUI, and use very much the same peripherals. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 30 02:17:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 00:17:31 -0700 Subject: Help ID-ing DOS backup format References: <200608282023.k7SKNW5f023567@onyx.spiritone.com> <200608281517380612.0FD9C53F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608300017310150.16EE61B2@10.0.0.252> After writing a restore utility and restoring about 200M from QIC, I've identified the backup utility used. It's Anacom Backup Elite, circa 1994. (Yeah, I've never heard of it either). This one was pretty easy--but it does raise the question "What do you do when the only source of the backup software is on the backup tape?" :) Cheers, Chuck --------------------- Original post: I received a couple of DC6250 backup tapes this morning. While writing a program to unravel the backup format looks to be pretty simple, I'd like to know what created these beasts. They're from a Windoze box circa 1995. The "GENERATION" right at the start might be a hint. Here's a dump of the first few bytes of a tape, hex on the left, ASCII on the right: 000000 47 45 4E 45 52 41 54 49-4F 4E 20 EC E9 C6 F3 F4 GENERATION 8T?=( 000010 F4 E5 C2 20 20 70 6F 73-5F 62 61 63 6B 75 70 5F (s- pos_backup_ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Aug 30 03:08:35 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:08:35 +0200 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: <200608291719.33710.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200608292100.k7TL0RWq018693@onyx.spiritone.com> <200608291719.33710.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20060830100835.7760a745@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:19:33 -0400 Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I think that the NetBSD website has instructions on how to set up a > machine to netboot a VAX (mopd, tftpd, nfs, etc). http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/network/netboot/ > FWIW, after NetBSD 1.5, the boot.mop file they distribute got borked, > which wasn't fixed until either NetBSD 3.0 or the -current branch. I had a quick loot at the CVS. The fix is in -current and -4_BETA. I sugest to give -4_BETA a try: ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD-daily/netbsd-4/200608280000Z/vax/ You can also use NetBSD-3 with the netboot from 1.5.1 or 4_BETA. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Aug 30 04:36:48 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:36:48 +0100 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: <0J4S00KWQBVDCU3C@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J4S00KWQBVDCU3C@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <26c11a640608300236s14fadee7pedb61474754580c2@mail.gmail.com> > If the 3100 is running VMS it can netboot VMS to a target VAX system so > long as there is a network between them. Though Netbsd may be easier for > those more familiar with Linux/unix. > > > > Allison > > > I think VMS must be the fastest and easiest setup for netbooting out of any OS I have used. Just one program type in a few details and it works. I have spent far to long trying to figure out what went wrong with netbooting to find I had an extra ";" or similar somewhere it shouldn't be, or didn't have one where it should. Dan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 30 06:01:00 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 07:01:00 -0400 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives Message-ID: <0J4T00BYB53QBQB8@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives > From: J Blaser > Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:14:52 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Hmm...let's see. > >The RD53 is from uVAX II with a RQDX3. >The RD54 is from a VAXstation 3200 with a RQDX3. >The RD23 is from a uVAX I with a RQDX3. No such thing as RD23. Is that a typo? Allison From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 30 09:33:07 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 09:33:07 -0500 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <200608282025.k7SKP427015352@floodgap.com> References: <200608281811.k7SIBkAM019962@onyx.spiritone.com> <200608282025.k7SKP427015352@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060830093100.04c0e298@mail> At 03:25 PM 8/28/2006, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I *only* participate in web forums where a equivalent email list, or USENET >> newsgroup is unavailable. I find them to be far more trouble than they are >> worth otherwise. > >Seconded. I like a medium where the messages come to me, not where I have to >"get" the messages (in often a completely different interface). % elm Certainly there are packages that web-ify mailing lists. You'd think there would be a plain-jane web forum package that let people participate only in the web version if they wanted, and posts would be gateway'd both ways in a transparent fashion. - John From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 30 09:43:13 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 07:43:13 -0700 Subject: Sharp PC-1211 In-Reply-To: <9e2403920608291802o5a677279r229a311c74ddd0cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >From: "Josef Chessor" >On 8/29/06, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>There's some problem that the original cells in the computer were 1.35V >>mercury cells. The replacements (alkaline cells) are closer to 1.5V. I >>know some (all?) PC1211s do odd things if given 4 alkaline cells. A >>silicon diode in series with one of the battery conenctions generally >>fixes that. > >There's a solution to the mercury battery issue. My 35 year-old Canon >35mm SLR camera requires PX625 mercury cells. Today, since they're >illegal in the US from what I understand, there exists what's called >the 'Wein cell'. 1.35V zinc-air battery. > >Of course I don't know exactly what the PC-1211 requires, but it's a >thought. Hi The only problem with these cells is that they have only about a month life once activated. In Canon's one can also add a germanium diode in series with the battery. This does require that there be some load or there isn't enough current to provide the drop. Of course, I'd suspect that any reasonable stack of cells that produces a voltage less than the rail voltage will work. This is mostly for CMOS operation and they have a wide range of operation. Dwight > >http://www.weincell.com/ > >Josef >-- >"I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world >and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." > -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, > "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 30 10:00:25 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 11:00:25 -0400 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060830093100.04c0e298@mail> References: <200608281811.k7SIBkAM019962@onyx.spiritone.com> <200608282025.k7SKP427015352@floodgap.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20060830093100.04c0e298@mail> Message-ID: <200608301100.25674.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 30 August 2006 10:33, John Foust wrote: > At 03:25 PM 8/28/2006, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> I *only* participate in web forums where a equivalent email list, > >> or USENET newsgroup is unavailable. I find them to be far more > >> trouble than they are worth otherwise. > > > >Seconded. I like a medium where the messages come to me, not where I > > have to "get" the messages (in often a completely different > > interface). % elm > > Certainly there are packages that web-ify mailing lists. You'd think > there would be a plain-jane web forum package that let people > participate only in the web version if they wanted, and posts would > be gateway'd both ways in a transparent fashion. This sounds like what Google Groups does... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 30 10:45:07 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 08:45:07 -0700 Subject: Help ID-ing DOS backup format In-Reply-To: <200608300017310150.16EE61B2@10.0.0.252> References: <200608282023.k7SKNW5f023567@onyx.spiritone.com> <200608281517380612.0FD9C53F@10.0.0.252> <200608300017310150.16EE61B2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: At 12:17 AM -0700 8/30/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: >After writing a restore utility and restoring about 200M from QIC, I've >identified the backup utility used. It's Anacom Backup Elite, circa 1994. >(Yeah, I've never heard of it either). > >This one was pretty easy--but it does raise the question "What do you do >when the only source of the backup software is on the backup tape?" :) Congratulations, both on getting it back and figuring out one of the key principles of archives. Always write them in a non-proprietary format, label them correctly, and refresh at the media's half life. While I'm personally against using proprietary formats, I can unfortunately see their need when archiving huge amounts of data. You just have to be sure that you refresh them while you still have the capabilities. Of course this last bit can apply to both hardware and software. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed Aug 30 10:47:36 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 11:47:36 -0400 Subject: NonPC x86s (was: Statement & apology In-Reply-To: <0J4S004A1IONOPI6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060830104206.05c929c8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Allison may have mentioned these words: > > > > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > > > >A serious question : Was the Pentium ever used in a non-PC compatible? >No pentium but the 386 did appear on the S100 bus. Maybe pentium for "non-PC" - I once had a DEC server which had 3 486DX2/66 CPUs and I think it was sufficiently non-compatible enough that it couldn't run Windows (but there might've been a special MSDOS for it, tho, I'm not sure) -- and I *think* they'd made some CPU cards that could take a Pentium, but this might just conjecture & bitrot playing tricks on me... ;-) [[[ Googling ]]] Hrm, not much so far, but I did stumble across a reference to a multiprocessor 486 called a "LSX5030" which ran (ick) SCO... =-=-= AST made an SMP 486/50 box... =-=-= Ah well, I can't seem to find any references to it right now... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 10:59:29 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 11:59:29 -0400 Subject: 5.25" DSDD floppies Message-ID: <200608301159.29789.rtellason@verizon.net> I have just acquired several (8-9?) boxes of the above-mentioned floppies, all except one are shrink-wrapped still, and looking in the one that isn't I find ten in the box, plus labels and WP tabs. There's a barcode and part numbers and whatnot on the box. If anybody can use some of these, feel free to contact me offlist. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 11:02:49 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:02:49 -0400 Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <20060828202619.E96581@shell.lmi.net> References: <3.0.6.16.20060828162500.109f9a2c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20060828202619.E96581@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200608301202.49893.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 28 August 2006 11:30 pm, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 28 Aug 2006, Mike Loewen wrote: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk#Mitsumi.27s_.22Quick_Disk.22_3-i > >nch_floppies > > There are some trivial errors in that article, but MOST of it is correct; > be careful about relying wikipedia for accuracy. > > Does anybody know WHICH bar the bar napkin sized disk is based on? > I want a napkin from that bar! > > From the wikipedia article: > "In 1976 two of Shugart Associates's employees, Jim Adkisson and Don > Massaro, were approached by An Wang of Wang Laboratories, who felt that > the 8-inch format was simply too large for the desktop word processing > machines he was developing at the time. After meeting in a bar in Boston, > Adkisson asked Wang what size he thought the disks should be, and Wang > pointed to a napkin and said "about that size". Adkisson took the napkin > back to California, found it to be 5.25 inches (13 cm) wide, and developed > a new drive of this size storing 98.5 kB later increased to 110 kB by > adding 5 tracks.[2] This is believed to be the first standard computer > media that was not promulgated by IBM." I don't believe this. The earliest, biggest 14" platters were a result of what would fit within the 17" of space in a standard rack cabinet. The 8" drive is (to me) that size because you can put two of them in that space side-by-side. The 5.25" size is because you can put _three_ of them in that space... And the story I've heard about the 3.5" size is that it fits in the pocket of a typical men's shirt. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 30 11:16:09 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 11:16:09 -0500 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F4A97D.5080608@gmail.com> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> <200608290649.CAA09130@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44F45B40.50907@dakotacom.net> <20060829164233.GG129@linus.groomlake.area51> <44F49563.6090009@dakotacom.net> <200608291328070505.149BDDF9@10.0.0.252> <44F4A7C3.8060808@dakotacom.net> <44F4A97D.5080608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060830102021.05a1aea8@mail> Did anyone mention MacBinary, the sanctioned method for wrapping two-fork Mac OS files in a single file for transmission or storage in a single flat file? Or the way some apps were smart enough to create Mac files as MacBinary when the files were being stored on non-Mac (networked) file systems? Or AppleDouble format, the way they preserved the fork on non-Mac floppies (both MS-DOS and ProDOS)? Did anyone mention the early NT Server's optional Mac compatibility mode that allowed Macs to store forked files on NTFS? Did anyone mention the way some old Mac apps used the resource fork (not the data fork) for storing data, because there were convenient API calls that made it slightly database-like? Did anyone mention the way Windows hides the extension from the user by default? Would it be useful to discuss old OS filesystem metadata, such as the 80-char "comment" field in AmigaDOS? No one mentioned the http://www.formatexchange.com/ project from a year ago. Sellam was promoting it. As for file.dmg.hqx and file.tar.gz, did anyone mention the Icelandic naming habit of assigning a child's last name based on the same-gender parent's first name? Annasd?ttir? ?orvaldsd?ttir? Gunnarsson? At 06:10 PM 8/29/2006, Tony Duell wrote: >To return to the original question, how far back do you have to go for >unix's cc(1) to require .c on C source files, .o on object files (to be >linked it), and so on? I wonder if there exists a timeline of when certain Unix concepts came into being. 'file' and magic, for example. To me, it shows that it can be valuable to have an automated method of knowing what's in a file, even for believers in streams of bytes. Tomorrow's OSes will be far more like databases of metadata, I think, than inodes for streams of bytes. Easily recognized, preserved and parsed metadata makes all sorts of interesting applications possible. Geotagging. RFID. GUIDs for everything. EXIF in images can be very handy. Yes, it's easy to think of twists and permutations that will make it complex or problematic to preserve metadata as files change and mutate, but I'm sure people will continue to invent new apps to justify it. I've always thought that even having just "genus" and "species" within the metadata for files would go a long way. Three-char file extensions don't tell much. Apple's old notions of type and creator were handy, too. - John From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 30 11:35:05 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 09:35:05 -0700 Subject: Help ID-ing DOS backup format In-Reply-To: References: <200608282023.k7SKNW5f023567@onyx.spiritone.com> <200608281517380612.0FD9C53F@10.0.0.252> <200608300017310150.16EE61B2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608300935050777.0024B31C@10.0.0.252> On 8/30/2006 at 8:45 AM Zane H. Healy wrote: >Congratulations, both on getting it back and figuring out one of the >key principles of archives. Always write them in a non-proprietary >format, label them correctly, and refresh at the media's half life. Those are good guidelines, but the pattern for us is that we get something that was stashed in storage and only turned up after a search through dusty boxes. Most often, these things don't even have meaningful labels, so the owner is just guessing that s/he has what's needed on them. It's not unusual for us to get a bunch of 5.25" floppies that the owner swears was created on his PC and find a few Apple diskettes in the lot. Most often, the owner has no idea of what software was run that far back. I wonder how well the results of this particular job are going to sit with the owner, though--most of the stuff on the tape deals with communicating with a VAX while running WFWG 3.11--i.e., there's no source code, correspondence, spreadsheets, etc. that would seem to make this worthwhile. Just commodity software. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 11:44:41 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:44:41 -0400 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608291001040858.13DE507E@10.0.0.252> References: <003d01c6cb2c$bdc37260$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <44F45858.7010304@dakotacom.net> <200608291001040858.13DE507E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608301244.41648.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 29 August 2006 01:01 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > How many ways are there of representing variable length character strings? > And how many have you run into? Off the top of my head, I've seen--on the > MS-DOS/Windows platform the following: byte count+data, word count+data, > data terminated by 00, data terminated by 0a, data terminated by 0d, data > terminated by 1F, and probably a few others that don't occur to me right > off. Some of the CP/M tools used $ as a string terminator, if I'm remembering right... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 12:02:55 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:02:55 -0400 Subject: new list Message-ID: <200608301302.55725.rtellason@verizon.net> I've never seen this list like this, with SO BLOODY MUCH discussion about the list itself, far in excess of the stuff that (I thought) this list was supposed to be about. I've seen a number of folks saying "If you don't like the way this list is run, start your own", so I did -- but not for that reason. I started a yahoo group for folks to discuss the 10-year-rule and the similar stuff that's been bogging things down in here lately. You can join it at: 10-year-rule-subscribe at yahoogroups.com Feel free, and have fun. Now, can we get back to talking about classic computers (by whatever definition)? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 12:03:31 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:03:31 -0400 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <44F48835.F663261B@rain.org> References: <44F48835.F663261B@rain.org> Message-ID: <200608301303.31222.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 29 August 2006 02:32 pm, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I usually am pretty quiet preferring not to add to the "noise" level. BUT, > Jay has been doing a fabulous job maintaining the list and providing some > order. While some may or may not like it, there HAS to be someone in charge > ... and that is Jay. He has always been open to suggestions and mildly > tolerant of a *bit* of list "noise", and I see nothing that indicates a > change. Personally, I think this list is very lucky to have someone with > his knowledge, resources, and dedication running this list ... it appears > to be a mostly thankless job. > > Jay, thanks MUCH for all the work you put into this list! Seconded. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 30 12:10:45 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AIX guru consult In-Reply-To: <44F3EB92.1090100@mdrconsult.com> from Doc Shipley at "Aug 29, 6 02:24:02 am" Message-ID: <200608301710.k7UHAj0S007354@floodgap.com> > > Request for AIX consult. Is this a parity memory error? > > Possibly, but it looks to me more like that set of addresses failed > to respond at all. Bad chip or bad socket. How do I determine which socket from the errpt output? Is there an easy way to tell from the address(es) given? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It is a tremendous Mitzvah to be happy always! -- Reb. Nachman ------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 30 12:11:15 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608301244.41648.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at "Aug 30, 6 12:44:41 pm" Message-ID: <200608301711.k7UHBFYA014538@floodgap.com> > > How many ways are there of representing variable length character strings? > > And how many have you run into? Off the top of my head, I've seen--on the > > MS-DOS/Windows platform the following: byte count+data, word count+data, > > data terminated by 00, data terminated by 0a, data terminated by 0d, data > > terminated by 1F, and probably a few others that don't occur to me right > > off. > > Some of the CP/M tools used $ as a string terminator, if I'm remembering > right... Oop$ -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The moon may be smaller than the Earth, but it's farther away. ------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 30 12:15:37 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <200608301202.49893.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <3.0.6.16.20060828162500.109f9a2c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20060828202619.E96581@shell.lmi.net> <200608301202.49893.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20060830100754.Y2832@shell.lmi.net> > > Does anybody know WHICH bar the bar napkin sized disk is based on? > > I want a napkin from that bar! > > > > From the wikipedia article: > > "In 1976 two of Shugart Associates's employees, Jim Adkisson and Don > > Massaro, were approached by An Wang of Wang Laboratories, who felt that > > the 8-inch format was simply too large for the desktop word processing > > machines he was developing at the time. After meeting in a bar in Boston, > > Adkisson asked Wang what size he thought the disks should be, and Wang > > pointed to a napkin and said "about that size". Adkisson took the napkin > > back to California, found it to be 5.25 inches (13 cm) wide, and developed > > a new drive of this size storing 98.5 kB later increased to 110 kB by > > adding 5 tracks.[2] This is believed to be the first standard computer > > media that was not promulgated by IBM." On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I don't believe this. It's been repeated a lot over the years. The people have been identified, but so far, I haven't been able to find out which bar. > The earliest, biggest 14" platters were a result of what would fit within the > 17" of space in a standard rack cabinet. The 8" drive is (to me) that size > because you can put two of them in that space side-by-side. The 5.25" size > is because you can put _three_ of them in that space... That is not incompatible with the bar napkin story. The question becomes whether the MOTIVATION was to try to fit three in, or whether that was just a serendipitous(sp?) consequence of having a smaller one. > And the story I've heard about the 3.5" size is that it fits in the pocket of > a typical men's shirt. . . . and for a while, there was a substantial battle between 3", 3.25", and 3.5" over which one would become the "shirt pocket" disk. Dysan bet the company and lost in their 3.25". George Morrow suggested that we just cut a deal with the clothing industry to increase the size of shirt poskets to 5.25 or 8 inches. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 30 12:16:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:16:40 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608301244.41648.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <003d01c6cb2c$bdc37260$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <44F45858.7010304@dakotacom.net> <200608291001040858.13DE507E@10.0.0.252> <200608301244.41648.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608301016400063.004AC26B@10.0.0.252> On 8/30/2006 at 12:44 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Some of the CP/M tools used $ as a string terminator, if I'm remembering >right... Actually, it's BDOS call 9--preserved to this day in MS-DOS/Windoze. I've no idea why a printable character was selected as a terminator. Anyone have any idea of its origin? Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 12:21:59 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:21:59 -0400 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: <200608291404300916.14BD2ED7@10.0.0.252> References: <200608292047.k7TKlTCG018044@onyx.spiritone.com> <200608291404300916.14BD2ED7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608301321.59183.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 29 August 2006 05:04 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/29/2006 at 1:47 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: > >I suspect, but this is only a guess, that the issue is the way the DEC MFM > >drives are formated. There are only two ways that I'm aware of to format > >an MFM drive for use on a VAX. One is with a MicroVAX/VAXstation 2000 > >(formatter is built into the ROM's), the other is with the Field Service > >Diagnostics (customer diagnostics can't format drives). > > Bingo. Even back in the old PC XT/AT MFM days, you couldn't always take an > MFM drive formatted on one manufacturer's controller and use it as-is on > another's. I also remember some instances where you couldn't replace a failed controller with another one of the same brand, but of a different model. And sometimes even if they were the same model, but different "BIOS" (?) or other software revisions would screw things up. Why was that? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 30 12:24:44 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:24:44 -0700 Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <200608301202.49893.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <3.0.6.16.20060828162500.109f9a2c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20060828202619.E96581@shell.lmi.net> <200608301202.49893.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608301024440400.0052265B@10.0.0.252> On 8/30/2006 at 12:02 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >And the story I've heard about the 3.5" size is that it fits in the pocket >of a typical men's shirt. That's certainly the talk I heard back then. One innovation that's often overlooked is the automatic shutter so that a paper "envelope" isn't needed to protect the cookie. Certainly, the envelope on the 3.25" Dysan floppy would be easily lost--and the floppies would get contaminated with lint if you tried to keep them in a shirt or coat pocket. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 12:29:29 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:29:29 -0400 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: References: <44F49F6D.6020700@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <200608301329.29328.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 29 August 2006 05:27 pm, Ethan Dicks wrote: > In a PC-only context, think of this real example - the ST-225 was nominally > a 21.4MB MFM drive. The ST-238 was nominally a 30MB RLL drive. With > the exception of manufacturer surface quality verification (checking for > bad spots), the drives are identical. If you stuck an ST-238 on an MFM > controller, it formatted to 21.4MB. If you stuck an ST-225 on an RLL > controller, if formatted to 30MB (but you might or might not have any luck > keeping your data intact, depending on how good the platters were). In > other words, it was all about the controller - the drives were, > essentially, identical. I don't recall it being a difference in the platters, but rather one in terms of the bandwidth of one of the read amplifier chips. My recollection is that the MFM drives used a 5 MHz data rate while the RLL stuff used a 7.5 MHz rate. This may have been the case only after a certain point in time, though, I'm not sure. I know of people who took "MFM" drives and used them as "RLL" and had no apparent problems, while others who tried this were either unable to get it to work or else got it working and then all of a sudden had *no* access to their data. There were enough scary stories going around back then that I wasn't personally inclined to try it. I did, however, manage quite nicely with a pair of ST251s that I used with a PerStor card, giving me roughly 156MB. Those drives worked well, and I still have them, only stopped using them because the bearing noise got pretty bad after running them 24/7 for a while. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From kth at srv.net Wed Aug 30 06:50:45 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 05:50:45 -0600 Subject: Help ID-ing DOS backup format In-Reply-To: <200608300935050777.0024B31C@10.0.0.252> References: <200608282023.k7SKNW5f023567@onyx.spiritone.com> <200608281517380612.0FD9C53F@10.0.0.252> <200608300017310150.16EE61B2@10.0.0.252> <200608300935050777.0024B31C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44F57B95.5030106@srv.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: >I wonder how well the results of this particular job are going to sit with >the owner, though--most of the stuff on the tape deals with communicating >with a VAX while running WFWG 3.11--i.e., there's no source code, >correspondence, spreadsheets, etc. that would seem to make this worthwhile. > Just commodity software. > > It could be that they backed up a PC being used as a terminal for a VAX, and assumed that they backed up the data stored on the VAX. Many users get confused between "terminal" and "server", and if they design their own backup, it often suffers from this kind of problem. I have several customers using Windows to talk to VMS, and they always claim that the operating system is "kermit". From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Wed Aug 30 12:34:34 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 11:34:34 -0600 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: <0J4T00BYB53QBQB8@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J4T00BYB53QBQB8@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <44F5CC2A.5090700@rogerwilco.org> Allison wrote: > No such thing as RD23. Is that a typo? (Yup, a typo...really it's a RD53.) So, with all of the good advice from so many that are much smarter than me (thanks to all!), I'm off to see if the VAXstation 3100 has VMS installed. Now that it's disk (SCSI) is imaged, I'm not worried about doing something non-recoverable to the software setup. If it does have VMS, I'll try to remote boot the other uVAXen and then image their drives to the Vs3100, and then take them from there to long-term media. If the 3100 doesn't have VMS but Ultrix, I'll have to think about what's next. I don't know if Ultrix can support netboot capabilities ala BOOTP or RARP. If that's a no go, then I'll take Pat's suggestion and try the NetBSD remote boot option. I'm familiar with Linux (just enough to shoot a toe or two), but I'll have to figure out the NetBSD device nomenclature. Shouldn't be too hard. Overnight I downloaded NetBSD version 1.5.0, 1.5.3, and 3.0.1 for i386 and vax architectures, hoping that at least one of those versions has the mopd stuff that works. Still, I've never used mopd, and that'll be an education in it's own right. More to come, but first I've got to figure out how to reach that little DIP switch on the 3100 so that I can use a character terminal. :) My back panel bezel doesn't have the cutout for accessing the switch. I guess I have an early model. Here goes....! Jared From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Aug 30 12:35:57 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:35:57 -0400 Subject: DATIP from clr always? (obscure unibus & pdp-11 question) Message-ID: <200608301735.k7UHZvT5013786@mwave.heeltoe.com> An obscure unibus & pdp-11 question: Does "clr" always do a DATIP (i.e. read-modify-write) on all 11's? It does on my 11/44. Something tells me I've seen threads (long ago) on this and the perils of using clr as opposed to "mov #0," when talking to hardware. The rl01 bootstrap does it talking to rl11 registers, which tripped me up for a bit. -brad From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 12:41:53 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:41:53 -0400 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608301341.53175.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 29 August 2006 08:42 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > A serious question : Was the Pentium ever used in a non-PC compatible? I > know the 386 was -- there was a least one Sun that used it, and those > interesting Sequent multi-processor 386 machines. Anything similar with > the Pentium? If so, (and if they're more than 10 years old or whatever), > I think I could easily consider those to be classic computers. Interesting question. I know that the last time I was paying attention to that area, embedded systems were starting to use 386 chips. And my Tek scope has an 8088 in it... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 30 12:42:40 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608301244.41648.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <003d01c6cb2c$bdc37260$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <44F45858.7010304@dakotacom.net> <200608291001040858.13DE507E@10.0.0.252> <200608301244.41648.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20060830103859.W2832@shell.lmi.net> > > How many ways are there of representing variable length character strings? > > And how many have you run into? Off the top of my head, I've seen--on the > > MS-DOS/Windows platform the following: byte count+data, word count+data, > > data terminated by 00, data terminated by 0a, data terminated by 0d, data > > terminated by 1F, and probably a few others that don't occur to me right > > off. On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Some of the CP/M tools used $ as a string terminator, if I'm remembering > right... Still there in Int 21h function 9! also, fixed length with padding character (FCBs), also, keeping start and end pointers From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 12:43:34 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:43:34 -0400 Subject: Sharp PC-1211 In-Reply-To: <9e2403920608291802o5a677279r229a311c74ddd0cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <44F3A15A.1090505@dakotacom.net> <9e2403920608291802o5a677279r229a311c74ddd0cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608301343.34557.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 29 August 2006 09:02 pm, Josef Chessor wrote: > mercury cells. Today, since they're illegal in the US from what I > understand, Are they? Anybody know for sure? I know they were hard to find last time I looked (over a decade ago) but there were some out there... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 30 13:01:45 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 11:01:45 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060830102021.05a1aea8@mail> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> <200608290649.CAA09130@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44F45B40.50907@dakotacom.net> <20060829164233.GG129@linus.groomlake.area51> <44F49563.6090009@dakotacom.net> <200608291328070505.149BDDF9@10.0.0.252> <44F4A7C3.8060808@dakotacom.net> <44F4A97D.5080608@gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20060830102021.05a1aea8@mail> Message-ID: <44F5D289.7010005@dakotacom.net> John Foust wrote: > Did anyone mention MacBinary, the sanctioned method for wrapping > two-fork Mac OS files in a single file for transmission or > storage in a single flat file? Or the way some apps were > smart enough to create Mac files as MacBinary when the files > were being stored on non-Mac (networked) file systems? > > Or AppleDouble format, the way they preserved the fork on > non-Mac floppies (both MS-DOS and ProDOS)? > > Did anyone mention the early NT Server's optional Mac compatibility > mode that allowed Macs to store forked files on NTFS? Yes, but all of the above just help you move the files between Macs (i.e. the NT mechanisms just allows the actual move-to-target to be delayed, indefinitely). The "problem" is that file "types" aren't (weren't before MIME; and, arguably, *still* aren't even despite MIME!) standardized. And, even now, file types seem to be named after-the-fact. I.e. if something becomes commonplace, enough, then a MIME type is created for it. Not "planned" (perhaps it shouldn't be) > Did anyone mention the way some old Mac apps used the resource fork > (not the data fork) for storing data, because there were > convenient API calls that made it slightly database-like? > > Did anyone mention the way Windows hides the extension from the > user by default? There are switches to turn it on "for registered types" (the extension is present for unregistered types!). And, even with the extension hidden, the same information accompanies the file in listings -- just in a more verbose form. > Would it be useful to discuss old OS filesystem metadata, such > as the 80-char "comment" field in AmigaDOS? > > No one mentioned the http://www.formatexchange.com/ project > from a year ago. Sellam was promoting it. > > As for file.dmg.hqx and file.tar.gz, did anyone mention the Icelandic > naming habit of assigning a child's last name based on the same-gender > parent's first name? Annasd?ttir? ?orvaldsd?ttir? Gunnarsson? Yes, and a Macedonian (?) married female's last name is a diminutive form of her husband's last name. And married females in western societies *tend* to use "Mrs". [the whole "person name" issue was an illustration that we don't REGULARLY tag people with names that identify their characteristics/"types"; do red-haired people get named differently than black-haired? do tall people get different names than short people?] From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Aug 30 13:06:26 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 11:06:26 -0700 Subject: Role of OS in filesystem (was "File types") In-Reply-To: <44F51570.3030502@brutman.com> References: <000601c6cba1$374aa5d0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <44F49F07.2060105@dakotacom.net> <44F4A854.2090304@gmail.com> <44F4E8B0.7090600@brutman.com> <44F50F95.8090506@dakotacom.net> <44F51570.3030502@brutman.com> Message-ID: <44F5D3A2.1010909@dakotacom.net> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Don wrote: >> Michael B. Brutman wrote: >>> >>> I don't know if anybody pointed it out already but the IBM S/38, >>> AS/400 and derivatives have strongly typed 'objects', not files. It >>> doesn't matter what you name a database table, an Ethernet line >>> description, or a user profile - the OS knows what those things are >>> and will not interpret them differently if you copy or rename them. >> >> Does the *application* (that created the object) tag the file? >> Or, must the OS be made aware of the file's type (by inspection, >> etc.)? >> >> If the former, how do competing applications "register" their >> ability to handle a particular "type"? (e.g., the example >> from a previous post of wanting to "open" JPG's with different >> applications -- as a function of the JPG itself) >> >>> As a concession to hierarchical filesystems like the ones used by >>> Unix there is a 'file system' where the OS refuses to interpret what >>> the files are and just considers them streams of bytes. > > The applications use OS services to create the objects. There are APIs > for creating all of the different types of objects on the system, and > the OS handles the tagging. OK, but it does so at the behest of the application. I.e. it is an inherent consequence of the way the file is created (and not some "afterthought" like "Oh, by the way, let's call this a database file...") > Keep in mind that OS/400 (or whatever the current name is) has a fairly > limited set of objects. The job queues, user profiles, subsystem > descriptions, database tables, etc. are all 'objects'. Things like > generic files that are not interesting to the machine but might be > interesting to client machines that connect to OS/400 get dumped in > generic 'stream files' in a hierarchical filesystem. So, the OS's involvement is only to the extent that those objects affect the OS itself. E.g., it wouldn't think JPEGs were "anything special". So, it doesn't extend the concept of file types outside it's own domain. > The OS enforces correct usage of these objects. You can read or access > a database table as a different type of object. The OS implements this > by storing meta data in each object and managing object types in a > centralized manner. The meta data is stored *in* the object? So, it can't tell what type of object it has without *open()*-ing it? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 30 13:04:03 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 11:04:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608301016400063.004AC26B@10.0.0.252> References: <003d01c6cb2c$bdc37260$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <44F45858.7010304@dakotacom.net> <200608291001040858.13DE507E@10.0.0.252> <200608301244.41648.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608301016400063.004AC26B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060830105543.U2832@shell.lmi.net> > >Some of the CP/M tools used $ as a string terminator, if I'm remembering > >right... On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Actually, it's BDOS call 9--preserved to this day in MS-DOS/Windoze. I've > no idea why a printable character was selected as a terminator. Anyone > have any idea of its origin? IIRC, I saw an interview long ago, (maybe when Gary Kildall was the co-host with Jim Warren of Computer Chronicles?), in which Gary APOLOGIZED for that, and said that it had been a temporary kludge, and hadn't originally been meant to be permanent. For their first assignment, I have my assembly language students write a program to display their name AND the price that they paid for the textbook (to force use of function 2, instead of 9). We then use creating their own puts() function to get into jumps, conditional jumps, and loops. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Aug 30 03:13:37 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 09:13:37 +0100 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:45:02 CDT." <200608292045.k7TKj2af045605@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200608300813.JAA13463@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Andrew B said: > > Why not use a combination of an extension > name and internal references within the files > data, like the IFF format on the Amiga. > > eg. Filename: mypic.IFF > > and then within the first 16 bytes are > contained the ASCII "ILBM" and something else > (I forget... that's what not having a properly > working Amiga does to me!). Not sure whyr > they are spread apart and not the first few > bytes. > That's how the xfm file manager does it. There's a (user maintainable) file of magic data, for example xfm knows gifs start "GIF87a" or "GIF89a" TIFFS start 0x4d4d or 0x4949. So it can ignore extensions if it needs to. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Aug 30 03:30:48 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 09:30:48 +0100 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 30 Aug 2006 00:10:01 BST." Message-ID: <200608300830.JAA13496@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tony Duell said: > > And even CP/M apps were somewhat sensitized... Ever type A:ASM FOO.ASM and > > wonder why you got a disk specification error? > > Doesn't it try to write the object to S:, and the listing to M: ? Neither > of which probably exist. > > I remember the first time I used ZASM (a CP/M Z80 assembler) on an > RML380Z. I typed 'ZASM FOO,ZSM and got a 'BDOS ERROR ON Z: SELECT' for my > efforts.... > > To return to the original question, how far back do you have to go for > unix's cc(1) to require .c on C source files, .o on object files (to be > linked it), and so on? They're present in 5th Edition (June 1974) but whether they're _required_ or not I can't say, I don't have the machine switched on atm. .. .. OK I booted v5 up and trying to "cc hello" after renaming hello.c to hello results in "Format error: hello". Just a quick test... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Aug 30 03:18:33 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 09:18:33 +0100 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:46:59 PDT." <44F4A7C3.8060808@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608300818.JAA13476@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Don said: > > (I *really* need to play with MacOS more and see what the > "shortcomings" of their scheme is/was -- aside from file > portability) I've not found any serious shortcomings and when using other systems I really miss MacOSs file comments field which allows you to attach a short (1k?) comment to a file - it appears in directory list views and is searchable. Very useful. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Aug 30 13:18:39 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:18:39 -0600 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: <44F4BC5C.1050504@rogerwilco.org> References: <44F49F6D.6020700@rogerwilco.org> <44F4BC5C.1050504@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <44F5D67F.6050807@e-bbes.com> J Blaser wrote: > The RD53 is from uVAX II with a RQDX3. > The RD54 is from a VAXstation 3200 with a RQDX3. > The RD23 is from a uVAX I with a RQDX3. > Two more RD54s from a VAXstation II/GPX with RQDX3. Just for the heck, the Professional series (325/350/280) used also MFM drives. Is there a chance to red the on it ? Or on a rainbow ? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 30 13:19:56 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 11:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <200608301024440400.0052265B@10.0.0.252> References: <3.0.6.16.20060828162500.109f9a2c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20060828202619.E96581@shell.lmi.net> <200608301202.49893.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608301024440400.0052265B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060830111301.A2832@shell.lmi.net> > >And the story I've heard about the 3.5" size is that it fits in the pocket > >of a typical men's shirt. On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > That's certainly the talk I heard back then. One innovation that's often > overlooked is the automatic shutter so that a paper "envelope" isn't needed > to protect the cookie. Certainly, the envelope on the 3.25" Dysan floppy > would be easily lost--and the floppies would get contaminated with lint if > you tried to keep them in a shirt or coat pocket. . . . and bent, mangled, etc. But Dysan did not want to go to the extreme of switching to a hardshell. and,... the "wisdom" of the time was that the accepted format would be the one with software availability, so they bet it all with a giant publishing venture. My early Shugart 3.5" diskettes had no shutter. Then came the manually slide open, and pinch the corner to close. Many fairly modern diskettes still have the little arrow that pointed to where you were to pinch it! It's too bad that the 3" didn't carry the field. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Aug 30 13:27:47 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:27:47 +0200 Subject: A tree to grow (Was: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)) In-Reply-To: <009701c6cb7a$a87f4700$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <44F5F4C3.25588.546E3A5E@localhost> Haveing taken a day of, I stil lthink I should set some things in perspective. Am 29 Aug 2006 9:51 meinte Jay West: > Hans wrote.... > > Now, hold the horses. Has there been something I missed? > > Like some putsch? So, who is the ruler that gave us the > > revocation of our basic rule, right today? > That would be me, the owner of this list. And given my past indulgence of > many peoples behaviour on the list, I rather resent the "ruler" and "right > revoker" implication/characterization that you make. > This has been a benevolent dictatorship for a long time - since I took over > the list many years ago. [...] Now, lets just skip some of the more of the rather arrogant satements (my impression here) in your note and refresh my Memory. I got to this list when it was a rather small group. That muyt have been arround late 1997, since Sallam pointed me short after VCF 1.0 here. I joined with a letter to Bill Whiton (sp?), who founded this list not long before. later on I lerned that one of the main reasons that lead to greating this list was the rather questionable handling of strict policies about what's on topic for a 'classic' group in the relevant usenet group (a..f.c ?). I was given a warm wellcome, and what I found was a small group of rather unique and mature people. People that did have a real life, quite a difference to some tight bean counters often found. This rich vault of knowledge not only includes profound computer knowledge, but was eualy visible when the topics discussed went astray. I may not have agreed to quite some topics or viewpoints stated, quite in contrast, but this was one of the very apealing parts of this list. Other than in other places, the people where not steamlined - or more correct filtered out to leave a boring bunch of likeminded. The fact that people who would otherwise maybe never even thought of each other not only cooperated on a very narrowed down topic but rather shared their view and ideas made this list unique among any other I ever been on. Discusions happened on multi levels instead of just hitting each others head, as in most such groups. Mature in every sense of the word. And even the most firce discusion about weapons or cars came in a natural way all back sooner or later to our core topic. I don't remember any intervention of Bill at all. There was no ruling beside two things - The 10 year rule and asking Bill in a nice way to be on the list. This freedom made the list grow. I've been on quite a lot of other lists during the same years, and most died - in my understanding due to much restrictions and atemts to rule. Over the years Bill moved ahead, not realy able anymore to maintain the list active. As one change, subscription became automatic. The basic list culture stayed the same. Since Bill left his former work, the future wasn't secure, and at some point the hosting would have ended. This is where Jay stood up and offered his service to host the list. As far as I remember, there was a geat understanding that the list gets moved to a new server and will be run as the same great forum it has been before. When Jay needed additional support and hardware, he got all support he needed. Any yes, I (and I guess we all) apreciate the effort Jay took to keep the list going on. It was the right thing to do. Ther's no doubt about. Just somewhere on the road the it changed from maintaining a service to the community to an attitude to rule it and force things instead of letting it flow. You are using the term 'took over' yourself, and 'owner' (I somehow missed the moment when the list got sold) ... well, grabbing things and force one opinion onto others sounds not realy mature to me. There's a huge diference between takeing resonsibility and takeing over. In my humble understanding, the list has never become or been your property. If there is any 'owner' who might rule on his own ground, so it is the people. What about just going back to what this list was founded on, freedom and real people? To me such efforts are like planting a tree. One may take a little seed, plant it, look daily after it, use lots of torture devices, cut it all arround, controll every little aspect, and if realy good at it - and lucky - one gets a cute bonsai tree. Just, most of us are lacking the decades of training, and needed discipline and daily routine to get more out than a crippled tree. Or one may just plant a little oak tree in a good spot near a river and let it grow. Walk by every other year to watch it grow to a mighty Oak. It might not become a cadidate for a beauty contest, it may lean to some side, have twisted arms and a rough outside, but it will be a strong and sturdy tree. Only the freedom to grow will make it the Oak it is supposed to be. A place to walk by, a great shade in the hot days, and a secure place to sit down and watch your children grow. Now, Jay, since you took it onto your person, all I ask is to take a step back, think a moment about what is the foundation - for the list and your work - do the right thing ... mabe a few hours under the shadow of a large tree on a beautiful late August day. And have a great one Hans -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Aug 30 13:25:44 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:25:44 -0400 Subject: NonPC x86s (was: Statement & apology In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060830104206.05c929c8@mail.30below.com> References: <0J4S004A1IONOPI6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20060830104206.05c929c8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 8/30/06, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Hrm, not much so far, but I did stumble across a reference to a > multiprocessor 486 called a "LSX5030" which ran (ick) SCO... I saw a DEC digital dual 486 computer years ago. I did not buy it because of the then "expensive" $55 price. vax, 9000 =-=-= > > AST made an SMP 486/50 box... > > =-=-= > > Ah well, I can't seem to find any references to it right now... > > Laterz, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers > _??_ zmerch at 30below.com > ((c)||(r)) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > > From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Aug 30 13:44:42 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:44:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <008e01c6cbb4$b0aa7230$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <20060830184442.7761558512@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Evan Koblentz > > >>> How many here are objecting to the idea of a Pentium as a classic > because the PC killed their favorite platform. > > I object to Pentiums (and for that matter, 486s and most 386 stuff too) as > classics because there's absolutely nothing classic about them. Yes, some > people might collect them, and maybe someday we'll look back on Pentiums > with longing. But right now they are just taking up space on our desks and > landfills. > But we could probably talk about their use as tools for vintage computers.. ie a storage device for a Commodore 64 with a XE1541 cable and 64HDD. Or to archive C= diskettes by hooking up a 1541/71 to that device with the same cable and using something like Star Commander. Cheers, Bryan From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 30 13:58:24 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:58:24 -0400 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: <44F5CC2A.5090700@rogerwilco.org> References: <0J4T00BYB53QBQB8@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <44F5CC2A.5090700@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <44F5DFD0.1090504@gmail.com> J Blaser wrote: > If the 3100 doesn't have VMS but Ultrix, I'll have to think about what's > next. I don't know if Ultrix can support netboot capabilities ala BOOTP > or RARP. Not only can Ultrix mopboot a VAX, but NetBSD can too! I've even used mopd on NetBSD/i386 to netboot a VAX. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 30 14:31:35 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:31:35 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F5D289.7010005@dakotacom.net> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> <200608290649.CAA09130@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44F45B40.50907@dakotacom.net> <20060829164233.GG129@linus.groomlake.area51> <44F49563.6090009@dakotacom.net> <200608291328070505.149BDDF9@10.0.0.252> <44F4A7C3.8060808@dakotacom.net> <44F4A97D.5080608@gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20060830102021.05a1aea8@mail> <44F5D289.7010005@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200608301231350674.00C649E5@10.0.0.252> On 8/30/2006 at 11:01 AM Don wrote: >Yes, and a Macedonian (?) married female's last name is a >diminutive form of her husband's last name. And married >females in western societies *tend* to use "Mrs". I don't know about Macedonian, but many Slavic languages decline the surname as to sex and marital status. And then there's the whole affair of patrynymics... Cheers, Chuck From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Aug 30 14:39:54 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 21:39:54 +0200 Subject: Pentium for Non-PC (Was Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)) In-Reply-To: <200608301341.53175.rtellason@verizon.net> References: Message-ID: <44F605AA.18014.54B0429B@localhost> Am 30 Aug 2006 13:41 meinte Roy J. Tellason: > On Tuesday 29 August 2006 08:42 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > A serious question : Was the Pentium ever used in a non-PC compatible? I > > know the 386 was -- there was a least one Sun that used it, and those > > interesting Sequent multi-processor 386 machines. Anything similar with > > the Pentium? If so, (and if they're more than 10 years old or whatever), > > I think I could easily consider those to be classic computers. > Interesting question. I know that the last time I was paying attention to > that area, embedded systems were starting to use 386 chips. And my Tek > scope has an 8088 in it... Now, the question is how to define 'Non-PC compatible'. After all, the PC itself isn't that hard defined. If you look on what machines DOS was running, including highly complex applications like Word, Autocad or even Windows, you'll find that the common denominator often just the use of a x86 CPU is. Thus every Pentium based computer would be PC-Compatible by definition. Over the year basicly all components have been moved in and out without damaging the PC definition - only one or the other application wasn't working anymore. As minimum we could go with asuming that if the Machine wasn't ment to run DOS/Windows it is Non-PC-Compatible. But that would includes of the shelf PCs sold with a different OS - like lots of PC Based Unix Workstations. As said before, we can start to remove BIOS, 8 Bit DMA, A20 Gate, and whatever, there will still be a way to load and run quite some if not all Software made for '100% PC-Compatible' computers. For the sake of the argument we can use a definition that the boot ROM does not contain a PC-alike BIOS and does not boot from DOS-like boot sectors - but now we are eleminateing lots of machines that never seen any DOS or Windows but where the developers used easy to buy BIOS code for bootstrap. Well ... in fact, not even a non x86 CPU can give us a Machine not able to boot DOS or Windows - if the loader gets first some loadable BIOS that includes an emulator, we'll boot into a perfectly PC-compatible system... Technology is a great thing - isn't it :) Leaving all the arguments beside, yes, I think there have been plenty of Non-PC-compatible Pentium Machines. Starting from standard x86 workstation boards that had different BIOS code to boot into some x86 Unix (like the Siemens WS 200) up to machines where specific boards have been made, which where using standard components, but not using features like floppy controlers or ISA-Bus interfaces. Just think, if you are supposed to design a Pentium class machine, would you waste all the money and build several custom chipsets, or would you rather use stuff that's available on the market? A nice example are the Pentium based Unix systems from SNI. The machines had up to 32 Pentuim 60 CPUs (later Pentium 100). A custom card/bus system was used, that was somewhat based on Multibus II. >From the whole design it was never ment as a PC nor I have seen Windows (except X-Window :) running on one, but the chipset used on the CPU boards was an Intel 430FX - all you need for a compatible PC design. Oh, and don'T forget the Pentium Pro based 'Supercomputers' :) So, I guess we have a dual answer: Yes, there have been Non-PC-Compatible system made and sold in large numbers. No, there is no such thing as a Non-PC-Compatible x86 computer Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Aug 30 14:35:56 2006 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 21:35:56 +0200 Subject: DATIP from clr always? (obscure unibus & pdp-11 question) In-Reply-To: <200608301735.k7UHZvT5013786@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: >From: Brad Parker >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: DATIP from clr always? (obscure unibus & pdp-11 question) >Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:35:57 -0400 > >An obscure unibus & pdp-11 question: > >Does "clr" always do a DATIP (i.e. read-modify-write) on all 11's? > >It does on my 11/44. Something tells me I've seen threads (long ago) on >this and the perils of using clr as opposed to "mov #0," when talking to >hardware. > >The rl01 bootstrap does it talking to rl11 registers, which tripped me >up for a bit. > >-brad The only difference between CLR and MOV #0 that I think of immediately is that CLR clears the Carry flag too, whereas MOV #0 does not affect the Carry flag. That is needed to do multi-word ADD or SUB. - Henk, PA8PDP. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Messenger: deel je foto's en bestanden http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=nl-nl From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 30 14:37:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:37:37 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <20060830103859.W2832@shell.lmi.net> References: <003d01c6cb2c$bdc37260$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <44F45858.7010304@dakotacom.net> <200608291001040858.13DE507E@10.0.0.252> <200608301244.41648.rtellason@verizon.net> <20060830103859.W2832@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200608301237370865.00CBD0B4@10.0.0.252> On 8/30/2006 at 10:42 AM Fred Cisin wrote: >Still there in Int 21h function 9! Or, if you want to get really retro, it's still there as: mov cl,9 mov dx, offset message call 5 >also, fixed length with padding character (FCBs), >also, keeping start and end pointers I may have have seen it, but I can't recall any software that stores ASCII strings as 7-bit with the last character in a record having the high-order bit set. Then, there's the matter of multiple blank compression... Cheers, Chuck From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Aug 30 13:01:11 2006 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:01:11 -0500 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608291703.k7TH3OsS037876@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608291703.k7TH3OsS037876@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 12:03 -0500 8/29/06, Don wrote: >IMO, this was a mistake. It forces the OS to know too much >about the applications that run on it -- instead of being a >resource manager. I.e. it should implement mechanisms, not >policy. There is at least one reason this may not be a mistake in all contexts. If the OS knows something about the files, and about the applications available, it can help me out by connecting the two (or by notifying me that the needed application is not available). That allows me to double-click on a .jpeg file and have a jpeg viewer launched automatically by the OS to open that file. The alternative is of course for me to find my own jpeg viewer, launch it, and then open the same file. The advantages here are that I'll get the *right* jpeg viewer, the OS can be much simpler, and the file can be smaller and named with greater flexibility. File type information could be imbedded in the name (.3), in a "file information" block a la MacOS-Classic, or inside the file itself. I can even imagine an OS with a "guess-the-application" facility, which is actually an application itself that guesses which other application to launch and pass the file to based solely on the file's content or context (though I can imagine that facility failing from time to time). I think any of these strategies could (and do?) work. I'm not sure that selecting one over the other is a mistake, just a choice adapting the OS to a different function. Some rely more on the user's input, some take more machine resources and are less transportable. -- - Mark Cell Phone: 210-379-4635 office: 210-522-6025 From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 14:49:32 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:49:32 -0400 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <20060830105543.U2832@shell.lmi.net> References: <003d01c6cb2c$bdc37260$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <200608301016400063.004AC26B@10.0.0.252> <20060830105543.U2832@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200608301549.32483.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 30 August 2006 02:04 pm, Fred Cisin wrote: > > >Some of the CP/M tools used $ as a string terminator, if I'm > > > remembering right... > > On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Actually, it's BDOS call 9--preserved to this day in MS-DOS/Windoze. > > I've no idea why a printable character was selected as a terminator. > > Anyone have any idea of its origin? > > IIRC, I saw an interview long ago, (maybe when Gary Kildall was the > co-host with Jim Warren of Computer Chronicles?), in which Gary > APOLOGIZED for that, and said that it had been a temporary kludge, > and hadn't originally been meant to be permanent. Heh. I never could understand the reason for that, when a zero byte is so much easier to test for... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Aug 30 14:46:00 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:46:00 -0400 Subject: Philips PM3214 O-scope manual needed Message-ID: <01C6CC4B.86EE1040@MSE_D03> Thanks, Don & Nico; my appreciative replies off-list. Still looking though... mike From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Aug 30 15:04:19 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:04:19 +0200 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <200608301244.41648.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608291001040858.13DE507E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44F60B63.29574.54C69BAD@localhost> On Tuesday 29 August 2006 01:01 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > How many ways are there of representing variable length character strings? > And how many have you run into? Off the top of my head, I've seen--on the > MS-DOS/Windows platform the following: byte count+data, word count+data, > data terminated by 00, data terminated by 0a, data terminated by 0d, data > terminated by 1F, and probably a few others that don't occur to me right > off. Well, in general you have two ways: a) Externaly - aka Length terminated Due some way you know how many symbols there are b) Internaly - aka Stop marker A special Symbol or set of symbols marks the end All can be seen as records/structures with the two components. Classic subcategories are a1) Length before the string (structure with two elements) a2) Length in a different place (e.g. some list, or a structure with stringlength and pointer) b1) A dedicated symbol after the last - e.g. x'00, '$', etc. that does not is part of the information b2) A modifier, like using 2^8 as an endmarker - eg. the last symbol has this bit set (or not set) You may form endless variations of these concepts - as many as you got time on your hand, and belive me, the last 50 years gave developers quite some time to invent the world over and over. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Aug 30 15:35:05 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:35:05 Subject: Need microprocessor trainer, oscilloscope advice? In-Reply-To: References: <001801c6cbc6$66047890$75f2ce0c@gatewaynotebook> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060830153505.349f1a04@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I couldn't agree more with Tony's recommendations. However if you can find one for a reasonable price the Heathkit and HP 5036 trainers are great. I praticularly like the HP if you can get all the manuals for it since they also teach you how to use logic probes, logic analyzers, etc. Be carefull buying older Tektronix scopes, the capacitors and switches go bad in them with age and if they're not used regularly. Joe At 02:03 AM 8/30/06 +0100, Tony wrote: >> >> Hello All. I'm new to this list and would like some advice on learning = >> the inner workings of vintage computers. I have some basic experience = >> with electronics and some simple measurement tools (multimeter, logic = >> probe). So far, I've repaired a couple of older machines (Kaypro's, = >> Compaq portables) but this has amounted to swapping dead hard or floppy = >> drives, replacing dead batteries, etc. So here are my questions: (1) Is = >> there a "trainer" system good for learning about microcomputer design = > >There certainly _were_ Heathkit made at least one, so did (IIRC) HP. They >turn up on E-bay from time to time, but tend to go for what I consider to >be rather too much money. > >What I would do in your position is get one of the simpler, but >well-known, 8 bit micros with few, if any, gate array chips (an Apple ][, >but not a //e, for example). And make sure a schematic is available. >Then, armed with test equipment, try to _really_ understand the design. >The first machine you do this for will take a long time. Later on you'll >be able to understand the schematic of a newly-obtained machine in a >couple of days. > >Of course if you pick a machine that somebody else here knows about, you >can ask on the list questions like 'What the heck is NAND gate U24b for'. > >> and operation, and (2) would an oscilloscope be useful for this purpose, = >> and if so, what Mhz rating is needed to work on older machines? I've = > >This is a personal thing. I don't use a 'scope much, prefering a logic >analyser, others prefer a 'scope. > >But as I've said before, the most important piece of test equipment is a >brain. I've sorted out quite nasty logic faults using a multimeter, an >LED+resistor, and a lot of thought. But give the best logic analyser in >the world to somebody who doesn't know what they are doing, and it won't >help them at all. > >To answer your second question, aim for a bandwidth ('MHz rating') of >about 3 times the fastest signal you want to look at (this may be the >master clock frequency). For most 8 bit micros, a 50MHz 'scope is fine. > >And just as 'nobody ever got fired for buying IBM', you rarely go wrong >if you huy a Tektronix 'scope (no I don't work for them, I just like >their products). > >-tony > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 30 15:08:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:08:14 -0700 Subject: Sharp PC-1211 In-Reply-To: <200608301343.34557.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44F3A15A.1090505@dakotacom.net> <9e2403920608291802o5a677279r229a311c74ddd0cf@mail.gmail.com> <200608301343.34557.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608301308140134.00E7D585@10.0.0.252> On 8/30/2006 at 1:43 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >On Tuesday 29 August 2006 09:02 pm, Josef Chessor wrote: >> mercury cells. Today, since they're illegal in the US from what I >> understand, > >Are they? Anybody know for sure? I know they were hard to find last time Yup. Many states began banning mercury cells in the early 90's. The Federal government has the "Mercury-Containing and Rechargeable Battery Management Act of 1996" of which Title II phased out the sale of mercury cells. Here's a link to an EPA brochure: http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/hazwaste/recycle/battery.pdf Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 30 15:15:22 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:15:22 -0500 Subject: new list References: <200608301302.55725.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <00a001c6cc71$05d95de0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Roy wrote.... > I started a > yahoo group for folks to discuss the 10-year-rule and the similar stuff > that's been bogging things down in here lately. You can join it at: > > 10-year-rule-subscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Feel free, and have fun. > > Now, can we get back to talking about classic computers (by whatever > definition)? I know it's the "10 year rule" list, but I was wondering about an RSS feed for it. And please, please put a tag in the subject line of all posts like [10-year-rule] so I know what messages are what. And make damn sure the reply-to address for your list is not the original poster, cause I don't believe in RFC's and that ilk. Or is all that kinda stuff considered off-topic? So just what IS on topic on your list? I'm really hoping we can post more on the topic of what is on topic than the real topic of the list. I'm sure that's ok. ha ha J From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 30 15:17:42 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:17:42 -0700 Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <20060830111301.A2832@shell.lmi.net> References: <3.0.6.16.20060828162500.109f9a2c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20060828202619.E96581@shell.lmi.net> <200608301202.49893.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608301024440400.0052265B@10.0.0.252> <20060830111301.A2832@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200608301317420584.00F081F0@10.0.0.252> On 8/30/2006 at 11:19 AM Fred Cisin wrote: >It's too bad that the 3" didn't carry the field. What's too bad is that the 3.5" diskettes don't completely seal dust away. The hub area still represents a way for contaminants (and spilled coffee) to migrate into the works. But then, given the quality of the blank media produced over the last 5 years, it probably doesn't matter anyway. We've still got a a couple of customers with things like CNC equipment and embroidery machines who are interested in maintaining some sort of floppy support for their oddball formats under Vista. My inclination is to say that floppy drives on PCs are going the way of the buggy whip fast--and that it might be better to sell a floppy emulator to be fit to the original machine that uses some sort of solid-state removeable memory. If you were betting on the next 10-15 years, what medium that holds about a MB or so would you choose? Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 30 15:32:36 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:32:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) Message-ID: <200608302032.k7UKWa78084931@keith.ezwind.net> --- Fred Cisin wrote: >> snip << > > My early Shugart 3.5" diskettes had no shutter. > Then came the manually slide open, and pinch the > corner to close. > Many fairly modern diskettes still have the little > arrow that pointed to > where you were to pinch it! > > It's too bad that the 3" didn't carry the field. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > I always wondered what the arrow was for. Thanks for that Fred. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 30 15:26:53 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:26:53 -0400 Subject: A tree to grow (Was: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)) In-Reply-To: <44F5F4C3.25588.546E3A5E@localhost> References: <44F5F4C3.25588.546E3A5E@localhost> Message-ID: <200608301626.53640.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 30 August 2006 14:27, Hans Franke wrote: > Now, Jay, since you took it onto your person, all I ask is to take > a step back, think a moment about what is the foundation - for the > list and your work - do the right thing ... mabe a few hours under > the shadow of a large tree on a beautiful late August day. Hans, I wish that I had as much time as you do to spend on topics that are as TRIVIAL as this. Can't we all just MOVE ON??? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 30 15:28:38 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:28:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: <44F5DFD0.1090504@gmail.com> References: <0J4T00BYB53QBQB8@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <44F5CC2A.5090700@rogerwilco.org> <44F5DFD0.1090504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200608302029.QAA01017@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Not only can Ultrix mopboot a VAX, but NetBSD can too! I've even > used mopd on NetBSD/i386 to netboot a VAX. And I have my MicroVAX-II set up to boot diskless off a SPARC. It's not all that difficult. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 30 07:37:53 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 08:37:53 -0400 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives Message-ID: <0J4T0038I9L6ZJE6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives > From: "Dan Williams" > Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:36:48 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >> If the 3100 is running VMS it can netboot VMS to a target VAX system so >> long as there is a network between them. Though Netbsd may be easier for >> those more familiar with Linux/unix. >> >> >> >> Allison >> >> >> >I think VMS must be the fastest and easiest setup for netbooting out >of any OS I have used. Just one program type in a few details and it >works. I have spent far to long trying to figure out what went wrong >with netbooting to find I had an extra ";" or similar somewhere it >shouldn't be, or didn't have one where it should. I do too but if your not somewhat familiar with VMS it could be a minefield. I pointed out the unix path for those that know it and are most comfortable there. Myself I just cluster boot systems that have empty disks or I want to see what's on the disks. The best way to get at the VAX disks is a working VAX. Archiving them is a different propisition. Myself I have a boatload of RZ56s (5.25" full height 680mb SCSI disks) and a few BA42 boxes to put them in and a CMD SCSI controller for Qbus. This allows me to image from any Qbus VAX I can fit the controller into or use one of my pack of uVAX3100s SCSI interface. With eight RX56s on hand and a few 1gb Baracudas I have a solid image and backup archive. Allison From david.l9.lewallen at lmco.com Wed Aug 30 14:59:31 2006 From: david.l9.lewallen at lmco.com (Lewallen, David L9) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:59:31 -0500 Subject: SGI Dials & Buttons and no P/S Message-ID: <438429DA88BC864999D195A89E0C973A189F9A@emss02m08.us.lmco.com> Hi; The usual pinout from the CPU to buttons is CPU 2,3,5 to Buttons 3,2,7 respectively. (9 pin) The power is 5 volts 850 ma with the center pin negative. (3mm circular plug) The cable from the buttons to the dials, i don't know. You only need power To the buttons box, the buttons to dials cable has a power wire. Some dials come with the cable as a pigtail. Note, the jack screws (posts) that the cable screws go into are metric. You might want to re-tap them to English 4-40 so most cable connectors will fit. The interface to this uses some kind of Unix GLUT. It is not defined down to the parameter block that goes out to the boxes. You will probably have to hack that. If you know anyone with the parameter block or protocol, please post. I believe the buttons is some kind of 32 bit mask setup. Good luck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 30 15:10:53 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:10:53 -0400 Subject: "File types" Message-ID: <0J4T00AZLUKBY3W5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: "File types" > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 11:04:03 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> >Some of the CP/M tools used $ as a string terminator, if I'm remembering >> >right... > >On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Actually, it's BDOS call 9--preserved to this day in MS-DOS/Windoze. I've >> no idea why a printable character was selected as a terminator. Anyone >> have any idea of its origin? > >IIRC, I saw an interview long ago, (maybe when Gary Kildall was the >co-host with Jim Warren of Computer Chronicles?), in which Gary >APOLOGIZED for that, and said that it had been a temporary kludge, >and hadn't originally been meant to be permanent. > > >For their first assignment, I have my assembly language students write a >program to display their name AND the price that they paid for the >textbook (to force use of function 2, instead of 9). We then use creating >their own puts() function to get into jumps, conditional jumps, and loops. I did that once to annoy someone only the dollar sign was faked by adding 80h to it so the terminator was not observed by BDOS-9. Another time I modded CP/M itself to use null (00h) instead. Then again I didn't want it to be portable. ;) Allison From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 30 15:46:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:46:16 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F60B63.29574.54C69BAD@localhost> References: <200608291001040858.13DE507E@10.0.0.252> <44F60B63.29574.54C69BAD@localhost> Message-ID: <200608301346160377.010AA82C@10.0.0.252> On 8/30/2006 at 10:04 PM Hans Franke wrote: >You may form endless variations of these concepts - as many >as you got time on your hand, and belive me, the last 50 years >gave developers quite some time to invent the world over and over. How about CDC 6000 character records--terminated by 12 bits of zero but only if in the low-order 12 bits of a 60-bit word? Otherwise, 00 in any other position signified one or more colons. That gave a lot of programmers fits--there were double-colon sequences that could not be represented. Punch two colons as the 8th and 9th characters of an input record and see two colons read as input. Move them over one character and see an end-of-line instead. Or, the hardware could design a special character or condition, such as a tape IRG, or a 1620 record or group mark--that did not represent data on the machine. There's also one other interesting one that I've seen--the first character of a record specifies the ending delimiter: "XorX", for the string "or". Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 30 15:46:26 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NonPC x86s (was: Statement & apology In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060830104206.05c929c8@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Aug 30, 2006 11:47:36 AM Message-ID: <200608302046.k7UKkQT5011773@onyx.spiritone.com> > Maybe pentium for "non-PC" - I once had a DEC server which had 3 486DX2/66 > CPUs and I think it was sufficiently non-compatible enough that it couldn't > run Windows (but there might've been a special MSDOS for it, tho, I'm not > sure) -- and I *think* they'd made some CPU cards that could take a > Pentium, but this might just conjecture & bitrot playing tricks on me... ;-) I think the key thing here is that by the time the Pentium hit the scene, companies were learning to leverage others R&D, and breaking free of the NiH Syndrome. While BEOS started out as a very cool, very custom dual PPC box, they quickly figured out that Apple offered a more realistic target, and when Apple failed to buy them out (I still think that was a mistake), and locked them out of the G3, they moved to x86. NeXT started life with very cool 68k boxes, but expanded to Sun, HP, and x86 HW by the time Apple bought them. Even Apple is now running on what is practically a PC, with just enough differences to keep people from running Mac OS X on "beige boxes". Take a look at prior to PCI, and even for quite a while after PCI came out, most Workstation companies had thier own slot format. That proved to be bad business sense. Everyone moved to PCI, but largely had thier own firmware which required buying the cards from them. How long did it take Sun to move off of S-Bus to PCI? Yet they've already moved their workstations to PCI-X and PCI-Express. Does anyone use non-Industry standard cards anymore? It doesn't matter that people like us like choices, as the Industry matures, the differences will shrink even further. How many Workstation companies with superior versions of Unix are now pushing Linux? Or are just plain dead. I for one would *LOVE* to see a viable OS that isn't Windows or Unix (let's be serious Mac OS X is now Unix with a different face), and isn't POSIX compliant. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 30 15:51:05 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:51:05 -0700 Subject: new list In-Reply-To: <00a001c6cc71$05d95de0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <200608301302.55725.rtellason@verizon.net> <00a001c6cc71$05d95de0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200608301351050875.010F12FA@10.0.0.252> Roy wrote.... > I started a yahoo group for folks to discuss the 10-year-rule and the similar stuff > that's been bogging things down in here lately. You can join it at: > > 10-year-rule-subscribe at yahoogroups.com > > Feel free, and have fun. Are you using just 365 day years or are you including 366 day (leap) years? Or are you simply defining a year as 365.25 days? :) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 30 15:55:31 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new list In-Reply-To: <200608301351050875.010F12FA@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060830205531.83703.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Roy wrote.... > > I started a yahoo group for folks to discuss the > 10-year-rule and the > similar stuff > > that's been bogging things down in here lately. > You can join it at: > > > > 10-year-rule-subscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > > Feel free, and have fun. > > Are you using just 365 day years or are you > including 366 day (leap) years? > Or are you simply defining a year as 365.25 days? > > :) LOL LOL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 15:57:34 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:57:34 -0400 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <20060830184442.7761558512@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060830184442.7761558512@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <200608301657.34929.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 30 August 2006 02:44 pm, Bryan Pope wrote: > But we could probably talk about their use as tools for vintage > computers.. ie a storage device for a Commodore 64 with a XE1541 > cable and 64HDD. Or to archive C= diskettes by hooking up a 1541/71 > to that device with the same cable and using something like > Star Commander. Yes. I'm still looking for cross-assemblers for 8-bit parts, particularly if I can find ones that run under linux. I do have a Kaypro in the room that I could no doubt find an assembler to run on and so forth but I really don't have a place to set it up at the present time. Maybe an emulator or something? I do have some stuff that I think runs under dos, but then I'd need to set up a dos emulator... Suggestions? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 16:00:55 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:00:55 -0400 Subject: new list In-Reply-To: <00a001c6cc71$05d95de0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <200608301302.55725.rtellason@verizon.net> <00a001c6cc71$05d95de0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200608301700.55946.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 30 August 2006 04:15 pm, Jay West wrote: > Roy wrote.... > > > I started a yahoo group for folks to discuss the 10-year-rule and the > > similar stuff that's been bogging things down in here lately. You can > > join it at: > > > > 10-year-rule-subscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > > Feel free, and have fun. > > > > Now, can we get back to talking about classic computers (by whatever > > definition)? > > I know it's the "10 year rule" list, but I was wondering about an RSS feed > for it. And please, please put a tag in the subject line of all posts like > [10-year-rule] so I know what messages are what. And make damn sure the > reply-to address for your list is not the original poster, cause I don't > believe in RFC's and that ilk. Or is all that kinda stuff considered > off-topic? So just what IS on topic on your list? I'm really hoping we can > post more on the topic of what is on topic than the real topic of the list. > I'm sure that's ok. > > ha ha > > J I'll fiddle with it when I get some time and see what can be done... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 16:02:44 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:02:44 -0400 Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <200608301317420584.00F081F0@10.0.0.252> References: <3.0.6.16.20060828162500.109f9a2c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20060830111301.A2832@shell.lmi.net> <200608301317420584.00F081F0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608301702.44107.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 30 August 2006 04:17 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > But then, given the quality of the blank media produced over the last 5 > years, it probably doesn't matter anyway. I'll say! I've never had as much trouble with 5.25" and 8" as I've had with 3.5" in recent years. Not just the media, but the drives, too. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 16:03:48 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:03:48 -0400 Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <200608302032.k7UKWa78084931@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608302032.k7UKWa78084931@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200608301703.48212.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 30 August 2006 04:32 pm, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > My early Shugart 3.5" diskettes had no shutter. > > Then came the manually slide open, and pinch the > > corner to close. > > Many fairly modern diskettes still have the little > > arrow that pointed to where you were to pinch it! > > > > It's too bad that the 3" didn't carry the field. > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > I always wondered what the arrow was for. > Thanks for that Fred. I grabbed one that was handy on my desk here to look at it, and the arrow was pointing at a blob of solder that had hit the thing, which I then removed... Dunno what's on that one, but no label means I'm not too worried about it. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 30 16:03:50 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:03:50 -0400 Subject: Need microprocessor trainer, oscilloscope advice? In-Reply-To: <001801c6cbc6$66047890$75f2ce0c@gatewaynotebook> References: <001801c6cbc6$66047890$75f2ce0c@gatewaynotebook> Message-ID: <4664e09f646a2bfcacf5b9b6f03d168c@neurotica.com> On Aug 29, 2006, at 7:53 PM, John D. Reeve wrote: > Hello All. I'm new to this list and would like some advice on > learning the inner workings of vintage computers. I have some basic > experience with electronics and some simple measurement tools > (multimeter, logic probe). So far, I've repaired a couple of older > machines (Kaypro's, Compaq portables) but this has amounted to > swapping dead hard or floppy drives, replacing dead batteries, etc. > So here are my questions: (1) Is there a "trainer" system good for > learning about microcomputer design and operation, and (2) would an > oscilloscope be useful for this purpose, and if so, what Mhz rating is > needed to work on older machines? I've noticed the price is directly > proportional to this number! Thanks, John R. Don't worry, you don't need much bandwidth for troubleshooting older TTL logic...a 35MHz or 50MHz scope will do fine. I recommend a Tektronix 453...They're small, cheap, reliable, and very capable. Don't be fooled; it's a high-end professional oscilloscope, but it's old...hence cheap. Like computers, they don't become less capable with age, but unlike computers, we still do the exact same thing with oscilloscopes now that we did 75 years ago...graph voltage against time on a display. Today's 'scopes do things like FFTs and limit testing, but 99% of most peoples' needs (whether they believe it or not) will be met just fine with an old Tek 453 or 465. You can probably pick a 453 up on eBay for less than $75. If you can afford more than that, look for a Tektronix 465 or 475. (or 475A, etc) Check out these URLs for very good info on the 453: http://www.diyguitarist.com/TestEquipment/Tektronix453.htm http://www.reprise.com/host/scopes/default.asp I've had a 453 (still have it), a 475 (a friend has it now), and my current Tek scopes are a 2465A and a TDS-3012. I also have an HP 54111D, but it hasn't seen much use since I got the TDS-3012. For trainers...a Heathkit ET-3400 is small, cheap, and fun. HP made a REALLY nice one built around the 8085, but they tend to be not so cheap...I have a spare one that I'm about to put up on eBay. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 16:06:19 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:06:19 -0400 Subject: new list In-Reply-To: <200608301351050875.010F12FA@10.0.0.252> References: <200608301302.55725.rtellason@verizon.net> <00a001c6cc71$05d95de0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <200608301351050875.010F12FA@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608301706.19309.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 30 August 2006 04:51 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Roy wrote.... > > > I started a yahoo group for folks to discuss the 10-year-rule and the > > similar stuff that's been bogging things down in here lately. You can > > join it at: 10-year-rule-subscribe at yahoogroups.com > > > > Feel free, and have fun. > > Are you using just 365 day years or are you including 366 day (leap) years? > Or are you simply defining a year as 365.25 days? > > :) I dunno, take it up over there and see what shakes out... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 30 16:26:07 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:26:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) Message-ID: <200608302126.k7ULQ7dr086698@keith.ezwind.net> --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote : > On Wednesday 30 August 2006 04:17 pm, Chuck Guzis > wrote: > > But then, given the quality of the blank media > produced over the last 5 > > years, it probably doesn't matter anyway. > > I'll say! I've never had as much trouble with 5.2 5" > and 8" as I've had with > 3.5" in recent years. Not just the media, but th e > drives, too. > > -- I agree with the media part. Used to use Imation disks (bought from Argos here in the UK) for my Amiga games and stuff. The disks (particularly the casing) are rather poor, especially compared to old Amiga disks I have. I generally try to buy Verbatim disks, which are of a far higher quality, these days. However, they are hard to find - they can be bought online, but you need a PC/Mac running appropriate (e.g. up to date) software for the internet sites (and no, you can't buy them direct from Verbatim - they simply redirect you to other online sites). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 16:14:21 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:14:21 -0400 Subject: board found Message-ID: <200608301714.21476.rtellason@verizon.net> I looked in a box here that I hadn't looked into in a while, and found this board... It's _not_ ISA, PCI, or any of those formats. Says on the top "Panther EDAC Memory Board". There's also what appears to be an NCR copyright on it, 1993. There are a half dozen big chips across the bottom where the edge connectors are, 5 of them marked VLSI and one NCR with a 1990 copyright date on it, and eight SIMM (?) sockets, but these are not your standard ones -- if I take a 72-pin SIMM and line it up with the notch with one of the occupied sockets on the board, I have 3-4 pins left over (on the part on the board) at each end. Four of the sockets are occupied. The two in the middle that aren't are labeled "Bank-1/3 Byte-2" and "Bank-1/3 Byte-1", I can't see the markings for the other ones and don't want to pop these SIMMs out at the moment. Near the center of the board are four other sockets, with a chip in one of them, looks almost like a SIP but the pins are in two rows, real close together, coming out of the same side of the package (what do you call this?) and the part in the one socket that's occupied is marked "Toshiba" and "TC5117400Z-60". There are also 3 barcoded stickers one of which bears the date "Oct 31 1994" in the middle of two barcodes. This *may* belong with that NCR tower that went out of here a while back, I don't know for sure. Anybody know what it is? Anybody maybe have a use for it? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 30 16:32:30 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 09:32:30 +1200 Subject: NonPC x86s (was: Statement & apology In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060830104206.05c929c8@mail.30below.com> References: <0J4S004A1IONOPI6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20060830104206.05c929c8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > A serious question : Was the Pentium ever used in a non-PC compatible? Part of our experiment here (the Supernova detector hanging off of AMANDA, a neutrino detector with the oldest sensors embedded in the Ice being at least 10 years old ;-) uses a pair of VME crates with Pentium processors running RedHat Linux. The cards pretty much have everything on them - disk, network, video, serial... The VME crates are just a chunk of I/O space to the processor cards AFAIK. The OS doesn't talk to any VME cards, that's all up to our own app. For all intents and purposes, it might as well be an industry-standard Intel PC with strange I/O slots - architecturally, though it's close enough to a PeeCee that it just boots up a with a standard Linux boot floppy and installs right from a standard CD-ROM, so lack of PCI or ISA slots aside, you might call it PC-compatible. Standing in front of it, though, if you didn't know what it was, most people probably wouldn't recognize it as a "PC". -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 30 16:36:04 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:36:04 -0500 Subject: A tree to grow (Was: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)) References: <44F5F4C3.25588.546E3A5E@localhost> <200608301626.53640.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <014d01c6cc7c$4c105e70$6700a8c0@BILLING> Pat wrote... > Hans, I wish that I had as much time as you do to spend on topics that > are as TRIVIAL as this. > > Can't we all just MOVE ON??? Unfortunately, this I must address. And I really have much better things to spend my time on. J From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 30 15:48:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 21:48:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sharp PC-1211 In-Reply-To: <9e2403920608291802o5a677279r229a311c74ddd0cf@mail.gmail.com> from "Josef Chessor" at Aug 29, 6 08:02:13 pm Message-ID: > There's a solution to the mercury battery issue. My 35 year-old Canon > 35mm SLR camera requires PX625 mercury cells. Today, since they're Indeed. this is a well-known problem for owners of many older cameras, and other measuring instruments which depend on the stable voltage from a mercury cell. Even some older electronic multimeters and more particularly analogue plotters [1]/recorders used a mercury cell as a reference [1] I suspect some of the old analogue X-Y flatbeds were used on digital computers. They were certainly used on analogue computers. There, this sort-of scrapes being on-topic ;-) Incidentally, I read somewhere that the Eastern Bloc couldn't make reliable mercury cells at one time, so they designed their cameras not to need them. Things like Prakticas and Exaktas use a balanced [2] weatstone bridge circuit (meaning it's in balance at the correct exposure point) which is independant of the battery voltage, of course. [2] Unlike the Pentax Spotmatic where the correct exposure point is slightly off-balance (the service manual gives a certain current to be flowing through the galvaometer coil to get it to the 0 marker). %deity knows why it was done this way.... > illegal in the US from what I understand, there exists what's called > the 'Wein cell'. 1.35V zinc-air battery. Yes. The problem with zinc air cells is that they have a fairly short life once you've let the air in. Fune if you're using the instruemtn every day, not so good if you want to use it for a few days and then put it away for a few nonths. There are other solutions too. One is to use a silver oxide cell (again stable voltage, but not the same voltage as a mercury cell) and drop the excess 0.2V with a shottky diode. Another is to use a micropower regulator circit. > Of course I don't know exactly what the PC-1211 requires, but it's a thought. They're not PX625-size, that's for sure... I forget what they are. Anyway, with 4 cells, a Si diode drops about the right voltage to use alkaline cells. The unit doesn't depend on the exact battery voltage (not like a measuring instrument), it just doesn't like 6V. And there's plenty of room inside to fit a 1N4148 or whatever. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 30 15:54:28 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 21:54:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: C64 Packet carts In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060829202652.0baafd20@localhost> from "Tom Peters" at Aug 29, 6 08:35:57 pm Message-ID: > > You need the license, to start with. Then a 2-meter (144-148 MHz) radio.=20 > It's much easier if there's a data jack on it, like most mobile radios ha= > ve=20 > now a days. Packet radio only requires a few watts output, so a mobile=20 > radio set on low power is more than enough. Then you need a TNC, a termin= > al=20 > node controller, which is a modem for radio. The KPC-3 by Kantronics is b= > y=20 > far the most popular, though the KPC-3+ is better. Either should set you=20 > back less than $100, maybe much less. I've never seen a US amateur radio license, but the UK one says that the license is for 'self training in wireless telegraphy'. Now, I will happily agree there's a lot more to wireless telegraphy than making transmitters and receivers, but I am a little curious as to what 'self training' you get by buying a transciever, buying a TNC, plugging them together (and presumably use the standard 'rubber duck' aerial of the portable transceiver). Oh, and running pre-written software to talk to the TNC. There's nothing wrong with buying equipment, but IMHO you really should be thinking about doing some experimentation, modifications, and so on. Actually, one reason I've never got into packet radio is a lack of information one the internals of the TNC. I've not found an 'open' one -- as in published schematics and ROM source listings. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 30 15:55:37 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 21:55:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <005301c6cbd6$918f8620$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Aug 29, 6 08:49:44 pm Message-ID: > > I had written.... > >> There *IS* no 10-year rule. I'm really getting tired of saying that. It's > > To which Tony replied... > > This is the first I've heard of that! > > That's just silly. Please scan the archives. Look at just how many times I I truely do _not_ remember you removing the 10 year rule, and from other messages it seems quite a few other people don't either... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 30 16:01:29 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:01:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <005a01c6cbd6$f98fd270$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Aug 29, 6 08:52:39 pm Message-ID: > > Tony wrote.... > > I would agree. Sounds like it's time to found another list which goes > > back to the original 10 year rule. > If you want a list where most of the traffic is clone PC's running 98SE, > please do. > > > Probably CP/M is off-topic too... After all CP/M -> MS-DOS -> Windows. > I just don't get it. Apparently people just can't get the idea of what I'm > saying. So far people have actually pondered that I was saying the cutoff No I don't. Before the rule change last year, it was clear what a 'classic computer' was. It was one that was more than 10 years old. And also on-topic were things like software for such machines, emulators of such machines (no matter what they ran on), repair techniques, sources of spare parts, data preservation methods, interfacing relating to such machines and their peripherals (e.g. connecting a paper tape reader to a PC) and so on. I'll assume the second part of this is unchanged. But I do _NOT_ know what is now considered to be a classic computer. I am deadly serious here. All the definitions given so far could be taken to exclude things that darn well ought to be considered to be classics. Yes, my examples are somewhat tongue-in-cheek, I don't for a picosecond actually believe that anyone wants to exclude CP/M or the PERQ, or HP9000s or .... but none-the-less they _could_ be taken to be excluded by the definitions. So, can I please have (either posted to the list, or by private e-mail, whatever you think is more appropriate) an explicit definition of what is now considered to be a classic computer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 30 16:30:42 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:30:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <20060830100754.Y2832@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 30, 6 10:15:37 am Message-ID: > George Morrow suggested that we just cut a deal with the clothing industry > to increase the size of shirt poskets to 5.25 or 8 inches. :-) Useless fact. : the inside pockets of some Barbour wax jackets are the right size to carry 8" floppies. I carried a POS installation kit around that way at one point.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 30 16:35:25 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:35:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <200608301024440400.0052265B@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 30, 6 10:24:44 am Message-ID: > >And the story I've heard about the 3.5" size is that it fits in the pocket > >of a typical men's shirt. > > That's certainly the talk I heard back then. One innovation that's often > overlooked is the automatic shutter so that a paper "envelope" isn't needed Early 3.5" disks had a manual shutter, you had to slide it open before inserting the disk in the drive, and squeeze the corner of the disk to close it after ejecting the disk. Drives designed for those disks only couldn't take the now-standard disks with automatic shutters because they lacked the lever to open the shutter. AFAIK those disk could be used in later type drives withuut problems (such drives would open the shutters on old disks automatically, but you still had to squeeze the corner to close them after ejection) Was there an earlier type with no shutter at all? At one point HP offered an retrofit kit to update old drives to open the automatic shutters of the new-type of disk. I assume it consisted of a new disk holder/eject mechanism, but I don't know for sure. -tony From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Aug 30 16:55:43 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:55:43 -0700 Subject: DATIP from clr always? (obscure unibus & pdp-11 question) In-Reply-To: <200608301735.k7UHZvT5013786@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200608301735.k7UHZvT5013786@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <44F6095F.9060506@mindspring.com> Brad Parker wrote: > An obscure unibus & pdp-11 question: > > Does "clr" always do a DATIP (i.e. read-modify-write) on all 11's? > > It does on my 11/44. Something tells me I've seen threads (long ago) on > this and the perils of using clr as opposed to "mov #0," when talking to > hardware. > > The rl01 bootstrap does it talking to rl11 registers, which tripped me > up for a bit. > > -brad On all the discrete logic 11s and LSI11 the CLR instr does a DATI(P)/DATO sequence. This was done so that only one decode flow was necessary for the single operand instructions that modified the destination (ie, CLR/COM/INC/DEC/NEG/ROR/ROL/ASR/ASL/SWAB/ADC/SBC/SXT). TST is a specical case, read source but don't write. CLR is the only instruction that technically does not need to read the source operand, but they did the read anyway and just ignored the value. According to the PDP-11 CPU handbooks, the J-11 based designs did the extra optimization so a CLR does not do the read, only the write cycle (see item #36 in later handbooks). So if your hardware can't tolerate a read access to a register, then you can do a MOV #0,ADR instead of CLR ADR (and make a note in your code why so some poor soul 30 years from now understands why you are doing a non-optimal MOV #0,xxx!) Don From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Aug 30 17:09:26 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:09:26 -0400 Subject: DATIP from clr always? (obscure unibus & pdp-11 question) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 30 Aug 2006 21:35:56 +0200." Message-ID: <200608302209.k7UM9QBK010322@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Henk Gooijen" wrote: > >The only difference between CLR and MOV #0 that I think of immediately >is that CLR clears the Carry flag too, whereas MOV #0 does not affect the >Carry flag. That is functionally correct, but I don't believe the two are implemented that same (in microcode or hardware) in terms of what they do on the UNIBUS. My question was more, "in the various pdp-11 implementations", does CLR generate a read-modify-write (DATIP,DATO) on all the machines? A read-modify-write cycle on the unibus is not the same a normal read or write. I thought I could just ignore it but it turns out I can't (but it's not hard to support). -brad From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 30 16:46:31 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:46:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need microprocessor trainer, oscilloscope advice? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060830153505.349f1a04@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Aug 30, 6 03:35:05 pm Message-ID: > > I couldn't agree more with Tony's recommendations. However if you can > find one for a reasonable price the Heathkit and HP 5036 trainers are > great. I praticularly like the HP if you can get all the manuals for it I will admit to never having used either, but I've heard plenty of recomendations from them. My point was that you don't _need_ such a trainer. If you've got one, by all means use it. > since they also teach you how to use logic probes, logic analyzers, etc. Be > carefull buying older Tektronix scopes, the capacitors and switches go bad > in them with age and if they're not used regularly. It's like many older things. They will need a bit (a lot?) of TLC to get them back to rights. But personally, I'd rather get an old Tektronix and spend a month restoring it, knowing I've then got an instrument I can believe, than use certain modern-ish 'scopes that never seem to give a believable trace. Notice I said 'certain', there are pletny of (expensive) modern 'scopes that I would trust. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 30 17:01:36 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:01:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pentium for Non-PC (Was Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)) In-Reply-To: <44F605AA.18014.54B0429B@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Aug 30, 6 09:39:54 pm Message-ID: > Now, the question is how to define 'Non-PC compatible'. After all, > the PC itself isn't that hard defined. If you look on what machines I would argue the PC _was_ defined by the IBM Techref. > DOS was running, including highly complex applications like Word, > Autocad or even Windows, you'll find that the common denominator > often just the use of a x86 CPU is. There's a lot more to a machine than the CPU. Go back to the time of the IBM PC. There were several other 8088 boxes around that were not compatible. Sure they might have run MS-DOS or CP/M 86. But you couldn't take a bootable disk from one machine and boot it on another. In many cases applications programs from one machine wouldn't run on another, I seem to rememebr at least 3 levels of compatibiliy : OS compatible -- the MS-DOS calls were the same, any program that used those and those alone would run on both machines BIOS compatible -- the BIOS calls were the same. You could use those (and MS-DOS calls) and have no compatibility problems Hardware compatible. The memory map was much the same, I/O devices had the same registers at the same port addresses, the video system was the same, and so on. You could 'hit the bare metal' with no compatability problems. It is the last level that we normally consider when we talk about 'PC compatible' I think, > > Thus every Pentium based computer would be PC-Compatible by definition. By that defitinion _any_ computer is PC-Compatible. My HP71 could run an interpreter written in BASIC that treats a couple of 9114 floppies as the main memory of an emulated PC, and boots MS-DOS from a third one. Accesss to video RAM could be sent to the HPIL video interface, and so on. The fact that it would take years to even get to an MS-DOS prompt is irrelevant :-) But OK, I'll rephrase the question. Are there Pentium-based machines that can't run the standard Windows we all know and hate, or a slightly modified version of said software (and for reasons other than the trivial ones of insufficient memory or disk space etc). That is, I am thinking of machines with very different I/O devices, etc. It appears such machines do exist. And I would argue that once they reach sufficient age they should be considered as 'classics'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 30 17:07:43 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:07:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <200608301702.44107.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Aug 30, 6 05:02:44 pm Message-ID: > > On Wednesday 30 August 2006 04:17 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > But then, given the quality of the blank media produced over the last 5 > > years, it probably doesn't matter anyway. > > I'll say! I've never had as much trouble with 5.25" and 8" as I've had with > 3.5" in recent years. Not just the media, but the drives, too. You are not alone. I think I stated once before that I can remember paying \pounds 3.00 for a single 5.25" floppy disk. My TRS-80 model 1 stored 88K on said disk. But those 88K are still readable. Now I get get 5 1.44M disks for a single pound. It's rare that the data is readable a month later. Personally, I'd rather pay more for my disks and have the data last. My data is worth a lot more than the cost of the media. Anmd don't get me started on drives. I normallly stick an alignemnt disk in new floppy drives, just to check, and I've had far too many that are _way_ off in recent years. Again, they are simply too cheap. -tony From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Aug 30 17:13:31 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:13:31 -0400 Subject: DATIP from clr always? (obscure unibus & pdp-11 question) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 30 Aug 2006 14:55:43 PDT." <44F6095F.9060506@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <200608302213.k7UMDVN2012106@mwave.heeltoe.com> Don North wrote: > >On all the discrete logic 11s and LSI11 the CLR instr does a ... thanks! >So if your hardware can't tolerate a read access to a register, then you >can do a MOV #0,ADR instead of CLR ADR (and make a note in your code why >so some poor soul 30 years from now understands why you are doing a >non-optimal MOV #0,xxx!) I fixed the hardware :-) I was just curious about which machines did what. The problem was that the two transactions are back to back and the bus master keeps overnership. I was waiting for BBSY to go away... -brad From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 30 17:21:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:21:33 -0700 Subject: board found In-Reply-To: <200608301714.21476.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608301714.21476.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608301521330506.0161E3D1@10.0.0.252> On 8/30/2006 at 5:14 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >It's _not_ ISA, PCI, or any of those formats. Says on the top "Panther >EDAC Memory Board". There's also what appears to be an NCR copyright on it, >1993. Roy, according to my literature collection for that period, the NCR 3360 was known as "Panther". I believe it ran dual Pentium 60/75 or some such. EDAC of course, is "Error Detection and Correction". So it sounds like what you've got is a memory board for an NCR 3360 Panther server. Does this make sense to you? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 30 17:25:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:25:31 -0700 Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608301525310187.01658438@10.0.0.252> On 8/30/2006 at 10:35 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Early 3.5" disks had a manual shutter, you had to slide it open before >inserting the disk in the drive, and squeeze the corner of the disk to >close it after ejecting the disk. Drives designed for those disks only >couldn't take the now-standard disks with automatic shutters because they >lacked the lever to open the shutter. Was this universal? My Sony 2/3 height drive (40 cylinder, single side) will accept the shuttered disks just fine and it's about as early a 3.5" drive as one can find. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Aug 30 17:29:40 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:29:40 +0100 Subject: Enterprise 64/128 peripherals In-Reply-To: <44F49648.5010404@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 29/8/06 20:32, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > > I sent this one to Witchy the other day, but I think he's on holiday, so... > maybe there are other Enterprise experts on the list :) Not on holiday, just on the end of an upgraded Demon ADSLMax connection so it's up and down more often than a WinMe box in a west-facing wind. > Anyone know what Enterprise peripherals actually made it into production other > than the EXDOS interface? We've got a lot of marketing stuff with the machine > we were given the other day, and I've seen reference to expansion boxes, > memory modules, home security systems, graphics tablets, mice, speech > synthesisers. Strictly speaking, even the EXDOS interface wasn't properly released though several got out. The only other peripheral would be the Speakeasy voice synth though the mouse interface was there if you knew where to look for it. Schematics for the expansion interface, 4mb memory module etc are in my sweaty paws, all of the rest never happened unsurprisingly enough :) > I know the floppy drives themselves never existed outside of marketing > mock-ups. Not quite true, the 3" drives didn't exist but the 5.25" ones did but only because the standard Enterprise disk interface was Shugart 410 compatible. Even the hard drive interface I've got is standards compliant but only because someone made it so :) > In fact, did the Enterprise-branded monitor even make it? Enterprise seemed Of course not, it was a Microvitec 653 as seen for the Sinclair QL et al; you've seen my EP64 running on that very monitor at the 2005 CGE. > It's one seriously cool machine though, and the specs are pretty darn good for > the time (way ahead of most other UK micros that were about) - it really > deserved to do better. And it was solely designed in Cambridge and London :) The specs were fantastic for the time, it was defeated because it was released over 2 years after it was announced and was trounced by the similarly coloured (coincidence?) Amstrad CPC464, a massively inferior machine but one that won some of the hearts of the UK buying public despite the fact that most of its games were direct ports of the Spectrum...... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jvdg at sparcpark.net Wed Aug 30 08:34:00 2006 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:34:00 +0200 Subject: Age cutoff, was: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <001001c6cac8$2f8d7ef0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: On 8/28/06 7:34 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Or how about just "No beige boxes!" ;) NetBEAST, my NetBSD-running Mac SE/30, is upset about that statement. I would advise you not to upset NetBEAST any further. ,xtG .tsooJ -- Real programmers always mix up Halloween and Christmas, because Oct 31 == Dec 25 -- Joost van de Griek From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed Aug 30 17:55:07 2006 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:55:07 +0100 Subject: Sharp PC-1211 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44F6174B.4080109@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > [2] Unlike the Pentax Spotmatic where the correct exposure point is > slightly off-balance (the service manual gives a certain current to be > flowing through the galvaometer coil to get it to the 0 marker). %deity > knows why it was done this way.... So that a dead battery could never give a "correct exposure" indication? -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 30 18:09:47 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:09:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Octal Message-ID: <200608302309.k7UN9lCx093273@keith.ezwind.net> Hi, Someones signiture (the "real programmers get confused as Oct 31 = Dec 25") reminded me about Octal. I have heard of it, and know it's still used on the Calculator program on Windoze (2K), on the computers at work, but unlike Hex, Dec and Binary I have no idea what it could be used for, and why it would still be used today. Anyone care to fill in the gaps, please? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From daviderhart at oldzonian.com Wed Aug 30 17:57:34 2006 From: daviderhart at oldzonian.com (David W. Erhart) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:57:34 -0700 Subject: Help reading DEC tape PDP-8/E OS-8 format Message-ID: <003f01c6cc87$b0362eb0$6501a8c0@caladan> I'm looking for help and advice on how to read two DEC tapes that were given to me recently. I would like to save the data from the tapes on a CD-ROM and hopefully view the files on a WinXP system. I'm in the San Jose, California area. I don't have any DEC systems and know very little about DEC tapes. I'm assuming that the label is correct: "PDP-8/E OS-8 format", but I may be wrong. Here are a few pictures of the tapes in case it helps. http://www.sageandstride.org/DEC_tapes_001.jpg http://www.sageandstride.org/DEC_tapes_002.jpg http://www.sageandstride.org/DEC_tapes_003.jpg Any advice or help is appreciated. Thanks, david. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 30 18:15:03 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:15:03 -0500 Subject: A tree to grow References: <44F5F4C3.25588.546E3A5E@localhost> Message-ID: <01ab01c6cc8a$1ff4ae00$6700a8c0@BILLING> You wrote.... > Now, lets just skip some of the more of the rather arrogant satements > (my impression here) in your note and refresh my Memory. I would ask that you consider my view - your statements (before mine) asserting that I didn't have the right to make that decision were considered arrogant by me. That would most understandably cause my response to be a tad bit bristling (especially given the private complaints I was getting), whether you agree with my position or not. > And even the most firce discusion about weapons or cars came in a > natural way all back sooner or later to our core topic. I don't > remember any intervention of Bill at all. This is revisionist history (or at least incomplete). Where have you been? There's been lots of fierce discussion about weapons and cars (and other things) since Bill left. Remember M. Sokolov? And they didn't come back on-topic in any natural way I can assure you. I generally was taking people to task off-list (or getting yelled at privately for not doing so) to bring it back on-topic. Sometimes I had to yell publicly. As you aren't the list admin, you don't see the whole picture. You don't see the almost daily complaints I get about people talking about those weapons or cars to an extensive degree. You get the pleasure of being blissfully unaware. I get rather frequent emails from people saying they will unsub if those types of discussions don't stop (and some of those are long term members who contribute frequently with quality posts). This has been a problem for a long time, so much so that the list had to be split because of it. I fought this, but grudgingly agreed. I would not have agreed if I had any idea how much work on my end that would create on an on-going basis. And even after the list was split, right up to today, I have received constant complaints about the off-topicness of cctalk. Sooner or later, I need to do the right thing, and that will invariably upset some people. You obviously have no clue how much heat I get on a regular basis about this. Must be nice to just sit back and enjoy the environment here and assume it's just wonderful naturally. You're welcome. > There was no ruling beside two things - The 10 year rule Originally, the ten year rule was "an arbitrary thing". It was not picked with precision nor with real specific reason. With regards to the revocation of same, I honestly don't know where you were when this was discussed at GREAT length, MORE THAN ONCE on the list. Every time it was brought up - after discussion on the list - I went with the idea that the 10 year rule wasn't appropriate anymore. Most people on the list agreed. And when a few people keep bringing up an issue that was already beat to death so badly the horse was unrecognizable... sooner or later I'm going to say "enough". I totally disagree with your characterization that I am being dictatorial or setting up oppressive rules. And in all honestly, I think a majority of the list wouldn't characterize my past (nor present) behaviour that way. I think I've earned the benefit of the doubt that you seem to reserve. > This freedom made the list > grow. Dare I say, this 'freedom' you speak of tore the list apart, vis-a-vis cctalk vs. cctech. I like to think that in some *small* way it was *partly* my leadership and accomodation to all parties that got us through that (as well as a few other "crisis"). In addition, over the past roughly decade here... I can only think of one time I went against the lists wishes, and that was when a majority of the list wanted Sellam banned. I overruled the list on that. Other than that one example, I have always built consensus. So you'll hopefully pardon me if I get a little non-plussed when someone approaches me with a "who died and made you god" attitude for one of the very rare times I get pushed to the point of finally putting my foot down in the best interests of the list. > I've been on quite a lot of other lists during the same years, > and most died - in my understanding due to much restrictions and > atemts to rule. I have been operating under the concept that I own the list for what, almost 10 years now. So are you telling me that just now I'm attempting to rule and place restrictions? Nothing has changed other than your perception. And my "rule" has gone on for years now and the list has done well despite some serious issues. In addition, I'm taking away one rule and replacing it with a different definition. So I've got a problem with your assertion that I'm placing all kinds of restrictions and "ruling". Your characterization doesn't hold water. > Just somewhere on the road the it changed from maintaining a > service to the community to an attitude to rule it and force > things instead of letting it flow. ... snip ... Hans, much of what you say of the past history of the list is completely correct and great concepts. But you have to realize that the small like-minded group of friends that started the list is not the same group as the 1500+ members now here. I do try to maintain that sense of community and libertarian ethos, but it's just not always 100% possible 100% of the time. As to ownership of the list... I believe you were around for all of this but apparently not. When I first started administering the list because it had actually been yanked off Bill's server and was down completely... in the normal course of events listmember issues came up every so often the first year. Things like so and so should be banned, the list has gone too far off-topic, yada yada yada. I would receive lots of private emails saying "please make a decision!". I would refuse, saying "hey, it's not my list. I'm just adminning it - I don't want to make the call - let the list decide". Many people replied "no, it is your list now, it belongs to you, step up to the plate and make the decision". I did, but felt uncomfortable with it. Then a few weeks or months later another issue would come up and I would not address it because I didn't want to be dictatorial (surely some here remember me using that word to convey the sentiment!) - I wanted the list membership to decide. Same thing would happen, I'd get a flood of email - some on the list - some privately - specifically saying "Jay, you own the list now, do whatever you want and make the decisions". This cycle repeated quite a few times for subsequent issues. Finally, it was patently obvious to me that a majority of the list considered it my list as in ownership. I have thus been operating with that capacity for years now. And guess what... I still go to the list to build consensus for virtually everything. Often, but not always, it's hard to get real consensus on the list (believe it or not). Often, somethings really come down to a single quick decision being made. I'm not going to shy away from that. In the final analysis... your complaint seems to center around the apparent conviction that I will make excessive rules. I think that has been quite thoroughly proven over the past 10 years or so to be incorrect. As far as the list just totally "flowing freely", that will not work once you get past a small group of friends. The history of the list has more than proven that. Jay PS - I don't know for sure exactly how long I've been running the list. I am guessing just under 10 years. I may be off a few years. I'm not going to take the time to pick up the exact date. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 30 18:24:21 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:24:21 -0500 Subject: A tree to grow References: <44F5F4C3.25588.546E3A5E@localhost> Message-ID: <01b801c6cc8b$6dc05700$6700a8c0@BILLING> One further tidbit I meant to include in my long explanation.... Right now I'm trying to manage the recombination of the cctech and cctalk list. I've stated that is my plan countless times on the list (soliciting input) and had virtually zero objections. Because most people (well, no one) sees the admin emails I get from listmembers - I doubt anyone can really appreciate just what a difficult thing that will be given policies, politics, personalities, etc. etc. The absolute last thing in the world I needed... the absolute worst thing that could have happened to make that more difficult... is someone challenging my position to implement that. And without the two lists being recombined, I wouldn't be terribly hopeful for the future of the list and the website - or at least my willingness to continue to run it. Not for any childish reason, but because many of the future plans I have for classiccmp.org would be substantially more difficult with two lists, and the time required to maintain the two list approach has become completely untennable. It has to end, or people with infinitely more free time (and bandwidth) than me need to take over the list. Jay From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Aug 30 18:23:42 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:23:42 -0500 Subject: Board Found (OT) Message-ID: <5146ac28f5254dc48a131a9b64b8118c@valleyimplants.com> Don't know the board's exact function, but I can probably tell you what it goes to: the NCR 3360 Panther. It ran dual Pentiums (SMP) and had Micro Channel I/O. Came out in the Windows NT hype era, along with all those other boxes that were going to take the high end away from the PC. The NCR was pretty much PC, though, hence the OT. From alexeyt at freeshell.org Wed Aug 30 18:34:03 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:34:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <200608302309.k7UN9lCx093273@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608302309.k7UN9lCx093273@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Someones signiture (the "real programmers > get confused as Oct 31 = Dec 25") reminded > me about Octal. > > I have heard of it, and know it's still used > on the Calculator program on Windoze (2K), > on the computers at work, but unlike Hex, > Dec and Binary I have no idea what it could > be used for, and why it would still be used > today. Anyone care to fill in the gaps, please? To write down integers, perhaps? Hex is nice if your bits come in multiples of 4; octal is nice if your bits come in multiples of 3. People on this list claim to have computers with 12, 18, 24, 36, and 48 bit registers, IIRC. Alexey From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Aug 30 18:36:03 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:36:03 -0500 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <200608301341.53175.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608301341.53175.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44F620E3.3070606@mdrconsult.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 29 August 2006 08:42 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > >>A serious question : Was the Pentium ever used in a non-PC compatible? I >>know the 386 was -- there was a least one Sun that used it, and those >>interesting Sequent multi-processor 386 machines. Anything similar with >>the Pentium? If so, (and if they're more than 10 years old or whatever), >>I think I could easily consider those to be classic computers. > > > Interesting question. I know that the last time I was paying attention to > that area, embedded systems were starting to use 386 chips. And my Tek > scope has an 8088 in it... And I once found an Intergraph system at University of Texas' surplus barn that had 3 486DX chips on the graphics board. The property sticker was from Architectural Engineering, so I'd guess it was a CAD system. Sadly, that's all I know about it. UT wasn't selling any of their surplus computing gear at the time, and they frowned on my tendency to disassemble interesting stuff. Doc From spc at conman.org Wed Aug 30 16:18:03 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:18:03 -0400 Subject: Pentium for Non-PC (Was Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)) In-Reply-To: References: <44F605AA.18014.54B0429B@localhost> Message-ID: <20060830211803.GK129@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > But OK, I'll rephrase the question. Are there Pentium-based machines that > can't run the standard Windows we all know and hate, or a slightly > modified version of said software (and for reasons other than the trivial > ones of insufficient memory or disk space etc). That is, I am thinking of > machines with very different I/O devices, etc. I seem to recall a supercomputer made by Intel that used Pentiums. I forget the name though, but it was quite a behemoth of a machine from what little I recall (many CPUs). -spc (Bur for the life of me, I can't recall the name ... ) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 30 18:54:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:54:13 -0700 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: References: <200608302309.k7UN9lCx093273@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200608301654130112.0032FE47@10.0.0.252> >> I have heard of it, and know it's still used >> on the Calculator program on Windoze (2K), >> on the computers at work, but unlike Hex, >> Dec and Binary I have no idea what it could >> be used for, and why it would still be used >> today. Anyone care to fill in the gaps, please? It's very useful for counting whilst hanging by your thumbs. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Aug 30 18:54:28 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 19:54:28 -0400 Subject: Pentium for Non-PC (Was Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)) References: <44F605AA.18014.54B0429B@localhost> <20060830211803.GK129@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <014301c6cc8f$a164b840$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Conner" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 5:18 PM Subject: Re: Pentium for Non-PC (Was Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)) > It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > > But OK, I'll rephrase the question. Are there Pentium-based machines that > > can't run the standard Windows we all know and hate, or a slightly > > modified version of said software (and for reasons other than the trivial > > ones of insufficient memory or disk space etc). That is, I am thinking of > > machines with very different I/O devices, etc. > > I seem to recall a supercomputer made by Intel that used Pentiums. I > forget the name though, but it was quite a behemoth of a machine from what > little I recall (many CPUs). > > -spc (Bur for the life of me, I can't recall the name ... ) > > Pentium Pro's maybe? Always did like those. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 30 18:58:25 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:58:25 -0500 Subject: Pentium for Non-PC (Was Statement & apology (was Re: 10 YearRule)) References: <44F605AA.18014.54B0429B@localhost> <20060830211803.GK129@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <003701c6cc90$2efb0ec0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Sean wrote.... > I seem to recall a supercomputer made by Intel that used Pentiums. I > forget the name though, but it was quite a behemoth of a machine from what > little I recall (many CPUs). Wasn't that "The Connection Machine"? J From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Aug 30 19:03:11 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:03:11 -0700 Subject: DATIP from clr always? (obscure unibus & pdp-11 question) In-Reply-To: <200608302213.k7UMDVN2012106@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200608302213.k7UMDVN2012106@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <44F6273F.2050806@mindspring.com> Brad Parker wrote: > Don North wrote: >> On all the discrete logic 11s and LSI11 the CLR instr does a > ... > > thanks! >> So if your hardware can't tolerate a read access to a register, then you >> can do a MOV #0,ADR instead of CLR ADR (and make a note in your code why >> so some poor soul 30 years from now understands why you are doing a >> non-optimal MOV #0,xxx!) > > I fixed the hardware :-) I was just curious about which machines did > what. > > The problem was that the two transactions are back to back and the bus > master keeps overnership. I was waiting for BBSY to go away... > > -brad The 'original' use for DATIP-DATO (vs a sequence of DATI, DATO) was to let core memory know it did not have to do the read-restore cycle, since a DATO was coming right away to the exact same location and would overwrite with new data. The memory could then be a little bit faster. With MOS memory this is not necessary. Some later CPUs (11/74) iirc altered all the 'normal' memory accesses to be just DATI and DATO(B) cycles, and implemented the special sequence DATIP-DATOB for the ASRB instruction to act as the atomic memory interlock. But I digress... Don From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Aug 30 18:56:59 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 19:56:59 -0400 Subject: A tree to grow (Was: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)) Message-ID: <01C6CC6E.77834BC0@MSE_D03> --------Original message: Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:27:47 +0200 From: "Hans Franke" Subject: A tree to grow (Was: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)) what I found was a small group of rather unique and mature people. People that did have a real life, quite a difference to some tight bean counters often found. This rich vault of knowledge not only includes profound computer knowledge, but was eualy visible when the topics discussed went astray. ... And even the most firce discusion about weapons or cars came in a natural way all back sooner or later to our core topic. --------Reply: Well, as is usually the case, some of the people who later join a list are not always as serious or mature as the founders... So, if I understand you, you're saying that discussions about weapons, cars, etc. are OK on this list and will eventually die on their own, but we definitely need a "RULE" to make sure that none of this "vault of knowledge" is made available to someone with a computer manufactured after August 1996? You're not worried that allowing discussions of the relative merits of a Luger vs. a Glock will turn this list into a weapons forum, as some people are about new-ish computers? Hans, I respect you enormously, but this is just silly. And as far as Jay being some kind of autocratic czar, _obviously_ from time to time this list needs someone with some authority and control to step in and get things back on track (unfortunately). If we need a rule (for what they're worth) I think the only relevant one is that discussions here have something to do with *COMPUTERS*! Considering the disdain prevailing here for users of PCs and anything from Seattle, I'd think that anyone asking how to install XP Home on his Athlon will either be ignored or quickly taken off-list; what are you guys getting so exercised and anal about? mike -------------- "Doing it right is no excuse for not meeting the schedule." (Unknown) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 30 19:09:59 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:09:59 -0600 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <200608301654130112.0032FE47@10.0.0.252> References: <200608302309.k7UN9lCx093273@keith.ezwind.net> <200608301654130112.0032FE47@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44F628D7.1000606@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > It's very useful for counting whilst hanging by your thumbs. > Cheers, > Chuck I need my thumbs to grab bannanas, I hang by my toes. :) Did any of the classic computers display in octal 0-7 rather than 3 lights per digit? Also what was the display device? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 30 19:13:21 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:13:21 -0400 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <44F628D7.1000606@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200608302309.k7UN9lCx093273@keith.ezwind.net> <200608301654130112.0032FE47@10.0.0.252> <44F628D7.1000606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <2012816f24a7239a8c972c01a34079bc@neurotica.com> On Aug 30, 2006, at 8:09 PM, woodelf wrote: >> It's very useful for counting whilst hanging by your thumbs. >> Cheers, >> Chuck > I need my thumbs to grab bannanas, I hang by my toes. :) > Did any of the classic computers display in octal 0-7 > rather than 3 lights per digit? Also what was the display > device? The PDP-11/34 comes to mind. It uses six 7-segment LED displays controlled by an i8008 processor. Some PDP-8/a systems had numeric octal displays as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 30 19:15:18 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:15:18 -0700 Subject: Help reading DEC tape PDP-8/E OS-8 format Message-ID: I'm looking for help and advice on how to read two DEC tapes that were given to me recently. -- I can read them for you at the Computer History Museum in Mtn View. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 30 19:18:43 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A tree to grow In-Reply-To: <01ab01c6cc8a$1ff4ae00$6700a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Aug 30, 2006 06:15:03 PM Message-ID: <200608310018.k7V0Ihji016748@onyx.spiritone.com> > > There was no ruling beside two things - The 10 year rule > Originally, the ten year rule was "an arbitrary thing". It was not picked > with precision nor with real specific reason. With regards to the revocation > of same, I honestly don't know where you were when this was discussed at > GREAT length, MORE THAN ONCE on the list. Every time it was brought up - > after discussion on the list - I went with the idea that the 10 year rule > wasn't appropriate anymore. Most people on the list agreed. And when a few > people keep bringing up an issue that was already beat to death so badly the > horse was unrecognizable... sooner or later I'm going to say "enough". I > totally disagree with your characterization that I am being dictatorial or > setting up oppressive rules. And in all honestly, I think a majority of the > list wouldn't characterize my past (nor present) behaviour that way. I think > I've earned the benefit of the doubt that you seem to reserve. Do you see a common thread to the complaints here? No one seems to be saying that the "10 year rule" is perfect. What people are complaining about is a nebulous statement that the "10 year rule" is dead, and that this list is for discussing "Classic" computers. It is obvious to anyone what the "10 year rule" meant. I don't see where anyone is clear what "Classic" means. As for questioning where those of us who didn't see previous discussions on this, the example that was provided should make that obvious. It was a *SMALL* thread that was of no interest, and there was no clue in the subject line that this announcement took place. Some people may have the free time to read every post, but I'm guessing most of us don't. Yes, the "10 year rule" has been a source of many an arguement, but most are centered around a hatred for PC's. > Jay > PS - I don't know for sure exactly how long I've been running the list. I am > guessing just under 10 years. I may be off a few years. I'm not going to > take the time to pick up the exact date. The list was formed in '97, and you joined in late '99. I don't remember when you started hosting the list, but I think it was in late 2000, or sometime in 2001. Zane From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Aug 30 19:19:52 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 19:19:52 -0500 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: <44F5DFD0.1090504@gmail.com> References: <0J4T00BYB53QBQB8@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <44F5CC2A.5090700@rogerwilco.org> <44F5DFD0.1090504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44F62B28.6040504@mdrconsult.