From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 3 18:18:41 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 00:18:41 -7100 (BST) Subject: More 11/45 In-Reply-To: <009b01c6545f$bcab7f60$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Mar 30, 6 07:09:18 pm Message-ID: > > Tony wrote.... > > The 7414 is a pretty cheap chip, and not hard to find (I think you want > > to keep the same family as the original here, though -- that is don't use > > a 74LS14). I would change it on the card where you know there's a problem > > ansd see what happens. > Did that today. LTC is going through the schmitt trigger just fine. The diag > no longer fails on "bit 7 stuck in LTC". Instead, it now locks up at the > same spot in the DL11-W diag as the other two DL11-W cards. Right after "01 > devices under test", the machine just halts with the cursor still at the end > of that line. In one sense that's a step forward in that all DL11-Ws now behave in the same way. It's likely (but not certain) that the fault is now elsewhere. > Here's where I'm trying to start. I was looking at some of the code on this > website, hints for troubleshooting a dead PDP11. It's at: > http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/hints.html > > I enter and run the Line Time Clock Interrupt test from that webpage, and > the system halts at location 4. How on earth? Does the 11/45 have some > interrupts to specific locations for things like power fail or something? It does. There are hardware traps for power failure, illegal address and so on. Others have pointed out that if it halt with the PC containing 4, it really halted one location earlier (at address 2), and that means that the most likely thing was a trap to location 0 (location 0 would contain 2, that would be loaded into the PC, and location 2 contains a halt instruction. The '.+2 , HALT' is a common pair of words for unused vectors for obvious reasons. Vector 0 is not normally used, but AFAIK there's no _hardware_ reason why it can't be used. In other words, if an interrupting device sends 0 onto the data lines along with the INTR signal when asked to provide a vector, then the processor will indeed vector via location 0. OK, the correct interrupt vector, which should be supplied onto the Unibus by the DL11-W card, is 100. Now that's just one bit different from 0. So I would suggest 3 possibilites : 1) All your DL11Ws are providing the wrong vector. Unlikely, but possible. 2) For some reason the 100's bit (if you see what I mean) is getting lost somewhere. Bad wireing on the backplane, a defective buffer on one of the processor boards, etc 3) The processor is ignoring _all_ vectors and loading the address register with 0. I'll llook in the prints (but probably not tonight :-)) to see just how the vector should be transfered round the processor. Then I can suggest signals to check, etc. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 3 18:19:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 00:19:57 -7100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 printsets? In-Reply-To: <00bb01c65462$8efc37a0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Mar 30, 6 07:29:30 pm Message-ID: > > I want to trace out the bus grant signals on my /45 to make sure there's not > a break somewhere. However, I don't see the backplane printsets on > bitsavers. Although the CPU printset doesn't contain the full backplane wiring, one page does show the grant chain. IIRC it's after the CPU board schematics, before the power supply stuff. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 1 01:10:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2006 23:10:09 -0800 Subject: Swapping 8237 for 8257 DMA controller Message-ID: <200603312310090844.1C8CC850@10.0.0.252> This is on an 8085-based system. It looks as if some of the features of the 8237 DMA controller (like autoinitialize) could come in very handy in a couple of situations. Right now, there's an 8257 in there. Other than some reprogramming, is it feasible to make this swap? Are there any timing issues that I need to be aware of? Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 1 08:12:12 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 07:12:12 -0700 Subject: ASR-33 teletype sounds Message-ID: Does anyone know where to find some sound files of the ASR-33 chunking away on printing something out? Didn't the teletypes have a bell they rang near the right margin when printing a long line? Or was that only during input... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 1 08:50:40 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 07:50:40 -0700 Subject: ASR-33 teletype sounds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <442E9340.3020807@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > Does anyone know where to find some sound files of the ASR-33 chunking > away on printing something out? > > Didn't the teletypes have a bell they rang near the right margin when > printing a long line? Or was that only during input... I know a TTY was a major character in the movie: The Andromeda Strain but you have to record your own sounds :) Now if you want relay computer sounds -- look at the last link on homebrewing. From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Apr 1 09:01:33 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 10:01:33 -0500 Subject: simh & tu58 Message-ID: <200604011501.k31F1XwM025385@mwave.heeltoe.com> Hi Someone asked me if there was a way to read TU58 images using simh. I suspect the answer is "no" but I thought I'd ask. It seems like one could craft a version of the tu58 emulator which could be connected to simh via a pty, since the tu58 is a serial device. has anyone tried this? -brad From hachti at hachti.de Sat Apr 1 09:13:32 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 17:13:32 +0200 Subject: ASR-33 teletype sounds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <442E989C.5040801@hachti.de> the ASR-33 chunking > away on printing something out? If you *NEED* the ASR sound I could record some..... > Didn't the teletypes have a bell they rang near the right margin when > printing a long line? Or was that only during input... Yes, there is a bell. And a bell character as well. Philipp From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 1 09:14:07 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 08:14:07 -0700 Subject: ASR-33 teletype sounds In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 01 Apr 2006 07:50:40 -0700. <442E9340.3020807@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <442E9340.3020807 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf writes: > I know a TTY was a major character in the movie: The Andromeda Strain > but you have to record your own sounds :) OK, good idea, I have that movie, I'll see if I can find an isolated segment with no dialog or background music. > Now if you want relay computer sounds -- look at the last link on > homebrewing. I was specifically looking for that chunka-chunka-chunka style noise that the teletype makes :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Apr 1 11:41:04 2006 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 12:41:04 -0500 Subject: Auto dealer closure uncovers... In-Reply-To: <442DBB0B.3060107@gjcp.net> References: <442DBB0B.3060107@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <80b37ffc0604010941j5ddf04bch8fa49e2b1df37678@mail.gmail.com> Yea, as long as you load that thing down with memory and run 10.3 (10.4 is okay, but you'll be better off with 10.3 due to spotlight's indexing in 10.4). 512MB being the minimum of 'decent' here On 3/31/06, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > Paxton Hoag wrote: > > > And a OT Mac G3 300 small tower, Sony Monitor and no Hard drive. I > > think I am going to try to get this to work. I have a spare HD but no > > OS. I understand it will run OSX but slowly. > > Further OT but load it with memory and turn of antialiasing. You'll > need to google around to find out how to do this. > > Gordon. > > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Apr 1 12:41:42 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 10:41:42 -0800 Subject: ASR-33 teletype sounds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <442EC966.6070301@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: >In article <442E9340.3020807 at jetnet.ab.ca>, > woodelf writes: > > >I was specifically looking for that chunka-chunka-chunka style noise >that the teletype makes :-). > > all the presidents men uses newswire tty as way to pace movie. The Falcon and the Snowman with sean penn had a lot of tty type devices in the scenes where the Timothy Hutton character was in his "military contractor" job. both have good quality "teletype" noises as they are part of the devices used by the filmakers. Jim From djg at pdp8.net Sat Apr 1 13:29:03 2006 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 14:29:03 -0500 Subject: ASR-33 teletype sounds Message-ID: <200604011929.k31JT3u01858@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> I have some movies with sound on http://www.pdp8.net/asr33/asr33.shtml From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Apr 1 17:49:30 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 17:49:30 -0600 Subject: IBM 5154 smearing Message-ID: <442F118A.604@brutman.com> A few weeks ago I rescued a 6Mhz IBM AT in an unusual rack mount case with a Plexiglass cover. I don't know how it got in that condition or how anybody permitted it, being as it was not shielded. But I digress .. (It is marvellous .. like the original case mod!) It had a 5154 with it that displayed output, but the output looked as though it was 'smearing' to the right. This made text look goofy. The problem was more apparent in graphics modes. A different 5154 or worked on the machine so it is definitely the monitor, not the EGA card. I'm a monitor novice. I know these things pack a punch, so I have a healthy respect for them. Are there any simple checks to make? (I have the Sams guides for the 5151 and the 5153, but not the 5154 so I'm kind of in the dark.) The machine also came with a 5151 that doesn't work at all. I don't even think it is getting power. For that one I can refer to the Sams guide. As for the rest of the machine, it was fine except for the full height hard disk. The hard disk would start spinning, but it sounded as though it was making metal shavings - I don't think there is any hope for it, so I replaced it with an modern IDE drive and controller. The machine has 1152KB, EGA with daughterboard, monochrome card, IBM 5250 emulation card, IBM token ring card, original BIOS and a single 1.2MB floppy drive. From recycler at swbell.net Sat Apr 1 23:52:19 2006 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick Jankowiak) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 23:52:19 -0600 Subject: FA Osborne System One with software Message-ID: <442F6693.2090406@swbell.net> If you like the Osborne One, have a look. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8790429469 From recycler at swbell.net Sat Apr 1 23:52:43 2006 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick Jankowiak) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 23:52:43 -0600 Subject: FA VAXELN 1.1 microfiche Message-ID: <442F66AB.10708@swbell.net> VAXELN 1.1 microfiche http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8790431921 From recycler at swbell.net Sat Apr 1 23:53:09 2006 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick Jankowiak) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 23:53:09 -0600 Subject: FA DEC PRO 380 software P/OS software Message-ID: <442F66C5.4040003@swbell.net> DEC PRO 380 software P/OS software http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8790433769 From recycler at swbell.net Sat Apr 1 23:53:36 2006 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick Jankowiak) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 23:53:36 -0600 Subject: FA pdp11 KDF11 BOOT ROM -the chips themselves Message-ID: <442F66E0.3010402@swbell.net> pdp11 KDF11 BOOT ROM -the chips themselves http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8790431114 From vp at cs.drexel.edu Sun Apr 2 09:55:45 2006 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 10:55:45 -0400 Subject: HP9000/345 SCSI Problem Message-ID: <20060402095101.159C620131CD@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Hi, I have an HP9000/345 system with two HP-IB interfaces. However I see that inside there are two SCSI connectors (one with termination resistors next to a power socket for a disk drive. I also found a reference that HP shipped 345 systems with an internal SCSI disk drive. However, my system does not locate a SCSI controller when it boots (note I am talking about the boot monitor, I have not managed to boot an OS on this machine). If I remove the ribbon cable connecting the second HP-IB controller, the machine recognizes a SCSI controller , but if I connect anything to one of the SCSI connectors, the system complains that the SCSI controller registers are bad (failed test). I believe that there is some config problem (perhaps some jumpers need to be changed?). Anybody has any suggestions? Thanks **vp From paul at frixxon.co.uk Sun Apr 2 08:34:29 2006 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 14:34:29 +0100 Subject: 11/45 printsets? In-Reply-To: <00bb01c65462$8efc37a0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00bb01c65462$8efc37a0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <442FD2E5.2080604@frixxon.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > I want to trace out the bus grant signals on my /45 to make sure there's > not a break somewhere. However, I don't see the backplane printsets on > bitsavers. > > Can some one point me in the right direction? Henk scanned the PDP-11/45 System Engineering Drawings over five years ago and they're online at mainecoon.com. They include a page with the grant chain that Tony mentioned (or will mention, since Tony's email is dated in the future!) In the interests of teaching a man how to fish, they're pointed to by Manx: http://vt100.net/manx/search?on=0&cp=1&q=11%2F45 -- Paul From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Apr 2 13:21:35 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 11:21:35 -0700 Subject: HP9000/345 SCSI Problem In-Reply-To: <20060402095101.159C620131CD@mail.cs.drexel.edu> References: <20060402095101.159C620131CD@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <4430162F.70304@msm.umr.edu> Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: >Hi, > >I have an HP9000/345 >I believe that there is some config problem (perhaps some jumpers >need to be changed?). Anybody has any suggestions? > >Thanks > > HP was a big fan of High voltage scsi. when you connect a single ended device to a scsi bus, you should short out all the drivers, maybe explaining the bad scsi report you get. I would try to find the drivers nearest the cabling and see if they can be determined to be single ended, or if they are the high voltage drivers. A lot of the high voltage driver systems had a big array of dips that converted the high voltage signals to the internal voltage, and are quite evident when you look at the board. A lot of scsi designs also have a big array of empty spots that are unpopulated that are on single ended controllers, which were put in for possible production as differential. jim From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 2 14:24:15 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 20:24:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 5154 smearing In-Reply-To: <442F118A.604@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Apr 1, 6 05:49:30 pm Message-ID: > > > A few weeks ago I rescued a 6Mhz IBM AT in an unusual rack mount case > with a Plexiglass cover. I don't know how it got in that condition or > how anybody permitted it, being as it was not shielded. But I digress > .. (It is marvellous .. like the original case mod!) > > It had a 5154 with it that displayed output, but the output looked as > though it was 'smearing' to the right. This made text look goofy. The > problem was more apparent in graphics modes. A different 5154 or worked > on the machine so it is definitely the monitor, not the EGA card. First thing to lookl at : display text (or some graphics with vertical lines) in each of the 3 primary colours (R, G, B). Is the smearing as bad on each colour, or is one particularly bad, or what? Most of the time smearing comes from one of 2 sources. Either dreid up capactiors in the video circuits, or a low emission CRT. You'd better hope it's not the latter. > I'm a monitor novice. I know these things pack a punch, so I have a > healthy respect for them. Are there any simple checks to make? There are high voltages in there, sure. On most of the PCBs, actually, but at least the PSU is in its own box inside, so it's hard to touch rectified mains (which is probably the most dangerous supply in the monitor). I do have a schematic if yuo want me to go through it. > (I have the Sams guides for the 5151 and the 5153, but not the 5154 so > I'm kind of in the dark.) > > The machine also came with a 5151 that doesn't work at all. I don't > even think it is getting power. For that one I can refer to the Sams guide. The 5151 is nice and simple. In fact the most difficult bit of repairing one is getting the case off. There are screws under the little blanking plates on top, screws on the bottom going in from the back side, and then 2 more screws on the bottom. To get the cover off, remove the blanking plates, put the monitor face down, take out the screws under said blanking plates, the 2 on the bottom going in from the back (now going vertically downareds) and the 4 screws of the remaining 6 that are on the rear part of the case. Do not remove the other 2 or the mains transformer will fall onto the CRT. Seriously! There is an internal fuse that might bave blown, if so, suspect problems in the PSU or line output stages. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 2 14:33:54 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 20:33:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9000/345 SCSI Problem In-Reply-To: <20060402095101.159C620131CD@mail.cs.drexel.edu> from "Vassilis Prevelakis" at Apr 2, 6 10:55:45 am Message-ID: > > > I believe that there is some config problem (perhaps some jumpers > need to be changed?). Anybody has any suggestions? I don't know if it's any help, but there's a CE manual (a boardswapper guide) over on http://www.hpmuseum.net. I find it best to click the 'documentation' link from the homepage and wait for the complete list of manuals to appear beacuse some of them are not in the obvious (to me) place. Anyway, that manual seems to imply that the cofiguration is done in software and stored in EEPROM. May be worth trying that. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 2 17:41:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 15:41:19 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M Message-ID: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> Although I've written several CP/M CBIOSes, I've never had to write one on a system that used the Trap vector (0066h) for something essential. Just curious--has anyone had to deal with servicing the Trap interrupt in CP/M? How does one keep CP/M from clobbering the vector, since it's in the FCB2 area? Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 2 17:48:42 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 23:48:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 interrupts Message-ID: I've had a quick look at my 11/45 printset. It appears that the interrupt handling is partially done by the processor microcde (page 12 of the microcode flows in my printset). And that there is no special path for the vector, it's goes via the normal data paths, into nromal intenral CPU registers, etc. So, I would propose the following tests : 1) Make sure you can read/write all bits from external memort. Just write 1, 2, 4 ,8, 16,.... to successive locations using the panel and examing them. Jsut to eliminate a silly fault like a dead data buffer. 2) Run the basic instruction diagnostic if you've not done so already. This should veryify that the data paths are OK. 3) If possible, try some other interrupting device. An obvious one is the console receiver. Wirre a program to : Load all the vectors with .+2, HALT as you did for the line time clock test that's failing.; Read the Console Rx data register to clear the data received bit (if necessary); then enable the receiver interrupt; and go into an endless loop. Then you press a key on the conosle. The processor should halt, but _where_ does it halt. If 4, then it appears the processor is ignoring all vectors. Hopefully this will point us in the right direction to look for the fault. -tony From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Apr 2 18:52:10 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 18:52:10 -0500 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <443063AA.6040107@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Although I've written several CP/M CBIOSes, I've never had to write one on > a system that used the Trap vector (0066h) for something essential. > > Just curious--has anyone had to deal with servicing the Trap interrupt in > CP/M? How does one keep CP/M from clobbering the vector, since it's in the > FCB2 area? > Chuck, I have no answer for you, but it reminds me of a point I've always wondered about. The CP/M service call to 0005 takes three bytes -- why didn't they move it three bytes forward so that the one byte "RST 1" call could have been used instead? From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Apr 2 19:02:50 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 17:02:50 -0700 Subject: Fwd: BYTE SHOP HAYWARD COMPUTER STORE SURPLUS References: <000601c65682$b8feee90$4401a8c0@maxtorl403> Message-ID: <200604021702500079.01563C7C@192.168.42.129> Fellow techies, The Byte Shop's owner is preparing to 'unload the archive' of his store in Hayward. This news is based on the attached E-mail I received this afternoon. Interested parties should contact Michael directly, please. His E-mail address is clearly shown below. Keep the peace(es). *********** BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE *********** On 02-Apr-06 at 11:24 Michael D. Lipschutz wrote: >Howdy, > >I just read your internet piece on computer salvage. This month of April >2006, I am unloading the archive of my Hayward Byte Shop store. > >Hardware includes Compupro, Morrow, Kaypro, Otrona, and Apple components, >subassemblies, documentation and spare parts kits. > >Do you know if there exists an interest in this stuff? > >I can be best reached through my email address. > > >Mike Lipschutz >Byte Shop Hayward >m.lipschutz at sbcglobal.net > *********** END FORWARDED MESSAGE *********** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 2 19:03:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 17:03:09 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <443063AA.6040107@pacbell.net> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <443063AA.6040107@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200604021703090742.2552902B@10.0.0.252> On 4/2/2006 at 6:52 PM Jim Battle wrote: >Chuck, I have no answer for you, but it reminds me of a point I've >always wondered about. The CP/M service call to 0005 takes three bytes >-- why didn't they move it three bytes forward so that the one byte "RST >1" call could have been used instead? That answer would lie in the mind of the late Gary Kildall, I'm afraid. AFAIK, only RST 7 is used in all of CP/M--and that's as a breakpoint patch in DDT. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun Apr 2 19:12:09 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 19:12:09 -0500 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <443063AA.6040107@pacbell.net> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <443063AA.6040107@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200604022012.09683.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 02 April 2006 07:52 pm, Jim Battle wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Although I've written several CP/M CBIOSes, I've never had to write one > > on a system that used the Trap vector (0066h) for something essential. > > > > Just curious--has anyone had to deal with servicing the Trap interrupt in > > CP/M? How does one keep CP/M from clobbering the vector, since it's in > > the FCB2 area? > > Chuck, I have no answer for you, but it reminds me of a point I've > always wondered about. The CP/M service call to 0005 takes three bytes > -- why didn't they move it three bytes forward so that the one byte "RST > 1" call could have been used instead? I've always wondered about that one myself... And why it was necessary to stuff parameters into registers, when it's easy enough to put 'em on the stack, among other things. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 2 19:24:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 17:24:19 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums Message-ID: <200604021724190872.2565F15E@10.0.0.252> I recall that one test we'd use on new assembly language programmers on the CDC 6000 series was a routine to save the contents of all of the registers without using an exchange jump. It's much harder than it appears to be at first. No register assumptions like B1=1 allowed, either. Are there any similar tasks on other architectures that try a programmer's mettle? Cheers, Chuck From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Apr 2 20:30:51 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 20:30:51 -0500 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604021724190872.2565F15E@10.0.0.252> References: <200604021724190872.2565F15E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44307ACB.1090607@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I recall that one test we'd use on new assembly language programmers on the > CDC 6000 series was a routine to save the contents of all of the registers > without using an exchange jump. It's much harder than it appears to be at > first. No register assumptions like B1=1 allowed, either. > > Are there any similar tasks on other architectures that try a programmer's > mettle? > > Cheers, > Chuck One question posed on this list not all that long ago was: what is the shortest program that you can run on an 8080 where the program will zero all memory, including itself. or something like that. The puzzle is probably equally interesting on many other cpus. I've heard of people asking these types of questions during job interviews -- and I think it is an asinine way of judging someone's abilities. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 2 21:30:29 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 20:30:29 -0600 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 02 Apr 2006 20:30:51 -0500. <44307ACB.1090607@pacbell.net> Message-ID: In article <44307ACB.1090607 at pacbell.net>, Jim Battle writes: > I've heard of people asking these types of questions during job > interviews -- and I think it is an asinine way of judging someone's > abilities. Microsoft, and companies that aspire to be Microsoft by imitating everything they do, has a tendency to ask "brain teaser" questions on job interviews. Personally I always thought this was a stupid way to evaluate an employee. I've yet to see any explanation of why this is something that Microsoft does, but I'm sure they have one. I've been asked those questions and I always thought to myself "uh... yeah, this doesn't reflect anything I do as a software engineer, it just reflects whether or not I "get" this little mind teaser trick". Once it was Microsoft, so I expected this. The other time it was a game company. Although I don't know why they bothered with the mind teaser since it seems all they cared about were cheap bodies who spent their free time playing video games anyway. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Apr 2 21:41:07 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 22:41:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604030251.WAA01164@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Microsoft, and companies that aspire to be Microsoft by imitating > everything they do, has a tendency to ask "brain teaser" questions on > job interviews. Personally I always thought this was a stupid way to > evaluate an employee. I've yet to see any explanation of why this is > something that Microsoft does, but I'm sure they have one. I don't know why Microsoft does it. But if I were hiring, for some positions I might do it; I'd do it because such questions, when they depend on something the applicant has not already seen, can serve to probe cleverness and adaptability of thought. Martin Gardner wrote a book called "Aha! Insight" about this kind of thinking - the "aha!" moment - and how it can be coaxed into occurring more often. Many recreational mathematics puzzle books can serve the same function. This is not restricted to job interviews. In my career as an undergraduate in university, I wrote the Putnam[%] one year. One of the questions was to compute a particular definite integral (of a rather hairy function). The simple answer (which I did not get) was to notice that it had 180? rotational symmetry about a particular point and leverage that to deduce that the answer was exactly half the area of a particular rectangle. [%] The William Lowell Putnam mathematical competition, a *hard* exam held annually for undergrads in mathematics. A good standing on the Putnam can open doors, if you're interested in mathematics in academia. Furthermore... > I've been asked those questions and I always thought to myself "uh... > yeah, this doesn't reflect anything I do as a software engineer, it > just reflects whether or not I "get" this little mind teaser trick". ...well, if you didn't previously get it, whether you can get it during the interview says something about your cleverness and adaptability. If you think out loud at all about it, how you approach it can say a lot more, if the interviewer is good. (And if you did previously get it, that can indicate something too, though it's a much fuzzier something.) Of course, I would never claim that all places that use such questions use them correctly. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 2 22:40:13 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 04:40:13 +0100 Subject: Ultima Underworld Message-ID: <4430991D.3090905@yahoo.co.uk> yeah yeah, it's a game and I don't normally do game posts :-) Does anyone happen to have a copy? I was watching the lad playing some 3D adventure game on the playstation 2 earlier and it brought back memories of playing Ultima back in the early 90's on my old 486 PC and just how darn good that game was. Other than the low screen res by modern standards, I reckon it should have stood the test of time pretty well. I've got a copy of the game (actually, I can't remember which of the two variants it is) on tape back in the UK, but won't be back there for a few months (plus I have no idea if the tape will still be readable) I've just installed DOSEMU / Freedos under Linux on the laptop that I have with me and it's happily playing an Ultima Underworld demo that I found on the 'net, so there's every chance the proper game would work. (I don't have sound going yet, but I don't have sound configured under Linux itself yet - I *think* DOSEMU's capable of providing soundblaster emulation for programs that it runs) cheers! Jules (off to look for more early 90's classics I think :-) From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sun Apr 2 22:57:34 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 20:57:34 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44309D2E.8060009@DakotaCom.Net> Richard wrote: > In article <44307ACB.1090607 at pacbell.net>, > Jim Battle writes: > >> I've heard of people asking these types of questions during job >> interviews -- and I think it is an asinine way of judging someone's >> abilities. > > Microsoft, and companies that aspire to be Microsoft by imitating > everything they do, has a tendency to ask "brain teaser" questions on > job interviews. Personally I always thought this was a stupid way to > evaluate an employee. I've yet to see any explanation of why this is > something that Microsoft does, but I'm sure they have one. I suspect it is a cheap way of splitting people into two groups... when you have enough applicants, you look for quick ways to differentiate among them. And, I suppose this is better than sorting by HEIGHT... :> > I've been asked those questions and I always thought to myself "uh... > yeah, this doesn't reflect anything I do as a software engineer, it > just reflects whether or not I "get" this little mind teaser trick". I think a better way is to have someone pseudo-code a well-known algorithm. You can then note *how* they approach it (top down, bottom up, linearly, etc.). Then, engage them in a discussion of the merits of their implementation as well as where it falls down. Finally (most importantly) ask them how they would test/qualify it (since it seems so few people approach testing with any vigor) > Once it was Microsoft, so I expected this. The other time it was a > game company. Although I don't know why they bothered with the mind > teaser since it seems all they cared about were cheap bodies who spent > their free time playing video games anyway. Yeah, when they give you your paycheck in QUARTERS... :> --don From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 2 23:17:22 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 21:17:22 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <44307ACB.1090607@pacbell.net> References: <200604021724190872.2565F15E@10.0.0.252> <44307ACB.1090607@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200604022117220406.263B4A06@10.0.0.252> On 4/2/2006 at 8:30 PM Jim Battle wrote: >One question posed on this list not all that long ago was: what is the >shortest program that you can run on an 8080 where the program will zero >all memory, including itself. or something like that. The puzzle is >probably equally interesting on many other cpus. > >I've heard of people asking these types of questions during job >interviews -- and I think it is an asinine way of judging someone's >abilities. I disagree. Consider that, as a manager, you might be looking at a whole herd of people who have perfect university transcripts and impressive resum?s. That mostly tells me that (A) they knew how to be students and take tests and (B) had a very talented writer for their resum?s. Neither tells me anything about their on-the-job capabilities and more importantly, their ability to program. And I've interviewd enough people who can lay down an impressive line of BS. One of the peculiar aspects of assembly language programming is the ability to hold the details of what each and every instruction does and how to apply that knowledge. So, yes, the problem posed by the CDC problem involves instinctively knowing that there's no way to store a register without clobbering another one. However, the "aha" is knowing that the RJ (return jump) instruction uses no registers but it does modify memory. So you write a list instructions that conditionally jump on the sign bit of a B register around a return jump that records whether the jump for that bit was taken, followed by an add-to-self to shift the B register left by one bit. An assembly language programmer that doesn't have the dscipline to know his instruction sets in detail and use that knowledge either writes horribly bloated code or spends inordinate amounts of time because, for instance, he doesn't realize that the 16-bit increment instructions on the 8080 don't modify any condition codes or that the 8 bit increments don't modify the carry bit. Getting an indication of this right off the bat is much easier than trying to figure out (A) where am I going to find another programmer to do what this guy was hired to do and (B) how am I going to fire the current guy without him filing a dispute with the state department of labor. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 2 23:30:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 21:30:38 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604022012.09683.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <443063AA.6040107@pacbell.net> <200604022012.09683.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200604022130380573.26476FED@10.0.0.252> On 4/2/2006 at 7:12 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >And why it was necessary to stuff parameters into registers, when it's >easy enough to put 'em on the stack, among other things. Well, memory fetches are slower than register references for one. It requires stack space, for another. And the 8080 code to access the arguments, while not awful, is somewhat clumsy: lxi h, 2 dad sp mov c,m inx h mov b,m ....or something like that to grab a word off the stack into BC. Cheers, Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Apr 2 23:46:10 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 00:46:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604022117220406.263B4A06@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > I disagree. Consider that, as a manager, you might be looking at a whole > herd of people who have perfect university transcripts and impressive > resum?s. That mostly tells me that (A) they knew how to be students and > take tests and (B) had a very talented writer for their resum?s. Neither > tells me anything about their on-the-job capabilities and more importantly, > their ability to program. As a manager, you should know that people coming right out of engineering school should be treated at the lowest level of skill - little to none. Trying to give these recent graduates little tests like this will just cloud your judgement due to its extreme error-prone nature. There are two very important things students get out of engineering school. Not coding skills, not the understanding of a turbine, not basic organic chemistry, not Ohm's law. The first is an idea of how far one can push themselves. In most engineering degrees it generally involve a huge, impossible task, sometime in the third year. When finished, one can look back, and all the problems before seem trivial. The second is how to be an engineer. How to tackle a problem, how to plan it out, how to deal with it. With this knowledge, one can just about deal with any engineering problem in any discipline. Of course, once in the workforce, all the grades and school entries on the resume quickly become moot. Then you cam start with the tricky picky questions... Come to think about it - asking anyone anything about assembly in an interview these days is pretty moot. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sun Apr 2 23:57:37 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 21:57:37 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604022130380573.26476FED@10.0.0.252> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <443063AA.6040107@pacbell.net> <200604022012.09683.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604022130380573.26476FED@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4430AB41.90701@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/2/2006 at 7:12 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> And why it was necessary to stuff parameters into registers, when it's >> easy enough to put 'em on the stack, among other things. > > Well, memory fetches are slower than register references for one. It > requires stack space, for another. And the 8080 code to access the > arguments, while not awful, is somewhat clumsy: > > lxi h, 2 > dad sp > mov c,m > inx h > mov b,m > > ....or something like that to grab a word off the stack into BC. I think the real reason (?) goes to a difference in cultures between register rich and register poor machines IN THAT TIMEFRAME. E.g., if you are writing code for a 68xx, you have little choice but to do everything in memory addressing. Whereas if you are using 8080/8085/Z80 et al., you just get used to *keeping* things in registers (I can recall spending lots of time evaluating which arguments I would put in which registers so I could *keep* them there -- or somewhere else in the register set -- for the duration of the algorithm... XCHG being a favorite tool in those cases!) Moving to something like a 99000 can be terribly distressing for the register rich crowd to become accustomed to! ;) --don From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 3 00:17:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 22:17:14 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604022217140885.26721A96@10.0.0.252> On 4/3/2006 at 12:46 AM William Donzelli wrote: >Come to think about it - asking anyone anything about assembly in an >interview these days is pretty moot. Yeah, I know. But I don't want to hire the kid out of school who just did his homework for grades. I want the kid who worked outside of class assignments purely for the fun of it. I want the kid who just can't get enough. In short, I want another me. I believe that any organization benefits most from self-starters and bootleg-project fanatics, not from obedient drones who fit neatly into the hierarchy. But then I'm a great fan of Peter Drucker and Gerard Fairtlough. But yeah, assembly language, keypunches and listings are from days gone by--and they'll not be back. But I'll bet I can still find a way to pick out a dedicated self-starter. I don't even care of the person taking the gimmick test doesn't get the gimmick. But I'd cross him or her off the list automatically if he or she didn't insist on knowing the answer. And you'll note that I used the word "programmer", not "coder". Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 3 00:25:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 22:25:29 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <4430AB41.90701@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <443063AA.6040107@pacbell.net> <200604022012.09683.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604022130380573.26476FED@10.0.0.252> <4430AB41.90701@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200604022225290686.2679A753@10.0.0.252> On 4/2/2006 at 9:57 PM Don Y wrote: >Moving to something like a 99000 can be terribly distressing >for the register rich crowd to become accustomed to! ;) I think the hardest machines to program for are the ones with "not quite enough" registers. Programming an IBM 1620 is easy--there are no accumulators, so there isn't much choice. Even a single accumulator calls out a certain programming style. But, say 3 or 4 registers gets you taking time to think about how to best use them. On the other hand, with the CDC Cyber 200, you had 256 64 bit registers, so you could keep just about everything in registers--no tough thought there. But on the 808x, there are just few enough and they're orthogonal enough to make you think. Cheers, Chuck From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Apr 1 09:34:49 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 17:34:49 +0200 Subject: Hospital surplus? (was: OT: Microsoft in the medical field was Re: OT: video signal question) In-Reply-To: <200603230913.JAA16218@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200603230913.JAA16218@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <1143905689.16400.28.camel@fortran.babel> On Thu, 2006-03-23 at 09:13 +0000, Stan Barr wrote: > Don Y said: > > You want to be wary of medical surplus since you have no idea > > *what* it was used for... X-( > The piece of equipment I was scanned by had spent it's working life > surrounded by radioactive material. Admittedly in lead containers. > but even so, I suspect the hospital would be wary of disposing of it > to a memeber of the public. Why? Radiation is like light - shine a flashlight at something (non-phosphoric, pedants! ;) and it doesn't continue glowing. Things that have been exposed to radiation don't radiate. -toresbe :) From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Apr 1 09:06:11 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 17:06:11 +0200 Subject: classiccmping and cold weather In-Reply-To: <20060218235658.73868.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060218235658.73868.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1143903972.16400.25.camel@fortran.babel> On Sat, 2006-02-18 at 15:56 -0800, Chris M wrote: > I had thought lcds get damaged if theyre not allowed > to warm up after getting too cold? Dont particularly > know, but would think the freezing point of that stuph > is much less then h2o. The Norwegian NORD-100 computers had an LCD replacement for the NORD-10s LED operator panel. (The NORD-1 had incandescents, so I guess you have every generation represented. :) I recently found two-three of these having had to sit in an unheated warehouse through at least two Norwegian winters. The LCDs were all cracked. Can you get replacements for these? -toresbe :) From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Apr 1 09:44:44 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 17:44:44 +0200 Subject: Awesome ARPAnet documentary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1143906284.16400.37.camel@fortran.babel> On Mon, 2006-03-20 at 16:31 -0700, Richard wrote: > OK, so I learned something :-). TIPs! > > What were they made of? At the time that the IMPs were made of Honeywell 516s, the TIPs were made of the less ruggedized (but software compatible, right?) 316s. I know that NORSAR-TIP was "returned" - presumably to BBN - sometime in the 80s - at least a few years after the conversion to TCP/IP. > Anyone got one? CHM maybe? I'd be surprised if CHM didn't have at least one. -toresbe From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Apr 1 09:37:26 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 17:37:26 +0200 Subject: Hospital surplus? (was: OT: Microsoft in the medical field was Re: OT: video signal question) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1143905846.16400.33.camel@fortran.babel> On Wed, 2006-03-22 at 14:00 -0700, Richard wrote: > In article , > "James Rice" writes: > > > One of my larger customers had three GE MRI's with Octanes and when > > the lease was up and they switched to the newer Open MRI machines, > > they all came with Dell Precision Workstations. > > So what do hospitals do with all that gear that they've had in > pristine lab conditions for years when they upgrade and no longer need > it? I've got a lead on a PDP-11/73 and an LSI-11.03 which are both in active use at a Norwegian research site, in controlling two electron microscopes. Both have dual 8" floppies and are being replaced by 'scopes using Dell workstations. -toresbe :) From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Apr 1 12:27:30 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2006 20:27:30 +0200 Subject: Longshot: Symbol PDT 1510A as a terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1143916050.16400.50.camel@fortran.babel> On Wed, 2006-01-25 at 14:44 -0700, Richard wrote: > In article <012301c621e6$e71efc00$5f25fea9 at ibm23xhr06>, > "John Allain" writes: > > > I recently obtained a Symbol Technologies 1510A made as a dedicated > > laser scanner, that is, eprom'ed to do a specific task. [...] > > Is this a handheld unit? I am unfamiliar with this device. Do you > have a picture or link to a page on it? My Symbol machines are all ruggedized versions of standard-ish small machines from the day - sometimes with extras. Mine has some WLAN card and a barcode scanner. I have a friend with six Palm-based ones, and one Pocket-PC-based one myself. -toresbe :) From dkmalhotra at sancharnet.in Mon Apr 3 00:46:44 2006 From: dkmalhotra at sancharnet.in (DK Malhotra) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 11:16:44 +0530 Subject: looking for MFM RLL Drives Message-ID: <000601c656e2$0bc2ef00$fc74003d@sim6pdy39xrzx1> We are looking for QUANTUM Q540 Hard Disk Drive 36MB, MFM with OMTI 5400 controller card. Please advise if you can supply. Thanks. DK Malhotra IGRUA, Fursatganj Airfield Raebareli (U.P.) PIN 229 302 INDIA Ph. 0535 2202096, 2202097, 2202808 0535 2441142, 2441144, 2441150, 2441151 Fax 0535 2202094 Website: www.igrua.gov.in _____ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Apr 3 01:01:24 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 01:01:24 -0500 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604022117220406.263B4A06@10.0.0.252> References: <200604021724190872.2565F15E@10.0.0.252> <44307ACB.1090607@pacbell.net> <200604022117220406.263B4A06@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4430BA34.8050008@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > An assembly language programmer that doesn't have the dscipline to know his > instruction sets in detail and use that knowledge either writes horribly > bloated code or spends inordinate amounts of time because, for instance, he > doesn't realize that the 16-bit increment instructions on the 8080 don't > modify any condition codes or that the 8 bit increments don't modify the > carry bit. The only problem with this is that most kids out of college learn this stuff *at* their first jobs. I knew many aspects of my field very well out of college, but it didn't "click" until I had to use them at work. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Apr 3 01:16:36 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 01:16:36 -0500 Subject: Auto dealer closure uncovers... In-Reply-To: <80b37ffc0604010941j5ddf04bch8fa49e2b1df37678@mail.gmail.com> References: <442DBB0B.3060107@gjcp.net> <80b37ffc0604010941j5ddf04bch8fa49e2b1df37678@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4430BDC4.4070303@oldskool.org> Gary Sparkes wrote: > Yea, as long as you load that thing down with memory and run 10.3 (10.4 is > okay, but you'll be better off with 10.3 due to spotlight's indexing in 10.4). > 512MB being the minimum of 'decent' here When I read stuff like this I wonder what the heck happened. The original Mac was a marvel of cramming everything graphical and useful into a 64KB ROM -- I know it's 22 years later, but with OSX requiring a minimum of 512MB RAM for "minimum of 'decent'", I just don't get it. We can bash Windows all we want, but as of today WinXP runs happily in 192MB, with 384MB being a break-even point for most people... I've heard explanations from the uneducated saying "it's BSD causing the bloat" but that's just retarded... I run BSD on my 64MB Pentium and it's quite the speedy weasel. I don't understand why OSX needs 512MB as a minimum. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 01:31:09 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 18:31:09 +1200 Subject: Looking for a few NEC upd6145s Message-ID: I'm contemplating a project using a upd6145 "SPI interfaced On-Screen Display" chip. If I have the era right, it's from about 1993, and would have been used inside TVs and VCRs to crate menu/overlay text for setting preferences. There's one on eBay right now, but I hate to do this kind of work with one chip and no spares. Also, I can't seem to find the specs on it. There is at least one project out there using it, so I could probably determine all the pins from where it fits in the circuit, but a datasheet is always handy. So... before I dig too deeply, does anyone here know of a vendor that might have 2-3 of these? I'd probably settle for a brand/model number for a sighting if anyone happens to be into TV guts. Thanks for any pointers, -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 3 01:33:05 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 00:33:05 -0600 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604022225290686.2679A753@10.0.0.252> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <443063AA.6040107@pacbell.net> <200604022012.09683.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604022130380573.26476FED@10.0.0.252> <4430AB41.90701@DakotaCom.Net> <200604022225290686.2679A753@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4430C1A1.3000207@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I think the hardest machines to program for are the ones with "not quite > enough" registers. Programming an IBM 1620 is easy--there are no > accumulators, so there isn't much choice. Even a single accumulator calls > out a certain programming style. But, say 3 or 4 registers gets you taking > time to think about how to best use them. On the other hand, with the CDC > Cyber 200, you had 256 64 bit registers, so you could keep just about > everything in registers--no tough thought there. But on the 808x, there > are just few enough and they're orthogonal enough to make you think. I would say un-orthogonal myself. Other than the 8080,6800 & 6502 I can't think of any other architecture styles for 8 bit cpu's. Hindsight has proven that they are smallest practical computer systems with 16k for the OS and 48k for user space programs. Offhand two index registers, a stack frame pointer, base data pointer and three accumulators seem to be about right. Add a program counter and that brings you to 7 registers. More than that you are moving data around to use 'free' registers. > Cheers, > Chuck From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon Apr 3 01:38:49 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 23:38:49 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <4430C1A1.3000207@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <443063AA.6040107@pacbell.net> <200604022012.09683.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604022130380573.26476FED@10.0.0.252> <4430AB41.90701@DakotaCom.Net> <200604022225290686.2679A753@10.0.0.252> <4430C1A1.3000207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4430C2F9.8030005@DakotaCom.Net> woodelf wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I think the hardest machines to program for are the ones with "not quite >> enough" registers. Programming an IBM 1620 is easy--there are no >> accumulators, so there isn't much choice. Even a single accumulator >> calls >> out a certain programming style. But, say 3 or 4 registers gets you >> taking >> time to think about how to best use them. On the other hand, with the >> CDC >> Cyber 200, you had 256 64 bit registers, so you could keep just about >> everything in registers--no tough thought there. But on the 808x, there >> are just few enough and they're orthogonal enough to make you think. > > I would say un-orthogonal myself. Other than the 8080,6800 & 6502 > I can't think of any other architecture styles for 8 bit cpu's. > Hindsight has proven that they are smallest practical computer systems > with 16k for the OS and 48k for user space programs. > Offhand two index registers, a stack frame pointer, base data > pointer and three accumulators seem to be about right. Add a program > counter and that brings you to 7 registers. More than that you are > moving data around to use 'free' registers. The 8051 family offers a different approach (CODE + DATA). Many of the PICs have seriously perverse ideas of what a processor should look like :-/ And, 8x300 probably sets the standard for a "RISC 8" machine. I liked the 2650 (?) but it was short-lived. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon Apr 3 01:45:51 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 23:45:51 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604022217140885.26721A96@10.0.0.252> References: <200604022217140885.26721A96@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4430C49F.5060305@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/3/2006 at 12:46 AM William Donzelli wrote: > >> Come to think about it - asking anyone anything about assembly in an >> interview these days is pretty moot. > > Yeah, I know. But I don't want to hire the kid out of school who just did > his homework for grades. I want the kid who worked outside of class > assignments purely for the fun of it. I want the kid who just can't get > enough. You're bucking a trend. Seems like very few are in it for anything more than the paycheck. I am always amazed at how few people even bother to repair things, etc. "Hey, it's BROKE! What do you have to LOSE???" > In short, I want another me. I believe that any organization benefits most > from self-starters and bootleg-project fanatics, not from obedient drones > who fit neatly into the hierarchy. But then I'm a great fan of Peter > Drucker and Gerard Fairtlough. > > But yeah, assembly language, keypunches and listings are from days gone Assembly language is still used quite a lot in the embedded systems world. Here, you figure out what you *need* to do a job -- and then cut it in half :-( Often, that means writing in ASM because the compilers and architectures just don't lend themselves well to "tight code" (when your product cost is a few dollars, you don't waste *anything*! :> ) > by--and they'll not be back. But I'll bet I can still find a way to pick > out a dedicated self-starter. I don't even care of the person taking the > gimmick test doesn't get the gimmick. But I'd cross him or her off the > list automatically if he or she didn't insist on knowing the answer. > > And you'll note that I used the word "programmer", not "coder". I prefer "software engineer" as most "programmers" are little more than "coders". Note how few people can start a project from a CLEAN sheet of paper (vs. how many can modify something that already exists) From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 3 02:49:43 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 23:49:43 -0800 Subject: Ultima Underworld In-Reply-To: <4430991D.3090905@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4430991D.3090905@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: At 4:40 AM +0100 4/3/06, Jules Richardson wrote: >yeah yeah, it's a game and I don't normally do game posts :-) Does >anyone happen to have a copy? I was watching the lad playing some 3D >adventure game on the playstation 2 earlier and it brought back >memories of playing Ultima back in the early 90's on my old 486 PC >and just how darn good that game was. Other than the low screen res >by modern standards, I reckon it should have stood the test of time >pretty well. Wow, I'd forgotten about that one! I should have the copy I bought when it came out, but who knows where on earth it is. IIRC, that was pretty impressive for 256 colour VGA. >(off to look for more early 90's classics I think :-) Commanche Attack Helicopter (I think that's the right name) comes to mind, it is the most impressive game I've ever seen running on a 486/33 with 640x480 256 colour. Of course the Eye of Beholder games were great fun. My all time favorite is "Master of Orion", though "Warlords II" is a close second. In both cases the Mac version is the best, as you can play the Mac version at greater than 640x480. "Master of Orion" will still run under Classic on Mac OS X, sadly it's been a long time since I played "Warlords II", I forget which version of Mac OS broke it, but it was a long time ago. I should try to find my PC disks, as I first bought both for the PC. Either that or I need to get something like "Basilisk II" running so I can run them under emulation. I usually manage at least a couple games of "Master of Orion" every year. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Apr 3 01:58:37 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 08:58:37 +0200 Subject: Ultima Underworld Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06681603@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I am pretty sure I have Ultima IV (4 floppies) in the attic, and Comanche ... does ring a bell. I also have Xwing on 5 floppies, but I seem to remember an other game on 8 or even 10 floppies, (no, not Win3.11) but I cannot remember the name. Will look for it this evening! - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: maandag 3 april 2006 9:50 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; > General; "Discussion:" > Subject: Re: Ultima Underworld > > At 4:40 AM +0100 4/3/06, Jules Richardson wrote: > >yeah yeah, it's a game and I don't normally do game posts :-) Does > >anyone happen to have a copy? I was watching the lad playing some 3D > >adventure game on the playstation 2 earlier and it brought back > >memories of playing Ultima back in the early 90's on my old > 486 PC and > >just how darn good that game was. Other than the low screen res by > >modern standards, I reckon it should have stood the test of > time pretty > >well. > > Wow, I'd forgotten about that one! I should have the copy I > bought when it came out, but who knows where on earth it is. > IIRC, that was pretty impressive for 256 colour VGA. > > >(off to look for more early 90's classics I think :-) > > Commanche Attack Helicopter (I think that's the right name) > comes to mind, it is the most impressive game I've ever seen > running on a > 486/33 with 640x480 256 colour. Of course the Eye of > Beholder games were great fun. > > My all time favorite is "Master of Orion", though "Warlords > II" is a close second. In both cases the Mac version is the > best, as you can play the Mac version at greater than > 640x480. "Master of Orion" will still run under Classic on > Mac OS X, sadly it's been a long time since I played > "Warlords II", I forget which version of Mac OS broke it, but > it was a long time ago. I should try to find my PC disks, as > I first bought both for the PC. Either that or I need to get > something like "Basilisk II" running so I can run them under > emulation. I usually manage at least a couple games of > "Master of Orion" every year. > > Zane > > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 3 02:13:26 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 01:13:26 -0600 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <4430C49F.5060305@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200604022217140885.26721A96@10.0.0.252> <4430C49F.5060305@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <4430CB16.4090802@jetnet.ab.ca> Don Y wrote: > I prefer "software engineer" as most "programmers" are little > more than "coders". Note how few people can start a project > from a CLEAN sheet of paper (vs. how many can modify something > that already exists) I guess I belong to the 'coders' class. I like quad paper myself. :) > . Right now I am trying for a clean new 18 bit cpu design that is 30 years late if I ever stop modifying the design. I picked up Knuth for programing ideas rather than sneeky tricks that you find here and there when I write software for this beast. Note I am planning 16k for the OS and 48k for user programs since I only ordered 64k of memory. Ben alias Woodelf From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Apr 3 02:25:41 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2006 23:25:41 -0800 Subject: Should I track down an M8268 (KK11-A)? In-Reply-To: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F11CD40B1@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F11CD40B1@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <200604030025.42188.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Julian, On Wednesday 29 March 2006 07:38, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > I was just curious, for those who own them, is the KK11-A cache module > for the 11/34 worth acquiring? How much does it boost performance of > the machine, and in what areas? Perhaps you missed my previous comments. Here they are again. Sorry to all the folks that've already seen them... Cheers, Lyle ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Should I track down an M8268 (KK11-A)? Date: Wednesday 29 March 2006 09:04 From: Lyle Bickley To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" --snip-- I've done extensive benchmarks with and without cache and found that cache can make significant performance enhancements. Here's a brief summary of my findings of cache speed enhancement: Large FORTRAN compiles and MACRO, assemblies run on average 44% faster and large LINKs run 56% faster. Integer benchmarks like HANOI run 57% faster Floating point benchmarks like single precision Whetstone run 19.4% faster Double precision benchmarks like Whetstone run 16.9% faster. BTW: I have both FP and cache in my 11/34A (11/34C ;-) BTW2: I was surprised that cache helped performance as much as it did in my 11/34 considering that I'm using fast MOS (MS11-L) memory - and the cache was designed as a "kicker" for much slower memory... -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 04:25:36 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 21:25:36 +1200 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <4430C1A1.3000207@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <443063AA.6040107@pacbell.net> <200604022012.09683.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604022130380573.26476FED@10.0.0.252> <4430AB41.90701@DakotaCom.Net> <200604022225290686.2679A753@10.0.0.252> <4430C1A1.3000207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 4/3/06, woodelf wrote: > Other than the 8080,6800 & 6502 I can't think of any > other architecture styles for 8 bit cpu's. 1802 - 8-bit accumulator, 16 16-bit registers, any one of which can be an index register, a stack pointer or the program counter. Register-to-register transfers are 8-bits at a time, through the accumulator. -ethan From bert at brothom.nl Mon Apr 3 05:55:21 2006 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 11:55:21 +0100 Subject: Awesome ARPAnet documentary In-Reply-To: <441E67AD.4020700@brothom.nl> References: <1142713927.5712.4.camel@fortran.babel> <441D58EE.2000702@brothom.nl> <6d6501090603191407r1af6816cod4e285eb63f18bfb@mail.gmail.com> <441E67AD.4020700@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <4430FF19.5080104@brothom.nl> Bert Thomas wrote: > Chris Halarewich wrote: > >> try this link it might work better >> >> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7426343190324622223&q=arpanet Did anyone save the movie? It appears to be gone... :-( From fryers at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 05:14:25 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 11:14:25 +0100 Subject: Awesome ARPAnet documentary In-Reply-To: <4430FF19.5080104@brothom.nl> References: <1142713927.5712.4.camel@fortran.babel> <441D58EE.2000702@brothom.nl> <6d6501090603191407r1af6816cod4e285eb63f18bfb@mail.gmail.com> <441E67AD.4020700@brothom.nl> <4430FF19.5080104@brothom.nl> Message-ID: All, On 4/3/06, Bert Thomas wrote: > Bert Thomas wrote: > > Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > >> try this link it might work better > >> > >> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7426343190324622223&q=arpanet > > Did anyone save the movie? It appears to be gone... :-( Yes. There is a copy somewhere on my work PC.. When I find where the google video player has hidden it, I'll dump it to some http space. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Apr 3 05:13:25 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 06:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hospital surplus? (was: OT: Microsoft in the medical field was Re: OT: video signal question) In-Reply-To: <1143905689.16400.28.camel@fortran.babel> References: <200603230913.JAA16218@citadel.metropolis.local> <1143905689.16400.28.camel@fortran.babel> Message-ID: <200604031017.GAA12089@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> The piece of equipment I was scanned by had spent [its] working life >> surrounded by radioactive material. Admittedly in lead containers. >> but even so, I suspect the hospital would be wary of disposing of it >> to a memeber of the public. > Why? Radiation is like light - shine a flashlight at something > (non-phosphoric, pedants! ;) and it doesn't continue glowing. Things > that have been exposed to radiation don't radiate. I guess that's why breeder reactors don't exist. Seriously, while I'm not a radiologist, I'd expect this to depend on the form of the radiation: I'd hazard a guess that X-rays and gamma (and generally electromagnetic) you're right, but alpha, beta, or neutrons, you're wrong. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Apr 3 05:24:45 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 06:24:45 -0400 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 02 Apr 2006 20:30:29 MDT." Message-ID: <200604031024.k33AOjdZ002070@mwave.heeltoe.com> Richard wrote: > >Once it was Microsoft, so I expected this. The other time it was a >game company. It says a lot in an interview when the candidate gets mad when you ask them to solve a hard problem on the spot :-) It also says a lot when they just 'dig in' regardless of the answer they come up with. those moments are often a harbinger of the future. -brad From vp at cs.drexel.edu Mon Apr 3 11:30:53 2006 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 12:30:53 -0400 Subject: HP9000/345 SCSI Problem Message-ID: <20060403112609.9F434200D485@mail.cs.drexel.edu> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I don't know if it's any help, but there's a CE manual (a boardswapper > guide) over on http://www.hpmuseum.net. [...] Indeed, this is a very good site, highly recommended for HP computer-related manuals. I did consult the CE guide you mention, but it is totally confusing and this is the one that got me in trouble in the first place. This guide gives an example of the boot screen with all the on-board peripherals. This could not be further from the truth: (a) the high speed HP-IB controller is mutually exclusive with the SCSI controller, and (b) the ordering of the items in this menu (and hence which keys to press to select various options) is wrong. Great! The former misunderstanding caused me to expect to see the SCSI controller even when the fast HP-IB controller was connected to the motherboard. In fact, all I had to do to get the SCSI controller to come to life was to unplug the fast HP-IB daugherboard from the motherboard. The second misunderstanding caused me to waste my time trying to get the machine to switch to the serial port. I did not have a VDU for this machine, and I did not want to spend time trying to find one just to switch to the the console to the serial port), so I was typing the sequence blind. Since the ordering was wrong I was not actually configuring the serial port. I was rescued by the NetBSD HP300 FAQ which gives the correct order for the probe. Anyway, back to the SCSI problem. I tried an ancient Quantum 100Mb drive (yes Mb, not Gb), and the machine passed its SCSI diagnostics but failed to detect the drive. This may well be because the drive does not contain an HPUX boot code although I am sure I did not see the drive access light come on during the search for boot devices. **vp From waisun.chia at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 06:52:16 2006 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 19:52:16 +0800 Subject: Awesome ARPAnet documentary In-Reply-To: References: <1142713927.5712.4.camel@fortran.babel> <441D58EE.2000702@brothom.nl> <6d6501090603191407r1af6816cod4e285eb63f18bfb@mail.gmail.com> <441E67AD.4020700@brothom.nl> <4430FF19.5080104@brothom.nl> Message-ID: The movie is an AVI...perfectly playable on any *nix system capable of xine.. -rw-r--r-- 1 waisun waisun 122941852 Mar 21 10:34 ComputerNetworksTheH.avi I don't have any online servers to distribute this, but if anyone can handle this, contact me offlist... On 4/3/06, Simon Fryer wrote: > All, > > On 4/3/06, Bert Thomas wrote: > > Bert Thomas wrote: > > > Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > > > >> try this link it might work better > > >> > > >> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7426343190324622223&q=arpanet > > > > Did anyone save the movie? It appears to be gone... :-( > > Yes. There is a copy somewhere on my work PC.. When I find where the > google video player has hidden it, I'll dump it to some http space. > > Simon > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to > philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is > the utility of the final product." > Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh > > From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 07:19:54 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 08:19:54 -0400 Subject: Hospital surplus? In-Reply-To: <1143905689.16400.28.camel@fortran.babel> References: <200603230913.JAA16218@citadel.metropolis.local> <1143905689.16400.28.camel@fortran.babel> Message-ID: <443112EA.7060408@gmail.com> Tore S Bekkedal wrote: > On Thu, 2006-03-23 at 09:13 +0000, Stan Barr wrote: >> Don Y said: >>> You want to be wary of medical surplus since you have no idea >>> *what* it was used for... X-( >> The piece of equipment I was scanned by had spent it's working life >> surrounded by radioactive material. Admittedly in lead containers. >> but even so, I suspect the hospital would be wary of disposing of it >> to a memeber of the public. > Why? Radiation is like light - shine a flashlight at something > (non-phosphoric, pedants! ;) and it doesn't continue glowing. Things > that have been exposed to radiation don't radiate. Not all radiation is like that. An object exposed to a neutron source can be rendered radioactive. Peace... Sridhar From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Apr 3 08:05:50 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 09:05:50 -0400 Subject: Another Panasonic HHC In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 31 Mar 2006 15:57:23 EST." <200603311557.23686.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200604031305.k33D5oCA008586@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > >I sure wouldn't mind finding something of the sort that would run under linux >with various target processors, for picking apart code... I'm probably oversimplifying, but objdump -D does a reasonable job. and you can find gcc for most cpus (where wordsize >= 16). objdump is part of binutils, which is part of the gnu toolchain. I've even used it on raw binary files, by telling binutils what the cpu and byte order was... (not that I would ever disassemble anyone else's code. nah ah. not me. no way.) :-) -brad From Useddec at aol.com Mon Apr 3 08:25:23 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 09:25:23 EDT Subject: Should I track down an M8268 (KK11-A)? Message-ID: <2ac.11ed97c.31627c43@aol.com> I saw this earlier, and didn't get a chance to respond. I think I have both boards and the over the top connectors if anyone is interested. Paul From kyle at lodge.glasgownet.com Mon Apr 3 08:38:32 2006 From: kyle at lodge.glasgownet.com (Kyle Gordon) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 14:38:32 +0100 Subject: Awesome ARPAnet documentary In-Reply-To: References: <1142713927.5712.4.camel@fortran.babel> Message-ID: <200604031438.32444.kyle@lodge.glasgownet.com> There's a copy at http://h316.hachti.de/download/ComputerNetworksTheH.avi if anyone still needs it. If that fails, then I can stick a copy up elsewhere for folks. Kyle On Monday 03 April 2006 12:52, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > The movie is an AVI...perfectly playable on any *nix system capable of > xine.. > > -rw-r--r-- 1 waisun waisun 122941852 Mar 21 10:34 ComputerNetworksTheH.avi > > I don't have any online servers to distribute this, but if anyone can > handle this, contact me offlist... > > On 4/3/06, Simon Fryer wrote: > > All, > > > > On 4/3/06, Bert Thomas wrote: > > > Bert Thomas wrote: > > > > Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > >> try this link it might work better > > > >> > > > >> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7426343190324622223&q=arpan > > > >>et > > > > > > Did anyone save the movie? It appears to be gone... :-( > > > > Yes. There is a copy somewhere on my work PC.. When I find where the > > google video player has hidden it, I'll dump it to some http space. > > > > Simon > > > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to > > philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is > > the utility of the final product." > > Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh -- Kyle Gordon kyle at lodge.glasgownet.com http://lodge.glasgownet.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Apr 3 08:48:48 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 06:48:48 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <4430C2F9.8030005@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: >From: Don Y ----snip--- > >The 8051 family offers a different approach (CODE + DATA). >Many of the PICs have seriously perverse ideas of what >a processor should look like :-/ >And, 8x300 probably sets the standard for a "RISC 8" machine. > >I liked the 2650 (?) but it was short-lived. Hi F8 Dwight From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Apr 3 09:33:05 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 09:33:05 -0500 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604022117220406.263B4A06@10.0.0.252> References: <200604021724190872.2565F15E@10.0.0.252> <44307ACB.1090607@pacbell.net> <200604022117220406.263B4A06@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44313221.9040701@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/2/2006 at 8:30 PM Jim Battle wrote: > >> One question posed on this list not all that long ago was: what is the >> shortest program that you can run on an 8080 where the program will zero >> all memory, including itself. or something like that. The puzzle is >> probably equally interesting on many other cpus. >> >> I've heard of people asking these types of questions during job >> interviews -- and I think it is an asinine way of judging someone's >> abilities. > > I disagree. Consider that, as a manager, you might be looking at a whole > herd of people who have perfect university transcripts and impressive > resum?s. That mostly tells me that (A) they knew how to be students and > take tests and (B) had a very talented writer for their resum?s. Neither > tells me anything about their on-the-job capabilities and more importantly, > their ability to program. And I've interviewd enough people who can lay > down an impressive line of BS. ... > An assembly language programmer that doesn't have the dscipline to know his > instruction sets in detail and use that knowledge either writes horribly > bloated code or spends inordinate amounts of time because, for instance, he > doesn't realize that the 16-bit increment instructions on the 8080 don't > modify any condition codes or that the 8 bit increments don't modify the > carry bit. > > Getting an indication of this right off the bat is much easier than trying > to figure out (A) where am I going to find another programmer to do what > this guy was hired to do and (B) how am I going to fire the current guy > without him filing a dispute with the state department of labor. Sure, if the person advertises themselves as an expert on a particular machine, then some trick or obscure question about that machine may be appropriate. If you ask someone a question that has a particular very clever answer, they get it right or they don't. If they get it right, is it because they've heard it before or because they are clever? If they get it wrong, does it mean that they aren't smart? I've also found in most situations there isn't an oversupply of applicants. Tossing them out based on a trick question is capricious. It is much better to ask them a relevant question. Here is a block of memory. Count the number of "1" bits in it. If they get it right, then ask them how they might make if run faster. The best situation is when people make a mistake in a corner case. Then you can give them an example where their code doesn't work and ask them to make it work -- then you get to see them debug. Interviews often don't leave enough time to get in to a real problem, so toy problems are used. In real life most problems are complex enough that they never work the first time and debugging is required. When I ask a coding question, I always preface it with: I don't care what language you use; I don't care about punctuation; you can even make up a language. The only thing I care is that the algorithm performs the task I specified. If I'm interviewing someone who has only ever used vhdl and the company I'm at uses verilog, I don't care a whit -- if they are capable, it will be a few weeks before they capable in verilog too. The fact that they don't know the difference between "a = b;" vs "#0 a = b;" vs "a = #0 b;" is not important. From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Apr 3 09:40:37 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:40:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hospital surplus? (was: OT: Microsoft in the medical field was Re: OT: video signal question) In-Reply-To: <1143905689.16400.28.camel@fortran.babel> Message-ID: > Why? Radiation is like light - shine a flashlight at something > (non-phosphoric, pedants! ;) and it doesn't continue glowing. Things > that have been exposed to radiation don't radiate. I guess you did not do the silver dime experiment in physics lab. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Apr 3 09:44:31 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:44:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <4430C49F.5060305@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: > Assembly language is still used quite a lot in the embedded systems > world. Here we go again. These days, assembly language programming is like cannibalism - lots of people insist that it is still very much alive, but nobody has actually ever seen it. Apologies to the 100 or so engineers in the entire field that may still use it. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Apr 3 09:46:20 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 09:46:20 -0500 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604022117220406.263B4A06@10.0.0.252> References: <200604021724190872.2565F15E@10.0.0.252> <44307ACB.1090607@pacbell.net> <200604022117220406.263B4A06@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4431353C.6090002@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/2/2006 at 8:30 PM Jim Battle wrote: > >> One question posed on this list not all that long ago was: what is the >> shortest program that you can run on an 8080 where the program will zero >> all memory, including itself. or something like that. The puzzle is >> probably equally interesting on many other cpus. >> >> I've heard of people asking these types of questions during job >> interviews -- and I think it is an asinine way of judging someone's >> abilities. > > I disagree. Consider that, as a manager, you might be looking at a whole > herd of people who have perfect university transcripts and impressive > resum?s. Ah, this is funny. I was once asked the following trick question. Say you have a singly linked list. This list might be a simple chain, or it might loop on itself. For reasons that can't be explained, you are allowed to use only two memory locations to decide if the list loops or not. After a couple questions to clarify, it was allowed that speed wasn't important and that the size of an integer and a pointer were the same. A 0 pointer marks the end of the list. I quickly answered with a dumb, brute force solution: one location is a pointer, one is a counter. Increment the counter every time you advance the pointer. If the counter hits a maximal value, you know the list loops, otherwise you'll hit the end of list value first. (and no, the counter can't overflow even with a maximally long list since at least two of the 2^N locations are used by the scratch locations). The questioner was peeved with me. I had answered it and he agreed that it satisfied the question, but I could tell he discounted it because it wasn't the clever answer that he had in mind. In fact, I'm sure he hadn't even though of my answer, and I'm also sure he wasn't the clever person who thought up the question. At some point he heard this problem with the clever answer and from then on he looked down on anybody who hadn't heard it yet. The clever answer is to have two pointers. At each step of the algorithm, one pointer advances two steps and the other pointer advances three steps (any relatively prime pair of increments would work). After the pointers are advanced, check if they are the same. If there is a loop, eventually the two pointers will coincide, even if they have to race around the loop a few times before their phases align. Never mind the fact that actually coding it is a bit of a mess since at each of the places where the pointers must be advanced, each intermediate step must be checked for the end of list condition. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 3 10:11:43 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 10:11:43 -0500 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <44313221.9040701@pacbell.net> References: <200604021724190872.2565F15E@10.0.0.252> <44307ACB.1090607@pacbell.net> <200604022117220406.263B4A06@10.0.0.252> <44313221.9040701@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060403100456.04e7f130@mail> At 09:33 AM 4/3/2006, Jim Battle wrote: >If they get it right, is it because they've heard it before or because they are clever? If they get it wrong, does it mean that they aren't smart? I've also found in most situations there isn't an oversupply of applicants. Tossing them out based on a trick question is capricious. Companies feel free to waste entire days with applicants this way. It's rude. You think they'd worry about false negatives and false positives, the frequency of which I would think would increase as the questions get trickier and the applicants get smarter. It relies too heavily on the smartness of the interviewer, too. Phrase the question icorrectly and you'll get a "wrong" answer. Interpret the answer incorrectly or fail to recognize a second correct answer, boom, this method goes out the window and now you've rejected a very smart fish. And it's not as if the companies are pulling these questions out of their own brains. They're cribbing them from other sources. It's as if applicants need to study the canon of tricky questions as well as the fundamentals they're based on. All this for the pleasure of "And if you don't think it's acceptable to ask you to work on Saturdays, then don't bother showing up for work again on Sunday morning." - John From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Apr 3 10:25:04 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 11:25:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <4431353C.6090002@pacbell.net> References: <200604021724190872.2565F15E@10.0.0.252> <44307ACB.1090607@pacbell.net> <200604022117220406.263B4A06@10.0.0.252> <4431353C.6090002@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200604031547.LAA13639@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I was once asked the following trick question. Say you have a singly > linked list. This list might be a simple chain, or it might loop on > itself. For reasons that can't be explained, you are allowed to use > only two memory locations to decide if the list loops or not. After > a couple questions to clarify, it was allowed that speed wasn't > important and that the size of an integer and a pointer were the > same. A 0 pointer marks the end of the list. > I quickly answered with a dumb, brute force solution: one location is > a pointer, one is a counter. [...if couter overflows it loops...] > The clever answer is to have two pointers. At each step of the > algorithm, one pointer advances two steps and the other pointer > advances three steps (any relatively prime pair of increments would > work). 1 and 2 is actually the canonical pair of advancement steps. The two-pointer way actually has practical advantages. "Speed [isn't] important" isn't quite the same thing in practice as "speed truly doesn't matter at all". Your way, clever as it is (and actually, I consider it quite clever, not least because you really did take advantage of the latitude the questioner carelessly gave you) will not terminate in even vaguely reasonable time in most real-world cases, whereas the two-pointer method will. To draw a rather stretched analogy. this is somewhat like saying that you can do any in-core sort in O(1) time because you can't store more than a fixed number of objects: theoretically true but practically useless. A friend of mine was once asked something like "You are given an 8x8 array of bits and supposed to return its transpose. How long would it take you to wtiyr?". The interviewer was surprised to hear "Probably about 15 minutes". Thing is, the solution this person was thinking of was something along the lines of (to use C-ish syntax) 64-bit-int transpose(64-bit-int v) { v = (v & 0xf0f0f0f00f0f0f0f0f) | ((v & 0x0f0f0f0f00000000) >> 28) | ((v & 0x00000000f0f0f0f0) << 28); v = (v & 0xcccc3333cccc3333) | ((v & 0x3333000033330000) >> 12) | ((v & 0x0000cccc0000cccc) << 12); return( (v & 0xaa55aa55aa55aa55) | ((v & 0x5500550055005500) >> 7) | ((v & 0x00aa00aa00aa00aa) << 7) ); } which I think is a clever adaptation of a standard blitting trick. (Perhaps fortunately, the interviewer was not following a script, and asked enough followup questions to determine that.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Apr 3 11:28:09 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 12:28:09 -0400 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 03 Apr 2006 10:44:31 EDT." Message-ID: <200604031628.k33GS9Dc029016@mwave.heeltoe.com> William Donzelli wrote: > >These days, assembly language programming is like cannibalism - lots of >people insist that it is still very much alive, but nobody has actually >ever seen it. > >Apologies to the 100 or so engineers in the entire field that may still >use it. I have to agree. I do a reasonable amount of paid work on micros and almost all of it is in C. The only exception is PIC's, which are generally done in assembler. don't get me wrong - I love assembler, but most paying customers want the work in C for maintainability. All the AVR and HC11/12 (6800) work I've done has been in C as well as a handful of odd-ball cpus. Even 8085's. And these days most of that is shifting to small pin count ARM SOC's like the SAM7S. The joke these days is that the CPLD next to the CPU has 4x the pins! -brad From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 3 11:33:28 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 10:33:28 -0600 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44314E58.9040202@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >>Assembly language is still used quite a lot in the embedded systems >>world. > > > Here we go again. > > These days, assembly language programming is like cannibalism - lots of > people insist that it is still very much alive, but nobody has actually > ever seen it. > > Apologies to the 100 or so engineers in the entire field that may still > use it. With the amount of PDP-8 emulators I have seen on the web ASM programs are alive and well. :) From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Apr 3 11:32:04 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 11:32:04 -0500 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604031547.LAA13639@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200604021724190872.2565F15E@10.0.0.252> <44307ACB.1090607@pacbell.net> <200604022117220406.263B4A06@10.0.0.252> <4431353C.6090002@pacbell.net> <200604031547.LAA13639@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44314E04.3090708@pacbell.net> der Mouse wrote: >> I was once asked the following trick question. Say you have a singly >> linked list. This list might be a simple chain, or it might loop on >> itself. For reasons that can't be explained, you are allowed to use >> only two memory locations to decide if the list loops or not. After >> a couple questions to clarify, it was allowed that speed wasn't >> important and that the size of an integer and a pointer were the >> same. A 0 pointer marks the end of the list. > >> I quickly answered with a dumb, brute force solution: one location is >> a pointer, one is a counter. [...if couter overflows it loops...] > >> The clever answer is to have two pointers. At each step of the >> algorithm, one pointer advances two steps and the other pointer >> advances three steps (any relatively prime pair of increments would >> work). > > 1 and 2 is actually the canonical pair of advancement steps. OK, this just confirms this is a "well known" trick question. If someone was to ask me this question again in an interview and I answered it in four seconds, does it mean I'm any smarter than I was a few years ago when I first heard it? As an example of a good question (and one that is on-topic for this list), I was asked this during an interview in 1986. The interviewer was Carl Alsing, whom you might recognize as the manager of the microkids in the book, The Soul of a New Machine. He asked if I had a bunch of Apple II programs and wanted to continue to use them but my Apple II had died and all I had available was an IBM PC, what could I do about it. After answering, "write an emulator," he probed with questions about how long I thought it would take to write, what parts if it I thought would be the hardest, how would I validate it, what speed I could expect to achieve, etc. That type of interview requires that the interviewer be an active participant that has to think on his/her feet as well, and recognizes that in the real world there are often multiple approaches to the solution having varying tradeoffs. The black and white world of clever interview questions is typically irrelevant. As an aside, I did take that job and had a cube directly across from Carl's office. I had read The Soul of a New Machine a few years before but the details were hazy, and anyway, I didn't know for a few months that Carl was in the book until a coworker told me. I then went back and read the book again. The section where the author summarizes Carl's appearance and the impression he first makes was just startling -- in a paragraph the author really did capture truths that I hadn't realized fully myself (such as giving the impression of being a lot less tall than he is). Being the only point of reference that I could verify, and finding it so dead right, it made me much more inclined to believe the rest of the book was accurate. From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Apr 3 11:36:05 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 12:36:05 -0400 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 03 Apr 2006 10:11:43 CDT." <6.2.3.4.2.20060403100456.04e7f130@mail> Message-ID: <200604031636.k33Ga5At030729@mwave.heeltoe.com> John Foust wrote: >At 09:33 AM 4/3/2006, Jim Battle wrote: >>If they get it right, is it because they've heard it before or because they a >re clever? If they get it wrong, does it mean that they aren't smart? I've a >lso found in most situations there isn't an oversupply of applicants. Tossing > them out based on a trick question is capricious. If interviewers are deciding on candidates based on the "right" or "wrong" answer than you should be happy if they don't offer you a job, you don't want to work there. The point of asking those sorts of questions is not the answer. It's to watch how the person approaches the problem. Any answer (right or wrong) is a bonus, but it's not required. Not everyone "tests" well. I, personally, would be been delighted with the "counter hits max value" solution to the looping list problem. I liked that one :-) Sometimes brute force is the right thing. Interviewing is somewhat of an art, but good techniques can be taught. And they *do* work - trust me - I have a lot of proof. If you get into an interview and people jerk you around and waste your time, be grateful - they are helping you decide you don't want to work there! -brad From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 3 11:36:20 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 10:36:20 -0600 Subject: OT: Interview tactics (was: Programmer's conundrums) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 02 Apr 2006 20:57:34 -0700. <44309D2E.8060009@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: In article <44309D2E.8060009 at DakotaCom.Net>, Don Y writes: > I think a better way is to have someone pseudo-code a well-known > algorithm. You can then note *how* they approach it (top down, > bottom up, linearly, etc.). Then, engage them in a discussion of > the merits of their implementation as well as where it falls down. As long as you don't make me write it out long-hand on a pad of paper. God, what a waste of time. Microsoft had me do that too, but I thought at least give me notepad for cryin' out loud. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 3 11:43:56 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 10:43:56 -0600 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 03 Apr 2006 06:24:45 -0400. <200604031024.k33AOjdZ002070@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: In article <200604031024.k33AOjdZ002070 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, Brad Parker writes: > Richard wrote: > > > >Once it was Microsoft, so I expected this. The other time it was a > >game company. > > It says a lot in an interview when the candidate gets mad when you ask > them to solve a hard problem on the spot :-) > > It also says a lot when they just 'dig in' regardless of the answer they > come up with. I didn't get mad, I just 'dug in' as you say. But I didn't get the "trick" to the puzzle so it just sat there unfinished. Basically I felt it was a waste of precious interview time because while I might often get stuck on this little trick puzzles, I very rarely get stuck while writing software and even then I don't stay stuck for very long. This becomes evident when coding with me or looking at code I've done, but its not evident by shoving random brain teasers in front of me and demanding I solve them in 10 minutes. I'm not a seal in a circus act. > those moments are often a harbinger of the future. ...or maybe not since you presumbaly wouldn't hire the person who was put off by being asked to solve an irrelevant puzzle. This reasoning sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 3 11:46:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 10:46:50 -0600 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 03 Apr 2006 10:44:31 -0400. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > These days, assembly language programming is like cannibalism - lots of > people insist that it is still very much alive, but nobody has actually > ever seen it. It had a brief resurgance in programmable graphics pipelines because the first couple generations of GPUs had such low instruction counts (8 instructions per pixel, for instance) that it didn't make any sense to write code in a high-level language. Now that the GPU instruction counts have gone up (hundreds or thousands of instructions per pixel), it has pretty much gone to high level shader languages. However, game programmers stay versed in assembly shaders because they still have to support those early generations of GPUs. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 3 11:49:53 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 10:49:53 -0600 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 03 Apr 2006 09:46:20 -0500. <4431353C.6090002@pacbell.net> Message-ID: In article <4431353C.6090002 at pacbell.net>, Jim Battle writes: > The clever answer is to have two pointers. At each step of the=20 > algorithm, one pointer advances two steps and the other pointer advances=20 > three steps (any relatively prime pair of increments would work). After=20 > the pointers are advanced, check if they are the same. If there is a=20 > loop, eventually the two pointers will coincide, even if they have to=20 > race around the loop a few times before their phases align. Never mind=20 > the fact that actually coding it is a bit of a mess since at each of the=20 > places where the pointers must be advanced, each intermediate step must=20 > be checked for the end of list condition. This algorithm for loop detection is in Knuth's Art of Computer Programming. I think MS asked me *this* question too (or maybe it was the game company) and I recognized the pattern and the appropriate algorithm and where to look it up. I just didn't have the algorithm memorized. I too felt I was "dinged" for not having memorized the algorithm, but it seemed that I was mildly forgiven for knowing where to look it up. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 3 11:53:16 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 10:53:16 -0600 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 03 Apr 2006 10:11:43 -0500. <6.2.3.4.2.20060403100456.04e7f130@mail> Message-ID: In article <6.2.3.4.2.20060403100456.04e7f130 at mail>, John Foust writes: > And it's not as if the companies are pulling these questions out of > their own brains. They're cribbing them from other sources. It's as > if applicants need to study the canon of tricky questions as well as > the fundamentals they're based on. Yes, because the questions are cribbed I've seen books documenting the kinds of 'brain teasers' that MS and its imitators like to use. So not only are the questioners cribbing these puzzles from standard sources, the "prepared" interviewers are cribbing the puzzles (and answers) from the same sources. I would not be surprised that if you made a concentrated effort to study all these brain teaser puzzles and their solutions that you could breeze through this part of an interview. But what would it show? > All this for the pleasure of "And if you don't think it's acceptable > to ask you to work on Saturdays, then don't bother showing up > for work again on Sunday morning." For game companies, that's definately true. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 3 12:24:48 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 11:24:48 -0600 Subject: Tektronix catalogs? Have 1982, 1985 want > 1985 In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 29 Mar 2006 22:12:43 +0100. <000001c65375$86623560$c901a8c0@tempname> Message-ID: In article <000001c65375$86623560$c901a8c0 at tempname>, writes: > I have these in PDF that I could make available (I have no idea > which ones will have what you want though): I'm interested in anything that has information on display terminals, graphics terminals or their workstation/development systems. I think that would be these from your list: > Product Catalogue 1977 > Product Catalogue 1989 > Product Catalogue 1993 > For fun I went over to Tek's home page and searched a little. > "9200" brings up this page: > > http://www.tek.com/site/mn/mnfinder_results/1,1095,,00.html > > A few clicks and one painless registration procedure later > and I am the proud owner of the 41 page LAD935 Instruction > Manual. If you look closer, that 41-pg document is just describing the SBus support for the DAS9200. It isn't general documentation on a DAS9200 itself. I tried looking for other documentation on older Tektronix products through this interface and nothing useful was found. Just notices that all of these things are "end of lifed". -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 3 12:26:13 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 11:26:13 -0600 Subject: old HP manuals + HP Journal In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 31 Mar 2006 19:20:34 +0100. <003901c654ef$ce628d80$c901a8c0@tempname> Message-ID: In article <003901c654ef$ce628d80$c901a8c0 at tempname>, writes: > Al Kossow wrote: > > > I wonder what happened to all of the content they took down several > > years ago (things that included mid-90's test gear like the 16500C) > > Well the contents of one agilent ftp site were gathered up and made > available (a year or so ago I guess) to anyone who asked. I guess that was before I joined the list. Any terminal or graphics related info in there? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From fernande at internet1.net Mon Apr 3 12:51:32 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 13:51:32 -0400 Subject: Need help using cgsix in IPX Message-ID: <443160A4.8060809@internet1.net> Hello All, I've got an IPX that I've started working on a while back, but sort of forgot about. I've already done the NVRAM battery, messed around with Openboot, and done a NetBSD install. I haven't done anything with it since.... I still know very little about NetBSD, or any other Unix for that matter. Any way..... I have this Sony GDM-1602 sitting here. It's max refresh rate seems to much less than what the cgsix in the IPX wants to work with. I tried specifying resolution and refresh rate in Openboot, but it still doesn't work. Assuming I can use this monitor with the IPX, I don't know enough to figure it out. If I flip the monitor off and on a few times, I can see the it's getting a signal, but the characters are sort of skewed across the screen about 3 times. Any help would be appreciated! Thanks, Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From allain at panix.com Mon Apr 3 12:41:26 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 13:41:26 -0400 Subject: Hospital surplus? (was: OT: Microsoft in the medical fieldwas Re: OT: video signal question) References: <200603230913.JAA16218@citadel.metropolis.local> <1143905689.16400.28.camel@fortran.babel> Message-ID: <00ef01c65745$e0a7efa0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > Why? Radiation is like light - shine a flashlight at something > (non-phosphoric, pedants! ;) and it doesn't continue glowing. Cotton must be phosphoric then. Hit it with a strobe unit and it will glow for a second or two afterwards. John A. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 3 12:53:59 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 10:53:59 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604031053590264.2926EEFF@10.0.0.252> To those of you 8-hour-per-day 9-to-5 folks, my apologies. Like punch cards and assembly coding, I hail from a bygone era when schedules were tight and machine resources scarce, even for manufacturers. A lot of "skunk works" type of activity was usually necessary to make a qualifying benchmark for a contact that could more than 100 jobs to the company payroll. But we were selling multimillion dollar systems. Odd hours to get machine access over extended periods of time, while still having to attend daytime meetings, flying cross country with a trunkfull of tapes to cage a few days of available time on someone's system. The really exceptional Field Engineers had it worse--they might not see home for weeks at a time, getting off a plane expecting to go home, only to find another ticket waiting for them at the gate. You needed special people for that kind of work. People who might grumble a bit, but who would go the extra mile. People who could think on their feet. No internet or email or laptops--just the telephone. Anything--even gimmick tests--to separate the wheat from the chaff was useful. As I've stated, the outcome of the gimmick test is unimportant. What is important is the way it was approached and the emotional reaction of the applicant. There are an awful lot of applicants out there who got a computer science degree because they couldn't make it as a trombone player. (On the other hand, one of the finest programmers I knew would take a six-month sabbatical when business was slow to go play his bone in Las Vegas--he had several albums to his credit). Like the Conestoga wagon, those days are gone and won't return. Now, it's get a bunch of Peecees (or something that looks a lot like them internally) and modify some off-the-shelf solution. More cost-efficient, I suppose, but less romantic. Sorry for being too old, Chuck From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 3 13:13:54 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 14:13:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <4431353C.6090002@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at Apr 03, 2006 09:46:20 AM Message-ID: <20060403181355.3AF5773029@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jim Battle once stated: > > Ah, this is funny. I was once asked the following trick question. Say > you have a singly linked list. This list might be a simple chain, or it > might loop on itself. For reasons that can't be explained, you are > allowed to use only two memory locations to decide if the list loops or > not. After a couple questions to clarify, it was allowed that speed > wasn't important and that the size of an integer and a pointer were the > same. A 0 pointer marks the end of the list. [ snip ] > The clever answer is to have two pointers. At each step of the > algorithm, one pointer advances two steps and the other pointer advances > three steps (any relatively prime pair of increments would work). After > the pointers are advanced, check if they are the same. If there is a > loop, eventually the two pointers will coincide, even if they have to > race around the loop a few times before their phases align. Never mind > the fact that actually coding it is a bit of a mess since at each of the > places where the pointers must be advanced, each intermediate step must > be checked for the end of list condition. Gee, I think I could do that in one memory location---cache the value of the first pointer. Keep following the list, checking each address against the cached value. If you hit 0, it terminates, otherwise if the address matches the cached value, you have a loop. The above method is cleverness (not) for cleverness sake. -spc (Or are you *forced* to use two memory locations?) From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 3 13:18:12 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 11:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <20060403181355.3AF5773029@linus.area51.conman.org> from Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner at "Apr 3, 6 02:13:54 pm" Message-ID: <200604031818.k33IIC8Y005606@floodgap.com> > -spc (Or are you *forced* to use two memory locations?) top jsr srand sta memory_location_two jsr find_the_loop_using_location_one_anyway bne top rts -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Time is what keeps everything from happening at once. ---------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 3 13:20:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 11:20:09 -0700 Subject: Hospital surplus? (was: OT: Microsoft in the medical fieldwas Re: OT: video signal question) In-Reply-To: <00ef01c65745$e0a7efa0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <200603230913.JAA16218@citadel.metropolis.local> <1143905689.16400.28.camel@fortran.babel> <00ef01c65745$e0a7efa0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200604031120090308.293EE3EB@10.0.0.252> On 4/3/2006 at 1:41 PM John Allain wrote: >Cotton must be phosphoric then. Hit it with a strobe >unit and it will glow for a second or two afterwards. Somewhere I read that natural cotton right off the plant doesn't fluoresce--it's the whiteners added (laundry detergent even has them) that are added to make the cotton WHITE that are the culprit. Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Apr 3 13:29:59 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 14:29:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <20060403181355.3AF5773029@linus.area51.conman.org> References: <20060403181355.3AF5773029@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: <200604031831.OAA14871@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Gee, I think I could do that in one memory location---cache the value > of the first pointer. Keep following the list, checking each address > against the cached value. If you hit 0, it terminates, otherwise if > the address matches the cached value, you have a loop. That works only if the place you start from is part of the loop. If there is a non-loopy part which runs into a loop, your algorithm will compute forever when started in the non-loopy part. Consider A->B->C->D->E->C, started at A. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Apr 3 13:30:52 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 20:30:52 +0200 Subject: RA6800ML References: <442D836E.3080307@ais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20059@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> The visit to the attic proved useful :-) I found the following PaperBYTE Books (TM): - Tiny assembler 6800 Version 3.1 - 6800 Tracer - an aid to 6800 program debugging - RA6800ML - an M6800 Relocatable Macro Assembler - LINK68 - an M6800 Linking Loader The RA6800ML is *not* thin, it is 170+ pages. Consider the Tiny assembler source listing no longer lost, Holger. It is in the book I have :-) Further I found from Techincal System Consultants (TSC) : - TSC 6800 Text Editing System - TSC 6800 Debug Package - Software Library for 6800 - Volume 5 Tilte: "Space Voyage" As Pete collects StarTrek games, he might be interested in that last one. I can remember that I entered all hex code in my 6800 system to play that StarTrek game. I think I will enter the source listing and adapt (easy) the code for 6809. For the chaps that have the Blinkenlight Core Board with the optional 32k RAM I can make an S record file available ... - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Holger Veit Verzonden: vr 31-03-2006 21:30 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: RA6800ML >>>/Now, I remember these paperbooks were not too thick (I once />>>/had Emmerichs Tiny Assembler and MONDEB from that class - />>>/unfortunately got lost - TinyAsm at least can be copied from />>>/old 1977 Byte issues), so I'am not sure whether it will wear />>>/out more than by simply reading the book. Unless you have a />>>/multi-page scanner where you'd have to destroy the spine. /> At least the three articles of the TinyAsm are there, and I could make scans of them on demand. You can find an index of Byte at http://www.devili.iki.fi/library/publication/10.en.html so if you have specific articles (limited!) you're interested in I could pdf them. I won't scan everything due to lack of time, and I won't make them publicly due to copyright concerns, but we could talk about few articles. Yes, the tiny assmebler was rather structured, a nice example how to write good assembler code. Unfortunately, the Byte articles only has a hex dump - the paperbyte book had a commented disassembly, but I lost that eventually :-( Regards Holger This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 3 13:32:28 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 19:32:28 +0100 Subject: Ultima Underworld In-Reply-To: References: <4430991D.3090905@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44316A3C.5030108@yahoo.co.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 4:40 AM +0100 4/3/06, Jules Richardson wrote: >> yeah yeah, it's a game and I don't normally do game posts :-) Does >> anyone happen to have a copy? I was watching the lad playing some 3D >> adventure game on the playstation 2 earlier and it brought back >> memories of playing Ultima back in the early 90's on my old 486 PC and >> just how darn good that game was. Other than the low screen res by >> modern standards, I reckon it should have stood the test of time >> pretty well. > > Wow, I'd forgotten about that one! I should have the copy I bought when > it came out, but who knows where on earth it is. IIRC, that was pretty > impressive for 256 colour VGA. Hmm, if you could find it, that'd be great! :-) My memory of it is that it wasn't really much different from the equivalent modern Playstation games - just that the resolution was way less and there was less texture to everything. But I'd still like to see if my memory matches the real thing :-) >> (off to look for more early 90's classics I think :-) > > Commanche Attack Helicopter (I think that's the right name) comes to > mind, it is the most impressive game I've ever seen running on a 486/33 > with 640x480 256 colour. Hmm, yeah... Commanche Maximum Overkill or something like that? I was never that into the games side of things, but there were some pretty impressive ones around during the early 90's given the limitations of the hardware. cheers J. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Apr 3 13:35:15 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 20:35:15 +0200 Subject: Ultima Underworld References: <4430991D.3090905@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C2005A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> And further I found in the attic the following software (game and "serious"): (in brackets is the number of floppies). - StarTrek (EGA) - StarTrek 25th anniversary (4) - Alone in the dark (4) - Flight Sim 4 - Elite+ - Hardvard Graphics V2.12 (3) - Lotus 123 release 2 (2) - dBASE III Plus V1.1 (2) - DrawPerfect (3) - Microsoft Quick C (2) - Harrier (3) - Comanche (3) - F15 III (5) - Wing Commander 2 (7) - Wing Command 2 Digitized Speech (3) - Dynamics A10 - X Wing (5) - Wolfenstein 3D - Spear of Destiny (2) - Ultima Underworld (3) I don't know how well they would read ... - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Jules Richardson Verzonden: ma 03-04-2006 05:40 Aan: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Ultima Underworld yeah yeah, it's a game and I don't normally do game posts :-) Does anyone happen to have a copy? I was watching the lad playing some 3D adventure game on the playstation 2 earlier and it brought back memories of playing Ultima back in the early 90's on my old 486 PC and just how darn good that game was. Other than the low screen res by modern standards, I reckon it should have stood the test of time pretty well. I've got a copy of the game (actually, I can't remember which of the two variants it is) on tape back in the UK, but won't be back there for a few months (plus I have no idea if the tape will still be readable) I've just installed DOSEMU / Freedos under Linux on the laptop that I have with me and it's happily playing an Ultima Underworld demo that I found on the 'net, so there's every chance the proper game would work. (I don't have sound going yet, but I don't have sound configured under Linux itself yet - I *think* DOSEMU's capable of providing soundblaster emulation for programs that it runs) cheers! Jules (off to look for more early 90's classics I think :-) This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 3 13:43:36 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 14:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604031831.OAA14871@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Apr 03, 2006 02:29:59 PM Message-ID: <20060403184337.5A40173029@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great der Mouse once stated: > > > Gee, I think I could do that in one memory location---cache the value > > of the first pointer. Keep following the list, checking each address > > against the cached value. If you hit 0, it terminates, otherwise if > > the address matches the cached value, you have a loop. > > That works only if the place you start from is part of the loop. If > there is a non-loopy part which runs into a loop, your algorithm will > compute forever when started in the non-loopy part. > > Consider A->B->C->D->E->C, started at A. Hmm ... good point. -spc (But who constructs circular lists like that? 8-P From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 3 13:45:56 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 12:45:56 -0600 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <20060403181355.3AF5773029@linus.area51.conman.org> References: <20060403181355.3AF5773029@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: <44316D64.5060508@jetnet.ab.ca> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > Gee, I think I could do that in one memory location---cache the value of > the first pointer. Keep following the list, checking each address against > the cached value. If you hit 0, it terminates, otherwise if the address > matches the cached value, you have a loop. The above method is cleverness > (not) for cleverness sake. That only works if the first pointer is part of the loop. > . > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 3 13:47:29 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 12:47:29 -0600 Subject: Hospital surplus? In-Reply-To: <200604031120090308.293EE3EB@10.0.0.252> References: <200603230913.JAA16218@citadel.metropolis.local> <1143905689.16400.28.camel@fortran.babel> <00ef01c65745$e0a7efa0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <200604031120090308.293EE3EB@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44316DC1.7040105@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Somewhere I read that natural cotton right off the plant doesn't > fluoresce--it's the whiteners added (laundry detergent even has them) that > are added to make the cotton WHITE that are the culprit. And here I thought it was my eyeballs glowing after the first strobe :) > Cheers, > Chuck > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 3 13:53:12 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 11:53:12 -0700 Subject: Tektronix catalogs? Have 1982, 1985 want > 1985 Message-ID: <25EA32C9-88A1-4044-9A95-DD7A7BD3B692@bitsavers.org> > I tried looking for other documentation on older Tektronix > products through this interface and nothing useful was found. The best way to find logic analyzer manuals is test equipment manual brokers. The DAS 9200 was not my favorite (we had moved to 16500's by then) so I haven't spent time digging for them. I have the svc docs for the 9100, which I need to get on line. A few years ago, I bought the complete set of TEK catalogs on eBay from the late 50's forward. They're in the queue to be scanned, but it's not something that can be done quickly. Most of the material on the 4050 series is on bitsavers. I have a few other 4xxx series manuals scanned but not on line yet. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Apr 3 13:51:50 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 14:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <20060403184337.5A40173029@linus.area51.conman.org> References: <20060403184337.5A40173029@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: <200604031855.OAA15036@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> If there is a non-loopy part which runs into a loop, [...] >> Consider A->B->C->D->E->C, started at A. > Hmm ... good point. > -spc (But who constructs circular lists like that? 8-P I have. Not *deliberately*, mind you, at least not often. :-) Most of the loop detectors I've written have been in debugging output code, which shouldn't fall over even if the linked list is mildly corrupt. As for deliberately building such lists, I can see uses for them if you have mapcar, or something like it, and want to feed certain inputs a repeating pattern with a nonrepeating initial part. (Relatively rare uses, admittedly.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 3 13:58:32 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 11:58:32 -0700 Subject: Tektronix catalogs? Have 1982, 1985 want > 1985 Message-ID: It would be nice to find the TEK 4100 series documentation. Brokers tend not to have TEK display terminal manuals. They were the last gasp of stand-alone TEK graphics displays before workstations killed the whole market off. My last job before going to Apple was as the architect of AED's VME and QBus display board set, which emulated 41xx's (and had things like X running on-card). From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Apr 3 14:15:20 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 20:15:20 +0100 Subject: Hospital surplus? In-Reply-To: <00ef01c65745$e0a7efa0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <200603230913.JAA16218@citadel.metropolis.local> <1143905689.16400.28.camel@fortran.babel> <00ef01c65745$e0a7efa0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <44317448.8060102@gjcp.net> John Allain wrote: >> Why? Radiation is like light - shine a flashlight at something >> (non-phosphoric, pedants! ;) and it doesn't continue glowing. > > Cotton must be phosphoric then. Hit it with a strobe > unit and it will glow for a second or two afterwards. It's the whitening agents in soap powder. Try it with a UV source - even the el-cheapo LED torches off eBay. Then try just the soap powder. Oh, and if you really want to kill a lot of time with a basin of hot disinfectanty water, shine said UV source on the inside of your fridge. Even if you think it's clean. Gordon. From jvdg at sparcpark.net Mon Apr 3 15:18:02 2006 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 22:18:02 +0200 Subject: Looking for 4-CPU NT4 for SGI VWS 540 Message-ID: Greetings. I am looking for the 4-CPU licensed version of Windows NT4 for my SGI 540 Visual Workstation. I have only the CD set that came with my 320, which is licensed for up to 2 CPU's, and will not utilise all 4 Xeons in my 540. Anyone have a set they'd be willing to part with, please? ,xtG .tsooJ -- Early to rise, Early to bed, Makes a man healthy, But socially dead. -- Joost van de Griek From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 3 15:35:11 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 16:35:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <44316D64.5060508@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Apr 03, 2006 12:45:56 PM Message-ID: <20060403203513.9D10E7302B@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great woodelf once stated: > > Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > > Gee, I think I could do that in one memory location---cache the value of > > the first pointer. Keep following the list, checking each address against > > the cached value. If you hit 0, it terminates, otherwise if the address > > matches the cached value, you have a loop. The above method is cleverness > > (not) for cleverness sake. > > That only works if the first pointer is part of the loop. Either I'm not that smart, or in all my years as a programmer, I've never come across a linked list where part of it is in a loop, not all of it. -spc (Perhaps I'm lucky?) From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Apr 3 16:00:13 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 17:00:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <20060403203513.9D10E7302B@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: > Either I'm not that smart, or in all my years as a programmer, I've never > come across a linked list where part of it is in a loop, not all of it. A "typical" application would be in a state machine, where the non-loop bit at the head would be used for initialization. OK, a pretty specific instance that almost nobody will actually encounter, but I did once. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 3 16:05:21 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 14:05:21 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <20060403203513.9D10E7302B@linus.area51.conman.org> References: <20060403203513.9D10E7302B@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: <200604031405210950.29D624CA@10.0.0.252> On 4/3/2006 at 4:35 PM spc at conman.org wrote: > Either I'm not that smart, or in all my years as a programmer, I've never >come across a linked list where part of it is in a loop, not all of it. > > -spc (Perhaps I'm lucky?) I've certainly seen it in DOS FAT entries; before that in other allocation mechanisms. In other words, the problem described does occur in the real world. Linked lists are very useful tools, but it's prudent to guard against corruption by real-world hardware and programs. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 3 15:58:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 21:58:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9000/345 SCSI Problem In-Reply-To: <20060403112609.9F434200D485@mail.cs.drexel.edu> from "Vassilis Prevelakis" at Apr 3, 6 12:30:53 pm Message-ID: > > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > I don't know if it's any help, but there's a CE manual (a boardswapper > > guide) over on http://www.hpmuseum.net. [...] > > Indeed, this is a very good site, highly recommended for HP Agreed. You may have noticed I've provided a little input for that site ... > computer-related manuals. I did consult the CE guide you mention, but > it is totally confusing and this is the one that got me in trouble in > the first place. OK.... IO was looking on there for docs for my new toy (an HP9817 that I picked up -- litterally -- last week), and noticed a manual for your 9000/345. Alas I have no experiecen at all of HP9000/300 series machines. -tony From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Apr 3 16:34:41 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 16:34:41 -0500 Subject: Should I track down an M8268 (KK11-A)? In-Reply-To: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F11C9D645@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: What are you asking for them? > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Useddec at aol.com > Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 8:25 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Should I track down an M8268 (KK11-A)? > > I saw this earlier, and didn't get a chance to respond. I > think I have both boards and the over the top connectors if > anyone is interested. > > > Paul > From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Apr 3 17:13:55 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 17:13:55 -0500 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604031813.55412.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 02 April 2006 10:30 pm, Richard wrote: > In article <44307ACB.1090607 at pacbell.net>, > Jim Battle writes: > > I've heard of people asking these types of questions during job > > interviews -- and I think it is an asinine way of judging someone's > > abilities. > > Microsoft, and companies that aspire to be Microsoft by imitating > everything they do, has a tendency to ask "brain teaser" questions on > job interviews. Personally I always thought this was a stupid way to > evaluate an employee. I've yet to see any explanation of why this is > something that Microsoft does, but I'm sure they have one. > > I've been asked those questions and I always thought to myself "uh... > yeah, this doesn't reflect anything I do as a software engineer, it > just reflects whether or not I "get" this little mind teaser trick". > > Once it was Microsoft, so I expected this. The other time it was a > game company. Although I don't know why they bothered with the mind > teaser since it seems all they cared about were cheap bodies who spent > their free time playing video games anyway. I find this sort of thing annoying, and usually let them know that I feel that way. Which may end up with me not getting the job, but what the heck... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jnugen at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 17:20:03 2006 From: jnugen at gmail.com (James Nugen) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 18:20:03 -0400 Subject: AT&T Pixel Machine Available Message-ID: <44319F93.5030803@gmail.com> I'm moving and need to get rid of this: AT&T Pixel Machine Model: PXM 964dex Serial No.: PXM-10178-FB Date: OCT/02/89 I have the machine, the interface card to a VME-based Sun workstation, and some manuals. I was unable to locate any software, however. Here is a PDF that describes the machine: http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~amana/research/parallel.pdf Local pickup only! This thing is heavy and I don't want to mess around shipping it. BTW, I offered it to CHM, but they weren't interested. --- James Nugen From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Apr 3 17:23:41 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 17:23:41 -0500 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <4430AB41.90701@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <200604022130380573.26476FED@10.0.0.252> <4430AB41.90701@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200604031823.41412.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 03 April 2006 12:57 am, Don Y wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 4/2/2006 at 7:12 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> And why it was necessary to stuff parameters into registers, when it's > >> easy enough to put 'em on the stack, among other things. > > > > Well, memory fetches are slower than register references for one. It > > requires stack space, for another. And the 8080 code to access the > > arguments, while not awful, is somewhat clumsy: > > > > lxi h, 2 > > dad sp > > mov c,m > > inx h > > mov b,m > > > > ....or something like that to grab a word off the stack into BC. > > I think the real reason (?) goes to a difference in cultures between > register rich and register poor machines IN THAT TIMEFRAME. I think you're probably right... > E.g., if you are writing code for a 68xx, you have little choice > but to do everything in memory addressing. Whereas if you are > using 8080/8085/Z80 et al., you just get used to *keeping* things > in registers (I can recall spending lots of time evaluating > which arguments I would put in which registers so I could > *keep* them there -- or somewhere else in the register set -- for > the duration of the algorithm... XCHG being a favorite tool > in those cases!) Yeah. Though XTHL was another one... > Moving to something like a 99000 can be terribly distressing > for the register rich crowd to become accustomed to! ;) I found, though, when I was doing some z80 stuff a while back that most of the time I'd use one pair for an address pointer and maybe one other besides the accumulator and that was it, over 90% of the time. Oh, and the little monitor program that I was playing with didn't push a parameter on to the stack, it put it inline, right after the call to some subroutine -- the called code would pick it up and use it and adjust the stack pointer to just past it for the return. :-) I have to dig out that code, anyhow, there were a few little tricks in there that I think I want to use again. Like funneling everything through a dispatch table, so that un-programmed EPROM showing up as "FFFF" in some entries would be handled automatically ("CRASH!" :-), ferinstance. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Apr 3 17:18:00 2006 From: als at thangorodrim.de (als at thangorodrim.de) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 00:18:00 +0200 Subject: Hospital surplus? (was: OT: Microsoft in the medical fieldwas Re: OT: video signal question) In-Reply-To: <00ef01c65745$e0a7efa0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <200603230913.JAA16218@citadel.metropolis.local> <1143905689.16400.28.camel@fortran.babel> <00ef01c65745$e0a7efa0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20060403221800.GB28282@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 01:41:26PM -0400, John Allain wrote: > > Why? Radiation is like light - shine a flashlight at something > > (non-phosphoric, pedants! ;) and it doesn't continue glowing. > > Cotton must be phosphoric then. Hit it with a strobe > unit and it will glow for a second or two afterwards. You tried that experiment with cotton that has been washed, right? Almost all detergents (especially those for washing white fabric) have whiteners added to make the fabric look whiter than white: they trap UV light and release white light with a slight blue tinge. You just triggered those residual chemicals. Plain cotton (as in: plucked from the plant and only washed with pure water) should not exhibit this behaviour. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Apr 3 17:32:57 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 17:32:57 -0500 Subject: Another Panasonic HHC In-Reply-To: <200604031305.k33D5oCA008586@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200604031305.k33D5oCA008586@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200604031832.57436.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 03 April 2006 09:05 am, Brad Parker wrote: > "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > >I sure wouldn't mind finding something of the sort that would run under > > linux with various target processors, for picking apart code... > > I'm probably oversimplifying, but objdump -D does a reasonable job. and > you can find gcc for most cpus (where wordsize >= 16). > > objdump is part of binutils, which is part of the gnu toolchain. Now that you mention it, I did bump into that at one point. And since then have forgotten about it. That's part of my problem with this stuff, I haven't spent enough time with some of the basic tools... > I've even used it on raw binary files, by telling binutils what the cpu > and byte order was... > > (not that I would ever disassemble anyone else's code. nah ah. not me. no > way.) > > :-) I'll have to give that a try and see what it comes up with, then. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 3 17:40:32 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 16:40:32 -0600 Subject: Tektronix catalogs? Have 1982, 1985 want > 1985 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 03 Apr 2006 11:53:12 -0700. <25EA32C9-88A1-4044-9A95-DD7A7BD3B692@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <25EA32C9-88A1-4044-9A95-DD7A7BD3B692 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > The best way to find logic analyzer manuals is test equipment manual > brokers. Yeah, I'm looking for a manual on the PEP301. I have a few commercial sources I can try if I can't dig up anything online. > The DAS 9200 was not my favorite (we had moved to 16500's by then) so > I haven't spent time digging for them. [...] I didn't buy the lot with the DAS 9200 in it :-). I bought the lot with the terminals that you connect to the 9200. I'm really looking for information about the terminals, which I assume might be bured in the 9200 doc set, but I don't know for sure. The terminals are models 9201T and 9200T. I'm assuming they are essentially identical based on model number, probably differing in the amount of scrollback memory or bitplanes. They are color terminals, so I'm after the full set of escape sequences, if they can be determined. I don't have the terminals on hand yet, I'm currently arranging shipping. If anyone is interested in a 4105A, 9200T, 9201T, let me know. I will make a more detailed offer when they arrive. > A few years ago, I bought the complete set of TEK catalogs on eBay > from the late 50's forward. Sweet! Just out of curiosity, what year does it end? Are you willing to reveal how much it cost? > Most of the material on the 4050 series is on bitsavers. I have a few > other 4xxx > series manuals scanned but not on line yet. I found the 4105A Programmer's Reference through manx, but I'm still looking for information about the 9200/9201 terminals. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Apr 3 17:41:25 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 17:41:25 -0500 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060403100456.04e7f130@mail> References: <200604021724190872.2565F15E@10.0.0.252> <44313221.9040701@pacbell.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060403100456.04e7f130@mail> Message-ID: <200604031841.25988.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 03 April 2006 11:11 am, John Foust wrote: > At 09:33 AM 4/3/2006, Jim Battle wrote: > >If they get it right, is it because they've heard it before or because > > they are clever? If they get it wrong, does it mean that they aren't > > smart? I've also found in most situations there isn't an oversupply of > > applicants. Tossing them out based on a trick question is capricious. > > Companies feel free to waste entire days with applicants this way. > It's rude. Indeed. There's a certain casual labor temp agency that I've used from time to time over several decades. But now because I'm "not in their system" they want me to come in and spend several hours going through some stupid "orientation" which involves watching videos (which I *hate* having to do) before they'll work me. So this agency isn't going to be seeing me any time soon. Others all seem to feel quite easy about wanting me to come in and fill out paperwork and similar nonsense without promising anything in return and being totally unwilling in the process to handle some of the process over the phone, when it would save _me_ a nontrivial amount of time and gas. I get the feeling sometimes that they're looking for "good drones" or something in this market. :-( -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 3 17:42:18 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 15:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hospital surplus? (was: OT: Microsoft in the medical fieldwas Re: OT: video signal question) In-Reply-To: <00ef01c65745$e0a7efa0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <200603230913.JAA16218@citadel.metropolis.local> <1143905689.16400.28.camel@fortran.babel> <00ef01c65745$e0a7efa0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20060403154151.W87013@shell.lmi.net> > Why? Radiation is like light - shine a flashlight at something > (non-phosphoric, pedants! ;) and it doesn't continue glowing. So,... radiation is not contagious :-) From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Apr 3 17:58:30 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 15:58:30 -0700 Subject: Hospital surplus? (was: OT: Microsoft in the medical fieldwas Re: OT: video signal question) In-Reply-To: <20060403154151.W87013@shell.lmi.net> References: <200603230913.JAA16218@citadel.metropolis.local> <1143905689.16400.28.camel@fortran.babel> <00ef01c65745$e0a7efa0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <20060403154151.W87013@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1144105111.18156.45.camel@r003519> On Mon, 2006-04-03 at 15:42 -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Why? Radiation is like light - shine a flashlight at something > > (non-phosphoric, pedants! ;) and it doesn't continue glowing. > > So,... radiation is not contagious :-) Well not if you talk about irradiated people (ie one irradiated person can't irradiate another except in specific ways). :-) However, one radiation source can make another object radioactive (under the right conditions). Had loads of "fun" doing this with a "neutron cannon". You can make all sorts of stuff "radioactive" that way! Other techniques are used (but essentially the same) for creating radio-pharmaceuticals (ie take a material and bombard it with the appropriate type of radiation...neutrons, alpha, gamma...and you'll end up with a radioactive version of it...or something related). -- TTFN - Guy From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 3 18:03:06 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 17:03:06 -0600 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 03 Apr 2006 17:00:13 -0400. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > Either I'm not that smart, or in all my years as a programmer, I've never > > come across a linked list where part of it is in a loop, not all of it. > > A "typical" application would be in a state machine, where the non-loop > bit at the head would be used for initialization. Another example is a sequence that starts out nearly chaotic, but eventually settles into a period N attractor loop. When you iterate orbits on the interior of the Mandelbrot set, many will have this characteristic. They look chaotic initially, but are attracted to a periodic attractor inside M and become periodic. There are also periodic attractors with arbitrarily large periods, so they may look "chaotic" to your finite buffer size :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Apr 3 18:26:10 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 19:26:10 -0400 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 03 Apr 2006 10:43:56 MDT." Message-ID: <200604032326.k33NQAGu023032@mwave.heeltoe.com> Richard wrote: > >...or maybe not since you presumbaly wouldn't hire the person who was >put off by being asked to solve an irrelevant puzzle. This reasoning >sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy. actually, if you 'dug in', as you say, I'd give you 50% credit :-) as I said before, getting the answer isn't the point. -brad From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 3 18:43:13 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 17:43:13 -0600 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 03 Apr 2006 19:26:10 -0400. <200604032326.k33NQAGu023032@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: In article <200604032326.k33NQAGu023032 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, Brad Parker writes: > as I said before, getting the answer isn't the point. True, but even from that perspective I find this sort of brain teaser activity irrelevant to software engineering skills. Good software engineering isn't brain teaser activity. Its methodical analysis and deductive reasoning. Yes, brain teasers involve deductive reasoning as well but since most of them hinge on a "trick" and not a simple backwards analysis of the data to find the root cause of the failure (like most debugging sessions), I don't find them useful indicators of software engineering ability. That's what I'm calling into question -- that these brain teaser questions somehow yield insight into the software engineering abilities of the interviewee. I say this as someone that is pretty crappy at brain teasers yet my coworkers and managers have consistently rated my software engineering and debugging skills on the high end of the range. What is the evidence that these questions have predictive value for software engineers? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 3 18:59:47 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 16:59:47 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums Message-ID: <4431B6F3.D7FF3492@rain.org> My experience indicates that anyone who is very good at what they do, regardless of the field, would qualify in your description. It is the mediocre who seems to be more interested in talk than doing. Unfortunately, our society is becoming more talk rather than action oriented. Getting the job done seems to be less of a priority with new people to the workplace from everything I've heard. BUT to be able to get the job done quickly under trying circumstances does take experience and the work ethic to gain that experience, and that does leave the future in doubt. > You needed special people for that kind of work. People who might grumble > a bit, but who would go the extra mile. People who could think on their > feet. No internet or email or laptops--just the telephone. Anything--even > gimmick tests--to separate the wheat from the chaff was useful. As I've > stated, the outcome of the gimmick test is unimportant. What is important > is the way it was approached and the emotional reaction of the applicant. > > Like the Conestoga wagon, those days are gone and won't return. Now, it's > get a bunch of Peecees (or something that looks a lot like them internally) > and modify some off-the-shelf solution. More cost-efficient, I suppose, > but less romantic. > > Sorry for being too old, > Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 3 19:04:43 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 19:04:43 -0500 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4431B81B.9010101@mdrconsult.com> Richard wrote: > ...or maybe not since you presumbaly wouldn't hire the person who was > put off by being asked to solve an irrelevant puzzle. This reasoning > sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy. In the context of a job interview? If you presumed to second-guess what I present as relevant, I certainly wouldn't hire you. Every job I've ever had (and every job I've ever run, for that matter) occasionally involved some gratuitous hoop-jumping. If you're going to get pissy about that and I'm responsible for your performance, that's something I'd like to find out during the interview. Doc From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 3 19:21:11 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 18:21:11 -0600 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 03 Apr 2006 19:04:43 -0500. <4431B81B.9010101@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: In article <4431B81B.9010101 at mdrconsult.com>, Doc Shipley writes: > Every job I've ever had (and every job I've ever run, for that > matter) occasionally involved some gratuitous hoop-jumping. If you're > going to get pissy about that and I'm responsible for your performance, > that's something I'd like to find out during the interview. If the job consisted of solving brain teasers all day, you might have a point. Asking me how I would deal with an irate customer would be more to the point, not asking me how I can get three shepherds with two goats from one side of the river to the other with a broken boat and three toothpicks. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 3 20:01:03 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 21:01:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Apr 03, 2006 05:03:06 PM Message-ID: <20060404010103.EFBD873029@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard once stated: > > > In article , > William Donzelli writes: > > > > Either I'm not that smart, or in all my years as a programmer, I've never > > > come across a linked list where part of it is in a loop, not all of it. > > > > A "typical" application would be in a state machine, where the non-loop > > bit at the head would be used for initialization. > > Another example is a sequence that starts out nearly chaotic, but > eventually settles into a period N attractor loop. When you iterate > orbits on the interior of the Mandelbrot set, many will have this > characteristic. They look chaotic initially, but are attracted to a > periodic attractor inside M and become periodic. There are also > periodic attractors with arbitrarily large periods, so they may look > "chaotic" to your finite buffer size :-). Yes, I've written code like that, but in those cases I've used arrays, not linked lists (as the upper bounds for looping were set beyond which they were considered "infinite"). -spc (Not code to check the Mandelbrot system, but a chaotic system none-the-less, but under IRIX 4.0.1 (on topic) and a IBM PS/2 model 80 with 8514 graphics card (also on topic)) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 3 20:01:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 18:01:46 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <4431B6F3.D7FF3492@rain.org> References: <4431B6F3.D7FF3492@rain.org> Message-ID: <200604031801460515.2AAE93CE@10.0.0.252> On 4/3/2006 at 4:59 PM Marvin Johnston wrote: >BUT to be able to get the job done quickly under trying circumstances does take >experience and the work ethic to gain that experience, and that does leave the future >in doubt. Indeed it does. We seem to have increasingly become a 9-to-5 society of more-or-less interchangeable specialists. -------------- Only somewhat OT, if you want a view of how society is changing, check out the Wapo article by Leonard Sax: http://tinyurl.com/pnrx9 Where are our engineering entrepreneurs of tomorrow going to come from? Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 3 20:11:38 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 19:11:38 -0600 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 03 Apr 2006 21:01:03 -0400. <20060404010103.EFBD873029@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: In article <20060404010103.EFBD873029 at linus.area51.conman.org>, spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) writes: > > Another example is a sequence that starts out nearly chaotic, but > > eventually settles into a period N attractor loop. [...] > > Yes, I've written code like that, but in those cases I've used arrays, not > linked lists (as the upper bounds for looping were set beyond which they > were considered "infinite"). The algorithm is the same, whether its arrays or linked lists is simply an implementation detail :-). (Famous last words for a programmer!) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From bob099 at centurytel.net Mon Apr 3 20:40:33 2006 From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Choctaw Bob) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 20:40:33 -0500 Subject: Anyone have ideals for this guy? Message-ID: <4431CE91.3080807@centurytel.net> http://www.diycalculator.com/sp-hrrgcomp.shtml Our cunning plan is to design ? and hopefully one day build ? what we are calling the Heath Robinson Rube Goldberg (HRRB) computer. This would be a (possibly cut-down) version of our DIY Calculator . However, we don't intend to simply replicate Harry's work ? where would be the fun in that? Instead, we wish to create something even more on the "Cool Beans" side (if that's possible). What we're pondering is a beast that combines multiple technologies (relays, vacuum tubes, transistors, silicon chips, etc.). Imagine a row of glass-fronted wooden cabinets on the wall. Each is implemented in a different technology, and each contains some portion of the computer, such as the system clock, the ROM, the RAM, the ALU, the CPU's status and control logic, the CPU's addressing logic, and so forth. We will elaborate on this core concept in the following topics ? what we're trying to do here is to convey our "vision." The idea is to first come up with a specification for the functionality to be represented by each of the cabinets along with a well-defined interface into ? and out of ? each function/cabinet. This would facilitate different design teams tackling the different cabinets. Furthermore, as opposed to having the cabinets linked by bunches of cables, we were thinking of providing each cabinet with a wireless communications system (or maybe they could communicate via the building's power cables, since each cabinet will require a power supply anyway). This would (a) make things look nice and (b) allow the various cabinets to be located at arbitrary distances from each other. Note that this project could grow to such a size that we'd need a big facility to host the final machine and display it to its fullest effect (possibly a museum or an airport or ... Contact Us if you have any ideas ... all suggestions will be very gratefully received). From jnugen at gmail.com Mon Apr 3 20:42:17 2006 From: jnugen at gmail.com (James Nugen) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 21:42:17 -0400 Subject: AT&T Pixel Machine Available In-Reply-To: <44319F93.5030803@gmail.com> References: <44319F93.5030803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4431CEF9.50104@gmail.com> James Nugen wrote: > Local pickup only! This thing is heavy and I don't want to mess > around shipping it. Doh! As was pointed out to me in email, I forgot to mention where I'm located: Dublin, Ohio (near Columbus, Ohio) --- James Nugen From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 3 21:05:26 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 22:05:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Apr 03, 2006 07:11:38 PM Message-ID: <20060404020527.CA82C73029@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard once stated: > > > In article <20060404010103.EFBD873029 at linus.area51.conman.org>, > spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) writes: > > > > Another example is a sequence that starts out nearly chaotic, but > > > eventually settles into a period N attractor loop. [...] > > > > Yes, I've written code like that, but in those cases I've used arrays, not > > linked lists (as the upper bounds for looping were set beyond which they > > were considered "infinite"). > > The algorithm is the same, whether its arrays or linked lists is > simply an implementation detail :-). (Famous last words for a > programmer!) Not quite. With an array, one can start at the end (you do need to keep track of how big the array is) and work your way forward. -spc (Famous last words indeed ... 8-) From kawninja at cableone.net Mon Apr 3 21:55:05 2006 From: kawninja at cableone.net (Steve Phipps) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 21:55:05 -0500 Subject: Installing 3.5" drive in a TRS-80 Model 4P Message-ID: <003301c65793$2d835ab0$8a02a8c0@steve6isvpk5vy> Hi all, I've got an old Teac 3.5" drive (in 5.25" mount) with jumpers set as Drive 1 that I want to install in my TRS-80 Model 4P. Tried to tackle installing it today, but was unsuccessful. Supposedly the TRS-80 Model 1, 3, and 4 machines will read / write to older 3.5" drives with jumpered drive select. The 4P's drive cable is card edge only, so tried using a PC drive cable hooking up the original 5.25 drive and 3.5 drive using both the cable's end and middle jacks. The 4P wouldn't recognize either drive in any position. Anyone know what I'm doing wrong? Maybe it's due to the wire twist found on PC floppy cables? I'm about at my wits end trying to find a way to transfer TRS-80 DSK files from PC to 4P. Thanks, David From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Apr 3 21:58:51 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 22:58:51 -0400 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: References: <4431B81B.9010101@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20060404025850.GD20027@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 06:21:11PM -0600, Richard wrote: > > In article <4431B81B.9010101 at mdrconsult.com>, > Doc Shipley writes: > > > Every job I've ever had (and every job I've ever run, for that > > matter) occasionally involved some gratuitous hoop-jumping. If you're > > going to get pissy about that and I'm responsible for your performance, > > that's something I'd like to find out during the interview. > > If the job consisted of solving brain teasers all day, you might have > a point. So, you've never had to troubleshoot anything on the job? If employed correctly (ie, not pulled from a book, and if the interviewer is intelligent enough to have come up with it themselves), they're a good general intelligence test. There's a lot you can find out about potential employees by asking non-job-related questions. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Apr 3 22:08:22 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 22:08:22 -0500 Subject: Installing 3.5" drive in a TRS-80 Model 4P In-Reply-To: <003301c65793$2d835ab0$8a02a8c0@steve6isvpk5vy> References: <003301c65793$2d835ab0$8a02a8c0@steve6isvpk5vy> Message-ID: <4431E326.3070609@pacbell.net> Steve Phipps wrote: > Hi all, > > I've got an old Teac 3.5" drive (in 5.25" mount) with jumpers set as > Drive 1 that I want to install in my TRS-80 Model 4P. Tried to tackle > installing it today, but was unsuccessful. Supposedly the TRS-80 > Model 1, 3, and 4 machines will read / write to older 3.5" drives > with jumpered drive select. The 4P's drive cable is card edge only, > so tried using a PC drive cable hooking up the original 5.25 drive > and 3.5 drive using both the cable's end and middle jacks. The 4P > wouldn't recognize either drive in any position. > > Anyone know what I'm doing wrong? Maybe it's due to the wire twist > found on PC floppy cables? I'm about at my wits end trying to find a > way to transfer TRS-80 DSK files from PC to 4P. Yes, it is due to the twist in the cable. That is a PC invention. I suspect if you wire both of your drives to drive 1 it will work out OK. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Apr 3 22:20:29 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 23:20:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hospital surplus? (was: OT: Microsoft in the medical fieldwas Re: OT: video signal question) In-Reply-To: <20060403221800.GB28282@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <200603230913.JAA16218@citadel.metropolis.local> <1143905689.16400.28.camel@fortran.babel> <00ef01c65745$e0a7efa0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <20060403221800.GB28282@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <200604040322.XAA02812@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > You tried that experiment with cotton that has been washed, right? > Almost all detergents (especially those for washing white fabric) > have whiteners added [...] One more good reason to do your laundry with soap instead of detergent. (Laundry soap is not trivial to find. But it does exist.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 3 22:22:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 20:22:38 -0700 Subject: Installing 3.5" drive in a TRS-80 Model 4P In-Reply-To: <003301c65793$2d835ab0$8a02a8c0@steve6isvpk5vy> References: <003301c65793$2d835ab0$8a02a8c0@steve6isvpk5vy> Message-ID: <200604032022380670.2B2F8A63@10.0.0.252> On 4/3/2006 at 9:55 PM Steve Phipps wrote: >I've got an old Teac 3.5" drive (in 5.25" mount) with jumpers set as Drive >1 that I want to install in my TRS-80 Model 4P. Tried to tackle installing >it today, but was unsuccessful. Supposedly the TRS-80 Model 1, 3, and 4 >machines will read / write to older 3.5" drives with jumpered drive >select. The 4P's drive cable is card edge only, so tried using a PC drive >cable hooking up the original 5.25 drive and 3.5 drive using both the >cable's end and middle jacks. The 4P wouldn't recognize either drive in >any position. Tim mann, has a nice Q&A on this subject: http://tim-mann.org/trs80faq.html#[19] In general, you'll want to set the first drive select as DS0 and the second as DS1; straight (untwisted) cable on both drives--not a PC cable. Cheers, Chuck From jhoger at pobox.com Mon Apr 3 22:57:47 2006 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 20:57:47 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <1144123068.22246.12.camel@aragorn> On Sun, 2006-04-02 at 15:41 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Although I've written several CP/M CBIOSes, I've never had to write one on > a system that used the Trap vector (0066h) for something essential. > > Just curious--has anyone had to deal with servicing the Trap interrupt in > CP/M? How does one keep CP/M from clobbering the vector, since it's in the > FCB2 area? > Sounds awfully familar... I think this problem exists when running ZCN on the Amstrad NC100/200. ZCN deals as best it can. The problem comes for applications that access the fcb directly without going through the OS, I think. Check the documentation for ZCN. http://www.ibiblio.org/zcn/zcn13.zip look under the doc/ directory for a file named zcn.txt . It mentions some of the hacks needed. Plus there is full source code. -- John. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Apr 3 23:40:59 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 23:40:59 -0500 Subject: ComputerVision CADDstation 32 Message-ID: I've tied into the CV 3000-20 Model 32. Haven't replaced the cap yet, though. Does anyone know if the Sun machines have the P1&P2 terminator paddleboards with switches at either end of the VME bus (the swithches sound like some sort of bus grant adjustment from the manual). The magtapes have a dull surface to them. Does anyone know if this is normal, or will something need to be done to stabilize them before imaging? I have pictures of the boards, but no place to put them. Several people have expressed interest in seeing them. I can either hitch a ride on someone else's website, or do direct e-mail. At this point, they are big (~3.5 MB each) JPEGs that you can read chip numbers from, but they could be downsampled. Have outside front, connector side of the cardcage, and the 3004 CPU, framebuffer, GPU, GPU interface, tablet interface, and the (SCSI & 2 RS-232) cards. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Apr 3 23:44:36 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 21:44:36 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: Richard ---snip--- >I didn't get mad, I just 'dug in' as you say. But I didn't get the >"trick" to the puzzle so it just sat there unfinished. Basically I >felt it was a waste of precious interview time because while I might >often get stuck on this little trick puzzles, I very rarely get stuck >while writing software and even then I don't stay stuck for very long. >This becomes evident when coding with me or looking at code I've done, >but its not evident by shoving random brain teasers in front of me and >demanding I solve them in 10 minutes. I'm not a seal in a circus act. > Hi I often ask questions I don't expect the person to be able to answer. What I want to find out is vary valuable to me. I want to know how that person thinks about problems. I don't reject them because they don't get the answer nor does it mean that much if they get the wrong answer. It is how they approach the problem that I'm most interested in finding out. They can always learn what they'll need to know once they start working. I don't have enough time to teach people how to think. Dwight From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 3 23:50:22 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 22:50:22 -0600 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 03 Apr 2006 22:58:51 -0400. <20060404025850.GD20027@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> Message-ID: In article <20060404025850.GD20027 at alpha.rcac.purdue.edu>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > > If the job consisted of solving brain teasers all day, you might have > > a point. > > So, you've never had to troubleshoot anything on the job? I do troubleshooting all the time -- its called debugging software. Show me some code, some behavior and a debugger and I can trouble shoot problems all day long (and fix them too, smarty pants! :). Brain teasers don't show you my troubleshooting or debugging skills. They show you my brain teaser skills. Like I said, I'm great at debugging, sucky at brain teasers. > There's a lot you can find out about potential employees by asking > non-job-related questions. I still don't see the proven value of brain teasers. What I see is people saying they think they're useful for inferring in an applicant. That's a far cry from the cold hard logic of mathematics to prove to me that this isn't a fad. I also notice that lots of people refer to using these with special qualifiers as you did. That's not been my experience. Its pretty clear that they dug these brain teasers out of a book somewhere. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 3 23:54:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 22:54:50 -0600 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 03 Apr 2006 21:44:36 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "dwight elvey" writes: > [...] It is how they approach the problem that > I'm most interested in finding out. But most people don't "think" with a running verbal commentary for you. I understand what you're saying, I just think brain teasers are an asinine thing to use as a proxy for some other ability. I don't even think watching someone do a brain teaser is really a good proxy. You could make me run a 100 yard dash for a job interview and it would seem just as relevant. If you're scared of getting a dufus, that's what contracting is for. Try before you buy. Our company does it all the time and it works very well because you measure for real those things you're trying to use the brain teaser as a proxy to measure. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Apr 4 00:39:26 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 07:39:26 +0200 Subject: Norsk Data Technostation Message-ID: <1144129166.26531.64.camel@fortran.babel> All this talk about CAD workstations here got me thinking about the Technostation. My braindump on this is that it was a ND-5xxx-processor (the 32-bit workhorse) with a ND-1x0-processor (16-bit CPU running the OS and I/O), with two gas-plasma displays emulating the standard Tandberg TDV-2215 ( http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/nd-skjerm.jpeg ) terminals, and a large Sony screen displaying the graphics. Just a relatively standard ND server with the custom logic board(s), I guess. It also had a special desk, and a cursor pad. Also, by coincidence, I came across this in some old newspapers I was going through (Norwegian!) http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/technostation.jpeg about a design award it won in Norway, though I guess that's useless unless you're Scandinavian or know how to translate rot13. ;) Anyone know any more about it? I guess it's a shot in the dark. An ex-ND employee told me about some West-German incentive program for high-tech businesses or something which would sponsor the purchase of a TechnoStation. Field technicians would come home almost crying after having placed the machine in moist basements and barns and places like that. :) -toresbe From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 4 00:51:25 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 22:51:25 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <1144123068.22246.12.camel@aragorn> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <1144123068.22246.12.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: <200604032251250220.2BB7BDFC@10.0.0.252> On 4/3/2006 at 8:57 PM John R. Hogerhuis wrote: >http://www.ibiblio.org/zcn/zcn13.zip > >look under the doc/ directory for a file named zcn.txt . It mentions >some of the hacks needed. Plus there is full source code. Ick, that's ugly--and it won't work for my application where TRAP is triggered on a bus error, such as an invalid I/O address or memory page or parity error. I think I'll connect the TRAP line to RST 4.5 and deal with it that way--I'll figure out a way to handle double TRAP incidents--most likely, ignore them. Thanks, Chuck From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Apr 4 00:53:14 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 07:53:14 +0200 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1144129994.26531.71.camel@fortran.babel> On Mon, 2006-04-03 at 22:54 -0600, Richard wrote: > In article , > "dwight elvey" writes: > > > [...] It is how they approach the problem that > > I'm most interested in finding out. > > But most people don't "think" with a running verbal commentary for > you. I saw something to the effect that many studies showed that when forced to produce a running verbal commentary of solving a given puzzle, they lost almost all solving power. Forcing a person to keep a commentary of what they're doing moves it into a completely different part of the brain, and it would go from "possibly irrelevant" to "completely futile". But, as stated, what matters is less the solution, and more the approach the employee takes, as that shows more of the personality. -toresbe From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 4 01:00:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2006 23:00:32 -0700 Subject: Hospital surplus? (was: OT: Microsoft in the medical fieldwas Re: OT: video signal question) In-Reply-To: <200604040322.XAA02812@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200603230913.JAA16218@citadel.metropolis.local> <1143905689.16400.28.camel@fortran.babel> <00ef01c65745$e0a7efa0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <20060403221800.GB28282@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <200604040322.XAA02812@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200604032300320645.2BC01841@10.0.0.252> On 4/3/2006 at 11:20 PM der Mouse wrote: >One more good reason to do your laundry with soap instead of detergent. >(Laundry soap is not trivial to find. But it does exist.) When my mom used did laundry with Gentle Fels Naptha soap, she'd always add bluing to the whites. I never determined if bluing fluoresces. AFAIK, you can simply grate Fels Naptha bar soap for your laundry use. Cheers, Chuck From sb at thebackend.de Tue Apr 4 03:36:26 2006 From: sb at thebackend.de (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Sebastian_Br=FCckner?=) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 10:36:26 +0200 Subject: LSI-11/2 CPU with tracks cut? Message-ID: <4432300A.4060608@thebackend.de> Hi! I got a M7270 CPU module here from my PDP-11/03. It has the tracks to the QBus contacs BC1-BF1 (BDAL18, BDAL19, BDAL20, BDAL21) cut. I of course wondered why one would do that. In [2] I found the following hint: --- II. Restricted Compatibility Options Options in this category do not meet one or both of the requirements for use in a 22-bit system. These options are incompatible with some or all 22-bit systems. ... KD11-HA M7270 LSI-11/2 CPU (16-bit addressing only, and use of BC1,BD1, BE1,BF1 for purposes other than BDAL18-21) --- So I guess someone tried to make the CPU compatible with 18/22-bit modules? What did the M7270 use these pins for? I didn't find any manuals or schematics for the this CPU yet, only for the LSI-11. Could someone point me into the right direction? Thanks Sebastian [1] http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1103/EK-LSI11-TM-002.pdf [2] http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/micronotes/numerical/micronote5.txt From cc at corti-net.de Tue Apr 4 04:47:49 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 11:47:49 +0200 (CEST) Subject: LSI-11/2 CPU with tracks cut? In-Reply-To: <4432300A.4060608@thebackend.de> References: <4432300A.4060608@thebackend.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Apr 2006, [ISO-8859-15] Sebastian Br?ckner wrote: > KD11-HA M7270 LSI-11/2 CPU > (16-bit addressing only, and use of BC1,BD1, > BE1,BF1 for purposes other than BDAL18-21) > What did the M7270 use these pins for? I didn't find any manuals or > schematics for the this CPU yet, only for the LSI-11. Could someone point me > into the right direction? According to the "microcomputer processor handbook" (edition 1979-80) the backplane signal names for BC1 to BH1 are called SSPARE4 to SSPARE8 (special spare) and are *not* bussed. The KD11-HA signal names on these pins are: BC1 SCLK3H BD1 SWMIB18H BE1 SWMIB19H BF1 SWMIB20H BH1 SWMIB21H Christian From sb at thebackend.de Tue Apr 4 06:09:41 2006 From: sb at thebackend.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sebastian_Br=FCckner?=) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 13:09:41 +0200 Subject: LSI-11/2 CPU with tracks cut? In-Reply-To: References: <4432300A.4060608@thebackend.de> Message-ID: <443253F5.605@thebackend.de> Christian Corti schrieb: > According to the "microcomputer processor handbook" (edition 1979-80) > the backplane signal names for BC1 to BH1 are called SSPARE4 to SSPARE8 > (special spare) and are *not* bussed. Yes but that apparently is only true for the very first machines using QBUS i.e. with the LSI-11 CPU. The LSI-11 manual contains exactly the same information. > The KD11-HA signal names on these > pins are: > BC1 SCLK3H > BD1 SWMIB18H > BE1 SWMIB19H > BF1 SWMIB20H > BH1 SWMIB21H Any idea how I can find out what those signals actually do? Sebastian From djg at pdp8.net Tue Apr 4 06:41:16 2006 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 07:41:16 -0400 Subject: Tektronix 4632 Video Hard Copy Unit -- Manual? & 4631 parts Message-ID: <200604041141.k34BfG919702@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> >Does anyone have a manual for this? > Yes, I can try to scan it this week. The foldout schematic pages are slow to scan so if you only need the text pages email me and I will make them available first. I bought what should have been a 4631 and is labeled a 4631 but somebody put the 4632 interface board in it. Does anybody have a parts 4631 I could get the interface board in the back from? From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue Apr 4 07:25:06 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 05:25:06 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443265A2.1080704@DakotaCom.Net> dwight elvey wrote: > I often ask questions I don't expect the person to be able to answer. > What I want to find out is vary valuable to me. I want to know > how that person thinks about problems. I don't reject them because > they don't get the answer nor does it mean that much if they get > the wrong answer. It is how they approach the problem that > I'm most interested in finding out. > They can always learn what they'll need to know once they start > working. I don't have enough time to teach people how to think. Best question I was ever asked in an interview (by a VP of one of the largest hand-tool manufacturers) was how to design a numbering system for their products (hammers, screwdrivers, tape rules, etc.). It had to be one of the most enlightening "unexpected" questions I'd ever heard -- or heard, since! I think that exchange proved to both of us that we could work with each other, despite the actual "answer" to the question. --don From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue Apr 4 07:28:34 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 05:28:34 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604032251250220.2BB7BDFC@10.0.0.252> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <1144123068.22246.12.camel@aragorn> <200604032251250220.2BB7BDFC@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44326672.6080304@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/3/2006 at 8:57 PM John R. Hogerhuis wrote: > >> http://www.ibiblio.org/zcn/zcn13.zip >> >> look under the doc/ directory for a file named zcn.txt . It mentions >> some of the hacks needed. Plus there is full source code. > > Ick, that's ugly--and it won't work for my application where TRAP is > triggered on a bus error, such as an invalid I/O address or memory page or > parity error. I think I'll connect the TRAP line to RST 4.5 and deal with > it that way--I'll figure out a way to handle double TRAP incidents--most > likely, ignore them. If you have control over the hardware, you can just jam whatever vector you want onto the bus. And, there's a trick I used once to free up RST 0 (!) for use as well (differentiating it from RESET). But, it's too early in the morning for me to recall what it was. :-( --don From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue Apr 4 07:31:59 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 05:31:59 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <1144129994.26531.71.camel@fortran.babel> References: <1144129994.26531.71.camel@fortran.babel> Message-ID: <4432673F.5080809@DakotaCom.Net> Tore S Bekkedal wrote: >> In article , >> "dwight elvey" writes: >> >>> [...] It is how they approach the problem that >>> I'm most interested in finding out. >> But most people don't "think" with a running verbal commentary for >> you. > > I saw something to the effect that many studies showed that when forced > to produce a running verbal commentary of solving a given puzzle, they > lost almost all solving power. > > Forcing a person to keep a commentary of what they're doing moves it > into a completely different part of the brain, and it would go from > "possibly irrelevant" to "completely futile". > > But, as stated, what matters is less the solution, and more the approach > the employee takes, as that shows more of the personality. Another good exercise is incremental refinement of the "problem" to see how the solution incrementally improves. I had an employer engage me in such a discussion (long after being hired) and was amazed at how my answer to question #3 would have been equally applicable to question #1 -- yet, I hadn't come up with it until prompted to by the more stringent requirements of the third question, etc. (sigh) Makes you think you are "mentally lazy" :-( --don From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue Apr 4 07:53:12 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 05:53:12 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44326C38.8010703@DakotaCom.Net> William Donzelli wrote: >> Assembly language is still used quite a lot in the embedded systems >> world. > > Here we go again. > > These days, assembly language programming is like cannibalism - lots of > people insist that it is still very much alive, but nobody has actually > ever seen it. I think you'd be amazed at how prevalent it still is! It depends on the market you are in. For example, do you think the microcontroller in your mouse was coded in anything OTHER than assembler? Or, the microcontrollers in your CD-ROM drive? That's already twice as many processors as there are "computers". Now, look at the thermostat on the wall in your living room. And the microcontroller *inside* your furnace (assuming you have a newer model furnace). My VCR has three microcontrollers in it. I have no idea how many are in my stereo components, television, etc. The code in the gasoline pump up the corner was written in assembly language (unfortunately... it was the perfect application to move to a HLL but... :< ). I know of cameras written in ASM. I have a friend who is just finishing the design of a LIGHT SWITCH -- written in ASM. I haven't check in some years but the biggest volume parts were things like HC08's. Nowadays, PICs (if you treat the entire family as a single 'part') probably are king of the heap. Amazing when you think of how many PC's there are and realize how *small* that number is compared to all these other things! I am just finishing a proposal for yet another product where I am *sure* the client won't want to spend the money to support a HLL. (Of course, he will undoubtedly grumble at the cost of NOT using one, too!) > Apologies to the 100 or so engineers in the entire field that may still > use it. Well, when I look at all of the PRODUCTS out there, I guess us 100 engineers must be writing a sh*tload of code!! IMO, the key difference is you write these applications *once*. There are no bugs (allowed) and no "upgrades". You dare not have to RECALL 50,000 widgets because you made a mistake and need to fix it. So you get it right the first time and then the job is *over*. (e.g., my Nakamichi Dragons have a stupid little bug in the MCU that watches tape motion... no chance in hell that it will ever be fixed -- or even acknowledged!) But, thereafter, your production (and any savings from using a cheaper implementation) just keep adding up. Until you've had to reuse *bits* in a particular *byte*, you're not really dealing with low cost items. :-( It's really difficult to make the transition to resource-rich applications... it's hard not to count clock cycles, measure stack penetration (do people even *know* how deep the stack needs to be on modern desigs? Or, do they just keep bumping it up until the code works??), pare data down to the smallest necessary size, etc. (I still cringe every time I use an int for a bool! :>) Thankfully, most HLL's make bit-banging really difficult. --don From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue Apr 4 08:08:54 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 06:08:54 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604031823.41412.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <200604022130380573.26476FED@10.0.0.252> <4430AB41.90701@DakotaCom.Net> <200604031823.41412.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <44326FE6.30902@DakotaCom.Net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 03 April 2006 12:57 am, Don Y wrote: >> I think the real reason (?) goes to a difference in cultures between >> register rich and register poor machines IN THAT TIMEFRAME. > > I think you're probably right... > >> E.g., if you are writing code for a 68xx, you have little choice >> but to do everything in memory addressing. Whereas if you are >> using 8080/8085/Z80 et al., you just get used to *keeping* things >> in registers (I can recall spending lots of time evaluating >> which arguments I would put in which registers so I could >> *keep* them there -- or somewhere else in the register set -- for >> the duration of the algorithm... XCHG being a favorite tool >> in those cases!) > > Yeah. Though XTHL was another one... As was PCHL. But, XCHG was lots of bang for the buck (4 clocks?) because it moved a lot of data in a little time. By contrast, XTHL (ex sp,(hl) for z80 folks) moved the same amount of data but, since it went to TOS, there were a lot more clocks involved (19 or 20, IIRC). >> Moving to something like a 99000 can be terribly distressing >> for the register rich crowd to become accustomed to! ;) > > I found, though, when I was doing some z80 stuff a while back that most of > the time I'd use one pair for an address pointer and maybe one other besides > the accumulator and that was it, over 90% of the time. Z80 is a different beast from the 808[05]. You write code differently for it because it has a much richer instruction set. But, if you are doing things like adding an 8 digit BCD number to another 8 digit BCD number, you quickly discover that you need a lot of registers (two pointers for the two arguments -- assuming the destination is one of these as well, a "digit counter", the accumulator and, of course, the carry). > Oh, and the little monitor program that I was playing with didn't push a > parameter on to the stack, it put it inline, right after the call to some > subroutine -- the called code would pick it up and use it and adjust the > stack pointer to just past it for the return. :-) Yes, a favorite trick for "printing" strings, etc. CALL OUTPUT DB 'Hello, World!' > I have to dig out that code, anyhow, there were a few little tricks in there > that I think I want to use again. Like funneling everything through a > dispatch table, so that un-programmed EPROM showing up as "FFFF" in some > entries would be handled automatically ("CRASH!" :-), ferinstance. Or, using INR M to 'test' flags. --don From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue Apr 4 08:20:07 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 06:20:07 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604031628.k33GS9Dc029016@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200604031628.k33GS9Dc029016@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <44327287.4030502@DakotaCom.Net> Brad Parker wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: >> These days, assembly language programming is like cannibalism - lots of >> people insist that it is still very much alive, but nobody has actually >> ever seen it. >> >> Apologies to the 100 or so engineers in the entire field that may still >> use it. > > I have to agree. I do a reasonable amount of paid work on micros and > almost all of it is in C. The only exception is PIC's, which are > generally done in assembler. PICs are poorly suited for C because the stack is either too small (on some devices) or inaccessible (on many devices). So, you have to implement the stack as a discrete structure, etc. How do you spell KLUDGE? > don't get me wrong - I love assembler, but most paying customers want > the work in C for maintainability. In my experience, this has only been for small projects (in terms of volume). E.g., medical instruments, higher end DATAC, etc. Things that you can -- and probably *will* -- upgrade. I worked on an electronic *door* lock. The cost of upgrading the software (i.e. just removing the locks from the door and replacing their contents) would exceed the cost of the lock itself! I.e. they will *never* be upgraded -- unless they come out with a new model (and owners of the old model will surely not replace every lock in their hotel just for some "new feature"). Even FLASH reprogrammable MCU's aren't cost effective for software upgrades (unless they are on a wireless link or you are servicing them via sneakernet on a regular basis). One client told me it costs him $600 to send a guy "into the city" for a day. So, that's 100 of a $6 item. Means if he replaces one every five minutes, the company has now spent ~$20 on each $6 product (the $6 product, the $6 replacement and $6 in labor). So, the 3.5X DM+DL sell price suddenly is shot to hell (i.e. you sold it for $20 originally and you've now spent $20 on each sale!) > All the AVR and HC11/12 (6800) work I've done has been in C as well as a > handful of odd-ball cpus. Even 8085's. And these days most of that is > shifting to small pin count ARM SOC's like the SAM7S. > > The joke these days is that the CPLD next to the CPU has 4x the pins! Ah for the resources in a CELL PHONE!! :-/ --don From allain at panix.com Tue Apr 4 08:56:16 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 09:56:16 -0400 Subject: Programmer's conundrums References: <4431B6F3.D7FF3492@rain.org> Message-ID: <00ff01c657ef$8b7f16c0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > It is the mediocre profession here> who seems to be more interested in talk than doing. > Unfortunately, our society is becoming more talk rather than action > oriented. It is the mediocre Internet Poster who seems to be more interested in talk than doing. Unfortunately, the Classiccmp list is becoming more talk rather than action oriented. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 4 09:10:23 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 08:10:23 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4632 Video Hard Copy Unit -- Manual? & 4631 parts In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 04 Apr 2006 07:41:16 -0400. <200604041141.k34BfG919702@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: In article <200604041141.k34BfG919702 at user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com>, djg at pdp8.net writes: > I bought what should have been a 4631 and is labeled a 4631 but somebody > put the 4632 interface board in it. Does anybody have a parts 4631 I > could get the interface board in the back from? So as I suspected the 4631 and 4632 are the same printer with a different interface attached.... I could surely do with the text first. I wonder if there's any hope in hell of still getting an image of the dry silver paper roll that's inside it. They haven't made them since 1999 apparently. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 4 09:20:09 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 10:20:09 -0400 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <00ff01c657ef$8b7f16c0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <4431B6F3.D7FF3492@rain.org> <00ff01c657ef$8b7f16c0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <44328099.7050002@gmail.com> John Allain wrote: >> It is the mediocre > profession here> who seems to be more interested in talk than doing. >> Unfortunately, our society is becoming more talk rather than action >> oriented. > > It is the mediocre Internet Poster who seems to be more interested > in talk than doing. Unfortunately, the Classiccmp list is becoming > more talk rather than action oriented. How do you define "action" in terms of a mailing list? Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 4 09:23:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 07:23:29 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <44326672.6080304@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <1144123068.22246.12.camel@aragorn> <200604032251250220.2BB7BDFC@10.0.0.252> <44326672.6080304@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200604040723290948.2D8C91F2@10.0.0.252> On 4/4/2006 at 5:28 AM Don Y wrote: >If you have control over the hardware, you can just jam whatever >vector you want onto the bus. There's already an 8259 for handling device interrupts, so I need something that's higher priority than that. That leaves the RST 5.5, 6.5 and 7.5 pins. Given that only one of them (7.5) is edge triggered and not level-triggered, I'll use that one. Right about now you're probably asking yourself--Z80 TRAP, 8259 PIC, RST 7.5 pin?!? What the heck has this guy been smoking? Everyone knows that Z80 timings are wrong for an 8259. And where is this RST 7.5 pin he's talking about? Well, this isn't a Z80--it's an NSC800--sort of a CMOS Z80 with 8085 timings and a multiplexed data/address bus like the 8085. I'm retrofitting one into an 8085 box--there are a number of Z80-only programs that I'd like to use and the National chip appears to be the most straightforward way to do this. The pinout is substantially different from an 8085 and there are a couple of signals that need to be inverted, but the timing charts look good--and my particular application doesn't have the CPU making use of SID or SOD or the undocumented 8085 instructions. The hardest part was finding a supply of the NSC parts. Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Apr 4 09:51:46 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 10:51:46 -0400 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Apr 2006 05:53:12 PDT." <44326C38.8010703@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200604041451.k34EpksT031650@mwave.heeltoe.com> Don Y wrote: > >The code in the gasoline pump up the corner was written in >assembly language (unfortunately... it was the perfect >application to move to a HLL but... :< ). depends on the pump. and the box inside the office which monitors all the pumps and reports (via the internet) on the tank gauges runs linux :-) -brad >Thankfully, most HLL's make bit-banging really difficult. i disagree. i've managed (with others) to get C to be so close to asm that asm wasn't worth it. and bit banging in lisp is really nice. so, ok, BASIC is a pain. -brad From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 4 10:49:59 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 08:49:59 -0700 Subject: Tek 4631 service man now on bitsavers Message-ID: <34E616DA-41EF-434E-AAE1-8750BFA7C83A@bitsavers.org> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/tektronix/46xx/ 070-1831-02_4631_Service_Nov79.pdf I'm also going through the graphics terminal manuals that I have, so a few of those will be up in the next few days as well. What I don't have are manuals for the 41x5 (the fancy high-resolution raster displays) or much on the 402x character cell graphics displays. 061-2564-01_4114hostPgmg_feb83 070-1647-00_4014UM 070-1648-00_4015svc_aug74 070-2303-00_4014svc_Mar79 070-2830-00_4025svcVol1 070-3673-00_4114oper_dec81 070-3683-00_tek4112 070-3892-00_4110seriesCmdRef_sep83 070-4164-00_4662apr82 070-4165-00_4662opt31_feb83 070-4526-01_4105_sep83 070-4893-00_tek4107pgm 061-3216-00_4405users_apr86 070-5604-00_4404_dec84 070-5606-00_4404ST80syUser_aug85 From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 4 11:01:23 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 10:01:23 -0600 Subject: Tek 4631 service man now on bitsavers In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 04 Apr 2006 08:49:59 -0700. <34E616DA-41EF-434E-AAE1-8750BFA7C83A@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Sweet, thanks Al! BTW, who decides the filename? ;-) Aside from the document number, the rest seems to not follow any particular convention. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 4 11:20:18 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 09:20:18 -0700 Subject: bitsavers filenames (was Tek 4631 service man now on bitsavers) Message-ID: > BTW, who decides the filename? The general format is falls off if there isn't one. I started using this a few years into the project, so the early stuff isn't this way. The has been getting longer since I moved to a server that supports long filenames. And, to answer your earlier question, I don't think I saved any AED terminals. I do have the schematics, users manual, and rom source. The AED 512->1024 are a single large PCB. The 1280 was a total redesign, replacing the 6502 with a 65816, and a 12 bit 2901 for line drawing. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 4 11:41:26 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 10:41:26 -0600 Subject: ComputerVision CADDstation 32 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 03 Apr 2006 23:40:59 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "Scott Quinn" writes: > I have pictures of the boards, but no place to put them. Several > people have expressed interest in seeing them. If others are interested... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue Apr 4 12:04:26 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 10:04:26 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604041451.k34EpksT031650@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200604041451.k34EpksT031650@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4432A71A.7020600@DakotaCom.Net> Brad Parker wrote: > Don Y wrote: >> The code in the gasoline pump up the corner was written in >> assembly language (unfortunately... it was the perfect >> application to move to a HLL but... :< ). > > depends on the pump. and the box inside the office which monitors all > the pumps and reports (via the internet) on the tank gauges runs linux > :-) Exactly. And the code in that application is likely to be revised. The code in your microwave oven, isn't! >> Thankfully, most HLL's make bit-banging really difficult. > > i disagree. i've managed (with others) to get C to be so close to asm > that asm wasn't worth it. Great! Here are 256 bytes of ram. Design and implement a LORAN-C position plotter in C. It has to process data in real time (i.e. maybe 1.5 updates per second), run on a *3* MHz CPU and you have 10KB for TEXT. And, that's a "bountiful" work environment! I envy you the clients that give you that much leeway. When I am done, a client usually wants to know how to trim even MORE out of the design (I'm looking at a $20 design now that needs to be a $15 design... and the list of added functions is several pages long! Hmmm, I wonder how much I can save by taking the FOILS off the board?? Or, the leads off the resistors?? :<) > and bit banging in lisp is really nice. > > so, ok, BASIC is a pain. Doing decimal arithmetic in C sucks. As does trying to pack 8 bools to a byte (and access them efficiently), etc. Loss of the carry is probably the biggest single pisser in most HLLs. Horses for courses... --don From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue Apr 4 12:07:41 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 10:07:41 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604040723290948.2D8C91F2@10.0.0.252> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <1144123068.22246.12.camel@aragorn> <200604032251250220.2BB7BDFC@10.0.0.252> <44326672.6080304@DakotaCom.Net> <200604040723290948.2D8C91F2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4432A7DD.3080506@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/4/2006 at 5:28 AM Don Y wrote: > >> If you have control over the hardware, you can just jam whatever >> vector you want onto the bus. > > There's already an 8259 for handling device interrupts, so I need something > that's higher priority than that. That leaves the RST 5.5, 6.5 and 7.5 > pins. Given that only one of them (7.5) is edge triggered and not > level-triggered, I'll use that one. > > Right about now you're probably asking yourself--Z80 TRAP, 8259 PIC, RST > 7.5 pin?!? What the heck has this guy been smoking? Everyone knows that > Z80 timings are wrong for an 8259. And where is this RST 7.5 pin he's > talking about? > > Well, this isn't a Z80--it's an NSC800--sort of a CMOS Z80 with 8085 > timings and a multiplexed data/address bus like the 8085. I'm retrofitting > one into an 8085 box--there are a number of Z80-only programs that I'd like > to use and the National chip appears to be the most straightforward way to > do this. The pinout is substantially different from an 8085 and there are > a couple of signals that need to be inverted, but the timing charts look > good--and my particular application doesn't have the CPU making use of SID > or SOD or the undocumented 8085 instructions. The hardest part was finding > a supply of the NSC parts. I probably have a tube of them somewhere in the garage. I've "explored" most of the 8085/Z80 variants over the years in different designs (I recall a 3870?) -- though I haven't touched one in probably a decade or more... --don From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 4 13:03:35 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 12:03:35 -0600 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <4432A71A.7020600@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200604041451.k34EpksT031650@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4432A71A.7020600@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <4432B4F7.9020507@jetnet.ab.ca> Don Y wrote: > > Exactly. And the code in that application is likely to be revised. > The code in your microwave oven, isn't! Hey I still like the MECHANICAL microwave oven controls. > > Great! Here are 256 bytes of ram. Design and implement > a LORAN-C position plotter in C. It has to process data in real > time (i.e. maybe 1.5 updates per second), run on a *3* MHz CPU > and you have 10KB for TEXT. Did not the PDP8 do that in 4K? of memory. see: http://www.parse.com/~museum/pdp8/pdp8e/loranc.html > > And, that's a "bountiful" work environment! > Doing decimal arithmetic in C sucks. As does trying to pack > 8 bools to a byte (and access them efficiently), etc. Loss > of the carry is probably the biggest single pisser in most HLLs. Does any HLL's have access to the carry flag? A unsigned compare can get a carry for you but I can't remember the details of that trick. > Horses for courses... > > --don > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 4 14:00:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 12:00:56 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <4432A7DD.3080506@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <1144123068.22246.12.camel@aragorn> <200604032251250220.2BB7BDFC@10.0.0.252> <44326672.6080304@DakotaCom.Net> <200604040723290948.2D8C91F2@10.0.0.252> <4432A7DD.3080506@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200604041200560791.2E8A9407@10.0.0.252> On 4/4/2006 at 10:07 AM Don Y wrote: >I probably have a tube of them somewhere in the garage. I've >"explored" most of the 8085/Z80 variants over the years in >different designs (I recall a 3870?) -- though I haven't touched >one in probably a decade or more... Hmmm--I've got a couple of the 3870s and I don't believe they're of the same 8080/Z80 family. IIRC, the original F8 (the 3850) was not a complete microprocess and required one of several support chips that provided, among other things, the program counter and memory control logic. (3851, 3852, 3853?) Fairchild later introduced the 3859, which combined the two simplest chips (3850, 3851), but Mostek did them one better and combined the 3850 and one of the more complex support chips--I forget which one; it may have been the 3856. Again, IIRC (I had only peripheral experience with the things), the big advantage of the 3870 wasn't the level of integration, but the steeply lower ROM mask charge over the Fairchild parts. I believe that Fairchild, knowing a good thing when they saw it, licensed the 3870 from Mostek. I've got a bunch of the 2.5 MHz NSC800's--I'd love to get my hands on a 4 MHz part. NSC's part suffix numbering system is a bit bizarre and probably points to a story of a missed objective. The -1 is a 1 MHz part, but the -3 is 2.5 MHz; the -35 is 3.5 MHz and the -4 is 4 MHz. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Apr 4 14:26:13 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 14:26:13 -0500 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <44326FE6.30902@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <200604031823.41412.rtellason@blazenet.net> <44326FE6.30902@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200604041526.13773.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 04 April 2006 09:08 am, Don Y wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Monday 03 April 2006 12:57 am, Don Y wrote: > >> I think the real reason (?) goes to a difference in cultures between > >> register rich and register poor machines IN THAT TIMEFRAME. > > > > I think you're probably right... > > > >> E.g., if you are writing code for a 68xx, you have little choice > >> but to do everything in memory addressing. Whereas if you are > >> using 8080/8085/Z80 et al., you just get used to *keeping* things > >> in registers (I can recall spending lots of time evaluating > >> which arguments I would put in which registers so I could > >> *keep* them there -- or somewhere else in the register set -- for > >> the duration of the algorithm... XCHG being a favorite tool > >> in those cases!) > > > > Yeah. Though XTHL was another one... > > As was PCHL. But, XCHG was lots of bang for the buck (4 clocks?) Yes. And I often wished that they'd had one that would work with BC, as well... :-) > because it moved a lot of data in a little time. By contrast, > XTHL (ex sp,(hl) for z80 folks) moved the same amount of data > but, since it went to TOS, there were a lot more clocks involved > (19 or 20, IIRC). Yup. > >> Moving to something like a 99000 can be terribly distressing > >> for the register rich crowd to become accustomed to! ;) > > > > I found, though, when I was doing some z80 stuff a while back that most > > of the time I'd use one pair for an address pointer and maybe one other > > besides the accumulator and that was it, over 90% of the time. > > Z80 is a different beast from the 808[05]. You write code differently for > it because it has a much richer instruction set. But I never used most of that stuff. Never got around to doing anything with the index registers, the alternate set, or a lot of those "specials" that were added. I kinda liked relative jumps, though, since it made it way easier to do relocatable code and plus they were a byte smaller. :-) > But, if you are doing things like adding an 8 digit BCD number to another 8 > digit BCD number, you quickly discover that you need a lot of registers (two > pointers for the two arguments -- assuming the destination is one > of these as well, a "digit counter", the accumulator and, of course, the > carry). I suppose. I guess it all depends on what you want to do... > > Oh, and the little monitor program that I was playing with didn't push a > > parameter on to the stack, it put it inline, right after the call to > > some subroutine -- the called code would pick it up and use it and adjust > > the stack pointer to just past it for the return. :-) > > Yes, a favorite trick for "printing" strings, etc. > > CALL OUTPUT > DB 'Hello, World!' > Just so. > > I have to dig out that code, anyhow, there were a few little tricks in > > there that I think I want to use again. Like funneling everything > > through a dispatch table, so that un-programmed EPROM showing up as > > "FFFF" in some entries would be handled automatically ("CRASH!" :-), > > ferinstance. > > Or, using INR M to 'test' flags. Yep! Sometimes I like the absolutely minimalist approach to things, too. One of these days I'm gonna dig that code out, burn it, and see how small a z80 box I can build that'll still prove useful for all sorts of things. I sure have enough of those parts on hand here... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Apr 4 14:26:44 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 14:26:44 -0500 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <44326672.6080304@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <200604032251250220.2BB7BDFC@10.0.0.252> <44326672.6080304@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200604041526.44825.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 04 April 2006 08:28 am, Don Y wrote: > And, there's a trick I used once to free up RST 0 (!) for use > as well (differentiating it from RESET). But, it's too early > in the morning for me to recall what it was. :-( Do tell! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Apr 4 14:28:07 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 14:28:07 -0500 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <44326C38.8010703@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44326C38.8010703@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200604041528.07248.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 04 April 2006 08:53 am, Don Y wrote: > I have a friend who is just finishing the design of a LIGHT SWITCH -- > written in ASM. *boggle* Why? <...> > It's really difficult to make the transition to resource-rich > applications... it's hard not to count clock cycles, measure stack > penetration (do people even *know* how deep the stack needs to be on modern > desigs? Or, do they just keep bumping it up until the code works??), pare > data down to the smallest necessary size, etc. (I still cringe every time I > use an int for a bool! :>) Sounds a lot like the way I tend to approach things, too. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Apr 4 14:30:53 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 14:30:53 -0500 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604040723290948.2D8C91F2@10.0.0.252> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <44326672.6080304@DakotaCom.Net> <200604040723290948.2D8C91F2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200604041530.53680.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 04 April 2006 10:23 am, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Everyone knows that Z80 timings are wrong for an 8259. They are? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 4 15:06:26 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 16:06:26 -0400 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604041451.k34EpksT031650@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200604041451.k34EpksT031650@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4432D1C2.50407@gmail.com> Brad Parker wrote: > i disagree. i've managed (with others) to get C to be so close to asm > that asm wasn't worth it. > > and bit banging in lisp is really nice. > > so, ok, BASIC is a pain. All hail the almighty POKE! Peace... Sridhar From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 4 15:07:51 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 16:07:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604041528.07248.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Apr 04, 2006 02:28:07 PM Message-ID: <20060404200751.414DF73029@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Roy J. Tellason once stated: > > On Tuesday 04 April 2006 08:53 am, Don Y wrote: > > I have a friend who is just finishing the design of a LIGHT SWITCH -- > > written in ASM. > > *boggle* > > Why? I have a computerized light switch in the bedroom. It's a dimmer switch and you can pre-select how bright the lights get when you hit it. If you double hit it (double click?) it'll go to full brightness, but still keep the original setting. -spc (Okay, not on topic, but still ... computerized light switches ... ) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 4 15:09:28 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 13:09:28 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604041530.53680.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <44326672.6080304@DakotaCom.Net> <200604040723290948.2D8C91F2@10.0.0.252> <200604041530.53680.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200604041309280444.2EC95103@10.0.0.252> On 4/4/2006 at 2:30 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >On Tuesday 04 April 2006 10:23 am, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Everyone knows that Z80 timings are wrong for an 8259. > >They are? If you want to use the 3-byte CD xx xx vectored output of the 8259 they are. AFAIK, the Z80 doesn't output 3 INTA pulses in response to an INTR-CD sequence, although with enough glue, I suppose anything's possible. Cheers, Chuck From us21090 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 4 16:05:36 2006 From: us21090 at yahoo.com (Scott Austin) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 14:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old apple ascii keyboard In-Reply-To: <200602230557.k1N5v7mE015516@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20060404210536.97087.qmail@web51106.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, I'm thinking about building one of obtronix's apple 1 (ebay 8790381782), but he doesn't supply a keyboard with these latest kits (like he used to). These are the old-old ascii style. Connection to the keyboard is via a socketed 16 pin dip. The signals are 7-bit parallel with a strobe signal. Gnd and +5v are supplied to the keyboard from the Apple1. I'm told that Apple II and II+, early Franklin apple-clone systems used a compatible keyboard. The Apple 1 manual: "Any ASCII encoded keyboard, with positive data outputs, interfaces with the Apple system via a "DIP" connector." I've been looking around for a keyboard, without cannibalizing working systems (even the Franklin). Any of you have working keyboards on non-working Apple II/II+/Franklin-clone that you are willing to part with? Thank you! Scott P.S. (hmm, maybe I shouldn't have made the crack about the Franklin). --------------------------------- Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Apr 4 16:07:43 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 23:07:43 +0200 Subject: DEC Manuals available In-Reply-To: <7CF852977364B54EB8E2B9D075745D357D0B@kenmsg40.us.schp.com> References: <7CF852977364B54EB8E2B9D075745D357D0B@kenmsg40.us.schp.com> Message-ID: <1144184863.26531.107.camel@fortran.babel> On Thu, 2006-03-23 at 17:02 -0500, Rogers, Stanley wrote: > Do you know if there is a service manual for the DEC LA-210 ?? I need > one badly Hey, I don't know if you received a reply for this. The Bitsavers online archive has a print set for all the boards. I suggest you ask specific questions on the list if you want your LA-210 going again, there are a lot of people who know how to keep these running. Good luck! -toresbe From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 4 17:01:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 15:01:51 -0700 Subject: Old apple ascii keyboard In-Reply-To: <20060404210536.97087.qmail@web51106.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060404210536.97087.qmail@web51106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200604041501510939.2F30358B@10.0.0.252> On 4/4/2006 at 2:05 PM Scott Austin wrote: >I've been looking around for a keyboard, without cannibalizing working >systems (even the Franklin). > >Any of you have working keyboards on non-working Apple >II/II+/Franklin-clone that you are willing to part with? Dunno about that, but if you're looking for plain old ASCII, how about these guys: http://www.cadigital.com/inputd.htm Certainly worth a call--I recognize the middle keyboard in the photo and it is indeed ASCII. It's the Hall-effect one and is a very nice unit. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 4 17:13:13 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 16:13:13 -0600 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <20060404200751.414DF73029@linus.area51.conman.org> References: <20060404200751.414DF73029@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: <4432EF79.50500@jetnet.ab.ca> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > I have a computerized light switch in the bedroom. It's a dimmer switch > and you can pre-select how bright the lights get when you hit it. If you > double hit it (double click?) it'll go to full brightness, but still keep > the original setting. Why? If you got real big iron,you can dim your lights the CORRECT way? Now if they had a sensor to tell if you left the room for a couple hours that would be great for me as then lights could itself turn off. :) > -spc (Okay, not on topic, but still ... computerized light switches ... ) From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Apr 4 17:16:36 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 17:16:36 -0500 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <20060404200751.414DF73029@linus.area51.conman.org> References: <20060404200751.414DF73029@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: <200604041816.36860.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 04 April 2006 04:07 pm, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Roy J. Tellason once stated: > > On Tuesday 04 April 2006 08:53 am, Don Y wrote: > > > I have a friend who is just finishing the design of a LIGHT SWITCH -- > > > written in ASM. > > > > *boggle* > > > > Why? > > I have a computerized light switch in the bedroom. It's a dimmer switch > and you can pre-select how bright the lights get when you hit it. If you > double hit it (double click?) it'll go to full brightness, but still keep > the original setting. Heck, I did better than that -- I took a standard 4 inch electrical box, got a plate for "switch and duplex outlet" and stuck a dimmer in there. Originally this was to save the hassle of a xmas tree which had a lot of very old fashioned lights on it from drying out quite as rapidly, but shortly after that the thing ended up in my bedroom and has been on my night table ever since. And I did that back in 1973 or so! I guess newer ain't always necessarily better, eh? > -spc (Okay, not on topic, but still ... computerized light switches ... ) Yeah, well... Maybe if I can change the software if I don't like it. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Apr 4 17:17:17 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 17:17:17 -0500 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604041309280444.2EC95103@10.0.0.252> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <200604041530.53680.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604041309280444.2EC95103@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200604041817.17920.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 04 April 2006 04:09 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/4/2006 at 2:30 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >On Tuesday 04 April 2006 10:23 am, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Everyone knows that Z80 timings are wrong for an 8259. > > > >They are? > > If you want to use the 3-byte CD xx xx vectored output of the 8259 they > are. AFAIK, the Z80 doesn't output 3 INTA pulses in response to an INTR-CD > sequence, although with enough glue, I suppose anything's possible. Ah, I'd forgotten about that... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Apr 4 17:20:08 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 17:20:08 -0500 Subject: Old apple ascii keyboard In-Reply-To: <20060404210536.97087.qmail@web51106.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060404210536.97087.qmail@web51106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200604041820.08068.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 04 April 2006 05:05 pm, Scott Austin wrote: > Hi, > > I'm thinking about building one of obtronix's apple 1 (ebay 8790381782), > but he doesn't supply a keyboard with these latest kits (like he used to). > These are the old-old ascii style. Connection to the keyboard is via a > socketed 16 pin dip. The signals are 7-bit parallel with a strobe signal. > Gnd and +5v are supplied to the keyboard from the Apple1. I'm told that > Apple II and II+, early Franklin apple-clone systems used a compatible > keyboard. The Apple 1 manual: "Any ASCII encoded keyboard, with positive > data outputs, interfaces with the Apple system via a "DIP" connector." > > I've been looking around for a keyboard, without cannibalizing working > systems (even the Franklin). > > Any of you have working keyboards on non-working Apple > II/II+/Franklin-clone that you are willing to part with? I had an empty Franklin mainboard and disk interface card one time some years back, and this is part of the reason why I eventually let it go to some kid that wanted to mess with it instead of building it up like I'd originally intended. I remember when I put the BBII together being told, on the subject of interfacing an ASCII keyboard, that Apple-type keyboards (and clones of them) would specifically _not_ work because they set the high bit. Dunno if this hardware you're looking at expects that or if it's even a consideration at all, but figured it would't hurt to mention it. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 4 17:35:17 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 16:35:17 -0600 Subject: Old apple ascii keyboard In-Reply-To: <200604041501510939.2F30358B@10.0.0.252> References: <20060404210536.97087.qmail@web51106.mail.yahoo.com> <200604041501510939.2F30358B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4432F4A5.9050304@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > http://www.cadigital.com/inputd.htm > > Certainly worth a call--I recognize the middle keyboard in the photo and it > is indeed ASCII. It's the Hall-effect one and is a very nice unit. > Nice keyboards ... get them while you can. Also you can get new-old stock CP/M from them for $15. The 8" drives to read the media are a tad more :) From melamy at earthlink.net Tue Apr 4 18:05:33 2006 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 18:05:33 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Old apple ascii keyboard Message-ID: <32921012.1144191933441.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> don't get too excited about California Digital. He has never bothered to take down his website. He has very little of what is advertised. He sold off everything a few years ago... He does still have Xerox CP/M on 5 14" media and some other items, but call first... -----Original Message----- >From: woodelf >Sent: Apr 4, 2006 5:35 PM >To: General Discussion at null, On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts , null at null >Subject: Re: Old apple ascii keyboard > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >> http://www.cadigital.com/inputd.htm >> >> Certainly worth a call--I recognize the middle keyboard in the photo and it >> is indeed ASCII. It's the Hall-effect one and is a very nice unit. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 4 18:09:04 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 16:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: register-impoverished childhoods was Re: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604041526.13773.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at "Apr 4, 6 02:26:13 pm" Message-ID: <200604042309.k34N94U8015742@floodgap.com> > E.g., if you are writing code for a 68xx, you have little choice > but to do everything in memory addressing. Or a 6502. I don't know what to *do* with all the other registers on other architectures. ^_^;; -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl. ------------- From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Apr 4 18:29:29 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 18:29:29 -0500 Subject: Old apple ascii keyboard In-Reply-To: <4432F4A5.9050304@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20060404210536.97087.qmail@web51106.mail.yahoo.com> <200604041501510939.2F30358B@10.0.0.252> <4432F4A5.9050304@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200604041929.29405.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 04 April 2006 06:35 pm, woodelf wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > http://www.cadigital.com/inputd.htm > > > > Certainly worth a call--I recognize the middle keyboard in the photo and > > it is indeed ASCII. It's the Hall-effect one and is a very nice unit. > > Nice keyboards ... get them while you can. > Also you can get new-old stock CP/M from them for $15. > The 8" drives to read the media are a tad more :) I poked around on that site a bit after looking at the keyboard. Are people really willing to pay over a hundred bucks for a 486 MB? If so, I've got some deals for ya... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Apr 4 18:30:58 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 18:30:58 -0500 Subject: register-impoverished childhoods was Re: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604042309.k34N94U8015742@floodgap.com> References: <200604042309.k34N94U8015742@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200604041930.58315.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 04 April 2006 07:09 pm, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > E.g., if you are writing code for a 68xx, you have little choice > > but to do everything in memory addressing. > > Or a 6502. I don't know what to *do* with all the other registers on > other architectures. ^_^;; OTOH on one of those *I* don't know what to do with all of those addressing modes... :-) Or, I guess, you could conceivably look at that page zero stuff as "registers". Is there any standardization for how those are used at all? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 4 18:35:19 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 17:35:19 -0600 Subject: register-impoverished childhoods was Re: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604042309.k34N94U8015742@floodgap.com> References: <200604042309.k34N94U8015742@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <443302B7.3010606@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Or a 6502. I don't know what to *do* with all the other registers on > other architectures. ^_^;; The first computer I got to use was a PDP-8. You get a Program Counter and a Accumulator. :) From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Apr 4 18:44:28 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 16:44:28 -0700 Subject: register-impoverished childhoods was Re: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604042309.k34N94U8015742@floodgap.com> References: <200604042309.k34N94U8015742@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <443304DC.4020106@msm.umr.edu> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>E.g., if you are writing code for a 68xx, you have little choice >>but to do everything in memory addressing. >> >> > >Or a 6502. I don't know what to *do* with all the other registers on >other architectures. ^_^;; > > > if there are enough of them, you should be able to use them as memory. on the Microdata 1600, when it was first put out, one of the criticisms of the design was that the design had an 8 x 32 static ram that was used as, god forbid, a register file, with a 4 bit selector, for 30 registers. This was up from the 800's design which had only 1 file bank, of 15 registers. one of the complaints was that the 0 register was special, and did not use the file's location 0 (or 16). now days it is nothing to throw away an entire register to emit a 0 or 1 constant, but then it was scandalous waste of hardware. (69- 71) Jim From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 4 19:04:58 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 17:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: register-impoverished childhoods was Re: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <443302B7.3010606@jetnet.ab.ca> from woodelf at "Apr 4, 6 05:35:19 pm" Message-ID: <200604050004.k3504wAr020058@floodgap.com> > > Or a 6502. I don't know what to *do* with all the other registers on > > other architectures. ^_^;; > > The first computer I got to use was a PDP-8. You get a Program Counter > and a Accumulator. :) Since you brought it up :) what OSes can you run on a 4K PDP-8? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Surrender" from "Tomorrow Never Dies" ------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 4 19:15:51 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 17:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: register-impoverished childhoods was Re: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604041930.58315.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at "Apr 4, 6 06:30:58 pm" Message-ID: <200604050015.k350FpEJ020152@floodgap.com> > > > E.g., if you are writing code for a 68xx, you have little choice > > > but to do everything in memory addressing. > > > > Or a 6502. I don't know what to *do* with all the other registers on > > other architectures. ^_^;; > > OTOH on one of those *I* don't know what to do with all of those addressing > modes... :-) > > Or, I guess, you could conceivably look at that page zero stuff as > "registers". Is there any standardization for how those are used at all? Not much. Although Microsoft BASIC-based 6502 microcomputers (Apple II and most Commodores, for example) have some similarities in their zero page usage, they don't have much in common, and 6502-systems that aren't Microsoft BASIC based (Ataris, etc.) look totally different. Even between Commodores this usage changed, sometimes radically. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but my personalities each need therapy." ----- From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Apr 4 19:17:27 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 20:17:27 -0400 Subject: Old apple ascii keyboard References: <20060404210536.97087.qmail@web51106.mail.yahoo.com> <200604041501510939.2F30358B@10.0.0.252> <4432F4A5.9050304@jetnet.ab.ca> <200604041929.29405.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <005001c65846$528ee7d0$a05d1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy J. Tellason" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 7:29 PM Subject: Re: Old apple ascii keyboard > On Tuesday 04 April 2006 06:35 pm, woodelf wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > http://www.cadigital.com/inputd.htm > > > > > > Certainly worth a call--I recognize the middle keyboard in the photo and > > > it is indeed ASCII. It's the Hall-effect one and is a very nice unit. > > > > Nice keyboards ... get them while you can. > > Also you can get new-old stock CP/M from them for $15. > > The 8" drives to read the media are a tad more :) > > I poked around on that site a bit after looking at the keyboard. Are people > really willing to pay over a hundred bucks for a 486 MB? If so, I've got > some deals for ya... :-) > They have a Pentium board for $619-$1189 depending on the Pentium chip (3 Year ALR warranty, is that company even around anymore?), that site must have prices from 1997 still up! From spc at conman.org Tue Apr 4 19:24:47 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 20:24:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <4432EF79.50500@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Apr 04, 2006 04:13:13 PM Message-ID: <20060405002448.60D2173029@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great woodelf once stated: > > Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > > I have a computerized light switch in the bedroom. It's a dimmer switch > > and you can pre-select how bright the lights get when you hit it. If you > > double hit it (double click?) it'll go to full brightness, but still keep > > the original setting. > > Why? If you got real big iron,you can dim your lights the CORRECT way? > Now if they had a sensor to tell if you left the room for a couple > hours that would be great for me as then lights could itself turn off. :) I live in South Florida---I don't really need a space heater thrown in 8-) -spc (It's quite warm enough as it is ... ) From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Apr 4 19:35:28 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 19:35:28 -0500 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604041528.07248.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <44326C38.8010703@DakotaCom.Net> <200604041528.07248.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <443310D0.3030701@brutman.com> >>It's really difficult to make the transition to resource-rich >>applications... it's hard not to count clock cycles, measure stack >>penetration (do people even *know* how deep the stack needs to be on modern >>desigs? Or, do they just keep bumping it up until the code works??), pare >>data down to the smallest necessary size, etc. (I still cringe every time I >>use an int for a bool! :>) I wouldn't want to waste 32 bits for a simple boolean data type. But I also wouldn't try to cram 8 booleans into a byte. The and'ing and or'ing you have to do isn't worth the space savings, unless your data is primarily on/off. Everything depends on the situation. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 4 19:38:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 17:38:00 -0700 Subject: Old apple ascii keyboard In-Reply-To: <005001c65846$528ee7d0$a05d1941@game> References: <20060404210536.97087.qmail@web51106.mail.yahoo.com> <200604041501510939.2F30358B@10.0.0.252> <4432F4A5.9050304@jetnet.ab.ca> <200604041929.29405.rtellason@blazenet.net> <005001c65846$528ee7d0$a05d1941@game> Message-ID: <200604041738000707.2FBF2878@10.0.0.252> On 4/4/2006 at 8:17 PM Teo Zenios wrote: >They have a Pentium board for $619-$1189 depending on the Pentium chip (3 >Year ALR warranty, is that company even around anymore?), that site must >have prices from 1997 still up! They must be getting free web space to leave the site up that long! Too bad. Maybe a note to the folks at http://www.electronicsurplus.com might turn up something--they always seem to have lots of odds and ends. Failing everything, there's always using something like a PIC (programmed in C, of course :) ) to translate a serial keybaord to parallel ASCII... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 4 19:55:42 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 17:55:42 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <443310D0.3030701@brutman.com> References: <44326C38.8010703@DakotaCom.Net> <200604041528.07248.rtellason@blazenet.net> <443310D0.3030701@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200604041755420357.2FCF5B55@10.0.0.252> On 4/4/2006 at 7:35 PM Michael B. Brutman wrote: >I wouldn't want to waste 32 bits for a simple boolean data type. But I >also wouldn't try to cram 8 booleans into a byte. The and'ing and >or'ing you have to do isn't worth the space savings, unless your data is >primarily on/off. Depends on the architecture. Some aren't byte-addressable, so it might make a perverse sort of sense to stash a boolean in a 32-bit word--certainly as far as speed of access goes. On the other hand, there are sone great 80386+ bit operations like BT, BTS, BTC and BTR that make bit-sized booleans darned attractive. Whoops--forgot that no one programs in assembly any more, particuarly on 80386 and up. My bad. :) Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 4 20:13:15 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 18:13:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604041755420357.2FCF5B55@10.0.0.252> References: <44326C38.8010703@DakotaCom.Net> <200604041528.07248.rtellason@blazenet.net> <443310D0.3030701@brutman.com> <200604041755420357.2FCF5B55@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060404181150.O46293@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 4 Apr 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Whoops--forgot that no one programs in assembly any more, particuarly on > 80386 and up. My bad. :) "Nobody programs in assembly any more, nor ever will again" - Clancy and Harvey (UC Berkeley lower division undergrad CS) From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue Apr 4 21:13:53 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 19:13:53 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <20060404181150.O46293@shell.lmi.net> References: <44326C38.8010703@DakotaCom.Net> <200604041528.07248.rtellason@blazenet.net> <443310D0.3030701@brutman.com> <200604041755420357.2FCF5B55@10.0.0.252> <20060404181150.O46293@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <443327E1.5010700@mindspring.com> What about compiler writers, aren't they effectively writing assembly code? I don't know how you could write a good compiler without knowing how to write good assembly code. Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 4 Apr 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Whoops--forgot that no one programs in assembly any more, particuarly on >> 80386 and up. My bad. :) >> > > "Nobody programs in assembly any more, nor ever will again" > - Clancy and Harvey (UC Berkeley lower division undergrad CS) > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 4 21:18:20 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 19:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <443327E1.5010700@mindspring.com> References: <44326C38.8010703@DakotaCom.Net> <200604041528.07248.rtellason@blazenet.net> <443310D0.3030701@brutman.com> <200604041755420357.2FCF5B55@10.0.0.252> <20060404181150.O46293@shell.lmi.net> <443327E1.5010700@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20060404191713.N46293@shell.lmi.net> > > "Nobody programs in assembly any more, nor ever will again" > > - Clancy and Harvey (UC Berkeley lower division undergrad CS) On Tue, 4 Apr 2006, Don North wrote: > What about compiler writers, aren't they effectively writing assembly code? > I don't know how you could write a good compiler without knowing how to > write good assembly code. They are Lisp/Scheme fanatics. I doubt that they really know where their compilers come from. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 4 21:28:41 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 20:28:41 -0600 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 04 Apr 2006 17:55:42 -0700. <200604041755420357.2FCF5B55@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200604041755420357.2FCF5B55 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Depends on the architecture. Some aren't byte-addressable, so it might > make a perverse sort of sense to stash a boolean in a 32-bit > word--certainly as far as speed of access goes. Wasn't there an AMD chip that devoted two "registers" to the hardcoded values 0 and 1 in the architecture? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Apr 4 21:31:36 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 21:31:36 -0500 Subject: Old apple ascii keyboard In-Reply-To: <200604041738000707.2FBF2878@10.0.0.252> References: <20060404210536.97087.qmail@web51106.mail.yahoo.com> <005001c65846$528ee7d0$a05d1941@game> <200604041738000707.2FBF2878@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200604042231.36917.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 04 April 2006 08:38 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/4/2006 at 8:17 PM Teo Zenios wrote: > >They have a Pentium board for $619-$1189 depending on the Pentium chip (3 > >Year ALR warranty, is that company even around anymore?), that site must > >have prices from 1997 still up! > > They must be getting free web space to leave the site up that long! Too > bad. Wish I could find some free web space to that extent...! > Maybe a note to the folks at http://www.electronicsurplus.com might turn up > something--they always seem to have lots of odds and ends. Got that site loading, but for some reason it's being slow. > Failing everything, there's always using something like a PIC (programmed > in C, of course :) ) to translate a serial keybaord to parallel ASCII... Seems to me I remember one of Steve Ciarcia's articles in Byte had a rather nifty little circuit to do that job, and it wasn't that complicated, just a few gates and such -- I'm gonna have to dig that article out, if I still have it. I remember thinking that it wouldn't be too much of a hassle to plug an eprom into the output side of it to convert scan codes to ascii or whatever else I might want... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 4 21:53:53 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 20:53:53 -0600 Subject: Free Web Space (was: Old apple ascii keyboard) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 04 Apr 2006 21:31:36 -0500. <200604042231.36917.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: In article <200604042231.36917.rtellason at blazenet.net>, "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > > They must be getting free web space to leave the site up that long! Too > > bad. > > Wish I could find some free web space to that extent...! Hey, this reminds me, I *do* actually know of some free web space that some of you may be able to exploit. XMission, my ISP, has a donated account setup for 501(c)3 non-profit corporations. If you can document that you have a 501(c)3 non-profit (or perhaps a similarly incorporated state non-profit) that is related to your classic computing then contact me by email and I can help you get setup. Its basically the "business dial-up account": They are my ISP. Pete Ashdown, the owner of the company, is a good friend of mine and very much supports computing history and the demoscene, among other things. He also happens to be the Democratic candidate running for US Senate against Orrin Hatch. If you're in Utah, vote for Ashdown! :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue Apr 4 20:44:03 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 18:44:03 -0700 Subject: Way OT: LORAN-C (was Re: Programmer's conundrums) In-Reply-To: <4432B4F7.9020507@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200604041451.k34EpksT031650@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4432A71A.7020600@DakotaCom.Net> <4432B4F7.9020507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <443320E3.6000408@DakotaCom.Net> woodelf wrote: > Don Y wrote: >> >> Exactly. And the code in that application is likely to be revised. >> The code in your microwave oven, isn't! > > Hey I still like the MECHANICAL microwave oven controls. There are advantages to simplicity! :> >> Great! Here are 256 bytes of ram. Design and implement >> a LORAN-C position plotter in C. It has to process data in real >> time (i.e. maybe 1.5 updates per second), run on a *3* MHz CPU >> and you have 10KB for TEXT. > > Did not the PDP8 do that in 4K? of memory. > see: http://www.parse.com/~museum/pdp8/pdp8e/loranc.html No. That is a (stationary) receiver with dedicated hardware to monitor the incoming RF to make sure it's what and "where" (in terms of *time*) it should be. E.g., it is dedicated to a particular GRI (Group Repetition Interval), hears the Master broadcast (at that period), expects to hear each of the slaves respond (at reasonably fixed intervals in relationship to the Master's transmission, based on where *they* are located and where *it* -- the PDP8 -- is located). The timing of the signals is done in hardware with a high speed counter timer, etc. The waveshape of each pulse is rigidly defined so you can see if it has been distorted by the transmitter, etc. (you track the position -- in time -- of each pulse by watching for a certain zero crossing of the carrier defined within the envelope). All it has to do is worry about stations going off the air and some minor variations in signal timing based on changes in atmospheric propagation (since the transmitters are in fixed locations). A *plotter* takes two or more pairs of "time difference" coordinates (TD's) and converts them to a geographical (Lat-lon) location. The TD's define families of "concentric" :-/ hyperbolae. The intersection of a "line (hyperbola) of constant time difference" for one Master-Slave pair with an intersection of another line of constant time difference determines your location. But, these are hyperbolae, not nice spherical coordinates. And, there can be ambiguties -- a given set of TD coordinates can represent two different points on the globe (sometimes, quite close together, sometimes quite far apart!). So, you have to capture the incoming coordinates, solve the difference equations to map the hyperbolae onto a spherical globe, compensate for the *oblateness* of that globe, do a 2D mercator projection, scale it to the desired user's scale and then drive X & Y motors to move the pen from where you were (last update) to where you *are* (in a straight line, of course) -- without running off the edge of the page, etc. In addition to driving the multiplexed displays, scanning the keyboard (debouncing keys, etc.), interacting with the user, etc. Nowadays, I could code the whole thing in a month or so. But, it sure wouldn't fit in that hardware footprint! (keep in mind, 2Kx8 EPROMs were $50 at the time... $250 just to store the code!) >> And, that's a "bountiful" work environment! > >> Doing decimal arithmetic in C sucks. As does trying to pack >> 8 bools to a byte (and access them efficiently), etc. Loss >> of the carry is probably the biggest single pisser in most HLLs. > > Does any HLL's have access to the carry flag? A unsigned compare > can get a carry for you but I can't remember the details of that > trick. I don't believe any are that tied to the hardware. Even PL/M has no provisions for it *directly*. --don From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue Apr 4 20:46:12 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 18:46:12 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604041200560791.2E8A9407@10.0.0.252> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <1144123068.22246.12.camel@aragorn> <200604032251250220.2BB7BDFC@10.0.0.252> <44326672.6080304@DakotaCom.Net> <200604040723290948.2D8C91F2@10.0.0.252> <4432A7DD.3080506@DakotaCom.Net> <200604041200560791.2E8A9407@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44332164.7040408@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/4/2006 at 10:07 AM Don Y wrote: > >> I probably have a tube of them somewhere in the garage. I've >> "explored" most of the 8085/Z80 variants over the years in >> different designs (I recall a 3870?) -- though I haven't touched >> one in probably a decade or more... > > Hmmm--I've got a couple of the 3870s and I don't believe they're of the I don't think they are the same beasts. But, I think they (or something with a P/N similar to that) sticks in my mind as a viable alternative to Z80's at one time... > same 8080/Z80 family. IIRC, the original F8 (the 3850) was not a complete > microprocess and required one of several support chips that provided, among > other things, the program counter and memory control logic. (3851, 3852, But, that's similar to the 8080, 4004, etc. lineage... I can recall being excited when the 8085 came out with ONBOARD XTAL DRIVER! Woo-hoo!! :> > 3853?) Fairchild later introduced the 3859, which combined the two > simplest chips (3850, 3851), but Mostek did them one better and combined > the 3850 and one of the more complex support chips--I forget which one; it > may have been the 3856. Again, IIRC (I had only peripheral experience with > the things), the big advantage of the 3870 wasn't the level of integration, > but the steeply lower ROM mask charge over the Fairchild parts. I believe > that Fairchild, knowing a good thing when they saw it, licensed the 3870 > from Mostek. > > I've got a bunch of the 2.5 MHz NSC800's--I'd love to get my hands on a 4 > MHz part. NSC's part suffix numbering system is a bit bizarre and probably > points to a story of a missed objective. The -1 is a 1 MHz part, but the > -3 is 2.5 MHz; the -35 is 3.5 MHz and the -4 is 4 MHz. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue Apr 4 21:23:48 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 19:23:48 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604041526.13773.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <200604031823.41412.rtellason@blazenet.net> <44326FE6.30902@DakotaCom.Net> <200604041526.13773.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <44332A34.8030809@DakotaCom.Net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 04 April 2006 09:08 am, Don Y wrote: >> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> On Monday 03 April 2006 12:57 am, Don Y wrote: >>>> I think the real reason (?) goes to a difference in cultures between >>>> register rich and register poor machines IN THAT TIMEFRAME. >>> I think you're probably right... >>> >>>> E.g., if you are writing code for a 68xx, you have little choice >>>> but to do everything in memory addressing. Whereas if you are >>>> using 8080/8085/Z80 et al., you just get used to *keeping* things >>>> in registers (I can recall spending lots of time evaluating >>>> which arguments I would put in which registers so I could >>>> *keep* them there -- or somewhere else in the register set -- for >>>> the duration of the algorithm... XCHG being a favorite tool >>>> in those cases!) >>> Yeah. Though XTHL was another one... >> As was PCHL. But, XCHG was lots of bang for the buck (4 clocks?) > > Yes. And I often wished that they'd had one that would work with BC, as > well... :-) The typical usage was HL & DE for source/destination pointers and BC as length/byte count. So, you could LXI H,... LXI D,... ... DAD B ;HL points to something XCHG ;save HL in DE, get at contents of DE DAD B ;DE points to similar "thing" ... >>>> Moving to something like a 99000 can be terribly distressing >>>> for the register rich crowd to become accustomed to! ;) >>> I found, though, when I was doing some z80 stuff a while back that most >>> of the time I'd use one pair for an address pointer and maybe one other >>> besides the accumulator and that was it, over 90% of the time. >> Z80 is a different beast from the 808[05]. You write code differently for >> it because it has a much richer instruction set. > > But I never used most of that stuff. Never got around to doing anything with > the index registers, the alternate set, or a lot of those "specials" that Alternate register set was ideal for interrupt service (assuming IRQs aren't nested *or* you restrict the alt registers for use by a single IRQ that can never interrupt itself). Consider the cost of saving all of that state and restoring it before RETI and you can see how quickly you can save a lot of time! > were added. I kinda liked relative jumps, though, since it made it way > easier to do relocatable code and plus they were a byte smaller. :-) A favorite trick was to finish a product. Then grep for all CALLs. Sort this list to come up with the N most common CALLs, and then assign those to the "unused" RST's. You could often save 500 bytes of code with that 10 minute exercise... >> But, if you are doing things like adding an 8 digit BCD number to another 8 >> digit BCD number, you quickly discover that you need a lot of registers (two >> pointers for the two arguments -- assuming the destination is one >> of these as well, a "digit counter", the accumulator and, of course, the >> carry). > > I suppose. I guess it all depends on what you want to do... > >>> Oh, and the little monitor program that I was playing with didn't push a >>> parameter on to the stack, it put it inline, right after the call to >>> some subroutine -- the called code would pick it up and use it and adjust >>> the stack pointer to just past it for the return. :-) >> Yes, a favorite trick for "printing" strings, etc. >> >> CALL OUTPUT >> DB 'Hello, World!' >> > > Just so. We would often develop our own interpreters to make some of this stuff more efficient to code. This would get coded in-line with appropriate macros. For example: STATE IDLE ON '0' THRU '9' GOTO IDLE EXECUTING Accumulate_Digit ON BARCODE GOTO TEST EXECUTING Clear_and_Read_then_Test ON CLEAR GOTO IDLE EXECUTING Clear_Accumlator ON ENTER GOTO TEST EXECUTING Test_Value ENDSTATE STATE TEST ON GOODVALUE GOTO ACCEPT EXECUTING Process_Value ON BADVALUE GOTO REJECT EXECUTING Signal_Error ENDSTATE So, with ~25 bytes, I can code a numeric data entry routine (trivial example) in a way that actually is reasonably easy to read. >>> I have to dig out that code, anyhow, there were a few little tricks in >>> there that I think I want to use again. Like funneling everything >>> through a dispatch table, so that un-programmed EPROM showing up as >>> "FFFF" in some entries would be handled automatically ("CRASH!" :-), >>> ferinstance. >> Or, using INR M to 'test' flags. > > Yep! THogh this caused all sorts of problems when I got my first ICE! :-( (think about it :> ) > Sometimes I like the absolutely minimalist approach to things, too. One of > these days I'm gonna dig that code out, burn it, and see how small a z80 > box I can build that'll still prove useful for all sorts of things. I sure > have enough of those parts on hand here... I have a tiny multitasking executive that runs in a handful of bytes. Slick as snot -- if you adopt its coding style. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue Apr 4 21:25:00 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 19:25:00 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604041526.44825.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <200604032251250220.2BB7BDFC@10.0.0.252> <44326672.6080304@DakotaCom.Net> <200604041526.44825.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <44332A7C.4020101@DakotaCom.Net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 04 April 2006 08:28 am, Don Y wrote: >> And, there's a trick I used once to free up RST 0 (!) for use >> as well (differentiating it from RESET). But, it's too early >> in the morning for me to recall what it was. :-( > > Do tell! If it is important, I'll have to look for that design to see what I did. But, that's a LONG time ago (and the neurons tend to wear out after a while... :> ) From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue Apr 4 21:28:30 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 19:28:30 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604041528.07248.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <44326C38.8010703@DakotaCom.Net> <200604041528.07248.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <44332B4E.8050900@DakotaCom.Net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 04 April 2006 08:53 am, Don Y wrote: >> I have a friend who is just finishing the design of a LIGHT SWITCH -- >> written in ASM. > > *boggle* > > Why? It is a very clever light switch! :> (sorry, I can't speak about it until he files...) > <...> > >> It's really difficult to make the transition to resource-rich >> applications... it's hard not to count clock cycles, measure stack >> penetration (do people even *know* how deep the stack needs to be on modern >> desigs? Or, do they just keep bumping it up until the code works??), pare >> data down to the smallest necessary size, etc. (I still cringe every time I >> use an int for a bool! :>) > > Sounds a lot like the way I tend to approach things, too. Depends. If I don't have resources, I live with what I have. If I *do* have resources, then I take full advantage of them! E.g., I have an embedded device that I am working on now that will have over a gig of RAM in it. Very nerve-wracking to p*ss through memory like that but it needs a lot of resources to do what it needs to get done (and there is far too much code for it to be maintainable with a penny-pinching approach!) From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue Apr 4 21:29:40 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 19:29:40 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <20060404200751.414DF73029@linus.area51.conman.org> References: <20060404200751.414DF73029@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: <44332B94.4070208@DakotaCom.Net> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Roy J. Tellason once stated: >> On Tuesday 04 April 2006 08:53 am, Don Y wrote: >>> I have a friend who is just finishing the design of a LIGHT SWITCH -- >>> written in ASM. >> *boggle* >> >> Why? > > I have a computerized light switch in the bedroom. It's a dimmer switch > and you can pre-select how bright the lights get when you hit it. If you > double hit it (double click?) it'll go to full brightness, but still keep > the original setting. Now *that* I would like! If, I am correct in assuming that you can have three levels? I.e. on, off and "preset (user defined) dim"? > -spc (Okay, not on topic, but still ... computerized light switches ... ) From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue Apr 4 21:47:14 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 19:47:14 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <443310D0.3030701@brutman.com> References: <44326C38.8010703@DakotaCom.Net> <200604041528.07248.rtellason@blazenet.net> <443310D0.3030701@brutman.com> Message-ID: <44332FB2.7080309@DakotaCom.Net> Michael B. Brutman wrote: >>> It's really difficult to make the transition to resource-rich >>> applications... it's hard not to count clock cycles, measure stack >>> penetration (do people even *know* how deep the stack needs to be on >>> modern >>> desigs? Or, do they just keep bumping it up until the code works??), >>> pare >>> data down to the smallest necessary size, etc. (I still cringe every >>> time I >>> use an int for a bool! :>) > > I wouldn't want to waste 32 bits for a simple boolean data type. But I > also wouldn't try to cram 8 booleans into a byte. The and'ing and > or'ing you have to do isn't worth the space savings, unless your data is > primarily on/off. But, that's why HLL's are at such a disadvantage in this case! Because they *can't* efficiently do these things. OTOH, I can stuff a byte of flags into a register and, by carefully considering how they are packed in that byte, (heck, *I* decide the packing order!), I can sequentially unpack the flags AS I NEED THEM in a line of code, etc. do_something ADC A,A ;shift MSB into cy, old cy into lsb JP C,omit1 do_something_conditional_on_that_flag omit1: do_something ADC A,A ;next flag into cy, retrieve previous to lsb JP C,omit2 something_conditional_on_flag2 omit2: ... And, when I am done, I still have the original flags *unaltered* without having to store them in memory to preserve them (as would be necessary if I loaded-masked-and-tested). I've yet to see a C compiler smart enough to do these things :> > Everything depends on the situation. Of course! From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Apr 4 22:12:11 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 22:12:11 -0500 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <44332A34.8030809@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <200604041526.13773.rtellason@blazenet.net> <44332A34.8030809@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200604042312.11229.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 04 April 2006 10:23 pm, Don Y wrote: > >>> Yeah. Though XTHL was another one... > >> > >> As was PCHL. But, XCHG was lots of bang for the buck (4 clocks?) > > > > Yes. And I often wished that they'd had one that would work with BC, as > > well... :-) > > The typical usage was HL & DE for source/destination pointers and BC as > length/byte count. Yup! I just like orthagonality, I guess... Blame that H-11 that was my first hand-on exposure to a computer for spoiling my expectations in that regard. :-) <...> > > But I never used most of that stuff. Never got around to doing anything > > with the index registers, the alternate set, or a lot of those > > "specials" that > > Alternate register set was ideal for interrupt service (assuming > IRQs aren't nested *or* you restrict the alt registers for use by > a single IRQ that can never interrupt itself). Consider the > cost of saving all of that state and restoring it before RETI > and you can see how quickly you can save a lot of time! That's what Osborne thought when they used it for _the keyboard interrupt_ (if I'm remembering right) and then along came Turbo Pascal and Mix C and you had to run a patch program or upgrade to a 1.21 rom (in the executive) to get 'em to work at all. > > were added. I kinda liked relative jumps, though, since it made it way > > easier to do relocatable code and plus they were a byte smaller. :-) > > A favorite trick was to finish a product. Then grep for all > CALLs. Sort this list to come up with the N most common CALLs, > and then assign those to the "unused" RST's. You could often > save 500 bytes of code with that 10 minute exercise... Makes sense to me. My fiddling monitor program used a couple of those, I think, but not most of them. <...> > >> DB 'Hello, World!' > >> > > > > Just so. > > We would often develop our own interpreters to make some of this > stuff more efficient to code. This would get coded in-line > with appropriate macros. For example: > > STATE IDLE > ON '0' THRU '9' GOTO IDLE EXECUTING Accumulate_Digit > ON BARCODE GOTO TEST EXECUTING Clear_and_Read_then_Test > ON CLEAR GOTO IDLE EXECUTING Clear_Accumlator > ON ENTER GOTO TEST EXECUTING Test_Value > ENDSTATE > > STATE TEST > ON GOODVALUE GOTO ACCEPT EXECUTING Process_Value > ON BADVALUE GOTO REJECT EXECUTING Signal_Error > ENDSTATE > > So, with ~25 bytes, I can code a numeric data entry routine > (trivial example) in a way that actually is reasonably easy > to read. Macros were one thing I never really got going on, although one of the books I have on hand here that deals with this stuff (I forget which one it is now, and if it's z80-specific or cp/m-specific) was so heavily awash with them that I had trouble wrapping my head around it. I should probably dig that book out of whatever box it's in and have another look one of these days. <...> > >> Or, using INR M to 'test' flags. > > > > Yep! > > THogh this caused all sorts of problems when I got my first > ICE! :-( (think about it :> ) Never used one, so I'm not sure how you mean here. > > Sometimes I like the absolutely minimalist approach to things, too. One > > of these days I'm gonna dig that code out, burn it, and see how small a > > z80 box I can build that'll still prove useful for all sorts of things. > > I sure have enough of those parts on hand here... > > I have a tiny multitasking executive that runs in a handful of > bytes. Slick as snot -- if you adopt its coding style. For the z80? I'd sure like to see that if so. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Apr 4 22:13:14 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 23:13:14 -0400 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Apr 2006 10:04:26 PDT." <4432A71A.7020600@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200604050313.k353DEvL019892@mwave.heeltoe.com> Don Y wrote: > >Great! Here are 256 bytes of ram. Design and implement >a LORAN-C position plotter in C. It has to process data in real >time (i.e. maybe 1.5 updates per second), run on a *3* MHz CPU >and you have 10KB for TEXT. ok! you win! :-) clearly I am living too high on the hog... basking in the luxury of having a stack and all :-) And I totally agree with your point about packing bits and loss of carry. The things I've done to get carry in C. -brad From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Apr 4 22:14:32 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 22:14:32 -0500 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <44332FB2.7080309@DakotaCom.Net> References: <443310D0.3030701@brutman.com> <44332FB2.7080309@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200604042314.32781.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 04 April 2006 10:47 pm, Don Y wrote: > And, when I am done, I still have the original flags *unaltered* > without having to store them in memory to preserve them (as > would be necessary if I loaded-masked-and-tested). Nice trick! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Apr 4 22:25:48 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 23:25:48 -0400 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Apr 2006 19:18:20 PDT." <20060404191713.N46293@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200604050325.k353PmK5023470@mwave.heeltoe.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >> > "Nobody programs in assembly any more, nor ever will again" >> > - Clancy and Harvey (UC Berkeley lower division undergrad CS) > >On Tue, 4 Apr 2006, Don North wrote: >> What about compiler writers, aren't they effectively writing assembly code? >> I don't know how you could write a good compiler without knowing how to >> write good assembly code. > >They are Lisp/Scheme fanatics. I doubt that they really know where their >compilers come from. ??? ahem. some of the lisp compilers I've seen are pretty smart and generate really nice asm code. some heavily hacked on by people like RMS, who's written other compilers you might have used. careful what you say about them lispers. some of them have been around a long time... -brad more on topic, good compilers spend a lot of time optimizing the 'tree' of processed source long before generating any code. And most they days spend a lot of time in the 'register transfer' stage working on the data flow before writing any code. By the time they get around to emitting code it's pretty straight forward and doesn't rely on nuances of instructions. a gross oversimplification, but you get the point. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 4 22:37:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 21:37:57 -0600 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 04 Apr 2006 23:13:14 -0400. <200604050313.k353DEvL019892@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: In article <200604050313.k353DEvL019892 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, Brad Parker writes: > clearly I am living too high on the hog... basking in the luxury > of having a stack and all :-) On the other hand, I've worked on the reverse. A huge assembly language program that should have been written in C. (Hi Fred Brooks!) It was 1986 and I was so fresh out of UDel's EE department with my degree that the chairs were still warm in the classroom from me sitting on them. I got a contract job with the Glasgow facility in DuPont (yes, *the* DuPont of Delaware). Glasgow was their medical instrumentation division and they had bought out Sorvall, a company that makes high-speed centrifuges. I mean really high speed, like 50,000 rpm? (my memory is fuzzy on the exact number, at least 10k). High speed enough that if the rotor got loose from the motor shaft, it would turn you into hamburger. They deliberately failed one of the rotors in a test chamber lined with 6 inch thick oak. The rotor made a 3 inch dent. But I digress.... They hired me as a contractor as squeeze labor to help get this software done that they had been writing for the front panel user interface. It was a 6809 processor with a membrane keypad (newish idea at the time), some LEDs and a 2x40 character backlit LCD display. It communicated to another 6809 processor that ran the motor. (Thank god the UI guy didn't do the motor code or I would be scared.) This project was being poorly managed and it was also being poorly engineered. The UI panel code had somehow ballooned into 100,000 lines of partly commented 6809 assembly language code. It had a floating-point library and was doing complex scientific calculations and had a fairly elaborate menu for programming in various centrifuge tasks. At one point I analyzed a data path and saw a number get converted from integer to fixed-point to floating-point, do some math on it, floating-point to fixed-point and converted back to integer. This was just one example, the whole thing was a rat's nest of gobbeley gook. When I signed on, we were using a cross-compiler on a PDP-11 (I think it was a /34 or a /45 running something with a versioning file system?) and were not using linkable object modules. Instead if you made a change you had to reassemble the entire 100,000 line mess of source files. It took 8 hours to assemble the output file for the test harness. I reworked all the source files to export the entry point symbols and import the symbols called by that source file. Since there were hundreds of source files, this took a while, but was easy to do. Then I could assemble the .asms into .objs and link .objs together to get my final output for the test harness. This cut the edit/compile/test cycle down to about 45 minutes (it still took a long time to link). The target environment was pretty resource rich on the PROM and RAM side, This was not a machine that was starved for resources, but it was being treated as such. During the time I was there, I could have single-handedly rewritten the entire thing in C using a cross-compiler. Instead I was instructed to use assembly language, which I did. Aside from homework projects, this was the only time I've really had to use assembly language for anything work related. Had I rewritten it, I'm fairly certain that the ROM image would have been smaller and I'm absolutely certain that there would have been fewer bugs. At one point, after having repeatedly embarrassed the lame engineer who was coding the UI by fixing his bugs, he accosted me in the hallway and told me (and I quote): "Your job is not to fix bugs. Your job is to do what I tell you to do." Umm...yeah. That pretty much sums up what was wrong with that project :). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 4 22:39:53 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 21:39:53 -0600 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 04 Apr 2006 23:25:48 -0400. <200604050325.k353PmK5023470@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: In article <200604050325.k353PmK5023470 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, Brad Parker writes: > careful what you say about them lispers. some of them have been around > a long time... beware lispers, for they are subtle and swift to (AND (CAR))? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Tue Apr 4 23:49:41 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 21:49:41 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604042312.11229.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <200604041526.13773.rtellason@blazenet.net> <44332A34.8030809@DakotaCom.Net> <200604042312.11229.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <44334C65.7010508@DakotaCom.Net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 04 April 2006 10:23 pm, Don Y wrote: >>>> Or, using INR M to 'test' flags. >>> Yep! >> THogh this caused all sorts of problems when I got my first >> ICE! :-( (think about it :> ) > > Never used one, so I'm not sure how you mean here. With an emulator, the code often resides in *RAM*. If you don't configure the emulator to treat the RAM *as if* it was *ROM* (ie. write protect it), then INR M doesn't work! (well, actually, it works the *first* time you use it, but not thereafter! :>) >>> Sometimes I like the absolutely minimalist approach to things, too. One >>> of these days I'm gonna dig that code out, burn it, and see how small a >>> z80 box I can build that'll still prove useful for all sorts of things. >>> I sure have enough of those parts on hand here... >> I have a tiny multitasking executive that runs in a handful of >> bytes. Slick as snot -- if you adopt its coding style. > > For the z80? I'd sure like to see that if so. I'll dig up the paper I wrote on it and send it off list. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 5 00:17:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 22:17:32 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604050325.k353PmK5023470@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200604050325.k353PmK5023470@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200604042217320176.30BF0F50@10.0.0.252> On 4/4/2006 at 11:25 PM Brad Parker wrote: >more on topic, good compilers spend a lot of time optimizing the 'tree' >of processed source long before generating any code. And most they days >spend a lot of time in the 'register transfer' stage working on the data >flow before writing any code. By the time they get around to emitting >code it's pretty straight forward and doesn't rely on nuances of >instructions. a gross oversimplification, but you get the point. When I was part of a compiler-writing operation for FORTRAN for the ETA-10, I was given the job of "backend implementation". Every other programmer in a staff of 17 were frontend or optimization specialists. By the time the code tree got to me, all I had to do was walk it, perform a few peephole optimizations that were machine-specific and output the code (and listing if desired). Even register usage had been pretty much already determined by the time things got to me (I was free to use a small number of temporaries). It was pretty mindless work, actually. All of the fancy work had already been done. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 5 00:25:15 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 22:25:15 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <44332164.7040408@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <1144123068.22246.12.camel@aragorn> <200604032251250220.2BB7BDFC@10.0.0.252> <44326672.6080304@DakotaCom.Net> <200604040723290948.2D8C91F2@10.0.0.252> <4432A7DD.3080506@DakotaCom.Net> <200604041200560791.2E8A9407@10.0.0.252> <44332164.7040408@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200604042225150627.30C621A6@10.0.0.252> On 4/4/2006 at 6:46 PM Don Y wrote: >I don't think they are the same beasts. But, I think they (or >something with a P/N similar to that) sticks in my mind as a >viable alternative to Z80's at one time... Maybe you're thinking of the Zilog "official" part numbers. The 8400 was the CPU, the 8430, the CTC; the 8470, the DART, etc. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 5 00:50:05 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 22:50:05 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604042312.11229.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <200604041526.13773.rtellason@blazenet.net> <44332A34.8030809@DakotaCom.Net> <200604042312.11229.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200604042250050524.30DCDD80@10.0.0.252> On 4/4/2006 at 10:12 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Yup! I just like orthagonality, I guess... > >Blame that H-11 that was my first hand-on exposure to a computer for >spoiling my expectations in that regard. :-) It's funny that the GI CP1600 never caught on--8 16-bit registers, R7 being PC and R6 being the stack pointer, R4 and R5 being auto-increment and R0-R3 being general purpose. Very clean and easy to program. As far as I know, the Activision game boxes were the only consumer products to use it. Cheers, Chuck From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed Apr 5 01:12:26 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2006 23:12:26 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604042225150627.30C621A6@10.0.0.252> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <1144123068.22246.12.camel@aragorn> <200604032251250220.2BB7BDFC@10.0.0.252> <44326672.6080304@DakotaCom.Net> <200604040723290948.2D8C91F2@10.0.0.252> <4432A7DD.3080506@DakotaCom.Net> <200604041200560791.2E8A9407@10.0.0.252> <44332164.7040408@DakotaCom.Net> <200604042225150627.30C621A6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44335FCA.2020204@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/4/2006 at 6:46 PM Don Y wrote: > >> I don't think they are the same beasts. But, I think they (or >> something with a P/N similar to that) sticks in my mind as a >> viable alternative to Z80's at one time... > > Maybe you're thinking of the Zilog "official" part numbers. The 8400 was > the CPU, the 8430, the CTC; the 8470, the DART, etc. No, this was a 3xxx part number. And I am pretty sure it was a Mostek part. I know it wasn';t a "Z80" but it was something that grabbed our interest at the time (we were having problems getting certain Zilog peripherals...) From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Apr 3 12:28:54 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Message from Hans in Kiev Message-ID: Hans Franke asked me to pass along this message: > *1 - hmmm... do you think it might be a nice idea if > you'd call out on the ClassicCmp list that I'm in > Kiew/Ukraine, and if there's a fello collector > arround, he can give me a call? +380 67 878 9401 (I > got me a local SIM card to save money). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Apr 5 03:17:35 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 01:17:35 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <1144123068.22246.12.camel@aragorn> <200604032251250220.2BB7BDFC@10.0.0.252> <44326672.6080304@DakotaCom.Net> <200604040723290948.2D8C91F2@10.0.0.252> <4432A7DD.3080506@DakotaCom.Net> <200604041200560791.2E8A9407@10.0.0.252> <44332164.7040408@DakotaCom.Net> <200604042225150627.30C621A6@10.0.0.252> <44335FCA.2020204@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44337D14.34C4E1DD@cs.ubc.ca> Don Y wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 4/4/2006 at 6:46 PM Don Y wrote: > > > >> I don't think they are the same beasts. But, I think they (or > >> something with a P/N similar to that) sticks in my mind as a > >> viable alternative to Z80's at one time... > > > > Maybe you're thinking of the Zilog "official" part numbers. The 8400 was > > the CPU, the 8430, the CTC; the 8470, the DART, etc. > > No, this was a 3xxx part number. And I am pretty sure it > was a Mostek part. I know it wasn';t a "Z80" but it was > something that grabbed our interest at the time (we were > having problems getting certain Zilog peripherals...) Mostek's #s for the Z80 family were MK388x: MK3880 : Z80 CPU MK3881 : PIO MK3882 : CTC etc. (ref: IC Master 1982) Presumably chosen by Mostek to be as close as possible to the MK385x, MK387x F8 family numbers just to make the probability of confusing everyone as high as possible. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Apr 5 03:51:12 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 01:51:12 -0700 Subject: Way OT: LORAN-C (was Re: Programmer's conundrums) References: <200604041451.k34EpksT031650@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4432A71A.7020600@DakotaCom.Net> <4432B4F7.9020507@jetnet.ab.ca> <443320E3.6000408@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <443384F6.D475AA0@cs.ubc.ca> Don Y wrote: >... > So, you have to capture the incoming coordinates, solve the > difference equations to map the hyperbolae onto a spherical > globe, compensate for the *oblateness* of that globe, do > a 2D mercator projection, scale it to the desired user's > scale and then drive X & Y motors to move the pen from > where you were (last update) to where you *are* (in a straight > line, of course) -- without running off the edge of the page, > etc. > > In addition to driving the multiplexed displays, scanning the > keyboard (debouncing keys, etc.), interacting with the user, etc. > > Nowadays, I could code the whole thing in a month or so. > But, it sure wouldn't fit in that hardware footprint! > (keep in mind, 2Kx8 EPROMs were $50 at the time... $250 just > to store the code!) > ... > --don It sounds like you programmed a receiver some time ago.. I don't have the manuf./model at hand but I know of a loran receiver with blue front panel, lots of incandescent 7-seg displays, I think it was an 8080 CPU inside - sound familiar? Is loran off the air now or is it still hanging on? It might be fun to connect up an antenna and see if the above still works. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Apr 5 07:58:51 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 05:58:51 -0700 Subject: Replacing 80C188 and 68HC11 In-Reply-To: References: <200603250950510490.59EA115D@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <200604050558510294.0E69810F@192.168.42.129> Good day, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 26-Mar-06 at 13:03 Wai-Sun Chia wrote: >On 3/26/06, Bruce Lane wrote: >> In this same instrument is a Motorola MC68HC11A0FNC11W in a >PLCC-52 package. I need to find a viable replacement for it as well. I've >had a harder time tracking down possible replacements for it. The only >ones I've come across so far, that are available without an enormous >minimum purchase, are the MC68HC11E0CFN2, the MC68HC11E1CFN2, and the >MC68HC11E1CFN3. >> > >I have a couple of spare MC68HC11A1CFN3 in a PLCC-52 package. >Would this work? Regrettably not. The HC11 series are, as it turns out, far more picky about suffixes than the 80C188. In this case, the A0 sports 256 bytes of on-chip RAM, whereas the A1 sports 512. Although pin-compatible, the microcode in the unit I have is written to support an A0. I have since located a couple of HC11A0 series from Newark, so that issue is solved for now. I've also located some 80C188XL's, so all is well for the moment. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Apr 5 09:18:53 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 10:18:53 -0400 Subject: Way OT: LORAN-C (was Re: Programmer's conundrums) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Apr 2006 01:51:12 PDT." <443384F6.D475AA0@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200604051418.k35EIrkn027482@mwave.heeltoe.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > >Is loran off the air now or is it still hanging on? It might be fun to connect >up an antenna and see if the above still works. I thought loran almost died and then something was done to fix the mid-contenent gap and then almost died and then, for some reason made a big resurgence - maybe in response to the need for a "plan b" in case GPS stops working or is jammed... anyway, I thought it was funded again and going strong. Did I make that up? (always nice to have a plan B when cruising at FL 350 :-) no doubt also helpful in the middle of the atlantic) -brad From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 5 09:26:33 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 09:26:33 -0500 Subject: Way Way Way Way OT: LORAN-C (was Re: Programmer's conundrums) References: <200604051418.k35EIrkn027482@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <000901c658bc$f1e6d290$6800a8c0@BILLING> TSIA From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed Apr 5 09:28:54 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 07:28:54 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <44337D14.34C4E1DD@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <1144123068.22246.12.camel@aragorn> <200604032251250220.2BB7BDFC@10.0.0.252> <44326672.6080304@DakotaCom.Net> <200604040723290948.2D8C91F2@10.0.0.252> <4432A7DD.3080506@DakotaCom.Net> <200604041200560791.2E8A9407@10.0.0.252> <44332164.7040408@DakotaCom.Net> <200604042225150627.30C621A6@10.0.0.252> <44335FCA.2020204@DakotaCom.Net> <44337D14.34C4E1DD@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4433D426.9070100@DakotaCom.Net> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Don Y wrote: >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> On 4/4/2006 at 6:46 PM Don Y wrote: >>> >>>> I don't think they are the same beasts. But, I think they (or >>>> something with a P/N similar to that) sticks in my mind as a >>>> viable alternative to Z80's at one time... >>> Maybe you're thinking of the Zilog "official" part numbers. The 8400 was >>> the CPU, the 8430, the CTC; the 8470, the DART, etc. >> No, this was a 3xxx part number. And I am pretty sure it >> was a Mostek part. I know it wasn';t a "Z80" but it was >> something that grabbed our interest at the time (we were >> having problems getting certain Zilog peripherals...) > > Mostek's #s for the Z80 family were MK388x: > MK3880 : Z80 CPU > MK3881 : PIO > MK3882 : CTC > etc. Ah, OK. But, IIRC, there is a very subtle difference between the Zilog parts and the Mostek's. But, I'm sure it was in some really obscure aspect of the device, not the obvious characteristics (the firm I was with at the time was fond of pushing the envelope on designs... undoc'd opcodes, subtle timing hacks in the hardware, etc.). Dunno. I just remember *needing* an alternate, looking at their (Mostek) part and deciding it wasn't quite right... :< > (ref: IC Master 1982) > > Presumably chosen by Mostek to be as close as possible to the MK385x, MK387x > F8 family numbers just to make the probability of confusing everyone as high > as possible. No, *that* distinction goes to the bozos at TI with their non-2732, 2732 (IIRC). So, if you wanted what the rest of the world called a 2732, you had to order a 2532! (IIRC, 3 power supplies on their 2732..?) From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed Apr 5 09:35:29 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 07:35:29 -0700 Subject: Way OT: LORAN-C (was Re: Programmer's conundrums) In-Reply-To: <443384F6.D475AA0@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200604041451.k34EpksT031650@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4432A71A.7020600@DakotaCom.Net> <4432B4F7.9020507@jetnet.ab.ca> <443320E3.6000408@DakotaCom.Net> <443384F6.D475AA0@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4433D5B1.1050009@DakotaCom.Net> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Don Y wrote: >> ... >> So, you have to capture the incoming coordinates, solve the >> difference equations to map the hyperbolae onto a spherical >> globe, compensate for the *oblateness* of that globe, do >> a 2D mercator projection, scale it to the desired user's >> scale and then drive X & Y motors to move the pen from >> where you were (last update) to where you *are* (in a straight >> line, of course) -- without running off the edge of the page, >> etc. >> >> In addition to driving the multiplexed displays, scanning the >> keyboard (debouncing keys, etc.), interacting with the user, etc. >> >> Nowadays, I could code the whole thing in a month or so. >> But, it sure wouldn't fit in that hardware footprint! >> (keep in mind, 2Kx8 EPROMs were $50 at the time... $250 just >> to store the code!) >> ... >> --don > > It sounds like you programmed a receiver some time ago.. I don't have the > manuf./model at hand but I know of a loran receiver with blue front panel, > lots of incandescent 7-seg displays, I think it was an 8080 CPU inside - sound familiar? No, I was only involved in the plotter (CPLOT-2). We had an "all hardware" receiver that predated me. And, a CPU-based receiver that was designed alongside the plotter (but I think it was a white face). IIRC, we used PGD's for our displays (I know the plotter did). I also designed an autopilot "peripheral" (to the plotter) that allowed you to enter geographical coordinates of your desired destination and it would steer the boat *to* that point (instead of just blindly keeping the boat pointed in a certain direction) while compensating for drift, etc. (I also learned that you should never go below deck when in the Atlantic :< ) > Is loran off the air now or is it still hanging on? It might be fun to connect > up an antenna and see if the above still works. I *thought* it was decommissioned a few years ago. But, it's been 25+ years (gulp!) since I was involved with LORAN in any way (however, it's the type of thing that, once you get exposed to all the wacky details of how it works, it kind of sticks in your mind :> ) From Mzthompson at aol.com Wed Apr 5 10:10:51 2006 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 11:10:51 EDT Subject: OT: Memory Available - 2 gb Message-ID: <233.9eb0acd.316537fb@aol.com> I won a pallet of machines at auction and there was a monitor sized box on top on the machines full of flotsam and stuff. Found a board with memory down in the box. I say OT as the memory is date coded 1998 and 2003. There board is a DELL memory expansion board, probably from a server with 16 memory sockets. It's 1998 vintage. On the board are 8 sticks of 256 mb memory, 168 pin DIMM. The tag on 4 sticks says 256mb, EDO, 50ns, ECC. They are Micron MT36LD3272G-5 X. The other 4 sticks are SEC KMM372F3200BK4-5 This is not SDRAM. The notch near pin 1 is in the center, not offset as with SDRAM. The memory sockets are marked STD DRAM, not UDRAM. I don't forsee ever using this memory so I will make it available here. I am asking $45 for the eight sticks and that includes shipping anywere in the USA. If by chance you want the board also, I'll include it as a bonus. I don't have any way to test this memory but will offer a refund in the event. Mike Thompson From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Apr 5 10:26:49 2006 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 11:26:49 EDT Subject: OT: Memory Available - 2 gb Message-ID: <220.a8f9b5f.31653bb9@aol.com> In a message dated 4/5/2006 11:15:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Mzthompson at aol.com writes: I won a pallet of machines at auction and there was a monitor sized box on top on the machines full of flotsam and stuff. Found a board with memory down in the box. I say OT as the memory is date coded 1998 and 2003. There board is a DELL memory expansion board, probably from a server with 16 memory sockets. It's 1998 vintage. On the board are 8 sticks of 256 mb memory, 168 pin DIMM. The tag on 4 sticks says 256mb, EDO, 50ns, ECC. They are Micron MT36LD3272G-5 X. The other 4 sticks are SEC KMM372F3200BK4-5 Mike Thompson ---------------- Just in case anyone is interested, the part is probably from a dell poweredge 6400 series. The memory is buffered IIRC as the notches are positioned differently. From vrs at msn.com Wed Apr 5 10:45:30 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 08:45:30 -0700 Subject: register-impoverished childhoods was Re: Z80 TRAP and CP/M References: <200604050004.k3504wAr020058@floodgap.com> Message-ID: From: "Cameron Kaiser" > Since you brought it up :) what OSes can you run on a 4K PDP-8? There are a bunch of stand-alone programs, and a 4K Disk Management System that lets you load and save programs from disk. Depends on how you define OS, I guess. (The resident part of the OS is pretty much just a bootstrap to get the command language interpreter back into memory.) More OSes run in an 8K PDP-8 :-). Vince From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 5 10:49:39 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 08:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported Message-ID: <200604051549.k35Fnd51019342@floodgap.com> Apple is announcing *official* support for Windows XP dual booting on the Intel Macs. (The end has come.) http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2006/apr/05bootcamp.html -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I am NOT defensive! I'M NOT I'M NOT I'M NOT!!!! ---------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 5 10:50:56 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 08:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 4k/8k PDP-8 OSes was Re: register-impoverished childhoods In-Reply-To: <01c701c658c7$f84a6880$6700a8c0@vrs> from vrs at "Apr 5, 6 08:45:30 am" Message-ID: <200604051550.k35FouXr017590@floodgap.com> > > Since you brought it up :) what OSes can you run on a 4K PDP-8? > > There are a bunch of stand-alone programs, and a 4K Disk Management > System that lets you load and save programs from disk. Depends on > how you define OS, I guess. (The resident part of the OS is pretty > much just a bootstrap to get the command language interpreter back > into memory.) > > More OSes run in an 8K PDP-8 :-). Such as? (Subject line changed) I'm just curious since I've always found its instruction set fascinating. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends? --------------- From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed Apr 5 11:17:01 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 09:17:01 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604050313.k353DEvL019892@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200604050313.k353DEvL019892@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4433ED7D.20109@DakotaCom.Net> > And I totally agree with your point about packing bits and loss of > carry. The things I've done to get carry in C. Particularly frustrating when dealing with multiple precision arithmetic. You just *know* that if you were writing it in ASM, the carry would be there "for free". Yet, you have to add a separate step to deliberately synthesize it in C (or, change the fundamental algorithm that you use -- which just obfuscates that little detail) Sort of like converting to decimal: digit = value % 10; value /= 10; whereas if you were writing it in ASM, both results would be available to you in the same operation (though, with access to ASM, you would probably use a faster algorithm!) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 5 11:27:53 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 09:27:53 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <4433D426.9070100@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <1144123068.22246.12.camel@aragorn> <200604032251250220.2BB7BDFC@10.0.0.252> <44326672.6080304@DakotaCom.Net> <200604040723290948.2D8C91F2@10.0.0.252> <4432A7DD.3080506@DakotaCom.Net> <200604041200560791.2E8A9407@10.0.0.252> <44332164.7040408@DakotaCom.Net> <200604042225150627.30C621A6@10.0.0.252> <44335FCA.2020204@DakotaCom.Net> <44337D14.34C4E1DD@cs.ubc.ca> <4433D426.9070100@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200604050927530298.3324C8F6@10.0.0.252> On 4/5/2006 at 7:28 AM Don Y wrote: >No, *that* distinction goes to the bozos at TI with their >non-2732, 2732 (IIRC). So, if you wanted what the rest of >the world called a 2732, you had to order a 2532! (IIRC, 3 >power supplies on their 2732..?) We shouldn't also forget the NEC 8080A that didn't run quite the same as the Intel part; the "74L" low power TTL logic series that had different pinouts from the standard line, or the 24-vs-28 pin EPROMs with the same number, or the wildiy different programmig conventions for same-numbered parts from different vendors. All just part of the job... Cheers, Chuck From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Apr 5 11:36:09 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 12:36:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported In-Reply-To: <200604051549.k35Fnd51019342@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20060405163609.CC380580A2@mail.wordstock.com> > > Apple is announcing *official* support for Windows XP dual booting on the > Intel Macs. (The end has come.) > > http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2006/apr/05bootcamp.html > So now what is the difference between an Intel Mac and PC? Cheers, Bryan From vrs at msn.com Wed Apr 5 11:39:02 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 09:39:02 -0700 Subject: 4k/8k PDP-8 OSes was Re: register-impoverished childhoods References: <200604051550.k35FouXr017590@floodgap.com> Message-ID: From: "Cameron Kaiser" > > More OSes run in an 8K PDP-8 :-). > > Such as? (Subject line changed) > > I'm just curious since I've always found its instruction set fascinating. Well, I don't pretend to have a complete list or anything, but there's the bigger brother to DMS (and much nicer), OS/8. Also COS, ETOS, TSS-8, PS-8, MULTOS8, etc. (I'm not sure all will run in 8K; some might require 12K.) I use OS/8, myself. It seems to have the most stuff floating around online. (OK, I don't use it much, but it is what I mostly use when working on my PDP-8's.) Vince From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 5 11:39:14 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 10:39:14 -0600 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 05 Apr 2006 09:17:01 -0700. <4433ED7D.20109@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: In article <4433ED7D.20109 at DakotaCom.Net>, Don Y writes: > [...] You just *know* that if you were writing it in > ASM, the carry would be there "for free". Yet, you have > to add a separate step to deliberately synthesize it in C In defense of C, its approach to this problem is to allow you to link against a chunk of assembly code that implements any function for which its cumbersome to implement it in C because of low-level bit fiddling, or whatever. Most, if not all, compilers also have provisions for inline assembly in the C source code. So C really does provide solutions for this problem. Its not like Pascal where you're *forced* to do things the stupid way. C lets you use assembly where needed. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From kth at srv.net Wed Apr 5 11:57:27 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 10:57:27 -0600 Subject: register-impoverished childhoods was Re: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <443302B7.3010606@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200604042309.k34N94U8015742@floodgap.com> <443302B7.3010606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4433F6F7.7030706@srv.net> woodelf wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> Or a 6502. I don't know what to *do* with all the other registers on >> other architectures. ^_^;; > > > The first computer I got to use was a PDP-8. You get a Program Counter > and a Accumulator. :) > And NO stack. Might as well mention the intresting missing items too. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 5 11:50:06 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 09:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported In-Reply-To: <20060405163609.CC380580A2@mail.wordstock.com> from Bryan Pope at "Apr 5, 6 12:36:09 pm" Message-ID: <200604051650.k35Go6jY016174@floodgap.com> > > Apple is announcing *official* support for Windows XP dual booting on the > > Intel Macs. (The end has come.) > > > > http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2006/apr/05bootcamp.html > > So now what is the difference between an Intel Mac and PC? Now, not much. That's why the end has come. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Any clod can have the facts, but having an opinion is an art. -- C. McCabe - From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Apr 5 11:49:14 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 09:49:14 -0700 Subject: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported In-Reply-To: <20060405163609.CC380580A2@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060405163609.CC380580A2@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <4433F50A.6050507@msm.umr.edu> Bryan Pope wrote: > >So now what is the difference between an Intel Mac and PC? > > > the mac is still horribly over priced. sorry for the OT reply but I couldn't help myself. From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Apr 5 11:57:04 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 11:57:04 -0500 Subject: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported In-Reply-To: <4433F50A.6050507@msm.umr.edu> References: <20060405163609.CC380580A2@mail.wordstock.com> <4433F50A.6050507@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4433F6E0.8020407@mdrconsult.com> jim stephens wrote: > Bryan Pope wrote: > >> >> So now what is the difference between an Intel Mac and PC? >> >> > the mac is still horribly over priced. > sorry for the OT reply but I couldn't help myself. Eh? MacBook Pro costs less than a similarly specced Dell. Doc From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Apr 5 11:57:29 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 12:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <4433ED7D.20109@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200604050313.k353DEvL019892@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4433ED7D.20109@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200604051659.MAA27375@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > digit = value % 10; > value /= 10; > whereas if you were writing it in ASM, both results would be > available to you in the same operation Not necessarily; not all machines have a divide instruction that produces both quotient and reminader. (Indeed, some don't have a divide instruction at all - or are those the ones you were thinking of?) On those that do have a divide that produces both quo & rem, a good compiler will notice that you have both a/b and a%b in close proximity and collapse them. (Not all compilers are "good", of course.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 5 12:08:01 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 10:08:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported In-Reply-To: <200604051549.k35Fnd51019342@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 05, 2006 08:49:39 AM Message-ID: <200604051708.k35H81hu019221@onyx.spiritone.com> > Apple is announcing *official* support for Windows XP dual booting on the > Intel Macs. (The end has come.) > > http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2006/apr/05bootcamp.html Cool, as a Mac user that occasionally has to use Windows software, that is *GOOD* news. Especially as I'm stuck providing tech support for a couple people that *have* to run some Windows apps. Now if they'd let you do OS Virtualization (the rumor sites are talking about doing Mac OS X, Windows, and Linux in the next OS release), that would really rock! Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 5 12:31:37 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 10:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported In-Reply-To: <200604051650.k35Go6jY016174@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 05, 2006 09:50:06 AM Message-ID: <200604051731.k35HVbAD020321@onyx.spiritone.com> > > > Apple is announcing *official* support for Windows XP dual booting on the > > > Intel Macs. (The end has come.) > > > > > > http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2006/apr/05bootcamp.html > > > > So now what is the difference between an Intel Mac and PC? > > Now, not much. That's why the end has come. No, that will be when they start porting things like iLife and Final Cut to Windows. On an interesting note, I wonder how many Mac users even feel the need to run Windows apps? Though I can see this potentially killing the Mac game market... Zane From sb at thebackend.de Wed Apr 5 12:35:22 2006 From: sb at thebackend.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sebastian_Br=FCckner?=) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 19:35:22 +0200 Subject: register-impoverished childhoods was Re: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <4433F6F7.7030706@srv.net> References: <200604042309.k34N94U8015742@floodgap.com> <443302B7.3010606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4433F6F7.7030706@srv.net> Message-ID: <4433FFDA.5080002@thebackend.de> Kevin Handy schrieb: > woodelf wrote: >> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> The first computer I got to use was a PDP-8. You get a Program Counter >> and a Accumulator. :) >> > And NO stack. Might as well mention the intresting missing items too. And the really weird ideas... like storing the return address in the first word of a subroutine. Sebastian From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 5 12:36:02 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 10:36:02 -0700 Subject: register-impoverished childhoods was Re: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <4433F6F7.7030706@srv.net> References: <200604042309.k34N94U8015742@floodgap.com> <443302B7.3010606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4433F6F7.7030706@srv.net> Message-ID: <200604051036020269.33632D58@10.0.0.252> On 4/5/2006 at 10:57 AM Kevin Handy wrote: >> The first computer I got to use was a PDP-8. You get a Program Counter >> and a Accumulator. :) >> >And NO stack. Might as well mention the intresting missing items too. My first "Hands on" was an IBM 1620. No accumulator or stack. Decimal arithmetic--and you had to load the addition and mulitplication tables yourself. Variable word and record length, so you could easily clear memory several ways using a single instruction...sometimes when you actually intended to do it. Lotsa blinkenlights, though! Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 5 12:46:25 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 12:46:25 -0500 Subject: register-impoverished childhoods was Re: Z80 TRAP and CP/M References: <200604042309.k34N94U8015742@floodgap.com><443302B7.3010606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4433F6F7.7030706@srv.net> <200604051036020269.33632D58@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <001901c658d8$ddea0700$6800a8c0@BILLING> I don't call it "register-impoverished", that's too negative a term. I'd prefer to call it "extraneous register-free" :) I've always loved the simplicity of the 6502, 6809, HP2100... expressly because there was just one or two accumulators, and just one or two more registers for indexing or scratch. Early RISC ;) I always loathed the more complex x86 type architectures that sported lots more (comparatively) registers. They felt very "calculator-like" to me. Jay From vrs at msn.com Wed Apr 5 12:47:37 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 10:47:37 -0700 Subject: register-impoverished childhoods was Re: Z80 TRAP and CP/M References: <200604042309.k34N94U8015742@floodgap.com> <443302B7.3010606@jetnet.ab.ca><4433F6F7.7030706@srv.net> <4433FFDA.5080002@thebackend.de> Message-ID: From: "Sebastian Br?ckner" > Kevin Handy schrieb: > > woodelf wrote: > >> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> The first computer I got to use was a PDP-8. You get a Program Counter > >> and a Accumulator. :) > >> > > And NO stack. Might as well mention the intresting missing items too. > > And the really weird ideas... like storing the return address in the > first word of a subroutine. Gotta store it somewhere; there's no stack, and it's a single address machine :-). Vince From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 5 12:50:55 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 10:50:55 -0700 Subject: register-impoverished childhoods was Re: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <4433FFDA.5080002@thebackend.de> References: <200604042309.k34N94U8015742@floodgap.com> <443302B7.3010606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4433F6F7.7030706@srv.net> <4433FFDA.5080002@thebackend.de> Message-ID: <200604051050550602.3370CEE4@10.0.0.252> On 4/5/2006 at 7:35 PM Sebastian Br?ckner wrote: >And the really weird ideas... like storing the return address in the >first word of a subroutine. That one goes way back before the PDP-8. Even before CALL instructions, one of the standard ways was to store the return address in a jump instruction at the front of the subroutine being called. Here's an example for the CDC 160A: http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/cdc160/man/jump.html So it was pretty natural that machines would eventually implement the sequence in hardware. The CDC 6000/7000 PPU, which is the direct descended of the 160A did just that. Who needs all of those fancy instructions, anyway? Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 5 13:19:14 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 11:19:14 -0700 Subject: P?S/8 (was 4k/8k PDP-8 OSes) Message-ID: There is a history of Lasner's P?S/8 up at http://www.idkcomp.com/p?s.html What I was wondering is if P?S/8 is available anywhere.. From spc at conman.org Wed Apr 5 13:34:16 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 14:34:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <4433ED7D.20109@DakotaCom.Net> from "Don Y" at Apr 05, 2006 09:17:01 AM Message-ID: <20060405183417.D29E973029@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Don Y once stated: > > > And I totally agree with your point about packing bits and loss of > > carry. The things I've done to get carry in C. > > Particularly frustrating when dealing with multiple precision > arithmetic. You just *know* that if you were writing it in > ASM, the carry would be there "for free". Yet, you have > to add a separate step to deliberately synthesize it in C > (or, change the fundamental algorithm that you use -- which > just obfuscates that little detail) > > Sort of like converting to decimal: > > digit = value % 10; > value /= 10; C has the div() function, which returns both the quotient and remainder. Most modern compilers should inline this function. But yes, I do miss having access to the carry bit, but the level of code I'm writing nowadays has made that less of an issue. -spc (Besides, there's the Gnu Multiprecision Math library, which has assembly support for a large number of architectures ... ) From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 13:43:04 2006 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 12:43:04 -0600 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060405124256.021d60c8@earthlink.net> actually it was the Intel bozos. Intel released the triple supply 2708 then TI released their triple supply TMS2716. Intel released the 2716 single supply and then TI was forced to create a single supply chip and they called it the TMS2516. I don't recall TI ever making a triple 2732 by the way(probably did, bit I don't remember). TI stuck with the 25xx designations because they did not want to confuse their earlier triple 2716. best regards, Steve Thatcher >>(ref: IC Master 1982) >>Presumably chosen by Mostek to be as close as possible to the MK385x, MK387x >>F8 family numbers just to make the probability of confusing everyone as high >>as possible. > >No, *that* distinction goes to the bozos at TI with their >non-2732, 2732 (IIRC). So, if you wanted what the rest of >the world called a 2732, you had to order a 2532! (IIRC, 3 >power supplies on their 2732..?) From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed Apr 5 13:51:59 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 11:51:59 -0700 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060405124256.021d60c8@earthlink.net> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060405124256.021d60c8@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <443411CF.3080303@DakotaCom.Net> Steve Thatcher wrote: > actually it was the Intel bozos. Intel released the triple supply 2708 Well, the 1702 and 2704 both were triple supply. But, it seems like *everyone* went to a single supply at the 2716. I only recall having problems with TI being "odd man out"... > then TI released their triple supply TMS2716. Intel released the 2716 > single supply and then TI was forced to create a single supply chip and > they called it the TMS2516. I don't recall TI ever making a triple 2732 > by the way(probably did, bit I don't remember). TI stuck with the 25xx > designations because they did not want to confuse their earlier triple > 2716. I recall it being amusing to compare die sizes of the Intel vs. Hitachi (for example) parts. Intels were always so nice and tiny while Hitachi's were HUGE (by comparison). Yet, somehow the bigger die ended up being cheaper for them (quantity? subsidies??). And, *laughing* over the idea of OTP's ... gee, amusing how times have changed! From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed Apr 5 13:55:43 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 11:55:43 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604051659.MAA27375@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200604050313.k353DEvL019892@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4433ED7D.20109@DakotaCom.Net> <200604051659.MAA27375@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <443412AF.3030901@DakotaCom.Net> der Mouse wrote: >> digit = value % 10; >> value /= 10; >> whereas if you were writing it in ASM, both results would be >> available to you in the same operation > > Not necessarily; not all machines have a divide instruction that > produces both quotient and reminader. (Indeed, some don't have a > divide instruction at all - or are those the ones you were thinking > of?) *Exactly*! If you have to do the divide yourself (i.e. in ASM), you end up with both results for free. If, OTOH, you write in a HLL *on this same class of machine*, the compiler writes code to do the divide (typically, just calls a "helper" function), discards the remainder and then goes to work on the modulus operation... :-( (point being, compilers aren't all created equally as processors aren't -- the differences in efficiency of compiled code vs. ASM can vary tremendously depending on what you are working on) > On those that do have a divide that produces both quo & rem, a good > compiler will notice that you have both a/b and a%b in close proximity > and collapse them. (Not all compilers are "good", of course.) From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed Apr 5 13:57:51 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 11:57:51 -0700 Subject: register-impoverished childhoods was Re: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <001901c658d8$ddea0700$6800a8c0@BILLING> References: <200604042309.k34N94U8015742@floodgap.com><443302B7.3010606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4433F6F7.7030706@srv.net> <200604051036020269.33632D58@10.0.0.252> <001901c658d8$ddea0700$6800a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4434132F.7090202@DakotaCom.Net> Jay West wrote: > I don't call it "register-impoverished", that's too negative a term. I'd > prefer to call it "extraneous register-free" :) > > I've always loved the simplicity of the 6502, 6809, HP2100... expressly > because there was just one or two accumulators, and just one or two more > registers for indexing or scratch. Early RISC ;) I always loathed the > more complex x86 type architectures that sported lots more > (comparatively) registers. They felt very "calculator-like" to me. Register-rich *orthogonal* instruction set -- not intel's bastardization of a bastardization of a bastardization... :-( From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed Apr 5 14:03:06 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 12:03:06 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <20060405183417.D29E973029@linus.area51.conman.org> References: <20060405183417.D29E973029@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: <4434146A.5070109@DakotaCom.Net> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Don Y once stated: >>> And I totally agree with your point about packing bits and loss of >>> carry. The things I've done to get carry in C. >> Particularly frustrating when dealing with multiple precision >> arithmetic. You just *know* that if you were writing it in >> ASM, the carry would be there "for free". Yet, you have >> to add a separate step to deliberately synthesize it in C >> (or, change the fundamental algorithm that you use -- which >> just obfuscates that little detail) >> >> Sort of like converting to decimal: >> >> digit = value % 10; >> value /= 10; > > C has the div() function, which returns both the quotient and remainder. > Most modern compilers should inline this function. Most modern compilers for "big" machines. The point I've been making is that many machines aren't big and have hackish compilers, at best. So, even if you code div() yourself, (as many standard libraries with these hacky compilers are equally hacky! -- implementing div() *as* the code fragment I mentioned above!) there's no way of coaxing the compiler to be smart enough to use it efficiently. C isnt always C (you've got folks like ZWorld claiming to "improve" it, etc.) > But yes, I do miss having access to the carry bit, but the level of code > I'm writing nowadays has made that less of an issue. > > -spc (Besides, there's the Gnu Multiprecision Math library, which has > assembly support for a large number of architectures ... ) Again, *big* machines! :> From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Apr 5 14:37:02 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 15:37:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported In-Reply-To: <4433F6E0.8020407@mdrconsult.com> References: <20060405163609.CC380580A2@mail.wordstock.com> <4433F50A.6050507@msm.umr.edu> <4433F6E0.8020407@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200604051940.PAA28724@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> So now what is the difference between an Intel Mac and PC? > the mac is still horribly over priced. Even if the Mac's sticker price is more than the peecee's (and I saw one comment in this thread which implies it isn't, though I am familiar with neither's price point myself), this does not necessarily make the Mac overpriced. I've never seen an Intel-CPU Mac. But I've seen recent PowerPC Macs, and if they stick to the same level of quality, the Intel Mac is worth signifcantly more money than a commodity peecee with similar paper specs. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 5 14:46:28 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 12:46:28 -0700 Subject: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported Message-ID: I wonder how many Mac users even feel the need to run Windows apps? -- Only when I'm forced to by scanner vendors who only supply Windows drivers (book scanner, IS520, and Mekel microfiche scanner). I do absolutely nothing else on them, and use an exported RAID from a reliable system to store the resulting scans. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Apr 5 14:51:02 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 15:51:02 -0400 Subject: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported In-Reply-To: <200604051940.PAA28724@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20060405163609.CC380580A2@mail.wordstock.com> <4433F50A.6050507@msm.umr.edu> <4433F6E0.8020407@mdrconsult.com> <200604051940.PAA28724@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: I'm sorry to bring this up (I know I'm being a stick in the mud) but can we take this topic off the list. I'm a big mac user (in fact I'm typing this on my powerbook) but I like this list for the classic not the modern. Rob On Apr 5, 2006, at 3:37 PM, der Mouse wrote: >>> So now what is the difference between an Intel Mac and PC? >> the mac is still horribly over priced. > > Even if the Mac's sticker price is more than the peecee's (and I saw > one comment in this thread which implies it isn't, though I am > familiar > with neither's price point myself), this does not necessarily make the > Mac overpriced. I've never seen an Intel-CPU Mac. But I've seen > recent PowerPC Macs, and if they stick to the same level of quality, > the Intel Mac is worth signifcantly more money than a commodity peecee > with similar paper specs. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Apr 5 14:58:19 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 15:58:19 -0400 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604042225150627.30C621A6@10.0.0.252> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <44332164.7040408@DakotaCom.Net> <200604042225150627.30C621A6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200604051558.19559.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 05 April 2006 01:25 am, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/4/2006 at 6:46 PM Don Y wrote: > >I don't think they are the same beasts. But, I think they (or > >something with a P/N similar to that) sticks in my mind as a > >viable alternative to Z80's at one time... > > Maybe you're thinking of the Zilog "official" part numbers. The 8400 was > the CPU, the 8430, the CTC; the 8470, the DART, etc. I think I have some parts around that has some other company (SGS?) using that sort of numbering as well. Though they did put "Z80-(whatver) on the package as well. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Apr 5 14:59:12 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 15:59:12 -0400 Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604042250050524.30DCDD80@10.0.0.252> References: <200604021541190136.2507A313@10.0.0.252> <200604042312.11229.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604042250050524.30DCDD80@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200604051559.12674.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 05 April 2006 01:50 am, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/4/2006 at 10:12 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >Yup! I just like orthagonality, I guess... > > > >Blame that H-11 that was my first hand-on exposure to a computer for > >spoiling my expectations in that regard. :-) > > It's funny that the GI CP1600 never caught on--8 16-bit registers, R7 being > PC and R6 being the stack pointer, R4 and R5 being auto-increment and R0-R3 > being general purpose. Very clean and easy to program. As far as I know, > the Activision game boxes were the only consumer products to use it. Sounds nifty. But like a lot of other stuff in this industry, probably too much affected by marketing considerations and not enough by technical merit. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 5 15:05:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 13:05:37 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <4434146A.5070109@DakotaCom.Net> References: <20060405183417.D29E973029@linus.area51.conman.org> <4434146A.5070109@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200604051305370263.33EC1F91@10.0.0.252> On 4/5/2006 at 12:03 PM Don Y wrote: >Most modern compilers for "big" machines. >> But yes, I do miss having access to the carry bit, but the level of >code >> I'm writing nowadays has made that less of an issue. Some machine don't have a carry bit, so there's nothing to access. IMOHO, the biggest problem with HLL's versus assembly is when an architecture provides for a very useful instruction, but said instruction doesn't exactly fit into the language. For example, the MMX instrtuctions on the Pentium aren't terribly accessible from most Cs. So they're implemented as intrinsics at best--and at that point, you might as well be writing assembly. On the other hand, HLLs are very useful for automatically selecting instructions and optimizing them. I don't know what real-world gains are made by realing the gain from the fact that LOOP is slower on a 486 than a DEC CX, JNZ pair, but it's nice not to have to code for it. On the other hand, few C compilers can generate parallel versions of the same subroutine and say "If I'm running on machne that supports , I'll just use the other version. I've got lots of x86 assembly code that does just that when its determined that MMX is present or 386+ (32 bit registers) is available. The speed improvements in some cases can be substantial. One pleasure of a good optimizer is clever removal of invariants from the inside of a loop. It allows one to write what one means without worrying that the implementation is inefficient. Does anyone know of any optimizing assemblers ? That is, ones that will move instructions around for optimum scheduling? Cheers, Chuck From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Apr 5 15:10:46 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 15:10:46 -0500 Subject: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported In-Reply-To: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F11DE9F72@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: I agree, this wasn't even on topic to begin with - or even close to what's allowed as off-topic. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert Borsuk > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 2:51 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported > > I'm sorry to bring this up (I know I'm being a stick in the > mud) but can we take this topic off the list. I'm a big mac > user (in fact I'm typing this on my powerbook) but I like > this list for the classic not the modern. > > Rob > > > On Apr 5, 2006, at 3:37 PM, der Mouse wrote: > > >>> So now what is the difference between an Intel Mac and PC? > >> the mac is still horribly over priced. > > > > Even if the Mac's sticker price is more than the peecee's > (and I saw > > one comment in this thread which implies it isn't, though I am > > familiar with neither's price point myself), this does not > necessarily > > make the Mac overpriced. I've never seen an Intel-CPU Mac. > But I've > > seen recent PowerPC Macs, and if they stick to the same level of > > quality, the Intel Mac is worth signifcantly more money than a > > commodity peecee with similar paper specs. > > > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > > \ / Ribbon Campaign > > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Apr 5 15:15:47 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 16:15:47 -0400 Subject: register-impoverished childhoods was Re: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <4433F6F7.7030706@srv.net> References: <200604042309.k34N94U8015742@floodgap.com> <443302B7.3010606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4433F6F7.7030706@srv.net> Message-ID: <200604051615.47301.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 05 April 2006 12:57 pm, Kevin Handy wrote: > woodelf wrote: > > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> Or a 6502. I don't know what to *do* with all the other registers on > >> other architectures. ^_^;; > > > > The first computer I got to use was a PDP-8. You get a Program Counter > > and a Accumulator. :) > > And NO stack. Might as well mention the intresting missing items too. Yeah, that really put me off a bit... I had a PDP8, sitting in storage. Sold it to a guy a while back, after storing it for a few years and finally coming to the realization that I wasn't ever gonna do anything with it. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Apr 5 15:16:47 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 16:16:47 -0400 Subject: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported In-Reply-To: <20060405163609.CC380580A2@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060405163609.CC380580A2@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <200604051616.47796.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 05 April 2006 12:36 pm, Bryan Pope wrote: > > Apple is announcing *official* support for Windows XP dual booting on the > > Intel Macs. (The end has come.) > > > > http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2006/apr/05bootcamp.html > > So now what is the difference between an Intel Mac and PC? You need funny tools to open the mac, instead of a philips screwdriver... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Apr 5 15:40:26 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 21:40:26 +0100 Subject: P?S/8 (was 4k/8k PDP-8 OSes) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44342B3A.9090004@gjcp.net> Al Kossow wrote: > There is a history of Lasner's P?S/8 up at > http://www.idkcomp.com/p?s.html > > What I was wondering is if P?S/8 is available anywhere.. You probably want to rename that so it doesn't have a question mark in the filename - that normally denotes GET parameters to be passed to a CGI script and in this case makes your server send the document as text/plain. I've taken the liberty of renaming it and putting it here: http://www.gjcp.net/ps.html It is verbatim. If you'd rather I didn't, I'll remove it. Gordon. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 5 15:47:28 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 16:47:28 -0400 Subject: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported In-Reply-To: <200604051616.47796.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <20060405163609.CC380580A2@mail.wordstock.com> <200604051616.47796.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <44342CE0.1060309@gmail.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 05 April 2006 12:36 pm, Bryan Pope wrote: >>> Apple is announcing *official* support for Windows XP dual booting on the >>> Intel Macs. (The end has come.) >>> >>> http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2006/apr/05bootcamp.html >> So now what is the difference between an Intel Mac and PC? > > You need funny tools to open the mac, instead of a philips screwdriver... Actually, I tend to use a 1/4" socket-driver on my feces. Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 5 16:20:09 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 14:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <4433ED7D.20109@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200604050313.k353DEvL019892@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4433ED7D.20109@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <20060405141852.R88676@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Don Y wrote: > Sort of like converting to decimal: > digit = value % 10; > value /= 10; > whereas if you were writing it in ASM, both results would > be available to you in the same operation (though, with > access to ASM, you would probably use a faster algorithm!) Is it appropriate to expect job applicants to be familiar with AAM and DAA? From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed Apr 5 16:26:19 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 14:26:19 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <20060405141852.R88676@shell.lmi.net> References: <200604050313.k353DEvL019892@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4433ED7D.20109@DakotaCom.Net> <20060405141852.R88676@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <443435FB.3010704@DakotaCom.Net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Don Y wrote: >> Sort of like converting to decimal: >> digit = value % 10; >> value /= 10; >> whereas if you were writing it in ASM, both results would >> be available to you in the same operation (though, with >> access to ASM, you would probably use a faster algorithm!) > > Is it appropriate to expect job applicants to be familiar with AAM and > DAA? Depends on the job they are applying for. If they are writing code to maintain a manufacturing database, nope. If they are writing code to implement a "tape ruler" (i.e. retractable plastic/steel ruler used in construction) then most probably. (unless the processor chosen does all it's arithmetic in BCD!) From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 5 16:32:38 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 14:32:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported In-Reply-To: <44342CE0.1060309@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Apr 5, 6 04:47:28 pm" Message-ID: <200604052132.k35LWciU005420@floodgap.com> > >>> Apple is announcing *official* support for Windows XP dual booting on the > >>> Intel Macs. (The end has come.) > >>> > >>> http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2006/apr/05bootcamp.html > >> So now what is the difference between an Intel Mac and PC? > > > > You need funny tools to open the mac, instead of a philips screwdriver... > > Actually, I tend to use a 1/4" socket-driver on my feces. You should see a gastroenterologist about that. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A kindness done today is the surest way to a brighter tomorrow. -- Anonymous From vrs at msn.com Wed Apr 5 17:01:18 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 15:01:18 -0700 Subject: P?S/8 (was 4k/8k PDP-8 OSes) References: Message-ID: > There is a history of Lasner's P?S/8 up at > http://www.idkcomp.com/p?s.html > > What I was wondering is if P?S/8 is available anywhere.. Are you looking for decus-8-466? That might be out there somewhere. AFAIK, the newer stuff is perpetually "in progress", which I take to mean something akin to "vaporware". >From http://ftp.wayne.edu/kermit/extra/k278.bwr: "P?S/8 is copyright Charles Lasner Associates, but is offered free to qualified individuals and institutions." (7 Jan 87) Vince From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Apr 5 18:16:04 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 19:16:04 -0400 Subject: P?S/8 (was 4k/8k PDP-8 OSes) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Apr 2006 11:19:14 PDT." Message-ID: <200604052316.k35NG4ZU004484@mwave.heeltoe.com> Al Kossow wrote: >There is a history of Lasner's P?S/8 up at >http://www.idkcomp.com/p?s.html glug. that came up as raw html on my browser. did I do something wrong? >What I was wondering is if P?S/8 is available anywhere.. I remember rocking dectapes - back and forth, back and forth, as PS/8 was loading :-) Still, it had fortran, which gave it a leg up on TSS/8. -brad From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 5 18:16:23 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 00:16:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Old apple ascii keyboard In-Reply-To: <200604041820.08068.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Apr 4, 6 05:20:08 pm Message-ID: > I remember when I put the BBII together being told, on the subject of > interfacing an ASCII keyboard, that Apple-type keyboards (and clones of > them) would specifically _not_ work because they set the high bit. Dunno if > this hardware you're looking at expects that or if it's even a consideration > at all, but figured it would't hurt to mention it. According to the Apple ][ manual, the keyboard outputs a _7_ bit code (makes sense, ASCII is 7 bits, after all). These are read in as the low 7 bits of an input port. The 8th bit (MSH) is the latched version of the keyboard strobe, and is set if a key has been pressed. The strobe is cleared by referencing another I/O location. Surely if you want to use such a keyboard with a machine that reads 8 data bits from the keyboard, all you have to do is tie the 8th input low. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 5 18:18:32 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 00:18:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: register-impoverished childhoods was Re: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <200604042309.k34N94U8015742@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 4, 6 04:09:04 pm Message-ID: > > > E.g., if you are writing code for a 68xx, you have little choice > > but to do everything in memory addressing. > > Or a 6502. I don't know what to *do* with all the other registers on > other architectures. ^_^;; For the exact opposite, look at the PERQ 1a at the microcode level. 256 general-purpose registers (each 20 bits wide). There's even an 8 bit register which can be used to select a particular register -- that is you have a sort of indirect addressing to the registers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 5 18:47:23 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 00:47:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: <4433D426.9070100@DakotaCom.Net> from "Don Y" at Apr 5, 6 07:28:54 am Message-ID: > Ah, OK. But, IIRC, there is a very subtle difference between > the Zilog parts and the Mostek's. But, I'm sure it was in some There's also a subtle (?) difference between 2 of the Japanese clones of the Z80 (Toshiba and ???). The Epson PX8 (and I think the PX4) has a link that you set one way for a Toshiba CPU and the other way for the other brand. I'll have to check just what that link does. > > No, *that* distinction goes to the bozos at TI with their > non-2732, 2732 (IIRC). So, if you wanted what the rest of > the world called a 2732, you had to order a 2532! (IIRC, 3 > power supplies on their 2732..?) You're thinking of the 2516. TI's 2716 was a 3-rail (+5V, +12V, -5V) part, everybody else's was single rail. TI then made a single-rail 2K EPROM and called it the 2516, it was much the same as everybody else's 2716... AFAIK there never was a 3-rail 4K EPROM (2732-ish). The 2532 had different pinouts fromthe 2732. -tony From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Apr 5 19:31:59 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 01:31:59 +0100 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604031855.OAA15036@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20060403184337.5A40173029@linus.area51.conman.org> <200604031855.OAA15036@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4434617F.1040003@gjcp.net> der Mouse wrote: >>> If there is a non-loopy part which runs into a loop, [...] > >>> Consider A->B->C->D->E->C, started at A. > >> Hmm ... good point. > >> -spc (But who constructs circular lists like that? 8-P > > I have. I'm reminded (massively OT) of a modified version of the Wilson Preselector gearbox, adapted for racing in (IIRC) the 1930s. The Wilson Preselector allowed you to select a gear, and then would change to that gear when you pressed a pedal - not the clutch pedal, but its equivalent. The modified version would, when reset, select first from neutral. On pressing the pedal, it would engage first and then select second, ready for you pressing the pedal again. Then it would engage second and select third, and again from third to fourth. Once the gearbox had fourth engaged, it would select third again, and then back to fourth. So once you'd got moving you'd just press the pedal to change down, and press again to change back up. If you wanted second or first, you just chose it manually. An early (mechanical) example of what we now do with huge amounts of overcomplicated electrickery. Gordon. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Apr 5 22:11:21 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 23:11:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: P?S/8 (was 4k/8k PDP-8 OSes) In-Reply-To: <200604052316.k35NG4ZU004484@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200604052316.k35NG4ZU004484@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200604060313.XAA01721@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> There is a history of Lasner's P?S/8 up at >> http://www.idkcomp.com/p?s.html > glug. that came up as raw html on my browser. did I do something > wrong? No; the server - or perhaps whoever set up that file - did. Look at the HTTP headers on the response; it's being served as text/plain, so it *should* be displayed "raw" - despite the HTML content. Browsers that render it as HTML are *broken*. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 5 22:48:51 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 21:48:51 -0600 Subject: register-impoverished childhoods was Re: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 06 Apr 2006 00:18:32 +0100. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > Or a 6502. I don't know what to *do* with all the other registers on > > other architectures. ^_^;; > > For the exact opposite, look at the PERQ 1a at the microcode level. 256 > general-purpose registers (each 20 bits wide). [...] The AMD 29050 has 192 general-purpose registers each 32-bits wide :-). Trivia: The AMD 29050 was the vertex processor in the Evans & Sutherland Freedom series graphics accelerators for IBM RS/6000, Sun SBus and HP 9000 series workstations. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Apr 6 00:16:18 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 22:16:18 -0700 Subject: Hungarian DEC PDP-11 and VAX Clone Museum site In-Reply-To: <200604011501.k31F1XwM025385@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200604011501.k31F1XwM025385@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4434A422.2040504@mindspring.com> I found this really interesting, a very good site with in depth description of the whole range of Hungarian clones of the DEC PDP11 and VAX machines. Has anybody ever seen one of these, or better yet, has one hidden in their collection somewhere? http://hampage.hu/tpa/e_index.html From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Apr 6 00:32:37 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 00:32:37 -0500 Subject: sticky tapes Message-ID: <17762b6f13724e94a6629dc51b2f519c@valleyimplants.com> I'm working to image some of the CV tapes from the CADDStation before they fade away, and I'm running into a problem with "sticky tapes". They're not losing the coating, they're just sticking to something and catching, requiring dissasembly of the tape cartridge (QIC) before they will run again. One had an extraneous loop when I popped the cover. The two that I have done this with so far imaged fine after I messed with them, but is there a way to fix this to start? I'm not even sure about the etiology. Is the "baking" from the HP tapes thread likely to help? The tapes that have a manufacturer's mark are 3M DC300-XL/P All date from about 1988. From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Apr 5 16:12:48 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 14:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jim Willing? Are you out there? Message-ID: Does anyone know where Jim Willing is these days? I fear the worst. His bowling alley is now closed. Someone wants to license a photo from his website. I figure he can probably use the cash right around now. If anyone knows how to get a hold of him, please contact me directly, or get in touch with him and let him know I want to talk to him. I'm not subscribed so please direct follow-ups directly to me. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From josef.deuschinger at web.de Wed Apr 5 16:19:05 2006 From: josef.deuschinger at web.de (Josef Deuschinger) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 23:19:05 +0200 Subject: Tek 4041 Message-ID: <44343449.3020509@web.de> Hi Roger, I don't know, if you still have your 4041, but I have the solution for your problems. I found some DC-100 tapes, changed an ASCII keyboard, so I could type in the necessary commands and stored them on tape. It works great with a notebook and terminal program. Perhaps we can make a change, because I am looking for the programmers reference and operating manual (e.g as PDF files) as well as for the Utility ROM pack and ROM pack manuals. I would appreciate hearing from you. Best regards, Josef ------------------------------------------------------------- *Roger Goswick* ccfsm at ipa.net /Wed Jul 28 12:34:54 CDT 1999/ Hi All: Does anyone have any information on the Tektronix 4041? I've got a hankering to play with the IEEE-488 bus but can't see paying the current prices that most people seem to want for a IEEE-488 controller for a P.C. I've acquired an Tek 4041 with 512-K and the rom Basic development firmware and even the manuals. But I don't have the (optional) keyboard OR the diagnostics tape. If I could find this tape then I could simple use a RS-232 terminal for program input. I've even got a nice HP 150 that could serve as a terminal, but I need that tape!! Speaking of which, this thing uses a DC100 tape. Know where a soul can find any of these tapes for less that $25.00 each? I know that GP-IB controllers are considered kind of low life - but for some reason I'm hooked on this one (could be the 68008?). Hell, you know what? I'm afraid that old computers are going to be as addicting as old analog synthesizers and Tektronix mainframe o'scopes. Thanks all. Roger Goswick ccfsm at ipa.net From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 5 18:44:09 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 16:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OFFLIST ---------- Re: Replacing 80C188 and 68HC11 In-Reply-To: <200603250950510490.59EA115D@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <20060405234409.54216.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> I can't swear to it, but I think Digi-Key has some versions of the 188/186's still in stock. Good luck. --- Bruce Lane wrote: > Fellow Techies, > > I have a device (a GPS-referenced clock) that uses > an Intel N80C188-16 microprocessor, in a 68-lead > PLCC package. Odd as it may sound, I suspect this > chip of being defective, and I've been attempting to > locate a match for it so I can prove or disprove > that theory. > > The original part is, of course, no longer > manufactured as far as I can tell. Hunting around on > the 'net turned up a couple of modern equivalents, > one of which is an Intel TN80C188EA20. As near as I > can tell, the only difference with this chip is that > it can be clocked a bit faster (20MHz instead of > 16), and that it has an extended operating > temperature range. > > There are two other possible candidates available, > though not in stock at the moment. Both are made by > Intel. One is the N80C188XL20, and the other is the > other is the TN80C188XL20. > > I know just enough about these chips to be wary of > differences in prefix and suffix letters. With that > in mind, I have two questions for the group. > > (1) Of the above replacements I've mentioned, which > one is most likely to be a direct plug-in > replacement for the suspect chip? > > (2) Failing that -- Does anyone happen to have a > known-good N80C188-16 that they could be convinced > to part with? > > In this same instrument is a Motorola > MC68HC11A0FNC11W in a PLCC-52 package. I need to > find a viable replacement for it as well. I've had a > harder time tracking down possible replacements for > it. The only ones I've come across so far, that are > available without an enormous minimum purchase, are > the MC68HC11E0CFN2, the MC68HC11E1CFN2, and the > MC68HC11E1CFN3. > > Once again, I'm very leery of mixing/matching > suffix codes due to lack of knowledge. I do know > this much: The Motorola part is operating with an > external EPROM, so the chip itself is ROMless. > > Assistance with this mess would be much > appreciated. Thanks in advance. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, > Blue Feather Technologies -- > http://www.bluefeathertech.com > kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m > "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it > have been equipped with surreal ports?" > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 6 00:47:41 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 00:47:41 -0500 Subject: OFFLIST ---------- Re: Replacing 80C188 and 68HC11 In-Reply-To: <20060405234409.54216.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060405234409.54216.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4434AB7D.5060807@mdrconsult.com> Chris M wrote: > I can't swear to it, but I think Digi-Key has some > versions of the 188/186's still in stock. Good luck. oops. :) Doc From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Apr 6 01:11:49 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2006 23:11:49 -0700 Subject: sticky tapes In-Reply-To: <17762b6f13724e94a6629dc51b2f519c@valleyimplants.com> References: <17762b6f13724e94a6629dc51b2f519c@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <4434B125.2080805@msm.umr.edu> Scott Quinn wrote: >I'm working to image some of the CV tapes from the CADDStation before they fade away, and I'm >running into a problem with "sticky tapes". They're not losing the coating, they're just sticking to something and >catching, requiring dissasembly of the tape cartridge (QIC) before they will run again. One had an extraneous loop when >I popped the cover. > > I have had problems with the tensioning band or rubberband turning due to rot (from Los Angeles Air). I saw this in only a few years of age. There was a black type of band that 3M used that was composite and not subject to degradation, but would not tolerate much stretching. I'd recommend very careful moving of the capstan in the center of the cartridge and see if there appears to be any adherance between the band and the media first. if there is, then get a stock of expendable cartridges of similar vintage and try swapping the rubberband out between the other one and the one you are backing up. again go make sure there is no sticking thru a full loop of the thing. I doubt that any "baking" would be a good idea without explicit information as to the media, or the other parts of a cartridge. I know of parts of several I have seen that would not tolerate a baking, assuming this to be some sort of heat treatment. Of course any tape will heat up in use, in some closed enclosures for tape drives, but a lot of those units failed for the same reason. Jim From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 6 03:51:26 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 20:51:26 +1200 Subject: Hungarian DEC PDP-11 and VAX Clone Museum site In-Reply-To: <4434A422.2040504@mindspring.com> References: <200604011501.k31F1XwM025385@mwave.heeltoe.com> <4434A422.2040504@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On 4/6/06, Don North wrote: > I found this really interesting, a very good site with in depth > description of the whole range of Hungarian clones of the DEC PDP11 and > VAX machines. Has anybody ever seen one of these, or better yet, has one > hidden in their collection somewhere? > > http://hampage.hu/tpa/e_index.html Nope... I have many models of PDP-8 and PDP-11, but nothing that didn't come from Maynard or perhaps California (couple of PDP-11 OEM enclosures). I've wanted an Elektronika machine (PDP-11) for a while, but never seen one in the States. -ethan From us21090 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 6 05:03:20 2006 From: us21090 at yahoo.com (Scott Austin) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 03:03:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old apple ascii keyboard Message-ID: <20060406100320.66368.qmail@web51109.mail.yahoo.com> Interesting enough I received this from California Digital after a few hours: |In 2004, California |downsized its warehouse from 30,000 square to 3,000 square feet. In the |transition, an enormous amount of inventory was auctioned off or |scraped. Unfortunately, the item you are asking about is not longer |available. | |Suggest you search at Jameco Electronics http://www.jameco.com or JDR Electronics http://www.jdr.com I'll assume he meant California **DIGITAL** downsized.... Scott >don't get too excited about California Digital. He has never bothered to take down his website. He has very little of what is advertised. He sold off everything a few years ago... He does still have Xerox CP/M on 5 14" media and some other items, but call first... >-----Original Message----- >>From: woodelf >>Sent: Apr 4, 2006 5:35 PM >>To: General Discussion at null, On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts , null at null >>Subject: Re: Old apple ascii keyboard >> >>Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> >>> http://www.cadigital.com/inputd.htm >>> >>> Certainly worth a call--I recognize the middle keyboard in the photo and it >>> is indeed ASCII. It's the Hall-effect one and is a very nice unit. --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger?s low PC-to-Phone call rates. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 6 08:50:47 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 07:50:47 -0600 Subject: sticky tapes In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 05 Apr 2006 23:11:49 -0700. <4434B125.2080805@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: In article <4434B125.2080805 at msm.umr.edu>, jim stephens writes: > I have had problems with the tensioning band or rubberband turning due > to rot (from Los Angeles Air). I saw this in only > a few years of age. I have wondered if storing some items in ziploc bags might not be a bad idea. In my case, I am worried about NOS printer ribbons going dry from the lack of humidity here. I think for rubber it might keep it from drying out as fast as well, perhaps it might be a good way to isolate the inner bands of your QIC cartridges from the corrosive LA fumes? > I doubt that any "baking" would be a good idea without explicit > information as to the media, or the other parts > of a cartridge. I know of parts of several I have seen that would not > tolerate a baking, assuming this to be some > sort of heat treatment. Of course any tape will heat up in use, in some > closed enclosures for tape drives, > but a lot of those units failed for the same reason. You can always take a sacrificial tape and bake it (a little hotter than you'd expect you'd need on a data tape) to see how well it fares. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From vrs at msn.com Thu Apr 6 10:15:00 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 08:15:00 -0700 Subject: Jim Willing? Are you out there? References: Message-ID: > Does anyone know where Jim Willing is these days? I fear the worst. His > bowling alley is now closed. It's not unheard of for him to close the alley in the winter. (Hopefully it's just that, rather than something more permanent.) > Someone wants to license a photo from his website. I figure he can > probably use the cash right around now. > > If anyone knows how to get a hold of him, please contact me directly, or > get in touch with him and let him know I want to talk to him. I can forward your message to the email address that I have for him, but it's been over a year since I used it, so who knows if that will help. Vince From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Apr 6 10:14:57 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 10:14:57 -0500 Subject: BASIC-80 manual online anywhere? Message-ID: <44353071.7030105@pacbell.net> I have an original copy of Microsoft BASIC-80 (c) 1979, Release 5.1. It is for Heath/Zenith systems, but really that part of it is just an insert at the start of the manual. The rest of the manual is generic and applicable to all BASIC-80 versions. Before spending the time to scan it, is this online anywhere already? I did a google search on BASIC-80 manual but didn't find any hits in the first few pages. Likewise, I have an original manual for a similar vintage MS BASCOM (basic compiler). Thanks. From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Apr 6 10:58:21 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 10:58:21 -0500 Subject: Help with Building First Mouse Message-ID: <002801c65992$ef96e9e0$2c406b43@66067007> I would like to build a replica of the first mouse (by Douglas Engelbart) for display use only and wanted to know if anyone knew what the exact measurements of the wooden block were? Or does anyone know were I could get that info. I found lots of pictures doing a google search. Thanks From allain at panix.com Thu Apr 6 11:10:39 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 12:10:39 -0400 Subject: sticky tapes References: Message-ID: <014401c65994$a62f7e00$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > You can always take a sacrificial tape and bake it (a little hotter > than you'd expect you'd need on a data tape) to see how well it fares. Something about baking. Beware of raidiative heat. An oven heating up can possibly generate *large* temperatures in objects absorbing the energy in a direct light path from the coils. If you want a certain low temperature, heat the oven up first, then turn it off and leave it off while the item is in it. Possible you can avoid direct radiation burns by putting the item in a container, something not tried by me at least. May sound bizarre, but bottomline this as: "Warning, an oven set for 180 deg. can melt plastic when turned on." John A. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Apr 6 11:51:48 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 09:51:48 -0700 Subject: sticky tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44354724.1020003@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: >In article <4434B125.2080805 at msm.umr.edu>, > jim stephens writes: > > > >>I have had problems with the tensioning band or rubberband turning due >>to rot (from Los Angeles Air). I saw this in only >>a few years of age. >> >> > >I have wondered if storing some items in ziploc bags might not be a >bad idea. In my case, I am worried about NOS printer ribbons going >dry from the lack of humidity here. > >I think for rubber it might keep it from drying out as fast as well, >perhaps it might be a good way to isolate the inner bands of your QIC >cartridges from the corrosive LA fumes? > > > I recently bought a sealed (MIL spec, as they were surplus) lead set, at the TRW swap meet. The date code showed that it was sealed in 1982, or 24 years ago. The two rubber bands, were still in "as new" condition with whatever they sealed it with. Two observations on using baggies, such as ziploc. the seal isnt so good for gases, it is for liquids, and moderately okay for gas, but not for what you are talking about. The plastic on the ones that are not "freezer" grade would be damaged and loose seal integrity unless packed in something to protect it. Also I have seen better. There are catalogs for stockroom supplies that have resuable bags that would probably be a better choice for long term storage. I suspect, but could not prove that the lead set mentioned above probably was sealed in a purged nitrogen atmosphere. It had a metalized looking type paper material that I had to cut open (would not tear) so was probably a specialized material for such sealing. Mil spec sealing pretty much means you can run it thru the jungle, put it in the engine compartment, spray it with hydraulic fluid, rinse it off, and open it and have a good component in the end, so is far and above what you would find from commerical products, which only have to maintain integrity for maybe a year, and is mostly to be sure you don't have to do recounts, not protect the stuff from water, etc while on the shelf. >> Of course any tape will heat up in use, in some >>closed enclosures for tape drives, >>but a lot of those units failed for the same reason. >> >> > >You can always take a sacrificial tape and bake it (a little hotter >than you'd expect you'd need on a data tape) to see how well it fares. > > The testing would definitely be indicated, but beware that the tapes you test are of the same material. The most important beside the media would be the rubberband, the rollers, and the lubricant that is used. there are seldom (only saw one time) any bearings, so the plastic on a post lube job is meant to last a lifetime, and heating outside commercial temp ranges probably risk sweating out the lube and shortening the lifetime of the cartridge to 0 as well. From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Apr 6 11:59:59 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 11:59:59 -0500 Subject: Fw: Help with Building First Mouse Message-ID: <004d01c6599b$8b57fc40$2c406b43@66067007> First message got lost? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keys" To: "cctalk at classiccmp" Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 10:58 AM Subject: Help with Building First Mouse >I would like to build a replica of the first mouse (by Douglas Engelbart) >for display use only and wanted to know if anyone knew what the exact >measurements of the wooden block were? Or does anyone know were I could >get that info. I found lots of pictures doing a google search. Thanks From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 6 12:12:16 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 18:12:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <4434617F.1040003@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Apr 6, 6 01:31:59 am Message-ID: [Modified Wilson Gearbox description snipped -- incidentally, I have some repair information for the standard version on the bookshelf...] > An early (mechanical) example of what we now do with huge amounts of > overcomplicated electrickery. Yes, back when engineers actually thought about things and didn't attempt to 'solve' problems by throwing computing power at them. -tony From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Apr 6 13:04:04 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 13:04:04 -0500 Subject: BASIC-80 manual online anywhere? In-Reply-To: <44353071.7030105@pacbell.net> References: <44353071.7030105@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <44355814.9080508@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > I have an original copy of Microsoft BASIC-80 (c) 1979, Release 5.1. It > is for Heath/Zenith systems, but really that part of it is just an > insert at the start of the manual. The rest of the manual is generic > and applicable to all BASIC-80 versions. > > Before spending the time to scan it, is this online anywhere already? I > did a google search on > > BASIC-80 manual > > but didn't find any hits in the first few pages. > > Likewise, I have an original manual for a similar vintage MS BASCOM > (basic compiler). > > Thanks. I have had a few responses -- the manual is online already. Rich Cini has it on his web site, listed as AltairBASIC_1275: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/Altair32links.htm It is also available in his Altair32 emulator bundle. Fritz Chwolka points out that there is probably at least one version of it at the www.trs80.com web site. There are a ton of manuals there. He also has it mirrored here: http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/tandy/docs_from_www.trs-80.com/manuals/software/ I guess I don't need to scan my copy. Thank to everyone who replied privately. From paulrsm at buckeye-express.com Thu Apr 6 14:39:18 2006 From: paulrsm at buckeye-express.com (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 15:39:18 -0400 Subject: BASIC-80 manual online anywhere? Message-ID: <380-22006446193918125@buckeye-express.com> I know of two versions on the web: http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/lang/lang.htm has MBASREF.ZIP http://apple2info.net/hardware/softcard/softcard.htm has SC-MBAS_a2in.pdf Scanned and available on the csa2 gmail account: PSC2EBAS.PDF 5MB MBASIC manual for Premium Softcard IIe, 245 pages, 1983 SC-MBAS.PDF 4MB MS SoftCard BASIC Reference Manual I have also scanned the Apple III CP/M manuals, but I do not remember if I had the BASIC manual. -- Paul R. Santa-Maria Monroe, Michigan USA From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Apr 6 15:47:48 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 15:47:48 -0500 Subject: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported In-Reply-To: References: <20060405163609.CC380580A2@mail.wordstock.com> <4433F50A.6050507@msm.umr.edu> <4433F6E0.8020407@mdrconsult.com> <200604051940.PAA28724@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44357E74.8010207@oldskool.org> Robert Borsuk wrote: > I'm sorry to bring this up (I know I'm being a stick in the mud) but can > we take this topic off the list. I'm a big mac user (in fact I'm > typing this on my powerbook) but I like this list for the classic not > the modern. Then resubscribe to cctech instead of cctalk. I find this very on-topic, since the mac was the last of the non-ibm/intel architecture personal computer left standing... and now it too has fallen to wintel. Actually, this is more like Apple losing the battle but winning the war by joining the enemy and bearing his children, eventually leading toward a day where all home computing platforms will be equal parts wintel and apple. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 6 15:51:40 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 13:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported In-Reply-To: <44357E74.8010207@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Apr 6, 6 03:47:48 pm" Message-ID: <200604062051.k36Kpews014196@floodgap.com> > Actually, this is more like Apple losing the battle but winning the war > by joining the enemy and bearing his children, eventually leading toward > a day where all home computing platforms will be equal parts wintel and > apple. Then consider this: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/04/06/parallels_offers_mac_vt_beta/ Never bind the Bollocks^WBoot Camp, here's the end of Virtual PC. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Let us live! Let us love! Let us share our darkest secrets! ... you first. - From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Apr 6 15:52:16 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 15:52:16 -0500 Subject: Ultima Underworld In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C2005A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <4430991D.3090905@yahoo.co.uk> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C2005A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <44357F80.50801@oldskool.org> Gooijen, Henk wrote: > - Dynamics A10 That would be A-10 Tank Killer by Dynamix. > I don't know how well they would read ... If they weren't exposed to heat above 90 degrees F. they should be fine. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 6 15:52:31 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 15:52:31 -0500 Subject: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported References: <20060405163609.CC380580A2@mail.wordstock.com> <4433F50A.6050507@msm.umr.edu><4433F6E0.8020407@mdrconsult.com> <200604051940.PAA28724@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44357E74.8010207@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <005c01c659bc$067cbe40$6800a8c0@BILLING> > Robert Borsuk wrote: >> I'm sorry to bring this up (I know I'm being a stick in the mud) but can >> we take this topic off the list. To which Jim replied: > Then resubscribe to cctech instead of cctalk. I find this very on-topic, Nah, gotta disagree jim. This is talk of current apples, and certainly isn't on topic at this point. I think the initial notice of "hey this happened" is fine, but we don't need a continuing thread on it. Jay West From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Apr 6 15:58:47 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 16:58:47 -0400 Subject: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported In-Reply-To: <44357E74.8010207@oldskool.org> References: <20060405163609.CC380580A2@mail.wordstock.com> <4433F50A.6050507@msm.umr.edu> <4433F6E0.8020407@mdrconsult.com> <200604051940.PAA28724@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44357E74.8010207@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <9C30FF83-2C2C-4745-A14A-0ADB9A05B1DB@colourfull.com> I got a better idea. You could join up to some of the Mac list to discuss this. I was being polite but I don't take your comments as polite. Rob On Apr 6, 2006, at 4:47 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > Robert Borsuk wrote: >> I'm sorry to bring this up (I know I'm being a stick in the mud) >> but can we take this topic off the list. I'm a big mac user (in >> fact I'm typing this on my powerbook) but I like this list for the >> classic not the modern. > > Then resubscribe to cctech instead of cctalk. I find this very on- > topic, since the mac was the last of the non-ibm/intel architecture > personal computer left standing... and now it too has fallen to > wintel. > > Actually, this is more like Apple losing the battle but winning the > war by joining the enemy and bearing his children, eventually > leading toward a day where all home computing platforms will be > equal parts wintel and apple. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu Apr 6 16:01:57 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 23:01:57 +0200 Subject: Ultima Underworld References: <4430991D.3090905@yahoo.co.uk><447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C2005A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <44357F80.50801@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20074@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Vague memory says that you're probably correct, Jim. I was never very much into gaming, I more enjoyed writing assembler. Though I played all levels of (the commercial version) of Wolfenstein and Doom II. - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Jim Leonard Verzonden: do 06-04-2006 22:52 Aan: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Ultima Underworld Gooijen, Henk wrote: > - Dynamics A10 That would be A-10 Tank Killer by Dynamix. > I don't know how well they would read ... If they weren't exposed to heat above 90 degrees F. they should be fine. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 6 16:09:53 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 15:09:53 -0600 Subject: Ultima Underworld In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 06 Apr 2006 15:52:16 -0500. <44357F80.50801@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In article <44357F80.50801 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard writes: > If they weren't exposed to heat above 90 degrees F. they should be fine. In other words, don't pack your old MS-DOS games into the attic! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Apr 6 16:09:19 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 17:09:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Intel Mac dual booting now officially supported In-Reply-To: <005c01c659bc$067cbe40$6800a8c0@BILLING> References: <20060405163609.CC380580A2@mail.wordstock.com> <4433F50A.6050507@msm.umr.edu><4433F6E0.8020407@mdrconsult.com> <200604051940.PAA28724@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44357E74.8010207@oldskool.org> <005c01c659bc$067cbe40$6800a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200604062113.RAA20449@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> I'm sorry to bring this up (I know I'm being a stick in the mud) >>> but can we take this topic off the list. >> I find this very on-topic, > Nah, gotta disagree jim. This is talk of current apples, and > certainly isn't on topic at this point. As the person whose post was, apparently, the straw that pushed people into speaking up...I didn't intend to be talking about Apples, current or not, so mcuh as about construction quality (which is timeless), pointing out that proper construction (versus lack thereof) can make two machines with matching paper specs be worth wildly differing amounts. Macs came into it only as the case at hand. Or at least that was how I saw it. I obviously didn't make that clear enough, or the issue this blew up into wouldn't've arisen. My apologies. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 6 16:28:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 14:28:34 -0700 Subject: Ultima Underworld In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604061428340234.395E7028@10.0.0.252> On 4/6/2006 at 3:09 PM Richard wrote: >In other words, don't pack your old MS-DOS games into the attic! ...or your vintage computers either. A few years ago, one of our customers pulled his old Zorba out of the attic, powered it up and flushed a nest of Brown Recluse spiders that had made the old iron their home. He was bitten several times... Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Apr 6 16:36:04 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 17:36:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ultima Underworld In-Reply-To: <200604061428340234.395E7028@10.0.0.252> References: <200604061428340234.395E7028@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200604062137.RAA20724@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> In other words, don't pack your old MS-DOS games into the attic! > ...or your vintage computers either. A few years ago, one of our > customers pulled his old Zorba out of the attic, powered it up and > flushed a nest of Brown Recluse spiders that had made the old iron > their home. He was bitten several times... *shudder* Did he survive? I've certainly heard that the brown recluse is one of the more deadly spiders going.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 6 16:37:34 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 15:37:34 -0600 Subject: VT278/decmate docs? Message-ID: I don't find docs for this on bitsavers... I know its basically a PDP-8 inside a VT-100 cabinet. I just acquired one off ebay (sorry if you lost out to me :-) and now I'm on a hunt for accessories. I tried searching the list archives, but I didn't find anything. (Is the search form busted? I can't seem to get any results for anything.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From Useddec at aol.com Thu Apr 6 16:56:56 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 17:56:56 EDT Subject: VT278/decmate docs? Message-ID: <318.1f66a7d.3166e8a8@aol.com> I have one and some extras of some of the options. Are you looking for hardware or software docs? Paul From vrs at msn.com Thu Apr 6 16:58:22 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 14:58:22 -0700 Subject: VT278/decmate docs? References: Message-ID: From: "Richard" > I don't find docs for this on bitsavers... I know its basically a > PDP-8 inside a VT-100 cabinet. I just acquired one off ebay (sorry > if you lost out to me :-) and now I'm on a hunt for accessories. Are you looking for http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/cmos8/MP00900_VT278_may81.pdf? Vince From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Apr 6 17:06:28 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 18:06:28 -0400 Subject: sticky tapes In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 06 Apr 2006 12:10:39 EDT." <014401c65994$a62f7e00$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200604062206.k36M6SZ9023712@mwave.heeltoe.com> "John Allain" wrote: >> You can always take a sacrificial tape and bake it (a little hotter >> than you'd expect you'd need on a data tape) to see how well it fares. > >Something about baking. Beware of raidiative heat. > >An oven heating up can possibly generate *large* temperatures in objects >absorbing the energy in a direct light path from the coils. If you want a Ugg. I would *never* use a kitchen oven for baking tapes under any circumstances. It's just too uncontrolled. You get wild fluxuations of temperature. You really don't want to get much over 140F unless you want the plastic to start to deform. I'd stay right around 130F. Also, you want very low humidity. Very low. -brad From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 6 17:14:49 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 16:14:49 -0600 Subject: VT278/decmate docs? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 06 Apr 2006 14:58:22 -0700. <014701c659c5$39790660$6700a8c0@vrs> Message-ID: In article <014701c659c5$39790660$6700a8c0 at vrs>, "vrs" writes: > Are you looking for > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/cmos8/MP00900_VT278_may81.pdf? Thanks. Hrm. I swore I searched the index.txt for 278 and came up with nothing. Now I search it again and find it. I certainly didn't think to look in the "cmos8" folder of pdp8. The index says that these are maintenance drawings. I'm after user docs. Also -- these guys had 8" floppies attached to them. Were they anything special or just the standard RX01/RX02 type drives? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 6 17:16:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 16:16:43 -0600 Subject: VT278/decmate docs? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 06 Apr 2006 17:56:56 -0400. <318.1f66a7d.3166e8a8@aol.com> Message-ID: In article <318.1f66a7d.3166e8a8 at aol.com>, Useddec at aol.com writes: > I have one and some extras of some of the options. Are you looking for > hardware or software docs? Both, so yes :-). The maintenance diagrams are on bitsavers for the VT-278 and the VT-78. There is also a VT-78 Programmer's Reference Manual. Would this be nearly identical to the corresponding manual for the 278? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 6 17:18:22 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 16:18:22 -0600 Subject: sticky tapes In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 06 Apr 2006 18:06:28 -0400. <200604062206.k36M6SZ9023712@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: In article <200604062206.k36M6SZ9023712 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, Brad Parker writes: > Ugg. I would *never* use a kitchen oven for baking tapes under any > circumstances. It's just too uncontrolled. You get wild fluxuations of > temperature. It might be helpful to follow the method used by the guys who were soldering surface mount chips in a toaster oven. They had temperature profiles they measured from their setup and it seemed pretty consistent and repeatable. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Apr 6 18:43:58 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 23:43:58 -0000 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604051305370263.33EC1F91@10.0.0.252> References: <20060405183417.D29E973029@linus.area51.conman.org> <4434146A.5070109@DakotaCom.Net> <200604051305370263.33EC1F91@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4255D22D.2010504@compsys.to> >Chuck Guzis wrote: >>On 4/5/2006 at 12:03 PM Don Y wrote: >>But yes, I do miss having access to the carry bit, but the level of code > >>I'm writing nowadays has made that less of an issue. > > Some machine don't have a carry bit, so there's nothing to access. > >IMOHO, the biggest problem with HLL's versus assembly is when an >architecture provides for a very useful instruction, but said instruction >doesn't exactly fit into the language. For example, the MMX instrtuctions >on the Pentium aren't terribly accessible from most Cs. So they're >implemented as intrinsics at best--and at that point, you might as well be >writing assembly. > >On the other hand, HLLs are very useful for automatically selecting >instructions and optimizing them. I don't know what real-world gains are >made by realing the gain from the fact that LOOP is slower on a 486 than a >DEC CX, JNZ pair, but it's nice not to have to code for it. On the other >hand, few C compilers can generate parallel versions of the same subroutine >and say "If I'm running on machne that supports feature>, I'll just use the other version. I've got lots of x86 assembly >code that does just that when its determined that MMX is present or 386+ >(32 bit registers) is available. The speed improvements in some cases can >be substantial. > >One pleasure of a good optimizer is clever removal of invariants from the >inside of a loop. It allows one to write what one means without worrying >that the implementation is inefficient. > >Does anyone know of any optimizing assemblers ? That is, ones that will >move instructions around for optimum scheduling? > >Cheers, >Chuck > Jerome Fine replies: About 20 years ago, I wrote some code in C which used a much less than optimal algorithm to locate prime numbers. To make a long story as short as possible, the inner loop made use of code which looked like (I can't remember exactly): unsigned integer i, itemp, k, l NULL INTEGER N ... itemp = l(i) if k .lt. l(i++) then gosub abc else if k .ne. itemp / ELSE IF N gosub def else gosub ghi end if Obviously, when I make the first test, the carry bit is being tested ( Bhis / Bcc ) and a branch made around the subroutine call. This would be in a system where the hardware actually has a carry bit available as well as auto-increment for the compare instruction. However, an extremely clever compiler would also be able to realize that the second test requires ONLY one additional instruction in the form of a Bne around the second subroutine call. What I could never understand was why a null variable was not allowed which assumed that the arithmetic instruction had already taken place and the only requirement was to test the condition code in the required manner. This capability would, in hardware that produced the correct condition codes, allow repeated tests such as for the example above WHERE THE CODE IN CAPITAL LETTERS IS USED INSTEAD. For the actual example, when I wanted to produce a production version, I only needed to edit the assembler version of the code and remove extra instructions which were not needed. In real examples where a sufficiently intelligent compilier is not available, is that is the best way to optomize the code? I would appreciate a comment what attempts to provide an answer to this specific question. As for the use of the mmx instructions, I thought that they allow for the use of 64 bit registers. Doesn't that correspond to: long long integer ivalue As for an assembler that moves instructions around, I have only just looked at the instruction set for the Pentium with a view to using some of the features to speed up the E11 emulator for some PDP-11 routines - UDiv32 and UMul32 are ones that are first candidates. Later I will likely attempt multi-precision arithmetic. by the way, do mmx instructions allow 64 bit integers? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Apr 6 18:39:52 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 18:39:52 -0500 Subject: Did the Technology Rewind Come Out? Message-ID: <003201c659d3$68a2a960$1f406b43@66067007> Did I miss it for this week? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 6 18:42:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 16:42:33 -0700 Subject: Ultima Underworld In-Reply-To: <200604062137.RAA20724@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200604061428340234.395E7028@10.0.0.252> <200604062137.RAA20724@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200604061642330198.39D9190C@10.0.0.252> On 4/6/2006 at 5:36 PM der Mouse wrote: >*shudder* Did he survive? I've certainly heard that the brown recluse >is one of the more deadly spiders going.... Yes, with a lot of scarring. One of the more grisly aspects of BR spider bites is extensive tissue necrosis. Cheers? Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Apr 6 17:49:06 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 18:49:06 -0400 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604051305370263.33EC1F91@10.0.0.252> References: <20060405183417.D29E973029@linus.area51.conman.org> <4434146A.5070109@DakotaCom.Net> <200604051305370263.33EC1F91@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44359AE2.6010203@compsys.to> >Chuck Guzis wrote: >>On 4/5/2006 at 12:03 PM Don Y wrote: >>But yes, I do miss having access to the carry bit, but the level of code >>I'm writing nowadays has made that less of an issue. > >Some machine don't have a carry bit, so there's nothing to access. > >IMOHO, the biggest problem with HLL's versus assembly is when an >architecture provides for a very useful instruction, but said instruction >doesn't exactly fit into the language. For example, the MMX instrtuctions >on the Pentium aren't terribly accessible from most Cs. So they're >implemented as intrinsics at best--and at that point, you might as well be >writing assembly. > >On the other hand, HLLs are very useful for automatically selecting >instructions and optimizing them. I don't know what real-world gains are >made by realing the gain from the fact that LOOP is slower on a 486 than a >DEC CX, JNZ pair, but it's nice not to have to code for it. On the other >hand, few C compilers can generate parallel versions of the same subroutine >and say "If I'm running on machne that supports feature>, I'll just use the other version. I've got lots of x86 assembly >code that does just that when its determined that MMX is present or 386+ >(32 bit registers) is available. The speed improvements in some cases can >be substantial. > >One pleasure of a good optimizer is clever removal of invariants from the >inside of a loop. It allows one to write what one means without worrying >that the implementation is inefficient. > >Does anyone know of any optimizing assemblers ? That is, ones that will >move instructions around for optimum scheduling? > >Cheers, >Chuck > Jerome Fine replies: About 20 years ago, I wrote some code in C which used a much less than optimal algorithm to locate prime numbers. To make a long story as short as possible, the inner loop made use of code which looked like (I can't remember exactly): unsigned integer i, itemp, k, l NULL INTEGER N ... itemp = l(i) if k .lt. l(i++) then gosub abc else if k .ne. itemp / ELSE IF N gosub def else gosub ghi end if Obviously, when I make the first test, the carry bit is being tested ( Bhis / Bcc ) and a branch made around the subroutine call. This would be in a system where the hardware actually has a carry bit available as well as auto-increment for the compare instruction. However, an extremely clever compiler would also be able to realize that the second test requires ONLY one additional instruction in the form of a Beq around the second subroutine call. What I could never understand was why a null variable was not allowed which assumed that the arithmetic instruction had already taken place and the only requirement was to test the condition code in the required manner. This capability would, in hardware that produced the correct condition codes, allow repeated tests such as for the example above WHERE THE CODE IN CAPITAL LETTERS IS USED INSTEAD. For the actual example, when I wanted to produce a production version, I only needed to edit the assembler version of the code and remove extra instructions which were not needed. In real examples where a sufficiently intelligent compilier is not available, is that is the best way to optomize the code? I would appreciate a comment what attempts to provide an answer to this specific question. As for the use of the mmx instructions, I thought that they allow for the use of 64 bit registers. Doesn't that correspond to: long long integer ivalue As for an assembler that moves instructions around, I have only just looked at the instruction set for the Pentium with a view to using some of the features to speed up the E11 emulator for some PDP-11 routines - UDiv32 and UMul32 are ones that are first candidates. Later I will likely attempt multi-precision arithmetic. by the way, do mmx instructions allow 64 bit integers? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 6 19:15:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 17:15:54 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <44359AE2.6010203@compsys.to> References: <20060405183417.D29E973029@linus.area51.conman.org> <4434146A.5070109@DakotaCom.Net> <200604051305370263.33EC1F91@10.0.0.252> <44359AE2.6010203@compsys.to> Message-ID: <200604061715540826.39F7A385@10.0.0.252> On 4/6/2006 at 6:49 PM Jerome H. Fine wrote: >As for the use of the mmx instructions, I thought >that they allow for the use of 64 bit registers. >Doesn't that correspond to: > >long long integer ivalue Yes, but not quite--you can pack those 64 bits several ways, with bytes, 16-bit words, 32-bit words or 64 bit words. Although limited to integer applications, MMX does have some interesting non-graphics applications, offering substantial performance improvements over the native x86 instruction set. In particular, the application to modular arithmetic and the optional "clipping" aspect of the arithmetics--and the SIMD nature of the instructions look interesting. Here's a good overview: http://www.tommesani.com/MMXPrimer.html I'm not sure when MMX entered the world, so this may not qualify as "Vintage". Cheers, Chuck From rcini at optonline.net Thu Apr 6 21:02:56 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 22:02:56 -0400 Subject: Altair front panel measurements Message-ID: <004201c659e7$634b3b30$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I'm putting the finishing touches on my replica Altair 8800 front panel and I need to find out how much the LEDs stick out from the front of the metal dress panel. Would someone be kind enough to measure this for me? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Apr 6 21:22:20 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 21:22:20 -0500 Subject: Sticky tapes Message-ID: It's not what I thought it was- looks like the tape "emulsion" is fine. The looping only seems to happen when the tape gets to the end and is ready to rewind. Listening to the tape, it sounds almost like there's some slack or slippage, but the cartridge seems tight when I look at it (take it apart, poke and prod, etc. The tapes that I'm having problems with (both trapped loops binding the tape and plain read errors) are noticeably noisier than trouble-free cartridges. I'm now wondering about streched band or lubrication issues (they have a much duller surface than newer DC600/DC6150s). From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 6 21:45:12 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 19:45:12 -0700 Subject: Altair front panel measurements In-Reply-To: <004201c659e7$634b3b30$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <004201c659e7$634b3b30$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <200604061945120013.3A804EC8@10.0.0.252> On 4/6/2006 at 10:02 PM Richard A. Cini wrote: > I'm putting the finishing touches on my replica Altair 8800 >front panel and I need to find out how much the LEDs stick out from the >front of the metal dress panel. Would someone be kind enough to measure >this for me? Thanks. Assuming that I built my kit right lo these many years ago, 3/16" is the distance from the face of the panel to the tip of the LED "dome". Actually, a spot check on about 5 of them on mine vary between 0.183 and 0.190, but the above figure should be accurate enough. Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Thu Apr 6 22:27:13 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 23:27:13 -0400 Subject: Did the Technology Rewind Come Out? In-Reply-To: <003201c659d3$68a2a960$1f406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <000f01c659f3$2a7d0840$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> You didn't miss anything. I am taking a break for a few weeks and revamping the site and the format. -----Original Message----- From: Keys [mailto:jrkeys at concentric.net] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 7:40 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp Subject: Did the Technology Rewind Come Out? Did I miss it for this week? From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 6 22:41:11 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 20:41:11 -0700 Subject: Sticky tapes Message-ID: <744D8E6F-D807-4B7E-B8C3-12A8C5160642@bitsavers.org> > I'm now wondering about streched band That is EXACTLY your problem. The tensioning belt isn't tight enough any more and as the tape rolls it goes slack. When it stops at EOT, it folds over itself, and often creases the tape, creating a bad spot that you hit on every pass. I have had to replace 100+ belts as I've been reading all of my tapes. Pretty much any tape from the mid-80's earlier will have a bad belt. Sometimes they're so bad they snap on the initial retension (you do know you have to retension the tape before you try reading it, don't you?) Scotch DC450+ carts from the early 90's have been my primary source of donor belts. The bad news is the piles of surplus carts that were all over Silicon Valley in the late 90's are pretty much all gone now.. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Apr 6 22:42:39 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 20:42:39 -0700 Subject: AViiON 3000 Message-ID: <4435DFAF.3050302@DakotaCom.Net> Hi, I've inherited a 3700 so my 3000 is now looking for a use :-/ I expect to get DG/UX running on the 3700 (when I have some spare time to deal with those issues). It would seem wasteful to also install that on the 3000. I figure I can fill the 3000 with drives and glue other peripherals onto it and turn it into a "media machine" (i.e. support many different types of tape, disk, etc.) and file server. Choice of OS to install on it becomes an issue. It's a quad Pentium box so ideally something that supports SMP. I would *like* to find something that can support blocksizes != 512 (for my MO drives). I'd also like to find an OS that would let me treat the multiple drives as a single *big* drive (e.g., DG/UX supports virtual drives that can span multiple physical drives) so I can set up a nice /distfiles filesystem. The box will run headless. Suggestions? --don From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Apr 6 23:05:25 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 21:05:25 -0700 Subject: Sticky tapes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Scott As was mentioned earlier, although it seem strange, the takeup requires some tension on the feed reel to keep things running properly. Even when rewinding, there needs to be some tension or the system doesn't work. This is just the opposite of whqt one would think. oiling to make it rotate easier would make it worse not better. Dwight >From: "Scott Quinn" > > > > It's not what I thought it was- looks like the tape "emulsion" is fine. >The looping only seems to happen >when the tape gets to the end and is ready to rewind. Listening to the >tape, it sounds almost like there's some slack >or slippage, but the cartridge seems tight when I look at it (take it >apart, poke and prod, etc. The tapes that I'm having >problems with (both trapped loops binding the tape and plain read errors) >are noticeably noisier than trouble-free >cartridges. I'm now wondering about streched band or lubrication issues >(they have a much duller surface >than newer DC600/DC6150s). > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 7 00:03:22 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 17:03:22 +1200 Subject: VT278/decmate docs? In-Reply-To: References: <014701c659c5$39790660$6700a8c0@vrs> Message-ID: On 4/7/06, Richard wrote: > Also -- these guys had 8" floppies attached to them. Were they > anything special or just the standard RX01/RX02 type drives? Just standard RX02 guts, but mounted in a pedestal as opposed to the more common rack-mount side-by-side arrangement. The controller-end of the pedestal RX02s is the normal-for-later-RX02-drives DB25 arrangement like the one used with the MINC-11 (with the same DB25-to-40-pin-Berg transition board stuck under the fake woodgrain countertop at the top of the pedestal). The RX278 controller cable is a DC37 to either one DB25 or a wye-cable to two DB25s (there's room in the pedestal for two complete RX02 units). If you really had to, I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to take a BC08 and run it from the RX02 board in the pedestal out to, say, an RXV11 or RX8E, but I think in practice it's not too hard to wire up a DB25-to-Berg-40 transition board if you can't find an original one. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 7 08:00:30 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 07:00:30 -0600 Subject: Sticky tapes In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 06 Apr 2006 20:41:11 -0700. <744D8E6F-D807-4B7E-B8C3-12A8C5160642@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <744D8E6F-D807-4B7E-B8C3-12A8C5160642 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > [...] (you do know you have to retension the tape before > you try reading it, don't you?) These are QIC tapes you're talking about right? I forget how you're supposed to retension them. Care to enlighten me? I've got a grundle of these with my ESV and they are probably 10-15 years old now. Should I start worrying about anything important yet? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 7 08:42:35 2006 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 13:42:35 +0000 Subject: Sorting large box of 72 pin SIMMs - looking for chip ID guide In-Reply-To: <4364.86.139.105.174.1142861783.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <4364.86.139.105.174.1142861783.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <575131af0604070642q7fd5fc7cyb33e7f155f9d802e@mail.gmail.com> On 3/20/06, Lee Davison wrote: > > Unfortunately, two evenings of googlings has only found me > > consumer-level guides to help clueless PC owners tell SIMMs > > from DIMMs - nothing at the chip level. > > Strange, my first google hit gets this .. > > http://www.chipmunk.nl/DRAM/ChipManufacturers.htm I have long thought it would be a really immensely useful thing to have a page where you could just type in the numbers from a chip & have the page parse them & tell you the size, speed & type of the chip - or if told how many chips, the total capacity. Not a great money earner for anyone but probably a great way to get good karma! -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 7 10:08:08 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 10:08:08 Subject: Longshot: Symbol PDT 1510A as a terminal In-Reply-To: <1143916050.16400.50.camel@fortran.babel> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060407100808.47e716dc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:27 PM 4/1/06 +0200, you wrote: >On Wed, 2006-01-25 at 14:44 -0700, Richard wrote: >> In article <012301c621e6$e71efc00$5f25fea9 at ibm23xhr06>, >> "John Allain" writes: >> >> > I recently obtained a Symbol Technologies 1510A made as a dedicated >> > laser scanner, that is, eprom'ed to do a specific task. [...] >> >> Is this a handheld unit? I am unfamiliar with this device. Do you >> have a picture or link to a page on it? > >My Symbol machines are all ruggedized versions of standard-ish small >machines from the day - sometimes with extras. Mine has some WLAN card >and a barcode scanner. > FWIW NASA surpluses tons of the Symbol bar code readers at auction at KSC. Recently they've started listing them as Export-Controlled items. Anybody have any idea why? Joe From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 7 10:08:57 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 10:08:57 -0500 Subject: Longshot: Symbol PDT 1510A as a terminal In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060407100808.47e716dc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060407100808.47e716dc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060407100748.04a6b720@mail> At 05:08 AM 4/7/2006, Joe R. wrote: > FWIW NASA surpluses tons of the Symbol bar code readers at auction at >KSC. Recently they've started listing them as Export-Controlled items. >Anybody have any idea why? Probably the little laser inside. Terrorists are known for installing them on their desktop computers, then pointing the laser at non-terrorists nearby. - John From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Fri Apr 7 10:54:02 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 08:54:02 -0700 Subject: Help ID oddball SCSI controller Message-ID: <44368B1A.9020901@DakotaCom.Net> Hi, I've got an oddball SCSI controller card that I would like help identifying (actually, I have several *different* ones but we'll start with this one :> ) Card is full length. PCI. Appears to be made by IBM (FRU 76H6875). Has three AIC-7880's on it connected to three "internal" wide SCSI-2 connectors -- and a single external connector presumably tied to one of these three busses. Onboard PowerPC and what appears to be a connector for a flying CF card. A pair of 10 pin headers one of which has a "SERIAL" legend nearby. A third header labeled JTAG (no doubt for manufacturing diagnostics). External connector appears to be LVD or SE (bummer, I was hoping to find a HVD in this box of goodies...) I'll assume it's a RAID controller. But, question is how well (if at all!) it is supported and whether it is worth my time or if I should just toss it in the box and dig out the next "mystery card"? Thanks! --don From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Fri Apr 7 11:13:54 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 09:13:54 -0700 Subject: Convert D1000 to LVD? Message-ID: <44368FC2.4020605@DakotaCom.Net> Hi, I have a D1000 array and wonder if there is any way to convert it to a LVD interface? (I have lots of LVD *PC* controllers but only one HVD and that's SBUS). Thanks! --don From bdwheele at indiana.edu Fri Apr 7 11:20:59 2006 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 12:20:59 -0400 Subject: Help ID oddball SCSI controller In-Reply-To: <44368B1A.9020901@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44368B1A.9020901@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <1144426859.31803.13.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> Did you google the fru? The first hit reveals that its an IBM ServerRaid PCI SCSI-2 Fast Wide 3-Channel Array Controller board. Brian On Fri, 2006-04-07 at 08:54 -0700, Don Y wrote: > Hi, > > I've got an oddball SCSI controller card that I would > like help identifying (actually, I have several *different* > ones but we'll start with this one :> ) > > Card is full length. PCI. Appears to be made by IBM > (FRU 76H6875). Has three AIC-7880's on it connected to > three "internal" wide SCSI-2 connectors -- and a single > external connector presumably tied to one of these three > busses. Onboard PowerPC and what appears to be a > connector for a flying CF card. A pair of 10 pin > headers one of which has a "SERIAL" legend nearby. > A third header labeled JTAG (no doubt for manufacturing > diagnostics). > > External connector appears to be LVD or SE (bummer, I > was hoping to find a HVD in this box of goodies...) > > I'll assume it's a RAID controller. But, question is > how well (if at all!) it is supported and whether it > is worth my time or if I should just toss it in the > box and dig out the next "mystery card"? > > Thanks! > --don From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 7 11:24:59 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 11:24:59 -0500 Subject: Help ID oddball SCSI controller In-Reply-To: <44368B1A.9020901@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44368B1A.9020901@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <4436925B.5020002@mdrconsult.com> Don Y wrote: > Hi, > > I've got an oddball SCSI controller card that I would > like help identifying (actually, I have several *different* > ones but we'll start with this one :> ) It's a ServerRAID controlller. Fairly vanilla 3-channel RAID. Most of the ServerRAID boards work in PC or PCI-based RS/6000. If you Google that FRU # you'll learn more than you wanted to know about it. Doc From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Fri Apr 7 11:45:19 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 09:45:19 -0700 Subject: Help ID oddball SCSI controller In-Reply-To: <4436925B.5020002@mdrconsult.com> References: <44368B1A.9020901@DakotaCom.Net> <4436925B.5020002@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <4436971F.8010305@DakotaCom.Net> Doc Shipley wrote: > Don Y wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I've got an oddball SCSI controller card that I would >> like help identifying (actually, I have several *different* >> ones but we'll start with this one :> ) > > It's a ServerRAID controlller. Fairly vanilla 3-channel RAID. Most > of the ServerRAID boards work in PC or PCI-based RS/6000. > > If you Google that FRU # you'll learn more than you wanted to know > about it. I googled it before posting. :> All I found were lots of listings for folks wanting to SELL them -- nothing telling me what features it has (RAID 0, 1 and 5 would seem to be what I would expect), what OS's would support it, whether or not the firmware was reasonably current, etc. All references to IBM's site proved to be deadends. One seller site *claimed*: "Windows NT, 2000, OS/2, DOS, Linux, Unix, Netware 4, 5" but that hardly seems definitive (e.g., "Unix"??? :> ) So, my original question still stands... :-/ --don From bdwheele at indiana.edu Fri Apr 7 11:48:36 2006 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 12:48:36 -0400 Subject: Help ID oddball SCSI controller In-Reply-To: <4436971F.8010305@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44368B1A.9020901@DakotaCom.Net> <4436925B.5020002@mdrconsult.com> <4436971F.8010305@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <1144428516.31803.16.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> On Fri, 2006-04-07 at 09:45 -0700, Don Y wrote: > Doc Shipley wrote: > > Don Y wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> I've got an oddball SCSI controller card that I would > >> like help identifying (actually, I have several *different* > >> ones but we'll start with this one :> ) > > > > It's a ServerRAID controlller. Fairly vanilla 3-channel RAID. Most > > of the ServerRAID boards work in PC or PCI-based RS/6000. > > > > If you Google that FRU # you'll learn more than you wanted to know > > about it. > > I googled it before posting. :> All I found were lots of listings > for folks wanting to SELL them -- nothing telling me what features > it has (RAID 0, 1 and 5 would seem to be what I would expect), what > OS's would support it, whether or not the firmware > was reasonably current, etc. > > All references to IBM's site proved to be deadends. > There's a trick to IBM FRU's (at least in my experience). Look up the FRU on IBM's website, and then in any docs you find, note the FRU's this FRU replaces and repeat ad nauseum. Eventually, you'll get to the documentation. Brian From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Apr 7 12:05:03 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 18:05:03 +0100 Subject: P?S/8 (was 4k/8k PDP-8 OSes) In-Reply-To: <200604060313.XAA01721@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200604052316.k35NG4ZU004484@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200604060313.XAA01721@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <44369BBF.7080704@gjcp.net> der Mouse wrote: >>> There is a history of Lasner's P?S/8 up at >>> http://www.idkcomp.com/p?s.html >> glug. that came up as raw html on my browser. did I do something >> wrong? > > No; the server - or perhaps whoever set up that file - did. Look at > the HTTP headers on the response; it's being served as text/plain, so > it *should* be displayed "raw" - despite the HTML content. Browsers > that render it as HTML are *broken*. Yup, because there's a question mark in the filename. It's sending it correctly, as text/plain, because it doesn't know what else to do with it (probably thinks it's a fairly boring CGI script). Gordon. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Apr 7 12:06:50 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 13:06:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sticky tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604071708.NAA07387@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [...] (you do know you have to retension the tape before you try >> reading it, don't you?) > These are QIC tapes you're talking about right? I forget how you're > supposed to retension them. Wind them from one end to the other and back again. "mt -f ... retension" works for me, but YMMV depending on your OS. I suppose you could even do it by hand, but that would be...tedious. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Apr 7 12:09:14 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 10:09:14 -0700 Subject: Convert D1000 to LVD? In-Reply-To: <44368FC2.4020605@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44368FC2.4020605@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44369CBA.3010501@msm.umr.edu> Don Y wrote: > Hi, > > I have a D1000 array and wonder if there is any > way to convert it to a LVD interface? (I have > lots of LVD *PC* controllers but only one HVD > and that's SBUS). > > Thanks! > --don > > I would convert to single ended, and I hope your LVD are switch hitters on that count. Those converters are not hard to find. I have not found many that switch to LVD from HVD that are reasonably priced, though I am sure they are out there. I recently saw an HVD controller for sale on epay, and usually there are 2944's available if you are targeting PC's. Is the other controller card you are refering to on the other thread LVD, and what you are going to, or do you have the luxury of supplying the initator end of the deal? Jim From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Fri Apr 7 12:24:40 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 10:24:40 -0700 Subject: Convert D1000 to LVD? In-Reply-To: <44369CBA.3010501@msm.umr.edu> References: <44368FC2.4020605@DakotaCom.Net> <44369CBA.3010501@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4436A058.8090507@DakotaCom.Net> jim stephens wrote: > Don Y wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I have a D1000 array and wonder if there is any >> way to convert it to a LVD interface? (I have >> lots of LVD *PC* controllers but only one HVD >> and that's SBUS). > > I would convert to single ended, and I hope your LVD > are switch hitters on that count. Those converters are > not hard to find. I have not found many that switch to > LVD from HVD that are reasonably priced, though I am > sure they are out there. Actually, I was wondering if there were any jumpers in the controller that would "help me" :> I see a couple but I don't imagine they do what I want. I wouldn't mind cannibalizing the controller card as long as it wasn't too severe a hack-job to do so :-( I imagine the A1000 controller card is also HVD (?) so that wouldn't be a realistic option, either. :-( If the option is to add a black box in the middle for $$$, I'll just pull the drives, discard the D1000 and move them to other machines, etc. > I recently saw an HVD controller for sale on epay, and > usually there are 2944's available if you are targeting > PC's. Is the other controller card you are refering to > on the other thread LVD, and what you are going to, > or do you have the luxury of supplying the initator end > of the deal? Not sure what thread you mean (the RAID controller?)... I have lots of AHA1542's (SE, ISA), 2940UW's (Wide, PCI), and I think a 29160 or two. I have a couple of Wide SBUS controllers (HBE??), *one* HVD SBUS controller (that currently talks to the D1000), several oddball PCI RAID controllers (most of which have a *very* fine pitch connector on the outside -- I've never found a cable that mates to these), several wide controllers built into different hosts (e.g., the AViiON 3700), etc. I just want to get the drives online but *off* of the SS20 that is currently hosting them (I'd like to retire that machine -- at least temporarily). My immediate goal would be something like a 2944 to run the D1000 off of the *old* AViiON 3000 -- but, it would be nicer to have the D1000 converted to LVD so I could have a greater choice of where it resides! Thanks! --don From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Fri Apr 7 12:27:09 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 10:27:09 -0700 Subject: Help ID oddball SCSI controller In-Reply-To: <1144428516.31803.16.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <44368B1A.9020901@DakotaCom.Net> <4436925B.5020002@mdrconsult.com> <4436971F.8010305@DakotaCom.Net> <1144428516.31803.16.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <4436A0ED.8010209@DakotaCom.Net> Brian Wheeler wrote: > On Fri, 2006-04-07 at 09:45 -0700, Don Y wrote: >> Doc Shipley wrote: >>> Don Y wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I've got an oddball SCSI controller card that I would >>>> like help identifying (actually, I have several *different* >>>> ones but we'll start with this one :> ) >>> It's a ServerRAID controlller. Fairly vanilla 3-channel RAID. Most >>> of the ServerRAID boards work in PC or PCI-based RS/6000. >>> >>> If you Google that FRU # you'll learn more than you wanted to know >>> about it. >> I googled it before posting. :> All I found were lots of listings >> for folks wanting to SELL them -- nothing telling me what features >> it has (RAID 0, 1 and 5 would seem to be what I would expect), what >> OS's would support it, whether or not the firmware >> was reasonably current, etc. >> >> All references to IBM's site proved to be deadends. >> > > There's a trick to IBM FRU's (at least in my experience). Look up the > FRU on IBM's website, and then in any docs you find, note the FRU's this > FRU replaces and repeat ad nauseum. Eventually, you'll get to the > documentation. Ah, OK. I'll try that. I had assumed that perhaps the Lenovo deal had caused much of this stuff to just "disappear"... Thanks! --don From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Apr 7 12:30:04 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 13:30:04 -0400 Subject: Help ID oddball SCSI controller In-Reply-To: <4436A0ED.8010209@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44368B1A.9020901@DakotaCom.Net> <4436925B.5020002@mdrconsult.com> <4436971F.8010305@DakotaCom.Net> <1144428516.31803.16.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> <4436A0ED.8010209@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <4436A19C.6050805@gmail.com> Don Y wrote: >> There's a trick to IBM FRU's (at least in my experience). Look up the >> FRU on IBM's website, and then in any docs you find, note the FRU's this >> FRU replaces and repeat ad nauseum. Eventually, you'll get to the >> documentation. > > Ah, OK. I'll try that. I had assumed that perhaps the Lenovo > deal had caused much of this stuff to just "disappear"... Probably not. These were used on RS/6K's too. Not much SCSI stuff went to Lenovo. Even PC-based Intellistations and PC-based eServer xSeries machines are still IBM. Just the commercial desktops and laptops went to Lenovo. Peace... Sridhar From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Fri Apr 7 12:53:07 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 10:53:07 -0700 Subject: Help ID oddball SCSI controller In-Reply-To: <4436A19C.6050805@gmail.com> References: <44368B1A.9020901@DakotaCom.Net> <4436925B.5020002@mdrconsult.com> <4436971F.8010305@DakotaCom.Net> <1144428516.31803.16.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> <4436A0ED.8010209@DakotaCom.Net> <4436A19C.6050805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4436A703.8010006@DakotaCom.Net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Don Y wrote: >>> There's a trick to IBM FRU's (at least in my experience). Look up the >>> FRU on IBM's website, and then in any docs you find, note the FRU's this >>> FRU replaces and repeat ad nauseum. Eventually, you'll get to the >>> documentation. >> >> Ah, OK. I'll try that. I had assumed that perhaps the Lenovo >> deal had caused much of this stuff to just "disappear"... > > Probably not. These were used on RS/6K's too. Not much SCSI stuff went > to Lenovo. Even PC-based Intellistations and PC-based eServer xSeries > machines are still IBM. Just the commercial desktops and laptops went > to Lenovo. Oh, I had thought *all* of this business was sold off <:-) --don From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 7 12:58:32 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 10:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Convert D1000 to LVD? In-Reply-To: <44368FC2.4020605@DakotaCom.Net> from "Don Y" at Apr 07, 2006 09:13:54 AM Message-ID: <200604071758.k37HwWDq022630@onyx.spiritone.com> > I have a D1000 array and wonder if there is any > way to convert it to a LVD interface? (I have > lots of LVD *PC* controllers but only one HVD > and that's SBUS). I would think that it would be cheaper to simply get an HVD controller. They at least used to be fairly common, and most people don't have a need for them anymore. Zane From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Apr 7 13:16:01 2006 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:16:01 EDT Subject: Help ID oddball SCSI controller Message-ID: <84.57f779f3.31680661@aol.com> In a message dated 4/7/2006 11:57:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dgy at dakotacom.net writes: Hi, I've got an oddball SCSI controller card that I would like help identifying (actually, I have several *different* ones but we'll start with this one :> ) Card is full length. PCI. Appears to be made by IBM (FRU 76H6875). Has three AIC-7880's on it connected to three "internal" wide SCSI-2 connectors -- and a single external connector presumably tied to one of these three busses. Onboard PowerPC and what appears to be a connector for a flying CF card. A pair of 10 pin headers one of which has a "SERIAL" legend nearby. A third header labeled JTAG (no doubt for manufacturing diagnostics). External connector appears to be LVD or SE (bummer, I was hoping to find a HVD in this box of goodies...) I'll assume it's a RAID controller. But, question is how well (if at all!) it is supported and whether it is worth my time or if I should just toss it in the box and dig out the next "mystery card"? Thanks! --don ------------------- Its probably a Serveraid 5,6 or 7 series controller. Somewhere on IBM I found a document that listed the capabilities of the controllers over the years. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 7 15:51:38 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 15:51:38 -0500 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics Message-ID: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> I thought I'd post a few pictures of my IBM emulation setup. While it's not complete, it is functioning. There is a PC box running unix with the hercules emulator on it. This box has RJ45 ethernet to wireless for the home network. Also a temporary PC monitor & keyboard (to be replaced with a rackmount 1U lcd/kbd unit soon as I can find one cheap). Of course, it's just not the same unless you're running a real IBM 3270 style terminal... so... the PC also has a token ring card that is connected to a 8223 MAU via type 1 cables. Also connected to the 8223 is an IBM 3174 establishment controller (dual floppies, 9mb ram, token ring - config C). Then connected to the 3174 is an IBM 3197 color display station. Yup, I know it's been done before, but I wanted to do it too :) I'm still working on the code that lets my real HP2000/Access TimeShared BASIC submit COBOL, FTN, BAL, PL/1, etc. jobs to the emulated IBM 370 setup and get it's output and/or datasets back to the HP. Fun stuff. I'm also going to try and set up a printer on the 3174 at some point as well. I had a nice rack picked out for this hercules setup, but decided on a different rack. Next step is to get all the stuff you see in the pics rackmounted along with 1/2 tape drive & add SCSI controller to the herc PC. Anyways, pictures can be seen at : http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/ibm/ MOST of the pics are clear this time :) Jay From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 7 16:29:36 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 15:29:36 -0600 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 07 Apr 2006 15:51:38 -0500. <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > There is a PC box running unix with the hercules emulator on it. What's the "hercules emulator"? Is this emulating a Hercules graphics card? (Doubtful, but I thought I'd ask!) > [...] Of course, it's just not the same unless you're > running a real IBM 3270 style terminal... so... the PC also has a token ring > card that is connected to a 8223 MAU via type 1 cables. Speaking of 3270 style terminals, I picked up a 3180 terminal. I like the spring-loaded rising pedestal on it! However, I see that it doesn't talk normal RS-232 like most terminals, it has a coax style connector on the back. Does this mean I need to get a token ring setup as you describe above in order to get it to talk? If yes, what would I need to get? Assume I know nothing... because that's accurate :). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Apr 7 16:31:44 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:31:44 -0700 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> Jay West wrote: > I thought I'd post a few pictures of my IBM emulation setup. While > it's not complete, it is functioning. > excellent photos of this. Nothing is quite as nice as a VM 370 login logo to those who first saw it on "real" hardware. Do you have any more bits of data on the token ring setup that you could share? I have been collecting bits and pieces to use to do the same, including the token ring stuff, 3174, etc, but am not sure if I have what I need, expecially in the 3174. I worked mostly on the big 3174's like are channel attached, and am not familiar with the memory options, or the token ring setup. If there is a yell about this being boring to others, I'm glad to take it to a hercules group, or offline. I also have 3290s but doubt if they can be livened up. thanks Jim From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 7 16:59:36 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 16:59:36 -0500 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics References: Message-ID: <002101c65a8e$8ffa9de0$6800a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote... > What's the "hercules emulator"? Is this emulating a Hercules graphics > card? (Doubtful, but I thought I'd ask!) The hercules emulator is a program that runs on either windows or unix and emulates any one of a number of IBM System/370 and ESA/370 architecture mainframe systems. Think mainframe OS's like VM/CMS, DOS/VSE, MVS, CICS, MUSIC, etc. I may try MUSIC soon, what with the TCP/IP, FTP, HTTP, etc. support it has :) But my heart is still fond of VM/CMS, as that's what I used a lot in college. >> [...] Of course, it's just not the same unless you're >> running a real IBM 3270 style terminal... so... the PC also has a token >> ring >> card that is connected to a 8223 MAU via type 1 cables. Ug... I goofed... my MAU is an 8228, not an 8223. My terminal is a 3179, not a 3197. > Speaking of 3270 style terminals, I picked up a 3180 terminal. I like > the spring-loaded rising pedestal on it! However, I see that it > doesn't talk normal RS-232 like most terminals, it has a coax style > connector on the back. No, it doesn't talk anything like RS-232 :) Nor can it be converted to do so. It's a whole different ball of wax. In the world of most mini's, terminals were generally interchangeable. Not so in the ibm world. You can't just hook a 3270 terminal up to a DEC or DG or HP. First, you must hook the coax term to a controller like the 3174. I have recently dug in to the 3174 and that is one incredible box. Talk about massively over designed and full of more options and features than one could barely dream up... wow. I think your 3180 terminal is only useful if you have an IBM host to hook it up to. That being said, I see some mention on the 3174 manual about setting the terminal in to "cut" mode and then it might open multiple sessions to tcp/ip hosts. I am not sure I'm reading about that capability correctly though. > Does this mean I need to get a token ring setup as you describe above > in order to get it to talk? You won't get it to talk to a non-ibm host ... unless what I suggested above is true. You'd need a 3174 at the least. You don't have to have token ring set up. You can get a 3174 with the ethernet option for around $1500, or you can get a 3174 with the token ring option for around $50. You decide :) > If yes, what would I need to get? Assume I know nothing... because > that's accurate :). Well, first, I need to see if it is possible to have a coax terminal talk to a non-3270 speaking host. I can define another station set in the 3174 that goes to the standard telnet port and then connect from the 3179 and see if it flys. No clue. If it does, then you could use that terminal. But honestly, you have to go through a lot of gyrations and have a 3174 as well, not sure it's worth it unless you have/want an IBM host. Jay From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Apr 7 17:03:57 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 15:03:57 -0700 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4436E1CD.2050109@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: > >Speaking of 3270 style terminals, I picked up a 3180 terminal. I like >the spring-loaded rising pedestal on it! However, I see that it >doesn't talk normal RS-232 like most terminals, it has a coax style >connector on the back. > >Does this mean I need to get a token ring setup as you describe above >in order to get it to talk? > >If yes, what would I need to get? Assume I know nothing... because >that's accurate :). > > a 3180 looks to be a standard 3270. It can be used with a controller on an IBM mainframe, System 36, or various other ibm systems. IBM used a high speed serial protocol that continuously circulates information from the controller to the display / keyboard / lightpen, mouse unit, and put a lot of functionality of what an ascii terminal would do in the controller. the box you get as a 327x terminal, which this one probably can be made to look like has a lot less potential for use than what we on Classic computing is used to, as the logic and smarts was in a single box, shared by lots of tubes. This approach allowed larger installations to be lower cost to fit out, because all the terminals did not have to be "smart" even by ADM 3 dumb terminal standards. The 3270 electronics and its sibling, the Twinax 525x type interface also allowed something that RS232 did not, that is installations that were not of a star type topology. with ascii, you have to do a home run back to the host with rs232 for every terminal, and with 3270, you can do multiple drops on a single hose, or daisy chain with 525x. Also you can run thru a remote controller thru a bisync port, and put a controller similar to what Jay showed, but instead of token ring on the host side, a 3780 type modem and com interface, and put the terminal cluster anywhere in the world. Also there are 327x type printers available which attach as well as a whole host of other gizmos, such as one would expect from IBM's terminal manufacturing division. The Hercules emulator is an emulator which allows one to run an emulated IBM mainframe. The software is limited to public domain or Linux, without special IBM license which is not available at the moment for current mainframe software OS's. It is much more appropriate for you to seek information on the yahoo groups support groups for much more on that. See below for a link to the hercules emulator home page. Jim hercules home page. http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules The above has links to where to get information and software to run on your emulated mainframe. The mainframe software may be hosted on linux, mac, or windows, and in some cases on sparc. It is purely a software implementation. Only in the case Jay mentions is it possible to hook to actual IBM gear, directly, though there are emulated connetions to go between more than one Hercules emulation instance. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 7 17:21:47 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 17:21:47 -0500 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> Jim wrote... > Do you have any more bits of data on the token ring setup that you could > share? I have been collecting > bits and pieces to use to do the same, including the token ring stuff, > 3174, etc, but am not sure if I have > what I need, expecially in the 3174. Yeah, I've recently been through it. Wasn't documented really, so I did a lot of floundering. Configuring the 3174 was a nightmare for me, as I was totally new to it. I found it to be obtuse and complex. One could argue I find all things that way, so who knows. You need: A coax term such as a 3278, 3279, 3179, etc. I am not up on this, but it appears there are a lot of similar terminals that aren't compatible. A 3174. There are many models. You need a model that supports either ethernet (easy & direct, but expensive), or token ring (cheap, convoluted). If you get one with ethernet support, you just plug it into an ethernet hub along with your hercules-running-PC, and you're done. But the ethernet ones are really steep on the $$$ side. So I went with token ring. Mainly because 3174's with token ring are dirt cheap, but also, I liked the "retro factor" of token ring, and figured there may be other token ring devices I wanted to connect. It was authentic for the rest of the setup to me :) The catch is, no matter what, your 3174 must support config C, which denotes dual floppy drives (not single) and 8mb or more of ram (many 3174's have 2mb). I believe the 3174 that meets all this is 3174-63R. You can get a -61R and then upgrade the floppy and ram and add token ring (that's what I did) effectively making it a -63R. Why all the hardware requirements? Because you need TN3270 support, and that is in software release C6.4. Older releases apparently don't support TN3270. If you do this, give the guys at lordsnet.com a call. They were VERY collector-friendly (awesomely cheap to me). Advice - lordsnet.com can help you with microcode disks for the 3174. You can also call IBM direct and get a backup set at no cost. If you went the token ring route, you need a token ring card for your PC. Watch out for this, Linux and Freebsd support for token ring is really really spotty. Only a handful of cards supported and lots of pitfalls with each one. For freebsd, use olicom. It mostly works out of the box. For Linux, use Madge. There are many olicoms freebsd doesn't support, and many madge's that don't work on linux. Just certain models of each. I think you can create a "crossover" cable to connect the two token ring db9 ports, saving you a hub. However, I wasn't sure of that, wanted the retro type-1 ports, so I went with a 8228 MAU and type-1 cables. You could also go with the RJ45 style token ring cables and hubs (or crossover). You'll need a lot of patience to configure the 3174. I found it a real nightmare to get my head around and get it configured right. If you want to do this, call me while the scoop is still in my head :) > I also have 3290s but doubt if they can be livened up. I really wish I had the space and power for a 4331, 4341, or maybe 4381. But I don't :) Jay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 7 17:02:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 23:02:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT278/decmate docs? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 7, 6 05:03:22 pm Message-ID: > If you really had to, I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to take a BC08 > and run it from the RX02 board in the pedestal out to, say, an RXV11 > or RX8E, but I think in practice it's not too hard to wire up a > DB25-to-Berg-40 transition board if you can't find an original one. I've done the reverse, it wasn't hard. On my desk I have a PDP8/e with an RX8E board in it. On the floor under the disk is a 'tabletop' RX01. I made a cable to link them. A length of IDC cable with a DB25 plug crimped on one end and the wires split at the other aned and connected to the appropriate pins on a 40 pin header socket. Somewhere I should have the notes I made doing this. which would give the pinout of the DB25. -tony From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Apr 7 17:31:44 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 23:31:44 +0100 Subject: DECserver 200MC circuit diagram Message-ID: <005001c65a93$0cc70620$0200a8c0@p2deskto> Hi, does anyone have a circuit diagram for a DECserver 200MC, or at least the power supply? I have one with a very dead PSU....... Regards Jim. Please see our website: www.g1jbg.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 7 17:47:24 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 23:47:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: DECserver 200MC circuit diagram In-Reply-To: <005001c65a93$0cc70620$0200a8c0@p2deskto> from "Jim Beacon" at Apr 7, 6 11:31:44 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > does anyone have a circuit diagram for a DECserver 200MC, or at least the > power supply? I have one with a very dead PSU....... Assuming this is a switch-mode unit, have you checked the obvious suspects? Start by looking at the fuse. If it's blown 'softly' replace it and try again. If it's shattereed or blackened, then suspect a shorted semiconductor device on the mains side of the PSU. Either the rectifier diodes or a chopper transistor. If the latter, then it's possible some other component (snubber capacitor, chopper trnasformer) has failed and taken the transistor with it. If the fuse is good, then it's possible (probable?) that the startup resistor is open. Look for a high-value resistor (hundreds of k) -- maybe 2 resistors in series -- from the +ve side of the cmains smoothing capacitors to a point in the chopper driver circuit. If you find such a resistor, test it. -tony From ygehrich at yahoo.com Fri Apr 7 18:02:43 2006 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 19:02:43 -0400 Subject: $10 Computers (3 for $25) Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060407185455.04c360a0@yahoo.com> I am trying to reduce the volume of boxes that I have in my garage. The following items are just $10 each (3 for $25) and are sold as is. Most should work fine but cannot guarantee them. I may have power supplies, software and other parts available for some of them at extra cost. Plus shipping of course from 34611. I'll do my best to answer questions Please respond directly to gene.ehrich at yahoo.com Atari 800 Computer just computer (tested) no system or memory boards Atari 400 Computer (2) just computer Atari 800XL Computer (2) just computer Atari 65XE computer (just computer) Commodore 64 Power Supply (7) Commodore 1541 disk drives (7) Commodore 64 (newer shape) very clean, console only Commodore 64 real clean console Commodore 64 w/cover real clean (2) console only Commodore C2N 1530 Cassette in original box w/manual Commodore C2N Cassette player Commodore C2N Cassette Player (small one) Commodore Modem 300 with diskette & manual in original box C64 (console only) Commodore C64 computer (console only) Commodore C128 (F7 key missing) just computer Datamaster Computer Cassette Drive in box Taihaho Computer Cassette drive in original box Commodore MPS-801 Printer Tandy 1000 EX Personal Computer Model 106806 Tandy Color Computer 2 (just computer) (2) TI-99/4A Modulator UM1381-1 NEW TI Home Computer 99/4A Cassette Cable NEW PHA 2622 TI Home Computer 99/4A Dual Cassette Cable NEW one w/2 leads 1/with 3 PHA 2000 TI 99/4A silver computer (3) just computer TI 99/4A Computer grey metal (just the computer) TI 99/4A silver metal top TI 99/4A Computer tan case Timex Sinclair 1016 - 16K memory module (3) Timex Sinclaire 1000 Computer User Manual (3) VIC-20 Computer 6 key came off (included) VIC-20 Computer VIC-20 (just computer) From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 7 18:25:17 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 18:25:17 -0500 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: <003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> <003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4436F4DD.1060702@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > If you went the token ring route, you need a token ring card for your > PC. Watch out for this, Linux and Freebsd support for token ring is > really really spotty. Only a handful of cards supported and lots of > pitfalls with each one. For freebsd, use olicom. It mostly works out of > the box. For Linux, use Madge. There are many olicoms freebsd doesn't > support, and many madge's that don't work on linux. Just certain models > of each. I think you can create a "crossover" cable to connect the two > token ring db9 ports, saving you a hub. However, I wasn't sure of that, > wanted the retro type-1 ports, so I went with a 8228 MAU and type-1 > cables. You could also go with the RJ45 style token ring cables and hubs > (or crossover). A short word here - IBM-branded PCI token ring adapters work out-of-the-box in Linux, with the olympic driver. The IBM 4/16 PCMCIA card also works with no major hassle, except (ironically) on ThinkPads. Then you have to make an address exclusion in the PCMCIA config files. Olicom's PCMCIA adapters didn't work at all in Linux through v2.2 and v2.4. Some ISA adapters work in some systems, but configuration is a nightmare. I do a lot of Linux training for IBM, and it's amazing how many of their US campuses waited till 2003-2004 to move to ethernet. Doc From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 7 18:48:02 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 18:48:02 -0500 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu><003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436F4DD.1060702@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <000401c65a9d$b5e9c6c0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Doc wrote... > A short word here - IBM-branded PCI token ring adapters work > out-of-the-box in Linux, with the olympic driver. Not what I found. "IBM Branded" could mean one of several different families, and only certain models of certain families are supported. In addition, I found some adapters that were supported at one time, but are certainly not supported on more current releases (the drivers certainly wouldn't compile as is, and needed a severe amount of handwork to bring them up to date). Not to mention token ring support in more recent linux kernels has been all but dropped, the token ring project hasn't been updated in ages... etc. (2003?). > Olicom's PCMCIA adapters didn't work at all in Linux through v2.2 and > v2.4. Some ISA adapters work in some systems, but configuration is a > nightmare. Yeah, they did. I hacked up an old version of the olicom drivers to make it work on my kernel. Yes, it was a complete nightmare. Example... a Madge 16/4 card.... You'd think this was just one card. Nope. There are subtle variations in the card, some are supported and some aren't. Jay From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 7 22:22:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 21:22:50 -0600 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 07 Apr 2006 17:21:47 -0500. <003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: So is it hopeless that I'll ever see this terminal up and going? There was quite a bit of information in this discussion so far, but not anything telling me exactly what I would need to do in order to talk to this terminal through the 800-pound-market-gorilla-that-shall- not-be-named-because-we're-snooty :-). Remember, I know nothing about IBM boxes or equipment. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Apr 7 23:39:59 2006 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 21:39:59 -0700 Subject: Help ID oddball SCSI controller In-Reply-To: <84.57f779f3.31680661@aol.com> Message-ID: <04e601c65ac6$7f44af30$0501a8c0@liberator> >From http://www.dealtime.com/xPF-IBM_IBM_SERVERAID_PCI_SCSI2_ADAPTER_P_N_76H6875 Outstanding performance! Simply put, that is what you get with the IBM PC ServeRAID Adapter! It achieves outstanding performance through the use of a PowerPC 403 processor, 4MB of cache, and a dual bus architecture with a local PCI bus. These attributes significantly improve system performance by reducing traffic on the system local bus and by rapidly processing complex RAID algorithms with the high speed processor. The IBM PC ServeRAID Adapter contains three connectors, one for each channel, and one external connector. Three of the four connectors can be used for attachment of SCSI devices. Known compatible IBM Systems: PC Server 310 (except 166/200MHz models), PC server 315, PC Server 320, PC Server 325 Pentium Pro models, PC Server 325 Rack Mounted models, PC Server 330 Pentium Pro models, PC Server 520, PC Server 704, PC Server 720.. Please note that this is a difficult card to set up, and that we really recommend that it be done by a computer professional. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 11:16 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Help ID oddball SCSI controller In a message dated 4/7/2006 11:57:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dgy at dakotacom.net writes: Hi, I've got an oddball SCSI controller card that I would like help identifying (actually, I have several *different* ones but we'll start with this one :> ) Card is full length. PCI. Appears to be made by IBM (FRU 76H6875 From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Apr 7 23:44:29 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 21:44:29 -0700 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44373FAD.9010509@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: >So is it hopeless that I'll ever see this terminal up and going? > >There was quite a bit of information in this discussion so far, but >not anything telling me exactly what I would need to do in order to >talk to this terminal through the 800-pound-market-gorilla-that-shall- >not-be-named-because-we're-snooty :-). > >Remember, I know nothing about IBM boxes or equipment. > > short answer is that you have a smart crt, keyboard and no smarts. you have to do it the IBM way with that terminal. the only thing you might be able to do short of that with an IBM terminal is if it is twinax. Baby 36's are like large AT's about the size of two of them stacked on on another and stood on edge. (in fact one I had looked like an at, and not the ones that required an AT to support it). Jay's pile is one alternative to light it up, but the top of that learing curve is a long way from your current experience level obviously is with IBM gear, and may not be interesting. It would not cost you a lot in hardware though, in money terms. Jim From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 7 23:48:35 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 16:48:35 +1200 Subject: Longshot: Symbol PDT 1510A as a terminal In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060407100808.47e716dc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <1143916050.16400.50.camel@fortran.babel> <3.0.6.16.20060407100808.47e716dc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: At 08:27 PM 4/1/06 +0200, you wrote: >On Wed, 2006-01-25 at 14:44 -0700, Richard wrote: >> In article <012301c621e6$e71efc00$5f25fea9 at ibm23xhr06>, >> "John Allain" writes: >> >> > I recently obtained a Symbol Technologies 1510A made as a dedicated >> > laser scanner, that is, eprom'ed to do a specific task. [...] >> >> Is this a handheld unit? I am unfamiliar with this device. Do you >> have a picture or link to a page on it? http://home.c2i.net/trygveh/english/gadgetman/special/msipdt1510.html I have a couple older MSI/88e hand-held terminals - 1802-based w/one-line LED display. I'd love to come across any internals information on the 1510A... sounds like something easy to adapt to become a hand-held ASCII terminal (useful for tasks like attaching to the internal diagnostic serial port on a DEC RA81). So if anyone knows about the guts of a 1510A, I'd love to know, too. -ethan > >My Symbol machines are all ruggedized versions of standard-ish small > >machines from the day - sometimes with extras. Mine has some WLAN card > >and a barcode scanner. > > > > FWIW NASA surpluses tons of the Symbol bar code readers at auction at > KSC. Recently they've started listing them as Export-Controlled items. > Anybody have any idea why? > > Joe > > From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Apr 8 00:18:40 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 00:18:40 -0500 Subject: Streched bands on QIC DCs Message-ID: So, forward thinking on this problem (1) did the band formulation change in the early '90s to eliminate the problem? if not, then (2) has anyone tried anything for replacement or (3) how do you keep QICs in good repair band-wise? since they seem to be being dropped rapidly, and many computers won't bootstrap off of anything else, it looks like there might be a problem in about 5 years. Fortunately, it looks like the tapes aren't creased. From josef.deuschinger at web.de Thu Apr 6 08:49:30 2006 From: josef.deuschinger at web.de (Josef Deuschinger) Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 15:49:30 +0200 Subject: Tektronix 4041 GPIB controller Message-ID: <44351C6A.2020500@web.de> Hi Mike, if your 4041 request for help concerning the controller is still valid, I have some answers. So please let me know if your posted request dated October 22 02 is still valid. Best regards, Josef From sdc695 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 7 16:40:56 2006 From: sdc695 at yahoo.com (Tom Watson) Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Programmer's conundrums Message-ID: <20060407214057.23540.qmail@web60813.mail.yahoo.com> Tony Duell says: > Yes, back when engineers actually thought about things and didn't attempt > to 'solve' problems by throwing computing power at them. > -tony I believe that one of the first lessons that should be taught is to program something (of a size greater than a "hello world" program) on an ASR33 or equivalent device. It is a VERY humbling experience. One actually learns to look at programs before executing a compile/run step and takes some thought before doing a "let's try this". I was also told about the firm that went to an automated payroll system. The first candidates (beta testers) were the programmers themselves. Having a built in incentive to "get it right" is VERY motivating. Everyone should keep an ASR33 floating around just to show others. An LA30 is an (almost) acceptable substitute. -- Tom Watson tsw at johana.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Apr 8 02:21:40 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 02:21:40 -0500 Subject: $10 Computers (3 for $25) In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060407185455.04c360a0@yahoo.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20060407185455.04c360a0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <44376484.1040907@oldskool.org> Gene Ehrich wrote: > Tandy 1000 EX Personal Computer Model 106806 I can take this off your hands in May if nobody else wants it by then. Shipping should be around $15, so if you still have it in May I can paypal you $25 for it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Apr 8 02:39:08 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 08:39:08 +0100 Subject: Ultima Underworld In-Reply-To: <44357F80.50801@oldskool.org> References: <4430991D.3090905@yahoo.co.uk> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C2005A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <44357F80.50801@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4437689C.4080209@gjcp.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Gooijen, Henk wrote: >> - Dynamics A10 > > That would be A-10 Tank Killer by Dynamix. > >> I don't know how well they would read ... > > If they weren't exposed to heat above 90 degrees F. they should be fine. A bit like the A-10 tanks, then. Gordon From technobug at comcast.net Sat Apr 8 03:03:10 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 01:03:10 -0700 Subject: Cyber NOS/BE Dead Start Tapes In-Reply-To: <200604080731.k387VM7k002905@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604080731.k387VM7k002905@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <58865D73-4C3E-4A33-8893-5C9FB1B19FC6@comcast.net> Does anyone have a copy or image of this tape? CRC From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 8 07:48:34 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 05:48:34 -0700 Subject: Streched bands on QIC DCs Message-ID: > (1) did the band formulation change in the early '90s to eliminate the problem? Not that I know of. I just think the useful life is limited to 10-15 years. I don't think the designers of these tapes ever thought about the need to read a tape written 20+ years in the future. > since they seem to be being dropped rapidly, and many computers won't bootstrap > off of anything else, it looks like there might be a problem in about 5 years. There has actually been serious problems with keeping the drives going as well as the pinch roller decomposes. Be VERY careful the one in your drive doesn't soften and turn to goo when you're using it. If you follow the discussions about this over the past few years, a LOT of HP software on DC100 tapes has become unrecoverable because of deterioration of the rollers and the bands fusing to the tape. The most important thing right now to get as much data preserved as can be recovered. This is why I've been trying to read as many of these tapes now as I can before the data I have becomes too expensive and time consuming to recover. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 8 07:52:30 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 05:52:30 -0700 Subject: Cyber NOS/BE Dead Start Tapes Message-ID: > Does anyone have a copy or image of this tape? If you are trying to get Tom Hunter's simulator going, you could try getting access to the controlfreaks archive. They aren't very open about people being allowed access, though. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Apr 8 08:17:07 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 06:17:07 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <20060407214057.23540.qmail@web60813.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060407214057.23540.qmail@web60813.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4437B7D3.3050208@DakotaCom.Net> Tom Watson wrote: > Tony Duell says: > >> Yes, back when engineers actually thought about things and didn't attempt >> to 'solve' problems by throwing computing power at them. > > I believe that one of the first lessons that should be taught is to program > something (of a size greater than a "hello world" program) on an ASR33 or > equivalent device. It is a VERY humbling experience. One actually learns to > look at programs before executing a compile/run step and takes some thought > before doing a "let's try this". Heh heh heh... Hollerith cards! :> The ASR-33 is attached to an *interactive* system (often). Imagine having to punch the cards (and the right JCL!), wait in queue for it to be submitted, and then, some hours later, get a "syntax error on line 27" :> ["Crap! it's already 5:00PM..."] But, your point is well taken -- with faster and faster development tools, people seem to just make a change, type 'make' and "let's see if that works" (instead of *knowing* if it SHOULD work). I think this is where a lot of bugs creep into designs -- once it *appears* to work, they move on to the next problem without sorting out why this problem needed that particular fix... > I was also told about the firm that went to an automated payroll system. The > first candidates (beta testers) were the programmers themselves. Having a > built in incentive to "get it right" is VERY motivating. > > Everyone should keep an ASR33 floating around just to show others. An LA30 is > an (almost) acceptable substitute. From allain at panix.com Sat Apr 8 08:50:00 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 09:50:00 -0400 Subject: Longshot: Symbol PDT 1510A as a terminal References: <1143916050.16400.50.camel@fortran.babel><3.0.6.16.20060407100808.47e716dc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <000801c65b13$7501db40$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > I'd love to come across any internals information on the 1510A... > sounds like something easy to adapt to become a hand-held ASCII > terminal It should all be possible at a software level. If the right person had a vanilla enough ROM for one, we'd all be set just by copying it. > http://home.c2i.net/trygveh/english/gadgetman/special/msipdt1510.html BTW the 'big head' on this one is just the scnner part, and is removeable, at least with mine. John A. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Apr 8 09:13:40 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 07:13:40 -0700 Subject: Help ID oddball SCSI controller In-Reply-To: <04e601c65ac6$7f44af30$0501a8c0@liberator> References: <04e601c65ac6$7f44af30$0501a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <4437C514.5000409@DakotaCom.Net> Hi, Geoff Reed wrote: >>From > http://www.dealtime.com/xPF-IBM_IBM_SERVERAID_PCI_SCSI2_ADAPTER_P_N_76H6875 > > Outstanding performance! Simply put, that is what you get with the IBM PC > ServeRAID Adapter! It achieves outstanding performance through the use of a > PowerPC 403 processor, 4MB of cache, and a dual bus architecture with a > local PCI bus. These attributes significantly improve system performance by > reducing traffic on the system local bus and by rapidly processing complex > RAID algorithms with the high speed processor. The IBM PC ServeRAID Adapter > contains three connectors, one for each channel, and one external connector. > Three of the four connectors can be used for attachment of SCSI devices. Yes, but I can *see* all of that just by looking at the card :-/ > Known compatible IBM Systems: PC Server 310 (except 166/200MHz models), PC > server 315, PC Server 320, PC Server 325 Pentium Pro models, PC Server 325 > Rack Mounted models, PC Server 330 Pentium Pro models, PC Server 520, PC > Server 704, PC Server 720.. Please note that this is a difficult card to set > up, and that we really recommend that it be done by a computer professional. Ah! I'd best find me one of these ("computer professional") lest I break something! :> (sigh) Looks like the best plan of action is just to install the thing and see what works with it! Might as well put one of each of the other cards in the machine at the same time and cut down on all the board swapping... Thanks! --don From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 8 11:58:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 09:58:45 -0700 Subject: Streched bands on QIC DCs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604080958450601.42B419DF@10.0.0.252> On 4/8/2006 at 5:48 AM Al Kossow wrote: >Not that I know of. I just think the useful life is limited to 10-15 >years. I don't think the designers of these tapes ever thought about the >need to read a tape written 20+ years in the future. I think a big factor is the type of the medium. When I finally got my QIC02 setup going under NetBSD, I grabbed a couple of DC6150 backup tapes that I made back in 1991 and had stored for almost a year in the glove compartment of my car (Why? The tapes were supposed to go into the safety deposit box at my bank but I forgot about them). They read error-free. When the batch of customer's tapes written in 1992 arrived (for which I'd gone through the whole exercise) they read perfectly. I'd need to find the backup software that I used, but it would be interesting to see if the batch of little DC-1000 tapes that I wrote a few years earlier still can be read on the little Irwin "floppy tape" drive I still have. On the "retensioning" question, I'd think that rather than using the default of high-speed seek to end, then rewinding, I'd think it'd be better to simply read to the end and then read in the reverse direction back to the start. Less stress on the tape--and easy to do on the serpentine-recorded tapes. Cheers, Chuck From geneb at simpits.com Sat Apr 8 12:06:55 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 10:06:55 -0700 Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> <003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4437EDAF.1020403@simpits.com> Is there a way to connect a 5-1/4 drive to a regular PC via USB? Is there a commercial product available? tnx! g. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 8 12:14:20 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 10:14:20 -0700 Subject: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <4437B7D3.3050208@DakotaCom.Net> References: <20060407214057.23540.qmail@web60813.mail.yahoo.com> <4437B7D3.3050208@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200604081014200966.42C25FA4@10.0.0.252> On 4/8/2006 at 6:17 AM Don Y wrote: >But, your point is well taken -- with faster and faster >development tools, people seem to just make a change, type >'make' and "let's see if that works" (instead of *knowing* >if it SHOULD work). I think this is where a lot of bugs >creep into designs -- once it *appears* to work, they move >on to the next problem without sorting out why this >problem needed that particular fix... I used to have in my papers an IBM "Absolute Coding System" pad. What's that, you ask? Well, it looks like any other coding form, (green and white bars), but the leftmost column is marked "Address", the next column "Opcode", and the next "Operands". Yup--machine code programming! You write the digits in yourself, satisfying references, computing the next address, etc. I don't think that using the "absolute" method made me a better coder, though it did etch in my mind a collection of now-useless opcodes. I'm not sure if the non-interactive development methods produce better code. Programmers still produced terrible code back in the old days. When I finally got a CRT in my office, the thing I noticed was how QUIET it was. I never could think straight in a room full of a keypunches banging away--and when I needed to troubleshoot OS code, I'd grab my dumps and listings, leaving the system sit idle and find a lounge or conference room where I wasn't being bombarded wtih 85 dB of white noise from the equipment. In the old days, ICs were laid out by hand and a wirewrap prototype constructed. Now, a designeer can work up his design and get a fair idea of its operation using simulation software. I think design has benefitted from the newer "shortcut" methods. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 8 12:46:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 10:46:16 -0700 Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <4437EDAF.1020403@simpits.com> References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> <003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4437EDAF.1020403@simpits.com> Message-ID: <200604081046160585.42DF9A79@10.0.0.252> On 4/8/2006 at 10:06 AM Gene Buckle wrote: >Is there a way to connect a 5-1/4 drive to a regular PC via USB? Is >there a commercial product available? Yes, if you work up the circuit design yourself. I don't think there's a commercial product out there--if there is, I'd like to know about it. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Apr 8 14:16:06 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 14:16:06 -0500 Subject: Fw: dec hardware Message-ID: <003101c65b40$e9492f80$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Contact original author directly, I'm just passing it on... Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 11:45 AM Subject: dec hardware > > i have a functioning alphastation if you are interested. I had 4 but i > trashed > 3. i had the original manual and warranty card I think. let me know if you > are > interested. > > From whdawson at nidhog.net Sat Apr 8 14:22:17 2006 From: whdawson at nidhog.net (Bill Dawson) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 15:22:17 -0400 Subject: Storage Works RAID 410 for Alpha Server SWXRA-YJ. Free, pickup only Message-ID: Firstly, this is located in Washington, PA 15301. All of the 4.29gb hard drives have been removed but the caddies are present. Here's a list of the contents of this HSZ70 DEC RAID Subsystem with 2 controllers: SW300 Door Assy 70-31470-01 Rev A02 Power Module SWXBF-SD, 70-29764-01, quantity 1 Power Module BA35X-HA, 70-29764-01, quantity 6 Dual speed blower BA35X-MD, 70-29761-03, quantity 8 4.29gb "caddy and connector only" SWXD3-SE, 70-31499-02, quantity 15 32mb R/W cache module 54-22910-001 A06, 5022909-01-H01 SMS1 RAID array logic controller SWXRC-04, 70-31457-02 B02 SCSI/DSSI Controller 54-23369-01 with i960 PCMCIA Firmware card labeled SWKS HSZ40 B/C MSC PCRM Card V3.1-0 BG-QHD30-50.A01 EMU (Environmental Monitoring Unit) 54-23354-01, 70-31459-01 A05 Wide Ultra Diff. SCSI-3 6 inch cable BN21L-0B Wide Ultra Diff. SCSI-3 5 meter cable BN21K-05 Wide Ultra Diff. SCSI-3 TRI LINK SCSI-3 connector H885-AA Rev A02 Wide Ultra Diff. SCSI-3 Datamate DM2050-01-68D connector Only if there is no interest in someone taking this entire unit will I consider parting it out for spares to classiccmp list members. I would like to see this box gone ASAP but I can hold onto it a while longer if I have a guaranteed pick up date or time frame. Please address email to swxra-enter suffix here at ssS-50.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Regards, Bill Dawson From geneb at simpits.com Sat Apr 8 16:37:18 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 14:37:18 -0700 Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <200604081046160585.42DF9A79@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > >Is there a way to connect a 5-1/4 drive to a regular PC via USB? Is > >there a commercial product available? > > Yes, if you work up the circuit design yourself. I don't > think there's a commercial product out there--if there is, > I'd like to know about it. > Rats. Thanks for the reply. g. From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Apr 8 16:43:06 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 17:43:06 -0400 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <44382E6A.6050404@gmail.com> Jay West wrote: > I thought I'd post a few pictures of my IBM emulation setup. While it's > not complete, it is functioning. > > There is a PC box running unix with the hercules emulator on it. This > box has RJ45 ethernet to wireless for the home network. Also a temporary > PC monitor & keyboard (to be replaced with a rackmount 1U lcd/kbd unit > soon as I can find one cheap). Of course, it's just not the same unless > you're running a real IBM 3270 style terminal... so... the PC also has a > token ring card that is connected to a 8223 MAU via type 1 cables. Also > connected to the 8223 is an IBM 3174 establishment controller (dual > floppies, 9mb ram, token ring - config C). Then connected to the 3174 is > an IBM 3197 color display station. Yup, I know it's been done before, > but I wanted to do it too :) > > I'm still working on the code that lets my real HP2000/Access TimeShared > BASIC submit COBOL, FTN, BAL, PL/1, etc. jobs to the emulated IBM 370 > setup and get it's output and/or datasets back to the HP. Fun stuff. > > I'm also going to try and set up a printer on the 3174 at some point as > well. I had a nice rack picked out for this hercules setup, but decided > on a different rack. Next step is to get all the stuff you see in the > pics rackmounted along with 1/2 tape drive & add SCSI controller to the > herc PC. > > Anyways, pictures can be seen at : http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/ibm/ > > MOST of the pics are clear this time :) Nice setup! Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Apr 8 16:47:40 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 17:47:40 -0400 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44382F7C.5000208@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0 at BILLING>, > "Jay West" writes: > >> There is a PC box running unix with the hercules emulator on it. > > What's the "hercules emulator"? Is this emulating a Hercules graphics > card? (Doubtful, but I thought I'd ask!) Hercules emulates mainframes. >> [...] Of course, it's just not the same unless you're >> running a real IBM 3270 style terminal... so... the PC also has a token ring >> card that is connected to a 8223 MAU via type 1 cables. > > Speaking of 3270 style terminals, I picked up a 3180 terminal. I like > the spring-loaded rising pedestal on it! However, I see that it > doesn't talk normal RS-232 like most terminals, it has a coax style > connector on the back. > > Does this mean I need to get a token ring setup as you describe above > in order to get it to talk? > > If yes, what would I need to get? Assume I know nothing... because > that's accurate :). Get a mainframe. Or at least something that speaks EBCDIC. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Apr 8 16:48:59 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 17:48:59 -0400 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <44382FCB.1050209@gmail.com> jim stephens wrote: > I also have 3290s but doubt if they can be livened up. I'd *love* to have a 3290. I have 3279's now, which I love, but dislike moving. Peace... Sridhar From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Sat Apr 8 16:56:11 2006 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 17:56:11 -0400 Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4438317B.8060603@splab.cas.neu.edu> There are indeed commercial products, here are two, one is expensive, one half-expensive. I've bought similar for $30 at computer swap meets. Joe Heck http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/searchdetail.asp?T1=163+0188&dept=lch14&search=1mc01-3&child=1mc01-3 http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/searchdetail.asp?T1=163+0174&dept=lch14&search=1mc01-3&child=1mc01-3 Gene Buckle wrote: >>>Is there a way to connect a 5-1/4 drive to a regular PC via USB? Is >>>there a commercial product available? >> >>Yes, if you work up the circuit design yourself. I don't >>think there's a commercial product out there--if there is, >>I'd like to know about it. >> > > > Rats. > > Thanks for the reply. > > g. > > > From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Apr 8 16:57:40 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 17:57:40 -0400 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: <000401c65a9d$b5e9c6c0$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu><003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436F4DD.1060702@mdrconsult.com> <000401c65a9d$b5e9c6c0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <443831D4.9020905@gmail.com> Jay West wrote: > Doc wrote... >> A short word here - IBM-branded PCI token ring adapters work >> out-of-the-box in Linux, with the olympic driver. > Not what I found. "IBM Branded" could mean one of several different > families, and only certain models of certain families are supported. In > addition, I found some adapters that were supported at one time, but are > certainly not supported on more current releases (the drivers certainly > wouldn't compile as is, and needed a severe amount of handwork to bring > them up to date). Not to mention token ring support in more recent linux > kernels has been all but dropped, the token ring project hasn't been > updated in ages... etc. (2003?). NetBSD supports the TROPIC chips. It actually works fairly well. Peace... Sridhar From hauw_suwito at yahoo.com Sat Apr 8 17:09:07 2006 From: hauw_suwito at yahoo.com (Hauw Suwito) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 15:09:07 -0700 Subject: Manual for Tektronix 4209 Message-ID: <44383483.2030807@yahoo.com> I am looking user manual for Tektronix display 4209. Can someone please help Thank you -- Hauw Suwito From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sat Apr 8 17:13:19 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 00:13:19 +0200 Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... References: <4438317B.8060603@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20084@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I am sort-of also interested in a USB 5 1/4" floppy drive case. I doubt if the two shown links will actually enable the connection of a *5 1/4"* floppy drive. - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens joe heck Verzonden: za 08-04-2006 23:56 Aan: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... There are indeed commercial products, here are two, one is expensive, one half-expensive. I've bought similar for $30 at computer swap meets. Joe Heck http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/searchdetail.asp?T1=163+0188&dept=lch14&search=1mc01-3&child=1mc01-3 http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/searchdetail.asp?T1=163+0174&dept=lch14&search=1mc01-3&child=1mc01-3 Gene Buckle wrote: >>>Is there a way to connect a 5-1/4 drive to a regular PC via USB? Is >>>there a commercial product available? >> >>Yes, if you work up the circuit design yourself. I don't >>think there's a commercial product out there--if there is, >>I'd like to know about it. >> > > > Rats. > > Thanks for the reply. > > g. > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Apr 8 18:00:03 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 18:00:03 -0500 Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <4438317B.8060603@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <4438317B.8060603@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <44384073.3030000@brutman.com> joe heck wrote: > There are indeed commercial products, here are two, one is expensive, > one half-expensive. I've bought similar for $30 at computer swap meets. > > Joe Heck > > > http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/searchdetail.asp?T1=163+0188&dept=lch14&search=1mc01-3&child=1mc01-3 > > http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/searchdetail.asp?T1=163+0174&dept=lch14&search=1mc01-3&child=1mc01-3 Those look like they are designed for IDE type devices, not 5.25" floppy drives. I assumed that the OP wanted 5.25 drives on USB. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 8 19:13:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 17:13:54 -0700 Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <44384073.3030000@brutman.com> References: <4438317B.8060603@splab.cas.neu.edu> <44384073.3030000@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200604081713540379.44427AB9@10.0.0.252> On 4/8/2006 at 6:00 PM Michael B. Brutman wrote: >Those look like they are designed for IDE type devices, not 5.25" floppy >drives. I assumed that the OP wanted 5.25 drives on USB. That's what I gathered. Another possibility is a Microsolutions Backpack parallel port floppy. I can just about guarantee that it requires a legacy parallel port at the very minimum; from what I know of the drive (which is qutie a bit), a USB-to-parallel port adapter won't work. When I originally spoke with the folks at Microsolutions, they were unwilling to release any programming information about the drive. I wsa forced to reverse-engineer their drivers to get support for things like CP/M single-density diskettes, etc. Basically, their box is an NS 8477 FDC with a microcontroller and about 8K of RAM. You can get a 3.5" backpack floppy and use it (with cable adapter) on a 5.25" drive--I believe I even noticed that they bring the selects out for two drives, so you could even use it with a combo drive. I've got an older Rancho Technology Floppy-to-parallel board. I don't have programming information for it, but that might be another possibility. Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Sat Apr 8 19:25:58 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 20:25:58 -0400 Subject: A VCF East update Message-ID: <001701c65b6c$2c3f7670$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> One exhibitor had to pull out, so there is room if anyone still wants it. Contact me off-list. - Evan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Apr 8 19:25:01 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 20:25:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <200604081046160585.42DF9A79@10.0.0.252> References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> <003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4437EDAF.1020403@simpits.com> <200604081046160585.42DF9A79@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200604090027.UAA26353@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Is there a way to connect a 5-1/4 drive to a regular PC via USB? Is >> there a commercial product available? > Yes, if you work up the circuit design yourself. I don't think > there's a commercial product out there--if there is, I'd like to know > about it. Surely this depends on what the 5?" drive's interface is? I'm sure I've seen ads for interface boxes for IDE, and probably SCSI, that would require at most a transplant of the adapter into a 5?" case, if the drive you want to use has the matching interface. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Apr 8 19:43:09 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 17:43:09 -0700 Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <200604090027.UAA26353@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> <003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4437EDAF.1020403@simpits.com> <200604081046160585.42DF9A79@10.0.0.252> <200604090027.UAA26353@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4438589D.1040606@DakotaCom.Net> der Mouse wrote: >>> Is there a way to connect a 5-1/4 drive to a regular PC via USB? Is >>> there a commercial product available? >> Yes, if you work up the circuit design yourself. I don't think >> there's a commercial product out there--if there is, I'd like to know >> about it. > > Surely this depends on what the 5?" drive's interface is? I'm sure > I've seen ads for interface boxes for IDE, and probably SCSI, that > would require at most a transplant of the adapter into a 5?" case, if > the drive you want to use has the matching interface. Exactly. I have a USB<->IDE i/f here that I use for machines that *don't* have SCSI adapters (in which case, I just use an external SCSI drive) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 8 19:46:45 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 17:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <4438589D.1040606@DakotaCom.Net> References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> <003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4437EDAF.1020403@simpits.com> <200604081046160585.42DF9A79@10.0.0.252> <200604090027.UAA26353@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4438589D.1040606@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <20060408174533.H61746@shell.lmi.net> der Mouse wrote: > Surely this depends on what the 5?" drive's interface is? I'm sure > I've seen ads for interface boxes for IDE, and probably SCSI, that > would require at most a transplant of the adapter into a 5?" case, if > the drive you want to use has the matching interface. Have you seen a 5.25" (or 8") floppy drive lately with an IDE or SCSI interface? From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Apr 8 19:56:44 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 17:56:44 -0700 Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <20060408174533.H61746@shell.lmi.net> References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> <003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4437EDAF.1020403@simpits.com> <200604081046160585.42DF9A79@10.0.0.252> <200604090027.UAA26353@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4438589D.1040606@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408174533.H61746@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <44385BCC.70106@DakotaCom.Net> Fred Cisin wrote: > der Mouse wrote: >> Surely this depends on what the 5?" drive's interface is? I'm sure >> I've seen ads for interface boxes for IDE, and probably SCSI, that >> would require at most a transplant of the adapter into a 5?" case, if >> the drive you want to use has the matching interface. > > Have you seen a 5.25" (or 8") floppy drive lately with an IDE or SCSI > interface? Aren't SPARC floppies SCSI (though not 5 or 8")? From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Apr 8 19:50:10 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 20:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <20060408174533.H61746@shell.lmi.net> References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> <003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4437EDAF.1020403@simpits.com> <200604081046160585.42DF9A79@10.0.0.252> <200604090027.UAA26353@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4438589D.1040606@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408174533.H61746@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200604090057.UAA26534@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Surely this depends on what the 5?" drive's interface is? I'm sure >> I've seen ads for interface boxes for IDE, and probably SCSI, that >> would require at most a transplant of the adapter into a 5?" case, >> if the drive you want to use has the matching interface. > Have you seen a 5.25" (or 8") floppy drive lately with an IDE or SCSI > interface? In retrospect, this was me being careless about sizes. I was confusing 3?"-vs-5?" (floppy size) with 4"-vs-5?" (drive mounting widths). I did look for an indication of what kind of drive it was (floppy, fixed disk, CD, etc) but, because I'd (mis)read the 5?" as indicating drive width, failed to notice that that size alone pegged it as a floppy. Mea culpa. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Apr 8 20:04:26 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 21:04:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <44385BCC.70106@DakotaCom.Net> References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> <003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4437EDAF.1020403@simpits.com> <200604081046160585.42DF9A79@10.0.0.252> <200604090027.UAA26353@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4438589D.1040606@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408174533.H61746@shell.lmi.net> <44385BCC.70106@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200604090110.VAA26622@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Have you seen a 5.25" (or 8") floppy drive lately with an IDE or >> SCSI interface? > Aren't SPARC floppies SCSI (though not 5 or 8")? Not in my experience. Floppy-equipped SPARCs I've seen have a separate floppy controller chip to which the floppy is connected, much like a peecee in that one respect. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 8 20:11:35 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 18:11:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <44385BCC.70106@DakotaCom.Net> References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> <003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4437EDAF.1020403@simpits.com> <200604081046160585.42DF9A79@10.0.0.252> <200604090027.UAA26353@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4438589D.1040606@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408174533.H61746@shell.lmi.net> <44385BCC.70106@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <20060408180416.K61746@shell.lmi.net> > > Have you seen a 5.25" (or 8") floppy drive lately with an IDE or SCSI > > interface? On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Don Y wrote: > Aren't SPARC floppies SCSI (though not 5 or 8")? There are lots of USB 3.5" 1.4M drives. There are several SCSI 3.5" drives (most Floptical (usually SCSI) drives can do 1.4M) But I don't know of any of those that can be easily modified to support 5.25" or 8" drives. Howzbout: take a small PC, with either USB or SCSI, with appropriate drives, and use the PC itself as a slave device controller. I don't recall the name of it, but there was a small PC with a SCSI port and a 5.25" drive, using the PC as a slave device controller, that was MARKETED as a "DRIVE" that could "let Macs read PC and CP/M diskettes". By THAT definition, I've seen lots of RS232 floppy drives :-) From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Apr 8 20:35:38 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 20:35:38 -0500 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING><4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> <44382FCB.1050209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006001c65b75$e8810a70$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > jim stephens wrote: >> I also have 3290s but doubt if they can be livened up. > to which Sridhar replied... > I'd *love* to have a 3290. I have 3279's now, which I love, but dislike > moving. Wow, I'd love to have ANY of those. I'm looking for a 3278 or 3279, and a 3290 :) Jay From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Apr 8 20:51:23 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 18:51:23 -0700 Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <20060408180416.K61746@shell.lmi.net> References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> <003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4437EDAF.1020403@simpits.com> <200604081046160585.42DF9A79@10.0.0.252> <200604090027.UAA26353@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4438589D.1040606@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408174533.H61746@shell.lmi.net> <44385BCC.70106@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408180416.K61746@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4438689B.80400@DakotaCom.Net> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Have you seen a 5.25" (or 8") floppy drive lately with an IDE or SCSI >>> interface? > > On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Don Y wrote: >> Aren't SPARC floppies SCSI (though not 5 or 8")? > > There are lots of USB 3.5" 1.4M drives. > There are several SCSI 3.5" drives (most Floptical (usually SCSI) drives > can do 1.4M) > But I don't know of any of those that can be easily modified to support > 5.25" or 8" drives. If they use a conventional floppy within, the 5" and 3.5" use nearly identical signals. Problem would be what assumptions the firmware therein makes... > Howzbout: > take a small PC, with either USB or SCSI, with appropriate drives, and use > the PC itself as a slave device controller. Or, just write your media on the PC and skip the interface altogether :> (that's how I handle 8") > I don't recall the name of it, but there was a small PC with a SCSI port > and a 5.25" drive, using the PC as a slave device controller, that was > MARKETED as a "DRIVE" that could "let Macs read PC and CP/M diskettes". > By THAT definition, I've seen lots of RS232 floppy drives :-) You can *buy* a SCSI<->floppy interface if you really want to spend a lot of money on that. It just seems like a huge waste of $$$ (though I am sure there are cases where it might be desirable/needed) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 8 21:04:31 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 19:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <4438689B.80400@DakotaCom.Net> References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> <003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4437EDAF.1020403@simpits.com> <200604081046160585.42DF9A79@10.0.0.252> <200604090027.UAA26353@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4438589D.1040606@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408174533.H61746@shell.lmi.net> <44385BCC.70106@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408180416.K61746@shell.lmi.net> <4438689B.80400@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <20060408185710.Y61746@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Don Y wrote: > > There are lots of USB 3.5" 1.4M drives. > > There are several SCSI 3.5" drives (most Floptical (usually SCSI) drives > > can do 1.4M) > > But I don't know of any of those that can be easily modified to support > > 5.25" or 8" drives. > > If they use a conventional floppy within, the 5" and 3.5" use > nearly identical signals. I don't know of ANY USB nor SCSI 3.5" drives that DO use a "conventional" floppy within. The common USB drives do NOT convert USB to anything even vaguely resembling SA400. > Problem would be what assumptions > the firmware therein makes... Let's solve the hardware problem first, THEN worry about the firmware. > > Howzbout: > > take a small PC, with either USB or SCSI, with appropriate drives, and use > > the PC itself as a slave device controller. > Or, just write your media on the PC and skip the interface altogether > :> (that's how I handle 8") The original requestor asked about an external USB or SCSI 5.25". That MIGHT mean that he wants to hang the external drive on something not completely PC compatible (such as a Mac, or a Dell laptop) > You can *buy* a SCSI<->floppy interface if you really want to spend > a lot of money on that. It just seems like a huge waste of $$$ > (though I am sure there are cases where it might be desirable/needed) I've had SCSI <-> ST506/412. Do you know a source for a SCSI <-> SA400/800 ? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 8 21:51:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 19:51:40 -0700 Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <20060408185710.Y61746@shell.lmi.net> References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> <003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4437EDAF.1020403@simpits.com> <200604081046160585.42DF9A79@10.0.0.252> <200604090027.UAA26353@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4438589D.1040606@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408174533.H61746@shell.lmi.net> <44385BCC.70106@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408180416.K61746@shell.lmi.net> <4438689B.80400@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408185710.Y61746@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200604081951400931.44D2EC6D@10.0.0.252> Believe it or not, Teac DID list a 5.25" SCSI drive in its catalog. I could dig for it, but I doubt that many were made. I don't know what the OP wanted to do with the 5.25" (let's assume) floppy. But most SCSI floppies (like the FD-55S) are dumb as a stump. They have sector addressing, etc. all nicely hardwired in. On most, you can change the block size, but that's it. That's certainly the case with my old Brier Tech. 20 MB SCSI floppy/floptical. It'd be okay for DOS/*nix stuff, but tough luck on those Osborne I floppies. Maybe the OP was talking about a 5.25" MFM or ESDI drive? OMTI made some cards that could get you to SCSI from those (as well as floppy to SCSI). But that was a long time ago (I've got a couple of those controllers) and the SCSI spoken was the very early Apple Mac variety. I used one with some glue to provide an Atari 540ST with an MFM hard drive via the ACSI "almost SCSI" interface long ago. Cheers, Chuck From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sat Apr 8 21:52:47 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 22:52:47 -0400 Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <20060408185710.Y61746@shell.lmi.net> References: <4438689B.80400@DakotaCom.Net> <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> <003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4437EDAF.1020403@simpits.com> <200604081046160585.42DF9A79@10.0.0.252> <200604090027.UAA26353@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4438589D.1040606@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408174533.H61746@shell.lmi.net> <44385BCC.70106@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408180416.K61746@shell.lmi.net> <4438689B.80400@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060408223639.04b92ae0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin may have mentioned these words: >I don't know of ANY USB nor SCSI 3.5" drives that DO use a "conventional" >floppy within. what about the DEC SCSI bridgeboard for (at least) the VaxStation/VaxServer 3100 series machines? I'm *almost* positive that it takes a standard (1.44IBMeg) 3.5" floppy drive - now whether that can be kludged to handle a 5.25" drive, I can't say - I don't know if the bridgeboard *expects* an 1.44IBMeg drive at those datarates... >The common USB drives do NOT convert USB to anything even >vaguely resembling SA400. The more I've been getting back into my CoCo shiznit, I've been wondering about the Toshiba PCMCIA floppy drive - Anyone know if that uses a "normal" floppy chipset that could be kluged to handle a 5.25" drive? I've been diddling with DriveWire for the CoCo, running it thru a USB->RS232 adapter (my Fujitsu Lifebook doesn't have normal serial/parallel/floppy ports - heck, even the replaceable internal Floppy drive is USB... (tho if it wasn't, I'd assume it would be IDE instead of Floppy, as that would still save them a bit on the chipset to not implement that separately...) Google stumbled me across this: http://www.galaxystor.com/SCSI_Floppy_Drive.htm Take this with a grain of salt, and prolly a fat pocketbook, but the PDF shows a picture of the circuit and it has a 34-pin connector... and the PDF does mention something about 1.2IBMeg... Ah well, maybe the truth *is* out there... ;-) [[ This from a guy who's only watched 2 episodes of the X-files...]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 8 21:56:44 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 19:56:44 -0700 Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... Message-ID: <7BA89E72-659B-48C8-BEB9-26182AB995C7@bitsavers.org> > I've had SCSI <-> ST506/412. > Do you know a source for a SCSI <-> SA400/800 ? SMS OMTI 5200 (412 + floppy) SMS OMTI 5400 (412 + QIC02 + floppy) OMTI_5x00.pdf under sms on bitsavers They have a NEC 765 floppy controller on them. also (not on bitsavers yet) OMTI 7000 series From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 8 21:59:12 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 19:59:12 -0700 Subject: scsi 5" floppies Message-ID: <8E4317C6-0184-43F1-ADAD-D07486ABEEFF@bitsavers.org> there is also the daynafile http://users.eastlink.ca/~pspencer/mac/dayna/dayna.html From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Apr 8 22:06:19 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 20:06:19 -0700 Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <20060408185710.Y61746@shell.lmi.net> References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> <003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4437EDAF.1020403@simpits.com> <200604081046160585.42DF9A79@10.0.0.252> <200604090027.UAA26353@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4438589D.1040606@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408174533.H61746@shell.lmi.net> <44385BCC.70106@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408180416.K61746@shell.lmi.net> <4438689B.80400@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408185710.Y61746@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <44387A2B.9020507@DakotaCom.Net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Don Y wrote: >>> There are lots of USB 3.5" 1.4M drives. >>> There are several SCSI 3.5" drives (most Floptical (usually SCSI) drives >>> can do 1.4M) >>> But I don't know of any of those that can be easily modified to support >>> 5.25" or 8" drives. >> If they use a conventional floppy within, the 5" and 3.5" use >> nearly identical signals. > > I don't know of ANY USB nor SCSI 3.5" drives that DO use a "conventional" > floppy within. I don't know. I only use a USB *disk* -- and even then, only if I don't have a SCSI HA in the machine I am moving to/from. > The common USB drives do NOT convert USB to anything even > vaguely resembling SA400. > >> Problem would be what assumptions >> the firmware therein makes... > > Let's solve the hardware problem first, THEN worry about the firmware. > >>> Howzbout: >>> take a small PC, with either USB or SCSI, with appropriate drives, and use >>> the PC itself as a slave device controller. >> Or, just write your media on the PC and skip the interface altogether >> :> (that's how I handle 8") > > The original requestor asked about an external USB or SCSI 5.25". > That MIGHT mean that he wants to hang the external drive on something > not completely PC compatible (such as a Mac, or a Dell laptop) And I was suggesting handling the media on another machine that *can* handle it. I don't have DLT's or MO's on all my machines -- when I need to access this type of medium, I go to a machine that *has*! :-/ >> You can *buy* a SCSI<->floppy interface if you really want to spend >> a lot of money on that. It just seems like a huge waste of $$$ >> (though I am sure there are cases where it might be desirable/needed) > > I've had SCSI <-> ST506/412. > Do you know a source for a SCSI <-> SA400/800 ? *Some* workstation (I thought it was SPARCs) had SCSI floppies. I also have a design for a SCSI<->4 floppy controller that I did >15 years ago. I can try to dig up the schematics and sources for it. But, I sspect many of the componentss that it used are no longer available (?). I know getting the 647180's as "engineering samples" was a real problem; and I am not sure the 5380 (5830?) is even manufactured any more... I was tickled that the PCB was exactly the size of a 5" floppy (though it was designed for 8" media originally -- a few extra wires in the diskette interface cable and support for the "door lock", IIRC) By far, the easiest thing to do would be a USB<->floppy nowadays... microcontroller + floppy controller/COMBO (unless you want to pinch pennies and do an Apple style floppy controller implemented in software...) I'll see if I can find my drawing set and any paperwork (contractual obligations) governing it. --don From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 8 22:07:04 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 20:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: scsi 5" floppies In-Reply-To: <8E4317C6-0184-43F1-ADAD-D07486ABEEFF@bitsavers.org> References: <8E4317C6-0184-43F1-ADAD-D07486ABEEFF@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20060408200542.L61746@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Al Kossow wrote: > there is also the daynafile > http://users.eastlink.ca/~pspencer/mac/dayna/dayna.html On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Fred Cisin wrote: > Howzbout: > take a small PC, with either USB or SCSI, with appropriate drives, and use > the PC itself as a slave device controller. > I don't recall the name of it, but there was a small PC with a SCSI port > and a 5.25" drive, using the PC as a slave device controller, that was > MARKETED as a "DRIVE" that could "let Macs read PC and CP/M diskettes". > By THAT definition, I've seen lots of RS232 floppy drives :-) Thanks, I think that that was the one From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 8 23:02:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 21:02:01 -0700 Subject: scsi 5" floppies In-Reply-To: <20060408200542.L61746@shell.lmi.net> References: <8E4317C6-0184-43F1-ADAD-D07486ABEEFF@bitsavers.org> <20060408200542.L61746@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200604082102010936.45135432@10.0.0.252> At the expense of sounding like an idiot, why not just buy/steal/beg a Teac FD-235HS and use the controller board from it to connect to a garden-variety 5.25" floppy? http://www.teac.com/DSPD/support/floppy_drives/id_hs_models.htm Cheers, Chuck From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sun Apr 9 01:13:46 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 23:13:46 -0700 Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <44387A2B.9020507@DakotaCom.Net> References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <200604081046160585.42DF9A79@10.0.0.252> <200604090027.UAA26353@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4438589D.1040606@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408174533.H61746@shell.lmi.net> <44385BCC.70106@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408180416.K61746@shell.lmi.net> <4438689B.80400@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408185710.Y61746@shell.lmi.net> <44387A2B.9020507@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: I have been selling SCSI to Floppy controllers on epay over the last couple of years. I think I have one left. $10 shipped USA, sealed bag. It was originally set up for 5 1/4 but I am sure useful with 3 1/2s. They were going in the BIIN conputer which was a joint project of intel and Siemens in the late 1980s. I got a bunch when we purchased their left over inventory in the early 1990s. Based on the NCR chip. Here is a reference to my last one I sold on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=8758879883 Sale number 8758879883 -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 8 18:58:29 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 00:58:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <20060408185710.Y61746@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 8, 6 07:04:31 pm Message-ID: > > I've had SCSI <-> ST506/412. > Do you know a source for a SCSI <-> SA400/800 ? Some varients of the Omti 5000 boards had a floppy controller. There was one that was SCSI to ST412 _and_ floppy, one that also had a QIC02 interface. These boards were used in the PERQ 3a (AGW3300), and in Torch XXX/Quad-X machines with ST412 hard drives. Torch workstations with SCSI hard drives had a thing called a Manta board. This was a SCSI-floppy controller. Don't ask me where to find a spare one, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 8 19:01:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 01:01:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: scsi 5" floppies In-Reply-To: <20060408200542.L61746@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 8, 6 08:07:04 pm Message-ID: > > By THAT definition, I've seen lots of RS232 floppy drives :-) There was a thing called a 'Drive 95' (I think from Corvalis Micro Technologies, but I might have misrememebred that part). It wa a box contain ing a 3.5" drive and a microntorller board with an RS232 port. Firmaware on the microntroller made it acts as a kermit server. It was designed for use with the HP95LX (hence the name), which had kermit in ROM. -tony From geneb at simpits.com Sun Apr 9 12:18:14 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 10:18:14 -0700 Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <4438317B.8060603@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <4438317B.8060603@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <443941D6.1030806@simpits.com> joe heck wrote: > There are indeed commercial products, here are two, one is expensive, > one half-expensive. I've bought similar for $30 at computer swap meets. > > Joe Heck I wasn't clear Joe, sorry. I was referring to a 5-1/4" floppy drive not an IDE device. tnx. g. From hachti at hachti.de Sun Apr 9 12:23:00 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 19:23:00 +0200 Subject: Honeywell 7-track tape drive Message-ID: <443942F4.9010705@hachti.de> Hello folks! Yesterday I finally picked up my new Honeywell 4210 tape drive. That's a big and fat 1/2" 200/556bpi 7-track magtape designed for use with Honeywell computers (I have a series 16 controller for it). Pictures and information can be found on my h316 website http://h316.hachti.de --> Stuff --> Tape Drive I NEED some information and help. I want to get in touch with everybody who ever operated, maintained or even constructed such devices. Looking forward to massive electronics reconstruction because of missing important parts from the machine. Waiting for feedback..... thanks! Regards, Philipp :-) From geneb at simpits.com Sun Apr 9 12:26:50 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 10:26:50 -0700 Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <200604081951400931.44D2EC6D@10.0.0.252> References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> <003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4437EDAF.1020403@simpits.com> <200604081046160585.42DF9A79@10.0.0.252> <200604090027.UAA26353@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4438589D.1040606@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408174533.H61746@shell.lmi.net> <44385BCC.70106@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408180416.K61746@shell.lmi.net> <4438689B.80400@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408185710.Y61746@shell.lmi.net> <200604081951400931.44D2EC6D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <443943DA.3060903@simpits.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Believe it or not, Teac DID list a 5.25" SCSI drive in its catalog. I > could dig for it, but I doubt that many were made. > > I don't know what the OP wanted to do with the 5.25" (let's assume) floppy. > But most SCSI floppies (like the FD-55S) are dumb as a stump. They have > sector addressing, etc. all nicely hardwired in. On most, you can change > the block size, but that's it. That's certainly the case with my old Brier > Tech. 20 MB SCSI floppy/floptical. It'd be okay for DOS/*nix stuff, but > tough luck on those Osborne I floppies. I have to apologize to you all, I wasn't specific enough. The discussion has been a great read though. :) I've got a PC with a limited space case. They didn't even include room for a 3-1/2" floppy drive in it. I'd like to be able to read DOS and non-native format floppy disks with this machine as part of doing an update to the retroarchive.org site. Instead of building a second machine, I'd like to be able to find a way to interface a Teac FD-55GFR via USB. Barring that, I'd like to know where I can find a desktop ATX form factor case that's got bays deep enough for a standard sized floppy drive. Thanks all! g. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 9 13:03:23 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 11:03:23 -0700 Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... In-Reply-To: <443943DA.3060903@simpits.com> References: <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4436DA40.5010009@msm.umr.edu> <003301c65a91$a92638d0$6800a8c0@BILLING> <4437EDAF.1020403@simpits.com> <200604081046160585.42DF9A79@10.0.0.252> <200604090027.UAA26353@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4438589D.1040606@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408174533.H61746@shell.lmi.net> <44385BCC.70106@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408180416.K61746@shell.lmi.net> <4438689B.80400@DakotaCom.Net> <20060408185710.Y61746@shell.lmi.net> <200604081951400931.44D2EC6D@10.0.0.252> <443943DA.3060903@simpits.com> Message-ID: <200604091103230131.48159F77@10.0.0.252> On 4/9/2006 at 10:26 AM Gene Buckle wrote: Forget USB (and SCSI) for non-native formats. Both types assume a lot about the diskette format, including sector size, numbering and numbers of sectors per track. >Barring that, I'd like to know where I can find a desktop ATX form >factor case that's got bays deep enough for a standard sized floppy drive. That shouldn't be hard at all. Any box that will hold two CD-ROM drives will hold a standard half-height floppy. If what you have is a full-height floppy, you may need to get creative with your tools to get one to fit in 2 half-height slots. But it can be done. Personally, what I'd do is find an older 386--Pentium minitower box. Drop a network card in it and use it to do your data transfers. You don't need any kind of speed for diskette handling. The older systems with through-hole IC mounting on the PCBs tend to be very reliable. Cheers, Chuck From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Apr 8 06:22:05 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 13:22:05 +0200 Subject: DEC Manuals available In-Reply-To: <1144184863.26531.107.camel@fortran.babel> References: <7CF852977364B54EB8E2B9D075745D357D0B@kenmsg40.us.schp.com> <1144184863.26531.107.camel@fortran.babel> Message-ID: <1144495325.26531.242.camel@fortran.babel> On Tue, 2006-04-04 at 23:07 +0200, Tore S Bekkedal wrote: > On Thu, 2006-03-23 at 17:02 -0500, Rogers, Stanley wrote: > > Do you know if there is a service manual for the DEC LA-210 ?? I need > > one badly > Hey, I don't know if you received a reply for this. > The Bitsavers online archive has a print set for all the boards. whoops, that was of course meant to be off-list, sorry! -toresbe :) From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Fri Apr 7 18:47:04 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2006 01:47:04 +0200 Subject: register-impoverished childhoods was Re: Z80 TRAP and CP/M In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1144453625.26531.240.camel@fortran.babel> On Thu, 2006-04-06 at 00:18 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > E.g., if you are writing code for a 68xx, you have little choice > > > but to do everything in memory addressing. > > > > Or a 6502. I don't know what to *do* with all the other registers on > > other architectures. ^_^;; > > For the exact opposite, look at the PERQ 1a at the microcode level. 256 > general-purpose registers (each 20 bits wide). There's even an 8 bit > register which can be used to select a particular register -- that is > you have a sort of indirect addressing to the registers. The NORD-10 had 160 - ten levels of 16 each. I've described the machine on a wikipedia page, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NORD-10 I hope to create more articles, including the NORD-1, and the NORD-500 series. -toresbe :) From eric at rothfus.com Sun Apr 9 17:34:36 2006 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 17:34:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Looking for an Altair 88-DCDD Manual Scan Message-ID: <1144612693@rothfus.com> I have a copy of the manual on its way to me, (thanks Jack!) but in the mean-time does anyone have a PDF of the Altair 88-DCDD floppy disk manual? In particular, I'm looking for the section regarding data encoding - format of the data on the disk itself. Probably some form of FM, but with hard-sectors. I've looked everywhere, but for some reason, most Altair doc sites don't have the DCDD scan. Yup, the Altair is the next target for the SVD. (http://www.theSVD.com). Eric From brian at quarterbyte.com Sun Apr 9 18:09:47 2006 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 16:09:47 -0700 Subject: punched card equipment trove Message-ID: <443931CB.23566.FA420A@brian.quarterbyte.com> If you haven't seen this yet, there is an amazing lot of unit record equipment up on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8792244955 It should go to a museum. (The Computer History Museum has all of these items already but someone else...) Heck, it IS a museum. The 2821 controller is a particularly useful if you want to hook up the 2540 card read/punch and a 1403 printer to your parallel channel mainframe :) The seller has some other mainframe gear up. All of the prices at least 5 times too high, but maybe will be negotiable after the lots close without a bid? If anyone is interested in a part of this, perhaps we could put together some group proposition. I'd be willing to discuss it anyway. Write off-list if interested Brian From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Apr 9 18:17:48 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 19:17:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: punched card equipment trove In-Reply-To: <443931CB.23566.FA420A@brian.quarterbyte.com> References: <443931CB.23566.FA420A@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Apr 2006, Brian Knittel wrote: > The seller has some other mainframe gear up. All of the prices > at least 5 times too high, but maybe will be negotiable after the > lots close without a bid? > > If anyone is interested in a part of this, perhaps we could put > together some group proposition. I'd be willing to discuss it anyway. > Write off-list if interested I'm interested in one of the 129 card punch units, and could drive down from central PA to pick it up. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From trs-80 at cableone.net Sun Apr 9 18:33:03 2006 From: trs-80 at cableone.net (Steve Phipps) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 18:33:03 -0500 Subject: WTB Compaq Portable 3 Message-ID: <002701c65c2d$f2d66b60$8a02a8c0@steve6isvpk5vy> Looking for a nice working Compaq Portable 3 (the model with the flat plasma display). Included system disks and manuals would be a plus. Would like to use it to run DOS emulators and do file / disk transfers to my other old machines. Might consider other "luggable" models with 5.25" drives if the price is right. If you have one available, please E-mail me off list at kawninja at cableone.net with price and shipping cost to my zip 64801. Thank you, Steve Phipps kawninja at cableone.net From trs-80 at cableone.net Sun Apr 9 18:36:15 2006 From: trs-80 at cableone.net (Steve Phipps) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 18:36:15 -0500 Subject: Cracking open a Compudyne case Message-ID: <003001c65c2e$652125c0$8a02a8c0@steve6isvpk5vy> Just bought a Compudyne 386 desktop at the thrift store and need help opening the all plastic case. The case has two latches at the top rear corners of the case and a case screw in between the latches. Spring the latches and remove the screw and the top back part of the case comes loose, but it binds in the middle to front of the case and won't remove. Any ideas? Thanks, Steve Phipps trs-80 at cableone.net From rcini at optonline.net Sun Apr 9 18:55:15 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2006 19:55:15 -0400 Subject: Looking for an Altair 88-DCDD Manual Scan In-Reply-To: <1144612693@rothfus.com> Message-ID: <004501c65c31$0c8c9310$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Eric: I have a copy in PDF form. I'll upload it to my Web site tonight and you can grab it from there. http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/Altair32links.htm Let me know if it has what you're looking for. I would love a semi-reliable disk system for my IMSAI to replace the 8" drives I have. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric J. Rothfus Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 6:35 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Looking for an Altair 88-DCDD Manual Scan I have a copy of the manual on its way to me, (thanks Jack!) but in the mean-time does anyone have a PDF of the Altair 88-DCDD floppy disk manual? In particular, I'm looking for the section regarding data encoding - format of the data on the disk itself. Probably some form of FM, but with hard-sectors. I've looked everywhere, but for some reason, most Altair doc sites don't have the DCDD scan. Yup, the Altair is the next target for the SVD. (http://www.theSVD.com). Eric From Useddec at aol.com Sun Apr 9 20:01:44 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 21:01:44 EDT Subject: punched card equipment trove Message-ID: <1f2.1d73efaa.316b0878@aol.com> I have a few card readers and paper tape readers if anyone is interested. Paul From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Apr 9 20:17:56 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 18:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: scsi 5" floppies In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Apr 9, 6 01:01:20 am" Message-ID: <200604100117.k3A1Hu6Q014918@floodgap.com> > There was a thing called a 'Drive 95' (I think from Corvalis Micro > Technologies, but I might have misrememebred that part). It wa a box > contain ing a 3.5" drive and a microntorller board with an RS232 port. > Firmaware on the microntroller made it acts as a kermit server. It was > designed for use with the HP95LX (hence the name), which had kermit in ROM. Fascinating! I'd love one of those. *looks at two 95LXes beside him on the workbench* -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I do not know myself, and God forbid that I should. -- J. W. von Goethe ---- From eric at rothfus.com Sun Apr 9 20:26:41 2006 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 20:26:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Looking for an Altair 88-DCDD Manual Scan In-Reply-To: <004501c65c31$0c8c9310$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> (rcini@optonline.net) References: <004501c65c31$0c8c9310$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <1144622076@rothfus.com> > I have a copy in PDF form. I'll upload it to my Web site tonight and > you can grab it from there. Thanks Rich! From allain at panix.com Sun Apr 9 20:47:40 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 21:47:40 -0400 Subject: Cracking open a Compudyne case References: <003001c65c2e$652125c0$8a02a8c0@steve6isvpk5vy> Message-ID: <01ba01c65c40$d01f1c80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > The case has two latches ... and won't remove. Any ideas? Not without photographs in this case. John A. From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Apr 9 22:15:47 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 23:15:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: punched card equipment trove In-Reply-To: <1f2.1d73efaa.316b0878@aol.com> Message-ID: > I have a few card readers and paper tape readers if anyone is interested. Like what? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From Useddec at aol.com Sun Apr 9 23:56:50 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 00:56:50 EDT Subject: punched card equipment trove Message-ID: <2fa.2ca83de.316b3f92@aol.com> Hi William, I have a Documation M300 and M600, Both might say DEC CR11. Also some Decitek paper tape readers that seem to be RS232. Might be able to scrape up a PC05. I know where there were some IBM 026s, but not sure if they are still there. And a few tons of DEC stuff. Thanks, Paul From Useddec at aol.com Mon Apr 10 00:03:17 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 01:03:17 EDT Subject: punched card equipment trove Message-ID: <22d.9b58fef.316b4115@aol.com> Sorry, that should have been off list. From nico at farumdata.dk Mon Apr 10 00:48:38 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 07:48:38 +0200 Subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive... References: Message-ID: <001f01c65c62$6a213770$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Tony Duell" > > Some varients of the Omti 5000 boards had a floppy controller. There was > one that was SCSI to ST412 _and_ floppy, one that also had a QIC02 interface. There is also the OMTI 7250, which is SCSI to floppies (4!) and some harddrive (I cant remember which ones from the top of my head). It came together with an OMTI 512, which is 8-bit IDE. Sadly enough, I dont have the foggiest idea regarding the drivers, I got them delivered with a complete set of software > These boards were used in the PERQ 3a (AGW3300), and in Torch XXX/Quad-X > machines with ST412 hard drives. The 512/7250 combination was used in EMS' (Belgium) media conversion systems Nico From gkaufman at the-planet.org Mon Apr 10 12:16:04 2006 From: gkaufman at the-planet.org (Gary E Kaufman) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 13:16:04 -0400 Subject: Need a few floppy drives... In-Reply-To: <200604101700.k3AH06S9027048@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Anyone have a few drives to sell/swap? I'm restoring a few old systems and have come up short! I could use: 1 or 2 5.25" full height DSDD drives 1 or 2 5.25" full height SSDD drives a single Shugart 801R a few extra 50 wire cables for 8" floppy drives - Gary From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 10 12:20:45 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:20:45 -0600 Subject: ASR-33 (was: Programmer's conundrums) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 07 Apr 2006 14:40:56 -0700. <20060407214057.23540.qmail@web60813.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <20060407214057.23540.qmail at web60813.mail.yahoo.com>, Tom Watson writes: > Everyone should keep an ASR33 floating around just to show others. I get the impression that ASR-33s don't become available too often anymore and when they do become available, people attack them like sharks in a pool of chum :-). On the other hand, ASR-43s seem to go for $15. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 10 12:24:55 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:24:55 -0600 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 08 Apr 2006 17:47:40 -0400. <44382F7C.5000208@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <44382F7C.5000208 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > > Speaking of 3270 style terminals, I picked up a 3180 terminal. [...] > > > > Does this mean I need to get a token ring setup as you describe above > > in order to get it to talk? > > > > If yes, what would I need to get? Assume I know nothing... because > > that's accurate :). > > Get a mainframe. Or at least something that speaks EBCDIC. That's kinda overkill don't ya think? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From blairrya at msu.edu Mon Apr 10 12:31:51 2006 From: blairrya at msu.edu (Ryan Blair) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 13:31:51 -0400 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: References: <44382F7C.5000208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060410133151.7c27b3f5.blairrya@msu.edu> On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:24:55 -0600 Richard wrote: > > Get a mainframe. Or at least something that speaks EBCDIC. > > That's kinda overkill don't ya think? Not for a terminal that communicates in streams of EBCDIC ... -Ryan From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Apr 10 12:35:21 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 13:35:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ASR-33 (was: Programmer's conundrums) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Everyone should keep an ASR33 floating around just to show others. Everyone should keep an ASR 33 around to show others why ASR 35s are better. One of these days I am going to "trade-up" myself. > I get the impression that ASR-33s don't become available too often > anymore and when they do become available, people attack them like > sharks in a pool of chum :-). I have one or two I could part with. I am not sure how well they run. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 12:35:48 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 13:35:48 -0400 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: <20060410133151.7c27b3f5.blairrya@msu.edu> References: <44382F7C.5000208@gmail.com> <20060410133151.7c27b3f5.blairrya@msu.edu> Message-ID: <443A9774.5090206@gmail.com> Ryan Blair wrote: > On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:24:55 -0600 > Richard wrote: > >>> Get a mainframe. Or at least something that speaks EBCDIC. >> That's kinda overkill don't ya think? > > Not for a terminal that communicates in streams of EBCDIC ... ...over SNA, no less. Peace... Sridhar From drb at msu.edu Mon Apr 10 12:40:24 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 13:40:24 -0400 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:24:55 MDT.) References: Message-ID: <200604101740.k3AHeOsc025392@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > > Does this mean I need to get a token ring setup as you describe above > > > in order to get it to talk? It's not token ring. > > > If yes, what would I need to get? Assume I know nothing... because > > > that's accurate :). > > > > Get a mainframe. Or at least something that speaks EBCDIC. > > That's kinda overkill don't ya think? Ok, perhaps an S/36? Or a P/390 and a 3274. Seriously, it's not like these things have RS-232 ports. De From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 10 12:51:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:51:50 -0600 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 10 Apr 2006 13:40:24 -0400. <200604101740.k3AHeOsc025392@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <200604101740.k3AHeOsc025392 at yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, Dennis Boone writes: > > > Get a mainframe. Or at least something that speaks EBCDIC. > > > > That's kinda overkill don't ya think? > > Ok, perhaps an S/36? Or a P/390 and a 3274. > > Seriously, it's not like these things have RS-232 ports. It was the "mainframe" businss I thought was overkill, not the EBCDIC part. And yes, I realize they don't have RS-232 ports. That's obvious from looking at the back of the terminal :-). Didn't they make cards for an IBM PC so you could attach a terminal of this style to it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 10 12:59:32 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:59:32 -0600 Subject: Manual for Tektronix 4209 In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 08 Apr 2006 15:09:07 -0700. <44383483.2030807@yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <44383483.2030807 at yahoo.com>, Hauw Suwito writes: > I am looking user manual for Tektronix display 4209. > Can someone please help A good database of online manuals is "manx" . Searching for 4209 in Tektronix gave this: 4209 Computer Display Terminal Operator's Manual -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Apr 10 13:04:34 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:04:34 -0700 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443A9E32.9020408@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: > >Didn't they make cards for an IBM PC so you could attach a terminal of >this style to it? > > no, they make cards so that IBM PC's can emulate being this type of terminal. The chip contained on some of the cards can be use to run one of the terminals, in a limited fashion, but the protocol is not widely available (for the wire). The software spec of what goes on is out there, and you can get some of what goes on on the wire, but the actual data protocol is not published by IBM. I have a product that will capture the interchanges on the wire. One might rig up a utility to do that with a bit of programming with one of the interface cards that are available, if you were to try to reverse engineer what is on the wire. This would assume of course you had access to a mainframe communicating with one of the terminals. Jim From drb at msu.edu Mon Apr 10 13:06:48 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 14:06:48 -0400 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:51:50 MDT.) References: Message-ID: <200604101806.k3AI6mmh026196@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > It was the "mainframe" businss I thought was overkill, not the > EBCDIC part. And yes, I realize they don't have RS-232 ports. > That's obvious from looking at the back of the terminal :-). Yeah, I figured. :-) You can connect a 3274 remotely via SNA, so _it_ must have some kind of serial port that could be talked to with the SNA-ware which was once common among minicomputer vendors, for example. There were at one point one or two projects to build SNA stacks for Linux. Also, Microsoft has an SNA gateway product. > Didn't they make cards for an IBM PC so you could attach a terminal > of this style to it? There was the "3270 PC", and a wide variety of third-party cards to make the PC act like a terminal. Not sure about making it act like a controller. De From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 13:07:35 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 14:07:35 -0400 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443A9EE7.1000108@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <200604101740.k3AHeOsc025392 at yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, > Dennis Boone writes: > >> > > Get a mainframe. Or at least something that speaks EBCDIC. >> > >> > That's kinda overkill don't ya think? >> >> Ok, perhaps an S/36? Or a P/390 and a 3274. >> >> Seriously, it's not like these things have RS-232 ports. > > It was the "mainframe" businss I thought was overkill, not the EBCDIC > part. And yes, I realize they don't have RS-232 ports. That's > obvious from looking at the back of the terminal :-). > > Didn't they make cards for an IBM PC so you could attach a terminal of > this style to it? Sort of. There's a card which will allow a PC to talk to a 3174 establishment controller. However, I don't know of any software that will allow a plain-vanilla PC to talk to a 3174 without emulating a mainframe or midrange system. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 10 13:14:45 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:14:45 -0600 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:04:34 -0700. <443A9E32.9020408@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: In article <443A9E32.9020408 at msm.umr.edu>, jim stephens writes: > This would assume of course you had access to a mainframe communicating with > one of the terminals. Dang! :-) So what's the cheapest way of cobbling together an SNA host without dedicating a warehouse? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 10 13:16:18 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:16:18 -0600 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 10 Apr 2006 14:06:48 -0400. <200604101806.k3AI6mmh026196@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <200604101806.k3AI6mmh026196 at yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, Dennis Boone writes: > [...] Also, > Microsoft has an SNA gateway product. Do you know the name of this? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From blairrya at msu.edu Mon Apr 10 13:24:24 2006 From: blairrya at msu.edu (Ryan Blair) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 14:24:24 -0400 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: References: <200604101806.k3AI6mmh026196@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20060410142424.16b82947.blairrya@msu.edu> On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:16:18 -0600 Richard wrote: > > [...] Also, > > Microsoft has an SNA gateway product. > Do you know the name of this? Host Integration Server (formerly known as SNA Server) -Ryan From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 13:25:22 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 14:25:22 -0400 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443AA312.5070206@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <443A9E32.9020408 at msm.umr.edu>, > jim stephens writes: > >> This would assume of course you had access to a mainframe communicating with >> one of the terminals. > > Dang! :-) > > So what's the cheapest way of cobbling together an SNA host without > dedicating a warehouse? :-) Cheapest? Probably Hercules. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 10 13:28:54 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:28:54 -0600 Subject: external sorting with 9-track tapes Message-ID: Hey, I was just skimming Knuth's Art of Computer Programming chapter where he talks about external sorting. It occurred to me that doing a massive external sort would be an impressive demo for someone viewing a collection. Does anyone here own enough 9-track magtape drives to do external sorting and multi-tape merge operations? It would be cool to watch a time-lapse film of the operation! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From drb at msu.edu Mon Apr 10 13:33:05 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 14:33:05 -0400 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 10 Apr 2006 14:24:24 EDT.) <20060410142424.16b82947.blairrya@msu.edu> References: <20060410142424.16b82947.blairrya@msu.edu> <200604101806.k3AI6mmh026196@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200604101833.k3AIX538026979@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > > Microsoft has an SNA gateway product. > > Do you know the name of this? > > Host Integration Server (formerly known as SNA Server) Info at: http://www.microsoft.com/hiserver/default.mspx De From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 10 13:33:41 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:33:41 -0600 Subject: Teletype Model 43 manual? Message-ID: Has anyone got one? I don't see it on bitsavers and oddly enough Teletype Corporation isn't in the vendor drop-down list on manx! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Apr 10 13:45:17 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 13:45:17 -0500 Subject: Teletype Model 43 manual? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060410134356.0472ae08@mail.ubanproductions.com> I have it in both PDF and TIF format, take your pick: http://www.ubanproductions.com/ksr43.pdf http://www.ubanproductions.com/ksr43.tif --tom At 12:33 PM 4/10/2006 -0600, Richard wrote: >Has anyone got one? I don't see it on bitsavers and oddly enough >Teletype Corporation isn't in the vendor drop-down list on manx! >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Apr 10 13:51:03 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:51:03 -0700 Subject: external sorting with 9-track tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443AA917.6010803@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: >Hey, I was just skimming Knuth's Art of Computer Programming chapter >where he talks about external sorting. > tape sorts make IBM 3420's make the strangest noises you might ever hope to hear out of a drive. Most of the action is not visible, but is in very high frequency vibrations in the vacuum columns, and some unusual motion in the tape loops in the columns. The 3420s can do 200ips forward or reverse reading, which suit them quite well for sorting. The tape sorts were faster than the dasd sorts at the time I saw one run in the late 80's on systems with 3380 drives, for large data sets. There was a 3420 and 3803 for sale in an Ebay auction mentioned in another thread. There is a lot of IBM stuff for sale from vendor "retrosoft" if anyone wants to look. Jim From paul at frixxon.co.uk Mon Apr 10 13:59:01 2006 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:59:01 +0100 Subject: Manual for Tektronix 4209 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443AAAF5.7060500@frixxon.co.uk> Richard wrote: > > 4209 Computer Display Terminal Operator's Manual > However, it isn't online. I must have a copy because there is a Table of Contents given, but finding it again would be another matter ... -- Paul From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Apr 10 14:49:40 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 15:49:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Teletype Model 43 manual? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Has anyone got one? I don't see it on bitsavers and oddly enough > Teletype Corporation isn't in the vendor drop-down list on manx! Yes, and I REALLY want to get rid of it. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From kth at srv.net Mon Apr 10 15:36:30 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 14:36:30 -0600 Subject: IBM 3363 WORM drive Message-ID: <443AC1CE.6040701@srv.net> Anyone have interest in an IBM 3363 drive? I've seen a couple on e-bay that didn't sell. I have one, with 2 PS/2 controllers, and a couple of blank media. I don't (and never have had) a functional PS/2 machine to plug it into. Status is unknown (as I have no way to test it), in original box with original manuals/driver disks/etc. What is it's value, anyone want it for reasonable value/shipping costs? From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 10 15:48:33 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 13:48:33 -0700 Subject: coax protocols (was IBM hercules setup pics) Message-ID: > no, they make cards so that IBM PC's can emulate being this type of > terminal. > > The chip contained on some of the cards can be use to run one of the > terminals, in > a limited fashion, but the protocol is not widely available (for the > wire). The software > spec of what goes on is out there, and you can get some of what goes on > on the > wire, but the actual data protocol is not published by IBM. > GA23-0061 (3274 control unit description and programmer's guide) or something later? > I have a product that will capture the interchanges on the wire. Are these all derivatives of the 3274 and its protocol? What were the various "IRMA" cards? I have some protocol docs in the 3274 FE manuals. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 10 16:07:01 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 15:07:01 -0600 Subject: Manual for Tektronix 4209 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:59:01 +0100. <443AAAF5.7060500@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <443AAAF5.7060500 at frixxon.co.uk>, Paul Williams writes: > Richard wrote: > > > > 4209 Computer Display Terminal Operator's Manual > > > > However, it isn't online. I must have a copy because there is a Table of > Contents given, but finding it again would be another matter ... Hi Paul, What does it mean when manx lists a manual but there is no link? Is that just manual data that you've entered from being cross-referenced by other manuals? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Apr 10 16:34:37 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:34:37 -0400 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604101734.37076.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 10 April 2006 13:24, Richard wrote: > In article <44382F7C.5000208 at gmail.com>, > > Sridhar Ayengar writes: > > > Speaking of 3270 style terminals, I picked up a 3180 terminal. [...] > > > > > > Does this mean I need to get a token ring setup as you describe above > > > in order to get it to talk? > > > > > > If yes, what would I need to get? Assume I know nothing... because > > > that's accurate :). > > > > Get a mainframe. Or at least something that speaks EBCDIC. > > That's kinda overkill don't ya think? Nope. :) Of course, I've got an S/390 and ES/9000 (in various states of non-workingnes), DASD, terminal controllers, and a 3420 emulator sitting in the garage at my place. It's not really all that big, just sorta heavy. So, are you saying that you don't use a mainframe to take care of your accounting?! :) (Unit Record equipment would be acceptable as well. ;) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 10 16:38:08 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 15:38:08 -0600 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:34:37 -0400. <200604101734.37076.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200604101734.37076.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > So, are you saying that you don't use a mainframe to take care of your > accounting?! :) (Unit Record equipment would be acceptable as well. ;) I don't do accounting! :-) Speaking of big IBM boxes... what sort of boxes did they offer for 3D graphics support prior to the RS/6000? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From paul at frixxon.co.uk Mon Apr 10 16:44:10 2006 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 22:44:10 +0100 Subject: Manual for Tektronix 4209 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443AD1AA.7090105@frixxon.co.uk> Richard wrote: > > What does it mean when manx lists a manual but there is no link? Is > that just manual data that you've entered from being cross-referenced > by other manuals? Yes, that's one of three sources, the other two being other bibliographies on the web and lists of manuals owned by me or other classiccmpers who've inventoried their manuals. Manx does contain a "source" field which records the reason the manual is listed, but it isn't public because I wouldn't want people who've supplied information on their collections being pressured to scan stuff. -- Paul From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Apr 10 16:52:14 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:52:14 -0400 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604101752.15019.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 10 April 2006 17:38, Richard wrote: > In article <200604101734.37076.pat at computer-refuge.org>, > > Patrick Finnegan writes: > > So, are you saying that you don't use a mainframe to take care of > > your accounting?! :) (Unit Record equipment would be acceptable as > > well. ;) > > I don't do accounting! :-) You don't have bills to pay (accounts payable) or get money from people (accounts receivable)? I didn't realize that they had a cash-free society going over there in Utah or maybe I'd have moved there. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 10 16:55:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 15:55:50 -0600 Subject: Manual for Tektronix 4209 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 10 Apr 2006 22:44:10 +0100. <443AD1AA.7090105@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <443AD1AA.7090105 at frixxon.co.uk>, Paul Williams writes: > Richard wrote: > > > > What does it mean when manx lists a manual but there is no link? Is > > that just manual data that you've entered from being cross-referenced > > by other manuals? > > Yes, that's one of three sources, the other two being other > bibliographies on the web and lists of manuals owned by me or other > classiccmpers who've inventoried their manuals. Manx does contain a > "source" field which records the reason the manual is listed, but it > isn't public because I wouldn't want people who've supplied information > on their collections being pressured to scan stuff. Presumably manx is something you've coded on your own. Have you considered creating a community around manx? For instance, allowing users registered on manx to say: i) I have/found this manual and here's the link to the PDF ii) I have this manual and would be willing to scan upon request iii) I'm looking for this manual, does anyone have it? iv) Request a scan of a manual that isn't yet scanned If your web server has PHP and MySQL, then there are lots of open source "content management systems" out there that can supply most of this functionality out of the box. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 10 16:57:15 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 15:57:15 -0600 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:52:14 -0400. <200604101752.15019.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200604101752.15019.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > > I don't do accounting! :-) > > You don't have bills to pay (accounts payable) or get money from people > (accounts receivable)? I don't do accounting as a software engineer :-). While the original Mormon settlers were big on collectivism and barter (partly out of a need for survival as an isolated community), I'm a free-market capitalist myself! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 10 17:10:35 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 15:10:35 -0700 Subject: coax for dummies Message-ID: well, sort of http://www.barrcentral.com/support/documents/manuals/3270%20for%20RJE% 2094%20Manual.pdf Is a product manual for a DOS product that could simulate the establishment controller and the terminal, so it has a nice overview of the whole path back to the mainframe. It was enough to answer most of my questions about where to look for more detailed information if I ever need to know.. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 10 17:00:53 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 23:00:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: scsi 5" floppies In-Reply-To: <200604100117.k3A1Hu6Q014918@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 9, 6 06:17:56 pm Message-ID: > > > There was a thing called a 'Drive 95' (I think from Corvalis Micro > > Technologies, but I might have misrememebred that part). It wa a box > > contain ing a 3.5" drive and a microntorller board with an RS232 port. > > Firmaware on the microntroller made it acts as a kermit server. It was > > designed for use with the HP95LX (hence the name), which had kermit in ROM. > > Fascinating! I'd love one of those. *looks at two 95LXes beside him on the > workbench* Although I don't have a Drive-95 (I could use one, I've got a couple of 95s and it also works, I think, with the 48), I don't think they're that rare. I've certainly seen them... Of course you could use just about any computer running kermit to save files from your 95s. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 10 17:08:17 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 23:08:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Teletype Model 43 manual? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Apr 10, 6 12:33:41 pm Message-ID: > > Has anyone got one? I don't see it on bitsavers and oddly enough > Teletype Corporation isn't in the vendor drop-down list on manx! User, or service? The user manual is a thin booklet that says nothing that's not obvious from looking at the machine, the service manaul is rather strangely produced. There are diagrams with arrows with lables like (1) Undo 2 screws, (2) Remove bustle cover. I should have manuals for the _KSR_ 43 somewhere (but no obvious way to get them to you -- no scanenr or anything like that). I've never actually seen an ASR43 (although I believe it exists). -tony From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Apr 10 17:27:27 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:27:27 -0500 Subject: Teletype Model 43 manual? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060410134356.0472ae08@mail.ubanproductions.com > References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060410172627.0250cd90@mail.ubanproductions.com> The manual referenced in my previous post is the User Manual, which as Tony points out, is not the most comprehensive. Also, I just noticed that the PDF file was generated by some evaluation PDF converter which left an obnoxious watermark on every page, so if you want this manual at all, you probably want the TIF version. --tom At 01:45 PM 4/10/2006 -0500, you wrote: >I have it in both PDF and TIF format, take your pick: > >http://www.ubanproductions.com/ksr43.pdf >http://www.ubanproductions.com/ksr43.tif > >--tom > >At 12:33 PM 4/10/2006 -0600, Richard wrote: > >>Has anyone got one? I don't see it on bitsavers and oddly enough >>Teletype Corporation isn't in the vendor drop-down list on manx! >>-- >>"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: >> >> Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty >> > > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 10 17:45:56 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:45:56 -0600 Subject: Teletype Model 43 manual? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 10 Apr 2006 23:08:17 +0100. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > > Has anyone got one? I don't see it on bitsavers and oddly enough > > Teletype Corporation isn't in the vendor drop-down list on manx! > > User, or service? I got the user manual (thanks Tom!) and the service manual would always be handy to have in case it breaks :-). > The user manual is a thin booklet that says nothing > that's not obvious from looking at the machine, Yes, but I like looking at old manuals because they often have things like diagrams of the unit that are good for scraping out onto web pages. > the service manaul is > rather strangely produced. There are diagrams with arrows with lables > like (1) Undo 2 screws, (2) Remove bustle cover. If you're willing to scan it, let's get it uploaded on bitsavers. > I should have manuals for the _KSR_ 43 somewhere (but no obvious way to > get them to you -- no scanenr or anything like that). I've never actually > seen an ASR43 (although I believe it exists). Yes, I should have been more specific, its the KSR model that I have. I haven't seen any indication of an ASR variation of the 43 yet. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 10 17:46:26 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:46:26 -0600 Subject: Teletype Model 43 manual? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 10 Apr 2006 17:27:27 -0500. <5.2.0.9.0.20060410172627.0250cd90@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: In article <5.2.0.9.0.20060410172627.0250cd90 at mail.ubanproductions.com>, Tom Uban writes: > The manual referenced in my previous post is the User Manual, which > as Tony points out, is not the most comprehensive. Also, I just > noticed that the PDF file was generated by some evaluation PDF > converter which left an obnoxious watermark on every page, so if > you want this manual at all, you probably want the TIF version. I will make a new PDF from the TIFs and publish a URL back when I'm done. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Apr 10 19:42:18 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:42:18 -0500 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443AFB6A.2010603@brutman.com> Don't forget that the AS/400/iSeries is an EBCDIC too. I know I've used 3270 data streams via telnet to one. I don't know how one would use a 3270 style terminal though. Then again, on an AS/400 you'd want 5250. (Over twinax if you are hardcore.) From dmabry at mich.com Mon Apr 10 19:43:57 2006 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 20:43:57 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Free HP Computers and Monitors (Plano)] Message-ID: <443AFBCD.1020601@mich.com> Posted to a DFW area news group. Wish it were close to me! -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Free HP Computers and Monitors (Plano) Date: 10 Apr 2006 06:47:21 -0700 From: funkychateau Organization: http://groups.google.com Newsgroups: dfw.forsale Free: Four HP 9836 computers and two companion monitors. Great if you have test equipment with HPIB/GPIB interface and need a BASIC controller. 972-517-4900 From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 10 20:02:25 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:02:25 -0600 Subject: Teletype Model 43 manual? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:46:26 -0600. Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > I will make a new PDF from the TIFs and publish a URL back when I'm > done. Done: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Apr 10 20:24:05 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 21:24:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Speaking of big IBM boxes... what sort of boxes did they offer for > 3D graphics support prior to the RS/6000? 2250 could be attached to an S/360 system. About 15 years ago I saw some sort of CAD system running on a 3081. I do not recall the tubes. There is also the 6361 Fastdraft, an S/1 processor and a third party 3D vector engine. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 10 20:31:16 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:31:16 -0600 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 10 Apr 2006 21:24:05 -0400. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > Speaking of big IBM boxes... what sort of boxes did they offer for > > 3D graphics support prior to the RS/6000? > > 2250 could be attached to an S/360 system. Sweet. Lots of bitsavers material for me to digest. Was the 5250 graphics capable? > About 15 years ago I saw some sort of CAD system running on a 3081. I do > not recall the tubes. Usually the tubes are not the interesting part :-). The graphics processors are the interesting part. For instance, an Evans & Sutherland Picture System is a combination of a host interface and a tube. The tube alone isn't nearly as interesting as the tube with the interface card. Its nigh impossible to get the tube to do anything interesting without the card, whereas sometimes you can cobble up the reverse. > There is also the 6361 Fastdraft, an S/1 processor and a third party 3D > vector engine. More stuff to check into, thanks. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From allain at panix.com Mon Apr 10 21:09:07 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 22:09:07 -0400 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics References: Message-ID: <009e01c65d0c$eaec8e40$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > Speaking of big IBM boxes... what sort of boxes did they offer for > 3D graphics support prior to the RS/6000? Well, just Concurrent with the RS6000 was the Power Visualization System (PVS) that used multiple i860's (up to 32 in parallel) and HPPI RAID to do real time volume visualization kinds of things. Their marketing could've really benefitted if the US had spent a bit more on Science R&D, like by keeping the Superconducting Supercollider project going, for example. John A. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 10 21:36:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 20:36:43 -0600 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 10 Apr 2006 22:09:07 -0400. <009e01c65d0c$eaec8e40$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: In article <009e01c65d0c$eaec8e40$5f25fea9 at ibm23xhr06>, "John Allain" writes: > > Speaking of big IBM boxes... what sort of boxes did they offer for > > 3D graphics support prior to the RS/6000? > > Well, just Concurrent with the RS6000 was the Power Visualization System > (PVS) that used multiple i860's (up to 32 in parallel) and HPPI RAID to > do real time volume visualization kinds of things. Oooooh. Real-time volume rendering is always fun :-). The first machine I ever saw that could do it was in 1987 at the NCGA conference in Philly: the Pixar Image Computer (bet you didn't know Pixar was a classic HW manufacturer, eh?). This machine was sweet! The Computer History Museum has one in its collection. I wonder if it works! Does anyone on the list own the Power Visualization System? I think I remember seeing this thing at SIGGRAPH. It was the size of a standing household refrigerator, if memory serves correctly. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 10 21:45:49 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 21:45:49 -0500 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics References: Message-ID: <009201c65d12$0ae67df0$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Richard wrote... > So what's the cheapest way of cobbling together an SNA host without > dedicating a warehouse? :-) Actually, you don't need SNA. You just need a 3174, and either a mainframe or a PC running hercules :) Jay From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Apr 10 21:54:46 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 21:54:46 -0500 Subject: Teletype Model 43 manual? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060410215433.046e9870@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 07:02 PM 4/10/2006 -0600, you wrote: >In article , > Richard writes: > > > I will make a new PDF from the TIFs and publish a URL back when I'm > > done. > >Done: > Cool, thanks! --tom >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > From allain at panix.com Mon Apr 10 23:22:32 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 00:22:32 -0400 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics References: Message-ID: <007301c65d1f$9925d2c0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > Does anyone on the list own the Power Visualization System? Does anyone own a PVS in 2006, period? Perhaps in a back warehouse in Los Alamos. > (bet you didn't know Pixar was a classic HW manufacturer, eh?). There is a Friend I have and infrequent poster to this list who has one in his Garage. > I think I remember seeing {the PVS} at SIGGRAPH. It was the size of > a standing household refrigerator, if memory serves correctly. And White, to assist in the Cool motif. Thanks for coming by. So whose booths did you work out of? John A.. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 23:27:07 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 00:27:07 -0400 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443B301B.6080902@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <200604101734.37076.pat at computer-refuge.org>, > Patrick Finnegan writes: > >> So, are you saying that you don't use a mainframe to take care of your >> accounting?! :) (Unit Record equipment would be acceptable as well. ;) > > I don't do accounting! :-) > > Speaking of big IBM boxes... what sort of boxes did they offer for > 3D graphics support prior to the RS/6000? Mostly 3D graphics terminals CHANNEL-attached to mainframes. Although, I think the RT/PC had a 3D option. Peace... Sridhar From kawninja at cableone.net Sat Apr 8 18:38:18 2006 From: kawninja at cableone.net (Steve Phipps) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 18:38:18 -0500 Subject: External 3.5" drive for TRS-80 4P? Message-ID: <001701c65b65$83f4a270$8a02a8c0@steve6isvpk5vy> Hi all, I'd like to add a third drive, which would be an external 3.5", to my TRS-80 4P. The 4P never came with an external floppy connector like the TRS-80 Model 4, but the 4P floppy controller apparently does support four drives and some folks have successfully modified them to use external drives. Any ideas on how to do this? I'm thinking maybe just set the 3.5" drive select jumper to DS2 (there's DS0, DS1, and DS2)... connect enough straight floppy cable and connectors for everything to the internal controller jack... and see if the 4P recognizes the 3.5" drive as :3. Thanks, Steve P. From kawninja at cableone.net Sat Apr 8 23:18:56 2006 From: kawninja at cableone.net (Steve Phipps) Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2006 23:18:56 -0500 Subject: WTB Compaq Portable 3 Message-ID: <000601c65b8c$b86406f0$8a02a8c0@steve6isvpk5vy> Hi all, Looking for a nice working Compaq Portable 3 to use as an emulator machine for file / disk transfers with my other old computers. Included system disks and manuals would be a plus. E-mail me at kawninja at cableone.net if you have one for sale. Please include asking price and shipping cost to my zip 64801. Thanks, Steve P. kawninja at cableone.net From kawninja at cableone.net Sun Apr 9 16:46:55 2006 From: kawninja at cableone.net (Steve Phipps) Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 16:46:55 -0500 Subject: Cracking open a Compudyne case Message-ID: <000601c65c1f$1ef19c10$8a02a8c0@steve6isvpk5vy> Hi all, Just bought a Compudyne 386 desktop at the thrift store and can't figure out how to open the all plastic case. The back of the case has two tabs at each top corner and a case screw between them. Remove the screw and spring the tabs and the case top loosens towards the back, but it won't disengage from the middle to the front of the machine. Any ideas? Thanks, Steve P. From vax at purdue.edu Mon Apr 10 13:59:07 2006 From: vax at purdue.edu (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 14:59:07 -0400 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604101459.07079.vax@purdue.edu> On Monday 10 April 2006 13:24, Richard wrote: > In article <44382F7C.5000208 at gmail.com>, > > Sridhar Ayengar writes: > > > Speaking of 3270 style terminals, I picked up a 3180 terminal. [...] > > > > > > Does this mean I need to get a token ring setup as you describe above > > > in order to get it to talk? > > > > > > If yes, what would I need to get? Assume I know nothing... because > > > that's accurate :). > > > > Get a mainframe. Or at least something that speaks EBCDIC. > > That's kinda overkill don't ya think? Nope. :) Of course, I've got an S/390 and ES/9000 (in various states of non-workingnes), DASD, terminal controllers, and a 3420 emulator sitting in the garage at my place. It's not really all that big, just sorta heavy. So, are you saying that you don't use a mainframe to take care of your accounting?! :) (Unit Record equipment would be acceptable as well. ;) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 11 01:54:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 23:54:09 -0700 Subject: external sorting with 9-track tapes In-Reply-To: <443AA917.6010803@msm.umr.edu> References: <443AA917.6010803@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200604102354090800.4FFD9BFB@10.0.0.252> On 4/10/2006 at 11:51 AM jim stephens wrote: >tape sorts make IBM 3420's make the strangest noises you might ever hope >to hear out of a drive. Most of the action is not visible, but is in very high >frequency vibrations in the vacuum columns, and some unusual motion in the tape >loops in the columns. Sorting (and its cousin, merging) used to be a big deal in the data processing world. Many hours were spent working with oscillating or polyphase merge sorts. I remember when I was told that I could use DISK to sort my data (we had a large roomfull of CDC 844s). My reaction was "wow, with random access to any point a file, I can really make a sort fly!" When it got down to paper, however, it turned out that the old methods that used tape also worked very well on disk. I remember how disappointed I was--sort of like being told that there was no Santa Claus. For those of you unaccustomed to tape sorts and wondering how that could possibly be; remember that we used multiple tape drives and while a tape might be rewinding, data was still being written and read to other tapes. You might think that you'd save a lot of time by not having to rewind a disk, but it really doesn't matter. Cheers, Chuck From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Tue Apr 11 05:04:44 2006 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 12:04:44 +0200 (MEST) Subject: LocalNet (was: "party line" for terminals?) Message-ID: <32053.1144749884@www009.gmx.net> "John K." wrote: > Going way beyond the "Party Line" topic, does anyone remember the Sytek > system? The Sytek network used bidirectional CATV technology for the > backbone and network interfaces that used two Z80 processors to connect > RS-232 devices. One Z80 handled the RS-232 interfaces (you could have 1 > to 8 19,200 bps RS-232 ports) and the other handled the > modulation/demodulation of the RF carrier. A 68000 Unix box acted as > the network control center (NCC). When you turned on a terminal and hit > return you got the attention of the NCC and it gave you a menu of > available devices (ones which you had permission to access ANDed with > the devices [systems] which had available ports). I know the Sytek > system was used at NASA, as it was through NASA that we found out about > the Sytek "local area network" equipment sometime about 1979 or 1980. > With the CATV bandwidth and the frequency spectrum divided up for > various uses, the Sytek network allowed a dozen or so video channels, a > few thousand phone calls, and several thousand 19.2 kbps terminal > connections simultaneously on a single cable. Not bad for late 1970's > technology. > > John (Sorry for the late response...) Thank you for bringing up that topic! The whole concept was called "LocalNet" back when it ruled, right? Over the course of time, about ten of the two-port desktop units ("T-Box" 2502) and four or so of the 32-port rackmount boxes ("S-Mux" 2532) found their way to the University computer museum of Erlangen University where I work. I've heard there once were lots more of them used here for timesharing the computing center machines form terminals scattered all around the campus. We're toying with the idea of setting up a small segment of CATV cable (we still have some old Magnavox line amplifiers, splitter jacks and such), but we seem to miss a crucial piece of hardware: the bootloader box, from which the "modems" receive their firmware and channel assignments and without which they consequently won't work. We suspect it was junked together with the main stock of modems about ten years ago. I've not been able to find much about LocalNet online, so I don't know what type designation the bootloader box has, what it looks like and so on. Since it is most important for the functional demonstration network we'd like to have, I'd be very thankful for any information. Yours sincerely, -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de "Feel free" - 10 GB Mailbox, 100 FreeSMS/Monat ... Jetzt GMX TopMail testen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/topmail From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Apr 11 05:57:40 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:57:40 +0100 Subject: ASR-33 (was: Programmer's conundrums) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35f6db154e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message Richard wrote: > I get the impression that ASR-33s don't become available too often > anymore and when they do become available, people attack them like > sharks in a pool of chum :-). Noisy, power hungry and a pig to wire up to anything more modern than a KIM-1. Yeah, that's the ticket :P I've got a little board kicking around somewhere that converts an RS232 line into a parallel printer port and a PC keyboard port. A homebrew printing terminal, in other words. I used it with an Epson LX80 a while back, but I don't know what I did with the board after that. The schematics are on a scrap of paper somewhere and the firmware should be on one of my 'spare' HDDs. I probably should take a look at the Citizen 120D+ that's sitting in a cupboard.. ISTR it needs a new interface connector on the printer and probably the same on the interface cartridge too. Problem being it looks like a DIN41612 (Eurocard) connector, but it's 30 way AB style dual-row - the only Eurocard connectors I've seen in that style are 32 and 64 pins, not 30. -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 11 09:02:04 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 08:02:04 -0600 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 11 Apr 2006 00:22:32 -0400. <007301c65d1f$9925d2c0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: In article <007301c65d1f$9925d2c0$5f25fea9 at ibm23xhr06>, "John Allain" writes: > > Does anyone on the list own the Power Visualization System? > > Does anyone own a PVS in 2006, period? I haven't tracked viz hardware since the mid 90s... do people just use piles of pcs now? SGI used to be the stuff, but they may not be in business for much longer. > > (bet you didn't know Pixar was a classic HW manufacturer, eh?). > > There is a Friend I have and infrequent poster to this list who has > one in his Garage. Oooooooh. I'm thinking there were only a handfull of these made ever, so having one is a serious score! > > I think I remember seeing {the PVS} at SIGGRAPH. It was the size of > > a standing household refrigerator, if memory serves correctly. > > And White, to assist in the Cool motif. > Thanks for coming by. So whose booths did you work out of? When I was working SIGGRAPH, I worked the Evans & Sutherland booth. That was early 90s. Now when I attend SIGGRAPH, I don't work anyone's booth, I just attend :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 11 09:02:37 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 08:02:37 -0600 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 11 Apr 2006 00:27:07 -0400. <443B301B.6080902@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <443B301B.6080902 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > > Speaking of big IBM boxes... what sort of boxes did they offer for > > 3D graphics support prior to the RS/6000? > > Mostly 3D graphics terminals CHANNEL-attached to mainframes. Although, > I think the RT/PC had a 3D option. Do you have any specific model numbers for "3D graphics terminals"? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Apr 11 09:26:19 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:26:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP-IL cables In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060410134356.0472ae08@mail.ubanproductions.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060410134356.0472ae08@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: Does anyone have some spare HP-IL cables? I have a HP 110, 9114 and 2225B, and no way to connect them. :-) Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 11 10:04:19 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 09:04:19 -0600 Subject: Megatek Whizzard 1645 docs available Message-ID: Operator's Manual Mar 1985 Graphics Protocol Apr 1985 How do I get them incorporated into bitsavers or manx? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Apr 11 11:14:32 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:14:32 -0500 Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <20060407214057.23540.qmail@web60813.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060407214057.23540.qmail@web60813.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <443BD5E8.3090008@pacbell.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, back when engineers actually thought about things and didn't attempt > to 'solve' problems by throwing computing power at them. > -tony Tony, I sat on this for a few days since I try not to take the bait, but I finally couldn't resist. If it was just this one comment, I'd let it go, but you frequently post messages dripping with disdain like this one. As an engineer with more than twenty years of experience, I found what you said insulting and misinformed. When I started in 1985 when a 6 MHz 68020 Sun machine was hot stuff, CPU cycles weren't really all that free (although the old timers on the list will laugh at that). Now I work at a company with a farm of 5000+ CPUs running at 3 GHz, each with 4 or 8 GB of DRAM each (more for the subset set aside for large jobs). There were crap engineers when I started and there are crap engineers now. I'm sure there were crap engineers well before my time and will be after I retire. The flip side is there are very many very smart people still in the trenches creating new work. To use a very broad brush and claim engineers today are inferior for making rational decisions regarding resource allocation is just misguided smugness. Can you imagine routinely designing 50 M gate chips in 12 months without having significant CPU resources to aid in the process? The heroic engineering of yesteryear that you so admire, and rightly so, is no longer applicable. The constraints have changed, and so have the methods. Attempting to lay out a modern chip by hand would produce something riddled with errors; it would take forever to complete, and in the end it would be much larger than the one using CAD tools. Relying only on hand checking for programs of real complexity is impractical. I suppose every time I change my verilog code I could spend a day or a week contemplating it to foresee the unforeseeable, and after I got fired for being unproductive, I'd have a lot more time to do things that way. No, it is far better to do the best you can in a reasonable amount of time and let a dumb and fast pile of CPUs run regressions after any changes. At more than one company I've worked for it is policy to run a small regression after any change even if the only thing that has been changed is a comment. It is important to make a distinction between science and engineering. Scientists try to compute things exactly as possible; engineering is more about having the wisdom and experience to know that although it is possible to compute something to the 15th digit, for the given application, 6 digits, say, is enough. Engineering fundamentally is about cutting corners; engineering is pragmatic. Here is a thought experiment. If the designers of the had access to the resources of today with the constraints of today, do you think they'd still go about it the same way? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 11 11:19:22 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 09:19:22 -0700 Subject: megatek manuals Message-ID: <1EB990C5-DEF0-4775-B4B3-988A1BD8FBAC@bitsavers.org> > How do I get them incorporated into bitsavers or manx? I've just copied them to bitsavers. The mirrors will pick them up tonight. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 11 12:02:47 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:02:47 -0700 Subject: short haul modems Message-ID: I picked up a bunch of Black Box "Short Haul Modems" yesterday. I hadn't ever looked at such things closely before, but they are just powered RS-232 to current loop converters. Very handy for old CPUs that only have current-loop TTY interfaces, like the Varian 620, or hooking a 33 to modern gear (assuming it can talk 110 baud). I'll get the circuit traced out in the next few days, and check what current they are running through the loop. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 11 12:06:46 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:06:46 -0700 Subject: Pixar Image Computers Message-ID: <7573F2DB-74D9-46A8-9322-5E015150D6B1@bitsavers.org> > There is a Friend I have and infrequent poster to this list who has > one in his Garage. Does he have the manuals? I think I know where the CHAP software might be found for Suns, but haven't found a copy of the docs. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 11 12:16:50 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:16:50 -0700 Subject: IBM 3-D CAD Systems Message-ID: <7FCFC608-3F85-43B3-957D-E05A29A3F0FC@bitsavers.org> > Do you have any specific model numbers for "3D graphics terminals"? I am drawing a complete blank on the product numbers (5xxx series?) but IBM made a series of CAD workstations in the mid-80's. A friend of mine ran a lab full of them at the University of Wisconsin - Milw for the Mechanical Engineering department. I didn't think they were IBM RT based. http://www.cadazz.com/cad-software-history-1980-1985.htm Is sort of interesting, too. From bert at brothom.nl Tue Apr 11 13:29:41 2006 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 19:29:41 +0100 Subject: OT: anybody recognises this protocol? Message-ID: <443BF595.9030406@brothom.nl> Captured between video processor (olympus) and video printer: -> [2][0][3][FF][FC][1][83][18][3] <- [2][0][2][FF][FD][81][8][3] -> [2][0][3][FF][FC][1][89][20][3] <- [2][0][2][FF][FD][81][8][3] (values in hex, just a sample) Does anybody recognise this protocol ? I'll fill in the context if needed, now left off to reduce noise. TIA Bert From kth at srv.net Tue Apr 11 12:55:22 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:55:22 -0600 Subject: short haul modems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443BED8A.3000608@srv.net> Al Kossow wrote: > I picked up a bunch of Black Box "Short Haul Modems" yesterday. > I hadn't ever looked at such things closely before, but they > are just powered RS-232 to current loop converters. > > Very handy for old CPUs that only have current-loop TTY > interfaces, like the Varian 620, or hooking a 33 to modern > gear (assuming it can talk 110 baud). > > I'll get the circuit traced out in the next few days, and > check what current they are running through the loop. > The short-haul modems I used in the past (not Black Box, Madzar, iirc) were designed for 4-wire leased lines, and had a limit of a couple of miles. They expected a short-haul modem at each end (worked in pairs). I don't think they were designed as current-loop converters, so the current may not be at any standard setting. They may not even be current-loop, basically just opto-isolated op-amps on twisted pairs. Lightning *frequently* killed them, but rarely made it to the equipment they were attached to. Open them up, and check for "burn" holes (charred spots) in the top of the IC's. iirc they only had 2 IC's, a transmitter and a receiver. They maxed out about 9600 baud, and you had to run them slower the longer the wire between the units were. They were designed to be faster than modems (which were at 300 baud when we started using them, 2400 baud when we quit). From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Tue Apr 11 12:46:56 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:46:56 -0600 Subject: RL drive lubrication Message-ID: <443BEB90.3050003@rogerwilco.org> In a recent acquisition of several 11/23 systems I was fortunate to receive four RL01 drives, being two sets of Unit 0 and Unit 1. One set of these drives were very dirty/dusty, and by the looks of the course filters (which were deteriorating badly in all drives) and the accumulations in the power supply and plenum areas, I have to say this set was used in at least an ISO Class 10 Million level (not so) clean room environment! The other drive set was in pretty good condition, cleanliness wise. I replaced all four course filters, and checked the absolute filters, which were actually okay even in the dirty drives. Because all of these have been powered off for many years, I opened them up and pulled the power supply for a session with my capacitor reformation rig after cleanup. With that successfully accomplished, and finding that all voltages were in line, everything was reassembled. During the wait for the capacitors, I cleaned the interior pretty well with a vacuum and Windex. As a side note, three of the drives still had the platter brushes installed, and since I already had each drive opened for power supply checkout, I went ahead and removed the brush assemblies. Fortunately, the 'clean' set of drives are now fully functional, having been tested with one of the 11/23s. Unfortunately, after mounting and LOADing a known good disk cartridge, neither drive from the 'dirty' set will show READY after spinup. Though the details are a bit different, each drive emits a very noticeable sound, kind of a whining/rumbling sound (not squealing), that I think is indicative of dry bearings in the spindle, the spindle motor, or both. I wonder if dragging bearings are preventing the drive from becoming READY due to uneven RPM? I've scoured the online documents for possible information regarding RL drive lubrication, but I can't come up with anything that suggests 'in the field' lubrication options. The RL01/RL02 Maintenance Guide talks about disassembly and Field Replaceable Units, but nothing about lubrication. So a few questions for those in the know: Could dragging bearings be the cause of no READY indication? Has anyone had any experience lubricating the appropriate assemblies in an RL drive? If so, what lubricant is recommended, where is it applied, and how? Removing the motor for lubrication is no problem, but I wonder if removing the spindle assembly would then necessitate a head alignment once it's back in place? I'm not sure I'm ready to go through that process just yet! Still, if I need to do it, I need to do it. Any advice is welcome. Assuming I can get this resolved, I'm in the market for a set of (2) RL connecting cables and a terminator. Anyone with some spares that they'd like an offer on, please contact me off-list. Thanks. J From allain at panix.com Tue Apr 11 13:08:25 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 14:08:25 -0400 Subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access? References: Message-ID: <002701c65d93$05186ba0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Speaking of 3D... Feeling reminiscent, I picked up am sgi Indigo2 at a fair price... This is the first sgi I've owned, after various bouts of programming and managing the older models for large companies. Anyway, I'm getting the impression that there's no way to log in to 5.3 without a password (single mode is even pwded). So, anybody know an exploit or have an IRIX 5.3 CD that they can sell,copy or loan to me? John A. From allain at panix.com Tue Apr 11 13:10:04 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 14:10:04 -0400 Subject: Pixar Image Computers References: <7573F2DB-74D9-46A8-9322-5E015150D6B1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <002801c65d93$28fa3620$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Al K. said: > Does he have the manuals? > > I think I know where the CHAP software might be > found for Suns, but haven't found a copy of the docs. I don't think he has manuals, but will check. Should we try to get this thing running? What is the connectivity and host it requires? John A. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 13:14:08 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 11:14:08 -0700 Subject: IBM 3-D CAD Systems In-Reply-To: <7FCFC608-3F85-43B3-957D-E05A29A3F0FC@bitsavers.org> References: <7FCFC608-3F85-43B3-957D-E05A29A3F0FC@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: It was the 5080 series of IBM workstations. I got a Calma branded one from the Calma auction in 1989? they were made in the mid 1980s. They were basically a 6 Mhz AT (286 & 287) mounted vertically in a larger case. In the other side of the case was a custom graphics controller of IBM design that ran a Thompson made monitor at 1024X1024. Also had a graphic tablet on a serial port and used the standard AT keyboard. Not RT based. I also saw them come out of Boeing in hte early 90s. Thanks for the link to the CAD history. It has been very informative. Paxton Astoria, OR On 4/11/06, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Do you have any specific model numbers for "3D graphics terminals"? > > I am drawing a complete blank on the product numbers (5xxx series?) > but IBM made a series of CAD workstations in the mid-80's. A friend > of mine ran a lab full of them at the University of Wisconsin - Milw > for the Mechanical Engineering department. I didn't think they were > IBM RT based. > > http://www.cadazz.com/cad-software-history-1980-1985.htm > > Is sort of interesting, too. > > -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 11 12:55:06 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 18:55:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Teletype Model 43 manual? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Apr 10, 6 04:45:56 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > > > > > Has anyone got one? I don't see it on bitsavers and oddly enough > > > Teletype Corporation isn't in the vendor drop-down list on manx! > > > > User, or service? > > I got the user manual (thanks Tom!) and the service manual would > always be handy to have in case it breaks :-). It's a fairly good manual on the mechanical side (it even tells you how to take the printhead apart and replace one of the solenoids). There are schematics too. But be warned the KSR43 is stuffed with custom chips so electronic repairs may not be triviail. > > The user manual is a thin booklet that says nothing > > that's not obvious from looking at the machine, > > Yes, but I like looking at old manuals because they often have things > like diagrams of the unit that are good for scraping out onto web > pages. As a general comment, I wish more websites on old computers/peripherals would show the insides and give some technical information. The cases are of little interest to me, there is, however, beauty in the PCBs in some cases. > > > the service manaul is > > rather strangely produced. There are diagrams with arrows with lables > > like (1) Undo 2 screws, (2) Remove bustle cover. > > If you're willing to scan it, let's get it uploaded on bitsavers. As I said below, I don't have a scanner, and I don't have anything to connect it to (well, anyone got a scanner that links to a classic PERQ?) > > > I should have manuals for the _KSR_ 43 somewhere (but no obvious way to > > get them to you -- no scanenr or anything like that). I've never actually > > seen an ASR43 (although I believe it exists). > > Yes, I should have been more specific, its the KSR model that I have. > I haven't seen any indication of an ASR variation of the 43 yet. I think I read about it once. It appeared to have an external box for the punch/reader which linked to a (DB25?) socket on the back of the Model 43. The rearmost board which contains the RS232 buffers, etc, was therefore different, no idea if there were other internal changes. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 11 13:51:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 19:51:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: RL drive lubrication In-Reply-To: <443BEB90.3050003@rogerwilco.org> from "J Blaser" at Apr 11, 6 11:46:56 am Message-ID: > pretty good condition, cleanliness wise. I replaced all four course > filters, and > checked the absolute filters, which were actually okay even in the dirty > drives. The RL airflow is rather nice in there's air circulated round the disk pack, the absolute filter and the outside of the 'heat exchanger' tubes, and a second airflow through the prefilter, the inside the of the tubes, and out over the heatsinks and the PSU fan. While the first system is not sealed, there is less interchange between it and the 'very dirty' air than in most drives, so the absolute filters last longer. > > Because all of these have been powered off for many years, I opened them > up and > pulled the power supply for a session with my capacitor reformation rig > after > cleanup. With that successfully accomplished, and finding that all > voltages were in > line, everything was reassembled. During the wait for the capacitors, I > cleaned the > interior pretty well with a vacuum and Windex. As a side note, three of > the drives > still had the platter brushes installed, and since I already had each > drive opened > for power supply checkout, I went ahead and removed the brush assemblies. What did you remoce? Just the brush tips? Did you leave the motor, the microswitch, and the operating cam? Without those, you might have problems getting the drive to go ready. > > Fortunately, the 'clean' set of drives are now fully functional, having > been tested > with one of the 11/23s. > > Unfortunately, after mounting and LOADing a known good disk cartridge, > neither drive > from the 'dirty' set will show READY after spinup. Though the details You do have these cabled to a working controller, I trust? You need the clock signal from the cotnroller for the drive to spin up and go ready. > are a bit > different, each drive emits a very noticeable sound, kind of a > whining/rumbling sound > (not squealing), that I think is indicative of dry bearings in the > spindle, the > spindle motor, or both. I wonder if dragging bearings are preventing > the drive from > becoming READY due to uneven RPM? > It's possible, but unlikely. I suppose you could start by looking at the output of the sector transducer (posibly after the amplifier circuit). That's what the drive uses as a speed reference anyway (the motor in the RL is not locked to the mains, unlike most other demountable hard drives, there is no change for 50/60Hz). See if the signal is stable and has the right frequency (compare it with the same signal in another working drive). > I've scoured the online documents for possible information regarding RL > drive > lubrication, but I can't come up with anything that suggests 'in the field' > lubrication options. The RL01/RL02 Maintenance Guide talks about > disassembly and > Field Replaceable Units, but nothing about lubrication. > > So a few questions for those in the know: > > Could dragging bearings be the cause of no READY indication? > > Has anyone had any experience lubricating the appropriate assemblies in > an RL drive? I would not try to lubricate the spindle bearings. You'll never get it apart anyway (t's pressed together, and you have to maintain mecahnical balance, etc. There may be a ferrofluid seal in there too). The risk of contamination to the disk/heads is too great. It shouldn't hurt to take the spindle motor out, take it apart (obvious through-bolts) and oil the bearings. I think they're phosphor-bronze bushes, not ball races, in which case you want a medium machine oil on them. > If so, what lubricant is recommended, where is it applied, and how? > > Removing the motor for lubrication is no problem, but I wonder if > removing the > spindle assembly would then necessitate a head alignment once it's back > in place? No, you can remove and replace the spindle without upseting the heads. In any case, the RL drive has an embedded servo burst in each sector header, so head alignemnt is quite easy (you need a 'scope, but no special alignment disk, any normal disk will do). -tony From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 11 14:01:07 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 13:01:07 -0600 Subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 11 Apr 2006 14:08:25 -0400. <002701c65d93$05186ba0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: In article <002701c65d93$05186ba0$21fe54a6 at ibm23xhr06>, "John Allain" writes: > Anyway, I'm getting the impression that there's no way to log in to > 5.3 without a password (single mode is even pwded). So, anybody > know an exploit or have an IRIX 5.3 CD that they can sell,copy or > loan to me? Ditto! I've got a Solid Impact R10000 that I haven't powered up yet and I suspect I'll be facing the same issue. First, I need to get one of those monitor cable dongle adapter thingies. :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Apr 11 14:03:08 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 15:03:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <443BD5E8.3090008@pacbell.net> Message-ID: > As an engineer with more than twenty years of experience, I found what > you said insulting and misinformed. I agree. The wheels of progress move along, especially in the electronics industry. Hell, even in the few years I have been out of hardcore engineering, I am sure a few of the tools and ideas that were cutting edge for me are now old fashioned and disused. Maybe at some point everyone on this list will actually spend some time in the real world, at a real engineering job, or running a real engineering project. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Tue Apr 11 14:41:26 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 13:41:26 -0600 Subject: RL drive lubrication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443C0666.2010700@rogerwilco.org> Tony Duell wrote: >> for power supply checkout, I went ahead and removed the brush assemblies. >> > > What did you remoce? Just the brush tips? Did you leave the motor, the > microswitch, and the operating cam? Without those, you might have > problems getting the drive to go ready. > > Yes, I left the motor, cam, and switch. I just removed the actual brush arm from the shaft, leaving everything else so that the logic would 'think' the brush is still in place. >> >> Fortunately, the 'clean' set of drives are now fully functional, having >> been tested >> with one of the 11/23s. >> >> Unfortunately, after mounting and LOADing a known good disk cartridge, >> neither drive >> from the 'dirty' set will show READY after spinup. Though the details >> > > You do have these cabled to a working controller, I trust? You need the > clock signal from the cotnroller for the drive to spin up and go ready. > Yes, indeed, I'm using the same platform for my testing of all drives -- both the dirty drives that are 'broken', and the clean set that work -- with every other component except the drive being the same. That is, I'm using the same 11/23, RLV11 controller, cables, terminator, etc. I'm just swapping the drives themselves. > >> I wonder if dragging bearings are preventing >> the drive from >> becoming READY due to uneven RPM? >> > > It's possible, but unlikely. I suppose you could start by looking at the > output of the sector transducer (posibly after the amplifier circuit). > That's what the drive uses as a speed reference anyway (the motor in the > RL is not locked to the mains, unlike most other demountable hard drives, > there is no change for 50/60Hz). See if the signal is stable and has the > right frequency (compare it with the same signal in another working drive). > Excellent advice. I will try this. I do have a scope, though I'm more of a software geek rather than a hardware engineer! :) I just find it interesting that both of these drives (the 'dirty' set) exhibit the same behavior vs. the 'clean' set, when all else is the same, i.e., controller, etc. I may be fixating on the noise as the cause of no READY indication, but maybe it's something else. > > I would not try to lubricate the spindle bearings. You'll never get it > apart anyway (t's pressed together, and you have to maintain mecahnical > balance, etc. There may be a ferrofluid seal in there too). The risk of > contamination to the disk/heads is too great. > > Hmm...okay. I'll let this go for now, hoping that the issue is with the motor. > It shouldn't hurt to take the spindle motor out, take it apart (obvious > through-bolts) and oil the bearings. I think they're phosphor-bronze > bushes, not ball races, in which case you want a medium machine oil on them. > > I'll begin here, and see if this resolves the noises I'm hearing. I still hope that IF the lubrication helps to steady the RPM, it might let the drives go READY. > No, you can remove and replace the spindle without upseting the heads. In > any case, the RL drive has an embedded servo burst in each sector header, > so head alignemnt is quite easy (you need a 'scope, but no special > alignment disk, any normal disk will do). > > I was just worried that there might be some vertical alignment issues if the spindle assembly wasn't put back correctly. I have no idea if there are shimming or 'leveling' screws that would assist in making sure that the platter is aligned vertically (along its axis) so that the heads have the proper 'flying height' for both surfaces of the platter. Many thanks, Tony, for you suggestions. I'll let you know how it goes, probably later in the week. I've gotta satisfy the tax man first! April 17 is fast approaching! :) J. From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 14:50:47 2006 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 20:50:47 +0100 Subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access? In-Reply-To: References: <002701c65d93$05186ba0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <11c909eb0604111250l7b3b4186kc74c246a7746a261@mail.gmail.com> I broke into mine by booting sash and cat-ing the contents of /etc/passwd to the console, then ran the encrypted password thru john the ripper. Luckily the password turned out to be exactly that, so j-t-r took about 0.01 seconds to dictionary attack it. The principle, however, is sound :) On 11/04/06, Richard wrote: > > > In article <002701c65d93$05186ba0$21fe54a6 at ibm23xhr06>, > "John Allain" writes: > > > Anyway, I'm getting the impression that there's no way to log in to > > 5.3 without a password (single mode is even pwded). So, anybody > > know an exploit or have an IRIX 5.3 CD that they can sell,copy or > > loan to me? > > Ditto! > > I've got a Solid Impact R10000 that I haven't powered up yet and I > suspect I'll be facing the same issue. First, I need to get one of > those monitor cable dongle adapter thingies. :-) > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Tue Apr 11 14:53:43 2006 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 21:53:43 +0200 Subject: Looking for a good home Message-ID: <443C0947.20105@worldonline.nl> A charity in Arnhem, The Netherlands wants to get rid of: a PS/1 a Compaq 286/SLT in Compaq bag (luggable) an Apple II a Philips P2000T Charities being charities the would appreciate getting some money for it. Wim From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Apr 11 14:59:35 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 15:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Teletype ASR 33 Message-ID: A number of folks have requested images and details about the 33 I want to sell. Here it is: www.bestweb.net/~toober/images/TT33.jpg www.bestweb.net/~toober/images/TT33.1.jpg www.bestweb.net/~toober/images/TT33.2.jpg www.bestweb.net/~toober/images/TT33.3.jpg It needs a little attention, but not bad. It will probably want a lube job, but the motor and mechanism does turn freely by hands - no rough spots. I can drag this to Boulder, CO, Carlsbad, CA, and up to the Bay Area. If interested, please ask off list. Offers would be nice, as well. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 11 14:59:39 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 20:59:39 +0100 Subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access? In-Reply-To: <002701c65d93$05186ba0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <002701c65d93$05186ba0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <443C0AAB.203@yahoo.co.uk> John Allain wrote: > Speaking of 3D... > Feeling reminiscent, I picked up am sgi Indigo2 at a fair price... > This is the first sgi I've owned, after various bouts of programming > and managing the older models for large companies. > > Anyway, I'm getting the impression that there's no way to log in to > 5.3 without a password (single mode is even pwded). So, anybody > know an exploit Hmm, I think Linux can read and write SGI filesystems (and understand SGI disklabels) these days - in which case dropping the system drive into a nearby Linux box and mounting the SGI's root partition should sort you out. Or you can hook the drive up to a Linux box, locate and edit the necessary disk block by hand; been there, done that before... cheers Jules From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 23:31:25 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 00:31:25 -0400 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: <443AFB6A.2010603@brutman.com> References: <443AFB6A.2010603@brutman.com> Message-ID: <443B311D.4070107@gmail.com> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > Don't forget that the AS/400/iSeries is an EBCDIC too. I know I've used > 3270 data streams via telnet to one. I don't know how one would use a > 3270 style terminal though. Then again, on an AS/400 you'd want 5250. > (Over twinax if you are hardcore.) Twinax. *There's* a fun connector to crimp. What a pain. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 10 23:33:10 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 00:33:10 -0400 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: <009201c65d12$0ae67df0$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <009201c65d12$0ae67df0$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <443B3186.5020000@gmail.com> Jay West wrote: > Richard wrote... >> So what's the cheapest way of cobbling together an SNA host without >> dedicating a warehouse? :-) > Actually, you don't need SNA. You just need a 3174, and either a > mainframe or a PC running hercules :) It's more fun with SNA, though. 8-) And 3745's are getting as cheap as 3174's nowadays. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 16:42:36 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 17:42:36 -0400 Subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access? In-Reply-To: <002701c65d93$05186ba0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <002701c65d93$05186ba0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <443C22CC.5060009@gmail.com> John Allain wrote: > Speaking of 3D... > Feeling reminiscent, I picked up am sgi Indigo2 at a fair price... > This is the first sgi I've owned, after various bouts of programming > and managing the older models for large companies. > > Anyway, I'm getting the impression that there's no way to log in to > 5.3 without a password (single mode is even pwded). So, anybody > know an exploit or have an IRIX 5.3 CD that they can sell,copy or > loan to me? What filesystem does it use? You might be able to boot Linux and alter he master passwd file. Peace... Sridhar From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Apr 11 16:48:44 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 17:48:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604112154.RAA07456@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> As an engineer with more than twenty years of experience, I found >> what you said insulting and misinformed. > I agree. I do and I don't. Certainly you two are right in that CPU power is a tool, useful for many purposes, and only a stupid engineer disdains a useful tool without good reason. But on the other hand, Tony is also right in that CPU crunch is no substitute for intelligent thought. All the computrons in the world won't help someone who can't think coherently about how to use them. As I read it, Tony was - rightly - sneering at the kind of intellectual laziness that doesn't bother thinking about problems and assumes that they can be hit with enough CPU cycles, and if not, why, then the hardware must be insufficient. There's a world of difference between that and recognizing when using a stupid algorithm instead of a smart algorithm is the right answer because there are enough spare cycles available to support the resulting gain in, say, programmer time, which is the sort of thing I see you as - again, rightly - supporting. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 11 16:54:40 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 22:54:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: RL drive lubrication In-Reply-To: <443C0666.2010700@rogerwilco.org> from "J Blaser" at Apr 11, 6 01:41:26 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> for power supply checkout, I went ahead and removed the brush assemblies. > >> > > > > What did you remoce? Just the brush tips? Did you leave the motor, the > > microswitch, and the operating cam? Without those, you might have > > problems getting the drive to go ready. > > > > > Yes, I left the motor, cam, and switch. I just removed the actual brush > arm from the shaft, leaving everything else so that the logic would > 'think' the brush is still in place. Sorry if some of my questions were 'going over the bleeding obvious'... All too often I've found I've made assumptions about what the other chap has or has not done, and wasted a lot of time going along the wrong path. > > It's possible, but unlikely. I suppose you could start by looking at the > > output of the sector transducer (posibly after the amplifier circuit). > > That's what the drive uses as a speed reference anyway (the motor in the > > RL is not locked to the mains, unlike most other demountable hard drives, > > there is no change for 50/60Hz). See if the signal is stable and has the > > right frequency (compare it with the same signal in another working drive). > > > Excellent advice. I will try this. I do have a scope, though I'm more I think the printset is on Bitsavers (if not, I have it). If you can't find the right point to look at this signal, let me know, I'll get out the prints and tell you what pin of what IC to look at. > of a software geek rather than a hardware engineer! :) I just find it > interesting that both of these drives (the 'dirty' set) exhibit the same > behavior vs. the 'clean' set, when all else is the same, i.e., > controller, etc. I may be fixating on the noise as the cause of no > READY indication, but maybe it's something else. Another 'obvious' question : You have made sure the head lock is not fitted on the 'dirty drives'? That would stop it going ready. > I'll begin here, and see if this resolves the noises I'm hearing. I > still hope that IF the lubrication helps to steady the RPM, it might let > the drives go READY. I think there's some kind of grounding brush on the spindle, visible under the little cover on the bottom of the drive. That can, I suspect, make odd noises, but it shouldn't stop the thing going ready. > > No, you can remove and replace the spindle without upseting the heads. In > > any case, the RL drive has an embedded servo burst in each sector header, > > so head alignemnt is quite easy (you need a 'scope, but no special > > alignment disk, any normal disk will do). > > > > > I was just worried that there might be some vertical alignment issues if > the spindle assembly wasn't put back correctly. I have no idea if there > are shimming or 'leveling' screws that would assist in making sure that There are no leveling screws, and AFAIK no shims either. Vertical alignment is not _too_ critical -- the heads fly rememebr, so will align themselves to the platter surface. I think all you have to do is make sure the mounting faces on the chassis and spindle housing are clean, put the spindle in place and tighten the screws evenly. > the platter is aligned vertically (along its axis) so that the heads > have the proper 'flying height' for both surfaces of the platter. -tony From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Apr 11 17:05:00 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 15:05:00 -0700 Subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access? In-Reply-To: <002701c65d93$05186ba0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <002701c65d93$05186ba0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <443C280C.8050008@msm.umr.edu> John Allain wrote: >Anyway, I'm getting the impression that there's no way to log in to >5.3 without a password (single mode is even pwded). So, anybody >know an exploit or have an IRIX 5.3 CD that they can sell,copy or >loan to me? > > If you get access to the IRIX cd, or a bootable media, you may be able to interrupt the install process and mount the hard drive, if you can get the device names for the hard drive with root (/etc). on solaris, you can use the format command to print out a list of the existing media, and then exit format without doing anything. I don't know about IRIX. I have access to world.std.com, which is on a 16 way IRIX system, and their media seems to be mounted on /dev/dsk/dks7d5s7 for example. I suspect this is related to the driver name, and may be different for your smaller (I assume that you didnt get a 16 way server) system. I could send a request to Barry Shein and see if he or anyone on staff there could help unless you have already gotten something from a list observer / member here. Jim From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Apr 11 17:12:53 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 18:12:53 -0400 Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <443BD5E8.3090008@pacbell.net> References: <20060407214057.23540.qmail@web60813.mail.yahoo.com> <20060407214057.23540.qmail@web60813.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060411180221.05038e18@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jim Battle may have mentioned these words: >Tony Duell wrote: > >>Yes, back when engineers actually thought about things and didn't attempt >>to 'solve' problems by throwing computing power at them. [snippage] I agree with you, Jim, but: >Here is a thought experiment. If the designers of the some machine you admire> had access to the resources of today with the >constraints of today, do you think they'd still go about it the same way? That may very well depend on the machine in question, and the designer him/herself. The designers who built something "for the fun of it" and not to make a profit (the amount of possible/potential profit is immaterial, but the motive for designing said widget to begin with) said designer may very well employ the exact techniques now as they did then. Hobbies generally aren't profitable... ones that are rarely stay in "hobby" status. Removing profit from the equation actually relaxes a lot of the engineering constraints to be considered, as one can be a lot less efficient and "who cares." ;-) However, in a purely commercial context, I'd say that anyone who doesn't keep up with the newer tools available may well not be in business long. [[ How many ISPs still offer shell accounts & 1200baud access??? Very few, as there's no profit in it anymore. ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Tue Apr 11 17:38:54 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 16:38:54 -0600 Subject: RL drive lubrication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443C2FFE.2080504@rogerwilco.org> Tony Duell wrote: >> Yes, I left the motor, cam, and switch. I just removed the actual brush >> arm from the shaft, leaving everything else so that the logic would >> 'think' the brush is still in place. >> > > Sorry if some of my questions were 'going over the bleeding obvious'... > All too often I've found I've made assumptions about what the other chap > has or has not done, and wasted a lot of time going along the wrong path. > No worries. It's good to have someone look over my shoulder helping to make sure I'm not my usual complete idiot! :) Thanks! >>> See if the signal is stable and has the >>> right frequency (compare it with the same signal in another working drive). >>> >>> >> Excellent advice. I will try this. I do have a scope, though I'm more >> > > I think the printset is on Bitsavers (if not, I have it). If you can't > find the right point to look at this signal, let me know, I'll get out > the prints and tell you what pin of what IC to look at. > I'll check bitsavers. If I can't find what I need, I'll come back to you. > Another 'obvious' question : You have made sure the head lock is not > fitted on the 'dirty drives'? That would stop it going ready. > > Another valid question. Yes, indeed, the head/actuator locking plate has been rotated to the 'un-locked' position. This might be the place to mention that these two 'dirty' drives had the heads already locked at the time of acquisition. I'm doubtful that they have been used in many, many years, since this indicates that the former owner had not tried them. I wonder....could the heads, having been in the retracted position for so long (years and years), be kind of 'glued' in place by dust/grime/dry grease, thus no READY indication? Hmm...a question: is it advisable to move the heads manually to test this, or am I better off keeping my fat fingers out of the head actuator area (which I've religiously done to date)? > I think there's some kind of grounding brush on the spindle, visible > under the little cover on the bottom of the drive. That can, I suspect, > make odd noises, but it shouldn't stop the thing going ready. > > This, too, is a good point. I do recall reading about the grounding 'point' in the Maintenance Manual. I'll check this also. >> I was just worried that there might be some vertical alignment issues if >> the spindle assembly wasn't put back correctly. I have no idea if there >> are shimming or 'leveling' screws that would assist in making sure that >> > > There are no leveling screws, and AFAIK no shims either. Vertical > alignment is not _too_ critical -- the heads fly rememebr, so will align > themselves to the platter surface. I think all you have to do is make > sure the mounting faces on the chassis and spindle housing are clean, put > the spindle in place and tighten the screws evenly. > > Well, this is good news, at least. I hope not, but I may end up removing the spindle eventually, and this let's me be more comfortable about that possibility. Again, thanks for the advice, Tony. It might be a day or two for me to get back to this project, but I'll post my results as they are gathered. J. From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Apr 11 17:53:05 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 17:53:05 -0500 Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604112154.RAA07456@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200604112154.RAA07456@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <443C3351.6060601@pacbell.net> der Mouse wrote: >>> As an engineer with more than twenty years of experience, I found >>> what you said insulting and misinformed. >> I agree. > > I do and I don't. > > Certainly you two are right in that CPU power is a tool, useful for > many purposes, and only a stupid engineer disdains a useful tool > without good reason. > > But on the other hand, Tony is also right in that CPU crunch is no > substitute for intelligent thought. All the computrons in the world > won't help someone who can't think coherently about how to use them. I didn't claim otherwise. Like I said, there have always been dunderheads. More CPU power will just give them the ability to make mistakes faster. > As I read it, Tony was - rightly - sneering at the kind of intellectual > laziness that doesn't bother thinking about problems and assumes that > they can be hit with enough CPU cycles, and if not, why, then the > hardware must be insufficient. There's a world of difference between > that and recognizing when using a stupid algorithm instead of a smart > algorithm is the right answer because there are enough spare cycles > available to support the resulting gain in, say, programmer time, which > is the sort of thing I see you as - again, rightly - supporting. But that isn't what Tony said; he said: > Yes, back when engineers actually thought about things and didn't > attempt to 'solve' problems by throwing computing power at them. > -tony That says that engineers today don't solve probems anymore; he didn't say that he detests engineers who are bad. To inject a little levity, someone told me this one a number of years ago: There are two styles of design: correct by construction, or construct by correction. It is cute, but in real life engineering is a combination of both. Even in the old days, things were prototyped, and designs didn't launch from draftsman hand to production. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 11 18:34:24 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 17:34:24 -0600 Subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 11 Apr 2006 15:05:00 -0700. <443C280C.8050008@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: In article <443C280C.8050008 at msm.umr.edu>, jim stephens writes: > I have access to world.std.com, which is on a 16 way IRIX system, > and their media seems to be mounted on /dev/dsk/dks7d5s7 for example. > I suspect this is related to the driver name, and may be different for > your smaller (I assume that you didnt get a 16 way server) system. If memory serves me properly, the numbers in that file name correlate to the SCSI id of the drive? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Apr 11 18:35:22 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 19:35:22 -0400 Subject: Black Box KVM Message-ID: <000a01c65dc0$9acf51e0$0b01a8c0@game> I recently won a BlackBox KVM Model SW939a and was wondering if anybody had one of BlackBoxs old catalogs with information on this unit. Their website has absolutely nothing on it and I have not been able to google anything either. The unit is a 12 port ADB KVM by the looks of it, I don't see a connector in the picture for power input or anything. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks TZ From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue Apr 11 18:59:09 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 19:59:09 -0400 Subject: Sun Graphics tower Message-ID: Hi All, Anyone have any interest in a Sun Graphics Tower 4/75GT. I guess this was the 3D Unit for a Sun Workstation (correct me if I'm wrong). This unit is free for the taking. Pickup welcomed (North of Detroit). The unit is kind of large and weighs over 50 lbs, shipping could be arranged but would be expensive. My zip is 48047 if you want to check rates. If I don't get any interest, it's going out in the trash. The unit has been in my garage for several, several, years. I'm not a Sun guy so I don't know much about it. Rob From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Apr 11 19:13:12 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 20:13:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <443C3351.6060601@pacbell.net> Message-ID: > I didn't claim otherwise. Like I said, there have always been > dunderheads. More CPU power will just give them the ability to make > mistakes faster. However, there are many instances when the raw horsepower of modern CPUs can be used with poor algorithms, and still have the same result in the end. If I have a nice fast microcontroller, and I need to do a sort of a bunch of numbers, in many cases I can make a brain dead choice and use something like a bubble sort and get away with it. If my engineering manager knew I spent a whole day trying to find a perfect sort, yet the end result makes no difference to the rest of the project - well, my raise my not be too hot that year. The same is true for storage - semi or disk. Many times one can get away with not being a hero engineer. There is a lot more to engineering than what goes on in the lab. > It is cute, but in real life engineering is a combination of both. Even > in the old days, things were prototyped, and designs didn't launch from > draftsman hand to production. Resulting in miles of cool stock movie footage of rockets blowing up, amongst other things. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Apr 11 19:15:23 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 20:15:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060411180221.05038e18@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: > Removing profit from the equation actually relaxes a lot of the engineering > constraints to be considered, Most of them, actually. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From rick at rickmurphy.net Tue Apr 11 19:19:01 2006 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 20:19:01 -0400 Subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060411201800.0252d918@rickmurphy.net> At 07:34 PM 4/11/2006, Richard wrote: >In article <443C280C.8050008 at msm.umr.edu>, > jim stephens writes: > > > I have access to world.std.com, which is on a 16 way IRIX system, > > and their media seems to be mounted on /dev/dsk/dks7d5s7 for example. > > I suspect this is related to the driver name, and may be different for > > your smaller (I assume that you didnt get a 16 way server) system. > >If memory serves me properly, the numbers in that file name correlate >to the SCSI id of the drive? Sort of. dks7d5s7 is controller dks7, drive 5, slice (partition) 7. -Rick From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 11 19:48:12 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 18:48:12 -0600 Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 11 Apr 2006 20:13:12 -0400. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > [...] in many cases I can make a brain dead choice and use > something like a bubble sort and get away with it. Modern container classes already have a sort method, so you don't even need to remember how to implement bubble sort :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 11 19:58:25 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 17:58:25 -0700 Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604111758250601.53DE4B13@10.0.0.252> On 4/11/2006 at 8:13 PM William Donzelli wrote: >If I have a nice fast microcontroller, and I need to do a sort of a >bunch of numbers, in many cases I can make a brain dead choice and use >something like a bubble sort and get away with it. If my engineering >manager knew I spent a whole day trying to find a perfect sort, yet the >end result makes no difference to the rest of the project - well, my raise >my not be too hot that year. Wonder why everyone mentions "bubble sort" when they mean a relatively inefficient sort? A selection sort is actually much slower ( for n elements, you make n-1 passes comparing n elements). But maybe not--on some SIMD systems with high startup overhead per instruction, the selection sort can be the fastest, for n less than some suprisingly large number, say 1000. On the other hand, if the sort represents a small enough part of the entire job, it may not matter what's used. I wrote a compiler that used a selection sort for the symbol cross-reference. Typically, the program was driving a printer and number of symbols was fairly small (less than 100)--optimizing would have taken more memory and not contributed a single second to reducing the elapsed time to get a listing. The engineering part IMOHO is knowing what and how much of something to use. Cheers, Chuck From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue Apr 11 20:01:23 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 21:01:23 -0400 Subject: Some Apple IIgs Message-ID: <4DE45F36-F3BC-4115-A4D4-A813707366F0@colourfull.com> Hi All, I have some Apple IIgs 's that I'm getting rid of here's the breakdown: IIgs and 3 1/2" drive - $8.00 plus shipping IIgs and 5 1/4" drive - $6.00 plus shipping IIgs Woz edition and 3 1/2" drive - $15.00 plus shipping (just computers and drives) I can power them up to see if they come up but I don't know if I can locate a boot disk. Anyways, local pickup is always welcomed (north of detroit). Shipping would be about 20 lbs from 48047. Thanks Rob From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Apr 11 20:31:32 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 21:31:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604111758250601.53DE4B13@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > Wonder why everyone mentions "bubble sort" when they mean a relatively > inefficient sort? Because it is easy to pick on. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Apr 11 20:32:16 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 21:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Modern container classes already have a sort method, so you don't even > need to remember how to implement bubble sort :-). I think in your wisecrack you have reached enlightenment. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 11 21:42:20 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 21:42:20 Subject: Exxon series 500? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060411214220.4d0f1284@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Anybody know what this is? I found three boxs of new 5 1/4" disks for one today. I picked them up becuase they're 96TPI DS DD (aka DS QD) and I can use them in my SB-180 puters and Nicolet DSO. I'm just wondeering about the computer that they're supposed to go with. Joe From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Apr 11 20:58:06 2006 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 21:58:06 EDT Subject: Black Box KVM Message-ID: <36e.1d5d591.316db8ae@aol.com> In a message dated 4/11/2006 7:41:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, teoz at neo.rr.com writes: I recently won a BlackBox KVM Model SW939a and was wondering if anybody had one of BlackBoxs old catalogs with information on this unit. Their website has absolutely nothing on it and I have not been able to google anything either. The unit is a 12 port ADB KVM by the looks of it, I don't see a connector in the picture for power input or anything. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks TZ ------------------ I've got the perfect answer for you. Call black box at ANY time and they'll help you. I have a 4port KVM from them and had some questions about it, but it was Saturday night. Anyway I called their support line, and shortly thereafter that night, a support guy called me! He was helpful and got all my questions answered. I was simply amazed at the topnotch support. If only every company could be like this. From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Apr 11 21:00:20 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 22:00:20 -0400 Subject: Exxon series 500? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 11 Apr 2006 21:42:20." <3.0.6.16.20060411214220.4d0f1284@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200604120200.k3C20Kqo019977@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Joe R." wrote: > Anybody know what this is? I found three boxs of new 5 1/4" disks for one >today. I picked them up becuase they're 96TPI DS DD (aka DS QD) and I can >use them in my SB-180 puters and Nicolet DSO. I'm just wondeering about >the computer that they're supposed to go with. I'm having some sort of flashback to something like "Exxon Data Systems" and... mmm.. very fuzzy... a small development group in... PA?... maybe it was some sort of CP/M computer? I seem to recall having used one of these and bumping into some odd story about how Exxon got into the minicomputer business. There's something else else significant attached to those nurons but I don't recall right now. For some reason I needed to use one of those machines long ago. -brad From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Apr 11 21:08:30 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 22:08:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060411180221.05038e18@mail.30below.com> References: <20060407214057.23540.qmail@web60813.mail.yahoo.com> <20060407214057.23540.qmail@web60813.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060411180221.05038e18@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200604120209.WAA08887@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [[ How many ISPs still offer shell accounts & 1200baud access??? Very > few, as there's no profit in it anymore. ]] There are customers. Not lots, but I know someone who's looking for shell accounts right now. (Wants to monitor his own systems from places as widely disparate as possible.) 1200 baud-- what modern dialup modem doesn't do 1200? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Apr 11 21:10:23 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 22:10:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604120211.WAA08910@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Modern container classes already have a sort method, so you don't > even need to remember how to implement bubble sort :-). Because we all know that all new code is written in environments supporting modern container classes. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bkotaska at charter.net Tue Apr 11 21:55:18 2006 From: bkotaska at charter.net (Bill Kotaska) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 21:55:18 -0500 Subject: Harris Micro-12 Message-ID: <000801c65ddc$885507a0$0c00a8c0@ath700> I have here a Harris Micro-12 (HB-61000). This is a single board computer with keypad and display using the Harris version of the 6100 PDP-8 CPU. Unfortunately, it is non-functional (dead) at the present time. Scoping the CPU after reset leads me to believe the ROM might be bad. Anyone have any info on this system? I have a data sheet which indicates that it orignally shipped with very thorough documentation. Thanks, Bill From fernande at internet1.net Tue Apr 11 21:25:54 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 22:25:54 -0400 Subject: Sun Type 4 keyboard problem, help needed Message-ID: <443C6532.2040606@internet1.net> Hey All, I've got a Sun type 4 keyboard that I disassembled, cleaned and put back together. It doesn't work. I've cleaned plenty of computer parts before, so I doubt my washing/cleaning methods are at fault. Do any common mistakes exist for re-assembly of these keyboards? I suppose it could have been bad beforehand...... I've bought it as surplus, and have no history with it. Furthermore, the IPX I'm working with recognized it with only the small board connected, but with the small board unplugged from the board with the key contacts. What do these keyboards use for a cable? I picked up what I think it the right cable from the same surplus shop I bought the keyboard. Thanks, Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Apr 11 22:05:09 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 22:05:09 -0500 Subject: IRIX 6.2 question Message-ID: Bear with me here - I'm within 1 month of being on-topic. I have a odd swmgr/inst problem on my 6.2 machine. I've installed 6.2 base, the latest recommended/required tardist (Sept. '99), POSIX and Y2k. Now wenever I launch SWMGR, it complains "Syntax error in mach expression TARGOS >= 1274627340" I've figured out roughly what's going on (something doesn't like a certain software level identifier) but I'm not sure really what's going on or what to do about it. Does anyone else have this problem? USENET is silent - unusual on a SGI question. trailer question - has anyone tried extracting the dev_IRIX4 files from IDO5.3 and using them on IRIX 4.0.5? Haven't tried moving them over to DouglasIRIS yet (4.0.5/3.3.2 dualie), but I'm rolling the idea around. file indicates that they are the ecoff binaries . . . back and forth, I know - don't have much of an attention span, I guess. The CADDStation is still progressing, though. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Apr 11 22:21:29 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 22:21:29 -0500 Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <443BD5E8.3090008@pacbell.net> References: <20060407214057.23540.qmail@web60813.mail.yahoo.com> <443BD5E8.3090008@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <443C7239.2010406@brutman.com> When you had a 4Mhz machine with 640KB each cycle and each KB of ram were precious. I spent an entire day tuning a loop that computes UDP checksums on a 4.77Mhz machine because my measurements showed that a good deal of my time was in that loop. It was worth rewriting the perfectly good C for loop into inline ASM to squeeze a few hundred thousand cycles per 1K packet. On the early architectures I did professional work on (AS/400) we were exceedingly careful to keep data structures aligned on cache boundaries, have read-only and read/write areas in different cache lines, etc. Those extra interrupts for bad alignment or extra cache traffic were very noticeable, even on faster machines. But now with CPUs doing 2GHz+, I can afford to blow a few cycles. Goodness knows, the OS and software that I'm building on top of are blowing quite a few for me already. Ever stop to think how much the eye candy on a Windows XP costs to run? Or even on a Linux machine .. lots of bloat now. Machines used to be more expensive than programmers. Now programmers are generally far more expensive than machines. There is less need to squeeze every cycle. The goal now is to squeeze every productive minute out of the expensive resource, which is now the human. Only at the very high end of computer science (super computers) do people still go after absolute performance .. for the real world, 'good enough' is the rule. Rational Application Developer 6 needs a 2GB machine to run nicely. Sounds horrible, until you knock out a web application in a day or two. This is an extreme example, but you get the point. Mike From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Apr 11 22:35:44 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 20:35:44 -0700 Subject: Exxon series 500? In-Reply-To: <200604120200.k3C20Kqo019977@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060411214220.4d0f1284@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200604120200.k3C20Kqo019977@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: The Exxon 500s were dedicated word processing systems that ran a Z80 I seem to remember. I think they could be multiplexed, several to one printer, daisy wheel printers. 5 1/4 half height DDQD drives. Separate monitor and keyboard. The pizza box had a dimple in the center for the monitor. I think there was a CPM option. I had several about 1990 and never found a use for one. The printers were extremely heavy. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From geneb at simpits.com Tue Apr 11 22:41:36 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 20:41:36 -0700 Subject: New goodies at retroarchive.org In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443C76F0.5090302@simpits.com> I've added many early DOS versions in self-extracting image format as well as a number of IBM language compilers for DOS such as Fortran, Cobol and Pascal. Sorry it took so bloody long to get the site updated! g. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 11 23:10:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 21:10:58 -0700 Subject: Exxon series 500? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060411214220.4d0f1284@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060411214220.4d0f1284@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200604112110580382.548E9123@10.0.0.252> On 4/11/2006 at 9:42 PM Joe R. wrote: >Anybody know what this is? I found three boxs of new 5 1/4" disks for one >today. I picked them up becuase they're 96TPI DS DD (aka DS QD) and I can >use them in my SB-180 puters and Nicolet DSO. I'm just wondeering about >the computer that they're supposed to go with. Didn't Exxon have an office products division during the early 80's? I think Qyx and Qwip were two of the brands--and Vydec seems to ring a bell. IIRC, mostly word processing and the like. Cheers, Chuck From spc at conman.org Wed Apr 12 00:44:49 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 01:44:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <443C7239.2010406@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Apr 11, 2006 10:21:29 PM Message-ID: <20060412054450.9EA4D73029@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Michael B. Brutman once stated: > > > When you had a 4Mhz machine with 640KB each cycle and each KB of ram > were precious. I spent an entire day tuning a loop that computes UDP > checksums on a 4.77Mhz machine because my measurements showed that a > good deal of my time was in that loop. It was worth rewriting the > perfectly good C for loop into inline ASM to squeeze a few hundred > thousand cycles per 1K packet. I remember my friend writing a maze generating program (drew a maze on the 320x200 graphics screen) in BASIC that took 20 minutes to run on a PCjr. He then rewrote it in Turbo Pascal, cutting the time down to 5 minutes. I then took the Pascal code and spent a few hours rewriting it in Assembly---cut the time to about 30 seconds if I recall (although my random number generator left something to be desired---about 10% of the time it would break down something awful). A few years later, I rewrote it yet again in C, for a 33MHz SGI (effectively the same resolution---a 320x200 window) that ran in less than 5 seconds. If I drew the maze in memory then copied it, less than a second. Time marches on. A program I wrote in said same SGI took almost a year to run. A few months ago the same program would have taken I think 2 days to run on a quad-Pentium machine. -spc (Still miss that SGI machine ... but I don't miss the hardware headaches I had with it ... ) From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Apr 12 01:16:02 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 23:16:02 -0700 Subject: Sun Type 4 keyboard problem, help needed In-Reply-To: <443C6532.2040606@internet1.net> References: <443C6532.2040606@internet1.net> Message-ID: <443C9B22.9080308@msm.umr.edu> C Fernandez wrote: > Hey All, > > I've got a Sun type 4 keyboard that I disassembled, cleaned and put > back together. It doesn't work. I've cleaned plenty of computer > parts before, so I doubt my washing/cleaning methods are at fault. Do > any common mistakes exist for re-assembly of these keyboards? I > suppose it could have been bad beforehand...... I've bought it as > surplus, and have no history with it. Furthermore, the IPX I'm > working with recognized it with only the small board connected, but > with the small board unplugged from the board with the key contacts. > > What do these keyboards use for a cable? I picked up what I think it > the right cable from the same surplus shop I bought the keyboard. > > Thanks, 8 pin din straight thru. same as type 5. the lights on most sun keyboards are used to blink out a type of post code as they come up. as you know if the keyboard is connected, the output will go to the serial port, and the frame buffer display will blank, or not be initialized. sorry i never have taken on apart to suggest reassembly problems. I guess you could check if there are any light displays as the ipx comes up. I assume that the "Stop" A is not working to get it to interrupt its boot up. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 12 01:18:00 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 00:18:00 -0600 Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 11 Apr 2006 22:10:23 -0400. <200604120211.WAA08910@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: In article <200604120211.WAA08910 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, der Mouse writes: > > Modern container classes already have a sort method, so you don't > > even need to remember how to implement bubble sort :-). > > Because we all know that all new code is written in environments > supporting modern container classes. Back under your bridge! Back! :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 12 01:27:48 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 23:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: xa 2.3.0 6502/C02/816 crossassembler Message-ID: <200604120627.k3C6Rm17016522@floodgap.com> After a very long time, xa 2.3.0 is released, the latest version of Andre Fachat's 6502 cross-assembler package for 6502, R65C02 and 65816. This version includes multiple bug fixes (particularly for @ casting to 24-bit in 65816 mode, proper warnings and management of forward-defined labels, last line w/o a new line now gets assembled correctly), some cleanup, and new man-based documentation. There are also various other custodial fixes documented in the unified ChangeLog. This should now be considered the sole supported version. In addition, xa will in the future be accompanied by dxa, its companion disassembler. This is a rudely hacked version of Marko Makela's d65 0.2.1 with some extra output features added, altered defaults, some repaired bugs and the ability to parse and understand xa-format label files. It does not yet support 65816 opcodes and probably has some other bugs, so it is a separate download so far. This will be (slowly) worked on and then eventually merged into the formal xa distribution. Both packages are in ANSI C and are available under GPL from http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/xa/ Please report any bugs and my apologies for the long delay in getting this out. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- /etc/motd: /earth is 98% full. please delete anyone you can. --------------- From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Apr 12 01:29:25 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 23:29:25 -0700 Subject: IRIX 6.2 question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443C9E45.9050704@msm.umr.edu> Scott Quinn wrote: >Bear with me here - I'm within 1 month of being >on-topic. > >I have a odd swmgr/inst problem on my 6.2 machine. >I've installed 6.2 base, the latest recommended/required >tardist (Sept. '99), POSIX and Y2k. >Now wenever I launch SWMGR, it complains >"Syntax error in mach expression TARGOS >= 1274627340" >I've figured out roughly what's going on >(something doesn't like a certain software level identifier) >but I'm not sure really what's going on or what to do about it. >Does anyone else have this problem? USENET is silent - >unusual on a SGI question. > > i googled for "mach" and the number and got a suggestion or two suggesting that you are using a library that has an install package format that is incompatable with the os revision you are installing on. suggested manual install in one post, and some other things elsewhere. this happens on sun pkg installs at times when they are not complete. Jim From fernande at internet1.net Wed Apr 12 01:53:27 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 02:53:27 -0400 Subject: Sun Type 4 keyboard problem, help needed In-Reply-To: <443C9B22.9080308@msm.umr.edu> References: <443C6532.2040606@internet1.net> <443C9B22.9080308@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <443CA3E7.40206@internet1.net> jim stephens wrote: > 8 pin din straight thru. same as type 5. I'll check the cable with a meter then. > the lights on most sun keyboards are used to blink out a type of post > code as they come up. All of the lights blink once, simultaneously, with a beep. > as you > know if the keyboard is connected, the output will go to the serial > port, and the frame buffer display > will blank, or not be initialized. Right, I have a terminal emulator monitoring the serial port. It tells me that the keyboard isn't detected. However, if the two boards inside the keyboard aren't connected together, it will recognize that a keyboard is connected, but then tells me it is defaulting to the US layout. That part makes sense since the dip switches aren't connected at that point. > sorry i never have taken on apart to suggest reassembly problems. I > guess you could check if there > are any light displays as the ipx comes up. I assume that the "Stop" A > is not working to get it to > interrupt its boot up. I have Openboot configured to not autoboot. Although, since I don't know much about Sun hardware, I don't know why that would be important :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Apr 12 08:57:51 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:57:51 -0400 Subject: DecWRL OM tool? binary recompilation? Message-ID: <200604121357.k3CDvpqf014910@mwave.heeltoe.com> Just curious if anyone here knows anything about the "OM" tool which the folks at DECWRL produced. The web pages are gone now but they're still in google's cache. It's a tool which will analyze binary files and produce an intermediate RTL description which will allow you to retarget the code. (shew - that has to be at least slightly on topic :-) I'm fooling around with some old Alpha code and eyeing EM64T. Hand translation is tedious and error prone. I've been doing automatic translations from Alpha asm to C as a test, but I'm sure an RTL approach would be much better. -brad From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 12 11:45:35 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:45:35 -0600 Subject: RT-11 System Release Notes (Mar 1979) available Message-ID: I notice not many RT-11 docs are online, so I'm scanning in the manuals that I have... feel free to copy to bitsavers, Al. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 12 11:54:28 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:54:28 -0600 Subject: RT-11 System Release Notes (Mar 1979) available In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:45:35 -0600. Message-ID: Ooops, here's the correct URL: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Apr 12 13:00:16 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 11:00:16 -0700 Subject: Sun Type 4 keyboard problem, help needed In-Reply-To: <443CA3E7.40206@internet1.net> References: <443C6532.2040606@internet1.net> <443C9B22.9080308@msm.umr.edu> <443CA3E7.40206@internet1.net> Message-ID: <443D4030.6090803@msm.umr.edu> C Fernandez wrote: > jim stephens wrote: > > > I have Openboot configured to not autoboot. Although, since I don't > know much about Sun hardware, I don't know why that would be important > :-) > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > "stop" is on some sun keyboards "L1" (dont recall which). This is also the upper left key on the left hand bank of 10 keys if there are different legends on your keyboard. It is useful to do this, as you end up with a firmware prompt at that point, and can type "boot s" to boot single user. if you have sun 4.1, this is all you need to crack the root password, as you can in older versions of sun 4 directly get a root prompt in the boot sequence and clear the root password. Now days, that requires a solaris boot cd, and starting (but not completing an install). this is all covered in faqs, so I wont repeat more than this. did you have partial functionality with this keyboard before disassembly, or was there possibly some stuck keys then, and still are? that is the thing that sort of jumps out at me. the beep at startup is good, as are flashing all lights. if it goes for a while and never blinks a code, that is good as well. on a normal startup, I don't think you get any codes. this would tend to suggest that things are okay at that point. It sounds like if you can't find a stuck key (maybe) or some other problem, then you may have to go and get another keyboard. they are'nt so expensive as to preclude this. Jim From RMeenaks at olf.com Wed Apr 12 13:41:53 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 14:41:53 -0400 Subject: Sun Type 4 keyboard problem, help needed Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701748C44@cpexchange.olf.com> On a somewhat related note, how do you do a L1-A using a raritan SUN KVM box??? Thanks, Ram From fernande at internet1.net Wed Apr 12 13:53:08 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 14:53:08 -0400 Subject: Sun Type 4 keyboard problem, help needed In-Reply-To: <443D4030.6090803@msm.umr.edu> References: <443C6532.2040606@internet1.net> <443C9B22.9080308@msm.umr.edu> <443CA3E7.40206@internet1.net> <443D4030.6090803@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <443D4C94.6020806@internet1.net> jim stephens wrote: > "stop" is on some sun keyboards "L1" (dont recall which). This is also > the upper left key on the left hand bank of 10 keys > if there are different legends on your keyboard. > > It is useful to do this, as you end up with a firmware prompt at that > point, and can type "boot s" to boot single user. if you > have sun 4.1, this is all you need to crack the root password, as you > can in older versions of sun 4 directly get a root > prompt in the boot sequence and clear the root password. > > Now days, that requires a solaris boot cd, and starting (but not > completing an install). this is all covered in faqs, so > I wont repeat more than this. I already installed NetBSD on the IPX using a terminal emulator. I had to take care of the dead NVRAM battery first, though :-) > > did you have partial functionality with this keyboard before > disassembly, or was there possibly some stuck > keys then, and still are? that is the thing that sort of jumps out at me. I didn't try the board before dis-assembly. I purchased the IPX, then the keyboard, then got a monitor (that apparently won't work with the cgsix). > It sounds like if you can't find a stuck key (maybe) or some other > problem, then you may have to go and > get another keyboard. they are'nt so expensive as to preclude this. I'm wondering if maybe the green board with all the contacts has a bad component. I was hoping I had re-assembled something wrong and was grounding something out. If I can find another keyboard, maybe I'll try swapping the case and keys since my broken one is so clean now. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Apr 12 15:01:14 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 13:01:14 -0700 Subject: Sun Type 4 keyboard problem, help needed In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701748C44@cpexchange.olf.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701748C44@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <443D5C8A.2020503@msm.umr.edu> Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: >On a somewhat related note, how do you do a L1-A using a raritan SUN KVM >box??? > >Thanks, > >Ram > > > > I have a raritan converter that breaks out a 13W3 video, and sun keyboard to vga, keyboard, and mouse. I hope that is what you are talking about. There are also rose kvm's that are all sun, and there are cybex boxes with sun XPAC -> sun cables, but with keyboard, video, and mouse that are PS/2 and vga. Anyway, I have hunted for maybe 4 years on every web site I can find and have never found a way to emit the keycodes to do that, or what way to do it. I always try the monkey imitation first (I'm good at that) and tried every control, key, function key, system function key, alt, shift you name it, and never got a hint that any of them was doing the "stop" type extra function keys. I worked for a company that had a business relation with raritan and obtained these soon afterward in an independent junk by for my own use. In the mean time, their relation with raritan soured horribly, so I could not ask any questions like this. I have found that raritan is into shipping a lot of product (good for them) but don't have a lot of people at the level to answer these questions on older product. If you need help installing your stuff, and it is current good, help with old, rely in the web site (which I've never found these on) or nothing. I have several new in the box with raritan papers. All that was on the paperwork was raritan support info, (phone numbers), fcc info, etc. and nothing indicating usage. Hope someone has some of these or knows the trick. Jim From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Apr 12 15:05:34 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:05:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sun Type 4 keyboard problem, help needed In-Reply-To: <443D5C8A.2020503@msm.umr.edu> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701748C44@cpexchange.olf.com> <443D5C8A.2020503@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, jim stephens wrote: > Anyway, I have hunted for maybe 4 years on every web site I can find and > have never found a way to emit the keycodes to do that, or what way to > do it. I always try the monkey imitation first (I'm good at that) and > tried every control, key, function key, system function key, alt, shift > you name it, and never got a hint that any of them was doing the "stop" > type extra function keys. If you're talking about the Raritan APSSUN converter (as Ram was), here's the key map (courtesy of Gene Buckle): Pause/Break + A - STOP Again - F2 Props - F3 Undo - F4 Front - F5 Copy - F6 Open - F7 Paste - F8 Find - F9 Cut - F10 Help - F11 Mute - F12 Compose - * (keypad) Vol + - + (keypad) Vol - - - (keypad) Combo keys are Scroll Lock or Ctrl+Alt. eg. Scroll Lock + F7 = Open. I had asked this question back in January, and Gene happened to remember seeing this box with the docs in it. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From RMeenaks at olf.com Wed Apr 12 15:07:41 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:07:41 -0400 Subject: Sun Type 4 keyboard problem, help needed Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701748C60@cpexchange.olf.com> Mike sent me this, which is for the APSSUN converter box. This is the same box that I have: Ram On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > That is the one I have.. Here's the rest of the key mappings for the APSSUN: Pause/Break + A - STOP Again - F2 Props - F3 Undo - F4 Front - F5 Copy - F6 Open - F7 Paste - F8 Find - F9 Cut - F10 Help - F11 Mute - F12 Compose - * (keypad) Vol + - + (keypad) Vol - - - (keypad) Combo keys are Scroll Lock or Ctrl+Alt. eg. Scroll Lock + F7 = Open. From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Apr 12 16:01:24 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 17:01:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: <443B3186.5020000@gmail.com> Message-ID: > And 3745's are getting as cheap as 3174's nowadays. I think you mean FREE. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Apr 12 18:13:13 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:13:13 -0500 Subject: Buroughs L5000 available Message-ID: <20060412221411.SIXN8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> I was in Montreal today picking up some goodies*, and the guy showed me a Buroughs L5000 accounting machine - too big for me, but he would love it to find a good home. It's BIG - the size of a good sized desk. The schematics that he had with it show a date of 1966... Has a keyboard, what appears to be a printer of some sort, and a paper tape reader. Thats all I know Located in Laval, outside of Montreal, Quebec Canada. Would be a monster to ship! * I know - what goodies? - Complete TRS-80 Model II, main unit, keyboard, drive-expansion unit with three drives - the honkin big TRS-80 "line printer", and a TRS-80 daisy. Tons of software (more than a dozen boxes of disks, many original) and complete documentation (huge stack of TRS-80 binders). - ADDS Mentor 2000 Can anyone tell me anything about this? Worth keeping? (It's fairly big). Got some manuals, but no media. - Some odds & ends. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 12 16:55:51 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 22:55:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: RL drive lubrication In-Reply-To: <443C2FFE.2080504@rogerwilco.org> from "J Blaser" at Apr 11, 6 04:38:54 pm Message-ID: > > Sorry if some of my questions were 'going over the bleeding obvious'... > > All too often I've found I've made assumptions about what the other chap > > has or has not done, and wasted a lot of time going along the wrong path. > > > No worries. It's good to have someone look over my shoulder helping to > make sure I'm not my usual complete idiot! :) Thanks! I could tell you many stories of times when I've spent hours looking for a fault only to find I've not plugged it into the mains, or there's no fuse in the plug, or.... > >>> See if the signal is stable and has the > >>> right frequency (compare it with the same signal in another working drive). > >>> > >>> > >> Excellent advice. I will try this. I do have a scope, though I'm more > >> > > > > I think the printset is on Bitsavers (if not, I have it). If you can't > > find the right point to look at this signal, let me know, I'll get out > > the prints and tell you what pin of what IC to look at. > > > I'll check bitsavers. If I can't find what I need, I'll come back to you. >From memory, there are 3 versions of the logic board used in the RL01. The first oen is RL01-only, the other 2 can be used either in an RL01 or an RL02 with a jumper change. The last of those has many more testpoints than the earlier one. There are significant electronic differences between the first one and the other 2. My RL01 printset only covers the first version, for the others I look at the RL02 printset. The pocket service guide (is that on Bitsavers?) is probably the best reference to tell the boards apart. I have that that booklet too, and can tell you what to look for if you have problems. > > > Another 'obvious' question : You have made sure the head lock is not > > fitted on the 'dirty drives'? That would stop it going ready. > > > > > Another valid question. Yes, indeed, the head/actuator locking plate > has been rotated to the 'un-locked' position. This might be the place > to mention that these two 'dirty' drives had the heads already locked at > the time of acquisition. I'm doubtful that they have been used in many, > many years, since this indicates that the former owner had not tried them. > > I wonder....could the heads, having been in the retracted position for > so long (years and years), be kind of 'glued' in place by dust/grime/dry > grease, thus no READY indication? Hmm...a question: is it advisable to It's possible. > move the heads manually to test this, or am I better off keeping my fat > fingers out of the head actuator area (which I've religiously done to date)? What you want to avoid is touching the heads themselves (obviously) or letting the heads touch each other. What I would do is put a clean, folded, lens tissue between the head 'buttons', then carefully move the carriage towards the spindle. Try to keep the heads on the loading ramp, but the tissue should prevent any damage if you can't. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 12 17:01:10 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 23:01:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <443C3351.6060601@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at Apr 11, 6 05:53:05 pm Message-ID: > But that isn't what Tony said; he said: > > > Yes, back when engineers actually thought about things and didn't > > attempt to 'solve' problems by throwing computing power at them. > > -tony > > That says that engineers today don't solve probems anymore; he didn't > say that he detests engineers who are bad. If you're goign to be pedantic about it... I did not say that engineers could not think, or were incapable of thinking, or anything like that. I said, basically, that engineers no longer thought about problems, they threw computer power at them. Others have said that the modern way _is_ to use a CAD system and let it sort out the mess. Which rather confirms my point. [And no, I am not happy about this, and I'll bet most good engineers aren't eitehr. But apparently it's better to save $0.01 on each product than to make a good quality device that you could sell for $10 more. And noote I've not said that CAD systems are useless. I believe they're very useful tools, but like all tools there are times when they are appropriate and times when they are not. I also believe they have to be used with care and understnading. I do not accept the advertising lies that a CAD system will turn anyone into a good engineer. It won't. Period. ] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 12 17:05:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 23:05:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Exxon series 500? In-Reply-To: from "Paxton Hoag" at Apr 11, 6 08:35:44 pm Message-ID: > > The Exxon 500s were dedicated word processing systems that ran a Z80 I Weren't Zilog owned by Exxon Corporation at one point? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 12 17:11:36 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 23:11:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sun Type 4 keyboard problem, help needed In-Reply-To: <443D4C94.6020806@internet1.net> from "C Fernandez" at Apr 12, 6 02:53:08 pm Message-ID: > I didn't try the board before dis-assembly. I purchased the IPX, then > the keyboard, then got a monitor (that apparently won't work with the > cgsix). > > > It sounds like if you can't find a stuck key (maybe) or some other > > problem, then you may have to go and > > get another keyboard. they are'nt so expensive as to preclude this. > > I'm wondering if maybe the green board with all the contacts has a bad > component. I was hoping I had re-assembled something wrong and was > grounding something out. I've never seen one of these keyboards, but I'm assuming that there's an encoder board with a microcontroller (and maybe some other stuff) and a board of keyswitches, possibly with diodes. Again I'll assume it's a matrix-type keyboard (no other design would make sense). It should be farily easy to identify the row and column lines on the connections to the switch PCB. And then you could see if there are any obvious shorts in the matrix. -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 12 17:36:31 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 17:36:31 -0500 Subject: Buroughs L5000 available References: <20060412221411.SIXN8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <004401c65e81$8c2d02b0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Dave wrote.... > - ADDS Mentor 2000 > Can anyone tell me anything about this? Worth keeping? (It's fairly > big). > Got some manuals, but no media. The ADDS Mentor was a Pick (see footnote) Operating System/Database machine. It was not one of the most common ones, but it wasn't rare either. They had a very nice pick implementation but didn't do the best job marketing it, perhaps because they also were pushing unix ADDS machines at the same time. I personally think it's worth saving, but, not many people are pick-heads like me :) I know those machines (the OS at least) inside and out and could help you get it running. Pick's RDBMS is unique and interesting (to me!). Jay Footnote - Pick Operating System - also known as UniVerse, Unidata, Revelation, Reality, Sequel, Mentor, Zebra, OpenInsight (mostly), Ultimate, PR1ME Information, etc. etc. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Apr 12 17:40:12 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 15:40:12 -0700 Subject: Buroughs L5000 available In-Reply-To: <20060412221411.SIXN8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060412221411.SIXN8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <443D81CC.1050308@msm.umr.edu> Dave Dunfield wrote: >I was in Montreal tod > >- ADDS Mentor 2000 > Can anyone tell me anything about this? > > This is most likely a Pick machine. it probably took a tape to boot it. It may be a Z 8000 type machine, if it is Pick. They were one of the first ones to try to use the Z8000 in a system. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 12 17:44:07 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:44:07 -0600 Subject: Burroughs mainframes Message-ID: Speaking of Burroughs machines, are any of their big mainframes preserved anywhere? UDel had a B6700.... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 12 18:08:24 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 19:08:24 -0400 Subject: IBM hercules setup pics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443D8868.2040102@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> And 3745's are getting as cheap as 3174's nowadays. > > I think you mean FREE. They're still not free, if you want something eligible for service. Hobbyist market, sure. Peace... Sridhar From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Apr 12 18:52:09 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:52:09 -0500 Subject: Burroughs mainframes References: Message-ID: <002d01c65e8c$1e577bc0$21406b43@66067007> There was a guy in MN. that had a garage full of Burroughs mainframes and related items. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 5:44 PM Subject: Burroughs mainframes > Speaking of Burroughs machines, are any of their big mainframes > preserved anywhere? UDel had a B6700.... > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Apr 12 19:31:46 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 20:31:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Burroughs mainframes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Speaking of Burroughs machines, are any of their big mainframes > preserved anywhere? UDel had a B6700.... Very early in the history of this list a B6800 (I think) was offered to anyone that wanted it. It was in Australia. Do the archives go back that far? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Apr 12 19:33:23 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 20:33:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Burroughs mainframes In-Reply-To: <002d01c65e8c$1e577bc0$21406b43@66067007> Message-ID: > There was a guy in MN. that had a garage full of Burroughs mainframes and > related items. Maybe small mainframes (B1800 and the like), because big Burroughs machines were truely BIG. Did he had an old parking garage? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Apr 12 19:37:04 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 20:37:04 -0400 Subject: RL drive lubrication In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 12 Apr 2006 22:55:51 BST." Message-ID: <200604130037.k3D0b4hC017695@mwave.heeltoe.com> Tony Duell wrote: > >>From memory, there are 3 versions of the logic board used in the RL01. >The first oen is RL01-only, the other 2 can be used either in an RL01 or >an RL02 with a jumper change. The last of those has many more testpoints >than the earlier one. yup. I was just looking at this today. 54-12175 RL01 54-13531 v2 (RL01 or RL02) 54-14025 v3 I don't know about the v3 board. It may do them both also. I ended up with an RL02 today with no drive logic module and no fan. Everything else looks ok. If anyone has a RL02 V2 or V3 drve logic module they would part with, please let me know. (I'm also on the hunt for rk05 parts) -brad From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Apr 12 20:58:43 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 20:58:43 -0500 Subject: Mentor 2000/Pick - was: Buroughs L5000 available In-Reply-To: <004401c65e81$8c2d02b0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <20060413005938.UVEP8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Dave wrote.... > > - ADDS Mentor 2000 > > Can anyone tell me anything about this? Worth keeping? (It's fairly > > big). > > Got some manuals, but no media. > > The ADDS Mentor was a Pick (see footnote) Operating System/Database machine. > It was not one of the most common ones, but it wasn't rare either. They had > a very nice pick implementation but didn't do the best job marketing it, > perhaps because they also were pushing unix ADDS machines at the same time. > I personally think it's worth saving, but, not many people are pick-heads > like me :) I know those machines (the OS at least) inside and out and could > help you get it running. Pick's RDBMS is unique and interesting (to me!). > > Jay Thanks for the info Jay, it seems fairly impressive - It's got 16 DB-9 connectors (serial?) on the back - Is this a serious multi-user machine? I have some documentation, but not all that much (and no media), can you suggest any resources - Probably won't get to it for a while (still working on the Unisys), but eventually I'll be hungry for details! > Footnote - Pick Operating System - also known as UniVerse, Unidata, > Revelation, Reality, Sequel, Mentor, Zebra, OpenInsight (mostly), Ultimate, > PR1ME Information, etc. etc. > This is most likely a Pick machine. it probably took a tape to boot > it. It may be a Z 8000 type > machine, if it is Pick. They were one of the first ones to try to use > the Z8000 in a system. > > Jim Thanks Jim - indeed the only removable storage appears to be a QIC tape ... Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Apr 12 20:17:16 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 20:17:16 -0500 Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443DA69C.5020605@pacbell.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> But that isn't what Tony said; he said: >> >> > Yes, back when engineers actually thought about things and didn't >> > attempt to 'solve' problems by throwing computing power at them. >> > -tony >> >> That says that engineers today don't solve probems anymore; he didn't >> say that he detests engineers who are bad. > > If you're goign to be pedantic about it... > > I did not say that engineers could not think, or were incapable of > thinking, or anything like that. I said, basically, that engineers no > longer thought about problems, they threw computer power at them. I summarized your position as "engineers don't solve problems anymore"; you called me pedantic, misstated what I said apparently so you could disagree with it, and then you said: "engineers no longer thought about problems." Saying that "engineers no longer thought about problems" is untrue and insulting to those of us engineering. Engineers are solving problems daily, but they are different problems than you think are worthwhile. Tony, you appear to have the approach of a craftsman. You have the luxury of time to follow your interests. Most paid engineers, except a lucky few, don't get to follow their whim, have demanding price, performance, power, and packaging goals, and are under severe time constraints. By and large, those problems are not solved by throwing computing power at them. > Others have said that the modern way _is_ to use a CAD system and let it > sort out the mess. Which rather confirms my point. No, rather it shows that you like to set up a straw man that you can knock down. CAD systems don't sort out messes, and I doubt someone other than a vendor would claim that. If CAD systems could sort out messes, they would command a much higher price and rightfully would be used instead of engineers. If my job can be automated, it should, and I'd better have more tricks up my sleeve to draw a salary. > [And no, I am not happy about this, and I'll bet most good engineers > aren't eitehr. But apparently it's better to save $0.01 on each product > than to make a good quality device that you could sell for $10 more. Markets are often/usually segmented. If there is not a market for the more expensive, higher quality part, then it will die. It is regrettable only for the few who desire such a product but aren't willing to pay the cost to make it a profitable market segment. This phenomenon has nothing whatsoever to do with engineers or CAD systems. It is as true of toothpicks as it is of floppy disks and personal computers. Why are we discussing it? > And noote I've not said that CAD systems are useless. I believe they're > very useful tools, but like all tools there are times when they are > appropriate and times when they are not. I also believe they have to be > used with care and understnading. I do not accept the advertising lies > that a CAD system will turn anyone into a good engineer. It won't. > Period. ] We agree then, except the part where you said "engineers no longer thought about problems, they threw computer power at them." Which is where we started. Trying to making this a little more on topic of classic computers and not just a pissing match, many of us own machines that cost $20,000 (say) when new that we picked up for next to nothing 30 years down the road. To compare the construction and design of a $20,000 computer to todays $300 wonder is not really fair to either machine. On raw capacity and speed, today's machine will chew up the old machine; on quality of parts, design and construction, of course the $20,000 machine is going to win on that basis. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 12 21:18:24 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:18:24 -0800 Subject: Burroughs mainframes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:31 PM -0400 4/12/06, William Donzelli wrote: > > Speaking of Burroughs machines, are any of their big mainframes >> preserved anywhere? UDel had a B6700.... > >Very early in the history of this list a B6800 (I think) was offered to >anyone that wanted it. It was in Australia. > >Do the archives go back that far? I don't know, but archives do... See below. Zane Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:39:38 +0930 Reply-To: classiccmp at u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner at u.washington.edu From: adam at merlin.***.** (Adam Jenkins) To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Burroughs Computers Hi! I have a lead on a computer, a Burroughs 6800, that is apparantly being kept in a store-room and not being used. It seems I should be able to get it if I asked. My question is - do I want it? Mostly I have limited myself to micros, as they are small and fit my own interests, but I have always been willing to accept larger systems. But as a result I know nothing about Burroughs - is this thing huge, or what? Is it rare, common, powerful or just dull? Any information would be greatly appreciated, especially where it fits into the general history of computers. Thanks heaps, Adam. -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Apr 12 20:37:44 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:37:44 -0700 Subject: Mentor 2000/Pick - was: Buroughs L5000 available In-Reply-To: <20060413005938.UVEP8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060413005938.UVEP8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <443DAB68.80201@msm.umr.edu> Dave Dunfield wrote: >>Dave wrote.... >> >> if jay has media around, i imagine it is a qic-60 45mb or 60mb tape to copy to get a sysgen. Hopefully he has one. I can ask a buddy that used to work with adds as well. pick is now called "rainingdata.com" I'll try to post a link to a manual if i can find one. the remainder of what was pick is now called the Pick Data Provider for .NET, so it has been soaked up into the borg, never to be seen again. Jim From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Apr 12 20:50:52 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:50:52 -0700 Subject: Update At Computer History Museum Message-ID: I just noticed a lot of new photos and brochures posted at the computer history museum site. Look in both the text and still picture area. Some nice stuff, especially on the early (pre-1960) computers. Billy http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/ From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Apr 12 20:53:13 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:53:13 -0700 Subject: Mentor 2000/Pick - was: Buroughs L5000 available In-Reply-To: <443DAB68.80201@msm.umr.edu> References: <20060413005938.UVEP8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <443DAB68.80201@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <443DAF09.9080809@msm.umr.edu> jim stephens wrote: > Dave Dunfield wrote: > the first link below points to a manual that will be close to the Pick system basic language you can run on Mentor. The second one points to a manual that gives a flavor of the dictionary driven nature of pick. the last link is the wikipedia entry for pick, which has some information, and provided these links. Jim http://www.jes.com/pb/index.html http://www.d3ref.com/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pick_operating_system From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 12 21:36:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 19:36:58 -0700 Subject: Exxon series 500? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604121936580300.595ED8AC@10.0.0.252> On 4/12/2006 at 11:05 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk asked: >Weren't Zilog owned by Exxon Corporation at one point? Indeed it was--and Zilog's lucky to have survived Exxon's ham-handed management. Cheers, Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Apr 12 22:14:13 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 23:14:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Paper tape, again Message-ID: I still have quite a few new rolls of 1 inch teletype paper tape. It would be neat to trade for new 80 column cards, but no takers! Anyway, I suppose I could sell rolls direct. These are the standard teletype rolls, about 9 inches in diameter, and fit very nicely in a 33. Ask off list, please... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Thu Apr 13 00:16:37 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 07:16:37 +0200 Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443DDEB5.5020204@bluewin.ch> > I did not say that engineers could not think, or were incapable of > thinking, or anything like that. I said, basically, that engineers no > longer thought about problems, they threw computer power at them. Which is, alas, the only way to make a modern 50M gate chip. You'd spend a lifetime analyzing all the signals, load levels , clock delays etc. > > [And no, I am not happy about this, and I'll bet most good engineers > aren't eitehr. But apparently it's better to save $0.01 on each product > than to make a good quality device that you could sell for $10 more. That 50M gate chip sells, in quantity, for 3$, so yes the $0.01 becomes important. Charging $10 is a commercial impossibility. Economics is an integral and important part of engineering. > I do not accept the advertising lies > that a CAD system will turn anyone into a good engineer. It won't. That is, of course, true. Jos From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Thu Apr 13 03:15:19 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 02:15:19 -0600 Subject: RL drive lubrication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443E0897.6040800@rogerwilco.org> Tony Duell wrote: > I could tell you many stories of times when I've spent hours looking for > a fault only to find I've not plugged it into the mains, or there's no > fuse in the plug, or.... > > > Well, as it turns out, I *was* partially brainless with this episode (more below). > >From memory, there are 3 versions of the logic board used in the RL01. > The first oen is RL01-only, the other 2 can be used either in an RL01 or > an RL02 with a jumper change. The last of those has many more testpoints > than the earlier one. > > There are significant electronic differences between the first one and > the other 2. My RL01 printset only covers the first version, for the > others I look at the RL02 printset. > I have one of the older type, and the other three are of the new type. But, turns out that it doesn't matter anymore, in terms of which printset to use, since I think I have resolution to both drives' problems (more below). > The pocket service guide (is that on Bitsavers?) is probably the best > reference to tell the boards apart. I have that that booklet too, and can > tell you what to look for if you have problems. > > Yes, I do have a copy of the pocket service guide, thanks to bitsavers. Again, no longer required (more below), but very handy to have around. I have already benefited from it. >> I wonder....could the heads, having been in the retracted position for >> so long (years and years), be kind of 'glued' in place by dust/grime/dry >> grease, thus no READY indication? Hmm...a question: is it advisable to >> > > It's possible. > > Okay, here's the good stuff you've been waiting for. Just to recap: Drive 0 would not show READY. Trying to read from it anyway with RT11, gave a 'drive not responding' kind of message (don't have the exact text in front of me at the moment). And it put out a fair amount of whining/rumbling when spun up. Drive 1 would not show READY. (here's where I was brainless) I never actually tried to read this drive, since I never saw READY (I was already 'conditioned' by what I saw with Drive 0). This drive, too, put out a significant whine as it spun. Here's what I did: I opened each drive up, and did two things to each: 1) With the upper and lower head 'trays' propped apart, I manually exercised the r/w head carriage, moving it back and forth a number of times, and 2) I put a couple of drops of oil on the top of each motor's shaft, which was easily reached with the service cover off. Interestingly, Drive 0's head carriage *did indeed* have some fair resistance to motion when I first tried to move it. As I exercised it a few times it loosened up and moved pretty well after about a dozen full travel cycles. I actually believe this was a problem. If the heads couldn't budge, certainly the drive wouldn't come READY. I guess the lubrication on the rails or the pull cable cylinder (or whatever it is called) were somewhat gummed up. I didn't apply any additional lubrication, since it loosened up pretty well after a few cycles, and I didn't want to introduce into this area anything that wasn't according to spec (whatever that may be). Drive1's head carriage didn't show much resistance to motion when I manually exercised it. This was useful information to me since it gave me a sort of benchmark of comparison for what I experienced with Drive 0. So, the bottom line: Drive 0, having been reconnected to the 11/23, still didn't show READY, but I *was* able to talk to it. I even went so far as to image a whole disk cartridge to my PC without difficulty. Checking the READY indicator bulb, I discovered the bulb was burned out. Duh! (I told you I was partially brainless during this whole episode.) However, after replacing the bulb with a new one (I have a supply for just this purpose), I still don't get a READY light. More to look into, but the drive now actually works! Drive 1, also works just fine. (Uh, oh, more brainless-ness ahead...) It, too, had a burned out bulb! And since I never actually tried to read from this drive, after having no luck from Drive 0 (which had the same symptoms at the time), I just assumed it was broken too. It was probably only a bad bulb all along. A replacement bulb gave me a nice READY indication. How stupid is that!? The good news from going through this whole process is that I believe the small amount of lubrication that I applied to both drives' motors did the trick. Each drive is now quiet, at least as quiet as RL drives usually are. I *do* believe that the head carriage of Drive 0, was stuck, but it's hard to prove it. It, the whole drive, works now (sans READY light), and that's a whole lot better than a few days ago. I do think that a bit of lubrication to the drives' motors was definitely useful. I'll keep working on the Drive 0 READY indicator light. Probably some broken or loose contact in the switch itself, or the front panel switch assembly. I'll pull that and check everything. Thanks for all of your input, Tony! J. From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Apr 13 06:04:28 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 07:04:28 -0400 Subject: RL drive lubrication In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 13 Apr 2006 02:15:19 MDT." <443E0897.6040800@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <200604131104.k3DB4Scl009879@mwave.heeltoe.com> J Blaser wrote: > >I opened each drive up, and did two things to each: 1) With the upper >and lower head 'trays' propped apart, I manually exercised the r/w head >carriage, moving it back and forth a number of times, and 2) I put a >couple of drops of oil on the top of each motor's shaft, which was >easily reached with the service cover off. I'm curious if anyone has done something similar with an RK05. Certainly the bearings can be replaced, but can they also be cleaned and relubricated? is it safe to pull the entire voice coil assembly apart, clean the bearings and tracks, relubricate and reassemble? any suggestions? thx. -brad From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu Apr 13 06:19:43 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 13:19:43 +0200 Subject: RL drive lubrication Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0668168F@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> One thing is sure: you need the alignment pack to align the RK05. BTW Brad, I will check what boards of RL drives I have. I can't remember if they were from RL01 or RL02 drives, and if the boards are OK. Better have a dead board than none. A dead one can be repaired. No board is, well ... nothing. - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Parker > Sent: donderdag 13 april 2006 13:04 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RL drive lubrication > > > J Blaser wrote: > > > > I opened each drive up, and did two things to each: 1) With > > the upper and lower head 'trays' propped apart, I manually > > exercised the r/w head carriage, moving it back and forth a > > number of times, and 2) I put a couple of drops of oil on the > > top of each motor's shaft, which was easily reached with the > > service cover off. > > I'm curious if anyone has done something similar with an RK05. > > Certainly the bearings can be replaced, but can they also be > cleaned and relubricated? is it safe to pull the entire > voice coil assembly apart, clean the bearings and tracks, > relubricate and reassemble? > > any suggestions? thx. > > -brad > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Apr 13 06:55:45 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 07:55:45 -0400 Subject: RL drive lubrication In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 13 Apr 2006 13:19:43 +0200." <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0668168F@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <200604131155.k3DBtjRL011799@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Gooijen, Henk" wrote: >One thing is sure: you need the alignment pack to align the RK05. mmm. i have a reoccuring dream about finding a red pack :-) -brad From Tim at Rikers.org Thu Apr 13 11:04:31 2006 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 10:04:31 -0600 Subject: HP TSB cards? Message-ID: <443E768F.3060908@Rikers.org> Does anyone have cards that were used for HP TSB? I found an old printout of my text based 3D D&D program (circa 1980) that I'll be re-entering, but I've not found any of my old cards. The HP card reader (HP 2761A) would read both punched cards and penciled cards. We did not have a punch, so everything was done with a number 2 pencil. Our High School also used the HP-2114B system to grade tests taken on these cards. I seem to recall that they were printed in pink with black alignment marks, but I've used so many scantron cards since then, my memory may be cloudy. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 13 11:37:14 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 10:37:14 -0600 Subject: HP TSB cards? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 13 Apr 2006 10:04:31 -0600. <443E768F.3060908@Rikers.org> Message-ID: In article <443E768F.3060908 at Rikers.org>, Tim Riker writes: > Does anyone have cards that were used for HP TSB? [...] Speaking of cards, would it be possible to re-create cards that would stand up to the machines by laser printing on cardstock? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 13 11:48:04 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 11:48:04 -0500 Subject: HP TSB cards? References: <443E768F.3060908@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <000b01c65f1a$09794a10$6500a8c0@BILLING> Tim wrote... > Does anyone have cards that were used for HP TSB? I found an old > printout of my text based 3D D&D program (circa 1980) that I'll be > re-entering, but I've not found any of my old cards. > > The HP card reader (HP 2761A) would read both punched cards and penciled > cards. We did not have a punch, so everything was done with a number 2 > pencil. Our High School also used the HP-2114B system to grade tests > taken on these cards. Sure yo got the card reader number right? I have a 7261A that I adore :) Optical Mark Reader - it does two different column counts, but I don't think it did punch cards - I could be wrong. I also have one case of the cards that go with it. They are prescreened on the card for TSB program entry. However, I am loathe to give up many of the cards as I only have the one case. How many do you need? Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 13 11:48:45 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 11:48:45 -0500 Subject: HP TSB cards? References: Message-ID: <001001c65f1a$2131d460$6500a8c0@BILLING> it'd have to be a 100% straight paper path I think. But why... easier to have them printed up new from a printer. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 11:37 AM Subject: Re: HP TSB cards? > > In article <443E768F.3060908 at Rikers.org>, > Tim Riker writes: > >> Does anyone have cards that were used for HP TSB? [...] > > Speaking of cards, would it be possible to re-create cards that would > stand up to the machines by laser printing on cardstock? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Apr 13 11:49:49 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 11:49:49 -0500 Subject: RL drive lubrication In-Reply-To: <200604131155.k3DBtjRL011799@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200604131155.k3DBtjRL011799@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <2961A8DC-695E-4CD7-8101-6D445173B949@earthlink.net> Question: is there such a thing as an RL02 alignment pack? On Apr 13, 2006, at 6:55 AM, Brad Parker wrote: > > "Gooijen, Henk" wrote: >> One thing is sure: you need the alignment pack to align the RK05. > > mmm. i have a reoccuring dream about finding a red pack :-) > > -brad From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Apr 13 11:51:09 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 11:51:09 -0500 Subject: QIC drive bands Message-ID: <480d49018aaa479687e2d76689f513ef@valleyimplants.com> More in the interminable drive band discussion: Further investigation on a statistically insignificant sample shows a wide range of drive band lengths, and the band pulled from a newish tape annd used (successfully) in the old tapes was the longest. I am now wondering if the problem may have more to do with surface degradation and "glazing" lowering the friction between the drive belt and the tape. A possible test of this hypothesis would be to use "Rubber Renu" on an old tape band and see if the issue is resolved. Before I do that, I wanted to get some more input. I'm not sure of the composition of the drive bands, or whether "Rubber Renu" (main ingredient: Methyl Salicylate) would be injurous to the tapes in the small quantities that would remain on the band. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 13 11:58:21 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 10:58:21 -0600 Subject: HP TSB cards? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 13 Apr 2006 11:48:45 -0500. <001001c65f1a$2131d460$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <001001c65f1a$2131d460$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > it'd have to be a 100% straight paper path I think. You have to do a straight paper path for cardstock anyway. I've done it to print up small amounts of business cards and event flyers. Works pretty good and its cheap. > But why... easier to have them printed up new from a printer. Because that's not cheap unless you print up *lots* more than you're likely to need anytime soon. I've done 4-color printing before and with any kind of print shop setup your costs are going to be in the setup. The ink and paper is cheap, but the setup is labor and that's expensive. I haven't done any print shop jobs in about 10 years though, but I imagine the cost structure is still similar. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From brian at quarterbyte.com Thu Apr 13 12:03:34 2006 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 10:03:34 -0700 Subject: IBM 3380 and 3880 manuals Message-ID: <443E21F6.3781.5FAE220@brian.quarterbyte.com> Hi Folks, Do any of you have any manuals, particularly maintenance manuals, for the IBM 3380 DASD and 3880 controller in your collection, that I would be able to borrow (or read on PDF) at point in the future? Norm Aleks and I have a few of these that we would like to spin up one of these days, but no docs for them. (I don't have the specific sub-model numbers at hand right now, unfortunately). There are a few docs up on ebay now, in Chile, un-bid upon, but the shipping will be way pricey. So, I figured we'd best ask around before paying 30 bucks per lot to ship these up from Santiago. Thanks Brian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 13 12:44:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 10:44:50 -0700 Subject: QIC drive bands In-Reply-To: <480d49018aaa479687e2d76689f513ef@valleyimplants.com> References: <480d49018aaa479687e2d76689f513ef@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200604131044500906.5C9E0A54@10.0.0.252> On 4/13/2006 at 11:51 AM Scott Quinn wrote: >Before I do that, I wanted to get some more input. I'm not sure of the composition of the drive bands, or whether "Rubber Renu" (main ingredient: Methyl Salicylate) would be injurous to the tapes in the small quantities that would remain on the band. I wouldn't. Methyl salicylate (oil of wintergreen) is an oily ester that's mostly used as a flavoring agent. The elastomer used on the DC drive bands appears to be a completely different material from rubber--and I suspect it's not porous. Cleaning the stuff off a tape that you applied it to wouldn't be pretty--it's not soluble in water--it dissolves in ether. I'd start by firing off an inquiry to Imation. They still make QIC tapes and I'd suspect that they might sell you (with the appropriate amount of begging, wheedling and conniving) a bunch of new belts. I've found that their technical support can be very good. Back when I was fooling with QIC cartridges more, I recall one of their support reps informing me that when respooling a tape, saliva was exactly the right stuff to use to tack the free end of the tape to the hub. He said that they'd tried a number of other substances, but that saliva was the best. If you don't get satisfaction from customer service, see if you can get an in to the folks at NML (which is run by Imation). They deal with this sort of stuff all of the time. Cheers, Chuck From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Apr 13 13:15:07 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 11:15:07 -0700 Subject: QIC drive bands In-Reply-To: <200604131044500906.5C9E0A54@10.0.0.252> References: <480d49018aaa479687e2d76689f513ef@valleyimplants.com> <200604131044500906.5C9E0A54@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <443E952B.1010405@msm.umr.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 4/13/2006 at 11:51 AM Scott Quinn wrote: > > > >>Before I do that, I wanted to get some more input. I'm not sure of the >> >> >composition of the drive bands, or whether "Rubber Renu" (main ingredient: >Methyl Salicylate) would be injurous to the tapes in the small quantities >that would remain on the band. > > > > I dont know if chuck is a chemist, but he brings up a good point. I think that a lot of the lubricants in these tapes may be silicon based, which brings up a lot of interesting solvent questions. these sorts of questions are a problem, because there are some real problems with what we in the field tend to grab and use for cleaning. Witness the problem with using freon, or alcohol based cleaning solvents on the capstan rubber and destroying it as another example that has been well discussed here. Hopefully his suggestion will produce someone who can post a discussion of this topic, and recommendations about what is appropriate and how to determine what you are dealing with. Jim From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 13 13:32:05 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 19:32:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: RL drive lubrication In-Reply-To: <200604131104.k3DB4Scl009879@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Apr 13, 6 07:04:28 am Message-ID: > I'm curious if anyone has done something similar with an RK05. > > Certainly the bearings can be replaced, but can they also be cleaned and > relubricated? is it safe to pull the entire voice coil assembly apart, > clean the bearings and tracks, relubricate and reassemble? For the RK05, the maintenance manual gives a procedure for replacing the carriage bearings, and I think the IPB manual gives an exploded diagram and parts list for the voice coil positioner. Therefore it was regarded as possible to dismantle it in the field and replace parts. I am pretty sure the bearings are standard parts. It may be better to replace them, I wound't want to risk luvricant getting onto the disk or heads. But actually you should be alright taking the covers off the bearings and lubrigating them (I would guess a light grease is the stuff to use here). If you dismantle the positioner, be warned that about the first thing you have to do is remove the heafs. Which means you'll need an alignment pack to get it back together again. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 13 13:35:56 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 19:35:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: RL drive lubrication In-Reply-To: <2961A8DC-695E-4CD7-8101-6D445173B949@earthlink.net> from "Julian Wolfe" at Apr 13, 6 11:49:49 am Message-ID: > > Question: is there such a thing as an RL02 alignment pack? Sort of... There is no radial alignment pack for the RL02 -- you don't need one. Being an embeded servo drive, you can align the heads (basically all you need to do is get the 2 heads on the same track) using any normal pack. The procedure is certainly in he pocket service guide. There is a amplitude test pack, I beleive (I don't have it), used for setting up the read amplifier. That could be called an 'alignment pack' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 13 13:13:36 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 19:13:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: RL drive lubrication In-Reply-To: <200604130037.k3D0b4hC017695@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Apr 12, 6 08:37:04 pm Message-ID: > >>From memory, there are 3 versions of the logic board used in the RL01. > >The first oen is RL01-only, the other 2 can be used either in an RL01 or > >an RL02 with a jumper change. The last of those has many more testpoints > >than the earlier one. > > yup. I was just looking at this today. > > 54-12175 RL01 > 54-13531 v2 (RL01 or RL02) > 54-14025 v3 > > I don't know about the v3 board. It may do them both also. I am pretty sure is does (there's a link you have to cut, I think for the RL01). AFAIK DEC never made an RL02-only drive logic board. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 13 13:28:26 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 19:28:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: RL drive lubrication In-Reply-To: <443E0897.6040800@rogerwilco.org> from "J Blaser" at Apr 13, 6 02:15:19 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > I could tell you many stories of times when I've spent hours looking for > > a fault only to find I've not plugged it into the mains, or there's no > > fuse in the plug, or.... > > > > > > > Well, as it turns out, I *was* partially brainless with this episode I know that feeling _very_ well :-) > > The pocket service guide (is that on Bitsavers?) is probably the best > > reference to tell the boards apart. I have that that booklet too, and can > > tell you what to look for if you have problems. > > > > > Yes, I do have a copy of the pocket service guide, thanks to bitsavers. It's a suprisingly uesful manual. Yes, you need the printset as well, but the pocket guide does have some stuff in it that's not obvious from looking at the drive. > Interestingly, Drive 0's head carriage *did indeed* have some fair > resistance to motion when I first tried to move it. As I exercised it a > few times it loosened up and moved pretty well after about a dozen full > travel cycles. I actually believe this was a problem. If the heads FWIW, I've never tried to dismantle and reassemble an RL positioner, so I don't know how hard it would be, and even if it's possible (all the DEC manuals seem to suggest replacing it as a unit, alas). Maybe I should sometime (I've got a MINC with a pair of RL01s that's not doing anything much, I wouldn't worry too much if I couldn't reassemble it). > couldn't budge, certainly the drive wouldn't come READY. I guess the > lubrication on the rails or the pull cable cylinder (or whatever it is IIRC, there's a permanent magnet DC motor that turns that cable drum. Maybe its bearings were gummed up or something. > Drive 0, having been reconnected to the 11/23, still didn't show READY, > but I *was* able to talk to it. I even went so far as to image a whole > disk cartridge to my PC without difficulty. Checking the READY > indicator bulb, I discovered the bulb was burned out. Duh! (I told you Argh! > I was partially brainless during this whole episode.) However, after > replacing the bulb with a new one (I have a supply for just this > purpose), I still don't get a READY light. More to look into, but the > drive now actually works! Well, there can't be much wrong with it, then. I am pretty sure the fact that it works means that the internal ready signal is going active. So it's either the lamp driver chip (on the logic board I think), the cable, lamp holder, soemthiog like that. -tony From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Mon Apr 10 11:16:33 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:16:33 +0200 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1144685793.26531.254.camel@fortran.babel> On Thu, 2006-02-02 at 21:19 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > ST506 is a low-level, raw, interface. What you see on the interface > connectoer is essentially the pulse stream to/from the head. It's up to > the cotnroller to turn that into the user data bytes/words. So, and I do know this is perverse :) - you could actually record, for example, audio onto an ST hard drive, and play it back? Of course, it'd just be a toy, but... One thing I've done previously on a dead IDE drive is to hook a Hi-fi amp to the voice coil actuator, and have listened to surprisingly audible audio with that. -toresbe :) From kth at srv.net Thu Apr 13 13:58:10 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 12:58:10 -0600 Subject: HP TSB cards? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443E9F42.3020204@srv.net> Richard wrote: >In article <443E768F.3060908 at Rikers.org>, > Tim Riker writes: > > > >>Does anyone have cards that were used for HP TSB? [...] >> >> > >Speaking of cards, would it be possible to re-create cards that would >stand up to the machines by laser printing on cardstock? > > Seeing how laser printed paper sticks to binders, and to other pages, I don't think it would work for long term storage. You would have to spend a lot of time seperating the cards, before being able to run them through a scanner. Ink-jet wouldn't be as much of a problem in this regards. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Apr 13 13:55:53 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 13:55:53 -0500 Subject: RL drive lubrication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Drive 0, having been reconnected to the 11/23, still didn't show READY, > > but I *was* able to talk to it. I even went so far as to image a whole > > disk cartridge to my PC without difficulty. Checking the READY > > indicator bulb, I discovered the bulb was burned out. Duh! (I told you > > Argh! It's funny, this happened to me also on my second drive. I actually had gotten into the habit of waiting for the drive to spin up so often I knew when it was spun up by the soft "clink" it makes when it goes ready. I didn't notice the bulb out for about a week :p From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 13 14:00:41 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:00:41 -0400 Subject: HP TSB cards? In-Reply-To: <443E9F42.3020204@srv.net> References: <443E9F42.3020204@srv.net> Message-ID: <443E9FD9.60907@gmail.com> Kevin Handy wrote: > Seeing how laser printed paper sticks to binders, and to other > pages, I don't think it would work for long term storage. > You would have to spend a lot of time seperating the cards, > before being able to run them through a scanner. > > Ink-jet wouldn't be as much of a problem in this regards. I've had problems with old inkjet-printed pages sticking to binders and each other. I don't know if ink formulations have changed recently, however. Peace... Sridhar From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Apr 13 14:05:38 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:05:38 -0400 Subject: Buroughs L5000 available Message-ID: <01C65F0C.7BCFCCA0@mse-d03> A fine machine; spent many happy hours programming these in my distant youth. Not much use without software however; alas, I threw out several boxes of manuals and PPT utilities & games years ago. I do still have a programming manual for it somewhere but, again, not much use without the assembler or at least the M/L monitor. I believe Bletchley has one of these; they might have some software for it. If you're talking about the built-in PPT reader beside the keyboard, that's only used for loading firmware and installing software; basic data I/O uses mag stripe ledger cards, and a small internal HD for RAM. They could have optional PPT I/O however; if you actually mean an external PPT reader (unlikely, since then it would presumably also have a perforator), that might be useful for someone to convert to a standard interface. I still have one or two in case anyone's interested, BTW. If you remove the innards and replace the top they do make sturdy desks or workbenches; at least two of my clients upgraded them that way. Some genealogy: Series F was the original ledger card posting machine; mechanical marvels of springs and levers, rotary accumulators & registers, full numeric keyboard, and a type bar printer, as seen in many banks & offices in the 50's. It was programmed via a removable rack of varying length metal pins; you picked your "op codes" out of a compartmented tray or box (or made your own with a sharp file) and "assembled" them into a program. Carriage movement literally "stepped" through the "program", and the location & length of the pins were the machine language (in the truest sense:) instructions. Parallel processing of a sort, since each program step had multiple instructions; i.e. you would read the keyboard, add & subtract the accumulator and up to 18 registers, and print, all in one operation. Series E added switches and solenoids and connected it to an external fridge-sized cabinet for calculations and core-based RAM; also added PPT and mag stripe card I/O. Except for carriage movement, the programming pins were replaced with "soft" code. L2000-L5000 consolidated it into a desk-sized unit with a PC style A/N keyboard, replaced the moving carriage printer with a dual tractor Selectric type ball, and core with a hard disk. L6000-L8000 replaced the mechanical keyboard & PPT loader with electronic ones, the hard disk with solid state RAM, and added optional cassette I/O & datacomm. L9000 replaced the Selectric ball with a dot matrix printer. B80 & B90 replaced the mag stripe cards with floppies and 5/10Mb fixed & removable HD cartridges and added a display. Since the ledger cards were gone, they then merged into the rest of the B series (B800 etc.) with separate terminals/keyboards and printers. mike -------------Original message: Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:13:13 -0500 From: "Dave Dunfield" Subject: Buroughs L5000 available >I was in Montreal today picking up some goodies*, and the guy showed me >a Buroughs L5000 accounting machine - too big for me, but he would love >it to find a good home. >It's BIG - the size of a good sized desk. The schematics that he had with >it show a date of 1966... Has a keyboard, what appears to be a printer of >some sort, and a paper tape reader. Thats all I know >Located in Laval, outside of Montreal, Quebec Canada. Would be a monster >to ship! From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Apr 13 14:34:16 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 12:34:16 -0700 Subject: OT: anybody recognises this protocol? In-Reply-To: <443BF595.9030406@brothom.nl> References: <443BF595.9030406@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <443EA7B8.3030607@DakotaCom.Net> Bert Thomas wrote: > Captured between video processor (olympus) and video printer: > > -> [2][0][3][FF][FC][1][83][18][3] > <- [2][0][2][FF][FD][81][8][3] > -> [2][0][3][FF][FC][1][89][20][3] > <- [2][0][2][FF][FD][81][8][3] > > (values in hex, just a sample) > > Does anybody recognise this protocol ? not off-hand... STX NUL 3 <16bit> ETX STX NUL 2 <16bit> ETX ... ??? Are all of the messages this same format ("3" parameters TO the device, "2" parameters FROM)? Presumably, when actual video is sent, the packets get larger -- but do they fit the same sort of (suggested) template? Does the device chatter constantly? Or, do these message exchanges arise ONLY when some event triggers them? > I'll fill in the context if needed, now left off to reduce noise. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu Apr 13 14:36:07 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 21:36:07 +0200 Subject: RL drive lubrication References: Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200BA@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Yes, it is not an alignment pack as Tony says, but amplitude pack. The cartridge is not red (as the RK05 alignment pack), but it is *blue*. See my website, there is a picture of both. - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Tony Duell Verzonden: do 13-04-2006 20:35 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: RL drive lubrication > > Question: is there such a thing as an RL02 alignment pack? Sort of... There is no radial alignment pack for the RL02 -- you don't need one. Being an embeded servo drive, you can align the heads (basically all you need to do is get the 2 heads on the same track) using any normal pack. The procedure is certainly in he pocket service guide. There is a amplitude test pack, I beleive (I don't have it), used for setting up the read amplifier. That could be called an 'alignment pack' -tony This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 13 14:48:35 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 14:48:35 -0500 Subject: HP TSB cards? References: Message-ID: <001301c65f33$40d305a0$6500a8c0@BILLING> You wrote... > You have to do a straight paper path for cardstock anyway. I've done > it to print up small amounts of business cards and event flyers. > Works pretty good and its cheap. True enough, I've done the same. However, on the business card stock, it still wasn't a really straight paper path in my printer. I guess what I'm trying to say is, computer cards would be thick enough that you must have an absolutely straight path, UNLIKE what you're saying with business cards. > Because that's not cheap unless you print up *lots* more than you're > likely to need anytime soon. I've done 4-color printing before and > with any kind of print shop setup your costs are going to be in the > setup. The ink and paper is cheap, but the setup is labor and that's > expensive. I haven't done any print shop jobs in about 10 years > though, but I imagine the cost structure is still similar. Uh.. I disagree, or have you used cards lately. You have to print up LOTS to just put a few programs on ;) Cards are one color printing. But you're right, the setup is the killer. I know a guy that does good printing cheap, I should take him one of my tsb cards and see what he says. I've been meaning to do that anyways. Jay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 13 15:07:28 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 21:07:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: <1144685793.26531.254.camel@fortran.babel> from "Tore S Bekkedal" at Apr 10, 6 06:16:33 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 2006-02-02 at 21:19 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > ST506 is a low-level, raw, interface. What you see on the interface > > connectoer is essentially the pulse stream to/from the head. It's up to > > the cotnroller to turn that into the user data bytes/words. > So, and I do know this is perverse :) - you could actually record, for > example, audio onto an ST hard drive, and play it back? Of course, it'd > just be a toy, but... Not easily. You don't, of course, get the raw head connections at the interface connecotr, there's a write (recoding) driver and a read (playback) amplifier in the drive. These circuits are strictly digital (the interface signals are actually at RS422 levels IIRC). And there are resrictions on the frequency of the pulses you can record (both minimum and maximum from what I rememebr). And of course, sioce the drive rotates at something like 3000rpm, you'd only get a recording time of 1/50 of a second per track. I do have a video hard disk in my collection. This is a head-per-track hard disk rotating at 3000 rpm, such that 1 frame of TV video can be recorded on each track. It uses FM (analogue) modulation to do this. There are 3 indentical read/write circuits to handle RGB colour. I am told that this sort of disk was oringinally designed for TV action replays. The one I have has a DAC on the input to the FM modulator, with a Unibus interface (via a DR11-B) on the front of that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 13 15:11:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 21:11:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: RL drive lubrication In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200BA@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Apr 13, 6 09:36:07 pm Message-ID: > > Yes, it is not an alignment pack as Tony says, but amplitude > pack. The cartridge is not red (as the RK05 alignment pack), > but it is *blue*. See my website, there is a picture of both. FWIW, I have a pair of RK05 alignment packs (I know they are such, I've used them to align heads), and neither of them are red. AFAIR, they are just the normal white housings. -tony From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 13 15:27:21 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:27:21 -0500 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: References: <1144685793.26531.254.camel@fortran.babel> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060413151835.04e1e038@mail> At 03:07 PM 4/13/2006, Tony Duell wrote: >I do have a video hard disk in my collection. This is a head-per-track >hard disk rotating at 3000 rpm, such that 1 frame of TV video can be >recorded on each track. It uses FM (analogue) modulation to do this. I saw a demo of this on an ordinary hard drive's mechanicals in the late 80s. A friend recorded and played-back perhaps ten or fifteen seconds of video on a (I think) 40 meg drive. It was purely analog, not digital. (Amigas were early users of IDE drives, so it might've been IDE, although that doesn't really matter in this case, does it?) It was very futuristic at the time, considering that comparable pro systems cost more than a house. He soon developed the Amiga's Video Toaster and even later, the Flyer, a hard-disk-based recording and editing system. - John From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Apr 13 15:32:07 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 16:32:07 -0400 Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604131632.07943.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 12 April 2006 06:01 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > [And no, I am not happy about this, and I'll bet most good engineers > aren't eitehr. But apparently it's better to save $0.01 on each product > than to make a good quality device that you could sell for $10 more. Of course it is, given how most markets these days seem to be price-driven rather than quality-driven. And then, the cheaply-made stuff will break sooner, so you'll sell more of them for that reason, too... I'm not happy about any of this either. :-( -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu Apr 13 15:39:20 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 22:39:20 +0200 Subject: RL drive lubrication References: Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200BB@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Yes, they are the normal white housings, but they have a big red sticker (label) that says "alignment cartridge", on the top and on the side, where you grip the cartridge. - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Tony Duell Verzonden: do 13-04-2006 22:11 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: RL drive lubrication > > Yes, it is not an alignment pack as Tony says, but amplitude > pack. The cartridge is not red (as the RK05 alignment pack), > but it is *blue*. See my website, there is a picture of both. FWIW, I have a pair of RK05 alignment packs (I know they are such, I've used them to align heads), and neither of them are red. AFAIR, they are just the normal white housings. -tony This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From Tim at Rikers.org Thu Apr 13 16:16:40 2006 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:16:40 -0600 Subject: HP TSB cards? In-Reply-To: <000b01c65f1a$09794a10$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <443E768F.3060908@Rikers.org> <000b01c65f1a$09794a10$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <443EBFB8.4020609@Rikers.org> Jay West wrote: > Sure yo got the card reader number right? I have a 7261A that I adore :) > Optical Mark Reader - it does two different column counts, but I don't > think it did punch cards - I could be wrong. Yes. Mine is a 2761A: http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=550 http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050413_122518 http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050415_134519 Look like it takes a smaller stack than the 7261A. >From the specs I quote: "Cards may be coded by marking preprinted boxes with an ordinary soft-lead pencil, keypunching or any combination of marking and punching." :) > I also have one case of the > cards that go with it. They are prescreened on the card for TSB program > entry. However, I am loathe to give up many of the cards as I only have > the one case. How many do you need? Just 5 or so to have around. Though if you are planning to order more, I might be in for that. I do need to fix the disolved rubber wheel (02760-4003?) on my card reader before it'll run again. :) -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 13 16:23:19 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:23:19 -0600 Subject: Buroughs L5000 available In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:05:38 -0400. <01C65F0C.7BCFCCA0@mse-d03> Message-ID: In article <01C65F0C.7BCFCCA0 at mse-d03>, M H Stein writes: > Carriage movement literally "stepped" through the "program", and the > location & length of the pins were the machine language (in the truest > sense:) instruc tions. Parallel processing of a sort, since each program > step had multiple instructi ons; i.e. you would read the keyboard, > add & subtract the accumulator and up to 18 registers, and print, > all in one operation. The first VLIW (very long instruction word) architecture? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 13 16:34:42 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:34:42 -0600 Subject: RL drive lubrication In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 13 Apr 2006 21:36:07 +0200. <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200BA@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: In article <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200BA at OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net>, "Gooijen, Henk" writes: > Yes, it is not an alignment pack as Tony says, but amplitude > pack. The cartridge is not red (as the RK05 alignment pack), > but it is *blue*. See my website, there is a picture of both. No offense Henk, but I wouldn't know where to look since your site is organized by machine, not by peripheral. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Apr 13 16:59:37 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 17:59:37 -0400 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 13 Apr 2006 21:07:28 BST." Message-ID: <200604132159.k3DLxb0A011704@mwave.heeltoe.com> Tony Duell wrote: > >I do have a video hard disk in my collection. This is a head-per-track >hard disk rotating at 3000 rpm, such that 1 frame of TV video can be >recorded on each track. It uses FM (analogue) modulation to do this. >There are 3 indentical read/write circuits to handle RGB colour. Back in the old days they were also used for computer animation. You could record one frame at a time. At that time an 11/780 was the single user workstation of choice and a single frame could take a while, depending on what algorithms you were using. At least it had floating point. Once you (finally) got all the frames recorded you could see the result in real time. Very nice for pencil tests. But rather expensive. I am still floored everytime I watch someone playing WOW. So many polygons, and shaded too. -brad From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Apr 13 18:19:31 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 16:19:31 -0700 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060413151835.04e1e038@mail> References: <1144685793.26531.254.camel@fortran.babel> <6.2.3.4.2.20060413151835.04e1e038@mail> Message-ID: <443EDC83.2070600@msm.umr.edu> John Foust wrote: >At 03:07 PM 4/13/2006, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > A friend recorded and played-back perhaps >ten or fifteen seconds of video on a (I think) 40 meg drive. >It was purely analog, not digital. (Amigas were early users >of IDE drives, so it might've been IDE, although that doesn't >really matter in this case, does it?) > I'm not aware of an analog way to access IDE, the interface is similar to SCSI. The SMD interface, Trident, or older 5440 drives had interfaces that minicomputers had to supply data separators and encoders for, and were able to record in an "analog" mode. The object of the IDE and SCSI, and the earlier unsuccessful ANSI and maybe SA1000 and SA4000 were to move the data separator and so forth into the drive. The main thing that was analog on any of these is that one could design an interface which recorded with different clock and data schemes, and could implement something like PCM or other phase modulation. The response was not really analog by any means, but was heavily tilted for digital, that is to get clear "true" and "false" type data to and from the disk. If you had an interface to a media that allowed for analog level responses, then you ran into problems with the signal moving up and down with less than desirable response, and therefore might get errors. Hope this makes sense. I was involved in interfacing to a Western Dynex, and to some Trident and CDC drives, where other than mini computers were using the media. One of the earliest stop motion recorders used in broadcast used a single drive and a 5440 type head and positioner to record a few seconds of video, and could be stopped and replayed easily. It used a different sort of interface to get the video to the media than a normal disk drive did, but the ones I saw actually used the same heads and media and positioners that our drives did (10mb capacity on 4 heads, or 2.5mb / head). Jim From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 13 18:35:42 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 18:35:42 -0500 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: <443EDC83.2070600@msm.umr.edu> References: <1144685793.26531.254.camel@fortran.babel> <6.2.3.4.2.20060413151835.04e1e038@mail> <443EDC83.2070600@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060413183452.04e71418@mail> At 06:19 PM 4/13/2006, jim stephens wrote: >I'm not aware of an analog way to access IDE, the interface is similar to SCSI. The >SMD interface, Trident, or older 5440 drives had interfaces that minicomputers had >to supply data separators and encoders for, and were able to record in an "analog" >mode. This fellow had ripped apart the drive quite severely. It wasn't a question of squeezing analog in through the standard interface. - John From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Apr 13 18:50:06 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 16:50:06 -0700 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060413183452.04e71418@mail> References: <1144685793.26531.254.camel@fortran.babel> <6.2.3.4.2.20060413151835.04e1e038@mail> <443EDC83.2070600@msm.umr.edu> <6.2.3.4.2.20060413183452.04e71418@mail> Message-ID: <443EE3AE.4090409@msm.umr.edu> John Foust wrote: >At 06:19 PM 4/13/2006, jim stephens wrote: > > >> >> > >This fellow had ripped apart the drive quite severely. It wasn't a >question of squeezing analog in through the standard interface. > >- John > > > > I'd love to hear that story for sure then. pretty interesting to do that w/o really makeing the logic in the drive really unhappy. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 13 20:28:39 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 19:28:39 -0600 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! Message-ID: OK, in some threads I've seen the curmudgeons shake their head back and forth and bemoan how people don't write finely tuned hand assembly code anymore. Well, not so! Apparently all of you except Trixter :) are unfamiliar with the restricted size demo. Browse around these places and then you can't tell me there's noone left who understands how to squeeze cycles out with careful thought! interesting programs in 256 BYTES or less! interesting programs hosted in a web page of 256 BYTES or less! interesting programs in 64K bytes! While the first two don't have sound, the 64K size routinely has original music, 3D graphics that'll blow your nuts off :-) and lots of cool eye candy. All of these are free for distribution and download! There are some interesting things happening in the past few years in the "4K" category as well. Some people have managed to squeeze in an original music score, decent 3D scenes and a running time of several minutes without getting boring. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From geneb at simpits.com Thu Apr 13 20:35:10 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 18:35:10 -0700 Subject: Mentor 2000/Pick - was: Buroughs L5000 available In-Reply-To: <443DAB68.80201@msm.umr.edu> References: <20060413005938.UVEP8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <443DAB68.80201@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <443EFC4E.3080909@simpits.com> jim stephens wrote: > Dave Dunfield wrote: > >>> Dave wrote.... >>> > if jay has media around, i imagine it is a qic-60 45mb or 60mb tape to > copy to > get a sysgen. Hopefully he has one. I can ask a buddy that used to work > with adds as well. > > pick is now called "rainingdata.com" I'll try to post a link to a manual > if i > can find one. > > the remainder of what was pick is now called the Pick Data Provider > for .NET, so it has been soaked up into the borg, never to be seen again. > Actually D3 is still a good native Pick product. Granted, RD is trying to screw people to death for license fees... You should check out OpenQM. It's an open source version of a commercial MV product called QM. You can download it at http://www.openqm.com. It's a really nice product and very compatible with many flavors of Pick. g. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Apr 13 20:43:44 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 18:43:44 -0700 Subject: Neat score today... Message-ID: <200604131843440985.3A58F081@192.168.42.129> While poking around for some batteries and a coax adapter at one of the local electronics supply places, I came across (much to my utter surprise) a fairly clean Fluke 9010A micro-system troubleshooter plus two pods: One for the original Motorola 68000, the other for the 6809/6809E. I asked about it, and was told that it was open for offers. Taking a long shot, I said "would $50 be OK?" Less than a minute later, the answer was "You got it!" I've seen the pods alone go for over three times that on Greed-bay. However, I have no intention of putting this unit up for grabs. They're way too useful for working on older embedded-CPU gear. What really amazes me is that finding something like this was the farthest thing from my mind. I was going to go to the local Radio Shack instead of all the way across town, but a tiny mental nudge said "No, go to Tukwila instead." Once again, I've found that listening to one's "inner voice" can be greatly rewarding to one's test gear collection (if a bit hazardous to one's checkbook). ;-) Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 13 21:02:29 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 20:02:29 -0600 Subject: document scanning tips for XP users Message-ID: I'm scanning docs I have that don't seem to be online. In the process I found a pretty efficient way to keep my flatbed scanner busy as much as possible while scanning. I've written up my scanning process here, along with links to docs I've scanned. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 13 21:14:35 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 21:14:35 -0500 Subject: Mentor 2000/Pick - was: Buroughs L5000 available References: <20060413005938.UVEP8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <004c01c65f69$2eefcc70$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Dave wrote.... > Thanks for the info Jay, it seems fairly impressive - It's got 16 DB-9 > connectors (serial?) on the back - Is this a serious multi-user machine? Pick is designed from the Virtual Assembler on up to be a multi-user RDBMS. It is a serious multiuser machine. Probably on all DB9's, but particularly I noticed on most Pick machines.... every vendor had a different pinout for the DB9 port. GA Zebra's did tx/rx/sgnd on 3/4/5! > I have some documentation, but not all that much (and no media), can > you suggest any resources - Probably won't get to it for a while (still > working on the Unisys), but eventually I'll be hungry for details! When you get ready let me know, I have quite a few manuals. There is also books on Pick at B.Dalton/Waldenbooks, at least their used to be! The best part if pick is dynamic arrays. A little odd at first, but once the light bulb goes off, you'll wonder why everyone didn't do it that way! >> This is most likely a Pick machine. it probably took a tape to boot >> it. It may be a Z 8000 type >> machine, if it is Pick. They were one of the first ones to try to use >> the Z8000 in a system. Most pick systems would boot up right from the hard drives, the tape was only needed to install a fresh system. I don't recall if the Adds Mentor 2000 was a firmware implementation or a software implementation. I found the software implementations to be much more fascinating/fun. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 13 21:15:49 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 21:15:49 -0500 Subject: Mentor 2000/Pick - was: Buroughs L5000 available References: <20060413005938.UVEP8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <443DAB68.80201@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <005001c65f69$58f9f9a0$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Someone wrote.... > if jay has media around, i imagine it is a qic-60 45mb or 60mb tape to > copy to > get a sysgen. Hopefully he has one. I can ask a buddy that used to work > with adds as well. I have no ADDS stuff :\ Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 13 21:17:03 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 21:17:03 -0500 Subject: Mentor 2000/Pick - was: Buroughs L5000 available References: <20060413005938.UVEP8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com><443DAB68.80201@msm.umr.edu> <443DAF09.9080809@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <005401c65f69$85478720$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote... > http://www.jes.com/pb/index.html I haven't looked, but that's gotta be Jonathan E. Sisk ? Talk about a blast from the past :) Jay From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Apr 13 21:40:34 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 21:40:34 -0500 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443F0BA2.9030706@oldskool.org> Richard wrote: > Well, not so! Apparently all of you except Trixter :) are unfamiliar (ears ringing) > > interesting programs in 256 BYTES or less! > > interesting programs hosted in a web page of 256 BYTES or less! Some of these are truly impressive, not only for their knowledge of x86 assembler, but also their knowledge of the environment they're running in. To squeeze space, many of these take advantage of things like OS kernel structures for "free" data, or known states of registers on program load/start, etc. One of the most impressive 256b programs I've seen is a full-screen textured tunnel the viewer is flying in. A quick look at the source code shows that it is over 70% floating-point instructions. Some consider that "cheating", others consider it genius. Up to you. There is a tradeoff, as always: Size vs. speed. Some of these 256b programs are very slow, even on modern hardware, simply because sometimes the smallest way to do something is the most inefficient way. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ygehrich at yahoo.com Thu Apr 13 21:41:30 2006 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 22:41:30 -0400 Subject: TI-99/4A In-Reply-To: <20060414022606.74282.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060414022606.74282.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060413223732.04c74348@yahoo.com> I have four of them and they all look good. Just the consoles. No way to test them. In Spring Hill Florida. Would anybody like to make me an offer for them? Plus shipping of course Paypal, cash, check or money order From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Thu Apr 13 22:11:26 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 05:11:26 +0200 Subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access? In-Reply-To: <443C0AAB.203@yahoo.co.uk> References: <002701c65d93$05186ba0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <443C0AAB.203@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1144984286.9107.21.camel@fortran.babel> On Tue, 2006-04-11 at 20:59 +0100, Jules Richardson wrote: > Or you can hook the drive up to a Linux box, locate and edit the necessary > disk block by hand; been there, done that before... Quick word of warning: XFS will not mount on Linux if it was unmounted uncleanly, and the error message will not say anything to indicate this. Linux has XFS file checking utilities, though. However, I recommend you make a bitwise image of the disk before you start running that - it *is* Linux and you never know. :) -toresbe :) From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Apr 13 22:23:12 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 20:23:12 -0700 Subject: Mentor 2000/Pick - was: Buroughs L5000 available In-Reply-To: <004c01c65f69$2eefcc70$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <20060413005938.UVEP8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <004c01c65f69$2eefcc70$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <443F15A0.4010403@msm.umr.edu> Jay West wrote: > Dave wrote.... > >> Thanks for the inf > > Most pick systems would boot up right from the hard drives, the tape > was only needed to install a fresh system. > I assumed his mentor would be wiped, or he'd want to find a sysgen for it or it would not be very interesting. > I don't recall if the Adds Mentor 2000 was a firmware implementation > or a software implementation. I found the software implementations to > be much more fascinating/fun. > > Jay > The only firmware machines would be Microdata, Evolution / intertechnique, Irvine Computer Corp, Ultimate. Pick's move to Open Architecture pretty much doomed the firmware approach, due to the changes needed to adapt to the new requirements of virtual, and the time it took to do implementations of firmware machines. Ultimate did co processors for honeywell level 6, Dec, and vax (different for the VMS). their tandem machine was bought from the australians (along with a friend, Dave Rose) and their mainframe implementation was bought from SMI, chicago, along with my friend Dale Tyler. both ended up in mainline pick develpment after that. Ultimmate also did a ground up port with a different software approach to the running of pick on top of unix. rather than have the virtual "frames" of code and executing the assembly, you ran a big build that retained the data needed in each objectframe, more or less but translated the whole lot of the pick assembly code to C, them made one massive 32mb HP or RS6000 executable with all executble code. It was more stable to translate that way, as the executable was just a huge application to the unix system, and required no real access to execute code. It took a couple of releasees to get it running fast enough, but it is still being used by at least a couple of customers today, on HP. Interesting way to translate an assembly architecture to be hosted on a Unix box, as all pick systems ended up. Universe and Unidata were ground up implementations, and were all C, I believe. Revelation was assembly or c, i think, and is still around as well. Revelation 6 is the dos lover's dream pick system. two 1.4mb floppies, and you are runnning pick on dos 6.2 . of course it is now advanced revelation, but I still lliked the original Roger Harpel version. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 13 23:09:42 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 21:09:42 -0700 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604132109420085.5EDA1C3F@10.0.0.252> On 4/13/2006 at 7:28 PM Richard wrote: >Browse around these places and then you can't tell me there's noone left >who understands how to squeeze cycles out with careful thought! Ah, but small size does not equate to fast code--or even the fastest code for a simple task. Take the lowly job of moving some bytes on a Pentium-class processor. Anyone can write "rep movsb', but while very small, it's not usually the fastest. What's the fastest byte string move on a Z80? (Assume a non-overlapping move). Clearly, in many applications "rep movsb" will be perfectly adequate and won't affect the performance of a program one bit. So not every lily should be gilded. I'm more impressed with a cleverly fast FFT that betrays the coder's level of understanding of the problem than an implementation that slavishly implements the basic algorithm in the smallest number of bytes. Cheers, Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Apr 14 00:29:09 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 01:29:09 -0400 Subject: Buroughs L5000 available Message-ID: <01C65F62.D636FF00@mse-d03> From: Richard Subject: Re: Buroughs L5000 available In article <01C65F0C.7BCFCCA0 at mse-d03>, M H Stein writes: >> Carriage movement literally "stepped" through the "program", and the >> location & length of the pins were the machine language (in the truest >> sense:) instruc tions. Parallel processing of a sort, since each program >> step had multiple instructi ons; i.e. you would read the keyboard, >> add & subtract the accumulator and up to 18 registers, and print, >> all in one operation. >The first VLIW (very long instruction word) architecture? :-) Exactly! A 10 bit decimal data bus and a 20-or-so nybble-wide instruction bus; as a matter of fact, one used a nibbling tool to cut the pins... :) mike From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 12 12:05:55 2006 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (a.carlini at ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:05:55 +0100 Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <200604111758250601.53DE4B13@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <003801c65e53$5e24bbc0$c901a8c0@tempname> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Wonder why everyone mentions "bubble sort" when they mean a > relatively inefficient sort? I'm sure Knuth mentions "random-sort" as being worse (randomly shuffle elements, check if order correct, if not then repeat). Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 12 12:25:29 2006 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (a.carlini at ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:25:29 +0100 Subject: RT-11 System Release Notes (Mar 1979) available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003901c65e56$1be070d0$c901a8c0@tempname> Richard wrote: > > > I notice not many RT-11 docs are online, so I'm scanning in the > manuals that I have... feel free to copy to bitsavers, Al. -- I've scanned a set of RT-11 V5.5 (or thereabouts) manuals which should be up on Manx sometime, which might save you some work (or at least help you decide in which order to scan them) Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From JERRY_PEANUT at HORIZONVIEW.NET Wed Apr 12 20:47:22 2006 From: JERRY_PEANUT at HORIZONVIEW.NET (Jerry Detillian) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 21:47:22 -0400 Subject: Last chance: Free Printwheels Message-ID: <000501c65e9c$355b1ab0$423cffd8@PEANUT> Guess I am about 8 years late on the printwheels. Could have used them. Looking for them on ebay right now. Thanks, Jerry From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Apr 14 01:37:54 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 07:37:54 +0100 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: <1144685793.26531.254.camel@fortran.babel> References: <1144685793.26531.254.camel@fortran.babel> Message-ID: <443F4342.80307@gjcp.net> Tore S Bekkedal wrote: > On Thu, 2006-02-02 at 21:19 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >> ST506 is a low-level, raw, interface. What you see on the interface >> connectoer is essentially the pulse stream to/from the head. It's up to >> the cotnroller to turn that into the user data bytes/words. > So, and I do know this is perverse :) - you could actually record, for > example, audio onto an ST hard drive, and play it back? Of course, it'd > just be a toy, but... Probably. Since for digital audio your data rate will be a lot lower than normal IDE transfer speeds, you've got loads of time to get the data on and off the disk. How much quicker is an IDE hard disk than a single-speed CD-ROM? Now, here you're talking about ST drives, which produce a string of pulses. If you could read and write pulses at around 40kHz, and pulse-width modulated them with the level of your signal (think 40kHz sawtooth waves and comparators here) then you could do it. Add a bit of logic to step the head on every rotation. Gordon. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Apr 14 05:09:44 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 12:09:44 +0200 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: <1144685793.26531.254.camel@fortran.babel> References: <1144685793.26531.254.camel@fortran.babel> Message-ID: <20060414120944.07678a16@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 18:16:33 +0200 Tore S Bekkedal wrote: > One thing I've done previously on a dead IDE drive is to hook a Hi-fi > amp to the voice coil actuator, and have listened to surprisingly > audible audio with that. I have done this too. In addition I mounted a mirror on the head and pointed a laser to the mirror. Those voice coils are really good as laser deflector. Gave me nice laser patterns on the wall. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 14 06:28:45 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 05:28:45 -0600 Subject: RT-11 System Release Notes (Mar 1979) available In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:25:29 +0100. <003901c65e56$1be070d0$c901a8c0@tempname> Message-ID: In article <003901c65e56$1be070d0$c901a8c0 at tempname>, writes: > I've scanned a set of RT-11 V5.5 (or thereabouts) manuals > which should be up on Manx sometime, which might save you > some work (or at least help you decide in which order to scan > them) Ah, but my manuals are V3B :-). So they would be different from yours. By how much I don't know. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Apr 14 06:36:00 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 07:36:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <003801c65e53$5e24bbc0$c901a8c0@tempname> Message-ID: <20060414113600.900E858184@mail.wordstock.com> > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Wonder why everyone mentions "bubble sort" when they mean a > > relatively inefficient sort? > > I'm sure Knuth mentions "random-sort" as being worse (randomly > shuffle elements, check if order correct, if not then repeat). > Sounds like the same idea as the "million monkeys banging away at typewriters"... Cheers, Bryan From cctalk at catcorner.org Fri Apr 14 07:55:49 2006 From: cctalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 08:55:49 -0400 Subject: Tandy Model 16b computers availabe Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036075@MEOW.catcorner.org> Still have one or two left. Pickup only in Norther NJ. Any takers? Kelly From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Apr 14 09:41:56 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 10:41:56 -0400 Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <003801c65e53$5e24bbc0$c901a8c0@tempname> References: <003801c65e53$5e24bbc0$c901a8c0@tempname> Message-ID: <443FB4B4.1000708@gmail.com> a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Wonder why everyone mentions "bubble sort" when they mean a >> relatively inefficient sort? > > I'm sure Knuth mentions "random-sort" as being worse (randomly > shuffle elements, check if order correct, if not then repeat). I've heard that called "bogosort". The Jargon File has an interesting version called "quantum bogosort". Here's a quote: "A spectacular variant of bogo-sort has been proposed which has the interesting property that, if the Many Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is true, it can sort an arbitrarily large array in linear time. (In the Many-Worlds model, the result of any quantum action is to split the universe-before into a sheaf of universes-after, one for each possible way the state vector can collapse; in any one of the universes-after the result appears random.) The steps are: 1. Permute the array randomly using a quantum process, 2. If the array is not sorted, destroy the universe (checking that the list is sorted requires O(n) time). Implementation of step 2 is left as an exercise for the reader." 8-) Peace... Sridhar From Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com Fri Apr 14 10:47:20 2006 From: Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com (Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 11:47:20 EDT Subject: Tandy Model 16b computers availabe Message-ID: <312.2f25609.31711e08@wmconnect.com> Hi where in New Jersey (I live near Allentown Pa. (Reading Pa)) I have a Mod 16 no B I would like to see about getting it from you. Thanks, Al DePermentier E-mail: alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 14 13:35:47 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Edward) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 20:35:47 +0200 (CEST) Subject: OT : recommendations on freight company Message-ID: <22132.88.211.153.27.1145039747.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hi, Can someone recommend me a freighter who can pickup a cabinet and do all the necessary work including putting in on a pallet, wrapping it in plastic etc and ship it? Location is Westmont (IL) and is destined for The Netherlands. URL's are of course welcome! Please reply off-list. Thanks, Ed From kth at srv.net Fri Apr 14 14:57:17 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:57:17 -0600 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <443FFE9D.6090403@srv.net> Richard wrote: >OK, in some threads I've seen the curmudgeons shake their head back >and forth and bemoan how people don't write finely tuned hand assembly >code anymore. > >Well, not so! Apparently all of you except Trixter :) are unfamiliar >with the restricted size demo. > >Browse around these places and then you can't tell me there's noone left >who understands how to squeeze cycles out with careful thought! > > > interesting programs in 256 BYTES or less! > > > interesting programs hosted in a web page of 256 BYTES or less! > > > interesting programs in 64K bytes! While the first two don't have > sound, the 64K size routinely has original music, 3D graphics > that'll blow your nuts off :-) and lots of cool eye candy. > >All of these are free for distribution and download! > >There are some interesting things happening in the past few years in >the "4K" category as well. Some people have managed to squeeze in an >original music score, decent 3D scenes and a running time of several >minutes without getting boring. > > Ok, how about a 45 Byte Linux Elf executable http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html I don't know if it will run on current versions of Linux, but it did once... From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Apr 14 14:50:14 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:50:14 -0400 Subject: IBM 3420 questions In-Reply-To: <22132.88.211.153.27.1145039747.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <22132.88.211.153.27.1145039747.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <200604141550.14982.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 14 April 2006 14:35, Edward wrote: > Hi, > > Can someone recommend me a freighter who can pickup a cabinet > and do all the necessary work including putting in on a pallet, > wrapping it in plastic etc and ship it? > Location is Westmont (IL) and is destined for The Netherlands. So, now that I see others might be interested in this stuff. Does anyone know how big (dimensions, weight) an IBM 3420, and a 3083 are? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 14 14:54:02 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:54:02 -0600 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:57:17 -0600. <443FFE9D.6090403@srv.net> Message-ID: In article <443FFE9D.6090403 at srv.net>, Kevin Handy writes: > Ok, how about a 45 Byte Linux Elf executable > > http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html > > I don't know if it will run on current versions of Linux, but it did once... OK, but apparently all it does is return 42? I mean, the 256 byte demos do something visually interesting :). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Apr 14 14:57:47 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:57:47 -0400 Subject: IBM 3420 questions In-Reply-To: <200604141550.14982.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <22132.88.211.153.27.1145039747.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <200604141550.14982.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200604141557.47803.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 14 April 2006 15:50, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 14 April 2006 14:35, Edward wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Can someone recommend me a freighter who can pickup a cabinet > > and do all the necessary work including putting in on a pallet, > > wrapping it in plastic etc and ship it? > > Location is Westmont (IL) and is destined for The Netherlands. > > So, now that I see others might be interested in this stuff. > > Does anyone know how big (dimensions, weight) an IBM 3420, and a 3083 > are? Arg. That should be 3803. Tape controller, not System/370 cpu... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Apr 14 14:59:25 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:59:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060414195925.54D335822A@mail.wordstock.com> > > > In article <443FFE9D.6090403 at srv.net>, > Kevin Handy writes: > > > Ok, how about a 45 Byte Linux Elf executable > > > > http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html > > > > I don't know if it will run on current versions of Linux, but it did once... > > OK, but apparently all it does is return 42? I mean, the 256 byte > demos do something visually interesting :). But, but 42 is like the answer, man!!! Cheers, Bryan From kth at srv.net Fri Apr 14 15:19:52 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:19:52 -0600 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <444003E8.6060402@srv.net> Richard wrote: >In article <443FFE9D.6090403 at srv.net>, > Kevin Handy writes: > > > >>Ok, how about a 45 Byte Linux Elf executable >> >>http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html >> >>I don't know if it will run on current versions of Linux, but it did once... >> >> > >OK, but apparently all it does is return 42? I mean, the 256 byte >demos do something visually interesting :). > > Well, you're not going to like it, but it took a very large computer to come up with that number (read the book). I'd go into more details, but I've got to check out the diodes going down the left side of my robot... From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 14 15:08:39 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:08:39 -0600 Subject: IBM 3420 questions In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:50:14 -0400. <200604141550.14982.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200604141550.14982.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > Does anyone know how big (dimensions, weight) an IBM 3420, and a 3803 > are? See if you can find a catalog or other product documentation that might give specifications of size and weight. That's what I did to estimate the weight on some Tektronix gear I bought and it was worthwhile in having that to get an accurate estimate. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 14 15:15:23 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:15:23 -0600 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <444003E8.6060402@srv.net> References: <444003E8.6060402@srv.net> Message-ID: <444002DB.5010105@jetnet.ab.ca> Kevin Handy wrote: > Well, you're not going to like it, but it took a very large computer to > come > up with that number (read the book). I'd go into more details, but I've > got to > check out the diodes going down the left side of my robot... Or watch the movie "The hitch hikers guide to the galaxy". From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Apr 14 15:14:58 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 16:14:58 -0400 Subject: IBM 3420 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604141614.58594.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 14 April 2006 16:08, Richard wrote: > In article <200604141550.14982.pat at computer-refuge.org>, > > Patrick Finnegan writes: > > Does anyone know how big (dimensions, weight) an IBM 3420, and a > > 3803 are? > > See if you can find a catalog or other product documentation that > might give specifications of size and weight. That's what I did to > estimate the weight on some Tektronix gear I bought and it was > worthwhile in having that to get an accurate estimate. If I'd found that in the 1/2 hr or so I spent looking, I wouldn't have bothered asking the list... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From spc at conman.org Fri Apr 14 15:16:59 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 16:16:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Apr 14, 2006 01:54:02 PM Message-ID: <20060414201659.020A07302A@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard once stated: > > > In article <443FFE9D.6090403 at srv.net>, > Kevin Handy writes: > > > Ok, how about a 45 Byte Linux Elf executable > > > > http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html > > > > I don't know if it will run on current versions of Linux, but it did once... > > OK, but apparently all it does is return 42? I mean, the 256 byte > demos do something visually interesting :). I remember hand constructing the smallest executable I could under IRIX 4.0.1---I seem to recall it being about 160 bytes in length, for a "hello world" program (and by hand-constructing it, I literally mean constructing it byte-by-byte). I later learned the proper compiler incantations to generate a 300+ byte "hello world" program from C. -spc (Fun times ... ) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 14 15:26:02 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:26:02 -0600 Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <003801c65e53$5e24bbc0$c901a8c0@tempname> References: <003801c65e53$5e24bbc0$c901a8c0@tempname> Message-ID: <4440055A.5010006@jetnet.ab.ca> a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > I'm sure Knuth mentions "random-sort" as being worse (randomly > shuffle elements, check if order correct, if not then repeat). Sounds like it would have the smallest memory ( data and code) footprint around. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Apr 14 15:30:59 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:30:59 -0700 Subject: IBM 3420 questions In-Reply-To: <200604141557.47803.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <22132.88.211.153.27.1145039747.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <200604141550.14982.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200604141557.47803.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <44400683.3020700@msm.umr.edu> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >On Friday 14 April 2006 15:50, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > >Arg. That should be 3803. Tape controller, not System/370 cpu... > >Pat > > the 3803 has a huge block of iron and copper in the bottom, and the cabinet probably comes close to 900#. I would think the 3420's are in the 400# to 600# range. Norm Alecs has mine, maybe he could weigh them :-). Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 14 15:32:42 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: was: Programmer's conundrums In-Reply-To: <4440055A.5010006@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <003801c65e53$5e24bbc0$c901a8c0@tempname> <4440055A.5010006@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20060414133125.M92530@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 14 Apr 2006, woodelf wrote: > a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > > I'm sure Knuth mentions "random-sort" as being worse (randomly > > shuffle elements, check if order correct, if not then repeat). > Sounds like it would have the smallest memory ( data and code) > footprint around. a bit larger than a bubble sort. But, at least it would tend to be slower. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Apr 14 15:38:41 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:38:41 -0700 Subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access? In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0604111250l7b3b4186kc74c246a7746a261@mail.gmail.com> References: <002701c65d93$05186ba0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <11c909eb0604111250l7b3b4186kc74c246a7746a261@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44400851.7010907@msm.umr.edu> Pete Edwards wrote: >I broke into mine by booting sash and cat-ing the contents of /etc/passwd to >the console, then ran the encrypted password thru john the ripper. Luckily >the password turned out to be exactly that, so j-t-r took about 0.01 seconds >to dictionary attack it. >The principle, however, is sound :) > > > Pete, can you expand on what sash is? I know unix, sun, linux, well, but never have set in front of an SGI box, and don't recognize what "sash" is. I assume it is maybe an acronym for "stand alone shell" but would that come from a boot option one would expect to get to from a hard drive boot, or would one have to have access to a cdrom or other, and boot that, then request the boot up? Also why not edit directly the /etc/passwd? is there some check file system similar to sco's or system v's or /etc/shadow, like sun has that will go sideways if you remove a password string from /etc/passwd? Just wondering. Also, a friend cautioned that these could of type "EFS" and if that is so, be sure not to try to mount them on linux EFS, as the type names are the same, the system are definitely not. Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 14 15:57:43 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <444002DB.5010105@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <444003E8.6060402@srv.net> <444002DB.5010105@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20060414135512.J92530@shell.lmi.net> > > Well, you're not going to like it, but it took a very large computer to > > come > > up with that number (read the book). I'd go into more details, but I've > > got to > > check out the diodes going down the left side of my robot... On Fri, 14 Apr 2006, woodelf wrote: > Or watch the movie "The hitch hikers guide to the galaxy". The book is better. The BBC TV series was WAY better than the [Disney] movie. Casting could have been a LOT better. From blairrya at msu.edu Fri Apr 14 15:59:28 2006 From: blairrya at msu.edu (Ryan Blair) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 16:59:28 -0400 Subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access? In-Reply-To: <44400851.7010907@msm.umr.edu> References: <002701c65d93$05186ba0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <11c909eb0604111250l7b3b4186kc74c246a7746a261@mail.gmail.com> <44400851.7010907@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20060414165928.ee3216b0.blairrya@msu.edu> On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:38:41 -0700 jim stephens wrote: > Also, a friend cautioned that these could of type "EFS" and if that > is so, be sure not > to try to mount them on linux EFS, as the type names are the same, > the system are > definitely not. I've never had trouble reading any IRIX disks (or install media, for that matter) formatted with EFS under Linux, unless the filesystem was already corrupted. I use Linux's EFS support fairly frequently (some of the IRIX install media are EFS), since I use Linux as a netinstall server for IRIX. Works fine in 2.4.x and 2.6.x . -Ryan From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 14 16:04:23 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <20060414135512.J92530@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 14, 2006 01:57:43 PM Message-ID: <200604142104.k3EL4NdW005825@onyx.spiritone.com> > > Or watch the movie "The hitch hikers guide to the galaxy". > > The book is better. > The BBC TV series was WAY better than the [Disney] movie. > > Casting could have been a LOT better. Try the original BBC Radio version, personally I view that as the best version with the books being second, and the BBC TV version being third. I've not bothered to waste my time on the movie. Zane From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Apr 14 16:11:15 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:11:15 -0700 Subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access? In-Reply-To: <20060414165928.ee3216b0.blairrya@msu.edu> References: <002701c65d93$05186ba0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <11c909eb0604111250l7b3b4186kc74c246a7746a261@mail.gmail.com> <44400851.7010907@msm.umr.edu> <20060414165928.ee3216b0.blairrya@msu.edu> Message-ID: <44400FF3.8090609@msm.umr.edu> Ryan Blair wrote: >On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:38:41 -0700 >jim stephens wrote: > > > > >I've never had trouble reading any IRIX disks (or install media, for >that matter) formatted with EFS under Linux, unless the filesystem was >already corrupted. I use Linux's EFS support fairly frequently (some >of the IRIX install media are EFS), since I use Linux as a netinstall >server for IRIX. Works fine in 2.4.x and 2.6.x . > >-Ryan > > do you mount cdroms on linux, or remove hard drives from an sgi system, move them to linux for the netinstall? If you store the data from some source and serve it up over the network from a linux system, then it is stored on the linux system with a linux supported file type. if you do what I mentioned above, pull a formated drive from an SGI system and put it on a linux system which is on a PC, then there will have to be some allowance made for the fact that there is no PC partition table, but just the raw file system starting at block 0. whatever is on a cdrom usually requires a different file system driver than would be used to access the file system on a hard drive device, or a layer that deals with partitions, etc which a different for a cdrom than for a hard disk block device. similar goes on with accessing usb sticks as block devices. From blairrya at msu.edu Fri Apr 14 16:22:29 2006 From: blairrya at msu.edu (Ryan Blair) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 17:22:29 -0400 Subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access? In-Reply-To: <44400FF3.8090609@msm.umr.edu> References: <002701c65d93$05186ba0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <11c909eb0604111250l7b3b4186kc74c246a7746a261@mail.gmail.com> <44400851.7010907@msm.umr.edu> <20060414165928.ee3216b0.blairrya@msu.edu> <44400FF3.8090609@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20060414172229.256a2e72.blairrya@msu.edu> On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:11:15 -0700 jim stephens wrote: > do you mount cdroms on linux, or remove hard drives from an sgi > system, move them to > linux for the netinstall? If you store the data from some source and > serve it up over the > network from a linux system, then it is stored on the linux system > with a linux supported > file type. I can mount the CDROMs, images of the CDROMs, hard drives ... whatever. As far as netinstall goes, I either loop-mount the CD images and NFS-export them, or I mount and copy everything off of them and export that. I suppose if I had all the install stuff on an EFS-formatted disk, it wouldn't be much trouble to pull it out of an SGI and mount it. > if you do what I mentioned above, pull a formated drive from an SGI > system and put it on > a linux system which is on a PC, then there will have to be some > allowance made for the > fact that there is no PC partition table, but just the raw file > system starting at block 0. Well, Linux also has support for SGI partition tables ... or, you could toss the mount option seek=x blocks if you know where the partition you're looking for starts (and you don't have SGI partition table support compiled into your kernel). This works fine with both CDs and disks. > whatever is on a cdrom usually requires a different file system > driver than would be used to > access the file system on a hard drive device, or a layer that deals > with partitions, etc > which a different for a cdrom than for a hard disk block device. > similar goes on with > accessing usb sticks as block devices. Um ... no? Block device is a block device is a block device. If it's EFS-formatted, it doesn't make much difference to the Linux EFS support. Not that I've ever heard of EFS on a USB stick ... -Ryan From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Apr 14 17:10:01 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:10:01 -0700 Subject: GTTY - A Glass TTY + Load paper tape software into a PDP-8/E/F/M/A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604141510.01337.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Want a program to act as a "Glass" TTY for your PDP-8x - with paper tape file upload and capture capabilities? Free? You can download if via anonymous FTP from "bickleywest.com" or using your browser via "ftp://bickleywest.com". All you need to make it work is a serial cable from your PDP-8x TTY console (EIA RS-232 mode) to the serial port of a DOS capable PC. It's been tested with DOS 6.22 and a DOS Window in Windows 98se and Windows XT. A copy of the file "gtty.txt" which describes it's capabilities and limitations is below: ---------------------------------------------------------- GTTY - A Glass TTY + Load paper tape software into a PDP-8 ---------------------------------------------------------- by Lyle Bickley, Bickley Consulting West Inc. Inspired by K. McQuiggin's "RIM Client, Version 0.2" (July, 1998) , I decided to write a complete "Glass" TTY that could be used as a console, paper tape "reader" and "punch" for my PDP-8/F. Starting up, it is a full duplex glass TTY - and sends the characters you type to the PDP-8 and displays the characters received from the PDP-8 on the screen/monitor. Hitting the "F2" key - GTTY asks you for a PT (paper tape) filename - and lets you specify whether you want it to strip "garbage" characters from the tape before uploading it to the PDP8. After the upload, it automatically switches back to "glass" TTY mode. Hitting the "F3" key asks for the name of a "Capture" file - and then all data received from the PDP-8 is captured to the file. Note that the display is turned off - as typically the data to be "captured" is a binary punch file. Hitting the "F4" key closes the capture file and GTTY switches back to "glass" TTY mode. The other two active function keys are "F1" - Help, and "F5" - Exit. Notes: 1. No function keys get passed to the PDP-8 (even those that are not "progamatically active". 2. Filenames are limited to DOS's 8.3 filename format. 3. The GTTY startup parameters (upper or lower case) are: -P port [COM port=1,2,3 or 4] Default "1" -B baud [Baud rate=110,300,600,1200,2400,4800,9600 or 19200] Default 9600 -S stop bits [Number of stop bits=1 or 2] -H help 4. I'm a *NIX buff and haven't written DOS code for years, but I wrote GTTY as a DOS program because I know there are a lot of collectors that use "imagedisk", "Teledisk", "PUTR", etc. which only operate on DOS - and many folks who don't have *NIX systems. I've successfully tested GTTY on DOS 6.22, Windows 98 SE in a DOS window, and Windows XT [Home Edition] in a DOS window. 5. I'm including the source code, for anyone who would like to "hack" the program, add feature, etc. My only request is that if you release it back to the community that you change it's name, and maintain my copyright notice in the code and startup. Note that it is totally "free" when used for non-commercial use. Please contact me at lbickley at bickleywest.com for commercial use. 6. I wrote GTTY in "C" - and wanted to use a freely available DOS compiler and libraries. I selected Dave Dunfield's "Micro-C". Dave's compiler and libraries let you get close enough to the "metal" to make a program such as GTTY responsive and effective - easily handling communications, screen and keyboard control simultaneously. His compiler can be downloaded from: www.dunfield.com, either "free" or if you want all the examples and library source (I did) for the modest cost of $25. 7. I've successfully uploaded virtually every paper tape diagnostic available for my system (and it's I/O). In addition, I've uploaded FOCAL and other software without error at 9600 baud. I've tried it using both the M8550-YA and the M8655 "TTY" console boards with equal success. Have fun! Cheers, Lyle -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note: Forgot to add that the backspace and delete key both generate the classic TTY "rubout" character. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 14 17:20:12 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:20:12 -0700 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <20060414135512.J92530@shell.lmi.net> References: <444003E8.6060402@srv.net> <444002DB.5010105@jetnet.ab.ca> <20060414135512.J92530@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200604141520120631.62C07E1F@10.0.0.252> On 4/14/2006 at 1:57 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >The book is better. >The BBC TV series was WAY better than the [Disney] movie. ...and the radio series is better than either the book or the TV series. After all, the radio series preceded either. Cheers, Chuck From lee at geekdot.com Fri Apr 14 17:32:55 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 00:32:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: there is hope for tiny code! Message-ID: <1753.86.139.111.237.1145053975.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> >>> Or watch the movie "The hitch hikers guide to the galaxy". > Try the original BBC Radio version, personally I view that as > the best The original and best. Adams' writing and the BBC Radiophonic Workshop created something that is still unequaled nearly 30 years later. > version with the books being second, and the BBC TV version > being third. The books benefit from being able to convey far more than either the radio or TV versions. The TV version is very much a victim of it's format. > I've not bothered to waste my time on the movie. It is worth a look and could have been much much worse. There is even a cameo appearance by the Marvin from the TV series. The biggest disappointment for me was that the Vogon ships weren't yellow and they didn't just hang in the air in exactly the same way that bricks don't. Lee. From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Apr 14 17:52:03 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 18:52:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM 3420 questions In-Reply-To: <200604141550.14982.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > Does anyone know how big (dimensions, weight) an IBM 3420, and a 3083 > are? Guessing at the size, I would say about 36 by 32 by 60 inches. The tape unit and controller are the same size. The 3803 is roughly 650 pounds (280 kg), and the 3420 is just a tad lighter. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Apr 14 18:11:25 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 18:11:25 -0500 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <200604142104.k3EL4NdW005825@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200604142104.k3EL4NdW005825@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <44402C1D.5050307@oldskool.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Try the original BBC Radio version, personally I view that as the best > version with the books being second, and the BBC TV version being third. > I've not bothered to waste my time on the movie. The movie adds some additional scenes authored by Adams himself, so you should watch it if you want to experience the entire Adams gamut. The movie is a bit dry, but it's not as terrible as it could have been. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri Apr 14 18:56:29 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 19:56:29 -0400 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060414194302.056506d0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Richard may have mentioned these words: >OK, in some threads I've seen the curmudgeons shake their head back >and forth and bemoan how people don't write finely tuned hand assembly >code anymore. Drivewire for the Tandy CoCo1/2/3 (http://www.cloud9tech.com.) use hand-tuned assembly for the serial routines on the bit-banger (one bit of a PIA, toggled by software) port - they acheive 38400bps on a .89Mhz 6809 (CoCo1/2), and 57600 on a 1.78Mhz 6809 (CoCo3). I've booted NitrOS9 on my machine, and it's pretty durned quick. Not *quite* as fast as the floppy drive (and certainly not as fast as the CF memory card I have on the IDE bus ;-) but awfully handy! (Oh, and check out the SuperBoard project...) Think that's impressive? Think again! Head on over to http://www.coco3.org/ and check out Portal-9. The author (Roger Taylor) is reworking the IDE and calling it Rainbow - Roger has just gotten 57600 on the .89Mhz CoCo1/2, and 115200 on the CoCo3! The code is around 600 bytes, from what I understand. I'm working on a freeware/beerware (haven't decided yet - either way, the source will be released) library of routines for the CoCo3 which will help assembly coders do "kewl stuff" on a CoCo3 without needing the built-in ROM, setting up the video, reading the non-encoded keyboard, accessing the floppy drives, etc. I wouldn't consider my assembly coding "impressive," "phenomenal," or such, but it can't be that bad - it works! ;-) [[ That said, I certainly wouldn't do this for anything other than a hobby... At work, I primarily code in basic Bash scripting & Python when I actually wanna get work done... ;-) ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Apr 14 19:26:57 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 17:26:57 -0700 Subject: Neat score today... In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90604141421y2abfc15r48f6fd617ed7848d@mail.gmail.com> References: <200604131843440985.3A58F081@192.168.42.129> <1e1fc3e90604141421y2abfc15r48f6fd617ed7848d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200604141726570793.3F3907DB@192.168.42.129> Not at all. The beastie turned up at Alphatronics (formerly Supertronix), in Tukwila, on Andover East. Keep the peace(es). *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 14-Apr-06 at 14:21 Glen Slick wrote: >If you don't mind sharing, where did you turn this up? (Assuming this >was in the Seattle area). > >-Glen > >On 4/13/06, Bruce Lane wrote: >> While poking around for some batteries and a coax adapter at one >of the local electronics supply places -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Apr 14 20:28:12 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 21:28:12 -0400 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <20060414201659.020A07302A@linus.area51.conman.org> References: <20060414201659.020A07302A@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: <200604142128.12232.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 14 April 2006 04:16 pm, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > I remember hand constructing the smallest executable I could under IRIX > 4.0.1---I seem to recall it being about 160 bytes in length, for a "hello > world" program (and by hand-constructing it, I literally mean constructing > it byte-by-byte). Smallest executable I ever generated was a whopping 7 bytes long -- after I'd seen the "CLS" command under DOS and wanted the same thing for my CP/M box... Used standard tools, too, and didn't have to do anything particularly tricky. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From marvin at rain.org Fri Apr 14 20:34:18 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 18:34:18 -0700 Subject: Dayton Hamvention, May 19 - May 21 Message-ID: <44404D9A.11499D1B@rain.org> Just curious, is anyone on the list going to the Dayton Hamvention? I bought two selling spots, one to park, the other for "stuff" :). My expectation is that I'll arrive sometime on Thursday, and of course make sure I am there *early* on Friday morning. Since I expect to be driving straight through (about 42 hours from Santa Barbara, about 22 hours from Denver including gas and short rest breaks), if anyone is interested in sharing the driving and gas, let me know. My interest there is twofold, 1) find classic computer related stuff, and 2) sell ARDF (Amateur Radio Direction Finding) related stuff along with other "stuff" hams might be interested in. I also expect to take a pop-up canapy for *when* it rains. And if anyone going is not aware; the scroungers are out in full force on Sunday since many of the parking lot vendors just leave behind what they don't want. A friend of mine told me the story that he was out scrounging and another person came to the same spot to scrounge. A third person arrived, and looking through the stuff, asked how much a certain item was. The second person immediately started hawking the stuff :). Another story (I believe is true) is that first, parking is hard to find near Hara Arena. One ingenious soul took their car to the gas station across the street and dropped it off for an oil change. After a day at Hamvention, he then picked it up from the gas station for the price of an oil change :). You might have to have been there to realize that parking could be as far as 1/2 mile from the arena, farther if you park someplace where a shuttle would pick you up. Marvin, KE6HTS From eric at rothfus.com Fri Apr 14 20:56:36 2006 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 20:56:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Programming 2708 (1k x 8) Message-ID: <1145033407@rothfus.com> I was somewhat shocked to find out that my TopMax EPROM programmer doesn't handle the vintage 2708 1k x 8 EPROM. A very interesting little EPROM the 2708. It requires +5, -5, and 12v. Anyway, any advice out there for working with these old little beasties? I'd like to first read one, but eventually program them. Or maybe I should program the 2716 and substitute them (with appropriate bent-up pins)? Maybe, too, I could read them after telling my TopMax it is a 2716 and (again) bending up a few pins, or maybe using a pulled-pin socket. The 2708's are found in an S100 EPROM card in my newly acquired Altair. Eric From rcini at optonline.net Fri Apr 14 21:05:27 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 22:05:27 -0400 Subject: Programming 2708 (1k x 8) In-Reply-To: <1145033407@rothfus.com> Message-ID: <001401c66031$10e53a80$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Eric: What I did was build a 2708-2716 adapter using a DIP header and a DIP socket stacked together with the proper wiring to map the pins. Then, I brought out a small 3-pin connector with -5, -12 and G on it, which I powered from the EPROM card in my IMSAI. I laid my programmer on the open mainframe, put the 2708 in the socket, put the stack in the programmer, hooked up the power cable and set the programming software for 2716. Works like a charm. By the way, the reverse can work, using a 2716 in a 2708 socket, with the right pin mapping. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric J. Rothfus Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 9:57 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Programming 2708 (1k x 8) I was somewhat shocked to find out that my TopMax EPROM programmer doesn't handle the vintage 2708 1k x 8 EPROM. A very interesting little EPROM the 2708. It requires +5, -5, and 12v. Anyway, any advice out there for working with these old little beasties? I'd like to first read one, but eventually program them. Or maybe I should program the 2716 and substitute them (with appropriate bent-up pins)? Maybe, too, I could read them after telling my TopMax it is a 2716 and (again) bending up a few pins, or maybe using a pulled-pin socket. The 2708's are found in an S100 EPROM card in my newly acquired Altair. Eric From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Apr 14 22:15:52 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 22:15:52 -0500 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Got it to boot! Message-ID: <20060415021651.KMNG20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Hi Guys, Got the ADDS mentor 2000 to boot today. I have two small books which came with the system: MENTOR Introduction MENTOR Installation Giude M2000/M2500 Fortunately the installation guide has the pinouts for the serial ports and some basic information about the startup monitor. On power-up, on Port#0 I get: ADDS Mentor Diagnostic Assurance Monitor Release 1.2 Copyright 1984 ... (The following tests take about 15 MINITES to complete): EPIC Test passed RAM test Card 0000 Bank 0001-0003 (several times) Passed PATSI Test passed Disk Test Drive 0000 Track 0000-(approx 1300 hex) Passed Tape Test - Tape drive not ready - Passed 9 Comm lines 512k Core OPTIONS [X,F,NX]= Entering 'X' gets me: Spooler Started Linking workspace for process 0 < Welcome to ADDS Mentor > <00:00:12 Release 2.4 Rev(8) 23 SEP 1988> Time=(enter time here) Date=(enter date here) Did you just reload OS from tape? (Entered NO) ADDS Mentor (mumble) ... Login? >From the Install Guide I determine that the username SYSPROG is the "superuser", and the system does recognize this name and prompts for a password (it does not prompt for passwords to names it does not know) - unfortunately I have no idea what the password might be... On the inside of the drive cover, I found a handwritten label with two usernames and passwords - one of them is either no longer valid, or I can't decypher it (hard to read writing), however I was able to figure out what the other one was, and successfully logged in to the system. Unfortunately this username comes up with a little menu system offering various business system options, and I could not figure out how to get to a command shell. (Entering BREAK locked up the system - 20 mins to reboot!). Some questions: 1) Does anyone know of a way to bypass the SYSPROG password? 2) Is there any way to make the system boot without waiting for the power-on tests to complete. I can get to the monitor command prompt, and I can run various tests from there, but I have not found a way to boot the system other than to power-off, power-on and wait for the tests to complete. [One good thing I did find in the docs, was the command to shutdown/park the drive properly from the monitor - useful since I can't get to a command prompt - According to the docs I need to be logged in as SYSPROG to SHUTDOWN] 3) Anyone know exactly what type of tapes this machines uses (If I take it apart and get the drive model number, this might give us a clue). I found a function in the monitor which apparently backs up the hard drive to tape ... 4) Anyone know of a way to "break out" of a program launched at login to a command shell (the docs says it's called TCL for Terminal Command Language). 5) Anyone know what the "F" or "NX" commands do in response to OPTIONS [X,F,NX]= Do any of these options let me reinit the system, reset the SYSPROG password ? 6) If I answer "Yes" to "Did you just reload from tape", what exactly will this do? ... Will it let me re-init the system/reset the SYSPROG password? 6) Any other info, esp. about the "Diagnostic Assurance Monitor" commands etc. Would be most useful... ? Regards, Dave PS: The TRS-80 Model II that I picked up along with it works too! -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Apr 14 22:28:37 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 22:28:37 -0500 Subject: GE Terminet 200 - original Operators Manual available Message-ID: <20060415022935.HWKD8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Btw - when I picked up the TRS-80 and ADDS on the weekend, I was asked to browse a box of "stuff" in case I wanted any of it - most of it was older PeeCee stuff not interesting enough to reserve space for (or risk getting stuck with), however one of the items I did grab was an original General Electric TermiNet 200 PRINTER OPERATOR'S MANUAL GEK-49326B In very good shape - I don't have a TermiNet, however I recall that a few people on the list have them ... if you have one and want the original manual to go with it, let me know... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Apr 14 21:40:27 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 19:40:27 -0700 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - IMPORTANT In-Reply-To: <20060415021651.KMNG20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060415021651.KMNG20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <44405D1B.9070008@msm.umr.edu> >OPTIONS [X,F,NX]= > >Entering 'X' gets me: > >Spooler Started >Linking workspace for process 0 > >< Welcome to ADDS Mentor > ><00:00:12 Release 2.4 Rev(8) 23 SEP 1988> > >Time=(enter time here) >Date=(enter date here) >Did you just reload OS from tape? (Entered NO) > >ADDS Mentor (mumble) ... Login? > > > you should not try the other options, F will destroy the hard disk, and NX is probably not useful. X is a quick start that loads the monitor and runs the system w/o restoring the files. F will erase the file section and expect to reload data from tape. when you have the Time prompt, try hitting a "break" (async break is 10 or more bit times of space) and see if you get a prompt like I 6.123 ! if you do try typing END. if that happens then let either Jay or I know and we'll walk you thru resetting the SYSPROG password, and other chores. You need a good tape for the tape drive to try to generate a backup before doing much more, and you may well have a good system. If you already have tried poking at the system (like the "F" above) you may already be in trouble. For what it's worth, the system is probably an all caps system at least at the command line, so try everything you do with the cap lock on. Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 14 21:48:35 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 19:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <200604142128.12232.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <20060414201659.020A07302A@linus.area51.conman.org> <200604142128.12232.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <20060414194431.H6715@shell.lmi.net> > Smallest executable I ever generated was a whopping 7 bytes long -- after I'd > seen the "CLS" command under DOS and wanted the same thing for my CP/M box... > Used standard tools, too, and didn't have to do anything particularly > tricky. the smallest executable is 0 bytes. With several OS's, it will perfom a jump to 100h, and rerun whatever executable is still in RAM. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 14 21:55:19 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 21:55:19 -0500 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Got it to boot! References: <20060415021651.KMNG20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <001f01c66038$087e0730$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> You wrote... > Got the ADDS mentor 2000 to boot today. Awesome! > OPTIONS [X,F,NX]= Careful... do NOT hit the "F" option, unless you have a full backup tape that includes monitor and abs sections. You'll be sorry. F option kills off the files from disk, then expects to load all from tape!. > 1) Does anyone know of a way to bypass the SYSPROG > password? Yup, but it isn't easy (unless you're well up on the system debugger). I'll go through it off-list if no one answers. > 2) Is there any way to make the system boot without waiting > for the power-on tests to complete. I can get to the monitor > command prompt, and I can run various tests from there, > but I have not found a way to boot the system other than to > power-off, power-on and wait for the tests to complete. I am not that familiar with the ADDS pick implementation, but I would suspect this is a jumper on the cpu board. > 3) Anyone know exactly what type of tapes this machines > uses (If I take it apart and get the drive model number, this > might give us a clue). I found a function in the monitor which > apparently backs up the hard drive to tape ... Different for many vendors, but the most common were DC6150, DC6250, and DC6525. The backup in the monitor will be a binary image backup, not a formatted pick backup (ie, you can't use that backup at the F option). > 4) Anyone know of a way to "break out" of a program launched > at login to a command shell (the docs says it's called TCL > for Terminal Command Language). Break key, unless it's disabled. > 5) Anyone know what the "F" or "NX" commands do in response > to OPTIONS [X,F,NX]= > Do any of these options let me reinit the system, reset the SYSPROG > password ? F is "erase all files on disk, and then reload this tape here I have as the only files on the system". NX is probably something to return to the firmware diags that you were in before you got the pick "options' prompt. > 6) If I answer "Yes" to "Did you just reload from tape", what exactly will > this do? ... Will it let me re-init the system/reset the SYSPROG > password? This is familiar, but for some reason I'm totally drawing a blank on what this is for. > 6) Any other info, esp. about the "Diagnostic Assurance Monitor" > commands etc. Would be most useful... ? Nah, the diagnostics were absolutely completely different on each machine, as they were not part of Pick at all. So, this is something very adds2000 specific. Need a manual for it. Often many of the diag functions required raw controller byte fields to be input, so the function was useless without the docs. Jay From drb at msu.edu Fri Apr 14 22:09:58 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 23:09:58 -0400 Subject: IBM 3420 questions In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:50:14 EDT.) <200604141550.14982.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200604141550.14982.pat@computer-refuge.org> <22132.88.211.153.27.1145039747.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <200604150309.k3F39whV014319@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Does anyone know how big (dimensions, weight) an IBM 3420, and a > 3083 are? Both units have a footprint pretty close to that of a 2003 CPU, but are not as tall. The 3803 is perhaps 55" high, the 3420 a bit taller due to the control panel. De From drb at msu.edu Fri Apr 14 22:12:38 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 23:12:38 -0400 Subject: Dayton Hamvention, May 19 - May 21 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 14 Apr 2006 18:34:18 PDT.) <44404D9A.11499D1B@rain.org> References: <44404D9A.11499D1B@rain.org> Message-ID: <200604150312.k3F3CcFX014455@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Just curious, is anyone on the list going to the Dayton Hamvention? I > bought two selling spots, one to park, the other for "stuff" :). I'll be there. Post your space numbers so folks can look you up. > 1) find classic computer related stuff, and 2) sell ARDF (Amateur > Radio Direction Finding) related stuff Hey, double temptation! No fair! De From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 14 22:16:07 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 20:16:07 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 32, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: <200604150225.k3F2Nqdi085172@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604150225.k3F2Nqdi085172@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <44406577.7010806@sbcglobal.net> I measured the ones I have in my garage. The 3420 is 30" wide x 30" deep x 66.5" tall including the casters and control panel on top. The 3803 is 30" wide x 28" deep x 60" tall. The carrier estimated weight for both of mine was 1150 pounds. Bob >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:50:14 -0400 >From: Patrick Finnegan >Subject: IBM 3420 questions >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Message-ID: <200604141550.14982.pat at computer-refuge.org> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >On Friday 14 April 2006 14:35, Edward wrote: > > >>Hi, >> >>Can someone recommend me a freighter who can pickup a cabinet >>and do all the necessary work including putting in on a pallet, >>wrapping it in plastic etc and ship it? >>Location is Westmont (IL) and is destined for The Netherlands. >> >> > >So, now that I see others might be interested in this stuff. > >Does anyone know how big (dimensions, weight) an IBM 3420, and a 3083 >are? > >Pat > > From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Apr 14 22:34:17 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 23:34:17 -0400 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <20060414194431.H6715@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060414201659.020A07302A@linus.area51.conman.org> <200604142128.12232.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060414194431.H6715@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200604142334.17286.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 14 April 2006 10:48 pm, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Smallest executable I ever generated was a whopping 7 bytes long -- after > > I'd seen the "CLS" command under DOS and wanted the same thing for my > > CP/M box... Used standard tools, too, and didn't have to do anything > > particularly tricky. > > the smallest executable is 0 bytes. > With several OS's, it will perfom a jump to 100h, and rerun whatever > executable is still in RAM. Now that you mention it I remember doing that one under CP/M too, called it "go". :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Apr 14 23:41:55 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 23:41:55 -0500 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - IMPORTANT In-Reply-To: <44405D1B.9070008@msm.umr.edu> References: <20060415021651.KMNG20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20060415034254.LFAO20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Thanks Jim and Jay - I've combined into one response... > when you have the Time prompt, try hitting a "break" (async break is 10 > or more > bit times of space) and see if you get a prompt like > > I 6.123 > ! Will do. My ADM-3A asserts break for as long as I hold the key so this should not be a problem. > if you do try typing END. if that happens then let either Jay or I know > and we'll > walk you thru resetting the SYSPROG password, and other chores. You need > a good tape for the tape drive to try to generate a backup before doing much > more, and you may well have a good system. If you already have > tried poking at the system (like the "F" above) you may already be in > trouble. No - I only used 'X' because I mentioned it in the installation manual. I have not tried any other options. The system still boots OK. > For what it's worth, the system is probably an all caps system at least > at the > command line, so try everything you do with the cap lock on. Already figured that out - the user names have to be in upper case to be recognized. > > OPTIONS [X,F,NX]= > Careful... do NOT hit the "F" option, unless you have a full backup tape > that includes monitor and abs sections. You'll be sorry. F option kills off > the files from disk, then expects to load all from tape!. Thanks to both of you for the heads-up. > > 1) Does anyone know of a way to bypass the SYSPROG > > password? > Yup, but it isn't easy (unless you're well up on the system debugger). I'll > go through it off-list if no one answers. Found another manual - "system operations" manual. Had a hand-written note on the page telling you to login as SYSPROG of "password: xxxx", however the password noted is NOT the right one... Sigh! > > 2) Is there any way to make the system boot without waiting > > for the power-on tests to complete. I can get to the monitor > > command prompt, and I can run various tests from there, > > but I have not found a way to boot the system other than to > > power-off, power-on and wait for the tests to complete. > I am not that familiar with the ADDS pick implementation, but I would > suspect this is a jumper on the cpu board. I did find this in the operations manual .. the monitor command "E T" boots from tape, and "E D" boots from disk - so I can hit ESC to exit the 15-minite test, then "E D" to boot the disk... and that works. > > 3) Anyone know exactly what type of tapes this machines > > uses (If I take it apart and get the drive model number, this > > might give us a clue). I found a function in the monitor which > > apparently backs up the hard drive to tape ... > Different for many vendors, but the most common were DC6150, DC6250, and > DC6525. The backup in the monitor will be a binary image backup, not a > formatted pick backup (ie, you can't use that backup at the F option). I've got some of each of those ... but I have no idea if the monitor command requires the tape to be preformatted ... I did find in the operations manual the details on how to create a new sysgen tape from the running system ... but I have to get logged into SYSPROG first. > > 4) Anyone know of a way to "break out" of a program launched > > at login to a command shell (the docs says it's called TCL > > for Terminal Command Language). > Break key, unless it's disabled. Hitting BREAK cased the machine to lock-up tight... No more response of any kind, not even newlines.... > > 5) Anyone know what the "F" or "NX" commands do in response > > to OPTIONS [X,F,NX]= > > Do any of these options let me reinit the system, reset the SYSPROG > > password ? > F is "erase all files on disk, and then reload this tape here I have as the > only files on the system". NX is probably something to return to the > firmware diags that you were in before you got the pick "options' prompt. Thanks - I think I'll pass on both of these until I learn more. > > 6) If I answer "Yes" to "Did you just reload from tape", what exactly will > > this do? ... Will it let me re-init the system/reset the SYSPROG > > password? > This is familiar, but for some reason I'm totally drawing a blank on what > this is for. Apparently you can also enter "RECOVER" at the TIME= prompt, but as far as I can tell, this too needs a backup tape of some sort. > > 6) Any other info, esp. about the "Diagnostic Assurance Monitor" > > commands etc. Would be most useful... ? > Nah, the diagnostics were absolutely completely different on each machine, > as they were not part of Pick at all. So, this is something very adds2000 > specific. Need a manual for it. Often many of the diag functions required > raw controller byte fields to be input, so the function was useless without > the docs. Ok - I've learned a bit - how to boot from tape or disk, how to shutdown/park the drives, how to re-run various tests. I've contacted the guy I got it from to see if he can find any more docs, or recall passwords etc. (or find any tapes) - he hasn't used the system is a long time, and I got the impression that what he gave me was going to be "it"... Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Apr 15 00:08:44 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 00:08:44 -0500 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - IMPORTANT In-Reply-To: <44405D1B.9070008@msm.umr.edu> References: <20060415021651.KMNG20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20060415040943.LMKJ20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > when you have the Time prompt, try hitting a "break" (async break is 10 > or more > bit times of space) and see if you get a prompt like > > I 6.123 > ! Hitting BREAK at the TIME= prompt locks up the system, much the same as I described when hitting it while logged-on. I can however get to this monitor by hitting BREAK shortly after pressing 'X' at the OPTIONS prompt ... The display looks exactly like you show I x.xxx (different numbers) ! There is also a 'TRAP' button on the front of the unit - I can hit it at any time to get to a different monitor. Here is a sample session showing what happens, and the commands known to that monitor: A D D S / A S D M E N T O R ADDS MENTOR DIAGNOSTIC ASSURANCE MONITOR RELEASE 1.2 Copyright (c) 1984 Applied Digital Data Systems Inc. EPIC Test - Passed 00:00:00 RAM Test - 00:00:01 Command 0>e d 9 COMM LINES 512K CORE OPTIONS [X,F,NX]= X SPOOLER STARTED LINKING WORKSPACE FOR PROCESS 0 <<< Welcome to ADDS MENTOR >>> <<< 00:00:11 Release 2.4 Rev (8) 23 SEP 1988 >>> THIS IS THE COLD-START PROCEDURE ===> IF YOU ARE RECOVERING FROM A CRASH, TYPE IN 'RECOVER' WHEN YOU ARE ASKED TO INPUT THE TIME. 00:00:14 23 SEP 1988 COUNT SYSTEM-ERRORS 16 ITEMS COUNTED TIME = *** Here I hit 'TRAP' *** FLUSHING MEMORY. FLUSH COMPLETE * TRAP * BREAK AT 805022 00:00:06 .h 00:00:06 A - Set the CE card trap [ADDR] {DATA} {OPT}. B - Set/clear the breakpoint C - Compare memory data D - Display memory data E - Execute the Boot F - Fill memory with a constant G - Goto the current RPC H - Help the operator with a menu of commands I - Input/output from/to and I/O port J - Jump to the specified address K - L - LOAD or LOADHEX the Z8000 or MACZ hex file M - Move data in ram N - Next (single step) O - Set the Time of Day P - Toggle the printer enable Q - Quit the monitor, enter transparent mode R - Display/modify the user register values S - SEND a hex file to disk T - Test the specified ram U - Read the Disk V - Write the Disk W - Read the Tape X - Write the Tape Y - Backspace the Tape N records Z - Forward space the Tape N records 00:00:06 . Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 14 23:23:03 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 21:23:03 -0700 Subject: someone else with an adds mentor 2000 Message-ID: <22907E11-C8C3-4B55-9581-375357D17ED7@bitsavers.org> at least as of 2003.. maybe he turned up some docs http://www.digibarn.com/weblog/blogger1.html From Eddie Thomas (pasnocone at earthlink.net) Gentlemen: I?ve been a hobbyist/engineer of PC systems since I can remember. I was introduced to computers in 1974. I?ve designed one 8086 system for the S-100 during the winter of 81/82 of which never made production. At that time I also laid out the concept of CABLE MODEMS for mass bi-directional public communications. The idea was too far fetched to be seriously taken into production back then. It?s amazing how things change ? 20 years later! I enjoyed your documentation on the ALTAIR 8800. I stumbled upon your site as I searched for S-100 prototyping boards. Although I currently live in PA, I believe I have the original schematics published in Popular Electronics (Jan ?75) for the ALTAIR stashed in the attic in NJ. I also believe I have most of the Popular Electronics issues which addressed the S-100 based systems. I have not found any other rags that have this information available. I?d be happy to forward the articles if you?d like. I will contact P.E. in regards to duplicating this info as to not violate copyright laws. S-100 was onto something before Big Blue stomped S-100 like a New York City roach. Here's a question. I am currently searching for information for the ADDS Mentor 2000. It uses the Zilog 8001 segmented processor under the PICK OS. I have no background in PICK OS. So far the only confirmed operation is the POST. MENTOR 2000 specific manuals would be greatly appreciated. PICK OS manuals or souces to gain some tech knowledge into the workings would also be appreciated. Trying some DOS and CP-M style commands yielded this: The machine attempts and fails to find a TAPE DRIVE and HARD DRIVE. The tape drive interface card is inoperative [installing it stops the POST]. The original 68 Meg H/D (Hitachi 511-8, ST-502 MFM) was reused years ago in a Netware Server. I am looking for hardware manuals specifically detailing hardware interface characteristics and/or this system's bus. I can engineer a compatible ISA interface for bi- directional communications to my Intel 302-25 PC if I can find the BUS pinouts. The Zilog 8000 series is similar to the Z80 in timing characteristics for BUS I/O operations. In the event I can finally gain external I/O to this system I've located several OS's for the Zilog 8000 family, of which some re- writes will be required to gain full system functionality. It's apparent the OS is in two EPROMs, of which will be preserved. It is my intention to engineer an updated I/O card to support Floppy disks, IDE hard drives, newer memory products and Ethernet. AT&T originally supported the ADDS systems. NCR (AT&T?s sellout company) would supply information as would some scarce sources for an exuberant price. ALSO I would like to find information on the WD-1002 HDO hard drive controller card (used in the TANDY PC, I believe) Specifically, I need cable signaling information so possibly to use an IDE translator adaptor. I've found one source but have not heard back from them in about 6 weeks. Here?s a list of what hardware is installed (original): 1: CPU Card Zilog Z8001 w/socket for 2nd processor (4 layer) a) ADMIN Serial Port header b) TWO WD-1002 interface port headers c) Front Panel Control header 2: 16 RS-232 serial / 1 parallel port (4 layer) a) Two 50 pin headers (to 2 banks of 8 9-pin serial ports on rear) b) One parallel port header 3: 256K memory card Parity Checked (4 layer) a) 4 banks of 9 4164?s 4: 3 port QIC-02 tape interface (defective) (2 layer, EZ 2 trace/repair) 5: Hitachi 511-8 68 MB H/D w/WD-1002-1 HDO daughter card 6: Archive 60 MB Tape Drive, Full height (defective) Although the ADDS Mentor BUS is 100 pin, it is quite obvious it is NOT S-100 just by examining the power assignments. I am currently diagnosing the TAPE DRIVE interface card hopefully have it back in operation soon. I have a newer Archive QIC-02 drive that should work. It can read/write 60, 120 and 250 MB tapes. Any information, sites and/or folks wishing to get involved w/my resurrection of the ADDS Mentor 2000 are welcome to contact me at: pasnocone at earthlink.net Please put ?Mentor 2000? in the subject line Best of luck and congratulations on a great start with the Museum! Eddie From marvin at rain.org Fri Apr 14 23:24:47 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 21:24:47 -0700 Subject: Dayton Hamvention, May 19 - May 21 Message-ID: <4440758F.3B50C232@rain.org> At this point, I don't know what the space numbers are, but I'll post them as soon as I know. If we have enough interest, maybe we can set up a dinner either Friday or Saturday night. I have some classic computer related (heavier) stuff here that some people on the list were (are?) interested in, and I can bring that stuff and meet at the Hamvention. I *really* dislike packing up heavier things, and some of it is almost not worth the price of shipping. I can post some of the stuff to VCM (http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/) and just bring it with me to save on shipping (AND my great dislike of packing larger, heavier things.) OT - If anyone is into ARDF, there may be an event at Dayton again. The first time I was there (1999), I (along with several others) gave a talk at the foxhunting forum on ARDF and what it was like to "compete" at the world championships. And after the talk, most of my time was spent checking out the fabulous parking lot vendors ... I was in heaven :). > > Just curious, is anyone on the list going to the Dayton Hamvention? I > > bought two selling spots, one to park, the other for "stuff" :). > > I'll be there. Post your space numbers so folks can look you up. > > > 1) find classic computer related stuff, and 2) sell ARDF (Amateur > > Radio Direction Finding) related stuff > > Hey, double temptation! No fair! > > De From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Apr 14 23:40:50 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 23:40:50 -0500 Subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access? Message-ID: <47103f4767c841adacd4065880cd2025@valleyimplants.com> Linux EFS works fine on SGI disks, as long as you have SGI disklabel support compiled in, but it is read-only. XFS is read-write. The mount device is, as was said, dks[scsi disk](x)d(y)s(z) with x the SCSI bus number, d the SCSI id number, and z the slice number. The PROM is different, with SCSI drives represented as dksc(x,y,z). Other interfaces use diferent identifiers, like dkip. common slices are 0 (root), 7 (option disk, non-bootable second drive, also used for CD-ROMs), 10 (the volume partition), 1 (swap), 8 (volume header) and 4 (usr, not present on modern default disklabels). SASH (the Stand Alone SHell) is in the volume header and is instrumental in booting. The volume header is a small section of the disk that has a filesystem that can be understood by the PROM monitor. It contains the disklabel, symbolic monitor, IDE (interactive diagnostic environment) and SASH. The firmware bootstrap machines load SASH from the volheader (which the ROM understands) and then SASH loads IRIX from the main filesystem (which it understands) Really a cool system, you don't need anything to write a bootblock, and it is possible to load SASH from a CD-ROM and start the disk-resident copy of IRIX if your SASH is corrupted. dvhtool is the IRIX utility provided for writing/reading the volheader. SASH, however, needs to be the correct version to understand the filesystem (a 5.3 EFS SASH can't boot a 6.2 XFS partition) Since SASH understands the filesystem, you can use basic commands (cp, cat, ls, setenv), but no UNIX utilities like vi. If you could create an accessible replacement passwd, it could be copied over on top of the original passwd file [dksc(0,1,0)/etc/passwd]. You need to be very careful, especially with IRIX 5.3, to get a version that runs on your hardware. A big gotcha is with later machines that come with 2MB of cache (IRIX 5.3 base won't run on them) 6.2 is easier, there are only two versions, one for R10k Indigo2s and one for everyone else (the R10k I2 also supports all other I2s). It would be much easier if SGI had made later releases support all earlier machines, but they didn't. The 2MB cache issue can, in rumor, be sidestepped by installing base IRIX 5.3 using a 1MB cache CPU(PM1-PM5), applying all patches, and then plugging in the 2MB PM(6 or 7) From waisun.chia at gmail.com Fri Apr 14 23:46:57 2006 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 12:46:57 +0800 Subject: GTTY - A Glass TTY + Load paper tape software into a PDP-8/E/F/M/A In-Reply-To: <200604141510.01337.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200604141510.01337.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On 4/15/06, Lyle Bickley wrote: > 4. I'm a *NIX buff and haven't written DOS code for years, but I wrote > GTTY as a DOS program because I know there are a lot of collectors > that use "imagedisk", "Teledisk", "PUTR", etc. which only operate > on DOS - and many folks who don't have *NIX systems. I've successfully > tested GTTY on DOS 6.22, Windows 98 SE in a DOS window, and Windows XT > [Home Edition] in a DOS window. Hey felllow *nix buff! :-) Would a *nix (specifically Linux) port be in your vision in the near future? I'm asking because my home is a Microsoft-free zone...so I'll have problem with your DOS exe.. From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Apr 14 22:49:27 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 23:49:27 -0400 Subject: GTTY - A Glass TTY + Load paper tape software into a PDP-8/E/F/M/A In-Reply-To: References: <200604141510.01337.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <200604142349.27260.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 15 April 2006 00:46, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > On 4/15/06, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > 4. I'm a *NIX buff and haven't written DOS code for years, but I > > wrote GTTY as a DOS program because I know there are a lot of > > collectors that use "imagedisk", "Teledisk", "PUTR", etc. which > > only operate on DOS - and many folks who don't have *NIX systems. > > I've successfully tested GTTY on DOS 6.22, Windows 98 SE in a DOS > > window, and Windows XT [Home Edition] in a DOS window. > > Hey felllow *nix buff! :-) > Would a *nix (specifically Linux) port be in your vision in the near > future? I'm asking because my home is a Microsoft-free zone...so I'll > have problem with your DOS exe.. FWIW, you could probably use FreeDOS with DOSemu or standalone as well.. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 15 00:09:02 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 23:09:02 -0600 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <200604142334.17286.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <20060414201659.020A07302A@linus.area51.conman.org> <200604142128.12232.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060414194431.H6715@shell.lmi.net> <200604142334.17286.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <44407FEE.4000800@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Friday 14 April 2006 10:48 pm, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>>Smallest executable I ever generated was a whopping 7 bytes long -- after >>>I'd seen the "CLS" command under DOS and wanted the same thing for my >>>CP/M box... Used standard tools, too, and didn't have to do anything >>>particularly tricky. >> >>the smallest executable is 0 bytes. >>With several OS's, it will perfom a jump to 100h, and rerun whatever >>executable is still in RAM. > > > Now that you mention it I remember doing that one under CP/M too, called it > "go". :-) Well your 0's must be different from my 0's . They must have hidden /'s to make them larger or you take advantage with a bug/feature? with cp/m. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 15 01:13:07 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 18:13:07 +1200 Subject: Dayton Hamvention, May 19 - May 21 In-Reply-To: <44404D9A.11499D1B@rain.org> References: <44404D9A.11499D1B@rain.org> Message-ID: On 4/15/06, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > Just curious, is anyone on the list going to the Dayton Hamvention? Gonna have to miss it this year. See you in 2007, though. Can't wait to hear the stories and reports of interesting stuff found. Enjoy, -ethan N8TVD From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Apr 15 01:13:56 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 23:13:56 -0700 Subject: IBM SP-2 Parallel super computer for rescue at Uof W, Seattle, May 6th Message-ID: Downloaded the latest U of Washington Surplus sale info and they indicate they will be auctioning off a "IBM SP-2" Mainframe. From what I can find out it is a R 6000-39H or such vintage multi processor machine. Sale is May 6th, 10:00 AM, Preview at 8 am and also the day before on Friday May 5 from noon till 7 pm. I guess there will be online bidding via Proxibid (I just found this out myself). I used to travel to the Uof W auction regularly for the wide varietry of stuff. There is a regular Surplus property sale at the same time with a black box that could be a NEXT Cube. www.uwsurplus.com Click on Auction or Public Store. I can't make it so if anyone gets it let the list know -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Apr 15 04:21:48 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 10:21:48 +0100 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <44407FEE.4000800@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20060414201659.020A07302A@linus.area51.conman.org> <200604142128.12232.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060414194431.H6715@shell.lmi.net> <200604142334.17286.rtellason@blazenet.net> <44407FEE.4000800@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4440BB2C.2080802@gjcp.net> woodelf wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> On Friday 14 April 2006 10:48 pm, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>>> Smallest executable I ever generated was a whopping 7 bytes long -- >>>> after >>>> I'd seen the "CLS" command under DOS and wanted the same thing for my >>>> CP/M box... Used standard tools, too, and didn't have to do anything >>>> particularly tricky. >>> >>> the smallest executable is 0 bytes. >>> With several OS's, it will perfom a jump to 100h, and rerun whatever >>> executable is still in RAM. >> >> >> Now that you mention it I remember doing that one under CP/M too, >> called it "go". :-) > > Well your 0's must be different from my 0's . They must have hidden /'s > to make them larger or you take advantage with a bug/feature? with cp/m. Nope. Think about it - CP/M will load in a .COM file starting at 0100h (overwriting what was previously there) and then jump to it. If the file is zero bytes long, it will load zero bytes (overwriting *nothing*) and then jump to 0100h. So whatever was the last program loaded and run will be restarted, possibly maintaining all state. WordStar IIRC didn't even clobber its copy/paste buffer. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Apr 15 04:25:26 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 10:25:26 +0100 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060414194302.056506d0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060414194302.056506d0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4440BC06.7040903@gjcp.net> Roger Merchberger wrote: > http://www.coco3.org/ and check out Portal-9. The author (Roger Taylor) Seems to have been domain-squatted. Gordon. From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Apr 15 07:13:32 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 07:13:32 -0500 Subject: someone else with an adds mentor 2000 In-Reply-To: <22907E11-C8C3-4B55-9581-375357D17ED7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20060415111431.MWTP8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > at least as of 2003.. > maybe he turned up some docs > > http://www.digibarn.com/weblog/blogger1.html > > From Eddie Thomas (pasnocone at earthlink.net) >... > Here's a question. I am currently searching for information for the > ADDS Mentor 2000. It uses the Zilog 8001 segmented processor under > the PICK OS. I have no background in PICK OS. So far the only > confirmed operation is the POST. MENTOR 2000 specific manuals would > be greatly appreciated. PICK OS manuals or souces to gain some tech > knowledge into the workings would also be appreciated. Thanks for the tip Al, I too found this reference in my early searches, and promptly emailed him, however the email address is no longer valid... Does anyone know how to contact Eddie Thomas? Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com Sat Apr 15 06:55:03 2006 From: Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com (Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 07:55:03 EDT Subject: Tandy Model 16b computers availabe Message-ID: <3c2.12e103.31723917@wmconnect.com> Hi Kelly, I got your reply and it is only 127 miles to your town but are the TRS-80's with the 8in floppy's or Tandy's Mod 16b's. Thanks, Al DePermentier From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Apr 15 08:59:22 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 08:59:22 -0500 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - A little more success/info Message-ID: <20060415130020.QTTZ20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Hi Guys, Found a couple of docs on the net which proved useful. One "A guide to the pick operating system" - a very brief summary of the system, and gives a few commands... 2nd was a "hackers guide", which gave a list of common accounts ... So I tried them on my system, and here is what I found: COLDSTART SUPPORT - These exist, but have unknown passwords ACC BLOCK-CONVERT SYSTEM-ERRORS - These exist, have no passwords, and drop you into a '>' prompt, however it appears to have NO commands. No matter what I try, I get: ERRMSG [ERRMSG] 3 ERRMSG - As above, except that the message I get is: [3] What was that? -- Now to the more interesting ones -- BACKUP - Exists, no password, launches a tape backup menu. It appears that I can do a backup of the system to tape from here. GAMES - Exists, no password, launches a menu of games you can play (there's quite a few).With the option "Press NL to exit" Hitting return (blank line) drops you to the '>' prompt, however this appears to be a fully functional TCL shell. You can do WHO, WHAT, WHERE etc. I found LISTVERBS and it shows 147 commands. Haven't tried, but looks like I can format and manipulate tapes from here. Also looks like I've got BASIC, and EDITor - there's a COMPILE command, but I have no idea what for... Lots of others. Btw - Hitting BREAK in any of the above accounts once logged in does get you to the '!' debugger - END resumes. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sat Apr 15 08:14:13 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 09:14:13 -0400 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <4440BC06.7040903@gjcp.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060414194302.056506d0@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060414194302.056506d0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060415091258.05516e80@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Gordon JC Pearce may have mentioned these words: >Roger Merchberger wrote: > >>http://www.coco3.org/ and check out Portal-9. The author (Roger Taylor) > >Seems to have been domain-squatted. No, brainfart on my part. It's www.coco3.com - lately I've dealt with so many .orgs that it rolled off my fingers without even thinking. :-/ Sorry about that! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 15 10:57:15 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 16:57:15 +0100 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <444117DB.4080805@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > > interesting programs in 256 BYTES or less! Hmmm, apparently they can't write a website that works though (or at least the oneliner / news bits are totally borked in Opera 8.52) > There are some interesting things happening in the past few years in > the "4K" category as well. Some people have managed to squeeze in an > original music score, decent 3D scenes and a running time of several > minutes without getting boring. Hmm, vague memories of the old DOS-based mode-X demos - some of those were pretty darn impressive as I recall (I don't think that executable size was a considered parameter though; it was more about squeezing as much as possible out of VGA hardware) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 15 11:02:28 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 17:02:28 +0100 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <20060414135512.J92530@shell.lmi.net> References: <444003E8.6060402@srv.net> <444002DB.5010105@jetnet.ab.ca> <20060414135512.J92530@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <44411914.5070809@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Well, you're not going to like it, but it took a very large computer to >>> come >>> up with that number (read the book). I'd go into more details, but I've >>> got to >>> check out the diodes going down the left side of my robot... > On Fri, 14 Apr 2006, woodelf wrote: >> Or watch the movie "The hitch hikers guide to the galaxy". > > The book is better. > The BBC TV series was WAY better than the [Disney] movie. That seems to be a *very* common thing. It's always sad to see the current generation basing their experiences on remakes of things rather than seeing the original(s) first. I meant to bring the HGTG books with me to the US and went and left them in England, grrr! It's been interesting watching American friends trying to make sense of Doctor Who - hopefully the original BBC TV series will be shown at some point as it's so vastly superior to the remake :-( cheers Jules From cctalk at catcorner.org Sat Apr 15 11:17:24 2006 From: cctalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 12:17:24 -0400 Subject: Tandy Model 16b computers availabe Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E303607D@MEOW.catcorner.org> Model 16bs have 8" floppies. Is that what you're asking? The following Tandy/Radio Shack computers have 8" drives standard: Model II Model 12 Model 16 Model 16b Model 6000 Tandy 10 > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of > Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com > Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 7:55 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Tandy Model 16b computers availabe > > > Hi Kelly, I got your reply and it is only 127 miles to your > town but are the > TRS-80's with the 8in floppy's or Tandy's Mod 16b's. > Thanks, Al DePermentier > From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Apr 15 11:55:45 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 09:55:45 -0700 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <44411914.5070809@yahoo.co.uk> References: <444003E8.6060402@srv.net> <444002DB.5010105@jetnet.ab.ca> <20060414135512.J92530@shell.lmi.net> <44411914.5070809@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44412591.8050109@DakotaCom.Net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> Well, you're not going to like it, but it took a very large computer to >>>> come >>>> up with that number (read the book). I'd go into more details, but I've >>>> got to >>>> check out the diodes going down the left side of my robot... >> On Fri, 14 Apr 2006, woodelf wrote: >>> Or watch the movie "The hitch hikers guide to the galaxy". >> >> The book is better. >> The BBC TV series was WAY better than the [Disney] movie. I've a "making of" that was quite amusing -- especially to see how "low tech" the special effects were! :> > That seems to be a *very* common thing. It's always sad to see the > current generation basing their experiences on remakes of things rather > than seeing the original(s) first. For a good exercise, compare books from which movies have been made to books made from movies. The former are usually much richer. The latter are almost cartoonish in quality. Good examples: _The Sentinel_ vs. _2001_ vs. the movie thereof (Clarke also has a good book describing alternate endings for 2001 that Kubrick sidetracked/delayed/etc.) _Farewell to the Master_ vs. _The Day the Earth Stood Still_ (though both are excellent) -- I'm sure if some arrogant fool filmmaker decides to try a remake, it will be a colossal disappointment! > I meant to bring the HGTG books with me to the US and went and left them > in England, grrr! Buy another copy. :> > It's been interesting watching American friends trying to make sense of > Doctor Who - hopefully the original BBC TV series will be shown at some > point as it's so vastly superior to the remake :-( *Which* remake? Haven't there been 4 or 5 "Doctors"? (Sorry, I'm not a big enough fan to track their names) The young blond guy, the curly haired guy, the black (?) haired "serious" guy and the "old man" (B&W episodes). Unfortunately, PBS here (se AZ, USA) doesn't carry *any* BBC sci-fi (Red Dwarf, Dr. Who, etc.) prefering, instead, to show re-re-re-re-runs of their own (ahem) "production"... "The Desert Speaks" :-/ From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Apr 15 11:59:26 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 09:59:26 -0700 Subject: Thanks to all: 8820 now working Message-ID: <200604150959260135.01C76116@192.168.42.129> My thanks to all who offered assistance on my issues with the 'tech special' Trak Systems 8820 GPS station clock. The unit was successfully repaired, and has been working for nearly a full week without any further signs of problems. For the curious: The problem turned out to be that one of the firmware EPROMs developed a broken internal bond wire on the output-enable lead. This caused the chip to appear completely blank to both the Unisite programmer and the Trak device. My contact at Trak was kind enough to send over image files to do a fresh set of EPROMs. The only other adjustment I found myself making was a fine-tune alignment on the 10MHz ovenized oscillator, to bring its center frequency back to a point where the reference circuitry could discipline it down to full accuracy. That was also accomplished without incident, and I now have a second Stratum-1 level clock and frequency standard for my lab. The moral of the story: EPROMs can fail too! Just not in the way we might expect. ;-) Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com Sat Apr 15 12:14:30 2006 From: Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com (Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 13:14:30 EDT Subject: Tandy Model 16b computers availabe Message-ID: <325.2271d35.317283f6@wmconnect.com> Hi there is a Tandy 16b, not a TRS-80 16b. and I would like the one you have with the 8" drive, when is a good time for me to come, weekends are best for me but I will work with you. My phone # 610.488.0212 after 6:00pm or weekends or I can call you if you want. Thanks, Al DePermentier From cctalk at catcorner.org Sat Apr 15 12:28:58 2006 From: cctalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 13:28:58 -0400 Subject: Tandy Model 16b computers availabe Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E303607E@MEOW.catcorner.org> Al: Weekends are best. Most Friday or Saturday evenings if you call ahead first. I'll send you contact info privately. What are you referring to as the Tandy 16b that does not have 8" drives? What kind of computer was it? Do you have any pictures or online references to one? Technically, Tandy/radio Shack did not swich to the "Tandy" name on the II/12/16/16b/6000 line until the 6000. I currently have at least 6 16b computers, and they are all labeled "TRS-80". I have 4 6000 computers and they are all labled "Tandy" However, they are essentially identical machines with a slightly faster clock speed in the 6000, and two PAL upgrades. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of > Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com > Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 1:15 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Tandy Model 16b computers availabe > > > Hi there is a Tandy 16b, not a TRS-80 16b. and I would like > the one you have > with the 8" drive, when is a good time for me to come, > weekends are best for > me but I will work with you. My phone # 610.488.0212 after > 6:00pm or weekends > or I can call you if you want. > > Thanks, Al DePermentier > From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Apr 15 12:28:14 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 10:28:14 -0700 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - A little more success/info In-Reply-To: <20060415130020.QTTZ20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060415130020.QTTZ20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <44412D2E.5080104@msm.umr.edu> Dave Dunfield wrote: >Hi Guys, > > Dave, On this variety of Pick, which was most compatable with the Microdata Reality version, and Picks own R83, there are what are system privilege levels SYS0, SYS1 are user account levels, and cannot access system commands, or edit the SYSTEM account dictionary, which contains the account definitions. SYS2 allows you to edit the system dictionary, and therefore change the system account privileges. This is what you need to find access to to change the passwords, which are also there. The restart of the account at login state is what you are seeing when you type end at the ! (bang) sign, which is the debugger. SYS2 is also required to do anything but G (go) or END (return to tcl, or restart at login), or OFF (logoff) at this debugger. this pick systems file system is what you could call two level. the system has one "system" dictionary, which is a databas file with account definition pointers, which point to dictionarys, which define the accounts. The accounts contain pointers to more data sets, which are the file definitions. this is the only number of heirachies in Pick of this variety. So your objective is to get into and modify the system dictionary and its control info without messing up your system completely. The game you have to play is to find the places where you can get into the debugger and carefully modify these items, since there are not usually any convenient places where you can do it with the normal editor. Having a list of the SYSPROG passwords from the original owner would be really plus. Also a sysgen tape would be very good if you mess the system up. These are going to be pretty rare, and most people who would have these systems now would not be able to copy it for you. That was not a thing most ordinary pick sites could do. Jim From josefcub at gmail.com Sat Apr 15 12:28:15 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 12:28:15 -0500 Subject: OT: Re: there is hope for tiny code! Message-ID: <9e2403920604151028l557347afkdacdb6d108723a39@mail.gmail.com> > *Which* remake? Haven't there been 4 or 5 "Doctors"? Nine, actually. The two before my time (I'm ashamed that I can't remember them!), John Pertwee, Tom Baker, Peter Davidson, Colin Baker, Sylvester McCoy, the one from the US movie, and now Christopher Eccleston. I was gifted with a wonderful PBS station in St. Louis, MO for my formative years. I've seen all of the episodes they played from John Pertwee to Sylvester McCoy, and a good smattering from the first two Doctors that were released here in the US... Of all of them, I miss John Pertwee the most. :( -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From eric at rothfus.com Sat Apr 15 12:38:00 2006 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 12:38:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Programming 2708 (1k x 8) In-Reply-To: <001401c66031$10e53a80$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> (rcini@optonline.net) References: <001401c66031$10e53a80$6501a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <1145066195@rothfus.com> Bailed me out again Rich, thanks! Turns out that I only 2732's laying around, but the same approach applies. Just FYI, I've found a vendor for 2716's and 2732's if you find yourself running short: www.futurlec.com Eric From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Apr 15 14:01:44 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 14:01:44 -0500 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - A little more success/info In-Reply-To: <44412D2E.5080104@msm.umr.edu> References: <20060415130020.QTTZ20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20060415180243.UEEZ20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Hi Jim, > On this variety of Pick, which was most compatable with the Microdata > Reality > version, and Picks own R83, there are what are system privilege levels > > SYS0, SYS1 are user account levels, and cannot access system commands, > or edit the SYSTEM account dictionary, which contains the account > definitions. > > SYS2 allows you to edit the system dictionary, and therefore change the > system account privileges. This is what you need to find access to to > change the passwords, which are also there. > > The restart of the account at login state is what you are seeing when you > type end at the ! (bang) sign, which is the debugger. SYS2 is also required > to do anything but G (go) or END (return to tcl, or restart at login), > or OFF > (logoff) at this debugger. Thanks for the info - So I assume that getting to it from any of the accounts I mentioned would be too low a privilege level to be useful - As noted in an earlier message, I can also get to this debugger by hitting BREAK during the system boot - is there any innocuous command I can try to determine if entering it thusly results gives me better access? > this pick systems file system is what you could call two level. the system > has one "system" dictionary, which is a databas file with account definition > pointers, which point to dictionarys, which define the accounts. The > accounts contain pointers to more data sets, which are the file definitions. > > this is the only number of heirachies in Pick of this variety. So your > objective is to get into and modify the system dictionary and its control > info without messing up your system completely. The game you have > to play is to find the places where you can get into the debugger and > carefully modify these items, since there are not usually any convenient > places where you can do it with the normal editor. I understand - I've learned from other reading that the password is "attribute 7" in the system file entries - I gather these are encrypted so that I can't just "see what it is". There are commands in the ADDS monitor (Pick not running at all) to read and write disk sectors - If I knew what to look for, I could write a program to read and dump disk sectors until it finds the SYSPROG entry in the system file ... Do you know how sophisticated the password encryption is? Is it the same on all Pick systems? Would it be feasable for someone with a running system to assign the password 'PASSWORD' for example, then give me the encrypted form which I could patch into the system file - or is it tied to other factors to prevent such simple replacement (I've read that Pick is not overly strong on security). If the encrypted password field is variable length, then we might need a "list of known encrypted passwords" of the various lengths, so it could be binary patched into the file sector... ? Just musing here ? > Having a list of the SYSPROG passwords from the original owner > would be really plus. Also a sysgen tape would be very good if > you mess the system up. These are going to be pretty rare, and > most people who would have these systems now would not be able > to copy it for you. That was not a thing most ordinary pick sites > could do. I've asked him to try and recall the password, and to let me know if he finds any tapes (sent him a photo so he will know what he is looking for), however I am not overly hopeful that this will bring results. Within the next day or two, I am going to try and make backups of the hard drive, both with the low-level monitors backup command, and the BACKUP user login which launches a backup menu. Some of the docs I have outline a procedure to create a sysgen tape from the running system - but I have to get access to SYSPROG first. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 15 13:48:19 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 12:48:19 -0600 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <44412591.8050109@DakotaCom.Net> References: <444003E8.6060402@srv.net> <444002DB.5010105@jetnet.ab.ca> <20060414135512.J92530@shell.lmi.net> <44411914.5070809@yahoo.co.uk> <44412591.8050109@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44413FF3.3080202@jetnet.ab.ca> Don Y wrote: > > *Which* remake? Haven't there been 4 or 5 "Doctors"? > (Sorry, I'm not a big enough fan to track their names) > The young blond guy, the curly haired guy, the black (?) > haired "serious" guy and the "old man" (B&W episodes). I never did see that remake, but the 5+ doctors I think have taken the series as far as it could go. > Unfortunately, PBS here (se AZ, USA) doesn't carry *any* > BBC sci-fi (Red Dwarf, Dr. Who, etc.) prefering, instead, > to show re-re-re-re-runs of their own (ahem) "production"... > "The Desert Speaks" :-/ Another wimpy PBS I see. When I did see Dr Who on PBS it was in movie format saturday nights. A full segement of the show rather than the daily 1/2 hour episodes. The UK had it far worse I heard -- no re-runs and you wait a full week for the new series. They have Dr Who DVD's but they are still hard to find. PS. Totaly off topic because a real TARDIS don't need no stinking computers. From fryers at gmail.com Sat Apr 15 13:54:03 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 19:54:03 +0100 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <44413FF3.3080202@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <444003E8.6060402@srv.net> <444002DB.5010105@jetnet.ab.ca> <20060414135512.J92530@shell.lmi.net> <44411914.5070809@yahoo.co.uk> <44412591.8050109@DakotaCom.Net> <44413FF3.3080202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: All, [...] On 4/15/06, woodelf wrote: > PS. Totaly off topic because a real TARDIS don't need no > stinking computers. Almost. I could use a TARDIS to store my still quite modest collection. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Apr 15 15:39:42 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 15:39:42 -0500 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Big success! Message-ID: <20060415194041.VCAA20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Ok - so this particular system wasn't all that secure! Armed with the info that Jim told me regarding 'END' being "return to the command prompt" (I had previously thought it ment "end debugger and continue where you left off") ... I did this: - Logged into the BACKUP account - got to the menu of backup commands. - Hit BREAK - Got me to the '!' debugger prompt. - Entered 'END' - Got me to the '>' TCL prompt - Tried LISTVERBS ... This list was much larger than the one I got from GAMES ... Nearly 300 commands. Many of them look "systemish" - I'm guessing at this point that BACKUP may be a privileged account - makes sense since it would need to access "everything" in order to back it up) - Noticed that one of the commands listed is: PASSWORD - Typed: PASSWORD System responded with 'Account name?' - Typed: SYSPROG System responded with 'New password?' :-) - Typed 'DAVE' And returned to the TCL prompt. .. Sure enough, I can now logon to SYSPROG with the password 'DAVE'. Yee - Haw! Next step is to see if I can backup the system... Some Q's: (Keep in mind that I have very little actual info on Pick system administration and commands - please be verbose): - What is the best way to backup the entire system so that it can be restored? - From what I have determined, this system can boot from tape ... Is there a way to make a backup that is "bootable" (ie: I can boot from the tape and restore the system). If not, how can I make a bootable tape that can be used to restore another backup. [As you might guess, what I am trying to accomplish is to insure that the system can restored in the event of a catastrophic failure (either hard-drive or me screwing something up beyond a functional state). - Do I need to "format" tapes before using them? - Is there a way to write to and verify (ie: test) the tape system? - Other suggestions/advice welcomed. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Apr 15 15:19:04 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 13:19:04 -0700 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Big success! In-Reply-To: <20060415194041.VCAA20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060415194041.VCAA20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <44415538.30409@msm.umr.edu> Dave Dunfield wrote: >Ok - so this particular system wasn't all that secure! > >Armed with the info that Jim told me regarding 'END' being "return >to the command prompt" (I had previously thought it ment "end >debugger and continue where you left off") ... I did this: > >- Logged into the BACKUP account - got to the menu of > backup commands. > >- Hit BREAK - Got me to the '!' debugger prompt. > >- Entered 'END' - Got me to the '>' TCL prompt > >- Tried LISTVERBS ... This list was much larger than > the one I got from GAMES ... Nearly 300 commands. > Many of them look "systemish" - I'm guessing at this > point that BACKUP may be a privileged account - > makes sense since it would need to access "everything" > in order to back it up) > >- Noticed that one of the commands listed is: PASSWORD > >- Typed: PASSWORD > System responded with 'Account name?' > >- Typed: SYSPROG > System responded with 'New password?' :-) > >- Typed 'DAVE' > And returned to the TCL prompt. > >.. Sure enough, I can now logon to SYSPROG with > the password 'DAVE'. > >Yee - Haw! > >Next step is to see if I can backup the system... > >Some Q's: > >(Keep in mind that I have very little actual info on > Pick system administration and commands - please > be verbose): > >- What is the best way to backup the entire system > so that it can be restored? > > > you will need a sysgen. there was a way on microdata systems to make one from a running system. on other pick system derivatives, because they were "proprietary" and wanted to stay that way, they never implemented that. Jay or a Mentor person may know more. In fairness to this forum, which has been patient with this, you should probably attempt to get a response from the usenet forum, comp.databases.pick. there are still original developers who may have been at adds still there from time to time, or lurking. If you wish to take this offline, I'll continue to help. What is here now is a good thing to have in the record for Adds, NCR, ADP, altos, alpha micro, and several more pick minis that people may pick up from scrap outs from small business. Not all ran some version of SCO, or cpm, much as people wished they did. >- From what I have determined, this system can boot > from tape ... Is there a way to make a backup that > is "bootable" (ie: I can boot from the tape and restore > the system). If not, how can I make a bootable tape > that can be used to restore another backup. > [As you might guess, what I am trying to accomplish > is to insure that the system can restored in the event > of a catastrophic failure (either hard-drive or me > screwing something up beyond a functional state). > > > above answer answers this. >- Do I need to "format" tapes before using them? > > > no, the tape usage was derived from 1/2 inch functionality, and treated the tape as a stream of records and file marks with two file marks being end of volume (or in the qic case the end of tape) >- Is there a way to write to and verify (ie: test) the > tape system? > > > there should be a FILE-SAVE proc on sysprog. now that you have sysprog open be much more careful. pick can eat your lunch with verbs like CLEAR-FILE and such, so dont play with them on sysprog, try to create a DAVE account and play there at SYS0. if the FILE-SAVE does not have a verify function or feature, I can supply a method to scan the tape for errors logically, with a few questions answered by you. basically you want to tell the system to do a selective restore from the tapes, and give it something it won't find. once this request to restore "fails" after scanning all the backup volumes, you will have read all the data and verified the save. >- Other suggestions/advice welcomed. > > > maybe offline now? >Dave > >-- >dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Apr 15 15:32:11 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 15:32:11 -0500 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Big success! In-Reply-To: <44415538.30409@msm.umr.edu> References: <20060415194041.VCAA20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <44415538.30409@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4441584B.5060002@mdrconsult.com> jim stephens wrote: > In fairness to this forum, > which has been patient with this, you should probably attempt to get a > response from the usenet forum, comp.databases.pick. there are still > original developers who may have been at adds still there from time to > time, or lurking. If you wish to take this offline, I'll continue to help. My 0.02USD: As a member of this forum who doesn't own a Pick system and never plans to own one, I have not been "patient with this thread", but extremely interested in it, and I hope Dave continues to report on his progress. I'm not sure what this mailing list's purpose *is*, if it's not exactly this sort of dialogue. Doc From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Apr 15 16:11:51 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 14:11:51 -0700 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Big success! In-Reply-To: <4441584B.5060002@mdrconsult.com> References: <20060415194041.VCAA20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <44415538.30409@msm.umr.edu> <4441584B.5060002@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: I am interested too, having had several pick systems go through my hands. Paxton Astoria, OR On 4/15/06, Doc Shipley wrote: > jim stephens wrote: > > > In fairness to this forum, > > which has been patient with this, you should probably attempt to get a > > response from the usenet forum, comp.databases.pick. there are still > > original developers who may have been at adds still there from time to > > time, or lurking. If you wish to take this offline, I'll continue to help. > > My 0.02USD: > > As a member of this forum who doesn't own a Pick system and never > plans to own one, I have not been "patient with this thread", but > extremely interested in it, and I hope Dave continues to report on his > progress. > > I'm not sure what this mailing list's purpose *is*, if it's not > exactly this sort of dialogue. > > > Doc > -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 15 14:58:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 20:58:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Programming 2708 (1k x 8) In-Reply-To: <1145033407@rothfus.com> from "Eric J. Rothfus" at Apr 14, 6 08:56:36 pm Message-ID: > > I was somewhat shocked to find out that my TopMax > EPROM programmer doesn't handle the vintage 2708 > 1k x 8 EPROM. A very interesting little EPROM > the 2708. It requires +5, -5, and 12v. >From what I remember, the 2708 is 'fun' to program for suitable values of fun. IIRC, some of the pins (and not just a steady Vpp pin) have to be raised to voltage abobe TTL during programming (I can't remember if you have to over-voltage the data lines, or if that's just for the 1702). And officially you can't program odd locations. You're supposed to go through the whole 1024 locations giving each one a short programming pulse, and repeat that times. You're not supposed to supply pulses to one location and then go on to the next. Last time I mentioned this (and it is in the data sheets), people here told me you could get away with progrramming individual locations, though. > Anyway, any advice out there for working with > these old little beasties? I'd like to first > read one, but eventually program them. Or Reading is not too hard. OK, you have to provide +12V and -5V supplies, but apart from that it reads like any other EPROM. > maybe I should program the 2716 and substitute > them (with appropriate bent-up pins)? Maybe, > too, I could read them after telling my TopMax > it is a 2716 and (again) bending up a few pins, > or maybe using a pulled-pin socket. That depends on how 'clever' your programmer is. If it does checks like making sure the supply current is reasonable, it may well fail. As regards programming them, there were many projects for 2708 programmers in the magazines almost 30 years ago. I'd read a few, and then decidn to kludge in 2716s or something :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 15 15:02:16 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 21:02:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <20060414194431.H6715@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 14, 6 07:48:35 pm Message-ID: > > > Smallest executable I ever generated was a whopping 7 bytes long -- after I'd > > seen the "CLS" command under DOS and wanted the same thing for my CP/M box... > > Used standard tools, too, and didn't have to do anything particularly > > tricky. > > the smallest executable is 0 bytes. > With several OS's, it will perfom a jump to 100h, and rerun whatever > executable is still in RAM. For example, it works under CP/M That trick is in the Epson PX8 user manual. It suggests creating a 0 byte COM file called GO.COM which can then be used to re-enter the last executed program. That Epson manual [1] is s strange mix of new user information and reasonably techncial stuff (like a list of the BIOS and BDOS calls, how to access the ADC by POKEing a machine code driver in from BASIC, and so on) [1] Not as strange as a Sharp manual I have (I think for the MZ700). It has the standard trivial introduction to BASIC followed by full schematics (even of the SMPSU board) and an assembly listing of the monitor ROM. Go figure. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 15 16:03:17 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 22:03:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: GTTY - A Glass TTY + Load paper tape software into a In-Reply-To: from "Wai-Sun Chia" at Apr 15, 6 12:46:57 pm Message-ID: > > On 4/15/06, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > 4. I'm a *NIX buff and haven't written DOS code for years, but I wrote > > GTTY as a DOS program because I know there are a lot of collectors > > that use "imagedisk", "Teledisk", "PUTR", etc. which only operate > > on DOS - and many folks who don't have *NIX systems. I've successfully > > tested GTTY on DOS 6.22, Windows 98 SE in a DOS window, and Windows XT > > [Home Edition] in a DOS window. > > Hey felllow *nix buff! :-) > Would a *nix (specifically Linux) port be in your vision in the near future? I've had the same question in reverse whenever I've released a program (e.g. the HP calculator LIF Untilies for Linux). People want an MS-DOS or Windows version. My reply is always the same. I've published the source code. If you want a version for another machine or OS, then write it yourself :-). I've written it for Linux becasue that's what I use. I believe the sourve for GTTY has been released too. It should therefore be possible to port it. I'm interested in knowing what was done with the reader-run loop from the PDP8? The DEC specification (deduced from the scheamtics, etc) is that when the PDP8 (or PDP11) wants to read a character from the paper tape, it passes a current through this look. This energises the reader run relay, the TTY reads a character and starts to serialise it. When the Start bit is received by the PDP8, the loop is opened again. The reader/TTY sends no more characeters until there's a current in the reader run loop again. Many UARTs seem to buffer at least one extra chracter and may well have problems with this. There's also a hardware problem in that AFAIK the DEC card never tried to provide an RS232 equivalent to this signal, and most, if not all, commercial currnet loop converters ignore it. I will have to look at the source to GTTY to see if this was simply ignored (I hope not, a heck of a lot of stuff would break...) or what. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 15 17:06:32 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 15:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <44407FEE.4000800@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20060414201659.020A07302A@linus.area51.conman.org> <200604142128.12232.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060414194431.H6715@shell.lmi.net> <200604142334.17286.rtellason@blazenet.net> <44407FEE.4000800@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20060415145534.A36191@shell.lmi.net> > >>the smallest executable is 0 bytes. > >>With several OS's, it will perfom a jump to 100h, and rerun whatever > >>executable is still in RAM. > > Now that you mention it I remember doing that one under CP/M too, called it > > "go". :-) On Fri, 14 Apr 2006, woodelf wrote: > Well your 0's must be different from my 0's . They must have hidden /'s > to make them larger or you take advantage with a bug/feature? with cp/m. just taking advantage of the program launching code in CP/M based OS's: don't load anything, then jump to what you didn't load. With some programs, it will permit resuming after an unwanted reboot or lockup. But in a multitasking system, you can't always be sure of getting the same segment. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 15 16:22:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 22:22:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Big success! In-Reply-To: <4441584B.5060002@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Apr 15, 6 03:32:11 pm Message-ID: > > jim stephens wrote: > > > In fairness to this forum, > > which has been patient with this, you should probably attempt to get a > > response from the usenet forum, comp.databases.pick. there are still > > original developers who may have been at adds still there from time to > > time, or lurking. If you wish to take this offline, I'll continue to help. > > My 0.02USD: > > As a member of this forum who doesn't own a Pick system and never > plans to own one, I have not been "patient with this thread", but > extremely interested in it, and I hope Dave continues to report on his > progress. I will second that. I know nothing about Pick. I don't own a machine that runs it, and have no immediate intention to get one. But I have been reading this thread with grad interest. You never know what useful tips you'll pick up by reading about other machines. Quite apart from the fact that I am, I guess, interested in all classic computers really. I would much rather on-topic stuff (and I believe this machines is over 10 years old, isn't a Wintel box, etc) stays on the list rather than be taken to private e-mail. > I'm not sure what this mailing list's purpose *is*, if it's not > exactly this sort of dialogue. Sure. If this list turns into a place where you can ask questions, but replies come by private e-mail to the questioner only, then I am leaving. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 15 17:28:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 15:28:57 -0700 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604151528570606.67EEDE33@10.0.0.252> On 4/15/2006 at 9:02 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >For example, it works under CP/M > >That trick is in the Epson PX8 user manual. It suggests creating a 0 byte >COM file called GO.COM which can then be used to re-enter the last >executed program. Well, yes and no. If the user program was large enough to clobber the CCP, the trick won't work, as the CCP is reloaded to get to a command prompt, thereby overlaying the original program. In addition, the program being restarted had better be re-entrant after termination; something not extremely common in the CP/M world. Does anyone know of a checkpoint/restart facility for CP/M programs? That is, hit a key or trigger an interrupt, and the CP/M program and any dependent context is swapped out to disk and the system returned to a command prompt? Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 15 17:37:40 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 15:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <44411914.5070809@yahoo.co.uk> References: <444003E8.6060402@srv.net> <444002DB.5010105@jetnet.ab.ca> <20060414135512.J92530@shell.lmi.net> <44411914.5070809@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20060415152859.V36191@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 15 Apr 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > That seems to be a *very* common thing. It's always sad to see the current > generation basing their experiences on remakes of things rather than seeing > the original(s) first. ... and when a remake is made, the original usually disappears forever. For example, I really liked the original version of "The Italian Job" > I meant to bring the HGTG books with me to the US and went and left them in > England, grrr! Most of Douglas Adams' writings are pretty readily available here: the five volumes of the trilogy, and the two Dirk Gently books. Some of his writings, such as "Meaning of Liff" and "Last Chance to See" are a little harder to find. If you need help finding them, just ask. Did the BBC special about hypertext that he and Ted Nelson worked on ever make it to air? Does anybody have a copy of it??? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 15 17:42:56 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 15:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Big success! In-Reply-To: <4441584B.5060002@mdrconsult.com> References: <20060415194041.VCAA20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <44415538.30409@msm.umr.edu> <4441584B.5060002@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20060415153944.E36191@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 15 Apr 2006, Doc Shipley wrote: > My 0.02USD: > As a member of this forum who doesn't own a Pick system and never > plans to own one, I have not been "patient with this thread", but > extremely interested in it, and I hope Dave continues to report on his > progress. > I'm not sure what this mailing list's purpose *is*, if it's not > exactly this sort of dialogue. It's been fun reading. I even [unsuccessfully] looked for my old Pick books. (prob'ly long gone) There was one from the "Pocket Guide" series called "The Pick Pocket Guide"! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 15 19:02:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 17:02:36 -0700 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Big success! In-Reply-To: <20060415153944.E36191@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060415194041.VCAA20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <44415538.30409@msm.umr.edu> <4441584B.5060002@mdrconsult.com> <20060415153944.E36191@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200604151702360996.68449BD8@10.0.0.252> On 4/15/2006 at 3:42 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >It's been fun reading. >I even [unsuccessfully] looked for my old Pick books. (prob'ly long gone) > >There was one from the "Pocket Guide" series called >"The Pick Pocket Guide"! Pick was one of our customers, so I've got some samples in the file, but they're all X86-type. Not this fancy ADDS stuff, nor even a Microdata Reality... Cheers, Chuck From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Apr 15 20:09:55 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 20:09:55 -0500 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Big success! In-Reply-To: <4441584B.5060002@mdrconsult.com> References: <44415538.30409@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20060416001055.VEBN8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > My 0.02USD: > > As a member of this forum who doesn't own a Pick system and never > plans to own one, I have not been "patient with this thread", but > extremely interested in it, and I hope Dave continues to report on his > progress. > > I'm not sure what this mailing list's purpose *is*, if it's not > exactly this sort of dialogue. Thanks Doc - and everyone else who has responded positively. I too am of this opinion - I find the threads where someone is actually working with a classic system to be most interesting, and in my mind more on-topic than many other threads which pass through unchallenged. I doubt this will go on that much longer, as I am getting "on my feet" with the machine now... But if anyone finds my reports and questions objectionable, let me know and I'll take it off-list. Took the tape drive out this evening and gave it a good cleaning ... It's an Archive Model 5945C, which is a QIC02 60M drive that uses DC600A tapes (I've got lots of tapes for it). A note in the operations manual says if you do a binary (image) backup of a drive much more than 30M you will need multiple tapes - which sounds about right... Anyway, popped in a DC600A and told the Diagnostic monitor to write a Full image of the drive - and it's happily whirr... whirr... whirr..ing away as I type - I have the feeling it will take a while.... The operations manual also documents a SYS-GEN command for building a SYSGEN tape from the running system, and also a file oriented system backup (instead of the Image) procedure ... If all goes well, I will perform these procedures in turn, and then make a second set of them all. Hints on how to get the system to read the entire tape without actually restoring anything to the hard-drive would be most welcome... This is proving to be quite an interesting system (discovered another password protected "higher level" monitor accessable from the diagnostic monitor earlier today - it lets you setup the system configuration block which is stored on the hard drive) - fortunately the password to this one is "fixed" and is mentioned in the operations manual. The documents I have are fairly thin, but they do have a lot of the information I have needed - I may scan them an post them with the machine when I put it on the web site. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From tpeters at mixcom.com Sat Apr 15 19:19:40 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 19:19:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Big success! In-Reply-To: <20060416001055.VEBN8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <44415538.30409@msm.umr.edu> <20060416001055.VEBN8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <31191.144.160.5.25.1145146780.squirrel@mail.athenet.net> I've never even seen or touched a Pick-based system, havnig started with RT-11 and CP/M, but even I find the discussion interesting. Isn't this what the CClist(s) [is|are] about? >> My 0.02USD: >> >> As a member of this forum who doesn't own a Pick system and never >> plans to own one, I have not been "patient with this thread", but >> extremely interested in it, and I hope Dave continues to report on his >> progress. >> >> I'm not sure what this mailing list's purpose *is*, if it's not >> exactly this sort of dialogue. > > Thanks Doc - and everyone else who has responded positively. > > I too am of this opinion - I find the threads where someone is actually > working with a classic system to be most interesting, and in my mind > more on-topic than many other threads which pass through From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Apr 15 19:53:36 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 17:53:36 -0700 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Big success! In-Reply-To: <20060416001055.VEBN8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <44415538.30409@msm.umr.edu> <20060416001055.VEBN8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <44419590.30705@msm.umr.edu> Dave Dunfield wrote: >> My 0.02USD: >> >> >> try doing a "POVF" and reporting what is there. Also type "WHAT" pick free space is called overflow, because when you create a database file in pick, you create a base block sized to have a number of hash buckets, and once these fill up the system adds in "overflow" to contain more data. this makes for a double edged sword. If you guess and size the file right, you end up with the first frame being read in and having your data. if you goof, the ssytem will search down the chains of frames till it finds it. as time goes on the files get worse and worse. restoreing from a backup is the only choice then. If you have a DC600, you may have 45mb or 60mb of data / tape. if you get the what info, we can figure out if you have written enough tapes to equal your disk size. another command to use is "WHERE" which will tell you about all the users logged on. Unless the adds is set up for modem control, you can just move your terminal from port to port and log in. I can give you some basic program stuff to try once you get a user account created to play on. Use CREATE-ACCOUNT if there is no indication of a menu with such utilities in it. Pick had no consistent menus to assist in these administrative tasks, but vendors such as Adds added them, and enhanced them. LISTU will show who is supposed to be logged on, whereas where is like a unix PS command. as another warning, there is a 3 or 4 stroke kill the system permanently at the ! sign, depending on your bad luck. when you get the ! you are getting a frame number before the period, and an offset in the frame after it. So 6.123 shows that the program pointer was in frame 6 (TERMIO) and at offset 123. If you happen to type a . then a valid hex number, it may store that directly into frame 6 at 123, yeilding a bad user experence. That is why I want you to get to a sys1 or sys0 Dave account asap. That little feature is disabled. I'm glad you broke into it, it would have been difficult but not impossible (danger of above) to break into the system otherwise. The system really is not that insecure, as there was and is the issue of how secure a software system can be without the encryption that is integrated into laptops today, if you have physical access to the machine. And the only place the exploit you pulled can happen is on the console, so if you secured the console and the connection and the machine, you were okay. and it was not feasible to be more secure as in encyrpting everything back then. when you get a Dave account ttry the following Hello world program CREATE-FILE MYBP ED MYBP HELLO (prompt is a .) I (insert) 001 PRINT "HELLO WORLD" 002 END 003 (numbers supplied by editor) .FI (file it) > BASIC MYBP HELLO **** [nnn] PROGRAM MYBP COMPILED (os some sort of rendition of the above) > RUN MYBP HELLO HELLO WORLD > if the above works, you are cooking. of course the > is the TCL prompt. I used MYBP because frequently one shared a BP (basic program) file with several accounts, and used subroutines from it on a local account. I am glad all of you seem to be okay with this, I was offering to shut up if not. Sounds like we need to get a pick machine up somewhere for all to play on :-) Jim From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Apr 15 20:20:13 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 21:20:13 -0400 Subject: IBM 3420 questions In-Reply-To: <200604141557.47803.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <22132.88.211.153.27.1145039747.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <200604141550.14982.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200604141557.47803.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <44419BCD.7050704@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>> Can someone recommend me a freighter who can pickup a cabinet >>> and do all the necessary work including putting in on a pallet, >>> wrapping it in plastic etc and ship it? >>> Location is Westmont (IL) and is destined for The Netherlands. >> So, now that I see others might be interested in this stuff. >> >> Does anyone know how big (dimensions, weight) an IBM 3420, and a 3083 >> are? > > Arg. That should be 3803. Tape controller, not System/370 cpu... Ah. Not that big. A single IBM rack. Peace... Sridhar From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Apr 15 20:35:44 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 18:35:44 -0700 Subject: GTTY - A Glass TTY + Load paper tape software into a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604151835.44630.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Saturday 15 April 2006 14:03, Tony Duell wrote: > > On 4/15/06, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > > 4. I'm a *NIX buff and haven't written DOS code for years, but I wrote > > > GTTY as a DOS program because I know there are a lot of collectors > > > that use "imagedisk", "Teledisk", "PUTR", etc. which only operate > > > on DOS - and many folks who don't have *NIX systems. I've > > > successfully tested GTTY on DOS 6.22, Windows 98 SE in a DOS window, > > > and Windows XT [Home Edition] in a DOS window. > > > > Hey felllow *nix buff! :-) > > Would a *nix (specifically Linux) port be in your vision in the near > > future? > > I've had the same question in reverse whenever I've released a program > (e.g. the HP calculator LIF Untilies for Linux). People want an MS-DOS or > Windows version. My reply is always the same. I've published the source > code. If you want a version for another machine or OS, then write it > yourself :-). I've written it for Linux becasue that's what I use. > > I believe the sourve for GTTY has been released too. It should therefore > be possible to port it. The source is released. I'll be pleased if someone wants to take the "C" source and port it to a *NIX system! However, I suggest they hold off for a bit (see below). > I'm interested in knowing what was done with the reader-run loop from the > PDP8? The DEC specification (deduced from the scheamtics, etc) is that > when the PDP8 (or PDP11) wants to read a character from the paper tape, > it passes a current through this look. This energises the reader run > relay, the TTY reads a character and starts to serialise it. When the > Start bit is received by the PDP8, the loop is opened again. The > reader/TTY sends no more characeters until there's a current in the > reader run loop again. > > Many UARTs seem to buffer at least one extra chracter and may well have > problems with this. There's also a hardware problem in that AFAIK the DEC > card never tried to provide an RS232 equivalent to this signal, and most, > if not all, commercial currnet loop converters ignore it. The COM port is buffered by using a fairly large buffer with interrupt control, etc. That's done in the COM library code. [The source for the library is available with the commercial release of the Dave's Compiler ($25). Dave's compiler and library is designed for use in embedded systems - so it tends to handle things "close to the metal" well.] > I will have to look at the source to GTTY to see if this was simply > ignored (I hope not, a heck of a lot of stuff would break...) or what. I designed into the GTTY (with a few bits still on paper) the use of CTS as a a means of synch. with the Reader FF. I want to test it with different TTY modules - including the board "patches" necessary for making this work in an RS-232/EIA environment. Be a bit patient, and I hope to get it done in the not too distant future... Remember the current release of GTTY is a 0.x release. The "CTS" version will start with 1.0 ;-) Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Apr 15 20:39:37 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 21:39:37 -0400 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: References: <444003E8.6060402@srv.net> <444002DB.5010105@jetnet.ab.ca> <20060414135512.J92530@shell.lmi.net> <44411914.5070809@yahoo.co.uk> <44412591.8050109@DakotaCom.Net> <44413FF3.3080202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4441A059.30704@gmail.com> Simon Fryer wrote: > All, > > [...] > > On 4/15/06, woodelf wrote: > >> PS. Totaly off topic because a real TARDIS don't need no >> stinking computers. > > Almost. I could use a TARDIS to store my still quite modest collection. I doubt mine would fit even in a TARDIS. Peace... Sridhar From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sat Apr 15 20:58:39 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C. H. Dickman) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 21:58:39 -0400 Subject: DECwriter I LA180 to the dumpster Message-ID: <4441A4CF.2060208@nktelco.net> Unless somebody can convince me why it is a bad idea or is willing to pick it up (in west central Ohio, USA), one functional LA180 is going to be scrapped on Thursday (local trash pickup day). I will probably save the base and figure out if it is possible to put an ASR33 on top of it, but the rest will go... ... except maybe the head servo motor, some gears, pulleys and belts. chd From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Apr 15 21:42:24 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 19:42:24 -0700 Subject: Old IBM PC/XT stuff available (free) In-Reply-To: <200604140141.k3E1fEiG070280@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604140141.k3E1fEiG070280@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4441AF10.2030208@sbcglobal.net> I thought I'd make this stuff available before I send it off the the recyclers. I really don't want to ship it, it's just not worth the time, but I can deliver to the Silicon Valley area or it can be picked up at my home in Santa Cruz. Three IBM 5154 EGA type color monitors. Three IBM 5151 Monochrome monitors. PS2-30 with keyboard. Three XT chassis missing the hard and floppy drives but complete otherwise (motherboard, power supply, some I/O cards etc.) Packard Bell XT type system with color monitor and keyboard. This boots up and I can do a directory on the hard disk. I did not try out the other stuff but it all came from the Dovebid Telogy auction and so far everything I did test worked. There may be more monitors and another system or two after I get them all sorted out. If anyone wants any of it, please let me know soon, I really need the space! Bob From spc at conman.org Sat Apr 15 21:46:37 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 22:46:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060414194302.056506d0@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Apr 14, 2006 07:56:29 PM Message-ID: <20060416024637.00E9A7302A@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Roger Merchberger once stated: > > Rumor has it that Richard may have mentioned these words: > >OK, in some threads I've seen the curmudgeons shake their head back > >and forth and bemoan how people don't write finely tuned hand assembly > >code anymore. > > Drivewire for the Tandy CoCo1/2/3 (http://www.cloud9tech.com.) use > hand-tuned assembly for the serial routines on the bit-banger (one bit of a > PIA, toggled by software) port - they acheive 38400bps on a .89Mhz 6809 > (CoCo1/2), and 57600 on a 1.78Mhz 6809 (CoCo3). I've booted NitrOS9 on my > machine, and it's pretty durned quick. Not *quite* as fast as the floppy > drive (and certainly not as fast as the CF memory card I have on the IDE > bus ;-) but awfully handy! (Oh, and check out the SuperBoard project...) Really? I did the math once and found that 19200 was about the theoretical maximum one could get on a Coco 1/2---but I suppose if you unrolled the loop to read a byte you could, maybe, get a bit faster at the expense of space ... hmm ... as I'm doing it, yes, I think it is possible by unrolling the loops, but the timing is *very* tight. -spc (And certainly not usable for generalized 38400 speed communications it seems like ... ) From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Apr 15 21:47:51 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 19:47:51 -0700 Subject: IBM 3420 size In-Reply-To: <200604151701.k3FH0tq8094628@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604151701.k3FH0tq8094628@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4441B057.5070800@sbcglobal.net> I sent this before but with a useless subject title, sorry about that. <>I measured the ones I have in my garage. The 3420 is 30" wide x 30" deep x 66.5" tall <> <> including the casters and control panel on top. The 3803 is 30" wide x <>28" deep x 60" tall. The carrier estimated weight for both of mine was 1150 pounds. Bob > > From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Apr 15 22:25:31 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 20:25:31 -0700 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <20060416024637.00E9A7302A@linus.area51.conman.org> References: <20060416024637.00E9A7302A@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: <4441B92B.5060509@DakotaCom.Net> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Roger Merchberger once stated: >> Rumor has it that Richard may have mentioned these words: >>> OK, in some threads I've seen the curmudgeons shake their head back >>> and forth and bemoan how people don't write finely tuned hand assembly >>> code anymore. >> Drivewire for the Tandy CoCo1/2/3 (http://www.cloud9tech.com.) use >> hand-tuned assembly for the serial routines on the bit-banger (one bit of a >> PIA, toggled by software) port - they acheive 38400bps on a .89Mhz 6809 >> (CoCo1/2), and 57600 on a 1.78Mhz 6809 (CoCo3). I've booted NitrOS9 on my >> machine, and it's pretty durned quick. Not *quite* as fast as the floppy >> drive (and certainly not as fast as the CF memory card I have on the IDE >> bus ;-) but awfully handy! (Oh, and check out the SuperBoard project...) > > Really? I did the math once and found that 19200 was about the > theoretical maximum one could get on a Coco 1/2---but I suppose if you > unrolled the loop to read a byte you could, maybe, get a bit faster at the > expense of space ... hmm ... as I'm doing it, yes, I think it is possible by > unrolling the loops, but the timing is *very* tight. The speech in vintage (1980-ish) Williams arcade pieces takes the same approach -- using the 6809's accumulator to shift the bits out to the CVSD. As a result, nothing gets done while the sound card is speaking -- and the quality of the speech suffers (all to save a 12c shift register :< ) --don From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Apr 15 20:19:03 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 21:19:03 -0400 Subject: IBM 3420 questions In-Reply-To: <200604141550.14982.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <22132.88.211.153.27.1145039747.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <200604141550.14982.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <44419B87.5050500@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 14 April 2006 14:35, Edward wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Can someone recommend me a freighter who can pickup a cabinet >> and do all the necessary work including putting in on a pallet, >> wrapping it in plastic etc and ship it? >> Location is Westmont (IL) and is destined for The Netherlands. > > So, now that I see others might be interested in this stuff. > > Does anyone know how big (dimensions, weight) an IBM 3420, and a 3083 > are? A 3420 isn't big at all. Less than a full IBM-rack. A 3083, on the other hand can get quite large in certain configurations. I believe the minimum configuration is four frames, and the maximum is rooms and rooms full of racks. Peace... Sridhar From geneb at simpits.com Sun Apr 16 01:56:13 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 23:56:13 -0700 Subject: Ampro Littleboard... In-Reply-To: <44400851.7010907@msm.umr.edu> References: <002701c65d93$05186ba0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <11c909eb0604111250l7b3b4186kc74c246a7746a261@mail.gmail.com> <44400851.7010907@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4441EA8D.4070501@simpits.com> I've got an Ampro Littleboard that I'd like to be able to use a hard drive with. It's my understanding that while it's got a SCSI host interface, it needs a controller as well. Does anyone out there know where I could find a controller for this? The computer is the Z-80 version and it's in the little "Series 100" bookshelf case. tnx. g. From dpeschel at eskimo.com Fri Apr 14 12:01:54 2006 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 10:01:54 -0700 Subject: Anyone driving from Boston to VCF East, or from there to the airport? Message-ID: <20060414100154.A12364@eskimo.com> Hi everyone, I've scheduled an eye checkup in Boston to match the date of VCF East, but I could use a ride from Boston. And I need to get to an airport (probably Newark, I haven't gotten a ticket yet so I have a choice) afterward. Please let me know if either of those match your plans. -- Derek From ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU Fri Apr 14 15:05:53 2006 From: ISC277 at CLCILLINOIS.EDU (Wolfe, Julian ) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:05:53 -0500 Subject: WTB: UNIBUS pdp11 handbook Message-ID: Hi everyone, A simple request: does anyone have a UNIBUS pdp11 handbook that covers 11/34a from between 1979-82 they'd be willing to part with? It's the only handbook I need and don't have. Thanks! Julian From heronflyinghigh at btinternet.com Fri Apr 14 16:45:31 2006 From: heronflyinghigh at btinternet.com (graeme) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 22:45:31 +0100 Subject: MINC 11 Message-ID: <000201c6600c$c2d28b50$0202a8c0@graeme94r4upt6> Hi there, I have a minc11 which I must move on due to space restraints it is in excellent condition complete with trolley stand and rx02 drives. I am moving into smaller things and would be interested maybe in a swap. I am particularly interested in Ohio Scientific and have quite a large collection. Any hardware, software or documentation would be most acceptable. Sorry guys I am in the UK so only available there!!!! Regards Graeme -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.0/304 - Release Date: 07/04/2006 From jclang at notms.net Fri Apr 14 18:09:33 2006 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 19:09:33 -0400 Subject: LSI-11/2 CPU with tracks cut? In-Reply-To: References: <4432300A.4060608@thebackend.de> Message-ID: <06041419093300.15434@bell> On Tuesday 04 April 2006 05:47, you wrote: > On Tue, 4 Apr 2006, [ISO-8859-15] Sebastian Br?ckner wrote: > > KD11-HA M7270 LSI-11/2 CPU > > (16-bit addressing only, and use of BC1,BD1, > > BE1,BF1 for purposes other than BDAL18-21) > > What did the M7270 use these pins for? I didn't find any manuals or > > schematics for the this CPU yet, only for the LSI-11. Could someone point > > me into the right direction? > > According to the "microcomputer processor handbook" (edition 1979-80) the > backplane signal names for BC1 to BH1 are called SSPARE4 to SSPARE8 > (special spare) and are *not* bussed. The KD11-HA signal names on these > pins are: > BC1 SCLK3H > BD1 SWMIB18H > BE1 SWMIB19H > BF1 SWMIB20H > BH1 SWMIB21H > > Christian The signals control several flip-flops on the M7270 as follows: BC1 phase 3 clock, active high - enable for the decoding of the other bits BH1 high to enable decoding BD1 BE1 BF1 000 not used 001 clear init FF 010 bus timeout FF clear 011 not used 100 init FF set 101 set FDIN FF 110 power fail FF clear 111 event FF clear Since the 4 lines have a large number ( 10 ) of unused combinations, and are driven directly by the microcode, they could have any number of uses if you're runing writable control store. Can an M7270 do that? If you're running the standard MCROMS they don't have much value outside the CPU. joe lang From yzoer at mac.com Sat Apr 15 18:43:24 2006 From: yzoer at mac.com (Yvo Zoer) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 16:43:24 -0700 Subject: cool terminal manuals Message-ID: Alright, This is a longshot, but you wouldn't happen to have a Micro-Term Ergo 2000 Terminal manual laying around, would you? Cheers, Yvo From heronflyinghigh at btinternet.com Sun Apr 16 02:30:41 2006 From: heronflyinghigh at btinternet.com (graeme) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 08:30:41 +0100 Subject: Recall: MINC 11 Message-ID: graeme would like to recall the message, "MINC 11". From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Apr 16 03:07:25 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 09:07:25 +0100 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Big success! In-Reply-To: <44419590.30705@msm.umr.edu> References: <44415538.30409@msm.umr.edu> <20060416001055.VEBN8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <44419590.30705@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: In message <44419590.30705 at msm.umr.edu> jim stephens wrote: > I am glad all of you seem to be okay with this, I was offering to shut up > if not. Sounds like we need to get a pick machine up somewhere for all > to play on :-) Now that would be neat. For some odd reason, I like playing around with different OSes, just for the hell of it. What I'd really like to do (when I get a round tuit) is write a full OS for my 6502 board, or maybe port OS/A65 to it. That's the problem with homebrew computers - you get the thing built, get BASIC running on it, then you end up stuck for things to do with it. Dave - don't take this off list, it's interesting reading about how you've taken a machine with an unknown password, then managed to override the superuser password. This sort of knowledge is very handy for preservation of old machines - IMHO there's not much you can do from a demonstration and preservation standpoint without access to the superuser account on a system (assuming it's a multiuser system that is). Like Doc said - if this sort of thing (talk of preservation of classic computers) isn't what the cc{talk,tech} lists are for, then what are they for? -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Sun Apr 16 06:08:13 2006 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 12:08:13 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/34 available in UK (Essex) Message-ID: <000101c66146$0daec3c0$655b2c0a@w2kdell> I'm having reluctantly to admit to myself that I am not going to find the time to do something with the PDP 11/34 and pair of RL01 drives that have been sitting in my garage for far too long (18 months). There are also about a dozen disk packs that supposedly have various versions of RT, RSX, and Coherent on them and some manuals. If you are interested in making a reasonable+ offer for part or all of this please email me. In theory this is a collection only* offer but I may be able to deliver within, say 50, miles for the cost of the petrol at about 25 mpg. Longer deliveries may be possible depending on location. * Location is within 8 miles of Southend-on-Sea in Essex. + On eBay I believe I could get well over ?100, but probably not as much as ?200. Possibly even better if I split the manuals off and sold them separately. I have never powered any part of this on - the disk packs and drives should certainly be properly cleaned before use and the precautions repeatedly emphasised on this list should be taken before powering-on. The arm of the breaker switch on the back of the processor has broken so this will probably need replacing. I have some other items of DEC and SUN (Sparc 5/10/20, Ultra 30) equipment and a desktop HP Unix workstation that may be of interest. Andy From david_comley at yahoo.com Sun Apr 16 06:40:52 2006 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 04:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dayton Hamvention, May 19 - May 21 In-Reply-To: <4440758F.3B50C232@rain.org> Message-ID: <20060416114052.69486.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'll be there and I will certainly stop by and say hello so I can put a face to the name. I plan to arrive Thursday, stay Friday and drive home Saturday night. BTW Marvin, did that Ross SPARC module ever show up ? You were going to try to find it for me... -Dave KB3HOW --- Marvin Johnston wrote: > > At this point, I don't know what the space numbers > are, but I'll post them as > soon as I know. If we have enough interest, maybe we > can set up a dinner either > Friday or Saturday night. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Sun Apr 16 10:51:19 2006 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 16:51:19 +0100 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) Message-ID: <1145202679.9628.8.camel@ljw.me.uk> I've got a hex dump here of an Assembler/Text Editor for the 8080, called (IIRC) ATE. It's what I used on my first computer (8080 S100 8k + KC tape). It's about 4k, so I had 4k for source + object, or it could work as a 2-pass assembler reading the source off tape. Does anyone know about this? Is it of interest to anyone? I could either type it in, or scan the listing for someone else :-) The code would need patching for console & tape I/O, and I don't have any documentation on how to do this, or even how to use it, but it can't be too difficult. Forgive me, it's been almost 30 years! LJW I've been quiet lately, see http://www.ljw.me.uk/porsche for an idea why :-( -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sun Apr 16 11:03:06 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 09:03:06 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <1145202679.9628.8.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <1145202679.9628.8.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <44426ABA.8070408@DakotaCom.Net> Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > I've got a hex dump here of an Assembler/Text Editor for the 8080, > called (IIRC) ATE. It's what I used on my first computer (8080 S100 8k > + KC tape). It's about 4k, so I had 4k for source + object, or it could > work as a 2-pass assembler reading the source off tape. > > Does anyone know about this? Is it of interest to anyone? I could > either type it in, or scan the listing for someone else :-) The code > would need patching for console & tape I/O, and I don't have any > documentation on how to do this, or even how to use it, but it can't be > too difficult. Forgive me, it's been almost 30 years! I have the sources for the original tools that came with ISIS-II someplace -- if there's interest. If all you have is a hex dump, I can disassemble it for you to give you a better place from which to start patching. --don From dmabry at mich.com Sun Apr 16 11:14:00 2006 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 12:14:00 -0400 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <44426ABA.8070408@DakotaCom.Net> References: <1145202679.9628.8.camel@ljw.me.uk> <44426ABA.8070408@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <44426D48.7040500@mich.com> Don Y wrote: > > I have the sources for the original tools that came with > ISIS-II someplace -- if there's interest. > > If all you have is a hex dump, I can disassemble it for you > to give you a better place from which to start patching. > > --don > I would definately be interested in the ISIS-II cusps sources. Do you have it in a form that can be e-mailed? If it is on an ISIS-II compatible medium I could convert it to something "modern" if desired. Thanks, Dave From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sun Apr 16 11:28:29 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 09:28:29 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <44426D48.7040500@mich.com> References: <1145202679.9628.8.camel@ljw.me.uk> <44426ABA.8070408@DakotaCom.Net> <44426D48.7040500@mich.com> Message-ID: <444270AD.4030503@DakotaCom.Net> Dave Mabry wrote: > Don Y wrote: > >> >> I have the sources for the original tools that came with >> ISIS-II someplace -- if there's interest. >> >> If all you have is a hex dump, I can disassemble it for you >> to give you a better place from which to start patching. >> >> --don >> > I would definately be interested in the ISIS-II cusps sources. Do you > have it in a form that can be e-mailed? If it is on an ISIS-II > compatible medium I could convert it to something "modern" if desired. From what I recall, some tattered 8.5x11 sheets of paper :-( (Hey, it's ~30 years old... bits of paper don't fare well :< ) I'll start a search but it may take a while. It could be in several different places (some of which are cross country). --don From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun Apr 16 11:56:32 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 12:56:32 -0400 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Big success! In-Reply-To: References: <44415538.30409@msm.umr.edu> <44419590.30705@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200604161256.32530.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 16 April 2006 04:07 am, Philip Pemberton wrote: > What I'd really like to do (when I get a round tuit) is write a full OS for > my 6502 board, or maybe port OS/A65 to it. What's OS/A65? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 16 12:15:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 10:15:36 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <1145202679.9628.8.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <1145202679.9628.8.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <200604161015360837.6BF65927@10.0.0.252> On 4/16/2006 at 4:51 PM Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: >Does anyone know about this? Is it of interest to anyone? I could >either type it in, or scan the listing for someone else :-) The code >would need patching for console & tape I/O, and I don't have any >documentation on how to do this, or even how to use it, but it can't be >too difficult. Forgive me, it's been almost 30 years! I used something like that before I had the luxury of a diskette drive on the MITS Altair. But I don't recall a 2-pass mode from paper tape, just a BASIC-type editor that read the source into memory (or created it); each statement had a line number. Assembly in place--i.e. no intermediate binary output was the normal mode. It wasn't a MITS-original product, but i think I got it from a friend who had an IMSAI 8080. It may have even come from something like a Processor tech box. When I got my first disk, I dropped it like a hot potato. Cheers, Chuck From roosmcd at dds.nl Sun Apr 16 12:40:04 2006 From: roosmcd at dds.nl (roosmcd at dds.nl) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 19:40:04 +0200 Subject: Ancient led message display with R6502 In-Reply-To: <200604161700.k3GH04ir006178@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604161700.k3GH04ir006178@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1145209204.4442817462bb7@webmail.dds.nl> Anybody ever seen one of these before? http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/1102/041500219xn.jpg http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2051/041500256wc.jpg http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/6451/041500242dq.jpg This is a LED message display controlled by a R6502-11 microcontroller board. The keyboard is from a Cosmac ELF, modified to run on power supplied from the uC board. Connectors are a bit flakey, seems to work but for the input. Unfortunately it's an ASCII keyboard connection, while I was hoping for it to be just rs232. Unfortunately this makes it a bit difficult to use for my application, unless I replace the board with a more modern microcontroller. Still doubting what to do about that a bit. greetings, Michiel From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Apr 16 12:53:16 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 18:53:16 +0100 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Big success! In-Reply-To: <200604161256.32530.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <44415538.30409@msm.umr.edu> <44419590.30705@msm.umr.edu> <200604161256.32530.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: In message <200604161256.32530.rtellason at blazenet.net> "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > What's OS/A65? A multitasking, multithreading OS for 6502 based systems: -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 16 12:58:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 10:58:45 -0700 Subject: Programming 2708 (1k x 8) In-Reply-To: <1145033407@rothfus.com> References: <1145033407@rothfus.com> Message-ID: <200604161058450735.6C1DD9F0@10.0.0.252> On 4/14/2006 at 8:56 PM Eric J. Rothfus wrote: >I was somewhat shocked to find out that my TopMax >EPROM programmer doesn't handle the vintage 2708 >1k x 8 EPROM. A very interesting little EPROM >the 2708. It requires +5, -5, and 12v. I have a programmer that has the ability to program 2708s, if you're interested in having the job done for you. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun Apr 16 13:20:07 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:20:07 -0400 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Big success! In-Reply-To: References: <44415538.30409@msm.umr.edu> <200604161256.32530.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200604161420.07938.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 16 April 2006 01:53 pm, Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message <200604161256.32530.rtellason at blazenet.net> > > "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > > What's OS/A65? > > A multitasking, multithreading OS for 6502 based systems: > Nifty! :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 16 12:59:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 18:59:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <200604151528570606.67EEDE33@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 15, 6 03:28:57 pm Message-ID: > >That trick is in the Epson PX8 user manual. It suggests creating a 0 byte > >COM file called GO.COM which can then be used to re-enter the last > >executed program. > > Well, yes and no. If the user program was large enough to clobber the CCP, > the trick won't work, as the CCP is reloaded to get to a command prompt, > thereby overlaying the original program. In addition, the program being > restarted had better be re-entrant after termination; something not > extremely common in the CP/M world. Ture enough, although presumably it worked often enough for Epson to think it useful to put in the manuals. But I remmber with affection 'Control-F J103' :-) An explanation : The first CP/M machine I used was a thing called an RML 380Z. It had a very nice software 'front panel' (machine code monitor, memory editor, etc) in ROM that you could enter by typing Control-F at just about any point. The BASIC on that machine (presumably a Microsoft derrivative) had a cold start entry point (cleared your program, etc) at 100h (not suprisingly) but also a warm-start (preserved the program) at 103 (presumable locations 100,101,102 contained a JP instruction, but I don't really remember). So, provided the TPA had not been clobbered, yuu could get back to BASIC by doing Control F (to enter the monitor) followed by J103 (to jump to the warm start point). -tony From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Apr 16 14:58:52 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:58:52 -0500 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Big success! In-Reply-To: <44419590.30705@msm.umr.edu> References: <20060416001055.VEBN8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20060416185954.GVZZ8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > try doing a "POVF" and reporting what is there. Also type "WHAT" POVF gives me: >POVF 4585- 4585 : 1 46976- 46980 : 5 46982- 46990 : 9 46994- 46999 : 6 47040- 47077 : 38 47084- 47088 : 5 -- Many more lines deleted for brevity - I can send off-list if useful -- 51330- 51669 : 340 51671- 52227 : 557 52229- 52340 : 112 52342- 52351 : 10 52353- 74623 : 22271 ADDITIONAL FRAMES : 826 TOTAL NUMBER OF AVAILABLE FRAMES : 26139 WHAT gives me: >WHAT 00:04:08 23 SEP 1988 MAXUSERS [8] CURRENT # USERS [1] CORE LINES PROCESSES PCB0 WSSTART WSSIZE SYSBASE/MODULO MAXFID OVRFLW 512K 8 9 768 1056 127 4485 27 74623 26139 GROUP AND EXECUTION LOCKS (LOCK-PROCESS) *000 000300 FF20 121.000 121.1BC 166.586 005 0003A0 BF00 170.06A 170.0B4 007 0003E0 BF00 170.06A 170.0B4 008 000400 BF00 170.06A 170.13C THE SPOOLER IS INACTIVE. PRINTER # 0 IS SERIAL AND INACTIVE. THE PRINTER IS RUNNING ON PROCESS 7. ASSIGNED OUTPUT QUEUES: 0. THE NUMBER OF INTER-JOB PAGES TO EJECT IS 0. PRINTER # 1 IS SERIAL AND INACTIVE. THE PRINTER IS RUNNING ON PROCESS 5. ASSIGNED OUTPUT QUEUES: 1. THE NUMBER OF INTER-JOB PAGES TO EJECT IS 0. Thanks for the other warnings and hints... > The system really is not that insecure, as there was and is the > issue of how secure a software system can be without the > encryption that is integrated into laptops today, if you have > physical access to the machine. And the only place the > exploit you pulled can happen is on the console, so if you > secured the console and the connection and the machine, > you were okay. and it was not feasible to be more secure > as in encyrpting everything back then. Agreed - now that I'm in to it, I've found a "whole bunch" of accounts which have no passwords and can get to a shell. Several of them with "high privilege.... But if these acounts were either removed or properly password protected, they would not present the gaping hole in security that I exploited. Btw, Why could this exploit not happen on another port or the dial-in line ... Are the various system accounts (BACKUP etc.) not accessable from all the ports (I tried from PORT-1 and it worked) - Does the BREAK interrupt not work from a dial-up line? -- Just curious as to why this "hole" would not be accessable from a more remote terminal. > when you get a Dave account try the following Hello > world program > > CREATE-FILE MYBP > > ED MYBP HELLO > if the above works, you are cooking. Well... I used CREATE-ACCOUNT to create a DAVE account - It asked me 4-5 rather terse/cryptic questions to which I accepted the defaults. This created an account which I could log in to, however CREATE-FILE advises me that I do not have sufficent privilege to use this command! So I decided to try from the GAMES account since it lets me get to a TCL prompt, and does not appear to be a privileged account. 'CREATE-FILE MYBP' results in this error message: >CREATE-FILE MYBP [416] RANGE ERROR IN MODULO PARAMETER. > Looks like it wants a parameter of some kind - tried 'CREATE-FILE MYBP 10' and got the same result, and don't want to try too much else without knowing what I'm actually doing - going to see if I can pickup a PICK book or docs .... But if you can suggest resolutions to the above (ie: How to create an account where you can make files, and how to actually create the file)... that would be helpful, as I agree that a "safe" account for experimentation would be a good idea. On the more positive side, I believe I have successfully created two SYSGEN tapes - they can be booted (and it works), but I have not tried performing an actual restore from them ... > I am glad all of you seem to be okay with this, I was offering to shut up > if not. Sounds like we need to get a pick machine up somewhere for all > to play on :-) We are supposed to be getting high-speed wireless access in my area within the next month or two ... If it works reliably (big if), I am hoping to get a server set up here eventually which I can use to make various classic systems available for on-line demos.. The Mentor would be a good candidate - but given your warnings about three-character death incantations, I don't know that I would make the privileged users generally available... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 16 14:04:00 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:04:00 -0600 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <200604161015360837.6BF65927@10.0.0.252> References: <1145202679.9628.8.camel@ljw.me.uk> <200604161015360837.6BF65927@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44429520.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>Does anyone know about this? Is it of interest to anyone? I could >>either type it in, or scan the listing for someone else :-) The code >>would need patching for console & tape I/O, and I don't have any >>documentation on how to do this, or even how to use it, but it can't be >>too difficult. Forgive me, it's been almost 30 years! > I used something like that before I had the luxury of a diskette drive on > the MITS Altair. But I don't recall a 2-pass mode from paper tape, just a > BASIC-type editor that read the source into memory (or created it); each > statement had a line number. Assembly in place--i.e. no intermediate > binary output was the normal mode. I remember a 8080 editor/assembler book with a 4k hex/octal listing. It was so primitive that instructions longer than 1 byte, had to be assembled as 2 and 3 byte instructions. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 16 15:31:35 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:31:35 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <44429520.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1145202679.9628.8.camel@ljw.me.uk> <200604161015360837.6BF65927@10.0.0.252> <44429520.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200604161331350572.6CA9C541@10.0.0.252> On 4/16/2006 at 1:04 PM woodelf wrote: >I remember a 8080 editor/assembler book with a 4k hex/octal listing. >It was so primitive that instructions longer than 1 byte, had to be >assembled as 2 and 3 byte instructions. Do you want to rephrase that? I do recall a simple assembler that did not implement alpha constant strings longer than 2 bytes (as a DW). To code a long string you had to do something like this: DW "EH" DW "LL" DW " O" DW "OW" DW "LR" DW " D" Very tedious! Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 16 15:45:21 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 14:45:21 -0600 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <200604161331350572.6CA9C541@10.0.0.252> References: <1145202679.9628.8.camel@ljw.me.uk> <200604161015360837.6BF65927@10.0.0.252> <44429520.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca> <200604161331350572.6CA9C541@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4442ACE1.2080204@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Do you want to rephrase that? I do recall a simple assembler that did not > implement alpha constant strings longer than 2 bytes (as a DW). To code a > long string you had to do something like this: > > DW "EH" > DW "LL" > DW " O" > DW "OW" > DW "LR" > DW " D" > > Very tedious! > > Cheers, > Chuck More like: JMP DW THERE THERE ; rest of code From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Apr 16 17:05:29 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 17:05:29 -0500 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <1145202679.9628.8.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <20060416210630.LCQS20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > I've got a hex dump here of an Assembler/Text Editor for the 8080, > called (IIRC) ATE. It's what I used on my first computer (8080 S100 8k > + KC tape). It's about 4k, so I had 4k for source + object, or it could > work as a 2-pass assembler reading the source off tape. > > Does anyone know about this? Is it of interest to anyone? I could > either type it in, or scan the listing for someone else :-) The code > would need patching for console & tape I/O, and I don't have any > documentation on how to do this, or even how to use it, but it can't be > too difficult. Forgive me, it's been almost 30 years! You may be interested in my ALPS (Assembly Language Programming System) which I developed originally for my Altair back in late 70's/early 80's - I have versions of it for both my own DMF operating system, as well as NorthStar DOS. It consists of three main programs: [Most of my early Altair material was developed using this.] EDIT - Integrated line editor and 8080 assembler. Simple but decent line editor, and two-pass assembler that has everything you need. IIRC there's about 25 commands. The entire program is 3K in size. DIS - 8080 disassembler - builds symbol table and has other goodies to regenerate a workable source file - can produce output compatible with EDIT above - this program is 2K in size. TEST - 8080 Debugger - Memory/Register Dump & Examine/Change, block move fill etc. Breakpoints, Software-single step (can step over subroutine calls etc.) Built in disassmbler - nice companion to EDIT. IIRC about 15 commands. This program is also 3K in size. Both the NorthStar and DMF executables are included on the disks for my Altair simulator - I have also included the source disk which contains all of the source code to the three programs. You can build them on the simulator under EDIT, or you can use the ADI disk image utility to extract the source files to PC files if you like, and I believe they will assemble with my PC ASM85 with little or no changes... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 16 16:18:27 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 15:18:27 -0600 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <200604161331350572.6CA9C541@10.0.0.252> References: <1145202679.9628.8.camel@ljw.me.uk> <200604161015360837.6BF65927@10.0.0.252> <44429520.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca> <200604161331350572.6CA9C541@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4442B4A3.3080408@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Do you want to rephrase that? I do recall a simple assembler that did not > implement alpha constant strings longer than 2 bytes (as a DW). To code a > long string you had to do something like this: I found the book on the web after a google search. TEA, an 8080/8085 Co-Resident Editor/assembler I can't find any used copies of the book however. On the lighter side, I found a on-line archive of DTACK GROUNDED. http://linux.monroeccc.edu/~paulrsm/dg/dg.htm Interesting reading -- Nov 1981 $104 for a 4 MHZ 68000 CPU. From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Apr 16 17:20:45 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 17:20:45 -0500 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <20060416210630.LCQS20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <1145202679.9628.8.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <20060416212146.IEYG8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > You may be interested in my ALPS (Assembly Language Programming System) Forgot to mention - the documentation is posted on my web site - in the Altair section, under Documentation, subsection "My own software". -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Apr 16 17:03:19 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 15:03:19 -0700 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Big success! In-Reply-To: <20060416185954.GVZZ8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060416001055.VEBN8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060416185954.GVZZ8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4442BF27.6020202@msm.umr.edu> Dave Dunfield wrote: >>try doing a "POVF" and reporting what is there. Also type "WHAT" >> >> > >POVF gives me: > > > >>POVF >> >> > > 4585- 4585 : 1 46976- 46980 : 5 46982- 46990 : 9 > 46994- 46999 : 6 47040- 47077 : 38 47084- 47088 : 5 >-- Many more lines deleted for brevity - I can send off-list if useful -- > 51330- 51669 : 340 51671- 52227 : 557 52229- 52340 : 112 > 52342- 52351 : 10 52353- 74623 : 22271 > >ADDITIONAL FRAMES : 826 > >TOTAL NUMBER OF AVAILABLE FRAMES : 26139 > > > from below and above: you have 512K system which is a fairly large system. you have 8 active ports. 9 processes, 1 / port, 1 for the print spooler process 768 PCB0 means you have 768 abs frames, which contain the system code. from frame 768 to 4485 are the workspaces for the 9 processes, and also PCB's. Picks virtual architecture requres at any time a PCB, code to execute in any give ABS frame, and a monitor construct called a PIB. there is only one PIB / process, but there is a main PCB for the code to run in, and a special PCB for each process to run the debugger context in. the system file is laid down at 4485 and has 27 base frames (modulo = 1) a Maxfid of 74623 implies a 75mb disk if the frame sicze is 1024 and 35mb if it is 512. you have therefore got about 1/3 your space free. if you can dump a frame, say the first frame of the system frame we can infer from that dump what the frame size is. IIRC "DUMP 4485 (X" will give a hex dump. if it goes to 512, then we have 512 byte frames and the total system size id 74523 is multiplied by 512 to give the above estimate of 35mb, etc. Pick systems have been implemented with up to 4096 byte frames. more on the frames later. >WHAT gives me: > > > >>WHAT >> >> >00:04:08 23 SEP 1988 MAXUSERS [8] CURRENT # USERS [1] > CORE LINES PROCESSES PCB0 WSSTART WSSIZE SYSBASE/MODULO MAXFID OVRFLW > 512K 8 9 768 1056 127 4485 27 74623 26139 > >GROUP AND EXECUTION LOCKS (LOCK-PROCESS) > > >*000 000300 FF20 121.000 121.1BC 166.586 > 005 0003A0 BF00 170.06A 170.0B4 > 007 0003E0 BF00 170.06A 170.0B4 > 008 000400 BF00 170.06A 170.13C > > THE SPOOLER IS INACTIVE. > > PRINTER # 0 IS SERIAL AND INACTIVE. > THE PRINTER IS RUNNING ON PROCESS 7. > ASSIGNED OUTPUT QUEUES: 0. > > > THE NUMBER OF INTER-JOB PAGES TO EJECT IS 0. > > > PRINTER # 1 IS SERIAL AND INACTIVE. > THE PRINTER IS RUNNING ON PROCESS 5. > ASSIGNED OUTPUT QUEUES: 1. > THE NUMBER OF INTER-JOB PAGES TO EJECT IS 0. > > > >Thanks for the other warnings and hints... > > > > >>The system really is not that insecure, as there was and is the >>issue of how secure a software system can be without the >>encryption that is integrated into laptops today, if you have >>physical access to the machine. And the only place the >>exploit you pulled can happen is on the console, so if you >>secured the console and the connection and the machine, >>you were okay. and it was not feasible to be more secure >>as in encyrpting everything back then. >> >> > >Agreed - now that I'm in to it, I've found a "whole bunch" of >accounts which have no passwords and can get to a shell. >Several of them with "high privilege.... But if these acounts >were either removed or properly password protected, they >would not present the gaping hole in security that I >exploited. > >Btw, Why could this exploit not happen on another port or >the dial-in line ... Are the various system accounts (BACKUP >etc.) not accessable from all the ports (I tried from PORT-1 >and it worked) - Does the BREAK interrupt not work from >a dial-up line? -- Just curious as to why this "hole" would >not be accessable from a more remote terminal. > > > > the reason for mentioning securing the console or port 0, is that the system always boots up on that. therefore there are never any spurious breaks to annoy you. once the system releases the other lines to run and accept logons, they dont get the spooler startup window, they all just get LOGON PLEASE, which does not have the hole (in theory) BTW, the behaviour of hanging your console with a break probably is due to the fact that you can do break while in the kernel. before the system goes "virtual" and runs the other lines and allows logins, all the async I/O is done by the kernal, and is frequently not designed by the kernel coders to be tolerant of breaks. just a fact of life with what pick systems did. the open sys2 accounts are inexcusible. that is just sloppy system administration. one of the things that pick did was to turn people who usually had adding machines next to their desks into system administrators, and as you will find programmers. This lead to some leaps in what you could expect in skills with the site that ran pick. It is worse than now because there was no way to point to examples of how things like these accounts could bite you so even if our documentaiton and training said to get rid of them, there was always some guy who figured if the acocunts were unknown, noone would log into them. it gets worse from there. >>when you get a Dave account try the following Hello >>world program >> >>CREATE-FILE MYBP >> >>ED MYBP HELLO >> >> >>if the above works, you are cooking. >> >> > >Well... I used CREATE-ACCOUNT to create a DAVE >account - It asked me 4-5 rather terse/cryptic questions to >which I accepted the defaults. This created an account >which I could log in to, h > I am thinking that maybe you need SYS1 privileges to create files. I suspect that DAVE got created with SYS0. on SYSPROG try the following: CT SYSTEM DAVE that will show us what the account can do. if there is a SYS0, we can try an edit of the dictionary, but that may be prevented. some pick systems tried to put in protections on editing the system dictionary as a reliability factor. I am not that familiar with ADDS and it may take a utility to modify the account. if you can do the following we can get some more info on the system utilities. If it isn't too long, do the following: on SYSPROG LIST BP LISTVERBS and publish that. It will give hints about the system utilites names. if that turns out to be to long, see where Jay can put it out of line so we don't have a huge junk message. >owever > >CREATE-FILE advises me that I do not have sufficent >privilege to use this command! > >So I decided to try from the GAMES account since it lets >me get to a TCL prompt, and does not appear to be a >privileged account. > >'CREATE-FILE MYBP' results in this error message: > > > >>CREATE-FILE MYBP >> >> > >[416] RANGE ERROR IN MODULO PARAMETER. > > > > > > I don't have a system to try this on, sorry. CREATE-FILE MYBP 1,1 17,1 need dictionay and data section sizes. >Looks like it wants a parameter of some kind - tried >'CREATE-FILE MYBP 10' and got the same result, and >don't want to try too much else without knowing what >I'm actually doing - going to see if I can pickup a PICK >book or docs .... But if you can suggest resolutions to >the above (ie: How to create an account where you can >make files, and how to actually create the file)... that >would be helpful, as I agree that a "safe" account for >experimentation would be a good idea. > > >On the more positive side, I believe I have successfully >created two SYSGEN tapes - they can be booted (and it >works), but I have not tried performing an actual restore >from them ... > > > > >We are supposed to be getting high-speed wireless access in my >area within the next month or two ... If it works reliably (big if), I am >hoping to get a server set up here eventually which I can use to >make various classic systems available for on-line demos.. The >Mentor would be a good candidate - but given your warnings about >three-character death incantations, I don't know that I would make >the privileged users generally available... > > > I would never let SYSPROG be available on the net. I would rather have an R83 system online which could be restored than have a classic that could not. I guess at some time we should poke inside and see if the disk is a common one, and maybe you can do a swap and restore your backups. then we will have it made about keeping it running. I would never do a restore on the physical disk you have unless it forces you to. so the best approach will to be to try to find an identical one somewhere and put it in to try the restore on. >Dave > >-- >dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 16 16:01:32 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 22:01:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <4442ACE1.2080204@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Apr 16, 6 02:45:21 pm Message-ID: > > Do you want to rephrase that? I do recall a simple assembler that did not > > implement alpha constant strings longer than 2 bytes (as a DW). To code a > > long string you had to do something like this: > > > > DW "EH" > > DW "LL" > > DW " O" > > DW "OW" > > DW "LR" > > DW " D" I seem to rememebr the cassette-based editor/assembler I had for the TRS-80 Model 1 was like that. I am not even sure it supported ASCII characters as constants, you may have had to enter everything in Hex > > > > Very tedious! [...] > More like: > JMP > DW THERE > > THERE > ; rest of code I think (although I don't have it), the assembler for the Philips P850 was like that (you had to put the second word of 2-word instructions as a constant). The assemblers for the other P800 series machines (which had a lot more memory) did it more as you'd expect. -tony From daviderhart at oldzonian.com Sun Apr 16 17:35:34 2006 From: daviderhart at oldzonian.com (David W. Erhart) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 15:35:34 -0700 Subject: cool terminal manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001101c661a6$172e3f10$6501a8c0@caladan> I saw a Micro-Term Ergo 2000 terminal with a manual in WeirdStuff Warehouse in Sunnyvale, California a couple of weeks ago. david. daviderhart at oldzonian.com daviderhart at sageandstride.org > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Yvo Zoer > Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 4:43 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: cool terminal manuals > > Alright, > > This is a longshot, but you wouldn't happen to have a > Micro-Term Ergo 2000 Terminal manual laying around, would you? > > Cheers, > > > Yvo > From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun Apr 16 18:09:07 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 19:09:07 -0400 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <4442B4A3.3080408@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1145202679.9628.8.camel@ljw.me.uk> <200604161331350572.6CA9C541@10.0.0.252> <4442B4A3.3080408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200604161909.07111.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 16 April 2006 05:18 pm, woodelf wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Do you want to rephrase that? I do recall a simple assembler that did > > not implement alpha constant strings longer than 2 bytes (as a DW). To > > code a long string you had to do something like this: > > I found the book on the web after a google search. > TEA, an 8080/8085 Co-Resident Editor/assembler > I can't find any used copies of the book however. Published by Sams? I have that. In fact, it's a two-volume set, though apparently there's some difference in the editions I have or something as the covers to the two are quite different. They did some weird things to mnemonics in there. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Apr 16 18:37:52 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 00:37:52 +0100 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Big success! In-Reply-To: <4441584B.5060002@mdrconsult.com> References: <20060415194041.VCAA20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <44415538.30409@msm.umr.edu> <4441584B.5060002@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <4442D550.6020306@gjcp.net> Doc Shipley wrote: > jim stephens wrote: > >> In fairness to this forum, >> which has been patient with this, you should probably attempt to get a >> response from the usenet forum, comp.databases.pick. there are still >> original developers who may have been at adds still there from time to >> time, or lurking. If you wish to take this offline, I'll continue to >> help. > > My 0.02USD: > > As a member of this forum who doesn't own a Pick system and never > plans to own one, I have not been "patient with this thread", but > extremely interested in it, and I hope Dave continues to report on his > progress. I'd never even seen Pick before. I'd heard of it but only in very general terms. > I'm not sure what this mailing list's purpose *is*, if it's not > exactly this sort of dialogue. Exactly. Anyone fancy writing a modern implementation of Pick? Possibly as a backend for a website? Sick enough yet? Gordon. From Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com Sun Apr 16 19:21:47 2006 From: Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com (Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 20:21:47 EDT Subject: Tandy Model 16b computers availabe Message-ID: <31e.2e035aa.3174399b@wmconnect.com> Hi Kelly I will be up on Fri. if that is OK my phone # 610.488.0212 or cell: 903.520.5474 or I will call you if I had your number. Thanks, Al DePermentier From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Apr 16 21:15:23 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 19:15:23 -0700 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Big success! In-Reply-To: <4442D550.6020306@gjcp.net> References: <20060415194041.VCAA20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <44415538.30409@msm.umr.edu> <4441584B.5060002@mdrconsult.com> <4442D550.6020306@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4442FA3B.8070602@msm.umr.edu> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Doc Shipley wrote: > >> jim stephens wrote: >> >> > > > Exactly. Anyone fancy writing a modern implementation of Pick? > Possibly as a backend for a website? Sick enough yet? > > Gordon. > > how many would you like pointers to? There is a lot of Pick programming out there and the users and sometimes the programmers are not even aware of it. Jay pointed out at least one open source version that will allow one to do a lot of the pick functions, though hosted by linux, as is the norm now days. Jim From Useddec at aol.com Mon Apr 17 01:12:01 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 02:12:01 EDT Subject: RL drive lubrication Message-ID: <340.2c55d72.31748bb1@aol.com> If you need any RL or RK parts, including positioners, I have them. Paul From bernd at kopriva.de Mon Apr 17 02:21:20 2006 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 09:21:20 +0200 Subject: HP 9000 Pascal 3.2 : HFS on HP9133L Message-ID: <20060417073610.1A5D039764@linux.local> Hi, i'm currently trying to initialize my HP9133L with the HFS file system, but executing MKHFS only runs into an integer overflow exception ... ... this is independent of the number of volumes that are used (i have to admit, i only have tried 1 .. 3 volumes). I have a Basic 6.4 at hand as well, with this one, it's possible to initialize the drive, but then, the volume isn't accessible by Pascal anymore :( Another issue : is it possible to boot from the floppy within the 9133 ? I can only boot from another 9122 that is connected, but not with the 9133 build in drive, later it's possible to use it normally Thanks Bernd From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Apr 17 03:56:42 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 01:56:42 -0700 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Big success! References: <20060415194041.VCAA20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <44415538.30409@msm.umr.edu> <4441584B.5060002@mdrconsult.com> <4442D550.6020306@gjcp.net> <4442FA3B.8070602@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4443584B.C0C6D187@cs.ubc.ca> Over a period of a year or two circa 1977/8 I did some occasional programming on a Microdata Reality system. I was a teenager and it was the second computer I programmed on (and the first programming I was paid for). It was applications stuff (payroll/accounting) and I knew next to nothing about the underlying system, I didn't even know that there was something called Pick involved! So I'm finding it quite interesting hearing about Pick and the mentions of Microdata. I've rarely heard Microdata mentioned over the years. I remember the English database query language. As I recall, one could do a complex sort/select on a database with a single English 'sentence', something like: SELECT EMPLOYEES WITH PAYRATE>8.50 AND HIRED AFTER 1/6/76 SORT BY NAME (don't hold me to the syntax, it's been 28 years) and the resultant dataset would be held for further processing by a subsequently executed BASIC program. As a teenager I knew nothing about it's status in the realm of things, but I've since gathered that it was impressive for it's time (or ahead of it's time). I'm looking over some listings of BASIC programs I wrote (Microdata DATA/BASIC V2.4) (printed on greenbar paper of course) as I write this. The version of BASIC it had seemed pretty good (for BASIC), or perhaps it's the recollection of the improvement of going to a 24-line CRT display after my first experience programming on the single-line 32-char display of an HP 9830. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 17 07:54:30 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 07:54:30 -0500 Subject: Useddec@aol.com In-Reply-To: <340.2c55d72.31748bb1@aol.com> References: <340.2c55d72.31748bb1@aol.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060417071757.059238d0@mail> At 01:12 AM 4/17/2006, Useddec at aol.com wrote: >If you need any RL or RK parts, including positioners, I have them. A slightly different message than the other dozen one-sentence messages you've posted in the last two months, only in that you put the "I have" at the end of the sentence! You have them "for sale", you mean. I'm not anti-commerce. I'm torn between complaining about a steady slow stream of "I have (for sale)" one-sentence postings versus the usefulness of having an active DEC spare parts dealer on the list. As for the latter, I would guess that you have all sorts of knowledge that could be useful to the members of this list. Have you ever been tempted to post a technical observation or even a historical anecdote? Does this field interest you, or are we just customers? Do you have a web site? Where are you located? What do you stock, what do you scrap? - John From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Apr 17 10:26:07 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:26:07 -0500 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Some photos and Docs up on site Message-ID: <200604171426.k3HEQUJv007296@mail4.magma.ca> For anyone who is interested, I have posted some photos of the ADDS Mentor 2000 machine to my site. It's in the "Other" section... There's an easy to find link under "New/Updated" near the top of the page. I've also scanned the documents that I have for it and made them available as well. Enjoy, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From eric at rothfus.com Mon Apr 17 09:40:25 2006 From: eric at rothfus.com (Eric J. Rothfus) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 09:40:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Altair Floppy Questions Message-ID: <1145284407@rothfus.com> A couple Altair questions: Question 1 - has anyone seen/created an adapter for the 37-pin d-sub connector for the Altair floppy drive to the later standard 5.25" floppy interface. I use the term "standard" rather loosely, but am refering to the 34-pin connector used by the TRS-80, Heathkit, and numerous other machines of the late 70's. This "standard" with a couple changes became the PC's 5.25" interface. It doesn't look too tough, and I have a basic design in mind, by why re-invent the wheel if I don't have to? Question 2 - where can I find some blank hard-sectored 32-sector 8" floppies? Eric From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 17 10:58:14 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 09:58:14 -0600 Subject: Useddec@aol.com In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 17 Apr 2006 07:54:30 -0500. <6.2.3.4.2.20060417071757.059238d0@mail> Message-ID: Some people are just more chatty on the phone than on the keyboard. I've talked with Paul regarding various parts (and Paul, I apologize for not being timely in my responses, I need to call you back to work out the last details) and he's very friendly and informative. He just doesn't type out paragraphs and paragraphs on the list. I wouldn't even assume that everyone on this mailing list is a touch typer, considering the audience. For me, I hope Paul continues to post, even if its a 1-liner response to a thread that says "I have these". I note that Paul doesn't initiate these threads, he simply responds with availability information when its relevant. As for the "for sale" business, I find that unless someone says flat out in their message that its free for cost of shipping, or whatever, that there is always some horse trading or implied sale going on. I expect that most of us would easily pick up something that we came upon with fire sale prices just so we could turn it around to another collector for a little cash to subsidize purchases of stuff we collect. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 17 11:03:00 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:03:00 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <4442B4A3.3080408@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200604161331350572.6CA9C541@10.0.0.252> <1145202679.9628.8.camel@ljw.me.uk> <200604161015360837.6BF65927@10.0.0.252> <44429520.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca> <200604161331350572.6CA9C541@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060417110300.413f5d80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:18 PM 4/16/06 -0600, you wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >> Do you want to rephrase that? I do recall a simple assembler that did not >> implement alpha constant strings longer than 2 bytes (as a DW). To code a >> long string you had to do something like this: >I found the book on the web after a google search. >TEA, an 8080/8085 Co-Resident Editor/assembler >I can't find any used copies of the book however. I believe that I have a copy that I bought off of E-bay. I went and looked for it but couldn't find it (I have WAY too many books around here!) However I did find a book on DBUG by Titus, Titus, Rony and Larsen. It's one of the Blacksburg series of Bugbooks. I've never used it but it says that it can run in 1k! Joe > >On the lighter side, I found a on-line archive of DTACK GROUNDED. >http://linux.monroeccc.edu/~paulrsm/dg/dg.htm >Interesting reading -- Nov 1981 $104 for a 4 MHZ 68000 CPU. > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 17 11:11:20 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:11:20 Subject: HP 9000 Pascal 3.2 : HFS on HP9133L In-Reply-To: <20060417073610.1A5D039764@linux.local> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060417111120.413fb97c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:21 AM 4/17/06 +0200, you wrote: >Hi, >i'm currently trying to initialize my HP9133L with the HFS file system, but executing MKHFS only >runs into an integer overflow exception ... I've run into sitauations like this. It SEEMS like some OS will only run on certain machines and will give errors like this if they're run on other (lesser?) CPUs. I wasn't seriously interested in the bigger HP 9000/300s so I never pursued the matter further. >... this is independent of the number of volumes that are used (i have to admit, i only have tried >1 .. 3 volumes). >I have a Basic 6.4 at hand as well, with this one, it's possible to initialize the drive, but then, >the volume isn't accessible by Pascal anymore :( > >Another issue : is it possible to boot from the floppy within the 9133 ? I can only boot from another >9122 that is connected, but not with the 9133 build in drive, later it's possible to use it normally Check the format of a disk formatted in each drive. I believe that you'll find that they're different. I've run into situations like this when tring to use 9122C drives on the HP IPC. HP drives are just plain weird, they'll handle numerous formats but they default to all kinds of strange (and different!) formats. Joe > >Thanks Bernd > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 17 11:22:29 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 09:22:29 -0700 Subject: Useddec@aol.com In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060417071757.059238d0@mail> References: <340.2c55d72.31748bb1@aol.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20060417071757.059238d0@mail> Message-ID: At 7:54 AM -0500 4/17/06, John Foust wrote: >You have them "for sale", you mean. I'm not anti-commerce. I'm torn >between complaining about a steady slow stream of "I have (for sale)" >one-sentence postings versus the usefulness of having an active >DEC spare parts dealer on the list. Well, I for one find his postings are a *lot* less annoying than those of a certain emulator reseller on comp.os.vms. Also, I'm aware of at least two other dealers on the list (or at least they were in the past), one of who I've done a sizable amount of business with in the past. >Do you have a web site? Where are you located? What do you stock, >what do you scrap? Good questions, and do you offer Hobbyist pricing on anything? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 17 11:44:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 09:44:34 -0700 Subject: Altair Floppy Questions In-Reply-To: <1145284407@rothfus.com> References: <1145284407@rothfus.com> Message-ID: <200604170944340670.710045C4@10.0.0.252> On 4/17/2006 at 9:40 AM Eric J. Rothfus wrote: >Question 2 - where can I find some blank hard-sectored >32-sector 8" floppies? Herb Johnson has them NOS. Check out his retrocomputing website. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 17 11:52:10 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 09:52:10 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060417110300.413f5d80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200604161331350572.6CA9C541@10.0.0.252> <1145202679.9628.8.camel@ljw.me.uk> <200604161015360837.6BF65927@10.0.0.252> <44429520.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca> <200604161331350572.6CA9C541@10.0.0.252> <3.0.6.16.20060417110300.413f5d80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200604170952100806.71073B8C@10.0.0.252> My quip about "rephrasing" was of the statement: ">It was so primitive that instructions longer than 1 byte, had to be >assembled as 2 and 3 byte instructions." I think that the OP meant "2 or 3 1-byte instructions". I'm not doubting the primitiveness of the assembler being spoken about. Does anyone remember the conflict between the MITS and IMSAI (actually, the rest of the world) about using octal vs. hex representations of data? It's very obvious just by looking at the two systems--the Altair 8800 spaces the front panel toggles in groups of 3, whereas the IMSAI 8080 color-codes the switches in groups of 4. I think that the early MITS assembler used octal, although it's very hard to remember. Cheers, Chuck From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon Apr 17 12:05:37 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:05:37 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <200604170952100806.71073B8C@10.0.0.252> References: <200604161331350572.6CA9C541@10.0.0.252> <1145202679.9628.8.camel@ljw.me.uk> <200604161015360837.6BF65927@10.0.0.252> <44429520.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca> <200604161331350572.6CA9C541@10.0.0.252> <3.0.6.16.20060417110300.413f5d80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200604170952100806.71073B8C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4443CAE1.50206@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > My quip about "rephrasing" was of the statement: > > ">It was so primitive that instructions longer than 1 byte, had to be >> assembled as 2 and 3 byte instructions." > > I think that the OP meant "2 or 3 1-byte instructions". I'm not doubting > the primitiveness of the assembler being spoken about. > > Does anyone remember the conflict between the MITS and IMSAI (actually, the > rest of the world) about using octal vs. hex representations of data? It's > very obvious just by looking at the two systems--the Altair 8800 spaces the > front panel toggles in groups of 3, whereas the IMSAI 8080 color-codes the > switches in groups of 4. I think that the early MITS assembler used octal, > although it's very hard to remember. ROTFLMFAO! When I was developing Z80-based products, an ongoing *battle* was the use of hex vs. "split octal" (e.g., 0xFFFF -> 0377 0377). The octal camp claimed the Z80 was an "octal machine" (oh, really?) and, for "proof", showed how so many of the opcodes could be committed to memory just my noting the source & destination register "codes" and packing them into an octal representation: xx xxx xxx (of course, I wonder how well their argument would stand up if Zilog had opted to encode the register fields as: xs dds dsx?? :> ) Octal? Hex? Just give me a symbolic debugger and let *it* keep track of these minutae... Ah for the days of toggling in bootstrap loaders with front panel switches.. :-/ (at least bigger machines treated octal as "real" octal and not this "spilt octal" nonsense...) --don From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Apr 17 13:14:10 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (dave06a at dunfield.com) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 13:14:10 -0500 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <200604170952100806.71073B8C@10.0.0.252> References: <3.0.6.16.20060417110300.413f5d80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200604171714.k3HHEWBl016743@mail4.magma.ca> > Does anyone remember the conflict between the MITS and IMSAI (actually, the > rest of the world) about using octal vs. hex representations of data? It's > very obvious just by looking at the two systems--the Altair 8800 spaces the > front panel toggles in groups of 3, whereas the IMSAI 8080 color-codes the > switches in groups of 4. I think that the early MITS assembler used octal, > although it's very hard to remember. Yes - one of the things I didn't like so much about the Altair - I came from an IBM mainframe background and HEX was "in my blood" (I still find myself going 8, 9, 10, A, B, ... oh crap ...) when I am counting things (not computer related) sometimes. To be fair to MITS however - note that the Intel 8080 processor was deisgned for octal - the register fields are three bits an on octal boundaries, as are the condition bits and restart vectors - most of the instruction set was originally documented in octal - I think Ed and gang just did "what seemed to make sense at the time". More than one Altair owner disagreed - I never modified my machine, but just got used to "seeing the switches in groups of four" - At least a couple of the photos I've seen on the net have lines drawn on the front panel to separate the groups of four. Another Altair 8800 that I picked up later has what I think is a really elegant solution. The owner simply used some of the little plastic colored toggle switch lever covers to mark the second bank of four switches from the right - makes it easy to see them in hex, and does not permanently alter the machine. And ... apparently some IMSAI owners also disagreed! - One of my IMSAI front panels has the switch colors arranged in groups of three (which points out a nice feature of the IMSAI kit - you could built it either way). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From shirsch at adelphia.net Mon Apr 17 12:29:27 2006 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 13:29:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access? In-Reply-To: <443C22CC.5060009@gmail.com> References: <002701c65d93$05186ba0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <443C22CC.5060009@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > John Allain wrote: > > Speaking of 3D... > > Feeling reminiscent, I picked up am sgi Indigo2 at a fair price... > > This is the first sgi I've owned, after various bouts of programming > > and managing the older models for large companies. > > > > Anyway, I'm getting the impression that there's no way to log in to > > 5.3 without a password (single mode is even pwded). So, anybody > > know an exploit or have an IRIX 5.3 CD that they can sell,copy or > > loan to me? > > What filesystem does it use? You might be able to boot Linux and alter he > master passwd file. IRIX 5.3 would probably be using the 'efs' file system, which is (or was) supported by Linux. I know I was able to mount and read the IRIX distribution media on a Linux box a few years ago. -- From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 17 12:35:03 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useddec@aol.com In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Apr 17, 2006 09:58:14 AM Message-ID: <200604171735.k3HHZ3FO013921@onyx.spiritone.com> > For me, I hope Paul continues to post, even if its a 1-liner response > to a thread that says "I have these". BTW, it probably wasn't clear from my last reply on this subject, but I agree. If I'm in need of a specific part, I'd definitely like to know that someone has it, and I don't have a problem with a dealer letting people know. Also, I took a look at a few of his previous and it appears that he also replies to people privately. So I'm guessing he is using some judgement and only posting to the list when he thinks several people will find his posts of interest. Besides, his posts are more on topic than a lot of the threads (and most of us are guilty of that at different times :^) And they're short and to the point. Zane From allain at panix.com Mon Apr 17 13:21:23 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 14:21:23 -0400 Subject: Useddec@aol.com References: <340.2c55d72.31748bb1@aol.com><6.2.3.4.2.20060417071757.059238d0@mail> Message-ID: <000f01c6624b$bc42c700$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > >Do you have a web site? Where are you located? What do you stock, > >what do you scrap? > > Good questions, and do you offer Hobbyist pricing on anything? Seconded, and, Thirded. John A. From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Apr 17 14:37:14 2006 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:37:14 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <4442B4A3.3080408@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1145202679.9628.8.camel@ljw.me.uk> <200604161015360837.6BF65927@10.0.0.252> <44429520.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca> <200604161331350572.6CA9C541@10.0.0.252> <4442B4A3.3080408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90604171237u374084d6u2cf3731370d005bd@mail.gmail.com> >On 4/16/06, woodelf wrote: > > I found the book on the web after a google search. > TEA, an 8080/8085 Co-Resident Editor/assembler > I can't find any used copies of the book however. amazon.com lists a few used copes in the $4 - $10 range. ISBN: 0672216280 From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Apr 17 15:31:11 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:31:11 -0400 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060417110300.413f5d80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200604161331350572.6CA9C541@10.0.0.252> <3.0.6.16.20060417110300.413f5d80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200604171631.11251.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 17 April 2006 07:03 am, Joe R. wrote: > At 03:18 PM 4/16/06 -0600, you wrote: > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Do you want to rephrase that? I do recall a simple assembler that did > >> not implement alpha constant strings longer than 2 bytes (as a DW). To > >> code a long string you had to do something like this: > > > >I found the book on the web after a google search.TEA, an 8080/8085 > > Co-Resident Editor/assembler I can't find any used copies of the book > > however. > > I believe that I have a copy that I bought off of E-bay. I went and > looked for it but couldn't find it (I have WAY too many books around here!) > However I did find a book on DBUG by Titus, Titus, Rony and Larsen. It's > one of the Blacksburg series of Bugbooks. I've found those to be somewhat interesting to read, and wouldn't mind reading a copy of that one in particular (if you feel like parting with it for a while :-). > I've never used it but it says that it can run in 1k! Not surprising there. I was working on a monitor/debugger a while back and it had just edged past fitting into a 2716 and would fit in a 2732 with lots of extra room to spare, but I hadn't optimized it for space or cleaned it up any when I put it aside, some time ago. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Apr 17 15:35:32 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:35:32 -0400 Subject: Altair Floppy Questions In-Reply-To: <200604170944340670.710045C4@10.0.0.252> References: <1145284407@rothfus.com> <200604170944340670.710045C4@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200604171635.32525.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 17 April 2006 12:44 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/17/2006 at 9:40 AM Eric J. Rothfus wrote: > >Question 2 - where can I find some blank hard-sectored > >32-sector 8" floppies? > > Herb Johnson has them NOS. Check out his retrocomputing website. I remember Herb from the fidonet CPMTECH echo. Got a URL for that site handy? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 17 15:56:27 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 13:56:27 -0700 Subject: Altair Floppy Questions In-Reply-To: <200604171635.32525.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <1145284407@rothfus.com> <200604170944340670.710045C4@10.0.0.252> <200604171635.32525.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200604171356270046.71E6E473@10.0.0.252> On 4/17/2006 at 4:35 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >I remember Herb from the fidonet CPMTECH echo. Got a URL for that site >handy? http://retrotechnology.com/ --Chuck From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Apr 17 15:59:31 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:59:31 -0400 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <4443CAE1.50206@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200604161331350572.6CA9C541@10.0.0.252> <200604170952100806.71073B8C@10.0.0.252> <4443CAE1.50206@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200604171659.31132.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 17 April 2006 01:05 pm, Don Y wrote: > > Does anyone remember the conflict between the MITS and IMSAI (actually, > > the rest of the world) about using octal vs. hex representations of data? > > It's very obvious just by looking at the two systems--the Altair 8800 > > spaces the front panel toggles in groups of 3, whereas the IMSAI 8080 > > color-codes the switches in groups of 4. I think that the early MITS > > assembler used octal, although it's very hard to remember. > > ROTFLMFAO! > > When I was developing Z80-based products, an ongoing *battle* > was the use of hex vs. "split octal" (e.g., 0xFFFF -> 0377 0377). > The octal camp claimed the Z80 was an "octal machine" (oh, really?) > and, for "proof", showed how so many of the opcodes could be > committed to memory just my noting the source & destination > register "codes" and packing them into an octal representation: > xx xxx xxx (of course, I wonder how well their argument would > stand up if Zilog had opted to encode the register fields > as: xs dds dsx?? :> ) Hehe. I remember that "big controversy", dunno at this point if it was in some of the magazines or what. Me, I wish they'd made those common TTL 7-segment decoder/driver chips display something more like hex when you got into codes past 9... > Octal? Hex? Just give me a symbolic debugger and let *it* > keep track of these minutae... Indeed. > Ah for the days of toggling in bootstrap loaders with front > panel switches.. :-/ (at least bigger machines treated octal > as "real" octal and not this "spilt octal" nonsense...) As did that H11 that I got to type in the boot loader any time I wanted to do something with it, which I did indeed find exceedingly tedious. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Apr 17 18:20:41 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 18:20:41 -0500 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <200604171659.31132.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <4443CAE1.50206@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <20060417222142.YLOK8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > When I was developing Z80-based products, an ongoing *battle* > was the use of hex vs. "split octal" (e.g., 0xFFFF -> 0377 0377). > The octal camp claimed the Z80 was an "octal machine" (oh, really?) > and, for "proof", showed how so many of the opcodes could be > committed to memory just my noting the source & destination > register "codes" and packing them into an octal representation: > xx xxx xxx (of course, I wonder how well their argument would > stand up if Zilog had opted to encode the register fields > as: xs dds dsx?? :> ) I'm not promoting the Octal side (indeed I much prefer HEX), however Zilog didn't "opt" for anything - they based their design and instruction set decoding on the Intel 8080, which was laid out in a manner which made sense with "Octal". And Intel DIDN'T use xsddsdsx, they DID use xxdddsss - which made perfect sense from an Octal standpoint (which is why so many people promoted the use of Octal with it). > Octal? Hex? Just give me a symbolic debugger and let *it* > keep track of these minutae... By the time the Z80 was common, so were good assemblers and debuggers - but when the 8080 (ie: this instruction set) was designed, there was no such software commonly available for "personal use" - chances are your assembler was a pad of paper, a pencil and the Intel databook (thats how I wrote my earliest software). More often than not the debugger was a set of binary switches, or if you were really high- tech, a very simple poke into memory monitor squeezed into a 1702. The only "symbolic" thing about it was the pad of paper (sometimes it was an integrated symbolic assembler/debugger, where you wrote out the code on one side of the pad, the hex opcodes in the middle and patches/debug notes on the right - of the same pad). Thats why a lot of people opted for Octal with the 8080 - in Octal the instruction set was fairly easy to remember ... For example '1sd' gave you all the MOV combinations. If you had the instruction set and it's encoding committed to memory, you could go a LOT faster during the "assembly phase". It also made debugging easier. I never got to like Octal, so I worked in hex anyway - I made "cheat sheets" to look up the opcodes, which I eventually memorized - I could go faster than most of the "Octal" guys... > Ah for the days of toggling in bootstrap loaders with front > panel switches.. :-/ (at least bigger machines treated octal > as "real" octal and not this "spilt octal" nonsense...) Agreed - one of the things I disliked most about Octal was the ambiguity over representation of 16-bit quantities, and the fact that you had to either "convert" to do it "right", or put up with a little 2/3 digit in the middle (which made mental arithmetic challenging) - The fact that you could just "stick two hex bytes together" was reason enough for me to keep with it. BTW - something I forgot to mention in my earlier post, Mits wasn't going against "Everyone else" - there were a number of other companies which embraced Octal for the 8080. Heath is another "biggie", but I saw a good chunk of other Octal based equipment during the time period. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jvdg at sparcpark.net Mon Apr 17 16:50:13 2006 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 23:50:13 +0200 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <1753.86.139.111.237.1145053975.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: On 4/15/06 12:32 AM, Lee Davison wrote: > The TV version is very much a victim of it's format. But the Book animations in the series have a wonderful '80's 8-bit home computer feel to them. Takes me back to dreams I had of owning Atari's and the like back in those years. Hm. Time to pull out the DVD box set and watch it again over the coming few evenings. ,xtG .tsooJ -- Pay attention to your enemies for they are the first to discover your mistakes. - Antisthenes -- Joost van de Griek From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 17 17:46:34 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:46:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HHGTTG (Was: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060417154331.X35780@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Joost van de Griek wrote: > But the Book animations in the series have a wonderful '80's 8-bit home > computer feel to them. Takes me back to dreams I had of owning Atari's and > the like back in those years. They are certainly some great computer graphics. Particularly since they were NOT computer generated! > Hm. Time to pull out the DVD box set and watch it again over the coming few > evenings. should always do so periodically. Repeated Q: Does anybody have a copoy of "Hyperland"? (PRE-WWW BBC documentary made by Douglas Adams, Ted Nelson, ...) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 17 17:53:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:53:46 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <20060417222142.YLOK8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <4443CAE1.50206@DakotaCom.Net> <20060417222142.YLOK8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200604171553460478.72524DF5@10.0.0.252> On 4/17/2006 at 6:20 PM Dave Dunfield wrote: >By the time the Z80 was common, so were good assemblers and >debuggers - but when the 8080 (ie: this instruction set) was designed, >there was no such software commonly available for "personal use" - >chances are your assembler was a pad of paper, a pencil and the Intel >databook (thats how I wrote my earliest software). When I started to get into microprocessors, I wrote my own 8008 cross-assembler--and I used hex on a CDC 6600 (which was, curiously, an octal machine--60 bit words with 6 bit characters). It just made sense. I never finished the 8008 machine I was building, but went for the 8080 when it came out as the MITS box. I revised the 8008 assembler to assemble 8080 codes. IIRC, my assembler was a one-pass job. There wasn't any good reason to write a two-pass assembler, given the simplicity of the code I was writing. Hex actually made a lot of sense, not only from the standpoint of 8-bit characters, but also due to the decimal arithmetic available on both the 8008 and 8080 MPU's. Try reading packed decimal coded in octal! Cheers, Chuck From Useddec at aol.com Mon Apr 17 17:58:16 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 18:58:16 EDT Subject: Useddec@aol.com Message-ID: <36c.291c37c.31757788@aol.com> Hi John, Well, I try to be useful. I have replied to both technical and historical inquiries both on and off list. I worked in field service for DEC for several years and had to leave because of health reasons. I've dealt with used DEC parts for a number of years, but am again having health problems. I would much rather give phone support (which I often offer on my dime) than on line support because of neurological problems that make it slow and difficult to type. I am interested in this field, and enjoy sharing my somewhat limited knowledge with people weather they are customers or not. I do not have a web site, but have recently started an E-bay store, and am located in Illinois. I have mostly DEC and DEC compatible parts and lots of them. If I can answer any other questions, feel free to ask. Thanks, Paul Anderson From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 17 18:13:43 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Re: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <9e2403920604151028l557347afkdacdb6d108723a39@mail.gmail.com> from "Josef Chessor" at Apr 15, 2006 12:28:15 PM Message-ID: <200604172313.k3HNDh1e024255@onyx.spiritone.com> > Nine, actually. > > The two before my time (I'm ashamed that I can't remember them!), John > Pertwee, Tom Baker, Peter Davidson, Colin Baker, Sylvester McCoy, the > one from the US movie, and now Christopher Eccleston. Um, actually 11 or 12 (assuming I'm not forgetting any). There was the guy that did the two Movies in the 60's that remade the first couple Dalek stories. Then I think for one of the "'x' Doctors" stories they had someone else playing the first Doctor who was dead by that time. Also, the 10th Doctor has been cast, and I've heard that the new series will start showing in the UK any time now. The one actress from "Ab Fab" also played the Doctor in a special. > I was gifted with a wonderful PBS station in St. Louis, MO for my > formative years. I've seen all of the episodes they played from John > Pertwee to Sylvester McCoy, and a good smattering from the first two > Doctors that were released here in the US... Of all of them, I miss > John Pertwee the most. :( Ditto, ours did as well, plus I was able to watch them off and on while in the Military. I'm watching the 9th Doctor now, and really like what I've seen so far, it's a shame Christopher Eccleston was only willing to do one Series. From what I've seen so far, he played a very good Doctor. I really wish PBS still showed the Doctor, as I'd really like to watch the 3rd, 6th, 7th, and even the 1st and 2nd Doctors again. While I've seen the 4th and 5th Doctors episodes numerous times, I've only seen the others once. BTW, the reason you've only seen a smattering of the first two, is that is all that still exists :^( Zane From Useddec at aol.com Mon Apr 17 18:58:46 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 19:58:46 EDT Subject: IBM PC and PS/2 parts and compatables Message-ID: <394.c8e696.317585b6@aol.com> Wanting to sell approx. 100 IBM PC and PS/2 boards, keyboards, drives, power supplies, and compatibles. If you are interested, please contact me off list for further details. Priced to move! One piece or the entire lot Thanks Paul Anderson _useddec at aol.com_ (mailto:useddec at aol.com) From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Apr 17 19:39:09 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 20:39:09 -0400 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <20060414135512.J92530@shell.lmi.net> References: <444003E8.6060402@srv.net> <444002DB.5010105@jetnet.ab.ca> <20060414135512.J92530@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20060418003909.653B8104000C@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Well, you're not going to like it, but it took a very large computer to > > > come > > > up with that number (read the book). I'd go into more details, but I've > > > got to > > > check out the diodes going down the left side of my robot... > On Fri, 14 Apr 2006, woodelf wrote: > > Or watch the movie "The hitch hikers guide to the galaxy". > > The book is better. > The BBC TV series was WAY better than the [Disney] movie. Ha! Purists insist on the original, the BBC radio series! Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 17 19:05:56 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 01:05:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <200604171659.31132.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Apr 17, 6 04:59:31 pm Message-ID: > > When I was developing Z80-based products, an ongoing *battle* > > was the use of hex vs. "split octal" (e.g., 0xFFFF -> 0377 0377). I've worked on a machine where an 8-bit microcode adress was given in 4-digit split octal. That is, something like 1207 for A7 hex. > > The octal camp claimed the Z80 was an "octal machine" (oh, really?) I am trying to rememebr, but I _think_ the Intellec MCS8i has the front panel data switches grouped in 3s (albeit only by white lines on the panel), even though all the ROM monitor commands use hex > > and, for "proof", showed how so many of the opcodes could be > > committed to memory just my noting the source & destination > > register "codes" and packing them into an octal representation: > > xx xxx xxx (of course, I wonder how well their argument would > > stand up if Zilog had opted to encode the register fields > > as: xs dds dsx?? :> ) Yes, but they didn't. Many of the simpler (8080) opcodes are easier to encode in octal... Would you claim the PDP11 was an octal or hex machine? It's 16 bit (so hex would be more natural), but I've never seen the machine language written in anything other than octal (or pure binary, of course). Again, for many (but not all) instructions, there are 3-bit fields aligned on octal digit boundaries for things like register selection. > Me, I wish they'd made those common TTL 7-segment decoder/driver chips > display something more like hex when you got into codes past 9... I think the display patters for 1010-1111 for the 7447A (I assume that's one of the chips you were refereing to) came naturally from the logic used to decode 0000-1001, along with the fact that 1111 should be a blank. Rememebr when that chip was designed, every gate cost money :-), it certainly isn't a 16 word * 7 bit ROM. That said, I think it is a pity there wasn't a later TTL 7 segment decoder chip (say a 74LS547 or something) that did display 0-F as you might expect. -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 17 20:10:35 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 20:10:35 -0500 Subject: Fw: PDT 11 etc (tek term and link term) Message-ID: <002201c66284$e615c7b0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Please contact original posted directly, I have no association, etc. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Westheimer" To: Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 10:12 AM Subject: PDT 11 etc One of my "older" customers gave me a PDT 11 a tektronix and link terminal. I hate to dump it any suggestions? -- Tom Westheimer Home: tom at westheimers.net Work: tom at abilities.com (I use spamarrest so please excuse the need to verify the first time you email me and Thanks) From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon Apr 17 20:21:07 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 18:21:07 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <20060417222142.YLOK8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <4443CAE1.50206@DakotaCom.Net> <20060417222142.YLOK8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <44443F03.3080406@DakotaCom.Net> Dave Dunfield wrote: >> When I was developing Z80-based products, an ongoing *battle* >> was the use of hex vs. "split octal" (e.g., 0xFFFF -> 0377 0377). >> The octal camp claimed the Z80 was an "octal machine" (oh, really?) >> and, for "proof", showed how so many of the opcodes could be >> committed to memory just my noting the source & destination >> register "codes" and packing them into an octal representation: >> xx xxx xxx (of course, I wonder how well their argument would >> stand up if Zilog had opted to encode the register fields >> as: xs dds dsx?? :> ) > > I'm not promoting the Octal side (indeed I much prefer HEX), however > Zilog didn't "opt" for anything - they based their design and instruction > set decoding on the Intel 8080, which was laid out in a manner which > made sense with "Octal". And Intel DIDN'T use xsddsdsx, they DID use > xxdddsss - which made perfect sense from an Octal standpoint (which > is why so many people promoted the use of Octal with it). But the Z80 isn't an 8085 nor is the 8085 an 8080. (granted, the last two are much closer related than the first two). And, there is no reason why xx ddd sss is any *better* than xs dsd sdx or sd xxd ssd for an instruction encoding. *We* used (split) octal because our MTOS supported hot patching and it was convenient to "hand assemble" code patches on the fly to fix bugs, etc. (gdb wasn't around for an 8080 in ~1976) >> Octal? Hex? Just give me a symbolic debugger and let *it* >> keep track of these minutae... > > By the time the Z80 was common, so were good assemblers and > debuggers - but when the 8080 (ie: this instruction set) was designed, > there was no such software commonly available for "personal use" - > chances are your assembler was a pad of paper, a pencil and the Intel > databook (thats how I wrote my earliest software). More often than not > the debugger was a set of binary switches, or if you were really high- > tech, a very simple poke into memory monitor squeezed into a 1702. My first coding job was porting a 4004 based product to the 8080 (actually, the 8085 came out before we were done so that became the target -- no real differences from the software standpoint) > The only "symbolic" thing about it was the pad of paper (sometimes > it was an integrated symbolic assembler/debugger, where you wrote > out the code on one side of the pad, the hex opcodes in the middle > and patches/debug notes on the right - of the same pad). > > Thats why a lot of people opted for Octal with the 8080 - in Octal > the instruction set was fairly easy to remember ... For example > '1sd' gave you all the MOV combinations. If you had the instruction > set and it's encoding committed to memory, you could go a LOT > faster during the "assembly phase". It also made debugging Sure! And for the 4004 we carried a small sheet of paper neatly folded in half and tucked in our wallets. > easier. I never got to like Octal, so I worked in hex anyway - I > made "cheat sheets" to look up the opcodes, which I eventually > memorized - I could go faster than most of the "Octal" guys... > >> Ah for the days of toggling in bootstrap loaders with front >> panel switches.. :-/ (at least bigger machines treated octal >> as "real" octal and not this "spilt octal" nonsense...) > > Agreed - one of the things I disliked most about Octal was the > ambiguity over representation of 16-bit quantities, and the fact > that you had to either "convert" to do it "right", or put up with a > little 2/3 digit in the middle (which made mental arithmetic > challenging) - The fact that you could just "stick two hex bytes > together" was reason enough for me to keep with it. Exactly. Hence the advantage of things like the Nova over the *80 devices -- you *know* you're dealing with words instead of trying to cover both possibilities (with "split" octal). I can still hear myself mumbling "High Low 377 377" (r.hl <- 0xFFFF) > BTW - something I forgot to mention in my earlier post, Mits > wasn't going against "Everyone else" - there were a number > of other companies which embraced Octal for the 8080. Heath > is another "biggie", but I saw a good chunk of other Octal based > equipment during the time period. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 17 20:19:01 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 20:19:01 -0500 Subject: Fw: I've got a DEC Micro PDP11 Message-ID: <007d01c66286$13bb2790$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I am not sure if I forwarded this to the list yet.... if this is a duplicate, my apologies. Contact original author directly, I have no affiliation, etc... Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lane Winter" To: Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 10:56 PM Subject: I've got a DEC Micro PDP11 > with a RL02 and 2-3 disk packs.... not sure what to do with it. It does > work. It's been a "conversation piece" for awhile now but I'd like to sell > it. Not sure what it's worth tho. I might even be convinced into donating > it > if I knew it'd go to a display somewhere. > > Lane Winter > > reply via --> lanebw at comcast.net > From gkaufman at the-planet.org Mon Apr 17 20:21:25 2006 From: gkaufman at the-planet.org (Gary E Kaufman) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 21:21:25 -0400 Subject: Decmate I In-Reply-To: <200604171700.k3HH03Rn018354@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I picked up a Decmate I / RX02's this weekend at a hamfest, which appears to try and boot - unfortunately I don't have a good boot-disk. Can anyone share a copy of the bootdisk (or operating instructions)? Many thanks! - Gary From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon Apr 17 20:27:49 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 18:27:49 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <200604171659.31132.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200604161331350572.6CA9C541@10.0.0.252> <200604170952100806.71073B8C@10.0.0.252> <4443CAE1.50206@DakotaCom.Net> <200604171659.31132.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <44444095.2050000@DakotaCom.Net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Me, I wish they'd made those common TTL 7-segment decoder/driver chips > display something more like hex when you got into codes past 9... Some do. I recall feeling "giddy" when I had a design with individual control of the segments. Sure, there was another (trivial) step for the display multiplexor to perform (mapping "codes" to segments) but we were no longer stuck with "mode 79", "mode 35", etc. Of course, things were only marginally better for the user as many of the (ahem) "words" that you could display were really pathetic! :-( But, PGD's were neat looking. Almost as neat as nixies! From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Mon Apr 17 20:48:04 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 18:48:04 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44444554.2010202@DakotaCom.Net> Tony Duell wrote: [attributions lost] >> Me, I wish they'd made those common TTL 7-segment decoder/driver chips >> display something more like hex when you got into codes past 9... > > I think the display patters for 1010-1111 for the 7447A (I assume that's > one of the chips you were refereing to) came naturally from the logic > used to decode 0000-1001, along with the fact that 1111 should be a > blank. Rememebr when that chip was designed, every gate cost money :-), > it certainly isn't a 16 word * 7 bit ROM. What was more amusing was two different versions -- "with tails" and without! :> > That said, I think it is a pity there wasn't a later TTL 7 segment > decoder chip (say a 74LS547 or something) that did display 0-F as you > might expect. *Something* does this -- though I may have been driving LCD's at the time (thus CMOS parts). But, I remember a 7441 (though what I used it for I am unsure... :< ) From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 17 20:51:52 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 20:51:52 -0500 Subject: ibm bookmanager (.boo) files? Message-ID: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I have a ibm manual in bookmanager format (it's a .boo file). Would anyone happen to have the software to import this, then put it back out as pdf (preferred) or some other format that I can print from cover to cover? If so, please contact me off list. I googled for this and found some leads, but none of them still had the reader software available for download. Thanks! Jay West From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Apr 17 20:59:11 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 18:59:11 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) References: <44444554.2010202@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <444447EF.BBC312A7@cs.ubc.ca> Don Y wrote: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > [attributions lost] > > >> Me, I wish they'd made those common TTL 7-segment decoder/driver chips > >> display something more like hex when you got into codes past 9... > > > > I think the display patters for 1010-1111 for the 7447A (I assume that's > > one of the chips you were refereing to) came naturally from the logic > > used to decode 0000-1001, along with the fact that 1111 should be a > > blank. Rememebr when that chip was designed, every gate cost money :-), > > it certainly isn't a 16 word * 7 bit ROM. > > What was more amusing was two different versions -- "with tails" and > without! :> > > > That said, I think it is a pity there wasn't a later TTL 7 segment > > decoder chip (say a 74LS547 or something) that did display 0-F as you > > might expect. > > *Something* does this -- though I may have been driving LCD's > at the time (thus CMOS parts). But, I remember a 7441 (though > what I used it for I am unsure... :< ) The Fairchild 9368 and 9370 TTL chips provide full hex (0-9,A-F) decoding. Available at least as early as 1975. But yes, they weren't exactly common and they're difficult to come by today. (7441 is the 1-of-10 NIXIE driver) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 17 21:10:06 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 20:10:06 -0600 Subject: Decmate I In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 17 Apr 2006 21:21:25 -0400. Message-ID: In article , "Gary E Kaufman" writes: > I picked up a Decmate I / RX02's this weekend at a hamfest, which appears to > try and boot - unfortunately I don't have a good boot-disk. Can anyone > share a copy of the bootdisk (or operating instructions)? I would be interested in knowing this as well as where I could find an RX02 set to hook up to my DECmate II :-). Is the cabling just a straight run from the connector on the back of the VT278 to the RX02? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From whdawson at nidhog.net Mon Apr 17 21:11:50 2006 From: whdawson at nidhog.net (Bill Dawson) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 22:11:50 -0400 Subject: IBM 3174 & Display Terminal Parts free for cost of shipping Message-ID: Firstly, this is located in Washington, PA 15301. Here's what I have and want to get rid of: 1. 3174-51R (single floppy). Was working when removed from service. 2. 3192 color monitor less keyboard. Beeps on power-up. Shows a cursor in the upper LH corner and status line bar across the bottom. No screen burn. It has the key for the base keyboard lock. 3. 3192 base less monitor and keyboard. Powers up the same as #2 above using that monitor. No key. 4. 3191 logic board, IBM part number 6456289. Appears to work the same as #3 above. If you are interested in any or all of this let me know and I'll box it up and ascertain the shipping cost(s). I'll need your shipping address also. Regards, Bill From evan at snarc.net Mon Apr 17 22:16:52 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 23:16:52 -0400 Subject: The official VCF East 3.0 press release... Message-ID: <001801c66296$8a6e78f0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Please spread this far and wide! -------------------------------------------- *** Vintage Computer Festival East 3.0 -- Saturday, May 13 -- Wall Township, N.J. *** April 17, 2005 -- Wall Township, N.J. -- The Vintage Computer Festival is coming! For those who fondly remember the charisma of computers from the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s, this is a must-attend event!! "VCF" as it's known in computer circles is an annual public convention devoted to the enjoyment and restoration of antique computers. The show began in Silicon Valley in 1997 and the current edition is VCF East 3.0. At this year's VCF you will find 17 exhibits of functioning antique computers, six high-profile guest speakers, exciting prizes, and kinship with hundreds of fellow early adopters. Spend a few hours at this event and you'll be in nerd heaven! There will be dozens of antique computers on display from the glory days of blinkenlights, tape drives, greenbar paper, punched cards, homebrew kits, text-adventure games, and much, much more -- and no Windows in sight. Like we said, it's nerd heaven! Use the day to learn, play, or just reminisce with us. So mark Saturday, May 13 on your calendar. VCF East 3.0 will be held at the (new!) Information Age Science and History Education Center, a.k.a. "InfoAge," which was formerly the Camp Evans U.S. Army base and was originally built for the Marconi corporation in the early 1900s. The show's hours are 9:30AM - 6:30PM. Tickets are $10 per person ($7 for children 13 and younger) and parking is free. The address is 2201 Marconi Rd., Wall (Belmar), N.J. and driving directions are posted at http://www.vintage.org/2006/east/directions.php VCF East 3.0's sponsor is the Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists Inc., which is a non-profit user group devoted to antique computing. MARCH is also building a computer museum at the InfoAge facility, where there are also museums dedicated to antique radio, model trains, historic shipwrecks, antique military vehicles, and much more. The museums opened this month in a preview facility and the full museums will debut gradually throughout 2006-2007. *** The exhibits *** There are 17 registered exhibits for VCF East 3.0. The exhibitors are: -- Vince Briel, North Ridgeville, Ohio. Vince will show his newest replica kit, called the AltairPC, based on the famous MITS Altair computers of the mid-1970s. This kit follows his hugely successful Apple 1 replica. -- Rich Cini, Syosset, New York. Rich will show his own Altair replica, called the Altair32, which blends an emulator project and front panel kit. -- Bill Degnan, Landenberg, Pennsylvani. Bill will highlight his exclusive collection of Commodore B Series computer which were never produced. -- Mark Dodel, Stroudsberg, Pennsylvania: Mark will bring his thorough collection of IBM OS/2 computers including some very rare models. -- David Gesswein, Bethesda, Maryland. David will bring his impressive demonstration of a DEC PDP-8 minicomputer system. -- Jeffrey Katz, West Hartford, Connecticut. Jeff will also bring a DEC PDP-8 minicomputer system. -- Evan Koblentz, Springfield, New Jersey. Evan will exhibit a variety of portable computers from the 1970s and 1980s. The focus will be on the earliest laptops, luggables, and handhelds. -- Kelly Leavitt, Wantage, New Jersey. Kelly will show his comprehensive timeline of Tandy TRS-80 computers. -- Mike Loewen, State College, Pennsylvania. Mike will demonstrate how vintage computers can communicate with moden computers, by showing an Apple IIGS and Apple IIe and also a TRS-80 connected to a Linux server. -- Andy Meyer, Clark, New Jersey. Andy will show Atari 8-bit and 16-bit computers from the 1980s. -- Andrew Mollow, Syracuse, New York. Andy will exhibit a Canon Cat, which is the computer developed by Apple Macintosh innovator Jef Raskin. -- Frank O'Brien, West Windsor, New Jersey. Frank will demonstrate the very unique NASA Apollo Guidance Computer from the 1960s. -- Jim O'Brien, Quaktertown, Pennsylvania. Jim will show a timeline of nearly every Apple Computer model. -- Michael Pearson, West Chester, Pennsylvania. Michael will demonstrate early educational computers from 1960s and 1970s. -- Mike Ross, Mamaroneck, New York. Mike will demonstrate his collection of IBM minicomputers from the 1970s, including the System/32, /34, /36, and /38, and others. -- Jack Rubin, Wilmette, Illinois. Jack will show off his KIM-1 single-board computers and various accessories. -- Carlson Stevens, Silver Spring, Maryland. Carlson will demonstrate Japanese computer games and videogame consoles from the 1980s. *** The guest speakers *** There are six guest speakers for VCF East 3.0. They are: -- Steve Lukasik, 10:30 AM, "ARPA in the 1970s" -- Ray Borrill, 12:00 PM, "50 years in computers" -- Sol Libes, 1:45 PM, "The Origins of Personal Computers" -- David Ahl, 3:30 PM, "The total idiocy of starting a magazine..." -- Ray Holt, 5:00 PM, "A microprocesser before Intel" -- Sellam Ismail, 6:00 PM, "Vintage computer replicas and research" *** What else should you know? *** -- Visit http://www.vintage.org for more information about the Vintage Computer Festival. -- Visit http://www.midatlanticretro.org for more information about the MARCH organization. -- Visit http://www.infoage.org for more information about the Informaton Age Science and History Education Center. The primary spokesperson for VCF East 3.0 is MARCH president Evan Koblentz. Evan can be reached at evan at snarc.net or by telephone at 646-546-9999 in the afternoons or evenings, EST. Please do not call in the morning. :) From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 17 23:13:00 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 21:13:00 -0700 Subject: ibm bookmanager (.boo) files? In-Reply-To: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: At 8:51 PM -0500 4/17/06, Jay West wrote: >I have a ibm manual in bookmanager format (it's a .boo file). Would >anyone happen to have the software to import this, then put it back >out as pdf (preferred) or some other format that I can print from >cover to cover? If so, please contact me off list. I googled for >this and found some leads, but none of them still had the reader >software available for download. You managed to dredge up some antique memory, it seems to me that OS/2 had a reader for these, back in the 2.0 era. Though you might need a developer CD to find it... That's the part that really confuses me, where on earth would I have gotten a OS/2 developer CD 15 years ago... Oh, I remember now, because IBM was sending them to me for some reason... But why... OK, that's about the extent of what I can remember. Weird. I'd totally forgotten all of that, interesting what a word or two can bring back. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 18 00:13:06 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 00:13:06 -0500 Subject: ibm bookmanager (.boo) files? In-Reply-To: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <44447562.8020004@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > I have a ibm manual in bookmanager format (it's a .boo file). Would > anyone happen to have the software to import this, then put it back out > as pdf (preferred) or some other format that I can print from cover to > cover? If so, please contact me off list. I googled for this and found > some leads, but none of them still had the reader software available for > download. I know I downloaded and used a reader for Windows (maybe WFW?) a few months ago while working on a PS/2 Model 70. I'm not sure whether it was a VMware instance, a VirtualPC VM, or the DOS/WFW PC. I'll try to find it and email it to you. I don't think you're going to export it directly to PDF unless you've got Adobe Acrobat or something, but I do think you could print it directly from the reader. Doc From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Tue Apr 18 00:14:15 2006 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 06:14:15 +0100 Subject: very OT (Dr Who) was Re: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <200604172313.k3HNDh1e024255@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <000301c662a6$efc44b70$655b2c0a@w2kdell> > Also, the 10th > Doctor has been cast, and I've heard that the new series will > start showing in the UK any time now. > 1st episode was broadcast on Saturday. Spoilers withheld to avoid being murdered :-) Andy From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 18 00:20:39 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 22:20:39 -0700 Subject: ibm bookmanager (.boo) files? In-Reply-To: <44447562.8020004@mdrconsult.com> References: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <44447562.8020004@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200604172220390617.73B47E36@10.0.0.252> On 4/18/2006 at 12:13 AM Doc Shipley wrote: > I don't think you're going to export it directly to PDF unless you've >got Adobe Acrobat or something, but I do think you could print it >directly from the reader. I've got one of the developer CD's too. I suspect the reader might also work under the OS/2 subsystem for NT and 2K also. You can always install Ghostscript with the port reidirector on Windoze and print directly to a PDF without having to shell out for Acrobat. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 18 00:38:48 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 00:38:48 -0500 Subject: ibm bookmanager (.boo) files? In-Reply-To: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <44447B68.30204@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > I have a ibm manual in bookmanager format (it's a .boo file). Would > anyone happen to have the software to import this, then put it back out > as pdf (preferred) or some other format that I can print from cover to > cover? If so, please contact me off list. I googled for this and found > some leads, but none of them still had the reader software available for > download. I'll be damed. I did a little rummaging on ibm.com and lookie here! http://www-306.ibm.com/software/applications/office/bkmgr/softcopyread.html The new version for Linux is 128MB, the Windows version is 72MB. The older Library Reader for Windows is still available, though: http://www-1.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?doc=4000232&org=SW&rs=0 Good luck, Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 18 00:39:57 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 00:39:57 -0500 Subject: ibm bookmanager (.boo) files? In-Reply-To: <200604172220390617.73B47E36@10.0.0.252> References: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <44447562.8020004@mdrconsult.com> <200604172220390617.73B47E36@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44447BAD.9020902@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/18/2006 at 12:13 AM Doc Shipley wrote: > > >> I don't think you're going to export it directly to PDF unless you've >>got Adobe Acrobat or something, but I do think you could print it >>directly from the reader. > > > I've got one of the developer CD's too. I suspect the reader might also > work under the OS/2 subsystem for NT and 2K also. > > You can always install Ghostscript with the port reidirector on Windoze and > print directly to a PDF without having to shell out for Acrobat. Or buy a Mac.... I'll just get my hat and go now. :) Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 18 00:43:22 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 22:43:22 -0700 Subject: very OT (Dr Who) was Re: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <000301c662a6$efc44b70$655b2c0a@w2kdell> References: <000301c662a6$efc44b70$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: At 6:14 AM +0100 4/18/06, Andy Holt wrote: >1st episode was broadcast on Saturday. Spoilers withheld to avoid >being murdered :-) > >Andy Argh!!! How is the new Doctor so far? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 18 00:48:13 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:48:13 +1200 Subject: Decmate I In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/18/06, Richard wrote: > I would be interested in knowing this as well as where I could find an > RX02 set to hook up to my DECmate II :-). I've had a DECmate II for about 15 years... never had the internal RX02 controller. Given that the machine also has RX50, I think it'd be handy as a media-interchange platform. > Is the cabling just a straight run from the connector on the back of > the VT278 to the RX02? The DECmate I has a DC37 for its external drive connector. Whether in a pedestal or a table-top (MINC-style) enclosure, the RX02 has a DB25. There are two cables for the DECmate I... single DC37 to DB25 for one drive, or a Y-cable with one DC37 and *two* DB25s for a dual-drive unit (the pedestal has room for two complete RX02s). As mentioned recently, if you come across a rack-mount RX02, it's not difficult to wire up a Berg-40 to DB25 transition board (or find one from a DECmate pedestal or MINC drive enclosure). The DC37 pinouts should be in some DECmate docs on bitsavers, but I couldn't tell you the precise filename. Once you know the signals, the cable should be rather straightforward. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 18 00:59:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 22:59:48 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604172259480391.73D854C5@10.0.0.252> On 4/18/2006 at 1:05 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >That said, I think it is a pity there wasn't a later TTL 7 segment >decoder chip (say a 74LS547 or something) that did display 0-F as you >might expect. Well, the MC4039 used the Moto XC170 mask ROM as its core. The Moto data sheet for the 170 mentions that codes 1010-1111 could be reprogrammed to other characters. The 4039 had 1010=blank, 1011=dot, 1100=hyphen, 1101-1111=blank. The MC14495 also does the hex-to-7 segment decoding. Of course, one could always glom onto a few HP 5082-7340 displays... Cheers, Chuck From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Apr 18 07:01:00 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 07:01:00 -0500 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <44443F03.3080406@DakotaCom.Net> References: <20060417222142.YLOK8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20060418110202.HJDT8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > > I'm not promoting the Octal side (indeed I much prefer HEX), however > > Zilog didn't "opt" for anything - they based their design and instruction > > set decoding on the Intel 8080, which was laid out in a manner which > > made sense with "Octal". And Intel DIDN'T use xsddsdsx, they DID use > > xxdddsss - which made perfect sense from an Octal standpoint (which > > is why so many people promoted the use of Octal with it). > > But the Z80 isn't an 8085 nor is the 8085 an 8080. (granted, the > last two are much closer related than the first two). But the Z80 and the 8085 are both based on the 8080 architecture and instruction set - so much so that they will both run the vast majority of 8080 code. Is anyone really suggesting that it's an "accident" that the Z80 happens to run 8080 code ... or did Zilog begin with the 8080 instruction set definition (hence my point that they (Zilog) did not make the decision on the bit arrangements of the opcoodes). > And, there is no reason why xx ddd sss is any *better* than > xs dsd sdx or sd xxd ssd for an instruction encoding. *We* > used (split) octal because our MTOS supported hot patching > and it was convenient to "hand assemble" code patches on the > fly to fix bugs, etc. (gdb wasn't around for an 8080 in ~1976) Doesn't this suggest that xxdddsss actually was *better* - since you took advantage of the alignment with octal notation to make it easier to hand-assemble... Thats my whole point. The fact that the instruction set happens to align well with Octal notation is the main reason that a lot of people used it. It's interesting to note that almost all of the Intel docs are in hex, or binary notations - but Mits, Heath and several others thought that Octal was a better fit. As noted earlier, I happen to be from the "hex" camp ... but I don't think it's fair to dismiss the octal guys as "nuts" ... the use of octal on the 8080 did have some benefit, and there were a lot of people who went that route - to ignore or discount this does not present an accurate depiction of the time period. Now why some people chose octal for other processors, which didn't have an architectural slant toward 8 is more of a mystery to me.... Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Apr 18 07:21:04 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 07:21:04 -0500 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <200604171553460478.72524DF5@10.0.0.252> References: <20060417222142.YLOK8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20060418112206.HOSE8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > When I started to get into microprocessors, I wrote my own 8008 > cross-assembler--and I used hex on a CDC 6600 (which was, curiously, an > octal machine--60 bit words with 6 bit characters). It just made sense. I > never finished the 8008 machine I was building, but went for the 8080 when > it came out as the MITS box. I revised the 8008 assembler to assemble > 8080 codes. IIRC, my assembler was a one-pass job. There wasn't any good > reason to write a two-pass assembler, given the simplicity of the code I > was writing. I wrote my first 8080 assembler as a cross assembler on an IBM 360 mainframe (in fortran iirc)... took advantage of the "scads" of memory available, and wrote it as a single pass which kept the output in core and generated a "fixup" table to patch forward references at the end ... worked, but the listing did not show the byte values for forward referenced symbols correctly, so I abandoned the approach for my next 8080 assembler... Which was a two pass assembler resident on the 8080 machine. One of my first significant micro projects, this was a tiny little editor/assembler which I managed to squeeze into about 2000 bytes so I could put it into a 2716 (Hot new *BIG* EPROM!) - Worked only in hex (didn't support decimal - or octal) - even the editor line numbers were in hex. The mainframe cross assembler is completely gone ... I have no code or copies of any of it anymore. I thought the first resident assembler was also lost, however last year a hand-built machine from the time period came to me with the editor/assembler still in ROM. I've got more details up on the web site (look for "PIMPS"). I even put together an I/O definition file to let my Horizon/Z80 simulator match the I/O of the hand-built board so that you can actually run the thing (just in case anyone has a burning desire to experience come of my earliest code for micros). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Apr 18 08:03:33 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 06:03:33 -0700 Subject: very OT (Dr Who) was Re: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: References: <000301c662a6$efc44b70$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: <200604180603330607.0CCA4B7B@192.168.42.129> Hi, group, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 17-Apr-06 at 22:43 Zane H. Healy wrote: >At 6:14 AM +0100 4/18/06, Andy Holt wrote: >>1st episode was broadcast on Saturday. Spoilers withheld to avoid >>being murdered :-) >> >>Andy > >Argh!!! How is the new Doctor so far? A-frelling-MAZING! They couldn't have picked a better one in the form of Chris Eccleston if they'd tried! SciFi channel's been running the new series as well, and it is (so far) an outstanding tribute to the original. Watch for the episode 'Dalek.' If SF series could win Emmys, It'd win one in a heartbeat. Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Tue Apr 18 08:15:14 2006 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 08:15:14 -0500 Subject: another DECmate - looking for media Message-ID: <002401c662ea$21302330$176fa8c0@obie> I too just got a "new" DECmate/VT278. I?m a half-step ahead of Richard in that I have a set of RX02's to go with it but the donor hasn't yet been able to locate the software that he's sure he still has "somewhere". I've downloaded some telnet images of OS/278 but I don't have a PC running 8" drives to use to create the disks. Can anyone help by providing a physical copy of an RX02 OS/278 boot floppy? Please contact me directly if you can send a disk. In the meantime, if the docs remain elusive, I'll be glad to ring out my VT278 - RX78 cable. best, Jack -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.3/316 - Release Date: 4/17/2006 From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Apr 18 08:15:42 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 14:15:42 +0100 Subject: very OT (Dr Who) was Re: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <200604180603330607.0CCA4B7B@192.168.42.129> References: <000301c662a6$efc44b70$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <200604180603330607.0CCA4B7B@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <26c11a640604180615m3b3e357fx70389479c3edad83@mail.gmail.com> > A-frelling-MAZING! They couldn't have picked a better one in the form of Chris Eccleston if they'd tried! SciFi channel's been running the new series as well, and it is (so far) an outstanding tribute to the original. > > Watch for the episode 'Dalek.' If SF series could win Emmys, It'd win one in a heartbeat. > > Keep the peace(es). > > There is another new series with another new Dr.Who just started in the UK at the moment. http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/ Dan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 18 08:12:08 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 14:12:08 +0100 Subject: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <20060415152859.V36191@shell.lmi.net> References: <444003E8.6060402@srv.net> <444002DB.5010105@jetnet.ab.ca> <20060414135512.J92530@shell.lmi.net> <44411914.5070809@yahoo.co.uk> <20060415152859.V36191@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4444E5A8.7040509@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 15 Apr 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: >> That seems to be a *very* common thing. It's always sad to see the current >> generation basing their experiences on remakes of things rather than seeing >> the original(s) first. > > ... and when a remake is made, the original usually disappears forever. > For example, I really liked the original version of "The Italian Job" Yep, me too. I've not seen the remake, and have no intention of doing so. I think a lot of these things - HHGTG, Dr. Who, Italian Job etc. work *because* the effects are a bit tacky or the acting is caught in a time bubble, or the actors are unknown at the time of production. Soon as they're updated with modern computer effects, endless script rewrites and famous actors something gets lost in the process and the end result is indistinguishable from the sort of junk that Hollywood turns out - all glamour and famous names, but no real substance beneath the covers. Oh - other thing that *really* bugs me about remakes is when the current generation don't *realise* it's a remake and talk about how marvellous the underlying concept is - not realising that aspect was down to someone else's hard work years beforehand. Somehow, the way modern film companies hardly give any credit for the original idea really irritates me... :-( >> I meant to bring the HGTG books with me to the US and went and left them in >> England, grrr! > > Most of Douglas Adams' writings are pretty readily available here: > the five volumes of the trilogy, and the two Dirk Gently books. > Some of his writings, such as "Meaning of Liff" and "Last Chance to See" > are a little harder to find. If you need help finding them, just ask. Thanks for the offer - I'll wait I think; no sense owning two copies (and the ones in the UK have that nice well-used feel about them :) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 18 08:16:12 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 14:16:12 +0100 Subject: ibm bookmanager (.boo) files? In-Reply-To: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4444E69C.1020109@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > I have a ibm manual in bookmanager format (it's a .boo file). Hmm, wasn't there an archive format that used the same extension? I went through a brief period in the early 90's of collecting archive tools (no idea why!) and I'm sure I remember a boo format... cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 18 09:15:03 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 09:15:03 -0500 Subject: ibm bookmanager (.boo) files? References: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP><44447562.8020004@mdrconsult.com> <200604172220390617.73B47E36@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <00e801c662f2$82787d60$6500a8c0@BILLING> It was written.... > You can always install Ghostscript with the port reidirector on Windoze > and > print directly to a PDF without having to shell out for Acrobat. I have a licensed copy of DocuCom PDF, it's very reasonably priced (I think it was around $30) and it acts like a Windoze printer. Just print to it and a dialog box comes up asking what file to save the pdf as. It has a fair number of options and supports a few bells & whistles. So, as long as there is a reader that runs on XP I can print the manual to pdf (and paper). The manual is for the 3174 establishment controller Config C. I have a hardcopy manual for Config B, which is a VERY different thing. Jay From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 18 10:46:42 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 08:46:42 -0700 Subject: very OT (Dr Who) was Re: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <200604180603330607.0CCA4B7B@192.168.42.129> References: <000301c662a6$efc44b70$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <200604180603330607.0CCA4B7B@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: At 6:03 AM -0700 4/18/06, Bruce Lane wrote: >On 17-Apr-06 at 22:43 Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Argh!!! How is the new Doctor so far? > > A-frelling-MAZING! They couldn't have picked a better one in >the form of Chris Eccleston if they'd tried! SciFi channel's been >running the new series as well, and it is (so far) an outstanding >tribute to the original. > > Watch for the episode 'Dalek.' If SF series could win Emmys, >It'd win one in a heartbeat. > > Keep the peace(es). I couldn't agree more, but I was asking about the new Doctor, David Tennant :^) Billie Piper is still playing Rose Tylor, and I think her Mom and Mickey will have appearances as well. I will say this much, David Tennant doesn't look like he'll make as bad of a Doctor as I'd originally thought. The first picture I saw made him look about like a teenager. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 18 10:50:22 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 10:50:22 -0500 Subject: very OT (Dr Who) was Re: there is hope for tiny code! References: <000301c662a6$efc44b70$655b2c0a@w2kdell><200604180603330607.0CCA4B7B@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <004c01c662ff$ce045210$6500a8c0@BILLING> TOO off topic From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 18 11:14:28 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 09:14:28 -0700 Subject: ibm bookmanager (.boo) files? In-Reply-To: <00e801c662f2$82787d60$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <44447562.8020004@mdrconsult.com> <200604172220390617.73B47E36@10.0.0.252> <00e801c662f2$82787d60$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200604180914280986.760B1577@10.0.0.252> On 4/18/2006 at 9:15 AM Jay West wrote: >I have a licensed copy of DocuCom PDF, it's very reasonably priced (I >think it was around $30) and it acts like a Windoze printer. Just print to it >and a dialog box comes up asking what file to save the pdf as. It has a fair >number of options and supports a few bells & whistles. Somewhat OT: A tidbit about Ghostscript and its port redirector: There are several music services on the web that sell works for printing online by using a custom program to do the printing. All of these programs as far as I know do not allow printing to a file (i.e. if you select a printer on Windoze that has its port output to a file, you're told that it isn't allowed). However, the GS port redirector escapes detection, so when I purchase and download a musical work, I have it preserved on my PC as a .PDF which can be printed and used as a backup. I don't know if there are any other "pay for print" services on the web, but I suspect that there might be. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 18 12:04:21 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:04:21 -0400 Subject: ibm bookmanager (.boo) files? In-Reply-To: <44447562.8020004@mdrconsult.com> References: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <44447562.8020004@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <44451C15.50201@gmail.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > Jay West wrote: >> I have a ibm manual in bookmanager format (it's a .boo file). Would >> anyone happen to have the software to import this, then put it back >> out as pdf (preferred) or some other format that I can print from >> cover to cover? If so, please contact me off list. I googled for this >> and found some leads, but none of them still had the reader software >> available for download. > > I know I downloaded and used a reader for Windows (maybe WFW?) a few > months ago while working on a PS/2 Model 70. I'm not sure whether it > was a VMware instance, a VirtualPC VM, or the DOS/WFW PC. I'll try to > find it and email it to you. > > I don't think you're going to export it directly to PDF unless you've > got Adobe Acrobat or something, but I do think you could print it > directly from the reader. The Windows viewer is a current product. It shouldn't be too hard to find. Peace... Sridhar From jthecman at netscape.net Tue Apr 18 12:28:08 2006 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:28:08 -0400 Subject: How much to charge for classic computer rental Message-ID: <8C83124981A76AE-281C-12A42@mblkn-m09.sysops.aol.com> I have a very large US computer company wanting to rent a classic computer for 12 months to help fight a lawsuit they are in. They have offered me $50 a month to hold and use the computer for the next 12 months. what is a fair price? This could save them millions from the lawsuit. Thanks, the computer is about 15 years old (on topic). John ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 18 12:39:22 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:39:22 -0600 Subject: How much to charge for classic computer rental In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:28:08 -0400. <8C83124981A76AE-281C-12A42@mblkn-m09.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: In article <8C83124981A76AE-281C-12A42 at mblkn-m09.sysops.aol.com>, jthecman at netscape.net writes: > I have a very large US computer company wanting to rent a classic > computer fo r 12 months to help fight a lawsuit they are in. They have > offered me $50 a mo nth to hold and use the computer for the next > 12 months. what is a fair price? > This could save them millions from the lawsuit. Thanks, the computer > is about 15 years old (on topic). John It all depends on what the computer is... $50/mo is what I would charge to rent a CBM 8032. If I were renting my PDP-11/03, I would charge probably $250/mo, provided I didn't have to transport the disk drives. If I were renting a PDP-11/70, I would charge like $1000/mo. None of those prices would include the shipping to/from, which I would make them pay for as well. Basically the bigger the computer and the harder it is to transport, the more you should charge them. Also figure in the rarity factor in case it dies while in their hands and it has to be repaired/replaced. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From whdawson at nidhog.net Tue Apr 18 12:59:57 2006 From: whdawson at nidhog.net (Bill Dawson) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:59:57 -0400 Subject: Storage Works RAID 410 for DEC Alpha Server. Free, pickup only. Last post before I part it out. Message-ID: Firstly, this is located in Washington, PA 15301. I'm close to the I-70 / I-79 junction, near Pittsburgh, so if you're traveling to the VCF East from anywhere west of here... ----------------------------------------------------- Storage Works RAID 410 for DEC Alpha Server, SWXRA-YJ ----------------------------------------------------- All of the 4.29gb hard drives have been removed but the caddies are present. Here's a list of the contents of this HSZ70 DEC RAID Subsystem with 2 controllers: SW300 Door Assy 70-31470-01 Rev A02 Power Module SWXBF-SD, 70-29764-01, quantity 1 Power Module BA35X-HA, 70-29764-01, quantity 6 Dual speed blower BA35X-MD, 70-29761-03, quantity 8 4.29gb "caddy and connector only" SWXD3-SE, 70-31499-02, quantity 15 32mb R/W cache module 54-22910-001 A06, 5022909-01-H01 SMS1 RAID array logic controller SWXRC-04, 70-31457-02 B02 SCSI/DSSI Controller 54-23369-01 with i960 PCMCIA Firmware card labeled SWKS HSZ40 B/C MSC PCRM Card V3.1-0 BG-QHD30-50.A01 EMU (Environmental Monitoring Unit) 54-23354-01, 70-31459-01 A05 Wide Ultra Diff. SCSI-3 6 inch cable BN21L-0B Wide Ultra Diff. SCSI-3 5 meter cable BN21K-05 Wide Ultra Diff. SCSI-3 TRI LINK SCSI-3 connector H885-AA Rev A02 Wide Ultra Diff. SCSI-3 Datamate DM2050-01-68D connector Only if there is no interest in someone taking this entire unit will I consider parting it out for spares to classiccmp list members. I would like to see this box gone ASAP but I can hold onto it a while longer if I have a guaranteed pick up date or time frame. Regards, Bill Dawson From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Apr 18 12:56:07 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 18:56:07 +0100 Subject: RL drive lubrication In-Reply-To: <340.2c55d72.31748bb1@aol.com> References: <340.2c55d72.31748bb1@aol.com> Message-ID: <44452837.7010001@gjcp.net> Useddec at aol.com wrote: > If you need any RL or RK parts, including positioners, I have them. > > Paul > You're just doing that on purpose now ;-) Gordon. From fritz_chwolka at t-online.de Tue Apr 18 13:47:44 2006 From: fritz_chwolka at t-online.de (Fritz Chwolka) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:47:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: ibm bookmanager (.boo) files? In-Reply-To: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1FVvEr-0b8ybA0@fwd32.sul.t-online.de> On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 20:51:52 -0500, Jay West wrote: >I have a ibm manual in bookmanager format (it's a .boo file). Would anyone >happen to have the software to import this, then put it back out as pdf >(preferred) or some other format that I can print from cover to cover? If >so, please contact me off list. I googled for this and found some leads, but >none of them still had the reader software available for download. > >Thanks! > >Jay West > I use OS/2 Warpserver and the new ECS and have all the old OS/2 versions since V1.3 and velieve that I will be able to help. Please mail me. Mit freundlichen Gruessen Fritz Chwolka From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Apr 18 13:56:17 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:56:17 -0700 Subject: How much to charge for classic computer rental In-Reply-To: References: <8C83124981A76AE-281C-12A42@mblkn-m09.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: This is about standard movie rates if they are not going to be physically using the computer but using it for display purposes. If they are going to be operating the machine I would ask double that, if not more. Also consider what happens if they damage it. We rented a big copier to a movie once and they dropped it off the forklift. Their insurance paid and we did OK but it is something to consider. Paxton From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 18 14:16:10 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:16:10 -0600 Subject: How much to charge for classic computer rental In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:56:17 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "Paxton Hoag" writes: > This is about standard movie rates if they are not going to be > physically using the computer but using it for display purposes. If > they are going to be operating the machine I would ask double that, if > not more. You mean $50/mo is standard movie rental rate? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Apr 18 14:20:09 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:20:09 -0700 Subject: How much to charge for classic computer rental In-Reply-To: References: <8C83124981A76AE-281C-12A42@mblkn-m09.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <44453BE9.2000701@msm.umr.edu> Paxton Hoag wrote: >This is about standard movie rates if they are not going to be >physically using the computer but using it for display purposes. If >they are going to be operating the machine I would ask double that, if >not more. > >Also consider what happens if they damage it. We rented a big copier >to a movie once and they dropped it off the forklift. Their insurance >paid and we did OK but it is something to consider. > >Paxton > > > > consider if it is involved in a lawsuit whether the opposing party will have access to the unit, and what that will be as well. I would make sure you are held harmless from any damages to the value of the property (use those words) and state what that value is, so you can get the same shiny item to replace it (if it exists) or reasonable compensation if it is harmed. and state who determines it is harmed. a scratch to a panel may reduce the value or it may not, etc. Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 18 14:22:28 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ibm bookmanager (.boo) files? In-Reply-To: <44447BAD.9020902@mdrconsult.com> References: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <44447562.8020004@mdrconsult.com> <200604172220390617.73B47E36@10.0.0.252> <44447BAD.9020902@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20060418122116.G82475@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Doc Shipley wrote: > Or buy a Mac.... > I'll just get my hat and go now. :) Mac has support for .boo files now? Cool! I thought that the only thing new was the capability of running PC viruses. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 18 14:36:28 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 14:36:28 -0500 Subject: ibm bookmanager (.boo) files? In-Reply-To: <20060418122116.G82475@shell.lmi.net> References: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <44447562.8020004@mdrconsult.com> <200604172220390617.73B47E36@10.0.0.252> <44447BAD.9020902@mdrconsult.com> <20060418122116.G82475@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <44453FBC.4080602@mdrconsult.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> Or buy a Mac.... >> I'll just get my hat and go now. :) > > > Mac has support for .boo files now? With a little tweaking, the newest Linux Java version will run in OS X. > Cool! > I thought that the only thing new was the capability of running > PC viruses. You mean the virus named "Windows"? Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 18 16:37:58 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 14:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MAC ibm bookmanager (.boo) files? In-Reply-To: <44453FBC.4080602@mdrconsult.com> References: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <44447562.8020004@mdrconsult.com> <200604172220390617.73B47E36@10.0.0.252> <44447BAD.9020902@mdrconsult.com> <20060418122116.G82475@shell.lmi.net> <44453FBC.4080602@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20060418143607.B88463@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Doc Shipley wrote: > > I thought that the only thing new was the capability of running > > PC viruses. > You mean the virus named "Windows"? And everything else that is compatible with the Microsoft Outlook Virus Transfer Protocol -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 18 16:53:19 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 22:53:19 +0100 Subject: ibm bookmanager (.boo) files? In-Reply-To: <44453FBC.4080602@mdrconsult.com> References: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <44447562.8020004@mdrconsult.com> <200604172220390617.73B47E36@10.0.0.252> <44447BAD.9020902@mdrconsult.com> <20060418122116.G82475@shell.lmi.net> <44453FBC.4080602@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <44455FCF.7080701@yahoo.co.uk> Doc Shipley wrote: >> Cool! >> I thought that the only thing new was the capability of running >> PC viruses. > > You mean the virus named "Windows"? Ahh, but it doesn't replicate itself - Windows is more the binary equivalent of a petri dish... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 18 17:09:21 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 23:09:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <44444554.2010202@DakotaCom.Net> from "Don Y" at Apr 17, 6 06:48:04 pm Message-ID: > What was more amusing was two different versions -- "with tails" and > without! :> There's also the 'hooked 7' (segments a,b,c,f using the conventional names), used by some Japanese manufacturers. AFAIK no TTL decoder ever generated that one. In the mid 70's there were several circuits in the UK magazines to turn 7 segment code back into BCD, so you could use clock/calculator/DVM chips with built-in display drivers in other logic circuits. Most of those encoder circuits, of course, made liveral use of the 'don't care states'. Some of said circuits would handle both tailed and tail-less 6's and 9's, but IIRC most of them failed on hooked 7's. > > > That said, I think it is a pity there wasn't a later TTL 7 segment > > decoder chip (say a 74LS547 or something) that did display 0-F as you > > might expect. > > *Something* does this -- though I may have been driving LCD's There was a Fairchild one, I forget the number. > at the time (thus CMOS parts). But, I remember a 7441 (though > what I used it for I am unsure... :< ) 1-of-10 decoder, commonly used to drive nixie tubes. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 18 17:32:17 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 15:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ibm bookmanager (.boo) files? In-Reply-To: <44455FCF.7080701@yahoo.co.uk> References: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <44447562.8020004@mdrconsult.com> <200604172220390617.73B47E36@10.0.0.252> <44447BAD.9020902@mdrconsult.com> <20060418122116.G82475@shell.lmi.net> <44453FBC.4080602@mdrconsult.com> <44455FCF.7080701@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20060418153039.R91427@shell.lmi.net> > > You mean the virus named "Windows"? On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > Ahh, but it doesn't replicate itself - Windows is more the binary equivalent > of a petri dish... The fact that Windoze is a "Trojan Horse", rather than a "Virus" is certainly important, but not particularly relevant right now :-) From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue Apr 18 17:51:48 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C. H. Dickman) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 18:51:48 -0400 Subject: another DECmate - looking for media In-Reply-To: <002401c662ea$21302330$176fa8c0@obie> References: <002401c662ea$21302330$176fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: <44456D84.6010406@nktelco.net> The RX02 format is specific to DEC and the RX02 and it can't be read or written by anything other than an RX02 or something designed for that task. The RX01 format is straight IBM 3470, but the RX02 has sector header fields in FM and data fields in a modified MFM format. I have never seen anybody claim it was even possible to read/write an RX02 using a PC disk controller. This is from research I have done. I am sure somebody can supply more details. I don't have any RX02 drives, but I have built a little interface and written some software that lets a PC running Linux or NetBSD act like an RX02. I have used it with RT-11 on a PDP-11/40 and microPDP-11/73 and with OS/8 V3D on a PDP-8/e. I have some details here: http://www.chd.dyndns.org/rx02/ -chuck From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 18 18:04:19 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 16:04:19 -0700 Subject: Wang Video Controller Diagnostics Utility Disk Message-ID: <44457073.874AC419@rain.org> Among things I am finding is the following: PC 200/300 MEGA/MDA Video Controoler Diag. Utility Disk Rev. 2850 704-5133 (C) 1988, Wang Labs., Inc. The files on the disk are: . 07-18-05 3:16p . .. 07-18-05 3:16p .. DIAGUTIL EXE 35,688 05-04-88 12:37a DIAGUTIL.EXE DIAGUTIL MSG 3,197 05-04-88 12:03a DIAGUTIL.MSG EGAVIDEO EXE 13,262 05-06-88 3:51p EGAVIDEO.EXE EGAVIDEO WDM 14,977 05-06-88 3:41p EGAVIDEO.WDM EXECDIAG EXE 753 05-04-88 12:39a EXECDIAG.EXE HIRES COM 2,944 07-01-87 3:27p HIRES.COM IBMBIO COM 22,486 05-04-88 12:39a IBMBIO.COM IBMDOS COM 30,128 07-24-87 12:00a IBMDOS.COM WEGA EXE 25,728 01-22-87 11:42a WEGA.EXE 9 file(s) 149,163 bytes 2 dir(s) 21,699.92 MB free If anyone needs a copy of the disk contents, let me know and I'll email a copy of the contents in zip format (runs about 76K.) From cbajpai at comcast.net Tue Apr 18 18:06:32 2006 From: cbajpai at comcast.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 19:06:32 -0400 Subject: How much to charge for classic computer rental In-Reply-To: <8C83124981A76AE-281C-12A42@mblkn-m09.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <200604182318.k3INIXoU033223@keith.ezwind.net> Depends on the rarity...If they want an Apple-1 then $50 is too low! -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jthecman at netscape.net Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 1:28 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: How much to charge for classic computer rental I have a very large US computer company wanting to rent a classic computer for 12 months to help fight a lawsuit they are in. They have offered me $50 a month to hold and use the computer for the next 12 months. what is a fair price? This could save them millions from the lawsuit. Thanks, the computer is about 15 years old (on topic). John ___________________________________________________ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Apr 18 19:46:35 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:46:35 -0400 Subject: another DECmate - looking for media In-Reply-To: <44456D84.6010406@nktelco.net> References: <002401c662ea$21302330$176fa8c0@obie> <44456D84.6010406@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <200604182046.36244.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 18 April 2006 18:51, C. H. Dickman wrote: > The RX02 format is specific to DEC and the RX02 and it can't be read or > written by anything other than an RX02 or something designed for that > task. The RX01 format is straight IBM 3470, but the RX02 has sector > header fields in FM and data fields in a modified MFM format. I have > never seen anybody claim it was even possible to read/write an RX02 > using a PC disk controller. > > This is from research I have done. I am sure somebody can supply more > details. You could always pick up a catweasel controller, shove it into your PC, and write disks that way, also. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 18 19:48:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:48:38 -0700 Subject: How much to charge for classic computer rental In-Reply-To: <200604182318.k3INIXoU033223@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200604182318.k3INIXoU033223@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200604181748380327.77E1CFDE@10.0.0.252> Allow an insider's viewpoint on this matter. I assume that this is a civil suit (i.e. tort action) and not a criminal case. Let's assume that the system you're furnishing is somewhat rare--less common than a NEC Bungo, but more common than say, a working IBM 1401. Further, let's assume that said system is central to the plaintiff's case or to the defense. And that you're one of the very very few people who can supply the system--the legal guys can't simply find another by browsing ePay for a week. If that's an accurate assessment of the situation, then the sky's the limit. $1000/month would not be out of line. You may be asked to keep the system in operating order (you can request a retainer for your time and expenses) and you may ask that the legal folks insure the item for its replacement cost (which can be considerable if it's rare). And, it's fair to ask if you will be deposed or if you'll be asked to testify. If so, set your rates up front--in writing. It's very unpleasant being subpoenaed and not getting paid for your time. Now, if this is a plain-Jane IBM PC-XT, obviously the pool of sellers is larger and your advantage isn't all that great. You may have to lower your price. But $500/month would not be unusual. And cases of this sort can run for years--you can easily spend 2 years with motions and depositions and recitals and be no closer to a court date when you first started. I've served as an expert on a case of this sort. The lawyers really don't care what something costs--it just gets passed on to the client. Heck, the junior partner who made the 5 minute call to you probably passed on a charge of $250 to the client. This ain't a movie, folks. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 18 19:51:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:51:03 -0700 Subject: another DECmate - looking for media In-Reply-To: <44456D84.6010406@nktelco.net> References: <002401c662ea$21302330$176fa8c0@obie> <44456D84.6010406@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <200604181751030702.77E407B7@10.0.0.252> On 4/18/2006 at 6:51 PM C. H. Dickman wrote: >This is from research I have done. I am sure somebody can supply more >details. Yup, single-density address headers and double-density data, with substitutions made for MFM patterns that can be confused with FM address marks. A Catweasel will handle these very nicely on a PC. Cheers, Chuck From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Apr 18 20:01:36 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 18:01:36 -0700 Subject: very OT (Dr Who) was Re: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <444538BB.7020106@gmail.com> References: <000301c662a6$efc44b70$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <200604180603330607.0CCA4B7B@192.168.42.129> <444538BB.7020106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200604181801360025.0F5BB248@192.168.42.129> Hi, group, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 18-Apr-06 at 15:06 Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Bruce Lane wrote: >> Hi, group, >> >> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** >> >> On 17-Apr-06 at 22:43 Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >>> At 6:14 AM +0100 4/18/06, Andy Holt wrote: >>>> 1st episode was broadcast on Saturday. Spoilers withheld to avoid >>>> being murdered :-) >>>> >>>> Andy >>> Argh!!! How is the new Doctor so far? >> >> A-frelling-MAZING! They couldn't have picked a better one in the form >of Chris Eccleston if they'd tried! SciFi channel's been running the new >series as well, and it is (so far) an outstanding tribute to the original. >> >> Watch for the episode 'Dalek.' If SF series could win Emmys, It'd win >one in a heartbeat. >> >> Keep the peace(es). > >Those episodes aired in Britain last year. They're talking about season >two. I figured that out. SciFi's running Season One at the moment. I expect they'll start in on #2 later in the year. Thanks... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 18 21:06:09 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:06:09 -0600 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44459B11.6070903@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >>What was more amusing was two different versions -- "with tails" and >>without! :> > > > There's also the 'hooked 7' (segments a,b,c,f using the conventional > names), used by some Japanese manufacturers. AFAIK no TTL decoder ever > generated that one. http://www.mitt-eget.com/ Several Calculator Fonts here. > In the mid 70's there were several circuits in the UK magazines to turn 7 > segment code back into BCD, so you could use clock/calculator/DVM chips > with built-in display drivers in other logic circuits. Most of those > encoder circuits, of course, made liveral use of the 'don't care states'. > Some of said circuits would handle both tailed and tail-less 6's and 9's, > but IIRC most of them failed on hooked 7's. But I want 9 segment Displays! :( Ben alias woodelf From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Apr 18 21:24:07 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 22:24:07 -0400 Subject: ibm bookmanager (.boo) files? In-Reply-To: References: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200604182224.07847.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 18 April 2006 12:13 am, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:51 PM -0500 4/17/06, Jay West wrote: > >I have a ibm manual in bookmanager format (it's a .boo file). Would > >anyone happen to have the software to import this, then put it back > >out as pdf (preferred) or some other format that I can print from > >cover to cover? If so, please contact me off list. I googled for > >this and found some leads, but none of them still had the reader > >software available for download. > > You managed to dredge up some antique memory, it seems to me that > OS/2 had a reader for these, back in the 2.0 era. Though you might > need a developer CD to find it... I never ran OS/2 other than Warp 3, the later version with the networking stuff added in, and I think there was a way to deal with those in there as well... Speaking of which, I have a copy of Warp 3, the earlier version, still in shrink wrap, if anybody's interested in taking it off my hands. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 18 23:45:10 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 22:45:10 -0600 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? Message-ID: OK, what's the earliest graphics display system held by any of you collectors? "graphics display system" is anything that creates a graphics image with a display: calligraphic, storage tube, plasma, raster, etc. Block character graphics don't count (or I would include my Commodore CBM 8032 and all the stupid terminals :). My timeline goes like this, based on year introduced: 196?: Evans & Sutherland PS-300 terminal 197?: Tektronix 4010 terminal 1974: Tektronix 4014 terminal 1977: Hewlett-Packard 2648A terminal Hewlett-Packard 1350A graphics translator 1979: Atari 800 microcomputer 1981: IBM PC CGA microcomputer 1983: Televideo TS-803 microcomputer 1984: Megatek Whizzard 1645 terminal Diser Eve workstation 1984?: Tektronix 4105 terminal 1985: Sun 3/110 workstation 1986: Hewlett-Packard 2397A terminal 1988: NCD 14p X terminal 1989: Evans & Sutherland ESV workstation 1991: Evans & Sutherland Freedom accelerator 1993: SGI Indigo^2 workstation []? - I don't know for certain, can you fill in the year? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 18 23:53:27 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 22:53:27 -0600 Subject: Dueling HP's: 1350A vs 1351A Message-ID: What is the difference between these two? HP 1350A graphics translator HP 1351A graphics generator The 1350A has a product page on hpmuseum.net, but the 1351A has some docs there that seem to describe the same product. However, one is a "translator" and the other is a "generator". Can anyone tell me how they are different? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From steerex at mindspring.com Sun Apr 16 07:57:34 2006 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 08:57:34 -0400 Subject: Back up 9 Track to CD Message-ID: <01C66133.D737C2E0@MAGGIE> Hey guys, I've got a bunch of old 9 track tapes, including bootable tapes for a variety of systems, that I'd like to "backup". The tapes vary from MPE install, HPUX install, and misc DATA tapes (multiple formats). Some of the tapes are pretty old and I really need to archive them. I think CD's are gonna be around for a while so, that seems to be the most reasonable medium. I know, I know... CD's don't last forever. That's a different topic and not something I can worry about right now. I've also got a pile of spare 9GB HD's. I suppose I could dump the images there as well. With multiple copy's on CD and on HD's. The data should be safe. There is a 9 track attached to my HPUX 10.20 box so, reading and writing the tapes is no problem. The HPUX box does not have a CD burner directly attached although, I can FTP files to a WINDOWS box and burn CD's there. So the question is: Can I just DD the tapes to a file and stick the file on CD/HD then recreate the tape from the CD when needed? NOTE: Some of the tapes span multiple volumes. Is this gonna be a problem. TIA, SteveRob From Steven_R_Hutchins at raytheon.com Mon Apr 17 07:09:24 2006 From: Steven_R_Hutchins at raytheon.com (Steven_R_Hutchins at raytheon.com) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 08:09:24 -0400 Subject: Awesome ARPAnet documentary In-Reply-To: <200604031438.32444.kyle@lodge.glasgownet.com> Message-ID: I had trouble with the link (firewall, maybe) , I'll take you up on posting a copy for download. Kyle Gordon Sent by: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org 04/03/2006 09:38 AM Please respond to "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" To cctalk at classiccmp.org cc Subject Re: Awesome ARPAnet documentary There's a copy at http://h316.hachti.de/download/ComputerNetworksTheH.avi if anyone still needs it. If that fails, then I can stick a copy up elsewhere for folks. Kyle On Monday 03 April 2006 12:52, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > The movie is an AVI...perfectly playable on any *nix system capable of > xine.. > > -rw-r--r-- 1 waisun waisun 122941852 Mar 21 10:34 ComputerNetworksTheH.avi > > I don't have any online servers to distribute this, but if anyone can > handle this, contact me offlist... > > On 4/3/06, Simon Fryer wrote: > > All, > > > > On 4/3/06, Bert Thomas wrote: > > > Bert Thomas wrote: > > > > Chris Halarewich wrote: > > > >> try this link it might work better > > > >> > > > >> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7426343190324622223&q=arpan > > > >>et > > > > > > Did anyone save the movie? It appears to be gone... :-( > > > > Yes. There is a copy somewhere on my work PC.. When I find where the > > google video player has hidden it, I'll dump it to some http space. > > > > Simon > > > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to > > philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is > > the utility of the final product." > > Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh -- Kyle Gordon kyle at lodge.glasgownet.com http://lodge.glasgownet.com From trag at io.com Sun Apr 16 11:52:15 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 11:52:15 -0500 Subject: Help ID oddball SCSI controller In-Reply-To: <200604151228.k3FCSSih092934@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604151228.k3FCSSih092934@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 08:54:02 -0700 >From: Don Y >Card is full length. PCI. Appears to be made by IBM >(FRU 76H6875). Has three AIC-7880's on it connected to >External connector appears to be LVD or SE (bummer, I >was hoping to find a HVD in this box of goodies...) > >I'll assume it's a RAID controller. I don't know anything about any RAID features, but the AIC-7880 supports Ultra-Wide SCSI, but not LVD. So assuming the firmware also supports it, you should have UW and earlier support on that card. The 7880 is the chip used on the Adaptec 2940UW and the 3940UW, but the 3940UW is just a DEC PCI-PCI bridge with two 7880 chips hanging off of it--basically two 2940UWs on the same card with a PPB to make it fit in one PCI slot. Some of the very late model Adaptec 2940UWs used a later chip (such as the Dual and the Pro models) but the vast bulk of the 2940UWs used the 7880. Jeff Walther From trygve.thue at broadpark.no Sun Apr 16 11:53:15 2006 From: trygve.thue at broadpark.no (Trygve Thue) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 18:53:15 +0200 Subject: Pro-350 anyone? Message-ID: <004101c66176$41484b90$eeeea8c0@GUL> Hi ! I have several Pro 350 and a Pro 380 mostly with RD53 . I also have a Vax Statin 2000 with TP and extra Harddrive. This has two RD54 installed. The sad thing is a non working Decna-K in one ofthe Pro's . I therefor am on the lookout to buy a Decna-K card. Please give me a note if you can help . Thanks Trygve Thue St.Halvardsvei 41 5052 Bergen Norway From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 19 01:26:35 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 23:26:35 -0700 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604182326350573.791734B2@10.0.0.252> On 4/18/2006 at 10:45 PM Richard wrote: >OK, what's the earliest graphics display system held by any of you >collectors? > >"graphics display system" is anything that creates a graphics image >with a display: calligraphic, storage tube, plasma, raster, etc. >Block character graphics don't count (or I would include my Commodore >CBM 8032 and all the stupid terminals :). Graphics displays are very old and I suspect that they go back to the very early digital computer days in the form of a simple x-y vector display on an oscilloscope. Analog computer use may go back even further. I suspect that as a display technology, rather than as a printing technology, graphics displays precede alphanumeric displays by a good long time. Certainly pre-war process control systems could drive x-y chart recorders--and what's a closed-loop process controller but an analog computer? Cheers, Chuck From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Apr 19 01:42:32 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 23:42:32 -0700 Subject: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) Message-ID: <4445DBD8.8070301@msm.umr.edu> I finally got a few photos of the HP 1000 that I bought a couple of months ago. any opinions on what I have, and what steps should be taken before trying to do anything with it? It appeared to have had a Tandberg tape drive attached at some time. the cables connected to the back of each card have all been cut by the scrapper that had it before I did. There sounds to be at least one small part (screw, nut, broken plastic) rattling around inside the front area, so it will have to be opened no matter what. There was an empty slot a the top of this, so I may be out anything useful, it may be a junk spare cage with a bunch of I/O if I had to guess. At least I didn't out a lot for it. I have to admit I was seduced by the switches and lights that appeared to be on the front panel, and an obvious need to fill some space in my pile with something. It appears to have a battery pack that was the rear panel. Due to the construction, I wonder if it was added by a system integrator. thanks Jim http://jwstephens.com/hp-1000/page_01.htm From Useddec at aol.com Wed Apr 19 02:19:37 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 03:19:37 EDT Subject: Pro-350 anyone? Message-ID: <36a.2bd57b3.31773e89@aol.com> Hi, I think I have a have a 350 and a 380, and some extra boards. Do you have an actual part #? Are you interested in selling/trading the RD54's? Thanks, Paul From Useddec at aol.com Wed Apr 19 02:31:15 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 03:31:15 EDT Subject: Pro-350 anyone? Message-ID: <396.da950c.31774143@aol.com> Sorry, This was supposed to be off list. Paul From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Apr 19 03:33:25 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 01:33:25 -0700 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? References: Message-ID: <4445F5D6.BF2186F0@cs.ubc.ca> Richard wrote: > > OK, what's the earliest graphics display system held by any of you > collectors? > > "graphics display system" is anything that creates a graphics image > with a display: calligraphic, storage tube, plasma, raster, etc. > Block character graphics don't count (or I would include my Commodore > CBM 8032 and all the stupid terminals :). > > My timeline goes like this, based on year introduced: > > 196?: Evans & Sutherland PS-300 terminal > 197?: Tektronix 4010 terminal > 1974: Tektronix 4014 terminal > 1977: Hewlett-Packard 2648A terminal > Hewlett-Packard 1350A graphics translator > 1979: Atari 800 microcomputer > 1981: IBM PC CGA microcomputer > 1983: Televideo TS-803 microcomputer > 1984: Megatek Whizzard 1645 terminal > Diser Eve workstation > 1984?: Tektronix 4105 terminal > 1985: Sun 3/110 workstation > 1986: Hewlett-Packard 2397A terminal > 1988: NCD 14p X terminal > 1989: Evans & Sutherland ESV workstation > 1991: Evans & Sutherland Freedom accelerator > 1993: SGI Indigo^2 workstation Well, it's not like I have either of these in my possession, but perhaps they count for additions to the list: - early 50s: Whirlwind had a large CRT display attached to it, which would become the graphics displays of the SAGE system. Other machines of the era had CRTs attached for things like monitoring memory accesses / machine state, but I suspect the Whirlwind display was the first CRT display for actual graphical presentation of programmed output. - circa 1980: The Comtal Colour Image Processing System (another piece of equipment I haven't seen mentioned in many years). A desk sized unit with a giant wire-wrapped backplane and CCD memory. Had an RGB monitor for display, keyboard and trackball, and also connected to a host computer. I don't know too many details but it could do various transformations and manipulations on raster-based images that it held in the CCD memory, in real-time. Kind of like the predecessor to the video-graphics-chip sitting between the main processor and the screen of today's computers. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Apr 19 04:02:51 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 02:02:51 -0700 Subject: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) In-Reply-To: <4445DBD8.8070301@msm.umr.edu> References: <4445DBD8.8070301@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4445FCBB.6090901@pacbell.net> jim stephens wrote: > There sounds to be at least one small part (screw, nut, broken plastic) > rattling around inside the front area, so it will have to be opened no > matter what. There should be another card cage on the front side, behind the front panel. Your CPU and memory cards would go there. --Bill From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 19 08:18:08 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 07:18:08 -0600 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 18 Apr 2006 23:26:35 -0700. <200604182326350573.791734B2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200604182326350573.791734B2 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Graphics displays are very old and I suspect that they go back to the very > early digital computer days in the form of a simple x-y vector display on > an oscilloscope. VT-11 (I think) and HP 1350A/1351A drove X-Y displays, yes. But I think you guys missed the point...I wasn't asking for what is the earliest known graphics display output device; I already know about Whirlwind and SAGE. I know I'm not the only one with graphical display output devices in my collection. What's the oldest graphical display output device in your collection? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Wed Apr 19 08:23:19 2006 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:23:19 +0200 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <44444095.2050000@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200604161331350572.6CA9C541@10.0.0.252> <200604170952100806.71073B8C@10.0.0.252> <4443CAE1.50206@DakotaCom.Net> <200604171659.31132.rtellason@blazenet.net> <44444095.2050000@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <444639C7.2030705@ais.fraunhofer.de> Don Y schrieb: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> Me, I wish they'd made those common TTL 7-segment decoder/driver >> chips display something more like hex when you got into codes past 9... > > Some do. I recall feeling "giddy" when I had a design with The 9368 has proper hex decoding of the pseudo tetrades - but those days it was almost impossible to locate, compared to the common 7447 types. Eventually, I programmed 74188s for that purpose, after a short period (as a pupil) where I made a diode matrix decoder based on a 74154 - this soldered well on breadboards. Holger From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 19 08:31:58 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 09:31:58 -0400 Subject: Help ID oddball SCSI controller In-Reply-To: References: <200604151228.k3FCSSih092934@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <44463BCE.3080300@gmail.com> Jeff Walther wrote: >> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 08:54:02 -0700 >> From: Don Y > >> Card is full length. PCI. Appears to be made by IBM >> (FRU 76H6875). Has three AIC-7880's on it connected to > >> External connector appears to be LVD or SE (bummer, I >> was hoping to find a HVD in this box of goodies...) >> >> I'll assume it's a RAID controller. > > I don't know anything about any RAID features, but the AIC-7880 supports > Ultra-Wide SCSI, but not LVD. So assuming the firmware also supports > it, you should have UW and earlier support on that card. > > The 7880 is the chip used on the Adaptec 2940UW and the 3940UW, but the > 3940UW is just a DEC PCI-PCI bridge with two 7880 chips hanging off of > it--basically two 2940UWs on the same card with a PPB to make it fit in > one PCI slot. > > Some of the very late model Adaptec 2940UWs used a later chip (such as > the Dual and the Pro models) but the vast bulk of the 2940UWs used the > 7880. I believe this card is an IBM ServeRAID. Peace... Sridhar From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Apr 19 08:50:41 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 09:50:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > What's the oldest graphical display output device in your collection? I have a early/mid 1950s Mk 5 Mod 5 Target Designator System, made for the U S Navy. This device is a "normal" radar repeater (in laymans temrs - scope with the circular sweeping trace), but has four independent cursors under joystick control for designating targets for the gun crews. Essentially, if you wanted to blast someone, you took your joystick (assigned to one of the gun directors) and moved your cursor over the victim. The cursor is a half circle with a dot. Push the button on the joystick, and the signal is sent to the director and its computer. The director responds by drawing another half circle (not dot, and the other 180 degree arc), and moves it so it joins your cursor. Whe you see your half circle had turned into a full circle, the hot metal starts flying. The Mk 5 supports four joysticks for four directors, so four targets could be engaged independently using a time shared system. It consists of the repeater with the joysticks, a video generator cabinet with a zillion tubes, and a coordinate convertor cabinet with more tubes and lots of synchros and mechanical bits to do all the polar to XY conversion. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Wed Apr 19 08:55:53 2006 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:55:53 +0200 (MEST) Subject: Thanks to all: 8820 now working Message-ID: <1524.1145454953@www041.gmx.net> Sat, 15 Apr 2006, "Bruce Lane" wrote: > My thanks to all who offered assistance on my issues with the 'tech > special' Trak Systems 8820 GPS station clock. The unit was successfully > repaired, and has been working for nearly a full week without any > further signs of problems. > > For the curious: The problem turned out to be that one of the > firmware EPROMs developed a broken internal bond wire on the output- > enable lead. This caused the chip to appear completely blank to both the > Unisite programmer and the Trak device. My contact at Trak was kind > enough to send over image files to do a fresh set of EPROMs. > > The only other adjustment I found myself making was a fine-tune > alignment on the 10MHz ovenized oscillator, to bring its center > frequency back to a point where the reference circuitry could discipline > it down to full accuracy. That was also accomplished without incident, > and I now have a second Stratum-1 level clock and frequency standard for > my lab. > > The moral of the story: EPROMs can fail too! Just not in the way we > might expect. ;-) Congratulations to getting this thing back into functional state. I wish you a good time and many years of satisfying operation for your device. Incidentally, I've been having a bit of fun with a MEINBERG GPS166 Satellite Controlled Clock lately - it had been set aside as defective at the computing center of Erlangen University and I happened to get it for the asking, together with its bullet-shaped "radome" antenna/amplifier. When I finally built myself a coaxial cable to connect the two (SMA <-> N-Type), I had a working setup! But after a relocation a bit later, I got some smelly smoke and an "antenna fault" error when I powered it on. Turned out to be a small cylindrical choke in the shielded RF box which had gone open circuit - possibly involved with supplying power to the antenna amplifier. I checked the coaxial cable for shorts, couldn't find one at that time, replaced the choke and had the next one burn through. I disassembled and reassembled the N connector very carefully, replaced the choke once again and have been operating the clock without problems since then. It too can give out fixed and adjustable frequency pulses - along with second and minute signals, which you could amplify adequately to drive daughter clocks like that falling-leaf wall clock I have (needs a 24V pulse every minute). The special plus of the unit I have is the so-called "Erlangener Firmware" which was custom-written for Erlangen University. The usual variety only used the serial port for giving the time - either in intervals, when a ? was entered or when a pulse occurred on a logic input - but this one also puts out the geographical location, so one could even use it for a navigation system, in theory at least. So long, -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Echte DSL-Flatrate dauerhaft f?r 0,- Euro*! "Feel free" mit GMX DSL! http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl From allain at panix.com Wed Apr 19 08:56:21 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 09:56:21 -0400 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? References: Message-ID: <006601c663b9$0a831460$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > What's the oldest graphical display output device in your collection? Uuuuh, a fountain pen? OK Richard, You've hit a nerve there. I've Used many such systems, but wasn't sufficiently grabby enough to go and get them when and if they were scrapped. I won a $5 bid on a Applicon CAD system and wimped out on that one, it was ~2,500 lb and 1000 miles away And the Calma auction of Apollos in ~1988. Also wimped out on paying $200 for an IBM 5100 in 1990. Ouch. I've never seen a PS300. Which VCF would you go to if you brought it. West, East, Germany, ? In general, I wonder if anyone on list has an Adage vector display system? I bow to Tom Uban and his Imlac, that was the 1st "real" system I used, pre-grad. Owned, inexact list, including dates: 1972: DEC PDP11/10 + LPS + O'Scope, unconfigured 1977: Hewlett-Packard 2648A terminal 1980: Atari 800 microcomputer, others 1981: HP 85 1981: IBM PC CGA microcomputer, others 1984: Tektronix 4107 terminal 1987: MicroVAX GPX 1988: DECWindow Station 3500, others 1993: Indigo^2 Note that 1991 or so marked the explosion of Windowing everywhere, so only the specialized machines in that period need apply. John A. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Apr 19 09:20:36 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 07:20:36 -0700 Subject: TSX sources, distribution, etc. In-Reply-To: <001d01c6636f$4ef2c310$8e00a8c0@badddog> References: <001d01c6636f$4ef2c310$8e00a8c0@badddog> Message-ID: <200604190720.36844.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Stuart, On Tuesday 18 April 2006 22:08, you wrote: > It has been many months since you promised to release the TSX archives. How > about sending or putting online for download exactly what you received? > Isn't that what you told the author at S&H what you were going to do? The source listings are already up on bitsavers - and one of my DCL (DEC Computer Lunch) buddies here in SV has written a special OCR program that is scanning the listings to re-create the original MACRO sources of TSX. So there's plenty going on (no commitments on that totally happening, timing, etc.). > This is ridiculous. Should I approach S&H myself, on behalf of all of the > other interested parties? "Ridiculous" is in the mind of the beholder. Yes, I could have taken the time to put up the TSX website as opposed to obtaining every RL02 pack and SMD drive I could from S&H, preserving the contents, etc. But I figured that "exercise", which took weeks of my time was more important than "releasing" TSX code. I'm required under my agreement with S&H to have a website where I can "log" and "verify" to a reasonable extent that only hobbiests will be downloading the system, etc. I am committed to getting TSX into the hands of the "folks" - but I estimate that it will take a week or so of my time - contiguous - to do it. That hasn't happened yet - but I promise it will. Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 19 09:43:28 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 09:43:28 Subject: Evans & Sutherland was: Re: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060419094328.3aa7a406@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:45 PM 4/18/06 -0600, you wrote: >OK, what's the earliest graphics display system held by any of you >collectors? > >"graphics display system" is anything that creates a graphics image >with a display: calligraphic, storage tube, plasma, raster, etc. >Block character graphics don't count (or I would include my Commodore >CBM 8032 and all the stupid terminals :). > >My timeline goes like this, based on year introduced: > > 196?: Evans & Sutherland PS-300 terminal Speaking of Evans & Sutherland, I was out scrounging a couple of weeks ago and I found one of their keyboards. I know their stuff is scarce so I picked it up and brought it home with me. I don't know what it's for and I didn't see any other E&S stuff. Anybody want it? Joe > 197?: Tektronix 4010 terminal > 1974: Tektronix 4014 terminal > 1977: Hewlett-Packard 2648A terminal > Hewlett-Packard 1350A graphics translator > 1979: Atari 800 microcomputer > 1981: IBM PC CGA microcomputer > 1983: Televideo TS-803 microcomputer > 1984: Megatek Whizzard 1645 terminal > Diser Eve workstation > 1984?: Tektronix 4105 terminal > 1985: Sun 3/110 workstation > 1986: Hewlett-Packard 2397A terminal > 1988: NCD 14p X terminal > 1989: Evans & Sutherland ESV workstation > 1991: Evans & Sutherland Freedom accelerator > 1993: SGI Indigo^2 workstation > > []? - I don't know for certain, can you fill in the year? > >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 19 09:45:08 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 09:45:08 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060419094508.199f8198@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:45 PM 4/18/06 -0600, you wrote: >OK, what's the earliest graphics display system held by any of you >collectors? tektronix 4051 computer with 6800 CPU and storage tube CRT. I don't know the year but I'd guess about 1975. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 19 10:11:10 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 10:11:10 Subject: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) In-Reply-To: <4445DBD8.8070301@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060419101110.119f5b6e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:42 PM 4/18/06 -0700, you wrote: >I finally got a few photos of the HP 1000 that I bought a couple of >months ago. > >any opinions on what I have, and what steps should be taken before trying >to do anything with it? I just check it over and then power it up if I don't see any obvious problems. However Tony D advocates removing all the cards, building a dummy load and testing the power supply under load. I, for one, am not that paranoid. YMMV. The one problem that I've had on several 1000s is that after it's been run a while the EMI filter cap in the power supply blows. I've had about three of them do this. At least two machines keep on running normally after it happend! The other I powered off instantly. This cap blows after the machines where running anywhere from an hour to several days. > >It appeared to have had a Tandberg tape drive attached at some time. > >the cables connected to the back of each card have all been cut by the >scrapper that had it before I did. Assholes! > >There sounds to be at least one small part (screw, nut, broken plastic) >rattling around inside the front area, so it will have to be opened no >matter what. If you don't have the key, you can carefuly pry it open. The latch is a simple aluminium strap and it will bend easily. After you get it open you can remove the strap and straighten it out and reuse it. I open and close mine so often that I turned the lock 90d and left it unlocked and then installed some velcro to hold the panel closed. Under the front panel is a removeable plate that covers the CPU and memory cards. BTW I've been told not to run the 1000 sithout the plate since it controls the cooling air flow. One of the good things about the 1000s is that the scrappers frequently don't realize that there's cards under the front panel so those cards often don't get removed or monkeyed with. > >There was an empty slot a the top of this, so I may be out anything useful, >it may be a junk spare cage with a bunch of I/O if I had to guess. At least >I didn't out a lot for it. I have to admit I was seduced by the switches >and lights that appeared to be on the front panel, and an obvious need to >fill some space in my pile with something. > >It appears to have a battery pack that was the rear panel. Due to the >construction, I wonder if it was added by a system integrator. Nope it's an option from HP. In case you haven't already found it, Al K has a good number of the manusls this machine on his website. Joe > >thanks >Jim > >http://jwstephens.com/hp-1000/page_01.htm > From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 19 09:38:48 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 10:38:48 -0400 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <006601c663b9$0a831460$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <006601c663b9$0a831460$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <44464B78.6060707@gmail.com> John Allain wrote: >> What's the oldest graphical display output device in your collection? > > Uuuuh, a fountain pen? I have a collection of real lead pencils from the eighteenth century along with a couple of (unfortunately broken) vintage quill pens. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 19 10:05:24 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 09:05:24 -0600 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <44464B78.6060707@gmail.com> References: <006601c663b9$0a831460$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <44464B78.6060707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <444651B4.8070300@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > I have a collection of real lead pencils from the eighteenth century > along with a couple of (unfortunately broken) vintage quill pens. > Well so much for you being a great WRITER. :) > Peace... Sridhar > > . > From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Apr 19 10:45:22 2006 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 08:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Richard wrote: > My timeline goes like this, based on year introduced: > > 196?: Evans & Sutherland PS-300 terminal The PS-300 was introduced in 1979, I believe. Definitely not the 1960's. E&S was founded in 1968, and their first product was called the LDS1 (1969). I've never seen one. I had an Imlac (since given away) that was intro'd around 1968. Nice stand-alone vector graphics machine. -- Doug From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 19 10:48:36 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 08:48:36 -0700 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <200604190649.k3J6nVFs041268@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604190649.k3J6nVFs041268@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <44465BD4.2090202@sbcglobal.net> Tektronix introduced it's T4002 graphics terminal in 1969 and the 4010 in 1972 (my 4010 has boards copyrighted in 1971 but the 4010 is not in the 1971 catalog). The Tek 4012 & 4013 are in the '73 catalog and the Tek 4014 & 4015 are in the '74 catalog. Bob Message: 25 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 22:45:10 -0600 From: Richard Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: OK, what's the earliest graphics display system held by any of you collectors? "graphics display system" is anything that creates a graphics image with a display: calligraphic, storage tube, plasma, raster, etc. Block character graphics don't count (or I would include my Commodore CBM 8032 and all the stupid terminals :) . My timeline goes like this, based on year introduced: 196?: Evans & Sutherland PS-300 terminal 197?: Tektronix 4010 terminal 1974: Tektronix 4014 terminal 1977: Hewlett-Packard 2648A terminal Hewlett-Packard 1350A graphics translator 1979: Atari 800 microcomputer 1981: IBM PC CGA microcomputer 1983: Televideo TS-803 microcomputer 1984: Megatek Whizzard 1645 terminal Diser Eve workstation 1984?: Tektronix 4105 terminal 1985: Sun 3/110 workstation 1986: Hewlett-Packard 2397A terminal 1988: NCD 14p X terminal 1989: Evans & Sutherland ESV workstation 1991: Evans & Sutherland Freedom accelerator 1993: SGI Indigo2 workstation []? - I don't know for certain, can you fill in the year? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 19 10:47:29 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:47:29 +0100 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44465B91.3090108@yahoo.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: > The Mk 5 supports four joysticks for four directors, so four targets could > be engaged independently using a time shared system. It consists of the > repeater with the joysticks, a video generator cabinet with a zillion > tubes, and a coordinate convertor cabinet with more tubes and lots of > synchros and mechanical bits to do all the polar to XY conversion. That sounds incredibly cool - any chance of any photos? (You know me - graphics systems and mechanical systems are my main interests, so that thing sounds ideal :-) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 19 10:57:02 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:57:02 +0100 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44465DCE.50907@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > OK, what's the earliest graphics display system held by any of you > collectors? OK, related question - what's the most interesting graphics display system that anyone has in their collection? Either interesting due to concepts used, or interesting due to the spec considering the age of the device etc. For instance, some of the late 80's / early 90's hardware from the likes of SGI are pretty impressive in abilities and architecture - using concepts that have only hit the mainstream in the last few years - but of course they're by no means 'earliest'... I wish I was at Bletchley right now so that I could get some specs on the Bell and Howell / de Graffe video presentation system that we were given a while back (and that I mentioned on this list). It's all totally bespoke hardware for doing video work, with a user interface that for some reason reminds me of early versions of Deluxe Paint on the Amiga. No less than 8 processors in it - seven of those are custom and dedicated to graphics processing work, the other being a lowly Z80 for housekeeping. All from a mid-1980's system. Oh, and it's the only machine I've seen that uses rock in the construction - for stability, the base of the main module is solid granite :-) (cost was IIRC 20 thousand pounds in the mid-80's, so I suppose they could justify blowing a bit extra on frills like that...) cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 19 11:21:30 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 11:21:30 -0500 Subject: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) References: <4445DBD8.8070301@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <006501c663cd$51ddbe50$6500a8c0@BILLING> Jim wrote... >I finally got a few photos of the HP 1000 that I bought a couple of months >ago. Another HP'er on the list, awesome :D > any opinions on what I have, and what steps should be taken before trying > to do anything with it? Yeah, do not turn it on before opening up the power supply. The power supply is extremely trivial to remove. Undo the molex connectors up front (or unhook the 4 or so wires if it's that version). Slide the two catches in front to unlatch. There may be two or four screws in back. Then slide the whole thing out the rear. Open the top plate (about 10 screws). Remove all the foam, and replace it! This power supply has a piece of foam glued to the top coverplate that is almost always turned to mush. It gets in everything in the power supply and the power supply doesn't take well to that from a heat perspective. Blow it all out thoroughly. I usually remove solids by hand, then vacuum, then compressed air. Then make sure to glue another piece of foam to the top cover, because if you don't, the wrong pressure at the right time can short the metal top to the cards inside - or worse, let the cards inside come loose. > It appeared to have had a Tandberg tape drive attached at some time. In all my years of focusing on HP 2100/21MX M-E-F boxes, I've only come across ONE of those tandberg tape interfaces. I'd love to know what drive they went to - I believe the tandberg interface was 3rd party. I would imagine (given "Tandberg") that we're talking QIC-525 or something like that? I have no clue, as I said I've only seen one interface. I stuck in on the shelf in case I ever found said drive :) > the cables connected to the back of each card have all been cut by the > scrapper that had it before I did. Of course, take those cables off completely. Cutting could have created shorts - before power up. Keep the hoods though, they are hard to find and quite useful. > There sounds to be at least one small part (screw, nut, broken plastic) > rattling around inside the front area, so it will have to be opened no > matter what. The memory card cage is in front, behind the front panel. Should be a key in front (or two quickrelease tabs on older M series) that allows the front panel to swing down (or come off if tabs). You'll want to reseat the cards in front and back, and also the ribbon cables between the cards in front. Those memory cables are known for being finnicky. If you can't find the floating part.... there is one screw on the rear towards the bottom. Take that screw out, and the whole bottom panel will slide back an inch or so, then off. You'll find the part sitting there likely. > There was an empty slot a the top of this, so I may be out anything > useful, > it may be a junk spare cage with a bunch of I/O if I had to guess. No, that's not a problem at all. If you were using software that worked in polled mode, empty slots between cards were fine (and common). But if you were running anything that used interrupts, there could be no empty slots between cards (there was also a jumper card available, I have truckloads of those). But more to your point - after the last card, open slots are OK no matter what... plus, the interrupt chain starts at the bottom, so open slots at the top are likely OK. > At least > I didn't out a lot for it. I have to admit I was seduced by the switches > and lights that appeared to be on the front panel, and an obvious need to > fill some space in my pile with something. I like the front panel on the 21MX MEF boxes (yours is a 2109B). I definitely far prefer the panel on the 2100A/S, but others will disagree (Bob S.). And when I compare those two - I'm talking from the perspective of entering long programs, not just setting a few registers here and there. > It appears to have a battery pack that was the rear panel. Due to the > construction, I wonder if it was added by a system integrator. I have several of the standard HP battery backup options. Yours looks to be factory. If not, it's a very very close design. The gel packs in it likely don't hold a charge anymore, and are expensive to repair. You'll be wanting a battery eliminator plug I bet... the system will not come up without either a battery eliminator plug or a real battery. > http://jwstephens.com/hp-1000/page_01.htm Nice Por... er... Pics :) Looks like you have an HS term board ... that's a good all around board as far as compatability with most terminals (non-HP). However, it's a PIG as far as load on the system. It's the board required for TSB console though. The BACI boards are much kinder to the system. The microcircuit boards are sweet... I could always use a few more of those myself - if they are the nicer C variety. They are a general purpose interface board used for a bajillion different things, including a lot of custom stuff. After all, HP's were designed by engineers for engineers, and typically not for general purpose computing. More often than not, process control, ATF, etc. I'd be curious (if I were you) just what microcode roms were on that FAB board under your cpu card there :) The slides you have there are the ones I've generally seen come from military use. Nice box! Oh - something important. Judging by the front panel pencil marks, this system was booted from the device at IO select code 16. That would also be the slot that your tandberg interface was in. So, most likely, this system booted from that cartridge tape drive. I suggest you preserve the boot roms for this machine! You likely have a special boot rom just for that tandberg interface card which may well shed light on how that card and drive worked. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 19 11:22:30 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 11:22:30 -0500 Subject: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) References: <4445DBD8.8070301@msm.umr.edu> <4445FCBB.6090901@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <006a01c663cd$75359850$6500a8c0@BILLING> William wrote... > There should be another card cage on the front side, behind the front > panel. Your CPU and memory cards would go there. Memory cards, yes. CPU cards, no. There is only one cpu card and it isn't in any card cage. It's the big board at the bottom that the two upright backplane cards plug in to. Jay From kth at srv.net Wed Apr 19 11:39:18 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 10:39:18 -0600 Subject: Back up 9 Track to CD In-Reply-To: <01C66133.D737C2E0@MAGGIE> References: <01C66133.D737C2E0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <444667B6.6090506@srv.net> Steve Robertson wrote: >Hey guys, > >I've got a bunch of old 9 track tapes, including bootable tapes for a variety of systems, that I'd like to "backup". The tapes vary from MPE install, HPUX install, and misc DATA tapes (multiple formats). Some of the tapes are pretty old and I really need to archive them. I think CD's are gonna be around for a while so, that seems to be the most reasonable medium. > >I know, I know... CD's don't last forever. That's a different topic and not something I can worry about right now. > > You can periodically duplicate the CD's, or just make the data available on the NET. Hopefully then, if you lose your copy, you can beg for a copy from someone who copied it from you. >I've also got a pile of spare 9GB HD's. I suppose I could dump the images there as well. With multiple copy's on CD and on HD's. The data should be safe. > >There is a 9 track attached to my HPUX 10.20 box so, reading and writing the tapes is no problem. The HPUX box does not have a CD burner directly attached although, I can FTP files to a WINDOWS box and burn CD's there. > >So the question is: > >Can I just DD the tapes to a file and stick the file on CD/HD then recreate the tape from the CD when needed? > > Nope. You need to keep track of the block sizes as you read the tape. Also you need to keep track of the EOT markers. dd doesn't do this. You should be able to find a program on the net that will read the data into a .tap (or similar) file (anyone have a link?). This program really should be added to the simh tools, if it isn't already. I've written a version in basic for VMS, but that isn't going to help you very much with unix. >NOTE: Some of the tapes span multiple volumes. Is this gonna be a problem. > > > Shouldn't be. Recreating on an actual tape may be a problem, due to the in-exact lengths of the physical tapes. Copying to a tape of the same length may not work due to numerous factors (less stretch, larger gap size, slightly shorter physical tape length, etc.) >TIA, > >SteveRob > > From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Apr 19 11:29:32 2006 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 09:29:32 -0700 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:45 AM -0700 4/19/06, Doug Salot wrote: >On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Richard wrote: > >> My timeline goes like this, based on year introduced: >> >> 196?: Evans & Sutherland PS-300 terminal > >The PS-300 was introduced in 1979, I believe. Definitely not the 1960's. I can confirm that we (JPL Computer Graphics Lab) used a PS-2 in mid '70s to mid '80s time frame. Doug's recollection feels about right to me, though I don't have documentation to support it. Just for fun, here's a link to a scan of a proof picture of our lab at the time. From left to right: Sylvie Rueff, Jim Blinn (yes, that one) Jeff Goldsmith, me (much younger then). Behind Sylvie is our slide and Polaroid printer, Jim is pointing at the frame buffer (probably a Ramtek or similar) display, a Teleray T1051 terminal can be seen behind him, as well as the keyboard and knobs and switches for the PS-2, the PS-2 and it's monitor are behind the glass in the machine room behind us. John From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 19 11:33:11 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 11:33:11 -0500 Subject: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) References: <3.0.6.16.20060419101110.119f5b6e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <007601c663ce$f35bf2a0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Joe wrote... > I just check it over and then power it up if I don't see any obvious > problems. However Tony D advocates removing all the cards, building a > dummy > load and testing the power supply under load. I, for one, am not that > paranoid. YMMV. HP's truly are built like tanks (speaking of the 2100A/S and 21MX M/E/F line) - both electronically and mechanically. I don't worry about powering them up as much as other brands of boxes. One caution - see my previous email - do NOT power one up without checking out the inside of the powersupply to remove the foam and replace it with new foam. If you don't, your system may run fine once in a while for short durations. Keep it on for a long time or expect real use out of it and you may be disappointed unless you take that step. > The one problem that I've had on several 1000s is that > after it's been run a while the EMI filter cap in the power supply blows. > I've had about three of them do this. At least two machines keep on > running > normally after it happend! The other I powered off instantly. This cap > blows after the machines where running anywhere from an hour to several > days. Odd... I've had truckloads of 21MX's come through here (literally) that I've restored... none had this failure mode. Perhaps I was lucky, perhaps it's a regional thing. Good to keep an eye out for I guess. >>the cables connected to the back of each card have all been cut by the >>scrapper that had it before I did. > > Assholes! Yeah, I'd really love to know what drive that interface went to, and what the cable was pinned like. At least you have half the pinout in your stub of a cable :) > If you don't have the key, you can carefuly pry it open. The latch is a > simple aluminium strap and it will bend easily. After you get it open you > can remove the strap and straighten it out and reuse it. Yikes... please don't do this. Metal only bends so many times.... but besides the metal fatigue issue, more important is that removing the strap that the latch connects to takes all of about 30 seconds. It is connected to a bolt on the left side of the machine that is accessed from the back of the left rackmount flange. Just undo the bolt, door opens and metal strap falls. > I open and close > mine so often that I turned the lock 90d and left it unlocked and then > installed some velcro to hold the panel closed. One thing not built like a tank is the hinges at the bottom of the front panel. If your door bounces often, you will find those hinges bend, then the door doesn't quite seat right. > Under the front panel is a > removeable plate that covers the CPU and memory cards. BTW I've been told > not to run the 1000 sithout the plate since it controls the cooling air > flow. I suspect the cooling duct is misguided. With the door closed, there's little difference in airflow. But there's a much better reason to keep this panel in place. This panel is specifically designed to press tightly on the ribbon cables that jumper between the memory controller and the memory cards in the front card cage. This cable is notoriously finnicky. That is the main reason for this front panel. > In case you haven't already found it, Al K has a good number of the > manusls this machine on his website. Yup, Al has a great HP section :) If you want a large group of the HP 21MX files, I'd prefer to send you a CD instead of you downloading 40 bajillion gigs from the server :) Or... use another mirror ;) Jay West From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Apr 19 11:34:04 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:34:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <44465DCE.50907@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > Oh, and it's > the only machine I've seen that uses rock in the construction - for stability, > the base of the main module is solid granite :-) (cost was IIRC 20 thousand > pounds in the mid-80's, so I suppose they could justify blowing a bit extra on > frills like that...) Some Computervision CAD systems from the late 1970s or so have decorative bits of wood on the racks - strips of Oak, I think. It really did not look all that bad. Inside were mostly PDP-11/34 systems, I think. Not many people remember CV anymore. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 19 11:38:55 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 09:38:55 -0700 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <44465DCE.50907@yahoo.co.uk> References: <44465DCE.50907@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200604190938550765.7B47D110@10.0.0.252> On 4/19/2006 at 4:57 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >OK, related question - what's the most interesting graphics display system >that anyone has in their collection? Either interesting due to concepts >used, or interesting due to the spec considering the age of the device etc. Didn't someone have a scheme for hooking up an Etch-A-Sketch to a system? This would probably be back in the S-100 days, but I seem to recall a magazine article about it. Now THAT's interesting... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 19 11:52:21 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 09:52:21 -0700 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604190952210544.7B541CA2@10.0.0.252> Somewhere, back in my memory, I recall that CDC had a fairly impressive large-screen color display graphics facility in the late 60's. Was it the 250? I recall seeing demos, but the IGS folks tended to keep to themselves, so I didn't learn much about it. At some point during the early 70's, IGS was transfered from Sunnyvale to Arden Hills and lost many personnel. I don't know what became of the project. But in your list of graphics display terminals, you should definitely include the original Plato plasma-screen terminal. I suspect that someone on the list still has one. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 19 11:56:28 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 10:56:28 -0600 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 19 Apr 2006 09:56:21 -0400. <006601c663b9$0a831460$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: In article <006601c663b9$0a831460$5f25fea9 at ibm23xhr06>, "John Allain" writes: > > What's the oldest graphical display output device in your collection? > > Uuuuh, a fountain pen? Its not a display, doesn't count :-). > You've hit a nerve there. I've Used many such systems, > but wasn't sufficiently grabby enough to go and get them > when and if they were scrapped. I won a $5 bid on a > Applicon CAD system and wimped out on that one, *ouch* That would have been sweet, but the logistics are obviously a challenge. > And the Calma auction of Apollos in ~1988. *also ouch* Apollos seem pretty rare now! > Also wimped out on paying $200 for an IBM 5100 in > 1990. Ouch. What's a 5100? > I've never seen a PS300. Which VCF would you go to > if you brought it. West, East, Germany, ? West, that's within driving distance at least (I'm in Salt Lake City). > In general, I wonder if anyone on list has an Adage vector > display system? I bow to Tom Uban and his Imlac, that > was the 1st "real" system I used, pre-grad. I love starting threads like this because I always learn something. I didn't know about the Imlac! Now I'll add it to the list of systems I need to learn more about and hopefully acquire. > Owned, inexact list, including dates: > 1972: DEC PDP11/10 + LPS + O'Scope, unconfigured What's LPS? > Note that 1991 or so marked the explosion of Windowing > everywhere, so only the specialized machines in that period > need apply. Agreed. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From allain at panix.com Wed Apr 19 12:17:32 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 13:17:32 -0400 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? References: Message-ID: <001101c663d5$25574ce0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> >> Also wimped out on paying $200 for an IBM 5100 ... > What's a 5100? IBM's first PC, maybe 1977, about $20,000 then. Had BASIC and APL if you were lucky. Only the APL had graphics, a huge incentive to learn APL. >> 1972: DEC PDP11/10 + LPS + O'Scope, unconfigured > What's LPS? Laboratory Peripheral System. As large as a small PDP11. A collection of I/O's including DACs and ADCs, with some other knobs and switches. John A. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 19 12:30:54 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 10:30:54 -0700 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? Message-ID: > I can confirm that we (JPL Computer Graphics Lab) used a PS-2 in mid > '70s to mid '80s time frame. Doug's recollection feels about right > to me, though I don't have documentation to support it. I have a Genesco GCT-3000 ('76-ish..) which was on an Interdata 8/32 at JPL that supposedly was used to display decommutated Viking Orbiter image data telemetry. The other displays from the 70's that I have are a VT-11 with 19" display, a Megatek Whizzard from Bob Shannon, and a unused 4014 still in the original box. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 19 12:34:42 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 10:34:42 -0700 Subject: Back up 9 Track to CD Message-ID: > The tapes vary from MPE install Just to put the word out.. I'm looking for MPE from the 70's and very early 80's. Something that could run on Series II or III... It's likely what Kevin has will be later than that. > Can I just DD the tapes to a file No. You will lose all the tape blocking/file mark information. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 19 12:37:24 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 10:37:24 -0700 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? Message-ID: <51CE4C1A-F031-4BDF-829C-156F77403DA8@bitsavers.org> > I recall that CDC had a fairly impressive > large-screen color display graphics facility in the late 60's. Was it the > 250? 274 large round tube attached to a CDC 1700. sort of like the IBM 2250/1130 combo you may even see a flyer an info on it over at bitsavers soon :-) From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 19 12:41:16 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 10:41:16 -0700 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? Message-ID: > What's LPS? Laboratory Peripheral System (for Unibus PDP-11's) THE MINC was sort of similar for the LSI-11. I think all DEC machines up 'til the VAX had some X-Y point plot display option. There were also attached display processors, like the DEC 340. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Apr 19 12:48:56 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 10:48:56 -0700 Subject: Back up 9 Track to CD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44467808.8080102@msm.umr.edu> Al Kossow wrote: > > The tapes vary from MPE install > > Just to put the word out.. I'm looking for MPE from the 70's and > very early 80's. Something that could run on Series II or III... > > It's likely what Kevin has will be later than that. > > > Can I just DD the tapes to a file > > No. You will lose all the tape blocking/file mark information. > > > I can post a program that I ran on solaris that creates backups of 1/2 inch tapes, and includes knowlege of either dec (3 file marks at eot) or other (2 file marks). I have archived all of my tapes with this program. I also may write a program to convert them to Hercules AWS format as well. This program can be used with any 1/2 inch tape unit, as it has the logic to read the block size of each block and preserves each block boundary. I'll work up documentation and try to get a page with it up on my web pages. Jim From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 19 13:39:14 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 13:39:14 Subject: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) In-Reply-To: <006501c663cd$51ddbe50$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <4445DBD8.8070301@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060419133914.10e76954@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:21 AM 4/19/06 -0500, Jay wrote: Those memory cables are known for being finnicky. That's good point. A lot of the problems that I've had with the 1000s are due to poor contacts on those cards. I've found that if the contacts are dry it's very hard to seat the cards. Now I take a paper towel and dampen it with WD-40 and wipe the contacts good with it. It helps clean the contacts and it leaves a light film of kerosene (the primary ingredient of WD-40) on the contacts and makes it much easier to seat and remove the circuit boards. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 19 13:47:58 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 13:47:58 Subject: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) In-Reply-To: <007601c663ce$f35bf2a0$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <3.0.6.16.20060419101110.119f5b6e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060419134758.32ff543e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:33 AM 4/19/06 -0500, you wrote: >Joe wrote... >> I just check it over and then power it up if I don't see any obvious >> problems. However Tony D advocates removing all the cards, building a >> dummy >> load and testing the power supply under load. I, for one, am not that >> paranoid. YMMV. >HP's truly are built like tanks (speaking of the 2100A/S and 21MX M/E/F >line) - both electronically and mechanically. I don't worry about powering >them up as much as other brands of boxes. One caution - see my previous >email - do NOT power one up without checking out the inside of the >powersupply to remove the foam and replace it with new foam. If you don't, >your system may run fine once in a while for short durations. Keep it on for >a long time or expect real use out of it and you may be disappointed unless >you take that step. That's interesting. I don't think I've seen a problem with the foam in any of the 1000s that I have. Perhaps it's due to the difference in climate. Still it's a good diea to check. > >> The one problem that I've had on several 1000s is that >> after it's been run a while the EMI filter cap in the power supply blows. >> I've had about three of them do this. At least two machines keep on >> running >> normally after it happend! The other I powered off instantly. This cap >> blows after the machines where running anywhere from an hour to several >> days. >Odd... I've had truckloads of 21MX's come through here (literally) that I've >restored... none had this failure mode. Perhaps I was lucky, perhaps it's a >regional thing. Good to keep an eye out for I guess. That (the EMI filters) seems to be the most common failure that I find. I've had the same thing on several other computers. Perhaps it's due to the heat and humidity here. > > >> If you don't have the key, you can carefuly pry it open. The latch is a >> simple aluminium strap and it will bend easily. After you get it open you >> can remove the strap and straighten it out and reuse it. >Yikes... please don't do this. Metal only bends so many times.... but >besides the metal fatigue issue, more important is that removing the strap >that the latch connects to takes all of about 30 seconds. It is connected to >a bolt on the left side of the machine that is accessed from the back of the >left rackmount flange. Just undo the bolt, door opens and metal strap falls. You're right about the screws, I had forgotten about that. Most of the 1000s that I find are still in the rack so I can't access the screws so I have to pry the panel open. You should never have to do it more than once so fatigue shouldn't be an issue. BTW perhaps someone should collect all the info in these posts and create a FAQ about the 1000s. Joe From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Apr 19 12:54:45 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 10:54:45 -0700 Subject: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) In-Reply-To: <006501c663cd$51ddbe50$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <4445DBD8.8070301@msm.umr.edu> <006501c663cd$51ddbe50$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <44467965.1030204@msm.umr.edu> Jay West wrote: > Jim wrote... > > >> It appeared to have had a Tandberg tape drive attached at some time. > > In all my years of focusing on HP 2100/21MX M-E-F boxes, I've only > come across ONE of those tandberg tape interfaces. I'd love to know > what drive they went to - I believe the tandberg interface was 3rd > party. I would imagine (given "Tandberg") that we're talking QIC-525 > or something like that? I have no clue, as I said I've only seen one > interface. I stuck in on the shelf in case I ever found said drive :) > the only nice thing is that they didn't chop the tape cable, though it has a really exotic Mil twist lock on the end of it. Fits the theory that this was a mil pull. This came from a Tucson scrapper, which probably suggests it is a pull from a test system that was struck by AMARC, or other entity there. I'll get a better scan of the Tandberg controller and see what I can see on the connector. Qic interface fits quite well, though they did make a 1/2 inch drive before that. Their stuff and Fujitsu, I expect will just work forever, it is so well made, if the smog monsters don't eat the rubber parts. Wish I had known about the tape drive, I could have looked at the guy's auctions and at least been able to ID it, but I have had this long enough there won't be any way to go back and look now. Jim From Useddec at aol.com Wed Apr 19 12:57:29 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 13:57:29 EDT Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? Message-ID: <3c8.7de446.3177d409@aol.com> DEC also made a LPS8. Paul From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 19 13:01:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 11:01:52 -0700 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <51CE4C1A-F031-4BDF-829C-156F77403DA8@bitsavers.org> References: <51CE4C1A-F031-4BDF-829C-156F77403DA8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200604191101520181.7B93C02F@10.0.0.252> On 4/19/2006 at 10:37 AM Al Kossow wrote: >large round tube attached to a CDC 1700. Was it a real 1700, or just the core logic used as a controller? I recall that the controller guts were in a 3000-style "blue glass" enclosure, not the standard 1700 setup. IIRC, the 1700 core was used on a lot of things that didn't bear the 1700 nameplate, like tape and disk controllers. Cheers, Chuck From Useddec at aol.com Wed Apr 19 13:06:58 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 14:06:58 EDT Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? Message-ID: <1be.2e60e47.3177d642@aol.com> I thought the VT11 only worked with the DEC VR14 and VR17, which were 14 and 17 inch displays. Paul From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Apr 19 13:18:52 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 13:18:52 -0500 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060419131749.04356b30@mail.ubanproductions.com> >I have a Genesco GCT-3000 ('76-ish..) which was on an Interdata >8/32 at JPL that supposedly was used to display decommutated >Viking Orbiter image data telemetry. > >The other displays from the 70's that I have are a VT-11 with 19" >display, a Megatek Whizzard from Bob Shannon, and a unused 4014 still >in the original box. All cool stuff Al, but where did you find a NIB 4014? That's excellent! The 4014 was the first graphics device I ever programmed... --tom From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Apr 19 13:40:37 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:40:37 +0100 Subject: TSX sources, distribution, etc. In-Reply-To: <200604190720.36844.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <001d01c6636f$4ef2c310$8e00a8c0@badddog> <200604190720.36844.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <44468425.7010600@gjcp.net> Lyle Bickley wrote: > I am committed to getting TSX into the hands of the "folks" - but I estimate > that it will take a week or so of my time - contiguous - to do it. That > hasn't happened yet - but I promise it will. Once again, if there's anything I can do to help, let me know. Gordon. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Apr 19 13:53:58 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 11:53:58 -0700 Subject: HP 1000 computer (parts maybe) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060419134758.32ff543e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060419101110.119f5b6e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060419134758.32ff543e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <44468746.8090103@msm.umr.edu> I have added selected comments to the page, and will update it with info as I find things out. Thanks to everyone who has replied. Too early for me to do a FAQ, I will do that if I get enough information to do so. Jim > BTW perhaps someone should collect all the info in these posts and >create a FAQ about the 1000s. > > Joe > > > > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Apr 19 14:40:20 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:40:20 -0700 Subject: TSX sources, distribution, etc. In-Reply-To: <44468425.7010600@gjcp.net> References: <001d01c6636f$4ef2c310$8e00a8c0@badddog> <200604190720.36844.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <44468425.7010600@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200604191240.20911.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 19 April 2006 11:40, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Lyle Bickley wrote: > > I am committed to getting TSX into the hands of the "folks" - but I > > estimate that it will take a week or so of my time - contiguous - to do > > it. That hasn't happened yet - but I promise it will. > > Once again, if there's anything I can do to help, let me know. If you're good at setting up a something like a on-line web store (in this case for free items) I can provide the domain and space. That is primarily what's holding me up at this point. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 19 15:55:18 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:55:18 -0500 Subject: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) References: <4445DBD8.8070301@msm.umr.edu> <3.0.6.16.20060419133914.10e76954@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <00dd01c663f3$918568c0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Joe wrote.... > That's good point. A lot of the problems that I've had with the 1000s > are due to poor contacts on those cards. I've found that if the contacts > are dry it's very hard to seat the cards. Now I take a paper towel and > dampen it with WD-40 and wipe the contacts good with it. It helps clean > the > contacts and it leaves a light film of kerosene (the primary ingredient of > WD-40) on the contacts and makes it much easier to seat and remove the > circuit boards. WD-40 is basically a light oil with some solvent properties. It is NOT meant for GOLD contacts, nor electrical use. I don't know about others practices or experience, but I wouldn't put WD40 on a gold edge card connector (remember, most any HP card of the period is gold connectors & traces, not copper or tin). I just can't imagine putting some oil on a edge card contact! It's (WD40) certainly not designed for that in any case. Use the right tool for the job and get a can of Caig Pro-Gold. It restores the gold connections, coats them for better life, is completely electrically inert, and... gets rid of the 'hard to seat the card' syndrome permanently. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 19 16:11:10 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:11:10 -0500 Subject: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) References: <3.0.6.16.20060419101110.119f5b6e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060419134758.32ff543e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <00e201c663f5$c8e6e3f0$6500a8c0@BILLING> You wrote... > That's interesting. I don't think I've seen a problem with the foam in > any of the 1000s that I have. Perhaps it's due to the difference in > climate. Still it's a good diea to check. Every single 1000 I've seen has had that problem, bar none. I think that foam is designed to turn to dust no matter what climate :> Thinking back, the majority of my systems have come from the areas in and around california, texas, missouri, and virginia - nothing from the deep southeast. Did you pop the cover of the power supply box? You probably wouldn't see this problem unless the supply burned up, or you saw a few chunks coming out the fans, or you noticed black dust at the bottom of the chassis... or... you opened the top cover of the power supply enclosure :) A very light coating of fine black powder or a few small chunks inside the system chassis is a dead giveaway that the power supply foam is leaking out as a fine particulate. You can usually spot it on the outside walls of the inside, as the airflow in those systems is side to side. The airflow has a lot of small obstacles, so particulates generally stay inside the chassis. > You're right about the screws, I had forgotten about that. Most of the > 1000s that I find are still in the rack so I can't access the screws so I > have to pry the panel open. You should never have to do it more than once > so fatigue shouldn't be an issue. One thing to consider.... a small percentage of the machines I've gotten in racks are on chassistracks, so you can just take out the lock bolts in front and extend them, then undo the front panel lock from the back left. However, a very large percentage of the HP's in racks (most) are not on telescoping chassistracks, but most all are sitting on simple L-brackets. In this case, just unbolt the rackmount ears and slide it forward a few inches. You don't have to derack it. I've never seen a 1000 that was rackmounted just by the front ears without L-brackets or chassistracks, it's just too much weight on the vertical posts. > BTW perhaps someone should collect all the info in these posts and > create a FAQ about the 1000s. *GRIN* I think that was a hint to me ;) Jay From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed Apr 19 16:15:58 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 22:15:58 +0100 Subject: RL02 problem Message-ID: <040201c663f6$7464b720$0200a8c0@p2deskto> Hi, last week, my PDP11/23+ was rebuilt into a new chassis (went from OEM 19" box to a proper 11/23+ chassis), and after the rebuild failed to work :( My first suspect was the new chassis, so it went back into the old box - still no boot. After trying each of the RL02s in turn, and even a different controller, I still couldn't get the machine to boot. After a little head scratching, I tried an alternate disk pack (still RT11), and the machine booted. After rebuilding the machine back into its new box, it all worked. A little more investigation shows that I can still read the faulty pack (installed in the second drive), but that the boot information is either corrupt or gone. Now for the question: can I restore the boot information, or will I have to re-initialise the pack and start again? (not a problem - it was my games pack with the extended monitor, but I can restore it from a backup, if needed). I will take all of the comments of "idiot" with good grace....... Thanks Jim. Please see our website: www.g1jbg.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 19 16:27:08 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 14:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <200604190938550765.7B47D110@10.0.0.252> References: <44465DCE.50907@yahoo.co.uk> <200604190938550765.7B47D110@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060419142437.D42805@shell.lmi.net> > >OK, related question - what's the most interesting graphics display system > > Didn't someone have a scheme for hooking up an Etch-A-Sketch to a system? > This would probably be back in the S-100 days, but I seem to recall a > magazine article about it. Milton Bradley "Big Track" toy "military vehicle". Programmable similar to "turtle graphics". Duct tape a pen to it. Try to find the "trailer", since it adds a Pen-up/pen-down capability. I think that Ciarcia may have once done an interface to it. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 19 16:30:23 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 14:30:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060419142843.S42805@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, Richard wrote: > > > What's the oldest graphical display output device in your collection? > > Uuuuh, a fountain pen? > Its not a display, doesn't count :-). It IS an output device. And once you have hung the results on your refrigerator, it is on display. Plotters/plodders are fun. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Apr 19 16:33:45 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 14:33:45 -0700 Subject: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) In-Reply-To: <00dd01c663f3$918568c0$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <4445DBD8.8070301@msm.umr.edu> <3.0.6.16.20060419133914.10e76954@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <00dd01c663f3$918568c0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4446ACB9.4060403@msm.umr.edu> Jay West wrote: > Joe wrote.... > >> . It helps clean the >> contacts and it leaves a light film of kerosene (the primary >> ingredient of >> WD-40) on the contacts and makes it much easier to seat and remove the >> circuit boards. > > WD-40 is basically a light oil with some solvent properties. It is a penetrating oil designed to lubricate after the fact. It is not even that good for use if you are just lubricating something, as it is designed to get into anything it can seep into and provide lubrication. The solvent properties make it even less interesting as Jay mentions. It is definitly not kerosene, which would evaporate, but a blend of oils. I am glad Jay mentioned a product to use, but anything but a hydrocarbon lubricant is preferable, as frequently there will be plastics that are damaged by hydrocarbon oils. Silicon based oils may not do the same damage, such as softening, but may soak into some materials and weaken them as well. Unfortunately, you about have to know the chemistry of the materials before selecting anything to lubricate, or clean. many materials may be damaged by these cleaning solvents or lubricants. Jim From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 19 16:46:20 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:46:20 -0500 Subject: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) References: <4445DBD8.8070301@msm.umr.edu> <3.0.6.16.20060419133914.10e76954@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><00dd01c663f3$918568c0$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4446ACB9.4060403@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <017a01c663fa$b2776220$6500a8c0@BILLING> Jim wrote... > I am glad Jay mentioned a product to use, but anything but a hydrocarbon > lubricant is preferable, as frequently there will be plastics that are > damaged > by hydrocarbon oils. Silicon based oils may not do the same damage, such > as softening, but may soak into some materials and weaken them as well. Caig Pro-Gold is designed to be sprayed in and around plastics, doesn't harm them. Primary purpose is gold contacts and cable ends with plastic hoods, etc. I'd have to double-check the can, but I'm pretty certain it doesn't cause any problems with semiconductors, chokes, coils, plastics, etc. As I've said before, it's not cheap, but it's certainly worth it. All you have to do is damage one board because it doesn't seat easily or pull easily, and Pro-Gold is cheap. Caig also makes a companion product, De-Oxit, which is quite good as a contact cleaner (primarily tin). In many cases I uses De-Oxit first, then Pro-Gold for anything De-Oxit hit that is gold. Jay From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Apr 19 16:47:55 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 17:47:55 -0400 Subject: Need some drivers for a Mac Media 100 Nubus Video Capture card References: <4445DBD8.8070301@msm.umr.edu> <3.0.6.16.20060419133914.10e76954@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <00dd01c663f3$918568c0$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4446ACB9.4060403@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <008a01c663fa$eb1c6bc0$0b01a8c0@game> If any Mac collectors here have software for a Media 100 Nubus Video capture setup please email me, I need drivers/software to get mine running. Thanks TZ From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 19 17:07:39 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 17:07:39 -0500 Subject: Free heavy duty web/ftp hosting for classiccmp'ers Message-ID: <018f01c663fd$acd8e890$6500a8c0@BILLING> As the old timers will no doubt recall, this is old news and they've heard it before. Newer list members may benefit and I haven't posted this for a while, so here goes. I try to post this about once a year. Among other things, I still own an ISP based in St. Louis, MO. We are a webhosting/colocation firm primarily but we also provide a lot of local access (dialup, T1, T3, xDSL, etc). This is not an operation run out of my basement, we have a real datacenter, FM220 suppression, biometric access controls, 30min online room ups as well as 7.5gw of diesel power backup, and some fairly serious bandwidth. What does this mean for classicmp'ers... well, basically - if you need or want, I will host any classicc computer related website or ftp site, free of charge. I'll also provide DNS services, email, mailing lists, etc. free of charge. Unlimited bandwidth (well, ok, there are some sanity checks if you pull half the sonet connection bandwidth and start to interfere with my paying customers). Why? Because it's something I can give back to the community since I don't have the electronics advice to give the list of the caliber of say.. Tony Duel :) You'd still maintain your site, it'd just be on one of our servers. Is there a catch? Yes. I will only provide free services for clearly classic computer related material. Do NOT ask me to host a website for pictures of your house, your dog, your company, etc... well.. unless you are prepared to pay going market rates - then I'd be all ears. But for any classiccmp related website, there is no charge, ever. It's (I think) a sweet deal, because you'd get your site in a world class datacenter with some stellar reliability - at no cost to you. Because I own the company, you don't have to worry about some friend hosting your site and then suddenly saying 6 months later "dude, I got a new job, can't host that site). If anyone has a need for this, just drop me a note off-list. Jay West From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 19 16:25:50 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 22:25:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Apr 18, 6 10:45:10 pm Message-ID: > > OK, what's the earliest graphics display system held by any of you > collectors? > > "graphics display system" is anything that creates a graphics image > with a display: calligraphic, storage tube, plasma, raster, etc. > Block character graphics don't count (or I would include my Commodore > CBM 8032 and all the stupid terminals :). > > My timeline goes like this, based on year introduced: > > 196?: Evans & Sutherland PS-300 terminal Are you sure it's as early as that? I thought it had ICs in it that would date it to the early 70's. My PS/390 is, of course, a lot later. > 197?: Tektronix 4010 terminal > 1974: Tektronix 4014 terminal > 1977: Hewlett-Packard 2648A terminal > Hewlett-Packard 1350A graphics translator > 1979: Atari 800 microcomputer > 1981: IBM PC CGA microcomputer > 1983: Televideo TS-803 microcomputer > 1984: Megatek Whizzard 1645 terminal > Diser Eve workstation > 1984?: Tektronix 4105 terminal > 1985: Sun 3/110 workstation > 1986: Hewlett-Packard 2397A terminal > 1988: NCD 14p X terminal > 1989: Evans & Sutherland ESV workstation > 1991: Evans & Sutherland Freedom accelerator > 1993: SGI Indigo^2 workstation > > []? - I don't know for certain, can you fill in the year? I am not sure of the years for a lot of my machines, but here are a few ones you don't have .... PERQ 1 workstation PERQ 2T1 workstation PERQ 2T4 (not a typo) workstation PERQ AGW3300 workstation AMT DAP 610 (I think, anyway, it's got a video output :-) I2S Model 70/E image processor/display I2S Model 70/F4 image processor/display I2S Model 75 image processor/display PPL video winchester disk + unibus interface Grinnell framestore for PDP11 Vectrex video game system (am I allowed to include that?) DEC GT40 vector terminal Victor 9000 HP9836 HP9817 HP9000/340 Xerox Daybreak FTS-88 BBC Micro (:-)), ACW Torch XXX Do you include the 'waveform display' DEC terminals that could display only 2 points in each vertical column (and were thus designed for displaying mathematical funcitons or waveforms)? I have a VT55 and VT105 here. You know, for all I have all those graphics systems, I still only have an MDA text display on this PC... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 19 16:54:14 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 22:54:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <44465DCE.50907@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Apr 19, 6 04:57:02 pm Message-ID: > > Richard wrote: > > OK, what's the earliest graphics display system held by any of you > > collectors? > > OK, related question - what's the most interesting graphics display system > that anyone has in their collection? Either interesting due to concepts used, > or interesting due to the spec considering the age of the device etc. I'll propose 4 canditates from my collection for having interesting hardware designs : HP1350 Grpahics Translator. It's all random logic, no processor. Strange... PERQ 1 (and all later classic PERQs). It has a graphics processor (the 'rasterop machine') that's integrated with the main CPU. The CPU's data path calculates the memory addresses for individual graphics words, there's a little pipeline that does a read-modify-write on words from memory (fetched in groups of 4, for hardware reasons), said pipeline shifts to align corresponding pixels in source and destination words,combines those bits that are within the area to be changed, and shoves the result back into memory PPL video hard disk. This is a head-per-track Winchester which rotates at video frame rate. RGB video is stored on 3 tracks of thr disk using analogue FM recording. I have a Unibus interface to store an image on this disk I2S image processor/display systems. I will have to dig out the manuals to get the exact architecture, but from what I remember, it has several byteplanes (each 512*512 bytes), the outputs of which go to progammable lookup tables, the output of those go to a multiple-input full adder, the output of that to more lookup tables, and then to the DACs. By suitable programming of the tables you can combine the byteplanes in just about any way you like. Add to that a hardware cursor (controlled by trackball or tablet), a pixel histogramming board, the feedback ALU (planes 0 and 1 are treated as a 16 bit accumulator, you can combine the contents of that with any other plane and write the result back to the accumulator). It's one complicated machines (one of mine has over 3 thousand DRAM chips, and as many TTL devices...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 19 16:30:02 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 22:30:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dueling HP's: 1350A vs 1351A In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Apr 18, 6 10:53:27 pm Message-ID: > > What is the difference between these two? > > HP 1350A graphics translator > HP 1351A graphics generator > > The 1350A has a product page on hpmuseum.net, but the 1351A has some > docs there that seem to describe the same product. However, one is a > "translator" and the other is a "generator". Can anyone tell me how > they are different? I only have the HP1350, but I can describe that and hopefully somebody else can describe the 1351 and we can figure out the differences. The HP1350 is a vector graphics generator. It takes in commands over an HPIB interface (I am told there was an RS232 version, I've never seen it, and the operating/service manual I have for the 1350 doesn't really describe it), using a command language that is similar to a subset of HPGL. It then outputs analogue X,Y,Z signals to a vector display. Inside it's all random logic, no procesor or anything that resembles a processor-type architecture. Just DRAMs and support circuitry, BCD-binary converters, state machines, the adder+accumulator circuit to generate the vectors, DACs, etc. I ahev no idea why HP called it a 'graphics translator', but that's what it says on the instrument and the manual. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 19 17:01:50 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 23:01:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) In-Reply-To: <007601c663ce$f35bf2a0$6500a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Apr 19, 6 11:33:11 am Message-ID: > > Joe wrote... > > I just check it over and then power it up if I don't see any obvious > > problems. However Tony D advocates removing all the cards, building a > > dummy > > load and testing the power supply under load. I, for one, am not that > > paranoid. YMMV. > HP's truly are built like tanks (speaking of the 2100A/S and 21MX M/E/F > line) - both electronically and mechanically. I don't worry about powering > them up as much as other brands of boxes. One caution - see my previous I will agree that the HP mechancial construction from that period is second-to-none, and that the electronic design is darn good too Now, I have no experience of the HP1000 systems (I would like to fiddle with one, but they are not common over here :-(), but I have some experience of the desktop calculators. HP went through a period of not putting crowbars in their PSUs. The HP98x0 machines had crowbars on just about every PSU output, the 9815, 9825 and 9831 have no crowbars at all. For the latter machines, if the chopper transistor in the PSU fails, the 5V line leaps to 30V and takes out just about every chip in the machine, including the custom CPU module. Yes I am paranoid about this. I check the PSUs in my 98x5s on dummy load before turning them on even if they just been sitting on the shelf here. I ought to add a crowbar, but would I trust it to protect the rest of the mahcine? Do you know if the HP1000 supplies have crowbar protection? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 19 16:40:14 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 22:40:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <444639C7.2030705@ais.fraunhofer.de> from "Holger Veit" at Apr 19, 6 03:23:19 pm Message-ID: > > Some do. I recall feeling "giddy" when I had a design with > The 9368 has proper hex decoding of the pseudo tetrades - but those days > it was almost impossible to locate, compared to the common 7447 types. > Eventually, I programmed 74188s for that purpose, after a short period These days you can do it with a small GAL (like a 16V8), but it's not quite as obvious as it sounds. There are only 8 product terms per output, and IIRC some segments are on for more than 8 of the input combinations. What you do is that if there are 8 or fewer input combinations that turn on a given segment, you program the product terms for those combinations, if there are 8 or more, you program the product terms for the input combinations where that segment is _off_, and then invert the signal in the output logic macrocell. > (as a pupil) where I made a diode matrix decoder based on a 74154 - > this soldered well on breadboards. Another trick was to use the 7447 for 0-7 (or 0-9, depending on how you felt), decode the other 8 or 6 inputs using a 1-of-n decoder (like a 7442), and re-encode those with a diode matrix, blank the outputs of the 7447 for those input combinations (either using the blanking input, or by forcing the data inptus to 1111) and finally logically OR the outputs of the diode matrix and the 7447 -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 19 17:10:15 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 23:10:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) In-Reply-To: <00dd01c663f3$918568c0$6500a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Apr 19, 6 03:55:18 pm Message-ID: > > Joe wrote.... > > That's good point. A lot of the problems that I've had with the 1000s > > are due to poor contacts on those cards. I've found that if the contacts > > are dry it's very hard to seat the cards. Now I take a paper towel and > > dampen it with WD-40 and wipe the contacts good with it. It helps clean > > the > > contacts and it leaves a light film of kerosene (the primary ingredient of > > WD-40) on the contacts and makes it much easier to seat and remove the > > circuit boards. > WD-40 is basically a light oil with some solvent properties. It is NOT meant Is 'your' WD40 the same as the stuff we get in the UK? The stuff we get over here seems to be a mixture of many different hydrocarbons, including some waxy ones. After a short-ish time the light components evapourate and leave the wax behind. Ideal for the original use (keeping water out), not so good on fine machinery. I tend to call it 'Wanton Destruction 40', because of this. If somebody has sprayed it onto, say, a camera or clock, you have to take the whole thing apart, clean all the bits in a suitable solvent, and then put it back togyeter. A long job. Yes, I use WD40. For keeping rust off garden tools, and off my steel rod/bar stock. I also use watch and clock oils on precision mechanisms, and propan-2-ol on electrical contacts. > for GOLD contacts, nor electrical use. I don't know about others practices > or experience, but I wouldn't put WD40 on a gold edge card connector I would be suprised if it attacked the gold, but I don't think it'll do much good to the contact! -tony From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 19 17:20:17 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:20:17 -0600 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 19 Apr 2006 14:30:23 -0700. <20060419142843.S42805@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20060419142843.S42805 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, Richard wrote: > > > > What's the oldest graphical display output device in your collection? > > > Uuuuh, a fountain pen? > > Its not a display, doesn't count :-). > > It IS an output device. And once you have hung the results on your > refrigerator, it is on display. Sheesh. I know this list likes to take things off-topic at the drop of a hat, but this is a little extreme. In my first call for responses I clearly stated I was talking about and it very clearly had nothing to do with fountain pens. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 19 17:27:38 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:27:38 -0600 Subject: Dueling HP's: 1350A vs 1351A In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 19 Apr 2006 22:30:02 +0100. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > I only have the HP1350, but I can describe that and hopefully somebody > else can describe the 1351 and we can figure out the differences. I have the 1351A. It sounds identical to the 1350A that you describe: no processor, TTL logic and memory with a set of DACs for the X, Y and Z outputs to the display. Mine has an RS-232 input, not the HPIB input. It appears that the input circuitry is a swappable daughter board that slides into the back of the 1351. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jdbryan at acm.org Wed Apr 19 17:38:56 2006 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 18:38:56 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) In-Reply-To: References: <007601c663ce$f35bf2a0$6500a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Apr 19, 6 11:33:11 am Message-ID: <200604192238.k3JMcvSu013675@mail.bcpl.net> On 19 Apr 2006 at 23:01, Tony Duell wrote: > Do you know if the HP1000 supplies have crowbar protection? Sure do. See: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/1000_MEF_EngrRef/92851-90001_Mar81_9.pdf Page 17 has the power supply block diagram and shows that seven of the low voltage supplies are crowbar-protected. -- Dave From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Apr 19 17:56:56 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 18:56:56 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 new arrivals Message-ID: <366D5127-40F9-4445-B294-6DDC109EB3D0@colourfull.com> What timing! Funny there should be a thread about HP 1000 series. I just received my two today. Here they are: http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/PhotoAlbum1.html F series. You can also see a pic of my Data General Desktop Generation I just got in. Rob ps. Thanks for all the great advice on HP 1000's. I know I'm going to be doing a couple of things before I power them up. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 19 17:59:44 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060419155724.O49091@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, Richard wrote: > Sheesh. I know this list likes to take things off-topic at the drop > of a hat, but this is a little extreme. In my first call for > responses I clearly stated I was talking about and it very clearly had > nothing to do with fountain pens. Sorry most of the plotters that I've had used Rapidograph pens (or equivalent) Would you prefer only CRTs? From pds3 at ix.netcom.com Wed Apr 19 18:30:21 2006 From: pds3 at ix.netcom.com (pds3 at ix.netcom.com) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:30:21 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: Fw: I've got a DEC Micro PDP11 Message-ID: <5018063.1145489422178.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Wherabouts is it located? -----Original Message----- >From: Jay West >Sent: Apr 17, 2006 6:19 PM >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Subject: Fw: I've got a DEC Micro PDP11 > >I am not sure if I forwarded this to the list yet.... if this is a >duplicate, my apologies. Contact original author directly, I have no >affiliation, etc... > >Jay >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Lane Winter" >To: >Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 10:56 PM >Subject: I've got a DEC Micro PDP11 > > >> with a RL02 and 2-3 disk packs.... not sure what to do with it. It does >> work. It's been a "conversation piece" for awhile now but I'd like to sell >> it. Not sure what it's worth tho. I might even be convinced into donating >> it >> if I knew it'd go to a display somewhere. >> >> Lane Winter >> >> reply via --> lanebw at comcast.net >> > From allain at panix.com Wed Apr 19 18:31:58 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:31:58 -0400 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? References: Message-ID: <003301c66409$74499360$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> >>>>> What's the oldest graphical display output device in your collection? >>>> Uuuuh, a fountain pen? >>> Its not a display, doesn't count :-). >> It IS an output device. And once you have hung the results on your > ... this is a little extreme. Yeah, my "digit"al display is reading 04 on this one. John A. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 19 18:42:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:42:52 -0700 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <20060419155724.O49091@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060419155724.O49091@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200604191642520532.7CCBF089@10.0.0.252> On 4/19/2006 at 3:59 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >Would you prefer only CRTs? Well, maybe LEDs and lightbulbs. Come to think of it, how about people? http://1stopkorea.com/index.htm?nk-trip5.htm~mainframe http://www.asiapacificms.com/articles/pixel_people/ From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 19 19:09:09 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 18:09:09 -0600 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:59:44 -0700. <20060419155724.O49091@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20060419155724.O49091 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > Would you prefer only CRTs? As I said in the first post: "graphics display system" is anything that creates a graphics image with a display: calligraphic, storage tube, plasma, raster, etc. Block character graphics don't count (or I would include my Commodore CBM 8032 and all the stupid terminals :). Fountain pens, smeared chocolate on paper and all other sorts of nonsense clearly doesn't fit the definition. Oh wait, I guess I mistook this list for discussion of classic computing, sorry! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 19 19:26:55 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 17:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060419172302.V52306@shell.lmi.net> > > Would you prefer only CRTs? On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, Richard wrote: > As I said in the first post: > > "graphics display system" is anything that creates a graphics image > with a display: calligraphic, storage tube, plasma, raster, etc. > Block character graphics don't count (or I would include my Commodore > CBM 8032 and all the stupid terminals :). > > Fountain pens, smeared chocolate on paper and all other sorts of > nonsense clearly doesn't fit the definition. Oh wait, I guess I > mistook this list for discussion of classic computing, sorry! You refused, and apparently still do, to define what YOU meant by "display". You explicitly listed "calligraphic" as the first item. Do you accept PLOTTERS?? How about a CNC milling machine used to carve a picture? If you want to get upset about "other sorts of nonsense clearly doesn't fit the definition", then you should HAVE a definition. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Apr 19 20:24:05 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:24:05 -0500 Subject: Back up 9 Track to CD Message-ID: Depending on what you're doing, it might be good to do two copies: an image and a set of extracted or semi-extracted files. On the QIC front, Apollo wbak tapes and SGI "inst" tapes come to mind: if you copy off files using e.g. dd, you must write them back to a tape before you can use them (format is proprietary and uses head and tail files). If you distcp or rbak them off as files also, you have more options (you can either write a tape or set up some sort of network install system). Std tar and cpio files don't have this issue, I'm not sure about 1/2" systems. Scott Quinn From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Apr 19 20:25:24 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:25:24 -0500 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? Message-ID: >For instance, some of the late 80's / early 90's hardware from the likes of >SGI are pretty impressive in abilities and architecture - using concepts that >have only hit the mainstream in the last few years - but of course they're by >no means 'earliest'... What about mid-80's SGI? I have an '86 vintage system with 12x geometry engines and 32 bitplanes - granted it's not Skywriter/VGXT or Reality Engine, but compared with other graphics from the time it's pretty hot. I fear that it doesn't have a Z-buffer, though (not completely sure yet). From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 19 20:29:00 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:29:00 -0500 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? References: <003301c66409$74499360$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <003901c66419$cd86a070$6500a8c0@BILLING> John wrote.... > Yeah, my "digit"al display is reading 04 on this one. Now THATS funny, I don't care who ya' are. Jay From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Apr 19 20:29:51 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:29:51 -0500 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? Message-ID: >Some Computervision CAD systems from the late 1970s or so have decorative >bits of wood on the racks - strips of Oak, I think. It really did not look >all that bad. > >Inside were mostly PDP-11/34 systems, I think. > >Not many people remember CV anymore. There was a CV thread on here not too long ago The later ones weren't so pretty - goodness gracious great hunks o'beige, and Sun based. For a while, I think Novas were the "in" machine at CV. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 19 20:36:38 2006 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 01:36:38 +0000 Subject: HHGTTG (Was: there is hope for tiny code! In-Reply-To: <20060417154331.X35780@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060417154331.X35780@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <575131af0604191836t5439e663m425826f96dc92f0a@mail.gmail.com> On 4/17/06, Fred Cisin wrote: > Repeated Q: Does anybody have a copoy of "Hyperland"? > (PRE-WWW BBC documentary made by Douglas Adams, Ted Nelson, ...) Er... Yes... -- Liam Proven ? Blog, homepage &c: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 President of ZZ9, the Hitchhiker's Guide to tjhe Galaxy Appreciation Society, 2004-2005 www.zz9.org :?) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 19 20:51:38 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:51:38 -0600 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 19 Apr 2006 17:26:55 -0700. <20060419172302.V52306@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > You refused, and apparently still do, to define what YOU meant by > "display". Next you'll be asking me to define what I mean by "binary". -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Apr 19 21:16:42 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 22:16:42 -0400 Subject: IBM Bus & Tag channel protocol specs? Message-ID: <200604192216.42482.pat@computer-refuge.org> It looks like I'm acquiring more bus and tag (s/3x0 parallel channel) interface peripherals, and got to thinking... it'd be fairly neat if I could hook a peripheral up to something, like say, a PC, and get it to talk to Hercules. It's not terribly difficult to find a cable pinout, but I haven't yet been able to find a description of the protocol used on the channel cables (or even what voltage spec, etc, they have). Does anyone have a copy of this they could make available? Or, is it already available somewhere that my searching hasn't found? If I had lots (more) spare time, I might think about reverse engineering something, but I'd rather start with a spec of what things are supposed to look like. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Apr 19 21:23:34 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 21:23:34 -0500 Subject: How much to charge for classic computer rental In-Reply-To: <200604181748380327.77E1CFDE@10.0.0.252> References: <200604182318.k3INIXoU033223@keith.ezwind.net> <200604181748380327.77E1CFDE@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4446F0A6.10600@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Heck, the > junior partner who made the 5 minute call to you probably passed on a > charge of $250 to the client. I'm usually a very optimistic, upbeat, glass-half-full kind of guy, but -- even though it probably happens all the time -- doesn't this seem a tad bit wrong? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 19 21:27:01 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 22:27:01 -0400 Subject: How much to charge for classic computer rental In-Reply-To: <4446F0A6.10600@oldskool.org> References: <200604182318.k3INIXoU033223@keith.ezwind.net> <200604181748380327.77E1CFDE@10.0.0.252> <4446F0A6.10600@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4446F175.30707@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Heck, the >> junior partner who made the 5 minute call to you probably passed on a >> charge of $250 to the client. > > I'm usually a very optimistic, upbeat, glass-half-full kind of guy, but > -- even though it probably happens all the time -- doesn't this seem a > tad bit wrong? Yes. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 19 21:34:35 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:34:35 -0600 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4446F33B.5030501@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > Next you'll be asking me to define what I mean by "binary". I'm still working on unary :) From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed Apr 19 20:59:34 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 18:59:34 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4446EB06.8040603@DakotaCom.Net> Tony Duell wrote: >> What was more amusing was two different versions -- "with tails" and >> without! :> > > There's also the 'hooked 7' (segments a,b,c,f using the conventional > names), used by some Japanese manufacturers. AFAIK no TTL decoder ever > generated that one. > > In the mid 70's there were several circuits in the UK magazines to turn 7 > segment code back into BCD, so you could use clock/calculator/DVM chips > with built-in display drivers in other logic circuits. Most of those > encoder circuits, of course, made liveral use of the 'don't care states'. > Some of said circuits would handle both tailed and tail-less 6's and 9's, > but IIRC most of them failed on hooked 7's. > > >>> That said, I think it is a pity there wasn't a later TTL 7 segment >>> decoder chip (say a 74LS547 or something) that did display 0-F as you >>> might expect. >> *Something* does this -- though I may have been driving LCD's > > There was a Fairchild one, I forget the number. > > >> at the time (thus CMOS parts). But, I remember a 7441 (though >> what I used it for I am unsure... :< ) > > 1-of-10 decoder, commonly used to drive nixie tubes. I used a 7447 to replace the front panel on a Nova 2 (3?). The OC outputs fit the Nova's bus nicely. And, by a bizarre twist of coincidence, some of the digit encodings would perfectly match the data intended to be seen on the bus when a certain (reduced!) set of front panel switches were keyed. So, we could boot, step, etc. a preloaded core image without having all of that hardware dangling off the front of the machine. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed Apr 19 20:55:09 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 18:55:09 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <20060418110202.HJDT8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060417222142.YLOK8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060418110202.HJDT8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4446E9FD.8050005@DakotaCom.Net> Dave Dunfield wrote: >>> I'm not promoting the Octal side (indeed I much prefer HEX), however >>> Zilog didn't "opt" for anything - they based their design and instruction >>> set decoding on the Intel 8080, which was laid out in a manner which >>> made sense with "Octal". And Intel DIDN'T use xsddsdsx, they DID use >>> xxdddsss - which made perfect sense from an Octal standpoint (which >>> is why so many people promoted the use of Octal with it). >> But the Z80 isn't an 8085 nor is the 8085 an 8080. (granted, the >> last two are much closer related than the first two). > > But the Z80 and the 8085 are both based on the 8080 architecture > and instruction set - so much so that they will both run the vast > majority of 8080 code. But that's a fallacy. You have to tweek the code in almost all cases (especially if you are designing embedded systems and not "desktop applications"). So, a smarter approach is to handle things at the *source* level instead of the *object*. > Is anyone really suggesting that it's an > "accident" that the Z80 happens to run 8080 code ... or did > Zilog begin with the 8080 instruction set definition (hence my point > that they (Zilog) did not make the decision on the bit arrangements > of the opcoodes). But a Z80 *won't* run 808[05] code. Nor will a 64180 run Z80 code. (and "Rabbits" don't run anything! :> ) Zilog made a very conscious decision to make a "different 808x". Everything from the pinouts, peripherals available, bus timing, etc. (where did RST 5.5 go? etc.). Nor did they adhere to Intel's mnemonics (copywritten?) -- though converting from one to the other is almost trivial with even the macroassemblers available back then. Tek used a still different set of opcodes in their tools, etc. >> And, there is no reason why xx ddd sss is any *better* than >> xs dsd sdx or sd xxd ssd for an instruction encoding. *We* >> used (split) octal because our MTOS supported hot patching >> and it was convenient to "hand assemble" code patches on the >> fly to fix bugs, etc. (gdb wasn't around for an 8080 in ~1976) > > Doesn't this suggest that xxdddsss actually was *better* - since > you took advantage of the alignment with octal notation to make it > easier to hand-assemble... But that's the point; it *doesn't* help you hand assemble. 1/4 of the opcode space is devoted to 8 bit moves. Yet, I find 8 bit moves seldom used (at least in any of the code that I've written/maintained). Sure, I may want to: LD D,H LD E,L to save a *copy* of r.HL before indexing off of it ADD HL,BC But, how often do you LD C,H or LD L,B etc? And, tracking 16 bit load/stores (LXI's, PUSH's, etc.) requires memorizing an encoding for *4* possible arguments. And who can recall the clever encoding of all of the conditionals? I.e. you end up committing the opcodes that you *use* to memory and dig up the oddballs from a cheat sheet when you need it. (e.g., PCHL/XTHL, etc.) I'd have rathered some of the opcode space spent on more useful instructions -- short load-immediates (where the argument is encoded in the first byte of the opcode), etc. > Thats my whole point. The fact that the instruction set happens to > align well with Octal notation is the main reason that a lot of people > used it. It's interesting to note that almost all of the Intel docs are > in hex, or binary notations - but Mits, Heath and several others > thought that Octal was a better fit. > > As noted earlier, I happen to be from the "hex" camp ... but I don't > think it's fair to dismiss the octal guys as "nuts" ... the use of octal > on the 8080 did have some benefit, and there were a lot of people > who went that route - to ignore or discount this does not present an > accurate depiction of the time period. When I worked on 8085's, we let the MDS-800 handle the assemblies. Burn a set of EPROMs (2 hours!), plug into the target and hope you've stubbed enough places in the code so you could figure out where it was based on examining odd display patterns, etc. Stare at listings, burn another set of EPROMs after lunch. Two turns of the crank in an 8 hour shift. Did the choice of opcode assignments increase productivity?? When I was doing Z80-based designs (in the "split octal" world), a helluva lot of energy was expended to support the "octal" encoding -- rewriting the Zilog assembler to generate listings in octal (INCLUDING displaying addresses in split octal!), building run-time "monitors" to examine and patch code images during execution, writing the associated software to do so, etc. I'm convinced the fact that you could get a ten-key keypad and an inexpensive LCD to display 6 digit SPLIT octal values had more of an impact on the octal decision than anything about the opcode encoding -- despite the fact that it made USING the tools more difficult (since you can only display a 16 bit value -- *address* -- in 6 digits, you have to multiplex the display to let the user see the *data* at that address :< ). I recall getting an EM-180 and quickly distancing myself from the octal vs. hex debate... I'll use *symbols* instead of dicking around with bit groupings. > Now why some people chose octal for other processors, which > didn't have an architectural slant toward 8 is more of a mystery > to me.... I think the fact that 0..7 fits in a decimal representation says a lot about the "why". :-( Amazing to consider how much "resources" got wasted on silly (in hindsight) decisions. Sort of like PC (and other) BIOS decisions placing silly restrictions on the size of a disk or where the boot code can be located, etc. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed Apr 19 21:00:44 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:00:44 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <44459B11.6070903@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <44459B11.6070903@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4446EB4C.7020900@DakotaCom.Net> woodelf wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >>> What was more amusing was two different versions -- "with tails" and >>> without! :> >> >> >> There's also the 'hooked 7' (segments a,b,c,f using the conventional >> names), used by some Japanese manufacturers. AFAIK no TTL decoder ever >> generated that one. > > http://www.mitt-eget.com/ > Several Calculator Fonts here. But calculators usually used their own silicon and could do whatever they wanted for segment decode... From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Apr 19 22:34:45 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 23:34:45 -0400 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <4446E9FD.8050005@DakotaCom.Net> References: <20060417222142.YLOK8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060418110202.HJDT8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <4446E9FD.8050005@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200604192334.45273.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 19 April 2006 09:55 pm, Don Y wrote: > >> But the Z80 isn't an 8085 nor is the 8085 an 8080. (granted, the > >> last two are much closer related than the first two). > > > > But the Z80 and the 8085 are both based on the 8080 architecture > > and instruction set - so much so that they will both run the vast > > majority of 8080 code. > > But that's a fallacy. You have to tweek the code in almost > all cases (especially if you are designing embedded systems > and not "desktop applications"). So, a smarter approach is > to handle things at the *source* level instead of the *object*. Feeling like I'm missing something here... What are these differences you refer to? I have some vague recollection of having heard of these someplace before, but the details are escaping me at the moment. <...> > But a Z80 *won't* run 808[05] code. ? <...> > I'd have rathered some of the opcode space spent on more useful instructions > -- short load-immediates (where the argument is encoded in the first byte > of the opcode), etc. I too felt that some things could have been done differently. :-) <...> > When I was doing Z80-based designs (in the "split octal" world), a helluva > lot of energy was expended to support the "octal" encoding -- rewriting the > Zilog assembler to generate listings in octal (INCLUDING displaying > addresses in split octal!), building run-time "monitors" to examine and > patch code images during execution, writing the associated software to do > so, etc. > > I'm convinced the fact that you could get a ten-key keypad and an > inexpensive LCD to display 6 digit SPLIT octal values had more of an impact > on the octal decision than anything about the opcode encoding -- despite the > fact that it made USING the tools more difficult (since you can only > display a 16 bit value -- *address* -- in 6 digits, you have to multiplex > the display to let the user see the *data* at that address :< ). I really do believe that the choices of what you could get for display hardware and simple decoding chips (hence my recent mention of the 7446 not decoding hex) influenced a lot of things in that direction, with for example the Heath H8 working that way too. Though I have NO idea why the H11 used octal... > I recall getting an EM-180 and quickly distancing myself > from the octal vs. hex debate... I'll use *symbols* instead > of dicking around with bit groupings. Works for me. One of the reasons I parted with that 1802-based system I had a while back, it had software, but the only way to get it into the machine was by punching in a whole lot of hex digits on a keypad, a prospect I found sufficiently daunting that I never even powered that machine up in all of the years I had it. > > Now why some people chose octal for other processors, which > > didn't have an architectural slant toward 8 is more of a mystery > > to me.... > > I think the fact that 0..7 fits in a decimal representation says a lot about > the "why". :-( Amazing to consider how much "resources" got wasted on > silly (in hindsight) decisions. Sort of like PC (and other) BIOS decisions > placing silly restrictions on the size of a disk or where the boot code > can be located, etc. Yep! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 19 22:50:23 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How much to charge for classic computer rental In-Reply-To: <4446F0A6.10600@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Apr 19, 6 09:23:34 pm" Message-ID: <200604200350.k3K3oN6b018486@floodgap.com> > > Heck, the > > junior partner who made the 5 minute call to you probably passed on a > > charge of $250 to the client. > > I'm usually a very optimistic, upbeat, glass-half-full kind of guy, but > -- even though it probably happens all the time -- doesn't this seem a > tad bit wrong? Dude, they're fricking lawyers. 99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name. The only lawyer I trusted was a guy who was actually the lawyer for the Salvation Army in San Diego. He also happened to be an ordained minister, and directly represented them in court. Apparently he was quite a fearsome adversary, which is why he was retained, but he was paid as a minister. That's how I knew he wasn't in it for the money. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "The Internet is, once again, your friend" (I wrote this *before* PacBell!) From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 19 22:51:31 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: from Richard at "Apr 19, 6 07:51:38 pm" Message-ID: <200604200351.k3K3pVbS013392@floodgap.com> > > You refused, and apparently still do, to define what YOU meant by > > "display". > > > > > > Next you'll be asking me to define what I mean by "binary". There are 10 kinds of people when it comes to binary: those who know it, and those who don't. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Look busy. Jesus is coming soon. ------------------------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 19 23:03:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 21:03:34 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <200604192334.45273.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <20060417222142.YLOK8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060418110202.HJDT8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <4446E9FD.8050005@DakotaCom.Net> <200604192334.45273.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200604192103340090.7DBA9B0E@10.0.0.252> On 4/19/2006 at 11:34 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> But a Z80 *won't* run 808[05] code. Well, a Z80 will run 8085 code that limits itself to 8080 instructions. But the 8085 has two documented instructions (RIM SIM) that the 8080 doesn't have--and a few more "undocumented" instructions (nonetheless used by many embedded programs) that neither the 8080 nor the Z80 has. Initially I thought that the Rabbit was a good idea--until I started to program it. What did you do with (insert a list of instructions)? And an interesting bug or two. Feh. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 19 23:18:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 21:18:46 -0700 Subject: How much to charge for classic computer rental In-Reply-To: <4446F0A6.10600@oldskool.org> References: <200604182318.k3INIXoU033223@keith.ezwind.net> <200604181748380327.77E1CFDE@10.0.0.252> <4446F0A6.10600@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200604192118460018.7DC88521@10.0.0.252> On 4/19/2006 at 9:23 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >I'm usually a very optimistic, upbeat, glass-half-full kind of guy, but >-- even though it probably happens all the time -- doesn't this seem a >tad bit wrong? You don't understand the basic premise of our legal profession. It doesn't make terribly much difference whether the case is won or lost--the name of the game is billable hours. I once attended a workshop given by one of the big litigation firms in their Portland office. I recall that the high point was when a senior partner asked me if I'd like to eat lunch in her office. There I was, in the corner office with a panoramic view of the Portland skyline and the Columbia river--eating a sandwich out of a styrofoam tray. It was great. At any rate, this particular firm maintained their own mock courtroom, complete wtih judge's bench, jury box, witness stand...you name it--with AV gear that would put the average Federal courtroom to shame. I learned some very useful stuff--like *NEVER* answer anything resembling finality during a deposition--except perhaps your name. Always--"I think so, but to be sure, I'd have to check my notes back at my office." open-ended type of answers. The primary purpose of a deposition is to destroy your credibility during testimony. They can get mad and abusive at you and your stupidity, but they can't catch you in a lie if you say you're not sure. And--if you're being deposed, take your time, drink some coffee, think pretty thoughts--the other side is paying for your time--and there's no judge present, so you're not compelled to say or do anything other than be reasonably accommodating. And so on. Tort law is an interesting alternate reality. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Apr 19 23:34:00 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 23:34:00 -0500 Subject: How much to charge for classic computer rental In-Reply-To: <200604192118460018.7DC88521@10.0.0.252> References: <200604182318.k3INIXoU033223@keith.ezwind.net> <200604181748380327.77E1CFDE@10.0.0.252> <4446F0A6.10600@oldskool.org> <200604192118460018.7DC88521@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44470F38.80802@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/19/2006 at 9:23 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > >> I'm usually a very optimistic, upbeat, glass-half-full kind of guy, but >> -- even though it probably happens all the time -- doesn't this seem a >> tad bit wrong? > > You don't understand the basic premise of our legal profession. It doesn't > make terribly much difference whether the case is won or lost--the name of > the game is billable hours. I must have the wrong background, then. My father-in-law is a public defender and I know he doesn't make much defending murder suspects, etc. I asked him once how he felt about defending people whom, in his mind, must be guilty; he responded by saying that it didn't matter what he felt: His job was to make sure that his client's rights under the law were upheld. Murdered or not, everyone is entitled to the same interpretation and application of law and justice. He then surprised me by saying that not every case even tries to get the suspect free (sometimes they've confessed, or insurmountable evidence, etc.) -- again, only to make sure the client's rights are honored. (BTW, before you slam public defenders (as in "30 years and he's still a public defender??"), my father-in-law became a lawyer for the first time at age 59 -- he wanted to change careers before he retired (used to make six figured in office-building real estate management).) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Apr 19 23:52:09 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 00:52:09 -0400 Subject: How much to charge for classic computer rental References: <200604182318.k3INIXoU033223@keith.ezwind.net> <200604181748380327.77E1CFDE@10.0.0.252> <4446F0A6.10600@oldskool.org> <200604192118460018.7DC88521@10.0.0.252> <44470F38.80802@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <012501c66436$2ef68fc0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 12:34 AM Subject: Re: How much to charge for classic computer rental > (BTW, before you slam public defenders (as in "30 years and he's still a > public defender??"), my father-in-law became a lawyer for the first time > at age 59 -- he wanted to change careers before he retired (used to make > six figured in office-building real estate management).) > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ There is nothing wrong with being a public defender your whole life, its an honorable profession. I have to say the people I find to be clueless in court (the times I got stuck doing jury duty) were the prosecutors. Yea I know this is offtopic but I must stress that if you have ever gone to court you will notice that the jury tends to be anything but your peers and most prosecutors seem to be people who cannot pass the test to be a mailman. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 00:16:01 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:16:01 +1200 Subject: Thanks to all: 8820 now working In-Reply-To: <1524.1145454953@www041.gmx.net> References: <1524.1145454953@www041.gmx.net> Message-ID: On 4/20/06, Arno Kletzander wrote: > Sat, 15 Apr 2006, "Bruce Lane" wrote: > > My thanks to all who offered assistance on my issues with the 'tech > > special' Trak Systems 8820 GPS station clock. The unit was successfully > > repaired, and has been working for nearly a full week without any > > further signs of problems. > > Incidentally, I've been having a bit of fun with a MEINBERG GPS166 Satellite > Controlled Clock lately - it had been set aside as defective at the > computing center of Erlangen University... Interesting that precision clocks should come up just as I start playing with one... I have an Odetics SatSync 325 here, with full docs and schematics, left behind by a science project departing after a 10-year run. It fires up to its menus (on a 4x40 LCD) - all offline stuff seems to be fine. I was told that it doesn't work, though. This one happens to have a Rubidium precision oscillator for internal reference, and GPS for external reference. There are dates on the drawings from 1987 to 1989. Internally, it's run by a couple of 6809s and a couple of ASICs. Even has the IEEE-488 option. At the moment, I plan to borrow its front panel for an LCDproc (http://www.lcdproc.org/) display (I'm one of the contributors) - the interface is 16 pins for the LCD (HD44780 w/2 enables) and a 16-pin DIP for the keyboard and contrast dial (15 keys, buffered/selected via two 74HC240s). At some point, though, it might be fun to run this as is was designed, even though a modern $25 GPS interface can squirt out an ASCII time stream. Given that its original cost was between $8000 and $18000 (depending on the options selected), I'm sure there aren't a lot of these floating around. Googling for it is just about worthless. I'm happy that I have the maintenance docs with it. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 00:39:19 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:39:19 +1200 Subject: RL02 problem In-Reply-To: <040201c663f6$7464b720$0200a8c0@p2deskto> References: <040201c663f6$7464b720$0200a8c0@p2deskto> Message-ID: On 4/20/06, Jim Beacon wrote: > After rebuilding the machine back into its new box, it all worked. A little > more investigation shows that I can still read the faulty pack (installed in > the second drive), but that the boot information is either corrupt or gone. . . . > Now for the question: can I restore the boot information, or will I have to > re-initialise the pack and start again? (not a problem - it was my games > pack with the extended monitor, but I can restore it from a backup, if > needed). Should be easy enough, but for the life of me, I can't remember the RT-11 command to write the boot block. I used to do it all the time with 2.9BSD and dd... the normal distro contained a dir of boot block source code for various controllers. All you had to do was compile the assembly into an executable, then dd it to the front of the drive. If you have a way to mount that pack in a UNIX machine, you could use dd to transfer the first block from another pack onto it - that should do the trick. With 100% RT-11, though, there should still be an easy way to do it (but I haven't really used RT-11 on a daily basis since 1989). > I will take all of the comments of "idiot" with good grace....... No need... this sort of thing used to happen back in the day with an amazing regularity. -ethan From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Thu Apr 20 00:53:01 2006 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 06:53:01 +0100 Subject: IBM Bus & Tag channel protocol specs? In-Reply-To: <200604192216.42482.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200604192216.42482.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1145512381.28383.4.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 22:16 -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Does anyone have a copy of this they could make available? Or, is it > already available somewhere that my searching hasn't found? If I had > lots (more) spare time, I might think about reverse engineering > something, but I'd rather start with a spec of what things are supposed > to look like. Have a look at the document ibm/360/A22-6843-3_360channelOEM on Bitsavers, I think it should tell you most of what you need to know. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu Apr 20 01:21:03 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 08:21:03 +0200 Subject: RL02 problem Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816AA@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Boot the system to RT11 and put the cartridge that will not boot in the second drive (assuming DL1:). Do a .DIR RT11* You will see RT11FB.SYS, RT11SJ.SYS and probably RT11XM.SYS. They are the monitors. Choose the one you want and do .COPY/SYS DL1:RT11FB.SYS . (exactly like this, the final dot belows to the comnmand). That will write the monitor to the boot block(s). - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: donderdag 20 april 2006 7:39 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RL02 problem > > On 4/20/06, Jim Beacon wrote: > > After rebuilding the machine back into its new box, it all > worked. A > > little more investigation shows that I can still read the > faulty pack > > (installed in the second drive), but that the boot > information is either corrupt or gone. > . > . > . > > Now for the question: can I restore the boot information, or will I > > have to re-initialise the pack and start again? (not a problem - it > > was my games pack with the extended monitor, but I can > restore it from > > a backup, if needed). > > Should be easy enough, but for the life of me, I can't remember the > RT-11 command to write the boot block. I used to do it all > the time with 2.9BSD and dd... the normal distro contained a > dir of boot block source code for various controllers. All > you had to do was compile the assembly into an executable, > then dd it to the front of the drive. > If you have a way to mount that pack in a UNIX machine, you > could use dd to transfer the first block from another pack > onto it - that should do the trick. With 100% RT-11, though, > there should still be an easy way to do it (but I haven't > really used RT-11 on a daily basis since 1989). > > > I will take all of the comments of "idiot" with good grace....... > > No need... this sort of thing used to happen back in the day > with an amazing regularity. > > -ethan > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 20 01:21:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 23:21:36 -0700 Subject: How much to charge for classic computer rental In-Reply-To: <44470F38.80802@oldskool.org> References: <200604182318.k3INIXoU033223@keith.ezwind.net> <200604181748380327.77E1CFDE@10.0.0.252> <4446F0A6.10600@oldskool.org> <200604192118460018.7DC88521@10.0.0.252> <44470F38.80802@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200604192321360510.7E38FAF7@10.0.0.252> On 4/19/2006 at 11:34 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >I must have the wrong background, then. My father-in-law is a public >defender and I know he doesn't make much defending murder suspects, etc. I think your father has chosen a noble calling. But tort law isn't criminal law--it's an alternate reality. Most often, tort cases are "won" by the party that manages to stay in the ring the longest--sort of like a boxing match. And that match often continues far past a TKO. Verdicts are often reduced or overturned after years of appeals. Up until the Federal class-action reform legislation was enacted a couple of years ago, there were a great many attorneys who made their fortunes by exploiting various states' class-action statutes. Does your notebook's battery only give 1 hour and 45 minutes of service when the manufacturer advertised that it would deliver "approximately 2 hours"? Stir the pot, find a few (4 or 5) folks who bought the system and who line up on your side, file in New Jersey and you could claim to be a class representing ALL customers who bought that particular computer. The goal is to force the manufacturer into a settlement, not actually to go to trial. You take your hunk of the action and everyone else gets sent a $50 coupon good on their next notebook purchase. So who wins? The manufacturer? Nope. The customers? Not really--very few will use the $50 coupon. The attorneys? You betcha! A new Jag and a month skiing in Gstaad at least. Like it or not (mostly I don't), torts are part of our justice system. Thank heavens criminal law doesn't work the same way. Cheers, Chuck From brian at quarterbyte.com Thu Apr 20 01:22:29 2006 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 23:22:29 -0700 Subject: IBM Bus & Tag channel protocol specs? Message-ID: <4446C635.5785.27BC8DD4@brian.quarterbyte.com> Hi Patrick, This is a pet project of mine too. Let's talk. I have done some work on this & would like to see it move forward. Having someone to work with would be great. The spec is called the I/O Interface Channel to Control Unit Original Equipment Manufacturer's Information (OEMI) and it's available online for free and in hardcopy for a nominal fee from IBM. Search for document GA22-6974 at www.elink.ibmlink.ibm.com/public/applications/publications/cgibin/pbi. cgi?CTY=US Also, there is a yahoo group for people interested in hanging hardware on Hercules, called ibm-legacy-hercules Brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel _| _| _| Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 _| _| _| Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian at quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 20 01:49:04 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 23:49:04 -0700 Subject: 1350 vs 1351 In-Reply-To: <200604200523.k3K5NdtB058560@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604200523.k3K5NdtB058560@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <44472EE0.3090800@sbcglobal.net> I have both the 1350A and 1351A. The main difference is the 1351A has more memory, 8000 vectors VS 2000 vectors, and 64 files VS 32 files. Also, My 1350A only address 1000 x1000 resolution and the 1351A 1020 X 1020 points. Bob Message: 2 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:27:38 -0600 From: Richard Subject: Re: Dueling HP's: 1350A vs 1351A To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: >> I only have the HP1350, but I can describe that and hopefully somebody >> else can describe the 1351 and we can figure out the differences. > > From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Thu Apr 20 02:34:47 2006 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:34:47 +0200 Subject: LED hex decoding, (was: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44473997.5020505@ais.fraunhofer.de> Tony Duell schrieb: >>> Some do. I recall feeling "giddy" when I had a design with >>> >> The 9368 has proper hex decoding of the pseudo tetrades - but those days >> it was almost impossible to locate, compared to the common 7447 types. >> Eventually, I programmed 74188s for that purpose, after a short period >> > > These days you can do it with a small GAL (like a 16V8), but it's not > quite as obvious as it sounds. There are only 8 product terms per output, > Sure you can do this nowadays. I was talking about 20 years ago. Today, the 9368 is still available from several surplus chip vendors - albeit for prices that makes one believe the chip was not silicon but carbon (i.e. diamond). Realistically, today one wouldn't even consider GALs for it - Noone still makes counters with the classical 7490+7475+7447 triple. Multiplex the whole stuff with a cheap PIC controller, or for special purposes, use something like the CA3161/CA3162 which are also still available, surprisingly. Heck, I recently even encountered a 8279, also an interesting gadget from the past. > and IIRC some segments are on for more than 8 of the input combinations. > What you do is that if there are 8 or fewer input combinations that turn > on a given segment, you program the product terms for those combinations, > if there are 8 or more, you program the product terms for the input > combinations where that segment is _off_, and then invert the signal in > the output logic macrocell. > > Another trick was to use the 7447 for 0-7 (or 0-9, depending on how you > felt), decode the other 8 or 6 inputs using a 1-of-n decoder (like a > 7442), and re-encode those with a diode matrix, blank the outputs of the > 7447 for those input combinations (either using the blanking input, or by > forcing the data inptus to 1111) and finally logically OR the outputs of the > diode matrix and the 7447 > > This is not really straight forward, and probably not even resource saving, is it? A diode is maybe 2 Eurocent, but in the past where such tricks where necessary, a 7447 and a 7442 and some diode matrix summed up to much more. But I remember I once have seen an application note for this, maybe in the old TTL cookbook (?). Holger From cc at corti-net.de Thu Apr 20 04:02:36 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:02:36 +0200 (CEST) Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <001101c663d5$25574ce0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <001101c663d5$25574ce0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, John Allain wrote: > IBM's first PC, maybe 1977, about $20,000 then. Had BASIC 1975. > and APL if you were lucky. Only the APL had graphics, a huge > incentive to learn APL. No, there wasn't graphics in APL, but there were the so called Print/Plot routines for both BASIC and APL that allowed to plot graphs and text on the 5103 printer. I have the software and manuals somewhere. Christian From cc at corti-net.de Thu Apr 20 04:21:06 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:21:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: RL02 problem In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816AA@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816AA@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > They are the monitors. Choose the one you want and do > .COPY/SYS DL1:RT11FB.SYS . > (exactly like this, the final dot belows to the comnmand). > That will write the monitor to the boot block(s). No, it won't. This will only copy the monitor file. The boot block is created with .COPY/BOOT:DL DL0:RT11FB DL0: (this will install the RL boot loader and make it load the FB monitor) You need to make sure that the RL driver (DL.SYS or DLX.SYS) is already on the target disk. BTW do a HELP COPY and you will get a good list of all available options for COPY. Christian From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu Apr 20 04:34:21 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:34:21 +0200 Subject: RL02 problem Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816AD@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Oops, thanks for the correction. You must use the /BOOT option! And indeed, the DL or DLX driver must be on the boot cartridge. If it is not, use .COPY/SYS DL0:DL.SYS DL1: (or DLX.SYS) I hope I did not make more errors this time :-) - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Corti > Sent: donderdag 20 april 2006 11:21 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: RL02 problem > > On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > They are the monitors. Choose the one you want and do .COPY/SYS > > DL1:RT11FB.SYS . > > (exactly like this, the final dot belows to the comnmand). > > That will write the monitor to the boot block(s). > > No, it won't. This will only copy the monitor file. The boot > block is created with .COPY/BOOT:DL DL0:RT11FB DL0: > (this will install the RL boot loader and make it load the FB monitor) > > You need to make sure that the RL driver (DL.SYS or DLX.SYS) > is already on the target disk. > > BTW do a HELP COPY and you will get a good list of all > available options for COPY. > > Christian > > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Apr 20 07:29:18 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 07:29:18 -0500 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <4446E9FD.8050005@DakotaCom.Net> References: <20060418110202.HJDT8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20060420113022.SCGY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > > But the Z80 and the 8085 are both based on the 8080 architecture > > and instruction set - so much so that they will both run the vast > > majority of 8080 code. > > But that's a fallacy. You have to tweek the code in almost > all cases (especially if you are designing embedded systems > and not "desktop applications"). So, a smarter approach is > to handle things at the *source* level instead of the *object*. Context: Mid 70's - several guys I knew (myself included) had little boards with wire-wrapped 8080's, some switches and a few bytes of RAM ... Didn't matter how "smart" you were, you worked at the machine level - hand assembling and entering opcodes. Thats when I first observed the octal/hex split - some guys chose Octal for the obvious advantages in hand-coding, I went hex due to my background... > > Is anyone really suggesting that it's an > > "accident" that the Z80 happens to run 8080 code ... or did > > Zilog begin with the 8080 instruction set definition (hence my point > > that they (Zilog) did not make the decision on the bit arrangements > > of the opcoodes). > > But a Z80 *won't* run 808[05] code. Nor will a 64180 run > Z80 code. (and "Rabbits" don't run anything! :> ) Zilog made > a very conscious decision to make a "different 808x". Everything > from the pinouts, peripherals available, bus timing, etc. > (where did RST 5.5 go? etc.). Nor did they adhere to > Intel's mnemonics (copywritten?) -- though converting from > one to the other is almost trivial with even the macroassemblers > available back then. Tek used a still different set of > opcodes in their tools, etc. Although it's possible to create software that will run on an 8080 (or an 8085) and not a Z80 (I used to do this to really annoy a friend who had a Cromemco Z80 system when I still used the Altair 8080 :-) ... By and large, the Z80 is a superset of the 8080 - There are some flag differences which prevent it from being a fully proper superset, however these affected very little "real" code. Macroassemblers? My first 8080 design had only "reset", "Deposit", "next" and "run" switches ... if you made a mistake entering an opcode you had to start all over again from 0000 0000 0000 0000. (or 00 000 000 00 000 000 if you are from the Octal camp) PS: RST 5.5 "went" the same place that SIM and RIM "went" ... it stayed in the primordial nothingness which existed before creation (RST 5.5 is an 8085 extension - the Z80 was based on the 8080, never the 8085 - so RST 5.5 never existed as far as the Z80 was concerned). > >> And, there is no reason why xx ddd sss is any *better* than > >> xs dsd sdx or sd xxd ssd for an instruction encoding. *We* > >> used (split) octal because our MTOS supported hot patching > >> and it was convenient to "hand assemble" code patches on the > >> fly to fix bugs, etc. (gdb wasn't around for an 8080 in ~1976) > > > > Doesn't this suggest that xxdddsss actually was *better* - since > > you took advantage of the alignment with octal notation to make it > > easier to hand-assemble... > > But that's the point; it *doesn't* help you hand assemble. > 1/4 of the opcode space is devoted to 8 bit moves. Yet, > I find 8 bit moves seldom used (at least in any of the > code that I've written/maintained). Sure, I may want to: > LD D,H > LD E,L > to save a *copy* of r.HL before indexing off of it > ADD HL,BC > But, how often do you LD C,H or LD L,B etc? Actually, you did have to MOV things fairly often on the 8080 (dedicated registers and all - don't forget that in spite of Intel always documenting it separately, 'M' was one of the Octal register representations). But more importantly - It's not just MOV ... IIRC, the following instructions on the 8080 have an octal field encoded: "MOV", "MVI", "ADD", "ADC", "SUB", "SBB", "INR", "DCR", "ANA", "XRA", "ORA", "CMP", "JZ", "JNZ", "JC", "JNC", "JP", "JM", "JPE", "JPO", "CZ", "CNZ", "CC", "CNC", "CP", "CM", "CPE", "CPO", "RC", "RNZ", "RC", "RNC", "RP", "RM", "RPE", "RPO", "RST" As to how often I use these instruction - how about some hard data instead of conjecture - I wrote a program to analyze 8080 source, and launched it against two of my earliest code examples, namely - a small 8080 Monitor and BASIC interpreter that I wrote for the UNB computer club in the 70's: In the output below: Directives - are any non-opcode source lines, EQU, ORG, DB etc. Octal opcodes - are opcodes from the above list (with an octal field in them) Non-octal opcodes - are all other opcodes (which don't have an octal field) Filename : MONITOR.ASM Total lines : 645 Comment/blank : 100 Directives : 39 Octal opcodes : 200 Non-octal opcodes: 306 Looks like 2/3 of the instructions encoded in my monitor have at least one octal field representation. Filename : BASIC.ASM Total lines : 1975 Comment/blank : 386 Directives : 143 Octal opcodes : 494 Non-octal opcodes: 952 Looks like more than 1/2 of the instructions encoded in my BASIC have at least one octal field. Note that I have only use the octal fields depicted in the Intel databook (mainly the registers, the conditional coding and the RST vector) - in practice (and this is going way back now) ... Octal makes sense for other parts of the opcode as well - for example, all arithmetic opcodes are encoded as 10 rrr aaa Where aaa is a triplet encoding the arithmetic operation. > And, tracking 16 bit load/stores (LXI's, PUSH's, etc.) > requires memorizing an encoding for *4* possible arguments. Yes - these are included in the "Non-octal" catagory above. > And who can recall the clever encoding of all of the > conditionals? Tough if you think in hex (the conditon field would be split across two nibbles ... but if you think in Octal, it's not so tough ... all conditions are represented in the second triplet (from the right): 000 = 0 = NZ 001 = 1 = Z 010 = 2 = NC 011 = 3 = C 100 = 4 = PO 101 = 5 = PE 110 = 6 = P 111 = 7 = M All transfer instruction are encoded: 11 ccc xxx Where xxis: 000 = Rcondition 010 = Jcondition 100 = Ccondition > > As noted earlier, I happen to be from the "hex" camp ... but I don't > > think it's fair to dismiss the octal guys as "nuts" ... the use of octal > > on the 8080 did have some benefit, and there were a lot of people > > who went that route - to ignore or discount this does not present an > > accurate depiction of the time period. > > When I worked on 8085's, we let the MDS-800 handle the assemblies. > Burn a set of EPROMs (2 hours!), plug into the target and hope > you've stubbed enough places in the code so you could figure out > where it was based on examining odd display patterns, etc. > Stare at listings, burn another set of EPROMs after lunch. > Two turns of the crank in an 8 hour shift. Did the choice of > opcode assignments increase productivity?? Probably not - but I seem to recall that even though the 8080 was a rather expensive chip to get, it still didn't always come with an MDS-800 - I don't recall any of the guys in our "homebrew computer club" having an MDS-800 (or any production computer for that matter). Some of the guys claimed that thinking of the opcode in Octal made it much easier for them ... All I am saying is that I can see some validity to their claim. > When I was doing Z80-based designs (in the "split octal" world), > a helluva lot of energy was expended to support the "octal" > encoding -- rewriting the Zilog assembler to generate listings > in octal (INCLUDING displaying addresses in split octal!), > building run-time "monitors" to examine and patch code images > during execution, writing the associated software to do so, etc. This would be because you didn't work in Octal (split or otherwise). The same could be said for any encoding scheme - If some of your users had demanded to use base 13 this too would have presented a challange to you - but at least the "ultimate answer" would work out correctly: (6x9=42 in base 13 :-) > I'm convinced the fact that you could get a ten-key > keypad and an inexpensive LCD to display 6 digit SPLIT octal > values had more of an impact on the octal decision than > anything about the opcode encoding -- despite the fact that > it made USING the tools more difficult (since you can only > display a 16 bit value -- *address* -- in 6 digits, you have > to multiplex the display to let the user see the *data* at > that address :< ). That was certainly part of it - as was the fact that 7447's could display Octal quite nicely, but didn't work so well with Hex. But I would also say that a higher percentage of single-board 8080 machines used Octal - because it does make sense with the instruction set. > I recall getting an EM-180 and quickly distancing myself > from the octal vs. hex debate... I'll use *symbols* instead > of dicking around with bit groupings. Why even bother with that ... why not just use mouse clicks and "drag and drop". In the days of wirewrap systems, homebrew front panels and pencil and pad assemblers, bit groupings mattered. One question though --- since you use symbols and don't "dick around" with bit groupings ... why is the use of Hex over Octal so important to you? ... wouldn't one be just as good as the other to the high level view (like some detail burried way down in the mouse driver that you don't need to care about when you click). > > Now why some people chose octal for other processors, which > > didn't have an architectural slant toward 8 is more of a mystery > > to me.... > > I think the fact that 0..7 fits in a decimal representation > says a lot about the "why". :-( Amazing to consider how > much "resources" got wasted on silly (in hindsight) decisions. > Sort of like PC (and other) BIOS decisions placing silly > restrictions on the size of a disk or where the boot code > can be located, etc. I never saw it as a huge waste of "resources" - In the early days, some guys liked Octal, some guys liked hex - I worked mainly in hex, but I didn't have a great deal of trouble going back and forth - you were happy just to find someone who knew the language - the particular dialect that he chose didn't seem all that important at the time. Clearly the debate can rage on forever - If you like hex, and consider it the "only game in town", then thats OK by me. I happen to see advantages to both viewpoints. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 07:34:31 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 08:34:31 -0400 Subject: IBM Bus & Tag channel protocol specs? In-Reply-To: <200604192216.42482.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200604192216.42482.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <44477FD7.6070700@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > It looks like I'm acquiring more bus and tag (s/3x0 parallel channel) > interface peripherals, and got to thinking... it'd be fairly neat if I > could hook a peripheral up to something, like say, a PC, and get it to > talk to Hercules. > > It's not terribly difficult to find a cable pinout, but I haven't yet > been able to find a description of the protocol used on the channel > cables (or even what voltage spec, etc, they have). > > Does anyone have a copy of this they could make available? Or, is it > already available somewhere that my searching hasn't found? If I had > lots (more) spare time, I might think about reverse engineering > something, but I'd rather start with a spec of what things are supposed > to look like. You do know that the ARTIC960 parallel channel adapters Just Work(tm) in AIX, right? Peace... Sridhar From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 20 09:26:32 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:26:32 Subject: How much to charge for classic computer rental In-Reply-To: <4446F0A6.10600@oldskool.org> References: <200604181748380327.77E1CFDE@10.0.0.252> <200604182318.k3INIXoU033223@keith.ezwind.net> <200604181748380327.77E1CFDE@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060420092632.19b7deec@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:23 PM 4/19/06 -0500, Jim Leonard wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Heck, the >> junior partner who made the 5 minute call to you probably passed on a >> charge of $250 to the client. > >I'm usually a very optimistic, upbeat, glass-half-full kind of guy, but >-- even though it probably happens all the time -- doesn't this seem a >tad bit wrong? Probably but that's what lawyers do! FWIW my daughter is just finishing her 1st year of law school :-/ Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 20 09:37:40 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:37:40 Subject: How much to charge for classic computer rental In-Reply-To: <012501c66436$2ef68fc0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <200604182318.k3INIXoU033223@keith.ezwind.net> <200604181748380327.77E1CFDE@10.0.0.252> <4446F0A6.10600@oldskool.org> <200604192118460018.7DC88521@10.0.0.252> <44470F38.80802@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060420093740.194f35b4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:52 AM 4/20/06 -0400, you wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jim Leonard" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 12:34 AM >Subject: Re: How much to charge for classic computer rental > >> (BTW, before you slam public defenders (as in "30 years and he's still a >> public defender??"), my father-in-law became a lawyer for the first time >> at age 59 -- he wanted to change careers before he retired (used to make >> six figured in office-building real estate management).) >> -- >> Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > >There is nothing wrong with being a public defender your whole life, its an >honorable profession. I have to say the people I find to be clueless in >court (the times I got stuck doing jury duty) were the prosecutors. Yea I >know this is offtopic but I must stress that if you have ever gone to court >you will notice that the jury tends to be anything but your peers and most >prosecutors seem to be people who cannot pass the test to be a mailman. LOL! True! How many of you watched the bungling prosecutors in the OJ trial? Joe > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 20 09:34:38 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:34:38 Subject: How much to charge for classic computer rental In-Reply-To: <44470F38.80802@oldskool.org> References: <200604192118460018.7DC88521@10.0.0.252> <200604182318.k3INIXoU033223@keith.ezwind.net> <200604181748380327.77E1CFDE@10.0.0.252> <4446F0A6.10600@oldskool.org> <200604192118460018.7DC88521@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060420093438.194f494a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:34 PM 4/19/06 -0500, you wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 4/19/2006 at 9:23 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >> >>> I'm usually a very optimistic, upbeat, glass-half-full kind of guy, but >>> -- even though it probably happens all the time -- doesn't this seem a >>> tad bit wrong? >> >> You don't understand the basic premise of our legal profession. It doesn't >> make terribly much difference whether the case is won or lost--the name of >> the game is billable hours. > >I must have the wrong background, then. My father-in-law is a public >defender and I know he doesn't make much defending murder suspects, etc. > I asked him once how he felt about defending people whom, in his mind, >must be guilty; he responded by saying that it didn't matter what he >felt: His job was to make sure that his client's rights under the law >were upheld. That's a nice cop-out! It makes me sick to hear that shit! When have they ever thought of the victums rights??? Or the rights of the witneses that they continualy abuse on the stand? Joe Murdered or not, everyone is entitled to the same >interpretation and application of law and justice. He then surprised me >by saying that not every case even tries to get the suspect free >(sometimes they've confessed, or insurmountable evidence, etc.) -- >again, only to make sure the client's rights are honored. > >(BTW, before you slam public defenders (as in "30 years and he's still a >public defender??"), my father-in-law became a lawyer for the first time >at age 59 -- he wanted to change careers before he retired (used to make >six figured in office-building real estate management).) >-- >Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ >Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ >Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ >A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 20 09:45:22 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:45:22 Subject: How much to charge for classic computer rental In-Reply-To: <200604192321360510.7E38FAF7@10.0.0.252> References: <44470F38.80802@oldskool.org> <200604182318.k3INIXoU033223@keith.ezwind.net> <200604181748380327.77E1CFDE@10.0.0.252> <4446F0A6.10600@oldskool.org> <200604192118460018.7DC88521@10.0.0.252> <44470F38.80802@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060420094522.194f444a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:21 PM 4/19/06 -0700, you wrote: >On 4/19/2006 at 11:34 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > >>I must have the wrong background, then. My father-in-law is a public >>defender and I know he doesn't make much defending murder suspects, etc. > >I think your father has chosen a noble calling. But tort law isn't >criminal law--it's an alternate reality. Most often, tort cases are "won" >by the party that manages to stay in the ring the longest--sort of like a >boxing match. And that match often continues far past a TKO. Verdicts >are often reduced or overturned after years of appeals. > >Up until the Federal class-action reform legislation was enacted a couple >of years ago, there were a great many attorneys who made their fortunes by >exploiting various states' class-action statutes. Does your notebook's >battery only give 1 hour and 45 minutes of service when the manufacturer >advertised that it would deliver "approximately 2 hours"? Stir the pot, >find a few (4 or 5) folks who bought the system and who line up on your >side, file in New Jersey and you could claim to be a class representing ALL >customers who bought that particular computer. The goal is to force the >manufacturer into a settlement, not actually to go to trial. You take your >hunk of the action and everyone else gets sent a $50 coupon good on their >next notebook purchase. $50? HAH! I was an unwilling participant in a class action suit and my award was 34 cents! I still have the check somewhere, it wasn't worth cashing. That was for escrow account overcharges that costs me hundreds. The lawyers got the rest. Joe > >So who wins? The manufacturer? Nope. The customers? Not really--very >few will use the $50 coupon. The attorneys? You betcha! A new Jag and a >month skiing in Gstaad at least. > >Like it or not (mostly I don't), torts are part of our justice system. >Thank heavens criminal law doesn't work the same way. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Apr 20 08:49:54 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:49:54 +0100 Subject: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060419134758.32ff543e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060419101110.119f5b6e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060419134758.32ff543e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: In message <3.0.6.16.20060419134758.32ff543e at pop-server.cfl.rr.com> "Joe R." wrote: > That (the EMI filters) seems to be the most common failure that I find. > I've had the same thing on several other computers. Perhaps it's due to the > heat and humidity here. I've seen X2-rated mains filter caps blow all too often. My Acorn Master 128 has had its input filter caps replaced after a blowout. Made a lot of foul-smelling smoke for such a small device. I think I might still have the photos I took of the blown part... The Schaffner power filter module in my Solartron 7150plus DMM did the exact same thing. Loud bang, huge puff of smoke, and brown gunk all over the inside of the meter. Took a good two hours to get the crap off, then another hour to replace the PFM. It still emits that lovely burned capacitor smell when I power it up, especially when it's been in its carry-case for a while. Damn I hate those little capacitors... -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 09:01:12 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:01:12 +0100 Subject: Portable Commodore 64 Message-ID: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.com> I found one of these on ebay (8278074346). I have never seen or heard of it before, does anyone here have one ? Dan From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 20 09:07:27 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 07:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.com> from Dan Williams at "Apr 20, 6 03:01:12 pm" Message-ID: <200604201407.k3KE7RrK018110@floodgap.com> > I found one of these on ebay (8278074346). I have never seen or heard > of it before, does anyone here have one ? This comes up with 24 silk flowers. (!!) If you mean the SX-64, yes, I have three of them (and I am looking for a spare keyboard [cable not necessary but appreciated] if anyone has a dud SX-64 and is willing to part it out). They are not amazingly common but they are actually not terribly difficult to find either. However, they have started to command rather disappointingly high prices even for non-mint models. My SX's regularly take trips to computer road shows. They often attract more attention than the exhibits they are supposed to be helping in. http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/exec.html -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I believe in getting into hot water; it keeps you clean. -- G.K. Chesterton From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 09:13:15 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:13:15 +0100 Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: <200604201407.k3KE7RrK018110@floodgap.com> References: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.com> <200604201407.k3KE7RrK018110@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640604200713m53fc25cbvcb0b458060bf1a32@mail.gmail.com> On 20/04/06, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I found one of these on ebay (8278074346). I have never seen or heard > > of it before, does anyone here have one ? > > This comes up with 24 silk flowers. (!!) > Oops it's 8278074345 Dan From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Apr 20 09:14:33 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 10:14:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: <200604201407.k3KE7RrK018110@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20060420141433.7F52458207@mail.wordstock.com> > > > If you mean the SX-64, yes, I have three of them (and I am looking for a > spare keyboard [cable not necessary but appreciated] if anyone has a dud > SX-64 and is willing to part it out). They are not amazingly common but they > are actually not terribly difficult to find either. However, they have > started to command rather disappointingly high prices even for non-mint > models. > You are not kidding. This SX-64 (8278074345) is being offered for $894.75!!!! Cheers, Bryan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 20 09:20:27 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 07:20:27 -0700 Subject: How much to charge for classic computer rental In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060420094522.194f444a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <44470F38.80802@oldskool.org> <200604182318.k3INIXoU033223@keith.ezwind.net> <200604181748380327.77E1CFDE@10.0.0.252> <4446F0A6.10600@oldskool.org> <200604192118460018.7DC88521@10.0.0.252> <44470F38.80802@oldskool.org> <3.0.6.16.20060420094522.194f444a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200604200720270885.7FEF62C6@10.0.0.252> On 4/20/2006 at 9:45 AM Joe R. wrote: > $50? HAH! I was an unwilling participant in a class action suit and my >award was 34 cents! I still have the check somewhere, it wasn't worth >cashing. That was for escrow account overcharges that costs me hundreds. >The lawyers got the rest. At least you got a cash reward. Most rewards (as in my $50 coupon above) are not in cash, but usually a discount on your next purchase--which actually does the manufacturer more good than it does you--and is usually far less than a regular retail store discount. Some years ago, it was proposed in Texas that class-action suit attorneys be paid in the same specie that claimants received. So, in the above action, the attorneys would be paid in $50-off coupons. The proposal didn't get very far. Where this ties in to computing and electronics is in patent litigation. Few understand that the only right a patent confers on its holder is the right to sue in case of infringement. To sue, you have to have the resources for a long and expensive battle. That's why the cries of "patent reform" in the recent Blackberry case were particularly ludicrous. If patent infringement carried criminal penalties like copyright infringement does, the world would be quite a different place. But I never heard that suggestion trotted out by the reformers. Bottom line, my response still holds: if the system being leased to the customer is unusual and part of a tort action, get what you can. Heaven knows that the attorneys will. Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 20 09:20:34 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:20:34 -0500 Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.co m> References: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060420091846.04be2a10@mail> At 09:01 AM 4/20/2006, you wrote: >I found one of these on ebay (8278074346). I have never seen or heard >of it before, does anyone here have one ? You meant 8278074345 or 8796143722 . Uncommon, that's all. If you look at completed listings, there were three recently, at about US $65. - John From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 20 09:33:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 07:33:33 -0700 Subject: 8080-family hex vs. octal - was: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <20060420113022.SCGY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060418110202.HJDT8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060420113022.SCGY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200604200733330915.7FFB6134@10.0.0.252> Although I was well aware of the octal grouping of fields in the 8080, I adopted hex right off from the start, as I did when coding for the 8008. The problems dealing with "split" 16-bit quantites was too much of a hurdle to warrant octal. As far as memorizing opcodes, that's neither here nor there. While octal's nice for decoding moves, it's less of an issue for conditionals. There's still a very recognizable pattern: JNZ = C2 JZ = CA CNZ = C4 CZ = CC RNZ = C0 RZ = C8 JNC = D2 JC = DA CNC = D4 CC = DC ... Cheers, Chuck From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Apr 20 09:38:07 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 10:38:07 -0400 Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes. I have one. Nice little unit. Commodore 64 ,1541 disk drive and small TV/monitor. Rob On Apr 20, 2006, at 10:01 AM, Dan Williams wrote: > I found one of these on ebay (8278074346). I have never seen or heard > of it before, does anyone here have one ? > > Dan > From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Apr 20 09:37:31 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:37:31 +0100 Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: <200604201407.k3KE7RrK018110@floodgap.com> References: <200604201407.k3KE7RrK018110@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <189d921a4e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <200604201407.k3KE7RrK018110 at floodgap.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > If you mean the SX-64, yes, I have three of them (and I am looking for a > spare keyboard [cable not necessary but appreciated] if anyone has a dud > SX-64 and is willing to part it out). They are not amazingly common but they > are actually not terribly difficult to find either. However, they have > started to command rather disappointingly high prices even for non-mint > models. Are there any custom ICs in there - custom defined as "not found in a garden-variety breadbox Commodore 64"? Hardware-wise, how do the two machines compare (besides the obvious "the SX64 has a built in monitor and disc drives")? I know there's the SID and VIC; I was wondering if the drives were implemented as "guts of a 1541 strapped to the chassis" or custom ICs integrated onto the mainboard. Thanks. -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 20 09:54:47 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:54:47 +0100 Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4447A0B7.2010601@yahoo.co.uk> Dan Williams wrote: > I found one of these on ebay (8278074346). I have never seen or heard > of it before, does anyone here have one ? SX-64? Yep, we ended up with a couple at the museum that a guy had found at the dump. Both were dead; multiple faults on both plus various bits of case damage. I managed to find a broken donor C64 (surprisingly difficult - I didn't want to sacrifice a *working* model!) for various parts and then combine the best bits of both cases to make a respectable machine. That unit did stirling service at the CGE show a couple of years ago and ran without problems (despite other machines having heat-related troubles that day). It was the first time I'd seriously used any kind of C64 variant too - I ended up completely underwhelmed by the clunky disk system (BBC micro, this ain't!) and the portable keyboard felt like it was made of cardboard... Our second machine *could* be made to run again I suppose - IIRC it has a power supply fault, display fault, custom chip issues, and is missing a keyboard cable. It's also lacking the blue end caps for the handle though, so would need those sourcing from a scrap unit somewhere. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 20 10:17:41 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:17:41 +0100 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4447A615.3070002@yahoo.co.uk> Scott Quinn wrote: >> For instance, some of the late 80's / early 90's hardware from the likes of >> SGI are pretty impressive in abilities and architecture - using concepts that >> have only hit the mainstream in the last few years - but of course they're by >> no means 'earliest'... > > What about mid-80's SGI? Yep, that counts too :) > I have an '86 vintage system with 12x geometry engines > and 32 bitplanes - granted it's not Skywriter/VGXT or Reality Engine, > but compared with other graphics from the time it's pretty hot. Wow, that's not bad at all. My Tek XD88's a couple of years later than that (and they were considered pretty hot on the graphics front) and is only 8 planes and the equivalent of 4 GE's. Although I've not seen Tek's model 30 XD88 (mine's a model 10) - that had 24bit visuals and may well have had a similar spec to your SGI. I'm almost certain that it included z-buffer too (but it *was* a couple of years later than your SGI). > I fear that it doesn't have a Z-buffer, though (not completely sure yet). Hmmm, is this an IRIS 3xxx machine (680x0 CPU)? The SGI IRIS FAQ seems to suggest that bitplane bords could be chained together to make various combinations of total planes. I would have thought that sort of modularity was at the expense of more complex features like z-buffer though... cheers Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 20 10:24:10 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 08:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: <189d921a4e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from Philip Pemberton at "Apr 20, 6 03:37:31 pm" Message-ID: <200604201524.k3KFOA5R017352@floodgap.com> > > If you mean the SX-64, yes, I have three of them (and I am looking for a > > spare keyboard [cable not necessary but appreciated] if anyone has a dud > > SX-64 and is willing to part it out). They are not amazingly common but they > > are actually not terribly difficult to find either. However, they have > > started to command rather disappointingly high prices even for non-mint > > models. > > Are there any custom ICs in there - custom defined as "not found in a > garden-variety breadbox Commodore 64"? Hardware-wise, how do the two machines > compare (besides the obvious "the SX64 has a built in monitor and disc > drives")? > > I know there's the SID and VIC; I was wondering if the drives were > implemented as "guts of a 1541 strapped to the chassis" or custom ICs > integrated onto the mainboard. No, the only thing custom is the layout and the Kernal. Otherwise, it's a bog-standard NMOS-series C64 and 1541 chipset. In fact, a regular C64 Kernal will work fine, except obviously the default device will be one (a problem as there is no cassette port), and the screen colours will be the usual. Many people have repaired their SX-64s from partially working 64s and 1541s. Also, unlike the 128DCR, the SX-64 is not a unified mainboard. There are several daughterboards in slots. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Quote for the day: " ------------------------------------------------------- From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 20 10:33:59 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:33:59 -0600 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:02:36 +0200. Message-ID: In article , Christian Corti writes: > No, there wasn't graphics in APL, but there were the so called Print/Plot > routines for both BASIC and APL that allowed to plot graphs and text on > the 5103 printer. I have the software and manuals somewhere. So did it have graphical display capability or not? I thought that the IBM PC line didn't get graphics capability until the CGA card came out. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 20 10:33:36 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:33:36 +0100 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4447A9D0.2050100@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Torch XXX I'll add to that the Quad-X and the Torch/Primagraphics workstation, which tend to be few and far between (not that there seem to be many Triple-X machines about these days - considering that lots were built, I don't know where they all went to) > You know, for all I have all those graphics systems, I still only have an > MDA text display on this PC... Hmm, didn't Trident release service information for their early (S)VGA boards (something like the 8900 boards)? Still custom logic on there that can fail I suppose, but it's a start... (out of interest, did IBM release full service information for their VGA card?) cheers Jules From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Apr 20 11:02:17 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 12:02:17 -0400 Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4447B089.9090801@atarimuseum.com> I think you meant 8278074345 These are around in decent numbers, the SX64 "Executive" is a nice portable computer for its time, Jack Tramiel - when he bought Atari proposed a similar product for Atari at the 1985 CES show called the Atari 65XEP which looked almost the same as the SX64 but in the next Atari grey "XE" plastic styling. Curt Dan Williams wrote: > I found one of these on ebay (8278074346). I have never seen or heard > of it before, does anyone here have one ? > > Dan > > > From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Apr 20 11:01:42 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:01:42 -0700 Subject: IBM Bus & Tag channel protocol specs? In-Reply-To: <44477FD7.6070700@gmail.com> References: <200604192216.42482.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44477FD7.6070700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4447B066.2070709@msm.umr.edu> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > You do know that the ARTIC960 parallel channel adapters Just Work(tm) > in AIX, right? > > Peace... Sridhar > > are the for hooking an aix box as a device to the mainframe, or vice versa? I believe there was discussion on the Hercules group, and there was no support for running Bus/Tag devices from AIX. It is meant to allow an AIX box to do something like support operations as a communications controller or other to the Mainframe. I believe that even IBM has put in dual interfaces on devices to allow them to be accessed from multiple hosts, such as tape libraries haveing both Bus / Tag for the mainframe (or Escon) as well as being scsi targets to the AIX boxes, etc. Bus/Tag is only one way, there is no way to have a device pretend to be a Host in the hookup, as far as the protocols and handshakes are concerned. That is why channel to channel adapters take 4 sets of hoses to do a connection between two mainframe, for example. Two (Bus/Tag) each way. Jim From jim.isbell at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 11:08:48 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:08:48 -0500 Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, I have one and it gets pulled out every christmas to go under the tree playing christmas carols. In its day it was quite a good computer. I had mine hooked up thru a homebrew interface to my 2 meter handi talkie and worked 2 meter Packet radio with it. I still have all the hardware but dont use 2 meters any more. On 4/20/06, Dan Williams wrote: > I found one of these on ebay (8278074346). I have never seen or heard > of it before, does anyone here have one ? > > Dan > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From kth at srv.net Thu Apr 20 12:02:22 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:02:22 -0600 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <4446F33B.5030501@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4446F33B.5030501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4447BE9E.2060708@srv.net> woodelf wrote: > Richard wrote: > >> Next you'll be asking me to define what I mean by "binary". > > I'm still working on unary :) Just make sure you don't do it on your shoes. From kth at srv.net Thu Apr 20 12:03:22 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:03:22 -0600 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <200604200351.k3K3pVbS013392@floodgap.com> References: <200604200351.k3K3pVbS013392@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4447BEDA.4010602@srv.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>You refused, and apparently still do, to define what YOU meant by >>>"display". >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >>Next you'll be asking me to define what I mean by "binary". >> >> > >There are 10 kinds of people when it comes to binary: those who know it, >and those who don't. > > There are 5 types of people: those who can count, and those who can't. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 20 12:31:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:31:57 -0600 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:17:41 +0100. <4447A615.3070002@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <4447A615.3070002 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > Wow, that's not bad at all. My Tek XD88's a couple of years later than that > (and they were considered pretty hot on the graphics front) and is only 8 > planes and the equivalent of 4 GE's. [...] My fully-loaded 1989 ESV has 88 bitplanes: 32-bit Z buffer 24-bit color, double-buffered 8-bit window ID 44 AT&T DSP32C processors for geometry processing custom pixel processor ASIC <-- I worked on that -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Apr 20 12:41:08 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:41:08 -0400 Subject: RainbowIDE 1.0 Available Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060420131621.01bfe300@mail.30below.com> Ohmygosh - On-Topic Commercial Plug Follows! If you can't handle ontopic stuff, or commercial stuff, look away now! ;-) Anyway, I offered to put a post on the cctalk list for Roger Taylor to let people know that he's released a new Integrated Development Environment called RainbowIDE that allows you to create new, exciting programs for many different classic machines out there. If there's a cross-assembler that runs on Windows for that processor, and M.E.S.S. can emulate the machine, then this is the rascal for you. I haven't had a chance to test RainbowIDE yet, but I have used it's predecessor - Portal-9, which is great for coding for the Tandy CoCo and/or Vectrex machines which are 6809-based. It's slicker than oil on water.[1] This new IDE can handle 6502, 6800/6809, Z80 and other CPUs, and you can assemble your code, spark up M.E.S.S, mount your virtual floppies and/or ROMs, and test them all with a single mouseclick. Yes, this does run on Winders, but it's designed for coding new proggies for classic machines (mostly 8-bit, but there might be some 16-bitters possible as well)... go check 'er out. http://www.rainbowide.com/ Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] My affiliation with Roger Taylor are solely as a very satisfied customer, and we have the same first name. I'm *way* too ugly to be a "compensated endorser." ;-) -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Apr 20 12:39:38 2006 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 10:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 1965 DEC Logic Trainer In-Reply-To: <4447BEDA.4010602@srv.net> Message-ID: I plan to offer this on eBay this weekend, but I thought I'd give the list sort of an auction preview before I do. If there's anybody in the Seattle area willing to make a serious offer and pick this up from Bainbridge Island, I'd certainly consider offers. Date codes are from 1965. It has several straight-8 era flip chips plugged in. Includes an 18-bit set of indicator lights which aren't clear in the photo since they need an attachment screw tightened. The chassis appears to be made by a third-party. http://blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/dec/logic/front.jpg http://blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/dec/logic/back.jpg From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Apr 20 12:43:21 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 10:43:21 -0700 Subject: KM11 replica Message-ID: <1145555001.8141.4.camel@r003519> Hi, Just to keep everyone updated, I've received the corrected overlays. So any overlays that are now ordered will come with the correct overlays. Those who've received overlays previously will get replacements (free/no shipping). I also have 3 new overlays as well. An overlay for using the KM11 with an RX01 and a pair of overlays for the RK11-C. The website (www.shiresoft.com/products) has been updated to reflect the availability of the new overlays and the pricing. Thanks. -- TTFN - Guy From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Apr 20 12:40:29 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:40:29 -0400 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <200604192103340090.7DBA9B0E@10.0.0.252> References: <20060417222142.YLOK8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200604192334.45273.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604192103340090.7DBA9B0E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200604201340.29489.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 20 April 2006 12:03 am, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/19/2006 at 11:34 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> But a Z80 *won't* run 808[05] code. > > Well, a Z80 will run 8085 code that limits itself to 8080 instructions. > But the 8085 has two documented instructions (RIM SIM) that the 8080 > doesn't have-- Yeah, I remember those two... > and a few more "undocumented" instructions (nonetheless used by many > embedded programs) that neither the 8080 nor the Z80 has. I remember some real early magazine articles, and have since found a bit of stuff online, that talked about undocumented opcodes for the z80, but I've not run across that info for anything else. And it seems to depend a lot on what brand of chip, etc. so I've never been really tempted to use them. > Initially I thought that the Rabbit was a good idea--until I started to > program it. What did you do with (insert a list of instructions)? And an > interesting bug or two. Feh. I haven't yet looked at that, got enough going on here to keep me busy... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Apr 20 12:49:47 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 10:49:47 -0700 Subject: Cosmetic replicas Message-ID: <1145555388.8141.12.camel@r003519> Hi, I wanted to let you folks know that I'm getting pricing on having some cosmetic parts made up. Here's what I'm going for: * 11/20 front panel plexis. These will be the original colors and be an exact replica of the original 11/20 front panel plexi. It be identical in every way to the original (except that it will look *new*). * H960 header panel inserts. Right now I'm getting quotes for the blank magenta/red and the D|I|G|I|T|A|L PDP-11 inserts. However, I also expect to be able to have produced the yellow/brown and PDP-8E inserts as well. Note that these are *not* the plasic header panels but are the inserts that go in them. As soon as I have pricing I'll let y'all know. It should be in a couple of days. -- TTFN - Guy From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Apr 20 13:02:38 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:02:38 -0400 Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200604201402.38571.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 20 April 2006 10:01 am, Dan Williams wrote: > I found one of these on ebay (8278074346). I have never seen or heard > of it before, does anyone here have one ? Are you talking about the SX-64? I don't have one, but wouldn't mind if one were to come my way. I always thought they were kinda nifty... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Apr 20 13:06:27 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:06:27 -0400 Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: <189d921a4e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <200604201407.k3KE7RrK018110@floodgap.com> <189d921a4e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <200604201406.27267.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 20 April 2006 10:37 am, Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message <200604201407.k3KE7RrK018110 at floodgap.com> > > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > If you mean the SX-64, yes, I have three of them (and I am looking for a > > spare keyboard [cable not necessary but appreciated] if anyone has a dud > > SX-64 and is willing to part it out). They are not amazingly common but > > they are actually not terribly difficult to find either. However, they > > have started to command rather disappointingly high prices even for > > non-mint models. > > Are there any custom ICs in there - custom defined as "not found in a > garden-variety breadbox Commodore 64"? Hardware-wise, how do the two > machines compare (besides the obvious "the SX64 has a built in monitor and > disc drives")? > > I know there's the SID and VIC; I was wondering if the drives were > implemented as "guts of a 1541 strapped to the chassis" or custom ICs > integrated onto the mainboard. One of the ROMs is a different part number, which gives slightly different default screen colors, but I know that in repairing one the ROM out of a C64 can also be used. There are also differences in the drive, for sure, but it's been long enough since I've been into one that I don't remember what those are off the top of my head. I do have a service manual for those around here someplace, I used to fix them, along with a lot of other C= stuff... Anybody looking for any c= parts? Drop me a note off-list. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From allain at panix.com Thu Apr 20 13:11:34 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:11:34 -0400 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? References: Message-ID: <008c01c664a5$dc59ec60$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> >> No, there wasn't graphics in APL, but there were the so called Print/Plot >> routines for both BASIC and APL that allowed to plot graphs and text on >> the 5103 printer. I have the software and manuals somewhere. > So did it have graphical display capability or not? I thought that > the IBM PC line didn't get graphics capability until the CGA card came > out. 5100 isn't really PC line. I spent hours in the manuals back 35 years ago to reach the conclusion that some kind of subcharacter plotting was available in 5100 APL. Now I have neither the manuals nor the machine so I can't prove anything. It's possible that an 'Advanced 5100 BASIC' manual told of some kind of dot matrix printing too, and that manual just wasn't in that lab with the computer. John A. From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Apr 20 13:35:56 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:35:56 -0400 Subject: RainbowIDE 1.0 Available Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060420131621.01bfe300@mail.30below.com> Ohmygosh - On-Topic Commercial Plug Follows! If you can't handle ontopic stuff, or commercial stuff, look away now! ;-) Anyway, I offered to put a post on the cctalk list for Roger Taylor to let people know that he's released a new Integrated Development Environment called RainbowIDE that allows you to create new, exciting programs for many different classic machines out there. If there's a cross-assembler that runs on Windows for that processor, and M.E.S.S. can emulate the machine, then this is the rascal for you. I haven't had a chance to test RainbowIDE yet, but I have used it's predecessor - Portal-9, which is great for coding for the Tandy CoCo and/or Vectrex machines which are 6809-based. It's slicker than oil on water.[1] This new IDE can handle 6502, 6800/6809, Z80 and other CPUs, and you can assemble your code, spark up M.E.S.S, mount your virtual floppies and/or ROMs, and test them all with a single mouseclick. Yes, this does run on Winders, but it's designed for coding new proggies for classic machines (mostly 8-bit, but there might be some 16-bitters possible as well)... go check 'er out. http://www.rainbowide.com/ Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] My affiliation with Roger Taylor are solely as a very satisfied customer, and we have the same first name. I'm *way* too ugly to be a "compensated endorser." ;-) -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 20 13:54:32 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:54:32 -0500 Subject: IBM Bus & Tag channel protocol specs? References: <200604192216.42482.pat@computer-refuge.org><44477FD7.6070700@gmail.com> <4447B066.2070709@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <003f01c664ab$dcacb890$6500a8c0@BILLING> It was written.... > are the for hooking an aix box as a device to the mainframe, or vice > versa? Well, obviously the idea is to be able to interface b&t connected devices into hercules.... and since generic clone PC's running hercules wouldn't support the ARTIC card..... Jay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 20 13:39:00 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 19:39:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dueling HP's: 1350A vs 1351A In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Apr 19, 6 04:27:38 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > I only have the HP1350, but I can describe that and hopefully somebody > > else can describe the 1351 and we can figure out the differences. > > I have the 1351A. It sounds identical to the 1350A that you describe: > no processor, TTL logic and memory with a set of DACs for the X, Y and > Z outputs to the display. > > Mine has an RS-232 input, not the HPIB input. It appears that the > input circuitry is a swappable daughter board that slides into the > back of the 1351. That's like the 1350 too. IIRC, the HP1350 contains a total of 8 PCBs : A large one on top of the chassis plate containing the RAM, DACs [1], vector geenrator, etc The slide-in interface board Another board alongside it under the chassis which contains, IIRC, part of the Z-control circuit A power supply (rectifiers, regulators, etc), mounted on top of the chassis plate at the front A backplane into which the above boards fit. It stands vertically, parallel to the front panel, behind the PSU area A daugjhterboard to the vector generator PCB containing the character generator ROMs, etc A little board on the back of the front panel containing the LEDs A little board that carries the mains swtich and connects the transformer primary winding, the voltage selector, etc/ Is that like the HP1351? The boards all have (IIRC) 01350-xxxxx part numbers. Do any of the boards in the 1351 have such numbers (which would indictate they werr likely to be originally used in the 1350, or are they all 01351-xxxxx parts? [1] In the HP1350, the top 6 bits of each of the 10 bit X and Y DACs have presets to adjust them (!). There are thus 2 rows of 6 presets on the main PCB. From their appearance, and the function they perform, they were named the 'grpaghic equaliser' by certain UK HP enthusiasts (!). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 20 13:41:55 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 19:41:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <20060419155724.O49091@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 19, 6 03:59:44 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, Richard wrote: > > Sheesh. I know this list likes to take things off-topic at the drop > > of a hat, but this is a little extreme. In my first call for > > responses I clearly stated I was talking about and it very clearly had > > nothing to do with fountain pens. > > Sorry > most of the plotters that I've had used Rapidograph pens (or equivalent) My plotters are rather later, and tend to use fibre-tipped pens :-( To add some useful (?) content to this message, a Rotring Rapidograph pen (with the barrel removed) will screw into the pen carriage on a Tektronix 4661 or 4662 plotter. Use the threads on the pen that normally hold the cap, of course. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 20 13:48:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 19:48:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1350 vs 1351 In-Reply-To: <44472EE0.3090800@sbcglobal.net> from "Bob Rosenbloom" at Apr 19, 6 11:49:04 pm Message-ID: > > I have both the 1350A and 1351A. The main difference is the 1351A has > more memory, 8000 vectors VS 2000 vectors, and 64 files VS 32 files. Presumably it uses 16K DRAMs, rather than the 4K ones used in the 1350. > Also, My 1350A only address 1000 x1000 resolution and the 1351A 1020 X Are you sure about that? I could have sworn the 1350 was 1024*1023 resolution (10 bits/axis, with 'all ones' as one particular coordinate indicating that the 10 bits of other coordinate are a character code + attiributes) -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 14:08:24 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:08:24 -0400 Subject: IBM Bus & Tag channel protocol specs? In-Reply-To: <4447B066.2070709@msm.umr.edu> References: <200604192216.42482.pat@computer-refuge.org> <44477FD7.6070700@gmail.com> <4447B066.2070709@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4447DC28.1040707@gmail.com> jim stephens wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> >> You do know that the ARTIC960 parallel channel adapters Just Work(tm) >> in AIX, right? >> >> Peace... Sridhar >> >> > are the for hooking an aix box as a device to the mainframe, or vice versa? > > I believe there was discussion on the Hercules group, and there was no > support for running Bus/Tag devices from AIX. It is meant to allow an AIX box to do > something like support operations as a communications controller or other to the Mainframe. That's not the only configuration that works. If you're running mainframe OS on a P/390, the P/390 can address the ARTIC960 as a parallel channel inside the OS. > I believe that even IBM has put in dual interfaces on devices to allow > them to be accessed from multiple hosts, such as tape libraries haveing both Bus / > Tag for the mainframe (or Escon) as well as being scsi targets to the AIX boxes, etc. There are plenty of devices like that. On the other hand, there are plenty of devices that aren't. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 14:09:24 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:09:24 -0400 Subject: IBM Bus & Tag channel protocol specs? In-Reply-To: <003f01c664ab$dcacb890$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <200604192216.42482.pat@computer-refuge.org><44477FD7.6070700@gmail.com> <4447B066.2070709@msm.umr.edu> <003f01c664ab$dcacb890$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4447DC64.9070704@gmail.com> Jay West wrote: > It was written.... >> are the for hooking an aix box as a device to the mainframe, or vice >> versa? > Well, obviously the idea is to be able to interface b&t connected > devices into hercules.... and since generic clone PC's running hercules > wouldn't support the ARTIC card..... But the P/390 does. And if you need more horsepower than can be provided by a P/390E, then you can set up an emulated mainframe with Hercules addressing the peripherals attached to the P/390 over the network. Peace... Sridhar From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Apr 20 03:04:38 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:04:38 +0100 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 19 Apr 2006 18:09:09 MDT." Message-ID: <200604200804.JAA31357@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Richard said: > > In article <20060419155724.O49091 at shell.lmi.net>, > Fred Cisin writes: > > > Would you prefer only CRTs? > > As I said in the first post: > > "graphics display system" is anything that creates a graphics image > with a display: calligraphic, storage tube, plasma, raster, etc. > Block character graphics don't count (or I would include my Commodore > CBM 8032 and all the stupid terminals :). > > Fountain pens, smeared chocolate on paper and all other sorts of > nonsense clearly doesn't fit the definition. Oh wait, I guess I > mistook this list for discussion of classic computing, sorry! And it depends what you mean by "graphics". Edsac (1949) could display primitive graphics on a 32x16 pixel 2-colour display. OXO, a Tic-Tac-Toe program by A S Douglas in 1952, displayed the moves graphically. But I doubt if anyone in the group has an EDSAC! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 20 14:55:21 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:55:21 -0500 Subject: IBM Bus & Tag channel protocol specs? References: <200604192216.42482.pat@computer-refuge.org><44477FD7.6070700@gmail.com> <4447B066.2070709@msm.umr.edu><003f01c664ab$dcacb890$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4447DC64.9070704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00fa01c664b4$5b73e290$6500a8c0@BILLING> Sridhar wrote.... > But the P/390 does. And if you need more horsepower than can be provided > by a P/390E, then you can set up an emulated mainframe with Hercules > addressing the peripherals attached to the P/390 over the network. I'm confused. I thought the P/390 didn't have any bus & tag connectors on it.... in addition, it's a microchannel card right? Making it less likely to run in a common PC? I just skimmed some docs on the P/390 and don't see any way that bus & tag devices hook up to it? Jay From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 15:02:51 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:02:51 -0400 Subject: IBM Bus & Tag channel protocol specs? In-Reply-To: <00fa01c664b4$5b73e290$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <200604192216.42482.pat@computer-refuge.org><44477FD7.6070700@gmail.com> <4447B066.2070709@msm.umr.edu><003f01c664ab$dcacb890$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4447DC64.9070704@gmail.com> <00fa01c664b4$5b73e290$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4447E8EB.6010909@gmail.com> Jay West wrote: > Sridhar wrote.... >> But the P/390 does. And if you need more horsepower than can be >> provided by a P/390E, then you can set up an emulated mainframe with >> Hercules addressing the peripherals attached to the P/390 over the >> network. > > I'm confused. I thought the P/390 didn't have any bus & tag connectors > on it.... in addition, it's a microchannel card right? Making it less > likely to run in a common PC? > > I just skimmed some docs on the P/390 and don't see any way that bus & > tag devices hook up to it? You put a P/390 on the same bus (PCI or MCA) as an ARTIC960 card and the P/390 can busmaster and take over the ARTIC960 card. The ARTIC960 then appears as a channel in the mainframe. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 15:03:13 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:03:13 -0400 Subject: IBM Bus & Tag channel protocol specs? In-Reply-To: <00fa01c664b4$5b73e290$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <200604192216.42482.pat@computer-refuge.org><44477FD7.6070700@gmail.com> <4447B066.2070709@msm.umr.edu><003f01c664ab$dcacb890$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4447DC64.9070704@gmail.com> <00fa01c664b4$5b73e290$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4447E901.3030808@gmail.com> Jay West wrote: > Sridhar wrote.... >> But the P/390 does. And if you need more horsepower than can be >> provided by a P/390E, then you can set up an emulated mainframe with >> Hercules addressing the peripherals attached to the P/390 over the >> network. > > I'm confused. I thought the P/390 didn't have any bus & tag connectors > on it.... in addition, it's a microchannel card right? Making it less > likely to run in a common PC? And it comes in PCI too. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 20 15:07:44 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:07:44 -0600 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:04:38 +0100. <200604200804.JAA31357@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: In article <200604200804.JAA31357 at citadel.metropolis.local>, Stan Barr writes: > [...] Edsac (1949) could > display primitive graphics on a 32x16 pixel 2-colour display. > OXO, a Tic-Tac-Toe program by A S Douglas in 1952, displayed > the moves graphically. > But I doubt if anyone in the group has an EDSAC! Wow! I hadn't heard of this before. What was the display technology? And by "2-colour" do you really mean it was a color display with foreground and background, or do you mean it was a black and white display with full-intensity-on and intensity-off style 'colors'? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 20 15:10:21 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:10:21 -0600 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:04:38 +0100. <200604200804.JAA31357@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: Ah... WikiPedia knows all about EDSAC. I should have looked there first! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Apr 20 15:12:01 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:12:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cosmetic replicas In-Reply-To: <1145555388.8141.12.camel@r003519> Message-ID: > * 11/20 front panel plexis. These will be the original colors and > be an exact replica of the original 11/20 front panel plexi. It > be identical in every way to the original (except that it will > look *new*). > * H960 header panel inserts. Right now I'm getting quotes for the > blank magenta/red and the D|I|G|I|T|A|L PDP-11 inserts. > However, I also expect to be able to have produced the > yellow/brown and PDP-8E inserts as well. Note that these are > *not* the plasic header panels but are the inserts that go in > them. And we know you are going to do the right and ethical thing and put a very small, out of the way phrase somewhere on each one - "Replica Panel 2006" will do. They can even be in a place where they are hidden when installed. Right? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Apr 20 15:14:50 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM Bus & Tag channel protocol specs? In-Reply-To: <00fa01c664b4$5b73e290$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: > I'm confused. I thought the P/390 didn't have any bus & tag connectors on > it.... in addition, it's a microchannel card right? Making it less likely to > run in a common PC? > > I just skimmed some docs on the P/390 and don't see any way that bus & tag > devices hook up to it? On a related note - anyone have the docs for the card that fits inside an AT to make it look like a Bus and Tag device (namely, the 8232)? Might be a way to do cheap and cheesy emulation of things using crappy PeeCees. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Apr 20 15:19:09 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:19:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM Bus & Tag channel protocol specs? (more begging) In-Reply-To: <4447B066.2070709@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: > That is why channel to channel adapters take 4 sets of hoses to do a > connection > between two mainframe, for example. Two (Bus/Tag) each way. I suppose it is a good time for me to beg for Bus and Tag cables, if anyone has any extras. Sometimes they can be found buried in computer room raised floors, because nobody wanted to fish them out. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ssj152 at charter.net Thu Apr 20 15:36:48 2006 From: ssj152 at charter.net (Stuart Johnson) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:36:48 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 32, Issue 38 In-Reply-To: <200604191659.k3JGxoFp048949@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002501c664ba$261cbcb0$8e00a8c0@badddog> Lyle, 1) I would appreciate it if you do NOT post ON-LIST any of the contents of any private email I have sent to you, no matter how harmless you deem the content. It simply is not appropriate. If I want it posted, I will start the conversation that way or respond to an on-list message. FWI - I sent it directly to you so spare you of any possible adverse response being shown on-line, not that I thought there would be any. 2) I also offered to assist you in this project. Look through the initial responses to your post announcing the availability of these items. As I recall, several people offered to help. 3) The effort you are making to regenerate the sources of TSX-Plus is admirable. It is quite some job to be a one-man project leader, architect, and primary worker - plus work full time and have an actual life. I know from personal experience in a "former" life. 4) Why is it necessary to rebuild TSX-Plus from source before you can share it with hobbyists? Are the binaries non-existent or not usable? If I understood the scope of the problem, perhaps I (and others?) would be more supportive. Please don't misunderstand - resurrecting TSX-Plus and utilities is a neat thing to do, but how does it fit in with your earlier announcement? Stuart J ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 07:20:36 -0700 From: Lyle Bickley Subject: Re: TSX sources, distribution, etc. To: "Stuart Johnson" Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <200604190720.36844.lbickley at bickleywest.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Stuart, On Tuesday 18 April 2006 22:08, you wrote: > It has been many months since you promised to release the TSX archives. How > about sending or putting online for download exactly what you received? > Isn't that what you told the author at S&H what you were going to do? The source listings are already up on bitsavers - and one of my DCL (DEC Computer Lunch) buddies here in SV has written a special OCR program that is scanning the listings to re-create the original MACRO sources of TSX. So there's plenty going on (no commitments on that totally happening, timing, etc.). > This is ridiculous. Should I approach S&H myself, on behalf of all of the > other interested parties? "Ridiculous" is in the mind of the beholder. Yes, I could have taken the time to put up the TSX website as opposed to obtaining every RL02 pack and SMD drive I could from S&H, preserving the contents, etc. But I figured that "exercise", which took weeks of my time was more important than "releasing" TSX code. I'm required under my agreement with S&H to have a website where I can "log" and "verify" to a reasonable extent that only hobbiests will be downloading the system, etc. I am committed to getting TSX into the hands of the "folks" - but I estimate that it will take a week or so of my time - contiguous - to do it. That hasn't happened yet - but I promise it will. Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 20 15:41:53 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:41:53 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <200604201340.29489.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <20060417222142.YLOK8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200604192334.45273.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604192103340090.7DBA9B0E@10.0.0.252> <200604201340.29489.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200604201341530495.814C9A1B@10.0.0.252> On 4/20/2006 at 1:40 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >I remember some real early magazine articles, and have since found a bit >of stuff online, that talked about undocumented opcodes for the z80, but >I've not run across that info for anything else. And it seems to depend a lot >on what brand of chip, etc. so I've never been really tempted to use them. Well, since the information seems to be disappearing from the web in favor of the "multiple copies of a dumb page" documentation, here they are for your files: 08 DSUB HL = HL - BC Subtract BC from HL 10 ARHL HL = HL/2 Arithmetic right shift HL, (Low order bit to Carry) 18 RDEL DE = DE rotate left 1 Rotate DE left, High order bit to carry 20 RIM (You already know about this one) 28 LDHI DE = HL+imm Load DE with HL + immediate value 30 SIM (You already know about this one) 38 LDSI DE=SP+imm Load DE with SP + immediate value CB RSTV Restart to 40H if overflow D9 SHLX (DE) = HL Store HL in the location pointed to by DE DD JN5 jump if Flags(5) clear Jump if bit 5 of flags is clear ED LHLX HL = (DE) Load HL from the location pointed to by DE FD J5 jump if Flags(5) set Jump if bit 5 of flags is set Flag bit 5 is sometimes called the K flag (for Korrect sign). AFAIK, all Intel 8085 versions have these implemented. I've heard that the NEC versions don't, but haven't verified it. But I note that one way to tell an 8085 from an 8080 or Z80 is to attempt to set bits 3 and 5 of the flags register. The 8080 forces both of these to 0; the Z80 allows both to be set. The 8085 allows setting of bit 5 only. For what it's worth, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 20 15:42:21 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:42:21 -0600 Subject: DEC M3134-PA DS500 module Message-ID: A module list I scrounged off the net says this: M3134-PA DS500 Q IBM Terminal server, 4 port (DECServer 500) Now we were just talking about how in order to hook up an IBM terminal to something, you'd have to hook up an IBM box. This seems to indicate that you could do otherwise and it would work? The module ports are BNC style coax it appears. Does anyone have any familiarity with this module? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 15:54:36 2006 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:54:36 -0700 Subject: M4 9914 Manuals Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90604201354n30ce989er9fcf185c15285de3@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone have M4 9914 9-track tape drive manuals? This came up back in January. Maybe someone found some since then. The M4 Data website is now useless and I don't see any manuals on Bitsavers. I did manage to grab these two .PDF manuals from the M4 Data website quite a while ago. If someone wants to post these somewhere, tell me where to send them: 124658 SUPER SCSI INTERFACE USER MANUAL (350KB) 123477/CM1077 USER/DIAGNOSTIC MANUAL (425KB) Apparently these other manuals were available. If anyone has these I'd like to get a copy of the Pertec and regular SCSI manuals. 116293 9914 Tape Unit Product Specification (sets out the features and capabilities of the 9914) 121780 SCSI User Manual (describes the command set and options) 121789 Cached Pertec Interface Product Description (describes the features, control and capabilities of the buffer) 123477 9914 Tape Unit Servicing Manual (CM 1078) (provides fault-finding suggestions, configuration change details, diagnostic program listings, and servicing procedures) From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Apr 20 15:59:33 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:59:33 -0700 Subject: Cosmetic replicas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1145566773.8141.47.camel@r003519> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 16:12 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > * 11/20 front panel plexis. These will be the original colors and > > be an exact replica of the original 11/20 front panel plexi. It > > be identical in every way to the original (except that it will > > look *new*). > > * H960 header panel inserts. Right now I'm getting quotes for the > > blank magenta/red and the D|I|G|I|T|A|L PDP-11 inserts. > > However, I also expect to be able to have produced the > > yellow/brown and PDP-8E inserts as well. Note that these are > > *not* the plasic header panels but are the inserts that go in > > them. > > And we know you are going to do the right and ethical thing and put a very > small, out of the way phrase somewhere on each one - "Replica Panel 2006" > will do. They can even be in a place where they are hidden when installed. > > Right? The actual construction is sufficiently different from the original that it will be "obvious" that these are replicas and not originals (but from the front it'll be pretty close). The original panels are a single piece of plexi. The back side is painted to create the light mask. The front side is painted in 3 colors and then a "clear coat" is applied for protection (this is what ages on these things). The replica panels will be 2 piece construction (you'll see it as one piece) where the thickness of the panel is a clear plexi cut to shape (with all of the appropriate cut outs). The legends/mask etc are applied to the back of a 10mil piece of polycarbonate that has a very strong adhesive applied. The two pieces are then pressed together. The wear characteristics will be much better since the painted bits are behind 10mils of polycarbonate vs a thin layer of clear paint. The polycarbonate has been selected to produce a matte finish much like the original. But seriously, I hadn't thought of that. Before they go for production (ie when I get proofs back), I'll have a "tag" put in to make it *even* more obvious. -- TTFN - Guy From Useddec at aol.com Thu Apr 20 16:00:17 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:00:17 EDT Subject: DEC M3134-PA DS500 module Message-ID: <3be.a9a242.31795061@aol.com> The M3134 is a DEC board and your description sounds right. The -PA just indicates "S box" handles. Paul From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Apr 20 16:09:49 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:09:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cosmetic replicas In-Reply-To: <1145566773.8141.47.camel@r003519> Message-ID: > The actual construction is sufficiently different from the original that > it will be "obvious" that these are replicas and not originals (but from > the front it'll be pretty close). Will people remember this 50 years from now? It sounds like a stupid analogy, but what if some kid does a masters on computer front panels 50 years from now, and inspects some PDP-11s... > But seriously, I hadn't thought of that. Before they go for production > (ie when I get proofs back), I'll have a "tag" put in to make it *even* > more obvious. Most people do not know this, so I do not blame you. It is common museum practice when restoring objects. It does not have to be fancy - you could even scratch it in with a diamond engraver. I applaud that you accept the idea, because I know of several others that have been downright offended by the thought. Why? I still do not know. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 20 16:14:29 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:14:29 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 32, Issue 38 Message-ID: > I would appreciate it if you do NOT post ON-LIST any of the contents of > any private email I have sent to you The message Lyle was repsonding to was sent to the ENTIRE LIST before he replied. > FWI - I sent it > directly to you so spare you of any possible adverse response being shown > on-line I doubt he received any. What exactly is YOUR concern about all of this such that YOU planned to contact S&H directly? From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Apr 20 16:19:37 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:19:37 -0400 Subject: IBM Bus & Tag channel protocol specs? In-Reply-To: <4447DC28.1040707@gmail.com> References: <200604192216.42482.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4447B066.2070709@msm.umr.edu> <4447DC28.1040707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200604201719.37774.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 20 April 2006 15:08, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > jim stephens wrote: > > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> > >> You do know that the ARTIC960 parallel channel adapters Just > >> Work(tm) in AIX, right? > >> > >> Peace... Sridhar > > > > are the for hooking an aix box as a device to the mainframe, or > > vice versa? > > > > I believe there was discussion on the Hercules group, and there was > > no support for running Bus/Tag devices from AIX. It is meant to > > allow an AIX box to do something like support operations as a > > communications controller or other to the Mainframe. > > That's not the only configuration that works. If you're running > mainframe OS on a P/390, the P/390 can address the ARTIC960 as a > parallel channel inside the OS. If I either the P/390 or ARTIC960 were easily/cheaply available, I might consider this. But, I would rather create something that can be cheaply duplicated, and not be fixed to a host hardware platform. I'd rather run Hercules on a Linux PC (or some UNIX box), or use a real S/390 (or ES/9000) that I've got than bother with acquiring an expensive, slow, and hard to find P/390 or R/390. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 20 16:23:54 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:23:54 -0500 Subject: DEC M3134-PA DS500 module References: Message-ID: <016901c664c0$ba7adb70$6500a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote.... >A module list I scrounged off the net says this: > > M3134-PA DS500 Q IBM Terminal server, 4 port (DECServer 500) Let me say first that I am not at all familiar with the M3134. However, I think you're missing the basic concept here. The IBM coax terminals do not speak ascii, nor do they speak RS232. Nor are they character based like ANY and EVERY terminal you've probably delt with before. The electrical spec isn't similar to RS232 but current loop... it is a fundamentally different thing. These terminals are not only block mode, they speak a VERY robust protocol between the host and the display. It would be quite difficult to make sense out of the datastream between the terminal and host in a character based environment. Again, while I don't know for sure... I would bet some cash that the M3134 probably provided an electronic connection for the terminals, you probably had to do a world of programming on your own to actually talk to those units. And you probably had to develop your own protocol for dealing with fields/pages being sent back and forth. Perhaps DEC supplied a toolkit for doing so. But in any case, I suspect that even with their tools, you would NOT get a RSTS logon prompt on one just by using this card and writing a little code. You probably would get a toolkit that you could use to send and receive a page at a time to the terminal... basically you'd probably get an I/O device under program control. Jay From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 20 16:24:22 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060420135155.J1180@shell.lmi.net> > > [5100] > > No, there wasn't graphics in APL, but there were the so called Print/Plot > > routines for both BASIC and APL that allowed to plot graphs and text on > > the 5103 printer. I have the software and manuals somewhere. On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Richard wrote: > So did it have graphical display capability or not? I thought that > the IBM PC line didn't get graphics capability until the CGA card came > out. It is quite true that the CGA card was the first graphics of the IBM PC line. It was announced simultaneously with the 5150 PC (mid August 1981) BUT! The 5100 was not the IBM PC line. They were about as closely connected (in different directions) as the PC v the IBM Workpad (Palm Pilot), the Macintosh v the Apple ][, and the Amiga v the Pet, than the 5100 is like the PC. 1970, I saw a one-off NASA vector graphics display that consisted of a Tektronix scope, connected to a somewhat oversized prototype adapter that did D to A from tape based data. People were using the Gerber "Etch-a-sketch from hell" digitizer to punch card decks for pictures. The first "naked lady" picture on it resulted in rules and regulations. In those days, graphics to us meant Calcomp plotters, and SC/SD 4020/4060 printer/plotters that output directly to 16mm film. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Apr 20 15:47:24 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:47:24 -0700 Subject: IBM Bus & Tag channel protocol specs? In-Reply-To: <4447E8EB.6010909@gmail.com> References: <200604192216.42482.pat@computer-refuge.org><44477FD7.6070700@gmail.com> <4447B066.2070709@msm.umr.edu><003f01c664ab$dcacb890$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4447DC64.9070704@gmail.com> <00fa01c664b4$5b73e290$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4447E8EB.6010909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4447F35C.7010909@msm.umr.edu> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Jay West wrote: > >> Sridhar wrote.... >> > > You put a P/390 on the same bus (PCI or MCA) as an ARTIC960 card and > the P/390 can busmaster and take over the ARTIC960 card. The ARTIC960 > then appears as a channel in the mainframe. I am not at all familiar with the RTIC libraries, but what I have, I would not infer that the libraries can do what the P/390's LIC can do. I remember discussions with Marty Ziskind at the first show that they came to and they not only cooked the code for what they did with the I/O for channels, etc, but also ran their own specialized Token ring code libraries, to allow them to use unused token ring features for their CTCA emulated between P/370's ( later P/390 ) (no I'm not talking about the AT/370, but the first cards were not 390). So if those libraries have both ends of the hose available, all I'm saying is that it would be nice to know where that is, just to see what it does. On the Hercules group discussion, this was put down as not feasible for reasons I will have to sift thru a lot of postings there to find. The only hardware solution was the third party one used by Flex, I think. Again, this assumes that you want to write your own code and use the hardware like this. That turns out to be very different than what IBM can do with the same hardware and their software on the same pile a lot of times. Jim From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 16:37:04 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:37:04 -0400 Subject: IBM Bus & Tag channel protocol specs? In-Reply-To: <200604201719.37774.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200604192216.42482.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4447B066.2070709@msm.umr.edu> <4447DC28.1040707@gmail.com> <200604201719.37774.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4447FF00.9030304@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > If I either the P/390 or ARTIC960 were easily/cheaply available, I might > consider this. But, I would rather create something that can be > cheaply duplicated, and not be fixed to a host hardware platform. The ARTIC960 is definitely available cheaply and easily. I once bought a box of about fifty. I sold them off piece by piece. And I know they're still available. The P/390 hardware/software combination can probably used to leverage support for the ARTIC960 in Hercules. > I'd rather run Hercules on a Linux PC (or some UNIX box), or use a real > S/390 (or ES/9000) that I've got than bother with acquiring an > expensive, slow, and hard to find P/390 or R/390. It's actually pretty surprising the speed you can get with a P/390E card on some of the harder-to-emulate operations that the P/390E does in hardware. In any case, if you feel the compulsion to write support for the ARTIC960 in Hercules, I'd be happy to lend you a P/390 or two (and software) to speed you on your way. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 16:57:02 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:57:02 -0400 Subject: IBM Bus & Tag channel protocol specs? In-Reply-To: <4447F35C.7010909@msm.umr.edu> References: <200604192216.42482.pat@computer-refuge.org><44477FD7.6070700@gmail.com> <4447B066.2070709@msm.umr.edu><003f01c664ab$dcacb890$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4447DC64.9070704@gmail.com> <00fa01c664b4$5b73e290$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4447E8EB.6010909@gmail.com> <4447F35C.7010909@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <444803AE.2030204@gmail.com> jim stephens wrote: >> You put a P/390 on the same bus (PCI or MCA) as an ARTIC960 card and >> the P/390 can busmaster and take over the ARTIC960 card. The ARTIC960 >> then appears as a channel in the mainframe. > > I am not at all familiar with the RTIC libraries, but what I have, I > would not > infer that the libraries can do what the P/390's LIC can do. I remember > discussions with Marty Ziskind at the first show that they came to and they > not only cooked the code for what they did with the I/O for channels, > etc, but also ran their own specialized Token ring code libraries, to allow > them to use unused token ring features for their CTCA emulated between > P/370's ( later P/390 ) (no I'm not talking about the AT/370, but the > first > cards were not 390). The way the ARTIC960 cards and the P/390 LIC code work are very different. ARTIC960 isn't simply a library. It's a card with an i960 running custom firmware to emulate a complete channel processor. > Again, this assumes that you want to write your own code and use the > hardware like this. That turns out to be very different than what IBM > can do with the same hardware and their software on the same pile a > lot of times. I know for a fact that IBM's off-the-shelf code can use an ARTIC960 Parallel Channel to talk to a channel-attached peripheral, because I've used it for that purpose. Both at home and at work. The ARTIC960 Parallel Channel Adapter was even sold specifically for that purpose in a combination package with the P/390 PCI. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 20 16:59:39 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:59:39 -0600 Subject: DEC M3134-PA DS500 module In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:23:54 -0500. <016901c664c0$ba7adb70$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <016901c664c0$ba7adb70$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > Let me say first that I am not at all familiar with the M3134. [...] Me neither and I understand the problems you've outlined, which is why I want to find someone who is familiar with the M3134 so I can find out how much of the puzzle it solves. Right now I don't even have electrical connectivity! I'm working on this problem, which is why I'm curious to know more about this module. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 20 17:01:33 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:01:33 -0600 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:24:22 -0700. <20060420135155.J1180@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20060420135155.J1180 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > BUT! > The 5100 was not the IBM PC line. Is the 5100 the RT RISC-based one? I remember seeing one of those at udel in the 82-86 time frame and I recall it had windowing, bitmap graphics, etc. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Apr 20 17:12:12 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:12:12 -0700 Subject: IBM Bus & Tag channel protocol specs? In-Reply-To: <4447FF00.9030304@gmail.com> References: <200604192216.42482.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4447B066.2070709@msm.umr.edu> <4447DC28.1040707@gmail.com> <200604201719.37774.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4447FF00.9030304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4448073C.6080600@msm.umr.edu> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: for what it's worth, the P/390 only ever ran tape drives and only drove selector channel protocol. It never ran any DASD due to protocol limitations, and the fact that it was too slow to be useful, when emulated storage thru the token ring ran faster. My friend who has both versions only remembered seeing a version of the Host version of the cards and cables for the Micro Channel version, and not for the PCI. Univac supported the host version on the PCI card set. IBM systems with P/390's were more likely to be in Escon farms than in bus / tag. The R/390's may have been more likely to be in sites with SSA available, which IBM was pushing at the time the P/390's were in vogue. Therefore less likely to see Escon versions of that hardware or the Bus/Tag versions. I don't think this is a bad idea, but I don't think that the solution exists in a form that can be bought, even if IBM had it in some product. Jim From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 17:18:36 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:18:36 -0400 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <444808BC.3050209@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <20060420135155.J1180 at shell.lmi.net>, > Fred Cisin writes: > >> BUT! >> The 5100 was not the IBM PC line. > > Is the 5100 the RT RISC-based one? I remember seeing one of those at > udel in the 82-86 time frame and I recall it had windowing, bitmap > graphics, etc. Much earlier than that. It was based on a 16-bit processor called the PALM. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 17:21:45 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:21:45 -0400 Subject: IBM Bus & Tag channel protocol specs? In-Reply-To: <4448073C.6080600@msm.umr.edu> References: <200604192216.42482.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4447B066.2070709@msm.umr.edu> <4447DC28.1040707@gmail.com> <200604201719.37774.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4447FF00.9030304@gmail.com> <4448073C.6080600@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <44480979.3020806@gmail.com> jim stephens wrote: > My friend who has both versions only remembered seeing a version > of the Host version of the cards and cables for the Micro Channel > version, and not for the PCI. Univac supported the host version on > the PCI card set. I have the PCI version, so I know it exists, but yes, the MCA version was a lot more common. > IBM systems with P/390's were more likely to be in Escon farms than > in bus / tag. The R/390's may have been more likely to be in sites with > SSA available, which IBM was pushing at the time the P/390's were > in vogue. Therefore less likely to see Escon versions of that hardware > or the Bus/Tag versions. If memory serves, the ARTIC960-based ESCON adapter still goes for $big. They're popular for adding ESCON channels above capacity in the MP/3000, in shops that can't afford to trade in their MP/3000's for z800's or z890's. Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 20 17:33:55 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060420152626.T3200@shell.lmi.net> > > The 5100 was not the IBM PC line. On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Richard wrote: > Is the 5100 the RT RISC-based one? I remember seeing one of those at > udel in the 82-86 time frame and I recall it had windowing, bitmap > graphics, etc. Nope. The 5100 was WAY earlier. Before "Personal" computers. Before LS IC "microprocessors". It's the one that John Titor was looking for, to take back to the future (2036) to handle the collapse of Unix in 2038. picture: http://www.obsoletecomputermuseum.org/ibm5100/ specs (on Eric's site): http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/ibm/5100/ I don't remember what model number the early RISC machine was. I can't even remember the model number of the 68K based "laboratory" computer. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 20 17:44:27 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:44:27 +0100 Subject: Cosmetic replicas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44480ECB.2020409@yahoo.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: >> The actual construction is sufficiently different from the original that >> it will be "obvious" that these are replicas and not originals (but from >> the front it'll be pretty close). > > Will people remember this 50 years from now? > > It sounds like a stupid analogy, but what if some kid does a masters on > computer front panels 50 years from now, and inspects some PDP-11s... You know, one of the things I really like about this hobby is the detective work that's needed to separate production machines from prototypes, discover "one offs", figure out where a owner's made a change from the factory original etc. I think I'd get bored if there weren't those little discoveries to be made. Of course, a tiny logo/message hidden from view on the back side of a repro panel is probably sufficiently out of the way to retain the "detective work" aspect of researching a machine :-) >> But seriously, I hadn't thought of that. Before they go for production >> (ie when I get proofs back), I'll have a "tag" put in to make it *even* >> more obvious. > > Most people do not know this, so I do not blame you. It is common museum > practice when restoring objects. In some cases museum practice seems a little odd, though. I remember discussing our ICL mainframe with others at Bletchley a little while ago - some of the cabinets are pretty scratched and rusted up. It seems that London Science Museum policy as part of restoration is not to repaint anything, and I still can't quite get my head around that. Personally I'd rather save an original paint flake or two (in case years down the line somebody needs to do analysis on the *original* paint), put in the restoration log-book what's been repainted, and then strip + repaint the cabinets so that they survive without further deterioration in order to prolong the life of the machine (long after it can no longer be maintained in running condition, it can still be a static exhibit). Of course it could be argued that the log book might go missing at some future time - but for a working restoration from "barn find" condition there are going to be all sorts of things that *have* to be replaced with items where original stock is no longer available, and so some form of log is obviously necessary. I suppose the upshot of this is that I'm with William on noting *somehow* what parts are non-original. But at the same time I admire those who would rather restore something to as faithful recreation of the original as possible, when the alternative is to leave the machine in a state where it's incomplete or where restoration policy would result in it deteriorating faster than necessary. cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 20 18:35:53 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:35:53 -0600 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:18:36 -0400. <444808BC.3050209@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <444808BC.3050209 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > Richard wrote: > > In article <20060420135155.J1180 at shell.lmi.net>, > > Fred Cisin writes: > > > >> BUT! > >> The 5100 was not the IBM PC line. > > > > Is the 5100 the RT RISC-based one? I remember seeing one of those at > > udel in the 82-86 time frame and I recall it had windowing, bitmap > > graphics, etc. > > Much earlier than that. It was based on a 16-bit processor called the PALM. Oh, OK, wrong again about IBM equipment :-). I confess that I really know next to nothing about IBM gear. I see from a followup message that the 5100 did not have graphics capability, only character display. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 20 18:38:42 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:38:42 -0600 Subject: Cosmetic replicas In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:44:27 +0100. <44480ECB.2020409@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <44480ECB.2020409 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > William Donzelli wrote: > > Most people do not know this, so I do not blame you. It is common museum > > practice when restoring objects. > > In some cases museum practice seems a little odd, though. [...] I wonder what the curators at the Henry Ford Museum do as a matter of practice. Lots of curator "practice" comes from art and antique museums where you definately don't want to "repair" anything. Witness how on Antiques Road Show they point out that the value is less if its a piece of furniture that has been refinished. However, the Henry Ford Museum tries to preserve technological artifacts in working condition and I'm willing to bet that they have a different set of rules than the average museum for how an item is to be restored. Has anyone ever contacted them for discussion? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Apr 20 19:01:12 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:01:12 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 32, Issue 38 In-Reply-To: <002501c664ba$261cbcb0$8e00a8c0@badddog> References: <002501c664ba$261cbcb0$8e00a8c0@badddog> Message-ID: <200604201701.12454.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 20 April 2006 13:36, Stuart Johnson wrote: > Lyle, - -snip-- > 3) The effort you are making to regenerate the sources of TSX-Plus is > admirable. It is quite some job to be a one-man project leader, architect, > and primary worker - plus work full time and have an actual life. I know > from personal experience in a "former" life. I have help in this - I've purposely not revealed the names of the people involved to protect them from "Why haven't you done this by now" emails. > 4) Why is it necessary to rebuild TSX-Plus from source before you can share > it with hobbyists? Are the binaries non-existent or not usable? If I > understood the scope of the problem, perhaps I (and others?) would be more > supportive. I have ALL the binaries - and have generated the system successfully for both my 11/34C and my 11/83. I wanted to make sure that the docs and binaries matched, that the product was complete, etc. I intend to write up a simplified guide on installing TSX-Plus - as it can be a bear to install from the detailed docs. (The docs are excellent - but one has to wade through a LOT of material to get it up the first time). I also have preserved/found the licensing key program, a complete accounting system (including almost all sources), etc., etc. All this stuff will be released IN TIME. > Please don't misunderstand - resurrecting TSX-Plus and utilities is a neat > thing to do, but how does it fit in with your earlier announcement? I'm not clear on what you're suggesting here - nothing has changed in principle of what I intended to do. The only changes from my original mission, which was to release TSX-Plus binaries, is: 1) I was able to obtains the source listings and get written permission to have them released to the public. Al scanned them and they are up on bitsavers.org; 2) From the scans we MAY be "getting" the sources. It's a difficult process - OCR scan, create sources from the listings, assemble the sources to check their quality. The release of the binaries is NOT dependent on any of the "changes". PLEASE do not contact S&H about this project. They have bent over backwards to be cooperative and released all of the above material to me after much consideration (the negotiations took months) and determination of HOW they wanted everything handled, etc. Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 20 19:17:42 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 01:17:42 +0100 Subject: Cosmetic replicas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <444824A6.2020503@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > In article <44480ECB.2020409 at yahoo.co.uk>, > Jules Richardson writes: > >> William Donzelli wrote: > >>> Most people do not know this, so I do not blame you. It is common museum >>> practice when restoring objects. >> In some cases museum practice seems a little odd, though. [...] > > I wonder what the curators at the Henry Ford Museum do as a matter of > practice. Lots of curator "practice" comes from art and antique museums > where you definately don't want to "repair" anything. Witness how on > Antiques Road Show they point out that the value is less if its a > piece of furniture that has been refinished. Yep, I suspect you're exactly right. I can definitely see the point for 'traditional' art and antiques - and similarly, would rather use new-old stock to repair a computer than substitute reproduction bits when possible. But I think that for computers (or more generally, complex mechanisms) where there's a desire to maintain in running condition, restoration without any reproduction just plain doesn't work. Of course, keeping the reproduction parts to a minimum is still desirable, and logging any non-original parts that have been used seems like a very good idea... cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 20 19:39:09 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:39:09 -0600 Subject: Anyone got a spare HPIL keyboard? Message-ID: I purchased an HP2397A color terminal. It needs a monitor and keyboard. The monitor is straightforward and can be taken care of with a cable. (Although it would be nice to find the appropriate HP period monitor.) The keyboard is a different story. I need an HPIL keyboard. Its my understanding that any HPIL keyboard would work, but that I'd need one that understands HPIL and couldn't rig up a stock PS2 style keyboard. I'm not asking for charity, I'll pay a reasonable price :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 20 19:43:56 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:43:56 -0600 Subject: Cosmetic replicas In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 21 Apr 2006 01:17:42 +0100. <444824A6.2020503@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <444824A6.2020503 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > Of course, keeping the reproduction parts to a minimum is still > desirable, and logging any non-original parts that have been used > seems like a very good idea... Yeah, I like the idea of keeping a log for each chunk of equipment so that you have written down what you've done to it and what needs to be done. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Apr 20 19:48:56 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:48:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 32, Issue 38 In-Reply-To: <200604201701.12454.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <002501c664ba$261cbcb0$8e00a8c0@badddog> <200604201701.12454.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <200604210049.UAA18843@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > PLEASE do not contact S&H about this project. They have bent over > backwards to be cooperative and released all of the above material to > me after much consideration (the negotiations took months) and > determination of HOW they wanted everything handled, etc. Is there anything we *can* do to help, or can that be summed up best as "be patient and stay out of the way"? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 20 20:22:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:22:45 -0700 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <20060420152626.T3200@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060420152626.T3200@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200604201822450588.824DBAF3@10.0.0.252> On 4/20/2006 at 3:33 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >Nope. >The 5100 was WAY earlier. Before "Personal" computers. Before LS IC >"microprocessors". Not exactly, close though. I can recall seeing the IBM announcement in Datamation right about at the same time that Intel was rolling out the 8080. I got to see a 5100 up close at NCC, I think in 1976 or so. IBM had all the external doodads hooked to one and was showing it off and getting about the same reception as day-old pancakes from the crowd. I could not believe the little bitty screen on it and wondered how any human was expected to use such a thing. Of course, I wondered the same thing when I saw one of the first Osborne 1's spread out on a tabletop at Sorcim (no case yet). "You can't be serious," said I. "Who the heck is going to want to peer at that little screen?" Richard Frank assured me that he didn't see it as a problem. With my bad eyesight, I just didn't see it at all. Cheers, Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Apr 20 20:29:30 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cosmetic replicas In-Reply-To: <44480ECB.2020409@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > In some cases museum practice seems a little odd, though. I remember > discussing our ICL mainframe with others at Bletchley a little while > ago - some of the cabinets are pretty scratched and rusted up. It > seems that London Science Museum policy as part of restoration is not > to repaint anything, and I still can't quite get my head around that. That same kid might do his doctorate on computer cabinet paint. To be proper, the over the top method used by NASM is to coat the original paint and finish with a non-reactive wax, then new paint is applied over the wax. This is not as nuts as it seems. To all those that ask about curing yellowing plastic, do something much the same - a thin coat of latex paint will work fine. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Apr 20 20:30:26 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <20060420152626.T3200@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > I can't even remember the model number of the 68K based "laboratory" > computer. It was the "other" 9000. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 20 20:32:56 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:32:56 -0700 Subject: 1350A vs 1351A In-Reply-To: <200604202108.k3KL8heB070617@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604202108.k3KL8heB070617@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <44483648.9040807@sbcglobal.net> <>No, I'm not sure. It's been a long time. However that's the resolutions given in the manual for the 1350 and in the HP 1980 and 1982 catalogs. Probably they are just rounding it off. The manual does mention the X=1022, Y=1023 max values for a plot absolute command. Bob ----------------------------- Message: 13 Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 19:48:47 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: 1350 vs 1351 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain Are you sure about that? I could have sworn the 1350 was 1024*1023 resolution (10 bits/axis, with 'all ones' as one particular coordinate indicating that the 10 bits of other coordinate are a character code + attiributes) -tony From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Apr 20 20:49:24 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 18:49:24 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 32, Issue 38 In-Reply-To: <200604210049.UAA18843@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <002501c664ba$261cbcb0$8e00a8c0@badddog> <200604201701.12454.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <200604210049.UAA18843@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200604201849.25263.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 20 April 2006 17:48, der Mouse wrote: > > PLEASE do not contact S&H about this project. They have bent over > > backwards to be cooperative and released all of the above material to > > me after much consideration (the negotiations took months) and > > determination of HOW they wanted everything handled, etc. > > Is there anything we *can* do to help, or can that be summed up best as > "be patient and stay out of the way"? I've got a couple of volunteers besides myself - so I'm fine with that. "Patience is a virtue" ;-) Lyle > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 20 21:05:13 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:05:13 -0500 Subject: DEC M3134-PA DS500 module References: Message-ID: <005901c664e8$06ff1b10$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Richard, if you really need to get an ibm coax term on a pdp, there IS a way to do it. Set the 3270 style terminal to CUT mode instead of DFT. This removes much of the "smarts" from the terminal. Hook the 3270 term to a 3174 controller via coax. The 3174 controller must have the AEA option installed (ASCII emulation). Basically the AEA option gets you a number of serial ports (9 I seem to recall) on the back of the 3174 to which you can attach rs232 async dumb terminals, or, in your case, run cables to the rs232 async port(s) on a "more traditional" host. Bear in mind you will get a terminal that still won't work right with many things you might expect any terminal to work with... for example I don't believe any character (full screen) editor would work (and not just because of termcap type issues), I don't think TECO would work (esc=$).... etc. But you could do it. Most of your application programs (including system programs like login, command shell, etc) won't work either because they expect character at a time input. The basic fundamental issue is, in the IBM world what a terminal is/does and how a terminal should interact with a host system is a diametrically opposed and fundamentally different concept to how one thinks about what a terminal is and how it should interact with a host in the async/ascii world. It's much much more than just electrical and characterset issues. So... get a 3174 with option AEA and play around with it and see what you think. Jay West From trs-80 at cableone.net Thu Apr 20 21:25:35 2006 From: trs-80 at cableone.net (Steve Phipps) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:25:35 -0500 Subject: Portable Commodore 64 References: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.com> <200604201402.38571.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <001f01c664ea$dfb36a40$8a02a8c0@steve6isvpk5vy> Back in the 80s there was a national merchandise liquidating company called C.O.M.B. with stores in most major cities. They ran a 30 minute infomercial on local cable access channels selling the SX-64 for $399. I remember "drooling" over that ad thinking it was the best computer deal ever. Also remember the local C.O.M.B store selling outdated Kaypro II machines new in the box with everything for $99 around 1987. Those were the days... Anyone remember a TV show called "Telephone Auction" that ran on local cable access channels? It was based at a large outdoor flea market in the LA area and had a guy in front of a large crowd who would advertise the merchandise and take bids from the audience. Lots of closeout vintage computer stuff was sold on that show. Remember them selling the Sanyo MBC-550 for $1300 being hawked as the best thing since sliced bread... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy J. Tellason" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 1:02 PM Subject: Re: Portable Commodore 64 > Are you talking about the SX-64? I don't have one, but wouldn't mind if > one > were to come my way. I always thought they were kinda nifty... From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Apr 20 21:28:11 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:28:11 -0400 Subject: Dueling HP's: 1350A vs 1351A References: Message-ID: <001601c664eb$3d585890$0100a8c0@screamer> 2K versus 8K of vector memory. Each vector or letter displayed takes one memory location. There is also a minor difference in how they clip the X axis (1022 points). More specifically, there is a difference in how they deal with end points that are outside the displayable area (which generally causes a character to be plotted rather than a vector ending off the screen). Generator versus translator, no difference, its just terminology. Both devices take HPIB commands in a simple ASCII protocol and generate vector displays. The refresh rates, drawing speeds, and even character generator ROMs are the same. Both generate (nearly) 1K by 1K vector graphics displays. There are some photos of HP 1350 vector displays at: http://www.infionline.net/~wtnewton/oldcomp/hp2100/HP_photos.html The small rack-mounted CRT displays are actually generated by 12555 dual D/A converters, not the HP1350. Photos 7 and 9 are from an HP1350 on a Tektronics 620 display. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 12:53 AM Subject: Dueling HP's: 1350A vs 1351A > What is the difference between these two? > > HP 1350A graphics translator > HP 1351A graphics generator > > The 1350A has a product page on hpmuseum.net, but the 1351A has some > docs there that seem to describe the same product. However, one is a > "translator" and the other is a "generator". Can anyone tell me how > they are different? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Apr 20 21:31:30 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:31:30 -0400 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? References: <200604182326350573.791734B2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <001e01c664eb$b3e96f30$0100a8c0@screamer> A 1968 HP2116 with a HP12555 dual D/A board connected to a Tektronics 611 storage tube. But one of my 'best' old graphics systems is a 1969 Imlac PDS-1 'alpha' machine, currently playing 'SNARF' in the corner of my living room. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 2:26 AM Subject: Re: earliest graphics display system in your collection? > On 4/18/2006 at 10:45 PM Richard wrote: > >>OK, what's the earliest graphics display system held by any of you >>collectors? >> >>"graphics display system" is anything that creates a graphics image >>with a display: calligraphic, storage tube, plasma, raster, etc. >>Block character graphics don't count (or I would include my Commodore >>CBM 8032 and all the stupid terminals :). > > Graphics displays are very old and I suspect that they go back to the very > early digital computer days in the form of a simple x-y vector display on > an oscilloscope. Analog computer use may go back even further. I suspect > that as a display technology, rather than as a printing technology, > graphics displays precede alphanumeric displays by a good long time. > Certainly pre-war process control systems could drive x-y chart > recorders--and what's a closed-loop process controller but an analog > computer? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Apr 20 21:32:50 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:32:50 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) References: <4445DBD8.8070301@msm.umr.edu> <4445FCBB.6090901@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <002401c664eb$e3856460$0100a8c0@screamer> The CPU sits on the bottom of the chassis, nearly filling the whole footprint of the processor box. ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Maddox" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 5:02 AM Subject: Re: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) > jim stephens wrote: > >> There sounds to be at least one small part (screw, nut, broken plastic) >> rattling around inside the front area, so it will have to be opened no >> matter what. > > There should be another card cage on the front side, behind the front > panel. Your CPU and memory cards would go there. > > --Bill > From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Apr 20 21:48:48 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:48:48 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) References: <3.0.6.16.20060419101110.119f5b6e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <007601c663ce$f35bf2a0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <004a01c664ee$1e68b350$0100a8c0@screamer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 12:33 PM Subject: Re: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) >> Under the front panel is a >> removeable plate that covers the CPU and memory cards. BTW I've been told >> not to run the 1000 sithout the plate since it controls the cooling air >> flow. > I suspect the cooling duct is misguided. With the door closed, there's > little difference in airflow. But there's a much better reason to keep > this panel in place. This panel is specifically designed to press tightly > on the ribbon cables that jumper between the memory controller and the > memory cards in the front card cage. This cable is notoriously finnicky. > That is the main reason for this front panel. > Joe is correct here. Unless the metal plate is installed over the memory boards and controller two problems will pop up. First off, airflow over one corner of the memory controller board will be shunted forward, away from the backplane, and flow behind the front panel. The 2102B will get flakey under these conditions, depending on how the memory timing is adjusted (by the pot on the controller board). Just measure the temperature of the 2102B with and without the metal plate installed. Measure the far side from the power supply, near the memory backplane. I've 'fixed' flakey machines be installing this baffle when it had been missing. Of course the correct fix is to replace/repair the 2102B. Secondly, the memory ribbon cables will act up far more than they do when this foam-lined metal plate is installed as the factory designed it to be. From jim.isbell at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 21:52:50 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:52:50 -0500 Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: <001f01c664ea$dfb36a40$8a02a8c0@steve6isvpk5vy> References: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.com> <200604201402.38571.rtellason@blazenet.net> <001f01c664ea$dfb36a40$8a02a8c0@steve6isvpk5vy> Message-ID: I bought my SX 64 from COMB and still have it. I also bought four signed and numbered prints by Salvador Dalli. Oh well, you cant always win. On 4/20/06, Steve Phipps wrote: > Back in the 80s there was a national merchandise liquidating company called > C.O.M.B. with stores in most major cities. They ran a 30 minute infomercial > on local cable access channels selling the SX-64 for $399. I remember > "drooling" over that ad thinking it was the best computer deal ever. > > Also remember the local C.O.M.B store selling outdated Kaypro II machines > new in the box with everything for $99 around 1987. Those were the days... > > Anyone remember a TV show called "Telephone Auction" that ran on local cable > access channels? It was based at a large outdoor flea market in the LA area > and had a guy in front of a large crowd who would advertise the merchandise > and take bids from the audience. Lots of closeout vintage computer stuff was > sold on that show. Remember them selling the Sanyo MBC-550 for $1300 being > hawked as the best thing since sliced bread... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 1:02 PM > Subject: Re: Portable Commodore 64 > > > > Are you talking about the SX-64? I don't have one, but wouldn't mind if > > one > > were to come my way. I always thought they were kinda nifty... > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Apr 20 22:02:33 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 05:02:33 +0200 Subject: M4 9914 Manuals References: <1e1fc3e90604201354n30ce989er9fcf185c15285de3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002001c664f0$09a84870$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Glen Slick" Subject: M4 9914 Manuals > Does anyone have M4 9914 9-track tape drive manuals? I've a one-sided PDF printout of the manual 123477/23, Issue 2 + Amdt 3, document ref. CM 1077, User/Diagnostic Manual. If nobody else can help you, I could try to copy it to a double-sided version. Please let me know Nico From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 20 22:00:18 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 04:00:18 +0100 Subject: Cosmetic replicas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44484AC2.8030202@yahoo.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: >> In some cases museum practice seems a little odd, though. I remember >> discussing our ICL mainframe with others at Bletchley a little while >> ago - some of the cabinets are pretty scratched and rusted up. It >> seems that London Science Museum policy as part of restoration is not >> to repaint anything, and I still can't quite get my head around that. > > That same kid might do his doctorate on computer cabinet paint. Yep - hence the reason for keeping samples of the original paint, though. I can see that someone in the future might be interested in the original paint used (although doesn't that in itself open a whole can of worms in terms of UV exposure and the like?). I just wouldn't like the future possibility of a handful of people being interested in the paintwork compromising the preservation of an item in the medium term (and the same goes for other components) > To be proper, the over the top method used by NASM is to coat the original > paint and finish with a non-reactive wax, then new paint is applied over > the wax. Well, I suppose it's not *that* over the top - providing that it's a *certainty* that the wax is non-reactive over time :-) Mind you, experience of old cars is that moisture often gets beneath the paintwork and attacks the metal, causing rust, which then only starts showing through to the surface and becoming visible once it's taken a good hold beneath. I doubt that computer cabinets are any different - so that wax coating better be darn good if it's going to stop further deterioration beneath the new coat of paint... > This is not as nuts as it seems. To all those that ask about curing > yellowing plastic, do something much the same - a thin coat of latex paint > will work fine. In the case of plastic, isn't it UV exposure that causes the yellowing? So yep, that certainly makes sense as the paint coat should both improve the look of the item and stop the plastic itself from breaking down further. Of course, I'm not sure how someone would remove the paint at some future date without whatever method used (chemical or blasting) also damaging the plastic itself... cheers Jules From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Apr 20 22:16:23 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:16:23 -0400 Subject: IBM Bus & Tag channel protocol specs? In-Reply-To: <4447FF00.9030304@gmail.com> References: <200604192216.42482.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200604201719.37774.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4447FF00.9030304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200604202316.23160.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 20 April 2006 17:37, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > If I either the P/390 or ARTIC960 were easily/cheaply available, I > > might consider this. But, I would rather create something that can > > be cheaply duplicated, and not be fixed to a host hardware > > platform. > > The ARTIC960 is definitely available cheaply and easily. I once > bought a box of about fifty. I sold them off piece by piece. And I > know they're still available. So any idea where I can find one? I haven't ever seen one before, but I didn't know they existed either. Do they have some specific name or model #, other than "artic960"? > The P/390 hardware/software combination can probably used to leverage > support for the ARTIC960 in Hercules. I'm not sure how easy it'll be to figure out how the P/390 drives the ARTIC960 card, without something like a PCI bus analyzer... I'd rather build something like this from specs if I can, instead of trying to reverse engineer it. > > I'd rather run Hercules on a Linux PC (or some UNIX box), or use a > > real S/390 (or ES/9000) that I've got than bother with acquiring an > > expensive, slow, and hard to find P/390 or R/390. > > It's actually pretty surprising the speed you can get with a P/390E > card on some of the harder-to-emulate operations that the P/390E does > in hardware. > > In any case, if you feel the compulsion to write support for the > ARTIC960 in Hercules, I'd be happy to lend you a P/390 or two (and > software) to speed you on your way. It sounds tempting, but I think I'd rather make something new, than use something that's not being produced anymore. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Apr 20 22:25:12 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:25:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cosmetic replicas In-Reply-To: <44484AC2.8030202@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > In the case of plastic, isn't it UV exposure that causes the yellowing? So > yep, that certainly makes sense as the paint coat should both improve the look > of the item and stop the plastic itself from breaking down further. Of course, > I'm not sure how someone would remove the paint at some future date without > whatever method used (chemical or blasting) also damaging the plastic itself... There are many ways to strip latex paint that will not harm other materials, given time. In fact, latex paint sort of sucks. Its lack of durability is why it is a good choice. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Apr 20 22:26:19 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:26:19 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 new arrivals References: <366D5127-40F9-4445-B294-6DDC109EB3D0@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <00ef01c664f3$5be9d740$0100a8c0@screamer> Be careful! It looks like you have a MEM board installed in I/O slot 10. This is bad. The MEM belongs near the top of the front card cage, its not an I/O board and should never be in the rear (I/O) blackplane. Don't power it up like this. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Borsuk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 6:56 PM Subject: HP 1000 new arrivals > What timing! Funny there should be a thread about HP 1000 series. I > just received my two today. Here they are: > > http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/PhotoAlbum1.html > > F series. You can also see a pic of my Data General Desktop Generation I > just got in. > > Rob > > ps. Thanks for all the great advice on HP 1000's. I know I'm going to > be doing a couple of things before I power them up. > > From recycler at swbell.net Thu Apr 20 22:32:33 2006 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick Jankowiak) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:32:33 -0500 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44485251.7090808@swbell.net> Univac plasma display, serial number 1. Not sure the date, perhaps mid 60's? as it's out in the lab and it's raining now. Rackmount, about 175 lbs. I suspect it's a military prototype, the display tube looks "home made" if you will. Does a '50's Hughes 104D memo-scope storage oscilloscope scope count? Patrick Tony Duell wrote: >>OK, what's the earliest graphics display system held by any of you >>collectors? >> >>"graphics display system" is anything that creates a graphics image >>with a display: calligraphic, storage tube, plasma, raster, etc. >>Block character graphics don't count (or I would include my Commodore >>CBM 8032 and all the stupid terminals :). >> >>My timeline goes like this, based on year introduced: >> >> 196?: Evans & Sutherland PS-300 terminal > > > Are you sure it's as early as that? I thought it had ICs in it that would > date it to the early 70's. My PS/390 is, of course, a lot later. > > >> 197?: Tektronix 4010 terminal >> 1974: Tektronix 4014 terminal >> 1977: Hewlett-Packard 2648A terminal >> Hewlett-Packard 1350A graphics translator >> 1979: Atari 800 microcomputer >> 1981: IBM PC CGA microcomputer >> 1983: Televideo TS-803 microcomputer >> 1984: Megatek Whizzard 1645 terminal >> Diser Eve workstation >> 1984?: Tektronix 4105 terminal >> 1985: Sun 3/110 workstation >> 1986: Hewlett-Packard 2397A terminal >> 1988: NCD 14p X terminal >> 1989: Evans & Sutherland ESV workstation >> 1991: Evans & Sutherland Freedom accelerator >> 1993: SGI Indigo^2 workstation >> >> []? - I don't know for certain, can you fill in the year? > > > I am not sure of the years for a lot of my machines, but here are a few > ones you don't have .... > > PERQ 1 workstation > PERQ 2T1 workstation > PERQ 2T4 (not a typo) workstation > PERQ AGW3300 workstation > AMT DAP 610 (I think, anyway, it's got a video output :-) > I2S Model 70/E image processor/display > I2S Model 70/F4 image processor/display > I2S Model 75 image processor/display > PPL video winchester disk + unibus interface > Grinnell framestore for PDP11 > Vectrex video game system (am I allowed to include that?) > DEC GT40 vector terminal > Victor 9000 > HP9836 > HP9817 > HP9000/340 > Xerox Daybreak > FTS-88 > BBC Micro (:-)), ACW > Torch XXX > > Do you include the 'waveform display' DEC terminals that could display > only 2 points in each vertical column (and were thus designed for > displaying mathematical funcitons or waveforms)? I have a VT55 and VT105 > here. > > You know, for all I have all those graphics systems, I still only have an > MDA text display on this PC... > > -tony > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 22:39:39 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 15:39:39 +1200 Subject: 1965 DEC Logic Trainer In-Reply-To: References: <4447BEDA.4010602@srv.net> Message-ID: On 4/21/06, Doug Salot wrote: > Date codes are from 1965. It has several straight-8 era flip chips > plugged in. Includes an 18-bit set of indicator lights which aren't clear > in the photo since they need an attachment screw tightened. The chassis > appears to be made by a third-party. > > http://blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/dec/logic/front.jpg > http://blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/dec/logic/back.jpg Nice. If anyone on the list has one of the later, TTL-based M-series module logic trainers, I'd love to see a couple photos of this level of detail. My stepdad's mother, a school teacher in a nearby town, gave me the teacher's guide to the later unit when I was in Jr. High (after I'd started playing with PETs and Elfs, etc). I've seen pictures of the outside of that later unit, but not the inside. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 20 23:30:18 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:30:18 -0600 Subject: RA60P -- hard to find? Message-ID: There are 137 of them NOS on govliquidation.... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 23:35:28 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 16:35:28 +1200 Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060420091846.04be2a10@mail> References: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20060420091846.04be2a10@mail> Message-ID: On 4/21/06, John Foust wrote: > At 09:01 AM 4/20/2006, you wrote: > >I found one of these on ebay... > > You meant 8278074345 or 8796143722 . > > Uncommon, that's all. If you look at completed listings, there > were three recently, at about US $65. That's not too bad for a working one. I used to get them for about $35 to $50 (I have two or three myself) in not-necessarily-working state ('though I did get hosed for shipping on one when the guy took it to Mailboxes, Etc., and sent it COD - I think the shipping was $75). The two most common failures in my experience are the PLA (82S100 - identical to the one in a standard C-64) and the keyboard. It's a cheap membrane affair - one of my SX-64 keyboards broke under the previous owner - intermittent contacts, I'd guess, and he tried to repair it - total mess now. Fortunately, I happened to have *1* spare keyboard out of a pile of parts I'd gotten from a defunct C= dealer. They also occasionally suffer from occasional internal interconnect problems - typically with the cartridge slot. Reseating connectors typically fixes that problem. Fun to tote around to club meetings and such, but can be a hassle to repair - there's a lot of stuff packed in a very small space - gets to be convoluted. One important missing feature for some add-ons... no cassette port (I think the cassette routines are patched around in the SX ROMs). While it doesn't matter for most things, there are peripherals that depend on the cassette port for power or power and data (like Marko Makela's CN232 serial adapter). $900, though, is, um, rather high. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 20 23:38:49 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:38:49 -0600 Subject: DEC M3134-PA DS500 module In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:05:13 -0500. <005901c664e8$06ff1b10$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: In article <005901c664e8$06ff1b10$6900a8c0 at HPLAPTOP>, "Jay West" writes: > The basic fundamental issue is, in the IBM world what a terminal is/does and > how a terminal should interact with a host system is a diametrically opposed > and fundamentally different concept to how one thinks about what a terminal > is and how it should interact with a host in the async/ascii world. It's > much much more than just electrical and characterset issues. Yeah, its starting to sink into this thick skull :-). On the other hand, as a collector of terminals this is pretty interesting exactly because its so weird! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 20 23:59:43 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:59:43 -0500 Subject: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) References: <3.0.6.16.20060419101110.119f5b6e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><007601c663ce$f35bf2a0$6500a8c0@BILLING> <004a01c664ee$1e68b350$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <00aa01c66500$67980820$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bob wrote... > Of course the correct fix is to replace/repair the 2102B. exactly. That coverplate really shouldn't make a difference (when the front panel is closed). If it does, the memory controller is likely marginal anyways. > Secondly, the memory ribbon cables will act up far more than they do > when this foam-lined metal plate is installed as the factory designed it > to be. On all mine, the backing to the plate is a type of foam I haven't seen elsewhere, it's definitely more like rubber than foam. I suspect this really is the main reason for the coverplate rather than airflow. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 21 00:20:15 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 00:20:15 -0500 Subject: HP 1000 new arrivals References: <366D5127-40F9-4445-B294-6DDC109EB3D0@colourfull.com> <00ef01c664f3$5be9d740$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <00af01c66503$4c18f890$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bob wrote... > Be careful! > > It looks like you have a MEM board installed in I/O slot 10. This is bad. > > The MEM belongs near the top of the front card cage, its not an I/O > board and should never be in the rear (I/O) blackplane. > > Don't power it up like this. Nah, don't worry a bit. The board you have in the I/O card cage in slot 10 isn't a MEM board. It's a FEM board (the red extractor handle is a hint {you can't always trust that though} but the jumper at the back is a dead giveaway). MEM boards (memory expansion module) go in the front card cage and are used if you need to address more than 32kw of memory. FEM (firmware expansion module) is a board that goes in slot 10 (theres some exceptions here) in the rear card cage and holds microcode chips. A FEM board is just like a FAB board that mounts under the cpu board (functionally anyways). I vastly prefer the FEM board. Some say FEM is a negative over FAB, because it takes up an I/O slot and FAB doesn't. I disagree - perhaps because most all my E's are 2113's and thus I/O slots don't need to be rationed. It's far easier to change microcode - either by pulling the board and replacing chips or by swapping FEM boards - than it is to try and pull the FAB board from the bottom. About FAB boards... (and M series microcode daughterboards too)... it appears that it's not totally rare for the mounting posts to electroplate to the pads on the daughterboards or FAB boards. Since the mounting posts actually DO carry current to the daughterboards be careful when removing them. The pads are plated through, so pulling some of the plate off is damn near irreversable damage. Now more curious... the FAB board in your box isn't connected to the cpu board with a shielded ribbon cable. This effectively disconnects the FAB board - it's microcode isn't available to the cpu. Note you can't use a regular ribbon cable stub to connect the two, it has to be a shielded one. You'll definitely want that. Oh, another FEM advantage... it provides more capacity than the FAB, and more flexible addressing options. Jay West From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 00:25:13 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 17:25:13 +1200 Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: <200604201406.27267.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200604201407.k3KE7RrK018110@floodgap.com> <189d921a4e.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <200604201406.27267.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: On 4/21/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Thursday 20 April 2006 10:37 am, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > In message <200604201407.k3KE7RrK018110 at floodgap.com> > > Are there any custom ICs in there - custom defined as "not found in a > > garden-variety breadbox Commodore 64"? Hardware-wise, how do the two > > machines compare (besides the obvious "the SX64 has a built in monitor and > > disc drives")? Disc drive, singular. There apparently was a plan to offer a dual-drive unit (DX64), but the PSU wasn't up to it (and perhaps the passive cooling as well). > > I know there's the SID and VIC; I was wondering if the drives were > > implemented as "guts of a 1541 strapped to the chassis" or custom ICs > > integrated onto the mainboard. The maintenance manual should be on funet, but ISTR the disk drive is implemented on its own board, but is not exactly the same board out of a 1541 (based on, yes, same part, no). > One of the ROMs is a different part number, which gives slightly different > default screen colors, but I know that in repairing one the ROM out of a C64 > can also be used. There are also differences in the drive, for sure, but > it's been long enough since I've been into one that I don't remember what > those are off the top of my head. Yeah... think the differences only matter for fast loaders and such. The trickiest thing I ever ran on an SX64 was a later version of the Infocom interpreter that asked if you had a real 1541 or not (so it could play tricks with the drive-to-CPU comms - a software speed loader, IIRC). The C-64 ROM works in an SX64, but, of course, the cassette stuff doesn't, since the SX64 doesn't provide a cassette port. > I do have a service manual for those around here someplace, I used to fix > them, along with a lot of other C= stuff... http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/c64/sx-64/index.html (apparently funet has been relocated...) > Anybody looking for any c= parts? Drop me a note off-list. Doing fine there - one of these days, I should go through my stacks of stuff and offer it up- I have several tackle-boxes of upgrade parts from that C= dealer... ROMs (all of which are imaged on funet AFAIK), various rev video chips, etc. Never enough time... -ethan From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 00:41:40 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:41:40 -0700 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <44485251.7090808@swbell.net> References: <44485251.7090808@swbell.net> Message-ID: > Does a '50's Hughes 104D memo-scope storage oscilloscope scope count? > Doesn't that have core memory. My stepmother hand threaded core for Hughes in the late 1950s and early 60s. To be on topic the earlest Graphics system I have in my collection currently would be an Apolo 570. Although I have had lots of earlier systems go through my hands in the 1990s. We hauled a truckload back to PDX from the last Calma auction in '88 or '89. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 21 01:04:04 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 00:04:04 -0600 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:41:40 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "Paxton Hoag" writes: > To be on topic the earlest Graphics system I have in my collection > currently would be an Apolo 570. What year was that introduced? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 01:05:41 2006 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:05:41 -0700 Subject: M4 9914 Manuals In-Reply-To: <002001c664f0$09a84870$2101a8c0@finans> References: <1e1fc3e90604201354n30ce989er9fcf185c15285de3@mail.gmail.com> <002001c664f0$09a84870$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90604202305x1dc1ef94me544d1dae03d66a6@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for the offer, but that is one of the two manuals that I already found a copy of on the net. It is the other manuals (121780, 121789, 123477) that I didn't find. -Glen On 4/20/06, Nico de Jong wrote: > From: "Glen Slick" > Subject: M4 9914 Manuals > > > > Does anyone have M4 9914 9-track tape drive manuals? > > I've a one-sided PDF printout of the manual 123477/23, Issue 2 + Amdt 3, > document ref. CM 1077, User/Diagnostic Manual. > If nobody else can help you, I could try to copy it to a double-sided > version. Please let me know > > Nico > > From nico at farumdata.dk Fri Apr 21 01:19:14 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 08:19:14 +0200 Subject: M4 9914 Manuals References: <1e1fc3e90604201354n30ce989er9fcf185c15285de3@mail.gmail.com><002001c664f0$09a84870$2101a8c0@finans> <1e1fc3e90604202305x1dc1ef94me544d1dae03d66a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001801c6650b$83599690$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Slick" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 8:05 AM Subject: Re: M4 9914 Manuals > Thanks for the offer, but that is one of the two manuals that I > already found a copy of on the net. It is the other manuals (121780, > 121789, 123477) that I didn't find. > > -Glen Ah, sh.. happens, when mails are not read properly :-) Nico From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Apr 21 01:43:05 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 02:43:05 -0400 Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: <001f01c664ea$dfb36a40$8a02a8c0@steve6isvpk5vy> References: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.com> <200604201402.38571.rtellason@blazenet.net> <001f01c664ea$dfb36a40$8a02a8c0@steve6isvpk5vy> Message-ID: <200604210243.05491.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 20 April 2006 10:25 pm, Steve Phipps wrote: > Back in the 80s there was a national merchandise liquidating company called > C.O.M.B. with stores in most major cities. They ran a 30 minute infomercial > on local cable access channels selling the SX-64 for $399. I remember > "drooling" over that ad thinking it was the best computer deal ever. I remember that company, haven't thought about them in ages... > Also remember the local C.O.M.B store selling outdated Kaypro II machines > new in the box with everything for $99 around 1987. Those were the days... Wow, I must've missed that one, too. :-) Good thing I ended up getting mine for free... > Anyone remember a TV show called "Telephone Auction" that ran on local > cable access channels? I don't have cable, and mostly haven't had it all along. > It was based at a large outdoor flea market in the LA area and had a guy in > front of a large crowd who would advertise the merchandise and take bids > from the audience. Lots of closeout vintage computer stuff was sold on that > show. Remember them selling the Sanyo MBC-550 for $1300 being hawked as the > best thing since sliced bread... Heh. I remember that machine. A "sort of" compatible... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 1:02 PM > Subject: Re: Portable Commodore 64 > > > Are you talking about the SX-64? I don't have one, but wouldn't mind if > > one > > were to come my way. I always thought they were kinda nifty... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Apr 21 01:47:10 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 02:47:10 -0400 Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: References: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20060420091846.04be2a10@mail> Message-ID: <200604210247.10911.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 21 April 2006 12:35 am, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The two most common failures in my experience are the PLA (82S100 - > identical to the one in a standard C-64) and the keyboard. If I understand this stuff right, "82S100" is the part number for that chip in generic, unprogrammed form. They had a different number for it, 906114-01 or something like that. <...> > One important missing feature for some add-ons... no cassette port (I think > the cassette routines are patched around in the SX ROMs). While it doesn't > matter for most things, there are peripherals that depend on the cassette > port for power or power and data (like Marko Makela's CN232 serial adapter). Or most common in my experience, printer adapters, like "Cardco" and such. One of our regular mods was to remove that silly adapter provided with those and put a banana plug on the end of the wire, with a corresponding jack mounted in the back of the computer. > $900, though, is, um, rather high. Yeah. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Apr 21 01:49:27 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 02:49:27 -0400 Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: References: <200604201407.k3KE7RrK018110@floodgap.com> <200604201406.27267.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200604210249.27315.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 21 April 2006 01:25 am, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/21/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Thursday 20 April 2006 10:37 am, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > > In message <200604201407.k3KE7RrK018110 at floodgap.com> > > > Are there any custom ICs in there - custom defined as "not found in a > > > garden-variety breadbox Commodore 64"? Hardware-wise, how do the two > > > machines compare (besides the obvious "the SX64 has a built in monitor > > > and disc drives")? > > Disc drive, singular. There apparently was a plan to offer a > dual-drive unit (DX64), but the PSU wasn't up to it (and perhaps the > passive cooling as well). I never saw one of those, but heard rumors from time to time about them being sold in Canada, or maybe in Europe. > > > I know there's the SID and VIC; I was wondering if the drives were > > > implemented as "guts of a 1541 strapped to the chassis" or custom ICs > > > integrated onto the mainboard. > > The maintenance manual should be on funet, but ISTR the disk drive is > implemented on its own board, but is not exactly the same board out of > a 1541 (based on, yes, same part, no). Yeah, there were some significant hardware differences since in this unit everything worked off one power supply rather than the two separate supplies you'd have in a c64+1541. > > One of the ROMs is a different part number, which gives slightly > > different default screen colors, but I know that in repairing one the > > ROM out of a C64 can also be used. There are also differences in the > > drive, for sure, but it's been long enough since I've been into one > > that I don't remember what those are off the top of my head. > > Yeah... think the differences only matter for fast loaders and such. > The trickiest thing I ever ran on an SX64 was a later version of the > Infocom interpreter that asked if you had a real 1541 or not (so it > could play tricks with the drive-to-CPU comms - a software speed > loader, IIRC). > > The C-64 ROM works in an SX64, but, of course, the cassette stuff > doesn't, since the SX64 doesn't provide a cassette port. See my other nearby comment about fixing that. :-) > > I do have a service manual for those around here someplace, I used to > > fix them, along with a lot of other C= stuff... > > http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/c64/sx-64/index >.html > > (apparently funet has been relocated...) > > > Anybody looking for any c= parts? Drop me a note off-list. > > Doing fine there - one of these days, I should go through my stacks of > stuff and offer it up- I have several tackle-boxes of upgrade parts > from that C= dealer... ROMs (all of which are imaged on funet AFAIK), > various rev video chips, etc. Never enough time... Hmm. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Apr 21 02:54:17 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 08:54:17 +0100 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:07:44 MDT." Message-ID: <200604210754.IAA02881@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Richard said: > > In article <200604200804.JAA31357 at citadel.metropolis.local>, > Stan Barr writes: > > > [...] Edsac (1949) could > > display primitive graphics on a 32x16 pixel 2-colour display. > > OXO, a Tic-Tac-Toe program by A S Douglas in 1952, displayed > > the moves graphically. > > But I doubt if anyone in the group has an EDSAC! > > Wow! I hadn't heard of this before. What was the display technology? > And by "2-colour" do you really mean it was a color display with > foreground and background, or do you mean it was a black and white > display with full-intensity-on and intensity-off style 'colors'? It was a crt with high-intensity dots and low-intensity dots. The dots represented the data circulating in the mercury tank memory. It wasn't long before people discovered it could be used for crude graphics as well as its intended purpose! Download an emulator and see it for yourself: http://www.dcs.warwick.ac.uk/~edsac/ It's a fun machine to write programs for. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cc at corti-net.de Fri Apr 21 04:11:25 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 11:11:25 +0200 (CEST) Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Richard wrote: > So did it have graphical display capability or not? I thought that No, not on the screen. The only graphical output was on the printer, or on anything attached to the optional serial port like plotters or Tektronix terminals. Christian From cc at corti-net.de Fri Apr 21 04:21:42 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 11:21:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <20060420152626.T3200@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060420152626.T3200@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Fred Cisin wrote: > picture: > http://www.obsoletecomputermuseum.org/ibm5100/ > specs (on Eric's site): > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/ibm/5100/ And my site (there's also a link on Eric's site) for those who are interested in the system internals: http://computermuseum-stuttgart.de/dev/ibm_5110/technik/en/index.html > I can't even remember the model number of the 68K based "laboratory" > computer. CS/9000. I'd really like to have one... Christian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 04:53:50 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 21:53:50 +1200 Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: <200604210247.10911.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20060420091846.04be2a10@mail> <200604210247.10911.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: On 4/21/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Friday 21 April 2006 12:35 am, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > The two most common failures in my experience are the PLA (82S100 - > > identical to the one in a standard C-64) and the keyboard. > > If I understand this stuff right, "82S100" is the part number for that chip > in generic, unprogrammed form. They had a different number for it, > 906114-01 or something like that. Yes. Someone did work out the fuse map at one point, so if you had a suitable programmer and a blank 82S100, you could crank out fresh PLAs. -ethan From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Fri Apr 21 05:49:48 2006 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 12:49:48 +0200 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <200604201340.29489.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <20060417222142.YLOK8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200604192334.45273.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604192103340090.7DBA9B0E@10.0.0.252> <200604201340.29489.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <4448B8CC.3000404@ais.fraunhofer.de> Roy J. Tellason schrieb: > On Thursday 20 April 2006 12:03 am, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 4/19/2006 at 11:34 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> >>>> But a Z80 *won't* run 808[05] code. >>>> >> Well, a Z80 will run 8085 code that limits itself to 8080 instructions. >> But the 8085 has two documented instructions (RIM SIM) that the 8080 >> doesn't have-- >> > > Yeah, I remember those two... > Undocumented instrs are not the whole story, particularly not for 8085 vs z80 issues, and especially not for RIM and SIM. I have had hard times finding any 8085 system at all that required and used them; the typical application seems to be a bit-banger RS-232 interface - usually any 808x system that has a serial interface will employ a 8251 or alike for that. Maybe some embedded two-chip system (8085+8355) will take advantage of it, but this is probably only interesting for forensic analyses, not really a hobbyist/conservation issue. No, a really nasty difference comes from the different use of the parity bit in the 8080 vs the same PSW bit in a Z80. Although I thought this would also just be used for calculating/checking the parity bit for bit-banger serial, it often appears in rather obscure scenarios where one wouldn't expect it. At least, in a disassembly one often finds incidents by searching for the JPE/JPO instructions. > >> and a few more "undocumented" instructions (nonetheless used by many >> embedded programs) that neither the 8080 nor the Z80 has. >> > > I remember some real early magazine articles, and have since found a bit of > stuff online, that talked about undocumented opcodes for the z80, but I've > not run across that info for anything else. And it seems to depend a lot on > what brand of chip, etc. so I've never been really tempted to use them I know of a least one software (which I had disassembled myself for curiosity long ago) that actually uses undocumented Z80 instructions, namely the ones that allow access to the higher and lower haves of the index registers: this is the 12K-Zapple-Basic by TDL. Concerning these instructions, they seem to work on most common Z80s, including Z80A, B, and H variants, tried those myself. I haven't verified, due to lack of HW, where they also work on the 64180, the z180 or z280. Holger From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 21 08:10:39 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 06:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: On Topic! kind of: Scots found first cybercafe in 1751 Message-ID: <200604211310.k3LDAdGv019094@floodgap.com> This definitely meets the 10-year rule, as we now have proof that the Scots created the world's first cybercafe in 1751, centuries before Al Gore invented the Internet. http://www.theregister.com/2006/04/21/world_first_cybercafe/ -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Two can live as cheaply as one, for half as long. -------------------------- From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 21 10:03:45 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 08:03:45 -0700 Subject: Govliquidation paper tape punch In-Reply-To: <200604210928.k3L9SpMY080177@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604210928.k3L9SpMY080177@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4448F451.1040800@sbcglobal.net> Does anyone out there know what these paper tape punches were used with? Or who made them? http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=844666 Bob From James at jdfogg.com Fri Apr 21 10:51:45 2006 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 11:51:45 -0400 Subject: Govliquidation paper tape punch Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2565FE@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Does anyone out there know what these paper tape punches were > used with? Or who made them? > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=844666 > > Bob Same or similar model was used with COM systems and fiche cameras. This made something like an aperture card where indexing info was on a punched header that was glued to the fiche. .gov was big into indexed fiche systems, it may have come from such an environment. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 21 11:43:29 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 09:43:29 -0700 Subject: Govliquidation paper tape punch Message-ID: > Does anyone out there know what these paper tape punches > were used with? Or who made them? Tally P-120 http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/tally/SO_P-120_P-120_InstrMan_Nov66.pdf From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 21 12:03:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 11:03:40 -0600 Subject: Govliquidation paper tape punch In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 21 Apr 2006 09:43:29 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Al Kossow writes: > > Does anyone out there know what these paper tape punches > > were used with? Or who made them? > > Tally P-120 > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/tally/SO_P-120_P-120_InstrMan_Nov66.pdf Hrm. The picture from the manual doesn't match that of the units in the auction. How do you know its the Tally P-120? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 21 12:09:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 10:09:14 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <4448B8CC.3000404@ais.fraunhofer.de> References: <20060417222142.YLOK8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200604192334.45273.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604192103340090.7DBA9B0E@10.0.0.252> <200604201340.29489.rtellason@blazenet.net> <4448B8CC.3000404@ais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <200604211009140757.85B04607@10.0.0.252> On 4/21/2006 at 12:49 PM Holger Veit wrote: >> what brand of chip, etc. so I've never been really tempted to use them >I know of a least one software (which I had disassembled myself for >curiosity long ago) that actually uses undocumented Z80 instructions, >namely the ones that allow access to the higher and lower haves of the >index registers: this is the 12K-Zapple-Basic by TDL. Concerning these >instructions, they seem to work on most common Z80s, including Z80A, B, >and H variants, tried those myself. I haven't verified, due to lack of >HW, where they also work on the 64180, the z180 or z280. Those upper-lower IX/IY undocumented instructions seem to be very straightforward. DD/FD prefixes simply indicate whether IX or IY should be used in place of HL. Undocumented EDs on the Z80 are another kettle of fish, however. On the 8085, one important use of RIM and SIM is handling of TRAP conditions. I've got a system here that uses TRAP to diagnose accesses of non-existent peripherals and memory parity errors as well a keyboard entry akin to (Ctrl+Alt+Del). Out of curiosity, I got my old Grid laptop with a NEC V30 CPU out and started to try some of the "undocumented" 8085 opcodes on it. Well, the few that I've tried aren't no-ops, but on the the other hand, they don't do anything particularly exciting. For example, 28 seems to be identical in operation to DAD H (29), while 38 seems to act identically to INR H (24). FD appears to read the next byte and use it to set or clear the parity and half-carry flags. My guess is that part of the CPI instruction logic's being used, although the other flags (C, Z and S) don't seem to be affected. I haven't tried any others--it's pretty obvious that undefined opcodes in V30 8080 emulation mode simply take flying leaps into the logic array. How this compares with, say, a NEC C8080A is something that I'm not equipped to answer. After all these years, I'm still not certain that those who exploited the undocumented instructions in any of these chips saved much in the way of speed or space. About the only significant exception I can think of is the 80286 LOADALL instruction, which was only semi-documented by Intel. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 21 12:14:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 10:14:29 -0700 Subject: Govliquidation paper tape punch In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2565FE@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2565FE@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <200604211014290349.85B512E7@10.0.0.252> On 4/21/2006 at 11:51 AM James Fogg wrote: >Same or similar model was used with COM systems and fiche cameras. This >made something like an aperture card where indexing info was on a >punched header that was glued to the fiche. .gov was big into indexed >fiche systems, it may have come from such an environment. The government also owns/owned many CNC systems, some of which, I suspect, also ( may take/took paper tape. Cheers, Chuck From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Apr 21 12:19:42 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 18:19:42 +0100 Subject: RL02 problem References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816AD@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <006201c66567$c73df0c0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> Many thanks to all who replied. I copied the monitor back onto the back (the XM monitor was hidden in KIT.DSK), and the pack now boots again. More importantly, I can play Adventure again :) Jim. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 21 12:25:17 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 11:25:17 -0600 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <4448B8CC.3000404@ais.fraunhofer.de> References: <20060417222142.YLOK8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200604192334.45273.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604192103340090.7DBA9B0E@10.0.0.252> <200604201340.29489.rtellason@blazenet.net> <4448B8CC.3000404@ais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <4449157D.4030709@jetnet.ab.ca> Holger Veit wrote: > I know of a least one software (which I had disassembled myself for > curiosity long ago) that actually uses undocumented Z80 instructions, > namely the ones that allow access to the higher and lower haves of the > index registers: this is the 12K-Zapple-Basic by TDL. Concerning these > instructions, they seem to work on most common Z80s, including Z80A, B, > and H variants, tried those myself. I haven't verified, due to lack of > HW, where they also work on the 64180, the z180 or z280. I think I have read that some versions of floating point routines made use of the un-documented instructions. One version of Small-C for the Z80 made use of this. > Holger From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Apr 21 14:12:25 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 20:12:25 +0100 Subject: DECserver 200MC circuit diagram References: Message-ID: <012301c66577$8701e600$0200a8c0@p2deskto> Hi Tony, thanks for your previous reply. I've sort of fixed it....... The power supply is repaired (two new input side smoothing caps,and one diode). It is of a strange hybrid design, with a chopper on the primary side of a transformer, but no obvious feedback for regulation, then on the secondary side, a second SM unit for the 5V line, and two 78xx type regulators for the 12V rails. Th remaining fault is within the soldered up filter / overload trip / voltage selector unit, which has an open circuit live line. It seems to be special to the Decserver (I had a spare from a scrap DELNI, but it is subtley different), so I'll have to wait for another to show up. Once again, thanks for your help Jim. From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Apr 21 15:11:44 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 16:11:44 -0400 Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: References: <26c11a640604200701l4c5c1dafi817f06786b5e9d39@mail.gmail.com> <200604210247.10911.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200604211611.44354.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 21 April 2006 05:53 am, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/21/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Friday 21 April 2006 12:35 am, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > The two most common failures in my experience are the PLA (82S100 - > > > identical to the one in a standard C-64) and the keyboard. > > > > If I understand this stuff right, "82S100" is the part number for that > > chip in generic, unprogrammed form. They had a different number for it, > > 906114-01 or something like that. > > Yes. Someone did work out the fuse map at one point, so if you had a > suitable programmer and a blank 82S100, you could crank out fresh > PLAs. That'd be nice... Not that I have a programmer for those, but that really was a common failure item in those machines, for some reason. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 21 15:30:54 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 14:30:54 -0600 Subject: Another great Craters & Freighters experience Message-ID: Being such a freak about serial terminals and graphics made it impossible for me to resist this lot at DoveBid's Telogy #5 auction: (4) Tektronix 4105A color graphics terminals (6) Tektronix 9200T color display terminals (8) Tektronix 9201T color display terminals (1) PEP301 16 MHz System Controller Estimated weight: 1,000 lbs. (I also picked up a Tektronix 4041 System Controller and a couple Random Colleague VT102 laptops. The 4041 came in its original box!) So I needed to get the items picked up from Telogy, packed up for shipment and sent from SF Bay Area, CA to Salt Lake City, UT. Based on my experience with C&F for my Megatek Whizzard 1645, I decided to use them again since they partnered with dovebid. I opted for slightly more expensive (~12% additional) packing where each unit was packed in its own box and these were paletted and freight shipped. The result was two pallets delivered to my house (no loading dock). The nice thing is that every unit is now properly boxed for safe UPS style shipping, making it easy for me to sell & ship some of the duplicates to defray the shipping costs. I could have opted for the "cardboard crate" style of packing which would load units on top of each other separated by cushioning. I think I prefer the individually boxed option for safety as well as for the convenience of resale. I've been watching ebay for a while and these 4105 terminals haven't shown up there at all. I know they are in the 3rd party reseller channel, but they always want like $500 a piece for them. The 9200T and 9201Ts are beasts I haven't ever heard of before, but I'm willing to bet that they are really something like 4105As under the covers. I haven't decided what I'm going to piece out yet, but if you have an interest in any of the terminals or the PEP301, email me off list. There's a very good chance that these have their manuals with them, I only *just* received delivery and I'm still hauling boxes into my basement and haven't inventoried everything yet :-). All in all I'm very happy with the shipping services provided by Craters & Freighters and I would recommend them to anyone who is bidding on remote items through the net and needs a comprehensive pickup, pack up and ship out service. My only relationship with them is as a satisfied customer! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Apr 21 15:46:49 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 16:46:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: <200604211611.44354.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <20060421204649.6BD6758265@mail.wordstock.com> > > On Friday 21 April 2006 05:53 am, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 4/21/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > On Friday 21 April 2006 12:35 am, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > The two most common failures in my experience are the PLA (82S100 - > > > > identical to the one in a standard C-64) and the keyboard. > > > > > > If I understand this stuff right, "82S100" is the part number for that > > > chip in generic, unprogrammed form. They had a different number for it, > > > 906114-01 or something like that. > > > > Yes. Someone did work out the fuse map at one point, so if you had a > > suitable programmer and a blank 82S100, you could crank out fresh > > PLAs. > > That'd be nice... > > Not that I have a programmer for those, but that really was a common failure > item in those machines, for some reason. > http://www.6502.org domain has expired :( (Google has the main page cached from April 15, 2005) and http://www.zimmers.net seems to be down. From my search today it seems these are the places that have the fuse map. Cheers, Bryan Trenton Computer Festival is this weekend - MARCH will be there! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 21 15:52:20 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 14:52:20 -0600 Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 21 Apr 2006 16:46:49 -0400. <20060421204649.6BD6758265@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: In article <20060421204649.6BD6758265 at mail.wordstock.com>, bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) writes: > http://www.6502.org domain has expired :( Ouch! Hopefully its just a temporary outage. Did you try the Wayback Machine on ? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Apr 21 16:02:40 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 17:02:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060421210240.735ED5823E@mail.wordstock.com> > > > In article <20060421204649.6BD6758265 at mail.wordstock.com>, > bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) writes: > > > http://www.6502.org domain has expired :( > > Ouch! Hopefully its just a temporary outage. > > Did you try the Wayback Machine on ? I just did and they have a copy from March 10, 2005.. It will take awhile to grep through it to find the fuse map. Cheers, Bryan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 21 16:55:32 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 22:55:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1350A vs 1351A In-Reply-To: <44483648.9040807@sbcglobal.net> from "Bob Rosenbloom" at Apr 20, 6 06:32:56 pm Message-ID: > > <>No, I'm not sure. It's been a long time. However that's the > resolutions given in the manual for the 1350 and > in the HP 1980 and 1982 catalogs. Probably they are just rounding it > off. The manual does mention the X=1022, > Y=1023 max values for a plot absolute command. I looked in my HP1350 manual, and it's inconsistant. At one point it claims the resolution is 1022*1023, at another place it gives the range of parameters to the plot command as 0-1022 and 0-1023. Personally, I believe the latter, there are good hardware reasons why that's the case. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 21 16:43:05 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 22:43:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cosmetic replicas In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Apr 20, 6 05:38:42 pm Message-ID: > > > In article <44480ECB.2020409 at yahoo.co.uk>, > Jules Richardson writes: > > > William Donzelli wrote: > > > > Most people do not know this, so I do not blame you. It is common museum > > > practice when restoring objects. > > > > In some cases museum practice seems a little odd, though. [...] > > I wonder what the curators at the Henry Ford Museum do as a matter of > practice. Lots of curator "practice" comes from art and antique museums > where you definately don't want to "repair" anything. Witness how on > Antiques Road Show they point out that the value is less if its a > piece of furniture that has been refinished. I have made simialr comments in the past. Computers (and other technical artefacts) are not fine art, and don't necessarily need to be covered by the same rules. IMHO the London Science Muaseum's policy is broken. I discovered this when I offered them some flip-chip boards to replace missing ones in one of their machines. They refused because mine, although the correct types, were a couple of years later than the machine. I would have expected them to have marked them as replacements, to keep a log book, and so on. But surely a complete machine is more use than an incomplete one. And to top it all, it was as machine that had been used and taken out of service, and then donated to the museum. I would be _very_ suprised if none of the flip-chip boards had been replaced during its working life. To comment on some other points that have been raised in this discussion. Yes, a log book can get lost or separated from the machine. This is not a reason for not keeping one (IMHO a log book should be kept for any rare machine that you're working on), it's surely a good reason to keep multiple copies of the log. Yes, it's _possible_ somebody will want to research the paint used on a classic computer some time in the distant future. I think it's more likely, though, they'll be more interested in the electronic design of the machine, in the programs it ran, in the uses it was put to (e.g. 'This machine was the first (popular home comuter)|(machine to bring word processing to the masses)|(etc)'), and so on. So IMHO machines should be kept running as far as possible. With reference to the comment that a reproduction front panel constructed differently to the origianl might confuse future researchers, why do the vintage radio crowd insist on re-stuffing electrolytic capacitor cans? That IMHO is very likely to cause confusion as to the original construction. I won't do this, I simply mount a new, suitable, capacitor in place of the old one. And I've been flamed for doing so. > However, the Henry Ford Museum tries to preserve technological > artifacts in working condition and I'm willing to bet that they have a > different set of rules than the average museum for how an item is to > be restored. Another thought. I read a monthly magazine called 'Clocks' which not suprisingly is about antique clocks, both the history and the repair/restoration. Many of the clocks described and repaird there are rarer than most of the computers we deal with here. But almost always they are repaired, it it considered normal to cut a new wheel, bush the pivot holes in the plates, and so on. And it appears no record is kept of this work. A related thing could be the Salisbury clock (the oldest mechanical clock still running IIRC). It was found stuck in the catherdal tower about 80 years ago, and fortunately somebody recognised what it was. It had been converted from the origianl foliot balance to a pendulum at some point in its life. Anyway, it was cleaned up, and converted back to the orignal design (as far as can be determined). The new parts are painted a slightly different colour, so they can be identified, and of course records have been made of what was done. But it most certainly has not been left in the ' as found' condition. And that is a much rarer and much more significant artefact than anything we deal with on this list. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 21 16:45:18 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 22:45:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cosmetic replicas In-Reply-To: <444824A6.2020503@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Apr 21, 6 01:17:42 am Message-ID: > Of course, keeping the reproduction parts to a minimum is still desirable, and > logging any non-original parts that have been used seems like a very good idea... I would also suggest keeping any compoents that were removed with the machine (e.g. if you replace a chip,. stick the old one in bag inside the machine, in a box with the log book, whatever). This applies, of course, only to rare/significant machines, it's not necessary for people repairing Apple ][+'s :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 21 17:13:18 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 23:13:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 21, 6 09:53:50 pm Message-ID: > > On 4/21/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Friday 21 April 2006 12:35 am, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > The two most common failures in my experience are the PLA (82S100 - > > > identical to the one in a standard C-64) and the keyboard. > > > > If I understand this stuff right, "82S100" is the part number for that chip > > in generic, unprogrammed form. They had a different number for it, > > 906114-01 or something like that. > > Yes. Someone did work out the fuse map at one point, so if you had a > suitable programmer and a blank 82S100, you could crank out fresh > PLAs. Given the fuse map and the 82S100 data sheet, it's easy to work out the logic equations. It should be possible to program some more modern CPLD to replace this chip, I would have thought. The basic architecture of the 82S100 is that there are 16 inputs. These, and their inverses, can be ANDed in any combination to make 48 'product terms'. The 8 outputs are produced by ORing any combination of the product terms (note you can use the same product term in more than 1 output if you want). Each output can also be inverted if desired. Note that unlike a PAL or GAL, you program both the AND and OR matricies. And the device is a lot faster than most traditional EPROMs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 21 17:19:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 23:19:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: DECserver 200MC circuit diagram In-Reply-To: <012301c66577$8701e600$0200a8c0@p2deskto> from "Jim Beacon" at Apr 21, 6 08:12:25 pm Message-ID: > Th remaining fault is within the soldered up filter / overload trip / > voltage selector unit, which has an open circuit live line. It seems to be > special to the Decserver (I had a spare from a scrap DELNI, but it is > subtley different), so I'll have to wait for another to show up. I've been known to use a _BIG_ soldering iron to get those cans apart (I took apart the filter cans in a Modem 2B...). Anyway, home many connections from this unit to the rest of the PSU? Most of the time, there's mains input (2 wires, live and neutral) and another pair to the voltage selector which are connected for 115V and open for 230V (this converts the input bridge rectifier to a voltage doubler for the lower mains voltage, I am sure you know the circuit). The mains input IEC plug goes throught a traditional LC filter -- the normal circuit is a capacitor between L and N on the input side, then a bifilar-wound choke, then three delta-connected capacitors between L, N and E. The live side -- after the filter, normally -- is fused. Then the output of that goes to the PSU. Unless there's something serieously unconventional going on, it should be possible to make up a replacement. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 21 16:52:35 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 22:52:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone got a spare HPIL keyboard? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Apr 20, 6 06:39:09 pm Message-ID: > > I purchased an HP2397A color terminal. It needs a monitor and > keyboard. The monitor is straightforward and can be taken care of > with a cable. (Although it would be nice to find the appropriate HP > period monitor.) The keyboard is a different story. I need an HPIL > keyboard. Its my understanding that any HPIL keyboard would work, but No you don't. HP never made an HPIL keyboard. The only HPIL keyboard that I know about is the hack described in the book 'Control the World with HPIL', to add a bigger keyboard to the HP71. What uou need is an HP-HIL keyboard. Those are relatively common -- some HP9000/200 and hP9000/300 series machines used them, as did the HP150-II and the HP Integral. Along with some terminals, of course. HPIL == Hewlett Packard Interface Loop HP-HIL == Hewlett Packard Human Interface Link > that I'd need one that understands HPIL and couldn't rig up a stock > PS2 style keyboard. No, HP-HIL is very different to the PC keyboard interface. I do have some information on HP-HIL -- enough to tell me I don't want to have to design my own peripherals if I can avoid it. The HP keyboards contain a custom HP-HIL slave chip, a COP400 series microcontroller, and a few 4000-series CMOS chips to link to the key matrix. >From what I rememeber, there are various 'national' versions of the standard HP-HIL keyboard. The differences are in the keytops (not suprisingly) and also in the fitting f up to 8 diodes inside which determine the ID byte sent back by the keyboard. The system uses this to work out what keyboard is connected, and thus what character code to assign to each key. Your termninal should work correctly with any HP-HIL keyboard. No I don't think I have a spare one... -tony From bear at typewritten.org Fri Apr 21 18:11:26 2006 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 16:11:26 -0700 Subject: troubleshooting Macintosh II no-power situation Message-ID: <141DE1EE-E0DE-4BC8-9CB1-7D49CF4D23B9@typewritten.org> Howdy folks; I've recently added a Macintosh II, IIx, and IIfx to my collection. The IIfx works. The II and IIx fail to power-up. Nothing happens when the power button is pressed on either machine. It's not the power supply, as the PSU from the working IIfx fails to power up either the II or IIx. It's not the battery either, at least in the case of the II, as I've replaced both batteries to no avail. Can anybody point out any other likely culprits that I can chase down? Thanks! ok bear From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 21 18:33:16 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 17:33:16 -0600 Subject: Another great Craters & Freighters experience In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 21 Apr 2006 14:30:54 -0600. Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > (I also picked up a Tektronix 4041 System Controller and a couple > Random Colleague VT102 laptops. The 4041 came in its original > box!) Um.. yeah :-) The 4041 is new in box, the manual seals have not been broken and it came with a slab of 6 ROM packs including the development pack :-). Not bad for $25! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 21 18:36:03 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 17:36:03 -0600 Subject: Anyone got a spare HPIL keyboard? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 21 Apr 2006 22:52:35 +0100. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > No you don't. HP never made an HPIL keyboard. [...] > What uou need is an HP-HIL keyboard. [...] That's what I love about this list, I always learn something :). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From recycler at swbell.net Fri Apr 21 19:00:00 2006 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick Jankowiak) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 19:00:00 -0500 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <44485251.7090808@swbell.net> Message-ID: <44497200.9040607@swbell.net> No core memory, the electron beam writes through a dielectric mesh to the phosphor coating, leaving a charge on the mesh. If the storage mode is on, a flood gun illuminates the entire backside of the dielectric, and the charges on the previously written areas allow more of the electrons through to the phosphor than on the uncharged areas thereby keeping an image of the charged area on the screen, and at the same time replentishing the charged areas on the dielectric mesh. The manual says it can be held 'indefinitely' but cautions leaving it for more than an hour lest the mesh acquire such a charge that it could take a day to discharge and recover. It's a strictly analog regenerative memory. Patrick Paxton Hoag wrote: >>Does a '50's Hughes 104D memo-scope storage oscilloscope scope count? >> > > Doesn't that have core memory. My stepmother hand threaded core for > Hughes in the late 1950s and early 60s. > > To be on topic the earlest Graphics system I have in my collection > currently would be an Apolo 570. Although I have had lots of earlier > systems go through my hands in the 1990s. > > We hauled a truckload back to PDX from the last Calma auction in '88 or '89. > -- > Paxton Hoag > Astoria, OR > USA > > From recycler at swbell.net Fri Apr 21 19:09:04 2006 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick Jankowiak) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 19:09:04 -0500 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <200604191642520532.7CCBF089@10.0.0.252> References: <20060419155724.O49091@shell.lmi.net> <200604191642520532.7CCBF089@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44497420.2090801@swbell.net> Well, the ranking of this people-driven display would depend on the earliest recorded implementation of the technology. Would a minimum number of pixels such as perhaps 512 (16x32) be acceptable for research purposes? This would approximate early television. oops.. now I've mentioned something from the 1920's.. but no one on this list probably has such a mechanical monstrosity with (some kind of) a 'video' input. modern TV set with built in tuner does not qualify -must be monitor not TV. PJ Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/19/2006 at 3:59 PM Fred Cisin wrote: > > >>Would you prefer only CRTs? > > > Well, maybe LEDs and lightbulbs. > > Come to think of it, how about people? > > http://1stopkorea.com/index.htm?nk-trip5.htm~mainframe > http://www.asiapacificms.com/articles/pixel_people/ > > > > > > From recycler at swbell.net Fri Apr 21 19:22:50 2006 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick Jankowiak) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 19:22:50 -0500 Subject: 1965 DEC Logic Trainer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4449775A.8090504@swbell.net> wow.. that was what you called "building your own PC".. PJ Doug Salot wrote: > I plan to offer this on eBay this weekend, but I thought I'd give the list > sort of an auction preview before I do. If there's anybody in the > Seattle area willing to make a serious offer and pick this up from > Bainbridge Island, I'd certainly consider offers. > > Date codes are from 1965. It has several straight-8 era flip chips > plugged in. Includes an 18-bit set of indicator lights which aren't clear > in the photo since they need an attachment screw tightened. The chassis > appears to be made by a third-party. > > http://blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/dec/logic/front.jpg > > http://blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/dec/logic/back.jpg > > > From recycler at swbell.net Fri Apr 21 19:40:21 2006 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick Jankowiak) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 19:40:21 -0500 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44497B75.50800@swbell.net> I do have a 1971 Tektronix RM503, as used for vector graphics display in older DEC pdp systems. http://www.bunkerofdoom.com/kd5oei/anatest1/nasa_RM503_20060406.jpg From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 21 19:49:49 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 17:49:49 -0700 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <44497420.2090801@swbell.net> References: <20060419155724.O49091@shell.lmi.net> <200604191642520532.7CCBF089@10.0.0.252> <44497420.2090801@swbell.net> Message-ID: <200604211749490312.8755EEDA@10.0.0.252> On 4/21/2006 at 7:09 PM Patrick Jankowiak wrote: >Well, the ranking of this people-driven display would depend on the >earliest recorded implementation of the technology. Would a minimum number >of pixels such as perhaps 512 (16x32) be acceptable for research purposes? >This would approximate early television. oops.. now I've mentioned >something from the 1920's.. but no one on this list probably has such a >mechanical monstrosity with (some kind of) a 'video' input. modern TV set >with built in tuner does not qualify -must be monitor not TV. Folks are still building those beasts, Nipkov disks and all: http://www.sptv.demon.co.uk/nbtv/index.html Well, now we're getting somewhere! Would a mirror galvanometer qualify as a vector display? A Duddell oscillograph? An ondograph? That would put the technology well into the 19th century. And the gizmos used by Helmholtz to generate waveform patterns might even be construed as graphical display devices.... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 21 19:51:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 17:51:50 -0700 Subject: BIOS listing for a Cifer 2684 Message-ID: <200604211751500412.8757C7E0@10.0.0.252> Does anyone have the CBIOS in source form for a Cifer 2684? I'm looking into a project and need some info that could be answered easily by the CBIOS. Thanks, Chuck From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Apr 21 22:14:41 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 22:14:41 -0500 Subject: Avail: IBM 3.5" drive carriers Message-ID: <20060422021547.YYKR8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> In a pile of other equipment just received, I found Qty 6 IBM 3.5" drive carriers of the type often found in servers. They have black faceplates with a large black lever that has a purplish blue release catch. Front label (in lower left corner) reads: IBM 73.4 GB 10k U160 FRU 06P5760 These are carriers only - no drives. Knowning how long it took me to find carriers for my Compaq server - it seems a shame to toss them. Anyone need/want them? Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Apr 21 21:57:22 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 22:57:22 -0400 Subject: troubleshooting Macintosh II no-power situation References: <141DE1EE-E0DE-4BC8-9CB1-7D49CF4D23B9@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <005401c665b8$7b53b8b0$8c5c1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "r.stricklin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 7:11 PM Subject: troubleshooting Macintosh II no-power situation > Howdy folks; > > I've recently added a Macintosh II, IIx, and IIfx to my collection. > > The IIfx works. > > The II and IIx fail to power-up. Nothing happens when the power > button is pressed on either machine. > > It's not the power supply, as the PSU from the working IIfx fails to > power up either the II or IIx. > > It's not the battery either, at least in the case of the II, as I've > replaced both batteries to no avail. > > Can anybody point out any other likely culprits that I can chase down? > > Thanks! > > ok > bear The models listed have 2 PRAM batteries, one of which is used to jump start the power supply. If both batteries are fully charged try holding the power on button in the back for a second or so and see if they power up, if not take everything out and check the motherboard for leaky caps or other damage. I tend to take all the excess cards, extra RAM, and the HD out of the system and see if it will boot to floppy when nothing works. Make sure somebody didn't take out the CPU or something before you got your hands on it. If you need more help you can also try www.68kmla.net and post the question in the forum. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 21 22:47:02 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 15:47:02 +1200 Subject: RL02 problem In-Reply-To: <006201c66567$c73df0c0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816AD@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <006201c66567$c73df0c0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> Message-ID: On 4/22/06, Jim Beacon wrote: > Many thanks to all who replied. > > I copied the monitor back onto the back (the XM monitor was hidden in > KIT.DSK), and the pack now boots again. Excellent. > More importantly, I can play Adventure again :) Sweet. Great use for the kit. This is on a vanilla 11/23+? How's the response time? My first experiences with Adventure were on an 11/750, so it didn't seem too slow. -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Apr 21 22:51:19 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 23:51:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone got a spare HPIL keyboard? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604220355.XAA18682@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > What uou need is an HP-HIL keyboard. [...] > No I don't think I have a spare one... I think I have a few spares. I can't check now - I'm in a different city from my keyboard collection - but I'm moderately sure I've got something like six or eight, and I don't expect to ever need more than half of them. While I'll have to retract the offer if half the list tries to take me up on it, if you need one for something, drop me a line and we'll see what we can work out. (I recommend sending a cc to mouse at netbsd.org; between that and a direct copy you have about as good a chance of actually getting through to me as is available.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From schoedel at host.kw.igs.net Wed Apr 19 08:55:19 2006 From: schoedel at host.kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 09:55:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pro-350 anyone? In-Reply-To: <004101c66176$41484b90$eeeea8c0@GUL> Message-ID: <200604191355.k3JDtJ8F048155@host.kw.igs.net> >The sad thing is a non working Decna-K in one ofthe Pro's . I once 'fixed' a dead one by cleaning and reseating the socketed DIPs. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From steerex at mindspring.com Mon Apr 17 13:16:48 2006 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 14:16:48 -0400 Subject: Back up 9 Track to CD Message-ID: <01C66229.912A0870@MAGGIE> >>I've also got a pile of spare 9GB HD's. I suppose I could dump the images there as well. With multiple copy's on CD >>and on HD's. The data should be safe. > >>There is a 9 track attached to my HPUX 10.20 box so, reading and writing the tapes is no problem. The HPUX box >>does not have a CD burner directly attached although, I can FTP files to a WINDOWS box and burn CD's there. >> >>So the question is: >>Can I just DD the tapes to a file and stick the file on CD/HD then recreate the tape from the CD when needed? > Nope. >You need to keep track of the block sizes as you read the tape. Also you >need to keep track of the EOT markers. dd doesn't do this. >You should be able to find a program on the net that will read the data >into a .tap (or similar) file (anyone have a link?). This program really >should be added to the simh tools, if it isn't already. >I've written a version in basic for VMS, but that isn't going to help >you very much with unix. After sending the original message, I found a "copytape" utility in some old archives. I had to hack the code to get it to compile under HPUX but, it's finally working, more or less. The utility reads a tape to a file/tape preserving the blocking. I copied an old HPUX install tape, with multiple block sizes, to a file. I was then able to create a tape from the archive that LOOKs like an original tape. Until I do a complete install using the copies, I can't be sure they'll actually work. >From the looks of it, this might be the solution I've been looking for. The program could really use some additional features. Like an ASCII header appended to the beginning of the file to indicate what the file is, how to recreate the original tape, system, date / timestamp, etc... Hmmmm... I guess that'll give me someting to do :-) Thanks, SteveRob From lkrause377 at aol.com Wed Apr 19 17:20:05 2006 From: lkrause377 at aol.com (Lutz Krause) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 00:20:05 +0200 Subject: Quadram Quadboard Message-ID: <31E8A721-C73F-4C54-AD34-93CE7546A79F@aol.com> Hallo, to install the Quadram Quadboard in my IBM-XT I need some help. I found Your message about the manual. My Board is rev. 6 from 1984. Can You give me some informations about this board? Greetings Lutz Hallo, um einQuadboard von 1984 8Rev. 6) in meinen IBM-XT zu integrieren ben?tige ich einige Infos ?ber Hard- und Softwareeinstellungen. MfG Lutz = From flo at uk.thalesgroup.com Thu Apr 20 04:37:14 2006 From: flo at uk.thalesgroup.com (Paul Williams) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 10:37:14 +0100 Subject: HP 87XM available in West Sussex, UK Message-ID: <4447564A.10107@uk.thalesgroup.com> I've just pulled a working Hewlett-Packard 87XM out of some test equipment at work. It has the following bits with it: 82939A Opt. 001 Serial Interface 82936A ROM Drawer with 00087-15003 Rev. A I/O ROM 82909A 128K Memory Module 82901M Flexible Disc Drive (2 x 5?" drives) No manuals, no software. Take the whole thing, pick-up only from Crawley. I don't care about timescales. Reply to paul at frixxon.co.uk From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 20 17:09:10 2006 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (a.carlini at ntlworld.com) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 23:09:10 +0100 Subject: DEC M3134-PA DS500 module In-Reply-To: <016901c664c0$ba7adb70$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <005101c664c7$0e7b7800$c901a8c0@tempname> Jay West wrote: > However, I think you're missing the basic concept here. The IBM coax > terminals do not speak ascii, nor do they speak RS232. Nor are they > character based like ANY and EVERY terminal you've probably delt with > before. The electrical spec isn't similar to RS232 but current > loop... it is a fundamentally different thing. These terminals are > not only block mode, they speak a VERY robust protocol between the > host and the display. It would be quite difficult to make sense out > of the datastream between the terminal and host in a character based > environment. I know next to nothing about the M3134. It implements enough to allow you to hook a 3270-speaking terminal to a DECserver 550. Quite whether that terminal was then intended to talk to a DEC system or an IBM system is not clear to me. There were DEC applications that (apparently) could use block-mode terminals (the VT131 and/or VT132 did block mode didn't they) but whether the DS550 would translate the 3270-terminal-speak into something suitable or not, I don't know. But I think at the very least the physical layer issues must be solved by this card (otherwise what's the point)? Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Apr 22 02:23:41 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 08:23:41 +0100 Subject: RL02 problem References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816AD@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><006201c66567$c73df0c0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> Message-ID: <005201c665dd$aeed4180$0200a8c0@p2deskto> From: "Ethan Dicks" > On 4/22/06, Jim Beacon wrote: > > > More importantly, I can play Adventure again :) > > Sweet. Great use for the kit. This is on a vanilla 11/23+? How's > the response time? My first experiences with Adventure were on an > 11/750, so it didn't seem too slow. > The response is reasonable - slow enough to read the scrolling data easily, but no real delay after entering a command. The system at the moment is 11/23+ processor, RLV12 with two RL02s, RX02 and 1.5MB of memory (I know that RT11 only uses 28K, but they were the cards that came with the system, and I have a copy of RSX11, when I get around to trying it...), there is also a Compaq 486/33 pretending to be a TU58. The terminal of choice is a VT100, but I use a VT320 for Pacman and Space Invaders - I haven't got the settings properly sorted on the VT100 yet, and cursor control isn't correct (the "graphics" just scroll down one side, rather than producing the game screen). Jim. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 03:02:41 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 20:02:41 +1200 Subject: DEC M3134-PA DS500 module In-Reply-To: <005101c664c7$0e7b7800$c901a8c0@tempname> References: <016901c664c0$ba7adb70$6500a8c0@BILLING> <005101c664c7$0e7b7800$c901a8c0@tempname> Message-ID: On 4/21/06, a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > Jay West wrote: > > However, I think you're missing the basic concept here. The IBM coax > > terminals do not speak ascii, nor do they speak RS232. Nor are they > > character based like ANY and EVERY terminal you've probably delt with > > before. The electrical spec isn't similar to RS232 but current > > loop... > > I know next to nothing about the M3134. It implements enough to > allow you to hook a 3270-speaking terminal to a DECserver 550. I, too, know little about the M3134 (but I used to manufacture IBM protocol emulators for HASP, 3780 and SNA, including 3270 emulators)... about all I _do_ know about the M3134 is that the output physical layer is some form of coax. If that doesn't directly connect a 3270-type terminal, I can't imagine what it's for. I've only ever plugged genuine IBM 3270 terminals into a 3274, and a 3274 into a 4331 (mid 1980s, for those at home keeping score). Now... from an application standpoint, it would be helpful if the M3134 did some protocol massaging (ASCII<->EBCDIC, 3270 to stream-of-bytes,etc), but I don't know what it really does. -ethan From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Fri Apr 21 17:39:54 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 00:39:54 +0200 Subject: M4 9914 Manuals In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90604202305x1dc1ef94me544d1dae03d66a6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90604201354n30ce989er9fcf185c15285de3@mail.gmail.com> <002001c664f0$09a84870$2101a8c0@finans> <1e1fc3e90604202305x1dc1ef94me544d1dae03d66a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1145659194.3928.103.camel@fortran.babel> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 23:05 -0700, Glen Slick wrote: > Thanks for the offer, but that is one of the two manuals that I > already found a copy of on the net. It is the other manuals (121780, > 121789, 123477) that I didn't find. The National Archives in Norway has an M4 with a full complement of documentation. I will try to persuade my friend who works there to scan this in the conveniently adjacent document scanner. -toresbe :) From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Fri Apr 21 18:56:07 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 01:56:07 +0200 Subject: ibm bookmanager (.boo) files? In-Reply-To: <44453FBC.4080602@mdrconsult.com> References: <010001c6628a$aa5f0280$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <44447562.8020004@mdrconsult.com> <200604172220390617.73B47E36@10.0.0.252> <44447BAD.9020902@mdrconsult.com> <20060418122116.G82475@shell.lmi.net> <44453FBC.4080602@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <1145663767.3928.125.camel@fortran.babel> On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 14:36 -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > You mean the virus named "Windows"? Viruses are usually small, efficient, and ingeniously implemented, so no. Plus, they're free. -toresbe :) From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Fri Apr 21 19:02:51 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 02:02:51 +0200 Subject: How much to charge for classic computer rental In-Reply-To: <012501c66436$2ef68fc0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <200604182318.k3INIXoU033223@keith.ezwind.net> <200604181748380327.77E1CFDE@10.0.0.252> <4446F0A6.10600@oldskool.org> <200604192118460018.7DC88521@10.0.0.252> <44470F38.80802@oldskool.org> <012501c66436$2ef68fc0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <1145664171.3928.128.camel@fortran.babel> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 00:52 -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: > There is nothing wrong with being a public defender your whole life, its an > honorable profession. I have to say the people I find to be clueless in > court (the times I got stuck doing jury duty) were the prosecutors. At the Jon Lech Johansen DeCSS trials the prosecutor was not only rude but alarmingly clueless - she at several points in time demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of what something so fundamental to the trial as source code was, and managed to make statements to the effect that Linux was only something hackers used (of course with the wrong meaning of the word 'hacker') Amusingly, KRIPOS, the police dept. for which she works, uses Linux servers for webservers and internal services. Damned haxxors. -toresbe :) From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Fri Apr 21 18:48:40 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 01:48:40 +0200 Subject: ADDS Mentor 2000 - Got it to boot! In-Reply-To: <001f01c66038$087e0730$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <20060415021651.KMNG20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <001f01c66038$087e0730$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1145663320.3928.123.camel@fortran.babel> On Fri, 2006-04-14 at 21:55 -0500, Jay West wrote: > > 1) Does anyone know of a way to bypass the SYSPROG > > password? > Yup, but it isn't easy (unless you're well up on the system debugger). I'll > go through it off-list if no one answers. Though in this case it was successfully bypassed, I'd consider this valuable knowledge to have in the cctalk archives -- or maybe in some knowledge base? Could you please for availability's sake write this up at a convenient time? -toresbe :) From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Fri Apr 21 18:11:54 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 01:11:54 +0200 Subject: HP 1000 cmoputer (parts maybe) In-Reply-To: <006501c663cd$51ddbe50$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <4445DBD8.8070301@msm.umr.edu> <006501c663cd$51ddbe50$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1145661114.3928.114.camel@fortran.babel> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 11:21 -0500, Jay West wrote: > > It appeared to have had a Tandberg tape drive attached at some time. > In all my years of focusing on HP 2100/21MX M-E-F boxes, I've only come > across ONE of those tandberg tape interfaces. I'd love to know what drive > they went to - I believe the tandberg interface was 3rd party. I would > imagine (given "Tandberg") that we're talking QIC-525 or something like > that? I have no clue, as I said I've only seen one interface. I stuck in on > the shelf in case I ever found said drive :) Tandberg did not only make QIC tapes. They were very big on reel-to-reel audio back in the day - a major innovator and a cornerstone Norwegian company - but Tandberg Data was separated out when the radio part went bust (which is a complete shame - their stuff was incredibly well-designed.) and continued to make data tape drives and (also one of my favorite) terminals. Anyway, they made terminals and I believe they also made 9-track tape drives. I have spoken to people on Usenet who still work at Tandberg Data and who have been around for a while. If you'd like some info I could definitely forward questions. -toresbe :) From dave06a at dunfield.com Sat Apr 22 05:43:00 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 05:43:00 -0500 Subject: Avail: IBM 3.5" drive carriers In-Reply-To: <20060422021547.YYKR8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20060422094406.EQXY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> So far I've received two responses on the carriers, however I seem to have managed to delete one of them and keep my original post instead ... If you sent me email about the carriers, and didn't get a response, please resend it (they are still available). Dave > In a pile of other equipment just received, I found > Qty 6 IBM 3.5" drive carriers of the type often found > in servers. > > They have black faceplates with a large black lever > that has a purplish blue release catch. > > Front label (in lower left corner) reads: > > IBM 73.4 GB 10k > U160 FRU 06P5760 > > These are carriers only - no drives. > > Knowning how long it took me to find > carriers for my Compaq server - it seems > a shame to toss them. Anyone need/want > them? -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sat Apr 22 04:44:18 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 11:44:18 +0200 Subject: RL02 problem References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816AD@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><006201c66567$c73df0c0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D0@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Sorry to drift a bit off-topic (RL02 problem), but I have a question regarding Adventure running on the 11/750, Ethan. I have an 11/750 and would love to run Adventure on it :-) Did you use the PDP-11 RT-11 Adventure version , or is there a version of Adventure specific for for the VAX-11/750 ? - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Ethan Dicks Verzonden: za 22-04-2006 05:47 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: RL02 problem On 4/22/06, Jim Beacon wrote: > Many thanks to all who replied. > > I copied the monitor back onto the back (the XM monitor was hidden in > KIT.DSK), and the pack now boots again. Excellent. > More importantly, I can play Adventure again :) Sweet. Great use for the kit. This is on a vanilla 11/23+? How's the response time? My first experiences with Adventure were on an 11/750, so it didn't seem too slow. -ethan This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 07:03:19 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 00:03:19 +1200 Subject: FORTRAN Adventure (was Re: RL02 problem) Message-ID: On 4/22/06, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Sorry to drift a bit off-topic (RL02 problem), (subject line edited for topic drift) > but I have a question regarding Adventure running on the 11/750, Ethan. > I have an 11/750 and would love to run Adventure on it :-) > Did you use the PDP-11 RT-11 Adventure version , or is there a version > of Adventure specific for for the VAX-11/750 ? Back in the day (1985), I ran a native FORTRAN version of Adventure compiled on our 11/750 running VMS 3.4 (3.6?). I think we ran the same binary under 4.x and 5.x, but I can't recall if we re-linked the .OBJ files or not. It's rather trivial to take the RSX/RSTS Adventure sources and get them working under VAX FORTRAN - a 32-bit environment and wads of virtual space removes many of the restrictions imposed by a 16-bit virtual space on an -11 OS. On a PDP-11, I think all ADVENT implementations use overlays - not required on a VAX. -ethan From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Apr 22 07:06:05 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 13:06:05 +0100 Subject: VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816AD@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><006201c66567$c73df0c0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D0@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <005901c66605$220ec220$0200a8c0@p2deskto> >From: "Gooijen, Henk" >Sorry to drift a bit off-topic (RL02 problem), but I have a question >regarding Adventure running on the 11/750, Ethan. >I have an 11/750 and would love to run Adventure on it :-) >Did you use the PDP-11 RT-11 Adventure version , or is there a version >of Adventure specific for for the VAX-11/750 ? Henk, there is a VMS version of Adventure on the net: http://www.decus.org/libcatalog/description_html/vs0185.html#games (requires FORTRAN) This has an executable copy of ZORK http://www.decus.org/libcatalog/description_html/vs0185.html#games There are plenty of others - Google soon finds them! (try a search for VMS ADVENTURE, or VMS GAME) I don't know if it is possible to run the RT11 version under emulation mode on the 11/750, someone else may. Jim. From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Apr 22 07:55:09 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 08:55:09 -0400 Subject: 1350A vs 1351A References: Message-ID: <001e01c6660b$fdacee00$0100a8c0@screamer> I have both boxes attached to systems, I can try to test this. I have a few test patterns that were written for the 1350 that do not display correctly on the 1351 however (odd!). So am I sure that there is a real difference in how they react when you plot past the limits, whatever they are. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 5:55 PM Subject: Re: 1350A vs 1351A >> >> <>No, I'm not sure. It's been a long time. However that's the >> resolutions given in the manual for the 1350 and >> in the HP 1980 and 1982 catalogs. Probably they are just rounding it >> off. The manual does mention the X=1022, >> Y=1023 max values for a plot absolute command. > > I looked in my HP1350 manual, and it's inconsistant. At one point it > claims the resolution is 1022*1023, at another place it gives the range > of parameters to the plot command as 0-1022 and 0-1023. Personally, I > believe the latter, there are good hardware reasons why that's the case. > > -tony > From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sat Apr 22 08:52:07 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 15:52:07 +0200 Subject: FORTRAN Adventure (was Re: RL02 problem) References: Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D1@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Thanks Ethan. I got my 11/750 just a few weeks ago, and I still have to go out to get OpenVMS and a few layered products. The system runs already OpenVMS, and also has some Fokker (former Dutch airplane designer/builder) software installed, but I had to promise that I would wipe the three RA81 disks that came with the /750. So, after I have done that, I will first need to install OpenVMS. I am a newbie in VAX-11/750 land, so this will be a slow-progress "project" :-) I have Advent for RT-11, and I wondered if it needed the PDP-11 emulation mode, but it is clear that a native Advent is possible. thanks, - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Ethan Dicks Verzonden: za 22-04-2006 14:03 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: FORTRAN Adventure (was Re: RL02 problem) On 4/22/06, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Sorry to drift a bit off-topic (RL02 problem), (subject line edited for topic drift) > but I have a question regarding Adventure running on the 11/750, Ethan. > I have an 11/750 and would love to run Adventure on it :-) > Did you use the PDP-11 RT-11 Adventure version , or is there a version > of Adventure specific for for the VAX-11/750 ? Back in the day (1985), I ran a native FORTRAN version of Adventure compiled on our 11/750 running VMS 3.4 (3.6?). I think we ran the same binary under 4.x and 5.x, but I can't recall if we re-linked the .OBJ files or not. It's rather trivial to take the RSX/RSTS Adventure sources and get them working under VAX FORTRAN - a 32-bit environment and wads of virtual space removes many of the restrictions imposed by a 16-bit virtual space on an -11 OS. On a PDP-11, I think all ADVENT implementations use overlays - not required on a VAX. -ethan This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sat Apr 22 08:59:33 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 15:59:33 +0200 Subject: VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816AD@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><006201c66567$c73df0c0$0200a8c0@p2deskto><447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D0@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <005901c66605$220ec220$0200a8c0@p2deskto> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D2@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Cool! Thanks Jim. Ethan's and your response have exact the same hh:mm time stamp! (at least on my computer). For my 11/750 I will need a copy of some OpenVMS version first, because I promised to wipe the disks, otherwise I could only get the system without the disks. I wanted the cab with the three RA81's too, and the HSC70, although I am not sure if the HSC70 will ever be useful as the L0009 and internal cabling is not in the 11/750. And I have read that you need besides the L0009 more stuff ... need to find out what the HSC70 requires, and maybe I come to the conclusion that the HSC70 is only taking up space ... I am not planning to build a cluster (don't know anything about that stuff either), but ... never say never :-) I posted a request for Zork (PDP-11) on Amazon a year ago, but never had any response. So, your link to the VMS version is great! thanks, - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Jim Beacon Verzonden: za 22-04-2006 14:06 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem >From: "Gooijen, Henk" >Sorry to drift a bit off-topic (RL02 problem), but I have a question >regarding Adventure running on the 11/750, Ethan. >I have an 11/750 and would love to run Adventure on it :-) >Did you use the PDP-11 RT-11 Adventure version , or is there a version >of Adventure specific for for the VAX-11/750 ? Henk, there is a VMS version of Adventure on the net: http://www.decus.org/libcatalog/description_html/vs0185.html#games (requires FORTRAN) This has an executable copy of ZORK http://www.decus.org/libcatalog/description_html/vs0185.html#games There are plenty of others - Google soon finds them! (try a search for VMS ADVENTURE, or VMS GAME) I don't know if it is possible to run the RT11 version under emulation mode on the 11/750, someone else may. Jim. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 09:29:15 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 02:29:15 +1200 Subject: VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D2@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816AD@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <006201c66567$c73df0c0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D0@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <005901c66605$220ec220$0200a8c0@p2deskto> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D2@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: On 4/23/06, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Cool! Thanks Jim. > Ethan's and your response have exact the same hh:mm time stamp! > (at least on my computer). Straaaaange ;-) > For my 11/750 I will need a copy of some OpenVMS version first, because I > promised to wipe the disks Hmm... depending on which memory controller you have (likely to be either the 8MB max or 12MB max), that may affect what version to go with. We used to run 5.4 on our 11/750 w/8MB. I don't think you should go any newer unless you have 12MB (but others are free to chime in). > I posted a request for Zork (PDP-11) on Amazon a year ago, but > never had any response. So, your link to the VMS version is great! Long ago, via one of the newsgroups, someone *might* have posted a link to the RT-11 engine - back in the day, it was really just the same data file as for the contemporary v3 games, plus an engine written in MACRO-11 for RT-11. I remember seeing "Planetfall" for RT-11 on the wall of the local DEC shop, but since I couldn't afford a PDP-11 in 1983, there it stayed. :-( Quite a rare beast. If you ever find one, let us know. In the meantime, I did port one of the early public domain (open source) v3 zmachines to VMS. I _might_ have the sources handy, but I'd have to dig (it's just generic C code with some stuff to handle the status line, nothing really special). I ran it on that same 11/750 in its VMS 4.x days. -ethan From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Apr 22 10:09:56 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 16:09:56 +0100 Subject: VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816AD@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><006201c66567$c73df0c0$0200a8c0@p2deskto><447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D0@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><005901c66605$220ec220$0200a8c0@p2deskto><447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D2@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <000801c6661e$d1720380$0200a8c0@p2deskto> From: "Ethan Dicks" > > For my 11/750 I will need a copy of some OpenVMS version first, because I > > promised to wipe the disks > > Hmm... depending on which memory controller you have (likely to be > either the 8MB max or 12MB max), that may affect what version to go > with. We used to run 5.4 on our 11/750 w/8MB. I don't think you > should go any newer unless you have 12MB (but others are free to chime > in). > Somewhere on the HP website, is a page that lists which machines were supported by which versions of VMS. I have 7.3 on my VAXstation 3100, and 6.2 for the uVAX II (also running an emulated uVAX II in simh). I think the earlier versions are difficult to find, but most after VMS 4 are available from one place or another (the hobbyist license allows you to run any versions you can find on any machines you can find, so long as it's not for commercial gain). Jim. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sat Apr 22 10:13:06 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 17:13:06 +0200 Subject: VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816AD@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><006201c66567$c73df0c0$0200a8c0@p2deskto><447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D0@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><005901c66605$220ec220$0200a8c0@p2deskto><447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D2@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > > For my 11/750 I will need a copy of some OpenVMS version first, because > > I promised to wipe the disks > > Hmm... depending on which memory controller you have (likely to be > either the 8MB max or 12MB max), that may affect what version to go > with. We used to run 5.4 on our 11/750 w/8MB. I don't think you > should go any newer unless you have 12MB (but others are free to chime > in). Thanks for the extra info, Ethan. I need to do some reading up on the VAX-11/7x0, but AFAIK, my machine has seven 1 Mb boards installed. So, I guess I will post a message for an older OpenVMS version when I get time to check out the VAX. I will also have to figure a way to get the OS installed, as I only have the VAX with three RA81's connected to it. I have a microVAX 3900 which has a Kennedy 9610, but the interface is QBUS :-( > > I posted a request for Zork (PDP-11) on Amazon a year ago, but > > never had any response. So, your link to the VMS version is great! > > Long ago, via one of the newsgroups, someone *might* have posted a > link to the RT-11 engine - back in the day, it was really just the > same data file as for the contemporary v3 games, plus an engine > written in MACRO-11 for RT-11. I remember seeing "Planetfall" for > RT-11 on the wall of the local DEC shop, but since I couldn't afford a > PDP-11 in 1983, there it stayed. :-( I have Planetfall and Leather goddess of Phobos (IIRC), but they are for the ATARI. I once tried Zemu in RT-11 in SIMH :-) but I missed the correct library to get the OBJs linked. Never finished it. > Quite a rare beast. If you ever find one, let us know. So, list members ... who has a copy of Zork for RT-11, and is willing to make it available? :-) > In the meantime, I did port one of the early public domain (open source) > v3 zmachines to VMS. I _might_ have the sources handy, but I'd have to > dig (it's just generic C code with some stuff to handle the status > line, nothing really special). I ran it on that same 11/750 in its > VMS 4.x days. > > -ethan With a Z machine you can run Planetfall, etc. Just need to copy the data (that's what I have heard/understand) ... With these games we have a good reason to switch the old machines ON more often than just once a year :-) - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Apr 22 10:49:15 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:49:15 -0500 Subject: Back up 9 Track to CD References: <01C66229.912A0870@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <005901c66624$4f7e9770$6500a8c0@BILLING> Ummm >>Can I just DD the tapes to a file and stick the file on CD/HD then >>recreate the tape from the CD when needed? Doesn't Eric Smith's "TapeUtils" do this all rather nicely? Jay From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 22 11:54:15 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 09:54:15 -0700 Subject: VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816AD@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><006 201c66567$c73df0c0$0200a8c0@p2deskto><447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D0@OVL-EXBE 01.ocevenlo.oce.net><005901c66605$220ec220$0200a8c0@p2deskto><447524F844B5 9D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D2@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: At 5:13 PM +0200 4/22/06, Gooijen, Henk wrote: >I have Planetfall and Leather goddess of Phobos (IIRC), but they are >for the ATARI. I once tried Zemu in RT-11 in SIMH :-) but I missed >the correct library to get the OBJs linked. Never finished it. I'm guessing you were missing the SYSTEM.MLB library? Megan did the RT-11 port against RT-11 5.7, and there is a good chance you won't be able to run it on any other version, with the possible exception of 5.6. I did build an early version of ZEMU on 5.6, but had to do the following: Added to ZRT.MAC GETAVO:: RETURN GETCOL:: RETURN GETSOF:: RETURN My notes seem to indicate these are some routines that Johnny had added to the version of the source that I had, but hadn't told Megan about at the point that I grabbed the source. I was unable to build on 5.6 against a later version. I couldn't get this to build against 5.4, and at the time didn't have 5.5. I don't know if I ever found time to try building the V1 or V1.5 source. I should still have the old version that works on my PDP-11. > > Quite a rare beast. If you ever find one, let us know. > >So, list members ... who has a copy of Zork for RT-11, and is willing >to make it available? :-) Good luck finding a copy of the official release. I know I don't have a copy, and I don't know anyone who does. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Apr 22 11:54:37 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 12:54:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Boast of the day Message-ID: While rummaging around a secret scrapyard, Dan Cohoe and I dug up the remains of an Intel 432/600 micromainframe, based on the ill fated 432 processor. All that was left in the pile was the plastic case parts and front panel, power supply and keyboard. That is all... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 22 13:24:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 11:24:45 -0700 Subject: FORTRAN Adventure (was Re: RL02 problem) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604221124450898.8B1BC1C5@10.0.0.252> On 4/23/2006 at 12:03 AM Ethan Dicks wrote: >It's rather trivial to take the RSX/RSTS Adventure sources and get >them working under VAX FORTRAN - a 32-bit environment and wads of >virtual space removes many of the restrictions imposed by a 16-bit >virtual space on an -11 OS. On a PDP-11, I think all ADVENT >implementations use overlays - not required on a VAX. Geez, where did you guys get a VAX FORTRAN version? Back around 1974(? IIRC), a friend who was a field engineer with DEC gave me a (7 track) tape from a DECsystem 10 with the FORTRAN source. It took me about a week of bootlegging effort to get the tape read and ported over to a CDC Cyber 174. Judging from the huge collective waste of company time and resources spent on the game, it was a wonder I didn't get fired. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 22 13:27:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 11:27:07 -0700 Subject: FORTRAN Adventure (Correction) References: <200604221124450898.8B1BC1C5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200604221127070814.8B1DEC1F@10.0.0.252> Er, make that a CYBER 74, not 174. Cheers, Chuck From rickb at bensene.com Sat Apr 22 15:09:46 2006 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 13:09:46 -0700 Subject: FORTRAN Adventure (was Re: RL02 problem) Message-ID: My first experience with Adventure was on the CDC Cyber 73 at Tektronix in 1977-'78. Wouldn't run on the (coolest ever) console, but only on remote terminals, typically old Tek 4010's DVST terminals (and some 4002A's, which were probably one of the coolest terminals made, IMHO) which were connected through a MODCOMP II front-end machine for serving lots of terminals via a massive panel of RS-232 connections. Operating system was KRONOS. I'm wondering if the port that we had came from you? I think, somewhere, I have a source listing of it on greenline 132 column paper, but it might take a while to find it. Other than the cool graphics games that could be played on the console (chess, spacewars, and a few others that I can't remember off hand). Adventure was the best there was -- and it probably contributed to the biggest waste of "expensive" computer time in its day (back in the days when time on the machine was accounted for, and charged-back to each cost-center who used it). Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 11:25 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: FORTRAN Adventure (was Re: RL02 problem) > > On 4/23/2006 at 12:03 AM Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >It's rather trivial to take the RSX/RSTS Adventure sources > and get them > >working under VAX FORTRAN - a 32-bit environment and wads of virtual > >space removes many of the restrictions imposed by a 16-bit virtual > >space on an -11 OS. On a PDP-11, I think all ADVENT implementations > >use overlays - not required on a VAX. > > Geez, where did you guys get a VAX FORTRAN version? Back > around 1974(? > IIRC), a friend who was a field engineer with DEC gave me a > (7 track) tape from a DECsystem 10 with the FORTRAN source. > It took me about a week of bootlegging effort to get the tape > read and ported over to a CDC Cyber 174. > > Judging from the huge collective waste of company time and > resources spent on the game, it was a wonder I didn't get fired. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 22 15:24:59 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 13:24:59 -0700 Subject: FORTRAN Adventure (was Re: RL02 problem) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604221324590713.8B89D474@10.0.0.252> On 4/22/2006 at 1:09 PM Rick Bensene wrote: >I'm wondering if the port that we had came from you? I think, somewhere, >I have a source listing of it on greenline 132 column paper, but it >might take a while to find it. Could well be--after I did the port, I made a tape of the source, database and compiled object and passed it around--I wasn't dumb enough to leave my name in it. It propogated like the plague. Most likely, the source would be in UPDATE format. I may have even done a STAR 100 port--too long ago to remember. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 22 16:58:18 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:58:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <200604211749490312.8755EEDA@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 21, 6 05:49:49 pm Message-ID: > > >This would approximate early television. oops.. now I've mentioned > >something from the 1920's.. but no one on this list probably has such a > >mechanical monstrosity with (some kind of) a 'video' input. modern TV set > >with built in tuner does not qualify -must be monitor not TV. > > Folks are still building those beasts, Nipkov disks and all: Mine is, alas, a modern one, I built it when I was at school (around 1980), so it's nowhere near the oldest display unit I own... A couple of years back I found a 'Newnes Television Handbook' in a secondhand bookshop. I grabbed it, of course. It dates from 1937 and covers mechanically-scanned TV _only_ (no CRTs at all). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 22 17:02:55 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 23:02:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1350A vs 1351A In-Reply-To: <001e01c6660b$fdacee00$0100a8c0@screamer> from "Bob Shannon" at Apr 22, 6 08:55:09 am Message-ID: > > I have both boxes attached to systems, I can try to test this. I've looked at the HP1351 manual on hpmuseum.net, alas I didn't have my 1350 manual with me at the time... The mechanical layont is identical, but as far as I can see the only PCB that's the same is the backplane. But the general blocks of electronics are much the same in the 2 devices. The RAMs, are of course differnt (the 1351 seems to use normal 4116-like 16K bit DRAMs, the 1350 uses those TMS4096-like 22pin 4K bit DRAMs). > I have a few test patterns that were written for the 1350 that do not > display correctly on the 1351 however (odd!). So am I sure that > there is a real difference in how they react when you plot past > the limits, whatever they are. It's quite likely there's extra logic in the 1351 to prevent plotting to a corodinate that would be interpretted as a text character. -tony From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Apr 22 17:25:46 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 23:25:46 +0100 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? References: Message-ID: <003801c6665b$b3647480$0200a8c0@p2deskto> I have a high speed scanner from a 405 line mechanical scan TV, from around 1938: www.g1jbg.co.uk/tv1.htm Not computer related, but interesting in its own right. Jim. From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Apr 22 17:45:14 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 00:45:14 +0200 Subject: VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem In-Reply-To: <200604221706.k3MH6VgQ098831@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604221706.k3MH6VgQ098831@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <444AB1FA.1040107@update.uu.se> "Gooijen, Henk" wrote: > Cool! Thanks Jim. > Ethan's and your response have exact the same hh:mm time stamp! > (at least on my computer). > For my 11/750 I will need a copy of some OpenVMS version first, because I > promised to wipe the disks, otherwise I could only get the system without > the disks. I wanted the cab with the three RA81's too, and the HSC70, > although I am not sure if the HSC70 will ever be useful as the L0009 and > internal cabling is not in the 11/750. > And I have read that you need besides the L0009 more stuff ... need to find > out what the HSC70 requires, and maybe I come to the conclusion that the > HSC70 is only taking up space ... I am not planning to build a cluster > (don't know anything about that stuff either), but ... never say never > :-) The HSC will require a CI750, which is a whole cabinet of it's own. If you don't have that one, you're out of luck. > I posted a request for Zork (PDP-11) on Amazon a year ago, but > never had any response. So, your link to the VMS version is great! Hmm. I saw that ZEMU was mentioned later in this discussion as well, but let me start by asking if you're talking about the Infocom commercial release, or the FORTRAN port called DUNGEON is what you're thinking of? Anyway, ZEMU exists, and works just fine. However, Megan have not done anything in a long while, so I'm not sure if it works as is on RT-11 or not. If someone who have RT-11 is willing to look at it, I'd be grateful. The RSX version is just fine, though. Anyone who wants to try, just log into MIM. -------------- Junk:/home/bqt> telnet mim.update.uu.se Trying 130.238.19.211... Connected to mim.update.uu.se. Escape character is '^]'. This is MIM.Update.UU.SE > hel guest/guest RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6 BL87mP [1,54] System MIM 23-APR-06 00:38 Logged on Terminal TT4: as GST47 Good Morning ***************************************************************** * * * Welcome to RSX-11M-PLUS * * * * Version 4.6 Base level 87 * * * * This is Mim.Update.UU.SE * * (Running on E11) * ***************************************************************** If you have any problems, or want to ask questions, don't be afraid to write me a mail. MIM is a E11 replacement for Magica, which can't be run 24/7 right now because of costs. Magica is still around, and occasionally online. The E11 license for MIM was kindly donated by John Wilson of DBIT. (Check out www.dbit.com for more information). *** Try HELP FUN for more fun *** *** Try HELP LOCAL for information about compilers and stuff on MIM *** *** A small FAQ have been written. Do "MORE FAQ" *** *** Note that help on compiling and linking are available at HELP LOCAL *** Johnny (bqt at update.uu.se) Last interactive login on Friday, April 21, 2006 21:19:22 (TT4:) Last batch login on Saturday, August 9, 1997 17:36:13 $ @LB:[1,2]SYSLOGIN.CMD What is your name? Johnny RSX-11M-PLUS BL87mP (MIM ) 1920K PDP-11/74 at 00:38:50.8, 23-APR-06 Users=3 Idle=100% Task=.IDLE. Up: 7 days, 22:53. Ticks=3 Errseq=0. user task uic pri where state size(K) ioc par JOHNNY AT.T4 * [ Self ] 64 TT4 Stopped 4/23 GEN J Billquist MCET44 [ Oper ] 50 _TT44 Stopped 2/8 GEN J Billquist MCET5 [ Oper ] 50 _TT5 Stopped 2/8 GEN JOHNNY WHOT4 * [ Self ] 50 TT4 Running 1/4 GEN Welcome to Magica. This is a guest account. Please behave. If you'd like an account of you own, write an email to Johnny Billquist saying so. Please also include the following information about you: 1) Your full name. 2) A working email address to you. (Not an anonymous one) 3) A line or two about who you are. 4) A password for your account. If you have any other requests or wishes, just include them too, and we'll see what can be fixed. /Johnny $ zem /li -- System games -- Game Release Serial Inform Z-Machine ADVENT 5 961209 6.05 5 AMFV 77 850814 4 BALLYHOO 97 851218 3 BEYONDZOR 57 871221 5 BOMBER 3 971123 6.13 5 BORDERZON 9 871008 5 BUREAUCRA 116 870602 4 CUTTHROAT 23 840809 3 DEADLINE 27 831005 3 DOGSLIFE 1 981015 6.15 5 DUNGEON 12 990623 6.14 5 ENCHANTER 29 860820 3 HITCHHIKE 31 871119 5 HOLLYWOOD 37 861215 3 INFIDEL 22 830916 3 LEATHER 59 860730 3 LURKING 203 870506 3 MOONMIST 9 861022 3 NORDANDBE 19 870722 4 PLANETFAL 37 851003 3 PLUNDERER 26 870730 3 SAMEGAME 1 980731 6.15 5 SEASTALKE 16 850603 3 SHERLOCK 21 871214 5 SORCERER 15 851108 3 SPACEZ 1 980710 6.15 5 SPELLBREA 87 860904 3 STARCROSS 17 821021 3 STATIONFA 107 870430 3 SUSPECT 14 841005 3 SUSPENDED 8 840521 3 TRINITY 12 860926 4 WISHBRING 69 850920 3 WITNESS 22 840924 3 ZOKOBAN 1 990810 6.21 5 ZORK1 88 840726 3 ZORK2 48 840904 3 ZORK3 17 840727 3 ZTUU 16 970828 6.13 5 $ ------------------------ Oh, and the FORTRAN version is also around: ------------------------ $ dun Welcome to Dungeon. This version created 16-Jan-03. This is an open field west of a white house with a boarded front door. There is a small mailbox here. A rubber mat saying "Welcome to Dungeon!" lies by the door. >history Revision history: 16-Jan-03 Backport to RSX-11M-PLUS (V3.2C). 20-Oct-94 Bug fixes (V3.2B). 01-Oct-94 Bug fixes (V3.2A). 01-Feb-94 Portable VMS/UNIX version (V3.1A). 01-Jan-90 Portable version (V3.0A). 18-Oct-80 Revised DECUS version (V2.6A). 18-Jul-80 Transportable data base file (V2.5A). 28-Feb-80 Compressed text file (V2.4A). 15-Nov-79 Bug fixes (V2.3A). 18-Jan-79 Revised DECUS version (V2.2A). 10-Oct-78 Puzzle Room (V2.1A). 10-Sep-78 Endgame (V2.0A). 10-Aug-78 DECUS version (V1.1B). 14-Jun-78 Public version with parser (V1.1A). 04-Mar-78 Debugging version (V1.0A). >quit Your score would be 0 [total of 616 points], in 2 moves. This gives you the rank of Beginner. Do you wish to leave the game? y Ok. $ ------------------- Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Apr 22 20:54:01 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 20:54:01 Subject: Anyone got a spare HPIL keyboard? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060422205401.132f2d1e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Richard, there's no such thing as a HPIL keyboard! There are HP-HIL keyboards. I can probably dig up one of those. BTW I have the E&S keyboard for you. I forgot it and left it in a friend's truch and had a devil of a time getting it back!! Joe At 06:39 PM 4/20/06 -0600, you wrote: >I purchased an HP2397A color terminal. It needs a monitor and >keyboard. The monitor is straightforward and can be taken care of >with a cable. (Although it would be nice to find the appropriate HP >period monitor.) The keyboard is a different story. I need an HPIL >keyboard. Its my understanding that any HPIL keyboard would work, but >that I'd need one that understands HPIL and couldn't rig up a stock >PS2 style keyboard. > >I'm not asking for charity, I'll pay a reasonable price :-). >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Apr 22 23:19:20 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 23:19:20 -0500 Subject: Available: Various source/documentation microfische Message-ID: <010201c6668d$189270b0$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> If anyone is interested, please politely contact original poster, not me. Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Howes" To: Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 6:10 AM Subject: Various source/documentation microfische > I've built up a list of assorted stuff that you may be interested in. > > I don't have a microfische reader, and get odd looks at my local library > when I nip in there to use theirs (and they are going over to > computerised indexes, so the fische readers are going soon (note to > self: beg/borrow/rehome/steal one!). > > I made a list a few years ago. I've stuffed it one the web. URL below. > > The lines in this text file are mainly in this format: > > Group name (various different manuals for a particular device share the > same title) > > Manual/source description, possibly with serial numbers or other > references, most of which I'm not sure of the meaning of. > > Date (somewhere between OCT76 and OCT81) > > Number of fisches in this set > > DEC Part number > > --- > For instance: > PDP11 MOS/CORE G124K EXER CZKMAF0 SEP79 1 AH-8851F-MC > > or > > VAX/VMS 4.4 VAX/VMS V2.4 SOURCE LISTINGS MCRF ????? 536 > AH-HP48A-SE > > (hmm. seems I made a typo on that one). I remember VMS 4.4, just > typing & at the command line would log you out with reserved > operand error and a stack dump. I think the VMS4.4 sources may be > elsewhere at the moment, it's such a long time since I looked at them. > > Anyway, the file is archived here: > > http://www.notout.demon.co.uk/fische.txt > > > I think, on the whole, I'd rather keep hold of these, but will happily > lend them to people who make reasonable requests (and supply stamped > addressed envelopes for instance). However, if a good cause would like > to take them and catalogue them properly and use them for the benefit of > DEC history as a whole, then I'll certainly consider it. > > I'm not sure of the copyright issues regarding the VMS Source listings. > I did try asking a while ago, but got no reply. > > I'm based in Portsmouth, UK. > > Regards, > Jim > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 22 23:41:08 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:41:08 -0600 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <003801c6665b$b3647480$0200a8c0@p2deskto> References: <003801c6665b$b3647480$0200a8c0@p2deskto> Message-ID: <444B0564.3080805@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Beacon wrote: > I have a high speed scanner from a 405 line mechanical scan TV, from around > 1938: > > www.g1jbg.co.uk/tv1.htm > > Not computer related, but interesting in its own right. But a little off with the discription of the way the light was modulated. This was a great invention but limited only to B&W scanning. Similar to a mercury delay line for digital data, this passed a entire scan line so that you got a full intensity scan line to be sent to rotating mirrors then to the projection screen.Alas WWII killed the company, and everybody by then with CRT's improved do to WWII has continued using them to this day. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Apr 23 00:43:25 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 00:43:25 -0500 Subject: IDO 5.3 on IRIX 4.0.5 Message-ID: <0d02143ce5eb47d08408a6410fdc103a@valleyimplants.com> Just fired up DouglasIRIS (4D/25) on the 4.0.5 disk, and it looks like the IRIX4 "cross compilation environment" (even tho' its not a "cross compiler", I'm not sure what else to call it.) from IDO-5.3 will run under IRIX 4.0.5. This is just basic tests (untar it, run "cc" and some other stuff and see if it dies or not), but it looks promising. All I need to do is sort out where everything goes under IRIX 4, and test it on some real source. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 23 01:29:22 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 23:29:22 -0700 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <444B0564.3080805@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <003801c6665b$b3647480$0200a8c0@p2deskto> <444B0564.3080805@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200604222329220853.8DB3246E@10.0.0.252> On 4/22/2006 at 10:41 PM woodelf wrote: >> Not computer related, but interesting in its own right. >But a little off with the discription of the way the light was >modulated. This was a great invention but limited only to B&W >scanning. Do you mean that you couldn't do field-sequential color using this device? It seems that all one would need would be color wheels at either end of the process... Cheers, Chuck (Who remembers the very-short lived CBS system. I remember passing up a wooden crate full of color wheels many years ago for practically nothing. If you could stand the flicker, the CBS system gave very good color compared to NTSC). From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 23 01:31:21 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 23:31:21 -0700 Subject: BIOS listing for a Cifer 2684 In-Reply-To: <200604211751500412.8757C7E0@10.0.0.252> References: <200604211751500412.8757C7E0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200604222331210027.8DB4F208@10.0.0.252> On 4/21/2006 at 5:51 PM Chuck Guzis wrote: >Does anyone have the CBIOS in source form for a Cifer 2684? I'm looking >into a project and need some info that could be answered easily by the >CBIOS. Belay that. I bit the bullet and disassembled the CBIOS and got what I needed. If anyone's in need of a 2684 system diskette, I've got one. Cheers, Chuck From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sun Apr 23 04:14:29 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 10:14:29 +0100 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? References: <003801c6665b$b3647480$0200a8c0@p2deskto> <444B0564.3080805@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <003701c666b6$53bcc900$0200a8c0@p2deskto> From: "woodelf" > Jim Beacon wrote: > > I have a high speed scanner from a 405 line mechanical scan TV, from around > > 1938: > > > > www.g1jbg.co.uk/tv1.htm > > > > Not computer related, but interesting in its own right. > But a little off with the discription of the way the light was > modulated. This was a great invention but limited only to B&W > scanning. Similar to a mercury delay line for digital data, > this passed a entire scan line so that you got a full intensity > scan line to be sent to rotating mirrors then to the projection > screen. Yes, I need to update that page - when I wrote it I didn't fully understand the Jefferies cell. I have recently acquired a number of early 30's "Television and Shortwave Review" magazines (1934 to 1939), which have a lot of articles about the Scophony system, which I need to scan and add to the page. >Alas WWII killed the company, and everybody by then > with CRT's improved do to WWII has continued using them to this day. > The rapid need for RADAR progress pushed CRT technology on at a fantastic rate, such that the need for mechanical scan and high intensity light source was replaced by the daylight-view CRT by the end of the war, and projection CRTs were available (Skiatron?), reliable projection TV sets made there appearance in the UK shortly after WW2 (using a 2.5" tube with a 25KV EHT, and a very clever optical unit). Jim. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 23 07:59:50 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 00:59:50 +1200 Subject: FORTRAN Adventure (was Re: RL02 problem) In-Reply-To: <200604221124450898.8B1BC1C5@10.0.0.252> References: <200604221124450898.8B1BC1C5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 4/23/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/23/2006 at 12:03 AM Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >It's rather trivial to take the RSX/RSTS Adventure sources and get > >them working under VAX FORTRAN... > > Geez, where did you guys get a VAX FORTRAN version? Back around 1974(? > IIRC)... No idea - it was already running on the system when I got there in 1984. > Judging from the huge collective waste of company time and resources spent > on the game, it was a wonder I didn't get fired. Heh... that was true for many computer games back in those days. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 23 08:34:10 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 01:34:10 +1200 Subject: VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816AD@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <006201c66567$c73df0c0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D0@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <005901c66605$220ec220$0200a8c0@p2deskto> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D2@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D3@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: On 4/23/06, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > Hmm... depending on which memory controller you have (likely to be > > either the 8MB max or 12MB max)... > > Thanks for the extra info, Ethan. > I need to do some reading up on the VAX-11/7x0, but AFAIK, my machine > has seven 1 Mb boards installed. I don't recall seeing an 11/750 with a newer controller that didn't also have one 4MB board (there are 8 Unibus-shaped slots for "CMI" memory in an 11/750), so to hazard a guess, you have the most common model - 8MB max physical memory. It's probably worth it to look for another memory board. The 11/730 and 11/750 share the same 1MB board - a mass of 4164s, or, in the case of some 3rd party memory, a couple of rows of 41256s. > I will also have to figure a way to get the OS installed, as I only have the > VAX with three RA81's connected to it. I have a microVAX 3900 which > has a Kennedy 9610, but the interface is QBUS :-( In my experience, we always used a SA Backup TU58 set (number of tapes depends on the version) then installed from 9-track. If you could put an RA81 on a Qbus machine (need a KDA50, IIRC), then you could restore the save set onto the RA81 and then boot it on the 11/750. > > > I posted a request for Zork (PDP-11) on Amazon a year ago, but > > > never had any response. So, your link to the VMS version is great! > > > > I remember seeing "Planetfall" for RT-11 on the wall of the local DEC > > shop, but since I couldn't afford a PDP-11 in 1983, there it stayed. :-( > > I have Planetfall and Leather goddess of Phobos (IIRC), but they are > for the ATARI. The datafiles are all portable from any one platform to any other platform. The only thing that gets tricky is that with a lot of the 8-bit micros, Infocom had to chop up the the data file and put it on a diskette as raw blocks (C-64 and Apple II, for instance), with a platform-unique mapping. > I once tried Zemu in RT-11 in SIMH :-) but I missed > the correct library to get the OBJs linked. Never finished it. Fun. > With a Z machine you can run Planetfall, etc. Just need to copy the data > (that's what I have heard/understand) ... Exactly so. With "modern" machines (more than 16-bit address space - UNIX, VMS, classic Mac, PalmPilot...), it's easier to write a Zmachine that buffers the entire game file in memory rather than do a read-only demand-paged scheme as the 8-bitters did (and still do - I helped Mike Riley, author of ElfOS write a Zmachine for the 1802 last year - plays v3 games great on a 32KB Elf). > With these games we have a good reason to switch the old machines ON more > often than just once a year :-) Heh... well... a good reason, but you can play with a pair of AA batteries on a PalmPilot - much less energy than an entire 11/750 w/3?!? RA81s... that's a lots of kWHs. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 23 08:42:06 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 07:42:06 -0600 Subject: HP 2397A color terminal manuals? Message-ID: BitSavers doesn't have it and neither does the HP museum. Anyone got a manual set for the HP 2397A color terminal? Documentation Supplied: HP 2397A User's Manual (02397-90001) HP 2397A Reference Manual (02397-90002) Documentation Available: HP 2397A Service Manual (02393-90003) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 23 08:42:25 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 01:42:25 +1200 Subject: ZDungeon/Zemu (was Re: VAX ADVENTURE) Message-ID: On 4/23/06, Johnny Billquist wrote: > $ zem /li > -- System games -- > Game Release Serial Inform Z-Machine > ADVENT 5 961209 6.05 5 . . . > DUNGEON 12 990623 6.14 5 ZDungeon is up to Release 13/Serial Number 040826 now. I would pitch version 12 - it has a serious bug with answering the questions in the endgame. There will be another release at some point to fix a bug that can prevent you from getting credit for all the treasures you pick up if the random numbers fall the wrong way. http://www.penguincentral.com/retrocomputing/zdungeon/ From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 23 09:08:10 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 08:08:10 -0600 Subject: Tektronix PEP301 mystery resolved Message-ID: OK, still sifting through this big pile o' stuff from DoveBid :-) Some of you may recall that the lot included a PEP301 16 MHz System Controller and I didn't know what it was. Well, its an IEEE-488 system controller built as an interface card and software combination for a 386 PC clone. Its all branded with Tektronix logos though: main unit, monitor and keyboard. Although there were no seals, it appears new in box with a full set of manuals and software diskettes. The manuals are a stock set of manuals for PC clones of the era (GW-BASIC, MS-DOS 3.3, owner's manual for the PC) and a manual for the Tektronix HPIB software utilities. There is this little dinky pamphlet sort of manual for the keyboard. People seem to be selling that online for some reason as if you need help in figuring out a standard 101-key IBM PC keyboard? I'll be scanning the Tektronix manual and uploading at some point and try to make some disk images of the non-standard software bits. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Apr 23 10:52:33 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 08:52:33 -0700 Subject: 9914 Manuals (soon) available Message-ID: <200604230852330036.02069795@192.168.42.129> Fellow techies, Just as soon as I get my FTP archive back up (was taken down yesterday for upgrade, suffered a power supply failure, long story, grumblegrumble), at least two of the manuals (in .PDF) for the M9914 drive will be freely available. Site and path will be: ftp.bluefeathertech.com /pub/computing/hardware/storage/M4-Data/9914 Anonymous access works fine. However, due to bandwidth limits, only 5 such logins can be accomodated at any one time. Then again, my site is generally low-activity so 5-at-a-time isn't usually a problem. Now, with that said... If anyone knows how to reconfigure a dual-supply Compaq Proliant 6500 to operate off a single supply, I can get the thing back up that much sooner. Failing that, It'll need to wait for Monday evening after I can get a replacement for the one that fried. Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 23 13:47:05 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:47:05 -0600 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? Message-ID: I'm looking to acquire a terminal server so I can feed all the beasts simultaneously :-). Before a couple days ago, I didn't know anything about terminals servers beyond the fact that they existed, so consider me a n00b. I see that DEC has had a line of terminal servers. They look like they would do the job (my needs are more along the lines of connectivity rather than fancy features like 3270 support). Reading around on the net indicates that Xylogics had a good line of terminal servers, but that the similarly named Xyplex had buggy product. I'm not fixated on the DEC brand, but it looks like they made lots of product over the years making them readily available and reasonably priced. I'm looking for at least 16 ports, preferably 32 as I've already got more than 16 terminals :-). Whether those 32 ports come in one box or two boxes (or even 4 boxes) is not so much a concern to me as is the total cost of acquisition. Ultimately this could feed into a public interactive museum space exhibit on timesharing. At the moment I could connect the following: - DEC LA-120 VT-100 VT-278 - Heath/Zenith Z-19 - Hewlett-Packard HP1351A HP2397A HP2621A HP2648A (2) - Honeywell VIP 7809 - Lear Siegler ADM-3A ADM-5 (2) - Megatek Whizzard 1645 - Tektronix 4010 4014 4105 (4) 9200T (6) 9201T (8) - Televideo 925 - Teletype Model 43 - Texas Instruments Silent 700 (2) - Westinghouse W1643 Total: 39 Now realistically, I don't think it would be fruitfull to connect all 39 terminals in my collection as i) I plan on liquidating some of the Tektronxi 9200T/9201Ts, one of the Silent 700s only has a modem interface on the exterior and the Westinghouse doesn't have a keyboard and has some sort of weird party line interface. However, even if you factor all of those out of the picture a 32-port server still only leaves me a few ports open. I'd probably need to get up to 64 line capacity at some point. Suggestions? Currently I've been looking at the DECserver stuff on ebay; they seem relatively plentiful and it seems that with patience a good price could be had. There's a bundle of them on govliq right now, but the operating condition is unknown. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Apr 23 15:01:58 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:01:58 -0500 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060423190306.FDCH8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > I'm looking to acquire a terminal server so I can feed all the beasts > simultaneously :-). Richard, I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for ... but I do have a spare Newbridge 1032 data PBX. It goes up to 56 ports, and I have scads of cards for it, so I can give you the full 56. the 1032 is an async data PBX - it supports speeds from 50-19200 bps, and runs each interface independantly with buffering and flow-control to accomodate mismatched speeds (ie: your computers and terminals don't all have to run the same speed). Tons of features (I once worked out that there was 2x10**24 different ways to configure a port). Basically, you connect to the unit, then enter the name of the port or hunt-group you want to connect to. Once connected, it is as if you are directly connected. You can "escape" back to a local command prompt and do things like put the connection on hold, park it and pick it up from somewhere else etc. It does full connect/disconnect signalling via the RS-232 control lines as well. I know a lot about it because I designed it... So I can probably help with any problems you might encounter :-) I've also got some smaller 1008, 1080 and 1082 units. I can send a .TXT manual if you want more info. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Apr 23 10:32:12 2006 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:32:12 +0000 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <200604222329220853.8DB3246E@10.0.0.252> References: <444B0564.3080805@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20060423193115.SXGY20622.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > Do you mean that you couldn't do field-sequential color using this device? > It seems that all one would need would be color wheels at either end of the > process... > > Cheers, > Chuck > (Who remembers the very-short lived CBS system. I remember passing up a > wooden crate full of color wheels many years ago for practically nothing. > If you could stand the flicker, the CBS system gave very good color > compared to NTSC). Chuck, The color wheel circle come around again, it is currently used in one LCD system and DLP system with 6 segment color wheel running at 9,000 to 10,000rpm between 1.5" to 2" dia. Cheers, Wizard From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 23 15:55:38 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 21:55:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <200604222329220853.8DB3246E@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 22, 6 11:29:22 pm Message-ID: > If you could stand the flicker, the CBS system gave very good color > compared to NTSC). I think one of the main problems with the sequential colour system was that it was incompatible -- in both directions -- with existing monochrome TV. One of the requirements (IIRC) for a colour TV system was that colour sets should show monochrome programmes correctly and that monochrome TV sets should show colour programmes as a grey-scale. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 23 16:05:56 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 22:05:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: <003701c666b6$53bcc900$0200a8c0@p2deskto> from "Jim Beacon" at Apr 23, 6 10:14:29 am Message-ID: > was replaced by the daylight-view CRT by the end of the war, and projection > CRTs were available (Skiatron?), reliable projection TV sets made there > appearance in the UK shortly after WW2 (using a 2.5" tube with a 25KV EHT, > and a very clever optical unit). >From what I've read, that optical unit was basically a schmidt telescope in reverse, with a 45-degree mirror so it could be bent to fit in the cabinet.... I've also hrarf plenty of bad things about them from engineers of the day who said they were a right pain to set up properly, and that although there were protections circuits, it was not at all uncommong for a line to be burnt in the CRT phosphor if one of the deflection generators failed. Somewhere I've got some service information on the White-Ibbotson (?spel) set. Setting up that optical unit seems to be somewhat 'interesting' to say the least... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 23 18:37:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 16:37:40 -0700 Subject: earliest graphics display system in your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604231637400500.91609052@10.0.0.252> On 4/23/2006 at 9:55 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >I think one of the main problems with the sequential colour system was >that it was incompatible -- in both directions -- with existing >monochrome TV. One of the requirements (IIRC) for a colour TV system was >that colour sets should show monochrome programmes correctly and that >monochrome TV sets should show colour programmes as a grey-scale. A long time ago, when I was a mere teenager stripping junked TV chassis for parts, I recall canibalizing one with an octal connector on the back of the chassis labeled "CBS Color Unit" or some such. I never saw the cabinet the chassis came from, but it stuck in my memory. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 23 19:25:48 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 17:25:48 -0700 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:47 PM -0600 4/23/06, Richard wrote: >- Honeywell > VIP 7809 I think you might find that this speaks some weird protocol, and that it probably expects to be connected to a Honeywell IOP (I/O Processor). I don't remember the specifics, and don't have my manuals handy (not even sure I have any that cover terminals, as they're mostly for GCOS-8). Do you happen to know what type computer it expected to talk to, and do you happen to have a picture of it online anywhere? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 23 21:29:48 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 21:29:48 -0500 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? References: Message-ID: <006501c66746$f5738c80$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Richard wrote.... > I'm looking to acquire a terminal server so I can feed all the beasts > simultaneously :-). > > Before a couple days ago, I didn't know anything about terminals servers > beyond the fact that they existed, so consider me a n00b. Richard; Different terminals excel at doing different things better than others. Can you clarify exactly what you want to accomplish? Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 23 21:31:33 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 21:31:33 -0500 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? References: <006501c66746$f5738c80$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <006a01c66747$3438e280$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I wrote.... > Different terminals excel ....... And of course I meant to say "Different Terminal Servers excel ......." Jay From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Apr 23 21:47:29 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 22:47:29 -0400 Subject: 1350A vs 1351A References: Message-ID: <001d01c66749$6ed7fc80$0100a8c0@screamer> This is a little strange! A HP1350 will plot vectors from 0 to 1022. A HP1351 will not. It will plot vectors from 0 to 1020. I need to retest this up to 1021 to see exactly where the limit is. The program I'm using for this testing draws a box around the limits of the display, and then two diagonal lines from corner to corner. The result is a large box with an X through it. When the 1351 'fails' to plot the box, only the left hand Y axis vector is drawn. No letters appear. When a 1350 tries to draw off the edge of the screen one of two things happen. Either a vector is drawn that wraps around, or a letter or symbol is drawn in place of the out of bounds vector. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 6:02 PM Subject: Re: 1350A vs 1351A >> >> I have both boxes attached to systems, I can try to test this. > > I've looked at the HP1351 manual on hpmuseum.net, alas I didn't have my > 1350 manual with me at the time... > > The mechanical layont is identical, but as far as I can see the only PCB > that's the same is the backplane. But the general blocks of electronics > are much the same in the 2 devices. The RAMs, are of course differnt (the > 1351 seems to use normal 4116-like 16K bit DRAMs, the 1350 uses those > TMS4096-like 22pin 4K bit DRAMs). > >> I have a few test patterns that were written for the 1350 that do not >> display correctly on the 1351 however (odd!). So am I sure that >> there is a real difference in how they react when you plot past >> the limits, whatever they are. > > It's quite likely there's extra logic in the 1351 to prevent plotting to > a corodinate that would be interpretted as a text character. > > -tony > From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Apr 24 01:27:19 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 08:27:19 +0200 Subject: VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816B6@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I don't remember what the problem was, but I had a discussion with about it back then. Indeed, there was something missing that Megan would work on ... I used the RT-11 distribution that comes with SIMH, I still do in SIMH. I will give it an other try in a couple of weeks. I know Zork is difficult to find :-) but there *must* be someone out there that has a copy (and is willing to make that available). I do not need the original disk, a copy or a .zip file would be great! - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: zaterdag 22 april 2006 18:54 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem > > At 5:13 PM +0200 4/22/06, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > >I have Planetfall and Leather goddess of Phobos (IIRC), but they are > >for the ATARI. I once tried Zemu in RT-11 in SIMH :-) but I > missed the > >correct library to get the OBJs linked. Never finished it. > > I'm guessing you were missing the SYSTEM.MLB library? > > Megan did the RT-11 port against RT-11 5.7, and there is a > good chance you won't be able to run it on any other version, > with the possible exception of 5.6. I did build an early > version of ZEMU on 5.6, but had to do the following: > > Added to ZRT.MAC > GETAVO:: > RETURN > GETCOL:: > RETURN > GETSOF:: > RETURN > > My notes seem to indicate these are some routines that Johnny > had added to the version of the source that I had, but hadn't > told Megan about at the point that I grabbed the source. I > was unable to build on 5.6 against a later version. > > I couldn't get this to build against 5.4, and at the time > didn't have 5.5. I don't know if I ever found time to try > building the V1 or > V1.5 source. > > I should still have the old version that works on my PDP-11. > > > > Quite a rare beast. If you ever find one, let us know. > > > >So, list members ... who has a copy of Zork for RT-11, and is willing > >to make it available? :-) > > Good luck finding a copy of the official release. I know I > don't have a copy, and I don't know anyone who does. > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From Useddec at aol.com Mon Apr 24 01:31:35 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 02:31:35 EDT Subject: Le Croy boards Message-ID: <3a5.181fd27.317dcac7@aol.com> I have a few dozen or so Le Croy boards for trade or sale. If you have any interest, contact me off list and I will supply you with the list. Thanks, Paul From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Apr 24 01:37:30 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 08:37:30 +0200 Subject: VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816B7@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Ohh boy, if I can not use the HSC70, even if the CI board L0009 is installed in the VAX without the CI750 (which is a complete cabinets in its own), I think I will try to sell the HSC70 to get some money back spent on the transportation on the system ... I really don't have the space for yet an other cabinet :-( I downloaded DUNGEON, but I mean Zork. Are those two (almost) identical? I never saw Zork, just read about it in an article. I will check out DUNGEON and ADVENT in RT-11 is a couple of weeks. I will also take the time to read through the updated manual (I know, ... I have it on a stack "todo" things). - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist > Sent: zondag 23 april 2006 0:45 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem > > "Gooijen, Henk" wrote: > > > Cool! Thanks Jim. > > Ethan's and your response have exact the same hh:mm time stamp! > > (at least on my computer). > > For my 11/750 I will need a copy of some OpenVMS version > first, because I > promised to wipe the disks, otherwise I > could only get the system without > the disks. I wanted the > cab with the three RA81's too, and the HSC70, > although I > am not sure if the HSC70 will ever be useful as the L0009 and > > internal cabling is not in the 11/750. > > And I have read that you need besides the L0009 more stuff > ... need to find > out what the HSC70 requires, and maybe I > come to the conclusion that the > HSC70 is only taking up > space ... I am not planning to build a cluster > (don't know > anything about that stuff either), but ... never say never > :-) > > The HSC will require a CI750, which is a whole cabinet of it's own. > If you don't have that one, you're out of luck. > > > I posted a request for Zork (PDP-11) on Amazon a year ago, > but > never had any response. So, your link to the VMS > version is great! > > Hmm. I saw that ZEMU was mentioned later in this discussion > as well, but let me start by asking if you're talking about > the Infocom commercial release, or the FORTRAN port called > DUNGEON is what you're thinking of? > > Anyway, ZEMU exists, and works just fine. However, Megan have > not done anything in a long while, so I'm not sure if it > works as is on RT-11 or not. If someone who have RT-11 is > willing to look at it, I'd be grateful. > The RSX version is just fine, though. Anyone who wants to > try, just log into MIM. > > -------------- > Junk:/home/bqt> telnet mim.update.uu.se > Trying 130.238.19.211... > Connected to mim.update.uu.se. > Escape character is '^]'. > This is MIM.Update.UU.SE > > > > hel guest/guest > > RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6 BL87mP [1,54] System MIM > 23-APR-06 00:38 Logged on Terminal TT4: as GST47 > > Good Morning > > > > ***************************************************************** > * > * > * Welcome to RSX-11M-PLUS > * > * > * > * Version 4.6 Base level 87 > * > * > * > * This is Mim.Update.UU.SE > * > * (Running on E11) > * > > ***************************************************************** > > If you have any problems, or want to ask questions, don't > be afraid to write me a mail. > > > MIM is a E11 replacement for Magica, which can't be run 24/7 > right now because of costs. Magica is still around, and > occasionally online. > The E11 license for MIM was kindly donated by John Wilson of DBIT. > (Check out www.dbit.com for more information). > > *** Try HELP FUN for more fun *** > *** Try HELP LOCAL for information about compilers and stuff > on MIM *** > *** A small FAQ have been written. Do "MORE FAQ" *** > > *** Note that help on compiling and linking are available at > HELP LOCAL *** > > Johnny (bqt at update.uu.se) > > > Last interactive login on Friday, April 21, 2006 21:19:22 (TT4:) > Last batch login on Saturday, August 9, 1997 17:36:13 > > $ @LB:[1,2]SYSLOGIN.CMD > What is your name? Johnny > > RSX-11M-PLUS BL87mP (MIM ) 1920K PDP-11/74 at 00:38:50.8, 23-APR-06 > Users=3 Idle=100% Task=.IDLE. Up: 7 days, 22:53. Ticks=3 > Errseq=0. > > user task uic pri where state size(K) ioc par > JOHNNY AT.T4 * [ Self ] 64 TT4 Stopped 4/23 GEN > J Billquist MCET44 [ Oper ] 50 _TT44 Stopped 2/8 GEN > J Billquist MCET5 [ Oper ] 50 _TT5 Stopped 2/8 GEN > JOHNNY WHOT4 * [ Self ] 50 TT4 Running 1/4 GEN > > Welcome to Magica. > This is a guest account. Please behave. > > If you'd like an account of you own, write an email to Johnny > Billquist saying so. > Please also include the following information about you: > 1) Your full name. > 2) A working email address to you. (Not an anonymous one) > 3) A line or two about who you are. > 4) A password for your account. > > If you have any other requests or wishes, just include them > too, and we'll see what can be fixed. > > /Johnny > $ zem /li > -- System games -- > Game Release Serial Inform Z-Machine > ADVENT 5 961209 6.05 5 > AMFV 77 850814 4 > BALLYHOO 97 851218 3 > BEYONDZOR 57 871221 5 > BOMBER 3 971123 6.13 5 > BORDERZON 9 871008 5 > BUREAUCRA 116 870602 4 > CUTTHROAT 23 840809 3 > DEADLINE 27 831005 3 > DOGSLIFE 1 981015 6.15 5 > DUNGEON 12 990623 6.14 5 > ENCHANTER 29 860820 3 > HITCHHIKE 31 871119 5 > HOLLYWOOD 37 861215 3 > INFIDEL 22 830916 3 > LEATHER 59 860730 3 > LURKING 203 870506 3 > MOONMIST 9 861022 3 > NORDANDBE 19 870722 4 > PLANETFAL 37 851003 3 > PLUNDERER 26 870730 3 > SAMEGAME 1 980731 6.15 5 > SEASTALKE 16 850603 3 > SHERLOCK 21 871214 5 > SORCERER 15 851108 3 > SPACEZ 1 980710 6.15 5 > SPELLBREA 87 860904 3 > STARCROSS 17 821021 3 > STATIONFA 107 870430 3 > SUSPECT 14 841005 3 > SUSPENDED 8 840521 3 > TRINITY 12 860926 4 > WISHBRING 69 850920 3 > WITNESS 22 840924 3 > ZOKOBAN 1 990810 6.21 5 > ZORK1 88 840726 3 > ZORK2 48 840904 3 > ZORK3 17 840727 3 > ZTUU 16 970828 6.13 5 > $ > ------------------------ > > Oh, and the FORTRAN version is also around: > > ------------------------ > $ dun > Welcome to Dungeon. This version created > 16-Jan-03. > This is an open field west of a white house with a boarded front door. > There is a small mailbox here. > A rubber mat saying "Welcome to Dungeon!" lies by the door. > >history > Revision history: > > 16-Jan-03 Backport to RSX-11M-PLUS (V3.2C). > 20-Oct-94 Bug fixes (V3.2B). > 01-Oct-94 Bug fixes (V3.2A). > 01-Feb-94 Portable VMS/UNIX version (V3.1A). > 01-Jan-90 Portable version (V3.0A). > 18-Oct-80 Revised DECUS version (V2.6A). > 18-Jul-80 Transportable data base file (V2.5A). > 28-Feb-80 Compressed text file (V2.4A). > 15-Nov-79 Bug fixes (V2.3A). > 18-Jan-79 Revised DECUS version (V2.2A). > 10-Oct-78 Puzzle Room (V2.1A). > 10-Sep-78 Endgame (V2.0A). > 10-Aug-78 DECUS version (V1.1B). > 14-Jun-78 Public version with parser (V1.1A). > 04-Mar-78 Debugging version (V1.0A). > >quit > Your score would be 0 [total of 616 points], in 2 moves. > This gives you the rank of Beginner. > Do you wish to leave the game? > y > Ok. > $ > ------------------- > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From Useddec at aol.com Mon Apr 24 03:42:20 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 04:42:20 EDT Subject: As is monitors and terminals Message-ID: I have a quantity of as is monitors and terminals, mostly DEC and Wyse. If you have any interest in buying or trading, please feel free to contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From Useddec at aol.com Mon Apr 24 03:48:27 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 04:48:27 EDT Subject: As is test equipment Message-ID: <29b.958f063.317deadb@aol.com> If you can use anything, let me know and I'll send you a list. Thanks, Paul From RMeenaks at olf.com Mon Apr 24 07:01:14 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 08:01:14 -0400 Subject: Sonitech Dual C40 VMEbus board Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D185570174903C@cpexchange.olf.com> Hi, Does anyone have the software/documentation/drivers for this board???? Thanks, Ram From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 24 07:54:41 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 07:54:41 -0500 Subject: VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816B7@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816B7@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <444CCA91.5070809@mdrconsult.com> Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Ohh boy, if I can not use the HSC70, even if the CI board L0009 > is installed in the VAX without the CI750 (which is a complete > cabinets in its own), I think I will try to sell the HSC70 to get > some money back spent on the transportation on the system ... > I really don't have the space for yet an other cabinet :-( > > I downloaded DUNGEON, but I mean Zork. Are those two (almost) > identical? I never saw Zork, just read about it in an article. > I will check out DUNGEON and ADVENT in RT-11 is a couple of > weeks. I will also take the time to read through the updated > manual (I know, ... I have it on a stack "todo" things). Henk, I don't know if it is the DUNGEON you have, but the following sort of implies that Zork and DUNGEON are the same game. It's the READ_ME file from the 2.11BSD Zork "source" directory: This is a patched up RT-11 binary which ran on an LSI-11. This program was originally distributed on a Purdue mailing and was full of bugs. Many bugs in that distribution have been fixed. This is not a pristine, elegent implemention but it works! DUNGEON expects following files: /usr/chris/dungeon/zork UNIX a.out file for Dungeon root segment and RT-11 Fortran Runtime /usr/chris/dungeon/dtext.dat Text file in random access-format /usr/chris/dungeon/dindex.dat Indicies (probably into dtext.dat) /usr/chris/dungeon/doverlay Original RT-11 DUNGEO.SAV (reads overlays from here) If you don't like these pathnames, "dungeon.c" may be modified to reflect the desired names. Pathnames were originally in "o.s" but "dungeon.c" was implemented at Purdue as an easier way to change them than patching binaries. However, we have standardized the d/o.s interface. It now would be an simple task to put pathnames in o.s if one so desired. Other files of interest: dungeon.c C program with date and UID check and exec of dungeon. o.s Assembler driver to make dungeon run under UNIX. Loads overlays, save/restore games, etc. This must be relocated to 0146000 and stuck on the end of the dungeon binary file "d". (We don't have sources) p1 sh file to patch up a.out file "dung" so interface between "d" and "o.s" works. 1.s kludge file to achive . = .+ 0146000 mkovl sh file to make overlay driver, attach it to "d", and make a UNIX a.out file by attaching the proper header. --ccw From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Apr 24 08:08:28 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 15:08:28 +0200 Subject: VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816C1@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi Doc, I got my DUNGEON from here: http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/5517/pdp11.htm but it's been a while since I looked at it. However, I will pick this up soon. thanks, - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Doc Shipley > Sent: maandag 24 april 2006 14:55 > To: General at mdrconsult.com; On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem > > Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > Ohh boy, if I can not use the HSC70, even if the CI board L0009 > > is installed in the VAX without the CI750 (which is a complete > > cabinets in its own), I think I will try to sell the HSC70 to > > get some money back spent on the transportation on the system ... > > I really don't have the space for yet an other cabinet :-( > > > > I downloaded DUNGEON, but I mean Zork. Are those two (almost) > > identical? I never saw Zork, just read about it in an article. > > I will check out DUNGEON and ADVENT in RT-11 is a couple of > > weeks. I will also take the time to read through the updated > > manual (I know, ... I have it on a stack "todo" things). > > Henk, > I don't know if it is the DUNGEON you have, but the > following sort of implies that Zork and DUNGEON are the same > game. It's the READ_ME file from the 2.11BSD Zork "source" directory: > > This is a patched up RT-11 binary which ran on an LSI-11. > This program was originally distributed on a Purdue mailing > and was full of bugs. Many bugs in that distribution have been fixed. > This is not a pristine, elegent implemention but it works! > > DUNGEON expects following files: > > /usr/chris/dungeon/zork UNIX a.out file for Dungeon root > segment and RT-11 Fortran Runtime > /usr/chris/dungeon/dtext.dat Text file in random access-format > /usr/chris/dungeon/dindex.dat Indicies (probably into dtext.dat) > /usr/chris/dungeon/doverlay Original RT-11 DUNGEO.SAV > (reads overlays from here) > > > If you don't like these pathnames, "dungeon.c" may be > modified to reflect the desired names. Pathnames were > originally in "o.s" but "dungeon.c" was implemented at Purdue > as an easier way to change them than patching binaries. > However, we have standardized the d/o.s interface. It now > would be an simple task to put pathnames in o.s if one so desired. > > Other files of interest: > > dungeon.c C program with date and UID check and exec of dungeon. > > o.s Assembler driver to make dungeon run under UNIX. > Loads overlays, save/restore games, etc. This must > be relocated to 0146000 and stuck on the end of the > dungeon binary file "d". (We don't have sources) > > p1 sh file to patch up a.out file "dung" so interface > between "d" and "o.s" works. > > 1.s kludge file to achive . = .+ 0146000 > > mkovl sh file to make overlay driver, attach it to "d", > and make a UNIX a.out file by attaching the > proper header. > > --ccw > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 24 11:21:26 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 11:21:26 Subject: Cyberentics ASP?? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060424112126.3bcf8d5e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I went scrounging this weekend and one of the things that I found was a Cyberentics ASP. It's a chrome and black rack mount chassis with dual 2GHz AMD Athlon MP processors, 256 Mb of DDR memory, a DriveOnModule that plugs into the IDE port and emulates a 32Mb disk drive (has linux installed), TWO Symbios LVD/SE SCSI cards and two large IBM Ultrim LTO tape drives. No other drives installed (or even a place to mount them) except the two tape drives and the Drive On Module. NO video card installed but it has two LCD displays on the front panel. What have I got here? Joe From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Apr 24 10:33:35 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 11:33:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816B7@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816B7@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <200604241536.LAA11135@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I downloaded DUNGEON, but I mean Zork. Are those two (almost) > identical? Yes and no. I've actually seen either name used for the same thing, so the answer can be "yes"...but there also is the commercial text advernture games under the Zork name (from Infocom, IIRC). They are a three-parter, where the first part is about 75% lifted from DUNGEON and 25% new, the second is about 50/50, and the third 75% new. IMO all of them are well worth playing. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From evan at snarc.net Mon Apr 24 11:18:22 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 12:18:22 -0400 Subject: Was anyone else at Trenton this weekend? Message-ID: <001601c667ba$b565bf40$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Just wondering who else might've fought the rain at the Trenton Computer Festival this weekend. >From our regional club, there was: John Allain, Bob Applegate, Bill Degnan, Bob Grieb, Herb Johnson, Andy Meyer, Bryan Pope, Jim Scheef, and myself. A few random people visited our club booth and said they used to be here on classiccmp, but I didn't get names. Best score of the flea market: Bill Degnan obtained a PDP-11. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Apr 24 11:28:16 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 11:28:16 -0500 Subject: Portable Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: <20060421210240.735ED5823E@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060421210240.735ED5823E@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <444CFCA0.7010509@oldskool.org> Bryan Pope wrote: >> >> In article <20060421204649.6BD6758265 at mail.wordstock.com>, >> bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) writes: >> >>> http://www.6502.org domain has expired :( >> Ouch! Hopefully its just a temporary outage. >> >> Did you try the Wayback Machine on ? > > I just did and they have a copy from March 10, 2005.. It will take > awhile to grep through it to find the fuse map. It appears to be back up. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 24 11:36:18 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 10:36:18 -0600 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 23 Apr 2006 17:25:48 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > >- Honeywell > > VIP 7809 > > I think you might find that this speaks some weird protocol, and that > it probably expects to be connected to a Honeywell IOP (I/O > Processor). I don't remember the specifics, and don't have my > manuals handy (not even sure I have any that cover terminals, as > they're mostly for GCOS-8). > > Do you happen to know what type computer it expected to talk to, and > do you happen to have a picture of it online anywhere? I purchased it off ebay and it has a ruggedized military shipping case and what looks to be standard RS-232 style cabling. I haven't attempted to power it on or attach it to anything yet, although the seller reported it working when powered on. I just thought the military shipping crate was too cool to pass up :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 24 12:33:23 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 12:33:23 Subject: Tektronix PEP301 mystery resolved In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060424123323.405f32fc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Richard, How big is the unit? I've seen a coule of older Tek GPIB controllers that were about 1 foot square and an 1 1/2" thick and I'm wondering if that's the same as what you have. Who's GPIB card does it use? BTW I'll see what I can track down on the terminal KB. Joe At 08:08 AM 4/23/06 -0600, you wrote: >OK, still sifting through this big pile o' stuff from DoveBid :-) > >Some of you may recall that the lot included a PEP301 16 MHz System >Controller and I didn't know what it was. Well, its an IEEE-488 >system controller built as an interface card and software combination >for a 386 PC clone. Its all branded with Tektronix logos though: main >unit, monitor and keyboard. Although there were no seals, it appears >new in box with a full set of manuals and software diskettes. > >The manuals are a stock set of manuals for PC clones of the era >(GW-BASIC, MS-DOS 3.3, owner's manual for the PC) and a manual for the >Tektronix HPIB software utilities. There is this little dinky >pamphlet sort of manual for the keyboard. People seem to be selling >that online for some reason as if you need help in figuring out a >standard 101-key IBM PC keyboard? > >I'll be scanning the Tektronix manual and uploading at some point and >try to make some disk images of the non-standard software bits. >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 24 12:34:42 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 12:34:42 Subject: 9914 Manuals (soon) available In-Reply-To: <200604230852330036.02069795@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060424123442.405f20a4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:52 AM 4/23/06 -0700, you wrote: >Fellow techies, > > Just as soon as I get my FTP archive back up (was taken down yesterday for upgrade, suffered a power supply failure, long story, grumblegrumble), at least two of the manuals (in .PDF) for the M9914 drive will be freely available. Site and path will be: > > ftp.bluefeathertech.com > > /pub/computing/hardware/storage/M4-Data/9914 > > Anonymous access works fine. However, due to bandwidth limits, only 5 such logins can be accomodated at any one time. Then again, my site is generally low-activity so 5-at-a-time isn't usually a problem. > > Now, with that said... If anyone knows how to reconfigure a dual-supply Compaq Proliant 6500 to operate off a single supply, I can get the thing back up that much sooner. Failing that, It'll need to wait for Monday evening after I can get a replacement for the one that fried. Nope, but I've seen these in the surplus stuff. Do you want me to pick one up the next time that I see it? Joe > > Keep the peace(es). > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, >Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com >kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m >"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" > > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 24 11:38:17 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 10:38:17 -0600 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 23 Apr 2006 21:29:48 -0500. <006501c66746$f5738c80$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: In article <006501c66746$f5738c80$6800a8c0 at HPLAPTOP>, "Jay West" writes: > Different terminal [servers] excel at doing different things better > than others. Can you clarify exactly what you want to accomplish? I don't have any specific end-goal in mind other than having all the terminals up and doing something visually "interesting" at once. That would either require a lot of serial ports connected to a single computer, or a terminal server. If I had to pick one area of functionality, I would say that it would be best if the terminal server could max out the transmission rates of all these terminals at once. (Unlikely, I suspect, but its a nice goal.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 24 11:39:52 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 10:39:52 -0600 Subject: VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 08:37:30 +0200. <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816B7@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: In article <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816B7 at OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net>, "Gooijen, Henk" writes: > I downloaded DUNGEON, but I mean Zork. Are those two (almost) > identical? I never saw Zork, just read about it in an article. > I will check out DUNGEON and ADVENT in RT-11 is a couple of > weeks. I will also take the time to read through the updated > manual (I know, ... I have it on a stack "todo" things). Fuzzy memory says that DUNGEON was more than ADVENT and less than Zork in terms of the scope of the game. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 24 12:23:30 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 11:23:30 -0600 Subject: Tektronix PEP301 mystery resolved In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 12:33:23. <3.0.6.16.20060424123323.405f32fc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: In article <3.0.6.16.20060424123323.405f32fc at pop-server.cfl.rr.com>, "Joe R." writes: > How big is the unit? Stock IBM PC 386 clone size desktop with a stock monitor and keyboard. > I've seen a coule of older Tek GPIB controllers > that were about 1 foot square and an 1 1/2" thick and I'm wondering if > that's the same as what you have. It looks like a run-of-the-mill desktop 386 PC. > Who's GPIB card does it use? I haven't cracked open the case to check, but the docs refer to it as a PC2A card and some of the docs apparently contain National Instrument information, so perhaps its an NI card. It appears that the Tektronix value-add is all in the software. Frankly, though the 4041 appears easier to configure and program than the PC based one does based on the docs. On the PC, things are spread out through a variety of utilities instead of it being a complete end-to-end environment provided by Tektronix. However, that's just an impression from the documentation, not from actually using the unit. For my purposes (setting up an IEEE-488 data interchange path between Commodore 8050 dual floppy drives and a PC), the PEP might be a better choice simply because its already housed in a PC. With the 4041, I'd have to transfer files back to a PC environment through the serial console port on the 4041. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 24 12:28:58 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 11:28:58 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4041 System Controller Docs Message-ID: Since I just acquired one of these new-in-box with all the docs, if someone else out there needs more docs for these let me know and I'll move them to the top of my scanning queue. Of particular interest is the documentation for several of the ROM packs and the complete programmer's reference documentation giving all the details on the BASIC language in the controller. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 24 12:41:08 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 12:41:08 -0500 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? References: Message-ID: <020b01c667c6$931c5190$6500a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote... > I don't have any specific end-goal in mind other than having all the > terminals up and doing something visually "interesting" at once. That > would either require a lot of serial ports connected to a single > computer, or a terminal server. A terminal server probably isn't the best choice then. Not completely, but in general, terminal servers are designed to take an ETHERNET connection to a telnet-capable host and make it available to dumb terminals or vice versa. It doesn't sound like you are trying to so that. You most likely don't want a terminal server, you want the data pbx that someone else mentioned. Jay West From kth at srv.net Mon Apr 24 13:03:06 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 12:03:06 -0600 Subject: VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <444D12DA.6070007@srv.net> Richard wrote: >In article <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816B7 at OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net>, > "Gooijen, Henk" writes: > > > >>I downloaded DUNGEON, but I mean Zork. Are those two (almost) >>identical? I never saw Zork, just read about it in an article. >>I will check out DUNGEON and ADVENT in RT-11 is a couple of >>weeks. I will also take the time to read through the updated >>manual (I know, ... I have it on a stack "todo" things). >> >> > >Fuzzy memory says that DUNGEON was more than ADVENT and less than Zork >in terms of the scope of the game. > > Dungeon was the original. Advent is unrelated to zork, except maybe as inspiration. Zork (the commercial version) was created by breaking dungeon into three parts, with additional stuff thrown in to fill out the three sections, and making an end-point in each. Many locations are identical. From kth at srv.net Mon Apr 24 13:09:46 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 12:09:46 -0600 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <444D146A.5070504@srv.net> Richard wrote: >I'm looking to acquire a terminal server so I can feed all the beasts >simultaneously :-). > >Before a couple days ago, I didn't know anything about terminals servers >beyond the fact that they existed, so consider me a n00b. > >I see that DEC has had a line of terminal servers. They look like >they would do the job (my needs are more along the lines of >connectivity rather than fancy features like 3270 support). > >Reading around on the net indicates that Xylogics had a good line of >terminal servers, but that the similarly named Xyplex had buggy >product. > >I'm not fixated on the DEC brand, but it looks like they made lots of >product over the years making them readily available and reasonably >priced. > >I'm looking for at least 16 ports, preferably 32 as I've already got >more than 16 terminals :-). Whether those 32 ports come in one box or >two boxes (or even 4 boxes) is not so much a concern to me as is the >total cost of acquisition. Ultimately this could feed into a public >interactive museum space exhibit on timesharing. At the moment I >could connect the following: > >- DEC > LA-120 > VT-100 > VT-278 > >- Heath/Zenith > Z-19 > >- Hewlett-Packard > HP1351A > HP2397A > HP2621A > HP2648A (2) > >- Honeywell > VIP 7809 > >- Lear Siegler > ADM-3A > ADM-5 (2) > >- Megatek > Whizzard 1645 > >- Tektronix > 4010 > 4014 > 4105 (4) > 9200T (6) > 9201T (8) > >- Televideo > 925 > >- Teletype > Model 43 > >- Texas Instruments > Silent 700 (2) > >- Westinghouse > W1643 > >Total: 39 > >Now realistically, I don't think it would be fruitfull to connect all >39 terminals in my collection as i) I plan on liquidating some of the >Tektronxi 9200T/9201Ts, one of the Silent 700s only has a modem >interface on the exterior and the Westinghouse doesn't have a keyboard >and has some sort of weird party line interface. However, even if you >factor all of those out of the picture a 32-port server still only >leaves me a few ports open. I'd probably need to get up to 64 line >capacity at some point. > > > I have an Equinox ELS-48 terminal server, with (originally) 24 MMJ ports. It uses seperate CPU and port-boards. BNC type ethernet connector. Has room for another port card, if you can find one. However, some of the lines (1-4?) are disabled due to a lightning strike. I got it mostly working again by removing the remains of the dead interface chip, and several fried filter caps. Never used it for anything after that "fix", but it tested Ok. The filter caps should probably be replaced (2 small, 2 larger), not sure of original value of the larger (value was burnt off). The interface chip is probably not easily fixed. It charred the circuit board, and the traces under it (*both* sides of the circuit board, and probably the internal layers). Several traces are gone (melted away completely). I think it only knocks out <= 4 lines. $10 + shipping (from 83401) Extra is for shipping materials, plus enough pepsi to power me up enough to reach my UPS shipper. >Suggestions? Currently I've been looking at the DECserver stuff on >ebay; they seem relatively plentiful and it seems that with patience a >good price could be had. There's a bundle of them on govliq right >now, but the operating condition is unknown. > > From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Mon Apr 24 12:57:55 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 18:57:55 +0100 Subject: VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816AD@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><006201c66567$c73df0c0$0200a8c0@p2deskto><447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200D0@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <005901c66605$220ec220$0200a8c0@p2deskto> Message-ID: <009701c667c8$9d543720$0200a8c0@p2deskto> for anyone that's following this thread, I've tried this version: http://vms.tuwien.ac.at/freewarev40/000000/ and can't get it to work. The straight download has an error in one of the .DAT files, and the zipped version has incorrect references in the executable :( Jim. From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Apr 24 02:13:29 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 03:13:29 -0400 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? Message-ID: <01C6674D.4F8CAD40@MSE_D03> ------------Original Message: Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:01:58 -0500 From: "Dave Dunfield" Subject: Re: anyone have a terminal server? >> I'm looking to acquire a terminal server so I can feed all the beasts >> simultaneously :-). >Richard, >I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for ... but I do have a >spare Newbridge 1032 data PBX. It goes up to 56 ports, and I >have scads of cards for it, so I can give you the full 56. >the 1032 is an async data PBX - it supports speeds from 50-19200 >bps, and runs each interface independantly with buffering and >flow-control to accomodate mismatched speeds (ie: your computers >and terminals don't all have to run the same speed). ----------------- And I've got a bunch of Digital Products NC16/250 NetCommanders. Similar to Dave's Newbridge units; 16 ports/256K buffer, RJ-45 RS232 only (110-19200bd) (on one main board, unlike the Newbridge). Cascade for more ports. Literature & docs available. Also some Datagram StatMuxes, modems, line drivers, converters &c. mike From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Apr 24 14:24:19 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:24:19 +0200 Subject: DUNGEON In-Reply-To: <200604241700.k3OGxbvx023254@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604241700.k3OGxbvx023254@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <444D25E3.6070000@update.uu.se> People have been bouncing ZORK, DUNGEON and Infocom around a while now. Let's clear this up once and for all (I hope). First there was ZORK. That's it, just ZORK. No numbers, no nothing. This program was written in MDL and ran on PDP-10 systems only. MDL is a Lisp-like language implemented at MIT. You're probably out of luck if you ever want to play the original ZORK on anything but a PDP-10. A person at DEC managed to get the hands on the sources of ZORK. This person then did an implementation in FORTRAN, based on the MDL sources. This is the "paranoid DEC engineer who prefers to remain anonymous". The copyright on these FORTRAN sources say "(c) 1980, 1990 INFOCOM", by the way. The authors of the MDL ZORK then started a new company whose first product was ZORK. This was a rewrite of the MDL ZORK, in a new language that they developed for this purpose, called ZIL. The ZIL compiler generated code for a virtual machine called the Z-machine. And Infocom also wrote Z-machine implementations for most of the popular computers in the early 80s, including the PDP-11. This ZORK was 75% based on parts of the MDL ZORK, and 25% completely new stuff. Later is was renamed "ZORK I", when the sequel "ZORK II" came out (which was 50% MDL ZORK, and 50% new stuff). So, this leaves os with two ZORK, and one DUNGEON. Are they the same? No. But they all originated in the MDL ZORK. ZORK I was a reimplementation by the same persons who wrote MDL ZORK. New language, new parser, some new stuff, some stuff from MDL ZORK cut out, and probably some improvements as well. DUNGEON was a reimplementation from a version of the MDL ZORK, but written in FORTRAN. This wasn't even from the final version of the MDL ZORK. However, new stuff in the MDL code somehow usually got implemented in the FORTRAN version as well a bit later. Infocom only released ZORK I as a commercial product for the PDP-11. ZORK II and ZORK III never was. And if I remember correctly, they only released a version for RT-11 on one 8" floppy. However, as I said above, when Infocom started making the commercial product, they did it together with a virtual machine. So, as long as you have an implementation of that virtual machine, you can play any of their released titles. So, for the PDP-11 then, we have: The DUNGEON implementation (FORTRAN). ZORK I, from Infocom. ZEMU, which is my implementation of the Z-machine. With ZEMU, you can play almost any Infocom game, and ZORK I, II and III are available on the net. So it's no big deal to get these on a PDP-11 today. DUNGEON was slowly extended, and then moved over to VMS instead, and changed enough that recent versions can't really compile on a PDP-11. I've backported DUNGEON to RSX-11M-PLUS. But you can forget ever getting it working in an OS without support for split I/D-space. But if someone is interested in this, just let me know, and I'll help you out. ZORK I from Infocom was the game file for ZORK I, along with their implementation of the Z-machine for the PDP-11. I've never tried it, nor do I know anyone who have a copy. However, it's pretty pointless except as a curiosity item. I'm pretty sure my implementation is better, so if you just want to play the games today, I'd say you better go with ZEMU. Various C version can nowadays also be found. They are a translation from the FORTRAN version. ADVENT have also been mentioned now, and just for the sake of completeness I might add that ADVENT is a totally different game, and the inspiration for the people who wrote ZORK. ADVENT is written in FORTRAN, and there are numerous versions out there, with different people having made additions and modifications. And ZEMU *should* work on RT-11. I have a suspicion that maybe one or two routines might be missing. If they are, it will takes us close to zero time to fix it, if just someone with RT-11 steps up to the plate. I don't have any RT-11 systems, nor much RT-11 knowledge myself. I can write some code, but I definitely can't test it. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Apr 24 14:40:39 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 12:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DUNGEON In-Reply-To: <444D25E3.6070000@update.uu.se> References: <200604241700.k3OGxbvx023254@dewey.classiccmp.org> <444D25E3.6070000@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Apr 2006, Johnny Billquist wrote: > People have been bouncing ZORK, DUNGEON and Infocom around a while now. IIRC, Zork was released in three parts parts because home computers at the time could not handle a game the size of MDL Zork. > And ZEMU *should* work on RT-11. I have a suspicion that maybe one or > two routines might be missing. If they are, it will takes us close to > zero time to fix it, if just someone with RT-11 steps up to the plate. > I don't have any RT-11 systems, nor much RT-11 knowledge myself. I can > write some code, but I definitely can't test it. If you can compile straight ANSI C on RT-11, you can use Dumb Frotz there. The result won't have screen handling, but it'll run most any Z-machine program out there. Implementing screen-handling for an RT-11 version of Frotz shouldn't be very hard. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 24 14:44:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 13:44:40 -0600 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 12:41:08 -0500. <020b01c667c6$931c5190$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <020b01c667c6$931c5190$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > A terminal server probably isn't the best choice then. Not completely, but > in general, terminal servers are designed to take an ETHERNET connection to > a telnet-capable host and make it available to dumb terminals or vice versa. > It doesn't sound like you are trying to so that. Actually this is *exactly* what I'm trying to do. > You most likely don't want a terminal server, you want the data pbx that > someone else mentioned. Why do you say that? I can't tell the difference between a data pbx and a terminal server at this point. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 24 14:45:45 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 14:45:45 -0500 Subject: DUNGEON In-Reply-To: <444D25E3.6070000@update.uu.se> References: <200604241700.k3OGxbvx023254@dewey.classiccmp.org> <444D25E3.6070000@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060424144317.100a5cb8@mail> At 02:24 PM 4/24/2006, Johnny Billquist wrote: >People have been bouncing ZORK, DUNGEON and Infocom around a while now. >Let's clear this up once and for all (I hope). I didn't hunt for inconsistencies, but there's plenty of detail at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zork http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure - John From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Apr 24 15:00:11 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:00:11 +0200 Subject: DUNGEON References: <200604241700.k3OGxbvx023254@dewey.classiccmp.org><444D25E3.6070000@update.uu.se> <6.2.3.4.2.20060424144317.100a5cb8@mail> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200E5@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> OK, I am a bit biased about information in wiki. I prefer to believe that Johnny has it correct, and then wiki. I will look up the notes of my previous Zemu attempt and set up RT11 in SIMH. - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens John Foust Verzonden: ma 24-04-2006 21:45 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: DUNGEON At 02:24 PM 4/24/2006, Johnny Billquist wrote: >People have been bouncing ZORK, DUNGEON and Infocom around a while now. >Let's clear this up once and for all (I hope). I didn't hunt for inconsistencies, but there's plenty of detail at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zork http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure - John This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 24 16:57:08 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:57:08 Subject: Tektronix PEP301 mystery resolved In-Reply-To: References: <"24 Apr 2006 12:33:23." <3.0.6.16.20060424123323.405f32fc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060424165708.467f2d38@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:23 AM 4/24/06 -0600, you wrote: > >In article <3.0.6.16.20060424123323.405f32fc at pop-server.cfl.rr.com>, > "Joe R." writes: > >> How big is the unit? > >Stock IBM PC 386 clone size desktop with a stock monitor and keyboard. > >> I've seen a coule of older Tek GPIB controllers >> that were about 1 foot square and an 1 1/2" thick and I'm wondering if >> that's the same as what you have. > >It looks like a run-of-the-mill desktop 386 PC. > >> Who's GPIB card does it use? > >I haven't cracked open the case to check, but the docs refer to it as >a PC2A card and some of the docs apparently contain National >Instrument information, so perhaps its an NI card. I strongly suspected that it was. They seem to be the most common by far. I even have a GPIB interface manual and SW set from IBM for the IBM PC and it's a copy of the NI stuff and uses a NI GPIB card. I know other companies use the NI stuff as well. It appears that >the Tektronix value-add is all in the software. Frankly, though the >4041 appears easier to configure and program than the PC based one >does based on the docs. On the PC, things are spread out through a >variety of utilities instead of it being a complete end-to-end >environment provided by Tektronix. > >However, that's just an impression from the documentation, not from >actually using the unit. For my purposes (setting up an IEEE-488 data >interchange path between Commodore 8050 dual floppy drives and a PC), >the PEP might be a better choice simply because its already housed in >a PC. With the 4041, I'd have to transfer files back to a PC >environment through the serial console port on the 4041. IMO You're MUCH better off with the PC! You have a good display, a real keyboard and a real data storage system. The 4041 was ok when PCs were big and expensive but now they're cheaper than the 4041. Joe Joe > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 24 16:58:50 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:58:50 Subject: Tektronix 4041 System Controller Docs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060424165850.465f245c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> FWIW I used to have a set of docs for the 4041 but gave them away. However I think I have some application note type docs that talk about interfacing it to various other devices. If/when I find them I'll send them to you and you can scan them and add them to the collection too. Joe At 11:28 AM 4/24/06 -0600, you wrote: >Since I just acquired one of these new-in-box with all the docs, if >someone else out there needs more docs for these let me know and I'll >move them to the top of my scanning queue. Of particular interest is >the documentation for several of the ROM packs and the complete >programmer's reference documentation giving all the details on the >BASIC language in the controller. >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 24 16:03:31 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:03:31 -0500 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? References: Message-ID: <02cf01c667e2$8b637a20$6500a8c0@BILLING> You wrote.... > Actually this is *exactly* what I'm trying to do. Ohhhh from your previous email, I thought you were hoping to use the term server to hook up terminals to classic/vintage computers that did not have an ethernet port (capability) in which case a term server isn't really what you want. But... if you are wanting to hook up terminals to a host computer that DOES have an ethernet port and speaks TCP/IP (which rules out most of the stuff in my collection anyways), then you're right, a terminal server is what you want. Jay From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Apr 24 16:51:59 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 23:51:59 +0200 Subject: Zemu, was VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem References: <200604221706.k3MH6VgQ098831@dewey.classiccmp.org> <444AB1FA.1040107@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200E6@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I tried the latest Zemu (2003) to compile under RT11XM. I don't know how to capture the command file result output in the CMD box, except by making a screen shot, converting it to .gif, but I can not send that to the CC list ... I get 3 errors from ZIO and 19 errors from ZMEM. They all seem to have a problem with an operand field construction #^X82,R1 or #^0E,-(SP). And in ZRT I get a .LIBRARY /SY:SYSTEM.MLB/ file error. I seem to remember that these were exactly the problems I had back then. It loks I am still stuck ... - Henk. > Anyway, ZEMU exists, and works just fine. However, Megan have not done > anything in a long while, so I'm not sure if it works as is on RT-11 or > not. If someone who have RT-11 is willing to look at it, I'd be grateful. > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 24 16:58:30 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 14:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Zemu, was VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200E6@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Apr 24, 2006 11:51:59 PM Message-ID: <200604242158.k3OLwUlR024889@onyx.spiritone.com> > I tried the latest Zemu (2003) to compile under RT11XM. > I don't know how to capture the command file result output in the CMD box, > except by making a screen shot, converting it to .gif, but I can not send > that to the CC list ... > I get 3 errors from ZIO and 19 errors from ZMEM. > They all seem to have a problem with an operand field construction #^X82,R1 > or #^0E,-(SP). And in ZRT I get a .LIBRARY /SY:SYSTEM.MLB/ file error. > I seem to remember that these were exactly the problems I had back then. > It loks I am still stuck ... What version of RT-11 are you trying to build it on? The error in ZRT seems to indicate you're building it on to old of a version. Where can the latest Zemu source be found? Zane From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 24 17:38:31 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:38:31 -0600 Subject: Tektronix PEP301 mystery resolved In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:57:08. <3.0.6.16.20060424165708.467f2d38@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: In article <3.0.6.16.20060424165708.467f2d38 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com>, "Joe R." writes: > IMO You're MUCH better off with the PC! You have a good display, a real > keyboard and a real data storage system. The 4041 was ok when PCs were big > and expensive but now they're cheaper than the 4041. But the 4041 has a certain retro coolness to it :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 24 17:39:24 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:39:24 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4041 System Controller Docs In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:58:50. <3.0.6.16.20060424165850.465f245c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: In article <3.0.6.16.20060424165850.465f245c at pop-server.cfl.rr.com>, "Joe R." writes: > FWIW I used to have a set of docs for the 4041 but gave them away. However > I think I have some application note type docs that talk about interfacing > it to various other devices. If/when I find them I'll send them to you and > you can scan them and add them to the collection too. Its probably best to email me the part numbers from the manuals and I'll see if I already have them. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 24 17:43:26 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:43:26 -0600 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:03:31 -0500. <02cf01c667e2$8b637a20$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <02cf01c667e2$8b637a20$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > You wrote.... > > Actually this is *exactly* what I'm trying to do. > > Ohhhh from your previous email, I thought you were hoping to use the term > server to hook up terminals to classic/vintage computers that did not have > an ethernet port (capability) in which case a term server isn't really what > you want. The end goal is to have some way of driving a significant number of terminals all at once without having one PC per terminal. I'm thinking the VAXserver could handle this, the only question is if the OpenVMS license would allow for multiple logon sessions. In some alternative reality I would like to reproduce a midrange timesharing system, probably something PDP-11 based. But those didn't have ethernet back in the day, I don't know how well they would work with a terminal server. Our PDP-11/70 had gobs of serial ports on it, I think. However, its my understanding that you could use the terminal server "in reverse" to connect from the TCP/IP enabled machine to a port on the terminal server and from there talk to the RS-232 style monitor port on an older machine like some S-100 bus based machine. While this is not my use case, I thought you could do this as people on the net talk about using terminal servers to monitor the serial console port on a Sun. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 24 17:10:15 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 23:10:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1350A vs 1351A In-Reply-To: <001d01c66749$6ed7fc80$0100a8c0@screamer> from "Bob Shannon" at Apr 23, 6 10:47:29 pm Message-ID: > > This is a little strange! > > A HP1350 will plot vectors from 0 to 1022. Hve you tried that for both coordinates? I've not played with mine much, but from the manual, it appears there's 10 bit wide memory in there. Each endpoint/character takes up 2 memory locations (hence the 2048 endpoints, it uses 4K RAMs). For endpoints, the 2 locations are simply the X and Y coordinates. For a chracter, one of them (I forget which) is set to all 1's, the other is the ASCII code (7 bits) + attributes. My guess, therefore, is that it should take from 0 to 1023 in one direction. > > A HP1351 will not. It will plot vectors from 0 to 1020. > I need to retest this up to 1021 to see exactly where the > limit is. Very odd. I suppose I'd should look at the service manual on hpmuseum.net and see if I can sport the circuit that engorces this. > > The program I'm using for this testing draws a box around > the limits of the display, and then two diagonal lines from corner > to corner. The result is a large box with an X through it. > > When the 1351 'fails' to plot the box, only the left hand Y axis > vector is drawn. No letters appear. > > When a 1350 tries to draw off the edge of the screen one > of two things happen. > > Either a vector is drawn that wraps around, or a letter or > symbol is drawn in place of the out of bounds vector. MY guess (and it is a guess) is that it truncates the value to 10 bits. If they're all ones for the appropriate coordinate, the other coordinate gets turned into a character. Otherwise it just wraps round. I am not sure if there's any limit on the number of characters that the BCD-bianray converter will handle. It may do odd things if given more than 4 digits. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 24 18:13:16 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:13:16 -0700 Subject: Prime 2550 in the UK Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8800968650 Hopefully someone nearby can save this. As someone has pointed out, this machine really needs to be saved. It is a pretty large system, and may have the sources for Salford University's FTN77 compiler on the backup tapes. From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Apr 24 18:37:31 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:37:31 -0700 Subject: Cosmetic replicas In-Reply-To: <1145555388.8141.12.camel@r003519> References: <1145555388.8141.12.camel@r003519> Message-ID: <1145921851.9595.60.camel@linux.site> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 10:49 -0700, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Hi, > > I wanted to let you folks know that I'm getting pricing on having some > cosmetic parts made up. Here's what I'm going for: > * 11/20 front panel plexis. These will be the original colors and > be an exact replica of the original 11/20 front panel plexi. It > be identical in every way to the original (except that it will > look *new*). > * H960 header panel inserts. Right now I'm getting quotes for the > blank magenta/red and the D|I|G|I|T|A|L PDP-11 inserts. > However, I also expect to be able to have produced the > yellow/brown and PDP-8E inserts as well. Note that these are > *not* the plasic header panels but are the inserts that go in > them. > > As soon as I have pricing I'll let y'all know. It should be in a couple > of days. OK, I *just* got the pricing in (gulp!) on the above items. Because of the $'s involved, I'll need to have a quantity of firm orders before I can go forward. Here's the pricing I expect to be able to do: * 11/20 front panel plexi - $150 * H960 header panel inserts - $25 (doesn't matter if it's the PDP-11 or the blank). The PDP-8/e versions will be the same price. Here's the rub. For each here are the quantities I need (these are *firm* commitments): * 11/20 panels - 25 * PDP-11 version H960 header panels (or blank magenta/red) - 50 * PDP-8/e version H960 header panels (or blank yellow/brown) - 50 If I get more than the above quantities, I can probably do a bit better on the pricing. Because of the way that the header panels are being done, a mixture within a family (PDP-11 & blank magenta/red or PDP-8/e & blank yellow/brown) count together towards the total (ie 10 PDP-11 and 40 blank magenta/red *or* 12 PDP-8/e and 38 yellow/brown). E-mail me directly indicating if you're interested. Please be aware, that if you send me an e-mail, I'm going to hold you to it! I'm doing this to help out the community, but I don't want to go broke in the process so if not enough folks are interested then I'll not do them. I'll let you know if/when I've collected enough interest to go forward. Please be prompt as the quotes do have an expiration date! :-) Thanks. -- TTFN - Guy From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 24 18:38:28 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:38:28 -0600 Subject: Prime 2550 in the UK In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:13:16 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Al Kossow writes: > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8800968650 If ever there was a machine that screamed "Tony Duel", this is it :-). Tony, you won't need to anguish about board swapping with this one, considering the rarity :). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 24 18:39:03 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:39:03 -0600 Subject: DEC Gigi terminal Message-ID: Where can I find information about it? There seems to be a dearth of info online, despite DEC being really popular among collectors. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 24 20:02:15 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 18:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Gigi terminal In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Apr 24, 2006 05:39:03 PM Message-ID: <200604250102.k3P12FoI029551@onyx.spiritone.com> > Where can I find information about it? There seems to be a dearth of > info online, despite DEC being really popular among collectors. 'd have to hit the old documentation, and even then it will most likely have to be specific to the terminal itself. Any doc's I've looked at barely do more than mention it exists. Warning, I don't think that this is something you're going to use without a system like a VAX-11/780 to connect it to. As I recall it was connected to the controller board in the VAX via a fibre optic cable. Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 24 20:28:56 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 18:28:56 -0700 Subject: DEC Gigi terminal Message-ID: > As I recall it was connected > to the controller board in the VAX via a fibre optic cable. That was the VS-100, which is of historical interest because it was was what the X Window system was developed on. GIGIs are raster termials using the REGIS command set. "REGIS graphics GIGI" turns up a few interesting google hits. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 24 20:41:13 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 19:41:13 -0600 Subject: DEC Gigi terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 18:02:15 -0700. <200604250102.k3P12FoI029551@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: In article <200604250102.k3P12FoI029551 at onyx.spiritone.com>, "Zane H. Healy" writes: > Warning, I don't think that this is something you're going to use without > a system like a VAX-11/780 to connect it to. As I recall it was connected > to the controller board in the VAX via a fibre optic cable. Well a friend has one in his lab, and he reports using it but he didn't specify what was on the other end of the conversation with the terminal. I'll ask him about it. I remember seeing one of these around 1980 and we were a PDP-11 shop, so if it could *only* be connected to a VAX I don't know what we were doing with one. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 24 20:45:12 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:45:12 -0500 Subject: Prime 2550 in the UK References: Message-ID: <000c01c66809$e4e8bc50$6500a8c0@BILLING> Man, I'd just LOVE to have that animal. I installed countless 2550's at every Anhueser-Busch brewery, and spent quite a few years developing QA software for AB on them. What memories. I've been wanting a 2550 for a long time. But alas..... no way can I stomach shipping for those 3 units from the UK :| Jay From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 24 20:59:07 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 02:59:07 +0100 Subject: Prime 2550 in the UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <444D826B.2010008@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8800968650 > > Hopefully someone nearby can save this. As someone has pointed > out, this machine really needs to be saved. It is a pretty large > system, and may have the sources for Salford University's FTN77 > compiler on the backup tapes. Shame we're not nearby :-( Have forwarded to our group just in case, though. If anyone happens to be heading south from that area with a van anyway in the near future, shout :-) (We've got a PR1ME 750, but currently no OS media - I suspect those backup tapes may well boot on our system) cheers Jules From david_comley at yahoo.com Mon Apr 24 21:04:22 2006 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 19:04:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Was anyone else at Trenton this weekend? In-Reply-To: <001601c667ba$b565bf40$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <20060425020423.11959.qmail@web30615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I was there - in fact I attended your presentation on MARCH and antique computing, which I thought was very good, and Frank's presentation on the Apollo guidance computer, plus a couple of others. In fact the ghastly weather was probably a blessing in disguise because for the first time I spent more time listening to programme speakers indoors and less time in search of stuff in the flea market. -Dave --- Evan Koblentz wrote: > Just wondering who else might've fought the rain at > the Trenton Computer > Festival this weekend. > > >From our regional club, there was: John Allain, Bob > Applegate, Bill Degnan, > Bob Grieb, Herb Johnson, Andy Meyer, Bryan Pope, Jim > Scheef, and myself. > > A few random people visited our club booth and said > they used to be here on > classiccmp, but I didn't get names. > > Best score of the flea market: Bill Degnan obtained > a PDP-11. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From drb at msu.edu Mon Apr 24 21:08:35 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:08:35 -0400 Subject: Prime 2550 in the UK In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:13:16 PDT.) References: Message-ID: <200604250208.k3P28ZGK029229@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8800968650 > > Hopefully someone nearby can save this. As someone has pointed > out, this machine really needs to be saved. It is a pretty large > system, and may have the sources for Salford University's FTN77 > compiler on the backup tapes. Please, someone save this machine, even if you pull the internal parts and ditch the cabinets. The software really needs to be saved before it's all lost forever. Whoever grabs it, let's talk about the software. De From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 24 21:08:50 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 19:08:50 -0700 Subject: DEC Gigi terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 6:28 PM -0700 4/24/06, Al Kossow wrote: > > As I recall it was connected >> to the controller board in the VAX via a fibre optic cable. > >That was the VS-100, which is of historical interest because it was >was what the X Window system was developed on. > >GIGIs are raster termials using the REGIS command set. > >"REGIS graphics GIGI" turns up a few interesting google hits. One of these years I'll remember which is which... So how different is a GIGI from something like a VT340+? I must confess I lust after a VT340+. Not that I have room for one :^( I don't have any terminals that support REGIS, and really wish I did. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From drb at msu.edu Mon Apr 24 21:09:40 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:09:40 -0400 Subject: Prime 2550 in the UK In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:38:28 MDT.) References: Message-ID: <200604250209.k3P29e6j029293@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8800968650 > > If ever there was a machine that screamed "Tony Duel", this is it :-). > > Tony, you won't need to anguish about board swapping with this one, > considering the rarity :). Tony, I have a little bit of documentation if you buy his argument. :-) De From drb at msu.edu Mon Apr 24 21:18:26 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:18:26 -0400 Subject: DEC Gigi terminal In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 17:39:03 MDT.) References: Message-ID: <200604250218.k3P2IQcl029566@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Where can I find information about it? There seems to be a dearth > of info online, despite DEC being really popular among collectors. It's an ANSI/VT52/ReGIS graphics terminal, or a microcomputer with a BASIC interpreter, depending on which way you boot it. It was typically connected to a Barco graphics monitor. Try looking for VK100, and for ReGIS graphics. http://www.daedalus.co.nz/don/computing/gigi.html http://vt100.net/emu/ http://www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/unfinished/AA-K335A-TK%20GIGI%20BASIC%20Manual.tif http://www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/unfinished/EK-VK100-IN-002%20GIGI%20Terminal%20Installation%20And%20Owner%27s%20Manual.tif http://www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/unfinished/EK-VK100-TM-001%20VK100%20Technical%20Manual.tif De From drb at msu.edu Mon Apr 24 21:19:24 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:19:24 -0400 Subject: Prime 2550 in the UK In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:45:12 CDT.) <000c01c66809$e4e8bc50$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <000c01c66809$e4e8bc50$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200604250219.k3P2JOdO029630@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > But alas..... no way can I stomach shipping for those 3 units from > the UK :| How much do you figure it would cost? De From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 24 21:22:36 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:22:36 -0600 Subject: Prime 2550 in the UK In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:08:35 -0400. <200604250208.k3P28ZGK029229@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <200604250208.k3P28ZGK029229 at yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, Dennis Boone writes: > Please, someone save this machine, even if you pull the internal parts > and ditch the cabinets. The software really needs to be saved before > it's all lost forever. Should we collectively fund a rescue with donations? ;-) Tony, where are you?!? :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 24 21:24:52 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:24:52 -0600 Subject: DEC Gigi terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 18:28:56 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Al Kossow writes: > > As I recall it was connected > > to the controller board in the VAX via a fibre optic cable. > > That was the VS-100, which is of historical interest because it was > was what the X Window system was developed on. Any docs around on that, Al? I thought the VS-100 was vector based and not raster based? > GIGIs are raster termials using the REGIS command set. > > "REGIS graphics GIGI" turns up a few interesting google hits. I should have looked at manx first... I'm still in the habit of thinking "if google doesn't find it, it probably doesn't exist", which I'm finding is a false assumption for lots of cctalk era tech. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 24 21:35:59 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:35:59 -0600 Subject: NAPLPS (was: DEC Gigi terminal) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 19:08:50 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > So how different is a GIGI from something like a VT340+? I must > confess I lust after a VT340+. Not that I have room for one :^( I > don't have any terminals that support REGIS, and really wish I did. I found that Manx has gobs of docs for gigi, so you could read the Installation and Owner's Manual in PDF format. Speaking of serial graphics protocols, does anyone on the list have a device that supports NAPLPS ("nap-lips" - North American Presentation Layer Protocol Syntax)? There is mention of a "Sceptre NAPLPS terminal from AT&T". -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 24 21:38:55 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:38:55 -0500 Subject: Prime 2550 in the UK References: <000c01c66809$e4e8bc50$6500a8c0@BILLING> <200604250219.k3P2JOdO029630@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <009b01c66811$6681c070$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > How much do you figure it would cost? Easily a couple grand I would think, from there to STL MO Also, I wouldn't think the OS tapes for the 2550 would work on the 750 which is a much older system. But, I really don't know! Jay West From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Apr 24 21:46:09 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 19:46:09 -0700 Subject: New GTTY - A Glass TTY + Load paper tape for a PDP-8/E/F/M/A - now WITH "PACING" Message-ID: <200604241946.09700.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Want a program to act as a "Glass" TTY for your PDP-8x - with paper tape file upload and capture capabilities? Free? You can download if via anonymous FTP from "bickleywest.com" or using your browser via "ftp://bickleywest.com". The new version of "GTTY" contains pacing, so that slow PDP-8 programs can read from the "paper tape reader" without issues. Included: The hardware changes you'll need to make on your console async. board to get "pacing" functionality. To make it work you'll need a serial cable from your PDP-8/x TTY console (EIA RS-232 mode) to the serial port of a DOS capable PC. GTTY has been tested with DOS 6.22 and a DOS Window in Windows 98se and Windows XT. A copy of the file "gtty.txt" which describes it's capabilities and limitations is below. ---------------------------------------------------------- GTTY - A Glass TTY + Load paper tape software into a PDP-8 Version 0.91, 4/24/2006 ---------------------------------------------------------- Lyle Bickley, Bickley Consulting West Inc. Note: Changes from release 0.8 include: 1) Ability to "pace" using hardware CTS based on Reader Run. Helpful in dealing with slow software reads from "paper tape" by FOCAL, etc. 2) New function to allow escaping from a "hung" load from CTS drop (Reader Run off). Useful when the BIN loader halts on completion of a load - and there is still "paper tape" trailer in a file. 3) Now supports up to 38400 baud. 4) There is a new function key and a new parameter (see below) Acknowledgemets --------------- This software was inspired by K. McQuiggin's "RIM Client, Version 0.2" (July, 1998), AKA "send.c": http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/software/send.c The hardware modifications recommended below are directly or indirectly from Aaron Nabil's site: http://pdp-8.org/flow.html. Also helpful are Douglas Jones "Notes" on the KL8E and KL8JA asynchronous Interfaces: http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/hard8e/kl8e.html http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/hard8e/kl8ja.html Software - "Glass TTY - GTTY" ----------------------------- I decided to write a complete "Glass" TTY that could be used as a console, paper tape "reader" and "punch" for my PDP-8/F. I also wanted it to be capable of "pacing", so it could be functional with programs such as FOCAL and multi-segement tapes. Starting up, it is a full duplex glass TTY - and sends the characters you type to the PDP-8 and displays the characters received from the PDP-8 on the screen/monitor. Hitting the "F2" key - it asks you for a PT (paper tape) filename - lets you specify whether you want it to strip "garbage" characters from the tape before uploading it to the PDP8. After the upload, it automatically switches back to "glass" TTY mode. If GTTY get's "hung" while uploading (typically the BIN loader halting after complition of a load with trailer remaining in the "reader") hit F3. This will escape the pacing wait from CTS dropping (RDR RUN off). Hitting the "F4" key asks for the name of a "Capture" file. After entering a filename and hitting "Enter", all data received from the PDP-8 will be captured to the file. Note that the display is turned off - as typically the data to be "captured" is a binary punch file. Hitting the "F5" key closes the capture file and GTTY switches back to "glass" TTY mode. The other two active function keys are "F1" - Help, and "F6" - Exit. Notes: 1. No function keys get passed to the PDP-8 (even those that are not "progamatically active". 2. Filenames are limited to DOS's 8.3 filename format. 3. The GTTY startup parameters (upper or lower case) are: -P port [COM port=1,2,3 or 4] Default "1" -B baud [Baud rate=110,300,600,1200,2400,4800,9600 or 19200] Default "9600" -S stop bits [Number of stop bits=1 or 2] Default "1" -N No CTS hardware (Turns of pacing for those who haven't made the appropriate hardware changes to their KL8E or KL8-JA boards.) -H help 4. I'm a *NIX buff and haven't written DOS code for years, but I wrote GTTY as a DOS program because I know there are a lot of collectors that use "imagedisk", "Teledisk", "PUTR", etc. which only operate on DOS - and many folks who don't have *NIX systems. I've successfully tested GTTY on DOS 6.22, Windows 98 SE in a DOS window, and Windows XT [Home Edition] in a DOS window. 5. I'm including the source code, for anyone who would like to "hack" the program, add feature, etc. My only request is that if you release it back to the community that you change it's name, and maintain my copyright notice in the code and startup. Note that it is totally "free" when used for non-commercial use. Please contact me at lbickley at bickleywest.com for commercial use. 6. I wrote GTTY in "C" - and wanted to use a freely available DOS compiler and libraries. I selected Dave Dunfield's "Micro-C". Dave's compiler and libraries let you get close enough to the "metal" to make a program such as GTTY responsive and effective - easily handling communications, screen and keyboard control simultaneously. His compiler can be downloaded from: www.dunfield.com, either "free" or if you want all the examples and library source (I did) for the modest cost of $25. 7. I've successfully uploaded virtually every paper tape diagnostic available for my system (and it's I/O). In addition, I've uploaded FOCAL and other software without error at 9600 baud. I've tried it using both the M8550-YA and the M8655 "TTY" console boards with equal success. 8. I've tested GTTY with 38400 baud and slow reading - and pacing works! 9. The keyboard backspace and delete keys both generate a TTY rubout (Octal 377) character. NEW Section - Hardware changes to implement "Pacing" ---------------------------------------------------- When running programs like the RIM or BIN loaders, the PDP-8/E is easily able to "keep up" reading a paper tape file from GTTY. However, some programs as FOCAL, read the paper tape reader slowly. Without hardware modifications, GTTY will attempt to "cram" characters to the PDP-8 when it isn't capable of reading them - hence missed data. To fix this problem, your M8550 or M8655 TTY console board needs to be modified. The modification essentially ties RTS/DTR (CTS after a full handshake null modem) to the Reader Run flip flop on the console board. GTTY is able to sense CTS and wait until Reader Run is set (CTS O.K.) before sending a character to the PDP-8. The hardware changes for the KL8-JA are written up nicely by Aaron Nabil at his website: http://pdp-8.org/flow.html. I suggest that you use the "UNTESTED BUT SHOULD WORK" procedure described after steps 1-5. I've tested it - and it works perfectly. The big advantage of this procedure is that current loop remains functional. I also wanted GTTY to work with the older KL8E async controller (M8650). It turns out that the hardware modifications are much easier on the older board! On E32 (MC1488) remove the solder from pins 4 and 5. Gently bend the pins away from the board so they no longer make contact. Solder both pins 4 and 5 to a jumper wire. Connect the other end of the jumper to E48 (7474 - Rdr Run) pin 9. That's it! The older board works great with both current and EIA modes without any other changes. Have fun! Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From rollerton at gmail.com Mon Apr 24 21:54:31 2006 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:54:31 -0500 Subject: Prime 2550 in the UK In-Reply-To: <009b01c66811$6681c070$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000c01c66809$e4e8bc50$6500a8c0@BILLING> <200604250219.k3P2JOdO029630@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <009b01c66811$6681c070$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <2789adda0604241954y7e1ceee6rc10ee3be29119832@mail.gmail.com> The 750 was introduced january 1979, I think it was required rev 15 or later (might have been 16) of Primos. The 2xxx series started to introduce loadable firmware (5.25" floppy) etc. and required the later releases, like in the 20s. My memory of this is fuzzy, I left Prime in 1983ish. On 4/24/06, Jay West wrote: > > How much do you figure it would cost? > Easily a couple grand I would think, from there to STL MO > > Also, I wouldn't think the OS tapes for the 2550 would work on the 750 which > is a much older system. But, I really don't know! > > Jay West > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 24 22:09:49 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:09:49 -0700 Subject: NAPLPS (was: DEC Gigi terminal) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604242009490932.974927C2@10.0.0.252> On 4/24/2006 at 8:35 PM Richard wrote: >Speaking of serial graphics protocols, does anyone on the list have a >device that supports NAPLPS ("nap-lips" - North American Presentation >Layer Protocol Syntax)? Believe it or not, the Fortune Systems terminal supported NAPLPS--that and its cousin, Videotex. I still have the standard docs in my files. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 24 22:17:58 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:17:58 -0600 Subject: NAPLPS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <444D94E6.80607@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > In article , > "Zane H. Healy" writes: > > >>So how different is a GIGI from something like a VT340+? I must >>confess I lust after a VT340+. Not that I have room for one :^( I >>don't have any terminals that support REGIS, and really wish I did. > > > I found that Manx has gobs of docs for gigi, so you could read the > Installation and Owner's Manual in PDF format. > > Speaking of serial graphics protocols, does anyone on the list have a > device that supports NAPLPS ("nap-lips" - North American Presentation > Layer Protocol Syntax)? > > There is mention of a "Sceptre NAPLPS terminal from AT&T". At one time you could get a software package to turn your PC into a NAPLPS display device. Here in Canada you could get NAPLPS display terminals but they were as slow as hell. They also stuck to TV output resolution - 256 color 320 x 200. 1200 baud download / 300 baud upload I belive. From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Apr 24 23:15:43 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 23:15:43 -0500 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? Message-ID: <20060425031654.IAFW20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> RXed this machine on the weekend. It appears to be an Alpha of some sort. Physically looks like a generic ATX PC clone, in a standard ATX case with powers supply - has PS/2 keyboard/mouse, two COM and 1 LPT ports. The board has two standard PCI slots, what appears to be two extended (64 bit?) PCI slots, and two ISA slots. Now the parts that don't look so much like a PC: - The memory consists of an array of 4 DIMMs, which although I haven't counted them, look like 168pin sockets. But the DIMMs are about three times the height of a normal DIMM, and do say "Digital" (as in DEC) on them. - Honkin big ceramic CPU - has studs in it for mounting the heatsink directly to the CPU chip. Under the heatsink is the following printed on the ceramic edge of the CPU: DEC 1026J H 9707 PROTO JD0855 (C) (M) DEC 1995 It was pretty well stripped when I got it - Had installed what looks like a generic S3 PCI video card (ie: looks like a PC card), and some sort of ISA multi-channel video capture card. The mainboard has 2 IDE and 1 floppy connectors although no such drives or cabling were in it - There was a SCSI CD in the enclosure, bit no SCSI controller (however several of the backplates were missing suggesting there might have been additional cards. The two cards that were in it were not actually fastened in - so they may or may not belong with it. Anyone know what this thing might be? Unfortunately it doesn't appear to do anything - No video, no beeps, no serial port activity, no toggeling of status lights on the keyboard - does power-up and down with the front panel button, but does nothing else. (It occurs to me that if the video card were not the correct one, the Alpha obviously would not know how to run the x86 BIOS on a PC card and it might either crash (if it tried to execute it), or get hung up because it doesn't have a video device it can talk to. (I haven't tried the video card in a PC, but I will at some point). It's probably a doorstop, but I wanted to check and see if anyone recognizes it --- the "PROTO" on the CPU seems interesting ... Could this be a prototype of some sort? Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Apr 24 22:11:14 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 23:11:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tektronix PEP301 mystery resolved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604250318.XAA14983@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> IMO You're MUCH better off with the PC! You have a good display, *snerk* You need a C&C warning on things like that! Good display? The platform that drove XFree86's madness? Where you *can't* just have a memory-mapped framebuffer? Where the situation is so chaotic that user-land programs are doing their own bus enumeration (!!) to deal with the mess?? Where half the displays available don't even have documentation!? I'm used to Suns. You start X, it maps the framebuffer and it all Just Works. It's not software subtrefuge, either; I've looked at all the relevant code, clear from building my own ddx layer in the X server all the way to the mmap routine in the driver, and it really is as simple as it sounds. I've tried on two different occasions to get X working on peecee-family hardware, and the best I ever managed was 320x200. >> a real keyboard Where did you find a real keyboard for a peecee? Or did you just do the level-shifter thing and hang the real keyboard off a serial port? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From evan at snarc.net Mon Apr 24 22:20:02 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 23:20:02 -0400 Subject: Was anyone else at Trenton this weekend? In-Reply-To: <20060425020423.11959.qmail@web30615.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c66817$24fffad0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>> I was there - in fact I attended your presentation on MARCH and antique computing, which I thought was very good, Ah, thank you. I geared it for newbies so you probably didn't learn much. At our club table, we informed several hundred people about the VCF throughout the weekend, so hopefully some of them will become collectors for life. -----Original Message----- From: David Comley [mailto:david_comley at yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 10:04 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Was anyone else at Trenton this weekend? I was there - in fact I attended your presentation on MARCH and antique computing, which I thought was very good, and Frank's presentation on the Apollo guidance computer, plus a couple of others. In fact the ghastly weather was probably a blessing in disguise because for the first time I spent more time listening to programme speakers indoors and less time in search of stuff in the flea market. -Dave --- Evan Koblentz wrote: > Just wondering who else might've fought the rain at the Trenton > Computer Festival this weekend. > > >From our regional club, there was: John Allain, Bob > Applegate, Bill Degnan, > Bob Grieb, Herb Johnson, Andy Meyer, Bryan Pope, Jim Scheef, and > myself. > > A few random people visited our club booth and said they used to be > here on classiccmp, but I didn't get names. > > Best score of the flea market: Bill Degnan obtained a PDP-11. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Apr 24 22:18:27 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 23:18:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: anyone have a terminal server? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604250319.XAA15005@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > However, its my understanding that you could use the terminal server > "in reverse" to connect from the TCP/IP enabled machine to a port on > the terminal server and from there talk to the RS-232 style monitor > port on an older machine like some S-100 bus based machine. This depends on the terminal server. Some of them do this ("reverse telnet", I think at least one of them calls it); others don't. If this is what you want, you need to be careful when looking at terminal servers to make sure you get one that can do it. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 24 22:25:28 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:25:28 -0500 Subject: NAPLPS (was: DEC Gigi terminal) In-Reply-To: <200604242009490932.974927C2@10.0.0.252> References: <200604242009490932.974927C2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060424222327.05c22e38@mail> At 10:09 PM 4/24/2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Believe it or not, the Fortune Systems terminal supported NAPLPS--that and >its cousin, Videotex. I still have the standard docs in my files. Wasn't there a Commodore 64 program that tried to handle NAPLPS, too? Sure enough, from CES '84, from my old friend Peggy Herrington: http://pegboard.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=10 - John From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Apr 24 22:29:36 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:29:36 -0500 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <444D94E6.80607@jetnet.ab.ca> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> I have a pair of IDE hard drives and I want to do a raw copy from one to the other. I've tried a couple of different approaches so far without much luck. My first experiment was with linux where I created a PC linux boot CD and hooked my two drives up planning to just dd from one drive's raw device to the other. To my amazement, I discovered that linux does not have a raw disk I/O capability by default. I tried using the block devices, but the resulting copy was not intact. After doing a bit of searching, I discovered that there is some sort of rawio extension which allows a raw device to be associated with a block device, but it also said that dd would not work with this raw device due to buffer alignment issues vs. DMA. Go figure... My second attempt was with a NetBSD 3.0 install CD, exiting to the shell and trying dd from rwd0a to rwd1a. I know that back in the dark ages, this was possible, but apparently in these modern times things have changed. When I try to do this I receive a read only error on the /dev/rwd1a device. When the PC boots, the wdX information goes by to quickly to read and the dmesg command is not present on the install CD image. Is what I want to do possible (anymore)? Do I have to resort to purchasing Partition Magic or Ghost or something like that? Do these programs even work on raw disks which have no file system? --tnx --tom From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Apr 24 22:33:44 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 23:33:44 -0400 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <20060425031654.IAFW20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060425031654.IAFW20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200604242333.44873.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 25 April 2006 00:15, Dave Dunfield wrote: > RXed this machine on the weekend. It appears to be an Alpha of > some sort. > > Physically looks like a generic ATX PC clone, in a standard ATX > case with powers supply - has PS/2 keyboard/mouse, two COM > and 1 LPT ports. This sounds like a bog-standard AlphaPC 164LX board. I've got a bunch (with 533MHz 21164A's and one with a 600MHz 21164A) that I use as webservers and such. They use registered ECC PC100 DIMMs I think, but must be "low densitiy" - they take any DIMM up to 128MB, and double-sided (18 chip) 256MB DIMMs. They've got an x86 emulator in the BIOS, so you can use a PC PCI video card, have on-board IDE and floppy interfaces (the IDE is really slow). They can netboot from either Tulip-chipset cards, or Intel eepro 100 nics (if you have a new enough firmware). They can also boot off an NCR/SYM53C875 chipset or Adaptec AHA2940 SCSI card (those are the only ones I've tried). It should also be able to do a serial console - try hooking something up to the first serial port (9600-8-n-1), and see if you get a response. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 24 22:40:26 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:40:26 -0500 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <20060425031654.IAFW20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060425031654.IAFW20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060424223809.05bc4800@mail> At 11:15 PM 4/24/2006, Dave Dunfield wrote: >(It occurs to me that if the video card were not the correct one, the Alpha >obviously would not know how to run the x86 BIOS on a PC card and it >might either crash (if it tried to execute it), I have this odd memory of Alphas (and MIPS?) having x86 emulators in order to talk to the video ROMs. - John From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Apr 24 22:42:16 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 23:42:16 -0400 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604242342.16528.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 23 April 2006 14:47, Richard wrote: > I see that DEC has had a line of terminal servers. They look like > they would do the job (my needs are more along the lines of > connectivity rather than fancy features like 3270 support). > > Reading around on the net indicates that Xylogics had a good line of > terminal servers, but that the similarly named Xyplex had buggy > product. I've never heard anything all that good from people that have used Xylogics Annex boxes. At work, we use a whole bunch of Xyplex Maxserver 1640s for console servers, and they Just Work.. They're a direct descendant of DECservers (from what I understand, DEC sold off the line to Xyplex). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Apr 24 22:44:53 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:44:53 -0700 Subject: Note on Nabil's KL8-JA hardware mods... Message-ID: <200604242044.53925.lbickley@bickleywest.com> There is a minor "bug" in Nabil's hardware mods for adding reader run (CTS) to a KL8-JA. In #5 of his writeup, he states "Jumper from pin 7 of E39 ...". It should read "Jumper from pin 6 of E39 ..." Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 24 22:46:31 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:46:31 -0500 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? References: <200604250319.XAA15005@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <00c601c6681a$d7513660$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Richard wrote.... >> However, its my understanding that you could use the terminal server >> "in reverse" to connect from the TCP/IP enabled machine to a port on >> the terminal server and from there talk to the RS-232 style monitor >> port on an older machine like some S-100 bus based machine. To which Der Mouse replied... > This depends on the terminal server. Some of them do this ("reverse > telnet", I think at least one of them calls it); others don't. If this > is what you want, you need to be careful when looking at terminal > servers to make sure you get one that can do it. Exactly my point... which is why I said " *GENERALLY* terminal servers aren't the right tool for this", and instead said the data pbx was. Richard keeps saying 'terminal server', but all he specifies makes me think he wants the data pbx instead. Jay From drb at msu.edu Mon Apr 24 22:46:48 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 23:46:48 -0400 Subject: Prime 2550 in the UK In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:38:55 CDT.) <009b01c66811$6681c070$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <009b01c66811$6681c070$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <000c01c66809$e4e8bc50$6500a8c0@BILLING> <200604250219.k3P2JOdO029630@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200604250346.k3P3km5h000502@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Also, I wouldn't think the OS tapes for the 2550 would work on the > 750 which is a much older system. But, I really don't know! There were not, during the period I worked on Primes, variants for different hardware. Once Primos started supporting a new type of hardware, it rarely stopped -- backwards compatibility was one of the albatrossen which sank the company, IMHO. Even the hardware had the disease. How many architectures do you know of which had working support for 7 or 8 completely different addressing models, complete with the predictable effects on the assembler language? The machines I worked on in the mid-late 80s still had 16S mode support, which if I understand correctly, was essentially the architecture Prime inherited from the old H316/516 machines used in the early Internet IMPs. There are older machines which were NOT 50-series hardware, which ran some older ancestral version than the Primos IV which ran on the -50s. But Primos IV for 50 series should run on virtually anything from a 250 on up. Those tapes should work just fine on a 750, if they're readable at all. De From mcesari at comcast.net Mon Apr 24 22:47:16 2006 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:47:16 -0600 Subject: DEC Gigi terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 24, 2006, at 8:08 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 6:28 PM -0700 4/24/06, Al Kossow wrote: >> > As I recall it was connected >>> to the controller board in the VAX via a fibre optic cable. >> >> That was the VS-100, which is of historical interest because it was >> was what the X Window system was developed on. >> >> GIGIs are raster termials using the REGIS command set. >> >> "REGIS graphics GIGI" turns up a few interesting google hits. > > One of these years I'll remember which is which... > > So how different is a GIGI from something like a VT340+? I must > confess I lust after a VT340+. Not that I have room for one :^( I > don't have any terminals that support REGIS, and really wish I did. > > Zane Do you have DWMotif on any of your VMS systems? If so, DECterm will emulate a vt340 and display ReGIS graphics (color!). All you need is the software to drive it. (And images to display.) Mike From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Apr 24 22:47:51 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:47:51 -0500 Subject: raw disk copying? Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424224705.0257ce60@mail.ubanproductions.com> After some more searching, it appears that the whole disk device suffix has changed from 'c' to 'd' and as such if I use /dev/rwd1d as the destination, it doesn't complain. I'll know more after it completes in a few hours. Sorry to bother people with stupid questions... I'm still curious if Partition Magic and/or Ghost are able to copy raw disks. --tnx --tom >I have a pair of IDE hard drives and I want to do a raw copy >from one to the other. I've tried a couple of different approaches >so far without much luck. > >My first experiment was with linux where I created a PC linux >boot CD and hooked my two drives up planning to just dd from >one drive's raw device to the other. To my amazement, I discovered >that linux does not have a raw disk I/O capability by default. >I tried using the block devices, but the resulting copy was >not intact. After doing a bit of searching, I discovered that >there is some sort of rawio extension which allows a raw device >to be associated with a block device, but it also said that dd >would not work with this raw device due to buffer alignment >issues vs. DMA. Go figure... > >My second attempt was with a NetBSD 3.0 install CD, exiting to >the shell and trying dd from rwd0a to rwd1a. I know that back >in the dark ages, this was possible, but apparently in these >modern times things have changed. When I try to do this I receive >a read only error on the /dev/rwd1a device. When the PC boots, >the wdX information goes by to quickly to read and the dmesg >command is not present on the install CD image. > >Is what I want to do possible (anymore)? Do I have to resort >to purchasing Partition Magic or Ghost or something like that? >Do these programs even work on raw disks which have no file >system? > >--tnx >--tom From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 24 22:49:05 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:49:05 -0500 Subject: Prime 2550 in the UK References: <000c01c66809$e4e8bc50$6500a8c0@BILLING><200604250219.k3P2JOdO029630@yagi.h-net.msu.edu><009b01c66811$6681c070$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <2789adda0604241954y7e1ceee6rc10ee3be29119832@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00d701c6681b$33822250$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Robert wrote.... > The 750 was introduced january 1979, I think it was required rev 15 or > later (might have been 16) of Primos. The 2xxx series started to > introduce loadable firmware (5.25" floppy) etc. and required the later > releases, like in the 20s. My memory of this is fuzzy, I left Prime > in 1983ish. I'm quite sure that the 2550's I installed were running rel 19. Wonder of the 2550 has a PT200 terminal to go with :) What was the console command to boot from cartridge tape... BOOT 14114 or something like that? Jay From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 24 22:52:24 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:52:24 -0600 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 23:18:27 -0400. <200604250319.XAA15005@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: In article <200604250319.XAA15005 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, der Mouse writes: > > However, its my understanding that you could use the terminal server > > "in reverse" to connect from the TCP/IP enabled machine to a port on > > the terminal server and from there talk to the RS-232 style monitor > > port on an older machine like some S-100 bus based machine. > > This depends on the terminal server. Some of them do this ("reverse > telnet", I think at least one of them calls it); others don't. If this > is what you want, you need to be careful when looking at terminal > servers to make sure you get one that can do it. It would be nice. Don't the DECserver 90 & 700 models do this? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From dmabry at mich.com Mon Apr 24 22:56:58 2006 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 23:56:58 -0400 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <444D9E0A.6000901@mich.com> My experience with Ghost is that if it doesn't understand the particular file structure on the disk being copied that it will do a raw type of copy. That is by partition. It can understand one partition (for example) and deal with files and not understand a second partition and do a raw copy of it. That is common on disks with hibernation partitions that are specific to manufacturers. Tom Uban wrote: > I have a pair of IDE hard drives and I want to do a raw copy > from one to the other. I've tried a couple of different approaches > so far without much luck. > > My first experiment was with linux where I created a PC linux > boot CD and hooked my two drives up planning to just dd from > one drive's raw device to the other. To my amazement, I discovered > that linux does not have a raw disk I/O capability by default. > I tried using the block devices, but the resulting copy was > not intact. After doing a bit of searching, I discovered that > there is some sort of rawio extension which allows a raw device > to be associated with a block device, but it also said that dd > would not work with this raw device due to buffer alignment > issues vs. DMA. Go figure... > > My second attempt was with a NetBSD 3.0 install CD, exiting to > the shell and trying dd from rwd0a to rwd1a. I know that back > in the dark ages, this was possible, but apparently in these > modern times things have changed. When I try to do this I receive > a read only error on the /dev/rwd1a device. When the PC boots, > the wdX information goes by to quickly to read and the dmesg > command is not present on the install CD image. > > Is what I want to do possible (anymore)? Do I have to resort > to purchasing Partition Magic or Ghost or something like that? > Do these programs even work on raw disks which have no file > system? > > --tnx > --tom > > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Apr 24 23:01:20 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 00:01:20 -0400 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? In-Reply-To: <00c601c6681a$d7513660$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200604250319.XAA15005@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <00c601c6681a$d7513660$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200604250001.20905.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 24 April 2006 23:46, Jay West wrote: > Richard wrote.... > > >> However, its my understanding that you could use the terminal > >> server "in reverse" to connect from the TCP/IP enabled machine to > >> a port on the terminal server and from there talk to the RS-232 > >> style monitor port on an older machine like some S-100 bus based > >> machine. > > To which Der Mouse replied... > > > This depends on the terminal server. Some of them do this > > ("reverse telnet", I think at least one of them calls it); others > > don't. If this is what you want, you need to be careful when > > looking at terminal servers to make sure you get one that can do > > it. > > Exactly my point... which is why I said " *GENERALLY* terminal > servers aren't the right tool for this", and instead said the data > pbx was. Richard keeps saying 'terminal server', but all he specifies > makes me think he wants the data pbx instead. Actually, I think that you can do this fairly readily with Xyplex Maxserver 16xx's, or any DECserver that does reverse LAT. Perhaps, a pair of DS500s or DS550s. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Apr 24 23:00:58 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 00:00:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <200604250403.AAA23932@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I have a pair of IDE hard drives and I want to do a raw copy from one > to the other. I've tried a couple of different approaches so far > without much luck. > My first experiment was with linux where I created a PC linux boot CD > and hooked my two drives up planning to just dd from one drive's raw > device to the other. [...trouble...] Can't help here; I don't know Linux. > My second attempt was with a NetBSD 3.0 install CD, exiting to the > shell and trying dd from rwd0a to rwd1a. I know that back in the > dark ages, this was possible, but apparently in these modern times > things have changed. When I try to do this I receive a read only > error on the /dev/rwd1a device. This is because the partition table you have on wd1 makes wd1a contain the disk label; it's refusing to let you casually overwrite the label. You can avoid this by using wd0d and wd1d, assuming you want to copy the whole disk, or by using disklabel -W to enable overwriting the label on wd1. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 24 23:08:45 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:08:45 -0600 Subject: NAPLPS (was: DEC Gigi terminal) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:09:49 -0700. <200604242009490932.974927C2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200604242009490932.974927C2 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Believe it or not, the Fortune Systems terminal supported NAPLPS--that and > its cousin, Videotex. I still have the standard docs in my files. OK, I don't know what the "Fortune Systems terminal" is, but being a freak about terminals I want to know! Do tell? >From what I could find on google it looks like they were satellite workstations for the Fortune 32:16? That looks like a pretty cool micro for 1982. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From derschjo at pilot.msu.edu Mon Apr 24 23:10:59 2006 From: derschjo at pilot.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:10:59 -0700 Subject: Looking for working DEC M8357 (RX8E) Message-ID: <444DA153.7050704@pilot.msu.edu> I'm trying to get my PDP-8/e running a "real" OS (as opposed to loading programs one at a time from papertape). I've had an RX02 drive (supposedly working) in my possession for some time, and I just need to find a working M8357 to seal the deal. I currently have a non-functional M8357 -- I get an error code from the dirxac diagnostic that translates to "Unexpected Transfer Request Flag." I'm not much of a hardware hacker, unfortunately, so I'm in no position to debug/repair the board. If anyone out there has an M8357 they're willing to part with, or has the ability to repair these things, please let me know. Thanks! Josh From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 24 23:12:27 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:12:27 -0600 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:46:31 -0500. <00c601c6681a$d7513660$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: In article <00c601c6681a$d7513660$6800a8c0 at HPLAPTOP>, "Jay West" writes: > Exactly my point... which is why I said " *GENERALLY* terminal servers > aren't the right tool for this", and instead said the data pbx was. Richard > keeps saying 'terminal server', but all he specifies makes me think he wants > the data pbx instead. Reverse console is not something for which I have an immediate need. Something that gangs up a gaggle of serial devices into TCP/IP traffic to my VAXserver 4000/300 is something I could use right now :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From drb at msu.edu Mon Apr 24 23:23:18 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 00:23:18 -0400 Subject: Prime 2550 in the UK In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:49:05 CDT.) <00d701c6681b$33822250$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00d701c6681b$33822250$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <000c01c66809$e4e8bc50$6500a8c0@BILLING><200604250219.k3P2JOdO029630@yagi.h-net.msu.edu><009b01c66811$6681c070$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <2789adda0604241954y7e1ceee6rc10ee3be29119832@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200604250423.k3P4NI7M001789@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I'm quite sure that the 2550's I installed were running rel 19. Wonder > of the 2550 has a PT200 terminal to go with :) What was the console > command to boot from cartridge tape... BOOT 14114 or something > like that? Or a PST100, its predecessor. That stands for Pretty Sh*tty Terminal, by the way. Hope no Primates are here who will be offended. Boot 14114 was a disk boot, something like first partition, first drive, first controller. Boot parameters ending in 5 were tape boots, so 15, 505, etc. De From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 24 23:26:39 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:26:39 -0700 Subject: NAPLPS (was: DEC Gigi terminal) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604242126390197.978F7BED@10.0.0.252> On 4/24/2006 at 10:08 PM Richard wrote: OK, I don't know what the "Fortune Systems terminal" is, but being a >freak about terminals I want to know! Do tell? > >>From what I could find on google it looks like they were satellite >workstations for the Fortune 32:16? That looks like a pretty cool >micro for 1982. Yeah, the subject of FS came up a few months ago. I wrote the firmware for their B&W terminal, which is where the NAPLPS and Videotex memories come from. FS had decent enough hardware but a very screwy and hostile method of deploying software. It was their undoing. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 24 23:39:44 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 00:39:44 -0400 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <200604242333.44873.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20060425031654.IAFW20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200604242333.44873.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <444DA810.7070403@mdrconsult.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > They've got an x86 emulator in the BIOS, so you can use a PC PCI video > card, have on-board IDE and floppy interfaces (the IDE is really slow). > They can netboot from either Tulip-chipset cards, or Intel eepro 100 > nics (if you have a new enough firmware). They can also boot off an > NCR/SYM53C875 chipset or Adaptec AHA2940 SCSI card (those are the only > ones I've tried). With the appropriate video card (and there are several PC video cards that work) and a Qlogic ISP1040 it'll also run VMS. Patrick put it mildly - there are no words for the performance of the CMD640 IDE chipset. You *really* want fast SCSI to make it sing. Other than the IDE, it's a sweet board. > It should also be able to do a serial console - try hooking something up > to the first serial port (9600-8-n-1), and see if you get a response. You can set the console from SMS/ARCBIOS, but IIRC if there's no keyboard plugged in it'll come up to serial console automagically. Doc From rollerton at gmail.com Mon Apr 24 23:41:44 2006 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 23:41:44 -0500 Subject: Prime 2550 in the UK In-Reply-To: <200604250346.k3P3km5h000502@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <000c01c66809$e4e8bc50$6500a8c0@BILLING> <200604250219.k3P2JOdO029630@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <009b01c66811$6681c070$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200604250346.k3P3km5h000502@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <2789adda0604242141i5ad5927bl16fb0a2a842ea109@mail.gmail.com> If I recall DOS was the single user OS they picked up from the government (MIT & NASA?). The multi-user version of it was Primos III for the Prime 300, and then Primos IV was the breakthru with big virtual memory space and a lot of other advanced (for then) and Multics derived features. On 4/24/06, Dennis Boone wrote: > > Also, I wouldn't think the OS tapes for the 2550 would work on the > > 750 which is a much older system. But, I really don't know! > > There were not, during the period I worked on Primes, variants for > different hardware. Once Primos started supporting a new type of > hardware, it rarely stopped -- backwards compatibility was one of > the albatrossen which sank the company, IMHO. Even the hardware had > the disease. How many architectures do you know of which had working > support for 7 or 8 completely different addressing models, complete > with the predictable effects on the assembler language? The machines > I worked on in the mid-late 80s still had 16S mode support, which if I > understand correctly, was essentially the architecture Prime inherited > from the old H316/516 machines used in the early Internet IMPs. > > There are older machines which were NOT 50-series hardware, which ran > some older ancestral version than the Primos IV which ran on the -50s. > But Primos IV for 50 series should run on virtually anything from a > 250 on up. > > Those tapes should work just fine on a 750, if they're readable at all. > > De > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 24 23:54:25 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:54:25 -0600 Subject: NAPLPS (was: DEC Gigi terminal) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:26:39 -0700. <200604242126390197.978F7BED@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200604242126390197.978F7BED at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 4/24/2006 at 10:08 PM Richard wrote: > > OK, I don't know what the "Fortune Systems terminal" is, but being a > >freak about terminals I want to know! Do tell? > > > >>From what I could find on google it looks like they were satellite > >workstations for the Fortune 32:16? That looks like a pretty cool > >micro for 1982. > > Yeah, the subject of FS came up a few months ago. I wrote the firmware for > their B&W terminal, which is where the NAPLPS and Videotex memories come > from. FS had decent enough hardware but a very screwy and hostile method > of deploying software. It was their undoing. What was the microprocessor in the terminal? Do you still have one? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Tue Apr 25 00:21:03 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 00:21:03 -0500 Subject: raw disk copying? Message-ID: <5f0ca977260a4f20a9b194d2f62be109@valleyimplants.com> Never used it yet, but there is a program (G4U) that is based on NetBSD and (is rumored to) perform arbitrary drive cloning. Not sure what hardware platforms it runs on. From useddec at aol.com Sat Apr 22 20:21:43 2006 From: useddec at aol.com (useddec at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 21:21:43 -0400 Subject: As is terminals and monitors Message-ID: <8C8348B6A45F8E9-1994-63D1@MBLK-M31.sysops.aol.com> The following is a list of as is monitors and terminals. Great for spare parts or repairs. Some are 20+ years old, some are newer. If you have any interest, please feel free to make offers on any pieces you want. Please reply to me off list- useddec at aol.com Thanks, Paul As/Is MonitorsQTYDescription PCXBU-YA 1 PCXBV-BC 1 VR150-AA 3 VR160-DA 1 VR241 3 VR260 3 VR262 2 VR299-DA 1 VR319-DA 1 VRC16 1 VRC21 7 VRC21-HA 4 VRC21-WA 1 VRT17-HA 4 VRTX7-KA 1 VT220-B 1 VT330-J2 1 VT420 1 VT420-C2 1 VT510-C4 1 VT520 2 MITSUBISHI AUM1371A 1 WYSE WY150 3 WYSE WY325 1 WYSE WY85 1 WYSE WY185 1 From chandrashekar at mainimail.com Sun Apr 23 06:15:59 2006 From: chandrashekar at mainimail.com (chandrasheaker) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 16:45:59 +0530 Subject: paper tape reader/punch (N4000) info Message-ID: please send N4000 operator manual. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 23 19:00:17 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 17:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need help identifying... Message-ID: <20060424000017.90057.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> ...beige (off white) TRS-80 model 4, 3 floppy drives, amber monitor, silver plate under reset button that says Stevens 128k. Some passer by suggested it had something to do with a technical college in Hoboken, NJ, another meanderer said they only used DECs and such. All 3 floppies were scanned for a boot floppy apparently (blink...blink...blink). Pristine condition. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From kossow at computerhistory.org Mon Apr 24 18:10:42 2006 From: kossow at computerhistory.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:10:42 -0700 Subject: Prime 2250 in the UK Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8800968650 Hopefully someone nearby can save this. As someone has pointed out, this machine really needs to be saved. It is a pretty large system, and may have the sources for Salford University's FTN77 compiler on the backup tapes. From chandrashekar at mainimail.com Tue Apr 25 00:25:04 2006 From: chandrashekar at mainimail.com (chandrasheaker) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:55:04 +0530 Subject: facit N4000 OPERATORS manual Message-ID: PLEASE CAN YOU SEND THE FACIT N4000 OPERATORS MANUAL BY EMAIL. WITH REGARDS, CHANDRA SEKHARA RAO. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 23 19:17:10 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 17:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: help...early Zenith multisyncer refusing to sync Message-ID: <20060424001710.599.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> dont have the model number handy, was the first unit to sport a flat screen (but my SX-64 has a pretty flat screen...hmmmm. Perhaps the curvature is more pronounced on larger tubes, making teensy weensy ones seem flatter). Plugged in a VGA signal...ewwww. What a mess. Not likely Id simply find a toasted cap I bet. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Useddec at aol.com Sun Apr 23 20:38:33 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 21:38:33 EDT Subject: As is monitors and terminals Message-ID: <3a3.17cd18d.317d8619@aol.com> The following is a list of as is monitors and terminals that are for sale or trade. Please feel free to send any offers or questions to me off list or contact me at 217-586-5361 between 10am and midnight central time (out from 9 to 10:15 PM). All are located in Illinois. I also have some working units and parts. Thanks, Paul As/Is Monitors 4-23-06 Part Number QTY Description PCXBU-YA 1 PCXBV-BC 1 VR150-AA 5 VR160-DA 2 VR201 1 VR201A 2 VT240 Bases 4 For 201/240?s VR241 3 VR260 3 VR262 2 VR299-DA 1 VR319-DA 1 VRC16 1 VRC21 7 VRC21-HA 4 VRC21-WA 1 VRT17-HA 4 VRTX7-KA 1 VT220-B 1 VT330-J2 1 VT420 2 VT420-C2 1 VT420-D6 2 VT510 1 VT510-C4 1 VT520 2 VT/78 with MR78 2 Video Data Processor WT/78 1 Word Processor MITSUBISHI AUM1371A 1 WYSE WY55 1 WYSE WY150 3 WYSE WY325 1 WYSE WY85 1 WYSE WY185 1 Xerox N39 1 From Useddec at aol.com Sun Apr 23 20:42:55 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 21:42:55 EDT Subject: As is test equipment Message-ID: <284.9428967.317d871f@aol.com> The following is a list of as is test equipment that is for sale or trade. Please feel free to send any offers or questions to me off list or contact me at 217-586-5361 between 10am and midnight central time (out from 9 to 10:15 PM). All are located in Illinois. Thanks, Paul Test Equipment AS/IS 4-23-06 Brand Part Number QTY Description HP 8407A w/ 8412A 1 Network Analyzer Phase Magnitude Display HP Model 400C 1 HP 8170A 1 Logic Pattern Generation HP 608D 1 VHF Signal Analyzer HP 1630G 2 Logic Analyzer w/ some probes HP 4951A 1 Protocol Analyzer Lear Siegler 7652? 1 Digital Multimeter General Radio 1217C w/ type 1201C 1 Unit Pulse Generator Power Supply Nicolet 206 w/D3 1 2 Storage Scope Amps Rockland 752A 1 Programmable Elliptic Filter Biomation 8200 w/ 8100-D 1 Wave Form Recorder Digital Logic Recorder Fluke 6160B 1 Frequency Synthesizer Hitachi V550V 1 Scope Tektronix 7704A 1 Scope (no plug ins) Tektronix 4110 1 Series Tablet Interface Tektronix 4510 1 Graphics Rasterizer Tektronix 564 w/ 3A1 w/ 3B3 1 Storage Scope Dual Trace Amp Time Base Tektronix 611 1 Storage Display Unit Tektronix Type W 1 Plug in Tektronix 7704A w/ 7826 w/ 7B85 w/ 7B80 1 2 1 1 Dual Trace Amps (1 w/ broken knobs) Delaying Time Place Time Base Tektronix 2465 1 500 MHz Tektronix 7603 w/ 7L14 1 Scope Spectrum Analyzer Tektronix 7603 w/ 7D01 w/ D41 1 Scope (2 broken knobs) Logic Analyzer (1 broken knob) Display Formatter ____________________________________ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 23 23:03:15 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 21:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need info on an HP 8-bit scsi card Message-ID: <20060424040315.1352.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> has an NCR 53c400 chip, an als245, and not much else. 4 dip swiches, presumably (hopefully) for setting the id. I have plans for this bad boy... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Useddec at aol.com Mon Apr 24 02:06:02 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 03:06:02 EDT Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <3a2.1825d79.317dd2da@aol.com> The following is a list of as is monitors and terminals that are for sale or trade. Most are 10-20 years old, and probably have shorted caps in the power supply. I don't have the time to play with them now, but they would be great projects or spare parts units. Any cannibals out there? Please feel free to send any offers or questions to me off list or contact me at 217-586-5361 between 10 AM and midnight central time (out from 9 to 10:15 PM). All are located in Illinois. I also have some working units also, and parts as well as most of the VT100 family. Thanks, Paul As/Is Monitors 4-23-06 Part Number QTY Description PCXBU-YA 1 PCXBV-BC 1 VR150-AA 5 VR160-DA 2 VR201 untested 1 VR201A untested 2 VT240 Bases 4 For 201/241?s VR241 3 VR260 3 VR262 2 VR299-DA 1 VR319-DA 1 VRC16 1 VRC21 7 VRC21-HA 4 VRC21-WA 1 VRT17-HA 4 VRTX7-KA 1 VT220-B 1 VT330-J2 1 VT420 2 VT420-C2 1 VT420-D6 2 VT510 1 VT510-C4 1 VT520 2 VT/78 with MR78 untested 2 Video Data Processor WT/78 untested 1 Word Processor MITSUBISHI AUM1371A 1 WYSE WY55 1 WYSE WY150 3 WYSE WY325 1 WYSE WY85 1 WYSE WY185 1 Xerox N39 1 From Useddec at aol.com Mon Apr 24 02:12:23 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 03:12:23 EDT Subject: As is test equipment Message-ID: <3f0.11502d.317dd457@aol.com> I've seen a lot of talk about test equipment here, and thought this may be of interest to some of you. The following is a list of as is test equipment that is for sale or trade. Please feel free to send any offers or questions to me off list or contact me at 217-586-5361 between 10 AM and midnight central time (out from 9 to 10:15 PM). All are located in Illinois. Thanks, Paul Test Equipment AS/IS 4-23-06 Brand Part Number QTY Description HP 8407A w/ 8412A 1 Network Analyzer Phase Magnitude Display HP Model 400C 1 HP 8170A 1 Logic Pattern Generation HP 608D 1 VHF Signal Analyzer HP 1630G 2 Logic Analyzer w/ some probes HP 4951A 1 Protocol Analyzer Lear Siegler 7652? 1 Digital Multimeter General Radio 1217C w/ type 1201C 1 Unit Pulse Generator Power Supply Nicolet 206 w/D3 1 2 Storage Scope Amps Rockland 752A 1 Programmable Elliptic Filter Biomation 8200 w/ 8100-D 1 Wave Form Recorder Digital Logic Recorder Fluke 6160B 1 Frequency Synthesizer Hitachi V550V 1 Scope Tektronix 7704A 1 Scope (no plug ins) Tektronix 4110 1 Series Tablet Interface Tektronix 4510 1 Graphics Rasterizer Tektronix 564 w/ 3A1 w/ 3B3 1 Storage Scope Dual Trace Amp Time Base Tektronix 611 1 Storage Display Unit Tektronix Type W 1 Plug in Tektronix 7704A w/ 7826 w/ 7B85 w/ 7B80 1 2 1 1 Dual Trace Amps (1 w/ broken knobs) Delaying Time Place Time Base Tektronix 2465 1 500 MHz Tektronix 7603 w/ 7L14 1 Scope Spectrum Analyzer Tektronix 7603 w/ 7D01 w/ D41 1 Scope (2 broken knobs) Logic Analyzer (1 broken knob) Display Formatter ____________________________________ From Useddec at aol.com Mon Apr 24 02:31:00 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 03:31:00 EDT Subject: Fwd: As is test equipment Message-ID: <296.986dd63.317dd8b4@aol.com> From Useddec at aol.com Mon Apr 24 02:32:21 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 03:32:21 EDT Subject: as is monitors and terminals Message-ID: <3e2.2bb733.317dd905@aol.com> From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Apr 24 12:27:52 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 13:27:52 -0400 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? Message-ID: <01C667A3.01DF9D40@MSE_D03> How about a single port terminal server or a PC running TS software connected to one of the ports of an RS232 PBX; that should give pretty well any connection option. Local computers, terminals & printers could talk to each other and also have access to the net. mike ----------------Original Message: Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:46:31 -0500 From: "Jay West" Subject: Re: anyone have a terminal server? Richard wrote.... >> However, its my understanding that you could use the terminal server >> "in reverse" to connect from the TCP/IP enabled machine to a port on >> the terminal server and from there talk to the RS-232 style monitor >> port on an older machine like some S-100 bus based machine. To which Der Mouse replied... > This depends on the terminal server. Some of them do this ("reverse > telnet", I think at least one of them calls it); others don't. If this > is what you want, you need to be careful when looking at terminal > servers to make sure you get one that can do it. Exactly my point... which is why I said " *GENERALLY* terminal servers aren't the right tool for this", and instead said the data pbx was. Richard keeps saying 'terminal server', but all he specifies makes me think he wants the data pbx instead. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 25 00:40:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:40:19 -0700 Subject: NAPLPS (was: DEC Gigi terminal) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604242240190363.97D2ED61@10.0.0.252> On 4/24/2006 at 10:54 PM Richard wrote: >What was the microprocessor in the terminal? Z80 (4 MHz, I think, but not sure) I still have the prototype PCB, but not the monitor or the keyboard--and the code, and the schematics, etc. I remember coding an escape sequence that would allow it to download executable code into RAM and jump to it--it was intended for running production line Q&A. Nowadays, that little "feature" would be known as a "security hole". Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 25 00:42:48 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic gaming, sort of Message-ID: <200604250542.k3P5gmH9013672@floodgap.com> With all the discussions about Zork ... http://www.homestarrunner.com/dman3.html -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Police To Begin Campaign To Run Down Jaywalkers ------------- From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 24 15:51:45 2006 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (a.carlini at ntlworld.com) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:51:45 +0100 Subject: DUNGEON In-Reply-To: <444D25E3.6070000@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <006001c667e0$e731e5a0$c901a8c0@tempname> Johnny Billquist wrote: > A person at DEC managed to get the hands on the sources of ZORK. This > person then did an implementation in FORTRAN, based on the MDL > sources. This is the "paranoid DEC engineer who prefers to remain > anonymous". "the paranoid engineer" came out later on though - are we not allowed to speak his name? Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 24 16:09:31 2006 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (a.carlini at ntlworld.com) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:09:31 +0100 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? In-Reply-To: <02cf01c667e2$8b637a20$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <006101c667e3$628fb4a0$c901a8c0@tempname> Jay West wrote: > But... if you are wanting to hook up terminals to a host computer > that DOES have an ethernet port and speaks TCP/IP (which rules out > most of the stuff in my collection anyways), then you're right, a > terminal server is what you want. The later DEC terminal servers (many of them, at least) could be used several ways. They could provide a "network-accessible" RS232 interface that you could plug into your machine's serial port, so you could connect to a machine's console or to a printer or such like. Or you could plug your terminal into a terminal server port and talk to any ethernet-capable machine that spoke the relevant protocols (LAT or telnet). Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From steerex at mindspring.com Fri Apr 21 12:39:20 2006 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 13:39:20 -0400 Subject: HP 2397A color terminal manuals? Message-ID: <01C66548.FF524430@MAGGIE> I have the: "HP23973 / HP2397A Graphics Terminals User's and Reference Manuals. It includes 02397-90001 & 2397-90002 and is about 2 1/2 inches thick. It is in the original HP binder and is in EXCELLENT condition. You can have it for $10.00 plus shipping from North Carolina. If you're interested, contact me off list at: steerex[at]mindspring[dot]com See ya. SteveRob ---------- From: Richard Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 9:42 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: HP 2397A color terminal manuals? BitSavers doesn't have it and neither does the HP museum. Anyone got a manual set for the HP 2397A color terminal? Documentation Supplied: HP 2397A User's Manual (02397-90001) HP 2397A Reference Manual (02397-90002) Documentation Available: HP 2397A Service Manual (02393-90003) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From Glen.Heiberg at gijima.com Tue Apr 25 01:58:13 2006 From: Glen.Heiberg at gijima.com (Glen Heiberg) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 08:58:13 +0200 Subject: need info on an HP 8-bit scsi card Message-ID: <831434B713AA43429AF3F3EE801F38B204C306@rst-exc06.za.astgroup.com> __________________________________________________ From: Chris M Subject: need info on an HP 8-bit scsi card To: tech has an NCR 53c400 chip, an als245, and not much else. 4 dip swiches, presumably (hopefully) for setting the id. I have plans for this bad boy... __________________________________________________ Does it have a DB25 female connector at the back? If so, its probably a SCSI adapter for one of the older HP Scanjets like the 4C. Glen. ______________________________________________ "This email is subject to our email legal notice, to view follow this link ' http://www.gijima.com/other/gijima_disclaimer.html ' To receive the legal notice as a PDF document, send an email to 'service.desk at gijima.com' From elf at ucsd.edu Tue Apr 25 02:44:47 2006 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric F.) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 00:44:47 -0700 Subject: DUNGEON In-Reply-To: <200604250150.k3P1oLqC027926@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604250150.k3P1oLqC027926@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060425003200.027df980@popmail.ucsd.edu> Johhny Billquist wrote: > First there was ZORK. That's it, just ZORK. No numbers, > no nothing. This program was written in MDL and ran on > PDP-10 systems only. MDL is a Lisp-like language implemented > at MIT. You're probably out of luck if you ever want to > play the original ZORK on anything but a PDP-10. Actually, I saw (and used) the original ZORK running on an SDS (later XDS) Sigma 7 computer (the actual ARPAnet machine name was MIT-DMS). And, if I'm not mistaken, I believe it was originally developed on this machine (though I could be off on this fact). I actually visited the famed 9th floor of 545 Tech. Square at MIT way back in the early 80s and saw the beast. (Still have my MDL programming manual around too...) --Eric F. (proud owner of an SDS-940 console, Sigma 9 console (wired up to show off all 100+ Blinkenlights!), and lots of other assorted SDS/XDS swag.) From elf at ucsd.edu Tue Apr 25 02:54:35 2006 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric F.) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 00:54:35 -0700 Subject: DUNGEON In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20060425003200.027df980@popmail.ucsd.edu> References: <200604250150.k3P1oLqC027926@dewey.classiccmp.org> <6.1.2.0.2.20060425003200.027df980@popmail.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060425005333.027c8860@popmail.ucsd.edu> Eric F. wrote: > Actually, I saw (and used) the original ZORK running on an SDS > (later XDS) Sigma 7 computer (the actual ARPAnet machine name > was MIT-DMS). Apparently I fired off my original reply prematurely. The original MIT machine running ZORK (MIT-DMS) was, in fact, a PDP-10. But I'm quite sure that one of the other machines back there (i.e., MIT-AI, MIT-MC, or MIT-ML) was an SDS Sigma machine (or even an SDS-940). Sorry for my mis-informed post. :0 -Eric F. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 25 02:57:32 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 01:57:32 -0600 Subject: NAPLPS (was: DEC Gigi terminal) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:40:19 -0700. <200604242240190363.97D2ED61@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200604242240190363.97D2ED61 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 4/24/2006 at 10:54 PM Richard wrote: > > >What was the microprocessor in the terminal? > > Z80 (4 MHz, I think, but not sure) > > I still have the prototype PCB, but not the monitor or the keyboard--and > the code, and the schematics, etc. I remember coding an escape sequence > that would allow it to download executable code into RAM and jump to it--it > was intended for running production line Q&A. Nowadays, that little > "feature" would be known as a "security hole". Did you code in an easter egg with your initials? :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Apr 25 03:27:55 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:27:55 +0200 Subject: Zemu, was VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem References: <200604242158.k3OLwUlR024889@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200E7@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I used SIMH 3.52 (current) with RT11 from the SIMH distribution. The boot from RL gives the id-line "RT-11XM (S) V05.03" I *had* on my disk a version of Zemu which was zipped 340k and the ZEMU.DOC file had a date (in the text) of 2001. I say "had", because I downloaded a newer version. This zip file is 350k and the text in the .DOC file says 2003. I got it from http://64.253.97.239/pdp11/pdp11.htm but that links to ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/zemu.tar Which is (I believe) the site of Johnny, the writer/maintainer of Zemu. If I can not build Zemu (in RT11) because my version is too old, can somebody build Zemu for me? Just Zemu.SAV is enough (I assume). If you have the files from the .tar you can use PUTR to get it into the RT11 environment, and then do .IND ZEMU.CMD [ hush-hush: I newer version of RT11 would do too :-) ] - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Zane H. Healy Verzonden: ma 24-04-2006 23:58 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: Zemu, was VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem > I tried the latest Zemu (2003) to compile under RT11XM. > I don't know how to capture the command file result output in the CMD box, > except by making a screen shot, converting it to .gif, but I can not send > that to the CC list ... > I get 3 errors from ZIO and 19 errors from ZMEM. > They all seem to have a problem with an operand field construction #^X82,R1 > or #^0E,-(SP). And in ZRT I get a .LIBRARY /SY:SYSTEM.MLB/ file error. > I seem to remember that these were exactly the problems I had back then. > It loks I am still stuck ... What version of RT-11 are you trying to build it on? The error in ZRT seems to indicate you're building it on to old of a version. Where can the latest Zemu source be found? Zane This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Apr 25 03:45:02 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:45:02 +0200 Subject: VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem In-Reply-To: <200604250150.k3P1oLqP027926@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604250150.k3P1oLqP027926@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <444DE18E.7020203@update.uu.se> "Jim Beacon" wrote: > > for anyone that's following this thread, I've tried this version: > > http://vms.tuwien.ac.at/freewarev40/000000/ > > and can't get it to work. > > The straight download has an error in one of the .DAT files, and the zipped > version has incorrect references in the executable :( That's the FORTRAN version. There are a couple of "problems". The DTEXT.DAT file is a fixed record size file. That will not transfer well over http, or most ftp programs. In VMS, you could (if you transferred the file in binary) probably do a SET FILE to change the attributes after transfer. Let me know if you need more info here. As for problems with the zipped version, I have no clues... But all you would need from the ZIP-archive is the DAT-files (which might be restored correctly from there), and then you can use whatever .EXE file you might find. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Apr 25 03:52:46 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:52:46 +0200 Subject: DUNGEON In-Reply-To: <200604250150.k3P1oLqP027926@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604250150.k3P1oLqP027926@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <444DE35E.2050204@update.uu.se> David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 24 Apr 2006, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >>> People have been bouncing ZORK, DUNGEON and Infocom around a while now. > > > IIRC, Zork was released in three parts parts because home computers at the > time could not handle a game the size of MDL Zork. True in a way. The game was split up because it was too large. It was also reimplemented because MDL didn't exist for home computers, and that language in it self required too much resources and in general required too much of the computer. A big breakthrough was when they decided, and managed to pull off the Z-machine. You can all read about this at the http://www.csd.uwo.ca/Infocom/ website. Lots of articles and interviews with the original implementors. >> And ZEMU *should* work on RT-11. I have a suspicion that maybe one or >> two routines might be missing. If they are, it will takes us close to >> zero time to fix it, if just someone with RT-11 steps up to the plate. >> I don't have any RT-11 systems, nor much RT-11 knowledge myself. I can >> write some code, but I definitely can't test it. > > > If you can compile straight ANSI C on RT-11, you can use Dumb Frotz there. > The result won't have screen handling, but it'll run most any Z-machine > program out there. Implementing screen-handling for an RT-11 version of > Frotz shouldn't be very hard. In your dreams. :-) First of all, I suspect that dumb Frotz still would get into major problems with the small address space of a PDP-11. Second, Frotz makes some assumptions about file handling that just isn't true on all non-Unix systems. And screen handling is a story of it's own. But people are welcome to try. Heck, I can even offer an RSX machine if someone wants to take a shot at it there, with an ANSI C compiler... It would be interesting to watch, at least. People often just don't understand how much Unix-specific stuff is going on in the code. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Apr 25 04:03:08 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:03:08 +0200 Subject: DUNGEON In-Reply-To: <200604250150.k3P1oLqP027926@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604250150.k3P1oLqP027926@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <444DE5CC.4020705@update.uu.se> "Gooijen, Henk" wrote: > OK, I am a bit biased about information in wiki. > I prefer to believe that Johnny has it correct, and then wiki. > I will look up the notes of my previous Zemu attempt > and set up RT11 in SIMH. Thanks for the vote of confidence. :-) I checked out the Wiki information, and it's very good in this case. But it says more or less exactly the same as I wrote. But it gives some more details (hence more words...) :-) Johnny ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens John Foust Verzonden: ma 24-04-2006 21:45 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: DUNGEON At 02:24 PM 4/24/2006, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>People have been bouncing ZORK, DUNGEON and Infocom around a while now. >>Let's clear this up once and for all (I hope). I didn't hunt for inconsistencies, but there's plenty of detail at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zork http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossal_Cave_Adventure - John -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Apr 25 04:07:56 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:07:56 +0200 Subject: Zemu, was VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem In-Reply-To: <200604250150.k3P1oLqP027926@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604250150.k3P1oLqP027926@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <444DE6EC.8040705@update.uu.se> "Gooijen, Henk" wrote: > I tried the latest Zemu (2003) to compile under RT11XM. > I don't know how to capture the command file result output in the CMD box, > except by making a screen shot, converting it to .gif, but I can not send > that to the CC list ... > I get 3 errors from ZIO and 19 errors from ZMEM. > They all seem to have a problem with an operand field construction #^X82,R1 > or #^0E,-(SP). And in ZRT I get a .LIBRARY /SY:SYSTEM.MLB/ file error. > I seem to remember that these were exactly the problems I had back then. > It loks I am still stuck ... Ooo. Okay... Two problems. The first one is easy. You're just using an old enough version of MACRO-11 that it don't understand hex values. ^Xnn just means hexadecimal. Convert to octal and replace, and that problem is solved. You know: #^X0E -> #16 The second problem, the SYSTEM.MLB is harder for me to tell. Try to just comment the line away, and see what (if any) errors you get. This is code Megan wrote, so it's a bit more unfamiliar to me. But all it is, is just macro definitions that (I guess) more recent versions of RT-11 provide for you. If we just locate those macro calls, we can either write the macros directly into the code, or perhaps live without them, instead. This shouldn't be hard to fix really. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Apr 25 04:11:20 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:11:20 +0200 Subject: Zemu, was VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem In-Reply-To: <200604250150.k3P1oLqP027926@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604250150.k3P1oLqP027926@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <444DE7B8.1050201@update.uu.se> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >>> I tried the latest Zemu (2003) to compile under RT11XM. >>> I don't know how to capture the command file result output in the CMD box, >>> except by making a screen shot, converting it to .gif, but I can not send >>> that to the CC list ... >>> I get 3 errors from ZIO and 19 errors from ZMEM. >>> They all seem to have a problem with an operand field construction #^X82,R1 >>> or #^0E,-(SP). And in ZRT I get a .LIBRARY /SY:SYSTEM.MLB/ file error. >>> I seem to remember that these were exactly the problems I had back then. >>> It loks I am still stuck ... > > > What version of RT-11 are you trying to build it on? The error in ZRT seems > to indicate you're building it on to old of a version. Definitely a slightly older version of RT-11. That should be dealt with, and ZEMU should be made to compile on that too. > Where can the latest Zemu source be found? ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/zemu.tar Hmm, I wonder if I might have made changes lately that aren't in there. I'll check and if neccesary, update this tar file. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Apr 25 04:19:34 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:19:34 +0200 Subject: Looking for working DEC M8357 (RX8E) In-Reply-To: <200604250634.k3P6YgqS033218@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604250634.k3P6YgqS033218@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <444DE9A6.8030903@update.uu.se> Josh Dersch wrote: > I'm trying to get my PDP-8/e running a "real" OS (as opposed to loading > programs one at a time from papertape). > > I've had an RX02 drive (supposedly working) in my possession for some > time, and I just need to find a working M8357 to seal the deal. I > currently have a non-functional M8357 -- I get an error code from the > dirxac diagnostic that translates to "Unexpected Transfer Request > Flag." I'm not much of a hardware hacker, unfortunately, so I'm in no > position to debug/repair the board. > > If anyone out there has an M8357 they're willing to part with, or has > the ability to repair these things, please let me know. > > Thanks! I could probably fix it for you. My main problem is time. How important is it? (And I'm sure there are lots of others who also could fix it.) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Apr 25 04:23:29 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:23:29 +0200 Subject: DUNGEON In-Reply-To: <200604250634.k3P6YgqS033218@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604250634.k3P6YgqS033218@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <444DEA91.2070406@update.uu.se> wrote: >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> A person at DEC managed to get the hands on the sources of ZORK. This >> person then did an implementation in FORTRAN, based on the MDL >> sources. This is the "paranoid DEC engineer who prefers to remain >> anonymous". > > >"the paranoid engineer" came out later on though - are we >not allowed to speak his name? I wasn't sure that he had come forth. But looking at more recent versions of DUNGEON, he do have his name in there, so I guess it's okay to say that it was Bob Supnik. I still kindof like that early request for anonymity, though. :-) He really was mad to decide to implement this stuff in FORTRAN. Really good work by him to pull it off... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Apr 25 04:53:06 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:53:06 +0200 Subject: Zemu, was VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem References: <200604250150.k3P1oLqP027926@dewey.classiccmp.org> <444DE6EC.8040705@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200E8@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> OK, thanks Johnny. I have a day off, but that's for working in the garden. This evening (when my back is hurting) I will change the hex values to octal. If somebody could make the SYSTEM.MLB avalilable in a .zip file, would that be sufficient to solve the second issue ? thanks, - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Johnny Billquist Verzonden: di 25-04-2006 11:07 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: RE: Zemu, was VAX ADVENTURE, was Re: RL02 problem "Gooijen, Henk" wrote: > I tried the latest Zemu (2003) to compile under RT11XM. > I don't know how to capture the command file result output in the CMD box, > except by making a screen shot, converting it to .gif, but I can not send > that to the CC list ... > I get 3 errors from ZIO and 19 errors from ZMEM. > They all seem to have a problem with an operand field construction #^X82,R1 > or #^0E,-(SP). And in ZRT I get a .LIBRARY /SY:SYSTEM.MLB/ file error. > I seem to remember that these were exactly the problems I had back then. > It loks I am still stuck ... Ooo. Okay... Two problems. The first one is easy. You're just using an old enough version of MACRO-11 that it don't understand hex values. ^Xnn just means hexadecimal. Convert to octal and replace, and that problem is solved. You know: #^X0E -> #16 The second problem, the SYSTEM.MLB is harder for me to tell. Try to just comment the line away, and see what (if any) errors you get. This is code Megan wrote, so it's a bit more unfamiliar to me. But all it is, is just macro definitions that (I guess) more recent versions of RT-11 provide for you. If we just locate those macro calls, we can either write the macros directly into the code, or perhaps live without them, instead. This shouldn't be hard to fix really. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Apr 25 06:16:39 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 04:16:39 -0700 Subject: need info on an HP 8-bit scsi card In-Reply-To: <20060424040315.1352.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060424040315.1352.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200604250416390613.06E27610@192.168.42.129> Hi, Chris, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 23-Apr-06 at 21:03 Chris M wrote: >has an NCR 53c400 chip, an als245, and not much else. >4 dip swiches, presumably (hopefully) for setting the >id. I have plans for this bad boy... I've seen plenty of these. They're very basic cards, designed as a dedicated interface for SCSI-based HP scanners. They have no BIOS or firmware, and I question if they will work with anything outside of the original HP scanner support software. I would, admittedly, be curious to know how a Windows 2000 machine reacts to the installation of such a card. I believe the 53C400 is supported, but I can't recall for certain. Happy tweaking. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Apr 25 06:26:48 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 04:26:48 -0700 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <200604250426480103.06EBBF13@192.168.42.129> Hi, Tom, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 24-Apr-06 at 22:29 Tom Uban wrote: >I have a pair of IDE hard drives and I want to do a raw copy >from one to the other. I've tried a couple of different approaches >so far without much luck. There exists dedicated software that is designed to do a bit-for-bit copy under such conditions. One of my favorites, mainly because it'll do a lot more than just copy, is SCSI Mechanic (yes, it'll work on IDE drives as well). Details on such may be found here: http://www.scsimechanic.com/ I've run it under Windows 2000 without any problems. If the OS can see the drives, SM should be able to work with them. File system and format are utterly irrelevant if you don't need to actually access the disks through Windows. Just as a recent example, I've used SM to make image file copies of the hard drives from several Telenex serial data analyzers, built in the mid-90's. They use a highly-customized Unix variant for their operating system. SM under W2K had no trouble at all creating bit-for-bit image files, or backup copies to another drive. There are other ways besides SM. I also own a dedicated hardware-level drive duplicator, and there are other software packages as well. Some examples are: http://www.drive-image.com/ http://www.acronis.com/homecomputing/products/trueimage/ (though I will freely admit I'm not a big fan of Acronis products). There is a big list of free utilities at this link: http://www.thefreecountry.com/utilities/backupandimage.shtml Happy hunting. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From uban at ubanproductions.com Tue Apr 25 07:38:43 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 07:38:43 -0500 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <200604250426480103.06EBBF13@192.168.42.129> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060425073613.02351268@mail.ubanproductions.com> Thanks for the info Bruce, I will certainly check out those various options for the next time I need to do this. Fortunately my last attempt using 'dd if=/dev/rwd0d of=/dev/rwd1d bs=64k' with a 3.0 NetBSD install IOS image CD worked well. --tom At 04:26 AM 4/25/2006 -0700, Bruce Lane wrote: >Hi, Tom, > >*********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** > >On 24-Apr-06 at 22:29 Tom Uban wrote: > > >I have a pair of IDE hard drives and I want to do a raw copy > >from one to the other. I've tried a couple of different approaches > >so far without much luck. > > > > There exists dedicated software that is designed to do a > bit-for-bit copy under such conditions. One of my favorites, mainly > because it'll do a lot more than just copy, is SCSI Mechanic (yes, it'll > work on IDE drives as well). Details on such may be found here: > http://www.scsimechanic.com/ > > I've run it under Windows 2000 without any problems. If the OS > can see the drives, SM should be able to work with them. File system and > format are utterly irrelevant if you don't need to actually access the > disks through Windows. > > Just as a recent example, I've used SM to make image file copies > of the hard drives from several Telenex serial data analyzers, built in > the mid-90's. They use a highly-customized Unix variant for their > operating system. SM under W2K had no trouble at all creating bit-for-bit > image files, or backup copies to another drive. > > There are other ways besides SM. I also own a dedicated > hardware-level drive duplicator, and there are other software packages as > well. Some examples are: > > http://www.drive-image.com/ > > http://www.acronis.com/homecomputing/products/trueimage/ (though > I will freely admit I'm not a big fan of Acronis products). > > There is a big list of free utilities at this link: > > http://www.thefreecountry.com/utilities/backupandimage.shtml > > Happy hunting. > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, >Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com >kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m >"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with >surreal ports?" From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 25 07:57:14 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 05:57:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: M4 9914 Manuals Message-ID: <20060425125714.726D01A3B5F@bitsavers.org> > The National Archives in Norway has an M4 with a full complement of > documentation. I'm sure Jay West would appreciate schematics for the 9914 if they have them. The normal service manual does not include them. From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 08:07:38 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 14:07:38 +0100 Subject: Prime 2550 in the UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a640604250607y5cbac1cdy3589e2fe40a5d53b@mail.gmail.com> On 25/04/06, Al Kossow wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8800968650 > > Hopefully someone nearby can save this. As someone has pointed > out, this machine really needs to be saved. It is a pretty large > system, and may have the sources for Salford University's FTN77 > compiler on the backup tapes. > > > > I will try and get this. I can get to manchester quite easily. I just hope the price doesn't go crazy. Dan From drb at msu.edu Tue Apr 25 08:13:50 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:13:50 -0400 Subject: Prime 2550 in the UK In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 23:41:44 CDT.) <2789adda0604242141i5ad5927bl16fb0a2a842ea109@mail.gmail.com> References: <2789adda0604242141i5ad5927bl16fb0a2a842ea109@mail.gmail.com> <000c01c66809$e4e8bc50$6500a8c0@BILLING> <200604250219.k3P2JOdO029630@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <009b01c66811$6681c070$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200604250346.k3P3km5h000502@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200604251313.k3PDDoKu016422@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > If I recall DOS was the single user OS they picked up from the > government (MIT & NASA?). The multi-user version of it was Primos > III for the Prime 300, and then Primos IV was the breakthru with > big virtual memory space and a lot of other advanced (for then) > and Multics derived features. The story is supposedly that DOS, later called Primos II, was written over a Memorial Day weekend in 1968 by Bill Poduska because they were tired of rewinding the FORTRAN compiler paper tapes. He figured they'd never finish developing a timesharing OS if they had to keep doing that. The FORTRAN compiler was inherited from a contractor who wrote it for NASA. A lot of software was written on government contract, or inherited from same, so the software ended up being public domain. De From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 25 09:30:58 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:30:58 Subject: Tektronix PEP301 mystery resolved In-Reply-To: <200604250318.XAA14983@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060425093058.0fa736e6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:11 PM 4/24/06 -0400, der Mouse wrote: >>> IMO You're MUCH better off with the PC! You have a good display, > >*snerk* You need a C&C warning on things like that! > >Good display? The platform that drove XFree86's madness? Where you >*can't* just have a memory-mapped framebuffer? Where the situation is >so chaotic that user-land programs are doing their own bus enumeration >(!!) to deal with the mess?? Where half the displays available don't >even have documentation!? > >I'm used to Suns. You start X, it maps the framebuffer and it all Just >Works. It's not software subtrefuge, either; I've looked at all the >relevant code, clear from building my own ddx layer in the X server all >the way to the mmap routine in the driver, and it really is as simple >as it sounds. I've tried on two different occasions to get X working >on peecee-family hardware, and the best I ever managed was 320x200. > >>> a real keyboard > >Where did you find a real keyboard for a peecee? Or did you just do >the level-shifter thing and hang the real keyboard off a serial port? OK now go back and put the rest of the message back in. The part where we were talking about a Tektronix 4041 and weather to use it's "display" and "keyboard" or to use a PC as a terminal for it. Then go take a look at * so that you'll know what the hell you're talking about! You obviously have never used a Tektronix 4041! It has a single line LED display and a FEW keys on the front panel and that's it. No a PC isn't a CAD system with oddles of display memory, frame buffers and a touch type keyboard but it still beats the hell of what the 4041 uses! FWIW yes there was a "real" programmer's keyboard that was made for the 4041. But try to find one!! I had one, I took me about five years of dedicated searching to find it. I'd be willing to bet that no one on the list has one. They are SCARCE! A friend of mine is a real Tektronix collector and has probably 25 4041s but even he didn't have a keyboard till I gave him mine. *The display is hard to read in the picture ut it says "VER. 2.0 MEM-512K ". That's about the limit of what the display is capable of. Joe From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 25 08:40:15 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 08:40:15 -0500 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060425073613.02351268@mail.ubanproductions.com > References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20060425073613.02351268@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060425083718.04f547f0@mail> Someone mentioned g4u: http://www.feyrer.de/g4u/ It's a boot floppy / CD. It can send images via ftp across a network if you like, or it can copy to local drives. - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 09:08:56 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 02:08:56 +1200 Subject: DUNGEON In-Reply-To: <444D25E3.6070000@update.uu.se> References: <200604241700.k3OGxbvx023254@dewey.classiccmp.org> <444D25E3.6070000@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On 4/25/06, Johnny Billquist wrote: > People have been bouncing ZORK, DUNGEON and Infocom around a while now. > > Let's clear this up once and for all (I hope). > > First there was ZORK.... in MDL and ran on PDP-10 systems only. . . . > You're probably out of luck if you ever want to play the original ZORK on > anything but a PDP-10. Zork is included on the klh10 "Panda" distribution (along with TOPS-20), if you want to try out the original and you don't happen to have a 36-bit computer in the back room. > So, this leaves us with two ZORK, and one DUNGEON. Are they the same? > No. But they all originated in the MDL ZORK. > ZORK I was a reimplementation by the same persons who wrote MDL ZORK. > New language, new parser, some new stuff, some stuff from MDL ZORK cut > out, and probably some improvements as well. > DUNGEON was a reimplementation from a version of the MDL ZORK, but > written in FORTRAN. This wasn't even from the final version of the MDL > ZORK. However, new stuff in the MDL code somehow usually got implemented > in the FORTRAN version as well a bit later. And "ZDungeon" is my direct translation of the MDL sources (copyright 1978, 1979, MIT, FWIW) to Inform. The only time I referenced Bob Supnik's FORTRAN version or the C code descended from that was to track down *exactly* what order the Thief traverses the rooms (working with Bob Supnik and Dave Lebling to verify how the original code did it - it does a simple list traversal, but the room list happens to be in the reverse order that they appear in the code). > Infocom only released ZORK I as a commercial product for the PDP-11. > ZORK II and ZORK III never was. And if I remember correctly, they only > released a version for RT-11 on one 8" floppy. I saw Planetfall on the peg at the local DEC store c. 1983 (same format... RT-11, 8" floppy). -ethan From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Tue Apr 25 09:58:25 2006 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:58:25 -0400 Subject: NAPLPS (was: DEC Gigi terminal) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060424222327.05c22e38@mail> References: <200604242009490932.974927C2@10.0.0.252> <6.2.3.4.2.20060424222327.05c22e38@mail> Message-ID: <449662F3-6829-4D84-A8EE-CF3168298440@mind-to-mind.com> On Apr 24, 2006, at 11:25 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 10:09 PM 4/24/2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Believe it or not, the Fortune Systems terminal supported NAPLPS-- >> that and >> its cousin, Videotex. I still have the standard docs in my files. NAPLPS is a registered character set for the IETF (believe it or not). http://rfc.net/rfc965.html http://rfc.net/rfc1345.html From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 25 11:27:08 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:27:08 -0700 Subject: NAPLPS (was: DEC Gigi terminal) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604250927080191.9A2319AF@10.0.0.252> On 4/25/2006 at 1:57 AM Richard wrote: >Did you code in an easter egg with your initials? :) I guess I'm from the old school. A customer hires you to do something, you do it without making it personal. Your name or initials in the source code of course, but never in the object. That vanity stuff is adolescent and just not professional. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 25 11:33:08 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:33:08 -0600 Subject: Tektronix PEP301 mystery resolved In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:30:58. <3.0.6.16.20060425093058.0fa736e6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: In article <3.0.6.16.20060425093058.0fa736e6 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com>, "Joe R." writes: > FWIW yes there was a "real" programmer's keyboard that was made for the > 4041. But try to find one!! I had one, I took me about five years of > dedicated searching to find it. I'd be willing to bet that no one on the > list has one. They are SCARCE! A friend of mine is a real Tektronix > collector and has probably 25 4041s but even he didn't have a keyboard till > I gave him mine. Heh heh... I figured as much. That dev keyboard lookd pretty funky too! All kinds of application-specific keys, obviously custom built for Tektronix and probably the rarest piece of 4041 accoutrements that you could get. It looks to me like most people used the serial port with a terminal for programming. That's what *I* was planning on doing to play with the 4041. For my purposes of data interchange, the PEP301 is probably a better match since it is a PC. I have ISA NICs for which I could probably locate drivers so that I could exchange data over the net with it. > *The display is hard to read in the picture ut it says "VER. 2.0 MEM-512K > ". That's about the limit of what the display is capable of. How's your DC100 tape drive in your unit? I haven't tested mine yet, but since its NIB I have high hopes. I definately will need to probe the rubber capstan wheels :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Apr 25 11:41:44 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:41:44 -0700 Subject: DUNGEON In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200E5@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <200604241700.k3OGxbvx023254@dewey.classiccmp.org> <444D25E3.6070000@update.uu.se> <6.2.3.4.2.20060424144317.100a5cb8@mail> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200E5@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: On 4/24/06, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > OK, I am a bit biased about information in wiki. If anyone finds any information in the wikipedia that is incorrect they should correct it. That's the point of the wikipedia. There are lots of people here that have first hand knowledge of classic hardware and software. If the wiki is wrong, please fix it or it will stay wrong. > I prefer to believe that Johnny has it correct, and then wiki. Then Johnny should correct the wiki. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Apr 25 11:41:44 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:41:44 -0700 Subject: DUNGEON In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200E5@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <200604241700.k3OGxbvx023254@dewey.classiccmp.org> <444D25E3.6070000@update.uu.se> <6.2.3.4.2.20060424144317.100a5cb8@mail> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200E5@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: On 4/24/06, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > OK, I am a bit biased about information in wiki. If anyone finds any information in the wikipedia that is incorrect they should correct it. That's the point of the wikipedia. There are lots of people here that have first hand knowledge of classic hardware and software. If the wiki is wrong, please fix it or it will stay wrong. > I prefer to believe that Johnny has it correct, and then wiki. Then Johnny should correct the wiki. From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Apr 25 12:27:25 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 19:27:25 +0200 Subject: DUNGEON In-Reply-To: <200604251700.k3PH05oZ040556@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604251700.k3PH05oZ040556@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <444E5BFD.9030609@update.uu.se> "Eric F." wrote: > Eric F. wrote: > > > Actually, I saw (and used) the original ZORK running on an SDS > > (later XDS) Sigma 7 computer (the actual ARPAnet machine name > > was MIT-DMS). > > Apparently I fired off my original reply prematurely. The original MIT > machine running ZORK (MIT-DMS) was, in fact, a PDP-10. But I'm quite sure > that one of the other machines back there (i.e., MIT-AI, MIT-MC, or MIT-ML) > was an SDS Sigma machine (or even an SDS-940). > > Sorry for my mis-informed post. :0 I had an account on MIT-AI, and that was definitely a PDP-10. I'm very sure that MIT-MC also was a PDP-10. MIT-ML however I don't know about. As for ZORK, it was definitely written on a PDP-10. Infocom rented time on a PDP-10 for quite a while. I know I've also seen mentioned somewhere at one time that they even had their own -2020 for a while, but I'm not sure I remember correctly. If ZORK were ever to run on any other machine that machine first and foremost would have to have MDL. You know if SDS had that? Second, ZORK used a lot of memory. Unless the OS supported virtual memory, and a fairly large address space, that would also stop it. Appearantly ZORK on the PDP-10 needed over 600K to run (if that is bytes or 36-bit words I don't know, but I suspect bytes). Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Apr 25 12:30:09 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:30:09 -0700 Subject: NAPLPS In-Reply-To: <444D94E6.80607@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <444D94E6.80607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 4/24/06, woodelf wrote: > Speaking of serial graphics protocols, does anyone on the list have a > device that supports NAPLPS ("nap-lips" - North American Presentation > Layer Protocol Syntax)? Well, any computer that talked to Prodigy before it became "just another ISP" was a NAPLPS device. Having lived with early (1200bps) web connectivity, I used to strongly wish NAPLPS (or some other vector drawing) capability had been built into Mosaic (or HTML for that matter). Receiving large line drawings or block graphics as interlaced GIFs was painful. From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Apr 25 12:30:52 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 19:30:52 +0200 Subject: Zemu In-Reply-To: <200604251700.k3PH05oZ040556@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604251700.k3PH05oZ040556@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <444E5CCC.4040001@update.uu.se> "Gooijen, Henk" wrote: > OK, thanks Johnny. > I have a day off, but that's for working in the garden. > This evening (when my back is hurting) I will change the hex values to octal. That should fix the first problem, and that should be easy... > If somebody could make the SYSTEM.MLB avalilable in a .zip file, would that > be sufficient to solve the second issue ? Might. I don't know what macros are used, and what they do. Remember, I don't really know RT-11. But, like I said, it might be that just commenting that line out, and see what macros fail will give you enough clues to what is missing that you can either safely remove that, or write those macros on your own. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Apr 25 12:33:11 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DUNGEON In-Reply-To: <444E5BFD.9030609@update.uu.se> References: <200604251700.k3PH05oZ040556@dewey.classiccmp.org> <444E5BFD.9030609@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Apr 2006, Johnny Billquist wrote: > If ZORK were ever to run on any other machine that machine first and > foremost would have to have MDL. You know if SDS had that? > Second, ZORK used a lot of memory. Unless the OS supported virtual > memory, and a fairly large address space, that would also stop it. > Appearantly ZORK on the PDP-10 needed over 600K to run (if that is bytes > or 36-bit words I don't know, but I suspect bytes). FWIW, there exists in the Z-machine spec a setting which indicates on what machine the interpreter is running. Depending on that setting, the game may behave differently. There was a setting for the PDP-10 (called DECsystem 10). -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Apr 25 12:54:27 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 13:54:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: NAPLPS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060425175428.04D0F57877@mail.wordstock.com> > > On 4/24/06, woodelf wrote: > > > Speaking of serial graphics protocols, does anyone on the list have a > > device that supports NAPLPS ("nap-lips" - North American Presentation > > Layer Protocol Syntax)? > > > Well, any computer that talked to Prodigy before it became "just > another ISP" was a NAPLPS device. Having lived with early (1200bps) > web connectivity, I used to strongly wish NAPLPS (or some other vector > drawing) capability had been built into Mosaic (or HTML for that > matter). Receiving large line drawings or block graphics as > interlaced GIFs was painful. > Was this in any way related to RIP graphics being used by some BBS's in the Amiga days? Cheers, Bryan From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 25 13:03:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 12:03:43 -0600 Subject: NAPLPS In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 25 Apr 2006 13:54:27 -0400. <20060425175428.04D0F57877@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: In article <20060425175428.04D0F57877 at mail.wordstock.com>, bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) writes: > Was this in any way related to RIP graphics being used by > some BBS's in the Amiga days? Only conceptually. The protocol itself doesn't share any similatiries AFAIK. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 25 12:44:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 18:44:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: need help identifying... In-Reply-To: <20060424000017.90057.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Apr 23, 6 05:00:17 pm Message-ID: > > ...beige (off white) TRS-80 model 4, 3 floppy drives, I am not sure what you're asking. All original M4's had a white case (You could upgrad an M3 to an M4 by replacing the keyboard and CPU board, in that case (!) you ended up with a grey machine). All M4 disk controllers (AFAIK) support 4 drives. To have 3 internal drives is unusual, but possible. The 'stock' configuration was up to 2 full-height drives internally-mounted, and 2 externals. > amber monitor, silver plate under reset button that An amber monitor is uncommon, but not that uncommon. Original M4s had a green CRT, M3s that were covnerted kept the white CRT. But there was at least one company advertising in Byte and/or 80micro that sold an amber CRT that would drop right in. > says Stevens 128k. Some passer by suggested it had I asusme that's 128K RAM. Radio Shack supplied 128K machines and upgrade kits, but there were 3rd party ones too (The official price was high, to say the least -- the kit consisted of 8 64K bit RAMs and a PAL chip IIRC). Maybe some 3rd party kits came iwth an ID button that mentioned the vendor's name > something to do with a technical college in Hoboken, > NJ, another meanderer said they only used DECs and > such. All 3 floppies were scanned for a boot floppy > apparently (blink...blink...blink). Pristine condition. Are you sure? I thought M4s only checked drive 0 for a boot disk (but once booted, they will look for a given file on each drive in turn unless you specifiy a drive). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 25 12:48:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 18:48:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Prime 2550 in the UK In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Apr 24, 6 05:38:28 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > Al Kossow writes: > > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8800968650 > > If ever there was a machine that screamed "Tony Duel", this is it :-). There are just 2 major problems... 1) I have no space (certainly not for 3 racks). Darn it, I still can't open the front door properly here because I've not found a space for the HP9817 system I bought a few weeks back. 2) It's in Manchester, I'm in Lodnon. And I have no transport. It's not the sort of thing you can take on a train... There's also the minor problem of 'too many machines, not enough time' here ;-) > > Tony, you won't need to anguish about board swapping with this one, > considering the rarity :). You think I ever worry about that? Darn it, I'll spend time fixing a board, even if I know I have a good spare and know where it is... -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 25 13:29:39 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Zemu In-Reply-To: <444E5CCC.4040001@update.uu.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at Apr 25, 2006 07:30:52 PM Message-ID: <200604251829.k3PITdsm018126@onyx.spiritone.com> > > If somebody could make the SYSTEM.MLB avalilable in a .zip file, > would that > > be sufficient to solve the second issue ? > > Might. I don't know what macros are used, and what they do. > Remember, I don't really know RT-11. > But, like I said, it might be that just commenting that line out, and > see what macros fail will give you enough clues to what is missing that > you can either safely remove that, or write those macros on your own. I don't believe SYSTEM.MLB can be used on prior versions. What is the best way these days to get the Zemu source into SIMH? I can probably find time to take a look using SIMH way before I can find the time to look at it using my PDP-11/73 running RT-11 (which includes TCP/IP). Zane From dave at mitton.com Tue Apr 25 13:46:19 2006 From: dave at mitton.com (David Mitton) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 13:46:19 -0500 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? - Xyplex, Xylogics, and DEC history Message-ID: <20060425184619.2BC1B1099B3@ws6-4.us4.outblaze.com> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: cctech-request at classiccmp.org > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 32, Issue 48 > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 06:17:52 -0500 (CDT) ... > Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 23:42:16 -0400 > From: Patrick Finnegan > Subject: Re: anyone have a terminal server? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <200604242342.16528.pat at computer-refuge.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-6" > > On Sunday 23 April 2006 14:47, Richard wrote: > > I see that DEC has had a line of terminal servers. They look like > > they would do the job (my needs are more along the lines of > > connectivity rather than fancy features like 3270 support). > > > > Reading around on the net indicates that Xylogics had a good line of > > terminal servers, but that the similarly named Xyplex had buggy > > product. > > I've never heard anything all that good from people that have used > Xylogics Annex boxes. > > At work, we use a whole bunch of Xyplex Maxserver 1640s for console > servers, and they Just Work.. They're a direct descendant of DECservers > (from what I understand, DEC sold off the line to Xyplex). > > Pat > -- Pat, your understanding is incorrect. Xyplex was founded by 3 ex-DECies as a terminal server company before Digital had established the LAN DECserver and LAT. One of the founders was the author of the CTERM protocol and witnessed the debacle of the Mercury terminal server. (but I digress) Their initial designs used proprietary LAN media and protocols. Their later products used more commodized technology of the times. I don't know the 'rep of their product. But the company was very successful for awhile but was later acquired by Raetheon and then traded around the aerospace/computer industry before disappearing. Xylogics had been in business for many years doing various computer related things, including peripherals and disk drives, before acquiring the rights to the "Annex" product line from a third party. The products were based on a proprietary Unix kernel and spoke telnet, PPP, and LAT and other things. I was instrumental in getting them to implement RADIUS. In 1996 they were accquired by Bay Networks where they continued to produce terminal server products (5399 blade system) until the merger with Nortel. I'm not sure what happened to the IPR of the Annex, I believe it was sold to another company. The former DEC terminal server line was spun off to Cabletron, and the remains live in Enterasys. I attempted to assertain whom owns the rights to LAT last year (as a reference in RFC 4005 Diameter NAS Application) and got a murky answer. The last vendor selling code (Meridian) went out-of-business a few years back. Dave Mitton. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Apr 25 14:03:51 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:03:51 +0200 Subject: Zemu References: <200604251829.k3PITdsm018126@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200EE@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Bummer, if SYSTEM.MLB can not be used :-( This is what I did (if that was clever, I don't know, but it worked). Unzip the zemu.tar to a new folder, IIRC that is 21 files. Then I used PUTR to create an RX02 disk container, and copied the files into it. However I failed to get the DY accessible in SIMH, so I started again. Now I used PUTR to create a disk container for an RL02 and copied the files. I started SIMH, mounted the RT11 RL02 pack and the RL02 pack with Zemu, and copied them to the RT11 pack. Then I started the build. These are the commands I used in a CMD (DOS) box. PUTR set copy binary format zemu.dsk /rl02 /rt11 y or give a volume ID mount dl0: zemu.dsk /rl02 /rt11 cd copy *.* dl0: dismount dl0: quit Now you have an RL02 disk container with the Zemu files in it. Start SIMH, and before you boot enter on the SIMH prompt set rl1 rl02 att rl1 zemu.dsk set rl0 rl02 att rl0 rt11.dsk boot rl .copy dl1:*.* dl0: (now the zemu files are on the RT11 pack) .ind zemu.cmd (starts the zemu build) hope this is clear, - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Zane H. Healy Verzonden: di 25-04-2006 20:29 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: Zemu > > If somebody could make the SYSTEM.MLB avalilable in a .zip file, > would that > > be sufficient to solve the second issue ? > > Might. I don't know what macros are used, and what they do. > Remember, I don't really know RT-11. > But, like I said, it might be that just commenting that line out, and > see what macros fail will give you enough clues to what is missing that > you can either safely remove that, or write those macros on your own. I don't believe SYSTEM.MLB can be used on prior versions. What is the best way these days to get the Zemu source into SIMH? I can probably find time to take a look using SIMH way before I can find the time to look at it using my PDP-11/73 running RT-11 (which includes TCP/IP). Zane This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 25 14:24:22 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 12:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need help identifying... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060425122256.G59583@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 25 Apr 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > > ...beige (off white) TRS-80 model 4, 3 floppy drives, > I am not sure what you're asking. All original M4's had a white case (You > could upgrad an M3 to an M4 by replacing the keyboard and CPU board, in > that case (!) you ended up with a grey machine). One of our college administrators did that with the machines in one of our labs. It was slightly more expensive than adding that many M4s would have been. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 16:36:27 2006 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 14:36:27 -0700 Subject: Cyberentics ASP?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060424112126.3bcf8d5e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060424112126.3bcf8d5e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90604251436g144349aej959adf7027a4a89@mail.gmail.com> Attached Storage Appliance? http://www.cybernetics.com/backup_solutions/lto/d05_lto_tape.htm On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 11:21:26, Joe R. wrote: > I went scrounging this weekend and one of the things that I found was a > Cyberentics ASP. It's a chrome and black rack mount chassis with dual 2GHz > AMD Athlon MP processors, 256 Mb of DDR memory, a DriveOnModule that plugs > into the IDE port and emulates a 32Mb disk drive (has linux installed), TWO > Symbios LVD/SE SCSI cards and two large IBM Ultrim LTO tape drives. No > other drives installed (or even a place to mount them) except the two tape > drives and the Drive On Module. NO video card installed but it has two LCD > displays on the front panel. > > What have I got here? > > Joe > > From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 25 17:46:28 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 16:46:28 -0600 Subject: SAGE film 1956 Message-ID: Lots of nice shots of the equipment... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 25 18:59:37 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 16:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Zemu In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200EE@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Apr 25, 2006 09:03:51 PM Message-ID: <200604252359.k3PNxbsU027032@onyx.spiritone.com> > Then I used PUTR to create an RX02 disk container, and copied the files into it. > However I failed to get the DY accessible in SIMH, so I started again. > Now I used PUTR to create a disk container for an RL02 and copied the files. > I started SIMH, mounted the RT11 RL02 pack and the RL02 pack with Zemu, > and copied them to the RT11 pack. > Then I started the build. These are the commands I used in a CMD (DOS) box. > PUTR > set copy binary > format zemu.dsk /rl02 /rt11 Rats, I was afraid that PUTR was still the only way to do this. Can you email me a copy of zemu.dsk? I don't currently have a system setup that will run PUTR. I can at least see if it will still build under RT-11 5.7. While I was working on learning MACRO-11 a few years ago, real life stepped in, so I doubt I can do much in the way of fixing actual problems. Zane From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Apr 25 19:15:51 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 20:15:51 -0400 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:29:36 CDT." <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <200604260015.k3Q0Fpgs006816@mwave.heeltoe.com> Tom Uban wrote: >To my amazement, I discovered >that linux does not have a raw disk I/O capability by default. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, but if you met me at a cocktail party I'd bet you a steak dinner that it did, in fact, have raw i/o and dd should work to copy from one drive to another. There are issues with ide disks, of course, and what "raw i/o" means. Others here can, I'm sure, speak more cogently but the issue surrounds what linux things block "n" and how that maps to a particular cylinder/head/sector on the disk and if linear block addressing is used or not. But with care you can certainly dd one disk to another. I've done it many times. You can also dd one disk to a file. I do that all the time. And then I dd it back to a disk of the same type and it works fine. >I tried using the block devices, but the resulting copy was >not intact. I don't know what "not intact" means. You may have not use the "whole disk" raw device. If you used a partition device you won't get the whole disk. It depend on what version of the kernel you used. 2.2? 2.4? 2.6? typically something like "/dev/hda" or "/dev/hdb" will give you the whole disk. >After doing a bit of searching, I discovered that >there is some sort of rawio extension which allows a raw device >to be associated with a block device, but it also said that dd >would not work with this raw device due to buffer alignment >issues vs. DMA. Go figure... rawio is something else. >My second attempt was with a NetBSD 3.0 install CD, exiting to >the shell and trying dd from rwd0a to rwd1a. I know that back >in the dark ages, this was possible, but apparently in these >modern times things have changed. When I try to do this I receive >a read only error on the /dev/rwd1a device you're using a parition device again. you got the raw character device "rxxx" but wd1a is not the whole disk. I'm guessing but I bet /dev/rwd1 might be. -brad From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Apr 25 19:36:41 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 19:36:41 -0500 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <444EC099.8040303@brutman.com> Tom Uban wrote: > I have a pair of IDE hard drives and I want to do a raw copy > from one to the other. I've tried a couple of different approaches > so far without much luck. > > My first experiment was with linux where I created a PC linux > boot CD and hooked my two drives up planning to just dd from > one drive's raw device to the other. To my amazement, I discovered > that linux does not have a raw disk I/O capability by default. > I tried using the block devices, but the resulting copy was > not intact. After doing a bit of searching, I discovered that > there is some sort of rawio extension which allows a raw device > to be associated with a block device, but it also said that dd > would not work with this raw device due to buffer alignment > issues vs. DMA. Go figure... I missed something here .. why didn't dd work for you? I've always used something like dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb bs=512. Why is raw disk I/O capability needed? (Shouldn't the built-in support to read and write blocks be enough?) Mike From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Apr 25 19:38:33 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 20:38:33 -0400 Subject: DUNGEON In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 25 Apr 2006 00:54:35 PDT." <6.1.2.0.2.20060425005333.027c8860@popmail.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <200604260038.k3Q0cXE8007817@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Eric F." wrote: >But I'm quite sure that one of the other machines back there (i.e., MIT-AI, >MIT-MC, or MIT-ML) >was an SDS Sigma machine (or even an SDS-940). Sorry, those were all pdp-10's. I have some html with an attempt at a partial lineage of the MIT '10s if anyone is interested. (sound of papers rustling... ah yes, here...) ... 
    

  • AI-KA       ITS, KA-10      1971-1983                       7-trk, 800bpi

  • ML-KA       ITS, KA-10      1973-1983 (MathLab)

  • DM-KA       ITS, KA-10      1976-1983 (Dynamod)             9-trk, 800bpi

  • MC-KL       ITS, KL-10      1976-1986 (Macsyma Consortium)  7-trk, 1600bpi

  • XX          TWENEX, KL-10   1979-1989                       9-trk, 1600bpi

  • OZ          TWENEX, KL-10   1982-1988 (replaced AI as main system) 6250

  • MX-KL       ITS             1986      (MC-KL renamed)       9-trk, 6250bpi

  • AI-KS       ITS             1985-1990                       9-trk, 6250bpi

  • MC-KS       ITS             1986-1990                       9-trk, 6250bpi

  • ML-KS       ITS             1986-1989                       9-trk, 6250bpi

  • MD-KS       ITS             1986-1988                       9-trk, 6250bpi
... KA, KL & KS are various models of pdp-10's (my apologies to fell '10 lovers. that description does not do justice to the differences). I thought the MDL sources were available on the net. The mdl compiler was harder to find. I thought I found one for ITS at one point. Never tried it however. ITS is easy to run on the 10 emulators. fast too. -brad From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue Apr 25 21:09:53 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C. H. Dickman) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 22:09:53 -0400 Subject: teledisk files Message-ID: <444ED671.3060006@nktelco.net> How do I convert a teledisk image to something useful to me without having the hardware? I have some images of decus DM-101 that are in teledisk format. I want to get the contents onto my PDP-8/e. I understand that teledisk saves a lot of meta-data about the disk image... but I don't think I need that. All I want is the data. decus DM-101 on paper tape would be fine with me... an EPIC tape would be much better... and a simh disk image would be the greatest... -chuck From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Tue Apr 25 21:12:20 2006 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 19:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OSI Addition to collection Message-ID: <20060426021220.92030.qmail@web81004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received a nice addition to the collection today. An OSI Challenger 2P with a monitor and a LOT of cassette software. The really nice part for me was the ton of documentation, newsletters and books that came with it! Ok it isn't really a ton but it sure felt like it when I carried it in from the car. Now to spend time sorting and cataloging everything and checking out the system. Add the issues of the TRS-80 newsletter and Softside I received the day before and it's been a fun week. ----- David Williams http://www.trailingedge.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 25 21:33:14 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 03:33:14 +0100 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <444EC099.8040303@brutman.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <444EC099.8040303@brutman.com> Message-ID: <444EDBEA.9000307@yahoo.co.uk> Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> My first experiment was with linux where I created a PC linux >> boot CD and hooked my two drives up planning to just dd from >> one drive's raw device to the other. To my amazement, I discovered >> that linux does not have a raw disk I/O capability by default. >> I tried using the block devices, but the resulting copy was >> not intact. After doing a bit of searching, I discovered that >> there is some sort of rawio extension which allows a raw device >> to be associated with a block device, but it also said that dd >> would not work with this raw device due to buffer alignment >> issues vs. DMA. Go figure... > > I missed something here .. why didn't dd work for you? That was my initial thought, that I must be missing something - but I guess the original poster is trying to copy across non-identical drives, with filesystems containing data which addresses the disk by something other than linear blocks. I'm betting then that a raw copy wouldn't work because the target drive's geometry is totally different. To identical drives, *or* when the copied data is a filesystem that addresses by linear block from the start of the filesystem, I can't see any reason why dd won't work. cheers Jules From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 25 22:15:14 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 23:15:14 -0400 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <444EDBEA.9000307@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <444EC099.8040303@brutman.com> <444EDBEA.9000307@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <444EE5C2.9080808@mdrconsult.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Michael B. Brutman wrote: > >>> My first experiment was with linux where I created a PC linux >>> boot CD and hooked my two drives up planning to just dd from >>> one drive's raw device to the other. To my amazement, I discovered >>> that linux does not have a raw disk I/O capability by default. >>> I tried using the block devices, but the resulting copy was >>> not intact. After doing a bit of searching, I discovered that >>> there is some sort of rawio extension which allows a raw device >>> to be associated with a block device, but it also said that dd >>> would not work with this raw device due to buffer alignment >>> issues vs. DMA. Go figure... >> >> >> I missed something here .. why didn't dd work for you? > > > That was my initial thought, that I must be missing something - but I > guess the original poster is trying to copy across non-identical drives, > with filesystems containing data which addresses the disk by something > other than linear blocks. I'm betting then that a raw copy wouldn't work > because the target drive's geometry is totally different. > > To identical drives, *or* when the copied data is a filesystem that > addresses by linear block from the start of the filesystem, I can't see > any reason why dd won't work. Simply put, Linux (well, all the common Linux filesystems) wants a partition to end on a cylinder boundary. Two drives of different geometries, even if they're the same size, will have differing block counts per cylinder. That means that if I do a block-level dd to a disk with different geometry from the source disk, the data will be valid, but the partitions will probably not end on cylinder boundaries and the filesystems will forever be inconsistent as far as the kernel and fsck are concerned. Doc From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 25 22:28:28 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 22:28:28 -0500 Subject: $BOUNTY$ VM/SP rel 5 manual Message-ID: <00ab01c668e1$7e131d30$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Looking for the "IBM VM/SP rel 5 Planning and System Generation Guide". The VM/370 rel 6 equivalent is online at bitsavers, but I need the VM/SP rel 5 version. Thanks! Jay West From grooveomatic at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 23:24:02 2006 From: grooveomatic at gmail.com (Andrew Berg) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 00:24:02 -0400 Subject: FA (Sheepishly promoting) Mark-8 Message-ID: Hello all! It's been a long time since I've stopped by to post... I monitor CCTalk every now and then, but haven't posted in a long time. I just thought I might send a quick message to say that my poor Mark-8 is headed to the great ebay in the sky. I am too poor to keep him any longer and I know somebody will end up enjoying it more than I'm able to at the moment. 8799174918 on ebay if anyone might be interested. I apologize hugely in advance if this is verboten; I didn't know who to ask if it was OK! The old FAQ seemed to mention that it was OK, but the old FAQ also said that it was not to be looked at. :) Bryan Blackburn has helped me out a lot over the past few days - thank you! :) Best regards, Andy From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 00:11:38 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 17:11:38 +1200 Subject: DEC Gigi terminal In-Reply-To: <200604250102.k3P12FoI029551@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200604250102.k3P12FoI029551@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 4/25/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Warning, I don't think that this is something you're going to use without > a system like a VAX-11/780 to connect it to. There were quite a few programs written for the GIGI in the TOPS-20 world. > As I recall it was connected > to the controller board in the VAX via a fibre optic cable. I don't recall any terminal that was optically coupled to a host controller board. My recollection is that the GIGI is an 8085-based character/ReGIS graphics terminal with an ordinary serial port. -ethan From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Apr 26 01:21:43 2006 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 08:21:43 +0200 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <444EE5C2.9080808@mdrconsult.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <444EC099.8040303@brutman.com> <444EDBEA.9000307@yahoo.co.uk> <444EE5C2.9080808@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20060426062143.GN25520@lug-owl.de> On Tue, 2006-04-25 23:15:14 -0400, Doc Shipley wrote: > Simply put, Linux (well, all the common Linux filesystems) wants a > partition to end on a cylinder boundary. Two drives of different > geometries, even if they're the same size, will have differing block > counts per cylinder. These days are gone. Long gone. The C/H/S layout of a disk isn't meaningful since years. In early days, these represented physical characteristics of a disk; operating systems had been programmed to use these directly. As a result, eg. the well-known DOSsish partition table evolved, that encoded the partition layout in C/H/S terms. Disks got larger, which typically involved the cylinder count to rise up. Unfortunately, the partition table as well as the ABI to the disk controllers at that time only had 9 bits (1024 values, 0..1023) to encode cylinder count, so something new had to be implemented. That was when actually two things were done: the controllers _internally_ started to not use C/H/S geometry to access the drive, but linear addresses. (So all C/H/S values are converted to linear addresses irrelevant of the operating system's access mode.) Additional to that, fake plattern were simulated: there were 6 bits (64 values, 0..63) reserved for heads, but no real disk would ever use 64 heads (famous last words...) So "newer" drives scaled their size by claiming to have more hads than there are in reality, with the result that the C/H/S addressing a "legacy" operating system is using doesn't match the physical layout anymore. Linux doesn't use the C/H/S values internally anymore, except for reporting these legacy settings to the user once they're read out from the drive. (Though, these values don't make much sense anyway.) There is, unfortunately, one point in the boot-up phase where they are still used: that's when the BIOS reads the partition sector (which also contains the very first modifyable boot code). For legacy issues, the partition table still contains C/H/S addresses and the BIOS honors them. This is why, on "real" PeeCees, you'd keep your boot partition below 8GB: 1024 Cylinders * 64 Heads * 256 Sectors * 512 Bytes. [Note that there are bugs in many early BIOSes that will crash with accesses beyond typically at limits beyond 2GB, 1GB or even 512MB.) This basically means that all data the PC needs to start up (kernel, boot code, extended partition table, initial ramdisk) needs to be within the 8GB addressable limit. (To make things even worse, many today's BIOSes implement non-standard extensions to allow access to the full size of today's disks. This means that a disk which used to work (as in: boot) in one machine won't neccessarily boot in a different box.) > That means that if I do a block-level dd to a disk with different > geometry from the source disk, the data will be valid, but the > partitions will probably not end on cylinder boundaries and the > filesystems will forever be inconsistent as far as the kernel and fsck > are concerned. The cylinder boundary is only a legacy thing. With today's linear addresses, that's no problem. Indeed, it's only needed due to DOS bugs. A PeeCee'ish partition table allows partition boundaries not matching a cylinder boundary, but DOS won't probably be happy with it. Eg. if you use some Linuxish fdisk variant, they'll probably allow you to create such partitions and possibly warn about them. A different C/H/S layout (for disks of otherwise the same size) will only matter in the boot-up phase, IFF the BIOS doesn't implement extensions to just ignore the whole C/H/S stuff and use linear addresses. For a real operating system (which uses it's own drivers and not the BIOS callbacks), this doesn't matter at all. And finally, people realized that the C/H/S layout is overcome: There's a new standard (though not yet really implemented beyond the scope of some Itanium or i386 Apple machines) called EFI (Extended Firmware Interface) that fixes a lot of old time's shortcomings. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Apr 26 01:59:33 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 02:59:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <20060426062143.GN25520@lug-owl.de> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <444EC099.8040303@brutman.com> <444EDBEA.9000307@yahoo.co.uk> <444EE5C2.9080808@mdrconsult.com> <20060426062143.GN25520@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <200604260702.DAA12500@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [Note that there are bugs in many early BIOSes that will crash with > accesses beyond typically at limits beyond 2GB, 1GB or even 512MB.) Sometimes even worse than that. I have one machine that apparently simply won't work if a disk over some size (64G? I don't know the exact limit) is touched by the BIOS - it wedges. But if I tell the BIOS there's nothing there and let the OS kernel find it, it works fine. (I remarked on this to a vendor I know who told me my motherboard was so old it wasn't surprising it wasn't comptaible with newer disks. Gee, it was all of what, three years old. Oh well, another reason - as if I needed more! - to avoid peecees.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Apr 26 02:14:28 2006 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 09:14:28 +0200 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <200604260702.DAA12500@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <444EC099.8040303@brutman.com> <444EDBEA.9000307@yahoo.co.uk> <444EE5C2.9080808@mdrconsult.com> <20060426062143.GN25520@lug-owl.de> <200604260702.DAA12500@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20060426071428.GO25520@lug-owl.de> On Wed, 2006-04-26 02:59:33 -0400, der Mouse wrote: > > [Note that there are bugs in many early BIOSes that will crash with > > accesses beyond typically at limits beyond 2GB, 1GB or even 512MB.) > > Sometimes even worse than that. I have one machine that apparently > simply won't work if a disk over some size (64G? I don't know the exact > limit) is touched by the BIOS - it wedges. But if I tell the BIOS > there's nothing there and let the OS kernel find it, it works fine. (I > remarked on this to a vendor I know who told me my motherboard was so > old it wasn't surprising it wasn't comptaible with newer disks. Gee, > it was all of what, three years old. Oh well, another reason - as if I > needed more! - to avoid peecees.) Jeah, a true and known story. I faced that several times, too. The usual advise is to switch off the disk in BIOS's configuration menus, but that only works as long as you don't need to boot off that disk. Also some BIOSes in about the 1998 probe _all_ disks, even if they're configured off, to display the vendor/model name. That'll crash some mainboards, too :-( MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Apr 26 03:26:28 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 10:26:28 +0200 Subject: Zemu Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816C9@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I corrected ZIO and ZMEM, and they compile without errors, as expected. Then I removed the "LIBRARY SYSTEM.MLB" line in ZRT.MAC ... I get 65 errors, starting with MCALL undefines. Is it possible that Megan can change this to support the RT11 version that comes with SIMH (v5.3) ? (The changes required in ZIO and ZMEM are simple). - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist > Sent: dinsdag 25 april 2006 19:31 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Zemu > > "Gooijen, Henk" wrote: > > > OK, thanks Johnny. > > I have a day off, but that's for working in the garden. > > This evening (when my back is hurting) I will change the > > hex values to octal. > > That should fix the first problem, and that should be easy... > > > If somebody could make the SYSTEM.MLB avalilable in a .zip > file, would that > be sufficient to solve the second issue ? > > Might. I don't know what macros are used, and what they do. > Remember, I don't really know RT-11. > But, like I said, it might be that just commenting that line > out, and see what macros fail will give you enough clues to > what is missing that you can either safely remove that, or > write those macros on your own. > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From cc at corti-net.de Wed Apr 26 03:44:49 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 10:44:49 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DUNGEON In-Reply-To: <444DE35E.2050204@update.uu.se> References: <200604250150.k3P1oLqP027926@dewey.classiccmp.org> <444DE35E.2050204@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Apr 2006, Johnny Billquist wrote: > But people are welcome to try. Heck, I can even offer an RSX machine if > someone wants to take a shot at it there, with an ANSI C compiler... > It would be interesting to watch, at least. People often just don't > understand how much Unix-specific stuff is going on in the code. And I have a version for the IBM 5110 (needs 5114 floppy drive). I took the source from the InfoTaskForce interpreter (C code from 1992) which is easily ported to whatever machine you may have. Its features are simplicity and portable virtual memory/swapping routines. The 5110 version is written in assembler, of course. It needs at least 32kB RWS (maybe it will run in only 16kB but I haven't tried), the more RWS you have the less paging will be needed during the game. I've tried it with Zork I to III, Enchanter and the Hitchhiker's Guide. Christian From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Apr 26 03:51:24 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 10:51:24 +0200 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <20060426105124.386e54f4@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:29:36 -0500 Tom Uban wrote: > My second attempt was with a NetBSD 3.0 install CD, exiting to > the shell and trying dd from rwd0a to rwd1a. rwd0a is a partition. You have to use rwd0d for the whole disk. (On non-i386 machines you have to use rwd0c.) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Apr 26 03:54:08 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 10:54:08 +0200 Subject: DUNGEON In-Reply-To: <200604260722.k3Q7LjYX047349@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604260722.k3Q7LjYX047349@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <444F3530.7080602@update.uu.se> David Griffith wrote: >> If ZORK were ever to run on any other machine that machine first and >> foremost would have to have MDL. You know if SDS had that? >> Second, ZORK used a lot of memory. Unless the OS supported virtual >> memory, and a fairly large address space, that would also stop it. >> Appearantly ZORK on the PDP-10 needed over 600K to run (if that is bytes >> or 36-bit words I don't know, but I suspect bytes). > > > FWIW, there exists in the Z-machine spec a setting which indicates on what > machine the interpreter is running. Depending on that setting, the game > may behave differently. There was a setting for the PDP-10 (called DECsystem 10). Yep. Guess what ZEMU identifies itself as? :-) The only game that I know of that cares are BEYOND ZORK, and it works nice if you have a VT220 or newer, download the soft font I designed, and then just play on... If someone have a VT525, they could even test color... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Apr 26 03:59:09 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 10:59:09 +0200 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <200604260015.k3Q0Fpgs006816@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <200604260015.k3Q0Fpgs006816@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <20060426105909.029fb692@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 20:15:51 -0400 Brad Parker wrote: > >To my amazement, I discovered > >that linux does not have a raw disk I/O capability by default. > I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, The Linux /dev/hda device is a _block_ device. Data read from / written to that device goes through the buffer cache. Such devices are not considered "raw". There is no corresponding _character_ device /dev/rhda, that bypasses the buffer cache. These unbuffered character devices are the "raw" devices. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Apr 26 04:19:08 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:19:08 +0200 Subject: ZEMU In-Reply-To: <200604260722.k3Q7LjYX047349@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604260722.k3Q7LjYX047349@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <444F3B0C.3020508@update.uu.se> Ok. I've uploaded the latest version of ZEMU to Update. If anyone is playing with it, please update to this version (V1.10). And then feel free to ask me any questions. We'll get this working on RT-11 in no time. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Apr 26 04:33:07 2006 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:33:07 +0200 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <20060426105909.029fb692@SirToby.dinner41.de> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <200604260015.k3Q0Fpgs006816@mwave.heeltoe.com> <20060426105909.029fb692@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: <20060426093307.GP25520@lug-owl.de> On Wed, 2006-04-26 10:59:09 +0200, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 20:15:51 -0400 > Brad Parker wrote: > > > >To my amazement, I discovered > > >that linux does not have a raw disk I/O capability by default. > > I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, > The Linux /dev/hda device is a _block_ device. Data read from / written > to that device goes through the buffer cache. Such devices are not > considered "raw". There is no corresponding _character_ device > /dev/rhda, that bypasses the buffer cache. These unbuffered character > devices are the "raw" devices. ...which were obsoleted some time ago. If you want unbuffered access, just add O_DIRECT to the flags at open() time. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From cc at corti-net.de Wed Apr 26 04:37:57 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:37:57 +0200 (CEST) Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <20060426105909.029fb692@SirToby.dinner41.de> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <200604260015.k3Q0Fpgs006816@mwave.heeltoe.com> <20060426105909.029fb692@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Apr 2006, Jochen Kunz wrote: > considered "raw". There is no corresponding _character_ device > /dev/rhda, that bypasses the buffer cache. These unbuffered character > devices are the "raw" devices. Under Linux: # man 8 raw Christian From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Apr 26 05:13:48 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 12:13:48 +0200 Subject: ZEMU Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816CB@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I checked in RT11 v5.3 :-) ZIO.MAC and ZMEM.MAC have the "hex field" problem. New are ZPRINT.MAC and ZSCREE.MAC, they also have that problem. ZPRINT has 4 errors, and ZSCREE has 11 errors, easy ones. ZRT.MAC still has the Library SYSTEM.MLB directive problem ... After the hex to octal adjustments, only ZRT.MAC has a problem. - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist > Sent: woensdag 26 april 2006 11:19 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: ZEMU > > Ok. I've uploaded the latest version of ZEMU to Update. > If anyone is playing with it, please update to this version (V1.10). > And then feel free to ask me any questions. We'll get this working on > RT-11 in no time. > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Apr 26 09:19:50 2006 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 10:19:50 -0400 Subject: OSI Addition to collection In-Reply-To: <20060426021220.92030.qmail@web81004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: David Williams wrote: > Received a nice addition to the collection today. An OSI > Challenger 2P with a monitor and a LOT of cassette software. The > really nice part for me was the ton of documentation, newsletters > and books that came with it! Ok it isn't really a ton but it > sure felt like it when I carried it in from the car. Now to > spend time sorting and cataloging everything and checking out the system. Congratulations! Curious about the monitor. Was it a converted TV by any chance? If so, I'd be interested to know the make and model. OSI showed converted TV sets as monitors in photos in several of their ads and in drawings in their documentation but with no clear make or model info. I have a couple of OSIs that I acquired with converted TVs as monitors but they don't match the ad photos so I'm trying to figure out whether they are "original". Also, if you need tips, hints, schematics, etc., I have two working 2Ps, the complete schematics and an almost complete set of PEEK65. Finally, when you get the chance, I'd like to compare your software list with mine and maybe get/supply copies to fill both collections. Bill From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Apr 26 10:54:54 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 17:54:54 +0200 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060424222250.025844e8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <200604260015.k3Q0Fpgs006816@mwave.heeltoe.com> <20060426105909.029fb692@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: <20060426175454.41fea9de@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:37:57 +0200 (CEST) Christian Corti wrote: > Under Linux: > # man 8 raw Awkward. At least to me, as I am a BSD person. ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Apr 26 11:16:42 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:16:42 -0500 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <200604260015.k3Q0Fpgs006816@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060426090358.0422e4c8@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 08:15 PM 4/25/2006 -0400, Brad Parker wrote: >Tom Uban wrote: > >To my amazement, I discovered > >that linux does not have a raw disk I/O capability by default. > >I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, but if you met me >at a cocktail party I'd bet you a steak dinner that it did, >in fact, have raw i/o and dd should work to copy from one drive >to another. Because there aren't any raw disk devices, at least not by default and my google searches on the subject confirmed this. Of course as this thread has discussed, the meaning of raw I/O and the reasons for it vary, so I'll clarify. I am copying a 40GB disk to a 100GB disk and when finished, would like to have the first 40GB of the 100GB disk match the original 40GB disk, bit for bit. Neither disk has any DOS, Windows, NT, Un*x, or Linux data structures present, so no partition information, MBR data structures, etc. >There are issues with ide disks, of course, and what "raw i/o" means. >Others here can, I'm sure, speak more cogently but the issue surrounds >what linux things block "n" and how that maps to a particular >cylinder/head/sector on the disk and if linear block addressing is used >or not. Yes. By "raw I/O", I was meaning that I don't want any interpretation of the disk as a file system, etc. Under Un*x, the block device typically requires that the disk be initialized with a filesystem, the disk be mounted, etc. The raw device provides access to the disk without any of this and allows the disk to be initialized with a partition table and filesystem... >But with care you can certainly dd one disk to another. I've done it >many times. You can also dd one disk to a file. I do that all the >time. And then I dd it back to a disk of the same type and it works >fine. In years past, on non-PC platforms, I too have done this without any difficulty. I believe that the heritage of the PC is throwing a wrench into the works. > >I tried using the block devices, but the resulting copy was > >not intact. > >I don't know what "not intact" means. You may have not use the "whole >disk" raw device. If you used a partition device you won't get the >whole disk. It depend on what version of the kernel you used. 2.2? >2.4? 2.6? By "intact", I mean that the bits on the destination drive (at least the first 40GB) match those which are on the source drive, identically. >typically something like "/dev/hda" or "/dev/hdb" will give you the >whole disk. When I did the copy under linux, I used /dev/hda and /dev/hdb as you describe. Under NetBSD, I used /dev/rwd0d and /dev/rwd1d. Note that the linux /dev/hda device entry is a "block" device and the NetBSD /dev/rwd0d device entry is a "raw" (or character) device. As an old Un*x kernel developer, this is what I meant by "raw I/O" -- sorry for any confusion. > >After doing a bit of searching, I discovered that > >there is some sort of rawio extension which allows a raw device > >to be associated with a block device, but it also said that dd > >would not work with this raw device due to buffer alignment > >issues vs. DMA. Go figure... > >rawio is something else. Apparently it is a mechanism which allows the use of the underlying hardware's DMA capabilities to do the transfers, or at least that is my impression. > >My second attempt was with a NetBSD 3.0 install CD, exiting to > >the shell and trying dd from rwd0a to rwd1a. I know that back > >in the dark ages, this was possible, but apparently in these > >modern times things have changed. When I try to do this I receive > >a read only error on the /dev/rwd1a device > >you're using a parition device again. you got the raw character >device "rxxx" but wd1a is not the whole disk. I'm guessing but >I bet /dev/rwd1 might be. Yes, sorry about the confusion here. I initially attempted to use the /dev/rwd0a and /dev/rwd1a devices which would normally be the first partition on the drive (if it were partitioned). I did this after trying to use the 'c' partition, which on all of the platforms which I used in the past designated the "whole" drive. After some searching and responses from others on another list, I discovered that on the PC the 'd' partition represents the "whole" drive and that is what I used. An update on my current results is that using NetBSD on the raw device was only slightly better than my results with linux. I am guessing that this is due to a difference in where the copy terminated at the end of the source drive due to a difference in cylinder/block alignment or something. As of yet, neither method has produced the results that I am looking for. I thought that the IDE drives these days were just a logical stream of blocks and that disk geometry was no longer a consideration. A reply on this thread by JBG seems to confirm this, but perhaps there is still some sort of translation going on due to the difference in sizes of these two disks? I have noted that the 40GB disk is LBA and the 100GB disk is LBA48. After trying the G4U utility suggested by John, which is really just a nicely wrapped NetBSD boot with some simple tools that utilize 'dd' and such, it looks like my problem is that the 40GB drive has some uncorrectable data errors in the middle of the disk and these have been stopping the copy prematurely. As the PC screen does not allow scrollback and is only a small number of lines I had not gathered that the completions were short and due to data errors rather than just errors due to reaching the end of the media and I was too lazy until now to work harder to understand what was really going on. So it would seem that both linux and NetBSD are both working similarly. In order to attempt to copy as much of the data as possible without a huge amount of human interaction, looking for errored blocks and copying around them, I tried using the 'dd' command with the 'conv=noerror' option under both the NetBSD and G4U systems and found that the option was disabled. Fortunately when I booted the linux system and tried this option, it did not complain. So the disk copy is underway again as I type this and hopefully this time it will complete the entire copy minus some bad blocks... --tom From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Apr 26 12:00:01 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 19:00:01 +0200 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060426090358.0422e4c8@mail.ubanproductions.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060426090358.0422e4c8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <20060426190001.4b9016b6@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:16:42 -0500 Tom Uban wrote: > I tried using the 'dd' command with the 'conv=noerror' option under > both the NetBSD and G4U systems and found that the option was > disabled. Strange. How was noerror "disabled"? Maybe you need "conv=noerror,sync bs=512", see: http://netbsd.gw.com/cgi-bin/man-cgi?dd++NetBSD-current -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Apr 26 12:50:12 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 12:50:12 -0500 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <20060426190001.4b9016b6@SirToby.dinner41.de> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060426090358.0422e4c8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20060426090358.0422e4c8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060426122013.0422e6d0@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 07:00 PM 4/26/2006 +0200, Jochen Kunz wrote: >On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:16:42 -0500 >Tom Uban wrote: > > > I tried using the 'dd' command with the 'conv=noerror' option under > > both the NetBSD and G4U systems and found that the option was > > disabled. >Strange. How was noerror "disabled"? >Maybe you need "conv=noerror,sync bs=512", see: >http://netbsd.gw.com/cgi-bin/man-cgi?dd++NetBSD-current >-- When I run 'dd if=/dev/rwd0d of=/dev/rwd1d bs=64k conv=noerror' on NetBSD, the command reports 'dd: conv option disabled' and exits. FWIF: The linux 'dd' completed with the 'conv=noerror' option set and the report from 'dmesg' indicated 85 bad sectors in a total of 4 groups. It looks like I need to do the copy again with the 'sync' option set as you suggest if I want to maintain the file offsets between the two images. Thanks for pointing this out... --tom From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 26 12:55:37 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:55:37 -0600 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 23 Apr 2006 15:01:58 -0500. <20060423190306.FDCH8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: In article <20060423190306.FDCH8983.orval.sprint.ca at dunfield.com>, "Dave Dunfield" writes: > I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for ... but I do have a > spare Newbridge 1032 data PBX. It goes up to 56 ports, and I > have scads of cards for it, so I can give you the full 56. Hi Dave, So what are you asking for the data PBX and in what configuration? -- Richard -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 26 12:57:41 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:57:41 -0600 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 24 Apr 2006 03:13:29 -0400. <01C6674D.4F8CAD40@MSE_D03> Message-ID: In article <01C6674D.4F8CAD40 at MSE_D03>, M H Stein writes: > And I've got a bunch of Digital Products NC16/250 NetCommanders. > Similar to Dave's Newbridge units; 16 ports/256K buffer, RJ-45 RS232 > only (110-19200bd) (on one main board, unlike the Newbridge). > Cascade for more ports. > > Literature & docs available. Hi Mike, So what are you asking for these? Do you have docs online so that I can take a look at the details? If each unit supports 16 ports, I think I'd need at least 2 units. > Also some Datagram StatMuxes, modems, line drivers, converters &c. I'd also like to hear more details about these. I don't need modems, but I'm interested to learn what a "Datagram StatMux" is and I'd like to hear about what converters you have. Thanks! -- Richard -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 26 13:05:08 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 12:05:08 -0600 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:55:37 -0600. Message-ID: Oops, that was supposed to be an email reply, sorry :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Apr 26 13:06:35 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:06:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Plethora of Pictures from TCF 2006 ;) Message-ID: <20060426180635.ED17E58267@mail.wordstock.com> GOTO http://home.comcast.net/~bryan.pope/index.html Cheers, Bryan P.S. That is my C64 setup in the TCF pix. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 26 13:50:34 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 13:50:34 Subject: Tektronix PEP301 mystery resolved In-Reply-To: References: <"25 Apr 2006 09:30:58." <3.0.6.16.20060425093058.0fa736e6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060426135034.10a7c12c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:33 AM 4/25/06 -0600, you wrote: > >In article <3.0.6.16.20060425093058.0fa736e6 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com>, > "Joe R." writes: > >> FWIW yes there was a "real" programmer's keyboard that was made for the >> 4041. But try to find one!! I had one, I took me about five years of >> dedicated searching to find it. I'd be willing to bet that no one on the >> list has one. They are SCARCE! A friend of mine is a real Tektronix >> collector and has probably 25 4041s but even he didn't have a keyboard till >> I gave him mine. > >Heh heh... I figured as much. That dev keyboard lookd pretty funky >too! All kinds of application-specific keys, obviously custom built >for Tektronix and probably the rarest piece of 4041 accoutrements that >you could get. Probably but the 4041 DDU is also rare. It's a Disk Drive Unit for the 4041 and looks very much like a 4041. It has a HH 5 1/4" floppy drive and a Seagate ST-225 (IIRC) 20 hard drive both mounted vertically in it. I have one of those that's complete except for the interface cable and a second one that's been half torn apart by a scrap dealer. IIRC you need a 4041 with the DDU interface in it to use the DDU. > >It looks to me like most people used the serial port with a terminal for >programming. That's what *I* was planning on doing to play with the 4041. > >For my purposes of data interchange, the PEP301 is probably a better >match since it is a PC. There's probably not much reason to talk to a 4041 unless you intend to use it. And the only thing that it's good for is a GPIB controller. These days it would be much simpler to just use a PC as a GPIB controller. NI GPIB cards are easy to find, cheap, well documented and you can program them in Assembly, C, Fortran, BASIC and (I think) Pascal. I have ISA NICs for which I could probably >locate drivers so that I could exchange data over the net with it. > >> *The display is hard to read in the picture ut it says "VER. 2.0 MEM-512K >> ". That's about the limit of what the display is capable of. > >How's your DC100 tape drive in your unit? I don't have that unit any more I'm not sure what condition it was in. I THINK it looked ok but at the time I didn't have any factory tapes to test it with. FWIW I gave all my 4041 stuff to a friend of mine that's a Tektronix NUT. I never got around to doing anything serious with it and he has PILES of Tektronix stuff and I figure I can always borrow the stuff back if I need. I haven't tested mine yet, >but since its NIB I have high hopes. I definately will need to probe >the rubber capstan wheels :-). In the HP's, it's OBVIOUS when they're bad! joe >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 26 13:15:37 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 12:15:37 -0600 Subject: Tektronix PEP301 mystery resolved In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 26 Apr 2006 13:50:34. <3.0.6.16.20060426135034.10a7c12c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: In article <3.0.6.16.20060426135034.10a7c12c at pop-server.cfl.rr.com>, "Joe R." writes: > There's probably not much reason to talk to a 4041 unless you intend to > use it. And the only thing that it's good for is a GPIB controller. These > days it would be much simpler to just use a PC as a GPIB controller. NI > GPIB cards are easy to find, cheap, well documented and you can program > them in Assembly, C, Fortran, BASIC and (I think) Pascal. Yes, however, I have heard various amounts of success in using a PC with an NI GPIB controller talking to the CBM 8050. Apparently it depends on the card/driver combination you use. Some will work and some won't. > In the HP's, it's OBVIOUS when they're bad! Yeah, in my 2648A with the dead capstan its a puddle of goop under the pin! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From evan at snarc.net Wed Apr 26 13:17:26 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:17:26 -0400 Subject: Plethora of Pictures from TCF 2006 ;) In-Reply-To: <20060426180635.ED17E58267@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <001f01c6695d$ac10b950$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Since when is three a "plethora"...? -----Original Message----- From: Bryan Pope [mailto:bpope at wordstock.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 2:07 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Plethora of Pictures from TCF 2006 ;) GOTO http://home.comcast.net/~bryan.pope/index.html Cheers, Bryan P.S. That is my C64 setup in the TCF pix. From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Apr 26 13:24:50 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:24:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Plethora of Pictures from TCF 2006 ;) In-Reply-To: <001f01c6695d$ac10b950$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <20060426182450.46F3A58269@mail.wordstock.com> > > Since when is three a "plethora"...? > It is when I have a ;) at the end of the subject and I am making fun of my *lack* of pictures.. :) Cheers, Bryan > -----Original Message----- > From: Bryan Pope [mailto:bpope at wordstock.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 2:07 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Plethora of Pictures from TCF 2006 ;) > > > > GOTO http://home.comcast.net/~bryan.pope/index.html > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > P.S. That is my C64 setup in the TCF pix. > > > From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Apr 26 14:12:03 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:12:03 -0500 Subject: SAGE film 1956 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060426141136.02479fc8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Nice Richard, thanks for sharing! --tom At 04:46 PM 4/25/2006 -0600, Richard wrote: > > >Lots of nice shots of the equipment... >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 14:23:16 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:23:16 -0400 Subject: Plethora of Pictures from TCF 2006 ;) In-Reply-To: <001f01c6695d$ac10b950$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001f01c6695d$ac10b950$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <444FC8A4.8070906@gmail.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Since when is three a "plethora"...? Jefe: We have many beautiful pinatas for your birthday celebration, each one filled with little surprises! El Guapo: How many pinatas? Jefe: Many pinatas, many! El Guapo: Jefe, would you say I have a plethora of pinatas? Jefe: A what? El Guapo: A *plethora*. Jefe: Oh yes, El Guapo. You have a plethora. El Guapo: Jefe, what is a plethora? Jefe: Why, El Guapo? El Guapo: Well, you just told me that I had a plethora, and I would just like to know if you know what it means to have a plethora. I would not like to think that someone would tell someone else he has a plethora, and then find out that that person has *no idea* what it means to have a plethora. Jefe: El Guapo, I know that I, Jefe, do not have your superior intellect and education, but could it be that once again, you are angry at something else, and are looking to take it out on me? 8-) Peace... Sridhar From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Apr 26 14:33:28 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:33:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060426122013.0422e6d0@mail.ubanproductions.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060426090358.0422e4c8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20060426090358.0422e4c8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20060426122013.0422e6d0@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <200604261936.PAA09754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > When I run 'dd if=/dev/rwd0d of=/dev/rwd1d bs=64k conv=noerror' on > NetBSD, the command reports 'dd: conv option disabled' and exits. I suspect this is because you're using the shell-out option frokm the installer. On the installer, most programs are very stripped down, to make everything fit on two floppies. In short, this is not "NetBSD's dd" but "NetBSD's installer's dd". What you need is a non-stripped-down dd binary, and you won't find that on the installer. (If you are using the CD image, it's there, but not in a very usable form - it's in the "base" binary set, and while it can in principle be extracted from it, it's midly messy to do so.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Apr 26 15:04:00 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:04:00 -0500 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <200604261936.PAA09754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060426122013.0422e6d0@mail.ubanproductions.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20060426090358.0422e4c8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20060426090358.0422e4c8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20060426122013.0422e6d0@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060426150058.0262d030@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 03:33 PM 4/26/2006 -0400, der Mouse wrote: > > When I run 'dd if=/dev/rwd0d of=/dev/rwd1d bs=64k conv=noerror' on > > NetBSD, the command reports 'dd: conv option disabled' and exits. > >I suspect this is because you're using the shell-out option frokm the >installer. On the installer, most programs are very stripped down, to >make everything fit on two floppies. Yes, you are probably correct on this, even though it is the CD version instead of the floppy version. I believe that the traditional NetBSD 'dd' does include this feature. The reason that I'm using the installation version is that I am using on a PC chassis which is normally used to run Windows and am removing the boot drive and replacing it with the two drives to be copied. I then just boot the system from CD and go. >In short, this is not "NetBSD's dd" but "NetBSD's installer's dd". >What you need is a non-stripped-down dd binary, and you won't find that >on the installer. (If you are using the CD image, it's there, but not >in a very usable form - it's in the "base" binary set, and while it can >in principle be extracted from it, it's midly messy to do so.) I see. --tom From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Apr 26 16:28:05 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 16:28:05 -0500 Subject: LF: Sony PCG-505G port replicator (for older VAIO notebook) Message-ID: <20060426202915.QVIF20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Looking for a Sony PCGA-PR5 port replicator. This is a small box with a cable that fits the I/O connector of older Sony VAIO notebooks and provides access to parallel, serial, video and keyboard/mouse ports. I've put a picture of it at: http://www.dunfield.com/pub/pcgapr5.jpg It came standard with the VAIO PCG-505G (which is what I am looking for it for), and probably other sub-notebooks. Anyone got one kicking around? Regards, Dave Dunfield -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Apr 26 16:28:05 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 16:28:05 -0500 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <444DA810.7070403@mdrconsult.com> References: <200604242333.44873.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20060426202921.QVIV20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Thanks guys for the info -- interesting about the x86 emulator to run the video BIOS. Looks like this machine is completely dead - I can't get any activity from the video or serial ports - no beeps either. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From evan at snarc.net Wed Apr 26 15:33:45 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 16:33:45 -0400 Subject: Plethora of Pictures from TCF 2006 ;) In-Reply-To: <444FC8A4.8070906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000e01c66970$b72114d0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Ha! What is this from? -----Original Message----- From: Sridhar Ayengar [mailto:ploopster at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:23 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Plethora of Pictures from TCF 2006 ;) Evan Koblentz wrote: > Since when is three a "plethora"...? Jefe: We have many beautiful pinatas for your birthday celebration, each one filled with little surprises! El Guapo: How many pinatas? Jefe: Many pinatas, many! El Guapo: Jefe, would you say I have a plethora of pinatas? Jefe: A what? El Guapo: A *plethora*. Jefe: Oh yes, El Guapo. You have a plethora. El Guapo: Jefe, what is a plethora? Jefe: Why, El Guapo? El Guapo: Well, you just told me that I had a plethora, and I would just like to know if you know what it means to have a plethora. I would not like to think that someone would tell someone else he has a plethora, and then find out that that person has *no idea* what it means to have a plethora. Jefe: El Guapo, I know that I, Jefe, do not have your superior intellect and education, but could it be that once again, you are angry at something else, and are looking to take it out on me? 8-) Peace... Sridhar From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 15:41:30 2006 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 13:41:30 -0700 Subject: Plethora of Pictures from TCF 2006 ;) In-Reply-To: <000e01c66970$b72114d0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <444FC8A4.8070906@gmail.com> <000e01c66970$b72114d0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90604261341s786d97bbyf7bc7c5181e8d5d4@mail.gmail.com> Memorable Quotes from Three Amigos! http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092086/quotes On 4/26/06, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Ha! > > What is this from? From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Apr 26 15:40:50 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:40:50 -0500 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <20060426190001.4b9016b6@SirToby.dinner41.de> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060426090358.0422e4c8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20060426090358.0422e4c8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060426153903.02468d20@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 07:00 PM 4/26/2006 +0200, you wrote: >On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:16:42 -0500 >Tom Uban wrote: > > > I tried using the 'dd' command with the 'conv=noerror' option under > > both the NetBSD and G4U systems and found that the option was > > disabled. >Strange. How was noerror "disabled"? >Maybe you need "conv=noerror,sync bs=512", see: >http://netbsd.gw.com/cgi-bin/man-cgi?dd++NetBSD-current >-- The copy under linux using the 'sync' option is complete and the results are good. There were 488 bad sectors... --tnx --tom From fryers at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 16:55:14 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 22:55:14 +0100 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <20060426202921.QVIV20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <200604242333.44873.pat@computer-refuge.org> <444DA810.7070403@mdrconsult.com> <20060426202921.QVIV20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: All, On 4/26/06, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Looks like this machine is completely dead - I can't get any activity from > the video or serial ports - no beeps either. Make sure the CPU fan is spinning. Stopping the CPU fan on my 164sx stops the machine dead. Caused a bit if head scratching until I noticed one of the cables rubbing against the fan. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Apr 26 18:09:23 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 18:09:23 -0500 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: References: <20060426202921.QVIV20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20060426221033.PLOY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > All, > > On 4/26/06, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > Looks like this machine is completely dead - I can't get any activity from > > the video or serial ports - no beeps either. > > Make sure the CPU fan is spinning. Stopping the CPU fan on my 164sx > stops the machine dead. Caused a bit if head scratching until I > noticed one of the cables rubbing against the fan. Ok - this is interesting .... This machine is missing the CPU fan - I haven't worried about it yet, because the large heat-sink is there, and my testing has not been for long enough durations for it to get more than slightly warm ... does the board monitor the fan tach. and shut down if it's does not see a pulse train? Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 26 17:19:17 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:19:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: anyone have a terminal server? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Apr 26, 6 11:57:41 am Message-ID: > > > In article <01C6674D.4F8CAD40 at MSE_D03>, > M H Stein writes: > > > And I've got a bunch of Digital Products NC16/250 NetCommanders. You don't know anything about older NetCommanders, do you? I have a unit on my desk here that's got 16 RS232 ports (IIRC it's 8 plug-in daughterboards with 2 ports on each board). The mainboard has a Z80A on it I think, and 4 RAM cards (IIRC 256K bytes each). I also have -- somwhere -- some smaller units with 10 ports (6 serial, 4 parallel), all on one PCB. I can dig out model numebrs, etc, if you think you might be able to help -tony From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 26 17:44:28 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 16:44:28 -0600 Subject: more docs scanned (Random Colleague, Silent 700, Tektronix 4041) Message-ID: New: Random Corporation - Colleague & Colleague Plus User's Guide Aug 1988 (15.9M PDF) Tektronix - 4041R01 Graphics ROM May 1985 (5.8 MB PDF) - 4041R02 Plotting ROMPack Feb 1985 (6 MB PDF) - 4041R04 Utility ROMPack Jul 1985 (1.6 MB PDF) Texas Instruments - Silent 700 Model 703/707 Quick Reference Card (250K PDF) - Silent 700 Auto-Access Cartrdige Quick Reference Card (86K PDF) - Silent 700 Model 707 Battery Pack Option (51K PDF) - Silent 700 Model 707 User's Manual (6.3 MB PDF) Al Kossow, would you prefer I email you new PDFs for incorporation to BitSavers in the future? There's more stuff coming... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From allain at panix.com Wed Apr 26 17:48:01 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 18:48:01 -0400 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? References: <20060426202921.QVIV20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060426221033.PLOY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <00b301c66983$799555a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Anybody dismiss this as not a Multia yet? Those things had tiny mainboards and a tendency to burn themselves out, IE no responses to pwon. They did certainly come with 4 mem slots and 166mhz Alphas. John A. From fryers at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 18:18:27 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 00:18:27 +0100 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <20060426221033.PLOY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060426202921.QVIV20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060426221033.PLOY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: All, On 4/27/06, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > On 4/26/06, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > Looks like this machine is completely dead - I can't get any activity from > > > the video or serial ports - no beeps either. > > > > Make sure the CPU fan is spinning. Stopping the CPU fan on my 164sx > > stops the machine dead. Caused a bit if head scratching until I > > noticed one of the cables rubbing against the fan. > > Ok - this is interesting .... > > This machine is missing the CPU fan - I haven't worried about it yet, because > the large heat-sink is there, and my testing has not been for long enough durations > for it to get more than slightly warm ... does the board monitor the fan tach. and > shut down if it's does not see a pulse train? Just checked the manual for my 164sx, and yes, it does need the fan tach. I'll scan the manual tomorrow and make it available. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 26 19:32:43 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 19:32:43 Subject: Tektronix PEP301 mystery resolved In-Reply-To: References: <"26 Apr 2006 13:50:34." <3.0.6.16.20060426135034.10a7c12c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060426193243.0f6fb49c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:15 PM 4/26/06 -0600, you wrote: > >In article <3.0.6.16.20060426135034.10a7c12c at pop-server.cfl.rr.com>, > "Joe R." writes: > >> There's probably not much reason to talk to a 4041 unless you intend to >> use it. And the only thing that it's good for is a GPIB controller. These >> days it would be much simpler to just use a PC as a GPIB controller. NI >> GPIB cards are easy to find, cheap, well documented and you can program >> them in Assembly, C, Fortran, BASIC and (I think) Pascal. > >Yes, however, I have heard various amounts of success in using a PC >with an NI GPIB controller talking to the CBM 8050. Apparently it >depends on the card/driver combination you use. Some will work and >some won't. Any idea what's not working? It looks to me like the NI GPIB stuff is MUCH more configurable than the HP or Tektronix. > >> In the HP's, it's OBVIOUS when they're bad! > >Yeah, in my 2648A with the dead capstan its a puddle of goop under the >pin! :-/ Joe >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 26 19:39:21 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 19:39:21 Subject: American Automation emulators? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060426193921.1877061a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Is anyone familar with this stuff? I picked up a pile of it a week or two back. The pod that I'm looking at right now if for the 6800/02/08 but I think the others are for other CPUs. Anyone know what system it's for? The interface board uses the same type female connectors as the ss-50 stuff but many more pins and much larger circuit card. I found some mentions on the net but nothing useful. Joe From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 26 18:51:37 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 16:51:37 -0700 Subject: more docs scanned (Random Colleague, Silent 700, Tektronix 4041) Message-ID: > Al Kossow, would you prefer I email you new PDFs for incorporation to > BitSavers in the future? an email and URL are fine. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed Apr 26 19:05:15 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 17:05:15 -0700 Subject: American Automation emulators? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060426193921.1877061a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060426193921.1877061a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <44500ABB.4000007@DakotaCom.Net> Joe R. wrote: > Is anyone familar with this stuff? I picked up a pile of it a week or > two back. The pod that I'm looking at right now if for the 6800/02/08 but I > think the others are for other CPUs. Anyone know what system it's for? The > interface board uses the same type female connectors as the ss-50 stuff but > many more pins and much larger circuit card. I found some mentions on the > net but nothing useful. It's all proprietary. If you decide to toss any of it, please let me know as I have / use some of their tools. Thanks, --don From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 26 20:03:33 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 20:03:33 Subject: HP 106B Quartz Frequency Standard? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060426200333.18778810@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I can't find this in any of the catalogs that I have. Can anyone tell me anything about it? From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Apr 26 19:06:02 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 17:06:02 -0700 Subject: American Automation emulators? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060426193921.1877061a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060426193921.1877061a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <44500AEA.6060707@msm.umr.edu> Joe R. wrote: > Is anyone familar with this stuff? I picked up a pile of it a week or >two back. The pod that I'm looking at right now if for the 6800/02/08 but I >think the others are for other CPUs. Anyone know what system it's for? The >interface board uses the same type female connectors as the ss-50 stuff but >many more pins and much larger circuit card. I found some mentions on the >net but nothing useful. > > Joe > > > > I work for arium. What do you have? We are now American Arium, and I can at least find out what you have it you send photos or descriptions. I suspect maybe you either have an analyzer with some trace pods, or if you have run control, you may have an EZ/Pro system. Jim From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 26 20:20:22 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 20:20:22 Subject: MYcom Instruments PLL-DataSender? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060426202022.1877234a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Last week I found a curious looking board marked MYcom Instruments PLL-DataSender. It has a five position terminal strip on the top edge with some wires dangling from it, a ZIP socket with what looks like an EPROM (it has a lable on it so I can't read the PN), an LCD display and six pushbottons on the bottom edge marked "reset", "mode", "send", "up', "down" and "". I can get a display on it and the cursor move things around and pull up four different displays but I can't fingure out what it's supposed to do. Anybody know anything about it? Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 26 20:29:08 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 20:29:08 Subject: American Automation emulators? In-Reply-To: <44500AEA.6060707@msm.umr.edu> References: <3.0.6.16.20060426193921.1877061a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060426193921.1877061a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060426202908.463706e2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Jim, Actually I'm just guessing that these are emulator boards. I'm not positive what they are. I have several of these but ot the machine that they go into, just the pods and interface boards. The pods that are attached to interface boards with two ribbon cables. There's also a short ribbon cable that connects to the pod and to a DIP plug that looks like it's supposed to replace a CPU. The pods are in metal box about 10 x 7 inches square and slightly over an inch thick. The bottom over on the pod is hinged and you can open it up and see the emulator card. This card is marked 6800/02/08. The interface card is about 6 x 10 inches square and has female connectors that are made to fit over small male pins. I don't know the name of these connectors but it looks like the same connectors that used on the SS-50 computer cards. I'll try to get some pictures tomorrow. Joe At 05:06 PM 4/26/06 -0700, you wrote: >Joe R. wrote: > >> Is anyone familar with this stuff? I picked up a pile of it a week or >>two back. The pod that I'm looking at right now if for the 6800/02/08 but I >>think the others are for other CPUs. Anyone know what system it's for? The >>interface board uses the same type female connectors as the ss-50 stuff but >>many more pins and much larger circuit card. I found some mentions on the >>net but nothing useful. >> >> Joe >> >> >> >> >I work for arium. What do you have? We are now American Arium, and >I can at least find out what you have it you send photos or descriptions. > >I suspect maybe you either have an analyzer with some trace pods, or >if you have run control, you may have an EZ/Pro system. > >Jim > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 26 20:39:39 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 20:39:39 Subject: American Automation emulators? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060426203939.413f6edc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Jim, I just did a Google search for American Automation EZ-pro and found ebay auction #7590626029. The pod shown in the picture there looks EXACTLY like mine including the slope front but mine doesn't have the CPU number on the box. So it looks like that's what I have. I'll get a more complete list of what I have tomorrow. Thanks for the tip. BTW when I searched for American Amutomation before I did find the link to Arium and I thought that might be what I was looking for but the link was dead! Joe At 05:06 PM 4/26/06 -0700, you wrote: >Joe R. wrote: > >> Is anyone familar with this stuff? I picked up a pile of it a week or >>two back. The pod that I'm looking at right now if for the 6800/02/08 but I >>think the others are for other CPUs. Anyone know what system it's for? The >>interface board uses the same type female connectors as the ss-50 stuff but >>many more pins and much larger circuit card. I found some mentions on the >>net but nothing useful. >> >> Joe >> >> >> >> >I work for arium. What do you have? We are now American Arium, and >I can at least find out what you have it you send photos or descriptions. > >I suspect maybe you either have an analyzer with some trace pods, or >if you have run control, you may have an EZ/Pro system. > >Jim > From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Apr 26 19:46:53 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 20:46:53 -0400 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:16:42 CDT." <5.2.0.9.0.20060426090358.0422e4c8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <200604270046.k3R0krWn030502@mwave.heeltoe.com> Tom Uban wrote: > >Because there aren't any raw disk devices, at least not by default >and my google searches on the subject confirmed this. Of course as >this thread has discussed, the meaning of raw I/O and the reasons >for it vary, so I'll clarify. > >I am copying a 40GB disk to a 100GB disk and when finished, would >like to have the first 40GB of the 100GB disk match the original >40GB disk, bit for bit. well, if you dd the base (unpartitioned) device on linux that's what you'll get. the block caching will have no effect on your copy (except perhaps to speed it up). the raw device on unix is designed to eliminate the effects of caching but in this case (a straight copy) the raw device on bsd unix and the block device would yield exactly the same output. >Yes. By "raw I/O", I was meaning that I don't want any interpretation >of the disk as a file system, etc. Under Un*x, the block device typically >requires that the disk be initialized with a filesystem, I would disagree. the block device knows nothing about file systems. >the disk be mounted, etc. again, I disagree. This is not the case. >The raw device provides access to the disk without any >of this and allows the disk to be initialized with a partition table >and filesystem... the block device provides the same access. I think you are attaching more semantics to the raw device (and the block device) than are there. The block device has a purpose which is outside the scope of this discussion. When you read it with dd it acts just like the old unix raw device. >In years past, on non-PC platforms, I too have done this without any >difficulty. I believe that the heritage of the PC is throwing a wrench >into the works. I don't see that. >By "intact", I mean that the bits on the destination drive (at least >the first 40GB) match those which are on the source drive, identically. ok. I think they didn't match because you used the wrong device nodes. >When I did the copy under linux, I used /dev/hda and /dev/hdb as you >describe. Under NetBSD, I used /dev/rwd0d and /dev/rwd1d. Note that >the linux /dev/hda device entry is a "block" device and the NetBSD >/dev/rwd0d device entry is a "raw" (or character) device. As an old >Un*x kernel developer, this is what I meant by "raw I/O" -- sorry >for any confusion. i've worked with block devices on *bsd, sunos, solaris and linux. I think I get it. if you did "dd if=/dev/hda of=/dev/hdb" you got what you asked for. how did you determine it was not "intact"? >An update on my current results is that using NetBSD on the raw >device was only slightly better than my results with linux. I am >guessing that this is due to a difference in where the copy terminated >at the end of the source drive due to a difference in cylinder/block >alignment or something. As of yet, neither method has produced the results >that I am looking for. really? how are you defining success? >I thought that the IDE drives these days were just a logical stream >of blocks and that disk geometry was no longer a consideration. they are. >A reply on this thread by JBG seems to confirm this, but perhaps there >is still some sort of translation going on due to the difference in >sizes of these two disks? I have noted that the 40GB disk is LBA >and the 100GB disk is LBA48. that's just the size of the block number. if they are both LBA then they are a stream of blocks. Have you tried "dd if=/dev/hda of=/filesystem/file"? That will (I promise) copy every block off the disk attached to /dev/hda into a file. It is possible to confuse linux with kernel args which force it to believe a bogus geometry, but I doubt you are doing that, so the IDE subsystem is going make it's own determination as to the size of the drive and give you every block there is. >After trying the G4U utility suggested by John, which is really just >a nicely wrapped NetBSD boot with some simple tools that utilize >'dd' and such, it looks like my problem is that the 40GB drive has >some uncorrectable data errors in the middle of the disk and these >have been stopping the copy prematurely. oh wait. you didn't mention that. "dmesg" will show kernel messages and those should have been seen on the console. >As the PC screen does not >allow scrollback and is only a small number of lines I had not >gathered that the completions were short and due to data errors try "dmesg | more" >So it would seem that both linux and NetBSD are both working similarly. yes, errors can and probably will stop the copy. I should probably just have erased this message (or read it all first). sorry. -brad From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 26 20:48:55 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 20:48:55 Subject: American Automation emulators? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060426204855.413f4c6e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Oh, what the hell! I sent outside and dug the rest of the stuff out of the car. Here's what I have: 6800/02/08, 65xx, 8085, Z-80 and 27xx (programmer?). Looks like a nice collection of vintage stuff! I have both pods and interface cards for each of them. In fact, this stuff looks NEW! Most of it is still wrapped in foam plastic sheeting and it's VERY clean. Joe At 05:06 PM 4/26/06 -0700, you wrote: >Joe R. wrote: > >> Is anyone familar with this stuff? I picked up a pile of it a week or >>two back. The pod that I'm looking at right now if for the 6800/02/08 but I >>think the others are for other CPUs. Anyone know what system it's for? The >>interface board uses the same type female connectors as the ss-50 stuff but >>many more pins and much larger circuit card. I found some mentions on the >>net but nothing useful. >> >> Joe >> >> >> >> >I work for arium. What do you have? We are now American Arium, and >I can at least find out what you have it you send photos or descriptions. > >I suspect maybe you either have an analyzer with some trace pods, or >if you have run control, you may have an EZ/Pro system. > >Jim > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 26 19:53:56 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 18:53:56 -0600 Subject: Tektronix PEP301 mystery resolved In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 26 Apr 2006 19:32:43. <3.0.6.16.20060426193243.0f6fb49c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: In article <3.0.6.16.20060426193243.0f6fb49c at pop-server.cfl.rr.com>, "Joe R." writes: > >Yes, however, I have heard various amounts of success in using a PC > >with an NI GPIB controller talking to the CBM 8050. Apparently it > >depends on the card/driver combination you use. Some will work and > >some won't. > > Any idea what's not working? It looks to me like the NI GPIB stuff is > MUCH more configurable than the HP or Tektronix. I don't know the specifics; I haven't had any IEEE controllers until recently. (I have a SPARC 5 with an HPIB interface and now the 4041 and the PEP 301.) NI cards appear on ebay but I've been reluctant to buy one because of the hit or miss results reported by others. There was discussion of this on the cbm-hackers list about this. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Apr 26 19:55:13 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 17:55:13 -0700 Subject: American Automation emulators? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060426202908.463706e2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060426193921.1877061a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060426193921.1877061a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060426202908.463706e2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <44501671.8020700@msm.umr.edu> Joe R. wrote: >Jim, > > Actually I'm just guessing that these are emulator boards. I'm not >positive what they are. > > > I suspect you have some ezpro adapter cards. There was a largeish box that was the main system that these attached to, about the size of a large cereal box (really large). It had a terminal attached to it, and was serially controlled, since it predated all the gui crap that is around today. We have one or two stashed around here, but they are rare. I have only seen two on Ebay in several years that were worth buying. I guess people kept the parts that were labeled related to target processors, and trashed the main box for some reason. The ML 4100 analyzer would not have a socket on it, and would have a 60 pin cable that goes to the 4100's front connector. The ML 4400 has to have special analog circuits on the pods, and has several plug in cards, ranging up to some that are pretty competitive with the HP 16500s with 2m x 500mhz deep capture cards in them. The bad news is that the pods are rare, as most ML4400's were married with Pentium or Pentium Pro run controls that had custom logic for the analyzer, and no general purpose way to hook up to the devices under test. Jim From technobug at comcast.net Wed Apr 26 20:14:22 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 18:14:22 -0700 Subject: HP 106B Quartz Frequency Standard? In-Reply-To: <200604270036.k3R0a5Vu056956@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604270036.k3R0a5Vu056956@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <8979932C-6329-4999-95D8-687E8DBE6CDB@comcast.net> On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 20:03:33, "Joe R." wrote: > I can't find this in any of the catalogs that I have. Can anyone > tell me > anything about it? > You are the proud owner of an extremely stable 5, 1 MHz, and 100 kHZ frequency standard. The drift over 24 hours is less than 5x10e-11. Before atomic standards became "affordable", these beasties were the secondary standards used in the lab. CRC From lee at geekdot.com Wed Apr 26 20:17:27 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 03:17:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: HP 106B Quartz Frequency Standard? Message-ID: <4914.86.139.106.59.1146100647.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > I can't find this in any of the catalogs that I have. Can anyone tell > me anything about it? A heated XTAL oscillator used to derive 5MHz, 1MHz and 100KHz reference outputs. Short term stability is probably around 1 part in 10^11 with long term stability an order worse. Units like this are often used as the master reference at HF, MF and LF transmitter sites and should be calibrated periodically against a better reference like a Rubidium standard. Without calibration this is just as accurate as any XTAL source as the frequency can usually be adjusted over 1 part in 10^7 and have a fine tune (which if I remember the HP unit is a voltage input) that has a range of 1 part in 10^8 Lee. From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Apr 26 20:18:50 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 21:18:50 -0400 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? Message-ID: <01C66977.4B7F5AA0@MSE_D03> -----------Original Message: Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:19:17 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: anyone have a terminal server? >> In article <01C6674D.4F8CAD40 at MSE_D03>, >> M H Stein writes: >> >> And I've got a bunch of Digital Products NC16/250 NetCommanders. >You don't know anything about older NetCommanders, do you? >I have a unit on my desk here that's got 16 RS232 ports (IIRC it's 8 >plug-in daughterboards with 2 ports on each board). The mainboard has a >Z80A on it I think, and 4 RAM cards (IIRC 256K bytes each). I also have >-- somwhere -- some smaller units with 10 ports (6 serial, 4 parallel), >all on one PCB. >I can dig out model numebrs, etc, if you think you might be able to help >-tony --------- Reply: Sorry, Tony, much as I'd like to repay you for all the contributions you've made, I don't think I can help very much. No info on the old modular units at all, and the '86 price list & brochure I'm looking at doesn't mention any 10 port models either. I don't have any technical info in any case, just the Installation/Reference Manual and the Applications guide for the NC4, NC7, NC8 and NC16. The NC4 (4 serial) & 7 (4 serial, 3 par.) have configuration switches on the front, while the 8 & 16 are programmed from a terminal. If you think there might be anything useful in there, let me know. I do have several boxes full of manuals for terminals & printers, etc. that I haven't looked through for quite a while; if by chance I find anything I'll let you know. BTW, the typical applications are made to order for this list ;-) : -How to connect 10 VT-100s to a 6 port VAX... -How to connect 8 terminals to a VAX and a DG... -How to connect several 9600bd VT-100s to several 1200 bd Hayes modems... -Using it as an e-mail server for dumb terminals or PCs... -Switching between a Laser printer & a plotter... Those were the days... and all that for only US$ 2995 ! mike From lee at geekdot.com Wed Apr 26 20:20:57 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 03:20:57 +0200 (CEST) Subject: HP 106B Quartz Frequency Standard? Message-ID: <4947.86.139.106.59.1146100857.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Bother! I hit send then find this .. http://www.tucker.com/images/images_spec/00000927.pdf It should tell you what you need to know. Lee. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 20:56:39 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 21:56:39 -0400 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <200604261936.PAA09754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060426090358.0422e4c8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20060426090358.0422e4c8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20060426122013.0422e6d0@mail.ubanproductions.com> <200604261936.PAA09754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <445024D7.1090207@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> When I run 'dd if=/dev/rwd0d of=/dev/rwd1d bs=64k conv=noerror' on >> NetBSD, the command reports 'dd: conv option disabled' and exits. > > I suspect this is because you're using the shell-out option frokm the > installer. On the installer, most programs are very stripped down, to > make everything fit on two floppies. > > In short, this is not "NetBSD's dd" but "NetBSD's installer's dd". > What you need is a non-stripped-down dd binary, and you won't find that > on the installer. (If you are using the CD image, it's there, but not > in a very usable form - it's in the "base" binary set, and while it can > in principle be extracted from it, it's midly messy to do so.) Didn't someone make a NetBSD LiveCD? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 21:04:15 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 22:04:15 -0400 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <00b301c66983$799555a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <20060426202921.QVIV20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060426221033.PLOY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <00b301c66983$799555a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <4450269F.5050004@gmail.com> John Allain wrote: > Anybody dismiss this as not a Multia yet? > Those things had tiny mainboards and a tendency > to burn themselves out, IE no responses to pwon. > They did certainly come with 4 mem slots and > 166mhz Alphas. The slowest Alpha ever made, I might add. The 21066. Peace... Sridhar From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Apr 26 22:08:19 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 22:08:19 -0500 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: References: <20060426221033.PLOY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20060427020931.WNUV20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Just checked the manual for my 164sx, and yes, it does need the fan tach. > > I'll scan the manual tomorrow and make it available. Indeed the fan was the problem - connected a fan, and it immediately gave some beeps - fooled with the jumpers a bit and up came the POST on video - seems to be working. The fellow I got it from thought he had a PDF manual for the board, but forgot to bring it - I'll press him for it. Now - if I could get VMS running on this, that would be fun! Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Apr 26 21:58:46 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 22:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <445024D7.1090207@gmail.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060426090358.0422e4c8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20060426090358.0422e4c8@mail.ubanproductions.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20060426122013.0422e6d0@mail.ubanproductions.com> <200604261936.PAA09754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <445024D7.1090207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200604270300.XAA09955@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> When I run 'dd if=/dev/rwd0d of=/dev/rwd1d bs=64k conv=noerror' on >>> NetBSD, the command reports 'dd: conv option disabled' and exits. >> In short, this is not "NetBSD's dd" but "NetBSD's installer's dd". >> What you need is a non-stripped-down dd binary, [...] > Didn't someone make a NetBSD LiveCD? Possibly. I know it was talked about, but I don't recall anyone doing it (which does not, of course, mean nobody did). Such a thing probably would be just what this person needs ("probably" here approximately equals "unless it was done with stripped-down binaries", which seems unlikely to me). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 26 22:20:51 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 20:20:51 -0700 Subject: HP 106B Quartz Frequency Standard? In-Reply-To: <200604270036.k3R0a5Vx056956@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604270036.k3R0a5Vx056956@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <44503893.5070506@sbcglobal.net> I scanned the two pages from the 1967 HP catalog. You can find it here: http://www.dvq.com/docs/hp106_107.pdf It's a very nice quartz standard. Bob Message: 30 Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 20:03:33 From: "Joe R." Subject: HP 106B Quartz Frequency Standard? To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060426200333.18778810 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I can't find this in any of the catalogs that I have. Can anyone tell me anything about it? From mross666 at hotmail.com Wed Apr 26 22:49:16 2006 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 03:49:16 +0000 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck Message-ID: Speechless... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8799118065 !!!!!! Better go revising my insurance - I have more that aren't in this picture: http://www.corestore.org/ibmpanels.jpg Mike http://www.corestore.org From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Apr 26 22:59:35 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:59:35 -0400 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck References: Message-ID: <000c01c669ae$ff97eb10$8c5c1941@game> One ebay auction does not mean much. How much did you think those panels were worth, and where do you live. ;) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ross" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 11:49 PM Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck > Speechless... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8799118065 > > !!!!!! > > Better go revising my insurance - I have more that aren't in this picture: > > http://www.corestore.org/ibmpanels.jpg > > Mike > http://www.corestore.org > From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 23:00:30 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 00:00:30 -0400 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <445041DE.2020305@gmail.com> Mike Ross wrote: > Speechless... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8799118065 > > !!!!!! > > Better go revising my insurance - I have more that aren't in this picture: > > http://www.corestore.org/ibmpanels.jpg That is wrong on *soooo* many levels. Peace... Sridhar From mokuba at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 23:02:11 2006 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 00:02:11 -0400 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80b37ffc0604262102n59ab6990g68d5c045104e6b7a@mail.gmail.com> Send one my way.... =] I could use a quick fix... wrecked car and all :D On 4/26/06, Mike Ross wrote: > Speechless... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8799118065 > > !!!!!! > > Better go revising my insurance - I have more that aren't in this picture: > > http://www.corestore.org/ibmpanels.jpg > > Mike > http://www.corestore.org > > > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Apr 26 23:07:57 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 00:07:57 -0400 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604270007.57720.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 26 April 2006 23:49, Mike Ross wrote: > Speechless... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8799118065 > > !!!!!! > > Better go revising my insurance - I have more that aren't in this > picture: > > http://www.corestore.org/ibmpanels.jpg Where's the machines to go with those!? :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Apr 26 23:16:40 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 21:16:40 -0700 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <200604270007.57720.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200604270007.57720.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <445045A8.4000603@mindspring.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 26 April 2006 23:49, Mike Ross wrote: > >> Speechless... >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8799118065 >> >> !!!!!! >> >> Better go revising my insurance - I have more that aren't in this >> picture: >> >> http://www.corestore.org/ibmpanels.jpg >> > > Where's the machines to go with those!? > > :) > > Pat > The best part is dkdkk came in second, for once :-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 26 23:25:18 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 21:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <445045A8.4000603@mindspring.com> References: <200604270007.57720.pat@computer-refuge.org> <445045A8.4000603@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20060426212259.U38387@shell.lmi.net> > Where's the machines to go with those!? When you see a moosehead on the wall, it's unlikely that the rest of the moose is in the next room. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Apr 26 23:38:03 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:38:03 -0500 Subject: raw disk copying? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060426090358.0422e4c8@mail.ubanproductions.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060426090358.0422e4c8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <44504AAB.4020909@brutman.com> Tom Uban wrote: > Yes. By "raw I/O", I was meaning that I don't want any interpretation > of the disk as a file system, etc. Under Un*x, the block device typically > requires that the disk be initialized with a filesystem, the disk be > mounted, etc. The raw device provides access to the disk without any > of this and allows the disk to be initialized with a partition table > and filesystem... I think that you are making this far more complicated than it is. Linux has two types of devices - block and character. Obviously block devices communicate in fixed sized chunks while character devices are everything else. You can do anything you want to a hard disk using the /dev/hd* or /dev/sd* block devices. When you access a hard disk in this way, there is no filesystem interpretation or data structure interpretation at all. It's just plain raw data. It might be buffered at some level, but it is certainly not interpreted in any way. Older Unix's may have allowed you to use a character interface to speak to a hard disk to avoid buffering. Remember, Linux isn't technically Unix. It is Unix-like. Go read the list of devices .. there is no character mode access to block devices, unless you write your own device driver to do it. The standard set of major and minor numbers always have hard disks as block devices - nothing else. The issue of how to handle read errors is different .. dd isn't very graceful about error handling. I would suspect that after a retry or two it should clear up. I'm not sure if the kernel or the hardware automatically retry for you, and at what point they give up. Mike From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Wed Apr 26 23:59:32 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 21:59:32 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <4448B8CC.3000404@ais.fraunhofer.de> References: <20060417222142.YLOK8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200604192334.45273.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604192103340090.7DBA9B0E@10.0.0.252> <200604201340.29489.rtellason@blazenet.net> <4448B8CC.3000404@ais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <44504FB4.2020100@DakotaCom.Net> Holger Veit wrote: > Roy J. Tellason schrieb: >> On Thursday 20 April 2006 12:03 am, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> On 4/19/2006 at 11:34 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> >>>>> But a Z80 *won't* run 808[05] code. >>>>> >>> Well, a Z80 will run 8085 code that limits itself to 8080 instructions. >>> But the 8085 has two documented instructions (RIM SIM) that the 8080 >>> doesn't have-- >>> >> >> Yeah, I remember those two... >> > Undocumented instrs are not the whole story, particularly not for 8085 > vs z80 issues, and especially not for RIM and SIM. I have had hard times > finding any 8085 system at all that required and used them; the typical If you are looking for a "desktop/hobbyist" application, that's probably true. But, SID and SOD were cheap one bit ports that were exploited in embedded products. Given how few *products* were developed in this era, I find THEM more interesting than "general purpose/hobbyist" computers (since some of the architectures really came up with imaginative uses for the hardware available in processors in that timeframe (e.g., using DMA controllers as counter timers, etc.) > application seems to be a bit-banger RS-232 interface - usually any 808x > system that has a serial interface will employ a 8251 or alike for that. > Maybe some embedded two-chip system (8085+8355) will take advantage of > it, but this is probably only interesting for forensic analyses, not > really a hobbyist/conservation issue. > > No, a really nasty difference comes from the different use of the parity > bit in the 8080 vs the same PSW bit in a Z80. Although I thought this > would also just be used for calculating/checking the parity bit for > bit-banger serial, it often appears in rather obscure scenarios where > one wouldn't expect it. At least, in a disassembly one often finds > incidents by searching for the JPE/JPO instructions. >> >>> and a few more "undocumented" instructions (nonetheless used by many >>> embedded programs) that neither the 8080 nor the Z80 has. >> >> I remember some real early magazine articles, and have since found a >> bit of stuff online, that talked about undocumented opcodes for the >> z80, but I've not run across that info for anything else. And it >> seems to depend a lot on what brand of chip, etc. so I've never been >> really tempted to use them > I know of a least one software (which I had disassembled myself for > curiosity long ago) that actually uses undocumented Z80 instructions, > namely the ones that allow access to the higher and lower haves of the > index registers: this is the 12K-Zapple-Basic by TDL. Concerning these > instructions, they seem to work on most common Z80s, including Z80A, B, > and H variants, tried those myself. I haven't verified, due to lack of > HW, where they also work on the 64180, the z180 or z280. The 64180/Z180 (I believe zilog actually licensed the Z180 from hitachi -- they were bus playing with Z280 and Z380 and appear to have skipped the Z180 market) adds even more variety to the mix. (the IN0/OUT0, TST, etc. instructions) From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Wed Apr 26 23:58:53 2006 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 21:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OSI Addition to collection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060427045853.85467.qmail@web81009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'll let you know as soon as I get to the box with the monitor in it. So far I've concentrated on the box of doc and stuff. I'll let you know what I find out about the software. Until then, if interested, you can see the current doc list at http://www.trailingedge.com/osi/OSIDoc.txt How many issues is a complete set of PEEK(65)? I have a bunch here now and wonder how complete it is. ----- David Williams http://www.trailingedge.com ----- Original Message ---- From: Bill Sudbrink wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Congratulations! Curious about the monitor. Was it a converted TV by any chance? If so, I'd be interested to know the make and model. OSI showed converted TV sets as monitors in photos in several of their ads and in drawings in their documentation but with no clear make or model info. I have a couple of OSIs that I acquired with converted TVs as monitors but they don't match the ad photos so I'm trying to figure out whether they are "original". Also, if you need tips, hints, schematics, etc., I have two working 2Ps, the complete schematics and an almost complete set of PEEK65. Finally, when you get the chance, I'd like to compare your software list with mine and maybe get/supply copies to fill both collections. Bill From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Apr 27 00:08:01 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 22:08:01 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <200604211009140757.85B04607@10.0.0.252> References: <20060417222142.YLOK8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200604192334.45273.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604192103340090.7DBA9B0E@10.0.0.252> <200604201340.29489.rtellason@blazenet.net> <4448B8CC.3000404@ais.fraunhofer.de> <200604211009140757.85B04607@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <445051B1.8000702@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/21/2006 at 12:49 PM Holger Veit wrote: > >>> what brand of chip, etc. so I've never been really tempted to use them >> I know of a least one software (which I had disassembled myself for >> curiosity long ago) that actually uses undocumented Z80 instructions, >> namely the ones that allow access to the higher and lower haves of the >> index registers: this is the 12K-Zapple-Basic by TDL. Concerning these >> instructions, they seem to work on most common Z80s, including Z80A, B, >> and H variants, tried those myself. I haven't verified, due to lack of >> HW, where they also work on the 64180, the z180 or z280. > > Those upper-lower IX/IY undocumented instructions seem to be very > straightforward. DD/FD prefixes simply indicate whether IX or IY should be > used in place of HL. Undocumented EDs on the Z80 are another kettle of > fish, however. > > On the 8085, one important use of RIM and SIM is handling of TRAP > conditions. I've got a system here that uses TRAP to diagnose accesses of > non-existent peripherals and memory parity errors as well a keyboard entry > akin to (Ctrl+Alt+Del). > > Out of curiosity, I got my old Grid laptop with a NEC V30 CPU out and > started to try some of the "undocumented" 8085 opcodes on it. Well, the > few that I've tried aren't no-ops, but on the the other hand, they don't do > anything particularly exciting. For example, 28 seems to be identical in > operation to DAD H (29), while 38 seems to act identically to INR H (24). > FD appears to read the next byte and use it to set or clear the parity and > half-carry flags. My guess is that part of the CPI instruction logic's > being used, although the other flags (C, Z and S) don't seem to be > affected. I haven't tried any others--it's pretty obvious that undefined > opcodes in V30 8080 emulation mode simply take flying leaps into the logic > array. How this compares with, say, a NEC C8080A is something that I'm not > equipped to answer. > > After all these years, I'm still not certain that those who exploited the > undocumented instructions in any of these chips saved much in the way of > speed or space. About the only significant exception I can think of is the > 80286 LOADALL instruction, which was only semi-documented by Intel. IIRC, the only truly useful undocumented instruction in the 8085 was the SBC HL,DE equivalent (almost the opposite of DAD D). Using these in a production device never seemed to sit well at any of the firms I worked with -- you never knew when the mask might change and you'd find yourself wondering why things suddenly stopped working... From mbg at world.std.com Thu Apr 27 01:06:17 2006 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan Gentry) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 06:06:17 +0000 Subject: Zemu In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200EE@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <200604251829.k3PITdsm018126@onyx.spiritone.com> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200EE@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <44505F59.10404@world.std.com> I must fess-up to the problem with the RT Zemu, as I wrote it... Bein an RT developer, I usually used the latest and greatest version of RT which we had available. At the time I worked on the RT modules for Zemu, V5.5 of RT was available, and SYSTEM.MLB was available with it. I used it since it was the standard to use it for programs... I used it in everything I worked on, just as the rest of the development team did. The problem is that it means the code cannot be assembled with a version of RT which doesn't have it. That should NOT mean, however, that if one were to get a copy of it that it couldn't be used with an earlier version. I certainly wouldn't try SYSTEM.MLB on a V4 system, but maybe V5 or later... V5.3 *should* work (we were using it internally even before it was released), but there are no guarantees. SYSTEM.MLB isn't, however, some magical file -- it simple was what we used as a centralized library of macros which defined structures within RT-11. If one were to go through the RT Zemu code, they could be derived with a little knowledge of RT. I've had little time to even look into it for quite some time owing to work pressures... +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, PP-ASEL,ST,EMT/B | email: mbg at world.std.com | | Former RT-11 Developer | | | | (s/ at /@/) | | | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ working at Bladelogic, but we're about to move, so the address will be changing... From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Apr 27 00:13:58 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 22:13:58 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <200604192103340090.7DBA9B0E@10.0.0.252> References: <20060417222142.YLOK8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060418110202.HJDT8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <4446E9FD.8050005@DakotaCom.Net> <200604192334.45273.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604192103340090.7DBA9B0E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44505316.8070208@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/19/2006 at 11:34 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: [actually, the attribution should have been mine...] >>> But a Z80 *won't* run 808[05] code. > > Well, a Z80 will run 8085 code that limits itself to 8080 instructions. > But the 8085 has two documented instructions (RIM SIM) that the 8080 > doesn't have--and a few more "undocumented" instructions (nonetheless used > by many embedded programs) that neither the 8080 nor the Z80 has. But the Z80 timings are very different than an 808[05]. Sure, if you are writing an assembler, text editor, etc. this isn't really important. But, if you are trying to catch timing pulses off an RF front end or implementing tight delay loops (e.g., generating sound), you don't want to suddenly discover that each of the paths through your code are nolonger what you thought they would be. (counting T states... blech! something I hope never to have to do again!) > Initially I thought that the Rabbit was a good idea--until I started to > program it. What did you do with (insert a list of instructions)? And an > interesting bug or two. Feh. It was a stupid idea, IMO. Designed to lock people into their device AND toolchain (neither of which seem worthy of much attention). Can you spell ARM? From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Apr 27 00:18:21 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 22:18:21 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <200604201341530495.814C9A1B@10.0.0.252> References: <20060417222142.YLOK8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200604192334.45273.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604192103340090.7DBA9B0E@10.0.0.252> <200604201340.29489.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604201341530495.814C9A1B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4450541D.4000700@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/20/2006 at 1:40 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> I remember some real early magazine articles, and have since found a bit >> of stuff online, that talked about undocumented opcodes for the z80, but >> I've not run across that info for anything else. And it seems to depend a > lot >> on what brand of chip, etc. so I've never been really tempted to use > them. > > Well, since the information seems to be disappearing from the web in favor > of the "multiple copies of a dumb page" documentation, here they are for > your files: > > 08 DSUB HL = HL - BC Subtract BC from HL IIRC, this was actually DSBC (figuratively speaking)... i.e. it subttracted the cy as well. > 10 ARHL HL = HL/2 Arithmetic right shift HL, (Low order bit to Carry) > 18 RDEL DE = DE rotate left 1 Rotate DE left, High order bit to carry > 20 RIM (You already know about this one) > 28 LDHI DE = HL+imm Load DE with HL + immediate value > 30 SIM (You already know about this one) > 38 LDSI DE=SP+imm Load DE with SP + immediate value > CB RSTV Restart to 40H if overflow > D9 SHLX (DE) = HL Store HL in the location pointed to by DE > DD JN5 jump if Flags(5) clear Jump if bit 5 of flags is clear > ED LHLX HL = (DE) Load HL from the location pointed to by DE > FD J5 jump if Flags(5) set Jump if bit 5 of flags is set > > Flag bit 5 is sometimes called the K flag (for Korrect sign). > > AFAIK, all Intel 8085 versions have these implemented. I've heard that the > NEC versions don't, but haven't verified it. > > But I note that one way to tell an 8085 from an 8080 or Z80 is to attempt > to set bits 3 and 5 of the flags register. The 8080 forces both of these > to 0; the Z80 allows both to be set. The 8085 allows setting of bit 5 > only. And a clever way to diagnose a failed data bus is to find the processor stopped at 0x0076. Though it only works on systems with lightly loaded (MOS) busses. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Apr 27 00:24:05 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 22:24:05 -0700 Subject: 8080-family hex vs. octal - was: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <200604200733330915.7FFB6134@10.0.0.252> References: <20060418110202.HJDT8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060420113022.SCGY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <200604200733330915.7FFB6134@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44505575.9020005@DakotaCom.Net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Although I was well aware of the octal grouping of fields in the 8080, I > adopted hex right off from the start, as I did when coding for the 8008. > The problems dealing with "split" 16-bit quantites was too much of a hurdle > to warrant octal. > > As far as memorizing opcodes, that's neither here nor there. While octal's > nice for decoding moves, it's less of an issue for conditionals. There's > still a very recognizable pattern: > > JNZ = C2 > JZ = CA > CNZ = C4 > CZ = CC > RNZ = C0 > RZ = C8 > > JNC = D2 > JC = DA > CNC = D4 > CC = DC > ... Yes, there are similar "patterns" in most instructions (e.g., LXI B/D/H/SP; INX B/D/H; PSH B/D/H; etc.). But, in my experience, you just memorized them because you always saw them in certain combinations: PUSH AF PUSH BC PUSH DE PUSH HL ... POP HL POP DE POP BC POP AF EI RETI I can usually hand disassemble code faster than relying on interactive / batch disassemblers (especially if you have inline data and/or self-modifying code) just because these patterns get to be *so* noticeable that you dont even bother disassembling the code -- you just start writing the commentary for the code! (disassembling without adding commentary is pretty useless) From pdp11 at saccade.com Tue Apr 25 12:24:44 2006 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:24:44 -0700 Subject: Any existing Intel iAPX 432's? (was: Boast of the day) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20060425094237.00b6f728@mail.saccade.com> Hi, >While rummaging around a secret scrapyard, Dan Cohoe and I dug up the >remains of an Intel 432/600 micromainframe, based on the ill fated 432 >processor. This leads to the question: Are the any operable i432 systems still in existence? If so it seems like it'd be incredibly rare. Eric Raymond has documentation and a few parts, but not a complete system: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/intel/iapx432/ The only ones I've ever heard of are Intel's development systems, and I think most of these were "loaned" rather than purchased. I suspect Intel recalled these when the magnitude of the flop was discovered and destroyed them (just speculation). The nail in the coffin seems to be the paper that came out of Patterson's Berkeley lab in '82, demonstrating that it was 10x slower than the 68K Cheers, jp From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 25 14:49:48 2006 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (a.carlini at ntlworld.com) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 20:49:48 +0100 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? - Xyplex, Xylogics, and DEC history In-Reply-To: <20060425184619.2BC1B1099B3@ws6-4.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <002d01c668a1$6a2d87f0$c901a8c0@tempname> David Mitton wrote: > The former DEC terminal server line was spun off to Cabletron, and the > remains live in Enterasys. The DEC terminal servers did indeed go to Cabletron (as did all of NPB iirc). When Cabletron split up, the terminal servers ended up in DNPG. I've lost track of them now, but a few years ago their "legacy" terminal servers line had been sent off somewhere else. FWIW: Enterasys are no more, having been bought up by some management company or other and Riverstone (the other Cabletron spinoff) were sold on the block to Lucent (who almost immediately afterwards seem set to vanish into Alcatel). Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 26 16:03:48 2006 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (a.carlini at ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 22:03:48 +0100 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <20060426202921.QVIV20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <000501c66974$eb535e30$c901a8c0@tempname> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Thanks guys for the info -- interesting about the x86 emulator to run > the video BIOS. > > Looks like this machine is completely dead - I can't get any activity > from the video or serial ports - no beeps either. If it was a DEC-produced board there should be a part number (or several part numbers) of the form xx-xxxxx-xx. That would identify it enough to (almost certainly) find the relevant manuals. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Apr 26 05:17:40 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 12:17:40 +0200 Subject: Zemu Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816CC@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi Zane, here is the updated zipped RL02 disk container. It has Zemu 1.10 just released by Johnny. I changed the hex fields into octal fields ... You might first try the earlier sent zip, and then this new one, to see a possible difference. If you want a zip file with the original Zemu 1.10 release from Johnny (without my hex->octal adjustment) just ask, and I'll zip it for you. thanks, - Henk. > Rats, I was afraid that PUTR was still the only way to do > this. Can you email me a copy of zemu.dsk? I don't > currently have a system setup that will run PUTR. > > I can at least see if it will still build under RT-11 5.7. > While I was working on learning MACRO-11 a few years ago, > real life stepped in, so I doubt I can do much in the way of > fixing actual problems. > > Zane > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 26 17:07:00 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need info on an HP 8-bit scsi card In-Reply-To: <200604250416390613.06E27610@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <20060426220700.24365.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> dude, my gosh, had no intention of squeezing it into a W2K box. Was hoping it would function as a hard disk controller (kinda figured it was proprietary though, not unlike the scsi cards Iomega supplied for their ZIP drives). While on the topic of old scsi's, which hard drives wouldn't be compatible with an 8-bit scsi card? --- Bruce Lane wrote: > Hi, Chris, > > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** > > On 23-Apr-06 at 21:03 Chris M wrote: > > >has an NCR 53c400 chip, an als245, and not much > else. > >4 dip swiches, presumably (hopefully) for setting > the > >id. I have plans for this bad boy... > > I've seen plenty of these. They're very basic > cards, designed as a dedicated interface for > SCSI-based HP scanners. They have no BIOS or > firmware, and I question if they will work with > anything outside of the original HP scanner support > software. > > I would, admittedly, be curious to know how a > Windows 2000 machine reacts to the installation of > such a card. I believe the 53C400 is supported, but > I can't recall for certain. > > Happy tweaking. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, > Blue Feather Technologies -- > http://www.bluefeathertech.com > kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m > "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it > have been equipped with surreal ports?" > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 26 17:55:00 2006 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (a.carlini at ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:55:00 +0100 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <00b301c66983$799555a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <000901c66984$74fc5010$c901a8c0@tempname> John Allain wrote: > Anybody dismiss this as not a Multia yet? > Those things had tiny mainboards and a tendency > to burn themselves out, IE no responses to pwon. > They did certainly come with 4 mem slots and > 166mhz Alphas. I didn't think that Multias were ATX format. That sounds a lot more like the later 164LX/SX boards (or the equivalent 3rd party boards). Then again, I've never looked inside a Multia. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From martyjr1910 at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 25 12:07:09 2006 From: martyjr1910 at sbcglobal.net (M. Murphy) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Qwint Systems? Message-ID: <20060425170709.44743.qmail@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Steve, Happened to type in Qwint Systems and ran into your web site. I ran into stuff I had saved from when they had moved from Northbrook to Lincolnshire that I think I garbage picked. I also have a brand new teleprinter in its original plastic shipping brief case. with the manual and several sets of software that are for that unit. I also think i have a few of the old time modems, and some of the prom burners to (black boxes with the key pads) if you rememeber those. Oh well any interest hit me back Marty From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Apr 27 01:18:31 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:18:31 -0700 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <20060427020931.WNUV20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060426221033.PLOY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060427020931.WNUV20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <44506237.9050808@msm.umr.edu> Dave Dunfield wrote: > >Now - if I could get VMS running on this, that would be fun! > >Dave > > Dave, We ran Dec Unix on it, and up to a 500 mhz version that our company prefered. The network and video cards that were supported by the unix were rare, may not be now, but with the right SCSI controller, they were nice machines, though as someone said slow. I dont think our application ever used over 3% of the cpu though, and the 500mhz was mainly nice because it restored faster, and made administration easier. the app was mostly idling to do the task it had to do. Jim From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Apr 27 01:27:38 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:27:38 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <20060420113022.SCGY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060418110202.HJDT8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060420113022.SCGY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4450645A.3020309@DakotaCom.Net> Dave Dunfield wrote: >>> But the Z80 and the 8085 are both based on the 8080 architecture >>> and instruction set - so much so that they will both run the vast >>> majority of 8080 code. >> But that's a fallacy. You have to tweek the code in almost >> all cases (especially if you are designing embedded systems >> and not "desktop applications"). So, a smarter approach is >> to handle things at the *source* level instead of the *object*. > > Context: Mid 70's - several guys I knew (myself included) > had little boards with wire-wrapped 8080's, some switches and Sure! I've still got a few Augat panels with "big" DRAM arrays built out of 16Kx1 DRAMs that I hand wrapped (too risky to do on perfboard to get a good solid Vcc/GND). > a few bytes of RAM ... Didn't matter how "smart" you were, you > worked at the machine level - hand assembling and entering > opcodes. > > Thats when I first observed the octal/hex split - some guys chose > Octal for the obvious advantages in hand-coding, I went hex due > to my background... Dunno. In my case, it was converting i4004 assembly language to i8085 assembly language. The i4004 listings were all in Hex so it (as were the i8085) so the idea of using anything other than hex to represent data, etc never came up. OTOH, with the Nova, octal seemed "normal". But "split octal" on the Z80 was an abomination. >>> Is anyone really suggesting that it's an >>> "accident" that the Z80 happens to run 8080 code ... or did >>> Zilog begin with the 8080 instruction set definition (hence my point >>> that they (Zilog) did not make the decision on the bit arrangements >>> of the opcoodes). >> But a Z80 *won't* run 808[05] code. Nor will a 64180 run >> Z80 code. (and "Rabbits" don't run anything! :> ) Zilog made >> a very conscious decision to make a "different 808x". Everything >> from the pinouts, peripherals available, bus timing, etc. >> (where did RST 5.5 go? etc.). Nor did they adhere to >> Intel's mnemonics (copywritten?) -- though converting from >> one to the other is almost trivial with even the macroassemblers >> available back then. Tek used a still different set of >> opcodes in their tools, etc. > > Although it's possible to create software that will run on an 8080 > (or an 8085) and not a Z80 (I used to do this to really annoy a > friend who had a Cromemco Z80 system when I still used the > Altair 8080 :-) ... By and large, the Z80 is a superset of the > 8080 - There are some flag differences which prevent it from > being a fully proper superset, however these affected very little > "real" code. How do you define "real" code? If you're on a boat at sea and your navigation system suddenly decides that this opcode should not behave the way it "does", you might get a bit annoyed when you can't find any of your lobster pots, etc. I think code that controls the rudder of a several ton vessel moving at 20 knots is just as "real" as the code that draws a tic tac toe board on a glass tty... :-( > Macroassemblers? My first 8080 design had only "reset", "Deposit", > "next" and "run" switches ... if you made a mistake entering an opcode > you had to start all over again from 0000 0000 0000 0000. > > (or 00 000 000 00 000 000 if you are from the Octal camp) > > PS: RST 5.5 "went" the same place that SIM and RIM "went" ... > it stayed in the primordial nothingness which existed before > creation (RST 5.5 is an 8085 extension - the Z80 was based > on the 8080, never the 8085 - so RST 5.5 never existed as > far as the Z80 was concerned). > >>>> And, there is no reason why xx ddd sss is any *better* than >>>> xs dsd sdx or sd xxd ssd for an instruction encoding. *We* >>>> used (split) octal because our MTOS supported hot patching >>>> and it was convenient to "hand assemble" code patches on the >>>> fly to fix bugs, etc. (gdb wasn't around for an 8080 in ~1976) >>> Doesn't this suggest that xxdddsss actually was *better* - since >>> you took advantage of the alignment with octal notation to make it >>> easier to hand-assemble... >> But that's the point; it *doesn't* help you hand assemble. >> 1/4 of the opcode space is devoted to 8 bit moves. Yet, >> I find 8 bit moves seldom used (at least in any of the >> code that I've written/maintained). Sure, I may want to: >> LD D,H >> LD E,L >> to save a *copy* of r.HL before indexing off of it >> ADD HL,BC >> But, how often do you LD C,H or LD L,B etc? > > Actually, you did have to MOV things fairly often on the > 8080 (dedicated registers and all - don't forget that in spite > of Intel always documenting it separately, 'M' was one of the > Octal register representations). Sure, but that's just two instructions -- mov a to memory and move memory to a. I looked through two 8085 product listings (12KB and 16KB). Aside from MVI's and MOV A/M,M/A, the only other MOV was MOV A,B or MOV A,D (followed by ORA C and ORA E, respectively). *Maybe* that's just a matter of personal style -- but the code reflects 3 or 4 different authors so obviously we all shared similar thoughts on how to use the processors resources. > But more importantly - It's not just MOV ... IIRC, the following > instructions on the 8080 have an octal field encoded: > > "MOV", "MVI", "ADD", "ADC", "SUB", "SBB", "INR", "DCR", > "ANA", "XRA", "ORA", "CMP", > "JZ", "JNZ", "JC", "JNC", "JP", "JM", "JPE", "JPO", > "CZ", "CNZ", "CC", "CNC", "CP", "CM", "CPE", "CPO", > "RC", "RNZ", "RC", "RNC", "RP", "RM", "RPE", "RPO", > "RST" Sure, and LXI, PSH, POP, INX have a "quad" field. What's your point? How does memorizing the mappings of registers to 3 bit fields help you remember the mappings of condition codes to *that* 3 bit field? Bottom line, you end up having to just memorize the opcodes that you use frequently -- and remember WHERE on the quick reference card each of the other opcodes will be found. > As to how often I use these instruction - how about some hard > data instead of conjecture - I wrote a program to analyze 8080 > source, and launched it against two of my earliest code examples, > namely - a small 8080 Monitor and BASIC interpreter that I wrote > for the UNB computer club in the 70's: > > In the output below: > Directives - are any non-opcode source lines, EQU, ORG, DB etc. > Octal opcodes - are opcodes from the above list (with an octal field in them) > Non-octal opcodes - are all other opcodes (which don't have an octal field) > > Filename : MONITOR.ASM > Total lines : 645 > Comment/blank : 100 > Directives : 39 > Octal opcodes : 200 > Non-octal opcodes: 306 > > Looks like 2/3 of the instructions encoded in my monitor have at least one > octal field representation. > > Filename : BASIC.ASM > Total lines : 1975 > Comment/blank : 386 > Directives : 143 > Octal opcodes : 494 > Non-octal opcodes: 952 > > Looks like more than 1/2 of the instructions encoded in my BASIC have > at least one octal field. But, again, that doesn't *mean* anything. Every JMP/CALL has an octal field. But, do you REMEMBER them as "JMP ALWAYS" and "CALL ALWAYS" and thus synthesize the opcodes from a 5 bit template with an "ALWAYS" condition? Or, do you just remember that C3 is JMP and CD is CALL? > Note that I have only use the octal fields depicted in the Intel databook > (mainly the registers, the conditional coding and the RST vector) - in > practice (and this is going way back now) ... Octal makes sense for > other parts of the opcode as well - for example, all arithmetic opcodes > are encoded as 10 rrr aaa > Where aaa is a triplet encoding the arithmetic operation. And you remember *those* encodings, as well?? I probably used 20-25 opcodes in 90% of what I wrote. Aside from initial system startup (LXI SP, etc.), I can probably disassemble most of what I'd written just by keeping those 20 opcodes frsh in my mind (and, when disassembling, your memory keeps getting refreshed as you use certain code fragments over and over again) >> And, tracking 16 bit load/stores (LXI's, PUSH's, etc.) >> requires memorizing an encoding for *4* possible arguments. > > Yes - these are included in the "Non-octal" catagory above. > >> And who can recall the clever encoding of all of the >> conditionals? > > Tough if you think in hex (the conditon field would be split across two > nibbles ... but if you think in Octal, it's not so tough ... all conditions > are represented in the second triplet (from the right): > 000 = 0 = NZ > 001 = 1 = Z > 010 = 2 = NC > 011 = 3 = C > 100 = 4 = PO > 101 = 5 = PE > 110 = 6 = P > 111 = 7 = M > All transfer instruction are encoded: 11 ccc xxx > Where xxis: > 000 = Rcondition > 010 = Jcondition > 100 = Ccondition Yeah, and my quick reference card gives them all nice HEX values that I can dig up just as easy as you can build an opcode using all of these little tables. >>> As noted earlier, I happen to be from the "hex" camp ... but I don't >>> think it's fair to dismiss the octal guys as "nuts" ... the use of octal Hmmm... *I* don't recall calling anyone "nuts". Rather, this started with my observation: When I was developing Z80-based products, an ongoing *battle* was the use of hex vs. "split octal" (e.g., 0xFFFF -> 0377 0377). The octal camp claimed the Z80 was an "octal machine" (oh, really?) and, for "proof", showed how so many of the opcodes could be committed to memory just my noting the source & destination register "codes" and packing them into an octal representation: xx xxx xxx (of course, I wonder how well their argument would stand up if Zilog had opted to encode the register fields as: xs dds dsx?? :> ) Octal? Hex? Just give me a symbolic debugger and let *it* keep track of these minutae... >>> on the 8080 did have some benefit, and there were a lot of people >>> who went that route - to ignore or discount this does not present an >>> accurate depiction of the time period. >> When I worked on 8085's, we let the MDS-800 handle the assemblies. >> Burn a set of EPROMs (2 hours!), plug into the target and hope >> you've stubbed enough places in the code so you could figure out >> where it was based on examining odd display patterns, etc. >> Stare at listings, burn another set of EPROMs after lunch. >> Two turns of the crank in an 8 hour shift. Did the choice of >> opcode assignments increase productivity?? > > Probably not - but I seem to recall that even though the 8080 was > a rather expensive chip to get, it still didn't always come with an > MDS-800 - I don't recall any of the guys in our "homebrew computer > club" having an MDS-800 (or any production computer for that > matter). Sure. But, the rules applying to hobbyists are obviously different than those applying to corporations trying to bring products to market. You wouldn't suggest we NOT purchase the MDS and, instead, get a bunch of SDK's wired to our target hardware? > Some of the guys claimed that thinking of the opcode in Octal made > it much easier for them ... All I am saying is that I can see some > validity to their claim. And the last P in my comment (above) was: Octal? Hex? Just give me a symbolic debugger and let *it* keep track of these minutae... I don't imagine those hobbyists *prefer* using hex/decimal keypads and 7 segment displays to write their code? >> When I was doing Z80-based designs (in the "split octal" world), >> a helluva lot of energy was expended to support the "octal" >> encoding -- rewriting the Zilog assembler to generate listings >> in octal (INCLUDING displaying addresses in split octal!), >> building run-time "monitors" to examine and patch code images >> during execution, writing the associated software to do so, etc. > > This would be because you didn't work in Octal (split or otherwise). > The same could be said for any encoding scheme - If some of your > users had demanded to use base 13 this too would have presented a > challange to you - but at least the "ultimate answer" would work out > correctly: (6x9=42 in base 13 :-) You're missing the point: it was a waste of time to invest all that energy in half-*ssed tools instead of moving to more "current" technology. If your goal is to bring a product to market (NOT to deal with hobbyists), you devote your resources to things that can measurably improve your productivity. Throwing resources (software and hardware development time and money) on tools that don't make a dramatic increase in your productivity is just foolish. Like writing code in assembler when you could just as readily use a HLL. >> I'm convinced the fact that you could get a ten-key >> keypad and an inexpensive LCD to display 6 digit SPLIT octal >> values had more of an impact on the octal decision than >> anything about the opcode encoding -- despite the fact that >> it made USING the tools more difficult (since you can only >> display a 16 bit value -- *address* -- in 6 digits, you have >> to multiplex the display to let the user see the *data* at >> that address :< ). > > That was certainly part of it - as was the fact that 7447's could > display Octal quite nicely, but didn't work so well with Hex. > But I would also say that a higher percentage of single-board > 8080 machines used Octal - because it does make sense > with the instruction set. But, you're still dealing with the hobbyist world. Every product *we* shipped was a "single board 808x/4004 machine"... yet, they didn't "use octal" (and we shipped thousands and thousands of machines). If you're a hobbyist, your time is (often) worth nothing. I've watched people disassemble video arcade pieces "by hand" and reverse engineer all of the copy protection hacks in the code. Um, *why*? Because they are curious and have decided that they can AFFORD the time to engage in this activity. But a *business* would never waste their time on this -- unless there was some key IP that they were after, etc. (there are firms that expend a great deal of resources on these sorts of activities!) >> I recall getting an EM-180 and quickly distancing myself >> from the octal vs. hex debate... I'll use *symbols* instead >> of dicking around with bit groupings. > > Why even bother with that ... why not just use mouse clicks > and "drag and drop". Mid 70's. No GUIs. No mice. > In the days of wirewrap systems, homebrew front panels > and pencil and pad assemblers, bit groupings mattered. > > One question though --- since you use symbols and don't > "dick around" with bit groupings ... why is the use of Hex > over Octal so important to you? ... wouldn't one be just as > good as the other to the high level view (like some detail > burried way down in the mouse driver that you don't need > to care about when you click). Hex vs.Octal is NOT important to me. Please reread my original comment: Octal? Hex? Just give me a symbolic debugger and let *it* keep track of these minutae... >>> Now why some people chose octal for other processors, which >>> didn't have an architectural slant toward 8 is more of a mystery >>> to me.... >> I think the fact that 0..7 fits in a decimal representation >> says a lot about the "why". :-( Amazing to consider how >> much "resources" got wasted on silly (in hindsight) decisions. >> Sort of like PC (and other) BIOS decisions placing silly >> restrictions on the size of a disk or where the boot code >> can be located, etc. > > I never saw it as a huge waste of "resources" - In the early You didn't rewrite ("re-bug") WORKING development tools in a production environment to add these "features". If you've got an assembler, linkage editor, etc. that all WORK but produce HEX listings, why rewrite them to spit out listings in split octal? Including addresses (of opcodes, arguments, link maps, etc.) Are you going to gain that much in terms of productivity to offset the time spent doing this? And the bugs that get introduced in the process? Wouldn't it be better to just live with the hex listings and purchase a hex keypad for your "run-time monitor"? After all, you're only going to build a handful of those... what's it going to cost you vs. a decimal/octal keypad -- an extra $10?? Spend the resources that you "wasted" hacking the toolchain to purchase another *real* development system. Or, a symbolic debugger. Etc. Don't sell your adherence to The Old Ways as a virtue -- concentrate on getting ahead of the curve and your competition! > days, some guys liked Octal, some guys liked hex - I worked > mainly in hex, but I didn't have a great deal of trouble going > back and forth - you were happy just to find someone who > knew the language - the particular dialect that he chose didn't > seem all that important at the time. > > Clearly the debate can rage on forever - If you like hex, and > consider it the "only game in town", then thats OK by me. I > happen to see advantages to both viewpoints. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Apr 27 01:28:53 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:28:53 -0700 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <20060426212259.U38387@shell.lmi.net> References: <200604270007.57720.pat@computer-refuge.org> <445045A8.4000603@mindspring.com> <20060426212259.U38387@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <445064A5.8010004@msm.umr.edu> Fred Cisin wrote: >>Where's the machines to go with those!? >> >> > >When you see a moosehead on the wall, >it's unlikely that the rest of the moose is in the next room. > > > Dang, you spoiled my illusion about that. I guess there is no Santa Claus either will be the next thing you'll tell me. I wonder if the 6$ guy will actually go thru with it, or whether it'll get relisted. I doubt that Mr. Corestore would have so many in his garage, if he bought them off ebay, if dkdkk had been around when they were all over the place then. with prices like this it seems like it may be time to fab up some reproductions, with Hercules SBC's inside blink'n the lights. I would almost buy such a gizmo, and have been sorely tempted to go for one of the Pdp 8's on a wall that are around, and so nice. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Apr 27 01:32:53 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:32:53 -0700 Subject: Any existing Intel iAPX 432's? In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20060425094237.00b6f728@mail.saccade.com> References: <5.1.1.5.2.20060425094237.00b6f728@mail.saccade.com> Message-ID: <44506595.7010400@msm.umr.edu> J. Peterson wrote: > Hi, > > > The only ones I've ever heard of are Intel's development systems, and I > think most of these were "loaned" rather than purchased. I suspect Intel > recalled these when the magnitude of the flop was discovered and > destroyed them (just speculation). A friend of mine worked for BiiN which developed a database co-processor based initially on the 432. Later the effort was shifted to use other processors, and eventually it was just a Siemens/Intel effort before finally being dissolved completely. I have a Multibus 432 processor board that would probably work somewhere, if it was ever any good. I bought it at a swap meet from someone around LA, so i don't know if it ever worked, however. Jim From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Apr 27 01:44:45 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:44:45 -0700 Subject: American Automation emulators? In-Reply-To: <44501671.8020700@msm.umr.edu> References: <3.0.6.16.20060426193921.1877061a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060426193921.1877061a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060426202908.463706e2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <44501671.8020700@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4450685D.6000905@DakotaCom.Net> jim stephens wrote: > Joe R. wrote: > >> Jim, >> >> Actually I'm just guessing that these are emulator boards. I'm not >> positive what they are. >> > I suspect you have some ezpro adapter cards. There was a largeish box > that was the > main system that these attached to, about the size of a large cereal box > (really large). More like TWO boxes of cereal back-to-back (only 15 pounds heavier!) > It had a terminal attached to it, and was serially controlled, since it > predated all the gui crap that is around today. It can talk to a PC running a debugger (e.g., DB6802) > We have one or two stashed around here, but they are rare. I have only > seen two > on Ebay in several years that were worth buying. I guess people kept > the parts > that were labeled related to target processors, and trashed the main box > for some reason. Power supplies were a problem in some units. > The ML 4100 analyzer would not have a socket on it, and would have a 60 pin > cable that goes to the 4100's front connector. Analyzer pods would be very different looking than emulator pods. The former were black plastic. The latter were usually a beige texture painted metal box (hinged lid, short but very large footprint) > The ML 4400 has to have special analog circuits on the pods, and has > several > plug in cards, ranging up to some that are pretty competitive with the > HP 16500s > with 2m x 500mhz deep capture cards in them. The bad news is that the pods > are rare, as most ML4400's were married with Pentium or Pentium Pro run > controls that had custom logic for the analyzer, and no general purpose way > to hook up to the devices under test. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu Apr 27 01:46:37 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 08:46:37 +0200 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816D1@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim stephens > Sent: donderdag 27 april 2006 8:29 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: F*ck a f*cking duck > > with prices like this it seems like it may be time to fab up > some reproductions, with Hercules SBC's inside blink'n the > lights. I would almost buy such a gizmo, and have been > sorely tempted to go for one of the Pdp 8's on a wall that > are around, and so nice. Drool on www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/pdp8/pdp8startpage.html or www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/cons1170/cons70startpage.html Have a *good* look at the front panel of the SBC6120, and compare it with a real pdp8/e. You will notice that a few switches are missing. Then check out my front panel ... Given the Blinkenlight board set, you can build a replica yourself either by (a lot of) DYI, or by grabbing a panel of eBay and make a box around it. I am waiting on the arrival of an order of IDC headers for the I/O Board to finish the 11/70 console ... - Henk, PA8PDP. BTW, I will finish the 11/70 console and the first chap that offers $10,000.- will get it :-) - working, running RT11, Advent and perhaps RSX with the chasing light pattern ... This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Apr 27 01:50:41 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:50:41 -0700 Subject: American Automation emulators? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060426202908.463706e2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060426193921.1877061a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060426193921.1877061a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060426202908.463706e2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <445069C1.4060408@DakotaCom.Net> Joe R. wrote: > Jim, > > Actually I'm just guessing that these are emulator boards. I'm not > positive what they are. > > I have several of these but ot the machine that they go into, just the > pods and interface boards. The pods that are attached to interface boards > with two ribbon cables. There's also a short ribbon cable that connects to > the pod and to a DIP plug that looks like it's supposed to replace a CPU. > The pods are in metal box about 10 x 7 inches square and slightly over an > inch thick. The bottom over on the pod is hinged and you can open it up and > see the emulator card. This card is marked 6800/02/08. The interface card > is about 6 x 10 inches square and has female connectors that are made to > fit over small male pins. I don't know the name of these connectors but it > looks like the same connectors that used on the SS-50 computer cards. I'll > try to get some pictures tomorrow. The box is the emulator pod. The interface from the pod to the emulator *card* (what you call the interface card) varies based on the emulator itself (think of the pod and the emulator card as a single assembly that is split to minimize the amount of logic that needs to be out near the target system -- that the emulator pod plugs into). The interface from the emulator card to the rest of the "system" is somewhat standardized. I can dig up details of the connector signals if necessary (though you really won't be able to *do* much with that info as it is also "proprietary"). There is also often a ribbon cable on the "outside" edge of the emulator card that ties in to the high speed memory card on some emulators (IIRC). From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Apr 27 01:52:06 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:52:06 -0700 Subject: American Automation emulators? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060426203939.413f6edc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060426203939.413f6edc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <44506A16.2050805@DakotaCom.Net> Joe R. wrote: > Jim, > > I just did a Google search for American Automation EZ-pro and found ebay > auction #7590626029. The pod shown in the picture there looks EXACTLY like > mine including the slope front but mine doesn't have the CPU number on the The CPU number is just some generic stick-on digits. > box. So it looks like that's what I have. I'll get a more complete list of > what I have tomorrow. Thanks for the tip. > > BTW when I searched for American Amutomation before I did find the link > to Arium and I thought that might be what I was looking for but the link > was dead! From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 01:51:23 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 02:51:23 -0400 Subject: Boast of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I still own Dan a TTL computer. Will he pass by Cleveland this year? On 4/22/06, William Donzelli wrote: > While rummaging around a secret scrapyard, Dan Cohoe and I dug up the > remains of an Intel 432/600 micromainframe, based on the ill fated 432 > processor. All that was left in the pile was the plastic case parts and > front panel, power supply and keyboard. > > That is all... > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > > From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Apr 27 01:55:58 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:55:58 -0700 Subject: American Automation emulators? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060426204855.413f4c6e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060426204855.413f4c6e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <44506AFE.7090405@DakotaCom.Net> Joe R. wrote: > Oh, what the hell! I sent outside and dug the rest of the stuff out of > the car. Here's what I have: > > 6800/02/08, 65xx, 8085, Z-80 and 27xx (programmer?). Looks like a nice > collection of vintage stuff! Each of the CPU's would consist of an emulator pod and an emulator card (see other post of mine). More recent (less ancient? :> ) emulators moved much of the electronics into the pod (instead of the emulator card). E.g., the 68010 pod is the size of a large *book*! The 27xx I suspect is a very *small* pod (like 3x5?) used to program EPROMs. It requires a programmer card in the EZ-Pro to function (located adjacent to the serial I/O card, IIRC). > I have both pods and interface cards for each of them. In fact, this > stuff looks NEW! Most of it is still wrapped in foam plastic sheeting and > it's VERY clean. From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Apr 27 02:20:53 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 00:20:53 -0700 Subject: ISO: SGI VW320 parts Message-ID: <445070D5.2050508@DakotaCom.Net> Hi, I've inherited a VW320 but it is missing the drive cage. If I can get it running, I'd also be looking for some extra memory for it (wacky 40 bit? modules). I *think* I can replace the single CPU with a pair of off-the-shelf "matched" processors? Or, is this box not worth the time to get it running? Thanks! --don From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Apr 27 02:24:36 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 00:24:36 -0700 Subject: NCD "secure" keyboard Message-ID: <445071B4.6050402@DakotaCom.Net> Hi, Has anyone ever *seen* one of these? Or, is it a "documentation shortcoming"? Thanks! --don From elf at ucsd.edu Thu Apr 27 04:01:55 2006 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric F.) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 02:01:55 -0700 Subject: DUNGEON (Zork) & MIT's 545 Tech. Sq. In-Reply-To: <200604260721.k3Q7LjYK047349@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604260721.k3Q7LjYK047349@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060427015353.02a4d578@popmail.ucsd.edu> Johnny Billquist wrote: > If ZORK were ever to run on any other machine > that machine first and foremost would have to > have MDL. You know if SDS had that? A quick scan of my MDL manuals: "The MDL Programming Language" by Galley & Pfister and "The MDL Programming Environment" by Lebling (both published by Laboratory for Computer Science @ MIT) show that MDL only ran on ITS, Tenex, and TOPS-20. SDS, on the other hand, ran the CP-V operating system. So I suppose that Zork never did make it onto an SDS machine. I do, however, clearly remember an SDS machine on the 9th floor at 545 Tech Sq. during my tour back in the early 80s. I was a youngin' though, and was just in heaven being so close to all these cool machines which I had only been accessing through a TIP from across the country (via the RAND-TIP in Los Angeles). Furthermore, I only had access to a printing terminal back home (300 baud, thermal paper, acoustic (loose fitting, noisy) coupler) -- so once I was given the tour, and then a seat at a CRT with a 9600 baud connection, well, I don't think I slept for 48 hours... Those were the days... only taking a break at sunrise for a food run with some of the other all-nighters hanging out there. Eventually, the folks at RAND caught up with my (non-authorized) usage -- and politely asked my to cease accessing the TIP. This was my first experience of going through a "withdrawal" syndrome -- I practically lived on those MIT machines (via their Tourist accounts they gave out.) -Eric F. From james.rice at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 05:52:12 2006 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 05:52:12 -0500 Subject: ISO: SGI VW320 parts In-Reply-To: <445070D5.2050508@DakotaCom.Net> References: <445070D5.2050508@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: The memory shows up on ebay all the time. Yes, you can use std slot 1 processors with 100mhz bus speed. A few people have been using Sloket boards with good results to adapt socket 370 flip chips to the 320. Depending on the motherboard revision, you can run up to 1ghz cpu's. You need to check on the two VRM modules to see if they are present. They sell on ebay occasionally too. Setup and installation of Win NT or Win2k is a bit tricky. You have to set up a small FAT partition as the first partition to load the ARC loader into. The Sgi320, does not have a BIOS but has a real Unix box style PROM monitor. To spoof Windows into loading and booting, you load the ARC loader and then Windows boots within a Window of the ARC loader. All necessary files are available on Sgi's website. If you are going to load Win2k, you also need to select a special Sgi320 HAL at first boot of the installation disk. When the Windows installer prompts you to "Press F6 to select a disk controller" press F5 instead. Then select the SgiMP HAL. Once you have it running, it makes a remarkable fast and stable Windows box. It's probably the only Windows box that I have ever had a BSOD on. On 4/27/06, Don Y wrote: > Hi, > > I've inherited a VW320 but it is missing the drive cage. > If I can get it running, I'd also be looking for some > extra memory for it (wacky 40 bit? modules). > > I *think* I can replace the single CPU with a pair > of off-the-shelf "matched" processors? > > Or, is this box not worth the time to get it running? > > Thanks! > --don > -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers www.blackcube.org/personal/index.html - Personal web page From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 27 07:28:11 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 07:28:11 -0500 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <445064A5.8010004@msm.umr.edu> References: <200604270007.57720.pat@computer-refuge.org> <445045A8.4000603@mindspring.com> <20060426212259.U38387@shell.lmi.net> <445064A5.8010004@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060427072718.049fac28@mail> At 01:28 AM 4/27/2006, jim stephens wrote: >Dang, you spoiled my illusion about that. I guess there is no Santa Claus >either will be the next thing you'll tell me. >I wonder if the 6$ guy will actually go thru with it, or whether it'll get relisted. Maybe '6$' is the shill the seller used to drive up 'dkdkk's price. :-) - John From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Apr 27 08:39:28 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 08:39:28 -0500 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <4450645A.3020309@DakotaCom.Net> References: <20060420113022.SCGY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20060427124040.CAFW8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > > Although it's possible to create software that will run on an 8080 > > (or an 8085) and not a Z80 (I used to do this to really annoy a > > friend who had a Cromemco Z80 system when I still used the > > Altair 8080 :-) ... By and large, the Z80 is a superset of the > > 8080 - There are some flag differences which prevent it from > > being a fully proper superset, however these affected very little > > "real" code. > > How do you define "real" code? If you're on a boat at sea and > your navigation system suddenly decides that this opcode should > not behave the way it "does", you might get a bit annoyed > when you can't find any of your lobster pots, etc. I think code > that controls the rudder of a several ton vessel moving at 20 > knots is just as "real" as the code that draws a tic tac toe > board on a glass tty... :-( By "real" code I refer to the 1000s of programs that ran under CP/M on either an 8080 or Z80 with no problems, I also refer to the large volume of code that I personally wrote and an quite confident that it would run on either chip. If you are writing an embedded or critical system (like a ship navigation system) then you should be damn sure about a lot more detail of the final system than just which CPU it will run on - and I agree completely that for a system of this nature, you would want to spec every detail in the final implementation - but how many 8080 or Z80 based navigation systems were implemented compared to the large 8080/Z80 "general purpose computer" software base? By "real" code, I am referring to the base of software that was likely to be run on either processor. I would guess that Zilog thought this was reasonable as well - it would seem odd for them to have made the CPU 99% compaible with the 8080 and then put in a significantly incompatible difference (hey guys - lets swap the INR A and HLT opcode!) > > Actually, you did have to MOV things fairly often on the > > 8080 (dedicated registers and all - don't forget that in spite > > of Intel always documenting it separately, 'M' was one of the > > Octal register representations). > > Sure, but that's just two instructions -- mov a to memory and > move memory to a. No, you also have MVI r,M, ADD M, SUB M, ADC M, SBB M, CMP M ... > > But more importantly - It's not just MOV ... IIRC, the following > > instructions on the 8080 have an octal field encoded: > > > > "MOV", "MVI", "ADD", "ADC", "SUB", "SBB", "INR", "DCR", > > "ANA", "XRA", "ORA", "CMP", > > "JZ", "JNZ", "JC", "JNC", "JP", "JM", "JPE", "JPO", > > "CZ", "CNZ", "CC", "CNC", "CP", "CM", "CPE", "CPO", > > "RC", "RNZ", "RC", "RNC", "RP", "RM", "RPE", "RPO", > > "RST" > > Sure, and LXI, PSH, POP, INX have a "quad" field. > What's your point? How does memorizing the mappings of > registers to 3 bit fields help you remember the mappings > of condition codes to *that* 3 bit field? > > Bottom line, you end up having to just memorize the opcodes > that you use frequently -- and remember WHERE on the quick > reference card each of the other opcodes will be found. Definately in hex (which is what I did - I think I still have some of my "reference cards" that I made and printed out on the university system). But I knew at least one guy who was "very octal", and he knew most of the instruction set without a reference card - He explained to me once that he did it by rememberng the meaning of the various triplets. I can see that if you "think" in Octal, this would make sense to do (I don't). > > As to how often I use these instruction - how about some hard > > data instead of conjecture - I wrote a program to analyze 8080 > > source, and launched it against two of my earliest code examples, > > namely - a small 8080 Monitor and BASIC interpreter that I wrote > > for the UNB computer club in the 70's: > > > > In the output below: > > Directives - are any non-opcode source lines, EQU, ORG, DB etc. > > Octal opcodes - are opcodes from the above list (with an octal field in them) > > Non-octal opcodes - are all other opcodes (which don't have an octal field) > > > > Filename : MONITOR.ASM > > Total lines : 645 > > Comment/blank : 100 > > Directives : 39 > > Octal opcodes : 200 > > Non-octal opcodes: 306 > > > > Looks like 2/3 of the instructions encoded in my monitor have at least one > > octal field representation. > > > > Filename : BASIC.ASM > > Total lines : 1975 > > Comment/blank : 386 > > Directives : 143 > > Octal opcodes : 494 > > Non-octal opcodes: 952 > > > > Looks like more than 1/2 of the instructions encoded in my BASIC have > > at least one octal field. > > But, again, that doesn't *mean* anything. Every JMP/CALL has an > octal field. But, do you REMEMBER them as "JMP ALWAYS" and > "CALL ALWAYS" and thus synthesize the opcodes from a 5 bit > template with an "ALWAYS" condition? Or, do you just remember > that C3 is JMP and CD is CALL? No, I don't - partly because the "always" versions of these instructions are NOT encoded with a conditional triplet, and partly because I tended to just remember the opcodes for the instructions that I used - but I knew guys who could instantly give you the octal representation for any of the conditional transfer instructions. Very few of us hex guys could keep them all in (we new Z, NZ, C, NC - P & M when were were coding and PE/PO I always had to lookup - hardly ever used them). > > Note that I have only use the octal fields depicted in the Intel databook > > (mainly the registers, the conditional coding and the RST vector) - in > > practice (and this is going way back now) ... Octal makes sense for > > other parts of the opcode as well - for example, all arithmetic opcodes > > are encoded as 10 rrr aaa > > Where aaa is a triplet encoding the arithmetic operation. > > And you remember *those* encodings, as well?? No, I used my cheat sheet - but the guy I referred to above could write down any arithemetic opcode as three octal digits - two bits for "arithmetic", three bits for "register", and three bits for "operation". > Yeah, and my quick reference card gives them all nice > HEX values that I can dig up just as easy as you can > build an opcode using all of these little tables. I don't think so - (well with me probably, but up against one of the good Octal guys no) - they could write the opcode down instantly, and you would have to take time to look at the reference card. > >>> As noted earlier, I happen to be from the "hex" camp ... but I don't > >>> think it's fair to dismiss the octal guys as "nuts" ... the use of octal > > Hmmm... *I* don't recall calling anyone "nuts". Rather, this started > with my observation: > > When I was developing Z80-based products, an ongoing *battle* > was the use of hex vs. "split octal" (e.g., 0xFFFF -> 0377 0377). > The octal camp claimed the Z80 was an "octal machine" (oh, really?) > and, for "proof", showed how so many of the opcodes could be > committed to memory just my noting the source & destination > register "codes" and packing them into an octal representation: > xx xxx xxx (of course, I wonder how well their argument would > stand up if Zilog had opted to encode the register fields > as: xs dds dsx?? :> ) It would appear that the *nuts* was implied: by (oh, really?)m Quotes around "proof", suggestion that the opcode encoding is randomly organized etc. > Octal? Hex? Just give me a symbolic debugger and let *it* > keep track of these minutae... Like your mouse below, symbolic debuggers didn't exist for many of us in the mid 70's. > > Probably not - but I seem to recall that even though the 8080 was > > a rather expensive chip to get, it still didn't always come with an > > MDS-800 - I don't recall any of the guys in our "homebrew computer > > club" having an MDS-800 (or any production computer for that > > matter). > > Sure. But, the rules applying to hobbyists are obviously > different than those applying to corporations trying to bring > products to market. You wouldn't suggest we NOT purchase > the MDS and, instead, get a bunch of SDK's wired to our > target hardware? No, and I'm not even suggesting that you need to learn Octal (or Hex). What I am suggesting is that guys working in different situations than you (actually, from your original posting - guys working in the same situation than you) had valid viewpoints when they thought a little differently than you. It's great that you got to work in a well funded setup in the 70's. A lot of startups came into being during this time (many of whom went on to define much of the industry), and many (most) of these were garage operations without the budget for "professional" tools. Should they have just packed it (oh well, can't afford an MDS-800 - lets try farming instead), or did it make sense that they worked out other means to do the job at hand. Development systems were nowhere near as common as todays PC - many people who worked in the industry didn't have them - Our university didn't have an MDS-800, yet we built and programmed some rather impressive for the time systems. > > Some of the guys claimed that thinking of the opcode in Octal made > > it much easier for them ... All I am saying is that I can see some > > validity to their claim. > > And the last P in my comment (above) was: > > Octal? Hex? Just give me a symbolic debugger and let *it* > keep track of these minutae... Yes - we know your view - what does this have to do with the validity of the octal guys claims? > I don't imagine those hobbyists *prefer* using hex/decimal > keypads and 7 segment displays to write their code? Well... I think they *DID* prefer using keypads and displays - If they hadn't, they would not have used them. In my case: I could have dropped out of school and used my tuition money to buy a development system, but I preferred to do something within my means. I could have tossed the 8080 and taken up fly-fishing as a hoppy, but I preferred make do with what was available to me. For me, the keypad/display was "the way to go" at the time. I went on to a career in development systems - and I can trace the roots all the way back to the low-level basics I learned on hand-built 8080 boards, and the tools I created over the years to improve on that environment. > >> When I was doing Z80-based designs (in the "split octal" world), > >> a helluva lot of energy was expended to support the "octal" > >> encoding -- rewriting the Zilog assembler to generate listings > >> in octal (INCLUDING displaying addresses in split octal!), > >> building run-time "monitors" to examine and patch code images > >> during execution, writing the associated software to do so, etc. > > > > This would be because you didn't work in Octal (split or otherwise). > > The same could be said for any encoding scheme - If some of your > > users had demanded to use base 13 this too would have presented a > > challange to you - but at least the "ultimate answer" would work out > > correctly: (6x9=42 in base 13 :-) > > You're missing the point: it was a waste of time to invest > all that energy in half-*ssed tools instead of moving to > more "current" technology. If your goal is to bring a product > to market (NOT to deal with hobbyists), you devote your > resources to things that can measurably improve your > productivity. Throwing resources (software and hardware > development time and money) on tools that don't make a > dramatic increase in your productivity is just foolish. My points: 1) for many, Octal was natural - just because you consider it half-donkeyed doesn't "make it so". 2) Had you been from the "octal camp", you would now be stating how it wasn't suitable to put time and energy into dealing with the half-assed hex crap. 3) Many of us started during this time period and made do with what we had (and learned a lot more because of it) - A lot of us went on to productive lifetime careers in the business - so there must have been some benefit to our approach. 4) I would argue that in the mid-70's, our approach was in line with "current" microprocessor technology, and high-end development systems were "cutting edge" technology - I know a lotta little (at the time) companies who worked near the bottom. 5) Learning instruction set encodings, and finding ways to simplify that and speed up our mental "access time" to it DID dramatically improve our productivity. > Like writing code in assembler when you could just as readily > use a HLL. I'm not even going to go there (I still write a substantial amount of assembly language). > But, you're still dealing with the hobbyist world. Every product > *we* shipped was a "single board 808x/4004 machine"... yet, they > didn't "use octal" (and we shipped thousands and thousands > of machines). Who said that a product had to use Octal (or Hex for that matter)? I thought we were talking about development methodology. Should pocket calculators be developed using decimal encodings for the micro - because the machine needs to work in decimal? > If you're a hobbyist, your time is (often) worth nothing. > I've watched people disassemble video arcade pieces "by hand" > and reverse engineer all of the copy protection hacks in the > code. > > Um, *why*? Perhaps for the enjoyment, perhaps to learn > Because they are curious and have decided that they can > AFFORD the time to engage in this activity. But a *business* > would never waste their time on this -- unless there was some > key IP that they were after, etc. (there are firms that expend > a great deal of resources on these sorts of activities!) Often businesses in this industry grew from roots as a hobby, especailly during the 70-80s. > > Why even bother with that ... why not just use mouse clicks > > and "drag and drop". > > Mid 70's. No GUIs. No mice. And for many of us, no professional development systems. > > I never saw it as a huge waste of "resources" - In the early > > You didn't rewrite ("re-bug") WORKING development tools > in a production environment to add these "features". > If you've got an assembler, linkage editor, etc. that all > WORK but produce HEX listings, why rewrite them to spit out > listings in split octal? Including addresses (of opcodes, > arguments, link maps, etc.) Are you going to gain that much > in terms of productivity to offset the time spent doing this? > And the bugs that get introduced in the process? Who said anything about rewriting development tools? (Btw - the guy you are talkin to made a career out of writing development tools). What I'm talking about is when I got a listing in Octal, I didn't have a great deal of trouble entering it on my hex keypad - I could go very quickly down a column of numbers and turn them into HEX bytes (new column) - and btw, this was one case where "split octal" was an advantage - I found it much harder to turn "full octal" addresses into hex. Did I produce Octal listing for the Hex guys - nope, they were equally good at translating the other way. Was it optimal? Nope - but it was the way it was. It would be great if the world could agree on one spoken/written language too. > Wouldn't it be better to just live with the hex listings > and purchase a hex keypad for your "run-time monitor"? > After all, you're only going to build a handful of those... > what's it going to cost you vs. a decimal/octal keypad -- an > extra $10?? Why would the Octal camp guys purchase Hex keypads? Why would the Hex camp guys purchase Octal keypads? Was there ever a "decimal camp"? - who used decimal keypads (actually, I did, with little stickers over +, -, X, /, C, = to convert them to A-F. And yes, wouldn't it be better to just live with whatever listing you get. (or even better - write the tool to produce what you need in the first place). > Spend the resources that you "wasted" hacking the toolchain > to purchase another *real* development system. Or, a > symbolic debugger. Etc. Don't sell your adherence to > The Old Ways as a virtue -- concentrate on getting ahead > of the curve and your competition! We didn't "hack" toolchains - we wrote them. And the Octal guys wrote tools that worked in Octal, Hex guys wrote tools that worked in Hex - everyone was happy. > > days, some guys liked Octal, some guys liked hex - I worked > > mainly in hex, but I didn't have a great deal of trouble going > > back and forth - you were happy just to find someone who > > knew the language - the particular dialect that he chose didn't > > seem all that important at the time. > > > > Clearly the debate can rage on forever - If you like hex, and > > consider it the "only game in town", then thats OK by me. I > > happen to see advantages to both viewpoints. Nuff said - lets just agree to disagree. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Apr 27 08:02:36 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 15:02:36 +0200 Subject: DUNGEON (Zork) & MIT's 545 Tech. Sq. In-Reply-To: <200604271248.k3RCmAMx064149@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604271248.k3RCmAMx064149@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4450C0EC.8070509@update.uu.se> "Eric F." wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > If ZORK were ever to run on any other machine > > that machine first and foremost would have to > > have MDL. You know if SDS had that? > > A quick scan of my MDL manuals: > > "The MDL Programming Language" by Galley & Pfister > > and > > "The MDL Programming Environment" by Lebling > > (both published by Laboratory for Computer Science @ MIT) > > show that MDL only ran on ITS, Tenex, and TOPS-20. All which are operating systems for the PDP-10, which I hope you know. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ken at seefried.com Thu Apr 27 08:34:25 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 09:34:25 -0400 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <200604271248.k3RCmAMq064149@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604271248.k3RCmAMq064149@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20060427133425.24473.qmail@seefried.com> From: > John Allain wrote: > > Anybody dismiss this as not a Multia yet? > >I didn't think that Multias were ATX format. Correct. > That sounds a lot more like the later 164LX/SX > boards (or the equivalent 3rd party boards). Another possibility are the older PC64 (based on the 21064 or 21064A) boards, which are actually more baby AT format but have PS/2 connectors for mouse/kbd. I've got a PC64-275, which was a scorcher circa 1995. From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Apr 27 09:41:25 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 09:41:25 -0500 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: References: <20060426221033.PLOY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20060427134236.CZJV8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> There are three bar-coded stickers visible on the top of the board (I haven't taken the board out to look on the bottom yet). Two are on yellow backgrounds, and are located up near the power-supply: 54-25002-01 B03 and KA724WZJHL The remaining one is at the bottom, near the back of the ISA slots: 70-32811-C0 When powered up, the system reads: (First a graphicsl screen appears showing a drawing of a PC with the logo "Alpha Powered") Then, a "windowey" set of screens which read: AlphaBIOS 5.60-3 AlphaPC 164LX Processor: Digital ALPHA 21164, 466Mhz This is visible while it tests the memory (256M), and then it goes to a menu from which I can go into various configuration screens. Can anyone tell me more information about this system. The is evidence of SCSI, as there is a SCSI CD-drive, and some of the configuration options reference SCSI, however there is no SCSI controller - what type of controller do I need for it? Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Apr 27 09:05:50 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 10:05:50 -0400 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <20060426212259.U38387@shell.lmi.net> References: <445045A8.4000603@mindspring.com> <20060426212259.U38387@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200604271005.51196.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 27 April 2006 00:25, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Where's the machines to go with those!? > > When you see a moosehead on the wall, > it's unlikely that the rest of the moose is in the next room. Nor does it mean that the moosehead should have been chopped off the moose in the first place. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Apr 27 09:11:24 2006 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 10:11:24 -0400 Subject: OSI Addition to collection In-Reply-To: <20060427045853.85467.qmail@web81009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: David Williams wrote: > I'll let you know as soon as I get to the box with the monitor in > it. So far I've concentrated on the box of doc and stuff. I'll > let you know what I find out about the software. Until then, if > interested, you can see the current doc list at > > http://www.trailingedge.com/osi/OSIDoc.txt Wow! That's a nice set of docs! I'd love to see copies/scans of the CII and C2-4P docs. > How many issues is a complete set of PEEK(65)? I have a bunch > here now and wonder how complete it is. I believe it ran from 1980 to 1986. For some periods it came out every other month and there was at least one month where two issues were released. I'll check my set tonight. Bill From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Apr 27 10:08:31 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:08:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <20060427134236.CZJV8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060426221033.PLOY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060427134236.CZJV8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <29328.135.196.233.27.1146150511.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> >From what I remember the LX164 was supposed to be a screamin' NT workstation for CAD style apps. >From the OpenVMS FAQ: " OpenVMS Alpha is not supported on the AlphaPC 164LX and 164SX series, though there are folks that have gotten certain of the LX series to load SRM and bootstrap OpenVMS. (The Aspen Durango II variant, specifically.) One problem has been generally reported: ATA (IDE) bootstraps will fail; SCSI storage and a SCSI CD-ROM device is required." Firmware: http://ftp.digital.com/pub/DEC/Alpha/firmware/readmes/alphapc164lx.html For SCSI cards I'd go for either the KZPAA-AA (8-bit narrow) or KZPBA-CA (Ultra2 LVD) I'm sure there'll be more info along soon :o) A On Thu, April 27, 2006 3:41 pm, Dave Dunfield said: > There are three bar-coded stickers visible on the top of the board (I > haven't > taken the board out to look on the bottom yet). > > Two are on yellow backgrounds, and are located up near the power-supply: > > 54-25002-01 B03 > > and > > KA724WZJHL > > > The remaining one is at the bottom, near the back of the ISA slots: > > 70-32811-C0 > > > When powered up, the system reads: > > (First a graphicsl screen appears showing a drawing of a PC with > the logo "Alpha Powered") > > Then, a "windowey" set of screens which read: > > AlphaBIOS 5.60-3 > > AlphaPC 164LX > Processor: Digital ALPHA 21164, 466Mhz > > This is visible while it tests the memory (256M), and then it > goes to a menu from which I can go into various configuration > screens. > > Can anyone tell me more information about this system. > The is evidence of SCSI, as there is a SCSI CD-drive, and > some of the configuration options reference SCSI, however > there is no SCSI controller - what type of controller do I need > for it? > > Regards, > Dave > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From fryers at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 10:17:19 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:17:19 +0100 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <20060427134236.CZJV8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060426221033.PLOY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060427134236.CZJV8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: All, On 4/27/06, Dave Dunfield wrote: [...] > When powered up, the system reads: > > (First a graphicsl screen appears showing a drawing of a PC with > the logo "Alpha Powered") > > Then, a "windowey" set of screens which read: > > AlphaBIOS 5.60-3 > > AlphaPC 164LX > Processor: Digital ALPHA 21164, 466Mhz > > This is visible while it tests the memory (256M), and then it > goes to a menu from which I can go into various configuration > screens. It appears to be a 164LX, very similar to the 164SX that I have. AFAIK these systems were designed to run Windows NT. > Can anyone tell me more information about this system. > The is evidence of SCSI, as there is a SCSI CD-drive, and > some of the configuration options reference SCSI, however > there is no SCSI controller - what type of controller do I need > for it? Depending on the firmware, the EIDE ports are mapped as SCSI devices for some tasks, but not for others. I think I can do a sho dev in SRM and it will list all the SCSI and EIDE devices, with similar numbering. I seem to recall some problems booting with from an ATAPI CDROM but it was over 4 years ago and I don't recall the exact details. I have a no name PCI SCSI card with a NCR chipset. I'll be able to give you more details when I get home and am in front of my machine. AlphaBIOS can only be used with Linux and Windows NT. I seem to recall that booting any of the BSDs, Tru64/DU/OSF1 or VMS in only possible with the SRM firmware. I *should* have the SRM firmware for this machine tucked away somewhere if you want to use anything other than NT or Linux with this machine. With the right ethernet card, the machine will boot via MOP or a combination of IP protocols. Aside, a good quality scan (600dpi) of the manual for the 164SX looks like being in the 55MB range, encoded as a PDF. I am using the combined scanner/photocopier/printer at work that conviently knows how to create PDFs on the fly. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Apr 27 11:23:44 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 09:23:44 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <20060427124040.CAFW8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060420113022.SCGY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060427124040.CAFW8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4450F010.2080001@DakotaCom.Net> >> When I was developing Z80-based products, an ongoing *battle* >> was the use of hex vs. "split octal" (e.g., 0xFFFF -> 0377 0377). >> The octal camp claimed the Z80 was an "octal machine" (oh, really?) >> and, for "proof", showed how so many of the opcodes could be >> committed to memory just my noting the source & destination >> register "codes" and packing them into an octal representation: >> xx xxx xxx (of course, I wonder how well their argument would >> stand up if Zilog had opted to encode the register fields >> as: xs dds dsx?? :> ) > > It would appear that the *nuts* was implied: by (oh, really?)m Quotes > around "proof", suggestion that the opcode encoding is randomly > organized etc. > >> Octal? Hex? Just give me a symbolic debugger and let *it* >> keep track of these minutae... > > Like your mouse below, symbolic debuggers didn't exist for many > of us in the mid 70's. But this is the point you are missing. I guess I need to be more explicit. :-( To borrow your approach: CONTEXT: Engineers with expensive development systems sitting next to them. Development systems have proven tools installed on them. Said tools generate listings with addresses, opcodes, link maps, etc. in HEX -- alongside the assembly language instructions (including symbolic references) and expanded macros, etc. What's the merit of arguing OCTAL vs. HEX? You have a tool that works and frees you from having to deal with bit twiddling. And, it will make far fewer mistakes than *you* will as well as giving you a means to deal with algorithms at a higher level of abstraction. Why rewrite those tools to generate listings in OCTAL? Octal? Hex? Just give me a symbolic debugger and let *it* keep track of these minutae... It's like arguing about from which side to mount your horse... while standing on a street corner in Manhattan waiting for a taxi! For a hobbyist or a startup strapped for resources, you approach things differently. When I came home from work, I *didn't* have a wave that I could fab boards on so I had to wirewrap. I didn't have a 'scope to troubleshoot my (home) designs on so I used a voltmeter. But, when I went back to work the next day, I didn't drag my VOM with me -- I used their *scope* to do my work. Even though the VOM worked well-enough for me at home and I was troubleshooting the same sorts of hardware... As I said: Sure. But, the rules applying to hobbyists are obviously different than those applying to corporations trying to bring products to market. You wouldn't suggest we NOT purchase the MDS and, instead, get a bunch of SDK's wired to our target hardware? [snip] >> I don't imagine those hobbyists *prefer* using hex/decimal >> keypads and 7 segment displays to write their code? > > Well... I think they *DID* prefer using keypads and displays - If > they hadn't, they would not have used them. In my case: I could > have dropped out of school and used my tuition money to buy a > development system, but I preferred to do something within my > means. I could have tossed the 8080 and taken up fly-fishing as > a hoppy, but I preferred make do with what was available to me. > For me, the keypad/display was "the way to go" at the time. But you didn't *prefer* it. If you had the resources to buy better tools, would you still be using that approach? (for anything but nostalgic reasons? Or, more to the point, if the tools already existed at your place of employment, would you shun them in favor of this approach?? >> You're missing the point: it was a waste of time to invest >> all that energy in half-*ssed tools instead of moving to >> more "current" technology. If your goal is to bring a product >> to market (NOT to deal with hobbyists), you devote your >> resources to things that can measurably improve your >> productivity. Throwing resources (software and hardware >> development time and money) on tools that don't make a >> dramatic increase in your productivity is just foolish. > > My points: > 1) for many, Octal was natural - just because you consider it > half-donkeyed doesn't "make it so". > 2) Had you been from the "octal camp", you would now be > stating how it wasn't suitable to put time and energy into > dealing with the half-assed hex crap. My point is that "camps" are irrelevant if the tools you are using transcend that level of detail. You (I, in this case) have a tool that works. It produces listings in *binary*. Who cares?? Move your eyes 2 inches to the right of those 1's and 0's and read the COMMENTED CODE that's printed adjacent to it! > 3) Many of us started during this time period and made do with > what we had (and learned a lot more because of it) - A lot of > us went on to productive lifetime careers in the business - so > there must have been some benefit to our approach. Sure. All of the boards, code, cabinetry, etc. that I made for home projects relied on techniques and materials that I could purchase and manipulate on a hobbyist's budget. But, I didn't refrain from using injected molded plastic parts in designs at work! And, I didn't waste their time engaging in discussions about whether it was best to fabricate cases in wood or lexan (two materials I could easily work with at home). The "wood camp" and "lexan camp" weren't appropriate to the WORK camp! > 4) I would argue that in the mid-70's, our approach was in line > with "current" microprocessor technology, and high-end > development systems were "cutting edge" technology - I know > a lotta little (at the time) companies who worked near the > bottom. > 5) Learning instruction set encodings, and finding ways to > simplify that and speed up our mental "access time" to it > DID dramatically improve our productivity. > >> Like writing code in assembler when you could just as readily >> use a HLL. > > I'm not even going to go there (I still write a substantial amount of > assembly language). Sure. But (aside from nostalgia), I assume only when you *have* to. If I've got to maintain something written for a 2A03, I'll grumble and cuss and push my rates up since I know I'll be *stuck* working in ASM. If I have to write a BSP for a new ARM, I'll grumble a little bit but I know there WILL be an end in sight and I (typically) won't be stuck writing in ASM "forever". But, if I have to write a protocol stack, I'm not even going to *think* about doing anything more than, perhaps, checksum calculations in ASM. >>> I never saw it as a huge waste of "resources" - In the early >> You didn't rewrite ("re-bug") WORKING development tools >> in a production environment to add these "features". >> If you've got an assembler, linkage editor, etc. that all >> WORK but produce HEX listings, why rewrite them to spit out >> listings in split octal? Including addresses (of opcodes, >> arguments, link maps, etc.) Are you going to gain that much >> in terms of productivity to offset the time spent doing this? >> And the bugs that get introduced in the process? > > Who said anything about rewriting development tools? The folks I was working with did. Hence the point of my initial comment on this subject: the "ongoing battle of octal vs. hex". The "battle" should have been "what *better* tools do we need to do our jobs" (writing debugged code). >>> Clearly the debate can rage on forever - If you like hex, and >>> consider it the "only game in town", then thats OK by me. I >>> happen to see advantages to both viewpoints. > > Nuff said - lets just agree to disagree. I don't think we "disagree". I think the problem is that we are discussing different "contexts". :-/ --don From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Apr 27 11:41:36 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 09:41:36 -0700 Subject: ISO: SGI VW320 parts In-Reply-To: References: <445070D5.2050508@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <4450F440.2040701@DakotaCom.Net> James Rice wrote: > The memory shows up on ebay all the time. Yes, you can use std slot 1 Search for "VW320"? Or, is there some special name for the little memory modules? > processors with 100mhz bus speed. A few people have been using > Sloket boards with good results to adapt socket 370 flip chips to the > 320. Depending on the motherboard revision, you can run up to 1ghz > cpu's. You need to check on the two VRM modules to see if they are > present. They sell on ebay occasionally too. > > Setup and installation of Win NT or Win2k is a bit tricky. You have > to set up a small FAT partition as the first partition to load the ARC > loader into. The Sgi320, does not have a BIOS but has a real Unix box > style PROM monitor. To spoof Windows into loading and booting, you > load the ARC loader and then Windows boots within a Window of the ARC > loader. All necessary files are available on Sgi's website. If you > are going to load Win2k, you also need to select a special Sgi320 HAL > at first boot of the installation disk. When the Windows installer > prompts you to "Press F6 to select a disk controller" press F5 > instead. Then select the SgiMP HAL. Once you have it running, it I managed to get most of W2K installed on it last night. Along with the SGI video and audio tools to take advantage of those capabilities (motherboard and some weird little digital audio card??). I tried stuffing a 29160 in it (it appears the PCI is 3.3V only?) but the box wouldn't get past the 29160's BIOS. So, I pulled it and will see if I can find another HA -- or, tinker with the 29160 later on. Will I have any luck trying to find a disk cage for it? Or, should I just have something fabricated? (I'd prefer not to start drilling holes in things just to hack a disk into it) > makes a remarkable fast and stable Windows box. It's probably the > only Windows box that I have ever had a BSOD on. Is that a typo? "I have EVER" or "I have NEVER"? --don From james.rice at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 12:08:16 2006 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 12:08:16 -0500 Subject: ISO: SGI VW320 parts In-Reply-To: <4450F440.2040701@DakotaCom.Net> References: <445070D5.2050508@DakotaCom.Net> <4450F440.2040701@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: That was definitely a typo, it was supposed to be "never had". Funny On 4/27/06, Don Y wrote: > James Rice wrote: > > The memory shows up on ebay all the time. Yes, you can use std slot 1 > > Search for "VW320"? Or, is there some special name for the little > memory modules? Nope, searching for 320/540 will work. They both use the same modules. > > > processors with 100mhz bus speed. A few people have been using > > Sloket boards with good results to adapt socket 370 flip chips to the > > 320. Depending on the motherboard revision, you can run up to 1ghz > > cpu's. You need to check on the two VRM modules to see if they are > > present. They sell on ebay occasionally too. > > > > Setup and installation of Win NT or Win2k is a bit tricky. You have > > to set up a small FAT partition as the first partition to load the ARC > > loader into. The Sgi320, does not have a BIOS but has a real Unix box > > style PROM monitor. To spoof Windows into loading and booting, you > > load the ARC loader and then Windows boots within a Window of the ARC > > loader. All necessary files are available on Sgi's website. If you > > are going to load Win2k, you also need to select a special Sgi320 HAL > > at first boot of the installation disk. When the Windows installer > > prompts you to "Press F6 to select a disk controller" press F5 > > instead. Then select the SgiMP HAL. Once you have it running, it > > I managed to get most of W2K installed on it last night. > Along with the SGI video and audio tools to take advantage > of those capabilities (motherboard and some weird little > digital audio card??). > Good, you've made progress. > I tried stuffing a 29160 in it (it appears the PCI is 3.3V only?) > but the box wouldn't get past the 29160's BIOS. So, I pulled it > and will see if I can find another HA -- or, tinker with the > 29160 later on. I think that the Adaptec card for the 320/540 had special firmware. > > Will I have any luck trying to find a disk cage for it? Or, > should I just have something fabricated? (I'd prefer not to > start drilling holes in things just to hack a disk into it) You might want to go on nekochan.net and ask around there. It's a Sgi hobbyesy site. you may be already on there, but if not, ask there. > > > makes a remarkable fast and stable Windows box. It's probably the > > only Windows box that I have ever had a BSOD on. > > Is that a typo? "I have EVER" or "I have NEVER"? > > --don > -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers www.blackcube.org/personal/index.html - Personal web page From allain at panix.com Thu Apr 27 12:30:35 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 13:30:35 -0400 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck References: <445041DE.2020305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <007001c66a20$4bd0a320$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> >> Speechless... >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8799118065 > That is wrong on *soooo* many levels. $1000 MaaayBe, not 10X. Anybody checking the '''Vintage Computing Products''' listings all the way through like I used to? Back when I used to read all the listings, 3-6 years ago, these would come up about once a year and sell for about $500. My guess is that a buyer+seller collusion was possible, or Hollywood ha$ a period computer movie in the work$. John A. From kth at srv.net Thu Apr 27 12:46:23 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 11:46:23 -0600 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <000c01c669ae$ff97eb10$8c5c1941@game> References: <000c01c669ae$ff97eb10$8c5c1941@game> Message-ID: <4451036F.4000503@srv.net> Teo Zenios wrote: >One ebay auction does not mean much. How much did you think those panels >were worth, *and where do you live*. ;) > > ..he asked, pulling out a crowbar while adjusting his ski mask... From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Apr 27 12:36:39 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 10:36:39 -0700 Subject: Absurd algorithms (was:RE: Programmer's conundrums) Message-ID: On 4/14/06, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 14 Apr 2006, woodelf wrote: > > a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > > > I'm sure Knuth mentions "random-sort" as being worse (randomly > > > shuffle elements, check if order correct, if not then repeat). > > Sounds like it would have the smallest memory ( data and code) > > footprint around. > > a bit larger than a bubble sort. > But, at least it would tend to be slower. It's called bogosort. It's O(N!) if your random number generator is perfect. Pseudocode from the wikipedia entry: --------------------------------------------------------------------- function bogosort(array) while not is_sorted(array) array := random_permutation(array) --------------------------------------------------------------------- The only worse (speed wise) sorting algorithm that I know of is what I call the infinitysort(). It just waits for random physical processes to sort the array. It is O((BN)!) where B is the size of the objects in bits. pseudocode representation is... --------------------------------------------------------------------- function infinitysort(array) while (not is_sorted(array)) or contains_different_elements(array) wait --------------------------------------------------------------------- You could greatly improve this algorithm by changing wait to "generate a random bit pattern the same size as array" The fastest sort I know of is the O(1) sort called nosort(). It's pseudocode is --------------------------------------------------------------------- function nosort(array) --------------------------------------------------------------------- It's only problem is that its probability of getting the right answer is equal to the probability that the array is already sorted. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Apr 27 12:44:08 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 19:44:08 +0200 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <20060427134236.CZJV8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <20060426221033.PLOY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060427134236.CZJV8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20060427194408.5f3572bc@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 09:41:25 -0500 "Dave Dunfield" wrote: > AlphaBIOS 5.60-3 > > AlphaPC 164LX > Processor: Digital ALPHA 21164, 466Mhz Well, this is a 164LX board obviously. Feed google with "164LX Alpha" and you will see... > Can anyone tell me more information about this system. Google... Here is an overview: http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/alpha/models.html#eb164-family > The is evidence of SCSI, as there is a SCSI CD-drive, and > some of the configuration options reference SCSI, however > there is no SCSI controller - what type of controller do I need > for it? Any NCR / Symbios SCSI adapter of 53C8xx vintage should do. For network try to get a DEC DE500. An other DEC Tulip based card (DECchip 21[01]4[012]) may do also. Note that you will need SRM firmware for anything other then WindowsNT or Linux. Some machines have an option in the AlphaBIOS to switch to "UNIX mode". Other machines need a flash update or dirty tricks. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Apr 27 12:44:35 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 13:44:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060427174435.E6F045813E@mail.wordstock.com> > > Speechless... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8799118065 > > !!!!!! > > Better go revising my insurance - I have more that aren't in this picture: > > http://www.corestore.org/ibmpanels.jpg > But do yours have the "hard to find" EPO knob? Maybe the knob put the value up. Cheers, Bryan From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 12:52:49 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 13:52:49 -0400 Subject: Absurd algorithms (was:RE: Programmer's conundrums) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <445104F1.9080209@gmail.com> Eric J Korpela wrote: >>>> I'm sure Knuth mentions "random-sort" as being worse (randomly >>>> shuffle elements, check if order correct, if not then repeat). >>> Sounds like it would have the smallest memory ( data and code) >>> footprint around. >> a bit larger than a bubble sort. >> But, at least it would tend to be slower. > > It's called bogosort. It's O(N!) if your random number generator is perfect. > > > Pseudocode from the wikipedia entry: > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > function bogosort(array) > while not is_sorted(array) > array := random_permutation(array) > --------------------------------------------------------------------- If we're talking about absurd algorithms, and not just absurdly *bad* algorithms, then we should talk about the quantum bogosort algorithm as well. I'll defer to the Jargon File regarding this one: A spectacular variant of bogo-sort has been proposed which has the interesting property that, if the Many Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is true, it can sort an arbitrarily large array in linear time. (In the Many-Worlds model, the result of any quantum action is to split the universe-before into a sheaf of universes-after, one for each possible way the state vector can collapse; in any one of the universes-after the result appears random.) The steps are: 1. Permute the array randomly using a quantum process, 2. If the array is not sorted, destroy the universe (checking that the list is sorted requires O(n) time). Implementation of step 2 is left as an exercise for the reader. http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/B/bogo-sort.html Woohoo! Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 12:57:11 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 13:57:11 -0400 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <20060427194408.5f3572bc@SirToby.dinner41.de> References: <20060426221033.PLOY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060427134236.CZJV8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060427194408.5f3572bc@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: <445105F7.3050004@gmail.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: > Any NCR / Symbios SCSI adapter of 53C8xx vintage should do. For network > try to get a DEC DE500. An other DEC Tulip based card (DECchip > 21[01]4[012]) may do also. I've had success in the past with QLogic QLA-10x0 cards on Alpha systems too. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 12:59:34 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 13:59:34 -0400 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <007001c66a20$4bd0a320$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <445041DE.2020305@gmail.com> <007001c66a20$4bd0a320$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <44510686.8010903@gmail.com> John Allain wrote: >>> Speechless... >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8799118065 > >> That is wrong on *soooo* many levels. > > $1000 MaaayBe, not 10X. > Anybody checking the '''Vintage Computing Products''' listings all the way > through like I used to? Back when I used to read all the listings, 3-6 > years > ago, these would come up about once a year and sell for about $500. > My guess is that a buyer+seller collusion was possible, > or Hollywood ha$ a period computer movie in the work$. I didn't just mean the money. A machine had to be junked to get that panel. Those machines are beautiful on many different levels. Peace... Sridhar From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Apr 27 13:06:36 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 20:06:36 +0200 Subject: ISO: SGI VW320 parts In-Reply-To: References: <445070D5.2050508@DakotaCom.Net> <4450F440.2040701@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <20060427200636.1ac53d9a@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 12:08:16 -0500 "James Rice" wrote: > I think that the Adaptec card for the 320/540 had special firmware. IIRC the VW wants a QLogic ISP10[248]0 because they are supported by the main board firmware or somthing like this. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Apr 27 13:11:48 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 11:11:48 -0700 Subject: ISO: SGI VW320 parts In-Reply-To: <4450F440.2040701@DakotaCom.Net> References: <445070D5.2050508@DakotaCom.Net> <4450F440.2040701@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200604271111.48627.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 27 April 2006 09:41, Don Y wrote: --snip-- > I tried stuffing a 29160 in it (it appears the PCI is 3.3V only?) > but the box wouldn't get past the 29160's BIOS. So, I pulled it > and will see if I can find another HA -- or, tinker with the > 29160 later on. Yes, both boxes are 3.3V ONLY. I remember talking to SGI Engineers about that when they were developing the boxes - and they had the idea that making it 3.3V only would 1) Limit the cards that folks could add w/o going through SGI and 2) They wanted to follow the PCI "latest standard" and not support "legacy" cards. I told them it was a mistake - that the more "open" they made them, the more they'd sell - and so did other consultants - but they ignored us all. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 27 13:16:04 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 11:16:04 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <4450F010.2080001@DakotaCom.Net> References: <20060420113022.SCGY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060427124040.CAFW8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <4450F010.2080001@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <200604271116040077.A4D38B24@10.0.0.252> My take on the hex-vs-octal 8080/Z80 debate: My gosh, it doesn't take a mental giant to subdivide an 8 bit quantity into either octal or hexadecimal! Hex is attractive for 8 bits in that there's no "hole" to deal with in 16/24/32... bit quantities (although that can be accomodated with application of a bit of grey matter). Another reason I like hex for 8 bits is because I can output a line of 16 bytes in a dump format, complete with address and alpha translation on a single 80-character line. Heaven knows why ZSID went to a two-line format to do that. But if all you've got is octal, no problem, I can deal with that, too. Or decimal, for that matter. If you think that hex-vs-octal is hard mental work, try transposing musical notation on the fly... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 27 13:22:17 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 11:22:17 -0700 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <44510686.8010903@gmail.com> References: <445041DE.2020305@gmail.com> <007001c66a20$4bd0a320$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44510686.8010903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200604271122170397.A4D93D68@10.0.0.252> On 4/27/2006 at 1:59 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >I didn't just mean the money. A machine had to be junked to get that >panel. Those machines are beautiful on many different levels. I always thought that the S/360 with more blinkenlights was much more impressive--and SO 60's! Cheers, Chuck From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Apr 27 13:32:22 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 11:32:22 -0700 Subject: ISO: SGI VW320 parts In-Reply-To: <200604271111.48627.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <445070D5.2050508@DakotaCom.Net> <4450F440.2040701@DakotaCom.Net> <200604271111.48627.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <44510E35.1060002@DakotaCom.Net> Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Thursday 27 April 2006 09:41, Don Y wrote: > --snip-- >> I tried stuffing a 29160 in it (it appears the PCI is 3.3V only?) >> but the box wouldn't get past the 29160's BIOS. So, I pulled it >> and will see if I can find another HA -- or, tinker with the >> 29160 later on. > > Yes, both boxes are 3.3V ONLY. I remember talking to SGI Engineers about that > when they were developing the boxes - and they had the idea that making it > 3.3V only would 1) Limit the cards that folks could add w/o going through SGI > and 2) They wanted to follow the PCI "latest standard" and not support > "legacy" cards. I told them it was a mistake - that the more "open" they made > them, the more they'd sell - and so did other consultants - but they ignored > us all. Heh heh heh... "Captains of Industry" -- and where are they *now*? :> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 27 12:58:23 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 18:58:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: anyone have a terminal server? In-Reply-To: <01C66977.4B7F5AA0@MSE_D03> from "M H Stein" at Apr 26, 6 09:18:50 pm Message-ID: > Sorry, Tony, much as I'd like to repay you for all the contributions you've made, > I don't think I can help very much. Pity... Well, it didn't hurt to ask. > > No info on the old modular units at all, and the '86 price list & brochure I'm > looking at doesn't mention any 10 port models either. I don't have any technical >From what I can see, the 10-port unit and the 16-port modular unit are pretty similar electroncially. > info in any case, just the Installation/Reference Manual and the Applications > guide for the NC4, NC7, NC8 and NC16. The NC4 (4 serial) & 7 (4 serial, 3 par.) > have configuration switches on the front, while the 8 & 16 are programmed from a > terminal. Mine are certainly soft-configured. There are, IIRC, no internal DIP switches at all. And IIRC, sending it some control codes (it _MAY_ be ^T^T) gets you some kind of prompt, from which you can configure the port setings, logcially conenct ports together, etc. I've figured out enough to make the PSU brick for it (just a transformer + fuses), and that sort of thing. I was wondering if there's anything that's not obvious... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 27 13:30:46 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 19:30:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <44504FB4.2020100@DakotaCom.Net> from "Don Y" at Apr 26, 6 09:59:32 pm Message-ID: > > Undocumented instrs are not the whole story, particularly not for 8085 > > vs z80 issues, and especially not for RIM and SIM. I have had hard times > > finding any 8085 system at all that required and used them; the typical > > If you are looking for a "desktop/hobbyist" application, that's probably > true. But, SID and SOD were cheap one bit ports that were exploited > in embedded products. Given how few *products* were developed in this Probaly the most common 'consumer' 8085 system was the TRS-80 Model 100 and related machines. That machine uses SID and SOD (for the casssette port) and also the RST5.5 (Barcode input), RST6.5 (UART Data received) and RST7.5 (Real time clock pulse) inputs. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 13:34:38 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 14:34:38 -0400 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <200604271122170397.A4D93D68@10.0.0.252> References: <445041DE.2020305@gmail.com> <007001c66a20$4bd0a320$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44510686.8010903@gmail.com> <200604271122170397.A4D93D68@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44510EBE.7020101@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/27/2006 at 1:59 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> I didn't just mean the money. A machine had to be junked to get that >> panel. Those machines are beautiful on many different levels. > > I always thought that the S/360 with more blinkenlights was much more > impressive--and SO 60's! Oh definitely. But that machine was beautiful in a way different from an S/360. And there's definitely charm to having an entire building's worth of S/370/168 on raised floor with all of its racks lined up perfectly and all of its tapes singing. Peace... Sridhar From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 27 13:41:18 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 13:41:18 -0500 Subject: 11/45 interrupts References: <00c701c668e5$dd698f40$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <00f701c66a2a$2c86cbc0$6500a8c0@BILLING> I'm getting a little time to go back and work on my 11/45 project... Tony wrote... >> So, I would propose the following tests : >> >> 1) Make sure you can read/write all bits from external memort. Just write >> 1, 2, 4 ,8, 16,.... to successive locations using the panel and examing >> them. Jsut to eliminate a silly fault like a dead data buffer. If there was a dead data buffer, how on earth could the machine sucessfully boot and run xxdp+? I will try this test anyways. >> 2) Run the basic instruction diagnostic if you've not done so already. >> This should veryify that the data paths are OK. I am having some trouble finding the right diagnostic for basic instruction test on the /45. I will find it tonight and post the results. >> 3) If possible, try some other interrupting device. An obvious one is the >> console receiver. Wirre a program to : Load all the vectors with .+2, >> HALT >> as you did for the line time clock test that's failing.; Read the >> Console >> Rx data register to clear the data received bit (if necessary); then >> enable the receiver interrupt; and go into an endless loop. Then you >> press >> a key on the conosle. The processor should halt, but _where_ does it >> halt. If 4, then it appears the processor is ignoring all vectors. I think I see what you're saying. After I try the first two tests, I will need some clarification on this and post again :) >> Hopefully this will point us in the right direction to look for the >> fault. I hope so, I need to get this machine done to consolidate some room the basement that the wife is eyeing for her use ;) Jay From james.rice at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 13:43:30 2006 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 13:43:30 -0500 Subject: ISO: SGI VW320 parts In-Reply-To: <20060427200636.1ac53d9a@SirToby.dinner41.de> References: <445070D5.2050508@DakotaCom.Net> <4450F440.2040701@DakotaCom.Net> <20060427200636.1ac53d9a@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: I remember that now. My 320 is IDE only. i don't have a SCSI card for it. James On 4/27/06, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 12:08:16 -0500 > "James Rice" wrote: > > > I think that the Adaptec card for the 320/540 had special firmware. > IIRC the VW wants a QLogic ISP10[248]0 because they are supported by the > main board firmware or somthing like this. > -- > > > tsch??, > Jochen > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ > > > -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers www.blackcube.org/personal/index.html - Personal web page From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Apr 27 13:53:41 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 20:53:41 +0200 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <445105F7.3050004@gmail.com> References: <20060426221033.PLOY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060427134236.CZJV8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060427194408.5f3572bc@SirToby.dinner41.de> <445105F7.3050004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060427205341.14a99966@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 13:57:11 -0400 Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I've had success in the past with QLogic QLA-10x0 cards on Alpha > systems too. Ahh, yes. Forgot to mention QLogic. Actually I pulled an ISP1040 out of an Alpha PWS500au to put it into my Octane, as IRIX supports the ISP1040 out of the box. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Apr 27 14:06:34 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 15:06:34 -0400 Subject: Dasher/One Message-ID: Hi All, Does anyone have info or disks for a Data General Dasher/One PC? I have one that I'm attempting to restore. Thanks Rob From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Apr 27 15:23:26 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 15:23:26 -0500 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <200604271116040077.A4D38B24@10.0.0.252> References: <4450F010.2080001@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <20060427192444.LDMG20234.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > My take on the hex-vs-octal 8080/Z80 debate: > > My gosh, it doesn't take a mental giant to subdivide an 8 bit quantity into > either octal or hexadecimal! Hex is attractive for 8 bits in that there's > no "hole" to deal with in 16/24/32... bit quantities (although that can be > accomodated with application of a bit of grey matter). > > Another reason I like hex for 8 bits is because I can output a line of 16 > bytes in a dump format, complete with address and alpha translation on a > single 80-character line. Heaven knows why ZSID went to a two-line format > to do that. But if all you've got is octal, no problem, I can deal with > that, too. Or decimal, for that matter. Hi Chuck, Well stated, and THANK YOU - thats exactly what I was trying to say. Given the choice, and where it makes sense - I work in hex. but I don't have a huge problem with other notations. I never suggested that anyone rewrite their existing tools to support one or the other. Only that there is some validity to others preference for different notations than I use. On anything I have developed from scratch, I worked in hex - but all of my tools accept binary, octal and decimal representations as well. When I worked on the Altair, I worked in hex - even though the Altair front panel was grouped in octal - it is simple enough to just visualize the switches in groups of four. When I worked on the H8 however, I usually worked in octal - the H8 has octal displays and octal keypad - the listings are all in octal, and the tools all work in octal - It's easier to "go with the flow" than to be constantly convertng - but I did that too when I moved code to and from ... No matter how "wizbang" your tools are, I think you still benefit from a good low-level understanding of the architecture - no matter what particular dialect you speak - the "important stuff" is still the same and is what matters. Cheers, Dave PS: And for-the-record yes, sometimes I prefer to use simple tools and the debugger between my ears - Many a time I've found the problem while the other guy was busy hooking up logic analyzer cables... -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 27 15:47:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 13:47:52 -0700 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <44510EBE.7020101@gmail.com> References: <445041DE.2020305@gmail.com> <007001c66a20$4bd0a320$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44510686.8010903@gmail.com> <200604271122170397.A4D93D68@10.0.0.252> <44510EBE.7020101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200604271347520485.A55E8681@10.0.0.252> On 4/27/2006 at 2:34 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >But that machine was beautiful in a way different from an S/360. And >there's definitely charm to having an entire building's worth of >S/370/168 on raised floor with all of its racks lined up perfectly and >all of its tapes singing. ...and earplugs in your ears! :) --Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 27 16:07:21 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 17:07:21 -0400 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <29328.135.196.233.27.1146150511.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <20060426221033.PLOY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060427134236.CZJV8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <29328.135.196.233.27.1146150511.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <44513289.3050500@mdrconsult.com> Witchy wrote: >>From what I remember the LX164 was supposed to be a screamin' NT > workstation for CAD style apps. > >>From the OpenVMS FAQ: > > " OpenVMS Alpha is not supported on the AlphaPC 164LX and > 164SX series, though there are folks that have gotten > certain of the LX series to load SRM and bootstrap > OpenVMS. (The Aspen Durango II variant, specifically.) > > One problem has been generally reported: ATA (IDE) > bootstraps will fail; SCSI storage and a SCSI CD-ROM > device is required." > Well, be that as it may, I've installed and run VMS v7.2 on my 164LX. You need recent SMS, supported SCSI (or a QLogic 1040) and a supported video card. I've never run NT on mine. Linux does pretty well; NetBSD and FreeBSD run better. Doc From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Apr 27 16:41:33 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 22:41:33 +0100 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <44513289.3050500@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On 27/4/06 22:07, "Doc Shipley" wrote: > Witchy wrote: >>> From what I remember the LX164 was supposed to be a screamin' NT >> workstation for CAD style apps. >> >>> From the OpenVMS FAQ: >> >> " OpenVMS Alpha is not supported on the AlphaPC 164LX and >> 164SX series, though there are folks that have gotten >> certain of the LX series to load SRM and bootstrap >> OpenVMS. (The Aspen Durango II variant, specifically.) >> >> One problem has been generally reported: ATA (IDE) >> bootstraps will fail; SCSI storage and a SCSI CD-ROM >> device is required." >> > > Well, be that as it may, I've installed and run VMS v7.2 on my 164LX. > You need recent SMS, supported SCSI (or a QLogic 1040) and a supported > video card. > > I've never run NT on mine. Linux does pretty well; NetBSD and > FreeBSD run better. Similarly VMS isn't supported on the Multia but it works. Talking about IDE reminds me I'm picking up a DS10 and AlphaServer 800 tomorrow; I had to be re-educated on the Alphas recently (hoops HP require us to jump through at work) and I'd forgotten that the DS10 was designed to be an IDE system from the ground up. Seems odd that every single DS10 I worked on back in the day and every single DS10 that comes through our workshop now has a KZPBA SCSI adapter in the 32-bit slot and SCSI drives.....IDE only does the CD. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Apr 27 17:02:29 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 15:02:29 -0700 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <200604271347520485.A55E8681@10.0.0.252> References: <445041DE.2020305@gmail.com> <007001c66a20$4bd0a320$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44510686.8010903@gmail.com> <200604271122170397.A4D93D68@10.0.0.252> <44510EBE.7020101@gmail.com> <200604271347520485.A55E8681@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44513F75.40302@msm.umr.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 4/27/2006 at 2:34 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > >>But that machine was beautiful in a way different from an S/360. And >>there's definitely charm to having an entire building's worth of >>S/370/168 on raised floor with all of its racks lined up perfectly and >>all of its tapes singing. >> >> I visited McAuto in the day, 1972, when they had Dual 168's and about 20 or so 158's on the top floor, Dasd on the second floor, and the basement full of printers and 360/40's. It was not that noisy, but definitely busy. They had the stick man walking the dog program running on the console lights of one of the 168's. Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 27 17:22:26 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 15:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <44513F75.40302@msm.umr.edu> References: <445041DE.2020305@gmail.com> <007001c66a20$4bd0a320$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44510686.8010903@gmail.com> <200604271122170397.A4D93D68@10.0.0.252> <44510EBE.7020101@gmail.com> <200604271347520485.A55E8681@10.0.0.252> <44513F75.40302@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20060427152137.E78612@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, jim stephens wrote: > I visited McAuto in the day, 1972, when they had Dual 168's and about 20 > or so 158's on the > top floor, Dasd on the second floor, and the basement full of printers > and 360/40's. It was > not that noisy, but definitely busy. They had the stick man walking the > dog program running > on the console lights of one of the 168's. Would that be too low a resolution to qualify for "most unusual graphic display"? From fryers at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 17:25:22 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 23:25:22 +0100 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: References: <20060426221033.PLOY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060427134236.CZJV8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: All, On 4/27/06, Simon Fryer wrote: [chomp] > I have a no name PCI SCSI card with a NCR chipset. I'll be able to > give you more details when I get home and am in front of my machine. A quick transcription from /var/adm/messages in Tru64 V5.1 running on my 164SX; vmunix: psiop_pci_initialize: Warning - unsupported 53c875 scsi chip vmunix: Loading SIOP: script c0004000, reg 84072000, data 4133c000 vmunix: scsi2 at psiop0 slot 0 rad 0 Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 27 17:30:02 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 15:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <4450F010.2080001@DakotaCom.Net> References: <20060420113022.SCGY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060427124040.CAFW8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <4450F010.2080001@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <20060427152705.F78612@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, Don Y wrote: > What's the merit of arguing OCTAL vs. HEX? You have a tool > that works and frees you from having to deal with bit twiddling. "frees you from having to deal with bit twiddling"???? ^^^^^ Isn't that WHY we do it???? That's like the sales pitch from the guy who wanted us to outsource our software development, marketing, and in-house IT. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 27 17:45:26 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 23:45:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 interrupts In-Reply-To: <00f701c66a2a$2c86cbc0$6500a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Apr 27, 6 01:41:18 pm Message-ID: > > I'm getting a little time to go back and work on my 11/45 project... > > Tony wrote... > >> So, I would propose the following tests : > >> > >> 1) Make sure you can read/write all bits from external memort. Just write > >> 1, 2, 4 ,8, 16,.... to successive locations using the panel and examing > >> them. Jsut to eliminate a silly fault like a dead data buffer. > If there was a dead data buffer, how on earth could the machine sucessfully > boot and run xxdp+? I will try this test anyways. True enough. I'd forgotten you were running XXDP+. OK, it would appear that the data buffers (and for that matter most instructions) must be working correcrtly. > >> 3) If possible, try some other interrupting device. An obvious one is the > >> console receiver. Wirre a program to : Load all the vectors with .+2, > >> HALT > >> as you did for the line time clock test that's failing.; Read the > >> Console > >> Rx data register to clear the data received bit (if necessary); then > >> enable the receiver interrupt; and go into an endless loop. Then you > >> press > >> a key on the conosle. The processor should halt, but _where_ does it > >> halt. If 4, then it appears the processor is ignoring all vectors. > I think I see what you're saying. After I try the first two tests, I will > need some clarification on this and post again :) Let me explain ; We know that one particular device (the Line Time Clock) is nut interrupting correctly -- in particular the vector is being treated as 0 (it's halting with 4 in the PC, IIRC). You've (ugh!) swapped out the DL11-W board, so it would appear it's not a fault with that particular device, but what I want to see is if another interrupt has its vector treated as 0 too. The easiest device to try (and one I know you have) is the receiver interrupt from your console port). This will generate an interrupt if a character has been received from, the console. So, what I am suggesting is : 1) Set all the vectors so that they contain .+2, HALT. That is, so when the 11/45 fetches a particular vector, the PC gets loaded with the address of the second word of that vector, which is actually a halt instruction. The machine should therefore halt with the PC containing the address of the first word of the next vector (as it did for the Line time clock test -- it halted at 4, which is the address of the first word of the next vector after 0, if you see what I mean) 2) Clear any received chracters from the console port. That way it's not going to generate an interrupt. yet 3) Enable interrupts on on the console port receiver 4) Loop endlessely 5) You press a key on the console terminal .That sends a character to the console port, which then generates a receiver interrupt. The machine _should_ then halt, since all vectors effectively point to halt instructions (see (1)). What interests me is _where_ it halts. I will guess the PC will contain 4 (that is, it's totally ignored the vector again), but I don't want to assume anything. -tony From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Apr 27 18:42:54 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:42:54 -0700 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <20060427152137.E78612@shell.lmi.net> References: <445041DE.2020305@gmail.com> <007001c66a20$4bd0a320$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44510686.8010903@gmail.com> <200604271122170397.A4D93D68@10.0.0.252> <44510EBE.7020101@gmail.com> <200604271347520485.A55E8681@10.0.0.252> <44513F75.40302@msm.umr.edu> <20060427152137.E78612@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <445156FE.3020003@msm.umr.edu> Fred Cisin wrote: > >> They had the stick man walking the dog program running >>on the console lights of one of the 168's. >> >> > >Would that be too low a resolution to qualify for "most unusual graphic >display"? > > > > There was also an idle loop for the CDC 6800 (or 6700) that put a cdc "C" up in the front panel lights while idle. I saw a 6 way system at a company called DCC in Memphis Tn, and it was amazing to see all the boxes periodically go idle and see the "C" appear and then flicker out to a dull glow, then suddenly appear again. The power bill for the front panels was a significant amount. I imagine that the 168 was the most expensive, but I'd have to say the CDC OS (whatever it was) having the "C" integrated into its idle loop was better than the 168 with a special program to do the stick man. Also on the 168, you had to dial up all the right registers to get the display, on the CDC front panel, you always got it. IIRC on the cdc it probably was on 10 rows of lights. the 168 had more lights across more rows for a larger display. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 27 18:49:25 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:49:25 -0700 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <44513F75.40302@msm.umr.edu> References: <445041DE.2020305@gmail.com> <007001c66a20$4bd0a320$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44510686.8010903@gmail.com> <200604271122170397.A4D93D68@10.0.0.252> <44510EBE.7020101@gmail.com> <200604271347520485.A55E8681@10.0.0.252> <44513F75.40302@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200604271649250151.A604BB61@10.0.0.252> On 4/27/2006 at 3:02 PM jim stephens wrote: >It was not that noisy, but definitely busy. They had the stick man walking the >dog program running on the console lights of one of the 168's. Noise is funny stuff. I remember at CDC, many people complained about the noise in the machine room. Eventually, they brought in a guy with a sound meter who said that the noise wasn't terrible--about 83 dB, measured, I think at 1000 Hz. Now, if this was a typewriter generating that 83 dB, I probably wouldn't have had a problem. But this was "white" noise--the collective noise of the tape drive vacuum pumps, all of the forced-air cooling, etc. The machines themselves were very quiet--they were cooled with a chilled-water heat exchanger, so there was no forced-air noise. The line printers were pretty well insulated, too. The card readers were loud, but they didn't run all of the time--and no one used the card punch. But put in 8 hours in a room full of white noise, and you find yourself getting jittery and irritable. I found that doing my serious thinking oustide of the machine room was very effective. The big problem was that some idiot would drift by and see an unattended machine and try to run his "little job", thereby screwing up your debugging efforts. Signs threatening bodily harm if were very useful when placed on what looked to be an idle system... To this day, I can't stand a PC with a fan that's much louder than barely audible. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 27 18:52:23 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 17:52:23 -0600 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 27 Apr 2006 15:02:29 -0700. <44513F75.40302@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: In article <44513F75.40302 at msm.umr.edu>, jim stephens writes: > [...] They had the stick man walking the > dog program running > on the console lights of one of the 168's. I'd love to see a video of this if anyone can make it happen or has one that they could digitize! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ken at seefried.com Thu Apr 27 19:20:24 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 20:20:24 -0400 Subject: ISO: SGI VW320 parts In-Reply-To: <200604272253.k3RMqp10069998@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604272253.k3RMqp10069998@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20060428002024.30180.qmail@seefried.com> I'm totally unfamiliar with the VW320 (which means this is undoubtedly useless advice), but at least some of the SGI Visual Workstations were secretly Tyan Thunder 2500 (aka S1867) based, and could be flashed to a far more forgiving Tyan BIOS. Perhaps there's a similar sheep in wolves clothing here? From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Thu Apr 27 19:33:19 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 17:33:19 -0700 Subject: 8080 Assembler-Text Editor (ATE) In-Reply-To: <20060427152705.F78612@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060420113022.SCGY8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <20060427124040.CAFW8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> <4450F010.2080001@DakotaCom.Net> <20060427152705.F78612@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <445162CF.60003@DakotaCom.Net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, Don Y wrote: >> What's the merit of arguing OCTAL vs. HEX? You have a tool >> that works and frees you from having to deal with bit twiddling. > > "frees you from having to deal with bit twiddling"???? > ^^^^^ > Isn't that WHY we do it???? Depends on whether or not you're the one paying the bills! :> > That's like the sales pitch from the guy who wanted us to outsource our > software development, marketing, and in-house IT. Well, the MARKETING can almost always be outsourced... to some other group that knows equally little about your market as the current group! :-) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 27 19:41:27 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 17:41:27 -0700 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <445156FE.3020003@msm.umr.edu> References: <445041DE.2020305@gmail.com> <007001c66a20$4bd0a320$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44510686.8010903@gmail.com> <200604271122170397.A4D93D68@10.0.0.252> <44510EBE.7020101@gmail.com> <200604271347520485.A55E8681@10.0.0.252> <44513F75.40302@msm.umr.edu> <20060427152137.E78612@shell.lmi.net> <445156FE.3020003@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200604271741270196.A6345E42@10.0.0.252> On 4/27/2006 at 4:42 PM jim stephens wrote: >There was also an idle loop for the CDC 6800 (or 6700) that put a cdc >"C" up in the front panel lights while idle. Might you be thinking of a 3800? The 6000 series didn't have no blinkenlights whatever (at least none that you could see without opening the system up). Heck, without the power indicator on the tape drives, if there was no display up, there was no easy way to tell if the system was even powered up. Actually, reading rather mundane things like the program counter after the system crashed required a friendly CE with a 'scope. Blinkenlights were SO quaint.... Cheers, Chuck From james.rice at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 19:50:42 2006 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 19:50:42 -0500 Subject: ISO: SGI VW320 parts In-Reply-To: <20060428002024.30180.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200604272253.k3RMqp10069998@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20060428002024.30180.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: The Sgi VW320 and it's quad processor cousin the VW540 has no BIOS. It uses a real Unix style PROM and a small program called ARCLDR.EXE to enable Windows to boot. I've used Tyan Thunder boards and the 320/540 is no where close to a standard Tyan board. On 4/27/06, Ken Seefried wrote: > I'm totally unfamiliar with the VW320 (which means this is undoubtedly > useless advice), but at least some of the SGI Visual Workstations were > secretly Tyan Thunder 2500 (aka S1867) based, and could be flashed to a far > more forgiving Tyan BIOS. Perhaps there's a similar sheep in wolves > clothing here? > -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers www.blackcube.org/personal/index.html - Personal web page From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Apr 27 20:19:15 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 18:19:15 -0700 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <200604271741270196.A6345E42@10.0.0.252> References: <445041DE.2020305@gmail.com> <007001c66a20$4bd0a320$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44510686.8010903@gmail.com> <200604271122170397.A4D93D68@10.0.0.252> <44510EBE.7020101@gmail.com> <200604271347520485.A55E8681@10.0.0.252> <44513F75.40302@msm.umr.edu> <20060427152137.E78612@shell.lmi.net> <445156FE.3020003@msm.umr.edu> <200604271741270196.A6345E42@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44516D93.9080407@msm.umr.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 4/27/2006 at 4:42 PM jim stephens wrote: > > > >>There was also an idle loop for the CDC 6800 (or 6700) that put a cdc >>"C" up in the front panel lights while idle. >> >> > >Might you be thinking of a 3800? > got it wrong, it was the burroughs "B" on the B 6700 mainframe. The 6700 was replaced by a Multics system at the site. It was only 30 years ago this year. I must be getting old or something. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 27 20:45:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 18:45:40 -0700 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <44516D93.9080407@msm.umr.edu> References: <445041DE.2020305@gmail.com> <007001c66a20$4bd0a320$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44510686.8010903@gmail.com> <200604271122170397.A4D93D68@10.0.0.252> <44510EBE.7020101@gmail.com> <200604271347520485.A55E8681@10.0.0.252> <44513F75.40302@msm.umr.edu> <20060427152137.E78612@shell.lmi.net> <445156FE.3020003@msm.umr.edu> <200604271741270196.A6345E42@10.0.0.252> <44516D93.9080407@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200604271845400950.A66F2B3C@10.0.0.252> On 4/27/2006 at 6:19 PM jim stephens wrote: >got it wrong, it was the burroughs "B" on the B 6700 mainframe. The >6700 was replaced by a Multics system at the site. After having the "we don't need no stinkin' blinkenlights" culture at CDC, I visited a friend who'd taken a job with Honeywell at the old GE plant in Phoenix. I recall seeing a brand-new mainframe with an operator's console with what looked like Nixie bar-graph displays on it (in addition to blinkenlights). Talk about sensory overload! I think I also saw a couple of old GE 635 systems there--I recall the "thousand operations per second" analog meters on the console--I thought that was useless, but very cool. OTOH, when the CDC 6000's went idle, the CE's would just leave up the "rolling eyeballs" program. Has anyone ever ported the old CDC "bat" baseball program to a simulator on a Peecee? I wasted thousands of dollars of company time with that one... Cheers, Chuck From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 20:49:32 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 18:49:32 -0700 Subject: More info on IBM SP-2 Parallel super computer for rescue at Uof W, Seattle, May 6th Message-ID: http://www.washington.edu/admin/surplus/may2006catalog.html Catalog info out. It is item number 1 IBM SP2 (7 NODES) MAINFRAME COMPUTER WHICH INCLUDES: Frame has enhanced HPS Switch, 1 wide node, dual processor, 1GB memory; 2 thin nodes, each with four processors, 1GB memory; 2 thin nodes, each with four processors, 2GB memory; 2 thin nodes, each with four processors, 4GB memory; Each node has 2-9.1GB SCSI disks, 14 disks total, 127.4GB total capacity Going to be an interesting sale. I used to go to this regularly 10 years ago. I see they have online bidding now. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Apr 27 21:03:31 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 22:03:31 -0400 Subject: NetCommanders (was:anyone have a terminal server?) Message-ID: <01C66A46.8E993CA0@MSE_D03> -------------Original Message: From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: anyone have a terminal server? >Mine are certainly soft-configured. There are, IIRC, no internal DIP >switches at all. And IIRC, sending it some control codes (it _MAY_ be >^T^T) gets you some kind of prompt, from which you can configure the port >setings, logcially conenct ports together, etc. >I've figured out enough to make the PSU brick for it (just a transformer >+ fuses), and that sort of thing. I was wondering if there's anything >that's not obvious... >-tony -----------------Reply: Hmm, they sure sound different from what I've got here; are they made by Digital Products Inc.? Any idea when? These units all have internal power supplies. FWIW, access to the configuration menu is ~~M, but you get a full screen menu, not just a prompt. mike From dave at mitton.com Thu Apr 27 21:32:51 2006 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 22:32:51 -0400 Subject: New of Enterasys death is exagerated.... In-Reply-To: <200604261145.k3QBjcxE050051@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604261145.k3QBjcxE050051@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060427222502.03e06990@getmail.mitton.com> On 4/26/2006 07:45 AM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 20:49:48 +0100 >From: >Subject: RE: anyone have a terminal server? - Xyplex, Xylogics, and > DEC history > >David Mitton wrote: > > > The former DEC terminal server line was spun off to Cabletron, and the > > remains live in Enterasys. > >The DEC terminal servers did indeed go to Cabletron (as did all >of NPB iirc). When Cabletron split up, the terminal servers >ended up in DNPG. I've lost track of them now, but a few years >ago their "legacy" terminal servers line had been sent off >somewhere else. > >FWIW: Enterasys are no more, having been bought up by some >management company or other and Riverstone (the other Cabletron >spinoff) were sold on the block to Lucent (who almost immediately >afterwards seem set to vanish into Alcatel). > >Antonio > >-- > >Antonio carlini >arcarlini at iee.org Antonio, Enterasys is still quite alive. http://www.enterasys.com They recently moved from NH to near (or in) the old Andover plant. I'm still in touch with Dave Nelson, who is current co-chair of the IETF RADIUS Extentions Working Group. Dave worked on DECservers while in LKG. Looks like they are using the RoamAbout(r) name for their wireless stuff. Dave. From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Apr 27 23:11:57 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 23:11:57 -0500 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <44513289.3050500@mdrconsult.com> References: <29328.135.196.233.27.1146150511.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20060428031309.OMXN8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Continuing to play with the Alpha system (I've never used an Alpha before - so please excuse my ignorance of some of the stuff I'm not aware of is basic). Not having a suitable SCSI controller, I installed an IDE hard drive and CD-ROM. The system recognizes both - it lets me partition and format the hard drive from within the AlphaBIOS menus. I have a WinNT4 CD with the Alpha release on it, and the "install Windows NT" option does launch the setup from the CD OK. Shortly into the setup, it asks what kind of system I have, none of the options are 164LX, and I don't have a "disk provided by the manufacturer" for the "Other" option. I tried the various options provided, hoping one might be close enough to "limp along", however in all cases it crashes a few steps later (while "Loading CD-ROM filesystem") - in one case it gets a STOP/ Panic event. Are the files needed for the 164LX available on the net somewhere? So far no-one has commented on the "PROTO" designation that is printed on the CPU - I also noticed that there is a sticker on the back of the system which reads "Digital Semiconductor Alpha Prototype". Could the CPU be a prototype of some kind (as far as I can tell, the board is as someone put it "bog standard"). I did find a 164LX Mainboard Technical manual which seems to exactly match this board - Looking at the jumper configuration, I realized that the system when I received it had been configured for 600Mhz - so I reset the clock speed, and it runs fine, reporting 600Mhz in the startup screen. Perhaps this is a very early version of the 600Mhz CPU? Turns out the only jumper that was "wrong" when I got it was a jumper which is defined as "Select failsafe boot mode" - elsewhere in the manual it mentions this jumper as "diagnostic monitor". When the jumper is ON (not the standard position), the board beeps 1, 2, 3 ( beep pause beep beep pause beep beep beep ) - When I took it off, the board boots up normally ( AlphaBIOS ). - Any info on the "failsave boot" or "diagnostic monitor" functions available? (the technical manual just refers you to some WinNT documentation). Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Apr 27 22:36:07 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 23:36:07 -0400 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <44516D93.9080407@msm.umr.edu> References: <200604271741270196.A6345E42@10.0.0.252> <44516D93.9080407@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200604272336.07688.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 27 April 2006 09:19 pm, jim stephens wrote: > It was only 30 years ago this year. I must be getting old or something. Nah... Dunno about you but I'm not gonna have any of that. But yeah, sometimes I forget, or maybe mix things up a bit, or stuff like that. Cluttered! That's what it is, my mind is too cluttered! Yeah, that's the ticket... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Apr 27 23:19:33 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 00:19:33 -0400 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <20060428031309.OMXN8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <29328.135.196.233.27.1146150511.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <20060428031309.OMXN8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <445197D5.2010107@mdrconsult.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Continuing to play with the Alpha system (I've never used an Alpha > before - so please excuse my ignorance of some of the stuff I'm > not aware of is basic). > Shortly into the setup, it asks what kind of system I have, none > of the options are 164LX, and I don't have a "disk provided by > the manufacturer" for the "Other" option. I tried the various > options provided, hoping one might be close enough to "limp > along", however in all cases it crashes a few steps later (while > "Loading CD-ROM filesystem") - in one case it gets a STOP/ > Panic event. > > Are the files needed for the 164LX available on the net somewhere? Yup. :) http://ftp.digital.com/pub/Digital/info/semiconductor/alpha/dsc-software-alpha.html Firmware updates, motherboard fab docs including parts list and Gerber files, NT drivers, and NT4/NT3.51 HAL sets. I have later firmware and HALs than that page lists, though: http://www.docsbox.net/abLXSXv570.zip contains both AlphaBIOS and SRM roms. and http://www.docsbox.net/HALrevG.zip Let me know when you have them downloaded. I'm sure they're still encumbered.... By the way, that box is half-flash firmware. That is, you can run AlphaBIOS or SRM, but not both. You have to reflash the firmware or load it from floppy to switch. > Turns out the only jumper that was "wrong" when I got it was a jumper > which is defined as "Select failsafe boot mode" - elsewhere in the > manual it mentions this jumper as "diagnostic monitor". > > When the jumper is ON (not the standard position), the board beeps > 1, 2, 3 ( beep pause beep beep pause beep beep beep ) - When I > took it off, the board boots up normally ( AlphaBIOS ). - Any info on > the "failsave boot" or "diagnostic monitor" functions available? (the > technical manual just refers you to some WinNT documentation). I may be mistaken, but ISTR that the failsafe jumper forces the firmware load from floppy. That's from really hazy memory, though. Doc From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Apr 27 23:54:50 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 23:54:50 -0500 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <200604271649250151.A604BB61@10.0.0.252> References: <445041DE.2020305@gmail.com> <007001c66a20$4bd0a320$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44510686.8010903@gmail.com> <200604271122170397.A4D93D68@10.0.0.252> <44510EBE.7020101@gmail.com> <200604271347520485.A55E8681@10.0.0.252> <44513F75.40302@msm.umr.edu> <200604271649250151.A604BB61@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4451A01A.5070602@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > But put in 8 hours in a room full of white noise, and you find yourself > getting jittery and irritable. Or developing temporary schizophrenia. I had to work 36 straight hours in such a room once, and I was in my 20s and had stayed up for 36+ hours many times before without a problem... but after 36 hours in the room (was doing a massive upgrade), I kid you not I started to hear voices. First whispers, then vocal banter (all gibberish, nothing like "redrum" or anything). Adrenaline through the roof. That's when I called my boss and told her the deadline would have to slip 8+ hours while I slept and calmed down. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 28 01:43:02 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 23:43:02 -0700 Subject: Zemu In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816CC@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816CC@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: > Hi Zane, > >here is the updated zipped RL02 disk container. >It has Zemu 1.10 just released by Johnny. >I changed the hex fields into octal fields ... > >You might first try the earlier sent zip, and then >this new one, to see a possible difference. >If you want a zip file with the original Zemu 1.10 >release from Johnny (without my hex->octal adjustment) >just ask, and I'll zip it for you. OK, here are my quick and dirty results from RT-11 5.7... ?LINK-W-Undefined globals: $SAVVR PICDAT ERPIC PICTBL DRWPIC INTVER .SAVR1 GAMINI I've added these to the end of ZRT.MAC with the other three undefined routines. The resulting file runs on both 5.7 and 5.4, but I can't figure out where my infocom data files are (which probably says something about how badly I need to backup my PDP-11). It's to late at night now to be booting the PDP-11 up to get them. (Henk, I'll email you the binary tonight.) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Apr 28 02:29:05 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 08:29:05 +0100 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <445197D5.2010107@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On 28/4/06 05:19, "Doc Shipley" wrote: >> took it off, the board boots up normally ( AlphaBIOS ). - Any info on >> the "failsave boot" or "diagnostic monitor" functions available? (the >> technical manual just refers you to some WinNT documentation). > > I may be mistaken, but ISTR that the failsafe jumper forces the > firmware load from floppy. That's from really hazy memory, though. Correct, it's a last resort in the event of a corrupt SROM. It boots to a minimal console that's enough to let you reload the relevant console from CD. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Apr 28 07:46:05 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 08:46:05 -0400 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <200604271347520485.A55E8681@10.0.0.252> References: <445041DE.2020305@gmail.com> <007001c66a20$4bd0a320$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44510686.8010903@gmail.com> <200604271122170397.A4D93D68@10.0.0.252> <44510EBE.7020101@gmail.com> <200604271347520485.A55E8681@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <44520E8D.2040806@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> But that machine was beautiful in a way different from an S/360. And >> there's definitely charm to having an entire building's worth of >> S/370/168 on raised floor with all of its racks lined up perfectly and >> all of its tapes singing. > > ...and earplugs in your ears! :) Are you kidding? The noise is half the fun! 8-) Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Apr 28 07:49:42 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 08:49:42 -0400 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <20060427152137.E78612@shell.lmi.net> References: <445041DE.2020305@gmail.com> <007001c66a20$4bd0a320$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <44510686.8010903@gmail.com> <200604271122170397.A4D93D68@10.0.0.252> <44510EBE.7020101@gmail.com> <200604271347520485.A55E8681@10.0.0.252> <44513F75.40302@msm.umr.edu> <20060427152137.E78612@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <44520F66.1080200@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 27 Apr 2006, jim stephens wrote: >> I visited McAuto in the day, 1972, when they had Dual 168's and about 20 >> or so 158's on the >> top floor, Dasd on the second floor, and the basement full of printers >> and 360/40's. It was >> not that noisy, but definitely busy. They had the stick man walking the >> dog program running >> on the console lights of one of the 168's. > > Would that be too low a resolution to qualify for "most unusual graphic > display"? It gets my vote. Although maybe the blinkenlights on a Connection Machine would be considered more "unusual". Peace... Sridhar From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Fri Apr 28 10:23:19 2006 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:23:19 +0100 Subject: 9 track drive and tapes on eBay UK Message-ID: <000401c66ad7$addd4430$655b2c0a@w2kdell> see lot 8803325888 Price (?50) looks a little on the high side but does include 26 tapes SCSI interface - almost certainly really HP tho' described as "SUN". I have bought from company before - they seemed reasonable. This (very heavy!) drive will almost certainly need manoeuvering down a flight of stairs. Parking is tight but should be possible. Andy From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Apr 28 11:37:28 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 18:37:28 +0200 Subject: Zemu References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE066816CC@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200FB@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I tried running Zemu in RT11 v5.3 in SIMH. It starts and asks for a game file. I entered ZORK1.DAT (from a zork1.zip I once downloaded). The ZORK1.DAT is 180 blocks. Zemu aborts after some 10 [ZALLOC] messages: [ZALLOC]: Insufficient memory] We didn't get memory for dynamic data. Aborting... [Entered ZEXIT] [INPEND: timer cancelled] and then I am back at the RT-11 dot prompt. Next I tried ".VBGEXE ZEMU". After a [ZINIT], three [ZALLOC] and one more [ZINIT] line, Zemu prints "ZEMU/RT X00.19" but then I return to the RT-11 prompt! The last attempt was starting VBGEXE.SAV without a program on the startline. VBGEXE asks for a program, and I entered ZEMU.SAV. Now soem 20+ [ZALLOC] lines are printed, the last lines are the following: [GETSLN: returning 24. lines] [GETSCL: returning 80. columns] [GETSTP: returning terminal type 3.] [PUTTXT: Address = 066736, count = 14. characters] <[?7l<[2J,=<[r ?MON-F-Trap to 4 101566 . So, it is getting further. The "<" is actually a small arrow. I guess these are control sequences for a VTxxx terminal? Or NNANSI.SYS stuff, as the zork1.zip file contained a zork1.dat, an .exe and a Nnansi.com file (thus PC stuff). Perhaps this ZORK.DAT file is not correct ...? Or does the ZEMU.SAV need somethignfrom the RT-11 environment? Zane has build Zemu in RT-11 V5.7, and my version is 5.3 ... - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Zane H. Healy Verzonden: vr 28-04-2006 08:43 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: RE: Zemu OK, here are my quick and dirty results from RT-11 5.7... ?LINK-W-Undefined globals: $SAVVR PICDAT ERPIC PICTBL DRWPIC INTVER .SAVR1 GAMINI I've added these to the end of ZRT.MAC with the other three undefined routines. The resulting file runs on both 5.7 and 5.4, but I can't figure out where my infocom data files are (which probably says something about how badly I need to backup my PDP-11). It's to late at night now to be booting the PDP-11 up to get them. (Henk, I'll email you the binary tonight.) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Apr 28 11:49:50 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 11:49:50 -0500 Subject: Zemu In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200FB@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: Speaking of which, does anyone know whether it would be more advantageous to run the RSX executables or the RT-11 ones in RSTS/E 9.6? > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Gooijen, Henk > Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 11:37 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Zemu > > I tried running Zemu in RT11 v5.3 in SIMH. > It starts and asks for a game file. I entered ZORK1.DAT (from a zork1.zip > I once downloaded). The ZORK1.DAT is 180 blocks. > Zemu aborts after some 10 [ZALLOC] messages: > [ZALLOC]: Insufficient memory] > We didn't get memory for dynamic data. Aborting... > [Entered ZEXIT] > [INPEND: timer cancelled] > > and then I am back at the RT-11 dot prompt. > > Next I tried ".VBGEXE ZEMU". > After a [ZINIT], three [ZALLOC] and one more [ZINIT] line, Zemu prints > "ZEMU/RT X00.19" > but then I return to the RT-11 prompt! > > The last attempt was starting VBGEXE.SAV without a program on the > startline. > VBGEXE asks for a program, and I entered ZEMU.SAV. > Now soem 20+ [ZALLOC] lines are printed, the last lines are the following: > [GETSLN: returning 24. lines] > [GETSCL: returning 80. columns] > [GETSTP: returning terminal type 3.] > [PUTTXT: Address = 066736, count = 14. characters] > <[?7l<[2J,=<[r > ?MON-F-Trap to 4 101566 > . > > So, it is getting further. The "<" is actually a small arrow. > I guess these are control sequences for a VTxxx terminal? Or NNANSI.SYS > stuff, > as the zork1.zip file contained a zork1.dat, an .exe and a Nnansi.com file > (thus PC stuff). > Perhaps this ZORK.DAT file is not correct ...? > Or does the ZEMU.SAV need somethignfrom the RT-11 environment? Zane has > build Zemu in RT-11 V5.7, and my version is 5.3 ... > > - Henk. > > > > ________________________________ > > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Zane H. Healy > Verzonden: vr 28-04-2006 08:43 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: RE: Zemu > > > > OK, here are my quick and dirty results from RT-11 5.7... > > ?LINK-W-Undefined globals: > $SAVVR > PICDAT > ERPIC > PICTBL > DRWPIC > INTVER > .SAVR1 > GAMINI > > I've added these to the end of ZRT.MAC with the other three undefined > routines. > > The resulting file runs on both 5.7 and 5.4, but I can't figure out > where my infocom data files are (which probably says something about > how badly I need to backup my PDP-11). It's to late at night now to > be booting the PDP-11 up to get them. (Henk, I'll email you the > binary tonight.) > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ > | > > > > > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the > addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or > otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. > If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for > delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified > that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is > strictly prohibited. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender > immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. > Thank you for your cooperation. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 28 12:00:58 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 10:00:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Zemu In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C200FB@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Apr 28, 2006 06:37:28 PM Message-ID: <200604281700.k3SH0wVx009472@onyx.spiritone.com> > > I tried running Zemu in RT11 v5.3 in SIMH. > It starts and asks for a game file. I entered ZORK1.DAT (from a zork1.zip > I once downloaded). The ZORK1.DAT is 180 blocks. > Zemu aborts after some 10 [ZALLOC] messages: > [ZALLOC]: Insufficient memory] > We didn't get memory for dynamic data. Aborting... > [Entered ZEXIT] > [INPEND: timer cancelled] > > and then I am back at the RT-11 dot prompt. > > Next I tried ".VBGEXE ZEMU". > After a [ZINIT], three [ZALLOC] and one more [ZINIT] line, Zemu prints > "ZEMU/RT X00.19" > but then I return to the RT-11 prompt! > > The last attempt was starting VBGEXE.SAV without a program on the startline. > VBGEXE asks for a program, and I entered ZEMU.SAV. > Now soem 20+ [ZALLOC] lines are printed, the last lines are the following: > [GETSLN: returning 24. lines] > [GETSCL: returning 80. columns] > [GETSTP: returning terminal type 3.] > [PUTTXT: Address = 066736, count = 14. characters] > <[?7l<[2J,=<[r > ?MON-F-Trap to 4 101566 > . > > So, it is getting further. The "<" is actually a small arrow. > I guess these are control sequences for a VTxxx terminal? Or NNANSI.SYS stuff, > as the zork1.zip file contained a zork1.dat, an .exe and a Nnansi.com file > (thus PC stuff). > Perhaps this ZORK.DAT file is not correct ...? > Or does the ZEMU.SAV need somethignfrom the RT-11 environment? Zane has > build Zemu in RT-11 V5.7, and my version is 5.3 ... > > - Henk. I'm guessing it's one of two things. Either it needs some of the routines that there are only stubs for, or else it doesn't like running on V5.3. I'm guessing either, or both have a pretty good chance of being the problem. I'll try to find time tonight, or sometime this weekend to test it out with the data files on V5.7. I've got ones on my PDP-11 that I know will wor.. Zane From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Fri Apr 28 12:27:59 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 10:27:59 -0700 Subject: ISO: SGI VW320 parts In-Reply-To: References: <445070D5.2050508@DakotaCom.Net> <4450F440.2040701@DakotaCom.Net> <20060427200636.1ac53d9a@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: <4452509F.6020102@DakotaCom.Net> James Rice wrote: > I remember that now. My 320 is IDE only. i don't have a SCSI card for it. > > On 4/27/06, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 12:08:16 -0500 >> "James Rice" wrote: >> >>> I think that the Adaptec card for the 320/540 had special firmware. >> IIRC the VW wants a QLogic ISP10[248]0 because they are supported by the >> main board firmware or somthing like this. IIRC, the board's "BIOS" (firmware) announced itself (i.e. a banner typical of most adaptec controllers on bootstrap) and then just hung -- as if the controller was probing the SCSI bus and waiting for replies from (nonexistent) devices on that bus. So, it looks like the VW's firmware at least transfers control *to* the card's BIOS to some extent. But, perhaps doesn't have the right framework in place for the card and it to coordinate their activities? I don't care if I can't *boot* from a SCSI device. But, I would like for the bootstrap PROCESS to continue and let Windows decide to recognize the card or not... I.e. I could understand if the VW's firmware had something in it's PCI enumeration algorithm that just refused to talk to anything that it didn't recognize ("support"). More to the point: does the VW place any other restrictions (aside from 3.3V which the PCI connectors mechanically "enforce") on the choice of cards that I can stuff in the box? From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 28 13:09:54 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 11:09:54 -0700 Subject: 9 track drive and tapes on eBay UK Message-ID: > SCSI interface - almost certainly really HP tho' described as "SUN". It is an 88780. Most interesting thing about it is that it will probably have the 800bpi option. From jismay at unixboxen.net Fri Apr 28 13:49:50 2006 From: jismay at unixboxen.net (J Brian Ismay) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 11:49:50 -0700 Subject: need info on an HP 8-bit scsi card In-Reply-To: <20060424040315.1352.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060424040315.1352.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <445263CE.8040502@unixboxen.net> Chris M wrote: >has an NCR 53c400 chip, an als245, and not much else. >4 dip swiches, presumably (hopefully) for setting the >id. I have plans for this bad boy... > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > > I somewhere have a similar card that originally came with an HP Scanjet IICX color scanner. I did successfully get it running under Linux and talking to a HDD and maybe a CDRom. Be aware that it most likely has NO DMA support and will be extremely slow. J Brian Ismay jismay at unixboxen.net From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Apr 28 14:38:18 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 12:38:18 -0700 Subject: 9 track drive and tapes on eBay UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44526F2A.3060801@msm.umr.edu> Al Kossow wrote: >>SCSI interface - almost certainly really HP tho' described as "SUN". >> >> > > > another good thing about this auction is that the drive is posted with a "BOT" display, which means the servos are working. a lot of these drives develop capstan or servo problems (or sensor problems) and are not functional. at least this one is posted with tapes and seems to be tested. jim From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 28 15:08:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 13:08:33 -0700 Subject: need info on an HP 8-bit scsi card In-Reply-To: <445263CE.8040502@unixboxen.net> References: <20060424040315.1352.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <445263CE.8040502@unixboxen.net> Message-ID: <200604281308330085.AA60DC5D@10.0.0.252> Chris M wrote: >has an NCR 53c400 chip, an als245, and not much else. >4 dip swiches, presumably (hopefully) for setting the >id. I have plans for this bad boy... I think you'll find those switches are for setting the I/O port and IRQ. This card pretty much matches the description of a Trantaor/Adaptec T130B (or AHA-130B) card, with the exception that the 130B also has a few more switches for setting the base address of the optional boot ROM. I suspect that the drivers for same will work. I've got the DOS driver if you need it. Cheers, Chuck From trs-80 at cableone.net Fri Apr 28 17:51:21 2006 From: trs-80 at cableone.net (Steve Phipps) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 17:51:21 -0500 Subject: Best vendor and price for Catweasel MK4? Message-ID: <002501c66b16$454414a0$8a02a8c0@steve6isvpk5vy> Hi all, Looks like a Catweasel MK4 would really come in handy. Any vendor recommendations with good pricing in the USA? Thanks, AJ From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 28 18:14:04 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Best vendor and price for Catweasel MK4? In-Reply-To: <002501c66b16$454414a0$8a02a8c0@steve6isvpk5vy> from "Steve Phipps" at Apr 28, 2006 05:51:21 PM Message-ID: <200604282314.k3SNE4Mb021526@onyx.spiritone.com> > Looks like a Catweasel MK4 would really come in handy. Any vendor recommendations with good pricing in the USA? > > Thanks, > AJ > I don't think there are many choices in the US. I've normally used Softhut for Amiga related stuff, and have always been happy with them. Zane From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Apr 28 18:17:24 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:17:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Best vendor and price for Catweasel MK4? In-Reply-To: <200604282314.k3SNE4Mb021526@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20060428231724.C3E13581E8@mail.wordstock.com> > > > Looks like a Catweasel MK4 would really come in handy. Any vendor recommendations with good pricing in the USA? > > > > Thanks, > > AJ > > > > I don't think there are many choices in the US. I've normally used Softhut > for Amiga related stuff, and have always been happy with them. > Plus they have been around since the C64 time began! :) Cheers, Bryan From cctalk at catcorner.org Fri Apr 28 18:22:58 2006 From: cctalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:22:58 -0400 Subject: Best vendor and price for Catweasel MK4? Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036097@MEOW.catcorner.org> > > > > > Looks like a Catweasel MK4 would really come in handy. > Any vendor recommendations with good pricing in the USA? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > AJ > > > > > > > I don't think there are many choices in the US. I've > normally used Softhut > > for Amiga related stuff, and have always been happy with them. > > > > Plus they have been around since the C64 time began! :) Softhut is a good bet. That's who Jens suggests too. Kelly From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Apr 28 18:25:52 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:25:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Best vendor and price for Catweasel MK4? In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036097@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <20060428232552.26E1B5822B@mail.wordstock.com> > > > > > > > > Looks like a Catweasel MK4 would really come in handy. > > Any vendor recommendations with good pricing in the USA? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > AJ > > > > > > > > > > I don't think there are many choices in the US. I've > > normally used Softhut > > > for Amiga related stuff, and have always been happy with them. > > > > > > > Plus they have been around since the C64 time began! :) > Softhut is a good bet. That's who Jens suggests too. > Hmm.. I wonder why they weren't at the Trenton Computer Festival? They are only about an hour away... Cheers, Bryan From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Fri Apr 28 19:21:43 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 17:21:43 -0700 Subject: Advice on SCSI CD-RW Message-ID: <4452B197.7080804@DakotaCom.Net> Hi, I am in the process of converting my AViiON 3000 into a "media server" (i.e. hook up all my SCSI peripherals to it so I can read and write different media in one place... instead of dragging peripherals from one machine to another). The (old, slow) CD-RW that I had installed in it appears to be dead/dying. At first, I thought it was an issue of not liking "home-recorded" CD's. But, it appears to dislike "real" CD's just as much! :-( Aside from flashing LEDs, it's hard to tell what, if anything, it is doing (fans on the AV3000 are loud). I plan to take the covers off it (the CD-RW) and verify the hub is spinning, actuator arm is moving, etc. Other than that, could be a problem in the optics (which means toss it out...) It's a Yamaha CRW4260t-NB so its no big loss (though it does have a strap to allow it to be configured for different sector sizes). Any other tricks I can try? Any suggestions for a replacement drive? (I'm not looking for anything fancy -- just would be nice to be able to burn CD's on this machine as it has most of my file archive attached to it) Thanks! --don From cctalk at catcorner.org Fri Apr 28 19:23:03 2006 From: cctalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:23:03 -0400 Subject: Replacment for INS1771 FD controller Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036098@MEOW.catcorner.org> I'm lazy tonight. Are there any pin compatible replacments for this chip? It is the SD floppy controller on my TRS-80 EI. It is very sick... Any sources for 1771 anywhere. I see lots of 197x available. Kelly From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 28 18:41:50 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 00:41:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: NetCommanders (was:anyone have a terminal server?) In-Reply-To: <01C66A46.8E993CA0@MSE_D03> from "M H Stein" at Apr 27, 6 10:03:31 pm Message-ID: > Hmm, they sure sound different from what I've got here; are they made > by Digital Products Inc.? Any idea when? The front panel has clearly printed on it 'Digital Products Inc, The SubLAN(TM) Company'. I have no obvious idea as to the date (I would guess early 80's), but I can extract it from the pile _sometime_ and read the date codes on the chips. > These units all have internal power supplies. Most of the PSU on these ones is internal. There's a pin DIN socket on the back that takes in a couple of low-voltage AC supplies from an external transformer. The rectifiers, smoothing capacitors and regulators are on the main PCB. > > FWIW, access to the configuration menu is ~~M, but you get a full screen > menu, not just a prompt. It's a long time since I did this, it might well be the same on this unit... -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 28 19:31:43 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 17:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice on SCSI CD-RW In-Reply-To: <4452B197.7080804@DakotaCom.Net> from "Don Y" at Apr 28, 2006 05:21:43 PM Message-ID: <200604290031.k3T0VhaO023297@onyx.spiritone.com> > Any other tricks I can try? Any suggestions for a replacement > drive? (I'm not looking for anything fancy -- just would be nice > to be able to burn CD's on this machine as it has most of my > file archive attached to it) If you're real lucky, you might be able to get ahold of a 16x Plextor CD-R drive (no, I'm not about to let go of mine). Otherwise your best bet is probably going to be to get a Acard EIDE-SCSI converter, as that is what most people use. People are even using them for DVD-RW drives. Zane From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Apr 28 19:44:17 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:44:17 -0400 Subject: Advice on SCSI CD-RW References: <200604290031.k3T0VhaO023297@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <009101c66b26$0c2505c0$8c5c1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 8:31 PM Subject: Re: Advice on SCSI CD-RW > > Any other tricks I can try? Any suggestions for a replacement > > drive? (I'm not looking for anything fancy -- just would be nice > > to be able to burn CD's on this machine as it has most of my > > file archive attached to it) > > If you're real lucky, you might be able to get ahold of a 16x Plextor CD-R > drive (no, I'm not about to let go of mine). Otherwise your best bet is > probably going to be to get a Acard EIDE-SCSI converter, as that is what > most people use. People are even using them for DVD-RW drives. > > Zane I have an ACARD IDE to SCSI (50 pin) converters, how well do they run for DVD recording? I purchased it for an old Mac project I never got around to and it is sitting on the shelf now. Would NERO or other common software look for a DVD recorder on the SCSI chain (very uncommon) and recognize it? From trs-80 at cableone.net Fri Apr 28 20:27:13 2006 From: trs-80 at cableone.net (Steve Phipps) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:27:13 -0500 Subject: recycledgoods.com prices? Message-ID: <00d301c66b2c$0b663ae0$8a02a8c0@steve6isvpk5vy> Check out their computer salvage prices. Wow! $200 for XT machines... $25 for 3.5" drives. All the salvage shops I've been to charge a few bucks for such items. Do some folks actually pay those kind of prices for common items? From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Apr 28 21:10:04 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:10:04 -0700 Subject: New update to GTTY... Message-ID: <200604281910.04924.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I've been using GTTY a lot recently and discovered a feature that probably should have been there from day one: A "clear screen" commmand. Expecially helpful when you're running diagnostics and are getting errors - then swaping boards and reruning the diags. Hitting the "clear screen" key (F6) is handy for cleaning up the old diagnostic messages. To update your copy to this latest version: ftp://bickleywest.com/gtty92 Cheers, Lyle Note: For those who haven't been following "GTTY" - Its purpose is to act as a "Glass TTY" for a PDP-8/x, including paper tape reader and punch. It has "pacing" implemented, and supports baud rates from 110 to 38,400. The "txt" file includes documentation on both "GTTY" and the hardware modifications for implementing "pacing" for your PDP-8/x. Source code is included. Please also note that GTTY defaults to "pacing" mode - but if invoked as "gtty -n" will turn off pacing. -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From esharpe at uswest.net Fri Apr 28 21:32:11 2006 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:32:11 -0700 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck References: Message-ID: <002201c66b35$1ead4b30$eee7e444@SONYDIGITALED> I invited them all to look at the museums website... maybe I will let them into the spares warehouse if the com to phoenix/Glendale. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ross" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 8:49 PM Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck > Speechless... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8799118065 > > !!!!!! > > Better go revising my insurance - I have more that aren't in this picture: > > http://www.corestore.org/ibmpanels.jpg > > Mike > http://www.corestore.org > > > > From esharpe at uswest.net Fri Apr 28 21:34:06 2006 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:34:06 -0700 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck References: <445041DE.2020305@gmail.com> <007001c66a20$4bd0a320$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <003501c66b35$633404b0$eee7e444@SONYDIGITALED> well the dddk guy al kosow knows.... he bid 9 grand.... ask Al? ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 10:30 AM Subject: Re: F*ck a f*cking duck >>> Speechless... >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8799118065 > >> That is wrong on *soooo* many levels. > > $1000 MaaayBe, not 10X. > Anybody checking the '''Vintage Computing Products''' listings all the way > through like I used to? Back when I used to read all the listings, 3-6 > years > ago, these would come up about once a year and sell for about $500. > My guess is that a buyer+seller collusion was possible, > or Hollywood ha$ a period computer movie in the work$. > > John A. > > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 28 21:35:27 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:35:27 -0700 Subject: Replacment for INS1771 FD controller In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036098@MEOW.catcorner.org> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036098@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <200604281935270326.ABC312AE@10.0.0.252> On 4/28/2006 at 8:23 PM Kelly Leavitt wrote: >I'm lazy tonight. Are there any pin compatible replacments for this chip? >It is the SD floppy controller on my TRS-80 EI. It is very sick... > >Any sources for 1771 anywhere. I see lots of 197x available. WD1771's weren't uncommon, so you might still be able to locate a pull. But it is a 30-year old chip... Alternatively, a WD1791/1792/1795 is very close in pinout and command set compatibility and probably could be made to work with a little tweaking. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 28 21:51:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 19:51:14 -0700 Subject: F*ck a f*cking duck In-Reply-To: <003501c66b35$633404b0$eee7e444@SONYDIGITALED> References: <445041DE.2020305@gmail.com> <007001c66a20$4bd0a320$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <003501c66b35$633404b0$eee7e444@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <200604281951140661.ABD18714@10.0.0.252> Well, the winner already had one of these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74946&item=8790303873 So I guess he needed something to put it on... Cheers, Chuck From marvin at rain.org Fri Apr 28 22:28:03 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:28:03 -0700 Subject: Dayton Hamvention Message-ID: <4452DD43.CE996A49@rain.org> I just got a package from Hamvention with my spaces ... I'll be in 3127 and 3128. My plans are still to arrive on Thursday night and show up early on Friday morning to set up and check out the other flea market sellers. I'm currently in the process of seeing what other ARDF/transmitter hunting people might be available for dinner, but no reason it can't include classic computers! So if anyone is available, let me know. It should be a lot of fun! From billdeg at degnanco.com Sat Apr 29 08:03:42 2006 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 09:03:42 -0400 Subject: Replacment for INS1771 FD cont Message-ID: Kelly, See my off list reply. The Double density controller and chip are fine, you just need a boot disk. Bill D From James at jdfogg.com Sat Apr 29 09:27:32 2006 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 10:27:32 -0400 Subject: Dasher/One Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A25662E@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Hi All, > Does anyone have info or disks for a Data General > Dasher/One PC? I have one that I'm attempting to restore. > > Thanks > Rob In a pinch I think it will boot normal DOS. It was a DOS compatible machine. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 29 09:35:36 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 15:35:36 +0100 Subject: Advice on SCSI CD-RW In-Reply-To: <200604290031.k3T0VhaO023297@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200604290031.k3T0VhaO023297@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <445379B8.30809@yahoo.co.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Any other tricks I can try? Any suggestions for a replacement >> drive? (I'm not looking for anything fancy -- just would be nice >> to be able to burn CD's on this machine as it has most of my >> file archive attached to it) > > If you're real lucky, you might be able to get ahold of a 16x Plextor CD-R > drive Hmm, I used to have a Plextor drive - I think it was only 8x though, not 16x. Still, it was a really good drive. Unfortunately mine gave up a few years ago and I've been through several HP and Yamaha units since without finding a good replacement. (I think my current 'operational' drive is a 4x Yamaha; I'm not near the machine to check) It's not that big a deal as I hardly ever use CDs for anything because they're so unreliable though... FWIW, I don't think I've *ever* seen a SCSI CD-RW drive, only CD-R. I expect that they must exist, though. cheers Jules From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Apr 29 10:18:18 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 10:18:18 -0500 Subject: Advice on SCSI CD-RW In-Reply-To: <445379B8.30809@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200604290031.k3T0VhaO023297@onyx.spiritone.com> <445379B8.30809@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <445383BA.1010004@brutman.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > FWIW, I don't think I've *ever* seen a SCSI CD-RW drive, only CD-R. I > expect that they must exist, though. Huh? Yamaha 4416S. Good classic drive. (Until my toddler got near the PC and tipped the tower over. Argh!!) Mike From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sat Apr 29 10:31:11 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 11:31:11 -0400 Subject: Advice on SCSI CD-RW In-Reply-To: <445379B8.30809@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200604290031.k3T0VhaO023297@onyx.spiritone.com> <200604290031.k3T0VhaO023297@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060429110730.03b40b40@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: >FWIW, I don't think I've *ever* seen a SCSI CD-RW drive, only CD-R. I >expect that they must exist, though. They sure do. Had the *first* one ever made[1], too. Spent 3 months on a waiting list for a $550 Ricoh 4x read, 2x Rom Burn, 2x RW burn drive, and it was SCSI; IDE couldn't keep up well enough on the original Pentiums[2] back then; and buffer underruns were *very* common with the first IDE drives. BurnProof & friends obviously didn't exist back then. ;-) Gwarsh - that sucker's awfully close to being ontopic, if it isn't already! I was debating all of the differing technologies of the time (PD/CD, etc.) and when I finally saw a drive that would take a rewritable disk without needing a special caddy, special software, special whatever, I was giddy like a schoolgirl & put one on order. IIRC, it could be jumpered for 512-byte sectors, but my memory might be faulty on that. Still have the drive, it survived a motherboard gesplosion, but then it was just too slow (Heck, the 24x drives were out by then) and insurance paid for a new machine & drive. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] At least for the consumer market, that I know of... [2] Actually, it was a 120Mhz Cyrix 6x86 overclocked to 133, so it was roughly equivalent to a 166Mhz Pentium, without MMX. -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 29 11:33:28 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 09:33:28 -0700 Subject: Dasher/One In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A25662E@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A25662E@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <200604290933280959.AEC24C86@10.0.0.252> On 4/29/2006 at 10:27 AM James Fogg wrote: >In a pinch I think it will boot normal DOS. It was a DOS compatible >machine. If this is the earliest 80c88-based DG/One, it will boot DOS, but note that the diskette drive is 720K, not 1.44MB. And there were software utilities for managing things like screen contrast that aren't part of DOS. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 29 11:37:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 09:37:03 -0700 Subject: Advice on SCSI CD-RW In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060429110730.03b40b40@mail.30below.com> References: <200604290031.k3T0VhaO023297@onyx.spiritone.com> <200604290031.k3T0VhaO023297@onyx.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060429110730.03b40b40@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200604290937030468.AEC59273@10.0.0.252> On 4/29/2006 at 11:31 AM Roger Merchberger wrote: >Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: > >>FWIW, I don't think I've *ever* seen a SCSI CD-RW drive, only CD-R. I >>expect that they must exist, though. > >They sure do. Had the *first* one ever made[1], too. Spent 3 months on a >waiting list for a $550 Ricoh 4x read, 2x Rom Burn, 2x RW burn drive, and >it was SCSI; IDE couldn't keep up well enough on the original Pentiums[2] >back then; and buffer underruns were *very* common with the first IDE >drives. BurnProof & friends obviously didn't exist back then. ;-) > >Gwarsh - that sucker's awfully close to being ontopic, if it isn't already! > >I was debating all of the differing technologies of the time (PD/CD, etc.) >and when I finally saw a drive that would take a rewritable disk without >needing a special caddy, special software, special whatever, I was giddy >like a schoolgirl & put one on order. IIRC, it could be jumpered for >512-byte sectors, but my memory might be faulty on that. > >Still have the drive, it survived a motherboard gesplosion, but then it >was >just too slow (Heck, the 24x drives were out by then) and insurance paid >for a new machine & drive. > >Laterz, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger > >[1] At least for the consumer market, that I know of... > >[2] Actually, it was a 120Mhz Cyrix 6x86 overclocked to 133, so it was >roughly equivalent to a 166Mhz Pentium, without MMX. > >-- >Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers >zmerch at 30below.com > >Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 29 11:40:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 09:40:14 -0700 Subject: Advice on SCSI CD-RW In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060429110730.03b40b40@mail.30below.com> References: <200604290031.k3T0VhaO023297@onyx.spiritone.com> <200604290031.k3T0VhaO023297@onyx.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060429110730.03b40b40@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200604290940140362.AEC87C21@10.0.0.252> Still got my Ricoh SCSI CD-R/CD-RW kicking around. In spite of its slow speed, it's still very useful when I want to load a system from CD to a laptop that has no USB or PCMCIA capabilities. I just use my Adaptec 358 parallel-to-SCSI adapter and let 'er rip. Cheers, Chuck From allain at panix.com Sat Apr 29 12:33:07 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 13:33:07 -0400 Subject: recycledgoods.com prices? References: <00d301c66b2c$0b663ae0$8a02a8c0@steve6isvpk5vy> Message-ID: <00d201c66bb2$fcc41f20$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > recycledgoods.com prices? For years I only bought manufacturers 'official' part-numbered replacements because I didn't realize the extent to which interoperability existed. Maybe 25% of corporate types still think that way and many more will want a 60-day guaranteed replacement. That, my son, is why resellers and their price-scales exist. Realize that a lot of their listings are not updated and when you call (well, not you) the buyer may get a mild rejection. A sales tool, you see? Trolling of another sence (than yours). John A. From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 29 12:37:54 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 11:37:54 -0600 Subject: recycledgoods.com prices? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 28 Apr 2006 20:27:13 -0500. <00d301c66b2c$0b663ae0$8a02a8c0@steve6isvpk5vy> Message-ID: In article <00d301c66b2c$0b663ae0$8a02a8c0 at steve6isvpk5vy>, "Steve Phipps" writes: > Check out their computer salvage prices. Wow! $200 for XT machines... = > $25 for 3.5" drives. All the salvage shops I've been to charge a few = > bucks for such items. Do some folks actually pay those kind of prices = > for common items? I'm guessing only a few people would pay such prices and that's why they have 299 floppy drives in stock. This is similar to our discussion of it_equipment_xpress on ebay. Looking at their feedback, they obviously get some sales, but most of us consider their prices to be very high. I guess there is a new one born every minute after all... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Apr 29 13:08:36 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 11:08:36 -0700 Subject: [TekScopes] FTP Site restored In-Reply-To: References: <200604290938350780.1CA2C57D@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <200604291108360334.1CF52DED@192.168.42.129> Aak... sorry. In all honesty, you're better off using a generic FTP client (such as WS_FTP) than a web browser. Doing FTP with an HTTP browser introduces additional overhead that can slow the transfer (at least that's been my experience. ftp.bluefeathertech.com is the address of interest. Happy hunting. *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 29-Apr-06 at 10:27 DaveC wrote: >>I'm pleased to report that, after a much more strenuous than >>expected upgrade (bloody power supplies!), Blue Feather's FTP >>archive has been back up since about Tuesday last week. > >What's the URL of the FTP site? > >Thanks, >Dave -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sat Apr 29 11:49:29 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 09:49:29 -0700 Subject: Advice on SCSI CD-RW In-Reply-To: <445379B8.30809@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200604290031.k3T0VhaO023297@onyx.spiritone.com> <445379B8.30809@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <44539919.8030502@DakotaCom.Net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> Any other tricks I can try? Any suggestions for a replacement >>> drive? (I'm not looking for anything fancy -- just would be nice >>> to be able to burn CD's on this machine as it has most of my >>> file archive attached to it) >> >> If you're real lucky, you might be able to get ahold of a 16x Plextor >> CD-R >> drive > > Hmm, I used to have a Plextor drive - I think it was only 8x though, not > 16x. Still, it was a really good drive. Unfortunately mine gave up a few > years ago and I've been through several HP and Yamaha units since > without finding a good replacement. (I think my current 'operational' I'd avoided Plextor originally as a friend had one that was always "packing up". > drive is a 4x Yamaha; I'm not near the machine to check) > > It's not that big a deal as I hardly ever use CDs for anything because > they're so unreliable though... They're great for moving lots of data to/from folks who live in PC-land. > FWIW, I don't think I've *ever* seen a SCSI CD-RW drive, only CD-R. I > expect that they must exist, though. Yes, the drive I was complaining about is CD-R/W. Slow, but still R/W! :> In this application, I just want writeability, not necessarily speed. I.e. if I want to pull a bunch of files (e.g., a copy of a mirror) out of my archive to send to a friend/associate. I disassembled this "bad" Yamaha drive to verify the mechanisms were at least PRETENDING to work. With the skin off, I could verify that the spindle was operational, that the pickup's sled could articulate smoothly, etc. And, magically, it started recognizing CD's! Hmmm... OK, put the skin back on. *Still* "works". Yeah, you know what comes next... reinstalled it in the AViiON and it's blind, again. :-( Next attack: pull the mounting rails off the case and see if *that* brings it back to life! From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sat Apr 29 13:41:46 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 14:41:46 -0400 Subject: Dasher/One In-Reply-To: <200604290933280959.AEC24C86@10.0.0.252> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A25662E@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200604290933280959.AEC24C86@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: Yep. I booted DOS 4 on it using 720k disks. I felt kind of stupid because I thought it had a hard drive in it. I ran the fixed disk diag's from the BIOS. It started checking the so called drive, and then would complain about unrecoverable disk errors. SO I was thinking the harddrive was bad. I went through the trouble to come up with some DOS boot bisk. Booted it up and attempted to repair the drive using an older version of Spinrite. Spinrite would come up, but only so far before locking up. So I figured my next step was to pull the drive and put it into another machine so I could repair it. Low and behold, there is no harddrive in it. Stupid BIOS. What the hell was it reporting? I didn't have floppies in it when I was running the diag's. So I have been able to boot it using floppies. So if anyone knows where to get manuals or original disks for it, please let me know. Rob On Apr 29, 2006, at 12:33 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/29/2006 at 10:27 AM James Fogg wrote: > >> In a pinch I think it will boot normal DOS. It was a DOS compatible >> machine. > > If this is the earliest 80c88-based DG/One, it will boot DOS, but > note that > the diskette drive is 720K, not 1.44MB. And there were software > utilities > for managing things like screen contrast that aren't part of DOS. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 29 14:59:39 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 12:59:39 -0700 Subject: Dasher/One In-Reply-To: References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A25662E@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200604290933280959.AEC24C86@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200604291259390164.AF7F13C0@10.0.0.252> Robert, I'm a little confused. The original DG/One didn't have a hard disk, nor an option for one--it did have an external bus connector that (ostensibly) could be connected to an external expansion box that could contain a hard disk, however. The model 1 DG/1 didn't even have a backlit LCD--I think the model 2 used EL backlighting. Do you perhaps have a later system--something like a Dasher 286? Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 28 20:55:28 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 02:55:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replacment for INS1771 FD controller In-Reply-To: <200604281935270326.ABC312AE@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 28, 6 07:35:27 pm Message-ID: > >I'm lazy tonight. Are there any pin compatible replacments for this chip? > >It is the SD floppy controller on my TRS-80 EI. It is very sick... > > > >Any sources for 1771 anywhere. I see lots of 197x available. > > WD1771's weren't uncommon, so you might still be able to locate a pull. > But it is a 30-year old chip... > > Alternatively, a WD1791/1792/1795 is very close in pinout and command set > compatibility and probably could be made to work with a little tweaking. Alas not in the TRS-80 Model 1 (which is what the first poster is talking about). The 1771 can write 4 types of data markers, later chips (179x, etc) can only do 2 of them. And you guessed it, one of the 'odd' ones is used in the Model 1 on the directory track. For that reason, the double density upgrade board for the model one includes both a 1791 and a 1771. -tony From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat Apr 29 16:53:08 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 17:53:08 -0400 Subject: Replacment for INS1771 FD controller In-Reply-To: <200604281935270326.ABC312AE@10.0.0.252> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036098@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200604281935270326.ABC312AE@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200604291753.08069.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 28 April 2006 10:35 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4/28/2006 at 8:23 PM Kelly Leavitt wrote: > >I'm lazy tonight. Are there any pin compatible replacments for this chip? > >It is the SD floppy controller on my TRS-80 EI. It is very sick... > > > >Any sources for 1771 anywhere. I see lots of 197x available. > > WD1771's weren't uncommon, so you might still be able to locate a pull. > But it is a 30-year old chip... > > Alternatively, a WD1791/1792/1795 is very close in pinout and command set > compatibility and probably could be made to work with a little tweaking. My understanding of these parts is that the 179x series had the data separator on-chip, while the 177x parts had to have a separate chip for the purpose... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 29 17:20:04 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 15:20:04 -0700 Subject: Replacment for INS1771 FD controller In-Reply-To: <200604291753.08069.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036098@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200604281935270326.ABC312AE@10.0.0.252> <200604291753.08069.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200604291520040983.AFFFA4C7@10.0.0.252> On 4/29/2006 at 5:53 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >My understanding of these parts is that the 179x series had the data >separator >on-chip, while the 177x parts had to have a separate chip for the >purpose... Not really--the 279x and the 1770/1772 had on-chip data separators (well, so did the 1771, but you didn't want to use it if you expected to function in the real world). 179x used either a 1691-type data separator, a 9216. or a user-supplied one and never made any bones about not having an on-chip one (i.e. there's no XTDS/ pin on a 179x). Back to the TRS-80. I do recall that some versions of TRSDOS used data address mark FA as a directory sector marker, but there are patches to TRSDOS that will use only the F8 mark that later systems used. See Tim Mann's page on the subject: http://www.tim-mann.org/trs80faq.html#[13] And, of course, if you only want to run CP/M on your TRS-80, it don't make no nevermind anyhow. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 29 17:51:56 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 15:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replacment for INS1771 FD controller In-Reply-To: <200604291753.08069.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036098@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200604281935270326.ABC312AE@10.0.0.252> <200604291753.08069.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <20060429154223.A82059@shell.lmi.net> > > >It is the SD floppy controller on my TRS-80 EI. It is very sick... > > >Any sources for 1771 anywhere. I see lots of 197x available. > > Alternatively, a WD1791/1792/1795 is very close in pinout and command set > > compatibility and probably could be made to work with a little tweaking. > My understanding of these parts is that the 179x series had the data separator > on-chip, while the 177x parts had to have a separate chip for the purpose... The 1771 as used in the TRS80 was FM only. It CLAIMED to have a builtin data separator, but those familiar with it consider that claim to be false, at least to the extent of making a large aftermarket for add-on data separator adapter boards. The 179x was both FM AND MFM. BUT,... the 179x could not do some of the data address marks of the 1771 that TRS-DOS required. There were enough perceived incompatabilities, that the Percom "Doubler" (and imitations thereof), instead of replacing the 1771 with a 179x plus trivial glue, put the 1771 and 179x side by side on an adapter board. Many of the imitation "Doubler" boards came with a 1771 already installed. How hard could it be to find one?? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 29 18:06:08 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 16:06:08 -0700 Subject: Replacment for INS1771 FD controller In-Reply-To: <20060429154223.A82059@shell.lmi.net> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036098@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200604281935270326.ABC312AE@10.0.0.252> <200604291753.08069.rtellason@blazenet.net> <20060429154223.A82059@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200604291606080691.B029D039@10.0.0.252> On 4/29/2006 at 3:51 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >How hard could it be to find one?? Dunno, but if you ever come across a loose WD1781, let me know. (Yes, they did make one!). Cheers, Chuck From jplist at kiwigeek.com Sat Apr 29 18:12:59 2006 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 18:12:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Lets play name that game; Who has a better memory than me? Message-ID: Answer: Darned near everyone. I'm trying to locate a game I used to play on my cousin's computer back in the early 90s. The game is most likely older than this, but I can't say how much. (The only other games on this machine was Test Drive (#1) and some horrendous ASCII golf game) The game was a top-down dungeon style game (As in the location, rather than D&D or Zork association). The game used ASCII characters to build out the 'map' that you walked through using the arrow guys to guide your character, if memory serves an *, running into monsters and treasure and the like. I -think- the dungeon view only took up a portion of the screen, perhaps the right-half only, and your view was fairly limited to a "if you were in the dungeon this would be the extent of your eye line" sort of thing. Pretty nifty. Does this sound famaliar to anyone? A name would be great, a link would be disco, and source code would be fascinating. Thanks all for your hive-mind; JP From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 29 18:18:22 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 16:18:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replacment for INS1771 FD controller In-Reply-To: <200604291520040983.AFFFA4C7@10.0.0.252> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036098@MEOW.catcorner.org> <200604281935270326.ABC312AE@10.0.0.252> <200604291753.08069.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604291520040983.AFFFA4C7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060429160610.U82059@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 29 Apr 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > address mark FA as a directory sector marker, but there are patches to > TRSDOS that will use only the F8 mark that later systems used. See Tim > Mann's page on the subject: > http://www.tim-mann.org/trs80faq.html#[13] > And, of course, if you only want to run CP/M on your TRS-80, it don't make > no nevermind anyhow. FMG? CP/M with TPA in upper memory instead of lower, Parasitic Engineering (late Howard Fullmer) ROM relocator board, Omicron ROM relocator board, . . . Parasitic Engineering and Omicron also had additional adapter boards for the FDC for 8" There were even more CP/Ms for the model 3 (Montezuma Micro, etc.) Most of them disappeared when the M4 came out. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 29 19:23:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 17:23:36 -0700 Subject: Card readers--idle curiosity Message-ID: <200604291723360576.B070BB1E@10.0.0.252> Okay, here's one for you historians. I know that many card readers used both optical as well as electrical contact technology, but did any use air pressure to sense card holes? This occurs to me because I've been listening to recordings of old piano rolls--which used a vacuum system to sense holes--and did their job remarkably well, considering that the technology's over 100 years old. Just an idle mind wanting to be amused... Cheers, Chuck From rickb at bensene.com Sat Apr 29 19:24:53 2006 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 17:24:53 -0700 Subject: Lets play name that game; Who has a better memory than me? Message-ID: Sonds like 'rogue'. Rogue originally was written for Berkeley UNIX, but ports were done to early PC's running MSDOS. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of JP Hindin Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 4:13 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Lets play name that game; Who has a better memory than me? Answer: Darned near everyone. I'm trying to locate a game I used to play on my cousin's computer back in the early 90s. The game is most likely older than this, but I can't say how much. (The only other games on this machine was Test Drive (#1) and some horrendous ASCII golf game) The game was a top-down dungeon style game (As in the location, rather than D&D or Zork association). The game used ASCII characters to build out the 'map' that you walked through using the arrow guys to guide your character, if memory serves an *, running into monsters and treasure and the like. I -think- the dungeon view only took up a portion of the screen, perhaps the right-half only, and your view was fairly limited to a "if you were in the dungeon this would be the extent of your eye line" sort of thing. Pretty nifty. Does this sound famaliar to anyone? A name would be great, a link would be disco, and source code would be fascinating. Thanks all for your hive-mind; JP From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Apr 29 19:28:11 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 20:28:11 -0400 Subject: IBM 3420 tape drive rescue Message-ID: <200604292028.11398.pat@computer-refuge.org> I've got a bit of a write up on the IBM 3420/3803 tape drive subsystem rescue I did this past week up finally. There's more info I hope to post, but this is what I've got processed so far... http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/ibm/3420/ Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Apr 29 19:47:13 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 20:47:13 -0400 Subject: IBM 3270 emulation card software? Message-ID: <200604292047.13473.pat@computer-refuge.org> So, I picked up an IBM "3270 Emulation Credit Card Adapter" off ebay, which I intend to hook to a 3174 Establishment controller. However, I'm not having much luck finding any 3270 emulator software that'll talk to it. Does anyone have any software that'll talk to the card (and emulate a 3270-style terminal) laying around which will work with this card? I'd prefer something for OS/2, DOS; I could deal with Windows 3.1 if I had to, but would prefer not if I don't need to. I intend to eventually use this in an actual S/390 (or ES/9000) setup once I get some software, and a machine working to boot it on. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jplist at kiwigeek.com Sat Apr 29 19:54:29 2006 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 19:54:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Lets play name that game; Who has a better memory than me? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Greetings Rick; This is, unfortunately, not the game I recall. Although it is possible that the game I played was a derivative of this, the style of screen layout is quite different. Nonetheless, I'm going to have a looksee at this ;) Thanks for the hint. The game I played showed you, I believe, only what you could "See" - so rooms that you were not in, or objects around corners would not be present on the screen. Also the view was very corridor-like, halls and passages rather than square looking rooms. Of course, this could be my memory distorting the facts. Thanks again; On Sat, 29 Apr 2006, Rick Bensene wrote: > Sonds like 'rogue'. Rogue originally was written for Berkeley UNIX, but > ports were done to early PC's running MSDOS. > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Web Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of JP Hindin > Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 4:13 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Lets play name that game; Who has a better memory than me? > > > Answer: Darned near everyone. > > I'm trying to locate a game I used to play on my cousin's computer back > in > the early 90s. The game is most likely older than this, but I can't say > how much. (The only other games on this machine was Test Drive (#1) and > some horrendous ASCII golf game) > > The game was a top-down dungeon style game (As in the location, rather > than D&D or Zork association). The game used ASCII characters to build > out > the 'map' that you walked through using the arrow guys to guide your > character, if memory serves an *, running into monsters and treasure and > the like. > I -think- the dungeon view only took up a portion of the screen, perhaps > the right-half only, and your view was fairly limited to a "if you were > in > the dungeon this would be the extent of your eye line" sort of thing. > Pretty nifty. > > Does this sound famaliar to anyone? A name would be great, a link would > be > disco, and source code would be fascinating. > > Thanks all for your hive-mind; > JP > > > > From allain at panix.com Sat Apr 29 20:04:33 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 21:04:33 -0400 Subject: IBM 3420 tape drive rescue References: <200604292028.11398.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <004401c66bf2$29f7c840$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/ibm/3420/ > Pat Great Job! .../compcollect/ibm/3420/3420s-cables-3803-in-truck.jpg Is this your own (photo) hacking? John A. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Apr 29 20:59:58 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 21:59:58 -0400 Subject: IBM 3420 tape drive rescue In-Reply-To: <004401c66bf2$29f7c840$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <200604292028.11398.pat@computer-refuge.org> <004401c66bf2$29f7c840$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200604292159.58426.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 29 April 2006 21:04, John Allain wrote: > > http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/ibm/3420/ > > Pat > > Great Job! Some of the pictures need to be re-taken, but I felt it was good enough to publish for now. :) > .../compcollect/ibm/3420/3420s-cables-3803-in-truck.jpg > Is this your own (photo) hacking? Yeah. And an opportunity to give The Gimp (www.gimp.org) a plug. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Apr 29 21:03:38 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 19:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lets play name that game; Who has a better memory than me? In-Reply-To: from JP Hindin at "Apr 29, 6 07:54:29 pm" Message-ID: <200604300203.k3U23cK5017818@floodgap.com> > This is, unfortunately, not the game I recall. Although it is possible > that the game I played was a derivative of this, the style of screen > layout is quite different. Nonetheless, I'm going to have a looksee at > this ;) Thanks for the hint. > > The game I played showed you, I believe, only what you could "See" - so > rooms that you were not in, or objects around corners would not be present > on the screen. Also the view was very corridor-like, halls and passages > rather than square looking rooms. Of course, this could be my memory > distorting the facts. Hmm. Kroz, perhaps? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A good pun is its own reword. ---------------------------------------------- From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sat Apr 29 21:38:45 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 22:38:45 -0400 Subject: Dasher/One In-Reply-To: <200604291259390164.AF7F13C0@10.0.0.252> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A25662E@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200604290933280959.AEC24C86@10.0.0.252> <200604291259390164.AF7F13C0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: I have a Dasher/One PC not the portable. You can check it out at: http://www.1000bit.net/scheda.asp?id=1340 Rob On Apr 29, 2006, at 3:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Robert, I'm a little confused. The original DG/One didn't have a hard > disk, nor an option for one--it did have an external bus connector > that > (ostensibly) could be connected to an external expansion box that > could > contain a hard disk, however. The model 1 DG/1 didn't even have a > backlit > LCD--I think the model 2 used EL backlighting. > > Do you perhaps have a later system--something like a Dasher 286? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From jplist at kiwigeek.com Sat Apr 29 21:42:10 2006 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 21:42:10 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Lets play name that game; Who has a better memory than me? In-Reply-To: <200604300203.k3U23cK5017818@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > > This is, unfortunately, not the game I recall. Although it is possible > > that the game I played was a derivative of this, the style of screen > > layout is quite different. Nonetheless, I'm going to have a looksee at > > this ;) Thanks for the hint. > > > > The game I played showed you, I believe, only what you could "See" - so > > rooms that you were not in, or objects around corners would not be present > > on the screen. Also the view was very corridor-like, halls and passages > > rather than square looking rooms. Of course, this could be my memory > > distorting the facts. > > Hmm. Kroz, perhaps? Alas, not. The game (or the release of it I played) was standard white on black using fairly standard ASCII codes to create the boundaries of the game such as |, /, \, and so on. I don't recall any 'extended' ASCII characters being used - but it was so long ago (and, admittedly, I was in my very early teens) I may not have known what I was looking at to properly identify it. Thanks for playing, though :) JP From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sat Apr 29 21:40:36 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 22:40:36 -0400 Subject: Lets play name that game; Who has a better memory than me? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C844DE4-8378-42B4-ADA0-349ADB8C2D3F@colourfull.com> How about Telengard? Rob On Apr 29, 2006, at 8:24 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > Sonds like 'rogue'. Rogue originally was written for Berkeley > UNIX, but > ports were done to early PC's running MSDOS. > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Web Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Apr 29 21:43:44 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 22:43:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice on SCSI CD-RW In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060429110730.03b40b40@mail.30below.com> References: <200604290031.k3T0VhaO023297@onyx.spiritone.com> <200604290031.k3T0VhaO023297@onyx.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060429110730.03b40b40@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200604300247.WAA18102@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> FWIW, I don't think I've *ever* seen a SCSI CD-RW drive, only CD-R. >> I expect that they must exist, though. I have one that claims to be such a thing. While I know it reads CDs, and writes burn-once CDs, I have never tried the CD-RW capability, but I also have no reason to doubt it. cd0 at scsibus1 targ 3 lun 0: SCSI2 5/cdrom removable The 8424 part is 8x/4x/24x (write/rewrite/read, I believe); the markings on the front make this clear. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 29 23:21:27 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 21:21:27 -0700 Subject: Dasher/One In-Reply-To: References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A25662E@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200604290933280959.AEC24C86@10.0.0.252> <200604291259390164.AF7F13C0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200604292121270599.B14A7A84@10.0.0.252> On 4/29/2006 at 10:38 PM Robert Borsuk wrote: >I have a Dasher/One PC not the portable. You can check it out at: > >http://www.1000bit.net/scheda.asp?id=1340 Ah, the Dasher "workstation". Too bad it's *not* the protable. I remember being very impressed by that one. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 30 00:36:25 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 23:36:25 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 9200T is 4105, 9201T is 4205; 4205 docs? Message-ID: OK, so I think I have figured out these "9200T" and "9201T" terminals. The 9200T has exactly the same case and internal circuits as the 4105 with a different set of ROMs from the 4105. However, as near as I can tell, the only difference in the ROMs is that the 9200T reports 9200 as the terminal type in setup. The 9201T has a slightly different enclosure and logic boards. Its setup reports the terminal type as 4205, ROM version 10 Level 9. This is obviously an enhanced ROM with what appears to be support for a larger graphics feature set, including local 2D segments. The keyboards on both are slightly different, with some of the keycaps changed in the function key row (setup and dialog are different than on the 4105) and a mouse port on the back of the keyboard. The connector is also different, an RJ type jack instead of a large 9-pin DIN style. So now I'm looking for documentation on the 4205 terminals. There's nothing on manx or bitsavers. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Apr 30 00:38:41 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 22:38:41 -0700 Subject: Olivettie Programma 101 Message-ID: <44544D61.1010407@pacbell.net> There's what appears to be a very nice Olivetti Programma 101 up on eBay, with a little over a day to go and no bids. It's in the Netherlands. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8801280590&sspagename=ADME:L:RTQ:US:1 The Programma 101 was a very advanced programmable calculator, introduced in 1965. Discrete transistors, delay-line memory, magnetic card I/O. I've exchanged a little bit of email with the seller. He says its been in storage for a long time, and a couple of rubber belts inside have turned gooey, but looks to be complete and in otherwise good shape. If you want a little bit of discrete-transistor goodness, I doubt you can find it in any smaller package than this (Ok, so a 9100A/B has both discrete transistors *and* core memory, but the Programma 101 was earlier.) I don't have any relation to the seller, I just decided that I wasn't going to bid on this, so I'd make sure the list saw the listing -- this is a very desirable machine and I figure someone, maybe one of the UK folks, would go for it. --Bill From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Apr 30 00:39:46 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 22:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dasher/One In-Reply-To: <200604292121270599.B14A7A84@10.0.0.252> from Chuck Guzis at "Apr 29, 6 09:21:27 pm" Message-ID: <200604300539.k3U5dkoB016954@floodgap.com> > >I have a Dasher/One PC not the portable. You can check it out at: > > > >http://www.1000bit.net/scheda.asp?id=1340 > > Ah, the Dasher "workstation". Too bad it's *not* the protable. I remember > being very impressed by that one. That's not the same as the Data General One, is it? I do have a DG One portable which I rather like, even for being a PC. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Eeny, Meeny, Jelly Beanie, the spirits are about to speak! -- Bullwinkle --- From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Apr 30 01:08:16 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 08:08:16 +0200 Subject: Olivettie Programma 101 In-Reply-To: <44544D61.1010407@pacbell.net> References: <44544D61.1010407@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <44545450.8050400@bluewin.ch> William Maddox wrote: > There's what appears to be a very nice Olivetti Programma 101 up on > eBay, with a little over a day to go and no bids. It's in the Netherlands. > Probably because it is a bit overpriced, at least to European standards. I won a nice Heathkit EC-1A for less than 80 USD..... On the other hand, i only got 5$ for a nice and functional Hp2748! Jos Dreesen From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Apr 30 04:40:47 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 11:40:47 +0200 Subject: Zemu In-Reply-To: <200604281700.k3SH04kJ078174@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604281700.k3SH04kJ078174@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4454861F.9070604@update.uu.se> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >>> Hi Zane, >>> >>>here is the updated zipped RL02 disk container. >>>It has Zemu 1.10 just released by Johnny. >>>I changed the hex fields into octal fields ... >>> >>>You might first try the earlier sent zip, and then >>>this new one, to see a possible difference. >>>If you want a zip file with the original Zemu 1.10 >>>release from Johnny (without my hex->octal adjustment) >>>just ask, and I'll zip it for you. > > >OK, here are my quick and dirty results from RT-11 5.7... > >?LINK-W-Undefined globals: >$SAVVR >PICDAT >ERPIC >PICTBL >DRWPIC >INTVER >.SAVR1 >GAMINI > >I've added these to the end of ZRT.MAC with the other three undefined >routines. > >The resulting file runs on both 5.7 and 5.4, but I can't figure out >where my infocom data files are (which probably says something about >how badly I need to backup my PDP-11). It's to late at night now to >be booting the PDP-11 up to get them. (Henk, I'll email you the >binary tonight.) Whoops! I totally forgot some stuff, I see... Oh well, that's what happens when things wander out of sync. Get a new copy, will you. One file was missing: ZPIC.MAC, which implements PICDAT, ERPIC, PICTBL and DRWPIC. I've also written a $SAVVR and .SAVR1, which I've put in ZRTLIB.MAC, which you'll need. INTVER is a constant, which is just the interpreter version which should be set. Place it as a global constant in ZRT.MAC. In RSX, it's currently 103 "C", which probably should be the same in RT11. So, just place a INTVER == 103 Finally, GAMINI. You can just let that one do a return. And maybe then we're in business? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Apr 30 04:50:21 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 11:50:21 +0200 Subject: Zemu In-Reply-To: <200604281700.k3SH04kJ078174@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604281700.k3SH04kJ078174@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4454885D.4030700@update.uu.se> "Gooijen, Henk" wrote: >I tried running Zemu in RT11 v5.3 in SIMH. >It starts and asks for a game file. I entered ZORK1.DAT (from a zork1.zip >I once downloaded). The ZORK1.DAT is 180 blocks. >Zemu aborts after some 10 [ZALLOC] messages: >[ZALLOC]: Insufficient memory] >We didn't get memory for dynamic data. Aborting... >[Entered ZEXIT] >[INPEND: timer cancelled] > >and then I am back at the RT-11 dot prompt. > >Next I tried ".VBGEXE ZEMU". >After a [ZINIT], three [ZALLOC] and one more [ZINIT] line, Zemu prints >"ZEMU/RT X00.19" >but then I return to the RT-11 prompt! > >The last attempt was starting VBGEXE.SAV without a program on the >startline. >VBGEXE asks for a program, and I entered ZEMU.SAV. >Now soem 20+ [ZALLOC] lines are printed, the last lines are the >following: >[GETSLN: returning 24. lines] >[GETSCL: returning 80. columns] >[GETSTP: returning terminal type 3.] >[PUTTXT: Address = 066736, count = 14. characters] ><[?7l<[2J,=<[r >?MON-F-Trap to 4 101566 >. > >So, it is getting further. The "<" is actually a small arrow. >I guess these are control sequences for a VTxxx terminal? Or NNANSI.SYS >stuff, >as the zork1.zip file contained a zork1.dat, an .exe and a Nnansi.com >file >(thus PC stuff). >Perhaps this ZORK.DAT file is not correct ...? >Or does the ZEMU.SAV need somethignfrom the RT-11 environment? Zane has >build Zemu in RT-11 V5.7, and my version is 5.3 ... Henk, looking at this, I suspect your third attempt was working fine. The problems there is probably because Zane built a version that didn't have all the needed ingredients. I've uploaded a (hopefully) working set of sources now. Let's see how that fares? And Zane, I also did the other changes I mentioned in my last mail, so maybe the now published sources built without any modifications? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Apr 30 04:52:24 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 11:52:24 +0200 Subject: Zemu In-Reply-To: <200604281700.k3SH04kJ078174@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604281700.k3SH04kJ078174@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <445488D8.1020005@update.uu.se> "Julian Wolfe" wrote: > Speaking of which, does anyone know whether it would be more advantageous to > run the RSX executables or the RT-11 ones in RSTS/E 9.6? I haven't tried, but I suspect the RSX version will not work in RSTS/E. I'm using some of the asynchronous features of RSX, which I believe the RSX emulation in RSTS/E don't cope with. You can try, but I think the RT-11 version have a better chance at working... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Apr 30 05:11:56 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 12:11:56 +0200 Subject: Zemu References: <200604281700.k3SH04kJ078174@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4454885D.4030700@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20105@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Ok, I will get to it right away, Johnny! I will see if you changed the hex numbers (back) to octal numbers :-) Can somebody explain te difference between "VBGEXE ZEMU" and "VBGEXE" and then enter on the VBGEXE prompt the file name (ZEMU.SAV) ? thanks! - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Johnny Billquist Verzonden: zo 30-04-2006 11:50 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: RE: Zemu Henk, looking at this, I suspect your third attempt was working fine. The problems there is probably because Zane built a version that didn't have all the needed ingredients. I've uploaded a (hopefully) working set of sources now. Let's see how that fares? And Zane, I also did the other changes I mentioned in my last mail, so maybe the now published sources built without any modifications? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Apr 30 05:23:26 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 12:23:26 +0200 Subject: Zemu References: <200604281700.k3SH04kJ078174@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4454885D.4030700@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20106@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi Johnny, I can not get access to ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/ ... anonymous is not accepting my e-mail addresses (gooiAToceDOTnl or henkDOTgooijenAToceDOTcom) and I do not know the guest account password ... thanks, - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Johnny Billquist Verzonden: zo 30-04-2006 11:50 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: RE: Zemu Henk, looking at this, I suspect your third attempt was working fine. The problems there is probably because Zane built a version that didn't have all the needed ingredients. I've uploaded a (hopefully) working set of sources now. Let's see how that fares? And Zane, I also did the other changes I mentioned in my last mail, so maybe the now published sources built without any modifications? Johnny This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 27 11:54:25 2006 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (a.carlini at ntlworld.com) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 17:54:25 +0100 Subject: "proto" Alpha? - Anyone know what this thing is? In-Reply-To: <20060427134236.CZJV8983.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <002701c66a1b$3ec2c190$c901a8c0@tempname> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Two are on yellow backgrounds, and are located up near the > power-supply: > > 54-25002-01 B03 That's a 164LX > > When powered up, the system reads: > AlphaBIOS 5.60-3 > > AlphaPC 164LX > Processor: Digital ALPHA 21164, 466Mhz Definitely a 164LX then :-) http://vt100.net/manx has a pointer to the 164LX tech docs (and others) on the old digital ftp site. I suspect that you will not be able to download it from there but "164lx technical manual" into google suggests a few alternatives. If all else fails I can dig up my copy (always assuming I kept a local one rather than relying on DEC to always be there :-)) Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From kossow at computerhistory.org Fri Apr 28 13:08:14 2006 From: kossow at computerhistory.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 11:08:14 -0700 Subject: 9 track drive and tapes on eBay UK Message-ID: > SCSI interface - almost certainly really HP tho' described as "SUN". It is an 88780. Most interesting thing about it is that it will probably have the 800bpi option. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 29 12:48:23 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 10:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need info on an HP 8-bit scsi card In-Reply-To: <200604281308330085.AA60DC5D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060429174823.45708.qmail@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> sure if you got it handy, send it over. Not sure the thing will handle hard drives (although one responder said he got it to, with modern s/w though). There are other *8 bit* scsi cards of course. I just liked the simplicity of this one. I'll bet there are scores of NCR chips to be found still. I believe my Ampro little board/186 (actually has a v40) uses something similar, but in a different package. I was elated to find out that the SGI Indigo 2's use the same 80 pin (SCA?) connector that these drives have that I just bought. The sleds converts 50 pin scsi to that though. Read somewhere that the I2's will work with any type of scsi drive, as long as it isn't HDV (High Differential Voltage). But could an old 8-bit scsi card (let's leave out the HP for now) work with as many types of drives? --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > >has an NCR 53c400 chip, an als245, and not much > else. > >4 dip swiches, presumably (hopefully) for setting > the > >id. I have plans for this bad boy... > > I think you'll find those switches are for setting > the I/O port and IRQ. > This card pretty much matches the description of a > Trantaor/Adaptec T130B > (or AHA-130B) card, with the exception that the 130B > also has a few more > switches for setting the base address of the > optional boot ROM. I suspect > that the drivers for same will work. I've got the > DOS driver if you need > it. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From pslysh1 at san.rr.com Sat Apr 29 15:38:38 2006 From: pslysh1 at san.rr.com (Paul Slysh) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 13:38:38 -0700 Subject: LNW Research computer Message-ID: <006c01c66bcc$e53b3180$d5ff4b42@paul00lgksoih8> Dear Sir I have an LNW 80, two TRS80's, 5" and 8" disk drives and tons of all software imaginable for these machines that I would like to sell. Please make an offer. Paul Slysh PS Associates 3047 Ducommun Ave. San Diego, CA 92122 Telephone 858 453-3810 E-mail paul at isogrid-sst.com Web site http://www.isogrid-sst.com Paul Slysh PS Associates 3047 Ducommun Ave. San Diego, CA 92122 Telephone 858 453-3810 E-mail paul at isogrid-sst.com Web site http://www.isogrid-sst.com From adamg at pobox.com Sat Apr 29 23:52:05 2006 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 00:52:05 -0400 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? Message-ID: <20060430045205.GA63436@silme.pair.com> A somewhat belated reply to this thread, as I read the list irregularly... DECserver series: Some models are LAT only (such as 100, 200, 90), some also talk TCP/IP. Note there is also a TCP capable version of the 90 called the 90TL. I believe there's an open source LAT daemon now. The 90 is a compact 8 port module that plugs into the DEChub-90 or DEChub-1. Some of these will need a MOP server to boot. Any of these should be OK to attach terminals to. IIRC, I wasn't able to associate DECserver-100 ports with services for attaching it to a console port ("reverse LAT"), only some models support that. DS550 is a big box with a PDP inside, 90 and 900 are little, 100/200/300 are in between. Lantronix: ETS series terminal servers are compact boxes with varying numbers of ports, with a DECserver-like interface. They can be used as terminal servers as well as console servers. EPS series devices are intended as print servers -- IIRC you can use as console servers, but not as terminal servers, because the commands for outgoing connections are gone. There's also the LRS series, which were intended as small RAS boxes, but will also be OK as console or terminal servers -- but the LRS2 hardware seems to have problems. The LRS1 is OK. They also have a few other product lines such as MPS. Many of their products talk both TCP and LAT, some of them are TCP-only unless you purchase a LAT license. Some of them can be used as TCP/LAT gateways. Shiva LanRover: Intended as a RAS, can also be used as a console server. 1U rackmount box with up to 8 ports. Probably not useful as a terminal server, unless you have a machine that can talk the Shiva Hose protocol and take over the ports. (It's been a while but I don't believe it wanted to give a login prompt to an attached device that doesn't act like a modem.) They also made an OEM version for IBM. TCP. Xylogics Annex: A few different products, usable as console or terminal servers. Annex 3 squeezes dozens of ports onto one box, with Centronics connectors. Livingston Portmaster: This series was popular with ISPs as a RAS, can also be used as a terminal or console server IIRC. TCP. Bridge Communications CS/100, 3Com CS/2100: Not sure what exactly these will do, but without the boot floppy or TFTP image, they won't do much useful! The software was available in several versions including one that only talked OSI. A dozen or so ports. Xyplex, Emulex, others: Various DECserver workalikes. LAN Access LANAserver: Dunno much about this except it was available with 4 and maybe 8 ports, it's 1U and it has an LCD on the front. Company was sold to Digi in '95, they sold the product to NNTI, NNTI went out of business. I think Digi might have also had their own product. Cyclades: They make some sort of nifty little box with L*n*x inside, I think it's intended as a console server. Cisco: They made a box with a bunch of serial ports, I think it was intended as a RAS but could be used as a console server and maybe a terminal server. Hmm, I know I'm forgetting something here... -- Adam From adamg at pobox.com Sun Apr 30 00:50:29 2006 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 01:50:29 -0400 Subject: anyone have a terminal server? Message-ID: <20060430055029.GA29623@silme.pair.com> Addendum to my previous message. I think you would be best off with several compact 8 to 16 port terminal servers, placed near the devices they service; that way, you just have a few long Ethernet cables and a bunch of short serial cables, rather than a bunch of long serial cables. Uhh, unless of course you want to take a big, heavy Xyplex Network 9000 off my hands (40 serial ports and 40 Ethernet ports, with room to expand), in which case a big centralized terminal server is just what you need! ;-) On the DECserver and similar machines, with a terminal plugged in, you get a prompt you can "connect foo" to connect to a LAT service, or "telnet foo" on TCP equipped machines. Some also allow "connect local port_1" to connect to a local serial port without going through a LAT service. On machines that support reverse LAT, you can associate port(s) with a service, and connect to those ports remotely. You could also connect to the command prompt with MOP and on some models with LAT, IIRC. On TCP equipped models, you could telnet in (sometimes to 23 and sometimes to a high port) and get to the command prompt (sometimes after authenticating). Also, each serial port could have a high TCP port associated with it for inbound connections. Some machines could associate an inbound TCP port with a service, for port rotaries, IIRC. Note that I am painting DECservers, ETS, MAXservers with a broad brush here; some brands may not support all features. Oh, and you could also set ports to have a dedicated service, so they don't get the CLI. And you could set up menus, too. On the Annex you get a non-DECserver-like CLI from a terminal or modem dialin, and you can telnet out from there -- or, IIRC, it can be set to automatically telnet to a given host, or set up with menus. Coming from the network, you could telnet to port 23 and get a prompt for which serial port you wanted to connect to. The ports could be arranged in rotaries and if all ports were busy you could wait for one to become available. At the prompt for the rotary name you could also ask for the CLI. Like the DECservers, you can connect directly to ports by using high TCP ports. (Some models of?) the Annex could also have multiple IP addresses, if I'm not mistaken, and could be set up so that a telnet to each address would end up at a different serial port. I believe Annexes were popular with universities, but some corporations and ISPs used them too. They later had a "Remote Annex" RAS product with built-in modems, similar to the Ascend MAX and Livingston PM3. On the LANrover, if you dial in on a modem, or if you telnet in, you get a login prompt, and once you authenticate you go to the CLI -- or a given account could be set in the account database to go straight to a specific destination. From the CLI you can telnet out, or you can connect to ports by name. There is no provision for direct telnet to a serial port by a high TCP port. -- Adam From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 30 05:47:55 2006 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (a.carlini at ntlworld.com) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 11:47:55 +0100 Subject: Lets play name that game; Who has a better memory than me? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00c701c66c43$8b081850$c901a8c0@tempname> JP Hindin wrote: > The game was a top-down dungeon style game (As in the location, > rather than D&D or Zork association). The game used ASCII characters > to build out the 'map' that you walked through using the arrow guys > to guide your character, if memory serves an *, running into monsters > and treasure and the like. I -think- the dungeon view only took up a > portion of the screen, perhaps the right-half only, and your view was > fairly limited to a "if you were in the dungeon this would be the > extent of your eye line" sort of thing. Pretty nifty. The only ones that speing to mind are: Rogue, Hack, Larn and Moria. But I don't recall anything that had a "first person view" so I'm suggesting them only because I assume I've misinterpreted what you wrote. I'm pretty sure that Moria at least had a view limited to whatever you had seen so far on a given level (and drinking the wrong potion etc. could "blind" you temporarily). Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From technobug at comcast.net Sun Apr 30 10:26:39 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 08:26:39 -0700 Subject: VAX 3500 Problems In-Reply-To: <200604300959.k3U9xbtI020333@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200604300959.k3U9xbtI020333@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Spent some time this past week trying to get a VAXStation 3500 he just got to boot. It immediately comes up with: ?64 2 08 FF 00 0000 Then dumps registers, goes through normal tests and declares that normal operation is not possible. From what I've been able to find so far is that test 64 is failing, but not what test 64 is... Does anyone know what the tests are, the meaning of the register dump and how to proceed? CRC From Gary at realtimecomp.com Sun Apr 30 10:30:24 2006 From: Gary at realtimecomp.com (Gary L. Messick) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 08:30:24 -0700 Subject: help...early Zenith multisyncer refusing to sync Message-ID: <133BC8E140C69C43A16C952F7C27A697BD17@server1.RealTime.local> > Subject: help...early Zenith multisyncer refusing to sync > > dont have the model number handy, was the first unit to sport > a flat screen (but my SX-64 has a pretty flat screen...hmmmm. > Perhaps the curvature is more pronounced on larger tubes, > making teensy weensy ones seem flatter). Plugged in a VGA > signal...ewwww. What a mess. Not likely Id simply find a > toasted cap I bet. If the display in question was a FTM-xxxx (1490 I think) it is a fixed frequency monitor. 640x480 probably 60-65Hz. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 30 11:28:25 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 09:28:25 -0700 Subject: OT: Sun Blade 1000 Message-ID: Still got about 4 years before it's ontopic, so I'll make it quick. Does the Sun Blade 1000 support "Suspend" like other Sun Workstations such as the Ultra 10 and Ultra 60 do? It's more than a little power hungry, and generates a lot of heat, so I don't want to keep it running full time. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Apr 30 12:09:22 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 12:09:22 -0500 Subject: OT: Sun Blade 1000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4454EF42.2030006@mdrconsult.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Still got about 4 years before it's ontopic, so I'll make it quick. Does > the Sun Blade 1000 support "Suspend" like other Sun Workstations such as > the Ultra 10 and Ultra 60 do? It's more than a little power hungry, and > generates a lot of heat, so I don't want to keep it running full time. I believe so, yes. The only way I know to set it is to do the "sysunconfig", but that makes you go through the whole network setup and all. There's probably a saner way. Doc From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Apr 30 12:22:23 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 10:22:23 -0700 Subject: LNW Research computer In-Reply-To: <006c01c66bcc$e53b3180$d5ff4b42@paul00lgksoih8> References: <006c01c66bcc$e53b3180$d5ff4b42@paul00lgksoih8> Message-ID: <4454F24F.2030104@msm.umr.edu> Paul Slysh wrote: >Dear Sir > >I have an LNW 80, > > the LNW80 was a garage operation of three buddies, one of which I wored with. Gene Lu was working at Microdata in 78 or 79 when their company cloned the TRS80. There was some quesiton about whether copyright extended to cover electronic expressions of information such as proms, and so at the time the Apple 2 was cloned in Taiwan, the "Pineapple" and these guys went out and did the TRS80. They were both shutdown by the courts, but did a lot of business beforehand. I don't recall when they ceased operations. Gene Lu was the founder of Advanced Logic Research, which is now part of Gateway, ususally associated with the server products that Gateway sells, though remotely now. It was dismantled when Gateway had a consolidation of operations and moved ALR from Irvine, and now exists primarily in name only. Jim From kenziem at sympatico.ca Sun Apr 30 12:25:58 2006 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 13:25:58 -0400 Subject: Lets play name that game; Who has a better memory than me? In-Reply-To: <00c701c66c43$8b081850$c901a8c0@tempname> References: <00c701c66c43$8b081850$c901a8c0@tempname> Message-ID: <200604301325.58667.kenziem@sympatico.ca> On Sunday 30 April 2006 6:47 am, a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > JP Hindin wrote: > > The game was a top-down dungeon style game (As in the location, > > rather than D&D or Zork association). The game used ASCII characters > > to build out the 'map' that you walked through using the arrow guys > > to guide your character, if memory serves an *, running into monsters > > and treasure and the like. I -think- the dungeon view only took up a > > portion of the screen, perhaps the right-half only, and your view was > > fairly limited to a "if you were in the dungeon this would be the > > extent of your eye line" sort of thing. Pretty nifty. Wizardry comes to mind, I recall the player roster was on the bottom with a view on the top right. I played Bards Tale at around the same time, but it used graphics. > The only ones that speing to mind are: Rogue, Hack, Larn and Moria. -- Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Apr 30 12:27:46 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 10:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lets play name that game; Who has a better memory than me? In-Reply-To: <00c701c66c43$8b081850$c901a8c0@tempname> from "a.carlini@ntlworld.com" at "Apr 30, 6 11:47:55 am" Message-ID: <200604301727.k3UHRkAm016450@floodgap.com> > > The game was a top-down dungeon style game (As in the location, > > rather than D&D or Zork association). The game used ASCII characters > > to build out the 'map' that you walked through using the arrow guys > > to guide your character, if memory serves an *, running into monsters > > and treasure and the like. I -think- the dungeon view only took up a > > portion of the screen, perhaps the right-half only, and your view was > > fairly limited to a "if you were in the dungeon this would be the > > extent of your eye line" sort of thing. Pretty nifty. > > The only ones that speing to mind are: Rogue, Hack, Larn and Moria. I just thought of another one -- ZZT -- but this had colour and I think it used extended characters, at least for some of the games in the series. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The earth is like a tiny grain of sand, only a lot heavier and bigger. ----- From melamy at earthlink.net Sun Apr 30 12:33:47 2006 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 10:33:47 -0700 Subject: Lets play name that game; Who has a better memory than me? In-Reply-To: <200604301727.k3UHRkAm016450@floodgap.com> References: <00c701c66c43$8b081850$c901a8c0@tempname> <200604301727.k3UHRkAm016450@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060430103254.023b2898@earthlink.net> there was another game that I need to check called Nemesis. I know it was around the same time as Rogue (I have both of them). I just need to find them and take a look. best regards, Steve Thatcher At 10:27 AM 4/30/2006, you wrote: > > > The game was a top-down dungeon style game (As in the location, > > > rather than D&D or Zork association). The game used ASCII characters > > > to build out the 'map' that you walked through using the arrow guys > > > to guide your character, if memory serves an *, running into monsters > > > and treasure and the like. I -think- the dungeon view only took up a > > > portion of the screen, perhaps the right-half only, and your view was > > > fairly limited to a "if you were in the dungeon this would be the > > > extent of your eye line" sort of thing. Pretty nifty. > > > > The only ones that speing to mind are: Rogue, Hack, Larn and Moria. > >I just thought of another one -- ZZT -- but this had colour and I think it >used extended characters, at least for some of the games in the series. > >-- >--------------------------------- personal: >http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com >-- The earth is like a tiny grain of sand, only a lot heavier and >bigger. ----- From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun Apr 30 12:44:17 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 13:44:17 -0400 Subject: Advice on SCSI CD-RW In-Reply-To: <200604300247.WAA18102@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200604290031.k3T0VhaO023297@onyx.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060429110730.03b40b40@mail.30below.com> <200604300247.WAA18102@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200604301344.17475.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Saturday 29 April 2006 10:43 pm, der Mouse wrote: > >> FWIW, I don't think I've *ever* seen a SCSI CD-RW drive, only CD-R. > >> I expect that they must exist, though. > > I have one that claims to be such a thing. While I know it reads CDs, > and writes burn-once CDs, I have never tried the CD-RW capability, but > I also have no reason to doubt it. > > cd0 at scsibus1 targ 3 lun 0: SCSI2 5/cdrom > removable > > The 8424 part is 8x/4x/24x (write/rewrite/read, I believe); the > markings on the front make this clear. Hm, you guys have prodded me into going and looking at the box I have sitting here with the 4260 in it... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Apr 30 14:34:45 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 14:34:45 Subject: Advice on SCSI CD-RW In-Reply-To: <200604301344.17475.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200604300247.WAA18102@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200604290031.k3T0VhaO023297@onyx.spiritone.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20060429110730.03b40b40@mail.30below.com> <200604300247.WAA18102@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060430143445.4797c8b8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I just took a couple of Plextor SCSI CD-RW drives out of a system if anyone wants them for postage and a little beer money. One is a Plextor PX=R4 12 Ci Plexwriter and the othe is a Plextor PS-32CSi. They both use standard caddies and one caddy is included with each one. They're both pulls and I haven't tested them but they look fine. Joe From dgy at DakotaCom.Net Sun Apr 30 13:48:08 2006 From: dgy at DakotaCom.Net (Don Y) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 11:48:08 -0700 Subject: CoCo2 Message-ID: <44550668.1090703@DakotaCom.Net> Hi, I'm (slowly) trying to wade through things here with a goal of "thinning the herd" (sigh -- unfortunately, no basements, here! :< ). I have a working CoCo2. What aspects of it should I *document* before getting rid of it? (e.g., photos, ROM images, etc.) Or, is it just not worth my time? --don From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Apr 30 13:49:53 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 11:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice on SCSI CD-RW In-Reply-To: <200604301344.17475.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at "Apr 30, 6 01:44:17 pm" Message-ID: <200604301849.k3UInrRg017138@floodgap.com> > > FWIW, I don't think I've *ever* seen a SCSI CD-RW drive, only CD-R. > > I expect that they must exist, though. > > I have one that claims to be such a thing. While I know it reads CDs, > and writes burn-once CDs, I have never tried the CD-RW capability, but > I also have no reason to doubt it. > > cd0 at scsibus1 targ 3 lun 0: SCSI2 5/cdrom > removable > > The 8424 part is 8x/4x/24x (write/rewrite/read, I believe); the > markings on the front make this clear. I have one of these as well (a very nice drive) and it does do -RW, as advertised, at 4x. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The reader this message encounters not failing to understand is cursed. ---- From allain at panix.com Sun Apr 30 14:49:18 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 15:49:18 -0400 Subject: 19" Rack History References: <200604301727.k3UHRkAm016450@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <002b01c66c8f$2bf77a80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Just dawned on me that the fundamental shape (width) of all my industrial computing is based on the 19" rack, from the earliest to the latest piece of equipment, but who originated the 19" rack? AT&T? John A. From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun Apr 30 15:03:51 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 16:03:51 -0400 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: <002b01c66c8f$2bf77a80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <200604301727.k3UHRkAm016450@floodgap.com> <002b01c66c8f$2bf77a80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200604301603.51050.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 30 April 2006 03:49 pm, John Allain wrote: > Just dawned on me that the fundamental shape (width) of all my industrial > computing is based on the 19" rack, from the earliest to the latest piece > of equipment, but who originated the 19" rack? AT&T? Good question! I'm a little curious about that too. I also remember (very vaguely) seeing some 24" rack panels and such in some catalog, ages ago, but I don't recall ever running into any hardware that used it. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From drb at msu.edu Sun Apr 30 15:20:05 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 16:20:05 -0400 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 30 Apr 2006 16:03:51 EDT.) <200604301603.51050.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200604301603.51050.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200604301727.k3UHRkAm016450@floodgap.com> <002b01c66c8f$2bf77a80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200604302020.k3UKK54L024107@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > Just dawned on me that the fundamental shape (width) of all my > > industrial computing is based on the 19" rack, from the earliest to > > the latest piece of equipment, but who originated the 19" rack? AT&T? > > Good question! I'm a little curious about that too. I also remember > (very vaguely) seeing some 24" rack panels and such in some catalog, > ages ago, but I don't recall ever running into any hardware that > used it. Bell did indeed invent the rack, as far as I know from my telco friends. And some telecom gear used or uses the wider format. In fact, some computer industry racks have both sizes of mount in them; look at the Dell racks, for example. Telcos tend to view racks as flat devices, and gear going into them is fairly shallow. If it's big, it's big up-and-down. De From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Apr 30 15:24:38 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 16:24:38 -0400 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: <200604301603.51050.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200604301727.k3UHRkAm016450@floodgap.com> <002b01c66c8f$2bf77a80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <200604301603.51050.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200604301624.38550.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 30 April 2006 16:03, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Sunday 30 April 2006 03:49 pm, John Allain wrote: > > Just dawned on me that the fundamental shape (width) of all my industrial > > computing is based on the 19" rack, from the earliest to the latest piece > > of equipment, but who originated the 19" rack? AT&T? > > Good question! I'm a little curious about that too. I also remember (very > vaguely) seeing some 24" rack panels and such in some catalog, ages ago, > but I don't recall ever running into any hardware that used it. Lots of big IBM hardware (and some other manufacturers - I think Sun's E10k systems) use the 24" rack, like my S/390 gear, and these IBM SP racks I'm working on... I can't think of anything older than S/390s that uses the 24" rack though. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 30 15:39:01 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 13:39:01 -0700 Subject: Advice on SCSI CD-RW In-Reply-To: <44539919.8030502@DakotaCom.Net> References: <200604290031.k3T0VhaO023297@onyx.spiritone.com> <445379B8.30809@yahoo.co.uk> <44539919.8030502@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: At 9:49 AM -0700 4/29/06, Don Y wrote: >I'd avoided Plextor originally as a friend had one that was >always "packing up". I've got a 32x UW-SCSI drive in my DEC PWS 433au Alpha, a 8x SCSI Caddy drive in my PDP-11/73, and that 16x SCSI CD-RW drive sitting in a expansion box with an Exabyte 8500 8mm tape drive as a floater. All Plextors, all very good drives. The only Optical drives I've ever had real issues with was my Pioneer 2x DVD-RW drive (I even had to send it back on Warranty when some plastic piece inside broke), and my original 2x SCSI CD-R drive, it wanted to periodically be greased (the 2nd or 3rd time I replaced it with the 16x Plextor). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 30 15:41:19 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 15:41:19 -0500 Subject: 19" Rack History References: <200604301727.k3UHRkAm016450@floodgap.com><002b01c66c8f$2bf77a80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <200604301603.51050.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <001801c66c96$6fc1bda0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written.... > Good question! I'm a little curious about that too. I also remember > (very > vaguely) seeing some 24" rack panels and such in some catalog, ages ago, > but I don't recall ever running into any hardware that used it. 24" racks are just as common as 19" racks, depending on your industry. 19" racks are the defacto standard in the computer industry. 24" racks are still today the defacto standard in the telco industry. There are some few occasions where 24" racks are used in the computer industry and 19" in the telco industry... but not really common. Walk in to any SWB, Pacbell, etc. phone center and you'll see mostly 24" racks for telco gear/switches. Jay West From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Apr 30 16:14:47 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 17:14:47 -0400 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: <200604301603.51050.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200604301727.k3UHRkAm016450@floodgap.com> <002b01c66c8f$2bf77a80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <200604301603.51050.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <445528C7.2020304@gmail.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Sunday 30 April 2006 03:49 pm, John Allain wrote: >> Just dawned on me that the fundamental shape (width) of all my industrial >> computing is based on the 19" rack, from the earliest to the latest piece >> of equipment, but who originated the 19" rack? AT&T? > > Good question! I'm a little curious about that too. I also remember (very > vaguely) seeing some 24" rack panels and such in some catalog, ages ago, > but I don't recall ever running into any hardware that used it. IBM has used 23" and 27" for a long time too. Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 30 16:40:48 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 14:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CoCo2 In-Reply-To: <44550668.1090703@DakotaCom.Net> References: <44550668.1090703@DakotaCom.Net> Message-ID: <20060430144018.R22252@shell.lmi.net> . . . and doctor Marty is about to get rid of his Cocos From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 30 17:40:45 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 16:40:45 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4105 Operator's Manual online Message-ID: or -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From allain at panix.com Sun Apr 30 17:47:07 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 18:47:07 -0400 Subject: 19" Rack History References: <200604301727.k3UHRkAm016450@floodgap.com><002b01c66c8f$2bf77a80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06><200604301603.51050.rtellason@blazenet.net> <001801c66c96$6fc1bda0$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <0f4f01c66ca8$02f5b340$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > 19" racks are the defacto standard in the computer industry. Beginning to sound like DEC set the 19" computing standard, perhaps just out of convenience, just picking one available width, and sticking with it, starting as early as the late 1950's John A. From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Apr 30 17:57:50 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 17:57:50 -0500 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: <002b01c66c8f$2bf77a80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <200604301727.k3UHRkAm016450@floodgap.com> <002b01c66c8f$2bf77a80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060430175451.05831528@mail> At 02:49 PM 4/30/2006, John Allain wrote: >Just dawned on me that the fundamental shape (width) of all my industrial >computing is based on the 19" rack, from the earliest to the latest piece of >equipment, but who originated the 19" rack? AT&T? Everyone else voted for telco, but I'll place a bet on the radio industry. And/or the radio industry of the military. It's a standard, isn't it? Why, just Friday I bought a surplus 19" rack, and the other rack next to it that I passed by was old enough to have the black wrinkle paint as well as a US Navy property tag. - John From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Apr 30 18:03:13 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 00:03:13 +0100 Subject: Prime computer Message-ID: <26c11a640604301603m78a182a8r21c59d24bf414070@mail.gmail.com> I won the prime computer, I paid more then I really wanted, but there you go. I was expecting it to go out of my reach though. I will pick it up sometime this week. Watch this space for info... Dan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 30 18:08:49 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 00:08:49 +0100 Subject: Prime computer In-Reply-To: <26c11a640604301603m78a182a8r21c59d24bf414070@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640604301603m78a182a8r21c59d24bf414070@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44554381.1080300@yahoo.co.uk> Dan Williams wrote: > I won the prime computer, I paid more then I really wanted, but there > you go. I was expecting it to go out of my reach though. > I will pick it up sometime this week. Watch this space for info... Good news - glad it's gone to a 'known' home! cheers Jules From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun Apr 30 18:29:46 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 19:29:46 -0400 Subject: stuff that may be available Message-ID: <200604301929.46221.rtellason@blazenet.net> A guy writes to me: "I have several, Wyse 325 and Wyse 60 terminals. ?The great majority of them work fine as many were taken straight from work stations that converted to PCs." and: "I also have Frame relay networking equipment including routers and DSU units. ?Again, mostly working units. ?I also have several componets to a large R50 AIX computer server. ?They include power supplies, hard drives, expansion cards, processor boards and many other things." He's just looking to get rid of it. I'm looking for scrap, and maybe to make a buck or three. If any of this stuff is of interest contact me offlist and we'll put something together. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Apr 30 18:47:48 2006 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 16:47:48 -0700 Subject: 19" Rack History References: <200604301727.k3UHRkAm016450@floodgap.com><002b01c66c8f$2bf77a80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <6.2.3.4.2.20060430175451.05831528@mail> Message-ID: <004e01c66cb0$7ce20930$eee7e444@SONYDIGITALED> those of us that also deal with old communications gear know the radio racks are 19 inches... even back in olden times... ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Sunday, April 30, 2006 3:57 PM Subject: Re: 19" Rack History > At 02:49 PM 4/30/2006, John Allain wrote: >>Just dawned on me that the fundamental shape (width) of all my industrial >>computing is based on the 19" rack, from the earliest to the latest piece >>of >>equipment, but who originated the 19" rack? AT&T? > > Everyone else voted for telco, but I'll place a bet on the radio industry. > And/or the radio industry of the military. It's a standard, isn't it? > Why, just Friday I bought a surplus 19" rack, and the other rack next > to it that I passed by was old enough to have the black wrinkle paint > as well as a US Navy property tag. > > - John > > > From staylor at mrynet.com Sun Apr 30 19:58:13 2006 From: staylor at mrynet.com (User Staylor) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 19:58:13 -0500 Subject: Looking for Kaypro 4/88 MSDOS 2.21 Message-ID: <200605010058.k410wDFl001745@mrynet.com> I'm in need of an MSDOS 2.21 boot diskette for some Kaypro 4/88 (CO-POWER 88 co processor) machines I've restored. I have the Kaypro diskettes to fire up the coprocessor and 512k memory add-on. The Kaypro co-processor start-up seems to be tied to MSDOS version 2.21. Any MSDOS 2.21 boot diskette will do, but perhaps the Kaypro-distributed one has additional utilities... not sure. Does anyone have a raw disk image or a teledisk image of a boot diskette I could download or be emailed? It is, of course, needed in 5.25" 360k format, but I can boot it and generate what I need worst-case. Thanks in advance, -scott From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 30 20:58:15 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 18:58:15 -0700 Subject: 2645A terminals Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8804457336 he says he has 50 more. note there doesn't appear to be any CRT mold. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 30 21:06:15 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 20:06:15 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4041 System Controller Programmer's Reference online Message-ID: -or- -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 30 21:47:22 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 21:47:22 -0500 Subject: 2645A terminals References: Message-ID: <000401c66cc9$92f9d270$6700a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Al wrote.... > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8804457336 > > he says he has 50 more. > > note there doesn't appear to be any CRT mold. It's better than that. I've been talking to him... and he has both 2645 and 2648's.... and even better still... a good number of them are NEW IN THE BOX. Even the ones that aren't new in the box look extremely nice. There's a very strong possibility of a deal to get them all for less than ebay prices.... if interested contact me off-list. But it'd have to be a deal for all of them, and I'm not close enough to pick them up :) Jay From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 30 22:28:19 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 03:28:19 +0000 Subject: 19" Rack History In-Reply-To: <200604301603.51050.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200604301727.k3UHRkAm016450@floodgap.com> <002b01c66c8f$2bf77a80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <200604301603.51050.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: On 4/30/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Sunday 30 April 2006 03:49 pm, John Allain wrote: > > ...who originated the 19" rack? AT&T? > > Good question! I'm a little curious about that too. I also remember (very > vaguely) seeing some 24" rack panels and such in some catalog, ages ago, > but I don't recall ever running into any hardware that used it. CompuServe used 24" racks for their "32-bit hosts", also dubbed "silver bullets" because they were long and narrow (two fit side-by-side on a shelf) and their enclosures were made of chrome-plated steel. A few years ago, as they were turning off these servers as fast as they could, it was possible for employees to pick up discarded 24" racks from the data centers in OH (Columbus/Upper Arlington and/or Dublin)... I don't have one, but I know several people who do. -ethan From Norman.Beamer at ropesgray.com Sun Apr 30 18:22:53 2006 From: Norman.Beamer at ropesgray.com (Beamer, Norman H.) Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 23:22:53 -0000 Subject: Free PDP Memory/BA11/Modem Manuals Message-ID: <8BCFC87B30B31B4E84301DEDCDCF3C254E395C@PAMAILCL1.ropesgray.firm> Please tell me how many bytes this memory had: Mostek Memory Systems MK8015 PDP-11 Add-In Memory