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > J Blaser wrote: > >> If the 3100 doesn't have VMS but Ultrix, I'll have to think about >> what's next. I don't know if Ultrix can support netboot capabilities >> ala BOOTP or RARP. > > > Not only can Ultrix mopboot a VAX, but NetBSD can too! I've even used > mopd on NetBSD/i386 to netboot a VAX. My MOPD server is an Athlon running Debian. The only system I have that won't boot from it is my DEC5000, which has a known bug (quirk?) in its firmware. Doc From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Aug 30 19:23:47 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:23:47 -0400 Subject: DATIP from clr always? (obscure unibus & pdp-11 question) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:03:11 PDT." <44F6273F.2050806@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <200608310023.k7V0NlZm002517@mwave.heeltoe.com> Don North wrote: > >Some later CPUs (11/74) iirc altered all the 'normal' memory accesses to >be just DATI and DATO(B) cycles, and implemented the special sequence >DATIP-DATOB for the ASRB instruction to act as the atomic memory >interlock. But I digress... actually that's *exactly* the sort of thing I was hoping someone would say... (so thanks!) not a digression at all. -brad From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Aug 30 19:23:24 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 19:23:24 -0500 Subject: Pentium for Non-PC Message-ID: Jay wrote: >Sean wrote.... >> I seem to recall a supercomputer made by Intel that used Pentiums. I >>forget the name though, but it was quite a behemoth of a machine from what >>little I recall (many CPUs). > >Wasn't that "The Connection Machine"? > >J Interesteing - did it have any relation design-or-heritage wise with the TMI Connection Machines? Or is this just another example of Intel taking whatever names they feel are cool without any regard for previous users (like "Extreme Graphics") From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 30 19:26:12 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A tree to grow In-Reply-To: <01b801c6cc8b$6dc05700$6700a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Aug 30, 2006 06:24:21 PM Message-ID: <200608310026.k7V0QClG016840@onyx.spiritone.com> > Right now I'm trying to manage the recombination of the cctech and cctalk > list. I've stated that is my plan countless times on the list (soliciting > input) and had virtually zero objections. Because most people (well, no one) > sees the admin emails I get from listmembers - I doubt anyone can really > appreciate just what a difficult thing that will be given policies, > politics, personalities, etc. etc. > > The absolute last thing in the world I needed... the absolute worst thing > that could have happened to make that more difficult... is someone > challenging my position to implement that. This current series of threads was the first I heard of this, however, you'll get nothing but understanding from me on this issue. I totally understand your reasoning on the issue of recombining the lists. Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 30 19:29:06 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:29:06 +1200 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <200608302309.k7UN9lCx093273@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608302309.k7UN9lCx093273@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 8/31/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > Hi, > > Someones signiture (the "real programmers > get confused as Oct 31 = Dec 25") reminded > me about Octal. > > I have heard of it, and know it's still used > on the Calculator program on Windoze (2K), > on the computers at work, but unlike Hex, > Dec and Binary I have no idea what it could > be used for, and why it would still be used > today. Anyone care to fill in the gaps, please? In some contexts, it can make some patterns more apparent than using decimal or hex. One example is the PDP-11 instruction set - if you look at the way the register selection and addressing modes are specified, it's much clearer when you view the instructions in octal rather than hex, even though it's a 16-bit machine. (cf - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-11 and http://www.village.org/pdp11/faq.pages/PDPinst.html ) In binary, many instructions are of the form "biiissssssdddddd", where 'b' is byte vs word, 'iii' is the operand (instruction type), 'ssssss' is the source operand, and 'dddddd' is the destination operand. In octal, it would be represented as 6 digits (000000- 177777) and you can think of the instructions more like 'BISSDD' where 'B' is still byte vs word, 'I' is a single octal digit for the operand, and 'SS' and 'DD' are the source and destination as two octal digits - one being the addressing mode type, the other the register to apply the addressing mode to. As you can see, it's not tough to look at, say, a MOV instruction and see what it does... 010304 copies the contents of R3 to R4. In hex, that would be 0x40C4 and not at all obvious what it's doing at first glance. There are other applications, such as using 7-segment displays where it might be easier to represent things in octal than hex or decimal. It's just another number base, but not as commonly used anymore as hex. -ethan | | | : | : | | | Op | Source | Dest | From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 30 19:32:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:32:11 -0700 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <44F628D7.1000606@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200608302309.k7UN9lCx093273@keith.ezwind.net> <200608301654130112.0032FE47@10.0.0.252> <44F628D7.1000606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200608301732110838.0055C38E@10.0.0.252> On 8/30/2006 at 6:09 PM woodelf wrote: >I need my thumbs to grab bannanas, I hang by my toes. :) >Did any of the classic computers display in octal 0-7 >rather than 3 lights per digit? Also what was the display >device? Is a Heath H8 classic? Before that, there were many. Nixie tube displays were popular on, say, the CDC 3300. Cheers, Chuck From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 19:32:45 2006 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:32:45 -0400 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <200608302309.k7UN9lCx093273@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Someones signiture (the "real programmers > get confused as Oct 31 = Dec 25") reminded > me about Octal. > > I have heard of it, and know it's still used > on the Calculator program on Windoze (2K), > on the computers at work, but unlike Hex, > Dec and Binary I have no idea what it could > be used for, and why it would still be used > today. Anyone care to fill in the gaps, please? Back in the day... (Nah, I won't go there) When you get right to it, a number base is a number base. To me, one is a good as another. In college, I remember that a fair number of people (CS majors) were of the opinion that it was easier to remember to carry sooner and have your numbers contain digits only (octal) rather than carry later and have alpha characters in your numbers (hex). Also, I think that some machines may have had address and/or data widths that were divisible by three and not four (36 bits maybe?). -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/432 - Release Date: 8/29/2006 From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Aug 30 19:37:30 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:37:30 -0700 Subject: Octal Message-ID: woodelf wrote: Chuck Guzis wrote: > It's very useful for counting whilst hanging by your thumbs. > Cheers, > Chuck I need my thumbs to grab bannanas, I hang by my toes. :) Did any of the classic computers display in octal 0-7 rather than 3 lights per digit? Also what was the display device? --------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, virtually all the Control Data systems displayed octal. The devices were varied, from projection displays (1604) to CRT vector drawn (6600). Some, such as the 8090 and 8092 had optional front panels to display either binary or octal. Octal use continued at CDC up through the 1700 machine, which was hex. Seymour finally went to hex on the Cray series. Here's a question for the list - how many still have and use the TI calculator that could be used in octal or hex? Billy From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 30 19:41:51 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060830173918.C29106@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > Early 3.5" disks had a manual shutter, you had to slide it open before > > Was there an earlier type with no shutter at all? YES I have some Shugart 3.5" diskettes that have no shutter. Shutters were NOT removed from them, they never had them, nor provision for shutters. I don't know to what extent those ever made it into mass production. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Aug 30 19:39:03 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:39:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <200608302309.k7UN9lCx093273@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608302309.k7UN9lCx093273@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200608310041.UAA02930@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I have heard of [octal], and [...], but unlike Hex, Dec and Binary I > have no idea what it could be used for, and why it would still be > used today. Just as hex is appropriate whenever you have bits naturally occurring in groups of four, octal is appropriate whenever you ahve bits naturally occurring in groups of three. Examples that come to mind immediately include PDP-11 (and to a lesser extent 8080) machine languages, any machine whose word size is a multiple of three bits (eg, 12- or 36-bit machines), and Unix file permission bitmasks. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 30 19:46:12 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: from "Billy Pettit" at Aug 30, 2006 05:37:30 PM Message-ID: <200608310046.k7V0kCWE017342@onyx.spiritone.com> > Here's a question for the list - how many still have and use the TI > calculator that could be used in octal or hex? It's sitting on a shelf by my PDP-11 :^) I used to have one (Casio I think) that was solar powered and had an LCD rather than the LED display of the TI. I think I still have the non-solar powered one that replaced it, but it needs a new battery. Zane From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Aug 30 19:46:15 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 19:46:15 -0500 Subject: A tree to grow (Was: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)) In-Reply-To: <44F5F4C3.25588.546E3A5E@localhost> References: <44F5F4C3.25588.546E3A5E@localhost> Message-ID: <44F63157.4080405@mdrconsult.com> Hans Franke wrote: > Haveing taken a day of, I stil lthink I should set some things in > perspective. > In my humble understanding, the list has never become or been > your property. If there is any 'owner' who might rule on his > own ground, so it is the people. I've been sort of laying low on this, but I think I need to clarify my *own* perspective. I have definite opinions on all of this, and I'm not often shy about sharing them.[1] But in my never-humble opinion, the cat who pays the freight gets to choose the destination. So, Hans, do I understand that your essay is a roundabout way of offering to host and maintain this mailing list? Or are you just carping cause the free beer isn't chilled to your taste? Doc [1] For what it's worth, this list has grown and diversified a LOT even since I subscribed. The management policies of 6-8 years ago are no longer sufficient. This increased need for "direction" is a normal function of any growing group. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Aug 30 19:48:27 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:48:27 -0400 Subject: A tree to grow References: <200608310018.k7V0Ihji016748@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <015a01c6cc97$2c28d7c0$0b01a8c0@game> Why not just merge the 2 lists into one. People can post a message which most likely gets checked for spam or filtered for swearing (I would think a group with a billion years of computer knowledge could automate this part). Some human being with a sense of humor can decide if the topic is remotely on topic and let it pass, or fail it (send a note back to the sender with a reason why it is off topic) Once the thread gets going there should be a simple email address where people who have issues with the thread can forward it and the moderators can decide if it is Off Topic and change the header to reflect it (so people can just filter out completely) and hope it dies out on its own, or if enough people complain it gets killed then and there (subsequent replies to the OT post get a return message stating the thread is dead, reply directly to the poster, have a nice day). People who have to many off topic threads get put on probation (everything they send gets reviewed). Unless I am mistaken this is pretty much the way the list has been run, the majority of users decide what is offtopic by their bitching, and the guy paying the bandwidth has the final say. So lets grow up (as in a tree to be on topic for an off topic thread) and get back to whatever we have been doing before I got bored reading these emails. It just seems we are talking about the fine details that can never be 100% defined without making a 600 page book that gets edited every few years. All we realy need to iron out is what the offtopic thread designation looks like to set our filters (if needed). From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 30 19:58:53 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:58:53 -0700 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608301758530562.006E3449@10.0.0.252> On 8/30/2006 at 5:37 PM Billy Pettit wrote: >Here's a question for the list - how many still have and use the TI >calculator that could be used in octal or hex? Which one? The desktop SR-22 or the "Programmer"? I used a company-owned SR-22, but owned a Programmer. It drank batteries and the keyboard was wonky. I ditched it and got an HP11C as soon as they came out (and still have it). Quaility will tell in the end. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 30 20:07:26 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: new list In-Reply-To: <200608301351050875.010F12FA@10.0.0.252> References: <200608301302.55725.rtellason@verizon.net> <00a001c6cc71$05d95de0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <200608301351050875.010F12FA@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060830180343.J29106@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Are you using just 365 day years or are you including 366 day (leap) years? > Or are you simply defining a year as 365.25 days? 365.24219 (approximately) We recently had the 25th anniversary of the IBM 5150 PC, the machine that heralded the end of the classic era. Yes, there were some classics produced after the introduction of the PC, it signified the end, not immediately cutting it off. From bob099 at centurytel.net Wed Aug 30 20:16:08 2006 From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Choctaw Bob) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:16:08 -0500 Subject: Question about Z80 ISA bus board Message-ID: <44F63858.4030303@centurytel.net> Hope to generate less heat this time. Full length ISA card, XT card edge connection, DB 37 male connector, Z80B, 8 4164's, 2 2764's, 2 Mostek MK4801AN-4's, MC1420B, 10 MHZ crystal, and a handful of 74LSxxx glue chips. Only identification lettering is "BETRONIX = SWEDEN=PC84" Anyone have an ideal what it could be? Betronix made circuit board layout software. From ken at seefried.com Wed Aug 30 20:19:00 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 21:19:00 -0400 Subject: Pentium for Non-PC (Was Statement & apology (was Re: 10 year whine fest) In-Reply-To: <200608310014.k7V0EKeX077368@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608310014.k7V0EKeX077368@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20060831011900.24923.qmail@seefried.com> From: "Jay West" Sean wrote.... > > I seem to recall a supercomputer made by Intel that used Pentiums. I > > forget the name though, but it was quite a behemoth of a machine from what > > little I recall (many CPUs). >Wasn't that "The Connection Machine"? Nope. Connection Machines were made by Thinking Machines, Inc., and they don't use Pentiums. They use gobs (up to something like 16k) of proprietary processors. The ASCI Red supercomputer built by Intel used PPros; see http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/aries/course/notes/ascii_red.pdf. I think the compute nodes were pretty off-the-shelf SMP PPro designs, so some might consider it off-topic. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 30 20:22:14 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:22:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <200608310046.k7V0kCWE017342@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608310046.k7V0kCWE017342@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20060830181854.V29106@shell.lmi.net> > Here's a question for the list - how many still have and use the TI > calculator that could be used in octal or hex? TI Programmer first model had an LED display, and went through batteries rather quickly. There is an enormous range of what life people would get from the batteries in it, ranging from hours to weeks. TI Programmer Second model had an LCD display, and the batteries outlasted the keyboard (NOT a clean room situation) Casio CFX40 and CFX400 wrist watch scientific calculator that had decimal, hex, and octal modes. They are starting to become hard to find. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Aug 30 20:38:52 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:38:52 -0500 Subject: Role of OS in filesystem (was "File types") In-Reply-To: <44F5D3A2.1010909@dakotacom.net> References: <000601c6cba1$374aa5d0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <44F49F07.2060105@dakotacom.net> <44F4A854.2090304@gmail.com> <44F4E8B0.7090600@brutman.com> <44F50F95.8090506@dakotacom.net> <44F51570.3030502@brutman.com> <44F5D3A2.1010909@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44F63DAC.2030706@brutman.com> Don wrote: > The meta data is stored *in* the object? So, it can't tell > what type of object it has without *open()*-ing it? > > OS/400 isn't an OS, it's a way of life. :-) The classic 'objects' that the operating system uses aren't really in a filesystem. It looks vaguely like a file system (a very flat one), but it isn't. An object can be examined by paging in the header area and examining the type bytes embedded at a particular offset. I don't want to clutter the list .. to read further search for 'single level store' and AS/400 and that will give you the idea. Mike From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Aug 30 20:41:52 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 21:41:52 -0400 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:46:12 PDT." <200608310046.k7V0kCWE017342@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200608310141.k7V1fq48005867@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> Here's a question for the list - how many still have and use the TI >> calculator that could be used in octal or hex? hp16c? I use it hourly - in all 3 modes - hex, octal & binary. can't live with out it. best device I ever owned, next to my 4 channel ti scope :-) i also have an hp11c which I use for floating point... if the 16c ever dies i'll be lost. and looking on ebay :-) -brad From daviderhart at oldzonian.com Wed Aug 30 20:44:41 2006 From: daviderhart at oldzonian.com (David W. Erhart) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:44:41 -0700 Subject: Help reading DEC tape PDP-8/E OS-8 format In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004501c6cc9f$09931ba0$6501a8c0@caladan> That's great. I'll contact you off list to schedule some time. Thanks, david. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 5:15 PM > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Help reading DEC tape PDP-8/E OS-8 format > > > I'm looking for help and advice on how to read two DEC tapes > that were given to me recently. > > -- > > I can read them for you at the Computer History Museum in Mtn View. > > > From reevejd at mchsi.com Wed Aug 30 20:47:46 2006 From: reevejd at mchsi.com (John D. Reeve) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:47:46 -0500 Subject: Need microprocessor trainer, oscilloscope advice? References: Message-ID: <009c01c6cc9f$7fb2abc0$75f2ce0c@gatewaynotebook> Hi Tony and Joe. Thanks for the advice! I found an expensive example ($450 and up) of the HP trainer on ebay, then found something similar made by a company called EMAC (it even has the same 8085 processor). Not as expensive, especially if you solder it yourself. I need the practice anyway. Thanks again, John R. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 4:46 PM Subject: Re: Need microprocessor trainer, oscilloscope advice? >> >> I couldn't agree more with Tony's recommendations. However if you can >> find one for a reasonable price the Heathkit and HP 5036 trainers are >> great. I praticularly like the HP if you can get all the manuals for it > > I will admit to never having used either, but I've heard plenty of > recomendations from them. > > My point was that you don't _need_ such a trainer. If you've got one, by > all means use it. > >> since they also teach you how to use logic probes, logic analyzers, etc. >> Be >> carefull buying older Tektronix scopes, the capacitors and switches go >> bad >> in them with age and if they're not used regularly. > > It's like many older things. They will need a bit (a lot?) of TLC to get > them back to rights. > > But personally, I'd rather get an old Tektronix and spend a month > restoring it, knowing I've then got an instrument I can believe, than use > certain modern-ish 'scopes that never seem to give a believable trace. > Notice I said 'certain', there are pletny of (expensive) modern 'scopes > that I would trust. > > -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 30 20:49:45 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:49:45 -0500 Subject: A tree to grow References: <200608310018.k7V0Ihji016748@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <009c01c6cc9f$bcea0ec0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Zane wrote.... > As for questioning where those of us who didn't see previous discussions > on > this, the example that was provided should make that obvious. It was a > *SMALL* thread that was of no interest, and there was no clue in the > subject > line that this announcement took place. A "small thread of no interest" that was titled "The Definition of On-Topic"??? You might want to re-read that statement a few times so that the complete (something)ness of it sinks in to you. And that wasn't the only thread where it was brought up. I guess from now on when I solicit list input I shouldn't just make a clear concise subject like "The Definition of On-Topic", I should instead send out personal invitations to remind folks to participate. You know, anytime there is an "issue" on the list, people are awfully quick to suggest solutions which require more time from me - instead of them taking care of themselves and being more responsible. Well, if you don't vote, don't complain. To put it more succinctly - Failure on your part to read a thread with such an important subject does not translate into an obligation on my part to retroactively care. > Some people may have the free time to read every post, but I'm guessing > most of us don't. Why not, you and others obviously expect ME to read every post. Ya know what, I just don't need the grief. J From spc at conman.org Wed Aug 30 18:32:18 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 19:32:18 -0400 Subject: Pentium for Non-PC (Was Statement & apology (was Re: 10 YearRule)) In-Reply-To: <003701c6cc90$2efb0ec0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <44F605AA.18014.54B0429B@localhost> <20060830211803.GK129@linus.groomlake.area51> <003701c6cc90$2efb0ec0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <20060830233218.GL129@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Jay West once stated: > Sean wrote.... > > I seem to recall a supercomputer made by Intel that used Pentiums. I > >forget the name though, but it was quite a behemoth of a machine from what > >little I recall (many CPUs). > > Wasn't that "The Connection Machine"? Nope. Made by Thinking Machine Inc out of Boston. The first model used a custom 1-bit CPU for each node (of which there were 65,536). Later models used SPARCs for each node. It's a pretty cool machine and operations that are O(n**2) on normal computers are O(nlog n) on this machine. -spc (Even from a software perspective it's pretty cool) From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Wed Aug 30 21:10:22 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:10:22 -0600 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: <44F62B28.6040504@mdrconsult.com> References: <0J4T00BYB53QBQB8@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <44F5CC2A.5090700@rogerwilco.org> <44F5DFD0.1090504@gmail.com> <44F62B28.6040504@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <44F6450E.9070708@rogerwilco.org> Doc Shipley wrote: > (snip) > My MOPD server is an Athlon running Debian. The only system I have > that won't boot from it is my DEC5000, which has a known bug (quirk?) > in its firmware. > Well, I do have some familiarity with Debian, with a couple of boxes around here currently running it, so that sounds like an option... But let me offer just a quick update to everyone that was kind enough to respond to my dilemma: Since I already have an image of the VAXstation 3100-m38's SCSI (RZ23) drive, I figured I'd take the big leap, power it up, and see what happens, hoping for VMS so that I could borrow a page from Allison, and do some remote booting of VMS systems. Turn out (after I learned a wee little bit about the Console System --- boy this is going to be a steep learning curve!) that the hard drive is setup with Ultrix 4.1, *but* in the end it won't fully boot. It gets partially through the boot sequence (how far I don't know with zero experience with Ultrix) and then hangs. Here's the output I see: ++++begin++++ >>>BOOT DKA300 Ultrixboot - V4.1 Tue Aug 28 09:23:58 EDT 1990 Loading (a)vmunix ... Sizes: text = 630736 data = 100864 bss = 484856 Starting at 0x2b31 ULTRIX V4.1 (Rev. 40) System #1: Wed Jul 24 09:22:22 MDT 1991 real mem = 8269824 avail mem = 5427200 using 201 buffers containing 826368 bytes of memory KA420 processor with an FPU sdc0 at uba0 csr 0x200c0000 vec 0x1fc, ipl 0x14 rx2 at sdc0 slave 2 scsi0 at uba0 csr 0x200c0000 vec 0x1fc, ipl 0x14 rz3 at scsi0 slave 3 (RZ23) sg0 at uba0 csr 0x3c000000 vec 0x44, ipl 0x14 ss0 at uba0 csr 0x200a0000 vec 0xc0, ipl 0x14 ln0 at ibus0 csr 0x200e0000 vec 0x50, ipl 0x14 ln0: DEC LANCE Ethernet interface, hardware address: 08:00:2b:0e:44:22 Wed Nov 6 15:20:35 MST 1996 Automatic reboot in progress... /dev/rz3a: 565 files, 8562 used, 6761 free (209 frags, 819 blocks, 1.4% fragmen) /dev/rrz3g: 3112 files, 41965 used, 7314 free (1234 frags, 760 blocks, 2.5% fra) check quotas: done. savecore: checking for dump...dump does not exist routed RPC port mapper: portmap. NFS daemons: biod mounting NFS directories:nfs_mount: mod:/mode/users server not responding: port nfs_mount: backgrounding /mode/users nfs_mount: wave:/export/wave server not responding: port mapper failure - rpc tt nfs_mount: backgrounding /wave done. local daemons: syslog sendmail ntpd . preserving editor files clearing /tmp standard daemons: update cron accounting network snmpd printer. start errlog daemon - elcsd Wed Nov 6 :27 MST 1996 /usr/lib/lpd: slate: cannot chdir to /usr/spool/printers/slate /usr/lib/lpd: hobbes: cannot chdir to /usr/spool/priners/hobbes +++end+++ At this point the system just hangs right there. I never get any kind of login prompt or any other messages. Looks like it's really wanting some NFS volumes that no longer are available. I can enter ^C on the keyboard and get back to the console, and even CONTINUE but nothing else happens. I think the hardware is good, though, after getting this far. I think at this point that I'll replace the RZ23 with a scratch 1GB drive that I have hanging around, and try to get NetBSD installed. I'm hoping that from that point I'll be able to netboot the other uVAXen from this system, and then use dd to get the drive images before trying to boot them. Maybe, back to Doc's comment, I can remote boot NetBSD from a Debian box, and get the NetBSD installed that way. More reading/research to do tonight! Thanks to all, and all further suggestions are welcome. Jared From spc at conman.org Wed Aug 30 18:45:08 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 19:45:08 -0400 Subject: Pentium for Non-PC (Was Statement & apology (was Re: 10 year whine fest) In-Reply-To: <20060831011900.24923.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200608310014.k7V0EKeX077368@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20060831011900.24923.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <20060830234508.GM129@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Ken Seefried once stated: > From: "Jay West" > Sean wrote.... > >> I seem to recall a supercomputer made by Intel that used Pentiums. I > >> forget the name though, but it was quite a behemoth of a machine from > >what > >> little I recall (many CPUs). > > >Wasn't that "The Connection Machine"? Nope. I did a search and it was the Intel Paragon I was thinking of, which actually used i860s and not Pentiums. Ah well ... > The ASCI Red supercomputer built by Intel used PPros; see > http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/aries/course/notes/ascii_red.pdf. I think > the compute nodes were pretty off-the-shelf SMP PPro designs, so some might > consider it off-topic. Ah, so the PPro *was* used in a super computer. -spc (Now I don't feel so bad ... ) From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 30 21:16:00 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 21:16:00 -0500 Subject: A tree to grow References: <200608310026.k7V0QClG016840@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <00a101c6cca3$672a7890$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Zane wrote.... > however, you'll get nothing but understanding from me on this issue. I > totally > understand your reasoning on the issue of recombining the lists. I don't mind explaining myself and I don't mind going to the list at my discretion (which is almost 100% of the time) before making a decision. But I'll be damned if I'm going to be nit-picked ad-nauseum after things have been discussed. You know what I think is telling.... the few people complaining about the demise of the 10 year rule are people who said it was news to them - meaning they never saw the definition I gave back in 2005. What this tells me, is these few people are bitching when they don't even know the details of what I was trying to replace it with. That type of complaint really doesn't deserve the little time I have to respond. Now that my hand is being destroyed by listmembers with too much time on their hands, some explanation: My HOPE was to gradually make moderation and enforcement of on-topic posts here on cctalk more and more noticeable in preparation to migrate the cctech people here who have "more stringent concepts of on-topic". I was sure this would help mitigate the obvious differences between those two lists when they were rejoined in order to avoid the issues that lead to the split in the first place. In fact, thanks to this whole thread, the differences have now been more exacerbated. Much appreciated. Thanks! (sarcasm in print) You think YOU have to deal with angst when they join here and complain about off-topicness? You have NO clue. Get in my shoes. But then again, it's easy when the primary person who get the complaints is me. I do not wish to be terse, nor do I wish to be unhelpful or antagonistic - but I personally will not continue with this topic on-list. I think most people would say I'm not excitable and not quick to judgement (or anger). But I have reached a point where I don't feel my participation in this thread will be helpful. After a short break on this topic I will surely regain my composure. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 30 21:19:15 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 19:19:15 -0700 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <200608310141.k7V1fq48005867@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200608310141.k7V1fq48005867@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200608301919150565.00B7C83C@10.0.0.252> On 8/30/2006 at 9:41 PM Brad Parker wrote: >hp16c? I use it hourly - in all 3 modes - hex, octal & binary. can't live >with out it. best device I ever owned, next to my 4 channel ti scope :-) I don't think I could afford to buy my 16C again, based on eBay prices. Heck, I saw the manual going for $50 not that long ago... Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 30 21:21:53 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 21:21:53 -0500 Subject: A tree to grow References: <200608310018.k7V0Ihji016748@onyx.spiritone.com> <015a01c6cc97$2c28d7c0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <00c401c6cca4$3a9f7770$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Teo wrote... > Why not just merge the 2 lists into one. *blink* I'm just speechless. Completely speechless. > Some human being with a sense of humor can decide if the topic is remotely > on topic and let it pass, or fail it ...snip... > Once the thread gets going there should be a simple email address where > people who have issues with the thread can forward it and the moderators > can > decide ...snip... > People who have to many off topic threads get put on probation (everything > they send gets reviewed). Once again I'm being asked to spend a LOT of time babysitting people who SHOULD be capable of policing themselves. GROW UP. J From kelly at catcorner.org Wed Aug 30 21:34:08 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:34:08 -0400 Subject: C64 Packet carts Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036161@MEOW.catcorner.org> > Actually, one reason I've never got into packet radio is a lack of > information one the internals of the TNC. I've not found an > 'open' one -- > as in published schematics and ROM source listings. try www.tapr.org TNC1 comes with rom listings and schematics. Maybe it is missing something... From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 30 21:50:54 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:50:54 -0400 Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <200608301317420584.00F081F0@10.0.0.252> References: <3.0.6.16.20060828162500.109f9a2c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20060828202619.E96581@shell.lmi.net> <200608301202.49893.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608301024440400.0052265B@10.0.0.252> <20060830111301.A2832@shell.lmi.net> <200608301317420584.00F081F0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44F64E8E.20205@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/30/2006 at 11:19 AM Fred Cisin wrote: > >> It's too bad that the 3" didn't carry the field. > > What's too bad is that the 3.5" diskettes don't completely seal dust away. > The hub area still represents a way for contaminants (and spilled coffee) > to migrate into the works. But then, given the quality of the blank media > produced over the last 5 years, it probably doesn't matter anyway. > > We've still got a a couple of customers with things like CNC equipment and > embroidery machines who are interested in maintaining some sort of floppy > support for their oddball formats under Vista. My inclination is to say > that floppy drives on PCs are going the way of the buggy whip fast--and > that it might be better to sell a floppy emulator to be fit to the original > machine that uses some sort of solid-state removeable memory. > > If you were betting on the next 10-15 years, what medium that holds about a > MB or so would you choose? A giant pile of plastic-laminated paper? Peace... Sridhar From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Aug 30 22:34:10 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:34:10 -0400 Subject: Octal Message-ID: <01C6CC8C.F10BADC0@MSE_D03> -----------Original Message Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:37:30 -0700 From: "Billy Pettit" Subject: Octal Here's a question for the list - how many still have and use the TI calculator that could be used in octal or hex? Billy ----------Reply: By coincidence, I just happen to have my TI Programmer in front of me, in the process of replacing its NiCds. I used to use my Casio fx-451 (the solar powered one) a fair bit (easier than the TI to read & doesn't need an AC adapter), but lately I've found the Windows Calculator to be the most convenient (nicer keyboard & display and doesn't take any desk space). mike From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 30 22:39:40 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:39:40 +1200 Subject: Mercury cells (was e: Sharp PC-1211) Message-ID: On 8/31/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 29 August 2006 09:02 pm, Josef Chessor wrote: > > mercury cells. Today, since they're illegal in the US from what I > > understand, > > Are they? Anybody know for sure? I know they were hard to find last time I > looked (over a decade ago) but there were some out there... In 1995, I was unable to buy mercury cells for my Konica 35mm SLR. I _was_ able to find a set at a store in Christchurch, NZ. Dunno if they are still legal there or not. -ethan From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 22:41:16 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:41:16 -0400 Subject: Pentium for Non-PC (Was Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule )) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608302341.16235.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 30 August 2006 06:01 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > Now, the question is how to define 'Non-PC compatible'. After all, > > the PC itself isn't that hard defined. If you look on what machines > > I would argue the PC _was_ defined by the IBM Techref. > > > DOS was running, including highly complex applications like Word, > > Autocad or even Windows, you'll find that the common denominator > > often just the use of a x86 CPU is. > > There's a lot more to a machine than the CPU. > > Go back to the time of the IBM PC. There were several other 8088 boxes > around that were not compatible. Sure they might have run MS-DOS or CP/M > 86. But you couldn't take a bootable disk from one machine and boot it on > another. In many cases applications programs from one machine wouldn't > run on another, I remember one computer place I was somewhat loosely associated with around the tail end of 1984, or maybe early 1985, and they would get in these Sanyo 555 (?) machines, because they were cheap. They'd swap out the single-sided drives that the machine came with for some sort of double-sided drives, and then leave it sitting there in their showroom running Flight Simulator, which was the acid test in those days. And the salesman would never mention that you had to get a version that was specific to that machine, and that the standard version wouldn't run on it. There were others, like the Xeros (I don't know what model) that a family member had, for another example. > I seem to rememebr at least 3 levels of compatibiliy : > > OS compatible -- the MS-DOS calls were the same, any program that used > those and those alone would run on both machines > > BIOS compatible -- the BIOS calls were the same. You could use those (and > MS-DOS calls) and have no compatibility problems > > Hardware compatible. The memory map was much the same, I/O devices had > the same registers at the same port addresses, the video system was the > same, and so on. You could 'hit the bare metal' with no compatability > problems. > > It is the last level that we normally consider when we talk about 'PC > compatible' I think, Yes. I use "clone" to describe those. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 30 22:45:23 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 21:45:23 -0600 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <01C6CC8C.F10BADC0@MSE_D03> References: <01C6CC8C.F10BADC0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <44F65B53.3000108@jetnet.ab.ca> M H Stein wrote: > I've found the Windows Calculator to be the most convenient > (nicer keyboard & display and doesn't take any desk space). > mike I find computer calculator programs a pain. In fact it is hard to find a good calculator - read nice display -- good keyboard. You don't find that with the $5 calculator market. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Aug 30 22:45:07 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thinking Machines CM-1 was Re: Pentium for Non-PC was 10 year rule blah blah blah In-Reply-To: <20060830233218.GL129@linus.groomlake.area51> from Sean Conner at "Aug 30, 6 07:32:18 pm" Message-ID: <200608310345.k7V3j7CQ013134@floodgap.com> > Nope. Made by Thinking Machine Inc out of Boston. The first model used > a custom 1-bit CPU for each node (of which there were 65,536). Awesome. Is there any documentation on the instruction set? This sounds like something ripe for further study. A cursory Google search turned up many laudatory references, but no specs. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Make welfare as hard to get as building permits. --------------------------- From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Aug 30 22:39:31 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:39:31 -0500 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060830223732.0bdbc318@localhost> At 05:37 PM 8/30/2006 -0700, you wrote: >Here's a question for the list - how many still have and use the TI >calculator that could be used in octal or hex? I had a Ti-programmer LED for years. Finally, it gave up the ghost. Then I had a TI-Programmer LCD. It died and TI exchanged it for a new one. That's still around here somewhere. The battery connections are crusty and I can't always persuade it to power up. >Billy SED /S-E-D/ n. [TMRC, from `Light-Emitting Diode'] Smoke-emitting diode. A friode that lost the war. See also LER --jargon.net --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Aug 30 22:42:29 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:42:29 -0500 Subject: Help reading DEC tape PDP-8/E OS-8 format In-Reply-To: <003f01c6cc87$b0362eb0$6501a8c0@caladan> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060830224136.0b81d158@localhost> At 03:57 PM 8/30/2006 -0700, you wrote: >I'm looking for help and advice on how to read two DEC tapes that were given >to me recently. I would like to save the data from the tapes on a CD-ROM >and hopefully view the files on a WinXP system. I'm in the San Jose, >California area. I don't have any DEC systems and know very little about >DEC tapes. I'm assuming that the label is correct: "PDP-8/E OS-8 format", >but I may be wrong. > >Here are a few pictures of the tapes in case it helps. >http://www.sageandstride.org/DEC_tapes_001.jpg >http://www.sageandstride.org/DEC_tapes_002.jpg >http://www.sageandstride.org/DEC_tapes_003.jpg Looks just like mine. I can't read mine either. It's probably got my college PDP/8e TSS/8 BASIC programs on it. >Any advice or help is appreciated. > >Thanks, >david. [Computing] A language that doesn't have everything is actually easier to program in than some that do. --Dennis M. Ritchie --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Aug 30 22:35:34 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:35:34 -0500 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <200608302309.k7UN9lCx093273@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060830223417.0c6b7ba8@localhost> At 06:09 PM 8/30/2006 -0500, you wrote: >I have heard of it, and know it's still used >on the Calculator program on Windoze (2K), > on the computers at work, but unlike Hex, >Dec and Binary I have no idea what it could >be used for, and why it would still be used >today. Anyone care to fill in the gaps, please? I used Octal all the time when programming PDP/8e's in college. It's a 12-bit word machine, and things just kinda fit in Octal numbers. [Humor] I make my own water --two glasses of H, one glass of O. -- Steven Wright --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Wed Aug 30 22:46:08 2006 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:46:08 -0700 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) Message-ID: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> I recently got a book titled High-Speed Computing Devices 1st ED. 1950. This is a design survey of how to build an electronic digital computer and has schematics of gates, adders and accumulators done in vacuum tubes. At the time there were around 10 working computer in the U.S. I have been adding to my magazine scans. I found a decade counter circuit implemented with four 12AU7 tubes (dual triodes) in the October 1955 Radio & Television News. (50 year rule.) http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/ElectronicsWorld/Oct1955/RTVN_Oct1955.htm It is almost the same circuit Don Lancaster implemented with RTL ICs in the February 1968 issue of Popular Electronics. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Feb1968/PE_Feb1968.htm Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 22:46:37 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:46:37 -0400 Subject: board found In-Reply-To: <200608301521330506.0161E3D1@10.0.0.252> References: <200608301714.21476.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608301521330506.0161E3D1@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608302346.37745.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 30 August 2006 06:21 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/30/2006 at 5:14 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >It's _not_ ISA, PCI, or any of those formats. Says on the top "Panther > >EDAC Memory Board". There's also what appears to be an NCR copyright on > > it,1993. > > Roy, according to my literature collection for that period, the NCR 3360 > was known as "Panther". I believe it ran dual Pentium 60/75 or some such. > EDAC of course, is "Error Detection and Correction". So it sounds like > what you've got is a memory board for an NCR 3360 Panther server. > > Does this make sense to you? Yup. I had an NCR box here that got let go some time back to a list member (who I went to CC that post to but the email address I had bounced). I couldn't tell you at this point what the model was, but it was apparently a dual P90, perhaps upgraded from a dual P60 that was in it earler on? Anyhow, I have this board here and no particular use for it... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 22:50:33 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:50:33 -0400 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: References: <200608302309.k7UN9lCx093273@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200608302350.33647.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 30 August 2006 07:34 pm, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > Someones signiture (the "real programmers > > get confused as Oct 31 = Dec 25") reminded > > me about Octal. > > > > I have heard of it, and know it's still used > > on the Calculator program on Windoze (2K), > > on the computers at work, but unlike Hex, > > Dec and Binary I have no idea what it could > > be used for, and why it would still be used > > today. Anyone care to fill in the gaps, please? > > To write down integers, perhaps? Hex is nice if your bits come in > multiples of 4; octal is nice if your bits come in multiples of 3. People > on this list claim to have computers with 12, 18, 24, 36, and 48 bit > registers, IIRC. And in addition to which I would guess that it's always been easier to get devices (including both display devices and decoder chips and whatnot) that will display all octal digits than will display hex characters... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 30 22:58:08 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:58:08 +1200 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) In-Reply-To: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> References: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: On 8/31/06, Michael Holley wrote: > I recently got a book titled High-Speed Computing Devices 1st ED. 1950... > > I have been adding to my magazine scans. I found a decade counter circuit > implemented with four 12AU7 tubes (dual triodes) in the October 1955 Radio & > Television News. (50 year rule.) > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/ElectronicsWorld/Oct1955/RTVN_Oct1955.htm Cool! I happen to have a dozen 12AU7s here in my desk - they were discarded from the stock shelves when they cleared out "Skylab", the former home for a wad of experiments dealing with aeronomy and auroral observation - Carl Sassenrath of REBOL fame worked there once, many years ago). Hmm... a decade counter with 4 tubes... with a dozen tubes, I'm half-way to a digital clock - just add nixies! Thanks for the pointer! -ethan From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 22:57:58 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:57:58 -0400 Subject: Pentium for Non-PC (Was Statement & apology (was Re: 10 year whine fest) In-Reply-To: <20060831011900.24923.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200608310014.k7V0EKeX077368@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20060831011900.24923.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <200608302357.58136.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 30 August 2006 09:19 pm, Ken Seefried wrote: > From: "Jay West" > Sean wrote.... > > > > I seem to recall a supercomputer made by Intel that used Pentiums. I > > > forget the name though, but it was quite a behemoth of a machine from > > > what little I recall (many CPUs). > > > >Wasn't that "The Connection Machine"? > > Nope. Connection Machines were made by Thinking Machines, Inc., and they > don't use Pentiums. They use gobs (up to something like 16k) of > proprietary processors. I'm vaguely remembering something about what chip that was, but now I can't remember what it was called. Ah, would that have been the "transputer", maybe? I also recall an article in Byte, way back when. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 30 23:14:14 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:14:14 +1200 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <44F65B53.3000108@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <01C6CC8C.F10BADC0@MSE_D03> <44F65B53.3000108@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 8/31/06, woodelf wrote: > M H Stein wrote: > > > I've found the Windows Calculator to be the most convenient > > (nicer keyboard & display and doesn't take any desk space). > > mike I prefer 'dc', the calculator program that comes with UNIX - it does different radix inputs and outputs, and uses RPN, plus, I _always_ have a UNIX shell handy (and almost never have a real calculator or a Windows box in front of me). > I find computer calculator programs a pain. > In fact it is hard to find a good calculator - read > nice display -- good keyboard. You don't find that > with the $5 calculator market. I miss my old Sharp 4-banger with the flourescent digits. I have the parts in a bag, but it needs some serious plastic reconstruction - I think the plasticizer was all baked out - the case is seriously brittle. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 30 23:23:32 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 21:23:32 -0700 Subject: A tree to grow In-Reply-To: <009c01c6cc9f$bcea0ec0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200608310018.k7V0Ihji016748@onyx.spiritone.com> <009c01c6cc9f$bcea0ec0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: At 8:49 PM -0500 8/30/06, Jay West wrote: >Zane wrote.... >>As for questioning where those of us who didn't see previous discussions on >>this, the example that was provided should make that obvious. It was a >>*SMALL* thread that was of no interest, and there was no clue in the subject >>line that this announcement took place. > >A "small thread of no interest" that was titled "The Definition of >On-Topic"??? You might want to re-read that statement a few times so >that the complete (something)ness of it sinks in to you. Oh, good grief! The part that you cut clearly shows I'm talking about the "Ten Year Rule". From your email the other day. The revocation date was 2005/05/08: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2005-May/194004.html If you look at that message, the subject line is "ScottFree interpreter for Pocket PC", though in looking I take back the part about it being a small thread (I'd thought it was only about 5 messages for some reason). Still there is *nothing* there to indicate the revocation of the "Ten Year Rule", unless you were actually reading the thread, and there was nothing in that subject to make me interested. I've included your definition of "On Topic" from January 2005 below for those without web access (I don't know if Tony can access the Web). I've read through it several times in the past three days, and I still think it's vague. About the only thing I can see for sure is that you're saying that Windows in any form isn't "Classic". Other than that I'm not sure if everything else is pretty much on topic, or if Unix is off topic (at which point a whole lot is off topic). I'm not trying to start a fight or anything with that last sentence, I'm being serious. In reading the definition below, I can't figure out if "Windows" is the only _current school of thought_ or not. Reading the thread that followed what I've posted below, it would appear that not everyone was clear at that time. CLASSICCMP used to have a FAQ which included stuff such as pretty much everything that has been in this whole mess of threads and arguments. I for one think it's WAY past time to update Section 2. http://www.classiccmp.org/oldfaq.txt >>Some people may have the free time to read every post, but I'm >>guessing most of us don't. >Why not, you and others obviously expect ME to read every post. Have I *EVER* said that I expect you to? Has anyone said that? If they have, and there is no polite way to put this, they're fools. >Ya know what, I just don't need the grief. Believe it or not, I'm not trying to argue or pick a fight, I'm simply trying to understand this new definition of "Classic Computer". Zane "The definition of On Topic", Jan 2005 http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2005-January/057970.html There's way too many problems with defining something as classic based on it's age. Some things (songs, cars, etc.) become virtually classic the day they are invented. I would put forth the following dictionary definition of the word: 'Classic: forming a tradition or linked to one, often in opposition to more recent schools or theories'. Since (like it or not), modern operating systems and processors/hardware are "recent schools or theories", they are by definition not classic. The older software and hardware are generally "in opposition to" these more recent schools of thought. There's many examples - one would be how we used to spend hours looking to save an instruction cycle or two bytes of code as contrasted to the "memory and processor cycles are cheap" paradigm that is current thought generally. In addition, the very uniqueness of each of the old machines as opposed to the current "everything is windows-based" and all pretty similar. So there's the distinction of many varied systems, some better in some areas while the rest are innovative or better in the remaining areas. These are in direct opposition to the "sameness" of current platforms. A third example is how many of us at least try to understand the complete system, down to the chips on the board. The recent school of thought is you just have to know how to use word & excel. There's quite a few more examples which I'm sure you all are cognizant of. And because of the fact that we are all here talking about these systems, well, that speaks for the tradition we're linked to. Windows can't be considered "classic" because it IS the recent school of thought/theory. When it hasn't been the prevailing school of thought for a while, AND it is in opposition of the then current school of thought - it may well become classic and perfect for discussing here. This is not likely to happen in our lifetimes. A major strike against that ever happening is that it was (is) SO pervasive so I'm not sure it ever be "classic". But in the final analysis, this argument is one that will be decided by our children & grandchildren, not us. This is exactly why I'm not opposed to DOS being discussed on the list. It comes from the days of the traditions I speak of above, before 90% of the cpu and memory was dedicated to a pretty gui. Regards, Jay West -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spc at conman.org Wed Aug 30 20:55:20 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 21:55:20 -0400 Subject: Thinking Machines CM-1 was Re: Pentium for Non-PC was 10 year rule blah blah blah In-Reply-To: <200608310345.k7V3j7CQ013134@floodgap.com> References: <20060830233218.GL129@linus.groomlake.area51> <200608310345.k7V3j7CQ013134@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20060831015520.GN129@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Cameron Kaiser once stated: > > Nope. Made by Thinking Machine Inc out of Boston. The first model used > > a custom 1-bit CPU for each node (of which there were 65,536). > > Awesome. Is there any documentation on the instruction set? This sounds like > something ripe for further study. _The Connection Machine_ by W. Daniel Hillis contains quite a bit of infomration on the machine: The host talks to the processor/memory cells through a microcontroller. The purpose of the microcontroller is to act as a bandwidth amplifier between the host and the processors. Because the processors execute an extremely simple bit-at-a-time instruction set, they are able to execute instructions at a higher rate than the host is able to specify. Instead, the host specifies higher-level _macroinstructions_, which are interpreted by the microcontroller to produce _nanoinstructions._ It is the nanoinstructions that are executed directly by the processors. The instructions executed by the microcontroller that specify how this interpretation is to take place are called _microinstructions._ Thus there are four instruction sets to be kept straight: host-instructions (executed by the host), macroinstructions (interpreted by the microcontroller), microinstructions (executed by the microcontroller), and nanoinstructions (executed by the individual processor memory cells) ... Only the nanoinstruction set is described in this document. He gives an example though, of the macroinstruction: ADD 2000,1000, 8 ; add the eight bits stored in ; locations 2000-2007 to the eight ; bits stored in locations ; 1000-1007. generates the following sequence of nanoinstructions A-addr B-addr Readflag Writeflag MEM-ALU [1] Flag-ALU CC-flag Condition-sense ---- ----- -------- ------- --------- ------- ------ ---------------- 2000 1000 ZF [2] 1 A x B x F AB+BC+AC ZF 0 2001 1001 1 1 A x B x F AB+BC+AC ZF 0 2002 1002 1 1 A x B x F AB+BC+AC ZF 0 2003 1003 1 1 A x B x F AB+BC+AC ZF 0 2004 1004 1 1 A x B x F AB+BC+AC ZF 0 2005 1005 1 1 A x B x F AB+BC+AC ZF 0 2006 1006 1 1 A x B x F AB+BC+AC ZF 0 2007 1007 1 1 A x B x F AB+BC+AC ZF 0 [1] this is A xor B xor F [2] ZF = Zero Flag Each bit in the source and destination is addressed in sequene, starting with the least significant bit. These two bits are added together with the flag bit taken from flag 1, where it was stored on the previous cycle. On the first cycle there is no incoming flag, so it is taken from the zero flag, which is always 0. The zero flag is also used for conditionalization, which a COND-sense of 0, because this operation is to be performed by all the processing elements. The function for the memory is the exclusive-or function of the three inputs ... The flag is the majority function of the three inputs and is 1 whenever two or more of the inputs are 1. This sequence of nanoinstructions can be generated by the microcontroller by means of a simple macrocoded loop that increments the address of the memory locations. The machine as a whole is SIMD, and the programming examples in the book are in a form of LISP. He give the following path length algorithm: 1. Label all vertices with +inf 2. Label vertex A with 0. 3. Label every vectex, except A, with 1 plus the minimum of its neightbor's labels. Repeat this step until the label of vertex B is finite (This step takes one cycle, and the loop itself takes N cycles, where N is the path length between A and B). 4. Terminate. The label of B is the answer. And the code: ; find the path length between nodes A and B in graph G (DEFUN PATH-LENGTH (A B G) a(SETF (LABEL *G) +INF) (SETF (LABEL A) 0) (LOOP UNTIL (< (LABEL B) +INF) DO a(SETF (LABEL *(REMOVE A G)) (1+ (bMIN a(LABEL *(NEIGHBORS *G)))))) (LABEL B)) The "a" represents the "alpha" expansion, and "b" represents "beta reduction" (which can be loosely translated as MAP and REDUCE respectively). Hillis describes "a" as "Give me a zillion of these". The "*" represents an escape mechanism where by the alpha expansion is avoided if you already have a zillion of something. Some examples: a(+ *x 1) == (a+ x a1) a(+ (* *x 2) 1) == (a+ (a* x a2) a1) A = [A B C] X = [X Y Z] (CONS A X) => ([A B C ] . [X Y Z]) a(CONS *A *X) => [(A . X) (B . Y) (C . Z)] a(CONS A *X) => [([A B C] . X) ([A B C] . Y) ([A B C] . Z)] (b+ '{A->1 B->2 C->3}) => 6 (bAND '[T T NIL T]) => NIL (bMAX {1 3 5 7}) => 7 -spc(I do recomend the book---it's very informative) From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Aug 30 23:39:14 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 21:39:14 -0700 Subject: Thinking Machines CM-1 In-Reply-To: <200608310345.k7V3j7CQ013134@floodgap.com> References: <200608310345.k7V3j7CQ013134@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 8:45 PM -0700 8/30/06, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Nope. Made by Thinking Machine Inc out of Boston. The first model used >> a custom 1-bit CPU for each node (of which there were 65,536). > >Awesome. Is there any documentation on the instruction set? This sounds like >something ripe for further study. > >A cursory Google search turned up many laudatory references, but no specs. I'd love to find some documentation on their hardware. Somewhere I should have at least one article on the CM-1, I've always found them seriously interesting! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 30 23:47:45 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 00:47:45 -0400 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) In-Reply-To: References: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <200608310047.45645.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 30 August 2006 11:58 pm, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 8/31/06, Michael Holley wrote: > > I recently got a book titled High-Speed Computing Devices 1st ED. 1950... > > > > I have been adding to my magazine scans. I found a decade counter circuit > > implemented with four 12AU7 tubes (dual triodes) in the October 1955 > > Radio & Television News. (50 year rule.) > > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/ElectronicsWorld/Oct1955/RTVN_Oct1955.htm > > Cool! I happen to have a dozen 12AU7s here in my desk - they were > discarded from the stock shelves when they cleared out "Skylab", the former > home for a wad of experiments dealing with aeronomy and auroral observation > - Carl Sassenrath of REBOL fame worked there once, many years ago). > > Hmm... a decade counter with 4 tubes... with a dozen tubes, I'm > half-way to a digital clock - just add nixies! :-) Anybody having any vacuum tubes they don't want, I might be interested. I can't offer much of anything for them, but if they're gonna get tossed... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Aug 31 00:12:02 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:12:02 -0700 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: References: <200608291703.k7TH3OsS037876@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <44F66FA2.3080700@dakotacom.net> Mark Tapley wrote: > At 12:03 -0500 8/29/06, Don wrote: >> IMO, this was a mistake. It forces the OS to know too much >> about the applications that run on it -- instead of being a >> resource manager. I.e. it should implement mechanisms, not >> policy. > > There is at least one reason this may not be a mistake in all > contexts. If the OS knows something about the files, and about the > applications available, it can help me out by connecting the two (or by > notifying me that the needed application is not available). That allows > me to double-click on a .jpeg file and have a jpeg viewer launched > automatically by the OS to open that file. > The alternative is of course for me to find my own jpeg viewer, > launch it, and then open the same file. The advantages here are that > I'll get the *right* jpeg viewer, the OS can be much simpler, and the > file can be smaller and named with greater flexibility. Sure, but that can be done in the "desktop" (I don't consider the desktop software to be a necessary part of the *OS*) and managed *by* the desktop in any number of ways. It seems that embedding the type in the filename is just a naive way of doing it :-/ Unfortunately, something that will probably be around indefinitely (until MS *invents* the Mac way of doing things... etc.) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 31 00:13:22 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:13:22 -0600 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) In-Reply-To: <200608310047.45645.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> <200608310047.45645.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44F66FF2.7040605@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Anybody having any vacuum tubes they don't want, I might be interested. I > can't offer much of anything for them, but if they're gonna get tossed... The ads list a 12au7 for about 65 cents in 1955. In 2006 a generic 12au7 is about $8.00. I suspect a better deal now than 50 years ago. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 31 00:13:31 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:13:31 -0600 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) In-Reply-To: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> References: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <44F66FFB.9000004@jetnet.ab.ca> Michael Holley wrote: > have been adding to my magazine scans. I found a decade counter > circuit implemented with four 12AU7 tubes (dual triodes) in the October > 1955 Radio & Television News. (50 year rule.) > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/ElectronicsWorld/Oct1955/RTVN_Oct1955.htm >. Grumble Grumble Grumble $#!@ jpgs ... How do you read um page 64 and 66 ??? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 31 00:17:22 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:17:22 -0700 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <44F65B53.3000108@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <01C6CC8C.F10BADC0@MSE_D03> <44F65B53.3000108@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200608302217220434.015AD835@10.0.0.252> On 8/30/2006 at 9:45 PM woodelf wrote: >I find computer calculator programs a pain. Depends on the calculator. I use this one all of the time and would love to have it in a nice little handheld: http://www.bias.at/Download/english/calcdle.htm But it does the job right now. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 00:55:47 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:55:47 +1200 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) In-Reply-To: <44F66FF2.7040605@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> <200608310047.45645.rtellason@verizon.net> <44F66FF2.7040605@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 8/31/06, woodelf wrote: > The ads list a 12au7 for about 65 cents in 1955. In 2006 a generic 12au7 > is about $8.00. I suspect a better deal now than 50 years ago. Hmm... if I leave off seconds and just go with minutes/hours, I think I have enough. Even with modern wages, a bag full of tubes costs enough to make me want to simplify the design. The real trick, now, I guess, is how to take 60Hz mains and clock it down to 1/60Hz with 1955 technology. -ethan From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Aug 31 01:07:19 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:07:19 +0200 Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) References: <3.0.6.16.20060828162500.109f9a2c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><20060828202619.E96581@shell.lmi.net><200608301202.49893.rtellason@verizon.net><200608301024440400.0052265B@10.0.0.252> <20060830111301.A2832@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <001c01c6ccc3$b7e64b90$2101a8c0@finans> > > Certainly, the envelope on the 3.25" Dysan floppy > > would be easily lost--and the floppies would get contaminated with lint if > > you tried to keep them in a shirt or coat pocket. > > . . . and bent, mangled, etc. > I remember a case where one of my customers received a very special 8" floppy. We could see that the box it came in, had been mangled by a car tire. There were strange marks on the carton box, indicating that it had been bent in the process. When the disk out, the soft floppy envelope had been damaged, so what to do next ? We took a working 8" floppy, carefully carefully the disk from the envelope, put the disk from the damaged envelope into the good envelope, and read the disk. My customer was so hysterical about throwing things out, that I regularly had to come and take a disk out of the drive, as it had come out of the envelope :-) Nico From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Aug 30 17:01:04 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:01:04 +0100 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44F60AA0.9070407@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > A serious question : Was the Pentium ever used in a non-PC compatible? I > know the 386 was -- there was a least one Sun that used it, and those > interesting Sequent multi-processor 386 machines. Anything similar with > the Pentium? If so, (and if they're more than 10 years old or whatever), > I think I could easily consider those to be classic computers. I wonder what's in the newest Akai samplers? I know that the older ones used 80186 and 80286 CPUs. I suspect that newer ones might use some kind of "embedded" x86. Gordon. From bqt at softjar.se Wed Aug 30 17:15:48 2006 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 00:15:48 +0200 Subject: DATIP from clr always? (obscure unibus & pdp-11 question) In-Reply-To: <200608302146.k7ULjUSK065168@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608302146.k7ULjUSK065168@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <44F60E14.8060504@softjar.se> "Henk Gooijen" skrev: >> From: Brad Parker >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >> Posts" >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Subject: DATIP from clr always? (obscure unibus & pdp-11 question) >> Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:35:57 -0400 >> >> An obscure unibus & pdp-11 question: >> >> Does "clr" always do a DATIP (i.e. read-modify-write) on all 11's? >> >> It does on my 11/44. Something tells me I've seen threads (long ago) on >> this and the perils of using clr as opposed to "mov #0," when talking to >> hardware. >> >> The rl01 bootstrap does it talking to rl11 registers, which tripped me >> up for a bit. >> >> -brad > > The only difference between CLR and MOV #0 that I think of immediately > is that CLR clears the Carry flag too, whereas MOV #0 does not affect the > Carry flag. That is needed to do multi-word ADD or SUB. What does that have to do with anything? The question was about what Unibus transactions are performed given a CLR. I'm not at all close to any Unibus documentation right now, nor any processor docs. so I can't really answer the question. However, if I were to guess the answer would be no. I can't see that a CLR always would be implemented using a DATIP. It is probably very much up to each CPU implementation to perform whatever transactions that cause the end result to look the same. I'm actually surprised that a CLR would result in a read-modify-write cycle on the Unibus though. Are you sure it wasn't a CLRB? Johnny From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Aug 30 17:47:00 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:47:00 +0100 Subject: new list In-Reply-To: <200608301351050875.010F12FA@10.0.0.252> References: <200608301302.55725.rtellason@verizon.net> <00a001c6cc71$05d95de0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <200608301351050875.010F12FA@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44F61564.5060702@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Roy wrote.... >> I started a yahoo group for folks to discuss the 10-year-rule and the > similar stuff >> that's been bogging things down in here lately. You can join it at: >> >> 10-year-rule-subscribe at yahoogroups.com >> >> Feel free, and have fun. > > Are you using just 365 day years or are you including 366 day (leap) years? > Or are you simply defining a year as 365.25 days? > What about equipment such as the AGC and other such space-borne computing machinery? Out there, you just don't have years... Gordon. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 30 20:06:35 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 21:06:35 -0400 Subject: Octal Message-ID: <0J4U00B9G88TBQ1C@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Octal > From: woodelf > Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:09:59 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> It's very useful for counting whilst hanging by your thumbs. >> Cheers, >> Chuck >I need my thumbs to grab bannanas, I hang by my toes. :) >Did any of the classic computers display in octal 0-7 >rather than 3 lights per digit? Also what was the display >device? Heath H8 and the Godbout front pannel. Display was 7segment LED. I'm sure some of the SBCs also used similar displays (in octal). Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 30 20:10:34 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 21:10:34 -0400 Subject: Octal Message-ID: <0J4U00A4E8FG2D78@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Octal > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 17:46:12 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Here's a question for the list - how many still have and use the TI >> calculator that could be used in octal or hex? > >It's sitting on a shelf by my PDP-11 :^) I used to have one (Casio I think) >that was solar powered and had an LCD rather than the LED display of the TI. >I think I still have the non-solar powered one that replaced it, but it >needs a new battery. > > Zane Ti Programmer, still have it. Sharp EL508 and EL512 the latter I got as part of my"toolkit" at DEC in '83. The Pair are both battery powered, the difference is the 506 is a scientific calc and the 512 adds programability to the same capability. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Aug 30 20:59:39 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 21:59:39 -0400 Subject: Octal Message-ID: <0J4U00BZ9AP8BQ8C@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Octal > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 18:22:14 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> Here's a question for the list - how many still have and use the TI >> calculator that could be used in octal or hex? > >TI Programmer first model had an LED display, and went through batteries >rather quickly. There is an enormous range of what life people would get >from the batteries in it, ranging from hours to weeks. the led model also had a rotten keyboard. The batteres in mine gave good service but the keyboard was useless after a year. FYI: I have a clock radio (GE) that used a TI chip in the PLL and their rotten keyboard (same failure mode). >TI Programmer Second model had an LCD display, and the batteries >outlasted the keyboard (NOT a clean room situation) > >Casio CFX40 and CFX400 wrist watch scientific calculator that had >decimal, hex, and octal modes. They are starting to become hard to find. Cute but it was hard to use. Allison From vax at purdue.edu Wed Aug 30 22:00:51 2006 From: vax at purdue.edu (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 23:00:51 -0400 Subject: C64 Packet carts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608302300.52036.vax@purdue.edu> On Wednesday 30 August 2006 16:54, Tony Duell wrote: > I've never seen a US amateur radio license, but the UK one says that the > license is for 'self training in wireless telegraphy'. Now, I will > happily agree there's a lot more to wireless telegraphy than making > transmitters and receivers, but I am a little curious as to what 'self > training' you get by buying a transciever, buying a TNC, plugging them > together (and presumably use the standard 'rubber duck' aerial of the > portable transceiver). Oh, and running pre-written software to talk to > the TNC. I'm pretty sure that the US one doesn't say anything like that. Also, in the US, we're a bit farther along than using ham radio only for sending morse code... > There's nothing wrong with buying equipment, but IMHO you really should > be thinking about doing some experimentation, modifications, and so on. > > Actually, one reason I've never got into packet radio is a lack of > information one the internals of the TNC. I've not found an 'open' one -- > as in published schematics and ROM source listings. Well, there's a software-based packet radio module in the Linux kernel. There's some details about it in the AX25-HOWTO: http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/text/AX25-HOWTO Perhaps you could use that to figure it out. ;) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac From mike at ambientdesign.com Wed Aug 30 22:56:17 2006 From: mike at ambientdesign.com (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:56:17 +1200 Subject: Mercury cells (was e: Sharp PC-1211) References: Message-ID: <013001c6ccb1$69832d40$3c00a8c0@fluke> > > > mercury cells. Today, since they're illegal in the US from what I > > > understand, > > Are they? Anybody know for sure? I know they were hard to find last time I > > looked (over a decade ago) but there were some out there... > In 1995, I was unable to buy mercury cells for my Konica 35mm SLR. I _was_ > able to find a set at a store in Christchurch, NZ. Dunno if they are > still legal there or not. Yes, according to Camera & Camera (big local camera store in Auckland) they're still legal and available here (NZ). m. From vax at purdue.edu Thu Aug 31 00:58:25 2006 From: vax at purdue.edu (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 01:58:25 -0400 Subject: Recommendations for operating system In-Reply-To: <005301c6cbd6$918f8620$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <005301c6cbd6$918f8620$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200608310158.25090.vax@purdue.edu> On Tuesday 29 August 2006 21:49, Jay West wrote: > I had written.... > > >> There *IS* no 10-year rule. I'm really getting tired of saying that. > >> It's > > To which Tony replied... > > > This is the first I've heard of that! > > That's just silly. Please scan the archives. And to which I add: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2005-May/193977.html Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac From jvdg at sparcpark.net Thu Aug 31 04:49:10 2006 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:49:10 +0200 Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8/28/06 10:53 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > Some Korg MIDI equipment used a 2.8" QuickDisk: > > http://www.keyboardmuseum.org/ar/k/korg/s/sqd1.html > > Some Akai samplers also used the QuickDisk. Apparently, these was also > referred to as 3" diskettes, according to Wikipedia. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk#Mitsumi.27s_.22Quick_Disk.22_3-inch_f > loppies QuickDisk drives were also available for MSX computers. The 3" diskettes used in some Schneider/Amstrad CPC machines weren't QuickDisks but proper diskettes, though, were they? ,xtG .tsooJ -- Dog: They feed me, pet me, groom me, love me - they must be gods! Cat: They feed me, pet me, groom me, love me - I must be a god! -- Joost van de Griek From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 31 05:34:44 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:34:44 +0200 Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: <44F620E3.3070606@mdrconsult.com> References: <200608301341.53175.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <44F6D764.23212.57E38002@localhost> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 29 August 2006 08:42 pm, Tony Duell wrote: >>A serious question : Was the Pentium ever used in a non-PC compatible? I >>know the 386 was -- there was a least one Sun that used it, and those >>interesting Sequent multi-processor 386 machines. Anything similar with >>the Pentium? If so, (and if they're more than 10 years old or whatever), >>I think I could easily consider those to be classic computers. > Interesting question. I know that the last time I was paying attention to > that area, embedded systems were starting to use 386 chips. And my Tek > scope has an 8088 in it... After all, it doesn't doesn't realy matter what CPU is used, as long as it does it's job as a black box controll system. But yeah, Pentiums (and alikes) are already the base for most new embedded developments. In fact, the classic 186 core that has been ruling the landscape for a long time gets as rare as Z80-based cores. Beside Intels Marketing Mumbo, there's no real difference between Pentium alike, 486 or 386 cores - especialy since manufaturing cost for all of those, now 'low' desity structures have levelt. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 31 05:34:44 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:34:44 +0200 Subject: Connection Machine (Was: Pentium for Non-PC ) In-Reply-To: <003701c6cc90$2efb0ec0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <44F6D764.1097.57E3811B@localhost> Am 30 Aug 2006 18:58 meinte Jay West: > Sean wrote.... > > I seem to recall a supercomputer made by Intel that used Pentiums. I > > forget the name though, but it was quite a behemoth of a machine from what > > little I recall (many CPUs). > Wasn't that "The Connection Machine"? Nop, for one it was way before the Pentium, second it wasn't realy big at all. The First one was based on a custom CPUs - often you'll find a reference that this have been 6502s, but that's not true. Most of the computation was done by the 65k of 1 Bit CPUs, but they where not realy independent. In fact, it's hard to call tem CPUs at all, since they where barely more than a specialized ALU wit a function input, two one bit data and a flag input and a flag and a one bit data output. But hey, for a marketing purpose 65536 CPUs sounds way better than just 4k :) While each had it's own memory (4kx1?), always 16 where feed by a microcontroller with the same instructions. Form a more traditional viewpoint such a combination should be called a single CPU, since it still could only execute one instruction at a time, but on up 16 data elements simultanious. It was a bit like an inversion of the 6600 conzept - instead of having 16 PPs shareing one CPU, it had one CPU with 16 ALUs The sixteen single bit ALUs where manufactured into one chip. Only the up to 4096 of microcontrollers where direct addessable in a 12 dimensional hypercube. The original design was ment to run AI programms done in LISP, thus FP wasn't realy important. The CM-2 did fix that problem by changing the structure to one controller operating 2x16 ALUs and having a Weitek FPU, so the microcontroller (called Sprint?) was now feeding 32 binary ALUs and one FPU - resulting in the quite common mis- interpretation that each 32 CPUs did share one Weitek and so the FPU was still a bottleneck. Also the memory changed (IIRC) from ALU-seperate to a shared memory for all ALUs. After the CM-2 came the CM-5 which moved away from the high performance specific design toward standard SPARC (later SuperSPARC) with a fat tree, like todays Infiniband. So, no, no Pentiums inside - the only Intel in here is the fact, that Weitek was founded an run by former Intel people. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 31 05:37:45 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:37:45 +0200 Subject: Thinking Machines CM-1 was Re: Pentium for Non-PC was 10 year rule blah blah blah In-Reply-To: <20060831015520.GN129@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <200608310345.k7V3j7CQ013134@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <44F6D819.2433.57E64387@localhost> Am 30 Aug 2006 21:55 meinte Sean Conner: > It was thus said that the Great Cameron Kaiser once stated: > > > Nope. Made by Thinking Machine Inc out of Boston. The first model used > > > a custom 1-bit CPU for each node (of which there were 65,536). > > Awesome. Is there any documentation on the instruction set? This sounds like > > something ripe for further study. > _The Connection Machine_ by W. Daniel Hillis contains quite a bit of > infomration on the machine: > The host [...] > -spc(I do recomend the book---it's very informative) Oh, cool, it seams as if you got an electronic version? Any pointers to that available? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Aug 31 01:51:32 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 07:51:32 +0100 Subject: "File types" In-Reply-To: <44F5D289.7010005@dakotacom.net> References: <200608282230.k7SMUn9X015954@floodgap.com> <014401c6caf4$d53acf70$0b01a8c0@game> <44F3775D.60304@dakotacom.net> <200608281618580669.1011EC22@10.0.0.252> <44F38095.706@dakotacom.net> <200608290649.CAA09130@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44F45B40.50907@dakotacom.net> <20060829164233.GG129@linus.groomlake.area51> <44F49563.6090009@dakotacom.net> <200608291328070505.149BDDF9@10.0.0.252> <44F4A7C3.8060808@dakotacom.net> <44F4A97D.5080608@gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20060830102021.05a1aea8@mail> <44F5D289.7010005@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <44F686F4.4080000@gjcp.net> Don wrote: > Yes, and a Macedonian (?) married female's last name is a > diminutive form of her husband's last name. And married > females in western societies *tend* to use "Mrs". > > [the whole "person name" issue was an illustration that we > don't REGULARLY tag people with names that identify their > characteristics/"types"; do red-haired people get named > differently than black-haired? do tall people get different > names than short people?] Where I come from people tend to have not so much a nickname as, well I don't know what you'd call it, but their name is tagged with something to do with where they're from or their physical appearance. Thus you might have Black Donnie (who is a coalman), Donnie Bogbrush (who has a distinctive hairstyle) and Donnie Staffin (who comes from a particular place). This falls down, of course, if something changes about that person - for instance Wee Alec who was indeed small but is now about 6'3" and built along the same lines as his father's (Big Alec, 5'8" and seven stone soaking wet) Charolais bulls. These aren't necessarily real people, but just an example. Gordon. From bqt at softjar.se Thu Aug 31 01:53:41 2006 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:53:41 +0200 Subject: DATIP from clr always? (obscure unibus & pdp-11 question) In-Reply-To: <200608310014.k7V0EKec077368@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200608310014.k7V0EKec077368@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <44F68775.7040708@softjar.se> Don North skrev: > >Brad Parker wrote: >> > Don North wrote: >>> >> On all the discrete logic 11s and LSI11 the CLR instr does a >> > ... >> > >> > thanks! >>> >> So if your hardware can't tolerate a read access to a register, then you >>> >> can do a MOV #0,ADR instead of CLR ADR (and make a note in your code why >>> >> so some poor soul 30 years from now understands why you are doing a >>> >> non-optimal MOV #0,xxx!) >> > >> > I fixed the hardware :-) I was just curious about which machines did >> > what. >> > >> > The problem was that the two transactions are back to back and the bus >> > master keeps overnership. I was waiting for BBSY to go away... >> > >> > -brad > >The 'original' use for DATIP-DATO (vs a sequence of DATI, DATO) was to >let core memory know it did not have to do the read-restore cycle, since >a DATO was coming right away to the exact same location and would >overwrite with new data. The memory could then be a little bit faster. >With MOS memory this is not necessary. > >Some later CPUs (11/74) iirc altered all the 'normal' memory accesses to >be just DATI and DATO(B) cycles, and implemented the special sequence >DATIP-DATOB for the ASRB instruction to act as the atomic memory >interlock. But I digress... > >Don I don't remember for sure here, but can't you have other times where several transactions come back to back without the bus being released? I really should look into the documentation, unfortunately it's not where I am right now. As for the 11/74, it didn't modify the interpretation of the Unibus transactions, since the memory isn't on the Unibus. :) The 11/7x memory bus do have a transaction that keeps the location locked until a write have occurred however. Not used in the 11/70, but the 11/74 uses that. (Obviously.) It's documented in the memory subsystem manual for the 11/70. The only instruction using that bus transaction is the ASRB howewer. Not sure if the 11/84 might have redefined the Unibus somewhat. I remember that there is some note about possible problems with some Unibus devices in an 11/84, but I think it has to do with timing during a bus reset. Wish my memory was more accurate. :) Johnny From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 31 06:25:04 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 07:25:04 -0400 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) Message-ID: <0J4V00BGY0X46C70@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:55:47 +1200 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 8/31/06, woodelf wrote: >> The ads list a 12au7 for about 65 cents in 1955. In 2006 a generic 12au7 >> is about $8.00. I suspect a better deal now than 50 years ago. > >Hmm... if I leave off seconds and just go with minutes/hours, I think >I have enough. Even with modern wages, a bag full of tubes costs >enough to make me want to simplify the design. Hunt a bit I've found Vacuum tubes NOS (New Old Stock) to be widely available. The prices vary widely. To do time.. 12:59 should give you a hint. You need 3 counters only one is decade. the tens of minutes is 0..5 (/6) and hours is either /12 or /24. >The real trick, now, I guess, is how to take 60Hz mains and clock it >down to 1/60Hz with 1955 technology. You need a decade counter and a /6 counter for that, same general circuit just no disply. For simpler you can use several retriggerable monostable with time out being just longer than say 10 cycles and a second with time out of >6 cycles. At most three tubes to do that (12au7/12ax7/12at7). Back when Grumman plant-33 closed (LM project) I picked up a Beckman EPUT (events per unit time) and it was basically 5 digits of that style counter (counted to 5mhz, 8 on a good day) a time base and input circuits (Schmidt trigger). All tubes! Allison From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 31 06:40:35 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:40:35 +0200 Subject: PC-Compatibility (Was: Pentium for Non-PC) In-Reply-To: References: <44F605AA.18014.54B0429B@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Aug 30, 6 09:39:54 pm Message-ID: <44F6E6D3.1821.581FC7F4@localhost> Am 30 Aug 2006 23:01 meinte Tony Duell: > > Now, the question is how to define 'Non-PC compatible'. After all, > > the PC itself isn't that hard defined. If you look on what machines > I would argue the PC _was_ defined by the IBM Techref. Now, that would be the 5150. In that context, already the 5170 AT is no longer compatible. And no Pentium system I can think of ever will be. > > DOS was running, including highly complex applications like Word, > > Autocad or even Windows, you'll find that the common denominator > > often just the use of a x86 CPU is. > There's a lot more to a machine than the CPU. Jup, but this more has changed several times. Stuff got added and removed - or different reimplemented. > Go back to the time of the IBM PC. There were several other 8088 boxes > around that were not compatible. Sure they might have run MS-DOS or CP/M > 86. But you couldn't take a bootable disk from one machine and boot it on > another. In many cases applications programs from one machine wouldn't > run on another, Which already was a problem for the AT vs. PC. Not every bootdisk made for the PC could run on an AT - except when willingly (or by not needing) left out functions that differed. > I seem to rememebr at least 3 levels of compatibiliy : > OS compatible -- the MS-DOS calls were the same, any program that used > those and those alone would run on both machines > BIOS compatible -- the BIOS calls were the same. You could use those (and > MS-DOS calls) and have no compatibility problems > Hardware compatible. The memory map was much the same, I/O devices had > the same registers at the same port addresses, the video system was the > same, and so on. You could 'hit the bare metal' with no compatability > problems. > It is the last level that we normally consider when we talk about 'PC > compatible' I think, Again, then the AT is already not 100% PC compatible. What I want to point out is that the whole concept of PC-compatible is quite blury and it comes down to all and every single application (and person using the programm). Also, your levels are not realy based on each other - as said before, we hat Workstations where the hardware was made from standard PC Main- boards (e.g. Tyan) but the Boot code was different (And no PC-BIOS), so it could not eat a standard boot block - but they could be loaded from a SCSI tape :) To make it fun again, there where boot Disks that loaded a RAM based BIOS, and then went ahead like any other PC. > > Thus every Pentium based computer would be PC-Compatible by definition. > By that defitinion _any_ computer is PC-Compatible. My HP71 could run an > interpreter written in BASIC that treats a couple of 9114 floppies as the > main memory of an emulated PC, and boots MS-DOS from a third one. > Accesss to video RAM could be sent to the HPIL video interface, and so on. > The fact that it would take years to even get to an MS-DOS prompt is > irrelevant :-) Righto - exactly my argument. > But OK, I'll rephrase the question. Are there Pentium-based machines that > can't run the standard Windows we all know and hate, or a slightly > modified version of said software (and for reasons other than the trivial > ones of insufficient memory or disk space etc). That is, I am thinking of > machines with very different I/O devices, etc. The question is, wehn does this start. I mean, You can boot a Windows XP CD from almost any Pentum (alike) based Machine that supports BIOS compatibility - all you need is having a disk with all needed drivers ready. Beside all the Windows-bashing we do (And I enjoy it too), it is a rather hardware independent OS Everything is covered in loadable driver layers. In cat, it bears less of a problems to get Windows running on weired machines than to get Linux running. Now, we have her machines with no IDE ports, no Floppy drives, all Disk-I/O is done via SCSI - still, I can boot and install a Windows. No doubt, SCSI was not part of the PC definition as done in the TechRef. > It appears such machines do exist. And I would argue that once they reach > sufficient age they should be considered as 'classics'. As I said, there have been several Workstations with PC-Hardware, but different Boot/BIOS-Code (e.g. Siemens WS 200). We had Pentium based Unix machines, thet definitly where different from PCs (Multibus based Boards) but still where using the same cheap support chips - so port addresses have been mostly the same. is it now a PC or not ? Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 31 07:18:52 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:18:52 +0200 Subject: Question about Z80 ISA bus board In-Reply-To: <44F63858.4030303@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <44F6EFCC.10803.5842D671@localhost> Am 30 Aug 2006 20:16 meinte Choctaw Bob: > Hope to generate less heat this time. > Full length ISA card, XT card edge connection, DB 37 male connector, > Z80B, 8 4164's, 2 2764's, 2 Mostek MK4801AN-4's, MC1420B, 10 MHZ > crystal, and a handful of 74LSxxx glue chips. Only identification > lettering is "BETRONIX = SWEDEN=PC84" Well, what do we have: Z80 64K RAM 16K ROM 2 K Dual Port RAM M_C_ 1420? MK1420 would be an oscilator Do you got some detailes pictures? To me this looks like eitner a Z80 coprocessor card to run CP/M, or, more some kind of control interface - that's what the DB connector would suggest. Betronix was/is a small company here in Muncih (haven't heared of them in years) - I'm not shure if it's related. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 31 08:00:25 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 09:00:25 -0400 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <200608301732110838.0055C38E@10.0.0.252> References: <200608302309.k7UN9lCx093273@keith.ezwind.net> <200608301654130112.0032FE47@10.0.0.252> <44F628D7.1000606@jetnet.ab.ca> <200608301732110838.0055C38E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <915e22e0b8384494e6f59b0bc031305f@neurotica.com> On Aug 30, 2006, at 8:32 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I need my thumbs to grab bannanas, I hang by my toes. :) >> Did any of the classic computers display in octal 0-7 >> rather than 3 lights per digit? Also what was the display >> device? > > Is a Heath H8 classic? Oh good heavens yes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Aug 31 08:57:10 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 09:57:10 -0400 Subject: A tree to grow In-Reply-To: <01ab01c6cc8a$1ff4ae00$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <44F5F4C3.25588.546E3A5E@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060831091026.05e1d268@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jay West may have mentioned these words: >...I am being dictatorial or setting up oppressive rules. And in all >honestly, I think a majority of the list wouldn't characterize my past >(nor present) behaviour that way. I certainly wouldn't... I don't say "list-marm" without reason - This list has become a 1500-child 1-room schoolhouse with Jay doing his best to keep the peace, and just like teachers nowadays, he doesn't even have a ruler to rap us on the knuckles with. > I like to think that in some [a]*small* way it was [b]*partly* my > leadership and accomodation to all parties that got us through that (as > well as a few other "crisis")... Yet another piece of info that states Jay's not the "evil overlord" here - as the needles should swing closer to [a]*huge* and [b]*mostly* WRT what's stated above... > In addition, over the past roughly decade here... I can only think of > one time I went against the lists wishes, and that was when a majority of > the list wanted Sellam banned. And Jay made the right decision, as the "rest of us" were all emotionally bent on this - Jay used his *brain*. And *maybe* this is against RFCs, but one of my .sigs is quite on point here, so I'll include it before the very end of my message: =-=-=-=-=-=-= Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | =-=-=-=-=-=-= What do you think my "incentive" was for writing that little missive??? ;-) ===================================================== | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 | | | ===================================================== Jay, here's my ASCII ruler. I hereby subscribe to try to never give you reason to use it, but I give you permission to whack my knuckles with it if you deem necessary. ;-) If there's anything I can do to help, just holler! Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 31 09:39:52 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:39:52 -0400 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) In-Reply-To: <44F66FFB.9000004@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> <44F66FFB.9000004@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200608311039.52530.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 31 August 2006 01:13 am, woodelf wrote: > Michael Holley wrote: > > have been adding to my magazine scans. I found a decade counter > > circuit implemented with four 12AU7 tubes (dual triodes) in the October > > 1955 Radio & Television News. (50 year rule.) > > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/ElectronicsWorld/Oct1955/RTVN_Oct1955.htm > >. > > Grumble Grumble Grumble $#!@ jpgs ... > How do you read um page 64 and 66 ??? With a lot of scrolling... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 31 09:49:28 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:49:28 -0400 Subject: C64 Packet carts In-Reply-To: <200608302300.52036.vax@purdue.edu> References: <200608302300.52036.vax@purdue.edu> Message-ID: <200608311049.28080.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 30 August 2006 11:00 pm, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 30 August 2006 16:54, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've never seen a US amateur radio license, but the UK one says that the > > license is for 'self training in wireless telegraphy'. Now, I will > > happily agree there's a lot more to wireless telegraphy than making > > transmitters and receivers, but I am a little curious as to what 'self > > training' you get by buying a transciever, buying a TNC, plugging them > > together (and presumably use the standard 'rubber duck' aerial of the > > portable transceiver). Oh, and running pre-written software to talk to > > the TNC. > > I'm pretty sure that the US one doesn't say anything like that. > > Also, in the US, we're a bit farther along than using ham radio only for > sending morse code... > > > There's nothing wrong with buying equipment, but IMHO you really should > > be thinking about doing some experimentation, modifications, and so on. > > > > Actually, one reason I've never got into packet radio is a lack of > > information one the internals of the TNC. I've not found an 'open' one -- > > as in published schematics and ROM source listings. > > Well, there's a software-based packet radio module in the Linux kernel. > > There's some details about it in the AX25-HOWTO: > http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/text/AX25-HOWTO > > Perhaps you could use that to figure it out. ;) I have files here covering that function done with a Xerox 820 (MULRPT.ZIP) or H/Z-89 or -90 (PACKET89.ZIP) that appear to include source, if anybody wants them... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Aug 31 10:19:47 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:19:47 -0400 Subject: Octal Message-ID: <01C6CCEF.7E99DA60@mse-d03> -----------Original message(s): Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 22:17:22 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Octal >>On 8/30/2006 at 9:45 PM woodelf wrote: >>I find computer calculator programs a pain. >Depends on the calculator. I use this one all of the time and would love >to have it in a nice little handheld: >http://www.bias.at/Download/english/calcdle.htm >But it does the job right now. >Cheers, >Chuck --------Reply: Looks quite interesting, but does it do hexadecimal? Talk to Don, maybe he can whip one up for ya for a price :-) mike From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Aug 31 09:50:43 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:50:43 -0400 Subject: Octal Message-ID: <01C6CCEF.7C3D9AE0@mse-d03> -----------Original message: Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 21:45:23 -0600 From: woodelf Subject: Re: Octal >I find computer calculator programs a pain. That's a pretty sweeping statement; their keyboard and display are as good as the one you use every day, cut and paste is often handy for avoiding entry errors and you don't have another item on your (non-virtual) desktop; best of all, if you don't like anything out there you could presumably create your own. I am curious: what exactly is it that you don't like about them? >In fact it is hard to find a good calculator - read >nice display -- good keyboard. You don't find that >with the $5 calculator market. I'm obviously less demanding; I'm quite happy with my $1.00 calculator: nice large LCD display, full size keys and solar-powered. Cheaply made, true, but that's why it cost $1.00, and it's served me well for 3 or 4 years; if it dies I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and spend another $1.00. I for one am amazed and delighted that calculators, computers etc. can be manufactured as cheaply as they are while in general being much more efficient/useful/powerful and just as reliable (or more so) than the products of yore, which would presumably cost several orders of magnitude more if manufactured the same way today and be completely out of my reach pricewise. mike From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Aug 31 10:13:38 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:13:38 -0400 Subject: Octal Message-ID: <01C6CCEF.7D94ED80@mse-d03> ----------Original message(s): Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:14:14 +1200 From: "Ethan Dicks" Subject: Re: Octal >> M H Stein wrote: >> >> I've found the Windows Calculator to be the most convenient >> (nicer keyboard & display and doesn't take any desk space). >> mike >I prefer 'dc', the calculator program that comes with UNIX - it does >different radix inputs and outputs, and uses RPN, plus, I _always_ >have a UNIX shell handy (and almost never have a real calculator or a >Windows box in front of me). Well, of course you'd use whatever you like and runs in the OS of your choice, but it's interesting to note how many people still use a "real" calculator when there's probably one on the screen in front of them, not to mention a spreadsheet program; every office user I visit still has a calculator on his/her desk... >I miss my old Sharp 4-banger with the flourescent digits. I have the >parts in a bag, but it needs some serious plastic reconstruction - I >think the plasticizer was all baked out - the case is seriously >brittle. >-ethan That raises an interesting question: does anyone know of any substance that actually "revitalizes" brittle plastic? m From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Aug 31 10:29:28 2006 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:29:28 -0700 Subject: DATIP from clr always? (obscure unibus & pdp-11 question) In-Reply-To: <44F6095F.9060506@mindspring.com> References: <200608301735.k7UHZvT5013786@mwave.heeltoe.com> <44F6095F.9060506@mindspring.com> Message-ID: At 2:55 PM -0700 8/30/06, Don North wrote: >Brad Parker wrote: >>An obscure unibus & pdp-11 question: >> >>Does "clr" always do a DATIP (i.e. read-modify-write) on all 11's? >> > >According to the PDP-11 CPU handbooks, the J-11 based designs did >the extra optimization so a CLR does not do the read, only the write >cycle (see item #36 in later handbooks). > For those that don't have this handy and to fully document the discussion, here is the text of item 36 from the 1983-84 Architecture Handbook: CLR and SXT do just a DATO sequence for the last bus cycle: 23/24, J-11. CLR and SXT do DATIP-DATO sequence for the last bus cycle: all others. John From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Aug 31 10:59:35 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:59:35 -0500 Subject: QIC 80 drive needed Message-ID: <675082a66b4b4b5786077fbe5bef6330@valleyimplants.com> I am engaged in a Personal IRIS troubleshooting attempt with a gentleman from B.C. (via the Internet) and he happened to drop that he had a A/UX tape that he could not read as his tape drive had "gone goo" It turns out to be A/UX 1.1 (!) Does anyone here nearish to BC have a working QIC-80 so we can get this thing backed up? Barring that, how about dimensions on roller tyres? From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 31 11:17:34 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 09:17:34 -0700 Subject: QIC 80 drive needed Message-ID: > he happened to drop that he had a A/UX tape that he could not read as his tape > drive had "gone goo" It turns out to be A/UX 1.1 (!) I really hope he didn't discover this by attempting to read the tape. If so, he now has goo on the tape, and it will be extremely difficult to recover. FWIW, I have an image of A/UX 1.0, made in the days when the only way to get a copy was to go over to Bubb Road with a disc and have the original A/UX group clone it for you. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 31 11:36:12 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:36:12 -0600 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <01C6CCEF.7C3D9AE0@mse-d03> References: <01C6CCEF.7C3D9AE0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <44F70FFC.60107@jetnet.ab.ca> M H Stein wrote: > That's a pretty sweeping statement; their keyboard and display > are as good as the one you use every day, cut and paste is > often handy for avoiding entry errors and you don't have another > item on your (non-virtual) desktop; best of all, if you don't like anything > out there you could presumably create your own. Simple the calculator needs a mouse or hot keys all over the computer keyboard. If you want to do any complex equation or add more than 3 numbers the mouse or keyboard craps out on you. > I'm obviously less demanding; I'm quite happy with my $1.00 > calculator: nice large LCD display, full size keys and solar-powered. > Cheaply made, true, but that's why it cost $1.00, and it's served me > well for 3 or 4 years; if it dies I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and > spend another $1.00. Hey just use a PDF file.:) One company I ordered from has the PDF file order form that lets you do all the sums for the order total. You still have to type in the line items and order #'s how ever. > I for one am amazed and delighted that calculators, computers etc. > can be manufactured as cheaply as they are while in general being > much more efficient/useful/powerful and just as reliable (or more so) > than the products of yore, which would presumably cost several orders > of magnitude more if manufactured the same way today and be > completely out of my reach pricewise. Well I don't fit in with the mass market product for calculators. I am also the one that still sends money orders for mail order products rather than using a credit card on line. Mostly I need '1/x' and scientific notation rather than all the scientific functions. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 31 11:37:18 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 09:37:18 -0700 Subject: PC-Compatibility (Was: Pentium for Non-PC) In-Reply-To: <44F6E6D3.1821.581FC7F4@localhost> References: <44F605AA.18014.54B0429B@localhost> <44F6E6D3.1821.581FC7F4@localhost> Message-ID: <200608310937180737.03C95836@10.0.0.252> On 8/31/2006 at 1:40 PM Hans Franke wrote: >Now, that would be the 5150. In that context, already the 5170 AT >is no longer compatible. And no Pentium system I can think of ever >will be. Well, there's the old (1990?) MS document on what a "Windows PC" is that might serve as a more up-to-date reference for 386-and-above class machines. Prior to that, there was more than one kind of PC compatibility. Take, for example, the NEC 9801 series. 1024-byte sectors on floppies, different BIOS, keyboard, video and port addresses from what we're used to. The dominant "PC" architecture in Japan for many years. MS officially released MS-DOS, Windows (3.x 95 and NT) specially tailored to it. You may yet run across references to "DOS-V" as well as 1.3MB 3.5" floppies. There are some who might consider the Peanut not to be "PC compatible" for that matter. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 31 11:42:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 09:42:34 -0700 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <01C6CCEF.7E99DA60@mse-d03> References: <01C6CCEF.7E99DA60@mse-d03> Message-ID: <200608310942340701.03CE2A73@10.0.0.252> On 8/31/2006 at 11:19 AM M H Stein wrote: >Looks quite interesting, but does it do hexadecimal? > >Talk to Don, maybe he can whip one up for ya for a price :-) This is one calculator not well suited to a single numeric keyboard with display. I can well imagine a mechanical version of something like this with gears and dials--and maybe something in the form of a slide rule. From maynard at jmg.com Thu Aug 31 11:19:28 2006 From: maynard at jmg.com (maynard at jmg.com) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:19:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986 Message-ID: Hello, I have recently come upon a collection of Byte Magazines from 1976 through to about 1986. It is not complete, that is I do not have every issue across that time span. But the collection is pretty comprehensive. I have a scanner with an auto document feeder. I'd like to scan this material in and post it online as a collection of jpgs. However, to do this well would require destroying the bindings of each magazine in order to get a completely flat scan of each page. Questions: - Is it wrong to destroy these magazines in order to scan them in for posterity? - Are they as rare as I think? That is, are there plenty of copies around such that historians and others interested in classic computing would not find this project of interest? - Is the copyright violation involved (on 25 - 30 year old magazines) really an issue? Thanks, --M From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 31 11:56:23 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:56:23 -0500 Subject: PC-Compatibility (Was: Pentium for Non-PC) In-Reply-To: <200608310937180737.03C95836@10.0.0.252> References: <44F605AA.18014.54B0429B@localhost> <44F6E6D3.1821.581FC7F4@localhost> <200608310937180737.03C95836@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060831114643.058d8c60@mail> At 11:37 AM 8/31/2006, you wrote: >Well, there's the old (1990?) MS document on what a "Windows PC" is that >might serve as a more up-to-date reference for 386-and-above class >machines. I think there are moments in this endless debate where some argue for a definition that actually means "sufficiently obscure." It's always the Windows machine that centers the debate. Never, say, the Newton. Yet many details of pre-1995 computers will seem obscure to many other people, people who don't own troubleshooting manuals from that era, who didn't ever learn how to set up Kermit or TCP/IP or NFS on old DOS or Windows machines, or Windows for Workgroups, or Win32s, etc. Those people will find this list and ask questions, even without understanding any list rule (that doesn't exist.) - John From spc at conman.org Thu Aug 31 09:41:01 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:41:01 -0400 Subject: Thinking Machines CM-1 was Re: Pentium for Non-PC was 10 year rule blah blah blah In-Reply-To: <44F6D819.2433.57E64387@localhost> References: <200608310345.k7V3j7CQ013134@floodgap.com> <44F6D819.2433.57E64387@localhost> Message-ID: <20060831144101.GO129@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Hans Franke once stated: > > > _The Connection Machine_ by W. Daniel Hillis contains quite a bit of > > infomration on the machine: > > > The host [...] > > > -spc(I do recomend the book---it's very informative) > > Oh, cool, it seams as if you got an electronic version? > Any pointers to that available? Nope, that was me typing that in. -spc (Sorry ... ) From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Aug 31 12:17:10 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:17:10 -0400 Subject: Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608311317.10845.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 31 August 2006 12:19, maynard at jmg.com wrote: > Hello, > > I have recently come upon a collection of Byte Magazines from 1976 > through to about 1986. It is not complete, that is I do not have every > issue across that time span. But the collection is pretty comprehensive. > > I have a scanner with an auto document feeder. I'd like to scan this > material in and post it online as a collection of jpgs. However, to do > this well would require destroying the bindings of each magazine in order > to get a completely flat scan of each page. > > Questions: > > - Is it wrong to destroy these magazines in order to scan them > in for posterity? I don't think so. FWIW, I wouldn't scan (especially post!) them as JPEG images. I'd suggest that you do this the way that Al Kossow does with Bitsavers docs - scan as a 1bpp TIFF, and use Group4 fax compression, then convert into a PDF. Optionally, spend lots of time OCR'ing the articles, and post text versions as well. If you need to do color, it's not too hard to scan just the pages that need to be color in as color, and use some other compression method, and shove them into the middle of the B&W pages. Check the archives on scanning for details, we've had a few discussions on the subject of how to do this (it's easier with a *nix box than a Windows box IMO). The only thing that I don't particularly like about ADF's is their aparent tendancy to feed pages and scan them at 5 or 10 degree rotation from "vertical". It's definately nicer to have the info than to not have it, but that rotation offset (which usually ends up being one direction for fronts and the other for backs of pages) really gets on my nerves when I'm trying to read something. Not all ADF's have the problem though, and the one I've got on my scanner seems to work ok. > - Are they as rare as I think? That is, are there plenty of copies > around such that historians and others interested in classic computing > would not find this project of interest? Well, I've got a set of Byte, and I think they span more dates... I'd rather see them archived on electronic (and publicly accessible) media than have another copy sitting in someone's basement, never to see the light of day again. > - Is the copyright violation involved (on 25 - 30 year old magazines) > really an issue? Possibly. You can thank Disney for our current 100(?) year copyright length limitation. I haven't gotten any cease and desist letters yet myself. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 31 12:25:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:25:24 -0700 Subject: Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608311025240203.03F55F61@10.0.0.252> On 8/31/2006 at 12:19 PM maynard at jmg.com wrote: > - Is the copyright violation involved (on 25 - 30 year old magazines) >really an issue? Assuming the copyright holder or its assignee still exists, it probably is. Some (and I think the publishers of BYTE are one) do a tidy business in reprints from old issues and would take umbrage were you to post or distribute their content without permission. The question comes up quite frequently on music lists and the answer is always the same: If the material is currently covered by copyright---ASK the copyright owner. There's no substitute for permission. This extends to software, which enjoys the same term of protection that printed matter and recorded music does. Unilaterally declaring something as "abandonware" and posting it on the web or distributing copies without permission is illegal and is particularly odious if the owner can be easily located. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 31 13:30:33 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:30:33 +0000 Subject: Pentium for Non-PC (Was Statement & apology (was Re: 10 year whine fest) In-Reply-To: <20060831011900.24923.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200608310014.k7V0EKeX077368@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20060831011900.24923.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <44F72AC9.7030901@yahoo.co.uk> Ken Seefried wrote: > The ASCI Red supercomputer built by Intel used PPros; see > http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/aries/course/notes/ascii_red.pdf. I > think the compute nodes were pretty off-the-shelf SMP PPro designs, so > some might consider it off-topic. > Bit more info for the PDF-impaired: http://www.pact.sscc.ru/hardware/computer/#IntelASCIRed (plus two of the three 'see also' links still seem to work!) cheers J. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Aug 31 12:52:48 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:52:48 -0700 Subject: Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44F721F0.6030306@dakotacom.net> maynard at jmg.com wrote: > Hello, > > I have recently come upon a collection of Byte Magazines from 1976 > through to about 1986. It is not complete, that is I do not have every > issue across that time span. But the collection is pretty comprehensive. > > I have a scanner with an auto document feeder. I'd like to scan this > material in and post it online as a collection of jpgs. However, to do > this well would require destroying the bindings of each magazine in order > to get a completely flat scan of each page. Before you commit to destroying one or more bindings TO ACCOMMODATE YOUR ADF, you might consider taking a *similar* magazine and "processing it" first. Your ADF might not be kind to the pages (magazines are printed on "different" paper than you would find in, e.g., a textbook). From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 31 12:53:14 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:53:14 -0700 Subject: Anyone recognize this board? Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280023622647 It's NOT a Qniverter. From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 31 13:01:22 2006 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mercury cells (was e: Sharp PC-1211) In-Reply-To: <200608311700.k7VH05dq093158@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20060831180122.29087.qmail@web50503.mail.yahoo.com> > > > > mercury cells. Today, since they're illegal in the US from what I > > > > understand, > > > Are they? Anybody know for sure? I know they were hard to find last > > > time I looked (over a decade ago) but there were some out there... > > In 1995, I was unable to buy mercury cells for my Konica 35mm SLR. I > > _was_ able to find a set at a store in Christchurch, NZ. Dunno if they are > > still legal there or not. > > Yes, according to Camera & Camera (big local camera store in Auckland) > they're still legal and available here (NZ). They can no longer be sold in the US because of their mercury content. However, when I was investigating some time ago if there were any compatible substitutes for the mercury cell used in the metering system of an old Yashicamat 124 medium format camera I owned, the use of type AC675E zinc-air cells was recommended. Someone made an adapter/holder for these modern cells which was the same form factor as the old mercury cells and intended for camera owners in this situation. This might give you a lead on where to look. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Aug 31 03:27:17 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 09:27:17 +0100 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 31 Aug 2006 00:47:45 EDT." <200608310047.45645.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608310827.JAA19962@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Roy J. Tellason said: > > Anybody having any vacuum tubes they don't want, I might be interested. I > can't offer much of anything for them, but if they're gonna get tossed... Just for informational purposes: 12AU7s (and 12AX7 and 12AT7) are still available new. You probably won't like the price, but they're still in production - us electric guitar players use them, -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 31 13:12:04 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone recognize this board? In-Reply-To: from "Al Kossow" at Aug 31, 2006 10:53:14 AM Message-ID: <200608311812.k7VIC4Js000424@onyx.spiritone.com> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280023622647 > > It's NOT a Qniverter. It might be a Univerter. I've never seen one in person though. For that matter I can't even remember what the two Qniverters I have look like. Zane From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Thu Aug 31 13:25:07 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:25:07 +0100 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) References: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2><200608310047.45645.rtellason@verizon.net><44F66FF2.7040605@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <005501c6cd2a$c95d6720$0200a8c0@p2deskto> From: "Ethan Dicks" > On 8/31/06, woodelf wrote: > > The ads list a 12au7 for about 65 cents in 1955. In 2006 a generic 12au7 > > is about $8.00. I suspect a better deal now than 50 years ago. > > Hmm... if I leave off seconds and just go with minutes/hours, I think > I have enough. Even with modern wages, a bag full of tubes costs > enough to make me want to simplify the design. > > The real trick, now, I guess, is how to take 60Hz mains and clock it > down to 1/60Hz with 1955 technology. > > -ethan Thyratron divider circuits. http://www.g1jbg.co.uk/thyratro.htm Divide by any integer, using around 6 components (the practical division limit is around 6, but I've made them work as a divide by ten). Jim. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 31 13:32:44 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:32:44 -0500 Subject: QIC 80 drive needed References: <675082a66b4b4b5786077fbe5bef6330@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <004901c6cd2b$e0ec53f0$6700a8c0@BILLING> I have a working QIC-80 drive or two.... and the FC controller (or two) for it. But I'm in STL MO. Let me know offlist if you need it. J ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Quinn" To: Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 10:59 AM Subject: QIC 80 drive needed > > > I am engaged in a Personal IRIS troubleshooting attempt with a gentleman > from B.C. (via the Internet) > and he happened to drop that he had a A/UX tape that he could not read as > his tape drive had "gone goo" > It turns out to be A/UX 1.1 (!) Does anyone here nearish to BC have a > working QIC-80 so we can get this thing > backed up? Barring that, how about dimensions on roller tyres? > > > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Aug 31 13:48:44 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:48:44 -0400 Subject: Anyone recognize this board? In-Reply-To: <200608311812.k7VIC4Js000424@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200608311812.k7VIC4Js000424@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200608311448.45013.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 31 August 2006 14:12, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280023622647 > > > > It's NOT a Qniverter. > > It might be a Univerter. I've never seen one in person though. For > that matter I can't even remember what the two Qniverters I have look > like. They look like this: http://search.ebay.com/280023627389 Which looks somewhat similar to the other board that Al posted about above. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 31 13:53:31 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:53:31 +0200 Subject: A tree to grow (Was: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)) In-Reply-To: <01C6CC6E.77834BC0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <44F74C4B.6991.59AC24B4@localhost> Hi Mike, Am 30 Aug 2006 19:56 meinte M H Stein: > From: "Hans Franke" > > what I found was a small group of rather unique and mature people. > People that did have a real life, quite a difference to some tight bean > counters often found. This rich vault of knowledge not only includes > profound computer knowledge, but was eualy visible when the topics > discussed went astray. > ... > And even the most firce discusion about weapons or cars came in a > natural way all back sooner or later to our core topic. > > Well, as is usually the case, some of the people who later join a list are > not always as serious or mature as the founders... Oh, we'll make them ... some will work hard to tell them new curse words, while other (or the very same) will give the needed insight in technology :) > So, if I understand you, you're saying that discussions about weapons, > cars, etc. are OK on this list and will eventually die on their own, but we > definitely need a "RULE" to make sure that none of this "vault of knowledge" > is made available to someone with a computer manufactured after August > 1996? Just the other way arround. I see it as our obligation to bring this knowledge to our youg ones :) Serious, I have just served 5 weeks in a 1000 sqft store we got for an exhibition, right in the center of the city: http://www.flickr.com/photos/stiefkind/sets/72157594203840265/ Well, beside having to take up with 7 year old that tried to convince me that all the old computers are just crap, 'cause he owns a Playstation 2 that deinitly rules, I had also a few enlightening moments. One of the most impressing (to me) where three youngsters - about 14-16 years, walked in. Well, they where exactly NOT what I would consider geeks. You know, wearing this kind of baggy pants, special hats, souped up phones, and a slang where you'd usualy would beg them to tilt their head, so that at least some grey matter may find together... Now, they where spending som 15-20 minutes among the exhibition, already a way above average. But then they discovered the Vextrex with the Logo cart. I gave the usual short explanation with my flower example http://www.vectorzoa.com/logo/logo_gallery_nga.html and then I was moved asside - for the next two hours they discovered the world of small old computers with an odd programming environment. With their OWN ideas. Well, I still have my doubts about some cloth, but it agin gave me hope. There are as many out there as there have been 20 years ago - they are just well hidden, so yes, we have to be open to all. > You're not worried that allowing discussions of the relative merits > of a Luger vs. a Glock will turn this list into a weapons forum, as some > people are about new-ish computers? No, call me an optimistic fool, but I belive in people. And the main interest of the people gathered her are computers, so it's natural that all comes back to computers and there go to the more unusual, crude or just cool stuff, which again will be 99.5% happen to be classic. Gives a quite good ratio I think. And again, this is why this list was so different from all the other classic or techlists I know. Real people with real knowledge with a comon denominator - but not tight bolt down to it. BTW, definitly the Glock :) > Hans, I respect you enormously, but this is just silly. And as far as > Jay being some kind of autocratic czar, _obviously_ from time to time > this list needs someone with some authority and control to step in and > get things back on track (unfortunately). > If we need a rule (for what they're worth) I think the only relevant one is that > discussions here have something to do with *COMPUTERS*! Usualy these spin offs came from computer issues. I can't realy remember one that was brought off on its own. > Considering the disdain prevailing here for users of PCs and anything from > Seattle, I'd think that anyone asking how to install XP Home on his Athlon > will either be ignored or quickly taken off-list; what are you guys getting so > exercised and anal about? ??? It is exactly that self ruling, that I want to keep and nurture. Any kind of hard rules will just feed the some tight guys to go rule fighing. Thus the 109 year rule always has just been a gudeline for some new menbers to get into the right seting ... and then enjoy the freedom the list is/has. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Thu Aug 31 13:50:35 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:50:35 -0600 Subject: Imaging DEC uVAX MFM drives In-Reply-To: References: <0J4T00BYB53QBQB8@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> <44F5CC2A.5090700@rogerwilco.org> <44F5DFD0.1090504@gmail.com> <44F62B28.6040504@mdrconsult.com> <44F6450E.9070708@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <44F72F7B.1090907@rogerwilco.org> Paul Thompson wrote: > On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, J Blaser wrote: > >> >> At this point the system just hangs right there. I never get any >> kind of login prompt or any other messages. Looks like it's really >> wanting some NFS volumes that no longer are available. >> > > I suggest booting single user mode. You look to be 99% booted and > perhaps someone doesn't have a getty turned on the console. > > I have a mips ultrix machine so my console doesn't work the same, but > google around some. It would be BOOT/R5:00000001 DKAxxx or something > similar. I have a boot manual around somewhere if google isn't > forthcoming. > I'll give that a try. I don't have any information on the various boot options/parameters, and am just winging this as I go. I'll try your command for kicks, as well as google around some before I pester you for the boot manual info. Thanks. Also, your reference to a MIPS ULTRIX machine is of interest, since another system I have that is in sequence for investigation is a DECsystem 5400 with an RF215(IIRC right now) expansion box. I sadly see that NetBSD is not available for this machine, but if I can recover Ultrix from it safely, then I might have some joy. Jared From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Aug 31 13:56:45 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:56:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Pentium for Non-PC (Was Statement & apology (was Re: 10 year whine fest) In-Reply-To: <200608302357.58136.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608310014.k7V0EKeX077368@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20060831011900.24923.qmail@seefried.com> <200608302357.58136.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> Wasn't that "The Connection Machine"? >> >> Nope. Connection Machines were made by Thinking Machines, Inc., and they >> don't use Pentiums. They use gobs (up to something like 16k) of >> proprietary processors. > > I'm vaguely remembering something about what chip that was, but now I can't > remember what it was called. Ah, would that have been the "transputer", > maybe? No, transputers are 16 or 32 bit RISC chips, some with 64 bit IEEE floating point either in hardware or emulated via microcoded instructions. Their best features are: 4 async 2-pair 5, 10 or 20MHz full duplex communication links on die, a minimal ammount of RAM on die, and the ability to be booted and debugged over any of the 4 links. Thus, you can build a parallel "computing surface" with just the transputer chips plus power and clock sources. They also have a fairly flexible RAM/ROM interface, but it's entirely optional. Finally, the whole family is machine language compatible (later members only extended the instruction set). In theory this let you mix family members in a machine, but unfortunately there was no "what family member am I running on" instruction. Alexey From marvin at rain.org Thu Aug 31 14:11:25 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:11:25 -0700 Subject: IBM 5630 Message-ID: <44F7345D.9E4B2391@rain.org> An IBM 5630 has been listed on VCM free for pickup. It includes: Expansion cabin, 8" Diskette Changer, 2 X Reel to Reel tape drives, 2 X Line printers http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Aug 31 14:19:01 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:19:01 -0700 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) References: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> <200608310047.45645.rtellason@verizon.net> <44F66FF2.7040605@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <44F73625.93033C39@cs.ubc.ca> Michael Holley wrote: > I have been adding to my magazine scans. I found a decade counter circuit > implemented with four 12AU7 tubes (dual triodes) in the October 1955 Radio & > Television News. (50 year rule.) > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/ElectronicsWorld/Oct1955/RTVN_Oct1955.htm Interesting, that's essentially a copy (minor circuit diffs) of the HP AC-4A decade counter module, down to the pinout of the octal plug. Northeastern Eng. also made them and the ones by Beckman are similar?identical. I've been trying to figure out who actually made them first (I suspect HP). http://www.nixiebunny.com/hpac4/index.html http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/HP520.html#AC4 Ethan Dicks wrote: > The real trick, now, I guess, is how to take 60Hz mains and clock it > down to 1/60Hz with 1955 technology. The electronic technique in the day would have been to use the phantastron circuit. Division up to a factor of 10 for a known fixed input frequency required only one active device and one diode. An RC delay was used to inhibit input triggers for a period of time between n-1 and n cycles, so that only the n'th input cycle would result in retriggerring. Division by 3600 could be accomplished with just 4 active devices. Same principle but a little simpler still in circuitry than the monostable technique mentioned by Allison. (The other technique likely to have been used in the day would have been a synchronous motor, gear reduction to 1RPM and an optical sensor.) Tube-digital clock projects: http://www.eldocountry.com/projects/tubeclock.html >From the tube complement I think it uses one phantastron circuit and a dekatron for power-line div-by-60. And http://www.selectric.org/tubeclock/ I was thinking of going for a new-old hybrid design where one stayed with a string of decade counter/displays and programmed a microcontroller as a TOD clock which then pumped the counter string at 1Hz or 1/60Hz, with bursts of fast pulses to invisibly jump over the 60 to 99 range. Any old frequency/event counter could be turned into a clock with no or minimal modification. With the micro continuously powered, one could power up/down the old power-hungry stuff without having to manually set the time on every occasion. I'd hazard a guess you won't be running this thing 24/7 at the South Pole unless the 'energy accountants' are willing to include it in the heating budget :) From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 31 14:27:28 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:27:28 +0200 Subject: List Join (was: A tree to grow) In-Reply-To: <01b801c6cc8b$6dc05700$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <44F75440.23861.59CB3B62@localhost> Am 30 Aug 2006 18:24 meinte Jay West: > One further tidbit I meant to include in my long explanation.... > [...] > And without the two lists being recombined, I wouldn't be terribly hopeful > for the future of the list and the website - or at least my willingness to > continue to run it. Not for any childish reason, but because many of the > future plans I have for classiccmp.org would be substantially more difficult > with two lists, and the time required to maintain the two list approach has > become completely untennable. It has to end, or people with infinitely more > free time (and bandwidth) than me need to take over the list. I don't realy see where the reasoning is do do this, except to eliminate CC-Talk. After all, the hard disagreement with a governed CC-Talk was the original reaon for creating CC-Tech. To me, there is no real reason to do so. Except, well, the not working and rather fruiless idea to crosspost. As hard as it comes, but we have two incompatible concepts. Instead of now choosing one over the other (or some whish-wash kind of combination), the best would be to keep the orgins as they are. CC-Tech is the 'clean' list, where on topic is handled rather strict, while CC-Talk is the free environment. Two seperate entities. It's up to decide for everyone on his own what's the flavour he likes. No cross posting, no interferences. I'm not shure what kind of plans you have, but if a 'clean' list is what you need or it, then it's up to you to point the difference out in a way to archive that target. And highlight CC-Tech. If you're shure that the original list, and I still see CC-Talk as the legacy, is no longer of interest to you, I would prefer to offer the necersary hosting. To make this clear, I had no inclinations to do so, but there is no need in having a point and then backing off (Me and my bigh mouth:). Somebody already put this question up, so yes, if that's the right way to go, I am willing to take the time and put it on one of my servers. The needed performance should be available to host CC-Talk. Again, my goal was to have the list run as it was intended, NOT to take it over or such. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Aug 31 14:30:14 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:30:14 +0200 Subject: IBM 5630 In-Reply-To: <44F7345D.9E4B2391@rain.org> Message-ID: <44F754E6.28372.59CDC1AF@localhost> Am 31 Aug 2006 12:11 meinte Marvin Johnston: > An IBM 5630 has been listed on VCM free for pickup. It includes: > Expansion cabin, 8" Diskette Changer, 2 X Reel to Reel tape drives, 2 X Line > printers > http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/ Oh good God ... I whish they finaly would finish the bridge over, so I could go by and pick it up... Hans -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Aug 31 14:32:53 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:32:53 -0700 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) References: <200608310827.JAA19962@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <44F73965.282E4645@cs.ubc.ca> Stan Barr wrote: > > Just for informational purposes: 12AU7s (and 12AX7 and 12AT7) are still > available new. You probably won't like the price, but they're still in > production - us electric guitar players use them, Note that for flip-flops one should 'properly' be using types such as 5963 or 6211 ("computer tubes") to avoid the cathode emission problems which results from one half of the flip-flop being in the same state for long periods (IIRC it was the one at cut-off). (Perhaps not a problem for a clock, I don't how extreme the asymmetry had to be before the problem showed up.) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 31 14:39:05 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:39:05 -0600 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) In-Reply-To: <44F73625.93033C39@cs.ubc.ca> References: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> <200608310047.45645.rtellason@verizon.net> <44F66FF2.7040605@jetnet.ab.ca> <44F73625.93033C39@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <44F73AD9.9050801@jetnet.ab.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > I was thinking of going for a new-old hybrid design where one stayed with a > string of decade counter/displays and programmed a microcontroller as a TOD > clock which then pumped the counter string at 1Hz or 1/60Hz, with bursts of > fast pulses to invisibly jump over the 60 to 99 range. Any old frequency/event > counter could be turned into a clock with no or minimal modification. With the > micro continuously powered, one could power up/down the old power-hungry stuff > without having to manually set the time on every occasion. > > I'd hazard a guess you won't be running this thing 24/7 at the South Pole > unless the 'energy accountants' are willing to include it in the heating > budget :) Well can't you use neon tube logic and nixie tubes + a few diodes to make a clock. This ain't high freq stuff here. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 31 14:44:57 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: List Join (was: A tree to grow) In-Reply-To: <44F75440.23861.59CB3B62@localhost> from "Hans Franke" at Aug 31, 2006 09:27:28 PM Message-ID: <200608311944.k7VJiw6x002497@onyx.spiritone.com> > I don't realy see where the reasoning is do do this, except > to eliminate CC-Talk. After all, the hard disagreement with > a governed CC-Talk was the original reaon for creating CC-Tech. I believe the reason is that each message to CC-Tech has to be manually approved. That alone seems like a reason to remerge the two to me. Zane From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Aug 31 14:51:43 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:51:43 -0500 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <915e22e0b8384494e6f59b0bc031305f@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <004201c6cd36$e2aec370$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> I've found the Apple calculator program to be indespensible in debugging my 11/34. Not only does it do hex, octal, binary, etc. it groups the digits in whatever form you want for easy counting (i.e. when you're trying to figure out what jumper is what on the evil M7800) > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 8:00 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Octal > > On Aug 30, 2006, at 8:32 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I need my thumbs to grab bannanas, I hang by my toes. :) > Did any of > >> the classic computers display in octal 0-7 rather than 3 > lights per > >> digit? Also what was the display device? > > > > Is a Heath H8 classic? > > Oh good heavens yes. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Cape Coral, FL > > From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Aug 31 14:52:48 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:52:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986 In-Reply-To: <44F721F0.6030306@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <20060831195248.8595858255@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Don > > maynard at jmg.com wrote: > > Hello, > > > > I have recently come upon a collection of Byte Magazines from 1976 > > through to about 1986. It is not complete, that is I do not have every > > issue across that time span. But the collection is pretty comprehensive. > > > > I have a scanner with an auto document feeder. I'd like to scan this > > material in and post it online as a collection of jpgs. However, to do > > this well would require destroying the bindings of each magazine in order > > to get a completely flat scan of each page. > > Before you commit to destroying one or more bindings TO ACCOMMODATE > YOUR ADF, you might consider taking a *similar* magazine and > "processing it" first. Your ADF might not be kind to the pages > (magazines are printed on "different" paper than you would find > in, e.g., a textbook). But even if you didn't use the ADF to scan the pages, it is much easier and you get a better scan from a sheet of paper then a page directly from a magazine - no "curl" near where the spine is... Cheers, Bryan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Aug 31 12:19:07 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:19:07 -0400 Subject: Octal Message-ID: <0J4V000Y7HB5RUU0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Octal > From: M H Stein > Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:13:38 -0400 > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" > >----------Original message(s): > >Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:14:14 +1200 >From: "Ethan Dicks" >Subject: Re: Octal > >>> M H Stein wrote: >>> >>> I've found the Windows Calculator to be the most convenient >>> (nicer keyboard & display and doesn't take any desk space). >>> mike > >>I prefer 'dc', the calculator program that comes with UNIX - it does >>different radix inputs and outputs, and uses RPN, plus, I _always_ >>have a UNIX shell handy (and almost never have a real calculator or a >>Windows box in front of me). > >Well, of course you'd use whatever you like and runs in the OS of your >choice, but it's interesting to note how many people still use a "real" >calculator when there's probably one on the screen in front of them, >not to mention a spreadsheet program; every office user I visit still >has a calculator on his/her desk... Lesse, While the calc on my NT4 box has most of the right stuff it doesn't do logic (AND, OR, XOR, NOT) and if I ask for a "tape" the printer is at the other side of the room. Feh! Often I need the result when NOT at a PC. > >>I miss my old Sharp 4-banger with the flourescent digits. I have the >>parts in a bag, but it needs some serious plastic reconstruction - I >>think the plasticizer was all baked out - the case is seriously >>brittle. > >>-ethan > >That raises an interesting question: does anyone know of any substance >that actually "revitalizes" brittle plastic? None. In a few cases I used the old parts to cast new. Allison From kossow at computerhistory.org Thu Aug 31 12:51:39 2006 From: kossow at computerhistory.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:51:39 -0700 Subject: Anyone recognize this board? Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280023622647 It's NOT a Qniverter. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Aug 31 14:57:19 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:57:19 -0400 Subject: QIC 80 drive needed References: Message-ID: <005e01c6cd37$aae94ef0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 12:17 PM Subject: Re: QIC 80 drive needed > > > he happened to drop that he had a A/UX tape that he could not read as his tape > > drive had "gone goo" It turns out to be A/UX 1.1 (!) > > I really hope he didn't discover this by attempting to read the tape. If so, > he now has goo on the tape, and it will be extremely difficult to recover. > > FWIW, I have an image of A/UX 1.0, made in the days when the only way to get > a copy was to go over to Bubb Road with a disc and have the original A/UX > group clone it for you. > > > Any chance of you sharing that image of A/UX 1.0? From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 31 15:01:59 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:01:59 -0500 Subject: List Join References: <44F75440.23861.59CB3B62@localhost> Message-ID: <007e01c6cd38$5274d950$6700a8c0@BILLING> Hans wrote... > I don't realy see where the reasoning is do do this, except > to eliminate CC-Talk. Since you don't see it, let me be crystal clear - there is NO intent to eliminate CCtalk. Period. Never was my intent, nor did I say or intone that it was. It would appear that from what Hans is saying he wants completely unmoderated cctalk, or else. I tend to believe in people, that people can meet in the middle and get along. I would like to believe that if the cctalk people could accept just slightly more moderation than they wish, and cctech people could accept just slightly less moderation than they wish, that maybe there could be a happy medium and people could get along. Hans on the other hand is convinced that people can't get along and the two must be kept separate. That's easy for him to say since he doesn't have to spend the time moderating posts every day (see below). There is an additional issue - the amount of time and effort needed to keep the two lists separate has grown as the list has grown, and now even with 3+ people doing it - it is unfair to ask these people to continue doing so. Not that they have complained, but the fact is that it is not fair for these people to spend so much time when the people posting should take more responsibility for what they post (and others should take more responsibility in just hitting the delete button). When the list was smaller, it was an easier route to go to say "fine, split the lists, we'll just moderate it". Now that the workload for that isn't so easy, it's best to swing the other direction and say "people, get along". And THIS discussion as well has been beat to death so much over the past year or so that the bloody mass is no longer recognizable as a horse. I brought this up for discussion on the list more than once, it was discussed vigorously, and quite simply, I didn't get more than one or two negative responses. I really hope we aren't headed down the path of re-beating this horse again. If so, I should create another list so people can posture and pontificate all over again. > Again, my goal was to have the list run as it was intended, > NOT to take it over or such. Hans, I realize that it is probably very difficult for you to understand or visualize my position since you don't have to get the direct complaint emails from listmembers that I do. But please consider my advice as someone who has been there, done that, and has the battlescars - you can't have a list this large with the exact same charter that the small original list had. It does not work. I've been on the bludgeoning end of that for too long. J From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Aug 31 15:06:34 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060831200634.4769458278@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by maynard at jmg.com > > > Hello, > > I have recently come upon a collection of Byte Magazines from 1976 > through to about 1986. It is not complete, that is I do not have every > issue across that time span. But the collection is pretty comprehensive. > > I have a scanner with an auto document feeder. I'd like to scan this > material in and post it online as a collection of jpgs. However, to do > this well would require destroying the bindings of each magazine in order > to get a completely flat scan of each page. > I have thought about this too.. I would probably take my magazines to be scanned to a print shop and have them chop of the bindings with their paper trimming machine then use a manual paper trimmer.. (Of course I would save the spines!) Cheers, Bryan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 31 15:21:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 13:21:03 -0700 Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <001c01c6ccc3$b7e64b90$2101a8c0@finans> References: <3.0.6.16.20060828162500.109f9a2c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20060828202619.E96581@shell.lmi.net> <200608301202.49893.rtellason@verizon.net> <200608301024440400.0052265B@10.0.0.252> <20060830111301.A2832@shell.lmi.net> <001c01c6ccc3$b7e64b90$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <200608311321030884.0496309E@10.0.0.252> On 8/31/2006 at 8:07 AM Nico de Jong wrote: >My customer was so hysterical about throwing things out, that I regularly >had to come and take a disk out of the drive, as it had come out of the >envelope :-) I recall a project that took four people several months and beat its completion deadline. All of the source was stored on a stack of 8" SSSD floppies (ISIS-II on an Intel MDS800). Management was so ecstatic that they had T-shirts printed up and gifted the department with a bunch of (rather cheap) champagne and hors d'oeuvres. Sometime during the evening, some wayward bubbly soaked the stack of floppies and no one noticed until the next day that they were a sticky mess. We removed each cookie from its jacket, washed it off and installed it in a new jacket--and then promptly made some backup copies. No one ever owned up to the spillage. Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Aug 31 15:58:21 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:58:21 -0400 Subject: QIC 80 drive needed In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:57:19 EDT." <005e01c6cd37$aae94ef0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <200608312058.k7VKwLSk009240@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Teo Zenios" wrote: ... >> FWIW, I have an image of A/UX 1.0, made in the days when the only way to >get >> a copy was to go over to Bubb Road with a disc and have the original A/UX >> group clone it for you. heh. I did that too. And whom ever cloned the ended up giving all the sources to a/ux :-) I think I still have them somewhere. It was a/ux 1.0, however, so it's not very interesting. -brad From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Aug 31 16:03:23 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:03:23 -0400 Subject: QIC 80 drive needed References: <200608312058.k7VKwLSk009240@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <00b001c6cd40$e5eb6c50$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Parker" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 4:58 PM Subject: Re: QIC 80 drive needed > > "Teo Zenios" wrote: > ... > >> FWIW, I have an image of A/UX 1.0, made in the days when the only way to > >get > >> a copy was to go over to Bubb Road with a disc and have the original A/UX > >> group clone it for you. > > heh. I did that too. And whom ever cloned the ended up giving all the > sources to a/ux :-) > > I think I still have them somewhere. It was a/ux 1.0, however, so it's > not very interesting. > > -brad I have 2.1 on CD and 2 copies of 3.x that went with the AWS95, just curious on what 1.0 looks like (would have to find a machine to even run it). From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 16:32:42 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 09:32:42 +1200 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) In-Reply-To: <44F73625.93033C39@cs.ubc.ca> References: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> <200608310047.45645.rtellason@verizon.net> <44F66FF2.7040605@jetnet.ab.ca> <44F73625.93033C39@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 9/1/06, Brent Hilpert wrote: > And > http://www.selectric.org/tubeclock/ That is essentially what I had in mind. Thanks for the pointer. -ethan From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 31 17:15:42 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:15:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) Message-ID: <200608312215.k7VMFgZJ036437@keith.ezwind.net> --- M H Stein wrote: > > Well, of course you'd use whatever you like and ru ns > in the OS of your > choice, but it's interesting to note how many peop le > still use a "real" > calculator when there's probably one on the screen > in front of them, > not to mention a spreadsheet program; every office > user I visit still > has a calculator on his/her desk... > Yeah, but it's often hidden. Until a few months ago I had no idea there was a Calculator available on Windows 2K (the company I work for generally uses Windows from 5 years ago as we have loads of computers to pay licenses for?). A work colleague who's into computers (mainly modern stuff, but I did get a twinkle in his eye when I mentioned about the Dragon 32 once and he went on about how he used them at college/university in the 80's) showed me how to find it. It's hidden (along with other applications) in the "sys32/" (?) directory somewhere in the OS files (I'm no windows expert, though I know W95 beta version inside out from when I went on work experience). Now whenever I need it and it's not listed under applications (we move about alot in the lab and use diff computers each week), I just do a quick filesearch, dump it on the desktop and on the main drop-up (?) menu that appears when you click on the Start button, incase I have a screen full of windows. Now almost everyone uses it (largely because calc's are so hard to find in the lab). The "scientific" mode includes binary, octal, hex and decimal, aswell as proper maths functions. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Aug 31 18:06:30 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:06:30 Subject: Question about Z80 ISA bus board In-Reply-To: <44F63858.4030303@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060831180630.0f97b98c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I don't know about this particular board but several companies did build Z-80 boards to fit into a PC an allow you to run CPM. I used to have one made by Baby Blue or some such. Joe At 08:16 PM 8/30/06 -0500, you wrote: >Hope to generate less heat this time. > >Full length ISA card, XT card edge connection, DB 37 male connector, >Z80B, 8 4164's, 2 2764's, 2 Mostek MK4801AN-4's, MC1420B, 10 MHZ >crystal, and a handful of 74LSxxx glue chips. Only identification >lettering is "BETRONIX = SWEDEN=PC84" > > >Anyone have an ideal what it could be? Betronix made circuit board >layout software. > From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 31 17:24:51 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A/UX 1.0 was Re: QIC 80 drive needed In-Reply-To: <00b001c6cd40$e5eb6c50$0b01a8c0@game> from Teo Zenios at "Aug 31, 6 05:03:23 pm" Message-ID: <200608312224.k7VMOpcr017742@floodgap.com> > > I think I still have them somewhere. It was a/ux 1.0, however, so it's > > not very interesting. > I have 2.1 on CD and 2 copies of 3.x that went with the AWS95, just curious > on what 1.0 looks like (would have to find a machine to even run it). I'd be interested in this as well (run 3.x on my IIci right now). -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Make welfare as hard to get as building permits. --------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 31 17:32:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:32:03 -0700 Subject: Question about Z80 ISA bus board In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060831180630.0f97b98c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060831180630.0f97b98c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200608311532030499.0036846F@10.0.0.252> >>Full length ISA card, XT card edge connection, DB 37 male connector, >>Z80B, 8 4164's, 2 2764's, 2 Mostek MK4801AN-4's, MC1420B, 10 MHZ >>crystal, and a handful of 74LSxxx glue chips. Only identification >>lettering is "BETRONIX = SWEDEN=PC84" Have you tried plugging this one into a running PC to see if there are any ROM signon messages displayes? Ultimately, what this thing is may well be revealed by what's in those 2764's. Just a thought... Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 31 17:45:00 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:45:00 -0600 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule)- PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> <200608310047.45645.rtellason@verizon.net> <44F66FF2.7040605@jetnet.ab.ca> <44F73625.93033C39@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <44F7666C.4020406@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/1/06, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> And >> http://www.selectric.org/tubeclock/ > That is essentially what I had in mind. Thanks for the pointer. With the comment about the south pole, on the heating budget for the clock, I found out for some reasion penguincentral.com is down. I was looking for SBC-1620 software and was hopeing to find more about the adventure port. Could a older Z-machine engine be ported to the loveable 8? From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 31 17:58:32 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:58:32 -0700 Subject: A/UX 1.0 Message-ID: > just curious on what 1.0 looks like http://www.aux-penelope.com/AUX_1.0.htm This pre-dates the MAE. From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 31 18:02:32 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:02:32 -0400 Subject: Mercury cells (was e: Sharp PC-1211) In-Reply-To: <20060831180122.29087.qmail@web50503.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060831180122.29087.qmail@web50503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200608311902.32458.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 31 August 2006 02:01 pm, William Blair wrote: > > > > > mercury cells. Today, since they're illegal in the US from what I > > > > > understand, > > > > > > > > Are they? Anybody know for sure? I know they were hard to find last > > > > time I looked (over a decade ago) but there were some out there... >From around January of 1993 to around October of 1995 I ran (managed) a retail battery store. There was some demand for these, but not a whole lot. And at one point in time we were actually able to get some, but it wasn't a consistent thing, and I don't know what the situation has been since then, as I'm no longer in that business and haven't been since those days. Which is why I asked. > > > In 1995, I was unable to buy mercury cells for my Konica 35mm SLR. I > > > _was_ able to find a set at a store in Christchurch, NZ. Dunno if they > > > are still legal there or not. > > > > Yes, according to Camera & Camera (big local camera store in Auckland) > > they're still legal and available here (NZ). > > They can no longer be sold in the US because of their mercury content. > However, when I was investigating some time ago if there were any > compatible substitutes for the mercury cell used in the metering system of > an old Yashicamat 124 medium format camera I owned, the use of type AC675E > zinc-air cells was recommended. Someone made an adapter/holder for these > modern cells which was the same form factor as the old mercury cells and > intended for camera owners in this situation. This might give you a lead on > where to look. We didn't do much with zinc-air cells either, most of the smaller button types we handled being lithium, silver oxide, and alkaline. My recollection is that zinc-air cells showed up as "hearing aid batteries" pretty often, so it's quite possible that they would be found in drug stores, though I can't say this for certain with the particular number mentioned here. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 31 18:03:36 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:03:36 -0400 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) In-Reply-To: <200608310827.JAA19962@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200608310827.JAA19962@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <200608311903.36801.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 31 August 2006 04:27 am, Stan Barr wrote: > Roy J. Tellason said: > > Anybody having any vacuum tubes they don't want, I might be interested. > > I can't offer much of anything for them, but if they're gonna get > > tossed... > > Just for informational purposes: 12AU7s (and 12AX7 and 12AT7) are still > available new. You probably won't like the price, but they're still in > production - us electric guitar players use them, Along with 6L6 and maybe 5U4 and some other numbers for output tubes, no doubt. To get that "Marshall sound"... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 31 18:14:27 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:14:27 -0400 Subject: Vacuuum tube digital circuits (50 year rule) In-Reply-To: <005501c6cd2a$c95d6720$0200a8c0@p2deskto> References: <001801c6ccb0$034c4bc0$6601a8c0@downstairs2> <005501c6cd2a$c95d6720$0200a8c0@p2deskto> Message-ID: <200608311914.27931.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 31 August 2006 02:25 pm, Jim Beacon wrote: > From: "Ethan Dicks" > > > On 8/31/06, woodelf wrote: > > > The ads list a 12au7 for about 65 cents in 1955. In 2006 a generic > > > 12au7 is about $8.00. I suspect a better deal now than 50 years ago. > > > > Hmm... if I leave off seconds and just go with minutes/hours, I think > > I have enough. Even with modern wages, a bag full of tubes costs > > enough to make me want to simplify the design. > > > > The real trick, now, I guess, is how to take 60Hz mains and clock it > > down to 1/60Hz with 1955 technology. > > > > -ethan > > Thyratron divider circuits. > > http://www.g1jbg.co.uk/thyratro.htm > > Divide by any integer, using around 6 components (the practical division > limit is around 6, but I've made them work as a divide by ten). Not necessary to use those, you can do pretty much the same sort of thing with any relaxation oscillator. My shot at doing it in this gear would be to use neon bulbs. I have an early 1970s "Chro-Bar" signal generator that uses this principle for frequency dividers, only they use unijunction transistors, three stages of them, and three trimpots in the back to tweak because it's damn temperature sensitive. Oh yeah, and it'd run off a "VS-133" _Mercury_ cell if I could find one. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 31 18:17:33 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:17:33 -0400 Subject: Pentium for Non-PC (Was Statement & apology (was Re: 10 year whine fest) In-Reply-To: References: <200608310014.k7V0EKeX077368@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200608302357.58136.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608311917.33556.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 31 August 2006 02:56 pm, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >>> Wasn't that "The Connection Machine"? > >> > >> Nope. Connection Machines were made by Thinking Machines, Inc., and > >> they don't use Pentiums. They use gobs (up to something like 16k) of > >> proprietary processors. > > > > I'm vaguely remembering something about what chip that was, but now I > > can't remember what it was called. Ah, would that have been the > > "transputer", maybe? > > No, transputers are 16 or 32 bit RISC chips, some with 64 bit IEEE > floating point either in hardware or emulated via microcoded instructions. > > Their best features are: 4 async 2-pair 5, 10 or 20MHz full duplex > communication links on die, a minimal ammount of RAM on die, and the > ability to be booted and debugged over any of the 4 links. Thus, you can > build a parallel "computing surface" with just the transputer chips plus > power and clock sources. They also have a fairly flexible RAM/ROM > interface, but it's entirely optional. Finally, the whole family is > machine language compatible (later members only extended the instruction > set). In theory this let you mix family members in a machine, but > unfortunately there was no "what family member am I running on" > instruction. Which makes me wonder what would happen if you fed it an extended instruction that it didn't know how to deal with. I dunno, maybe they were just out in roughly the same time frame, or maybe I've just got such a cluttered brain that it's all running together lately... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Aug 31 18:07:36 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:07:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule) In-Reply-To: "Hans Franke" "Re: Statement & apology (was Re: 10 Year Rule)" (Aug 31, 12:34) References: <200608301341.53175.rtellason@verizon.net> <44F6D764.23212.57E38002@localhost> Message-ID: <10609010007.ZM12931@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Aug 31 2006, 12:34, Hans Franke wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Interesting question. I know that the last time I was paying attention to > > that area, embedded systems were starting to use 386 chips. And my Tek > > scope has an 8088 in it... > > After all, it doesn't doesn't realy matter what CPU is used, as > long as it does it's job as a black box controll system. > > But yeah, Pentiums (and alikes) are already the base for most new > embedded developments. "Most"? I don't think so. 2 billion ARM/XScale cores licensed in the last 12 months, and about a quarter that number of MIPS chips/cores. Pentiums don't even come close. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Aug 31 18:31:56 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:31:56 -0500 Subject: looking for Darwin USIIi module (pushing OT) Message-ID: O.K. - this is pushing it alot, but I'd rather buy from someone I know than an e-bay unknown. I'm looking for an UltraSPARC IIi module for Sun Darwin boards (Ultra 5/10), 333MHz or 360MHz. Thought someone might have upgraded and have one in their junk box. $9+ shipping for 333, perhaps more for a 360? Scott From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 31 18:58:45 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Calculators on desktops (was Re: Octal) In-Reply-To: <200608312215.k7VMFgZJ036437@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200608312215.k7VMFgZJ036437@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20060831164809.Y89894@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Yeah, but it's often hidden. Not by default. If it has been hidden, it is because somebody explicitly and deliberately was trying to keep you away from it. Without user intervention Win2K installations will have it in accessories. > Until a few months ago I had no idea there > was a Calculator available on Windows 2K > (the company I work for generally uses > Windows from 5 years ago as we have loads > of computers to pay licenses for?). ALL Windoze versions from 3.0 on (and possibly before) have a calculator. Sometime, on Windoze 3.10 or 3.11 (Windoze for Workgroups), use that calculator to subtract 3.10 from 3.11 to see what the Windoze differences are. > It's hidden (along with other applications) in > the "sys32/" (?) directory somewhere in the > OS files (I'm no windows expert, though I > know W95 beta version inside out from when > I went on work experience). Only hidden, if somebody has deliberately chosen to remove it from the Start/Programs/Accessories menu. > Now whenever I need it and it's not listed > under applications (we move about alot in the > lab and use diff computers each week), I just > do a quick filesearch, dump it on the desktop > and on the main drop-up (?) menu that appears > when you click on the Start button, incase > I have a screen full of windows. > Now almost everyone uses it (largely because > calc's are so hard to find in the lab). WHY BOTHER?? Go to Start/Run and type Calc. or Go to the command line, and type Calc. > The "scientific" mode includes binary, octal, > hex and decimal, aswell as proper maths > functions. Yes, but it refuses to do anything but integers in anything other than decimal! 3.0h/2.0h gives 1.8h, NOT 1.0 11 binary/10 binary is 1.1 binary, NOT 1 3.14159decimal is NOT 3h. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 31 18:09:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:09:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <200608302309.k7UN9lCx093273@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Aug 30, 6 06:09:47 pm Message-ID: > > > Hi, > > Someones signiture (the "real programmers > get confused as Oct 31 = Dec 25") reminded > me about Octal. > > I have heard of it, and know it's still used > on the Calculator program on Windoze (2K), And on many of my HP calculators. > on the computers at work, but unlike Hex, > Dec and Binary I have no idea what it could > be used for, and why it would still be used > today. Anyone care to fill in the gaps, please? Here goes... As I am sure you know, octal is simply base 8 notation. And (most) computers use a binary code internally. The problem with binary for humans, though, is the long strings of digits that are involved -- think of writing down 32 0's and 1's for a longoword, and being sure you've not missed one, or got them in the wrong order. Now, since 8 is a power of 2 (=2^3), it's very easy to convert between octal and binary. You know how to convert a binary number to hex, right, by spliting the digits up into groups of 4 and converting each block of 4 bitd to hex. Well, you can do the same to convert a binary number to octal, just split the digits up in groups of 3. For example, consider 10101111. To conver to hex, split it up into 4 bit groups 1010 1111 Convert each group 1010 -> A 1111 -> F So the hex equivalent is AF Now to convert it into octal, split it into groups of 3 bits 10 101 111 Convert each group 10 -> 2 101 -> 5 111 -> 7 So it's 257 in octal. Advantage of octal (over hex) include : You only need the digits 0-7. At one time there was considerable resistance to using letters as digits, a second-hand book I bought last week thinkks it's most unsatisfactory to do this. Some machine codes (PDP8, PDP11, and to a lesser extent 8080) are easier for humas to decode if written in octal. For example, the PDP11 instruction to copy R1 into R2 is (IIRC) 010102 in octal. You can decode that by hand -- from the left 01 -> It's a move 0 -> Source addressing mode = register (not indirect or indexed, or...) 1 -> Source register = R1 0 -> Destination addressing mode = register 2 -> Sestination regstier =R2 Since the addressing mode and register select fields are all 3 bits long, they correspond to individual octal digits in the octal form of the instruction,. If you wrote it in hex, you'd not be able to pick out the fields so quickly. Disadvantage to octal over hex include ; The numbers are longer (a 16 bit word takes 6 octal digits but only 4 hex digits) Word lengths tend not to be multiples of 3 bits. This means, for example you can't easily split 16 bit word into bytes, or combine 2 bytes into a word when you write them in Octal. In hex it's trivial. There were various split octal notations where you convert each part separately, but they get confusing fast. But basically it's just another way of writing numbers which is useful sometiimes (particularly if 'you're misisng 2 fingers' as Tom Lehrer put it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 31 18:15:37 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:15:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <44F628D7.1000606@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Aug 30, 6 06:09:59 pm Message-ID: > Did any of the classic computers display in octal 0-7 > rather than 3 lights per digit? Also what was the display > device? Sure did. The obvious example is the PDP11/34 front panel, which used 7-segment LED displays. I am pretty sure the PDP8/a used the same sort of display. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 31 17:48:55 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:48:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: <200608301525310187.01658438@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 30, 6 03:25:31 pm Message-ID: > > On 8/30/2006 at 10:35 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >Early 3.5" disks had a manual shutter, you had to slide it open before > >inserting the disk in the drive, and squeeze the corner of the disk to > >close it after ejecting the disk. Drives designed for those disks only > >couldn't take the now-standard disks with automatic shutters because they > >lacked the lever to open the shutter. > > Was this universal? My Sony 2/3 height drive (40 cylinder, single side) > will accept the shuttered disks just fine and it's about as early a 3.5" > drive as one can find. HP used the 80 cylinder versions of those drives, I think, from the very start. They were certainly Sony mechanisms (and turned at 600rpm). The HP service manual for the drive (actually, mostly a boardswapper guide, and nowhere near as good on the mechanism as the Sony manuals) says that early drives will not open the shutter on automatic disks, and that there's a modification kit available to let them do so. Alas it simply says that 'fitting instructions are included with the kit' -- they are not also given in the service manual. I asusme the modification originated from Sony Is it possible your drive has had the update kit fitted? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 31 17:53:16 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:53:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sharp PC-1211 In-Reply-To: <44F6174B.4080109@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at Aug 30, 6 11:55:07 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > [2] Unlike the Pentax Spotmatic where the correct exposure point is > > slightly off-balance (the service manual gives a certain current to be > > flowing through the galvaometer coil to get it to the 0 marker). %deity > > knows why it was done this way.... > > So that a dead battery could never give a "correct exposure" indication? That's the normally-given reason, sure, but I don't really believe it. Any photogrrpaher who sees the needle is escactly on the 'correct exposure' mark is going to twidle the conttols just to make sure. And equally, he'll move the camera about a bit to take reading from different parts of the subject. No, I think this is a cover-up for a bit of misdesign... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 31 18:21:40 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:21:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: A tree to grow In-Reply-To: <200608310018.k7V0Ihji016748@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Aug 30, 6 05:18:43 pm Message-ID: > Do you see a common thread to the complaints here? No one seems to be > saying that the "10 year rule" is perfect. What people are complaining > about is a nebulous statement that the "10 year rule" is dead, and that this > list is for discussing "Classic" computers. It is obvious to anyone what > the "10 year rule" meant. I don't see where anyone is clear what "Classic" > means. At last! Somebody has got the point. To be honest, I didn't much care for the 10 year rule, but it had the great advantage it was unambiguous. A computing machine over 10 years old was on-topic, one younger than that was off topic. Simple. Now I have no idea what a classic computer is now defined as. It may well mean different things to different people. I am sure there are machines that everyone here will think of as classics (let's say the original straight-8). There are others that are more boderline. I am seriously considering unsubscribing over this. Not because of the noise on the list. Not because I have any particular love of the 10-year-rule (or any other date-related rule). But because I now have no idea what this list is actually supposed to be talking about. And there seems little point in remaining on such a list. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 31 18:25:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:25:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <200608301732110838.0055C38E@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 30, 6 05:32:11 pm Message-ID: > > Is a Heath H8 classic? Well, I would think so, but since nobody has given a definition of 'classic', I can't bne sure. Heck, I don't even know if a CDC3300 is classic. > > Before that, there were many. Nixie tube displays were popular on, say, > the CDC 3300. Obviously you can use 'decimal' nixie tubes to display in octal (just ingore the 8 and 9 cathodes. Did anyone ever make hexadeximal nixie tubes with 16 cathodes of the appropriate shapes? I've not seen them in the databooks. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 31 18:26:30 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:26:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: from "Billy Pettit" at Aug 30, 6 05:37:30 pm Message-ID: > > Here's a question for the list - how many still have and use the TI > calculator that could be used in octal or hex? TI??? No, but there's an HP16C on my workbench (as a tool, not being repaired). Does that count? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 31 18:39:36 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:39:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <200608310141.k7V1fq48005867@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Aug 30, 6 09:41:52 pm Message-ID: > if the 16c ever dies i'll be lost. and looking on ebay :-) Well, it's sort-of a computer, and I think it's a classic, so here goes... I've had a lot of trouble in Voyager series calculators (HP10C, 11C, 12C, 15C, 16C) with dry joint,s particularly on the second version with everything on one PCB (as opposed to a logic/display module with the ICs on a flexible PCB which connects to the keyboard via a zebrastrip). I've brought a number back to life by resoldering the ICs. The 2 ICs are the NUT (processor and keyboard interface) which is a modified version of the CPU in an HP41 (the same datasheet seems to cover both). That's the smalelr of the 2 chips. The larger one is called R2D2, stabding for ROM/RAM/Display Driver. The Nut is the same in all Voyagers (apart from very late 12Cs, which are very different inside), the R2D2 is specific to the model (it contains the ROM code that implements the functions of that model). I assume you know the case screws are under the stick-on feet. Let me know if you ever need to repair it. I've got more information that I can't easily post to the list. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 31 18:42:30 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:42:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: C64 Packet carts In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036161@MEOW.catcorner.org> from "Kelly Leavitt" at Aug 30, 6 10:34:08 pm Message-ID: > > > Actually, one reason I've never got into packet radio is a lack of > > information one the internals of the TNC. I've not found an > > 'open' one -- > > as in published schematics and ROM source listings. > try www.tapr.org TNC1 comes with rom listings and schematics. Maybe it > is missing something... Thanks, I will take a look. That's the problem with the web, there's a lot of information out there, it's just finding it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 31 18:44:50 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:44:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: C64 Packet carts In-Reply-To: <200608302300.52036.vax@purdue.edu> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Aug 30, 6 11:00:51 pm Message-ID: > Also, in the US, we're a bit farther along than using ham radio only for > sending morse code... I'm not sure where that came from, but in the UK, you can end up with a full HF transmitting license without ever doing Morse. > Well, there's a software-based packet radio module in the Linux kernel. Sure, it's written in C, and if yoy think a non-progammer like me is going to attempt to translate that into a microcontroller machine code, you must be joking :-) > > There's some details about it in the AX25-HOWTO: > http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/text/AX25-HOWTO > > Perhaps you could use that to figure it out. ;) I do have the AX25 documents somewhere... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 31 18:48:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:48:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <44F65B53.3000108@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Aug 30, 6 09:45:23 pm Message-ID: > > I've found the Windows Calculator to be the most convenient > > (nicer keyboard & display and doesn't take any desk space). > > mike > I find computer calculator programs a pain. I can't see the point of them myself. If I've got a computer, I'll program it like a computer. If I want a calculator, I'll pull one out of my pocket. Most of what I do is not done at a desk or a fixed workbench... > In fact it is hard to find a good calculator - read > nice display -- good keyboard. You don't find that > with the $5 calculator market. What you mean is 'it's hard to find one _new_'. It's very easy to find calculators with decent displays (LED or LCD), great keyboards, and useful functions round here. Thing is, they're all made by HP, and they're all at least 20 years old. -tony From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Aug 31 19:38:32 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:38:32 -0400 Subject: Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986 In-Reply-To: <200609010022.k810MX0v001652@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000d01c6cd5e$f3ddff30$6600a8c0@barry> Re: "I wouldn't scan (especially post!) them as JPEG images. I'd suggest that you do this the way that Al Kossow does with Bitsavers docs - scan as a 1bpp TIFF" I absolutely disagree with this. These are not product manuals. They are magazines. Much of the interest is in the advertisements. Photos in the magazine are in color. I've been doing a lot of exactly this type of work (40,000+ pages worth) and the right way to do it is to create an Adobe Acrobat PDF file, but the scans should, in my opinion, be color JPEGs for pages with color, and 256 shades of gray grayscale for pages that have no color at all. All scanned at 300 dpi, unless there is a specific reason to scan at a higher resolution. As to the original post, I don't think it's inherently wrong to destroy the magazines for scanning, and they are not all that rare, but neither are they all that commonplace (I have a complete set from the first issue to sometime in the mid 1980's). As to copyrights, they are copyrighted, the copyrights are still valid, the owner (McGraw Hill) still exists and might or might not object (much depends on what is done with them). However, the most likely outcome even if they do object is that they send you a letter asking you to take them down and cease distribution. I can't imagine an actual action against anyone who complies with such a request. By the way, if you do scan them, I'd like very much to have them. -Barry Watzman From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Aug 31 19:45:50 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:45:50 -0500 Subject: Need 8 Bit VGA for PC XT 5160 Message-ID: <44F782BE.6070909@brutman.com> I have a beautiful 5160 XT with 512KB, 10MB hard disk, monochrome card and a 5151 display. To make the machine slightly more useful I'd like to find a VGA card that will run in an 8 bit slot. CGA would be more original, but I can't fit another monitor in the office. I can connect the XT to my 20" flat panels through their VGA connectors, which is perverse in a way but it will work ... That way I have room for the 5151 as well. If you have such a beast or can at least tell me what to look for I'd appreciate it. I read the list religiously, but replies that are not interesting to everybody else should go to me off-list. Mike http://www.brutman.com/PCjr PS: I've got a 3COM Etherlink II (3C503) and software ready to go .. this baby is going on IBM's internal network! :-) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Aug 31 19:47:50 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:47:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: A tree to grow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200609010052.UAA22817@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I am seriously considering unsubscribing over this. Not because of > [...]. Not because [...]. But because I now have no idea what this > list is actually supposed to be talking about. Well, I certainly will not claim to speak for Jay on this point. But to the extent I have understood things correctly, the list is now supposed to be talking about what it always has been talking about. All that's changing here is the favoured way of approximating that in short summaries of the list topic. The 10-year "rule" was one approximation to the list topic. "Classic" is another. Each captures some of it; neither is perfect. If it bothers you all that much to be on a list whose topic boundaries are not absolutely cut-and-dried, well, maybe you will have to leave. But I hope you'll be able to see your way clear to tolerating a bit of fuzziness on that point, for I would really hate to see you go. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 31 20:11:01 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:11:01 -0500 Subject: A tree to grow References: Message-ID: <002501c6cd63$81fd5f00$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote.... > To be honest, I didn't much care for the 10 year rule, In that case, I sure would have appreciated more input from you when the definition was being discussed. Was there any reason you didn't provide some help to come up with something better than the 10 year rule if you didn't care that much for it? Help from you would have been awesome! But I am glad to hear that yet another person finds the 10 year rule problematic. > I am seriously considering unsubscribing over this. Not because of the > noise on the list. Not because I have any particular love of the > 10-year-rule (or any other date-related rule). But because I now have no > idea what this list is actually supposed to be talking about. And there > seems little point in remaining on such a list. So your reason for unsubbing would be because you don't understand what this list is talking about? Sure, there's some argument about the finer details and probably the definition needs tweaking. But I seriously doubt that people (and you) honestly don't know what this list is about. I'm sure I and others on the list would like to get your help in the definition instead of you just saying "I don't understand it, so I'm leaving". Jay From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 31 20:13:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:13:19 -0700 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608311813190833.00CA2A9D@10.0.0.252> On 9/1/2006 at 12:25 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Obviously you can use 'decimal' nixie tubes to display in octal (just >ingore the 8 and 9 cathodes. Did anyone ever make hexadeximal nixie tubes >with 16 cathodes of the appropriate shapes? I've not seen them in the >databooks. I've never seen one either. I wonder if it's a limitation of the geometry where it's just not possible to pack 16 alphanumerics into a bottle without too many things being obscured by the electrodes. AFAIK, the only fully alphanumeric nixies were the 13 segment varieties. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 31 20:21:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:21:16 -0700 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608311821160558.00D170D2@10.0.0.252> On 9/1/2006 at 12:39 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Let me know if you ever need to repair it. I've got more information that >I can't easily post to the list. About the only thing I'd like to repair on it are a couple of dents in the aluminum display bezel. It must be glued on, because I can see that one corner of mine is starting to lift away. If I could get the bezel off without destroying it, I could at least burnish the dents out and re-attach it. Otherwise, my 16C has been "old reliable"--and one of the few calculators that has no problem handing the full product of 2 64-bit numbers. Try that on your TI Programmer. Cheers, Chuck From bob099 at centurytel.net Thu Aug 31 20:26:23 2006 From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Choctaw Bob) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:26:23 -0500 Subject: Question about Z80 ISA bus board In-Reply-To: <200609010121.k811L7JL002948@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200609010121.k811L7JL002948@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <44F78C3F.6040201@centurytel.net> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:06:30 >From: "Joe R." >Subject: Re: Question about Z80 ISA bus board >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060831180630.0f97b98c at pop-server.cfl.rr.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I don't know about this particular board but several companies did build >Z-80 boards to fit into a PC an allow you to run CPM. I used to have one >made by Baby Blue or some such. > > Joe > > >At 08:16 PM 8/30/06 -0500, you wrote: > > >>Hope to generate less heat this time. >> >>Full length ISA card, XT card edge connection, DB 37 male connector, >>Z80B, 8 4164's, 2 2764's, 2 Mostek MK4801AN-4's, MC1420B, 10 MHZ >>crystal, and a handful of 74LSxxx glue chips. Only identification >>lettering is "BETRONIX = SWEDEN=PC84" >> >> >>Anyone have an ideal what it could be? Betronix made circuit board >>layout software. >> >> >> Looks like my choice is to dig up an ISA bus machine and plug it in and see what happens. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 31 20:35:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:35:38 -0700 Subject: Need 8 Bit VGA for PC XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <44F782BE.6070909@brutman.com> References: <44F782BE.6070909@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200608311835380853.00DE971B@10.0.0.252> On 8/31/2006 at 7:45 PM Michael B. Brutman wrote: >If you have such a beast or can at least tell me what to look for I'd >appreciate it. I read the list religiously, but replies that are not >interesting to everybody else should go to me off-list. Oh, Paradise and Video7 are two that come to mind right off. There are many others. However, don't let the "8 bit ISA" thing discourage you from trying 16-bit ISA cards in your 5160. Many can function in either 8 or 16 bit mode. To make sure that I'm not shoveling smoke, I just took a generic 16-bit Tsenglabs TS-4000 16-bit card and plugged it into an XT clone. Works just fine. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 31 20:37:39 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:37:39 -0400 Subject: more found boards Message-ID: <200608312137.39851.rtellason@verizon.net> Well, I didn't find the 8-bit VGA card that another list member was looking for, but did find some other stuff. Maybe some of you folks could help me figure out what I have here and what it might be good for, or even help relieve me of some of it... Got one 8-bit card here that also has an internal edge connector and I'm guessing it's a floppy interface -- there's a crystal, one big chip labeled Zilog Z765APS and what I'm guessing is a data separator chip socketed, looks like UM8326, and a bunch of LSTTL glue logic. Got one which is an 8-bit card only there's a little sticker near the card edge connector that says "pls plug into the 16 bits slot only" -- why would they do that? This one has a DB25M on the metal bracket, which is also labeled "Scanner Interface", is this supposed to be some kind of crude SCSI? There are a couple of chips labeled "SPOT" (a logo actually), and silkscreened on the board it says "SPOT Fototak 2E-Card". The note on the bag says "Parallel port" but I'm not sure that means anything. About four chips on the board (2 of which look like RAM) and a jumper block, 2x3 with 2 on there. The next one is labeled (in the foil) "ICS2110 Demo Board Rev. A" and sure enough there seems to be a square socketed chip labeled ICS2110 in there. An array of eight of what I'm guessing are RAM, some LSTTL, two 8-pole DIP switches, and four jumper blocks with one jumper on each. A TDA1545 ("Stereo Continuous Calibration DAC"), a couple of NE5532 op amp chips, a whole mess of capacitors, two trimpots (?) and two of what appear to be audio jacks at the metal bracket. This one's a 16-bit card. The last one is also a 16-bit card. On the metal brack is a 50-pin connector (same thing you'd see on an Adaptec 1520, 1540, etc.) and on the opposite end is a 4-pin "drive power" (like in any PC) connector for power to apparently be supplied_to_ the card, a small button ("tac" switch), and a 2x5 pin shrouded connector. And across the top of the card is a big 2.4 ohm 10W (!) power resistor, not the sort of thing I'm used to seeing on "PC" hardware. This one's all surface mount, and the one square chip in there is marked "Altera", not a name I'm at all familiar with. No other markings on the board except a sticker hiding under that big resistor with a barcode and a rather long number on it. Anybody know what these are, any of them? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 31 20:37:53 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:37:53 -0700 Subject: Floppy disk sizes ( was Re: Compaq Portable III fails POST? ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608311837530116.00E0A393@10.0.0.252> On 8/31/2006 at 11:48 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Is it possible your drive has had the update kit fitted? Since I can't vouch for the provenance of the particular drive, I'd have to say that yes, it's possible. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 31 20:40:54 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:40:54 -0400 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <200608311813190833.00CA2A9D@10.0.0.252> References: <200608311813190833.00CA2A9D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608312140.54426.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 31 August 2006 09:13 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/1/2006 at 12:25 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > >Obviously you can use 'decimal' nixie tubes to display in octal (just > >ingore the 8 and 9 cathodes. Did anyone ever make hexadeximal nixie tubes > >with 16 cathodes of the appropriate shapes? I've not seen them in the > >databooks. > > I've never seen one either. I wonder if it's a limitation of the geometry > where it's just not possible to pack 16 alphanumerics into a bottle without > too many things being obscured by the electrodes. AFAIK, the only fully > alphanumeric nixies were the 13 segment varieties. I don't remember counting them, but the only ones I saw that would display alphanumerics were also segmented, as you describe here. On display and lit up in some store that was on Canal St. in NYC years ago, they sure aren't there any more. But segmented displays aren't always the best choice. If you have a display where that last digit is reading "4" and it occasionally bobbles to 3 or 5, a Nixie will show you this by the relative brightness of those electrodes, while a 7-segment display will show you "8"... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Aug 31 20:41:45 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:41:45 -0700 Subject: Octal Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: You only need the digits 0-7. At one time there was considerable resistance to using letters as digits, a second-hand book I bought last week thinkks it's most unsatisfactory to do this. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Billy: This brings up a question I had for the group. In the early '60's, hex was not very popular. And it hadn't become a standard to use A-F. I worked on one hex machine that used lower case i,j,k,l,m,n and another that used upper case U, V, W, X, Y, and Z. Does anyone remember using any other notations? There must have been many more. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Tony Duell wrote: Word lengths tend not to be multiples of 3 bits. This means, for example you can't easily split 16 bit word into bytes, or combine 2 bytes into a word when you write them in Octal. In hex it's trivial. There were various split octal notations where you convert each part separately, but they get confusing fast. But basically it's just another way of writing numbers which is useful sometiimes (particularly if 'you're misisng 2 fingers' as Tom Lehrer put it. -tony ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------- Billy: I took a C class many years back where the instructor started out with the statement that all computers use word sizes that are multiples of 8 bits. I couldn't help laughing. After class, I explained to her why and described the G-15, RPC-4000, etc. I feel a little that way now on the discussion of octal - how soon we forget. I want to mention to Tony that I've worked on computers for 40+ years that were multiples of 3. And at one time, they were the biggest and the fastest in the world. The CDC 1604, and 3400, 3600, and 3800 were 48 bits. The 924, 3100, 3200, 3300, and 3500 were 24 bits. The 140, 160, 160-A and 8090 were 12 bits. (The 160-G was 13 bits, but every family has one. Besides it was still an octal machine.) And of course, all the 6600 and 7600 machines were 60 bits. For 20 years, these machines dominated the large computer market place. All of these systems were octal oriented. Hex was never brought up in polite company. Then there's the DEC systems of 12 and 18 bits. And many others (3x bit) among the "7 Dwarves". Octal was widely used for the first two generations of computing. Hex is a Johnny-come-lately, with the prime populizar being the IBM 360. I've often wondered why dentists didn't use octal/hex to number teeth? 32 for a complete set, divided into 4 quadrants of 8. Billy From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 31 20:42:29 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:42:29 -0400 Subject: Need 8 Bit VGA for PC XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <200608311835380853.00DE971B@10.0.0.252> References: <44F782BE.6070909@brutman.com> <200608311835380853.00DE971B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608312142.29370.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 31 August 2006 09:35 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/31/2006 at 7:45 PM Michael B. Brutman wrote: > >If you have such a beast or can at least tell me what to look for I'd > >appreciate it. I read the list religiously, but replies that are not > >interesting to everybody else should go to me off-list. > > Oh, Paradise and Video7 are two that come to mind right off. There are > many others. > > However, don't let the "8 bit ISA" thing discourage you from trying 16-bit > ISA cards in your 5160. Many can function in either 8 or 16 bit mode. To > make sure that I'm not shoveling smoke, I just took a generic 16-bit > Tsenglabs TS-4000 16-bit card and plugged it into an XT clone. Works just > fine. Interesting! And I had heard that before but forgot it... Some 8-bit MBs had stuff that would get in the way of doing this, though. If anybody needs some I *do* have a 16-bit VGA card or two that I don't expect to be needing any time soon. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Aug 31 20:57:16 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:57:16 -0500 Subject: Need 8 Bit VGA for PC XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <200608312142.29370.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <005801c6cd69$f3df84d0$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> *snip* > Some 8-bit MBs had stuff that would get in the way of doing > this, though. Literally too, not just figuratively Usually in the form of a chip :( This sounds a lot like what I did with my 5155, except that I didn't go so far as VGA. It has: 1.44MB floppy drive AST RAMpage/2 card with 2MB RAM ATI EGA Wonder hooked to internal display - this is the only card that will work with the internal 5155 display. One hell of a tough thing to track down. Seagate ST02 connected to 9GB Seagate SCSI hard disk AdLib Music Synthesizer card On top of all this I've managed to make it look fairly stock and found a proper drive mounting kit for it to make a 3.5" hard disk drive work in a 5.25" bay with the black bezel. The 3.5" floppy drive was a lot easier. I spent a LOT of time working on this box, so I'm really proud of it. I did the 256K to 640K mod, swapped in a V20 chip too. Of course, I made the mistake of bringing it to VCFMW and putting it next to a PDP11, so it got largely ignored. Oh well :p From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Aug 31 20:55:19 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:55:19 -0400 Subject: Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986 In-Reply-To: <000d01c6cd5e$f3ddff30$6600a8c0@barry> References: <000d01c6cd5e$f3ddff30$6600a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <200608312155.19603.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 31 August 2006 20:38, Barry Watzman wrote: > Re: "I wouldn't scan (especially post!) them as JPEG images. I'd suggest > that you do this the way that Al Kossow does with Bitsavers docs - scan as > a > > 1bpp TIFF" > > I absolutely disagree with this. Ok. You aparently missed the point where I said "scan the parts which matter in color". > These are not product manuals. They are magazines. Much of the interest > is in the advertisements. Photos in the magazine are in color. I've been > doing a lot of exactly this type of work (40,000+ pages worth) and the > right way to do it is to create an Adobe Acrobat PDF file, but the scans > should, in my opinion, be color JPEGs for pages with color, and 256 shades > of gray grayscale for pages that have no color at all. All scanned at 300 > dpi, unless there is a specific reason to scan at a higher resolution. Amazingly enough, I actually care more about the articles than the adverts in old magazines - partly because most of the stuff can't be purchased anymore. In fact, every time I've seen someone ask about a magazine on here, they were asking for an article, not asking about ads in it. > As to the original post, I don't think it's inherently wrong to destroy the > magazines for scanning, and they are not all that rare, but neither are > they all that commonplace (I have a complete set from the first issue to > sometime in the mid 1980's). As to copyrights, they are copyrighted, the > copyrights are still valid, the owner (McGraw Hill) still exists and might > or might not object (much depends on what is done with them). However, the > most likely outcome even if they do object is that they send you a letter > asking you to take them down and cease distribution. I can't imagine an > actual action against anyone who complies with such a request. I generally like to follow the "it's better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission" rule, unless I'm friends with the person involved, or am fairly sure they'll say "yes". Of course, if it's obvious they'll say "no", I try to avoid putting myself in a bad place... (eg, distributing copies of things that you can still buy copies of) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 20:57:36 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:57:36 -0400 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: <200608312140.54426.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608311813190833.00CA2A9D@10.0.0.252> <200608312140.54426.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > I don't remember counting them, but the only ones I saw that would display > alphanumerics were also segmented, as you describe here. A few years back I bought out the basement of an old Burroughs ECD guy, and I seem to remember seeing something about hex Nixies. In the zillions of Nixies I got out of there, none were hex, although there were many real oddballs in the bunch (Pixies, dual numeral, symbols). Who knows - perhaps hex Nixies never got out of the lab. > But segmented displays aren't always the best choice. If you have a display > where that last digit is reading "4" and it occasionally bobbles to 3 or 5, > a Nixie will show you this by the relative brightness of those electrodes, > while a 7-segment display will show you "8"... Seven segment displays are also ergonomic disasters - the military found it is far easier to read a seven segment display incorrectly than just about every other method. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 31 21:00:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:00:48 -0700 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608311900480874.00F5A1A1@10.0.0.252> On 8/31/2006 at 6:41 PM Billy Pettit wrote: >Does anyone remember using any other notations? There must have been many >more. Bendix used U-Z. For a very "classic" (or is it "antique") base-16 numbering system, check out the 1863 proposal by John Nystrom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_W._Nystrom I'd heard that the "proper" Latin form of the word was "sexadecimal", but that IBM wouldn't hear of using any concept that started with "sex", so they substituted the Greek hex-. Thus "hexadecimal" is really a macaronism, having a Greek first part and a Latin second part. Cheers, Chuck From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 21:01:53 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:01:53 -0400 Subject: Need 8 Bit VGA for PC XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <200608311835380853.00DE971B@10.0.0.252> References: <44F782BE.6070909@brutman.com> <200608311835380853.00DE971B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 8/31/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > However, don't let the "8 bit ISA" thing discourage you from trying 16-bit > ISA cards in your 5160. Many can function in either 8 or 16 bit mode. To > make sure that I'm not shoveling smoke, I just took a generic 16-bit > Tsenglabs TS-4000 16-bit card and plugged it into an XT clone. Works just > fine. Interesting. Once I had two VGA cards, maybe Paradise brand. One is 16 bit and one is 8 bit, but they have the same layout and the same chip set. The only difference is that the 16 bit card has two EPROMs and the 8 bit card has one. The maker just changed the BIOS memory width from 8 bit to 16 bit, and a 8 bit VGA card magically turnedd into 16 bit. vax, 9000 Cheers, > Chuck > > > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Aug 31 21:09:13 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:09:13 -0400 Subject: Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986 References: <000d01c6cd5e$f3ddff30$6600a8c0@barry> <200608312155.19603.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <012101c6cd6b$9f4ac4f0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Finnegan" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 9:55 PM Subject: Re: Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986 > Amazingly enough, I actually care more about the articles than the adverts in > old magazines - partly because most of the stuff can't be purchased anymore. > > In fact, every time I've seen someone ask about a magazine on here, they were > asking for an article, not asking about ads in it. > I snagged a bunch of MacWorld and MacUser magazines from a list member a while ago, I got them for both the advertisements and the articles. I like collecting Nubus cards and accelerators and the advertisements give me a good idea of what was out there over the years (same with software). There is very little information on items from companies that died out was before the WWW was popular so magazines of the era are a good way to see what was being sold (and it is amusing to see the list prices of some of the items). From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 31 21:33:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:33:45 -0700 Subject: Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986 In-Reply-To: <200608312155.19603.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <000d01c6cd5e$f3ddff30$6600a8c0@barry> <200608312155.19603.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200608311933450517.0113CAE3@10.0.0.252> On 8/31/2006 at 9:55 PM Patrick Finnegan wrote: >I generally like to follow the "it's better to ask for forgiveness than to >ask for permission" rule, unless I'm friends with the person involved, or am >fairly sure they'll say "yes". > >Of course, if it's obvious they'll say "no", I try to avoid putting myself >in a bad place... (eg, distributing copies of things that you can still buy >copies of) Because this gets a lot of heated grumbling on the music lists and I'm not about to start another goes-nowehere thread, I'll submit the following and not carry the matter any further. 1) Unlike patent infringement, which is a civil matter, copyright violation is a criminal subject. That means that someone with a desire to make an "example" out of you can have the federal marshalls break down your front door (warrant in hand) and carry off all your goodies as evidence. And penalties, should the matter go to trial, carry the risk of prison time. 2) The matter of musical copying has cost many universities so much money to settle, that several have the policy that illegal copying of music (and for all I know, other materials) is grounds for dismissal (faculty) or expulsion (students). I figure that all you have to do is be noticed byf a manager who's had a very bad day. It would be a trivial matter for McGraw-Hill to demonstrate that they've been deprived of reprint income and so have been damaged by your activities. There's got to be a reason that you don't see old copies of the major computer magazines online. I've got a fairly complete collection of PC Tech Journal that I'm sure others would love to see--but I daren't. I used to know a gal who made a comfortable living on her ranch near Ashland (OR) by tracking down and reporting illegal copies of Autodesk software. So, I'd ask first. Cheers, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Aug 31 21:44:10 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:44:10 -0700 Subject: more found boards Message-ID: Roy J. Tellason wrote: Got one 8-bit card here that also has an internal edge connector and I'm guessing it's a floppy interface -- there's a crystal, one big chip labeled Zilog Z765APS and what I'm guessing is a data separator chip socketed, looks like UM8326, and a bunch of LSTTL glue logic. ------------------------------------ Billy: Very likely - the Z765 was a cross license chip from NEC. I think they got the best of the deal, being able to use Zilog cores. The 765 never impressed me. --------------------------------------- Got one which is an 8-bit card only there's a little sticker near the card edge connector that says "pls plug into the 16 bits slot only" -- why would they do that? This one has a DB25M on the metal bracket, which is also labeled "Scanner Interface", is this supposed to be some kind of crude SCSI? There are a couple of chips labeled "SPOT" (a logo actually), and silkscreened on the board it says "SPOT Fototak 2E-Card". The note on the bag says "Parallel port" but I'm not sure that means anything. About four chips on the board (2 of which look like RAM) and a jumper block, 2x3 with 2 on there. ----------------------------------------- Billy: This sounds like the primitive SCSI that a lot of scanner folks would send out with the early scanners. PCs had moved over to IDE, so a lot of low cost systems didn't have native SCSI boards. Adaptec made a slew of these. Even new and at that time, you could find them at Fry's for $12-15. I remember seeing a few of them with the early external CD burners. Many were SCSI, at least up to the 8X level. Then ATA won, again demonstrating that cheap beats capability every time. ----------------------------------------------- The next one is labeled (in the foil) "ICS2110 Demo Board Rev. A" and sure enough there seems to be a square socketed chip labeled ICS2110 in there. An array of eight of what I'm guessing are RAM, some LSTTL, two 8-pole DIP switches, and four jumper blocks with one jumper on each. A TDA1545 ("Stereo Continuous Calibration DAC"), a couple of NE5532 op amp chips, a whole mess of capacitors, two trimpots (?) and two of what appear to be audio jacks at the metal bracket. This one's a 16-bit card. The last one is also a 16-bit card. On the metal brack is a 50-pin connector (same thing you'd see on an Adaptec 1520, 1540, etc.) and on the opposite end is a 4-pin "drive power" (like in any PC) connector for power to apparently be supplied_to_ the card, a small button ("tac" switch), and a 2x5 pin shrouded connector. And across the top of the card is a big 2.4 ohm 10W (!) power resistor, not the sort of thing I'm used to seeing on "PC" hardware. This one's all surface mount, and the one square chip in there is marked "Altera", not a name I'm at all familiar with. No other markings on the board except a sticker hiding under that big resistor with a barcode and a rather long number on it. ------------------------------------------------ Billy: I'm guessing on this one. The big resistor sounds like a current source for some sort of burner. Altera is a programmable logic company. I wonder if you have one of their early programmers? The programmers had two parts, the PCB and another box with ZIF sockets external to the PCB. The cables were about 24 inches long, but I remember them as plugged into Molex connectors. Can you get us some photos? Might bring back more accurate memories. -------------------------------------------------- Anybody know what these are, any of them? From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Aug 31 21:44:16 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:44:16 -0400 Subject: Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986 In-Reply-To: <200608311933450517.0113CAE3@10.0.0.252> References: <000d01c6cd5e$f3ddff30$6600a8c0@barry> <200608312155.19603.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200608311933450517.0113CAE3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200608312244.16667.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 31 August 2006 22:33, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8/31/2006 at 9:55 PM Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >I generally like to follow the "it's better to ask for forgiveness than to > >ask for permission" rule, unless I'm friends with the person involved, or > > am > > >fairly sure they'll say "yes". > > > >Of course, if it's obvious they'll say "no", I try to avoid putting myself > >in a bad place... (eg, distributing copies of things that you can still > > buy > > >copies of) > > Because this gets a lot of heated grumbling on the music lists and I'm not > about to start another goes-nowehere thread, I'll submit the following and > not carry the matter any further. > > 1) Unlike patent infringement, which is a civil matter, copyright > violation is a criminal subject. That means that someone with a desire to > make an "example" out of you can have the federal marshalls break down your > front door (warrant in hand) and carry off all your goodies as evidence. > And penalties, should the matter go to trial, carry the risk of prison > time. This is largely why I haven't spent much time putting stuff like this online myself. Keeping a low profile for this stuff if you're not 100% sure it's ok is critical. Ie, scan stuff, and provide it on request, or just put up one or two articles. Putting up a huge easily findable repository is probably not a great idea. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 31 22:00:36 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:00:36 -0400 Subject: Need 8 Bit VGA for PC XT 5160 In-Reply-To: <005801c6cd69$f3df84d0$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <005801c6cd69$f3df84d0$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <200608312300.36373.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 31 August 2006 09:57 pm, Julian Wolfe wrote: > *snip* > > > Some 8-bit MBs had stuff that would get in the way of doing > > this, though. > > Literally too, not just figuratively Usually in the form of a chip :( Yeah, and I remember (and probably still have some of) 8-bit cards that had some board extending downwards where you couldn't put them into a 16-bit slot either... > This sounds a lot like what I did with my 5155, except that I didn't go so > far as VGA. > It has: > 1.44MB floppy drive > AST RAMpage/2 card with 2MB RAM > ATI EGA Wonder hooked to internal display - this is the only card that will > work with the internal 5155 display. One hell of a tough thing to track > down. I'm pretty sure I have an EGA card or two around but I don't think I have any EGA monitors left. Good thing those cards will support other monitors as well. :-) > Seagate ST02 connected to 9GB Seagate SCSI hard disk > AdLib Music Synthesizer card > > On top of all this I've managed to make it look fairly stock and found a > proper drive mounting kit for it to make a 3.5" hard disk drive work in a > 5.25" bay with the black bezel. The 3.5" floppy drive was a lot easier. I have some of those hardware kits around too, intending to use a bunch of them for HDs in cases I have here that have a lot of 5.25" bays, I seem to be left with an excess of the ones for floppies. > I spent a LOT of time working on this box, so I'm really proud of it. I > did the 256K to 640K mod, swapped in a V20 chip too. I did a number of 8088-->V20 upgrades way back when, but am not at all sure if any of the XT-class MBs I have might actually have one in there or not. > Of course, I made the mistake of bringing it to VCFMW and putting it next > to a PDP11, so it got largely ignored. :-) > Oh well :p While searching for something else I looked in the closet here (no small feat with the amount of stuff stacked in front of the door), and discovered that there's a "flip-top" XT-style case in there I'd forgotten about. No idea what's in it at the present time, though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 31 22:02:56 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:02:56 -0400 Subject: Octal In-Reply-To: References: <200608312140.54426.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608312302.56017.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 31 August 2006 09:57 pm, William Donzelli wrote: > > I don't remember counting them, but the only ones I saw that would > > display alphanumerics were also segmented, as you describe here. > > A few years back I bought out the basement of an old Burroughs ECD > guy, and I seem to remember seeing something about hex Nixies. In the > zillions of Nixies I got out of there, none were hex, although there > were many real oddballs in the bunch (Pixies, dual numeral, symbols). > Who knows - perhaps hex Nixies never got out of the lab. I wouldn't mind getting some nixies to play with at some point, but it's not a real high priority item on my list. I did have one assembly that I picked up somewhere a while back, but ended up selling it to a guy who's a real collector of that sort of stuff. Do you still have much of that on hand? > > But segmented displays aren't always the best choice. If you have a > > display where that last digit is reading "4" and it occasionally bobbles > > to 3 or 5, a Nixie will show you this by the relative brightness of those > > electrodes, while a 7-segment display will show you "8"... > > Seven segment displays are also ergonomic disasters - the military > found it is far easier to read a seven segment display incorrectly > than just about every other method. Not a big surprise as far as I'm concerned. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 31 22:08:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:08:00 -0700 Subject: more found boards In-Reply-To: <200608312137.39851.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200608312137.39851.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200608312008000241.01332528@10.0.0.252> On 8/31/2006 at 9:37 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Got one 8-bit card here that also has an internal edge connector and I'm >guessing it's a floppy interface -- there's a crystal, one big chip >labeled Zilog Z765APS and what I'm guessing is a data separator chip socketed, >looks like UM8326, and a bunch of LSTTL glue logic. Probably a floppy card, or QIC floppy-tape card. >Got one which is an 8-bit card only there's a little sticker near the card >edge connector that says "pls plug into the 16 bits slot only" -- why >would Interface card for a Spot Technologies (RIP) Fototak slide scanner--a very cheap device. >The next one is labeled (in the foil) "ICS2110 Demo Board Rev. A" and sure >enough there seems to be a square socketed chip labeled ICS2110 in there. Most likely a sound card. The Turtle Beach Tropez used an ICS 2110: http://www.yjfy.com/Museum/sound/opti.htm >The last one is also a 16-bit card. On the metal brack is a 50-pin >connector (same thing you'd see on an Adaptec 1520, 1540, etc.) and on the opposite >end is a 4-pin "drive power" (like in any PC) connector for power to >apparently be supplied_to_ the card, a small button ("tac" switch), and a 2x5 pin >shrouded connector. Probably a SCSI adapter card, My guess is that the big power resistor is a bit of ballast for the termination power. Altera is still very much in business and sells interesting things such as FPGAs. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 31 22:12:44 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:12:44 -0400 Subject: more found boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200608312312.44708.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 31 August 2006 10:44 pm, Billy Pettit wrote: > > Got one which is an 8-bit card only there's a little sticker near the card > edge connector that says "pls plug into the 16 bits slot only" -- why would > they do that? This one has a DB25M on the metal bracket, which is also > labeled "Scanner Interface", is this supposed to be some kind of crude > SCSI? > There are a couple of chips labeled "SPOT" (a logo actually), and > silkscreened on the board it says "SPOT Fototak 2E-Card". The note on the > bag says "Parallel port" but I'm not sure that means anything. About four > chips on the board (2 of which look like RAM) and a jumper block, 2x3 with > 2 on there. > > ----------------------------------------- > > Billy: This sounds like the primitive SCSI that a lot of scanner folks > would send out with the early scanners. I believe that one of the flatbed scanners I have here has a 25-pin connector on it in addition to the usual 50-pin one. <...> > The last one is also a 16-bit card. On the metal bracket is a 50-pin > connector (same thing you'd see on an Adaptec 1520, 1540, etc.) and on the > opposite end is a 4-pin "drive power" (like in any PC) connector for power > to apparently be supplied_to_ the card, a small button ("tac" switch), and > a 2x5 pin shrouded connector. And across the top of the card is a big 2.4 > ohm 10W (!) power resistor, not the sort of thing I'm used to seeing on > "PC" hardware. > > This one's all surface mount, and the one square chip in there is marked > "Altera", not a name I'm at all familiar with. No other markings on the > board except a sticker hiding under that big resistor with a barcode and a > rather long number on it. > > ------------------------------------------------ > > Billy: I'm guessing on this one. The big resistor sounds like a current > source for some sort of burner. There's also a surface-mount fuse (labeled as such) connected to that power connector's 12V line. I'm guessing they wanted to sent +12V out that connector... > Altera is a programmable logic company. I wonder if you have one of their > early programmers? The programmers had two parts, the PCB and another box > with ZIF sockets external to the PCB. The cables were about 24 inches long, > but I remember them as plugged into Molex connectors. That might be possibly the case. Too bad I don't have whatever plugs in there... > Can you get us some photos? Might bring back more accurate memories. No, unfortunately, I don't have any easy way of doing that at this point in time (something I should probably rectify sometime soon, when I can afford to). -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 22:29:47 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 15:29:47 +1200 Subject: Mercury cells (was e: Sharp PC-1211) In-Reply-To: <013001c6ccb1$69832d40$3c00a8c0@fluke> References: <013001c6ccb1$69832d40$3c00a8c0@fluke> Message-ID: On 8/31/06, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > Yes, according to Camera & Camera (big local camera store in Auckland) > they're still legal and available here (NZ). Hmm... I think I see a fresh pair of PX625s in my future (I'll be in Christchurch for most of November and December). -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 31 22:58:53 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A little bit OT: an interesting POP Message-ID: <200609010358.k813wrQP012932@floodgap.com> It's a little bit ON-topic because I would never have discovered this if I wasn't playing with my C64's modem. Btw, for 6551 ACIA hackers, I seem to be having some trouble detecting carrier with my SwiftLink. I know that in the cartridge it is always tied on with pull-ups so that the 6551's receiver stays on, and so Dr Evil Labs/CMD directed DCD to come over DSR instead (this is internal to the cartridge). But all I get is the DCD "phantom" always-on bit when I check the register, even if I get a successful connect -- I never see the DCR line come up. Are there DB-25 to DE-9 cables that just don't connect DCD? While I was testing this out, I dialed the local AOL access number just to get something with a carrier so that I could watch the 6551 status register when it connected. Besides the DCD/DSR chachacha above, I got an interesting prompt (X'ed out the naughty bits) Level 3 Comm nasXX.XXXX UQKT2 Username:/login:/Login: Not your typical POP. I know who Level 3 is, and I do have an AOL login. It's interesting, however -- I was just expecting 8-bit "garbage" and not an actual prompt. I disconnected immediately since I wasn't interested in raising anyone's blood pressure at Level 3's security centre. What kind of protocol might this use (besides AOL's internal one, of course)? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Excellent guess, Kreskin. Wrong, but excellent. -- Space Quest 6 ----------- From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Aug 31 22:10:49 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:10:49 -0400 Subject: [SPAM] - Retrospective or, misleading hindsight. - Bayesian Filter detected spam In-Reply-To: <200608261153250453.04D21825@10.0.0.252> References: <200608261153250453.04D21825@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44F7A4B9.4030102@compsys.to> >Chuck Guzis wrote: >I was helping a fellow with a writeup on the CDC STAR-100 (circa 1974) and >stumbled across some of the old manuals on bitsavers. > >You know, back in 1975, the machine was arguably the fastest in the world >(I won't get into benchmark results, but it was definitely in competition >with Cray). I'd forgotten that the maximum memory available was a megaword >(64-bit words) and that standard was half a meg. > >Consider that that's 8MB by today's standards, barely enough to host >Windows 98. On the other hand, the CPU is still pretty complex by today's >standards--and we had 256 64-bit registers to work with. > > Jerome Fine replies: Back in the early 1970's, CDC set up a facility in Toronto. One of the initial goals was to produce an operating system for the STAR-100 which I seem to remember had many of the advanced features found in a current high quality OS such as VMS. The instruction set also included VECTOR instructions such as the ability to multiply up to 64K elements times a second set of 64K elements and place the products in a third set of 64K elements. Such an instruction would make use of 3 registers to specify each of the 3 sets of elements (high order 16 bits of each register was the count and low order 48 bits of each register was the virtual memory address). In addition, security was a high priority. Also, implicit in the design was virtual memory since the program address space used 48 bits down the the bit level leaving 45 bits to address the 32 TerraBytes of virtual memory (although if I remember correctly, the top 16 TerraBytes was reserved for the protected OS leaving ONLY 16 TerraBytes for a user program). A standard OS function was the ability to associate (MAP) a file to an address range which the OS then managed for the user when any portion of the MAPPED file was accessed if any memory within the file range was referenced. One very helpful hardware feature was an ordered list of all of the pages of memory which a user program was allowed to reference at any given point in time. Memory management hardware placed the MOST RECENTLY used page at the top of the ordered list and the LEAST RECENTLY used page automatically drifted to the bottom of the list. This feature of the hardware allowed the OS to determine which pages to remove from memory when a user program exceeded the currently allowed number of pages in memory. For example, if the user program referenced some code or data in virtual memory that was currently on disk and not presently in physical memory, a page fault occurred. Prior to the user program continuing execution, the OS discarded a LEAST RECENTLY used page, then read into physical memory the newly referenced page. Many of the applications required so much memory that only one program could efficiently run at a time - 8 MegaBytes may have been a huge physical resource in the early 1970s, but as with many programs today, the available physical memory was just much too small. By the way, because the STAR-100 was so expensive, a baby called the PL-50 was produced which had the same instruction set and registers, but ran much slower. All of this took place more than 30 years ago. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 31 23:31:05 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:31:05 -0500 Subject: [SPAM] - Retrospective or, misleading hindsight. - Bayesian Filter detected spam References: <200608261153250453.04D21825@10.0.0.252> <44F7A4B9.4030102@compsys.to> Message-ID: <006c01c6cd7f$7417df20$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I thought I saw my first false-positive from the spam filter on the server. But... after checking, the subject line was already like that when it entered the mailstream :) Jay From dm.hunt at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 31 17:25:09 2006 From: dm.hunt at ntlworld.com (David Hunt) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:25:09 +0100 Subject: Byte magazines: 1976 - 1986 In-Reply-To: <20060831195248.8595858255@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <001b01c6cd4c$530b35d0$3201a8c0@hal> > And thusly were the wise words spake by Don > > > > maynard at jmg.com wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > > > I have recently come upon a collection of Byte Magazines from > > > 1976 through to about 1986. It is not complete, that is I do not > > > have every issue across that time span. But the > collection is pretty comprehensive. > > > > > > I have a scanner with an auto document feeder. I'd > like to scan > > > this material in and post it online as a collection of jpgs. > > > However, to do this well would require destroying the bindings of > > > each magazine in order to get a completely flat scan of each page. > > > > Before you commit to destroying one or more bindings TO ACCOMMODATE > > YOUR ADF, you might consider taking a *similar* magazine and > > "processing it" first. Your ADF might not be kind to the pages > > (magazines are printed on "different" paper than you would find in, > > e.g., a textbook). > > But even if you didn't use the ADF to scan the pages, > it is much easier and you get a better scan from a sheet of > paper then a page directly from a magazine - no "curl" near > where the spine is... I have a pile of old "Micro Users" 1983-1996 (BBC Micro - UK) that I am trying to scan, sometime in 1984 they changed to a spine format. The spine format makes the magazine impossible to scan without removing the spine first. Although, a common magazine, I am loathed to destroy them. I had an idea, I haven't had any time to try it out yet, though... Why not use a digital camera on a tripod with the magazine pages at 45 degrees held open with a plate of glass to hold it down and take pictures through the glass with a cable release (lighting would be an issue, might need a polarizing filter for the glass reflection, if there is any), rotate the camera (or use two) to take the other page etc. You could also make some kind of hinged glass 'V' shaped glass to come down over the magazine or book to make handling the magazine easier. I've got a free w/e so I might try and scan in some more Micro Users using this technique. Dave ;) From mike at ambientdesign.com Thu Aug 31 20:44:04 2006 From: mike at ambientdesign.com (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 13:44:04 +1200 Subject: (OT?) List Management (was Re: A tree to grow) References: Message-ID: <00b501c6cd68$1b62f200$3c00a8c0@fluke> > > Do you see a common thread to the complaints here? No one seems to be > > saying that the "10 year rule" is perfect. What people are complaining > > about is a nebulous statement that the "10 year rule" is dead, and that this > > list is for discussing "Classic" computers. It is obvious to anyone what > > the "10 year rule" meant. I don't see where anyone is clear what "Classic" > > means. > At last! Somebody has got the point. > To be honest, I didn't much care for the 10 year rule, but it had the > great advantage it was unambiguous. A computing machine over 10 years old > was on-topic, one younger than that was off topic. Simple. > Now I have no idea what a classic computer is now defined as. It may well > mean different things to different people. I am sure there are machines > that everyone here will think of as classics (let's say the original > straight-8). There are others that are more boderline. Is this really necessary? Personally, I don't need anyone to define what a classic computer is, I know damn well. Especially given examples; PDPs are on topic, early programmable calculators are on topic, 80s non-x86 home computers are on topic etc. I doubt that common early-90s programmable calculators should be on-topic. And late model Dells running Windows 98 or later is off topic. Really, honestly, it should just be a matter of COMMON SENSE. Caps because it's worth shouting. OK, we might not all agree on every machine's on-topicness, but in 95% of cases it's obvious, and a bit of flexibility, tolerance and above all common sense should be able to deal with the other 5%. Really, I find it hard to believe that anyone with a modicum of intelligence wouldn't be able to apply common sense to figure out whether a post should be made or not, given the topic of 'classic computers'. But if people absolutely must be guided to that extent, fine - may I suggest a list of what's on topic and what's not? Here's an example (not suggesting this as gospel, by the way, it's just an example): On topic: - Any computer or programmable calculator made before 1985 - CP/M or other classic OS running on ANY hardware (yes, this includes boring late model Dells) so long as discussion centres on the OS, not late-model hardware - Tools (OEM service tools, oscilloscopes etc) and their use related to on-topic hardware - Troubleshooting advice/requests where applicable to on-topic hardware/software Off topic: - Windows 95 or later - x86, post-68k Mac hardware - Bicycles, guns, cars, needlepoint, oceanography etc. ad inifinitum I stress again, I wouldn't have thought this is necessary. But if people MUST have rules defining on/off-topicness, I think it could work. It can be updated easily as conditions change. For instance, I'm sure Win95 will become on-topic sometime, like it or not. I have to say that I've been on this list (admittedly lurking) for a very long time now, five to six years perhaps, and the fact that the ten-year rule is no longer current has been brought up repeatedly since then. Why it's suddenly become an issue now I fail to comprehend; I believe that it's completely useless as a yardstick anyway. One of my servers is a Pentium 133 from c. 1995, currently running Windows 2000 Server. I don't think I should be given even a tiny excuse to discuss that machine on this list. But I also have a Mac from about 1997 or so, with an interesting owner history, and running Linux. Perhaps that ought to be on-topic? I'm sure there are much better examples than that, too. Suggestion number two - if the ten-year rule is that important to some people, perhaps we can strike a compromise and add to our 'off topic' list, something like the following: "All computers less than ten years old are off topic". This is NOT to say that everything older than ten years is automatically on-topic, it just states that to be classic, a computer must be at least ten years old. And just a quick note on the current management of the list - Someone needs to provide the service of list maintenance, guidance, and laying down of the law when required. From my perspective, nothing Jay has said has been unreasonable, and I'm grateful to him for doing what he has. I used to do that sort of thing as well, but exactly this kind of situation made me swear 'never again'. Please, let's see what we can do to make the list work and to help, rather than just complaining about the situation as it stands? Common sense, flexibility, friendliness,... Many apologies for dragging this awful discussion out further, but I think we need to sort the issue out. m. From death69inc at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 31 22:23:45 2006 From: death69inc at sbcglobal.net (death69inc) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:23:45 -0500 Subject: Can anyone here burn a MMI6309 PROM for a Lisa? Message-ID: <000501c6cd76$08b432a0$6400a8c0@da089f1548b1b4> seen a real old post about chip programming noticed you had a data i/o 29b I have been looking for information abtou this programmer as I am looking into buy a porgrammer and everyone keeps telling me I shoudl ge thtis type with a unipak 2b but seems noone will tell me what I will need to use this system as in drivers ....front end since data i/o no longer give help for this item I must rely on someone that has one to help me out ...there are a few on ebay and im thinking of getting one but none of the sellers are the users so can not tell me anythign about them other than they passed self tests... either way if there is anyway you can help me out least maybe tell mewhere drivers and or front end can be downloaded or somthign would be great.. thanks chris